♪[THEME MUSIC]♪
>>> WELCOME TO 
POTUS, 2016, WHERE
WE CALL THE 
PRESIDENTIAL HORSE
RACE AND POUR COLD
HARD FACTS ON THE 
OVERHEATED 
CAMPAIGN RHETORIC.
A PIVOTAL WEEK.
AFTER BIG VICTORIES IN THE
NORTHEAST TUESDAY,
BOTH FRONT-RUNNERS
HILLARY CLINTON 
AND DONALD TRUMP 
ARE ACTING LIKE 
THEY HAVE THE 
NOMINATION SEWN
UP. HILLRY IS ONLY ATTACKING
REPUBLICANS RATHER
THAN A CERTAIN
DEMOCRATIC SOCIALIST,
AND TRUMP BEGAN A SERIES
OF PREPARED ALMOST
PRESIDENTIAL-
SOUNDING SPEECHES 
WITH A FOREIGN POLICY
ADDRESS THAT EVEN OFFERED A
TINY OLIVE BRANCH TO "OUR
FRIENDS IN THE MUSLIM WORLD."
ELECTION DETAILS 
IN A MINUTE.
>>> BUT A LESS-NOTICED
DEVELOPMENT THIS WEEK IS ALSO
OF SIGNIFICANCE TO THE
NOVEMBER ELECTION.
IT TOOK PLACE IN 
THE SWING STATE OF
NORTH CAROLINA 
WHERE A FEDERAL 
JUDGE UPHELD THE
GOP-LED CRACKDOWN ON VOTING.
THAT MEANS I.D.s WILL BE
REQUIRED, SAME-DAY REGISTRATION
ABOLISHED AND
EARLY VOTING CURTAILED.
THIS IS LIKELY TO 
SUPPRESS VOTING 
AMONG DEMOCRATIC
LEANING MINORITIES AND STUDENTS.
AN APPEAL IS BEING FILED. THE
SUPREME COURT MODERNIZED
THE CIVIL RIGHTS ACT
THREE YEARS AGO MAKING
THESE KINDS OF RESTRICTIONS MORE
LIKELY.
>>> WHAT ELSE IS ON 
TODAY'S PROGRAM?
AFTER WE ANALYZE
THE PRIMARY RESULTS,
WE'LL DO A REALITY CHECK
ON A HOT CAMPAIGN
ISSUE THAT EVEN
CAME UP IN TRUMP'S Q&A
AFTER HIS VICTORY
REMARKS TUESDAY.
>> THAT IS THE SINGLE-BIGGEST
QUESTION I'M GETTING,
STUDENT DEBT. WE'RE
GOING TO WORK ON THAT.
WE'RE GOING
TO MAKE IT MUCH DIFFERENT.
>> DIFFERENT HOW? THE CHANCELLOR
OF THE CITY UNIVERSITY
OF NEW YORK WILL BE HERE
TO SHARE HIS THOUGHTS.
ALSO A SCHOLAR
FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN
WITH A W-2 SOLUTION --
DEDUCT A PERCENTAGE OF TUITION
FROM A STUDENT'S
FUTURE PAYCHECKS.
FIRST, THOUGH, LET'S SEE
WHO'S CLOSE TO THE FINISH
LINE AND WHO HAS COME UP LAME.
YES, TIME FOR THE HORSE RACE.
IT'S HARD TO OVERESTIMATE
HOW GOOD A NIGHT
DONALD TRUMP HAD ON TUESDAY.
HE NOW STANDS JUST
283 DELEGATES AWAY
FROM CAPTURING THE
NOMINATION OUTRIGHT.
AFTER LAST NIGHT'S
SWEEPING VICTORIES
IN FIVE EASTERN
STATES, HIS SLIMMEST MARGIN
WAS A YAWNING 29% OVER
KASICH IN CONNECTICUT.
TRUMP HAS GARNERED
9.9 MILLION VOTES, 
MORE THAN MITT ROMNEY'S TALLY
IN 2012 AND THE BILLIONAIRE
IS ON THE PATH TO
GET MORE REPUBLICAN
VOTES THAN ANY
REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE SINCE THE
MODERN PRIMARY SYSTEM
WAS ESTABLISHED.
IF THAT'S NOT ENOUGH TO CONVINCE
NEVER-TRUMP REPUBLICANS,
HE SHOULD OR WILL BE THE
NOMINEE, HERE'S MORE EVIDENCE.
TRUMP HAS BROKEN
THROUGH THE 50% BARRIER IN SIX
CONSECUTIVE STATES.
GETTING MORE THAN HALF THE
VOTES IS CRUCIAL TO TRUMP
RUNNING THE TABLE
IN THE WINNER TAKE ALL OR
WINNER TAKE MOST
STATES THAT REMAIN ON
THE GOP SLATE. TED CRUZ
HAS BEEN MATHEMATICALLY
SHUT OUT NOW FROM
CLINCHING THE NOMINATION AND IS
HAVING AN INCREASINGLY
TOUGH TIME CONVINCING
REPUBLICANS THAT
HIS DISCIPLINED DELEGATE HUNT
STRATEGY WILL EVEN SEE THE LIGHT
OF DAY AT THE CONVENTION.
MAYBE THAT'S WHY 
HE NAMED A RUNNING
MATE AS AN ACT OF 
DESPERATION.
SO TO WHOM ARE THE REMAINING
616 GOP DELEGATES LIKELY TO GO?
WELL, TRUMP LEADS
BY DOUBLE DIGITS IN NEW JERSEY
AND IS AHEAD IN WEST
VIRGINIA WITH CRUZ POLLING
WELL IN THE
CONSERVATIVE STATES OF
NEBRASKA, MONTANA,
AND SOUTH DAKOTA.
