My first identity is spiritual in nature,
that's my primary identity. My secondary identity
is my culture of origin, it's the fact that
I'm male, it's the fact that I'm an artist.
Those are all secondary identities. But the
thing I foreground when I enter a space, is
that primary identity first. It’s the thing
that allows me to look at everybody and say:
“Oh, there's my sister. Oh, that's my aunt
over there. Oh, that's my mom. That's my dad
over there.” It's that interconnectedness
that, you know, that is such an essential
aspect; the foundational element of being
a human being that connects us all. So yeah.
That’s beautiful. I like the way you phrase
that, your primary identity and your secondary
identity. And that's consciousness that allows
you to be a unifier and not a seperator.
“Nothing You Do Matters Unless What You
Do Matters”
I’m Amadon DellErba and this is “Get Real
or Die Trying”
Good afternoon, Amadon DellErba here with
“Get Real or Die Trying.” I'm really excited
to be here today on Episode 23. I'm sitting
down, and I feel honored to have a conversation
here, with Masud Olufani, and he is a gentleman
that I have a lot of respect for. I've never
met him, but just from reading his work, seeing
his videos, seeing his art, I really was drawn
to what his calling is and what he's doing
in the world. He's a multidisciplinary artist,
he's a writer, he's an actor, he's a host
of the podcast “America's Most Challenging
Issue,” he's the co-host of “Retro Report”
on PBS - a primetime investigative news show
that looks at news events through the lens
of history - and he's a member of the Bahá'í
faith and he's a man of God. So, very excited
to sit down with Masud. How are you doing
today, brother?
I'm doing pretty good, man. How you doing?
Really good. Thanks for coming on, man.
I'm happy to be here, brother. Happy to be
here.
Well, we got a lot to talk about. I definitely
want to dive into some spirituality and your
Bahá'í faith and how you interpret your
view of life and things in the world through
all that. But first I want to talk about your
art. For those of you who don't know who he
is, check out his website, but a lot of very
good pictures there of your different sculptures
and different art forms. I find it very fascinating
and I really appreciated how you blended in
a lot of cultural important historic facts
into your art. So it was not just…. it was
kind of an educational lesson, too, viewing
the art. I found it fascinating to be taught
some of what you were trying to communicate
- historical facts through art. Tell me about
your art and how, how you see your art in
the world.
Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting, man. I mean,
you know, I've been engaged in making visual
objects ever since I was about four years
old, you know? So a long time, just naturally
drawn towards, you know, renderings and draftsmanship
and, you know, cartoon characters initially
and then I developed over time. You know,
I think the work that I'm making now, you
know, which operates in multiple spaces creatively;
like it's sculpture, but then it's also some
drawn imagery, there's sound, there's video
in some of the work as well. It's informed
by a deep concern that I've always had regarding
memory, historical truths, historical myths,
historical lies… Seeing how our past, our
memory, our history impacts us today. The
links between the then and the now. And also,
the possibility of what may be. So conceptually
those are issues that have always kind of
been... that I've kind of revolved around,
you know, and always come back to consistently.
I think those conceptual interests, I think
can be traced back to developing a deep love
for reading, which happened when I was in
high school, I was living in Queens, out in
Far Rockaway, near the beach, and I was actually
going to school in Newark, New Jersey. So
that train ride is usually between 60 minutes
to an hour and 15 minutes long. So, I just
had a lot of time so I started reading and
fell in love with narrative stories, narrative
structure. And was just naturally drawn to
historical nonfiction books. And that's kind
of where the love for those historical…
mining the historic past, as kind of like
creative fodder began for me.
So, yeah.
Very cool, man. Yeah, I appreciate that you,
you know, some people, I guess just do art
for an emotional release and it may not even
have a meaning. It's just an abstract piece
of art. It has a meaning to them but it's
not easily tangible to others. I think what
I really liked about looking at your art is
that, it has a very clear meaning, you know,
and it's… and art, to me, should always
communicate something, you know, should communicate
a message. It should uplift. And I think when
we were talking on the phone a few weeks ago,
I mentioned that I read The URANTIA Book and
you know, there's a great quote I thought
you would appreciate in The URANTIA Book about
art. There’s actually a few. I kinda, I
kinda think you're a poet, too. From hearing
you speak, and hearing you write and, one
of those is, “Only a poet can discern poetry
in the commonplace prose of routine existence.”
Hmm. I love that. I love… Yeah, I love that.
And so I think some of your sculptures, I
thought like, wow, this is actually a tragic
thing. Or, you know, it's really a mundane
thing of the existence, but you turned it
into poetry and communicated that way. And,
of course the art… this quote, “The high
mission of any art is, by its illusions, to
foreshadow a higher universe reality, to crystallize
the emotions of time into the thought of eternity.”
Yeah. Yeah.
So I thought you might appreciate that, just
being an artist.
No, definitely man. Yeah, absolutely. There's
a beautiful quote in the Bahá'í writings
that says “Art is a ladder for the soul”
and I think it lifts us, you know, hopefully
it's our intent as we, you know, utilize these
gifts and these disciplines is really to elevate
consciousness and thought get us to a higher
place, which I think those two quotes that
you shared definitely are in line with that
kind of aspirational view of an artist who
aspires to use their work in a deep and meaningful
way. So, yeah, man. That's awesome. Thank
you brother, for sharing that.
Thank you, if there's one piece of art that
you would consider your favorite that you've
done and our listeners, you'd want them to
check out, what would that be? You name your
art, you know...
Yeah. Yeah. You know, the one that I'm thinking
a lot of, probably because it's the most recent
and it's a public work of art is the Elder
Project that I just completed.
I saw that.
Yeah, and that's important, I think, because
it foregrounds the history of a person that
a lot of people don't know about which was
David T. Howard, who formerly had been an
enslaved person and after the Emancipation
Proclamation and the end of the Civil War,
he was able to develop an undertaking business
here in Atlanta and acquired, you know, a
certain amount of monetary success. And then
purchased some land where the original David
T. Howard school was built. And that school
along with Booker T. Washington school, here
in Atlanta, were the only two schools that
would educate black students in the city.
So, you know, it's a rich history that site
and all of the people who came through that
school - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. went to
that school as a boy; Maynard Jackson, the
first African American mayor of Atlanta; and
other notable people. And so for that project,
you know, just because of that history, it
was profound. But also because I got to work
with alumni from the school and cast their
hands and their hands become a central element
in the piece. And I was able actually to cast
the hand of one of the original graduates
of the original high school class, which is
1946, I believe. And she's in her nineties
now. Brought her into the studio, she held
her hand very steady, we got a really good
mould off her hand, and, you know, now she's
included in this piece to honor that history.
So...
That is cool.
Yeah, so a lot of that, you know, that idea
of memory and historical realities and legacy
and the elders, you know, those who we unfortunately
in our society too often discard, but they
really are the repositories of memory and
of history, and they’re so such an important
integral part of a healthy society. So, yeah...
Yeah, absolutely man. Yeah, I was attracted
just to the name of it and then I saw the
hands coming out and I was like, I had the
thought, “I wonder if those are specific
people's hands,” you know?
Yeah. Yeah.
And of course the elder… the lack of, in
our culture, respect for our elders today
is really quite sad. And not just our chronological
elders, but our spiritual elders, you know,
the people that have gone before us, made
the right choices, have a lot of wisdom to
offer. And young people today don’t seem
to have the appreciation and respect, you
know, that they did at one time.
