- [Rhonda]: Hello, everyone.
I'm sitting here in the wonderful city of
Amsterdam, in Netherlands,
with Professor Pierre Capel whom I met
yesterday because we were both giving a
talk at the Orthomolecular Medicine
Congress in Bussum. We immediately hit it
off and I found out that Pierre happens to
be an acquaintance of Wim Hof,
also known as the "Iceman," who many of
you may know of through Tim Ferriss
interview with Wim and also from the VICE
documentary on Wim and his cold and
breathing techniques.
I am very honored to have Pierre here.
He is an expert on many different subjects
including the science behind meditation,
how meditation changes our genes and our
brain, and the science behind enjoying
life in general. So I'd like to welcome
Pierre and maybe if you want to tell us a
little bit more about yourself.
- [Pierre]: Yes. Well,
first of all, thank you that I can talk in
this fantastic surrounding.
My name is Pierre Capel and I'm…the
official word is an emeritus professor,
but I'm just a man who loves science and
has now a little bit more time to do his
little hobbies than only running a lab
with more than 100 people.
My hobbies are science,
but science also connected to the joy of
life as what you just said because it is
incredibly important that we should not
only be active and creative,
but we also should be at ease that the
creation we want to find really has a good
background and not all this rush rush rush
rush rush and ah ah ah ah.
No, relax, and then the inspiration comes.
- [Rhonda]: I couldn't agree with you more
on that, you know, I recently have been
talking about some of the negative effects
of the stress and the chronic stress
response and how that literally ages
your DNA, it ages your brain.
- [Pierre]: Oh, absolutely. Well,
the point is that you have to make a
definition between very functional stress,
which is the natural stress,
which has a very big influence in survival
like animals do. So if there is a danger,
you should not go to bed,
and think about it, and write an article
but you have to run,
and fight, and do, and whatever.
So this stress response,
which people always know,
it's linked to adrenaline,
heartbeat, sweating,
power, that stress response is very good.
However, it's rather strong on your body.
So if you do that for a too long time,
it doesn't work. The other thing is the
chronic stress, which is not related to
danger but to stupid thoughts.
"Oh, worry, what's tomorrow?
Wow." That are all type of thoughts which
can make you uneasy and give a stress
response. However, there can also be a
type of stress which is very real and
chronic.
For example, a disease in your family.
If somebody has leukemia,
you can't say, "Okay,
relax or whatever." But if we're going to
talk about meditation,
which we will do in a moment,
what is the very strong point is that it's
chronic stress, which is outside your
competence to cope with it,
it is there, but what is the effect it
really has on your body that you can
influence? So the terrible disease is
there, 24/7 but it should not devastate
your life 24/7 but only 20 minutes,
poof, and that we're going to talk about,
or that we'll do.
- [Rhonda]: So what you're saying is,
in a way, if you have an event that is out
of your control, for example,
if someone in your family gets critically
ill, such as leukemia,
obviously, you can't control that.
- [Pierre]: No.
- [Rhonda]: It's going to happen,
and you are going to be affected
emotionally by that event.
But what you can control is how you
emotionally respond to that event and
whether or not you're going to ruminate,
and continue to have these negative
thoughts, and anxiety, and...
- Well, the anxiety and negative thoughts
you absolutely will have.
It's supernatural to float off the real
trouble, but that's not correct,
but there should be a period in the day
that you quit thinking,
and start feeling, and don't think about
tomorrow but go at this very moment and
try to get rid of thoughts,
breathing easily, quieting down and that's
a fun thing, you hardly will believe it.
But if you meditate 20 minutes a day,
you will change the use of hundreds of
genes in your body, and this change is a
positive one, and we will explain that
during this talk.
- [Rhonda]: So essentially, buffering the
negative effects of the stress with
something like meditation?
- [Pierre]: Yes. Also, physical exercise
is also very important. So in a lot of
psychiatric clinics, they just hang around
drinking some coffee, smoking cigarettes,
and doing absolutely nothing.
But if you let them do some physical work,
or walking, or swimming,
or whatever, that has a direct effect on
their psychological problems.
So, you have to stay active,
but you have to also contemplate proper
moment to get your harmony back,
which is disturbed by the outside
stressor.
- [Rhonda]: Yeah, so both exercise and
having that time to be mindful,
and meditate and be in the present moment,
they both serve important functions.
- [Pierre]: I would like to ask a question
to your audience if you don't mind.
Folks, you all have an agenda,
you all are busy,
you have all obligations,
you have to bring this here,
get that, do this and do that,
and this whole exercise,
we can summarize as your agenda.
Where are you in your agenda?
Where is your daily half-hour only for
yourself and not being busy with whatever?
If you really can answer that you have it,
then you are okay.
If not, you better think about it.
You are worth half an hour a
day for yourself. And that half hour,
if you do that properly,
really will have an effect.
- [Rhonda]: So I guess the answer,
if you say, "When I sleep…"
that doesn't count.
- [Pierre]: No. Sleeping is incredibly
important. Without sleep seven days
you'd die and sleep is a very active
process in which the mind is really
reprocessing, changing memory from this
side to that side, cleaning up
the hard-disk, so that's very important.
But emotionally, you have to be awake to
get rid of the negative thoughts,
and come to harmony for 10,
15 minutes, and that active process
changes the use of your DNA
and your genes. The inactive,
unconscious, sleeping is extremely
important but that will not have this
effect as meditation has.
- [Rhonda]: So if it can change the
expression of over 100 genes,
which means it can turn
genes on, turn genes off.
- [Pierre]: You can do that yourself.
- [Rhonda]: How quickly does that happen?
Is it immediate after meditating?
- [Pierre]: No, no, it's during.
I will give a little example that there
are a lot of measurements done with all
type of medical instruments of brain scans
in which you measure activity.
