SASHA SAGAN: I'm so
happy to be here.
The title of my book is "For
Small Creatures Such as We--
Rituals for Finding Meaning
in our Unlikely World."
And the first part of the title
comes from a line in the novel
"Contact," which is the
only work of fiction
that my dad ever published.
My dad was the astronomer
and educator Carl Sagan.
And he and my mom Ann Druyan,
who is a writer and producer
and science communicator,
collaborated
on many books of non-fiction
essays, the television
series "Cosmos."
But "Contact" was the only
sci-fi, the only fiction
that they wrote together.
And they originally
wanted it to be a movie.
And as they started
to develop it
and hope to go through the
process of writing the script
and getting a studio behind
it and all those things,
the process turned out to be
much longer than they expected.
And in the meantime,
they wrote it as a novel.
And as with everything that
they created, they collaborated.
And it was actually my
mom who wrote the line
that the title of
my book comes from,
which is, "For small
creatures such as we,
the vastness is bearable
only through love."
And that became the family
mantra for a philosophy
that my parents communicated
to me and to millions
of other people--
this idea that if we're tiny in
an enormous universe, if we're
here for the blink of an eye,
and if the scientific method is
the way that we try to
discern reality from fiction,
and the more
information we have,
the smaller we are in the
grand scheme of things--
well, then, what do we have?
What can keep us
from falling down
the existential crisis
of that sense of panic
that we can all feel when
it's like, oh my goodness,
we're so little.
We're here for a second.
The universe goes on
in all directions.
We're in this tiny,
out of the way planet.
Well, what do we have?
And the answer that they gave
me was, we have one another.
And we're together
at this moment.
And that filled me with a sense
of real emotional fulfillment.
The word spiritual has
this religious connotation,
and I grew up in a
very secular household
where science was the
pathway to understanding.
And not just to-- facts get
maligned as cold and hard.
And we have this relationship
with provable things as though,
well, they're either-- we are
either very blasé about them
or--
they just have this
unpleasant connotation.
But my parents raised
me with this idea
that the real, provable
elements of life
were beautiful and
stirring and could give us
that sense of connection
with one another,
with our place in the grandeur.
An example I often think
of is this idea of,
if you were to
tell a small child
there is a secret
code in your blood
that connects you
to your ancestors,
to everyone who ever lived,
to the earliest humans,
to the first life on Earth,
and whether you believe in it
or not, it's there, and it can
tell you who you're related to
and how closely--
if you have a couple great
science teachers in school,
you might get that beautiful
thrill of those moments.
But so often, the
things that are--
like DNA, so often the things
that we learn at a young age
are presented in this way
where the wonder and awe gets
taken away from it.
And the word spirituality has
this religious connotation,
but I think it also can describe
that feeling that wells up
in your chest when you
have a deep understanding
of our place in the universe
or how we're connected.
And so that's how I was raised.
And I found it very fulfilling.
But secular humanism, or
the scientific worldview--
it's missing some of
the elements of culture
that human beings around the
world and throughout time
have relied on.
There are not holidays.
There are not recipes.
There are not the rituals that
make up the rhythm of life.
And the other thing
that it's missing
is a framework for how to
deal with loss, with grief.
And I lost my dad when I was
14, and this sent me on a path
to try to understand, how can
we come to terms with some
of the changes that
are part of human life
without relying on
the supernatural?
And even though I grew up
in a very secular household,
we are also Jewish.
And so some of the
traditions that
were passed down to
me from my ancestors
were still honored
in our household.
We still had Passover, but we
had it in a very secular way.
We still had Hanukkah.
We still lit the
yahrzeit candle,
which is a candle that
burns for 24 hours
that you light on the
anniversary of the death
of someone you loved.
And this combination
of connecting
with the traditions passed
down to you, even if they were
passed down by people whose
theology does not match yours,
but finding a way to do
it in a secular style
and still honor them is
what really interested me.
And so as I started to research
holidays and traditions
and rituals around the world,
I noticed some parallels.
