
English: 
IN THE PHILADELPHIA
MUSEUM OF ART
IS A COLLECTION OF
PAINTINGS AND OBJECTS
BY A MAN WHO'S
UNIQUE VIEW OF LIFE
HAS GREATLY
INFLUENCED MODERN ART.
SO HERE YOU ARE, MARCEL,
LOOKING AT YOUR BIG GLASS.
YES, AND THE MORE I LOOK
AT IT THE MORE I LIKE IT.
I LIKE THE BREAKS,
THE WAY THEY COME.
THE CRACKS - YOU REMEMBER
HOW IT HAPPENED IN 1926?
I REMEMBER
HEARING.
IN BROOKLYN THEY PUT THE TWO
PANES ON TOP OF ONE ANOTHER
ON A TRUCK, FLAT, NOT KNOWING
WHAT THEY WERE CARRYING,
AND BOUNCING FOR 60
MILES IN CONNECTICUT.
SO THAT'S
WHAT HAPPENED.
BUT THE MORE I LOOK AT IT
THE MORE I LIKE THE CRACKS
BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT
LIKE SHATTERED GLASS.
THEY HAVE A SHAPE.
THERE'S A SYMMETRY
IN THE CRACKING.
THE TWO CRACKINGS ARE
SYMMETRICALLY DISPOSED

Spanish: 
En el museo de Arte de Filadelfia
se encuentra una colección de pinturas y objetos
creados por un hombre,
cuya singular visión de la vida,
ha influido considerablemente en el arte moderno.
¡Así que aquí está usted maestro, mirando su gran cristal! ¡Sí, mientras más lo miro, más me gusta!
Me gustan las rupturas... la forma en que aparecieron...
recuerda cómo ocurrió en 1926?
Sí
recuerdo haberlo oído.
En Brooklyn, pusieron las dos pinturas una encima de la otra
de forma plana, en un camión,
sin saber lo que estaban transportando,
chocando una con otra en un viaje de 60 millas, en Connecticut. Y eso fue lo que pasó.
Pero mientras más las miro, más me gustan las rupturas, porque el cristal no está hecho trizas,
sino que tiene una forma. Hay una simetría en la ruptura.
Las dos partes rotas están colocadas de forma simétrica.
Hay casi,

English: 
AND THERE'S ALMOST
AN INTENTION THERE,
AN EXTRA CURIOUS INTENTION
THAT I'M NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR
- READY MADE INTENTION,
IN OTHER WORDS,
THAT I RESPECT
AND LOVE.
BUT IT WAS ONE OF YOUR
BIGGEST UNDERTAKINGS
- MOST AMBITIOUS.
BY FAR IT IS, AND I
WORKED EIGHT YEARS ON IT
AND IT IS
NOT FINISHED.
AND I DON'T KNOW WHETHER
IT WILL EVER BE FINISHED.
BUT NOW I'LL SHOW YOU
SOME FINISHED THINGS.
COME ALONG.

Spanish: 
casi como una intención ahí,
una extra curiosa intención
de la cual no soy responsable.
una intención que ya existía antes por otro lado,
que yo respeto y amo. Pero este es y fue uno de sus mayores tareas y la más ambiciosa!
Pero cinco es, y lo cierto es que yo trabajé 8 años en ella
y aún no está terminada,
y no sé si algún día se terminará.
Pero ahora, déjeme mostrarle algunas cosas terminadas. ¡Venga conmigo!
(Música)

English: 
THERE'S THE
CHOCOLATE GRINDER.
YES, ONE OF
THE TWO I MADE
AND THE THIRD ONE IS
ON THE GLASS ITSELF.
YOU HAD SEVERAL
VERSIONS OF THE
NUDE DESCENDING A
STAIRCASE TOO, DIDN'T YOU?
YES, I HAD THREE, BUT
THIS ONE IS THE REAL,
THE FIRST ONE THAT WAS
SHOWN AT THE ARMORY SHOW.
THE ONE THE
NEWSPAPER MAN CALLED
"AN EXPLOSION IN
A SHINGLE FACTORY".
YES, THAT WAS
REALLY A GREAT LINE.
C'EST DE
SCANDAL, YES.
AND THIS IS
BOXING MATCH,
A DRAWING THAT I
NEVER USED, IN FACT.
FOR THE GLASS,
I NEVER USED IT.
I FELT IT WAS NOT
QUITE WHAT I WANTED.
IT MUST BE A GREAT
SATISFACTION TO YOU
TO HAVE SO
MANY VERSIONS
AND SO MUCH OF YOUR
WORK IN ONE COLLECTION
SUCH AS YOU FIND HERE IN
THE PHILADELPHIA MUSEUM.

Spanish: 
Aquí tenemos un molinillo de chocolate.
Sí, es uno de los dos que hice.
Y un tercero está él mismo bajo un cristal.
Y también tiene varias versiones de "Desnudo descendiendo la escalera", no?
Sí, tres y tres, pero esta es la original
y la primera que fue mostrada en la exhibición..
...en la que uno de los periodistas llamó: "una explosión en una fábrica de tejas"?
Ja, sí, sí...
pero eso fue realmente
una gran gran línea.
¡Lo dice tranquilamente!
¡Un escándalo exitoso, sí!
Y este es un combate de boxeo.
Una pintura que de hecho,
nunca la he usado... para el cristal.
Nunca la usé. Sentí que no era lo que yo quería.
Debe ser de gran satisfacción para usted
tener tantas versiones y tanto de su trabajo
en una colección
como la que se encuentra aquí
en el museo de Filadelfia.

