hi this is glory saint-germain from
ultimate music theory and you're
listening to the musicality podcast ever
wondered why some people seem to have a
gift for music have you ever wished that
you could play by ear sing in tune
improvise and jam you're in the right
place time to turn those bushes into
reality
welcome to the musicality podcast with
your host Christopher Sutton hi this is
Christopher founder of musical u and
welcome to the musicality podcast I
always love when a guest we have on the
show is hugely passionate about their
subject of expertise and I think that
goes double when the subject is music
theory that's because it's a subject
that can be so wonderful but is so often
taught in a dry boring way much like the
ear training that we focus on a lot of
musical you so when I discover a music
theory educator who can bring it to life
and make it fun and easy and effective
that is really exciting
glory saint-germain is one of those
people the ultimate music theory program
which she created and continues to
co-author is one of the most widely used
and well-respected resources for music
teachers to learn to teach theory and
when I say that you might be thinking
about dry mathematical type material or
very serious and academic but nothing
could be further from the truth this is
a program that teaches the true
fundamentals and everything that's
important to know but as you'll hear in
this episode glory has a real knack for
bringing it to life and making it a
genuine pleasure to learn one quick
thing to explain glory makes mention of
the AR CT which stands for Associate of
the Royal Conservatory that's a teaching
qualification provided by the Royal
Conservatory of Music in Canada in this
conversation we talk about the three
ways to learn music theory and why most
people are missing out by just using one
we discuss how the combination of
practical learning growing up and formal
study later on let glory understand
the pot and more importantly the why of
music theory and she shares one
neglected practice which can help you
learn 30 to 40 percent faster my name is
Christopher Sutton and this is the
musicality podcast from musical u
welcome to the show glory thank you for
joining us today the well thank you so
much I'm so excited to be here so you
are known as one of the world's experts
in music theory and in teaching music
theory was that something that came
naturally to you we use someone for whom
music was just always very clear and
systematic and obvious or what were your
early music experiences like well it
definitely did not come easy to me I
probably was not the brightest light
bulb in the package so to speak but I
had a passion to learn and my early
beginning with music actually started
with my father he was a
multi-instrumentalist and it was like
breathing and brushing your teeth it
just was not an option you you were
learning music and so I was very blessed
to grow up in that musical family and my
father who was not a professional
musician but he was as you are a
multi-instrumentalist and he could just
magically pick things up and play but he
realized that sometimes he you know
wanted to play more things and he
couldn't so as I was growing up he said
you're going to learn the language of
music theory because that was a big
thing in our family you know we would
get together and have family reunions
and everyone would play their
instruments so for me I had to go down
that road and as I got older I struggled
especially with music theory because
unfortunately you know I guess in my
upbringing with my teachers there there
wasn't a lot of support maybe they
didn't know how to teach it because it's
interesting isn't it that you can have a
teacher that still doesn't know how to
teach so I began my research and did a
lot of studying and you know to get me
where I am today and I continue to learn
wonderful and so what was your
instrument back then at those family
reunions
well I I wanted to play the bongo drums
but my my instrument was actually piano
and still is to this day and you know
I've kind of been inspired by you I
listened to a previous podcast and heard
you play you know several instruments
and I thought you know what it's never
too late to learn and you know I I
shared with you earlier that my mom who
played the violin at the age of 68
started to play the accordion she just
picked it up and said I want to learn my
father played you know accordion and
guitar and bass piano in Oregon and
harmonica and mandolin and banjo I mean
you name it he played it he just had a
passion for connecting they the
musicality of playing one instrument and
exactly the same piece of music and then
just playing it on another instrument
and you know of course the topper
changes like now we hear this and it but
it's the same song so he loved that that
connection and I thought well if my mom
can learn it you know 68 I'm not there
yet by the way
Ben there's still time for me to you
know to pick up another instrument I
mean I play a little on the guitar just
because my dad who's passed away now but
he had a beautiful hummingbird guitar
and I have it so I thought maybe I'll
just take that out of the closet I could
play the one four or five chords and
that's about it
that goes a long way exactly yes
fantastic well yeah I mean I feel like
we could dwell on this point and talk at
length about the joys and benefits of
playing a bunch of different instruments
I think you more than most would
appreciate how much of a head start you
have on any instrument just through your
deep understanding of music theory
absolutely something you know whether or
not you know all the formal names for
things if you have that mental model of
how music works I think people are often
surprised how easy it is to pick up
another instrument oh absolutely you
know when we used to have our little
family get-togethers and my father just
would kind of throw me to the wolves and
you know there there was you know the
court charts thrown in front of my face
and you know one four or five and then
you know so you kind of be playing the
not really knowing what you're playing
heaven forbid there should be a slash
with another level a letter after it
