>>Jared Cohen: Now, you were all very young
when you joined these groups. If we could
actually just quickly even just go down the
line here.
How old were you, Paul, when you joined?
>>Paul Carrillo: 14.
>>Jared Cohen: Usama?
>>Usama Hasan: 13.
>>Jared Cohen: TJ?
>>TJ Leyden: 14.
>>Maajid Nawaz: I've just said that. 15.
>>Jared Cohen: So each of you joined at such
an incredibly young age. What was it about
these groups? What did they offer, what was
missing, what was so alluring about what they
were bringing to the table that at that age
you saw this as your best option?
>>Paul Carrillo: You know, it's kind of ironic
for me.
Growing up, I did not want to be a gang member.
I can remember crying on my stairs in the
hallway when my father was in jail and just
detesting his lifestyle and not liking his
friends and the things that they did.
But there came a point in time where I felt
like I had no other options, and I was actually
jumped into my gang not by choice.
There was a lot of abuse, like TJ mentioned,
in my household, so I went to the streets
for comfort, for support, for camaraderie,
and the gang provided that. And I was just
looking for somebody to embrace me and allow
me to have an identity and a voice, and I
just wanted to hang out.
And one day they just kind of looked at me
and said, "You know, we've been asking you
to join the gang for several weeks now and
we're tired of asking you."
And so I -- you know, they proceeded to beat
me, and after that, he this gave me a hug,
shook my hand, and said, "Now you're from
the gang."
And I specifically remember waking up the
next day and just looking out my window and
thinking, "What the heck did I just get myself
into?"
I started thinking people that I can't associate
with anymore, places that I couldn't go to
anymore, enemies that I had to assume.
It was very difficult, but I felt I had no
other option, growing up in a gang family,
so I embraced it and I thrived in it, and
within a matter of three or four years I became
somewhat of an authority amongst my peers
and started heavily recruiting and organizing
some of the operations within the gang.
>>Usama Hasan: I grew up in a very devout
Muslim family, but also, growing up in the
north London in the '80s, I experienced a
lot of racism at school and always felt I
was not welcome and excluded from wide society.
The '80s was a very politicized time for Muslims
internationally. You had the Afghan war going
on. You'd had the Iranian revolution. You
had the whole Israeli/Palestinian situation
as it is now, very lively. The Israeli invasion
of Lebanon, et cetera. This group gave me
a strong sense of identity to belong to a
particular group, a (inaudible) group, and
we all dressed in a certain way, wearing robes
and turbans. For most of my time at Cambridge,
I used to cycle around to my lectures around
the university wearing a robe and a turban.
I learned martial arts through this group,
including how to handle knives, et cetera,
and of course taking part in a war at the
age of 19 was incredibly cool. There was a
sense of power, of belonging, and of adventure.
>>TJ Leyden: For me, it's very similar to
Paul and Usama. It was a sense of identity.
It gave me a purpose in life. It gave me an
outlook, gave me a -- something to look forward
to every day. My friends, hanging out, what
we planned to accomplish, meeting those goals,
and then we were like "Okay, now, what's next?"
You know, like everybody has goals in life,
but our goals were just different.
And they gave me that entire -- my entire
cause, my entire identity, my entire being
became that, because you couldn't do anything
else.
I mean, I -- there was -- as you said, Paul,
I couldn't go to certain neighborhoods anymore.
I couldn't go to certain -- everything was
defined. Instantly, as soon as I got involved,
everything became defined and structured.
And I guess something I lacked and didn't
have was that structure and that control.
>>Maajid Nawaz: I guess what's interesting
is that there was a relationship between TJ
and his background and mine and Usama with
what he's mentioned with racism.
So being chased and hounded by this Combat
18 group of racist thugs helped me decide
-- helped me question my own identity and
the questions I needed to resolve, and I joined
the group.
And for TJ it was the exact opposite side
of the equation, and I think that it's really
interesting to explore that there still is
-- in propaganda terms, there still is a relationship
between those who use Islam to radicalize
young people and get them to join organizations
by playing identity politics and those who
use far-right ideologies and play similar
identity politics to get young white kids
into organizations like the one that TJ joined.