Spanish: 
¡Oh, maravilloso, lo es!
Es que siempre he sentido que mostrar una pintura en un lugar
o en otro lugar
es como amputar un dedo del pié cada vez, o una pierna, hombre!
Aquí, me siento como en mi hogar, tengo mi casa...
nunca he tenido este alivio o sentimiento de satisfacción completa.
Puedo entender como un artista se siente al respecto.
Pero estas no parecen ser sus primeras obras.
No, no, no.
La primera obra es esa de la esquina: la iglesia
y fue hecha en mi pueblo
en 1902. ¿Qué edad tenía?
Yo tenía 15 años.
Y entonces
después continué haciendo algunos otros
pero no están aquí.
Es un poco impresionista. Sí.
Hubo una moda...

English: 
OH, WONDERFUL.
I ALWAYS FELT THAT SHOWING
ONE PAINTING IN ONE PLACE
AND ANOTHER PLACE IS
JUST LIKE AMPUTATING
ONE FINGER EACH
TIME OR A LEG.
HERE I FEEL AT HOME, MY
HOUSE, AND I'VE NEVER HAD
REALLY SUCH A FEELING
OF COMPLETE SATISFACTION.
I CAN UNDERSTAND HOW AN
ARTIST WOULD FEEL ABOUT THAT.
MARCEL, THESE DON'T
SEEM YOUR EARLIEST WORK.
NO, THE EARLIEST IS
THIS ONE IN THE CORNER.
THE CHURCH.
THAT WAS DONE IN
MY VILLAGE IN 1902.
HOW OLD
WERE YOU?
I WAS 15 THEN.
AND THEN I WENT ON AND DID
SOME MORE THAT ARE NOT HERE.
IT'S RATHER
IMPRESSIONIST,
ISN'T IT? THAT
WAS THE VOGUE?

Spanish: 
Sí, bueno, no solo era una moda, era de lo único que se hablaba, por decirlo así, quiero decir que...
Era algo avanzado! Sí, avanzado!
Y aún así
puede ver en estas dos pinturas posteriores
que lo de impresionista
ya se ha ido eliminando en el camino.
Son más estructuradas, no?
Son más estructuradas, y en ellas Cezanne ha sido reconocido.
Cezanne es un gran hombre
y yo estaba influenciado por Cezanne.
Y esas dos pinturas...
estos son mis dos pares de hermanos en el jardín
y ese es mi padre
¿De toda tu familia son pintores solo sus hermanas y hermanos?
No, solo una hermana pinta, sí. Pero especialmente mi hermano
tiene muchas pinturas
Y fueron hoy ellos los que te llevaron a pintar a Cezanne?
No, no, eso lo hice yo mismo.
Así solo del aire.
Sí, del aire especialmente.
Y mi padre era muy bueno al respecto,
de hecho,

English: 
YES, WELL, IT WAS
NOT THE VOGUE,
IT WAS THE ONLY THING
WE TALKED ABOUT,
YOU SEE, IT WAS ADVANCED
AND YET EVEN WHEN YOU SEE
THESE TWO
WHICH ARE LATER,
ALREADY IMPRESSIONISM
IS GONE DOWN IN VOGUE.
THEY'RE MORE
STRUCTURAL
AND CEZANNE HAS
BEEN RECOGNIZED THEN
AND CEZANNE IS THE
GREAT MAN AND I WAS
INFLUENCED BY CEZANNE IN
THOSE TWO PAINTINGS, SEE?
THIS IS MY TWO BROTHERS
PLAYING CHESS IN THE GARDEN
AND THIS IS
MY FATHER.
THE WHOLE FAMILY
WERE PAINTERS?
YOUR SISTER
AND BROTHERS?
ONE SISTER PAINTS,
YES, BUT ESPECIALLY
MY BROTHER,
VILLON, PAINTS.
DID THEY BRING YOU INTO
THIS CEZANNE IMPRESSIONIST?
NO, IT WAS
ON MY OWN.
JUST IN THE AIR?
IN THE AIR, YES.
AND MY FATHER WAS
VERY NICE ABOUT IT.

Spanish: 
era mas difícil de lo que es ahora, convertirte en artista por tus propios medios.
¿Y cómo aspirar a poder vivir así?
¡Así pues, él era un buen hombre!
¡Parece ser paciente.... sentado así en ese cuadro. Sí, jaj.
Parece haber un gran paso
entre este y el "Desnudo descendiendo la escalera".
Sí, el "Desnudo" fue de 2 años después.
En 1912.
1912
y fue después de este
que yo decidí
no tener más influencias obvias, como las había tenido antes.
Quería estar por lo menos viviendo mi vida cotidiana
y mi vida era el cubismo.
Vea, en los años 1910,1911,1912
el cubismo apenas estaba en su primer estado de infancia
y su enfoque era tan diferente de
los movimientos artísticos anteriores
que es por eso, que yo me sentí muy atraído hacia él.

English: 
IN FACT IT WAS VERY
DIFFICULT THEN AS IT IS NOW
TO BECOME A PAINTER
ON YOUR OWN.
HOW CAN YOU EXPECT
TO LIVE, ETC., ETC.?
SO HE WAS
A GOOD MAN.
HE LOOKS
PATIENT.
THERE SEEMS TO BE
QUITE A STEP BETWEEN THIS
AND THE NUDE
DESCENDING A STAIRCASE.
YES, THE NUDE WAS
TWO YEARS LATER.
1912.
1912, AND IT WAS AFTER
THESE THAT I DECIDED THAT
NO MORE OBVIOUS
INFLUENCES AS I HAD BEFORE.
I WANTED TO AT LEAST
BE LIVING IN MY DAY
AND MY DAY
WAS CUBISM.
1910, '11, '12 - CUBISM
WAS IN ITS CHILDHOOD
AND THE APPROACH WAS SO
DIFFERENT FROM THE PREVIOUS
MOVEMENTS THAT I WAS VERY
MUCH ATTRACTED TOWARD IT.

