all right good morning everybody
yesterday everybody was making you
repeat that with vigor and today we're
tired and I'm not going to do that so
welcome to to the morning of day two of
John Jay's smart on crime conference
this is a violence prevention panel so
my name is David Kennedy I am going to
moderate today I'm the director of the
national network for Safe Communities
here at John Jay which does applied
violence prevention work across the
country I'm really happy with my guests
today these are not just colleagues but
friends and got a lot of friends in the
audience too so welcome
so immediately on my left is Thomas apt
who has worked in federal and state
government around these issues including
here in New York City he is currently at
both the Kennedy School and the law
school at Harvard must be really smart
and is focusing on violence prevention
both domestically and internationally
and has done some of the most recent and
important systematic analysis on these
issues to his left is Chief Bob Tracy
who had an illustrious career in NYPD
here in New York City was the chief
crime strategist for the Chicago Police
Department at the time that Chicago was
doing its best in the modern era with
respect to serious violence and has
recently taken over the Wilmington
Police Department to his left is Devon
bogan who pioneered some of the most
interesting community based violence
prevention work as head of the office of
neighborhood safety in Richmond Virginia
and sorry in Richmond California the
other the other dangerous Richmond gap
I've been talking about the to
Richmond's for so long and has his own
very interesting new startup he is the
founder of advanced piece which is
designed to take that work to scale
nationally and on my far left for Zanna
ander who is the founding executive
director of the University of Chicago
Crime Lab which is devoted to paying
playing a research and organizational
role around evidence-based violence
prevention and crime practice in Chicago
so welcome let me set this up just a
little bit there is no greater need in
communities than that people be safe if
people aren't safe then nothing else
works and there are communities all
across the country where that is not
true so some of us were part of the the
panel yesterday that addressed the the
question of whether there is a a
trending increase in violent crime in
the United States the the UCR numbers
are very much in in the news and in
people's mind and if I can summarize the
the gist of that conversation it was
there may be a trend there may not be
but there are communities all over the
country there we have become accustomed
to very persistent very high levels of
community violence and that's not okay
so when I began this the the work that
I've been part of 30 years ago there was
nothing that worked predictably and
meaningfully to address this kind of
community violence the very first field
work that I ever did was in the
mid-1980s in Los Angeles and the crack
epidemic was was sweeping west from El
with its attendant violence and disorder
and at the time LAPD was the most
consciously technically sophisticated
Police Department in in the United
States and in its thinking about its
work
LAPD divided the world into what it
called repressible crime and what it
called non repressible crime and
repressible crime was in its its view
the the set of issues that a an
effective police department ought to be
able to address and it considered
repressible crime things like robbery
burglary theft of and from motor
vehicles that sort of thing which from
their point of view made sense those are
the sorts of things that one one can
imagine addressing by patrolling by
answering calls for service by by
undertaking retrospective investigations
it expressly did not consider homicide
irrepressible crime it considered
homicide a non repressible crime it took
no responsibility and did not think it
could be effective with people killing
other people and from its point of view
that that also made sense
homicide is of the moment it's often
inside and not outside it's
unpredictable
and even in Southern California most
murderers are not serial killers and so
locking up today's murderer doesn't do
very much about the next one so it and
the policing profession in general did
not think it could do anything about
these issues and unfortunately the
portfolio outside law enforcement was
similarly sparse that's not true anymore
and there are now things that we know
work there are things that we know we
can put in place and the ordinary people
showing up every day can make a
substantial difference some of those are
rooted in law enforcement some of those
are rooted in community action but it
isn't it is no long
or the case that there's nothing that
works and nothing that we can do and my
eyes are terrible is the Assistant US
Attorney from from Newburgh here can you
share with the room what you shared with
me about ten minutes ago
thank you hi Alexi mana the US
Attorney's Office southern dish in New
York were involved in the GBI initiative
in Newburgh and understand with David
that we've experienced a 50% decrease in
shootings amongst the group members in
September
excuse me January 1 through September
30th last year to this year so it's uh
it's really work and it's it's really
encouraging how much the folks there
have really bought into the initiative
and I think that plays a huge part from
the police department to the community
service providers it's really it's
really taken off and seems to have the
real staying power so this is this is
good news there there are things that we
can do that make a real difference so
that's that's the theme for the day
things that we know work how to get them
done how to make them better and how to
sustain them and you have done some of
the most recent scrutiny of all this and
what do we know
so let's just sort of begin begin with
the numbers and go from there last year
according to the FBI there were about 17
thousand homicides
that's about 47 a day about two an hour
so in the space of the time that we're
going to be talking to people are likely
to lose their lives violently as we all
know the victims of homicide in the
United States are disproportionately
people of color the number one victim of
violent crime in the United States is a
young black man according to the CDC the
leading cause of death for young black
men is homicide many of you may know
that but what you may not know is that
homicide accounts for more deaths than
the nine other leading causes combined
so murder has a devastating impact on
the least politically powerful among us
but we're all paying the price for
homicide and for violence we pay for it
in higher taxes insurance premiums lower
property values and lost economic
activity when you ask people what to do
about these chronically high rates of
violence you hear a lot of different
things but basically what you hear is
look elsewhere people will tell you look
at poverty look at employment look at
education look at guns look at culture
look at values basically everything but
look directly at the at the problem and
that's simply not what the science says
decades of research confirms what we
should all know as a matter of common
sense which is that the best way to
address violence is to account for it
directly go right at the problem here's
what we know
in any given American city about five
percent of the blocks in that city are
going to account for 50 say
Steve 70% of the homicides in that city
if you look at people less than 1% of
that city's population are going to
account again for 50 60 70 percent of
the homicides everything that we know
about violence reinforces the central
understanding that violence is sticky
that it concentrates in certain places
among certain people and around certain
types of behaviors in terms of places
violence doesn't concentrate in
neighborhoods we now know that it
concentrates in micro locations often
called hotspots so it doesn't focus in a
neighborhood it concentrates around a
certain liquor store a certain nightclub
a certain drug house in terms of people
we know that violence doesn't
concentrate among certain classes of
people young men of color in a certain
neighborhood it's far more concentrated
than that it concentrates among impact
offenders or shooters what distinguishes
a shooter this is something that I've
been looking at in my research what
distinguishes a young man who is poor
jobless poorly educated has unstable
housing but Laura but who is nonviolent
from the very few who are violent and I
would say the difference is previous
exposure to violence trauma violence
begets violence and that's what
distinguishes poverty from violent
