So
Basically it's going out so I'm a Christian and um
You know, I can't give any like direct evidence
For God but I feel like there. Well, I think that there is a
strong evidence that we can see
by
You know, I'm sure you guys have heard it that we think God's thoughts after him. So
There's like that universal need for
Love justice order peace and
Basically, it says derivatives of his nature
that have been
transferred to us
Because we're in the image of God. This is what you believe like. Yeah, we take on his likeness. So
That's my I mean, that's what I feel the is God horny
Yes. Well, that is God horny
Because I think horny thoughts and if I'm thinking horny thoughts after gods like does that mean that God's horny oh
I know but you're you're referring to something. That's a physical
I'm saying there's there's something deeper the look that needs that for like
How you love your wife or daughter or?
These are like derivatives of his nature. Sure. How could we know that?
Okay, I mean I know it's been said and I know you believe it we can speak it I mean no no no
No, no, okay. I agree with you that we think so. I let's pick one. How about love? We are we good with that
Okay. Okay. I agree that I have loved that. I experienced love that. I love people. How can I know that I'm
experiencing that after God
Well because it's um, it's something that's innate within you like, okay
Then that would mean I mean if it's innate to Matt then why would you think it was
Something from a god? if you think it's innate to him?
Well, I'm saying it's universal so it's within every human being right because we're social animals
You've now successfully described humans. I'm asking what makes you think that these are
indicative of a God that we're getting it from a God that we're thinking this after God you came in with a really
nifty kind of
Footprints style of message and I'm asking that's what you believe. Why would we believe it?
Okay, well I it's just um
Let's see. So I start with that point with you know, the we think you know, all these are are
Derivatives of God and you can't start with that point. That's the finish that that's what we're trying to establish
How do you get to that point that you think these things are derived from a god?
So me saying that every every human being in the world like this was a global like universal
First of all, that's not true
but
But but basically you don't think they're all like but I'm saying these aren't all you don't think there are people that don't experience love
That there are people with with particular psychopathy is that are abnormal that don't experience
Oh, I'm just saying it's not necessarily your ubiquitous, but even to the extent that it's ubiquitous
If every if every human being experienced love that's a human attribute, that's a human attribute. How do you tie that to go?
Well, I mean, that's I
I mean, I I don't I guess I can't yeah
I would think that your your line of reasoning here and I'm just gonna guess from many years of doing this is
I have no other explanation for why all human beings would experience love
Except that this is what God wants us to experience
Okay, he's asking is that close to how your thoughts went
Yeah, I mean I'm just looking at like okay justice order
Like what why do we have these desires within because we have empathy and we have to share space with other people
We're social too - I mean if we weren't a social species if we were more like, you know
Foxes or snakes we would probably experienced this to a much lesser degree
But as a social species we experience these things like most other social species experience them
Ok, so I have to sit here and I have to share space with Tracy and believe me. It's not a half-two
It's Tracy's my favorite person on the show
So this is one of my favorite weeks ever
But Tracy and I have to share space and so that even if we don't fully understand the motivations
there are entirely pragmatic secular justifications for
The how and why we interact there's a the game theory questions where we're trying to study this stuff and the prisoner's dilemmas and all
This stuff but the end of the day even if I was completely selfish
The selfish thing for me to take care about is to make a world that benefits me and it benefits me
to encourage cooperation
To encourage right these sorts of emotional things to encourage a sense of justice would encourage the forgiveness that we talked about to discourage
Revenge those things there are pragmatic justifications for them. But even if we had no known
justification what justification would we ever have for saying these are
necessarily or even likely the result of a god
Well, why why are all these
Equal to a a positive outcome like,
Why are the tongue deep because that's the goal?