THE RACE COMES DOWN TO THE
HIGH VALUE WINNER TAKE
MOST STATES OF CALIFORNIA
AND INDIANAPOLIS
WHICH TOGETHER HAVE
229 DELEGATES.
CRUZ IS PRAYING FOR A REPEAT
OF WISCONSIN IN INDIANA
NEXT TUESDAY BUT
RECENT POLLS SHOW TRUMP
IN THE LEAD, ALL 
HOPES OF WINNING 
INDIANA AND THE NOMINATION
ITSELF MAY REST OF THE
FRAGILE COLLABORATION
WITH JOHN KASICH WHO
HAS STOPPED 
CAMPAIGNING THERE.
BUT HOW MANY KASICH SUPPORTERS
WILL VOTE FOR CRUZ?
AND KASICH ISN'T
EVEN EXPLICITLY ASKING THEM TO.
FURTHER DISCOURAGING
CRUZ, TRUMP, THAT TOP BLUE LINE,
HAS WIDENED HIS
LEAD IN CALIFORNIA
WHERE POLLS NOW 
SHOW HIM AHEAD BY 
ABOUT 20 PERCENTAGE POINTS.
CRUZ HAS LITTLE TIME TO LOSE.
PRIMARY BALLOTS 
WILL BE ARRIVING 
IN CALIFORNIA
MAILBOXES IN TWO WEEKS.
MORE THAN HALF OF
CALIFORNIANS VOTE BY MAIL.
ON THE DEMOCRATIC
SIDE, HILLARY CLINTON HAD A
STELLAR NIGHT, LOSING
JUST ONE STATE,
RHODE ISLAND, TO BERNIE SANDERS.
HILLARY IS NOW JUST 232
DELEGATES SHY OF WINNING
THAT NOMINATION,
WHILE BERNIE IS MORE THAN A
THOUSAND DELEGATES
SHY.
THIS LEAVES BERNIE
WITH A DIFFICULT CHOICE --
FALL IN LINE TO REUNITE
THE PARTY OR CONTINUE
TO LEAD A WELL-FUNDED
CAMPAIGN STOCKED
WITH YOUTHFUL ENTHUSIASM
FOR IMPORTANT ISSUES LIKE
CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM
AND FREE COLLEGE TUITION.
AND LET'S GET
RIGHT TO THAT COLLEGE ISSUE,
OUR FOCUS TODAY. THE DEMOCRATS
AND DONALD TRUMP
SAY THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD
STOP PROFITING OFF STUDENT DEBT,
SANDERS THINKS PUBLIC
UNIVERSITIES SHOULD BE FREE.
CLINTON ADVOCATES LOWERING
TUITION THROUGH FEDERAL GRANTS
TO STATES. KASICH SAYS
GRADUATES SHOULD PAY OFF
LOANS THROUGH PUBLIC
SERVICE. CRUZ WANTS TO
ABOLISH THE DEPARTMENT
OF EDUCATION.
WE GOT TO WONDERING HOW
A PERSON WHO RUNS A
UNIVERSITY HEARS THE
CAMPAIGN RHETORIC.
JAMES B. MILLIKEN JOINS US,
HE'S THE CHANCELLOR OF THE
CITY UNIVERSITY OF
NEW YORK WHICH SERVES ROUGHLY A
HALF MILLION
STUDENTS ON 24 CAMPUSES.
BEFORE COMING TO CUNY IN
2014, HE WAS PRESIDENT OF
THE UNIVERSITY OF
NEBRASKA AND EARLIER VICE
PRESIDENT OF THE
UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA.
WELCOME CHANCELLOR
MILLIKEN. 
>> THANK YOU,
GREAT TO BE WITH YOU.
>> FULL DISCLOSURE, THIS
PROGRAM IS A PRODUCTION OF THE
CITY UNIVERSITY OF NEW YORK.
CUNY HAS -- I'M GOING TO GO
THROUGH SOME OF THE HISTORY
WITH YOU. IT HAD FREE BUT
MERIT-BASED TUITION UNTIL 1970,
MY PARENTS WENT FOR FREE.
THOSE IN NIGHT SCHOOLS AND
GENERAL STUDIES HAVE PAID
SINCE WAY BACK IN 1909 AND
WITHOUT ANY SCHOLARSHIPS.
THEN IN THE JUSTICE CONSCIOUS
1970s CUNY LET EVERYONE
IN FREE, OPEN ENROLLMENT
BUT WITH THE CITY'S FISCAL
CRISIS IN '76 TUITION
WAS INSTITUTED AND
CLEARLY FROM THAT 
BRIEF HISTORY, 
BOTH THE ECONOMY AND POLITICS
MATTER TO THE TUITION
AND EQUALITY QUESTIONS,
SO WHERE ARE WE NOW
IN THAT DUALITY TO USE NEW
YORK'S CUNY SYSTEM
AS AN EXAMPLE?
>> WELL, CUNY, AS YOU SAID,
YOUR PARENTS WENT FOR FREE
AS DID JONAS SALK
AND COLIN POWELL AND ANDY GROVE,
MANY PEOPLE HAVE BENEFITED
FROM CUNY'S PROMISE.
CUNY HAS ONE OF THE LOWEST
LEVELS OF TUITION IN
THE COUNTRY. 70% OF
OUR STUDENTS DO GO TUITION-FREE
THROUGH PELL GRANTS
NATIONALLY AND THROUGH A
VERY GENEROUS TUITION
ASSISTANCE PROGRAM
THAT THE STATE OF
NEW YORK PROVIDES AND
OTHER INSTITUTIONAL GRANTS.
