- For this amazing event
we have for you today.
I'm Raymond Robertson.
I'm the director of
the Mosbacher Institute
here at the Bush School of
Government and Public Service.
And one of the things that
the Mosbacher Institute
focuses on is trade, and then
economics and public policy.
And hardly anyone really embodies
that link between trade and development
and economics and policy
as Jane Mosbacher Morris.
We're extremely delighted
to have her with us today.
You'll probably recognize her name,
which will come up, I'm
sure, later, Jane Mosbacher.
She is the founder and the CEO
of To The Market, which is a company
that connects businesses and consumers
to ethically made products
from around the world.
Clients include Bloomingdale's, Dillard's,
Target and a number of other companies
that I'm sure you've heard of.
She's also the author of this great book,
"Buy the Change You Want to See,"
and using your purchasing power
to make the world a better place.
The book has been featured on CNN
and Bloomberg and Forbes and Marie Claire,
and it was a Target nonfiction bestseller.
We're extremely excited to have her
joining us today.
And so with no further ado,
I'd like to introduce
Jane Mosbacher Morris.
- Well, thank you, Raymond, for having me,
and hi, everybody.
I'm really thrilled to get to share
a little bit today.
I'm, of course, sad to not be in person,
but hopefully we can
do this again next year
and I'll be able to attend in person.
But thank you, Raymond,
for inviting me to share.
- Yeah, obviously, we're very excited
to be having this time with you.
And we're also very disappointed
we couldn't do this in person.
I know students really love
sort of the one-on-one engagement.
But as you said, if the
students can hang on
for another year (Raymond laughs)
we'll get you (Raymond
and Jane laugh) next year,
and I think it'll work out great.
The way I thought we would proceed today
is to have a conversation,
just a really casual conversation
so you can tell us a little bit
about yourself and the
work that you've done
and about the book.
I am actually really excited
to hear more about the book.
So I read this book.
I thought it was really amazing.
It tied a lot into the work
that I do, which is in
global value chains,
and especially ethical sourcing
and improving human rights
and working conditions in supply chains.
And so it seems like we
have a ton in common.
How'd you get the idea
of writing this book?
Can you tell us a little bit
about where this came from?
- Sure.
So, you know, I'm someone
who is very driven.
My father, I think, is listening in
and I'm sure he's
nodding very aggressively
as I say this. (Jane laughs)
And it's interesting,
despite having a lot of different goals
growing up, actually writing a book
was not on that list.
So it wasn't something
I was working towards
or was really thinking hard about.
But when I started To The Market,
which, as you shared, helps connect
ethical and sustainable suppliers
who have been overlooked
in the global marketplace
to big brands, retailers and corporations,
I started to realize
that this conversation
around conscious consumerism
was sort of being dominated
by a very specific part of the population.
And I think it was leading many of us
to believe that conscious consumerism
was only for the wealthy
or that it was only
for one political party
or that it wasn't accessible to all
or it wasn't applicable to all.
Or conversely, this idea that for me
to be a conscious consumer,
I either, A, have to take a vow of poverty
or B, you know, the
only path forward for me
is joining the Peace Corps.
And all of which is great,
if that's what you are so called to do.
However, I really wanted to speak
to the idea that conscious consumerism
is for everybody and it
can be for everybody,
regardless of your political beliefs,
regardless of your socioeconomic level,
regardless of the occupation,
or lack of occupation,
if you choose to work in the home.
This is a concept that is
available for everyone.
And in particular,
the book speaks to how we can leverage
our own personal spending,
both as individuals,
as well as individuals
working in nonprofits
or in businesses, to help
actually advance our values.
- Yeah, that's really important, right,
because it really empowers.
It's very empowering for all of us
'cause we're all making
these consumer decisions
and we actually can, as you demonstrate
in your book, that we
can make a difference
in developing countries, right?
A lot of the book
talks about your travels
to developing countries.
We had, our previous
dean of the Bush School
was Ambassador Ryan Crocker.
And one of the things he told our students
was to go hard places and do hard things.
And that really resonated with me.
And that was, it seemed like the voice
was definitely coming
right out of the book,
(Raymond laughs) out of
your book 'cause you had
a lot of personal experiences
in these developing countries.
What were some of these
that really affected you?
Which ones do you think
really stick out in your mind?
Can you tell us a couple of those stories?
I'm sure we'd love to hear them.
- Sure.
Well, I mean, I absolutely
echo his advice.
I think if you have the
opportunity to travel,
even if it's traveling to a different part
of the United States, allowing yourself
to be in an environment that's different,
that's difficult, that perhaps
you're surrounded by people
who don't look like you,
don't sound like you,
don't have the same experience
on this planet as you
is hugely helpful.
A, I find it to be wildly grounding
because we're reminded of
how extraordinarily grateful
we can and should be
for our position in life, A.
But B, I would say
it also exposes us to passions
and opportunities to make change.
So I'll start with one story
that I speak to a little bit
in the book, but certainly
have talked about
quite a bit.
When I started my career,
I never thought I would be in retail.
In fact, as my dad probably recalls,
again, he's on the call,
I worked retail in college
and maybe high school, summers,
and really didn't like it.
I was convinced I wanted
to be in national security
my entire career.
9/11 happened while I was in high school.
I was outside of New
York when it happened,
and it had a very big impact on me.
And so I became very committed
to better understanding
what was sort of the driving
forces behind terrorism.
And so I went to Georgetown
School of Foreign Service
for undergrad.
