tacked on a sharks
arteries jager of course and would talk
to uh... interest and all that is the
editor of time magazine
so also bevin expert to say the least on
the nelson mandela
you wrote is that
mendoza autobiography long walk to
freedom bore helped them right in ninety
three
co-producer in nineteen ninety six of us
were not made dot mitra mandal and he's
got a new book out now mandela's way
fifty lessons on life
love and courage
with a private school nelson mandela
takes us
richard one of the entire
media are a great out here
now op nelson mandela is of in my
opinion a living legend
and that one guy that i look up to most
of the war
uh... but not everybody shares my
opinion lately i don't know if you've
noticed this through some
right wing revisionist history going
around i've heard rush limbaugh said
nissa mother saying
we talk about mendoza tariffs
uh...
uh... off right so what's tackled out
for let's get that out of the way alb
he was the leader of the head of the
military wing of that
african national congress so tell me a
little bit about that and tell me why
the right wing was wrong about that and
i'll
well i really
if it's an interesting question jack
because
uh... good let's look at the history
right i think the if we go back you know
through the fourteen fifty the cop
africa
the bachelor party came to power in
nineteen forty eight if they had a you
know if you're a good
philosophy called apartheid that had a
different legal principle white and
black
and yet uh... backcountry with an ally
out of out of the u_s_ and great britain
and other western countries and so
you know government delaware the leader
of the revolutionary movement that
wanted to topple
that abm
that government and if he were completed
a parent by by the u_s_ and by great
britain and certainly with a within
south africa though
i think in that event
that's true justice same way that you
note that uh...
that george washington was considered a
terrorist by by great britain and thomas
jefferson and the great leaders of the
earth
of the republican nearly day through the
revolutionary war
so you know that leads to trouble other
interesting questions does that mean
that
perhaps should be a little bit more open
to negotiation with anyone at this point
because it's the easiest cell i you know
what how much they're terrorists
but maybe there's a nelson mandela
floating around somewhere in
well and look everybody uh... spread out
of it in a way everybody at looking for
a document belive enacted hard-copy
story kohut that government valo
afghanistan infidel mandela of iraq end
and having part of what
they concerned about that if that he was
also a person who was willing to be the
great and others in the p_p_i_ decided
to make a provide their repertoire with
his enemies that that's bout with the
lesson a government bella when he came
out of prison
but that man who went into prison a
debate one of the leader of the of the
military wing apparently the first time
kind of commander of the military wing
of the entry and
and basically he
that and and and and our conversations
we would offer greater he had won great
goal which was good
with the makeup africa eddie right
non-racial democracy one man one person
one vote
and and pretty much anything else
that with anyone ever get you there was
a tactic
and
and so he looked at whether they agree
should be done by the violent
in a strategic way not necessarily the
more way and
uh... i i think so much
reconciliation to help in the world
today people have to be they have to be
practical they can't be ideological
then that leaves us i think the most
interesting question
when did he judge that going a military
route was not the best strategy
and switch over
to the diplomatic route
and why did he come that decision
well you know that really only happened
frankly after he came out of prison
if you go to hell with them that state
president com
probably four or five years before
mandela was ultimately released made an
offer to relieve him if he would
unconditionally renounced violence in
the hands of the military struggle and
and
here if you could you go ad hoc
that you know there were
there were opportunity do that but he
felt that he could only do that from the
position of strength but not weakness
and
and really dot only
happened if you know when ran
they're really weather kind of new
constitution of the dayton that for for
a democratic
election and what do you have a prado
was
without them military wing of the entry
with the parade of the
other of a very very extreme right wing
hutch
you know uh... uh you white afrikaner
uh... military movement of south africa
that would that would cause a civil war
winging had a meeting that position of
power where they need to turn around ok
let's not doing any military list of the
non-violent
you know that happened where
he had never been he would not the
leader of the entry when he went to
prison and and and one of the things
that happened during all those years in
prison apart from
explain to him
self-discipline self-control
which became the hallmarks of his
leadership
it also made him an icon around the
world and and
you know the freemen della movement
started to go
uh...
now twenty years but im
fifteen years before he was really so
so what you get out of prison he was
the
the the defacto leader of the of uh...
of the empty and and and the movement
for democracy
improv africa and he had to go
ride for the occasion to be that would
be you know it wasn't it veto power with
the flat upon and he didn't actually
necessarily peek at the end
and it gave him great power of the fact
that he used that power
widely and generously and
you know told everybody looks at you
know we need to forget the past and
forgive our enemies with with the thing
that brought
i think our video graduate about africa
analyzing silly or what made in the
living legend in my mind existed when u
he coulda gone another direction i mean
it's one of those pivotal moments kind
of like wind after the american
revolution they said it was right or a
great job now we'd like to be doing
seems like no spectacular that's that's
not the point of this whole thing
now in fact that's what i think that's a
great analogy because i think washington
is if
comparable figure
to compared mandela through because
as say well you know
lot of people wanted
watching to be carrying our president
for life there were no political debate
we decided after his second term that he
would
that he would require and and in fact
vendela uh... you notified after her
first term that he would require that
you know that really hadn't happened in
in african countries are democracies all
whatever before it was just the way
washington tried everything
every step i take it at hand
if there's going to be paintball about
somebody that's painting as as nelson
mandela doctor with iris israelis the
everytime exit with the new book
mandela's way
it one last question on that route
richard which is
you know i i didn't mean to come home on
so welcome but is worth having this
conversation
you think you know what mandela been
renounce violence until he was in a
position where he thought he could
uh...
