(uplifting music)
- Live from Hong Kong,
publisher, journalist
and democracy activist, Jimmy Lai.
Born in Mainland China,
Jimmy Lai fled the communist
regime reaching Hong Kong
as a stowaway on a fishing
boat at the age of 12.
By his late 20s he owned a garment factory
and created the international
clothing brand, Giordano.
And then in 1989,
the massacre took place
at Tiananmen Square.
Mr. Lai sold Giordano to establish
a public publishing house
with pro-democracy titles
that now include Next magazine
and the Apple Daily.
For participating in
pro-democracy protest,
Mr. Lai was arrested
late this past February.
He is now standing trial,
and I should note, that for legal reasons,
we will not be discussing his case.
Welcome to this--
- Right.
- Special plague-time edition
of "Uncommon Knowledge with
Peter Robinson" and Jimmy,
good morning to you.
It's evening here but good morning to you.
- Good morning.
Just one thing about me that
is missing from what you said,
I was forced to sell Giordano
because I was participating
in the June 4th massacre controversy.
So, Beijing threatened to close the store,
our stores in China
and that's why I had to
sell the stake in five days
without damaging the investors
value or the wealth.
- I see.
I see.
- Yeah.
- But you were forced to sell Giordano,
that I did not realize.
- I was forced, I was forced.
- All right, Jimmy,
- I was (cut off by Peter).
- We last spoke.
We last spoke
when you visited the Hoover
Institution in person,
this past October,
that was just seven months ago.
Since then, you've been arrested twice
and China has made clear its intention
to introduce a new
security law in Hong Kong.
This is what you said to me last October.
I'm quoting you Jimmy,
"In mainland China, the regime
is facing a lot of problems.
"They might give us protesters
in Hong Kong, what we want.
"Because they need to do something.
"And I'm sure that their situation
"is much worse than they pretend."
Seven months ago, Jimmy,
you were optimistic.
What has happened since?
- Well, yes, I'm very optimistic
because every entrepreneur is optimistic.
But I just don't know why the
situation actually in China
is much worse than seven months ago,
in the aftermath of the coronavirus,
the economy in China,
is actually a lot worse.
And the situation of Xi
Jinping is also a lot worse.
The One Belt One Road, the tension
with the U.S., everything is unraveling.
Everything is in a worse situation,
maybe the worst situation.
The more they leak enemies
from outside to unite
the people inside China
to face up to the outside enemy,
so they forget about the
problem they're facing in China.
Sometimes we think the CCP
is very weird
because they are weird just
because they see the world
through a prism of a different value.
They're very irrational.
Maybe they really need outside enemies
to unite the people, to avoid
the bad situation there.
- So they may be acting from weakness
rather than strength, in your judgement.
- I'm sure, I'm sure.
- I see.
Jimmy let's come to the proposed
new National Security Law.
When Britain returned
the colony of Hong Kong
to China in 1997, China agreed
that for half a century, Hong Kong
would enjoy a high degree of autonomy.
Those are the words in
English, in the agreement.
- Right.
- And that would include
impartial courts and free speech.
Yet this past May, China
declared, the Mainland declared
that it would impose a new security law
on Hong Kong to become
effective, almost certainly,
by this coming autumn.
The law would make subversion,
and again, in English,
that's the word they're
using, subversion, illegal
and permit Beijing
to permanently station
security police in Hong Kong,
Jimmy Lai, this is you writing last month
in the New York Times,
quote, I'm quoting you,
"After the National
Security Law is enacted
"we will be able to say only
"what the Chinese government tolerates.
Every sentence, every word
will carry the risk of
punishment," close quote.
Now, explain that when the other side
is saying, "No, no, no, it's
a National Security Law.
"Only when the security of
the country is threatened,
"will this law come into effect."
And Jimmy Lai says,
"Nonsense, it's every word
"and every sentence."
Explain, Jimmy.
- Well, the National Security Law,
is a very obvious example
of CCP's disrespect for law.
They, by imposing the
National Security Law,
by passing the basic law
and the Hong Kong Legislative Council,
they are tearing up the basic
law, in front of the world.
How can we trust what they say?