I guess that's what I'm trying to express here is like why is he cool something? That's
Like by you seeking out justice by you
trying to
Get along well with her
Yeah, I guess I mean, that's the goal
Well what he's explaining is that number one even like even if he wasn't motivated it would be self-serving
Like it's still self-serving even if he doesn't want to do it
He sees the benefit to doing it, right but what I'm saying, it's funny. We're talking about something within
like so if the world has certain like it's like a video game like
You know, there's there's certain
Variables and
Why do the just like seeking justice love
Being equal to like a positive outcome
That make sense
it's just about I mean what you're calling a positive outcome is surviving and thriving and
If animals didn't want to survive and thrive
They probably wouldn't have made it this far on the planet by now
Right an animal that doesn't want to survive and doesn't show any propensity toward thriving
Right, but you're still explaining something, huh?
I'm trying you're looking at the outcomes of the successes of
Evolution so far see if you list the things that benefit us and then say why do they benefit a sense of justice?
Benefits us and you're saying why does a sense of justice benefit us?
That's not even a why question
It's just a fact that this does in fact benefit us like you might as well be asking
You might as well be you might you might as you might as well be asking
Why does food make me feel good? Why don't any poison instead of an apple?
right because I don't want to die and
Because that's I mean if I wanted to die, I would eat poison. It's just a physical fact
It's a physical fact of the universe and Apple contributes to my well-being drinking battery acid does not to say why that's the way
This isn't a human thing. This is an every species thing. Yeah
Right. I mean they don't all do I mean all species are doing things they in some way benefit their survival and if they can
Achieve it they're thriving. But even if we had no answer, how could you get to God from there?
Okay, well I would take a step here and move forward -
Okay, so I've been I've been studying a near-death experience type stuff and you know
It's a lot to get into but I have I just have some points here. I want to touch on so
The fact that somebody is floating either their body they're able to recall. Hey, no, no, no
No, you don't get to say it's a fact that someone is floating out of their body what you're talking about is reports
so when I ask you how you can get from these universal human emotions to a god and
You either acknowledge that you have no answer or you want to move on to near-death?
Experiences and then when we talk about nearly those experiences you start with the fact that someone is floating out of our body
That's not a fact
Okay, how do you demonstrate that?
Well, you do realize that we've we've tested
These sorts of things. All right, you do realize that
We've tested these sorts of things and we can test them, you know
Like you put a note up on a the top shelf in the in the operating room
And yeah, did anybody see the note did they read the note they're not able to recall right? Yeah. Okay unsurprisingly
All right
But even if they did even if they did even if we knew that people could leave as their bodies as a fact
How hell does that get you know, god, it doesn't
That's just something else that you need an explanation for
if you let me just kind of so just the fact that
okay, there's multiple reports of
Somebody in floating above their body. I mean that could be I guess it could be something to do with the brain, you know
we haven't
I've had that experience in my own, um,
Experience with them sleep paralysis. Yeah, and that experience of floating above a
Dying or drugged altered brain I fail to see why anybody thinks is that's going to give you a more accurate representation of reality
But here's the thing. There are countless reports of
Indian gurus who survive on what they call prana they claim that they eat nothing that they just get energy from the Sun
Lots of reports of that does that mean we have good reason to believe it's true
Well, I mean, I'm just saying like your point
So the fact that there's floating, you know
Somebody can see their body and they're calm and then there's a light that they encounter it kind of
You know and then you you kind of go to the Mount of Transfiguration when Christ. Oh my gosh
Oh, do you realize that not all these stories are remotely the same right and that these stories are being created by humans
who are to have these ideas you might as well be saying that the propensity for people to describe an alien abduction as a an
almond headed almond eyed creature is
evidence that those are the aliens that are actually doing the abduction instead of saying that these stories started after
2001 a Space Odyssey and after these sort of after that what people's notion of an alien changed to aliens used to be
Monsters and robots and then they became kind of an ore and that became the narrative for everybody
if you've been raised with religious ideology in the notion that you have a soul and you go through this experience of
nearly dying and your brain is starved of oxygen and then when you recover
You have to figure out what happened when you were seemingly out of it. Is it more likely that a brain invents a story?
