Samantha: Hi everyone, and welcome to NCARB
Live!
I'm Samantha Miller, and I have three very
special guests today.
We have Robert Holzbach of Hickok Cole Architects,
Tyler Ashworth of VOA, and NCARB's Outreach
Manager Kimberly Tuttle.
Today we'll be sharing tips about a profession
in architecture.
Specifically, how to prepare for an interview,
how to negotiate your salary, and how to make
the most of your internship.
At the end we'll have time to answer your
questions.
So if you have any, feel free to submit them
during the webinar using the Q&A tool on your
screen.
So to kick things off, could each of you tell
us a bit about yourselves and what you do
every day?
Rob?
Rob: My name's Rob Holzbach.
I'm with Hickok Cole Architects.
I've been practicing for about 20 years now
and my primary responsibility�aside from
project work, which I have a full load of�is
to do all the hiring and staffing management
for my firm, which I've been doing for eight
years now.
I work on commercial office buildings, multifamily
residential projects, and I've done commercial
interiors in the past.
The point in saying that, the fact that I'm
doing both hiring and projects, is that I'm
really busy.
And a lot of the other people that you're
going to be interviewing with and sending
resumes to are equally as busy, and that's
going to play into a lot of what we talk about
later on.
Samantha: Okay, thanks.
Tyler?
Tyler: My name's Tyler Ashworth.
(I�m) Currently working as an architect
in DC, just recently licensed.
(I) Have about five years experience now with
VOA Associates, which is a design-based international
firm with nine offices total.
We specialize in workplace interiors, healthcare,
and proton therapy, as well as commercial
repositioning.
I also have quite a bit of a volunteer background,
which I think is what really brings me here
today.
(I) Previously served as the AIAS national
president, which is what brought me to DC
in the first place, and have been pretty well
involved with all the other collateral organizations.
Samantha: Thanks.
Kim?
Kimberly: My name's Kimberly Tuttle.
I have about eight to 10 years of experience
in high-end residential, mostly in Maine where
I actually joined the AIA Board of Directors
for a couple of years.
[They] introduced me to the IDP coordinators
role, which you guys know now as the Architect
Licensing Advisors.
Which actually led to my position here at
NCARB as the Outreach Manager.
I travel around the country talking to students
to educate them on the path to licensure,
but also hoping that maybe my experiences
will help them out when talking with them.
Samantha: Thanks, and thank you all for joining
us today.
I thought we'd start at the beginning.
What are some good places to look for architecture
internships and jobs?
Tyler?
Tyler: Yeah, the first place I always go,
my go-to tool, is the AIA Career Center, the
national career center, I should say.
AIAS also has their own career center online.
Then the other tool I use is just my own personal
network, so putting out my feelers to colleagues
I know or people that I've served with on
different organizations to see if they have
friends or colleagues that are looking to
hire.
Kimberly: Yeah, the AIA website tends to be
really good for job openings.
I got on the mailing list, so even though
I wasn't looking for a job, I was using it
to help others.
If I knew of someone who's looking, I would
send something their way or just keep up with
what's going on.
Really, networking.
I got my first job due to an alumni and that
same alumni brought me into my second job,
which then led me into the AIA which then
led me into meeting NCARB and networking and
finally here.
Networking is really going to be your strongest
resource in this profession because it's a
small profession.
We all talk, we all get to know each other,
and I think Rob will cover that a little later,
too.
Rob: Actually I can cover it right now, in
fact.
The first thing that we do when we're looking
to hire is (ask) how do we find good people?
We ask people we know already for references.
I'll send an email to my office saying, "Hey,
do you know anybody you'd like to work with?"
Some people that are not happy where they
are, let's see if we can get them in here
for an interview.
That's the first thing we do.
Next thing we do is we advertise on websites,
in the AIA DC, as well as national websites
we'll advertise on.
We also go to the architecture blogs like
Architizer, Archinect, we'll post there and
even in Indeed.com, we'll post on those websites.
Samantha: Awesome.
Rob, as the director of staff operations,
what are some of the qualities that your firm
looks for in a potential candidate?
Rob: I think it's going to vary depending
on the firm that's looking.
For us, we're definitely looking for design
talent.
We're looking for technical capability and
collaborative skills.
What we mean by that is somebody who's willing
to give and take ideas and willing to have
their ideas not accepted as long as there's
a discussion about it.
Lastly, we're looking for a cultural fit,
somebody that will be a good part of our firm.
And that's just as important as everything
else, but the biggest thing, and I think this
goes for any firm, is you're looking for people
who can become critically engaged in their
tasks.
Somebody who's thinking about why they're
doing something as much as how to do the task
because then they can add value to the project
beyond just what's expected of them.
And it's those people who become critically
engaged in their work that end up being the
most successful in their careers and that's
what we really look for.
Tyler: Yeah, and Rob said something I wanted
to highlight or rearticulate is that I hear
from a lot of recent graduates or students
that are still in school asking the same advice.
What can they do to prepare for that interview?
What skills can set them apart?
Really what I tell them is it's just as much
personality as it is skills, so going into
that interview and selling yourself as a person.
I got my first internship in school as a second-year
student with really no technical skills under
my belt, but it was really just based on my
personality.
I went in as a confident, happy person and
they saw someone they wanted to work with.
Someone that would learn the skills, but someone
that they knew they could work with and trust.
Kimberly: Yeah, I think that's really important.
I've been on both sides of that where I haven't
had a really fantastic, positive experience
because I didn't have the self confidence.
But when I worked more and gained more experience,
my confidence level grew a lot and that definitely
made a difference when I was interviewing.
You really have to be at the point where when
you're walking out of an interview, you have
to be okay that maybe that's not the job for
you.
Maybe that's not the firm for you, and that
has to be okay.