right because now what do you do but
then I you know discovered well wait a
second if I'm playing you know one fork
five would just say C major and then my
dad would say well play you know put a
two in there and I'd go well what's it
to and and soprano well why is it minor
why is it minor and then you play in a
minor key and you have one four app a
minor and now why is the five major like
I don't understand that so then you know
I started to learn more about music oh
there's a raise seventh note harmonic
minor scale oh I get it so connecting
those then you when you're when you're
playing and you want even if you're
playing just you know at random for fun
it lets you color with more crayons you
know if we only have red blue and green
well okay that's fun but what if you
have purple you know what if you expand
you know the the colors of music and
it's just fun to hear different sounds
right so and how you can can move from
you know putting a two or six in there
and oh now the music open so from me
music theory it was absolutely essential
I mean basically I think all musicians
even if they say oh I don't really know
music theory I say well actually you do
because if you don't know how long
you're strumming or or you know are you
what time signature you in or what key
are you playing and you actually do know
music theory but what you maybe haven't
done is just explored more colors in the
crayon box to expand your musicality so
you can improvise and and you hear
things you know when my daughter was
little I remember this was you know back
in the day before cellphones and she
would literally did have an answering
machine and she would be out somewhere
and and have an idea for writing a song
and she would just sing it on the
answering machine and at the end she'd
say don't don't delete that too you know
that's that's a song that I'm hearing in
my head and then she would come home and
kind of put it together and it was
really then that she started to become
that little you know musician of
listening to different
and so I went you know what you you need
to learn music theory because that's
that's why she's the music producer
today is that she had that that skill
set well there was a lot packed in there
I would like to return to and talk about
it more depth and I feel like we've
quickly jumped to what I was looking
forward to most in this interview which
was your perspective on the usefulness
of music theory because you know as the
creator of one of if not the most widely
used kind of music theory syllabus among
music teachers I think it would be easy
for the listeners to assume that you had
a very kind of dry and clear-cut and
classical mindset on what music theory
is and how it should be learned and
certainly your material covers all the
devices in terms of traditional theory
but I think it's probably clear to
anyone listening that you are anything
but dry in how you think about theory
and how you and share the passion for
what it can do for people yes and you
know it's it's funny that you said that
I remember doing a workshop I do a lot
of traveling and and present a lot of
live events and I went into one live
event and there was one of the staff
members kind of on the side who was a
guitarist musician and he and he said oh
gosh this is gonna be like this two-hour
workshop on music theory like this is
gonna be so boring and I kind of laughed
because I thought oh you wait honey it's
nothing like boring it's gonna be a
blast and of course you know I I'm
passionate about it because it's it's
what helps bring the music alive it's
what it's so creative and I just find it
so interesting and when you actually
understand the language and certainly
you do and you know for our listeners if
you just are open to learning and
obviously you are because you want to
learn the instrument then just take
another step into the world of music
theory and I think it's gonna be a big
surprise it's like getting a present I'm
like wow and you know I'm all about the
musician and musicianship and ear
training and sight reading and and
playing you know whether you're playing
classical music or you know my husband
is
an entertainer he he sings jazz pop
country rock but well he used to sing
rock and roll but not so much anymore
but it doesn't matter it's not about
what type of music do you play it's not
even the oh that's the instrument I play
it's about the music and the only way
that you can connect that is you know if
you think about improvising or you want
to write your own song
if you don't understand music theory how
are you gonna take them deeper into your
story and be more passionate because
you're so limited so I'm just expanding
the mind and saying listen just you know
just learn and see what you can do with
those you know new crayons in your box
and and it just it just brings it to
life and I think that's the written
language of music is what the ear can
hear and the heart can seal it's a nice
way of putting it so I think that gives
us a vivid idea of how you think about
music theory these days and to a large
extent I guess how you approach it with
ultimate music theory and we kind of got
a glimpse of what it was like for you
learning theory and that family contacts
fill in the gaps for us a little bit was
it purely kind of self-taught
exploratory learning from your family
did you get exposed to the kind of more
traditional classical mold of taking
tests and passing exams and writing the
treble cleff very carefully sometimes
what did that process look like for you
that is so funny because yes so my
professional training began when I was
six years old I was playing music long
before that of course because it was
part of life but my training began when
I was six years old and I started
teaching when I was 16 and at that point
you know I thought I knew everything
hahaha and and so I began basically
because honestly I I was making really
good money as a piano teacher and I just
wanted to buy a car which I did but then
I fell in love with the process of
teaching and the more I taught the more
I realized what I didn't know and I then
went back and attained my a RCT from the
Royal Conservatory of Music and then I
