[ Music ]
>> My name is Barbara
Lesh McCaffrey.
I'm the President of the
Alliance for the Study
of the Holocaust and Genocide.
And it's an honor
to be introducing the
annual Sylvia G. Sucher
Memorial Lecture.
And if you could put the
first -- great, thank you.
Sylvia was born in Brooklyn,
New York, in July of 1912.
The child of immigrants
from Berlin
in the Bialystok area of Russia.
At the age of four,
she contracted Polio,
which affected the
left side of her body.
And many years later, led
to post-polio syndrome.
But the experience
seemed to strengthen,
rather than diminish her,
throughout her very long life.
She went to Brooklyn College,
studied speech therapy
and later pursued a
career in teaching.
In 1936, she married a man,
whom she met in college,
who had been born in Poland
and grown up in Vienna.
And immigrated to the United
States at the age of 8.
In 1982, after his death,
Sylvia moved to Santa Rosa.
An event commemorating the
Holocaust held at SSU in this --
actually it was in what is
referred to as the Commons,
which is no longer
used for that purpose.
In 1983, the then university
President, Peter Diamandopoulos,
was a keynote speaker.
After the event, he
challenged Robert Harris,
who was that year's coordinator,
to do more than just memorialize
the Holocaust annually.
Harris asked a number of people
to assist him in responding
to the challenge,
including Sylvia Sucher.
We'll hear more about the
founding of the Alliance
at the upcoming Robert L. Harris
Memorial Lecture on April 3rd.
Sylvia was not only an
active member of the Alliance
and the planning committee
for the annual community-wide
Yom Hashoah Commemoration
for many years.
But encouraged local Holocaust
survivors to tell their stories
to students in local
middle and high schools.
A tradition which is
now part of the mission
of the Alliance's
Education Committee.
Last year, members of that
committee supported Holocaust
and genocide survivors
and their descendants,
in speaking to close to 3,000
students and 1,000 teachers
in Sonoma County Schools, about
the impact of intolerance.
We're all so indebted to
Sylvia for her amazing skills
in creating an endowment named
for former SSU faculty member,
Alliance board member
and Holocaust Survivor,
Paul V Benko.
After Paul's death in 1999,
Sylvia almost single-handedly
contacted members
of the community to create
a fund in his memory.
The proceeds of which are
one of the major sources
of the annual funding
for this series.
In an interview in 2003, she
said, "You know life is full
of little quirks and twists."
You may get thrown for
little, but then you've got
to straight-up, brush
yourself off and go on."
Sylvia died on June 26, 2017,
just short of her
104th birthday.
She continues to inspire us.
And we are so pleased that
her daughter Sahiba Maher,
is with us today.
It is also our tradition to
remember any Holocaust survivors
in the community, who've
died in the past year.
This year we'll be remembering
four survivors Evelyn Valery
Fielden, Regina Marvan, Ruth
M. Turner and Isak Zaidlin.
And you will hear each of their
stories of survival were unique.
And hopefully find threads with
the readings that you're doing.
Evelyn Valery Fielden
was born in Berlin.
Her parents, who were Jewish,
had her baptized as she said,
to give her a worry-free
life in Germany.
Not quite what was a hope for.
In 1935, she waited to join the
Nazi League of German Girls.
And when her mother had to
sign the papers Evelyn says,
"She told me I could not,
since we were Jewish."
"That was the first time I
was told about my heritage."
She managed to finish
high school
at a private girl's school
and then emigrated to England
with her sister in 1939.
There, the mother of a
school friend took them in.
Her parents were able to leave
Berlin in 1941 and traveled
to Moscow, through
Siberia, China and Japan.
In Yokohama, Japan,
they managed to get
on the last steamer
to San Francisco.
It was three months
before Pearl Harbor.
Evelyn came to San
Francisco in 1941.
And many years later,
began to volunteer
for the Holocaust Center in San
Francisco, as an interviewer
and on the speaker's program.
She was also a long-term
supporter of the Alliance.
Her advice to others
was to make the best
of every situation
and don't complain.
She died on October 8th.
2017. Regina Marvan,
was born in Mooncox,
[assumed spelling] Hungary.
In 1941, when the
roundup started,
she moved with her
parents, brother and sister
to Budapest, on false papers.
They left the family
refinery business behind.
But the engineer who is left
in charge reported
them to the Gestapo.
And the family was
arrested and locked
up in the same Budapest prison
where Adolf Eichmann
was in charge.
There, she interacted
with two notable figures.
Regina, who was a very brave
woman and spoke fluent German,
requested Eichmann's permission
to get her clothes left
back at their lodging.
And amazingly, two German
soldiers escorted her back
to her home to get her clothes.
Hannah Senesh, the
famous resistance fighter
and her mother, were
also at the same prison.
Regina, who also spoke Hebrew,
spent each day walking
the allowed 20 minutes
in the courtyard with Hannah
and got to know her well.
Coincidentally, Regina's
mother shared a cell
with Hannah's mother.
Regina and her family
were released
from prison later that year.
And were interned in a labor
camp, when the Hungarian,
Arrow Cross, the local fascist
organization came into power.
After the Russians liberated
Budapest, she left Hungary,
went to a displaced
persons camp in Austria.
And it was there she
met her future husband,
Fred, also a survivor.
She, her husband
and her young son,
Robert and the surviving
members of her family,
came to America in 1947.
Moving to Santa Rosa in 2007.
At the age of 93, Regina said
she regretted no longer being
able to go out and tell
her story in the schools.
Something she had done
for very many years.
Regina died at the
end of October, 2017,
as a result of smoke
inhalation from the fires
that swept Sonoma County.
Ruth M. Turner, was living
in Berlin during the 1930s.
After Kristallnacht, her father
felt that it was no longer safe
for Jews to remain in Germany.
By 1938, most countries
had closed their borders,
except Shanghai, China.
Where only a passport was
needed for immigration.
It took a year of effort
and bribing bureaucrats
for Ruth's parent's,
maternal grandmother
and her father's brother and
sister, to be able to escape.
They left for Shanghai in 1939,
when Ruth was just
two years old.
And lived there for 10 years
in a small ghetto cramped
with 20,000 other Jews.
Filth, squalor and
extreme poverty,
characterized conditions
in the ghetto.
Her father, who was a tailor,
eked out a meager
living for the family.
In 1949, Ruth became
ill with typhoid.
Luckily penicillin was
coming into wide use.
And her father was
able to bribe doctors
to get this new medicine
and save her life.
Eventually, the family
was able to emigrate
to Montreal in Canada.
And then in January of
1951, to San Francisco,
at which time Ruth was 13.
She credits love, support and
positive attitude of her parents
for getting her through
the challenges and some
of the hard times
that she had to face.
Besides family, her friends,
her Jewishness and her temple,
were all important supports
and mainstays of her life.
She died in June
of 19 -- of 2017.
And last, Isak Zaidlin, was
born in a small town in Poland,
which is now in Belarus.
His brother Ben and his father
Solomon, went into hiding
after their town
became a ghetto.
The Russian partisans help
them find places to hide,
mostly in people's barns.
And they found a spot
for their mother, sisters
and an infant, a new newborn.
But when they went
back to get them,
they discovered they'd
been killed less
than ten days earlier.
The three family members
hid for almost two years.
For a time after the war, Isak
was in a displaced persons camp.
And then went to Israel
in 1948, at the age of 18,
joined the Navy and fought in
Israel's War of Independence.
