Chrystia: We have one more session,
and if we're disciplined, even
though we started late, we
will have time for a few
questions at the end.
I'm sure people have them.
It's been such an inspiring
a group of presenters.
This final session is going to
be with two people who again
have been selected to make the
rest of us I feel like we
haven't really done that
much with our lives.
The first is June Arunga.
Can you come up to
the stage, June?
June is trained as a lawyer,
she is now the founder and
president of a film and
television documentary
production company.
One of her documentaries is The
Devil's Footpath, which is a
fantastic account of a
5,000 mile journey from
Cairo to Capetown.
And she also is an expert on
what seems like, and I feel bad
saying this because it sounds
like an ad for Sanjiv but she's
an expert on the cell phone
revolution in Kenya.
So more mobile phone
support, I think.
The second person who
we'll be talking to
is Mark Shuttleworth.
It's hard for me to summarize
in couple of sentences
all of Mark interests.
They range from actually having
been a cosmonaut, I mean that,
actually going up into space,
and most impressively in
my view, spending seven
months in Kazakhstan.
I've only managed about
seven days at a time.
Also, Mark is a great proponent
and supporter of science and
math education and
South Africa.
He's a technology entrepreneur,
everything from internet
piracy, to venture capital,
to working on free
operating software.
And we will have a very wide
ranging conversation, and then
we will invite all of our
panelists onstage, and throw
the floor open to questions.
MARK SHUTTLEWORTH:
Thanks, Chrystia.
Chrystia: I wanted to
start, June, with you.
And what I really wanted
to ask you was, your work
experience as a woman.
Engaging with these
development issues.
What is the special role that
women have in development, and
in using technology
for development?
JUNE ARUNGA: I don't really
feel confident to say
what the special role for
women in development is.
But as far as my experience
goes, I would say it gives me,
people give me slack to say
things because I'm a girl.
So it helps me get away with
stuff, where it is politically
incorrect in certain audiences
to say certain things.
And also being African also
kind of gives me some slack,
because they say, she must know
what she's talking about.
So I have to be more
disciplined, to actually do
the homework, because I
can get away with stuff.
But I don't know if that
answers your question.
But as far as the Grameen
experience goes, I think that
tells a story more about
women's role in development.
As far as my experience getting
engaged in these things,
that's a very personal thing.
I was just curious why some
countries are poor, why some
wealthy, why doesn't my country
seem to work right, and I
decided to go out and try and
understand how the world works.
Chrystia: And Mark, I wanted to ask
you, one of your goals, both as
a philanthropist and as an
investor, is to find ways that
African companies can work
on technology on a
global platform.
Do you think that's possible,
and what particular areas do
you think African companies
might be best at?
MARK SHUTTLEWORTH: No, I take
a completely different view.
The first thing I would say is
that we shouldn't have the
assumption that African
companies can't fare well on
the global stage, in
any kind of field.
And secondly, I'd ask the
question, where are African
companies going to be most
likely to be successful.
Technology's not necessarily a
big driver for me in Africa.
When I invest in Africa,
technology isn't from what I'm
looking for, except in the way
that the technology can
unleash the real potential of
people that are there.
The mobile phone example is an
extraordinary one in terms of
unlocking underlying economic
potential that was blocked.
Or media is another example of
ways in which technology is
helping to bring out the best
of what's actually right there,
in front of us, in Africa.
But I don't necessarily
see Africa as the
next Silicon Valley.
Chrystia: It's not the
next Bangalore?
MARK SHUTTLEWORTH: Just because
I'm fascinated by technology
doesn't necessarily mean I
would assume that we should try
and recreate that in Africa.
We should just look for the
right magical mix of real
potential and possibility.
Chrystia: And how important
is education?
We've heard from Sanjiv
about the role that the really
excellent elite Indian higher
educational institutions have
placed in that country's
phenomenal transformation.
How important is that in Africa
and at what level do you
think it's most important?
Higher education?
Primary education?
