♪ [THEME MUSIC] ♪
BOB: HI, I AM BOB HERBERT.
WELCOME TO OP-ED.TV.
IT HAS BEEN 64 YEARS SINCE THE
SUPREME COURT’S BROWN VERSUS
BOARD OF EDUCATION RULING
OUTLAWING SEGREGATION IN PUBLIC
SCHOOLS.
THIS YEAR, LINDA BROWN, WHOSE
FATHER WAS THE LEAD PLAINTIFF IN
THAT CASE DIED AT THE AGE OF 75.
ALL THOSE YEARS HAVE PASSED AND
YET SCHOOL SEGREGATION ON AN
ENORMOUS SCALE PERSISTS.
PASSIONS ON BOTH SIDES OF THE
ISSUE REMAINED INTENSE.
IS THIS A PROBLEM WITHOUT A
SOLUTION?
I WILL TALK ABOUT THIS AND OTHER
EDUCATION ISSUES WITH MY GUEST,
LEONIE HAIMSON, A LONGTIME
EDUCATION ACTIVIST AND THE
FOUNDER OF THE ADVOCATE GROUP
CLASS SIZE MATTERS.
THANKS FOR COMING IN.
WE DO NOT HAVE TO LOOK FAR TO
CONFRONT THE ISSUE OF SCHOOL
SEGREGATION RIGHT HERE IN
LIBERAL NEW YORK CITY. WE HAVE
A FAIR AMOUNT OF IT.
HOW SEGREGATED ARE NEW YORK CITY
SCHOOLS?
LEONIE: SEVERAL INSTITUTES OF
RESEARCH AND ANALYSIS HAVE SAID
THAT NEW YORK CITY HAS THE MOST
SEGREGATED PUBLIC SCHOOLS IN THE
NATION.
THE VAST MAJORITY OF OUR PUBLIC
SCHOOLS ARE VERY SEGREGATED
WHICH MEANS MORE THAN 80% OF
WHITE AND ASIAN VERSUS BLACK AND
LATINO.
WE HAVE A SERIOUS PROBLEM, NO
DOUBT.
I WOULD SAY MOST OF THE LARGE
URBAN DISTRICTS ACROSS THE
COUNTRY ARE EXTREMELY SEGREGATED
AS WELL.
BOB: IN NEW YORK, AND WE WILL
GET TO THE REST OF THE COUNTRY,
IN NEW YORK THERE IS A PROBLEM
EVERYWHERE YOU LOOK.
WHITE FAMILIES DO BETTER AT
GETTING INTO THE BETTER
PRESCHOOLS IN NEW YORK CITY.
IF YOU GO ALL THE WAY UP TO THE
ELITE HIGH SCHOOLS, WHITE AND
ASIAN STUDENTS ARE ENROLLED AT
MUCH HIGHER RATES THAN BLACK AND
LATINO STUDENTS.
WE KNOW THAT HOUSING PATTERN AND
A HOUSING DISCRIMINATIONS ARE
PROBLEMS BUT IT HAS TO BE MORE
THAN THAT.
WHAT ELSE IS DRIVING THIS
INTENSE SEGREGATION?
LEONIE: MORE THAN MOST OTHER
DISTRICTS, NEW YORK CITY
SCHOOLS, ESPECIALLY THE MIDDLE
SCHOOLS AND HIGH SCHOOLS
ADMISSIONS ARE BASED AT LEAST
IN PART ON TEST SCORES.
OUR TOP HIGH SCHOOLS ARE
SPECIALIZED HIGH SCHOOLS.
THE ENTIRE ADMISSIONS PROCESS IS
BASED ON ONE SINGLE STANDARDIZED
EXAM.
WE ARE THE ONLY DISTRICT IN THE
COUNTRY WHERE THAT IS TRUE.
WHENEVER YOU BASE ADMISSIONS
SOLELY ON STANDARDIZED EXAMS,
YOU WILL HAVE HUGE ISSUES WITH
RACIAL UNBALANCE BECAUSE
STUDENTS DO NOT EQUAL THEIR TEST
SCORES AND THERE ARE MANY
FACTORS THAT YOU GO INTO PUTTING
TOGETHER A GOOD SCHOOL OTHER
THAN TEST SCORES.
THE FACT THAT WE HAVE THIS TEST
BASED SYSTEM MAKES THE INHERENT
SEGREGATION OF OUR CITY EVEN
WORSE.
BOB: WE HAVE HAD SCHOOL
DISTRICTS WHERE THERE HAVE BEEN
EFFORTS TO INTEGRATE OR
DESEGREGATE AND PARENTS HAVE
RESISTED.