I studied international security.
Started working at the State Department
my junior year in counterterrorism,
and was convinced I would
be working there forever
and ever, amen.
One of the things that I specialized in
at the State Department was engaging women
on the issue of terrorism
and counterterrorism.
I, by sort of accident,
discovered that we, as a government,
at this point in time,
were not really talking to women
in particular about security issues.
Not purposefully,
meaning it wasn't sort of
a purposeful exclusion,
but what we were doing
is our security sector
was talking to the security sector
of other countries.
And security sectors, still to this day,
is dominated by men, which is fine,
but that means that you're not talking
to 1/2 the population on an issue
that's really important.
And in many ways, is a norm.
Is using violence against non-combatants
acceptable to advance a
political objective or not?
And so I thought, okay, we need
to be speaking with
women about this issue.
It's impacting their
families, their communities,
their country, the future.
How do we have more conversations?
And so one of the communities
that we were very engaged with
at this point in time was Afghanistan.
And I oversaw a number of programs
related to talking to women in Afghanistan
about the security sector
and about terrorism and counterterrorism,
conflict resolution, et cetera.
And to get to the travel piece,
when I visited Afghanistan
and had an opportunity to sit
with some women who were participating
in one of these programs.
And these were women that were working
at the Ministry of Interior, which is like
our Department of Justice.
And so these were very
progressive women, relatively,
that they would, A, be
able to work at all,
and B, be able to work
in the security sector,
which in many communities,
including our own, is actually
pretty progressive and new
that women would be
working in security at all.
So relatively very progressive
population of women.
And I remember them talking to me
about the lack of control that they had
over their life
in very, very fundamental ways.
I have no problem telling my husband
that I'm interested in ordering Thai
versus pizza tonight.
That wasn't a conversation that was,
you know, they weren't
necessarily (Jane laughs)
ordering food, but there
wasn't a conversation around
I have this preference
and I'm gonna express
my personal preference to you
about something as basic as food.
And it really planted a seed for me
that for women
to have more influence
and feel more comfortable
sort of pushing back
or expressing themselves,
that them having access to capital,
whether they earned that capital,
whether they shared that capital,
meaning there was more equality in the way
that the money flowed within the family,
or they inherited that capital,
that giving women access to capital
was a critical part for
them to feel empowered
within their family
and their community and their country.
And that's when a sort of critical seed
got planted for me in my personal journey
around wanting to focus on the creation
and sustainment of jobs
for vulnerable persons.
So that's story A is visiting Afghanistan.
Story B is fast forward.
I had left the State
Department at this point.
So I'd moved from counterterrorism
to work for Secretary Clinton
on global women's issues,
specifically still working on women,
peace and security.
Had done a business school MBA.
Had gone to work for Cindy McCain
on human trafficking
and labor exploitation,
and had decided I wanted
to pursue To The Market.
And I was on a trip
to Calcutta, India.
And actually, I was still
with Mrs. McCain at this time.
And I remember we visited
a number of locations around India,
including in Calcutta,
where we were learning
about human trafficking
and labor exploitation.
And we visited communities
of survivors who were
sort of in the process
of healing and moving forward,
and trying to move
forward with their life.
And then we also visited
a couple of different social enterprises
that were specifically employing
both survivors of human trafficking
and labor exploitation,
as well as those that
are highly vulnerable
to human trafficking
and labor exploitation.
And I remember being extremely struck
by the dignity with which
the women carry themselves
in these social enterprises.
And I remember very clearly seeing
the impact of having meaningful work,
what that had done to sort of transform
and heal the spirit, physically,
mentally, spiritually, et cetera.
And it was a huge,
again, sort of seed planted for me
on how transformative
the dignity of work is,
how impactful it can be.
And again, how it has the ability
to truly change the trajectory
of anyone's lives,
particularly vulnerable populations,
particularly women.
- Yeah, that's a really powerful story.
I mean, those (Raymond laughs) women
really have had the, really suffer more
than just about anyone else.
And it's really important, right,
that you established this.
When you were making these connections
to try and get women
essentially plugged in,
right, to the global economy,
what kinda response have you been getting
from the private sector?
So when you approach these companies,
I know you can maybe give us some examples
of who you've worked
with or how that worked,
what kind of response do they get?
Do people care about sorta
these people in these countries?
I mean, it's far away.
And how do you sorta increase awareness?
- You know, it's changed over the last
four-plus years, since To The Market
has engaged significantly with big brands,
retailers and corporations.
I would say initially,
there was a lot of
sort of congratulations
on what you're doing.
It sounds really wonderful.
But I could tell there
was tremendous hesitation
around the scale
that I fundamentally believed,
and I think we've shown,
that this business approach can have.
So there was concern about quality.
There was concern about professionalism.
Just this idea
that how could we possibly source
a product from a, even if it was
a very well-developed social enterprise
or even Fair Trade Certified factory,
GOTS organic certified factory,
and have that product
be at the same quality
or price point as these
traditional factories
from which they've gotten
used to sourcing from.
And so we had to overcome that bias
that somehow the product
would not be as good,
the pricing would not be competitive,
you know, that the
professionalism wasn't there.
But I think what we have shown
is that it is absolutely possible
to shift your sourcing and manufacturing
away from factories who have
questionable environmental
and social footprints towards those
that are actively investing in people,
actively investing in the environment.
And ultimately, you can actually create
a better product, a more premium product,
and have more connectivity
to your consumer,
particularly the millennial
and Gen Z consumer,
who together will control
the most purchasing power
in the history of the world.