It's very obvious
that they have totally,
no respect for law.
So this National Security Law
will supersede the rule of law here,
also, we will destroy Hong Kong
as an international
financial center status
because we follow the rule
of law, they will not.
People doing business, will not
have protections by the law.
They will have to bribe the officials
who have power over them.
So Hong Kong, will turn into the same
as China, plagued by corruption.
And also without the rule of law,
there's no mutual trust
in the financial business,
which transects millions,
or billions of borrowers, in seconds.
Without the rule of law
and the destruction of the mutual trust,
the financial center is totally destroyed.
And as a media person,
it's impossible for media to survive
because whatever we say, can be sedition,
can be suppression, can
be anything they name it.
So it's totally taking over the Hong Kong,
into the Chinese system
by the National Security Law.
That is a death knell
of Hong Kong, for sure.
- So Jimmy, you argue then
that this National Security Law
would not only destroy your freedoms,
but your prosperity.
- Right
- Now, let me quote to you,
I'm going to mispronounce his name
because I don't speak Chinese,
but I'm going to quote to you Robert Ng,
the chairman of Sino Land,
which is a huge development
company in Hong Kong.
Quote, "The legislation
will protect lives, property
"and public safety.
"When society is stable,
"there will be
opportunities," close quote.
So here's the argument.
Jimmy, calm down, trust Beijing.
Yes, they're not Democrats in Beijing,
they're not liberal Democrats,
they're not going to rule Hong Kong
the way Britain ruled Hong Kong,
but they are responsible for
a period of economic growth
that has lifted half a billion
people out of poverty into
something that the Western
world would recognize
as the middle class.
They are intent on stability
in the name of prosperity.
And your fellow business
tycoons in Hong Kong
are saying, "Jimmy, stop this.
"We need stability in order to prosper.
"They know what they're doing.
"They've achieved prosperity
for the Mainland."
And how do you respond
to that argument, Jimmy?
- Well first, those tycoons,
they may need to come out
and pledge allegiance to the CCP
so their business's best
interest is protected.
But on the other side, underneath it,
they all are shifting their
money out from Hong Kong.
They're saying that properties,
they're shifting their
money from Hong Kong.
And also, we follow the
rule of law and freedom.
Can prosperity
and the wealth of Hong
Kong people, be protected?
Is China a country good enough
for their prosperity
and wealth to be protected?
Why don't they go over there,
why don't they work there?
How many of the Chinese rich
people are moving their money?
Ask Jack Ma,
ask all the big guys now
has to retreat, has to retire.
Why do they have to retire?
Why do they have to give up the position?
So it's, it's all nonsense.
- It's all nonsense.
Jimmy, when we spoke last October, again,
when you visited the Hoover Institution
in person last October,
the protest movement
that was taking place
in Hong Kong succeeded
in that Carrie Lam, the
chief executive of Hong Kong
withdrew the proposed legislation
that would've permitted
Beijing to extradite people
from Hong Kong to the Mainland.
She withdrew that from the
Hong Kong Legislative Council.
The protest succeeded.
- [Jimmy] Right.
- Now, we have new protests
against the national security legislation,
but this is not a matter for Carrie Lam
or the Hong Kong Legislative Council.
It has been proposed in Beijing
and it will be voted on by the
National Congress in Beijing,
What, in the protest,
what can you, Jimmy Lai
and your fellow protesters,
hope to accomplish this time?
- Well, it's becoming a lot more difficult
because facing PLA is
a little bit different
from facing the police here,
but I don't think people will give up.
You can see that, now, every
day there are protests.
But to be sure, a lot of
people are being intimidated,
especially the recent arrest
of the 15 prominent dissidents
including Martin Lee,
who's 81 years old.
He is our grandfather of
the democratic movement.
All this exercise
is an intimidation to intimidate
the moderate Hong Kong people
who go out to demonstrate
and protest, to isolate
those radical young people
who are more radical,
confronting the police,
so all they are doing, is to suppress us.
Further, they never want
to solve the problem,
they never want to look
at why people resist.
The only way they know, is to suppress.
