>>> HELLO AND WELCOME TO ABC
NEWS LIVE.
WE'RE HEARING FOR THE FIRST TIME
FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP'S NIECE
SINCE THE PUBLICATION OF HER NEW
MEMOIR, "TOO MUCH AND NEVER
ENOUGH."
I SAT DOWN AND SPOKE WITH HER
ABOUT HER UNCLE, AND HER BELIEF
THAT HE, QUOTE, UTTERLY
INCAPABLE OF LEADING THIS
COUNTRY AND WHY IT'S DANGEROUS
IN HER VIEW TO ALLOW HIM TO DO
SO.
HERE'S MY CONVERSATION WITH MARY
TRUMP.
YOU'LL ONLY SEE THIS CUT OF THE
INTERVIEW ABC NEWS LIVE.
>> "TOO MUCH AND NEVER ENOUGH,"
EXPLAIN WHY YOU CHOSE THE TITLE?
>> IN THINKING ABOUT MY FAMILY,
IT APPLIES BECAUSE PEOPLE
ASSOCIATE MONEY WITH HIM,
UNDERSTANDABLY.
FOR MY GRANDFATHER IN
PARTICULAR, THERE WAS NO SUCH
THING AS HAVING ENOUGH MONEY.
SO I WAS THINKING ABOUT WHAT
THAT MEANT AND ALSO THINKING
ABOUT THE PSYCHOLOGY BEHIND HIM
AND HIS CHILDREN, I WAS VERY
CURIOUS ABOUT THE FOUNDATIONAL
ISSUES THAT DONALD AND HIS
SIBLINGS LIVED THROUGH.
AND I REALIZED WHEN REALLY
CAREFULLY EXAMINING THE KIND OF
CHILDHOODS THEY HAD,
PARTICULARLY DONALD AND MY
FATHER, THERE WAS THIS VERY REAL
SENSE FOR DONALD WHAT HE WAS
QUITE YOUNG THAT THERE JUST
WASN'T ENOUGH LOVE, ATTENTION,
SUPPORT.
AND FOR MY FATHER WHO WAS QUITE
A BIT OLDER, THERE WAS TOO MUCH
ATTENTION.
YOU KNOW, HE WAS THE HEIR
APPARENT.
MY GRANDFATHER FOCUSED ON HIM,
WAS EXTRAORDINARILY HARD ON HIM.
SO BECAUSE THERE WAS SUCH AN ODD
DEGREE OF DIFFERENCE IN TERMS OF
WHAT THE CHILDREN RECEIVED,
AGAIN, PARTICULARLY THE TWO
BROTHERS, FOR DONALD THERE COULD
NEVER BE ENOUGH TO COMPENSATE
FOR THE LOSS OF WHAT HE
EXPERIENCED AS A CHILD, AND FOR
MY FATHER, THERE WAS ALWAYS TOO
MUCH OF THE WRONG THING.
AND THAT IMPACTED EVERYBODY IN
THE FAMILY.
>> ALL BEGINS WITH YOUR
GRANDFATHER.
>> OH, ABSOLUTELY, ABSOLUTELY.
>> YOU'RE SAYING HE'S A
SOCIOPATH.
>> YES.
>> WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?
>> HE HAD NO EMPATHY.
HE WAS INCREDIBLY DRIVEN IN A
WAY THAT TURNED OTHER PEOPLE,
INCLUDING HIS CHILDREN, HIS
WIFE, INTO PAWNS TO BE USED TO
HIS OWN ENDS.
IF SOMEBODY COULD BE OF SERVICE
TO HIM, THEN HE WOULD USE THEM.
IF THEY COULDN'T BE, HE EXCISED
THEM.
IN MY FATHER'S CASE, TRAGICALLY,
HE WAS NOT OF USE.
HE WAS THE WRONG PERSON.
HE WAS THE WRONG SON.
AND MY DAD NEVER RECOVERED FROM
THAT.
AND MY GRANDFATHER ESSENTIALLY
NEEDED TO GET RID OF HIM.
>> YOU SAY YOUR GRANDFATHER
DESTROYED BOTH YOUR FATHER
BECAUSE HE WASN'T THE PERSON
YOUR GRANDFATHER WANTED HIM TO
BE.
DONALD TRUMP IS PRESIDENT OF THE
UNITED STATES, YET YOU SAY THE
GRANDFATHER DESTROYED HIM AS
WELL?
>> YES.
HE WENT ABOUT IT DIFFERENTLY
BECAUSE, UNFORTUNATELY, FOR
DONALD, HE COULD BE OF USE TO MY
GRANDFATHER.
IT WASN'T AS SIMPLE AS THAT, OF
COURSE.
DONALD HAD MANY YEARS OF
WATCHING MY FATHER BE THE WRONG
ONE, BEHAVING DIFFERENTLY, NOT
BEING ACCEPTED FOR WHO HE WAS.
AND IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO KNOW WHO
DONALD MIGHT HAVE BEEN UNDER
DIFFERENT CIRCUMSTANCES AND WITH
DIFFERENT PARENTS.
BUT CLEARLY HE LEARNED THE
LESSON FROM WATCHING HIS ALMOST
8-YEAR-OLD BROTHER BE PUNISHED
FOR BEING KIND, FOR BEING
GENEROUS, FOR BEING SENSITIVE,
FOR HAVING INTERESTS OUTSIDE OF
WHAT MY GRANDFATHER THOUGHT WAS
ACCEPTABLE.
YOU KNOW, HE LOVED TO HANG OUT
WITH HIS FRIENDS.
HE LOVED TO BOAT AND FISH AND
FLY.
BY THE TIME HE GRADUATED FROM
COLLEGE, HE HAD -- HIS PRIVATE
AND HIS PROFESSIONAL PILOT'S
LICENSE.
>> HE WASN'T A KILLER.
>> HE WAS NOT A KILLER.
AND SHOCKINGLY, THAT WAS A BAD
THING.
AND DONALD LEARNED THAT LESSON
AND HE ESSENTIALLY HAD TO
SACRIFICE WHATEVER GOODNESS
THERE MAY HAVE BEEN ONCE,
WHATEVER CAPACITIES FOR
EXPERIENCING THE FULL RANGE OF
HUMAN EMOTION TO MY GRANDFATHER.
AND ON THE SURFACE OF THINGS,
YES, HE'S BEEN SUCCESSFUL.
HOWEVER YOU WANT TO DEFINE THAT
TERM, CERTAINLY IN MATERIAL
TERMS AND IN TERMS OF HIS
CURRENT POSITION, BUT AT WHAT
COST?
AND I WOULD SUGGEST IT WAS AT
THE COST OF HIM AND SADLY NOW
ALL OF US.
>> WHO DID HE LEARN TO BECOME
FOR HIS DAD?
>> HE LEARNED TO BECOME THE
KILLER.
YOU MENTIONED THE MAN WHO NEEDS
TO SUCCEED AT ALL COSTS, WHO
RECOGNIZES THAT OTHER PEOPLE ARE
EXPENDABLE, WHO DOES NOT NEED TO
TAKE RESPONSIBILITY, WHO WILL DO
ANYTHING TO GET ATTENTION,
FINANCIAL REWARDS, AND TO WIN.
>> YOU WRITE THAT HE KNOWS DEEP
DOWN THAT HE IS NOTHING OF WHAT
HE CLAIMS TO BE, HE KNOWS HE'S
NEVER BEEN LOVED.
DO HIS CHILDREN LOVE HIM?
>> I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S TRUE.
I DON'T KNOW MY COUSINS VERY
WELL.
THEY'RE MUCH YOUNG THAN I AM.
AND I GUESS IT ALSO DEPENDS ON
WHAT THAT MEANS.
>> WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO YOU?
>> TO ME, LOVE MEANS BEING
CONNECTED TO ANOTHER HUMAN BEING
IN A VERY DEEP WAY, BEING ABLE
TO SHARE THINGS WITH THEM AND
TRUST THEM.
IN TERMS OF PARENT FOR A CHILD,
IT MEANS SACRIFICING FOR THEM
AND ACCEPTING THEM NO MATTER
WHAT AND NEVER PUTTING THEM IN A
POSITION TO LIE FOR YOU OR CHEAT
FOR YOU OR TAKE FROM YOU.
AND I DON'T KNOW THAT MOST
PEOPLE IN MY FAMILY UNDERSTAND
THAT.
>> YOU PAINT THE PICTURE OF A
FAMILY THAT IS, I GUESS IN YOUR
WORDS, MALIGNANTLY
DYSFUNCTIONAL.
HOW SO?
>> FROM VERY EARLY ON, THE KIDS
WERE SEPARATED, NOT PHYSICALLY,
BUT EMOTIONALLY AND
PSYCHOLOGICALLY.
