[MUSIC PLAYING]
INTERVIEWER: Let you
meet these young people.
This is my freshmen class.
This is a good group.
My associate advisor, Charlene.
You can go ahead and tell her,
and then just go around, folks,
and then tell her what
you're doing and--
WIDNALL: Where you're from.
I'm interested in that.
STUDENT: My name is
Charlene [INAUDIBLE],,
and I'm a junior here.
I'm majoring in brain and
cognitive sciences, biology,
and philosophy of science.
I'm from Chicago--
INTERVIEWER: She didn't
have enough to do,
so she thought three
majors would do.
WIDNALL: Yeah.
Uh huh.
STUDENT: And I'm from Chicago.
WIDNALL: Mm hmm.
STUDENT: And I'm
Stephanie Duran,
from Framingham, Massachusetts.
And I'm majoring in either bio
or brain and cognitive science,
I think.
WIDNALL: And you are a freshman?
STUDENT: Yeah.
WIDNALL: So you don't have to
really decide at this point?
STUDENT: Not at the moment.
STUDENT: My name
is Todd Winning,
and I'm from Northeast Alabama.
And--
WIDNALL: How did I know that?
STUDENT: I plan to
major in Course 6.
WIDNALL: Mm hmm.
STUDENT: My name is Judith Star.
I'm from Longmeadow,
Massachusetts.
WIDNALL: Where?
STUDENT: Longmeadow, Mass.
WIDNALL: I don't
know where that is.
STUDENT: Right next
to Springfield.
WIDNALL: Oh, OK.
STUDENT: And I am planning
on majoring in anything
from seven to nine to 10 to 15.
WIDNALL: OK.
STUDENT: My name is Riyaz.
I'm from Kenya.
I plan to major in
Classics [INAUDIBLE]..
WIDNALL: Very good.
What part of Kenya?
STUDENT: Mombasa.
WIDNALL: Mm hmm.
Question
STUDENT: Hi, my name
is Fernando Sabaiyo.
I'm from Los
Angeles, California.
And I plan to major
in [INAUDIBLE]..
WIDNALL: Mm hmm.
STUDENT: I'm Joanna Bonmentry.
I'm from Wayland, Mass.
And I have no idea.
WIDNALL: Doesn't matter.
I think, really, one of
the hidden treasures of MIT
is the freshman curriculum.
You may not feel about
now, but, you know,
I think other
universities would really
give their eye teeth to have
all the freshmen studying
the same thing, more or less.
But you can talk to
one another and don't
have this feeling of, kind
of, centrifugal forces.
Which-- they don't understand.
You do.
But no, that's good.
I mean, it gives
you a whole year
to decide what you want to do.
And at the same
time, you're making
important academic progress.
So, you know, I
think that's fine.
INTERVIEWER: What
they just want--
WIDNALL: What can I do?
INTERVIEWER: Yeah, they've
just watched a distillation
of a couple of our interview
with those ladies, whom
you know all.
WIDNALL: Yeah, sure.
Been there, done that.
INTERVIEWER: That's right.
What I'd like you to do is
reflect upon your experience
here as a woman at MIT--
what it's been like.
For all of the whole group.
You know, I'm interested
in you talking,
and they're asking
you questions.
WIDNALL: Mm hmm.
OK.
INTERVIEWER: And getting
a sense of this place
from that particular
perspective.
The one thing you
heard a little bit
is, would your
perception be the same
if they were talking
about the experience?
WIDNALL: Sure.
INTERVIEWER: And--
WIDNALL: Sure.
INTERVIEWER: --they
went over how
the numbers, after the bimodal
distribution, after they
got to a certain critical
mass, had disappeared.
And that performance, just
for women, went straight up.
WIDNALL: Well I was--
I co-taught that seminar,
"What is Engineering?"
with Milly Dresselhaus.
I think that was an
exciting experiment.
It was interesting.
My good friend,
Norm Augustine, who
recently retired as the
CEO of Lockheed Martin,
went to Princeton to teach.
And I asked him, I said,
what are you going to teach?
He said, well-- he
said I think I'll
offer a freshman seminar
called "What is Engineering?"
I said, great idea.
Let me give you some advice.
But, you know, it
was a lot of fun.
We really enjoyed
it, and, you know,
I think it did have
a big impact on MIT.
But let me back up
just a little bit,
because I can do this kind
of personal retrospective,
because I was there.
I came to MIT as a
freshman in 1956.
I'm from Tacoma, Washington.
And I only began to realize how
strong those influences were.
Two things about coming
from Tacoma, I think,
were important.
One, is that my family's home
was on the final approach
to McChord Air Force base.
So the sky was, literally,
always full of planes.