realized that there was even more to
teaching that just attaining you know
and a RCT and music and I began my
training in NLP neuro-linguistic
programming and studied that became an
NLP practitioner and then I realized oh
there is still more to learn so I
continued to learn and I actually
studied how to write books for effective
learning which was really interesting
because you can actually read a book and
study a book that's detrimental to your
learning because it's so confusing and
it's not laid out well and there's no
rhyme or reason to how they're teaching
so my passion really began to to share
my love of music theory and I did that
by writing and creating the ultimate
music theory program and I wrote it in a
very methodical way that that you know
this is how step by step and always
thinking about the visual auditory and
kinesthetic learner how can we help you
know children adults you know teachers
and give them the information in a
really easy to consume way and I think
that's one of the things that I love
when I get feedback from you know people
from all over the world using our
products and they say you know it's easy
to learn and it's and it's and it's fun
to teach if you're teaching it and and
it's engaging and basically you can open
up the book and if you can read you can
learn it it's that's how it's been
written so it really was my journey I
continue to learn even with everything
that I've done there's not that there's
not an end always learning something new
cool and I want to talk in a minute more
specifically about ultimate music theory
and particularly about your complete
music theory course but before we do
let's talk a little more generally about
what you were learning over those years
because you mentioned some really
interesting things there about you know
how to write a book for effective
learning and incorporating NLP schools
and addressing different types of
learner so maybe you could just talk a
little bit more for the person who's
listening and thinking okay maybe
there's a better way for me to learn
music theory do you have any pointers
for what that process could or should
look like yes absolutely
I you know and sometimes what's
interesting is people don't really know
their learning style because just
because you want to learn by ear does
not mean that you're an auditory learner
and in interestingly enough when I when
I you know began my NLP journey I
thought which is narrow linguistic
programming so Nero is how we think
linguistic is how we communicate and
programming is the results that we get
so how we think how we communicate and
the results that we get and I am a
visual learner so I am one of those that
kind of gets terrified when you take my
book away and so that for me was
something that I had to learn how can we
now learn and I think when people say
well I don't want to read or I just play
by ear well that's great but let's not
close it off to just plain by ear
let's explore and and see maybe new ways
of learning but it's interesting because
for some students it's important that we
hear music first and then try to play it
and then look at the written music and
for others I want to see the music first
let me play it then take my book away
and I can play it from memory so there's
different approaches and one of the
things that we incorporated into the
ultra music theory program was mnemonic
devices so a mnemonic device is a memory
jogger so there's visual mnemonics
there's music mnemonics there's simple
mnemonics all of these things and so
when you think of butter pop pop bomb we
think of McDonald's I'm not a singer by
the way disclaimer right there but when
you see the visual image of you know the
the golden arch of the letter M for
McDonald's immediately you do that
association then you kind of hear that
little that little trigger in your head
so as you are working through the
ultimate music theory program you will
see all those mnemonic devices that help
you remember things and that makes
learning faster and ultimately when you
incorporate visual auditory and
kinesthetic learner that's when you can
excel in your learning so it's really
important to engage in all three
modalities that's a really important
point I think for people
understand so it's not that you are in
one category and should restrict
yourself to that type of learning it's
that they each have something to offer
that's right yeah absolutely
okay so maybe you could give an example
if you wouldn't mind of a music theory
topic and what it would look like for
someone to study that in those three
different modalities okay so if you take
let's take intervals for example is it
would that be a good topic okay so when
you are thinking of an interval you
would let's just take a major third so
now you're you're gonna sing it you may
be associate a little melody with it but
you know what it sounds like in your ear
so now you have heard that one so what
does it look like if you see it you know
on on a piece of music so here's the
interesting thing if you are looking at
it and you see and may see a major third
so I'll say C major so C to e would be a
major third now there is you know
they're both flying notes I'm going from
middle C to line one when you are
expanding that and you're moving that up
to an Augmented third now you're going
to make that E and E sharp
technically so they don't move they're
still C and still either still both line
notes but that accidental has enlarged
the interval so now you can see that if
you're reading it and you can also hear
it but now we want to involve Kinison
now we want to play it what does it feel
like oh okay and the interesting thing
is when you play that major third and
then you play it as an Augmented third
so E to be sharp wait a second
that also sounds like a perfect force so
now we're starting to discover that what
you hear as a perfect force could be
written as an Augmented third so it's
just a discovery process of
understanding
oh okay so there is different you know
every third can be major minor augmented
diminished but the sound also represents
maybe another interval so it's kind of
connecting the dots with how that would
be so interesting story
when my daughter's sharing