So I'll read a
little passage to you
that addresses some of the--
I'll preface this by saying
my great-grandparents were not
just Jewish, they were orthodox.
And when my grandfather, who was
the first person in his family
to go to college, came home
one day from university,
he had that nagging
feeling in his chest
of having to talk to
his dad about something.
And he gets into their home
in-- very modest home in Queens,
in New York.
And he finds his father
davening, praying.
He waits for him to finish.
And he says, Dad, I have to
talk to you about something.
I'm not going to
keep kosher anymore.
And I'm not going to go to shul.
And I'm not going
to go to temple,
because I don't believe.
I don't believe in God.
I don't believe in
any of the teachings
that you and Mom have
brought me up with.
And his father looked
up at him and said,
the only sin would
be to pretend.
And that also became
a family mantra.
And those two events put
me on the road to this.
"My great-grandparents' beliefs
gave shape to everything
they did.
I have different
convictions than they,
but I envy the way meaning
infused their lives.
Through my secular lens,
I see a different meaning
in their traditions.
In a way, it's
really science that's
been inspiring
rituals all along.
Beneath the specifics of our
beliefs, sacred texts, origin
stories, and dogmas,
we humans have
been celebrating the same two
things since the dawn of time--
astronomy and biology.
The changing of the seasons, the
long summer days, the harvest,
the endless winter nights,
and the blossoming spring
are all byproducts of how
the Earth orbits the sun.
The phases of the moon,
which have dictated
the timing of rituals since
the dawn of civilization,
are the result of how
the moon orbits us.
Birth, puberty,
reproduction, and death
are the biological
processes of being human.
Throughout the history
of our species,
these have been the miracles,
for lack of a better word, that
have given us meaning.
They are real, tangible
events upon which
countless celebrations
have been built,
mirroring one another even among
societies who had no contact.
As I see it, here
we are on this rock
that orbits a star in a quiet
part of the spiral galaxy
somewhere in the great wide
vastness of space and time.
On our rock, these events,
changes, and patterns
have an enormous impact
on us Earthlings.
They are important to us.
We have spent a lot of
time trying to decode them,
to manage our expectations,
to predict what's coming,
to grow, to thrive, to survive.
No matter when or
where on Earth we live,
we humans tend to schedule
our most important events
around the same times.
Sure, Christmas
and Hanukkah often
fall around the same
week, but so does
the Dongzhi Festival in
China, Umkhosi Wokweshwama
among the Zulu, Yalda in
Iran, and Soyal among the Hopi
of the American West.
And it's not just certain
times of the year.
It's certain times of life, too.
Every culture, from the
Amish to the Maasai,
has coming of age rituals
that, at their core,
are the same as any bar
mitzvah, quinciñera,
or sweet 16 you've
ever been to--
not to mention the vast
array of human ways
to welcome a newborn, marry
a couple, or honor the dead.
Ecstatic joy to deepest sorrow--
the heart of these rituals
lies beyond belief.
While our calendars have shifted
and our climates have changed,
politics and superstitions
vary, somewhere
in the depths of
whatever you celebrate,
there is very likely a kernel
of some natural occurrence.
We needn't resort to myths to
get that spine-chilling thrill
of being part of something
grander than ourselves.
Our vast universe
provides us with
enough profound and
beautiful truths
to live a spiritually
fulfilling life.
Nature is full of
patterns, and we humans
love finding them, creating
them, repeating them.
That's at the core of language,
math, music, and even ritual,
which is the repetition of
words or actions deemed worthy
of representing something
bigger than ourselves.
Some rituals are very private.
Some are very public.
Some are so commonplace we don't
even think of them as rituals.
My view is that all over
the world and across time,
these are all a form of art.
An elaborate performance
or a secret poem--
all vital in their ability to
help us face the nature of time
and change, life and death,
and everything else we cannot
control."
So my hope is that this
year, as we approach
the holidays, whatever
your family's background is
or whatever your
philosophy is, even
the most devout people
still have to make decisions
about what they're
going to emphasize
and what they're going
to let fall away.
Whatever you're doing
right now, your ancestors
were doing it differently
1,000 years ago.