so
you know i i don't i have always
rejected mosses route towards violence
but
when you look at the analogy doesn't
hold to say that well okayed
i'd get strategically why they're not
that recognizing israel
uh... for the moment being it does that
does that make sense
well look if we look at history if you
look at all of the v
of the revolutionary at even violent
movement but then became politically
corrupted you know from from what
happened in that you know that
the revolutionary war in this country to
uh... the i_r_a_ to the uh...
you know the p_l_o_ vinod they were all
one
branded a terrorist
informations that you couldn't negotiate
with her or bargained where they had an
indicator of how mark i mean i think
even you know him you know even of the
obama government and our people in the
government and think that we need to
talk to her bought but you know that
it's better to try to find
something that we have in common with
them then tossed aside lebanon for
coddling them
you know may give in power info
i mean i think that the historical
precedent for all of this and um...
you know i did not
you know very far away either
all right now lidlesseye about the book
because you this is not as a lot of iron
this is the sistine lessons are life
love it encourages you see in the title
and there's some very interesting
lessons right here
eat if you have parents have his only
from the front
and lead from the back
how do you do both what does that mean
well he's a man of complexity of it you
can't he could contain contradiction
leading to the product of the we all
understand that you know
standing up
jumping over time to think power made
that but bleeding from the back of the
public more interesting and i thought i
had to go
we typically very early morning walk
into very early riser and we would meet
at five am but
botanical walk-in we were doing a twenty
leader
where he grew up an entire crop up
apparently out of me
there have you ever heard of cattle
and um... commonality kid and i really
you know that are now in haiti
and why do you know well it's been
interesting eleven for leadership
because where you work out a legitimate
comes from the back to do it from behind
you you get them to go in the direction
you want
not not by leading from the front but by
finding
coming you know mother deputy hydrogen
leaders and private too
proposing a guide from the rear end
i want to take any real live without
leadership to do that but you can't put
you know you can talk all the glory you
can't always be the person
you don't need to be leading from the
front and and i think that's one of the
land that he learned in prison has one
of the thing that i think helped him
one ticket out because of the p
empowered a lot of people to leave on
private lives
residences
chapter in your book at seven thirteen
that's our pills or love
its quitting is leading to
of moja i was so
trees that building cars is sometimes
quitting is also leading
well because if you don't think he would
have a that i think one of the week of a
company leaders that day
day they can't changed her mind birthday
that it looked like weakness blueprint
change your opinion about pregnant and
what i meant by that i think we need to
but i don't think it would be a good
thing you could let me know when
circumstances came to change of mind not
it's not a weakness trying to find
exactly a strength and hope
uh...
no i'd think
what he means and what i did like
waiting and waiting to know that
that impacted sometimes you have a you
know what i i've i've uh...
you know i've got down to rock out there
i i can't have achieved and i have to
talk about the difference
you know if they were users
okay bardera producer david
always gives me great for changing my
wife's via republican now i'm certainly
not
uh... and because things change context
matters i when i get out of the book a
lot is the ballots matters too
because there's also a chapter called
uh... have a core principle to tell me a
little bit about that and when you stick
to the core principle and when you say
all right look
uh... we gotta make compromise here
or i was wrong about something
right i mean if you took a look at the
core principle wired
achieving a a democratic evaporate one
person one vote and you know allow our
in majority rule which would never there
before
i think dot would according to paul
everything out over the past their
current strategy
and so i think he would play that you
know
i don't look at it right now to the core
principle but botanically almost
anything out whereas something that you
could
compromises that are hoping that you
could tell me the other side and
and dot i think with what it is great
directly without heat
he wasn't ideological he was buried
pragmatic ad
that he would find a way they can't get
that altman and become people might
regard as telecom providers are giving
up
you know uh... awesome question michael
bond obama
as his presidency unfolds and
i think he makes too many compromises
but then you know i saw this goofy but i
saw in victors about you know of course
that's about nelson mandela and and
rugby team
and i hear you try and i read the book
and
it seems like cal you know
mendel did so many compromises and i
wonder if i'm single bomb a wrong
in that sense that that
you know would i be surprised by the
shocked at how many compromises mandela
did as long as he kept that one
corporate support
you know i i think you might be and
there were accurately people
within the end of the and within his
movement that thought he uh... had
capitulated betty
you know that he did give a damn back to
you a call from my ring
with the enemy and that happened either
at different times and his career it
happened while he was pretty quickly
secretly started
because jason's with the government id
there were people who thought that that
he was a traitor sobbed a traitor to
their movement and
you know he would play and i think he
was proved right that you know that was
the right thing to do and and
and that we campus
overthrow the government with armed
struggle we are we have to have have a
discussion we don't have to have a
negotiations are wide open right now
and you know what i want to be blessed
played along gave interviews you know
you have to be you have typically in
politics that you have to lookup
try to look over the arrival in
and
i know you might have a about you know
the health care bill that may be
maybe obama didn't handle it
perfectly in every way
but he would put a playing along game
and and uh... and
ultimately gods
pretty much of the players that he
wanted to be that would be better that
delaware looking at it
right had a lot of the or bombers
over-hyped enough than i thought i
compared to my son and daughter
uh... but there is one other final
chapter here that i want to tell you
about that again reminds me of of obama
you ride was close is on reading that
i'm thinking helical end of the state
department
but equipped up tell us that though what
that means
and the difference between friends
enemies and rival
have been a good question a t_v_ anytime
he wouldn't have adequate that uh...
