aha yes ah it is a hard one this one yes
Pruitt and this is Jim Davis and today
we are all fired up to talk about
descent into Avernus first impressions
On web DM
descent into Avernus it is the most
recent foray into adventuring from
Wizards of the coast surly just came out
it's the time of recording here for us
days with us so these are our first
impression yes first impression this
isn't we didn't read through it cover to
cover and and take you know notes and
goldblum it in every not really foot
through the whole thing
dove into some select sections that that
looked interesting or that i was kind of
like curious how they handled that
particularly paying particular attention
to sort of chapter 1 chapter 3 and then
chapter 5 yeah more parts of those
chapters and then of course the
appendices and guests here what do you
think of this adventure and where do you
place it in the hierarchy of all of the
other the other where does this where
does it stack up so descend the a
furnace is a different adventure than
what's what we were building up to
towards for like last year or something
for me it kinda starts with cursive
straud and then yawning portals next in
to violation so yawning portal is just
this kind of put some dungeons in your
world have some stuff out there short
ventures but between like cursive straud
storm Kings thunder jokes all schema and
then tomb of annihilation I thought we
were moving towards a more freeform
sandbox style of DMD adventures that it
seemed as though the first few were
fairly linear tyranny of dragons now
having talked to some of the you know
Wolfgang Bower and deserve gotten his
insight into it lets me see that
adventure a new light and they're
actually releasing it with some updates
here pretty soon
might be interesting to check out it's a
path right it's and you're following the
trail of cultists and trying to stop
times literally for a long time
sometimes there's and so it seemed as
though like with each adventure there's
a gradual opening up of the world
opening up a player options and
broadening of the horizons and then like
we get to dragon heist and it's kind of
is this a city supplement not really is
it a heist
no and and is it you know the Dragons
refer to the coins and and so like
there's some people who sort of done
remixes of it the Alexandrian
one seat some others were sort of like
take the adventure and rework it and
break it up or use all the factions it
wants something like that I don't think
I really heard anything about anyone
playing mad mage like I mean I you know
maybe your people are using it as sort
of like filler dungeon levels but in
terms of like an adventure that people
were really talking about descent into a
furnace fits in closer to the tyranny of
dragons adventure in which it's a bit
more linear than say curse of straw or
storm Kings Thunder and parts that are
very linear and including like you know
sending massive groups of NPCs to make
sure the players do what the module
expects them to do and then in other
parts very wide open but not necessarily
with guidelines and tools to help you
navigate that space and and one of the
real downfalls of sandbox play is having
the freedom become a source of paralysis
you know that's very common to happen as
that players sort of get to freeform
area like what do I do
there are certainly groups of players
who don't mind a little more linear type
game and so like in the context of the
other adventures if it feels weird it's
like I'm I look at a Vernis and what
I've seen of it and and part of me goes
like this doesn't feel this feels like a
3/4 sort of finished product and and I
don't know if it's the tacking on
baldur's gate stuff that bumped other
things sort of out of it
or the the fact that they're kind of
giving you more like pieces to build
yourself and then and then just dive it
done the deep dive needed to find where
they've supply the connective tissue but
at first glance it looks like there's a
lot of sort of disjointed elements that
you're gonna have to do a lot of work to
put together and some of those tend
towards the very linear this is the path
the players have to follow and then
others of those are more like the book
suggests that there's things that the
players are supposed to do
like for instance at some point when
they're adventuring in a Burness they
have to choose between a path of devils
versa path of demons let's pure meta
game concepts they're not things that
exist in the world no 1 references them
no NPCs do just reading that section
of the book and then seeing how maybe
other people who've either read it and
how they're anticipating running and in
their games there's already sort of talk
of like how do you communicate that the
places that the players are expected to
go where the characters are expected to
go that there's not anyone in the world
pointing them in that direction and
those locations don't have an immediate
obvious connection to this is Ariel sort
of belt rail storyline that's sort of
partially my read through of other
people's reactions as well as my own
as reading through it it's like this
feels in some ways like the move to kind
of create adventures that are easy to
run and you can you know have kind of a
process for running them this was left
behind and now we're having more like
these are evocative encounters that
really cool a lot of the NPC's in here
or just really really awesome and look
fun to run but it feels like something's
missing yeah whenever I was looking
through it speaking of that thing's
missing sound awful sounds awfully a lot
like a critique so let's let's let's
start with some critiques sure what we
have seen and then we'll move on to what
we like there's stuff in here that is
definitely worth that I'm gonna use this
oh absolutely absolutely yeah but some
critiques and there's one huge one that
a lot of people are just dying yeah they
talk about yeah and it's the first thing
that I really read about the adventure
is well you want to give us a breakdown
yeah well I mean here's the thing the
