[MUSIC PLAYING]
MICHELLE PHAM: Hello, everyone.
Thank you for joining us
on this lovely Wednesday.
Today, we'll have the
esteemed author, Min Jin Lee,
join us for the "Talks
at Google" program.
A graduate of the Bronx
High School of Science,
she studied history at
Yale and then received a JD
from Georgetown
University Law Center.
She's the author of "Free
Food for Millionaires"
and "Pachinko," and is
currently also the writer
in residence at Amherst.
So please give a
warm welcome to Min.
Hello, Min.
So wonderful to have
you with us here today.
Where are you right now, and
how are things where you are?
MIN JIN LEE: Well,
I live in Harlem,
and I live in New York City.
And I teach at
Amherst in the fall.
So I'm here, but I'm OK.
I'm OK.
It's just overwhelming.
MICHELLE PHAM: So
by overwhelming,
tell us more about that.
Is it the amount of
work you have going on,
the situation in New York?
MIN JIN LEE: Well, I just,
I find it really hard.
I find the sirens really hard.
Everybody I know-- there's
a lot of people that I know
have been laid off.
I know people who are
working harder than ever.
And I think that this is
a really difficult time.
And I think that--
I want to sound more optimistic,
but it's really discouraging,
sometimes.
And I want to figure
out a new narrative.
Because that's part of my job.
MICHELLE PHAM: As an
author, that's true.
Well, you seem very
deeply embedded in
and enamored of the
spirit of New York, right?
You went to high school here.
You grew up here.
And now you're writing here
back in New York again.
So as a writing
creator, how are you
thinking about
documenting these times?
Has quarantine changed
the way that you work?
MIN JIN LEE: Oh, the quarantine
has changed the way all of us
work.
I think that even just meeting
you right now virtually,
it's something that [INAUDIBLE].
I'm 51 years old, and
I'm not anti-technology.
I'm actually a pretty early
adopter of most things.
But at the same time, I'm
always kind of thinking,
like, wow, I have
to learn that again,
or I have to learn a new thing?
And there's constantly
new information.
And it's good because
it keeps you learning.
At the same time,
it also requires
you to learn more skills.
And very often, in this economy,
the thing that I really see
is that people are required
to know more things,
but they're not necessarily
rewarded or recognized
or compensated for those things.
And that's something that
I think that we all have
to be more thoughtful about.
MICHELLE PHAM: Absolutely.
I'm sure as things-- as people
get restructured, reshuffled,
there's going to
be that demand, so,
and empathy for
that is important.
So, you know,
coronavirus is kind of
at the forefront of
culture today, right?
And this is currently API
Month, the celebration
of Asian-American Pacific
Islander heritage here.
How have you been
navigating what
it means to be Asian-American
and even just of the broader
narrative, being a
person of color today.
What are you seeing?
What are you thinking of?
MIN JIN LEE: Well, today, I
was really surprised and really
saddened to hear about George
Floyd, who was murdered
yesterday, and to learn that
one of the four police officers
was Asian American.
And I think that
recognition of that
and speaking out
against the fact
that how Asian Americans can
be complicit against African
Americans is something that I
think we should all speak out
against, in the same way if
we expect allies when people
are attacking Asian Americans.
We should certainly
really think about how
we could be anti-racist.
And I think anti-racism
is the minimum requirement
that we have.
MICHELLE PHAM: Yeah, that's
very powerful, especially
during these times.
We've heard a lot of
saddening news affecting
a lot of minority communities.
So I agree with you
that that is something
that we should all
be doing, trying
to provide allyship and
community during these times.
So I want to talk a little
bit about your writing.
I know a lot of people
who are on the line today
are very excited about your
books, major superfans.
So I want to talk a
little bit about how
you became a writer, right?
So after graduating from
Yale and Georgetown,
you were a practicing lawyer
for a couple of years.
MIN JIN LEE: Yeah.
MICHELLE PHAM: What
actually catapulted you
into a career of writing?
What was that moment
when you realized,
I need to act in making a change
to actually begin writing?
MIN JIN LEE: Well, I used
to be a corporate person.
So for those of you guys who
are watching, you'll understand.
I remember thinking that, oh,
I don't know if I can do this.
It's really impossible.
And at one point,
I billed 300 hours
in a month, which
is a lot of hours.
I was working seven days a week.
And then I thought,
you know what?
I don't know.
And then I finished
a big project,
and I thought after I handed
it in, my partner would say,
good job, go home, because
you don't sleep anymore.
In fact, the partner gave
me another assignment.
And I remember, without any
preparation, I said, I quit.
Now I didn't quit
to be a writer.
And most people are
really surprised by this.
I thought that I had
to figure something out
because I didn't expect
to quit that day.
But it was the sheer overwork.
And I don't really
recommend this to you guys.
It's not well thought out.
And I only had
about $15,000 saved
in the bank, which
is a lot of money.
However, we had a
mortgage to pay.
So it was a lot of recoupling.
I didn't publish a novel until
11 years after I quit my job.
MICHELLE PHAM: Oh, wow.
MIN JIN LEE: Yeah.