As a young man, I, myself, you know, I fail
on that sometimes. But as a young man who's
trying not to fail, I feel it's important
for me to preach, to speak to other young
people, to, find their elders, respect their
elders, learn from them, you know. I have
spiritual teachers. I have spiritual elders.
And sometimes your spiritual elders tell you
things you don't want to hear and that's part
of the growth, you know. I'm sure we'll get
into that more as a man of God, yourself,
in the Bahá'í faith.
But yeah, like I said, I really appreciate
that your art communicates a higher message.
You know, when you look at it, anyone who's
got the eyes to see, they can tell that it's
not really about you, and that's what I appreciate.
You know, the art’s not about you, it's
about you're trying to communicate something
bigger than yourself. You're trying to communicate
historic facts and moving things that really
place a lot of value and time on a whole culture,
the African American culture, too, a lot of,
of what's gone on in the past. So thanks for
that. I find it very educational.
No, I appreciate you on that, man. I appreciate
it. You know it's interesting because I'm
thinking about, you know, indigenous communities,
man, and how the arts have a very, like, they're
an integral part of those communities, right,
historically. Whether you're talking about
Native American indigenous tribes, whether
you're talking about African indigenous tribes,
you know, tribes from South Latin America,
South America, what have you… And, you know,
art is really this fundamental, like, force
within the totality of the culture. And even
something as simple as a drinking vessel is
treated with this incredible creative care,
the way they designed it, the way it's executed,
so that you're constantly surrounded by beauty.
And that has a meaning, right? In the way
that we shape our lives.
So, yeah, man, I think about that as I'm in
my studio. I'm like, “How can this work,
this process?” You know, which is, which
has these kind of mystical and majestic elements.
How can it be in service to something that's
greater than me? And, that for me it's really
always the intent and the aspiration and so
I appreciate you saying that. I'm trying,
brother, I'm trying.
Thanks, man. So tell me a little bit about
how you came, how you became part of the Bahá'í
faith? You know, I think I read on your website,
it was during university, it was introduced
to you. And what were some of the things that
attracted you to the Bahá'í faith? What
were the main tenets, or what really drew
you in?
Yeah. You know man, I grew up man, with this
really kind of like, ecumenical kind of experience
with religion. I mean… and it wasn't that
my parents were intentionally trying to be
ecumenical and you know, kind of expose me
to a number of different faiths. It just happened
by chance that my father at one point was
very inspired and influenced by Malcolm X.
So for awhile, I was in the Nation of Islam
as a kid, I remember going to mosque. My grandmother
was a Lutheran, so I used to go to Lutheran
services. For a while we went to Southern
Baptist. So I had this like, really kind of
varied kind of engagement with religion and
spiritual expression within the context of
religion.
And then when I got to college I really began
to think critically about how religion manifested
itself in practice, right? And how it, in
ways that it lined up and in ways that it
deviated in some fundamental ways from the
teachings of the Messenger or the Manifestation
of God of that particular faith, whether it
be Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, Mohammad, so forth
and so on. And one of the things that was
really interesting to me, my experience with
Christianity, was I couldn't understand why
there was so many different churches that
catered to a particular…. they seemed to
be very culturally exclusive. So you had a
white church, you had a black church, you
had an Asian church, you had a Latin church.
And Christ's message, to me, seemed like it
was one. It was about a kind of… inherent
in it was a kind of… a sense of unity in
the sense that those teachings were for everybody.
Everybody can find something meaningful in
those teachings. So I didn't understand that
division and there were other things that
were troubling to me. The kind of disharmony
or the lack of harmony between science and
religion; how it seemed to be a conscious
decision within certain expressions of Christianity
to kind of gut, right, the religious expression
from the... gut science from that expression.
So, you know, science was something to be
viewed with skepticism or a kind of suspicion,
you know, and that didn't make sense to me
cause I was like, well, God created the world.
And I'm like, there seems to be an inherent
harmony between everything within the world.
I mean, all of the creatures, the water, the
air, you know, the sky, all of these things
seem to be working in a kind of symbiosis;
a kind of harmony there. So it didn't make
sense to me why science would be rejected.
And then when I found the Bahá'í Faith (which
I didn't go looking for) I was introduced
to it. There was a young woman I was seeing
when I was a student at Morehouse and she
was a theater student while I was in the art
department. And she was the one, she was not
a Bahá'í, but she respected the Bahá'í
Faith. And at the time I thought I was going
to be an Episcopalian priest. I mean, I had
kind of, my career had kind of changed cause
I was going to an Episcopalian service, liked
it, so forth and so on. And, but, she's like,
“I don't think you're going to be a priest
Masud, but I think you might like the Bahá'í
Faith.” And she was the one that arranged
the introduction to a woman who I now refer
to as my spiritual mother, Jamila Canady,
who's a long-standing Bahá'í here in the
community and just a community servant, just
a wonderful servant. And that's how I began
my engagement with the Faith. Interesting,
the postscript to this story is that the woman
who I was dating, who I had asked to marry
me, who had said yes, she contracted breast
cancer and she died when she was 23, shortly
after introducing me to the Faith. So she
had gone to New York University to start a
graduate work, and found out she had breast
cancer and literally died within the year.
So that's a profound kind of dimension of
that story. Like she was on her way out, but
prior to her leaving, she was like, “I'm
going to open this door for you.” You know?
And so, yeah, I think about that quite often
when I reflect on that story and, you know,
what a key role that she played in me becoming
a Bahá'í, so…
And the faith answered a lot of those questions
for me, the oneness of mankind, which is the
core principle of the faith. That's the main
principle… of harmony of science and religion,
equality of women and men, spiritual solutions
to social-economic problems. So all of these
things resonated for me and seemed to answer
those questions that kept haunting me in my
previous experiences with religion.
And so, and that's how that journey, that
journey began, man, for me. Yeah.
Wow. Very cool. Thanks for sharing. You know,
I study a book called The URANTIA Book, which
is a Revelation, it's the Fifth Epochal Revelation.
And I study the Continuing Fifth Epochal Revelation,
these books called The Cosmic Family Volumes.
And there’s so many similarities between
the Bahá'í. And, you know, I don't consider
myself a part of any religion, or a religionist,
but I consider myself a religious man in the
true context of what it means to be religious.
But not in the, not in the dogma and the,
kind of the separations that you were talking
about that we see in so many of the religions,
and the isms and the schisms.
Yeah, absolutely.
It creates a lot of separation actually. And
I'd like to, I've always been very attracted
to the Bahá'í Faith and consider myself
Bahá'í in many ways, as far as my agreement
spiritually in my heart and soul with the
tenets of it. I was blessed to visit the Bahá'í
Temple in Chicago and had a really beautiful
experience there. And I've read a lot of the
teachings from the Bahá'í Faith. And so
oftentimes depending on what situation I'm
in, someone will ask me, “What's your spiritual
beliefs?” I'm like, “Well, you know, Bahá'í
is pretty much the closest thing. If you want
to label me something, label me Bahá'í.”
I read the The URANTIA Book and I think there's
truths in all religions, you know? And I think
there’s a lot of similarities in some of
these tenets, you know, Bahá'í talks about
the unity of science and religion and what
I study is called Ascension Science, and that’s
the fusion of spirituality and science…
And the importance that they're combined.
