Rob Markman: What's up, everybody?
Welcome back to ‘For the Record.’
Y’all know me, it's your host Rob Markman.
We've got a special episode today.
I know I say that every week, but it's really
a special episode because we're discussing
the anniversary of a very special piece of
work.
On September 15th, 2009, Kid Cudi dropped
his debut album ‘Man on the Moon: The End
Of Day’ and we're here to talk about it.
We're here to break it down on the 10 year
anniversary.
First up, we have from Genius News our senior
correspondent, my man Jacques Morel.
Man, how are you doing?
Jacques Morel: Hey, y’all.
Rob Markman: This is your first time on ‘For
the Record,’ right?
Jacques Morel: First time on ‘For the Record.’
Rob Markman: I'm glad you finally accepted
my invitation, man.
I invite you every week, and you never come
through.
Jacques Morel: You know, next time.
Only keep doing it.
Let's not make this the last one.
Rob Markman: Oh, yeah. No doubt.
Good to have you.
Next up, she is no stranger to the show.
My homie Naomi Zeichner, artist partnership
lead at YouTube.
Naomi Zeichner: What's up, Rob?
Rob Markman: What's up?
Again, with the fire ... It's hoodie season.
Rob Markman: Hoodie season.
Naomi Zeichner: It's always so cold in here,
Rob.
Rob Markman: Hoodie season.
And finally, last but certainly not least,
he's the co-host of The Grass Routes Podcast,
one of my favorite podcasts with Erin Simon.
Shout to Erin, but today we've got Brandon
Hall here with us.
What's up, brother?
Brandon Hall: Nothing much, man.
Thank you for having me.
Rob Markman: So we want to talk Kid Cudi,
right?
Man on the Moon.
I want to go back ... This album, or Kid Cudi
in general, has been like a people's champion.
Right?
There's maybe bigger albums that you could
talk about from that era, The Carter III coming
front of mind, coming out in 2008 ... maybe
a year earlier, and just the commercial juggernaut
that that was, not that Kid Cudi was any slouch.
But it might not have gotten all of the commercial
acclaim.
But it feels like one of the most impactful
albums in the last 10 years, Kid Cudi: Man
on the Moon.
Jacques, where were you when Man on the Moon
dropped?
Jacques Morel: Oh, man.
I was about 21 or 22, going to St. John's.
Rob Markman: I didn’t ask about your age.
We're not all going to say our age.
Jacques Morel: Okay, cool. Cool.
Fair, fair.
I was going to St. John's University, and
I remember I was going through some shit at the time.
A few months before that, my father had passed
away.
I was not the biggest Cudi fan after A Kid
Named Cudi, but I remember listening to this
album and it immediately struck a chord from
the jump, from the time it came out.
I was at DJ Booth at the time, and I just
remember listening to it on repeat.
And even now, listening to these records,
I still feel those same chills, that same
energy I felt when I first started playing
it.
Rob Markman: And we'll get into it about the
specifics of the album, but hearing about
you losing your father, that was a piece of
this album, and Cudi talking about coming
of age without his dad and very emotional
in that way.
So I can already see how it may have connected.
Naomi, what do you remember when this album
dropped?
What do you remember about ‘Man on the Moon?’
Naomi Zeichner: It's so funny, because I was
like ... That fall, I had just graduated from college.
I had just moved to New York.
I was working seven days a week, so I was
not in the blogosphere at that moment, but
I remember very much when the mixtape dropped
a year prior and when the Crookers remix dropped.
I was a college student at the end of college,
crazy reading blogs everyday.
You could still download MP3s on blogs, and
just all of the energy around that remix and
around remix culture in general at that time.
Moving to New York for the first time ever,
going to these Williamsburg clubs that people
were talking about, the scene.
It was cool to wear a fitted hat at the time.
You know?
Naomi Zeichner: Not long ago, but also many
moons ago.
I really remember Kid Cudi as that Crookers
remix, right?
As one of those golden MP3s within the pile
you were hoarding on your iPod Classic.
For me ... I think we'll probably talk about
this a bunch, but that mixtape was the moment.
I frankly missed a little bit of this major
label rollout, because I was just not ... I
was out of commission.
Rob Markman: You were grinding.
You were trying to pay that New York rent.
Naomi Zeichner: Yup.
Rob Markman: Brandon, man, talk about where
you were.
There's a shift that's happening in hip hop
around the time of Kid Cudi.
I know we talk about it a lot in the light
of 50 Cent versus Kanye West in 2007 with
Graduation, but Cudi was a part of that movement,
as well.
What's going on musically that you notice
right now?
Brandon Hall: Right now, present day?
Rob Markman: 2009.
We’re in 2009 right now.
Brandon Hall: 2009?
A lot of drug use.
Rob Markman: Yeah.
Brandon Hall: A lot of hidden-
Rob Markman: A lot of different drug use,
too.
It was a lot of drugs that hip hop wasn't
used to either talking about or experiencing.
