 
Interviewer: Shimon Peres, hero or villain?
I didn't like him.
Interviewer: A lot of people didn't like him, huh?
Yeah but it depends, you know? 
Some people don't like him because
they consider him to be too leftist. In
my view, it is exactly the opposite
I don’t like him because he was a war criminal.
There's a debate now, that is very interesting
because you know the Joint List?
You know the term? You heard about it?
Up till the last elections, up to about 16 months ago, 
the qualifying threshold in order to get
into the Knesset was one & a half percent, okay?  
Which is which is low. So there were
different parties of the left, including
some Arab parties, that were kind of
not exactly Islamic, but including the
Islamic movement. And one party, my party
which is the Communist Party, including some liberal and some other factions
and other more national Palestinian party.
Each and one of us used to run for office by itself.
Because the qualifying threshold was very low.
Now, before the last elections, Lieberman, you know him?
You know he’s a relative of Adolf!
Relative in the ideas, I mean! Not really…
 
He and some others in the far-right,  decided to raise the qualifying threshold
in order to get rid of Arab representation 
in the Knesset.
So now it's almost four percent.
And because of that, all the Leftist parties
that are anti-Zionist leftist parties,
which is us, and some others that I mentioned
formed a so-called Joint List, in order to run together.
It's not easy
So yeah, I mean now we are the third
party in the Knesset, we have a 13 seats.
Interviewer: And the name of the party is “Joint List”?
The Joint List, yes.
So there is a real debate now, in the last two days
because the Joint List decided, the
leadership, and they of course publicly
stated, that no one of the Joint List is
going to attend Peres funeral.
So there is a real debate because 
some people, including…
including some people who support the Joint List...
They say, it was a mistake, it's not good, that it's not only shameful, but it's err…
…one person even wrote on the Facebook,
that he will never vote for the Joint List
and he added the photo of a torn, you know, note of the Joint List, you know.
And some other people, including myself, argued that it is not only reasonable, but required
not to attend the funeral.
In my view there are many reasons. First of all, many people don't remember it
partly because the media and the leaders of the world
don't care about it.
Peres was the one who actually began privatisation in Israel.
So if you come from the Left, not only as
far as the issue of the Palestinians and
occupation are concerned. But also
economically, socially speaking he was
very Rightist. It doesn't matter that he
was a leader in the past
and a member of the so-called Labour Party.
The Israeli Labour Party is a Central Rightist party.
Not only because it's Zionist, which 
in my view, is by definition Rightist.
But economically speaking as well.
It's something like Tony Blair,  you know?
 
 
 
 
Interviewer: This view is not common anymore among the Israelis anymore.
What percentage of the population, would you say, holds this anti-Zionist view?
Amongst the Jews?
If you ask them, you will find that less than 10%.
If you ask them what Zionism is...
most of them don't know, really don't know.
They were brainwashed to
define themselves as such.
But they really don't have any idea
about the history and the ideas, the ideology, anything.
Even the figures of Zionism, nothing.
I mean you know Theordor Herzl? you know the name, Herzl?
He was the founder of Zionism, the Zionist movement.
And there is a picture of him in the Knesset
Just, you know, behind where the members
of the Knesset speak when they give the speeches.
So there's a big photo
a picture of Herzl, just behind it, behind the stage.
I'm sure that
90% the members of the Knesset don't know anything about what he hoped.
For instance, in one of his books, and I don't say it to defend his ideas
because I'm against it.
But he warned Jews not to become racists.
And so many things that Israel has been doing
especially ever since it was born, you know.
But especially in the last 10-15 years, under
Netanyahu
are things that if you could wake up Herzl
to say, what was his opinion?
He would say “That's not what I wanted”.
So it drives me nuts because, for instance,
a few years ago I gave a course
at the University about the Zionist ideology.
There was something like, I don't remember, 50 students.
I think I count on one hand, how many of them actually knew anything about it.
So if you ask them, are you Zionist? They would
say yes I am Zionist, obviously.
What does it mean? I don't know. They literally don't know.
Interviewer: Can I ask what kind of pressure do you have upon you?