English: 
AND I BEGAN BEING
A CUBIST PAINTER
AND FINALLY I
CAME TO THE NUDE.
THE NUDE, HOWEVER, IS
SOMETHING OF MOVEMENT
THAT THE CUBISTS DIDN'T
SEEM TO BE INTERESTED IN.
YOU SEE, THERE WAS
ALSO FUTURISM AT THAT TIME.
THE ITALIANS.
ITALIAN FUTURISM. BUT I
DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT IT.
YOU WEREN'T
IN MUNICH.
I NEVER
KNEW ANY.
THE FAMOUS FUTURIST SHOW
IN PARIS WAS IN JANUARY 1912
WHEN I WAS PAINTING THIS.
SO I HADN'T SEEN IT.
THERE'S A
COINCIDENCE THERE
- OF COURSE YOU MIGHT
SAY IT WAS IN THE AIR -
BUT I DIDN'T ACTUALLY
KNOW THE FUTURISTS
BUT I DID THIS PAINTING
WITH THE IDEA OF USING
MOVEMENT AS ONE OF
THE ELEMENTS IN IT.
AND NEXT YEAR,
THE FOLLOWING YEAR,
I SENT IT AT THE
INVITATION OF

Spanish: 
Y es así que me convertí en un pintor cubista.
Después se me ocurrió lo del Desnudo.
El Desnudo, sin embargo, tiene algo de movimiento,
en lo cual no parecían estar interesados los cubistas.
Vea, también estaba el futurismo en aquel entonces.
El Italiano!
El futurismo italiano,
pero yo no sabía de eso.
Usted no estuvo en Munich?
No, en Italia. Nunca conocí a ninguno.
La famosa exhibición futurista en París fue en 1912 cuando yo estaba pintando esto.
En aquel entonces, yo no lo había visto. Hay una coincidencia ahí.
Por supuesto, uno puede decir que estaba en el aire
pero yo no conocía, en realidad, a los futuristas
aunque yo sí hice esta pintura con la idea de
utilizar el movimiento como uno de los
elementos en la misma.
Y el próximo año, al año siguiente
yo envié la invitación a los pintores americanos
Davis and Walter Pach.

English: 
AMERICAN PAINTERS
DAVIS AND WALTER PACH.
IT WAS AN EVENT
IN AMERICAN...
I KNOW, BUT IT'S ONLY NOW THAT
WE KNOW IT, 40 YEARS LATER.
AT THE MOMENT IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN
AN EXPLOSION OF SUCCESSFUL.
A WEEK OR TEN DAYS AND
FINISHED AND OFFERED PIE, HM?
BUT THEN THAT WAS
NOT ENOUGH FOR ME.
I WENT ON WITH THE
IDEA THAT, ALL RIGHT,
I HAD DONE WHAT I COULD
WITH CUBISM IN MY OPINION,
AND IMMEDIATELY I
WANTED TO CHANGE.
THIS IDEA OF CHANGING,
NOT REPEATING MYSELF.
I COULD HAVE DONE
TEN NUDES PROBABLY
AT THAT TIME
IF I WANTED TO.
I DECIDED NOT TO GO THAT
- THAT WILL COME INTO
ANOTHER DISCUSSION
PROBABLY ABOUT WHY I DID THAT,
BUT I WENT IMMEDIATELY
TO ANOTHER FORMULA
WHICH IS THE FORMULA OF
THE CHOCOLATE GRINDER.
I WAS
IN ROUEN
IN ONE OF THE SHOPS
SHOWING THROUGH THE GLASS

Spanish: 
Fue un evento en América.
Lo sé, lo sé, pero es solo ahora que ellos saben que sabemos lo que sabemos,
son 40 años más tarde. En su momento
debe haber sido una explosión de su éxito.
Nosotros teníamos 10 días, y eso fue todo, caso cerrado, eh?
Sí.
Pero bueno.... eso, nuevamente,
eso no fue suficiente para mí.
Yo continué con una idea, que bien, yo había hecho lo que podía con el cubismo, en mi opinión,
e inmediatamente yo quise cambiar
Esa idea de cambiar, de no repetirme yo mismo...
yo hubiera podido haber hecho 10 desnudos si hubiera querido en aquel tiempo
pero yo decidí no volver a lo mismo
hablando de otra discusión pública sobre
por qué hice eso.
Pero inmediatamente yo estaba en otra fórmula, la cual es la fórmula,
del molinillo de chocolate.
Yo estaba en Rouer, en una de las tiendas
que exhibía a través de la vitrina

English: 
A REAL, AN ACTUAL
CHOCOLATE GRINDER,
THAT A MANUFACTURER
OF CHOCOLATE
SHOWED HIS CHOCOLATE
GRINDER IN THE WINDOW
AND IT AMUSED
ME SO MUCH
THAT I TOOK IT AS A
POINT OF DEPARTURE.
WHAT WAS DIFFERENT IN
YOUR POINT OF VIEW HERE
THAN IN ANY NORMAL STILL
LIFE OF A CHOCOLATE GRINDER?
WAS IT A MECHANICAL
INTEREST?
YES, IT WAS THE MECHANICAL
SIDE OF IT, BUT THEN IT WAS
ALSO A POINT OF DEPARTURE
OF A NEW FORM OF TECHNIQUE.
I COULDN'T GO INTO THE
HAPHAZARD DRAWING
OR THE PAINTING, THE
SPLASHING OF PAINT,
I WANTED TO GO BACK
TO A COMPLETELY
DRY DRAWING, DRY
CONCEPTION OF ART.
AND THE MECHANICAL
DRAWING FOR ME

Spanish: 
un troturador de chocolate de verdad
la fábrica de chocolate exhibía este molinillo de chocolate
en la vitrina.
Y eso me divertía tanto
que lo tomé como
punto de partida
¿Cuál fue la diferencia entre tú punto de vista aquí
y el de un molinillo de chocolate inerte normal?
¿Fue lo mecánico?
Sí, por supuesto, fue la parte mecánica de este.
ehm.... influyó, al menos,
pero también la parte del punto de partida de
una nueva forma de técnica.
Yo no podía meterme en lo de
lo de pintar, cómo pintarlo, las fuerzas,
las salpicaduras de las pinturas.
Yo quería volver al dibujo
completamente seco,
a una concepción seca
del arte.
Y el dibujo técnico era para mi
la mejor forma