Brandon Hall: Yeah.
I think Cudi is one of those people where
when his project first came out, he talked
a lot about drugs.
He didn't get scrutinized for it.
Whereas you have these newer rappers now that
get killed for it.
I think that whole project was one of those
times where there was a transitional phase
in music where things started to get a little
pretty.
No one liked the tough guy anymore, like the
50 Cents of the world.
You know what I mean?
Rob Markman: The alpha male.
Brandon Hall: No one liked that.
People liked the flashy people, people liked
people that were emotional and revealed themselves
to be a little bit more transparent emotionally
where, I think, it allowed a lot of fans and
viewers to connect with them.
Whereas a lot of other artists, they struggled.
I think he was one of the people that ... Yeah,
he ushered in that wave of just being free,
saying "Hey, I have problems.
Hey, I'm going through things.
Hey, I have a drug problem.
But fuck it, I'm here."
Rob Markman: Right.
Naomi Zeichner: It was interesting, because
he wasn't saying that on Twitter yet or on
Tumblr.
Right?
So it was this really unique era where people
were starting to talk about these things,
but it was really ... Music was the form to
talk about it, not necessarily your merch
or your pop up shop or your Twitter feed,
right?
So it was this really specific, weird, in
between time that I think is really important.
Rob Markman: Yeah, no.
It's dope.
And blogs like the ones that I was going to,
the 2DopeBoyz of the world, the Nah Rights,
the Miss Infos.
You heard that new-
Jacques Morel: Exclusive zone.
Brandon Hall: Exclusive zone.
Rob Markman: Exclusive zone and all of that.
You would go to hear these new records from
artists that the mainstream wasn't quite on
yet.
Rob Markman: And Naomi was right.
We didn't have Twitter to vent.
That was a sounding stage for a lot of the
problems.
It's funny, what Brandon talks about, because
I do want to make the distinction ... I think
Cudi does usher in an emotional era with this
project and ‘A Kid Named Cudi’ that came
before it, but that's always been a part of
hip hop, right?
I always say this, you've got to give the
credit.
Scarface is talking about mental health, Joe
Budden was very emotional with his records,
though he may have rapped in a more aggressive
tone.
I think the tone shift ...
Brandon Hall: The tone shift, again, even
Joe ... A lot of the projects that he put
out or worked on, he was angry.
But those are real emotions.
A lot of times, you would never know.
I think that's why I connected with Cudi's.
Here we are, I'm working with Joe and he's
doing all of these amazing things and we're
making music, but he was hurting.
I never really knew until we laid the record.
You know what I mean?
Rob Markman: Right, right.
Brandon Hall: The same thing with Cudi.
I feel like once Cudi ... Once that album
for me, Man on the Moon, once it came out
it was like ... Wow, I was touring at the
time, I was still paying for college using
tour money to do that.
I'm just like, "Damn, he's going through it,
too."
You know what I mean?
There are people in the world that you can
still connect to in this crazy entertainment
business.
I think that that's one of the things where
it was easier.
Joe's music was amazing, but there were times
where ... We still joke about it to this day.
It's like, yo, if you're listening to a Joe
song, it's like, "Yo, are you okay?
Are you doing all right?"
Brandon Hall: Even now, he'll play something
and I'll be like, "You all right?"
He'll be like, "I'm fine, bro."
But it's crazy.
Rob Markman: Yeah.
It opens up for the Drakes, the Cudis of the
world.
Brandon Hall: Yeah, all of those people.
Rob Markman: Though, if I'm being honest,
when I hear my friends listening to Cudi songs
I'm like, "Are you okay?"
Brandon Hall: Yeah.
Same thing.
That's my point.
It's a cooler music, I guess, that it's almost
hidden.
These are hidden emotions.
I know we're going to get into it, but the
second record off of Man on the Moon is very,
very telling to me.
It's very telling where he is.
And now, in retrospect, listening to it's
like, "Damn."
Rob Markman: Let's go into it.
Soundtrack to my life.
You had a point you wanted to make?
Jacques Morel: I just wanted to say that you
were right, because it has been in hip hop
since Scarface, and you even had Biggie talking
about suicidal thoughts.
Rob Markman: Suicidal thoughts, The Message,
"Don't push me because I'm close to the edge."
That's mental health.
Jacques Morel: You know?
But I think that it was one of the first times
that ... Because none of this happens without
‘808s and Heartbreak,’ which we're going
to get into and how Cudi is very much influential,
but it was the first time that a whole record
of someone else going through something was
a major hip hop hit, and a major mainstream
hit.
That record sold so many records, and all
of these other things that came out of it
like ‘So Far Gone,’ all of ‘808’s
children is effectively what allowed this
to be possible.
Rob Markman: I hear what you're saying and
I think you're right, but I give Cudi more
credit for ‘808s’, maybe, than most people.
Jacques Morel: Oh, yes.