And I think it's really interesting to explore
that, because actually what most people don't
know is they have formal relationships. These
groups, they speak to each other because they
recognize that they have this mutually reinforcing
agenda.
And so why not, on the other side, exactly
what we're doing now, due to -- thanks, Jared,
for organizing this, why not on the other
side also have that relationship and speak
and decide how we can work together to challenge
that.
>>Jared Cohen: Now, TJ, Usama, you both talked
about that aha moment for you. TJ, you talked
about your son using a racial slur, and you
realizing you didn't want your son to grow
up following the same path that you did. Usama,
you talked about seven seven.
Paul, Maajid, what was that aha moment where
you realized you had to get out?
>>Paul Carrillo: You know, like I mentioned
earlier, I never really wanted to join in
the first place.
So I constantly would remind myself every
few weeks, every few months, gosh, how long
is this going to last? How am I going to get
out of this mess? I know this isn't something
I want to die doing.
But it probably hit me hardest when I had
a young friend of mine who really wanted to
be like me. He followed me around. He wanted
to adopt the same nickname I had. In the gang
culture, you have to earn it. You know, you
ask an older guy who you aspire to be and
you have to earn his name. So he was doing
that for several months.
And I knew that -- you know, my mind really
started to shift. And I knew that it was not
going to end up well for this kid. But subconsciously,
I guess I would tell myself that he had time.
He was young. Let him learn for a couple of
years, and then, you know, I'll sit him down
later in life and kind of help him leave the
gang.
And I never got that chance. He was murdered
at 14 years old. And for a long period of
time, I felt like I had blood on my hands,
like I let had happen, and I didn't do anything
about it. So that was probably the biggest
tipping point for me.
And then I was going to have my first child,
and all -- those two events happened within
a few months of each other. So I was either
going to really fall off the deep end or,
you know, make a positive exit.
>>Maajid Nawaz: I think what was significant
was that two things happened.
In prison, when we were convicted, we were
adopted by Amnesty International as prisoners
of conscience, because our group wasn't the
type of group that attacked civilians in terrorist
operations. It was more like a revolutionary
organization. So Amnesty adopted us as prisoners
of conscience. And that was the first stage
of my intellectual journey, because up until
that point, all I'd ever known was that I
defined human rights organizations as the
soft palate tool of colonialism to colonize
the minds of my people. It was the first time
I had actually been adopted and campaigned
for in a more effective way than even my own
group had campaigned for my release by someone
that I had defined of as my enemy.
And then the second factor was the years speaking
and studying with the former jihadists, the
political prisoners, anyone who knows Egypt,
Ayman Nour, for example, is the head of the
(saying name) party. He was in prison with
me. We had the current head of the Global
Muslim Brotherhood, he was in prison with
me. We had former jihadists like the assassins
of the former president that I mentioned,
Anwar Sadat. These discussions that we had
were fascinating, and especially because those
who had been former jihadists had abandoned
their own ideology. And so through discussing
and studying with these people, what I realized
-- and this is the crucial point, as Usama
said -- was that actually what we had done
was we had politicized our religion and we'd
turned it into a political ideology. And it
was actually a human project. And we were
actually -- what we were trying to do was
take power. And it was a cynical use of the
faith for modern ideological purposes.
And when I realized that through continuous
study and through looking at the original
sources of the faith, I felt I could no longer
carry on with this very sort of cynical manipulation
of the faith.
>>Jared Cohen: Now, we all, you know, sort
of -- a lot of people here are interested
in technology, a lot of people here work in
technology. There's a saying that I like to
mutter, which is technology complicates every
challenge, but it can also be part of the
solution to every challenge.
How do you all see, given the work that you're
doing today, the role of technology morphing
or complicating the challenge of recruitment
of young people into these organizations?
>>Paul Carrillo: Gosh, it's very difficult.
You know, for example, a lot of the kids that
I work with at the middle school through Southern
California Crossroads have MySpace accounts,
Facebook accounts, and like you said, it's
a huge recruitment tool. A lot of cyber bullying.
