Next up, we're in
for a real treat.
Geoffrey Canada is going to
be speaking about his work.
20 years ago, Geoffrey founded
the Harlem Children's Zone.
Now, anybody who is interested
in the cause of youth, the
cause of education, or just
even lives in New York, you
know, looks at Geoffrey
as a real hero.
And the work that he's done
is just so unbelievably
remarkable.
You know, he's an author, a
visionary, but somebody who has
really dedicated his life to
bettering the lives of young
people living on the
streets of Harlem.
And I can't resist the urge
to also note that I believe
Geoffrey is a third-degree
black belt in karate
or -- tae kwon do.
Even better.
Please join me in welcoming
Geoffrey Canada.
Geoffrey Canada: Well, I am
absolutely thrilled to be here,
and I was really worried about
what to wear because they said
everything was casual, casual.
And I thought, I bet will.i.am
is going to wear just what he
wants to wear and I'm not going
to be able to touch that so I'm
going to just wear my regular
clothes up here and be happy.
[Laughter]
That was just brilliant, by
the way, and I -- lots of
things sparked in my mind.
But we've had -- we've had an
incredible year because a
number of different forces
have come together to, I
think, support our work.
We've had the -- "60
Minutes." We've done
"60 Minutes" two times.
We've got a book that
Paul Tough wrote called
"Whatever It Takes."
American Express decided they
were going to do a commercial
and sort of highlight our work.
The President of the United
States put $200 million in the
budget to replicate our work in
20 different places
around the country.
And I have really been excited
to see a collection of
businesses and politicians and
other folk come together around
some of the things
that I care about.
I have to tell you one
thing, though, about
"60 Minutes," right?
So I've done "60 Minutes" two
times, and I grew up -- now,
this is a young audience and
I'm not young, but I grew up
watching "60 Minutes" because
in the late '60s, early '70s,
if you were a social justice
person, the place you went to
every Sunday to see justice
was "60 Minutes."
And it was the same
format forever, right?
Sunday, it would come on.
You'd have some
scoundrel, right?
He was polluting the rivers.
He would come on "60 Minutes."
Mike Wallace would be
interviewing him and I would
still there and think, "Why do
they go on '60 Minutes'?"
[Laughter]
It's not like it's a surprise!
It's the same format
every Sunday!
[Laughter]
So the guy's on "60 Minutes."
He's saying "No, Mike, my
company never pollutes the
rivers," and right in the
middle of that Mike Wallace
would like rip out the picture
of the guy dumping sludge
into the river, right?
[Laughter]
And I would sit there and
say, "Why do these idiots
go on '60 Minutes'?"
Then they called me!
[Laughter]
So I just -- the second
time I did it, I did it
with Anderson Cooper.
I did say to Anderson, I said,
"Anderson" -- he said, "Okay,
we're going to start."
I said, "Wait, Anderson.
Look, if you've got
something, could we just
get to it right away?
Like don't drag
this thing out."
[Laughter]
So I thought if you needed to
get a message to America --
right? -- the place you needed
to go on was "60 Minutes"
because 20 million viewers,
a hard news format, right?
I was wrong.
Do you know whose show you have
to do if you really want to
get a message out to America?
Oprah!
Oprah!
I was totally sleeping.
Oprah!
I mean, I know Oprah.
Everybody knows Oprah.
But I didn't have a clue.
This is how I got
my first clue.
If I'm going to do something,
I'm going to do "60 Minutes," I
say to my wife and kids, "Oh,
I'm doing '60 Minutes.'"
They say, "Oh, great, dad.
Have a great time."
"Oh, I'm going to the White
House, the President."
"Oh, yeah.
Oh, great.
Say hi to the first
lady for us," right?
Like nothing.
So I'm sitting around the
dinner table, I say, "Oh, I'm
going to Chicago next week,
I'm going to do Oprah."
And they said, "Oprah?
You?"
Like what would Oprah
want with you, right?
[Laughter]
And I was sitting there,
and I said, "Yes, I'm
going to do Oprah."
And they said, "Well,
did you get tickets?"
[Laughter]
And I'm looking at them.
That doesn't even occur to me.
I'm like, "Tickets?"
I call Marty, my
communications guy.
I say, "Look, Marty, call
the Oprah folks, see if you
can get me some tickets."
Oprah does the worst
thing possible.
She gives me seven tickets.
Now, look, if Oprah gives
me two tickets -- right?
-- that's my wife
and my mother.
Seven?
Everybody in your family thinks
they're in the top seven.
[Laughter]
Right?
So my whole family's like,
"We're going to Oprah!"
I'm like, "No, you're not!"
[Laughter]
So if you ask -- you say,
"So Geoff, what is it?
Why do you want to go and
get on these shows?"
I am convinced, without
a shadow of a doubt,
that our nation's very
future is in peril.
I don't have a
doubt about this.
If our country continues to do
what it has been doing, because
we'll -- everyone's innovating
except in one place.
Education is not
innovating at all.
There's a group of educators
who have no intention of
changing anything around how
our children learn, despite
what's happening in the rest
of the world, and our country
is absolutely in peril.
Now, I think -- I know people
are saying, "Well, Geoff,
that's a little hyperbole.
How bad could this thing be?"
Well, in some places, it's
really clear what's going on.
You know, the Schott Foundation
just put out a report on the
graduating rates from
high school for
African-American males.
Less than 50%.
Some places 75% of the kids,
African-American males, aren't
graduating from high school.
We're talking about
from high school.
We're not talking about from
college, we're talking
about from high school.
Now, if you look at what
happens when you don't have
a high school diploma just
in general, 54% of those
kids end up unemployed.
Do you know what the rate is
for African-American males?
69% unemployed!
69%!
I will tell you this: You find
me a place on the face of the
earth that has that kind of
unemployment in a group.
It's just impossible
to imagine.
I mean, how could
we be doing that?
And by the way -- by the way,
a quarter of those folks
are going to be in jail.
Now, here's what our
nation has done.
We have made a strategic
decision that we are not going
to educate all of our kids at
very high levels, but we are
going to be prepared to lock
these folks up when they don't
have jobs and they end up
breaking the law, which is a
pretty straightforward
line, right?
No jobs, 25, 30 years, people
do what they have to do,
they end up in jail.
Do you know our country locks
up more people per capita
than anyplace on the
face of the earth?
By --
No one's close to us!
No one's close to us!
It is staggering.
The last numbers we had, 2.3
million Americans in jail.
You think of the worst country,
you think of the place that you
wouldn't want to be near,
you start thinking
about North Korea.
Not even close.
What's it costing the nation?
The last numbers we had,
about $68 billion in
adult correction.
So here, you know, I have
this program, right?
We spend about
$5,000 per child.
There's a huge national debate.
"Oh, my God, Geoffrey Canada
spends $5,000 a child to get
these kids in college and do
-- and we -- you know, people
tell me it's honest."
They say, "Geoff,
it's not scalable.
It's just not scalable.
That is not scalable.
We need a number that we can
scale across the country."
I say, "Wait a second now.
Let me -- let me
just get this."
I have to end up in a lot of
criminal courts because of what
happens with my kids, and I
have yet to be in a court where
I've seen a judge say to a kid,
"Look, Rahim, look, this is
your second armed robbery.
I told you what was
going to happen.
Now we're going to have to
send you for 10 years.
Let's see, at $35,000 a
year, that's $350,000.
You know what?
I can't do that.
It's not scalable."
[Laughter]
[Applause]
Never heard it!
Never heard it!
Never!
So wait, wait, wait!
So here's one part of
our system that is
totally scalable.
We are prepared to spend
10 years, 20 years.
We're prepared to spend as much
money as we need to to keep
Rahim locked up and
no one bats an eye.
And what are the social
positive outcomes
we get from that?
Nothing.
Does Rahim come out
able to get a job?
No.
Does he fake care
of his family?
No.
Is he able to go on?
No.
We have essentially spent a
fortune to produce nothing.
And we are totally
comfortable doing that
all over this country.
Everybody -- no one
blinks an eye.