The second thing
is that the largest
employer in the Northwest
is Boeing Aircraft.
And so, I think it didn't
take me too long to figure out
that-- although I didn't commit
myself when I was a freshman--
but by the end of
my freshman year, I
knew I wanted to major in
aeronautical engineering.
And I think that
a lot of that had
to do with coming from
Tacoma, and having
every anticipation of
returning to the Northwest,
and working for Boeing,
designing airplanes.
INTERVIEWER: Why
did you come here?
What was the attraction at MIT?
WIDNALL: Well I had been
involved in the local science
fair.
I'd won the local science fair.
I was recruited by a very active
MIT educational counselor.
I have to say, I was more
actively recruited by MIT
than any other school.
University of
Chicago said, well,
why should we give
you a scholarship?
You'll just get married
and it won't work.
Well, I was absolutely
insulted by that remark.
And, you know, Stanford--
Caltech didn't take women.
Stanford, you know, I just
non-committal in the sense,
you send in your application,
they'll let you know.
MIT was fiercely
aggressive at recruiting.
We had a whole bunch of
freshmen coming from Seattle.
I think we had a
total group of 20.
We had a meeting in Seattle
with all the incoming students
and the alumni from
Seattle, and they picked me,
as a result of this very
energetic guy from Tacoma,
to give their, sort of,
central scholarship to.
So I was very well
treated by MIT.
I was very well treated
by the Seattle alum.
And, you know, I
really felt that I
was coming to a place that
was really anxious to have me,
and, you know, that's
always a turn on.
So that's why I came to MIT.
I really didn't know
anything about the east.
I didn't particularly like it.
And vowed never to stay here.
Well, so much for--
two out of three ain't bad.
But the thing that surprised
me when I arrived at MIT
was sitting around the
freshmen, or the women's dorm,
in those days,
there were only 20
of us who had made this
decision out of all
the women in the United States.
There were only 20 women
who decided to come to MIT.
I found that a little startling.
I hadn't thought much about
it, but I hadn't realized
the numbers would be so small.
I guess I made a fundamental
decision at that point
that if I was going to worry
about that, that I was not
going to graduate.
So I basically
just sort of plowed
through without asking myself
the question, you know,
was this a good place for women?
Why aren't there more women?
Why was I here?
You know, which people used
to ask me all the time.
I said, I'll get
back to you later.
So I didn't worry about it.
I just sort of
plowed right through
and was very successful
academically.
I did take a little
while to spin up.
I mean, my first
semester at MIT--
we had grades in those days.
First semester at MIT were, by
most measures, was successful,
but I basically got
a B in everything.
So I got a B average
and that put me
on what was then
the dean's list.
But it was not a
spectacular performance.
But then it sort of
going up after that,
and I actually had a
couple of semesters where
I got the coveted five oh.
But I had a marvelous time.
I mean the air department
was a great department.
It's very
faculty-student oriented.
I mean, you know, I
had faculty who just
were tremendously supportive.
Holt Ashley was my
advisor, and Holt
took the place of the guy
from Tacoma, who you know,
was my champion, my mentor,
was always putting me forward
for awards, and
everything like that.
And as I think about
it, throughout my life,
I think I have
accumulated about 10 or 12
what I would view as mentors--
people who have really
taken it upon themselves
to be my sponsor.
And I guess I'd draw an
important lesson from that--
that all of you will
have people like that.
And you will also
be people like that.
You, having been sponsored
and mentored by somebody,
will then have a
responsibility to do
the same for other people.
But needless to say,
I never did leave MIT.
I stayed here, and I am part
of this whole history that's
referred to on the videotape.
I saw MIT and didn't
sit by and watch,
but was an active participant
in MIT going from, basically,
1% women to 43% women.
There are a lot of
watersheds in that activity--
the building of women's dorm;
the, sort of, changing from
admissions being limited by
housing to, more or less,
open admissions; the extremely
important studies that Art
Smith did during--
I don't remember when
that was, in middle 70s,
or late 70s, or middle
80s, or whatever it was--
that basically
showed, statistically,
that the math SAT
scores under-predict
the performance of
women relative to
their senior accomplishments.
And so, if your goal is to
graduate a class of seniors
rather than admit a
class of freshmen,
then you should use
that information,
and MIT began to do that.
And in one year, went
from 26% to 38% women.
And it was a success.
The women's grade
point average--
which is not the only
measure of greatness--
but great point average,
general success,
basically remained equal, or
better than that of the man.
So this bold experiment worked.
And I don't think any other
university in the nation
is as conscious of
what that really means.
I mean, first of all, I don't
think MIT has publicized it.
We've kept it-- we
haven't even told
the students, which, of course,
has created no end of problem.