THEY WERE NEVER ABLE TO REALLY
COUNT ON EACH OTHER IN WAYS THAT
MATTERED.
THEY WERE IN COMPETITION WITH
EACH OTHER FOR RESOURCES THAT
FELT OVER TIME SCARCE, WHICH IS
ABSURD.
>> DONALD FIGURED OUT WHAT HIS
FATHER WANTED?
>> YES.
>> HIS MOTHER, NOT SO MUCH.
>> NO, NO.
SHE WAS IN SOME WAYS VERY MUCH A
CREATURE OF THAT GENERATION.
THE GENDER DIVIDE IN MY FAMILY
WAS STARK, EVEN FOR THE '40s AND
'50s.
SHE HAD VERY LITTLE TO DO WITH
THE BOYS, ALMOST AS OF THE BOYS
WERE MY GRANDFATHER'S PURVIEW
AND THE GIRLS WERE HERS.
I THINK FROM QUITE EARLY ON
DONALD JUST DIDN'T EXPECT MUCH
FROM HER.
HE KNEW, I THINK, BY THE TIME HE
WAS SENT TO NEW YORK MILITARY
ACADEMY THAT SHE WASN'T GOING TO
STAND UP FOR HIM.
AFTER THAT VERY TRAGIC YEAR WHEN
SHE WAS QUITE ILL AND
INACCESSIBLE, HE WAS ONLY 2 1/2,
I DON'T THINK THE RIFT WAS EVER
REPAIRED.
>> YOU DESCRIBE HER AS BEING
MORE OR LESS AT HER WITS END
WITH DONALD BEFORE HE WAS SENT
TO THE MILITARY ACADEMY, HOW SO?
>> HE DIDN'T LISTEN.
HE DIDN'T RESPECT HER.
I BELIEVE THAT BECAUSE OF THAT
INITIAL RIFT, WHICH WASN'T HER
FAULT, YOU KNOW, SHE WAS
EXTRAORDINARILY ILL, SHE WAS IN
AND OUT OF THE HOSPITAL FOR SIX
TO 12 MONTHS.
AND AFTER THAT I DON'T BELIEVE
THAT SHE WAS ATTENDED TO
PROPERLY.
YOU KNOW, HER PHYSICAL
WELL-BEING WAS PERHAPS
ADDRESSED, BUT HER PSYCHOLOGICAL
WELL-BEING WAS NOT.
AND FOR WHATEVER REASON, SHE WAS
NOT ABLE TO REPAIR WHAT THAT
ABSENCE HAD BROUGHT.
SO AS HE GREW OLDER, I THINK HE
DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO RELATE TO
HER, COULDN'T TRUST HER.
AN EX-COMMUNICATION TO BOARDING
SCHOOL WAS PROBABLY THE LAST
SCHOOL.
>> I INTERVIEW HIS MOTHER AND
SHE SAID HE WAS A WARM, AND
GENEROUS PERSON, IT WAS HIS
FATHER WHO WAS THE HARD ONE.
BUT GOING TO THE WHITE HOUSE IN
2017, NOTICING WHAT'S ON THE
DESK BEHIND THE PRESIDENT.
>> YES.
YEAH.
IT WAS PRETTY STRIKING.
TO BE HONEST, I DIDN'T NOTICE
UNTIL I SAW THE PICTURE OF MY
BROTHER HAD TAKEN OF ME WHILE I
WAS SITTING BY THE DESK.
THERE WAS MY GRANDFATHER RIGHT
OVER MY SHOULDER.
SO I, OF COURSE, HEARD THE
CONVERSATION THAT DONALD HAD
WITH MARY ANN, MAYBE YOU SHOULD
GET A PICTURE OF MOM ON YOUR
DESK AND HIS SAYING, OH, YEAH,
SOMEBODY GET ME A PICTURE OF
MOM.
BUT IT WASN'T UNTIL I SAW THAT
IMAGE OF MY GRANDFATHER HOVERING
IN THE BACKGROUND THAT I
REALIZED HOW STRIKING IT WAS
THAT MY GRANDMOTHER WAS NOWHERE
TO BE SEEN, NOT EVEN AN
AFTERTHOUGHT REALLY.
ALTHOUGH A PICTURE WAS GOTTEN
AND I BELIEVE IT'S STILL THERE
NOW.
>> TELL ME ABOUT YOUR FATHER AT
HIS BEST.
>> UNFORTUNATELY, I CAN ONLY DO
THAT THROUGH OTHER PEOPLE.
BY THE TIME I WAS BORN, HE WAS
QUITE ILL.
>> ALCOHOL?
>> YES,.
WHICH, YOU KNOW, CAUSED ALL
OTHER KINDS OF ILLNESSES TOO.
AND BECAUSE MY FAMILY FOR
REASONS THAT ARE RATHER
COMPLICATED, WE'RE VERY INVESTED
IN PORTRAYING MY FATHER AS A
LOSER, SOMEBODY WHO DIDN'T TOE
THE PARTY LINE, SOMEBODY WHO
BETRAYED BY GRANDFATHER BY NOT
GOING INTO THE BUSINESS, AND
DOING THE ENTIRELY IRRESPONSIBLE
THING OF BECOMING A PROFESSIONAL
PILOT FOR TWA AT THE DAWN OF THE
JET AGE.
I, MUCH TO MY SHAME, DIDN'T
UNDERSTAND WHAT HE HAD
ACCOMPLISHED.
I WAS OFTEN ASHAMED OF HIM, NOT
REALIZING THAT THAT HE HAD NO
SUPPORT IN THE FAMILY AND WAS
TREATED AS SOMEBODY WHO WAS
DAMAGED BEYOND REPAIR AND WASN'T
WORTH INVESTING IN IN ANY WAY,
EMOTIONALLY OR OTHERWISE.
>> YOU WRITE DONALD FOLLOWING
THE LEAD OF MY GRANDFATHER IN AN
ACTION OF HIS SICKLES DESTROYED
MY FATHER.
>> YEAH.
THAT WAS HARD TO WRITE, MUCH
HARDER TO WITNESS PARTIALLY
BECAUSE MY DAD AT HIS BEST,
WHICH UNFORTUNATELY WAS IN THE
'60s, THE EARLY '60s, WAS -- I
MEAN, NOT THAT IT MATTERS, BUT
HE WAS AN EXTRAORDINARILY
HANDSOME MAN.
BUT HE WAS ALSO CHARMING BUT IN
A DEEP WAY, KIND, GENEROUS,
FIERCELY LOYAL, AND BELOVED.
I'VE BEEN IN TOUCH WITH HIS
FRIENDS WHO HAVEN'T SEEN HIM
SINCE COLLEGE OR EVEN BEFORE
THAT, AND THEY REMEMBER HIM AS
THE MOST WONDERFUL HUMAN BEING
THEY EVER MET.
THEY REMEMBER THE WONDERFUL
TIMES THEY HAD TOGETHER.
HE WOULD PUT THEM IN HIS CESSNA
AND FLY THEM TO GO FISHING OUT
EAST TO MONTAUK.
IT'S EXTRAORDINARY TO HEAR
ALMOST 50 YEARS LATER, 60 YEARS
LATER WHAT AN INDELIBLE
IMPRESSION THEY MADE UPON HIM
AND HOW FONDLY THEY STILL
REMEMBER HIM.
>> YOU SAY THAT WAS A HARD
SENTENCE TO WRITE.
I LEFT OUT THE NEXT SENTENCE.
>> OKAY.
>> WHICH IS?
>> I'M SORRY, I DON'T REMEMBER.
>> I CAN'T LET HIM DESTROY MY
COUNTRY.
>> AH, YES.
I SHOULD REMEMBER THAT.
THAT SOUNDS PRETTY ARROGANT, SO
LET ME EXPLAIN WHAT I MEAN.
I FEEL AS I WRITE IN THE BOOK,
THAT THERE ARE SO MANY PARALLELS
BETWEEN THE CIRCUMSTANCES IN
WHICH MY FAMILY OPERATED AND DID
IN WHICH THIS COUNTRY IS NOW
OPERATING.
I SAW FIRSTHAND WHAT FOCUSING ON
THE WRONG THINGS, ELEVATING THE
WRONG PEOPLE CAN DO.
YOU KNOW, THE COLLATERAL DAMAGE
THAT CAN BE CREATED BY ALLOWING
SOMEBODY TO LIVE THEIR LIVES
WITHOUT ACCOUNTABILITY.
AND IT IS STRIKING TO SEE THAT
CONTINUING NOW ON A MUCH GRANDER
SCALE.
