[MUSIC PLAYING]
ZIGI SHIPPER: It's been
really an honor and a pleasure
to come to you people
to tell you my story.
It's very simple, you know.
I just tell you what
happened to me as a child.
Unfortunately, no
Holocaust survivors
when we arrived to Britain
between 1945 and 1947,
we never talked about
it, because there
were so many reasons.
And some of them like,
who's going to believe us
when we tell them about
babies being killed
and things like that?
So unfortunately,
it was a mistake.
We should have started earlier.
But eventually, about
over 30 years ago,
I started speaking about it.
So I would like to tell you
what happened to me as a child.
And I go back to when I
was about three years old.
It's funny, I don't remember
what I had for breakfast,
but I remember what
happened so far ago.
[LAUGHTER]
So unfortunately, my
parents got divorced,
and my mother left us.
I didn't know where she
went or what have you.
She disappeared.
And I was brought up
by my grandparents,
a very orthodox Jewish people.
I was born in Poland in a
city called Lodz, "Lodge."
It was the second-largest
city in Poland.
It was.
It isn't anymore, and you'll
find out later why it isn't.
Anyway, but I had a very
good life to begin with.
When growing up, went to school.
We had a lovely apartment.
I even had my own
bed, my own bedroom.
Can you imagine in the
early '30s, in Poland
especially, for a child
to have his own bedroom?
It was unheard of.
People wouldn't believe it.
Even my daughters
wouldn't believe it,
till I took them there.
Anyway, but I had
a very good life,
till I was about nine years old.
My father worked for his father.
He had a business,
his own business.
And my uncle worked in it.
Everything was all
right, you know?
And I went to school
like every child went.
Well, everything was
going on well till 1939
when the British prime
minister, Neville Chamberlain,
sent an ultimatum to
Hitler after talking
to him many times.
And he said, if
you attack Poland,
you'll be at war with us.
By that time, half of
Poland was already occupied
by German troops.
So on the 3rd of September
1939, Britain and France
declared war on Germany.
Within six weeks,
the whole of Poland
was occupied by German troops.
Everything changed.
First of all, no Jewish child
was allowed to go to school.
It didn't matter whether
it was a Jewish school
or a non-Jewish,
he wasn't allowed.
Teachers weren't
allowed to teach.
Doctors, lawyers,
accountants were not
allowed to practice
their own profession.
And every morning we
got up, there were--
on the wall, there
were different things
written out, what we're allowed
to, what we're not allowed to.
Like, you're not allowed to
travel on public transport.
We had trams in our city.
If they caught a Jewish
person, especially a man--
they would recognize the way
he was dressed and so on--
[INAUDIBLE],, they slung
him up, irrespective
whether the tram was moving
or it was stationary.
They just didn't know.
And all things like that.
But the worst thing--
most of us were frightened
to go out, but we had to.
There was already
very little food,
because the Polish farmers
were frightened to come in.
But eventually, they did.
So they met a Jewish man
walking in the street.
And a few soldiers,
just for fun--
they saw he was Jewish
with his beard--
they cut his beard up.
And then if they
were near a shop,
they used to go and
get a bucket of water
and made him wash the
pavement for no reason,
just to humiliate him.
Anyway, it was carrying on
like that till November, 1939.
Then we got to know, because
there was a Jewish group that
were running us, and some
officers came to them
and they said, every
Jew living in Lodz
will have to go to a
designated area, which
was the poorest area of town.
They said the Polish
people will move out
so they'd make more room.
But to live a proper
living in the place
they asked us was room
enough for 20,000 people.
And the city of Lodz had
265,000 Jews living there.
Can you imagine?
This is almost the same amount
that Britain has got today.
And this is one city.
Anyway, they said
there's no choice.
By April 1, 1940, every
Jew has to be inside.
If anybody caught
outside, will be shot.
So my grandfather, my
grandmother, and I--
because my father ran away and
he managed to get into Russia--
so we took a few cases,
whatever we could carry,
and we went to a place--
just one solitary room.
There was no running water.
That meant there was no toilets.
There was nothing.
There was no choice.
And they told us we
are lucky because we
are only three people.
Anyway, went in.
By April 1, it was completely
surrounded by barbed wire.
You couldn't get in,
you couldn't get out.
And everybody
inside was Jewish--
not Polish, not even German.
Everything was done
by the Jewish people.
There was even Jewish police.
So when we came in there,
they told us after a while,
everybody's got to go to work.
If you don't go to work,
you won't get any food.
So my grandmother got
to work for tailoring.
They were producing stuff
for the German army there.
And I got a job in
the metal factory.
They were also producing--
I didn't even know
what it was, but it
was stuff for their armies.
My grandfather,
unfortunately, he
couldn't get a job because
he was getting ill.
And within a very
short time, he died,
because he had very
little that wasn't allowed
to eat for Jewish people.
They were very religious.
Anyway, it was left
my grandma and I.
I worked six days a week from
7:00 in the morning to 7:00
in the evening.
Lunchtime, I used to get a soup.
We used to get a soup.
So it was like water with a
few vegetables swimming around.
If the person that was giving
out the soup liked you,
or maybe he knew you,
he dug a bit deeper
and was even a piece of meat.
So every time I say
that, especially
in schools with young
students, and they say to me,
how could you eat horse meat?
I said, we would
have eaten anything.
We would have eaten
dogs and cats as well.
If you are starving--
and I hope you will never
find out what starvation is.
I always say that to students--
but never, never say
to your mom and dad,
"I'm starving," when you come
back, because starving is
a completely different thing.
And thank god we
don't starve here.
Anyway, it was
carrying on like that.
And of course, people are
dying from starvation.
They didn't have
enough medications.
And a lot of them were
committing suicide, especially
women.
And I could never understand it.
And I kept on saying
to my grandmother--
I said, why did they
kill themselves?