Isak came to this
country in 1952
and married his beloved Trudy.
They operated a coffee shop
in Marin County, for 29 years.
Isak's advice for people
is to be proud Jews,
be an example study
and work hard.
He died on January 30th, 2018.
May their memories
be a blessing.
Thank you.
[ Applause ]
>> Well, we're very pleased
to welcome another new face
to our lecture series.
Professor Rubinovitz,
is an Israel Institute
Teaching Fellow this year
at Sonoma State.
He received his doctorate
in International Relations
at the University of Haifa.
And his research fields there
were American Foreign Policy,
Israeli Foreign Policy and
U.S. Israeli Relations.
He's been a visiting
professor at Emory University,
the London School of Economics
and the University of Haifa.
Professor Rubinovitz is
currently working on the concept
of autonomy for Palestinians
in the occupied territories.
And the role of U.S.
guarantees to Israel
in peace processes since 1967.
His book on Menachem Begin and
the Peace Process with Egypt,
will be published soon by
Indiana University Press.
Today, he's going to speak to
us on rescuers and survivors
in the Israeli context.
So, please welcome him.
[ Applause ]
>> Okay. So.
Okay, so, good afternoon.
And thank you for
inviting me to this --
to participate in this
distinguished lecture series.
I regret that I can't attend the
lectures throughout the year.
During the semester,
I'm actually teaching
usually in parallel.
This is just to say that I hope
that what I'm presenting
here resonates or in contact
in connection with
other lectures
that you have heard before.
This photo, which now is in the
background, is a random photo
that I found from last year's
Holocaust Memorial Day ceremony
at Yad VaShem in Jerusalem.
This is the part where Holocaust
survivor's light torches.
And they're usually
escorted by family members.
If they just have someone, let's
say, a grandson who is a soldier
at that time, that would
be the best photo for them.
For Israel to see
that this connection
between surviving the Holocaust
and then becoming soldiers.
I mean, their descendants become
soldiers in the Israeli Army.
And what I will do today,
is I will briefly refer
to both Holocaust
survivors and their rescuers
in the Israeli context.
Which is a bit complicated
because, as you know,
the Holocaust did not happen
in what is now the
State of Israel, right?
It happened in a
different continent,
it was spread all over.
It's not something
that you can --
that you say let's say like
in Rwanda that if they have,
they have their memories,
it's in there
in that territory in their land.
It's a bit different,
it's more complicated.
So, the first question that
I think we should ask is,
what was the Holocaust?
So, I'm not going to get into
the definitions and how --
why the Holocaust is so unique
in this study of
genocides, right?
This is a unique case.
But certainly, there
are different views
that need to be addressed.
And in the Israeli education
system, usually I mean,
pupils will learn about the
Holocaust era from 1933 to 1945.
Which is Hitler's years in
power, which is everything.
I mean, all that time,
which is untrue, right?
Because the Holocaust actually
started only during World War
Two, not even at
the very beginning.
But took until to 1940, even if
you want to push into only 1941,
when the systematic mass
murder of Jews had begun.
But if you take it from
1933, it means it's --
there is a buildup
into this, right?
Into preparing, perhaps the
Germans and Others, to this idea
or this philosophy of
killing other human beings,
just because what
and who they are.
So, usually the Holocaust
itself is, I guess,
is defined as the systematic
mass murder of Jews by Germany.
Usually, I guess, you should
narrow it to 1941 to 1945 or 44,
into the beginning of 1945.
How many people perished
during the Holocaust is a
delicate question.
And the exact number is actually
not known, I think to anyone.
That's part of the problem.
Many communities were
not recorded well
in their countries.
Therefore, we know that let's
say a whole town was wiped out,
but we don't know
how many people.
We don't know their names.
We don't know anything
about them.
We just know that there
was a community that's no
longer there.
And surprisingly
perhaps, in Europe,
into well into the 20th
century, there were issues.
It was documenting themselves,
not every one of
them were German.
Now, so, very quickly, you --
Jewish people and the Israeli --
later, the Israeli
establishment, have settled
with the number of six million.
Six million Jews who perished.
And that was -- the
calculation was
about one-third of the people.
Actually, if it's six million,
it's a bit more than one-third
of the Jewish people of that
time before World War Two.
Researchers have tried to find
out a bit more to dig into this
and to be more accurate.
And there seems to
be a consensus now
of between 5.5 million
to 5.8 million Jews
who were murdered
during the Holocaust.
And in any case, however, we
calculate this, we're talking
about one third of
the Jewish people.
And many people do notice
that until this day,
70 plus years later, the
Jewish people had not
yet recovered demographically
from the Holocaust.
It takes time.
And but certainly, most
of the European Jewry had been
exterminated during the war.
I mean, for taking let's
say only Poland itself,
where there were before the
war about 3.3 million Jews,
which were about 10%
of the population.
Surviving the Holocaust,
you have only about,
were about 300,000, which is
about 10% of that population.
That's all that is left of the
Jewish population in Poland.
And they were perhaps
the largest community,
Jewish community in
the world of that time.
And then there is a question
of who is considered a victim?
That's a big question, right?
Who is a victim of
Holocaust -- of this crime?
Anyone who was killed?
I guess so, yes, that's logical.
But anyone who died
during World War Two
or during the Holocaust
years, do they --
everyone get that
status of a victim?
Perhaps not everyone,
not all of them.
Of course, there are
those who fought, right?
Now partisans, those who
actually went underground
and fought and were killed
in combat with Germans
or with their associate,
it's fine.
So, there's -- it's
a bit of a complex,
but everyone together are
usually referred to together as
or remembered together.
And then comes the
other question,
which is who is considered
a survivor?
I mean, okay, we talked
about the victims,
now let's talk about
the survivors.
So, obviously, this is a
very sensitive question
that is being asked
for many, many years.
And quite surprisingly, in
Israel, in recent years,
people have noticed that
there are more people
who are now referred to
as a Holocaust survivor
than a year before.
How can that be?
Biologically it can't
Work, right?
So, obviously, the
definitions have changed, right?
People -- the definitions,
the legal definitions
of who had survived.
The rules for defining
people have changed.
Therefore, nowadays let's
say, it's no longer only those
who were in the camps and who
survived the extermination
or concentration
camps or labor camps.
But it's also those who were
under the regime, anyhow --
anyway you under the
German regime or any
of its associates regime.
So, you have a lot, you have
a lot of a lot of people
that suddenly added to this.
There also is, I didn't, I
think I didn't mention this,
but there is a community
from North Africa,
that there's a big question
there, are they part
of the Holocaust or not?
I mean, has it -- so,
certainly, there are people,
Northern African Jews who were
deported to camps in Europe.
And some of them certainly
have been exterminated.
They are Holocaust
victims for sure.
But the communities
themselves were either, say,
under fascist Italy or under
the Vichy regime in let's say,
that's in Africa, that in Asia.
You have Syria and
Lebanon, are they part
of the Holocaust or not?
Of this amount of people
who suffered or not?
This is the big question that is
in debate between researchers.
So, now I would want to talk
about Holocaust survivors
in Israel.
After 1945, there was
a wave of emigration
to first, mandatory Palestine.
And once the British left
and Israel was established
into the State of Israel,
whoever survived
and could manage.
People came mostly from Europe.
I mean, this wave, most of them
are Holocaust survivors whoever
is left.
Of course, there
were many who moved
to the United States,
to Australia.
