[MUSIC PLAYING]
Hello, humans.
I'm God.
Welcome to The God Show.
Please like, comment,
and subscribe.
Thanks.
So my guest today is
Andrew Seidel, a lawyer
and director of strategic
response for the Freedom
From Religion Foundation.
Andrew is here to talk
to me, the Lord thy God,
about his book,
The Founding Myth--
Why Christian Nationalism
is Un-American.
You're an atheist, huh?
I am, yeah.
And I've got to say, if I
was going to have a god,
probably wouldn't be you.
What!
[CHUCKLING] I really like Thor.
I think he's pretty cool.
Aww!
Yeah.
The Norse god's got
it goin' on, man.
[LAUGHS]
Hey!
I've got it goin' on, too, man.
Look at these guns.
[GRUNT]
I mean, yeah.
[GRUNTING]
You're looking good in
that T, I've got to admit.
I'm looking-- I'm
looking swell A-F, yo.
Thor?
Did you see Thor
in that last movie?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean--
OK, well fine, fine.
Fine.
You can choose whatever
god you want to,
but has Thor ever interviewed
you about your book?
It's true.
No, it's true.
Yeah, he has not.
That's right.
He has not.
That's right.
You know why?
He doesn't exist.
[LAUGHS]
He's just some Hollywood
actor with a cute face.
Anyway, so-- that's right.
I can say that he's
objectively-- you know,
Thor's good-looking.
I think that's objectively true.
Yeah.
It's the truth.
Yeah.
So anyway, now that you've
met me, the Lord thy God--
The Lord, a god, but yeah.
--and are talking to me, It's
clear that I exist, right?
I mean--
Yeah, I mean, yes.
--because you have evidence now?
Yeah, I mean, I'm not really
questioning my atheism.
It's more questioning my
sanity at this point, but--
[LAUGHING] Good.
Yes.
Yes, this is like an episode
of Black Mirror, isn't it?
Yeah, a little bit.
[LAUGHS]
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's good to acknowledge
the elephant in the room.
It is.
It was really weird seeing,
you know, "interview with God"
popping up on my
schedule this morning.
It was--
Yeah.
--an interesting moment.
Well, your whole life has
been building up to this.
Welcome.
Welcome to The God Show.
As you can see, in
heaven you become--
you become an
animated character.
That's lovely.
Yeah.
So you've got that--
You're not reanimated,
you're just animated.
Kinda.
[GROANING] [LAUGHS]
[INAUDIBLE] I'll let
you do the jokes.
I'm not [INAUDIBLE].
Is that a Re-Animator reference?
I mean, it was a zombie--
it was a zombie--
you know, Zombie Jesus,
you reanimate corpses--
Zombie Jesus, yeah.
--stuff like that.
You know.
Well, anyway.
Yeah, it's--
I'll leave the
funny stuff to you.
This is what you have to look
forward to if you make it in.
I think you're doing pretty
well, you know, for an atheist.
Well, thank you.
I don't discriminate, you know.
I just like people that are
cool, people that are good,
people that actually
care about doing good.
And, yeah, you seem
like a good dude.
Because--
I appreciate that.
Thanks, God.
--I checked out this
book, and yeah, I
have a lot of questions,
being that I'm God.
Bring 'em on.
But I appreciate where
you're going with it.
OK.
Let's do it.
I mean, bring it on.
Ask away.
I'm happy to educate God.
So yeah, you're
questioning your sanity.
It doesn't mean-- so, yeah.
You-- it's possible
you'll convert.
Anyway, so I'm
reading your bio here
on the Freedom From
Religion Foundation
website, or "ferf" for short.
Is that right?
Is that what you use?
Sure.
We call it F-F-R-F. There are
folks who call it the "ferf,"
but yeah, Freedom From
Religion Foundation.
As long as you get the
"from" right, we're happy.
Ah, right.
That's a key distinction there.
And it says here on your
bio that you studied
human rights and
international law
at the University of Amsterdam.
I did.
I did.
Rights.
That's-- that must
have been fun.
It was a lot of fun.
I know.
Yeah, beautiful place.
Very tolerant of everybody.
Rights.
Lovely place to
spend [INAUDIBLE]..
That must have had
quite an effect on you.
[LAUGHS] It did.
If I'm ever going to
leave the United States,
that's where I'm headed.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Maybe Canada.
So is that why you
became an atheist?
Was it the pot?
[LAUGHING] It was not.
Pot had nothing to do
with my lack of belief.
I mean, I never really
believed in you, to be honest.
[WHOOSHING CHORD]
Never really struck
me as a good reason.
[WHOOSHING GETS LOUDER]
I went to temple with
my Jewish friends.
I went to Catholic church
with my Catholic friends.
And it became pretty obvious
early on that rather than one
particular brand being
the correct brand,
they were all wrong.
So--
Oh, yeah, don't get me
started on religions.
[LAUGHING]
Stupid human-made religions.
Yeah.
They suck.
I'm cool.
OK.
All right.
But there's still--
for me, there's
still never any evidence, or
even good reason, you know?
Even if you just forget
about evidence for a minute
and look at logic and reason,
there's no real good reason
to believe in you at all.