IT SEEMS LIKE GOING BACK TO THE
1970’S OR SOMETHING.
CAN YOU TALK ABOUT THAT?
LEONIE: IT IS A MIXED PICTURE IN
NEW YORK CITY BECAUSE I WANT TO
GIVE CREDIT TO PARENTS WHO HAVE
LED THE MOVEMENT FOR
DESEGREGATION.
BOB: THAT IS WHY YOU HAVE THE
CLASH -- THERE’S AN EFFORT TO
DESEGREGATE.
LEONIE: MOST OF THE EFFORT IS
COMING FROM THE GRASSROOTS.
IN DISTRICT 1 WHICH IS ON
THE LOWER EAST SIDE,
PARENTS HAVE LED
THE FIGHT FOR DESEGREGATED
SCHOOLS FOR OVER 10 YEARS.
ONLY RECENTLY HAS THE
ADMINISTRATION BEGUN TO RESPOND
TO THAT NEED AND THOSE CAMPAIGNS
BY ALLOWING A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF
DESEGREGATION EFFORTS TO OCCUR.
I BELIEVE THAT PARENTS DESERVE A
LOT OF CREDIT IN A LOT OF PARTS
OF THE CITY FOR LEADING THE
MOVEMENT TO DESEGREGATING OUR
SCHOOLS.
THERE ARE PARENTS IN CERTAIN
PARTS OF THE CITY WHO ARE VERY
HESITANT BECAUSE THEY EQUATE
GOOD SCHOOLS WITH HIGH TEST
SCORES AND THEY UNDERSTAND
THAT WHEN SCHOOLS BECOME
DESEGREGATED, TEST SCORES TEND
TO GO DOWN.
IN MY MIND, THE FAULT IS THE
OVERWHELMING IDEOLOGY THAT NEW
YORK CITY AND SCHOOLS ACROSS THE
COUNTRY HAVE TAKEN SINCE NO
CHILD LEFT BEHIND IN ORDER TO
EQUATE TEST SCORES AS
ACHIEVEMENT.
ONCE YOU DO THAT, THE SCHOOLS
THAT HAVE THE LOW TEST SCORES,
THERE IS AN EFFORT TO CLOSE THEM
DOWN, TO FIRE THE TEACHERS, OR
TO TURN THEM INTO CHARTER
SCHOOLS.
THAT IS INHERENTLY DESTABILIZING
AND NO PARENT WANTS TO SEND
THEIR KIDS TO A SCHOOL LIKE
THAT.
RECENTLY THERE WAS A BLOG POST
BY A TEACHER IN PENNSYLVANIA
WHOSE SCHOOLS HAD TAKEN EFFORTS
TO DESEGREGATE ON THEIR OWN AND
NOW THEY ARE ON A WATCHLIST
FOR CLOSURE BECAUSE OF IT.
THAT SHOWS THE ENTIRE DIRECTION
OF THIS COUNTRY IN TERMS OF
EDUCATION POLICY HAS MOVED IN
THE WRONG DIRECTION AND HAS
WORSENED SEGREGATION, ALONG WITH
THE INCREASE IN CHARTER SCHOOLS
WHICH IS ANOTHER HUGE ISSUE
WHICH WE SHOULD DISCUSS.
BOB: WHY SHOULD WE CARE?
DOES IT MAKE A DIFFERENCE
WHETHER SCHOOLS ARE INTEGRATED?
WHY IS THIS AN ISSUE OF
SIGNIFICANCE?
LEONIE: THERE IS RESEARCH THAT
SHOWS THAT THE ACHIEVEMENT GAP
BETWEEN RACIAL GROUPS NARROWS
WHEN SCHOOLS BECOME INTEGRATED
AND THERE ARE MORE RESOURCES
IN INTEGRATED SCHOOLS FOR THE 
STUDENTS. BUT I THINK THE 
LARGER ISSUE IS THAT AS
A COUNTRY, WE ARE SO DIVIDED,
RACIALLY, ECONOMICALLY AND
IDEOLOGICALLY IT IS MORE
IMPORTANT THAN EVER THAT KIDS OF
DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS GO TO
SCHOOL TOGETHER AND PARENTS OF
DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS ARE
INVOLVED IN THOSE SCHOOLS.
WE LEARN FROM EACH OTHER, WE
LEARN EMPATHY, WE LEARN
DIFFERENT POINTS OF VIEW AND WE
MOVED TOGETHER AS A COUNTRY.
PUBLIC SCHOOLS ARE ONE OF THE
LAST INSTITUTIONS IN THIS
COUNTRY THAT OUR DEMOCRACY IS
BASED ON.