Some prefer to stay in Europe.
Even go back to the state
to where they lived
before the Holocaust.
But many decided, we're going
to Palestine [inaudible].
That's our goal.
So, some of them came legally.
There were certificates.
I mean, the British were
in charge in Palestine.
And they gave certificates
per year.
Under American pressure,
they increased the number.
Although the American -- Truman
tried to force the British
to allow everyone
immediately in.
They said no.
But they did give certificates.
So, a lot of people
did come legally.
A lot of people came legally,
but none with their
certificates.
And a lot of people came
illegally, either smuggled
at the border or you know,
swam, almost swam to Palestine
into a beach that the
British patrol wasn't there.
I mean, that's how
-- they weren't --
and then immediately they would
be running into the kibbutzim.
And one of the kibbutzim and
disappear there until they,
I guess, learned enough
Hebrew to sound natural.
So, you have lots of
stories about that.
Of course, there are
those who were arrested.
And I mean captured when
they came to Palestine.
And were sent to new
concentration camps now
in Cyprus, British camps.
Including my grandmother's
brother
and sister, who were sent there.
And only later were
allowed to come to Israel.
They came from [inaudible],
through [inaudible], actually.
And also, my grandmother
and my late Grandfather,
did the same came
from [inaudible].
So, the natives,
the Jewish natives
of Palestine, known as Sabra.
Yes, like the hummus
company, Sabra, in Hebrew.
And this is how they're known.
They actually at first
distanced themselves from these
from these Jews,
from the Diaspora.
They are new Jews.
People who actually
know how to shoot.
Who learn how to cultivate the
land, unlike those Jews from the
from the Galut, from
the Diaspora,
who don't know any of that.
They only learned Torah.
That's the image that so
many people had about them.
It took years to learn how
difficult their lives were,
once the Germans took over.
And certainly, the Eichmann
trial in 1961, certainly opened
up a lot of these wounds.
And allowed Israelis,
native Israelis
to learn what happened
during the Holocaust.
Things that they never imagined.
I mean they heard about things,
but they never really heard
such stories told on live radio.
No TV then in Israel,
live radio for weeks.
Okay. Now, I mean, that
the image of the --
of these Diaspora Jews
was that they were led
to their slaughter like sheep.
And they did nothing.
That was of course,
not completely true.
There were those certainly,
who did not resist.
But there were a lot who did
resist, one way or another.
And they -- there is a bravery
here that took a lot of time
to actually, learn and to get.
There was no escape for a lot
of people, that's problem.
I mean, the borders were
closed and there is no way out.
That was the problem.
Now, Israel's Central Bureau
of Statistics just last month
for the International
Holocaust Memorial Day,
which is January, 27th.
Which is the day of
liberation of Auschwitz.
Have published that
at the end of 2000,
2016 there were 186,500
survivors in Israel.
As I said, the numbers
should go down.
But actually, sometimes
there are years
that they go up for a while.
Now, Yom HaShoah, the Holocaust
Memorial Day in Israel.
The Holocaust is unique,
as I mentioned before,
in the fact that Israel
remembers this a state
that never existed when
the Holocaust was happening
to its people in a
different country,
continent in many, many places.
And that is perhaps a bit unique
about how Israel
feels about this.
But of course, a lot of those
who establish the state itself,
the people who were there, who
lived through the formation
of the state, were Holocaust
survivors themselves.
So, I mean they have a
direct connection here.
Now, of course, the Holocaust
itself was very present
in Israel.
I mean, if there is
anything that people --
that pupils learn
in high school,
in history of anything
they should remember
from high school
is the Holocaust.
I mean, everything comes
down to the Holocaust.
The whole Jewish history of
thousands of years, disappears.
Nothing is there.
If there is something,
especially now the government,
this government is investing
quite a lot in teaching
about the Holocaust
and intensifying this.
And there is some
outcry in Israel about,
why are you teaching about
the Holocaust five year old's
or six years old?
I mean, they can't
absorb any of this.
Why? But this is part
of teaching these young,
very young people
about the history.
And of course, with some
political reasoning behind
this teaching.
And so, certainly,
this is something
that should be remembered.
Now, in the Holocaust
Memorial Day in Israel,
is between Passover and Yom
Haatzmaut, Independence Day.
Just in the middle.
After the second
holiday of Passover
and a week before Memorial
Day and Independence Day.
Of course, the symbolism
cannot be missed, right?
Israel survived -- the Jewish
people survived Pharaoh,
okay Egypt.
Then survived the Holocaust.
And we have now a
state of our own.
This is -- you can't, you just
can't miss the symbolism here.
Now, in fact, this is
not the first date of --
this is not from the
very beginning of Israel,
that this is the
date of Memorial Day.
It starts actually only 1959,
when the law made this date,
which is 27th day of Nisan,
into the Holocaust Memorial Day.
In 1949 already, the first
time Israel as a state,
as a new state, was trying
to commemorate the Holocaust,
it was done on the
tenth day of Tevet.
Which is one of these
fasting days in remembrance
of the fall of Jerusalem.
The siege and then fall of
Jerusalem, ancient Jerusalem.
Which became a general Kaddish
Day for all of those who died.
But it didn't really work out
because then there's a lot
of memories with the same day.
And some point the government,
the country decided
we need a separate day
for Holocaust Remembrance.
So, this is how the
date was later chosen.
It's part of the story
behind the ghetto,
the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising.
They thought perhaps at the
beginning, but that was eve
of Pesach, so it's not good.
So, they moved two weeks later.
And this is the date that they
decided will commemorate the
Holocaust and heroism.
It's always Yom Hasikaron
laShoah ve-laG'vurah,
Holocaust and heroism.
Never Holocaust alone.
Just -- we make it
shorter to Yom HaShoah,
but it's not really that.
It's commemorating also the
heroism during the Holocaust.
So, this is how this day begins.
And these are images from the
central ceremony at Yad VaShem.
Which is the Israeli Institute
that commemorates the Holocaust.
It's there from 1953.
This is a national ceremony.
Therefore, you see
soldiers as part of it.
And the Holocaust survivors --
six Holocaust survivors will
light, as long, of course,
that there are survivors around.
They will be lighting
the torches,
commemorating one million
Jews, every one of them.
And you hear their story, how
they survived the Holocaust,
what happened to them.
And as I said, usually
they are associated --
they are escorted by a member
of their family, who helps them
with the torching later.
So, this is how it begins.
It starts sharp at 8:00 p.m.
on the eve of the Memorial Day.
And then you have
different ceremonies.
So, this is the beginning.
It's a long ceremony.
The heads of the
state are there.
Prime Minister and the
president give speeches.
The Chief Rabbis
always too, right?
The Ashkenazi and the Sephardi.
You can't have only one.
They give the Kaddish and the
[speaking in foreign language].
And then you have the ceremony
of lighting the torches.
All entertainment
facilities are closed
on that evening in
Israel, by law.
I mean, it's not
voluntary, it's by law.
And then the next morning at
10:00 a.m. there is a siren
for two minutes, all
around the country.
Everyone stands for two minutes.
And then there starts
this ceremony.
This is quite new
from recent years.
And it's called [speaking
in foreign language],
every person has a name,
after a famous song by Zelda.
Saying everyone has a
name given by his parents,
by their surroundings, by
their God and so on and so on.
This is where people say the
names of Holocaust survivor,
Holocaust victims of their
family, from their own family.