SO CUNY OFFERS THE
PROMISE OF ONE OF THE MOST
AFFORDABLE INSTITUTIONS
IN HIGHER EDUCATION
AND IT'S PROBABLY
WHY SO MANY STUDENTS WHO ARE
LOW INCOME, SO MANY
NEW AMERICANS,
40% OF OUR UNDERGRADUATES,
WERE BORN IN
OTHER COUNTRIES, 40%
COME FROM A HOUSEHOLD OF
$20,000 OR LESS INCOME. SO
CUNY IS STILL THE PLACE,
I THINK, THE PATHWAY TO THE
MIDDLE-CLASS THAT IT WAS IN
1909 AND IN 1970. IT'S JUST
DONE A LITTLE DIFFERENTLY.
SUPPORTED DIFFERENTLY
WITH STATE AND FEDERAL AID
TO OFFSET TUITION, WHICH
IS LOW GENERALLY.
THEN ON THE DEBT
SIDE, WHICH I HEARD ONE OF THE
CANDIDATES REFER TO
ON THE TAPE, BECAUSE OF THE LOW
TUITION AND HIGH FINANCIAL
AID AT CUNY, 80% OF OUR
GRADUATES LEAVE WITH
NO FEDERAL DEBT AND THOSE THAT
DO HAVE DEBT LEVEL
ABOUT HALF THE NATIONAL AVERAGE
FOR PUBLIC INSTITUTIONS
SO MAKING IT FREE FOR
THE OTHER 30% MAY 
NOT BE THE HIGHEST
PRIORITY AT CUNY 
AND WE CAN TALK A 
LITTLE BIT ABOUT 
THAT. 
>> WELL, HOW MUCH DIVISION,
IF YOU CAN PUT A NUMBER ON IT,
BECOMES A BARRIER
FOR THE POOREST STUDENTS
TO ENTER? BERNIE
SANDERS IS RUNNING ON THE
EXAMPLE OF GERMANY
WHICH HE SAYS CHARGES $1600 A
YEAR TUITION NOW AND THEY'RE
GOING TO FREE BECAUSE
THEY DECIDED IT 
WAS TOO MUCH OF A 
BARRIER FOR TOO 
MANY. 
>> RIGHT. IN THIS
COUNTRY WE'VE HAD A LOT OF
RESEARCH DONE ON 
THIS SUBJECT AND 
WE FOUND PEOPLE TEND TO
OVERESTIMATE THE COST OF
HIGHER EDUCATION, ONE,
PARTICULARLY PUBLIC HIGHER
EDUCATION AND THEY
UNDERESTIMATE THE AMOUNT
OF AID AVAILABLE. SO AT THE
END OF THE DAY NOTHING IS FREE.
SOMEBODY IS GOING TO PAY FOR
IT, THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT,
THE STATE GOVERNMENT TUITION.
SO IN THE CASE OF
CUNY, FOR INSTANCE, OR NEBRASKA
OR NORTH CAROLINA, ONE OF OUR
JOBS IS TO MAKE SURE THAT
PEOPLE UNDERSTAND
THAT COLLEGE IS AVAILABLE AND
THERE IS ASSISTANCE FOR
THEM, PARTICULARLY THESE HAVE
THE GREATEST NEED.
THOSE ARE THE PEOPLE THAT
ARE HAVING THEIR NEED MET
RIGHT NOW AT CUNY WITH PELL
GRANTS AND OTHER ASSISTANCE.
SO IN PART IT IS AN EDUCATION
PROCESS, A COMMUNICATION
PROCESS, AND I THINK AROUND
THE COUNTRY WE'VE BEEN
DOING A BETTER JOB OF THIS
BUT THERE IS CERTAINLY MORE
WE CAN DO TO MAKE
SURE PEOPLE HAVE THE --
AN UNDERSTANDING OF HOW
IT WILL BE AFFORDABLE
FOR THEM AND THEIR FAMILIES.
>> AND I GUESS DIFFERENT
UNIVERSITIES CAN APPROACH
IN THE DIFFERENT WAYS.
YOU WERE TELLING 
ME BEFORE WE WENT 
ON THE AIR ABOUT THE CAROLINA
COVENANT WHEN YOU
WERE AT THE UNIVERSITY
OF NORTH CAROLINA AND
YOU DID IT DIFFERENTLY YET IN
NEBRASKA.
SO YOU'VE GOT 
EXPERIENCE FROM 
THREE DIFFERENT
AREAS OF THE COUNTRY.
HOW DO THEY 
COMPARE?
>> SO IN EACH OF THESE THREE
CASES, NEW YORK AND NEBRASKA
AND NORTH CAROLINA,
IN PART THE GOAL WAS TO
MAKE SURE THAT PEOPLE COULD
AFFORD COLLEGE BUT ALSO
THE GOAL WAS TO HAVE
A PROGRAM THAT COULD BE
WIDELY KNOWN AND
PEOPLE COULD BECOME FAMILIAR
WITH IT EARLY ON.
SO CATCHY PHRASE,
A CAROLINA COVENANT,
WHICH PROMISED THAT
THOSE STUDENTS --
LOW-INCOME STUDENTS WHO
NEEDED FINANCIAL
AID WOULD GRADUATE WITH
ZERO DEBT AND THAT WAS WIDELY
PROMOTED AND WE FIND,
NOT SURPRISINGLY,
THAT PEOPLE WITH THE GREATEST
FINANCIAL NEED ARE
ALSO THE MOST AVERSE TO
TAKING ON SIGNIFICANT DEBT.