And if you put somebody in such a
surrounding, where you can measure brain
function, blood flow,
neurotransmitter production,
and whatever, then you are on real time.
And if these people start to meditate,
electrical activity,
and especially in this part of the brain,
changes within 30 seconds,
starts to change. Blood flow is changing
within 5 to 10 minutes.
And so even during meditation,
you already are resetting a lot
of basic functions. But if you don't mind,
I would like to give a little example
about because you said genes are changed,
and DNA, and whatever.
I would like to explain a little bit what
it really is. People always think that
DNA is something static,
if we have our DNA passport,
you know who you are.
Well, forget about it.
These 20,000 genes, which is not much,
are used in a special way together,
in a qualitative different way,
in a dynamic way, and it is so complex
that the description of the proteins you
have to, which are the 200,000, isn't
saying much but what are you using? The
point is this, that there is a technique
that you have a DNA chip in which you can
measure which gene is switched on and
which gene is switched off in a cell.
That chip you can buy commercially and in
an app, you can do the trick,
and it is type of dipstick and then you'll
see what is on and off.
There was a fantastic research program in
which they did this gene expression in
white blood cells for people who were
loners, socially isolated,
had no friends, no contacts,
and really felt lonely.
So not a person who wants to be alone and
is happy but the people who are really,
"Hmm, I'm so alone."
Compared to the same type of people with
income, age, disease background etc.,
and these two types of white blood cells,
you put a stick in this one,
put a stick in that one,
and then you have, heaven's sake,
a good computer program and then they
analyzed 10,000 genes and
see what's different.
In the case that somebody is lonely,
in that article was at least 209
elementary functions in life were changed
inside the immune system,
inside metabolism, hormone
levels, and whatever.
So the feeling of unhappiness changes a
whole use of hundreds of genes.
But the other way around,
happiness also changes an awful lot.
So a lot of stress is related with
unhappiness, or worry,
and sorrow but if you actively try to be
happy, enjoy your life,
not continuously, it is not a burgundy
type of living that only wine, women and
singing in the German's,
"Wein, Weib und Gesang," that is not what
I am aiming at. But if you are eternally
at ease with yourself,
that switches on and off genes.
It's not only with humans but a fantastic
experiments with rats and this rat strain
where the women are very susceptible to
breast cancer. So after certain period of
time, so many percent of the women have a
breast cancer, and that is the way it is.
Because rats are incredibly social
animals, if you isolate them and give them
the perfect room service,
Hilton quality, but alone in a cage,
they'll feel lonely.
What you see is that the tumor incidence,
which at the certain time is 20% in the
population goes to 80%.
The tumor size is 84 times bigger and it
starts to spread out in the
body, and metastasize.
How is that possible?
Only loneliness influences the effect how
the tumor develops.
Well, if the genes in the human is set
into 200 to 9, in the rat,
there's a similar setting going on.
If a protein is expressed,
which is absolutely a necessity for a
tumor to get out of the tissue and to go
into another tissue,
then it is metastasizing,
it's spreading.
If the protein is not expressed,
forget about it and leave.
But if that protein is under control of
the gene, which is under control of
loneliness, you influence your disease.
So having a harmonious life and really
feeling okay, actively try to find the
good things in life,
not by being blindfolded but actively
looking at it, really has a incredible
effects of health.
- [Rhonda]: With a tumor loneliness study
done in rats, that's incredible that they,
you know, increase the tumor chance by
60% and the tumor growth and metastasized,
was there any implications in terms of
what caused the,
you know, metastasis?
So was there, you know,
was there more cortisol or cortico
releasing hormone that increased factors
like VEGF or other angiogenic factors
which are known to cause
tumor and angiogenesis?
- [Pierre]: Yes. One of the explanations
is that VEGF, which is the vascular
endothelial growth factor,
which is a necessity to
form new blood vessels but also to
do the maintenance. The point is that a
tumor can actively produce VEGF that can
be stimulated by this loneliness.
So there is a much higher transcription
factor which is the regulator of a gene.
If that is up-regulated by loneliness,
then the genes which follow this
transcription factor will go up.
In this loneliness, you see that a very
important protein in DNA regulation is
called NF-kB, which is a factor which
switches on and off about 200 genes,
very strongly involved in the immune
response but also responsible for this
vascular growth factor.
So loneliness affects NF-kB,
affects the growth factor,
and if you go the other way around,
then if you take away the growth factor by
harmony then the VEGF goes down and a lot
of tumors have lousy vessels,
and start bleeding, and they become
necrotic and they shrink.
So it really is a funny effect.
- [Rhonda]: So there's really empirical
evidence that social isolation,
at least in the context of these animal
studies, literally increases the
inflammatory response via NF-kB.
That's really very interesting
and very important.
- [Pierre]: I will give you two funny
examples. One about wound healing.
If, in an animal situation,
an animal is wounded then whether is he
safe, or stressed, or whatever will affect
the speed of the healing of its injury.
And they did experiments with standardized
incision which had to heal in animals.
And depending, if they give extra nest
material and extra content by which he was
feeling better…
- [Rhonda]: Safe.
- [Pierre]: The wound healing…yes,
feeling more safe, the wound healing
increased incredibly,
was much faster. But the other example is
more in another effect which is coming not
really into meditation but a little bit.
There was a boy who was very often
severely ill in his younger age,
and he was laying in a room for days,
and days, and a lot of
pain, and trouble. But in the garland,
was a beautiful tree which he could see
through the window from his bed and it
always gave him mental
support, this tree. This tree was
supporting his misery.
Later on, this boy became a surgeon and
started to work I guess it was in Chicago,
I don't know which his town.
But in the wards, there was a long
corridor with rooms which patients were
treated. But along this stretch of rooms,
couple of them were looking to a concrete
wall and a couple of them were looking
into a park with trees.
So then he started to analyze,
for 12 years, all the documentation on
surgeries, the outcome of it,
how long, and how well did the patients
perform.
