♪ ]THEME MUSIC] ♪
 >> WELCOME TO ITALICS.
TELEVISION FOR THE ITALIAN
AMERICAN EXPERIENCE.
I AM YOUR HOST, ANTHONY
TAMBURRI.
IN COMMEMORATING WOMEN'S
HISTORY MONTH, THIS YEAR
WE THOUGHT WE WOULD HIGHLIGHT
DEVELOPMENTS OF A
MOVEMENT IN ITALY THAT HAS NOT
RECEIVED ATTENTION WE
THOUGHT IT DESERVES.
I AM SPEAKING TO THE LITERARY
PHENOMENON OF NOT JUST IMMIGRANT
LITERATURE IN ITALY, NOR AFRICAN
ITALIAN LITERATURE IN MORE
GENERAL TERMS.
WE DECIDED TO HIGHLIGHT THE
AFRICAN ITALIAN FEMALE VOICE.
OUR DECISION STEMS FROM THE
RECENT PUBLICATION OF AN
ANTHOLOGY ENTITLED, "FUTURE. IL
DOMANI NARRATO DALLE VOCI DI
OGGI."
WHICH WAS EDITED BY IGIABA SCEGO
AND PUBLISHED BY EFFEQU PRESS
IN ITALY.
AS GEORGE DE STEFANO STATED IN
HIS REVIEW OF OUR EVENT,
"WRITERS LONG HAVE BEEN AGENTS
OF SOCIAL CHANGE, EXPOSING
SOCIETAL EVILS, CHALLENGING
OPPRESSIVE ORTHODOXIES,
AND OFFERING VISIONS
OF WHAT COULD BE OF
POSSIBILITIES LATENT OR
EMERGENT.
FUTURE, IL DOMANI NARRATO DALLE
VOCI DI OGGI COMPRISES WRITING
BY 11 SELF IDENTIFIED BLACK
ITALIAN WOMEN.
AS THE BOOK TITLE SUGGESTS,
THEIR WORK IS FORWARD-LOOKING
WELL-GROUNDED IN CONTEMPORARY
REALITIES.
A TOMORROW NARRATED BY THE
VOICES OF TODAY.
THE ESSAYS ARE ALSO STEEPED IN
ITALIAN HISTORY AND PARTICULARLY
A PATH THAT ONLY RECENTLY HAS
BEGUN TO BE ACKNOWLEDGED.
THAT OF THE ITALIAN EMPIRE AND
ITS AFRICAN COLONIES.
THE BOOK, THE FIRST LITERARY
ANTHOLOGY BY BLACK-ITALIAN
WOMEN, IS A POLITICAL
INTERVENTION.
AN ACTIVE RESISTANCE TO RACISM
AND ANTI-EMIGRANT ATTITUDES
THAT HAVE BECOME ALARMINGLY
WIDESPREAD IN ITALIAN SOCIETY
AND POLITICS.
OR, AS ITS EDITOR IGIABA SCEGO
PUTS IT,  A CONTEMPORARY -- THAT
PUBLICLY DENOUNCES POWER AND
INJUSTICE.
CAMILLA HAWTHORNE, MARIA MOÏSE,
AND ANGELICA PESARINI ARE THREE
OF THE BOOK'S CONTRIBUTORS
WHO WERE ABLE TO JOIN US ON
FEBRUARY 4. WE WERE ALSO
JOINED BY CANDICE WHITNEY, A NEW
YORKER, WHO HAS BEEN WRITING
ABOUT RACISM IN ITALY AND WHO
FIRST BROUGHT THE BOOK TO OUR
ATTENTION.
NOW, LET'S GO TO THE CALANDRA
INSTITUTE.
♪
>> THANK YOU FOR COMING
EVERYONE.
I AM SO GLAD THAT YOU ARE ALL
HERE AND THAT THERE IS A FULL
ROOM AND AN APPETITE TO LEARN
MORE ABOUT "FUTURE."
IT IS AN ANTHOLOGY OF 11 STORIES
WRITTEN BY AFRO ITALIAN WOMEN.
THE EDITOR IS IGIABA SCEGO --
EACH OF THE CONTRIBUTING
AUTHORS TO WRITE ABOUT THEIR
EXPERIENCES.
FROM EACH ONE, YOU LEARN
FROM THE WOMEN'S EXPERIENCES AND
GET A SENSE OF THE VALUES IN A
NEW ITALY AND WORLD THAT
COULD BE IMAGINED.
-- CALLS IT THE MODERN DAY
J'ACCUSE BY EMILE ZOLA,
ESSENTIALLY SHOWS HOW HE
WROTE CALLING OUT THE INJUSTICES
HE WAS WITNESSING AND "FUTURE"
IS EXACTLY THAT.
♪
>> FUTURE IS AN EXTREMELY
IMPORTANT ANTHOLOGY.
IT IS THE FIRST ANTHOLOGY
WRITTEN BY AFRO ITALIAN WOMEN.
♪
>> I BEGAN TO UNDERSTAND MY
OWN BLACKNESS IN ITALY.
I WAS BORN IN NORTHERN
CALIFORNIA IN 1987 TO AN
AFRICAN-AMERICAN FATHER FROM
OAKLAND AND A WHITE ITALIAN
MOTHER FROM TRESCORE, BERGAMO.
MY PARENTS MET IN ITALY IN THE
1970s WHERE MY FATHER HAD BEEN
STATIONED FOR MILITARY SERVICE.
THEY MARRIED IN THE SNOWY
MOUNTAINS OF TRENTINO
IN 1976 AT A TIME WHEN THERE
WERE FEW COUPLES LIKE THEM IN
ITALY.
ALTHOUGH THEY EVENTUALLY SETTLED
IN THE UNITED STATES, THEY
INSISTED I'D BE RAISED IN AN
ENVIRONMENT WHERE I WOULD LEARN
TO VALUE BOTH MY
AFRICAN-AMERICAN ROOTS AND
MY ITALIAN HERITAGE.
SO, I GREW UP BILINGUAL, IN
ENGLISH AND ITALIAN.
I SPOKE ITALIAN BEFORE I SPOKE
ENGLISH.
I HAVE FOND MEMORIES OF BEDTIME
STORIES FROM BOOKS OF AFRICAN
FOLKLORE, AFRICAN-AMERICAN
HISTORY AND YOU KNOW, FABLE
ITALANE.
I TOOK MY FIRST WOBBLY TODDLER
STEPS IN ITALY.
I HAVE FOND MEMORIES OF CHASING
FIREFLIES AND COLLECTING ELDER
FLOWERS TO MAKE SAMBUCA AND
GATHERING FRESH EGGS ON MY
MOTHER'S FAMILY FARM.
AS A KID, THIS KIND OF
TRANSCULTURAL LIFE WAS BANAL.
IT WAS UNREMARKABLE TO ME I
SPOKE TWO LANGUAGES, HAD TWO
PASSPORTS, AND THAT MY PARENTS
WERE TWO COLORS.
AS I GREW UP I REALIZED
I WAS FORTUNATE TO BE RAISED BY
PARENTS LIKE MINE AND THAT THE
REST OF THE ROLE WAS NOT AS
OPEN-MINDED AS THE FAMILY I CAME
FROM.
IN CALIFORNIA WHEN MY MOM
ENROLLED ME IN PUBLIC SCHOOL,
SHE WROTE ON THE PAPERWORK THAT
I WAS BILINGUAL AND I WAS ALMOST
PUT IN REMEDIAL ENGLISH CLASSES.
MY WHITE FRIENDS WOULD JOKE THAT
I WAS NOT REALLY BLACK UNTIL I
STARTED OUT PERFORMING THEM IN
SCHOOL AT WHICH POINT
THEY CLAIMED THAT I
WAS RECEIVING SPECIAL TREATMENT
BECAUSE I WAS BLACK.
IN ITALY, MY MOTHER WAS PEPPERED
WITH QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT
AFRICAN COUNTRY SHE ADOPTED ME
FROM.
WHEN MY FATHER AND I WOULD GO
OUT FOR COFFEE IN ITALY, WE
WOULD NOTICE OLDER ITALIAN MEN
GOSSIPING ABOUT US IN ITALIAN,
BUT THEY SHUT UP AS SOON AS WE
SWITCHED OUR CONVERSATIONS INTO
ITALIAN.
♪
>> [SPEAKING ITALIAN]
>> I REMEMBER WHEN I WAS A
TEENAGE GIRL AND ALSO MY BODY
TURNING INTO A WOMAN'S BODY,
I GOT ANGRY WITH MY WHITE
ITALIAN MOTHER FOR GIVING ME
BIRTH WITH A HAITIAN MAN.
AND NOT AN ITALIAN ONE AS SHE
DID WITH FOR MY SISTERS WHO,
UNLIKE ME,
HAVE ITALIAN SURNAMES AND
BLOND STRAIGHT HERE.
FROM THAT -- THE WORD "MY
COUNTRY" WAS A PAINFUL WORD.
THE SAME MY FATHER SUFFERED
FROM, FAILING FOR ALL OF HIS
LIFE IN ATTEMPTING TO BE WHITE.
I WROTE THIS PIECE, BECAUSE I
FELT I NEEDED TO REOPEN MY
HAITIAN EYES ON HIM AND ON OUR
RELATIONSHIP AND ON THE
NON-WHITE SUFFERANCE THAT
CONNECTS US.
