(gentle music)
- Hello, my name is Andre Ward
and I'm the Associate Vice President
of the David Rothenberg
Center for Public Policy
of The Fortune Society.
Welcome to "Both Sides of the Bars,"
a discussion-driven show
that examines the legal system
from various perspectives,
including people most impacted
by the criminal legal system.
We discuss critical questions about
how the current system works,
its intersections with social justice,
and we highlight the
efforts that are being made
to improve the lives of everyone affected.
We ask you the viewers, to spread the word
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and share your comments with us on Twitter
@thefortunesoc.
Today's show is entitled
"2019 Year in Review,
Criminal Justice Reform and Beyond."
And this is the second part of our show.
In last month's episode, in part one,
we talked about the fact
that 2019 was a year
of huge changes within the
Criminal Justice Reform Movement.
Our four guests last month,
who will join us again today,
to continue the discussion,
are executive leaders who
have been directly impacted
by these changes.
And each has thoughts
about what 2020 will bring.
Our guests today, and once
again, are Julio Medina,
founder and CEO of Exodus
Transitional Community;
DeAnna R. Hoskins, who is the president
and CEO of Just Leadership, USA;
Vivian D. Nixon, who is
the executive director
of College & Community Fellowship;
and Stanley Richards,
executive vice president
of The Fortune Society.
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome
to "Both Sides of the Bars."
Good to have you all back again!
I know it's been a brief
period since we've been back
and so I'm just so excited
to see you all back again.
I wanna get right into it, right?
'Cause there's been some
things that's been changing
since our last conversation,
and I think one of the more
pressing things that's kinda
arose within the last maybe
four to six weeks or so
since our show, was this
issue of Bail Reform.
We talked about Bail Reform before.
Its importance, why it's needed;
yet some detractors, have come, right?
As a result of Bail Reform
owing to some incidences.
So I wanna start around the conversation
around Bail Reform, what's happened in
the last few weeks or so.
And I'll start with you, Vivian.
- Sure.
I'm gonna defer to DeAnna for the details,
but the context is really
what's important to me.
So (clears throat) we've always known
that mass incarceration
in the United States
has a historical connection
to structural and systemic racism.
And so let's think about what happened
when slavery was abolished, right?
People didn't just wake up and say,
"Okay, slavery's abolished everybody,
"let's make sure everybody
has what they need and."
No, there was a fight about that, right?
There were certain people who did not want
slavery to be abolished.
And so the rollbacks came
in the form of a set of
laws called the Black Codes.
And you know people,
there were years and years
of different processes
that really replicated
the idea of slavery.
That's exactly what's
happening with Bail Reform.
Bail Reform has happened,
it has given freedom to a lot of people
who some people don't want to see free.
And those rollbacks are
a natural occurrence
because we are still
driven by the same spirit
of structural systemic
racism that drove us
to have mass incarceration
in the first place.
- And you mentioned rollbacks, Vivian.
And, DeAnna, talk to us a little bit about
like this rollbacks,
like what is that about?
- So, so what you have is,
you have the DAs and judges
who really, as Vivian said,
don't want certain individuals released.
So I wanna start where Vivian left off.
When you talk about
the history of slavery,
and you look at the
release, or oppression,
coming out in different forms.
I'll say it goes back and
changes clothes and says,
I'm a new, but I'm still
a new form of oppression.
That still resembles the past.
So when you think about Bail
Reform, think about slavery.
Where slave masters
took you from the family
and sold you on an auction block.
Bail bondsman is taking
you from the slave master,
putting you on the auction block,
selling you back to your family.
So the system still looks the same.
But here in New York what
we have is we have DAs,
we have the director of
the, commissioner of DOC,
and judges who really don't
want to see this happen.
So they're using fear-mongering tactics.
So there's been cases where
individuals have been released,
judges saying I couldn't hold
them because of the bail.
The legislation does not say no cash bail.
It incorporated the Eighth
Amendment of the Constitution
that says bail should be
compatible with my ability to pay.
So when you see judges calling the media
to actual courts in the Bronx, Manhattan,
but they're not calling
the media to the people,
to courts in Brooklyn.