THAT HAS BEEN A VERY
SUCCESSFUL PROGRAM
IN NORTH CAROLINA.
IN NEBRASKA WE HAD A PROGRAM
CALLED COLLEGE-BOUND
NEBRASKA WHERE WE
TOOK EVERY STUDENT WHO HAD ANY
NEED-BASED AID AND
ADDED ADDITIONAL AID SO THAT
THEY WERE -- ATTENDED
TUITION FREE. AND, AGAIN,
WITH THE GOVERNOR AND OTHERS
PROMOTED IT AROUND THE
STATE SO IT WOULD
BECOME WELL KNOWN TO
HIGH SCHOOL AND MIDDLE
SCHOOL STUDENTS SO
PEOPLE KNOW THEY
CAN AFFORD COLLEGE.
THE SAME THING I THINK IS
IMPORTANT AT CUNY,
AND WE ADVERTISE IN THE
SUBWAYS AND IN THE PAPERS
AND ON THE RADIO AND
EVERYWHERE ELSE TO
MAKE SURE THAT 
PEOPLE KNOW WHAT A
TERRIFIC VALUE
PROPOSITION CUNY IS.
IT'S HIGH QUALITY, LOW TUITION,
AND THE SIGNIFICANT FINANCIAL
AID OPPORTUNITY.
>> AND COMMUNITY
COLLEGE STUDENTS HAVE A HIGH
DROPOUT RATE AND
CAN TAKE YEARS TO FINISH.
LACK OF MONEY,
FAMILY RESPONSIBILITIES,
ETC., AND THERE'S A MODEL
AT CUNY THAT IS GETTING A
LOT OF NATIONAL 
ATTENTION IN THIS 
REGARD CALLED THE
ASAP PROGRAM, ACCELERATE,
STUDY, AND ASSOCIATE
PROGRAM, THE ASSOCIATE DEGREE
BEING WHAT YOU GET
AT COMMUNITY COLLEGE.
>> RIGHT. RIGHT. SO THE GOAL
THAT I THINK ALL OF US
SHARE IS TO HAVE A
HIGHER LEVEL OF 
EDUCATIONAL
ATTAINMENT IN THIS COUNTRY.
BY FAR THE 
MAJORITY OF ALL 
NEW JOBS REQUIRE 
EDUCATION BEYOND 
HIGH SCHOOL AND WE
FIND THAT WHILE WE
WERE FIRST IN THE WORLD IN
EDUCATIONAL ATTAINMENT A
DECADE OR SO AGO, 
NOW WE'RE 14, 15, 
SOMETHING LIKE 
THAT.
SO THE PRESIDENT 
SET THE GOAL BEING
FIRST IN THE WORLD
AND I THINK FROM A
COMPETITIVE SENSE, FOR A
COUNTRY WE RECOGNIZE THAT'S
IMPORTANT BUT ALSO FOR
INDIVIDUAL OPPORTUNITY,
WE KNOW THE DIFFERENCE
IT MAKES FOR INCOME AND
ALL KIND OF OTHER
IMPORTANT FACTORS.
SO THE GOAL IS NOT
TO HAVE THE HIGHEST ENROLLMENT.
ACCESS AND 
AFFORDABILITY IS A
SIGNIFICANT PART 
OF THE EQUATION, 
BUT ALSO SUCCESS, RETENTION,
PROGRESS TOWARDS DEGREE
AND ULTIMATELY GRADUATION.
WE WANT EVERY 
STUDENT WHO COMES 
INTO CUNY TO LEAVE
WITH A DEGREE THAT
WILL HELP THEM 
MOVE INTO THE 
MIDDLE-CLASS, HAVE
A BETTER QUALITY 
OF LIFE AND
SUPPORT THEIR FAMILIES.
>> I SEE 17% OF ALL CUNY
COMMUNITY COLLEGE STUDENTS
GET THE TWO YEAR
DEGREE IN THREE YEARS.
THAT'S LOW, 17%, BUT THOSE
IN THE ASAP PROGRAM, 57%.
>> RIGHT. SO NATIONALLY
URBAN COMMUNITY
COLLEGE GRADUATION
RATE OVER THREE 
YEARS IS ABOUT 16%, 17%. SO IT'S
A SIGNIFICANT
PROBLEM NATIONWIDE.
SO WHAT CUNY HAS DONE OVER
ALMOST THE LAST TEN YEARS
IT STARTED BUT ONLY
IN THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS
STARTED TO GROW TO
SCALE IS TO INSTITUTE A
PROGRAM WITH A NUMBER
OF INTERVENTIONS THAT
WE KNOW WORK, FULL
FINANCIAL AID, 
FULL TIME ATTENDANCE, 
INTRUSIVE ADVISING AND IN
NEW YORK A FREE METRO CARD
BECAUSE WE FOUND
THAT'S WHY STUDENTS WERE
SKIPPING CLASSES, 
MAKING CHOICES 
ABOUT PAYING THEIR
TRANSPORTATION COSTS.
>> BUS AND SUBWAY 
FAIR. 
>> SO A BUNDLE OF THESE
INTERVENTIONS TOGETHER IS WHAT
ASAP IS AND THE DIFFERENCE,
NOT JUST ON CUNY'S ESTIMATE
BUT NATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS
THAT HAVE DONE INDEPENDENT
TESTING HAVE FOUND
TO BE THE MOST EFFECTIVE
MEANS TO INCREASE GRADUATION
RATES AT COMMUNITY
COLLEGINGS AND AS
YOU SAID IT'S DOUBLE IN SOME
CASES TRIPLE WHAT THE
GRADUATION RATES ARE FOR
COMMUNITY COLLEGES. 