venture kind of starts with a party
there in baldur's gate they're supposed
to meet this guy who's come to acting
captain of the flaming fist because the
main Grand Duke he's gone to Ella trail
and his disappeared this picture this
guy's trying to keep keep law and order
and baldur's gate yeah all this refugees
and you first meet him as he's basically
beating refugees who are trying to push
through the gate yeah and he's like go
to this bar and see this person about
this problem that we don't have the
manpower this is mighty we don't have
the manpower to do this we need you
scrubs go do this and then the very next
paragraph is basically like if they
don't go immediately he'll send parties
after them to remind them yeah if the
party continues to refuse yeah kill them
if they bring them in and then kill them
no no it really says kill them in the
book and I'm just like that
just not good advice why don't you err I
actually offer an incentive for the
party now I understand this is an
adventure you said you're your party hey
guys we're gonna run descent into a
furnace yeah yeah right yeah so you
would think that they would just kind of
there's there's a certain amount of just
like metagame like alright we'll do this
yeah yeah but when you put in your book
if the party doesn't do what you want
kill them yeah it's like the way a lot
of these are the way a lot of these
adventures are presented is as if you
were running a more sandbox open style
world and they just happen to come
across this adventure the party's just
tooling around one day and going they
were adventuring in Waterdeep now
they're coming back to other polish game
oh I don't have never read or
experienced or heard third you know
where that's how it was done either
someone breaks these things up into
little pieces and sort of like in search
them and really weaves them into their
game or they just sort of like run them
as is and in that case I think like the
book is underserved by not having a
bigger section for how to create
characters for this adventure yeah and
especially given the subject content to
this adventure the enemies that you're
dealing with the kind of advice that the
d that they give the DM and like running
Devils and and you know navigating
diabolical contracts and things like
that the fact that there is not a here's
how you run a session zero for this
adventure here are some questions to ask
your players to gauge their comfort
level with this kind of material we've
mentioned before about safety tools and
all kinds of things and they have their
controversial and not everybody uses
them but a conversation at bare minimum
yeah of expectations of what characters
is everybody but interested in playing
and it makes a big difference in this
adventure if you play neutral characters
versus good characters and you might
find that you think it'd be really cool
to play a bunch of like good characters
you go to rescue a city and potentially
you know redeem a you know a powerful
cosmic figure but they're gonna have a
tough time yeah cuz they got to make
they got to negotiate with all kinds of
fiendish creatures and make morally
compromising decisions and there's gonna
be some people who feel like that is not
why I'm playing like I'm playing to play
a character that doesn't that rises
above that like their goodness and
ooh-yah preclude those kinds of morally
gray areas it's gonna get really hard to
do that it will you're working free and
open in hell when we went to the live
event like I remember then touting that
like we want to put characters in
morally ambiguous yeah you're doing good
you have to do a little evil yeah this
isn't this isn't South Park the movie
with the devil where you must be good to
be evil busy you know you can't have one
without the other not since I find that
the adventure has not it's not a morally
ambiguous but it's a it's more like a
confused moral compass yeah
it's one thing to be morally ambiguous
because the ambiguity is about something
that's concrete yeah right you are you
are hiding and obscuring something
that's a bit more that could be black
and white or is complicated enough that
that the black and white is not as
clear-cut but parts of it feeling
consistent so example would be the
celestial companion you have with you
Lulu which is like an interesting
companion love the holy font just the
idea of them they're a fun celestial to
introduce I love just weird animal
Celestials Dumbo yeah but it's also sort
of like what is that thing like there
are moments where you're asked in the
adventure like okay which of these arch
Devils do you want to choose to side
with which of these you know you know
how often are you gonna destroy a soul
in order to enter war in order to travel
across an arbitrarily long distance
yeah and it's those kinds of things that
when I look at it I don't know so much
see moral ambiguity and like grappling
with the consequences of something I see
listen if you like player you want to
continue playing this game these are the
things that you you might find
despicable or your character might buy
despicable that you're gonna have to do
to continue playing the game that's a
different thing than character you're
gonna have to make this decision between
two really bad options in order to get
what you want but the game's gonna
continue regardless and I just didn't
get that feel from some of the sections
and there I couldn't it was hard to tell
whether or not the adventure had a
perspective on the matter and it's
confused by the fact that I saw and I
had written that the hell portions just
don't feel particularly hellish that
that and I suppose it that kind of needs
to be the case given that you know if it
was entirely 100% inhospitable and
everyone there you know an enemy Lakes a
fire-and-brimstone yeah then it would be
really difficult to play through that
but also I expect a bit more wickedness
and a bit more just outright evil and I
think you can explain explain away some
of it but just totally I found it a