WHAT I WAS GETTING AT THERE IS
THAT IF I CAN DO ANYTHING TO
CHANGE THE NARRATIVE AND TO TELL
THE TRUTH, I NEED TO DO THAT
BECAUSE I DON'T BELIEVE THE
AMERICAN PEOPLE HAD THE ENTIRE
TRUTH FOUR YEARS AGO.
>> WHY DIDN'T YOU WRITE THE BOOK
FOUR YEARS AGO?
>> I THOUGHT LONG AND HARD ABOUT
SAYING SOMETHING.
I HAD -- A BOOK WASN'T IN MY
HEAD AT THAT TIME, AND HONESTLY,
IT TOOK ME A WHILE TO TAKE IT
SERIOUSLY, TO TAKE THE
ELECTION -- HIS PART IN IT
SERIOUSLY.
SO EVEN IF I HAD THOUGHT OF
WRITING A BOOK, THERE WOULDN'T
HAVE BEEN TIME, BUT I DID THINK
OF SPEAKING OUT, KNOWING THAT IT
WOULD HAVE BEEN QUITE RISKY TO
DO.
AND THEN I REALIZED THERE
LITERALLY WAS NOTHING I COULD
SAY AT THE TIME.
NOTHING STUCK.
YOU KNOW, HE INSULTED A GOLD
STAR FAMILY.
HE CALLED UPON PEOPLE AT THE
REPUBLICAN NATIONAL CONVENTION
TO COME UP WITH A DEFENSE
AGAINST HILLARY CLINTON.
BY THE TIME THE "ACCESS
HOLLYWOOD" TAPE ROLLED AROUND, I
KNEW IF I SAID ANYTHING, I WOULD
HAVE BEEN PAINTED AS A
DISGRUNTLED, DISINHERITED NIECE
WHO JUST WANTED HER 15 MINUTES,
WHICH OBVIOUSLY BEING SAID ABOUT
ME NOW, BUT IT WOULDN'T HAVE
MADE --
>> THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THE WHITE
HOUSE SAYS.
THEY SAY IT'S THE A BOOK OF
FALSEHOODS, BASICALLY YOU'RE
LYING FOR MONEY.
>> IT MAKES PERFECT SENSE THAT
THEY WOULD SAY THAT.
PROJECTION IS A POWERFUL THING.
BUT IF I HAD WANTED MONEY OR
REVENGE, I WOULD HAVE DONE THIS
TEN YEARS AGO WHEN IT WAS
INFINITELILY SAFER, AND HE WAS
STILL A PUBLIC FIGURE, BUT
NEITHER ONE OF THOSE THINGS
INTERESTED ME.
I WAS LIVING MY LIFE.
I WAS BEYOND -- WELL, BEYOND
WHAT HAD HAPPENED 20 YEARS AGO
WITH MY FAMILY.
AND IT WOULD HAVE SERVED NO
PURPOSE OTHER THAN GETTING
REVENGE OR MAYBE MAKING SOME
MONEY.
>> WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THE PEOPLE
WHO SAY AMERICAN KNEW EXACTLY
WHAT THEY WERE DOING WHEN THEY
ELECTED DONALD TRUMP, HE'S KIND
OF AN OPEN BOOK?
WHAT DON'T THEY KNOW?
>> YEAH, I DON'T THINK THAT'S AT
ALL TRUE BECAUSE OUTSIDE OF
NEW YORK, I DON'T THINK PEOPLE
REALLY QUITE UNDERSTOOD THE
TRUTH BEHIND HIS BUSINESS RECORD
AND HIS FINANCIAL FAILURES,
WHICH ARE SERIAL.
BEYOND THAT, IT WAS SUCH A
COMPLEX ELECTION.
THERE WAS SO MUCH GOING ON THAT
I DON'T THINK THE CHOICES WERE
THAT PEOPLE HAD TO MAKE WERE
NECESSARILY BASED ON AN HONEST
APPRAISAL.
THERE WAS SO MUCH INTERFERENCE
FROM SO MANY DIFFERENT SOURCES.
AND THE OTHER THING THAT I THINK
IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO REALIZE
AND THEN I CERTAINLY DIDN'T
REALIZE BEFORE 2016 WAS JUST HOW
ENABLED HE WOULD BE, WHICH MAYBE
I SHOULD'VE SEEN COMING.
>> IT'S ONE OF THE THINGS YOU
WRITE ABOUT.
YOU SAY BASICALLY HE WAS ENABLED
INSTITUTIONALIZED IS YOUR WORD.
WHAT DID YOU MEAN BY THAT?
>> AS I SAY, THERE'S A
THROUGHLINE FROM THE HOUSE TO
TRUMP MANAGEMENT, WHICH WAS MY
GRANDFATHER'S COMPANY IN
BROOKLYN TO THE TRUMP
ORGANIZATION, WHICH MY
GRANDFATHER HELPED DONALD SET UP
IN MANHATTAN TO THE WHITE HOUSE.
AND THOSE ARE ALL SITUATIONS AND
CIRCUMSTANCES IN WHICH DONALD
HAS ALWAYS BEEN PROTECTED AND
CONTINUES TO BE PROTECTED FROM
HIS INADEQUACIES, HIS
INCOMPETENCE, HIS LACK OF
KNOWLEDGE, FROM HIS FAILURES.
AND HE'S ALWAYS HAD SUPPORT OF
MORE POWERFUL PEOPLE.
HE'S ALWAYS HAD PEOPLE
PROTECTING HIM FROM HIS MISTAKES
OR FROM PEOPLE WHO WOULD TRY TO
HOLD HIM TO ACCOUNT, AND HE'S
ALWAYS BEEN AMPLY FINANCED.
SO AS I ALSO WRITE, HOW DO WE
GAGE THIS MAN'S ABILITY TO
FUNCTION IN THE REAL WORLD, AND
THAT TO ME IS QUITE TERRIFYING.
>> YOU'RE A TRAINED CLINICAL
PSYCHOLOGIST.
>> YES, >> YOU'VE COME TO THE
CONCLUSION THAT HE'S A
NARCISSIST?
>> I EXPLICITLY AVOID DIAGNOSING
HIM.
>> DO YOU HAVE ANY QUALMS AS A
PSYCHOLOGISTS LAYING OUT THE
POSSIBLE THINGS THAT HE COULD BE
SUFFERING FROM?
>> NO.
I THINK IT'S USEFUL, ESPECIALLY
SINCE SO MANY OTHER PEOPLE HAVE
DONE IT.
I THOUGHT IT WAS IMPORTANT TO
ADDRESS THAT SINCE IT HAS BEEN
SUCH AN IMPORTANT ISSUE,
ESPECIALLY GIVEN THE GOLDWATER
RULE VERSUS THE DUTY TO WARN
THAT PSYCHOLOGISTS AND
PSYCHIATRISTS HAVE BEEN
GRAPPLING WITH, SO I WANTED TO
ADDRESS THAT WITHOUT EXPLICITLY
SAYING THIS IS HIS DIAGNOSIS.
HE'S NOT MY PATIENT, HE'S NEVER
BEEN MY PATIENT.
I DO, HOWEVER, HAVE ACCESS TO
INFORMATION ABOUT HIM THAT
NOBODY ELSE HAS HAD, SO IT WAS A
LOT EASIER FOR ME TO PUT THE
DIAGNOSES THAT ARE OUT THERE IN
CONTEXT OF HIS DEVELOPMENTAL
HISTORY.
>> BOIL IT DOWN.
WHAT'S THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT
THING YOU THINK THE COUNTRY
NEEDS TO KNOW ABOUT YOUR UNCLE?
>> HE'S UTTERLY INCAPABLE OF
LEADING THIS COUNTRY, AND IT'S
DANGEROUS TO ALLOW HIM TO DO SO.
>> BASED ON WHAT YOU SEE NOW OR
WHAT YOU SAW THEN?
>> BASED ON WHAT I'VE SEEN MY
ENTIRE ADULT LIFE.
>> TALK ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP
BETWEEN YOUR FATHER AND HIS
YOUNGER BROTHER.
>> MY DAD WAS VERY PATIENT WITH
DONALD.
>> HE WAS ABOUT EIGHT YEARS
OLDER.
>> ABOUT, SEVEN OR EIGHT.
SO IT'S A VERY BIG GAP.
THEY WERE IN PRACTICALLY
DIFFERENT GENERATIONS.
THEY DIDN'T TRAVEL IN THE SAME
CIRCLES.
BUT MY DAD, WHEN THEY WERE
YOUNGER, INCLUDED HIM WHEN HE
COULD.