English: 
WAS THE BEST FORM OF
THAT DRY FORM OF ART.
ACCURACY, PRECISION, NO MORE
NOTHING OF THAT HANDIWORK
CHANCE?
- WELL, CHANCE IS
ANOTHER QUESTION,
BUT IN THAT
ACTUAL DRAWING
THE PRECISION THAT
COULD NOT BE EVEN LIKED
BY ALL THE PEOPLE WHO LIKED
IMPRESSIONISM AND ALL THIS,
IT WAS A NEW
DECISION ON MY PART
TO GET AWAY
FROM EVEN CUBISM.
AFTER A YEAR
OF THAT...
AND THIS WAS THE REAL
BEGINNING FOR THE LARGE GLASS.
AT THE TIME YOU DID THIS
WAS THERE NO NOTION
OF WHAT
WAS COMING?
NO, BUT I WAS ALREADY BEGINNING
TO MAKE A DEFINITE PLAN,
COMPLETE PLAN FOR
THE WHOLE GLASS
AND THE CHOCOLATE
GRINDER WAS ONE POINT
AND THEN CAME THE SLIDING
MACHINE ON THE SIDE.

Spanish: 
de ese tipo de arte seco.
Exactitud...exactitud, precisión
y no más nada relacionado con el trabajo manual
casualidad
casualidad... bueno, la casualidad es otra pregunta. Pero quiero decir...
que exactamente en ese dibujo, la precisión, que incluso no
no podía ser gustado
por gente a la cual le gustaban los impresionistas...
fue como una nueva
decisión de mi parte, de distanciarme
incluso del cubismo, finalmente.
después de un año, más o menos.
Y entonces, esto fue el verdadero nuevo comienzo
de los últimos años.
Cuando usted hizo eso, fue el no tener noción de lo que vendría?
No, no, pero ya yo había empezado
a hacer un plan definido
un plan completo para todo el cristal
y el molinillo estaba en un punto
y luego, estaba la máquina de deslizamiento en el otro lado.
Todo esto se suponía
y fue pintado en 30x40

Spanish: 
en papel...
porque estaba basado
en una perspectiva
lo que quiere decir, control de la posición de las cosas
No podía ser a penas
 
tenía que ser como lo había planeado
Pero imagino que usted sienta
que el molinillo de chocolate era algo precursor en su trabajo
algo relacionado con la ruptura que usted me dijo.
Sí, sí lo fue realmente.
Fue un momento importante en mi vida.
Tuve que tomar decisiones mayores.
Y yo tomé una grandiosa
al decirme: no más pinturas,
buscas un trabajo
y busqué un trabajo para
tener suficientemente tiempo de pintar para mi mismo
y cogí un trabajo como bibliotecario en París
en la biblioteca San Jean Piérre.
Y este era un trabajo maravilloso

English: 
ALL THIS WAS SUPPOSED, AND WAS
DRAWN IN '13 AND '14 ON PAPER
AND PLANNED OUT BECAUSE IT WAS
BASED ON A PERSPECTIVE VIEW,
MEANING COMPLETE CONTROL
OF THE PLACEMENT OF THINGS.
IT COULDN'T BE HAPHAZARD
OR CHANGED AFTERWARDS.
IT HAD TO GO THROUGH
ACCORDING TO PLAN, SO TO SPEAK.
WELL, I IMAGINE YOU FEEL
THAT THE CHOCOLATE GRINDER
HERALDED SOMETHING
IN YOUR WORK,
SOMETHING OF THAT BREAK
YOU'VE OFTEN TOLD ME ABOUT.
YES, IT WAS, REALLY A VERY
IMPORTANT MOMENT IN MY LIFE.
I HAD TO MAKE GREAT DECISIONS
THEN AND I MADE A GREAT ONE
BY SAYING TO MYSELF "NO
MORE PAINTING, YOU GET A JOB".
AND I LOOKED FOR A JOB IN
ORDER TO GET ENOUGH TIME
TO PAINT
FOR MYSELF.
AND I GOT A JOB AS A LIBRARIAN
IN PARIS IN THE BIBLIOTHEQUE
CENTER IN VIEUX AND THIS
WAS A WONDERFUL JOB

English: 
BECAUSE YOU HAD SO MANY
HOURS FREE IN THE DAY.
YOU MEAN, PAINTING
FOR YOURSELF,
NOT MERELY TO
PLEASE OTHER PEOPLE?
EXACTLY.
AND THAT OF COURSE LED ME
TO THIS CONCLUSION THAT
YOU EITHER ARE A
PROFESSIONAL PAINTER OR NOT.
THERE ARE TWO
KINDS OF ARTISTS.
THERE ARE THE ARTISTS
THAT DEALS WITH SOCIETY,
IS INTEGRATED
IN SOCIETY,
AND THE OTHER ARTIST, THE
COMPLETELY FREELANCE ARTIST
WHO HAS NOTHING
TO DO WITH YOU.
YOU MEAN THE MAN IN
SOCIETY HAS TO MAKE
CERTAIN COMPROMISES TO
PLEASE THEM AND TO LIVE,
IS THAT WHY YOU
TOOK THE JOB?
EXACTLY.
I DIDN'T WANT TO DEPEND
ON MY PAINTING FOR A LIVING.
DIDN'T YOU HAVE A CERTAIN
INCOME FROM YOUR FATHER?
ENOUGH TO LIVE, YES, MY FATHER
WAS VERY NICE ABOUT THAT.
HE ALWAYS
HELPED US ALONG.
ALL THREE
OF YOU?
ALL THREE, YES. LONG
AFTER WE WERE OF AGE,

