Our panellists tonight bring
lifetimes of experience and wisdom,
across politics, business,
the media, charity, and faith.
They know how to struggle,
how to teach,
and how to come back from a crisis.
They've got lots to say
about how we, as a nation,
should emerge from this unique time.
So, we'll get their take
on political leadership,
our difficult relationship
with China,
what gives them hope,
and what brings them happiness.
You've got lots of questions tonight,
so let's get you some answers.
Welcome to Q+A.
(APPLAUSE)
Hey there. Welcome to the program.
Joining me on the show tonight -
journalist and author Kerry O'Brien,
university chancellor
Jillian Broadbent,
who sat on the board
of the Reserve Bank
and remains on the Woolworths board,
among others,
former WA premier
and adjunct professor at the
University of Western Australia,
Colin Barnett,
who says our relationship with China
is at a 30-year low,
Gubbi Gubbi and Gurang Gurang man
and pastor at St John's Anglican
Church in Sydney, Ray Minniecon,
and CEO and founder of OzHarvest,
Ronni Kahn,
whose food rescue service now has
an extra million mouths to feed
since the outbreak of COVID-19.
Please make all of them feel welcome.
And remember, as always,
you can stream us
on iview, YouTube, Facebook,
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#QandA is the hashtag.
Every week, we invite our panellists
to join in a robust
but respectful debate,
so, if you are getting involved
on social media,
we ask that of you too.
Our first question tonight comes from
Meg Upton in Parkdale, Victoria.
Hi, panel.
Often the blame focused at boomers
is economic -
that they hold the wealth,
the savings,
have benefited
from property purchase,
negative gearing,
and, more recently,
franking credits.
But what of some
of the social changes
that effected great change
during the 1960s and 1970s
such as women's rights,
no-fault divorce, childcare?
Don't current generations
benefit greatly
from such powerful social change?
Does it always have to be
an economic discussion?
Ronni Kahn, I want to start with you.
Are we too quick to dump on boomers?
Absolutely.
Are we ignoring all of your wisdom?
Definitely.
Given that I'm one of them,
I absolutely think
we're too quick to dump on us.
However, there is $2.3 trillion
worth of money
that's going to be transferred
intergenerationally
over the next 15 years.
Now, let's hope that we know
how to use that well.
I should say that you're all boomers.
There's one borderline boomer.
I'm not going to name names here.
But I want to ask your thoughts
on this, Ray -
do you think we're too quick
to dismiss older generations,
particularly the boomers?
In our culture,
we don't dismiss our elders.
They're a part of our community,
and we respect them,
we listen to them, and we want them
to be a part of our community.
So it's...
The boomer thing is
not really a part of our thinking
or our culture.
So, what do you make of
"the boomer thing",
as you describe it?
(CHUCKLES)
What do I make of it? Uh...
Look, we haven't progressed,
in terms of our economic
developments anyways,
as...from the 1960s onwards.
We didn't get our, you know...
The referendum didn't happen
till 1967.
So, coming out
of that period of time there,
we've had to negotiate
some very, very rough times.
And we still do negotiate
through those social issues -
the racisms and all those kind
of challenges that we face,
the health, the incarceration rates.
All of those kind of things are
part of our community's challenges.
And so the boomer situation,
we would love to have, you know,
big amounts of money
locked away in our superannuation
to live off,
but that's not our reality.
Kerry O'Brien.
Well, I think it's too simplistic
to separate generations
and say one generation
is more selfish than another,
as if there were some kind
of conspiracy about it,
some collective managing
of our world.
And that's simply not the case.
I think that, in many ways,
we've been a lucky generation.
And I was actually born
six days after the war,
so, technically,
I'm probably just pre-boomer.
(CHUCKLES)
I wasn't going to identify.
Well, I will.
I'll happily be a part
of that generation,
because I think some great things
have happened in that period.
And we did live through
the worst of the Cold War,
and the great threat
of nuclear war.
But we did get to bask
in the sunlight, post-war.
But, you know, I'm a parent
and, like every boomer parent,
I would want at least as much,
if not more, opportunity
for my children and my grandchildren
than I had,
and certainly than my parents had.
And I don't believe
that's going to be the case.
Jillian Broadbent, do you see
the way young people look
at your generation today
and say, "Look, they got
a great deal on education,
"they got a great deal on their home,
"they got a great deal
with their superannuation,
"and they're having a great time
as they move towards retirement
"or live happily in it"?
Well, I think
some of that's very true.
And, as Ronni said, there is
going to be this wealth transfer.
And I think
government has continually failed
to address the generosity
of superannuation.
So I think there are
some policies there
that would make
the attitude to the boomers
a little bit less resentful.
But do you think
young people are justified?
I mean, the sorts of kids
that go to your university,
do you think they're justified
in feeling a bit hard done by?
I don't see that view
as widespread as you say -
this resentment of the older age.
I mean, I think there is a certain
amount of respect and recognition,
especially with women,
of the social change.
I mean, as a female
who stayed in the workforce,
I get a fair bit of respect
for persevering against adversity,
I suppose.
So I haven't seen that resentment.
But I do think there are tweaks
to economic policy
that could deal
with some of the resentment
that might be there.
OK, then, to that point,
let's take this question
from Oliver Pocock in the studio.
Good evening.
Young people face a myriad of issues
in contemporary Australia,
from chronic levels of unemployment
and underemployment,
rapid rises in cost of housing
and cost of living,
and now the social and economic
hardships unleashed by the pandemic.
However, many young Australians
like myself do not expect charity
or handouts from our leaders.
We simply ask that the promise
of a fair go,
made to our parents
and grandparents,
extend to us as well.
Does the panel believe
that current policy settings
are enough to address the challenges
that are facing
and will face my generation?
Colin Barnett?
Well, I think
for the baby boomer generation,
I agree with Kerry's comment,
it has been
a prosperous and safe time
for most of the baby boomers.
For the younger generation,
I think most of us of my age
are more concerned
about the life facing our children
and particularly our grandchildren.
It is going to be
a lot more difficult.
All sorts of issues are arising,
almost on an annual basis.
But I think our policy settings
are pretty good.
Let's face it, Australia,
despite the COVID crisis,
is a good place to be, is Australia,
and I think we've got a lot
to be confident in in the future.
So I don't have a huge problem.
I realise there are issues that
some people feel intensely about.
But I think if you look
across the board,
Australia has been well governed,
and I believe it will continue
to be well governed.
What, then, are the policies
that the boomer generation, Colin,
have sacrificed
for younger generations
that are struggling now
to buy a home,
to pay back their HECS debt?
What are the sacrifices?