poverty is previous exposure to violence
so the next time you think of East New
York or you think of Compton or you
think of Inglewood don't think of them
as a group of dangerous people or a
dangerous place recognize that those
people and places are mostly peaceful
but plagued by a few hot spots or a few
impact defenders so the science tells us
not surprisingly that if violence is
sticky then the strategies that target
target that stickiness are the ones that
work best we see this in police
we see this in reentry we see this in
prevention we see it in intervention
again and again and again the most
effective strategies are the specific
ones the targeted ones the ones that go
right at the problem engaging the
highest risk places and people this is
not my opinion this is not one study
this is not a dozen studies this is
hundreds of studies my colleague Chris
Winship and I did a matter of you
looking at systematic reviews that
encompassed over 1,400 studies and these
were our results and they're confirmed
by many other criminologists and
sociologists so this is what the
evidence and data is telling us so I
want to conclude by issuing a friendly
challenge to to all of us I suspect that
most of you in this room identify as
progressives and I want to challenge you
all as progressives to elevate the issue
of violent crime and of homicide among
the platform among the constellation of
issues let's not look at violent crime
as a speed bump or a distraction a way
that of a threat to our other reform
efforts such as reducing mass
incarceration let's realize that if we
really care about the people that we say
we care about if we're really concerned
with poor people of color this has to be
an important component of our overall
justice efforts Thanks
Chief Tracy you've been on the front
lines of this recently in Chicago which
is one of the places everybody thinks of
when they think about this issue now
you're setting up shop in Wilmington
which is not one of the places everybody
thinks about when they think about this
issue unless you know Wilmington in
which case it is where are you on this
and what have you learned and where are
you going well good morning everyone
and David thank you for inviting me to
this panel I've had the great fortune of
34 years ago starting in policing in the
NYPD and you know as we talk about
innovation and reducing violence I
worked in a police department from 1984
to 1994 where were very reactive and we
thought nothing could be done about the
crime and we go to calls for 911 calls
for service and then you know we just
try to arrest solve a case arrest
offenders and then just keep moving on
to the next case and in 1994 we had a
gentleman named Bill Bratton coming to
the NYPD came from a smaller Police
Department
what can this man tell a department of
40,000 members well he thought he told
us a lot and he taught us a lot he
showed us that if we apply business
management principles to police work and
if we can be proactive in reducing crime
and we can measure it and we can know
what's going on to try to prevent the
next crime from happening those are the
things that we did for many years and
community engagement innovation using
technology and I came up in that system
for 13 years after Bill Bratton came in
and I was very fortunate I was in the
private sector for a few years after I
left the NYPD and then I had the great
fortune of going to Chicago Garry
McCarthy was appointed as the
Superintendent of Police and he had
asked me would you come in and be my
right-hand person and we need to start
CompStat and we need to have business
management principles and we have a lot
of innovation that he didn't he saw in
the NYPD he saw our Newark New Jersey
and he says we need to apply this to
Chicago to see if we can have some
success reduce the violence community
engagement and makes Chicago safer
well that was a challenge for me but it
was great since now I was the one that
was running CompStat not the one that
was behind the podium answering CompStat
so there's a there's a big difference
but but what I found out there's a heck
of a lot more preparation when you're
trying to run a city and trying to
reduce crime and then try to put all
these strategies together David some of
the things that we did starting ComStat
from scratch business management
management principles applied the police
work we use technology we embrace the
technology we used the predictive
analytics link analysis social network
analysis dr. Andrew popper christos we
try his predictive analytics of the
people that Thomas Aptos talking about
where we talk about not only hot spots
we talk about how people and these
individuals are the one at the highest
propensity to commit crime so what do we
do with those people so we identify
those individuals and then we actually
turn to the national network of safe
communities and that's David Kennedy's
work and through focus deterrence custom
notifications we apply that as one of
the plans as far as an overall
comprehensive plan to look how we can
address these individuals that are at
most risk and at most risk to the
community first you don't give them
choices you give them options and those
options they can take them and if
they're not going to take them when I
can allow them to harm in the community
and it goes a long way a lot of these
other things and I'll get to some of the
numbers we look at reentry we looked at
community engagement we made sure that
our officers were working the same beats
every single time they worked so they
know the conditions the good kids from
the bad kids they knew the conditions
that we eliminated task force because
when you come in and you don't know the
community we were not about arresting
everyone we're arresting the individuals
we were surgical and targeted the most
violent individuals in the community and
that gained trust in the community cuz
they said you know who these people are
please can you go arrest them but if we
don't have the same cops in the same
community working every single day no we
don't know who the individuals are so
with the help of technology keeping the
offices in same area helped us gain
trust
elicit trust from the community and also
make sure that we're taking people out
of the community at doing the most
violence or getting the help that they
need and part of it working with David
we moved onto custom notifications for
the individuals that we couldn't bring
into group violence intervention or gang
callings as we call them in Chicago we
went to their residents and we gave them
the message of how at risk they are we
talk to their families we told them
about the moral voice of the community
we had people speaking to him the harm
they do into the community and we also
came with social services to help them
and that's a game changer in Chicago as
far as where the police just weren't out
arresting everyone we were looking to
give them helped first and actually give
them warnings what's to come if they
don't stop the violence but at the end
were actually want to help them and we
care about them in the community you
know we we also worked with a you know
working with academics you know we can't
do this alone
first we know we need to work with the
community but you're gonna hear from
Rosanna anda who's with the University
of Chicago Crime Lab Rosanna immediately
when I came to Chicago signed an MoU
with all our crime information and said
can you help us with this and help us
identify the way the risks are and where
we can improve as a police department
and where we can improve in the criminal
justice system Rosanna and it was key an
University
Chicago crime lab was key in helping us
get to where we needed to be we worked
with academics and university
illinois-chicago Dennis Rosenbaum we
worked with Northwestern dr. West skogen
we were we were willing to reach out and
get out of our comfort zones and to try
to do things because what we were doing
wasn't working and I'm happy to say a
lot of these things we put in place and
under Garry McCarthy's leadership before
the president convened his Task Force on
21st century policing we already had 90%
of those suggestions in place and the
ones that we didn't have in place for
contractual reasons which being
addressed in Chicago right now so what
were the results of doing all these
things and the thing that tied this
together was CompStat he was the
relentless follow-up making sure that we
implement we execute
and we put these things in place for the
better of the community lowest murders
and shootings in 50 years numbers and
per capita two years running 2013-2014
we've improved the numbers in 2014
lowest overall climb forty percent
reduction in crime in over forty years