But we haven't-- we've been
kind of quiet about it.
We know something that other
universities don't really know,
and we just haven't,
you know, I think,
been as forthcoming in sharing--
INTERVIEWER:
Characteristically Mike's.
WIDNALL: Well, it is.
And I actually am a good friend
of the president of Caltech
and his wife, Alice, and she's
a major figure in biology.
And actually, we spent
the weekend together
about a month ago, more or less.
And they would really
like to understand
how they can reshape
their admissions
process to have the kind of
achievement that MIT has had.
So I promised to
send her the data.
And I promised to give
her Mary's email address
so that she could figure out.
Because I think MIT
really understands
what it's doing with
respect to admissions.
I think we see the
result of that all
around us, in the character
of freshman class,
the character of
the senior class,
and the accomplishments of
male and female students
across the Institute.
It's a very different place,
even going down, leaving
the place for four
years, and coming back,
it's a very different
place as I come back.
Even my own department
is different.
My own department.
When I left, I was the
only woman on faculty,
in the aero department--
roughly speaking.
I think Dava Newman was just
coming in at that point.
Now, at this point, I
can't even count the number
of women in the faculty.
And certainly, if I include
the senior research staff, sort
of, principal scientists, people
who teach, and do research,
it's probably 10.
Probably 10 people
in my department.
And it's not unusual to go
to a meeting of our project
and find virtually the
entire room full of women.
I happen to be working on
a project called the Lean
Aerospace Initiative, which
deals with the streamlining
and downsizing of
the defense industry,
and industrial efficiency,
and acquisition reform,
and getting equipment
faster, better, cheaper,
and using more
commercial practices.
So as I said, we've got
an exciting project,
and a substantial
fraction of our team
are senior women scientists--
as well as women graduates.
There is a lot of women graduate
students in the project.
So MIT is a very
different place.
And ultimately, I think MIT's--
and Milly said it on the tape--
MIT's big contribution
will be in its students.
In students that it trains--
give our students the
tools, and the attitudes,
and the technique
they need for success,
not only in a technical sense,
but in leadership sense.
So this can be a
good place for me--
INTERVIEWER: This
means that you all
are here because you
can do it, and because--
and you are gonna do it.
See, right?
WIDNALL: Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: Reaffirmed
in all of that.
What was it like, though, going
through that undergraduate
program at that point in time?
Now, looking back, you
can see all the progress,
but what was the
sense at that point?
WIDNALL: Well, first
of all, you know,
I've got a freshman seminar
too, so I tell them this.
First of all, MIT is a
big intellectual jump.
Maybe not as much--
INTERVIEWER: You know so.
WIDNALL: It really is.
I mean, I know that the
high schools have improved,
so for many students, it's not
as much of an intellectual jump
as it was for me when I came.
I came from a parochial high
school, all girls school,
Catholic school.
We didn't have physics.
I had to get on the
bus every afternoon
and go down to the public
high school to take physics.
You recall that the
faculty passed what I term
Widnall's revenge.
When I was chairman
of the faculty,
we passed a rule that
says physics is not
an absolute requirement
for admission to MIT.
Although--
INTERVIEWER: There's one person
here, took advantage of that.
WIDNALL: Yeah.
Right.
Well, you owe that to me,
because in my daily bus trips
down to take physics at
the local high school.
Anyway, I know most
people do take physics,
but-- and I came with physics,
but, you know, obviously,
in those days, I
think the quality
of the high schools for a
place like MIT, it was just,
you know, it was a
whole different thing.
And so I think the
initial shock was really
like taking a bath in ice water.
And I failed my
first physics test.
I got a 30.
Many people also fail
their first physics test.
But that for me was
a kind of a wake up,
kind of one of these
defining moments,
because that certainly-- the
experience of sitting in that
test and realizing
that I didn't--
that I was not on the same
wavelength as the faculty.
And then reflecting
on that after,
which I had about
two hours to do,
made me realize what MIT
was really expecting.
That it wasn't a matter of
feeding back what you heard--
it was a matter of
creating something new.
You know, solving a problem
you had never seen before.
And somehow, I understood
that, and I said, OK.
So I understand.
I understand what is expected.
And from then on, I think I
had a completely different
appreciation of what MIT was
and what the expectation was.
And having figured it out,
proceeded to, kind of,
charge ahead.
I had a fairly disciplined
approach to MIT.
I never pulled an all nighter.
I never stayed up all night.
I never did.
Being a fluid dynamicist, I know
that time is incompressible.
And what you want to
do is put yourself
in a position where you're
maximizing total system
efficiency.
Which means the
physical, the mental,
you know, the
psychological-- all of that.
You've got, you know, you gotta
get yourself in a situation
where you're maximizing
total system efficiency.