And I think especially when
you have young children
and when you come
together with a partner,
you have to make
these decisions about,
what are you going to do?
What are you going to do
for the sake of tradition?
What are you going to do
because it reflects your values?
What are you going to
do just because you
love it and it brings you joy?
And I think especially
at this time of year,
there is something very
profound about the way
that we navigate this.
A friend and I were just talking
about well, do you do Santa?
And how do you do it?
And can it be sort of like
when you see people dressed up
for Halloween and you say,
look, they're dressed up
as witches or whatever?
Or you say, oh, that's
really Santa, or this isn't.
And is there a way to
navigate these things
where you're paying homage
to what you loved growing up
or what your parents taught
you, but still putting forth
the idea that really
reflects what you believe?
So I'll tell you,
in our family, we
have Jewish
traditions on my side
and Christian traditions
on my husband's side.
And we do a secular Hanukkah.
And we do a sort of
secular Christmas
with my husband's grandparents.
But what we also do is, on the
night of the winter solstice--
not in a woo-woo way,
but we just say, look.
Tomorrow, the days are going
to start getting longer again.
We live in the
northern hemisphere.
The planet rotates on an axial
tilt. It's about 23 degrees.
And because of that, the
length of days change.
And it's been really cold
and it's been really dark.
And that's hard.
But tomorrow, it's going
to start getting better.
And regardless of what you
believe, it's going to happen.
It requires no faith.
And it's wonderful.
And I really think that alone
is cause for celebration.
And there's a-- in so many
of our celebrations, when
we peel back the specifics
of time and place,
there is a real, tangible,
scientific phenomenon.
Solstice and Equinox-- coming
of age is a biological change.
There's so much underneath
that's provable and real
that's worthy of celebration.
And I think we can all
find a way to do that.
Even if it feels very cutting
edge and new and strange,
I think deep down,
it's, in a way,
the most traditional
approach to celebration.
Because before any of the dogma
or specifics of the present,
we all were looking
up at the night
sky trying to get a handle
on where and when we are.
And that's the root of
so much of what we do.
Thank you.
And I'd love to
take some questions.
[APPLAUSE]
AUDIENCE: Our
son's name is Sagan
after the values expressed in
an essay of Carl's, so your talk
was [INAUDIBLE], by the way.
SASHA SAGAN: Which
is so beautiful.
AUDIENCE: So I texted my wife.
I'm like--
SASHA SAGAN: Thank you.
AUDIENCE: I texted my wife.
I'm like, oh, do you have any
questions that we should ask?
And she said-- so her
question was kind of funny.
She said, what do you consider
the most important blessing
your parents taught
you to be that you
think should be passed down
from generation to generation,
and why?
And I responded,
well, she kind of
answered that as the
first thing she said.
It's sort of the
title of her book.
[LAUGHTER]
So I'll ask that question,
or, if you already did,
then what's the second
most important blessing?
[LAUGHTER]
SASHA SAGAN: Well,
it's a great question.
And I think that, yeah,
the title of the book
is definitely inspired by one.
I don't know how I would
necessarily rank them.
But another one that I
really find so powerful
and something I
think about a lot
is this idea that in
science, as in life,
we have to tolerate ambiguity.
And this idea that
sometimes we don't
have an answer to a question,
and there's this very strong
urge--
it could be something really--
like the minutia of daily
life, of you sent a work email
and you're waiting
for the response,
or these deep, profound
philosophical questions.
And if we don't have
enough evidence,
if we don't have
proof either way,
that we have to keep that
space open and tolerate
that sometimes very
uncomfortable feeling
of not knowing
what the answer is.
And I'll tell you a very
short story that's in my book.
So besides my parents,
the other adult
who lived in our
household growing up
was named Maruha Farhay.
And she was my nanny.
And she was wonderful.
We loved each other.
And she was very
devout Roman Catholic.
She had been a cloistered
nun in the Andes Mountains.
And she left the convent, but
not because of a lack of faith.
I go into it in the book,
but I won't right now.
But anyways, she
was a true believer.