- Yeah, one of the things that they
expressed concerns about was scale.
Just to follow up on that, right?
And you said you sort of overcame that.
Can you just elaborate
a little bit on scale?
Like, how did you get 'em to scale up?
I'm just curious about that.
- So we made a critical decision
at the beginning of starting To The Market
that we were going to partner with nodes,
not with individuals.
And that was a really important decision,
and one that like if I
was to take a step back
and say so what's the
so what for everybody,
when you're thinking
about building something
or building something
within an organization,
meaning you're an entrepreneur
or you're an intrepreneur,
making sort of key decisions around
who your partners are early on
and how you partner with
people that allow you
to scale is really, really critical
to the success of your objective.
So for us, what we
realized at the beginning
was it takes just as much time for me
to communicate with a cooperative leader
who has 300 people that are
a part of their cooperative,
as it does to a single maker
who is sort of sole proprietor.
And so we realized that for us
to have scales of business,
it was not in our highest and best use
to try to organize people into nodes.
We needed to work with
existing organizations
who had already set up.
They were sort of, quote, export ready,
or close to expert ready.
They just needed someone
like To The Market
to help partner with them
to help bring their abilities,
their production capacity, their skillset,
product set, et cetera,
to the global marketplace.
- So once you make these partnerships,
you know, and I'm going through the book,
I find all these great examples
of people who are producing
ethically sourced products and stuff.
And I know that we have a lot of people
in the audience and consumers throughout
the United States and Europe
who would like to buy from these types
of ethically sourced companies, right?
Reading your book is awesome
and I recommend that
everyone reads the book.
I mean, aside from that,
can you talk a little bit
about the marketing strategy?
Like, how do you get the word out?
How do consumers know whether or not
something's been ethically sourced or not?
Can you tell us a little
bit about that, please?
- Sure.
It's very category-specific,
and some categories are more driven
by third-party certifications than others.
So the leading industry
on supply chain transparency
is the food and beverage industry.
That's a place where most of us can go
to a grocery store,
we can pick up a bag of coffee
or look at the back of almost any product
that we're interested in buying
and see where it's organic
or farmer location
or Fair Trade Certified.
I mean, there's actually
myriad certifications
that exist in some of these industries,
like coffee and chocolate,
which I talk about in the book.
So that makes it easier for us
to better understand
sort of the better choices.
And the better choices
across categories are ultimately driven
by what's your sort of primary value
that you're trying to solve for.
So one of the things
that is really important
about this idea of conscious consumerism,
and one of the reasons
(Jane laughs) why I wanted
to write the book is
you don't have to care,
not everybody has to
care about the same value
to be a conscious consumer.
I could be hyper driven by helping empower
women-owned and operated businesses,
and that is like my sort of core value
that I try to advance
with my spending power.
And I do that with this
specific category of spend.
My husband is from Kentucky.
He has seen tremendous job loss
in the manufacturing space.
He cares deeply about
seeing more and more jobs
in the United States, so
he loves to buy things
that are made in the USA.
And that's conscious consumerism, too.
You're solving for your value set.
So everybody can be looking
for whatever value set
is most important to them,
and then aligning on that category.
So I would say how do you know?
First, you have to ask yourself,
what is it that I care most about?
Is it sustainability?
Is it the country in which it's made?
Is it fair labor practices?
And then that will help drive you
on making a decision
based on that category
and that value set.
- Yeah, I know that from talking to folks
and doing my own academic research
that a lot of times, consumers want
to make ethical decisions
and they want to buy,
and they have a hard time kind of knowing
what different supply
chains are doing, right?
So you mentioned a couple of
these certification programs,
especially in food and coffee.
Is this something that exists
in all industries, like in clothing
or furniture or electronics?
I mean, can you talk
about some of the ones
that you've noticed that
have been effective?
- So outside in food and beverage,
this certification process
has begun to trickle
into other industries,
and some industries are
more advanced than others.
So in the retail industry,
so apparel, let's say,
you are seeing more and more
certifications on labels.
So places like Madewell, for example,
are coming forward and saying, "Okay,
"we are committed to do X number
"of our denim program
"with Fair Trade Certified denim."
So you're beginning to
see that certification
show up in a consumer-facing way.
Other times, the certifications
or the programs to
improve the supply chain,
as you know, given the
work that you've done,
aren't necessarily communicated
to consumers in store.
But if you do a little bit
of Sherlock Holmes work
on the website of the company,
you can read a lot about the investments
that these companies have made to improve
their supply chain.
And oftentimes, that doesn't show up
as necessarily a
third-party certification.
Many times, companies like Starbucks
develop their very own programs
to help make their supply chain cleaner
and more environmentally friendly.
So it does take a little bit of research
when you get outside of food and beverage
because there isn't that
like very clear call out
of the third-party certifications,
but it's absolutely possible.
- Yeah, one of the other benefits,
right now, the consumers are
kind of identifying these
and they're trying to look
for positive sourcing.
One of the arguments I've made
in the work that I've done,
it's through this program
called Better Work,
which tries to improve working conditions
in garment factories, is that
by treating workers better
and by having better HR practices
or (Raymond laughs) training workers,
paying them on time and stuff,
that that actually helps
factory performance.
Have you noticed that that's true?
Have you seen evidence
of that in sorta like
the co-ops you're working
with or something,
in terms of factory performance?
- Absolutely.
I mean, I think, and it
shouldn't, it's interesting.