and we did that per capita as well
because new the population Chicago was
larger forty years ago than it is today
so those are the type of things and at
the same time communities were safer and
the engagement that we had in the
community putting the same office in the
same place and we did this all with
arresting ten to fifteen thousand people
less a year think about that getting
lower crime getting reduction in murders
and violent crime and arresting less
people isn't that the goal making sure
that making sure that we do so I left at
December the end of December 2015 my
last days were in January went to the
private sector and then my calling came
again and I was fortunate enough to take
an interview for Wilmington Delaware it
was 35 national candidates and I was the
last one standing and I I'm fortunate
again because this is a city that has
some of the issues that other cities are
seeing but they're not insurmountable
they are not issues that we not cannot
overcome doing this together and the
biggest thing I'm doing in addition to
the things that I talked about it's
making sure the community engagement is
the number one thing that I do community
meetings out in front trying to first
gain trust the communities that we we
never had trust with and improve the
trust in the communities that that we
had a little bit of trust and it starts
there and then the rest of it follows
transparency and that's where I'm going
to be five months in and I'm also David
and I they'll be working closely David's
already been down in Wilmington Delaware
and I look to see some of the great
results that you have in in Newburgh US
Attorney and and I know we can get there
because we've done it in Chicago we've
done it with partners we've done it with
the community and that's where I want to
see women's and go but all this needs
time and the thing that I often ask and
I've asked my mayor and I've asked
community in my engagements yeah there's
no quick fix to this solution
I mean it's fixed its problem the
solution takes a long time it actually
needs sustainability and that's what we
need to do and cities like New York and
LA have sustained and that's why they're
having the successes in cities like
Chicago actually throw out the plan and
then you can see the results that are
happening today
and it's disheartening what's happening
Chicago so thank you David and I know
we'll be taking questions after after
the panel talks that's chief so there's
there's a theme emerging here which is
not not only can we do a better job than
we used to do a violence prevention but
we can do it in a way that actually
involves less law enforcement one of one
of the most recent peer-reviewed
published articles on this is in the
last but one issue of criminology and
public policy it's a study of several
years in Cincinnati in which these very
focused approaches reduce serious
violent crime by about 40 percent they
also brought citywide arrests down by
about 40 percent so that's that's a good
direction what we'd all want is to get
the arrests down to nothing whether one
is a criminal justice abolitionist or a
police chief everybody wants as little
law enforcement as as as possible and
one way of doing that is to build up and
to invent new community capacities to do
violence prevention which Davone you
have been doing so let's hear about that
thanks David good morning so I'm gonna
apologize now for a coughed that may
show up at some point so forgive me I'm
grateful to have the opportunity to be
in your presence today I want to take a
bit from Thomas and the chief in terms
of three
focus on the right people investment and
thereby creating the options viable
options in the city of Richmond I served
as neighborhood safety director for
eight years between 2008 2007 and March
of 2016
my job was a non-law enforcement job
within city government but I had one
sole responsibility and that was to
reduce firearm assaults and associated
injury and death and I was able to
convince the city at the time to hire
street outreach workers as city
government employees and I asked the
city to consider two requisites for
those hires we call them neighborhood
change agents inside city government
today but I wanted them to be formerly
incarcerated individuals I want you to
think about this next one and I wanted
each of them to have a firearm charge in
their background and I wanted them to be
full-time fully vested city employees
and you can imagine I can see by some of
your faces what human resources came
back to me with what the legal
department came back to me with but I
was able to convince the city manager to
to do it and you know everyone was
concerned about this revolving door of
criminality now inside city government
my answer to that was that's nothing new
right but today of the four neighborhood
change agents that we hired in February
of 2008 three are still there and now
one runs the shop and so it's important
to understand that piece of this work
around one focusing on the right people
but having the right people to focus on
the right people a couple of things
happened as I was doing my job in terms
of realizing some things because we
embraced ceasefire and do embrace the
ceasefire strategy but what I found
and that in terms of being able to focus
and locate the right people and having
some investment there is that we didn't
have any place to take them right and so
what became important to us or or really
real for us was we couldn't offer the
options we didn't have options and more
importantly the options we had like many
cities weren't attractive weren't
legitimate and weren't credible to the
population that we are talking about
understand that the people that at least
I'm talking about our the most resistant
to change
chronically unresponsive to social
services and supports and and completely
distrustful of the providers of them so
when you talk about providing someone
with services and they tell you fuck
your services
I don't want your services now what now
what do we blame them for that or do we
back up and go back to the drawing board
and figure out what can we now do
can we meet them where they are but can
we also meet them as they are right so
very important that we be able to do
that when these young people say screw
your services so what we did in
realizing this and confronting this is
we decided to create a platform that was
in fact attractive legitimate incredible
now how did we do that
well we had to engage we had to ask them
we had to ask active firearm offenders
who had avoided any criminal or legal
consequence what can work and you don't
just get to ask them you have to engage
them hang out with them be there right
every single day and here's what we
learned and then I'll shut up and this
is what we're trying to take to scale
and a few other cities we learned that
these individuals are waiting for us
they're waiting for us to show up with
some
then that makes them lean in they want
it to be engaged every day every day not
intermittent engagement every single day
in New York that means even when it
rains or snows right every day right
they wanted help developing life goals
and life maps but they also acknowledged
even at 27 years old they needed their
hands to be held in negotiating
achieving those life goals within their
life maps right they wanted to trust
social services but found it very
difficult to but they also acknowledged
that they needed to be taken they needed
to be taken to those social services
even if they were in their mid-20s
they didn't need a referral they needed
to be taken by the hand and walked
through that door and they needed to be
stayed with until they were ready to say
I'm now able to do this on my own so you
got to create the apparatus to do that
for we decided to raise private dollars
to make sure that we could provide them
with what we call a life map milestone
allowance yes so after six months of
your 18-month engagement sorry for not
telling you about that part right that
commitment you can become eligible to
earn up to $1,000 a month for nine of
the remaining months twelve months of
your fellowship opportunity with us
right
we understand you live in a very chaotic
environment in space and we understand
that crisis is happening all of the time
and scarcity is happening all of the
time it takes you away from the things
that may be important to you so we want
to make sure that based on your gold
achievement with your life map that we
are rewarding your life development so
we did that and today the media would
have you think that we're paying
criminals not to shoot but let me tell
you something if nine thousand dollars
got somebody to stop shooting who's
committed to shooting I take that deal
