er, Mitch who's been waiting on hold for quite a long time from my original hometown of Kansas City.
How you doing Mitch?
Good. Thanks for taking my call
nice to talk with you guys.
Hi, Jen. Hi, Matt.
⬅Hi. ⮕Thanks for waiting. What you got for us?
well, um.
I grew up in the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day saints, um, been a member, of course forever
I
Quote-unquote struggled as a teen then I had an experience where I decided
It was true, and I needed to serve a mission
so I did I served, you know full-time mission and
then came home got married in the temple and
There was some experiences that just kind of
that I had, you know, after returning that I guess
kind of pulled some doubt strings, which of course you guys know and most churches
that's kind of a taboo. You don't touch on those topics and
some of those things kind of started to unravel, but
the one thing that just really holds on to me is you know, the the
you know
praying to find truth and
also
you know, the Holy Ghost is a guide and it's there
it's it's there to teach us all truth and it enlightens us and it brings us to
you know, whatever God's truth is
it leads us down that path and
So these are the things that are keeping you in belief?
Well, yes, yes.
So, how do you test that?
How do you test that to make sure that when you pray you are actually being given truth from some external source?
Well, that's one thing that I've been trying to figure out.
The only way they know to test it is to do it
Yeah, but Mitch, don't you think you got to figure out how to test it before you accept that it's the case?
Yeah, and that's that's I mean 'cause, okay, growing up in the church the way that you test it is
You know search ponder and pray and that's really important, right?
So the searching of you know the Scriptures and you know
You got to read the scriptures then you ask God. That's the way that you experiment with it.
That's the way that you find out if it's true.
And if the Holy Ghost will tell you that it's true
then
you have a witness to yourself to your soul.
How do you know that the Holy Ghost is true?
How do you know if the Holy Ghost tells you that it's true?
Well, that is always been one thing that has been very hard since I've become a lot more
skeptical for me to actually nail down
and,
you know,
it, it... every time I go to church, I mean, I remember, okay, it's always a peaceful feeling, right?
I mean, that's one thing that they describe it as
And I know that feeling because I've had it before I go to church I would go to church sometimes and I would have that
[MATT:Me too] peaceful feeling and it was like, a yes, like a,
peaceful feeling, a feeling of comfort and a feeling of assurance.
[So] that's where, yeah.
Let me ask you this 'cause this might help. It might just make a mess.
So you and I have both had that experience?
huh
and
you're a Mormon?
Uh-huh.
and I'm a Southern Baptist, or I was a Southern Baptist when I would have that feeling in church.
Right
and each of us would look at the others religion and say that it's wrong?
Uh-huh. hmm, okay, yes. Okay, keep going. I don't want to interrupt you in the middle of your thought so.
No, I mean you might not have been as keen that Southern Baptist
doctrine is wrong as I was keen that Mormonism was wrong and invented by a fraud.
I would
I would, I would
I would, I would, I would
I would agree with that 'cause, I mean, you know
I mean my whole life I'm taught that every Church has truth to it
It's just [yeah] where the complete, where the full truth, where were the one church in?
I'm not as strong as I was on that claim by itself, you know
The one truth and only church and well, yeah, everybody finds out. Yes, I mean and I've struggled with that too
So the idea that every...
I'm sorry, ...the idea that every Church has truth to it is kind of irrelevant.
It's kind of like saying you can find something truthful in every book that's on
the shelves in our library here.
Doesn't tell you whether or not the foundational beliefs are true or whether the entire belief... you there's no way for me to tell
which religion has, if any religion has, a complete truth the fact that you can find something true is pretty trivial.
but if you have multiple people in different religions
who all think that they're getting messages from the Holy Spirit or God and and they have nothing more than just vague feelings
I felt a sense of peace.
I felt a sense of euphoria.
I felt ecstatic or
I felt that I was being led
Why
First of all, I don't think that makes sense because if there's a God who wants to lead you to truth. It should be something
obvious and demonstrable not just oh I had a feeling but if people in different religions, including religions that have
contradictory teachings are all getting these feelings.