And now you've got me out
here yelling, "We ought
to -- we ought to stop.
We know where the Rahims are.
They've been in the same
places for 50 years.
We know it by the block.
We know it by the projects.
We know exactly where
this is going on.
And you know what's
going on there?
Those folk are not
getting an education.
They are simply not
getting an education!
They can't come out
and compete."
So we have a small little
thing we think we ought to
do as a nation, which is to
educate you're children.
We ought to educate them!
We ought to realize that this
is a globally competitive
market we're preparing American
children for and we're going to
pay for these kids one
way or the other.
It's not like we cannot do the
investment and then we end up
like, "Well, we'll just save
all that money and do something
else." We're going to
spend that regardless.
And so we thought we
ought to do this.
Now, you know what?
I thought, because of how I
grew up, that, you know, I -- I
wasn't going to get Americans
to understand that.
People who were not
in my business.
I just honestly thought,
"They don't care.
I haven't convinced them
that they ought to
get involved in this.
It's messy work.
People are unsure about
what the outcomes are."
But over the years -- I've been
at the same job for going on 28
years -- I've found that you
can unite people in this
country around certain kinds of
issues, if people know there's
a crisis and there's something
that needs to be done.
I mean Matt Blank, one of my
board members, is here, who
is the president of
Showtime Networks.
Matt was one of -- his company
is one of the first companies
where they came in and Matt
said, "Geoff, I'm in.
Whatever we can do to help in
this effort, we're going to do.
I believe that it is in the
nation's best interest
to solve this problem."
Why?
Okay.
So -- "Geoff, I understand
there's African-American kids
and there's Latino kids and,
you know, that's a problem but
you're making this into
a national crisis."
This is an interesting -- you
ever get something and you
read it and you say, "Well,
that can't be true."
That happens every
now and then.
I get some information and I
read it and I say, "Well,
that can't be true."
Someone gave me this report and
it's called "Ready, Willing,
and Unable to Serve," signed --
the authors are top military --
43 of the top retired military
people in the United States.
You've got generals and
lieutenant generals and vice
admirals and major generals and
rear admirals and brigadier
generals, and it goes on and on
and on, all of the folk
who sign onto this.
And what is the basic
thesis of this?
75% of young adults cannot
join the military.
Now, I got that report, and
I said, "Wait a second.
What was -- what did you say?
Did you just say 75% of
young adults cannot --
did you say black kids?"
They said, "No, no.
We're not talking black kids."
I said, "Did you
say Latino kids?"
"No, we're not talking
about Latinos kids."
I said, "So you're telling me
in America, 75% of our young
people in America can't
join the military?"
They said, "Oh, yes."
Now, I don't know about you but
I never thought the high
benchmark that we were shooting
for in America was to
join the military.
Right?
I mean I have nothing wrong
with joining the military.
I just never thought that that
was a standard that we were
shooting for, and you're
telling me that --
I didn't believe it.
I said, "That data's
got to be wrong."
It's not wrong.
It's not wrong, when
you get the numbers.
First you have to graduate
from high school.
I told you about some
of those numbers.
That's ugly.
You're going to wipe out
30% of the American
population right there.
Then you find 30% of the folks
who graduate from high school
cannot pass the entrance test
to get into the military.
I said, "Okay!"
Now, you have a felony?
Can't join.
Oh, we mentioned there
was a problem in some
groups with that.
Well, I say, "Well, that's
still not enough people."
But then to join the
military, you have to be
in relatively good health.
I mean, you have to be able to
not like run a marathon, right?
But you should be able to run
from this wall to that wall
without needing to
catch your breath.
[Laughter]
Right?
I mean, we have allowed our
children to become so unhealthy
that they cannot join -- it's
staggering what we've done to
children in this country.
It is staggering!
And so the military leaders are
saying "Because of that, we
can't even accept these
kids in the military."
This is a national
defense crisis!
If we really needed to
mobilize this nation,
how would we do it?
Now, these folks understand
there's a crisis here.
They're calling for early
childhood education.
They're calling for investments
in our young people.
And I'm sitting here saying
to myself "Wait, wait, wait.
Doesn't anybody else
see this thing?
Doesn't anybody see what's
going to happen?"
I mean, if you love America
-- I love this country.
I'm not talking about wearing
the flag and you do -- I'm
just talking about for real.
If you love this country and if
you think like everybody says,
"Well, the children
are our future" --
See, I really believe that.
I don't mean it as a slogan.
I really believe that if you
want to see what America's
going to be in 20 years, look
at where our children are right
now and you'll be scared.
But, see, you're probably
thinking like I was thinking.
I said, "Wait a second, now.
I know a lot of people
love this country.
The leaders aren't
going to lose America.
I mean, come on!
I know that people have
an answer to this
education problem.
Right?
Because, I mean, after all, we
know a small number of folk get
together and really
run the world."
I'm from the '60s.
I just can't help
myself, right?
I never saw a conspiracy
I didn't like.
I really believe --
[Laughter]
I mean, you know, I'm sitting
here saying, "Well, I know that
people aren't going to lose
America, that they're going
to -- there's a solution.
It's just above my
pay grade," right?
So over the last seven, eight
years, I've met a few
presidents, a few secretaries
of education, a few secretaries
of labor, directors
of domestic policy.
There is no plan.
There is no plan!
When I meet these folks, they
say to me, "Geoff, what do
you think we ought to do?"
I say, "You asking me?
I'm here in Harlem trying
to save my kids."
Nobody knows!
So if we're going to save
America's children, then we're
going to have to do it.
We're going to have to do it.
It's not like someone -- I know
you all are thinking, "Well,
Geoff, isn't that your job?"
Oh, I'm telling you, I'm going
to save my 10,000 because
that's what we decided
we're going to do.
That's my capacity.
I'm going to save my 10,000.
But the rest of America's
children are in peril unless
we decide, as a nation, that
we've got to tackle this.
Now, let me tell you,
I get in trouble now.
This is the easy part.
Everybody when I say this,
everybody says, "Okay, Geoff,
yeah, we're with you, we hear
you, we got to do something."
Let me tell you when
I get in trouble.
Because if we're going to save
children, then it means that
we're going to have to do some
things that people think that
I'm really a radical when I say
these kinds of things, and I
hope I don't leave you -- lose
you here because I say things
-- and people get mad at
me all over the country.
I say things like, "If you
really cannot teach and we can
prove you can't teach, then you
probably shouldn't teach."
[Laughter]
Right?
[Applause]
Now, I know.
I know that's radical and
there are a lot of people who
think I'm an extremist for
saying things like that.
They say, "He did not
just say that!"
Yes, yes, yes, I fundamentally
believe that people who can't
do their job should be fired.
That doesn't mean they should,
like -- you know, we shouldn't
put them in chains or arrest
them, but it just means they
probably should find
another career.
Do you know that teaching is
one of the few places where
98% of them cannot be fired?
I don't care how well
we demonstrate they're
lousy for kids.
You cannot fire them.
You have to ask yourself: That
system is great when it's
working, but what if
it's not working?
What if it's not working
and you can't get rid of
folk who aren't good?
What if you can't even figure
out if they are any good?
You talk to people -- you
know what one of those
radical things are?
When you say, "Well, we ought
to figure out how we could
test to see whether; or not
you're a good teacher."
"Can't be done!"
"What do you mean?
Of course it can be done.
We've figured that out in every
other industry in America.
You can't tell me we can't
do it for teaching."
There are groups of folk whose
education innovation is -- this
is their theory -- you can
change anything in education
you want as long as you
don't change anything.
And that's the deal.
[Laughter]
And we have had debates in
education that have gone on for
decades around these areas that
allow no innovation, and I
think we've got to have
innovation in education.
There's absolutely no reason --
there is no reason! -- that
this -- which is a huge,
huge industry, by the way.
We're not talking
a minor industry.
We're talking a huge industry.
That in this huge industry,
we don't have competition.
You know, this is --
this is education.
Because I'm old, y'all
are young, y'all don't
know about this stuff.
I was one of the first kids
when I was in high school to
have a computer delivered
to their high school.