Rob Markman: A lot of Kanye albums come and,
when you hear it and you look back, you can
tell who he was around.
So the first two or three were Consequence
heavy.
I hear ‘Yeezus,’ I hear Travis Scott.
Brandon Hall: I hear Drake.
Rob Markman: I hear ‘808,’ I hear Cudi.
But Drake wasn't around.
Brandon Hall: I know.
But I hear a lot of Drake.
Rob Markman: A lot of those records could've
been Cudi records.
I think Cudi influenced ‘808.’
Jacques Morel: He had four writing credits
on it, and I'm sure he didn't get all of the
writing credits that he could've gotten.
Rob Markman: He probably did.
To Kanye's credit, as much as you uses collaborators,
Kanye will credit 50 people on the song.
You just brought him coffee at the right time
and that one sip led to the first line, you're
getting credit.
Jacques Morel: You're getting a residual.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Rob Markman: To Kanye's credit.
But I give Cudi way more credit for ‘808’s
than, I think, maybe most people.
Even though Kanye's name was on the front.
I think he was heavily involved with that.
Brandon Hall: I think that's one of the things
that led to Kid Cudi's almost depression,
you know what I mean?
Rob Markman: Right.
Brandon Hall: You know what I mean?
When he was working on that project, you could
see a shift in music, and I think a small
part of him looked at it like, "Damn, well
I was taking this body of work or this new
sound and ushering it in, and now you guys
are doing it, and now it's like ... were do
I fit in with that?"
Rob Markman: Right.
It goes back to what I said earlier.
There was a lot of people getting more of
the commercial acclaim.
Drake is way more ... I think when we talk
about "emotions in rap", I think Drake is
at the forefront of that, and we give Drake
a lot of credit.
Drake does deserve a lot of credit, but I
think you tend to forget when it's not anniversary
time, or if you're not a Cudi super fan, it's
like, yo, Cudi was at the nucleus of that
movement.
‘Day N Night,’ there was the report ... I
think Cudi had said himself that Drake wanted
to be on the remix, but Cudi wanted to keep
it more for himself.
Rob Markman: Maybe this goes to the album,
I think he had a clear idea of who he was,
or at least a clear idea that he wanted to
work out who he was as a musician first before
letting everybody in, because I think especially
in the blog era, it was ripe for collaboration.
So it was very easy to let Drake jump on something
or let Wale jump on something or ... You know
what I'm saying?
They all had relationships.
Naomi Zeichner: We have to acknowledge the
Jim Jones ‘Day N Night’ remix right now
Jacques Morel: Yo.
Yo, I haven't heard that in so long.
Rob Markman: I know that ... I feel like,
when that came out, Cudi was against it.
Naomi Zeichner: Because Hot was playing that
and not his version.
Rob Markman: I think, the way that New York
works, I think that Jim Jones remix was very
instrumental for Cudi to reach an audience
that wasn't online.
Naomi Zeichner: Absolutely.
Rob Markman: That's the Trojan Horse.
Now that gives the DJs who are on Hot 97 and,
quite frankly, can't take a chance on something
... With a Jim Jones verse, it's like, "Okay.
Now I can take a chance on this record."
Jacques Morel: And you can mix the original
in at the same time.
Rob Markman: Right.
Brandon Hall: Yeah, but to your point-
Rob Markman: I loved that remix.
Brandon Hall: At that point, Jim is hot in
the city.
And he's on a hot record.
Jacques Morel: “Ballin’”
Brandon Hall: Yeah!
He's hot at this point.
Rob Markman: Jim was the hottest rapper in
New York, I will die on that hill, at that
time.
Brandon Hall: If I'm Hot or any place else,
yeah, I think I'm going to go with the Jim
Jones record regardless of that.
It's the same thing with Jacquees and Ella
Mai.
I see why there's that power struggle for
the record and plays.
Naomi Zeichner: And that's to Kanye's credit,
right?
Hot wasn't able to take that risk, but Kanye
was at the attendee release party for this
mixtape or whatever understanding that taking
a risk or pulling things from the ground up
is one of the keys to longevity, right?
And I think we still see that model so much
with Drake or even with J. Balvin or whoever.
I think it was very ripe in that era, but
it hasn't grown old.
You know?
Jacques Morel: I think Cudi, from the jump,
has known very much what his sound was and
has wanted to carve that out.
Even looking through old interviews of his
while working on the piece that I'm doing,
he's very much ... It's what he says all of
the time.
He's like, "It's very much important to establish
your own sound before anybody has a chance
to co-opt it in a way."
In his latest interview, he said, "I could've
put Kanye on all of my records, but I didn't
want Kanye to essentially define him."
Rob Markman: I'll go there.
‘Man on the Moon’ to me is a classic.
I think it's a great album.
I hate to start with what I don't like, I
always like to lead with what I like, but
actually the record that Kanye produced ...
Jacques Morel: Sky-
Rob Markman: No.
