[MUSIC PLAYING]
VICTOR SCOTTI: And so
we're really just going
to jump right into this.
And so I have questions
for each of you.
We're also going to have
time for audience questions.
So at that time, if you guys
could line up at the mics,
and then we'll go back and
forth until time runs out.
So if that's OK, the first
question is for Matt.
So just ground us in this story.
Like, how did you become
interested in the project,
and how did you decide
to tell this story?
MATT WOLF: Well, StoryCorps,
the oral history project
that you may have
heard of, they have
recording booths
around the country,
and people do long-form
conversations that
are archived at the
Library of Congress
and that are also used to
create radio pieces on NPR.
So they had approached
me because they
had a queer history initiative.
And they asked if I could help
them find interesting stories.
And I had heard of the phenomena
of intergenerational gay
adoption in a
pre-marriage era and was
interested in finding
stories related to it.
And so at the
time, I was working
with a producer who is
Walter's niece, Erica Naegle,
and she had to call
Steven Spielberg.
So on the phone that
evening, she said,
I had to cold call
Steven Spielberg.
And I said, I had to cold
call the owner of a clothing
optional bed and
breakfast who was adopted
by his older lover in the '80s.
And she said, oh, my uncle
was adopted by his lover,
and his name was Walter.
So I went home and I googled
Walter Naegle, her last name.
And she failed to mention
that Walter's partner had been
Bayard Rustin, who I was a
huge fan of, although I feel
that a lot of people don't
know who he is despite a very
acclaimed documentary
called "Brother Outsider"
that came out in
2000, I believe.
And that's how I
had heard of Bayard.
So that's how the whole
project got started.
VICTOR SCOTTI:
Thank you for that.
And Walter, I feel like we all
have so many questions for you,
but if I could just
ground us in one.
So you were 27,
and Bayard was 65.
And so intergenerational,
interracial-- just
tell us about that
experience and braving
those intersections.
And what were some
of the challenges?
And what were some of
the beautiful moments?
WALTER NAEGLE: Well, when
I look back on it now
and I hear you ask that kind
of a question, it seems like,
gee, how did we do this?
But it was all very, very
perfectly natural for us
at the time.
As I said in the
film, I was an old 27,
and Bayard was a
very youthful 65.
And we really shared
common values,
common ideas, common interests.
And at the time, I was
attracted to older guys.
That can't be the
case too much anymore
because there are not that
many that are older than me.
So I've moved in
the other direction.
[LAUGHTER]
But yeah, we really
just had a camaraderie,
just very comfortable.
It was very easy
very, very quickly,
I think within two months--
I was still on this
San Francisco idea.
But about two
months after we met,
we just agreed
that we were going
to stay together for awhile.
We were interracial.
We were intergenerational.
We were same sex.
It was like, what else
could there possibly
be that could be thrown up in
our faces or held against us?
But we just moved forward.
And people that loved us and
people that cared for us--
our friends, our family--
they were all cool with it.
It was very comfortable.
VICTOR SCOTTI: And
then Shawn, as someone
who has studied academically
race and ethnic studies
and also someone who
is younger and also
African-American,
how did you first
learn about Bayard Rustin?
And what were your
thoughts before the film?
And then how has
the film informed
how you think about him and
how you think about his legacy?
SHAWN DYE: So I'm going to try
to get through each question
here.
But I arrived at Bayard
Rustin when I was in college.
I considered myself a very
good student of history
prior to college.
But I noticed in
our history books,
Bayard Rustin was
purposely left out.
And given what we
know about US history
and how it's taught
to K through 12,
we know that black
history in general
generally has a very
small portion located
in those history books.
So it would make
sense why Bayard
would be left out as
a marginalized person,
being queer.
But having arrived
at him in college
as I was coming into
my own sexual identity
as a black gay man, I took
hold to Bayard in a way
that a lot of my peers did not.
I really wanted to research
him and study him and learn
a little bit more about his
life just so that I could
see how things have changed
since he lived his life,
came into his own sexuality,
lived within the movement
as well, and see how that
can put some kind of focus
on what I'm doing,
where I locate myself
within the black queer community
today in the 21st century.
So watching the documentary
was very eye-opening for me.
I had previously known
that Bayard Rustin had
been in a long-term partnership
with someone who was white,
having had been a very
distinguished person
within the civil
rights movement.
So I took very serious
interest in this
because I considered
it a very hot button
issue for a lot of people.
People would consider
that to be taboo, as you
mentioned in the documentary.