That's just-- that
is just so hurtful.
I bet.
You know?
I start every day with, you
know, daily affirmations,
and this is just like,
[SIGH] this is really--
You do like a Stuart Smalley
thing, like in the mirror?
Yeah.
Yeah.
He's an inspiration
of mine, you know.
Every day.
Every day, I have to start
out, look in the mirror.
God, you're good enough, you're
smart enough, and doggone it,
people like you.
Well, doggone it, you exist.
I mean, I would think that
would be it for you, right?
[SIGH] Sometimes, you know,
I have to wonder if I exist,
because of all these--
I stopped wondering.
--haters and doubters.
But anyway, we've
got a long way to go.
So my self-esteem issues aside,
you know, it wasn't the pot,
but if anything, the existence
of marijuana and beer
and pancakes is
proof I exist, right?
I think Ben Franklin
said something like that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I was just going to say that.
You're a smart guy.
You're reading God's mind.
Because the USA, you know,
you say that the USA isn't
a Christian nation, right?
Yes, that is correct.
It's not.
But aha!
Aha.
It was US pres-- a US president,
Benjamin Franklin, who famously
said, beer is proof that
God loves us and wants
us to be happy.
Ah-ah-ah-- before
you go any further,
I know that's not
the exact quote.
OK.
The exact quote
is, [CLEARS THROAT]
behold the rain, which descends
from heaven upon our vineyards
and which incorporates
itself with the grapes
to be changed into
wine, a constant proof
that God loves us all and
loves to see us happy.
Damn right!
You know, and that
also applies to weed,
by the way, and
pancakes, both of which
Franklin enjoyed
in copious measure.
Bourbon whiskey also?
Sure.
OK.
You know.
In moderation.
I'm a fan-- more of a fan
of the Irish whiskey myself.
Yeah, you know, in
moderation, you've got to--
with the alcohol--
Yeah.
--chill with that shit.
Weed, no.
Weed's fine.
And so Ben Franklin was
president in your reality?
Uhhh-- I don't
really pay attention.
Was he not the president?
He's on your money, right?
Yeah.
Not president, though.
Oh.
I'm on your money too, right?
Yeah, you're a little
bit of a late addition,
but you were your--
well, I guess not even-- it's
not even your name, really.
Sorry.
It's just the word God pops
up on money, first in 1863--
That's my last name.
My name's Jehovah God.
Jehovah God.
Yeah, say, it's fun, because
you can say it quickly.
Jehovah God.
Yeah.
And I'm on the money.
To be honest, I don't
want to be on your money,
because it's filthy
and, you know--
True.
--I'm tired of America
putting everything on me.
It's like--
Well, and it doesn't--
--can you take a little
responsibility for yourselves?
And it doesn't
quite specify you.
I mean, it could be Thor God.
Again, I'm going back to--
or Frigga.
Or Odin.
This obsession with Thor.
What about Odin?
I know.
I know.
I know.
I mean, to be honest, I
think his mom was way cooler,
but that's neither
here nor there.
If you're going to worship,
I've got a kick-ass woman to
[INAUDIBLE]
I'm going to tell
Thor you said that.
Yeah, go ahead.
Go ahead.
Mhm, that you have an
interest in his mom.
[LAUGHING]
We'll see how he-- what
he thinks about it.
I'm sure he'll take
that really well.
[LAUGHS]
Yeah, you know Thor.
Thor doesn't fly off
the handle or anything.
No.
No.
Very nice.
[LAUGHS]
Yeah, but I mean, you
getting added to our money,
or you deities getting
added to our money
was a-- it's a perfect example
of Christian nationalism
when it was running
rampant in our country.
It was-- you know, this
was times of fear--
So that's--
[? --in nationalist right-- ?]
So that's right now, right?
Yeah.
I mean, this is a time in
the United States' history--
there have been several waves
of Christian nationalism
throughout our history,
and this one right
now, Trump has
ridden into the White
House, most powerful
office in the land,
and is legislating a
Christian nationalist agenda,
and doing his damnedest to ruin
our country in the name of you,
really.
Yeah.
I mean, he's exploiting me.
They're exploiting me.
Yeah.
This unholy alliance of
Christian nationalists and
disgusting a-holes.
Um, yeah.
[? He's ?] done it.
I've covered this quite
a bit on The God Show.
What are you going
to do, you know?
Fight it.
I could flood the planet again.
Would that work?
I mean, I'd prefer you not.
I think at the Freedom
From Religion Foundation
we're doing a
pretty damn good job
fighting Christian nationalism
on behalf of every American,
whether they want us to or not.
Well, you're doing
your damnedest.
Yeah, we are.
We're working to uphold the
Constitution and the separation
of state and church.
And we've got 30,000 members
at our back, helping us.
We could certainly
use some more,
if you want to help
out on that front.
That'd be lovely.
Uh, yeah, sure.
Better than genocide,
I should think.
Better than genocide.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, we'll talk.
We'll talk.
OK.
All right.
But yeah, so, yeah, your
book, The Founding Myth--
why Christian nationalists
are un-American.
