The wound bills in the back was not a fatal one. I did help John Kennedy's brain. Yes
Well, I assume it was john, f kennedy's brain
When the body first came in and you sod did you notice anything out of the ordinary
There's a portion of the brain here that was missing. There was an incision in the scalp. Why would there be an incision?
That's a good question
Throat one probably would have come from over the bridge probably right right off of the railroad
What's your opinion on Lyndon Johnson
Who was it two people that benefited the most him in
Soloq if the topic of JFK assassination intrigues you you're gonna love today's interview
Here's why obviously I've had other people on value tenman before with Clint Hill who was a former Secret Service agent
He was the first agent that jumped on the car when John F Kennedy was shot
We've also had Abraham Bowden who was the first African American Secret Service agent. But today we go complete different angle
Today I wanted to sit down with somebody. This is very rare because it's been 55 years since the event the assassination, November 22nd
1963 when the autopsy happened there were four people in the room. Who did the autopsy
He is one of them and during the autopsy three people held the brain. This is what we have the brain here
He held the brain. He was one of them and he saw some stuff
That's gonna surprise you and we're time as somebody that witnessed
What he saw in the brain that's different than maybe what you've read about and so we're gonna take a deep deep dive today on
What happened from the moment the body was announced dead to the delivery to Air Force One
From there to protest that the casket go with Jackie did it go with somebody else? What happened there?
All I can tell you is I'm gonna ask one question during this interview
that I'm so curious with the answer and we're gonna see what Jim Jenkins gonna tell us today in this interview with that being said,
Jim thank you so much for coming down and being willing to open up and talk about this topic with us
Thank you for inviting your document it all over the place
If you go read any the you know, the autopsies any of the reports, whether it's the Warren Commission
Whatever the reports you read your document or there are somebody that was a part of it
But you've not wanted to come out and talk a lot about it
Now obviously William a friend of yours who decided to write a book with you
Kind of maybe persuaded you to say this is a story. We need to go tell are you willing to do it?
But first I want to thank you secondly
Is that want to kind of a get some thoughts from you on?
What caused you not want to talk about it all this year all these years and why now, are you a little bit more?
I have to answer
The people who asked me and it's like, you know
If I had told you when I was in graduate school that I did the autopsy
you know JFK, would you ever believe me and
That's kind of the way that I look at it
It was a part of it the fact that you didn't think people would believe you
If you told them that because if we were friends, let's just say I'm your friend and I'm your best man at your wedding
well
You're my best man at my wedding and you told me something like that like oh my gosh, Jim
That's crazy to really tell me about it. I'd want to know more as a friend on what you did
You seem like a private guy. He seemed like a simple man
You don't seem like a you know, he seemed like you just wanted you've been married since August of 63
Was there also part of it? We just didn't want people to have a certain level of intrusion on your personal life
I think a lot of it was that. Okay. There's a lot of
Memories that I have in that book that are specific but there are other things in the book that I remember
That I've tried to you know, try to tie in some of the events when I first began this book
I was going to read and and I have all kinds of books have a bookcase
the books that people have sent me over the years I
Haven't read them. I'm from Iran. So it's born in Iran. I saw the war I saw people dying
I saw things that happened that maybe you don't necessarily want to experience
I saw something weird scenes in my left with ten thousand men
Flagellating their backs on the streets and there's a streak of blood
I mean, I was eight years old and I saw that that's not something I want to see again, right?
Was this one of those things where you said man? This was so traumatic on me
that I don't ever want to revisit it or was it the fact that you were just doing your job you have a lack of
Interest on the topic, like honestly, you know, it just so happened. I accidentally was chosen to be a part of this
I didn't choose to be a part of this. I was just doing my job. Which one would you say was more?
I think the latter. Okay god, I this is not a
You know
It's not a highlight of my life. It hasn't affected my life
at all, but I think that's because I
Really you're not
Participated in it. What's the reasoning though?
Paul O'Connor was the other core woman right by the way
Just to say when you say the other core mean the other core man who was part of the RIT
They were too. I was only two of us Pauline George's
You know being involved and that type of thing I had other goals in my life most of the participation that I have done
Was at the encouragement of Paul Paul would call me and say well, you know
This individual once wants to interview you I would be hissing about and he said well if hall would tell me well
He's a good guy, but it was it was a reluctance somewhat hard, you know
I didn't want to get involved in all of what was going on
is this after the two gentlemen who were kind of hostile to you with the HSC a
Committee that they interviewed you even after that you were open to it or after he like, I'm not doing any interviews
Well, the interview was interesting. I was in graduate school at that time
I was in my office and I got a call from a lady and she told me that these two individuals
Kelly and Purdy were going to show up at my house on such-and-such state is such a such time and
They were going to talk to me
About my participation and in the autopsy. I said no you're not I
Said you're not going to come to my house. I don't know you you're strangers
So then she told me that this was a congress mandated
Commission and that I
Was compelled to do this or they would subpoena me at that time. I was at Jackson, Mississippi and in the medical school there and
so I went to my
local congressman one of his aides
Checked to make sure that this was legitimate and he suggested that I meet in his office
So I met Purdy and Kelly in his office. It wasn't an amiable type
Situation they had told me that that Ferdie and Kelly were actually lawyers for the House Select Committee
Anyway, they were going to come in to take a deposition
Well when?
the secretary
for a congressman
checks their credentials we found out that
Indeed Purdy was an attorney. The Kelly was an FBI agent. What were they trying to get from you though?
I mean
What did they would they conspiracy a conspiratorial?