Guess what? The guys who were laying in
the room looking at the tree had less pain
medication, shorter hospitalization days,
we're doing better and whatever.
And the point is that,
if you look at something beautiful,
it's not only beautiful but it also really
works.
- [Rhonda]: Yeah, there's a study that
came out not too long ago, I didn't read
the whole study I just read the press
release, but it found that people that
took walks in nature versus, you know,
in a metropolitan city area,
had less clinical symptoms of depression,
anxiety. So they're both walking,
they're both getting exercise which we
know also has positive
benefits on depression.
However, something about being immersed in
nature had a much more significant
antidepressant effect which is a…
- [Pierre]: That's completely conceivable
ways with everything you can
see in this field.
- [Rhonda]: So I had a question in regards
to the wound healing and feeling safe
versus being stressed in the animal
studies that you were referring to.
I know that the stress response,
at least in terms of cortisol,
there's lots of things going on with the
stress response but it dampens
the immune response.
So it actually, you know,
your immune system doesn't get as
activated. Does that have something to do
with the delaying or prolonging the wound
healing response?
- [Pierre]: Absolutely. So cortisol is an
incredibly important hormone
and it's fluctuating through the day.
The official word is the
circadian rhythm, and it fluctuates,
and at night it's low and in day it's
high, etc., and it regulates a lot.
Every cell has a receptor on its membrane
for cortisol, or almost every cell,
and the complex of cortisol and receptor
goes into the nucleus,
and it's called a transcription factor
and regulates 20% of our genome.
So one in five genes is under control of
cortisol. So if you are stressed,
this rhythm is still there but this whole
fluctuation is elevated.
And genes are overexpressed in a stressful
situation or underexpressed because
cortisol can also switch these things off.
So best way to say it's bringing things in
this balance with strong effects.
So the stress response is not only
cortisol, is not only adrenaline,
but it's far more complex.
But the point is that this cortisol,
adrenaline, and all these stress hormones
do not only affect heartbeat,
or sweating, or anxiety but also
the immune system. The example is the
wound healing, which is under influence of
this stress response and changes whether
you feel okay or not,
but the immune system itself is making all
type of factors and hundreds of them,
who influence the central nervous system,
who influence your mood,
who influence depression,
psychosis, and whatever.
A very strong but sad example is that in
the early '70s, when gamma-interferon was
used as a therapeutic agent for a certain
type of cancer, the only effect was that
all these people who were treated ended up
psychotic in a psychiatry ward
because gamma-interferon influences the
immune system but also influences the
central nervous system.
That is an incredibly complex
interrelationship.
And all type of factors from inflammatory
reactions will affect your mind and vice
versa, your mind will affect
your immune system. And a very important
immunological starting component,
so the whole starting engine of the immune
system is called the inflammasome.
Inflammasome is a very old defense
mechanism in every cell,
what is living. And it is complex when
there is a danger or stress.
Individual proteins will come together,
form a complex, and will start
a defense reaction. In simple organisms,
they will only make this,
and that, and that factor,
and in our system, we have the same as in
plants and whatever,
but you get a whole cascade of reactions.
So if you trigger the inflammasome in the
bowel, it will trigger all these
inflammatory things which goes to the
brain and your gut flora is directly
linked through this inflammasome to
depression. But if you are a very healthy,
physically speaking and you are depressed,
factors from the central nervous system go
to the immune system.
They will start the inflammatory response
and you get a disease from
psychological stress factor.
So you cannot separate mind and body in
this. And there are interlinking elements,
many of them…and some are more important
than others, but the cortisol levels
influencing the immune system.
The immune system influencing the
central nervous system.
The central nervous
system influencing etc.
So you cannot oversimplify it but you can
really say mental problems will give
physical diseases, physical diseases will
give mental problems,
and vice versa.
- [Rhonda]: Absolutely. I 100% agree.
You mentioned the interferon causing
psychosis when they're using it to treat
cancer, I wasn't aware of that
study, very interesting.
- [Pierre]: That was long ago
when I was active.
- [Rhonda]: Oh, yeah. Well, you know,
there was a little more contemporary study
done where people were injected with
interferon gamma, which is
pro-inflammatory cytokine,
induces an immune response,
cause depression or depressive symptoms.
But what was fascinating in that study is
that there is a group that was given the
interferon, and there was a group that was
given interferon and the marine omega-3
fatty acid, eicosapentaenoic acid,
EPA, which is also anti-inflammatory.
They were given EPA with the interferon
and they did not get the symptoms of
depression. And of course,
many different ways in which inflammation
is affecting the brain through,
you know, this inflammasome which is very
interesting, I don't know much about it.
I know about the inflammasome,
but I don't know about the connection
between…directly how it's influencing the
brain. I do know that a lot of these
pro-inflammatory molecules and cytokines
can get into the brain and also the vagal
nerve connecting the gut to the brain.
But, you know, it's absolutely true people
that are obese, for example,
have type 2 diabetes.
Lots of different inflammatory-related
diseases are much more likely to also have
depression, and depression also leads to,
you know, there's cancer incidents that's
more common and a whole host of diseases.
But I kind of wanted to circle back and
ask you about the meditation and how the
meditation can specifically influence the
way you will respond to a stressful event
when it occurs.
Let's say, if someone practices meditation
for 20 minutes a day,
and then something very stressful happens
in their life, you know,
will they release as much cortisol as
someone who doesn't meditate or
is that known?
- [Pierre]: Well, there are a lot of
studies on all type effects of meditation
and also, as long as we stay in the immune
system, you can measure this
pro-inflammatory cytokines IL-6 or
whatever, and you directly influence
IL-6 by meditation, it goes down.
But before we go into the molecules and
the things, I think it's more important to
say what the real effect of meditation is.