So it's okay for those people to utilize
this new legislation to go free.
But certain individuals from
more impoverished communities,
they're highlighting.
And they're using fear-mongering tactics
because they do have other tools to use.
Nothing says you can't
hold them on cash bail
or you can't look at the
extenuating circumstances
of their previous history of showing up.
The one case, literally the
guy have violated probation
by even getting a charge
and the judge chose not
to hold him on a detainer
of the violation probation.
And that's just their
pushback on this Bail Reform.
And that's really what it is.
Nothing has actually
handicapped them to that extreme
if there are really
extenuating circumstances.
You just can't hold a person on bail
on a level they can't pay,
but there are other forms of bail.
The rollbacks, I think it's
important to understand,
the biggest thing about the rollbacks,
and they're actually
looking at New Jersey.
Well, what New Jersey did,
was incorporate risk-assessment tools.
Well, what we know, is
that risk-assessment tools
have been proven to be racially biased.
So what's gonna happen
is the same individuals
who we were fighting for their freedom,
are still gonna be caught up
in this system of incarceration.
And we actually, again, it
just changed its clothes,
and it looked different
and it came back out
in Bail Reform with risk assessments.
But black and brown bodies
are still gonna be detained.
- [Andre] Sure.
- [Stanley] And we have to be clear
about what we're talking about
when we talk about Bail Reform, right?
Bail Reform is about folks
who have not been convicted of
- Anything.
- Anything.
They have been charged with a crime
and we're either gonna be
upholding the principles
of this system, right?
System of you are innocent
until you're proven guilty.
That you have your day in court.
That what bail is designed to
do is to ensure your return
that you'll stand before
the judge in the court
for the, for your particular case.
If we're gonna uphold those principles,
we ought not be thinking about, like,
who gets bail and who doesn't get bail.
We should have a system that is about
assuring people come back
to court and that's it.
It's not about preventing crime.
It's not about, who gets
released and who doesn't.
'Cause we know when bail is used,
those who can afford to pay it;
and it's usually not
black and brown people,
they end up getting released.
And those who are poor end up
staying in for years on years
while they get their case adjudicated,
while they are incarcerated.
And have not been convicted of anything.
So we need to stay focused
on what Bail Reform
and bail is really about.
And making sure that we are
bringing justice to a system
that has been so unjust
for so many people.
- Right, because when you
think about injustice,
someone who may be wealthy
and is a threat to society, right?
They may have murdered
someone or whatever,
they can go really be released on bail.
Yet someone who's poor and not a threat
will be kept in because they
can't make bail or whatever.
So that imbalance consisting
of what you've articulated
around the history, historical context,
given by DeAnna is important.
And obviously Julio,
I know you have some thoughts on that too.
- No, but I think everything what
my colleagues said was excellent.
I just wanted to touch on the Black Codes.
Because when we're looking at this,
the (mumbles) the
sensationalism that we're seeing
around the media hype, on these few cases
that they're saying, you know what,
this is what we want you to see
because we know, as people in the city,
as big as New York with 9 million people,
we love something sensational.
- Right.
- We wanna look at it and we
want to say, wow, change that.
We let some, actually 40% of the people
that were held on Rikers
Island in the past
had a bail of less than $2,000.
- Wow.
- 40%, you sit there for
years and we know the cases.
And there were many of them.
And most of them were people of color.
So I think when we look,
and we look at Bail Reform,
this is week three into Bail Reform
and already, (chuckles)
we see folk wanna change
everything about it and,
"We can't roll that back."
Because I think as we
start rolling that back,
we're going to lose all the momentum,
and all the progress, that advocates
and so many others have
given their lives for,
for these changes, to the Kalief Browders,
to all the folk that were part of a system
that was just destructive,
that was inherently evil.
We can't allow that to continue to go on.
So I think just the
sensationalism around it.
How do we, as advocates
of people of color,
make sure that this is front and center
and we don't lose sight of it.
We understand there's some, you know,
prosecutors may have
some concerns just about
how this is being rolled out,
but the bottom line is, you
should have had those concerns
for the last hundred years
as we languished in these
prison cells forever.