PART OF THAT DEMOCRACY DEPENDS
ON UNIFICATION AND UNDERSTANDING
OF OTHER PEOPLE’S POSITIONS.
WITH OUR COUNTRY SO DIVIDED AND
POLARIZED, I THINK INTEGRATION
IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN EVER.
BOB: YOU MENTIONED CHARTER
SCHOOLS.
I THINK DIVERSITY GOES OUT THE
WINDOW WHEN YOU START TO TALK
ABOUT CHARTER SCHOOLS.
YOU HAVE DEMOCRATS, VERY LIBERAL
PEOPLE WHO ARE SUPER PRO CHARTER
AND IF A SCHOOL IS 98% OR 100%
AFRICAN-AMERICAN, THAT IS FINE
WITH THEM.
WHAT IS UP WITH THAT? WHY IS
THE ISSUE OF INTEGRATION SUCH
A NON FACTOR WHEN WE TALK
ABOUT CHARTER SCHOOLS?
LEONIE: STUDIES SHOW CHARTERS
TEND TO BE MORE SEGREGATED THAN
OUR PUBLIC SCHOOLS.
WHAT THE CHARTER LOBBY ARGUES IS
THAT INTEGRATION DOES NOT
MATTER, ESPECIALLY IF THESE
SCHOOLS ARE GETTING GOOD TEST
SCORES.
THE PROBLEM WITH THAT IS A LOT
OF THE HIGHER TEST SCORES THAT
SOME OF THEM GET, NOT ALL OF
THEM BY ANY MEANS ARE BASED UPON
EXCLUDING SOME OF OUR NEEDIEST
KIDS, ESPECIALLY KIDS WITH
SPECIAL NEEDS AND ENGLISH
LANGUAGE LEARNERS.
THERE IS NOT A DISTRICT IN THE
COUNTRY WITH CHARTER SCHOOLS
WHERE CHARTERS ENROLL AN EQUAL
NUMBER OF THOSE STUDENTS.
WHAT A LOT OF THEM DO, INCLUDING
HERE IN NEW YORK CITY AND I
HAVE MANY FRIENDS WHO ARE
PARENTS OF FORMER CHARTER SCHOOL
STUDENTS, IS THAT THEIR KIDS GET
INTO THE SCHOOL AND THEN BECAUSE
THEY DO NOT CONFORM EITHER
ACADEMICALLY OR BEHAVIORALLY TO
THE VERY STRICT RULES OF THE
CHARTER SCHOOL, ONE BY ONE THEY
GET SUSPENDED REPEATEDLY AND
THEY GET PUSHED OUT.
THAT IS NO MODEL FOR A SCHOOL
SYSTEM THAT I KNOW OF.
BECAUSE OF THAT, THERE HAS
BECOME A TALE OF TWO CITIES IN
NEW YORK CITY AND MANY OTHER
LARGE URBAN DISTRICTS IN WHICH
THE CHARTER SCHOOLS ARE EXEMPTED
FROM A LOT OF THE RULES AROUND
DISCIPLINE, SUSPENSION, AND
EXPULSION AND ALSO THERE IS LESS
FINANCIAL OVERSIGHT.
WE HAVE SEEN INCREASING NUMBERS
OF SCANDALS.
IN OHIO, AN ONLINE CHARTER
CHAIN WAS FOUND TO HAVE STOLEN
$1 BILLION OF PUBLIC SCHOOL
FUNDS AND MANY OF THESE WERE
SUPPORTED BY REPUBLICANS WHO
WERE BEING PAID BY THE PEOPLE
WHO RAN THE CHARTER SCHOOL.
IN ANY CASE, RIGHT NOW IN NEW
YORK CITY FOR EXAMPLE, CHARTER
SCHOOLS HAVE TAKEN MORE THAN
$1.8 BILLION OUT OF THE PUBLIC
SCHOOL SYSTEM WHICH IS ALREADY
UNDERFUNDED.
IN OTHER CASES, A LOT OF THAT
MONEY IS GOING TO GRAFT AND
CORRUPTION AS WELL.
WE SEE AN UNDERMINING OF THE
PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM.
WE SEE AN UNDERMINING OF EFFORTS
TO INTEGRATE AND PROVIDE MORE
HUMANE DISCIPLINARY PROCESSES IN
SCHOOLS AND TO HAVE A MORE CHILD
CENTERED EDUCATION THAT IS LESS
TEST BASED BECAUSE OF THE
EXPANSION OF CHARTER SCHOOLS.