Did trying to they basically were looking for confirmation of the Warren Commission findings
They wanted me to firm that the magic bullet was yeah
yeah, and in a single Bullet theory was correct and
they never really asked me, you know, basically what I did what I saw or
what I participated in and
every time I would
they were they were always saying well that King possibly happened because of this this and this they say well, you know
I don't know another witnesses said this there are there was only
the doctors and
Paul
So I knew that you know what they were saying came from
from one of those individuals
and this one you knew that in a moment based on the question because see I
Until Paul called me in and talked to me about this interview. They were are this deposition?
I
Really never discussed the autopsy with Paul and so wait a minute
So after the autopsy you and Paul didn't have a debrief. You guys didn't talk about it and nothing ever. I don't know
No, because we were given orders
you know, we were given orders by the Secretary of the Navy and
also by
Department of Defense
not to
discuss him
So so the only reason you were open to the House Committee coming to you is because it's coming from Congress
Well that it wasn't Plus. That was the first time they rescinded the orders
Got it
We they sent us letters for sending Miller's when they interviewed. You did. Did you get a feeling that they were for?
What the Warren Commission came out and they results that's what they said Oh, were they against it to try to get?
conspiracy were they kind of trying to get the check mark from you to say that he also agrees that what they said in the
Warren Commission is accurate. I said I believe that's I mean that was my my feeling did you watch JFK movies?
Did you watch the you know, did you watch anything so you do know till today?
You don't you don't watch or follow any of this. You've never been to the Dealey Plaza before no for 55 years. You have fully
Disconnected that part of your life to not have to be tied to it. I was actually surprised about
No interest that people had in this
after the 50 years
We were surprised by them. Oh, yes. Why would you be surprised by its a president that was assassinated was well
I mean the assassination and to me in such an enigma and it's never had a legal conclusion
The conclusion has always been political. Would you want to see a legal conclude? Yes. I'd like to see usually participate in a legal
Yes
Oh
So you would be yeah
So you so it's not the fact that you're just trying to set it aside and not do anything with it
So you would be you would like to see like you know what I think was
1995 when they came out with the AR RB
When they came out and they wanted to reinvestigate and find out what's going on and they went through certain things
You would want to see somebody else open it up again to go through an investigation to find out what happened a legal investigation
I know not political the
investigation but everything even even the
Record Review Board, which is what you're speaking of
It had restrictions when the Clark Commission was there all of the people appointed to the Commission
Had ties to the government. They had obligations to the government
The pathologist's that reviewed the case and so forth
Are the doctors? I'm not sure although more pathologists
but they had ties to doctors they had grants they were
participating in federal projects and that type of stuff and the one step probably would have been
more
objective
Certainly people like dr. Sarawak after the House Select
They were they were kind of excluded they were all pushed away. So there's never in my in my mind in my opinion
There's never been a real
Objective committee or anything that's delved into this. Why do you think
why is it because if we found that we would all be well, I think that we
that that gets into
Some things and and I'm only judging and I can only judge by the autopsy in and there
more people out there that know more about anything outside that more than I do, but I
It just doesn't make sense
That what we saw at the morgue what we did it to more and what I participate in
Like the brain, you know, there were two FBI agents that said there was no brain. Paul said there was no brain
But yet
Dr. Humes took a brain out of the cranium handed it to dr. Boswell and dr. Boswell and I went over and
I
Knelt down and he gave me to the brain. I turned it upside down put it in the sling you did
I did help John Kennedy's brain. Yes. Well, I
Assume it was john. F kennedy's brother. That's one other part, right? So right and
What you know is the book describes and in that I don't know if you I've been asked many times
Is it was it? John f kennedy's brain?
do you think it was I haven't I really don't have any any way of knowing and neither does anyone else unless
Somebody who?
Who really participated in in?
You know
covering
up some parts of the assassination can come forth and say now I'm also personal mistake in that since
There's so much stuff that's come out that if I relate it back to what I saw and so forth
There's always a question about it
It sounds like you believe it's important for us to know the truth on what happened
But you also believe that if it's a government investigation being done
Whoever's involved on the inside if it's only the government controlling and not on the other side
We're only gonna get the answer from somebody's on the inside. Well, for instance, I've worked with a friend of mine
who's a neurologist I've tried to be allowed to go into the archives and review the
photographs and
any evidence that they have there I've been denied but yet he he was allowed in and
To see the x-rays and so forth now
Those x-rays I fade-in. I actually helped
position of the body and so forth and when the first set of x-rays that we did
I remember the first photographs went ahead was first unwrapped
They took photographs all during the autopsy, and I was busy so I really wasn't paying much attention to that
But there's a photographs from the Fox photographs
They're strange
But let me ask you this because you said you didn't have interest but why were you asking to money to get the photographs?