little a little all over the place
yeah and it kind of confused not a big
deal like you know you can clean up a
lot of that and how and how you present
it but it contributed to sort of a sense
of like I'm on board okay this is a more
linear adventure this is not a sandbox
that we've got a thing to do we've got a
problem to solve but like what's the
perspective here like and this is where
I think having something at the
beginning where they could clear up some
of these because you didn't say like all
right here's how alignment here's how we
conceive of alignment working in the
context of this adventure
yeah is it an absolute this is Forgotten
Realms right this isn't your home brew
where everything's morally gray this is
the Forgotten Realms where there are
laws and cost rules laid out about good
and evil and everything the forced
perspective of we should care about
baldur's gate because this is gonna
happen here and it could happen here as
the driving force of why you why you why
the third or fourth level characters are
gonna go into hell yeah yeah and so I
think that if some tools were in there
on how to better integrate the
characters and their backgrounds into
the world with regards to this adventure
much of the adventure because there are
right tools that to integrate you into
Baldur's Gate yeah I think between the
gazetteer that's there and a book like
say heroes of baldur's gate from DOL or
even murder and Baldur's Gate from D&D
next you could have a ton of stuff to
run I mean it bombers gets one of my
favorite cities in the Forgotten Realms
because of the video games and no for me
more than never one or not meant more
than Neverwinter or more than Waterdeep
all right yeah I assumed or anything
like Baldur's Gate is the iconic
Forgotten Realms City for me and so it's
really cool to just see like alright wow
this is this is what's here I we will
talk more about that in the stuff that
we did like about it and we would use
but yeah but yes you're right I think
having something that ties the
characters to the adventure of
descending into a furnace and right now
most of the ties are there to rope you
into baldur's gate which is really just
there for one chapter the book as
presented does not seem to expect there
to be a lot of freedom in that section
it seems to be like you go from bar
fight to dungeon to bar fight - dungeon
and like each time there's something
telling you where you need to go next
you don't have to search for clues you
don't have to interpret anything yeah
not really a background that like makes
you like a hill writer so certainly yes
maybe one of the ones that escaped and
you're here with a group and that gives
you a reason to go save your city yeah
you know I don't know yes there's a lot
of difference and I and I think again if
I was gonna write if I was going to
attempt to run this book like as the
adventure presented I would do that we
would have a good sit-down talk about
like all right what kind of characters
are y'all got thinking of playing
because that's the kind of adventure
that these things sort of deal with I'm
perfectly fine saying like yeah we can
we're not gonna worry about character
death it may happen but part of the
appeal of this is that a character dies
into this thing and they go on this
quest or or fulfill this thing there's
plenty of other ways to sort of threaten
them setbacks things like that but you
know what kind of keeps some players
from fully in you know fully tapped
latching onto a campaign is there like
wow I don't want to invest all this to
have a character die or something so
yeah you might say that you might say
well maybe that's off the table so that
you guys can really get invested in this
and maybe you're from El Toro maybe
you're a member of these nightly orders
that have sprung up as the city of the
nation of El Toro has grown because part
of this is is like you've been prepped
for this way I would read Norden times
total foes the section on the blood war
Sword Coast adventurers guide the whole
section on el Tyrell if you're one of
our patreon subscribers listened to the
podcast you'll know that when I was
doing my reread of Sword Coast
adventurers guide like the minute I got
to her I was like holy crap this place
is awesome like wait a minute of vampire
ruled here and someone like prayed for
help against it and a second son showed
up and no one knows what it is and it
just like seemed ripe for adventure it
pure coincidence that
like a week before this book was an hour
so it is clearly a place that likes
something awesome gonna happen years
lots of different ways to hook them in
and the way they chose the way the
riders the adventure chose to do it is
just confusing because the whole like if
you're not gonna get player by and
before you even start this thing before
even make characters then you're leaving
the door open for them to say no thanks
like that's I think those those are the
two options to me and and you there's no
permutations on it but the the option of
saying like well you know they're gonna
stumble into this adventure without
knowing it and then we're not gonna let
them leave yeah
even if it does make sense you know I
know that some people like well it's a
boulder skates there
fascists these flaming fist so that's
what you get for having mercenaries
serve as your town guard you know yeah I
mean you know if that's all you're
beholding to is the coin that you're
paid yeah come on come on
honestly I I have not read enough cuz I
just kind of read the I read the prelude
and kind of the the breakdown of the the
path and I read the first section right
up and into the bar and the bar fight
yeah and all and that stuff I really got
hung up on that chat on that a lot I
read it like four times like certainly
I'm not reading this right but then I
read all of the appendices like like
I've read through all the NPC's and the
contracts and and so let's get into what
we like right so I yeah I'll sit and as
usual I have one last word to say am I
gonna let prudence last word on this one