YOU KNOW, ESPECIALLY WHEN DONALD
WAS SORT OF AT LOOSE ENDS WHEN
HE WAS AT FORDHAM AND LIVING AT
THE HOUSE.
DAD WOULD ASK HIS FRIENDS TO
INVITE HIM TO DINNER PARTIES OR
TAKE HIM OUT ON THE BOOT WITH
HIS FRATERNITY BROTHERS FISHING
WHEN DONALD WAS MUCH YOUNGER.
BUT I DON'T BELIEVE THAT THEY --
THEY WEREN'T CLOSE.
AND I THINK AS SOON AS IT BECAME
CLEAR MY FATHER WAS NOT GOING TO
BE ABLE TO CONTINUE WITH TRUMP
MANAGEMENT, THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN
IN THE EARLY '60s, I THINK
DONALD SAW AN OPENING.
AND I WANT TO MAKE SOMETHING
CLEAR.
THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT TO ME.
IT'S NOT THAT MY DAD WASN'T GOOD
AT IT OR HAD NO INTEREST IN
SUCCEEDING MY GRANDFATHER IN HIS
COMPANY.
HE HAD EVERY INTENTION OF BEING
THE NEXT IN LINE AND WORKING
HARD TO MAKE SURE THAT HE WAS
SUCCESSFUL IN HIS FATHER'S
BUSINESS.
MY GRANDFATHER DIDN'T GIVE HIM A
CHANCE AND MADE IT IMPOSSIBLE
FOR MY DAD TO SUCCEED, AND HE
WAS SO MISERABLE THAT HE FINALLY
REALIZED THAT, YOU KNOW, HE
WASN'T GOING TO BE GIVEN
RESPONSIBILITY, HE WASN'T GOING
TO BE GIVEN RESPECT, SO WHY
STAY?
AND THAT'S WHAT HE OPTED TO
APPLY TO TWA, WHICH HE DID, WHO
ACCEPTED HIM RIGHT OFF THE BAT.
AND MOVED HIM TO BOSTON AND HE
FLEW THE LOGAN-LAX ROUTE, WHICH
WAS A BIG DEAL AT THE TIME.
BUT BECAUSE THAT WAS CONSIDERED
A BETRAYAL, IT DIDN'T LAST.
>> A BETRAYAL BY YOUR
GRANDFATHER, PRESIDENT TRUMP
WASN'T A FAN OF IT EITHER.
HE SAYS NOW, AND HE HAS SAID FOR
THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS THAT HE
REGRETS THE PRESSURE HE PUT ON
YOUR FATHER.
>> HE SHOULD, BUT HE ALSO ALSO
FOLLOWING HIS DAD'S SCRIPT.
SO DONALD WAS -- JUST GRADUATED
FROM HIGH SCHOOL, SO I CAN'T
FAULT HIM NECESSARILY FOR DOING
WHAT HIS FATHER ASKED HIM TO DO.
IT WAS TERRIBLE TO HAVE PUT
ANYMORE IN THAT POSITION,
CERTAINLY.
WHAT ISN'T OKAY IS THE
REVISIONIST HISTORY THAT FREDDY
WAS BAD AT IT AND, YOU KNOW, WE
SHOULD'VE -- WE SHOULD HAVE LET
HIM, AS IF DONALD HAD ANY POWER
OVER WHAT MY DAD DID, HE SHOULD
HAVE LET HIM DO WHAT HE WANTED
TO DO, WHICH AGAIN AT THE TIME
THEY CONSIDERED BEING A
GLORIFIED BUS DRIVER.
AND ALSO THE WAY MY DAD IS
PRESENTED, I DON'T THINK THAT
I'VE EVER HEARD DONALD TALK
ABOUT MY DAD AS A PILOT, AS A
MEMBER OF THE AIR FORCE NATIONAL
GUARD, OR ANY OF THAT.
IT'S MORE AS SOMEBODY WHO
COULDN'T HACK IT IN THE FAMILY
AND LOST HIS WAY.
>> YOUR FATHER ONCE DUMPED A
PLATE OF MASHED POTATOES ON
DONALD'S HEAD?
>> YEAH, THAT'S ONE OF OUR
FAVORITE FAMILY STORIES.
THEY WERE REALLY YOUNG KIDS AND
I THINK DONALD WAS MAYBE 7.
ONE OF HIS FAVORITE THINGS TO DO
WAS TORMENT MY UNCLE ROB, WHO
WAS A COUPLE YEARS YOUNGER.
MY GRANDMOTHER WAS COOKING
DINNER AND GETTING THE TABLE
READY, AND DONALD WAS JUST BEING
MERCILESS AND MARY ANN AND MY
DAD COULDN'T GET HIM TO STOP.
AND FINALLY MY DAD HAD NO OTHER
OPTION BUT TO PICK UP A BOWL OF
MASHED POTATOES AND JUST DUMP IT
ON HIS LITTLE BROTHER'S HEAD.
AND IT ENDED THE FIGHT, BUT I
THINK IT ALSO STARTED SOMETHING
BECAUSE DONALD WAS HUMILIATED BY
IT, AS EVIDENCED BY THE WAY HE
REACTS TO THIS STORY NOW.
HE HAS NO SENSE OF HUMOR ABOUT
IT WHATSOEVER.
>> IT CAME UP WHEN YOU WERE AT
THE WHITE HOUSE IN APRIL 2017?
>> YES, YES.
>> WHO BROUGHT IT UP?
>> MY AUNT MARY ANN, YEAH.
WE KNOW THAT HE DOESN'T LIKE THE
STORY, SO I THINK IT WAS A BIT
OF A DIG.
IT'S ALSO A WAY TO REMEMBER MY
DAD IN A WAY THAT'S NOT CHARGED
BECAUSE ALL OF US EXCEPT DONALD
THINK IT'S FUNNY AND SWEET, BUT
HE DID NOT -- HE DOES NOT LIKE
THAT STORY.
>> ELECTION NIGHT 2016, I THINK
YOU TWEETED OUT WORST NIGHT OF
MY LIFE?
>> ONE OF THEM, YEAH.
>> ONE OF THE WORST NIGHTS OF MY
LIFE.
THEN WHY GO TO THE WHITE HOUSE
IN APRIL 2017?
>> FAMILIES ARE VERY
COMPLICATED.
I HAD BEEN ON THE OUTSIDE OF
THIS FAMILY FOR A REALLY LONG
TIME.
AND AFTER MY COUSIN IVANKA'S
WEDDING, FOR REASONS I DON'T
UNDERSTAND, I WAS INVITED TO, MY
AUNT MARY ANN AND I STARTED
TALKING.
AND WE DEVELOPED A RELATIONSHIP
WHICH WE HAD NEVER HAD BEFORE,
QUITE HONESTLY.
AND IT MATTERS TO ME, YOU KNOW?
IT WAS THE FIRST TIME I HAD FELT
PART OF THE FAMILY SINCE I WAS A
KID.
AND SOMEHOW IT WAS VERY EASY FOR
ME TO PUT ASIDE ALL OF THE
THINGS THAT HAVE HAPPENED
PREVIOUS TO THAT.
AND I ENJOYED HER COMPANY.
SHE'S FUNNY.
SHE'S SMART.
AND IT JUST -- WHEN I GOT
INVITED TO HER BIRTHDAY PARTY, I
FELT THAT I SHOULD GO.
>> THIS IS A HARD QUESTION, BUT
I'M GOING TO ASK IT ANYWAY.
IS WRITING THE BOOK AN EXTENSION
OF THE DYSFUNCTION OF THE
FAMILY?
>> PROBABLY.
YOU KNOW, I DIDN'T WRITE IT AS A
FORM OF THERAPY OR ANYTHING LIKE
THAT.
IN FACT, I WOULD HAVE PREFERRED
NOT TO WRITE IT.
IT WAS QUITE DIFFICULT.
AND I SOMETIMES FEEL I WOULD
HAVE BEEN BETTER OFF NOT KNOWING
SOME OF THE THINGS I NOW KNOW.
BUT YEAH, THE BOOK IS ABSOLUTELY
BORN OF THE FAMILY DYSFUNCTION.
YOU KNOW, NOBODY CAN ESCAPE
THAT.
YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY MY
GENERATION WAS LESS AFFECTED
THAN MY FATHER'S, BUT WE'VE BEEN
AFFECTED AND I'M NOT GOING TO
SPEAK FOR ANYBODY ELSE IN MY
GENERATION.
BUT IT HASN'T BEEN EASY AND IT'S
AN INTERESTING QUESTION AND I
THINK YOU'RE RIGHT, IT IS IN
PART.
>> YOUR BROTHER'S NOT HAPPY WITH
THE BOOK.