I watched some of
your speeches, and I
read some of your book, and--
Appreciate that.
You know.
I read it kind of
like I read the Bible.
I skimmed it.
And you're a very smart dude--
Oh, well, thank you.
--OK?
Too smart.
Too smart.
Most humans are kind of like me.
Average intelligence.
And just, you know, we have
a hard time with big words.
Average intelligence.
And I think that's
part of the problem.
The Christian
nationalists really,
really hit the sweet spot
in talking to dum-dums.
Average intelligence.
And--
Well, and you--
--you atheists, you're
just like, you're
talking way over the head.
It's like, oh, yeah.
I can really follow that.
Well, and they're
saying things that they
want to hear, too, right?
I mean, people want to hear
that their country is built
on their religion, you know?
It's two of the most important
things in their life.
Uniting those things
makes them feel good.
They want to hear that myth.
They want that myth to be true.
I mean, unfortunately it's not.
I mean, that's a good point.
People believe what
they want to believe.
One of the reasons
I'm still here.
[LAUGHS]
So yeah.
Well, yeah, I was just
going to say, please
try to explain the
thesis of your book
like I'm five years old.
Sure.
And also, let's just say
that I have the attention
span of a goldfish.
So, a 60-second rundown.
Do we have a government of
the people, for the people,
and by the people?
Or do we have a government
of the Christians,
for the Christians,
and by the Christians?
That's the battle that we're in
right now in the United States.
Christian nationalism
is an existential threat
to our republic.
So that is why I wrote
The Founding Myth.
And you know--
Uhh-- existential.
It is a threat to
the very existence
of our republic, of our
country, of our democracy.
Right.
Right, bro.
But like, I mean,
you know, there's
this idea that's
been floating around
for a long time that
we-- that the United
States is a Christian nation.
And this book tears
that idea down,
but it does it by asking
a simpler question.
Did Judeo-Christian principles,
whatever they may be,
positively influence the
founding of the United States
of America?
And the answer is,
no, they didn't.
And we can actually
go a step further
and say, not only did they
not influence our founding,
but Judeo-Christian principles
are fundamentally opposed
to the principles on which
this nation was built.
There's a fundamental
disagreement and disconnect,
that they have
irreconcilable differences.
So much so that it
is fair to say--
albeit bluntly, I will admit--
Blunts.
Yes.
--that Christianity
is un-American.
Right.
So again, you did
your best, bro.
But, you know, I
was pretty confused.
Average intelligence.
Big words coming at
me a mile a minute.
OK.
I think you should, like,
take some more bong rips.
OK.
And then, like, you could
help connect the intelligence
of the average American.
[SNIFF] So, like,
maybe like, you know,
your mommy and daddy say
that you're a Christian.
And you're like, what?
And then you're like, uhh,
I have to be Christian?
And they're like, yeah.
You're a Christian nation--
kid.
And then, um, you're
like, wait a minute.
There's all this messed
up stuff in the Bible,
and I'm not sure if I
want to be Christian.
Maybe I want to be--
Yeah.
--you know, non-religious.
And they're like, [LAUGHS] no.
You are.
You are.
I mean, the culture's--
You have no choice.
There's some element
[? of that. ?]
Is that better?
It's a little bit.
Let's try it like this.
Here's the values
of Christianity,
and here's the values on which
the United States was founded.
There's no overlap.
Ahh.
The overlap that there is, is
like, really negative stuff,
like slavery and the
subjugation of women
and the demonization
of LGBTQ people.
So those Christian--
[BLEEP] Bible.
I didn't write that
shit, you know.
I know.
It's a terrible, terrible book.
So those principles did
influence our founding,
just not in positive ways.
And we've been trying to
escape that poisonous--
that means bad-- influence
for a very long time.
Yeah, I've got to
say, I like your book
a lot better than the Bible.
Oh, so glad to hear that, God.
There was, you know,
no "begatting" section.
Yeah.
I didn't do the whole, like,
blueprint for the temple.
I left that out.
All that.
Right.
Right.
The cubits and how
to build an ark.
Yeah.
And there was no-- there was
way less rape and murder, and--
I don't think there
was any, unless you
were referring to the Bible.
Correct.
Just to be clear.
[LAUGHS] All the rape,
murder, and genocide
is just from the Bible.
So, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Got to work on that.
And well, if you
want a new book,
if you would like a new
book, I would-- you know,
feel free to adopt
The Founding Myth--
Why Christian Nationalism is
Un-American as your new book.
I'd love for that to happen.
Or maybe you could
help me publish a book,
with your-- you know,
your connections.
Sure.
The Bible II--
it's just one page.
It says, don't be a dick.
I mean, that's a far better
10 Commandments than the one
you've got in the
book right now.
Hey.
So, yeah.
You know, a lot of those--
they were made up
by Moses, you know.
I told him a whole
bunch of stuff,
and then he just ran with
it, whatever he wanted.
You know how bureaucracy is.
Yeah, I do.
Yeah.
You know, it's like
a game of telephone.
Where is Moses right now?
Is he, uh-- or--
I don't know.
I haven't spoken to
him in a long time.
Oh, OK.