I'd take that deal I take that deal
right now here's where I think it gets
really interesting we decided you know
what it's hard to dream about some stuff
you don't know exists so let me take you
somewhere how many of you were in the
room when David said I was from Richmond
Virginia
you saw my response I'm from California
and the University of California is way
better than the University of Virginia
right as far as I'm concerned right no
offense to you Virginians in here but
every time we take a young man outside
of the state of California he says he's
from Richmond that's the response he
gets from the folks he's telling Oh
Richmond Virginia and he's like no
Richmond California and the the answer
or rebuttal is well where's that some
amazing shift in that young man's
mindset when he hears I'm out here dying
and people don't even know where I live
or exist so we take these young men
outside of the state of California but
let me tell you how that works really
quickly we decided California travel
will be for to expose these young men
for California exposures and exploration
they're going to do a lot of things that
I won't get into during this travel but
they're able to travel with folks that
are fellows that they go out shooting
other people with right outside of
California travel or outside of the
country travel which we do both several
times a year
the only difference or caveat is that
they have to be willing to travel with
someone that they're trying to kill and
with someone who is trying to kill them
and we've been all over the country
we've been all over the world without
incident right it's one of the most
transformational opportunities that
these young men have access to do they
come home kumbaya and allies absolutely
not but it's hard to shoot and/or kill
the person that I stood outside of
Nelson Mandela's cell with and
experienced that with over time right we
put a council of elders around these
young men men of color nearly retired or
retired who can demonstrate that they've
had successes in life and family to do
so help us do someone
life coaching life skills cognitive
behavioral therapy work etc and then
finally we provide a subsidized
internship and this is an important
piece of the work after 18 months we
don't do it before the 18 months let me
tell you why I learned something in my
role of getting young men jobs who said
they wanted jobs and getting young men
jobs in an environment that says that
that's all we need to do is get these
guys jobs no it's not they don't even
want jobs even if they tell you they do
they want money and those are two
different things
right and so you've got to understand
that because if you don't you'll place
them on these job sites and frustrate
them frustrate employers and frustrate
City stakeholders so rather than do that
again we decide it will take 18 months
to get to know these young men
understand their passion understand
their interest get them ready for job
right and then find them internships
based on that so that we can place them
in those internships and subsidize it
with a livable wage why was that
important the jobs piece was important
but also an eye-opener for us as well as
the social services piece and I'll leave
it at here because here's where we have
to get to we've got to understand that
to simply say we're going to provide
somebody services in an environment
where services aren't prepared to
provide themselves to these guys we're
setting these guys up to fail and we're
re-tramatizing these guys and the
other piece is to understand that these
guys are not ready for those services
and no services are not ready for these
guys and we can do better and we are
doing better when I showed up in the
city of Richmond we the fourth most
dangerous city in the country
forty-seven firearm related homicides a
year
today I don't know where we are but
today we're at nine homicides as of
today and so 61% reduction to 71 percent
reductions over the period of time that
we began to engage these individuals in
this deepen
way Thanks so did Devon you're reminding
me of my old friend Jim faily who was
chief in High Point for a long time went
way out on a limb in supporting drug
dealers not not in as refined away as as
you're talking about but it was enough
to get him tarred with hugga thug yeah
and he spent a lot of time being pretty
exorcised about this and then one day he
said you know I I've been thinking about
this I am willing to hug folks if it
would turn their lives around I will
kiss them on the mouth now David you
write as a deterrence theorist we
thought that's a strong deterrent and we
were bad but yeah I've been accused of
coddling no question about it coddling
and I would argue and I've been accused
quite frankly from very progressive
folks in fact that I'm providing to
privileged of an opportunity for this
group of individuals and we can debate
whether or not they deserve it
considering that on day one of each one
of these young man's fellowship
opportunity each is suspected of
murdering or injuring someone with a
firearm and each is committed to
continue down that path on day one of
their fellowship and my answer David to
that has been maybe they don't deserve
it maybe they don't deserve this
privileged opportunity but their next
victim certainly deserves for them to
have it if it keeps them from crossing
that line again so
Chicago the eyes of the world are on
Chicago for good and sufficient reason
and I resign I've seen you nodding along
with pretty much everything that people
have been saying and you you are in a
singular position in Chicago of thinking
about operations of thinking about
organization and coordination of
thinking about data and evidence and
evaluation and you are part of the core
group in Chicago that is trying to help
Chicago turn the corner so talk to us
about that sure thank you and it really
it's hard to come after all of all of
these folks and I agree with so much of
what was already said
I just want to maybe put into
perspective for those of you who are not
from Chicago and maybe haven't been
reading all of the headlines about
what's happening in Chicago into
perspective
in 2016 we had almost a 60% increase in
homicides so relative to 2015 a 60%
increase and no offense to smaller
cities a 60% increase might not be as
big a deal in a city with a very tiny
population when you have a 60% increase
in a city of nearly 3 million people
that's a lot of people and it really was
an historic event
there was no historical precedent for
cities top 5 cities population wise to
have a 1 year increase that big and that
sudden if you looked at the number of
shootings and homicides in December of
2015 you would not have predicted what
happened in 2016
every month month that the that month
had a higher homicide rate higher
shooting rate than the year before
and so it really was an historic event
and really unprecedented and I think
there's lots of conversation and debate
but I don't think absolute clarity on
what caused it and I think that it's
really a constellation of probably
several things you know the laQuan
McDonald video the heart-wrenching
incident that happened but then was put
out into the world for everyone to see
this just unconscionable action and in a
city that didn't have a ton of faith and
trust especially in the neighborhoods
with the high rate highest rates of
violence that incident plus you know the
change in leadership we should
acknowledge that to change in leadership
at the top of the police department
around the same time an agreement with
the ACLU that was put into place that
changed policing practices and what
information had to be recorded and how
it had to be recorded
so a whole bunch of things happened all
at once and it's just very hard to be
able to say with confidence what is the
thing that drove the increase I think
one thing that made the increase even
harder to turn around or think that it
was going to self resolved was some of
the challenges with the police
department but I also think it you know
I don't want to live in a world where
the only lover we're using to address
the violence or police I think police
are incredibly important I am one who
really does think that we ought to be
putting more resources smarter resources
into policing not less but I think that
we also need to be thinking about what
are the other levers that we have to
address the violence problem and
unfortunately in the state of Illinois
we were coming off two years of a state
that had not passed a budget so if you
think about you know whatever the event
was whatever the set of circumstances
was that caused that massive increase to
start to happen in January of 2016 the
the tools in our toolbox
there were some challenges happening