>> I BELIEVE THAT MY BROTHER IS
ENTITLED TO HIS PRIVACY AND HIS
OPINION, AND I AM COMPLETELY
SUPPORTIVE OF WHATEVER
RELATIONSHIP HE HAS WITH MY
FAMILY AND WHATEVER CHOICES HE
MAKES.
IT'S NONE OF MY BUSINESS.
THIS IS ENTIRELY MY DOING.
I DIDN'T CONSULT ANYBODY.
IN MY FAMILY NOBODY KNEW IT WAS
HAPPENING.
YOU KNOW, I DIDN'T FEEL THAT I
NEEDED TO ASK PERMISSION BY ANY
STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION, BUT
I DIDN'T WANT TO IMPLICATE
ANYBODY, YOU KNOW?
THIS IS MY RESPONSIBILITY AND I
BELIEVE VERY STRONGLY THAT IT'S
MY OBLIGATION.
BUT IF OTHER PEOPLE DON'T FEEL
THAT WAY, I COMPLETELY RESPECT
THAT.
>> YOU DO HAVE ONE POTENTIALLY
EXPLOSIVE ALLEGATION IN THE
BOOK, AT LEAST ONE, AND YOU
WRITE THAT WHEN THE PRESIDENT
WAS TRYING TO TRANSFER FROM
FORDHAM TO PENN, HE HAD SOMEONE
ELSE, A MAN NAMED JOE SHAPIRO
TAKE HIS S.A.T.S?
>> YES.
>> THIS WAS 1964.
HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT?
>> I'VE BEEN TOLD THIS BY PEOPLE
IN MY FAMILY.
I AM ABSOLUTELY CONFIDENT THAT
IT'S TRUE.
I'M HAPPY FINALLY TO BE ABLE TO
SPEAK ABOUT IT.
I ALSO KNOW THAT IT WAS NOT THE
JOE SHAPIRO PEOPLE HAVE BEEN
FOCUSING ON WHO JUST HAPPENED TO
BE AT U PENN WHEN DONALD WAS WHO
HAPPENED TO BE IN NEW YORK ALONG
I GUESS WITH MANY, MANY OTHER
JOE SHAPIROS AROUND THAT TIME.
BUT I STAND BY IT, ABSOLUTELY.
>> TO BE CLEAR, IT'S NOT PAM
SHRIVER, THE WIDOW OF JOE
SHAPIRO.
SHE'S COME OUT PUBLICLY.
>> YES, AND I FEEL TERRIBLE THAT
SHE'S BEEN SUBJECTED TO THIS.
HONESTLY I WISH I WOULD HAVE
SAID SOMETHING SOONER.
I'M HAPPY TO NOW.
AND I ABSOLUTELY STAND BY THE
STORY.
I THINK THE ONLY PEOPLE OTHER
THAN ME WHO CAN ADDRESS IT ARE
OTHER PEOPLE IN MY FAMILY, AND I
LOOK FORWARD TO HEARING THEIR
RESPONSE TO THAT QUESTION.
>> HOW DO YOU KNOW IT'S TRUE?
>> I TRUST MY SOURCES.
>> IS JOE SHAPIRO STILL ALIVE?
>> THAT I DON'T KNOW.
I HAVE NO IDEA.
>> HAVE YOU EVER MET JOE
SHAPIRO?
>> I HAVE NOT.
>> SO YOU BELIEVE IN YOUR
SOURCES?
>> UH-HUH.
>> HOW DO YOUR SOURCES KNOW?
>> THEY WERE ALIVE AT THE TIME,
SO THEY HAVE FIRSTHAND KNOWLEDGE
OF THIS.
>> AND YOU BELIEVE OTHER MEMBERS
OF YOUR FAMILY ALSO KNOW THIS IS
TRUE?
>> YES.
>> AND DONALD TRUMP KNOWS IT'S
TRUE?
>> YES.
>> WHITE HOUSE SAYS IT'S AN
ABSURD FALSEHOOD.
>> OF COURSE THEY WOULD.
BUT THE WHITE HOUSE ISN'T
DONALD, AND IT -- THE PRESS
SECRETARY FOR THE WHITE HOUSE
DOES NOT REPRESENT MY AUNTS AND
OTHER UNCLE.
>> CAN YOU PROVE IT'S TRUE?
>> CAN I PROVE?
NO, BECAUSE I'M COUNTING ON
PEOPLE I TRUST WHO TOLD ME THIS
STORY.
SO IN TERMS OF DOCUMENTATION,
NO, I CAN'T PROVE IT, BUT I CAN
CERTAINLY SAY WITH 100%
CERTAINTY THAT I WAS TOLD THIS
STORY BY A SOURCE VERY CLOSE TO
DONALD.
>> YOU DO WRITE THAT HE ONCE HAD
A SPARK OF KINDNESS.
>> YEAH.
I THINK HE DID.
THE EVIDENCE FOR IT IS SLIM.
IN ALL SERIOUSNESS, WHAT'S
TRAGIC ABOUT IT TO ME IS THAT I
THINK HE HAD THOSE IMPULSES, BUT
THEY HAD BEEN SO PERVERTED BY MY
GRANDFATHER.
THEY HAD BEEN SO PERVERTED BY
THE EXAMPLE OF MY GRANDFATHER
HAD MADE OF MY FATHER, THAT HE
DIDN'T QUITE KNOW HOW TO DO IT.
SO WHEN DONALD WAS TRYING
GENUINELY TO BE KIND, I'M NOT
TALKING ABOUT THE SUPERFICIAL
ARE CHARM HE USES TO DRAW PEOPLE
IN INITIALLY.
I'M TALKING ABOUT REALLY WANTING
TO CONNECT OR BE THERE IN SOME
WAY.
HE JUST CAN'T DO IT.
OR HE COULDN'T.
HONESTLY, I DON'T THINK THAT'S
EVEN AN ISSUE ANYMORE.
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT DECADES AGO.
AND I BELIEVE -- AND I WRITE
ABOUT THIS, THE VERY EARLY
STUFF, THAT ONE OF THE
UNFORGIVABLE THINGS MY
GRANDFATHER DID TO DONALD WAS HE
SEVERELY RESTRICTED THE RANGE OF
HUMAN EMOTION THAT WAS
ACCESSIBLE TO HIM, WHICH MAKES
IT --
>> WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
>> IT MEANS THAT CERTAIN
FEELINGS WERE NOT ALLOWED.
>> LIKE?
>> SADNESS.
KINDNESS ISN'T A FEELING, SO
FEELINGS, IMPULSES, THE IMPULSE
TO BE KIND, THE IMPULSE TO BE
GENEROUS.
FOR THE BOYS, I'M SPEAKING OF
THE BOYS NOW, PARTICULARLY
DONALD AND MY DAD.
THOSE THINGS THAT MY GRANDFATHER
FOUND SUPERFLUOUS, A STUPID
WASTE OF TIME, WERE RUTHLESSLY
PUNISHED AND MY DAD COULDN'T
CHANGE WHO HE WAS.
SO HE JUST WAS DISMANTLED OVER
TIME.
DONALD TRIED HIS VERY BEST NOT
TO BE DESTROYED IN THE WAY MY
DAD WAS DESTROYED, SO HE ENDED
UP WITH A VERY NARROW RANGE IN
WHICH HE COULD SAFELY OPERATE AS
A HUMAN BEING.
AND IT'S MADE IT EXTRAORDINARILY
DIFFICULT FOR HIM TO LIVE IN THE
WORLD.
AS I SAID EARLIER, HE'S NEVER
REALLY HAD TO.
SO IT'S CREATED THIS QUITE
DANGEROUS SITUATION.
>> THE HARDEST SCENES TO ME TO
READ IN THE BOOK ARE THE WAY THE
FAMILY -- I SHOULD SAY THE MEN
IN THE FAMILY -- DEAL WITH
WEAKNESS, SICKNESS, DEATH.
STARTING OUT WITH FRED SR. WHEN
HIS WIFE IS ILL.
>> YEAH.
YES.
GRANDFATHER WASN'T ADHERENT TO
NORMAN VINCENT PEEL'S DOCTRINE.
IT CERTAINLY DIDN'T BEGIN WITH
HIM.
MY GRANDFATHER HAD ALWAYS BEEN
THE KIND OF PERSON WHO COULD NOT
DEAL WITH NEGATIVITY.
>> YOU CALL IT TOXIC POSITIVITY.
>> YES, BECAUSE IT ALLOWED ROOM
FOR NOTHING ELSE.
AND THERE WERE TIMES IN OUR
LIVES WHEN WE ARE LEGITIMATELY
DISTRESSED.
