[MUSIC PLAYING]
OUSMANE LOUM: I am
thrilled and super
excited to be your moderator
here today for today's talk.
Today's talk is about
a very interesting man,
a man whom maybe
many of you don't
know about, Ousmane Sembene,
the father of African cinema.
So Sembene spent about 50 plus
years of his life using his pen
and his camera to
tell African story.
Today, here, we have a Samba,
Professor Gadjigo, and Jason,
to help us learn
more about Sembene,
what he was about, and most
importantly, one of the things
that you guys are doing right
now with Sembene Across Africa.
So, Professor, if I may
say, [SPEAKING PULAR]
SAMBA GADJIGO: [SPEAKING PULAR]
OUSMANE LOUM: That's
all the Pular I know.
SAMBA GADJIGO: So we wind
up saying bad things.
So I'll just speak English.
OUSMANE LOUM: So Jason,
I heard that you speak
also some Wolof and [INAUDIBLE]
JASON SILVERMAN: [INAUDIBLE]
SAMBA GADJIGO: [INAUDIBLE]
OUSMANE LOUM: That's awesome.
So I'm so excited.
We have some really
great conversations.
And we will leave
15 or 10 minutes
at the end for some
Q&A. But Professor,
before we can dive into
Sembene and his work,
I want you to take a
minute or two, maybe
a few minutes, to learn
a bit more about you.
What was it like
growing up in Senegal?
Your childhood?
Tell us where you came from.
SAMBA GADJIGO: OK,
thank you, Ousmane.
And thank you all
for being here.
Of course, my name
Samba Gadjigo.
Like Ousmane, I
came from Senegal.
I grew up in a small
village, called
Kidira, right at the border
between Mali and Senegal.
Now, this was before
independence in 1960.
So I grew up in the late '50s.
At that time,
really, our village
was completely cut off
from the rest of the world.
And I grew up fishing,
hunting, and farming.
It might sound
very, very romantic.
And it was at the time, because
it was a free childhood.
So we really farmed what we ate
and we ate only what we farmed.
So I grew up in
that environment,
roaming around, and
really listening
to stories from our elders.
OUSMANE LOUM: That
is pretty amazing.
So what kind of activities did
you do growing up in Kidira?
SAMBA GADJIGO: Well after all
day of farming or fishing,
we had a very practical
form of education.
It was not education
derived from books.
It was education
derived from examples.
If you are male, you go with
your father to the field.
If you are female, you
go with your mother.
So we were divided.
We learned by experience, by,
as I said, going into the field,
going fishing,
and going farming.
And listening was
the most important,
because it was at the time when
really there was no newspapers,
there was no television.
I saw my first
movie when I was 12.
And I saw my first radio
broadcast, literally,
when I was 10.
So the only stories,
really, I heard
were stories told
by my grandmother
and the stories told by
elders in the village.
So those stories
shaped my perception
of myself, shaped my perception
of the outside world,
and also shaped my
relationship with that world.
So I could say I was very happy.
No credit card.
It was a great childhood.
OUSMANE LOUM: That's awesome.
So tell us a little
bit about the stories
that your grandma
told you about.
SAMBA GADJIGO: As I said, we
did not really learn from books.
Because if you look at many
parts of the African continent,
they were older cultures.
Until the advent of
Islam and colonization,
there was no writing.
So every thing was
transmitted orally.
So how do you
accumulate knowledge
when there is no technology
to archive all of it.
It was by transmission,
from word of mouth.
Those stories to teach you,
for instance, about honesty,
they would tell your
story about honesty.
To scare you to death,
they would tell you
about horror
stories, about lions,
about elephants, and
so on, and so forth.
And those stories without
you really thinking about it,
that it was shaping
your world view,
like an American kid
before being put to bed,
and learning about
Winnie the Pooh.
That's how you have
your world shaped.
So it was the stories that
really shaped my life.
OUSMANE LOUM: That
is pretty incredible.
So eventually, you
left that place, right?
How did you leave and how?
SAMBA GADJIGO: I left
my village at age 12.
That was really the cutting
of the umbilical cord,
so to speak,
metaphorically speaking.
Because in my own area,
about 400 miles away
there was no high school.
So I was 12.
There was a national
exam organized,
like it still
organized in Senegal
and many African countries.
And they select what I
would call a happy few
to take them to high school.
So there were two
of us that were 12.
I still remember, that was also
my first time to board a train,
at night, to go on a
14 hour ride, at 12.
And it wasn't just a
geographical displacement.
It was psychological.
It was emotional.
Because I was leaving my
region, where we spoke Fulani,
and I was going
to another region,
called Saint Louis
where they spoke Wolof.
And Saint Louis was
really the first city
that was created by the French,
who first to colonize Algeria,
and from Algeria,
went down south.
For Senegal was the first
region in sub-Saharan Africa
to be colonized.
So I went from a rural village,
where the world stopped
at the border of the village.
And then I went 400 miles to
another area, whose language
I did not even speak.
So it was thrilling when
I boarded the plane.
I was scared to death when
I landed in that platform.
I looked around.
Nothing was familiar.
So that's when I went to
Saint Louis at age 12.
OUSMANE LOUM: Wow, that
is pretty incredible.
So here you are, 12 years old,
in a new city, away from home.
And I imagine the big city,
like Saint Louis and Baghdad.
What was it like to be 12
years old, far away from home,
totally disconnected from your
family and to this new world.
SAMBA GADJIGO: Yeah,
when they announced
the result of the exam, of
course I was very, very happy.
I mean, who is not
a bush boy who would
dream of going into the city?
But then, very
quickly the thrill
was followed, as I told you,
with I was really scared.