So a lot of altercations that take place online
a lot of time manifest into the community
on the streets. And so we're starting to realize
now, at least in my industry, that we need
to get online as well and do some mediation
online.
But, unfortunately, in inner cities, in any
community where there's a lot of poverty and
abuse and violence, that type of behavior
is glorified, whether it's by watching Scarface
or any of these mafia-type movies, kids latch
on to that, and they're the so-called heroes
of the community. And so we're kind of working
against it.
>>Jared Cohen: TJ, I know you have a particular
perspective on this.
>>TJ Layden: Well, everything about the media,
the right-wing extremist, initially, if you
guys come out with it, they're on it. The
next day, they're using it, whether it's the
computer, the Internet, all new connections
they make are all through tweets.
So everything they do is technological. So
I have to arrive at that same way constantly.
Something new comes out, I have to learn with
it, use it, innovate it, any way, shape, or
form.
Give you an example. Two young kids in California
never met a white supremacist face to face.
Studied it all online. Burned two synagogues,
planned to bomb a church, and killed a gay
and lesbian couple.
Reverse that, I never met this kid publicly
face to face. He had a hate site about me
asking for me to die. He actually had a picture
of my head exploding, being shot. Worked with
him for about eight months going back and
forth, back and forth. He dropped the Web
site. And within a year, I had him out of
the gang.
So technology can work both ways. It can work
to our advantage; it can work to our disadvantage.
It just depends on how we want to use it.
>>Jared Cohen: While we're on that theme,
Maajid, before I go to you, because I know
you have a couple of thoughts on how mobile
has been used, TJ, I always find it very interesting
for you to share the number of people that
you have gotten out of the organization and
how many more you have to get out before you
actually exceed the number that you got in.
>>TJ Layden: I have gotten 87 kids out of
the white supremacy movement, four away from
hitting my goal of getting the same number
of kids out as I got in.
>>Jared Cohen: And Maajid, what about you?
>>Maajid Nawaz: One of the greatest misconceptions
is that Islamist extremists are, I suppose,
technologically inept or uneducated. It couldn't
be more wrong. It's the opposite.
Statistically, on average, they're better
educated than the average American, as Marc
Sageman's Leaderless Jihad demonstrates.
We can demonstrate that anecdotally. So Bin
Laden is an engineer. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed
is an engineer, the man accused of masterminding
the 9/11.
The man accused of killing Daniel Pearl in
Karachi went to where I did my master's, the
London School of Economics. His name is Omar
Sheikh. And that translates into technology.
So I learned how to use e-mail through my
group back in the days when nobody knew what
e-mail was. I was trained -- we were trained
in using the Internet and technology to our
advantage. I mean, why do you think Bin Laden
was sitting in Abdolabad for so long and communicating
-- he was actually communicating with his
group. And the best -- one of the best intelligence
agencies in the world, the CIA, couldn't detect
that. They couldn't detect his means of communication.
And right now they're looking at how he managed
to communicate with his organization sitting
in Pakistan under the noses of the ISI.
So I'll give you an anecdote to this story.
Because, actually, it's a real problem.
I work in Pakistan. As well as founding Quilliam,
we founded an organization called Khudi, which
is a youth-led social movement in Pakistan
to work on the grass roots to inoculate young
Pakistanis against the extremist narrative
and advocate for democratic culture. When
the governor of Punjab was assassinated, we
saw in Pakistan the opposite of what happened
in Egypt with the Arab Spring and the uprising
in Egypt. Facebook was used almost instantly
by people setting up fan pages for the assassin
of the governor of Punjab. He was assassinated
because he was challenging extremism.
And, likewise, when Bin Laden was arrested,
there was a plethora of Facebook groups set
up to say he's a martyr, sorry, when he was
killed. And both these sites attracted thousands.
In the governor of Punjab's case, the site
had to be taken down by Facebook. But until
it was taken down, they had tens of thousands
of followers.
And the anecdote is this: These organizations
are very tech-savvy.
My group that I helped cofound in Pakistan,
my former group, one of the things they did
is set up a stall outside Mobile Link offices?