So I just think there's a connection.
And that connection, again,
Vivian, you were so on point;
just when we think about Black Codes
because we see, how that's connected.
But we put these barriers in place,
we see it around the vote, we put in,
we see it in Florida right now (chuckles)
we see it in Kentucky, I believe, right?
- Mm-hmm.
- We're seeing these barriers put in place
after 25% of the population
that were once justice involved
now have the right to vote.
They were, wait a minute;
you need an ID card.
- [Stanley] Sure.
- Well wait a minute, you
need to pay your fines.
So I just think, you know what I'm saying?
So I just think there's a
connection and that connection,
we can't allow it to muff our voices.
We can't allow it to continue
to be a, this narrative.
This single narrative of,
you know, the worst moment
that someone was on bail
and then did something.
There's 95% of other people
who returned back to court.
- Sure.
- Let's focus on those 95%.
I think that's what's important.
- I had the opportunity to
get some numbers from DOC
in terms of how many people were released
prior to January first--
- And DOC is Department of Corrections?
- Department of Corrections,
New York City Department of Corrections.
Prior to January,
there was a little over
6,000 people in the system.
Right now we are under 5,500 people,
as a result of the January 1 Bail Reform.
DOC has said at least 800
people have been released
underneath the new Bail Reform.
But we hear three or four
cases that are being elevated
and shown, like this is why
we shouldn't have Bail Reform.
But we had over 800 people released.
That are doing the right
thing, that are going to court,
that are trying to have
their cases adjudicated
in a system that professes
to be fair and just.
- And it's not so much
about the idea of like,
I mean the three or four
people that have been
lifted up in the media is
like contributing negatively
to this idea of Bail Reform,
had mental health issues.
So the idea is, right?
And I think the mayor, Mayor de Blasio,
kind of like raised this.
He said something to the effect that
it's not Bail Reform
legislation that's at the issue,
it's New York City's failure
to have adequate mental health
services to engage people.
I think that was profound, right?
Because it's true.
- It's profound but welcome
to New York City, Mr. Mayor,
(mumbles) how long have you known that?
Because we haven't seen
a whole lot of traction
to try to fix the lack
of mental health services
in New York City, or homelessness,
or any of the other
problems, under his purview.
- Sure, sure.
DeAnna, I know you wanna say something.
And then I wanna kinda
go right into voting.
Kinda voting dovetails with
all of this stuff, Bail Reform,
and all that stuff too.
- So I just wanna make sure we realize
here in New York City that
this fear-mongering is a blueprint.
When stop-and-frisk was
stopped, it was the same thing.
- Central Park Five, for example.
- We need that to control
- Right?
- Exactly.
When the RFK foundation started
bailing out women and children.
You can't do that because crime
is gonna increase and all of that.
But nothing happened.
- Right.
- So what we're seeing
here is this day of what
back in the day we used to Willie Horton
to pull furlough opportunities
out of the correctional system
that allows us to reintegrate.
- Right.
- So we're just having a repeat.
They use the same blueprint,
just this time we got some
smart people at the table
that were no longer willing to allow them.
'Cause we didn't have
platforms like this back then
to talk about this and how it impacts.
But it's actually the
same blueprint and again,
it's to keep us oppressed.
- So what do we do really quickly, right?
What are some of the
things that we can do,
to kind of counter that narrative?
This lifting up of something
negative around Bail Reform.
What are some of the things we can do?
- So we're definitely keeping
our voices front and center.
We're challenging them.
We're asking questions
of, and even in some cases
it's been the DA, the way they're charged;
they could have charged different
based on the situations,
but they chose to charge
in a way that they fell into
the category of no cash bail.
But then when people talk
about it, they're saying,
but you know, there was one incident
where a reporter asked me;
the guy was on tape shooting
at a rival gang member
and he got an assault charge.
And the attorney on the phone say,
"Well, that was a DA charging.
"If you actually had anyone
film trying to attempted murder,
"that was a different charge."
She said, "But we're not gonna
"advocate for anybody to be incarcerated."
