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>>> Michael: It was March of
2006, and I created a show
called Building New York, New
York Life Stories. And my first
guest was an individual who grew
up in the Upper West Side of New
York City, a guy who went to the
supermarket business, an
individual who could have been
an engineer, a man who's run for
mayor, who happens to be the
owner of Red Apple Media, my
friend, John Catsimatidis.
Thanks for being here today. 
>>> John: Oh, Michael, I've
known you a long time. It's
always been a pleasure to talk
to you and discuss the world's
problems. 
>>> Michael: So, let's talk
about the history. You know,
many times, there are a lot of
biographies about you. So, talk
to me about your grandfathers
who came over in 1913. 
>>> John: My mother's family
originally is from
Constantinople, and they came
over, they escaped
Constantinople about 1911, and
they went down to the Island of
Nisyros, and then my, my, both
my grandfathers came over about
1913. 
>>> Michael: Okay. And you said
one of them died in the pandemic
of 1919. 
>>> John: He came to New York in
1913. His name was John
Catsimatidis and he died in
1918. 
>>> Michael: Okay. So, tell me
about your father, because your
father you said, he was involved
with the war in World War II,
before he came over. 
>>> John: My father stayed in
the old country, worked for the
Italian government, which holds
all those islands. He was an
Italian citizen because before
it was part of Italy. And he
worked, I think from 1930 to
about 1946, ‘47, when Italy lost
World War II and the Brits took
over that whole area and to
punish Italy for being on the
wrong side, they gave all those
islands back to Greece. 
>>> Michael: So how did your
father decide to finally come to
America in 1948? 
>>> John: Because his father had
come here and his two brothers
were in America since the 1920s,
1930s. 
>>> Michael: Now what were the
brothers doing in America? 
>>> John: They worked in the
restaurants, washing dishes,
waiting on people and living,
you know, learning to be
Americans. 
>>> Michael: Now you said to me
before that you have an aunt who
is in Brooklyn. 
>>> John: Well, my other
grandfather, my mother's father
left the old country in 1913,
and he came to America. In the
1920s, he went back to Greece
and asked his wife to come and
she refused to come to America.
Eventually, he married this
Jewish lady, a very nice Jewish
lady in Pelham Parkway. And he
had two daughters. And after his
death in 1977, we found them, we
met them and it was scary,
because one of them looked like
my mother. 
>>> Michael: Interesting story.
So, when your father comes over,
he gets a job in a restaurant.
Correct? 
>>> John: I think my father
started as a busboy, because
he didn't speak English
and, but he spoke fluent
Italian. So, he would work five
days a week, as a busboy in
Long Chips, famous restaurant,
And then on Saturdays and
Sundays, he would go to Astoria
or Long Island City and work in
the Italian restaurant as a
waiter because he spoke fluent
Italian. 
>>> Michael: Okay. Let's, let's,
let's get to your growing up.
So, you were born in 19, 1948.
You're going to be celebrating
your birthday in September 7th,
I believe, of this year. 
>>> John: Yes. 
>>> Michael: Okay. And tell me
about growing up on the Upper
West Side, how it was. 
>>> John: Well, I grew up by
City College, the west side
part of Harlem. I remember going
to Lewisohn Stadium. I remember
walking around City College
area, and it was a mixed
neighborhood. There was Greeks,
there was Irish, there was
Spanish, there were blacks. It
was a, a mixed working-class
neighborhood. And there was,
there was no problems. Nobody
was afraid to walk around.
Michael, you know, when the
problems came? The problems came
after 1970, when some of the
people started to come back from
Vietnam and they became drug
addicts. And that was the full
of Harlem. 
>>> Michael: Here's the
question. Have did you decide to
go to Brooklyn Tech? 
>>> John: I went to PS 192, the
public school across the street
from City College. And then my
father felt I needed a little
bit of religion. And he sent me
to parochial school for the
fifth grade, sixth grade,
seventh grade, eighth grade in
the Bronx. All my friends were
going to Brooklyn Tech. They
took the exam from the class. I
didn't want to be by myself. So,
I decided, let me take the test
and I want to go with my
friends. And that was the only
reason I went to Brooklyn Tech.
>>> Michael: Did you have any
desire to be involved with
engineering at this time or you
just wanted -- 
>>>John: I had zero desire. I
didn't even know what an
engineer did. 
>>> Michael: So, let's get,
let's talk about your first
involvement with politics. You,
you worked for this Congressman,
correct? 