They had to bring this thing
in an Mack truck, right?
I'm serious.
The computer went from here
over to here -- right? --
and I thought -- you see
-- you see how smart I am.
So you had to type
these cards, right?
You had to punch in these
cards, and we used a language
no one's ever heard of called
FORTRAN, and you'd use that
language and you'd punch
in all of this stuff.
It took you about an
hour and a half.
You'd load the cards in the
deck, it would spit out all the
cards, and the computer would
tell you what 9 times
27 was, right?
[Laughter]
And I sat there and said, "This
is not going anywhere."
[Laughter]
"I'm not investing any
money in this thing here.
This has no future," right?
So what did I know?
But y'all know I'm
being serious.
I'm being serious.
Now, just imagine --
just imagine where
we are from there.
Let's get into phones -- I
can't even say in phones.
In people's toasters they have
more computing power than
we had back there in '68.
Education has not innovated
one iota in all of that time.
The same way we ran school when
I was a child and when my
mother was a child is the same
way we run school today.
We have not done one
thing different.
If it was up to educators, we
would still be having those
big clunky computers.
Right?
That's where we would be.
Now, how is that allowed?
How is that allowed?
So I think, you know, we've
got to shake the system up.
We've got to go out and we've
got to get innovation.
And the thing of it, you
innovate in education --
you know, people do
charter schools.
Oh, yeah, the charter schools
-- or people say there are
lousy -- there are a lot
of lousy charter schools.
Close them down.
They tried some stuff.
It didn't work.
Guess what!
That happens in life, right?
That's sort of how
it goes, right?
If you don't do well, you
kind of go out of business.
Everyplace except in education.
So my belief is, let's allow
innovation to flourish.
Here's a radical idea.
We ought to hold
people accountable.
If you take the money, you
ought to deliver a product
that's good and that
has quality to it.
When I talk of --
Here's another thing
people don't like.
You know, when we started our
school, I told our mayor, I
told my board -- Matt and
everyone -- and I told the
community, "If I don't have a
better school in five years
than the other public schools
in Harlem, I'm going
to fire myself."
I said it.
People said, "What's the date?
Geoff said he's going
to fire himself."
When everybody left,
I got my team near.
I said I just want you all to
know I'm last one leaving.
Let's just be clear.
[ Applause ]
Let's just be clear.
All of us have some skin
in the game here, right?
This is not something you
can just do and accept.
Can you imagine if
failure was okay?
I mean, I know it's
incomprehensible for
a lot of you here.
Just imagine if there was
no penalty for failure.
Just imagine if you could fail
for 25 years and we could prove
it and we could demonstrate it,
and yet not one thing happened.
Not one.
I say educators -- I was
at the Harvard Ed School.
I know my ed school is going
to be mad at me, right?
They actually told us that
teaching was so hard that you
could only do it about eight
months a year; and then you
needed a lot of time
off to recover.
Right?
I'm being serious.
So here it is.
You're running a school.
The school you can
prove it's failing.
What happens?
June, everybody goes.
That's the end of that.
Your kids are failing.
You work late?
No, you may not work late.
You work weekends?
No, you may not work weekends.
So what happens if all
the kids are failing?
Nothing, tough on them.
We adults collect
our paychecks.
We go on as if it's all good.
Now, look, if the nation
wasn't imperiled, I
wouldn't need you all.
Right?
I need people who care about
this, who say look, leave
it to the educators.
We can't leave it
to the educators.
We're in trouble.
We're in trouble as a country.
We're going to have to do
something about this.
We've decided we're going
to create a comprehensive
strategy in Harlem.
We call it the Harlem
Children's Zone.
We took 97 blocks.
We said we're going to save
those kids, and we're
going to do everything.
We're going to do health; we're
going to do mental health;
we're going to do education;
we're going to do job training.
We're going to guarantee
our kids are going
to get into college.
We're going to start at
birth and stay with these
kids through college.
People find that very
controversial that that's
what we want to do.
And we're going to spend money.
But that's our strategy.
I don't think it's the best
strategy in the world.
That's the only one I know
that's going to work.
You know what?
We'll improve it.
And, if it doesn't work,
we're not going to do it.
We'll go out of business.
That's the deal.
But we've got to have real
innovation in education if
we're going to save this
nation's children.
So I'd like to end with a poem.
I like to write poetry that
advocates -- this -- you
know, sometimes I get very
frustrated in this work.
Because some of things
I'm talking about are
so commonsensical.
But it is a huge raging debate
in America around these
very basic ideas.
And there are many people
who see me sort of as
like the anti-Christ.
Right?
He says those kind
of horrible things.
And some people think, "Oh,
that Geoff is a real sort
of visionary leader."
I believe that we've all
got to weigh in on this.
So let me close with a poem
I wrote that's called
"Don't Blame Me."
"The girl's mother
said, 'Don't blame me.
Her father left when
she was three.
I know she don't know
her ABCs, her 123s.
But I am poor and work hard,
you see?' You know the
story, it's don't blame me.
"The teacher shook her head
and said, 'Don't blame me.
I know it's sad.
He's 10.
But, if the truth be
told, he reads like
he was six years old.
And math, don't ask.
It's sad, you see.
Wish I could do more,
but it's after 3:00.
Blame the mom.
Blame society.
Blame the system.
Just don't blame me.'
"The judge was angry,
his expression cold.
He scowled and said,
'Son, you've been told.
Rob with a gun, and
you'll do time.
You've done it again.
Have you lost your mind?'
The young man opened
his mouth to beg.
'Save your breath'
he heard instead.
'Your mama didn't
take care of you.
Your Daddy left
when you were two.
Your school prepared
you for this fall.
Can't read, can't write,
can't spell at all.
But you did the crime
for all to see.
You're going to jail, son.
Don't blame me.'
"If there is a God or a person
supreme, a final reckoning for
the kind and the mean, and
judgment is rendered on who
passed the buck, who blamed the
victim, who proudly stood up,
you'll say to the world,
'While, I couldn't save all, I
did not let these
children fall.
By the thousands I
helped all I could see.
No excuses.
I took full responsibility.
No matter if they were black or
white were cursed, ignored,
were wrong or right, were
shunned, prejudged,
were short or tall.
I did my best to save them all.
And then I can bear witness for
eternity that you can state
proudly 'Don't blame me.'"
Thank you very much.
[ Applause ]
Jared Cohen: Back by popular
demand, I'm going to ask
Geoff one quick question.
And then we're going to have
the treat of having him back up
on the panel toward the end.
Since Zeitgeist is about
framing challenges and also
taking action, how many people
in audience, by show of hands,
hear the challenges that
Geoffrey is identifying and
what to know what you as
individuals and your
companies can do to help?
Tough question to answer,
but what should all these
people as individuals --
Geoffrey Canada: This
is what's interesting.
I am a usual suspect, right?
So, when I go in and fight
about these issues, people
know "Here comes Geoff.
We know what his issue is."
People honestly don't believe
other people care about this.
First, they don't believe
anyone knows about it.
And, secondly, they don't
believe anyone cares about it.
An interesting opportunity
that's going to happen is
Davis Guggenheim, who did
"Inconvenient Truth" and has a
new movie called "Waiting for
Superman," a documentary which
is going to be opening.
It tackles these issues,
these same issues.
It's going to tackle them
and put this in the
front of America.
People wonder what
is it we can do?
And this is what I'm
going to say to you all.
Because some of it is
technical, and you have
to get in the weeds.
And some of it is really
straightforward.
We need innovation.
We need the ability to have
folk come out, try things to
see if it works, get rid of
what doesn't work, and then
know that some things that do
work we're going to move
forward these ideas.
You are going to hear over the
course of the next six months
a bunch of folks try to
figure out how to stop this
innovation from happening.
People know this is coming; and
they're really, really scared.
And they're going to assume
that this is going to go away.
I need you to connect in local
communities around this issue.
This is a very simple question.
How did the kids do?
And in lots of places
you're going to find
they didn't do so well.
What are we going
to do different?
