[MUSIC PLAYING]
SPEAKER: It's my
absolute pleasure
to welcome both Corine Sombrun
and Nadine Kreisberger to Talks
at Google.
Corine is a French author,
composer, and shamanic trance
researcher.
She has spent 15 years
learning and practicing
Mongolian shamanic trance and
collaborating with researchers
in neuroscience and psychiatry.
Aside from this research, Corine
also collaborates extensively
with artists and leads workshops
exploring the influence
of trance on creativity.
She has written several books,
translated to many languages.
The one that was
translated to English
is "In Geronimo's
Footsteps," and we still
have a few copies here.
Nadine's work is about
accompanying people
on their journey to understand
who they are and becoming it.
She combines various tools,
from [INAUDIBLE] psychology
and dreamwork to business
coaching and leadership
training, from
trauma relief, EMDR,
to intergenerational work.
She works in both one-on-one and
group settings in the Bay Area
and around the world.
I had the pleasure to work
with both Corine and Nadine
personally, and I know
you are in for a treat.
Please welcome
Corine and Nadine.
[APPLAUSE]
NADINE KREISBERGER:
Thank you, [? Marios. ?]
Thank you for having us today.
We're super excited.
And thank you for coming,
everyone out there and everyone
here.
I think you are in for
a treat, because we're
going to tell you about
an amazing story, which
is the encounter of ancient
technology and the newest
technology.
These days, we keep talking
about technology, technology,
technology, and we forget a
lot of the ancient technology,
which we still carry, and
which we can still tap into.
So we're going to tell
you a story at the cutting
edge of neuroscience, and
psychiatry, and psychology,
but rooted in ancient
schools of wisdom,
in what's called shamanism.
I'll give you the
main headlines,
and then we'll go into it.
So you've all heard or
experienced trance--
heard about or experienced
trance, a different state
of consciousness where
we can access information
and transform things.
And usually, when we
think about trance,
we either think about
shamanic traditions,
where there's a drum, and
someone goes and talks
to the spirits, or we think,
since the '60s, about taking
LSD, or mushrooms, or ayahuasca,
and so on and so forth--
all those things that are
more and more available here.
Now, it turns out
that we actually
can self-induce trance
without any substance,
without anything.
And so that's some good news.
It seems that it's a capability
that every human being has.
And Corine has uncovered
a way for human beings
to learn how to self-induce
when it's safe for that person.
And then the next
question is, what for?
And that's where the
research comes in,
and you're going to hear
about all of the things
that Corine is
beginning to do, to see
cancer research,
research on obesity,
and all sorts of healing
things, self-development,
self-understanding,
psychiatric issues.
It can be a tool for
many, many things.
It's just the beginning
of that research.
So this is the story
we're here to tell you--
how it unfolded.
The reason I'm here
is that I do have
a background in
psychology, but also, I've
worked with many shamans
from around the world,
and I've always thought
that on the journey
to become ourselves, we need
many, many different tools.
And it's always
amazing to combine
psychology and this ability
to go to other dimensions.
And I met Corine
a few years ago,
and we've been working
together, and we're
developing a protocol to
integrate self-induced trance
and psychology.
And we're in the
process of doing it.
We're already
working with people.
And it's phenomenal,
the results.
So we'll share a
little bit about that.
So that's the reason I'm here.
But so let's hear
more about you.
And so my first
question is, how does it
happen that a Parisian, very
Cartesian, who has never
dealt with any of that ends up
developing self-induced trance?
CORINE SOMBRUN: It
all began in 2001.
I was living in London
at the time, and dealing
with the loss of my partner,
and dealing with grief,
and when my producer--
I was working in the BBC
World Service, the radio--
and when my producer
told me, I can send you
in Mongolia out to do a report
for the radio about Mongolian
shamanism, I told
her, oh yes, you know?
Because the farthest I could be,
the better it could be for me,
you know?
So I went in Mongolia to study
by what shamanism could be,
and I met this shaman.
A friend of mine, Nara,
accompanied me to this place.
It's in the north of Mongolia,
at the border of Siberia.
And as soon as the shaman
began to beat the drum,
it did something very weird.
I began to shake, and--
more and more, and I was feeling
like I was transforming myself
in a wolf.
I began to howl
like a wolf, and I
feel like I had paws and a
muzzle instead of my nose.
And it was quite weird, because
I realized what happened to me,
but I couldn't control anymore,
because this was very scary,
you know?
And when the dreaming
stopped, the shaman
was speaking with
my friend, Nara,
and he told her, why didn't you
tell me that she was a shaman?
Because according
to him, I react
like that because
I was a shaman.
So he told me both, so now
you don't have any choice.