>> BUT YOU SAID THE GOAL IS
NOT TO MAXIMIZE ENROLLMENT
AND I UNDERSTAND
WHY A GOAL WOULD BE TO
MAXIMIZE THE SUCCESS OF
THOSE WHO ARE ENROLLED BUT
ISN'T A NATIONAL GOAL TO
MAXIMIZE ENROLLMENT.
IF WE'RE FAST MANUFACTURING
ECONOMY FOR WHICH YOU
DON'T NEED A COLLEGE
DEGREE AND IN THIS GLOBAL
ECONOMY NOW WHERE 
ALMOST EVERYBODY 
OR LOTS MORE 
PEOPLE THAN IN THE
PAST NEED COLLEGE 
DEGREES ONE OF THE
GOALS IS TO MAXIMIZE ENROLLMENT
NATIONALLY.
>> THAT'S PART OF
IT. THOSE JOBS ARE NOT
AVAILABLE FOR PEOPLE
WHO HAVE 12 OR 30 CREDITS,
THEY'RE AVAILABLE 
FOR PEOPLE WHO 
HAVE DEGREES SO 
ENROLLMENT GETS 
YOU IN THE DOOR AND ACCESS
GETS YOU IN THE DOOR AND
AFFORDABILITY CAN KEEP YOU THERE
BUT WHAT WE NEED
TO DO ACROSS THE 
COUNTRY, 
PARTICULARLY AT
OUR URBAN COMMUNITY COLLEGES
BUT I THINK AT MOST OF OUR
PUBLIC INSTITUTIONS IS TO
INCREASE THE GRADUATION
RATES AND SO WE NEED TO
PROVIDE BROAD AFFORDABLE
ACCESS BUT THEN WE NEED
THOSE SUPPORTS THAT STUDENTS
WHO COME IN WITH THE
LEAST PREPARATION
NEED MORE THEIR THAN
COUNTERPARTS AT IVY
LEAGUE INSTITUTIONS AND
THAT'S OFTEN WHAT'S LACKING AND
THAT'S INSTITUTIONAL SUPPORT.
>> YOU'VE DESCRIBED
THREE GOOD-SOUNDING
PROGRAMS TO GET 
STUDENTS THROUGH 
WITH MINIMUM DEBT
IN NEW YORK, NEBRASKA,
AND NORTH CAROLINA,
THREE VERY DIFFERENT STATES
IN THREE PARTS OF 
THE COUNTRY.
I IMAGINE ALL STATE UNIVERSITY
AND URBAN UNIVERSITY
THAT ARE PUBLIC
COLLEGE PRESIDENTS WOULD
TELL ME SIMILAR STORIES AT
THEIR INSTITUTIONS YET
WE SEEM TO HAVE THAT
MASSIVE STUDENT DEBT
CRISIS THAT'S 
BECOME A PROBLEM.
>> MOST EDUCATION IS DONE
AT THE STATE LEVEL SO THAT'S AN
INTERESTING DIMENSION OF
THE PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE ON
COLLEGE COSTS AND ON DEBT.
IN SOME STATES THERE'S BEEN
A DISINVESTMENT IN
HIGHER EDUCATION. THE HIGH
WATERMARK IS A PROPORTION
OF TOTAL COST PROBABLY IN THE
MID-80s SO AS A PERCENTAGE
OF THE TOTAL COST OF
HIGHER EDUCATION
IT'S GENERALLY GONE DOWN AROUND
THE COUNTRY.
IN SOME CASES DOWN
SIGNIFICANTLY. NEW YORK
HAS ONE OF THE BETTER
RECORDS WITH TUITION
ASSISTANCE PROGRAM
AND STUDENT AID SO IN
MANY PLACES THERE
IS A VERY SIGNIFICANT
PROBLEM RIGHT NOW
WHERE STATES HAVE DISINVESTED,
WHERE THEY HAVE
RAISED TUITION TO MAKE UP
FOR THAT DISINVESTMENT
AND THAT HAS LED TO WHAT'S
REFERRED TO AS
SKYROCKETING TUITION RATES AND
CRIPPLING DEBT.
>> LET ME TRY ONE PARTIAL
SOLUTION TO THIS ON YOU
FROM ONE OF THE 
CANDIDATES NOT IN 
THE RACE ANYMORE. MARCO RUBIO
TALKED ABOUT ALTERNATIVE
ACCREDITATION, THAT IS
GETTING ACCREDITATION FOR
COURSES YOU TAKE
IN STUDY AT HOME PROGRAMS LIKE
COURSERA SO THE STUDENT
DOESN'T HAVE TO PAY FOR THE
BRICK AND MORTAR UNIVERSITY
INFRASTRUCTURE.
DO YOU LIKE THAT 
IDEA?
>> WELL, REPRESENTING AN
INSTITUTION THAT PROBABLY HAS
THE LEAST BRICK AND
MORTAR PER STUDENT
IN THE COUNTRY I 
DO LIKE THE IDEA.
RIGHT NOW CUNY HAS
3,000 STUDENTS IN HIGH SCHOOL
TAKING COLLEGE COURSES.
THIS IS ONE WAY THEY
GET COLLEGE CREDIT
BEFORE THEY COME TO THE
UNIVERSITY AND 
IT'S FREE.