You have to be all right to just walk away.
I think that's the biggest thing.
Put yourself out there.
Rob: Can I add to that the notion that you're
going to walk away but not forget about them,
because once you've interviewed with them,
they know who you are and they might actually
want you to be one of their employees, so
now they're part of your network.
You might not want them now, but in two years
they might be the perfect fit for you.
So once you have that interview, maintain
those contacts.
It all goes back to the network and that they're
now part of your network.
Kimberly: And always send a thank you note.
Rob: Yeah.
Samantha: Rob, let's say there's an open position.
How many resumes might you sift through?
Rob: We'll get hundreds of resumes for a position,
and we have multiple positions open, so multiply
that.
It becomes a challenge, so what happens is,
and you've probably heard this before but
it's true, you literally have 30 seconds for
your resume to get you the interview.
And the best thing that you can do with your
resume is send in a series of work samples
or teaser pages that allow us to get a good
gauge of what project types you've worked
on and the skills that you have to have to
offer.
Samantha: What makes these work samples stand
out?
Rob: It's basically eye candy.
You have to look at it like that.
It's something that's going to attract our
attention and say, "Yeah, wow, this is great.
We want this person."
It's great renderings.
It's maybe some sketches.
Hand sketches are fantastic.
If you have a good conceptual sketch that
you can include, that's going to really stand
out as well.
Tyler: I think that it's important to add
that it's not the whole portfolio at that
point, right?
The portfolio is something that they might
ask for while you're filling out that application
or in that process of trying to get to the
interview.
Send in the work samples, leave the portfolio
for later.
Keep it limited.
Be careful about what you include.
Show your best work in those work samples
and try not to just send everything up front.
Kimberly: Yeah, and then it goes back to what
you end up bringing in too.
What does that end portfolio look like, and
we had talked earlier that it shouldn't be
digital.
Rob's seen a few instances.
Rob: I think the best way to approach the
interview and the portfolio is that this is
a way you're going to show off your work and
so it's a tool for you to tell stories with.
And if you come in with an iPad or a laptop,
it's very hard for many people to see it at
one time.
I think I even had a person come in with an
iPad mini, which is almost the smallest platform
you can imagine except an iPhone, which I
wouldn't be surprised if somebody tried to
do that, too.
I really recommend large printed sheets because
it's much easier for people to see, plus you
can avoid any potential technical difficulties.
Kimberly: I've gone in with an entire stack
of drawings from projects and then employers
can flip through and you can point out what
you've done and why you've done them, maybe
some things you've learned.
Rob: A half-sized set of CDs is a great thing
to bring along because you can flip it open
to a sheet and show the building sections
that you worked on, some of the details.
That's fantastic, and you were talking about
it doesn't have to be such a high-end design.
Tyler: To me, my portfolio wasn't even the
most used tool at my last interview.
It was that half-size set that I brought in
and that was the story that I was walking
them through and showing them what I had worked
on in that project, what I had learned.
The portfolio was this quick eye candy that
got passed around, and I had a couple different
copies of them.
What I always tell students or recent graduates,
(is) don't get so caught up in that graphic
design.
Every line doesn't have to be measured and
perfect in the portfolio.
Your work should show and be quality work,
but you don't need to spend those hours and
days and weeks and months agonizing over what's
this perfect portfolio.
It's just like a resume, they're going to
flip through it pretty dang quick.
Rob: Simple, clean, easy to read.
For resume and portfolio, that's the mantra.
Don't overdo it because it's all about you
and the way you use it to tell stories.
I know we're diving into portfolios right
now, but the best way for you to get across
the skills you have to offer is to tell stories
during the interview process.
There's a great example of a woman who had
an Army barrack in her portfolio, and she
flipped the page and she said, "I have an
Army barrack here.
It's not that interesting, except here's why
it's interesting to you," and the she went
on and told me a story about how during the
construction of these Army barracks she faced
all these challenges because she didn't do
the CDs.
What I learned from her was her ability to
overcome these obstacles and work with the
contractor and forge these alliances to get
the project done.
So even though her portfolio had Army barracks,
I realized at that point in time that's a
person I want to hire.
Samantha: That's great.
Let's step back a bit.
Before you get to the interview, what are
some things that you can do to prepare for
the big day?
Tyler: I think researching the firm.
Certainly every interview I walk into or every
application I send out, I even start before
the interview, I'm going through every page
on their website and figuring out who the
principals in charge are, what their backgrounds
are, what market sectors that firm is working
in, and oftentimes I'll even take a step back
and maybe rearrange my resume based on those
market sectors.
If I'm getting ready to send in an application
for a firm that does all housing, I don't
want to show them that I've worked on only
libraries or some other project type, so I'm
going to maybe reorganize my resume and my
cover letter a little bit.
Taking those steps to come in and be ready
to talk about the firm during the interview,
you have to do your research and know ahead
of time who you're going to talk to and knowing
you want to work there as well, and that's
going to show them you want to work there.
Rob: It is totally appropriate to send an
email to ask who you're going to interview
with.
Tyler: Exactly, because another thing I've
done as well is finding out more about those
people, looking them up on LinkedIn or elsewhere
on the Internet, and then you can find out
maybe that the principal at that firm went
to the same school you did, so you already
have something in common.
That makes you that much more memorable during
the interview when you can say, "Oh, you went
to here as well."
Kimberly: For me, my experiences have always
been very small firms, probably 12 people
max.
But for me going into some of my job interviews,
yes, be prepared, giving yourself that self
confidence and getting psyched for that interview,
but also learning maybe what they could use
help in.
Knowing that, "Oh, I've got some Photoshop
skills.
You guys are doing marketing.
Maybe I can help you out with your marketing,"
and figure out ways that you can be an asset
and sell yourself to that firm in different
ways than just your architecture skills.
