[opening sound 🎵]
Scott Galloway: We're here with Kara Swisher,
editor-at-large and the founder of Recode.
Kara
Kara Swisher: Yes.
Scott Galloway: Coming off the big event,
the Davos of Digital, the Code Conference.
Kara Swisher: The Davos of Digital?
Scott Galloway: Do you like that?
Kara Swisher: No, I don't!
Scott Galloway: What are the two or three "Aha"
moments that came out of the conference
for you in terms of illuminating
someone's personality
or what they might be doing?
Kara Swisher: Well, I think, there were a couple.
We had, obviously, Facebook's Sheryl
Sandberg and their CTO Mike Schroepfer there.
Their inability to... they were
trying really hard to be open and
transparent, but it's like an endless
series of revelations that they're data hoarders.
You know, that they're data thieves essentially.
Scott Galloway: It just keeps getting worse and worse.
Kara Swisher: It gets worse and of course, none of
 this should be a surprise.
Of course they gave their data to the phone services.
Of course they gave their data
to app providers. They needed to grow
this platform and data was the candy to
get everybody as part of it. That's what
they have to give out.
And while they don't technically give it
out, they they hoard it and use it. 
You cannot get away from
their basic business model, as we've
talked about.
Scott Galloway: Mmhmm. My impression is their business is stronger than ever
that the media is angry about it but no one else cares.
Is that your impression?
Kara Swisher: Well, you know,
interesting—I had an interview with
Antonio Garcia Martinez, who had
created some of these systems when he
worked at Facebook and he said the same
thing—that people don't care about
privacy. They willingly give it away. 
I think if there's some sort of data
apocalypse? Yes, people will care and when
people understand the implications but
in general people like the product and
they're using it until they aren't using
it, just like AOL or anything else. 
I think that's really where their big
problem will be is that it will become
like... people will have something else to do.
Scott Galloway: People keep talking about the low
morale at Facebook and I don't know if
that's the media just barking or if, in
fact, that this scandal is taking a toll
on the culture and morale at Facebook. You're out there.
Kara Swisher:  Um, I don't know if the media barks, 
but thank you.
They meow more than anything else.
Scott Galloway: Howl.
Kara Swisher: Howl, whatever. You know, I think definitely people there are,
it is a reckoning situation.
People feel badly about the hundreds of
millions of dollars they've made off of
data hoarding, essentially. And so right
now they're at a place where they kept
the money, they keep the money, they don't
ever give it back. You never see them
saying, now I'm going to give back my
ill-gotten gains, um, but they definitely are
contemplating, do I really want to do
this really? And I've heard that a lot
from people: Is what I want to do for
a living? It's like, do I want to sell
sugar water, maybe, if you were at Coke, or,
do I want to sell sticks of death if you
were a cigarette maker maybe. You know what I
mean? Like, you can hear that in their
voices, that maybe they've gone too
far in how they made their money.
Scott Galloway: Do you hear it in the Zuck's voice? 
I don't hear it.
Kara Swisher: No, I don't think he thinks anything's
wrong with it. No, no. I mean he's
definitely being reflective. I don't
think he likes being pilloried this way,
and I don't think he... I think compared to
most CEOs, he's very thoughtful about it
and I don't think he feels great about
it but I never, I don't think it ever
occurred to him until now. And as usual,
they're in survival mode. You
know, like we're gonna... they don't ever...
I don't think they've... anyone...
many people do not reflect
very well on what someone says, like what
happened Tim Cook made that comment
about, "I wouldn't be in this situation."
Instead of going, listening to what Tim
Cook said, which, some of which was very
cogent... It was all... it was all very cogent—
Tim Cook's really cogent. But it was all
smart. Instead of saying, I'm listening to
this very smart guy who runs a nearly
trillion dollar corporation, maybe, who
has this experience of many decades—they
immediately went into attack mode at Apple.
Like—they're making money from
iPhones. How dare they say this about us.
You know? iPhones are expensive! News
at 11! Like nobody knew that.
And so that, to me, was more 
interesting than anything else.
The reaction to the Apple remarks 
was not, to me, what an adult would do.
It's what a recalcitrant teenager would do.
Scott Galloway: So do you think
Apple is actually cleaner?
Because as a father—you know, we both have boys.
And I see that that crack-like addiction.
