[MUSIC PLAYING]
NICOLE FARKOUH:
I'm thrilled to be
able to introduce and converse
with Jennifer Brown of Jennifer
Brown Consulting.
And she not only is the founder
of a well-reputed diversity
and inclusion firm, a published
author, and a just generally
fun and exciting person, but she
is also a native Californian.
JENNIFER BROWN: Yes.
NICOLE FARKOUH: And she hails
from behind the orange curtain,
which I'll let her
explain what that is.
And she's also a--
I'm not sure if it's OK to
say recovering opera singer.
JENNIFER BROWN: Opera singer.
NICOLE FARKOUH: Yeah, a
recovering opera star.
JENNIFER BROWN: Absolutely.
NICOLE FARKOUH: Singer.
And we're going to have a
lot of fun talking today.
So the format is that I'm
going to just ask her a number
of questions, and then we'll--
there's a Dory associated with
the talk.
And anyone who is
virtual, we invite
you to post any questions you
may have up there as well.
And then we'll open up to
the floor for questions also.
So Jennifer, I'd love to ask
you to start off by just sharing
a little bit about your story.
JENNIFER BROWN: OK.
So typically where I
start about my story
is that I grew up in a musical
family in Southern California.
And I was the oldest
of three kids.
And when I was 27,
I decided I was
going to pursue my love
of music full time,
so I moved to New
York City to make it,
as one does, and did
opera conservatory,
so I got my master's
in operatic voice.
And that was really
what I wanted to do.
And one thing led to
another in the course
of the intense training
that one goes through
in the opera world.
And unfortunately,
I injured my voice,
and I had to get
several surgeries.
And the recovery
from vocal surgery
is that you have
to be completely
silent for several weeks
as your mechanism heals.
And when you're finally
able to make a sound,
all that comes out
is a little squeak.
And so I worked with
speech therapists
and kind of coaxed
my voice back,
but the writing was
on the wall, and I
knew that I would never
be able to really use
my instrument in a full-time
role as a performer.
So it was really heartbreaking
to lose my voice, literally,
and my creative
means of expressing
myself and connecting with
audiences, which is really
what I loved to do.
But luckily, friends
that had been
in the stage and
performing world
said, why don't you
look into the field
of corporate training?
You know, if you like
being in front of people
and on the stage,
you get to work
with people every single
day, and that's your job.
And I thought, wow,
that sounds really
fun and right up my alley, so
I got another master's degree
in something called
organizational development,
organizational change.
Some of you may know it is I/O
psych, I/O psychology, which
is industrial-organizational
relations, anything having
to do with how organizations
function optimally and humans
in those organizations.
And so that kind
of saved my life
and gave me more inspiration
to continue and build
into the whole field of
leadership development.
So PS, I was meant to use my
voice, just not as a singer.
And I would come
to understand how
profound the metaphor of
the voice really was for me,
because I was also in
the LGBT community.
So I've had a female
partner for 20 years.
I've been out since I was
22, and I'm now in my 40s.
But I absolutely
wasn't using my voice
in the workplace in a
series of corporate roles.
Even as I started my
company 10 years ago,
I really worried that--
I wasn't sure how
it would go for me,
trying to sell
contracts to people
that were different than me.
Would they believe what I say?
Would they accept me?
Would they trust
me and my opinion?
I mean, I think--
and still to this
day, there are moments
when you wonder strategically
how much of my full self
can I bring into this situation?
Does it serve me to share that?
Is it a learning point?
Is it a teaching
point, or is it just
going to distract
the conversation?
Does it really matter?
And it really does matter.
It does matter.
And if it doesn't matter
to me, it certainly
matters to people
that are looking
for more role models that look
like me and that have my story.
And so that's what I kind
of always come back to is
it's important for all of us to
stand up and tell our diversity
stories.
And for me, giving voice to the
voiceless in the workplace--
and that, to me, means
all diverse talent,
i.e., women, people
of color, LGBT
people, anybody
who doesn't really
conform to what a leader looks
like in so many companies
that I consult to.
I believe in them,
and I was one of them.
And so it's really us.
It's not them.
And so we dedicate
our work at my company
to really raising those
voices up and also teaching
the company why diverse talent
is so valuable in so many ways
and bringing that
awareness to people.
So it's really-- isn't it funny?
It makes sense in hindsight
when you kind of look
at all the pieces of
your life and why did
things happen the way they did.
But I absolutely feel like
we're in the sweet spot now.
And God knows this conversation
is hotter than ever,
which we'll talk about today.
So we're right in the
right spot, I think,
to be carrying this message.
NICOLE FARKOUH: Yeah.
So I was going to jump in
and hit the nail on the head
and ask you, as you're talking
about finding your own voice
and the struggle,
your diversity story,
you also carry with you the
privilege of being able to hide
your diversity story.
JENNIFER BROWN: Right.
NICOLE FARKOUH: And so I'm
curious how you build--
how you navigate the space
in which there are people who
you're trying to work on behalf
of people who cannot hide
their diversity story, and how
do you build credibility with
those people?
And how does that come up
in the work that you do?
JENNIFER BROWN: Yeah, I
mean, it's interesting.
It reminds me of when I
first got into this work, I--
whether people said
it to me or not,
I think they wondered
what is a woman that looks
like that doing in this work.
