FEDERAL JUDGE TO LET A GUILTY
MAN GO FREE BECAUSE THE
PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES
WANTS THAT GUILTY MAN ABWILLIAM
BARR -- GUILTY MAN, AN ALLY TO
GO FREE.
>> LET’S BRING IN MICHAEL
SCHMIDT, AUTHOR OF THE NEW BOOK
"DONALD TRUMP VERSUS THE UNITED
STATES
STATES," INSIDE THE STRUGGLE TO
STOP A PRESIDENT.
GREAT TO HAVE YOU ON THE SHOW,
MICHAEL.
YOU HAVE A COUPLE REVELATIONS
THAT HAVE COME OUT RECENTLY,
WHAT DO YOU THINK THE KEY
REVELATIONS ARE AND WHAT DID YOU
LEARN ABOUT THE PRESIDENT THAT
YOU DIDN’T KNOW BEFORE?
>> WELL, WHAT I TRIED TO DO IN
THIS BOOK WAS TELL THE STORY OF
WHAT IT’S LIKE TO BE ONE OF THE
PEOPLE SORT OF STANDING BETWEEN
THE PRESIDENT AND THE ABYSS.
FOR ALL OF -- OR MUCH OF
AMERICAN HISTORY WE’VE FOCUSED
ON HOW PRESIDENTS USE THEIR
POWER, HOW THE PEOPLE AROUND
THEM HELP THE PRESIDENT DO THAT.
WHAT THAT MEANS ABOUT THE
PRESIDENT.
WHAT THAT MEANS ABOUT THE
MOMENT.
WHAT IT SAYS ABOUT THE COUNTRY.
AND WITH TRUMP WE’VE JUST SEEN
AN INCREDIBLY UNUSUAL
PHENOMENON, AND THAT IS THAT THE
PEOPLE AROUND THE PRESIDENT ARE
TRYING TO CONTAIN THE PRESIDENT.
SO WHAT IS IT LIKE TO BE ONE OF
THOSE CONTAINERS?
WHAT IS IT LIKE TO STAND UP TO
THE PRESIDENT?
IF YOU’RE THE FBI DIRECTOR OR
THE WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL, THERE’S
NO OTHER FBI DIRECTOR OR WHITE
HOUSE COUNSEL TO CALL, YOU’RE
THE 911 OPERATOR.
THERE’S NO OTHER 911 OPERATE ERO
CALL.
SO WHAT DO YOU DO?
WHAT IS THAT LIKE?
WHAT IS THAT HUMAN EXPERIENCE
LIKE?
WHAT DOES IT FEEL LIKE TO BE ONE
OF THOSE PEOPLE?
AND YOU CAN READ THE BOOK AND
SEE, WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE?
WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE IF THE
PRESIDENT SAID GO FIRE ROBERT
MUELLER, AND YOU WERE THE WHITE
HOUSE COUNSEL, HOW WOULD YOU
HAVE HANDLED THAT?
>> MICHAEL, WHY DON’T YOU TELL
US.
YOU HAD THAT HAPPENING TO DON
McGHAN, COREY LEWANDOWSKI, IT
HAPPENED TO A LOT OF PEOPLE.
I’M SURE HE WALKED UP TO, YOU
KNOW, SECRET SERVICE PEOPLE AT
SOME POINT AND ASKED THEM TO
FIRE -- I MEAN, HE WAS ASKING
EVERYBODY TO DO THAT FIRING AND
DO OTHER THINGS THAT HE DIDN’T
WANT TO DO.
HOW DID THEY RESPOND
DIFFERENTLY?
>> WELL, THAT’S THE THING ABOUT
DONALD TRUMP IS THAT HE’S SORT
OF THIS HUMAN MRI MACHINE
INTO -- THAT GETS YOU A CHANCE
TO SEE INTO THE SOULS OF THESE
DIFFERENT PEOPLE AND HOW THEY
WILL RESPONSE.
AND WHAT IS IT THAT MEANS TO
THEM?
IN THE CASE OF JIM COMEY.
JIM COMEY WAS NEVER GOING TO
BEND TO THE PRESIDENT.
HE WAS NEVER GOING TO GIVE IN.
YOU MENTIONED THE LOYALTY
DINNER, ASKING HIM TO STOP THE
MICHAEL FLYNN INVESTIGATION,
THOSE WERE NEVER GOING TO WORK
WITH JIM COMEY.
WITH DON McGHAN HE WAS THE WHITE
HOUSE COUNSEL BUT HE NEVER AGAIN
HAS A CHANCE TO REMAKE THE
FEDERAL COURTS.
HE’S IN THE WHITE HOUSE AND
BELIEVES IN THAT CAUSE AND HIS
ABILITY TO FOLLOW THROUGH ON
THAT, PROBABLY MORE SO THAN THE
PRESIDENT DOES.
SO HE HAS TO, AND LEHE DECIDES T
SORT OF BALANCE TRYING TO DEAL
WITH TRUMP TO STAY IN HIS
POSITION BECAUSE HE WANTS TO BE
THERE TO DO THAT.
AS I WRITE IN THE BOOK, IN THE
SPRING OF 2018, McGAHN WAS UNDER
AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF PRESSURE.
HIS LAWYER, BILL BURK, WANTED
McGAHN TO LEAVE.
HE KNEW THE MUELLER REPORT WOULD
BE COMING OUT SOON AND THEY
WANTED TO SEE THE THINGS THAT
McGAHN TOLD INVESTORS.