That's consistent with their religious beliefs or that those religious beliefs are true
Well, I mean, it's it's something you have to investigate, you know before you it's also really easy
Because people with the same religious beliefs don't even necessarily have the same experience
Right, but they typically like I've not heard of anybody
They usually encounter beings like human
form, they don't see like an animal come to him or you know, like, uh, I
Heard a panel on near-death experiences where one woman just had the experience of like flying over a landscape. She didn't have beings
Right, well, I'll just I mean that could be something that just you
Know is but the fact that there's a consciousness and they're able to recall
Wait, you were assuming they recall it right? That is this is what they're saying. They remember after they wake up now. We don't know
We don't know that their memory at this point of what actually did or didn't go on while they were unconscious is accurate
but we do know that memory is malleable and flawed and
We invent fictions all the time. We lie to ourselves all the time about what we experience and what we remember happens all the time
Mm-hmm
No, I mean yeah
I've been studying it a little bit and there have been some some reports that are kind of like off from
What is typically reported?
It doesn't matter if everybody reported the exact same thing if every human being who had nearly died and been resuscitated
Reported almost word-for-word the exact same thing
I floated up out of my body a
Bunch of naked Pixies surrounded my head and told me that I was bound for a wonderful place and then you drew me back here
Does that mean we have good reason to believe that they were actually bound for a wonderful place?
Well, I mean what else is gonna convince you that I mean evidence evidence. That is good
Okay, I mean you're saying you're saying that everybody on this planet
Died and they reported the same exact thing that we're talking about floating that naked Pixies or what it yes
You know why they're... why is that
Because it's not telling me about what is with respect to Pixies in another universe
It's telling me what people say and portray about their experience
Yes, they don't even have good reason to think that what they experienced was accurate was like a literal accurate. It is an unfalsifiable proposition
the fact that human beings have similar
Experiences and relay those experiences in a particular way does not mean that those were experiences point to a truth
Yeah, if I dream that I have a dead relative if I dream that I have a dead relative that comes to me and
talks to me one night right in a dream and
I wake up the next day. I have no way to differentiate
They actually came to me in some way and spoke to me in an unconscious state
Versus I dreamed that they came and spoke to me while I was asleep
There's no way that even I as the person who had the experience
Would know that the difference and there's certainly no way that I as someone who didn't have the experience could do it
So I certainly couldn't believe based on Tracy's report. I wouldn't even be able to believe it
Like I would have to say I don't know it would be my defense for near death
So if if it lines up with what how so the fact that they come across a light
they have a sense of love and peace, which I feel or
It is God's nature. Okay, how do you know that? Um
Well, the Bible says that you know, why should we care or believe that the Bible says what why should we care?
believe what the Bible says
Well, you just said like well you were just asking a question
I'm trying to ans... like respond by and no no, here's the problem. You completely missed the 2001 analogy
The fact that people have experiences that are consistent with the Bible is irrelevant if they understood what the Bible was saying
If they had exposure to what the Bible says, it's it's trivial that they would have
experiences or report experiences that were consistent with the Bible just like if they are aware of
How culture has changed with regard to aliens because of 2001?
Or sorry Close Encounters. The Third Kind is probably what I should have said Close Encounters would be the one that that fun only changes
What you're doing is saying yeah, but all these people are reporting these same types of aliens, and I'm asking you, okay?
But you don't have any reason to think that those alien
Experiences are accurate just because they're consistent and then you're saying yes
But they're also consistent with Close Encounters of the Third Kind, which all these people saw. Yeah
okay,
I mean that I was just it corrupts your subject pool. Well, what I'm trying to do is from the majority of these
experiences that
These people experience I still line up with with God
Yeah, and the majority of alien experiences line up with Close Encounters of the Third Kind
Well, I know but God revealed himself through Christ and that okay
and close encounter reveals itself through a film that was produced
But also saying God reveals themselves in Christ is absurd
There is there is no Christ
There is nobody for you to talk to and by the way in the same way that Tracy's dead grandmother can't reveal herself
Through Tracy to me
God can't reveal himself through another person to you
But you're also making mountains of assumptions when you say God reveals himself through Christ
Because you're starting with the belief that the Bible is true and accurate and it's a representation of what God thinks and what God wants
And this Jesus story and all this other stuff
You are biasing all of your thoughts by beginning with the conclusion that you have a narrative that's believable
And the question is why should anybody believe that narrative?
