- Good afternoon everyone
and thank you so much
for joining us today, we
apologize for the slight delay.
My name is Michelle Feldman
and I'm the State Campaigns Director
for the Innocence Project.
And we know this is a
tough time for everybody
so we really appreciate you
taking time out of your day
to join us and be part
of this conversation.
We have a great panel today
to talk about exoneree
compensation in Florida
and the impact of COVID-19 on exonerees
and innocent people who
are still behind bars.
So, first we'll talk to Clemente Aguirre
who was exonerated after
spending 14 years in prison
ten of them on death row
for a double murder in Seminole County
that he didn't commit.
And Clemente has been denied compensation
like so many other Florida exonerees.
We also have Seth Miller who's a director
of the Innocence Project of Florida
and he's been on the front lines
fighting for the innocent since 2003.
And, finally, we have
Representative Jamie Grant
who represents Hillsborough
and Pinellas Counties
in the Florida House of Representatives.
And he's also the chair
of the House Criminal Justice Committee.
He's been one of our biggest supporters
on innocence issues in
the state legislature
and he's going to share some tips on
the best ways to communicate
with your state lawmakers.
So, first I'll start
with a little overview
about Florida's compensation
law, and then I'll give you
an update about what happened
during Florida's legislative session
and what the next steps are.
So, Florida's one of 35 states
that has a compensation law
for the wrongfully
convicted, and these laws are
supposed to provide a
quick and efficient way for
the state to repair the damage
of a wrongful conviction.
But, unfortunately, that's not the way
that it's been working in Florida.
The law was passed in 2008
and it provides $50,000
for each year that an innocent person
was wrongfully incarcerated.
And the person has to
prove to a judge that
they're actually innocent of the crime.
But there are so many
restrictions in the law
that it's excluded most of the people
who are supposed to benefit from it.
So, there have been
more than 30 Floridians
exonerated since 2008, and only 4 of them
have been compensated under the law.
So it's pretty obvious
that it's not working
the way it's supposed to, and
exonerees are being forced
to rebuild their lives from scratch
without any financial assistance.
And Clemente's going to talk to us more
about what that's like.
But taxpayers are also suffering
because if an exoneree
doesn't get state compensation
the alternative is to file a
federal civil rights law suit
and these cases take years to resolve
and taxpayers are paying
the cost of litigation.
And even though it's really
hard for exonerees to win
when they do, there is no limit
on the amount of awards that they can get.
So really, the best solution
for everyone is to fix the law
and that's what we were trying to do
during the Florida session this year.
We advocated for a bill
that would address two major problems.
So the first problem is the
so-called clean hands bar
which excludes exonerees who
had any unrelated convictions
from getting compensation.
Florida is the only state in the country
with this clean hands restriction
because it's so inherently unfair.
The fact that a person
has a criminal record
makes them more likely to
be wrongfully convicted
in the first place.
Because they become one
of the usual suspects.
And just to highlight
how problematic it is
we have a client who was
barred from being compensated
for the 25 years that he
was wrongfully convicted
because during that time
he escaped from prison
but he never should have been
in prison in the first place.
So, the clean hands bar
was really controversial
when it passed in the original law
and it's time to remove
it once and for all.
The second problem is the filing deadline
it just doesn't mirror
the exoneration process.
So, there's really two
steps to exonerate someone;
first, the judge overturns
their conviction
and second, the prosecutor gets to decide
to either dismiss the charges,
or to retry the person.
And in Clemente's case,
the Florida Supreme Court
overturned his conviction in 2016
with really strong evidence,
including DNA that showed
that he didn't commit the crime
but the prosecutor decided to retry him.
And the current law says
that you have to file for
compensation within three months
of the date that the
conviction was overturned
but at that point, Clemente
was still behind bars
as he was waiting for his new trial.
So, the filing deadline
needs to be fixed to reflect
the actual exoneration process.
So, this year here's what happened
in the legislative session.
The good news is that
we got closer than ever
to fixing the law, and that's
because people in Florida
made hundreds of calls
to their state lawmakers
and we really appreciate all your support
it made a huge difference.
We also had some great
legislative champions.
The bill passed six
committees unanimously
which is really a record,
there was not a single no vote.
But, ultimately, the bill got combined
with other criminal justice issues
and that really led to the full House
and the full Senate running
out of time to pass it
before the session adjourned on March 2nd.
So, it's really disappointing we didn't
get over the finish line,
but, the good news is
we have a solid foundation
to build support on.
And the next session
starts in March of 2021
but now is really when the work gets done
it's the best time to
start working with your
state lawmakers and start
talking to them about this issue.