with effective policing to sort of put
it mildly but the institutions in these
neighborhoods that work with the
populations at greatest risk and I think
there aren't enough of them and they're
not always doing the right things but
those organizations those institutions
were decimated by the state budget
crisis so the ability the ability to be
resilient and respond to whatever the
shock was I think was really really
hindered as a result so so I think we
definitely have our work cut out for us
but I really I do feel like everybody
else on this panel this is a solvable
problem we have to have the political
will and we have to be insanely focused
on it in a way that I think is still a
work
progress in Chicago I think there's been
you know some momentum some things are
starting to happen but I you know I grew
up dirt poor I was homeless as a child I
care deeply personally about poverty but
I think that we it's a mistake to only
focus when we think about inequality to
think only about poverty I think far
more fundamental than inequalities
around poverty are inequalities around
safety you know if you think of maslov's
hierarchy the you know my ability to
live and be safe is so fundamentally
different than people who live in the
same city that I live in so I think we
really need to be focused on absolutely
let's figure out what the long term sort
of strategies are to address poverty it
is an important problem but I don't
think that it that should be done to the
exclusion of saying what can we do today
what can we do this month what can we do
this year to address the violence that
makes these neighborhoods really really
unlivable the just to give you a couple
of examples Thomas mentioned Englewood
you know even with the quote you know
miracle crime drop in the United States
where we were all breaking our kind of
arms patting ourselves on the back for
all the progress the homicide rate in
Englewood was 76 per 1000 that puts it
on par with neighborhoods or countries
that are the most dangerous places in
the Western Hemisphere that 70s 77 per
100,000 in 2015 which was a good year
relatively speaking went to 179 per
hundred thousand in 2016 the
neighborhoods that were already
struggling that didn't see the full
benefit of the sort of miracle crime
drop in the United States were the ones
that suffered the the biggest increases
and so I think we really need to be
thinking kind of laser focused
strategies that really have potential I
think some of the work that Davone
talked about it's it's really
encouraging to hear about that because
those are some of the things that we're
starting to stand up in Chicago we
should have started a long time ago it's
a you know it'll take a while for the
impact to really be felt because these
things take time this is not going to
change overnight there's important work
being done in
the police department to try to
recognize the fact that you know if we
want a police department to do really
high-quality constitutional policing and
build the kind of relationships that it
needs with the neighborhood we can't do
that on the cheap and we can't do that
by training officers in the Academy and
then basically walking away from them
after that so I think there's you know
some important reforms hopefully that'll
start to happen you know with the the
new consent decree the state attorney
general has announced that they're going
to enter into negotiation with the city
given that the federal government has
sort of stepped back from that so I hope
that that provides some resources but
it's it is a huge challenge and I get in
trouble all the time with the mayor
because he doesn't like to have it
reinforced but I really do think that
Chicago is a city at the crossroads and
the decisions that we make over the next
couple of years will determine whether
we are a city that finds our way out of
this or we become a city where our best
days were in the past we are losing
population through homicides and
shootings but also people are choosing
to leave our city Chicago is the only
big city that is decreasing in
population and I think a huge reason is
because of the violence and they're
leaving from the neighborhoods that we
really need people to be staying in that
the neighborhoods that need to have
young men of color who have couldn't be
role models for them those are the
neighborhoods that are losing people so
I think that this is you know a really
an existential threat to our city and I
think focusing on policing focusing on
some of these smarter kind of social
service interventions but in ways that
are really focused on the individuals
who are involved in the violence and
just to kind of paint a picture of who
those individuals are when we looked at
who was shot or who was killed in 2016
seventy-five percent of them were over
the age of twenty so it's really
important that we fund it you know
prevention and intervention and do
things in middle school in high school
we should not stop doing that but that
is not going to solve our violence
problem tomorrow if we don't have ways
to engage the individuals who are 20 and
older who have been exposed to enormous
amounts of trauma and violence and I you
know one of the things that I say with
one of the initiatives that were
involved in called the ready initiative
which sounds very very similar to what
you're doing it's an intensive
transitional jobs others
or CBT recognizing that people that were
trying to reach are not going to be the
one signing up and they may say fuck you
the first time someone comes to their
door and offers them this opportunity
but you know this is a program that you
know we really think you know we need to
be focusing on those driving the
violence and we need to not not give up
on on them you know for more reasons but
also I think for you know the future of
our city and just hearing the success
that you've had already is is definitely
encouraging but we need to be putting
much more in the way of resources into
that population and I think kind of
recognizing that while they may be a
shooter they've also been a victim and I
think it's important to start with that
understanding that I don't think that
there are many people there were
probably a few but I don't think there
are many people who are involved in the
violence who are shooters who were not a
victim first and multiple times and in
multiple ways and I think that's an
important thing to recognize as we're
thinking about why how we justify in
addition to preventing the future
victimization I think also recognizing
that they have been failed you don't end
up involved in this violence if you have
not been failed many times so I'm gonna
stop there so Rosanna you're reminding
me that we sit in in circles in which
we're working with say American
government folks who are looking at at
Mexico and the northern triangle they
they are happy to say these are failed
States these are places where the
government does not function cannot
provide public safety where there is no
no faith in the power of the state
nobody wants the help of the state when
when they are at risk
this agents of the state are seen as
more hostile than one's own neighbors
these are failed States and we look at
them and we say dude we work in Chicago
I mean I mean these these neighborhoods
are failed States they really are so
Thomas I want to ask you one question
and then and then go to the floor so you
you posed us a challenge
which is we need to have a genuine
political commitment to and program for
addressing this problem and what
everybody here has said is while deeply
imperfect we actually know how to do
this work in a way that makes a
substantial difference and it makes a
substantial difference in in the
communities and in the lives of folks
who need that difference the most this
is not a small issue for them or for
these places and and making making
change really matters so that is to say
it at one level that this is no longer
the what works and what can we do
conversation it used to be although we
all continue to do better the question
is really why aren't we doing it
and if if the if the big bridge is to
get from where we are to having the
National will and the national
commitment to doing this which is the
challenge that you posed how do we get
there so this is this is really the
question and I'll just sort of talk
about it personally for a second I've
been doing this work in various
capacities from you know teaching at a
very rough school in DC to being a
prosecutor and locking young black men
up to working with the Obama
administration and Governor Cuomo and
one of and I've been involved in
advocating for these strategies in
policing in intervention the use of