little so she's a music producer in Las
Vegas and and has done very well for
herself and now she was a little girl
and I remember her playing at the piano
one day but unbeknownst to me I wasn't
really sure who it was I have five
children and all five of them are
singers all five of them are
professional in the music industry
sherry is the youngest of the five
children and so I hear the piano one day
and I thought who was playing that
because I wasn't really sure my son
David was also taking piano lessons but
he did he couldn't play it that well so
I went into the music studio and there
was sherry and I said how can you play
that like you haven't learnt those notes
yet and her response was well mommy like
that's just I know that's middle C and
then I'm going up a third down a second
up a seventh down a fourth and she was
playing intervallic Lee and the fastest
way to actually play music is to read
the intervals not to say oh that's the
Oh what note is that oh I have to step
down to a B oh now what note is that so
it's not about reading the notes it's
about reading the music whether you do
that by reading intervals and once you
understand intervals and of course you
can start to build on chords and is that
a major chord or a minor chord or
augmented because they're all based on
intervals so I think that's one of the
most important thing is you have to
learn your intervals and and connect the
sounds absolutely yeah I had a similar
breakthrough I'll be a very late in my
own journey when I learned first about
chords and then kind of chord rules in
the scale and then the corresponding
scale degrees idea where suddenly you
know all of this very intricate key
signature stuff kind of dissolved away
and I could figure things out by ear
without having to very carefully think
through all of the all of the component
translations from motor notes and that
yeah like you say you suddenly feel like
you're understanding the music rather
than all of this kind of fluff around it
or all of this extraneous detail yeah
absolutely I mean the the theory is not
about music theory the theory is about
the the
musicianship skills and your training
like it's the connecting factor you know
so when you can understand that
component it's just to help you become a
better musician yeah there are two
things there that I wish I could travel
back in time and tell my 12-year olds so
the first is what you just said that you
know it's not about music theory for
theories sake it's about music theory
because that's what opens the gateway to
music for you absolutely and the second
is that when you were talking about
learning styles there I was just
remembering so vividly how for me at
that time learning theory meant studying
a book and looking at the staff and it
was completely devoid of listening and
it was completely devoid of anything
kinesthetic you know no one ever said to
me why don't we try this on piano or
what would that sound like yes and you
know from the way you describe it is
very clear you were missing two-thirds
of the puzzle there well absolutely and
in fact we have our ultimate music
theory app which correlates to our
ultimate music theory workbooks so the
ultimate music theory app is is
something that allows you to see the
notation and it correlates to the book
so if you're doing intervals which is in
the basic rudiments workbook that's the
yellow book and you're on lesson seven
which happens to be on intervals and you
open up the ultra music theory app and
you can hear the intervals you can see
the intervals you can just listen and
then I you know by ear identify what
notes with that would be I mean that's
kind of leading you into you know we
talked about who has perfect pitch and
who has relative pitch and things like
that
but developing the ear is essential I
mean if you can't if you can't develop
your ear how are you gonna play how you
can even know I mean I've seen you know
students about my students but I've seen
you know people put little young
children performing and there and they
and they play a wrong note and they're
completely oblivious to to the error and
it's because they haven't been been
given a chance to develop the ears so I
think it's really crucial that when
you're working on your music to just
take time another great tip is you know
of course I've been talking about my
daughter because you know one of her
things is is when you're practicing and
learn
earning record everything because
sometimes you play that little lick and
you go oh what did I just do that was so
good and you can't remember so when you
know her and I collaborate a lot and we
have really great discussions about
music theory because you know she also
plays by your great improviser and you
know so she always says hit record
because you never know and and the other
thing too is you can see your progress
right so you kind of want to do that so
anyway that's just a little tip with
kind of getting your ear working is when
you you correlate the app with the
workbook you can hear it you can see it
you can play it and it kind of brings it
all together so you mention apps there I
had down in my notes here to ask you a
question about the usefulness of music
theory in this day and age you know when
we're surrounded by apps and you can
click a few buttons and have a chord
progression automatically generated for
you I don't know if it's entirely
redundant given the way you've been
talking about music theory already but
maybe you could just speak to that and
if we imagine for example the electronic
musician who's dabbling on his computer
and hasn't learned to read traditional
notation and it's maybe just kind of
going purely by ear what what could you
tell them that might open their mind to
how music theory could be useful
absolutely well one of the things and
and and it's why I'm still passionate
about my pencil which I have in my hand
I'm obsessed with my pencil and and
writing things down because fact is that
when you engage in the act of writing
you actually retained 30 to 40 percent
more information than just through the
visual and the auditory so when you
engage in writing and your notating 30
to 40 percent more information is going