I ATTENDED MY FIRST
GRADUATION TWO YEARS AGO AT
A COMMUNITY COLLEGE WHERE 40
YOUNG PEOPLE STOOD UP AT
THE GRADUATION 
CEREMONY GETTING 
THEIR ASSOCIATES
DEGREE. NEXT WEEK,
THE WEEK AFTER THEY
WERE GOING TO GET THEIR
HIGH SCHOOL DIPLOMA.
SO THEY HAD MANAGED TO DO
THAT AT THE SAME TIME.
THAT'S A TERRIFIC 
MODEL.
I THINK MORE ONLINE
EDUCATION WHICH WE'RE DOING
CONSIDERABLY MORE OF AT CUNY
AND YOU SEE AROUND THE
COUNTRY IS IMPORTANT AND
OFFERS MORE OPPORTUNITY
EVEN WITH 24 CAMPUSES
WE CAN'T SERVE EVERYONE
WHO WE WOULD LIKE TO WHO
MAYBE HAVE RESTRAINTS
BECAUSE OF THEIR WORK
OR THEIR FAMILY OR
THEIR LOCATION SO 
BEING ABLE TO 
SUPPLEMENT THAT 
WITH HIGH-QUALITY 
ONLINE EDUCATION 
PROVIDED BY BY OUR
FACULTY I THINK IS
A REALLY IMPORTANT
DIMENSION OF THE 
ACCESS QUESTION. 
>> ALL RIGHT, STAY HERE.
WE'RE GOING TO BRING ON SOME
ADDITIONAL EVIDENCE.
>>> TIME FOR EVIDENCE-BASED
POLITICS WHERE WE POUR
COLD HARD FACTS ON THE
OVERHEATED CAMPAIGN RHETORIC.
LET'S CONTINUE TO THINK
ABOUT THE CAMPAIGN ISSUE OF
HIGHER EDUCATION. COLLEGE LOAN
DEBT HAS BEEN ON A
STEEP INCLINE FOR
MORE THAN A DECADE,
PASSING A TRILLION DOLLARS FOUR
YEARS AGO.
SOME FIXES HAVE BEEN PROPOSED
IN THE PRESIDENTIAL RACE.
HILLARY CLINTON WOULD GIVE
FEDERAL GRANTS TO STATES
TO SUPPORT PUBLIC
COLLEGES AND BRING
TUITION WAY DOWN.
>> MY PLAN FOR DEBT-FREE
TUITION AT PUBLIC COLLEGES
AND UNIVERSITIES WILL EVENTUALLY
ELIMINATE ANY STUDENT DEBT.
>> SO SHE HOPES. BERNIE
SANDERS BELIEVES THAT IN
THE MODERN HIGH-TECH
ECONOMY PUBLIC COLLEGES SHOULD
BE FREE LIKE PUBLIC
HIGH SCHOOLS ARE CURRENTLY AND
CURRENT STUDENT DEBT NEEDS
RADICAL RESTRUCTURING.
>> MY PROGRAM, MAKING PUBLIC
COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES
TUITION FREE, ALLOWING PEOPLE
WITH DEBT TO REFINANCE AT
THE LOWEST POSSIBLE INTEREST
RATES IS A FAIRLY EXPENSIVE 
PROPOSAL. IT'S ABOUT $70 BILLION
A YEAR.
>> MORE PUBLIC SPENDING.
THESE CHANGES WOULD BE MAJOR
AND TREAT ALL STUDENTS THE SAME.
AT FIRST GLANCE THAT WOULD
SEEM FAIR BUT A RECENT STUDY
SUGGESTS THAT IT MIGHT NOT BE.
IT'S MORE OFTEN THE STUDENTS
WITH SMALL LOANS AND
OFTEN NO DEGREE WHO ARE
DROWNING IN DEBT.
HERE TO EXPLAIN
THAT AND TO SUGGEST ONE POLICY
FIX IS SUSAN DYNARSKI,
PROFESSOR OF EDUCATION,
PUBLIC POLICY AND ECONOMICS AT
THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN.
HER PAPER "LOANS
FOR EDUCATIONAL OPPORTUNITY,
MAKING BORROWING
WORK FOR TODAY'S STUDENTS"
WAS PUBLISHED BY THE
BROOKINGS INSTITUTION'S
HAMILTON PROJECT. SHE JOINS
US VIA SKYPE FROM ANN ARBOR.
HELLO, WELCOME TO 
THE PROGRAM.
THANK YOU FOR 
DOING THIS. 
>> THANKS FOR 
HAVING ME. 
>> WHO DO THE DATA SHOW ARE
THE MOST LIKELY TO DEFAULT
ON STUDENT LOANS?
>> THE LOANS MOST LIKELY TO
BE IN DEFAULT ARE IN THE
RANGE OF $5,000 TO $7,000.
SO THE LOANS IN DEFAULT ARE
TYPICALLY SMALLER 
THAN THE LOANS 
THAT ARE IN GOOD 
STANDING.
>> AND WE'RE GOING
TO BRING UP A GRAPHIC HERE
THAT SHOWS SOME OF THIS.
>> SO IF WE LOOK AT
UNDERGRADUATES IN THE U.S.
ALMOST HALF OF THEM DON'T
BORROW ANYTHING, ABOUT 44%.
THAT'S A GOOD
STATISTIC TO START WITH.
ANOTHER QUARTER
BORROW LESS THAN $10,000.
SO WE HAVE 65% OF STUDENTS
WHO BORROW NOTHING OR LESS
THAN $10,000 AND 1%, 2% MIGHT BE
BORROWING MORE THAN $75,000.