And she wouldn't answer me.
I found out myself
after a while.
Can you imagine a mother losing
a child, two, three, or even
more children from starvation?
Over a lack of food?
Anyway, it carried on like that.
And one day, some officers
came to the people
that were running to get on.
They said they
need 70,000 people
to go to work in Germany.
They asked the Jewish
police to supply them.
They couldn't do it.
So the German officers
said, there's no problem.
Nobody's going to go to
work for a whole week.
We go from street to
street, house to house,
and get the people we want.
They said to us--
the Jewish people,
the police or
whoever they were--
they said, we'll let you
know a night before when
they're coming, for next day.
So we said all right.
When the time came,
my grandmother
says she's going into hiding.
Would I go with her?
I said, what do I
need to go with you?
I'm 10 years old already--
or 12 years old,
sorry, 12 years old.
They won't need me.
I look about 10, 9 years old.
They need grown-ups that
can produce more stuff when
they take them to Germany.
So she says all right, because
she's going into hiding.
So she went into hiding.
I stayed, went to sleep,
got up in the morning.
They told us to go downstairs.
Big lorries were there, and
they started taking people.
And they took me as well.
And you know, all through
my life I was always lucky.
And this time, I
realized how lucky I was.
Anyway, when I
looked who was there,
there was babies, children,
young kids, disabled people.
And when I looked at it,
and I jumped off that lorry.
And where my luck
was, first of all,
the lorry wasn't moving yet.
And secondly, the guards
were in the yard, because you
went through a yard and all
through different houses,
and they were there
still taking people.
Anyway, I ran and ran.
And eventually, I hid
myself and stayed there
for quite a long time.
Eventually, came the night.
I didn't know when even.
I went back home.
Eventually, my grandmother came.
And after a few days, we
had to go back to work.
We don't know how many people
they took, whether there
were 70,000 or 60,000.
All I can tell you, not one of
us heard anything from them,
not a letter, not nothing.
Nothing.
We didn't hear a thing.
Anyway, when we stayed there,
and stayed there and worked,
and more people were
dying, and dying.
So one day I said
to my grandmother,
so many people are taken away.
So many people have died.
Why can't we get at
somewhere else to live?
At least we'll get
the running water.
She said there isn't.
Lodz ghetto was the
longest lasting ghetto.
It started April, 1940,
finished in the summer of 1944.
And they were bringing in
people from all over Europe,
even from Germany,
Jewish people,
so there was never any room.
So it was carrying on like that.
Most people were dying,
and dying, and dying.
And people ask me today,
how did you survive?
I wish I could tell
you, but I don't.
You know, anyway, it was
carrying on like that.
And then one day in
the summer of 1944,
some officers came and
said to the people that
were running the
ghetto, we've got
to close the ghetto because the
Russians are already near Lodz.
So it took them about a day or
two to cross the Bzura river,
and they'll be here.
But they told us the people
that work in the metal factory
can go as a group
to Germany to work.
So I said to my
grandmother, I said,
I'd rather go with
the group that I know
the people that I work with.
So she said she'll come with me.
They told us we
were only allowed
to take one suitcase each,
because where we are going,
everything is 100 times better.
We will have food, and drinks,
and stuff to wear, everything.
So my grandmother said
she will come with me.
So we took two suitcases, one
suitcase each, that what was we
were allowed.
We went to the
factory, and they said
they'll let us know when to
report to the railway station.
So after a few days, they
told us, tomorrow morning you
will report to the
railway station.
We took our cases in
the morning and went
to the railway station.
The first thing I said
to my grandmother,
I can't see any trains.
She said, they're
standing in front of you.
I said, they're cattle tracks,
or whatever they were called.
I said they can't be for us.
But she said, it looks like it.
They [INAUDIBLE] of those
trucks, and they took us in.
There was no way
we could sit down.
If you sat down, somebody
was sitting on you
or stepped on you, because
they were so packed.
The German guards had
problems to close those doors.
Anyway, when they
closed those doors--
and I was standing or sitting.
I don't know what I was doing.
But I recently told people
about it, my two daughters.
I was telling my two daughters
about this, just of that train.
I said, you know, and
something has been on my mind,
on my brain, and I
can't get rid of it.
They said, what did you do?
Did you do something bad?
I said I did nothing.
So what happened?
How can a boy, a
child of 14, hope
people should die so he'll
have room where to sit down?
What has become of me?
I was completely dehumanized.
All I wanted was to live.
Anyway, after a few days--
because every morning
the train stopped.
They took out dead bodies
and threw them out.
And eventually, I had a
place where to sit down.
And whenever I talk
about it, I feel so bad.
But anyway, eventually one
day, the train stopped.
It was early, early morning.
Through the slits of the truck
I saw the word "Auschwitz."
I didn't have a
clue what it was.
And beneath it said, "Oswiecim."
So I said, Oswiecim?
Somebody shouted out, that's
a little town near Krakow.
Anyway, they opened those gates.
They told us to leave
everything there
because everybody's
going to showers.
So we had to jump off.
And people was, of course,
beaten because they were slow.
They couldn't get up,
they couldn't get down.
They had problems.
Anyway, we were one
of the few transports
arriving in Auschwitz-Birkenau.
And it was Birkenau.
And Birkenau was an
extermination camp.
But we were one of the few
places that they took us.
We were the whole of the lot
that were going on the metal
factory to Germany.
They called out our names,
we went to one side.
But there were other
people on the train.
They had to go
through a selection.
So it's like a--
right now, like a--
and they were running down.
And they were showing
left, right, left, right.
All the people that went to
the left, the old people,
disabled people, children,
women holding babies.
The German guards came over to
those women holding the babies
and asked them to put the baby
down and go to the other side.
Can you imagine a
mother doing it?
She wouldn't do it.
