>> Hey, is this working?
Okay.
I think I see my mic on.
Okay.
Cool.
Hello!
This is Game Center Live.
This is a new talk show that we are starting
up here at NYU Game Center.
NYU Game Center is right here in this cool
building right here.
Why did you take a picture?
It's okay.
So today we have a bunch of special guests
that we're gonna talk to and hang out with.
We are also gonna be going over some important
game news, as well as mundane school announcements,
if there are any students watching.
So feel free to hang out for the next hour
or two as I just make a huge fool of myself,
and try to be a TV host.
We'll see how it goes.
First off, we'll start with some announcements.
So if you haven't heard, NYU Game Center has
moved to a new building at 370 Jay Street.
If you've lived in the New York area and you've
visited us before at 2 Metrotech, 370 Jay
Street is a few blocks away.
We're still under construction.
It doesn't quite look like this yet.
But don't worry.
Soon it will.
Next...
Other events that are going on here.
We have Playtest Thursday.
Playtest Thursday is something we run every
week, if you're not familiar.
It's Thursday, 5:30 pm, 370 Jay Street, 6th
floor.
We have free pizza, and we encourage everyone
-- not just students, but also everyone in
the whole New York City games community -- to
bring their games and playtest them.
Eat pizza.
Everyone wins.
It's win-win.
This week, we are also hosting Marie Foulston,
right after the Playtest Thursday at 7:00
pm.
That's tonight.
If you haven't RSVP'd yet, make sure you definitely
RSVP if you're planning on coming.
Don't RSVP if you're not going to attend.
That doesn't make sense.
But definitely RSVP.
Because the room is a little bit on the smaller
side.
So make sure you go to our website.
Gamecenter.NYU.edu.
And sign up for that.
Should be a fantastic talk.
And who knows.
Maybe you'll get a preview of Marie Foulston
later on in this broadcast.
Who knows?
I know.
I know, actually.
Okay.
Other local events.
The Wonderbundle -- or Wonderville is a local
NYC-area bar in Bushwick.
Or Ridgewood, depending on who you ask.
But anyway, they're running a big event tomorrow.
I believe it starts at 8:00 pm.
They are launching their Wonderbundle, which
is what they did their whole Kickstarter around.
Full disclosure.
I also contributed a game to this bundle.
But if you're 21 or older, feel free to go
to this party tomorrow.
It should be a really fun time.
Other events going on at Babycastles, our
favorite DIY punk video game gallery, over
here in New York City, and Babycastles -- they
are running a new exhibition starting next
Friday, I believe.
Let me double check.
Starting next Friday.
That's the 27th.
It's called the Year of the Pig.
And it is celebrating Chinese -- mainland
Chinese, Taiwanese, and Hong Kong game developers.
And they all have games premiering here.
Games and installations.
And it should be really fun.
And the tickets are pretty low cost.
$5 to $15 on a sliding scale, depending on
your ability to pay.
And it should be really fun.
It's right off the Union Square stop, or the
6th Ave L stop.
Make sure you go to Babycastles next week.
It should be really fun.
Other announcements.
GDC Summit submissions are actually closing
pretty soon.
At the end of this month.
So if you want to get some kind of GDC submission
in, this is kind of your last chance in the
next two weeks.
If you're not familiar, the GDC Summits are
like mini-conference tracks.
They're separate from the main tracks.
So there's, like, ones like AI, there's stuff
for graphics, or my favorite is level design.
Or there's plenty of different tracks.
There's over 20 different summits.
So if you want to submit something to GDC,
make sure you actually start now, too.
Because the form is like super long.
It's like thousands of words.
So if you want to submit to GDC, do it now.
Another call for submissions.
QGCon is a queerness and games conference.
They're about diversity and inclusion in games,
and they are running up at Concordia University,
Montreal.
Not too far from New York City.
And QGCon is actually looking for submissions.
And I believe the submissions are open until
October 15th.
So make sure you take advantage of that.
If you want to submit, whether it's like a
talk or a workshop idea, visit QGCon.com and
make your submissions.
Then just some last few student announcements
that are really important.
Helpdesks, specifically code helpdesks, have
been expanded every weekday, 1 to 5 pm.
So if you need help with GameMaker stuff or
Unity stuff, make sure you go to this helpdesk,
so that you can get the help you need.
You don't have to suffer in silence.
Just go to the helpdesk, sit down, and there'll
be a very qualified, excellent person who
can be there to help you with your GameMaker
or Unity projects.
Some can even help you with your JavaScript
stuff, and some even know some Shader stuff.
So definitely check that out.
Other school stuff going on.
If you haven't heard, the Global Climate Strike
is happening next week.
Or actually, no.
Starting tomorrow.
It's not next week.
I mean, it's going on more next week.
But starting tomorrow, the Global Climate
Strike is starting.
If you're a student and you intend to participate
in the strike, make sure you talk to your
instructor and make alternate arrangements.
Maybe you can get your absence excused, so
that you can participate in the strike.
As we all know, climate change and the climate
crisis are really important issues of our
time.
So it's totally okay if you want to participate,
but make sure you communicate with everyone
first about it.
I believe it's starting at Foley Square in
the morning in lower Manhattan, and then they're
marching up through Manhattan and ending at
Bryant Park around the early afternoon, where
climate activist Greta Thunberg will be giving
a speech.
If you like really crowded spaces where you're
stuck on the street and can't pee and just
have to stand there, it's really, really fun.
Go to a protest march in NYC.
It's super fun.
Other stuff?
What is he doing?
Other stuff going on is: Anything But Games.
Anything But Games is a proud Game Center
tradition going on tomorrow, at, I believe,
5 pm in room 626.
Anything But Games is where different members
of the Game Center community hang out and
talk about basically anything other than games.
And if you mention games, it's really fun.
Everyone gets to go...
Boo!
Games!
So it's super fun.
Make sure you attend.
And hang out with the rest of your classmates
and teachers and everyone.
Another important announcement for Game Center
students.
Elections or -- I should say nominations for
student reps are open.
So please make sure you nominate -- whether
it's yourself or a friend you know, who would
be super qualified to be a student rep -- make
sure you nominate them.
Because student reps are an important part
of the whole governance system here at NYU
Game Center.
The student rep is the main person who voices
student concerns or complaints or compliments.
Student compliments are nice too.
To the rest of the department and faculty.
So it's partly how you hold the faculty and
the staff kind of accountable to what the
student body wants and needs.
So make sure you take this student rep stuff
pretty seriously.
Because it's how you get stuff.
And then lastly, just to end our announcements,
make sure you follow us on our website.
On Facebook, on Twitter, we're @NYUGameCenter
on Twitter, and on YouTube, we're NYUGameCenter.
Our YouTube is a pretty cool and in my opinion
underutilized resource, where we have over
a hundred talks by famous, important, influential
game industry thinkers and developers.
So make sure you check out our YouTube.
We have a lot of good stuff on there.
Okay.
That's all the announcements.
How long did that take?
That took like ten minutes, right?
Okay.
Next, let's move on to news.
So joining me for news will be my amazing
co-host, Naomi Clark.
>> I'm behind...
ROBERT: Oh, no.
Let me change this.
That's our Twitch screen.
Let me change that too.
That's weird.
So...
Something I thought would be fun is if we
also covered, like, typical game industry
news or important game industry news going
on.
And then offer our snide, snarky commentary.
To company that news.
So that you know what to think.
Because you should think whatever we tell
you to think.
NAOMI: Yeah, that's what professors are for,
right?
We just sort of indoctrinate you.
ROBERT: Yes, definitely.
Although usually we keep it on the down low,
right?
We don't usually say that out loud.
But first off is a very interesting student
opinion section on the New York Times.
And the New York Times is asking: Are video
games bad?
What do you think, Naomi?
Are video games bad?
NAOMI: That's a really complicated subject.
Like anything, there may be bad and good.
I'm interested that the New York Times is
still kind of on this tip.
That if you talk to people who write about
games for a living or think about games, of
course, they'll say...
Yeah.
This is a funny question to ask.
Of course, some of them are bad and some of
them are good.
The New York Times is still stuck in an era
where they feel like probably most of their
readership is thinking...
Games are awful.
And so it's interesting for them to put up
an Op Ed.
And let's be clear...
So this thing we're showing on the screen
is a student curriculum with a set of questions.
Do you think games are bad?
About an Op Ed that was published on Sunday
by Eve Peyser.
And I guess when reading this, my impression
was...
This is like the Op Ed version of that Lana
Del Rey song about video games, where video
games are sort of a prop in a lifestyle setting.
Right?
It's like...
Oh my boyfriend plays so many video games.
Maybe I could play them with him!
What would happen if I did that?
Right?
And so it's a story about a couple that decides
to play video games.
And they're playing like Earth Defense Force
and GTA.
Oh, they're so violent and gory!
Kind of missing from this picture is the idea
that there are any other types of video games
that maybe both people would want to play
equally and maybe women would want to play
video games and they're playing different
games from their partners, but how do you
find a game you want to play with your partner?
It is a challenge that game designers have
as well.
But this particular Op Ed is all about...
Well, there's one non-gamer, and obviously
it's the woman, in the heterosexual relationship.
It's like a straights problem, kind of thing.
How do you find games you want to play with
your partner?
ROBERT: I'm just so glad I have a husband
so I can play video games.
If you don't have a boyfriend, you can't play
video games.