to be stored in the brain and again we
talk about visual auditory kinesthetic
learning three modalities connecting is
what's going to help you retain that
information so if you're just always
listening it's kind of like always
oh I mean if you imagine going through
school and never ever writing anything
down you know we retain information
because we write it down we can see it
we can feel it we can read it we can say
it out loud
so for me you know when I'm
teaching it's really important to do it
but as you said it's important to
connect that to the auditory so how
boring is it to sit and just write
forever and it doesn't mean anything to
you and that I think is maybe a you know
a misconception that sometimes people
have and they go oh I don't want to
learn music theory because they just
think they're just gonna sit and draw 18
treble clefs and heaven forbid you
shouldn't cross the G line you know the
correct number of times or too many if
you do the little circle in the middle
so yes it's important and and for me I'm
passionate about all of my students and
and you know what's interesting if you
actually asked my students do you like
music theory they would say I love music
theory because it's how its presented
right it's engaging or having fun with
it we're going to learn it but get out
your pencil you know engage in the act
of writing you will retain more
information and you know what if you
want to write out a chord chart I mean
you have to know what is the slash how
do I write it what does it mean put it
together and then and then go jam with
the boys that is so you have probably a
broader and deeper perspective than
almost anyone else around on what makes
for effective theory learning and we've
certainly touched on some themes already
you know involving each of those
different aspects and not studying the
visual in isolation and connecting it
with your real musical life but I wonder
if you can provide any insights or
observations about what what I would
call the kind of traditional approach to
music theory which is you know I'm just
learning it to pass the exam I'm gonna
study it from this book it's all about
writing things down and that's the kind
of box of music theory completely
separate from the rest of my musical
life and the kind of music theory we've
been talking about and what makes it a
joy as you just mentioned it is for your
students yeah absolutely well I have
obviously you know completed all of my
theory exams and music exams too you
know attain the level of you know
professionalism that I have obviously
and provided me with education and I
continue to do so I think that me
personally I think is very important to
be studying and learning and to do exams
and to follow a curriculum because when
you study for an exam it is the same as
practicing for a performance or going
out onstage or just doing your very best
when you play for your family that's
like an exam and when you set a goal you
know the greatest motivation for
achievement is goal setting and goal
setting without accountability you
results in good intentions and so when
you are going to do an exam don't do it
because you want to pass the exam do it
because you want to have a deeper level
of understanding so sometimes I think
the you know the word is is not oh you
have to do an exam the word is this is
cool you're going to reach this level of
education that means you're gonna be a
better musician a better player because
that's what it's about it's not about a
theory exam it's about wow I know a lot
of stuff I could like jam and you know
it also enables you to do you have that
certificate I mean I'm proud of my
certificate it's hanging on my wall you
know accomplishment is important but you
know I too believe that you know you're
never too old to learn so you know if
you're an 80 year old you can still be
learning it does know you can be a
hundred years old and still be learning
but also as if you know if you have
children absolutely in them in education
and give them that that that foundation
because if you don't they're gonna have
to do it when they're in their sixties
like some people go I wish I would have
learned well you know what it's not too
late
but also if you have children or
grandchildren you know please encourage
them to get started with that foundation
and if you give them that they can do
their exams and feel confident and proud
and become you know great musicians and
take the next exam so you know I think
there's a balance and I think it's
important to give young children and an
adult's an opportunity and you know you
may be you know 65 years old and say you
know what I am gonna do my exam because
I want that search
so keep on learning yeah I love the way
you describe that and I think just like
we talked about not studying theory for
theory sake we definitely don't want to
go down the avenue of passing exams for
the sake of exams but as you mentioned
there they can be a really valuable
motivator and marker like a milestone
for you I'll confess that I chose or my
teacher chose the exam board for my
grade eight singing back when I was a
teenager specifically so that I didn't
have to do the one that required grade
five music theory and so I totally
sidestepped the study theory and I you
know I picked up a fair amount along the
way anyway but I did not take the exams
and in my late twenties I went and I
took the exams i sat in the example I
took the great exams I did an online
course with Berkeley to you and it was
because I wanted both the clarity of a
course and the milestone of achievement
and the kind of motivator to say you
know I'm not just gonna wander around
YouTube each week and hope I find
something interesting I'm gonna study
for this exam and I'm gonna trust the
syllabus someone is laid out to tell me
what's worth learning well very good and
I think too you know you talk about you
know doing that studying and doing some
online and doing some what the teacher
and I think it's it's you know when you
have that goal set that accountability
and I think that's what a teacher is
ultimately is your accountability
partner and and you know will lead you
down the path to success and whether
you're learning online or whether you