We are going to keep you with
us for three years, and so--
but I told him, no,
it's not possible.
I don't want to stay
at the Siberian border
for three years with you,
and it was not possible.
And he told me, yes, yes,
yes, yes, it will be possible.
[INAUDIBLE] I don't
want to do that.
He told me, you don't
have any choice.
If you don't stay
with us and do what
the spirits are
supposed to teach you,
you are going to die.
Voila.
So this is me one year later.
We used to go with my drum,
and his husband's shaman,
[INAUDIBLE] was keeping me,
holding me during the trance.
And I spent a lot of time
in Mongolia, you know?
It last eight years, finally.
I went a few months a year
in Mongolia for eight years.
And finally, I discovered
how interesting
could be the trance state.
What it-- the main point
is that during the trance,
you are timeless, you know?
You don't feel the time.
And you feel less pain.
The strength is increasing.
Did you see the
size of the drum?
You know, the big one.
It's seven kilos,
seven to eight kilos.
So it's very, very heavy.
And I could manage to use it
for hours, drumming and beating
the drum for hours,
without any pain.
The senses are sharpest.
And the sense of
self is modified.
Of course, you feel like
you are an animal, a wolf,
but it's not only one animal.
It can be an entity.
It can be other animals.
It can be a lot of things.
And information,
this is a main point,
because during the
trance, a shaman
is using the special
state to reach
what he called the
so-called world spirit just
to get information.
He is not able to get in
another state of consciousness.
So this is really
important about the trance.
So my question was, why?
Why?
This can put me in such a
state, an interesting state.
So I decided to to go
through scientists.
And my dream was to record
my brain through EEG.
But the scientist, it's him.
He's Pierre Flor-Henry.
He's working in Alberta, in the
hospital, as a psychiatrist.
And he told me, if you want
to be recorded with an EEG,
you are going to do the trance
without the drum, you know?
Because when you are drumming,
and when the electrodes are
connected to the computer, you
are going to break everything
in the laboratory, you know?
So I don't know what
you are going to do,
and how you are
going to do this,
but if you want to do the
experience, you will have to
NADINE KREISBERGER: Self-induce.
CORINE SOMBRUN:
Self-induce, exactly.
So I didn't know
how to self-induce,
because in Mongolia,
every shaman induces
the trance with the drum.
So I was thinking about
the music of the drum,
trying to remember
the music of the drum.
It was not working.
And I remember that at the
beginning of the trance,
I was always shaking like that.
So I began to shake, and I
could go back to the trance
by this way.
So it was my self-induction.
I didn't know yet that
it was my self-induction,
and everybody had his
own self-induction.
But at the time, I realized
that this was working.
I could shake, and I
could control the trance.
So when I've been
ready, Pierre Flor-Henry
told me, OK, now you are ready,
so we can do the research.
So they decided to record
me in the normal state
and in the trance state.
And first, I'd like to show
you a little video about what
is a self-induced trance.
What you are going to see
is in another laboratory,
but it's more or less what I
did in the Alberta hospital.
All And I was moving much
less in the Alberta hospital
than here.
So you are going to see how it's
easy to self-induce a trance,
but what the trance
can teach us.
I am doing some
sounds I am completely
unable to do in a normal state.
I am doing some
chanting, and you are--
you will be amazed by what we
are able to do in this state.
You are going to
listen to a language--
nobody can understand
this language.
It's not identified
as a known language.
But we think its a
pre-language, you know?
Kind of pure
information, because when
I do this language, which
is coming out alone,
I don't think about
what I am going to say.
But when I do this
language, I understand
the sense and the
meaning of the language,
but nobody can understand.
[VIDEO PLAYBACK]
- [BREATHING]
OK.
OK.
Thank you.
[TRANCE VOCAL]
[TRANCE VOCAL]
[RAPID, PATTERNED BREATHING]
CORINE SOMBRUN: So it's done.
You know, it's very quick.
This is training.
The more you train, the more
it's easy to go into a trance.
I was supposed to feel--
there is a little bit
of water in front of me.
And the researcher
wanted to know
if I could get some information
from this water and to know--
- [BIRDLIKE TRANCE VOCAL]
CORINE SOMBRUN: Hear the bird?
- [BIRDLIKE TRANCE VOCAL]
[TRANCE VOCAL]
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]
CORINE SOMBRUN: This is the
language I was speaking about.
- [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]
NADINE KREISBERGER:
So there were
different types of
water, river and ocean
and poisoned and not poisoned.
And they wanted to see if
in the state of trance,
she could get information
of which water is which.
And of course, she was able.
[NON-ENGLISH SINGING]
[END PLAYBACK]
CORINE SOMBRUN: So
this is a sample
of what you can do in a trance.