MARK SHUTTLEWORTH: You couldn't
ask for better examples in
India and Korea, for example,
of countries that understood
the connection between an
investment in education, an
investment in science and
technology, and the economic
returns that you can expect to
see over the next generations
from those investments.
So that's a message that I
try and carry to Africa
as strongly as possible.
But that investment in
education has to go to together
with a real investment in
economic potential, because
education without jobs, without
an excitement around jobs
within the continent, or within
wherever the focus of your
investment is, just creates a
community of people who will
be exported, we have
expatriate Africans.
And so the bulk of my
investment, again, is in
economic activity of all forms.
And then education is really be
a catalyst to try to make sure
that there's a pool of talent
to drive that forward.
Chrystia: June, your
views on education?
JUNE ARUNGA: I think that
education is important, but I
have seen that where people
have been allowed to engage in
commerce, and given the support
structures such as, not just
infrastructure, but even
Telephony people who have never
gone to school have managed to
pull themselves out of poverty
and provide education for
subsequent generations.
So for me a big, Africa had
this one foot in the Middle
Ages, and one at the edge
of the 21st century.
Both educated and uneducated
people share in the Middle Ages
experience, where many of them
don't have access to
electricity and so on, and both
educated and uneducated are
sharing this edge of 21st
century, using telephones for
doing banking, and
so and so forth.
That world was all changed,
overnight, by the stroke of
a pen, when the government
decided to allow the private
sector to provide Telephony.
Chrystia: Which government?
JUNE ARUNGA: The Kenyan
government, for example.
And so by law people who were
relegated to living the Middle
Ages life, and by the stroke of
a pen, it was changed
overnight, without the
education changing, and so on.
And so for me, the freedom the
governments have in their
hands, the power to give the
people to just engage with the
rest of the world, is primary.
MARK SHUTTLEWORTH: So if I can
define correctly what you're
saying, is you don't have to
wait to have a highly
educated workforce.
You have to unleash what's
there, and make the rules so
that they can effectively
empower themselves, and then
build an education system
around over times.
Is that--?
JUNE ARUNGA: To
reiterate what Sanjiv
said, I see poverty and its
manifestations as just demand
for goods and services, a lot
of which our governments have
just turned illegal for
anybody to be part of.
It's illegal to send text
messaging in Ethiopia,
for example.
How ridiculous is that.
Western Union is banned there.
Even in South Africa, kind of.
So there are certain goods and
services that people need, and
we have political systems
that have banned them.
And so they can educate all
they like, but you don't have
the ability to do with your
mind what you would like
to do on the market.
So you see these opportunities,
you see ways to make
money, but you can't.
Chrystia: So really, do you think
the first, most important thing
is actually about getting the
right government structures,
at least to a certain extent?
At least to stop preventing
people from doing things?
JUNE ARUNGA: That
is so primary.
The difference between
Mauritius why Mauritius was up
there, and why we had, I think
that software so cool.
I really want to have
my hands on it.
Because there's a caricature
of the poor person
that has been made--
Chrystia: We didn't plan this
in advance, by the way.
JUNE ARUNGA: That it's so hard
to explain in many words, and
that software just
explained it.
But the difference between
Mauritius up there and Sierra
Leone down there, is just the
government allowing
people to trade.
That whole free-trade thing.
Is removing these laws in place
that make it so difficult, for
businesspeople, whether they're
local or foreign, to meet the
demands that people have.
Chrystia: And why do you
think there are so
many bad governments?
Are there elites that benefit
from these laws that block
wider progress, or is it
just lack of understanding?
JUNE ARUNGA: I think that's
a really complex issue.
There's a historical
context to it.
It's a very complex question,
I don't know if I'm--
MARK SHUTTLEWORTH: The really
important thing to realize as
an investor in Africa, is
that you have the choice of
regulatory regimes, right?
It's not like China, where
you have the advantage
of a common market.
A huge, quite diverse
underlying, but fundamentally
a common market.