have an actual teacher that you're
studying with or if you have a colleague
you know if you're if you're just
playing in a band you know my husband
who is a professional entertainer he's a
singer and he always told our children
all five musicians of our children that
you should always play with someone
who's better than you always aspire to
to to you know be like them or or learn
from them and certainly in our family
and our children you know we do the REA
saint-germain family show so there's
five professional children all onstage
plus some of our grandchildren are also
on stage
and they perform about maybe every two
or three years it's very hard because
they're all professionals to get them
all together and when they were
interviewing my son David and they said
so how does that work with like your
family show and he said well it's kind
of like 9 head chefs in the kitchen it's
just total chaos but you know everybody
wants to be the leader but I think that
that's a really important point is for
you to to keep learning you know
regardless of how you're taking that
course that sounds like an amazing show
very cool there were a couple of things
there that I'd love to talk more about
the first is that idea of syllabus and
you know part of the value of exams
being that there is a clear syllabus I'd
love to understand where your
decision-making for ultimate music
theory came from on that front you know
I'm coming from a world where music
theory meant the ABRSM syllabus for
example and when you were taking the
ABRSM exams in classical clarinet it was
very clear you know this is the theory
that corresponds to this type of music
it's all all kind of goes together but
obviously when you're out there in the
wider world and teaching online or
running workshops in person you know
you've got such a broader range of
musicians and musical styles and eras of
music so I'd love to understand you know
both how did you decide on what should
be part of your own syllabus and for
someone looking to study theory
themselves how do they know what is and
isn't important to learn very good
that's a good question
when I first started writing the
ultimate music theory program is the
very first time when I decided this was
gonna be it was actually because one of
my students came to me and and she
wanted to study music theory and she
said well miss glory I know you don't
know anything about music theory but if
you'd be willing to learn
I'd love but if you would teach me and
so with that kind of the journey began
and as I say
you know kind of studied how what this
was all going to happen but the ultimate
music theory program is based on and not
exclusive to but is based on the Royal
Conservatory of Music Theory syllabus
because it's important to have standards
and are we then expanded it we now
actually Sheila and I co author wrote
another 20 books last year to kind of
fill in the gaps of melody writing and
and music history because that's a great
part of it as well so our curriculum
goes from the very early beginner if you
were thinking you know kindergarten
grade one students all the way through
to the higher level which I would
consider grade 12 and I'm just being
generalizing right now but because we
wanted to have those steps all the ways
so the curriculum is mapped out so that
you can start as a beginner and you can
progress gradually through all of the
materials at the end of that we realize
that okay there are adult learners and
they don't want to do 12 years worth of
learning they are also capable of
learning much quicker and so that's when
we come they wrote the complete music
theory workbook so that kind of combines
everything into one it's 256 pages is
our complete rudiments workbook and that
really was a stepping stone for many
musicians because music theory is the
universal language of music and it
doesn't matter if you play the piano or
the guitar that you know or the tuba you
still have to know the same language so
this is not about piano theory this is
not about guitar theory this is about
music theory which is the language that
we all speak and you know interestingly
enough if you take you know musicians
from different countries together and
you put them all in the same room and
you gave them all you know the same lead
sheets and told them this was what we're
playing you know little blues and a they
would just play not speaking to each
other except through the music so that
is really why I wrote the ultra music
theory program was so that musicians
could have that communication and
we'll have a learning and still do exams
if they choose to but also become
musicians awesome and you said something
that that I would love to hear more
about which is that adults can learn
faster I think that will be reassuring
to some of our listeners are they a lot
in our audience our thinking you know
I'm in retirement or I'm a bit older I'm
not gonna be able to learn this stuff as
quickly as the children do could you
speak to that a little absolutely you
know one of the things and and it's why
I wrote the books the way I did is
because I - as I you know mentioned
earlier felt that I was not I I didn't
learn easily you know I was not on stage
performing like a rock star at a young
age I progressed as an average person
would progress and as an adult and I
went back to you know school again as an
adult learning more things I thought how
can I make this so that it's easy to to
comprehend and that really is in the
writing and it's not you know something
that I take lightly and I want to ensure
our listeners that if they choose to
explore the ultra music theory program I
think they will be pleasantly surprised
with how simply it's mapped out that
it's easy to understand that you get it
in fact in the ultimate music theory
workbooks and I'm going to speak about
the complete workbook at the end of each
lesson is a review test that is a
cumulative learning so what happens is
is say for example you're in lesson five
you've learned new things now did you
know that the only way that you can
learn the only way is when you take the
known and connect it with the unknown if
you don't put those two factors together