And I don't-- you
know, I mean, maybe,
if you get an emergency
once in a while,
but I mean not as
a regular basis.
You've got to take
care of yourself.
You've just got to keep yourself
so that you can perform.
And there are various
ways to do that.
STUDENT: How did your female
peers cope at the same time?
You had 19 other females.
WIDNALL: Not well.
I would say, in
general, not well.
We had some very
unfortunate things happen.
First of all, we had more women
come, than MIT had planned for.
So they put the--
fortunately I was not
one of the women--
but they put half of the
women in a temporary living
situation, over on, I think
it was Marlborough Street.
They rented a brownstone.
They put them over there.
And they put me and a bunch
of others in the women's dorm.
In about November.
I think the landlady decided
that the girls weren't
keeping their rooms clean.
And she, literally, threw
them out on the street.
She took their belongings, and
put them out on the street.
Well, MIT had to do a little
catch up all, and it put--
it found temporary
accommodations
for many of those women
students in the BU dorms.
But the study conditions
are not adequate.
I mean, the BU women students
and MIT women students
don't have that much in common.
[LAUGHTER]
You know, a lot of those
women students flunked out.
I mean, it was-- including
my very best friend.
I mean, I had a friend who
was put in that situation,
and she flunked out.
So, you know, it's
not a happy story.
I think it was probably that
incident, as much as any, that
convinced MIT that if it was
going to have women students,
it had to do it right.
And I think that was
one of the motivations
for, basically, going over.
There's a famous story--
Jillian Stratton get
in a cab, and go over
to see Mrs. McCormick,
and talk her
into building a women's dorm.
Of course, little did we know
that co-ed dorms would soon
become--
INTERVIEWER: Yeah.
WIDNALL: --you know proper.
You know, we didn't see that.
We didn't know that was coming.
So, you know, the
housing problem
have ultimately solved itself
in lots of different ways.
But the initial step in
that was the women's dorm.
So no, MIT was a
very demanding place.
And a lot of people, you
know, had difficulty with it.
INTERVIEWER: So you took
your degree here and then--
WIDNALL: I stayed.
INTERVIEWER: You stayed.
WIDNALL: And I stayed, and
I stayed, and I stayed.
INTERVIEWER: Right, OK.
WIDNALL: I've only
been away from MIT
for two periods in Washington.
I went down in
1974, where I served
as the director of
university research
for the Department
of Transportation.
And that was another one
of these mentor things.
I had acquired a
mentor along the way.
Just even was a
touch and go mentor.
I didn't really, you know,
because he was actually the--
he was Bob Cannon, actually.
He used to be in our mechanical
engineering department.
Met him several times.
He was then the Assistant
Secretary at the Department
of Transportation.
And he asked me to come
down and run this program.
And just before I
got there, he left
to become dean of
engineering at Caltech.
And he called me from
his cellular phone
on the way out of Washington,
saying, well, have a good time.
I just want you to know
that I won't be here.
It's probably the best thing
that ever happened to me,
because then I was
totally independent.
I didn't have somebody
to take care of me.
I had to do everything myself.
So it was a real
learning experience.
And of course,
obviously, the other time
was going down to
Washington and being
Secretary of the
Air Force, which was
a truly incredible experience.
Really incredible experience.
INTERVIEWER: Let's get to that.
WIDNALL: Another mentor--
INTERVIEWER: Like
yeah, I want to talk--
WIDNALL: --relationship.
INTERVIEWER: --about that.
Right, but you did.
You know, you married, and
your life was beyond MIT and--
WIDNALL: Yeah,
well that's right.
I have--
INTERVIEWER: How
does that happen--
WIDNALL: --two children.
INTERVIEWER: --in this-- that's
right-- in this kind of time?
WIDNALL: Have to work very hard.
You know, I would
never, you know,
minimize the difficulty of,
basically, having it all.
I mean, I think it
takes a lot of work,
takes a lot of organization,
and it's taking
on a lot of responsibilities.
But I see more and
more people doing it.
I think the world has changed
in rather dramatic ways.
I think I see many
more dual career
couples making things happen.
It even affects us
in the Air Force.
I mean, one of the reasons I
think the Air Force is having
a pilot retention problem
is that the expectations
have changed.
It is no longer the
expectation that the guy will
go off and fly in Saudi Arabia,
and that the rest of the family
will just sit there and wait.
They're not content
to sit there and wait.
And he's not content
to do that either.
He wants to be with his family.
So I think that what I see
happening all over the country
is that there is a real change.
That there's a sharing.
There's more of an
equal partnership.
And the Air Force has got some
major challenges figuring out
how to accommodate these really
new realities, and families,
and the way people want to have
a family, want to be together,
want to share responsibilities.