>>> John: I was 14 years old and
the Congressman in the West side
was Congressman William Fitts
Ryan. And he was a great guy. I
remember he had an office on
96th street and I volunteered at
14 to work in his office. 
>>> Michael: Now what people
aren't aware of that he had
given you a letter to go to West
Point. 
>>> John: I went through the
examinations and, and I was an
only child. My mother cried, my
father yelled. They didn't want
their only child to be -- to go
away. 
>>> Michael: So, they sent their
only child to a school right
nearby NYU and in the Heights,
as we would call it at that
time. 
>>> John: NYU at the Heights.
And I used to come home every
night. 
>>> Michael: Okay. Now. There's
a story that you, the reason
that you got to work in the
supermarket was that you wanted
to take driver's ed, correct? 
>>> John: Well, I wanted to take
driver's ed, you know, my father
wasn't making too much money and
I didn't want to burden my
parents. So, I got a job.
With a guy on 137th street in
the little Superette and I ended
up working seven days a week. 
>>> Michael: So, here's the
question. How, what, what
happened? The uncle and the
cousin didn't get along and they
said, hey kid, you want to buy
into the business? 
>>> John: That's what happened?
His uncle and, and Tony,
from 137th street, didn't get
along. You know, when, when a
store does not make money,
nobody gets along. So, Tony, who
was like a big brother to me,
and I used to call him cousin
Tony, he says, John, I want you
to take that business, ‘cause I
can't take my uncle anymore, I
don't want to create further
problems. And he sold me 50% of
the store on 100th street and
Broadway for $10,000 and 10,
$1,000 notes over, over 10
months. I never made $1,000 a
month in my life to pay the
notes. I didn't even know if I
could pay, but I said yes, Tony,
yes Tony, and I did it. 
>>> Michael: So, that was the
first store. Let's talk about
when you started the first Red
Apple. 
>>> John: Well, after owning
that store for a year, year and
a half time and making it a
great success, Alan Goldberg, my
egg man. A little -- a Jewish
guy, about five foot six. He
used to sell me eggs. He says,
John, I have another store for
you. So, I went to, to look at
the other stores at 87th
street. And he says to me, the
other people left because they
wanted to get even with the
landlord because they were
paying $800 a month rent for the
whole store and the landlord
wanted $1,300. I said, okay,
I'll pay. And my attitude was, I
didn't care, I want to success.
I didn't care if I made $500
less. And that was my decision.
I opened up the first Red Apple
on 87th street between Broadway
and Amsterdam Avenue. 
>>> Michael: And how old were
you? 
>>> John: No. Broadway and West
End Avenue. 
>>> Michael: How old were you? 
>>> Tony: I was, I was a
junior in college. And that red,
that Red Apple caused me to be a
college dropout. 
>>> Michael: Your mother and
father were a little upset, but
you were making a good living. 
>>> John: My father and my
mother cried and said, we
didn't, we didn't send you to
college to become, it was a
Turkish word, “hamal,” that's
the guy with crates on his
shoulder. I said, you know,
meanwhile, I was making a
living. And, I was, and I even,
I even gave my father and mother
a better life, ‘cause I moved
them down from Harlem and I
moved them into an apartment on
87th street. 
>>> Michael: Let's talk about
the growth of the Red Apple,
because by the time you were 25,
I think you had 8 stores, 10
stores? 
>>> John: Something like that,
yes. 24. 
>>> Michael: So how do you grow
this, the chain for 24 stores? 
>>> John: I had a good Jewish
lawyer. And, Sam Stein, and he
also owned wholesale grocery
club, and the more business I
pick, the more business he did
in the wholesale grocery club.
So, every time I went to open up
a new store and I signed a new
lease, Sam Stein was the lawyer,
he would call up his controller
at Filigree Foods and say to
them, John's opening up another
store, give him all the credit
he needs. I had an open
checkbook from Sam Stein to open
up more stores, more stores and
more stores, and by the age
of 23, 24, I had about 10 stores
and I was making a million
dollars a year. 
>>> Michael: Now, how do you
decide to get into the real
estate business when you were
young? 
>>> John: Well, -- very easy.
If you find out in New York City
that, if you're a retailer and
you don't own your building and
the lease is up, guess what? You
don't have a store anymore. So,
when I realized that about 1976,
‘77, I started to buy real
estate where my stores were in.
And then when I, I borrowed the
money from the supermarket
business, put it into the real
estate business, and then at the
end of the year, I would borrow
money from Chemical Bank to pay
back the supermarket business to
check and balance the books.