Meditation is not something hocus pocus or
whatever, but the point is this,
that all the stimuli,
from the outside world,
come into our life via our senses: our
nose, eyes, and ears,
but are handled by the limbic system in
the brain. That is what popularly is
between the ears, it's in the middle.
That is a very effective complicated part
of the brain which is almost,
well, unconscious.
It's reacting immediately and it's where
your feelings and all type of things are.
The conscious part what they cut is saying
that is why we are, we think so,
therefore as you see the cortex, but
the cortex is developed in a very short
period of time in evolution from normal
cortex to little neocortex in the human
being and so the hardware is not so good.
So the emotional development of the brain,
the limbic system, was a very
slow process in which hundreds
of different areas work together.
One is for pain and fear,
the amygdala, and the other one is for
this and that for that.
And so you have this whole complex system
and you have this cortex where your motor
neurons are, that you can move your
hands consciously etc.
However, the thinking is beautiful,
and we can do fantastic things with our
conscious thinking but the way back from
the cortex to our feelings from…so our
cognitive functions and our emotional
functions the hardware is not so good.
So if somebody is afraid of a spider,
you can talk whatever you want but
they are afraid. You cannot control the
fear of spiders, if you have it,
with thinking or talking.
It doesn't work, a tiny bit
but not really. So what we see is that
emotions and conscious thinking are
separate areas in the brain where the
consciousness part has concerning for the
neurological anatomy not a proper
influence on the emotions.
The emotions will dominate the thinking
and not the vice versa.
Well, selling cars is based on that every
ad is going for the emotions and then you
will stop thinking. Okay,
but what is now the trick of meditation?
Meditation is that you will come back to
the activity of your limbic system,
so where your emotions are,
and disconnect it with thinking.
And is disconnecting with thinking is
incredibly important because the thinking
almost always disturbs the balance of the
emotions. If you think that tomorrow is a
problem, in the amygdala there will be a
reaction and the whole neural system will
get fear and anxiety or whatever.
However, there is no tomorrow,
you are here. Perhaps tomorrow is not.
It is your only invention that tomorrow
will be devastating.
You will make it devastating.
Perhaps it's true but you can only say
so if tomorrow becomes today,
so we sit here. If we focus on our
emotions here at this very moment and
don't think what will happen or what has
happened, then you've got the normal
balance of all the neurotransmitters
signaling inside the limbic system,
and because it's such an old system,
it's rather harmonious.
You can lean on it. It's okay.
But if we think about tomorrow,
you get a disturbance.
And the only thing what meditation is
doing is not changing your life.
It doesn't make it better but this
tomorrow, and this space-time feeling but
also the ego-feeling,
I am afraid…if you disconnect that and
that is a very simple way to do that
because the connection between emotions
and consciousness are rather weak.
So multitasking they say you can do but
how many things you really can multitask?
If there is a lot of this,
and that, and that, and that,
you can only handle little thing.
So if you concentrate on something which
is not thinking, for example,
breathing, you concentrate your airflow in
the nose, calmed, out,
and really concentrate on it,
you don't have much base of solving a
mathematical problem anymore because…and
then if you concentrate where the airflow
goes through the...and just close your
eyes, and then have a little music,
and then all of a sudden you stop
thinking, and you stop losing the
time-space feeling. You are…you get a
function of being instead of going off
whatever, and that is what
meditation is doing.
But as soon as this limbic system comes
into the harmonious things,
it really controls a lot of stress
responses, a lot of hormones,
a lot of cortisol, a lot of whatever,
but also transcription factors including
NF-kB. So if you meditate,
your immune system is different.
If you meditate, your stress
response is different.
And if you meditate regularly,
then you have a very fundamental change,
a positive one, which
really becomes constant.
So there are studies in which they measure
activity in the left prefrontal cortex,
that is this part of the brain.
Normally, it's a 50-50 activity left and
right. But with meditation,
it shifts a little bit to the left,
and the left part is more the harmonious,
well-being, feeling okay instead of the
troublesome on the right.
And this shift and you'll make new
neuronal connections,
new nerve cells are being made,
gives you a really constant feeling
of emotional stability.
And you can measure the number of brain
activities at different levels after seven
weeks of meditation and you'll see
a fantastic change. It'd be positive.
- [Rhonda]: Wow. Yeah. I remember reading
a study where people that had never
meditated before were trained to meditate
for eight weeks and they had changed,
like, five regions of their brain. They
had decreased the amygdala which is part
of the limbic system.
They decreased the activity of it and
increased parts of the prefrontal cortex.
Perhaps it was the left region,
I don't remember.
- [Pierre]: Oh, that's hard
details, but…
- [Rhonda]: Yeah.
- [Pierre]: No, it's true and so the
amygdala, which is part of the fear,
and pain, and trouble sensing organ,
it's really changing in size and function.
- [Rhonda]: And you're saying that doing
this long-term meditation has lasting
effects and so then one would predict
that then, you know, not only are you not
going to continue to ruminate on the
future the things you have to do.
I mean, to a certain extent obviously
setting goals and having goals you want to
achieve is a good thing but when it
becomes so overwhelming…
- [Pierre]: It becomes obsessive and 24/7,
and you're absolutely wrong.
A goal is fantastic but at this very
moment, we are sitting here,
I have zero goals. Only to be here,
to enjoy your presence,
to talk about the things I like,
look at the flowers,
that is my life now.
- [Rhonda]: Do you practice meditation?
- [Pierre]: Yes.
- [Rhonda]: Do you do it on a daily basis?
- [Pierre]: Yes.
- [Rhonda]: How long?
- [Pierre]: Well, about 20 minutes.
I made some music compositions of a full
type of meditative things and of about 20
minutes. And so, when the music
stops, I stop. You always go along with it
also five minutes later
than you…oh, yeah.
- [Rhonda]: And does your meditation focus
on the breathing aspects?