First, it was cold, because
Saint Louis is in the north.
Second, I had never seen
so many cars in my life.
So it was-- in the village,
everybody knows everybody.
I remember going playing,
when it is mealtime,
nobody is going to look for you.
Because they know if you
are not in this house,
you are in the other house.
So there was a tight
communal link among us.
And now I'm going
to a city where
you have [INAUDIBLE] I mean,
the tribes are not there,
the connections are not there.
And it was my introduction to
an individualistic culture.
Because the city was already an
open door to the Western world.
And I had to learn
everything from scratch.
Of course, I did not have
the safety of my grandmother
being next to me.
So you grow up really fast.
At age 12, we learned a sense
of responsibility and taking
care of yourself.
OUSMANE LOUM: Wow so you
don't speak Wolof then
when you arrive in Saint Louis.
So you had to adjust speaking
Wolof to a different culture.
And then going to
school in Saint Louis.
Can you tell us a little bit
what was high school like?
SAMBA GADJIGO: Oh
yeah, it was stunning.
I still remember getting there.
It was a school
where I would say
it's for elite who are
selected from all the regions.
So we all find ourselves there.
Of course, big head, thinking
we are the best and brightest
in the world.
This image still
sticks in my mind.
Walking into my first
French classroom
and seeing that it
was a French woman who
was going to be my teacher.
Until age 12, I had never shared
four walls with a white person.
That was my first time.
And second, I had
a French teacher
who was from my Marseilles.
I don't know if you ever heard
someone from Marseilles speak.
Instead of saying
do [SPEAKING FRENCH]
bread, [SPEAKING FRENCH].
So it was--
I was completely lost.
And then we were forced to
read the French classics.
Instead of learning
about ourselves,
not only do we have to
master the French language,
you have to read Molliere,
Balzac, and so on and so forth.
So without realizing, we're
being really brain washed.
And at age 14 or 16,
if you woke me up
in the middle of the night, I
could recite Les Miserables,
chapters, paragraphs of "Les
Miserables," or [INAUDIBLE]
or whatever.
And if you asked me,
Samba, what are you?
Very seriously, I would
tell you, I am French.
Because the textbooks we
read drilled in our head
that the only culture
worth talking about
is the French culture.
The only literature
worth talking about
is French literature, because
they considered literature
that which was only written.
Other literature was not
considered as being literature.
So at age 16, I was
completely gone,
not only geographically from my
village, but I was culturally--
and I like to use an
image saying, at age 16--
and I learned that word when
I came to the United States--
an Oreo cookie, meaning to be
black on the outside and white
on the inside, culturally.
That's basically what
I had become at age 16.
Complete stranger from my
village and a complete stranger
into the new culture, neither
one nor the other, and both
at the same time.
So that's how my
situation was at age 16.
OUSMANE LOUM: Wow, so you
went to some really deep
assimilation into
this French culture.
So then what happened?
SAMBA GADJIGO: It was--
I don't know if you have
ever experienced this, having
one single encounter
one day that
completely changed your life.
Well, for me, it had
happened through a book.
Someone gave me a first novel
written by a Senegalese.
The title is "Les Bouts de Bois
de Dieu" in French, of course.
Because the work was
written in French.
But there was a
subtitle that says,
[SPEAKING WOLOF]
is in Wolof, which
is the national
language of Senegal.
That was the first shock, to see
a language of Senegal, or book
written by a Senegalese,
with the title
in an African language.
That was one.
Second, in all the
French textbooks
we read, if Africa
was at all mentioned,
Africans were not shown
in their humanity.
Africa was at the
periphery of the world.
And the white colonizer
was the eternal winner.
And the black folks were losers.
And that novel really was a
recreation of an event that
happened in West
Africa in 1947, when
the first time after
the war-- of course,
there was some
political awakening.
And the trade unions
were starting really
to gain consciousness
of their rights.
So the novel portrays
the first union strike
between Senegal and Mali.
And guess what?
One of the characters
named was Samba, like me.
That was first time.
And the second,
these black workers,
not only organized
themselves, resisted
against the white
colonizers, but they won.
This was the first time I see a
black person winning anything,
or even being at the
center of a narrative.
For me, it's-- excuse
me, using this word--
I mean, all of a
sudden, 16-year-old,
aspiring to be French,
and I completely
lose my political virginity,
if I can use that word.
And I realized that
literature is not innocent.
Literature is political.
And I discovered that, yes,
you can be a black person.
You are not better than
anybody, but nobody is better
than you are.
And all of a sudden, you
discover your humanity.
And it gives you
a certain agency.
And that happened,
that mental fracture
happened to me at age 16.
And it happened with a book.
And that book
actually was written
by Sembene, to whom I devoted
the rest of my scholarship.
OUSMANE LOUM: Wow,
that's pretty amazing.
I highly recommend the book,
"Les Bouts de Bois de Dieu,"
by Ousmane Sembene.
Definitely, if you haven't
read it yet, do so.
So Professor, what happened?
What happened after
you discovered Sembene?
So you're here now in the US.
SAMBA GADJIGO: Yes,
I was aspiring--
my generation, born
in the mid-50s,
of course we'll go
to the university.
All the dream was
to have an MBA.
I didn't even know what it was.
But everybody was going
to the US to do MBA.
I wanted to do MBA too.
But then, since, as I told
you, "God's Bits of Wood"
had planted already
a seed in my mind.
But ironically, I go through
the university in Senegal,
you could not find
that book anywhere.
It was not in the curriculum.
The same way, I
think, if you were
from Ghana or from
Nigeria, you are
more likely to read
about Shakespeare
than to read about
Willie Soyinka
or read any other
African writer.