I don't know if that was really
said to me all that much, but--
and it is actually
really preposterous
that I'm in this work in a
crazy way, because I grew up--
I also have a lot
of class privilege.
And I always went to
very expensive schools.
And honestly, I
don't think anyone
in my family forecast
me doing this work.
It just wasn't something
they even knew about.
And that's true for so
many of us, I think,
that feel called to do this.
And coming out was a
really big part of that.
I have to say women's studies in
college and sort of discovering
my feminism was probably even
a bigger aha moment for me,
growing up in a really
traditional family with really
traditional gender roles
and expectations of me.
So the whole process of kind
of casting that aside and kind
of striking out on
a different path
to say, you know, I've got
to live true to myself,
but I always felt compelled to,
if I needed to be a role model,
I was ready to do that.
And if people needed me
to be a champion for them,
I was ready to do that.
And I think I
honestly learned how
to do that being in the
LGBT community, where
we needed champions.
I mean, we need our
straight ally friends
so desperately to even
just be safe, let alone
have conversations that we
can't have on our own behalf.
So the way I've come
to think about it is--
and I don't know how--
I mean, I just show up, and
I admit what I don't know,
but I also talk a lot about
how I have a responsibility
to be an ally to
others because I
have relative privilege because
of certain unearned things
about me.
Whether that means I
can walk, for example,
into an executive room and
have people listen to me
in a different way because
they're making stereotypes
about who I am, often
incorrect, right?
Only for me to then
reveal, which I think
is a powerful aha moment
for many people as well.
But I see myself as
needing allyship, but also
providing that and
identifying as an ally.
And the LGBT community
really gave me
that language, because
I experienced directly
what that really meant for
a marginalized community.
So I really see it
as my job to make
sure I'm employing my
privilege on others' behalf.
And I think--
I don't know if workplaces are
really going to figure this
diversity and inclusion thing
out until we have more people
who are thinking about their
intersectionality more deeply
and thinking about what do
I have that others need,
where I can take the hit
maybe, or I can have the tough
conversation, or I can be the
one that challenges where they
can't.
And I think if we had more
of that going on, we wouldn't
be so penalized, those
of us who are always
the squeaky wheel, who
are always bringing up
what's said that
wasn't appropriate,
or challenging somebody's choice
about who they pick for a team
or who got the job or whatever.
It can't always be the
woman, the person of color,
the gay person,
because there's lots
of studies that show that it
puts you in a difficult spot.
From a perception standpoint,
it can actually hurt you.
So we're not alone.
We're not alone in
fighting these battles,
but we've got to figure
out how to really utilize
people around us.
And I'd like them
to step up and say,
I don't need to wait to
be asked to do something.
I'm going to do something.
I'm going to use my privilege,
and I'm going to be an ally.
NICOLE FARKOUH: Yeah.
I'm curious-- you
mentioned that you
come from a background
of class privilege.
How do you think that
privilege facilitates the work
that you do?
JENNIFER BROWN: Oh my
gosh, I love that question,
because it's something I wanted
to hide for a really long time.
We talk about-- there's a
really wonderful research
on covering out of Deloitte.
I recommend you all read it.
It's called "Uncovering Talent."
And it is the hiding
or minimizing,
if you can-- the minimizing
of a stigmatized identity.
So some of us can hide it.
Some of us can't.
My class background
is something honestly
that throws people off.
And I don't really talk
about it that much.
However, my education forced
me to write voluminous amounts
on all sorts of subjects.
It forced me to be
on stage in front
of hundreds over and
over and over again,
which means I'm fearless.
I mean, I'm really,
like, you can't stump me.
You can't frighten me.
I am so resilient.
And part of our output at JBC
is tons of thought leadership.
Like, we're always writing.
We're researching.
I'm using a lot of my ability
to connect ideas in a way,
I think, speaking the
language that my readers can
absorb and understand.
And honestly, it's
that level of polish
that you need as a performer,
is something that I think really
helps you deal with the
executive level at companies,
because it's a
tough place to be.
It's challenging.
And you have to
really hang in there,
and you've got to
build trust quickly.
You've got to influence.
You've got to
establish credibility.
You're already a woman walking
into those spaces, which
are largely male,
so I'm already aware
that I've got to sort
of overcompensate
and be like extra perfect
and extra creative, I think,
in terms of, like, are
they listening to me?
Is that landing?
Do I need to take another tack?
Like, do I need a
personal story here,
or do I need some data here?
I like the challenge of it,
but I think my background kind
of prepared me.
And the other thing that
prepared me, honestly,
is having a really domineering
father who's still alive.
He's not going to
ever watch this.
This doesn't leave the
four walls of Google.
But being the oldest daughter
of a very, very dominant
male figure, just from
a survival perspective,
I had to really figure out how
I was going to endure that,
but what I was meant
to learn from it.
And it turns out
what I was probably
meant to learn from
it is how to deal
with the people I deal with now,
which are a lot like my dad.
I have to go into those rooms
and have those conversations.
And yelling about it,
getting upset about,
it's not going to work.
It has to be strategic.
It has to be very careful.
It has to be thoughtful.
It has to be respectful, because
I think we lose a lot of people
if we kind of attack.
So I think that
honestly prepared me.
NICOLE FARKOUH: So in the
middle of all that you
have to show up as powerful.
You are a successful
businesswoman.
How do you-- do you struggle
with imposter syndrome?
JENNIFER BROWN: Yes.