They tried to rip that baby out.
If they didn't succeed
by ripping it out,
they even shot the baby
and sometimes the woman.
Anyway, when it was finished,
they took them to the showers.
That's what they told them.
They took them to a room.
They put those people in.
They shut those doors.
A German guard went to
the back of the building.
There was a little window.
He opened the windows,
threw some Zyklon B gas.
Within 20 minutes, all those
people in that room was dead--
women, children,
babies, disabled people.
And you know, and I always
want to ask people a question,
but I don't because I know
I won't get an answer.
How could a human being do that?
Dinner time, knowing what
he was doing during the day,
and having his
wife and children,
and having his
dinner, and listen
to the music knowing what
he was doing during the day?
And I'm talking about
doctors, lawyers, engineers,
not some scum.
And people say to me--
most of the time,
they say to me,
how come they did,
that the soldiers,
the officers had families?
Some of them did, even the
boss of the group, the officer.
He had his wife and two children
10 meters away from the gas
chamber.
And there is some
people here today
that have been recently
to Germany, to Poland,
to visit Auschwitz.
Anyway, when they were
finished with them,
they took us to the showers.
We had to undress.
When you come out
the other side,
you get your clothes back.
They shaved everybody, then
they put disinfectant on us.
And then we went to the shower.
Then they gave us--
not our clothes back.
But I'm sure some of
you have read the book
or saw the film, "The
Boy in Striped Pajamas."
That's what we got.
For some reason--
up till today, we
don't know why they didn't
tattoo a number of us.
But I had a number--
84,303.
And I can't get
rid of that number.
I wish I could forget it.
I don't remember my debit
card or credit card,
but I remember that number--
84,303.
And even, unfortunately, my
grandson made a film about me.
And I never knew.
And one day I said to
him, what's the film?
What is it called?
He said, "84,303."
And I can't get
it out of my mind.
Anyway, when they
were finished with us,
they took us to barracks.
And they said we are
very lucky, because there
is room for 500 people, and we
are about 500-something, 50,
because we are not enough.
If it would have
been more people,
we would have slept four,
five, six in a bunk.
I don't know how it
would have been possible,
but that's what they told us.
We slept three to
a bunk, you know?
There was three bunks,
one on top of the other.
And then when you got
up in the morning--
before that, in the evening,
they gave us something to eat.
And they said, you'll
get it in the evening,
and you get it in the next day.
And nothing for lunch.
So it was a piece of bread
and some black coffee.
I never drank coffee in my life.
And the grown-ups were saying,
that's not coffee, [INAUDIBLE]
In the morning, we get the same.
So we went to sleep.
In the morning, we woke
up, and we were starving.
We thought we'd get
a piece of bread.
No.
We had to be counted.
So they started counting us.
But there were people missing.
But nobody could
escape from Birkenau,
because Birkenau was almost
a camp inside the other,
right next to Auschwitz.
They had electrified
fences and guards on top.
You could not escape.
So when the guards went into
the room, they found the people.
Some were dead, and
some were still alive.
Those that were still
alive, they took them out.
They took them to the--
they said they're taking
them to the hospital.
We found out later there was
no such a thing as a hospital.
There was one little thing
that the German doctor
was committing crimes.
He was killing babies, throwing
babies into ice-cold water
to see how long
that baby will live.
When they operated on
children and babies,
if the baby was still alive
after the operation, when
it got better, they did
a different operation,
just playing with lives.
And he was one of the
officers that-- unfortunately,
I just forgot the name,
it'll come back to me--
that survived even
after the war.
AUDIENCE: Mengele.
Dr. Mengele.
ZIGI SHIPPER: Dr. Mengele.
See?
Unfortunately, I don't remember
things so much, you know?
And that doctor--
now, how can a doctor,
when he swore to save lives,
to kill children, babies?
I'll never understand it.
Anyway, when they
were finished, they
gave us the piece of bread.
And they didn't allow us
to stay in the barracks.
But it was still end
of August and so on.
And we stayed there for a while.
You couldn't stay longer than--
they told us, the people told
us that were working there--
than three months.
Either they sent
you to another camp,
or to a labor camp
working, or they took you
to the gas chambers.
So we knew we've got problem.
But after a few weeks,
some officers came
and they said they
were looking for us.
Anyway, they're going to
take us to Germany to work.
So they said they'll
come after a few days.
So they came after a few days
and took us all to another camp
called Stutthof that's
near Gdansk, near Danzig.
And there, I had a problem.
I never thought before
that I was going to die.
I saw my friends
dying next to me,
but I never thought I was
going to die, except this time.
Because not only no food, very
little food, but the weather.
It was already getting
very, very cold.
And the only way to keep warm--
a few of us, quite a few
of us, made a [INAUDIBLE]..
And we stayed hot.
We were holding each other.
And eventually, the
people from inside
came out so that the
others can get warm.
I went inside, I went outside.
I didn't have a clue
what I was doing.
Anyway, carried on
like that for a while.
And then one day, some
officers came and they said
they want 20 boys to
go to work on the--
somewhere there.
I don't know-- on the
line, or whatever.
So they asked for 17.
So I couldn't do anything.
When they said 16,
I lifted my hand.
Anyway, they took me as well.
And they said they'll pick us
up in about three days time.
So all the grown-ups said,
why did you volunteer?
They're going to kill you.
I said, I'm going
to die here anyway,
so maybe it will be better.
They wouldn't have it.
Anyway, they came for us.
They took us on
passenger trains, us 20.
We went to a small camp.
There was only 1,500 people.
And we worked on a railway line.
And there, there was
always a chance to steal.
All we were interested,
those friends of mine,
was of food, nothing else.
So we used to steal.
Sometimes, we had so much, I
couldn't eat my piece of bread.
So I went to sleep
without eating.