Robert: That's great.
Samantha: You had mentioned that you worked
at a small firm previously, so are there differences
in preparing for an interview at a small firm
versus a larger firm?
Kimberly: I'm not sure that there are too
many differences.
An interview is an interview, and I think
they're pretty common throughout the profession.
But that is really one thing that I did look
at.
I knew that they were trying to launch a new
website and I knew, "Oh, I know a little bit
of WordPress.
Let me see if I can help you with this" or
"I see you're trying to get into marketing"
or I heard what they were trying to do.
I don't know, maybe a restaurant and so I
flipped to that page and I said, "Hey look,
I have a little bit of experience.
I was just still a year out of school when
I did this, but I understand this.
This is how I can help you," and those are
ways that you can interact with them.
Rob: It all goes to research and being prepared
for the interview, so it doesn't necessarily
matter if it's a big or small firm.
It's just who are they and how can you help
them.
Tyler: Yeah, the interview's going to stay
the same, but the difference between the size
of the firm might inform some of the questions
you ask during the interview or how you prepare
for it.
Samantha: Another important takeaway is that
you are interviewing the firm as much as they're
interviewing you.
Rob: It's true.
Can I speak to that?
As the person who's doing the interviews,
I like it when people come and they are asking
me questions about my firm because it shows
that they're engaged.
They want to be part of what we're doing.
They want to learn about us and that they
value themselves enough to try and make sure
that we're a good fit for them, because we're
certainly trying to make sure they're a good
fit for us, so I think that's fantastic.
Tyler: I've been in situations where I've
needed a job and then I've been in situations
where I could take it or leave it, and that
is probably the best situation you can ever
be in because you go in there knowing if this
doesn't work out, it's fine.
I love my job as it is and if this works out,
fantastic.
I know that's a hard spot to be in, but it
is the most wonderful spot when you're interviewing
for a job.
Either way it comes out would be the best
of both worlds.
Samantha: We had spoken earlier a bit about
going in there, I think Tyler you spoke to
this, and having the confidence to sell yourself
and your skills and what you can do for that
firm.
Let's say you're not in a position where you
can take it or leave it.
How can you leave that behind?
That, "Okay, if I don't get this job, I'm
not going to be able to pay rent this month."
What are some tips to help exude that confidence
and really show that you are the perfect candidate
for this position?
Tyler: Hopefully it's not a matter of rent.
That would be unfortunate.
I think with any interview, anytime you're
going after a job or you're trying to be successful
at something like this, it's a little bit
of a mental game.
You have to psyche yourself out beforehand
and see the goal at the end.
It's like sports.
You see yourself hitting the ball with the
bat and then it happens.
When you prepare for that interview, you have
to, like you said, set that stuff aside, convince
yourself that you're the one for it, and get
your positivity up, your confidence up, and
really just go in there ready to show your
best self.
I think the biggest mistake I made in an interview
once, and I found this out after that firm
called my reference, and his feedback to me
was, "We really liked Tyler as a candidate,
but we didn't see any of his sense of wanting
to change the world or all this volunteerism
that he does."
Because that was what my reference had to
say about me and they said, "We didn't get
that.
All we got was his interest in production
and these things."
After hearing that, I realized I never really
told them who I was.
I jumped right into the architecture stuff.
It's important, like we were talking about
earlier, to take that minute when they say,
"Tell us a little bit about yourself."
That's your spotlight.
That's your chance to be onstage, to be excited,
smile, be who you are, and show that personality
and hopefully, like we were saying, it's the
personality that they're going after.
Kimberly: Part of being prepared is really
knowing what your strengths and weaknesses
are.
For me, one of my interviews I definitely
had a lack of self-confidence, I really did.
I didn't realize that until they called my
references and they expressed that.
I was like, wow, I didn't realize that was
coming across, so for future interviews I
definitely made sure I had that in check.
My confidence grew as everyone's will when
they start working and they get used to what
they're doing and get more involved.
But knowing that, I was much more aware of
that in future interviews because you don't
want to put that out there.
You just want to make sure you know what you're
putting out there when you are interviewing.
Rob: Something that helps you to gain confidence
is the notion of hopefully, before you actually
start looking for a job, is you really sit
down and think about who you are and what
you want.
What's my skill set, what do I have to offer,
and what do I want out of my career?
Then you can target the firms that you're
looking for.
You can craft your resume for that, and you
can also craft your portfolio so that your
portfolio is a tool to help you express those
things.
If you're talking about yourself, about your
personal goals, your aspirations, and what
you can offer, then you're coming from a point
of confidence because you're just talking
about yourself.
You're not necessarily coming in saying, "God
I need this job so badly."
You can just say, "This is who I am, this
is what I have to offer you," and it comes
from the heart.
It comes across to the employer so much more
than the sense of like, "Oh my gosh, I really
need this job.
Please hire me."
Also, I would note that the portfolio really
just sits on the table as a tool for you to
use.
It's mostly about conversation because we're
not hiring a set of skills.
We're not just hiring somebody who can do
Revit, somebody who can design and do Photoshop.
What we're looking for is the person.
We're interviewing the person, not the skill
sets.
If you understand who you are and what you
want, you can get that across more clearly
and it really is effective in the interview.
Tyler: I think the important thing about the
notion of who you are and what you want and
prepping yourself ahead of time is it helps
you answer those questions that you're unprepared
for.
The question you don't have that answer for,
you can tie it back into yourself and your
own skill sets if you have that self-confidence
and you've prepped yourself for, again, how
you're selling yourself, who you are beforehand.
Rob: Exactly right.
Samantha: So I think we've all had that question,
"Tell me about your weaknesses."
How can you put a positive spin on that question
or a similar question, because it's bound
to happen to everyone?