WE'RE LEGITIMATELY SAD, WE'RE
LEGITIMATELY IN PAIN, AND TO BE
PREVENTED FROM BEING ABLE TO
FEEL THOSE FEELINGS HONESTLY AND
OPENLY IS A FORM OF TORTURE.
YOU KNOW, MY GRANDMOTHER, WHO
WAS SICK OFTEN AND BROKE BONES
MORE TIMES THAN I CAN COUNTED
BECAUSE OF HER OSTEOPROSES, SHE
WAS IN AGONY MOST OF THE TIME.
SHE WOULD BE IN THERAPY AND JUST
MOVING WAS EXTRAORDINARILY
PAINFUL FOR HER, AND MY
GRANDFATHER COULD NOT TOLERATE
IT.
IT IMPINGED ON THIS IDEA HE HAD
THAT EVERYTHING HAD TO BE GREAT
AT ALL TIMES.
AND THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO SUFFERED
FOR THAT WERE THE PEOPLE WHO
WERE ACTUALLY IN PAIN.
FIRST MY GRANDMOTHER, THEN MY
DAD, AND THEN ANYBODY ELSE IN
THE FAMILY WHO SHOWED THE
WEAKNESS OF BEING HUMAN.
>> YOUR FATHER GOT VERY ILL,
DEATHLY ILL, AND YOU GET A PHONE
CALL FROM YOUR GRANDFATHER.
>> YEAH.
THAT WAS -- THAT'S THE KIND OF
EXPERIENCE THAT'S SHAPED AS MUCH
BY WHAT HAPPENED AFTER AS IT IS
IN THE MOMENT.
AND I REMEMBER THAT CONVERSATION
VERBATIM.
IT WAS SO STRIKING AT THE TIME,
BUT ALSO GIVEN WHAT I NOW KNOW
WAS THE TRUTH WHILE I WAS HAVING
THAT CONVERSATION, I'VE NEVER --
I WILL NEVER FORGET IT.
I HAD BEEN TOLD TO CALL HOME.
I DIDN'T KNOW WHY.
MY MOTHER WASN'T HOME, SO I WAS
TOLD TO CALL MY GRANDPARENTS IN
THAT EVENT.
WHEN MY GRANDFATHER GOT ON THE
PHONE, HE SAID YOUR DAD'S SICK.
IS IT SERIOUS?
HE'S IN THE HOSPITAL, BUT IT'S
NOT SERIOUS.
OKAY.
BUT, YOU KNOW, WHY AM I CALLING
YOU AT 10:00 ON A SATURDAY NIGHT
IF IT'S NOT SERIOUS.
I WAS THINKING TO MYSELF.
SO I SAID, WELL, IS IT HIS
HEART, BECAUSE HE HAD HAD OPEN
HEART SURGERY THREE YEARS
EARLIER AT THE AGE OF 39.
AND HE SAID, YES, IT'S HIS
HEART, AND I SAID THEN IT IS
SERIOUS.
YES, IT'S SERIOUS, BUT DON'T
WORRY ABOUT IT.
CALL YOUR MOTHER IN THE MORNING.
AND AS I FOUND OUT TWO MINUTES
LATER WHEN I CALLED MY MOTHER TO
FIND OUT WHAT'S GOING ON, MY
FATHER HAD DIED TWO HOURS
EARLIER.
>> MORE OR LESS ALONE.
>> COMPLETELY ALONE.
OBVIOUSLY WITH STRANGERS
SURROUNDING HIM, BUT NO FAMILY.
>> YOU WRITE THAT HIS BROTHER
WENT TO THE MOVIES.
>> YEAH.
THAT SHOCKED EVEN ME WHEN I
HEARD ABOUT IT.
YOU KNOW, IT WAS BAD ENOUGH.
IT WAS PROBABLY WORSE, HONESTLY,
THAT MY DAD'S PARENTS JUST SAT
IN THE LIBRARY IN THE HOUSE
WAITING FOR A PHONE CALL.
I WILL NEVER KNOW WHY THEY
DIDN'T GO TO THE HOSPITAL TO BE
WITH THEIR SON WHO WAS CLEARLY
DYING.
SO MAYBE IT ISN'T SURPRISING
THAT DONALD DIDN'T THINK HE
NEEDED TO BE THERE.
MAYBE THAT WOULD HAVE LOOKED BAD
TO HIS FATHER.
AND MAYBE SITTING AROUND WAITING
FOR THE PHONE CALL WAS TOO
BURDENSOME.
I DON'T KNOW.
BUT, YOU KNOW, I'VE OFTEN
WONDERED WHAT MOVIE DID HE GO TO
SEE THAT SEEMED MORE COMPELLING
THAN SITTING WITH HIS DYING
BROTHER.
BUT I'LL NEVER KNOW.
>> FOR MANY YEARS AFTER YOUR
FATHER DIED, YOU WERE TAKEN CARE
OF BY THE TRUMP FAMILY?
>> UH-HUH.
>> AND THEN FRED TRUMP DIES AND
YOU HAVE THE IMPASSE, WHICH
YOU'RE STILL DEALING WITH THE
CONSEQUENCES TODAY.
>> YEAH.
I JUST WANT TO CLARIFY
SOMETHING.
YOU SAY TAKEN CARE OF.
THE SENSE IN WHICH THAT'S TRUE
IS NO DIFFERENT FROM THE THE
SENSE IN WHICH IT'S TRUE FOR
ANYBODY ELSE IN MY FAMILY.
MY DAD HAD TRUST FUNDS, WHICH MY
BROTHER AND I INHERITED WHEN MY
FATHER DIED.
WE HAD THE SAME HEALTH INSURANCE
THROUGH MY GRANDFATHER'S COMPANY
THAT EVERYBODY ELSE IN THE
FAMILY HAD.
IT WASN'T AS IF, YOU KNOW, WE
WERE GETTING HANDOUTS.
WE HAD THE SAME EXACT
ARRANGEMENTS EVERYBODY ELSE HAD
WITH THE DIFFERENCE THAT OUR
FATHER WAS NO LONGER ALIVE
AND -- NOT THAT I KNEW IT AT THE
TIME, BUT WE HAD NO FURTHER
EXPECTATIONS FROM MY
GRANDFATHER.
DIDN'T FIND OUT UNTIL QUITE A
BIT LATER.
SO IT'S INTERESTING TO ME THAT
THEY HAVE THIS VERY SELF-SERVING
DOUBLE STANDARD WHEN IT COMES TO
DESCRIBING WHAT I'VE RECEIVED
BECAUSE OF MY GRANDFATHER'S
WEALTH AND BECAUSE MY FATHER
DIED WHEN I WAS 16 AND THEIR OWN
CIRCUMSTANCES.
>> BUT THE DISPUTE WAS BASICALLY
YOU AND YOUR BROTHER BELIEVED
THAT YOU DESERVED YOUR FATHER'S
SHARE OF THE FAMILY.
>> THAT'S ACTUALLY NOT ENTIRELY
ACCURATE BECAUSE THE LAWSUIT
WAS -- WAS LESS ABOUT MY
GRANDFATHER'S ESTATE THAN IT WAS
ABOUT A PARTNERSHIP BUYOUT.
I DON'T KNOW AT THE TIME I WOULD
HAVE BEEN ABLE TO PUT IT IN
THOSE TERMS, BUT THAT'S
ESSENTIALLY WHAT IT WAS.
SO THAT'S WHERE THE PROBLEMS
AROSE.
>> AND THE DISPUTE GOT UGLY.
YOUR BROTHER HAS A SON WHO HAD
HEALTH ISSUES, AND AT ONE POINT
THEY THREATENED TO CUT OFF HIS
HEALTH INSURANCE?
>> THEY DID CUT OFF OUR HEALTH
INSURANCE.
>> WHERE DID IT GO FROM THERE?
>> WE HAD TO SUE THEM TO HAVE
THE HEALTH INSURANCE REINSTATED.
IT NEVER WAS.
I DO BELIEVE, THOUGH, SOME
ACCOMMODATIONS WERE MADE FOR MY
NEPHEW, THANKFULLY.
BUT THAT WAS MY LAST INVOLVEMENT
IN ANY WAY WITH THE FAMILY.
>> WHEN IT WAS ALL SETTLED, WHEN
THE LAWSUIT WAS DONE, DID YOU
THINK IT WAS A FAIR SETTLEMENT?
>> NO, BUT I DIDN'T HAVE ENOUGH
INFORMATION TO UNDERSTAND IN
WHAT WAY IT WASN'T FAIR.
AND AT THE TIME, AGAIN, IT'S A
VERY LONG TIME AGO.
I WAS VERY CLOSE WITH MY
GRANDMOTHER.