And there's such a separation in other religions,
as you mentioned. My parents actually founded
a university called The University of Ascension
Science and the Physics of Rebellion, and
so that's a similar teaching there. And then
of course equality of the sexes as men and
women. We have teachings about divine pattern
and the balance of man and woman both being
in leadership roles, and the Mother Spirit
and the Father Spirit. And of course, one
foundation for all religions and we have a
similar concept called “unity without uniformity”
and that’s what The URANTIA Book teaches.
My father, Gabriel of Urantia, has a quote:
“One God, one planetary family.” That’s
it.
I love that. I love that. I love that. Yeah.
A lot of similarities there brother that really,
you know, connect. And one thing too is I
was reading about the Universal House of Justice.
And of course we have the concept also, another
parallel concept, Divine Administration. It’s
an administration that governs the whole world,
that is divinely led. It’s divine, because
the human people are in contact and hearing
from God, and listening to God. And there's
a divine connection, you know, and that's
really important. My mother actually also
has been to the Bahá'í Temple, she sent
me… I told her I was going to be interviewing
you and she sent me this book here “World
Peace and World Government.” I've been kind
of skipping through this. You know,I really
appreciate how this was done because in my
own belief, personal beliefs, you know, I
have these, I'm very convicted, and committed
to what I believe in and passionate about
it.
And then there's a lot of... I do get into
a lot of debates with people sometimes, and
how to answer someone's questions, “well,
how does that solve the problem?” can be
difficult. And this is a really good way that
Tyson came up with, the Bahá'í approach
to world peace, and really the world government,
which I also believe in by the way, world
government; Divine Administration is what
we call it. And, there's a line in here that
stood out to me here, it says, “Some religious
people will claim that the creation of a world
government is insufficient to solve all of
the problems of humanity. Because a world
government can not address the spiritual element
of the problem. Bahá'í’s would wholeheartedly
agree with such a view. The spiritual development
of mankind is the ultimate solution to problems
induced by materialism.”
Yeah, absolutely.
In the words of Bahá'u'lláh, “The corrosion
of ungodliness is eating into the vitals of
human society. What else, but the elixir of
his potent revelation can cleanse and revive
it.” And so that to me, sums it up, that
it's about spiritual consciousness
Absolutely. Absolutely
The Spiritualution, it’s basically the same
thing as the Bahá'í faith of oneness, it's
the spiritual unity, it's the merge of the
word, spiritual and revolution and spiritual
and solution, a spiritualution. Spiritualution
is the Solution.
Oh, I love that love. Yeah. I love that.
My father created that in the early nineties,
man, Spiritualution is a, it's a consciousness
movement, man. So, that's what the Bahá'í
faith is talking about, man. It's all the
same, man. It's about one love.
Absolutely.
Having that consciousness together.
Yeah, yeah.
What do you, I think you'd, I mean, I know
you do a lot of work with, racism and educating
around that and you have that great talk,
“Erasing the Stain of Racism.” What do
you think it's gonna take for that spiritual
consciousness, on a mass level, to rise? Because
I have my opinions. I'm curious what you think,
what is it going to take for really a global
consciousness desire for a unified spiritual
consciousness?
Yeah. You know, man, it's so interesting because
you know, we spent… this quagmire of racism,
which in America we've been at for some 401
years, right? Which was predicated on, well,
it was developed in response to the challenge
of reconciling behavior with Christian teachings;
behavior that deviated from Christian teachings.
And was tied very much to the economic engine,
you know, here in America. So how do we get
free labor to, you know, pick the cotton,
you know, plant the cotton, cut the sugar
cane, cut the tobacco leaf and all of that.
And then racism, of course, develops out of
that as a way to justify the enslavement of
a group of people, of our brothers and sisters
who happened to be of African descent.
So we've been at this predicament for a long
time, for four centuries, and it's gonna require
a deep commitment, what the House of Justice
says, there are two qualities that are indispensable
to this work, which are “patience and perseverance.”
And patience in the sense of being patient
first with myself as I engage in this process,
right? That I am… that I recognize that
this is going to be the work that is gonna
require me to tolerate discomfort; to actually
consciously go into spaces that are uncomfortable
so I can engage in these conversations and
what, in the Bahá'í Faith, we call meaningful
conversations; meaningful connections, built
one-on-one between people and individuals.
So that you can break down some of these divisions.
So if I look in my circle of friends and I
say, and I take a, from a practical point
of view, I'd take a stock of my friendships.
And I say, “Man, all of my friends are African
American.” Well, that can become kind of
like an echo chamber. Right? And it doesn't
really... Am I really doing my part in helping
to break down these divisions by maintaining
a circle of friends that is exclusively from
my culture of origin? So I have to consciously
on a day to day basis question myself in regards
to my circle of friends, look at what am I
doing on a daily basis to help propel this
idea, this concept, the spiritual law of the
oneness of mankind, forward? And so one thing
I can do is to make sure that I'm building
those relationships across culture, across
social economic divides, across gender. So
I'm extending that circle, that pool of humanity,
right? That connective tissue. So I'm essentially,
what I'm doing, is playing catch up in a way
to the spiritual law. Right? I mean, the reality
is that we're one, that you and I are brothers.
Right? So if I am in some way, right? If I
come from a situation or environment that
has told me that that's not the reality, well,
I've got to get that stuff out of my system.
I got to spend a lifetime purging myself of
that poison. Because this reality is what
it is, that's not changing, you know? So I
have to play catch up. And then I, on… So
that's on an individual level. So those are,
those are the things that I'm interested in
doing on an individual level.
But then there is this kind of communal activity
that the Bahá'í community at large is engaged
in, which is something that we call the core
activities or a plan of action, which is about
spiritualizing our communities and our neighborhoods
through activities and initiatives like children's
classes, junior/youth gatherings, devotional
gatherings, junior/youth empowerment workshops.
And all of these are about really developing
meaningful relationships and connections with
people in your neighborhood, young people
as well as older people, people who are, you
know, similar to you in age, and doing it
around spiritual principles and laws; doing
it around the word of God. It's not about
converting anybody to Bahá'í or trying to
proselytize anybody about the Bahá'í Faith.
It really is about, let's see what we can
do as a community, right? These are some actions
that we can take that are centered around
the teachings of God, that can help us deepen
our relationships, that can help us develop
stronger connection, and have a healthier
community for everybody. You know, no matter
what your spiritual choice is, what you choose
to do, spiritually, whether you're a Christian,
Buddhist, Muslim, you're none of those things.
But these are some cohesive ways that we can
work to build a more unified community; extend
that pool of humanity, of brotherhood and
sisterhood, and heal this America of this
conundrum, this sickness, this malignancy
of race, which has perplexed us for 401 years.
So yeah.
Thanks brother. Oh, it's long overdue man.
It's time for that stuff to be dropped, you
know? I feel like we've gone a little backwards
the last four years, of course.
We have, we have
But in some ways it's actually accelerated
the awareness and the need… It's kind of
dug up some of that stuff that was buried,
not really buried, but you know what I mean?
Like it’s coming out in the country right
now, and it's the cleansing process. It's
the times that we live in.
I was going to ask you about, you know, being
Bahá'í… Have you ever experienced discrimination
for being Bahá'í? Cause I know from my own
personal standpoint, you know, I grew up in
a community. And early on we were called a
cult, you know, and so that was the bias.