- Well, the point is that with meditation
a lot of people think that it is
you really have to go into a zen
mood, and your third eye,
and chakra, this or the whatever,
that's absolutely not necessary.
Everybody should just do whatever…you do
not have to sit in the lotus position.
If you feel like it,
you do it but you can walk,
you can sit, you can lay down.
And the only thing is you'll have to
concentrate on something by which you do
not think. I had very heavy times
emotionally, by which I had a lot of
stress. I turned gray in three months and
from a slim boy, I changed into a fat
belly person within half a year,
with the same eating.
So my whole metabolism was changed by
stress which is called the metabolic
syndrome. I didn't know exactly what it is
but in those days, it was difficult to get
grip on your life, people dying,
and little children,
and problems, and really heavy.
So I went to a place which…if you have
time you should do that.
It's called the Kröller-Müller Museum in
Holland, it is a national park in which
there are hundreds of bikes for free.
So you go in, you take a bike,
you go through the forest, the fields,
[inaudible] fields. You see deer walking.
And then after this nature experience,
you come in the most beautiful museum
where Van Gogh is hanging,
and beautiful Mondrian and whatever.
And in those days when I really had some
trouble, I went there,
sitting in front of a picture,
which I liked, and just looking at the
picture for 20 minutes and then I could
cope with it again.
So, in very stressful situations,
you really have to meditate.
Now I have a happy life and I still like
to meditate but the urge of it,
especially if you are in trouble,
is incredibly big you get a lot of power
out of it.
- [Rhonda]: Yeah.
- [Pierre]: And how you do it,
if you look at the picture,
and look at nature, look into floating
water, fireplace…
- [Rhonda]: Yeah. You called it my
meditation moods.
I've been wanting to meditate again
and practice it on a daily basis.
It's one part of my life that I'm really
actively trying to incorporate something
new, and I used to when I lived in
San Diego many years ago before,
about 10 years ago.
I'm from San Diego but I grew up,
you know, surfing and I was able to
meditate while I was sitting on my
surfboard looking at the waves coming in
because I didn't care about anything else,
because all I needed to think about was
right now that wave coming.
One, so it doesn't wipe me out and make me
drowned, and two, because I wanted to
catch one and have this
fun ride in.
- [Pierre]: Yeah, so meditation is just
coming to the current situation now,
no time, just be. And that can be on a
wave board, that can be on a bicycle,
that can be on the top of a mountain, that
can be anywhere, it can be in a museum,
and it can…so there is not a strict rule
in meditation and a lot of people make a
lot of fuss about it how it should be,
but it is stop
thinking, start being.
- [Rhonda]: I really like that definition.
I really like that definition of it.
You were mentioning,
when you're talking about the meditation
and the breathing techniques,
and it reminded me of some of Wim Hof's
methods of, you know,
breathing and there's some cold shock.
I've been very interested in the effects
of good types of stress on the body.
So we've been talking about bad stress,
chronic stress, but there's also youth
stress, good stress.
- [Pierre]: Oh, absolutely.
- [Rhonda]: So maybe we could dive in a
little bit because I know that you're very
interested in some of the mechanisms
and the science behind how cold
and how these certain
breathing techniques can change different
hormones, you know, the endocrine
system, immune system.
- [Pierre]: Oh, it changes a lot.
The point is that first of all,
Wim Hof is a very charming man with a lot
of stamina and a lot of charisma,
and he really know how to talk to people,
to convince them that they have to do what
they think they should not do,
like, going into an ice bath.
Everyone who just thinks,
"I'm going into the ice," it's a little
strange but he convinces,
"Please do it." And the weird thing is
that people like it,
and get a positive effect,
and they say, "Hey, how? Why?"
Well, if you go unprepared into
ice-cold water, zero degrees Celsius or
whatever it's in Fahrenheit,
you'll have a lot of pain.
You'll get a lot of trouble,
a lot of anxiety. It is terrible,
don't do it.
However, Wim is training people and they
do it and they like it.
What is the training?
The training is…it has two components.
First of all, a meditation type of things,
so you really have to come at ease,
and really try to get rid of all the
surrounding stress, and then do
this breathing technique.
The breathing technique itself,
you do about 20 minutes,
it's a type of meditation in itself,
but also a breathing technique.
So why not have a double-edged sword?
And this breathing technique,
he really specialized in such a way that
you change the content of carbon dioxide
in your blood and you lower it.
Carbon dioxide is acidic in water and if
it's out of the bloodstream and the tissue
or at least less then the pH is less
acidic but more alkaline.
In the normal situation the acid-alkaline
balance, which is called pH,
the strict balance is pH 7 and our body is
7.4, that is our regular situation.
In the stomach, it's very acidic and
intense, so there is a little difference
in the body but let's say 7.4,
that is our body equivalence of
alkaline and acid. By this breathing
technique and pumping out a lot of carbon
dioxide, and having periods in not
breathing, heavy breathing,
and, well, he can tell people how to do
it, you change your pH.
And now comes a little trick,
that in his training,
that type of breathing raises the pH
sometimes to 7.7, 7.8 and for biology that
is a lot.
- [Rhonda]: Yeah, and this is published,
and this...
- [Pierre]: And it is published.
It's scientifically measured and whatever
but we go now back to this terrible cold.
If you go, you'll always have an ID of the
temperature of your surrounding and for
that, you have a whole family of
receptors, thermal sensors,
and there's a whole family.
And for each temperature range you have a
separate set of family members who are
telling you what the temperature is.
So if it is above 50 degrees Celsius,
rather hot, you will burn.
So if you touch something which is very
hot, yah, immediately.
You can't react differently,
you can't keep it on and say,
"Mmm, it smells."
You don't. But if it is 37 degrees you
say, "Mmh, nice."
And so, for each temperature range,
is a family of temperature sensors which
are proteins, which are doing things,
and they do not only measure temperature
but also mechanical stress.