I think we're all getting
our head around the fact
that you see improved morale,
and therefore, you see higher efficiency.
When I think in more,
quote, white-collar jobs,
we've known that for a long time.
That if you have a happy workforce,
you're gonna have a more
productive workforce
that works more closely together,
that is able to solve problems
more quickly and efficiently.
So yes, absolutely, you do see
lower turnover, for example,
when you have a facility
who is treating their,
the term, as you know, is operators,
people who work in the
facility, operators fairly.
You also see just sort of a devotion
and passion for the work
that then shows up in
I think better quality,
as well, because there's that
sort of personal commitment to the work
that then shows up in
how the work is done.
So all of these commitments
around both labor practices
and environmental commitments
almost always show up in the bottom line
in some way.
And that's what I think, again,
when I think about where's the opportunity
for us to help expand the narrative
around conscious consumerism,
these are examples of where I wanna say,
"Hey, this is not just
doing good to do good.
"This is doing good
"to do better financially as well."
- Yeah, I think that's really critical.
I mean, one of the
problems that we're facing
in 2020, obviously, is
that it's a lot harder
for all companies to be doing better
because of this COVID crisis, right?
So I know everyone's affected by it.
They probably would like
to hear a little bit
about how you are dealing with that?
I mean, it's been hitting
these developing countries
really hard, right, because consumers
aren't buying as much,
and that means that trickles down
through the supply chain.
What kind of anecdotes have you seen
or how are you responding to that
kind of work on resilience
and helping these really
poor women mainly, right,
in these countries that are suffering?
- Yeah, no, so the sort of lack of buying
by us, as consumers,
has absolutely impacted women
across the value chain.
So even in less ethical facilities,
the vast majority of
garment workers are women.
So they are impacted whether they're in
an ethical factory or
a less ethical factory.
I would say that, you know,
there was a bit of a ripple effect
where you had corporations
canceling orders for product,
which oftentimes put factories
in really difficult places
because they had already, in many cases,
bought the raw material, had begun labor.
In some cases, finished the labor
around that product.
And yet, you had corporations,
who clearly have a much,
or I would say in most cases,
with the exception of those
that are facing bankruptcy,
have a stronger balance sheet
than the factory, and yet they're asking
the factory to take on the cost
of the canceled order.
So that's obviously, I think,
a huge challenge for factories,
who have partners who have refused to pay
for orders that have,
but they have sort of expended labor
and raw material costs against.
Similarly, this is
the sort of quintessential challenge
that we have around COVID,
where how does one balance
the economic fallout with
the health implications?
And so in many of these countries,
they had total shutdowns
of the facilities,
and so people were unable to work.
And unlike the United States,
there is little to no social umbrella
to help provide things,
provide additional assistance,
whether that was food
or financial assistance.
And so it did create tremendous challenges
for workers in developing countries
who were facing no income
for potentially months at a time.
So that is a big challenge,
and one that I don't think we've seen
the true fallout from how those
who are really at the margin
of sort of lower middle class
to sort of upper lower class
are being pushed down
into poverty in many of these communities.
And so it's something that we need
to grapple with and think hard around,
A, what can be done to help accelerate
the private sector's role in re-creating
and sustaining these jobs?
That, I think, is critical, A.
And then B, asking ourselves,
from a development standpoint
and a public sector standpoint,
what needs to be done
to help move this population
who has shifted into more poverty,
how do we move them back
towards a more upward trajectory?
- Yeah, I agree.
I mean, that seems to be one
of the driving questions of our time.
I mean, the World Bank
just announced that they
expect more than 60 million people
will be falling into poverty
as a result of this COVID crisis
and the lack of demand.
So it's really critical, more than ever,
to have a company like your
group, To The Market, right,
that's really trying to
make those connections.
So when we come back,
we'll have that kind of demand
and really target helping the people
that need it the most.
That really makes me wonder
kind of more about To The Market itself.
I mean, can you tell us a little bit more
about this company, and
especially, if I may,
with a little wink kind of,
maybe you have some opportunities
for internships or something
for some Aggies or something
you might wanna? (Jane laughs)
That'd be great if you could
tell us about that stuff.
- Yeah, you bet.
So To The Market
is a venture-backed startup.
So that means that we are
a new business startup.
Venture-backed means that
we have outside investors.
We focus on connecting
what we describe as
nontraditional suppliers.
So artisan groups,
women-owned-and-operated factories,
GOTS organic certified factories,
Fair Trade Certified factories,
communities of people
who have been overlooked
by the traditional supply chain.
And we focus on connecting them
and working with them
to be able to service,
meaning produce for, big brands,
retailers and corporations
around the world.
So we see our role as democratizing access
to opportunity as it relates
to the retail industry.
I would say highlights is that we get
to work with a variety of different types
of clients, everything
from Bloomingdale's,
where we constantly have some sort
of collection that's sitting in there.
For holiday, it will be ornaments.
Feel free to Google and buy. (Jane laughs)
Or it's doing private label
for companies like Dillard's,
where we're helping
them introduce organics
to their juniors lines.
Or it's providing a corporation
who has made commitments
around sustainable development goals
or ESG objectives
or corporate social responsibility,
we're helping them advance those
through the procurement process.
So it's quite a range of types of clients,
but it's very, very exciting to see
someone who might make a decision
that feels inconsequential to them.
So I could be someone who is in charge
of the investor summit
and I'm in charge of
buying 20,000 tote bags
to give out at the investor summit.
