Benjamin, we're in St. Louis,
just miles from Ferguson. And about a year
ago, you were playing the Baltimore Ravens
in the Superdome.
Yeah.
And the whole world, though, wasn't
watching Monday Night Football for once,
their eyes were on Ferguson. Do you
remember when you saw what was happening,
what you felt?
Yeah, I do. I...we were playing Monday
Night Football, the season had been going
so-so. We were playing the Baltimore
Ravens. And, I can remember preparing for
the game, and we knew that at some point
the decision was going to be made.
It's crazy that I was even able to watch
some of the stuff, because during the NFL
season you're just thinking about
football. And so I remember going through
the game, Monday Night Football ends
really late. Fortunately for us it was a
home game, we lost, which was doubly bad.
And then, I remember my wife telling me
they'd made a decision in the whole
Ferguson case. And this is about 11:30 or
so...
So are you at home or is she texting you
or what...
I'm actually, she's at the game, and so
after the game, you know I get dressed, do
the interviews whatever. Come out to meet
her, and the first thing she says was
nothing about the game. She says, "They
made a decision," because her Facebook,
her Twitter, all that stuff was blowing
up. And everybody had a response, and so I
asked and then she told me what the
decision was. And I had been watching this
since it happened in August. When it first
happened in August we were in training camp.
And so we were at The Greenbrier,
which is in West Virginia, training camp,
I turned the TV on at night after a
training camp day and kind of saw the
incident and what happened. And so I'd
been following it on CNN, or Fox News
throughout the last few months, and was
really interested in seeing what was going
to happen. I heard all of the pundits had
their ideas, and you can remember all the
political activists, you can remember the
protests, you can remember the different
lawyers coming on the shows and talking
about what they thought would happen.
And so there was this tremendous build up to
that date. And so when it happened I had a
lot of, a lot of emotions like everybody
else did. And so I can remember coming
hope, we live about 15 minutes from the
Superdome. I remember coming home, going
upstairs to my room, and I didn't really
think about the game, turning on the TV,
seeing some of the unrest that was going
on, you know, not too far from here.
You know, and just seeing those images that
were in my head, and kind of reflected
what was in my heart and in the heart of a
lot of, a lot of people.
There was such turmoil at that point.
You know what, why don't we take a look
at that, and re-live a little bit of what
was going on that night.
So when you saw that, as a black man...
Yeah.
And you were thinking, "What am I going
to do about that?" Why did you sit down
and type out this now infamous, viral post?
A lot of times when I have feelings, I
write them down. It wasn't the very first
time. I've written some other things,
mostly about football, about my faith,
combining the two, kind of seeing lessons
in between. This was the first time I
really ventured out, I think, and really
talked about such a divisive social issue.
And I didn't know what to do, to be honest
with you. I knew I wanted to do something,
and I knew there was a lot I was thinking
about, and when you play on Monday night,
you have Tuesday off, in general. But then
you're right back on Wednesday. And so
between Monday night and Tuesday I was
trying to figure out what I was going to
do and how I felt. And what I wanted to
say. And within that time, I sent it off,
and my phone actually died, and it was my
wife who told me, "Did you write something
on Facebook, because my Facebook's going crazy?"
So you wrote the whole thing with your
thumbs?
Yeah, with my thumbs. Yeah, yeah. That's
what we've come to in America now. We've
come to a point where we can do all of
that on an iPhone on the Notes app, not
even on a word processor.
So you didn't like, edit it, nothing,
just write, just boom?
I thought a lot about it. I erased some
things, and re-did some things, and you
know, thought about it, and did I really
want to do that. But I knew that I wanted
to write something about how I felt.
Because again, this was something that the
entire world, I think, was paying
attention to.
So, that little note app turned into a
Facebook post, that, let me get this right.
900,000 likes, 500,000 shares and
almost 90,000 comments.
Yeah.
And, that post is really what turned
into your book, "Under Our Skin."