BOB: LET’S STAY WITH THIS FOR A
MOMENT.
I HAVE COVERED THIS A FAIR
AMOUNT.
I DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE
FASCINATION WITH CHARTER
SCHOOLS.
YOU HAVE TOUCHED ON SOME OF THE
POINTS.
THE OVERWHELMING NUMBER OF
PUBLIC SCHOOL STUDENTS GO
TO TRADITIONAL PUBLIC SCHOOLS.
THEY DON'T GO TO CHARTER
SCHOOLS. ON THE WHOLE, 
STUDIES HAVE SHOWN THAT
CHARTER SCHOOLS DO NOT DO ANY
BETTER THAN TRADITIONAL PUBLIC
SCHOOLS ACADEMICALLY, IF YOU
TAKE EVERYTHING INTO ACCOUNT.
THEY DO NOT PERFORM BETTER OR
HAVE BETTER OUTCOMES.
CHARTER SCHOOLS DRAIN A
TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF MONEY AND
OTHER RESOURCES AWAY FROM
TRADITIONAL PUBLIC SCHOOLS.
CHARTER SCHOOLS ARE PUBLIC
SCHOOLS BUT THEY DO NOT HAVE TO
FOLLOW THE SAME RULES AND
REGULATIONS.
A TREMENDOUS NUMBER OF KIDS ARE
LEFT BEHIND WHEN THESE RESOURCES
ARE DRAINED FROM THE TRADITIONAL
SCHOOLS.
WHAT IS THIS FASCINATION?
WHY ARE 70 PEOPLE SO CRAZY ABOUT
CHARTER SCHOOLS?
LEONIE: I CANNOT PSYCHOANALYZE
THIS MOVEMENT.
BOB: I WISH YOU WOULD.
LEONIE: I THINK A LOT OF IT --
THE MAIN SUPPORTERS OF THE
CHARTER SCHOOLS, ESPECIALLY IN
NEW YORK ARE WALL STREET AND
HEDGE FUND MANAGERS WHO BELIEVE
IN THE FREE MARKET AND THEY HAVE
MADE A LOT OF MONEY THROUGH THE
FREE MARKET AND THEY BELIEVE
THAT OUR SCHOOL SYSTEM SHOULD BE
COMPETITIVE AND BASED ON THE
FREE MARKET AND INSTEAD OF
PROFITS, TEST SCORES SHOULD BE
THE PROXY.
THEY ALSO TEND TO BE VERY
ANTI-UNION AND THEY ARGUE,
WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE, THAT THE
UNIONS ARE THE BASIS OF LOW
PERFORMANCE IN THE LARGE CITIES,
PARTICULARLY AMONG KIDS OF
COLOR.
THEY WANT TO DESTROY THE UNIONS.
THEY DO NOT BELIEVE THAT PUBLIC
EDUCATION SHOULD BE FULLY
FUNDED.
THEY ARGUE THAT MONEY DOES NOT
MATTER, AND ONE OF THE WAYS THEY
PROVE THIS IS BY THE CHARTER
SCHOOLS, WHICH BY THE WAY THEY
ARE ALSO SUPPORTING AND GIVING
MILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO.
A LOT OF THEIR ACTIONS ARE
SELF-CONTRADICTORY.
BOB: A LOT OF THE CHARTER
SCHOOLS ARE LAVISHLY FUNDED.
LEONIE: NOT ALL OF THEM, BUT IN
NEW YORK CITY WE HAVE SEVERAL
CHAINS THAT MAKE MILLIONS OF
DOLLARS ON THE SIDE IN ADDITION
TO GETTING PUBLIC SUPPORT.
ONE OF THE THINGS I FIND MOST
DISTRESSING ABOUT IT IS THAT --
MY LIFE IS DEVOTED TO REDUCING
CLASS SIZE IN THE PUBLIC
SCHOOLS, WHICH I THINK IS THE
NUMBER ONE WAY YOU NARROW THE
ACHIEVEMENT GAP AND DELIVER A
FULL QUALITY EDUCATION TO KIDS.
MOST OF OUR SCHOOLS ARE
OVERCROWDED.
MORE THAN HALF A MILLION KIDS
ARE IN OVERCROWDED SCHOOLS 
IN NEW YORK CITY.
NOW WE HAVE A LAW PASSED AT THE
INSISTENCE OF THE CHARTER LOBBY
THAT EVERY NEW CHARTER SCHOOL
SHOULD GET SPACE AT CITY
EXPENSE.