Very similar to perhaps
how we started here,
remembering people
who died just now.
So, but then of course,
those who who are
victims of the Holocaust.
And all of the leaders
of the state,
most of them are Ashkenazi,
so they have personal
connection with victims.
And the day ends
with another ceremony
at kibbutz Lochamei HaGeta'ot.
Lochamei HaGeta'ot is
ghetto fighters in English.
Of course, established by ghetto
fighters who survived this
and came to Palestine
and then Israel.
And usually the Chief of Staff
is the one talking there.
Again, this connection
between the Israeli Army now
and what happened then.
I mean, you can't
miss the symbolism
in any of these events.
This is how it seems, the
two-minute silence siren.
It's a siren, it's a stable
siren for two minutes.
If there is an emergency, always
you would hear the community --
the media tell you if
there is an emergency.
You'll hear the siren
go up and down,
then you know we're in trouble.
But if not, then it's
a stable two minutes.
As you can see, it can catch
a lot of people travelling.
So, they just stand,
get out of their cars,
stand for two minutes
and continue driving.
That's how it goes.
In the train, let's
say if they're stuck
in the train, the
train will stop.
They will stand and
that's how it goes.
Now a bit about how
memory is passed in Israel.
So, we have these ceremonies.
These are the traditional
ceremonies now.
But at some point, you know,
that the last survivors
will no longer be with us.
How do you continue?
So, certainly there are
people who record their story.
Then we have them on tape.
People who write,
people who just speak.
I mean, tell their
story to others.
But perhaps that's
not really enough.
Now the authorities who
calculate these things,
estimate that every day about
40 Holocaust survivors die
in Israel, per year, per day.
So, it's about 10,000
per year, even more.
And at some point biology will
make sure that no one is here.
Now, the ceremonies
that I just showed you,
start losing their impact
on the younger generations.
They're boring, they're
quite boring,
they could be quite boring.
I can't say that they are,
they can be sometimes.
Certainly, there's a formality
that doesn't really resonate
with a lot of youngsters.
Therefore, some years ago,
seven years ago actually,
a new project started it's
called Zikaron BaSalon.
As you can see this is how
is called also in English.
it's like tikkun
olam, when people ask,
so how do you say
tikkun olam in Hebrew?
Well, okay it's from Hebrew.
So, Zikaron BaSalon, which is
memories in the living room.
People started -- this
is how it started,
with a person inviting
a Holocaust survivor
to their living room.
And people inviting
people to listen.
And this is how it goes,
an open discussion,
when that Holocaust
survivor tells his
or her story, they listen.
It's very intimate.
And then they can talk,
discuss sing along and so on.
And perhaps a different
way to do the same thing.
It always happens on the eve of
and when everything is closed.
You know, there are no pubs
and restaurants and
so on and movies.
So, this is what you have.
If not, you just sit in front
of a TV and watch the movies
that the TV stations
are presenting.
Or listening to the radio.
That's all that there is to do.
So, these are their websites, if
you want to take a look at them,
I'll give you a second
to write them down.
In English it ends with
org, in Hebrew with com.
And more and more people go
into this, to inviting okay.
And this is my grandmother
telling her story.
This is not a regular
living room, okay?
This is actually a hall
that was given for this.
As you can see, tens
of people were there.
Dozens of people came to listen
to my grandmother's
story several years ago.
And I think she did it more than
once, if I remember correctly.
This is something that I want
to say about this, you know,
usually, I don't know how --
if you have learned already
about other genocides.
But usually, survivors are
divided into two groups.
Those who don't speak
it and those who do.
Those who do speak about
what happened to them,
to their families
and those who don't.
My grandfather, my
late grandfather,
was those who don't
-- didn't speak.
He never really spoke
about anything.
It was really difficult to get
out of him any story, anything.
He was one of, if I
remember correctly,
nine children, the youngest.
Only he and one of his
brothers, his old brother,
survived the Holocaust.
Everyone else were dead.
His older brother was
already married in Paris.
So, I mean also, of course,
came under occupation.
But still was and was there.
We don't know a lot
of his ordeals.
My grandmother talks.
She talked with everyone.
She talked with us
the grandchildren.
She talked with her children, my
father and my aunt and others.
She is an endless
source of stories
of what was going on then.
Things that she remembers
from home before.
Things that she remembers
from what happened
and how things happened
to the family.
Yeah, okay.
Now, I mentioned before that
there are probably something
between 5.5 to 5.8
million victims.
Yad VaShem, the Israeli
Institute
that commemorates everyone.
Shem is name in Hebrew.
Has taken a mission on itself.
That's their mission is to
collect the names of the people,
the victims, to know
who they were?
Where they came from?
Who their family was?
Know anything about them.
The basic information is name,
age, where they were from.
How they died.
Where they died.
Until now, there are about
4.5 million names recorded.
Which means there are at least
one million names no one knows.
No one probably will ever know.
Because no one is there to tell.
Actually, this started
very early
to starting to collect
the names.
In the 1990s and late 1990s,
suddenly everyone understood,
oh they're perishing.
They're dying on
us, the survivors.
We need to collect
again the names.
So, I can tell you that
names are collected.
They have a page
you can download,
it's called a page of testimony.
And you can download it and
fill out the names of relatives,
neighbors and so on and so on.
These are two pages, of
course, not coincidence.
One is Chaim Yosef Lipman.
And the other is
Hanna Esther Lipman.
They are my great-grandparents.
This is a page -- these
are pages that are online.
My grandmother sat with my
father, told him the names
and he wrote everything down.
As you see, there is a bit of
a difference between the forms.
One was more -- was almost
exclusively in Hebrew.
Then the newer form
is also in English.
So, you have also
information in English.
So, my grandmother provided
more than 100 names.
Sixty-six of the
pages are online
in the Yad VaShem website.
What they do is they cross
list and they make sure
that they have -- that
they don't have doubles
of the same name.
Okay, now, you can see here,
I doubt do you can
actually read this.
It says where they're from,
who their parents were Whatever
is known and where they lived.
Okay they lived in
Ozorkow in Poland.
Where they died, probably
Dachau [assumed spelling],
my grand great-grandfather,
probably in Dachau.
We're not really sure of what.
And it was probably
in November, 1944.
He actually survived
for quite a while.
My great-grandmother, she
was killed in [inaudible].
And my grandmother knows that,
to say that it was
she was gassed.
So, this is the personal
attachment and also,
two of my grandmother's
brothers who died.
One of them died in
Auschwitz, probably gassed,
but we're not -- she
wasn't really sure.
And the other one died in the
ghetto in Lodz, from disease
that wasn't treated well.
So that's my -- that's
the personal story.
I mean, for her family,
she was quite lucky.
They were three of
the five brothers
who survived the Holocaust.
And all three of them
made their way to Israel,
to Palestine and then to Israel.
Others have dispersed all over.
Okay, now, this is
-- this is Poland.
This is Lodz, okay, the
central city of their Region.
And this -- zoom
in, Lodz, Ozorkow
and Linches [assumed spelling],
where part of the
family was from.
Then they moved into Ozorkow.
And this is where they were
caught, when the war came.
And eventually they were
pushed into the Lodz ghetto
and from there to
camps and so on.
My grandmother was arrest --
was liberated from
Auschwitz in 1945.
This is west of the Warsaw.
So, Warsaw would
be somewhere here.
This is a part of
our family tree.