I work on it a lot.
Does everyone know what
imposter syndrome is?
Sort of not really earning
the place that you're at
and the opportunities
that you have.
And I think some of us do it
to ourselves more than others.
Women are notorious for
playing small, I think.
So it's honestly something you
have to build the muscle with.
And it involves a little
bit of believing--
drinking the Kool-Aid.
It is believing the
things that people
say to you about what
a difference you're
making every day.
It is actually
allowing that stuff
to land instead of
pushing it off and saying,
oh, they're just saying that.
That's what we're so good at
doing-- oh, it's nothing--
minimizing it.
I think, for us, when
you are being successful,
you have to let that stuff in.
And then you've got to start
to believe it to a degree
and being obviously practical
and realistic about it.
And really, I mean,
it's just like branding.
I think brands are always
listening to their audience.
I'm always listening to mine.
What is resonating with people?
What do they really appreciate
about what we're doing?
I'm constantly trying to think,
how can I be more valuable?
What do they need?
And how can we be of service?
And so I think if
you're in service of,
far from being
called sort of overly
confident or
self-promoting, you're
actually adding
value all the time.
I mean, my MO as a business
owner has always been,
like, what can I
write about that's not
being written about right now?
What can I lend my credibility
to and give some weight to,
so that people start
to talk about something
I want them to talk about?
And I love having that.
That's power.
But it's power for good.
So I think you just
have to look at yourself
and say, I have all these
tools at my disposal.
It's only harming
me and the world
if I don't use them for
the purposes that I judge
are important.
And after a while in the same
field, you become an expert.
Read Malcolm Gladwell.
When he talks about the
mastery, he says 10,000 hours.
How many thousands of
hours have I spent?
I mean, 300 pages was nothing.
I was like, oh, I have to stop.
You learn so much,
and I think you've
got to really just
embrace that you
are an expert on this stuff.
And expertise-- I don't
even know if 10,000 hours
is really needed.
Our world is going so fast.
We were talking about
this last night.
To call yourself an expert
is even changing now
to the point where I think
the best experts in a way
are people who are present,
people who are listening,
who are agile, who
are responsive,
who are willing to
challenge norms.
So I don't know if it
means you have five PhDs.
I mean, in what?
I think our world is
changing so quickly.
Those of us who are at the top
level of these conversations
can synthesize.
We can connect the dots.
We can make people
feel heard and seen.
To me, that's the kind of
experts we really want,
not the ones that have
been in an ivory tower
forever and necessarily
studying a discipline.
NICOLE FARKOUH:
And what would you
say are some of the successes
you are most proud of when you
say they have to actually land?
You have to let them land.
JENNIFER BROWN: Oh, yeah.
I'd say, well, giving
a TED Talk was insane.
Speaking of imposter
syndrome, I almost
didn't do my TED Talk
that fell into my lap.
I think I made a lot of excuses
about why I wasn't ready,
or whether I wasn't--
I knew I needed to
come out in the talk.
It was important and it was
important to the organizers,
actually.
And I was, like, hmm.
So at the time, it
was 2010 or '09.
And there weren't a lot
of out LGBT TED speakers.
And there was nobody talking
about diversity and inclusion
on the TED stage.
And it was the Wild West of the
internet and comment sections.
And I just didn't know
what would happen.
But even bigger than coming
out, I almost didn't do it.
And I look back,
and I think, this
is what happens to
women in particular.
We don't think we're ready.
We're scared it's not
going to be perfect.
We think we have to do
more homework before we're
ready to be that bold.
And honestly, I delayed in
calling the organizers back.
I kind of hemmed and hawed.
I procrastinated.
And it's really odd behavior
for someone like me, who so
many people want to hear from.
And for me to almost say
I'm not ready for that,
that makes no sense.
That's kind of some wiring
thing that's going on
and a lot of powerful
socialization.
And when I ended
up doing it, I was
one of the few women in
a lineup of lots of men.
So there's probably two or
three women speakers and maybe
10 men.
It was at TEDxPresidio, which
is right in San Francisco.
So big, like, 1,000 people.
And I asked the organizers,
why are there are not
more women in the agenda?
And they literally said, none
of the women called us back.
All the men got back
to us immediately.
NICOLE FARKOUH: Note to self.
JENNIFER BROWN: Note to self.
They got back immediately to us.
And they got all of their
stuff to us so quickly.
And they were so self-assured
about the message
that they were going to give.
NICOLE FARKOUH: Wow.
JENNIFER BROWN: I know, right?
NICOLE FARKOUH: That
is a great anecdote.
JENNIFER BROWN: It's
a crazy anecdote.
And I thought to myself,
that was almost me,
thinking my story wasn't
important enough to share.
And the crux of
the story I shared
was honestly the voice
story that I just shared.
And I thought it was
like a nothing story.
I just was, like,
who's going to care?
It's just me, like, poor me.
How dare I?
I'm so privileged.
Like, I get to study opera.
So why am I up on this
stage talking about this?
And I guess what I
found subsequently
in telling that story so many
times is so many people can
see themselves in your story
in ways that are not literal.
It is a metaphor.
And the fact that
you're being vulnerable
on stage, sharing something that
you hid, that you were ashamed
of, that broke your heart, that
you almost didn't recover from,
is so human and so universal.
And it was such an
important lesson for me too.
