-Phoebe, so nice to see you.
Thank you so much for doing our
show.
I know this is a pretty tough
time you're going through,
we're all going through, but how
are you feeling right now?
-Hi, Jimmy!
It's been a while
since I've seen you in person.
I mean, I think
it's just sort of --
It just depends on
the day or the hour.
You know, sometimes,
you feel okay
and you're like, "Oh, things
are, like, progressing,"
and other times,
you just feel so defeated.
And I feel like
I've definitely been kind of
going through that,
living in New York,
and, you know, you kind of see,
like, the protests
and, like, people marching
and the silent sit-ins.
And it's all
very powerful and moving,
but it just sort of
makes me feel like --
I know that this keeps flaring
up every few years
and everyone's sort of like --
A lot of people are like,
"I can't believe
it's happening."
I think we have to sort of,
like, move beyond that reaction,
because this stuff isn't
surprising,
and it only bubbles up because
of years of suppression
and oppression
and not being heard
and just, systematically,
the system is designed
to oppress black people,
oppress those who don't have,
you know, the financial means
to be able to resist.
And I think that, you know,
I'm just sort of, like --
We really, truly have to look at
just our institutions
that we are so -- we so blindly
trust in a lot of ways,
whether it's, like,
local government,
federal government,
or the police.
I think we really have to start
being more active
in our communities and really
trying to be like,
"Okay, like, I really want to
have a part in this,"
instead of just only being,
like, shocked and awed
when things really go
haywire, you know?
People are in a lot of pain.
-Yeah.
Especially in the city,
can you talk to me about --
I mean, this is --
Can we talk pre-George Floyd
was scary enough with
the pandemic.
Did you leave
the apartment much?
Did you...
-You know,
New York is very resilient.
And, you know, we like to show
up and support each other.
But I think there is a mix of
some people feeling like,
"Oh, this quarantine is
inconvenient"
and not willing to play ball
and realize
this is a team sport, you know,
which I feel like
is a uniquely sort of
American attitude to be like,
"Well, this is infringing my
rights to, like, get fertilizer
or go to the hair salon."
It's like, people are dying.
I don't care
if I see your roots.
Like, you're 55.
Yeah, your hair's gray.
We get it.
We all get it, you know?
You're fooling no one.
You know what I mean?
-We're in the
same boat right now.
-Yeah.
-And then something
like this happens
on top of an
already-crazy moment.
And I think it's just an
interesting time
that we're living in and sad and
a lot of people just frustrated.
And I know I'm trying to change
and be better at, you know,
communicating and talking
and listening.
You know, when I see that video
of George Floyd, I can't watch.
I go, "Dude, enough.
I cannot watch this
awful thing."
But I can't even imagine,
as a black person,
how that would feel to watch
that over and over again
and just -- You know, you're
going -- Yeah, I don't know.
I mean -- And it's --
I don't know.
How does that affect you
when that comes on?
-Yeah, I mean, I can't watch it,
because I feel like
every time we watch
a black person
being horrifically murdered,
and then that becomes
who they are.
And I think, like,
outside of this moment,
outside of the uprising
that's happening,
what I want, on a day-to-day
level, to happen going forward
is to see black people as not
just the trauma they endure,
but as multi-dimensional people
who have jobs, who have kids,
who have family members, who
like to dance, who love to read.
And I feel like we get
so caught up in, like --
You know, there's a lot --
Like, the phrase of,
like, trauma porn.
And so, like,
you watch that video
and then you'll post,
you know, like, a quote
from James Baldwin, as if he's
the only black person
who's ever written
a [bleep] book.
And I'm like, "If I see
one more white person
quote James Baldwin,
like I don't freaking know --
-We can quote Alec Baldwin.
-[ Laughs ]
Not James. Dude, It's been done.
Oh, you're so right.
-Yes. And it just feels so
performative in a way.
And I'm like --
I think, on a day-to-day level,
we need to have conversations
with each other.
We need to listen
to black people.
We need to amplify, you know,
black female authors
who are also writing on this,
black trans authors who are also
contributing writing
about police brutality,
and sort of just remembering
that we are full people
who are happy,
and, yes, we deal with
a lot of adversity
in terms of racism,
but that's not my entire life.
That's not any black person's
entire life,
even if you are an activist.
And so I think not
seeing us as human
allows these videos to
constantly just
stay on loop every few years,
and I think that's
really harmful.
So I really want
the takeaway to be, like,
outside of however long
these protests last,
is that you see black people
for all that they are.
-Yeah. Is that one of
the reasons why
you started your
own production company?
-Yeah. I mean, I think with
"2 Dope Queens,"
Jessica and I really were
just sort of like --
I think we were just
surprised, in a way,
that people really reacted to it
and responded to it
so positively,
'cause we were just going,
"Well, we don't see
any sort of, like, comedy shows
hosted by black women
and, like, the alt theme that's
really, like, supporting other,
you know, black performers,
other performers of color,
other people
in the queer community."
So we just sort of started it
because we weren't seeing it.
And I think, you know,
I wanted to continue that
with Tiny Reparations,
because it's like
you can get to a certain point,
and it's great that Jessica
and I are here,
and we have "2 Dope Queens"
and she's doing movies
and I'm writing books,
but I don't want it
to be just us.
So, when I started
Tiny Reparations, I was like,
"Well, I --" My head of
development is Puerto Rican.
Jose is amazing. I love him.
The office manager, Mike --
he is Vietnamese.
And we really just wanted to
have this amazing sort of, like,
diverse sort of, like,
think tank of, like,
how we can develop different
projects right now.
-I agree.
I think that's totally --
You know,
one thing I was looking at, what
you can't kind of get away from,
if you do look at social media,
is that a lot of people
are saying, "It's not
a black person's job
to tell white people -- teach
allies how to be allies."
-Yes.
-And, so, I was wondering what
your take on that is.
I mean, I know it's not your
job to teach me
how to relate better,
but how would you kind of
lay it out for anyone
who's watching?
-Yeah, I mean, I think that,
you know,
whenever you're curious about
something, we have the Internet,
and so if people can sort of go
on Yelp to find the best tacos
and spend like two hours
searching for fajitas --
You know what I mean?
No one's confused
about how to do that,
but when it's about, you know,
social justice
and really showing up
and being an ally
and making things better,
I feel like
there's this tendency
to be like,
"Oh, I don't know what to do.
I need help."
And it's like,
I already have a job.
I can't take on another job.
I can't do it.
-Yeah. At least Google it first.
-Yeah.
-You can't come to me asking me
every single thing, yeah.
-Yeah, and I think it's about,
you know, in the workplace,
like, if you hear of
a job listing,
like, make sure
you're not just referring it
to your white friends,
but your black friends.
Make sure that -- You know,
I see a lot of people
on social media, a lot of celebs
and a lot of people
who are trying to amplify the
message, and they may donate.
And I'm like, that's fantastic,
but if you aren't
having conversations about race
with your children,
that's also part of the problem.
And it's not just about
this moment,
but it's about
for the rest of our lives.
-Yeah. It started -- Yeah, for
those who haven't started,
start now and know that
there is no end.
This is just
part of your life now.
And that's just the way
I'm looking at it, too.
Like, I have a new --
I have new things I have to do.
And I have two little girls that
I'm thinking about every day
and I go, "I want them to have
a great understanding
of where everyone is
and that we're all human
and that we have to help each
other and we have to look out
and we have to give back
constantly, always.
-Yeah.
-Do you mind sticking around?
I'd like to ask you some more
questions when we come back.
-Sure. I'd love to.
-Cool.