you can't learn for example if you know
you and I were I you know I don't speak
French so if someone was speaking French
to us and we would have no clue what
they were saying but if they had a bowl
of ice cream and they said alamode and
you said ice cream alamode ice cream
alamode eventually you would connect ah
alamode means ice cream I get that Alma
okay so that's the connecting factor and
when you are studying
and reviewing all the time what I'm
doing is I'm teaching you this concept
and you go kick got it great so now
we're gonna do a review test solidifies
that written it down next lesson we're
going to connect the known what you now
know with the new information the
unknown and now we got that bridge and
so that's really when the lightbulb goes
on you go ah I get that that's easy
boom thank you so I think that's really
when you know I talk about adults and I
teach adults as well and I think that
sometimes there's that fear factor like
oh I can't do it you know if you think
about today's technology kids you know
ask a kid you know how do you have you
go get on Instagram Oh give me your
phone do it for as adults we have a fear
factor you know I don't even know I mean
well I do know how to text obviously but
you know for some of us it's just like
afraid and I'm just like jump in the
pool come on let's have some fun so
don't be afraid just get out there and
do it you know it's it's it's just all
about learning and jumping in so I think
that you know we've had great success
with our program and I'm really and that
brings me great joy because I'm here to
serve and you know it's it's I didn't
write these books for me I wrote them
for you because I want to inspire you to
be the most creative and the most
passionate musician on the planet so
that's really why they're there nice
well hearing you describe it it I think
it's probably clear for the listeners
how you help people past that
intimidation and that overwhelm you know
when things are laid out step by step
and you're starting from the beginning
and building absolutely.i peace
their understanding suddenly this really
huge topic of music theory that can be
just baffling and complex and just seem
like far too much for an adult to take
in from scratch I think it's clear how
that can be made digestible and kind of
enjoyable to learn as well as rewarding
it's probably clear at this point I have
the greatest respect for the work you do
and the program you've put together and
so I'd love for you to share a little
bit with our listeners about what you
offer at ultimate music theory and if
they're a teacher or a student what they
could do to get involved and learn more
and maybe see if this
approach for them yes absolutely
ultimate music theory calm is really
about enriching lives through music
education so we're not just a book
publishing a you know company but we're
here to help you so at ultimate music
theory comm we have lots of free
resources including there's a little
free seven-minute video that is about
rhythm address and you can indicate
whether you're a teacher or a student
and then that will take you down you
know the path of what you would like we
have lots of free resources there for
you to enjoy on you empty courses calm
so um tea courses calm is our online
learning now the great thing about our
online program with the complete
rudiments course which is for students
of all ages it's not for little kids
it's for the adult learners and we also
have the ultimate music theory
certification course for teachers which
is teaching teachers how to teach music
theory that's hard to say with the
mouthful of marbles but so um tea
courses calm and I guess one of the
great successes about our program is
they actually have online support for
our teachers and for the students that
are taking our complete music theory
program so you're not alone there are
exams to complete within our course
because you know I believe in exams
because it it it lets me know that you
have understood the material the average
mark and I will say this out loud
proudly the average mark of teachers
completing the ultimate music theory
certification program course online
course is ninety percent over ninety
every one of our teachers now that tells
me a few things number one that you did
all your homework and you know one of
the things that I remember you spoke
about in a podcast was about being
committed to your learning schedule it
just like you schedule you know you're
teaching as a teacher or just as you
scheduled you know you're you're going
to work everyday what time you go to
work make it part of your schedule that
this is your study
time this is your professional
development time the second thing that
the success tells me is that I've done
my job as a teacher and that I've
communicated effectively you can't get
over 90% if I have not given you the
information that is needed and the third
thing is that because you have done the
exams you've actually achieved that and
and with that comes pride and in the
complete program it is there's also two
exams to do as a student
Sheila McKibben you ran is the UM TCC
examiner she's amazing she does all of
the marking and does provide any support
if you have any questions and you know
we cover a lot of different learning
styles I mean Sheila McKibben you're in
is dyslexic and I am NOT so when we work
together it's very interesting because
we come from two different perspectives
you know people say oh I have you know
I'm a video or you know I have trouble
learning
well we address those issues so that you
know we want to help you learn and in
fact the very first lesson in the
certification course is identifying your
own learning style because before you
can identify someone else's learning
style obviously your student you need
what your learning style is first so we
kind of take you through those steps and
so there's kind of two you know two ways
to go you can either go through the
teacher program or you can go through
the student program but we're there to
support you we're very open
you know never hesitate to contact us we
we do reply with with love and passion
and and a lot of fun
wonderful well you know have musical you
we teach concepts where they're required