Well, I don't think the baby boomers
have had to sacrifice much at all.
I mean...
And most baby boomers
are really healthy -
as you could expect for our age -
most of them own a home,
most of them have superannuation
and the like.
So, for most people,
it's a pretty good older age
as it approaches.
For younger people,
it is going to be more difficult
to own a home.
And maybe, to some extent,
the aspirations is above
what is reality.
In the '50s and '60s,
most young couples went out
and bought a flat or an old home
and did it up.
Now, those opportunities
aren't really there for many.
Also, my generation had job security
for most people.
Young people today are going
to have multiple changes of career,
occupation and the like.
And that's going to be challenging.
So, I think the baby boomers
are stepping back,
smelling the roses a little bit,
and wanting to see good policy,
sensible policies that are
compassionate and are fair to all,
as the questioner said.
We do need fairness and equality
in an egalitarian society,
and I think Australia is
in a good place.
Do you agree, Kerry?
I don't think Australia is
as egalitarian as we'd like to think
at all.
When, uh...
I've read credible studies
which tell me
that Australia was
a more equal society
when I was a kid than today.
And I know that
Indigenous Australians
would have cause
to disagree with that,
because, in many ways, they didn't
exist in those times, officially.
And Mabo hadn't happened.
And there would have been
no Indigenous person
going through a university.
But, nonetheless,
today you have a situation
where poverty is increasing
year by year in Australia,
one of the most prosperous societies
on the face of the Earth,
where 3.24 million Australians
are living in poverty.
Where 775,000 children
are living in poverty.
Where those figures are increasing,
both in terms of percentage,
as well as in real numbers.
Where young people,
according to the latest
Productivity Commission report -
and this is a government agency,
the Productivity Commission -
that under-35-year-olds' wages
have been going backwards
for the last 10 years.
Now, these are just a few
of the instances
of the growing inequality,
which I don't believe is sustainable
if we want to have
a cohesive society
and a civil society.
And we're going to...
We're already, I think,
starting to see the polarisation
and the breakdowns
that are manifestly evident
in the United States,
the United States
that has given us Donald Trump.
And Donald Trump wouldn't
be existing,
he wouldn't be in the White House,
if it wasn't for those millions
of disaffected people in America.
Do you think
we're on that trajectory?
I think we are.
I think we are...we are now
a polarising society.
Our politics are polarised.
But the real fundamental failure
in this country
is a failure to have provided
continuous quality leadership.
I feel very strongly about it.
I think our two-party system is
letting us down.
And both sides have to step up
and face the responsibility
for that.
And I could go on, Hamish.
(LAUGHTER)
I'm...
Well, it's so refreshing
to hear you, Kerry,
because I think you're 100% right.
I think that we...
Sadly.
..we, you know...
I see this every single day.
In the last five months,
during COVID,
there was gross inequality
between how funds were distributed,
how food was distributed,
how people were affected
through this pandemic.
And it is absolutely symbolic
of our society.
We have to...
we have to shift and change.
And our leadership has to shift
and change, and take responsibility.
But where has the leadership
been lacking during this?
Because we've had
premiers standing up,
we've had, at a federal level,
our leaders standing up,
listening to the science, chipping in
with the funding where necessary.
Why do you think
the leadership has been lacking?
Because, where they...
First of all,
it took them time to react.
That's number one.
Number two, with the funding,
if we hadn't lobbied for the sector
that I represent...
You're talking
about the charity sector.
I'm talking
about the charity sector,
the essential services sector.
..there was not going
to be funding for us.
How come a sector
that employs 1.3 million people,
provides 8% of the GDP,
had to fight to get a handout
as opposed
to equal distribution of funding?
So I think our leaders, that are
now squabbling between premiers,
this is the time
for them to actually come together
and lead our country out
of this crisis together, strongly,
or within this crisis,
rather than...infighting.
Ray, do you think leadership has
been lacking during this pandemic?
Oh, most definitely.
Even before...before the pandemic.
Because, for Indigenous Australians,
we felt like we're being
taken back on the old mission.
I'm...I'm a product of
the old mission,
one of the last
of the mission blacks,
so I know what it was like
before the 1967 referendum,
and I've seen the progress
that we have made,
but also the incredible things
that have been taken from us
in terms of our advancement.
And I guess we should be...
..Indigenous Australians
should be a measuring stick
of our ways forward.
We'd love to be part of
the boomer cohorts,
and have that kind of opportunity
to...to retire with that,
but you'll see in our communities
that our grandparents are
looking after their grandchildren,
and particularly our grandmothers.
And they're the ones with
the heavy burden and responsibility
because the parents of those
children are either in jail or...
..or they're dead.
It's...it's just a continuous
challenge for them
to actually meet basic needs
on a daily basis.
Colin Barnett, you're in the state
with, I think,
Australia's most popular leader.
Mark McGowan as Premier
I think has the highest ratings
in the polls of any leader
in this country right now.
Do you see the same failure
of leadership
that the folks here
on the east coast are identifying?
Well, look, there has been a lot
of squabbling in...in politics,
including Australia,
but I still think Australia
is advancing as a country.
On the COVID situation itself,
the first wave, if you like,
I think was dealt with well
and Australia was feeling
very proud of itself.
Then things started to go wrong -
the Ruby Princess issue in Sydney,
the quarantine failures
in Melbourne, and so on.
And now, I guess, more recently,
aged care problems.
In Western Australia,
Mark McGowan has done a good job,
no doubt about it,
and the hard border
that's been applied here
has meant that
for most Western Australians,
the COVID crisis...
And while some restrictions
still apply here,
life is pretty well
getting back to normal.
I think the major source of angst
that I sense around the community
is that...the stress that's caused
by not being able
to reunite families.
Family members on the east coast
and obviously maybe parents
on the West Australian coast
can't reunite, and equally
going into people overseas
who want to return to Australia.
But if the attention remains
on dealing with
the health issue first and foremost,
I would hope, by Christmas,
or well before Christmas
most of Australia would be
basically back
to a normal operation.
There'll still be some restrictions,
there'll still need to be
health measures taken,
but we are on track to do that
with a bit of luck,
as long as we don't get
another outbreak
like, unfortunately,
happened in Melbourne.
Jillian Broadbent, before we move on,
I just want to get an answer
to Oliver's question.
It was about young people
and their perception
of where the odds
are stacked in Australia,
and whether the policy settings
are right.
Before COVID, the Parliamentary
Budget Office forecast
that boomers, as a generation,
would cost the government
$36 billion a year
by the year 2028-29.
Today we've had Paul Keating
and Kevin Rudd
talk about superannuation,
saying that this government is trying
to destroy the super system.