“Make 'em Say.”
Jacques Morel: “Make 'em Say.”
Rob Markman: Kanye has a production credit
on that.
I hate that.
That's the one record to me that I'm like,
"This does not fit on this album."
It was weird to me.
I think every other record is great and has
its place, and “Make 'em Say” is just
like, "What is this?"
Jacques Morel: You have to justify it, too.
Rob Markman: Yeah.
Naomi Zeichner: It just didn't age super well
topically.
It feels like-
Rob Markman: I also hate, personally ... Disclaimer.
I hate when dudes make songs exclusively about
getting head.
I don't need a whole song about ... We've
all been there, my guy.
Brandon Hall: Weird flex, but okay.
Naomi Zeichner: What I do like about that
song or other songs from the mixtape era,
there's a song called “Maui Wowie” from
the mixtape.
Rob Markman: I fuck with “Maui Wowie.”
Get spicy.
Naomi Zeichner: I don't want to defend “Make
'em Say” per se, but I do want to defend
innocent Cudi and non-emo Cudi.
These were kids who were having so much fun
in New York City, right?
That was so much part of the aspirational,
being able to project onto ... There was still
some mystery, he wasn't on social, so you
were able to project your life onto him.
There was this exciting innocence about the
sonics, as well.
Whatever you want to say about it, “Make
'em Say” is a fun record, and I think that
Kid Cudi as a fun artist has not been as essential
in his legend as maybe it should be.
Naomi Zeichner: I think it was a good thing
about him.
Rob Markman: Did you want to get into “Soundtrack
to My Life”?
Brandon Hall: We can.
We can.
Rob Markman: Yeah, yeah.
Let's get into it, man.
Brandon Hall: I mean, for me, I think this
was the perfect record that describes where
he was when he created that record, and where
he is now.
After hearing Kids See Ghosts, it's like,
"Damn, you ..." He's one of the rare artists
for me that ... That's why I think I connected
to him.
Not because lyrically, not because of his
style, but because at least for me, I believe
him to be genuine.
Right?
Rob Markman: Right.
Brandon Hall: The music that he put out and
seeing where he is now?
It's like, "Damn, you were really going through
some real shit, and you wore it on your sleeve
musically."
I love artists like that.
You'll always get my buy in when I know that
you're authentic.
So for me, coming off of the intro and then
hearing that first record, I literally got
chills.
Even now, when I think about the record, I'm
like, "Oh, my god."
It's one of my favorite records.
And I'm not the biggest Cudi fan, I'll say
that.
But this project and that record for me, it's
one of my favorite records just because I
know it's real.
You know what I mean?
Brandon Hall: And I can feel it.
Even when he's laying certain parts of that
record, you could hear it in his voice where
he's struggling.
It's just one of the more powerful records
that I don't think really gets enough credit
to what it should, and I think it's dope that
now ... Even doing this, it could at least
get some sort of shout.
Rob Markman: Was there anything on the album,
Jacques, that connected to you personally?
Jacques Morel: Honestly, “Soundtrack to
My Life,” “Heart of A Lion,” “My World,”
“Cudi Zone.”
Brandon Hall: Right, right.
“Solo Dolo.”
Jacques Morel: “Solo Dolo,” especially.
But as to “Cudi Zone,” “Cudi Zone”
comes in the middle of the fourth chapter,
Stuck, and it's meant to show what happiness
or what security could feel like, and that song really conveys that.
I remember every time I would listen, me and
my friends would just close our eyes and zone
to it, because you just really felt like,
"Okay.
I feel fine.
Everything's cool."
Rob Markman: Right.
Jacques Morel: You just went through a whole
album of him laying down what the hell's bothering
him, and now you listen to “Cudi Zone,”
and you just really feel like, "It's chill.
Everything's going to be okay."
Rob Markman: I think one of the things he
did on this album for the first time ... Just
growing up in New York, as a kid, I was outside
and I was on the block.
We seen the good and the bad.
At the same time, I was in the comic book
store, so there was that nerd factor.
And me, personally, I felt I can express both.
I didn't have to hide it.
But like “My World,” you knew kids who
were maybe not as confident, so even in “My
World” where he's like, "Entertained myself,
laughed at myself, as I grew to be a teen,
I disguised myself.
I had low self-esteem, especially with the
girls, tried every sport just to impress all
of the girls."
I knew kids like that.
For the first time, I think hip hop was speaking
to those kids maybe who weren't outside or
didn't have the confidence to be who they
were and maybe had to wear a mask.
Rob Markman: I give him credit for that.
I think that's why if you're a Kid Cudi fan
once, I think you're a Kid Cudi fan forever.
I think that fandom doesn't die.
Jacques Morel: You're always welcomed back.
It's like Kanye wore the backpack on stage
and kicked the door open, and then Cudi came
in and just blew it down.
Rob Markman: Right.
Jacques Morel: It wasn't about ... Like I
said, being this bravado...