Rob: I don't think it�s necessarily a great
interview question, but it does happen and
I've had to answer it myself, and I think
the thing you need to do is always stay positive.
You certainly don't want to give your deepest,
darkest secrets, but anything that you do
say should be in a positive light.
For instance, one of the answers I've given
in the past was that I'm really motivated
and I tend to take on a lot more responsibility
then I can often handle, so it took me a long
time before I could learn that I have to slow
down or find a way to delegate that responsibility.
I'm talking about a weakness, but I'm showing
it as a positive point in the profession or
it's a weakness or mistake that you made and
you tell the story of how you overcame that.
That's the best way to handle that sort of
question.
Tyler: I think another simple answer that
we were discussing earlier, especially for
someone out of school, (is) it's easy to say
you don't want to identify a weakness or maybe
you really just honestly don't feel you have
one, but an easy one is just your lack of
experience.
That's something that's very simple.
It's very honest and is just saying, "I'm
talented, I have these skill sets, but I don't
have the years under my belt.
I'm fresh into the architecture profession.
I'm going to build on that and experience
will grow with time."
Kimberly: That's really how you guys can use
IDP to your advantage because you can talk
about, "I've got a lot of CDs.
I have a lot of hours in CDs, but I feel like
I don't have enough experience with my design
development, DD.
I don't have a lot of hours in DDs, and I
feel like I could really use some work on
getting more experience and really raising
my awareness of how I work and things I need
to learn in that field."
That's really where you can take advantage
of using IDP as one of those questions that,
like Rob said, he loves it when you guys come
in with a list of questions.
Have that be on there.
Talk about your experiences and how you can
use those experiences to help the firm, but
then also to show them that you want to learn
and move forward with your career.
Rob: IDP's a great framework for that.
That's the intention.
Samantha: That's actually a great segue.
I wanted to talk about the kinds of questions
you can ask during an interview to ensure
that this firm is going to support your career
goals, support you getting those IDP hours,
support your path to licensure.
What kinds of questions can you ask during
the interview?
Kimberly: IDP and ARE, fantastic questions.
I usually tell students when I'm on the road,
like Rob said, having a list of questions
is key.
I've been one of them.
I've been in interviews and people are like,
"Do you have any questions for us?"
And I've been just blank, so writing them
down is really great and starting off with
IDP and ARE are really, really good because
it shows your employer that you want to develop
your career.
You want to become licensed and move down
that professional path.
Other things you can ask, even in regards
to the ARE, is what kind of help do you offer
taking the AREs?
Do you offer reimbursement?
Do you have study materials?
Do you have prep series?
I hear some firms have a lot of great resources
for interns going through the path, so that
right there is a great question to start off
and ask how the firm can help you in your
professional growth.
Tyler: Another important thing is knowing
the position that you're there interviewing
for and what that description looks like,
but also maybe looking ahead and knowing what
that next step might be down the road and
simply asking that question, "I know I'm coming
in for this.
What are the steps that I could take or that
you could help me with to get me to that next
level?"
Sometimes it may come off as eager or a little
too ambitious, but certainly just letting
someone know that you're interested in your
own professional growth and you don't just
want to be a drafts person forever.
Asking those questions, leading, looking for
the opportunists with your oral review to
go over that with your supervisors and figure
out what those next steps are to get you to
that next level.
Rob: Those are great, and in fact we want
people to be interested in their own career
development.
If somebody doesn't really worry about that
then it's probably not somebody we want to
hire.
But also it's something that we're looking
for�people who want to become part of our
firm and help build the future of our firm.
People who ask questions about where is our
firm going, where do we see ourselves in the
next three to five years are great too because
you're interviewing the firm as much as they're
interviewing you.
If you are trying to gauge where that firm
is going, it shows a lot of interest.
Also it's good for you to know are they heading
in the direction that I want to be in.
Samantha: That's great.
Let's say this is your first job and you don't
have much experience under your belt.
What can you do to get a leg up on other candidates?
Tyler?
Tyler: Sure, so I get the first job, you don't
have all that experience under your belt.
Getting the leg up on the other candidates,
for me, what has been at the top of my resume
always is my volunteer experience, my involvement
through the AIAS, now the NAAB Visiting Board.
That's where I find my energy in my profession.
It's how I recharge my batteries outside of
the office, and that also helps me to develop
a network.
Like we were talking about earlier, it's those
connections that might lead you to your next
job.
That's certainly one way.
Then you can use, again, your local AIA chapter
to go to different skill seminars or ARE classes.
I think being involved for me is the one way.
Kimberly: I just have to piggyback off of
that.
Networking, from my experience, that's how
I've gotten all of my jobs, so I cannot knock
that at all.
Extra curricular activities, you never know
who you're going to meet.
I was in a singing group and there was a seasoned,
really well-known architect in that group.
You get to network and you get to meet them
in different ways and you never know when
that next job opportunity's going to come
up.
You might be on the top of their minds when
they're thinking about you.
Tyler: I do want to add as well, credentialing
is an important thing.
Obviously probably a lot of the people watching
right now are working toward licensure with
IDP or ARE, but just as much as you've been
having that on your resume or having that
conversation, it's something you might think
is obvious, that everyone's working toward
that.
But I've talked to employers that they want
to hear that during the interview as opposed
to someone they might just assume is going
to go into that job and maybe licensure is
five years down the road for them.
Even if you don't have something done, saying
you're part of the way through or I've passed
two exams and I'm in the process, that shows
them a level of commitment that I think a
lot of employers want to see.
Kimberly: Can I add to that real quick?
Like I said with the singing group, you never
know what you might have in common with someone.
And like Rob said, they're not just hiring
for your skills, they're hiring people.
We all spend 40 hours a week.
We pretty much live with these people that
we work with, so you want to be able to get
along with them.