And she didn't drive,
so my mom and I
would take her to church every
Sunday and stuff like that.
And her priest, Father Tony,
would come to dinner sometimes.
Anyways, I knew that
what Maruha believed
and what my parents believed
were totally different.
And I was a little bit of
a slightly morbid child,
I would say.
And one day, I went to my
parents and I was like,
Maruha says that when you die,
you're with God in Heaven.
And you guys say that it's
like you're asleep forever
without dreaming.
Who's right?
[LAUGHTER]
And my parents in unison, like,
joyfully said, nobody knows.
And that was so
revelatory for me,
because it was like,
if we don't have
an answer to this
question, we're
not going to just put
something there because we--
it's so painful, sometimes,
to just have this open space.
And I think that's something
that really stayed with me
and was so valuable and
something that I still
think about all the time.
So I hope that answered your--
I hope you can relay
that to your wife.
But thank you so much.
That's a great question.
Please thank her for me.
AUDIENCE: So one of the
stronger things with tradition
is not only that you
do it in your family,
but it's shared
among the community.
No matter where you go
within your community,
the rituals are the same.
How do you do the same
thing in the secular science
world, where it's totally new?
SASHA SAGAN: That's
a great point.
And I think identity and that
feeling of belonging in a group
is so ancient and so important.
And I would say that I
think the more that we
look at the roots of
so many of our rituals,
we can find that connection
when we go somewhere else.
And it's not the
same, but it's also
not the same when you
travel to a different city.
And there might-- or
a different country
or a different community.
There's always variation.
And I think that the
reason that we have rituals
is because-- my
mother always says,
there's no refuge from
change in the cosmos.
We're trying to process
change all the time.
Theres' entrances and
exits in life, the changing
of the seasons, all this stuff.
And we're trying to
find a rhythm that we
have to create for ourselves.
And sometimes, in many cases,
the infrastructure historically
has been religious.
But I think more and
more, you see people
creating it for themselves
in these secular ways that
maybe don't seem like
they're religious,
or don't seem like rituals.
But if you get together
with your friends
or you have some community
thing that you do every week,
or you go every Thursday night
to the bar with your friends
after work, something
like that-- those
are these markers of time.
And I think that even if you're
approaching them in a secular
way, if you feel
connected to some ritual
that your great-grandparents
did or your grandparents taught
you and you go to a different
place, you can still find that.
And you can still find
that connection to them.
But maybe the parts of
it that you emphasize
are different than the parts
of it that they emphasized.
AUDIENCE: I can think a
handful of other authors
in the secular community
who have struggled
with this idea of a missing
cultural portion to secular
humanism.
SASHA SAGAN: Yeah.
AUDIENCE: Do you
find inspiration,
or have you seen
other people who
have answered this
question similarly
or that you think have done a
good job in filling that gap?
SASHA SAGAN: I think
that often what happens--
I mean, when there's
a big change,
the pendulum has
to swing very far.
And I think there can be a
tendency to throw the baby out
with the bathwater sometimes.
And I think as time goes
on, we may come to a place
where we think, there's
some of this stuff that's
really valuable
to us, and there's
some of this stuff
that doesn't stand up,
and we're going to
let it fall away.
But there are a lot of
writers that I admire who
write about this kind of thing.
Alain de Botton has the
School of Life in London,
which has a interesting parallel
where it's this place where
people get together and talk
about these deep philosophical
questions, but not in
a religious context.
And I think there's
something there.
And I think that you
find more and more--
like, there's so
many private women's
clubs that are sort
of shared workspaces,
but also, there
are lectures that
are popping up all over that
have this element to them, too.
While not explicitly secular
opposed to religious, one way
or the other, it's
still creating
this sense of community
where people get together.
And even book clubs
and all these things
that people create
for themselves where
they're asking
intellectual questions,
philosophical questions.
And it seems to be on
an upswing right now.
I think that there's a
correlation between that
and people becoming
less religious
but still needing that
sense of community
and that sense of a
regular, steady place to go.
So I think that it's very
interesting to see that.
