it's s on the floor
own it's a pleasure to welcome to the
program
doctor david gregory is a uh... teacher
at the university of london an
anthropologist and author of debt the
first to five thousand years
uh... welcome to the program dr
but that's about it
uh... now i want to get you obviously
uh...
and particularly on a day like today
with her
herb uh...
multiple direct actions going on uh...
involving occupy wall street in occupy
other cities
uh... west coast on the ports of course
in new york city and the seventeen
arrested today
uh... in following a protest of goldman
sachs in deborah feel properties
and i wanna get
new your perspective on this uh...
please people on the firm were well
aware of your role in uh... in the uh...
early organization of occupy wall street
but of i've read your book it's
fascinating and i really want to work
to to get into that to start off
um... okay
let's let's just start with
the what
the concept of yet uh... because i think
that you know we all have a perception
that we know what it is in particularly
in this country and i think probably
perhaps more so uh... now across the
globe
all have the service pacific notion of
that it's a
it's a moral obligation
and then but it's also uh... to do with
financing weekly if things get inflated
and um... i think uh... the most
important thing about your book is to
really that it
that'd attempts to on wind these strands
of this error braided notions
uh... that together and debt they
explain to us what what
particularly partly contrary to popular
whatever yes
it's a promise
you know if there is no greater moral
standard what's more so than any other
problems you might make
we're going to kill your type of promise
because it's been made and personal
accounts purple
but has to say
vilify protestantism makes you can't
really pass i promise to someone else
trash what what is it that makes i
thought gap app
promise such transfer bulwark bombing
with a pocketbook
and construct which seems to be contract
her feet
conflict of math come by looks
uh... on the one hand
latka exactly quantify what's required
on the other hand
you have some sort of structure in place
june force people into going along with
it
in the camps that we weren't united
money in the federally recognized that
weary
is more a product of relations are vital
to war quarterly
and it is of
what we usually think of a just peace
portrayed
and so in other words uh...
uh... we have a situation where we we
although the concept that has indicted
or promise a
you know i promised me to at five
o'clock
yawn and and that's not something that
you could uh... transfer to someone else
has no value
i can give you somebody elton
palestinian uh... and going to do this
ridiculous you bought something comes up
that policy at five o'clock in
um... dot is a general strike trains are
running on something you know you can
always renegotiate a promise
gatsby quantity common personal because
they get when corrupted by mathematics
alm there
you can't
arm or
the idea that you really ought not to do
so
and that has
tremendous attack
because of the author of product that's
measured in money
um... at debt tend to get rid of this
totally different
at the memorial lehigh ur that a promise
that you make to someone cuba or uh...
commissar politician makes to the people
kadu leopard for i want to talk about
that that sort of the
moral ascendancy of a financial debt
even over one
of uh... you know that uh... people make
arrangements with each other i mean
people make promises all the time i
promise to uh... to uh... love you for
the rest of your life and to be your
husband wife and we have divorces all
the time um... and this product are
explicitly sacred art recruited
thousands of people brad pitt
and and so right now
you know from in africa logical
perspective do we
what which preceded him in what was the
impotence of this because in other words
uh...
you you talk about how in the book how
uh... uh...
in like you said that debt uh... becomes
sort of like the of the nexus of math
and
political
all felt violence in some way work
what preceded with chin other words d it
was it with the idea of like were away
six people who were on
stuff would want to be able to enforce
it so we need to change
debt into something that can be
calculated
will really interesting question it's
really a question of
how does money come about we're all
taught their story you know once upon a
time there was barker technically sister
i think we ought to be twenty tickets
for that travel event realistic and
inconvenient to have to have that money
on contract
activity enter politics can tell you the
truth not substitute we've never met
fighters
fighting anywhere in which everyday
transactions took platform all kind of
becoming objects
the whole
order methods based on notebook
icons that hold the spot created on bike
if you've got to be that we walk away
a bigger trouble in the olympic village
somewhere they stick with your neighbors
straight soaker
valueclick second for that calumny that
that's what happens
um...