AS OUR PUBLIC SCHOOLS GET MORE
MORE CROWDED AND HAVE LARGER AND
LARGER CLASS SIZES, OUR CHARTER
SCHOOLS ARE GUARANTEED SPACE
THAT WE HAVE TO PAY FOR
EITHER IN OUR OVERCROWDED
PUBLIC SCHOOLS OR IN
PRIVATE SPACE.
WE HAVE TO PAY FOR THEIR LEASES.
THAT SHOWS THE PRIVILEGES AND
THE PRIORITIES THAT WE ARE
GIVING TO ONE ASPECT OF OUR
SCHOOL SYSTEM OVER ANOTHER.
THAT IS NOT FAIR.
BOB: THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION
AND THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IN
GENERAL ARE VERY MUCH
PRO-CHARTER AND ALSO VERY BIG ON
PRIVATIZATION.
THEY ARE NOT EXACTLY THE SAME
THING ALTHOUGH THERE IS A GREAT
DEAL OF OVERLAP.
BETSY DEVOS, THE EDUCATION
SECRETARY, RECENTLY VISITED NEW
YORK CITY.
TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE
SCHOOL SHE CHOSE TO GO TO.
LEONIE: SHE VISITED TWO ORTHODOX
JEWISH SCHOOLS IN NEW YORK CITY,
ONE FOR BOYS AND ONE FOR
GIRLS.
THIS IS A CONTROVERSIAL TOPIC,
BECAUSE MANY OF THE YESHIVA'S
IN NEW YORK, ESPECIALLY THOSE
FOR BOYS, DO NOT PROVIDE AN
ADEQUATE EDUCATION TO THE
BOYS, AND IN FACT,
THEY LEARN NO SECULAR SUBJECTS
AFTER ABOUT THE AGE OF TWELVE.
YOU COME ACROSS KIDS YOU CAN
BARELY SPEAK ENGLISH.
THIS IS CONTRARY TO STATE LAW
AND CITY LAW AND WHICH ALL KIDS
ARE SUPPOSED TO GET A BASIC
EDUCATION.
THE CITY HAS BEEN PROMISING FOR
THREE YEARS TO INVESTIGATE THIS
AND HAS BASICALLY DONE NOTHING.
BEYOND THAT, THERE IS A LONG
TRADITION, AND A PART OF OUR
STATE CONSTITUTION, CALLED THE
BLAINE AMENDMENT, IN OUR STATE
CONSTITUTION AND OTHER STATES
ACROSS THE COUNTRY WHICH
SEPARATE CHURCH AND STATE.
PUBLIC DOLLARS ARE NOT SUPPOSED
TO GO TOWARD RELIGIOUS
EDUCATION.
BETSY DEVOS WHEN SHE VISITED
THOSE SCHOOLS STRONGLY CAME OUT
AGAINST THE AMENDMENT AND SAID
THEY SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM ALL
STATE CONSTITUTIONS.
SHE IS A VERY BIG BELIEVER IN
RELIGIOUS EDUCATION.
SHE IS A FUNDAMENTALIST
CHRISTIAN.
IN HER HOME STATE OF MICHIGAN
SHE HAS FUNDED MANY CAMPAIGNS TO
TRY TO INSTITUTE PUBLICLY FUNDED
VOUCHERS FOR RELIGIOUS SCHOOLS
THAT HAVE FAILED IN THE BALLOT
BOX.
SHE IS DETERMINED TO SPREAD THIS
GOSPEL NATIONWIDE.
IT IS VERY DANGEROUS.
THAT IS ANOTHER DIVISION, THAT
IS ANOTHER BASIC BEDROCK
PRINCIPLE OF OUR DEMOCRACY --
OUR SCHOOLS SHOULD BE SECULAR AS
MUCH AS POSSIBLE.
BOB: YOUR ORGANIZATION THAT YOU
FOUNDED IS CLASS SIZE MATTERS.
THIS HAS BEEN A BIG ISSUE.
YOU WANT SMALLER CLASSES AND
THIS HAS BEEN A BIG ISSUE FOR
THE LONGEST TIME.
TALK ABOUT THAT AND EXPLAIN WHY
IT IS SO IMPORTANT, AT LEAST IN
YOUR VIEW.
I AGREE WITH IT.
WHAT ARE THE BENEFITS THAT COME
FROM SMALLER CLASSES?
LEONIE: THE RESEARCH IS RIGOROUS
AND CRYSTAL-CLEAR ACCORDING TO
ALL THE AUTHORITIES THAT SMALLER
CLASSES LEAD TO TREMENDOUS
BENEFITS FOR ALL KIDS, BUT
PARTICULARLY KIDS OF COLOR WHO
SEE TWICE THE AMOUNT OF BENEFITS
WHICH IS WHY IT'S ONLY
A HANDFUL OF REFORMS SHOWN
TO NARROW THE ACHIEVEMENT GAP.
