JENNIFER BYRNE: At 17, Malala Yousafzai, the
Pakistani schoolgirl even a bullet could not
silence, was last week named the youngest-ever
winner of the Nobel Peace Prize. Two years
ago, Malala was shot in the head by the Taliban
in retribution for her fearless six-year campaign
for girls' education. She almost died, but
was airlifted to safety in England, and, appropriately,
she was in a chemistry lesson in her new school
when the Nobel announcement was made. Already,
Malala is considered a future world leader
and shares her prize with an Indian campaigner
for children's rights. I met up with Malala
just a few weeks ago, in New York, where we
discussed, among other things, the brutal
set of circumstances that brought her here.
Malala Yousafzai was born to a Pashtun family
in Pakistan's beautiful Swat Valley. She was
five when the planes hit the Twin Towers.
At home, her father opened his first school
for girls. By the time she became the school's
star student, the Taliban had taken control
of Swat. People were routinely beaten, their
beheaded bodies left in the square. Malala
was 11 when the Taliban started blowing up
girls' schools, claiming they went against
Islamic teachings. Her father, Ziauddin, encouraged
his daughter to protest. She was able and
willing, and when the BBC asked him to find
a student to write about life under the Taliban,
Malala stepped in, writing under a pseudonym.
The blog made her known in the West, and a
celebrity in Pakistan, winning numerous awards.
This provoked a direct threat from the Taliban
- 'Stop or we will stop you.' A year later,
aged 14, a masked gunman stopped Malala's
school bus, asked for her by name, then shot
her. She was treated first in Pakistan, then
airlifted to Birmingham for life-saving specialist
care. On her 16th birthday, she was invited
to speak before the United Nations.
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: One child, one teacher,
one book and one pen can change the world.
Education is the only solution. Education
first. Thank you.
JENNIFER BYRNE: And here she is now. Malala,
thank you for joining us here in New York.
That was one sensational speech, especially
the last line - like a clarion call. Can you
describe how it felt standing there delivering.
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: I wrote the speech two weeks
before the day - 12th of July - and I was
not sure what should I say and how would it
feel like, but when I went to the podium,
when I went to the stage and I could see 500
young people, both girls and boys from different
countries, and I really felt that, 'On this
day I'm not only speaking to 500 people but
really I'm speaking to those millions of people
who are waiting to hear my voice.'
JENNIFER BYRNE: But, Malala, that makes it
worse if you think of millions of people.
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: Well, ah, when I speak,
I speak from the core of my heart and I want
to tell the truth, and I want everyone to
listen to what I stand for and to tell them
that education is very important. So, it would
be very nice for me to realise it - not only
500 people are going to listen about the importance
of education, but rather millions. I was very
happy when I went to the stage.
JENNIFER BYRNE: If that doesn't make you nervous,
what does?
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: Well, I sometimes get nervous
when it comes to my exams, and sometimes when
the teacher asks questions I really get nervous.
But in my exam I get nervous, and it was my
maths exam, non-calculator one, and I got
so nervous that even know I knew how to solve
the questions I just couldn't. My hands were
shaking, I couldn't do that. So, in my exams,
in my classroom I do get nervous.
JENNIFER BYRNE: You were just ten, really,
ten or 11, when you started this campaign
for education for girls. Was it, in the beginning,
a personal matter? I mean, you actually made
a speech where you said 'What right do the
Taliban have to take away my chance of an
education?' Was it personal for you, then
- you want your chance, your go, or was it
always that you had a bigger story in mind?
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: So, at that time in Swat
there was terrorism, and I could not go to
school, my friends could not go to school
and more than 400 schools were destroyed at
that time, and I wanted to speak for myself
and for my friends, for the thousands of girls
in Swat Valley who were deprived of education,
who could not go to school anymore. And I
wanted to see their future bright and my own
future bright as well because sometimes you
speak for those who are suffering, but you
yourself are not suffering from their problem.