So if we just surrender,
we will lose the rule of law,
we will lose the freedom,
we will lose everything.
I'm sure a lot of Hong Kong
people will not give up.
Of course, there are two choices
for Hong Kong people now,
or three choices.
One is to emigrate.
A lot of people are doing that
and in response to this,
the British government
is considering to give us the right,
a vote in England for
almost three million people.
- Three million--
- Which is, three million.
This is very good.
But for those who stay,
some of them, like us, will have to fight.
Some of them will have to give up
and become subservient
to the Chinese rule.
So this is the fact we are facing.
Whether we can succeed,
will not depend on just
our resistance alone.
We leave the U.S.,
when we leave the outside world,
especially U.S., to help us
by sanctioning China
because China, now, is at the worst
of its situation during the 40 years
of their opening, the economic
opening, or market opening.
Now is the best time to sanction China,
to force China to behave better
and--
- Jimmy?
- To succumb to the value
of the world in dealing
with the outside world
so the world will have peace.
- Jimmy, let me ask you,
we've talked about China and Hong Kong.
Let me ask you to give me, as an American,
an education in the correct way to think
about what China is doing
not only in Hong Kong, but
in the rest of the world.
Here are items from recent weeks.
We now know that China,
the government, Beijing
was aware of the coronavirus
before it informed the rest of the world,
that it shut down internal flights
from Wuhan to other places in China,
but permitted flights from
Wuhan to the rest of the world,
international flights, permitting
the virus to be carried
throughout the rest of
the world, item one.
Item two.
In recent weeks, China
has sent some 10,000 troops
across the disputed border
into India, not just a temporary raid.
They have set up bases inside territory
that India claims.
Item three.
Chinese forces have
recently buzzed the median,
or dividing line, in the Taiwan Strait
and they have sent fighters
to fly over, very tightly,
over the border of Taiwan.
A final item, we could go
on and on with these items,
but final item, China has used
the World Health Organization
to suppress efforts by Taiwan,
which has proven very successful
in controlling the coronavirus,
the World Health Organization,
under pressure from China,
we now know, refused to permit Taiwan
to share its techniques for
controlling the coronavirus
with the rest of the world.
So, we have China, newly aggressive,
newly assertive.
Again, I come to the question, why now?
- Well, I think the coronavirus,
it's just the attitude of a
natural hostility to the world.
They don't treat the world as partners.
They treat the world as enemies.
Not that they have planned
to destroy the world,
I don't think they are so vicious,
but just the instinct
is not to think about the world
but about the way that they
conduct their business.
Because deception and cover-up
is a natural way of
conducting their own business.
I think the world
should demand China to give its people
the freedom of speech.
So when the coronavirus
was first discover by Dr. Li Wenliang
it could be aired on the social media
and the whole disaster of the
coronavirus would be avoided.
Just because of lack of freedom of speech,
the world is suffering,
all the lives, the job.
The wealth destruction
is more effective to
change China's behavior,
than any sanction.
Points to point out.
It's just a very natural
reaction of Xi Jinping.
The more precarious his position is,
the greater he has to pose
himself as a strong man
to threaten the world,
to show to the Chinese people
how strong China is.
You have to remember
Xi Jinping has not achieved anything.
Whether the Belt and Road
the 2025,
I don't remember how they call it.
It's a scheme to take
over the technology--
- To achieve technological--
- Of the world.
- Pre-eminence by 2025.
- Pre-eminence, yeah.
Or to eliminate poverty by this year
and the destruction of the
relationship with the U.S.
All he has done has failed.
So, but he has to face
in 1922, the People's Congress
to reaffirm he's president in life.
That's why he has now to show belligerence
to what China, and also Hong Kong,
try to have these two places
in his grip as achievement
to show to the People's Congress, by then.
All this is the reaction
of his weak position.
Now you can see that he
and Li Keqiang,
you know, the prime minister--
- Yes.
- Are open power struggle.
Li Keqiang said that China,
or in private, China
is still a poor country
because we still have
600 million earning 1,000 renminbi,
which is 130,
$140 a month.
And also
because so many people lost their job,
Li Keqiang wants the idea
of hawker economy,
allow people to sell on the street
to make ends meet in this crisis.