We're not exactly, you
know, on the best terms.
Yeah, because you got
pretty pissed at him
at the end of his portion
of the Bible there.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I mean, he probably bears
some ill will towards me.
You know, I tried to murder
him in the middle of the night,
I think, amongst other things.
You didn't let him
into the promised land
after all that work
he did for you.
[LAUGHING] Yeah, no milk and
honey for you, mother- [BLEEP]..
[LAUGHS]
And that's well
and good and all,
and I'm sure you have your
points, but, uhh, I recently--
I asked a few random
Americans if the USA
was a Christian nation.
And would you like to
hear what they said?
Sure.
Yeah.
I bet I could guess.
Without thinking, they were
instantly like, uhh, yeah.
[LAUGHS]
Of course it was.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because, you know--
It's a pretty common response.
It's just wrong.
Yeah, I mean-- so what do
you got to say to that, huh?
Oh, and I--
Hard to defeat logic
as sound as that.
It's wrong.
I mean, the thing that I've
been taking to doing lately
is asking people
to, OK, if you think
that we are a Christian
nation, can you
name one principle that
is unique and original
to Christianity on which
our nation was built?
And so far-- and I've debated
a couple scholars on this,
I've debated a couple
of prominent Christian
nationalists on it.
So far, nobody's
been able to do that.
And if you keep
holding their feet
to the fire, which I
know you in particular
are pretty good at, you--
Also Satan.
Oh, Satan too.
Yeah.
It's kind of his thing.
Oh, OK, yeah.
Yeah, I probably-- it's easy
to mix you two up, I guess.
That's his job.
I mean, don't get me wrong.
I enjoy it.
But who's got time for that?
But if you really
ask these people
and pin them down and
say, name one principle,
nobody can do it.
And they'll come back
with things like--
The Golden Rule.
Hello.
The Golden Rule, which
I have a whole chapter
on the Golden Rule in the book.
Oh, OK.
It's not unique or original
to Judeo-Christianity.
I mean, it predates
Christianity by something
like two millennia.
It's the idea of
reciprocal morality
is something that pretty much
every human society we know of
has come up with on their own.
This is a universal
human principle, not
a Christian principle.
And that's typically what you
find when you ask somebody
to name a principle.
They will mean these
universal human principles,
and then they'll claim
them for Christianity.
So it's really popular to
say that the idea of freedom
and the idea of equality
are Christian ideas,
and that they
influenced our founding.
First of all, you and I
both know that's not true.
And second of all, it
is arrogant, right?
It's claiming that this
universal basic human principle
is the result of one
religion, and that's
the exact kind of arrogance that
atheists like myself are often
accused of.
Yeah, it's really
just a propaganda war.
And it's one, I've got to be
honest, that you're losing.
Because I-- hey,
hey, I love you.
I love you, bro.
But, you know, I've got to--
I'm just trying to help.
You know?
Yeah.
They're dumbing it down, and
you're smartening it up all
over the place.
And, you know, words
like "principles"--
I know.
It's long.
People just think about getting
sent to the principal's office.
You know, you've got to
use a word like "rights."
It's your right.
Yeah.
They like that.
Yeah, they do like that.
They like to slap
"God-given" before it, too.
Ooh.
Yeah.
But anyway, I could
help you with your--
[CHUCKLE] your dumbing it down.
If there's one thing I am
good at, it's being stupid.
[LAUGHING] OK.
All right.
Yeah, I'm all for that.
Cool.
Yeah, that's always
been the point
that I've tried to make,
even back in, you know,
the [INAUDIBLE] atheism days.
They're like, oh, we
can't have memes anymore.
Memes are no good.
And I was like, are you
mother- [BLEEP] stupid
as hell, or what?
Do you think you're
going to win with nothing
but wordy articles?
Well, I mean, here's the thing.
And they did.
They did.
They were like, yes.
Yes.
No more memes.
Memes are the devil.
But--
I was like-- I was like, you're
just as bad as religions,
thinking that you can
control any of this.
I mean, I think
memes are wonderful,
and I think they help.
But we're also-- we are winning.
Like--
Oh, OK.
That's why-- yeah, did
you see Paula White?
Yeah.
I mean, so-- well,
let's back up.
Christian nationalism
definitely seized power in 2016.
The best predictor of
a Trump voter in 2016
was believing that
the United States was
founded as a Christian nation.
Average intelligence.
All right?
And so Christian nationalism
seized power in 2016.
But what you're
seeing right now,
they are raging against the
dying of their privilege.
They are not going to go
gently into the obsolescence
for which they are bound.
Now, I've always said--
I'm a lawyer.
I litigate state/church
cases, religious freedom cases
for a living.
And I've always
said that we are not
going to win this
fight in the courts.
That's becoming more and
more true by the day,
as Donald Trump and the rest
of these Christian nationalists
infect the federal judiciary
with Christian nationalist
judges.
But we were always going to win
the fight with demographics.
And we are winning
that fight right now.
I mean, people are fleeing
the church, and especially
in the United States.
I mean, Christianity is
in, quote, "steep decline,"
according to Pew.
So you know, we are winning.