But each trance is different.
As we can discover after, each
one develops a kind of trance,
and it's not just like
you see, like that,
but each person who is
doing self-induced trance
is able to reveal
some own capabilities,
and so it's different for each.
So after that I had to
do the EEG recording,
and here is one of
the first images.
And on the left,
it's me in a trance.
And on the right are
the control group women,
80 people, more or less.
Yes?
80 women.
And they wanted to compare the
brain activity for the control
group versus me.
And they immediately remarked
that the brain activity
was increased in the
place where the arrow is.
And this is me in a
trance, on the left,
and me in the normal state.
And there is a difference too
with brain activity different.
And it increased in
this special place.
So to sum up, this is
where it is increased
and where it is decreased.
So it depends on the bandwidth.
And here are the results.
Before trance,
the EEG is normal.
Completely normal.
During the trance, there
is a big modification
of the brain activity.
So it means that it's not magic.
Ethnologists had the idea
that it was cultural.
The trance was a cultural thing.
But there we did show that it
was a cognitive phenomenon.
Voilá.
There is a right
hemispheric predominance.
And after the trance, the
EEG was back to normal.
NADINE KREISBERGER: So
this was the first time
ever that a brain
under shamanic trance
was studied by scientists.
And just a few months ago,
they published the results
in a scientific journal.
So it's the first
time ever that--
people thought
about it, but it was
the first time it was proved.
CORINE SOMBRUN: It took
10 years for this article
to be published.
10 years.
So now you can consult it.
And this is the conclusion.
NADINE KREISBERGER: So it
can be a powerful tool.
So Corine, my question is so
you did all that research,
and you understood
you're not crazy.
There's something
happening in your brain.
Why did you decide
to then develop
a tool to share it with others?
CORINE SOMBRUN: Because
thanks to these researchers,
we show that it was a
cognitive phenomena.
So I think it was for everybody.
And if I was able to
self induce a trance,
it was possible for everybody.
So the drum is efficient
to put somebody
in a trance for 1 out
of 100,000 people.
So it's 0.0001 persons.
There is only 30
shaman in Mongolia
for a population of 3 million.
So it's very few.
So I was thinking, maybe the
drum is not efficient enough.
Is not powerful enough to
put everybody in a trance.
So I was thinking about a
tool we could do as scientists
to improve this effect.
So I had, as a musician
and a composer,
I found in the drumming some
parts very, very, very, very
powerful on my brain.
I couldn't stop to
go through a trance
when I was listening to
these special little loops
from the drum.
And I get these loops to some
scientists I am working with,
and they tried to find out how
and why these special sequences
were so powerful and try
to empower them much more.
And we created a new tool.
I had the chance to test
this new tool-- a sound loop;
we call it a sound loop--
in [INAUDIBLE] in
the art school,
in the national art school
in France, where I am doing
workshops to show them that
the moment of creativity
is kind of a trance to one.
So they agreed to test the sound
loop, and the result was this.
16 out of 20 now took a trance.
So we realized that OK,
everybody, more or less,
could go through a trance.
But the next step was
to try to teach them
how to self-induce it.
NADINE KREISBERGER:
Well, you tested it
with many, many more
groups so that you
understand of many different
cultures and different places.
We tested it also in California
with a number of groups.
And the percentage was
always very consistent.
It was about 80% of
the people, very often
people who have never
experienced trance, when
they are exposed to
the sound loop, boom.
They experience something.
CORINE SOMBRUN: And
with the artists,
we were thinking it easy with
artists that know the state.
Of course they know the state,
but with researchers, it
would be different.
So we did test with
all the researchers
we were working with, and
it was the same result.
At the first listening, they
could go through a trance.
80% of them could be able
to go through a trance.
And that's a full listening.
Everybody was able
to go full trance.
So it was a good result.
NADINE KREISBERGER:
And in general,
what happens is if
during that experience,
a person has an experience,
and their body starts shaking
or something like this, whatever
happens to them first might be
their key to self-induce,
in the same way
that Corine said
that to self-induce,
she went back to
the gestures she
was making at the beginning.
So in the same way,
that's what can happen.
So this is what we're doing now
when we're working with people,
and where when
it's safe for them,
we're teaching them
to self-induce.
This is what we're doing.
We're just observing what
happens on their face
or in their body,
and then we get them
to repeat that, and then boom.
They can go.
The thing is, when someone
goes in that state,
the person is always conscious.
So there's always that observer
seeing what's going on.
And the person can come
back whenever they want,
which is very different
from taking something.
Because when you
take something, you
are under the influence
of that thing.