So for those of you
who are thinking
about quitting, and writing
another book in two years,
and replacing your income,
maybe you could do it,
but I couldn't do it.
MICHELLE PHAM:
Well, looking back,
so you made this
pivotal decision--
I'm going to leave the law.
And then what led
you into writing?
As a child, did
you enjoy writing?
In your college years?
What eventually led
you down that path?
MIN JIN LEE: Oh,
I've always written.
I've always written.
I love writing.
It's actually the
only reason why
I stay a writer because being
a writer is really unstable.
And I always tell my students
this because they always
tend to think, well,
you're successful,
I should be a writer.
I'm thinking, you
should be a writer
if you want to write something,
but it doesn't really
work out the way you think
it's going to work out.
So that's one thing.
But how did I plan this?
I didn't really plan it.
I just really
thought I would try.
I thought I would
try, and then I
thought that I would
learn how to do it.
And I didn't have the
money to go get an MFA,
and so I took a lot
of cheap classes.
And then I kept on going.
And I was just really
discouraged the whole time
because I was just getting
rejections, upon rejections,
upon rejections.
And then I realized that the
thing that I wanted to do
was really difficult.
Now I look back and go,
oh, you wanted to write a
big, epic saga both times.
And I still want to write
these big, big books.
And I realized, oh, it
was kind of hard to do.
But back then, I just
thought I was a loser, so.
MICHELLE PHAM: Definitely
not the case, I think, ever.
But that's very inspiring,
the idea of all it takes
is just stepping out
and trying, right?
So for those who are aspiring
to write on top of existing day
jobs or multiple
jobs, what advice
do you have about
structuring time?
Or what helped you stay
focused, especially amidst
all the discouragement
and rejection
that you may have faced?
MIN JIN LEE: I think
what's really helpful,
when I talk to writers
who are working part-time,
or as a side hustle, or as
a private hobby that you
can't even discuss with
your family members--
I've met a lot of
those writers--
is to ask yourself why you
want to tell that story.
I would forget the applause.
I would forget the recognition.
I would forget the income.
If you forget those things
and say, oh, I really
want to write this because
I have something to say,
then I think that you're
going to write books,
and you're going
to write stories,
and you're going
to write essays.
And all those things, I
think, have the possibility
to be published.
But I think if you
focus on, oh things
are going to work
out for me, or I
don't have to show up to the
office anymore, I don't know.
I haven't seen that.
MICHELLE PHAM: So
it's interesting
that you talk about the stories
that you want to tell, right?
So I'm going to read
you one of your quotes.
MIN JIN LEE: Oh, boy.
MICHELLE PHAM: "It
makes sense that I'm
a writer, which
allows me to draft,
and to hesitate, and to
rewrite many times before I
say anything that I can
live with for good."
Right?
So writing is a way for many
people to find their voice.
And how have you gone about
finding yours and refining it
through this art medium?
MIN JIN LEE: It's been so,
so difficult just because--
I don't know how you grew
up, but as an Asian American
immigrant, in my culture
and my background,
I didn't know writers.
It wasn't like people were
hanging on my every word
when I was a child.
And I grew up in public
schools, and I didn't
have creative writing class.
Nowadays, if you send
the kid to school,
they'll come home--
in kindergarten,
they'll come with
four stapled pages
and go, oh, look, I wrote
a book and published it.
It's wonderful.
I didn't have that experience.
So in a way, all I did was read.
I read all the time.
In a way, I loved the thing,
the book, the written word.
But in terms of me
finding my own voice,
I think it took me a longer
time than most people
because I didn't know that what
I had to say even had value.
And I think that's
something that I'm
hoping your generation
and the generation younger
than you actually have
a stronger foundation.
I'm 51, so I'm a Gen Xer.
MICHELLE PHAM: Very young.
MIN JIN LEE: And I'm hoping
that the younger folks actually
feel like, oh, what
I say is important.
And why don't I keep
sharing what I think?
I really love what
my students say.
My students are so wonderful.
They're Generation Z, And
they have such cool thoughts.
And they have really
much better hearts,
I think, than the older folks.
So I want more of them to
talk and to [INAUDIBLE]..
MICHELLE PHAM: No, that's great.
It is true.
I had a very similar
childhood to yours.
I was also the daughter
of two refugees who came
from Vietnam after the war.
And during that time, I
also spent my childhood
as a bookworm, grew up
on the public library.
And then naturally, the
second question I had was,
should I become a lawyer?
I don't know.
I wasn't as strong as math
and science as I thought.
Maybe I should become a lawyer.
I have strengths there.
And you're right.
It is harder.
When growing up, I think I
read very few Asian authors,
or Asian Canadian, or
Asian American authors.
And it's very inspiring to
have you here with us today
because now when I
go to the bookstore,
I see last names that would
not usually appear in the '90s,
in the early 2000s as much.
So very inspirational
to have you here.
MIN JIN LEE: [INAUDIBLE].
MICHELLE PHAM: Well, I also
want to go back a little bit
to telling stories that are
often overlooked and not told,
right?
So your childhood was spent
here in New York, in Queens.
You've written before
that you were the daughter
of wholesale jewelers.
You've also said
that history has also
failed almost everyone
who is ordinary, right?