Spanish: 
porque tenía muchas horas libres al día.
Quiere decir: pintando para si mismo, no meramente para complacer a otra gente?
Exactamente y eso por supuesto me llevó a esta otra conclusión:
que tú eres o un artista profesional o no lo eres.
Hay dos tipos de artistas
estos artistas que
estos con la sociedad.
que están integrados en la sociedad.
Y los otros artistas que son completamente independientes
que no tienen nada que ver con esta, no ataduras...
Usted quiere decir que el hombre y la sociedad tiene que hacer ciertos compromisos
para satisfacerse y para vivir. Es eso lo que usted quería, por lo que usted cogió el trabajo?
Exactamente, exactamente...
Yo no quería
depender de mi pintura para vivir.
Pero no tenía suficiente entrada de dinero por parte de su padre?
Suficiente para vivir, si lo quiere decir....sí!
Mi padre era muy generoso respecto a esto ,
nos ayudó a los tres por mucho tiempo. A todos los tres?
Sí, y hasta mucho después, al haber madurado!

Spanish: 
El tenía una idea muy graciosa.
Él decía: ok. les doy lo que quieran pero
no olvide que somos tres hermanas y tres hermanos.
Cualquier cosa que obtengan ahora mientras vivo
no lo tendrán después de que muera
como herencia.
Entonces, todo lo que
nos había dado y añadido cuidadosamente
sería quitado, substraído de lo que obtuviéramos después de su muerte.
Es de hecho muy divertido, una idea francesa... hmmm!
Bueno, por lo menos eso le ayudaba a pasar el mes...
Oh, seguro!
Bueno, a ver más, cuando usted habla
de su indiferencia por un público amplio
y dice que usted pinta para si mismo.
¿No aceptaría eso
como pintar para un público ideal?
para un público que lo habría apreciado
si solo se hubiera esforzado?
Sí, en efecto. Es solo una forma de ponerme en la posición apropiada para ese público ideal

English: 
AND I MEAN HE HAD
A VERY FUNNY IDEA.
HE SAID, ALL RIGHT, I'LL
GIVE YOU WHAT YOU WANT
BUT DON'T FORGET WE ARE THREE
SISTERS AND THREE BROTHERS
SO WHATEVER YOU GET
DURING MY LIFETIME
YOU'LL NEVER GET AFTER MY
DEATH AS AN INHERITANCE.
SO ALL THESE SUMS THAT
HE HAD ADDED CAREFULLY
WERE SUBTRACTED FROM
WHAT WE GOT AFTER HIS DEATH.
SEE, IT WAS VERY
AMUSING FRENCH IDEA.
WELL, AT LEAST IT HELPED
YOU OVER THE BUMPS.
OH, SURE.
WELL, MARCEL, WHEN YOU
SPEAK OF YOUR DISREGARD
FOR THE BROAD PUBLIC AND SAY
YOU'RE PAINTING FOR YOURSELF,
WOULDN'T YOU ACCEPT THAT AS
PAINTING FOR THE IDEAL PUBLIC,
FOR A PUBLIC WHICH
SHOULD APPRECIATE YOU
IF THEY WOULD ONLY
MAKE THE EFFORT TO?
YES, INDEED.
IT'S ONLY A WAY OF PUTTING
MYSELF IN THE RIGHT POSITION
FOR THAT IDEAL
PUBLIC BECAUSE

Spanish: 
porque el peligro está en complacer a
un público inmediato.
Un público inmediato
que viene a tu lado y te mete adentro
y te acepta y te da éxito y de todo.
En vez de eso, si tú esperas por tu público
que debe venir, 50 o 100 años
después de tu muerte, ese es el público correcto!
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

English: 
THE DANGER IS TO PLEASE
AN IMMEDIATE PUBLIC,
THE IMMEDIATE PUBLIC
THAT COMES AROUND YOU
AND TAKES YOU IN
AND ACCEPTS YOU
AND GIVES YOU
SUCCESS AND EVERYTHING.
INSTEAD OF THAT, IF YOU
WAIT FOR YOUR PUBLIC
THAT SHOULD COME 50 YEARS,
100 YEARS AFTER YOUR DEATH,
THAT'S THE RIGHT
PUBLIC I WANT.
IT'S A RATHER
AESTHETIC ATTITUDE.
I DON'T THINK YOU EVER FELT
THAT A PERSON WAS JUSTIFIED
IN TAKING AN IVORY TOWER
ATTITUDE AND DISREGARDING
THE INTELLIGENT AND
SYMPATHETIC PUBLIC.
NO IVORY TOWER
IN MY IDEA AT ALL.
I REMEMBER A LINE IN A PIECE
BY HENRI PIERRE ROCHE
IN WHICH HE REFERRED TO
YOU AS SAYING THAT YOU WERE
ALWAYS CAREFUL TO FIND A
WAY TO CONTRADICT YOURSELF.
I IMAGINE BY THIS YOU MEAN
YOU WERE TRYING TO AVOID
REPEATING YOURSELF.
IS THIS RIGHT?

Spanish: 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

English: 
YOU SEE, THE DANGER IS TO LEAD
YOURSELF INTO A FALSE TASTE.
EVEN IN THE
CHOCOLATE GRINDER...
TASTE, THEN, IS
SOMETHING THAT REPEATS
SOMETHING ELSE THAT
HAS BEEN ACCEPTED?
EXACTLY.
IT'S A HABIT.
REPETITION OF THE SAME THING
LONG ENOUGH TO BECOME TASTE.
IF YOU CUT IT SHORTLY, I
MEAN AFTER YOU'VE DONE IT,
THEN IT STAYS AS
A THING BY ITSELF.
BUT IF IT'S REPEATED A NUMBER
OF TIMES IT BECOMES A TASTE.
AND GOOD TASTE IS WHAT'S
APPROVED AND BAD TASTE
IS THE SAME REPETITION
BUT IT'S NOT APPROVED,
IS THAT WHAT
YOU MEAN?
YES, GOOD OR BAD IS OF
NO IMPORTANCE BECAUSE
IT'S ALWAYS GOOD FOR ONE
AND BAD FOR THE OTHER.
THE QUALITY IS NOT IMPORTANT,
BUT IT'S TASTE ANYWAY.
WELL, HOW DID YOU FIND A
WAY TO GET AWAY FROM GOOD
OR BAD TASTE IN YOUR
PERSONAL EXPRESSION?
YOU KNOW, IN THE
MECHANICAL TECHNIQUE
THERE WAS NO
TASTE POSSIBLE.