THE BIG NUMBERS THAT YOU
HEAR, THE HUNDRED
THOUSAND DOLLARS, THE $75,000
IN DEBT THOSE ARE PEOPLE
WHO TEND TO BE TAKING ON
GRADUATE DEBT SO THEY'RE
NOT PEOPLE WHO WOULD
BE AFFECTED BY SAY THE FREE
PUBLIC COLLEGE OR FREE
COMMUNITY COLLEGE INITIATIVES.
THEY'RE PEOPLE GETTING MBAs,
M.D.s, LAW DEGREES AND
TYPICALLY THEY'RE
PEOPLE WHO ARE MAKING GOOD
MONEY AND THEY
DON'T STRUGGLE WITH THE DEBT.
THE DEFAULT RATE 
AMONG PEOPLE 
GETTING GRADUATE
DEGREES IS QUITE LOW.
>> INTERESTING. YOU MAKE A
DISTINCTION BETWEEN A COLLEGE
LOAN PROBLEM, WHICH
YOU SAY WE DON'T HAVE,
AND A LOAN REPAYMENT
PROBLEM WHICH YOU
SAY WE DO HAVE. WHAT'S
THE DISTINCTION?
>> THE DISTINCTION IS IF WE
LOOK AT DEBT OF $5,000 WHICH
IS WHERE THE DEFAULTS ARE
HAPPENING, WHERE THE DISTRESS
IS HAPPENING, THAT'S
ABOUT $100 A MONTH.
SO FOR PEOPLE WHO
ARE MAKING A REASONABLE WAGE
THAT'S MANAGEABLE AND THE
WAY WE CAN MAKE SURE IT'S
MANAGEABLE IS TO 
HAVE THEIR 
PAYMENTS FLEX UP AND DOWN WITH
THEIR EARNINGS.
SO IF YOU HAVE A BAD YEAR OR
BAD MONTH THEN YOUR PAYMENTS
SHOULD GO DOWN. IF
YOU HAVE A GOOD YEAR,
GOOD MONTH, YOUR
PAYMENT SHOULD GO UP.
THINK ABOUT HOW WE
PAY FOR OUR SOCIAL
SECURITY CONTRIBUTIONS.
THAT I GO UP AUTOMATICALLY
AND GO DOWN AUTOMATICALLY
WHEN OUR EARNINGS RISE
AND FALL. AND SIMILARLY
IN MANY COUNTRIES
THAT'S HOW STUDENT
LOAN PAYMENTS ARE SET UP.
THEY RISE AND THEY
FALL AUTOMATICALLY
AS A PERCENTAGE OF
A PERSON'S EARNINGS.
>> ARE WE DOING THAT AT ALL
IN THE UNITED STATES TODAY?
IF NOT, BECAUSE IT SOUNDS
AT FIRST BLUSH LIKE COMMON
SENSE WHY AREN'T THE
POLITICIANS TALKING ABOUT THAT
AS A POSSIBLE 
SOLUTION. 
>> SO WE ARE DOING
A FORM OF IT.
SO IF YOU THINK OF THE
PRESIDENT'S INITIATIVE SUCH AS
PAY AS YOU EARN AND
NOW THIS REPAY AS YOU EARN,
THESE ARE PROGRAMS
THAT ARE INTENDED TO
LINK A PERSON'S 
PAYMENTS TO THEIR 
INCOME THAT THEY 
DON'T ADJUST IN 
THE WAY AUTOMATICALLY THAT I
DESCRIBED.
YOU APPLY FOR THESE PROGRAMS
AND BASED ON THE PREVIOUS
YEAR'S INCOME A PAYMENT
IS CALCULATED.
SO IF IN THE MIDDLE OF THE
YEAR THERE'S A BIG SHIFT
IN YOUR INCOME, THAT'S NOT
ACCOUNTED FOR. SO, NO,
WE'RE NOT DOING SOMETHING THAT'S
AS AUTOMATIC AS THIS IS.
>> CHANCELLOR, YOU
WANT TO REACT TO THIS OR DO YOU
HAVE A QUESTION 
FOR SCHOLAR GUEST?
>> WELL MAYBE I'D COME BACK
TO THE BROADER QUESTION OF
HOW WE FINANCE HIGHER
EDUCATION AND WHETHER THE
INVESTMENT IN "FREE" TUITION IS
WORTH MAKING.
AT CUNY IT'S ABOUT --
CALCULATED ABOUT $150 MILLION
TO TAKE OUT THE REST OF
TUITION IN COMMUNITY COLLEGES
AND ABOUT $55
MILLION OVER ALL OF OUR
UNDERGRADUATE
POPULATION,
I'M INTERESTED FROM
SUSAN WHETHER SHE
THINKS THAT'S THE 
BEST INVESTMENT 
THAT CAN BE MADE 
WITH NEW DOLLARS. 
>> JUST TO GIVE HISTORICAL
PERSPECTIVE, COMMUNITY
COLLEGE WAS EITHER
FREE OR PRACTICALLY FREE.
SO FREE COMMUNITY 
COLLEGE WOULD GET 
US BACK TO WHERE 
WE ONCE WERE 
BEFORE THE STATES 
DISINVESTED.
I WOULD SEPARATE IN MY MIND
THE QUESTIONS OF WHETHER
COMMUNITY COLLEGE
COULD BE FREE AND OUR
PROBLEMS WITH 
STUDENT DEBT.