That's not just an
issue for people at MIT.
It's an issue for everybody,
all over the country.
And it's a major change
in the way we think
about our responsibilities.
And so, I think
it'll get easier.
I think it'll get easier
because it's just,
you know, much more
the expectation
that people will have
fuller, richer lives,
and there'll be a
lot more sharing.
INTERVIEWER: Milly
talks about it
in other conversations
we've had,
about how this
place was not very
sensitive to the needs of women
with children, and schedule,
and how she had to--
and how, in fact, she tells some
stories in our conversations
about another woman who
came on the faculty,
or came as research
faculty, at the same time
she did, and like
your friend, just
simply couldn't make
it in trying to do what
she had to do.
How did that work for you?
How did you--
WIDNALL: I never had any--
I never had any special favors.
I mean-- I don't know
how to say this exactly.
I mean, I was always a tomboy.
I mean, you come into my
office, and you see my picture
with me and my flight suit,
and everything like that.
I only stayed away for two
weeks when I had my children.
I just was full steam ahead.
I didn't, you know,
expect any accommodation.
And I never asked for it.
Bill, of course, my husband,
Bill, was enormously helpful.
I mean, we are, you
know, probably more
like today's young people
are than our contemporaries.
Although I have to say,
you know, that I really
noticed a big change
between the class of '60
and the class of '59 at MIT.
I go to both reunions,
because my husband is in '59,
and I'm in '60.
And '60-- the class of '60--
is much more--
I don't know how to say
it-- committed to equality.
They accept women as full
and equal participants
in their lives, in their
work, in whatever they do.
Class of '59 is just
a little conservative.
I find them just a little--
because they were, you know, the
number of women in that class
was very, very different.
They weren't as mainstream,
I think, as the women
in the class '60.
And then I think from then on,
I think there was a change.
I think there was a change.
And I think I see that reflected
in the Alumni Association--
people who went to MIT
at these different times.
So I really believe there was
a watershed between '59 and '60
in what was going on at MIT.
And it wasn't just me.
I mean, we had Linda Greiner.
Linda Greiner was
editor of The Tech.
So we had many
women students who--
in very substantial
leadership positions.
So the whole climate, I
think, for women students
at MIT changed
during those times.
INTERVIEWER: Questions, folks.
Here's your chance.
WIDNALL: Mm hmm.
STUDENT: You didn't say
anything if families
are hesitant about sending
your daughters to--
away to college.
How did your family and
the families of your peers
feel about sending their
daughters away to college?
WIDNALL: Well, these
are cultural issues.
There's no question about it.
But I had a very unusual family.
First of all, I was the oldest
girl of a family of girls.
And I think if you look
back, statistically,
at families like that, you
will find that the oldest girl
is often the surrogate son.
I mean, that just happens.
So I was absolutely encouraged
in everything I did.
Also, my mother was
another real pioneer.
My mother worked.
She worked all the
time I was growing up.
She quit work to
be at home with me
when I was starting the school.
And she drove me crazy.
And I said, mother, for
heaven's sakes, go back to work.
So my mother was a social
worker during the Depression.
She managed cases of
people who were on welfare.
And then after she
went back to work,
when I sort of threw
her out of the house,
she became a juvenile
probation officer.
So she-- you know,
a very active career
and she worked with families
that were disintegrating,
kids that were in trouble,
either because their families
were disintegrating, or because
they'd become delinquent.
So she worked the whole time
that I was-- so my models--
my models were of
women who, basically,
combine career and family.
And my father was, you
know, very interesting.
He did all sorts of
interesting things.
But he was a rodeo cowboy
when he met my mother.
So just strong family,
very strong family.
Very supportive.
INTERVIEWER: A rodeo cowboy.
WIDNALL: Yes.
Yes.
INTERVIEWER: That's unusual.
WIDNALL: Yes, it is unusual.
It is unusual.
Great guy.
I miss him so much.
Passed away just before I became
secretary of the Air Force.
So he never knew.
WIDNALL: That hurts.
WIDNALL: Yeah, I love that guy.
He was just my first mentor.
Wonderful man.
Very supportive.
We built things together.
That's really why
I'm an engineer.
Daddy and I built things.
I was 21 years old
before I realized
you could hire people to come
to your house to fix things.
No, it never occurred to me.
I mean, we always--
we not only fixed
things at our house,
we fixed things in
the neighbor's house.
One of the new neighbors came
over, knocked on the door,
and said, can Roland come
over and fix my sink?
And my mother was
taken aback, says,
he doesn't do things like that.
He said, well, Mr. Braman said
that he was the guy who fixed
everything in the neighborhood.