English: 
A MECHANICAL DRAWING
HAS NO TASTE IN IT.
BECAUSE IT WAS DIVORCED
FROM THE CONVENTIONAL
EXPRESSION IN
THE PAINTING.
AT LEAST I THOUGHT
SO AT THAT TIME.
AND I DO THINK
TODAY THE SAME WAY.
AND DOES THIS DIVORCE
FROM HUMAN INTERVENTION
IN DRAWING AND PAINTING
HAVE ITS RELATION
WITH THE INTEREST
YOU HAD IN READYMADES?
NATURALLY, AS A SORT OF
CONCLUSION OR CONSEQUENCE
OF DEHUMANIZATION
OF THE WORK OF ART.
IN SUCH A POINT THAT I CAME
TO THE IDEA OF READYMADES.
I CALL THEM READYMADES AS A
NAME FOR - LET ME SHOW YOU.
THIS IS A READYMADE
BIRD CAGE WITH -
IF YOU SEE ME HAVING A HARD
TIME BECAUSE THIS IS NOT SUGAR.
THIS IS MARBLE AND
IT WEIGHS A TON.
AND THAT WAS ONE
OF THE ELEMENTS

Spanish: 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Spanish: 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

English: 
THAT INTERESTED
ME WHEN I MADE IT.
YOU SEE, IT'S READYMADE AND THE
SUGAR HAS CHANGED INTO MARBLE.
IT'S A SORT OF
MYTHOLOGICAL EFFECT.
THIS IS A READYMADE
DATING BACK FROM 1916.
IT'S A BALL OF TWINE
BETWEEN TWO PLAQUES
OF COPPER - BRASS.
AND BEFORE I FINISHED IT
ARENSBERG PUT SOMETHING
INSIDE THE BALL OF TWINE
AND NEVER TOLD ME WHAT IT
WAS AND I DIDN'T WANT TO KNOW,
IT WAS A SORT OF SECRET AND IT
MAKES A NOISE SO WE CALL THIS
READYMADE WITH A SECRET
NOISE - AND LISTEN TO IT...
I WILL NEVER KNOW WHETHER
IT'S A DIAMOND OR A COIN.
YOU DIDN'T MEET
ARENSBERG UNTIL
YOU CAME TO THE
UNITED STATES, DID YOU?
NO, I CAME IN 1915 AND THAT
WAS MY FIRST MEETING WITH HIM.

Spanish: 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

English: 
WALTER PACH TOOK ME TO HIS
HOUSE - COMING OUT OF THE BOAT,
HE CAME ON THE BOAT - AND IT WAS
A LIFELONG FRIENDSHIP WITH HIM.
WAS ARENSBERG
HIMSELF A PAINTER?
NO, HE WAS A POET. HE WAS
A POET CONNECTED WITH
THE SCHOOL OF
IMAGES IN ENGLAND...
H.D. AND
RICHARD ALDINGTON?
YES, ALL THESE, AND
THEY HAD A MAGAZINE HERE
WITH KREYMBORG, ALFRED
KREYMBORG, WALLACE STEVENS,
CALLED OTHERS AND THEY
PUBLISHED THAT MAGAZINE.
DIDN'T HE PUBLISH SOME
MAGAZINES HIMSELF THAT
CONNECTED WITH YOUR
GROUP, OR YOUR FRIENDS?
YES, TWO AMUSING
MAGAZINES,
ONLY HAD ONE ISSUE
UNFORTUNATELY.
ONE WAS CALLED WRONG
WRONG AND THE OTHER ONE
WAS CALLED
THE BLIND MAN.
THEY WERE
DADAISTS.
YES, THEY WERE
INSPIRED BY DADA.
WAS IT MORE OF A LITERARY
MOVEMENT PERHAPS THAN...?

English: 
YES, IT WAS
MORE LITERARY.
IT WAS NO MORE TO DO
WITH PLASTIC ART AS SUCH,
NO MORE CONSIDERATIONS
OF TECHNIQUE
OR AS TO ALL THE
SCHOOLS BEFORE -
IN FACT IT
WAS NEGATION,
A REFUSAL TO ACCEPT
ANYTHING LIKE THAT,
TO DENY ANY PREOCCUPATION OF
THEORETICAL INTEREST, YOU SEE?
SO THE DADA MOVEMENT IMPASSE
BECAME COMPLETELY LITERARY
AND IN FACT BECAME
SURREALISM IN 1923.
WHEN THEY GOT... AS
USUAL, A GROUP OF PEOPLE
DON'T GET TOGETHER
VERY LONG.
TWO YEARS OR THREE YEARS
OF IT WAS ENOUGH AND THEY
BEGAN FIGHTING TOGETHER
AND THEY HATED EACH OTHER
SO THEY DISPERSED AND BECAME
ANOTHER GROUP FROM ITSELF
ON THE ASHES OF DADA
TO BECOME SURREALISM.