It's just we haven't won yet.
Right.
Right.
I hear what you're saying.
I see the numbers slowly moving.
Slow-slow in America,
faster other places.
But I also sometimes wonder if
there's a bit of toxic optimism
there.
But anyway, you know.
I'm actually more optimistic
than I just let on, even.
I think it's actually going to
get better because the rates--
eventually what
we're going to see,
the rate of increase of
nones is going to actually,
I think, even go up more
steeply in the very near future.
You're going to hit it-- we're
going to hit [INAUDIBLE]----
There's going to
be a lot more nuns?
Yeah-- N-O-N-E-S, sorry.
Don't mean to [INAUDIBLE]--
Oh.
You see?
Not N-U-N-S.
Mm.
Mhm.
Mhm.
Yeah.
That was a new term for me.
I'm thinking of
The Sound of Music.
No, no, not those.
Yeah, the people
who check "none"
under a religious survey.
You know, Christian, Jew,
Muslim, none of the above.
That's this guy, right here.
And about 60 million
other Americans.
But there's going to be-- right
now, the default in the country
is Christian, right?
If you ask somebody that
question, they say, yeah, well,
I'm a Christian because--
they-- Christianity
and you have done
a great job of conflating
being a good person
with being a Christian.
And so people don't want to--
OK, don't put this on me, OK?
OK?
I don't get any of the money
from the church collection
plate.
I have nothing to do with them.
They've done this great job
of conflating being Christian
with being a good person.
And the newer-- or the
younger demographics
are not buying into that.
So we're going to hit this
tipping point where the default
position is no longer going
to be, I'm a Christian.
It's going to be, I'm nothing.
And when that
happens, you're going
to see the rate of nones--
N-O-N-E-S-- really shoot up in
this country and Christianity
decline even further.
And I think that's
coming sometime
in the next 10 to 20 years.
So right now, those
with non-religion
are the biggest
subset of Americans,
where there are more
of us than there
are Catholics or evangelicals.
And do the nones vote like
the Christian nationalists do?
Not at the same
level, but that is--
there is a lot of good
evidence that that's happening.
I wrote a piece for Rewire
News after the 2018 elections,
pointing out some of
the factors that really
show how nones are starting to
coalesce into a powerful voting
bloc.
And I think we're going to
see that trend continue.
So, point being, a lot of
reason to be optimistic,
even outside of all the awesome
arguments that are in this book
that you've declared
is your new book.
Hey, I like it.
Again, I just
think, dumb it down.
OK.
All right.
Take your cynical aperture
and kick that up from, like,
20% to 100%.
And then--
All right.
Well, let me try this one.
--take your brain and
just get really dumb.
Just go-- just fart in bathtubs.
Just embrace your stupid side.
OK.
[INAUDIBLE]
Does "ferf" invest-- oh, sorry.
Go ahead.
You were going to say something.
Well, I was going to say,
let me try a dumber argument,
or one that I think is simpler.
Maybe you can tell me if--
OK, bro.
All right.
All right.
So we're trying to show
that Christian values are
fundamentally-- are completely
opposed to American values.
So let's look at
your commandments.
10 Commandments.
Right.
They begin, "I am
the Lord thy God.
You shall have no
other gods before me."
Right.
And that is fundamentally
un-American.
You can have as many gods
as you want in this country.
You can have no god.
You can worship them and
believe in them however you
want, or none of them at all.
That is guaranteed in
our First Amendment.
So your first law is thoroughly
opposed to our First Amendment.
I get it.
What do you think of that?
I-- yeah.
I never said I wanted to be
involved in the stupid state.
That's all human
stuff, you know.
I understand.
I'm not cool enough
for you, Andrew.
You prefer Thor.
OK?
You've made that
abundantly clear.
I mean, to be fair--
Even though Thor never
has you on his show
or promoted your book or said
it was better than the Bible.
To be fair, I haven't really--
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
I mean, he could be a
genocidal [BLEEP] too.
I don't know.
He is.
He is.
Let's just go with that.
OK.
All right.
You know.
Don't believe what
you see in the movies.
Geez.
Anyway.
OK.
Yeah, I know it's
challenging for you,
but I'm cooler than Thor.
But anyway--
Do you have a hammer?
Sure, I have a hammer.
I have a broadsword.
I have everything.
I--
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
I have a T-rex that I
ride in outer space.
I have a spaceship if I want.
I've got everything.
The T-rex is pretty cool.
I've got to-- all right.
That's--
Yeah.
Maybe you're starting
to win me over.
Yeah.
Thor is a one-trick pony.
So yeah.
Yeah.
I get it.
That makes sense.
Freedom of religion and stuff.
[SNIFF] Right.
Right.
Freedom from
religion, if you want.
You could be a nun.
No, that's totally--
it would-- yeah, right.
So tell me--
[CHUCKLE] at the
beginning of your book,
you describe this judge, right?
And this is a judge--
I love this story.
He wanted to put
the 10 Commandments
in front of his courthouse.
Take it away, Andrew.
Oh, man.
All right.
Moving back up here.
It's a great [INAUDIBLE].