BUT McGAHN THINKS HE CAN HEAR IN
KENNEDY’S VOICE FROM ARGUMENTS
IN THE COURT THAT KENNEDY MAY
STEP DOWN, MAY RETIRE.
AND McGAHN BELIEVES THAT EVEN
THOUGH HE PROBABLY CAN’T EVEN
STOP TRUMP THAT WELL ANYMORE, HE
WANTS TO STAY.
BECAUSE IF HE DOESN’T STAY HE
DOESN’T THINK THAT KENNEDY WILL
RETIRE BECAUSE HE DOESN’T TRUST
THAT -- BECAUSE KENNEDY WOULDN’T
TRUST THAT TRUMP WOULDN’T PUT A
WRECKING BALL ON THE COURT.
SO DON McGHAN SAYS IF I CAN STAY
IN THE WHITE HOUSE THROUGH THE
END OF THE TERM IN JUNE, MAYBE
I’LL GET A SHOT AT ANOTHER
PERSON ON THE COURT.
AND HE STAYS THROUGH THAT AND
KENNEDY GOES AHEAD AND RETIRES
AND McGAHN HAS A SHOT AND
HELPS -- BASICALLY MOVES FORWARD
WITH THE KAVANAUGH NOMINATION
AND HAS SORT OF THE ULTIMATE
STAND IN THAT AND COMES OUT WITH
THAT.
AND IT’S SORT OF THIS REMARKABLE
STORY OF HOW DO YOU NAVIGATE A
PRESIDENT WHEN THE PRESIDENT MAY
BE THE PROBLEM.
IT’S JUST -- YOU JUST DON’T SEE
THAT A LOT.
>> KASIE HUNT IS WITH US AND HAS
A QUESTION.
KASIE?
>> MICHAEL, CONGRATULATIONS ON
THE BOOK.
I WON THE LOYALTY QUESTION, I
WILL SAY.
I THINK IT WAS JOHN KELLY WHO
USED THE PHRASE SAYING NO TO
PRESIDENT TRUMP IS LIKE FRENCH
KISSING A CHAIN SAW, WHICH I
THOUGHT WAS PARTICULARLY
EVOCATIVE AND AWFUL.
CAN YOU EXPLAIN HOW BILL BARR
FITS INTO THIS NARRATIVE YOU ARE
TALKING ABOUT.
JOE CALLED HIM TRUMP’S ROY COHN.
I TALKED TO REPUBLICANS WHO WERE
SURPRISED -- HE CAST HIMSELF AS
THIS GEORGE H.W. BUSH LONG-TIME
REPUBLICAN STANDING IN DEFENSE
OF THESE NORMS AND THEY’VE SEEN
HOW HE CONDUCTED HIMSELF AS
ATTORNEY GENERAL AND SAID,
THAT’S NOT NECESSARILY WHAT WE
SIGNED UP FOR THIS.
HOW DOES HE FIT IN WITH THE
PARADIGM THAT YOU’RE TALKING
ABOUT?
>> THE THING ABOUT BARR IS THAT
TRUMP’S BEHAVIOR MAKES THE
PERCEPTION OF BARR EVEN WORSE.
BECAUSE HERE’S THE THING.
AS WE’RE TALKING ABOUT WITH JOHN
KELLY, I WRITE IN THE BOOK ABOUT
HOW TRUMP CALLED KELLY THE DAY
AFTER HE FIRED COMEY AND HE SAID
I WANT YOU TO BE THE FBI
DIRECTOR AND I NEED YOU TO BE
LOYAL TO ME AND ME ALONE.
KELLY SAYS GET LOST I’M GOING TO
BE LOYAL TO THE CONSTITUTION.
I’M NOT YOUR GUY FOR THAT.
IN THE CASE OF TRUMP WE KNOW HE
ASKED COMEY FOR HIS LOYALTY AND
THEN HE ASKED KELLY FOR HIS
LOYALTY AS HE WAS TRYING TO FILL
THAT POSITION.
SO THEN THAT RAISES THE
QUESTION, HOW DID CHRIS WRAY
BECOME THE FBI DIRECTOR?
WE KNOW HE ASKED THE -- YOU KNOW
THAT HE ASKED COMEY FOR LOYALTY
AND WE KNOW THAT HE ASKED KELLY
FOR LOYALTY RIGHT AFLTER HE LEFT
SO IT CREATES THIS QUESTION, IF
YOU GET INTO ONE OF THESE
POSITIONS, HOW DID YOU GET
THERE?
THE PRESIDENT FIRED JEFF
SESSIONS AND OPENLY SAID THAT HE
FIRED SESSIONS BECAUSE SESSIONS
HAD RECUSED HIMSELF FROM THE
RUSSIA INVESTIGATION, ONE OF THE
MOST DISLOYAL THINGS THAT ANYONE
HAS EVER DONE TO TRUMP.
HE’S BEEN VERY, VERY PUBLIC
ABOUT THAT.
SO IF THAT IS HOW TRUMP VIEWED
THESE PEOPLE AND HE GOT RID OF
THEM AND DIDN’T PUT THEM IN
POSITIONS BECAUSE THEY WOULDN’T
BE LOYAL TO HIM, THEN HOW DO YOU
GET THAT POSITION?
HOW DID YOU GET THERE?
LOOK, WE HAVE NO EVIDENCE THAT
HE ASKED CHRIS WRAY FOR HIS
LOYALTY TO BECOME THE FBI
DIRECTOR.
WE HAVE NO EVIDENCE HE DID THAT
WITH BARR, BUT WE HAVE A LOT OF
EVIDENCE ABOUT HOW HE DEALT WITH
THE PEOPLE BEFORE THEM AND THE