And at the time I didn't even know how
to post to Facebook. I had a, I had a
website, you know, because my, you know
I'm an athlete, and athletes are supposed
to have websites, and Facebook and
Instagram and all that stuff. And so my
publicist was saying, you know, "We've got
to do this Facebook thing, " I said okay.
So they just put stuff up there, fan page,
that sort of thing. And so I actually had
to send it to them, say, "Would you put
this on Facebook for me?" And they put it on there.
So now I know about it, now I'm
involved with Facebook now, but at the
time I wasn't even involved. And then,
that happened, which was really surprising to me.
So that post really was the catalyst for
this book that we're talking about, "Under
Our Skin." Yes, yes.
Why a book?
It was offered to me, and it was a
proposal, and there was an idea from the
literary agent that this may work: a book. And I'm saying "No, not me, write a book, I
can't write a book, I gotta go to training
camp, I don't have time to write a book."
But over the course of a few months I
really got my thoughts together, and kind
of, "Under Our Skin" is an expansion of
the Facebook post.
Yep.
What was your response to Ferguson?
Well...
As a white man?
Yeah. I grew up in a rural community,
just south of St. Louis. A racist
community, quite frankly. But I was an
athlete and so, tons of my friends were
black, and so...and I liked hip-hop, and
we played sports and we had fun together,
and so I never really thought much about
it. But when Ferguson happened for me, it
exposed some stuff in me that I don't
think I really knew about myself. You
know, I'm a pastor in a multi-ethnic
church, in a racially divided city. But
when I saw the response of our city to
that event, I thought, "Well...why? What's
the outrage?" I mean I get it, but I
didn't get it. To the point that I had to
come in front of our church and repent,
because I just, I thought I knew but I didn't know.
And I still don't know.
Yeah.
But I realized, man, there's some stuff
going on in my heart, and I liked the
phrase in your book "living room racist."
I think I had some of that in me, and I
didn't even... I didn't even realize it
until I just saw my response to the city's response.
Yeah, yeah. And I think...that's what I
saw after the post. Is that people were
saying, "white and black," they're saying,
you know, "That's kind of what I wanted to
say but I didn't know quite how." But also
they were saying, "Man, it's kind of challenging."
Yeah, "How dare you," right?
Yeah, exactly, like how are we were
responding to these things and we respond differently.
You know, we all have our own
lenses that we grow up with, our own
assumptions that we grow up with. And then
when we see these events that happen and
are so polarizing, and we see the lines
drawn on each side and we always find
ourselves saying, "Which side of the line
do I need to be on?"
Yeah.
And unfortunately, but realistically, a
lot of times we align ourselves with people that look like us.
That's right.
Bottom line, that's our natural tendency
as humans. And so, it's awesome that you
were able to see that, and that you were
able to confront it, and that you were
able to repent from it.
Yeah.
I mean, that's a first step when it
comes to dealing with issue of race, is
that it's not a problem that's out there,
it's a problem that's in here that all of
us have. And that we need to look inside
and say where do we fit in the whole
narrative of Ferguson, or the whole
narrative of Eric Garner or the whole
narrative of whatever it is, going back to
when Africans first got here; what's this
narrative that's been woven through the
tapestry of America and how do we view
ourselves in that?
You know what's interesting is, you
know, me growing up kind of in that rural,
kind of quasi-racist deal, without a dad.
You grew up with a strong dad and grandfather.
Yeah.
One of the things in the book that I
thought was interesting is your Pop-Pop,
which is what you call grandpa, right?
Yeah, uh-huh.
He says, "When you're black, there's
always a ceiling."
Yeah.
And you interacted with that idea, tell
us about that.
Yeah, well, Pop-pop was my father's dad.
Pop-pop lived in Washington, D.C. and we
grew up in Norfolk, Virginia, which is
about three and a half hours, but if my
dad's driving it's about five hours from
Washington D.C. He'd drive below the
speed limit. But we would go up there and
visit him, and it was just kind of a
different world. One of the things that my
mother always told me that he would say
was that there was only so far that you
could go. And that no matter how much
education you had, how polite you were,
how deserving you were of a promotion or
certain job, there was always this glass
ceiling, and you just couldn't break it.