And I've seen a lot of
discussion about this idea
that, well, if you
reject some elements,
it doesn't necessarily mean
that every element needs to go.
But, yeah, there's definitely
some interesting discussions
about that.
AUDIENCE: Having said
that you and your family
have some religious
background and also
some secular background, what
are some of the aspects of each
that you find most
meaningful in your life?
Like, is there something about
coming from a Jewish tradition
that you find particularly
meaningful for you
or your family?
SASHA SAGAN: Yeah, absolutely.
After two or three
generations back,
the only thing I know
about my ancestors
is that they were Jewish.
I don't know their names
beyond a certain point.
I don't know what
villages they came
from beyond a certain point.
But I know that thing.
And so every year,
my husband and I
have a secular Passover Seder.
And the traditional
Seder is very theistic.
But there are lots
of versions of ways
where the emphasis
of the story becomes,
if this is a story about people
escaping slavery and oppression
and finding freedom, then that
becomes a story about, well,
right now, people are still
oppressed and enslaved
metaphorically and literally by
oppression, poverty, racism--
all of these things.
And so it becomes this call
to action as, well, what
are we going to do to make
things better and more just?
And I think having
that and having
some things-- specifically,
the springtime holidays are so
wrapped up in the nature
of what spring is.
There is the theme-- and you
see it in Easter, too-- of,
wow, that was really close.
That was almost so bad.
But I think it's going to be OK.
And it's like, that's
what spring is.
And for eons, we
didn't know if we
were going to make it
through the winter,
if everybody in your
group, in your tribe
was going to survive.
And when you got to that
point where it was like,
it looks like the
weather's better
and the food is going
to be plentiful again,
that was intrinsically
worthy of celebration.
And I think there's
something about that
that you see in the religious
traditions around the world
that have a spring equinox--
close to the spring
equinox holiday.
And so, yeah, there's stuff like
that I really love and connect
to.
But and then there's
stuff that we've just
made up because it was right for
us and we love it and it's fun.
And I think that we're-- that
every family is doing that
on some level, whether it's--
you're explicitly talking about
it or not.
AUDIENCE: So this is a
vague, open-ended question.
So first of all, it's
really interesting
that you said that
"Contact" was originally
supposed to be a movie
before it was a book.
As is so often the case--
I mean, I love the movie.
[INAUDIBLE]
But what really got
me about the book
was, first of all,
that it seemed
like the most intelligent
discussion I've
read of science and religion.
And I chose and, not versus.
But it was kind of the science
versus religion debate wrapped
up in a story.
And I just thought
that was-- especially
when I was-- whenever I was--
in the '80s, I was a teenager.
When it came out--
I don't remember when
the book came out.
But I thought it
was really cool.
But then at the end of the book,
in the epilogue, the computer--
the [INAUDIBLE] computer
discovers way, way,
way deep in pi, this circle--
expressed in base whatever,
whatever they said.
And he wrote, like, the circle
means that the universe was
put here on purpose.
At the end of that
story, the conclusion
is that they basically
prove that the universe was
created on purpose.
Which is just thought was
a really interesting way
for a scientist like Carl
Sagan to end that book.
And I just wonder what
you can say about that.
SASHA SAGAN: Oh, I'm like, I'm
going to have to ask my mom.
[LAUGHTER]
That is a really interesting--
I think I've--
I think that is a
question for my mom, who
would be able to answer
that much more deeply
and was much more--
I mean, I was--
that book came out when
I was a very small child.
And I've read it
and revisited it,
but they worked on-- as they
did with everything, they--
she was very deeply involved
in every step of that.
And she could give
you a much more--
I'm going to ask her.
I can't wait to find out.
I'll find a way to
get you that answer.
That's a great question.
AUDIENCE: You
talked a little bit
about changing
traditions over time.
Have you thought at
all about how we can--
I see a lot of value in,
for example, museums.
I see a lot of
value in preserving
things over generations and--
aside from passing
these things down as
if we were leaving more of
a secular world perspective,
how do we preserve
these traditions
in a way that is meaningful
and in a way that they can
be shared with other people?