Now, at the point you ask that
question, you're going to hear
people -- remember how I told
you in education you can change
anything as long as
you change nothing?
And we have a whole 30 years of
research and history of how to
answer that question without
really doing anything different
than what we did last year.
And so the question is: Are
we going to work longer
for the children?
And the answer will be no.
And you ask them why.
You know what they're
going to tell you?
We can't.
You'll say why can't we?
They're going to start talking
about union contracts
and things like that.
Right?
That's the problem.
Is there another answer?
No, there is not.
We've got to work harder.
We've got to work longer.
We've got to make sure we use
data to drive instruction.
And It doesn't exist except in
the best -- and schools that
are succeeding, you don't
have to worry about this.
In schools that are
failing, it won't exist.
So I need, not me -- people
know exactly where I
stand on these issues.
They're going to come in
and say, "Yep, Geoff,
I understand."
I need regular citizens in
America to ask what are we
going to do different and not
accept someone saying we're
going to stay within the same
lines that haven't worked
for the last 50 years.
If you learn about what's going
on in your local communities,
people understand this is an
agenda item you care about,
everyone will hear
this differently.
The only reason we got the cap
on charter schools -- we moved
in New York state -- was a
group of business people
got together and said
we're backing this.
And everybody was
caught off guard.
They were like who?
And you know what?
They're not scared of me.
They are scared of you.
Sort of an interesting thing.
You might be thinking why
would they be scared of me?
Because they understand the
power that resides in folk who
don't have a vested interest in
an issue but do it because
they believe it's right.
That is a very powerful force.
And all the politicians and
policy makers understand that.
So I need folk to be prepared
to tackle these issues locally
and be clear that this is
something you care about.
And, when people understand you
care about it, it allows folks
like me to do my job easier.
Jared Cohen: Thank you, Geoff.
[ Applause ]
Next up is a remarkable
individual named Alberto
Vollmer who I had the privilege
of sitting next to at
dinner last night.
Let me tell you about
this guy for a minute.
He is the chairman and CEO
of Venezuela's oldest
privately-owned company, which
is very much a rarity in
today's Venezuelan society.
Just to give you an idea how
old this company is, it was
actually founded the same
year George Washington
was re-elected president
of the United States.
Beyond being a prominent
businessman in Venezuela,
Alberto has done something
remarkable that goes against
the trend of any landowner or
business person in that
country, which is he has
founded, along with his wife,
an organization called Project
Alcatraz, which takes reformed
criminals and works to
reintegrate them into society,
something for which the notion
of having to socialize a
society to be comfortable
with taking criminals back
after they've reformed is
quite the undertaking.
Alberto is going to talk to you
about his experiences, and
I know you'll enjoy it as
much as I did last night.
Alberto Vollmer.
Alberto Vollmer: Thanks.
It's going to be a tough
one after Geoffrey.
I should have brought
some of the rum and Coke
and Black Eyed Peas.
It would be easier.
To begin, I want you to picture
the following situation.
I want you to imagine
the situation.
It's 7:00 at night.
You're in the office in this
hacienda on this property.
And it's, as Jared was just
saying, an old property.
And you're the CEO of this
very well-known company.
And suddenly the phone rings.
It's the head of security.
His name is Jimmy Perez.
Right?
And he says, "Listen,
I'm here with these
policemen up on a hill.
They're about to kill this
guy, and they need a red
light or green light."
Okay.
Let me give you a bit of
context before I continue
with the story.
Oops, sorry about that.
Pressed the wrong button.
Okay.
A bit of context.
Venezuela, as Jared was saying
once again, keeping a business
in Venezuela is extremely
difficult, either because the
macroeconomic conditions are
impossible because we've
got an oil-based economy.
Also we've got Chavez, who
is taking over most of
the private companies.
I think you've read about that.
But also, I think one of the
main things, one of the main
challenges every Venezuelan
has is the insecurity levels.
We've got the highest homicide
rate -- one of the highest
homicide rates in the world.
We've got the highest
kidnapping rate in the world.
This is just to compare
Iraq with Venezuela.
I don't know if you saw
Newsweek's article a week or
two weeks ago comparing the
homicide rates between
Iraq and Venezuela.
Now, bringing it closer to the
States, this is more or less
what the homicide rate looked
like in the States Ciudad
Juarez right after the big drug
war where they had
many killings.
Ciudad Juarez was
around 133 in 2009.
Caracas -- these are figures
from the Ministry of Interior,
Caracas was 232 homicides
per 100,000 inhabitants.
That means that, compared to
Caracas, Detroit is like
a walk in the park.
Anyway, in that context, what
had happened was that these
three gang members had
actually attacked one
of our security guards.
They had almost killed him.
They took his gun.
They were about to
finish him off.
And then they decided --
I don't know why they
decided not to kill him.
But, anyway, our position was,
if we don't retaliate, this is
going to be a terrible message
not only to this gang but
to all the other gangs.
They're going to come inside
our properties, and this
is going to become hell.
So, if you call the police,
the police isn't going
to do anything about it.
So I told Jimmy, ex-policeman,
"Go after these guys.
And then we'll see what we do
with them when we find them."
Well, he called me up when
he had the first one.
And I said, "Nah, forget it.
Just give them over
to the police."
Well, the police, when
they saw him, this is
a really wanted guy.
So they said, "No,
we've got to kill him.
We've got to bump him off."
So they take him
up to this hill.
Jimmy goes behind them just
because he thought, you know,
they were playing with
psychological power here.
But, when he realized it
was going to happen,
he called me up.
And, of course, I said no.
I said no way red light.
So that got even
more difficult.
He had to negotiate.
At the end he had to bribe
the policemen, which
is illegal, right?
Bribe the policemen so they
wouldn't kill the guy,
which is also illegal.
So they hand him over.
I told Jimmy, "Bring
him to me."
And we have this gentleman's
conversation without handcuffs.
And at the end we
reach an agreement.
I gave him two options.
The first option was you work
with no pay for three months to
make up for what you did, or we
hand you over to the police.
He accepted the first option.
He started working.
Actually, I told him
come on Monday.
If you don't appear and if you
don't abide by these rules,
you know what we'll do.
We know how to find you,
and we'll hand you
over to the police.
So, anyway, he starts working.
A few days later we
find the second guy.
And the second guy happened
to be the gang leader.
Well, he also accepts
the first option.
He starts working.
And, after a few days, he has
to have a meeting with me.
So we have this meeting.
And he says, "Listen, I'm
thinking this could actually
turn into an opportunity.
Do you think we could give this
opportunity or you could give
this opportunity to another
two or three of my friends?"
And I said, "Well, tell
them to come on Friday."
We set up a rendezvous.
And, actually, what happened
was it wasn't two or three that
appeared but the whole gang.
It was 22 guys, right?
And it's a little intimidating.
But the -- you know, you
have to go with the flow.
You sort of go forward.
You don't look back,
especially not right now.
And so anyway, there we
decided, yeah, let's
go ahead, you know.
These guys, I was thinking
of what the professor
was saying yesterday.
Why not?
I mean, these guys are giving
us the most valuable asset
that they actually have,
which is their identity.
Later, we would also find out
they have the information of
the whole criminal network,
which is incredibly valuable.
So we take them on board.
They start working.
And, after about two months of
working, actually, what we do
is we use psychological
treatment.
We use rugby.
Rugby because it's a contact
sport; it's a team sport.
The other thing we use is,
of course, values formation
and formal education.
And a lot of hard work.
So, anyway, these guys after
two months, they -- one of them
stands up in a meeting and
says, "Listen, this is fine.
But this isn't going to work."
"Why isn't it going to work?"
"Well, in a month's time
we're out of the program.
And we're going to have to go
back to killing if we don't
want to get killed, killing
the cemetery gang, which
is the opposing gang."
"Well, you know, you
bring me the problem.
Give me a solution."
They said, "Well, the only
solution with those guys
is to kill them all.
They're all psychopaths, man."
So they go through the
descriptions of these guys --
they rape their mother, this,
that, the whole story.