So anyway, that's
why I'm an engineer,
probably as much as
anything, is that hands-on--
hands-on experience.
INTERVIEWER: All right,
Stephanie, you got--
Here, let me see
what's going on here.
No, that's fine, go ahead and--
you guys, don't
lose this moment.
WIDNALL: Yeah, come on.
Questions.
Don't be shy.
Women should speak up.
STUDENT: What about the
families of your peers?
WIDNALL: Aww, pffft.
Well, first of all, I
went to a girls' school.
So I think I think women
who go to girls' schools
are often more independent
than women that go to, sort of,
co-educational high schools.
I think that's
statistically true.
I think that I--
my friends were a very
independent bunch of girls.
And, you know, I
think most of them
did go to college someplace.
Most of them stayed pretty
close to Washington.
I was clearly the
outlier, but I think
people were very supportive
of their daughters.
STUDENT: When you got to MIT--
I know here, now, it's really
principally [INAUDIBLE]..
There's lots of opportunities.
But was there, when
you first came,
is there any resentment
with women students
as far as, like, [INAUDIBLE]?
WIDNALL: Well, you know,
MIT is very layered.
I mean there's the faculty,
there's your fellow students,
there's upperclassmen.
I mean, it's probably
impossible to generalize.
I think my department
was very supportive.
So if I could make it
through my freshman year
and get to my sophomore year,
I found a group of faculty
who were extremely supportive,
very anxious to have me here.
I think in my freshman
year-- well actually,
there were some faculty
members who really went out
of their way to be supportive.
I remember in particularly,
my math professor,
Professor Douglas,
whose name is one
of those hallowed
names around MIT, who
really was very supportive.
I mean, I still remember taking
a quiz in 1801 and having him--
he was this great old
grandfatherly guy.
He came up to me, says,
can I go out and get
you a Coke or something?
You know I thought
that was terrific.
You know, he just--
you know, I didn't
really need a Coke,
but I just thought that he was
just tremendously supportive.
So he was really good.
And that's a good feeling
to have about an instructor,
because, you know, they
can be a little terrifying.
But you know, when they're
approachable like that.
So yeah, I would say that there
were a few people who were,
you know, really approachable.
And incidentally, I took
1802 from Professor Matic,
who I understand is
still teaching 1802.
But no, I found the faculty
either didn't pay any attention
to me at all, or
were supportive.
And I think it was particularly
true in the aero department.
I had some really
strong supporters.
And you know, that--
So I guess that's it-- it was
either being ignored, which
was not bad for a student,
or being supported.
So that's that.
And with my classmates, they
come in all shapes and sizes.
I think I was asked a lot, you
know, what are you doing here?
I chose not to worry
about that issue.
But I used to go out a lot too.
So I mean, you know, it's one of
the advantage of being only 1%.
INTERVIEWER: Hmm.
More dates.
WIDNALL: More dates.
And my husband's
still kidding me
about all the guys
I flunked out.
Because, you know,
I could handle
the extracurricular stuff
better they could, typically.
INTERVIEWER: So this
was for you, the home
you needed to find, yeah?
WIDNALL: I think so.
I think of MIT as my home.
I mean, I've been
here more of my life
than I've been in Tacoma.
And I think I've really
made contributions
to this community.
I was chairman the faculty, I
was chairman of the admissions
committee, I was chair of
the discipline committee.
I served in a lot of important
roles on the faculty.
I certainly served as
a policymaker in issues
having to do with
women students--
the admission of women students.
So.
INTERVIEWER: There
are people who
think that you might even
someday be the first women
president of this place.
WIDNALL: I think I'm a little
too old to think about that.
INTERVIEWER: Well, maybe, but
that's for you to worry about.
Others, I still hear tossing
that around [INAUDIBLE]
occasionally.
What about the Air Force?
How did you find
that experience?
I mean, was that
just MIT writ large,
or was that a different--
WIDNALL: Oh no.
INTERVIEWER: Very different.
WIDNALL: Yeah, no I
think it was different.
Let's see, it's hard to
describe how I got there.
I mean, that was basically
another relationship,
another mentor relationship.
I had been on the board of
the Carnegie Corporation,
and David Hamburg is the
president of the Carnegie
Corporation, and he was one of
my really important mentors.
And Warren Christopher, who
became Secretary of State,
was the chairman of that
board, and Warren Chris
was doing a lot to construct
the administration.
And I was sitting in the office,
over in the provost's office
there, where I was, and
David Hamburg called me up,
and he said, Sheila.
He said, I've got an
absolutely great idea,
and I called up
Senator Nunn and Mr.
Aspin, who is about to
become Secretary of Defense,
and they think it's
a great idea too.
He said, I think you should
be Secretary of the Air Force.