You know, and that was the world that he
lived in. That was his reality. And, you
know, for me, it's...there's still
remnants of that that I feel sometimes.
You know, obviously in my profession, it
is a very, you know, athletic based
profession, performance based profession,
and so obviously, you know, no matter what
color you are can you go out there and do
it on the field. But even within that, it
wasn't very long ago where, you know,
blacks couldn't play middle linebacker
because you had to make calls.
Yeah, or quarterback.
Or quarterback, because you had to make
calls. Or center, because you touch the
football and you'd, maybe you--
Or coach, or G.M.
Exactly, exactly. So there are still
remnants of that that are trickled down
since Pop-Pop. Pop-Pop passed away two--a
year ago, a year and a half ago. And so
unfortunately he's not going to be able to
read the book, but he is a very big part
of my experience.
Yeah. Some of those cultural issues,
that I've found as well, revolve around
music. And you talk about your love-hate
relationship with hip-hop.
Yeah, ah...
So bring us into that a little bit.
You're going to get me in trouble now.
It goes deep. It goes deep, you know.
Hip-hop is kind of the music of, I would
say, my generation. Black, white, in
between, everybody, everybody loves it.
But the gripe I have is a lot of hip-hop
isn't, number one, honoring to God. And as
a believer, my number one goal is to be
honoring to my Lord and Savior. And I want
to listen to things that push me in that
direction. But they also don't build up
family, don't build up the relationship
between husband and wife, don't respect
women in a lot of ways. The language, you
know, we're told to watch our tongue, the
language is deplorable sometimes.
But I get that, but how do you...the
music, and the creativity...
It's beautiful!
But how do you do that, like as a Christian
man, how do you go, "I love that, but I,
man..." Bring me into that, the song comes
on the radio in the locker room.
It's strong. Oh, you're going to feel
it. And, you know, in warm ups, you feel
it, you know, you get it inside you and
you're ready to go. You know, it hits a
switch, but that's the controlling power
of music. That's not by accident.
Right.
My whole thing with hip-hop started very
young, you know, I was...it was Snoop Dogg
was the first thing that I heard, and I
got in trouble because my little brother
somehow took the tape and played it while
I was at school. Tape I wasn't even
supposed to have, it wasn't mine, it was
my friend's. So my dad, you know, heard
it. When I came home he had some words for
me. And you know, it wasn't very good. So
I've always had this kind of -- that's why
I don't like Snoop Dogg to this day, you
know. I deal with everybody else but not
him because he's just bad memories. But my
love-hate relationship is because it's a
beautiful music. It's poetry, you know, it
sounds good. It moves the emotions and the
heart. I like the way it makes me feel, I
like the sound of it. But on the other
side, I see that, you know, if you're not
able to separate that, and this is life,
it can promote things that are not
positive for black people. Or for anybody
else, but, if we're looking at it in the
realm of black people, a lot of it, some
of it does, but overwhelmingly a lot of it
doesn't do things to help us move forward.
Yes.
And when you talk about the use of the N
word in the music, it doesn't weaken the
word by continuing to use it. What it does
is, it makes you not realize the power of
that word, because there's still power in
that word. And it's disrespectful to
those, in my opinion, who died hearing
that word.
Yeah. So the thing I appreciated, I
think the most in the book, I mean there
were so many things, was your emphasis on
changing the world through relationships.
And what struck me is, you know, part of
my repentance as I talked about, about the
whole Ferguson response and my heart's
response to that response, was I realized,
“Hey, I've had black friends in my home
for meals, hung out in numerous places.
But I'd never had any of my black friends
over for any holidays. ” And so, last
Thanksgiving, right after all this, we
have a single dad in our church, and
didn't really have anywhere to go--
Yeah.
...with his daughter. And I had him in
our house. And it was a game changer for
my family. And you talk about your
relationships in the book, like, bring us
into some of those relationships with your
white friends, and how that has helped
you, shaped you, and then how that's the
way forward in this issue.