Should I mention the name? Well, I just did.
Sorry. They set up a stall outside the offices
of Mobile Link to recruit staff from Mobile
Link. And the reason they did that -- and
they succeeded, by the way, in recruit staff
from the mobile phone company. And so people
would join the group. And they were working
in the mobile phone office. And this is one
of the largest mobile phone providers in Pakistan.
And the group was then able to take phone
numbers of key intellectuals, media personalities,
and politicians from across the country, and
then group text message them with their press
releases and propaganda messages, because
they had people on the inside of the mobile
phone companies providing them that information.
And that was a deliberate strategy by them
to recruit for that purpose.
And when I toured Pakistan, I've toured about
22 universities with this message. Everyone
I met from the media side or the politician
side, they all ask me how the hell did these
people get my phone number, because they send
me these texts almost weekly. And that's how
they got the phone number. They're very effective
at communicating.
And I don't think we are successfully leveraging
in the opposite direction to challenge these
messages.
>>Jared Cohen: Usama?
>>Usama Hasan: I wanted to add the human element
to this. Technology can make recruitment or
counter recruitment much more efficient. And
we know that.
But, essentially, my experience is that the
human element is crucial. So I was involved
with a group which had a very charismatic
human leader. And all the groups I've known
have had that also. It's almost a cult-like
mentality. There's a strong element of cultism
in these groups. And, in fact, some of the
best counter-narrative, which need to be produced,
also need to be circulated via charismatic
figures who have done so across the Muslim
worlds. The only danger is, they become targets
of assassins, et cetera.
But connecting people with other human beings,
you know, Muslims and Jews, for example, or
white and black people, or Asians with other
ethnic minorities, especially when they demonize
the other, that's a large part of breaking
down this problem, just increasing that human
contact to break down the barriers. And, of
course, technology can help with that as well.
>>Jared Cohen: Now, when I first approached
all of you, it must have been about six months
ago, and I initially proposed the idea of
let's have a more holistic conversation about
radicalization across all of these different
contexts. What was your initial reaction to
that? And now that you've actually had the
chance to interact with each other over the
course of six months, what have you learned
from each other's different experiences? What
is similar? What's different? What's your
kind of initial takeaway as we begin to expand
the conversation?
>>Paul Carrillo: For me, you know, the first
thing I thought of was I don't want to be
labeled as an extremist or sit at a table
with somebody who I thought promoted violence
on a much larger scale. To me, growing up
in a gang lifestyle, you kind of justify it
by telling yourself, you know, it's just bad
guys killing bad guys, as opposed to the innocent
being the victim.
So I was a little bit cautious. But, you know,
over the last few months, I think our group
has grown pretty strong. And there's a lot
of similarities, a lot of differences. And
I think we all appreciate and respect the
different contexts in which we come from.
And I think we've got a pretty powerful group
here that's ready to do some work all over
the world, actually.
>>Usama Hasan: I'd always known that there
were similarities. For example, after 9/11,
I heard a couple of young black kids in our
neighborhood actually saying, "Cool, the terrorists
pulled it off. They rocked it, man." And they're
walking down my street saying that very loudly.
In my heart talking to me a few years ago,
when I was grilled on this, I said, look,
what we did was very similar to gang members
stabbing each other on the streets of London.
I knew those connections were there, but I
had never really met people with these gangs.
One thing TJ said which struck me was when
he was young, he wanted to get hold of a nuclear
bomb and try to take out Philadelphia. Oh,
my God, that's the idea we had, becoming a
suicide bomber and taking out Tel Aviv, again,
the common humanity, the good side and the
not-so-good side.
>>TJ Layden: It was Washington, D.C. I kind
of like Philadelphia.
>>Usama Hasan: Sorry.
>>TJ Layden: I've learned from this that I'm
very -- the white supremacy movement is very
much in the middle. I've learned that we have
-- because of a lot of our hard-core gang
activity, I have connections with not only
Paul, but another gentleman on the panel,
Melvyn. But also the extremist element, because
they wanted an Islamic caliphate; I wanted
an Aryan caliphate.
You know, just learning all these different
things. As we grow, we just keep expanding.