And you know, I was having a conversation
with someone the other day… and I didn't
want to be presumptuous and say that I, as
a white man, could ever put myself in the
shoes and say, I know what it's like to be
a black, African American man, and be black,
and feel racism, and be called a n*gger, and
all these things. But I could understand discrimination
of that type of attitude, for being, you know,
“You're part of a Cult,” and this type
of discrimination, religious discrimination,
and the feelings of that. And it kind of occurred
to me like, wow, that's what it feels like.
Imagine that, but even worse, all the time.
That's what racism feels like, you know?
And you can't hide the color of your skin.
I can hide my religious belief. No one knows
what I believe until I start speaking, then
the discrimination comes out. And so I had
this profound experience of like. “Wow.”
You know, putting myself in the shoes of another
man, of another color, whether it's black,
Asian, you know any minority group… And
how that, you know… because I think that
white males, white people need to do that
to understand their white privilege. They
need to understand, because we don't understand
that we are privileged, right off the bat.
And when I started kind of consciously diving
into that I experienced a heartfelt, like,
wow, you know, that is what it's like, you
know…. I forgot what I was going to ask
you, but I'm going somewhere..
You were, you were saying you were, you were
saying, have I ever experienced discrimination
as a Bahá'í? Yeah.
Yes, thank you. Yeah, obviously racial discrimination,
but have you ever experienced a religious
discrimination?
Yeah. I mean, I would say skepticism, people
kind of looking at you kind of side eyed,
I've gotten some of that. People trying to
prove to you that you're wrong and they're
right. I'm fortunate, you know, as a Bahá'í,
because one of the core principles is independent
investigation of truth. So we all have a responsibility
to investigate the truth for ourselves and
then determine where we land on that. So,
you know, you can't be a Bahai’ because
your parents were of a Bahá'í. You can't
be a Bahá'í because, you know, you were
born into a Bahá'í family. That really is
dependent on your own investigation of the
writings of Bahá'u'lláh. And then you make
a decision, you know, and that is to be encouraged,
it's a spiritual law, and to be encouraged
in everybody. The Bahá'í, you know, beyond
some of the mechanics of being a Bahá'í,
like a believer in Bahá'u'lláh and his station
of teachings of Bahá'u'lláh, at its core
the high faith means seeker of the truth or
seeker of the light.
So wherever you find that light, and that
truth, and that reality, embrace it, you know?
And this is why, you know, we have to be…
This whole thing with other religions, sometimes
when they get into, “Well, it's our way
or the highway,” or “If you don't believe
this way, you're going to hell,” and all
of this. And you know, when some Christians
say that about Muslims, I'm like, there's
a billion Muslims in the world. They can't
all be wrong. Now, there is something profound
in The Quran that they found that speaks to
their heart. When I read The Quran I find
some beautiful writings in The Quran. It speaks
truth to me. I can go and I can read some
of the quotes from indigenous communities
and they speak to me in the same way. You
know, I can read some African Proverbs, they
speak to me in the same way. So that's the
light of truth. And I think the heart, as
Khalil Gibran says, you know, “No man can
reveal to you aught of that which lies already
half asleep in the dawning of your knowledge.”
You know, and then goes on to say… He talks
about rhythm, and he talks about how the truth
is “like a rhythm that plucks the strings
of the heart.”
And, you know, so, I mean, it's like we know
it's something that is beyond words that can't
be quantified in language, that can't be proven
in terms of a scientific experiment in a lab.
You know, when you come face to face with
it. And that's what I always want to be open
to and to continue to cultivate is that awareness,
that listening ear that is able to hear that
rhythm, and have my heart respond to the reality
of that.
So, yeah. You know, in short I've received,
certainly some side eyes, some suspicion,
but, you know, I'm fairly clear about where
I am and you know, you just love people, man.
People are where they are and if that's where
they are and they have a hard time opening
their eyes and… you just have to love them
through that, man, you know, and that's all
you can do.
Life is so much more pleasant when we just
accept where other people are at. Not that
you're complacent or you allow evil, but not
trying to force things, you know, and you
love them through it. It takes a lot of stress?
It’s cool you mentioned Gibran because he's
a huge hero of mine in his work, and he's
got that quote: “Your pain is the breaking
of the shell that encompasses your understanding.”
That is such a big one that we have to realize
that we get in our mental and our consciousness
comfort zones and it's painful to kind of
break out of those. You said a couple of things
in a speech that I've watched a few times
cause it was so good, “Erasing the Stain
of Racism” speech, and wanted to pull up
something here. You said, I'm kind of paraphrasing
here, but, “Whatever affects one directly
affects all indirectly.” And that really
stood out to me because that's another parallel
of something I believe from The URANTIA Book
and it says: “Throughout the universe, every
unit is regarded as a part of the whole. Survival
of the part is dependent on cooperation with
the plan and purpose of the whole. The wholehearted
desire and perfect willingness to do the Father's
divine will.”
Yeah, yeah. I love that. I love that. Yeah,
it's interesting because it reminds me of
the whole idea of tossing a pebble into a
pool of water, and those ripples extend from
the center. And the entire pond at some point
is impacted by those ripples. And so nothing
that we do is in isolation, we're all interconnected.
So that is always something… And that quote
that I said in that talk comes from the poet,
John Donne, who Dr. King used to often quote.
I just thought he phrased it so beautifully
and so perfectly about our inherent interconnectedness.
And how you know, we may attempt to block
ourselves off, to close our borders, to build
walls, but the reality is a virus can find
its way through those walls. Love can burst
through those walls, you know? So there's
no way really of closing ourselves off completely.
We are interconnected. And, so, you know,
I love that, man. And it's the fact that,
you know, that knowing that my identity, my
first identity is spiritual in nature, that's
my primary identity. My secondary identity
is my culture of origin, it's the fact that
I'm male, it's the fact that I'm an artist.
Those are all secondary identities. But the
thing I foreground when I enter a space, is
that primary identity first. And so the thing
that allows me to look at everybody and say:
“Oh, there's my sister. Oh, that's my aunt
over there. Oh, that's my mom. That's my dad
over there.” It's that interconnectedness
that, you know, that is such an essential
aspect; the foundational element of being
a human being that connects us all. So yeah.
That’s beautiful. I like the way you phrase
that, your primary identity and your secondary
identity. That's consciousness that allows
you to be a unifier and not a seperator. And
so many of us in this Western culture… Really
all over the world, humanity, I think humans
are raised not even consciously, but raised
the wrong way… To be separators, to see
the differences, not to see, you know, the
similarities, what unifies us. And it does
take a spiritual God-consciousness to see,
“Oh, I am a spiritual being under a loving
creator and we're all created beings. Therefore,
everybody's my brother and sister.”
Exactly.
Everybody is my mother and my uncle. And it's
such, actually, a refreshing and beautiful
mindset when you find others who share it.
Then you have cosmic family, you have a family,
a spiritual family. That’s another thing
we call our community is the cosmic family.
Because, even though the guy down the street
may not be my blood brother, he's my brother,
you know. And we actually treat ourselves
like that spiritual family and the same loyalty,
and the same commitment in the same family-first
type of attitude one would have with a biological
blood family, you have with your spiritual
brothers and sisters, and really it can extend
across the whole world. And that’s the principle
of Bahá'í is talking about world government,
because when each person has that consciousness
in their heart and that God-consciousness,
then you don't see the walls, you don't see
the separations. And it seems like a kind
of a farfetched, idealistic dreamer-type mentality
for those who haven't experienced it. For
brothers like you and I who have experienced
it, it doesn't seem as far fetched. Because
if I can just take what I'm experiencing and
help one other person experience it, and then
they experience it, and they're there and
that can spread. And that's the consciousness
of love, brother, you know, that's, that's
where it’s at...