But in this case, in my case, I, myself, was
suffering from it, so that's why - it was
a voice for girls, and I was also one of those
girls.
JENNIFER BYRNE: Mmm. So, it was partly personal
and partly because...
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: It was for girls, yes.
JENNIFER BYRNE: It was for all girls.
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: It was for all girls.
JENNIFER BYRNE: That is enormously... unusual
for you to be able to discuss the consequences
of terrorism, for instance when you're ten
or 11. Was it the way you were brought up?
Why were you so conscious of this so early?
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: The first thing was that
I was a girl, and it was the women and the
girls who were badly suffering from terrorism.
So, girls were not allowed to go to market,
they were not allowed to go to schools, and
there was no freedom for women at all - they
were limited to the four boundaries of their
houses and their only job was to cook, to
clean the house, to serve their husbands,
and if I could not go to school then my future
was to be - get married, get married at the
age of 13 or 14 and have children, and then
become a grandmother and that's all. I would
not have realised what talents and what skills
I have. And to show that, yes, I also have
an identity, and I'm also a human being and
I'm a woman. So, without education it's quite
difficult for girls there.
JENNIFER BYRNE: Let me ask you a question,
though, that life you describe, getting married
at 13 or 14, living within the four walls,
that is the life your mother lived, that is
the life of the Pashtun, not just of the Taliban.
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: Well, the one thing should
be made clear - that in Pashtun society there
are some people who are still living in the
old era, but it does not mean that all Pashtun
think like that. Because I'm also Pashtun
and I'm talking about education. My father's
a Pashtun and he speaks for women's independence
and their freedom, so that's why. My mother
could not go to school because when she was
very young she was going to school, but then
she realised that her other friends were playing
games and they were enjoying it, and why is
she just going to school? And no-one told
her that education is very important for her.
JENNIFER BYRNE: So, you had a choice. You
could live a different way to your mother.
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: Yes - because I had an educated
father, and my father was running a school
and that school was for both girls and boys,
and the school is still there. And it had
1,100 students, and my brothers were going
to school, so my father wanted to treat me
as his sons. And I was his daughter, so he
was treating both his sons and daughters equally,
and he usually says 'Don't ask me what I did
for my daughter, ask me what I didn't do - I
did not clip her wings'. So, he did not clip
my wings, he let me fly.
JENNIFER BYRNE: How unusual is that in the
society you grew up in - that you didn't have
your wings clipped?
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: He made me realise that,
yes, I am a human being and I have equal rights,
as my brothers have, as men have. But other
than that, he also encouraged me - encouraged
me when I spoke, encouraged me when I did
something good in my school. So, I think encouragement
is also very important in that it makes you
believe in yourself.
JENNIFER BYRNE: OK. And your brothers? Are
they just as pesky now you're famous, as they
always were?
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: Well, they're as cheeky
as they were. They sometimes don't focus on
their homework, they don't really work hard,
so I'm encouraging them as well - that they
should also get their education and try their
best.
JENNIFER BYRNE: So, you're encouraging them.
Do you think encouraging is the word that
they would also use for what you do to them?
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: Well, they think that I'm
not nice to them, they think that I'm a bit
unfair and sometimes they call me cruel. They
say that, 'People say that you are the bravest
girl in the world, I say you are the cruellest
girl in the world.' So, they think a bit different.
JENNIFER BYRNE: You're their older sister.
Of course!
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: But they're brothers. They're
brothers like normal brothers.
JENNIFER BYRNE: Let's go back to 2007, when
you're living in Mingora - the village in
the Swat Valley, your homeland.
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: Yes.
JENNIFER BYRNE: It's a beautiful place, you
say.
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: A very beautiful place.