And as I teach
diversity stories now,
especially to people who
don't think they know anything
about diversity, I
say, you absolutely
do know something about this.
We just have to--
we just have to
find that for you.
And then we need to
prepare you to tell it
in a way that's authentic and
connects audiences to you.
And my friend says it's
not the pain Olympics.
Let's not stack up
all of our grievances,
and say who has suffered?
Yes, some of us have
suffered more than others.
Absolutely.
But that doesn't mean
that you should be silent,
because actually a lot of eyes
are on you, and especially
for leaders, we are
watching leaders.
We need to see who you are,
not just your fancy title
or your big name.
It's honestly so much
about your diversity story
and when you
understood exclusion.
And most people know
something about that.
NICOLE FARKOUH:
One of the things
that's striking me
as you're speaking
is a polarity that I'm
seeing between power
and vulnerability.
And I imagine that you
have to kind of navigate
both, flip between them,
stretch between, whatever it is.
JENNIFER BROWN: Yes.
NICOLE FARKOUH: And I'm curious
if that's a frame that you've
thought about at all.
JENNIFER BROWN: I like it.
I like it.
I'm envisioning a graphic
that I could mock up.
But it's true,
especially for leaders
for whom power meant
knowing all the answers,
being seen as in charge.
The vulnerability was the last
thing they wanted to share.
And if any of you don't
know Brene Brown's work
on vulnerability, she gave
a very famous TED Talk,
and people nicknamed it
the vulnerability TED.
And it was all about her
research around vulnerability
and what a powerful
leadership tool it is,
that is completely
underutilized.
But it's interesting.
Women being vulnerable
is different than men
being vulnerable, different
than people of color
being vulnerable.
So the message sort of shifts.
I mean, there's a degree of
risk of vulnerability for people
who already have less power.
NICOLE FARKOUH: Right.
JENNIFER BROWN: So we've
got to be aware of that.
But people with power, I
feel like there's no excuse
not to show vulnerability.
I mean, that's where
I get to be kind
of ass kicker in the boardroom.
You are safe.
You're protected.
And for you to kind
of go out on a limb
looks very different than for
others to go out on a limb.
And therefore, you have a
responsibility to do that.
NICOLE FARKOUH: Yeah.
And so that kind of leads me
into wanting to talk about one
of the notions that
you cover a lot in you
book is the change agent.
And so I'm wondering if you can
just share a little bit about--
I feel like we've been dancing
around that this whole time,
that we've been talking
without naming it.
So I want to name it and
invite you to talk about it
a little bit.
And how do you define
the change agent?
And particularly in
a corporate space,
what is the rule
of change agent?
JENNIFER BROWN: Yeah, I love
the term because a lot of us
feel called to challenge
a system around us.
And wherever you sit
in the hierarchy--
it doesn't need to be senior.
It's a lot of junior people,
who are creating change
from where they are and
influencing discussions that
are going on and being
allies to their colleagues,
volunteering to be part
of efforts and initiatives
and things like that.
So it's really anyone who
takes on the mantle of having
courageous conversations,
showing up more boldly,
speaking on behalf of
others when needed,
speaking on behalf of
themselves honestly, and showing
themselves.
So even if-- especially
if we have stigmatized
parts of who we are,
bringing those to the fore
and really leading with them.
And for me as a
change agent, I think
you need to think of wherever
you are in the organization.
Who are you trying to
influence, and what are they
going to listen to?
We have to be really good
at having a lot of tools
at our disposal.
Like I said before, if I
am in an executive room
and I want to create
change, I've got to know--
I like to know where is
everyone on this topic?
Where are they
from early adopter,
totally get it,
super enthusiastic,
to kind of apathetic but
listening, to active resister,
somebody who doesn't
show up, somebody
who will show up and be
combative or challenging,
even of the data.
And so when you
think about how do
I speak to each of these
groups differently,
a really effective
change agent, I think,
is somebody who can
shift their message
and work with the listener.
Because if we lose them--
if we lose them, we lose our
mechanism to create change.
But we need to keep
them differently.
I think it's really interesting
work because, to me, it's
audience analysis.
And I enjoy that a lot.
I enjoy trying to
figure out where
are people, what are
the questions they have,
what are the
triggers for change?
I write a lot about
that in the book.
When companies call us,
there's a host of reasons why.
They call us because
they're ready for change.
It can be anything from the
CEO came from like an Amex
and is moving over to, say,
a fast growth tech company.
And they'll be, like, what
is going on right now?
Like, I came from this
company to this company,
and I went from a totally
kind of baked mature strategy
that everybody understood
to literally nothing.
And so that CEO will say,
this is not acceptable.
We've got to get on the train.
And so they may
call us and say we
got to build-- what
I had over there,
we've got to build over here.
Or they may be a very
competitive person.
They might look at their
industry ecosystem and say,
well, we're behind
them, them, and them,
and I'm not OK with that,
so we got to catch up.
That's also good.
I mean, I don't
know if I believe
it's the most altruistic reason
in the world, but I'll take it.
Sometimes it's a
personal reason.
Sometimes if it's a male CEO
with daughters and somebody
who's been intimately courtside
around equal opportunity
for women and girls
and has a personal need
to leave a legacy that is
better than what they're seeing.
And sometimes CEOs get really
galvanized around the pay gap,
for example.
Many companies don't even
know what their pay gap is.