KIDS IN SMALLER CLASSES LEARN
MORE, THEY GET BETTER TEST
SCORES, THEY ARE SUSPENDED LESS
OFTEN.
TEACHER ATTRITION GOES DOWN WHEN
YOU HAVE SMALLER CLASSES WHICH
LEADS TO A MORE EXPERIENCED
TEACHING FORCE AND THERE ARE
MANY STUDIES THAT SHOW OTHER
BENEFITS OF SMALLER CLASSES IN
TERMS OF A MORE ENGAGED AND
BETTER SCHOOL CLIMATE.
KIDS IN SMALLER CLASSES GRADUATE
FROM HIGH SCHOOL AT GREATER
RATES.
THEY GO TO COLLEGE AND ARE MORE
LIKELY TO GRADUATE FROM COLLEGE
WITH A STEM DEGREE.
THERE ARE MORE LIKELY TO OWN
THEIR OWN HOME AND HAVE A 401(K)
20 YEARS LATER.
THE RESEARCH IS CLEAR.
THE ONLY STUMBLING BLOCK IS THAT
IT COSTS MONEY.
HERE IN NEW YORK CITY, WE HAVE
HAD A SERIES OF MAYORS,
INCLUDING MAYOR BLOOMBERG AND
NOW MAYOR DE BLASIO WHO HAVE
PROMISED TO REDUCE CLASS SIZE
AND HAVE DONE NOTHING.
IN FACT, MORE THAN 350,000 OF
OUR KIDS ARE IN CLASSES OF 30 OR
MORE AND THE NUMBER OF KIDS IN
LARGE CLASSES IN THE EARLY
GRADES HAVE GONE UP
SIGNIFICANTLY OVER THE LAST FEW
YEARS.
WE HAVE BEEN ADVOCATING NONSTOP
ON THIS ISSUE FOR MORE THAN A
DECADE.
WE NOW HAVE A LAWSUIT IN THE
STATE SUPREME COURT ABOUT THE
CITY’S FAILURE TO REDUCE CLASS
SIZE.
WE BELIEVE A STATE LAW
REQUIRES THEM TO DO SO.
I TRULY BELIEVE WE WILL NOT MAKE
PROGRESS AS A CITY EDUCATIONALLY
UNTIL THIS HAPPENS.
OUR SCORES ON THE NATIONAL
ASSESSMENTS, WHICH ARE THE GOLD
STANDARD, THE ONLY TEST WHERE
THE RESULTS ARE RESPECTED AND
RELIED UPON, SHOW THAT OUR
ACHIEVEMENT LEVELS HAVE NOT
INCREASED OVER THE LAST FOUR
YEARS AND HAVE DROPPED
SIGNIFICANTLY IN MATH
AND SINCE 2003 WE HAVE
FALLEN BEHIND OTHER CITIES.
I THINK ONE OF THE REASONS IS
THIS CHRONIC PROBLEM OF OVERLY
LARGE CLASS SIZES.
BOB: ONE OF THE PROBLEMS -- YOU
TALK ABOUT THE FUNDING.
THERE ARE ALL KINDS OF PROBLEMS
WITH THE FUNDING OF PUBLIC
SCHOOLS.
THIS OBSESSION WITH TAX CUTS,
ESPECIALLY AMONG REPUBLICANS AND
CONSERVATIVES, NOT JUST OF THE
FEDERAL LEVEL BUT AT THE STATE
AND LOCAL LEVEL AS WELL MEANS
THAT MONEY IS JUST NOT THERE FOR
EDUCATION AT THE LEVELS THEY
SHOULD BE.
AS YOU POINTED OUT WHEN I WAS
TALKING TO YOU A FEW DAYS AGO, A
LOT OF THE SCHOOLS HAVE NOT
RECOVERED FROM THE GREAT
RECESSION, FROM THE IMPACT OF
THE FUNDING CUTS THAT RESULTED
FROM THE GREAT RECESSION.
CAN YOU TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT
THIS DOUBLE WHAMMY
OF TAX CUTS AND NEVER HAVING
FULLY RECOVERED THE FUNDING THAT
SCHOOLS HAD BEFORE THE
RECESSION?
LEONIE: IT IS AN AMAZING
STATISTIC.
WE ARE NOW A DECADE PAST THE
RECESSION AND YET MOST STATES
AND MOST SCHOOLS STILL HAVE
SMALLER STAFF AND MUCH LARGER
STUDENT POPULATIONS THAN IN
2007.