And I've made a commitment
in the bank to support
and empower women.
And then they work with
somebody like To The Market,
and we're able to make
sure that those products
are ethically made
in a women-owned-and-operated factory.
And then we get to hear
really extraordinary stories
about the power of an order like that,
doing things like paying
for a year's worth of school
for the maker's children,
or even sort of things that we feel like I
certainly take for granted,
having our shoes shined
so that they show up to
school and feel dignified.
So again, it's awesome to see just
a decision of, oh, I'll work with someone
who is being more, a
little bit more thoughtful
about the way that they're directing
their procurement versus buying it online,
how the trickle-down
effect is quite significant
and having meaningful impact
on the quality of life of others.
- And then you were
maybe gonna say something
about internship opportunities.
I don't know if you're-
- Internships.
So we already have, one of our interns
is already an Aggie, which is fabulous.
But we always take
interns, we love interns.
So absolutely, if you
are interested, please.
Raymond, you'll have to let me know
who the right point person is,
but feel free to send along your resume
and we can see if there's
a fit in the organization.
- That's awesome.
One of the things I really
was really excited to hear about
was you started off your career
in international security,
in the international security field.
We have a lot of students who do security
here at the Bush School,
that's one of our specialties.
But your career trajectory
has been very different.
Just are you willing to offer any advice
to our first- and
second-year master students
who are now wrestling with some
of the same questions that you had?
- Yeah, sure.
I guess first thing I would say
is the world is very small,
so small, tiny, tiny, tiny.
And so I
am fortunate that I have,
I was taught early on
to treat everyone with kindness,
even when it's really hard.
And I'm so grateful that I have
because as I have gotten older,
the world has shrunk even
more so than I thought.
It was already small when I was in college
and grad school, but it feels like
it's gets even smaller each year
I'm on this planet.
And so my first advice
would be treat everyone equally.
Somebody who is your
intern could be your boss
in three or four years,
so keep (Jane laughs) that in mind
and don't burn any bridges.
That's my key advice is treat others
as you'd wanna be treated.
Second advice would be
you have to be your own best advocate.
And what I mean by that
is it's nobody's job but yours
to advance your career.
It is nobody's job but yours.
So if you are ambitious,
if you have things that
you want to accomplish,
which I hope are in the service of others,
it is your job to map out
what that looks like.
Any help you get along the way is bonus,
it's sprinkles, it's icing,
but you have to create your own kick.
You have to sort of map your own destiny
and figure out what you need to do
to get yourself to where you wanna go.
Taking personal responsibility
is really, really critical.
And something that I think has served me
in doing that
is working my tail off
at the expense of lots
and lots of other things.
And so if you want it,
it's your responsibility to get it,
but know that it is, it
takes a tremendous amount
of hard work.
But if you have that commitment
and you have the sort of
personal responsibility
of saying, you know, this is on me
to get to where I wanna go
and I believe I can do it,
I believe you can do it.
Final thing I would share is being open
to what your career looks like.
So (Jane laughs) I shared
at the beginning that I
started in counterterrorism.
I never thought I would
be working in retail,
and yet here I am.
And I think keeping an open heart
and an open mind
to where you can best add value
is really, really critical because I think
we are, as humans, most effective
when our passion aligns with
a specific problem that we
can help uniquely address.
So if we can keep an open mind
as to what those passions may be
and keep an open eye
as to what those challenges may be,
I think we'll ultimately land in a place
that aligns that passion
with solving that
problem that we identify.
- Yeah, that's great advice.
I mean, as someone who also
loves work, (Raymond laughs)
you know what I mean?
That resonates a lot with me.
And I love that you can share that message
with our students. (Raymond laughs)
That's a great message,
to continue to work hard.
I just have one more question.
We're starting to get a bunch
of questions in the chat.
I had just one more, if you don't mind,
I mean, one more thing
I'd like to ask you.
Just, as you know, I'm the director
of the Mosbacher Institute,
which is named for your grandfather.
And I, really, one of the greatest laments
I have in my life is I never
had a chance to meet him.
Could you just, what
memories do you have of him?
Are you willing to share any kind
of family anecdotes or
any memories that you have
of him just for us?
- Yes.
I mean,
an extraordinary man.
A great grandfather,
a great father to my father.
I think he modeled service.
He could have chosen
to spend his time in different ways,
but he loved our country
and he believed firmly
in serving our country.
One of the things that his father
used to do
is drive him
through challenging neighborhoods
in the New York area
and tell him to look out the window.
So this is now my great-grandfather
talking to my grandfather, and say,
"Do you see these people?
"The only difference between
you and them is luck."
So it was this reminder
of you are very fortunate.
You were born in a very
fortunate situation,
and you have an obligation
to do something with that.
And I think that was passed
on very, very clearly
to my father.
And he passed that on very clearly
to me and my two siblings.
And so I'm grateful to them
for that mindset because
it makes life rich.
I mean, this idea of, you know,
I said that you have to work
your tail off, and you do,
you absolutely do if you
want to make an impact.
But if you believe fundamentally
that you're serving others
and you're doing what
you're supposed to be doing,
it doesn't feel like work.
And it's exciting.
It doesn't mean it's not exhausting,
but it is exciting.
And it's something I'm very,
very grateful for because
I wake up each day
and I feel very driven to advance
the purpose that I feel
like I have being on this planet.
And so
that's something that stands out to me.
Similarly, he would say
about public service,
"It doesn't pay well,
"but the benefits are out of this world."