And 2020 is an election year
so state lawmakers are
especially concerned about
what issues matter to their constituents
and we'll get into that
in more detail with
Representative Grant, but,
here's just a few tools
for connecting with your lawmakers;
so, first you'll see that
we have a link on Facebook
where you can sign up
for alerts on the bill
and you can be directly connected to your
state representative and state senator
through phone, email, or Twitter.
You could also look up who your
senator and representative is
on the Florida legislatures website.
It's really helpful to
know if your senators
and representatives are
on one of the committees
that will be voting on the bill
which, again, you could see
by clicking on that link.
Another tip is to get started early
the real successful bills
have momentum well ahead
of the beginning of session,
and there are committees
that have interim meetings before March
before the actual session begins.
And, finally, the more personalized
that you make your outreach
the more impact that it will have.
So phone calls and in-person meetings
are the most effective.
It might be difficult to
do in-person right now
but certainly phone calls would work.
And you really want to
remind your lawmaker
that you're a constituent
and you care about
the exoneree compensation issue
and, you know, make
that personal connection
about why you care about the issue.
And ask them how they're going to
work to support that effort in 2021.
So, now I'm going to turn to Clemente
who could talk more about the importance
of fixing the compensation
law, and the challenges
that exonerees are facing
during the COVID-19 crises.
And, just a introduction
about Clemente's case;
Clemente was exonerated
in November of 2018
he spent 14 years in prison
and 10 years on death row
for a double homicide in Seminole County
when he was innocent.
Clemente's currently living
in Tampa, and he's made
several trips to Tallahassee
to advocate for different
innocence issues.
So, Clemente, let's get a
little bit into your case.
When you heard the guilty
verdict, and you found out
that you were sentenced
to death for a crime
that you didn't commit, what
did you feel in that moment?
- I couldn't believe it,
you know, I am innocent.
I was innocent then
and there was no real evidence against me
everything was circumstantial.
And I had so much faith in
the system that I thought
the truth will come out
then, but it didn't.
- And what was it like to be on death row?
- (laughs) Wow (mumbles).
You don't have the
opportunity of education
you don't have the opportunity to work
they can hide you from the world
family, friends, lawyers.
They just leaving you
right there, forgotten
just to be executed.
- And then, how were
you finally exonerated?
- DNA evidence sent to
the Innocent Project
I was able to test the DNA.
And the results came out like
I was just saying all along.
My DNA was not found in the crime scene
it was somebody else
and we also find out that this
person whose DNA they found
had been placed on the video
tape and to multiple people.
- Wow.
And the Florida Supreme Court
overturned your conviction in 2016
most people think that that's
the end and you're exonerated
but that's not what happened in your case.
Could you explain what happened next?
- No, almost in every case it's the same
I mean, the state certainly
has the power to appeal
or retrial you for that same crime.
So, you know, prosecutor decided to
try me for the crime again.
So, even though I was
considered a scapegoat of
the crime to this person
I was still going to trial for it.
- And, that really ties into
why you were denied compensation
the law says that you
have 90 days to file
starting from the date that the court
overturns the conviction,
but at that point you were
still in jail because the prosecutor
was going to try you for the same crime.
And, finally, the prosecutor
did dismiss the charges
two years later, and at that point
you filed for compensation,
but the judge was forced
to deny it because it was too late.
What did that feel like,
what was your reaction
when you found out that you
couldn't be compensated?
- I was very disappointed.
I mean, like I said, I
had read the statute too
and it also says
that you are at trial for the same crime
being considered a suspect of it
you cannot apply for compensation.
Even the judge say that.
They leave it for interpretation
and I don't know where
to take it from here.
You know, I don't know
how to take it from here.
I was really, really disappointed
because I had nothing to stop it.
- And what did you think
when you found out that
almost no Florida exonerees
have been compensated
under the law?
- I'm very surprised, disappointed.
Because, I'm thinking you write
a certain statute in the law
it should be to be helping
this particular set of people
or group of people.
And yet, I find out that
only 1/3 of the people
is being compensated,
and the other 2/3 hasn't.
So what good is having to have a law
and it doesn't help the
people it's supposed to help?
- Right.
And, so, you've just got your freedom
a little over a year ago, and
now you're being quarantined.
What does that feel like?
- I'm not going to lie to
you, it brings you back
to the place that you were into back then
when you were locked up for real.
I guess it's because all the mental issues
we exonerees have, to be there for so long
in isolation, right?
But, it brings you back to
the mindset of vulnerability
and sadness, that you cannot
see the people you want to see
when you want to see them.
- Right.