It's like... We call it the Switzerland of
the East, but I think it's more beautiful
than Switzerland. Its weather is OK. Its weather
is not that much cold, and there is this special
smell, this special kind of feeling that you
would never find anywhere else, and it is
the feeling of home. There is a river, and
you can sit on the side, you can do fishing
and eat fish, et cetera. There are so many
beautiful places there, but then, in 2007,
as you know, the Taliban came and they just
changed the whole Swat Valley. Swat Valley
was no more known for tourism but rather for
terrorism.
JENNIFER BYRNE: When the Taliban came and
the horror broke out, what was it like? You
were, what, ten? 11?
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: At that time I was ten.
JENNIFER BYRNE: And there were bodies in the
square every day, weren't there? Dead bodies.
How did you deal with that?
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: Every night we would hear
the bomb blasts, we would hear the firing
- after every five or ten minutes you would
hear firing. And it's quite difficult because
you cannot even sleep, and you think that...
you hope that you would not be the next person
who would be slaughtered in the Square of
Mingora, you hope that you would not be the
next person who would be killed.
JENNIFER BYRNE: Why were they being slaughtered?
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: Well, the reasons were many.
Sometimes they would think that this woman
is a singer, and singing is against Islam
so they would kill that woman. They will say,
'This person is a hairdresser, and haircutting
is not allowed or shaving beards is not allowed
so they would kill that person. They were
against police, they were against army and
they call the army, like, their enemies and
they so call non-Muslims. They were against
girls' education. They were blasting schools
because they thought that going to school
was a sin. A girl who gets education, she
is committing a crime, that is a sinful thing.
JENNIFER BYRNE: Was that when you realised
how important education was to you? It was
when it was threatened that you thought...?
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: They, all the time, on the
radio would say that 'This girl from that
area has now stopped going to school and this
girl is going to go to paradise. But the other
girls who are still in school are preparing
themselves for hell.' And I realised that
this is the time to speak because I do not
want to live in this situation forever, and
I want to speak out for my rights and for
the rights of every girl in Swat Valley, and
to tell the responsible people that they should
do something as well. But in some circumstances,
people always wait for others and it's like
we think it's the politicians' job, it's the
leaders' job to come and do something for
us, but if you don't raise your voice then
they're not going to listen to you, then they're
not going to hear your voice. So, you should
raise your voice - it's my message to everyone
- people who are suffering through conflicts
and through war, they should speak out for
themselves, they should not wait for someone
else.
JENNIFER BYRNE: I think that's what people
didn't realise first all when you were shot.
- how long the campaign had happened. It seemed
like all of a sudden, you know, you'd been
shot because you were standing up. In fact,
you'd been doing it for five years. So, to
condense those years, the Taliban were driven
out, but only after you'd had to go and live
in a displacement camp. And you were writing
the blog for the BBC, but then you became...
you were identified. Your name became known.
So, you weren't the anonymous BBC blogger
anymore. When did you get your threat?
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: Um, it was January 2012
that I got the threats, and I saw it on the
internet. But I was OK, I wanted to continue
my campaign and continue my studies as I was
also going to school. But...
JENNIFER BYRNE: But you didn't believe it
was a real threat?
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: I just thought it won't
happen.
JENNIFER BYRNE: The day of the shooting, you've
always said you have no memory of at all,
that you woke up and you were in an English
hospital. What is the last thing you remember
that day?
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: It was my Pakistan Studies
exam, and I was really happy because I did
well in that exam. And we were going back
home, and I sat in the school bus with my
friend, Moniba - she's my best friend - and
we were in the car talking, singing, and enjoying.
And I was just three minutes away from my
house. And then this one person came to the
back and he said 'Who is Malala?' And all
the girls got scared - 'What is this boy doing
here?' And some of the girls looked at me
because they did not know what was going to
happen, and then he suddenly took out his
gun and he fired three bullets. One bullet
hit me right here - at this side of my forehead
- and then the other two bullets hit my other
two friends who were sitting next to me - Shazia
and Kainat.
JENNIFER BYRNE: And you called your book in
answer...
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: Yes.
JENNIFER BYRNE: ..I Am Malala.