Can you pretty much say what you want and express what you want?
Are they watching you? Have you been threatened?
Look, I have been threatened a few times.
I don't know if you follow, but
Last December there was a row
There was a row in Israel, even a discussion about me personally at the Knesset
because I called the Minister of Justice (Ayelet Shaked) a filthy Neo-Nazi.
I don't know if you saw that?
Interviewer: Yes that's what attracted us to you!
So there was a row..
But I must say that until now at least
the University was okay.
The University said that as as long as our
professors don't say such things in
class
it's their private business.
We wouldn't get involved.
So that's okay.
For how long, I don't know?
Because you know that he Minister of
Education (Naftali Bennett) is even worse?
He's THE fascist. You know, and a
racist.
He is a disgusting figure.
Interviewer: Do you feel that you're marginalized these days?
Politically, of course yes. And even if we're talking not about me
personally but about my political affiliations.
So definitely.
I mean that's the reason that I supported my party in not going to the funeral today.
Because on the one hand, there is a systematic marginalization, systematic discrimination.
And on the other hand, you expect us to come to the funeral of this guy
who is partly responsible for this marginalization and discrimination?
Go fuck yourself!
The very expectation is so hypocritical.
Interviewer: Is there an end game, is there much intelligence behind it?
You mean an ideal solution or a realistic one?
Interviewer: These guys are moving in a direction, are they keeping a status quo?
Are they trying to encroach much deeper into the Palestinian territory?
This is a matter of fact.
Look i think that...
Netanyahu believes, and of course not
only him as a person.
Most of the government believes
that the status quo can be pursued.
Which is of course, nonsense. There are
two alternatives
either a solution or backlash.
There's nothing like status quo.
But they believe, some of them believe
and especially Netanyahu
that the conflict may be managed.
Because you know that there are two...
There are tow rooted concepts,
 in regard to conflicts anywhere.
One says, a conflict can be and must be solved.
The other says conflict can and must be conducted
or managed.
Now they believe that the conflict can be managed
instead of being solved.
And the rhetoric, of we want peace, and two states blah blah blah
it is as it is,  it's only
rhetoric. Nothing beyond that.
Interviewer: But they even came into the UN and blabber on about that
Look, I think that for now, unfortunately
and by the way, you can see it
if you follow the English politics.
I follow what's going on within the Labour Party.
This is disgusting. Because I personally for instance
I really like James (Jeremy) Corbyn.
I think he's the right guy.
But he is persecuted within the party
by some of Tony Blair's people especially.
Tony Blair knows everything, you know he
actually manages everything behind the scenes.
And they accuse him, you know in anti-semitism 
and things like that.
Yeah and you know I came late today
because I had to go to my doctor.
My doctor is English, religious.
And we we were talking, I was the last patient for Friday
So we're talking a bit. And he said, I don't
like Corbyn, he is anti-semite.
And I tried to tell him, look this is nonsense,
this is simply bullshit.
And by the way, not just because Corbyn says so
because he proved that in his deeds
not in his words.
But that's a problem, you cannot...
Israel has been… and Peres, before.
Peres was the worst, in that sense.
They manipulated any criticism of Israel
as being anti-semite.
And that, you know, once you begin with this kind of discourse
you cannot go anywhere.
It blocks any kind of thinking.
But furthermore, it blocks any way of criticizing.
What's that? Israel is beyond criticism?
You followed what happened in Berkeley
University California, like two weeks ago?
It's unbelievable!
There was a course
an analysis of the Palestinian issue.
and the President of the University prohibited 
the existence of the course.
Because it was critical of Israel.
Eventually he had to agree.
But this is crazy and it goes all over the place.
By the way, they are so... apart from being villains
apart from that, they are so stupid because this
fuels anti-semitism
it doesn't block anti-semitism. 
They are the other way around.
In the Communist Party, where I'm a member
now there aren't many, because
for biological reasons they perish!
There were many, I'm talking about hundreds
of Holocaust survivors
who were anti-zionists.
Even here you know, they were members 
of the Communist Party.
The founder of the Greek Communist Party
was a Jewish person, from Saloniki.