And, what would you say
our additional challenges
that exonerees like you who
haven't been compensated
are facing in light of
the COVID-19 pandemic?
Being as it were already tough
how do you think that this
pandemic is going to effect
you know, wrongfully
convicted people like you?
- Well, a few points on that
a lot of people get out of
jail without nothing, right?
And they're looking for a job
after they've been exonerated.
But if an employer runs your
name, or Googled your name
and an appeal that you were
convicted for a violet crime
it's very unlikely that
they give you a job
even though you've been exonerated for it.
You rely on some kind of generosity
you know, help from family,
friends, organizations
but everybody's struggling
now, a lot of people's been
laying off from work, or
they are not allowed to work
because they have to be in a certain
a set up there's a lot of
people going to be close by.
And we exonerees have to
be really, really careful
more than anybody I guess
because we do not have health insurance.
Once you get out of jail you
get out without nothing, right?
So, going to a hospital
or something like that
they will provide you with a lot of debt
that you don't want.
And, like I said, many
exonerees already have
health issues prior to this,
and we're just coming up
with this more, so, we have
to be really, really careful
in what we do.
- And, this question is from a reporter
at the Orlando Sentinel,
and related to that;
after spending so many years in prison
what are your concerns
about the COVID-19 impact
on Florida's prisons?
And have you been talking
to any of your friends
who are still in prison, and
what are you hearing from them?
- I have two friends, we write each other.
I make sure that I'm able to write them
but, to your first part of the question
I'm going to be honest with
you, when I first thought of it
because I was there and I know how
the medical system work in prison
I was really sad.
Because I know as many
I myself went through some minor thing
that becomes so big because they
don't want to give any attention to it.
Hepatitis C, they don't want
to give you treatment for it
so, I can not imagine
what the people in there
will go through with being
so close by together.
Because prison in Florida has
a lot of people in it, right?
So, I have received a
letter from a friend
he told me three people
had died on death row.
I don't know exactly who.
They didn't want to
say what they died for
they just wrote that they died.
So, I'm very concerned
and very sad about them
I praise God to all of them,
because I know the system
that is not the best that we can have.
- Right.
And, on a more hopeful note,
and a little happier note
how do you feel that so
many people in Florida
reached out to their state
lawmakers and asked them
to support fixing the
compensation law this year?
- I'm very, very proud
of my Floridian citizens
because, you know, it has
taken a lot of effort
I didn't know how much effort
and work it takes from people.
I've been going to
Tallahassee, like, seven times
I have been going up there to talk
to legislators and senators.
And, you know, when I talked in college
I had to speak with law
students, I had talked to
attorneys, public defenders
and senators, in the same way.
And everybody is, like, very surprising
that the state of Florida
has so many exoneration
or so many wrong convictions.
So they see something wrong in the law
and they're trying to fix
it, and I'm very, very proud
and I think that if we
could keep the hard work
we're going to make it there.
- Definitely, and that's
a really hopeful message.
And, just the last thing
I want to ask you is
hopefully people who are listening today
will be a part of the effort and contact
their state lawmakers and
ask them to fix the law.
What do you want them
to know about your story
and what do you want them
to take from your story
and convey to their lawmakers?
- Well, you know
a lot of people don't
have that knowledge of
what really is going on
in the prison system
and when they hear my story
they're really surprised of
what is going on in the system.
And they ask themselves,
"How it's possible that we
"have wrongly convicted these people
"but yet don't compensate them?"
I mean, the state of Florida
what they do to wrongly convicted
people is torture, right?
There's no other word to describe it.
You are not just taking
a birthday from me
a hug, a few tears, or a few Christmas'.
You've taken from us life as we know it
no longer things are the way they were
when we arrived there
and by the time we get out,
and we get out without nothing.
So it should be a compensation
you wrongly convict somebody,
you should make it right
trying to make it right
it shouldn't be that
difficult to make it right.
- Absolutely.
And we have one last question, quickly
from Sarah from Fort Lauderdale,
who's joining us today
and she asked, "Did you
have a public defender
"or a private counsel
at your original trial?"
- A public defender.
- Okay.
Well thank you so much,
Clemente, and I'm sure
we'll get more questions at the end.
But now I'm going to turn to Seth Miller
Seth is the director of the
Innocence Project of Florida
which he's founded in 2003
and he has been working for years
to change the compensation law.
And he's also seeing the
impact of COVID-19 on clients
who are innocent and
are still behind bars.
So, Seth, most Florida
exonerees have been barred
from getting compensation
what has it been like for you
to have to tell your clients
that after all the years they lost
they can't be compensated
because of the deadline
or the clean hands provision?