Rob Markman: But even Kanye, even in all of
the change that he did, Kanye never lacked
confidence.
That's the one thing Kanye never lacked.
Jacques Morel: Yeah. Fair. Fair. Fair. Fair.
Rob Markman: You know what I'm saying?
He was like, "I'm going to come in this backpack.
You saw me rhyming at Phat Beats, but the
backpack is Louis.
Fuck all of your questions."
Brandon Hall: But even Kanye, Kanye is well
documented in saying things like, "Yo, Cudi
is someone that helped make me.
He's one of the people that helped to cultivate
my sound."
Cudi is really responsible for ... I remember
even now, thinking about it, it was a DJ Booth
article that I think-
Jacques Morel: Yoh wrote?
Brandon Hall: Yoh wrote it, I think.
Jacques Morel: Back when Cudi was going off
on Twitter.
Brandon Hall: Yes, yes.
You remember the story, Travis Scott story?
Jacques Morel: Go on.
Brandon Hall: So long story short, Travis
Scott was a big, big hip hop fan and-
Jacques Morel: Oh, that?
Yes, yes.
Brandon Hall: There are a few other people
out there like that that look up to Cudi like that.
Jacques Morel: Logic, Lil Yachty.
Rob Markman: Jaden.
Brandon Hall: The list could go on.
There's a lot of people that really got a
sound from Cudi, and even still to this day,
you can hear the Cudi influence on certain
records.
Naomi Zeichner: I have a hypothesis that kids
that age, like Yachty's age, and not just
artists ... Maybe this album, or albums from
this era, were some of the first and last
that they ever bought on a CD.
Right?
In 2009, the Virgin Megastore was still open
in New York City, and maybe some of the first
artists that they really loved without all
of the branding surrounding it, without the
social, that that connection felt purer and
realer and deeper.
I don't know if this is true, but I do think
that he has ... There is such a deep bond
between his fans and him that I think is unique
and a little bit mysterious, even to me.
Rob Markman: And even further, maybe, if you
can speak on it, because I would love to speak
on it, we're at the place where his fandom
are growing up to be artists.
I fully believe that Jaden Smith now grew
up a Cudi fan.
Brandon Hall: 100%.
Naomi Zeichner: Rocky.
Rob Markman: It's the reason why Rocky ... Even
Uzi.
Even when I hear, "Push me to the edge, all
my friends are dead."
I think Cudi kicks down the door for you to
be able to say that in that way on one of
the biggest singles of the past three years.
You know what I'm saying?
Brandon Hall: Yeah.
Jacques Morel: Especially when Uzi's just
putting out so many records and this is just
one of those that popped, right?
And it's like, "This is how Uzi always raps."
Rob Markman: Right.
Jacques Morel: He always talks about this
stuff.
Rob Markman: But he also, too ... The funny
thing, right, because Cudi ... “The Lonely
Stoner,” was his thing.
Even with Uzi, whenever we see video of Uzi
just roaming around Manhattan-
Jacques Morel: He looks so sad.
Rob Markman: But it's by himself.
There might be a security guard off to the
back or something because Uzi is 5'2".
Jacques Morel: 5'2".
Rob Markman: Shout out to Lloyd.
Brandon Hall: I saw him in the airport, and
he was literally by himself just walking.
Rob Markman: Right.
Brandon Hall: It was the weirdest thing, because
you would never expect someone of his magnitude
to just be solo.
At least not have a bodyguard or something.
He was literally eating a cake, just ... He
looked like a kid, just walking through the
airport.
I'm just like, "Okay.
It's you.
All right.
That's cool.
Whatever."
Rob Markman: Right.
I want to touch, too, on the production of
this album.
I want to shout out ... I think a lot of it
gets credited to Kanye, but Kanye had very
minimal production credits on this album,
and Emile Haynie, a huge part of this album.
Dot da Genius, obviously, with ‘Day N Night,’
and my man Plain Pat.
The first time I heard Cudi ... It's funny,
because I heard ‘Day N Night’ in 2007.
I was at a listening ... I was at a listening
for a Consequence album.
Maybe it was ‘Don't Quit Your Day Job.’
So we're all hanging out, and then ... Yeah.
So it was before Graduation drops, and Plain
Pat says, "Hey, man.
I got Graduation in the car.
You want to hear Graduation?
You want to drive around and listen to Graduation?"
I'm like, "Hell, yeah."
Rob Markman: So we're driving around listening
to Graduation.
He has me in the car already.
"While I have you here, here's an artist that
I'm working with."
It happens all of the time, but he played
‘Day N Night,’ and the record was ... on
first listen, amazing.
It was just so dope how ... I forgot what
my point is, but it was just so dope.
It was like this local thing, though.
Brandon Hall: That's how dope the record is.
Rob Markman: This was a kid who worked in
the Bape store.
It felt very local.
And the production of it.
That's what it was, the production of it stood
out.
Brandon Hall: It's got a club/therapeutic
feel.