Because then there is
the physical consequence
in your brain and your body
of whatever you're taking.
So this is a big difference.
Then a very interesting
and important part
of it was, for
instance, you started--
I can talk about Francis.
Because this is the beginning
of a lot of research.
Someone in Paris, one of the
top researchers in France,
one of the people managing the
CNRS, which is like the top--
there's no such thing in the US.
But it's like NIH plus MIT
plus all the top research
labs in the country.
He was diagnosed with very
bad cancer, prostate cancer
metastasized to the spine, and
he was given just a few months
to live.
And he was already paralyzed.
He was barely
walking with a stick.
Couldn't move the hips.
Nothing, really.
And because science couldn't
do anything for him,
he ended up with Corine.
And Corine said,
look, we can try.
We can try the sound loop.
CORINE SOMBRUN: And
I can try to help
you to self-induce a trance,
to show you how to self-induce.
He told me, OK.
OK.
And the next video, with the
first listening of the sound
loop.
So you're going to see him
go into a short trance.
He undertook a trance.
And you are going to see
the hips moving like hell.
You know?
And--
NADINE KREISBERGER:
Just watch the hips.
Paralyzed, and just watch
what happens to them
in the state of trance,
for someone who has never
experienced trance before.
Very rational
scientist researcher.
[VIDEO PLAYBACK]
- [TRANCE VOCAL]
[END PLAYBACK]
NADINE KREISBERGER:
So no osteopath,
no physiotherapist
was working with could
understand any of it.
And then after that,
what had happened
was that he started
self-inducing every day.
Even in the middle of the night,
his body would wake him up
and just start to trance.
And his research
is about studying--
developing an MRI to
study the metabolism.
And he realized,
basically, that his body
was waking up and
starting the trance
at the same time the
cancer cells were,
in their own
biorhythm, spreading.
So at the same time,
his body automatically
was waking up, doing the trance.
And now we are 14 months
later, he's in total remission.
He's completely healed.
And--
CORINE SOMBRUN: But it's
not only thanks to this, eh?
He did a lot of--
NADINE KREISBERGER:
Nutrition, changed his diet,
and things like that.
CORINE SOMBRUN:
But this for sure
helped him to recover
the body shape.
NADINE KREISBERGER:
The body shape.
And he's walking now.
No more stick, and
so on and so forth.
And so very intrigued by
what he did to his body, he--
and for lots of
other reasons, he's
created a foundation
to research, again,
all that stuff with
the metabolism.
But one of the parts
of that research
will be to see how can
self self-induced trance
help in cases of cancer.
So that leads us
to the next step,
to the next part of
our talk, which is
how can it be used, this tool?
So one is this.
Do you want to say a few more
words about the foundation
or Francis or--
CORINE SOMBRUN: No.
He's going to work on advanced
methods to cure people,
and this will be one of them.
And he's working on metabolism.
So he will be able to
see how the trance can
act, have an effect or not,
on the cell metabolism.
So this part of the
work, he liked to do.
And he remarked that there
is a synoptic trace left
on the synapse after the trance.
And he could manage to reconnect
consciously to this synapse's
trace after the trance.
So there is really a [INAUDIBLE]
is really a mark in the brain
which could stay and had a
way of learning some new--
what the body can do, and what
the body has to teach you,
what the body would
like you to do.
NADINE KREISBERGER: Yes.
The second field of research for
you now, that you're starting,
is psychiatry.
So you've begun to work with
a psychiatry clinic in France.
20 psychiatrists there
experienced the sound loop.
And you can imagine that
it's difficult for them
to just let go and go into
trance and make weird noises,
because it might sound and
look like their patients.
You know?
So there might be some
resistance in that group.
But actually, again,
almost all of them
experienced trance,
which is amazing.
And of course, it was
the first time for them.
And so you're developing
a program now,
a pilot program
with them, to see
how it can be used in case
of dissociative patients.
CORINE SOMBRUN: In this
case, so dissociative
disorder, depression,
panic attack and PTSD.
So this is just the beginning.
We didn't do anything yet,
but we got the authorization
to start this pilot program.
The name of the psychiatrist
is Dr. [? Limon. ?]
And he is very eager to
begin this kind of research.
NADINE KREISBERGER: Yeah.
One of the examples, just
to give you an example,
is the idea that when
a client, a patient
has a dissociative episode,
a schizophrenic person,
they just go.
And it's usually
extremely painful,
extremely traumatizing,
difficult to come back,
and so on and so forth.
With the trance, it might--
it might help them go in a
controlled way in that state
and learn to come
back much more gently.
And if they learn the
path back and forth,
but in a gentle and
safe way, maybe it
can diminish the
trauma and the pain
when they just have an episode.