But I arrived at the
University of Illinois.
I go to the library.
And what do I discover, they had
all books written by Sembene.
They had all films made
Sembene, which you could not
find in any African library.
So here is 26-year-old
coming to the United States.
I hardly spoke any English.
I wanted to be an MBA.
And I discovered these things.
All of a sudden, another change.
No more MBA, I'm going
to do African studies.
Are you crazy?
You are going to United States,
instead of looking for money,
you are looking for
African studies?
I said, yes.
So I did African studies.
I did my PhD in African studies.
And then devoted all
the rest of my career
doing research on Sembene.
OUSMANE LOUM:
That's pretty cool.
So many, many years later, you
made a movie about Sembene.
You both made a
movie about Sembene.
So Jason, can you tell us, what
is this movie about, Sembene?
JASON SILVERMAN: Well, when
we started making the movie,
we decided right
away it was going
to be a story
about storytelling,
about the power of
storytelling, and about how--
a question-- who gets to tell
the stories that define us?
And Sembene is a really
remarkable figure
because he decided
that he was going
to restore African stories.
His own biography is
an incredible story,
which Samba knows much about.
SAMBA GADJIGO: Yes, why
did I decide to do Sembene.
In a nutshell, I'll call him--
I call Sembene an ordinary man
who did extraordinary things.
And there was so
many connections.
Like Sembene-- like me, Sembene
came from a small village.
I came from a family
of wood carvers.
Sembene was the
son of a fisherman.
But I think the
similarities stopped there,
because at age 13, he beat his
good teacher, who was French,
and was expelled from school.
So a third grade
dropout, became a mason.
He started going into
construction work.
Then during World War
II, like many Africans,
he was forcibly enrolled into
the French Colonial Infantry
Unit, to will fight for
the liberation of France.
After the war, he finds himself
in Marseilles as a dock worker.
I don't know if you have
ever seen a dock worker,
like when the ship arrives.
At the time, they did not
have all these containers.
So it was human being lifting
these two 200 pound bags
and putting them in trucks.
So Sembene did that.
In 1951, while doing that,
he broke his backbone.
Well, while he was at the
hospital, during six months,
he started reading.
He discovered literature.
And all of a sudden,
like a Eureka moment--
my god, I read all these books.
I read Richard Wright who
talked about Americans.
Nobody is talking about
the African working class.
Nobody is talking
about African farmers.
Nobody is talking about
the African woman.
Well, I am going
to teach myself how
to write in order to be
the voice of the voiceless.
And he made it happen.
OUSMANE LOUM: That's
pretty incredible.
Can you tell us a little bit
more like what he was about?
And if there was like
one or two things
you wanted to know about
Sembene, what those would be.
SAMBA GADJIGO: Well, he
is a unique filmmaker.
For someone who has grown up,
of course, in the United States,
there is a new movie that comes
out-- let's take, for instance,
"Black Panthers."
The next day, you have articles
in "The New York Times,"
the first thing they talk
about is the success at the box
office, meaning money, how
profitable is the film.
Well, Sembene made films not for
entertain-- yes, entertainment,
of course, but he
conceived of them
as the replacement for
the African traditional
storytellers who had been wiped
out by the colonial adventure.
So his films-- and this
is a direct quote--
is an evening school to
educate the African masses.
I think to give you an
idea, an outlook of Sembene,
and how he's different from
your average filmmaker,
be it African,
Indian, or Nigerian--
he had a big poster
at his study at home
with a poster of
Lenin, the father
of the Soviet revolution.
And there was a caption--
an artist should
make money in order
to live and work, but
never live and work
in order to make money.
It's fascinating, at a time
when money is driving the world,
you have this
individual saying, I'm
going to use my work,
my written work,
to fight for African political
and cultural liberation.
For me, at least,
I think that is
what is unique about Sembene.
JASON SILVERMAN: The
quote that opens our film
is, "If Africa
loses its stories,
Africa will disappear."
And so he spent 50 years
trying to restore or reclaim
these stories for Africa.
OUSMANE LOUM: Wow,
that's pretty cool.
JASON SILVERMAN: And he taught
himself how to make movies.
There was no infrastructure
when he arrived back
in Senegal from Marseilles.
There was no trained crew.
There was no funding.
He had to figure everything
out from scratch, basically.
A lot of times, there's
not electricity.
And he had to invent the
African cinematic form,
because no one was using
movies to tell African stories.
So he did that all himself,
after teaching himself
how to write, and writing
three successful novels.
He was something of a celebrity
in France before he left.
SAMBA GADJIGO: That's right.
JASON SILVERMAN: The dock
worker who wrote novels.
And then he took that
fame, and left it behind,
and moved back to Senegal,
and found a camera,
and started shooting.
SAMBA GADJIGO: Actually that
is, I think, something to add.
Yes, as Justin said, of
course, between 1956 and 1960,
he had written three novels.
And all the novels were
really to participate
in the liberation of Africa.
Then he arrives
in Senegal, 1960,
he discovered oh, my god, I
wrote these books in French,
and 82% of the Senegalese
do not read in French.
So therefore, it's
really talking to a wall.
Well, that's when,
as Jason said, well,
I'm going to try to find
another medium which
is going to reconcile
me with African people.
How can I talk to the
Senegalese farmer?
How can I talk to the
Senegalese fisherman?
Well, I think the
best way to do it
is to use the technology
of filmmaking.
So that's when, again, as
Justin said, he decided--
he was, I think, 40--
to sail to the Soviet
union and to teach himself
how to make films, just
so that he could reconnect
with the African people.