So this is a judge-- and yeah, I
open the book with this story--
and he wanted to put up--
Foundations of American
Government, I think
was the name of the display
that he wanted to put up.
So he's going to put
the 10 Commandments up,
and he's going to put up
this picture of Washington
kneeling in the snow at
Valley Forge, praying.
You know, this
iconic American image
of something that absolutely
never happened, that we know
didn't happen.
We know it was made up by
a preacher who also made up
a story about Washington
and the cherry tree.
Anyway, so he wants to put up
all this very religious stuff,
including the 10 Commandments.
And he proposed this plaque
for the 10 Commandments,
and he left--
there only nine
of them on there.
He left out the
adultery commandment.
I love that!
He wanted the 10
Commandments to be
put in his courthouse, folks,
and he left one of them out.
The one about adultery.
Hmm.
Hmm.
I wonder why.
Why did he do that, Andrew?
Go on.
Well, he did get sued for
some serious sexual harassment
afterwards.
He also apparently was taking
money from the 10 Commandments
display fund that
he had been raising,
or, you know, around
the community.
He was pilfering
funds from that.
So he's in jail
right now, or he was
at the time I wrote the book.
And there's footnotes
where people
can go see the exact charges
and all that fun stuff.
But yeah, Judge James
Taylor did not--
did not abide by those--
Oh, Sweet Baby James, huh?
Yeah.
Nice.
Nice.
He's seen fire.
He's seen rain.
He's seen a [? directly ?]
was a total douche.
Are you the one that
put him in prison?
No.
No, I did not.
I'm not a prosecutor,
so I don't do that.
Oh, yeah.
Right.
I totally knew that.
He also mislabeled
the 10 Commandment--
the 10th Commandment
he labeled as the 11th.
X-I-- or the ninth commandment.
11.
Yeah.
Yeah.
He left one out, then they
had-- he had an 11 in there.
Yeah.
Not the sharpest
knife in the drawer.
No.
And you know, it kind of goes to
what you've been talking about,
really, which is this idea that
Christian nationalism formed
the basis of our country is--
it's not informed by
reality or history or facts.
It's just this feeling.
People want it to be
true, and they're just
promoting it without regard
for facts or history or truth.
And that's one of
the things that I'm
trying to take down in my book.
But to me, the entire political
and ideological reality
of Christian nationalism
is weak and vulnerable
because it's based on all
these historical distortions
and lies.
Right now, the goal is to--
of The Founding Myth,
anyway, is to utterly destroy
Christian nationalism.
To destroy that identity and
the ideas that underlie it.
Yeah.
They're televangelists.
I just recently did an
episode, two-part episode
about Paula White.
She's batshit crazy.
And, you know, the prosperity
gospel and all of that.
And yeah.
Bunch of charlatans.
They always want private jets.
What are they doing up there?
I mean, you would
know better than us.
Yeah, it's everything
you can imagine.
Ugh.
Yeah.
Yeah, I assume it's things that
if they came to light in public
would disgrace them.
But.
Yeah.
And yeah, so she's close to that
shonky demon in the White House
now.
How come-- I've got a
question for you, Andrew.
Shoot.
How come church and
state always be [BLEEP]??
[LAUGHS]
Like, seriously.
It's a good question.
I mean, the church
and state are meant
to be separate under the
American constitutional system.
It is probably the
one unique thing
that the American
founders contributed
to political
science, was the wall
of separation between
state and church.
The idea had been there,
and it was basically
formulated in the Enlightenment,
but it was first implemented
in the American experiment.
So the wall of separation
between state and church
is an American original.
It's an American
invention, and I
think it's something that
every American ought to be
really proud of and defending.
And I know a lot
of your followers
really like to use the
government to promote
their personal religion.
They like to use
public power to promote
their personal religion.
And that's exactly
what is not allowed.
Again, I think that
you're mistaken
on who my followers are.
Online-- I've been online
since about 2011, Andrew,
and I've got to tell you, these
televangelists and charlatans
hate my ass.
The people that follow me--
I'm followed by
atheists and agnostics,
and a lot of really nice,
smart, religious people as well.
Yeah.
I follow you.
It's a wide spectrum of people.
And yeah, it's really
funny to see how much I'm
hated by the fundamentalists.
I'm actually blocked
by Jerry Falwell--
Me too.
--amongst other people.
Oh, hey.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Truth.
Hey.
Block brothers.
I mean, well, I think
everybody who follows you
and who is watching
this, regardless
of whether they believe
in you or some other god
or no god, one thing that
they need to understand
and that they can all-- we
should all be able to agree on,
is that there is no such
thing as freedom of religion
without a government that
is free from religion.
A secular government
is the only real way
to guarantee that
religious liberty exists
throughout [INAUDIBLE].
Yeah.
Even the phrase
"freedom of religion"
is sort of engineered in their
favor, because you're like,
oh, it has to be of religion.
There has to be a
religion in there.
That doesn't count
people with no religion.
Because then it's a serious
argument [INAUDIBLE]..
Because we're all dumbasses.
We don't understand things.
Yeah, I mean, that's a serious
argument that has been made.