Do you see, from even just
an economic perspective,
where young people might be
coming from on some of this stuff?
Look, I do see where
young people are coming from,
but I also think they...
..there has been advancement
that they're not recognising.
Some of it's the...
the openness to accepting...
..being neutral about gender in male
and female opportunities with jobs.
But I also see,
through the university,
a lot of opportunities
for young people
who want to start
their own businesses
that would never occur
when I was having a job.
So, Colin talked about people
were in a job for life,
or you might have had
two changes of jobs,
and it just happens to be that
people change jobs a lot more times,
and some of that brings opportunity
and...and enthusiasm
rather than being stuck in a job
for a long period of time.
So, the...the...the people
I see at the university,
I'm very impressed
with their capacity
to take advantage of...
We...we have iAccelerate, you know,
which is our incubator
and accelerator,
and it's started 192 companies,
you know, employing 800 people.
I mean, they're very small,
but they're all young people
who have just graduated
and going into these things.
Those support mechanisms
were never there even to find a job
when you graduated when I finished.
So, there are some good things
about the more mobile society
that we're seeing.
But I wondered if I could
comment back on this...
I have the concern that Kerry has
about inequality,
but it's been a global dynamic
where the returns have gone
to capital, not gone to labour.
And how do you change that, Jillian?
And that's... Well, that dynamic...
In other words, not change it
so that it all goes the other way,
but that there is
a genuine healthy sharing.
Yeah, well, that dynamic
isn't going to change.
What you have to do is
a recognition of it,
measure the inequalities and
have policies that...that offset it.
So, I do think the wealth-building
has to be taxed
a bit more heavily than...
But then, when you put the policies
to the Australian public,
like were put
at the last election,
the public votes against them.
Well, some of that
is misrepresentation
of the reality of the policies.
OK.
So, you're talking about
things like franking credits?
Absolutely.
Right.
So, you think something like that
is necessary so that a generation...
Totally necessary. Yes.
..like Oliver's doesn't lose out?
Yes.
OK.
Let's take our next question tonight.
It comes from Yumi Lee in the studio.
My question to the panel
is as follows -
why is it that we as a nation
fail to acknowledge that
we have a problem with ageism,
and that, compounded with the perils
of privatisation in aged care,
has led to the neglect,
starvation and deaths
of our vulnerable elderly
in nursing homes?
How else can we explain
this tolerance that we have
for one of the highest rates
of aged care deaths in the world?
Ageism - Ronni, does it exist?
Look, it seems to absolutely exist
if you look at what's happened
in our aged care system
and how we have misaligned it.
And there's absolutely no doubt.
I wish I had an answer for you,
because the reality...
And the whole discussion
we had before
is not taking account of the fact
that we've just gone through
and are in the middle of a pandemic,
because it's no good saying...
..talking about even education
pre-COVID,
given that budgets
have been slashed,
and now university, etc,
costs money.
But I think it sounds,
and it is clear,
that our aged system has failed us
and needs to be redesigned
dramatically.
Kerry, do you think ageism exists?
Of course it does.
Of course it does.
And I...
Perhaps it's a little harder for me
simply because I've still got
some kind of a public profile,
but I have plenty of friends,
particularly women friends,
who feel that they become more and
more invisible the older they get.
Now, that's
a very generalised comment,
but it's a generalised comment
based on particular anecdotes.
I think also it has been
really disturbing, I think,
some of the comments that have
come out of the pandemic
related to aged people.
And to the extent that it's true
that older people in aged care
were denied access to hospitals
when they picked up the virus
and were showing nasty symptoms...
..simply because of their age,
then I think that's appalling.
And when I hear comments
that say that...
..that against the crashing
of an economy,
to preserve a few extra months
of life
for people in nursing homes
who are only going to,
on average, perhaps live
for another 10 months...
And I'm referring to Andrew Bolt,
particularly,
and I'm referring
to him particularly
because I noticed the other day
he castigated
one of the ABC presenters
for...for quoting his claims
without identifying him.
But whatever validity there is
to a theoretical argument
about weighing the greater good
against the specific,
the way...the ease with which
we can sometimes toss off
the value of the old...
It's not...it is not just
what they can do for us now -
and many of them still have
great insights to give
from their experience -
it is the value they have brought
to our country over their lifetimes,
over the whole of their lifetimes,
that is being negativised
and dismissed.
And I...I hope we can learn
from that.
And I also think that...
..that, with all of the
privatisations that we've seen
over the last 30 years,
I wonder now whether...
With the cracks that this pandemic
has exposed in our society,
I wonder whether the debate
really should not be started,
with vigour and with direction,
about those areas
where we might consider
a reversing the process,
in particular...
You're talking about aged care?
I'm talking about aged care as one
where I think debate
needs to be had.
But it's not just
in private aged care residences
where this has occurred.
No, of course. Of course not.
And I think it's not just...
it's not just the private sector
where...where profits and cost
are primary driving motives.
I think in the public sector too.
As we know on the ABC, you know,
the people who...
I walk into this place now
and it's like a desert,
and I keep hearing day after day
of the next round of casualties,
the experience that's walking out
the door of the ABC.
So, the public sector
is feeling the same heat -
possibly more so, the heat.
That doesn't mean that
the proposition is wrong.
Ray, at the beginning
of this conversation
you pointed out sort of different
cultural approaches to ageing.
Yes.
Do you see ageism as a...
..as a real thing?
Do you experience it yourself?
No, because we value our elders.
They're a very big asset
to our community.
We learn from them.
I've sat at the feet of so many
elders right throughout my life,
and I still will sit at the feet
of our elders to learn from them.
And so they're a part
of our community.
They're an asset to us.
We don't see them as someone
that you just put away in
an aged care home
and leave them there.
They're a part of who we are,
and we want to continue to learn
from them as much as we can.
So, how do...how do you think about
becoming an older person yourself?
Does that add responsibility
to your existence?
Yeah. (LAUGHS)
Yes. I'm here tonight
because of that.
(LAUGHTER)
But, I mean, how does it shape
your interaction
with younger people, with...?
How does it shape the way
you think about
what you want to leave behind?
It shapes a lot of things
about what I want to leave behind,
because I've looked back at the...
You know, I walk in shadows
of great Aboriginal leaders,
great Aboriginal men,
who have gone on before us and have
left a legacy for us to follow
and have left huge big footprints.
I mean, you've got to look
at some of the things
that has been achieved in the '70s,
like the establishment of
the Aboriginal Medical Service.
And that model now
has been, you know,
put...put right throughout
our country.