Maybe it can do something about
the frequency of the episodes.
We don't know.
We're going to see.
So that's one thing.
And the PTSD, that's a
really important thing.
Because you might
have heard, there's
a lot of research using
LSD or psilocybin for PTSD
and depression and all
sorts of things like that,
but there might be side
effects to those things.
So now it will be
interesting to use
self-induced trance, with no
side effect, for those things.
And you're developing
a program with the CNRS
on the brain-machine interface.
CORINE SOMBRUN: Oui.
What is important, to be
able to self-induce a trance,
you need a key before
to go through the state
and to know what is a state.
So the key can be
the sound loop,
but a French
laboratory asked if it
could be possible to
help them to develop
a brain-machine
interface to help people
to go through the trance.
And after that, they will
be able to be safe and use
the trance.
So this is a new project we
have with a French laboratory
to set up this kind of
brain meshing computer.
This was a new adventure.
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
NADINE KREISBERGER: Yeah.
And also some virtual reality,
because of course, that
might lend itself very
well to taking people
on a journey where they
can then self-induce.
The next field,
educational field.
CORINE SOMBRUN: You
saw, during the trance,
I am able to do something
incredible I am not
able to do in my normal state.
So some other researcher
in another laboratory
thinks that it could
be interesting to test
what we could be able to learn
during the state of trance.
Because we realized
that some inhibited
systems are removed
during the trance state.
So it should be why you are
so able to do something we
don't know we are able to do.
But to use this
special [INAUDIBLE]
to test and to try to know
where and how we can learn
and what we could learn in
this special [INAUDIBLE]..
NADINE KREISBERGER: Yeah, we
all know we have so many latent
capabilities, right?
For instance, in a
circumstance of high danger,
we suddenly can run faster
than we ever thought we could.
So we have those capabilities
in us, and so, so many.
So the idea is OK, let's try
in that self-induced state
and see what we can explore.
And the last one in
psychology, and this
is where we are collaborating,
and now it's been a year,
so there is more--
I mean, we've worked
with a number of people,
so now we can see
a bit how it works.
So it's fascinating to
see what happens when you
combine verbal and nonverbal.
When you combine the more
classical tools of psychology,
even dream work, which already
goes into the unconscious
somewhere, and Corine's work and
the capability to self-induce.
So just to give you an example,
with a few people I work with--
and we go deep in that
kind of one-on-one work--
there were things we
could not understand
where it was coming from,
like some deep anxiety
or some deep phobias
in the person.
We just couldn't.
And nothing was appearing in the
dreams, because that person was
too stressed to even
remember their dreams
or whatever was happening.
And so we couldn't
trace the core,
the root cause of that problem.
And if we can't understand the
root cause, we can't change it.
And then that person who had
never experienced-- ever, ever,
ever experienced trance, was
exposed to the sound loop.
Boom!
It was phenomenal
what she experienced.
And then we spent more time
with her, and we were able--
so she was able to self-induce.
And then when she was--
before self-inducing,
we asked the question.
Because that's the thing.
When you go in a trance, you
can either just go and see
what shows up in
terms of material;
what you see, what you
feel, what your body does,
or actually you
can ask a question.
You can have an intention.
And so we did that
a number of times,
where we asked a
question about key
points we could
never understand.
And she got answers
that I don't know
how long it would have taken
in a more classical "therapy"
to get those answers.
And it comes in a way
which is so real, that it
gets etched in the cells.
It gets etched in
your understanding
in a different way.
It's not intellectual,
because you really feel it.
And so it was a
big breakthrough.
And then I come in, and
we do the integration,
the verbal integration.
Because again-- and Corine
keeps insisting on that--
to have a trance experience
just for the sake of it,
she calls it tour de manege,
which I love in French.
You know when you
do a carousel thing?
It's just entertainment.
It's just an aha
moment, and then what?
If you don't work on
the material that's
being revealed, if you don't
work on how to integrate it
in your life, what's the point?
I mean, and worst case,
actually, what gets exposed
is actually traumatizing
or painful material.
And if there's nobody to
help you integrate that,
it's actually dangerous.
So we--
AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]
often all of Indonesia
as a role model [INAUDIBLE].
NADINE KREISBERGER: [LAUGHS]
The spirits are saying yes,
you're right.
So this is what
we're developing.
We're developing a protocol
to also teach people
to self-induce, when it's
safe, and so on and so forth,
individuals.
And so as you can hear
about all those things,
this is an ancestral,
timeless capability
in every human being.
But now, with science
and technology,
we can explore it differently.
And it's like really
beginning to discover
a new continent, everything
we're describing,
and how to use that tool for
all those different things.