- Thanks, Michelle, so many of our clients
have been imprisoned for 10
or 20 or 30 or even 40 years
for crimes they didn't commit.
And in order to get through
that kind of longterm incarceration
as an innocent person
person has a lot of
struggles, a lot of fights
in order to finally find that vindication.
And the hoke is that,
when they are vindicated
that that is the end of the
struggle, that they can move on
and have a good, long,
healthy life in freedom.
And so it's very difficult to tell them
that after all those
many years of struggles
there is still more struggle,
more legal struggle
to try to get the kind of
recompense that they deserve.
And it's really difficult for them
'cause, you know, a lot of
them have been in prison
for so long, particularly
the older individuals
either because they have health problems
or because of their age don't
have the ability to work
they haven't built up those
Social Security credits
so they can get Social Security
when they become a senior citizen.
And they're really reliant,
or would be reliant
on that compensation to help them
get through the rest of the
years that they have on earth
and find some stability.
So, it's a really hard thing to hear
but I will say that most of our clients
far from being angry, are
good-natured about it
and do like Clemente does
with trying to come to Tallahassee
and fight for that compensation
not just for themselves
but for the rest of the folks
who have been exonerated
and all those people
who will be exonerated.
- And, what do you see as the impact
that not being compensated
has on exonerees
and what do you think it's
going to be like, then
in this new world we're
living in with COVID-19?
- Well, first, you know, our goals
at the Innocence Project of Florida
and at many innocence
organizations, are not just to get
innocent people out of prison
but to also help them
transition back into a society
that's totally different from the one
they left years before.
And in order to have a good,
solid, successful transition
our goal is to create stability.
Health stability, you
know, make sure they can
put food on the table, family stability
but also financial stability,
because we know when people
have that kind of instability
it creates all kind of struggles
that leads to undermining
them having the success
after they're released from
their wrongful incarceration.
So certainly, having compensation
will help in doing that.
Now, this is particularly acute
in a time of this coronavirus, COVID-19
because, you know, our
clients that can work
who haven't been compensated,
some of them aren't working.
Like, for example, we have a client
who is a long distance trucker
we helped him get his CDL license
and he as now has a very good paying job
moving cargo all around
the state of Florida
and around the country, and he
is not able to get the hours
and have the work that
he had before COVID-19
and he's someone who has been barred
by the clean hands provision
from being compensated.
So there's a direct nexus between
you know, the confluence
between the pandemic
and his lack of compensation
and what now is a good bit of instability.
We have a client Dean McKee, who
you know, opened a tattoo shop
within a year of him being exonerated
and was really starting
to build his business
but now in the era of
COVID-19, his shop is closed
like many other businesses,
because he can't see clients
in order to tattoo them
he doesn't have a way to make money
and therefore doesn't have a way to pay
for his health insurance, which makes it
all the more problematic if
he were to contract the virus.
So, these are really,
really tough times for folks
who have been exonerated,
even for the ones
that have been doing well
since they've been exonerated.
- And, Seth, you also have
innocent clients who are
still behind bars, and you're
in the process of working
to get them out.
What has it been like for
them, and how is COVID-19
impacting them in prison?
- Well, it's very, very, very complicated
we represent about 30 people in prison
around the state of
Florida who all have viable
claims of innocence, and some of them
are near the end of that process.
They're ready to get out of prison
but the courts have
essentially been closed
because of COVID-19.
We just, while we were
on this Facebook Live
we just found out that
the Florida Supreme Court
has suspended all proceedings until June.
And so, our clients
both are concerned about
resolving their cases and getting out
but also concerned that in
the time that they remain in
awaiting this pandemic to
abate, that they're going
to get sick and not have an opportunity
to vindicate themselves,
you know, in this life.
And I think that's a
serious concern for anyone
who knows anything about
how prisons are operated
and how close people are together
and how many people are there.
It's a concern both for the
folks who are prisoners there
as well for the staff
and the administration
who work in the prison.
- And, of course we
know inside the prisons
it's almost impossible to social distance
there's not really access
to basic cleaning materials
and soap, and all the things that
you know, we're advised
to do to stay healthy.
So I know that the
Innocence Project of Florida
recently signed a letter to the governor
asking for the Department of
Corrections to take some steps
and respond to COVID-19.
What do you think that the
Department of Corrections
should be doing?
- It's true, Michelle, we did
last week, issue a letter
along with our friends
down at the Florida Association
of Criminal Defense Lawyers
to Governor DeSantis
and Secretary of Department
of Corrections, Inch
And we laid out a bunch
of facts about COVID-19
and the threat to both
prisoners as well as staff
in these facilities.