Isn't it more likely that these are just feelings that people get when they do things like religion that have nothing to do with a
Supernatural realm or guidance from somewhere else?
I can see where you're... what you're saying with that and it does make a lot of sense
but the argument that on the theists side is
Well, if, since the Holy Ghost is the bearer of truth and all religions do you have some part of that truth?
And yeah, you have the trivial things which we disagree upon
Wouldn't the Holy Ghost be then
bearing witness of the truth that is [So, why would] true between the religions? [Why wouldn't the holy ghost] I mean, does that make sense?
Why wouldn't the holy ghost go to the Southern Baptists and tell them they're doing it wrong and they need to be Mormons?
Well that goes into the freewill argument, you know, [No, no no. No, no no.] [No]
No, you just said it's there to reveal the truth
and if the truth is that the LDS Church is the one that got it right then every time the Holy Spirit
convinces a Southern Baptist that they've got it right
Then that, Isn't that spirit lying to them?
Well, it would be more of me, okay, and the the... I agree with you on that and and it's still
Right, if so, if the Holy Ghost though is telling them
Maybe they could and this would be the excuse that would be used is
Well, the Holy Ghost is telling them a certain portion of the truth. And then they're confusing it with the whole thing
What would you call somebody who is selectively
parceling out bits and pieces of the truth to different people who are all convinced then that they have the truth?
Well what would I call them?
I mean, is that an honest...
... is that an honest individually?
if, if I tell... if there's 20 people or so out in the other room and
if I give each one of them a little piece of truth and there they are then convinced that they have the whole truth
and I don't actually correct that misperception
What kind of...  Am I an honest person?
Okay
The setup is pretty simple, and I see what you're saying about that,
yes, and in that certain regard to the the scenario that you're giving me
yeah, I think that you're...
you would be kind of a dick. I mean you would...
So why would, why would that not apply [It does apply] to those Holy Ghost things you've got?
Well, okay.
I suppose
It does. It does in a way
So now it's actually the second, the second issue which is all those people over there on the other side of the glass
they all have as
close to absolute confirmation as you could ever get that
Matt, the entity in question,
actually gave them this information. They're not relying on a loose feeling
so
Now you've got a case where one of the potential solutions is that
there's a lot of people in other religions who think they're getting messages from the Holy Sprit
but they're not because that's the only way you rehabilitate your... the idea of the Holy Ghost
if it's a truth teller and it guides you to truth is
to say that these other people aren't actually being guided by the Holy Ghost, even though they think they are
and that's about the only way to rehabilitate that, right?
Well.
Say that one more time.
So so the Holy Ghost
is the guide to truth and the Holy Ghost you are convinced,,,
you are convinced that the Holy Ghost has guided you to the truth of the of the LDS Church.
Oh, I did but now it's like kind of in question. [OK, but at some point you did?]
But there are other people in
Baptist churches and others who are convinced that the Holy Ghost guided them to the truth of their religion
and so that that's just the conflict
we just finished talking about
one way to rehabilitate that conflict is to say that you are actually getting the truth from the Holy Ghost
but they are not actually, they think that the Holy Ghost is leading the truth
but they're not actually getting anything from the Holy Ghost at all, right? that's a possibility.
well, yeah that and then that that's what I was trying to kind of say that yeah there the
argument of that is well, they have some truths.
They're getting the revelation of...
We are determined if that's the case then the Holy Ghost is a dick.
Well, yeah
Let me give you something else to think about and I'm trying to find this article on here and I can't pull it up
right now, but I'll find it. There's been a lot of studies done on people
who were thinking about what their concept of God thinks about an issue? Okay, one of the studies they did
and I think this was published in...
I can't remember now exactly where it was published
This is a peer-reviewed study that was published. The researchers set this up
so that people were asked questions about what other people thought about certain
high-profile issues. Things like abortion, capital punishment,
marriage equality, that sort of thing. Things that were likely to
provoke strong opinions about that. So they were asked about what,
say, different celebrities or politicians thought about these issues.