And I said, David.
I said, that is
absolutely super idea.
So you know, after that it just
all kind of fell into place.
You know, in terms--
INTERVIEWER: You were taken
with the idea immediate?
WIDNALL: Oh, I'd
always wanted to be
Secretary of the Air Force.
INTERVIEWER: Ah, well.
WIDNALL: Yeah.
Yeah.
Really.
INTERVIEWER: Had
they known that?
Or was this--
WIDNALL: Well, no, I never
mentioned it to anybody.
But, you know, I had--
I mean, I had
known at least half
of the previous secretaries
of the Air Force.
They had been
aeronautical engineers.
Bob Seamans was even a
member of our department.
But I'd served on the Aerospace
Board, where Pete Aldridge was
a former Secretary.
I knew John McLucas and Joe
[INAUDIBLE] and just Don Rice.
And you know, I'd known a lot
of the previous secretaries
of the Air Force.
And they had backgrounds
that were not unlike mine.
And so-- it's actually a
job I've always wanted.
So I thought it was a terrific
job, and I really liked it.
It's a very complicated
organization, with a budget
of, you know,
roughly $60 billion.
And you know, 400,000 active
duty and another 200,000
reserve.
And you know, roughly 175,000
civilian full-time employees.
Plus, you know, the Pentagon,
which is like no place
that I've ever been.
And you know, the relationships
between the political side
and the military side,
and policymaking,
and it's just a very
complicated environment.
It's not unlike
MIT, in the sense
that, in order to
get something done,
you have to build consensus.
I think that people
from industry going
into that situation often had--
have a hard time.
Because people
from industry often
think that all you have
to do is give an order,
and something happens.
That's not the way
Washington works.
So I do think, actually,
academics do very well
in that environment.
Because there's lot
of consultation.
There's a lot of, sort
of, building consensus.
I think the intellectual
issues are very important.
And you have to be able to work
with large groups of people
and, kind of, get all the ideas,
and get it, sort of, framed,
and get it, sort of,
down to some consensus.
And so, a lot of the tools
that I learned at MIT
were extremely useful.
And I think in dealing
with the people,
I actually think my
background as an educator
was more useful than my
background as an engineer.
Because I mean, in the end
it really is about people.
And I think people who are
in education focus on people.
You focus on career development.
One of the big things
I did in the Air Force
that I'm probably the most
proud of is core values.
You know, we basically
articulated and stressed
the core values
of the Air Force,
and an institution like MIT
has got core values too.
In fact, they're almost
the same core values.
Although the core values of
the Air Force are integrity,
service above self,
and excellence.
I think the only
one that MIT doesn't
have is a service above self.
Because service
above self really
implies, perhaps,
putting your life
on the line for your country.
And unless you
join the military,
I think that that's
probably not an expectation
that you would have.
But your kind of service
goes in a different way.
It is service to country,
service to community.
It's service to the nation,
service to your family.
So I mean, there is
a service component.
It's not quite as sharply
drawn as it would be
for somebody in the military.
INTERVIEWER: What
about being a woman?
I mean, was that a--
WIDNALL: Well you know, there's
some interesting psychological
things associated with that,
which I took full advantage of.
There's a book that
I would recommend.
It's called Women Warriors.
And basically,
what it points out
is that throughout
history, there
have been a few women who have
served in roles like this.
And that for the
people involved,
it can be a time of
renewal, that there
is something inherently
exciting about a woman
leader in a military situation.
And that you can get
the kind of energy
in that situation that
is an order of magnitude
larger than the kind of
conventional setting.
And you know, Joan of Arc
is the obvious example.
But in the British
myths, there's
somebody called Rhodesia,
who also played that role.
And in our own time, we had
Golda Meir, and Indira Gandhi,
and we had Margaret Thatcher.
And so basically, what I saw is
that there was an opportunity
to energize the
organization, and that I
was about to take full advantage
of it, on their behalf,
to make them better.
So I emphasized, you
know, being a woman.
I mean, I wore, you know,
flight suits all the time.
I wore BDUs.
Because that brings this energy
forward in the organization.
And I think it worked.
I think it worked.
I think we had a very, very high
powered, intense organization
that was totally focused on
the mission, that was totally
focused on the core values.
I think we just absolutely
improved the organization.
And I was very
conscious of that.
I mean, I was conscious
of that opportunity
and those possibilities.
And I think for
the most part, we
were able to accomplish that.
So I think that there's some
real advantages to doing that.
INTERVIEWER: Anything you
would have done differently,
looking back on that?
WIDNALL: Oh.
INTERVIEWER: Stay longer?
WIDNALL: No.
No, no.
Nuh uh.
INTERVIEWER: You were
read to come back?