And so if you feel something,
this touch, you feel it's metal,
it's colder, it's this,
that is this whole family of things.
One of the family members is effective
beyond 17, Celsius, so cold.
And because our body temperature doesn't
want to be lowered, this cold surrounding
is aggressive, we should avoid it.
So you get a active stress response,
"Get out of the cold and now."
That is this receptor telling you.
However, he is not alone because if you go
in this cold water, it's painful.
It's argh, it hurts,
and you get a very strong anxiety response
and, "I have to get out,
ooh, aah," and that's so dominating that
it really can cause you a lot of
trouble, heart attack.
So if you go into ice-cold water,
you are really in trouble,
the body is telling you that.
However, pain, anxiety,
and temperature, they are all combined in
this skinny-dipping in the cold water.
But biologically, they are separate units.
And normally, the thermal sensor tells you
it's cold and his job,
of this thermal sensor,
is telling you, "Hey,
switch on the heat. Burn your brown fat.
Generate calories like hell.
Make energy, energy,
energy, and temperature should not drop.
So burn everything we have to keep your
body temperature constant."
That is the function of this receptor,
but it is coupled to pain receptor.
So you cannot just sit in the water and
say, "Oh, nice. I'm changing my
metabolism," you're in pain.
But now we come to the pain receptor,
which is another one,
and there's also family of receptors
and the trichocyst. It is a protein in the
membrane and as a single protein
it's doing nothing. But if three of these
proteins combine into a trimer,
so three proteins together in a certain
conformation, then they will signal,
and that signal is pain.
Normal situation, like we are sitting
here, let us say that 5% of our pain
receptors are in an active state.
So if I do this, well,
I feel it but it doesn't hurt.
However, if I have a big wound here and I
do this, then we got trouble with the
neighbors because I'd shout too loud,
because then there's now 5% is on but
everything is in the trimer position and
generates a pain signal.
So a pain signal has a volume switch,
it can be low, it can be high but it is
dependent on a lot of things,
also inflammation, but also of pH.
And at pH 7.7, the pain receptor is a
monomer.
- [Rhonda]: So it's off.
- [Pierre]: It's out, so no pain,
but the same receptor is also in the
amygdalae giving fear and pain,
but also in the spinal cord and all
over your body. So all of a sudden,
you don't feel pain,
don't feel anxiety but the temperature
receptor, which normally gives you pain
and such, is doing now the job by himself
only. Generates an incredible amount of
adrenaline, gives you energy you won't
believe, burns your fat like hell,
and Wim Hof is able to sit for two hours,
or 1 hour and 58 minutes,
or something like that,
to be precise, in ice-cold water without
is a significant change in body
temperature. Why? Because his thermal
sensor is heating up and burning the brown
fat, "Come on, boys," and afterwards,
you're going change the white fat into
brown fat, which is…the brown feathers in
this area of your body and so you
regenerate that. And so if you come into
the cold, you get a fantastic amount of
energy, you get this strong stress
response without pain and fear,
and then you can walk up a mountain
in a short time.
- [Rhonda]: What's the name of the thermal
receptor, do you know? [inaudible]
- [Pierre]: Yes, that is transient
potential the TP...
- [Rhonda]: Oh, one of the TPV or RV?
- [Pierre]: Yeah, the TPV.
- [Rhonda]: Yeah, I know, it okay.
- [Pierre]: That's a whole family.
I don't know, I always forget the name.
- [Rhonda]: So it's responding
to the cold and…
- [Pierre]: And there are also receptors
which is responding to heat and whatever.
- [Rhonda]: Right, yeah, I have so many
questions, but one is the importance
between coupling the breathing technique,
which then decreases the carbon dioxide in
the blood, and as a consequence raises…
- [Pierre]: Switches off the pain.
- [Rhonda]: Right, but it raises the blood
pH to a little more alkaline,
which by the way is not easy to do.
Usually you can't just raise your pH in
your blood but breathing techniques
obviously it's working and that's been
published, and that then switches off,
the pain receptor, which needs
to be trimerized. So it's now not able to
do that because the pH is too high.
So that's uncoupling now the pain receptor
from the thermal receptor,
which somehow, I know that UCP1,
the uncoupling protein,
which norepinephrine is called,
releases norepinephrine and that activates
uncoupling protein 1,
which then uncouples your mitochondria.
So your mitochondria usually are sensing,
you know, the electrochemical gradient and
when that becomes uncoupled,
the mitochondria go,
"Oh my God, I need to make energy."
So they're basically burning all the
energy, like you said,
to generate heat and to also make energy.
- [Pierre]: ATP.
- [Rhonda]: ATP, so you end up burning fat
like you said, and that this is all really
cool because I was, for one,
changing the pH of the blood,
I was a little skeptical of that until I
actually read the study and how,
you know, carbon dioxide in the blood can
do that. I think there's a term for it
like "respiratory alkalosis" or something
like that.
- [Pierre]: Yeah. You can name it whatever
yeah, but the point is it's functional.
- [Rhonda]: Yeah, yeah. Have you tried any
of the breathing techniques?
- [Pierre]: Well, no. Not in that sense
but I have a little story.
I know a guy who was doing
this for the first time and he didn't take
this breathing so serious.
So I said, "Wow," I said,
"Okay," and in the meantime wandering
around and then hopped into the cold water
that was extremely unpleasant.
And then the second time,
he really was aware.
"Hey, I should take it serious," his
breathing and then he had no trouble.
So this is control in itself.
So the breathing technique is really
necessary to prepare for this cold and
this cold will, after uncoupling of all
the other effects, will have the positive
stress response in metabolism,
adrenaline, and etc.
- [Rhonda]: Without the pain?
- [Pierre]: Without the pain.
- [Rhonda]: So you can withstand
the cold for longer.