IN MOST CASES, CLASS SIZES HAVE
GONE UP AND STATE BUDGETS, WHICH
WILL HUGELY CUT BACK HAVE NOT
RECOVERED AND SUPPORT FOR PUBLIC
EDUCATION HAS NOT RECOVERED.
ONE OF THE THINGS I THINK IS
MOST REGRETTABLE IS THAT THE
REPUBLICANS WHO CONTROL MOST OF
THE STATEHOUSES AND THE STATE
LEGISLATURES DID CUT BACK ON
TAXES OR DID NOT MAKE UP THE
SHORTFALL SINCE THE RECESSION.
THE DEMOCRATS HAVE NOT MADE THIS
THE ISSUE THEY SHOULD HAVE OVER
THE LAST DECADE OR SO.
TO SOME EXTENT, THEY HAVE JOINED
WITH THE MORE CONSERVATIVE
GROUPS IN TERMS OF THE D.C.
THINK TANKS AND SOME OF THE
LARGER FOUNDATIONS, INCLUDING
THE GATES FOUNDATION, AND
OTHERS, WHICH HAS A HUGE
INFLUENCE ON PUBLIC EDUCATION
IN THIS COUNTRY, TO ARGUE
THAT MONEY DOESN'T MATTER,
AND CLASS-SIZE DO NOT MATTER.
ARNE DUNCAN, WHEN HE WAS
SECRETARY OF EDUCATION SAID WE
SHOULD TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE
RECESSION TO INCREASE
CLASS-SIZE.
BOB: THIS IS A DEMOCRATIC
ADMINISTRATION.
LEONIE: IT IS SHOCKING TO ME AND
REGRETTABLE.
BILL GATES SAID THE SAME THING.
WITH ALL OF THEIR PUSH TO
INCREASE TESTING AND CHARTER
SCHOOLS AND ALL OF THE THINGS
WHICH HAVE UNDERMINED OUR PUBLIC
SCHOOLS, THE NOTION THAT OUR
PUBLIC SCHOOLS SHOULD BE FAIRLY
FUNDED AND HAVE SMALLER CLASSES,
ESPECIALLY IN LARGE URBAN
DISTRICTS WITH LOTS OF KIDS OF
COLOR WAS OFF THE AGENDA.
I FIND THAT TRAGIC AND SAD
BECAUSE THE DEMOCRATS SHOULD BE
MAKING THIS THEIR ISSUE.
EVEN NOW, WITH OBAMA AND DUNCAN
GONE THEY HAVE NOT CENTERED ON
EDUCATION TO THE DEGREE I THINK
THEY SHOULD.
PUBLIC EDUCATION HAS HUGE
SUPPORT IN POLLS AMONG REGULAR
VOTERS OF BOTH PARTIES.
WITH THE TEACHER STRIKES ACROSS
THE COUNTRY, WE ARE SEEING IN
SOME OF THE MOST UNDERFUNDED
STATES, SHOWS THAT POPULAR
SUPPORT IS WITH THE TEACHERS.
THEY ARE NOT WITH THE STATE
GOVERNMENTS.
CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICANS AND
GOVERNORS ARE GIVING IN TO THE
TEACHER DEMANDS, NOT BECAUSE
THEY BELIEVE IN THEM BUT BECAUSE
THEY KNOW POPULAR OPINION IS ON
THE TEACHERS SIDE.
BOB: YOU’VE BEEN HEARTENED BY
THESE PROTESTS AND
DEMONSTRATIONS BY THE TEACHERS.
IN OUR LAST MINUTES, TALK ABOUT
WHY YOU THINK THIS IS A GOOD
THING THAT IS OCCURRING.
LEONIE: IT IS VERY EXCITING
BECAUSE THE TEACHERS ARE OUT
THERE.
IT IS TRULY A GRASSROOTS
MOVEMENT, IT IS NOT LED BY THE
UNIONS.
AND A LOT OF THESE STATES, THE
UNIONS HAVE HAD THEIR POWER
TAKEN AWAY BECAUSE OF RIGHT TO
WORK LAWS.
IT IS A GRASSROOTS MOVEMENTS AND
THE TEACHERS THAT ARE OUT THERE
STRIKING OR WALKING OUT ARE
DOING IT NOT JUST BECAUSE THEY
NEED A HIGHER SALARY, WHICH THEY
ABSOLUTELY DO, AND A LOT OF THEM
ARE NOT EVEN MAKING A LIVING
WAGE AND HAVE SECOND JOBS,
WHICH IS ABSURD.