But that's a model that...
that we have created.
The Aboriginal Legal Services.
All of these little models
have turned into something
of a national...
of national importance,
so we know what it...
..we bring assets into it
rather than deficits.
Jillian, I think in 2009
you went with your friend
Carla Zampatti
to a Grace Jones concert
at the Sydney Festival
and danced in the mosh pit.
Oh!
Do you think ageing is just...?
Could I do that today?
Yes.
Would you still do that today?
Would she come with me today?
(LAUGHTER)
Probably...
Don't dodge the question.
Probably yes.
But I do think we have to be
very conscious of fitting...
..older people fitting in
with younger people, and vice versa.
It's the isolation
that is dangerous,
because you can't really make
collective decisions about the aged
if you don't identify
with particular people.
And I think, if there are
those decisions being made, it's...
..it's an isolation which
has not got the affiliation
that Ray talks about.
So, I think we should all
work on that affiliation.
OK.
Our next question tonight
comes from Mark Salmon.
Well, we've...
This is a lot to do with
international politics,
but, recently, we've just heard
from the Australian government,
saying that they are
proposing legislation
that is going to restrict
the foreign involvement
of countries in Australian life.
And to do with that,
there is a lot of...
So, the question really becomes,
is it foreign governments or...
..possibly the people
who work for the governments
or are associated
with foreign governments,
and is any of that
going to be retrospective?
OK. So, we're talking about
the Foreign Relations Bill here.
The legislation was introduced
to parliament this week.
It'll give the federal government
the power
to cancel agreements that states,
territories and local governments,
as well as universities,
enter into with overseas governments.
And obviously a lot of people
have been talking about
the Belt and Road Initiative
Memorandum of Understanding
that was signed by Victoria.
Colin Barnett,
you were the premier of a state
that does an enormous amount
of business with China.
Obviously,
the federal government is at pains
to NOT say this is about China.
How do you interpret it?
Well, it IS about China.
I would not have signed
the Belt and Road Initiative
that Victoria signed.
And Mark McGowan,
WA's premier today,
also said he won't sign it.
I think that does go close
to endorsing the foreign policy
of another country.
And defence and foreign policy
are clearly the responsibility
of the Commonwealth government.
Now...
Let's just tease that out.
Why does it go to forming separate,
state-based foreign policy?
What is it about
the Belt and Road Initiative?
Because Victoria says, "Actually,
this is just about investment,
"and more so than ever,
"we need a good pipeline
of money coming in
"for investment post-COVID."
Well, the Belt and Road Initiative
is China's prime international
foreign economic policy,
and political influence is there.
So, if it was confined
to what you have just said,
I don't have a problem.
Look, for nearly 30 years,
I've visited countries
that are important
to Western Australia,
particularly around minerals,
iron ore, natural gas and so on.
I've had meetings with ministers
of foreign countries,
prime ministers, presidents.
In every occasion,
the conversation has remained
on economic issues,
particularly about
resource development
and some other sectors.
Not on any occasion
has it ventured into foreign policy
or defence policy.
And, on every occasion,
I've been assisted
by Australia's embassies overseas,
and if they wish to,
embassy officials,
and often the ambassador,
was very welcome to come
to any meeting I attended.
So, I think the issue here
is the Belt and Road Initiative
and Victoria.
If that's what it is...
Given what you've just described,
though,
what's the risk of this legislation?
Does that stymie
some of those relationships?
Does it make that work harder?
I would imagine that
the bulk of the really big deals
that WA would be doing
with Chinese-based companies
would be companies that are either
wholly or part state-owned.
Yes, most of them
are state-owned enterprises,
and the deals are big deals
about big resource projects -
Australia's biggest projects.
I think it is unnecessary
to have this legislation.
It will stymie relations.
You will find, instead of agreements
that are reached
being formalised
and open to all scrutiny,
you'll probably get just more
informal arrangements taking place.
So, the relationship between,
if you like,
state premiers
travelling internationally
and the embassies
will probably become weakened
and less obvious to outsiders.
So, deal with the issue,
and if it's
the Belt and Road Initiative, do it.
And also what an incredible layer
of bureaucracy,
and what a patronising attitude
it would be that,
if a state premier
wants to go overseas,
he's got to get permission
for who he talks to,
or she talks to.
That will never, ever happen.
Should local governments
have to go to the Commonwealth
to have some little
sister-city relationship
with somewhere in the world
where it may be students that travel
or arts groups and the like?
I mean, this is complete overkill
and totally unnecessary
and, in my view,
just simply will not work.
Western Australia, other states,
will continue to develop
their economic policy.
They'll continue to do arrangements
with other countries.
And one thing that's forgotten -
this is not the states
getting involved in foreign policy.
If you're talking about,
for example, mineral resources,
the state is the owner.
It's got a government's role
and it's also got a commercial role
in getting a good return
for the people of each state
and the country as a whole,
so I just really cannot understand.
In fact, I'd make
the point right now -
one of the things we should be doing
is toning down
this bickering with China.
It's doing Australia
and Australians' confidence
a lot of damage.
There are some important issues
with China.
Their presence...
Well, can I ask why so?
Isn't it important that
Australia draws a line in the sand
on a whole range of issues?
Whether it's Chinese influence
in our university campuses,
whether it's the exerting
of influence
on some of
our neighbouring countries,
why shouldn't Australia define
its values more clearly and publicly?
Well, that's foreign policy.
That's up to the federal government,
and I don't have any qualms
with some of the things,
but the two big issues
that I think matter to Australia...
So, on the one hand,
you're saying that's foreign policy,
but you don't want sort of rhetoric
that you think
damages the relationship?
Well, we ARE damaging it.
The two big issues
that I think affect Australia
are the South China Sea -
the increased
military presence there -
and obviously a lot of concern
about what's going on in Hong Kong.
Issues here are relatively minor.
I don't see evidence,
certainly in Western Australia,
of interference on campus.
Yes, we shouldn't have
foreign donations
into political campaigns.
That's...that's basically gone.
But we are picking issues
and picking fights with China
that we simply do not need to do.
They understand -
China well understands -
that our relationship
with the United States,
through the ANZUS Treaty,
is at the very centre
of our foreign policy
and defence policy.
They have never, ever raised that
with me in 30 years,
and I suspect the same would be
with other state premiers.
The states are on about
economic development.
The Commonwealth is included.
If you go down this way,
you'll start to find
the flow of information
will not be as it has been
and as it should be.
OK. Jillian Broadbent -
overkill, this legislation?
I think it's a bit of overkill.
I was...
The universities
and the federal government
came to an agreement
in November 2019
about an arrangement
of how to deal with foreign...