In Africa, you have a
tremendous ability to choose
where you direct your
investments, and so what
regulatory regime will
be working on that.
And increasingly, we're seeing
competition between African
countries, trying to attract
that investment, trying to
understand what rules they
need to create to unlock
their potential, and to
attract investments.
So this perception of Africa as
a place of institutional bad
government is quite mistaken.
It's a place of very
diverse governments.
And you can make
it work for you.
So Sanjiv
was saying that he's able to do
business in Africa without
having to break ethical rules,
or formal government
rules, right?
Chrystia: And which country right
now do you think is the
best one to invest in?
MARK SHUTTLEWORTH: Botswana,
for example, is a great example
of a country that is a small
African country that
is beautifully run.
There are things that
we can criticize about
them, without a doubt.
They have a horrendous
HIV infection rate.
But it has had a stable
democratic government for a
long time, a very open economy,
and the people have benefited
tremendously from it.
Mauritia is another example.
Basically setting itself itself
up as a conduit for investment
into the continent.
And so you certainly can find
non-obvious places to go to
establish infrastructure,
establish a brand, and so on.
Chrystia: What's the worst place?
Is there a place you
wouldn't touch right now?
MARK SHUTTLEWORTH: No, because
I fundamentally believe that
economic engagement is the
right way to bring
about change.
And it's when you when
you create a policy of--
Chrystia: As a businessman, though.
What, maybe I'll rephrase.
What would be your
least desirable--
MARK SHUTTLEWORTH: I absolutely
invested in Zimbabwe.
It's a country with enormous
potential that's just north
of South Africa's borders.
and whatever, it has tragic and
appalling governments right
now, but that will change.
And so I have to believe that
there will be a reversion
to the mean, and
possibility there.
Chrystia: I just want to ask June,
will you take on my question
of what is the worst country?
A place that you wouldn't
advise people to
do business in?
JUNE ARUNGA: I don't know.
I think business people are
most in touch with the
realities of things on the
ground, more than
pundits like me.
But I think Zimbabwe is
scary at the moment.
And so unpredictable.
I would say it sounds like a
very risky place to to try
and own something, anything,
forget a business.
MARK SHUTTLEWORTH: It is, but
if you think about this, in the
business world we have evolved
tools to deal with risk.
And once you understand that,
once you realize that the place
where value is created is the
place that changes
the greatest.
This picture that was on the
screen here shows you that the
inevitable migration of people
in Africa is along that coast
to the top left corner.
Folks in Africa have exactly
the same aspirations, exactly
the same human potential.
They will make that journey.
And so if you're investing
there right now, you're
going to be carried
with that momentum.
We're starting to see very big
global companies discover this,
and discover that all the rules
of unlocking local talent and
so on, apply just as much to
Africa as they do elsewhere.
I'm very confident in it as
an investment destination.
Chrystia: June, you've done some
work, I think, on immigration.
What role do you think that
immigrants are playing, and are
we seeing some of that money
and knowledge feeding back in
the form of remittances,
and knowledge exchanges.
JUNE ARUNGA: I think the
primary role that immigration
plays is actually manifesting
the competition between legal
assistance, basically.
What people choose as
a place with rules
they'd like to under.
We're seeing the biggest
migration in the
world, basically.
I'd like to see that done
with the [? software ?]
that was shown earlier.
But if there was an arrow,
the fattest one would
be going to America.
And people can say whatever
they like about America, but
people make this choice.
They hear it from their
relatives or whatever, it's by
word of mouth, but they made
the choice, and they moved
there, they decide to
take their brains there.
One of the path things that
fascinated me when I was young,
was that I'd have relatives who
had PhDs stay in Kenya, be
unemployed 10 years, have my
mother, who was just a civil
servant, have to support them.
But the moment they went to
America, whether as illegal
immigrants or as legal
immigrants, everything changed.
This person, same brain, just
crosses over there, and
suddenly they blossom,
and make a ton of money.
And I wanted to find out
what that was about.