I don't know if anybody got that.
It's like when you die,
you get to go to heaven,
benefits are out of this world, okay.
A lot of blank faces, but
(Raymond and Jane laugh)
I always thought that
was funny. (jane laughs)
- I got it.
- Thank you.
I always thought that was a good one.
So I'm just, yeah, I'm very, very grateful
that he let me shadow him.
I got to be
at so many places where he was willing
to take me and I could just listen
and learn and absorb,
which I encourage everyone to do,
is absorb as much as you
can from other people
around you that you can learn from.
And yeah,
I feel so fortunate to have had someone
who was as thoughtful and engaged
with us grandchildren as he was.
- Well, I have to say that
I think we feel that fortunate
to be having you here with us today.
And it really means a
lot that you've been here
and sharing these ideas.
A lot of students and
a lot of other faculty
actually are sending in some questions.
May I just, I'm gonna go through the list.
- Yeah, sure.
(Raymond mumbles)
- I'm gonna go through the questions
in the order in which they came in,
so I'm not gonna try and favor anyone,
except for the people
who are working hardest
to get in first.
(Jane laughs)
So the first question we have, right,
is it better to lobby for companies
to become more ethical or is it better
to stop buying from those companies?
Which do you think would
have a bigger impact?
- I like both.
So buycott and boycott.
Boycott is I won't buy from you
because I don't agree with your values.
Buycott is I will buy
from you because I want
to support the work that you're doing.
I think they're both very valid.
I think lobbying is helpful,
but I think using your wallet
is even more powerful
because if I'm running a business,
I can ignore your voice,
I can ignore your letters of complaint.
I can't ignore if you are a customer
and you walk away from me
and I have to explain to my investors
why I lost this deal.
Or, on the flip side,
if I see my commitments to sustainability
or labor practices are resulting
in increased customer loyalty,
that shows up on the bottom line, too.
Quantitative change that I can
like very definitively point to
I think it's very, very powerful.
So both, I think, are worthy,
buycotts and boycotts.
- That's really helpful.
The next question
is coming from a business school professor
here at A&M, right, who is working on,
working with women gemstone miners, right?
And so his point is that women miners
are obviously exploited, right?
They're frequently exploited, as you know,
and discriminated against.
They usually must sell their gems
at a discount to what the men sell at,
so they have a direct lower wage.
Do you have experience
with directly bringing gems
mined by women to market?
And do you believe that
To The Market customers
would prefer gems mined by women?
- So we haven't done,
we haven't focused on really jewelry
or like gemstones.
That being said,
I do think that there is a,
probably a,
there would be support
for women-mined gems.
The reason I'm saying that
is that women control the majority
of discretionary spending in households,
whether they earn it or don't,
meaning they are the primary purchasers,
even of products for their husbands, sons,
whatever, you know, if there's
males in the household.
And so women react very positively
when they hear that
it's a women-owned-and-operated business,
or if it's women-grown
coffee or women, you know,
fill in the blank.
It's something that Nielsen
has shown that women
respond positively to.
So yes, I do think it's something
that would resonate with the consumer.
- That's good news.
That gives us a lotta hope.
The next question was can you tell us more
about your experience as a woman
in fields that are usually
very male dominated or
male-dominated industries?
And if you have any advice, too,
the student's wondering in particular.
- Yes.
Counterterrorism was
absolutely male dominated.
I would say
it gets back to, I think,
being your own best
advocate is part of it.
So I remember I had
an instance where
in addition to being, I
think, one of the only women,
I was also probably the youngest.
I remember very distinctly
one of my colleagues, who I adore
and am still friends with,
but for some reason felt compelled
to describe me in an
email to somebody else
that I was his intern.
And I remember (Jane laughs)
just having like a very
matter-of-fact conversation
with him about it.
Like, asking him why he
described me as his intern.
And it wasn't sort of
emotional or confrontational.
It was just, you know, again,
matter of fact, saying like,
"Hey, I'm your colleague.
"Help me understand why you described me
"as your intern."
And so I would say
in any case when you are
not in the majority, from
a demographic standpoint,
and you feel like there is the potential
for discrimination, I think being
your own best advocate is important, A.
B, I also think it's important
to understand what the
culture and norms are
of the community in which you're working.
So I have another very
distinctive memory of.
I'm sure my dad will
laugh when he hears this.
I am like obsessed with Disney World.
I think it's like the
greatest place on the planet.
And I remember
coming back from a trip and I had bought
a Disney World notebook.
And I remember sitting in a meeting
with my Disney World notebook.
And I remember later that day
having a conversation
with my colleague, Vic,
who I adore.
And I was like, "I feel like people
"aren't taking me seriously."
And he spoke truth to me.
He said, "You have a
Disney World notebook."
Like, "This isn't helping your case."
And I was like, "Wow, you're right."
Like, I need to pay attention to the norms
of the community in which I'm working.
I'm all for like be yourself,
but, you know, it also,
if there are norms within an organization,
being aware of what
those norms are and how,
if you choose not to follow those norms,
how that can be received is important.
I mean, it's just a choice that you have
to sort of consciously be aware of
and consciously make.
And so to women, in particular,
who are in male-dominated fields,
I would say stand your ground,
but do so in a way
that is collaborative,
rather than competitive.
Meaning assume the best, that
these are your colleagues,
that they want the best for you.
That they're not purposely
operating in a way
that is designed to make you feel
like you're not included,
but when you do feel, for
some reason, unincluded,
have a matter-of-fact conversation
about it to address it.