it was there a moment where you kind of felt obligated to want to find out again some answers because well
It sounds like there's a little bit of conflicted
The willingness the desire and also at the same time wanted to stay away three years ago
I committed to this to writing this book and
All of this has occurred within that time frame. So you asked for the photographs on the last three years
Oh, yeah, so your desire to want to go deeper on this is the last three years
well, I have talked to you like said the friend of mine the neurologist and
He and I have discussed what he saw in the archives and what I remember seeing
Or what? I actually participated in and remember seeing we've come to some conclusions, but not really
things that I would consider
to be emphatically true
Okay
As far as participating in this three years ago when I when I finally agreed to do this if William wood
would furnish because I I'm basically finding in medicine and science and I'm not a
Journalist or a writer and he agreed to help with you. Then his first suggestion was that I need to start reading
the material I
started a couple of books, but then I began to realize that if I read all of this material then I
May have a little brain melt, you know, and it might come in because you know 50-year old memories
are difficult enough to begin with so I stopped doing that and
Then I began to talk to the people that I knew we're at Bethesda not necessarily in the morgue
We're at Bethesda. And then I I was fortunate enough to be able to talk to
the honor guard people gentleman named Dennis David who was in charge of a
Detail that actually he was an e6 who became an officer later on. I'm you sir for we love and yours, I think right
Yeah, what did he tell you when you spoke to him? Well, he he and I talked about the
Unloading of the body from from the black hearse
Dennis gave me more of a time frame than anything else because I was in the morgue actually from about 3:30 in the afternoon
To about 8 9 o'clock the next morning
You knew the body was coming. We were told about he was coming. Yes. Would you mind us going through the
Timeline of what happened from the moment they found out he's dead
To the moments because that's where that's where the challenges with this story. Right? I mean you write autopsies
I've been challenged for me when I look at it. I'm a numbers guy
So first they find out he's dead boom checkmark, then they say let's put his body
They wrap him up in a nice. They put him in a really nice casket. They take him to Air Force One. That's number two
Lyndon Johnson's waiting there rather than going back to DC to have the body being delivered to the plane
Which is kind of a little bit wild for that gets to Air Force One then they fly back to Bethesda
DC they land
They take that nice casket and they put it in the automobile that Jackie Kennedy is writing you to go to
Where you're at the morgue they arrived actually at 7:30
But the body doesn't come in to 717 and the body doesn't come in till 8:00 and the challenge that I'm seeing
There is another automobile
delivers
cascade that's used for Vietnam veterans back in the days just to gb type of casket that
apparently they took John F Kennedy and they put him in a body bag and they put him there and that was
Brought to you guys at around 6:00 at 6:30. There's an hour and a half before 8 o'clock. So
That's the part. That's
completely cure see and again - I really don't have
Any insight into that either but reports are at the boys young report. And yeah
All of that him and Dennis David's timing and seeing this I had to have a timeline for this
As I was writing it I had no personal timeline because you know all I saw
Was the body being brought in in?
What I consider to be a shipping casket that
Was striking in the fact is that it was the president's body in that in that such a ordinarily you saw that yes
Yes, you saw the shipping cast. Yes, I did and that's not typical protocol to put a president under shipping casket
I wouldn't think so you witnessed at yours. Yes. I saw checkmark in that time. Well, you saw that part
Yeah, the casket came in and it was brought in by
by people they were in
Business suits
mmm, and they may have been a couple of military officers with it, but they were brought it was brought in and it was
brought
Into the morgue proper sat down on the floor
Paul
Helped them take the body out and they put the body on the table in front of me now
I've you I'm used to Dennis Davis timeline and I use it because
sergeant Morgan's
action report stated
635 several years ago. We talked to an individual his name and was well, he was dr. J
Scott I believe
and he's told us that he was the
officer of the day for the Vitesse a hospital during the conversation was with william law William asked him what time the
Body came in and he immediately said 6:30. So I took sergeant Boren and
Dr. Scott as
collaboration for the time
That Dennis quoted and then I used that time as a lie as a timeline for the autopsy
at that point in time I had memories but I
I wasn't quite sure of sequencing of them and then over the three years that I've been
Writing this book. I basically just write sections and
certain things and so forth and then each section would begin to support RS or
create questions about that particular memory the timeline that I use like I said as his Dennis's
That timeline gave me the ability to say the body was here at 6:30
When when the body was put on the table, everybody was asked to leave the body was still it was on the table
It's still wrapped in the sheets had anybody was separate and then dr. Boswell left the morgue for I
Don't know 15 20 minutes, maybe and I just assumed he was going back up to the laboratory to
You know talk to dr. Humes and while the bodies in front of you
yeah, the body is in the morgue and the morgue what Paul and I this is what time I
assumed that had to be somewhere between
6:30 and 7:00 o'clock if I say it took him approximately
10 minutes to unload the body from the Hurst and bring it to do that because see
Dennis in his his group or his his crew. They did not bring him into the morgue
They brought it to the morgue door
According to Dennis and then someone back. Yeah, and somebody took you from there
The morgue was set up where there was little any room that had
Coll boxes where we put the bodies to me and then then it came into the morgue proper
So let me ask you from the moment. It was delivered to the morgue from the back
Not the one with Jackie Kennedy had a right around 7:30 to 8:00 o'clock
I'm talking to one that arrived early from that moment word showed up in that cheap casket to the moment where you saw it
What was that time line? I would say probably no more than
five minutes, okay, because you just was unloaded onto the to the dock and then
Brought in to them in through the double doors and then mork's mmediately to the left as soon as it came
through the door from the inner rooms and I saw the casket and
That's when I that's what I remember. And the reason I remember that is the fact is that it was such a plain casket
You know
and and that was that struck me as being the president's body would be in a in a
Transport casket now this entire time Jackie's thinking the bodies and ornate casket that she was driving in that that's the one that's being delivered
I really owe my part. That would be
Conjecture or speculation got it. And
I'm not comfortable with that. We're getting into that
Let's come back to when the body came in when the body first came in and you saw it
Did you notice anything out of the ordinary the body was?