And it really -- it
was a real setback.
But, after a few days,
we sort of rebuilt our
sort of determination.
I told Jimmy, "You know, Jimmy,
let's go up to this place and
see if" -- we're in this --
right in the middle
of this gang war.
And it's one of those double
or nothing situations.
I think we don't really
have an option.
So, finally, we
decide to go up.
And just imagine.
This is -- it really
sounds quite stupid.
Oh, by the way, I forgot to
show the -- this is some
of the gang members.
But that was what happened when
we -- this was more or less the
faces we had in that first
meeting with the 22 gang
members with the first gang.
So anyway, we decided to go up.
What I was saying before is try
to imagine, you know, you're
in the country with the
highest kidnapping rate.
And you're going to go up to
the slum where the police don't
enter because in the last
year they've killed two
or three policemen.
They've got sniper positions.
It's a dangerous place.
So, anyway, we -- it sounds
like a very stupid thing to do.
But I think we were in one of
those situations where we
didn't really have an option.
So, we start driving up through
this slum, windy road.
As you get further and further
up the hill, you start feeling
the heavy looks at you,
aggressive looks.
And they get even
more aggressive.
The road gets narrower.
Until finally we got to the
dead end, which is where
the cemetery gang meets.
That's where they hang out, and
I remember just an instance
before stopping the car, I
said, you know what, Jimmy.
We got to move quick.
Get out of the car.
When you get out of the car,
let's create momentum.
We have to change the game.
I, by the way, had told him we
are going up there in our best
suit and tie, right, to sort
of create the change of game.
So, anyway, we get out of the
car and it is sort of like
jumping out and giving orders
to these guys that have
the guns here, no shirts.
They're sort of beginning
to revolve around the car.
I said, Hey, give me a table.
Plug this in.
Hang this screen up and
so on and so forth.
We were getting out with video
beams and computers and stuff.
Anyway, we started
a presentation.
And in the first three or four
minutes we had about --
[ Laughter ]
Yeah, I know, I put
them to sleep.
But anyway...
Actually, what was going on
while we were doing this,
everybody started curiously
sort of peeking out, what the
hell is going on here, right?
This guy in a suit and tie.
These two guys in
suits and ties.
Anyway, we had about 200
people standing around us.
Oh, man, sorry about that.
We had about two or three guys
standing around us -- 200
people standing around us.
And, basically, what we did
was we talked about the
future of the county.
And at the end, I decided to
challenge the cemetery gang --
most of them were standing
around us -- and seeing if they
were courageous enough to
enter Project Alcatraz.
As soon as I said that, they
started sticking out their guns
and saying, Those sons of
bitches, man, they
killed my brother.
They killed -- whatever.
I said, Okay.
So you can continue
killing each other.
So, after this discussion,
I said take me to the
gang leader's house.
The gang leader had been shot
up by the first gang and
he was paralyzed in bed,
three shots in the back.
So we go to his house.
And I explained to him, listen,
we've got this option.
It is your decision, man.
You take it.
It is your gang.
Finally, he said,
Okay, let's do it.
So the second gang enters.
We start working with them
separately until, finally, one
day after about two months we
decided to put them in one room
and make them make peace.
Now, what happened there was
that the word spread in the
rest of the region and we
started getting calls from all
the gangs, prisons, so on,
wanting to enter the project.
Ever since we have been
recruiting those gangs and,
of course, the -- sorry,
I forgot to flick these.
The homicide rates have
gone down dramatically
in our region.
And, basically, we have learned
three very important things.
The first thing is always
believe in people no matter
what their background is.
Second, criminals are
incredibly valuable for
solving the criminal issue.
And the third is -- at least
what we have found, is in the
future, in these few next
years, businesses must
get more involved in
social transformation.
That's the story of
Project Alcatraz.
Thank you very much.
[ Applause ]
Jared Cohen: We'll have a
chance to hear more from
Alberto when we ask him to
rejoin the panel
in a little bit.
There is some particular
question about role models
that we are going to
revisit with him.
This next session is really
something that's very dear to
my heart, which is looking at
radicalization, which is
radicalization is really --
especially since 9/11, one of
the largest unanswered
challenges we face.
You watch TV.
You read online.
You read the newspaper.
And all you hear over and over
again is about religion, about
ideology, about madrasahs,
imams and so forth.
This has really shaped our
few about what we think
extremism is all about.
But the question we are going
to explore in this next
conversation is what happens
once you remove the mass of
religion and ideology that
are cultivated by violent
extremists and really get to
the root of who these young
people are what they did this
and what's it all about.
Is it really about religion?
Is it really about ideology?
Is it about something that's
far more familiar to us?
Take something like
gangs, for instance.
Gang violence kills more
people in the United
States than war does.
And, yet, ironically, we
ignore that conflict at
home when compared to
the conflicts abroad.
Today, we are going to have
really what I think might
actually be the first
conversation between a former
gang member, Paul Carrillo, who
grew up in Watts and South
Gate, was a gang leader at a
very young age, I think 14 or
15 years -- years old.
And has now been out of the
gang for 11 years and founded
-- co-founded an organization
called Southern California
Crossroads where he works with
another great organization
called "A better L.A." to
counter the very organizations
that he used to be part of
to get kids off the street.
Then we are also going to
have Maajid Nawaz on stage.
Maajid was a leader of a
radical Islamist group called
Hizb ut-Tahrir which focuses on
looking towards military coups
as a way to restore the
caliphate and create a global
state of political Islam.
Maajid was imprisoned in
Egypt for four years,
and he got out in 2006.
I remember this because I was
working -- I was working in
the Bush Administration
at the time.
Maajid's defection from Hizb
ut-Tahrir shocked the world.
It was the most high-profile
defection from a radical
Islamist group that we
had ever seen before.
He founded, along with another
former member of Hizb
ut-Tahrir, the first think tank
of former Islamists that seeks
to go into the chatrooms, go
into the doldrums where young
people are recruited and really
counter the narrative from the
perspective of somebody who was
part of radical Islam, saw it,
didn't like it and left and is
now fighting against it.
I'm pleased to welcome to the
Maajid Nawaz and Paul Carrillo.
[ Applause ]
Jared Cohen: Let's
get right into it.
This question what
it's all about.
Both of you were recruited into
violent organizations, radical
organizations at a very young
age in very different contexts.
What I really want to get at
is, is recruitment into a gang
or recruitment into a radical
Islamist group really
that different?
I want to begin with your
personal stories and
then tie it together.
Paul, why don't you start.
Paul Carrillo: Sure.
Well, for me, I grew up in a
very dysfunctional household.
My father left when I was
about ten years old.
He came around for about a year
or two here or there, and it
was just to abuse
us or my mother.
A lot of substance
abuse at home.
We lived in a low-income
neighborhood.
When he left, my mother started
to abuse drugs and alcohol at
an alarming rate after that.
So, for me, I didn't want
to be home witnessing that
and suffering from the
abuse from my mother.
So I kind of went
to the streets.
That's where the
gang members were.
It is kind of funny because I
remember being 5 years old and
despising my father's lifestyle
because he was a gang member.
I hated the fact that the gang
took him away from us and went
to prison, committing
crimes and whatnot.
When I turned 13, 14 years
old, I ended up doing
the same thing.
Why did that happen?
Why did that happen?
So the only logical explanation
I can think of is I was looking
for a way to vent, looking for
a way out and the guys on the
streets accepted me and
embraced me in large part
because they knew me from my
relations to my aunts, my
uncles, my cousins, everybody
was a gang member.
They offered support, guidance,
love, respect, identity.
Some of the simple basic stuff
that every child should have
within their household with a
mother and father in
a cohesive family.
I didn't have, and I
found it in the gang.
Jared Cohen: Maajid, how does
your experience compare?
Were you religious
growing up, or was this
something you came to?
Maajid Nawaz: I wasn't
religious, and I would like to
actually use this opportunity
to try to smash a lot of myths
around Islam radicalization.
There are so many factors that
Paul and I, in conversation,
are similar as to why I
joined at 16 Hizb ut-Tahrir.