♪
>> [SPEAKING ITALIAN]
>> THE LETTER IS WRITTEN BY THE
DEL VICARIO APOSTOLICO AT
ASMARA, DATING,
THE 21ST OF MAY, 1931.
SOMEHOW THROUGH MY EDUCATION, I
CAME TO TERMS WITH MYSELF.
FOR THE FIRST TIME I WENT TO
ERITREA, AND I WANTED TO WORK ON
THE ORAL HISTORY OF WOMEN.
I WANTED TO GATHER THE VOICES OF
WOMEN WHO WERE BORN UNDER THE
FASCIST REGIME FROM WHITE,
USUALLY FASCIST FATHERS AND
AFRICAN MOTHERS LIKE MY FAMILY.
MY CASE IS MORE COMPLICATED,
BECAUSE MY PARENTS ARE BOTH
MIXED AND MY GRANDPARENTS ARE
BOTH MIXED.
MY FAMILY HISTORY ORIGINATED
FROM ITALIAN COLONIALISM.
♪
I WAS BORN IN ROME, BUT RAISED
IN --
I REMEMBER MY CHILDHOOD AS
A FANTASTIC PERIOD OF MY LIFE.
ALSO, I WAS SURROUNDED AND
SOMETIMES DROWNING A BIT IN AN
OCEAN OF WHITENESS, BECAUSE
NOBODY WAS LIKE ME, EVER.
FROM THE MOMENT I WAS STEPPING
OUTSIDE OF MY HOUSE,
EVERYONE WAS WHITE, EVERYWHERE.
FROM KINDERGARTEN TO ALMOST
UNIVERSITY, I NEVER HAD A
NONWHITE STUDENT IN MY CLASS.
IT WAS ALWAYS ME.
♪
>> IN ADDITION TO THE BOOK
PRESENTATION, WE SAT DOWN WITH
THE THREE CONTRIBUTORS AND
WITH CANDICE WHITNEY.
WE JOIN THEM NOW AT THE
CALANDRA INSTITUTE.
WELCOME TO ITALICS.
TELL US WHO YOU ARE, WHAT YOUR
BACKGROUND IS, WHICH WILL
TELL US WHY YOU ARE HERE.
>> I AM HAITIAN ITALIAN.
I AM A PHD STUDENT IN POLITICAL
PHILOSOPHY.
>> THESE DAYS, I EXPLAIN MYSELF
AS ITALO AFRO AMERICANA.
MY FATHER IS BLACK AMERICAN FROM
OAKLAND, MY MOTHER IS ITALIAN.
NOW I TEACH IN THE SOCIOLOGY
DEPARTMENT AT UC SANTA CRUZ AND
I TEACH CLASSES ON RACE AND
BLACKNESS IN EUROPE,
CITIZENSHIP, AND I AM WRITING A
BOOK ABOUT BLACK YOUTH POLITICS
IN ITALY.
>> I WAS BORN IN ROME AND
I LIVE IN FLORENCE.
I AM A PROFESSOR AT NYU FLORENCE
WHERE I TEACH A COURSE CALLED
BLACK ITALIA.
I DEFINE MYSELF AS A BLACK
ITALIAN WOMAN.
-- THE HORN OF AFRICA,
FOR ME IT WAS REALLY IMPORTANT
TO HIGHLIGHT BLACKNESS AND
ITALIANNESS.
>> WHEN I FIRST SAW THE TITLE, I
WAS INTRIGUED BY IT BECAUSE I
WAS LOOKING AT IT NOT ONLY FROM
AN ITALIAN POINT OF VIEW
LINGUISTICALLY, BUT FROM AN
AMERICAN POINT OF VIEW.
I DO NOT KNOW IF THE PLAY OF
WORDS IS THERE.
"FUTURE" FOR THOSE WHO DON'T
KNOW ITALIAN MEANS FUTURE
VOICES, SO IT MAKES SENSE,
THAT WOULD BE "FUTURE" OR FUTURE
WOMEN WRITERS -- THERE ARE
PLENTY OF WORDS ALSO, BUT I
WAS WONDERING ABOUT FUTURE, THE
ENGLISH TERM.
I REALLY THOUGHT ABOUT THAT.
MY OWN SEMIOTIC AS WE WOULD SAY.
REALLY, FUTURE: IL DOMANI
NARRATO DALLE VOCI DI OGGI IS
REALLY IMPORTANT.
THE IDEA OF TEMPORALITY AND THE
IDEA OF "MOVING FORWARD."
NOT THAT WE IGNORE THE PAST, BUT
WE BUILD OFF OF IT IN A SENSE
THAT WE MOVE FORWARD SO WE DON'T
JUST COMPLAIN ABOUT WHAT
HAPPENED, BUT WE LOOK AT WHAT
HAPPENED THEN WE TRY TO LEARN
FROM THAT.
THAT IS WHAT I SEE FROM THIS
BOOK.
♪
>> IGIABA SCEGO WROTE THE
EDITOR'S NOTE, WHO UNFORTUNATELY
COULDN'T BE WITH US TODAY HERE.
FORTUNATELY FOR HER, BECAUSE
A NEW BOOK OF HERS CAME OUT AND
SHE IS TRAVELING AROUND ITALY
PRESENTING THAT.
AND THEN YOU CAMILLA WROTE THE
"PREFAZIONE."
IT IS SO OUTSTANDING IN ITS
SIGNIFICANCE THAT YOU WRITE --
[SPEAKING ITALIAN]
AND THEN TRULY UNDERSTOOD WHAT
IT MEANS TO BE BLACK.
BUT YOU HAD TO GO TO ITALY.
>> I DID.
WHEN SEVERAL OF US WERE OUT AT
DINNER LAST NIGHT I SAID IT IS
REALLY WHEN I AM IN SPACES WITH
OTHER BLACK ITALIAN WOMEN AND I
DEFINE THAT IN A CAPACIOUS
SENSE.
WHERE I REALLY FEEL BOTH MY MOST
BLACK AND ALSO MY MOST ITALIAN.
EVEN THOUGH I WAS BORN IN THE
UNITED STATES AND I WENT TO
SCHOOL IN THE UNITED STATES,
SO MY MOTHER WAS THE ONLY ONE
OF HER FAMILY WHO CAME TO THE
U.S. AND I WAS BORN WITH
ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP, BECAUSE
OF ITALY'S PARTICULAR LAWS.
I SPENT LARGE CHUNKS OF MY
CHILDHOOD IN ITALY WITH MY
ITALIAN FAMILY.
BECAUSE OF THIS BIZARRE
COMBINATION OF BEING A DUAL
CITIZEN, AFRICAN-AMERICAN, ALSO
FIRST GENERATION CHILD OF AN
IMMIGRANT, ALL OF THESE THINGS
-- THERE WERE WAYS IN WHICH I
FELT MY OWN LIVED EXPERIENCE
OF BLACKNESS DIDN'T QUITE MAP
PERFECTLY ONTO THE KIND OF
NORMATIVE NARRATIVE OF WHAT IT
MEANS TO BE BLACK IN THE UNITED
STATES.
THAT IS SOMETHING I ALWAYS
STRUGGLED WITH.
NOT FEELING PROPERLY BLACK IN A
VERY NARROWLY DEFINED
AFRICAN-AMERICAN SENSE, BUT ALSO
GOING TO ITALY AND NOT BEING
RECOGNIZED AS ITALIAN.
THAT STARTED TO CHANGE IN 2016
WHEN I LIVED IN ITALY FOR A FULL
CALENDAR YEAR DURING THE
ETHNOGRAPHIC RESEARCH FOR MY
BOOK, WHEN I MET A NUMBER
OF OTHER BLACK ITALIANS --
WE ARE ALL BLACK ITALIANS BY
DIFFERENT ROOTS AND ROUTES.
THERE WAS SOMETHING ABOUT THE
KINDS OF HYPHENATIONS OF OUR
OWN IDENTITIES AND CERTAIN KINDS
OF NARRATIONS OF LIVED
EXPERIENCE EVEN THOUGH AGAIN,
THE GEOGRAPHIES WERE DIFFERENT
BUT I BEGIN TO UNDERSTAND MY OWN
BLACKNESS A LOT MORE AND REALLY
HELPED -- SOMETHING I DO IN MY
WORK WHICH IS TO ASK HOW DO WE
SHIFT OUR CENTER OF GRAVITY WHEN
WE TALK ABOUT BLACKNESS --
UNDERSTANDING THE HISTORICAL
POLITICAL SIGNIFICANCE OF THE
BLACK AMERICAN EXPERIENCE.
ALSO, TRYING TO UNDERSTAND ITALY
AS THIS INCREDIBLY GENERATIVE
SIGHT OF BLACK DIASPORIC
KNOWLEDGE AND CULTURAL
PRODUCTION.
>> FOR MARIE AND ANGELICA, YOU
HAVE A DIFFERENT AFRICAN
"EXPERIENCE?"
>> I REMEMBER BEING ASKED AS A
CHILD, WHERE ARE YOU FROM?
IT WAS A BIT COMPLICATED TO
RESPOND,
I KNEW I WAS ITALIAN BUT I
COULDN'T UNDERSTAND THE
ORIGIN OF MY COLOR, BECAUSE
MY PARENTS DIDN'T HELP ME
WITH THAT.
