AMY GOODMAN: President Trump met with Sisi
on Monday, meeting with King Abdullah of Jordan
on Wednesday at the White House, saying they’re
not raising the issue of human rights anymore.
Your thoughts on this, and then also, of course,
Israel-Palestine?
NOAM CHOMSKY: Well, raising the issue of human
rights is—it means something, but not very
much, because—take, say, Saudi Arabia, one
of the worst human rights violators in the
world.
It’s our darling.
You know, they pour weapons in.
Obama sold them more weapons than, I think,
any predecessor.
Sisi is particularly disgraceful.
His dictatorship has driven Egypt into some
of its worst days.
The United States kind of supported him, but
not openly and vigorously the way Trump is
doing.
Trump is—it’s a little bit like what you
said about the Cabinet.
It’s kind of like a parody of what goes
on all the time.
Usual thing is to support brutal dictators,
but not with enthusiasm, and with some tapping
on the wrist, saying, "Look, what you’re
doing is not very nice," and so on.
Here, it’s saying, "You’re great.
We love you.
You know, go ahead and torture and murder
people."
That’s—it’s a terrible blow to the people
of Egypt.
But Jordan is sort of a mixed story.
But these steps are very regressive.
With regard to Israel-Palestine, actually,
Trump has pulled back from his original position.
But his original position that—he and his
administration—was that there’s nothing
wrong with the settlements.
They’re not an obstacle to peace.
If you look at the way the settlements have
been treated over the years—of course, they’re
totally illegal.
They’re destroying any hope for Palestinian
rights.
There’s a systematic Israeli program, very
systematic.
It’s been going on since 1967.
It’s to try to quietly take over every part
of the West Bank that is of any value to them,
while excluding the areas of Palestinian population
concentration.
So they’re not going to take over Nablus
or Tulkarm, but take over everything that’s
of significance and value, leave dozens, maybe
even hundreds, of isolated enclaves and Palestinian
population concentrations, which can kind
of rot on the vine.
Maybe the people will leave.
Whatever happens, we don’t care.
That’s been going on consistently.
Now, if you go back to about 1980, the U.S.
joined the world not only in calling them
illegal, but in demanding that they be dismantled.
Go back to the U.N. Security Council resolutions,
I think 465, approximately.
So, you have to dismantle the illegal settlements.
That has been weakened over the years.
So, under Reagan, they stop—
AMY GOODMAN: Now you have David Friedman,
the U.S. ambassador to Israel, who’s been
approved—right?—who raised money for the
settlements.
And you have Jared Kushner in charge of the
policy.
NOAM CHOMSKY: Yeah, it’s been step by step.
Reagan weakened it.
Clinton weakened it.
Obama cut it back to not help—obstacles
to peace.
Trump, it’s not helpful to peace.
Meanwhile, we fund—Jared—the Kushner Foundation
and, of course, this new ambassador are strong
supporters of the ultra-right far right, way
to the right of Netanyahu.
The Beit El, the community that they’re
pouring their money into, is run by an Orthodox
rabbi whose position is that the army shouldn’t
follow orders, has to follow the rabbi’s
orders.
This is way at the right end of the Israeli
spectrum.
Originally, they said they were going to move
the embassy to Jerusalem.
They’re kind of backing off on that.
At first, their position was there’s nothing
wrong with settlements.
Now there’s a mild "they’re not helpful
to peace."
But, meanwhile, the U.S. continues to pour
money and support into fulfilling this project
of constructing a Greater Israel.
I should say that the general discussions
about this, I think, are extremely misleading.
What’s said on all sides, actually—Israel,
Palestinians, international commentary—is
that there are two options: either a two-state
settlement, in accord with the long-standing
international consensus, or else one state,
which would be an apartheid state, in which
Palestinians wouldn’t have rights, and you
could have an anti-apartheid struggle, and
Israel would face what’s called the demographic
problem—too many non-Jews in a Jewish state.
But those are not the two options.
There’s a third option, the one that is
actually being implemented—namely, construction
of a Greater Israel, which will not have a
demographic problem, because they’re excluding
the areas of dense Palestinian population,
and they’re removing Palestinians slowly
from the areas they expect to take over.
So you’ll get a—what’s called Jerusalem
as maybe five times as big as it ever has
been, goes all the way into the West Bank.
There are corridors going to the east, which
break up the remaining territory, one to Ma’ale
Adumim, a town which was built mostly during
the Clinton years, which pretty much bifurcates
the West Bank.
There’s others to the north.
The so-called Area C, where Israel has total
control, about 60 percent of the West Bank,
is slowly being incorporated into Israel with
big infrastructure programs and so on.
And this program is just taking place right
before our eyes.
The United States is providing diplomatic,
economic and military support for it.
It will leave the Palestinians with essentially
nothing.
There will be a Greater Israel, which will
have—which will not face the dread demographic
problem.
AMY GOODMAN: Professor Noam Chomsky. We'll be back with him in 30 seconds.