Exactly. I mean, division is the illusion.
Unity is the reality. And that is… when
I think of my body and I think of how my body
is composed. I have all of these cells, all
of these organs that work together in unison
to maintain this majestic dynamic, extraordinary
machine. So they have to work in unison. So
we think about the human family, the body
politic is made up of individuals who operate
like cells in the body, if we’re doing…
if we’re in alignment... Right? And we recognize
that oneness, we will find ways to work together
and recognize that what is good for my brother
and my sister, right, fundamentally is also
good for me. What is bad for me is also bad
for my brother and sister. So in order for
us to function collective as a human family,
you have to recognize that interdependence.
Interdependence, man, it's a key concept too.
My spiritual teacher, Gabriel of Urantia,
he renamed Independence day, Interdependence
Day.
I love that. I love that.
We would have these events on Independence
Day instead of being really nationalistic
and flying the flag and being all about that.
We would have Interdependence and we would
celebrate how each one of us human beings
is interdependent upon our brothers and sisters
all over the place, and celebrating that,
you know, rejoicing in it. It's a beautiful
thing.
Absolutely. Absolutely. I love that brother,
love that.
You said a few things today and also in some
of your talks that I've seen online and some
of the stuff I've read. That really speaks
to me in my belief too kind of about the duality
of man and woman, and how we, as spiritual
beings, are always trying to overcome our
human nature and our spiritual nature. This
is my wording, you know? And in your wording,
you talked about… You have that talk, “The
Stony and Glorious Path Towards Oneness.”
And I talked about, you know, the duality
of man and we're yearning to come into singularity,
into unity, to rid ourselves of that duality
of our animal… human nature battling our
spiritual nature until we come into singularity,
and it's just spiritual nature. The reason
why I like the “stony and glorious path”
is because it is stony and it's a hard path
to get to that point. And it takes, it takes
a lot of work. And as a man yourself, you
know, I've been doing a lot of exploration
of correcting wrong thinking as a male. And
even though I was raised right, I was totally
raised right. Great father, great mother,
spiritually God-centered, taught me right.
I still have absorbed the wrong thinking of
the entire world. And so I have to correct
the chauvinistic thinking, the machoism as
a man. And I think, you know, in seeing you
speak and reading your work, I find you to
be a balanced, strong man, which I appreciate.
You have natural leadership qualities. And
I think that I… when I view a lot of men
today, there's a tremendous imbalance. They've
become what I would consider personally, weak
and not inheriting… personalizing the concept
of what it means to be a strong man, or they
become… they're just macho and they're way
too, out of balance. What would you have to
say to speaking towards young men and you
know how to become a balanced man? And what
does it mean to you, actually, to be a spiritual
God, man?
Yeah, man. That's such a great question. I
love the way you framed it. You know, it's
interesting because I mean, historically,
you know, if we look at the way that men have
been socialized as opposed to how women have
been socialized, you know, we have ascribed
emotionalism, intuition, those qualities to
women while men are competitive, aggressive...
Stoic.
...Exactly, stoic. You know, and of course
we know the problems that have resulted from
that. We have women who have been locked out
of positions of leadership because they are
deemed to be fundamentally incapable of occupying
a boardroom, or a prime minister's office,
or a president's office, you know. And then
we have men who are, you know, deal with things
like heart disease, high blood pressure, who
are struggling to maintain this kind of stoicism
that is fundamentally at odds with the emotional
interiority of their lives. They reject their
emotional interiority because we do have one,
you know, men do have that. And then we're
also not encouraged to develop our capacity
to be intuitive as well, because I know many
men who actually recognize that they have
intuitive capabilities and actively work to
develop those.
So. You know, it really puts us at odds with
this other dimension of ourselves. Women are
not allowed to be ambitious in our society.
You know, that is a quality that is almost,
you know, exclusively reserved for male energy,
you know? And when a woman expresses her ambition,
she is often called a lot of derogatory names
or referred to as being mean or, you know,
what do you tell, “You're irresponsible…
You're an irresponsible mother. What do you
mean you are ambitious?” You know? So I
think as we, you know…
The Bahá'í Faith has this wonderful concept
about man and woman are like the right and
left wings of a bird, and in order for that
bird to fly steady, both of those wings need
to be strong. So we have to find a way, men
do (and I'm speaking because I'm a man) have
to find a way to integrate those aspects of
what historically society has taught us to
reject. There's nothing unmanly about expressing
your love for your children; about hugging
and kissing your children. There's nothing
unmanly in moments of great anguish or pain
and crying out to God, pouring your heart,
you know, on the altar of God and saying,
“I don't know what to do in this moment.
Help me. Show me the way.” You know? There's
nothing unmanly about, you know, listening
to your inner voice, recognizing that there's
something operating beyond the intellect,
you know? As the old African proverb says:
“There's a difference between a knowing
and the knowing.” You know, so we have to
begin to not see these things as mutually
exclusive, but interdependent. And I think
as we move forward and we mature as a human
family there will be less of that dichotomy.
There will be less of that unintegrated, you
know, less of that tension, that kind of dissonance
between the male energy and the female energy.
And there will be more of an integration that
will allow men to express their emotional
interiority when the moment is right. When
they're in a moment and they need to express
it. And allow women to be ambitious without
feeling that they will be labeled as being
a “bitch.”
No, I appreciate that man. Beautiful insight.
Yeah, it just, it really stood out to me.
Again, watching your talk. I was like, “I
like this guy because he's decisive. He’s
passionate. He’s bold and he's not afraid
to, you know, be a man,” basically. You
know, and I do think that there's a bit of
a fear now. It’s gone to the other end of
the spectrum, actually for men to exhibit
what we culturally would consider manly qualities;
the decisiveness, the passion, the absoluteness,
you know? Because there has been such an imbalance
and most men have taken it too far and you
know, and so I've been having conversations
with different people on my podcast. I'm going
to be on another show called “Manly Matters.”
And just exploring this, but what's interesting
is the men I've been talking to her my age,
you know, 30. So I appreciate talking to a
man like you who's been around longer, and
who I consider to appear balanced in your
male circuitry as a man. So I appreciate that,
brother.
Brother I appreciate you, man. Thank you.
I appreciate your insight there.
You know the thing, dude, this is another
aspect of it, man… There is a difference
between men and women. We are different, but
the difference is not, it doesn't mean that
one's better than the other. It's just different
and we need both, you know, we need both.
Do you find in the African American culture…
I was having this conversation too with someone
the other day we were talking about, you know,
I'm Italian American, my father's side, Italian.
And so obviously we're passionate. We show
affection, culturally, no problem, men kiss
each other. We hug each other. We tell, we
love each other all the time. That's how I
was raised. In other, you know, cultures,
it's very strange for a man to kiss another
man or to say, even to say, “I love you”
to another man, their best friend, “I love
you, buddy. I love you, man.” Which I find
it so strange because I tell my brothers,
I love them all the time, “Man, I love you.”
I’d kiss them on the cheek, if I have to,
you know? It just shows what a cultural upbringing
- how it really affects inherently how we
behave as men. In the African American culture,
do you find that there's a more prevailing
anger and machoism because of the trans-generational
trauma really to them and the oppression?
And this is just my... I ask this question
because I've kind of viewed it as that sometimes,
that there’s a deep inner anger, and you
see that and then you see… It's interesting.