NAOMI: Both of you like every game, because
you're both guys.
In my relationship, we don't play any games
at all, because we're both women and we both
hate games.
ROBERT: Of course.
It's really great that the New York Times
could help us clear all this up.
It really makes me feel good about the future.
NAOMI: But there's a happy ending.
Eve Peyser, the writer, discovers...
Oh, actually, it's really fun to shoot giant
bugs in Earth Defense Force or play an amoral
version of herself in GTA.
So I guess the lesson is everyone can like
amoral video games.
ROBERT: Even me!
Even you!
NAOMI: What?!
Let's go to the next news article.
Oh, Indiecade.
So Indiecade has announced its nominees.
We're really excited here at NYU, because
there's a bunch of games that were worked
on at NYU that are in the mix.
A couple from MFA students who just graduated,
including a game called Hell Couch, where
you summon a demon with your butt, by sitting
on an actual couch.
So it's got to be somewhere in there, right?
There's also another game from...
Some of the same designers, called Chroma,
an abstract board game.
And a puzzle game called Montcage, which is
about perspective and seeing things from a
different point of view.
And has...
Yeah, some really tricky puzzle elements that
are all about lining the camera up correctly.
ROBERT: I can't find them.
NAOMI: They might not all be on the page we're
looking at, but I promise you, these are all
nominated.
There's Montcage.
A thesis game from a couple years ago, or
a collection of games about intimacy...
That are roleplaying games for two to four
people.
Some of them are live action.
That intimacy collection is also gonna be
featured in Indiecade.
That's by MFA graduate Allison Kyran Cole.
Go on to the next one?
Ooh, Apple Arcade.
Yes, that is launching...
Is it launching today?
Is it the 19th?
Yes, today is Apple Arcade launch day.
So you would think this would be some sort
of enormous event in the game industry, but
I'm honestly not sure it is.
What's your take on Apple Arcade?
ROBERT: I have a lot of friends and I know
people launching a whole bunch of games.
But yeah.
I don't know what the actual word on the street
is.
Right?
We might have to add a segment to this program
where we go out on the street somehow.
And just ask random New Yorkers.
NAOMI: We just ask them...
So have you signed up for Apple Arcade?
ROBERT: No.
NAOMI: They don't know what Apple Arcade is.
So we can sort of just simulate that.
That's kind of the question on everyone's
mind.
Who is actually gonna sign up for Apple Arcade?
No one seems to know.
Game industry pundits aren't sure.
We actually have some colleagues here at the
Game Center -- they have a game called Dear
Reader.
It's launching today.
If you pay the subscription price.
And there's a bunch of other pretty big names.
The creators of Monument Valley, the studio
by a former Final Fantasy Square Enix creative
head.
Mistwalker Studio.
Sayonara Wild Hearts, that's from Simogo,
the creators of Device 6.
This is Mini Motorways from the creators of
Mini Metro.
So Apple is trying to get recognizable games
and faces, both to people who play JRPGs,
as well as mobile game hits.
But who are they trying to target?
It's not quite certain who is gonna pay $5
a month for this.
Do you have subscriptions to game services
like this?
ROBERT: We got Apple Arcade, but mostly just
because we were making games for Apple Arcade.
That's why.
We got an Apple TV so we could make games
for the Apple TV.
NAOMI: How about for platforms you don't develop
for?
ROBERT: For platforms I don't develop for?
I guess we got the PS4 subscription.
NAOMI: Do you have Nintendo Switch Online?
There are a couple of categories.
The console online subscriptions -- I'm gonna
say people mostly have them so they can play
multiplayer online games.
And then you get some games as an extra bonus.
Do you ever play any of the games that are
available temporarily for free from the Playstation
Online Service?
ROBERT: It's permanent, I think.
NAOMI: You just get them?
ROBERT: Yeah.
Please sponsor us, Sony!
You get one or two games for free.
But they're usually old games that are way
in their long tail and Sony signs a deal with
them to pay them pennies per copy.
NAOMI: I have this service.
I didn't know you could get them permanently,
or I would have been downloading them.
So we know people subscribe to that.
So they can play with other people online.
There are other services that are not doing
so well.
Twitch just canceled theirs, I think.
Oh, I'm sorry.
Not Twitch.
It's Discord.
That's the one that just shut down.
They had a subscribe and get games kind of
service.
But it's not clear that these things are gonna
work.
There's this fantasy that some people have
that...
What if I could have a Netflix for games?
Where I don't have to decide what to buy.
I just sign on and there are just all these
games there for free.
What do you think?
Is that ever gonna work?
ROBERT: No.
I don't think I like the idea of Google Stadia
and stuff like that.
I don't know if it's gonna work.
NAOMI: Do we even know how Google Stadia is
working?
Is it a subscription service?
ROBERT: I think no.
NAOMI: It's coming in November, a month and
a half away, but we still don't know how that
is gonna work, and Apple has tried to get
out in the gate in front of them.
People are talking about this stuff all over
the industry, but so far the conventional
wisdom is...
This really benefits people who are getting
in on the ground floor.
We're really happy and excite for all the
developers in Apple Arcade, because all those
die hard Apple fans who jump on everything
that Apple ever does, they're all gonna be
like...
I'm paying $5!
And they're gonna play those games and it's
gonna be exciting.
Plus here's some inside scoop.
I'm probably violating some kind of NDA here
but I didn't sign anything, so I don't care.
All of the developers in this initial pool
of 50 -- there's a pot of money that Apple
has already set aside for them.
And depending on how...
I think it's depending on how many people
play their game, they are gonna get just a
chunk of that pot.
So how much their game is played does matter.
But it's not actually coming from the $5 subscription
revenue.
Apple has already set it aside.
So the lesson for this, students and everyone
else, and who knows -- I might actually have
that wrong.
So just come at me, Apple lawyers.
It's fine.
I'm a professor.
We're here to do this kind of thing.
The lesson is: Get in as one of the launch
titles.
You'll make money.
Everyone after you?
Out of luck.
Okay.
ROBERT: Let's move on.
I can intro this one.
Okay, so some other news.
This is a piece over at the Verge, about how
two big streamers, Ninja and Tfue, have gone
off Twitch for whatever reason.
Ninja just got off Twitch.
Tfue needed a break for some reason.
But when you have a cult of personality around
these games, it affects the bottom line around
Twitch rankings and Twitch trackers and what
people are playing.
So it's just interesting to me about how these
people gravitate around these figures, and
follow them, in a way.
Or how these games are tied to people and
people are tied to games as well.
NAOMI: Does this mean Fortnite is making less
money, because Ninja and Tfue aren't streaming
it?
ROBERT: Maybe.
NAOMI: That 
would be huge.
The conventional wisdom around online games
is that they're sticky.
People get sucked into them.
But if it's really much more driven from moment
to moment, day to day, by streamers, that
would be a massive change.
ROBERT: Definitely.
We have to move on with the news stuff.
Because our next guest is getting antsy.
So other stuff going on.
This is from RPS.
Rock Paper Shotgun.
And this is an article about how Rockstar
is launching their own launcher.
And to launch their own launcher, they're
giving you one of the older Grand Theft Autos,
San Andreas, for free.
That's probably one of the better ones, actually.
So they're launching their thing, and the
rumor on the street is that this is to set
up their own Steam alternative for when they
launch their cowboy game sequel.
NAOMI: Red Dead Redemption online?
ROBERT: They haven't launched it for PC, I
believe.
NAOMI: This is a PC game launcher.
This is another salvo in the ongoing war against
Steam.
Everybody is cropping up.
Google is soon gonna be joining the fray with
Stadia.
So everyone is chipping away at the almost-monopoly
that Steam has.
Have you seen people furious about another
launcher popping up?
Or is it too soon?
ROBERT: It might be too soon to tell yet.
Partly because they give you a free game,
I guess.
But word on the street for this launcher is
that it does actually offer features on the
Epic Game Store.
It has cloud saving and stuff like that.
So it does maybe improve your gaming experience.
NAOMI: Because that's what people really want
in their game experience.
Good launcher features.
Around here, I think our opinion of these
launchers is driven by...
Is it good for developers, especially small
developers, or not?
If I had to bet, probably having more launchers
out there in an environment where they're
competing against each other is slightly better
for developers than an environment that is
totally dominated by Steam.
I've been noticing with fascination how many
players are mad about this.
Bennett was a little bit mad, even.
He's really attached to his Steam collection.
I'm one of these people...
I do not get it.
I don't carry what launcher I'm launching
my game from.
But some people are really attached to it.
This is why I think a Netflix of games won't
work.
Can you imagine subscribing to a launcher,
and then you can only play the games that
are in that launcher?
The people who are mad about having to download
a store to buy a game...
How much more mad will they be if they're
like...
Oh, can I get the latest such and such game?
And it's not in their subscription service?
They have to subscribe to a different one?
That's what you have to do with TV shows.
Those people's brains would melt if they had
to do that with games.
ROBERT: One other hot take on this...
As a solo indie developer, it's annoying to
negotiate all these contracts and deals with
all of these things.
So if we see a wider range of stores, it's
good for competition, but it will also mean
in the indie sector you're gonna see a lot
more people group up into mini-studios or
get more publishers, just because the overhead
of getting your game any distribution will
require you to talk to ten different platforms
in the future maybe.
Right?
NAOMI: Yeah.
That's a huge pain in the neck.