It's just the beginning
of the research.
CORINE SOMBRUN: So we
don't have any answer yet,
but this is the beginning,
and the researchers
are eager to go through that.
And I think that
it is promising.
But that's it for now.
And we have to say
too that it's not
possible to leave this
kind of tool for everybody.
It will be just
for people trained
with it and physicians and
psychiatrists and people who
are able to manage this
without any danger.
NADINE KREISBERGER:
So that's it.
Very exciting things.
We have a few minutes
for questions.
So yes?
AUDIENCE: Yes, I have
a quick question.
So long--
CREW: Wait for the mic, please.
CREW: There's the mic for him.
AUDIENCE: I guess I'm not
speaking loudly enough.
CREW: No, there are people
joining [INAUDIBLE]..
AUDIENCE: OK.
So the first question
is you mentioned
the brain-machine interface.
So what's the idea behind that?
How?
You would have some
sort of a machine that
affects brain waves and
stuff and then puts you
into a trance, or--
CORINE SOMBRUN: The
computer will analyze--
you have electrodes on your
head and in the brain-machine
system, and the computer
will analyze the brain waves
and help you to go
through a trance.
Voilá.
Through a special--
this is not my field.
AUDIENCE: So the
computer will just
read your brain
waves, and then you--
CORINE SOMBRUN: And help
you to go through a trance.
Because I am going to
give my head to some marks
and to indicate what is a
trance state to the computer.
And on this model,
a researcher will
be able to create
[SPEAKING FRENCH]..
NADINE KREISBERGER: So basically
by recording her and putting
that in the program, the
computer program will
know where the
brain of that person
should go to access that trance.
And so that's what
the computer will do.
Pushing--
AUDIENCE: So it's a
feedback mechanism.
NADINE KREISBERGER:
Yes, exactly.
It's neural feedback.
CORINE SOMBRUN:
Neural feedback, yeah.
AUDIENCE: Something by
yourself, and then you say, OK.
NADINE KREISBERGER: Exactly.
AUDIENCE: Are you
going there, or are you
going somewhere else?
CORINE SOMBRUN:
It's neurofeedback.
AUDIENCE: OK.
And then the second
question is what's
the difference between this
trance and self-hypnosis?
CORINE SOMBRUN: We did
some research in MRI
just to know what
part of the brain
were activated during the--
just when I decide to
go through a trance,
or when somebody
decided to go to one,
and knows this experience.
And the MRI showed that
it was different places
in the brain which
were activated
during this kind of trance
and the hypnotic trance.
AUDIENCE: OK.
So you're saying it's
a different thing.
CORINE SOMBRUN: Seems to be.
AUDIENCE: But this based
on however the brain--
CORINE SOMBRUN: Different
part of the brain activation.
AUDIENCE: OK.
And I have another--
maybe a wild one.
But I don't know what would
be the difference between this
and in a state of an
enlightened person.
Like some guru that
achieved, like, you know.
CORINE SOMBRUN: We did
some EEG experience too.
And they realized that between
the trance, [SPEAKING FRENCH]..
NADINE KREISBERGER:
When the person
is resting in between trances--
CORINE SOMBRUN: Resting
state between the trances
was similar to the meditation
experience and people
who were meditating a lot.
And it's kind of the same thing.
AUDIENCE: It's the same-- so
it's the same brain path--
CORINE SOMBRUN: Yeah.
And I had experience
with some enlightenment
during some trances.
Not each time, but I had.
NADINE KREISBERGER: So that
was really fascinating,
that in the resting
state, her brain
is the same as the one of
extremely advanced meditators
who have meditated for decades.
Because they compared her to
Buddhist monks, basically.
AUDIENCE: Thank you.
NADINE KREISBERGER: Yes?
AUDIENCE: So if they're
in the trance state,
there is a resting
between the trances?
Is that what you're saying?
CORINE SOMBRUN: It was
a special experiment.
Experimentation.
So they asked me to go
through a trance, to stop,
and another one, and
stop, and another one.
They thought they could EEG my
brain to know what was this.
NADINE KREISBERGER:
But actually, I
just want to add that
my own experience
and the self-reported
experience of a lot of people
who've learned with her,
it's a sort of high.
It's a sort of place
of empowerment and high
after the trance that might be
that thing of enlightenment.
Close to it.
So yeah.
AUDIENCE: And can you tell
us which part of the brain
this trance activates?
CORINE SOMBRUN: It's
written in the article
you are going to see.
Yes.
But it is not my field.
[LAUGHS]
AUDIENCE: I'll have to read it.
AUDIENCE: One of the
last things that you
mentioned, you said that you
don't have the answers yet.