And this is a touchy subject, so I could easily
be misunderstood here by saying these things,
but I'm taking the risk, you know? Some of
my Native American brothers and sisters, my
indigenous brothers and sisters, there's the
same time of oppression, but they're not quite
as in the machoism and anger, they're more
in the hopelessness and they feel defeated
as a man. And so I’ve just observed these
things, culturally and historically, I'm not
saying it's across the board, it’s just
something that I've been curious about and
ask you if you've observed that or feel that
way.
No, very much so. I think you've delineated
quite effectively. You know, it's interesting
because when… I’ve been spending a lot
of time in Canada and so when I go to Canada,
there aren't many African Americans in the
part of Canada that I go to. But there are
a lot of Indigenous Canadians, or First Nations
Canadians. And as soon as I meet them there's
an understanding, an unspoken understanding.
It's an understanding that I know your struggle,
you know my struggle. But the expression of
that struggle is different, you know, across
cultures. I think in the African American
community, there’s…
Well, both cultures share a deep seated mistrust
of the dominant culture, because their trust
has been broken so many times; agreements,
promises, have been broken. So over a time
that gets solidified within your consciousness
and you just… There's a sense of hopelessness
or just… in a perpetual state of feeling
like you're being surveilled and feeling like
someone is watching you all the time. And
part of that, you know, part of that is based
in reality and part of it sometimes exists
in it's… It's not in reality, you know,
but it's based on some historical truths.
And it's just in muscle memory. So people
react/respond that way, you know? And I think
in the Indigenous community, because so much
was taken from them and they still live on
land that they know was, or around land, or
they remember the land, you know, they can
get around and they can see the land. So there's
a sense of defeat, a sense of kind of, you
know, our land was stolen. We were removed
from our communities. Our hair was cut. We
were not allowed to speak our language. We
were placed in these reeducation schools.
Alcohol was introduced to our community. And
we were kept in a perpetual state of poverty,
of impoverished conditions. So over time that
does some profound damage to the psyche, which
impacts how we think about ourselves, how
they move through the world, you know? So,
I think that sense of, kind of, defeat and,
kind of, deep despair comes from that.
African Americans it’s a little bit different,
because we were removed from the continent
of Africa, we're not... we don't have this…
We're not constantly assaulted by a visual
image of what we had before or where we came
from. Indeed, those realities were cut off
systematically by the system of slavery. So
your name was taken, your language was taken,
all of that. But there's not the constant
assault, it's not the visual assault of land,
of the spaces that we came from. So that exists,
but it exists in a kind of opaque, a kind
of clouded, sometimes romantic vision that
we have of where we came from with… Because
we don't know the specific place. And also
the brutality of the slavery system, which
was so systematic, I mean, the emasculation
of black men, the fact that the owner of the
plantation would come in and bed your wife,
and there's nothing you can do about it. The
fact you were beaten if you showed any resistance
whatsoever, and even beyond that, sometimes
strung up and killed, or shot, or some other
kind of way you are offed. So, that constant
repression of the natural male inclination
to defend your loved ones and indeed your
sense of self, to have to constantly stamp
that stuff and keep it repressed within you
allows… That energy begins to boil over
and it begins to be expressed when it can
be expressed sometimes in unhealthy ways.
So, you will see in certain aspects of the
black community, you know, there will be physical
violence within the home. You will see high
blood pressure. You'll see a lot of diabetes,
a lot of heart disease, because there's this
inability to historically grapple with those
really profound emotions, angers, sadnesses
that your family‘s experienced generationally
and that they have not been allowed to process
and express in a healthy way… And that gets
passed down from generation to generation.
So there's a lot of love in the black community.
There's a lot of compassion and affection,
but I would be, it would be disingenuous of
me to deny the fact that yes, there is also
those unhealthy, toxic forms of masculinity
that also get expressed sometimes. So, yeah.
Wow, well thanks man. You have an incredibly
well rounded view of the spiritual, psychological,
and historical aspects that affect everything
of the current psyche today, you know, really
well rounded. I appreciate that.
Thank you.
You know, my mother Niann Emerson Chase, who's
a spiritual teacher as well, and she's a writer.
She grew up on a Native American reservation,
San Carlos Apache reservation. And so I spent
time as well, learning about the culture there
and attending ceremonies there. And my father
also has been very involved with Native American
elders over time and has done ceremonies and
has met a lot of the well-known native American
Elders. And so I've been exposed to that culture
and I've been in these Inipis, the purification
lodges, at a young age and different ceremonies.
And what I saw was… it's just hard to, it
is what you basically, you said, it's the
generational trauma, and it's the father has
the son and it gets passed down and not even
consciously. But the sadness, the oppression,
the anger, and also the righteous anger, the
righteous sadness. And trying to teach your
children your heritage, your culture, and
also not to teach the rest is… It's a very
interesting thing and I've had, kind of, round
table discussions with young Native American
men before who are quite impassioned and have
their anger, rightfully so. And honestly I
relate to them, you know, I feel one of them
and I feel one of the young black brothers
too. I feel like I'm one of them, even though
I am not. And so I don't want to be presumptuous
to say I am because I haven't had those same
experiences, but my heart connects with them.
You know, I totally get it. I’m a freedom
fighter and I want to fight for them, you
know? So I look to the spiritual answers of
these problems and I look to how… What can
I do to connect, or to teach, or to help,
or to even understand? Maybe just be a good
listener, maybe have compassion. I think people
think they're better listeners all the time
than they actually are. I know I do. And then
when I actually…
Right there with you!
When I actually listen and ask the question
and really hear them, and the listening part
and the hearing part is really penetrating
my soul, and what is it that they're saying
that I can find a similarity to, relate to,
and have compassion for, or even change me
and even better yet, correct me if my thinking
is wrong or aiding in their pain, you know?
That's the responsibility that we all have
to come into that spiritual unity and that
oneness, you know, if humanity, we have to
heal those constructs. I think that you have
a great grasp on that man. So I think you
can do a lot of great work. I think you should
help. I think you are helping them, but I
see you as a kind of… you could be a great
mentor for young men in your community and
really talking them through that and being
role model. And you are a role model and you
probably already are doing it through your
art and you are doing it. But I could just
see you, like, you know, really leading the
way for that healing to take place. So I appreciate
it, man.
Thank you brother. The, you know, encouragement
is such an important apparatus for community
building that we don't access enough and we
need to be constantly encouraging each other
in our work. So, man, for you to say that
I'm honored and it encourages me to keep pushing
brother, just to keep pushing.
Yeah, yeah.
Another question I had for you, you know we
talked about the Bahá'í and the oneness
of humanity. What are your thoughts on the,
on the amalgamation of all the races? You
know I was reading about you and that you
have Irish in you and what are your thoughts
about the intermixing of, you know, cause
I've always thought one way (this is obviously
a long term thing) but one way to heal this
is to intermarry, all the time. And there’s
part of a culture, that's the consciousness
that's wrong. Where I have friends who are
Jewish, “you got to marry a Jewish person,
no matter what,” you know? African American
friends, you gotta marry that. Native American
and keep the culture. Part of me can understand
that pride of wanting to extend your genes
of your race, you know? Even as an Italian
sometimes I'm like, “Oh, it'd be nice to
marry an Italian woman and keep the Italian
genes going.”
Right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.
Overcoming that consciousness and how we’re
raised to really amalgamate.