OUSMANE LOUM: That
is impressive.
So Sembene as a writer
transformed as a filmmaker.
So how hard was it for
him back then to make
his first movie in Senegal?
SAMBA GADJIGO:
Well, I think Justin
has started touching on that.
He arrives in Senegal.
Nobody had made a film before.
JASON SILVERMAN:
And it was illegal.
SAMBA GADJIGO: Yeah,
it is actually illegal,
because the French
and the British
had very early on understood
the subversive nature
of filmmaking, that really
the camera was a weapon.
The same way they had realized
that the pen was a weapon.
So for instance,
here in the history
of African-American
slavery, I mean,
they were prohibited even
from reading or writing,
because the barrel of the pen
was like the barrel of the gun,
basically.
So the French legislation
issued a decree, no African
is allowed to pick up a
camera from 1945 to 1960
to portray its own people.
So it was prohibited.
So it was criminalized.
So Sembene came back, no money.
He had an old 16-millimeter
camera, which he was given.
Nobody-- since nobody had made
money in Senegal, of course,
there was no film industry,
no distribution channels,
no actors.
What did Sembene do?
With that old camera,
he went in the street.
His friends became his actors.
Family members became his crew.
And he literally,
singlehandedly,
with his bare hands, he
invented African cinema in 1963.
Everybody who makes a
film today in Africa
has followed in the
footsteps of Sembene.
OUSMANE LOUM: So if we looked at
his work between 1963 to 2004,
he made about nine
feature films.
Can you tell us a little
bit more about those films,
the teams, and what issues
Sembene was dealing with?
SAMBA GADJIGO: Yeah, I'll let--
well, I'll define this idea,
then maybe let Jason
elaborate on that.
I mean, yes, you're
right, his filmography
was stunning within
the context of Africa.
I know in the
United States there
are people who make a
film every other year.
And it's very heroic
on a continent
where there is no
industry, there's
no, funding there's
no state support
to make even one feature
film, Sembene made nine
and a handful of short films.
And, of course, I cannot-- it
would take a semester seminar
to get into all of those works.
But I think that he
dealt with his own issues
Africa is facing.
But I think that two, three
themes that could help
structure the diversity of
the themes he dealt with.
First, it is African
independence,
because starting the
19th century, 1885,
the continent was divided
among the Western powers, what
they called the sharing of
the African cake in Berlin.
So England, France, Portugal,
shared the continent.
For Sembene, the first
thing was to fight
for political independence,
like our political leaders did,
like Kwame Nkrumah in
Ghana for instance.
So he wanted to do in
literature and film
what those people were doing.
So political independence
is the first thing.
But Sembene was also
one of those artists who
was convinced that the
only possible survival
for the continent, at
least after independence,
was justice within
each of the states--
liberation of women,
liberation of the marginalized,
the sharing of justice,
and so on, and so on.
That is the second.
So you have the first,
which is independence.
The second, which is justice--
actually, he calls it socialism,
because he's convinced
that capitalism will
never liberate Africa,
but that it is social.
And the third element,
which, actually, he
inherited from luminaries
like Du Bois, [INAUDIBLE],,
and so on, and so forth,
was the reunification
of a continent that was cut into
pieces by the colonial divide.
So three themes-- independence,
justice, and pan Africanism.
Those are the
three major themes.
Whatever film you
take, I think those are
the currents that are running.
I don't know if
you could address
any of the individual films.
JASON SILVERMAN:
Abuse of power--
I mean, he was very--
a lot of his films
deal with corruption.
And so a lot of them
were banned because they
offended the leadership.
Yeah, I think that
covers it well.
He also wanted to restore
or update oral history
and turn it into a
new modern medium.
So his films were
really inventive,
formally and technically too.
SAMBA GADJIGO: He's
the first one--
I mean, he made his first three
films, I think, in French.
But then the
revolution in 1968, he
started making films
in African languages.
He's the first ever to
make a film in Wolof.
And now you go to Ghana,
you go to Nigeria,
you go to Burkina
Faso 90% of the people
are making their films into
African languages, which really
helps to reconnect the African
artist to the African public.
And that is also something
that was initiated by Sembene.
OUSMANE LOUM: So
[INAUDIBLE] also
was your project,
Sembene Across Africa,
you went to a
great length to get
that work known into the world.
What is this project about?
Can you tell us about
Sembene Across Africa?
What is it about?
SAMBA GADJIGO: Yeah,
we talk about Sembene
having made nine films.
It was very, very heroic.
But the sad reality--
under this is not only Sembene--
the sad reality is
it's is easier to find
or novel written by an African
or a film made by an African,
is easier to see it in
Seattle, Washington,
in London, in Paris, or
in Toronto, than to see it
in Africa itself.
So our stories were taken away
from us before independence.
We re-appropriate those stories.
Guess what?
They're here sleeping in
the Western libraries.
You could spend six-- you know
this, you're a Senegalese.
You could spend
six months in Dakar
without seeing one
single Senegalese film.
So that's why Jason
and I decided well,
how can we be innovative?
Of course, we are always broke.
We don't have money to do it.
We volunteered for 10 years
to do this kind of work.
Jason and I decided, OK,
let's find a way or a program,
or project, which
would allow us,
at least symbolically
to start with,
to give back the
stories to Africans.
So we labeled it
Sembene Across Africa.
We started it in 2017
on the 10th anniversary
of Sembene's passing.
We took our documentary,
got some funding
from the Ford Foundation.
We flew back to Senegal.
And we gave micro grants
to different localities.
Actually, not only
Senegal, we gave money
to 38 African countries.
And we sent free
copies of our films.