- [Pierre]: Yes, yes.
- [Rhonda]: I've been very interested
in the effects of temperature
on the human physiology.
I've talked a lot about the sauna and how
the sauna is a good hormetic stress,
it activates heat shock proteins which
have a variety of positive effects.
It also changes brain function as well.
It changes the opioid system,
endorphins, makes you more sensitive to
them, so I became very interested in that.
But cold more recently I became interested
because there was a paper that was
published in Nature last January,
where researchers took mice and exposed
them to about 4 degrees Celsius for 45
minutes, cased their core body
temperature, so unlike Wim,
their core body temperature dropped from,
you know, 98.6 to about 65 degrees
Fahrenheit, so very in hypothermia almost
but what was very interesting is that the
cold shock…there's a whole class of
proteins called cold shock proteins that
are activated by the cold and one of them
specifically is in the brain and at the
dendritic spine region of neurons,
and it increases dramatically in the cold.
And what's really interesting is that what
the function of this protein is,
is RBM3, is to regrow lost synapses.
So hibernating animals,
bears, for example, you know,
some hibernating rodents,
when they go into hibernation,
they lose a significant amount of their
synapses. I forgot, like,
30% or 40% or something like that.
But when they come out of the hibernation,
they regrow the synapses that they lost,
which has huge implications,
of course, for neurodegenerative disease,
brain aging in general.
So this is kind of what instigated the
study because they found that what happens
is upon hibernation they have this huge
increase in this gene brain,
RBM3, and that regulates re-growing the
synapses. So that's when I became very
interested in the cold,
and then started reading about it,
and all the effects on the endocrine
system, or the nephron, burning
of the metabolism. And now I'm very
interested in some of the techniques that
Wim's doing and the science behind what's
going on. So I'm really excited to have
you talk about it. But you wanted to talk
about a couple of other interesting
effects on the same family of receptors?
- [Pierre]: Yes, and then we don't go
so bizarre as in the heat, or in the cold,
or whatever but we just go to this family
of receptors, which,
the family name is TRP and then you have
uncle M and aunty V and so the whole
family is RTPV1 or M,
etc. The question is that you have a
measurement of each type of temperature by
each family member, but now the question
is why in the tropics people eat so spicy?
A lot of hot peppers?
The point is that a compound with a
beautiful name in the red pepper,
is binding to one of these family members
which senses heat, not the extreme heat,
not 50, but so around 40 degrees Celsius
or so, around 100 Fahrenheit.
What it's doing that pepper stimulates
this receptor, so the receptor is saying,
"You are too hot."
- [Rhonda]: Capsaicin, is that
specifically what you mean?
- [Pierre]: Yes. That is the name but the
receptor senses, "Hey, it's hot,"
and is reducing your body temperature
to neutralize the effect
of the outside temperature.
So you lower your body temperature by
spicy food. But if you're in the tropics,
you will be heated up by the sun.
And if I go, as a westerner not,
well, I like spicy food,
but I haven't done it,
and I'm sweating and then you have this
really white man's burden in the tropics.
You know that? Well,
sorry. But, yes, if you have spicy food,
you lower your body temperature,
the sun is raising it but to the normal
level you want. You don't have to sweat to
get rid of the extra temperature because
you set your thermostat lower,
so that is what the hot pepper is doing.
Now the other way, the cold receptor,
if you have a cold, you have all these
type of things that you wrap your breast
with menthol,
or eucalyptus, etc. The point is that
compounds from these plants binds to
the cold receptor. So as soon as you wrap
in your chest, it feels cold,
because you sense cold,
like the pepper, you feel hot,
but that temperature receptor is not only
making more energy and whatever but
changing the blood flow.
So the blood flow increases in this area
where you put menthol or eucalyptus and
you generate heat. So first it's cold and
then it really gets you warm because you
pump up the fire by this plant extract.
And the trick with cold,
why it's so good, and very simple and you
don't need further medication because you
can do it yourself is what is
a common cold? If I'm for 10 minutes
outside and unprotected and if you call
tomorrow, I'm ill. How's it possible?
The point is that this illness is already
there, but I can cope with it.
So you have a rhinovirus or whatever
cause of my common cold and my immune
system is coping with it.
So let's say I have 100 units of immunity
which have to fight to 80 units of a viral
or whatever infection.
So the immune system dominates the
infectious agent and this is a continuous
process. Now I go 10 minutes into the
cold, the blood flow changes because the
cold gives vasoconstriction,
so you have less blood.
So my 100 units per time can't reach that
place and become 75.
"Hey," says the virus,
puff, and because that goes very fast,
half a day or a day later,
you have a common cold.
So if you now put on some menthol or
eucalyptus, by increasing the blood flow
and giving a lot of energy,
and raising the temperature,
then the immune system comes back with
much more units per time than the 100 and
can cope with it, and so therefore these
simple things from plants
have a very strong effect.
- [Rhonda]: I never knew there was
actually any validity behind putting
menthol or eucalyptus oil.
- [Pierre]: But you feel cold,
ah, cold, and puh,
warm, and aah.
- [Rhonda]: I don't remember, like,
you know, it's been so long.
I was a kid. I think my mom put it on my
chest when I was sick but,
you know, just it's been decades since
I've done it, so I don't
remember feeling warm.
- [Pierre]: Well, you can do it now.
- [Rhonda]: I don't know, maybe.
Yeah, kind of a burning feeling.
- [Pierre]: Yeah.
- [Rhonda]: So, okay, let me ask you this
then why when you go out in the cold don't
you have the same response? So,
obviously, there's vasoconstriction
occurring, how come there's not a response
then also similarly to that increase the
blood flow after or is there?
- [Pierre]: Well, the point is that if you
go into the real cold, like Wim is doing,
you switch on full-blown,
all the engines to pump up the fire.