So seeing that the documentary
really put into perspective how
his Quaker upbringing
really helped
him come to terms with
some of the decisions
he's made, especially when
it came to his personal life
as well.
So just seeing how
those things overlapped,
how his personal politics
channeled into his love life
as well, I think it was cool
to see those layers there.
VICTOR SCOTTI: Yeah.
Thank you.
And I love how there are
three distinct different views
and perspectives on Bayard.
And that's what we're
really looking to show here.
And this is a question
for all of you.
And so Matt, I was
reading an article
that you were quoted
in, and you talked
about Bayard's
creative resistance.
So if you can talk about that.
And then the question
for all of us
is, what type of
creative resistance
do you think is needed now?
We're in very, very interesting
times on multiple levels.
So just using this idea
of creative resistance,
what do you think we can
extract from that for today?
MATT WOLF: Something
I was thinking
about while making the film is
this continuum of things that
seemed radical at one
time and that become more
mainstream or accepted later.
So intergenerational adoption,
I'm sure, to most people
seemed like a radical step
to obtain equal rights.
But now gay marriage is
part of the mainstream.
So I think that's
a helpful framework
to look at creative
resistance now in terms
of conceptualizing things that
break rules or re-imagine what
rules could be with the
knowledge through history
that that rule-breaking
sometimes becomes
absorbed into the culture
as something mainstream.
WALTER NAEGLE:
Bayard's resistance
was based on nonviolence and
on his Quaker upbringing.
And the whole idea
about nonviolence--
it's really based on love.
And so you go into
the creative phase
of resisting with the idea of
eventually building community.
The community is
fractured, and you're
trying to heal it in some way.
And so that means
that you're not
going to be screaming
in somebody's face
or calling him a pig or
calling him a racist comment
or something like that.
You're going to try and bridge
the gap that already exists.
And so that was
really the framework
that Bayard had to operate in.
And so he had to come up with
really creative demonstrations,
creative marches,
ideas that were really
uniting people as opposed
to just broadening the gap.
And I think there
exists such a gap now,
there seems to, in this
society that we have,
that we need those kinds
of creative thinkers
and creative resisters
more than ever.
SHAWN DYE: When I think
about creative resistance,
I always come back
to what we're doing
within our own communities
to resist the forces that
might tear us in the
intracommunity away
from each other.
When I think about
intersectionality,
about being black and
queer specifically,
and given the challenges that
we're up against socially
and given the current
political environment
that we find
ourselves in, I think
it's more important
than ever that we
have serious conversations in
our community about what we're
doing to marginalize
others who look
like us, who come from the
same backgrounds as us.
I think it starts at
home for a lot of us
in terms of having those
serious conversations
before we talk about
extending the hand over
to other communities.
Not saying that they
should happen separate
from each other or
one should happen
before the other, but saying
that we should be resisting,
creatively and strategically,
different ideas that
would pull us apart
from one another,
specifically within
the black community
or specifically within
the queer community.
And a lot of people actually
find the queer community
to be very isolationist
in and of itself,
very white and very
male in and of itself,
where we obviously
know that's not true.
So we have a lot
to do internally
as well in terms of rectifying
things that have been done
in the past that have been wrong
and have marginalized people
within our communities.
So basically resisting
those internal forces
that can disrupt it.
VICTOR SCOTTI: Thank you.
As I reflect on Bayard and this
film, I'm struck by the fact
that it just took me so
long to learn about him.
I think that I was in college
when I found out about him.
And identifying as a
black, queer man myself,
it was just so
comforting to know
that his presence was there.
His legacy is all throughout
the civil rights movement
and still lives on today.
But he is still largely
unknown in a lot of spaces.
So before we go to
audience questions, Walter,
I would love for you
to tell us, what's
the one thing that we
wouldn't know about Bayard
and that we wouldn't get
from the documentary?
WALTER NAEGLE: Oh,
that's interesting,
because I think this documentary
complements "Brother Outsider"
a great deal, because
in "Brother Outsider,"
you see Bayard
debating Malcolm X. You
see Bayard at podiums talking
and pointing his finger
and very militant.
And I think this one shows
a softer side of him.
I think probably the fact
that he was so human.
He was so gentle.
He was very approachable.
Even though he had
achieved a certain,
I guess you could say, rank or
position in the civil rights
movement, that really didn't
happen until after the March
on Washington in 1963.
And so up to then, he had
lived as an itinerant freelance
troublemaker, if you will,
making this subsistence living.