They know, but it's
closely guarded in HR
and not really shouted
from the rooftops.
But then you've got Marc
Benioff at Salesforce,
who's the CEO there, who's
doing some really radical things
around pay gap stuff.
He's wrote a check
for $3 million
just to gross up pay for all
the people that were underpaid,
and that was kind of
just his first salvo
in the conversation and
then, at the same time,
sort of tackling the systemic
problems that led to that.
So there are-- everybody is sort
of on this big long continuum.
And I think you've got to meet
your organization where they're
at.
You've got to meet your
manager where they're at.
You've got to meet your
team where they're at.
Start local, start
to suggest that we
have open dialogue
about this stuff
and build a container for it.
Somehow think about-- there's
a lot of suggestions in here
about what you can do at
your level, whatever that is,
to create change.
But know that the
big organizations
need pretty sophisticated
structures to really shift
a culture towards inclusion.
I mean, it's one of
those things that--
it's fascinating how
does a huge company that
is growing and
surviving and dealing
with new markets and everything
shift towards inclusion.
It's way more complex than like
hiring and fixing your problem
by hiring x number
of this, this,
and this, who, by the way,
won't stay if your culture isn't
inclusive.
So you've kind of solved
one part of the problem,
but then you haven't
actually adjusted the culture
so that they will stay
and grow and thrive.
NICOLE FARKOUH:
So that's actually
a segue into a question
that I had for you.
And there's a quote
in the book where
you write, "Great intentions at
the top of the house, and even
great actions," like we've seen
publicly, where companies are
taking a stand
politically, whether it's
against the Muslim ban
or Black Lives Matter
or issues that are
coming up in the news,
and companies are taking
public stands against those.
"Great actions at
the top of the house,
great scores on all
the indices and lists,
and a whole host
of awards do not
guarantee a healthy
culture for all."
There's a big difference
between talking the talk
and walking the walk.
So what is your recipe
for moving a company
to walking the walk?
JENNIFER BROWN: You
love the hard questions.
NICOLE FARKOUH: Told you I
wasn't going to be easy on you.
JENNIFER BROWN: No, I like it.
No, I love it.
I love it.
Yeah, well, so what
happens is, companies
can buy a lot of
really fancy marketing.
They can even be really well
intentioned and actually
really active in social
issues, although I
have to say most companies
don't say anything about what's
going on in the political
realm, Black Lives
Matter, the Muslim ban.
I mean, most were silent.
And I can tell you
that a lot of employees
were walking around feeling
really jittery and distressed,
and that they had to
kind of hide all of that
as they came into work
in the last six months
at various junctures,
depending on what
has been happening-- in the
last year and a half, actually.
So I think until
leadership especially
realizes that it's not
about-- it's not always
about the grand public
gesture, although they actually
need to do that more, and that's
nowhere near as widespread as I
like to see it.
Even just the email
to an all hands,
even the inclusion of an honest
discussion about inclusion,
even town halls and
dialogues and just a space
to talk about it is
something that I think
a lot of legal departments
are jittery about in most
of the-- now, here maybe not,
but a lot of the companies I
work with are-- they want
to stay away from it.
But the silence
really speaks volumes.
And I know that
people are looking
for leadership in those times
to really speak about why--
what I want to hear is why am I
important to you working here,
like it's really human.
It's very much, am I seen?
Am I heard?
Am I understood?
Even if leadership
doesn't look like me,
and even if it's not from my
community, which typically it's
not, I still want to
hear those messages.
And I want them to be heartfelt
and authentic and vulnerable.
And even if leaders don't
have all the answers,
they need to say, I don't
have all the answers,
and yet I'm committed to
finding them out together,
just something like that.
It is not about taking
political stands.
I think a lot of
companies stayed quiet
because they thought
there was just no way
to talk about these
things without coming out
on one side or the other.
And it wasn't about that.
I think inclusion
and inclusiveness
is sort of a universal topic
that we can all talk about.
So I think to walk
the talk, it's
got to be heartfelt.
It has to be--
we've got to have the hard
conversations inside and not
just go for the big pop
on the external metrics,
although we need to do
more of that too, trust me.
I mean, the vast
majority of companies
aren't doing anything
in any of these lists.
NICOLE FARKOUH: Yeah.
So I have a whole set
of other questions
that I'm dying to
ask you, but I also
want to open up the
floor to anyone else that
wants to ask questions,
either on the live stream or--
JENNIFER BROWN: Yeah, please.
NICOLE FARKOUH: --in the room.
JENNIFER BROWN: We'd
love to hear from you.
NICOLE FARKOUH: And
I'm happy to keep
going if no one's thought
of anything yet to ask.
JENNIFER BROWN: I see a lot of
shaking head out there, though.
NICOLE FARKOUH: Does
anyone have a question
that they'd like to ask?
AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE].
NICOLE FARKOUH: OK, wait,
let's get you a mic because--
JENNIFER BROWN: There you go.
NICOLE FARKOUH: --we need
to have for the recording.
JENNIFER BROWN: That's right.
AUDIENCE: Hello.
JENNIFER BROWN: Hello, hello.
AUDIENCE: Hi, I'm [? Kashima. ?]
You quoted several books
and people that you follow
on TED talks and whatnot,
and so I was just wondering,
are there certain people
that influence you?
I mean, I know your father
was a major influencer.
JENNIFER BROWN: Yes, maybe for
not the right reasons, though.
