>> JOSH CHATRAW: Oftentimes, when I talk to
students, and we begin, if the subject comes
up and we begin to talk politics, they can
think about Christian involvement in politics
in kind of a one-dimensional way.
In other words, they've come from a certain
tradition, and it's just assumed that this
is how Christians engage and think about politics.
And one of my goals in the course of the conversation,
is actually, not necessarily to change their
mind, but to have them explore some different
traditions and some different views in order
to strengthen and maybe impact for the better
their position.
And Amy has written and done a lot of work
in this area.
Can you take us through some of the different
views and help us think through this?
>> AMY BLACK: Right.
So, the book that I was working on is called
Five Views of Church and Politics, and the
idea is to focus on those particular Christian
traditions that have thought a lot about politics,
that have a more careful systematic approach
to politics as part of their theological tradition.
It's a good thing.
Not all traditions do.
Some traditions focus more on individual piety
and what it means as an individual believer
and how we should understand and live out
our lives as individual believers.
Other traditions are speaking more to the
communal aspect.
What does it mean as a community of believers
and how we work together?
And so, I think you're right.
When we talk to people, we all come from different
traditions.
There's so much that we can learn from one
another.
So, what I'm looking at are five particular
traditions that have the longest histories
of helping us think about church and politics.
>> CHATRAW: Wonderful.
Let's jump in, and maybe if we can start with
the Catholic position.
You can just explain that, and I might have
a few more questions. 
>> BLACK: And the Catholic church is a great
place to start, because historically that's
where the church starts, with the Catholic
church.
And so, the Catholic tradition of politics
has been an incredibly long one—over 2,000
years.
But if we look at the more contemporary Catholic
church, what we see is we have a church that's
very hierarchical.
We have the pope and his writings, and then
we have bishops and others who are speaking
to the church, as well as documents that speak
for the church in a way that many protestant
denominations don't always have quite that
same kind of document.
So, the Catholic church has important teachings
about politics and society.
One thing that the Catholic church really
likes to stress is the importance of the common
good of caring for others and doing what's
best for those around us.
And another principle that is very important
in the Catholic tradition is that of human
dignity.
We're all made in the image of God.
What does that mean?
And so how can we pursue the common good,
and how can we uphold human dignity?
One of those places, this tradition would
say, is through government. 
>> CHATRAW: So, what can protestants like
me, what can evangelicals learn from the Catholic
tradition?
>> BLACK: One of the things that I try to
do in the book, too, is think about how these
different traditions look at governments.
And the Catholic tradition has a very positive
view of government.
They look to government and they say, look
at these good things that government can do
for us—that government is useful and productive.
And so, it reminds us that there are good
things that government can do, and that government
can come alongside and care for people.
And so, things like safety net programs are
very important in the Catholic tradition,
and government is going to help provide those.
Another thing the Catholic tradition talks
about is the importance of political participation.
We'll talk about how we are to vote, that
that is actually part of our Christian duty.
If we're part of a democratic system, we need
to be participating in that system, not really
just for ourselves, much more for others,
that as a society, we come together.
We make laws; we shape society.
We try to help others.
We need to be a part of that conversation.
This tradition also likes to talk about the
moral, the importance of the morals taught
by the law.
If we say something is legal, it means something.
If we say something is illegal, it means something.
It's teaching people this is right, and this
is wrong.
So, we can understand moral foundation of
law, then we should be looking for and supporting
laws that move us in that right direction
toward what God intends, not only for us,
but for all of His creation, because He loves
us, and He wants us to flourish. 
>> CHATRAW: Is there a possible weakness for
somebody who maybe is inside this tradition,
but perhaps takes it on a certain trajectory
that you would caution about.
>> BLACK: Sure.
Well, one thing about the Catholic church,
perhaps one of its greatest strengths is also
a weakness in the sense of because it is very
hierarchical, because it's very top, down,
there are the official teachings of the church.
Just because the church has official teachings
doesn't mean that every person who attends
the church, every person in the pew agrees
with that.
So, there's a lot of, maybe sometimes even
confusion within the church, so it's hard
to speak with one voice.
I think it's a great idea to try to speak
with one voice, but then you also need to
recognize that maybe not everyone's going
to understand.
So, there's that weakness.
You can speak with a voice, but if you aren't
also teaching and making sure the people in
the pews understanding the purpose behind
it, it's a little bit harder, I think, to
be part of the political world.
>> CHATRAW: Yeah.