Including with Apple and mobile platforms
too.
Yeah.
It'll be interesting to see what happens.
The looming question behind all of this is:
Who has the bargaining power in this situation?
Should we wrap up news?
What do you think?
ROBERT: We had a bunch of news items.
I think we should just cut those short.
Maybe bring in our guest.
NAOMI: All right.
This is me signing off.
Naomi Clark.
Maybe I'll return for news in the future.
ROBERT: Yes, please.
Thanks, Naomi!
Bye!
Okay.
And now we have a new guest coming in.
So every week, in our broadcast, we also want
to make sure that we, like, highlight our
local Game Center community.
So every week, we want to do some kind of
student profile, ideally.
So our first student profile is here!
>> Hello!
Hi, Robert!
ROBERT: Hey!
>> Thank you for having me!
ROBERT: No problem!
Do you want to introduce yourself and talk
about yourself a little?
EMILY: Sure!
I'm Emily Koontz, I'm a senior in game design.
This is my last semester, because I'm graduating
early.
I've been in this program since I was a freshman
and I've primarily focused on studying the
type of play and games that are like folk
games and what circumstances and conditions
are conducive to making house rules and a
lot of community play.
But I've also made a lot of digital games.
All over the place.
Trying everything this program has to offer
out.
So it's been fun.
So yeah, I'm excited to be here.
ROBERT: Cool.
Do you have any favorite classes that you
like?
Or any favorite assignments or projects?
Just to give the viewers at home a little
taste of what it would be like to be a student
here at Game Center?
EMILY: Well, I think the most useful class
I've taken was definitely tackling representation
in games with Mattie Bryce, which is excellent.
It's essentially how to design ethically.
Because it's like...
How does what you're representing in your
games and your systems -- how does it reflect
the world?
What effect does it have on people and culture?
So that was definitely the most formative
of my practice.
Because I had never thought about those things
before.
I came in to this program being like...
Oh, I just want to make something fun!
And then I learned that it was much deeper
than that.
ROBERT: That's good too!
EMILY: It is good too.
And you can do both at the same time, which
is something I've learned, and I hope that
I continue to get better at, because I definitely
have, since I started coming here.
My favorite project or my favorite moment...
I was in narrative design with Clara.
And we did an assignment in class where we
made a LARP, and it took us like 20 minutes.
And our class decided that everyone was going
to be a different bird.
And the LARP was that you had to find your
bird soul mate.
So we ran around the Game Center and everyone
had a different bird and bird call.
And you had to flap your wings and do your
bird call and find your other bird soul mate.
And we got in a lot of trouble from the floor
manager.
We interrupted a lot of classes.
But it was really fun.
And it was a pretty fun LARP!
I want to go play it at a park.
It's wild on this floor.
It's a good time.
ROBERT: Yeah.
I mean...
It's always good to be a bird.
Bring out your inner bird.
And you know...
Well, it's not that okay to get the department
in trouble with the floor.
But you know what?
It's okay.
You're a student.
Students can try new things.
EMILY: We're pushing boundaries.
Innovation.
Innovation.
ROBERT: Innovation.
That's the I word we're gonna be using here.
Okay.
So up on the screen here, or up on this screen
here, I have one of your games.
Do you want to intro it?
While I play a little bit?
EMILY: Sure.
So this game was made for a class we have
called Pixel Prototype, which is currently
taught by Bennett Foddy, and we use PICO-8
to make games.
So this week, the theme was Crowds.
So this is Keg Beg.
And it's essentially about being at a frat
party and trying to get everyone's...
Oh, no!
It ran away.
So basically the idea behind this prototype
was I wanted to explore...
Because I like attention.
A lot of people like attention, and I wanted
to see the mechanics of being in a group of
people and trying to get everyone to listen
to you tell a story or talk, and how when
you lose your social graces, in this game,
which is representative of stuttering by running
into one of the various Ums or Ers, then everyone
runs away from you, and you lose all that
attention.
It's pretty hard to keep everyone's attention,
it turns out!
So I wanted to see what the mechanics are
of losing your social graces.
And trying to maintain this unsustainable
resource of other people's undivided time
and attention.
And so this game is about running around and
trying to do just that.
ROBERT: Do you want to show me how it's done?
What high score have you gotten on this game?
EMILY: Not very high.
Since they're going back and forth on this
screen, you kind of want to acquire people
to your right and left, rather than up and
down.
And then you'll have a better chance of not
running into anything.
But it's pretty hard.
Because once you've gotten enough attention,
you just keep getting more.
ROBERT: This is just like real life.
This is extremely realistic.
EMILY: This is my experience with every kegger
I've been to at a frat party, which...
NYU...
ROBERT: Yeah, how many keggers...
Does NYU...
EMILY: NYU has frats.
I went to one frat party.
They're like clubs.
And they're all way too crowded.
But you go out to the...
I'm from the Midwest.
So the frat parties in the Midwest are a little
different than the frat parties at NYU.
ROBERT: Yeah.
More of like a campus feeling, right?
More of a Greek Row.
Wait.
The party is over.
Only 0 people can stand you.
Uh-oh.
We didn't do too hot, did we?
You know, it's hard to get the boys.
Right?
EMILY: Yeah, it is hard to get the boys.
Especially at the NYU frat parties.
ROBERT: We love you, NYU frats.
Let's try some more of your games.
How about that?
EMILY: All right.
I've got one in mind for you to play, Robert.
ROBERT: I'm just gonna go to your Itch page.
EMILY: Sounds good.
Go to Pivot.
Yes.
I've been working on this, and I posted it
on Itch so you can play it.
Make it full screen.
There.
So the orientation is because I want this
to eventually be a mobile game.
This is something I've started working on,
on my own, outside of a class.
ROBERT: Oh my God.
EMILY: Yeah, so once you get the hang of it...
It's just right and left.
So this is the first game I ever...
You can just press and continue.
The first game I ever made outside of a class
-- digital game I ever made outside of a class
-- just for fun.
And it turns out a lot of people...
There's a lot of reactions to this game.
You're doing pretty well.
ROBERT: Talk me through the reactions.
Oh my God!
EMILY: So some people...
It's really hard for them to get...
Because you're rotating.
You press right and left and you rotate whatever
direction you press.
So that's a really hard thing for some people
to get the feeling of.
For whatever reason.
Some people have told me it's like riding
a bicycle, the more they do it.
But a lot of people who play this game will
get really determined to beat it and will
just start memorizing exactly what to press.
ROBERT: I'll try one more time.
EMILY: You can try as much as you want.
ROBERT: Argh!
Can you show me how it's done?
Can the master teach the pupil?
Okay.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah.
Sorry it's in the way.
EMILY: There's a pole in the way.
I'm really good at this game, I swear.
ROBERT: Yeah, Emily is really good at her
own game.
It's because I have all this lighting equipment
in front of the screen.
Oh my God.
You're so good.
Okay.
EMILY: So good.
Keep going?
ROBERT: Yes, please.
EMILY: I can definitely get past this level.
The next level, I've only beaten once.
ROBERT: Oh my God!
EMILY: When I develop the levels, I obviously
beat them once to make sure they're beautiful.
The people who are really good at this like
the hard levels, and people who don't pick
it up right away really think I should stop
after the first three.
But it's just...
ROBERT: I love the arcade feel of this.
This could totally work on a phone.
Right?
EMILY: That's why it's in this orientation.
I want it to be a mobile game.
Because it's one that you want to keep playing
and keep going until you perfect it.
ROBERT: It's all about the portrait orientation,
right?
EMILY: The portrait orientation.
ROBERT: No landscape.
Boo, landscape.
EMILY: I hate landscape.
ROBERT: It's all about portrait.
EMILY: On the subway, portrait is preferable.
I really have to say.
ROBERT: Oh, you can go the other way.
EMILY: You can go different ways.
I've been debating about if I want to keep
it...
So you can diverge like this.
But I think it helps you from getting burned
out.
Both ways are pretty equal in difficulty,
in my opinion.
Some people think that one would be more than
the other.
Should we play one more?
ROBERT: Do you have more games?
EMILY: I have one more that I'm ready for
you to play.
ROBERT: We did get pretty far, though.
EMILY: We did get pretty far.
There's one more level, if anyone wants to
try it at any point.
ROBERT: That's called Pivot, right?
EMILY: Pivot.
Now go to The Child.
So this game was inspired by Friedrich Nietzsche.
Which I know you have a lot of experience...
You've lectured on Nietzsche.
You've read a lot of Nietzsche.
So...
Yes.
I guess.
So you can go ahead.
ROBERT: So walk us through this, while I play.
EMILY: So this was inspired by Nietzsche's
Ubermensch.
Oh, you're pretty good at it.
So in the Ubermensch, or the Overman, in English
translation, Nietzsche talks about the three
stages of being people can accomplish.
The first is the camel.
Which was the previous stage, which Robert
beat pretty quickly.
This is the stage of the lion.
And once you beat the lion, there's a final
stage.
ROBERT: How do I beat the lion?
EMILY: That's the question.
ROBERT: So walk me through...
What does the lion mean?
EMILY: In this passage, the way I interpret
it, at least, the camel is what is...
Is the stage of life that we all are born
into, and we grow up and we're told all these
things we have to do.
We're told the way we should see the world.
We're told what success means.
How we should be living.
And most people...
To Nietzsche, 99% of people remain in the
camel phase their whole life.