research like the crime lab does for
some time and what happens when you're
in the White House when you're in the
Statehouse when you're when you're in a
meeting with the mayor is no one ever
tells you you're wrong no one ever says
oh that won't work we have a better idea
and no one and what you get you don't
get a hard no you get a shrug you get a
it sounds good but this is not the
soundbite that I need this is not going
to appeal to this base or that base this
is not a quick enough answer this is not
easily digestible enough and so in my
own career having transitioned from
government to academia and having
decided to write a book my first thought
was well I've thought a lot about the
evidence I'll cobble that together and
I'll publish it and you know in an
academic press but if I published it in
an academic press who would read it
academics and ultimately what I need
what we need is a public that is
demanding of the politicians more than a
shrug at the end of the day this really
this isn't even about legislation we
don't actually need a lot of new laws to
address this this is just about
leadership and money I think the number
is in the range of between nationally
between a hundred million and two
hundred million that is a drop in the
bucket in terms of our federal
government that is not an unrealistic
number that does not require a remaking
of the federal budget and that's a few
million in different cities that money
is around we could fund these strategies
and that's something and and so I think
what we need to do is we need to now in
addition to continuing to build the
evidence you know our knowledge of what
works in policing isn't perfect you know
our knowledge in terms of prevention
isn't perfect we all hope to get better
and better at this work I mean focus
deterrence has evolved over over the
over its lifespan and will continue to
evolve we all want to get better but we
also have to do is break through and
start doing better advocacy about this
and one of the things that we need to do
as progressive is we can't be
uncomfortable about this subject we as
progressives are the leaders in violence
reduction David is progressive
Guerry slut gain is progressive all of
these things are coming from progressive
progressive people but we need Hillary
Clinton to talk about it we need Cory
Booker to talk about we need Elizabeth
Warren this needs to go to the highest
level and we need to be willing to do
that because if we don't do that
then it's only gonna be leaders on the
other side like trumpet sessions who
talked about that I'll leave it there
all right let's go to the floor I think
we've got microphones to turn around
questions please not speeches I will cut
you off and let's start in the back here
thank you thank you everyone for
tackling such a difficult subject for
the literally the first time this
conference two questions one Tommy do
you sort of just hit on it and now I'm
thinking differently about the question
is the data disaggregated to say you are
you know 179 per hundred thousand is is
that like a general demographic
statistic about the homicide rate or is
it disaggregated into race and do we
even want that number because my concern
now is that by making it less of a wee
problem it becomes less of a care
problem so that's question number one
question the to is for the chief do you
work with the first responders who are
not law enforcement not EMTs the people
who are in the hospitals and on the
scene to talk about like trauma when we
talk about the young men being
traumatized do you incorporate any
partnerships with those folks who are
really really critical in that sort of
that pipeline of a traumatic experience
and I should have asked wouldwould
questioners say who they are my name is
Adam Foster on an organization called
prosecutor impact
so I think it's a difficult balancing
act because I don't think we should ever
shy away from the fact that this is
disproportionately impacting poor
communities of color but ultimately we
have to engage beyond that community and
so what I think we need to do is is
message that while this
disproportionately impacts one one
portion of our national community it is
relevant and we are all paying for it
and then ultimately the challenge is to
is to extend our sort of circles of
empathy or of self-interest we can do it
either way or when we should probably do
both to explain to the broader public so
that we can gather those resources so we
can cobble together that 100 200 million
and say this is in your interest you
should do it because it's right you
should do it because over time it'll
cost you less money if it was just
aggregating by within the population so
the 179 per hundred thousand is for
Inglewood as a community if we looked at
young men in a certain age group young
men within certain social networks it
would be even higher so that's sort of
in a way understates just how
significantly concentrated and how
elevated the risk is for certain
individuals
you're unsafe but I'd also like to be in
a plane crash than you are from getting
shot by a person and to be back on the
rhetoric like these are these are
dangerous people we need to keep them
away from us to somehow express the
likelihood that that would ever happen
he was ridiculous so you really
shouldn't care about the cost piece and
your question about first responders non
law enforcement personnel firemen and
talked about the hospital's talked about
service providers emergency providers
yes absolutely they're important piece I
mean just yesterday right before I took
a train to come up here from Wilmington
I was late because I was at the Youth
Advocacy Council that had academics had
public defenders had hospitals were
representatives and we're brainstorming
with pilots and what we can do first to
look at risk youths from a very young
age working with the CDC and what type
of trauma affects them in their
education process that actually leads to
the issues that we have now getting to
getting to individuals that at an
earlier age so we could try to break the
cycle identifying it at an earlier age I
mean one of the things that we do in
Wilmington and are assigned to my
headquarters
we have victim services we have Child
Development through community policing
if we see things that are happening
where it isn't abuse we can report that
and they'll go in these victim services
see if they can help this family out and
then we actually meet regularly as a
council and then we have a line of
communication for things that are
immediate so it's very important that's
a great question going beyond policing
that we're all working together to
identify individuals that we can help
out I think I cut you off earlier so
let's let's go there so I really
appreciated the way that you framed the
inability of social services to connect
with these particular youth and I would
just add that in a parallel world it's
exactly the issue with schools that
schools absolutely fail to engage and
re-engage kids that have lost their way
the middle and high school level and I
would just point out that particularly
in Chicago efforts around school reform
were a catastrophic failure and so to
leave out what we're doing in schools
particularly what we're doing with
middle school kids that are leaving
school at that age in the wealthiest
country in the world is absolutely
tragic and I'm just wondering where that
fits into beyond policing and I don't
want that to not be a part of the
conversation so let me jump in on that
one and there's a let's expand what
you've just said so it's not just the
schools the law doesn't work for these
these folks policing doesn't work for
these folks health care doesn't work for
these folks and part of what what has
gotten us to the point of knowing that
there are things that we can do that
doesn't necessarily require fixing the
schools and fixing all of those things
which becomes as important as it is both
turkey lien and slow right we all
thought we have to fix the schools or
everybody's going to keep killing each
other at best that gets us 20 years out
all right so what what what you're
hearing and tell me if I'm not speaking
for the group but what you're hearing
from all of us is yes all those things
are terrible and it's still true that
almost nobody that the Chicago schools
fail in those neighborhoods will ever
shoot anybody we know who the people are
who are most likely to shoot and be shot
we go directly to them and we intervene
and we can make a big difference so the
the old logic that says in order to stop
the violence you have to fix all these
other things that's not right which
doesn't mean that for all kinds of other
reasons we ought to fix all those other
things but we don't have to travel that