Well, the number one piece of advice
that I would tell a white man, when asked
about black people, is to not say, "I've
got five black friends!" That's like what
you don't say.
That's the worst thing, yeah.
That's the worst thing.
"I listen to hip-hop!"
"I listen to hip-hop, I've got five
black friends! Uh...they came in my house
one time!" You know, that's like..."okay,
whatever, you're a racist." You know, but
no, I mean... What you're saying is right.
There's a difference between having some
black friends that you see at work, and
maybe at church, or at school, and having
intentional living relationships.
Yeah.
And that's what we're lacking. And
again, the relationships, I don't think,
they don't solve the entire problem, there
has to be a change of heart, and
repentance. That's what solves it. But, it
has to be intentional with people at
church, with people at work, with meeting
outside of those settings, with going on
double dates or date night, with going to,
you know, the kids' parties with Sally and
Susie and whoever. You know, getting
together with those people. And that's
when...that's when the partitions are
broken down and you see people as human
and you see people for who they really
are. So, yeah, you know, over my life I've
had quite a few relationships with some
people, and there's a couple guys in
particular that I'm able to just talk
with, you know? I talk about a guy named
Chris in the book, and he's--
Yeah, that's where that phrase "living
room racist, " yeah, talk about that.
Yeah, well he's a bit older than me. We
met within the last couple years. But we
just struck up a friendship and were able
to talk about these things, especially
when Ferguson happened, for some reason we
were able to just be honest with each
other. I think it's because we didn't have
this long history together, and it's like,
"Look, how do you feel about this?" You
know, why are you upset that you feel like
Affirmative Action is doing your child
wrong, or you feel like, you know, the
welfare system is taking away, and you're
paying into it. I talk about these things
in the book, but the amazing thing is that
we're able to be friends, we're able to
get some of these questions answered and
we're able to get it off our chest. Part
of the issue is that we don't want to say
certain things because we feel like
somebody's going to jump down our throat.
Yes. So there's a phrase that you
use, "living room racist," and I want to
read this from your book, and I want you
to respond to it. "'I don't need to talk
like that,’ Chris told me. ‘And I
haven't, since. Not like that. But
Benjamin, I really do see things
differently from you. I get angry at what
governmental policies are doing to white
people, like me, who are trying to make
ends meet.'"
That's an honest place for Chris to be
in. That's an honest statement for him to
make. And the beauty of it is he's able to
make that statement to me, and me not jump
way down his throat, and maybe a little
bit, but not too far down when he says it.
Because a lot of these statements--
Honestly, when he said that...
Did I punch him in the face?
Did you want to? What did you feel? Help
me understand what that feels like when
white people go, "Affirmative Action!"
That's basically what he's saying.
The first thing I felt was, you don't
understand Affirmative Action, number one.
You know, you don't understand that white
women benefit the most, and it's not
always about race. And that some of the
facts that we see on TV or in the
newspaper aren't necessarily true. You
know, you can make these facts say
whatever they want to, to get a certain
bias, to whatever you want it to be. And
so, my first reaction isn't necessarily
anger...
You go to research.
Yeah, I go to research because I want to
have the answer. But it is a sort of defense.
Because automatically I feel like
you're saying...what I'm hearing is,
"Black people don't deserve any help
because they're probably lazy anyway, and,
you know, that they're taking our country
away." And I'm hearing all these other
things that he's probably not even saying,
but my mind will start going down that road.
So how did you, when he said that, how
did you quell that, how did you push that
down and then have--because you said that
was an honest answer...
It's about the relationship.
Okay.
It's about the relationship. He's not a
stranger to me. If he's a stranger, you
know, saying these things, then... I may
go down that road and be a little bit more
defensive, but I know his heart. I
understand the fact that he's actually
saying this, that he's speaking from an
honest place and he's trying to get a true
answer from me.
Can you understand...let me just ask
you, can you understand from a white
person's perspective, how they would view,
like Affirmative Action, for instance.