but just like these do it the reason why
it's important the reason why it's
important the reason why people get so
passionate about it the reason why you
can't just say who cares there it gets
them on the path to adventure is because
the difference between getting player by
it yeah that says you guys are going
this is how the opening bits of this
adventure work just to get us going in
the right direction but here are some
things that are we might think don't
make sense so let's like think about
them right now maybe your characters are
you in a unique position to be the kind
of people who would fix this and that
means they're maybe not just scrubs
wandering the streets of Baltar's game
but when you go with the palette like
this is the adventure we're going down
at oh yeah well of course the guard
would come round you up and do these
things that's the Dee
equivalent of my character would ya is
what that is
and we tell players like hey that's
really not cool like if you're doing
something that's gonna be detrimental to
the group if you're gonna be doing
something that breaks trust between
player and DM if you're doing something
that undermines player agency then
that's a DM behavior that we at least on
web DM we really try to say please don't
do that that could that breeds all kinds
of animosity much trust between players
and DMS it just contributes to bad
feelings across the hobby and to see it
in a rule book as like and not like as
one of many options or with a discussion
of how to do this in a way that doesn't
undermine player agency but still
reinforces the fact that baldur's gate
is becoming increasingly tyrannical in
more than just what it is guidance yeah
because there's a lot of people who
learn how to run these games through
these adventures and if they're if this
sort of thing is presented without
guidance or context and they might just
feel like oh yeah well it's okay for me
to do that you know that's where you get
bad feelings all around yeah sorry but
if you don't have the people to go do
this why do you have the people to make
sure the players go do it so it's little
things like that so now that we're 20
minutes into the show now that we're
talking and we've gotten all the
bitching out of the way sure things that
we like first off I will say this the
art in this blood is bad yeah I'm sorry
I am so glad that the art has taken a
turn I don't want to say the N word
which is numenera
oh I'm sorry but some of that art looks
awfully numenera esque certainly yeah
just saying it in a good way it's not
that sense of sweeping majesty scope
like go yeah yeah I don't feel like that
particularly just fee there's some
there's some pieces especially like the
back of the book I'm not I don't know if
the zipper swing the alt cover and the
the original cover if there's an even so
the content I don't think there is but
like that that's sort of like
inspirational concept art in the back
there's some pieces in there that you
just like I can you can the adventure
come with an 11 by 8 panel of this that
I can put them
on the screen you know is things like
that it's sweeping landscapes is this
scale of the blood war some of the sort
of battle scenes where it's like you
know horizon to horizon devils and
demons yeah fighting it gives you a
sense of some of that lots of full-page
spreads and it's it really is one of
those where I look at it and go like I
think a like if there was a map back to
this it should also come with a handout
of these images that you can take and
pass around the table and and that just
overall this is a quick aside but like
the general decline in players handouts
based on awesome illustrations is I
lament and and would encourage all you
know all products kind of include
because yeah it's fun look at it it's
also when it's a stretch goal but it
shouldn't be a stretch goal sure it's
well in 21st century speak it's one of
those things certainly not for a first
you know a big publisher oh yeah give us
um Matt give us a couple more pages to
chat we sure on that note I like the map
I love a good poster ramp I love the map
of a Vernis both sides are mailbox gate
and so it is one of things you can see
sort of having the map of a Vernis up
and creating kind of your own post
custom icons and tokens sort of put on
it to represent the features as written
a Vernis is a infinite space yeah and
therefore the only thing that's really
really important sort of like relative
distance between things so it's not a
true like heck scroll or something like
that but the map is still evocative
gives you good sense of the place yeah
why would it would it at least does is
gives you the landmarks it's just I do
like how it describes the fact that hell
it's like yeah I could only take you two
hours to get there but when you come
back the same route hours it might take
two days you're right yeah it's right in
that sense I would not run this as a
heck scroll I would write it as a point
crawl yeah with variable travel
distances between points and probably we
random encounters in between random
encounters between although when I think
about it I think of things like well the
metaphysical nature of the nine hells of
bayit or is not random yes so why long
would it be random like I would think
it's more you could begin if you stayed
long enough
you could begin to sense like the
pattern patterns of how long it takes
and that perhaps these the changes in
distance do follow some sort of pattern
now from behind the screen I might still
roll it randomly but I might have a bit
more of a system than just you know to
d4 or whatever right right or I might
not and you know just try to trick
people into thinking I do have it part
of the illusion
anything else we like about it I'm all
oh there's a lot that I like about it
the the the chapter on infernal
contracts I think is an absolutely
perfect little section yeah uh
especially for new diems yeah right yeah
I mean it says some stuff that's pretty
obvious like you want to look at their