THEY ARE ALSO DEMONSTRATING FOR
ADEQUATE FUNDING FOR THEIR
SCHOOLS IN TERMS OF CLASS SIZES,
IN TERMS OF COUNSELORS, IN TERMS
OF TEXTBOOKS, IN TERMS OF
FALLING APART SCHOOL BUILDINGS
AND ALL THE THINGS WE KNOW
MATTER TREMENDOUSLY TO KIDS.
THAT IS ALSO WHY THERE’S SO MUCH
POPULAR SUPPORT FOR THE
MOVEMENT.
THEY HAVE NOT TAKEN THEIR EYES
OFF THE PRIZE.
OF COURSE THEY NEED A LIVING
WAGE AND SALARY INCREASES, WHICH
MANY HAVE NOT HAD IN A DECADE,
BUT THEY ALSO UNDERSTAND THAT
THAT MUST GO ALONG WITH FULLY
FUNDING OUR PUBLIC SCHOOLS AND
SMALL CLASSES, WHICH IS ALSO ONE
OF THEIR TOP PRIORITIES.
BOB: WE WILL HAVE TO CLOSE IT
THERE BUT THERE IS SO MUCH MORE
TO TALK ABOUT.
WE WILL HAVE TO HAVE YOU BACK.
LEONIE HAIMSON, THANK YOU SO
MUCH.
LEONIE: THANK YOU.
BOB: WE’LL BE BACK IN A MOMENT
WITH A FINAL WORD.
BOB: THE KNOW IT ALL CLOWNS WHO
THOUGHT IT WAS A GOOD IDEA
TO INVADE IRAQ IN 2003 SAID
THAT ONLY GOOD THINGS WOULD COME
FROM THAT WAR.
ONCE SADDAM HUSSEIN HAD BEEN
DISPOSED OF, FREEDOM WOULD
BLOSSOM IN THE MIDDLE EAST LIKE
THE FLOWERS OF SPRING.
MAYBE NOT.
15 YEARS LATER IRAQ IS A MAJOR
LEAGUE DISASTER ZONE.
THE MOST SEATS IN A RECENT
NATIONWIDE ELECTION
WENT TO A FEROCIOUS
CRITIC OF AMERICAN POLICIES IN
THE MIDDLE EAST.
IRAQ IS STILL PLAGUED BY TERROR
ATTACKS AND MURDEROUS VIOLENCE.
THE AMERICAN TRAINED
IRAQI ARMY AS A JOKE AND
GOVERNMENT CORRUPTION REMAINS A
MIND-BOGGLING STAPLE
OF IRAQI LIFE.
AS FOR THE REST OF THE MIDDLE
EAST CAN YOU SPELL CATASTROPHE?
SYRIA IS A NIGHTMARE WITH THE
MIGHTY U.S. LOOKING ON
HELPLESSLY.
THE NUCLEAR DEAL FORGED BY THE
U.S. IN IRAN HAS BEEN UNDERMINED
BY DONALD TRUMP.
THE PEACE PROCESS BETWEEN THE
ISRAELIS AND THE PALESTINIANS IS
NOT EVEN ON LIFE SUPPORT
ANYMORE.
NEARLY FOUR AND A HALF THOUSAND
AMERICAN TROOPS DIED IN THAT
WAR IN IRAQ 
ANOTHER 1,700 DIED IN AND
AROUND AFGHANISTAN, WHICH 
WE INVADED AFTER THE TERROR
ATTACKS OF SEPTEMBER 11, 2001.
WHAT DID THEY DIE FOR?
WHAT PURPOSE WAS SERVED BY THE
HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF IRAQIS
WHO WERE KILLED IN THE INVASION
IN THE YEARS THAT FOLLOWED.
I ONCE SPENT SOME TIME
WITH AN ARMY SERGEANT
WHO WAS PARALYZED FROM
THE WAIST DOWN.
I ASKED IF HE AND HIS MEN KNEW
FOR SURE WHO THE ENEMY WAS AND
WHY THEY WERE FIGHTING IN IRAQ.
SERGEANT SIMPSON PAUSED FOR A
LONG MOMENT, THEN SAID SOFTLY, I
DO NOT KNOW.
THAT WOULD BE MY ANSWER.
I DO NOT KNOW.
THAT WAS 2004, 14 YEARS AGO, AND
WE STILL DO NOT KNOW.
THE WORST PART, NO ONE SEEMS TO
CARE.
THAT IS ALL FOR NOW.
SEE YOU NEXT TIME.
♪ [THEME MUSIC] ♪