So one big role is that it
shows within Africa, or as
people move to other places,
just like the movement of
capitol, where people find most
conducive to create value.
And secondly, I think that even
though people complain about
brain drain, I would say that
if you can move your brilliant
brain from point A to point to
B, and earn enough money to
actually feed your family back
home, send them to school, it
makes more sense then all of
you staying in this one place,
where nothing is going
for you, and all dying.
So I think that people being
able to move to other places
and be able to support their
families is very valuable.
Those remittances, money used
to start businesses, that
money, it's a lifeline.
So it's a great way for
governments to compete,
and people are forced
to think, what's wrong?
Why we losing people?
And probably it's a drive
over [UNINTELLIGIBLE]
that way.
Chrystia: So that's really
interesting, you think this
concern that we're sometimes
hearing, for example, around
the NHS, that bringing African
medical staff to Britain is
really quite unfair to the
people it's addressed at.
JUNE ARUNGA: When African
doctors and nurses started
moving, I will just say
Kenyans, primarily, because
that's what I've researched,
when they started moving, the
Kenyan government was forced
to ask what they were doing
wrong to lose those doctors.
It forced a lot of reforms
within our healthcare policy,
and now doctors have been given
more freedom to be able to
staff private hospitals if they
want, licensing is much easier
to partner with foreign
doctors, they wanted to use
better technology, they wanted
to have access to models of
doing their work that they
would find beneficial, and that
would meet market demand.
And that would not have
happened it they just
weren't able to leave.
So I think that people's
hearts always remain at
home, even when they leave.
Especially if you're a doctor,
you know how much good you
could do, after especially
you've come out here, and
seeing just what's available,
and so on, and so forth.
And when you can be a part of
that conversation, because
somebody is now realizing that
their policies are what sent
you off, then you have a chance
to then make your voice.
So I think that the
constituency of doctors who
have moved out have found a
very vital, the industry
association that's forming is
a very powerful lobby for
reform after they leave.
I think that's a really
fascinating perspective on it.
We now have, we had a red
light, we have actually ten
minutes before our session
is meant to end at 1:45.
My one key duty that I've
been charged with is ending
promptly, but I'm really
pleased that we do have 10
minutes for questions
and answers.
So if the other panelists
could come join us.
And please, now's your
chance to ask questions.
Only ten minutes of these
incredibly fascinating people
with diverse experiences.
If you could, when you ask a
question, please direct it at
a specific person, or maybe
at two specific people.
If everyone tries to answer,
we won't get through more
than half a question.
Please!
And if you could maybe go to
the mikes it'll be easier
for me to recognize people.
AUDIENCE: Hi, I'm Martin
Varsavsky from FON.
I have a question about Africa,
and it's, do you think Africans
see themselves as Africans?
Chrystia: And who's the
question directed towards?
AUDIENCE: Well, whoever
wants to answer.
Chrystia: OK, I'll try
Mark and June.
Mark, you want to go first?
MARK SHUTTLEWORTH: Sure.
I do think that there's
a strong sense of
African identity.
Obviously in the last two
generations, there's also
been a layer of national
identities and divisions
imposed upon that.
But I think that doesn't
penetrate very deeply
into the psyche.
So I would look for it in 100,
150 years, and say Africa will
act and operate as
a single entity.
Chrystia: June?
JUNE ARUNGA: I kind of
think differently.
Maybe-- I feel more African
when I'm engaging with the
outside world, but I find it
easier to relate to people from
outside than with certain
Africans, because when I did
the journey from Cairo to
Capetown, the diversity
of Africa really hit me.
A lot of these people
are just, they're way
more different than--
Chrystia: We are?
JUNE ARUNGA: Yeah, I think if
we had that software, and we
could show, you would see how
there are ways in which people
in England and people in
certain African countries share
more in common than people
in one African country
feel with the others.
And another thing is
they don't travel much
between the countries.
It's very diverse.