I HAD TO FIND ALL THE ANSWERS BY
MYSELF.
WHEN WE TALK ABOUT
COLORBLINDNESS, CHILDREN SEE
COLOR VERY WELL.
I WAS AWARE OF BEING ITALIAN,
BUT ALSO NON WHITE.
I WAS QUESTIONED A LOT ABOUT MY
IDENTITY WITH THIS FAMOUS
INFAMOUS QUESTION LIKE,
WHERE ARE YOU REALLY FROM?
BECAUSE ROME WAS NEVER ENOUGH
FOR QUESTIONS ABOUT MY PERFECT
ITALIAN.
-- AH WHERE DID YOU LEARN --
[LAUGHTER]
>> WAS THIS QUESTIONS, VERY
INVASIVE AND VERY
UNRECIPROCATED.
I HAD TO RECKON WITH MY
BLACKNESS AND MY ITALIANNESS
FOR A VERY LONG TIME.
AND THEN I MANAGED TO GO TO
ERITREA FOR THE FIRST TIME AS
AN ADULT, WHEN I WENT THERE
MANY THINGS SUDDENLY MAKE SENSE
TO ME.
IT WAS REALLLY AN IMPORTANT
JOURNEY AND NOW I WOULD LIKE TO
GO TO SOMALIA, BECAUSE IT IS THE
OTHER SIDE OF MY FAMILY.
>> YOU ARE ALSO "NORTH AMERICAN"
TO SOME DEGREE, CARIBBEAN.
>> ACTUALLY, AS I WROTE, I HAVE
ALWAYS PERCEIVED MYSELF
AS WHITE AND I HAVE ALWAYS
PERCEIVED MY FATHER AS WHITE
TOO.
BECAUSE HE IS MIXED.
HE IS MIXED TOO.
MY GRANDFATHER IS MIXED TOO.
I AM IN A MIXED FAMILY.
AFTER THE MIGRATION FROM HAITI
TO ITALY, THEY STARTED ACTING
LIKE FULL ITALIANS.
CUTTING THEIR ROOTS, CUTTING
THEIR RELATION TO HAITI.
SO, I STARTED MAKING A LOT OF
QUESTIONS ABOUT MY FAMILY'S
WITHOUT RECEIVING ANY ANSWERS.
THAT CAUSED ME DIFFICULTY IN MY
IDENTIFICATION, BECAUSE I FELT
ITALIAN, BUT EVERY TIME THERE
WAS SOMETHING THAT REMAINDED
ME I WAS NOT COMPLETELY ITALIAN
AS IT IS EXPECTED TO BE.
MY SURNAME IS SO COMPLICATED
TO PRONOUNCE, MY FIRST
NAME IS FRENCH AND SO ON.
MY THEME IS A COMPLICATED
RELATION WITH ITALIAN WHITENESS.
THERE IS ANOTHER STORY THAT
MARKED ME A LOT WHICH I
DISCOVERED RECENTLY WHICH
CONCERNS ITALIANNESS AND ITALIAN
CITIZENSHIP, WHICH IS A GREAT
THEME IN MY FAMILY'S HISTORY,
BECAUSE MY GRANDMOTHER MARRIED
MY HAITIAN GRANDFATHER, BUT
MY GRANDMOTHER IS ITALIAN.
WHEN SHE MARRIED MY GRANDFATHER,
SHE LOST HER ITALIAN
CITIZENSHIP,
ACCORDING TO ITALIAN LAW.
>> WHEN DID THEY GET MARRIED?
>> IN '50s.
UNTIL 1975 IN ITALY, THERE WAS A
LAW WHICH OBLIGED WOMEN TO LOSE
ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP IF THEY
"DARED" TO MARRY A --
>> A FOREIGNER.
>> THIS MIX OF MIGRATION AND
COMPLETE WHITENESS AND COMPLETE
ITALIANNESS IS MY MIX.
THIS IS WHAT I TRY TO
UNDERSTAND AND ANALYZE HERE.
>> YOUR EXPERIENCE -- YOUR
HISTORY IS ALSO ONE OF
COLONIALISM AND SO ON.
>> THERE IS -- ITALIAN
COLONIALISM OBVIOUSLY, BUT THEN
COLUMBUS AND HISPANIOLA AS WELL
IS PART OF YOUR STORY.
>> -- THIS IS -- CALLED ITALY.
>> BUT THIS IS HOW THE STORIES
ARE REALLY INTERTWINED --
WHEN I WAS READING HER STORY,
I FELT SHE WAS REALLY READING MY
HEART.
THE THINGS SHE WROTE, THE
FEELING SHE EXPRESSED.
IT WAS WHAT I WAS EXPERIENCING.
SO, READING HER STORY WAS VERY
POWERFUL.
♪
>> THE PHRASE THAT STICKS OUT
FROM YOUR WRITING IS --
I BAMBINI 'METICI'
AND IN YOURS IS -- 
IL MALESSERE DI CHI NON È.
JUST THAT SENSE OF REALLY
DISAPPEARING, WHERE AT LEAST YOU
ARE HAITIAN/AFRICAN -- JUST
DISAPPEARED.
YOU HAD TO REDISCOVER IT.
>> I DID IT THANKS TO AN
IMPORTANT READING WHICH IS,
FRANTZ FANON.
THE WORK OF FRANTZ FANON REALLY
LET ME UNDERSTAND WHAT
WAS GOING ON INSIDE ME AND
INSIDE MY FAMILY.
BECAUSE HE GAVE A NAME TO THE
PSYCHOLOGICAL CONSEQUENCES OF
RACISM WHICH HAVE AFFECTED MY
FAMILY.
A CONCEPT LIKE,
COLONIAL TRAUMA IS FUNDAMENTAL
TO UNDERSTAND WHAT HAS HAPPENED
TO ME, MY FAMILY AND TO
UNDERSTAND RACISM I THINK, 
-- IS SOMETHING THAT
I STARTED TO NAME THAT THANKS TO
FANON.
IT IS REALLY DIFFICULT TO NAME
SOMETHING THAT HAS NOT A
SPECIFIC WORD IN THE ITALIAN
LANGUAGE.
WE STILL HAVE TO INVENT A LOT OF
WORD TO NAME THE RACISM
EXPERIENCES, BECAUSE ITALIAN AS
LANGUAGE HAS A COLONIAL HISTORY
AND WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT,
IN ORDER TO EXPAND THE LANGUAGE.
>> I LIKE THE WAY YOU HAVE
DIVIDED UP YOUR WORK.
YOU TALK ABOUT THE HAITIAN
SYNDROME WHICH I HAD NEVER HEARD
THAT.
I DO NOT KNOW IF THERE WAS
SOMETHING YOU COINED, BUT I'D
NEVER HEARD OF THAT.
I GUESS IT IS PART OF --
AND I LIKED YOUR DOCUMENTS.
>> IT IS A REAL STORY ACTUALLY.
WHEN WE WERE ASKED TO WRITE A
STORY FOR THIS BOOK, I FOUND
TOGETHER SO MANY IMPORTANT
STORIES THAT SOMEHOW MY STORY
COULD BE TOLD THROUGH THE
STORIES OF OTHER WOMEN I HAD THE
CHANCE TO CONDUCT INTERVIEW
WITH.
BUT THE ONE I TOOK HERE, I THINK
I LIKE TO QUOTE MADDALENA THE
FIRST FUTURA.
BECAUSE SHE IS THE FIRST ONE
OF US.
SHE WAS A MIXED GIRL.
HER FATHER WAS NOT AS BAD AS 
MANY OTHER ITALIAN FATHER,
BECAUSE HE WAS PAYING FOR HER
INSTITUTION, BUT HE DISAPPEARED.
SHE DOESN'T KNOW WHERE SHE
COMES FROM, WHERE ARE HER
PARENTS.
FOR HER IT'S DIFFICULT TO DEAL
WITH HER IDENTITY AND SHE ALSO
LIVES IN AN INSTITUTIONAL
VIOLENCE AND OPPRESSION.
BECAUSE THE ORPHANAGES WHERE
THIS MIXED GIRLS AND BOYS WERE
RAISED, WHERE INCREDIBLY
EMBEDDED IN RACIST AND FASCIST
VIOLENCE, PHYSICAL AND
PSYCHOLOGICAL.
SO, THERE WAS A LOT OF COLONIAL
AND POST-COLONIAL TRAUMA THAT
PROBABLY HAS BEEN TRANSMITTED
GENERATIONAL -- ALSO TO OUR
PARENTS, BECAUSE YOU WERE 
TALKING ABOUT THE QUESTIONS.
I ALSO WAS ASKING MANY QUESTIONS
TO MY MOTHER, ESPECIALLY AND
THERE WAS SILENCE, A VERY HEAVY
SILENCE.
JUST AS AN ADULT I REALIZED THAT
WAS THE PAIN SHE EXPERIENCED
BEING RAISED IN A VERY DIFFICULT
AND HOSTILE ENVIRONMENT THAT
SHE DIDN'T WANT ME TO HAVE ANY
OF THAT.
HER SOLUTION WAS FOR ME TO BE
JUST ITALIAN, BUT OBVIOUSLY THAT
IS NOT POSSIBLE.