And in 72 hours, one
weekend, 38 African countries
were able to see Sembene's film.
So that's what we call, of
course, Sembene Across Africa.
But as Jason can
elaborate, for us,
Sembene is only a
stepping stone to do more.
Not only to show
our documentary,
but to show Sembene's
films, but also
to show other African films.
JASON SILVERMAN: Yeah, the
project was a symbolic one.
We basically reached out to our
contacts across the continent,
and said, would you like to
show the film in any way?
Most of the cultural programming
here and in developing
countries is top
down programming,
where an NGO will decide what
to show, or what to share,
or how to show it.
And they'll spend
substantial money to do that.
This was the opposite.
We just gave funds
and the resources
to communities, to educators.
There was cafes in Johannesburg,
and elementary schools
in Cameroon, a military
camp, churches,
a book club in rural Rwanda.
Whoever thought that
these stories could
be useful to their
community and was motivated
to share these
stories, we gave them
the films, including
some of Sembene's films,
money they would need,
sometimes for a generator.
Some of the screenings
were during the winter,
so they would need blankets and
fireplaces, some for marketing.
So they would figure
out how to do it.
And they did it.
And over the three
years we've done it,
I think there's been
400 public screenings.
We've done broadcasts
of the films
across the continent,
free streams of the films
across the continent.
And the response
has been incredible.
People are hungry
for these stories.
And so we feel
like there's a way
to do this in a
bigger, bolder way.
OUSMANE LOUM:
That's very awesome.
So looking at the 4 billion
people in this world--
I mean, the 7.7
billion, 4 billion
are considered to
be voiceless, how
do you see this project
help close that gap
and address this issue, like
Sembene's work, bringing voice
back to the voiceless?
SAMBA GADJIGO:
Yeah, again, Jason
has started talking about that.
I mean, what we did
was only symbolic,
because we did not
have all the resources.
All we had was
really our vision,
and the concern of the
citizens of the world who
gave us the money.
So our vision is
really to create,
to have the resources to be
able to, on a daily basis,
to make those stories available
to the African people.
So we are open to any
kind of partnership,
to any kind of support.
Because those stories, yes,
they're Senegalese stories,
yes, they're African
stories, but freedom is not
an African story.
It is a universal story.
Liberation of the oppressed
is not Senegalese.
I mean, it's universal.
So I think our vision is one
day to reach a level where
those stories can cross
borders, create a synergy
and to create a
dialogue among cultures.
I mean we live in a
media monoculture.
And when you go
back to Kidira, you
see there's not people telling
stories around the fire
anymore.
There's people watching Western
TV and Brazilian telenovelas.
And that's a loss for everybody.
It's a loss that these
stories don't exist,
that Sembene's stories are
not accessible in Africa
and elsewhere, that I'm not
able to see them oftentimes,
because I'm enriched and
deepened by these stories.
So the question is is how can
we leverage new technologies
to create more diversity in
our global media environment.
And Sembene is a great
example of someone
who did it by any
means necessary.
I mean, it was really
hard to do what he did.
Working with 16 and 35
millimeter film in Africa
is, like Samba said,
a heroic endeavor.
But today, it's not
that difficult to do.
I mean, anyone with a cell
phone that has a camera
can make a movie and
upload it to YouTube.
So there's a way in which
we can use new technologies
to share stories that come
from the grassroots, that come
from indigenous communities.
But it's scattershot
at this point.
So the question becomes, how
do you organize all that energy
in such a way that people have
access on a continuous basis?
People can use these stories
to knit together communities
that have been split
apart by globalism.
And these are the
questions that this project
got us thinking about.
OUSMANE LOUM: Yeah, this
is really fascinating.
The first time I heard
about this project,
I was on a transatlantic flight
going back home to see my mom.
And I sat next to Samba.
And he shared with me
the work he was doing.
And I saw the potential
impact around it.
It sounds like you do
have some challenges
in scaling up just project.
And what I'm hearing
is this is a narrative
technology could help.
Could you tell us more
about your challenges
and maybe what is needed to
scale up this initiative?
JASON SILVERMAN: Well,
I mean, Samba's right.
This is a kitchen table project.
Samba works at his kitchen table
in South Hadley, Massachusetts.
I work at my kitchen table
in Santa Fe, New Mexico.
And we've been able to do this.
And the thing that
energizes us is the response
from the communities
to the opportunity
to share these stories
with their communities.
And so the question becomes,
, how can it become something
that's sustainable?
And how can we
reach more people?
We've reached a lot of people
with a little bit of money.
Can we find ways to
make these stories
available on a continuous basis?
Can there be a library of
stories that's available?
Can we create events
that are larger in scale,
that can reach more people?
And the questions
on how to do that
involve just the basic
technological questions.
How do we store this material?
How do we share it?
How do we protect it from--
how do we protect the
copyright of this material?
Marketing questions-- how do
we reach all of these audience?
And of course,
resource questions,
how do we fund it
so it's continuous?
SAMBA GADJIGO: So I've
been at it for a while.
I think this is a
good stopping point,
now that we segue
into the technology
part and the [INAUDIBLE].
So I'm going to open it up
for some Q&A, some questions,
from our audience.
AUDIENCE: So thank,
you first of all.
Going back to when you were
talking about the community
feel, growing up, and how
that's different from the very
individual way that we
live today, is there,
in your opinion,
a way to recapture
some of this, given
the way we live
and that it's not
really going to stop?
I feel myself
wanting some of that,
but I just don't
know what we can do.
SAMBA GADJIGO: That's a
very interesting question,
and as Sembene and
I travel the world,
we get that question
all the time.