But I couldn't go to sleep,
because that piece of bread
worried me.
I had to eat it up.
Anyway, one day
some young people,
not the ones that came
with me, stole some tobacco
that was going for the
Germans fighting the Russians.
We were very near
Russian [INAUDIBLE]..
So they caught them.
There was five or
six, I don't remember.
They put them in a room.
They keep them for six days
without food, without water.
When the time came for
them to be let out,
they took us to come to that
place, and we found gallows.
So we know what's
going to happen.
And a German officer
started reading out,
for stealing those cigarettes
or tobacco, whatever
it was, that whole number of
men that stole it will be hung.
All the boys had
jumped off themselves.
They wouldn't give the German--
that's what we assumed--
give the Germans
the satisfaction
that they should do it,
that they will do it.
So they all jumped off.
And that is a thing that
I cannot forget, you know?
Whenever I think about
it, I talk about it,
I can see young men
standing there alive.
And two minutes
later, they are dead.
Anyway, us they
took back to work.
And after a while, they said
the Russians are coming.
They took us to another camp,
also to Stutthof back again,
but only for a short time.
Then they took us--
one day, they came.
They said we're
going to Germany now.
We'll go on coaches.
And there were
nice coaches came.
They took us to Gdansk,
from Stutthof to Gdansk.
And from there, we had to walk.
Unfortunately, I
was already ill,
but there was no
chance to get anything.
But I couldn't walk.
My friends helped me to walk.
Because when we came
to the Polish port,
they said, from now
you will have to walk.
Every concentration camp,
every extermination camp
that was liquidated,
went on a death march.
Why was it called a death march?
Very simple.
Either you walked, or you died.
Because if you
fell, they shot you.
If you said you can't
walk, they shot you.
But I couldn't walk.
And I said to my
friends, I can't walk.
Neither can you.
But no, they said,
we won't leave you.
So we walked, we walked.
And people is being
shot all the time.
You could hear the noise.
And my friends
would not let me go.
Eventually, we
came to a German--
not to a port, but that
was near the water.
And we had some also Danish
and Norwegian prisoners of war.
They are much stronger than us.
They didn't-- in their
homes, they weren't--
they could walk.
They could do anything.
They could eat.
And they said to us,
we are near the water.
We must be near a German
port, because the guards
left for the night.
Anybody that wants to can
run away and hide yourself
somewhere.
It's all farms, they said.
But there are some buildings
where the people live.
You can steal, you can have
this, you can have that.
Why don't you go?
So I said to my friends, go.
They wouldn't leave me.
Anyway, the Germans came.
And like I said,
my friends took me.
And they said it's
only 15 kilometers
that we've got to walk.
And I looked at my
friends, 15 kilometers?
It could be 15 centimeters
I couldn't walk.
And 15 kilometers,
it's 10 miles, roughly.
They said, you know,
you'll have to.
You know what will happen.
I said, I know, but
I've got to do it.
They said, we will not do.
We will go walk with you.
So that was the second
time they walked with me.
And walked-- we walked, walked.
All of a sudden, we
came to a German port.
And there was three
enormous big ships there.
And they told us
two of the ships
are already full with prisoners.
You go in the third one.
So we all thought we know
what's going to happen.
They take us to the
middle of the sea,
and they are going to
explode those boats.
And the funny thing was, about
five years ago, four years ago,
I saw a documentary
on Sky Television,
and it was called
"Hitler's Titanic."
It was about one of those boats.
So we are waiting, waiting.
All of a sudden, there
were planes above us.
So we were sure they were
British, or American,
or Russian planes, because
those soldiers told
us, those prisoners, that
the war is near the end.
They couldn't be Germans.
And we were hoping
they'll start bombing.
And one boat was hit.
One of the ships was
hit with people on it.
Most-- not most,
but a lot of them
jumped off those ships, most
of them to their deaths.
It carried on like
that, carrying on.
And they was screaming
and shouting.
Then it stopped.
We couldn't see fire.
We could see smoke.
And we were sitting
there, and sitting there,
and sitting there.
And all of a sudden, they
started screaming and shouting
and doing with their hands.
We couldn't understand what's
going on, till somebody
said to us, look around you.
You're surrounded
by British tanks.
That was 3rd of May, 1945
that I was liberated.
The first thing I
did-- on my fours,
I crawled over to the tank.
And I needed water, and
I didn't know what to do.
I couldn't speak English.
I could speak German,
Yiddish, Polish.
Anyway, I said, "wasser,"
which is Yiddish and German.
And he understood.
The soldier understood,
the British soldier.
He gave me something.
I don't remember what it
was, but there was water.
I drank it, and then some
British officers came.
And they said, do you
know you are free now?
This is a German port,
and you'll be living here.
You're here now, and
this is a German port.
It's full of food.
Go and help yourself.
And there is no German
soldier or anybody.
Everybody you will
see is British.
So my friends left me with
one of the boys or two.
The others?
Well, they came back
with masses of food.
We could not stop eating.
This was one of the worst
things that the British soldiers
did to us.
They meant well.
They saw us.
They could see how--
but they didn't realize
that we'll eat so much.
And we did.
There were people dying, dying
in the middle of the road
with a piece of
fruit or something,
because they came with
the masses of food, boxes,
even, that were supposed to be
given to the American prisoners
of war.
And they didn't give them.
When we opened them,
there was tins of meat,
tins of pineapple-- didn't
know what a pineapple was--
and things like that.
And it was carrying
on and carrying on.
Anyway, they took us.
Eventually, my friends
found where to stay.
There was a little
house, which we
assumed it was German, for
German prisoners if they
were put there.
Anyway, we were there.
I went to sleep on a white
sheet on a single bunk.
And I said to my friends,
look at it, white sheet,
first time in five years.
I got up in the morning.
I said to my friends,
look at that, it's black.