>> ALMOST 20 YEARS AGO THERE WAS
A SIGNIFICANT BOOK PUBLISHED IN
ITALY, "L'ORDA."
IT WAS ALREADY LATE IN CERTAIN
WAYS BECAUSE IT WAS ALREADY AN
AFRICAN IMMIGRATION TO ITALY.
YOU, CAMILLA, WROTE ABOUT A
DOUBLE CONSCIOUSNESS.
BY DU BOIS, HIS NOTION OF DOUBLE
CONSCIOUSNESS,
HE IS DEALING WITH THE
AFRICAN-AMERICAN -- WHATEVER.
>> AND FANON ACTUALLY, ALSO IN
"BLACK SKIN, WHITE MASKS" WRITES
ABOUT DEALING WITH TWO SYSTEMS
OF REFERENCE.
>> AND ALSO THE IDEA OF BORDER.
YOU ALSO TALK ABOUT BORDER
CONSCIOUSNESS.
YOUR STORY SEEMS TO BOLSTER THIS
DOUBLE CONSCIOUSNESS.
YOU HAD TO CROSS A BORDER,
WHETHER IT WAS PSYCHOLOGICAL OR
EMOTIONAL, SENTIMENTAL --
FIRST FACTUALLY, YOU HAD TO
THINK OF THE FACTS, RIGHT?
YOU HAD TO FIND OUT WHAT WENT
ON IN HAITI.
IF WE CAN TALK ABOUT THE TURNING
POINT BEING 1996 WHEN WE HAD
THE FIRST NONWHITE MISS ITALIA.
DENNY MENDEZ.
THE ITALIANS WERE SCANDALIZED
WHEN THAT HAPPENED.
THAT WAS SORT OF THE FIRST STEP
WHICH THEN HELPED IN SOME WAY,
MAYBE, PAVE THE PATH.
>> THE '90s ARE INTERESTING
TIME TO THINK WITH.
WE HAVE DENNY MENDEZ, SHORTLY
THEREAFTER WE HAVE THE MURDER OF
JERRY MOSLER, AND THEN WE HAVE
ITALY'S FIRST COMPREHENSIVE
IMMIGRATION LAW.
AND THEN TWO YEARS AFTER THAT
WE HAVE A REFORM OF ITALIAN
CITIZENSHIP LAW.
IT IS COMPLICATED BECAUSE WE SEE
A DIALECTIC PROCESS WHERE --
AGAIN, WHEN I WAS DOING SOME
ARCHIVAL RESEARCH FOR MY BOOK,
I DUG UP THIS ARTICLE THAT SAYS
THERE WAS A TIME WHEN
CITIZENSHIP WAS A VERY
STRAIGHTFORWARD MATTER AND NOW
WITH ALL THIS DIVERSITY IT IS
MUCH MORE COMPLEX.
AND THE REALITY IS, ITALIANNESS
HAS ALWAYS BEEN AN OPEN-ENDED
QUESTION.
WE KNOW THIS.
BUT I THINK THE FRAGILITY OF
THIS THING CALLED ITALIANITÀ
WHICH NO ONE CAN ACTUALLY
DEFINE EXCEPT IN RELATION TO
WHAT DOESN'T FIT WITHIN IT.
WE REALLY SEE THAT BEGINNING TO
BE RIPPED APART AT THE SEAMS IN
THE 1980s IN GENERATIVE WAYS.
AT THE SAME TIME, MATCHED BY
THESE MOMENTS OF BACKLASH.
I THINK WE HAVE TO TELL THE
DENNY MENDEZ
STORY ALONG WITH THE
STORY OF A SOUTH AFRICAN
ASYLUM-SEEKER WHO WAS MURDERED
AND WHOSE DEATH WAS USED AS
JUSTIFICATION FOR THE PASSING OF
THIS FIRST IMMIGRATION LAW.
ALL OF THOSE THINGS ARE
HAPPENING, WE SEE THE ENACTMENT
OF STRICTER LAWS GOVERNING WHO
CAN BECOME AN ITALIAN CITIZEN.
THAT MAKE IT HARDER FOR
IMMIGRANTS AND THEIR CHILDREN,
EASIER FOR THE DESCENDENTS OF
ITALIANS IN DIASPORA.
THERE IS A DOUBLING DOWN ON A
RACIALIZED BUT ALSO VERY CLASS
-BASED UNDERSTANDING OF WHO
COUNTS AS LEGITIMATE ITALIAN.
WE ARE STILL IN THE WAKE OF THAT
MOMENT OF THE 1990s.
LIKE YOU SAID, THESE QUESTIONS
ARE NOT NEW BUT THE POLITICAL
RHETORIC OF EMERGENCY AND
NEWNESS IS STILL BEING PUT TO
--
>> THE WHOLE ISSUE OF 
RECUPERATION OF CITIZENSHIP
OF ITALIAN DESCENDENTS HAS ITS
ROOTS IN FASCISM,
A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T REALIZE.
THAT IT WAS A VERY YOUNG --
WHO WANTED,
-- WELL HE WAS PART OF THE
FASCIST REGIME WANTED TO DO
THAT.
>> IT'S INTERESTING TO THINK
ITALY HAD TO DEAL WITH BLACK
CHILDREN BEING ITALIAN SINCE
1909.
SO, WE ONLY THINK ABOUT THE
FASCIST BUT THE LIBERAL,
THE GOVERNMENT HAS TO THINK
ABOUT IT BECAUSE THERE ARE SO
MANY MIXED RACE CHILDREN
INDIGENT IN THE STREETS.
THEY START THINKING, WHAT DO WE
DO WITH THIS MASS OF ITALIANS?
SO, ANTHROPOLOGY COMES IN THE
PICTURE, BECAUSE THE CRITERIA IS
BLOOD. SO, THEY SAY,
IF THE CHILD HAS SIGNS OF
ITALIAN BLOOD, CAN GET ITALIAN
CITIZENSHIP.
THIS IS THE THING WE TALK ABOUT.
AS IF IT IS A NEW PROBLEM.
BUT IT'S NOT.
BUT THIS CONNECTION WITH RACE
AND IDENTITY AND ITALIANNESS IS
VERY OLD.
>> WE CAN LOOK AT PAINTINGS FROM
LATIN AMERICA.
EVEN IF SOMEONE WAS 1/16, 1/32
1/64 ON THIS -- YOU
WOULD STILL SEE THE DRAWING OF A
BLACK MOLE TO INDICATE THIS --
ON A RACE -- STAIN OF BLACKNESS.
SHE IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT AND
THIS IS WHY HER WORK IS SO
IMPORTANT.
SHE IS ALSO CHALLENGING THE IDEA
THAT THIS IS SOMETHING WE CAN
TRACE TO FASCISM BUT IT REALLY
GOES TO THE HEART OF LIBERALISM.
ITALY WAS UNIFYING AS IT WAS
BEGINNING TO COLONIZE.
THERE WAS THE TWO -- THE PROBLEM
OF THE SOUTH THAT WAS UNDERSTOOD
IN RELATION TO THE AFRICAN
COLONIES.
THESE COMPLICATED GEOGRAPHICAL
CIRCUITS OF RACE THINKING THAT
GO BACK TO THE MIDDLE, LATE
19TH CENTURY.
>> THERE WAS THE EXPRESSION
PEOPLE -- IN ITALY OVER -- IT'S
A GOOD CENTURY AND HALF. 
AFRO BEGINS FROM ROME AND BELOW.
SOME PEOPLE THINK IT IS HIGHER
LINGUISTICALLY WHAT IT IS
CALLED --
THE SOUTHERN QUESTION IS ALL
INTERTWINED WITH THIS.
THERE WERE NOT ABLE TO GET OVER
THE SOUTHERN QUESTION.
HOW ARE THEY GONNA DEAL WITH
AFRICAN IMMIGRATION, WHETHER IT
IS NORTHERN OR SUB-SAHARAN
IMMIGRATION?
♪
>> [SPEAKING ITALIAN]
BASICALLY ABOVE ALL FROM ABROAD,
PEOPLE STARTED TO VIEW
THESE BOOKS WITH INTERESTS,
WHICH WERE BASICALLY CALLED
MIGRANT LITERATURE AND IF YOU
ARE BORN AND RAISED IN ITALY,
REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOUR COLOR
IS, IT'S NOT MIGRANT LITERATURE,
RIGHT? OUR FRIEND, IT'S MIGRANT
LITERATURE, BUT OUR FRIEND, IT'S
MIGRANT LITERATURE RIGHT? BUT IF
YOU'RE BORN AND RAISED IN ITALY,
IT'S NOT MIGRANT LITERATURE. AND
THAT ALSO WAS AN ISSUE AND IT'S
INTERESTING THAT FROM ABROAD,
BECAUSE ONE OF THE PEOPLE IS A
FRIEND OF THE INSTITUTE A FRIEND
OF OURS, SHE STARTED IN THE
NINETIES, LATE NINETIES, DEALING
WITH QUOTE UNQUOTE MIGRATION
LITERATURE IN ITALY, DEALING
WITH AFRICANS WHO WERE COMING TO
ITALY AND WRITING IN ITALIAN.