Does that make sense?
It's like a calm storm.
It's almost like you want to scream inside,
but it's just like you're chill outside.
Does that make sense?
I know that probably doesn't make sense.
Jacques Morel: It's headphone music.
Brandon Hall: Yeah.
It's just chill music, and I think even production-wise,
if you remove the lyrics from that album,
you could listen to that album just production-wise.
You could 100% listen to it.
I can hear that in a club just by itself just
playing.
So I think that's also what took that body
of work to the next level, that he was able
to ride on these records the way that he did
with the content that he did, and then the
musical ability just took itself to another
level.
Rob Markman: Well, it's definitely moody music.
Shout to Joe "Mood" Music.
Brandon Hall: Yeah.
Yeah.
Naomi Zeichner: I think we take for granted
today, too, we all live in this cross-genre
world.
We're all used to that.
We've all been listening to everything, but
I don't think ... To have Ratatat produce
one of the biggest songs or whatever, that
wasn't ... Around that time, that was still
new, that an 80s party and an indie party
and a hip hop party could actually just be
one party or whatever.
You know?
Rob Markman: But that's what downtown was
like.
And you know, because you were in New York.
Naomi Zeichner: Absolutely.
Rob Markman: That's exactly what downtown
was like.
So just knowing him being in New York at the
time, it was totally a reflection of what
was going on.
I don't know that anybody had captured it
quite the way he did sonically.
Naomi Zeichner: Maybe like MGMT or Vampire
Weekend.
I feel like Vampire Weekend ... That's who
I think of as contemporaries to this album,
almost.
Jacques Morel: He also pulled his sonic scape
from the attachment of his hands, like Pink
Floyd and Electric Light Orchestra.
When I was writing the script to this video,
that's what I was listening to.
And I really felt that.
I really see what he was going with that,
because those records, they sound ... They
have so many different sounds, so many different
... The scope of ‘Animals,’ right?
Pink Floyd's ‘Animals,’ you hear the pig,
right?
Just knowing that Cudi was thinking of this
soundscape of, "Okay.
I need to make this as vast as possible.
I need to reach as many people as possible,
because I have a message to give them.
How can I do that?
By incorporating every single genre I possibly
can."
Naomi Zeichner: Well, they also ... They had
a budget, right?
Jacques Morel: That too! Yeah.
Naomi Zeichner: It was over a year between
the mixtape and the eventual rollout of this
album.
You could tell that they were like, "Oh, shit.
We've got a budget?
Let's get Common, let's get strings."
They went for it, and you could feel it.
It doesn't feel like a negative, but you can
definitely hear it.
It feels like a different time.
Rob Markman: The other thing about the time,
and I often miss the days of ... Me, personally,
when lyricism was the chief thing that we
looked at.
Right?
I want to shout out Yoh again, because he
wrote in a piece and Cudi had said it himself
... Cudi's never been the best rapper.
I don't think that was ever his mission.
And out of his own mouth, he didn't care about
necessarily being the best rapper.
He just wanted to make music that you connect
to.
And we overlooked ... I think, at a time,
in 2009 when we were still ... Lil Wayne is
still the biggest rapper, so it's all about
what you say and how you say it and how you
flip that metaphor.
Rob Markman: And Cudi?
We didn't mind it, because it just felt different.
Jacques Morel: We did mind it, though, at
the time.
I remember there was this Hip-Hop DX interview
where the interviewer had read a question
to him about a comment of someone hating on
his rhymes, and Cudi's like, "Now you've got
to read some comment that I don't like."
He's basically saying, "I don't give a fuck
about what you think."
But people really did give him shit for his
rhymes, and I feel like maybe it's a fair
argument to say that he's one of the people
that brought us to this era where now it's
like, "Okay.
Lyricism is conveyed through brevity."
You know what I mean?
You're able to say in four words what Eminem
would say in 20 words 20 years ago.
Rob Markman: And then... with it.
Yeah, yeah.
At the end of it.
Jacques Morel: At the time, it was still a
thing, because Curren$y and Wiz Khalifa ... Other
people on that freshman list were still laying
down bars.
Crooked 1 before that, Juelz ... They were
still laying down bars.
Brandon Hall: Even those guys, they never
looked at him as lyricist.
You know what I'm saying?
You look at Cudi as an artist.
Even if you're understanding the body of work,
you're really looking at this as almost his
outlet, his therapeutic session with himself.
But he's just sharing it with the fans.
I don't really think you look at him in that
light.
I think if he really applied himself, given
the type of music that he makes, could he
probably be a way better lyricist?
Of course he would.
At least in my opinion.
But to your point, I don't think that that's
his goal.
Brandon Hall: His goal is just to express
himself, and in the midst of that, his tribe
come in back of him and they understand him.
He understands them and then they just run
together.
So I don't know.
Rob Markman: And it's not to say that it's
devoid of lyrics, because I think it's just
the mode of what you choose to deliver the
message.