Xi Jinping came out
immediately to clamp down on it
so it shows to you,
I think the power struggle is surfacing,
it also means that the
power struggle underneath it
is an epic magnitude.
He's operant, he's also taking advantage
of this crisis in China,
try to pull him down.
- I see.
- You will soon see some
big changes in China.
- Jimmy, let me, this is fascinating.
Let me summarize this
and you tell me if I have it right
or if I've made a mistake.
Xi Jinping has to go before
the People's Congress in 2022,
in two years--
- Right.
- To have his position as president,
for life, reaffirmed.
- Yeah.
- The Belt and Road Initiative,
the international
initiative, is faltering,
the coronavirus management was a fiasco,
an embarrassment to the country,
the economy is faltering,
or weaker than it has
been in 25 or 30 years,
and for that very reason,
so he's weaker than he appears to us.
And your judgment is he
wants to crush Hong Kong
so that at least he can go
to the Congress in two years
with something in his hands.
Is that correct?
- Right.
And Taiwan.
- And Taiwan or--
- And Taiwan also.
- So this brings me,
let's discuss China and
the United States now.
I asked you to give me an
education as an American.
Now I wanna know what you hope we do.
Secretary of State Mike
Pompeo, late last month,
certified to Congress
that Hong Kong is no longer
autonomous from China.
As you well know,
the law requires the secretary of state
to re-certify Hong Kong's
independence from China.
This year, he could not do so.
I'm quoting Secretary of State Pompeo.
"This decision gives me no pleasure,
"but sound policy-making requires
a recognition of reality,"
close quote.
All right.
Under American law,
that was the first step.
Secretary of State Pompeo
tells Congress, Hong Kong
is no longer autonomous from China.
President Trump now faces
a number of options,
including revoking
special trade arrangements
with Hong Kong.
Now, let me quote you writing again
in the New York Times last month,
"There are other ways to
retaliate against China."
You hope, as I take it,
I'd like to ask you to explain this,
you hope the president
does not revoke the
special trade arrangements
with Hong Kong.
Explain that Jimmy, please.
- Well, not yet,
because we have to keep the
residual value of Hong Kong
so at least the Chinese is
totally hopeless about Hong Kong
and just destroy it.
I think the U.S. should sanction
China, should punish China
before that's hopeless.
If China doesn't keep up on
the National Security Law,
Hong Kong is destroyed anyway.
To revoke the Hong Kong act or
the Hong Kong special status,
anything, go ahead
because it's meaningless anyway;
Hong Kong is destroyed.
The U.S., especially Donald
Trump, President Trump,
using sanctions and punishment
in stages in his reelection campaign
to punish China,
use action to relieve
the American's pain
and anger
that they suffer during the coronavirus
which was brought over by the Chinese.
I think this is much more effective.
If President Trump can have a strategy,
of a series of sanctions and punishments
in stages in his campaign
to impose on China
so the people respond
to him and support him.
Also, at the same time,
China will have to retreat,
the position of belligerence.
If China doesn't care and go ahead,
Hong Kong is finished anyway.
- You wrote in the New York Times,
so the last thing we should do,
again, I'm summarizing, correct
me if I've got it wrong,
the last thing the United States should do
is eliminate the special trade
arrangements with Hong Kong.
You need those to remain
distinct from China, yourselves.
- Exactly, right.
- If the National
Security Law goes through,
then it doesn't matter what we do
because Hong Kong will be lost.
All right.
- Yeah.
- You wrote the intermediate
sanctions, staged sanctions,
you wrote in the New York Times,
revoking student visas for children
of both Chinese Communist Party, the CCP,
and Hong Kong officials.
We have more than 300,000
Chinese students studying
in this country.
- Right.
- So your argument is that really matters
to the Chinese Communist Party
to have their children study here.
We know who those officials are.
We should send their
kids home, back to China.
Is that correct?
- Right. Right,
But also this is only the initial stage.
I think America should also
freeze the bank account
of those corrupt officials
in the U.S. and universe.
There are a lot of money
in those bank accounts.