But there are also things
that are not similar.
I come from an
educated background.
I am a law graduate.
I studied Arabic.
I did my masters at the
London School of Economics.
I had a very agnostic childhood
and my mother raised me
in a very liberal way.
Most people who join the
Islamist organizations do
not come from the mosques.
They come from the background
that I have come from.
Bin laden is from one of
the richest families
in Saudi Arabia.
He is an engineer.
He is deputy to Ayman Zawahiri.
He is a doctor.
He is a pediatrician from
one of the most prestigious
families in Egypt.
But what is the similarity
here is in discussions over
breakfast and lunch, we
realized I also suffered
from acute identity crisis.
I was born and
raised in the U.K.
My family is originally
from Pakistan.
And I was forced at a very
young age, around 14, 15 years
old, to watch some very,
very violent racist attacks.
But they weren't
particularly against me.
What would happen is this group
called Combat 18 -- I suppose
I can drop that brand at
least on this platform.
They are not in danger
of becoming popular.
This group used to run around
the streets of my hometown,
and I only had white friends
because there weren't many
people who looked like
me from my town.
But they would hold me back
whilst forcing me to watch my
friends get stabbed before
my very eyes because they
considered them blood traitors
for having befriended me.
So there was these very
racist and violent attacks.
Hammer attacks on
people's heads.
People being stabbed
multiple times.
But then combined with
that, there was constant
police harassment.
So it didn't matter that I was
from a middle-class background,
educated and was trying to
make something of my life.
My brother was 16.
He was playing with a
plastic pellet gun.
I was 15 years old.
And old lady saw him
and decided he must be
about to rob a bank.
And so at 15 years old, I was
arrested at gunpoint by police
for suspicion of armed robbery.
None of the people that
attacked my friends were ever
convicted, but there was me
constantly being arrested and
harassed by the police because
at the time there wasn't --
this is long before 9/11.
It didn't have anything to do
with Islam, but it was because
of my skin color and people
that assumed certain things
about my background.
So this made me feel very
disconnected from the
society where I was born.
And I was in search
of an identity.
And in political Islam -- I
call it Islamism, and it is not
the same as Islam, the faith.
In Islamism, I
found an ideology.
I found an identity, and I
found a belonging, exactly
as Paul described.
That's where I think we
have very similar stories.
Jared Cohen: This is
interesting because going back
to this notion that it's all
about ideology, right, it
doesn't sound like what we are
talking about here is
a religious ideology.
So, when we were having lunch
yesterday, I asked you, Paul,
the question, is there an
ideology of the streets?
It is not religious obviously.
But can you describe an
ideology of the streets that
actually sounds similar to
Maajid's, or is it really
something very different?
Paul Carrillo: It is probably
different in the sense that
when I first joined the gang,
there was a lot of talk and lot
of behavior, the viewpoint
of "us against the world.
Nobody cares about us."
All the rich people on top
of the hill could care less
if we kill each other.
It probably benefits them
in some sort of way.
Why should we obey the law?
Just stuff of that nature,
underprivileged, kind of -- got
to kind of fend for ourselves.
And maybe even have to rob,
cheat and steal to feed our
families, stuff of that nature.
Maajid Nawaz: I think where
the commonalities are the
grievances that we experience
and the identity crisis.
It leads to the seeking of
belonging in something.
There weren't gangs.
Europe, it is not the same
as America in that sense.
We don't have those armed gangs
running around with guns.
What we do have instead is
a heavy Muslim population.
Some say they are the Blacks
of Europe, the Muslims.
And what we have is a situation
where in seeking that identity
they are joining extremist
organizations and it is quite a
huge problem in Europe, in the
U.K. and across the continent.
Jared Cohen: We have gotten at
the grievances and the
motivational needs that led
you, Paul, to join a gang and
you, Maajid, to join
Hizb ut-Tahrir.
What about the
decision to leave?
What were the grievances or
motivational needs behind both
of your very difficult and
potentially life threatening
decisions to leave these
organizations, which is
something that is, you know,
damn near impossible
for most people?
Paul Carrillo: Let me
try to sum this up
in about 30 seconds.
There was a young kid who kind
of idolized me, followed me
around, wanted to be like me
and I was kind of mentoring
him in the gang.
And I remember one particular
incident, there was a party in
my neighborhood and a guy from
an outside neighborhood tried
to stab one of my friends.
He didn't know that that
was our territory.
So long story short, we chased
him down and he was getting
beat by about ten guys.
And all of a sudden, this kid
taps me on the shoulder and I
turn around and it is a
10-year-old, 11-year-old
kid holding a turtle.
He says, Here, hit
him with this.
It was just mind goggling,
like, what is this kid
doing out at midnight?
Why is he offering me
his pet turtle to hit
this guy with, right?
So come to find out, this kid's
father had left him when he was
3 years old, started a
new family in Mexico.
His mother remarried and his
stepdad can't stand him.
So the family goes out on --
family parties on the weekend,
and he stays home by himself.
He was just looking
for acceptance.
I tried to convince the younger
guys to keep him out of the
gang, but he kept begging
to be a part of it.
So for me, fast forward maybe a
year or two later, within a
period of a couple of weeks, I
found myself getting involved
in some organized crime.
And this guy kept ending
up on my doorstep.
I said, Gosh, I got to
get away from this guy.
It is a level up from
the street gangs, some
prison gang stuff.
He was arrested by the feds on
a RICO charge so that helped.
I didn't have to worry
about him so much.
My girlfriend got pregnant.
This young friend of
mine was murdered.
I was at a bit of a crossroads.
I said, okay, I'm going to go
off the deep end now because I
never really been that violent.
I was more of an
organizer in the gange.
Each gang member plays
different roles.
Not every gang member is a
killer or a drug dealer.
I was always the organizer.
So I said, I'm really going to
go off the deep end and avenge
his death or I'm going to man
up and take care of my child,
which I always promised
myself I would do.
So I chose to be a man and
take care of my daughter, and
that's how it started for me.
Maajid Nawaz: Well, in my case,
I mean, I yet am able to answer
specifically why I took the
decision I did considering what
happened in prison because most
of the people -- I mean, if you
-- at the end of the day, if
you have been through torture
by electrocution, if you had
your friends die in front of
your eyes in prison because
they have been tortured, if you
have seen 15-year-old boys
electrocuted and mothers
electrocuted before their
fathers, most people in that
situation go from being
non-violent extremists, as I
was, to becoming terrorists.
I was on the verge of switching
when I was in solitary
confinement in Egypt to
becoming a violent terrorist.
What happened in my case is
whilst we were in prison in
Egypt, Amnesty International
adopted us as prisoners
of conscience.
I had considered Amnesty as
the enemy of my people.
I had considered human rights
an assault power tool of
colonialism to colonize the
minds of Muslims and make them
subservient to Western values.
When Amnesty reached out in
that way, for the first time, I
saw a consistent stance in
defense of people who they knew
considered them as enemies.
That opened up my heart.
I think where the heart
opens, the mind can follow.
Secondly, I think very
significantly in prison, I
was there with those who
assassinated the former
President of Egypt,
Anway Sadat, in 1981.
Those who weren't executed
in the case were
given life sentences.
And many of these former
Jihadists had abandoned their
violent ideology through a
constant process of discussion
and dialogue and engagement
with people who were involved
in deradicallization
of the prisoners.
Those guys went on
to speak to me.
Now, initially, I took it
upon myself to think that
you guys have sold out.
Prison has made you soft,
and it is my purpose to try
and reconvince of the fact
that you have basically
forgetten who you were.
These guys had been in
prison since I was --
what -- 7 or 8 years old.
They had done time.
Obviously, over the four-year
process, it was them who
managed to change my mind and
convince me that, in fact, what
I had thought was Islam, my
faith, was a very politicized
version of Islam.
It was exploiting sentiments of
grievances and my emotional
sentiments to my faith for
a political ideology.
So upon leaving a year later, I
decided to take that step and
start working for human rights
reconciliation and
counterextremism, i.e., to
prevent people from ever
joining extremist groups
in the first place.