My aunt and her cousin worked
on this for a long while,
on bringing the story, writing
up the story of our family.
My grandmother's
branch, that is.
And they came up, with through
my grandmother's memory and only
from her memory,
about 500 names, yeah.
Who -- I mean, generations
back, that is.
And all of them, they had a
huge sheet that they spread.
It was amazing how long it was.
This is only one section of it,
our section of this whole thing.
But this is how people
try to record right now,
before it's too late to
record the history of us.
Now, as I said, many communities
were completely wiped out,
leaving nothing behind.
No memory, no person to tell the
story to remember them, even.
My grandmother community
of Ozorkow had gathered
and they built this memorial.
Which is three -- you have here
one memorial, two memorials
and the torch in the middle,
at the Holon cemetery.
Actually, the Holon cemetery
houses a lot of such memorials
for Holocaust --
for and communities
that were striked
by the Holocaust.
Every year, during the Memorial
Day, the Holocaust Memorial Day,
the families gather there
for another ceremony.
And that's what you see here in
the photos from a few years ago
when I was there, too.
And now I want to
go to the rescuers.
That was about the
victims and the survivors,
now a bit about the rescuers.
It's called Righteous
Among the Nations,
khasidei um'ot ha'olam,
in Hebrew.
This is actually, an ancient
term in Judaism that was revived
after the Holocaust
to identify people
who saved Jews during
the Holocaust.
Yad VaShem that -- I copied this
from the Yad VaShem website.
This is their mission,
this is what they say.
That they convey the gratitude
of the State of Israel
and the Jewish people.
You see both of them,
right, it's not Israel
in a way is taking the role as
representing the Jewish people.
As it usually does,
but here specifically,
to non-Jews who risked
their lives
to save Jews during
the Holocaust.
It grants the title Righteous
Among the Nations to the few
who helped Jews in the
darkest time in their History.
So, what they receive is they
receive a medal of thanks,
of thanks, plus a certificate,
an honorary certificate.
And their name is commemorated
in the Mount of Remembrance
which is part of Mount Herzl,
where Yad VaShem
is in Jerusalem.
And it's it was true that a tree
was planted in their name there.
But at some point
it was too crowded.
So, they stopped planting trees
because there's no
place for so many.
But they are commemorated there.
I mean, okay, that's life,
for better or worse perhaps.
And also, they are entitled to
have an honorary citizenship
of the State of Israel.
And some claimed -- some
actually moved to Israel
and became citizens of
the State of Israel.
Now, this seems to be,
from what I understand,
from what Yad VaShem is saying,
this is a unique
tribute of the victims.
No one else ever did such
a thing of thanking people
who saved, even one person
during the Holocaust.
Again, this is what Yad VaShem
says, there is no parallel
or precedent to this attempt by
victims to pay tribute to those
who stood by their side.
The idea is to single out the
individuals from the nations
of perpetrators,
collaborators and bystanders.
Many of the, many of the
nations, who were occupied
by Germany, then turned
on their own citizens.
I mean, the Jews and
helped get rid of them.
Many have, but there are
those who certainly, have not.
And they -- these
are the righteous.
It's always individuals, okay,
not groups, never groups.
Even if an underground,
the French underground
or the Danish underground, had
saved their whole community,
the Danish, that's
what they did,
their whole community,
they can't.
It's people, specific
individuals.
That's the rule.
Now, the project starts from the
beginning of Yad VaShem itself.
There are four criteria
that I found.
Saying that first of all, it
needs to be active participation
in rescuing one or more.
Sometimes it could
be one person.
Sometimes it could be a
whole family or even more.
There were people who
saved a lot of people,
one person who saved a
lot of a lot of souls.
A real risk, that's important
I mean, you were certainly
in danger for doing this, okay?
Either your liberty
or your life.
You need -- the incentive
should be saving the Jews,
not getting rich from this.
I mean, getting their money
or converting them
into Christianity.
That won't work.
It needs to be just saving
that soul, that person.
And also, you need evidence.
You need to be backed by some
proof that you indeed did that.
So, what is happening is
how do people get to that?
Usually they're rescuees,
those who they rescued,
would testify in their name.
Would put their name
to the committee.
And to ask them to say,
this and this saved my life.
I want to -- I want
you to recognize him
as Khasidei um'ot
ha'olam, as righteous.
This is something that
they would need to do.
This is why the number, that
I will show you in a minute,
probably is not reflecting
completely what was going on.
Because there are a lot of
people who didn't come forward
or didn't even know of
this before they died.
And therefore, we
don't have the record
of who saved them, but still.
So, the total number
that Yad VaShem has
and everyone copies
Yad VaShem on that,
even the U.S. Holocaust
Memorial Museum in Washington.
They just site the Yad VaShem.
Commemorates 26,513 people,
as of last year, 2017.
Most of them were national --
were nominated by the people
who they rescued
and survived, right?
They need to also survive the
Holocaust to be able to testify.
But as I said, certainly
there are more
that were not recorded yet.
And perhaps will be in the
future, if anyone can trace
that trace that number.
So, the National Division,
I summarized their whole very
long table into this table.
You see that Poland now,
now there's a whole issue
of Polish remembrance, right?
And all of that.
They had the most.
Perhaps it's logical because
that's the largest Jewish
community of that time.
And they -- well,
there are 6,706 Poles,
who are recognized as righteous.
As people who saved someone,
at least one, that is.
And then you have,
you have others.
This is the way it's going.
And then you have
other countries
where only two countries
with three people commemorated
-- who are righteous.
Five with two.
And eleven countries with
one person who was there.
And as I said, as
you can see here,
I put an asterisk on Denmark.
Because Denmark, they
actually, Israel wanted
or Yad VaShem wanted to mention
a whole group that was there.
They asked not to.
So, there are only 22
righteous in Denmark,
where actually a
lot, lot more there.
But this is a Danish, the Danish
people actually asked that.
But you know that the
Danish jury was saved
by Denmark itself.
They were sent under the nose
of the Germans to Sweden.
This is how they survived.
So, this is what they receive.
This is the medal and this is
the certificate they receive.
An honorary certificate
for thanking them
for saving someone.
And of course, this comes
down to this sentence
from Judaism [speaking
in foreign language].
Everyone who saves one life,
is as if saved a whole world.
And this is this is the
logic behind commemorating
these righteous.
Now, commemoration.
I found interesting that
the Israeli Postal Service
presents stamps.
This is the diplomats.
There are five diplomats
mentioned here, who saved Jews.
One of them is from Japan.
He's the only righteous
from Japan, also.
And you have a general
stamp for salute.
It's a solute for the
Righteous Among the Nations,
that was issued.
Then I want to tell
you a few stories
that I guess you
know some of them.
I hope you heard
of some of them.
Raoul Wallenberg,
perhaps is the most --
is one of the most
known of them.
Raoul Wallenberg, who was a
Swedish diplomat stationed
at that time in in
Budapest in 1944.
And he saved tens of thousands.
It was an industry of
saving these people,
giving them Swedish protection.
And also, physical,
Swedish protection.
I mean, putting them --
hiding them in Swedish
government owned buildings
in Budapest.
Therefore, they're not
-- can't touch them.
He started in July, '44.
This is when he started this --
his assignment and his mission.
Half a year later when the
Soviet liberators, occupiers,
whatever you want to call
them, came in, they took him.
And no one saw him
ever, ever again.
It's now -- it seems
established that he was killed.