And I was just wondering what
some of the most pressing
questions were that you have.
In other words, one of the last
things you mentioned, Corine--
CORINE SOMBRUN: Could you
speak slowly, because--
AUDIENCE: Oh, sure.
One of the last
things you said was
that you don't have-- you said,
we don't have the answers yet.
And I was wondering,
what are some
of the most pressing questions
that you're looking for?
NADINE KREISBERGER:
[SPEAKING FRENCH]..
CORINE SOMBRUN: The
answer we are looking for,
does it work in PTSD?
Does it work with
dissociation trouble?
That it works.
This is the answer
we'd like to have.
But we've tried on few people.
So it's promising,
but it's not--
you can't count on this.
And five people is not all,
so we have to go further.
AUDIENCE: The second thing--
the two of us here, we're
both documentary filmmakers,
and we're working
on a project where
there's a doctor, an MD PhD that
worked on something in the '50s
and '60s fairly
similar to this work,
at least in touching some of it.
But no one really
listened to him.
And I was wondering, do
you have similar issues?
In other words, a
trance, in some sense,
do you have any
issues with getting
some of your research seen by
either the academic community
or other communities,
that you're just
kind of getting the
attention of people.
Just because it's un--
it's not necessarily
yes, we seem
to be opening psilocybin
LSD, some of these things,
as being options for treating
PTSD and other things.
And so my question is,
do you have any issues
with getting your work seen?
Seen and understood
easily, I guess,
by the academic community?
NADINE KREISBERGER: It is
controversial for people
who just don't know.
So they hear that,
they associate it
with weird things
just out of ignorance.
And so for Corine, I can say it.
She couldn't say it.
It's been an amazingly
courageous journey.
And also, she's in France,
it's not California.
It's a little bit less--
it used to be a little bit
less open to all those things.
So yes, it's been
difficult. But as Corine
says, if it hadn't
been that difficult,
maybe she would not
have been that rigorous
in her scientific
grounding of that work.
Because she so much
wants to make sure
that nobody can find a
breach into that work,
and nobody can say
it's voodoo, it's
shaman, blah, blah, blah,
with their associations
with those words, that
it forced her to do it
in a super rigorous way.
CORINE SOMBRUN: Mhm.
Yes, yes.
NADINE KREISBERGER: Yes.
But it is challenging, but
there is a momentum right now.
Because just in the
last few months,
all those things
have been happening.
So it's like her
work of 17 years
is now beginning to pay a lot
of fruits, which is beautiful.
For the benefit of
all sentient beings.
AUDIENCE: I was really
interested in when
you would be in
this state, you had
said there was a certain
language that would come out,
and you were unsure of
where this was coming from.
Is there any-- are you doing
anything to look into that?
Is there any sort of research?
CORINE SOMBRUN: Not yet.
Not yet.
It was not a priority,
but we should.
We have a lot to do.
And to try to understand
with linguists
what could be associated
to this kind of language.
Yes.
AUDIENCE: Could you--
would you compare that
to something like automatic
writing and that sort of thing?
CORINE SOMBRUN: It comes
along like automatic writing.
It comes through somewhere.
We don't know.
We don't know.
But this comes out.
That But it has a meaning.
You understand the meaning
when you say it, you tell it.
But we don't know
where it comes from.
NADINE KREISBERGER: I just
want to add one thing to you.
That in the sessions we
do one-on-one with people,
Corine does a trance
on them first.
And in several cases, when
Corine is doing her trance,
the person began answering
in that same language.
And they were having
a dialogue somehow
and really understanding
each other.
AUDIENCE: That's
very interesting.
CORINE SOMBRUN: It's
what I was talking about,
a prayer language or something,
who could tell you directly
to your cells
instead of your mind.
It's very weird and very
interesting, I think.
NADINE KREISBERGER: And
people whose native tongues
are different.
So again, really intriguing.
Yeah.
AUDIENCE: Just a quick
follow-up question.
Are you aware of-- this
is always an observation,
so you were recording yourself,
or you were observing someone.
Are you aware of things that
you are saying and doing
with your body in
that trance state?
Is the person aware of these
things that they are saying?
NADINE KREISBERGER: Yes.
Absolutely.
That's the thing.
There is always an observer
aware of what's going on.
Always.
And you can always
decide to come back.
Yes.
The observer is there.
AUDIENCE: Another
quick question.
So seizures are also electrical
activity in the brain.
This also seems like
an electrical activity
in the brain.
How do they compare?
One is involuntary, and
the other one is voluntary.
Is that the difference?
NADINE KREISBERGER:
Seizures [SPEAKING FRENCH]..
CORINE SOMBRUN:
[SPEAKING FRENCH]..