..possible foreign intervention.
And it was all done fairly quietly,
and there's a code of behaviour
and you...
And Australia's always been very...
I mean, it wasn't that quiet.
I spoke to
the federal education minister
about it a number of times.
I mean...
Oh.
..it was done pretty publicly.
Well, it wasn't as...
It didn't poke the panda
as much as this has, I suppose.
Right.
Or I didn't see it
aggravating the relationship
as much as I think
this has the danger of doing.
But we're...
Because we're a small country,
this collaboration and cooperation
and research and ideas and thinking
has always been leveraging
our own capacity.
So, the states going
and making their own relationships,
trying to develop
their own industries,
I think we have to recognise
that does benefit us
and we want to maintain it.
Kerry O'Brien, it seems pretty clear
that China is trying
to teach Australia a lesson
for taking the position it took
on an international investigation
into the origins of COVID-19.
Why shouldn't Australia take
a stronger position
on matters of value?
I think Australia has
to have a very clear sense
of its own value system,
but it also needs
to have a very clear sense
of how to underwrite the stability
of our own future,
and I think our very future
is at stake here.
And there is nothing
I'm going to say
that suggests that
we should pander to China,
or any other country,
but there are many times
we have pandered
to the United States
when it might have been
in our own best interests -
and even
the United States' interests -
to present an alternative viewpoint,
like going into the Iraq War,
for instance.
And I think, regardless of
the Prime Minister's insistence
on talking about "countries"
rather than China,
we all absolutely know,
as Colin has said,
that he's talking about China,
and...
And there is
a kind of double standard here
and there is a hypocrisy, and
I've lost count of the number...
What is it?
..of politicians, of both sides,
who've told me over the years,
jokingly,
about how their trips have been...
..their trips to America
have been sponsored by the CIA.
I mean, this is not a new thing.
Maybe it's more overt in some ways.
And I don't like aspects
of China's authoritarian status
and...and so on,
and their treatment of minorities.
And I don't like any attempt
to bully us as a nation.
But, at the same time,
I am really concerned...
But isn't that exactly what's
happening with the tariffs on barley,
the investigations
into our wine trade?
Isn't that exactly what IS happening?
What I am concerned about,
Hamish, is that...
..is that prime minister
after prime minister has said
that Australia doesn't have
to choose sides
between America and China,
and yet there is this sense
that that is what we are now doing.
We are in the age of Trump.
We're watching Trump to try and...
..try and rebuild some popularity
as he faces defeat
at the next election,
increasingly seeking to paint China
as the enemy in the United States,
and there is a sense
that we are following,
not quite in lockstep,
but not that far behind.
There is something
of the same optic about it,
and I'm starting...
And the other thing is
that Australia's advice
is being taken...
..Australia's decisions
are being taken
on the advice
of our intelligence agencies,
and we have no way
of being able to scrutinise
the import of, and the authenticity
of, the material that's coming.
And we have seen
intelligence agencies
in this country
make mistakes in the past.
Quite dangerous mistakes at times.
But to be fair
to this government, though,
when Marise Payne and Linda Reynolds
went to Washington recently,
they were eager
to demarcate Australian policy
on issues to do with trade,
particularly from the US position.
And yet, at the same time...
..at the same time, Hamish,
the Prime Minister has said
that the United States is our past,
our present and our future.
Do you disagree with that,
in terms of
our security arrangements?
I would seriously question
that we can so blithely say
that the United States
is our future.
What, 30 years from now?
40 years from now?
50 years from now?
And what if the United States,
under another president,
decides that it's not going to be
so aggressive to the Chinese,
actually decides
that it can't maintain
its hegemony in Asia,
and that it has
to share power with China,
and that China will become
the natural superpower
of the Asian region?
How will Australia feel then
as it has to walk back
from its position?
So, what do you envisage?
Australia siding with China
over the United States?
No, I don't. No, I don't.
I see Australia endeavouring
to play, as much as possible,
the role of an honest broker
between the two,
and having strong,
healthy relationships with both,
and having the courage
and the foresight
to express our concerns
about the policies
of either of those superpowers
when we disagree with them.
Alright.
But doing it diplomatically.
Let's take our next question.
It's a video from Clare Morrison
in Hawthorn, Victoria.
The pandemic has exposed flaws
in the Federation.
In the panel's view,
should the states surrender
all rights over their borders,
given some premiers appear
to have sealed their crossings
for political
rather than health reasons?
Ronni Kahn, the borders.
It's a challenge, the borders.
I think that each state
has to protect their citizens.
I think that doing it in a way
that is both diplomatically
as well as...
..in the most safe way.
So, I understand
why there have been times
when the borders need to be closed.
Ray Minniecon,
particularly in Western Australia
and the Northern Territory,
the closure of borders
has been crucial to protecting
remote Indigenous communities.
What do you make
of big businesspeople
demanding that the borders
are reopened urgently?
One of my issues with the ways
in which the pandemic
has been dealt with
by our governments
has been we've gone for
a suppression policy
rather than eradication policy.
If we would have went down
along the lines of New Zealand
and eradicated it...
That's the policy
that our leadership went with.
But it didn't quite work
for New Zealand.
Oh, yeah,
but after they've eradicated,
they can put a quarantine
around those places where...
..in those hotspots.
And so, our communities locked down
a long time before the...
..all the governments
in Australia locked down.
We went ahead with that
and quarantined
all of our communities,
and they're still under
that kind of quarantine lockdowns,
just for our own protection.
We do know, now,
that where the pandemic has influ...
..or, you know, come amongst
our people is in the cities.
And it seems
like a city-centric pandemic
more than a rural pandemic.
And so, the biggest number
of Aboriginal people, now,
who are affected by the pandemic
in the last, say, month or so
has been in Melbourne.
And we've got a high rise there,
but very, very few here in Sydney,
where we've got a higher population.
And there's a few others in more...
other parts of the country there.
But our services,
our NACCHO services
and all these other services,
and our Aboriginal doctors
are keeping a very close eye on it,
and giving the best advice
to our communities
so that they can make
the best decisions they can.
Colin Barnett, the suggestion
in Clare Morrison's question there
is that the borders are being closed
for political,
rather than health reasons.
Is that how you see it in WA?
No. I don't.
The closure of the border
in Western Australia,
hard border close, has been the most
significant and effective way
in limiting the coronavirus
in Western Australia.
I think the same's probably true...
It's true for Tasmania
and South Australia and Queensland.
Although Queensland, obviously,
more difficult
because of a highly populated
border zone,
as you've got between
New South Wales and Victoria.