And I said this to Jared when he first asked
me to come on to the committee. I said, unbelievable,
thank God, and it's about time.
I remember sitting down with violent Muslim
extremists and others trying to figure out
how we can divide this country, work together
to beat our one common enemy. And then, you
know, the enemy is my friend, and so that
enemy's no longer there. But at the same time,
we're both working to destroy that enemy.
And then we can work with each other. And
this is the first time now on the opposite
side that we're working to counteract this
and to combat this.
>>Maajid Nawaz: Can I say -- most of it's
come out. Actually, the first time we went
upon this path to explore the way that extremist
manifests across different cultural contexts
and the first time that we had done something
publicly was at Google Zeitgeist around ten
months ago. So congratulations to Google Zeitgeist,
because I think it's started off something
which is going to have global implications.
One of the ways which is -- it's really interesting
for me as well because of the work I do, that
when we're speaking to young Pakistanis, we're
often -- the response we get is we're often
accused, why are you only focusing on Muslims,
when extremism isn't exclusively a Muslim
problem. That's my remit, that's the work
I'm doing and Usama's doing. But this helps
us to demonstrate that extremism can manifest
in different ways across different cultural
contexts, so that nobody feels picked on,
but we're working to find common solutions
to what are common problems.
>>Jared Cohen: One of the reactions that I
get from people when I talk about bringing
former extremists together from different
contexts, their initial reaction is almost
across the board, how do you know that they're
really former? And I always say --
[ Laughter ]
>>Jared Cohen: -- they've left the organizations
and now, you know, they've renounced violence
and now they're actively and publicly speaking
against the organizations they used to be
part of.
But, you know, hidden in that sort of joke
or serious reaction in a lot of cases is a
huge challenge that you all have, which is
that, you know, it is really difficult to
be a former. And it's hard to imagine more
credible voices out there than people who
used to be part of it, saw it, didn't like
it, left, and are now risking their lives
to work against it.
How do you deal with that?
How do you overcome the stereotypes and perceptions
and challenges, that come with the label of
being a former or skepticism with being a
former?
>>Paul Carrillo: You know, the work that I
do is unique. As a gang interventionist in
from Los Angeles I work at St. Francis Medical
Center in the trauma department as the injury
prevention coordinator, so I am usually the
first face that a patient who has just suffered
a gunshot wound or a stab wound as a result
of gang violence, I am usually the first person
they see. So I actually have to have somewhat
of a relationship with active gang members.
And you have to walk a fine line between law
enforcement and the gang members. If I get
too close to either side, I am seen as an
enemy and can suffer the consequences.
So I have to be very transparent. I can't
demonize gangs because, like I said, for some
of these kids it's what they are born into.
It's their family. So it's not as simple as
just like what I was always told growing up
is gangs are stupid. Gangs are no good. Why
would you join a gang?
But that was my family. How can you tell me
that my family wasn't what I was supposed
to be a part of?
But it is very difficult maintaining that
license to operate. And like I said, being
transparent is probably the most critical
key piece. And guys are constantly always
checking to make sure that I'm in it for the
right reasons and not trying to exploit anybody
or even disrespect any organization publicly.
>>Usama Hasan: My working background has been
largely with the Muslim faith community. And,
in fact, it's my faith which informs all that
I do. What I try to do is to be honest and
tell people about my journey, because I get
accused of being a sellout and of being bought
by the government, et cetera. I tell them,
no, I have actually had an intellectual journey.
I may have been an extremist before, but I
was always a well-intentioned extremist who
was looking for the truth.
And people have journeys. In the Koran we
have the story of Moses who killed somebody
when he was younger by mistake, and when the
Pharoah taunts him about his previous murder,
he held his hand up and said, "I did that
and I was wrong and I was wrong and I was
misguided at the time."
So what I try to do is explain to people that
we all subscribe to these ideas, Islamism
and jihadism, et cetera, but analyzing calmly,
they are wrong.