Like, their kid doesn't get to go to this
school because of that. Like, can you
enter into--
I can understand it as a father, I can
understand it if they solely believe that
it's because the black kid didn't have as
good of grades as their kid and got in,
I'd be upset too.
But that's not the truth.
That's not always the truth. There are a
lot of other factors that go into it. And,
it might just be possible that the black
kid had better grades than your white kid.
I was the black kid that had better grades
than a lot of white kids, and they looked
at me crazy, until I had to tell them
about my SAT score. That's another story.
But, you know... I can definitely
understand where he's coming from,
especially when you have a child and you
feel like that child deserves it and the
child has great grades, and then you hear
through the grapevine that they've got
this new program to give minorities a
chance. And you're saying hold on, you
know, my kid deserves it.
Right.
I definitely feel that. And then on the
other side, I can see where the minority
parent is saying, "You had a 400 year head
start. We should get a little bit of a
chance to catch up." You know, so, you see
both sides of it, but the great thing
about my relationship with Chris and other
people is that, you know, he's able to say
that to me and I'm able to bring up some
other possibilities. You know, and his
response, you know, "I hadn't thought
about it that way, you know, maybe it's
not just, you know, my kid is being
rejected simply for being white."
Yeah. So, obviously, we want to move
forward. How do we think about making a
difference? Like, you can make a point, or
you can make a difference, and I know you
want to make a difference, that's why you
wrote this book. And, we can talk about,
you know, doing a big group hug, you
know...
Kumbaya.
Let's make sure we got a black guy over
here, and an Asian guy over here, and
let's...but we know there's a lot more to
that. That the heart has to be transformed
by the gospel. What would you say the
fruit would be for a white guy, to know
that his heart is being transformed with
regard to race? What would he do
differently? What would he think
differently, how would he choose to orient
himself relationally? Speak...speak to a
white guy here.
It's about our reactions to issues like
Ferguson. It's about how we project our
ideas about who was right and who was
wrong before the facts come out. It's
about our assumptions that we have simply
because of our experiences, because when
your heart is changed, you are able to see
things for what they really are. You're
able to have patience, you're able to not
assume about certain people, you're able
to give people the benefit of the doubt
until something happens. And the way you
react is not pointing the finger, it is
understanding that I have some of these
issues in my heart as well. You know, it
is understanding that without the blood of
Christ, I'm not forgiven either. And so
when you see things from that way you
understand you're not better than anybody
simply because of the color of your skin.
You know, you're not. You know, you need
Him as much as the next person does and
when you understand that forgiveness, it
gives you the ability to give other people
a little bit more grace.
Now, at the same time, it's not, it's not this crazy
utopia where if somebody wrongs you, you
go and keep allowing them to wrong you,
it's not that. But what it is, is seeing
people the way Christ would see them. You
know, and the reason why, when I wrote
that post, I went through the whole thing,
and then I hesitated for a minute when I
talked about the gospel being the answer.
Because I'm an athlete and, you know,
sometimes it's cool to put the Christian
thing, but not too much, you don't want to
be overtly, you don't want to offend
anybody. And then I said, "You know what,
that's the only way that we get through
this thing." Because in our own power, we
can't. We've tried it, we've tried to
legislate, which is all, which is great,
and we should do those things, you know,
we have equal rights, you know to vote and
things like that. Those are all things
that needed to happen. We talked about
relationships and those are very important.
We talk about education,
learning about each other, learning about
our past. But in the end, when I open my
eyes and I see you, I still see somebody
that's different. And there's still a lot
of history behind that. In order for me to
look at you and give you the same chance I
give everybody else, and see you as Christ
sees you, then I need my heart changed.
And that happens through the gospel.
You talk about pride in the book, and I
was reminded of James 4:1, where James
says, you know, "What is the cause of
quarrels and conflicts?" And the word
quarrel is just like, hey we've got a
beef, and the word conflicts is about
world wars, right.
Yeah.