My last boss was a huge hockey fan so every
time he couldn't go to a game, I would get
his tickets.
We have that to talk about.
You just never know when you're going to be
able to connect with someone and have an opportunity
to engage with them.
Rob: That's great.
That's actually a really good point.
Samantha: Keep an open mind.
Tyler: Yeah.
Samantha: At what point in the interview process
is it appropriate to ask about salary?
This is a question that we've received several
times via email before the webinar so I want
to make sure that we got to that question.
So, Rob?
Rob: Never, never.
Not until they bring it up.
Let them lead the discussion.
Please don't come in and ask what the salary
is until they bring it up.
That's a door opening.
Still follow their lead, but again, you're
interviewing them so you do need information.
For instance, if the discussions occur, do
ask about whether they contribute to 401k,
do ask about their leave, healthcare plans,
but again, follow their lead.
Don't push too far in that especially in the
first interview, but later on if you have
a second interview or a salary negotiation,
absolutely it's open season then.
Tyler: You want to let them ask you first.
Certainly those things are going to be on
the table, but when they've asked you what
you need to make or what your salary range
is, then you know they're interested in you
and again like you said, that door's opened
up and you can start having those conversations.
Kimberly: I think there are some good resources
for gauging what that gap range is.
Rob: The AIA National has a compensation survey
that they do every two years, and obviously
as a firm, that's the only thing that we use
as our gauge aside from what we're able to
glean from other firms.
But we really don't have that much information
so it's really the AIA compensation survey
that we use.
Tyler: And that's an important tool for those
who can get access to it.
When you are trying to figure out what your
worth is, you can use that.
And it's broken down by region, by city, by
experience level, medium, high, and low, as
well as your position.
You can figure out, I'm a zero to three year
architect in terms of my experience in the
DC area and then you can go right to that
chart and see approximately this range of
what you might be worth, then that helps you
when they ask what's your range or what do
you need to make.
Then you're not asking outside of your range
or giving them some astronomical figure that
they're just going to dismiss you entirely.
Samantha: We've been on a very positive note.
I'm going to switch gears a bit.
What is the worst thing you can do during
an interview?
Rob?
Rob: The very worst thing?
There are so many bad things that you could
possibly do in an interview.
Tyler: No pressure.
Rob: Yeah, so there's no pressure at all on
you.
I thought about this a lot and I think the
worst thing you can do is be unprofessional,
and there are several things that fall under
that category.
One is not being dressed appropriately which
we discussed earlier, but it's not being on
time, your behavior, are you using foul language,
those kind of things come thorough and that's
a big mistake.
I think the biggest thing that's unprofessional
is being negative either about yourself, about
people you've worked with, or your previous
employer.
That is a big mistake.
You should always stay positive as much as
you can and spin even the negative into a
positive if you can.
Tyler: Yeah, and so speaking of spinning negatives
into positives, I would say the biggest mistake
you can make, again I'm thinking back to that
one interview where I didn't tell them who
I was.
I think it's missing that opportunity to make
an impression.
That everything you're there to do is to make
an impression, to leave them something to
remember you by.
Hopefully a week later or two weeks later
when they're coming ready to make that decision
or maybe even a year later when they have
a new job, you're still on their mind and
they say, "Oh, I remember Tyler.
He was the guy that was really about sustainability"
or whatever it might be.
You leave that impression and then it gives
them an opportunity to come back and hopefully
hire you.
Kimberly: I think really what Rob was saying
about coming across professional is that when
you end up eventually getting hired by that
firm, you want to come across in that interview
the way you would come across with a client.
They want to make sure that you can come across
with a client and really show what the firm
is about, because you are representing the
firm at that point, so if you put that first
foot forward then you're likely to follow
up.
Samantha: Now we have time to answer your
questions, so again if you have any, feel
free to submit them using the Q&A tool on
your screen.
Our first question comes from Tiffany.
"Do you have any interview tips for someone
who's coming back to the profession after
several years as a stay-at-home mom?"
It's a great question.
Tyler: That is a great question.
I have a friend actually that was coming back
into the profession not as a stay-at-home
mom, but after being laid off in the recession
previously.
And that was a big hang-up for her because
she then had this gap in her resume that was
filled with retail experience and other random
experiences that were fairly not architecture
related, a little bit far flung.
Really my advice to her was just go in on
the experience that she did have and simply
acknowledging that the gap was there for a
reason.
Here was what she was doing.
Again, it came back to confidence.
It was stepping back into an office for an
interview and saying, "Yeah, the recession
came along.
Things weren't going so great.
I stayed busy with these things, but now it's
architecture.
This is what I want to do again."
It might not be the ideal piece of advice,
but the only thing you have to build upon
is your experience.
If you did have experiences related to architecture,
certainly there's a way you can package those
and spin those in a light that might apply
to that new potential employer.
You might've been doing furniture design or
something for a case goods manufacturer.
That's something that's still relevant and
something worth talking about.
Kimberly: Yeah, just staying positive and
using whatever you can.
I wasn't laid off but I do have a whole bunch
of different work experiences.
I worked for supermarkets.
I've worked for film companies.
Using the customer service aspect of that
and knowing how to talk to people and have
relationships, so selling those points that
you can learn in different jobs, using those
and selling yourself on that.
Rob: I would assume that you're acknowledging
that your years of experience don't match
your years out of school, so I think that's
a big thing is to acknowledge that.
Let's say you worked for two years then you
became a stay-at-home mom, so you're basically
a two-year person to the employer.
Now the profession has moved on in terms of
technology.
Likely the firm is in Revit now and you might
not know Revit, so I think a big thing for
you to help with the interview and just with
your whole job search is to go out and to
actually take a class in Revit.
Understand what is the current technology,
what's the current knowledge base, and making
an effort on your own to learn those things.