THE BIG RAMPUP IN 
STUDENT DEBT IS 
NOT AMONG PEOPLE GOING TO
COMMUNITY COLLEGES,
IT'S AMONG PEOPLE GETTING
GRADUATES DEGREES AND IT'S
AMONG PEOPLE GOING
TO FOR-PROFIT COLLEGES.
SO THE SOUNDBITE 
THAT YOU HAD THERE
FROM CANDIDATE CLINTON SAID
HER PLAN TO MAKE COLLEGE
FREE WOULD ELIMINATE
STUDENT DEBT.
AND THAT'S NOT TRUE IF IT'S
LIMITED TO PUBLIC COLLEGES.
20% OF STUDENTS GO
TO PRIVATE INSTITUTIONS.
AND THEN, OF COURSE, THERE'S
THE GRADUATE STUDENTS WHO
ACCOUNT FOR MOST 
OF THE DEBT SO 
STUDENT DEBT WILL 
ALWAYS BE WITH US 
WHICH IS WHY WE
NEED REPAYMENT TO WORK.
>> VERY BRIEFLY, BECAUSE
WE'RE GOING TO RUN OUT OF
TIME SOON, WHY WOULD IT
BE THE GOVERNMENT'S
RESPONSIBILITY TO
FUND DEBT REDUCTION AT
PRIVATE COLLEGES?
>> IT'S NOT CLEAR TO ME THAT
IT IS THE BEST USE OF THE MONEY.
STUDENT LOAN REFINANCING IS
ABOUT REDUCING INTEREST
RATE AND REDUCING
INTEREST RATE DOESN'T DO
MUCH FOR STRUGGLING
BORROWERS, IT CHANGES THE
PAYMENT BY $20, $30, $40 A
MONTH. SO IF WE WANT TO
HELP STRUGGLING
BORROWERS, REFINANCING IS NOT
THE WAY TO DO IT.
>> LET ME TRY IN OUR
REMAINING MINUTE AND A HALF
OR SO ANOTHER PROPOSAL THAT'S
COME FROM THE REPUBLICAN
SIDE ON THE CAMPAIGN
TRAIL AND THAT IS REPORT
CARDS FOR COLLEGES
SHOWING THE EARNINGS A FEW
YEARS AFTER GRADUATION
OF STUDENTS WITH
VARIOUS MAJORS. THEN
THEY'D KNOW WHAT KIND OF VALUE
THEY'RE LIKELY TO 
GET FOR THEIR 
STUDENT LOAN DEBT IF THEY'RE
GOING TO GET INTO DEBT.
CHANCELLOR, DO YOU
THINK THAT KIND OF
TRANSPARENCY IS A 
GOOD IDEA?
>> THERE'S SOME OF THAT THAT
EXISTS NOW THAT'S AVAILABLE.
I THINK MORE OF 
THAT IS -- WOULD 
BE ADVANTAGEOUS TO
CONSUMERS TO 
STUDENTS AND PHAM 
THESE ARE THINKING
ABOUT COLLEGES AND
MAKING A CHOICE. 
>> AND PROFESSOR?
>> AGREED THAT MORE
INFORMATION CERTAINLY HELPS.
STUDENTS NEED TO 
BE WALKING INTO 
COLLEGE WITH THEIR
EYES OPEN ABOUT 
WHAT THE COST AND 
THE BENEFITS ARE 
AND TO MAKE SMART CHOICES THEY
NEED INFORMATION.
I THINK THE SCORE CARD IS A
GOOD MOVE IN THAT DIRECTION.
>> SOMETIMES IT'S 
MISLEADING BECAUSE
PHILOSOPHY MAJORS 
I'VE READ WHO YOU 
THINK WELL, WHAT 
KIND OF PHILOSOPHY
COMPANY ARE YOU 
GOING TO GO TO 
WORK FOR AFTER 
GRADUATION, 
APPARENTLY THEY DO FAIRLY
WELL BECAUSE THEY TEND TO GO
INTO PROFESSIONAL
TRACK CAREERS SO WHO KNOWS.
WHAT ARE YOU GOING
TO LOOK FOR CHANCELLOR ON THE
CAMPAIGN TRAIL AS WE GET
TOWARD THE GENERAL ELECTION?
>> I THINK SORT OF
BEING HONEST AND 
AND WHAT THE 
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
CAN AND SHOULD DO 
IS IMPORTANT.
AS I MENTIONED BEFORE, MOST
OF PUBLIC HIGHER EDUCATION
IS FUNDED BY STATES.
I THINK THERE ARE 
SOME THINGS THAT 
THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
CAN DO, SIMPIFYING FAFSA IS
ONE IDEA THAT'S
BEEN AROUND FOR A WHILE.
TAKING THE MYSTERY
OUT OF THAT FOR 
PARTICULARLY LOW INCOME FIRST
GENERATION COLLEGE
STUDENTS IS A GREAT IDEA. THAT'S
ONE SIMPLE THING I THINK
COULD BE DONE.
>> CHANCELLOR, PROFESSOR,
THANK YOU BOTH VERY MUCH
FOR JOINING US, 
COMPLEX ISSUE, 
WE'VE TACKLED SOME
PIECES OF IT. 
>> THANK YOU.
>> THAT'S POTUS 2016 FOR TODAY.
WE'RE HERE EACH OTHER POURING
COLD HARD FACTS ON THE
OVERHEATED CAMPAIGN RHETORIC.
NEXT TIME THE INDIANA PRIMARY
AND EXIT STRATEGIES,
HOW DO CAMPAIGNS END?
I'M BRIAN LEHRER,
THANKS FOR WATCHING.
♪[THEME MUSIC[♪