See
NADINE KREISBERGER:
[SPEAKING FRENCH]..
CORINE SOMBRUN: Yes.
Oh, no.
The EEG showed that it
was completely different.
AUDIENCE: Interesting.
CORINE SOMBRUN: Yeah.
It's completely different.
But in Mongolia, some
epileptics, a kind of epilepsy,
we don't know which one, are
compared to shamanic powers.
NADINE KREISBERGER: In many
traditions, actually, right?
Epileptic people are
considered the shamans.
Yeah.
CORINE SOMBRUN: Yeah.
So it's not all the
epileptics, but some of them
are considered shaman.
AUDIENCE: Thank you.
AUDIENCE: Hi.
Thank you for the talk.
I just have a
question about diet.
Is it-- is there
any special diet
that will help to induce
these kinds of trance states?
CORINE SOMBRUN: No diet.
No, no, no.
The diet was for
Francis, the researcher,
to help to heal the cancer.
It was just for him.
But we don't have any diet
in this kind of practice.
But we should, maybe.
[LAUGHS]
AUDIENCE: I was wondering, in
Mongolia, with the shamans,
do they have certain age
limits before they let children
partake in trance
states, and then
how does that translate
into your work?
CORINE SOMBRUN: It's
not allowed to children.
No.
They wait, the
children is 18, 19, 20.
It's never before that age.
And the end of the practice
depends on your teeth.
AUDIENCE: Really?
CORINE SOMBRUN: Yes.
If you lose your teeth,
you lose your power.
Why?
Because you are not
able to eat meat.
AUDIENCE: So you need to
eat meat to be able to go--
NADINE KREISBERGER: In that
culture, talking about diet,
yes.
But usually, in a family, when a
child shows signs of something,
it often starts with the child
being very sick, like usually.
They don't understand
what's going on.
And then they take
the child to a shaman,
and the shaman might
say, oh, this one
has the skills, usually
from an ancestor.
And they explain to the family,
if you don't train the child,
the child might die.
They might have more
and more illnesses,
more and more problems.
But then the age,
apprenticeship.
I think it's, on average,
13 years in Mongolia,
the apprenticeship
to become a shaman.
So it's not like, OK.
I'm going a few months in the
Amazon, and then I'm a shaman.
It's 13 years of very
harsh apprenticeship
to be able to deal with
all those dimensions.
AUDIENCE: Have you
heard of light language?
Because it sounds
like what you were--
what I observed as similar to--
what people call light language.
I can connect you
with some people.
CORINE SOMBRUN: Oh, yes.
NADINE KREISBERGER: Yes.
Yes.
AUDIENCE: Do you see your
work as having similarities
to holotropic
breathwork, and if so,
do you want to work
with them to get uptake
in the psychiatric community
if your research is successful?
NADINE KREISBERGER: Yes
holotropic breathwork.
There are a lot of parallels
between what this tool can do
and many other things like that.
What we've seen with a lot of
people who have experienced
holotropic breathwork is the
intensity, the physicality,
all that happens like that.
This doesn't happen in this.
It's much lighter
as an experience.
But definitely.
Definitely.
Because those are just different
tools to access, there.
So absolutely.
And Stan Grof is
aware of our work.
CORINE SOMBRUN: Right.
But each tool, this
is interesting.
Because each tool sends
you in different places.
So this kind of
tool could help you
to do some researching
in a certain field.
But this can go push
you to another training.
So each tool has
its own interests.
AUDIENCE: Can we
experience the sound loop?
CORINE SOMBRUN: [INAUDIBLE] No.
NADINE KREISBERGER:
[LAUGHS] Well, not today,
but we definitely use it
in our one-on-one work.
So definitely that's a setting.
CORINE SOMBRUN: We could
organize a workshop in Google.
We could organize a workshop.
You have to be--
10 is a good amount of people.
We need good speakers.
And it's possible.
Yeah.
And usually, in the
workshop with the artists,
it takes three
days to teach them
how to self-induce a trance.
Three days of
practicing the trance.
It means seven, eight
trances, and after that, they
are able to self-induce.
So it's not that long.
So it depends on
each, of course.
Some will need more time
to self-induce a trance.
But the average is around this.
NADINE KREISBERGER: Well,
thank you very much.
It was beautiful to share
all of this with you.
Again, this beautiful
idea, the encounter
between an ancient technology
and the new technology,
especially being here at Google,
I think is quite intriguing.
I hope it piqued your
curiosity, and much, much, much,
much more to explore.
Thank you, [? Marios, ?] again.
SPEAKER: Yeah.
Thank you.
It was amazing.
[INAUDIBLE]