MIN JIN LEE: Yeah.
MICHELLE PHAM: So how did
your immigrant background
shape the way that you look
at characters you build?
And how can we
better find and tell
the stories of ordinary,
everyday people?
MIN JIN LEE: I think that
all of us know those stories.
And I think what's
really remarkable
to me is why we
don't think they're
worth telling in an epic way.
I really think that Asian
Americans are really cool,
and funny, and sexy, and smart.
And I'm really
surprised when they're
not recognized in that
way or presented that way.
And I don't think
that it's our fault.
I don't think I have to be
more interesting or more funny.
Actually, I think somebody
fucked up, but it's not me.
And I say this, including
in front of my students,
because their parents
aren't saying that.
Their parents
aren't saying that.
And I think very often,
the thing that I do take--
and I understand why.
I think that if your
parents are refugees--
and my father was
a war refugee--
and I think that if you
come from a working class
background, very often,
you're punished for speaking.
Speaking is actually
a costly thing.
And also, express
what you really think?
That requires that you
have a government that
allows you to speak.
And some of us come from
governments where you are not
allowed to say [INAUDIBLE].
You can still get in trouble
today for saying those things.
So it's an
extraordinary privilege.
So it's not just like,
I want to be a writer.
It's, oh, you want
to be a writer
and say what you believe.
And also, can you handle
the repercussions?
I'm a trustee of
PEN America, and one
of the reasons why I decided
to join the organization
is because the freedom to
say what you really believe
is actually an
extraordinary thing
that we must defend in this
country and also everywhere.
So that's a long way to
say, how do I find my voice?
How do I encourage
others to do it?
Even when I don't want to
say certain things, I try.
Because most of
the times, people
don't even see people like
you and me on the screen.
MICHELLE PHAM: Mm-hmm.
MIN JIN LEE: Right?
It's true.
[INAUDIBLE] saying things
that they're thinking,
oh, we didn't know that
Asians even thought this way.
I'm going, no, they
all think this way.
We all have different
kinds of thoughts.
But do you ever hear it
in a public platform?
And for that reason,
I decided to overcome
all of my anxieties,
and introversion,
and fear of speaking,
because I think we all
have to get out there more
and be willing to be judged.
MICHELLE PHAM: Absolutely.
Even recently, this past
weekend, Memorial Day weekend,
there were a couple
things I've been watching.
"The Other Half of It"
and "Never Have I Ever."
MIN JIN LEE: Sure.
MICHELLE PHAM: Back
[INAUDIBLE],, TV series
would've never featured Asian
Americans in the same way.
And now on Netflix, it's
in top trending media.
So I'm really curious about this
conversation about the freedom
to express and freedom to convey
the ideas that you have, right?
And you're right that for a lot
of groups that do come here,
and are working class,
and are immigrants,
there can be an aversion
to that at times, right?
I want to talk about writing as
a resistance born out of art.
And art is created by a person.
And in my vantage
point, the person
has always been political.
So as an author, are you
intentional about weaving this
into your work?
If yes, fiction,
nonfiction, how do you
look at the
effectiveness of medium?
And do you want to incite
action through the writing
that you create?
MIN JIN LEE: Oh, very much so.
I'm really political.
And actually, every one
of my pieces of writing
is incredibly political.
I'm not writing
just to entertain.
I think entertainment
is important
because I have to get
you to hang out with me.
Like, that's the trick.
But then when you
really think about it,
I'm really questioning
capitalism.
I'm questioning racism.
I'm questioning sexism.
I'm questioning this
whole idea being binary.
I'm questioning religion.
I'm questioning those things
because they don't always
serve us in the way that
they promise to serve us.
So even though I
am a capitalist,
I believe in capitalism,
I think that it's
been incredibly
offensive the way
it's been taken out
of control, and we
don't have any protections
for those who are vulnerable.
And the way I
explore my questions
is really through art.
Do I want to incite action?
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Because things aren't going to
change unless you're inspired
to stick your neck out.
And it's not easy to
stick your neck out.
MICHELLE PHAM: Absolutely.
I find that a huge demonstration
of courage on your part.
And also the medium in
which you deliver it,
I think, causes people to
really have a lot of reflection
about what they're reading.
So you mentioned the
entertainment part
is important, right?
So how do you really write
so that you engage readers
in this new world, right?
"Pachinko" was not set
in modern day times,
but people spent hours
poring over the book.
How do you humanize
a different culture
as you did in "Pachinko"?
What type of research or
writing strategies did you use?
MIN JIN LEE: Well,
I think that if you
don't have the tools
of drama, you're
not going to be able to convince
people, or a lot of people,
to stay with you.
And I think that the narrative
tools of drama, whether it's
conflict, tone, point of
view, plot, characterization,
imagery, lyricism, all those
things that I'm mentioning,
diction, syntax,
it's like a tool kit.
I imagine that if you're
a software engineer,
you have to learn the
language in which to make
the best possible product.
Well, I had to learn
a language of drama.
And that, you can't just
say, oh, I feel inspired.
I'm going to write a story.
It doesn't really work that way.
There's actually a lot of rules.
There's a lot of glitches.