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: So, when he said that 'Who
is Malala?' I could not answer his question.
I wish I could because I'd always think about
the situation before that incident, that 'What
if a Talib comes? What would I say to him?'
And I would tell him that education is important
and I'm speaking for their children as well.
And I want...
JENNIFER BYRNE: So, you'd have given him a
lecture.
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: Yes, and I would have said
what I always wanted, but at that time he
did not really give me a chance to say it.
And as I looked he just shot me. And I was
not covering my face, that's why he recognised
me - all the other girls they were covering
their faces except me. But after that I don't
remember anything, and suddenly I woke up
in a hospital in Birmingham. I did not know
what happened, who brought me to the UK and
where are my parents. I did not know anything.
Anything at all.
JENNIFER BYRNE: It must have been such a horrifying
experience. One minute you're in the bus...
and then you're in a... actually, four hospitals
later, two countries later.
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: As I always say, I was only,
like, three minutes away from my home but
the journey was so long that it never ended.
And I'm still on that journey, and I'm hopeful
that I will go back to Pakistan and go to
my home, my school, see my friends, my teachers
and everyone.
JENNIFER BYRNE: Can I just a direct question?
Your injuries, physically, how are you travelling?
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: So, my injuries and everything,
they recovered really quickly. And even though
my face, it has a bit of problem They did
the facial nerve surgery but it cannot be
100% the same as it was before. So, it is
getting better now - I can smile, I can blink
my eyes so it is getting better every day.
JENNIFER BYRNE: And what about psychologically?
I mean, how did the 9th of October, 2012,
when you were shot, actually affect the way
you think of the world, the way you are?
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: I had a little bit of fear
in my heart that - 'How would it feel if someone
comes and shoots me or if I get killed and
how would it feel?' But when I was shot, that
thing really changed. I'm stronger than I
was before and, as I said at the speech in
the UN, that when my weakness, fear and hopelessness
died, strength, power and courage was born
on that day. So, yes, courage is now born
and I am feeling stronger. And now I know
that no-one can stop me - even death is supporting
me in my cause.
JENNIFER BYRNE: Did you ever find out who
the person was?
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: No, I don't know that person
and I don't really think about them. They
might have been told by someone else, by their
leaders, by the people who they follow, that,
'Go and do this.' That person might have been
thinking that he's doing a great job or he
is making the God happy. He might have been
brainwashed. But he might not have realised
that God has given us life and it should be
his right to take it away. And this is what
we are saying - that we should not kill each
other, we should respect each other’s lives.
And lives are so sacred. Why should we just
kill it for a single reason of speaking for
education or for a single reason of wanting
freedom for women's rights? It's not... Why
should we make it an excuse and take someone's
life away?
JENNIFER BYRNE: I wonder how hard it is for
you to be away from home.
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: Well, I miss my home all
the time. And I never feel like home in any
country anywhere, including Birmingham.
JENNIFER BYRNE: Can you sum it up for me,
the experience of living in Birmingham?
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: So, in Birmingham there's
only one season, that's winter. And it's a
very nice place. Not very special, but a very
nice place. And they are very nice people
because they follow traffic rules - you would
never hear a horn or any sound in the market,
everything is going like they really follow
the rules. It's a good thing about the UK
and about Birmingham. And I'm going to a very
good school, it's amazing. So, I love my school
and I love the hospital there - Queen Elizabeth
Hospital - and that's why I'm there.
JENNIFER BYRNE: Yeah. But you're not planning
to stay there.
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: Maybe not.
JENNIFER BYRNE: Are there friends there for
you?
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: Well, I cannot find a friend
like Moniba - she's still my friend, we talk
on Skype, on the phone, and she still tells
me stories, what has happened. And I say,
'What's the latest news?' So, she's still
my friend. I can never find a friend like
her, she's my best friend.
JENNIFER BYRNE: I want to show you this photo.