I find it hard to
explain it, but--
Chrystia: OK, Professor
[? Rossing ?]
wanted to add something--
PROFESSOR ROSSING: Some of the
African scholars that I work
with say, I long for the
day when people stop
writing about Africa.
They feel Africans of course,
but they want to show
the diversity within it.
You take the war in Darfur, you
take the AIDS epidemic in
Botswana, you take government
situation of Ivory Coast, you
always take the worst of each
part and make it into
the unity of Africa.
You don't take the economy of
Ghana, the HIV, 0.7% of
Senegal, lower than United
States, the wonderful
government situation of
Botswana which you've talked
about, which is good, and
all the positive things
which are happening.
I think Africa is the
continent that have done
best in the last 50 years.
They started many countries
from a pre-medieval situation,
and they're already way
through the 19th century.
They've covered most distance
in the last 50 years, and
is really promising what
they'll be able to do.
And Europe in the middle of
the 19th century, they had a
terrible amount of war, you
know, and civil wars, and
all these sort of things.
This continent has been
the worst for that.
And then there's a lot
of talent, especially
a lot of young talent,
which you would see.
And I would just add that what
I see, also, African colleagues
of mine who work on government
sectors, the government now had
to catch up with this
economic growth.
Now we have 5% to 6% economic
growth in Africa, now our
macrocredit's working, now we
need to get all kids
into public schools.
We need to use extra resources,
we have to match up with
the infrastructure with
governments, better port
function, and then the economy
will flourish even more.
So I see a lot of positive
things happening.
I worked in Mozambique.
It went from a disaster to a
very positive situation today.
Chrystia: Please.
AUDIENCE: I'm Richard, I have a
question for Sanjiv, as the
business leader in this group.
Do you buy the notion that
business, taking steps that
spread well-being, that that is
so welcomed by your customer,
that it is an appropriate and a
valuable contributor's
shareholder value.
So can you engage in
multimillion dollar programs
that don't sell more mobile
phone contracts, because
they're good things and your
customers will welcome them?
SANJIV: Well, as a business
leader, you're accountable
to three constituencies.
Your shareholders, your
customers, are your employees.
If you tilt the balance in the
favor of any one of those,
the equation gets awkward.
So you have to balance
all three of them.
But I'll speak personally
as an individual, if I
put my business hat away.
I think we have no choice but
to make a difference in Africa.
We have no choice but to make
a difference in parts of
China, parts of India.
If we don't step up to in this
generation, when we have the
wherewithal, we have the
technology, we have the
resources, then we will miss
a massive opportunity.
Africa is not one continent.
We call it a continent, we
try to do a paintbrush
approach to Africa.
India is not one, China
is not homogeneous.
I think as corporations, and
we're going to see a new
generation of corporations come
up, that are as committed to
the social cause as they are
committed to the
economic cause.
And hopefully I can do one
of those one of these days.
Because that is the kind of a
commitment we all need to make.
It is not about charity.
It is about taking a part of
the family we are all apart of
in this world and trying to
do what is right for that.
And that takes a lot more than
what shows on my balance sheet,
or what shows on my
earnings per share.
It takes a level of personal
commitment, and say, what
are we really all about?
And I think there's our
chance to step up.
And I'm not speaking as an
orange person, I'm speaking
as an individual.
I think we must do that.
Chrystia: Sanjiv, you're meant
to be starting a new
venture in June.
Could it be along these lines?
SANJIV: Let's watch the space.
AUDIENCE: I'd just like to come
back to David Miliband's point
earlier today about the
principle of creating a
culture where everybody can.
What do you do in a country
like Zimbabwe, where the
government doesn't allow you to
participate in this principle?
Sanjiv, maybe.
SANJIV: Look, I think Zimbabwe
is, we were talking about
Botswana, Zimbabwe is a great
country that's been
totally messed up.
Thanks to the government.
But it is a great country, we
need to ensure that the people
communicate with the
rest of the world.
I read a lot about Zimbabwe.
I think it's a wonderful
opportunity for somebody to go
in and ensure we get every
citizen in Zimbabwe connected
with everybody in this room.