And if you don't do it, you're
going to have a lot of bugs.
So I think about that, one.
But then also, what is it
that I really want to say?
And then if you don't have
something that you want to say,
and if you don't have
the tools, you're
not going to be
able to create art.
And I think that a lot of people
who aren't from the humanities
very often think that in the
humanities, it's anything goes.
And that is so
completely untrue.
And I say this as somebody
who went to the Bronx High
School of Science.
Actually, I'm really competent
in math and sciences.
And I have nothing but
respect for all the people
that I went to high
school with who ended up
winning Nobels kind of thing.
And I'm saying this
because there's a science,
and there's an
architecture and a beauty
if you look underneath
how great art is created.
But I also think it's important
that you have something to say.
And that takes some
faith that it has value.
And that's really hard for
a lot of Asian Americans
because they haven't
been encouraged
to do this in this country.
Because they're new.
They're new.
And even if you're
really, really old,
you could be multi-generations,
like six, seven generations
in the United States, the
culture right now says
that you're still foreign.
And the forever foreign
quality of Asian Americans
makes it really hard to
say what you believe.
And it takes a risk.
MICHELLE PHAM: So
going onto that,
you just spoke about, hey,
it may seem that writing
is a little bit different
than, let's say,
software engineering,
and anything goes.
But there's actually
quite an art to it, right?
And a lot of determination
and work behind it.
So what does a writer's
day actually look like?
Because most of us at
Google, a few of us, I know,
have published books and are in
the process of writing books,
or have dreams and little seeds
of eventually getting there.
But what does your
day-to-day really
look like in your
wonderful office?
MIN JIN LEE: Oh, I
work all the time.
I'm constantly working.
I actually have five jobs.
So most people don't know this.
MICHELLE PHAM: [INAUDIBLE].
MIN JIN LEE: I have five jobs
which are actually paid jobs.
I have other jobs that
I'm not paid at all.
And when you're a
modern writer now,
and if you establish any kind of
success, part of my unpaid job,
which takes an enormous
amount of time,
is just being a good
literary citizen.
For example, I judge awards.
So last year, I judged
a Pulitzer Prize.
And the year before that, I
judged a National Book Award.
You can't even imagine how
many things you've got to do.
And that's just something that
you're paid a modest amount,
but you do it because it's
part of being a good citizen.
I teach at Amherst in the fall.
What else do I do?
I also give public
lectures, which
takes me around the world.
And then I also
do freelance work.
So last week, I had a piece
in "The New York Times,"
and I was talking about COVID-19
and how we treat merchants.
What else is there?
I also-- was that four?
I can't remember.
And I'm working on this
little thing for television
right now, which is
another kind of writing.
So there's all these
different kinds of writing.
Whether you write a speech,
or whether you teach a class,
or whether you write
novels, or whether you
write articles for
newspapers, they're
all different kinds of writing.
And I work all the time.
Like last night, I was working--
and I have to start the whole
thing again because I really
didn't do it well--
I am writing the
introduction for "The Great
Gatsby" for Penguin Classics
when it comes out in January.
So I'm introducing probably
the most widely read novel
about Americans in the world.
MICHELLE PHAM: That's
highly impressive.
And did I just hear
you say you're also
working on a TV series?
I know you probably can't share
too much information about it,
but is it "Pachinko" that's
going to be on TV soon.
MIN JIN LEE: Oh, no.
I'm not working on that.
MICHELLE PHAM: Not
working on that.
Not working on that.
OK.
MIN JIN LEE: [INAUDIBLE].
It's my first book.
MICHELLE PHAM: Your
first book, OK.
You just talked about being
a great literary citizen
and contributing to
those causes, right?
In interviews that I've
read that you've given,
you have mentioned
that you grew up
building your mind in the
public library, right?
So what do you see
ahead for libraries?
And as an author, how do you
think that reading will maybe
evolve or remain the
same in the years
to come as you think
about the audience
that you're writing for?
MIN JIN LEE: The thing
that I'm very worried
about for your generation
and for younger people
is your attention span.
And it's not your fault. It's
not Generation Z's fault.
It's not the baby
Generation Z's fault either.
We are being programmed to
care so much about things
in a really shallow way
because our attention is
being pulled everywhere.
Books are a way for you
to hack that process.
I understand that we all
have to know a lot of things,
and information is going to be
given to us by fire hydrants.
I get that.
However, a book, especially
a physical object,
and you put aside
your phone for a bit,
will help you get
your attention back.
So part of that is
really important.
Now that means that books need
to be available everywhere.
Will books be
available everywhere?
Books that are out of copyright
are available everywhere.
And other books like newer
books, for the most part,
they're available in libraries.
So if we really care
about a democracy,
we have to support libraries.
I wouldn't be here as a
writer unless I came out
of the library system because we
didn't have money to buy books.
Books aren't cheap.
MICHELLE PHAM: Of course.
It's interesting that you talk
about that attention span.
I'm sure many people
here probably will think
about this moving forward.
So I want to switch
gears a little bit.
You're quite open about your
faith and your Christianity,
right?
In a piece that
you were involved
in with "The Atlantic,"
you share the idea
that goodness can
come from suffering.