Google thinks a lot about
universality of information.
SASHA SAGAN: That's a
really good question.
And I think a lot about the--
Greek mythology is
something that we're all
obliged to learn in school.
And it's so much in
our language today.
I mean, so many
gods are preserved
in the names of space
missions and sneaker companies
and things.
And here is this
religious tradition
that, as far as I know,
has no devotees left.
But are there any people
who believe in Zeus?
Do we-- really?
AUDIENCE: Yeah.
SASHA SAGAN: You really-- oh.
OK.
I didn't know that.
That's amazing.
But a much smaller group
than they had around 400 BC.
And it's still so much part
of our language and ideas.
And I was totally obsessed
with Greek mythology
when I was a kid.
I know lots of
other kids who had
different areas of
mythological histories
that they were fascinated with.
And they carried on in this way.
And I agree with you.
When you go to a
museum and you see--
sometimes, we're so
removed from the idea
that these were religions
and that people really
believed this when you
see Osiris on a tomb.
And I think that
the ways in which we
preserve these things--
I think it makes it--
the things that we're currently
starting to maybe let go of,
the ways in which we
find to preserve them--
I think it will make it easier
to let go in certain ways,
because it's very hard
to feel like you're
the last person in your
lineage to do the thing
that everyone's been doing.
But if we can find a way that
preserves this where it's
something that either
can be witnessed,
maybe in some virtual way
for generations to come,
even if people
aren't participating
in it the same way--
I think that that's a
really deep, good question
and something that is
really powerful in terms
of what an effect that
may have on the way people
start to change.
That's a really good question.
AUDIENCE: I suppose
in some respects
you've already answered
this by the way
that you were talking about it.
But have you looked into
the modern pagan traditions
and polytheist traditions much?
SASHA SAGAN: Yes, I see.
Yes.
I-- yes.
In terms of the question of do
people still believe in Zeus,
I sort of meant continuously
since that time.
But in terms of a Renaissance
of those elements,
yeah, I have read to
some degree about that.
And there certainly
is an overlap
between some of the stuff that
is in modern pagan culture
and what I'm talking about.
But that-- what I--
from what I've--
I think there's an element
of that that still connects
to some stuff that's sort of
supernatural that is a little
bit different-- unless I'm
misinformed, which I may be--
that is a little bit different
than what my area of focus is.
Is that fair?
I mean, tell me-- you may know
much more about this than I do.
Tell me.
AUDIENCE: I have some friends.
But I think that the main--
it varies a lot,
is my impression.
So there's some people who
have a pagan tradition which
doesn't have any belief
in the supernatural
and more use it as a focus
for self-reflection and inner
thought.
And then there's
other people who
believe that there's some
sort of in-body concept
sort of thing.
And then there's some
people who literally
believe in the legends.
SASHA SAGAN: As
with any religion,
there are those three groups.
AUDIENCE: Yeah.
SASHA SAGAN: Yes, yes.
Absolutely.
Well, I'm-- let me know--
if there's a specific book or
something that you recommend,
I'm always open.
I want to hear
recommendations for learning.
Yeah.
Yeah, there is-- you
do-- you're right.
There is some overlap there.
But it just-- it seems
to be a tradition that
is not emphasizing the
scientific elements as much.
AUDIENCE: It is definitely
a different language.
SASHA SAGAN: Yes.
That's fair.
AUDIENCE: Even if it is
talking about the same things,
it has different--
SASHA SAGAN: But that's a good--
that's a good point.
And maybe that's
something that is
worth me having a discussion
with some people who
are more involved in that.
That's a really good point.
AUDIENCE: If you look at society
from a technology standpoint,
I would say that we have grown
too fast, in a way to speak,
over the recent decades.
I feel like that, in
some way, also aligns
to what you're talking about.
As we get overwhelmed
with information,
social media,
whatever it is, I feel
like our understanding of the
world is completely downed.
Like, everything else is
telling us, we know more.
You can do more.
But at the same time,
they're telling you
you have to do more.