Spanish: 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Spanish: 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

English: 
BUT YOUR GROUP IN AMERICA, I
MEAN THE ARENSBERG GROUP,
WAS ASSOCIATED WITH SEVERAL
OTHER GROUPS, WASN'T IT?
THERE WAS, FOR EXAMPLE,
KATHERINE DREIER,
WHO WAS ALSO A
PATRON OF ART,
AND SHE STARTED A MUSEUM
CALLED SOCIETE ANONYME
AND THE SOCIETE
ANONYME WAS A MUSEUM
TO BRING FROM
ABROAD PAINTINGS
TO GET A SORT OF A
COMMUNION OF ART
FROM THE TWO SIDES
OF MODERN ART.
AND IT WAS
QUITE SUCCESSFUL.
THESE SEVERAL GROUPS I IMAGINE
LAID A CERTAIN FOUNDATION
FOR AN UNDERSTANDING OF
CONTEMPORARY EUROPEAN
ART IN THIS COUNTRY MUCH
BEFORE OTHER ACTIVITIES.
YES, YES, AND AMERICA WAS
ABSOLUTELY MODERN ART
CONSCIOUS WHICH NEVER
HAD HAPPENED BEFORE.
I SEE.

Spanish: 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

English: 
WELL, KATHERINE DREIER ALSO
OWNED YOUR LARGE GLASS
WHICH WE WERE LOOKING
AT A LITTLE WHILE AGO.
YES, SHE, AT THE TIME
WHEN THE ARENSBERGS -
WHO HAD THE GLASS FOR A WHILE,
OR FIRST HAD THE GLASS
WHEN IT WAS ALMOST FINISHED
BUT NEVER WAS FINISHED -
IN 1920, '21, WHEN THEY LEFT
NEW YORK FOR CALIFORNIA
THEY DIDN'T WANT TO
TAKE THE GLASS ALONG
BECAUSE IT WAS TOO FRAGILE
AND COULDN'T EXPECT TO
TRANSPORT IT VERY EASILY
AND SO SHE, KATHERINE DREIER,
BOUGHT IT FROM THEM AND SHE
HAD IT THE REST OF HER LIFE.
MARCEL, FROM WHAT YOU SAY, THE
GLASS WAS NEVER REALLY FINISHED.
NO. NO, THE LAST TIME I
WORKED ON IT WAS IN '23.
STILL IT REMAINS AN
UNFINISHED EPIC AS I SEE IT.
UNFINISHED, YES.
AND ALSO FOR ME IT SEEMS
TO INDICATE THAT YOU WERE

English: 
NEVER REALLY DEDICATED
TO CONVENTIONAL PAINTING
IN THE ORDINARY
SENSE OF THE WORD.
YOU WERE HAPPY
ENOUGH TO DO THIS,
YOU WERE HAPPY
ENOUGH TO LEAVE IT,
YOU WERE HAPPY ENOUGH
TO CHOOSE BOTTLE RACKS
AS A READYMADE AND FILL
BIRD CAGES WITH MARBLE
TO DECEIVE THOSE WHO
THOUGHT IT WAS SUGAR.
I IMAGINE THAT THERE'S
SOMETHING BROADER
IN YOUR CONCEPT OF WHAT
ART IS THAN JUST PAINTING,
IS THAT WHAT YOU
FEEL YOURSELF?
I DON'T LIKE TO PUT
WORDS IN YOUR MOUTH
BUT I HAVE OFTEN
THOUGHT ABOUT IT.
YES, IT WAS REALLY I
CONSIDERED PAINTING
AS A MEANS OF
EXPRESSION, NOT AN AIM.
ONE MEANS
OF EXPRESSION.
ONE MEANS OF EXPRESSION
INSTEAD OF AN AIM,
A COMPLETE AIM
FOR LIFE AT ALL.
THE SAME AS I CONSIDER
THAT COLOR IS ONLY
A MEANS OF
EXPRESSION,

Spanish: 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

English: 
IN PAINTING IT SHOULDN'T BE
THE LAST AIM OF PAINTING
- IN OTHER WORDS, PAINTING
SHOULD NOT ONLY BE RETINAL,
OR VISUAL, IT SHOULD HAVE
TO DO WITH THE GRAY MATTER
OF OUR UNDERSTANDING
INSTEAD OF PURELY VISUAL.
SO IT'S THE SAME THING
WITH MY LIFE IN GENERAL.
I DIDN'T WANT TO PIN MYSELF
DOWN TO ONE LITTLE CIRCLE,
AND I TRIED AT LEAST, TO
BE AS GENERAL AS I COULD
AND THAT'S, FOR EXAMPLE,
THAT'S WHAT I DID
WHEN I TOOK
UP CHESS.
CHESS IN ITSELF IS A HOBBY,
IT'S A GAME EVERYBODY CAN PLAY
BUT I TOOK IT VERY
SERIOUSLY AND ENJOYED IT.
BECAUSE I FOUND SOME COMMON
POINTS BETWEEN CHESS AND
PAINTING ACTUALLY WHEN
YOU PLAY A GAME OF CHESS
IT'S LIKE DESIGNING
SOMETHING OR CONSTRUCTING
SOME MECHANISM OF SOME
KIND BY WHICH YOU WIN OR LOSE.
THE COMPETITIVE SIDE
OF IT HAS NO IMPORTANCE,
BUT THE THING ITSELF
IS VERY, VERY PLASTIC

Spanish: 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

English: 
AND THAT'S PROBABLY WHAT
ATTRACTED ME TO THE GAME.
YOU MEAN BY THAT
AN ENJOYMENT,
A SORT OF
FULLER LIVING?
THAT IS TO SAY ANOTHER
FORM OF EXPRESSION?
YES, AT LEAST IT WAS ANOTHER
FACET OF THE SAME KIND
OF MENTAL EXPRESSION,
INTELLECTUAL EXPRESSION.
ONE SMALL FACET IF
YOU WANT BUT IT WAS
JUST ENOUGH DIFFERENT
TO MAKE IT ANOTHER FACET
AND THEN ADD TO
THE BODY OF MY LIFE.
MARCEL, YOU SPENT QUITE A
BIT OF TIME IN THE LATE 1930'S
AND THE EARLY 1940'S
ON YOUR RELIEFS,
DO YOU REGARD
THAT AS A DISTINCT
PERSONAL
EXPRESSION ALSO?
YES, ABSOLUTELY.
IT'S A NEW FORM OF
EXPRESSION FOR ME,
INSTEAD OF
PAINTING SOMETHING
IT WAS TO USE A REPRODUCTION
OF THOSE PAINTINGS