And that concept that goodness
can come from suffering
has influenced a
lot of your work.
So can we unpack that
a little bit, right?
What does that look and feel
like in your day-to-day life,
when you're blueprinting
a book, when
you're building story arcs?
MIN JIN LEE: I grew
up as a Christian.
My grandfather was a
Presbyterian minister,
and he ran an orphanage
for war orphans
who came from Japan
back to South Korea
when they suffered
from the bombings
in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
So I come from a tradition
where Christians actually
have done good things
with the problems
that we have in the world today.
That said, I've also
felt very strongly
that there are a lot of
really shitty Christians.
And I'm always wondering,
well, what's my faith in this?
How do I behave in a world
where most of the Christians who
are out there who are arguing
against things I don't believe
in, what do I do about that?
So I have this macro philosophy
and a macro, I guess,
metaphysical problem.
And then when I create my art,
I try to think about, well,
what is it that I want to say?
And all of my characters get
to present different sides
of the argument.
And that's really
important because I
think that if I was
just sermonizing,
no one would read my books.
And I wouldn't read my books.
I wouldn't even care.
Writing a sermon is
entirely different,
or telling people
what to believe
is entirely different than
letting my reader decide
for himself or herself.
My first novel, my main
character is agnostic.
And I wanted very much to
have the main character
to be agnostic
because I wanted her
to present all of her doubts.
Because I think
faith without doubt
is not really a
true faith at all.
And as for goodness
coming out of suffering,
that has to be our hope.
Because if we just
had meaningless
suffering relentlessly
throughout the creation
of history, I don't
know if we can go on.
MICHELLE PHAM: Mm-hmm.
Following that
trail of suffering,
we're going to transition
over to challenges.
You've also described your
experience of going to Yale,
and being in a
classroom, and having
to ask your fellow students,
what is Stonehenge?
Right?
Now that you're so
situated in your career,
you're a well-known author,
commercially successful,
how do you find ways
to retain empathy,
to stretch your
capacity for compassion,
also to find new ways
to challenge yourself?
Because you're so far
evolved from where
you were at 17, 18, 19,
that student at Yale who
didn't have an idea of what
Stonehenge was at the time.
MIN JIN LEE: Oh, actually,
as a matter of fact,
I always say this in public when
people ask me about that essay.
If I had Google Images back
then, I would have been OK.
So thank you, Google.
[INAUDIBLE]
But I actually don't
feel removed at all
from that young person.
As a matter of fact,
I worked really
hard to keep that
sensibility of wonder.
I would never disavow
that person that I was.
I really liked me at 17.
I was a dork, and awkward,
and socially strange,
and I still am in many ways.
I just hide it much better.
I have better
clothes than I did.
I think that person
was an innocent person.
And I think to try to stay
innocent in this world is
one of the things
that we have to do.
We have to be really wise,
and we have to be savvy,
but we don't have to be cynical,
and we don't have to be jerks.
And I think success could
ruin a person, it really can.
And it's something that you
have to be on the watch for,
in the same way, if
you start making money,
to forget that other
people don't have money,
and it's not because
they don't work hard,
that requires some awareness
of the way history works.
And I think that constant
learning can sometimes
help you become a more
compassionate person.
But it's not always, because
really well educated people
have committed some of the
worst atrocities in the world.
So it's not always education.
But I think education plus
compassion [INAUDIBLE]..
MICHELLE PHAM: I find
it really fascinating
to hear you describe it that
way because my childhood sounds
very similar to yours.
And the idea of being 17, 18,
being a little dorky, and now
evolving.
Maybe you have better
clothes, better eyebrows.
[INAUDIBLE]
Feel the same way inside.
I would love to know,
were there communities
that help you stay grounded?
What were some
activities that you
did, or literature
that you read,
or people that you stayed in
touch with that helped you stay
well-rounded and grounded
during the time when maybe you
were commercially,
successfully taking off?
MIN JIN LEE: Well, I'm a parent.
So if you have a
child, you will know
you are not that important.
[INAUDIBLE]
And I'm married.
I've been married for 26 years.
So I'm fully aware
of how wrong I am.
And I mention those two
things in case people
have those kinds
of relationships,
because if you are
honestly in love
with people, if you
honestly love people,
you know how stupid you are.
You know how many
times you mess up.
And I think that's a good thing.
It's a good thing.
Because one of the
things I'm very devoted
to is the idea of
constant learning.
And if I'm really
constantly learning,
that means that I have to listen
when people don't like me,
or if I mess up, and to
be able to take criticism.
That's terribly
important for learning.
And that really just
happens in community.
It happens in relationships.
I don't like it sometimes.
I don't want to look like
an asshole sometimes,
but sometimes, I do that,
just in my own house.
And I just think, oh.
And also, you know
what's really the worst
part about being more busy
is how I feel like I can't be
as good of a friend
as I should be
because I have a lot of work.
And then I have to go, well,
I have to read this book
and give this total stranger
a quote, which will take a day
or two days for me to
read somebody's work
that I don't know,
that means that I can't
have lunch with my friend.
Right?
I don't remember the last time
I had lunch with a friend,
really.