I see what feels like massive tax
avoidance. Is this disingenuous, or do you
think Apple really does take their responsibilities 
to be corporate citizens more seriously?
Kara Swisher: Well, you know,
they're still a corporation so fewer
taxes is what they love. You know? No
matter what. You can't pretend that these
companies.... these companies like to pretend
they're not big corporations and they are.
And if they can get a tax break,
they'll get a tax break.
That said, I think they do, they do consider privacy a
much more sacrosanct thing, comparatively.
But their business isn't about that and
they couldn't do it if their business
was about that. And so they... they can be...
they can afford to be, you know,
holier-than-thou about it. I don't think
they're even holier-than-thou.
Just they can afford to say, 
we don't like this business.
Because one—they don't like this business and, 
two—it hurts a competitor like Facebook.
And look, Facebook's not precisely a competitor
but it, it distances them from that kind of scummy....
Scott Galloway: It depositions them, yeah.
Kara Swisher: Like, we do not want to be affiliated
with these people, essentially.
That said, their business is about addiction, and
using these phones more, and it was
interesting, those announcements about
how to, you know, grayscale the phone and
know what you're using, and more
awareness is a smart move by them.
Scott Galloway: So, relationship with the press. 
Staying quiet for five, six, whatever it was—
eight days post the Cambridge Analytica. 
Will that go down as one of the worst
moves in terms of handling the
press in history from Facebook?
Kara Swisher: Yes, I believe so. 
Not the worst move—like, Nixon did a bad job.
Scott Galloway: Nixon? Ok. Nixon and Cambridge Analytica—that's our bar.
What do you think happened?
Kara Swisher: It was terrible, it was so slow to react.
Scott Galloway: Were they just
deer-in-the-headlights? Or they thought it
wasn't a big deal? What actually happened
that week where they didn't..
because they really shot themselves in the foot.
Kara Swisher: I think
Facebook is one of the more....
companies that compromises quite a bit publicly.
And I think they were weighing
everything from a legal and PR point of
view. Instead of being honest about what
was going on. You know, just the contrast
between Facebook and, say, Snapchat.
That interview I did with Evan Spiegel.
Boy, could you see every insecurity, every
difficulty on his face. And he didn't shy
away from saying—this is a problem,
this is a this. And so I think 
what Facebook does is,
they weigh every word, and that's what it feels like.
Scott Galloway: Well, 700 people who work in 
PR and communications at the firm.
Kara Swisher: They have so many
people and they're the best.
They really are, but I think what happens is they
lose their humanity. And I think a lot of
whether people care or not—it mattered.
And I think that was what it was.
It's not the press overreacting to this. They
had a platform they mishandled.
They had a platform they mismanaged. 
It wasn't necessarily malevolent
but it sure was sloppy, and these were supposed to be the best managers in Silicon Valley.
And they're doing great but they didn't have
control of their platform and their
platform is massive and and important
and impacts people and so if they
weren't responsible, they should be held
to task whether or not the public cares.
You know, like cigarette manufacturers, like
anybody else. They're doing something
that's dangerous—that could be
potentially dangerous.
One of the things that came through in
that interview was Sheryl was like, we
had no idea there were so many bad
people in the world. We were looking at
the good people. Well, you know, like you
didn't notice the bad people?
Scott Galloway: How sweet.
Kara Swisher: We didn't know it could be 
misused this way. Well, why didn't you?
What's wrong with you that you have this?
It's literally like saying, you know—
Dr. Frankenstein your monster is ruining the
village. Like, what? What?
It was supposed to be a gentle giant. 
We had no idea.
I mean, you sort of sit there and you're like—
are you kidding me?
Scott Galloway: He's actually very nice at home.
Kara Swisher: Yeah, yeah.
Scott Galloway: So do you think, in terms of Facebook, do you think it gets worse?
Or do you think the safeguards they're putting in place are largely gonna, gonna be effective?
Kara Swisher: Well, I think the press isn't giving up on it.
These New York Times stories, you know, 
are really interesting.
Like every day there's gonna
be someone else they gave data to.
Today it's the Chinese. Yesterday was the phone
manufacturers. I'm waiting for the
Putins, that like, they hand-delivered
information to Putin or something like—
they didn't do that.
Scott Galloway: Breaking news!
Kara Swisher: Breaking news! 
Um, you know I think they have a platform
that's very... is a sieve... 
is clearly—the safeguards
around their use of data are not as
robust as they need to be.