How do we recreate this
kind of idealistic past?
Well, Sembene's answer
and my own answer
is that a river were never
flows back to its source.
I think we cannot--
we should not-- it's
not even desirable
that we reinvent
the African past.
But how can we take what
is valuable in that past,
combine it with something
new, and create a new Africa?
Which would be a synthesis,
a symbiosis of our dialogue
with the rest of the world.
There is no way you can
go back to my village,
recreate my village, and
recreate the circumstances
under which I grew up.
But there are certain values,
I think, that could taint,
that could determine
our modernity.
Family, collective interests,
for instance, commonality,
re-appropriating our stories.
I'm not thinking we can bring
back the [INAUDIBLE] who
have died, about 100
years, but how can we
use a camera and a pen
to unearth those stories
and to make them count,
not exoticism, just
something at the margin.
But how can those
values can help Africans
confront the modern world.
Just one example.
In terms of languages, you go
to Nigeria, you go to Liberia,
you go to Ghana today, people
speak their national languages.
But only Western languages
are official languages--
the language of education,
the language of trade,
the language of diplomacy.
Meaning then the
majority of the languages
are minority languages
when it comes
to giving agency to people.
If you want to succeed
today in Africa,
you have to know English,
you have to know French.
How can we change
that situation?
Use our own languages to
create our own modernity?
It is doable.
It's a matter of political will.
Sembene did show it by
making films in Wolof, right?
Ayi Kwei Armah has done it
by writing a beautiful novel,
"The Beautyful Ones
Are Not Yet Born."
How can you, in Kenya, Ngugi
wa Thiong'o who teaches here
at Irvine, started
writing books in Kikuyu.
Boubacar Boris Diop is
writing books in Wolof.
So those are things I think
we can take from the past,
revitalize them.
And use them for our survival,
not only survival for us
to thrive in the modern
world, but Africa of the past
is not going to come back.
Because water doesn't
flow back to its source.
JASON SILVERMAN: I think
it's important to recognize
that we've been programmed to
be individualistic and separate
ourselves from our community.
I mean, that's one thing that
Western media does to us.
And every time we
watch a movie, there's
a superhero who's saving
the world on our behalf.
And no superhero has
ever saved the world.
It's always been
collective action
that's made positive
change in the world.
There's no Hollywood films about
celebrating collective action,
I mean very few.
And so we're taught that
we're at our best when
we're on our own.
And Sembene's films always
celebrated the collective
and celebrated the community.
People did things together
when change was made.
And I don't think
that's atypical.
I think a lot of films outside
of the commodity culture
are made and stories
are told that celebrate
us working together.
And so I think it's
important to recognize
how our brains have programmed
us to behave the way that we
behave.
Does that address the question?
AUDIENCE: Yeah, thank you.
I mean, my father's
from Jamaica,
so I hear stories
of how he grew up,
which are similar, in a
village, very tight knit.
I don't have kids
yet, but I hope to.
So it's a big question for me.
How can I take, like
you're saying, the essence,
and at least mold
that into the reality
that I am a part of today.
JASON SILVERMAN: You
know, the Google mission
is inspiring to me, the idea
that we make information
available and accessible.
I think Sembene would have
approved of that mission.
The idea was there are stories
that are lost and buried,
and they need to be
unearthed and shared
if we are going to
connect with each other
and make real progress.
AUDIENCE: So you
mentioned Sembene's movies
where about an independence,
social justice, pan Africanism.
And I think those same
themes still exist today,
just in different forms.
My question is, what are your
thoughts around making movies
or theatre a tool for
socioeconomic transformation
back in Africa?
So that's my first question.
And my second
question is just, I
love the work you
guys are doing.
It's really inspirational.
I grew up in Ghana.
And this is my first
I'm hearing of Sembene.
So just shows the
huge gap we have
when it comes to
information and how much we
know about our own people.
But my second question is,
how do you raise the next
generation of Sembene's?
SAMBA GADJIGO: That's a
million dollar question.
Yes, I think the themes that
Sembene dealt with in his work
are still with us, really.
I think Sembene was a visionary.
He saw the future.
I mean his future
is our present.
And I think all
the problems he had
seen we are still living-- the
problem of the reunification
of the continent.
Most African countries
gained independence in 1960.
What is called The
Organization of African Unity
was created since 1963.
We're still talking about
uniting the continent.
And when you look at Sembene's
films, mostly the films that
were set in Senegal,
they're all depicting
a local black bourgeoisie,
which has hijacked
our national independence.
So the issue of social
justice is still there.
Independence, one example, still
the formal 14 French colonies
in Africa.
They're still using a currency
that is controlled by France.
All our resources are
controlled by Europe.
So issue of political, economic,
and social independence
is still current.
But Sembene was one of
these visionaries who really
understood that
slavery, colonization,
and oppression came through
stories that we're told.
That therefore, even if you
showered Africa with billions
today, as long as there's no
cultural freedom, the freedom
to use our languages, freedom
to create our own myths,
create our own
metaphors, the continent
will always be in the yolk
of foreign occupation.
So those are the issues
that Sembene dealt with.
Those are the issues my
generation is dealing with.
That is the issue your
generation is still
dealing with in Africa.
I mean, we are here in
Seattle, Washington.
There is a saying
in my language,
they say when you see a
frog jumping in the hot sun,
because there is no peace
under the water pot.
What are the
conditions that need
to be created in Africa, so
we all go back to Africa?
And it does not mean
to shut our ourself out
of the rest of the world.
But how we make it in
such a way that Africa
is our reference in the world?
And I think that the
challenge Sembene faced,
the challenge we are
facing, the challenge
you are facing, now what
Africa are you going
to create for your children?