Spanish: 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

English: 
THAT I LOVED SO MUCH INTO
A SMALL REDUCED FORM,
INTO A SMALL SHAPE, AND
HOW TO DO IT I DIDN'T KNOW.
I THOUGHT A BOOK,
WHICH I DIDN'T LIKE,
SO I THOUGHT OF THE
IDEA OF A BOX IN WHICH
THEY WOULD BE MOUNTED
LIKE A SMALL MUSEUM,
PORTABLE MUSEUM AND
THERE IT IS IN THIS.
IT'S A SORT OF READYMADE
HELP AS YOU CALL IT?
YES, SEE IT
OPENS THIS WAY.
OUT IT GOES, AND THEN WE
HAVE THE REST OF IT IN THIS.
PRACTICALLY ALL
YOUR WORK IS IN HERE.
PRACTICALLY ALL OF IT, I THINK
VERY FEW THINGS ARE MISSING.
YOU SEE THIS
ROTO-RELIEF...
WHAT IS IT,
IS IT A DISC?
YES, IT'S A SERIES
OF 12 DRAWINGS,
DIFFERENT DRAWINGS,
BASED ON THE SPIRAL.

Spanish: 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

English: 
TO BE USED ON A
GRAMOPHONE OR...
YEAH, ON A VICTROLA AND THE
EFFECT IS THAT WHEN YOU TURN
THEM AT A CERTAIN SPEED LIKE
33 AND A HALF TURNS A MINUTE
YOU GET THE
EFFECT OF...
A GROWING FORM.
LIKE A CONE OR CORKSCREW
OR THE SPIRAL EFFECT.
BUT THEY ARE
DIFFERENT DRAWINGS.
THIS ONE FOR
EXAMPLE IS A GLASS.
IT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE A GLASS
HERE, BUT WHEN IT TURNS
THIS COMES UP LIKE
A THIRD DIMENSION.
WE HAVE THIS
ONE HERE...
THAT'S THE
DADA PERIOD.
THE MONA LISA WITH A
MUSTACHE AND A GOATEE.
THAT WAS A GREAT ICONOCLASTIC
GESTURE ON MY PART.
SACRILEGIOUS.
SACRILEGIOUS, BLASPHEMOUS,
ALL YOU WANT.
BUT OUTSIDE OF THIS
BLASPHEMOUS GESTURE

Spanish: 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Spanish: 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

English: 
I HAVE OTHER GESTURES
OF THE SAME KIND
IN THE DADA PERIOD,
LIKE THIS CHECK.
I PAID MY DENTIST WITH
THIS CHECK WHICH WAS AN
ORIGINAL CHECK DRAWN BY
MYSELF ON NO BANK AT ALL.
AND HE ACCEPTED IT.
HE WAS A VERY GOOD
SPORT AND HE ACCEPTED IT.
SO WHAT HAPPENED, THE
FUNNIEST PART OF IT IS THAT
TEN OR 15 YEARS
LATER I SAW HIM AGAIN
AND I BOUGHT
THE CHECK BACK
FOR MY OWN COLLECTION,
AND THERE IT IS.
THIS IS ALSO ANOTHER
ONE ON A SYSTEM,
A MONTE CARLO SYSTEM
TO WIN IN MONTE CARLO,
TO BREAK THE BANK
IN MONTE CARLO.
OF COURSE I NEVER
BROKE ANY BANK WITH IT
AND I THOUGHT
I HAD A SYSTEM
AND I MADE SOME SHARES THAT
I SOLD TO DIFFERENT PEOPLE
TO MAKE A CAPITAL OF IT AND
BREAK THE BANK IN MONTE CARLO.
DID YOU UNDERTAKE IT?
DID YOU TRY TO...
OH, I DID. I SOLD
A FEW SHARES.
BUT DID YOU
WIN ANYTHING?
NO, I NEVER
WON ANYTHING.

English: 
NOW THIS IS THE
BOXING MATCH.
AS YOU SEE THE DRAWING IS
COMPLETELY GEOMETRICAL
OR MECHANICAL BECAUSE
THAT WAS AT THE PERIOD
WHEN I'D CHANGED
COMPLETELY FROM SPLASHING
THE PAINT ON THE CANVAS TO AN
ABSOLUTELY PRECISE DRAWING
WITH NO RELATION
TO ARTY HANDIWORK.
THIS WAS ONE OF THE
MOTIVES OF THE GLASS
THAT WASN'T
INCORPORATED?
IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE IN IT
AND NEVER WAS INCORPORATED
IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN
SOMEWHERE HERE.
BUT NEVER
WAS FINISHED.
AND, AS YOU KNOW, I LIKE
THE INTELLECTUAL SIDE,
ALTHOUGH I DON'T LIKE
THE WORD "INTELLECT".
FOR ME, INTELLECT
IS TOO DRY A WORD.

Spanish: 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

English: 
TOO, UM, INEXPRESSIVE. I
LIKE THE WORD "BELIEVE".
BELIEVING IS MORE - I THINK
THAT PEOPLE IN GENERAL
WHEN THEY SAY "I KNOW",
THEY DON'T KNOW.
THEY BELIEVE.
I BELIEVE THAT ART IS THE ONLY
FORM OF ACTIVITY IN WHICH MAN
AS MAN SHOWS HIMSELF
TO BE A TRUE INDIVIDUAL.
AND IS CAPABLE OF GOING
BEYOND THE ANIMAL STATE.
BECAUSE ART IS AN
OUTLET TOWARDS REGIONS
WHICH ARE NOT RULED
BY TIME AND SPACE.

Spanish: 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