And I feel like that disconnects
us more with everything.
I think we have less tangible
understanding on anything
now than we did before.
The rapid growth that
we've been seeing--
is that also affecting
our understanding of,
I don't know, like
"spirituality"?
Your less-codified
version of "spirituality"?
Like, I would have to imagine
that the more we get sucked
into social media, the
less understanding-- we
don't even look at the
stars half the time.
SASHA SAGAN: Oh, yeah.
AUDIENCE: How does that impact
our ability to adapt-- let's
say, referring to
the same argument,
that we're letting
go of some religions
and taking something
else, or using something
else to satisfy that need.
Are we growing so
fast that we can't
find things that are tangible
enough to replace that with?
SASHA SAGAN: That's a
really good question.
I would argue that it starts
almost with the Industrial
Revolution and moving into
cities and not being in your--
leaving your community
and all these things.
The question, though,
about the relationship
between technology
and spirituality
is such a good one.
And actually, a friend of mine--
I don't know if you
know Greg Epstein.
He's the secular humanist
chaplain at MIT and Harvard.
And he has a column
in "Tech Crunch"
about how technology is a
kind of religion, in a way,
and how it has--
I mean, even the language of
"followers" on social media
is so explicit in its
parallels to this.
And there are certainly--
and the idea that these promises
that historically have been
religious that technology
has provided, like,
in a form of-- you
know, somebody dies,
you can still see them.
It's like a ghost.
And for most of human
history, that wasn't possible.
There are all these ways in
which technology has provided,
has made good on promises
that historically religion
has made and maybe not
been able to deliver.
And so I think there
is something there
that is a really deep and
profound question, that there
is a parallel there.
But there's also this other way
in which technology, I think,
has made our lives sort
of more traditional,
because it's like, we used to
live in tribes where everybody
knew what everybody
was doing all the time.
And then we moved to
cities, and we were so
removed from everyone.
And now, we all
know what everyone's
doing all the time in this way.
And I grew up with
my best friends,
and they're still
my best friends.
And we're together
in this way, even
though we live all
over this continent,
that we wouldn't ever have
been without technology.
We "see" each other and "speak"
to each other every day.
And that's the way we would
have lived in a village
until very recently.
And so I think there's
a lot in there.
But, yes, I think
that it's true.
This is a very big
change in our culture.
And I think there is a parallel
to the philosophical and
spiritual changes that
people are having, too.
It's a really
good, big question.
AUDIENCE: I have a quick
follow-up if no one else--
SASHA SAGAN: Yeah.
AUDIENCE: Do you
have any particular--
like, you mentioned rituals,
habits, daily things?
Something like a day
where you just unplug?
SASHA SAGAN: This
idea of Shabbat,
where you are unconnected
to the outside world--
until electricity
and all these things.
And I think the prevalence
and popularity of meditation
and mindfulness--
which meditation
comes from a religious
tradition but has taken
on this totally secular
life of its own--
is because people do crave that.
And I think that's
totally related to this.
And I think it's like anything.
Like I was saying, the
pendulum has to swing.
You go all the way
in one direction,
you're going to have
to get to a place
where you come back
to a more even middle.
[AUDIO OUT]
SASHA SAGAN: That's
a good question.
I think it's up
to the individual.
And I think it's up to
the particular event.
You know what I mean?
And I think there's
a way to do it
that's not necessarily heavy
handed, but still celebrates
the real information
that we have.
And I talk about in the
book, like when I was a kid,
the best thing that I could
do in my parents' eyes
is to ask you a question
to which they did not
know the answer.
And that we'd have
to, in those days,
go look it up in the
Encyclopedia Britannica,
because we did not have the
wonderful thing that you all
make.
And that became a ritual--
this idea of getting
more information
and finding out more.
And then you would get,
oh, well, what's that?
And what does this word mean?
And what's this person
I've never heard of?
And then you'd follow the
thread to something else.
And that is explicitly
more understanding.
But then there are
other things that--
if you're having
a party or you're
having an event
because it's December
and you live in the
northern hemisphere,
and it's cold, and dark,
and you need some merriment,
you don't have to go
into the axial tilt.