I think that is
the main question.
And it is a collective
responsibility.
What we are doing,
as Jason said,
is a symbolic, small way for
us to contribute towards that.
But we all have that same
responsibility, in my view.
AUDIENCE: So you can
you comment a little bit
on the second part
of the question,
how do we raise the next
generation of Sembenes?
How do we bring them?
SAMBA GADJIGO: Go ahead, Jason.
JASON SILVERMAN: Well,
Sembene can inspire people
to tell their own stories.
I think that's the
most important part,
is anyone who makes an
independent film can talk
about how difficult it was,
but the degree of difficulty
that he faced was extreme.
And he still did
it, because he was
motivated to use stories
to make a better world.
So that's not an
African inspiration.
And the next generation of
Sembenes can be anywhere.
They can be in any--
from any inner city,
from any rural community,
anywhere across
the world, anyone
who feels like this story's
not being told, who feels
empowered to tell
that story themselves.
And I think the
technological opportunities
lower the barriers to
entry to such an extent
that anyone can do it
if they feel motivated.
And so what I would
hope for this project
is that more young people
will say I can do it.
And that's one
way to raise them,
is to introduce young
filmmakers, young artists,
young writers, to works that
really resonate with them
and create some
sort of alternative
to the monoculture that is
swamping a lot of the world
right now.
And I think that the
tools that are available
make it so much easier,
that it's really
just a matter of communicating
the idea to people.
AUDIENCE: Jason you said
earlier that these stories,
they really enriched
you and inspired you.
And you mentioned also that
when you visit countries,
you go back to your
home country, Senegal,
they're watching
Western films mostly.
And some of these films,
a lot of the films
that were even made
there, might not
have been made in
a local language.
And also that we need
to garner support
in order to enrich these
programs and spread them.
Are there any things being--
so this is interesting for me,
because I'm enriched
by being here.
And largely, I'm here,
thanks to this Ousmane,
who was able to bring this.
So there's like a
lot of coincidences
that had to happen in order
for me to get this enrichment.
Are there things being done
here to spread Sembene's films,
so that people here
can be inspired,
and maybe it can gain momentum?
Because I feel like
there's a lot of hunger at
places to show films like
this, at local coffee
shops and those kind of things.
Is there anything like around
here, not even necessarily
Seattle, but--
JASON SILVERMAN: I
mean, I think YouTube
is that is a great
democratizing force, in terms
of global media.
I mean, it's providing
content on demand
for people around the world.
And the question is
can these platforms
be used to help
strengthen community,
and to open people's
minds, and to inspire them,
and to bring meaning
into the world,
and to encourage critical
thinking, and creative problem
solving.
And I think they can.
The way that Samba and
I talk to each other
is greatly enriched by
the depth of understanding
we have for Sembene's films.
We have a language
that helps us talk
about how to solve problems.
And so it's a question of
how do we connect people
to the content that
already exists.
Is there a way to
strengthen those--
to deepen those channels,
and to make them--
because a lot of the work
is available or could easily
be available.
People don't know it yet.
And they might not
know how to watch it.
And they might not watch it
within community, which also
strengthens your experience.
So those are
questions that I think
can be fairly easily
addressed through technology.
SAMBA GADJIGO: I think the
technology that's available
now, is how to take the
African specific content
to make it available and
to give it back to Africa.
Every year, there are
hundreds of films that are
being made on the continent.
In Senegal, at least
each year, there
is at least one feature film
that is made in Senegal.
So I think if outlets, like
Google, or any other support
would take that content--
I mean, people are spending
all their days in Senegal,
in my village, for instance,
watching Indie movies
on their cell phones.
What can we do to make sure--
yes, they can keep on
watching Indie movies.
It's good.
Because whatever you get from
the other is enriching for you.
But you have to start yourself,
how can we take African content
and make it available
through the technology,
so that Africa can share
it not only among Africans,
but also share it with
the rest of the world.
And I think that is
something very symbolic
we should not lose.
The fact that this
guy from Connecticut,
and me from Senegal,
were able to work,
to have the same vision,
and for 10 years,
through our kitchen
table, to create this.
It means that it is
doable when there is
a vision, the political will.
I think now the
technology is here.
JASON SILVERMAN: And
it's not just Africa.
SAMBA GADJIGO: It's everywhere.
JASON SILVERMAN: These
kinds of projects
can happen anywhere, once
an infrastructure is built,
once models are
built, that could
encourage people to connect
with media that matters to them.
I love that you reflected
back the fact that how
I was enriched by this,
how you're enriched by it.
And it's important to know
that these stories are not
one-way streets.
They're not closed loops.
The more that we hear from other
cultures and other communities,
the more open minded we become.
The more open minded we
become, the more flexible
we become in problem solving.
And obviously, we need a
lot of critical thinking
right now to solve these global
problems that are facing us.
I think stories are
not secondary to that.
I mean, obviously,
they're at the forefront.
And Sembene recognized that.
I mean, Sembene could have
been president of Senegal.
He could have been--
he was offered a
ministry in Senegal.
But he decided that the
battleground for him
was storytelling.
AUDIENCE: It seemed
like Sembene was
self-taught in a lot of ways.
And even from the
bits of his films
that were in the
documentary, he seemed
to have a kind of
an original style.
But I don't quite know
how to describe it.
And I haven't seen
a lot of his work.
Can you talk a little bit
about the characteristics
of his visual style or his
storytelling technique?
SAMBA GADJIGO: Like many
other African filmmakers,
Sembene got his training abroad,
in the Soviet Union, in 1962.