and given the chickens right now
according to calm the studio at all
in fact
yours paper towel it's great to have
good neighboring aircraft
arm so you take them will come on take
the cow economy don't even think about a
group anti-o_j_
so if you have
this is what the fuck defined in
ordinary excited about money
everybody have sort of got everybody
elephant
they're not exactly quantified with a
reason to do so to the question is and
how do you get
from that to the point where you can
take twenty five an appeal equals five
about which is what you get money you
sort of exact
a measurement of death
an airport seems to be became clear that
it happens exactly in situations where
somebody is
xa committed violent alm
the some people get notified me
cargo carpet while codes which code type
even site upmarket
welcome
the detailed list of like you know if
somebody
diameter someone todd that's twenty
seven heifers at somebody kabir two
twenty year that certain to and so forth
and so on all
that is not the kind of situation where
each do what the picture out though or
personal p worldly toward a compromise
because that's what another like you
know i interdiction papers at the scene
fluoride
uh... intractable where they might not
have had for c_f_ substitute something
else so in fact that's where money tends
to hurt his way of measuring that's
pretty well for bible for compensation
fine and got back
usr grout work
so i'm sorry sir
just i wanna make this clear because you
know we have this perception of like you
know this debt this poll
notion of debt society and uh... the
people getting into debt is a somewhat
recent phenomenon that is destroying a
new somehow
all other some type of moral
connotations about creating deco
shouldn't be in that captain
but but in fact
even proceeded the notion of money
absolutely not
i mean i sort of having some kind of
moral obligation elite somebody
something
uh... goes way back debuted in the
country
actually figure out how much and that
you can pay it off
and drink a lot of his ideas
it's considered bfl terms of morality
it's only right that everybody sort of
each other something
for example
as to whether african societies uh...
many african societies or you may be
willing to work
albeit with considered
long perhaps have talked about souvenirs
saying like well nobody really wouldn't
need each other wants to have anything
to do teach other to somebody gives you
a president
like a sitting back there onto something
a little bit more valuable or a little
bit less valuable knew what they gave
you
because from exactly the same
dismantling c syntactic
you and then
you also
in the development of money you also
discussed sort of the the uh... the
uh... uh...
the precedent of
essentially of money being a a function
of war
warranted in fact that day
uh... that
that kick that continues
uh... the circulation of money that
um...
among the dietl white installing this
that dynamic of taxes
and military and how in some ways the
government
lost always be in debt for money to have
any value
yes what break-up this was a long story
but but but basically opportunities
credit system look water pipe a personal
credit system so you can cancel it ups
periodically experienced to open on and
intrigued
amy eddings today are
them quinn come much later
eloquent come basically two p soldiers
because or small
it's all good people most likely to be
carrying our little paper to loot gold
and silver that they break up textile
people you'd least like to extend credit
to because they are heavily armed and
cover just passing through
uh... but kingstown ok political
particles overly stamper patrolman
giving salters an f_a_a_ okay everybody
recognized anyone back again
it doesn't make any sense it's a little
bit of certain naturally mapi described
by strike
and kids would do that
so why do men taxes go up
you've been goldenthal promoters
behavior suede basically employer off
your entire population feuding salters
which was a big problem picnic
how to get yep yep fifty thousand people
i think it's good to be thompson
money cash markets markets operate on
points
tender
her around where are we talked about to
be a ministry and he got there
be to be part of military operations
army scott gets laid paper plates in the
mind of the bride liking rickles over
the case stamp it gets holders so quick
and so on
okay so you have a backup
alm
that connections between money
and war
it wasn't
some of that runs throughout history
that never like to believe talk about to
have a story that they're supposed to be
approached
help because nobody concentric
uh... they had taken well you know
there's this old fuel keychains and they
were violently
armed and and
then we have the merchants in
emergencies where money comes from an
errand you know that's the domain of
three contractors into free markets
either oppose principles market for
cystic
if you look at what do we have tickets
reno markets
can be created by states in order to
people are mixed
and returns to work in the case
of modern money actually it's paper
money but it was created
but first example of a really a sixteen
ninety four but a merchant england let
money to the came to fight a war
and soldiers
and he said okay you can take that money
i owe you and wendy back other people
uh... pick the debt basically a lender
to people
uh... in the form of paper money which
is what
pretoria triplets
became debt
to the merchants
circulated
to other people called back to you
because i don't know
bill says i've promised to pay the
bearer
ten pounds of as basically
became
work we never pay back to that
there would be no money let me just ask
you if you guys commitments up here
because this is mean this is very tense
stuff i think i just wanted to ask for a
walk slowly over a lot of my sister is
it's it's fascinating
uh... and so which is to be clear the
the and the bankers woodlawn
making money
and the gang would essentially give them
i'll use which became cash money
and exactly the king would say to the
bankers
lending us money out and so and then the
people would have these little i'll use
from the uh... from the uh... the came
here to bring and um... this is how they
would exchange it and some people would
send that back to the king ultimately in
the form of taxes
uh... backplate latch electric system
works because
became contain low introductory meeting
in the jewel what do you get threatening
all you can cancel it if you heard after
the caped his taxes
and and and really but at the end of the
detainees sorta holding someone of the
back
again' away
uh... because if they were to pay off or
someone is the bag keeps a sort of
moving around but as someone who is that
how it all
off it would make it would essentially
paul though that i would say
and so that's why he has a government
weenie
a certain amount of debt yes
precisely and in fact we were a little
bit uh... couple times in american
history harder jackson under clinton
uh... missus
andrew jackson tried to pay off the u_s_
step the revolutionary war death
everybody's complaining about it it was
a sort of moral
or we shouldn't do that
you know we got rid of that he got rid
of the central bank
you know created this type financial
panic out so they have to go back to the
dedicate
sinking under clinton is running budget
surpluses
every single year also for to uh...