Scott Galloway: What do you think happens? Do you think there's regulation? Trustbusting?
What do you think happens?
Kara Swisher: It would be in a very... in a... 
in a rational political situation?
Sure, yeah—it would be.
Scott Galloway: And what about our situation?
Kara Swisher: I think they'll
get away scot-free. I don't know, and
maybe if the Democrats get back... 
the Democrats are pretty pissed.
And they're, you know I've interviewed 
Cory Booker and a bunch of..
Kamala Harris, it's obvious, has concerns
There's FTC commissioner... you know...there's...
they broke the consent decree.
There's people gutting. They're not the
favorite and people will have a long
memory of this, I think, for sure.
Scott Galloway: So you know these people.
Kara Swisher: Yes.
Scott Galloway: And if management team...
 if management and intellect and, you'd like to think,
integrity and, over the long term, has an impact on stakeholder value—
what management team would you bet
on? Who are you consistently just
impressed with and think—
these guys are really operating?
These guys and gals are operating at a high level?
Kara Swisher: Well, everybody has their
positives and negatives, right?
I think Apple is, although...
Scott Galloway: Although you're not.. 
that's such bullshit, that's not like you.
Kara Swisher: No, no, no—look, I would say, 
Amazon, that's a really cohesive
group of people. But it's all dudes and
look what happened with Roy Price.
So, they have no insight into... that issue.
And they really screwed up.
So, but they're very good at the other stuff. 
I think they're really, they've very smart
on how they make decisions there.
Scott Galloway: So Amazon is the first trillion-dollar company? People...
Kara Swisher: No, I think Apple. I think Apple, again....
Scott Galloway: Ok, the better question—
the first two trillion dollar company?
Kara Swisher: The first two trillion. Oh.
Amazon.
Scott Galloway: Amazon? Yeah, ok. 
So the team you least want to compete against?
Kara Swisher: Amazon.
Scott Galloway: Amazon.
Kara Swisher: I would say. But Apple, too.
Netflix? What an interesting group of people. 
I think they make a lot of right moves but
they're not going to make all of them. 
I think all of them suffer from lack of
diversity and going forward. And I don't
mean just, like, you have to have one from
column A and one from column B—but, it's a
diversity of thought and I think that,
ultimately, will kill a lot of these
companies is that they're almost too...
One of the things that Facebook, and I talked
about this with Sheryl on stage, and I've
talked with Facebook executives, is they
celebrate their cohesion.
They've all been together 10 years. I don't
necessarily celebrate cohesion.
I like irritants and so—where are the irritants
in the system that are looking for the
next thing? They're all so rich, they fly
on their private planes.
Scott Galloway: Easy to— 
impossible not to become insular.
Kara Swisher: Not just insular,
but like, I don't even know, there is
something beyond insular—is that they
don't have any idea...
Scott Galloway: Tone deaf.
Kara Swisher: Everything. Everything. Why should they?
Everything is like, they move their hand 
and there's a new Kombucha shake in their hand.
And like, they have their plane and they go from here.
They don't wait in lines. I know it sounds crazy, 
but they don't wait in lines.
They don't understand the friction of life, 
or the, or the possibility of disaster
um, because they're,
because they're insulated—
but it's more, it's more than that.
Scott Galloway: So some of the other companies—
we always talk about the big four
and at five and six, Microsoft and Tesla. 
Can you—some smaller companies
where you're just consistently impressed
by management and think they're a...?
Kara Swisher: Brian Chesky at Airbnb? I'm always, we had him on stage. I really, I think he's a very
thoughtful young man. I think he's smart.
I think they face challenges. I think he
acknowledges them. I am always... I love
their product. He does see his
challenges and the difficulties—it
doesn't mean it's gonna last, but I like
that group of people. I find them... um, I do like, uh, I always like Netflix and Reed Hastings is always....
Scott Galloway: Probably the most
underrated CEO, right? What they pulled off is...
Kara Swisher: No, I think he's a highly rated....
Scott Galloway: But when you, if you look at the press, 
it's Zuckerberg...
and you don't hear about Reed nearly
as much as the other guys.
Kara Swisher: I remember having him to Sundance 
10, 15 years ago with... we had Jason Kilar,
who was just starting Hulu, him, um, and the...
the... Chad Hurley who had just founded YouTube
It was a long time ago, when
they were very small—all of them.