was wrapped
You know, the head was wrapped in sheets and the body was wrapped separately in sheets
The body was taken out of the casket the morgue had two tables
We did the autopsy on the table where I was the casket
the body was actually taken out between the back table and
He was on the floor and it was put on the table in front of me at that time
Dr. Boswell thanked everybody in nestin relief and everyone left the morgue then dr. Boswell left and
Paul and I were there we were told not to unwrap the body and not to let anyone in the morgue and about
15 minutes I say about 15 minutes later. Dr. Boswell came back and
We unwrapped about the body
We left a head wrapped and then we spread a sheet over from the waist down and then dr
Boswell handed me the clipboard what we called a face sheet. It's a form where you put all scars
Wounds any surgical traumatic whatever. It's basically a
Superficial
Description of everything then before you go to the body we were doing that as we were doing that
I was writing down. What dr. Boswell was
Just telling me it's it was a little unusual to be doing it that way
it was Jesus the other way around while we were doing that just
Almost when we were finished. Dr. Humes came in and he had a
He was followed by I
believe three or four military officers they were
They were flag. Great. In other words. They were at rules are our general got it. The officers went into the gallery. Dr
Humes came to the table. I'm not exactly sure when dr. Fink came in
He was there when Humes unwrapped ahead. That's kind of con
Kindig turi to what he says. I mean we just reported to
his commanding officer, which he said he didn't come in until
The brain the heart and the lungs were out of the body when in dr
Humes he unwrapped the head he and and dr. Fink examined the head and that in front of you
Oh, yeah
Oh, well, I'm saying the shoulder I'm standing it's the right shoulder of the president looking down like that
And at this point how many autopsies have you done yourself up to this point?
and how many brains have you seen a lot of no we
When I started I you know, it's Marian August. We went immediately. It's Bethesda
I started doing and my duty I was a student there. I had classes and so forth, but
Every fourth night I had duty and we would do
Two maybe three autopsies a night. So I really don't know how many I had done. So you've seen a number of different
Yeah, I wound it brains. You've seen a different scenarios most of the things that we did it at
Bethesda were actually patients from the hospital
I remember only probably one other trauma that I remember is that a sailor had night out and hit a
concrete barrier most of the others were
People who had died from that we had drownings from Annapolis
Had you seen any other shooting like had you done an autopsy where there was a I know I had not got it
No, so while you're looking at Fink and Humes doing what they're doing
What would what did you notice did you see anything different?
You know the description of the head wound that is in the autopsy report hesitate to use the word spin
But I think it's a spin on what what we really saw. Could you elaborate please?
well, it's actually the
size of the wound
Location of the wound, I believe that the measurement that's in the autopsy report
Actually is the measurement of the wound
Not of the opening where the bone and scalp was missing but actually was a measurement of the total
Wound shown after the scout was reflected
In other words the whole right side of the head was malleable. You could actually just move it around with your hands
The skull was fractured in
Multiple areas from would you mind if we take out the brain?
Yeah, you kind of showed to us what you would you mean by the little bit more visual. Is that okay with you?
Okay. Now the description of the wound is not going to be this is not going to give you a description of the of the
Wound itself. It's only going to be the skull the skull is going to give you a description of the one this will
Will give you an idea of what I saw the brain looked like as opposed to the extensive damage
that was in the autopsy report and
This brain the brain that that I had they
this should be about
The damage for this brain was
basically in this area here
That's what you saw. Yeah. Okay, there's a portion of the brain here
That that was missing fully missing. Yeah, okay
But it was it was less than a third of the total brain
Less than a third of the total brain or less than a third of half the brain no the right side
No, it's less than a third of the total brain. Okay was approximately the area right here. Got it
Okay, that's significant because in the autopsy report
They say that over
Half of the total brain was was missing the other thing in the autopsy report
they say that there was a deep laceration that ran this way and
Was internally down into the ventricles here
and then also in the ear had a description of
It penetrating into this area here
now the wound that I saw this is the occipital area here in the parietal area here and in the temporal area in
here the wound was here about approximately where my finger is and
It's extending down here. It was about three and a half inches long
Just being the length about two inches wide that was where the missing bone was and the missing tissue was
Okay, it wasn't it wasn't exactly a square or round thing the top of it of the wound was kind of domed
and it came down and
kind of had a little
Te'o type thing that came back down into here and then it kind of came back up
In this area now the strange thing about it was at this top of the wound here
There was an incision in the scallop they went
Approximately to the coronal suture here. I
went a little bit past here an
Incision an incision. Well, I saw right it was actually see. Why would there be an
That's a good question the scalp
Had, you know remember all of this all this this portion in this area is fractured
Okay to the sagittal suture, which is this suture
All of this area was fractured now, but it was it wasn't gone
it was he was still being kept intact by the by the scalp scalp had rents and tears in it and
along this area
It seemed like that some of those tears in the scalp had been
surgically connected the little connections to follow
fracture line in here
Okay, and that extended to about here? Okay, you know that was the same when when dr
Humes took the
Wrappings off of the head. There was a secondary wrapping on it that I
you know, I think was the towel but the scalp and
And the whole thing
this was all all matted hair and
Missing scalloped torn scalp fatty tissue from underneath the scalp which is all normal. Yeah, which is all normal
Okay, it had kind of stuck to that secondary layer. So as he was taking it off
This Eric kind of gaped open
but as soon as we separated it from
from the towel
It went back together
now
that
significant rule and for the fact is that you could actually
If if you want you to do that you could actually lay this skull open you could actually take your hands and separate it
okay, so
That would have given you access to the brain
Which means
which
Again speculations short as that fact is that that you would have had access?
You possibly had access to the rain before we received it in that in the morgue
But where would they that is that's a question that I would force one on the drive. That's not enough time
Well, I don't know
There's a lot of theories
There's a lot of probabilities last year. I
have friends that were in school with me and and I visited one of their friends in DC and
Just out of curiosity
william law and I we actually went to visit think Oh Franco Lennox it was given to
the military and
Before World War one
It was under
Walter Reed Walter Reed was responsible for it. They used it for
Convalescence for world one world war two patients and so forth
So I wanted to check out that because there was an individual
Had speculated and he said that surgery was done a clandestine service surgery was done
At this Glen Cove annex, and so we decided to see if it was possible
we
Drove to the complex
Drove back to the back gate at Bethesda. He was eight minutes
GPS the
funeral home that was involved in it was scholar's
we actually
time to distance from Gaulish funeral home to Bethesda, which again was about eight minutes now and
Recently, we found that there may have been another funeral home that was involved in it Humphreys
paw fries supposedly had
the
Contract with Bethesda Naval Hospital at that time
understand I
My command was not in the Naval Hospital
My command was the Naval Medical School there. There's also a possibility that the person
Tom Robinson who performed who actually prepared the body along with a couple of other people was not an employee of
Callers he was an employee of Humphreys
We haven't been able to confirm that I've tried in the last three years to get in touch with Tom Robinson
Not been able to do that. What will be the difference if that was a case?