SUCH AS THAT GENERATION THERE,
AND THERE WAS AN ITALIAN CRITIC
WHO I THOUGHT REALLY, I DON'T
KNOW IF YOU KNOW HIS WORK AND
EVENTUALLY, HE SAYS, FORGET
ABOUT IT. LET'S JUST CALL IT
LITERATURA ITALIANA.
IT'S ALL ITALIAN LITERATURE, AND
HE JUST LOOKS AT IT
LINGUISTICALLY AND THAT'S
HOPEFULLY IS OUR FUTURO DIVERSO.
>> I THINK THE POWER OF THE
LANGUAGE HERE IS CRUCIAL BECAUSE
VERY OFTEN, AS I WAS SAYING
EARLIER, WE ARE QUESTIONED ABOUT
OUR ITALIAN, BUT THEN WE USE
ITALIAN TO SHOW OUR ITALIANNESS.
SO IT'S REALLY INTERESTING HOW
WE CAN USE THESE TOOLS AND THESE
WEAPONS THAT WAS IMPOSED ON THE
COLONIES. FOR EXAMPLE, I
REMEMBER SOME PEOPLE TELLING ME
HOW IT WAS FORBIDDEN TO SPEAK
THE LANGUAGE OF THE MOTHER.
THERE WAS SERIOUS PHYSICAL
PUNISHMENT IF YOU WERE HEARD
SPEAKING TIGRINYA OR
SOMALI AND SO ITALIAN
WAS IMPOSED AS LANGUAGE OF THE
FATHER. BUT NOW IT'S INTERESTING
HOW ITALIAN CAN BE RECLAIMED TO
SHOW ANTI-COLONIAL RESISTANCE IN
A WAY. 
>> I CONFRONTED MY EXPERIENCE
WITH OTHER AFRO-ITALIAN PEOPLE
AND IN SEVERAL FAMILIES THEY
FORGOT THE OTHER LANGUAGES AND
IN MY CASE ITALIAN WAS IMPOSED
BY MY ITALIAN SPEAKING MOTHER TO
MY FATHER. BUT I THINK THAT THE
IMPOSITION OF THE LANGUAGE STILL
A PHENOMENON IN THIS NEW ITALIAN
FAMILIES AND THIS CREATES AT THE
SAME TIME, ITALIAN AS THE WEAPON
WHO QUESTION THE ITALIANNESS BUT
AT THE SAME TIME, THE PROBLEM TO
FIND THE WORD TO DO THIS WORK. 
>> YEAH. THERE'S AN UNCANNY
ANALOGY HERE, AND IT'S AN
ANALOGY, IT'S NOT, I'M BY NO
MEANS AM I PUTTING THEM IN ON
THE SAME LEVEL EVEN THOUGH THE
ITALIAN IMMIGRANT IN THIS
COUNTRY AT THE BEGINNING OF THE
20TH CENTURY WENT THROUGH SOME
PRETTY HORRIBLE THINGS. I THINK
THERE ARE TWO GROUPS, IF
WHATEVER WE WANT TO CALL THEM,
TWO ETHNICITIES HAVE REALLY
SUFFERED MORE ATROCITIES THAN
OTHERS, AND THAT IS BASICALLY
THE AFRICAN HYPHENATE AND THE
JEW HYPHENATE, OR THE HYPHENATE
JEW, DEPENDING ON WHERE THEY ARE
WITH OF COURSE, GENOCIDE IN THE
CASE OF JEWS, BUT ALSO INDIRECT
AND DIRECT GENOCIDE THROUGH
SLAVERY OF THE AFRICAN. 
>> AND ACTUAL GENOCIDES THAT
TOOK PLACE ON THE AFRICAN
CONTINENT. 
>> RIGHT, RIGHT. BUT IT'S
UNCANNY THAT THERE ARE THESE
ANALOGIES, LOSS OF LANGUAGE, IN
THE ITALIAN CASE IT WAS OFTEN
THE SECOND GENERATION SORT OF
MADE SURE THAT THEY DIDN'T
LEARN, SOME OF THEM, DIDN'T
LEARN THE LANGUAGE IN SOME CASES
IT WAS APPARENT, BUT IT WAS ALSO
A DIALECT THAT WAS INVOLVED. AND
I WONDER WHAT IT WAS LIKE TO
GROW UP AMONG THIS SO-CALLED,
QUOTE UNQUOTE ITALIANS, YOU
KNOW, AND LET ME OPEN A
PARENTHESES HERE MY COLLEAGUE
JOE SCIORRA,
AND ANOTHER FRIEND OF
OURS ON THE WEST COAST DID A
BOOK ON NEW ITALIAN MIGRATION.
NEW ITALIAN MIGRATIONS. TWO
VOLUMES. ONE IS HISTORY AND
POLITICS, AND THE OTHER ONE IS
ART AND CULTURE. AND IN THE
FIRST VOLUME, THEY TALK ABOUT
THE NOTION OF REAL ITALIANS,
WHICH IS SOMETHING THAT, OF
COURSE, YOU GUYS GO THROUGH AS
WELL, RIGHT? AND IT'S THE
ITALIAN BORN AND EDUCATED IN
ITALY WHO COME TO THE UNITED
STATES AND TALK ABOUT WHAT'S
REAL ITALIANS AND NOT REAL
ITALIANS. THERE'S THIS FALSE
CATEGORY, THIS ARBITRARY
CATEGORY CALLED REAL. 
>> YOU KNOW, I HAVE TO SAY, I
HAVE MY OWN KIND OF BIZARRE
ENTREE INTO THIS BECAUSE, SO,
YOU KNOW, MY MOTHER CAME TO THE
U.S. IN THE 70s AND SO BECAUSE
SHE WAS SORT OF HAD A VERY
DIFFERENT KIND OF EXPERIENCE
THAN THE KIND OF TYPICAL ITALIAN
AMERICAN, YOU KNOW, EXPERIENCE.
I GREW UP SPEAKING ITALIAN
BEFORE I SPOKE ENGLISH. YOU
KNOW, MY MOM ONLY SPOKE TO ME IN
ITALIAN, AND THEN I WENT TO
SCHOOL ON THE EAST COAST IN
RHODE ISLAND AND I REMEMBER
SOMEONE SAYING, YOU'RE GONNA
LOVE PROVIDENCE. HUGE ITALIAN
COMMUNITY YOU HAVE TO GO TO, WAS
IT FEDERAL, FEDERAL HILL? AND I
SHOW UP TO FEDERAL HILL AND I
WALK AROUND AND I'M LIKE,
WHAT'S, I DON'T UNDERSTAND
ANYTHING THEY'RE SAYING. THEY'RE
NOT- AND I CAUGHT MYSELF,
THEY'RE NOT REAL ITALIANS.
[LAUGHTER]
>> RIGHT. AND THIS WAS VERY
CONFUSING FOR ME BECAUSE ALSO,
YOU KNOW, KIND OF SAN FRANCISCO,
ITALIAN AMERICAN CULTURE IS ALSO
VERY DISTINCT FROM EAST COAST.
SO I HAD A DOUBLE CULTURE SHOCK.
BUT YOU KNOW IT'S INTERESTING
THIS QUESTION OF LANGUAGE AND
REAL ITALIANS, BECAUSE, YOU
KNOW, WHAT IT MEANS TO USE A
LANGUAGE TRANSGRESSIVELY IS
SOMETHING THAT I THINK WE ALSO
SEE IN THE USE SOLELY
CITIZENSHIP MOVEMENT IN ITALY
WHERE YOU HAVE, YOU KNOW, THIS
GENERATION OF YOUNG PEOPLE OF
COLOR, INCLUDING MANY PEOPLE OF
AFRICAN, YOU KNOW, YOUNG PEOPLE
OF AFRICAN DESCENT BUT BETWEEN,
YOU KNOW, WHAT IS IT, 800,000
AND A MILLION YOUNG PEOPLE WHO
ARE DISENFRANCHISED BY ITALY
CITIZENSHIP LAWS. AND THEY'RE
FIGHTING BACK AGAINST A
XENOPHOBIC PUBLIC THAT SAYS, NO
MATTER WHAT YOU WILL ALWAYS BE
IMMIGRANTS. AND THEY'RE SAYING,
YOU KNOW, LOOK, WE'RE ACTUALLY,
WE'RE JUST AS ITALIAN AS YOU
ARE. WE SPEAK THE LANGUAGE, WE
SPEAK DIALECT, WE HAVE THIS
CULTURAL KNOWLEDGE, AND AS A
POLITICAL STRATEGY IT'S
INCREDIBLE. IT'S ASTUTE AND IT'S
REALLY SHARP AND IT'S VERY
SUBVERSIVE. AND AT THE SAME TIME
IT OPENS UP ALL THESE REALLY
COMPLICATED QUESTIONS ABOUT, YOU
KNOW, ACTUALLY WHAT IS THIS
THING CALLED ITALIANNESS, YOU
KNOW, BECAUSE EVEN IN TRYING TO
CONTEST IT WE ARE REPRODUCING IT
IN DIFFERENT WAYS. AND SO THE
QUESTION, YOU KNOW, IT'S A
BROADER QUESTION AGAIN OF HOW TO
THINK, YOU KNOW, KIND OF A
BORDER CONSCIOUSNESS WHERE WE
DON'T HAVE TO MAKE AN APPEAL TO
THAT CATEGORY AT ALL. BUT IT'S
SO COMPLEX. 