So he wasn't really very
full of himself, I guess.
He didn't go around with
bodyguards or limousines
or anything like
that kind of thing.
So I think just the fact that
he was really so human and warm
and really always willing to
reach out to people, especially
young people.
Bayard was one of the leaders
who was an inspiration.
And because of his
radical politics,
especially in his younger
years, young people
gravitated to him
because younger people
tend to be more radical.
So when Stokely
Carmichael was coming up,
people like that,
they really went
to Bayard as opposed to going
to Roy Wilkins or Whitney Young.
They went to Bayard, and
they went to Ella Baker.
That might be a name that
is familiar to some of you.
Because they were the
voices within the leadership
of the movement that were
edgy and progressive.
So yeah, I think just his
spirit of youthfulness
and his spirit of
creativity is something
that is very important to his
legacy, to his life, and again,
something that we need now.
We need creative young
people out there,
not relying on all
the old methods
to make change but to forge
ahead and use the tools that we
have now.
VICTOR SCOTTI: Absolutely.
Thank you.
Do we have any
audience questions?
AUDIENCE: I would love to
know or have you speculate
as to what Bayard would
be thinking and doing
today in terms of the
political landscape,
in terms of where we
are with gay rights,
with things that are happening
within the black community.
Where would he be
positioned right now?
WALTER NAEGLE: Well, I
think he would certainly
be pleased with the
progress that's been
made over the last 50 years.
He would have been disheartened
by the 2016 election
and maybe depressed
for a day or two,
but would have gotten
up two days later
and gotten right back in the
fight, starting resisting.
Bayard and A. Philip
Randolph, they
dealt largely with the issues
of racial discrimination
and segregation and Jim Crow
from the '40s to the '60s.
But then once some of
those laws were passed
and there was civil rights
legislation, the Voting Rights
Act, they really understood
that the larger issue
was poverty and economics.
And that's something
that is still with us,
and the income
inequality has broadened
over these last years.
And so the work that he was
doing in the mid '60s, the work
that Dr. King was
doing at the time
that he died, the Poor
People's Campaign,
I think those would
really be issues
that he would be focusing on.
And I think a little less
so on identity politics,
but more on bringing
people together
on the issue of
economic justice.
SHAWN DYE: Something
that I think about often
is if Bayard was
alive today, would he
have been involved in any
of the political fights
that black queer
people are facing
in this country at this time?
As I've done research
about Bayard,
I've found very little of
him engaging with black queer
people of his generation.
And that's been
something that has always
been a gray area for me.
I'm just like, hey, I'm sure
he's probably done work,
and he probably knows tons of
people within the black queer
community.
But similarly to
Baldwin, I often
question what their
ties were like
and if they would
be the champions
for black queer political
issues that we're facing today.
That's something I think
about all the time.
It's just something that I
wish I had more context on.
So thank you for
asking that question.
It's something I
think about, too.
AUDIENCE: Hey, you
all, my name is Rahim.
So my question is,
so how do you think
having an interracial
relationship is different
back then than it is today?
And going off a little
bit more of that,
would that be
considered empowerment
within the black community?
Or is that
discouraged or frowned
upon to date outside your race
and going against the cause
of black empowerment?
SHAWN DYE: This is often
something I think about as
well.
Given the documentary and
seeing where Bayard Rustin comes
from as far as his
Quaker upbringing,
I think that gives
us a lot of context
into how he went about
engaging in relationships,
which is very different.
And then also
considering the fact
that he was [INAUDIBLE]
under Martin Luther King
instead of, say, Malcolm X
or someone who's more left,
I think that often can
provide some insight
into how he thought about
interracial relationships.
But I didn't live
there, obviously.
I didn't live back then.
So I don't have as
much context there.
But I would imagine that
there were a lot of questions
that people had to
his relationships.
And I think, in a lot of ways,
we can draw parallels to today.
I think interracial
relationships
are obviously less taboo
than they were 50 years ago.
That being said, there are a
number of conversations that we
have, honest conversations
that we have,
especially when it comes
to black leadership,
black people who are visibly
out there who are representing
communities, about the
relationships that they enter
and how, oftentimes,
they can portray
something that might
be different than what
their work consists of.
That's something that
I interrogate often.
I don't really have
an answer to it.
I just think the
more things change,
it's like the more
things stay the same,
I guess, in a situation.
But yeah, it's a
very tricky issue.
WALTER NAEGLE: I'd like
to add a few things.