Yeah. Well, you know, it's not… First of
all, it's not practical. There aren't enough
people available in all of those brackets
to constantly find a partner that's going
to match up. So that's, there's just a practical
problem with that, you know, on the surface.
But yeah, absolutely, man. I think one of
the most profound ways to effect change just,
symbolically, is to marry across culture.
Now again, I'm not saying, I don't, I want
to be clear. I've seen some extraordinary
marriages between people from the same culture…
Of course, yeah.
They're committed, they're spiritually deepened,
they're connected and they're, they can, they
have valuable lessons to teach all of us about
partnership.
So I don't want to diminish those relationships,
but certainly one of the most profound ways
to make a statement to the world about the
issue of race, the illusion of racism, the
fact that it's only a social construct, it's
not a biological reality, is by intermarrying,
you know, by choosing to marry someone who's
outside of your cultural origin. And also,
you know, I mean, the children are really,
if they're integrated, if they understand
that they're, that within them exists these
two streams, these two pools of humanity,
that they can be a powerful example of what's
possible when different worlds, different
experiences, come together. So, you know,
I'm blessed. I, you know, you know, a woman
that I'm close to is from another culture
and I feel so enriched by that relationship.
The fact that she questions me, right? In
ways that I previously probably wouldn't have
been questioned. I mean, she helps me to think
about things in a broader way and I think
I do the same thing for her. And I think as,
you know, as long as we foreground that spiritual
reality as being our primary identity and
then we also have a deep, a deep and abiding
sense that it is our diversity that adds to
the richness and the beautiful complexity
of the human family, right? That God didn't
choose to make us all one shape and there's
a reason for that. He wanted a diversity of
visual expressions, you know, in His… through
creativity. And there's something about being
able to see that diversity and then to understand
that all of that is part of the human family
and that pallet, that color palette, which
extends all the way from blue-black, all the
way to treble white, you know, is beautiful.
All of those colors in between, it’s beautiful
and adds to the richness. So I think it's
a wonderful, wonderful opportunity to extend
that sense of community; to tear down those
walls that separate us, and to build, you
know, a diverse and inclusive society. So
I think it's a wonderful thing, brother. I
really do.
I didn't always think that, man. If I'm being
transparent. I did not, I was one who consciously
dated black women exclusively who thought
I would always marry a black woman. And there
was some of that, that you were talking about
was in me… That, you know, man, I gotta
keep it - keep this strong for the brothers
and sisters. You know what I'm saying? I mean,
there, you know, I gotta marry a strong black
woman. But, what I began to realize was that
phenotype, culture of origin are limited constructs
for something that is limitless, which is
love. So with my love is based on a limited
construct, then I'm not being consistent with
the power, the transcendence, the divinity
of love.
Absolutely. That’s on point, man. I like
that.
Yeah, yeah. Brother.
That’s on point.
Yeah, yeah.
Cool. What do you think? (not what do you
think) But, does the Bahá'í faith have any
teachings about what I call the end times?
The purification times that I, personally,
think we're in on this planet right now. A
lot of religions talk about, you know, the
rapture or the end of time, so to speak. Hopi
Prophecy gets into it a lot in the signs that
will dictate that. A lot of religions talk
about the return of their Messiah, whatever
Messiah may be in their various religions.
To me it’s more of a general understanding
that the times that we're in right now is
where I think we're in those tribulation times.
Absolutely. You know, the Bahá'í theology
in regards to this issue of an afterlife and
end times, it’s interesting because, you
know, religious truth, religious narratives,
particular Biblical narratives, Koronic narratives,
Hindu narratives, Buddhist narratives... They're
written in the language of metaphor and allegory.
So they’re stories that have a deeper meaning
and that are symbolic, right? So in Revelations,
some of the fantastical stories of Revelations,
using our intellect, which is a gift from
God, by the way, you know, a lot of people
have issue with that, but it is… And logic,
one knows that those verbatim… the way those
stories are told verbatimly, if that's the
way you took them, they don't make logical
sense. So if that's the case, what is the
deeper spiritual meaning here? What's the
lesson that I'm meant to take from this narrative?
When Christ says: “It is easier for a rich
man to enter the…” What is it?
A camel. “It's easier for a camel to go
through the eye of a needle…”
Yeah. “...than for a rich man to enter the
kingdom of heaven.” That's a metaphor. There’s
an allegory there. There's a deeper spiritual
meaning, you know, that that's hidden, you
know, that's operating beneath that… you
know, that very visual image, right? So these
deeper meanings are couched in these fantastical
tales, which are told to grip us to, you know,
to captivate the mind and the spirit, and
then upon meditation, reflection, we get the
deeper meaning, right?
So in Bahá'í theology, Bahá'u'lláh says
that this idea of an afterlife is really,
he makes it very practical and what he says
was regard, you know... Humanity comes from
God, creation comes from God. So our ultimate
sense of heaven, or paradise, is in our relationship
to God and our closeness to God. Because you're
getting back to your Source of Creation. Now,
if we have led a life that is meaningful.
If we have led a life of service. If we have
tried to make the world a better place because
of our presence on this planet. If we have
been faithful in our relationships. If we
have done work that is meaningful that helps
to extend, you know, humanity's awareness
and understanding of their place in the world…
That we enter this next phase of our existence,
which is beyond the human body, right? Where
that limited, that corpus, that flesh structure
of cells, we no longer need it. The soul wants
to be free so it can fly, you know? And when
we enter that realm of existence beyond the
physical, we are prepared just as a child
is prepared when they enter the world and
they have all of their functioning limbs,
they're able to see, they can hear, they're
prepared for the world, the physical reality.
If we've lived a good life, when we exit the
physical reality we're prepared for the spiritual
reality.
On the other hand, if we have not led a productive
life. If we have consciously chosen to do
things that would hurt people. If we have
been disloyal in our friendships. If we have
engaged in work that is destructive and not
constructive... then we enter that next phase
of existence, which is spiritual, deeply handicapped,
and separated from the Source of our Creation.
Hell… which is hell. Because you want to
get back to the Source and if you’re kept
from the Source, that's a stasis of hell.
So it's that, for me, I found that aspect
of the Bahá'í teaching deeply satisfying,
for me, because it took it out of the fantastical
and made it very practical and seem very logical
to me, you know?
Absolutely, yeah, I like what you said about,
you know, hell is anytime that we're out of
the will of our Father, our Creator. That’s
our hell. It’s not some burning place we're
going, you know, at the end of our life here
in the human form. Hell is moment to moment.
We can choose to be in hell. You know, I could
walk out of this interview and be in hell
because my consciousness took me there.
Absolutely. Brother. Absolutely.
Anytime I deny the love of my Creator and
the responsibility to recognize that and act
in it and then share that, I'm in hell.
Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely.
So man, you're also an actor, which is pretty
cool. I'm an actor. I'd love to be doing more
acting. I've been doing some auditions. I
was doing auditions before the global pandemic
hit, over in New Mexico, which is like the
closest… You know, but you're in Atlanta
where they shoot a lot of movies, right? A
ton. It's like the Hollywood of the East.
Yeah, it's crazy.
Tell me about how you got into acting. I guess
you did some theater when you were younger?
Yeah. You know, man, that story, man, it's
really interesting ‘cause it really was
a very… it was like an intersection of like
opportunity and like just risk-taking. Because,
I didn't, you know, and when I was in grade
school I did a few school plays, nothing serious,
“Princess and the Frog.” I did a production
of “Raising the Sun” when I was in school.