>> YOU SAY YOU TEACH BLACK
ITALIA, SO WHAT DO YOU TEACH? IS
IT SORT OF A POP PERI OR ARE YOU
DOING SOMETHING IN LIT,
SOMETHING IN FILM, SOMETHING IN
MORE SOCIAL SCIENCE? 
>> YEAH, IT WAS CONCEIVED AS A
COURSE BECAUSE FROM NEW YORK
THEY REALIZED THAT STUDENTS
GOING TO FLORENCE, THEY WENT
WITH THIS IDEAL FLORENCE,
GELATO, PIZZA, ARTE, DANTE, AND
THEN THEY ARRIVE IN FLORENCE AND
THEY EXPERIENCE RACISM,
HOMOPHOBIA, SEXISM. AND SO THERE
WAS A BIG SHOCK, ESPECIALLY IN
TERMS OF RACE AND WERE BEING
TOLD VERY OFTEN. AND SO THEY
THOUGHT IT WAS IMPORTANT MAYBE
TO CREATE A COURSE THAT COULD
GIVE THE VOCABULARY AND THE
KNOWLEDGE TO EXPLAIN THIS
RACIALIZED HISTORY. AND SO WE
START FROM SCIENTIFIC RACISM OF
THE 1800s AND WE END UP BEING-
SO WE REALLY GO, IT'S A LONG
COURSE. IT'S 14 WEEKS. SO YEAH,
WE START FROM THE - AND THE
DEBATE, AND WE GO THROUGH
COLONIALISM A LOT.
INTERESTINGLY, I TAKE THE
STUDENTS TO ROME TO SEE THE
HERITAGE OF THE FASCIST
MONUMENT, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, WE
HAVE A NUMBER OF SHOCKING
FASCIST MONUMENTS COMPLETELY
DECONTEXTUALIZE. THERE IS
NOTHING, ESPECIALLY IN ROME. I
THINK ABOUT MUSSOLINI THAT IS
INCONCEIVABLE IN THE REST OF
EUROPE. WHY IS THERE SO
CONTEXTUALIZED. SO YEAH, WE GO
THROUGH COLONIALISM, BUT THEN WE
ALSO, I ALSO TRY TO REALLY GIVE
THEM A HINT OF TODAY. AND SO WE
TALK A LOT ABOUT IMMIGRATION
LAWS, SHOOTING IN MACHERATA,
POLICE BRUTALITY, AND RACIAL
VIOLENCE IN ITALY. AND SO IT'S
IMPORTANT FOR THEM TO SEE
SIMILARITIES, BUT ALSO MASSIVE
DIFFERENCES IN HOW RACE IS
PERFORMED IN EUROPE AND IN
ITALY. SO THAT'S WHY WE STARTED
TO DEVELOP THIS CONCEPT OF BLACK
EUROPE IS SO IMPORTANT BECAUSE
ALTHOUGH THE U.S. DOES A LOT, WE
ALSO NOTICED THAT WE ARE VERY
DIFFERENT AND IT'S IMPORTANT TO
BE HIGHLIGHTED.
IGIABA ALWAYS STRESSES
HOW RESISTANT IS THE ITALIAN
EDITORIAL TO PUBLISH THIS KIND
OF BOOKS WRITTEN BY NONWHITE
ITALIAN. SO SHE SAYS THERE'S
BEEN AN INCREDIBLE DIFFICULT
STRUGGLE FOR US TO BREAK THIS
WALL AND STILL IT'S VERY, IT'S
VERY THICK. 
>> THERE STILL REIGNS THE
NOTION OF THE REAL ITALIAN AND
THE REAL ITALIAN CAN'T BE THE
AFRICAN-ITALIAN, CAN'T BE THE
ITALIAN-ARGENTINIAN WHO WRITES
IN ITALIAN AND WANTS TO PUBLISH,
YOU KNOW, AND SO ON AND SO
FORTH. THEY MAY BE ABLE TO
PUBLISH SOME TIMES, BUT WITHIN
THAT NOTION OF THE LITERARY
CANON, THEY'RE NOT RECOGNIZED.
IT GOES BACK TO 1885 LITERATURE
WRITTEN IN THE ITALIAN LANGUAGE,
BUT HAS NOT EVER REALLY JUST
BEEN, QUOTE UNQUOTE ITALIAN
LITERATURE. IT ALWAYS HAS SOME
SORT OF LABEL TO IT AND SO ON
AND SO FORTH. AND IT'S THE SAME
THING. WE'VE GOT TO GET TO THAT
POINT WHERE IT'S JUST ITALIAN
LITERATURE. OH, BY THE WAY, IT'S
ALSO AFRICAN-ITALIAN. 
>> AND I'D SAY, ON THE OTHER
HAND, AFRO-ITALIAN, OR RATHER
BLACK-ITALIAN ARE NOT
SUFFICIENTLY BLACK IN ORDER TO
BE PUBLISHED AS BLACK AUTHORS
BECAUSE THEY SPEAK ITALIAN SO AS
AN ANTI-RACIST ACTIVIST, WHAT I
SEE IS THAT OFTEN THERE IS A
STANDARDIZATION OF THE BLACK
PERSON IN ITALY, WHICH CAN BE
ACCEPTED ONLY AS A REFUGEE JUST
LANDED ON THE ITALIAN COAST.
WHILE IF THERE IS A
BLACK-ITALIAN SPEAKING ITALIAN
TAKING THE FLOOR AND THERE'S
SOMETHING IN THIS STEREOTYPE OF
THE BLACK PERSON WHO CRASH. AND
I THINK WE HAVE ANOTHER PROBLEM
THERE BECAUSE THERE'S ALSO A WAY
TO STRUGGLE AGAINST RACISM IN
ITALY, WHICH IS QUITE
PROBLEMATIC ACTUALLY, BECAUSE WE
OFTEN SEE WHITE ANTI-RACIST
CONTEXT LOOKING FOR THE
PROTAGONISM OF BLACK PEOPLE AND
ACTUALLY WHAT WE ARE SEEING WITH
THIS BOOK IS THESE PEOPLE ARE
ALREADY THERE. THEY ALREADY
SPEAK. THE FACT IS, THE PROBLEM
IS THAT WHO IS LISTENING. SO
THEY ARE -- WE --  ASKING WHITE
ITALIAN PEOPLE TO LEAVE THE
SPACE IN LITERATURE AND POLITICS
AND SO ON AND THAT'S A PROBLEM,
IS A PROBLEM OF POWER.
>> AND I THINK THAT THAT'S WHY,
YOU KNOW, WHEN WE LOOK AT THIS
KIND OF FLORESCENCE OF, YOU
KNOW, BLACK-ITALIAN POLITICS AND
CULTURAL PRODUCTION IT'S
HAPPENED IN ALL OF THESE
ALTERNATIVE SPACES, RIGHT?
THROUGH, YOU KNOW, INDEPENDENT
LITERATURE, INDEPENDENT FILM,
YOU KNOW, SOCIAL MEDIA HAS
PLAYED A HUGE ROLE BECAUSE, YOU
KNOW, PEOPLE HAVE BECOME SO FED
UP WITH THE KIND OF, THE
PATRONIZING TONE OF POLITICAL
ORGANIZING IN THESE MORE
TRADITIONAL SPACES, LIKE THE
POLITICAL PARTIES, LIKE THE
LABOR UNIONS. AND SO PEOPLE HAVE
SORT OF STARTED TO CREATE THESE
ALTERNATIVE SPACES OF AUTONOMY
RIGHT? THESE ARE OUR VOICES.
THESE ARE OUR STORIES. YOU KNOW,
WE'RE NOT GOING TO PACKAGE IT
INTO, YOU KNOW, A NICE
SYMPATHETIC NARRATIVE, RIGHT?
THAT SORT OF ABSOLVES YOU WHITE
ITALIANS OF ANY OF YOUR GUILT
BECAUSE YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T WANT
TO BE ACCUSED OF RACISM. AND SO
I THINK THAT'S WHY, YOU KNOW,
SOME AMAZING THINGS HAVE REALLY
BEEN HAPPENING PRECISELY BECAUSE
PEOPLE ARE SAYING, YOU KNOW,
WE'RE NOT GOING TO WAIT TO BE
REPRESENTED. 
>> YEAH.
THE PRESS IS EFFEQU IN
FLORENCE AND IT'S A YOUNG PRESS,
YOUNG COUPLE THAT ARE PUBLISHING
SOME VERY INTERESTING SLASH
SIGNIFICANT BOOKS, I THINK
REALLY CREATING TO IT A NATIONAL
DISCUSSION. YOU PREFER
BLACK-ITALIAN, DON'T YOU?
>> I DON'T PERCEIVE MYSELF AS A
BLACK-ITALIAN ACTUALLY. I NAMED
MYSELF AS AN AFRO- ITALIAN. 
>> AFRO. 
>> FOR ME, IT'S BLACK ITALIAN.
>> YEAH, AND YOU? 
>> IT DEPENDS ON THE CONTEXT
AND WHO I'M WITH. IT'S ALWAYS
SHIFTING, BUT IN ITALY, I'LL SAY
BLACK-ITALIAN. 