Okay
well
You know with my starting
You know how you're saying the the footprints, you know were thinking God's thoughts after them, you know
Love just peace order all these are kind of derivatives of his nature that have been Pass to us
And you said is vengeance and anger species?
Yeah, I mean those are also I mean it's amazing that god is really like people
Pray, like I mean is it isn't it possible that people are just attributing their natures to God
Isn't it possible that people are making up gods that just happen to be a lot like themselves
And and even before you answer anger before you answer
Because you're adopting a Christian model. Do you think that all those other religions people invented gods that were just like them?
or do are all those other gods real -
Well, I think there's stronger evidence for Christ because you know this
That doesn't remotely come close to answering the question about whether or not you think all those other people made up gods that were like them
Okay
That doesn't remotely come close to answering their question either. Well you think about Allah is and this doesn't really come remotely
Can you answer the question?
Okay. Well, maybe I'm not understanding the question
Do you think that all of the all gods that you don't believe in were invented fictions of people creating their God?
We talking like zeus, thor...
Holy crap, all of them. How many do you not believe in? How what you I apologize. Let me backtrack
because
I've made this question as simple as possible, but your religious beliefs your religious beliefs are
Preventing you from answering honestly
Because you're afraid that there's some trap that's going to expose a flaw in your thinking that's what's going on right now
You believe in Jesus you believe in the biblical Jesus, right?
Yes, you don't believe in other gods. You don't believe in in the God of
Islam or the gods of Hinduism or the gods of any of the other religions ever you don't believe in any of those, right?
Certain mythological... Yes, god, but Allah
Jehovah that's that is
The God that I follow he's saying those are the same God in his head
Yeah, okay saying like they're they're just interpreting
Their view of that same God in a different way, but it okay
You know that will sidetrack us... that'll sidetrack us into how do you know your way of interpretation is right?
But right so let's just go with Zeus
Okay, you think Zeus is an invented fictional real okay, oh you'll go further you think it's just not real
Correct, okay
If we know people can invent gods and we know people have invented gods or at least you are convinced that people invented gods
How is it that you exclude yours?
From being invented
Mm. I just I mean, I think there's a stronger evidence for
For Jesus Christ, I mean he revealed himself. That's the difference. There we go. That's my answer
Okay, you realize that answer says absolutely nothing because you say there's stronger evidence
But you didn't present any evidence and then you say he revealed himself, which is absurd
Well, he came down and how do you know that or how do you know that? I?
I mean
Okay, were you there
I've got to take a step of faith? I wasn't there. Why would you take a step of faith?
Is there any religion that I couldn't believe if I just took a step of faith? I?
Just feel like there's stronger evidence because he kicked like there's
Where's the evidence? What is the evidence? Okay, so you you're telling me that you don't believe Jesus ever existed. I'm not convinced
je... I'm not convinced that Jesus existed. I'm also not convinced that he didn't exist
I'm not I'm definitely not convinced that if Jesus existed that he was in fact divine
Okay, well I mean I just feel like he okay he came down he died
He was he came down and he died for Humanity. He came down and he died
Right, how do you know he came down and where did come down from?
he came, hehehe, he came from heaven how do you know that he's always existed
How do you know that go back to Genesis? How do you know that you Genesis doesn't mention Jesus and
Genesis is irrelevant because you don't get to cite Genesis as if it's evidence for something
Means that that's my response what I respond is, you know, he came down
You know, he died. I understand what you believe. I'm asking why you believe it
Okay, so you're okay the Bible is
New Testament talks about that. I know you what you're gonna say is like why should I have any?
reason to believe that that
Document is true, correct? Why can't I think some other document like, you know the Great Gatsby no no, no. No
No, I don't care about a document. I don't care about other documents. Okay, I'm asking why I should believe this one is accurate
Okay, well
Christianity is is spread worldwide
It's why I believe it's the largest religion the largest or second largest depending on how the numbers work out
But that has no...
The truth of an idea isn't impacted by how many people believe it how long it's been around or anything else?
So you can't go with which one's older you'd have to be Jewish?