You can probably address it
cleanly and move forward.
- That's great advice.
I wish everyone was taking that advice.
I think it would help a lot.
That's great.
Another question.
The next one is, can
you tell us more about
To The Market?
Like, what other industries
does To The Market support?
Is it mainly artisan goods
or kinda what's the range?
If you can give us some
examples, that'd be great.
- Sure.
So To The Market does apparel,
accessories and home goods.
And then as of March,
we started sourcing PPE.
So those are our four categories.
It ranges from very price-accessible,
so doing things like tote bag for Target,
tote bags for Target,
to more, quote, luxury goods
for brands like a Bloomingdale's.
It is some artisanal,
but some of it is,
you know, organic cut and sew,
meaning product that is
literally cut and then sewn.
And sometimes our orders are 50 units
and sometimes our orders
are over a million units.
So it's very much so driven by the client
and by the partner with
which we're working,
meaning is it an artisan group
with a production capacity
of a hundred units a month?
Or is it a GOTS organic certified factory
with a production capacity
of a million units a month?
All of those variables
help drive what we end up doing.
- That's really great.
Another question was sort of about
the application of this model
to tourism and services, services broadly,
but tourism in particular.
There's a lot of opportunities
for ethical tourism.
Could you talk about have
you gone into services?
Have you done any tourism at all?
Could you talk about that?
- We haven't done any services
or sort of tourism-focused things.
I think like my big thing,
and I talk about this in the book,
on tourism is making sure that,
or trying our best, because
there's no way to be perfect
and none of us are perfect
by (Jane laughs) any stretch
of the imagination,
but trying to think about how,
if we want to be sort of
more conscious tourists,
how are we spending our
money on the ground?
So are we able to engage
with local tour providers, for example?
If we're doing things like service trips
or mission trips, thinking really hard
about what the model is.
I talk about this in the book,
about how sometimes the model,
the service trip or mission trip model,
can be more effective
if it focuses on local empowerment,
rather than us flying in
to build something
that could have been built
and created jobs for communities.
Or doing things like
bringing in a lot of supplies
that could be locally purchased.
So you're flooding the market with a good
that then lowers the price of that good
for the sellers of that good locally.
I mean, there are a lot of,
obviously, complicated dynamics.
But I would say being
a conscious tourist, I
think, really focuses on
how can I be really thoughtful
about the environment I'm in
and making sure that I thought about how
my decision is impacting
those on the ground,
rather than sort of what it is
I'm setting out to accomplish.
And last thing, really quickly,
is I discourage against
like voyeuristic tourism
on sort of poverty tourism.
Meaning like if there is an opportunity
to learn about a different community,
which is, I think, so critical,
I would ask yourself,
how do you do it in a way where
you are respecting the
dignity of the person
that you're spending time with?
And so they don't feel like
they're sort of on display
in a voyeuristic way.
That would be a sort of last word
around conscious tourism.
- Yeah, that's excellent advice.
So another question came in
asking about your
production in industries,
and particularly what you've talked about
and the countries you've talked about.
Is there a specific country
that you've been working
with in particular or?
And there's another kinda part to it,
is there's, obviously the need is great
and the hands are few,
(Raymond laughs) as you know.
So how do you find
these nontraditional suppliers and co-ops?
I mean, it seems like that
would be difficult to do,
but you're good at it, so we wanna know
kinda how do you do that?
- So we started in countries
where I already had deep connections
because of my work on women's empowerment
and my work on human trafficking
and labor exploitation.
So at that point, that
was India and Nepal.
So I had already
really strong organizational
contacts there.
I spent time on the ground
with those communities.
And then what would happen
is I would be in a city for meetings
and then they would say,
"Have you met with A, B and C group?"
And I would then leave having had
those three additional meetings
because of having sort
of a local network effect
coming into play.
So starting with your strength,
I think, is important,
building off of that strength,
and then expanding from there.
Our expansion strategy
has been very much so driven by where,
again, I already had initial contacts
based on my previous work.
So that sort of gave us a foundation
on which to build.
And then we really relied heavily
on like a network effect of referrals.
And that, then, has allowed us
to move into now 30 countries.
- That's great, that's
great, their expanse.
Such an important need,
right? (Raymond laughs)
It's just so exciting.
Another question was,
and this ties specifically for you
and your career, which
was how does security
and ethical sustainability
in supply chains intersect, right?
Like, what kinda
connections have you seen?
And have you encountered human trafficking
in your clients' supply chains?
Like, have you ever become aware of that?
And how kinda does the market help
get them to stop?
- So I would say,
like on the security front,
obviously, there are different
types of security, right?
So there's national security
and then there's human security.
Security is literally the
security of your person.
That's where things
like domestic violence,
sexual assault, human
trafficking come into play.
I would say national security
has less of an impact
on the industry I'm in, with the exception
of when there are sort of
global political feuds.
Then you see trade routes being disrupted.
And that can, of course, impact
any category, including
the retail industry.
But from a human security
standpoint, yes, absolutely.
I mean, unfortunately,
in many countries,
there is rampant labor exploitation
and human trafficking that takes place.
And finding alternatives
to help address the challenges
can be tough.
Even organizations like the ILO
don't recommend, for example,
shutting down a factory
if there is labor exploitation.
They instead focus on trying to remediate
the factory because
they're trying to ensure
that those folks don't go without
any work at all, no wages.
So it's not easy
and it's not clean-cut
as to how one addresses challenges
that they meet.