So, I started buying real estate
about in 1977, when the world
was coming to an end in New York
City, it was the worst real
estate market. I didn't know any
better. I felt that if worse
comes to worse, if I couldn't
find a tenant for a building, I
would open up another store.
>>> Michael: Okay. How do you
change the next step in your
life? You got involved with the
airline business. 
>>> John: Oh, well -- so we're
now we're in the real estate
business and we're in a
supermarket business. I always
wanted to fly, so I wanted to
learn how to fly. And I said, I
set a goal for myself. I'm going
to learn how to fly before I'm
30 years old. So, at the age of
28, I started taking flying
lessons and I, you know,
everybody starts with a single
engine airplane. Then after a
year's time I had a twin engine
airplane. And then you say,
well, the real estate business
is doing well. The supermarket
business is doing well, maybe
I deserve a jet. I ended up
buying Roy Disney's jet. I
got a pilot. We started flying
around and I said
to my pilot, you know,
Jimmy, this is an
expensive hobby. So, I'm always
been creative all my life. I
said, maybe we should be in
business with this jet.
Atlantic City just opened up.
So, we went to Atlantic City and
we got, you know, they used to
take the, all the customers to
Atlantic City by limousine. So,
we convinced them, well, the
people that live too far away,
maybe you should take them down
there by jet. We've convinced a
couple of casinos. And all of a
sudden, our jet was being used
by the casinos to bring in their
customers. And over the next
five, 10 years, we started, we
ended up with 40 corporate jets
and I used to fly them all. And
I used to enjoy flying them all.
I didn't fly passengers, I only
enjoyed flying. And now is the
beginning. You know what that
was the beginning of, Michael? 
>>> Michael: NetJets. 
>>> John: It became NetJets,
eventually. And Warren Buffett
ended up buying. We sold it. I
sold it to Santulli, and then
they sold it to Warren Buffett.
>>> Michael: Let's talk about
some of the acquisitions,
involvements, like the Pantry
Pride, the Gristedes, okay? From
the South Bank Corp that you
built your grocery business. 
>>> John: I was always being
innovative. I always wanted -- I
grew the real estate business. I
kept buying real estate. I grew
the supermarket business. I kept
buying stores, buy more and more
and more. I was in a small jet
business. People came to me and
say we got an airline for sale.
I ended up buying an airline. We
bought Capital Airlines. The
headquarters of Capital Airlines
in Smyrna, Tennessee, which is a
suburb of Nashville. I lived in
Nashville for a year. I ran the
airline. It was a worldwide
airline. It flew the entire
world. It was scheduled. We even
flew Tel Aviv. We were -- -- had
the landing rights for Tel Aviv.
We were flying transatlantic. In
other words, New York,
California, Chicago, the
Caribbean was a big market, but
a funny thing happened on the
way the airline business,
people's express moved into our
markets and it hurt the company
a great deal. And we ended up
selling the company. 
>>> Michael: How did you buy
Southland? The stores from the
Southland Company, the
Charleston Company? 
>>> John: The airline made me a
worldwide executive. I learned
how to run a company worldwide.
We sold the airline. I had to
come back to New York. I was
depressed. So, I said, I've got
to do something. We had money.
We had credit lines. I remember
those days I had a credit line
at Chemical Bank, I had a credit
line at Bankers Trust. Well, I
ended up buying within a year's
time because I was depressed
because I wasn't doing enough.
We ended up buying Gristedes
from Southland. We ended up
buying Pantry Pride from Ron
Perelman and we gave Ron
Perelman money to help buy
Revlon. And we ended up by
accident buying the oil company
because there was a bankruptcy.
And, so we, we ended up with
Gristedes, Pantry Pride and, and
the oil company, all within, you
know, a year, year and a half
time. And that propelled me to
the next step in 1986, we ended
up doing a few billion dollars a
year in business. 
>>> Michael: Okay. So, let's
talk a little bit about the oil
company, which is still on
today. And the oil company gave
you real estate and quick
stores, correct? 
>>> John: It had convenience
stores, it had pipelines. It had
oil refinery. When I was looking
to buy the oil company, I
thought I was really buying
350-400 convenience stores. I
was the grocery man. I was, you
know, where the hell do I know
about oil refinery? Well, it
turned out that the oil refinery
itself was the place where the
company was making a lot of
money, especially if you add, we
added common sense management.
You know, I found that common
sense was all that -- you know,
that all that common. So, we
ended up running a 350-400
convenience stores. We ended up
running oil refinery. We ended
up running the pipeline. So, all
the sudden we're a big company.