They do things for the sake of what society
tells them and not for the sake of themselves.
So eventually, if you start critiquing these
forces that are telling you what to do...
ROBERT: How do I stop climbing?
EMILY: Oh, you're still climbing.
You're still climbing.
Oh!
ROBERT: So I escaped the lion.
And now what's this stage?
EMILY: Now you are the child.
The last stage.
So yeah, essentially...
We're camels, and then eventually we realize
all these forces upon us.
And when we realize them, we start saying
no to them.
So we turn into the lion and we say no to
everything we're supposed to do, and doing
things for the sake of what people tell us
to do.
And we stop doing everything that society
tells us we must.
But then eventually, because after saying
no to all these things, you have to start
to say yes to something.
So once you start doing that, and you start
doing things for the sake of yourself, you
turn into the child.
ROBERT: And the child just does things that
they...
I'm trying to learn Nietzsche strained through
this game, strained through you, repeating
it...
So...
The child does what they want?
Is that it?
EMILY: Yeah.
The child...
Has this wonder about them, where they're
interested and curious in all these things
for the sake of themselves.
So the child does do what they want.
So essentially this game is about not following
the directions I give you, and the visual
symbols I'm trying to make you...
Manipulate you by doing.
So the first stage, if you want to play it
again...
ROBERT: I didn't know I was speeding through
it.
EMILY: You did it really fast.
Some people do.
Some people don't.
So you see the instructions?
If you follow the instructions...
Try.
You have to stay on the ladder.
You slowly inch your way up the ladder.
ROBERT: That's hard.
EMILY: Yeah, it's really hard.
ROBERT: Wait, how did I beat it?
EMILY: Do you remember how you beat it?
See if you can beat it again.
ROBERT: Oh, wait, didn't I just press up?
EMILY: Yes!
So the first stage is about saying no to what
everyone tells you to do.
Saying no to this mechanic of climbing and
climbing to the moon in this case.
And we've got our little camel in the corner
to remind you of that.
And then you're the lion.
So you said no to this.
And it says stop climbing, but you keep climbing
no matter what you do.
So you'll climb and climb, until you'll eventually
decide to go a different direction, where
you become the child.
ROBERT: I think we're making Nietzsche proud.
EMILY: Yeah.
We're making games.
ROBERT: We're also making Charles Pratt proud
by invoking Nietzsche's name, I think.
EMILY: Good.
I'm glad.
I am minoring in philosophy, so I had to throw
a little philosophy into some of my games.
ROBERT: Great!
Do you have more games to show, or do you
think we're good?
EMILY: I think we're pretty good.
ROBERT: Okay.
Well, I don't see our special guest yet.
So do you want to hang out a little bit longer?
EMILY: Yeah, sure.
ROBERT: So I think what we'll do now is we're
gonna back to some of the news items that
we didn't catch before, and you can offer
some of your commentary, maybe.
EMILY: Exciting!
ROBERT: Okay.
Let me see.
What's this one?
What's this one?
Oh, okay.
So...
This is a story in Kotaku, where apparently
all across the internet, Nintendo made a new
cartoon bird and everyone was looking at this
cartoon bird and just collectively lost their
shit about this cartoon bird.
EMILY: Birds are important.
We've already established that.
Birds are...
You've got to be a bird sometimes.
ROBERT: But, like, are we really a bird?
When we're the Pokemon trainer, we're not
the bird.
We're, like, trapping this bird inside this
ball.
EMILY: Mystery Dungeon.
Then we could be the bird.
ROBERT: True enough.
Yeah.
I mean, Mystery Dungeon is good.
But if we scroll down, you can see that people
are trying to meme about this bird a lot.
People are really thirsty for this bird too,
it also seems.
EMILY: Wow.
ROBERT: Yeah, I don't know.
Maybe some of this isn't appropriate for Twitch.
We might get banned for some of these images.
Not even wearing clothes.
Right?
It's a naked bird.
Oof.
EMILY: A leaf shield.
ROBERT: Do you play a lot of Pokemon?
EMILY: Yeah, Farfetch'd, I played a lot when
I was younger.
So I'm way more familiar with the earlier
generations.
The first and second generation, actually,
my brother has a ton of Pokemon figures, so
me and my cousins used to play with the figures
a ton, almost more than the actual games.
And Farfetch'd was one of the figures I insisted
on having every time.
So seeing this little Farfetch'd baby, Sirfetch'd...
ROBERT: It's bringing you back.
EMILY: It's bringing me back.
Farfetch'd was so dear to me.
But Sirfetch'd seems so big!
Looking at those pictures.
So Farfetch'd might lose his crown.
I can sympathize with the internet right now.
ROBERT: I'm sure your brother will recover.
Okay.
Good.
Let's cover some other news articles I was
seeing around.
So...
Let's see.
This one.
This is a new report from GameDaily.biz, which
I've actually never heard of.
But this was the source I found.
They have an exclusive source that E3 2020
-- if you're not familiar, E3 is a big video
game industry media event that happens in
LA over the summer.
E3 2020 is proposing an overhaul of how they're
doing things, where instead of doing stuff
about, like, catering more to developers and
stuff, they're gonna also rebrand as specifically
an influencer festival.
EMILY: Whoa.
ROBERT: So they're gonna be bringing out...
EMILY: Fyre Fest!
Fyre Fest!
ROBERT: They're gonna bring...
EMILY: Fyre Fest 2, E3.
Let's all go to an island.
ROBERT: And what did they do?
They ate, like, bread.
EMILY: They didn't have any water or food.
There was a picture of the worst sandwich
in the world and that's all they had for two
days.
They kept giving them free drinks, though.
That was the one thing they did have, was
alcohol.
ROBERT: So we can all just go to E3 and not
drink water.
EMILY: Just get drunk and talk about Sirfetch'd.
That's the dream, right?
ROBERT: You know, I think that actually is
the plan.
And look at all these inclusive secret blueprints
or whatever that we're not supposed to see.
Oh my God.
Look at this leak.
And here's someone offering a hot take on
Twitter that Gamescom, the biggest kind of
PR games event over in Germany...
That's one of the biggest ones in the world,
and that has, like, more than 370,000 viewers,
that says.
Or attendees.
But E3 only has like 66,000 attendees now.
So what do you think?
Are you gonna go to E3?
EMILY: If it's anything like Fyre Fest, I'll
be there.
I'll be ready.
ROBERT: Fyre Fest was also really expensive,
right?
EMILY: I think that was the whole thing, was
that these people paid so much money to go
on this beautiful vacation, and then it turned
out to be like...
People were dehydrated and fighting for food
and beds.
ROBERT: It's hilarious.
But I mean...
Yeah.
I'm all for watching YouTubers suffer on camera.
That would be...
EMILY: At E3...
Suffering at E3 is a whole different type
of suffering than at Fyre Fest.
It could be a game changer.
ROBERT: I think Nietzsche would have a lot
to say about E3, right?
EMILY: I think he would.
ROBERT: Let's move on to some more news items.
Is our guest out there?
No.
Let's move on to some more news items.
Let's see.
Oh.
So this is a news item that I picked out.
It's kind of going around European indie Twitter
right now.
This is from Games Wirtschaft.
And it says A MAZE Festival 2020.
If you're not familiar, it's one of the best
games festivals around.
Are you familiar with it?
EMILY: No, but my roommate went to it last
year and he loved it.
ROBERT: What was so cool about it?
EMILY: It was a lot chiller.
It wasn't as networky as some other festivals
he's been to.
So he really enjoyed it.
ROBERT: Right.
A MAZE is like the opposite of E3, kind of.
It happens in Berlin.
Berlin is super cool.
It's like the new New York.
New York sucks, you know.
It's all about Berlin now.
Although I hear Berlin is over too.
But some really serious news happening is
that...
According to Games Wirtschaft...
Let's see if my German is okay.
The Berlin cultural counsel or congress or
senate or whatever...
Has denied additional funding to A MAZE 2020,
which means it might not happen anymore.
EMILY: That's pretty disappointing!
I wanted to go at one point.
That's such a shame, though.
It seems like everyone who goes really loves
it.
Marie, who is here with us, went to A MAZE
when she went to Berlin and was saying how
amazing it was, and how it was one of the
highlights of her time in Berlin.
It seems like the community there really loves
it and depends on it.
It's really bad news.
ROBERT: It's kind of messed up, too.
What was the Berlin cultural senate...
Senatsverwaltung...
What were they thinking, right?
EMILY: People just don't value games the way
they used to, I guess.
ROBERT: Whippersnapper.
EMILY: Back in the day, when I was young.
ROBERT: Although it is an interesting contrast
to the US landscape, where the prospect of
the city funding games is actually very rare.
At least they could apply for money.
Here in the US, it's actually really hard
to apply for money from, like, any kind of
city or municipal thing.
Because they'll be like...
Video games?
Why do you need money for that?
EMILY: Yeah.
I've never tried to apply to my city for money
for a game.
Because I didn't even know that was something
that can happen.
That's a cool resource that I wish was more
widespread, because you would probably get
cooler games, because my whole big thing is
community involvement.
Communities of people could engage with their
friends and their family in a public space,
which would be super cool.
But...
ROBERT: Yeah.
It's a huge shame.
I wish I knew a very fitting German expression
to express anguish and shame.
But I don't.
If you have any, just suggest some in the
chat and I'll gladly try to pronounce it.