But to me, the
central point, talking
about the wall of
separation, is that if you
want genuine religious
liberty, the government
has to be secular.
Because if the government can
weigh in on religion with all
the power that we the people
have given it-- all the people,
not just the Christians--
then it's automatically
coercive when
it recommends to you to
pray on a certain day,
or to go to church.
Or it tells you that
your taxpayer dollars
are going to fund the
repair of a church,
or going to fund Christian
education at a private school
through something like vouchers.
I mean, those are
fundamentally un-American,
and they are a violation
of every American's
religious liberty.
Because church and
state be [BLEEP],, yo.
Like, seriously.
They have this
love/hate relationship,
but they love to get it on.
Like, you think they're
finally separated.
And, you know, you told
state to leave church,
and state promised they would.
And then, bang, like
five seconds later,
you catch them just
going at it in public.
Just openly 69ing each
other in full public view.
And it's just like, ugh, gross.
Get a room, at least.
Church is just, like,
so horny for state.
And always trying to give
state the reach-around.
And that's what we at
the Freedom From Religion
Foundation are
trying to prevent.
Our whole-- we have
two goals and work
to educate the
public about what it
is to be a non-believer
in the United States,
and to separate, to keep
state and church separate.
I mean, we have 10
attorneys here on staff.
We get between 4,000 and
5,000 state/church complaints
every single year.
We've got between
10 and 20 lawsuits
going at any given time.
We win-- well, the last time
I looked, we were at 14 and 2,
but that number shifted since
the Trump judges have taken
on--
Oh, 14 and 2.
It sounds like a
great football season.
Yeah, I mean, that was
from the beginning of 2014.
That was the last time--
I did the stats about was
six or eight months old,
so the numbers have
shifted some for sure.
So we're probably like--
our win rate's probably
closer to 750 or 66--
6 now.
Pretty good.
So, yeah, I mean, it's still
great over the last few years,
but I mean, that's
what we do at FFRF.
We work to educate the public.
Educate and separate.
Those are our two main goals.
And we really need all the
help we can get right now.
So as God, I'm just
going to continue
to play devil's advocate
here for a second.
Go for it.
Hold on, let me just--
I bet--
--get really stupid.
I bet you, as God,
still do not have
an argument I have not heard.
Yeah.
Well, OK.
So like, wasn't democracy
invented by Jesus
in the New Testament?
Nope.
Like, you know, along with
socialism and universal health
care, because Jesus is
like a huge socialist?
Yeah, I mean, there's
not a single whiff
of representative government
anywhere in the Bible.
And in fact, the
Bible says that all
of the governments that
have been instituted
derived their power from God.
Well, from you, I guess.
And that right there is a
fundamentally un-American idea.
It's rebutted in the
Declaration of Independence,
which says that power is
situated in the people.
No chosen ones.
No, in the people.
And when the ruler
becomes tyrannical,
we have a right to rebel
against that ruler.
And it's also same thing,
right, in the first three
words of the Constitution,
"we the people."
Now, admittedly,
the founders had
a bad job of-- did
a bad job of who
the people were at the time.
They were a little
more exclusive
than we would have
liked, but that
is attributable to the
Christian influence, sadly.
Point being that no, democracy
is not from the Bible
or from Christianity.
And it is fundamentally
opposed to democracy, really.
Yeah.
Well, I have good
news for you, Andrew.
OK.
I took a copy of your
book over to some
of the founding fathers.
Oh, yeah, great.
Yeah.
And yeah, they loved it.
They agree with you 100%.
You have their full endorsement.
They want to take
bong rips with you.
All right, I'm going
to put that on the--
the next edition is
going to be a blurb.
That's going to be a blurb.
Yeah.
Founding fathers--
George Washington wants to
take bong rips with Andrew,
because this book be dope, yo.
Am I dumbing it down yet?
[LAUGHS]
Though-- [CLEARS THROAT]
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Right.
Christian nationalists.
Unholy alliance.
Shonky demon.
How come atheists and satirists
never form a holy alliance?
Why are these
Christian nationalists
so organized and
fervent for nonsense
while smart people are so
disunited and disbanded?
Isn't it time you all team up?
You know, like the
atheist Avengers?
I mean, that's a really
interesting point.
I think part of it
is that we-- our side
tends to be unwilling to use
fearmongering to get our way.
You know, if you can
scare your followers
with the threat of
eternal damnation
and torture and torment into
donating 10% of their income,
it's pretty easy to
fund a massive alliance.
We don't have that on our side.
And even if we had
it, I mean, I'd
be very unwilling to use
that kind of fearmongering
to fund the work that we do.
It's the Dunning-Kruger
effect, isn't it?
It is.
It really is.
The idiots just fork
over their money.
They're like, here you go.
A fool and his money
are easily parted.
And a smart person just, you
know, is just like, [BLEEP]
the world.
I'm going to sit on this
cash, be a little hedonist.
Hey, I get it.
But you see the results.
They have a lot of money.
They have a ton of money.
I mean, we are outgunned for
sure, when it comes to funds.
But again, we're still winning.
And the reason for
that is we are right.
I mean, facts seem to matter
less and less right now,
but we are on the side
of objective facts.