So, where it can work,
it should be used,
and I think we should maintain it.
Hopefully,
along with other measures
that can be relaxed,
if not removed totally,
by the end of the year.
What do you make of all the pressure
that's being mounted
against some of the states
for having border closures?
I mean, do you feel
that the federal government
is on the losing side
of this argument?
I think, in terms
of people's attitudes, yes.
And what we've seen,
during the course of this pandemic,
is that, initially, it was very much
being run by federal parliament
and the Prime Minister, and so on.
Now, the situation is being managed,
really, by the states.
And I suspect that's resented
in Canberra,
but, you know, people need to start
to work together.
And one of the best things
we could do straightaway
is to stop the bickering
between the states,
and between the states
and the Commonwealth.
That's important.
If we did that,
we'd make progress more quickly.
As a former premier,
do you think this situation
has sort of highlighted
where the power actually sits
at this point in time,
between the states
and the Commonwealth?
Well, I'll give
an odd answer to that.
There are two million
public servants in Australia,
across three levels of government.
78% of them
are state public servants.
Now, that tells you one thing -
in managing services for people,
like in the pandemic
and like in aged care,
it's actually the states
that have people on the ground.
And I think there's a...
We need to go back
to some of the original concepts
of the Constitution.
The federal government
is good on financial matters,
it's good on policy matters,
but actually managing problems
and services for people,
that is better done more locally.
And I think you've seen that
in the aged care situation.
I don't think the states want to
take responsibility for aged care,
but that's a classic example
of policy getting away
from pragmatic people on the ground
who can actually deal
with the situation.
Alright. Our next question
is a video from Eve Elliott-Smith,
in Cairns, Queensland.
The Reserve Bank of Australia states
that climate change is exposing
financial institutions,
and the financial system
more broadly,
to risks that will increase
over time if not addressed.
The by-product of gas extraction,
methane,
is 80 times more powerful than CO2,
in terms of global heating.
New gas infrastructure will take
several years to come online,
and historically,
the industry has employed
a very small percentage
of Australia's workforce.
In a decarbonising global economy,
can you explain how
a gas-fired recovery from COVID-19
will provide our children
with a safe environment
and prosperous economy?
Now, I want to go
around the panel on this,
but, Ray, I do need to ask you
to explain for the audience.
When our producers tested
your thoughts on a gas-led recovery,
you laughed hysterically - why?
Because I just saw the country...
..passing wind.
(LAUGHTER)
Kerry O'Brien, a gas-led recovery -
is that the answer?
O'BRIEN: Passing too much wind.
Well, the basis
on which it's being sold
is that it would be a useful
transition from a totally...
..from a fossil-fuel base
to a renewables base
because it is a cleaner fossil fuel
than coal.
But I'm also paying heed
to 25 leading Australian scientists,
including some of our most eminent
climate scientists,
in a letter they wrote
to the chief scientist
who was making this argument
for gas,
saying that it has no part,
even in the lead-up to the future.
And saying precisely that point -
about the threat of methane gas
to global warming.
So, I don't understand, I think,
the finer points of this enough
to be definitive in my own mind,
but what I do know
is that front and centre
of our fight against climate change
has to be renewable energy...
MINNIECON: Yeah.
..and it has to be fostered,
supported, encouraged
and led from the front
by the government.
Otherwise, I don't believe
they're going to be credible
in trying to convince us,
going into the next election,
whenever that is -
quite possibly next year -
that they have a credible policy
on climate change.
Jillian Broadbent, you ran
the Clean Energy Finance Corporation,
since disbanded
by the early iterations
of this federal government.
Do you see gas as a transition fuel?
I mean, the science,
or the arguments that contest it...
I do see gas as a transition fuel.
I don't see a gas-led recovery.
I think that's not setting us up
for the future
the way we should be set up
for the future.
What about a pipeline
from Western Australia?
No, I think that would be
a stranded asset in about 20 years,
or maybe even 15 years.
And would it, in your view,
lock Australia into gas
for much longer than it needs to be?
It's probably what it would do,
because they'd be...
Whoever would own the asset,
would be claiming political risk
or you can't have a stranded asset.
And before you know it,
we'd be stuck on gas
when we shouldn't really
be stuck on gas,
because, as Kerry said,
the answer is distributed energy,
renewable energy,
technology energy efficiency,
pumped hydro.
There's just...
Gas is very cheap at the moment,
so this story
is getting a bit of traction.
But, I mean,
gas won't be cheap forever.
It'll...the price will go up again,
and then we'll be left
with a legacy -
not only a stranded asset,
but an expensive power source.
Colin Barnett, "a stranded asset"
and "an expensive power source".
No, look,
before COVID-19 came along,
the biggest economic issue
facing Australia
was the energy crisis
on the south-east coastline area,
particularly New South Wales
and particularly Victoria.
Australia has a lot of gas.
We are the world's biggest
exporter of gas,
and about 90% of that gas
is off the western
and northern coast.
You can build a pipeline
very quickly -
probably cost about $5 billion.
A pipeline of 1,500km was built
from Karratha to Perth
back in the 1980s,
and it was built in one year.
So, it's not difficult to do.
It will provide an energy source
that is reliable.
Ironically, it will help bring on
more renewables
because it will balance the system.
You even need it
for the Snowy 2.0 project
to pump the water up the hill
so it can flow back down the hill.
And you'll see a transition.
Hopefully, if gas is brought across,
jobs will continue,
people will have gas for heating
and electricity generation,
and the like.
And what we'll see, I suspect, is
as coal gradually declines,
gas will fill that void.
Overall, the policy, I think,
should be,
have reliable energy,
change the mix progressively
so coal does decline,
renewables increase,
and gas increases to fill that void.
And you will see, then, I think,
a better energy mix.
And gas - yeah, sure, there's
greenhouse emissions from gas,
but it is less than half
of the greenhouse emissions
from coal,
and on the east coast, Australia
is highly dependent on coal.
We've got gas - we should use it.
I just need to bring
Jillian Broadbent in on...
Mm.
You are, really, the expert
on this panel.
Do you accept these arguments?
I don't. (LAUGHS)
Why?
(LAUGHTER)
Well, I...
..because I think it's...
The story of coal was oversold,
and I think this story sounds like
it's being oversold on gas.
I mean, Colin says we...
We've overcome
the shortage of energy demand
in south-east Australia,
so we don't need the gas pipeline.
Sorry, Jillian, you haven't.
Well...
You haven't.
As soon as COVID's over,
it's going to be back
as number one issue -
the energy crisis on the east coast.
Well, I...
Colin, we've got abundant sun.
We've got abundant wind.