If you can come into the interview saying
yes, I'm doing these things to get caught
up, that's going to go a long way.
Tyler: I do want to add to that, actually.
For someone that maybe is in that boat and
say hasn't had a successful interview, if
you feel comfortable doing so with that firm
that you're interviewing with, say you have
an unsuccessful interview, asking them to
figure out what would it take for you to be
hired by them, the reason they didn't hire
you, essentially.
It could be Revit, so then you find out, you
know what, I do need to go work on my Revit
skills, take a course or get a certificate.
It could be something else entirely, but it
never hurts to ask.
They might tell you, you know what, they just
don't feel comfortable telling you.
As with anything, it's their own personal
opinion.
It's the firm's opinion, so don't let that
crush you too if it's something that may be
negative just against you in general.
Samantha: That�s great advice.
Thanks, guys.
�What would you say should be the focus
for students who are coming out of school?�
I think this candidate is concerned about
the gap perhaps between some of the classes
she's taking and real-world experience.
Kimberly: I guess just trying to make your
portfolio as strong as possible and highlighting
your strengths in your portfolio when you're
creating that.
Highlighting the projects that you really
feel passionate about and can speak strongly
to�why you made some of the design decisions
you did and stuff like that.
Tyler: Yeah, it sounded again like gaps and
maybe technology gaps, so again this goes
back to Revit and some other things.
I found myself in that same boat.
They were similar when I got out of school.
It was right in that transition between CAD
and Revit so the courses we had in school
were all CAD.
I had zero Revit experience and now I was
finding myself interviewing in front of firms
that were looking for that experience, so
the best I could do without lying, was a little
bit fake it.
I had certainly touched the software before
and had been in Revit before but I haven't
done it in a production environment, so how
could I sell that and again sell myself as
someone that was hardworking, a quick learner?
I found a firm that was maybe willing to take
a chance on me as someone who didn't have
that full experience.
And I picked it up really quick, so I think
it's just a matter of, again, that kind of
confidence, selling yourself for what you
do know and what you do have, and then riding
on faith a little bit.
Rob: Yeah, I think it's important too to know
that the employers know that you don't have
a lot of skills in the profession yet because
you're fresh out of school.
You may have great graphics skills, you may
have great modeling skills, but you can't
put together a set of drawings and so we know
that and we acknowledge that.
I think the best thing to do is highlight
the strengths you do have and talk about your
goals and your eagerness to develop in the
future.
I think that's really the best thing that
you can do for yourself.
Kimberly: I think, just for a little plug,
on top of that we have the Emerging Professionals
Companion.
So if you know that a firm is really into
sustainability, you'll find the associated
Emerging Professionals Companion that goes
with that.
Read it, do the activity, take the initiative,
and then you can use that as a selling point
when you're in your interview.
Samantha: And earn IDP credit.
Karla would like to know if a thank you note
by email is okay?
Rob: Yes, it's fine.
A thank you note by hand is great, email is
perfectly appropriate.
This is my point of view.
Tyler: What I try to do actually, if it's
that same day and if I was in a job and going
to an interview in that situation where I
really don't need it which is ideal, try and
send a follow up email that same day.
Just a quick note and thank you, and then
follow up within a week with a thank you card.
Either or, both are great but certainly you
do want to at least provide that follow up
again so your name is fresh in their head.
Rob: Actually can I jump on to that?
Maintaining contact, too.
It's not just a thank you note or an email
and then wait to hear back from them.
If, for instance, during an interview you
discuss a particular architect that they like
or that you like or you see an article about
their firm, send a link to that article or
that architect's website to that person maybe
three weeks later and say, "Hey, I saw this.
This reminded me of the interview.
Hope you're doing well."
It's a great way to stay in contact without
saying, "Hey, are you going to offer me a
job?"
It's a really smart way to stay in contact.
Kimberly: You said something about that too,
about applying to firms and the reference
versus cold calling, and even if a firm's
not hiring, still send in your resume.
Robert: Oh, absolutely.
If you know who you are and know what you
want, you're going to target the firm you
want to work for.
You're going to send your resume to that firm
even if they're not hiring because chances
are they're still interviewing.
If you can get in that interview, as soon
as they know they need to hire, they're going
to go to that list of people they've already
interviewed and you've got a job offer before
they've even advertised.
Samantha: Apparently our panelists are architects
and psychics, because our next question comes
from Adam who wanted to know how effective
a cold call is for responding to a position
without any network connection.
Is there anything else you'd like to add?
Kimberly: I haven't had much luck cold calling.
Tyler: Again, if I'm understanding the question
correctly, it's a cold call regarding an ad.
The first thing I would tell anyone as advice,
make sure you're reading the ad fully.
I have seen some ads where they don't want
phone calls simply because, like you said
earlier, you get hundreds of resumes for a
position, possibly.
If a position description goes out, they might
now be getting 200 phone calls while they're
simultaneously trying to manage projects,
and short staffed because you haven't been
hired yet.
Make sure a call is welcome firsthand, but
yeah, then I think certainly if we're talking
about a shotgun approach here, there are positions
open, you might not have a reference there.
First try and find a reference.
LinkedIn again is a great tool for that.
You might find there's a friend of a friend,
someone who knows someone at that firm that
you can get some sort of an in, and that's
a name you can drop in your cover letter.
Otherwise, people still do get jobs without
references, so it doesn't hurt to put that
out there.
Do the research though.
Talk about that firm and their projects in
your cover letter and maybe tailor your resume
to that firm.
Rob: Definitely send the resume out.
I'm not so certain about calling, even if
the ad doesn't say don't call.
I prefer not to get phone calls.
I'm probably honestly not going to return
it and I probably won't take it, either.
It's nothing against everyone that's applying.
It's just I simply can't do it.