But there still were
options and opportunities.
And don't forget about the people who,
of that 800 that was released,
that actually did access
substance abuse services
they wouldn't have gotten
had they sat there and
languished on Rikers Island.
So we gotta tell the story of the 797,
while they're talking about the 3.
(mumbles in agreement)
- So I wanna segue way into voting.
I know we're at a critical
juncture right now, right?
The census is coming out for 2020,
people are gonna be counting,
counted in some way,
which would determine
whether or not federal money
is allocated to our communities.
Talk to us about the importance of voting
and I know, Julio, you're kinda like
lifting this up as a
thing and we're all gonna
partner with you some way to support that.
Let's talk about that and
then talk about the sentence
and how important that is.
- [Julio] Sure, so
(mumbles)
- Our politics, and
first of all, are local.
And it's important that we have the right
representatives on board.
In our communities, the
unfortunate reality;
I'm from the South
Bronx, is we don't vote.
We have some of the lowest
voter turnout in the country.
And I think we don't vote,
but again, because I think
there's this hopelessness
that sometimes exists.
- Which is historical, right?
- Historical hopelessness, that, you know,
it just, it doesn't seem
like it's gonna get better.
- Right.
- It doesn't seem like
if I vote for someone,
my immediate circumstances will change.
And I think it's important
for us to begin to
at least empower our
people; civic engagement,
talking to them about what
the power of the right to vote
actually means and what does
it mean in our community.
From federal resources to local resources.
And having a representative that actually
is gonna listen to our needs.
You know, as a nonprofit leader, you know,
it's like hat in hand to
each individual person.
Oh, can you fund what we do?
And you get to a point after 20 years
where that narrative should change.
Come to us, 2 million
strong across the country,
and say we now are voting in a block.
We are now conscious
around what we're doing
and we wanna hear what your platform is
around criminal justice and justice issues
and homelessness and income equality.
We want to have a different conversation.
And I think the only way that happens is
if we restore the right to vote.
Not only for folk on parole
that we've been able to do,
but while they still inside.
We should not forfeit our right to vote.
Our right should never be forfeited.
We've committed a crime.
Did that now dehumanize
and take every strip of every single right
that we once constitutionally have?
So I just think it's
important that our communities
really begin to look at the vote,
really begin to understand
what this is about.
And we have to be the educators.
We have to figure out how do
we do the civic engagement
in a way where people understand it.
We go into prisons now and one
of the things we do, is say,
first thing I want you to do
is I want your families to vote.
I want us to have a impact.
I want folk to know that, where
did these 5,000 extra votes
come in this community?
It came from us.
Cause I think that's when
folk will started listening.
But the po..., and again, this
is, as you know there's some,
some folk who've done this 30 years ago
when I was locked up trying to move this.
I take zero credit for,
- Sure, sure.
- Any of this.
But now is the moment in time,
where I believe just now
we're not gonna have this
window of opportunity again.
Historically, this has never happened
where mass incarceration is sexy,
where we're thinking about voting.
We were talking about
that earlier 20 years ago,
we were like hiding in the shadows.
(laughter)
When we came home trying to do this work,
nobody was, "Yo man, I did 12 years."
You know, we didn't, you didn't say that.
We're trying to slide
into a job and be quiet.
But now is an opportunity to really,
not only bear those scars
but to show the world,
there was humanity always there,
we made some wrong choices.
We should have the right to vote restored
and restored for everyone,
folk inside as well.
I think some states are doing some,
showing some great examples of that.
But in New York, more
importantly, at least
we have to get civically engaged
and get our communities
involved in this process.
Be there and educate, educate, educate.
- I'll tell you a quick story.
When I came home, got off parole,
I went and voted and I went as a family.
My youngest son and my
wife, we went and voted.
And I made it my business to take my son
with me in the booth, because
I remember when I was young,
I didn't ever hear, remember my father
telling me about voting.
I'd never went to a polling place.
I always felt like voting
was for other people.
Like that wasn't a right afforded to me.
And so from the point of my
getting off parole to today,
we still vote as a family.