Yep.
I mean, all our...
You know, coal was abundant.
Coal is still abundant,
but that, alone, is not enough.
Well, Kerry, if you just want to...
Kerry, if you just want
to put the world on hold,
or straight on hold for 20 years,
I'd agree with you.
But we need to change
the energy mix,
and we have the best options
in the world.
We've got all those energy sources,
and I've had world leaders
say to me,
"Why don't you use some of the gas
for yourself?
"Because we'll buy the lot."
And that's what's going to happen
if we don't use it
to balance and have a reliable
energy source. Look...
But Jillian Broadbent
is not the only person that argues...
I know.
..a gas pipeline
would be a stranded asset.
I mean, that's a pretty widely-held
view, isn't it, Jillian?
Obviously not in Western Australia,
it isn't.
(LAUGHTER)
But I think it is a quite
widely-held view about...
I mean, it's a transition
source of energy.
And Colin's right -
it does fit in quite...quite well
to a combination,
as we transition to more renewable.
But to build an infrastructure
that brings it over
to the east coast, I think,
is certainly going
to be a stranded asset.
OK. Let's take
our next question tonight.
It's a video from Simon Forbes
in Alice Springs.
Hi, panel.
How is it
that Australians all accept
such an overrepresentation
of First Nations people
in our justice system as normal?
Every single person
in juvenile justice
in the Northern Territory
is an Indigenous Australian.
And about 95% of the Alice Springs
Correctional Centre population
is an Indigenous Australian.
The rest of the nation accepts this,
despite national inquiries,
royal commissions, and so forth.
When will we genuinely start
addressing the social determinants
of this abhorrent reality?
Ray.
(RAY LAUGHS)
Yes, there is...
The pathway for a lot
of Aboriginal children
is from school...
..to jail.
And there is...
We don't have a crossroads there.
It's just a...it seems
like a freeway, a highway.
And we, as Indigenous peoples, have
tried to put that crossroads there,
but it's not being supported enough.
I know, here, in Redfern,
for example,
we've got a Clean Slate
Without Prejudice program,
which is trying
to put that crossroads there,
between our community
and the police, and the jails.
But that's our pathway.
And inside those jails, there,
you've got your uncles
and your mothers and your fathers.
And here's the child, out here -
"I want to go and see Dad."
Well, that's a...
it's a straight pathway.
So, we know what the issues are,
but we don't have
the incredible resources necessary
to be able to put in
a crossroads there.
Do you think
it's just about resources, though?
Well, there's a lot of money spent
on new jails,
and it shouldn't be spent on that.
It should be spent
on the educational sector
so that our children do get
a better opportunity at education,
and to be able
to make their own decisions
on what they want to do
with their lives.
And, I mean, the system has...
there has failed as well.
But we know that the pathway there,
from our families to the schools,
we don't have the cross path there.
We don't have a wall there to say,
you don't have to go to jail,
there's another way out of this.
And the only way we can do that
is to really look at
the education system and say,
listen, you've got to pick up
your game,
make sure that you're doing
the best you can
to ensure that our children
get the best education,
so that they can make the choices
and the decisions they need to make
for their own future
and for their families.
Ronni, I know you're always
interested in solutions.
You, sort of, tackle
complex problems.
Do you see solutions in this area
that aren't immediately apparent?
I think, when you rob a nation
of their culture,
you lose the ability...
Somewhere along the way there is
such a void that has to be filled.
We have got to...we've got to
put Indigenous culture
back into the full education system,
not just for Indigenous people,
so that we all understand
and value the loss,
so that all along the pathway
we start restraining the system.
I mean, they can't have to get...
It's not about getting to
the crossroads.
We have to prevent them getting on
that path in the first place.
And that is about equality.
We have to bring out the bad word -
it's racism.
We have to deal with these things
and, quite honestly,
it has to start at the top.
It's back to that leadership issue.
It's back to how do we treat
all people equally?
It's about equality.
Kerry.
And we've got to start with the...
not in kindergarten,
but before kindergarten, preschool.
So that our children
are actually educated
before they get into the system,
so that by the time we get
to that Year 12, there is a path.
And I've, you know,
I'm a part of a school that's shown
that that can happen.
So it's not that difficult to do but
it does need a lot of resources.
I think one very obvious way,
when we talk about education,
how about a proper education
of the police around Australia
and the way they implement the law?
And of the whole justice system.
And I don't know
the status of courses
relating to history, culture,
tradition, the colonial heritage
in the police academies
around Australia,
but it's evidently not enough.
I don't know how often...
I don't think I've heard
a police commissioner
publicly and repeatedly urging...
..showing the leadership publicly,
as well as privately,
and urging their respective
police forces
to actually learn more
and come to a better understanding
of those things of which Indigenous
Australians have been deprived,
often brutally, often savagely,
over centuries.
That has to be very much a part
of the education process.
Even if it were to change today,
when you reflect on your lifetime
and changing attitudes,
even the things
that are recognised currently,
how do you reflect
on what you missed,
what you didn't learn early on?
Well, I mean,
it's only relatively recently,
when I was writing a book about it,
that I discovered the full extent
of my own ancestors'...
..um...
..share of the spoils.
They came as convicts
but did very well out of
the Indigenous dispossession
as pioneers, moving through
New South Wales up to Queensland,
driving herds of cattle and so on
and the kind of massacres
and atrocities that took place
through their history -
nothing from them specifically
that I was able to determine.
And they were highly respected
by white communities
but they were a part of a process
of dispossession.
I've seen it as a journalist.
I've been covering Indigenous issues
for 50 years.
I've watched the two steps forward
and one step back
and the one step forward
and the two steps back.
I saw Australians divided
over the whole issue of...
..of...Indigenous and non-Indigenous
engagement in Australia
through the Howard years.
I thought that,
on this issue particularly,
John Howard was
a divisive Prime Minister
and the evidence is there
to support that.
And I think we still pay a price
and our Indigenous Australians
still pay a price for that.
I think we non-Indigenous people
have a huge responsibility
to educate ourselves a lot better.
I had no education.
My generation had no education.
We had to educate ourselves
as adults rather than as children.
OK.
Two things that could happen there -
one is I think that
the federal government needs
to remove immediately
the Northern Territory intervention.
That's been the most brutal,
devastating action
by a Prime Minister that's ever been
perpetrated on our people.
That's the first thing.
They can remove that tomorrow
and it would free us up,
especially us men, to be able to
participate more in our communities
and take out all those bureaucrats
from our communities.
The second thing is we need
to reread the royal commission
into black deaths in custody.
Because those
370-odd recommendations,
the only one that really became
public was one of the last ones.