AUDIENCE: And things happening
with your voice or whatnot,
but were there certain people
that you followed and looked up
to that helped you could
get to where you are now?
JENNIFER BROWN: Boy,
that's a great question.
Well, I'd probably say there
are some leading chief diversity
officers that I've had
the privilege to work
with in so many
different companies
that I've worked in
that are fearlessly
leading their company with
not a lot of resources.
It's a really, really
hard job to do these jobs.
You constantly are
sort of in doubt
in terms of the legitimacy of
what you're actually doing,
and there's so much pushback.
So you spend so
much of your time
trying to figure out, how
do I, again, steer the ship
and get it to move.
So I was always following
the diversity leaders
at companies like
IBM and Wells Fargo
and a lot of financial services
companies, honestly, who
have been doing this for
a really long time, longer
than the tech space.
And I think more
deeply and more widely.
They've sort of baked
it into their structure.
And so I've learned a lot from
those really advanced cultures
that have been going after
this for a long time.
And you know
listening to CEOs, who
talk about diversity and
inclusion and sort of carefully
monitoring how do they talk
about it so that I can then
take that and teach other
CEOs and executives how
to talk about it.
Jim Turley, who was the
CEO of Ernst and Young,
was a really amazing guy,
especially on LGBT rights.
And he was a straight
white cisgender man,
leading this massive global
company that was very, very
adamant about LGBT
equality and gender
equality in his workforce.
And so just getting to
interview him on the stage
was really cool.
And honestly, it's kept me
going because those people like
him give me hope that there
are more of them out there
that are--
they're on the learning curve.
They're on that journey.
They need to be either awakened
or equipped or maybe made
comfortable with being a
spokesperson for these things.
So I think they were really--
meeting people
like that has been
really transformative
for me, because I
know that it can happen.
We just need to
create more of them,
and that's the big
thing that keeps me up
at night, is how do I ignite
leaders that look like him
to speak about these
things so that it makes
it safe for the rest of us
to really show up and bring
our full selves to
work, because that's
going to really shift it.
NICOLE FARKOUH: I'm going
to ask a follow-up question.
If anyone has a
question, raise your hand
and we'll get you the mic.
But it's interesting to hear you
say that the financial services
industry has been doing
this work for a long time
and deeply, because
that's not necessarily--
JENNIFER BROWN: What we think.
NICOLE FARKOUH:
--the industry that I
would think of as a
particularly inclusive industry.
So I'm curious-- it's
interesting to hear
you say that.
And I'm curious what the
impact of that investment
has been in those companies.
What do you see when you're
in there doing that work?
JENNIFER BROWN: Right.
Well, I mean, you see a lot
of employee resource groups
that are really huge,
like they're just massive.
Like, they have
tens of thousands
of people in them kind
of big with their own--
they're sort of a
city unto themselves
with their own org charts.
They have lots of
executive buy-in.
There's multiple levels
of steering committees
and executive councils
in different parts
of the business.
So it's really baked out.
If you were envisioning
it, it's got arms and legs
at different levels and
especially the penetration,
I think, to the senior levels.
And Wells Fargo, for example,
is investing in diverse talent
by graduating thousands
of diverse leaders
through a particular leadership
development program that
is just for each segment.
And I'm involved in their LGBT
program, where we've graduated
500 high potential leaders.
I'm not seeing that in tech.
We need it desperately.
We need it in every
single industry.
It doesn't matter which one.
And the fact they've graduated
thousands of black leaders
through their high
potential program.
And these are people
that are mid-career.
They're in that
really critical time,
where they need to kind of sit
back in a homogeneous group
and say, here's what's
getting in the way for me
for my career, and
here's my peers,
and we share these experiences.
How can we think
about shortcutting
this, whether bias
is showing up,
or who can we leverage
on the plus side that
is supportive of
who's your mentor?
Who's your sponsor?
Could I have lunch
with that person?
So the whole
networking thing that
happens amongst these
communities behind closed doors
shores up that community.
It gives that community a voice,
and gives them confidence,
and it makes them feel
important to the company.
So it's like this
really cool thing.
NICOLE FARKOUH: And
is it moving them
up in the leadership ladder?
JENNIFER BROWN: Yes, it is.
NICOLE FARKOUH: It is.
JENNIFER BROWN: The promotions.
So the promotion rates for Wells
coming out of these programs
are way higher than average
promotion rates for people
who haven't been through them.
So to me, I interpret
that as it's the lift.
It's the investment.
It's the deep dive
into our journeys,
but it's a safe space to
talk about those things.
And for the LGBT community,
the conversations
are around authenticity,
bringing your full self
to work, how exhausting it
is to cover and minimize
your life in front
of your customers
and your branch in the
Midwest or wherever they are.
It's a really
honest conversation.
Or we talk a lot about if
you're a lesbian, not looking
like, maybe, I don't know--
like not fitting somebody's
idea of what a successful
woman leader looks like,
or a gay man saying, I get this
feedback around how I speak
or how I gesture.
I mean, it's really ridiculous
stuff, but it's real.
And I think we're still fighting
against this monolithic idea
of what a leader looks like, and
a lot of us don't fit in that.
And so bias is still keeping us
from achieving what we really
should.
But we've got to take
control of that and name it.
And then kind of be
really savvy about how
we navigate around it, through
it, using our allies to help
us, et cetera.