I think you really have to
look at the whole context
in which we were living.
First of all, there
have always been
people who have been against
interracial relationships.
There always were, and there
still are, and there probably
always will be.
There wasn't a gay movement.
During the time that I
met Bayard, there was.
But in the time that
he was maturing,
there was not really much of
a gay movement to speak of.
There were a few organizations.
But they weren't very high
profile, high visibility.
And certainly, I don't know.
I don't know how many
out, black, gay men
you could name from
his generation.
Maybe you could name
more than I could.
People always refer
to James Baldwin.
And Bayard had a relationship
with James Baldwin,
a friendly relationship,
and they occasionally
appeared on panels together
and worked together
and that kind of thing.
But Bayard was different
because he was out there.
He was more authentic.
He didn't lie about who he was.
It was a generation
of gay men, regardless
of color, who remained in
the closet, who married--
marriages of convenience,
if you will--
so that they could advance
their careers, had families.
Bayard didn't do
that kind of thing.
So the number of
people who were really
living their authentic selves--
and Baldwin was one also--
were very few.
So in terms of the
pool of applicants,
I guess you could say, for
Bayard having relationships
with people was not that great.
If you think about the
percentage of gay men
in the world, the percentage
of black gay men in the world,
the percentage of black
gay men in the world
who had an education, who were
interested in nonviolence,
who were political--
it keeps getting smaller
and smaller and smaller.
Bayard did have relationships
with black gay men--
sexual relationships.
But in terms of
long-term partners,
that's really about values.
The pool of applicants, if you
will, was just not that great.
AUDIENCE: We've had
a few conversations
internally about mostly white
folk working on narratives
around folks of color and the
inherent problematic areas
that we can get into you by
representing other people's
stories that involve
experiences that we will never
be able to experience
as white folks.
So I'm curious-- a
question for Matt
is, did you encounter
any challenges--
since you were telling
Walter's story, certainly,
but this was also a
story about Bayard.
I'm curious whether
you encountered
any challenges trying
to sort of create
an artistic narrative of a
man of color knowing that that
was not your experience?
Recognizing also that
directors do create stories
about people that are
not exactly like them,
but I could imagine this
being a particular challenge.
So I'd be interested in hearing
how you approached that.
MATT WOLF: Yeah, I
think about that a lot.
And I do make films mostly
not from my point of view,
but from the point of
view of characters,
for lack of a better word.
And while thinking of this,
I do ask myself the question,
this is a great story.
Am I the person to tell it?
Or is my job to
get out of the way
and let other people
tell a certain story?
And in a sense, even
though I made this film,
because I chose
to do it entirely
from Walter's
point of view, he's
telling this story, which is
a story of the civil rights
movement but through a very
particular personal lens.
And Walter's been such
an amazing ambassador
for Bayard's legacy.
And that's part of
the reason I didn't
feel like the film needed
additional points of view
to historicize Bayard.
So I think there's
been recent films,
like a film about
Martha P. Johnson, where
these issues have really come
to the fore about authorship,
and I guess, as white people,
getting out of the way
sometimes instead of
talking, and listening more.
So it's sometimes a limitation
to my ability as a filmmaker,
and I think about that.
AUDIENCE: Bayard Rustin was
totally inspirational for me
in college as well.
The movie "Brother
Outsider" and his early life
as a communist and his
debate with Malcolm X--
I was really interested
in his early politics.
So I guess, when
you met him, did
you know who he was before
he introduced himself to you?
Like, you're like, oh,
he's this big shot.
What was that like, just
as a personal experience?
WALTER NAEGLE: At the moment
that I met him, I wasn't sure.
I had known who
Bayard Rustin was.
But Bayard was
noted for carrying
a walking stick, a cane.
Well, it's only a
cane if you need it.
He didn't need it.
It was a walking stick,
a style accessory.
So he didn't have it
with him that afternoon.
So I wasn't sure.
But he introduced himself.
But because I was interested in
the movement in my high school
years, and Bayard was showing
up in the press quite a lot,
I knew who he was.
I knew who he was.
VICTOR SCOTTI: Well,
thank you so much,
Matt, Walter, and Shawn.
It's really been a treat for
us to bring this screening
to Google and the
partnership with the It Gets
Better project.
Thank you for that.
And also, I just
want to thank you
guys for humanizing
Bayard for us
and bringing home this
notion of love and respect
and creativity.
I think that that
transcends time and space.
So thank you all so much.
And thank you all for coming.
[APPLAUSE]