So it wasn't through these complex metaphors.
But on ‘Soundtrack to My Life’ when he's
just like, "A happy ending would be slitting
my throat," fuck.
That shit hits you.
That lyric catches you the first time like,
"Wait.
Hold up.
What?"
You know what I'm saying?
It's just a different method of songwriting
than maybe hip hop was used to at the time.
Brandon Hall: It's almost like shock therapy
through lyrics, what he does.
There's rare moment in this body of work or
just him in general where you'll be in a really,
really good zone almost.
It's like you're coming out of a deep place,
and then he'll say something crazy.
It's like, "Fuck.
I'm right back."
But the beat is still good and you still roll
with it.
It's almost like he hypnotizes you with these
depressing things laid over really intricate
melodies.
Jacques Morel: That is the best way to put
it.
Brandon Hall: It's genius.
It's genius.
Yeah, it's genius.
No pun.
Rob Markman: Pun, fuck it.
Bar.
That's a bar.
I want to go to this Travis Scott quote, because
again, we just talked about the influence.
Right?
He told MTV in 2015, "I feel like he's a part
of my story of how I became who I am.
There would be no Travis Scott if it wasn't
for him."
Talking about Kid Cudi, of course.
And we see that influence, right?
Brandon Hall: 100%.
Especially if you know music.
You can see it.
Even if Travis never goes on record and says
what he says and they have this whole big
car ride in the backseat when he's crying
and all of this other crazy shit, even if
that never happens, you can hear the influence.
They way he lays ad libs, the way he does
his two tracks.
You can hear a lot of it.
Even the way he structures his melodies on
top of melodies, you can hear it.
And that's the thing why Cudi will forever
be cemented, because I think that sound is
very, very distinct when you hear it.
Brandon Hall: And if you know it, you'll know
what it is.
Naomi Zeichner: And beyond sonics, I think
what's so amazing about Cudi is just it was
so aspirational.
Right?
Every lyric didn't need to be perfect in order
to convey authenticity.
That he had cool friends, that there was style,
but it didn't all need to be fleshed out.
There could still be some mystery.
Also, that he had other revenue streams.
He was an actor, too.
He was really living a life that I think a
lot of people who stayed inside were excited
about aspiring to, and I think that are still
... A career like Travis', you could say,
is modeled based on being able to dream what
he could see in Cudi.
Rob Markman: RIP to ‘How to Make It In America.’
Brandon Hall: Word.
Naomi Zeichner: People really ... I feel like
the fans of that show really loved that show.
Jacques Morel: Yeah, same.
I wasn't that into it.
Brandon Hall: I watched that show.
I liked that show.
Rob Markman: I remember, because I was at
XXL.
Except the Rasta Monster part, I was just
like “What is going on here.”
Brandon Hall: Outside of that ... That got
a little weird.
But in New York-
Rob Markman: It felt like New York.
Brandon Hall: It felt like New York.
I remember when I was a kid trying to make
it in music and doing all of these things.
I fuck with that shit, you know what I'm saying?
That's the grind, and that's why I connected
with that show.
Jacques Morel: They went from a couple of
prints to Bloomingdale's.
Brandon Hall: Yeah.
Jacques Morel: I was like, "Come on."
Brandon Hall: Yo, man.
Jacques Morel: I was like they need at least
two ... What, they were trying to be Entourage?
Even then, there was two or three seasons
before Vinny got his big break.
Brandon Hall: It can happen, though.
It can happen, man.
Jacques Morel: But yeah, you know, it's fair.
Fair.
Brandon Hall: It can happen.
It can happen.
I've seen people that you would never even
think turn into megastars.
I remember when I first met Drake, he was
a kid with a jean jacket on, bad shape up
and was the biggest Joe fan.
Dead serious.
Rob Markman: I'm Drake.
Brandon Hall: I'm so serious, though.
But people thought he was so wack, and now
look at him.
You know what I'm saying?
I've seen it happen.
Obviously not within a year's time, but it
took for that one mixtape, ‘So Far Gone,’
to just take you somewhere different.
But I know.
I digress.
Rob Markman: Let's talk about ... I just want
to talk about maybe personal highlights of
the album.
10 years later, we're talking about this album
still.
I think it affected people in such deep ways.
So I'll just go around the room.
Jacques, I'll start with you, man.
Personal highlight?
Jacques Morel: Still “Soundtrack to My Life.”
Forever, forever and ever and ever.
“Soundtrack to My Life.”
“Solo Dolo,” the end of it.
He's like, "When will learn from the words
in my songs?
I'm Mr. Solo Dolo."
That one.
“Heart of a Lion.”
I'm just going straight through it, and “Cudi
Zone.”
And “Up, Up and Away.”
“Up, Up and Away”'s supposed to be his
wake and bake track, but Up, Up and Away is
very much reminiscent, not reminiscent, but
very much of Cudi's post-rehab time.