And then there was a second
refinery down in Alabama. I've
never been down in Alabama. 40
years later, I still have not
been to Alabama. 
>>> Michael: But you still have
that. Now -- 
>>> John: We still have it, yes.
>>> Michael: Let's talk about
the short time that you got
involved with the jewelry
company when I met you many
years ago. 
>>> John: Well, me and you were
members of the Young Men's
Christian -- Young Men
-Education was it? YMPR? And
there was 200 members, 199 Jews
and one Greek, but I loved
everybody. I got along with
everybody. They sold me a
jewelry company. What the heck
do I know about a jewelry
company? You know what I knew? I
knew nothing! But again, it
comes back to common sense. We
ran it, we ended up selling. We
made all the high school rings.
We made all college rings. We
made the, the necklaces for
Cartier, or Tiffany. We ended
up selling all those divisions
and we took the cash. I just did
something stupid, I ended up
buying small supermarkets. 
>>> Michael: Right. So, you
bought Sloan's. Let's, let's
speak about Sloan's, let's talk
about what you did to D'Agostino
a couple years ago. 
>>> John: A couple of years ago,
you know, we ended up buying
almost every chain in New York,
and D'Agostino was in trouble. I
would walk into the stores, all
the shops were empty and I knew
why D'Agostino get out, get out
of business. So, we lend them a
lot of money to stay in
business. So, we did it as a
loan and then later on, we ended
up merging it into our company.
>>> Michael: How did you decide
to create Red Apple Media and
took over the wonderful WABC77?
>>> John: Well, after I ran for
mayor, I was very, very, very
popular, even though, I mean,
when I was very popular, people
love me because I wasn't just a
Republican, I wasn't just a
Democrat, I was just a common
sense New Yorker, and I decided
to go into radio business and I
enjoyed the radio business. I
worked for Salem, 970 AM. And
after four or five years, an
opportunity came. I grew up with
WABC. We all grew up, you know,
Cousin Brucie and Harry
Harrison. And Cumulus was
selling WABC, Tony Carbonetti,
who was Rudy Giuliani's chief of
staff, -- worked like, comes to
my offices, by the way they're
selling WABC. -- -- on scene, I
said, I'll buy it. And that's
how it happened. 
>>> Michael: Now, you recently
bought another station in
Hampton Bays, Long
Island. Right?
>>> John: We have a lousy -- you
know, WABC goes from Florida for
all the way to Maine, but for
some reason, the end of Long
Island, we had a lousy signal.
So, an opportunity came along,
WLIR, Long Island Radio came
along and you get a better
signal in Long Island. I said,
I'll buy it. 
>>> Michael: Okay, let's talk a
little bit about family. Margo.
How'd you meet Margo and when
you get married to Margo and you
have two wonderful children.
>>> John: Margo was my first
secretary. They don't have
secretaries anymore, right? They
have administrative assistants.
When I was 22, 23 years old in
my office, she came from
Indiana, Indianapolis and she
was a dancer. She sprained her
foot or broke her foot and she
needed a job. And she came to
work with me as an assistant.
And she worked for me for a long
time. And I ended up, 20 years
later, just about, I ended up
marrying her 20 years later. 
>>> Michael: Let's talk about
Andrea and John Jr. 
>>> John: Two great kids. My
daughter is 30 years old. She,
she loves politics. You know,
they both grew up with --
I used to run a lot
of operations for --
when he was president. And my
daughter went to NYU Stern, my
son went to NYU Stern. So even
though they, they grew up being
Democrats, they're ending up
being Republicans. Kids are
kids. After all, Hillary ran
college Republicans when she was
in Chicago. And my daughter is
now GOP chairperson for
Manhattan and vice chairman for
New York State. And my son
loves business and my son is
running the company. 
>>> Michael: Let's talk about,
you're coming out with a book on
your life, right? 
>>> John: Yes. -- It has to be
revised every month. 
>>> Michael: Okay. Well, why,
why did you decide to write the
book on your life? 
>>> John: I wanted something to
leave back for my kids, so they,
or my kids or my family to know
who am I, where, where have I
been? And, ‘cause everybody
knows where I'm going because I
talk about going forward. But
it's just a history of life. 
>>> Michael: So, I think, you
know, you and I, as we said, go
back over 30 years together,
it's been an interesting ride.
You've done a lot. You're going
to continue to do a lot. Okay?
And I'm so happy to celebrate my
anniversary of Building New
York, redoing the life story of
John Catsimatidis. Thank you. 
>>> John: Michael, thank you.
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