And we provided 15 recommendations
for what can be done to
prevent the spread of the virus
and mitigate its impact on the people
who are in these facilities.
And it really focuses on three things;
the first is allowing for
release of individuals
who either are in for
very low level crimes
this is both in jails and prisons
people who are very old and
have certain medical conditions
providing more access to
conditional medical release
and allowing people who're very close
to the end of their sentences
to get out now so they
don't contract the virus
you know, right before
they're about to get out.
And the whole point of those efforts
are to sort of lessen the
population in the prison
so that the prisons and jails can at least
try to maximize the ability
to take some of the efforts
to social distance, to
have better hygiene.
We've asked for greater
access to very simple things
greater access to soap
and cleaning supplies
which, up to this point,
folks would have to buy
from the commissary
we've asked them to provide them for free.
Provide paid sick leave to
staff, so they don't have to
come to work when they're sick.
You know, these types of
things that can help prevent
spread of the virus, and
then mitigate its spread
for the people who will remain there.
And, lastly, we've asked for, just
greater transparency about
what's actually going on
in the prisons.
And since our letter, the DOC has put up
statistics on their website
for everyone to see
and it's our hope that they will
continue to update them
daily, so that both the public
and policy makers can
know what's going on.
So we can, as a community,
take steps to keep
both prisoners and staff
in our prayers and safe.
- Great, thank you so much, Seth.
And, I just wanted to respond
to one of the questions
I'm seeing on Facebook,
asking how many people
have gotten compensated.
So, just to reiterate
it's only four of over
30 exonerees in Florida
that have actually gotten
compensated through the law.
Some other people have
gotten private bills
and they've gotten compensated that way
but that's a really difficult process.
It means that the individual
has to get a lawmaker
to file compensation just for them
and it has to pass the legislature
and be signed by the governor
and it's really counter to what
the exoneree compensation
law, the universal law
is supposed to do, which
is provide a uniform
and efficient process for
anybody that can prove
that they were wrongfully convicted
and that they're actually
innocent to be compensated.
So, thank you for that question.
And, finally, I'm going to turn to
Representative Jamie Grant.
Representative Grant was elected
to the Florida House of
Representatives in 2015
and his district includes Pinellas
and Hillsborough Counties,
and he's also chair of
the House Criminal Justice Committee.
So, Representative Grant,
thank you for being here today
and what is your job
like, being the chair of
the House Criminal Justice Subcommittee?
- Thanks for having me, Michelle
I think the shortest answer to that
is mass chaos, oftentimes.
It's a chairmanship that a
lot of people love to have
it's been one that's been
exciting for the last
probably, five or six
terms, when you look at
the policy that's been moving
in some of the national
debates, we kind of have
and then somebody who ran for office
that tackled tough challenges
and to kind of mix it up in the arena
and solve difficult challenges
being the chairman of the
Criminal Justice Committee
is certainly a challenge.
What that effectively means,
aside from member bills
that I've run myself, or
my policy that I work on
outside of our judiciary silo
I'm responsible for setting
the criminal justice agenda.
So, bills that are going to be heard
or bills that are not going to be heard
amending, creating proposed
committee substitutes
which that's a way for
us as a committee to say
"Hey, look we like the
idea you're working with
"but we think it needs some work
"and, so, we're going to work on it."
And so I'm responsible
for setting the agenda
I'm responsible for kind
of being a gatekeeper
make sure bad policy doesn't move.
To ensure that we move good policy
that is significant reform.
And typically that
means I have spreadsheet
somewhere between probably 3-400 bills
by the time session's done.
That are all referred to my committee
that we've got to decide what
we're going to do with those
and what we're going to prioritize.
A lot of times, and it's
a good thing that we're
a part time legislature,
but a lot of times
it's a function of time, right?
It's what is going to be a
priority, how much committee time
is that going to take,
and can we make sure
we get that moved out.
And then get to as much good
policy as we can from there.
- And you've been championing
fixing the compensation law
for a long time.
What first got you
interested in the issue?
- I think really two things;
one, I first started,
you were talking about
kind of the private compensation bill
we call 'em claim bills here in Florida
I was a chairman of a select committee
on the claim bill process
to try and reform it
because, quite frankly, it's
a pretty grotesque process
it really depends on who you
know and who you can hire
and who's in the speaker's office
and who's in the president's
office, and all of those
different things when you talk about
waving sovereign immunity
and paying somebody
and that can happen for a lot of things
not just wrongful incarceration.