Because I wanted my son
to know this isn't for
just privileged people,
this is for all of us.
You have this right to vote,
now you need to exercise it.
Because exercising that right to vote
means that you get a representative
who is listening to you.
You get a representative who
understands your concerns
and your needs and you could,
will be able to speak to that.
So I'm all onboard with like,
we have to mobilize, educate, and engage.
And DeAnna and Vivian did something
that was so amazing in 2019.
That has never happened in this country,
but they did it and they
did it in a big way.
And I want y'all to talk about it
because we need to lift that up.
- [Andre] You talking about
the town hall meeting?
- Yes.
- And I know we talked
about it like last episode,
but that's what it means,
obviously to be like this
harbinger, this forerunner.
And not like bowing down
in the face of these
challenges in that way, too.
And you know, I know we can
talk about this all day.
- [Julio] Yes.
- Right?
And I would love to highlight that;
the idea about the town hall meeting,
and I know for our listening audience,
you can definitely look at
our next, our last episode.
Where you all talk about it.
What I really wanna get to
in our last few minutes,
it's something that Vivian, you raised up.
This idea of capacity
building and leadership.
And I love to hear each of your thoughts.
Because we know that in 2020,
with the next 5 to 10 years or so,
nonprofit leadership is
going to be changing.
And so I know, Vivian
talk to us about that
as a start off.
Your thoughts on capacity
building and leadership,
why is it so important?
And then we'll go around to everyone else.
- Sure, so what I've noticed
over the last 20 years
since I've been doing this work;
the more we came out
of the shadows, Julio,
from when we first started,
when it was just a very
small number of people,
who were either in leadership
in existing organizations
or who started organizations.
As we elevated and built
solid organizations
with good infrastructure and
got more and more publicity
and we're able to grow
organizations and hire people
and make changes and provide services.
That was a great thing.
And the word spread.
The word spread both inside
prisons and outside of prisons.
And it was both a success
and there are some challenges
that came with that.
And one of the challenges is,
that now everybody who's in prison,
knowing that they're
gonna get out one day go,
Oh, I know what I'm gonna do, (laughs).
I'm gonna get out and I'm
gonna start a organization.
So you got 2 million people
sitting behind prison, so,
(laughter)
And we're gonna have 2
million organizations, well,
actually, the best way
to move into leadership
is to find a space that's
working on the things
that you care about and learn and grow.
And learn what it really means
to start an organization,
to run an organization
and build your capacity.
And you know what, you may find
that your role is, you
have a different role
than running an organization.
You may be better at something else.
But to start out the, come out the gate
saying you've got to
start an organization,
is maybe not the best solution.
- It's aspirational, right?
- It's aspirational.
(mumbles)
It's aspirational and it's possible.
- Right, sure.
- But it's not possible
without connecting to people
who are already doing that and
without learning some things.
And those of us who are
in these, these positions
who have done that work,
who have sometimes suffered
some serious consequences;
no sleep at night, health problems,
all the consequences of
giving your whole self
to something can mentor and teach
and build the capacity of
those who are coming up.
Because quite frankly what we want
is a whole another bunch of
people who can come up behind us
and take over the successful organizations
that are already in existence.
Rather than reinventing the wheel.
- [Andre] Sure.
- We wanna turn over our
organizations to other people
who are directly impacted.
And not to other people
who are waiting in line to get our jobs.
- Yeah, Stan, I know you
want to talk about that.
- I think as service
providers in this space,
that ought to be our responsibility.
To build the bench.
To build the continuation
of strong leadership;
based on values, based on
vision, based on motivation
and engagement, that for
the next 10, 20 years,
as people are coming out or for those
who are in the work right
now in this space right now,
building out that leadership.
So that when opportunities
come about for people to lead
and head organizations,
there is a bench to fill those voids.
And I think it's all
of our responsibility;
and it has been, I know that
we've all been working on;
how do you build your bench?
Who is your second?
How do you mentor somebody that you,
so they understand the business operations
of running a nonprofit.
Not just the fundraising, or the advocacy,
or the service providing,
but how do you run
successfully an organization?
