>>> NOVEMBER 9 MARKS THE 30TH
ANNIVERSARY OF THE FALL OF THE
BERLIN WALL.
FOR 28 YEARS IT SEPARATED EAST
AND WEST BERLIN AND WAS A SYMBOL
OF COMMUNISM AND THE IRON
CURTAIN IN EASTERN EUROPE.
CAROLEE MCGRATH SAT DOWN WITH
THOMAS MAULUCCI AT AMERICAN
INTERNATIONAL COLLEGE TO TALK
ABOUT THIS HISTORICAL EVENT AND
WHAT IT MEANS 30 YEARS LATER.
>> EAST GERMANY HAD BEEN
ESTABLISHED IN 1949, IT WAS THE
SOVIET ZONE OF OCCUPATION.
AND IT WAS PRETTY CLEAR BY THE
TIME YOU GOT TO 1946, 1947 AS
THE COLD WAR WAS BEGINNING TO
BREAK OUT THAT THAT PART OF
GERMANY WAS GOING TO BE PUT
UNDER A SOVIET MODEL.
THE EAST GERMAN COMMUNIST PARTY
WAS VERY INSTRUMENTAL IN GETTING
THE SOVIETS TO AGREE TO THE
CREATION OF A WALL IN BERLIN.
THIS INITIATED A PERIOD IN EAST
GERMANY FOR 10, 15, MAYBE 20
YEARS IN WHICH THE ECONOMY BEGAN
TO STABLIZE AND KIND OF A SOCIAL
WELFARE STATE BEGINS TO DEVELOP
THERE.
SO IT SETTLED THINGS DOWN IN
TERMS OF INTERNATIONAL POLITICS.
BUT OF COURSE IT'S ALSO A
TRAGEDY THAT PEOPLE ARE STILL
TRYING TO ESCAPE FROM EAST
GERMANY TO THE WEST.
THE OFFICIAL FIGURE IS 140
PEOPLE WHO WERE KILLED AT THE
WALL, WHICH WAS A 27-MILE
BARRIER, BASICALLY AROUND THE
WESTERN ZONES IN BERLIN.
>> RIGHT.
AND THEN THE COLD WAR STARTED.
>> YES.
>> SO A WHOLE SERIES OF EVENTS
STARTED A CHAIN REACTION IN
EASTERN EUROPE LEADING UP TO
1989.
TALK FIRST ABOUT TO PLANNED, --
POLAND.
THERE WAS THAT VISIT IN 1979.
WHAT WAS GOING ON IN TO LAND?
>> IN POLAND THE ECONOMIC
SITUATION IN THE 1970'S WAS
PRETTY BAD, AND THIS ALSO WAS A
TIME OF DETENTE WITH THE WEST.
IN POLAND BECAUSE THE ECONOMIC
SITUATION WAS PARTICULARLY BAD
IN THE 70'S AND ALSO BECAUSE THE
POLES ALSO SEE THE SOVIETS AS
FOREIGN OCCUPIERS AND HAD A BAD
HISTORY WITH THEM, BY THE TIME
YOU GET TO 1979 THE POPE'S VISIT
HAS THIS TREMENDOUS VISIT
ACTUALLY ENCOURAGES POLES THAT
ARE OPPOSED TO THE COMMUNIST
SYSTEM IN SOME WAY THAT THEY
HAVE A LOT OF SUPPORT AND
ENCOURAGEMENT FROM THE OUTSIDE.
THEN IN 1980, THE WORKERS OF THE
SHIPYARD IN NORTHERN POLAND ARE
GOING TO GO ON STRIKE AND BEGIN
DEMANDING RECOGNITION AS AN
INDEPENDENT TRADE UNION.
THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS VERY
DANGEROUS FOR THE COMMUNISTS
BECAUSE ALL ORGANIZATIONS
BASICALLY HAD TO BE CONTROLLED.
THERE COULD BE NO PRIVATE SOCIAL
STRUCTURE OUTSIDE OF THE
SUPERVISION OF THE COMMUNE ITION
PARTY.
BY THE TIME YOU GOT TO 1981,
SOLIDARITY WAS BIGGER THAN THE
POLISH COMMUNIST PARTY.
AND EVEN NO SOLIDARITY GOES
UNDER GROUND IN 1981, IT STILL
IS OPERATING UNDERGROUND, IT
STILL IS BEING ASSISTED BY THE
POLISH CATHOLIC CHURCH AND BY
OTHERS.
IN 1988 ALL KINDS OF CHANGES ARE
HAPPENING IN EASTERN EUROPE, THE
POLISH COMMUNIST GOVERNMENT
DECIDES IT HAS TO SIT DOWN AND
NEGOTIATE.
SO THAT'S GOING TO LEAD TO TALKS
THAT BECOME THE ROUNDTABLE
DISCUSSIONS IN 1989 AND
EVENTUALLY LEAD TO A DEMOCRACY.
>> 1987, PRESIDENT REAGAN MADE
THAT FAMOUS SPEECH AT THE WALL,
MR.
GOSH ACHIEF, TEAR DOWN THIS
WALL.
TALK ABOUT REAGAN'S ROLE HAD THE
COLLAPSE OF COMMUNISM.
>> HE FIRST CAME IN AS A COLD
WARRIOR UNDOUBTEDLY AND I THINK
HE CAUSED A LOT OF FEAR AND
ANXIETY AMONGST THE COMMUNIST
GOVERNMENTS, ESPECIALLY BECAUSE
HE WAS TALKING ABOUT REARMING
THE UNITED STATES AND USING A
LOT OF HIGH TECH WEAPONRY.