So trying to reform the
claim bill process was one
but then, two, a lot of the work you all
and the FACDL folks have done
whether it's a guy like Brian Tanenbaum
that's a very dear friend,
or some of the folks
at the Innocence Project
who have been working
on a number of things between FACDL
and the Innocence Project
to highlight the gravest
injustice we can see in society.
And you're probably tired
of me saying this, Michelle
but the gravest injustice
we see is when government
behind a badge or a gun takes
somebody, life or liberty.
And Clemente said it well, right?
You look at somebody like Clemente
he was facing the loss of his
life, not just his freedom
but the loss of his life
and then on the back
side of it has to ask
"What's the point of a law if it doesn't
"help the people it's supposed to help?"
And so, to me, when we think
about what our priorities
are going to be in the
criminal justice phase
step one and all of our
priority should be focused on
people who have had their
life or their liberty taken
for something they did not commit.
And that's really why we
put such an emphasis on this
over the two years I've been
fortunate to be the chair here.
- And the Exoneree Compensation Bill
had a lot of great support this session
it passed multiple committees unanimously
but it ultimately didn't
get through the Senate
and the House floor.
What do you think happened?
- Look, this is a really ugly process.
And I joke with people sometimes
that you come up to
Tallahassee or Washington D.C.
and you see how the sausage is made
and you want to order bacon
the rest of your life.
Because the sausage making process
(Michelle laughing)
can be pretty ugly.
What happened here is that
there were certain lobbyists
who paint themselves as criminal
justice reform lobbyists
that are out there under,
really, kind of one
or two issues, typically.
And because the total package
didn't have their issue in it
so, if we weren't going to do
anything on minimum mandatory
then they were going to fight against us
or if we weren't going to do anything
on retroactive sentencing
they were going to fight against us.
And what they ultimately
did was put their efforts
behind killing, not just this bill
when you look at what we prioritize
from the chairmanship
out of this committee
number one was the clean hands bill
number two was the multiple
components of it, I should say.
All right?
So, not just the fact that
and you touched on it earlier, Michelle
but somebody who has a prior conviction
is much more likely to
be convicted wrongfully
than somebody who did not.
Number two was the timeline.
And I think maybe a simpler way to really
help drive home for people
to understand how offensive
that current law is, is that
it puts somebody in a position
of potentially testifying
against themselves.
Somebody would have to
choose whether or not
they want to put testimony on the record
to prove their innocence
to get compensated
while a prosecutor is still determining
whether or not they want
to retry that person.
And in this country, not only
should you never be locked up
when you haven't committed the crime
but, number two, you should
never be put in a situation
of risking your life for liberty
testifying against yourself.
And so that was there, but
then, three, we looked at it
and we said, "Well look, we had buy-in
"for the prospected stuff moving forward
"but we didn't have maybe
buy-in on the retrospective."
And what I said as the
chairman was two things;
number one, I don't care
at what point in time
somebody was wrongfully
incarcerated, having their life
or their liberty
jeopardized by government
we're going to pay them if they have
met the threshold of being exonerated.
And then, number two, we're
going to pay them on the premise
that they paid for every single day
they are wrongfully incarcerated.
And so that was kind of
the way we looked at it
but inside that package when
you look at the end of session
not only did we have all of
that on the clean hands bill
we had something that I prioritized
and a reporter back in Tampa kind of put
the Tommy Zeigler case on my radar
I think you all are familiar
with it a little bit.
But that's a case where
access to DNA evidence
probably either confirms the conviction
or proves Tommy's innocence.
And so we looked at it
across two years and really
I put several staff attorneys on
coming up with an organic
way that we can reduce
the burden for somebody who's
in prison, like a Clemente
I mean, his case is spot-on.
If Clemente couldn't get
access to the DNA evidence
he's still on death row, or
worse, he's been executed.
And so we have a lot of
people in prison today
who were convicted on
what I call junk science.
And we ought to make it more accessible
to test that evidence
to increase the
credibility of convictions
or get wrongfully incarcerated
people out of prison.
That was in that package.
And then, lastly, some
significant, primarily juvenile
not as far as I wanted to go
but significant seal and expunge policy.
All of that was in that
package that several people
went to war on, and tried
to kill on the last night
not understanding the calendar.
They got the bill sponsored,
I think that there was some
problems with the bill from our side
which couldn't have been
further from the truth
I don't know that we could've done more
to put that bill on a tee
to head over to the Senate
and ultimately get to the governor.
And so it's frustrating,
but in this process
you kind of learn that it's
never done til it's done
and you got to be willing to come back
and work on it next year, and I'm probably
more committed than I've ever been
especially after the
way this session ended.