This is a... It's based on a very famous American
cultural icon - Rosie the Riveter - and this
is Malala. Have you seen this?
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: Ah, yes, someone showed
it to me.
JENNIFER BYRNE: It seems that the more popular
you become in the West and the more persuasive,
the more uncomfortable it can be in Pakistan.
How do you explain that?
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: Well, the first thing is
that people in every country are supporting
me. And when I look at the cards I have received
it's from the USA, the UK, from Japan, from
Australia, from Italy, from every country,
from Pakistan as well. So, it shows that everyone
from all over the world is supporting me.
But then, there's a criticism as well. And
it's only a very small group that criticizes,
very small things and very tiny, tiny things.
JENNIFER BYRNE: Your father has taken a lot
of flak for the fact that you were in danger
and he allowed you to do that. In fact, maybe
he even encouraged you.
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: So, my father would always
tell me 'Malala, don't say the word "Taliban",
say the word "terrorist" because if you say
Taliban you're directly targeting them and
it can put your life at risk.' But I would
always say the word 'Taliban' because there
are many people who say 'terrorist', who say
'their people' and 'those people' and 'these
people'. I say we need someone to say that
'Yes, these are the Taliban who are doing
all this terrorism and who are killing people,
who are blasting schools.'
JENNIFER BYRNE: So, you were the one who chose
to name the names.
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: Yes. And my father also
said their name, but he did not want me to
say it because he wanted to see me safe and
in protection. But it was my own personal
choice that I would say it. I would tell my
father, 'OK, OK, I'm not going to say it.
But when I would go to events, when I would
speak, when I would give a speech, I would
always say it.'
JENNIFER BYRNE: Not such a dutiful daughter,
then.
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: Ah, well, it's a kind of
disobedience, but it was about speaking for
the truth and saying what's real.
JENNIFER BYRNE: He's obviously enormously
important and dear to you. Do you get upset
when he's criticised? As he has been.
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: I think we should look at
those millions of people who are supporting
us and how they're supporting me to continue
in the campaign. So, they are also supporting
their father, and many of them say that, 'This
is... We need fathers like my father because
he let his daughter go forward and to do what
she really wants and to let her be independent.
People would criticise you if you have such
a big call and if you want to bring change.
And if you want to make sure that 57 million
children are going to school then it's a big
challenge. You are not only fighting for education
but you are also fighting against early child
marriages, you are also fighting against those
taboos which go against girls' rights. You
are also fighting against child trafficking,
so you are fighting all the issues that are
stopping children from going to school. So,
I think that then it becomes difficult how
you're going to do it, but if you want to
take the steps then you should be ready for
all the difficulties.
JENNIFER BYRNE: Is it becoming increasingly
difficult to focus on a single thing? That
it's what in America they call 'mission creep'?
You started off with a mission to have girls'
education and now it includes a whole range
of feminist and human rights issues. Is it
hard to keep your own focus?
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: So, now I'm getting my education,
and I haven't finished my college and university,
so I think that now, right now, I'm only going
to focus on education and how we can do advocacy
and reach the responsible people to tell them
that they should fulfil their responsibility
and they should listen to people and they
should make sure that every child is going
to school. And we're doing it through the
Malala Fund, which I set up with my other
friend and my father, who is now the CEO.
And we set up the Malala Fund to also do work
on the ground. So, not only us, the responsible
people to do something, but we also want to
try our best from our side as well. So, building
schools - we built a school in Kenya, we provided
scholarship to those girls who are suffering
from domestic child labour in Pakistan, we
went to Jordan to help refugee children, we
also went to Nigeria to speak for those girls
who are abducted by Boko Haram. And I was
so lucky that I got the opportunity to meet
Goodluck Jonathan and to raise the voices
of those girls who escaped from their abduction
and who are under their abduction, as well
as the voices of those parents who are crying
and saying, 'We want our daughters to come
back home.' Other than that, I also need to
focus on my study because I have exams coming
next year, and I need to be well-prepared
for that if I want to continue.