THIS IDEA OF AN ARMS RACE THAT
MAYBE THEY COULD NOT KEEP UP
WITH, ESPECIALLY AT A TIME OF
ECONOMIC DIFFICULTY, WAS
SOMETHING THAT THE COMMUNIST
GOVERNMENTS DIDN'T WANT TO
ENVISION.
THE QUOTE IS VERY FAMOUS.
I THINK RONALD ROIG AN WAS
SOMEONE WHO WAS THERE AT THE
RIGHT TIME, BUT YOU HAVE TO
REMEMBER ALSO THAT ALL AMERICAN
LEADERS SINCE 1947 OR 1948 HAD
BEEN EXPECTING THE SOVIET UNION
TO COLLAPSE AND PERHAPS NEEDED
PRESSURE TO MAKE IT COLLAPSE.
SO I THINK REAGAN WAS THE RIGHT
MAN AT THE RIGHT TIME.
MORE IMPORTANT, THOUGH, WAS
GORBACHEV, THE SOVIET LEADER IN
BECOMES THE LEADER OF THE PARTY
IN '85.
HE BASICALLY DECIDES HE'S GOING
KA CHANGE FOREIGN POLICY AND
MAKE IT MORE COLLABORATIVE.
THAT'S WHY WE HAD THE MISSILE
TREATY IN 1988.
HE TOLD THE COMMUNIST
GOVERNMENTS WE'RE NOT GOING TO
SEND THE SOVIET TANKS IN ANY
MORE IF YOU GET IN TROUBLE WITH
YOUR OWN POPULATIONS, YOU NEED
TO REFORM THE WAY WE ARE.
THE SO-CALLED SINATRA DOCTRINE,
I DID IT MY WAY.
GORBACHEV BASICALLY AGREES TO
THESE REFORMS, THEY GET OUT OF
HAND IN THE SENSE THAT THEY'RE
GOING TO LEAD TO SOMETHING OTHER
THAN THE CONTINUATION OF THE
COMMUNIST SYSTEM, YET HE DOESN'T
INTERVENE WITH FOR EXAMPLE WHICH
HE COULD HAVE EASILY DONE AND
THAT'S NOT A NORMAL BEHAVIOR FOR
A RULER OF A POWERFUL STATE.
>> SO THE IMPACT OF 1989 OF THE
FALL OF THE BERLIN WALL, JUST
DESCRIBE THAT FOR US.
>> I THINK IT REALLY WAS KIND OF
THIS UNBELIEVABLE YEAR, ALL
THESE MARVELOUS THINGS SEEMED TO
HAPPEN.
EARLY IN 1989 THE HUNGARIAN
GOVERNMENT OPENED UP ITS BORDER
WITH AUSTRIA, SO THERE WAS A
MOLE IN IRON CURTAIN.
IT WAS OBVIOUS BY SUMMER THAT
POLAND WAS GOING TO HAVE A
DEMOCRATIC GOVERNMENT.
THE UNITED STATES INVADED PANAMA
TO GET RID OF A NASTY LEADER
THERE, MAN YELL NORIEGA WHO WAS
KNEE DEEP IN THE DRUG TRADE AS
WELL.
AND A FEW WEEKS LATER LETS
NELSON MANDELA OUT OF PRISON.
AND LOW AND BEHOLD, 1989 ALL OF
A SUDDEN THE BERLIN WALL COMES
DOWN.
AND FOR AN OUTSIDE OBSERVER
SEEMS LIKE A YEAR OF MIRACLES.
AND I THINK IN RETROSPECT I
THINK PEOPLE ARE A LOT MORE
SOBER ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IN
1989.
IT WAS THE SYMBOL OF THE END OF
THE COLD WAR, OF THE END OF
COMMUNIST REGIME IN EAST
GERMANY.
I THINK 30 YEARS LATER LOOKING
BACK A LOT OF THE HOPES OF THAT
ERA WERE NOT REALIZED.
PEOPLE THOUGHT IT WOULD BE AN
ERA OF GREAT NEW INTERNATIONAL
COOPERATION, PEOPLE THOUGHT THAT
DEMOCRACY WAS GOING TO SWEEP
ACROSS THE WORLD AND EN TRENCH
ITSELF.
SO MUCH SO THAT ONE POLITICAL
SCIENTIST TALKED ABOUT THE END
OF HISTORY, MEANING THAT
EVERYONE WOULD ACCEPT
CONSTITUTIONAL DEMOCRACY.
PEOPLE THOUGHT THE FREE MARKET
WAS GOING TO SPREAD AROUND THE
WORLD AND BE UNPROBLEMATIC.
AND I THINK IN RETROSPECT WE
WERE A LOT MORE SOBER THAN THE
WORLD THAT WE LIVE IN TODAY AND
PERHAPS MISSED OPPORTUNITIES.
I KNOW THAT DESPITE THE INITIAL
EUPHORIA IN MANY PLACES IN
GERMANY, THERE STILL IS A BIG
SPLIT BETWEEN EAST AND WEST
GERMANS.
AND MANY EAST GERMANS FEEL THAT
THEY WERE TREATED AT THE TIME AS
SECOND CLASS CITIZENS, THEY WERE
ABSORBED INTO WESTERN GERMANY,
AND EVEN TODAY WAGES, LEVEL OF
RETIREMENT PAY AND OTHER THINGS,
HAVE NOT CAUGHT UP TO THE LEVELS
IN THE WEST.
SO THE QUESTION IS THIS GOING TO
BE A GENERATIONAL THING, WILL
CONDITIONS CONTINUE TO IMPROVE
AS THEY HAVE, AND MAYBE IN 30 OR
40 YEARS WE WON'T BE TALKING
ABOUT THIS DIVIDE ANY MORE.
OR WILL WE STILL HAVE THIS
PSYCHOLOGICAL EAST-WEST SPLIT IN
THE COUNTRY.