They said, do you remember
last time you washed?
I said, three months
ago, six months ago?
I don't know.
But when I looked again,
it wasn't just dirt.
It was lice.
My clothes were
saturated in lice.
Anyway, some officers came.
They said anybody that is not
well, we'll take to hospital.
Not one of them said
a word, because we
remembered Auschwitz-Birkenau.
And we didn't.
When they did the second
day the same, the third day,
I lifted my hand.
I couldn't speak.
I stayed three
months in hospital.
Eventually, they started to
teach me to walk and so on.
And then I met a nurse.
And I said, what
was wrong with me?
Said you had typhus.
I didn't have a clue
what typhus was.
Now, how did I
survive being there?
How did I survive having typhus?
No medication, no
nothing, not water, even.
How did I survive?
When I ask a priest,
when I ask the rabbi,
they give me an answer.
They said He wanted you.
Well, being 89 now, I
should be friends with God.
So they asked me, do
you believe in God?
I said, look, I don't know.
I will not tell you
that there is no God.
I don't know.
I don't know.
So that's how it is.
You know?
So like I said, I got
better and better.
Then when nurse came,
it was already German.
The doctors were still British.
They said you'll soon
be able to leave.
I said, where am I going?
They says camp very near here.
So I said, a camp?
I've had enough of camps.
I'm not going to a camp.
You are looked after the British
and American Army, so go.
It's not fenced.
You can go to town.
You can do anything.
I said, good.
What have I got to wear?
I've got nothing.
You burned my clothes.
She said, don't worry about it.
I'll see what I can do.
However, you've got
an English boyfriend.
Maybe he'll give me something.
A few days later,
of all things, she
comes with a British uniform.
So she says, I'll
have to alter it.
I laughed.
It was that big.
So she says, but you've
got to promise me
you'll never wear that
uniform in the city,
or town, or anything.
I promise you.
We are very good liars, I
must tell you, all of us.
[LAUGHTER]
So she took it away.
She came back with underwear,
shoes, everything--
everything new.
She said, do you
remember what you said?
I said, yes.
Two boys came for me.
They picked us up.
We went to that camp.
It was most of us youngsters.
We stayed there, looked after
by the British and Americans.
Then they took us
to a little village.
We learned a little bit.
There was only
about 40 kids of us.
And then we heard that
Britain and Sweden
is allowing 1,000 children
to come to their country.
You could also go to Palestine.
But there, you had to wait.
So when they came to me, they
said, where do you want to go?
Do you want to go to Sweden?
I said no.
Do you want to go to Britain?
No.
Or England-- I didn't
know what Britain was--
England?
No.
So where do you want to go?
I'll go to Palestine.
But they said, you
know, it's a quota.
You'll have to wait and wait.
I said, so I'll wait.
I've got nobody in London.
Why will I go to
England or Sweden?
Anyway, I didn't.
From there where I
was, they took us to--
we're waiting.
And then they took
us to Hamburg.
Unfortunately, I
needed an operation
because I hurt myself.
It was my own fault, and
I shouldn't have done it.
It wasn't nice.
Anyway, I hurt myself.
They took me to hospital.
I was there for two weeks.
Two friends came
and they gave me
a letter from London, England.
Who will write to me
from London, England?
I opened that letter,
written by a woman in Polish,
and I started reading.
And she says she had a son
living in the same place
that I used to
live, the same name,
except it was a different age.
And so I said, it
can't be my mother.
I said, good.
Then when I read
on, she says she
remembered when her
son was 2, 2 and 1/2,
burned himself on
the left wrist.
Maybe there's still a sign.
Could I have a
look at the wrist?
Now, that was in 1945.
So I looked at my wrist.
From the distance,
you might not see it.
Can you see this?
And I looked at my two
friends, and I said,
you know, it is my mother.
And she wants me to
come to live with her.
And I looked at my
friends, and I said no way.
I said I don't know the woman.
She's a stranger.
You are my family.
Because all those kids
were going to Israel.
No, I said.
I won't do it.
When I came back--
they brought me back
to where we stayed.
We are looked after again,
British and American,
and a Jewish brigade
which was part of Britain.
They went mad with me.
How can you not go?
Look at your friends.
They had brothers and sisters,
and they have got nobody.
And funny enough, two of
them or three of them,
but two of them I'm
very friendly with
had brothers and sisters.
And they've got
nobody, nobody at all.
They have not mothers,
fathers, uncles, no one.
Anyway, they decided--
they went mad, like I said.
And I said yes.
It took me nine months.
Eventually I came
to England, to Hull.
A man met me on the boat.
On the boat, he
came over, started
speaking in Yiddish because
I couldn't speak English.
Then I found out he is
the husband of my mother.
He said, when you get your
cases, we'll go on the train
to London.
I burst out laughing.
What cases?
What?
I had a paper bag with
photographs that we took.
All we did is take photographs.
Anyway, I came to London, got
my mother and my stepfather.
We lived very near here--
Tottenham Court Road.
This is a funny thing, you know?
And whatever I wanted,
they gave us, both of them,
but I missed my family.
The first six months
were hell for me.
One day, I was
walking in the street.
And I met somebody
and he said, you
know those kids
that came in 1945
that Britain allowed 1,000
children and only 700 came?
300 and something
came to Windermere.
And they took them all.
They never brought them
to big cities or towns.
They brought them there.
So then, why don't you go there?
They've got a club
in [? Belges ?] Park?
Go there.
Opposite, there is a church.
On Sunday or Saturday night,
they have dancing there for us.
The church allowed us to come.
I said, all right, I'll go.
So I went one Sunday,
knocked on the door.
They opened the door.
I couldn't speak, but I spoke.
The sentence I uttered
is written today
in a book called "The Boys."
I said, at last, I
found my family again.