Because, whether it's
Clemente or anybody else
nobody deserves a fate or a peril
that is predicated on people's egos
or their misunderstanding
of the law or the process.
And it's long past time
that we get this fixed.
- Absolutely, thank you.
And, so, on that note,
what do you recommend
that people who are listening now
what do you recommend that they say or do
to really communicate with their lawmakers
and, you know, get them to
advocate for this reform?
- So, I think it's a great
question, and I think it depends.
One of the things I always tell
people in the advocacy space
is that every one of my
colleagues is either up here
because they know what they want to do
or what they want to be called.
And advocating to those
two different groups
is very, very, very different.
But the good news here
is that this is an issue
that cuts across all
ideologies, all parties.
It's something, as you
mention, that didn't have
a single no vote on it.
And I think the reason for
that is, pretty simply
when you look at the
conservative end of the spectrum
people tend to identify
with the liberties being denied here.
When you look at the
liberal end of the spectrum
that group has largely been
on the decarceration path
prior to the first step back
and some of the things we've seen
with criminal justice reform
getting more and more attention.
But you have an issue that really touches
on kind of all sides, so I always stress
know who you're talking to and
what matters to them, right?
If it's somebody who is just up here
'cause they want a title,
then, sure, they're scared
of their reelection, they're
scared of the consequences
and so it's important to let them know
that you're a constituent,
and it's important
to let them know that you're going to be
paying attention and generating votes
and you'd like them to be on your side
when it comes to that cause.
When it comes to somebody who knows
what they want to get done
they typically don't get moved by threats
they typically don't get moved by fear.
They get moved by good public policy.
And so it's important to
kind of have the facts
and then to know what you're talking about
and to be accurate.
I'll say that one of
the biggest challenges
and you and I have had this conversation
Seth and I have talked about it
one of the biggest challenges I've had
in now six or seven years of
working on criminal justice reform
is just the amount of misinformation.
And it seems like every year
a different issue is raised
and people just fundamentally
either misstate fact
or don't understand the law
and all of a sudden, hundreds or thousands
of calls and emails are
going, and they're just wrong.
They're just factually wrong.
And so it becomes very difficult
to make public policy reforms
predicated on bad facts.
Bad facts always make bad law.
And so that's really
the biggest challenge
and so I would say just
be engaged, be aware
know your stuff, and know
what matters to the legislator
you're talking to, as far
as what they care about
and why they're there.
- That's really great advice.
And just to shift gears a little bit
so, do you have any updates
or things that you'd like
to see the Department of Corrections do
in light of the COVIC-19
pandemic in prisons?
- Yeah, so, biggest update I've got is
I have a staff director who's about
eight and a half months pregnant.
And so, Whitney and I are
both kind of anxiously waiting
some return correspondence
and some answers
from the Department of Corrections.
What I will say in meeting
with Secretary Inch
a couple times this week,
and just updating with him
I know that the department
is trying to do what it can
with what I think is a
really tough situation.
I mean, the reality is this is
a pandemic inside of prison
it's a pandemic outside of prison.
It's a public health crises,
it's an economic disaster.
I'm not sure we've ever seen
anything like this in our lifetime.
And, so, how we kind of
navigate through it, I think
requires a level of calm and
cool and strategic thought
to make sure that we're not overreacting
but also to make sure that we're not
under-appreciating the dangers around us
from a public health perspective.
And so I do have the utmost
confidence in Secretary Inch
and hope that they will
continue down the path
that he's been headed.
But we're still kind of
in a wait-and-see pattern
with some of the specifics
we've asked about.
- Great, and we just
have one last question
which is from somebody who's
participating on Facebook Live
so what is the best way
to hold actors accountable
when they are part of
a wrongful conviction
including prosecutors,
and even the lawmakers
who don't support these innocence reforms?
- So, you and I, I
think, talked about this
the first time we met
in my district office
a couple years ago.
I think a prosecutor who
commits a Brady violation
that leads to a conviction
ought to lose their pension.
I think that they ought
to have the same liability
as somebody that was wrongfully convicted.
At the end of the day, when somebody has
the gun or the badge, the more
powerful and authoritarian
government becomes, the more cases we see
where somebody's wrongfully convicted.
Or somebody's wrongfully put
to death, at the extreme end.
And then we watch all of the watered-down
or less significant, denials
of liberty throughout.
And so, to me, a prosecutor or a judge
somebody who has the
badge, who has the gun
and who maliciously and knowingly denies
the production of evidence that would
lead to a question on the conviction
or to decrease the
likelihood of a conviction
there's no punishment that I
personally wouldn't support.