Because I think it is very hard
to convince people who have
been through torture or on a
macro level to convince people
who have had their countries
invaded and civilians have been
bombed in front of their eyes,
is very hard to change
them once they have
been radicalized.
It is a lot easier to capture
people who are youth, 60% of
the world's population, before
they join extremist
organizations.
That's where we're
working in Pakistan.
That's where CBS "60 Minutes"
followed us there to
profile that work.
So I think what we're trying to
do is stop people from ever
joining in the first place.
Once they have gone down that
path, it is very difficult
to pull them back.
The pressures you spoke about,
it cost me my marriage.
My ex-wife, who is a member of
the group, I have a son with
her, our marriage ended and all
of the people that used to
idealize me as a prisoner of
that cause now consider
me a traitor.
And a couple of times have
either threatened or have
attacked me in Pakistan.
The pressures to leave these
organizations are huge, even
if you wanted to leave.
I think the best solution is
let's not bomb people, let's
not introduce regretative
legislation in Guantanamos
and Abu Ghraibs.
Let's start preventing the 60%
of the world's population from
ever joining those groups in
the first place because once
they join, the peer pressure to
stop them leaving
are so intense.
I mean, who is going to want
to have their marriage
end up in a divorce?
It is not something that every
person wants to go through.
I think prevent is
better than cure.
Jared Cohen: This is a
good opportunity to
bring up technology.
Technology offers a set
of tools that have
been distracting young
people for decades.
And the technology we see today
offers a potential to distract
young people off the
path of recruitment.
But if you look at just the
spike in technology, right, in
the last ten years, cell phone
growth around the world has
gone from 907 million to nearly
5 billion, Internet growth
from 361 million to
nearly 2 billion.
We all know while technology
doesn't choose sides, the
people who use it do.
Can you talk a little bit from
the gang content and the
radical Islamist context about
both the negative sides of how
technology is being used but
also where some of the
opportunities might
Paul Carrillo: Sure.
Well, for some of the kids that
I work with, most of them
have MySpace accounts.
I don't know if it's okay
to say "MySpace," but...
[Laughter]
So -- and in many of their
profiles, they display their
gang membership, if not
a family member's
gang membership.
A lot of times there's even
altercations that transpire on
MySpace and kind of filter
out into the streets.
Not at an alarming rate,
but it does happen.
So, you know, promoting
of the gang, it helps
to recruit members.
They kind of add a kid who's
kind of wanting to fit in.
I see a kid -- for example, a
kid from South Central L.A. has
a friend in, you know, a suburb
area and he's kind of wanting
to be from that gang and he
doesn't live in a poor
neighborhood or have the
same struggles as the
kid from the gang.
So just stuff of that nature.
It's just -- I don't know what
to do, honestly, you know.
The best thing we can try to do
is educate the parents, but a
lot of times the parents are
kind of thinking that it's the
thing to do, just let them do
what every other kid is doing,
but that's not the case.
But they do use -- I wouldn't
say e-mail so much,
but text messaging.
You know, "Hey, I just saw this
gang -- this member here," so
they go looking for the guy
through text messaging and
MySpace accounts and other
social networks that help
to promote and recruit.
Jared Cohen: Maajid, real
quick, because then we're
going to bring out Alberto
and Geoffrey back up.
Maajid Nawaz: Well, since this
is called "Mindshift," I mean
let's talk about some of the
ways in which I think extremist
organizations are thinking more
innovatively than we are.
They're addressing global
populations, they're not
recognizing national
boundaries.
Their message is global, their
recruitment is global, and
they're using new media in ways
-- I mean, I was taught how to
use the e-mail by the extremist
group that I joined at
around 17 years old.
I didn't know what e-mail was.
And they're active
on social media.
They're using the Internet in
amazingly efficient ways,
considering their resources.
And, yes, technology is
value-neutral, so it depends on
who is using it and how they
use it, but I think we need to
be a lot more imaginative as to
how we're using that technology
to push out counter-messages,
and we need to stop thinking in
a restricted national way.
We need to stop thinking of the
borders and the impositions
we put on our own minds.
Let's start in imaginative and
creative ways as to how we can
move forward in the future to
put out positive messages
by using technology and
other forms of media.
You know, music of will.i.am
and some of the work there.
But I think it's vital to
develop brands and symbols
for counter-radicalization.
Everyone's heard of bin Laden.
Everyone's heard of al-Qaeda.
Who's heard of the positive
alternative messages
out there to try and
challenge those brands?
And they are brands.
And at the moment, those brands
who are challenging them don't
have enough attention or
branding or symbolism around
them to develop that
potent counter-message.
Jared Cohen: Let's move on
to action and solutions.
I'd like to invite Geoffrey and
Alberto back to the stage.
I think we need
two more chairs.
So Geoffrey, Alberto, you know,
you've really heard a challenge
framed, you know, across two
very different contexts, right?
And in listening to the
challenge that I sort of hear,
it is that radicalization is
really about the process by
which, you know, illicit
actors, you know, hijack
impressionable young minds
and exploit them for
criminal purposes.
You know, as people that have
worked in the solution space in
two other different contexts to
our two colleagues here, you
know, what do you hear are
some of the potential
problem-solving ideas?
Geoffrey Canada: Well, I
mean, this has been really
fascinating to me because I am
amazed at how young people
gravitate towards extremes.
I mean, both out of curiosity
and other -- but if there is an
organized message of
recruitment, it happens without
the adults knowing
anything about it.
Meaning that that world exists
and the adults aren't really
connected to it at all.
There are two things I
found very interesting.
One is that one of the places
that people know our work
the best is in prison.
And I was just stunned
that people know that.
They said, "Oh, yeah, Geoff.
You're like a hero in there."
And the reason is because the
prisoners understand if they
had been in my program,
they probably wouldn't
have been in prison.
It was clear that I believe a
certain set of circumstances
led these kids to do these
things and end up in this
place, and so here they have
somebody saying, "Oh, yeah, I
know how you ended up there and
we're trying to stop you."
And in most places there was
no adult trying to stop young
people when they were at
that impressionable age.
The second thing is that I have
a lot of my young people who
are organizing around negative
areas using the Internet.
So we aren't -- I
told you I'm old.
So we're not connected
to it, right?
But they are and we don't
really know what's going on.
The last thing I'll say, just
as a potential solution, one of
the interesting things that
happened when AMEX decided to
do the commercial and put us on
it, I have met -- and people
think it had -- it didn't help
with fundraising and
stuff like that.
What has happened is I meet
people all over the country who
say to me, "You know what?
I am so happy to see that
somebody is doing something"
because it's the brand issue.
It's like there's a brand out
there that says there's an
answer, and if there's an
answer in Harlem, there's
probably an answer in South
Central and other things, and
that's one of the areas that
I think we haven't
really exploited.
Folks who create brands
and really get people --
I agree with you.
Everybody knows al-Qaeda.
I don't know a positive
brand, right?
If you want to say -- so what's
-- I haven't heard of anything.
And the question is why?
Because if I'm young and
if I'm on the edge,
where do I hook into --
Maajid Nawaz: You're
from New York, yeah?
Geoffrey Canada:
I'm from New York.
So of course the whole
controversy there at the moment
with the Park 51 Center.
So we're involved in trying to
develop a positive message
as an alternative, so we
discredit the clash of
civilization's rhetoric.
So many people are pushing out
there that Islam and the West
are at war with each other.
I mean, that's a
false paradigm.
Huntington's Theory
is incorrect.
The true clash is between and
within Muslims fighting for
democratic rights versus those
who are totalitarian
trying to control the vast
majority of Muslims.
It's not Muslims
versus the West.
So on the 6th of October
-- I mention this because
you're from New York.
I'm debating a motion -- it's
an Intelligence Squared
debate organized in New
York on the 6th of October.
The motion is Islam is a
religion of peace, and opposing
the motion is one of the most
prolific voices who is a critic
of Islam Ayaan Hirsi Ali, but
what we're trying to do -- and
we would like your support for
this -- is to develop a
positive image, because without
that positive image there's
nothing for the young people to
grab onto and they will be
attracted to the
negative brand.