And some of them I didn't even
know, and they were my family.
And all of us were,
and my life changed.
Everything changed.
I started to work in
tailoring, and I hated it.
And I started going
out with a girl.
And I said to her, when
the boss will tell me
I can make a suit or a jacket--
they didn't make trousers--
I'll give up.
And I did.
Anyway, eventually, you
know, I couldn't tell you
what a life I had.
I had the most wonderful,
wonderful life.
And I'm always asked by
young students, young ones,
did you ever meet Hitler?
I said no.
Thank god, I didn't.
But today.
I would love to meet him.
It would do so
much for me to show
him my family of two
daughters, four grandsons, two
granddaughters.
You think it's the end?
No.
Three great-grandsons.
And I'd like to say to
him, you see my family?
You tried to kill six
million Jewish people, one
and a half million
kids, children.
You killed over a million
Polish Christians.
You made 50% of the
Gypsies of Europe.
All those people, we must
not forget all of them.
And I don't, you know?
So I would, but I
cannot tell you.
Eventually, like I
said, I got married--
the greatest thing in
my life happened to me.
I can say that because
my two children,
are-- especially one not here.
When I got married, I went
into stationery and printing
business right up to 2002.
Even my business was
five minutes from here.
That's why I had to give
up, because the rent got--
[LAUGHTER]
Some friends of mine
took over the business.
And I was involved in it--
no working, nothing, but I
made some money out of it.
Anyway, I cannot tell you about
the greatest thing in my life
was, and still is, when my wife
said to me after a while that
she's pregnant.
And then she went to hospital.
She was ready to produce.
It was in St. John's Wood.
It was run in them days not by--
doctors, naturally, but
not ordinary nurses.
It was a very religious nurses.
AUDIENCE: Nuns.
Nuns.
ZIGI SHIPPER: You see,
I forget certain names.
AUDIENCE: Nuns.
ZIGI SHIPPER: Yeah.
Danes-- yeah.
Anyway, and when I
came up at night,
you weren't allowed to be
there when the baby was born.
But I knew that it was
a daughter, a girl.
And the nurse came over to me
and gave me that little bundle.
I couldn't stop crying.
I was choking.
I went over to my wife
and I said, at last, we've
got something that is ours.
And like I said today, I'm
blessed with two daughters.
And the young ones
always say to me,
when she said that, don't say
it, because what about me?
Not me, only you other.
And you know, my two daughters,
they drive me completely crazy.
[LAUGHTER]
They ring me twice a day.
Have you eaten?
Yes.
Have you got food for tonight?
Yes.
I'll bring you some soup.
No, you don't have to.
All the time.
One, which some of you know, one
of my daughters, [INAUDIBLE],,
gave up work about
a month ago to look
after her mother, my wife,
because she's not a well woman.
Unfortunately, she's got
a problem with memory.
And I think I'm getting with it.
You know, she remembers
what happened 60 years ago,
where we went on holidays, who
was the manager of the hotel
and the name of that.
But she won't remember
what she had for breakfast.
So you know what that is.
Anyway, but I could never
thank the British people enough
for what they did for me.
I'm here.
Like my little Elliott,
my little grandson once
said to me, Grandpa, you
are so lucky to be alive.
So his mother said
to him, you too.
[LAUGHTER]
He couldn't understand
it, you know?
You know?
So we're alive.
And you might think, for
a Holocaust survivors,
some of us who are survivors
did not agree with me.
I don't like, especially
young children,
especially the
earliest I speak to
is year nine, which
is 14, 15, and so on--
I don't want them
to go home crying.
That won't help.
And the parents would say,
why did they do that to you?
Why did they make my
daughter or son cry?
And I am, believe
me, when I leave,
I don't live the Holocaust.
I never talk to my
children about the things.
They ask me questions, yes.
Anybody that asks me, yes,
but I don't talk about it.
And I've been so lucky.
I cannot tell you enough.
If they'll show you--
I gave them a thing to show, and
they don't know how to do it,
you know?
[LAUGHTER]
You know who you people are.
[LAUGHTER]
So I don't want you
to go home crying.
Just think of it and talk about
it, especially youngsters.
Talk to your children.
Talk to your grandchildren,
because it's so important.
It's not only for Jewish people.
Look what's happening
in the world--
killing, killing, and killing.
And I would like to
know who ever won a war.
Nobody wins a war.
We all lose.
Britain won the war.
Look how many thousands,
and thousands, and thousands
of people died.
So none wins a war.
Why?
We're going to die anyway.
Eventually, we'll die.
I've got another
50 years, you know?
[LAUGHTER]
I'm only 89.
But no, I love it
when they say to me--
a lot of people grown
up, teachers and so on--
they say, would you like
to live somewhere else?
[SNEEZE]
Bless you.
Would you like to
live somewhere else?
No.
Wouldn't you like to
go back to Poland?
I'm a foreigner there.
Wouldn't you like
to go to Israel?
I like going to Israel, but
I will not leave Britain.
This is my country.
I feel so British, you know?
I would never, never.
So now I'm talking
to the grownups, yes.
But you see, I told you I
wouldn't like to live anywhere.
But if any of you want to buy
me a home in Monaco, the south
of France, I will accept it.
[LAUGHTER]
So you cannot tell
you what I like I had.
And I could stay here
till tomorrow morning,
which you don't want to.
And most of you will
say I've got to go back.
So thank you.
Thank you, very much.
[APPLAUSE]
Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
All right.
Thank you, very much.
Thank you.
Thank you.
[INAUDIBLE]
[APPLAUSE]
ALI: Thank you, Zigi,
so much for sharing
your amazing experiences.
I'm just going to hand
over to James now, who's
going to moderate our Q&A. We
have the mic in the middle,
so please feel free
to walk up to the mic
and ask any questions
that you may have.
JAMES: Thanks, Ali.
