the Occupation of the territories
do you think it is moral act?
I see this subject from a very egoistic perspective
I think about Abu-Yaniv
which is me, but living in Palestine
what would happen if I would live there with my values and my ideas?
what would I think about the occupation then?
it's most likely that I would support it
why would you support it?
they stop you at checkpoints, they kill your family
how can you support that?
because the alternative will stop me in checkpoints even more, and will kill my family even more
the alternative, is arab or muslim government
we have many reference countries
this is not an utopia, we know exactly what it looks like
I would greatly prefer occupation as a Palestinian
my top preference would be to become an Israeli Arab
I would beg for annexation
I would wave the flag of Israel every day and sing Hatikva until you annex me
you would be killed
not sure, maybe they would also understand that this is the right way to become part of Israel
I guess many of them would like to live under Israeli law as well
it is enough to be only suspected in cooperation with Israel to be hang on a high tree there...
ok, so may be I would keep silence, I don't know their society well enough
but in my heart I would support the occupation
I would hope for its expansion and full annexation
but from our perspective as occupants, this is immoral act
we control life of other nation
we make restrictions for them, and you know...
if they want to create a country and kill each other, they are welcome
how is this our matter?
I don't think we should prevent them from creating a country, they should be blessed for such initiatives
I just don't see any such initiative
don't you read newspapers? don't you see that they are trying to make a peace agreement which will let them to create country of their own?
why do they need agreement with anybody in order to create a country? why not just create it?
because Israel doesn't let them to
how can you create a country, where meter from your neighborhood there is a Jewish settlement?
they can build and you can't, they can drive on the road and you can't
what kind of country are you creating here?
seems like the road and the neighbourhood next to me are not part of my country in such situation
so what you say, they should create a country and declare war on the settlements?
no, they should create a country on the lands they control and not on the lands they don't
but you can't call it country
there are Palestinian cities, which are separated by settlements
yes, there is are technical issues that settlements created, we should solve them
so you are against settlements, right?
I have no opinion about settlements except all the money they take from me
Palestinians should get continuous territory for their country not cut by settlements and roads only for Jews
sounds like you are supporting the peace negotiations
I am not supporting any negotiations with terrorists organizations, if this is what you are asking
there is a gap between what you said before and what you are saying now
you said that you are supporting creation of the Palestinian state
no, I shouldn't create any Palestinian state
if they want to create the Palestinian state, bless them
but It doesn't mean that I must accept some terrorists organization as a representative of that state
but he is the representative
it doesn't matter, I don't have to accept it
moreover, some say that in Israel the government is my representative
the government that wants to take half of my money and vaporize it, and take me by force to the army
no, they are not my representatives
they are as well terrorists as the representatives of PA
this way there never will be peace, peace you make with enemies
you don't wait for some Abu-Yaniv to come and make peace with you
I don't think that peace is made between states at all
peace is made between people, as soon as they stop trying to kill each other, the states will align
are you saying that it is Abu-Yaniv from Ramallah fault?
it is fault of all the others, who are not Abu-Yaniv
who will kill Aby-Yaniv if he dares to speak this way in arabic
you accept the easiness they will go and kill a man for too pacifistic ideology
and they somehow not responsible for there is no peace?
ok, now you're talking about terrorists organizations
they didn't come from nowhere
one can say that settlements and occupation have created these terrorists organizations
one can say it, but it is historically incorrect
what do you mean? suppose you are living here in Shenkin
comes someone and occupies your country
installs fence around you, doesn't let you out
than comes someone and tells you: "I will free Shenkin, I will fight this occupation!"
here you created a terrorists organization, and you will also support it
but this is not what happened, the story you just told is not the history of Israel
most of the territories that Jews allegedly "conquered"
is a territory that they created from nothing, as simple as that
there were swamps, Zionists came and drained swamps, now they live there
so, agree with me at least that where once was a swamp
no one can claim ownership except Jews who appropriated it
or may be mosquitoes
may be mosquitoes should create a terrorists organization and explode on us
so we would negotiate with them
about territories that have been actually seized
as a part of peace agreement there may be some solution
but there is historical obsolescence, I know...
what about all the lands Cyrus the Great seized from the Jewish Kingdom?
maybe Persians should return us some territories?
maybe we should exchange territories?
a few neighbourhoods in Tehran, and we will forget what Cyrus did to us
I can't understand how do you decide if it is ok for us to settle here
so ok, there were swamps and we drained them
but the land as a whole, who owns it?
how can you decide if it's an Arab or a Jew?
the one who appropriated the land, owns it
what does it mean appropriated? the land is there
the land is there, but it was useless, the one who made the land useful, owns it
for example: there was a swamp, I drained it, now it is my privately owned territory
what if the land is ready for usage to some extent
not a swamp you drained, but let's say some sands
is it in use or can be in use?
it can be in use
the first to use it owns it
ok
this way Zionists got most of the lands of Israel
I surely accept the fact that some territories are not homesteaded, but actually seized in occupation
this is immoral and should be corrected in a peace agreement
the problem is that there is no one to make the peace agreement with
so, this makes our conversation a purely theoretical
when you were seeing peace negotiations in early 90's
were you optimistic? Were you thinking to yourself: here finally we have some progress
no, because our partner for peace negotiation was the terrorist from Tunisia
but Ezel and Haganah were terrorists
so what you say, are you against them also?
do you think it was right for Britain to negotiate with Ezel about who will rule in London?
ok, but do you treat Ezel and Haganah as terrorists organizations?
yes
are they not ok on your opinion, isn't it ok that they fought against british occupation?
it was not ok to blow up the hotel in Taba, no, it is not ok
the war can be moral if it is defensive
it is difficult for me to see these actions as defensive
maybe I just don't know enough
do you make any distinction between the occupation in 48 and the occupation in 67?
no
I treat it from the individual perspective
if a Palestinian can prove that he's been expelled from his land
Israeli court should pass sentence according to justice and private property principals
but there is no way we let a collective represented by terrorists organization to make an agreement with us
it should be on an individual basis
same goes for settlements
if they prove they were the first to appropriate the territory and did not expel nor rob anyone, then the settlement should stay
otherwise, it shouldn't