Yes.
Yes.
AUDIENCE: So kind
of off what you
were saying around the
shift in what a leader looks
like, my question
is around, you know,
we're shifting away from any--
or hoping to shift from bias of
what a leader previously looked
like.
But isn't this still
in a way a construct
of how a leader should show up
and thinking about inclusivity
and bringing your
full self to work?
If someone's not necessarily
extroverted or the type who
feels comfortable to be
sharing these types of stories,
how do you mitigate
that balance of making
sure we're inclusive
in a leadership group
but also having the
responsibility to show up
in the way that
you've described?
JENNIFER BROWN: Yeah.
Oh, that's a great question.
That's a tough one.
I have to think about
that a little bit more.
It's true that this is a little
bit of an extrovert's model,
right?
It's especially hard to expect
an introvert or somebody who
is a little more
analytical to even come
to the table with their story.
And vulnerability
means something
totally different to that person
and feels like way more risky.
I think that's very true.
My friend Wokie Nwabueze--
I have a podcast, and
Wokie was on my podcast.
And she has the Seen
and Heard Project.
And she describes it
as being the quiet.
She's the quiet girl.
And Seen and Heard is all
about the quiet voices, right?
So that we're not ever
going to be the one that's
on edge of the
stage, maybe being
that loud leader or
the expressive leader,
but we're going to lead
in a different way,
and yet we still
have an opportunity
to lead and stretch.
So what does our edge look
like when that's our profile?
And I guess my
answer would be that,
how can a leader who's a
quieter leader, or someone who
leads from behind, or
someone that's analytical,
still work their edge, which
is really the biggest point.
And by the way,
showing up that way
is going to resonate
with people that
need to see that leader
showing up that way, right?
I always say, if we're
not uncomfortable
on a regular basis, from
wherever we're starting,
we're not probably
doing our work.
But the definition of what
uncomfortable looks like
feels different for all of us.
But yeah, I really
appreciate that question.
It doesn't look the
same for everyone.
Quiet advocacy, noisy advocacy--
I think leading when
no one's looking.
And yet you can be an
incredibly inclusive leader
in a quiet way by the questions
you ask, the listening that you
provide, the way that
you represent inclusion
that maybe nobody ever
sees, but that they
experience the impact of.
And that's beautiful
and important.
I would say get others
to tell your story.
And that's why I
tell Wokie's story,
because that's my way of
signaling to people that you
have a role as well.
It's really important.
And that's going to shift
the reality for other people
that may not be shifted
by me and my style,
but may be shifted by you.
NICOLE FARKOUH:
So that's actually
a great transition to
another question that's
kind of percolating for me.
And again, raise your hand
if there's a question.
We'll get you the mic.
But in the meantime,
I'll fill the space
with my question,
which is, how do you
dance between
fighting to establish
your credibility and your
power and being the voice,
exerting your voice,
and also creating
this space for other people to
exert their voice, who maybe
have less power?
Like, how do you navigate that?
JENNIFER BROWN: Oh,
I love that question.
Oh, man, it's so true.
Well, we all have
a different style.
So I am actually, even
though I keynote a lot,
I'm actually more of a
question asker versus a talker.
I'm more of a--
I love focus groups.
I love interviewing people.
I like my podcast, not
because I get the platform,
but because I can give
other people the platform.
But there are some
times when I am
called to be the
definitive voice,
the one with the credibility,
the one that wrote the book.
Even though I will say
the book is nowhere near,
and it couldn't ever
be a perfect solution,
it's just one person's
lens and experience.
So I think it as
a change agent, we
need to understand what
does this moment need of me?
How can I be in
service right now?
Is it to listen?
Is it to support
others, or is it
to come through with the
statement or the power--
show the power really?
And I don't even mean--
we can show power
just with our bodies
and our voice and our presence.
I'm very conscious of
using the power differently
if I'm walking into a room
with employee resource groups
and it's lively and
open and informal,
how does my power need
to show up in that
in a very different way?
But if I'm walking into
a room with executives,
how you walk in, how
you speak, how you
use your voice,
what you say really
matters because you meet--
in my experience, you meet
power with power, frankly.
So you've got to learn
how to kind of get
your grounding in
that kind of room
and use your vulnerability,
but you're always,
always watching how to
be savvy about it, right?
It's a tool in your arsenal.
You can't fall apart in
an executive meeting.
I mean, this is part of, I
think, owning your story.
Like, when I gave my
TED Talk, I thought,
how am I going to get up
on that stage and not cry?
I was, like, am I going
to get through my talk?
And I was really
worried about that.
But as you make your
stories your tool,
you learn how to protect
yourself at the same time
as you are being vulnerable
and you're reliving
something that happened to you.
But you're always mindful
and kind of watching
from a distance to see,
how is this going over?
I'm giving you guys
all of my tricks.
But this is,
honestly-- this is how
I think about it, because
your stories become your tools
and bringing them
out strategically
and at the right moment leads
to a sense of power and mastery
that I think has been really
honestly surprising for me.
It's been really
healing, actually,
just to tell it over
and over and to be--
for me to be
reinforced by audiences
that they're telling
me, like, you're enough.
And to feel that over
and over again is so--
I've been adding that
to me and the strength
that I carry around.
So honestly, I feel like every
time, I feel I'm in community,
I feel strengthened.