He was a partisan, he was a Auschwitz survivor.
It's the same in so many places, you know.
But here, the problem is that
Zionism succeeded in taking the
monopoly in Israel
that's the problem.
But it's even worse, because it seems
that it took the monopoly
not only in Israel, but in many, so many other places.
I'll give you an example: I told you before
 that I went to Uruguay last year.
I went to Uruguay, to give some lectures 
at a University there.
And a local radio station 
invited me for a discussion.
One-hour solo.
A discussion, you know, about the situation
 in the Middle East, Israel, etc etc..
During the broadcast there were many
telephone calls from
local Jews, who protested my view.
And they couldn't stand any criticism of Israel. 
Which is...
Now, I think it's not as it used to be
But even with my parents, they are not
rightist you know.
They vote for Meretz. You know Meretz?
Meretz is a...
so called Zionist leftist. In my view there's 
nothing like that, it's an oxymoron.
 
 
Interviewer: These are the most difficult to persuade, in a way. Because they believe that they're the good guys
"We are not like the Likud party, we are the nice guys"
So that's what I meant before, something
that I wrote on the Facebook
on my wall, is that
because of this debate, it’s part of the debate
whether the Joint List, the representatives,
 members of the Knesset,
their leaders, you know, public
figures, had to go or not
to the funeral.
Now my reaction was as follows,
and I mention it because I think it
summarizes in a few words, you know,
what is the opinion that I personally
believe should be adopted.
Martin Luther King
said once about the black struggle, in the United States
He said "We do not want to be integrated OUT of power...'
"...we want to be integrated INTO power".
Now I think that's the whole story.
Because people expected the leaders of the 
Palestinian national minority in Israel
to come to this funeral as if they were
integrated OUT of power.
And I think that when...
once they said, we won't come
they actually said, in other words
"We are coming until we are integrated
INTO power".
and that's the whole issue.
Because they want them to be...
we call it in Hebrew, sort of you know...
Puppet Arabs.
Puppy Arabs.
Interviewer: But that's not gonna happen
 because too much shit’s gone down, right?
You know its politics, it's a result of struggle
There's no example… 
there's one example in modern history..
where a state
succeeded, or agreed
and gave away voluntarily, a specific 
area or territory, and rights.
It's the case:
in 1905, Norway was under the rule of Sweden.
Once the Norwegians said, 
We want to establish our own State.
The Swedish said, Okay.
That's the only example.
Apart from that...
Apart from that, every time it was, you know...
it involved their struggles.
There are some other examples
where a controlling state agreed.
But under specific, you know, with...
or within circumstances, and with quite harming results.
But normally it's a struggle.
Of course the Palestinians will never get
anything, if they don't struggle for it.
Now that doesn't mean that each and
every act of struggle is justified.
For instance, to come here, you know
here, just a few meters from here.
A few months ago
there were two Palestinians entered, 
and began to shoot people.
You know, that's something that I 
personally cannot accept.
But struggle as such for liberation
especially for such a vicious and brutal occupation.
This is something totally acceptable and reasonable.
Interviewer: But yet it is bandied about as if it is unreasonable, by everybody.
Yeah I agree.
Because they conflate...
normally not always,
But they conflate very often, too often
between the Palestinian struggle 
for liberation and freedom
and the ISIS struggle for fanaticism.
And they put those... and Netanyahu 
knows how to manipulate them.
Interviewer: This thing (Netanyahu) said about ethnic cleansing because they don't want Jewish people in their neighbourhood.
Such a fucking demagogue.
It's unbelievable, because he caused so
much damage to the Israeli society
and he is still the most popular figure,
political figure.
Interviewer: Will he get another term?
If he likes that.
The one that threatens him is Yair Lapid. 
You know Yair Lapid?
We need 10 hours to talk about this moron.
He's the leader of the so-called Central Party.
But it's Central my ass, you know...
He's also Rightist.
But this guy is also so stupid and ignorant.
It's unbelievable that now in the polls, 
he is leading over Netanyahu.
He used to be a journalist.
He wrote in a newspaper, for instance
about Copernicus, as an ancient Greek philosopher.