Now, the bad news, I don't
know that I have as much buy-in
up here from people who
probably get scared to take on
law enforcement, or state
attorneys, or judges
when there's been bad actors.
But the truth, I think, a
the end of the day always
in my experience up here,
is that no one group
is fully made up of good actors
and no one group is made
up of fully bad actors
across, whether it's the
criminal justice system
or in the Seminole justice system
or the education system, healthcare
you can go everywhere
we're going to find good and bad actors.
We ought to be holding
bad actors accountable
and to me a prosecutor
or a judge who knowingly
and willfully tries to wrongfully
incarcerate or convict
incarcerate and execute somebody
there's no punishment
that I'd feel sympathy
for them suffering.
- Thank you so much Representative Grant
we really appreciate your advice.
And we have a question for Clemente
a two part question
so, Clemente, what has been
the best part about being out?
What are some of the
highs and what have been
some of the toughest challenges
since you've been exonerated?
- Well, I'm (laughs) free!
That should be a highlight,
I have a dog now
I have a girlfriend.
So, you know, I am trying
to interact with people.
I cook my own food.
So, that is the plus side, the highlight
I was able to see my mother
in Christmas and hug her.
They give her a visa so
she come and visit me.
I have seen my sisters.
I haven't met the rest of the
family, but, I eventually
hopefully, I'm going to do it soon.
They'll always, all these, right
these, you know, opportunities
they say, "Oh you got stumped
somewhere 15 years ago
"where technology changed,
where it wasn't iPhones
"where it was a flip phone,"
and when I got out of prison
the first thing they give me is a FaceTime
with the sound of my lawyer, and I'm like
"Oh my God, I have seen your picture
"but I can't believe I'm
seeing you face-to-face!"
(Michelle laughing)
You know, so
I've been struggling
a lot with technology
I'm not there yet, but it's baby steps
I think it's going to get better.
- Absolutely.
And one last question, Clemente
another question from Facebook.
So, what is your dream,
like what do you hope
in the future that you can do?
I know you were thinking
about going to cooking school
you've been advocating in Tallahassee
can you talk about some of that?
- Yeah, like the
representative was saying
you know, it's a lot of misconception
or misinformation from people.
Maybe because they aren't
real, or maybe because
they have never come across any part
somebody they've been
through these struggles
or they don't know
nobody like that, right?
So, my dream has always been, I cook.
I don't know, they make people happy
they make them smile, feed
your body, now you happy
you know, things like that.
But, after all these years
that I've been going up there
and see what is behind
the scenes, how much work
we still got to do, for now
I want to keep on doing this
and advocating for the wrongly convicted
for the people who were wronged.
For the people that I know is
still there and is innocent.
For myself.
Because I believe if we make somebody
accountable for wrongly convict somebody
or wrongly execute somebody
it will be a better prosecution.
But it's nothing out there right now
that make them give a better prosecution
because they got 100% immunity.
So, you know, I would like that to change.
So, for now, this is what
I'm going to be doing
as much as I can, until I'm
able to go and fulfill my dream.
- Thank you, Clemente
and I want to just end on a
final question for Clemente
because we are all in this uncertain time
and people are really
looking for some hope
and nobody knows better than you
how to keep hope and how to keep faith.
How did you manage to do
that for all those years?
- I prayed.
I prayed and I prayed,
like it was no tomorrow.
I know a lot of people
don't believe in religion
I know a lot of people
don't believe in God
or different gods, or
don't believe in Jesus
or they do.
I ain't here to preach you.
I'm just telling you that
I prayed with all my heart
and all my soul.
And I believed what I was praying on.
And I thought it was going to be better.
Even though when things get hard
about how many times I
was denied a new trial
I'd pray again.
Now, believe me, I was
devastated, I was sad
I was crying, I was infuriated,
all these kind of things
that come into a human being.
But eventually, it teach me patience.
So all we have to do right now is patient
and believe that things
are going to be better
because a tunnel don't
last forever, right?
There's always light at the end of it.
So I believe we're going to make it
to the other side of the tunnel
just, let's do what we're supposed to do
and we're going to be all right.
- Well, that's really the
perfect note to end on.
And, again, I want to thank
everybody for joining us today
for this important conversation.
Thank you to all our
panelists for joining in.
If you want to learn more
about Clemente's story
he is on the Wrongful Conviction podcast
and we will send a link so you can listen
and we will also be
answering more questions
if you want to keep them
coming on Facebook Live.
And, again, thank you,
everyone, for your time
and we look forward to continuing
working for compensation.
Have a good rest of your day.
- Thanks guys.
- Thanks.
- All right.
Okay!
