My next choice, there's a strand called
hard talk and it's an interview with
Peter Singer who is regarded by some as
the world's most dangerous philosopher
and he's kind of a hate figure for the
disability community but is a hero in
other areas he has very strict
utilitarian views
can I just do a slight footnote
utilitarianism is is the outlet the
theory of the greatest good for the
greatest number so in the film when you
are trekking across the desert and that
one of yous got a leg injury and they so
don't want without we a utilitarian
would say that's a very good idea we
will go on to that because you're
slowing us down this better for the bulk
of us to benefit and can we have your
can we have your food rations and we can
we eat you orient you so that's what is
it about the majority yes being happy
yes so what's interesting about this to
me is that so i started making this
documentary about Down syndrome testing
and I went into it very naively games
you mean down syndrome tested in
pregnant women pregnant okay yes
yeah let's say we've got a kind of arms
race on to find more and more
sophisticated techniques to identify
dancing during the wing when there's
nothing you can actually do to help the
baby in the womb the only thing you
would do on receiving the diagnosis
really is terminate so he then he's
questioned about his attitude towards
the disabled and he believes along with
a lot of other people think it's
worrying to me is that these are the
people here are advising governments
they believe that if we talk about
infants that a disabled child this is no
difference between the embryo and the
child at the age of three and so you
want to be able to not only terminate
throughout pregnancy but also kill no
one has a right to life
he says so you want to be able to kill
the an infant with a disability up to
the age of three and
yeah it's just you know I find this
incredibly hard to handle it so when I
first started making the documentary I
was what we just need to know i have
chartered seventies I was sort of well
you know everyone's equal right I
thought we all agreed that but the
minute I started meeting ethicists i
discovered that nobody thinks we're
equal anymore and actually Peter Singer
is proposing that there are there are
human beings who are not persons uses
the term person to mean someone who has
what he believes is the adequate amount
of self-knowledge and he believes that
there are animals who are persons who
have enough self-awareness and knowledge
and desire to live to be categorized as
worthwhile and human beings who are not
ok so let's have a look at a Peter
Singer they're talking about life i
think the sanctity of life is a
religious doctrine that has no defense
ability at side particular religious
views for example the idea that all
humans are made in the image of God or
that all humans have an immortal soul or
that God has commanded us not to kill i
don't think it's an idea that otherwise
is justified and has no place in the
public debate
well I mean I don't reject people
mentioning it but I think if they
mentioned that they should be challenged
they should be asked why do you think
that a member of the species Homo
sapiens just because they're member of
that species has a right to life that
for example a nonhuman animal let's say
the gorilla who was shot in Cincinnati
Zoo last week does not have even though
the gorilla has far more self-awareness
far more ability to form relationships
with others than a member of the species
Homo sapiens with a very severe brain
damage I would say that the there are
three main points to Peter thing as
argument in in this interview and it's
and give more money to charity killed
the severely disabled and be nice to
animals
yeah and i think it was meatloaf who
said
two out of three ain't bad no I think
that that middle one seems out of place
doesn't the other very very kind ones
Peter Singer I think he's saying that if
you kill the severely disabled to be
bumping brutal but that's the that's
what he's saying then the money you
spend on keeping them alive and all the
stuff that you need to do for someone
who in his opinion has no quality of
life could be spent on people who you
could lift them to it today effort a
good life
I mean if its business else thought that
Hitler and he practiced on the disables
I'm gonna cry don't cry
have you seen the hard to locate
learning to be released now it's going
to go on please
it's all right to cry you won't be the
first i've cried on the show I honestly
I'm really i have yeah just yeah I mean
it's what this I think it's just not for
him to say I mean it's really
interesting because it's kind of you
know it does kind of make sense until
you're the person who's been put outside
the circle and I actually feel through
being the parent of a disabled child
myself that I went into that parenting
experience believing that independence
was a sort of high goal and I've come
out of it going you know what it's
really not as important as all that
interdependence is much higher much much
higher you know being able to interact
and relate with other people and and
actually seeing my son only go through
life and bring this wake of kindness out
of people you know if you could say to
somebody you're going to have a child
who will and magically bring about
social cohesion will bring a joy and
encourage all the people around him or
her not to take life too seriously who
will enjoy simple things in life he will
literally do a dance if this ice cream
in the freezer
who is able to enjoy you know is able to
enjoy life and that that's a whole new
value system isn't it as a whole new way
of assessing what is or isn't valuable
you know in Denmark there it's a it's a
government goal to be down syndrome free
by 2020 down syndrome Freeman is a
government goal
whereas for me this is you know dancer
knows it so you know it feels like a
cultural race this is not something i
can separate from my son
it's not like cancer that something that
happens it's not a disease
it's not something that interferes with
his happiness he doesn't suffer and yes
it is the government agenda to eliminate
him and people like him
what would say about this and I sound
facetious but it isn't when I'm talking
about that group of people walking
through the desert in all movies and and
the injured one says go on without me it
makes absolute sense to go on without
him but they never do
and there's a reason they never do and
it's basically people feel that it's
wrong to do it even though when you're
watching it
of course the group will be better off
with that is that the person but in fact
what you want to see is them love in
that person and caring for that person
thinking you know what we're gonna yeah
we're going to risk at we're gonna put
ourselves on the line we're gonna make
things more difficult for us but we
don't want to be part of a group where
we walk away from the guys got that's
what i think that i have understood
things I would never hope to understand
i've had edges not off me that really
needed to come off
I think what you might be thinking about
certainly is love anything I think love
and science don't always mix yeah that
well but it's interesting how people
should watch this and see what they
think and is calm logic is hard to fault
it's very tricky
ok we'll look it's been a very something
like that has won all really interested
in I think people should should
definitely check about okay thank you
very much planning thank you lovely to
see you
the CT so we have been discussing funny
valentines bill bailey love song hardtop
peter singer and iron maidens the female
fighters and if you'd like to see Sally
Phillips documentary world without downs
it will be on bbc2 Sue and I will
definitely be watching