Well, I read an interview of Tom with a Swedish our Danish
Researcher Tom's description of the wounds and so forth are similar to
mine and
almost
Opposite of what's in you know?
what what's being told in public and so forth the exaggeration of the wounds when we receive the body there were other
other things that were unusual the
Tracheotomy that we were told it was a tracheotomy in the throat very unusual even for an emergency trach
Why is that?
Well, first of all
I never really seen a trach that was done horizontally and I've never seen a trach
That was that large it also had some ragged edges. Dr
Perry said that he actually had done that trach over a wound his description of the
trach wound that he did
was
Was what you normally would would expect
but if you did a trach there that was that
Wide you wouldn't you would probably never do it
Because in that area you you there would be a danger of damaging the thyroid so you wouldn't
It wouldn't be even as an emergency trach. You wouldn't want to create more damage
And especially in this situation when you wouldn't want to damage one of the primary
life supporting organs that and
The wound in the head the only other wound that I actually saw
was the one in the back and
It was it was in the upper back
at the upper border of the scapula
but this is that's the wound that that was on the
Only head itself the wound wasn't obvious as to the extent of it and the margins and so forth until the scalp
was actually reflected back from him and
When the Scout was reflected back
Some of the bone that was here to scalp had fallen off of it made it look larger than it really was
And I think that's the measurement that send the official autopsy
So when you saw the brain cuz you know, the conspiracy is it's not just one bullet the magic bullet
Whatever you want to call it and there's shots from the front not just from the back. It's not just Oswald
And by the way, no one's saying Oswald didn't shoot and he wasn't one of the shooters
They're just saying that there may be somebody from the front as well that shot. There's six or seven shots
What's your thoughts on that? From what you saw if in fact Oswald did shoot from the depository the wound that was in the back?
That I saw
Was not a fatal one the wound. I saw in the right temple and that couldn't have been Oswald. No
No, he couldn't it would have had to have come from from actually the right front
Look, I mean you're certain about that
I'm yeah I saw the wound
Dr. Humes, and dr. Fink found the wound you examined this whole area of the back. Yes, sir
were there any other wounds except one at the base of the neck and
One up in the spill. No sir that we're not about the
Head wound sir. There was only one it was the only one entrance wound in the head. Yes, sir
Now can you be absolutely certain that the wound you described as the entry wound was in fact that?
Yes, indeed we can so let me let me ask you this when you see everybody on TV
Every news everybody from TV Senate's from back at that moment when this happened you're there in the room
Every conversation go to dinner or lunch
friend people
Co-workers, how are you? Holding yourself back from saying they're lying. That's not the case. I guess it goes back to the same same credibility
You didn't think that would believe you've got anything right? How do I really don't want to be critical, but there are some really fine
Researchers out there a they've done a fantastic job and have dedicated
most of their life to them they don't
readily accept the possibility that
that they could be
incorrect
everything
that is new or
contradictory to their theories
so forth is
Automatically
Rejected I
Would be I you know, I would be more than willing to
participate in a
Objective legal inquiry where where you would be able to you know
Someone who's objected not and I'm not talking about a group of physicians
They were to review the evidence and that type of session I'm talking about a true
law-enforcement
objective investigation
Into a murder. Why do you think it hasn't been done yet, though?
Well, I'm not sure that it can be done. Why do you say that? I think the assassination of Oswald eliminated that possibility
and I think it was they wanted to keep
And this is all my opinion. Okay. I'm not I have no inside information anything
I think they wanted they wanted to keep it within the realm of
control
of the government, you know how sometimes when me and my wife go and let's just say a
Name comes up. That's her father's name and her father passed
I say are you thinking about your dad or you know how you go some places and
For me something comes up about Iran and home Amy and the Shah. She asks. Hey, are you okay?
I'm sure JFK came up many times was there ever like babe. What do you think about this Jim you okay?
Was it all buried those moments or she just respected and says look if you don't want me to go there
I'm not gonna go there. Well, actually
Since I started writing a book
She's become more involved
It's important to know you've been you guys been married for 55 years and three months
You got married August of 63, which was three years before the assassination
So you're selling I see it was actually August before this
The August before tea sends annexed. Yeah, that's what I was referencing always. So 55 years. You've been married 55 years
You've been married, this is maybe going a little bit
deeper
Myself, and I'm just curious to know
What do you think about it? What what is your opinion on Humes yourself? Do you have an opinion on Humes?
I think in Humes and Boswell and
Fink they were good people
but one of the things that that everybody seems to
To negate is the fact is that they were military
They were in knew in the Navy. They were all career officers. They were getting close to their retirement
My feeling is that they were given a scenario and they were
Directed to actually support that through all the autopsy findings now. I
Don't think that set well with dr. Humes
He really wasn't that kind of an individual, but he had no alternative
and that's one of the reasons I say that the autopsy a lot of the autopsy report is a spin on what we actually
saw
the measurement wounds
13
Centimeters that's almost 5 inches. That's
It's almost inch and a half over what?