You know what I mean?
That's up to you.
I would argue for not
making it too heavy handed.
But I think that
there's something there
where it's like finding the root
of what you're doing and why,
and not just going
through the motions
because you feel obliged.
And actually finding out,
well, what is this about
and why are we doing it?
And especially if you
have small children
and you want to explain
what's going on here,
I think that there's a way to do
it where it's the through line,
but it doesn't rob us of the
sense of festivity and pleasure
that we all crave.
AUDIENCE: I'm curious if you've
put much thought into how
to use these sorts of rituals
to build a wider community.
I know you said you see your
interactions with people that
are across the country as very
much similar to a small village
life, but there is
definitely something
to being with people in
person that you can't really
get through--
SASHA SAGAN: Absolutely.
AUDIENCE: --chat platforms
and social media.
SASHA SAGAN: Absolutely.
Yes.
I completely agree.
And I do talk about--
like, I lived in New York
most of my adult life.
And I would have
a monthly dinner.
And it didn't start
out as I'm going
to start this whole
thing that I'm
going to become really
dogmatic about planning and all
this stuff.
But it became this
thing that was really
important to me and my friends.
And people had connection--
made connections and friendships
and worked together
and all these things
that were born out of it.
And, yeah, I think that
you're absolutely right that
the in-person dynamic--
I think we are very
removed from it.
And that's something that I--
and I write this in the book.
For me, one of the hardest
things about being secular
is you have to really
work to congregate.
And that is really something
that we're missing.
And I think you do see stuff
popping up that fills that.
There are secular quasi-church
things that you see, or very,
very reformed--
churches that are almost
secular that you see especially
in large cities.
And like I said, different
clubs that people
are members of, sports,
things that people do.
But I think that you're right.
I think that there is
still something missing
in the culture that
gives us that feeling of,
well, we're in it
together, and we're
going to see each other
even when we don't really
feel like it.
You know what I mean?
Unlike a birthday party
or something like that.
And I think, for me, one of
the really useful and positive
elements of that is--
a version of that
is volunteering.
And it serves the same
purpose in this way that--
I mean, that's the thing I
admire most about religion
is the social pressure
to do good works.
And it's like, if you go
somewhere and volunteer
every week, or whenever you
can, you see the same people.
You share some value, probably,
if you're all there together.
And you're working
towards something.
And you build these
relationships over time.
And so I think that can
be an element of that.
But, yeah, I agree.
There is something
that we haven't quite
figured out in secular
life to fill that void.
AUDIENCE: Hi.
I haven't read your book,
as well, so [INAUDIBLE]..
SASHA SAGAN: That's fine.
[INAUDIBLE]
AUDIENCE: I'm curious whether--
SASHA SAGAN: No pressure, guys.
AUDIENCE: Yeah.
Coming from an
Eastern tradition,
we haven't had that
much of a two cultures
distinction between
science and religion.
And the two have been
much more entwined,
including non-theistic
traditions
have been very much part
of Eastern religion.
Do you talk about that
in any way in your book,
or do you address that?
SASHA SAGAN:
Specifically the idea
that this is a Western problem?
Because I agree with you.
I mean, that is a
totally valid point.
Is that what you mean?
AUDIENCE: Yeah, and
do you talk about how
the two have
coexisted, including
non-theistic and theistic
traditions have coexisted
in Eastern philosophy?
SASHA SAGAN: Yes.
I think there are definitely--
yes, there are elements of that.
And there are elements of
holidays and traditions
that started out as religious
and transformed into something
that's more cultural.
I think-- and this
is something that's
been totally
co-opted in the West,
but something like
yoga, which is
a very widespread, popular
thing that comes out
of a religious
tradition but now has
taken on a totally other,
secular, maybe philosophical,
but not religious life.
Yes, that is something that
is a really good point.
And I think you're
right-- this idea that it
is more of a Western
problem, the idea
that there is this friction
between these two things,
rather than there being some
more openness to overlapping.
[APPLAUSE]
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