They were asked what they personally thought about those issues and then they were asked what their god thought about those issues and
they were put in an fMRI machine, a functional MRI machine
for these studies, so that the researchers could look at what part of the brain lights up when they think about, you know,
what these different
scenarios entail and
so when they thought about what someone else a
celebrity or a politician thought about these issues it would light up a certain part of the brain and
then when they thought about what they personally thought about those issues a different part of the brain would light up
when they were asked what their god thought about those issues guess which part of the brain lit up?
I don't know all the parts of the brain but which part?
It was the part of the brain that corresponds to self
So that's why your God always hates all the same people you do
So when you're praying and you're thinking about you know what God wants and you think that's the Holy Spirit guiding you
It's just you
Well, yeah, and and that's more and more of the conclusion that I'm trying to, I guess,
elucidate in a way
because when you when you grow up
in and
invest so much and have an entire family with
with which
things start to become at odds with what you're discovering and and what you're finding to actually be real
It's difficult, especially [yes] when
it's a scenario in which, you know, you have
a family which,
you know, mom and dad don't see eye to eye on on on real important issues
[Matt:] And when you have a
religion that is going to make your family have to cut ties with you if you leave.
Yeah
I've never felt that, well, and that's, your, your, your kind of right and it's not necessarily like a
doctrinal thing at least not from anything that I have found. It's definitely much more
social and that is a very very
terrifying,
horrible
thought you know. I mean, it's it's my entire
world which would be completely ripped from me and
I've had, you know, a lot of these discussions with you know other people and you know, and
Many times it's kind of hard to talk about, you know, the bedrock of the issue. You know, what what is your foundation
truly built on, you know, and and
I can remember
experiences that I had I mean on my mission. I specifically remember I mean it was near a
vision of
Christ and Joseph Smith. I mean it was almost visual and if you would have asked me
It was in the middle of one of them are meetings
I mean I was just in I was a ball of snot and tears and I
You would have asked me at that moment, you know
Deny your religion or die without question die. I will die because this is true it is
Absolutely true.
And the thing to remember is that
your indoctrination is designed to produce that experience
For me the the primary question is whether or not it's true and
You are
Right! That's what I'd like, I mean...
Okay, but,
but the time to believe it is after there's sufficient reason to think that it's true and not one second before, and
so when we talk about these things if if we don't have a mechanism by which we can determine,
wth reliability, whether or not it's true, then belief can't possibly be warranted,
and instead, and this is this is the difficult part,
it would seem to be the case that I was convinced that my former religion was true on really bad
grounds. An awful foundation, and what was that foundation? that foundation was
the people around me shared those beliefs taught me those beliefs
How do I know what the Holy Spirit is?
I only know because other people have described it which is why you get into the fuzzy descriptions of you know
I had a feeling a peace or euphoria or while we were singing and praising. I felt elated I got goosebumps
Look as soon as people tell you this is what the Holy Spirit is like
then that just becomes a part of it.
Well, of course
these people are telling the truth and they know more about this than I do and they've had these experiences before as well
and so you get this, this self-reinforcing
script [right] and delusions and so [right] if it were actually true
First of all, it should be fairly easy to demonstrate because there's no shortage of believers
second of all
Does it make sense for there to be a God?
who wants some sort of interaction who doesn't provide sufficient evidence that he's actually there and the the
explanation that you've been trained to give is one about free will
That you know God can't reveal too much or it violates our free will.
Now....
I don't... I think the the Mormon view on Satan is that he's Jesus's brother?
Yeah, like he, yeah, and in the pre-existence there was a plan that God made
so then that way, you know, then the universe was created and
but he's evil? he's he's evil within context
Yeah, he was cast out because he went wanted to go against everything that God's
So here's the thing. [plan was]
Does Lucifer, assuming it's all true, doesn't Lucifer know?
with
seemingly absolute certainty that God exists and is real and has a plan and is powerful?
Right, and he knows the plan and he wants to destroy the plan. That's the doctorine.
Yeah, so if God can reveal himself fully
to Lucifer, to satisfy Lucifer, and it's not like Lucifer is running around questioning whether or not God exists
and yet he still maintains the free will to oppose that, right?