I don't have the time.
If you do decide to call and you get a voicemail,
make sure you know exactly what you're going
to say when that beep goes off because you
can ruin any chance you have by having a long,
rambling voicemail message.
Absolutely ruin your chances.
Samantha: Good to know.
Can a portfolio be a combination of digital
and print?
Rob: Yes.
I think as long as the digital portfolio is
something that's accessible.
If it's an iPad, make sure that you pass it
around, but I'd rather see the print version.
When I say digital, if by digital you mean
a portfolio that's on the Internet, that's
great but don't expect that the employers
are going to have a way for you to access
the Internet to show your portfolio online.
Tyler: I think the way I was reading that,
or hearing that question rather, what I do,
I'll send my cover letter, resume, work samples,
just a couple of sheets.
On top of all of those sheets, it's the very
same consistent my name and contact information,
but then I have my personal website and that
has my portfolio.
If I'm following up to a job by reference,
by email, or something like that, I might
send them all of that stuff and then I'll
say, "Oh by the way, here's a link to the
specific page on my website with the portfolio
or the project types that you do, so here's
my housing experience."
Everything they need is maybe attached to
that email or they've already received it
in print, but if they want to explore more,
they have that option to click the link, check
out my website.
At the actual physical interview, I'm still
going in with print material only.
I don't want to rely on technology.
Samantha: Do you all always bring copies of
your resume?
Tyler: Multiple copies.
Kimberly: You shouldn't assume that the recruiter
is going to have them printed out waiting
for you.
Rob: Absolutely.
Actually, in fact, I almost never come down
to the interview with the resume.
I leave it upstairs just to see if they bring
copies.
The other thing, and this is interesting,
is that you can't control what happens to
your resume when you send it out.
You email it out and then an administrative
assistant may print it to black and white
even though it's color and then make five
copies of that black and white copy, so you
have no control over what happens to your
resume after you send it.
If you come to the interview with the perfectly
printed color glossy pages and hand those
out, then you've actually established control
again, so definitely bring copies.
Kimberly: Actually, I had a question following
that.
Resumes then also references.
When do references come in?
Rob: Not until requested.
Kimberly: You always keep those tucked away.
Rob: Please, yes.
For your own benefit.
A lot of people have their references listed
on their resume, but then again that's information
that you're giving out there that you can't
control.
We may call the reference before we even contact
you, and then the references may not know
they're going to be called, so you want to
control that information.
Samantha: Our next question comes from Jason.
"How do you approach asking for a higher salary
than what was first presented to you?"
Rob: That's a salary negotiation.
It's okay to negotiate, that's the first thing.
It's okay, but it needs to be respectful and
professional.
I think that's the most important thing is
to understand that they want you now.
After you've gone through this whole process,
the employer wants you in their firm, so they're
not going to lose you over a couple thousand
dollars, probably, hopefully.
What you need to do is do your research and
you need to understand it's actually based
on the compensation survey, this is what a
person with my years of experience in this
position should be making, and then I bring
these additional skills to the table, therefore
I think I am worth this much money.
If you come forward with a logical, respectful
reason why you deserve more money, make it.
And I also recommend that you do it in person
if you can or on the phone.
Don't just send an email back trying to negotiate
by email.
That's a mistake.
That's too impersonal.
Tyler: I think you were starting to frame
it there at the end because we were having
this discussion during lunch.
I think that the most important part is not
just asking for it if you're going to negotiate
and you want a couple extra thousand or a
couple extra percent.
Not just throwing that out there but giving
them real specific examples or really reasons
why you're worth it and what you'll contribute
to the firm.
If they're going to give you this extra money
in hiring you, what else are you going to
bring to the table or what are you already
doing that you're going to do exceptionally
well, and then live up to that once you get
hired.
You don't want to get hired at this great
rate, this high salary, and then underperform.
That's not going to be good for you.
It's not going to be good for your reputation
and the firm's certainly not going to be happy.
Kimberly: The other thing is you should know
at that point what salary is going to be offered
and there may be added benefits that you didn't
realize, maybe you didn't have in the job
before.
I know when I moved from one job to another
it was only about a thousand-dollar increase,
but I didn't have to drive an hour to work.
I could save $50 a week in gas and I could
just walk to work, so there were a lot of
added benefits that (replaced) an increase
in salary because I wasn't spending that money
on the backend.
Talking about health insurance and all the
other added benefits could have an impact.
Rob: Actually that raises a good point, too.
Another thing to think about is it's not just
a salary.
Firms generally have a specific range in which
they're able to make an offer and if you're
at the top end of that range but you still
want more and deserve more, there's other
ways to do it.
For instance, maybe the firm could pay for
your parking.
Maybe the firm could give you Metro checks
or public transit vouchers.
These are things that have monetary value.
Even maybe additional leave days.
They have monetary value, but they can still
say you're being paid within this range so
it keeps it fair within the firm, too.
Samantha: Our next question comes from Reagan.
"As a soon-to-be college grad, who should
I have on my reference sheet and how often
are references actually checked?"
Tyler: Yeah, just like we talked about earlier,
leave them for request only.
I will answer who to have and especially as
a recent college grad, that's oftentimes difficult.
You might not have that professional colleague
to have on there.
Someone that you've worked under, a supervisor.
If you did have an internship in school, absolutely
one or two of those people.
As high up as you can get at your firm that
will still give you a good reference and know
your work well.
You don't want to put the firm principal on
there who's, a) not going to have the time
to pick up a phone to talk to that person,
and b) might not have had any clue what you
were doing at that firm.
Rob: Last thing you want them to say is, "Who?"
Tyler: And the obvious: no friends, no family
unless they're professional references.
But professors certainly don't hurt and they
can speak to your work skill and work ethic.