And thank you again, Zigi.
It's an amazing
story, and really
inspirational and eye-opening.
We thought it would be good
for people in the audience,
maybe, to ask you questions.
ZIGI SHIPPER: No problem.
No problem whatsoever.
JAMES: We really
appreciate your time.
So I'll start off
with a question.
And hopefully, other people--
ZIGI SHIPPER: The first one is
always a bit difficult, even
with grown-ups.
You should see with little kids.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[LAUGHTER]
JAMES: I don't see
any hands shooting up,
so I'll ask you
the first question.
How did you, or
how do you feel--
what was it that has enabled you
to have such a great attitude
now?
Because I think all of
us picked up on the way,
as you spoke, that you
don't gloss over everything.
You're very honest about
everything that happened,
but your attitude
is so positive.
And I think it's hard to imagine
how one goes through that
and comes out with the
incredible attitude you have.
ZIGI SHIPPER: Well, maybe
I don't know whether it's
the world-- maybe I was lucky.
How to survive, nobody
can tell you how.
It's an impossibility
to tell you.
Because he was strong?
He was strong?
He was just as bad.
He couldn't.
He couldn't.
Nobody could survive
because of it.
So it was just pure, pure luck.
And like I said before, maybe
God wanted you to survive.
That's what they tell me.
Maybe a priest says that.
Maybe.
I don't know.
You know?
But no, I went through life.
And you know, what
is more important,
I don't live the Holocaust.
As some of us, we were lucky,
because we were in a group.
We used to talk about it.
Where were you in the camp?
Where were you?
Oh, mine was worse.
One was better.
I used to get better.
The German officers were
better if they were--
we didn't know.
We were never miserable,
very few of us.
A lot of them that
didn't talk about it
and didn't mix with
Holocaust survivors--
when they grew up and they
are so on, they got married,
they could never forget
it in their brain.
They lived it, you know?
But no, most of us
had a good life.
There were 99% of the
people that came here
and with a group, we
all did pretty well.
Some did better.
Some well-off.
I mean, I've got a picture
I wish I [INAUDIBLE],,
which most of you--
not most, but some
of you might know--
Ben Helfgott.
When he came here,
he didn't know
he had a sister because
his sister went to Sweden.
And eventually, he
found his sister.
And he had family, but not
from Poland from when he lived.
He lived 45 kilometers
from where I lived.
In a small town, he lived--
45 miles.
When people went from his
place-- or kilometers--
to my place, they used to say
goodbye to the whole families,
because it was so far.
Nobody had cars or anything.
So no.
So he had a sister
and-- you know?
But some of my friends
that were together,
what came with Ben together
in 1945, they had nobody.
The only people-- we had even
those that are alive today,
we have brothers and sisters.
I'm nearer to my friends
than I would have been nearer
to my brothers and sisters.
JAMES: That's amazing.
I think that's really--
I think it's-- yeah.
I think we all--
AUDIENCE: Hi.
Thank you so much for coming
and telling your story.
And we're very lucky
to have you here.
My question is about
your grandmother.
What happened to her?
And when was the last
time you saw her?
ZIGI SHIPPER: I'm so pleased
you asked me, because I always
say that later, because I never
say that in the ordinary time.
Also, my father--
well my father,
I found out that he went
back from Russia to Poland.
He went to Warsaw
in 1941 or 1942.
And he couldn't get into the
Lodz ghetto, because Lodz--
"Lodge"-- was Germany.
They called it
Germany where Warsaw
was occupied by German troops.
So he got into Germany.
That's what I found out.
From then on, I have not found
out anything about my father--
whether he was killed,
whether he died in Warsaw,
or whether he was taken away
to other extermination camps.
Because it wasn't just
Birkenau, you know?
It was so many different ones--
Chelmno, it was Treblinka,
Majdanek, Chelmno, Sobibor.
All those places lived
only 10 months or a year.
After a year or 10 months,
they made it a garden
because they didn't want
German people to know,
their own people should know.
And my grandmother, I found out
about two years or three years
after the war that she died
of the day of the liberation
of Czechoslovakia.
And she didn't even
have one day of freedom.
And I would have loved
to have had at least once
put my arm around her and
say, thank you, Grandma,
for bringing me up.
I didn't have that
opportunity, no.
AUDIENCE: Thank you
so much for sharing.
I have two questions.
One, you say you don't
grieve the Holocaust
and your experience.
But how much is it on your mind?
Do you ever daydream about it?
Do you ever dream
about it at night?
And then also, how
long did it take
you to feel comfortable to
speak to groups and be so open?
ZIGI SHIPPER: Well, I feel
very comfortable in my life.
I never talk about it.
I never think about it.
I think about it, naturally,
because I've got so many times
to go to places.
I go not to Great Britain,
I don't go to London.
Very seldom that I get London.
It's only lately I get
the Royal Bank of Scotland
that I went to.
And then another one
with the name of a man
that he was involved--
the building in
the city of London,
it's all to do with lawyers.
AUDIENCE: Ernst & Young?
ZIGI SHIPPER: What was his--
AUDIENCE: Ernst & Young?
ZIGI SHIPPER: [INAUDIBLE]?
AUDIENCE: Ernst & Young?
ZIGI SHIPPER: Yeah, it
could have been him.
I don't know that I
spoke to [INAUDIBLE]..
Listen, can you
imagine, me, HET.
I work with HET mainly.
And HET-- you know,
Holocaust Educational Trust--
they had a lot of
people talking.
And when come to go on the
train, very few wanted to go.
When I said to
somebody from London,
I said, I'm going to
speak to Brighton.
He went, Brighton?
I said, it takes an
hour and a bit by train.
What's the matter with you?
No.
When I said I'll go to Glasgow,
or Edinburgh, or even further
then, Edinburgh, three
and a half hours by car
from Edinburgh--
I go to the mountains
where the mountains are.