What I actually saw now as a Cavett Cavett to that
I would like to say, you know, I didn't measure them but he did
Well, well what I think he used and then dr
Boswell actually said and his his notes that it was 19 centimeters
and I think what they did was that the measurement was taken after the
scalp was retracted some of the bone it separates from the scalp and have fallen in so it had increased the size of the
Wound that was actually missing where just seemed to be bone was missing. Would they being ordered?
Oh, yes, I'm sure
All the way from the top. Oh, I'm sure so then send. What's your opinion on Lyndon Johnson?
Not very well I figured that was the entire question I wanted to ask you today I was in San Antonio
and
I lived in San Antonio and Lyndon Johnson and San Antonio are in, Texas
was I
Guess you could say a good old boy
Politically he was supported he's not someone that you even want to invite to dinner. You know, it's amazing
I'm reading a book right now. I just finished a good friend of mine wrote Robert Greene and he talks about
Lyndon Johnson, heavily. Yeah, and he talks about how
Ambitious he was to the point where he was willing to
Do anything at all cost to make it to the next level in his career? And
how coming up for him he would go against Hubert Humphrey, you know the Triple H Ebert Humphrey and
then he had this one mentor of his Russell that kind of calmed them down and he tried to keep his motivation in it and
When you read about him
There's a little bit of animosity as towards JFK and amount of la viga
because a lot of a lot of animosity because he was never a great orator and
He was never loved like JFK was loved and he was way more ambitious
It was way more
important for him to become a president in JFK because in JFK's family his older brother was supposed to be President Joseph's right and you
know this because if you read history
the older brother was a war he died as a pilot and his father was
Depressed for several years. And so when you read this the part as I get deeper into this a lot of things make sense
You know when when you when you tie it up a lot of things make sense
Do you think a part of the investigation that is to be done?
Do you think there needs to be him involved in it as well or no?
You're thinking more specifically from researchers because I think a part of this is also to see two things one
You know the six soldiers that saw the casket coming in early, right?
You knew there was a couple a force a couple a fives and an e6 that later on became a lieutenant
So either they're lying, which why would they they're not be monetized?
Why would they say that they didn't see it? And then the other side is?
You know, why wouldn't they tell the truth?
And then the opposite side is what is the motive behind wanting to take the front bullet wounds out?
Would be the motive
so would you say Lyndon Johnson would need to be a little bit investigated to see there was a motivation there a small I
I would say I
Guess I can answer that with a question
Who were the two people?
In the government it's a time
That benefited the most
Him and Hoover
That's right, is that the right answer yeah, I
Just got the chills all over my body
Yeah
It goes deeper than that
by the way, because you have to go like five steps prior to him and Hoover on why Hoover so the story goes back of
Kennedy's running
I'm gonna go a whole different angle here and and and I'm curious to know where you're gonna say here. Kennedy's running
And Kennedy's having a hard time with Illinois, and there's a mayor Cook County
Who helps with the seven to eight thousand people? This is some conspiracy who were dead, but he helps and that mayor
Who one?
One because if Chicago mob boss apparently helped him out and the mayor's son who has became a late mayor later on they asked them
Was a mob ever involved in helping you?
So then you go to Chicago right and Chicago you go to
The mob that's trying to get JFK to become president after JFK's up winning
He didn't need Illinois, but he ended up winning illinois's. Well he won
Single-handedly over Nixon, okay
So then that happens and when that happened the mob always had Hoover
Not say that there's the mob
There's no such thing as the mob and Hoover never said it Jed guven ever said it
but because the mob had some insider information on Hoover that Hoover didn't want to become public and I think you may know what some
Of those things may be at that time. It was a big deal. And so
When this whole thing is taken place
Linden's extremely ambitious on what he wants to be
fastest way to become a you know, they say the fastest way to become a millionaires to marry one and
The fastest way to become a president is to be a vice president who?
Eliminates a president now again
This is all stuff that I read and I research and then you find out why he waited by the plane
Air Force One, you know why?
Years later when Jackie did a recording that the tapes was earned they found and he looked at Jackie Kennedy's recording. Why did she say?
Lyndon was a very dangerous man. She always feared him because she always felt like he wanted to do something to to John
and so when you put all these pieces of puzzle together, and why when the
Commission came out. Is it the Warren Commission when it came out? Why would he say 75 years seal?
Why not 30 years because that's the typical number. Why would we do 75 year old enlisted would be dead?
So no one would be able to investigate these guys
All these things are little bit too much for someone to say there's something here
we're dealing with you know, and you know even after the House Select Committee my
deposition and Paul's deposition was sealed again for another 50 years and
It was only released because of the record review board, there's so much involved in this and
one of the things that I've tried not to do is
to speculate now at the end of the book I a
Little bit I do. Yeah, and and you know, I've had people say well, you know, and and
and I guess I have to defend I
Guess I have to defend the doctors if you were looking at a retirement and you had a family
You'd spend all your life
you know in
one organization one company or something of that nature and
something came in threaten
your retirement and your pension and
even
Possibility of
Jail time and you were told well, you really don't have to lie about it, but you have to adjust it
What you know what you know to fit this
yeah, well, you told that I was and I was just I mean I was too low on the
totem poles
Howard Hughes Boswell and they may have been because a retirement so they had to make the right decisions for their families because
The 25-30 years is on the line. Sure
I mean they were they were all I think they were thirty-year people and third year people. You know, what happens with them?
You know what? I wouldn't mind doing
why don't you and I take a
break
and why don't we go to the Dealey Plaza and kind of see that and
Then come back and finish the interview if you don't mind because it's based on what we're talking about here
I'd like to see what you think. The other angle would be if they was shot
Where would are we coming from? If you don't mind taking a break and going to the Dealey Plaza?