path to keep people alive and that turns
out to be really important over here
somewhere
please you're next thank you and this
has been a great panel I'm Nina Vinick
from the Joyce foundation and I have a
question
mostly for Rosanna but for anyone else
on the panel as well so Rosanna as you
well know one of the issues that we're
facing in Chicago is an incredible
proliferation of guns and illegal guns
in particular which which really does
set Chicago apart from some of the other
big cities around the country and so my
question is if if we if we did
everything that you know everyone on the
panel is recommending how what's the
what's the sort of maximum impact we can
expect in a city like Chicago that is
overrun with guns that you know every
year you know takes upwards of you know
eight or ten thousand guns off the
street
how how close to zero can we reasonably
expect to get when when we're you know
facing this sort of you know external
threat from firearm availability yeah
now as you know I mean I used to work at
the Joyce foundation and so I think it's
you know it's an incredibly important
thing to recognize 90% of the homicides
in Chicago occur with a firearm almost
all homicides occur outdoor in a public
place so there's sort of proximate cause
if you think about it of homicides in
Chicago is illegal gun carrying in a
public place there are lots of other
things that you know circumstances that
feed into it but that is just a
fundamental fact and so I like to think
about it as a both and I think we need
to be figuring out what could you know I
I don't think we live in a world where
the federal administration is about to
take up the control you know the sort of
gun policy agenda other than to maybe
relax existing regulations and so you
know when you think about what can a
jurisdiction with the levers that it has
do to address the gun violence problem I
do think that there are really important
things that police can do to do smarter
more targeted more surgical
police work so they're focusing on the
right people for the right things and I
think that's really important I think
that there are there are things through
informal social control that people have
talked about ways that people in
neighborhoods can help intervene when
things are escalating and do a much
better job they are and so finding ways
to support and enhance the sort of
informal social control is important but
I also think that we ought to be looking
at what are the ways that we can reduce
the likelihood that you know when
violence does escalate or happen that a
firearm is at the ready and I do think
that there are things that the state and
the city are trying to do stuff that
you're involved in and obviously you
know we're about to put out some data to
really underscore you know there's not a
single gun store in Chicago so it is
hard for Chicago to unilaterally
regulate its way out of this challenge
and it does need the city I'm sorry the
county that it's in which is a county
that has a number of gun stores that
with guns that end up on the streets of
Chicago there's more that needs to be
done there that is I think a compliment
not a replacement to the other
strategies and then you know you can be
in the city of Chicago and closer to
Indiana a state with very very lacks gun
laws than you are to the loop area and
so you know I do think if there are ways
to think about sort of regional
approaches to address the sort of
trafficking of guns or the you know guns
going from the legal to the illegal
market that's those are things we should
be looking at and doing and you know
violence is such a sort of multifaceted
phenomenon and there's not going to be
you know a silver bullet
guns factor into it is why the u.s. is
so much more lethal even though we're
not necessarily dramatically more
violent so so I think we need to be
focusing on it but I think we need to be
realistic about what what can be done
with the levers we have access to right
now and so I think the sort of state gun
dealer licensing work they you know
Joyce has been supporting and others
it's it's really important but I think
you know no no single strategy is going
to be a silver bullet but I totally
agree that guns are an important thing
to be part of the conversation
I want to come back to your question sir
what is your name because you didn't
give it to us Joshua thanks for the
question I'm often asked you know if you
were doing something today different
that you've you've learned and and you
had you had an opportunity to go back
ten years when you started the office of
neighborhood safety what would you do
my answer is I create two parallel
tracks of street outreach these skilled
outreach workers have been critical not
only in the technical skills they bring
to the work their own background and
experiences that lend to their
competency in the work but they bring a
great deal of emotional intelligence to
the work and we get them really prepared
to go right into the pocket the very
warzone of where gun violence happens in
these communities to engage a very
difficult individual to engage within
that same pocket there are young people
younger people who aren't picking up
guns who aren't shooting but they're the
next generation of shooters because no
other public system or community-based
system of care is touching them how do I
know this my team came to me a few years
ago and said we can tell you who the
next round of fellows will be in the
next three to four years and my answer
wasn't a healthy answer I was so focused
I said somebody better get to him
because we're gonna stay focused on the
guys we're trying to get at and lo and
behold those individuals became the next
group and so what I would argue is that
we need to create specialized capacity
within our public system schools what
have you healthcare agencies but also
greater capacity even within our own
come
unity based organizations to go and meet
those individuals where they are bring
them into our services and then began to
overhaul to actually services platform
that we provide them we've had 84
fellows complete the fellowship over the
last six years six years through four
18-month auto-ship cohorts we invited
114 92 said yes 84 stuck of those 84 79
of them are alive or 94 percent of them
again understanding who this population
is 83 percent of them haven't been
injured by a firearm and since becoming
a fellow and 77 percent of them have not
or are not a suspect in a new firearm
crime by law enforcement the importance
of that is how that population itself
becomes to change its own mentoring
profile to that younger generation as
well thanks to them I promised you yes
hi hi um thank you my name is Lily
Shapiro I'm with the New York City
Department of probation thank you to all
of you my question actually follows up a
little bit on what the pre previous
question was about with respect to the
availability of guns but more
importantly the public narratives the
political narratives about who may
legally own guns right and how do we
grapple with these hard questions about
race about making people feel that their
lives are valued right that they have
either options or choices and will have
some help making a way out of the lives
they're caught up in when there are
narratives about mass shootings right
we've been having an entire conversation
here about gun violence and nobody's
mentioned Las Vegas where a white man
who was a legal gun owner managed to
murder 57 I believe it was 57 maybe now
it's 58 58 apologies to the family of
that last victim wears a white man
managed to legally own guns and murder
58 people right so I'm curious because
as a department and as an agency that
partners with community members seeking
to engage young people of color around
believing that anybody cares about them
and that gun violence is wrong how do we
both fold this into our engagement with
these young people and their communities
but on the other side of this how do we
who have some power and some influence
incorporate what is going on more
broadly into these discussions about the
availability of guns and whose lives
were caring about so this is a pretty
thorny issue and I think that the best
the best way to sort of parse it out is
to is to acknowledge what Jeremy
Ratcliffe criminologists said recently
which is in the United States we don't
have one gun violence problem we have
many and I would I would argue that the
four biggest gun problems we have are in
order of numbers of deaths and you can
argue about whether that's the metric
the number one gun violence problem is
suicides the second number in terms of
most lives lost the second is urban
homicides the ones we're talking about
the next greatest is domestic homicide