SO A LOT OF IT FOR ME WAS
WRAPPED UP IN THE -- QUITE
HONESTLY, DEVASTATION I FELT
WHEN SHE LET US GO SO EASILY
BECAUSE OF MONEY.
SO THAT WAS MUCH MORE IMPORTANT
TO ME THAN THE OTHER SIDE OF IT.
AND IT CERTAINLY MADE THE
DEALING WITH THE MONEY ISSUES
HARDER BECAUSE --
>> BUT IT WAS ALL ABOUT THE
MONEY, WASN'T IT?
>> I'M A TRUMP, YOU KNOW?
EVERYTHING'S ABOUT MONEY IN THIS
FAMILY.
BUT I'M ALSO DIFFERENT FROM
THEM.
AND FOR ME, WHAT I UNDERSTOOD
AND ONE OF THE REASONS IT WAS SO
DEVASTATING WAS THAT MONEY STOOD
IN FOR EVERYTHING ELSE.
IT WAS LITERALLY THE ONLY
CURRENCY THE FAMILY TRAFFICKED
IN.
SO I KNEW THAT IT WAS ALSO ABOUT
LOVE.
AND TO BE DISINHERITED, TO BE
SHUT OUT ENTIRELY FROM THE
WEALTHY OF THE FAMILY WAS TO BE
TOLD QUITE EXPLICITLY THAT YOU
DON'T COUNT AND YOU ARE NOT
LOVED.
>> PART OF THE SETTLEMENT WAS A
NONDISCLOSURE AGREEMENT.
>> UH-HUH.
>> WHY DO YOU FEEL TODAY THAT
IT'S NOT NECESSARY TO ABIDE BY
THAT?
>> THERE ARE A FEW REASONS.
ONE, SOME OF THOSE REASONS ARE
TECHNICAL.
AND I'M NOT A LAWYER, SO I DON'T
WANT TO GO INTO TOO MUCH OF
THAT.
>> YOUR LAWYERS MADE THOSE
ARGUMENTS.
>> THEY DID AND THEY DID
BRILLIANT.
THEY'RE STORED.
TED ABOUT YOU TROSS, ANNIE
CHAMPION, THEY'RE EXTRAORDINARY
HUMAN BEINGS AND ATTORNEYS.
BUT THE TECHNICAL STUFF ASIDE, I
DIDN'T FEEL THAT THE NDA MATTER
ONE WAY OR THE OTHER BECAUSE
WHAT I HAVE TO SAY IS TOO
IMPORTANT, AND WHETHER I HAD TO
PUBLISH THIS BOOK ON MY OWN OR
SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES OF A
COURT BATTLE, I DIDN'T CARE.
>> 2017, A FEW MONTHS AFTER YOUR
AUNT'S BIRTHDAY AT THE WHITE
HOUSE, YOU START GETTING CALLS
FROM "THE NEW YORK TIMES."
DESCRIBE THAT.
>> ACTUALLY, IT STARTED WITH A
KNOCK ON MY DOOR.
SO THERE WAS NO EASING IN WITH
PHONE CALLS.
YEAH, SUZANNE CRAIG,
INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER
EXTRAORDINAIRE KNOCKED ON MY
DOOR, I BELIEVE IT WAS JUNE OF
2017.
AND TOLD ME THAT THEY WERE
TRYING TO REWRITE THE HISTORY OF
MY FAMILY'S FINANCES, AND SHE
BELIEVED THAT I COULD HELP THEM.
>> DID SHE KNOW OR WAS SHE
FISHING?
>> I DON'T KNOW, ACTUALLY.
EITHER WAY, SHE WAS SPOT ON.
BUT I DIDN'T KNOW.
I DIDN'T KNOW IT AT THE TIME.
I DIDN'T REMEMBER THAT I HAD
ANYTHING IN MY POSSESSION.
I PUT IT AS FAR BEHIND ME AS I
COULD, AND I SAID TO HER, I'M
SORRY, I DON'T SPEAK TO
REPORTERS.
BUT I TOOK HER BUSINESS CARD
ANYWAY, AND THEN SHE STARTED
WRITING LETTERS AND CALLED ON
OCCASION.
AND IT WASN'T UNTIL I GOT
TRAPPED IN MY HOUSE BECAUSE I
FRACTURED MY FIFTH METATARSAL
AND WAS STUKD ON THE COUCH FOR
FOUR MONTHS THAT I STARTED
THINKING ABOUT HER LETTERS,
WHICH SEEMED INCREASINGLY
COMPELLING AND CALLED HER.
>> WHAT WAS THE PITCH?
>> THE PITCH WAS THAT I HAD IN
MY POSSESSION, BECAUSE OF THE
LAWSUIT, DOCUMENTS THAT THEY
BELIEVED COULD HELP THEM UNCOVER
CERTAIN FINANCIAL IMPROPRIETIES.
AND, YOU KNOW, FINALLY I GUESS
AT SOME POINT I THOUGHT WHY NOT?
YOU KNOW?
IF I CAN HELP -- I KNEW THAT MY
SPEAKING OUT WASN'T GOING TO
MAKE A DIFFERENCE CERTAINLY
THEN, BUT IF THERE'S ANYTHING I
CAN DO TO HELP, I DID NOT LIKE
WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN THE
COUNTRY.
I DID NOT LIKE THE WAY THINGS
WERE GOING.
IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO PICK UP A
LAST STRAW, BUT JUST THE
UNRAVELING, YOU KNOW, THE
DESTRUCTION OF INSTITUTIONAL
MEMORY, FROM THE MUSLIM BAN ON
DOWN TO THE KIDNAPPING AND
INCARCERATION OF CHILDREN AT THE
BORDER.
IT WAS UNBEARABLE.
AND IT WASN'T JUST DONALD.
AS I SAID EARLIER, IT WAS THE
NUMBER OF PEOPLE WILLING TO
ENABLE THIS.
SO I SAID, ALL RIGHT, AND I WENT
TO THE OFFICE OF MY
THEN-ATTORNEY AND TOOK A WHILE.
IT DIDN'T JUST HAPPEN IN ONE
DAY, BUT EVENTUALLY I GOT 19
BOXES FULL OF DOCUMENTS, DROVE
THEM TO MY HOUSE AND HANDED THEM
OVER AND THE REST IS HISTORY.
ONE OF THE, IF NOT THE MOST
EXTRAORDINARY PIECE OF
JOURNALISM I'VE EVER SEEN IN MY
LIFE.
>> AS A REPORTER, I CAN'T
IMAGINE -- OR DESCRIBE IT,
WHETHER I CAN IMAGINE IT OR NOT
THEIR REACTION WHEN YOU BROUGHT
THE 19 BOXES OF TAX DOCUMENTS.
>> WE WERE REALLY HAPPY.
IT WAS -- YEAH.
IT WAS AMAZING.
THEY WERE -- WE WERE ECSTATIC
BECAUSE IT FINALLY FELT REAL.
AND THEY HAD BEEN WORKING ON
THIS STORY FOR MONTHS.
>> BUT YOU DIDN'T EVEN KNOW WHAT
WAS IN THE DOCUMENTS, REALLY?
>> NO, I HAD NO IDEA.
BUT THEY SEEMED TO THINK THAT IT
WAS EXTREMELY VALUABLE.
AND I KNEW THAT THEY KNEW WHAT
THEY WERE DOING.
>> A YEAR LATER, PULITZER PRIZE,
AND IT DESCRIBES A LOT OF
THINGS, THAT DONALD TRUMP'S DAD
WAS FAR WEALTHIER THAN PEOPLE
KNEW, FAR MORE THAN YOU AND YOUR
LAWYERS KNEW WHEN WILL WILL WAS
BEING FOUGHT OVER, THAT DONALD
TRUMP WAS FAR LESS WEALTHY THAN
PEOPLE KNEW, BUT FOR HIS
GRANDFATHER.
AND ALSO RAISED THE QUESTION
THAT PERHAPS SOME OF IT WAS DONE
IN A WAY THAT COULD CONSTITUTE
TAX FRAUD.
WHAT ABOUT THAT SURPRISED YOU?
>> HONESTLY NONE OF THAT
SURPRISED ME.
WHAT DID SURPRISE ME WAS THE
LENGTH THEY ALLEGEDLY WENT TO,
THE FORMATION OF ALL COUNTY,
WHICH WAS SIMPLY A SHELL
CORPORATION DESIGNED TO SIPHON
MONEY AWAY FROM MY GRANDFATHER'S
VERY VALUABLE AND SUCCESSFUL
COMPANY SO THAT THAT MONEY COULD
SORT OF BE DISAPPEARED AND THE
MONEY LEFT TO PAY TAXES ON WAS
SIGNIFICANTLY LESS.