So that's the X right there
So Jim if that's the eggs and the shot from Oswald came from there and you're looking at the brain
We would have to assume the other shot that you saw in the front would come from where if we're standing there probably
Right there somewhere around there because actually the shot was in the temple
Exited here. Temple hit the temple of God, right a little bit above and in front of the year right in the hairline
That's that's was the first
And then it exited back here and that's why he kind of shook back and he won back
yeah, and say the thing about it, is that the wound that they
Mentioned in the autopsy and so forth in the back of the head is missing
I never saw that you never saw that no
I should have seen him because I handle the body for the x-ray actually placed
The film cassettes
for
Custer what is this - for your own level of curiosity being here. Does it do anything for you? Not really?
I I mean I always wanted to come down
It's it's a lot smaller than I I see. Oh, yeah, that's right. It's a place now people all over the world
Come here to see the sex
There's a throat wound probably with it come from right over the bridge
Probably right right off of the railroad
Or it could have come from
Individuals see where those people are standing this group or the ones in the back. Yes
To where the guy is to begin?
It could have come from there in one of the photographs in the book the neck wound
You can see in the right side of the neck one where there's a ragged area
top
If you look closely
you'll also see that there is a a
Ridge or tunnel under the skin that goes up with so what was that the are you saying? That's another bullet
I think that's probably the one that dr. Perry described
I think it was removed because see the one in the back never penetrated the pleural cavity and
Humans could actually probe it with his little finger, but there was no room. There was no boy later
You said he went in what a an inch an inch and a half with his finger?
Little finger with his middle with his pinkie was a little bit
yeah, huge that huge mean but he did it actually in never penetrated the
chest cavity
AutoCAD apparently did make a bruise on the wrong because hummin on the
Backside of the middle lobe of the right long just to call the middle lobe
On the first load there was kind of a reddish spot there that we saw they moved it up to the top of the line
he also moves the wound in the back from the
Area where it was to the neck wound and all of that was the support to single Bullet theory
So let me ask you. Can you put a number two how many?
Bullets, you think there was shot or know just what you saw with the brain
You wouldn't be able to know that tell you when I left the mortgage
Like I saw at least two wounds that I thought that you were one
I wasn't aware of the neck wound because we had been told it was a it was an emergency trach and believe it alone
got it, and
That was those were there only two wounds
that's all I never saw the supposedly entry wound in the back of the head and
In reality if there had been an entry wound
They're where they located it would have been within the big wound in the back of the head where all the stuff was missing
it would have had to have been either on the margin of it or whatever and I
Didn't see that and then the pictures of the face show. Honestly, I believe that was that was government in this information
It's inconceivable for me that that Fox would have had possession world
They've been so tight on everything else. Everything's been just
totally
Locked away in all of the real evidence that was given to Robert Kennedy, and apparently he disposed of it
Yeah, there's just too many questions. Well, so you're saying there's nothing really can happen for there to be an open investigation now, right?
I don't think that the government will allow it because they there's so much stuff that they still have sequestered
they won't release and what we were hoping Trump wouldn't be involved in all of this to the point and he was released it but
And he did he released a lot of it
But the thing about it is it wasn't submitted so it wasn't significant stuff. It was not it
Had nothing to do really with the autopsy
what's the biggest worry with it as though what is the worry and the concern that if
Comes out that it was an inside job
It's going to show the rest of the world a level of instability, you know a level of unstable government internally
I don't think that that's the case, you know, when the founding fathers established the country. They didn't establish the House of Lords
Now we have a House of Lords, which is
Congress, so I think it's it's a
see why I
Cya, you mean
Yeah, neither cosa, I believe that. Yeah, I believe it to
investigate a
Attorney General or Assistant Attorney General, they subpoena me. He just ignores it
How is that possible without repercussions of course Johnson said it was because the people couldn't handle the right information
Are those what really happened? I think it's to go further, but that's again - that's my
That's my take on that
Speculation of course and which you notice with him?
He was loved around the world, you know
a lot of
Countries around the world started museums on behalf of his name because of the level of admiration that for us
I think that's probably why there's such a high level of wanting to know exactly what happened. What was the motivation behind it?
well
I think that he was one of the first people in a long series of presidents that actually was
Beginning to look at the people as people power of who's in charge. Where the Republican Democrat?
Yep army, or you yep?
No, and that's that's all is I saw politics in this country as we go power
They buy them they buy it's easy to buy in nowadays
It's a money game and you wonder you you go and see who can be bought and who can't be bought and you know
The voters sitting there saying I like this guy, but it's not as much as you like in the voter
there's too much of that like you said corporations are coming in and are able to buy votes and
Whether they want to do something that has to do with regulation or making it difficult for their competitors to do something
They're not looking at the political side. They're looking at more regulations that's going to hurt competition
Let me ask you did you ever did you spend a lot of time study in Oswald or not?
Really his background, you know him wanting to be a Russian citizen and all that stuff or no
I really don't know, you know people ask you do you do I think he he killed Kennedy? Yeah
well
That's actually not a climbing to stay off question
Because if he's shot at Kennedy and he shot from behind Kennedy
Then what he did he was he was apparently responsible for the back room, which was hospital and would not have been available
You're certain of that that it wouldn't been fatal, you know
And you saw that back wound? Yeah, what would have been worst case with that?