WIDNALL: No, no.
I mean, I think they
say in Washington
that if you're not going
to stay for eight years,
you should only stay for four.
I think there is an
expectation that when
you get to the
second four-year term
that the people who
have positions like mine
will basically retire so that
the president can kind of put
in a whole new team.
And I think for me, it was fine.
And I think MIT
was extraordinarily
generous to give me four
years leave of absence.
There were people down there
from Harvard and Kennedy
School, who basically had to
resign their positions in order
field stay for four years.
And I think most of them
successfully went back,
but there are a lot of
examples of universities
not taking people back after.
INTERVIEWER: Yeah, with Reich.
I mean--
WIDNALL: Well,
there's Reich and--
what's that guy's name
during the Vietnam War?
Rostow.
Rostow.
Walt Rostow did not get back
to Harvard after four years.
So I think MIT was
extraordinarily generous.
So I think four years was
the right amount of time.
INTERVIEWER: [INAUDIBLE]
STUDENT: Does it--
this may sound weird,
but does it ever get
you, to be thought
of as like a woman in
this, a woman in that.
And ever do you say, like, well,
why can't I just be, you known,
an engineer?
Why can't I--
WIDNALL: No.
No.
It really doesn't, because I
always see it as a net plus.
I always see it as a net plus.
I really believe that,
because I am a woman,
that I have,
typically, been pointed
to things at a younger age
than might have otherwise
been the case.
You know, I've been
able to, in others--
I've, you know, I have a lot
more visibility in my field
because I'm a woman.
Now obviously,
the visibility has
to be backed up with competence.
But I think visibility
is a good thing to have.
So no, I've-- it's never
been an issue for me.
I've you know, I--
am who I am, and, you
know, I get asked to do things.
And I accept some, and
don't accept others.
And I just try to
do the best job.
So no, that's never
been an issue.
But we just may come
from a different time.
Different time.
But I've never been
self-conscious about it.
INTERVIEWER: What
do you think, Drew?
STUDENT: You mean, what
questions do I have?
When you went down to Air Force,
and you came back to Cambridge,
was there a period of
readjustment for you?
WIDNALL: Oh, absolutely.
Yeah.
In fact, I'm still readjusting.
The Air Force is
tremendously well-organized,
and I had a staff of,
roughly, 12 to 15 people,
whose entire job it
was to see that I
got to where I needed to go
with what I needed to have.
And so, I had tremendous
staff support.
And they were wonderful people.
I mean, I thought of them
as graduate students,
because they were so smart.
And they were so productive.
And they were always writing
papers, and writing speeches,
and doing very,
very useful things.
I miss them all terribly.
I mean, I just--
as I said, they really were
more like my graduate students.
So coming back, you know,
I'm setting my own schedule.
I'm involved with
other organizations
that are not as well-organized
as the Air Force.
I'm vice president of National
Academy of Engineering.
I'm on the governing board of
the National Research Council
and on several
organizations down there.
And I sent an email down there
the other day, and I said,
you know I'm really
having a hard time
linking in to my
responsibilities
in your organization.
I said, you never give me the
agenda until about two weeks
before the meeting.
I said, I never know
what's going on.
I said, you never--
I said, you got to let
me know six weeks--
six months in advance when
you're having meetings.
I said, because my
calendar fills up.
You know, I just can't--
It's very hard for me to deal
with an organization that
is not as well-organized
as the Air Force.
You now, in the Air
Force, you know,
I always knew exactly
what I was doing,
where I was going,
why I was doing it.
And we all had
everything all lined up.
And now, I'm just kind of
floating around, trying
to fulfill my responsibilities
to a lot of organizations
that are not terribly
well-organized.
And that's difficult.
That's difficult for me.
STUDENT: What are the intensity
levels compared to MIT?
WIDNALL: Pardon?
STUDENT: The intensity level--
compared--
WIDNALL: Oh, so I think
it's much, much higher.
Because basically,
it's the difference
between one person
trying to work
her way through a
complex organization,
and being at the pointy end
of a sphere that's like,
you know, a couple
thousand people,
all pushing in the
same direction.
So you know, I had
four people, whose job
it was just to make sure that
I use my time efficiently.
And I hardly know the
things that didn't happen,
because these guys took
care of those issues.
So I was just--
you know, my time was used
a lot more effectively,
so that every day was, you know,
had the kind of intensity that
goes along with using
your time efficiently.
STUDENT: Do you feel more
relaxed since you came back
to MIT, or--
WIDNALL: No, I thought
it was more chaotic.
It was more chaotic.
I was perfectly relaxed.
I mean, I can give
you a little example.
When I was in the Air Force,
I bicycled 3,000 miles a year.