their bonds flaws especially their flaws
and find a way to tempt those flaws by
the way to those don't be violent about
it sure you want to corrupt them you
don't want to destroy them
yeah that's what a dragon does that's
what a demon does demon shows up is like
oh I'll just rip you in half or
something like that or or or you know
make you go kill a bunch of people
because that's just what a demon does I
first off yeah diabolical deals this
needed to be in the dmg like this needs
to warlike section you've been the
Warlock same shit really honestly it
needs to have tables for archway and and
great old ones like so it like to me
this is how your random club became a
warlock that it gives the fiend warlock
at least it gives you a cue to a reason
to use the true names and talismans from
the monster manual and this is something
that I that I was like going back and
rereading and thinking like or in the
monster mailer there's a section with
Devils it's like true names and whatever
how do you get a true name from a devil
well if you charm a devil you can get it
from them or you can research it I'd let
you do it with downtime activity in the
right library but then it doesn't tell
you what happens when you have one it
tells you that they don't like you to
give it one that they you can use
powerful magics to ever but then it's
like what do I do with it
and then in this you'd use it to sign
contracts you use it like I'm assuming
with a special version of like conjure
fiend or something like that and but
when you think about it's like don't the
devils want as many contracts signed as
possible
because if they fail then that's a soul
if they fulfill it then they're now
they've now contracted with hell and
they're now a lemear so they can be they
can start climbing the infernal ranks
just increasing that's the only way
they're getting recruited Devils rights
only way they were punished their ranks
is to get mortals to you know sign these
things and come aboard so like wouldn't
the devil just be giving out their true
names all over the place
so that anyone who wants one can sign a
contract with them like I don't know
it's nitpick and whatever but it's just
I like the I like the flavor of it I
like the fact that sort of gives you
more you know yeah I can find the way to
get this talisman and then summon one of
these things did strike a deal with it
so I don't have to go to hell also I
think if I'm remember correctly it has a
little spot in there where it talks
about the fact that a devil was more
likely to deal in Hell certainly yeah
because if the players decide to fight
it and kill it it's gone it's got its
exact closer to its sort of base of
power there's a lot of usually a lot of
rules regarding like which fiends can
cross planar boundaries and which can't
so it could be a case of like you know
it would prefer that you negotiate with
it in hell just because it's easier yeah
you know they don't have to work through
proxies or have to rely on you to be
able to summon them you know it's like
and and sort of like think about it for
a minute it's in terms of like power
relations
you don't go to someone else someone
else comes to you right now you come to
yeah devil you come to and so like it
just in turn yeah in terms of just that
alone it must just chafe Devils to be
summoned you know that how dare you you
you should come to me brings up their
schedule yeah a strict schedule of shit
to do they also make it out of their own
reality people the prime material play
with this fucking ass yeah anyways but I
would but also you would think that even
though they are giving out their true
name in order to do these contracts I'm
sure it's in the fine print that if you
two are were to be launched this name
you're sure making the contract null and
void yeah yeah something like that
there's a lot of little little fine
print stuff there or you could just be
there like yeah it's their true name for
the purposes of conjuring them to strike
a deal but you have to say it backwards
right on another syllable if you want to
actually control them like there's a lot
of things you can do with true names to
sort of mess with player expectations
but I liked it I've known
to me I thought this was big enough that
I would want to put it in big bold
letters in the monster manual it says
that a charisma based check cannot
deceive or persuade most Devils into
making a bad deal because they are too
experienced in djenne and just trained
in making deals to fall for most Devils
a question I have is alright so which
who are who are the not most Devils you
know is that are we letting this come
down to pure you know you know insight
versus versus deceive or is this like a
benchmark or something and then it's
kind of one of those things where a lot
of players don't treat their charisma
based skills as these skills they are
they kind of they sort of the
expectation is like why past that got 29
on that persuade we're all like they're
gonna do anything right know that
there's just some things they're not
going to do and so in this sense it's
like I like the explicit calling out of
this you can't just roll dice out of
your pop out of this and at best you can
like roll insight versus their deceive
to sort of see what they're up to what
kind of tricks they're pulling on you
but I like the explicit calling out of
it because it just it's tool to pull out
if there's a sort of a what you can do
with persuasion well I mean to me what
it does is it forces the player to
actually be more clever in setting the
deal up you have to make a deal that
looks like a great deal but it's not
straight up well I'm just lying because
that's what that commit to me that's
what this is like you're trying to make
a bad deal and convince them it is good
yeah well no we have to do is make a
deal that is so good that on the surface
yeah it hey what what is there to look
at I mean that's what the devils are
doing to you certain right so you have
to do the opposite back and so it make
it forces you to come up with a more