Kimberly: Yeah, I still to this day have a
professor on my reference sheet.
I'm speaking from my experience.
Since I didn't have a lot of work experience,
I put maybe a previous job that wasn't necessarily
architectural related but they could speak
to my work performance, that I showed up on
time, that I was reliable, all of those things.
Someone that can speak to that.
Rob: You have to do the best you can do if
you don't have professional work experience,
so I think those are all great ideas.
And yes, we check references.
We absolutely do because I'm doing it honestly
for my firm's benefit but for my own benefit
as well.
If for whatever reason an employee doesn't
work out and then my boss says, "Hey, did
you check the references?"
And I say, "No," that's really bad.
That's bad for me, but it also is bad for
the firm.
Samantha: Matt would like to know how to turn
down a job offer without insulting the firm
and ruining your connection with them.
Tyler: That's a good question.
I actually had an experience where I was fortunate
enough to have three different offers on the
table coming out of not having had any work,
still post recession.
That was tricky because I had gotten one of
those offers through a reference, but it wasn't
so much in the specific traditional architectural
realm, so it was easier to weigh that one
out.
I still had to be delicate in how to do it
because it was that close colleague and friend
that had gotten that connection for me to
begin with, so definitely a phone call.
Email, like we were just talking about earlier,
is sometimes a little too impersonal.
I think it's all in how you frame that conversation
and letting them know that you can't take
the offer.
More often than not it's going to be because
you hopefully have a better offer and I think
something as simple as, "I found something
that's just a better fit for me."
You don't have to go into all the details;
you don't have to spell out all the nitty-gritty.
Just, "Thank you so much for the offer.
Would've really loved to have worked here
and been part of the team, but found something
that was a better match."
Rob: I think also just say that, "Hey, I would
love to keep in touch with you.
I think your firm's great and this is a better
fit for me right now, but let's keep in touch."
And actually do keep in touch.
Kimberly: To follow up on what Tyler was saying,
you want to leave a job like that as well.
When you are deciding to move on to a different
firm, that's how you want to leave things.
You don't want to burn bridges.
You want to keep those networks and the connections
fresh because you never know.
Recession might happen again, you might need
to go back to that firm.
You never know.
Tyler: Or that person that you've worked for
at that previous firm now works at the new
firm that you want to get hired (at), and
so that person that you just burned a bridge
with is now interviewing you again.
Rob: That's true, and from my point of view,
anybody that doesn't take our offer, that's
somebody that they've already been vetted
from us.
We've already done all the work.
We know this is a person we want to work with
us so we're going to track that person over
the course of their career and maybe in two
years we'll give them a call to see how it's
working out.
You definitely want to keep in touch, and
anybody who's actually in charge of hiring
out there, I recommend that you keep in touch
with those people that have not accepted positions
assuming they did it in a professional manner.
I have had some people that, based on way
that they declined, they were off our hire
list for the future.
Samantha: What's the biggest peeve that you
see during an interview?
Tyler: I think that one's for you.
Rob: Biggest pet peeve.
That's hard to say.
I think that goes back to the mistakes and
just people that aren't professional because
I think when you come in and you act professionally,
that's showing respect for the employer.
I guess that probably would be my biggest
pet peeve.
Story, quick story.
A guy came in, he was a fantastic designer.
He was chewing gum, he had sunglasses on the
back of his head and he was wearing flip-flops
and jeans.
I immediately decided I wasn't going to hire
this person even though he was fantastic at
what he did, so I guess you could call that
a pet peeve just because it wasn't respectful.
Kimberly: Following up, dressing, figuring
out how to dress and what to wear on your
interview.
I would strongly suggest, as Tyler has said,
making sure you're being prepared and looking
through the website, check out what people
are wearing.
Maybe they have a very casual dress code.
Maybe it's business, maybe it's business casual.
Always figure out what their standard of dress
is and maybe take it up a notch.
That way you're definitely not underdressed
and you're showing how professional you are.
Tyler: I would say definitely take it up a
notch.
Our firm is certainly casual dress most of
the week or any given day, but if there are
client interviews, and that's us going out
and trying to get our firm jobs, those people
are all wearing suits or pantsuits for women,
dresses and skirts, whatever it might be.
Dress up when it matters.
Once you get the job, then you can wear your
jeans and whatever makes you comfortable.
Rob: I have one more, sorry.
Firm handshake.
Look the person in the eye and give them a
firm handshake.
That matters, it really does.
Samantha: We have, I think, two or three more
minutes before we're going to get cut off.
So before we sign off for the day, I was hoping
that each of you could briefly state one takeaway
from today's webinar, an important tip to
take home for all our emerging professionals
out there.
Rob: As I said before, knowing who you are
and knowing what you want.
If you're able to establish very confidently
these are the skills I have to offer and this
is what I'm looking for in my career, it's
going to benefit you in your resum� design,
your interview skills, and even negotiating
to make sure that you're getting what you
want out of your career.
Tyler: I think for me it really comes down
to just being positive and being confident.
When you walk in that interview, you have
to mentally set aside all those things of
the skill sets that you might not have that
you're worried about.
You have to go in ready to win that job.
It's that mental psyching yourself before
hand, but always be positive and be confident
and just display your best self during that
interview.
Kimberly: Definitely networking.
I'm really big about networking.
You never know where you're going to meet
that next person.
You could be sitting on an airplane talking
to somebody and then realize, "Oh, hey.
That's a potential job," so networking is
key.
Even as you move up through your career and
you move up through the firm, networking is
huge, in that because if you can put yourself
out there, that can help the firm in the long
run.
Rob: That's absolutely right.
Samantha: Great, well thank you all for joining
us, and thank you for joining us.
And be sure to check the blog next week because
we'll be posting a video recap of today's
webinar.
Thanks, we'll see you next time.