You can't go with which one's larger you'd probably be Muslim or potentially depending on how the numbers work
But it just doesn't make any sense if you want with oldest, you'd probably be Hindu. Yeah, well, right
Well, I'm not gonna go with personal experience because I know how that goes. Yeah, I'm just so I'm literally I'm serious
I've been doing this so seemingly for ages and all I want to know is why should I believe?
that the Bible is telling me the truth about what actually happened and what is
Okay, so I would say the revelation of Christ the fact that Christianity is the
strongest consensus of
humans on the earth believe in that
So because it's popular you're saying because it's popular because a lot of people believe it I should believe it too. That's what you're saying
well, I'm just saying like if if this person came down and and they were
Not legitimate just like our somebody else who pops up and creates a cold
Do you think that that person is going to be able to create a following you mean like Muhammad Jesus Christ?
You mean like Muhammad? I?
I mean he did, you know, but so so it's possible then it's possible to get billions of believers
centuries afterwards
Even if you're a fraud, okay
Buddha
okay
So well, I'm just saying like the that's about being how I'd respond like the strongest
consensus of the... consensus of people believe in that faith that
Yet you acknowledge that you just acknowledge that that's not a way to tell whether something is true and yet you come back to it
okay, the number people believe something may be able to tell you the number of people who believe something to come meet you at your
House today has he ever come at you at your house
He has not hey, do you know of anybody who's ever had him come and meet him at their house
Well, that's okay
And I'm not trying to be condescending but that's what the Jews
Said to him when he was on the cross come down off the cross and come to my house and prove that you're real
I'm pretty sure if he's sitting there on the cross. I don't have a question about whether he's real
I have a question about whether he's divine there there was you know, they
they were
Asking the same question that you were that you have right now
Let me let me leave you with this because we let me leave you with this because we're like 25 minutes over time
If you go through if you go through and you read the story
Jesus was tempted right by Satan. Okay, and in the Bible that you believe
Yes, okay, so Jesus is tempted what were those temptations
Food temptation of power
See what else I
know that that one was like
Cast yourself down that doesn't have angels catch. Listen, let's go with the easy one
Well, Jesus is God, right?
Right and he knows what God knows cuz he's God
And he's and he's existed forever cuz he's God
Okay, and he knows what's gonna happen later, right
Right, okay now Satan I'm assuming you think that he was real and the temptation was real
Satan I do believe he's real sure. So Satan has been in God's presence and knows that God is real
Right and Satan knows that God is all-powerful and is the ruler of everything correct
Correct
If I walked into your apartment or your house if you got a big-screen TV
Yes, I do cool and I said to you if you bow down and worship me I'll give you that big-screen TV
What would you say?
I'd tell you to get out wouldn't you say it's already mine
How stupid is it?
for Satan to tempt Jesus with what is already his
Why no, but doesn't it say that how can it be a temptation? power over to Satan?
As he's given power over to him that God is as they've got it Satan is the god of this ages
I believe what does Jesus care about all the lands that he surveys and ruling them if he's God and rules the fucking universe
There's a problem here if I walk into your house and offer you your own TV
The point the correct response is to point out how absurd it is
For me to try to tempt you with something that is already yours
Not only is it an absurd thing to do but both of the entities involved both Jesus and Satan
Would have already realized how absurd that this was
The story okay is obviously fiction
that part of the story is unequivocally for that sure and I okay so
See, so Jesus came and he was supposed to Humble himself and be a perfect sacrifice for people, correct, wasn't he already? Perfect
Why would he have to be perfect?
Well, I'm saying like he had to maintain that perfection until he went and died on the cross
Okay, so a part of that a part of that would be having to Humble himself and
You know be strong and
Fulfill. How strong do you have? How strong do you have to be to turn down someone offering something that's already yours.
I don't think that takes strength will
If you offer me the money that's in my wallet, it doesn't take strength for me to laugh
Right, but I think it was it was not only was
He was he was humble in himself
I mean now he was studying like an example for human beings like
wouldn't want a better example to be like what the hell is wrong with you offering me the stuff I already own
I mean yeah, this story is absurd think about it some more but we're like way over time, we are...