clever way a better ruse than just
straight up lying which is what most
players yeah oh yeah yeah sure I'm gonna
do that yeah yeah that's what a
deception chat the other thing that I
like and yours a true point out here
it's just the what do you what you get
the player to do like what the devil
wants the player to do and I think
there's good things you can think of
they're like actively I'm you they want
you to actively do this thing retrieve
this object it's the one they mentioned
in the her where it
like I'm gonna give you this information
and then I want you to do nothing with
it I'm going to tell you something
terrible a secret a calamity that will
happen and your job is to just do
nothing and to me it's that quote you
know the evil thrives when good men do
nothing kind of like it's hard to get
players to want to agree to something
that requires them to do something which
breaks their sense of character or they
see is a step too far an example this
would be like oh yeah you know I'll give
you what you want but you got to go out
there and like kill a bunch of people or
sacrifice souls to me or something like
that or go retrieve this thing that's so
far away you're gonna have to use a
warrior yeah you're gonna have to burn
us off you think you'll find a lot more
willingness to engage with it with
infernals and and also a better model
for coming that slow erosion of virtue
and principles when you just the devil
just just don't do anything like just
don't even worry about that just let
that thing go yeah let that joke door
but don't destroy that thing don't
pursue that enemy don't stop that great
evil just turn away just walk away and
you get what you want like whatever you
want and it's the easiest thing you ever
have to do which is nothing which is
nothing and to me that the devil's you
know in dealing with them the first few
big deals are kind of like that they're
very easy to work with initially they
don't put a lot on you and I'm asked a
lot and it's kind of like how I run
devil's is because I think a lot of
players expect if they're immediately
gonna start being messed with that
they're immediately gonna face lies that
they're immediately gonna face all this
other stuff and if you just are like no
there's none of that are they lying to
you you can't tell they seem honest you
as the DM in playing a devil are kind of
like metagaming you're playing on the
fact that the players know that they're
facing a devil so if you deliberately do
things that are not devilish it will
both throw them off and you know you
also present them with to me maybe it's
different it is different it would break
my suspension of disbelief it was yeah
because the devil doesn't lie a devil
uses language so confusing
make sure think you know what they're
talking about until the deal is done
you're like no no you didn't you didn't
notice that visible not in there you
know things like that yeah yeah
I have actually diamonds many many and
online argument about whether or not
Devils lie in fact sometimes on very on
web DM early on we got big
I think devil's lie all the time but
they're lying is of mini varieties right
deception subtlety subterfuge lies of
omission
you know falsehoods and little twist of
fates yeah or just or just the way they
way they were things right I mean it you
know it seems like a lie it seems like a
lie yeah I know for me I did to me
demons are the ones that never lie demon
will never lie to you there's just no
point in it why you just don't know what
they're gonna do yeah you don't know
what the devil's is like yeah are they
lying to you are they not I I like a
devil where they're polite their civil
their brains their looks like during the
middle management right it's like
talking to a some from HR and they might
even be cheerful and and quite pleasant
to be around
but they will use language and say
things that suggest if you don't do what
they want to do there's gonna be a world
of hurt come out I can say it they will
let you in my fur bosses yeah they'll
let you and fur Oh we'd be really
disappointed if that didn't happen we
hope that you're able to find it in you
to to make this come you know I'm happy
to have you aboard
whatever they do my rules for them are
they never say thank you they never say
please yes they'd never ask questions
either they they imply things they infer
things they let you make the connection
but you know they would never say it out
loud that's that's just not done yes
it's amazing so you got there be ashamed
of something that happened to it you
know what I mean we just want to look
out for it just looking out for happy to
have you on board with thank you so much
for your cooperation yeah we're really
excited to have your in you know
innovation curiosity the organization do
you think it's a breath of fresh air now
you know that kind of thing just sort of
dazzle them with HR bullshit speak which
maybe you can summit maybe you can't but
you know it's an alternative I get to
this sort of the creepy lawyers the the
kind of satanic kind of slick satanic
figure is the plucky middle management
devil Oh II just kind of touched on the
npc's and we can continue on that but
the the war machines yeah because this
is where your Mad Max and hell comes
from yes my god
I like the bay
war machines that they have yeah I like
the fact that they have some chase rules
in there some complications your arms
and the armaments the fact that you can
have like a chase scene where
everybody's engaged because you're these
big beasts and there's a there's a
platform with a with a gun or whatever
yep you're alone you have your artificer
repairing shit because what feels broke
I mean like it seems like I haven't
played through it but it's it's also one
of those things like well I'm gonna use
this shit spell jammer I mean it doesn't
have to be on the ground sure you know
you can use these things in other other
ways yeah yeah yeah and try and treating
them basically like creatures means that
they they they interface rather nicely
with monster rules and I think these