They would have done surgery and he would have recovered. Oh no, I
they probably would have just
Removed the bullet and closed it
I mean, it wasn't destructive in any sense that it hit a vital organ or it even broke a rib the whole
Information the whole report that are out there
The autopsy report that's that point they don't make sense from a medical standpoint from an anatomical standpoint
They just don't make sense. It's almost like they've been
Manipulated or spun? The real information is to lead someone to
Conclusion is not the truth. Is there anybody out there that is
Coming from the right place
morals values character integrity that is
Extremely motivated to one investigate this and want to do something about is there someone you know
That's out there wanted to get deeper in this topic or now if this is ever going to have a legal
solution and so forth it's going to have to come through the government and
Because they're the only one who can release the evidence what evidence is still there and see we still don't know, you know
I'm not allowed to see photographs that I was there when it that's amazing that amazes me
I'm not allowed to see the x-rays that I took pardon
How is that even possible that amazes me or any of those guys the enlisted guys?
Even Dennis or O'Connor or any of them still in contact with you. Are they still around?
Humes Boswell or any of them still around and that's what Lyndon wanted because he knew once everybody was gone
There's nothing that's gonna come back Trent Wow. That's right. And what year was the fifty years put on you? Oh, it was seventy-five
Seventy-five to 20 25 that's amazing. And by the way, they measured it they said you know is this
One of the things about Oswald is how long the distance was they said they brought 12 marksmen to test shooting it
While a target is movement 12 out of 12, they all hit the target. So it said it's not a target that
really needs somehow to be a
You know sniper to be able to hit it it wasn't that difficult of a target to hit but also of himself is an interesting
Character and Ruby died as well two years later
so he's not even around for some other to be investigate and say what do you connected to as a local nightclub owner or a
Restaurant owner. Well, you know my opinion if Oswald had lived they would have had
If the administration did reach out you to want to go deeper on this would there be an interest on on your line or no?
Sure, but I only have the information that I have. There's always an interest with this
So maybe if the right person sees this message, they're able to reach out and billions of people
This is not millions billions that people would like to know what happened here
There's too many unknowns that are not fully answered yet. And there's too many signs from credible sources that makes you question things
Well, I agree. Also, I'd like to know
Who what where and why I don't think in my lifetime I'll ever know but it would be you know
It'll be something I really would like. Well, you never know
You never know what happens that the part about you is from me on
Why I wanted to do this because bill contacted me says Pat, you know
Let's try to see if we can do something with you and Jim
I'm in a business of reading people because that's what I do for a living I run a business
I'm supposed to see who I'm doing business with and what I do for a living. There's nothing about you with a
motive to monetize and use this as a platform to make a
multi-million dollar contract book any that you come across as somebody that you're just trying to get to the bottom of it and
Investigate it because there's some unknowns and 50-plus years later
you've agreed to kind of talk about it a little bit more than before and so I
Don't I think there's something there the purpose of the book is to get the information out there, you know
I guess it has to do with my own mortality
It's just absolutely
unconscionable
That what's being taught in schools
now
It's not true, but it's accepted as part of history. Someone once said that history is written by the winner, and we definitely lost
Here the other one whoever controls the present controls the past some see whoever controls the present controls the future of a history
It says a lot
Well, this was great to kind of see the perspective of something was to happen
Which angle would have come from without being able to stand out there?
It would be
Impossible, but I can I can tell you the angle from the wound in the back. It actually went down at about
30 45 degree
Angles like oh like abyss. Yeah from the front. No, what's he like this one?
He got shot or was he straight with because he was he was going like this and then he got shaky
He got shot first in the throat. That's what his hands came up, but he did was hand came up
He went down like this and then he went back like this and this
And you can see the tissue stuff
And people say oh well half his brain was blown out. They don't understand that a brain
That's a very delicate type see once it's protected by them in energy even
in the skull there would have been a lot of
Nicola fication a lot of liquid there they were
Cause of the pressure of the bullet as the bullet energy created personal opinion
And he fractured all of the sides and then
we're excellent it blew the
loan out but as it passed through
and created pressure
Seen demonstration completely shooting watermelon. Yes. Yes. We just have we just shot that's interesting
we were we were at a place called drive tanks two weeks ago and I was on a tank when you're shooting stuff up and
I was shooting at
watermelons and a
Few pumpkins and I shot the pumpkin and the front is just a hole but the back is a blast right and the gentleman comes
Up and he says the best things and says this the front this is the back this the front this tabac
He says if you want to know exactly what this means it's what happened with JFK the same exact rhinology
So look if you're somebody who follows history, I'm sure you were fascinated by what we just saw here at the
Dealey Plaza, I am myself as somebody who was in the military, but you know what I'd like to do if you don't mind
Jim is obviously we're at the end here and the book that you wrote would William Law at the cold-shoulder of history
why don't you take a
Minute and tell us a little bit about what I'm going to get as a read if I read this book
I think you'll get a different perspective on the whole
JFK assassination, these are my memories of what I actually participated in concerning the brain. Dr
Boswell and I did did the
Body proper and what I observed from? Dr. Humes and and
Dr. Fink's examination of the head. We actually took three sets of x-rays
I
Actually helped Gerald Custer who was the x-ray tech placed the cassettes and moved the body and so forth for the first set of x-rays
He took him and when he came back, he brought an assistant with him
I think it'll it'll give the reader some thought but it also is going to
Require the reader to make some judgments on its own. It's gonna make you go and say
Really? Let me go look it up. No way and let me go google it which I think it's great
But that's you saying that's a great thing
Yeah, that's the purpose and I think that book does that if you're interested in that topic you your parents your kids anybody?
I'll go get the book gifted for somebody click on the link below to go buy the book and
If you haven't watched the interview, I did with Clint Hill. It was an interview done about two years ago
So click on a link over here. Are we gonna put the link for the interviews while down here a Clint Hill?
I suggest you go watch that as well with that being said Jim. Thank you so much for coming out truly
Thank you for your time and thanks
Thank you for your courage for wanting to open up and tell the story and as well as your service