Some more news items...
Is Marie out there?
So...
Oh, this is kind of interesting.
So this is a report from Rock Paper Shotgun.
It's talking about how in the UK parliament,
they have made a suggestion to the game industry
that the game industry needs to start taking
problem gaming more seriously.
And problem gaming...
I guess they define as kind of all the loot
box stuff going on, all the slot machine stuff
going on.
Where a lot of game mechanics and monetization
stuff looks kind of similar to, like, gambling.
And then we're marketing these games towards
children, and also these children watch their
favorite YouTube personalities or favorite
Twitch personalities...
You know..
Gamble and have so much fun with loot boxes,
and it makes children want to play with loot
boxes too.
So this is trying to unpack 
loot box legislation or how do we legalize
or think about this stuff.
What are your thoughts about loot boxes or
gambling or money in games?
EMILY: Well, ideally, we would have designers
who understand how these systems affect the
people who are engaging with them.
And would design with that in mind.
Which is not to perpetuate problematic things
like...
Gambling addiction or intrigue.
Gambling intrigue, as we all...
Because our next segment, Robert and I are
gonna play some poker!
ROBERT: I mean, why not?
EMILY: But that would be the ideal situation.
That we're all as designers educated to how
these things affect people.
Because the people creating these things is
what it comes down to.
But since games are an economy, out of the
in-game economy, and in the real-world economy,
I think there's a lot of other intentions
of designers, when designing these things,
trying to get money out of vulnerable people,
and so I always hesitate to promote regulation
of any kind, because it can be limiting, and
sometimes I think it can have adverse effects.
But that's the capitalist systems that are
making these games.
Maybe...
I'm not sure.
How do you feel?
ROBERT: I think that's totally right.
I think it's really important that we study
these things.
And take them seriously.
Because games do, like, affect us.
Right?
That's one central premise behind making a
whole game design department.
Right?
That games are important to culture and media,
and they're worth funding, they're worth supporting.
So we shouldn't just say games don't affect
people this other way.
Games never do anything bad.
Right?
That's kind of naive and silly.
If we say games do so much good in the world
and games are so important to us, and we can
play games with our boyfriends and stuff,
right?
We should also say...
No, games can also corrupt our boyfriends
too.
And stuff like that.
EMILY: Media Studies 101 with Robert Yang.
ROBERT: So our special guest is here, so I'm
gonna boot you out, unfortunately.
EMILY: Hi!
Thanks for having me, again!
ROBERT: Thanks for coming, Emily!
Okay.
Our next guest is someone who you'll be seeing
shortly at our lecture series.
And someone who I hinted might appear during
our announcements.
And that is Marie Foulston.
Hello!
How are you?
MARIE: I'm good.
I feel like I'm a bit in at the deep end.
ROBERT: What do you mean, deep end?
MARIE: Straight in to camera.
ROBERT: That's how we do it.
We're all New York.
We're in your face.
We're also low budget.
We're kind of flying on this broadcast by
the seat of our pants, trying to put things
together.
So thanks a lot for humoring me and coming
along.
MARIE: Thanks for having me.
I was slightly upset -- I saw you put this
green screen up in your office and I expected
to be up there, because I had never done green
screen before, but instead I like this BBC
News Setup where we can see students in the
background.
ROBERT: Yeah.
I like this setup.
Look at all the scholarship and hard work
going on back there.
Gosh, they're just so smart and talented.
Wait.
Why are they all...
A bunch of them are seated away outside the
camera view.
I guess they don't want to be on camera.
Which is fine.
It's understandable.
It's okay.
But anyway...
Now they're looking at me, because they're
watching the stream as I point at them.
Anyway...
Okay.
So, Marie, you're giving us a lovely lecture
series talk tonight about all your work, all
the important stuff you do.
So...
Tell us first I guess a little bit about game
curation.
What does game curation mean to you?
MARIE: What does it mean to me?
Oh, I can hold the mic.
So I work as a play curator, and predominantly
what that means for me is being someone who
thinks about what it means to put video games
and game design into a public context.
I think curation can have a whole host of
different meanings.
We can think in terms of collections curators,
archivists, historians, but this aspect I
focus on is exhibition and display and interpretation.
Yeah.
ROBERT: You can interview me now.
Define interpretation.
What do you mean by interpretation here?
Is that big?
Is that a big thing?
MARIE: No, that's not a big thing.
All of this is a big question.
What does curation mean to me?
I'm somebody who at the moment is in the middle
of a research fellowship and trying to really...
As someone who doesn't come from a formal
background of curation, that I've gone through...
I guess I don't consider myself having come
from a formal background.
I feel like I've always gone in at the deep
end, sort of gone in to things back to front,
where now is a period of time where after
working on a V and A exhibition and working
as part of Old Rumpus, I'm working on an exhibition
that is trying to embed my understanding of
games theory into practice and finding out
how other people approach it.
My brain has exploded a bit and I'm trying
to pull the pieces back together.
But in terms of what game interpretation means...
Thinking about the way you communicate or
what narrative or story you're presenting
about a specific object or work within a public
space.
When you're bringing a game in, it's thinking...
Normally we think of interpretation as being
sort of quite reduced down to the text that
you you might have alongside an object.
The reason I've got Robert Yang on display
is all encapsulated in this little interpretation
label that's gonna sort of explain it.
Whereas interpretation can be much broader
than that.
It can be the way an object is displayed,
the way an object manifests in a space.
So yeah, interpretation is sort of how you're
communicating why you're exhibiting or what
it is that you're looking to present about
a work.
Put some background or context to it.
ROBERT: You mentioned stuff with Wild Rumpus
and stuff.
We actually have this stuff on screen a little
bit.
MARIE: There's a photograph.
ROBERT: Tell us about that photograph.
What are people seeing?
Big Leaf?
MARIE: So this is a photograph of...
Is this the photo that's up at the moment?
Or is it that one?
There we go.
So yeah, the practice or the space or the
curation work I was doing during my time at
the V and A was when I was part of an LA collective
called Wild Rumpus, which was six people.
It was born out of a desire to create different
playful spaces to exhibit alternative video
game design.
This particular picture is of an event that
we do at GDC, which is called Mild Rumpus.
ROBERT: Mild Rumpus.
MARIE: Mild can be nice and sort of relaxing.
Not depressing.
ROBERT: Wild?
MARIE: Mild.
Yeah, anyway, we're very smart in that we
realized if we turned the W upside down, it
made another word.
We talked about Child Rumpus, primarily for
children, Tiled Rumpus, which would wipe clean
very easily...
But anyway, the picture we're looking at is
Wild Rumpus.
This is a space where we showcase alternative...
And independent works at GDC each year, and
it's supposed to be sort of a contrast to
the sort of mood or tone of the convention,
and just...
As we term it sometimes...
Being the acceptable place to nap at GDC.
But this particular picture as well has a
picture of...
You could see a group of developers sat in
a giant heart-shaped metal leaf in the middle.
Which was a story in itself of...
Oh, God.
And the way they designed it.
I don't know if we have time to talk about
how hard it was to get that leaf on the floor,
because there were no doors going from the
loading bay to the front of the Moscone, to
fit the leaf through, so it had to come down
this giant escalator with 30 staff marching
it down, and we're all observing it, praying
that they didn't drop it and kill a load of
people.
But they didn't.
And it survived.
Yeah.
So that's that picture.
ROBERT: Okay.
And...
Enough about the leaf.
Let's move on.
MARIE: That's a book.
ROBERT: Tell us about what we're seeing.
What is this lovely amazing book we're looking
at?
MARIE: So this publication is...
The exhibition catalog for the exhibition
that I curated at the V and A last year.
A lovely exhibition catalog.
It has a variety of essays by authors and
game designers.
Yours truly included.
So it's a publication that -- we're bringing
together a series of articles and writings
from different authors, focusing on games
that were in the exhibition and people sort
of talking about them and presenting them,
from the perspective of how we viewed them
within the exhibition.
The publication design was art directed by
the wonderful Darren Wall and designed by
the wonderful Rachel Dalton.
Darren Wall does Read Only Memory, some wonderful
video game publications.
So if you're interested in video game publications
that are beautifully designed, you should
definitely look at Read Only Memory and their
work.
I know.
Robert asked me to send a series of images,
so I bundled them together.
There's a whole range of images that are gonna
come up in a random order.
This is gonna be like a pot luck.
ROBERT: Yeah, it's like a fun game.
MARIE: Oh, it's an exhibition but it's from
halfway through the exhibition.
ROBERT: Do you want me to scroll through?
MARIE: Yeah, this is a photograph of the exhibition.
That's something that was not at the exhibition.
It's an inspiration for the exhibition.
ROBERT: Do you want me to try to find it?
So that the exhibition mode is in order?
MARIE: We can just skip ahead a few.
Da-da-da.
That's a good picture of the exhibition.
Look.
It's some people installing the exhibition
at V and A. I took this photograph and I was
really pleased with the lighting in this photograph.
ROBERT: I can talk a little bit so you can
have some time to relax.
Yeah, so...
If you didn't catch from all this conversation,
Marie was lead curator at Victoria and Albert
Video Games Exhibition.
Did I say that right?
And as lead curator, Marie put together a
lot of this...
All these amazing materials.
Unfortunately, the exhibition is, like, closed.
And gone right now.
Right?
MARIE: Temporarily.