I think it was 38...
OK.
..on reconciliation,
on the process of reconciliation.
But even that's flawed.
OK.
But that royal commission
into black deaths in custody
gives all the information
that we need
in terms of the ways in which we can
implement those recommendations.
But they have been overlooked.
And that was 1987.
1987.
That was commissioned by Bob Hawke.
1987.
Let's take our last question tonight.
It's a video from Samuel Thompson
in Woolloomooloo, New South Wales.
They say the secret to happiness
is having something to do,
someone to love and something
to look forward to.
But we're living through
an ecological disaster,
in a world that feels like
it's on the brink of war
and there's so much negativity
around.
So, wise panel, my question for you
is what is there to look forward to?
What is there to be hopeful about?
Jillian, are you hopeful?
Yes.
About what?
Oh, well, uh... (LAUGHS)
I'm not hopeful
about a gas pipeline.
But I am hopeful that...
I mean, we talk about the...
I think the education on
Indigenous issues is getting better.
And we're all -
perhaps it's self-education -
but I'm hopeful that
we will move forward on that.
I've lost faith
in the federal government,
but if I take
the University of Wollongong,
we've signed an agreement
with the New South Wales
Aboriginal Land Council
to improve education
at school and university.
And Woolworths has a program
to specifically focus on
Indigenous people.
So, for the organisations
I'm associated with, I'm...
This is not about them,
this is about you.
What do you hope?
It takes me down about hope.
You have to have hope on big things
and you have to have hope
on little things.
So I have some hope
on some of those big issues.
But coming back to... I think we
will get through this COVID crisis.
I think it's probably going to be
a bit more like a marathon
than a sprint
but I think we'll get through it.
So I do have hope about that.
I have hope about health
and vaccines
and research at universities
that do extraordinary things.
So my experience with the university
always encourages hope
because we're so creative,
and the research
and the intellectual infrastructure
that's there.
OK.
So...
Colin, this question
was also about happiness
and the ingredients to happiness.
What makes you happy?
I just enjoy life, very simple.
But I do have hope
and I'm optimistic for our future
in all fronts.
Come on, that's a political answer.
No, it's not.
I want something about you.
What makes you happy?
Well, playing tennis makes me happy.
Working on our little farm
makes me happy, you know.
I do want to make a comment
about the...going back,
because I think happiness
and the future
and the Aboriginal issues
are all entwined.
Western Australia is providing
a good example, I think.
A few years ago, a settlement
was reached over native title
for Perth and the south-west
of Western Australia.
In value and in land area
and in economic opportunity,
and the numbers of people involved,
it will be the biggest settlement
of native title
in the past and into the future.
A price tag of $1.2 billion, funded
by a little state government.
And that, hopefully, will give -
and I hope Ray agrees -
that, hopefully, will give
Aboriginal people
a rejuvenated sense of pride
and confidence and optimism
and that economic opportunity.
So I agree with the comments made
about the incarceration
of Aboriginal people,
particularly young kids.
But, boy, there's some
really difficult issues
in a lot of suburban areas
but particularly in remote locations
and country towns.
And if I can make one final comment,
one of the problems
is too many services.
One small town in Western Australia,
Roebourne,
with a population of around 1,500,
at one stage
had over 60 government services -
state, local, university, the lot.
OK.
A complete confusion.
Let's keep it simple and give people
real opportunity and support that
and make sure...
And the health system's
pretty damn good.
OK.
And the education system
is pretty good too.
(LAUGHTER)
You can take the man
out of politics...
Ray, we're going to have to go
through this quickly
but are you happy
and are you hopeful?
It might sound strange
but my happiness,
or my inner content, comes from
two High Court decisions.
One is the Mabo decision,
where, for the first time,
we lifted the lid off Crown title
and saw underneath there
that Aboriginal people have
the best definition of sovereignty.
That we can have possession,
we can have our occupation,
our use and enjoyment of our lands.
That's the best definition
I've ever heard of sovereignty.
And the second High Court decision?
The second High Court decision
happened earlier this year.
That one they gave us a look
at our connection to land.
The one in February of this year
gave us a really good definition
of who we are.
And that was from
the Love/Thoms v Commonwealth,
which decided that even parliaments
can't separate my identity
from my connection to country.
So when I say I'm Gurang Gurang,
that particular High Court decision
made sure that I have
that kind of connection to who I am.
So those two things,
they gave me a lot of hope.
And that, in the future,
when our people start to look
at these High Court decisions,
they might be able to move
the agenda a little bit further,
particularly around the issues
around the Statement from the Heart,
where we can possibly get a treaty,
where we can possibly get
a voice in parliament
and where we can possibly have a
Truth and Reconciliation Commission.
Ronni?
Out of this opportunity...
Out of this crisis
has come the opportunity.
People have been more compassionate,
people have been kinder.
They've been more aware of the food,
the value of food,
people have been cooking at home,
making bread, breaking bread,
understanding, seeing the sky,
being able to realise that if we can
follow the science around COVID,
we can follow the science
around climate change.
I am hopeful, because people will
not forget what we've been through.
Kerry, something about tonight
makes me think you might miss
being on television a tiny bit.
No, I don't, actually. I don't.
Are you happy?
I'm happy not being on television.
Yeah?
(LAUGHTER)
Mostly.
Look, I think the one thing
that has not changed
through the course of human history
is human nature...
..good and evil
and everything in between.
And that there have been so many
challenges to our civilisation
through the course of that history,
and they have been...
..those challenges
have invariably...
I mean, obviously, there've been
some massive failures,
but here we still are.
And here we still see
good perpetrated.
So am I hopeful? Yes, I am.
Am I worried, though? Yes.
I'm also extremely worried.
And I worry mostly
about the incapacity of leadership
in the world today
to actually be seen to come to grips
with the massive problems we face.
But every time I'm surrounded
by family and good friends
and we sit around and we talk
and we enjoy each other's company
and the love
that is within the family,
those are the things
that make me most happy
and those are the things that
I think are precious for all of us.
I think you've all made us happy
tonight.
Thank you so much to our panel.
It's been a genuine honour.
Kerry O'Brien, thank you.
Jillian Broadbent, Colin Barnett,
Ray Minniecon and Ronni Kahn.
Would you please give them all
a round of applause.
(APPLAUSE)
Thanks to those of you
here in the studio
and to those of you at home,
for your questions.
Next week we ask,
who holds the power?
We look at
what's testing the relationship
between our state
and federal governments
and what it means for you.
Have a very good night.
Captions by Red Bee Media
Copyright Australian
Broadcasting Corporation