And I think those who are
involved in this oppression
should personally feel
the pain of their action.
- All right, so your argument,
you said a moment ago,
that your fellow tycoons in Hong Kong
are moving money out.
- Right.
- They're not the only ones.
Also senior communist
officials from the Mainland
have money in this country.
- They have more money.
- We know who they are--
- And in the West--
- We have frozen accounts
of Russian officials,
we've frozen accounts of Iranians,
and Jimmy Lai is saying,
"Freeze the Chinese
communist accounts as well."
Is that correct?
- Exactly, exactly.
This will have a great effect.
Let them personally feel
the pain of their actions.
- All right.
And then Jimmy, you also write
that just as Britain
is now considering, effectively, inviting
three million of you to live in Britain,
Prime Minister Boris Johnson wrote a piece
in a prominent British newspaper
in which he spoke of granting
three million people, visas
that would lead,
ultimately, to citizenship.
It's a breathtaking gesture.
Well, it's more than a
gesture, he's serious about it.
You would like to see this
country do that as well?
- Well, I think this country,
because the BNO holders of Hong Kong
are mostly old people like us, born
before the British left,
but most of the young people who were born
after the British left
are those who are fighting in the street,
they are the priority
that we should help and save.
I think what the American
government can do
is to give the permit
for these young people to
go to the U.S. to study
and to have a Green Card.
I was saying the same thing
to the British government.
I think the U.S. can help a lot
if you allow the visa
to those young people
to stay in the U.S.,
who are not the BNO holders.
- BNO is the British, I don't honestly,
I don't remember--
- National,
yeah, the British National--
- They have some rights
because they were born
before the British left.
- Yeah.
- That's essentially
what it means.
- Exactly, yeah.
All right.
So Jimmy, I wanna go back to this.
The way the press has
covered it in this country,
honestly, reading about
this, it looked to me
as though the new National Security Law
was already done.
You're saying, no.
- Exactly.
- The situation is still fluid.
Xi Jinping is under pressure
from the party itself.
There are power struggles taking place.
If the United States acts with
a certain degree of resolve
and a certain degree of speed,
this can still be undone.
You truly believe that?
- Well, maybe they impose it,
but they don't execute it.
If anything happens in China,
things will change in Hong Kong.
I'm sure a lot of the
Chinese top officials
are not in agreement
with Xi Jinping's protocols.
I don't think that this is
the right thing for China also
at this troubled time.
Hong Kong is actually appraised
that can facilitate the financial
and trading to the world,
to facilitate the recovery
of China's recovery.
- So to put it crudely,
you and Hong Kong still
have cards to play.
China's economy is weak.
If Xi Jinping crushes Hong Kong,
he'll be harming the Mainland too.
Is that correct?
- Yeah.
Because Hong Kong is the place
that can have like a channel
outside to the world financially,
and in the trade-wise.
So now China is in such
a critical position.
Why do you want to kill Hong Kong
which is laying golden eggs,
which is a goose laying golden eggs?
- Right.
- Why this time?
You need a Hong Kong the most.
Why they want to kill Hong Kong now?
I just can't understand this.
- I see.
Jimmy, one more--
- If the world sanctions China
Hong Kong is the only way China
can have access to the
world finance and trade.
- I see.
Jimmy, one more question about Hong Kong
and the United States, specifically.
In this country, we've
had, as you know very well,
in the last couple of
weeks, we've had protests
and riots, destruction,
here in the United States.
Chinese state media has promoted coverage
of these protests and riots
with hashtags, such as U.S. riots.
And these have received
something like one point
more than 1.5 billion views
on Chinese social media.
And here in the United States,
the Chinese have been arguing
that if American police
have the right to deal
with American protestors,
then surely, China has the right to deal
with protestors in Hong Kong.
What effect is this,
these protests, this
unrest, this destruction
that we've seen in this country
over the last couple of weeks,
going to have on morale in Hong Kong?
- Nothing.
- Really?
- Yeah, nothing.
The police here,
the police while here, are
being praised by China.
The police, while in there in the U.S.
the police who manslaughter
Mr. Floyd are being persecuted.
Even those three other policemen,
together with him, are being persecuted.