He died or maybe he was murdered
in a KGB facility
outside Moscow in 1947.
Just two years ago, the Swedish
tax system declared him dead.
I mean, that's how you
know people died, right?
There is nothing more permanent
than death and taxes, right?
So, here you go.
So, that's Raoul Wallenberg.
Another -- he became because his
story was so famous and he was
such an impressive person,
he became an honorary
citizen of the United States.
One of his -- one of the
people he rescued became an
American legislator.
And he pushed a bill to make
him into an honorary citizen
of the state of this country.
Also, Canada Hungary,
Australia and Israel,
made him honorary citizen.
after death, of course.
And other places
also commemorate him.
There was a lot of
places named after him.
In Israel there are
five streets,
if I remember correctly, that
are named after Wallenberg.
One of them, in Tel Aviv, also
has a statue of him there.
Which is quite rare in Israel
to find statues in streets.
Another one is Oskar Schindler.
That I guess many of you have
seen the "Schindler's List."
Schindler himself
was a business man.
And actually, part
of the Nazi Party.
Who at some point, I guess,
calculated that it would
be cheaper to labor Jews,
than to labor Poles in the
factories that he took over.
And at some point,
thousands of people --
he saved thousands of
people during the war.
Even far off -- at
some point it was --
I mean, it became from
profiting from them,
into actually saving them.
Regardless of the price
that he was paying.
And he started paying a
price in the Nazi Party
and in the Nazi system because
they knew what he was doing.
They were tried to
take the Jews from him
and he actually fought
them back.
He later, after the war, there
was an attempt to make him
into one of the righteous.
But remember, there
was profit here behind.
So, it made a made a
problem for a while.
But eventually, he
was given that --
he and his wife received
that honorary status.
He died in 1974.
And he asked to be
buried in Jerusalem.
So, he is.
This is his grave in the
Catholic cemetery on Mount Zion,
which is an interesting
story that he's there.
But people who -- that he saved,
worked for him on
a lot of issues.
And then there's another story,
even more perhaps interesting.
Because it's much less
known, this person.
His name is Mohamed Helmy.
He's an Egyptian.
And he was recognized in 2013 as
a Righteous Among the Nations.
The only Arab to be
in that position,
in that status, very
interesting.
Only a few months ago, his
family received the certificate.
It's not that the post was late.
They refused they
refused to take this
from an Israeli Institute,
until they found some --
someone from his family
who was already in his 80's
who knew him personally.
And was willing to take --
to accept this certificate
from Yad VaShem.
But not from -- he didn't
come to Israel for this.
He didn't go to an
Israeli ins --
usually if you need to give this
honorarium outside of Israel,
it's done by an Israeli diplomat
or an ambassador or consul,
anywhere in the world.
He didn't go there.
He went to a German
Institute in Berlin.
I don't remember exactly where.
And this is where he was
handed the certificate.
Because it was too
difficult, politically,
for them to accept something
from the State of Israel.
This is how, I mean, politics
get involved in -- even in this.
He's actually a very
interesting figure.
He was -- as I said,
he's an Egyptian.
He went to Germany to study
medicine and he succeeded.
He became a doctor.
He had -- but he was an
Arab, which means a Semite.
Therefore, he Was, in a way,
persecuted by the Germans.
Not exterminated,
but still persecuted.
He couldn't marry his loved
one, who was a German.
Eventually, after the war
-- I mean, during the war,
he saved a Jewish
girl and her mother.
And a few others with
with some help around.
And these people survived.
And they wanted to
recognize him.
And eventually Yad
VaShem accepted.
But as you see, the family
actually, delayed this
by four years, until they --
someone there was willing
to accept this honor.
Which is a sensitive issue.
I mean, okay.
There was also one
person from the Netherland
who received the honorarium.
And returned it just before
he died several years ago.
He returned it in protest
on Israel's policy
towards the Palestinians.
And specifically, because in
2014, in the war with Gaza,
several of his family members,
who are Palestinians,
died in that clash.
So, in protest, he
returned the honorarium.
Okay, again, politics
gets into this.
I'm coming towards
the end, I promise.
I just wanted to give you a
quick list of a commemoration
of the Holocaust in Israel.
You have names of Kibbutzim
and of other townships
named after them.
You have Kibbutz
Lochamei HaGeta'ot,
which I already Mentioned.
Udim, which is translated
into firebrands.
It means the last
remains of a community.
They establish the Kibbutz.
They established Udim.
Yad Hana, we heard here
earlier Hannah Senesh.
So, it's after --
this is after her.
And also, the Lehavot
Haviva, is after Haviva Reik.
Who was also a paratrooper
who was captured and killed
by the Germans in Hungary.
And there are numerous streets
named after famous victims
like Janos Kolchak [assumed
spelling] and others.
And of course, fighters like
Ansa Sereni [assumed spelling]
and other leaders [speaking
in foreign language].
And other leaders of uprisings
against the Germans all over.
So, you have a lot of this
commemoration in Israel.
There is also a commemoration
of the Righteous.
Raoul Wallenberg, as I said,
there are streets after him.
Jan Karski, is also a famous
name, who he's the person
who told the world
about the Holocaust.
Oskar Schindler, of
course, is very known.
Films help, but not just, right?
And there are parks
like these ones.
This is the official
Park in Jerusalem,
part of the Yad VaShem.
Where all of these
people, the Righteous,
are commemorated
in this park here.
And this is in the
city of Haifa,
they also have such a park.
And two quick things that I
wanted to say to add here is
with Israel's dealing
with the Holocaust.
A lot of this happened
through trials.
Trials for people who
persecuted Jews, right?
So, we have Eichmann, of course.
Who was found guilty and hanged.
The only person in
Israel to be hanged.
I mean, there is a
law in Israel to deal
with the Nazis and
their associates.
And he was convicted by this.
The judges decided to hang him.
They could not --
they could have not,
but they decided to
hang him for this.
And then his body was burned.
And the ashes were
spread outside
of Israel's territorial
water, in the Mediterranean.
That was in 1961.
This is the first time that
many Israelis really heard
of what was really going
on there in the Holocaust.
And in the 1980s, there
was the Demjanjuk trial.
This is a person that many
believed was [speaking
in foreign language],
Ivan the terrible.
One of the guards,
the vicious guards in,
if I remember, in Majdanek.
And this person, who was
an American citizen then,
was accused for being that.
He was put on trial.
And he was found not guilty.
But then he got in
a lot of trouble
because through this trial,
it was the American authorities
learned that he lied to them
about what he did during
during World War Two.
So, they took away
his citizenship
and sent him back home.
I mean, to Germany and
although he's Ukrainian.
And then he had trials there.
I mean, the attempts to try him
there, until he died a free man.
But not -- but in a
lot legal trouble.
Because everyone suspected
that the Israeli Court
actually, made a mistake.
And it was the person that
they were looking for.
So, this is -- these
are the only two trials
that were relevant.
There was one more in the 1950s.
It has to do with Israel itself.
I mean, someone who collaborated
in a way with the Germans,
in order to try to save people.
That's the Kosnell [assumed
spelling], the Kosnell trial.
But I -- this is not
really a part of this story,
so I decided not to
really mentioned this.
And a quick word about
foreign policy in all of.
this Eichmann was caught in
Argentina in 1961, 1960, sorry,
late 1960, by the Mossad,
the Israeli Intelligence.
This is what the Mossad was
doing, capturing Germans.