rules for war machines work better than
the ones from ghost Marsh yeah ghosts of
salt marsh ghost marsh I know some small
hardware
where that felt like like a ship is a
completely different thing it's it's a
choreographed you know actions of dozens
of crew and and it takes place at a much
slower pace and I'm just not sure that
like the way that you like fifth
editions combat system model auto ships
works that well and it's a kludge it
it'll it'll get us done or get us
through but it's not like the best
whereas here because the scales smaller
we're talking like motorcycle sized
things dune buggies and for big rigs
they're smaller scale and you're caught
an individual's contribution to any one
moment is much greater it's one person
driving one person operating this thing
one person crawling around the machine
trying to repair things does it happened
plus the mishap a threshold right where
it's like I damaged you or you know and
I'm I got over your damage threshold and
now like whatever double that is this
mishap and so you might have tires that
get blown off or a direct hit to the
engine and so it creates a dynamic
environment and with the chase rules the
way they work it's like after your turn
you roll a d20 and it'll tell you what
happens and then the next person has to
deal with that yeah and so ideally
you're like all the time we're having a
deal okay we've got a patch of rough
ground we got to drive around oh well
okay well we you know we you know we
jerked the wheel too hard that way so
once those climate on the
trying to repair something give me an
athletics checker right like it's a
dynamic environment and you know in
those kind of chase scenes all you
really need to know is like the relative
distance between vehicles and their
relative speeds and so you can sort of
handle it like that and I'm eager to try
them out
both four-lane between two rivers and
just just in general I think you'd
switch easily make sand skiffs and air
air ships and all kinds of cool things I
really like them I think there's some
questions that diems will have to work
out with regards to whether or not you
can use demon eye core in a war machine
before it's been ignited with a soul
coin there are rules to save the souls
before their you know if you have a
lawful good person who's like alright is
this soul coin but before the soul is is
destroyed in the furnace you can find
some way to start a siphon it out you
know you have a siphon gas spell or
second Souls just so you don't destroy
them and sure maybe that's your one way
to try to get around that yeah but
you're still putting a soul at risk just
to drive a car mister driver you know I
I don't know maybe there's some
political commentary there
I am so that's what we liked about
there's a lot all of the stuff in the
baldur's gate section is great and and
especially like the guard reaction
tables the the various like encounter
tables what you find in the city it's
just not particularly relevant to the
adventure you don't stay in Baldur's
Gate kind of one enough which to me and
I know we're running long and in there
in our review of it light or for
suppression is like it's the it's that
moment where I would start expanding and
breaking this thing apart and running
something different because if baldur's
gate is gonna be the focus that on to
spend more time in baldur's gate and
it's gonna be baldur's gate that gets
dragged to a furnace it's gonna be
baldur's gate hovering over the river
Styx and looking down over the ruins of
ultra litters sinking into the river
yeah sort of as you see what you're what
has happened already yeah and that way
yeah so you spend a bit more time
dealing with the refugee crisis now I
also am of the impression and of the
opinion that
you should stretch out those lower
levels a bit more that you shouldn't
spend one session that first level
should be a bit more than the one and
you can really kind of stretch things
out with both the gazetteer and
basically running chapter one the same
way with a pregame buy-in from the
players that you guys either this or
maybe you're already members of the
watch or whatever or just let them know
hey heads up this is how the adventure
starts and in those cases I would treat
it same way with it with like out of the
abyss where the offending railroad has
happened before we begin yeah you are
already being escorted to this place
with additional flaming fish soldiers
you already have your orders you have
already agreed to accept this thing
that's handled in the pre session you
know buying with input from the players
yeah because I mean we face it we don't
get all the time done this all the time
because this is how you do it you say
hey this adventure assumes that you're
gonna follow this path for a while yeah
it'll be a little linear but if you guys
feel like going off the rails just let
me know almost think of something to do
it's--that's and it always works out and
then from there as they start uncovering
clues just don't point them immediately
to the right place
you know the the connection between say
these these murders and sort of the dead
three cults that seem to have a lot of
prominence in the first part of the
adventure and don't after the first
chapter like you can stretch that out
and they can kind of get to know a bit
more I think really playing up Bane is
is the big one because Bane is lawful
evil and you can sort of see the bay
Knights and answer of how they would do
things as mirrors to both the guard and
and Cersei like yeah the the the guard
and the cult's they're presumably trying
to break up or just terrible to the
people the neighborhoods that live here
and also like the devil's act the same
way too so you know you're besides one
coin that's all it is
yeah but it gives them a sense that you
can build up the sense that that yeah
that baldur's gate is not doing well and
as the rising tide of totalitarianism
takes over the city state as the patch
rears and
and whatnot you know maybe still have
the Grand Duke disappearing and and