>> SO EVEN TERMINOLOGY BECOMES
SIGNIFICANT AND PROBLEMATIC,
RIGHT? 
>> AND THERE'S A LOT OF DEBATE,
YOU KNOW, ON THE GROUND IN THESE
COMMUNITIES IN ITALY ABOUT, YOU
KNOW, THE TERMS OF
SELF-IDENTIFICATIONS. 
>> WELL THERE WAS HERE IN THE
UNITED STATES, YOU KNOW. I WANT
TO THANK YOU GUYS FOR COMING AND
WE'RE GOING TO CONTINUE THIS
CONVERSATION. 
>> THANK YOU SO MUCH. 
>> THANK YOU. 
♪
>> CANDICE, WELCOME TO ITALICS.
>> THANK YOU. 
>> SO YOU WROTE A REVIEW OF THE
BOOK FUTURE: IL DOMANI NARRATO
DALE VOCI DI OGGI AND YOU WROTE
IT FOR A WEBSITE CALLED THE
DREAMING MACHINE. IT'S A
WONDERFUL WEBSITE THAT IS
BILINGUAL, BICULTURAL, AND IT
WAS BASICALLY SET UP BY A DEAR
FRIEND OF OURS, PINA PICCOLO,
WHO IS NOW LIVING IN ITALY.
>> YES. SO PINA REACHED OUT TO
ME ABOUT WRITING A REVIEW FOR
FUTURE AS WELL AS A TRANSLATION.
AND WE IN GENERAL HAVE BEEN
SPEAKING ON TOPICS RELATED TO
AFRO-ITALIANS AND IMMIGRATION
AND CITIZENSHIP IN ITALY. AND I
HAD THE GREAT OPPORTUNITY OF
READING THE BOOK AND JUST
WRITING THIS REVIEW THAT REALLY
GOES DEEP INTO EACH OF THE 11
STORIES TO REALLY JUST GIVE THE
READER A TASTE OF THE JOURNEY
THROUGHOUT THE BOOK. 
>> YOU'RE RESPONSIBLE. IT'S
YOUR GLORY FOR OUR FRIENDS FROM
ITALY FOR BEING HERE. 
>> IT'S GREAT THAT THIS IS THE
DEBUT PRESENTATION OF FUTURE
OUTSIDE OF THE U.S. ESPECIALLY
ONLY SO FEW MONTHS AFTER ITS
FIRST PUBLICATION. IT'S A GREAT
BOOK TO BUILD A BRIDGE BETWEEN
THE DIASPORA AS AN AFRICAN
AMERICAN WOMAN, AS CAMILLA HAD
SHARED AS A AFRICAN AMERICAN
ITALIAN WOMAN. AND IT'S REALLY
IMPORTANT THAT THESE DIALOGUES
TAKE PLACE CAUSE THERE'S SO MUCH
TO LEARN FROM AFRO-ITALIAN WOMAN
JUST AS CAMILLA HAD WRITTEN IN
HER PREFACE. 
>> AND YOUR OWN EXPERIENCE,
BECAUSE YOU'RE CANDICE WHITNEY.
THERE'S NO VOWEL AT THE END OF
YOUR NAME. YOU ARE NOT OF
ITALIAN ORIGIN, BUT YOU LIVED IN
ITALY, YOU DID YOUR JUNIOR YEAR
ABROAD. THEN YOU WENT BACK AND
LIVED, YOU HAD A FELLOWSHIP, YOU
HAD A FULBRIGHT. WAS IT? SO
YOU'VE SPENT SOME TIME IN ITALY
AS AN AFRICAN AMERICAN WOMAN. 
>> YES. SIMILARLY TO CAMILLA, I
ALSO REALLY STARTED TO
EXPERIENCE RACE AND RACISM IN
ITALY. DIFFERENT FROM WHAT I'VE
EXPERIENCED IN THE U.S.
DEFINITELY MUCH MORE NUANCED. I
THINK I WAS VERY STRUCK BY JUST
THE VISIBILITY OF RACISM. ONE
EXAMPLE THAT COMES TO MIND IS
WITH THE, THE VENDITORI
AMBULANTI OR WHEN
PEOPLE WILL ASK YOU, YES,
YOU KNOW, HOW WELL DO YOU - AND
EVEN THOUGH I'M AN AMERICAN
WOMAN EXPERIENCING THAT IN MY
MIND, I WAS LIKE, HOW CAN THAT
BE IF YOU'RE BORN AND RAISED
HERE OR, YOU KNOW, YOU'VE GROWN
UP HERE YOUR WHOLE LIFE AND YOU
RECEIVED THAT QUESTION. AND THEN
ALSO IN JUST MORE SUBTLE SENSES,
NAMING NEIGHBORHOODS AFTER
ITALIAN COLONIES, SUCH AS - I
LIVED IN THE ZONA OF BOLOGNA AND
THAT IS SOMETHING WHERE IT'S
SIGNIFICANTLY MORE SUBTLE WITH
THE RELATIONSHIP TO COLONIALISM
IN ITALY WHEN YOU DON'T KNOW
WHAT - MEANS OR IT'S NOT OPENLY
SPOKEN ABOUT. 
>> YOUR INTEREST IN ITALY
GOES BACK TO YOUR UNDERGRADUATE
DAYS WHERE YOU WERE A DOUBLE
MAJOR ANTHROPOLOGY AND ITALIAN.
AND YOU'RE STUDYING ITALIAN AND
I'M ASSUMING YOU'RE READING
DANTE, BOCCACCIO, AND SO ON AND
SO FORTH. AND THEN YOU GO TO
ITALY AND YOU SEE ANOTHER SIDE
OF ITALIAN CULTURE, RIGHT? 
>> WELL, SO YES, I STUDIED
ANTHROPOLOGY AND ITALIAN AT
MOUNT HOLYOKE COLLEGE. I STUDIED
WITH - AND THEIR COURSES WERE
FABULOUS BECAUSE THEY REALLY
FOCUSED ON BRINGING STUDENTS TO
CONTEMPORARY ITALY IN WHAT TOOK
PLACE. SO IN MY LESSONS, I
REMEMBER DURING THE PERIODS OF
ELECTIONS WE WOULD FOLLOW THE
ELECTIONS. WE WOULD WATCH FILMS
AS WELL. SO WE DID A LOT MORE OF
CONTEMPORARY ITALY. AND I
REMEMBER JUST WONDERING,
ESPECIALLY WHEN WE WERE
FOLLOWING THE ELECTIONS, WHAT
MUST IT BE LIKE TO LIVE THERE?
WHEN I WOULD SEE BLACKNESS AND
IMMIGRATION BE SO OBJECTIFIED
AND TOOLS DURING POLITICAL
ELECTIONS. IT JUST MADE ME
REALLY CURIOUS AND IT MADE ME
WANT TO GO TO ITALY AND LEARN
MORE. AND THAT'S REALLY WHERE A
LOT OF THIS INTEREST STEMS FROM.
SO I ACTUALLY MET PINA PICCOLA
AND CAMILLA HAWTHORNE THE
SAME NIGHT. WE WERE AT AN EVENT
SPECIFICALLY RELATED TO
MIGRATION A FEW YEARS AGO. AND
PINA AND I WERE IN SIMILAR
CIRCLES AND A PROFESSOR AT
THE UNIVERSITY OF BOLOGNA HAD
LET US KNOW THAT WE WERE BOTH
GOING TO BE AT THE EVENT. AND
THEN WITH CAMILLA, I HAD LEARNED
AT THE EVENT ABOUT HER RESEARCH
AND I WAS LIKE, WAIT, I'M
STUDYING SOMETHING VERY SIMILAR.
WE MET DURING MY FULBRIGHT YEAR,
SO I WAS RESEARCHING BUSINESSES
OWNED BY AFRICAN WOMAN AND HOW
PERSONHOOD IMPACTED THEIR
MARKETING STRATEGIES AND THINGS
LIKE THAT. SO WHEN I LEARNED
ABOUT CAMILLA'S RESEARCH IT
REALLY RESONATED WITH THE
PROJECT I WAS WORKING ON. 
>> IS THAT PROJECT STILL IN THE
WORKS? ARE WE GOING TO SEE
SOMETHING? 
>> I FEEL LIKE IT'S ALWAYS IN
THE WORKS. I WROTE NUMEROUS
ARTICLES THROUGHOUT MY
EXPERIENCE AND I'VE POSTED THOSE
ON MY WEBSITE. 
>> AND THIS IS BUSINESSES OWNED
BY AFRICAN WOMEN IN ITALY. 
>> YES. AND THE TOPIC I UNPACK,
I EXPANDED ON IT IN RELATION TO
CITIZENSHIP AND JUST OTHER
PROJECTS BY IMMIGRANTS OR
ITALIAN YOUTH THAT FOCUSED ON
IMMIGRANTS OR NONWHITE ITALIANS.
BUT I FEEL AS IF THE PROJECT IS
STILL ALWAYS HERE AND I'M ALWAYS
WORKING ON IT EVEN WITH BRINGING
TOGETHER THIS EVENT. 