Germany was an enemy
state of Israel
until relations were amended
and established in the 1960s.
Germany was worse to Israel
than the Arab states around.
The big devil.
And he was caught in an
Argentina, of course,
it created a lot of troubles
between Israel and Argentina.
Because it was clear
that someone hijacked,
kidnapped an Argentinian.
Never mind who he was, he
had, of course, an alias name.
But still this was an issue.
And then Golda Meir, who was
representing Israel at that time
as Foreign Minister said,
we didn't send them, yeah.
You can't prove that.
And that was basically it.
She lied, but okay,
that's how it worked.
These are Israeli citizens who
did it, but we didn't send them.
So, this certainly,
had become an issue
between the two countries.
And also, of course, there
is a whole issue here
because Argentina had become
a -- housed many Nazis,
who escaped to Argentina.
It was a very welcoming country
to them and to their ideas.
And this became an issue
between Israel and Argentina.
But this is only one, of
course, with Germany itself,
Israel has reparations agreement
that was signed in 1952.
And the Germans since then,
Israel and Germany are warming
up to one another, have been
warming up, until eventually
in 1965 they established
diplomatic relations.
And nowadays Germany is one
of Israel's best friends
in the world, certainly
in Europe itself.
Including a major investment
that Germany does in Israel,
in providing Israel with
arms, specifically now.
I guess you also hear
about this now in the news
in the last two years,
is submarines,
which are becoming seem to be
a corruption issue in Israel
and therefore trouble.
But for the Prime
Minister that is.
But this is part of Germans --
Germany's commitment
towards Israel.
So the Holocaust does become
also an issue, certainly,
a practical issue in
Israel's foreign policy,
for better or worse.
With that I will end.
Thank you.
[ Applause ]
So, if you have questions.
>> Hi. At the beginning
of your lecture,
you talked about how the
current administration
in Israel has political
motivations
for teaching the
Holocaust a certain way.
And I was wondering if you
could elaborate on that?
>> Okay, I didn't want to.
But the whole idea now, I mean,
I mentioned at the beginning
that the Holocaust Memorial
Day is actually Holocaust
and Heroism Memorial Day.
Since 1977, since Menachem Begin
became Prime Minister in 1977,
Israel usually presents
itself as a victim.
Not as hero, not --
as a victim here.
And this is the position
where Israel is trying
to get things from the world.
We were victims and
so on and so on.
So, this is, in a way, what
the system now is trying
to embed also, in younger
generations to tell the story.
To tell how terrible
the Germans were
to the Jewish people
and so on and so on.
In order to continue
this position
of being victims, only victims.
This is also, of
course, this becomes --
I ended with foreign policy.
This is, of course, is a foreign
policy position to be in.
We're victims, therefore,
leave us alone about one two
or three things, Palestinians,
Palestinians, Palestinians.
I mean, leave us alone.
That's the whole thing.
Because we have been
victims here
and you owe us in a way, okay?
This is how, I guess, I
would bring it down to that.
Of course, it's more
complicated, but.
Yes.
>> You mentioned early on
that the, kind of the list
of survivors is grown
in recent years.
Is there a particular
reason for that
or what's the rationale
for that?
>> Okay. First of all, there
is some recognition that people
who should have been recognized
as Holocaust survivors,
were not.
One of the problems was that
say, in the 1990s when a mass
of about one million
Jews from Russia came,
there were no one
million Jews in Russia,
there were a lot less.
But the government recognized
everyone who even had one member
of the family Jewish,
all the family is Jewish.
That's a break from the from the
Rabbinate position in Israel.
The thing is that a lot
of them were not treated
in the Soviet Union as
Holocaust survivors.
So, suddenly you need to
expand that also to people
who found their way
into the Soviet Union,
as Holocaust survivors
because they were.
Now, that's the easy case.
Then you have the more
complicated cases of,
let's say people
who haven't been
through a concentration camp
or a death camp or anything.
But they just lived
under a regime
that either the German
occupation regime
or under any associated regime.
And then the question is,
are they or are they not?
Were they persecuted?
And what kind of
persecution will define them
as Holocaust survivors?
And then, of course, it
was also the recognition
of the North African Jews.
Who some of them were
deported to Auschwitz
and to other death camps.
And you need to also decide
if they meet a criteria
for becoming recognized
as Holocaust survivors.
It's not -- it's not
a clear answer here.
And sometimes you need to ask
every person what happened
to you, not as a community.
And of course, I
guess you should also,
I should mention
also, the politics.
There should be some
politics around, right?
Where a certain political group
or demographic group
is on the rise.
And they would want
also, to recognize them,
while before they weren't,
for different reasons.
There is -- I mean, being a
Holocaust survivor gives you
some, I guess, benefits from
the government, in a way.
So, a lot of people, as older
generation, as they get older,
it's in their benefit
to be there.
I didn't even talk about
treatment of Holocaust survivors
in Israel and how some of
them are doing very poor.
About one-quarter
of them are poor.
Most of them are very
lonely, the people.
And in terrible health,
a lot of them.
I'm not going to get into that.
There is always every campaign,
every election campaign
and probably there will be
in the coming year,
can follow that.
There is a talk about
we need to give more --
invest more in helping these
people, the Holocaust survivors,
getting them more budgets
in their last years of life.
Well, yeah, that's what they
say and usually it doesn't work.
Some governments actually
do increase their budget.
But sometimes they just
don't have that budget
for different reasons.
So, that's also part of the
question of how many are there
and how many -- how long does
the government still need
to allocate money for,
you know, to the future
until no one is there?
And I'm not even talking
about the other --
another issue, which is
all psychological in a way.
Second generation,
third generation.
Just think, I mean, my
father's generation,
my father specifically, didn't
have grandparents, right?
A lot of people didn't
have anyone,
just their parents, that's all.
No family around.
They don't know anything
like this.
And then they start
hearing things.
Many of them never heard of
directly from their parents
because their parents didn't
want to talk with them about it.
They were more open
with their grandchildren
about what happened to them.
I mean, this is a trauma
that people find very
difficult to live with.
And then tell your
children about this,
about what happened to you.
So, there are a lot of stories.
And then, of course, I mean,
this second generation,
will also need to be somehow --
is already recognized in a way
that needs to be treated
one way or another.
I mean, mostly psychologically
perhaps.
You have a lot of
issues with that.
Everyone has a story,
not only a name.
>> I'm wondering if there is
tension between the definitions
of survivors in Israel,
versus the definition the U.S.
Holocaust Memorial Museum uses
of anybody whose life was
affected by Nazi tyranny?
Which would include people
who were able to escape.
People who were in hiding.
People who get out --
the children who got out
on the Kindertransport.
And how it seems that the
definition, in Israel,
may not have included
those people.
And how, is there tension
between the two countries,
in terms of Holocaust
recognition?
>> Okay. In a way it
is -- there is one.
But I mean, I haven't
looked into the --
under the American definitions.
But it does seem that the
expansion that Israel is doing
in recent years,
is towards that.
Including more people that
actually were affected one way
or another by the Holocaust.
Yes, I guess that
that's the direction.
That's how it seems to me.
>> This is a little
bit off-topic.
I'm sure the Pols were very
happy to see that they had
so many rescuers in your graph.
But there are recent
pronouncements negating any kind
of involvement in the
Holocaust, are rather extreme.
Do you think that's a product of
the right-wing that has emerged
in political -- or to
dominate polish politics
over the past six years?