I'm talking years.
I also don't go on vacations.
Most people don't know that.
So I don't actually walk
around feeling very successful.
I always feel like I'm behind,
and that's a personality thing.
I also have mental
health issues.
I have anxiety, and
depression, and OCD.
And these are things that
I really struggle with.
And very often, when
I have to say no,
it's really difficult for me.
And I have to have all my
priorities set and weigh, like,
there's no way that you can do
this, so then I have to say no.
MICHELLE PHAM: So how do
you combat, especially
during a time like this,
the potential burnout?
What helps you relax and
unwind in day-to-day life?
MIN JIN LEE: I don't
work on Sundays,
so that's a non-negotiable.
I don't even answer emails on
Sundays unless you're dying.
That's important because I
don't want to feel like a slave.
And then the other six days, I
do work around the clock, I do.
So the other day on Monday,
I went to bed at 4:00
in the morning.
And I'm not proud of it.
I think that I keep thinking,
maybe if I was more clever,
I wouldn't have
to work this way.
Because I know other
authors who pop out books
every two, three
years, stay on tour,
and have their shit together.
So I think, they just have
got to be smarter than me.
I don't know.
MICHELLE PHAM: Those early years
of corporate law never left.
Well, I'm curious
to also know when
it comes to always
learning, what
are you reading, or consuming,
or interested in in these past
two months, when, all of a
sudden, sheltering in place?
MIN JIN LEE: So I was talking
about the "Gatsby" thing
earlier.
So I was asked to
write an introduction
for Penguin a while
ago, several months ago.
And I was like, oh, that
sounds really interesting.
I want to do that because
I'm interested in it,
and I've also read "Gatsby"
I don't know how many times.
But I don't think I realized
that much about his life.
So then I went and bought--
I have literally
right next to me
about 15 different books
about "Gatsby," about Zelda.
So at this point,
I can get on Reddit
and do an AMA on Fitzgerald.
I know everything.
And then I realized part
of it was for my essay,
but most of it was just
because I was really curious.
How do you have this life?
He had a really tragic life,
and also a very phoenix
kind of life where
he was so glorious.
He was initially
very, very glorious,
and then he crashed and burned.
And I guess he became more
like Icarus more than phoenix,
but yeah.
So doing the thing that
I really care about,
but it's not a very
good priority for me
because I should
be doing something
else I promised to do.
So it just becomes troubling.
MICHELLE PHAM: Well,
we're going to have
Q&A in about the next
two or three minutes,
so I'm going to close
off on a high note here.
What are some upcoming projects
that we can look forward
to in the next coming years from
you, for all your lovely fans
in the audience?
MIN JIN LEE: Oh,
well, thank you.
I have a memoir coming out.
I'm not quite sure when.
I'm working on it right now.
I've been working
on it for about--
gosh, like, 20 years.
Off and on, I've been
working on this project
for about 20 years.
And it's called
"Name Recognition."
And it's a memoir.
It's about learning how to talk.
And it's about being an
Asian American woman,
and being an immigrant,
and my childhood.
But it's really
about how I learned
to express what I believe.
And it's called
"Name Recognition."
And I guess that'll come out
before "American Hagwon," which
is the third novel,
which completes
the trilogy, hopefully,
of the Koreans.
MICHELLE PHAM: That's amazing.
Thank you so much, Min.
And now we're going to move
over to the Q&A section.
So this is a new
experience for Min and I,
so we're going to
look through some
of these many questions that
are happening here on the side.
So I think the first one
that we're going to go into
is from--
MIN JIN LEE: I
[INAUDIBLE] realize
I was still on private chat.
Golly.
MICHELLE PHAM: Yeah, I'm in
the live comments section
right now.
So this is from Sanghamitra.
"Any advice on how you
bridge the experience
as an immigrant growing up in
two quite different worlds,
in writing?"
MIN JIN LEE: I'm sorry,
can you repeat that?
I didn't get the question.
MICHELLE PHAM: Yeah, so
let me rephrase this.
So do you have any advice
on how to bridge experiences
as an immigrant growing up
in two very different worlds,
let's say, like
at home, maybe you
have a very different
world, out in America,
or Canada, or Australia, very
different world, in writing?
MIN JIN LEE: Ah.
Oof.
Well, I don't know
how you're going
to feel about this answer.
But your body is that bridge.
It's actually you.
You're the bridge between
these two experiences.
And if you're really
authentic in both places,
and if you're really
honest in both places,
then I think that
you'll be a living
testament to other people.
You are literally
witnessing to the world
of how it is for both of you.
I don't ever deny
where I'm from.
I'm not trying to pass for
having had a country club
background when I didn't.
In the same way, if
I'm at a country club,
and I've been to country clubs,
I feel perfectly like, oh,
why don't I have access to this?
That's the beautiful
promise of America
is you can have those
opportunities in both places.
But what I think
really hurts people--
and this shows up in my
character Noa in "Pachinko"--
is that if you try to pretend
that you're something that
you're not, it will kill you.
MICHELLE PHAM:
Literally in the book.
That did happen.
I hope there wasn't
a spoiler there
for anyone who
hasn't read the book.