- DeAnna, I now see you smiling.
- Yeah, because that's so in line with,
of course Just Leadership
being a leadership organization
that invests in the leadership
of directly impacted individuals
to build their capacity.
So one of the things is,
we're really taking a look at
what is our responsibility to the leaders
who come through our leading
with conviction training.
Are we giving them access
and an understanding
of what policy is?
How to communicate from an organization
or a brand as a person yourself.
But what's the introduction
to real capacity building
around organization.
And do we start to create
some of those C-suite programs
of intro to board, sitting on a board.
I'm actually executive director,
so, what is our responsibility?
Because sometimes people
come through Just Leadership
and we focus on the
three pillars of change.
The three theories of change,
with the first one being self.
And how you show up in spaces of,
the criminal justice system.
But when people leave they
think, oh I'm a leader
'cause Just Leadership said that.
It was like no because (chuckles)
- [Andre] It's a process.
- And what I realized, people
aren't leaders individually
in their space, but they,
there's a difference
because some people put
leadership with a title.
And just because a person has a title
does not make you a leader.
So actually having that
understanding and how we again,
start to create those individuals
who are gonna come up behind us
and take over the organizations.
Because one of the things I
realize people don't understand,
Julio spoke to it, asking
for funding ain't fun.
And if it becomes 2 million organizations,
well the field is already crowded.
(laughter)
Let's just be honest.
And the funding is not,
and this is not gonna continue to be sexy.
And again, we're having
leaders come into this space
when the funding's plentiful;
but they don't realize 20 years ago,
we was doing this when we had no funding.
So there have, that opportunity
may come back around.
How are you going to stick and stay
and actually be recognized in
that space when that happens.
- Sure, and Julio, we
were talking about that
when you're sitting over
there, the very same thing.
What are your thoughts on that?
- You know, and again,
getting out 20-plus years ago,
and being one of the folk who say,
"I wanna start something."
(laughter)
Realized I couldn't work for nobody.
(laughter)
It was, yeah, so I'm the
guy you're talking about.
(laughter)
And I would advise you, don't do it.
(laughter)
But no, I think, I
think some of the things
when we talk about leadership
and that leadership gap,
is making sure that as you know,
Exodus with 90% of my
team is directly impacted.
And that was before,
again, it was sexy, right?
I said there's talent,
there's a talent pool here,
I believe I can do something.
I think we can train and
we can tell the world
that we are more than the
worst moment of our lives.
That we can tell the world that
because we were incarcerated,
our minds weren't taken away.
And I think it was important
to make that statement the
way we've made that statement.
And continually to build
the infrastructure within.
When we talk about, we do this exercise,
it's called Developing the Leader Within.
Because I think the
first thing we have to do
is develop ourselves.
- [Andre] Like, it's the DeAnna's point
(mumbles)
- I think we can't, you know,
yeah we did this or yeah, we did that.
Different set of skills that you need
to lead an organization,
to lead a nonprofit.
And leadership does it;
not only in the nonprofit space,
but as we said when we
talked about the vote,
you know, 60 something council seats
will be up for reelection
in the next two years.
We need some leaders in those seats.
We need people who understand
the dynamic of the city
to be there and be present
and they need to be directly impact.
- Got it.
Vivian, Stan, DeAnna, Julio,
it's never enough time.
Never enough time.
(laughter)
Always great to talk with all of you.
And we'll certainly have
you all back on soon,
as we get updates.
But I just wanna close
and I wanna thank you all
for giving us your thoughts
and observations about
Criminal Justice Reform in 2019
and what 2020 will bring.
And I thank you the viewers for joining us
for all of the
thought-provoking discussion.
In the meantime, on behalf
of The Fortune Society,
we thank you so much for tuning in
to "Both Sides of the Bars."
If you're interested in finding out more
about The Fortune Society,
please check us out
on the web at fortunesociety.org.
That's fortunesociety.org.
Or on Facebook by typing
in the fortunesociety.
This is Andre Ward and I
appreciate you joining us
as we critically look at
both sides of the bars.
(gentle music)