And I—we were in a basement and, and I kept
saying these... this, this guy especially is
going to be huge, and there was, like, 20
people from Hollywood and they were like,
oh, we don't understand this streaming thing or
whatever they were doing.
Um, I find him to be—why he's on the board of Facebook, I think he's having a big impact there
I think he's very difficult on that board. 
Not difficult, but in a good way.
Scott Galloway: Really?
Kara Swisher: Yeah I think he's really challenging 
them on that board.
That's what I've heard, but in an adult way. 
I think he's just an adult, he's always interesting,
He's very thoughtful—I think he's on the board of Microsoft, too.
He's on the board of a couple...
maybe he left Microsoft's board, but...
I find him to—I find what they do 
flawless a lot of the time
like, and creative and innovative, so, I like that
about them and they're making big bets
but in cogent ways. They're not crazy kind of bets.
Um, so I like that group. I like Airbnb.
Different—totally different personality, 
Airbnb, but I like them.
Scott Galloway: So let's go the other way. 
If a company crashes, big scandal—
You look back and say, that doesn't surprise me?
Kara Swisher: Well, Uber.
Scott Galloway: Uber. Still?
Kara Swisher: Well, no, we had Dara on stage just recently. He's obviously the adult in the room and...
Scott Galloway: He's so likable.
Kara Swisher: He's so likable, isn't he?
Don't you want to just... he's just, like—good guy!
Scott Galloway: He's just a nice guy. 
Will you be my friend?
Kara Swisher: Yeah, he really
is and he looks good,
he's, like, very confident. Um, he's not like a shy,
retiring person either so he's got a
little bit of swagger to him. I think
that's the difficult challenge he has on
lots of issues—in terms of drivers, in
terms of making money, in terms of
navigating the self-driving stuff, and in
changing a very toxic culture.
And I don't know if that's possible. I think
cultures are born from the beginning of
companies. And at the start, if it is
toxic—how do you turn that around in a
way that's... I think he's... I've always
thought he and others are misjudging the
depth of that toxicity at that company.
Scott Galloway: You would think from back here 
that all these guys hate each other
because they all feel like 
they're the rightful heir to the throne.
Do they get along? Do these guys hang out at all? 
Are they—do these companies work...
Kara Swisher: No.
Scott Galloway: They don't.
Kara Swisher: No.
Scott Galloway: They're each others—
Kara Swisher: I don't think they dislike each other.
I think they're from different eras—
like, Tim Cook's a different age.
Mark has his little group.
I don't, you know—I don't... there's a
social construct there but it's not like,
like Hollywood. It's not like that.
They're not constantly at parties
together and hanging out.
Scott Galloway: There you go. 
Last question—if someone was coming out of
Columbia School of Journalism 
right now—what advice....would you give them?
Kara Swisher: Don't go to 
Columbia School of Journalism.
Scott Galloway: Don't go—say they make
a mistake and they go to graduate school in journalism.
Kara Swisher: I wish I had taken that 10, whatever it cost at the time, five thousand, whatever—
it was 100 years ago and invested in Apple.
I wish I had done that.
Because I would have been sittin' pretty
Scott Galloway: Well, that's not advice. 
If someone someone said—I'm in, I'm...
Kara Swisher: I don't know why—I think you
should get a job.
Scott Galloway: Get a job.
Kara Swisher: Get a job.
Scott Galloway: So, not in journalism, 
or... what do you mean?
Kara Swisher: Sure, yeah, if you like to write, yeah, 
I mean, there's never been more opportunity.
There's so many opportunities to do things. 
There's so many opportunities to be...
I think you could do, have a whole 
career writing on Twitter like I do.
You and I do—we're always tweeting at people.
Scott Galloway: Yeah, I'm not sure it's a career but...
Kara Swisher: No, but I like it—I enjoy it.
Scott Galloway: It's fun.
Kara Swisher: Yeah, it is fun.
Scott Galloway: Kara Swisher, Editor at Large and founder of Recode.
Kara Swisher: Large editor, is what I am. [laughs]
Scott Galloway: There you go. 
Thanks for your time, Kara.
Kara Swisher: Thank you.
[🎵 "Sunglasses" by Hopium 🎵]
[🎵 I keep my sunglasses on.... 🎵]
[🎵so you can't see inside my soul 🎵]
[🎵 "Sunglasses" by Hopium 🎵]