Or is it really the product
of a long-standing tradition
of anti-Semitism, that
has never really wavered?
>> Okay. I didn't really
want to get into this.
But into this -- but okay.
No, no because it's too fresh,
in a way and it's too --
we don't know everything yet.
We know only what's
publicly, right?
And certainly, it seems
that Pols now are trying --
the Polish government is
trying to in ways, say --
in a way it is a
traditional political position
that Poland has for many years.
That we were victims,
just like the Jews.
Which is something -- I mean,
we were victims of Germany.
They eliminated our
country, our state, right?
Our state Institute.
And also, the Jews,
I mean, the same.
But of course, the Professor
Dina Povat, Chief Historian
of Yad VaShem, says,
no you can't.
You can't do that.
I mean, you had some kind of a
choice, Jews were stuck there.
They -- and they were
also then persecuted.
Not only by the Germans,
but also by you the Pols.
In a way, I think that many
people aren't willing to say.
And I would hesitate
to say this,
but I guess that if more
Pols were bystanders,
more Jews would be alive.
And then what happened
eventually, okay?
Because a lot of them
collaborated even willingly
in killing and killing
and killing.
Which is -- which says yes,
there is a standard, I guess,
of some anti-Semitism
in in Poland.
That in a way, they
haven't addressed.
But certainly, the
Holocaust is not their doing.
That's for sure.
That's -- I mean, the German
Foreign Minister tweeted
that immediately
when this happened.
We did it.
I mean, they took
the whole blame.
They're doing it for almost 70
years, the Germans acceptance.
This is the reparations
agreement,
we are responsible for this.
The Pols, at least many of them,
have been collaborating
with them.
Indeed, there are a lot who
haven't, who have been resisting
and risking their own
lives by doing that.
And I'm sure that the numbers
that I showed here is
not everyone, not at all.
Some of them have
perhaps tried to save,
but either died by trying.
Or the people who they say --
who they saved, they didn't
survive to tell the story.
So, in a way, we
don't know about that.
But certainly, there was
in both directions, yes.
Both -- they were both
collaborating, that's for sure.
But also, trying to
save people around them.
Although, you know, they knew
exactly what would happen too,
if you were caught with
a Jew that you're hiding.
You're dead and probably your
family will die for that.
So, huge risks that
people needed to take.
I mean, they deserve
respect for what they did.
But to tell that
nowadays the German --
the Polish position is
historically accurate,
of course not.
It's political.
And then the question is,
is it just because of the
the rise of the right now?
Or is it more long-term?
I guess you can find both.
Both answers will be yes,
in a way, both questions.
I think positively, the
truth is the middle, right?
That's how I see it.
>> In talking about the North
Africans, made me wonder,
are Jews in Israel
still being taught
that the Holocaust was a
European Jewish tragedy only?
Or do they understand that at
Ramallah -- one in North Africa,
there were plans to wipe
out the Yishuv also.
And that throughout the
war, the Grand Mufti
of Jerusalem was
pressuring Hitler to hurry up
and put the Palestinian Jews
higher on the list of victims?
>> Okay. My students
know because I tell them
that it's not only in Africa
-- not only European, right?
They're here.
They can testify, some of them.
But in a way, I'd say that
this fact, that it was not only
in Europe, is something that
even for political reasons now,
it would be important
to tell students.
That it's not only
the Ashkenazi Jewry
that was wiped out, in a way.
It's also the Sephardi
communities that suffered.
And that in a way
again, it's politics.
Because nowadays in Israel,
I don't remember
exactly the proportions.
But there are certainly more
Sephardic than Ashkenazi's
in Israel, for years now.
They took over, I
mean, demographically.
The Holocaust did, of course,
its part in shrinking
the Ashkenazi Jewry.
And therefore, politically
they're on the rise in a way
that they also want this
recognition, yes it's also us.
It's not only the not
only the Ashkenazi's.
It's not only the
European Jewry.
Of course, you see stories.
Also, in Europe itself,
not everyone were
Ashkenazi Jews, right?
I mean you have in Greece,
the Greek are Sephardic.
In other -- you know
of these stories.
You know of all of this.
There is no surprise here.
But a lot of this
is not really --
was not, was not for many
years, put on the on the front.
Because there were bigger, yes,
communities that were perished.
And that was more
important than.
Nowadays, you hear
more of that, yeah.
I guess also in the
education system alone,
I have no connection to it,
to the education system,
that is, for many years.
>> Hi. So, one of the things
I notice, I've been aware of,
is that it seems like any
foreign diplomat or visitor
like president or whatever,
who comes to Israel,
has to go to Yad VaShem.
That's true, right?
And has the feeling -- so, I
think about that in the context
of this issue now, about you
know, the narrative of Israel,
as being victims, right?
Which certainly, it's, you
know, obviously, things happen.
But I'm just thinking about --
I think that's part of
also what you're saying.
It's sort of like we want to
make sure, whoever you are,
wherever you're from, that
you know this history.
And I can certainly make an
argument why that's important.
But I think part of
the challenge is,
is if that's the only -- if
that's the primary identity
of Israel, I see
that particularly,
as the years go on, of
being harder to maintain
as survivors die and children
of survivors, you know.
And I also think that it may be
one of the reasons why it's sort
of like you've made yourself
into identity as a victim
from the very beginning.
And now when you do things
that we think are immoral,
that are inconsistent.
You know, some of the
things that you know,
that is even more
shocking to people.
Because you've made
yourself so much
into being victims
of horrible crimes.
And some people now look at
things that are happening
and say, and you're doing
some of the same things.
So, it's -- I guess I'd like
for you to speak about kind
of the implications for the
country, of having had so much
of their identity caught
up in being victims.
>> I agree.
This is a part --
this is a problem.
This is, as I said, part
of Israel's foreign
policy to present itself.
And indeed, by bringing every
new president, whoever comes
to Israel to Yad
VaShem, is a thing.
They know they have to be there.
Well, you know, the current
American president how long he
was there what he
wrote in the note.
Quite embarrassing.
Perhaps he shouldn't
have been there.
You know that's -- but others
have been and everyone are there
and do they understand
indeed that this is part
of the Israeli identity, okay?
Now, that's fine, but sure
there are the implications
that say one thing that
I haven't touched here,
but I did mention in my
classroom, when I talked
about this, is that Israel
sells arms to countries.
That some of them are involved
in terrible atrocities, domestic
and foreign, which
is a big issue.
I mean, this is a moral issue.
Is it okay to sell arms?
[inaudible question].
Right. [inaudible question].
Right, right Also, also that.
Right. And also, I mean
now Israel has an agreement
with Rwanda, of all places, as a
safe haven for those Eritreans.
That Israel doesn't really want
to recognize them
as asylum seekers.
And then of course, it comes
back to the Rwandan genocide
and what Israel did or didn't
do, while that was happening.
And also, the question
of arming that country
and starting an alliance
with it.
And you see Netanyahu and
Kagame meeting quite a lot.
And already quite friendly with
one another on a lot of issues.
And actually, it's
interesting that a lot
of Holocaust survivors
have spoken
up against the government,
not to push these people out.
Because of their own
personal history of Israel
as the nation -- as the country
of the Jewish people,
we can't do that.
So, there's a whole struggle
over this, in Israel these days.
The government has its position.
But there are a lot of --
there's a lot of
opposition to that position.
>> Okay. Thank you.
[ Applause ]
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