So it ran at the Victoria and Albert Museum
from February 2018 to 2019.
And then a week or so ago, it was at V and
A Dundee.
Now it's closed and traveling to somewhere
else in the world which will be revealed within
time.
It's not dead and buried.
It's just in transit.
ROBERT: Oh, so it's a surprise announcement.
We'll find out soon.
Oh my God.
So...
One thing that I was really struck by, when
I visited the exhibition, was just...
Yeah.
The whole exhibition design here was just
so, like, masterfully done.
Can you talk a little bit about how you approached
designing the kiosks and the walls and stuff?
MARIE: Ooh, yeah.
So the exhibition design was...
We worked with a host of different designers
for the exhibition.
So sometimes you would work with a 3D designer
or an architect, and it's their responsibility
to really think about the architecture or
the sort of...
The physical makeup of the space.
We also worked with a company called Squint
Opera, who focus on audio-visual design, but
also interactive design.
Those were the digital components of the exhibition.
We had Julia, who focused on graphics, two-dimensional
design, and Coda to Coda, who were sound designers.
So it's really a collaborative sort of team
that you have to have.
So many different sort of disciplines coming
into exhibitions.
But it's like designing a video game!
It was actually something that...
One of the images that our 2D designers used
in the presentation...
It's a picture of a cat on the street with
a single light shining on it, and the caption
said: If video games have taught me anything,
I know this cat has a mission for me.
So it was something for them as 2D designers
and thinking about the signage and the wayfinding
through the exhibition that there were some
considerations that...
Hang on a minute.
Video game and level design know how to direct
people's attention.
So that in turn sort of resulted in why some
of our exhibition signage was illuminated,
because of that cat.
ROBERT: Let's go back!
MARIE: So yeah, you can see some of the signs
that we had, that were illuminating the exhibition.
But I think it's something interesting that
is specifically...
Well, not just specific to video games, but
something about digital design is that unlike
a lot of traditional sort of exhibitions,
where you're dealing with sort of traditional
standard sort of static material objects,
when you're looking to design an exhibition
space to sort of house and exhibit those,
you're looking to create the environment that
those will sit within.
But when it comes to digital objects, actually
you need sort of designers and you need to
be working with designers.
You need to be working with architects to
even understand how those objects will manifest
within a space.
So I think when it comes to digital design
and when it comes to video game design, the
design of an exhibition space and the design
of the objects actually is something which
is much more collaborative, and you have to
work as a curator in a much more collaborative
sense.
For us, for myself and Christian Waltz, the
research curator, we worked on the exhibition
for a year or so before we had the exhibition
designers come in.
It's normally quite standard for an exhibition.
You'll spend a lot of time in research, you'll
come out and have a big list of objects, you'll
know the dimensions of the objects and know
how you want them exhibited, but for this
subject, we don't really know how to manifest
a lot of the stuff in this space.
You need to work more collaboratively.
Because it feels like part of the curatorial
team is missing.
'til you have people to work with to have
different ways of showcasing digital objects.
ROBERT: Yeah, and I think all that work really
paid off, because I was super impressed with
the care taken with all the different objects.
Is there a photo with some of the objects
on days play?
MARIE: Maybe.
Let's go through and see.
Those are some of the objects.
The slide just before that?
Or this one.
You can stop at this one.
Actually...
No.
Brackets.
That's me!
Yeah.
The Nintendo one.
There we go.
This showcases just some of the artifacts.
And objects that we brought into the exhibition.
The exhibition consisted of three different
sort of exhibition spaces.
All of which had different motivations or
were trying to look at games through different
lenses.
This is a snapshot of some of our conservators
and exhibition managers installing a display
for Splatoon.
We were looking at the materiality of game
design.
Whereas the second section that we saw before
with the big illuminated cubes...
This was the second section, where we wanted
to look at the social and political conversations
being had about video games.
And this was the most complex one.
Because how do you know how to exhibit a conversation
or a discussion in a public space?
And the last two spaces, which I've not seen
a photo of, although the one with my big earrings...
ROBERT: It's a great photo.
MARIE: Yeah, for the opening I bought these
earrings which I called the Big Buns, which
were these fluffy bunny rabbit heads.
Nobody took a decent picture of me during
the exhibition opening, but thankfully a week
or two later, someone from the New York Times
was like...
We want to photograph you for the article.
I'm like...
I want to wear the earrings, because if I
didn't get any pictures of myself during the
opening, I'm gonna be cemented in history
during this New York Times article.
And that's why I put this picture into a lot
of presentations that I give.
It's to get my money's worth out of the earrings.
But the exhibition.
That's the point we were making.
The last two spaces of the exhibition were
looking at video games from the perspective
of the player.
So there was a big massive sort of space which
was showcasing sort of a video of different
player communities and different ways of interacting
with games.
And the very last space, which is here, was
much more of a DIY arcade of looking at niche
DIY video game communities and games that
are sort of spectacle and performance.
ROBERT: So one thing I would like to connect
here is: In this last room, there's actually
a lot of stuff from Babycastles in there.
And Babycastles, again, if you're not familiar,
is a local DIY punk video game style performance/music
space, that is pretty much...
That is very near here.
So if you're a student here at Game Center,
you should definitely be checking out Babycastles,
so you can check out the stuff before the
rest of the word discovers it and curates
it.
You'll be on the bleeding edge of stuff and
then you'll go to a big museum exhibition.
You'll be like...
I saw that when it was...
MARIE: Before it was boring and stuffy in
a museum!
ROBERT: Or...
I mean, I saw it before it was cool.
No, Babycastles is very cool all the time,
though.
Right?
MARIE: Yeah, and there's Wonderville as well
and Death By Audio and other spaces in New
York as well.
ROBERT: Yeah, there's so many New York spaces.
It's important to check out these spaces and
support them.
Because you can also get involved with them
as well and then your work will be curated
in a giant museum and people will take really
awesome photos of you with your awesome earrings.
You know?
Do we want to talk about anything else here?
Oh, it's repeating.
Okay.
Wait.
So what is this one?
MARIE: Yeah, this is not the exhibition.
This is me just sending some random pictures
to Robert and being like...
What are we gonna talk about?
I'll probably talk about this a little bit
more this evening, when I'm giving a lecture
here at NYU at 7:00 pm.
ROBERT: Don't spoil it for the viewers!
MARIE: This is not a spoiler.
This is just sort of like a teaser.
A lot of this is stuff that I'm gonna sort
of be coming back to.
But this is an installation or a work by the
artist Harun Farocki, and it's his series
Parallels 1 to 4.
And for me, it's an installation that I find
quite inspiring, in terms of the way that
it opens up video game design within a public
space.
That I think traditionally one of the things
that we say that we sort of sought to do with
the video game exhibition was to identify
and experiment with new curatorial languages
and different curatorial languages for video
games.
And I say that sort of in contrast to the
fact that a lot of exhibitions tend to focus
on sort of the playable object as being the
sort of central artifact or the key thing
that you will exhibit.
But this display is something that I saw at
the Whitechapel Gallery a few years ago, and
it's a display where you aren't playing any
of these games.
You're sitting and watching a series of different
playthroughs and different sort of videos
that he's created, to sort of...
Just sort of show some of the different play
styles that he took with those games.
And there's four different sort of screens
here and four different installations.
But for some of those, some of the things
that he's doing is, say, playing a game like
LA Noir, but he's playing it in this very
intentional way, where he's pushing the NPCs'
behavior in a certain way, or trying to travel
in a certain direction but pushing up the
invisible boundaries that the games have put
in place to prevent him from traveling in
one direction.
It's very intentional.
Very directed play style of those games.
And for me, in terms of what that does as
an exhibition, to me, that communicated game
design and showed the materiality of those
games in a way that actually many exhibitions
where they give you the chance to get hands
on with those works have not managed to do.
For me, the thing I love about this work,
and it's something I think about a lot with
curation and thinking about what it means
to try and bring or to try and interpret game
design or video games in public spaces is
thinking actually: We need to think beyond
just the playable object.
We need to think of different styles and different
ways of approaching it.
While this is obviously the work of an artist,
for me, this is an area that I'm interested
in exploring as a curator, with really directed
sort of play styles and how that can open
up the materiality of games as an object.
ROBERT: So this is super interesting to me.
Because I think what's happening a lot in
games right now is a lot of focus on performance.
Right?
A lot of stuff going on in Twitch.
Hello.
But also stuff like...
The GTA Deer Cam, or Ian Chang.
There's a lot of stuff about procedure and
performance, and trying to, like, expose how
a performer or something moves through the
space.
So this seems like a really interesting, like,
parallel to a lot of the stuff going on outside
of games or outside of the art world.
Right?
MARIE: Yeah.
And this is sort of -- not wanting to talk
too much about what I'll talk about this evening,
but this is sort of where my brain is beginning
to sort of explode a little bit.
It'll become a little bit...
Sometimes a little bit untethered, because
for me, with a lot of the research that I've
been doing, it has sort of really pushed me
to step back from video games and also step
back from exhibitions and sort of try to strip
away my assumptions and my impressions of
what these actually are.
What our assumptions are of these spaces,
of different works.
And think...
Actually, what actually is a video game as
an object?
And one of the things that I'm really interested
in exploring is this idea of video games as
performance.
That we focus so much on the materiality and
the variables of video games as an object,
and in curation, a lot of the conversations
at the moment from larger institutions are
focused on this emulation and preservation
of a video game as a playable work.