I was just at Pride in
New York, and that's just
such a wonderful experience
to realize how much power
is around you and behind
you, in front of you,
and has gone before
you historically.
So I personally like
to really tap into that
and know that I am just part
of a river, and I'm in it.
And my job is just to
keep grabbing what I can,
passing it along where I need
to, channeling some messages
that maybe I channel
in a certain way,
and seen through
my lens, it's going
to sound different to someone.
But I got to keep
trying, and that's
kind of what it feels like.
But there's a real flow.
There's a flow to it
once you get into it,
but it's an
interesting question.
NICOLE FARKOUH: So any--
we have one minute left.
I want to make sure that
anyone who's in the room
knows that you can
get a free book, one
of Jennifer's free books.
JENNIFER BROWN: Yes, yay.
NICOLE FARKOUH: We don't
have them here with us today,
but if you can write
your LDAP down,
I will communicate with
you when they arrive,
and we'll figure out
how to get it to you.
So I'm going to make sure
that to ask you to sign on it
before you go.
AUDIENCE: We have
one more question.
JENNIFER BROWN:
One more question.
Yes, absolutely.
AUDIENCE: Hi.
OK.
My name is Marina, and I
lead a diversity initiative
with my vendor team.
And one of our main
difficulties right now
is building a diverse pipeline.
We don't have enough
resources to hire someone
who could tell us what
to do or not to do,
so right now I rely
a lot on materials
that I find online and studies.
And I wanted to know
if you can give me
any tips for small
companies or teams
that don't have a
lot of resources,
how can we build a
more diverse team?
NICOLE FARKOUH: The vendor
pipeline you're talking about?
AUDIENCE: Yes.
NICOLE FARKOUH: OK.
JENNIFER BROWN: And the
hiring on the vendor
side, like their own hiring?
AUDIENCE: Yes.
JENNIFER BROWN: Yeah.
Yeah, it is difficult. You're
constrained geographically
from--
and what age are you hiring?
Like, out of school or
more experienced hires,
all of the above?
AUDIENCE: Yeah,
all of the above.
JENNIFER BROWN: All the above.
Yeah, because the answer
is kind of different
when you're looking at
young hiring out of schools.
We always say, are you looking
at a broad array of schools?
Are you looking at a-- are you
throwing the job description
away and thinking more broadly
about the kinds of capabilities
that you're looking for to
the nontraditional talent?
And that means hiring
across difference usually.
If your founder team
is largely maybe
white and male or
Asian and male,
it's going to mean that
they have to be committed
and to I wouldn't say take a
risk, because I don't believe
it's risky to hire
outside of your own image,
but they will
believe that it is.
And so how do we help them
understand that actually hiring
in your own image can harm
your ability to be innovative
and to generate that creative
abrasion that happens
from that diversity of talent.
And I think you've got to
start with that resistance may
be there, to then kind of
taking some leaps of faith
and looking under corners that
you wouldn't have normally.
And even going so
far as to say I
don't want to interview
if the pipeline has--
I mean, I have a friend, Adam
Pisoni, who founded Yammer.
I don't know if any
of you know who he is.
He sold to Microsoft.
His next startup, he
refuses to interview
white, straight men like him.
So literally they're not even
getting into the pipeline.
He refuses.
He said, if we let
any of that happen,
it's going to end up that
our founding team, which
is an education startup, by
the way, so serving schools,
is going to be, again,
kind of largely male.
And he's, like, I'm
not OK with that,
and so I've got to take some
drastic action about even who
I let into the pipeline to be
interviewed because there are
so many male candidates
that come his way
and not a lot of
diverse candidates.
And so he's had to literally
kind of say to the team,
this is a non-negotiable for
me, because this founding team
is so important
because who you hire
is then going to send a
signal to your next hires
and your next hires
and your next hires.
So literally what you do
when you're small really,
really matters, because it
will make your job so much
easier in the future.
So you have to be
uncompromising.
You might want to put
some metrics in place,
and then think outside the box.
Watch out also for gendered
language in job descriptions.
Really interesting, there
are some fascinating startups
that are going on.
Unitive is one.
Textio, Text.io is one, that
it literally goes through
and looks at your job
descriptions and flags gendered
language.
And that keeps basically women
and nontraditional candidates
away from even
applying for things.
So the way that
we describe roles
is gendered and begins that
process of bias that screens--
people self-screen out because
if you're looking for a rock
star coder, you're using
all this kind of language
and women are like,
eh, that's not me.
I just don't see myself in that.
NICOLE FARKOUH: Especially
if you're an introvert.
JENNIFER BROWN: Especially
if you're an introvert.
Exactly.
And my brilliant introvert--
so it really-- there's so many
places bias occurs, I think,
that keeps your pipeline
from being welcoming
to even think
of themselves as applying.
And so it's a long--
we can talk afterwards.
There's a lot more ideas.
And there's a lot of ideas
in here too of how to do it.
NICOLE FARKOUH: Well,
with that, we're
going to have to
end unfortunately.
JENNIFER BROWN: Yes.
NICOLE FARKOUH:
But thank you very
much for the rich conversation.
JENNIFER BROWN: Thank you, guys.
Thank you for coming.
[APPLAUSE]
NICOLE FARKOUH: Thank you
all so much for coming.
JENNIFER BROWN: So
good to see you all.
NICOLE FARKOUH: And
looking forward--