And that's what's
happening at the moment.
So your support
would be welcome.
Geoffrey Canada: I'd
be thrilled to be
supportive of this.
Maajid Nawaz: Thank you.
Jared Cohen: Alberto, let me
ask you about role models and
then ask both Maajid and Paul
and Geoff if you want
to comment on it.
We spoke yesterday about the
importance of role models who,
you know, can be powerful
figures either in shaping
negative sentiments or
shaping positive sentiments.
You want to share your
thoughts on that?
Alberto C. Vollmer: Yeah
I wanted to take up on what
Paul was saying before.
You know, one of the things
we've found is that the mothers
of these guys, of these boys,
of these young men
are incredible.
They do everything.
They're the mother, they're
the father, they're
everything, right?
Now, there's one problem.
That mother needs a father
next to -- to her to
develop these young men.
What tends to happen around 12,
13 years old, the mechanism is
that they just go out, they
need that male role model, you
know, that should
be the father.
They need the male role model.
And who do they go after?
They go after a leader.
They're not going to
go after a loser.
They're going to look for the
hit man, they're going to look
for the drug dealer, they're
going to look for the head of
the gang, and that's their new
role model that they're
going to latch on.
And without their even being
conscious of it, they enter
these gangs and then
they can't help it.
Then how do you get out?
Once you get in,
there's no way out.
So for me, you know, one of the
things that -- one of the
programs that should really be
sort of worked on is how
to rebuild fatherhood.
I mean it sounds corny, but how
to rebuild this for these guys.
Because -- and why do they
come to Project Alcatraz.
They're looking for that role
model, the positive role model.
In that case, it's Jamie,
it's myself, and they
want to be somebody else.
They don't want to be stuck
there killing people
or trafficking drugs.
They're just like all of us.
You know, they've
got huge potential.
They're bright.
You've got some geniuses there.
And all of that potential is
being flushed -- flushed away.
Jared Cohen: Now, Maajid, Paul,
do you agree with what Alberto
is saying, and then can you
comment a little bit on, you
know, who are some of the
positive and negative role
models that you saw growing up
who could have had either an
exacerbating impact on your
recruitment or a potential
diverting impact on
your recruitment?
Paul Carrillo: You know what?
I'd have to agree with Alberto,
and it's similar to -- to what
Maajid explained a while ago.
It's extremely difficult to
get out, once you're in.
So there's some
similarities there.
And also, I mean, for me, it
was, you know, protection,
because even if you don't want
to be a gang member, if you
live in the neighborhood --
Geoffrey Canada: Yes.
Paul Carrillo: -- the kids from
the other side of the street
are going to pick on you.
So what are your options?
Do you not join the gang that
you're familiar with and just
let these kids beat you, or do
you join the gang and then the
numbers are kind of evened out
and maybe they won't
pick on you as much.
That happens a lot.
So a lot of times it's kind of
like by force, not by choice.
You know, kind of choosing
the lesser of two evils, and
it's hard, it's extremely
difficult, but I think
that father figure is key.
Looking for somebody to kind of
aspire to be the power, the
respect, the love,
or what have you.
The unfortunate thing is that
gang members, young gang
members, don't realize the
consequences that come with
that decision until it's too
late, until they're deep into
the gang, full of tattoos, in
prison, and then it's like,
"Oh, my gosh, what the
heck did I just do?"
Jared Cohen: Maajid, and
then we'll come back
to you, Alberto.
Maajid Nawaz: So there's
actually another overlap
between us, which is
statistically in the U.S., so
many prisoners who are in
prison for gang-related
offenses are converting to a
radical interpretation of
Islam, and they're doing that
because they're angry.
So what we have at the moment
is the demand for an extreme
message out there that people
are joining on the ground.
There is no demand being
created for a positive message,
and I think that when I joined
at 16, it's really sad to say
that it's one of the biggest
problems in the world,
not just in the States.
Islamist radicalization is
one of the biggest problems.
There was no positive role
model that I could look to and
say "I'm going to channel my
anger in this direction." I
only had the negativity in
front of me saying, "You're
oppressed, you're downtrodden.
Look at Bosnia.
Look at what happens
to Muslims in Europe.
So join us, be angry, and cause
a revolution in the world."
And that's what we
quite literally did.
You know, we had members of
armies recruited to our group
attempting military coups
in countries like Pakistan.
They were arrested in 2003.
People that I recruited had
their backs broken in torture.
It's this anger after anger
after anger, and I think that
it's sad to say that at the
moment, there is no prominent
and visible positive
alternatives.
We're using music, we're using
arts and culture, we're using
democratic messages to try and
get young people to, once
again, make it as unfashionable
as communism has become to join
al-Qaeda and to try and make
the democratic message of
pluralism and tolerance and
respect something that's
trendy and fashionable
to be associated with.
Salman over there,
he's a good friend.
He's helping.
We need other musicians, other
artists, all of us in a
coalition to try and make
the positive role model
attractive once again.
Jared Cohen: Our red light is
on, so we do need to finish up
and I'm going to give Maajid
and Paul the last words here,
but let me frame something for
you before you do that because
I want you to address your last
words at the audience, again
going back to the spirit of
Zeitgeist being a
place of action.
You know, you've listen to
scholars who are experts on
radicalization and gangs.
You look at, you know,
what the media tells us.
You look at even what,
you know, government
is trying to do.
They all tell us it's a battle
for the hearts and minds
of young people, right?
But the question we have is, is
it really -- when I hear you
all speak -- when I hear,
Geoffrey, you, when I hear
Alberto, you, as well, it's
sounds to me like it's less a
battle for the hearts and
minds, and it's more a
challenge of alternatives.
So given that it's a challenge
of alternatives, you have a
whole audience of people here
that know how to build things.
They build applications, they
build programs, they build
things that actually for
commercial purposes have that
natural effect of diverting
at-risk young people
away from recruitment.
You know, what should
all these people do?
What's your call to
action for all of them?
Paul Carrillo: I would say it
has to be a comprehensive
collaborative approach, similar
what we're trying to do with
the Better L.A. in Los Angeles,
and people have to come to the
table with what will.i.am
discussed earlier and the stuff
that he's doing, the amazing
work that Geoffrey is
doing in education.
That's a big component of it.
And then what Alberto is doing
-- and it's similar to --
to working with extremists.
You know, the administration
used to have an approach of "We
won't sit at the table with
anybody who is on this
list as a terrorist."
Well, we have the approach
where, you know, now the new
administration says "We'll sit
down and have a dialogue for
peace with anybody that's
willing to sit down and
have a dialogue."
And that's what we do
with gang members.
If they're willing to sit down
and say, "How can we work this
out, provide you with some
jobs, tattoo removal, get you
out of the situation that
you're in, then let's do it."
Jared Cohen: Maajid?
Maajid Nawaz: I'm told in
Pakistan I've spoken to over
10,000 students who are
vulnerable to joining some of
the more angry organizations in
that country, and what I would
request of everyone here is:
Help me create this as a brand.
I mean, this is one of the most
significant civilizational
challenges of our time,
and we need to develop
positive role models.
We need to create a sustaining,
a self-sustaining model, and
that requires artists, cultural
figures, it requires
businessmen to come in and help
me create this as a sustaining
brand, because in Pakistan at
the moment, we're trying to
launch this nationwide movement
to promote democratic values
and challenge extremism.
But the problem we're having is
of course when you talk about
challenging extremism, it's --
many people want to step back
because they're worried about
being targeted, quite
legitimately so.
But we need to be as brave for
those people who are willing to
risk death and torture and
imprisonment for angry ideas
and we should be just as
willing to risk and sacrifice
all of that for our
own convictions.
So my challenge to everyone
would be to help me
develop this brand.
We're working day in and day
out to try and do this but
we're lacking resources
and we're lacking that
self-sustaining model.
Jared Cohen: Maajid,
Paul, Geoff, Alberto,
thank you very much.
[Applause]