SO THAT AMAZED ME.
>> PART OF THE REASON YOU DIDN'T
PUT UP A BIGGER FIGHT WAS YOUR
LAWYER BELIEVED THE ENTIRE
ESTATE WAS $30 MILLION.
>> RIGHT.
>> WHAT WAS IT?
>> IT WAS ALMOST $1 BILLION.
SO $970 MILLION MORE.
>> WERE YOU SURPRISED AT HOW
LITTLE POLITICAL IMPACT THOSE
REVELATIONS SEEMED TO HAVE?
>> I WAS.
YOU KNOW, A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE
RIGHTLY EFF FSUSIVE AND GRATEFUL
FOR THE BRILLIANT WORK AND THE
STARTLING REVELATIONS THAT
SHOULD'VE MATTERED.
BUT HOW MANY TIMES HAVE WE SEEN
THIS PLAY OUT?
THIS IS ONE THING THAT I GRAPPLE
WITH TRYING TO UNDERSTAND.
FOR MOST OF US, OUR MISTAKES ARE
CUMULATIVE, YOU KNOW?
OR OUR TRANSGRESSIONS ARE
CUMULATIVE.
SO WHEN THERE'S A RECKONING, THE
SUM TOTAL OF WHAT WE'VE DONE IS
TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT.
THAT DOES NOT SEEM TO EXIST IN
DONALD'S UNIVERSE.
THIS HORRIBLE THING HAPPENS AND
THEN THIS HORRIBLE THING
HAPPENS, SO WE FORGET ABOUT THE
FIRST HORRIBLE THING.
SO THEY JUST REPLACE EACH OTHER.
>> BUT FOR YOU, THE POLITICAL
HAD BECOME PERSONAL, AND THE
PERSONAL BECAME POLITICAL, AND
YOU WRITE I HAD TO TAKE DONALD
DOWN.
>> YES.
MAYBE A BIT OF AN OVERSTATEMENT
THERE IN THE SENSE THAT I DIDN'T
EVER THINK THAT THERE WAS ANY
ONE THING I OR ANYBODY ELSE
COULD DO.
BUT CERTAINLY IN THAT MOMENT
THAT I'M DESCRIBING, I FELT THAT
I NEEDED TO DO ANYTHING I COULD,
NOT JUST TO STOP THIS, BUT ALSO
TO MAKE UP FOR THE FACT THAT I
HADN'T DONE ANYTHING IN THE
PAST.
THAT WEIGHED ON ME, EVEN THOUGH
I KNEW THAT IT PROBABLY WOULDN'T
HAVE MADE A DIFFERENCE, YOU
KNOW, IF THIS ALMOST 14,000 WORD
ARTICLE DIDN'T HAVE THE KIND OF
IMPACT IT SHOULD HAVE HAD BY ALL
RIGHTS, THEN NOTHING I WOULD
HAVE SAID NECESSARILY WOULD HAVE
MATTERED.
BUT I DEFINITELY FELT THE
RESPONSIBILITY OF NEEDING TO DO
SOMETHING.
>> WHAT DO YOU WANT TO HAPPEN
NOW?
>> THIS COUNTRY IS ON A
PRECIPICE, AND WE HAVE A
DECISION TO MAKE IN THE
NOT-TOO-DISTANT FUTURE ABOUT WHO
WE WANT TO BE AND WHERE WE WANT
TO GO AS A COUNTRY.
IT'S HARD FOR ME TO PROCESS JUST
HOW MANY AWFUL THINGS ARE GOING
ON SIMULTANEOUSLY ON A DAILY
BASIS.
AND PEOPLE NEED TO KNOW.
PEOPLE NEED AS MUCH INFORMATION
AS IS AVAILABLE IN ORDER TO MAKE
A DECISION THAT MAKES SENSE FOR
OUR FUTURE.
AS A COUNTRY, AS AMERICANS, AS
CITIZENS OF THE WORLD, SO TO
SPEAK.
>> "THE NEW YORK TIMES" REVIEW
OF YOUR BOOK CONCLUDES, SAYING
IT'S BEEN WRITTEN FROM PAIN AND
DESIGNED TO HURT.
FAIR CRITIQUE?
>> NO.
WRITTEN FROM PAIN, ABSOLUTELY.
HURTING WASN'T MY -- IT WASN'T A
GOAL.
IT WASN'T AN INTENTION.
IF TELLING THE TRUTH, IF TELLING
THE STORIES AS I WERE THEM AS
THEY WERE TOLD TO ME CAUSES
PAIN, THEN THE PEOPLE WHO
PARTICIPATED IN THEM NEED TO
LOOK TO THEMSELVES.
>> APRIL 2017, I'M GOING TO END
WHERE I BEGAN.
>> SURE.
>> YOU SEE THE PRESIDENT IN THE
OVAL OFFICE AND YOU TELL HIM,
DON'T LET THEM GET YOU DOWN.
DO YOU MEAN THAT?
>> I DID.
ACTUALLY.
THAT WAS FOUR MONTHS IN.
HE ALREADY SEEMED VERY STRAINED
BY THE PRESSURES.
YOU KNOW, HE'D NEVER BEEN IN A
SITUATION BEFORE WHERE HE WASN'T
ENTIRELY PROTECTED FROM
CRITICISM OR ACCOUNTABILITY OR
THINGS LIKE THAT.
AND I JUST REMEMBER THINKING, HE
SEEMS TIRED.
HE SEEMS LIKE THIS IS NOT WHAT
HE SIGNED UP FOR IF HE EVEN
KNOWS WHAT HE SIGNED UP FOR.
AND I THOUGHT HIS RESPONSE WAS
ACTUALLY MORE ENLIGHTENING THAN
MY STATEMENT.
AND HE SAID THEY WON'T GET ME.
AND SO FAR, LOOKS LIKE HE'S
RIGHT.
>> IF YOU'RE IN THE OVAL OFFICE
TODAY, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO
HIM?
>> RESIGN.
>> THANK YOU.
>> I'M GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS,
THANKS FOR JOINING US ON THIS
SPECIAL EDITION OF ABC NEWS
LIVE.
>> SHERIFF'S OFFICE!
>> WE MARCH TOGETHER.
>> THE MOST POWERFUL STORIES OF
OUR TIME, ANYTIME.
"NIGHTLINE."
>>> YOUR MOM SAID, "COMB YOUR
HAIR."
YOUR DAD TOLD YOU, "SMARTEN UP."
YOUR DOG IS JUDGING YOU RIGHT
NOW.
AND YOUR BEST FRIEND JUST CALLED
YOU CRAZY.
WE ALL NEED SOMEONE WHO'LL PULL
NO PUNCHES AND GIVE IT TO US
STRAIGHT.
NOW, IMAGINE GETTING YOUR NEWS
LIKE THAT.
NO BULL, NO SPIN, JUST GIVE IT
TO ME STRAIGHT.
STRAIGHTFORWARD NEWS, STRAIGHT
TO THE HEART OF THE STORY.
ABC NEWS, STRAIGHTFORWARD.
>>> THE AMERICANS HERE ON THE
>>> NOW, WITH SO MUCH ON THE
LINE, ABC NEWS, AMERICA'S NUMBER
ONE NEWS, IS RIGHT THERE FOR YOU
LIVE ON HULU WITH STORIES OF
STRENGTH, STORIES OF HOPE,
BECAUSE NOW WHEN IT MATTERS
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>>> I GET KNOCKED DOWN, BUT I
GET UP AGAIN, BANKSY SPREADING
HIS UNIQUE MESSAGE IN A LONDON
TUBE, TAKING TO THE TRAINS.
>>> RECORD-BREAKING RISE OF
CASES.
TEXAS AND ARIZONA WITH A
STAGGERING NUMBER OF INFECTIONS
TONIGHT .
A FIELD HOSPITAL NOW BEING SET
UP AT THE CONVENTION CENTER IN
AUSTIN.
THE LATEST MAJOR CITIES TO
ANNOUNCE SCHOOLS WILL BE OPENING
ONLINE ONLY.
>>> OHIO NOW EXPECTED TO ROLL
BACK ITS REOPENING PLANS.
THE NEW REPORTING FROM THE FRONT
LINES.
HUNDREDS OF HEALTH CARE WORKERS
DYING ACROSS THE U.S. AFTER
BEING EXPOSED TO THE VIRUS.
WE'LL HAVE AN UP CLOSE LOOK.
>>> PUSHING BACK.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI CALLS THE
ATTACKS ON HIM FROM MEMBERS OF
THE PRESIDENT'S TEAM, QUOTE,
BIZARRE.
ONE