I am still against illegal wars. In Afghanistan,
again in Helmand with the government last
summer, trying to help negotiate with former
Taliban, et cetera, to bring an end to the
war. And that's the only way I know, is to
stick to the truth and try to express that
truth and try to put up with the trouble you
get from both sides. Because some people call
you a sellout. Others say you are not a real
former. You are a wolf in sheep's clothing,
et cetera, et cetera.
We have to deal with all of that. But just
give your message the best you can and hope
that it had the right results.
>>Jared Cohen: Time is running out, unfortunately,
and I wanted to get to one more point to wrap
it up, which is you may be wondering why we
are doing this. Right? Why is Google putting
together a panel of this nature.
Well, our mission statement is organize the
world's information, make it available, make
it useful, and make the world a better place
in the process.
That's what we believe we are doing here.
We are organizing different perspectives that
may not otherwise be mixed and matched to
help us better understand the nature of a
particular challenge, think about it differently,
and try to determine what we can actually
do to find a solution.
And what began as an experiment in Zeitgeist
about ten months ago in Arizona as a small
conversation between Maajid and Paul has since
grown into several conversations that we've
done not just with the four people you see
up here, but with a handful of others. And
it's going to culminate, at least in the next
stage, in a summit we are putting on in Dublin,
June 26 to 28th, the Summit Against Violent
Extremism, where Google has teamed up with
the Council on Foreign Relations to bring
together 88 former gang members, former religious
extremists, former right-wing extremists,
and former nationalist extremists together
with 20 survivors of terrorism and violence
together with NGOs and academics and private
sector entities all to sort of form this intellectual
collision around one of the biggest challenges
facing us today.
And I wanted to close by asking the four panelists
who are here with us today who were part of
this journey since the beginning, what do
you hope will come out of that? We are making
an investment to bring together and facilitate
a conversation that has never happened with
such a large group of formers from so many
different countries who speak so many different
languages and who have been affiliated with
so many different groups. Help us understand
why something like this is important.
>>Paul Carrillo: I hope more people with resources
and influence come to the table. I love hearing
Geoffrey speak. I always get reenergized,
and I am fighting the same battle. And like
he mentioned, it is very difficult to raise
funds for organizations that focus on troubled
kids. Or whatever society calls minority kids
or kids that come from a gang family or a
family that's been involved in organized crime
or what have you. It's difficult.
And a lot of times it feels like it's a losing
battle, but you have to do what you can.
And I think it has to be a collaborative effort,
you know, like what you see here. People who
might -- without your help, might not ever
have communicated or came together for a common
cause now are working together to make a difference.
So that's what I hope happens.
>>Jared Cohen: Maajid.
>>Maajid Nawaz: I just want to say that on
a global scale, these organizations, extremist
organizations, are already cooperating. I
alluded to this earlier. And it's not Islam
is cooperating on a global scale. Islam is
cooperating with each other in their separate
groups but also with other types of gang-based
or far-right Fascist-based organizations.
And they are exploiting globalization to their
advantage.
So what I hope that we can achieve is to replicate
that for democratic activism, for citizenship-based
politics, and to challenge the extremist ideology
across all these different cultural contexts
in a way that truly exploits globalization
so that we can develop an international network
and start pushing back against violent extremism
and nonviolent extremism in all its manifestations.
>>TJ Leyden: And for me, I just want the people
out there, as we grow and as this continues
to go on, I want these kids to realize they
are not alone. There is going to become a
network of all of us out there, and hopefully
this network will continue to grow. And that,
some day, as we have all said, some day we
will make the term "former" very popular.
[ Applause ]
>>Usama Hasan: Similarly, I hope it will bolster
the counter narrative. It's kind of cool to
be radical for young people. It's very easy
to give radical Friday certify mobs like we
had for many years talking about jihad against
the U.S. and Israel and these kind of things.
And also a story of heros, the heros of the
Afghan jihad, for example, were fresh in our
memory.
But some of the people I met here are heros
who survived terrorism, heros who fight against
violence or poverty or racism in their communities.
I think it's a chance to celebrate that kind
of heroism and attract people to that kind
of radical behavior which is also far more
cool, actually.
>>Jared Cohen: Please join me in a round of
applause for our panel.
[ Applause ]