If you look at Cudi's lyrics since he came
out of rehab, he's just been so happy in all
of his interviews, and he's just been so happy,
so positive.
I feel like he's in his “Up, Up and Away”
right now.
He's very much in his “Cudi Zone.”
He has a daughter.
Jacques Morel: Those are the songs, because
I feel like they really track the story of
Cudi.
He told you the soundtrack to his life, he
told you how his music was therapy and how
he's starting to listen to it himself, and
now he's up, up and away.
He's much happier and he's in a much better
place.
Naomi Zeichner: I think “Pursuit of Happiness”
is the one for a reason.
It's basic to say, maybe, but I think that
song's just had a really beautiful life and
it's still a highlight of the set and obviously
lived on through the Schoolboy Q/Lana Del
Ray song.
I think that song deserves the credit it already
has.
Rob Markman: Yeah. And it's such a great way to round out, towards the end of the album, what that is.
It's a great exclamation point.
Brandon Hall: Yeah.
“Solo Dolo” for me, and even “Pursuit
of Happiness.”
But Solo Dolo just because I like the arrangement.
I like how that record was set up, and I like
how it ends.
The end for me is like ... I put that shit
on dump.
Jacques Morel: I know, I know.
Brandon Hall: The ending, for me, of that
record is like ... It gets you every time.
It's one of those dope ass records.
Yeah, it never gets bad.
Jacques Morel: At the ending of “Pursuit
of Happiness,” too, he's like, "Why did
I drink so much and smoke so much?
Ahhh"
Brandon Hall: I feel like that's the cliché
record, but for me, anytime that record came
on I was like, "All right, this is my shit."
You know what I'm saying?
When that record comes on, it's like-
Rob Markman: It's such a reflection of what
was going on at that time.
That's being able to get into your first club
in New York City, you know what I'm saying?
Brandon Hall: Being on the scene, wild parties.
Rob Markman: I don’t know if we were at
1Oak yet.
We were probably at 1Oak around that time.
Brandon Hall: Definitely at 1Oak.
I can tell you where I first heard that record,
and I think it's either 1Oak or-
Jacques Morel: Greenhouse?
Brandon Hall: Greenhouse. That's what it is.
I'll never forget that shit.
That record came on?
Oh, my god.
Rob Markman: And you're already drunk by the
time it comes on.
Brandon Hall: It was a dub.
Jacques Morel: Put sparklers in my bottles,
please.
Brandon Hall: Yeah.
Rob Markman: For me, I always remember ... “Sky
Might Fall” might be my personal favorite,
because it's just like this ... I think, again,
growing up as a kid in Brooklyn where everything
and anything will happen and can go wrong,
and still having that fuck it attitude, "I'm
not worried.
It'll work itself out," was dope.
And I remember one thing about that ... I
always wondered if it was a troll that Cudi
did, but I don't know if you guys remember,
in blog era ‘Transformers 2’ was coming out.
Rob Markman: So it was the ‘Transformers
2’ trailer, and the trailer dropped with
“Sky Might Fall” intertwined in the trailer.
Everybody was like, "Holy shit, Cudi."
Again, this is the people's champ, right?
Jacques Morel: He got a big sync.
Yeah.
Rob Markman: Yeah, getting a big sync is like
... It feels like it's all of our wins.
But then it was a weird Vimeo link.
Turned out it was fake, but all of the blogs
posted it.
Jacques Morel: I do remember this. I do remember this.
Rob Markman: I just always remembered this,
and I was like, "Oh, shit.
He's in the Transformers movie.
That's crazy."
But it definitely ... It got him a lot of
blog posts for a week, and I don't know if
he did it.
Naomi Zeichner: Why are we giving bloggers
a bad reputation right now for unverified posts?
Rob Markman: That's expert marketing.
That's amazing.
That's a great troll.
Brandon Hall: Now when you think about it,
though, you may be able to credit Cudi for
click bait.
Rob Markman: Yeah.
If his team did that, that was excellent guerrilla
marketing.
Brandon Hall: That's what I'm saying. Yeah. Yeah.
I never saw it, but it sounds dope.
Rob Markman: Right. No, I remember that.
Naomi Zeichner: I'm having PTSD about unverified
Kanye trailers and making sure people didn't
post them.
Rob Markman: Nah, man.
But thank you all for joining me, man.
I love these discussions, because this is
our culture, this is our music.
This is important.
Obviously, 10 years is a long time, but it's
not that long.
As long as we continue to talk about these
works like this, we just want to ensure that
they'll live forever, so through this conversation,
I feel that.
And definitely, we want to hear from you.
We know you're all Cudi fans out there.
Go to the comments, tell us your favorite
Cudi songs off of Man on the Moon, your favorite
Cudi moments.
You all see me in the comments every week.
It's really me, y’all know I talk back,
man.
So come fuck with us, man, and check us out
next week.
Rob Markman: This is For the Record.
Peace.