>> SO THIS BRINGS UP A QUESTION
OF IDENTITY TO A CERTAIN EXTENT,
BECAUSE ESPECIALLY IF FIVE YEARS
FROM NOW WE'RE SITTING HERE AND
YOU'RE STILL DOING THE SAME
THING, THEN WE HAVE TO TALK
ABOUT IDENTITY AND WHO YOU ARE,
RIGHT? BECAUSE, WE'VE GONE
BEYOND BIOLOGY BEING THE
DECIDING FACTOR FOR IDENTITY,
RIGHT? I MEAN, IT'S A SOCIAL
CONSTRUCT. AND SO NOW YOUR
INVOLVEMENT IN ITALY, I MEAN, WE
MIGHT JUST HAVE TO HYPHENATE YOU
AND CALL YOU AN
ITALIAN-AMERICAN OR AN
AFRICAN-ITALIAN DEPENDING ON OUR
PERSPECTIVE. I MEAN, YOU'VE
REALLY INVESTED IN IT. 
>> THERE'S A LOT OF ITALY
WITHIN MY DAILY PRACTICES, YOU
KNOW, ENJOYING A CAFÉ, ENJOYING
THAT, OR, YOU KNOW, WHEN I EAT,
I LIKE TO JUST EAT. BUT, I DO
IDENTIFY STILL AS AFRICAN
AMERICAN. LIKE I SAID BEFORE, I
REALLY VIEW MY INTEREST IS JUST
BUILDING THAT BRIDGE BETWEEN THE
DIASPORAS AND BRINGING OUT WHAT
WE CAN ALL LEARN FROM EACH OTHER
AND I DO FEEL AS IF THAT IN
TERMS OF RACE STUDIES THERE IS A
PRIVILEGE COMING FROM THE U.S.
ESPECIALLY AS AN AFRICAN
AMERICAN WOMAN. AND IT'S REALLY
IMPORTANT TO LEARN FROM THE
HISTORIES OF SCHOLARS AND WOMEN
WHO ARE ALSO PART OF THE AFRICAN
DIASPORA. AND THERE ARE JUST SO
MANY SIMILARITIES AS WELL AS
DIFFERENCES. IT WAS AMAZING TO
LISTEN TO JUST THE DIFFERENT
RELATIONSHIPS WITH BLACKNESS OR
AFRO BETWEEN MARIE, CAMILLA, AND
ANGELICA. AND THEN SAME WITH
JUST LEARNING ABOUT WHEN MARIE
SHARED ABOUT THE CITIZENSHIP LAW
AND HOW HER MOTHER HAD LOST HER
CITIZENSHIP WHEN SHE MARRIED HER
FATHER. 
>> THERE'S A BOOK COMING OUT
CALLED DIXIE'S ITALIANS AND I
DON'T KNOW IF YOU'VE SEEN THE
REFERENCE TO IT, IT'S BRAND NEW.
IT'S COMING OUT FROM THE
SOUTHERN PRESS AND IT'S ABOUT
THE ITALIANS IN THE SOUTH AND
THE JIM CROW ERA, AND THERE'S A
CHAPTER IN THERE ABOUT
MISCEGENATION AND HOW THERE'S
THIS PERSON FROM OUT, THIS
AFRICAN AMERICAN MAN FROM
ALABAMA WHO IS FIRST TRIED AND
FOUND GUILTY BECAUSE HE QUOTE
UNQUOTE, MARRIES A WHITE WOMAN
OR QUOTE UNQUOTE WHITE WOMAN,
AND THEN HE APPEALS. AND HE'S
ABSOLVED BECAUSE SHE WAS
SICILIAN ORIGIN, AND THEREFORE,
I FORGET NOW HOW IT'S STATED,
BUT SOMETHING, AND THEREFORE IT
COULD NOT BE PROVEN TO BE WHITE
OR SOMETHING TO THAT EFFECT. IT
WAS VERY INTERESTING. BUT THAT
WHOLE ISSUE, YOU KNOW THAT I
THINK ITALIAN AMERICANS OF TODAY
HAVE SOMEHOW FORGOTTEN OR THEY
NEVER LEARNED ABOUT IT, THAT
PART OF THE HISTORY. 
>> DEFINITELY. I THINK
CONNECTING THOSE HISTORIES IS
REALLY IMPORTANT FOR COMMUNITY
BUILDING, KNOWLEDGE BUILDING
AND, YOU KNOW, LIKE WE'VE BEEN
SAYING, OH, THEY CAN'T BE
FORGOTTEN. 
>> SO NOW YOU'RE TRANSLATING.
YOU'RE ENGAGED IN A PROJECT OF
TRANSLATION? 
>> YES. SO I'VE STARTED
TRANSLATING THIS ANTHOLOGY. IT
STARTED WITH THE FIRST
TRANSLATION PUBLISHED ON THE
DREAMING MACHINE AND SO NOW I'M
WORKING ON THE REST OF THE
ANTHOLOGY. WHAT'S AVAILABLE ON
THE DREAMING MACHINE IS THE
MARATHON CONTINUES. 
>> THAT'S GOOD. SO EVENTUALLY
THIS WILL BE AVAILABLE? 
>> YES. THAT IS THE PLAN. SO
JUST READING, WRITING, READING,
WRITING, EDITING. 
>> BECAUSE IT'S IMPORTANT. I
MEAN, I THINK, YOU KNOW, THE
CONVERSATION WE JUST WITNESSED
WAS REALLY ENLIGHTENING AND I
MEAN, IT'S COMPLICATED ENOUGH
BEING A HYPHENATED AMERICAN,
WHATEVER, THEN WHEN YOU'RE IN A
SOCIETY THAT, IN SPITE OF THE
SOUTHERN QUESTION, NORTH SOUTH,
HAS ALWAYS CONSIDERED ITSELF AT
LEAST AS A COLLECTIVE
CONSCIOUSNESS, AS QUOTE UNQUOTE
WHITE. AND NOW ALL OF A SUDDEN
THERE ARE OVER A MILLION
AFRICANS OF DIFFERENT
GENERATIONS RUNNING AROUND IN
ITALY. YOU KNOW, IT'S LIKE, OH,
WAIT A SECOND. 
>> BUT TURNING TO TRANSLATION,
I DO THINK THERE'S AN APPETITE
FOR THIS TYPE OF ANTHOLOGY.
BEYOND BABYLON WAS RECENTLY
TRANSLATED. THAT WAS ONE OF
IGIABA SCEGO'S FIRST BOOKS AND
RECENTLY WAS SHORTLISTED FOR A
PEN TRANSLATION PRIZE AND JUST
WITH THAT BOOK IT GOES ACROSS
THE DIASPORAS FROM ARGENTINA,
ITALY, AFRICA. SO THERE'S A LOT,
I THINK IN GENERAL THERE'S AN
APPETITE AND CURIOSITY FOR IT. 
>> AND THAT'S THE OTHER ISSUE
YOU MENTIONED IT, THAT IT GOES
ALL OVER. IT'S NOT JUST THE
UNITED STATES, NOT JUST NORTH
AMERICA OR IN MARIE'S CASE, THE
CARIBBEAN, BUT IT'S ACTUALLY
OTHER PARTS OF AMERICA. AND WE
ACTUALLY HAVE DEALT WITH THAT IN
ITALIAN AMERICAN STUDIES. AT ONE
POINT, WE SORT OF CAUGHT
OURSELVES AND SAID, WELL, MAYBE
THIS TERM ITALIAN AMERICAN HAS
TO BE ENLARGED, HAS TO BE A MUCH
LARGER TERM. AND WE HAVE TO GO
FROM THE NORTH POLE TO THE SOUTH
POLE. 
>> YEAH. I MEAN, EVEN FOR THIS
ANTHOLOGY, THE BEAUTY OF IT IS
IT FEATURES THE VOICES OF WOMEN
FROM ACROSS THE PENINSULA. FOR
EXAMPLE, - SHE'S BASED OR WAS
BORN AND RAISED IN NAPLES, IN A
SMALL TOWN OUTSIDE, SO IT'S
GREAT TO LEARN THE EXPERIENCES
OF WOMEN FROM ACROSS THE
PENINSULA, NOT JUST, LET'S SAY
NORTHERN ITALY AS WELL, BECAUSE
THERE ARE JUST NUANCES IN EVERY
REGION AND CITY. I'VE WRITTEN
ANOTHER ARTICLE ON THE DREAMING
MACHINE THAT UNPACKS A PRIVILEGE
IN ITALY. AND I WAS TAKING THAT
FROM A STANCE AS AN AFRICAN
AMERICAN WOMAN, BUT REALLY MORE
LIKE, WHAT CAN I TAKE A STEP
BACK FROM AND LEARN ABOUT
COLORBLINDNESS IN ITALY AND WHAT
TYPES OF DISCOURSES CAN WE HAVE
IN ITALIAN? SO, I READ ABOUT
DIFFERENT PRIVILEGES FROM RACE,
GENDER, LANGUAGE AS WELL. IT'S
REALLY IMPORTANT TO LEVERAGE
THAT PRIVILEGE AND BUILD THESE
CONVERSATIONS. 
>> THANK YOU FOR STAYING WITH
US. 
>> THANK YOU. 
♪
>> THANKS FOR WATCHING THIS
EPISODE OF ITALICS. I'M ANTHONY
TAMBURRI. ARRIVEDERCI ALLA
PROSSIMA PUNTATA.
♪ [THEME MUSIC] ♪