But if I walk out here and I go from room
temperature to a little lower,
I don't have this family member which is
reacting at minus 17.
My throat is getting minus 24.
So I don't activate the receptor Wim is
using which pumps up the whole thing.
- [Rhonda]: Oh, I see.
- [Pierre]: And I do with menthol,
I go to the low temperature receptor,
which I pump up into activity.
So a decrease in temperature from 37 to
28, so in your fingers,
it's going to be 28 or so.
That doesn't switch on the receptor which
Wim is using in the cold bath,
so you have to go much further.
So if you go into the ice bath,
you immediately trigger the subsequent
response. If you just walk outside and
you are just chilly or whatever,
you do not have the proper family member
of the receptor being activated.
- [Rhonda]: So we need to also be happy
when we go outside, when it's cold,
because being happy also regulates our
response to this virus and whether or not
we're going to fight it off?
- [Pierre]: Hopefully, yeah, and so it is
really important to have
a positive view on life.
And there are a lot of studies of people
who are optimistic or pessimistic and that
really makes a difference statistically in
how they cope with diseases,
life expectancy, the number of days
without disease, that is directly related
to a positive or a negative
attitude to life.
- [Rhonda]: Smell the flowers.
- [Pierre]: Beautiful.
- [Rhonda]: And look at them.
- [Pierre]: Oh, yeah, but if we talk
about smell, what an effect that has?
- [Rhonda]: Oh, yeah.
- [Pierre]: You know, falling in love
is based on smell.
- [Rhonda]: I didn't know that.
- [Pierre]: You didn't?
- [Rhonda]: No.
- [Pierre]: Oh, wow.
- [Rhonda]: Pheromones?
- [Pierre]: No. No, no, no. The point is
that falling in love always has to do with
sexuality and procreation from nature's
side, let's say it that way.
So if somebody wants a partner and wants
children, they want to know if they are
okay and if the genes are really properly
fitting. A lot of genes are the same,
so a gene for insulin-making is the same
in all people but are also genes which are
extremely different,
polymorphic, and so many forms,
polymorphic, which is especially in the
immune system. Each individual has a
different immune system.
Each has an individual set.
For that complexity,
you have proteins which are the major
histocompatibility complex MHC or HLA
transportation antigens etc.,
they differ from person to person.
And I am, for example,
have a immunological setting, say,
that I have no trouble with malaria,
no trouble with yellow fever,
but I cannot handle influenza.
Now I meet…will encounter a woman who also
can handle yellow fever,
also malaria, and cannot cope with
influenza. If we mate,
that is a pity, that a child has nothing
new. So I have to find someone who copes
with influenza and I give a damn about
yellow fever because that are my genes,
so I want to know the gene passport.
Animals are doing that,
if you walk your dog they immediately
sniff and the olfactory system in the nose
is extremely fantastic and is highly
polymorphic. So everybody has an odor
smell perception, therefore you have all
this racist things that the whole group
of people smell. Well,
no, my perception is genetically different
from theirs, so I'm stinking for them and
vice versa because each nose is different.
Okay, back to the immunology.
It is important to give the child as many
defense possibilities as possible.
For mathematical reasons,
you cannot have a total immune system
fighting everything because then you are
included, and that includes autoimmunity.
So the immune system is defense against
the outside minus myself,
and I should not turn to myself.
But to make a long story short,
these vital molecules,
which are different in each individual,
are being chopped up in little peptides
and secreted by all type of body fluids
which are in the armpits,
and between the legs,
and in all the sexual organs,
and sweat, there they are secreted.
And as soon as you smell them,
you know, how the immune system of the
other person is.
And so, therefore, you come into the area
that smell is an important thing for a
genetic selection with whom you'll have to
mate. Certain type of fish,
all fish, doing that swimming together,
exchanging smell. If that's okay then the
wife…the woman puts her eggs down and can
be fertilized by the man.
If not, she's not putting any eggs down,
he has to go. Dogs, and people,
and mice, you name it,
all type of studies.
So therefore, smell is important and then
you come to the thing and I don't know...
The American population is always,
you can't talk about things too much but
let's talk about pubic hair.
That's not there for protection or worm or
whatever, holy bolly,
it's warm enough. And the children don't
have it because they are not sexually
active. So as soon as you become sexually
active, you have to distribute your smell,
your little molecules,
as much as possible.
So you need a big surface.
So therefore, in the areas where a lot of
these molecules are secreted,
you've got a lot of hair to increase the
surface and to select.
And it is impossible to make love from
somebody whose smell you don't like.
That doesn't mean that there is a strong
smell, it can be stinky like hell,
but you still like it. And if you
don't like it, forget about it.
- [Rhonda]: That is really fascinating.
First of all, I had no idea that you
secreted the immuno-histocompatibility
compounds.
- [Pierre]: You chopped it up.
You chop them as little peptides.
- [Rhonda]: And you secrete them
in your sweat and other bodily fluids.
- [Pierre]: Oh, I think we can
go for a long time.
- [Rhonda]: I know. This has been
a very interesting conversation, Pierre.
I really, really enjoyed talking with you.
We have a lot of common interests.
If people are more interested in hearing
or learning more about what you are
researching, or the talks you give,
or anything about you,
is there a place where they can find you
on the interwebs?
- [Pierre]: Well, I do have a website
which is the first three Ws
and then Meditation to Go,
but in society I do not actively
support so much, it's still okay.
I'm now working at another one which will
be pierrecapel.nl and there is my activity
on meditation, but also on science,
but also how you incorporate quantum
mechanics into biology,
and things like that.
But that is now under construction so,
please wait. But for your audience,
I really want to say,
why don't you take half an hour for
yourself per day? What is so important in
the outside world that you keep on
running, "Oh, I have to do this.
Oh, and..."
Where are you in this situation?
Please, make this choice for yourself,
half an hour a day keeps more than only
the doctor away.