But I think the thing that that sometimes
has the ability to undermine or to perhaps
sort of ignore is thinking...
That no two people will play a video game
in the same way.
No two people will experience that game as
the same design artifact or the same design
object.
It actually...
A video game is not sort of...
And there is not just one performance of a
video game.
There's always infinite performances that
you can take with that object.
And so when we're thinking about preserving
a game, we're thinking about preserving that
sort of...
Perhaps slightly tangible artifact...
Actually, what else is it that we should be
considering, when we're considering the variables
of the object but we need to think of the
variables of the players and the time within
which you're playing and the context within
which you're playing.
That's what this really gets at, is thinking
of game as performance.
This is a capture of one single performance,
a very intentional performance, that shows
one aspect of that game.
That potentially having your hands on a controller
might not.
It's stuff that people like Brenda Laurel
think about.
This idea of computers as theater.
And how does that apply to games?
And also as curators, how does that potentially
begin to open up our perspective of what it
is that we're actually focusing on exhibiting
and how we might exhibit them?
ROBERT: Oh my God, so many questions.
Amazing.
Amazing.
Okay.
I won't keep pushing you to spoil your talk
or tease your talk too much.
So maybe now is a good time to move on to
another thing that we want to do here.
At Game Center Live.
In addition to hosting special guests and
stuff, we also want to bring it back to general
Twitch Let's Play culture and stuff.
So one fun thing that I thought...
Or at least I thought it would be fun...
Was if every special guest could choose a
game that they would like to play on stream,
and then we can, like, hang out and play it,
so they're not under pressure to explain their
career and research and stuff.
MARIE: I'm just at a point where I'm opening
up my whole sort of area of thinking about...
What does game curation mean?
Being asked that question, I feel like I just
want to stare at the camera for half an hour
and have a bit of a breakdown.
But yeah, playing is much better.
ROBERT: You did that without the breakdown
and it was lovely and extremely lucid, and
I'm sure our students got a lot of out of
it.
But do you want to intro what this game is?
While I switch over to it?
MARIE: I didn't prepare an intro.
ROBERT: Just talk about it.
MARIE: This is a video game by Richard Hogg
and Ricky Haggett.
From Hollow Ponds.
And this is a game of storing things and organizing
things.
This is Wilmot's Warehouse, in which we play
as a small white cube...
There are some logos coming up on the screen.
We play as a small white cube and we're gonna
put things into a warehouse.
Every now and again, people are gonna come
into that warehouse and they're gonna want
to get things from us.
So we're going to organize the warehouse to
be able to bring those objects to those people.
One of the things that I really like about
this game is obviously I'm very good friends
with Richard Hogg and Ricky Haggett, and they
are both people who are part of Wild Rumpus,
the games collective that I'm in.
And you had an article on the screen about
Parliament before, that was written by Alice
O'Connor, who is also another member of Wild
Rumpus.
I'm glad we've got good representation of
different Rumpus people today.
ROBERT: Good cross-Atlantic relations, right?
MARIE: Yeah, so these are two good friends
from Wild Rumpus who collaborated to make
this game, and one of the things I like about
this is Wilmot's face, the two little eyes
and the nose and the mouth, which is the ASCII
face that...
If you ever put a little ASCII face into a
text, that's what he would put in.
So I'm like...
Oh, look.
It's like getting a text message from Dick.
Oh, look!
Thank you.
Warehouse training.
Move the banana to the banana square.
What is the banana square?
ROBERT: You can't see my cursor.
Hold on.
MARIE: He's just doing it invisibly.
ROBERT: Did you want to play it?
Or did you want to talk about it, commenting?
MARIE: I was hoping we would be able to play
it co-op.
ROBERT: But then who is holding the mic?
MARIE: We would have to play co-op down here?
ROBERT: I have a controller.
You can play second player.
We can play co-op if you want.
MARIE: I've not had a chance to play co-op.
So I was hoping we would get a chance to.
And that will give us a chance to -- instead
of just seeing Wilmot, we'll see his pal,
Wally, his co-op assistant, which...
Richard confirmed on Twitter the other day
that his name is Wally.
Stalling whilst Robert unwinds the length
of...
I've been playing this on Switch as well.
So I feel very comfortable with that interface.
I'm used to using the Switch to do it.
So either way...
Yeah, that's fine.
See what the button do.
Oh, tea break.
Nice big tea caddy.
Who is that with the round nose?
Yes, I'm moving.
ROBERT: I'll hold the mic.
I don't think there's any way to prop this.
Maybe I can just be kind of useless.
And dance around you, while you do all the
work.
MARIE: Hey!
ROBERT: We have to get the...
Wait, can we co-op together to grab these
horseshoes?
I try to grab this...
Oh, no.
MARIE: This is what happens when Robert doesn't
pull his weight.
Look how much work I'm trying to do here to
move these horseshoes.
They're made out of metal.
They're very heavy.
ROBERT: I'll block your way.
Does this help?
MARIE: That was a big help, thanks.
ROBERT: You can push me out of the way, though.
MARIE: Yeah.
See, what happens if...
Yeah, no.
Excuse me, sorry.
ROBERT: Rotate it.
MARIE: We need to wait a little bit before
we've got that ability.
ROBERT: You're the master here.
I haven't played much.
MARIE: Yeah.
Hats.
We're gonna put hats up here.
Three little fezzes.
ROBERT: I think I'm doing okay.
MARIE: Yeah.
ROBERT: I think these are winter objects,
right?
MARIE: I would say, if I was going to...
Yeah.
The igloo looks like it could take the shape
of a hat if you wanted it to, but conventionally,
I would file that under winter, yeah.
I keep trying to rotate these, even though
I know I can't rotate these yet.
I did all my work, so I'm gonna just sit here.
ROBERT: Wait, I can't fit!
Marie, help!
What do I do?
MARIE: I'll just shift this guy away.
ROBERT: And then you can...
Oh, okay.
MARIE: Just shove it.
ROBERT: Wait.
Wait.
Those are both winter and hats.
MARIE: What a dilemma.
Well...
I'll select all the hats.
Wear this hat.
I think we should also...
Let's just put this in winter as well.
ROBERT: That's good.
To hedge our bets a little bit.
MARIE: I don't know if this is good filing
techniques, in terms of splitting...
What's the Dewey Decimal System for objects
in this warehouse?
ROBERT: I think we'll have to invent it, immediately.
MARIE: Bloop!
ROBERT: Look, I'm helping, I'm helping.
Wait.
You just took that.
Oh my God!
MARIE: Fine, do it yourself.
ROBERT: Let me help!
Let me help!
I'm a child.
I'm sorry.
Okay.
There.
Agh!
MARIE: We've not even gotten out of the tutorial
yet.
ROBERT: We're doing good.
Our characters are smiling.
MARIE: Yeah.
Happy workers.
ROBERT: Oh, it's split screen.
Oh.
What's that?
MARIE: We're getting a delivery.
The warehouse -- I think a guy who's got a
plug for a head.
We've got some trains.
ROBERT: Is that the northern rail icon?
MARIE: Yes.
Does that not mean train to you?
I've never seen these before.
I've had those in my warehouse before.
Never had cups of tea.
I had these shapes.
Now, this is where it's...
ROBERT: So we need to unpack these, right?
We need to put these where we can find them.
MARIE: And this is where I'm curious to see
how co-op goes.
ROBERT: Oh, I can double click them?
Oh my God.
That's so useful.
MARIE: Having two people's decisions about
what and how to have different filing techniques.
I do have very specific ideas about what constitutes
good filing.
ROBERT: I like putting this orange thing next
to this orange thing.
MARIE: That's red.
ROBERT: That's not red.
It's orange.
MARIE: It's Reddy-orange.
ROBERT: The bomb?
It's orange!
MARIE: Reddy-orange.
ROBERT: But it's similar.
We're fighting.
Oh my gosh.
MARIE: We've got 20 seconds left.
ROBERT: We're grabbing our inventory...
MARIE: This is the game I played most during
the summer.
Trying to take a lot of philosophical life
lessons from...
ROBERT: Oh, gosh.
Tea is cozy.
Are those boots or socks?
MARIE: They look like wellington boots.
Those are wellies.
You can put them next to the cups of tea.
ROBERT: So they're for rain, right?
So cozy.
MARIE: Look at this mess, though.
If someone is gonna come in and ask for tea...
All these wellington boots blocking the way...
Let's put them up here.
There we go.
In the game that I was playing, the first
time I was playing this, I had very specific
ideas about the way that I developed this
sort of system of the warehouse.
And that was all fine.
Until online there was a lot of people sharing
the different sorting systems that they created
for their warehouses.
Oh, God.
Look at the mess you're making!
ROBERT: Why is that bad?
It's yellow.
It's soap.
MARIE: Yeah, soap dispenser.
But how are we gonna get to the thing behind
it, if anybody wants it?
ROBERT: What do they want?
MARIE: Thanks.
Thanks.
ROBERT: So we need tea.
A file.
Where do I get files?
I'll get this one.
MARIE: I keep hitting the wrong button.
I'm getting everything at the moment.
ROBERT: You can get everything all at once?
MARIE: Here we go.
He only wanted one cricket.
Sorry.
ROBERT: That's the majority of the stars.
That's not bad.
MARIE: There we go.
ROBERT: So now what do we do?