seems like static gradually to get rid
of the u_s_ staff
in fact it now turns out that everybody
collect depicted
projections
discovered that you'll get there was no
doubt
economy would collapse even people like
alan greenspan
um...
if a woman we have to have it at a
certain he couldn't it made it because
you know that would be a surplus became
the interpretation that money is
factually
government that it's necessary
so she said
only can have a
budget surplus because
if there's too much money floating
around
uh... the cover for refusing to buy
something so there's gonna start buying
up bumble economy you're going to be in
congress
uh... that live in blocking but in fact
what do you think you know if there's no
government at there's no money that's
what many years mature circulating
government-backed
and uh... in some ways one of the
uh... unicef jumping four dc one oh
uh... the fear is that people talk about
of what do you make of the the fears
that people talk about that
uh... we have too much uh... we have too
much debt as a government that we must
uh...
uh... the number one crisis we have is
the deficit that the idea of uh...
borrowing of the government being this
far in debt is uh... slowing down the
economy and its extracted this money
from the private markets
write up a lot of and that we had to
true basket you know there's government
dept circulating routing x
but don't have to produce all the money
itself that the other secret
members of the bag make money
their grab it does not believe make
enough money
prompt the problem with that his
personal backwards
arm hit there was
you know no deficit at all it would be
much
greater capacity to much set
attempt to establish that what you can
create too much money floating around
that create inflation
uh... last i checked the inflation rate
in the u_s_ within our problem
the reason for that in turn speak or the
inflation only partially stripped
kicking in went when you got full
employment
and are big problem isn't that
huge unemployed
soap it's distancing from any kind of
classical economic terms
now of course
people in power can
by economists and create economic
schools which will say that whatever
they want to do is write and that's
what's going on here much more serious
economists even good
practices non-toxic
now the idea that the dead of our big
problem replaced time we have nearly ten
percent unemployment assistance saini
what's going on i think it again the
moral color
and you can always
den morality issue is the same thing you
can always appealed p
so there have been covering more all
along with it or the government to spend
preparing to act
and to protect our children
it had nothing to do it with the economy
actually works
now let's talk about this idea which
also sounds fascinating
in your book
and and because i have the many
arguments with the economic libertarians
about this the idea that the government
is interfering in the market and what we
want is afoot
all as fully free market as possible
envisioning this and this you know
getting back to that market that exists
in nature uh... before a government
archives interrupted but in fact
ever existed
absolutely got to market
the way they think of it anyway
have been historically created by
governments usually at the side effect
of military operations
and um...
occasionally need to get period in
history in which
market sort of
float free of governments to a certain
greek
upon their be pretty unusual circle
tower and start looking at
st louis different from the climate
libertarians are speaking about arm the
greatest example i given the welcome
irony of the contract which is is on the
people of all are the celtic
under the carpet it didn't have a free
market ideology into some to create the
creator of the free market
which would be our we'd be on the claims
making them
idiotic in its history
they did it by critics civil court
and the government we have nothing to do
regulating economic affairs so that
uh... and also by eliminating
for the court's baylon danny taking of
interest at all and tom
and not only and arguably when you do
that you really just creating
a different government
i mean you're creating a theocratic
structure that is just isn't pinching up
on the market as would be a government
from from from that perspective
you could take that argument i mean the
difference between those courtroom
government courts will become impotent
they couldn't actually bom
note horatio other than by destroying
your credit rating however in a place
where
you know there was no enforcement other
in the courts of contracts door
reputation with everything so you
couldn't do business logic you've got a
reputation of being an honorable person
who paid deaths
uh... it so far there was reasonable
however they are the result of that
riddled with that there was no but put
you in jail
opment at that
the i'd very idea of economic starts
looking very very different
uh... becomes a matter of personal honor
and trust reputation rather than
profit galloping
no sir
extremely competitive do you have a copy
of about
firm also went away
because as i was put it up
you know you can't have cutthroat
competition when there's nobody stop you
from actually cut again to others
throughout
right
uh... so that that notion of um... we're
gonna protect your factory now we're
gonna sit here and then almost as if you
know uh...
that what we're seeing in the courts
uh... the west coast this country right
now uh... in that situation you wouldn't
have a uh... army literally of uh...
police in riot gear with clubs and
so-called non retirement doesn't
uh... and that baghdad intern affects
believe it you can treat your workers
now i so let's move
was off asst stuff in the implications
of of all of this of course is that
and how did we get
to the point where all of these things
because we're told i mean you you also
put a line on all of this notion of the
market ixus ting uh... a separate from
the state
but also
movies or t_v_ and in the uh... the
barter
and then the uh...