Copernicus, the Polish astronomer.
Things like that.
He is ignorant and stupid.
And he is very popular because the people are ignorant.
They are made like that to be, you know.
Interviewer: What about the younger generations?
Do you think their mindset can be influenced 
by the real facts?
Unfortunately the polls, 
and some academic research shows
that the most Rightist in Israel are the youth.
Which is a very bad prospect for the future.
In Israel, when you are 16,  you get the 
first call to the army
just to attend, you're not recruited at this stage.
Interviewer: But its mandatory right, what happens if you don't go?
Yes, I’ve been in jail four times, for not going 
into the occupied territories.
But in reserve... not in the...
When I was 18 I went there just like
everybody else, because I was brainwashed too.
Interviewer: So you had a change of mind?
During the service actually...
Interviewer: Really? Because it's understood to have a kind of enabling effect...
On both sides you can find....
Interviewer: So you were a young man 
and you saw the bullshit that was going on.
And you began to change your mind?
Look I was never a Rightist.
I went to a youth movement
which is associated with the Zionist left.
And I went to the army. I even was, you know
in the parachuters, and things like that.
But during the service, I began to think differently.
And thereafter when I went to the University, 
it fostered, you know.
And then once I was called to the
reserve to go to the territories.
I said no, and then I went to jail.
Time and time again.
And then I went for my studies
in England and the United States
and in South America.
When I came back, there was the 
Second Intifada, you know?
And then I said, it doesn't matter
if call me to go to the territories or
otherwise, I won't go anywhere.
So they just told me, ok go home, and that's it.
Because they understood that, err...
you know, they knew 
that I'd already went four times to prison.
So they realised that there’s no, err…
Interviewer: That it's wasting everybody's time.
Yeah, exactly.
Interviewer: So then in your view, what is the intelligent way out of this situation?
Look, I think that...
ending the occupation,
 is basically the most important thing.
Justice demands that, first and foremost.
But not only justice.
But also, realistically speaking...
Reconciliation cannot begin with the occupation
and of course there are some other aspects.
Because when we talk about ending the occupation...
it means a one state solution, two state solution.
I think this is marginal.
I think the most important thing.
 is that the occupation ends.
And all settlements are dissolved, you know.
There's nothing like "preserving settlements".
Interviewer: You think that those people should be removed from those homes?
And they should be allowed to be occupied by the Palestinian people or..?
It doesn't matter. I don't know.
It may be destroyed, I don't know.
For sure they cannot live there.
Because...
and this is the demagoguery…
of Netanyahu
when he's talking about ethnic cleansing, 
and all this rubbish.
Because, those people have been living for 40-something years now...
almost fifty...
on stolen land, you know.
The Palestinians...
and any reasonable person, need not be a Palestinian,
cannot accept
There's no equilibrium
there's no balance between Palestinians living in Israel
because the state invaded.
Whereas in the occupied territories...
also the state invaded, AND the settlers.
So they cannot... the equation that Netanyahu did...
is a cheap, lousy, stupid, fascist, fiction and demagoguery.
So there's no way...
once a Palestinian leader...
he's been dead for many years now, told me...
that they, the Palestinians, have no problems with settlers
but they have problems with settlements.
That means, he said, in a Palestinian State...
we don't mind to have settlers,
 but we will never have settlements.
Because the settlement is a political issue, 
it's a political endeavour.
Settlers as individuals, living amongst them, 
if you agree - no problem.
I'm not trying to make an idealization.
There are racist and fascist amongst Palestinians too.
And they..
it's not just, you know, all the Palestinians are good,
 and all the Israelis are bad.
It's rubbish.
But basically, settlements cannot stay there, 
because they are one of the sources,
the main sources, of the conflict.
Once they are dissolved in my view,
if it is done, you know, in an appropriate way
and there is a reliable, sustainable, 
independent Palestinian State,
I believe this is the first stage, 
on a very long track, towards reconciliation.
Because the State of Israel cannot remain 
a Jewish State, in my view either.
Interviewer: Yeah right, I agree, because it’s racist by its very definition.
By definition, by definition.
 
 