MARIE: We've got a new delivery.
Some new product lines being added to the
warehouse.
We've got that.
A nice pattern.
Another nice pattern.
Red, blue, white.
Thermometer.
And what's that?
ROBERT: Upside down shark fin?
MARIE: Upside down shark.
Aquatic.
Back to work.
But the issue...
The problem or the mistake that I made was
that I looked at different people's filing
techniques, and realized that other people
had...
Oh, where am I going?
I have to just watch the delivery come in.
ROBERT: Oh my God.
MARIE: That I didn't have as good a filing
technique as other people.
And so I foolishly tried to rework my warehouse
to copy some of these other people, who had
different techniques, and it completely messed
up my game, because I think so much about
the way that you organize your warehouse is
so connected to your own decisions about the
way in which you connect different objects.
I just felt this huge anxiety of seeing other
people and seeing the way that other people
work and realizing that...
Wait, I'm not good enough.
And other people are better and I need to
copy them.
But in trying to copy people, I messed up
my own warehouse and I just created more problems
for myself long-term, so the big life lesson
I took away from that is that sometimes you're
gonna do things different from other people,
and that's okay.
You should just embrace your way of doing
things, because there's more than one way
of doing things.
But when we're doing co-op and I'm doing things
correctly and you're doing things wrong...
ROBERT: I'm not doing it wrong!
I put the files next to the files.
MARIE: Move that soap.
ROBERT: Look.
Wait, what's wrong?
MARIE: There we go.
When they come and ask for it...
ROBERT: How do you know they're gonna ask
for it, though?
MARIE: They might do at some point.
I don't know, but I'm anticipating that that
might be a request in the future.
ROBERT: I'm gonna try to get more stuff.
I'm gonna be helpful.
I'm gonna get these sharks.
MARIE: Seven seconds.
I'm just reorganizing things.
This is not...
This is not me at my most efficient.
Ready.
Not ready.
Quick!
Two thermometers.
Two star things.
Two horseshoes.
Bloop bloop!
ROBERT: I'll get the thermometer.
MARIE: I'll get the cups of tea.
Two stars.
Bloop!
ROBERT: They wanted two thermometers?!
MARIE: Greedy.
ROBERT: Okay.
Do we clock out here?
MARIE: Yeah.
Wahey!
We've got more stars.
ROBERT: So what do stars do?
MARIE: Stars are...
You get little upgrades with the stars.
And also it's just nice to earn a gold star
or a white star.
ROBERT: Well, I rarely give out positive feedback
in my classes, so I wouldn't know that feeling.
MARIE: You don't give out little sticky stars?
ROBERT: Give out little gold stars in my classes?
Maybe.
MARIE: Oh, what's coming in this one?
Magnets.
ROBERT: Magnets.
That's...
That's a menu button on an iPhone.
MARIE: Yeah.
We're gonna turn the phone off by swiping
it.
ROBERT: Yeah, right?
That's the little swipey...
Oh.
Do one more round?
MARIE: I'm slightly anxious at the fact that
there is no...
At least for me there's no discernible order
in the warehouse at the moment.
Everything is just put everywhere.
Which is just chaos.
It's like a messy bedroom.
ROBERT: But you just told me to follow my
heart and organize it however the way I can.
However way my soul...
MARIE: Which is fine when you're playing single
player, but when we're playing co-op, you
have to do it exactly the way...
ROBERT: Okay.
Tell me what to do.
MARIE: Just keep shoving this stuff around
in a mad, frenzied panic.
Where am I?
We can start a little nautical section.
Or have you been putting boats elsewhere?
Upside down sharks -- where have they been
going?
ROBERT: I don't remember.
MARIE: They're gonna go up here by the flippers.
Whee!
Oh, excuse me.
What's this?
I don't know what that is.
I don't care anymore.
Sweating a bit.
Oh!
Excuse me.
Okay.
Bloop bloop bloop.
ROBERT: I'm like...
How the face turns to see my mouse cursor.
It's really cute.
MARIE: Looking at what he's doing.
He's paying attention.
ROBERT: Where should magnets go?
Next to the horseshoe?
MARIE: Yeah, metal things.
That sounds good.
ROBERT: Wait.
Where are the horseshoes?
MARIE: Did we give all the horseshoes away?
You're a vertical storer, whereas I'm doing
this horizontally.
Maybe that's where...
Well, I've got a horseshoe here.
So...
This vertical sorting...
Where do we put these?
Bloop.
Bloop.
I'm just gonna shove it over there like that.
ROBERT: We're putting boots here.
Okay.
MARIE: Fins, star...
Uh-oh.
Can we not click on...
What happens if you're not ready?
It's like we just sit here forever.
Sorry, guys.
ROBERT: Just bringing it back to center.
Are we ready?
MARIE: We're ready.
Just dump all this stuff.
ROBERT: They want northern rails...
MARIE: I'll get the trains.
Where did we put the third one?
ROBERT: The shark fins are over here.
I'll get this one.
They wanted three shark fins.
MARIE: Okay.
We've got a lot of those.
Did we even shelve the milk?
Did you bring it out?
ROBERT: I didn't even see any milk!
MARIE: It reminds me of working in a book
shop.
You look in the system and it says no, you've
got two copies.
ROBERT: I'll get the cricket.
MARIE: Just gonna check the goods.
This is a health and safety hazard.
Look at this.
ROBERT: Oh!
Phew.
That was really hectic.
Let's see what prizes we get.
We didn't get any presents?
Wait, what?
MARIE: It's a stock take.
This is a good place to end it.
The thing we can now purchase is the ability
to rotate blocks, and now we get a stock take,
which is one of my favorite bits of Wilmot's
Warehouse, which is the calm between each
of the levels.
Of the different deliveries.
We've just got time to just take it easy.
And just organize things.
ROBERT: Is it just infinite time?
So we can just hang out now?
No time...
MARIE: Yeah, just sort the warehouse out.
We can fiddle about with it.
And get really pedantic with the way you want
things organized.
ROBERT: Oh, dear.
MARIE: It's a nice sort of breathing space
to organize your thoughts.
ROBERT: It's so unusual for a game to be about
being really fast and on the ball and then
it slows down and says...
Okay.
Now sit and have some tea and stock take.
MARIE: Yeah.
Just have a little...
Organize...
Get yourself in order.
And don't worry.
We're not gonna time you on that.
I think the main thing I can see that's happening
here is I and my warehouses have always sorted
things horizontally.
So I normally sort of bring things right to
the top.
And have lines coming out.
And just use this main thoroughfare to sort
of bring big loads up to the delivery hatch.
Whereas you seem to be doing it vertically.
Which I wonder...
ROBERT: I blame the aspect ratio of our split
screen.
That's making me think more vertically.
MARIE: I'm open to that.
I've seen some people's warehouses where they've
been doing that sort of storage.
Maybe that's more efficient.
Maybe that's better.
So...
Yeah.
ROBERT: Oh, gosh.
Okay.
So...
How good am I at this game?
MARIE: You've been doing well playing one-handed.
So congratulations.
ROBERT: Do I get a good star?
MARIE: You get 14 gold stars.
Maybe we should split them if we're coworkers.
Like we're splitting our tips.
So you get 7 stars.
I get 7.
ROBERT: 50/50?
Are you sure?
You don't want more stars?
It felt like you were doing more of the work.
MARIE: I've got two hands and I think I've
been playing this more than you.
ROBERT: Fair enough.
Okay.
That's Wilmot's Warehouse.
You should definitely play it.
If you haven't played it.
Really fun couples game.
You know.
Play it with a significant other and argue.
MARIE: Argue about how you might tidy your
virtual warehouse!
Or understand that this is a way for you to
learn how to come to a consensus and to compromise
in a relationship.
You too could take deep life lessons away
from this game, much as I did, which was...
Yeah.
It's fine.
Find your own path.
Find your own way of organizing the warehouse.
And sometimes you can look at the way that
other people do things, and you can adapt
it and change it and learn from that.
But don't feel like you have to change who
you fundamentally are.
You keep your warehouse the way you want to.
ROBERT: We're learning so much on this stream.
Isn't this wonderful?
We're right about near the end of the stream,
I think.
No, I mean, we'll boot them out, I think.
We'll stay here.
But I think we might boot them out.
So normally we do a bunch of stuff near the
end of this stream.
But our streaming computer actually broke
down and we had to really jury-rig this whole
setup.
So we're not gonna do that this week.
But next week, stay tuned for all this cool
stuff that we'll have planned, and hopefully
our computer won't melt down and hopefully
we'll do stuff, and hopefully I'll be better
at Wilmot's Warehouse as well.
Last word, Marie?
MARIE: Goodbye?
ROBERT: Goodbye.
Thanks for watching, and again, if you're
in the New York area, hopefully we'll see
you around at Playtest Thursday, which is
5:30 to 7:00 tonight, or if you want to catch
Marie, at her lecture series talk, that's
7:00 pm onwards.
At 370 Jay Street on the 12th floor.
Make sure you RSVP on our website, though,
at gamecenter.nyu.edu first, so you ensure
you get a seat.
It would be sad if you came all this way to
downtown Brooklyn and forgot to RSVP and then
we don't have any room for you.
That would be very sad indeed.
Oh, gosh.
Okay.
So anyway, thanks for tuning in, and please
tune in next week!
Bye!
MARIE: Bye!
Thanks for having me!