We've got the law on our side.
We've got the Constitution
on our side, which is why
we are winning in these fights.
And again, even all
that stuff isn't
as important as winning
with demographics,
which is happening as well.
That's winning the courts
of public opinion, correct?
There you go.
Absolutely.
Right.
Hearts and minds.
So, yeah.
You know, can the "ferf"
give me some money?
Because, you know, I know
that might sound a bit ironic.
But, you know, I've never
gotten one dime from that church
collection plate, like I said.
Uh-huh.
So I thought I'd
try the atheists.
And isn't it messed up
how charlatan con artists
like Paula White and Joel Osteen
fly around in private jets
and live in
billion-dollar mansions,
and meanwhile cool
gods like me have
to beg for patrons on Patreon?
What the fuck, man?
It is messed up.
And you know what's
even more messed up?
I can't even pay
to edit this video.
[BEEP]
Well, hopefully people will
support your work on Patreon.
I would think that'd
be worth their time.
They do.
But I need, like,
so many more people
to have hour-long videos.
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
Hour-long videos
with cool lawyers
take a lot of
video editing cost.
A lot.
So you're not at the
private jet level yet?
Not even close.
Bro, I can't even
pay the video editor.
[BEEP]
And then there's nothing
left over for rent or weed.
So, yeah.
I don't know, man, it
seems like the perks of God
aren't that perky.
Yeah.
Yeah, well, I'm glad
you're getting it.
You know, Thor--
Thor gets million-dollar
contracts to be in friggin'
Marvel movies.
And what do I get?
I get blamed for everything.
And I'm broke.
God is broke.
And it's not like
George Carlin said,
because I'm just bad with money.
It's that, well, I--
yeah, I mean, I'm
bad at getting money,
so I should really
sue the church.
This is bullshit.
Which brings me
to my next point.
Would you consider
being my lawyer?
Yeah, sure.
Who do you want to sue?
Like, everybody.
So like all the
Christian nationalists
who are going around
giving you a bad name?
All the Christian
nationalists, you know,
yeah, the number of
people just using me.
Oh, like they say Trump
is the chosen one.
Trump was chosen by God.
That is derogatory
and slander, OK?
I mean, it puts you
in a bad light, too--
How-- how dare you!
I marvel at the nerve
of these people.
Uh, yeah, you know, so I've been
online since 2011, like I said,
and for some reason these
wacky fundamentalists all
hate my guts.
It could be that I
mock and ridicule them.
Ahem.
Hm.
It could be that I speak
the truth to charlatans.
But--
They don't like that.
--I think they might
be out to get me.
Like I said, I'm blocked
by Jerry Falwell.
I'm blocked by Charlie Kirk.
There's a million others I
can't remember right now.
Those are the ones
at the top my head.
But I've been blocked
everywhere, man.
Me-dammit!
Those charlatans.
They really can't--
They can't handle
the truth, dammit.
They're really can't.
They are not good
with criticism at all.
Yeah.
You know, I'm not going to lie.
I struggle with it myself.
You know, I like to be
praised, what can I say?
I mean, it's in the 10
Commandments, you know?
You made it pretty clear.
All right.
Do you have any closing
thoughts there, Andrew?
Yeah, I mean, I think
that people haven't read
a book like The Founding Myth.
It's different.
Previous books have kind of--
they've sort of offered
this gentle correction
to the Christian nationalists.
They'll say, well, here's what
the founders actually said,
and here's what history
actually tells us,
and here's what
they actually meant.
And then they kind
of leave it at that.
But correction is not enough.
I mean, facts are not
enough, otherwise we
wouldn't have President Trump.
So pointing out errors
is insufficient.
So this book does that, but
then it takes the next step.
It goes on the offensive.
Because patriotism
has no religion.
So this book is an assault
on the Christian nationalist
identity.
Not only are Christian
nationalists wrong,
their beliefs and
identity run counter
to the very ideals on which
this nation was founded.
They are un-American.
Boom!
All right.
Well, this is fascinating
stuff, just fascinating.
You heard what the
atheist said, you sinners.
Get out there and buy his
book, The Founding Myth.
It's the perfect gift for that
religious person in your life
that honestly thinks that the
USA is a Christian nation.
They will definitely
learn something.
All right.
Well, thanks for coming
on the show, Andrew.
I would love to have
you back some times if--
I'd be--
--you know, I have questions
about atheism or whatever.
I'd be happy to come back on.
We can talk about all
the fun cases that
are working their way
through the courts
that the Supreme Court
is trying to ruin.
You know, I'd be happy to
come on and chat about this.
And I'll say this and--
well, I guess this
will be the first time.
If I come back on
the show, maybe I'll
say it a second time,
but thank you, God.
Aay.
Aaaaay.
Thanks for coming on, Andrew.
Well, thank you
for having me on.
I love you, atheist.
This was fun.
Appreciate it.
OK.
Bye-bye.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
[MUSIC - "BATTLE HYMN OF THE
 REPUBLIC"]
(SINGING) Glory, hallelujah.
His truth is marching on.
Glory, glory, hallelujah.