That said, there are some sort of like
total bans that exist.
For example,
I think it's Uzbekistan,
there's sort of a ban on
cotton, cotton importation,
because of widespread child labor
that's used in the picking of the cotton.
There are some sort of very broad strokes
that the Department of Labor has painted
as it relates to reducing
either child or adult labor exploitation.
But I would say it's so case by case
as to how how you address the challenge
because, ultimately,
you're trying to improve
the facility to be able to continue
to employ people in an ethical way,
rather than shutting it down
and putting people in a place
where they have zero income.
- Yeah.
And the next question actually feeds up,
and it's as if
that was a follow-up (Raymond
laughs) question to this one,
even though it was different person.
But they're asking how
much does policy work
play into improving working conditions
in developing countries versus
sort of this one-on-one
factory by factory?
Can I see that, right, there's a couple
of different approaches?
This is the George Bush School
of Government and Public Service,
and they're interested in policy, right?
So how much policy
versus this one on one?
- I think it's a mix.
It's definitely a mix
of sort of using legislative
sort of push
to create pressure on companies
to improve working conditions
or sustainability practices.
But it's also very,
very, very much so driven
by the private sector.
I continue to be blown away
by the extent to which the private sector
is able to force
legislators to make changes
more so than pure advocacy alone.
And it's not just one or the other,
meaning the role of advocacy
and the role of activism is critical.
That said, where I think there's room
for significant improvement is activism
and the private sector working alongside,
together, to make change.
For example, if I am Pepsi-Cola and I am
the primary job creator
in a certain country,
getting my help on
pressuring the legislators
to make changes around things like,
you know, child marriage,
I have a lot more influence than
Save the Children because I
am the primary job creator
in the country.
And so I think it is a place
where I think there's tremendous room
for improvement, and I think
we're seeing this improvement happen.
But for anyone who's interested in going
into the not-for-profit sector,
whether that's government or that's NGOs,
I encourage you strongly
to remember that those
in the private sector
can be your allies in helping you
to advocate for change
because, oftentimes,
they may have more influence
than you may.
- Yeah, I've seen a lot of examples
of that in apparel, right?
A lot of the main buyers
are starting to work together with the EU.
And so they're trying to harmonize
and move in the same
direction, interestingly.
Yeah, that's really,
that's a big deal right now.
Another, the next question
was that you mentioned
you're working with women in Afghanistan,
and women really need capital, obviously.
This person's asking how
much have societal issues
in parts of the world kind of halted
their prosperity or limited growth, right?
So, I mean, (Raymond
laughs) societal issues
putting a damper on growth.
Has it changed since
you were in Afghanistan?
Have you seen some changes in there?
And then kind of to follow up on that,
there was a lotta questions
here, they snuck in,
and how can our students,
as future foreign affairs professionals,
work to heighten the need
for gender equality
domestically and abroad?
That's a lot.
- Yeah, I mean, I would say
you don't have to be
a gender equality diehard
to realize how powerful
gender equality is in helping
to advance other objectives.
So again, from my personal experience,
I feel deeply passionate
about women's empowerment,
but ultimately, my
decision to engage women
on the issue of counterterrorism
was because I thought
that we would create a safer environment.
My objective was security.
And so regardless
of whether gender equality
is your primary passion,
realizing how
gender challenges can
negatively affect things
like the education of a community,
the economic prosperity of a country,
is critical because
statistic after statistic
shows how critical it
is to invest in women
and how that trickles down
into so many other leading
development indicators.
And so in places like Afghanistan,
I think we saw tremendous growth
and tremendous change in rolling back
many of the really
challenging restrictions
that the Taliban had
implemented on the population.
Unfortunately, one of
the challenging parts
of us sort of reducing
our footprint there,
and I'm not making a comment on whether
that's the right decision
for the United States
or not, but unfortunately,
one of the sort of outcomes
of us reducing our footprint is that
women's rights are at risk
because there aren't necessarily
as many partners on the ground
helping them to advance that change.
And so I would say
that all decisions that are made,
whether it's around security
or it's education or health,
have serious implications
around gender equality.
And understanding what
those implications are
is a part of sort of
doing your due diligence
of what sort of the impact is
of whatever policy
decision is being pursued.
- Wow, there are like four
or five more questions,
but we're out of time, unfortunately.
But that means that people are gonna
want you to complete back.
So we wanna (Jane laughs)
thank you very much.
I'd invite everyone to do
a little virtual applause
to thank (Raymond laughs)
Jane Mosbacher Morris
for joining us today.
We'll do this.
And if you wanna learn
more, a lotta the questions
that were left over could be answered
by reading the book, (Raymond laughs)
a lotta those answers
to the other questions.
So we encourage everyone to make sure
(audio cuts out) the
book or visit the website
To The Market.
And we also hope that y'all will join us
at the Mosbacher Institute
for our next event,
which is Disney's Approach to Human Rights
and Global Supply Chains with Laura Rubbo,
who's their CSR person.
I don't know if you know Laura or not.
But we wanted to thank all
the students and faculty
and everyone else for joining us today.
This has really been
an amazing discussion.
I couldn't be happier.
For those of you in my
class, we're gonna take
about a five-minute break
and then we'll transfer over.
But other than that,
thank you, Jane, so much.
You're really amazing.
It's just so encouraging and inspiring,
and I just really am
grateful for your time.
Thank you so much.
- Thanks for having me.
- [Raymond] Thanks, everyone.