But certainly there was nobody in my immediate
surroundings who was a professional actor.
I had no context around me to know what that
journey looked like or what you’re even
supposed to do. But when I was in grad school
I did a little bit of modeling in grad school,
nothing serious. And then I answered an ad
in the newspaper for a play called “The
Meeting” which is about a fictitious meeting
between Malcolm X and Dr. Martin Luther King
Jr. Written by a very talented playwright
named Jeff Stetson. And I got cast as Malcolm
X. The play goes on and it got really good
reviews, and I was able to get an agent, and
then started doing some auditions. Then that's
how it built. And then I got into television
hosting because I did a play here in Atlanta
called “Four Days of Fury: the Atlanta Race
Riots of 1906.” Unbeknownst to me in the
audience that night, one night for one of
the presentations, one of the plays, one of
the performances, was the president of Georgia
Public Broadcasting. She liked what I did
in the play and she invited me to work on
a production that they were putting together.
And from there, I got an audition for
Retro Report and that's how I got on Retro
Report. And so this thing just, you know…
There's a mystical thing, the whole time I'm
going through this process, brother, I'm like,
I know I'm doing my part, but there's something
operating here, which I don't fully understand,
but I know it's operating. So I just got to
kind of let this thing go and just see where
it kind of takes me.
So, and that's how it's gone, man. That's
how it's going. Yeah,
Well it sounds like you made right choices
along the way, that it was manifested in the
spiritual realm for you, you know?
Yeah, absolutely.
I think sometimes we can try too hard to make
something happen, and we get ourselves in
the way. And it seems like, you know, it's
a destiny calling for you and you have the
persona, you have the self-confidence, that,
it kind of just fell into place. I'd like
to see that play, man. Is it recorded anywhere?
No, unfortunately it's not, man. Yeah, we
didn't record it, but, it was so much fun
doing Malcolm X, man, it was awesome. It was
awesome.
I recall seeing one of your art pieces, that
was… the name of it was a play on something
King said and something in Malcolm X said,
what was it?
“The Ballot or the Bullet.”
Yeah, the ballot or the bullet. Yeah, that
was a cool piece man. Well, one day aspire
to, you know, we have our own media company
here in our community called Global Change
Media, founded by my father, Gabriel of Urantia.
And the idea is that we would put out films,
and we're going to put out films, that are
uplifting, that are spiritual, that are communicating...
That's wonderful.
They’re not going to be like the cheesy,
you know, Christian films when you watch it
and you're just like “What…?” They're
going to be real, you know… Because, spiritual
life, man, is a struggle and it's real.
Yeah, no doubt.
It can be bloody. It can be whatever it is
in people's lives that’s going on, it’s
not fluffy, you know? Loving God and serving
God is not always fluffy. Most of the time
it’s actually not.
Absolutely.
I’d like to find out where it is fluffy
and maybe go there, but I don't think it exists.
Yeah. Yeah. Maybe if you find it, let me know.
I will. We'll go together. We’ll take a
road trip, man.
Absolutely. Yeah, I love that.
Kick back in the fluffiness and just relax.
I heard that. I heard that.
That’s when Jesus comes back to the planet,
maybe...
Right.
Things will get restored, you know?
Yeah. Yeah.
Cool. Well I really appreciate your time,
man, and talking to you.
It's been awesome.
One last question I had for you. I could talk
to you all day, but...
Yeah, man. Me too.
I’ll probably have you on my podcast again
in a few months.
You let me know, brother. I'll be there.
You seem to be very well read and you have
a great understanding. I really like how you
bring a historic context into everything.
Are there any books or literature or writers
that you would recommend to our listeners
to check out; to read? Or for me, personally…
I'm interested.
Yeah. I mean, there's something.
Howard Zinn, “A People's History of the
United States,” I read that in high school
and I've continued to read it ever since and
it really has opened up a whole other understanding
about the history of the United States and
stuff.
Yeah. Yeah. There's so many, man. I mean,
I'm reading David Blight's masterful treatment
of the life of Frederick Douglas right now,
which is really powerful. So I definitely
recommend that. Gosh, I mean if you're looking
for the history of African American people
in this country, I would say “The Warmth
of Other Suns” is brilliant. It is about
the migration of black people to the North
from the deep South during the years after
reconstruction and the violence visited upon
the black community by the Ku Klux Klan; lack
of opportunity. So that's a brilliant book.
I also recommend “The New Jim Crow” is
brilliant as well by Michelle Alexander. That's
a wonderful book. So a fabulous book written
by a friend of mine, Dr. Joy DeGruy, the book
called, what is it, “Post Traumatic Slave
Syndrome” which is also quite extraordinary.
And, you know, these are historical books
that I've been engaged with. You know, if
you're looking for a great fiction, I mean,
the list can go on for days.
I love Toni Morrison. I love Shakespeare.
That's a broad range of things, but historical
books… those are really good.
“The Half Has Never Been Told” it's another
good one.
“Stamped from the Beginning” is another
powerful book. So those are a few that I definitely
recommend, yeah.
Thank you, yeah. What about spiritual study?
Oh, gosh, again, that's a long list, man.
I mean, I tell you when I was back in my days
before I became Bahá'í, a book that was
very influential for me was “The Road Less
Traveled” by M. Scott Peck.
Great book, man.
Love that book. I love, amongst the Bahá'í
text, The Kitáb-i-Íqán which is about the
concept of progressive revelation, which talks
about the different manifestations of God
that have come through time. So it's about
the interconnectedness of religion and spirituality,
which is a wonderful book. I love, oh gosh.
There's so many. I love Bradshaw, which is
not an inherently spiritual book, but I think
it's a deep dive in the human personality,
and understanding, “Focus on the Family”
by Bradshaw, it’s a great book, it came
out in the nineties. Oh man. There's so many.
You gave us a good list right there.
There’s so many, but those are some good
ones to kind of pick through, really good.
Yeah.
I'm feeling led to ask this too, do you…
does the Bahá'í faith have any prayers that
you memorize or...
Oh, gosh. Yeah.
Could you close out our session with a prayer?
or maybe even your own personal prayer, if
you want.
Sure. I mean, there's one that I'm thinking
about. Let me see if I can remember how it
goes. Oh yeah. It's from Shoghi Effendi, one
of the central figures of the faith and it
basically captures, pretty much, everything
we've been talking about in our discussion
today.
Love it, man.
And it says: “They whose hearts have been
warmed by the energizing influence of God's
creative love, cherish His creatures for His
sake and recognize in every human face, a
sign of His reflected glory.”
Yeah brother. Thank you, man.
Love you, man. You got it, brother. Love your
spirit brother.
Great way to end it there, great prayer. I
love your spirit too. It's a great honor to
have you on my podcast. I appreciate you sharing
your experience, your wisdom, your art, your
creativity, your mind with myself and all
the listeners, man. It was a good one. I really
appreciate it.
Okay, man. Thank you for doing, for the work
that you're doing, brother. It's important.
And I just want to encourage you man, to keep
it going. And all you gotta do is call, brother.
I'll be present.
Much love. Thank you.
You got it, man. We'll talk, take care.
Take it easy.
Check out my website at http://getrealordietrying.com
Leave me a voicemail on Anchor at Anchor.fm/getrealordietrying
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"Get Real or Die Trying with Amadon DellErba"
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And remember: "Pain is Temporary. Victory
is Eternal."