Onto the next question.
So this is a question
coming from Jen.
"When do you find yourself
facing artistic uncertainty
or doubt in the story that
you're trying to tell,
and how do you overcome that
artistic uncertainty or doubt?"
MIN JIN LEE: Oh, holy shit.
I'm doing this right now.
I'm writing this
essay about "Gatsby."
And it's supposed to
be a personal essay,
but it's sort of
a scholarly essay.
I've written 3,200
words in the past week,
and I should've written 1,500.
I have the option
of going longer.
And guess what?
This morning, it
occurred to me, I was so
pissed off, because I
was like, oh, it's wrong.
I hate this.
I hate this so much.
I'm going to start
all over again.
So I actually have to go now.
I feel this with every single
piece of writing that I do.
And my family watches me,
going, you are so pathetic.
What is your problem?
But I never sit down
and go, oh, I got this.
I don't feel that way.
I torture myself, and I
go through all the work,
and I go through
all the research.
And then I also
draft so many times.
I did a talk like this with
"The New York Times" recently,
and I literally showed my
wastebasket with my drafts.
Because my piece in "The
Times" that came out,
I guess, two weeks
ago, I literally
had handed it in the morning
that I did a talk with "The New
York Times" office.
And there was a
similar question.
And I literally showed
all of my pieces of paper.
So-- I can't.
It's just too messy.
But I scribble a lot.
I outline.
And then I just keep banging
my head against my desk
until blood shows up.
How do I overcome it?
I don't quit.
Yes.
I don't quit.
MICHELLE PHAM: Yes.
Winners never quit
on themselves.
You got to keep on running.
MIN JIN LEE: [INAUDIBLE].
I wanted to share
one thing, it's
very important, is
you have to look
at yourself and your identity.
And I believe that
I'm a finisher.
I don't think I'm quick, or
smart, or better than anybody
else, but I definitely
feel like I'm a finisher.
And I think that makes
me go, OK, well, you're
going to get there, it's
just not going to be fast.
MICHELLE PHAM: I
like that attitude.
It's so funny that you mentioned
the talk with "The New York
Times."
One of my very good
friends is an editor there,
and she actually went to
the talk that you did there.
And then she was also like,
did you read Min's new article
in "The New York Times"?
The Op-Ed?
If anyone who is on
this line right now
hasn't had the chance to look
at Min Jin Lee in "The New York
Times" in the most
recent Op-Ed, it's
really quite
compelling story of how
we can be more
empathetic to those
who are on the
front lines, or who
are doing a lot of the
behind-the-scenes work that
is helping us enjoy some
of the modern conveniences
that we have today.
So onto the next question.
What shall we choose?
OK.
This question comes
from Sara Sim.
"How do you tell the stories of
identities you may have not--"
oh, sorry--
"may not have or experiences
you don't directly
have in ways that respect
those cultures or groups?"
MIN JIN LEE: Oh, research.
Research, field work,
interviews, and revision.
And also, you better fucking
get your facts straight.
I have no patience.
I tell my students, you
can write about whatever
you want to write
about, but it's
going to be harder if you
don't know anything about it,
if it's not within
your life experience.
You should do it
if you feel it's
important for your stories,
but then ask yourself why,
and then also just do the work.
And also, you should
really check the sources.
So I interview constantly.
So if you wanted to write
about something that's really
not your lived experience,
I would go to the places
where they work.
I would visit their
homes if you can.
I would listen to as many
things as humanly possible.
And also be willing to show
your work to that person
or to that community,
because if you can't really
stand the pain of the
light, then you're not
entitled to the light.
MICHELLE PHAM: Thank you.
And the next one--
I just want to get in as
many questions as possible.
So let's see here.
Two people have asked this
question, Julian Hackney
and Trang Pham.
"Who are some of your
favorite authors?"
MIN JIN LEE: Oh, I think my
favorite book of all time
is George Eliot's "Middlemarch."
It's not a popular answer
for modern readers.
The books that have
really influenced me
that are modern Americans
are probably Toni Morrison,
Alice Walker, James Baldwin.
In terms of Asian
American authors
that I have really admired--
there's so many Asian
American authors today,
and I don't want
to offend anybody.
I think one of the things
that most people haven't
thought about is "Clay
Walls" by Ronyoung Kim.
"Clay Walls."
And it's a historic novel.
The author is dead.
And then in terms of 18th
century novels of Americans
and early 20th
century, Sinclair Lewis
is somebody that I really loved.
I do like Fitzgerald's
"Gatsby" very much,
so much so that I spent two
weeks that I shouldn't have
been spending on this essay.
And who else do I really love?
Gosh.
I'm so promiscuous when
I read, and I really
want you to be
promiscuous when you read.
Because I also read
a lot of scholarship.
I read a lot of
biography, and I also
read a lot of academic work
like university presses.
I actually read
sociology and economics.
I really love economics.
Most people don't know
how much I do, but I do.
MICHELLE PHAM: Thank
you for sharing.
Economics is a surprising one.
Where do you usually get--
are these economic
books, economic journals?
Where are you getting
the information from, out
of curiosity for myself?