He says what are the cause of that,
personal beefs and wars. "Is it not your
desires that wage war inside you?" So that
we have to own our own depravity. And that
kind of levels the ground, right, and then
we can look at everybody not with a
superiority complex or an inferiority
complex, because the gospel basically
says, not only are you not better than
anybody, you're not worse than anybody, right?
Yes, yes. And that's key too, that's key
too because racism in and of itself is
simply a faulty view of yourself. It's
faulty obviously on a spiritual level.
It's faulty on a physical level, because
physically, geneticists will tell you
there is a .001 difference between you and
I, and actually I can be closer to you,
than somebody who looks like me
genetically. And so, when you look at
racism that way you understand that, you
know, I'm not inferior. That's key because
a lot of black folks have an inferiority
complex that's been passed down. We
automatically... I've talked to my father
about it and he tells me about, you know,
when he was growing up in the '60s, how
automatically, you know, the white car
salesman, or the white, you know, lawyer.
You went to him before you went to the black one.
And what that told him, and
obviously what's been passed down to my
generation, is that the white one is
better than the black one. You may not say
it that way, but that's the inferiority
complex that's been built in because of
the years and years of systemic racism.
You mentioned pride earlier, and one of
the evidences of a changed heart is being
able to hear another's experience that may
not be your own, and not dismiss it as
false simply because you don't know it to
be true for yourself. And that goes on
both sides. That goes for you growing up
in a rural place and for me growing up,
you know, in more of a city. And you
hearing how I feel about something like
Ferguson, or for me hearing how Chris
feels about, you know, the Affirmative
Action, and not dismissing it as false
simply because that's how I feel. But when
you have a changed heart you're able to
extend the grace, and hear, and listen,
and you may learn something from the other
person. Instead of immediately turning
around and saying that, "You're not right,
that's not true."
Yeah. And isn't that what we teach our
children? Don't we want them to interact
with ideas and people and not immediately
judge it? And I thought, honestly, like,
the book is awesome. I would encourage
people to buy the book for one story, for
one letter that you wrote to your
daughter. And, why don’t you take us through
the themes of what you said to her?
I wrote a letter to my daughter, who was
unborn at the time when I was writing the
book. She is two and a half months old
now. And just explaining...in writing this
book, so many feelings came out, you know,
from talking to my parents about -- and my
grandparents about their experiences, and
you kind of get this whole picture
and...just telling her what she's about to
come into. You know, as a child. As a
baby. What is she about to come into?
She's coming into a world that is fallen,
that is sinful, where there is pride,
where there is prejudice, where people
won't like her because of how she looks,
where people that look like her won't like
her because she's educated, which is
crazy. Where people may call her names,
where the ceiling, as Pop-Pop said, may be
glass, and she may not be able to
accomplish certain things because of who
she is. But I told her that, in this
letter I told her that, no matter what
people say about you, you are a daughter
of God. And that I, as your father, know
that you come from a long line of people
who have accomplished great things. And I
expect the same for you. And it doesn't
matter what people, black, white or in
between say about you, you can accomplish
everything you want to accomplish because
of what God has put in you, and the
talents that you have. And that above all
else, the thing that I care about, the
thing that you should care about, is how
He sees you. "How does God see me?"
And that's a father speaking over his
child, which is what the gospel is,
right...
It is.
The father says I'm loving you not based
on your performance...
Your merit. Not on your merit, because
we can't earn it.
That's right.
The grace is the unmerited favor. You
know, she has grace with me, you know,
unmerited favor. And that's what we have
with our Lord and Savior, unmerited favor.
So, a lot of times we talk about our
children, and I actually had a teammate
call me. This was after...after the
shooting in Charleston. A former teammate
of mine, he played in the league, he
actually played here in St. Louis for a
while. He called me and, almost in tears,
because it's like what do I tell my kid?
You know, he was sitting in church and
somebody gets shot, what do I tell my kid?
He said his son came to him crying because
his son didn't want to go to church. And
it's not necessarily a black-white issue,
but this is the world we're living in,
where crazy stuff happens. It's like, what
do I tell my kid? And so as we sit with
this race thing, we feel the same way.