JENNIFER BYRNE: That's what I wanted to ask
- how is the study? I mean, the actual crucial
business of your own education?
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: It's going quite well nowadays,
but I'm quite busy in the evenings. So, it's
quite difficult. I want to be the best in
studies because I want education for every
child, including me, and that's why I think
I should focus on my education as well. I
won't like to step away and say, 'Oh, I just
don't want to do these campaigns anymore,'
- I would do it, but I would do it only on
my weekends, in summer holidays, winter holidays,
in holidays only, not during school time.
JENNIFER BYRNE: I have read that your book,
your adult book, is not available in Pakistani
schools - it has been banned in parts of Pakistan.
Is that true?
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: Well, it was banned by a
few people, a few school principals, and it
was not like, it's not banned in all parts
of Pakistan - there are many people who have
read the book, including my friend. She's
reading the book.
JENNIFER BYRNE: Moniba?
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: Yes. I sent her one book
and everyone is asking her for the book, so
she says that no-one is letting me to have
the book with me, everyone is just taking
the book. So, there are many people who have
read it.
JENNIFER BYRNE: And the new book, which is
particularly for young adults, why have you
done that?
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: Well, it was very important
to have a children's addition as well because
I spoke for children's education and I am
still speaking for children's rights and their
education.
JENNIFER BYRNE: When can you go back, do you
think? Is it necessary to?
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: Well, I want to go back
to Pakistan, but it's also important for me
to get quality education. So, I might go there
for a visit, go there in a holiday, but I
would go there and live there after I finish
my university - that's what I'm hoping.
JENNIFER BYRNE: So, that is your plan.
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: Yes. Because I think I would
feel more powerful and more well-prepared
when I get quality education and have good
experiences and to know how to solve problems.
JENNIFER BYRNE: So, you feel absolutely confident
that you will continue moving into politics.
When will that happen?
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: Going to politics, going
back to Pakistan, I want to work for education,
I want to work for the prosperity of my country
'cause I love Pakistan, I love the people
of Pakistan. It's my home country and I want
to see it better, prosperous, developed. I
want to see every child going to school in
Pakistan, and my friends, whom I used to see
every morning going to other people's houses
to clean their dishes, to clean their clothes,
not going to school. And it was my dream to
see those children with pens and books and
in school uniform, going to school and learning.
So, I want to fulfil that dream and go back
to my country and make sure that every child
does get quality education.
JENNIFER BYRNE: And you will run for Prime
Minister? Is that your plan?
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: I'm hopeful, and that's
what I'm preparing myself for. Because a politician's
job is not only to highlight issues but as
well as to solve those issues.
JENNIFER BYRNE: So, we'll finish where we
began, if we might, Malala, which is that
at that UN speech you were wearing a shawl
given to you by the family of Benazir Bhutto,
the only female Prime Minister of Pakistan.
What did that mean to you?
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: Well, Benazir Bhutto, she
is a very brave woman leader. She was a very
brave woman leader, and she showed an example
to women all over the world, including girls,
that they should believe in themselves and
yes, they can become Prime Ministers, become
Presidents, so she also gave a hope to me
that if I want to do politics or I had this
hope that 'If Benazir Bhutto could become
Prime Minister it means I can also become
a Prime Minister'. So, she has given this
hope to every woman, every girl in Pakistan
and all around the world, and that's why I
wore the shawl of Benazir Bhutto on the day
when I was giving my speech at the UN. And
I was feeling honoured and I was feeling proud
that we had set a great woman leader in Pakistan.
JENNIFER BYRNE: Malala, do you ever run out
of energy? Ever?
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: Well, I am a human being.
I do get tired. But when it comes to the campaign
of education, then no.
JENNIFER BYRNE: It's been a huge pleasure
to talk to you. Thank you so much, Malala.
MALALA YOUSAFZAI: Thank you.