domestic violence related homicides and
then finally our mass shootings which
account for less than 1% of all
homicides but given the context be given
the enormous horror they demand our
attention the solutions to those
problems are separate there are
solutions that would have an impact on
mass shootings unlikely to have an
impact on urban homicides solutions for
DV unlikely to have an impact on mass
shooting so and what I would suggest is
politically we need to create a poor a
comprehensive package that addresses
each constituency because with suicides
it's older white men with urban
homicides it's young black men with DV
it's women and with mass shooters it's
you
you know I don't know it's everyone and
so that's what I would suggest but I
want to go back to urban homicide and
guns one of the key things that we have
to understand about guns is it is not
all about guns and it is not not about
guns it is the interplay between guns
hot places and hot people to have a
significant impact on urban homicides
you don't have to deal with guns
generally you have to deal with guns in
the hands of hot people when they
intersect with hot places and that's not
a legislative question and we don't have
to address all of these other things we
should but that's where the gun issue
really meet the rubber really meets the
road for this problem for this
population can I just say I was a great
question and you I'm glad you feel that
it not me because you did it much more
effectively but you know I don't think
that the answer is kind of what we're
seeing in Chicago or you have judges
basically saying you know what even
though someone's not legally allowed to
have a gun you know what they live in a
dangerous neighborhood so no harm no
foul no big deal because then I don't
know how we unwind the arms race and so
you know I do think that gun
availability is a function you know does
have an impact on domestic violence does
have an impact on suicide does have an
impact on urban homicides but I don't
think that the answer is let's just make
them more available to everybody I think
that that is a net negative hi my name
is Eric Alexander I'm here representing
the campaign for the fair sentencing of
youth I have to give you a little
background to help you understand the
question I was sentenced to I'm gonna do
this but quickly we're running out of
time
yes yes I was sentenced to 50 years
Department of Corrections as a juvenile
I served over a decade of my life inside
a prison before I came home I studied
psychology on the inside so I'm familiar
with Maslow's fraud Jung Skinner you
know all those philosophers so my
question is I've been home for 12 years
and after writing youth programs for
YMCAs across the country small clinic
chains and now working for organization
that seeks to end like without the
possibility of parole for children I
haven't heard of using those formerly
incarcerated and impacted as individuals
for agents of change
I was proximate to the issue so I
understand the issue of gangs and gang
violence better than both you can't
teach what I have inside of universities
so to continue to ostracize these
individuals from the issue and actually
give them meaningful employment to
actually help them solve some of these
issues so here's my question
what are your thoughts on employing some
of these juvenile lifers who have served
one decade two decades three decades for
decades
I'm meeting guys who are coming home
after serving five decades who have
spent those decades studying disciplines
that can actually help us solve some of
these issues so what are your remarks
you know what are your comments you what
are your thoughts of employing some of
these individuals putting putting their
feet to the pavement and using them to
help solve some of the issues that were
talking about where were you brother
that's what I miss you open tomorrow
they were there I mean we we did just
that in fact it was sort of mandated for
me as I share with the audience inside
city government to facilitate street
outreach in impacted neighborhoods I
recommend it to the city manager that we
hire as full-time fully vested and
benefited employees in government
formerly incarcerated or returning
citizens and we did it we I also
recommended that each of those
individuals have a gun charge in their
background and took a lot of flack for
that but as I explained and as your
remarks suggest it's had a huge positive
or optimal impact on the work outcome in
the city of Richmond and in my last
remark that was my reference point I
think that we have to create more
opportunity for that population to be
inside of our
schools to be inside of our public
health institutions our healthcare
institutions and our community-based
systems because it is as you know these
individuals who have some some of the
best emotional intelligence and skill
sets to connect with the realities of
these individuals in such a way that
they then can actually capitalize and
take advantage of what's being offered
in the current platform some could say
in Chicago there is a program much like
what he's done being stood up to really
work with those individuals give them
jobs give them employment skills you
know it's a new initiative but that's
really who would focus on and who was
designed by and for so I'm gonna try to
squeeze in two very quick questions and
answers risco hello everyone risco
mentioned louis w police commission of
Suffolk County of New York and also
founder of Council on thought and action
a support group for those previously
incarcerated my question is we've we
know how to reduce crime we know how to
look at the social networks we know how
to bring in those previously
incarcerated but my question is when and
where is that initiative that says we
are going to stand up new social
networks and communities all across the
country so that the cut so those
neighborhoods can build we can go in and
we can clean it out but how do we build
those new social permanent networks like
we do with council thought in action
across the country as a pot of policy
thank you I think certainly in Chicago
would recognize that just doing the
enforcement stuff without really
thinking about what's left behind and
how do you build up the capacity of
neighborhoods to be healthy resilient
places it's not it's not gonna be a
permanent fix so I think it requires
political will and resources and you
know if there's been a lot of change in
Chicago but I think that you know just
kind of trying to use the enforcement
lever isn't going to work and thinking
about what is the capacity that's needed
in the neighborhoods to be able to be
more resilient as something that has to
be really addressed
I'm sorry I'm talking about building
those people who are previously
incarcerated into noose
Network's new positive social networks
within their own communities not just as
employee permant but as new social
networks to counter the old negative
social networks so thank you I'm a
reverend Ruben Austria from community
connections for youth in the Bronx
question about the intersection of right
the the violence interrupters credible
messengers we call them credible
messengers here in New York City and
we've seen how effective they are study
just showed a two-thirds reduction in
felony ree convictions by matching
formerly incarcerated mentors with young
people the question about the
partnerships between police and credible
messengers one of the tension points
that I see on both sides is kind of how
closely are they going to communicate
whose turf is it going to be on a lot of
credible messengers will say you know I
don't even want to be seen with the
police a lot of the police will complain
they're not communicating with us what's
the best practice as far as the
connection and communication between
those two groups
so I'll take that one you find law
enforcement who will not work with
credible messengers you find credible
messengers who will not work with law
enforcement there's also a large body of
well worked out practice in which people
on both sides have figured out how to
have the kind of effecting working
relationships that can strengthen both
of them you can have effective law
enforcement without credible messengers
you can have effective credible
messengers without law enforcement there
are reasons to do that sometimes but
there is just to say it again a wide
range of worked out relationships in
which those parties have figured out how
to work together in ways that respect
the roles and the norms and values and
the vulnerabilities of each how you go
about that so longer conversation and
I'd be happy to have it but the answer
is there's an answer will you join me in
thanking the panel
you