without that third Duke the remaining
three sort of are locked in a bit of a
power struggle and what do we do no
one's you know our guard a mercenary
guard is without their leader and
they're running amuck and all this is
made worse by the schemes and
machinations of certain members of the
council and stretch it out a bit let it
breathe let the players come to their
own conclusions about things let them
develop their own conspiracy theories
about what could be going on drop tiny
hints here and there all with the
constant pressure of refugees and then
as they finally start realizing like
holy crap like what happened to elder
all is about to happen here we can see
it there's increased cult activity
related to XYZ or whatever and that sort
of it puts the players from the
beginning at the heart of this
investigation so that when they receive
the final clue that sends them to
candlekeep which I would not require
them to go to candlekeep I just find a
sage it's fine you know or maybe they
know themselves and then you can get
them you know into a furnace and that's
assuming I wasn't just gonna start it
again abacus yeah that's that's assuming
I wouldn't just go like yeah we can
always start it like six level yeah I
want to read through it but right now
like I have a couple of ideas of how I
would use this yeah I would literally
just being pulling the whole like Mad
Max Bonjour Jean art out of it just like
coming up with something they're like I
already have an idea for right basically
the the 24 hours at LeMans yeah I
imagine going through like different
layers of hell or even other planes yeah
so having imagine having to use a soul
coin yeah another plane of existence yes
what would happen there what would
happen there oh yeah oh god oh my god so
it's like it's it's like the Cannonball
Run but instead of coast to coast it's
doing the entire Great Wheel everybody
to every every gate town on the big
wheel it's like the hellish mode Ron bar
it's a or it's the you you're the lead
car for the mode Ron March is you just
kind of come through as like oh here
they come here they come I would
honestly do something like that I
you want to run this I have talked to
our old school peeps and like I kind of
want to just run this just to run it so
we can say we did yeah
I'm not you know I was like the
beginnings kind of doesn't really got me
all hot and bothered which it should
sure what are your kind of thoughts your
closing thoughts on that
ie so once they get to a furnace I would
know I would I would break that open
around as a proper sandbox like I said I
do point crawl where I would I would
take that map and just start putting
locations on it and and finding you know
what happens when they try to travel
between it I think I would probably mine
chapter 3 very heavily in terms of just
it looks like there are already a ton of
locations and things that happen there
what there isn't our tables to tell you
what they might what players might find
in between those locations hazards they
might come across and the like so I come
up with something like that I've already
sort of started because we were just
sort of like sitting there thinking like
yeah what are the kind of creatures you
would sort of run across in the first
level of hell and so it's it's not just
Devils you know although and it's not
every devil either so you have like am
Nezumi portals with you know like Legion
you know dread legions of lemierre's or
you know beardy devils sort of out on
patrol but you could have other things
like tiefling cambion all manner of
youghal off mercenary companies they're
just kind of out and about and around
ghouls would probably be all over in
other forms of like corporeal undead
probably just like all over the place
around there especially given like the
battlefields and whatnot hellhounds help
cats hel boars and hel wasps just like
regular animals that have you know just
become warped and twisted by the place
because one of the things I like about
D&D is that you have an excuse for every
place to have settlements townspeople
monsters factions like every place can
be a D&D setting and you can really sort
of do fun things where it's like you got
to track down some Meza LOF mercenaries
and cut a deal with them or find a
knight hat and find a different night
hag to undermine you know but first
night hack a bash I are also found there
there's sort of exist outside the infirm
hierarchy they come in like a wide range
of power levels so they offer you a lot
of really cool sort of things and I
think like anything that increases Tia
mots role in this adventure Arkham
accruals role at the moment the
name-dropped NPCs or really just sort of
underserved and so if you're a fan of
that character and its connections to I
mean I do know there is a part in there
where they mentioned TM on like how you
can bring yeah yeah final resolution
there they mention it unfortunately
according to what I have read both in
the book and in reviews the connections
between those places and how they fit
into sort of the you know finding what
you need to find to deal with serial
notice tough are not strong or mentioned
at all and there's like several things
dealing with the final chapter that are
like the players could do XYZ but no one
in the book has suggested this as a
course of action that are I find that
the really it's the last chapter that I
find is the most sort of head-scratching
and like disjointed and I think you know
if you get to that section of the book
and or if you get that section your
actual game spending a lot of time
thinking like alright there they're
describing for these isolated moments in
what might happen at the end of this
campaign and you're gonna have to fill
in like a lot of details in how it works
some diems love that they absolutely
love it and and the the challenge of
filling in those details is why they run
these others gonna hate it yeah why do I
have to do so much work if you liked the
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