And the Hong Kong young people
did not loot the shops, burn the cars.
We were--
- In other words, the Chinese,
the Chinese propaganda in Hong Kong,
Chinese propaganda misrepresenting
what is taking place in this country,
in Hong Kong--
- [Jimmy] Definitely.
- It has no effect.
- No, no effect
because Hong Kong people
know that that's rubbish.
- All right, all right.
- Because even your president
cannot send troops to suppress
the riot, constitutionally
he's allowed to do so.
- Right.
- You have the rule of law
and those who loot the shops
and burn the cars
are not the protestors,
those are criminals.
- Right.
- The Hong Kong people
understand that.
- All right.
That's (scoffs), this is
all reassuring, Jimmy.
Jimmy, I have three, three
more questions, if I may.
- Thank you.
- You have a company to run
and a democracy movement to encourage
so I don't want to take your
entire morning in Hong Kong.
- No, no, it's okay.
- You wrote, not long ago,
"It didn't have to be this way."
How could it be?
What is the hope?
If everything went just the way Jimmy Lai,
when he closes his eyes
and hopes for the best,
what would it look like,
what would Hong Kong look like
and what role would
China have in the world
if things went well instead of badly?
- Well, if China, accept
the value of the world
and become a partner
of the world community,
China definitely is going
to be the greatest country
and the most power country in the world.
Now, Xi Jinping destroyed it.
Xi Jinping once said that, "Anybody
"who is friendly with America,
"has become prosperous."
And what China did in the
last 30-something years,
friendly with the U.S.,
has also prospered.
But Xi Jinping just did
not take this advice
and tried to dominate the world,
therefore, destroyed the position
and the relationship with the world,
especially with America.
America's reaction to China
is actually the reaction to
China's imposing its value,
its opposing value, to the world,
more than just trade problems.
They just don't follow the rules.
If they don't follow the rules,
the world will not have peace considering
how big and powerful China is.
So I think the problem
is with Xi Jinping now.
If now, China
is never in such a problem,
such a big, a really critical situation
is the economy while the last quarter
is 6.8% minus growth,
which should be more.
The coming year should be worse
because China hasn't spent much money
to support the enterprises and employ.
So the situation can only
get worse, not better.
This is the time--
- [Peter] Jimmy?
to force China to change
when they are at their worse.
- Jimmy, you wrote on Twitter last month,
actually, you said it
yourself a moment ago here,
"Under the clamp down, Hong Kong people
"have two choices.
"Emigrate or stay to fight to the end."
- Right
- Jimmy,
the regime has put
pressure on your business,
they've forced advertisers to pull back,
your house has been fire bombed,
your family has been threatened,
you're under arrest and standing trial.
Why doesn't Jimmy Lai
just accept Boris Johnson's offer,
buy yourself a nice house in Knightsbridge
or Kensington, and leave?
The world would honor you
for what you've already done.
What's next for Jimmy Lai?
- Fight on, fight on.
Now's the time, not the time for safety.
This is a time for sacrifice.
I came here with one daughter,
all I have, wonderful family,
a Mrs.,
with good health.
All this, this place gave me.
I can't leave.
I will have to fight to the last day.
I'm not afraid.
- Last question.
Once again, this is something
you wrote last month
in the New York Times,
"Fighting for Hong Kong
"is about bringing stability to the world
"so that the West can protect
its own free way of life
"and the rest of us can
have a fighting chance
"at that. too."
- Right.
- Last question.
We've talked about what
you hope the administration
in this country does.
- Right.
- What would you like to
say to the American people?
- I think the American people
are the most important.
If the American people
recognize how dangerous China is
and voice your support for Hong Kong
and your opposition to China,
your politician will
react by saving Hong Kong
which is the beach-head of your value,
you're saving the value
of the free world.
Without our insistent
on safeguarding the
value of the free world,
China will take over
the peace of this world
and destroy the lifestyle, the life
that we all share.
- Jimmy Lai, thank you.
- Thank you, Peter.
- For Uncommon Knowledge,
the Hoover Institution
and Fox Nation. I'm Peter Robinson.
(uplifting music)