MIN JIN LEE: Oh, I'll even
read "Foreign Affairs,"
if they have an
issue on economics.
I've been reading
"Capital" recently.
I read the business
section pretty well.
And I'm always talking
to Wall Street people.
I talk to a lot of
people who are DC people.
I want to understand power.
And if you want to
understand power,
you have to understand money.
So it's not because
I want money.
It's really like, how do
you make these decisions?
And also, how are our
lives affected by the way
business people think?
And that requires some
understanding of philosophy
and economics as a philosophy.
MICHELLE PHAM: Absolutely.
It touches everything,
every part of our lives,
whether or not we may
realize it or not.
So the next question
that we have here.
Let's take a look.
Gosh, there are so many right
now I'm trying to go through.
This is from Sharon Kam.
"Can you comment
on mental health
in the context of
being Asian American,
and the culture of
not talking about it,
and how to stay the
course without breaking?"
MIN JIN LEE: Oh, I
talk about it only
because I have seen
too many young Asian
Americans suffer silently.
And I want people to
know that I have anxiety,
I have depression,
and I also have OCD.
And I have been in therapy
for over two decades.
And it has been so
incredibly important to me.
And I really encourage folks
to talk to people about it
and to talk about it.
And I realize there are
discriminatory aspects
of saying all those things.
And I'm sharing it because
I want you to know.
And you could tell your
parents, Min Jin Lee is crazy,
whatever it is you
want to say, because I
don't think of it as a negative
thing to have these things.
I just think it's
part of who I am.
So for example, OCD is a
total pain in the ass to have.
However, my work reflects how
careful I am, how precise I am.
So [INAUDIBLE],, I
think there's got to be
some upside to this thing.
But it takes me longer
to do things because I
care that much about precision.
And rather than always thinking
of it as something negative,
you could really try to see it
as, not necessarily positive,
but as something real
with real repercussions.
And the upside of being
an anxious person?
I will keep my word.
I will do what I said I was
going to do, for the most part,
because so far, my anxiety
hasn't overtaken my competence.
But we don't really talk
about all these things.
And it's hard.
It's really hard.
I had an eating
disorder in college,
and I've written about
it, not because it's
interesting to anybody, really.
At the same time, I'm so sick
and tired of Asian Americans
hating the way they look.
I'm so sick and tired of it.
I think we're so hot.
MICHELLE PHAM: I love it.
I would agree too.
I hope that the folks in the
chat will feel that way, too.
I actually love how you've
used Asian Americans,
and hot, and sexy
during this talk
because it's rarely
a narrative that
is pushed in modern
mainstream culture,
hopefully one that will
prevail in times to come.
But I'm getting a kick out of it
because I haven't heard anyone
describe it that way before.
MIN JIN LEE: Isn't that
weird, if you think about it?
Isn't that weird that people
aren't talking about the fact
that Asian Americans are funny?
Or that they're attractive?
Just recently, someone
I know on Twitter
was mentioning how great
Asian American men's hair is.
And I was like, yes, I co-sign.
MICHELLE PHAM:
This is very true.
MIN JIN LEE:
[INAUDIBLE] great hair.
And my son has a great hair,
and I'm thinking, yeah.
But why aren't we talking about
how great Asian American men's
hair is?
MICHELLE PHAM: That's very true.
I think we have room for
just one more question.
Let's go to Rena's question.
Since this was going to be a
conversation about writing,
makes sense that the last
question that we have
is in line of writing.
And so Rena, and
she is asking, "What
is the practice that we can
do to be a better writer?"
MIN JIN LEE: You're not going
to like this answer, Rena.
But you know what?
I'm just going to share
what I teach in my class.
I have a requirement
with my writing
assignments, the
ones that are graded,
is that you hand
in one draft which
is given a prospective grade.
It's a temporary grade.
So you might get, let's say, a
B-plus in this thing that you
hand in, but it's not counted.
But the second draft has
to be completely rewritten
with the same story, which
means you start at word one.
And then that draft is graded.
And all my students are
like, what the fuck?
What do you mean I have to
write-- it's not moving stuff
around, like moving a paragraph
here, or moving a paragraph
there, or changing a sentence.
No, no, no.
And I'm not asking
you to copy it.
I want you to start a word
one and then see what happens.
I have never seen
a story get worse,
or an essay get worse, as a
result of starting at word one.
Just try it.
Just try it once.
You could get mad at
me all you want to,
but you might be surprised at
how much better something is.
If you meet real writers who
are publishing lots of books,
they'll always talk about,
oh, I threw that draft out.
That's because you had to.
MICHELLE PHAM: So
thank you, Min,
for being with us here today.
And thank you, everyone,
for all your questions.
I'm sorry that we can't
get to all of them.
But it was such a
breath of fresh air
to hear your optimism
and the depth of the way
that you think during these
times, and just a kind reminder
that we should all be empathetic
and aware of everything that's
happening around us.
So thank you for coming
to Google, virtually,
to share this with us.
And I wish there was round of
applause that you could hear,
but you'll just see me.
But thank you, everyone,
for being here today.
And with that, we'll sign off.
Thank you, Min.
MIN JIN LEE: Thank you.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