to develop the inner skills but we don't
specifically teach music theory and
we're very clear about that and so I'm
always excited to have a great resource
to point people to and ultimate music
theory is certainly one that I recommend
so if anyone listening has been inspired
and I think Laurie speaks with an
infectious enthusiasm about all this I'm
sure you're feeling pumped up about
learning some theory do head to Ultima
music theory calm and or UMT courses
calm we'll have those links in the show
notes for easy access all that remains
is to say a big thank you glory it's
been such a pleasure talking to
and getting to know a bit about the
person behind this amazing music theory
course thank you so much for sharing
with us oh thank you it's been an
absolute pleasure and I look forward to
meeting you in person someday
absolutely thanks Christopher unlock
your full musicality with musical you
membership find our forum musicality
podcast comm /join well I don't know
about you but I found myself eager to go
study some music theory by the end of
that conversation I don't think anyone
listening to that could walk away still
thinking that music theory has to be
boring or complicated or overwhelming
there is a better way let's recap the
insights which glory shared glory grew
up in a very musical family and her own
five children are continuing that
tradition all being music professionals
themselves now so learning music theory
was just part and parcel of learning
music for her she talked about learning
chords through her dad having her play
from lead sheets and how she saw the
same kind of thing happened with her own
daughter sherry who figured out how to
play by ear using intervals without
needing to be taught a piece note by
note I think the biggest message from
our conversation was the sheer
usefulness of music theory to hear glory
talk about it it's much more about
understanding music and speaking the
language of music than is about
memorizing rules or deciphering symbols
her own experience of music theory was
partly the highly practical kind of
learning from her family but she went on
to study in the more traditional ways we
talked about the benefits of having a
syllabus laid out for you and knowing
that you'll be studying the topics which
matter in a sensible way that's very
different from jumping around trying to
cobble together music theory knowledge
yourself and we also talked about the
benefit of exams or some kind of testing
to make sure you've really understood
the material to help motivate you to
keep studying and to give you a clear
milestone of achievement that you can be
proud of and know that you've reached a
certain standard we also talked about
how the traditional methods of teaching
and learning theory can leave a lot to
be desired
glory mentioned how you can actually
study a book that not only doesn't help
you learn it's actually detrimental
to your learning for example by making
things over complicated so that you end
up more confused so it's essential to
have the best resources if you're going
to learn effectively in Glory's model
inspired by NLP neuro-linguistic
programming and the concept of there
being visual auditory and kinesthetic
learning styles it's clear that just
learning theory in a visual and factual
way from a book actually neglects
two-thirds of the puzzle to really bring
theory to life and to make it
interesting and relevant you must also
be thinking about the auditory side what
do these concepts sound like and the
kinesthetic side such as playing
examples on your instrument
I loved her example of an Augmented
third and a perfect fourth to illustrate
how something can seem identical through
one of those lenses but very different
through another I've long argued that
learning theory needs to be motivated by
your real musical life and your own
musical goals and then pursued in a way
that connects with your instrument
skills and ear skills in fact a musical
you we talked about that trifecta of
becoming a good musician that you need
to develop the ear the instrument and
your theory understanding and that it's
a whole lot easier if the theory
resources you're using acknowledge the
importance of connecting with the ear
and the instrument
I asked glory for pointers on making it
fun and easy to learn music theory and
on top of that visual auditory
kinesthetic point she also recommended
always recording your practice sessions
because you never know when you'll play
something interesting that you want to
explore some more and that even in the
age of apps we shouldn't discount the
value of writing things out by hand
because studies have shown that we
retain thirty to forty percent more
information when we write things by hand
two major problems which musicians
encounter when trying to study music
theory are intimidation and overwhelm
the concepts can seem lofty and beyond
reach and that can seem like there's
just way too much to try to take in as
glory noted those can be amplified for
the adult learner who is self-conscious
or doubtful about their own learning
capabilities she explained how it
can be simple and bite-sized giving the
examples of lessons in the ultimate
music theory complete course where the
lessons start from the very beginning
and always take the student from the
known to the unknown so that at each
step they're building on what's been
learned so far and it's a clear
cumulative learning experience which
doesn't leave them out of their depth
but still allows them to learn quickly I
have a great respect and admiration for
the work that Gloria is doing so if
you've ever wanted to brush up on your
music theory knowledge whether as a
teacher or just as a learning musician
yourself I would very much encourage you
to check out ultimate music theory calm
and UMT courses calm and we'll have
links to those in the show notes for
this episode thanks for listening to
this episode and I'll see you on the
next one thank you for listening to the
musicality podcast episode or your
musical journey continues head over to
musicality podcast calm where you will
find the links and resources mentioned
in this episode as well as bonus content
exclusive for podcast listeners