trough adam smith sort of uh...
mythology eview put all this to rest
and at the end of the book and before we
get there also we also just tell us
about the wizard of oz
uh... but i do you haven't heard this
before it was fascinating and and i you
know uh... making i can't wait to sit
down my daughter watched movie again but
but tell us in the wizard of oz as a
metaphor and um...
to the extent that it was a
half-trillion
meant in this country
want nobody is able to prove
conclusively but it's good
says suggested in and it seems that even
by the time to put on the planet with
her daughter to the nineteen oh one year
after the book came out that people
thought that was a little bit about omp
differently about pride when it's a big
political struggles
was overt matrixmohali weather
they had a gold standard
and a lot of the problem it was causing
answer of technicalities which was
causing debt crises uh... to affect
farmers looting foreclosed on and
farmers were trying to when the populist
candidate
with the cold but medela phillips cooker
over standard through a lot of silver
mines cropping up time would make for a
cheaper body policies
until
we want to be expelled monetary policy
deep book appears to be a giant metaphor
for the william jennings bryan armed
populace overcame
if you know what do you get you cats
um... human dorothea
name suspiciously similar computer rodel
dorothy fields or uh... who took part of
the spartan
la family that swept away by
or cuidado
just-concluded you know transported to
lead a cause
rosie which of course worker out
onto government yellow brick road which
applied gold bars right
arm
port canaveral industry
uh... and
you lay out his
it's they tended to be flipper that
movie the shoulders flippers
there are only escape
and along the way she needs
person it's a scarecrow the scarecrow
actually represents farmers who have no
branches are located that that contract
forgetting for close up and he took in
what's known advocate astral proletariat
about your heart if you would act in
solidarity with the farmers have tried
to get
berkes political book populist candidate
beneath the cowardly lion or the
political clout to a bureaucratic they
can't pick up to the east coast and west
coast bankers who are affected
wicked witch of the east and west
and you get the idea so political
the entire things together monetary
alexa
in what is that what we learned when
uh... the wizard of oz does
what do we learn when the wizard of oz
is exposed at them
odd at the home of the system is
sizzling plan at all smoke and mirrors
um... it's not treated by ordinary sort
of funny leaves um...
and the federal reserve units at that
time but you know the local equivalents
at all kind of a scammer that make up
money and and and
he believed
in fact you talk about this
uh... money has gone sort of back and
forth
uh... from being that and maybe it's
always that no matter between did
everything being virtual credit money in
commodity money without explain the
difference in that and if there really
is any
um... meaningful difference in terms of
you know uh...
in indian intrinsic value of money
uh... of missus intellectually burt one
of the great discovery political point
book at its onto some
degree inspired by that photo thank you
card group of cold drinks
uh... defect
all two sides of the calling i would
like it
isn't that money is always to thinks
it's always both lifting a commodity and
it's also promise of social relationship
economist no there's no consensus among
economists which one is primary which
was money doing it
i'll wendy ironies of economics for that
need to know what kind of attitude they
describe a little bit possible that
money
they'll let you know what money you know
there's no consensus
what i found it a couple years back and
forth over the course of history
so any connection to pay me a it we'll
credit market
created invented much greater or sold
and practical unique scale accurate up
to measure out the tiny pieces of silver
that would have been required to buy aka
hammer
their pictures dot com chicken or
something like that social ever all
everyday kind that's interrupt credit
uh...
chevy pickup to craigslist of his work
compounded interest rates long before
the existence of the point
now then starting at six hundred and
china india and
the eight p_m_ eastern and training and
pretty much continuity uh... close to
that people embed code which seems to be
a military painstaking soldiers of the
respect
and interest bank again in the middle
ages empires collapse
arm the claims go away anybody credit
system obscurity checks cheques in
arabic word actually in in middle east
farm
you know the status of the turned the
paper money and try not to believe in
tally sticks in europe
theatrical money again sleeping
virtually disappeared big empires
crumble
uh... m
universal money and it's a that virtual
money
loses the units that were developed by
the physical money just return to
tradition yes
exactly in europe it orally copulating
example about burrito
later people reverts barker nonsense
um... again nobody was paid on t_v_
twenty-two contract out what they were
doing with your using money they
couldn't physically have best
so everybody who's using roman currency
even though the there wasn't any other
country actually around there figure it
out there making comebacks and currently
paying three lending standards are
calculating interest
you know that became technically illegal
um...
killed so they were determined pair
lieutenant at the same thing with carter
charlemagne he issued money
and that money that's almost completely
disappeared immediately
uh... piece related left britain long
however for like
another six hundred years
bouts with people you know if that's
where consoling person pants come from
bob carroll indian money
the people that you called it the
military might
local team to create their own currently
sometimes a little reinterpret limited
purposes mostly people are using credit
but all the credit contents were
calculated in this money but no longer
test
st