Yes, and this has been a huge dilemma for me this        [It should be]
exact scenario that you're talking about have been a huge thing because
it blows the
free will excuse out of the water because that means that God could show up and reveal himself to me personally right now
and I would I would no longer be an atheist
I would be completely convinced that a God exists and I would still have the freewill to reject him
Right exactly, and the the other dilemma that I've always had is, okay,. you have this battle in heaven,
and they describe it as a war, right? [Umhum] and 1/3 of the hosts were taken and they were led by
Satan and they are all now his his angels and do his bidding
If
Satan
absolutely knows, he still maintains his freedom, was kicked out of heaven
First of all, why the heck would you want to leave heaven when you know?
It would get you kicked out unless you have the idea that there was a possibility you could win
Yeah, but still even under that, you know
Sorry fantasy model Lucifer and a third all exercise their free will to reject God
despite being complete, you know, despite clearly having sufficient evidence that gods real. So if I say
Why can't God give me sufficient evidence that he's real then free will is no longer a plausible explanation, right?
Yeah, you're right I mean yeah
So now the question is why doesn't God reveal himself to everybody
Because we all need to take it on faith
Ok, is is faith a pathway to truth and understanding?
Well, I mean that's definitely become something that
I've become less and less privy to. That's for sure.
I don't think that it is because [How could it be?] and you were talking about
How could it be?
Is there any position you couldn't just take on faith?
Right. No, you're right
And that's why it's always been less and less and I don't accept it as a good way to you know receive truth
Which is you know?
Constantly waned and waned and you know, so if you were God? [Yeah]
Would you expect anybody just to take it on faith?
Well, no it's like with my kids, you know. Would I just be an absent father and maybe
send them, you know, little secret messages when they grow up to, you know,
teach them about me and what I do, I think that's kind of ridiculous, you know.
Yeah, and I think it's worse than that. I think it's worse than that because your kids have met you
So what if you had grown up without a mother and a father you'd grown up in an orphanage?
Never knew any of your relatives and yet every now and then you'd find a message that claimed. It was from your parents and
They were telling you what to do. And if you didn't do it, they were gonna take you in the basement and torture you
Yeah. No, I mean that's
Well, I
guess to be fair
Mormons, we don't believe that it's necessarily like there's a few people that go to the quote-unquote hell circle
it makes it a little easier, but no, I understand the
premise of you
well
You can also you can also go down the path that you know in Mormonism eventually if it we're all true
You're gonna end up a God of your own realm and then you can make up whatever rules you want
Yeah
yeah, yeah, so basically
that doesn't that mean that you got stuck in the realm where the God is a dick who's hiding and
and only by obeying the dick God who's hiding
can you then become a good and benevolent God who's honest and open with your creation at you know, some other universe I?
suppose, I mean it does
yeah, it opens up a can of worms which is why a lot of you know, my my faith has
waned quite a bit because of
because of all those spots, you know, I've thought about a lot of those things and
It's just hard to
walk away from that with a lifetime [I get it] of investment [I get it] and and
When we are gonna.. I am gonna move on to some other callers
but I want to leave you with a few thoughts and you're always welcome to call back or you can email tv@atheist-community.org,
but number one
you've got to make a decision about whether you care more about whether something is true than whether it's comforting
and then you don't get to choose what you believe you're either convinced of it or you're not but you do get to choose
to some extent how you act and there are plenty of people who no longer believe in
not only in the LDS Church, but in the Baptist churches and everything else
they don't believe but to keep going for the sake of maintaining their relationships with their family and their friends and
out of fear of what will happen what the cost is going to be if they were to give it all up
You you have to make the decision about what you're comfortable putting up with in order to keep the peace
and is it more important to be true to yourself and true to the truth of
what you what you aren't convinced of and it's not easy, but you are by far not alone
in these struggles and once people do find their way out of different religions, there are a lot of organizations
where they're recovering from religion organization, there are there's a secular therapy project to help, you know people deal with those sorts of things
There's groups like the ACA where you can just come and visit with like-minded people
and it doesn't mean, you know,
If you could come down and hang out with us tonight and have all kinds of conversations about your doubts and concerns
It doesn't mean you're an athiest, which is why we were welcomed with
atheist friendly people as well
I don't want to diminish in any way the difficulty that you're going through because [right] I know
from my own personal experience, from my wife's transition out.