What do we tell our kids? How do we teach our kids?
And for us in our house, you
know, again it's about the relationships,
but it's about telling, teaching our kids
to see people as God sees them. And what I
mean by that is, it's not necessarily see
them as their race or their color, but to
see them as people who need forgiveness,
the same way I need forgiveness. People
need the blood of Christ the same way I
need the blood of Christ. And when you
look at people that way, it's amazing how
different you look at people. You don't
look at yourself as better than anybody
because you know that you are condemned
the same way that they are, outside of the
blood of Christ. And it's amazing that
this -- it's amazing, the perspective that
changes when you see yourself in the
correct light.
And that is, like... I mean, we have so
many resources of the gospel. Not just the
idea of atonement, which is kind of what
you're describing, that Jesus, in our
place, died for our sins. Jesus lived
perfectly so that we don't have to.
Yes.
That we can have the smile of the father
because of what he did. Not just his work
on the cross, though, but even on his work
coming to this earth in the incarnation.
He came and moved into our hood. He came
and inhabited our world, and so now we
have the ability, right, to imitate Him,
as we go and live places that are diverse,
we have friendships that are diverse. We
look at people who are not like us and we
believe the best so that we can wade
through all the other stuff.
It's about, and it's about demonstrating
that for them. We can't expect our kids to
do anything outside of what we do. If I
sit here, we talked about it with Chris,
you know, in the book. We talked about the
fact...he said something and his daughter
heard him say it, and said, "Daddy, what
are you...that sounded really racist." Our
kids are picking up on everything that we
do and say. They're picking up on the
little look that you give when the thing
comes on TV, on CNN, and there's folks
protesting, or whatever it is, black and
white they see how we respond. They watch it.
You know, it's a tremendous teaching
opportunity when these things come on, to
look and see your kids looking at you, and
they're going to pick up exactly what you do.
They're going to form hypotheses--
No matter what we say.
No matter what we say. Positive or
negative, they're going to pick up on how
you talk about people who are black and
how you talk about people who are white.
Because black folks, we talk about y'all
all the time. We do. And a lot of times we
have to repent in front of our kids. My
wife and I have had to tell our kids, you
know, "We shouldn't say...shouldn't say
that about Darrin." You know.
That wasn't right. But also when you talk about
repentance, you know, earlier we talked
about repentance, and it's about being
authentic and being real before our kids.
And letting our kids know, you know, daddy
and mommy, we don't have it all together.
We have some attitudes against some
people, because of what other people that
look like them have done. And that's not
right for us to do. And they see that, and
they understand that, you know, mommy and daddy aren't perfect, but you know,  we're leading
them in the right place. We're allowing
them, we're teaching them that repentance
is the key to changing our heart.
Yeah. So, what is this costing you? But
I'm wondering, you know, I mean that post
went viral, this book is going to sell
like crazy. What is that going to cost you
professionally, and even personally, to
kind of put your thoughts on paper for the
whole world to see? Like, what is that
going to cost you, or what is that costing you?
I don't know. We'll see. Once people
read. But I can tell you that the feedback
from the post has been positive and
negative. You know, but the gospel costs.
Truth costs. Not even about the gospel,
let's separate that and just let's talk
about this race issue, and if we're being
honest about it, it can cost us popularity
to speak out. It can cost us friendships
sometimes. You know, people want to hear
something that's nice, but a lot of times
this isn't pretty. But there's no growth
without truth. You know, when you go in
there or you work out, you break down
muscle and you get stronger. I think when
it comes to this racial issue, it's still
here, it's still very painful, and we need
to really be truthful and honest about it
and ugly about it before it gets any
better. But I believe that it can get better.
So, I don't know what it's going
to cost me, but whatever it is, I feel
like God has given me an opportunity. This
isn't something that I really wanted to
do, or envisioned myself doing, even
writing the Facebook post. Like I said, I
didn't even know how to post to Facebook.
But I feel like the opportunity has
presented itself and I just want to be
faithful, and speak truth. And it's not my
job to worry about what happens. That's
His job.