That was, of course,
during the Cold War.
I mean, of course,
the Soviet Union
also wanted to have a
share of the African cake,
by supporting a lot
of African filmmakers.
So Sembene learned out to make
films in the Soviet Union.
Of course, was also influenced
by the Soviet realist
type of making films.
I mean, he's crazy about Lenin.
I quoted his poster of Lenin
at his door with the caption.
But also Sembene lived
in France for a long time
and has contacted many
French filmmakers.
And you could also see in his
early films, the first three
films, a certain touch of
Italian neo-realist influence,
of course, capturing
not the high culture,
but the everyday life.
But then, I think,
starting in 1968,
I think I alluded to that,
when he started making films
in Wolof, he started
searching for what
he called an authentically
African film language.
Because you have 55
African countries.
You have thousands of languages.
You have thousands of cultures.
How to cross those linguistic
and cultural barriers
and to make a film that could
speak to the entire continent.
So there is one phrase
he used sometimes.
He said, well, our
languages are so many,
that an African
filmmaker should try
to find a way whereby we
start hearing with our eyes
and seeing through our ears.
Which means, through gesture,
through other devices,
through shared
cultural practices.
How can we read a
film without using--
actually, his
vision was maybe we
should return to the silent film
and use all the resources that
are pertinent to
African culture,
so that a film made
in Burkina Faso
could be understood
in the Sudan,
or a film made it
in the Sudan could
be understood in South Africa.
Yes, and I think
the starting point
was the African languages.
And from 1968, to
his death in 2017,
all his films are
in African language.
Not only Senegalese languages,
because his last film
was in Dura.
And Dura is a language from
Mali, [INAUDIBLE],, and Senegal.
So yes, there was
Western influence.
We all are--
I mean you cannot be exposed
to it without being influenced.
And I think it's
very salutary too.
We take everything we can
from anywhere we can get it.
But also, we have
to create our own.
I think that Sembene
his entire life
has been searching for that's
something that we create
a dialogue among all Africans.
That's what I would call
Sembene's film language.
JASON SILVERMAN: It was very
economical language too.
He didn't have a
lot of resources.
So he would shoot fairly simply,
especially at the beginning.
There is a crane shot
in his last film.
And that's his crane shot for
his entire 40 year career.
And he was very interested
in sound, as Samba said.
And so we thought a lot
about how to record sound.
So those are some
of the influences.
I think he evolved.
And he thought about
forming content too,
how to tell a particular story.
Some of his films were much more
colorful, in terms of palette,
than others.
And yeah, he had to be very
practical in the way he shot.
SAMBA GADJIGO: Just
one last thing,
of course, there are a lot
of interesting questions
that have been asked here,
what is Sembene all about?
I think just one short
story in one minute
to give who Sembene was and
what cinema meant it to him.
He invited me on the set
of his last film, which
is about female
genital mutilation.
He was 82 years old.
It was in June, 100
degrees in Burkina Faso.
We're filming over 11 weeks.
One day he collapsed.
I went and told him,
let's take a break.
I take you to a hotel, you rest.
And he said, I quote, "Samba,
I will have enough time
to rest after I die.
We have to make this film."
That's how meaningful
cinema was to Sembene.
"I will have enough time
to rest after I die.
Let's make this film."
And I think that's what it
gives you an idea of what value
he gave to cinema.
OUSMANE LOUM: Thank you.
Very, very powerful.
So as a close out, if
you have one or two
things you wanted
to leverage us today
or to show about Sembene--
SAMBA GADJIGO: Go ahead, Jason.
JASON SILVERMAN:
Yours was very good.
That's a pretty good
closing statement.
I would say we have the
tools and the stories
to make real progress
in rebuilding community
and creative problem solving.
I mean, they exist already.
It's just a matter of
deploying it at this point.
I think Sembene's films,
they're all getting restored.
We've helped get them
out of the archive
and the Criterion
Collection will be releasing
all of the films coming soon.
So they're going to be
available to the world again.
SAMBA GADJIGO: [INAUDIBLE]
JASON SILVERMAN: And he's
one of many filmmakers
who have told stories with
great commitment, stories
that can help us understand
the world in a deeper way.
And so I hope that we can find
ways to connect those stories
with the people who can be--
find the most meaning.
OUSMANE LOUM: And
Professor, do you
have any final notes for us?
SAMBA GADJIGO: Well,
I think he has--
we have said it all here.
I think I'm just
very, very happy.
I think Sembene,
wherever he is, if he
could see this, our
richness in our diversity,
that's what Sembene's dream was.
And I think that when I'm
doing this kind of work,
and I think of the world I
want to leave to my children
and to my children's children.
And I think Sembene,
despite the limits
of his means, the few films
that he made, are going to be,
how do you call it,
eternal, so to speak.
One last thing, though.
If you are interested in
digging more about Sembene,
Jason and I worked
for five years.
Now all his manuscripts are
housed at Indiana University
in Indiana.
And I'm sure if you go here to
the University of Washington,
there's are Sembene films.
So we're just--
this opportunity,
thanks to [INAUDIBLE]
and Ousmane,
thank you very much
for doing this.
It was just to plant a seed.
It's our collective
responsibility
to make sure that
the tree grows.
OUSMANE LOUM: A big thank you
to Jason and Professor Gadjigo.
If I can say again in Wolof.
SAMBA GADJIGO: Yes.
OUSMANE LOUM: [SPEAKING WOLOF]
SAMBA GADJIGO: [SPEAKING WOLOF]
OUSMANE LOUM: Thank you.
SAMBA GADJIGO: Even the
guy speaks Wolof now.
OUSMANE LOUM: Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