From the thousands of people who have emailed
after they've left religion how difficult their life was
but I also
would be remiss if I didn't point out how many people utterly find find life far more fulfilling and rewarding
by not being trapped into trying to find a way to justice by things they no longer believe
and how sometimes, in some cases, all it's taken is one person
though people know and like and think are
reasonable to find their way out and to honestly have those conversations with other people you might find
that there are many more people in your family who are have the same doubts that you do have thought the same
things that you have who have their own concerns and at the end of the day
you can't believe something
unless you have a good, unless, you know, are convinced of it
What's the worst thing that could happen if you decided hey, I'm not even its name and decision if you're just recognized
I don't believe what the LDS Church is teaching anymore
and you die and
you die, right then not convinced. Have you given it a
full honest effort
to try to find out what the truth is and if you have how can it possibly be your fault?
Right, I
yeah, the biggest that I'm not afraid of the it's just the fear of
the family and, like you said, you know, the the sacrificing of the social life and sacrificing
you know, and it wouldn't be of course of my volition just be because you know doctrine states, you know, [yep] [right]
where my family's eternal [I think the scientist] If I don't believe it's eternal, it's like an eternal divorce. You know what I mean?
And and that's an uncomfortable feeling for people on the other side
You don't believe that we're gonna be together anymore. I don't know if I want to be with somebody like that
You know, it's it's a hard thing to
think about
but you get to be together now!
Yeah, what yeah, so we love and it's I do almost anything for it
You know.
I think the fact that you're far more concerned about the family relationships. Not only
should be brought up if if ever those discussion has but tells you a lot about what you are and aren't convinced of right now
You know, you're far more concerned about the relationship you have
If somebody says, if you don't believe we're gonna be together forever
then I want to end the relationship right now rather than can
continuing on until we die, than what does that tell you about
what their mind state is which I would not end a relationship with somebody now
merely because they thought we weren't gonna be together after we're dead?
Yeah
That's true but still hurts
I know and
we've heard from a lot of people
who are completely ostracized from their family and there's no easy answer.
For some people the pain probably never goes away.
yeah, so, uh
Question and do you do you know off the top of your head than any?
secular type of organization like the ACA up hearing Casey
Yeah, Kansas City Oasis is one of them I've spoken there as well. It's a they meet on Sundays. It's
It's a little more a
It's a social gathering group
There's also recovering from religion chapter in Kansas City as well
You can oh yeah, both of those are available
Okay, and in worst case I go up to Kansas City once a year
So keep an eye on my Facebook page and you know, maybe we'll go out and have a drink or something. Oh wait
Oh, oh you can do that now
Well, hey man, I appreciate I'll buy you some Oklahoma Joe's
Or Joe's barbecue. Now. Are you tired of that Texas junk?
Oh, no, no, no, no see the thing is having grown up in Kansas City
and now living in Texas
I have had a chance to fairly judge both of them
And while this will cost me mountains of fan, Texas barbecue is generally superior to Kansas City's barbecue. Sorry
well, I have no experience in that so I can't say really but hey guys, thanks for
Taking the time
You know you guys have been instrumental in helping
Definitely I mean, you know, you hear it all the time. Well keep
Because we like to find out what happens after yeah, okay
All right. Take care of I appreciate the call. All right. Thanks. No problem
By the way, I still love Kansas City barbecue and Tennessee barbecue
I just well Carolina barbecue and there's all kinds of barbecue and the biggest difference
the biggest differences is the sauce and
I'm diabetic, so I can't say these losses
Molasses-based a little sweet. I don't know what
But also, you know, you've got mesquite trees down here to smoke with that's right. That's a that's a really cool flavor and brisket
Yeah, if you're out if you're out in Tennessee in the Carolinas you tend to not get brisket as much as you get
Pulled pork pork. Yeah
Which is fine
Gonna be wrong you. Yeah, you put a plate and put some barbecue in front of me. I'm probably gonna enjoy it. Yep