And they're beautiful, you know?
I go there.
I used to go with my wife.
Now I go with my daughters,
because she can't do it.
And you know, it's
a funny thing.
I found we are all the same.
We're either good or
bad, nothing else.
It didn't make any difference
whether you are Jewish,
whether you are Muslim,
whether you are Christian.
We are-- 95% people are good.
It's just the 5%
that are not good.
And unfortunately, all
of us, the good ones,
we only stand by.
We do very little about it.
But I am so happy about the
third generation is involved.
And I'm talking now like
Holocaust Educational Trust.
They've got student ambassadors
now that they go to schools
and talk, to their own school,
if they're still there,
or to other schools
where they live.
Thousands and thousands of
ambassadors, and 99 and 3/4
are not Jewish.
Because how many Jews?
265,000.
So it's not that--
you know.
And you know, how many
Jewish schools have you got?
Do you know, one
day I was talking
to somebody in Liverpool.
After I spoke-- oh, my son
would love to hear you.
So I said, where
does he go to school?
King David School.
Oh, I said, so you are Jewish.
She said no.
King David School now has got
less than 50% of Jewish people.
Manchester has got
the same problem,
because most of the young
people want to come to London.
It's about the
life or something.
AUDIENCE: My grandmother was
also a survivor from Lodz.
And she died about 10 years ago.
She spoke quite a bit
when she was alive.
And one of the things that's
been on my mind since then
is the fact that no one's
really telling her story now.
And what would you
like to happen?
Like how would
you see your story
continuing to be told, either by
your family or by other people?
And what would you like those
of us who will be around--
what would you like us to do?
ZIGI SHIPPER: People
have got to realize
that all the fighting and
all the killing won't help.
Why do you have to fight?
Why do you have to--
you are British, you are
British, you are English,
you are Chinese, you are German.
And people ask me, do you
hate the German people?
Why should I hate the
German people of today?
You know, because your
great-grandfather,
your great-great-uncle committed
a crime, it's not your fault.
And I pray.
I pray of it.
I always say that please,
please don't hate people.
They are knowing me.
Everybody knows me,
Zigi that doesn't hate.
And one day my daughter said,
Dad, sometimes you tell lies.
I say, what have I done now?
I won't tell you
the name, but she
says, what about the
footballer you hate?
[LAUGHTER]
So I said, you're quite right.
I don't hate him anymore.
I don't like him.
[LAUGHTER]
You see?
Why hate people?
Why?
We're all the same.
And WE'RE all going
to die eventually.
Please don't hate.
And I honestly don't
hate the German people.
Because first of all--
so the people say that are very
clever, and they say to me,
oh, so you forgive them, do you?
I said, hold on a second.
I never said that.
I don't forgive the
people that did it.
I couldn't forgive.
Even if I would
want to forgive, I
feel that I'm not
allowed to forgive.
God can forgive.
The people that are
dead can forgive,
but I feel I cannot
forgive the people.
But I've been many
times to Germany--
not on holidays, by the
way, because for me, there's
nowhere to go on holidays.
You know, I've been quite a few,
and nobody has ever come to me
and apologized and
said, I'm sorry.
I was in the SS, I had to
do this, I had to do that.
I said, all right.
But nobody has ever
came to me to say that.
I was in Hamburg, and there
was a group of people there
and working for the Holocaust.
And I said to them, have
you got any Jewish there?
No.
I said, why not?
He says, because I
feel guilty that--
I would feel guilty a
Jewish person should do it.
We want to do that.
And they were helping
a lot, you know?
And now there's a
lot of Jewish people
living in Hamburg,
most of them Russians
that went to live there.
So no, no.
But you've got to just
talk and talk about it.
AUDIENCE: I wonder how
you would recommend
teaching younger generations
now about the Holocaust
so that it stays very
present in their mind.
ZIGI SHIPPER: They
should talk about it,
talk about it all the time.
It's not a question of
going to Auschwitz again
and all the rest of it.
But if you're going--
I never said to anybody,
not even my family,
you must go to the camps
to visit the camps.
If you want to go, if you feel
you should go, you should go.
But I would never, never
tell people you must go.
But you must read about it.
You must go to places
about it, talk about it.
If you've got children
already 11, 12, talk about it.
Because after 11,
they already teach,
but the teaching is very little.
I must tell you, I've been
to Scotland to places--
never mind they didn't know
anybody from the Holocaust that
was in a Holocaust
place, they've never
seen a Jew, which is normal.
They live there up
in the mountain.
There's no Jewish
people living there.
So they never-- but to
me, we are all the same.
It doesn't make any
difference whether we are Jews
or whether we are Muslim, we
should not hate each other.
I mean, most of
them, their religion
is very similar to our religion.
So why do we hate each other?
JAMES: Thank you so much.
I think that we couldn't have
heard any better from anyone
better.
Your energy and your
spirit is incredible.
I hope we're all as
youthful as you are at 89.
Thank you again for your
time and for your insights.
ZIGI SHIPPER: It's
been a pleasure,
a pleasure and an honor, a real
honor to have so many people,
like what's-her-name, to
bring me here to speak to you.
Because this is
the thing, and this
is most of what was done
today by the third generation.
JAMES: Yep.
ZIGI SHIPPER: The second
generation never did that.
They never even told us,
go to a school to speak.
It had to be groups.
But here now-- when I went to
the other, which I told you,
in the city of London
and to places like that,
was all done by young people.
Like, look at it.
JAMES: We've got the message.
Thank you very much.
We will all take your message
and keep the torch going,
but thank you.
ZIGI SHIPPER: If later--
now that I'm
finished, but anybody
that wants to speak to
me to ask me the question
whether I'm still religious, I
will answer you this question.
[APPLAUSE]