AUDIENCE: And how
do you do that?
SANJIV: How do you do that?
Let's for a minute assume we
could take every school, every
hospital, every street corner,
we could provide connectivity
to the internet.
And every citizen had
ability to get on a
mobile phone and talk.
That will change the country.
That will change the
ground reality.
And what does it take to do it?
Not a heck of a lot.
Not a lot of financial
commitment.
This is a few changes, and I
think people miss the point.
If you just say that we are
going to provide 500 internet
kiosks in five major
cities of Zimbabwe.
And anybody could go in any
time of the day and get
connected to the internet.
And people start reading
what is happening in the
other parts of Zimbabwe.
That most of the citizens that
are living there have no idea.
You will transform the country.
And I think that's the
kind stuff that's needed.
Zimbabwe was a great economy.
It got messed up.
We just need to bring them
back into the fold of
the rest of the world.
MARK SHUTTLEWORTH: I think many
folks don't realize that the
government of Zimbabwe has been
elected through series
of election victories.
And while those victories
were controversial, they
weren't outright frauds.
And so the question has to be
asked, really, how do we
convince the people of
Zimbabwe to express their
own will differently?
And there's a certain amount
of repression and so on.
But the biggest thing I think
that we need to show the folks
of Zimbabwe, is that other
African countries, voting for
their own leaders, are getting
very different results.
And so what you're really
describing is the process of
connecting people and showing
them that the lives that they
they lead are a consequence
of their choices.
And that other countries
from similar backgrounds,
similar circumstances, .
are getting great results by
making different choices.
If we do that, Zimbabwe will
change extremely quickly, and
the underlying potential
will come back.
Chrystia: I'm a journalist, so I
guess my job is to be the
professional cynic among this
group of very optimistic,
energetic world transformers.
But no one has said anything
about Eastern Europe or the the
former Soviet Union, which
is my area of expertise.
So I will quickly tell
one story that backs
up Sanjiv's point.
I reported on the Orange
Revolution in Ukraine, and I
spent a lot of time talking to
those student demonstrators who
sat out in the square in the
Maidan Nezalezhnosti, and
overthrew what was actually one
of the region's more repressive
authoritarian regimes.
And I talked to them a little
bit about how they organized.
Because actually the Orange
Revolution was the culmination
of maybe nine months of
regional protests that had
started of in smaller towns
and just mounted and
mounted and mounted.
And I said, I mean, how did you
guys have these protests when
the cops could just pick you
up, and beat you up, or they
beheaded a journalist, I mean,
these we're not nice guys.
And they told me this great
story about the internet and
telephones coming together,
which is what they would do,
and this is a technique they
learned from the Serbian
student protesters,
whom they met online.
Was, have your little local
protest, and if your friends
get picked up by the local
police and thrown in jail, send
out a message online, basically
to all Ukrainians, saying, our
friend Igor has been arrested,
he's in the Kremenchuk
jail, and this is the
switchboard number.
Phone it now.
And through the pure harassment
of these local police stations,
which would then get thousands
of calls for the next two,
four, six, eight, ten hours,
they said 80% of time, the kids
would just throw their hands
up, the kids hadn't really done
anything wrong, and
just let them go.
So that for me but a great
story about how very simple
technology-enabled forms of
protest can be effective.
On that note, I'm afraid
we probably have to go.
We've run out of time.
If I could just say two things,
first of all, we have an hour
and fifteen minutes for
lunch, the next session
is absolutely fantastic.
It's called, Let
Me Entertain Me.
I can't think of anything
more thrilling after lunch.
It's going to be hosted by Dr.
Patrick Dixon, who is a noted
Futurist, and, I am asked to
let you know, one of the
twenty most influential
business thinkers alive.
So I'm sure the other
nineteen are here as well.
And before people do you go for
lunch, could I just ask
everyone to pause for thirty
seconds and say thank you very
much to our fantastic
group of people.