line from the godfather i concur
keep your principal regrettably corcoran
and that we got a very pragmatic might
have been watching units
water quality productivity out of the
backlit
but i think he would have led up any
have any hardly had that practical side
of that
but inhibitor government he got all of
its rival pent-up come after me departs
to gotcha buthelezi and
and clear to the idea that you can you
can probably find some things that you
can both are provided on the thirty th
you could buy public that
that he died he wore the divided that
gets you closer to your and goldman
anarchist i think the parliament
i think all of your life with it's if
they continue looking
bigger like if you have a if you have a
big and for that that makes it look more
generally people always going without
being appeared at howard leadership
spirited i think that that that
that back to normal
why would runners who signed a lease
other time magazine in the book is
mandela's away
richard before that you go i want to ask
you put couple quick questions on time
magazine too
stripped down the shaker
you know i was just at the guardian
changing media summit there was a lot of
uvm
talk about the the the state of the
industry michael wolff did a little of
speech where he said all the newspapers
are going to be done in twelve months
that might be a bit much but i don't
think he's that far off
how much trouble or magazines and
uh... as opposed to the newspapers are
they in better shape and and has that
reflect on time
well i afterward to indicate that i
think magazine in general are are
certainly in better shape a newspaper to
main bhi
you know it's funny that probably
erickson in birth rates are the more
often you publish the worst
shakur and because of your
publishing everyday like newspapers that
your
you're really competing with the web
and work hard to justify that product
but
i guess
you know that i you know that and and
michael as a friend of mine and credibly
smart guy did
the i think i think we demanded that you
know that therein
that that there are plenty of newspapers
that will go away in their physical
print form but ided
you know where to we go online all the
way up to get our new determinant from
newspapers and magazines from near
baghdad
and you know that
the desire for new they'd prevent think
it's been hot at higher now than almost
any time ever end
and ito traditionally newspapers and
magazines other are the most reputable
untrustworthy places
to gabi that's one of the paper
thirty-two times distraught of the
people people talk tough separate both
the wheat from the chapter convert
information into knowledge and and i
think there's always going to be applied
for that and i think too
that all of these different forums even
the physical forms of publications will
kill except for the details will change
now
uh... you know that the apple i patted
coming out next week com you know what i
think that will will start to change the
industry to but i think i'd take all the
different forms will continued a clear
simultaneously that relatively galvin
the ratio bitch names but but amid their
physical newspapers and physical
magazines and physical publications or
are not going away
uh...
you sense is going to be a shift over to
that charge like i don't know why they
don't do this seems like there are right
model why don't they charge per article
is that a saying hey you got a
subscriber time magazine and pay x_
amount of money per month or whatever if
you see an article online charge of
nickel ford wear whatever it is to read
it is that is that happening at all in
industry lowered a lot of people are
talking about it and add anike and there
are someplace but bureau anybody
you know for a long time the technology
democrat of a difficult technology to
people called it the mike retarded you
know how do you card will be five
hundred article in
that the red rooster at all about it but
i think people are
gradually getting used to that of your
looking at a lot of big
media companies you know like nucor you
know which is owned by rupert murdoch
and
of a new york type of company
and i think my our corporate parent
talking about charging for content and
piping backing
company a lot of heat twelve months is
that your
you'll be a lot less
uh...
you know free
ummm journalism on the web
and twelve-month you do right now
all right with the sent a letter of time
magazine in the book has meant dole's
way fifty lessons of life love
encouraged
very interesting read uh... uh oh i mean
i love nelson mandela's life on a very
recent diving all of you will to thing
you so much for joining sirs you really
appreciate eric hickey project alright
we'll be right back
