- [Micene] Hello, everyone,
and thank you very much
for being with us.
My name is Micene Fontaine.
I am Executive Director
for Design Arts Seminars.
I'm very happy to have Dr.
Toby Israel with us today.
Dr. Israel is the founder of
the field of Design Psychology
and here with us today
to discuss her book,
Some Place Like Home,
Using Design Psychology
to Create Ideal Places.
Also with us today is Lynne Wilkinson
who is one of our CEU presenters,
subject matter experts,
and also an NCIDQ
certified interior designer
based in Austin, Texas.
Before we get going, Toby,
to someone unfamiliar with the
topic of design psychology,
how would you define it?
- [Toby] Well, it has
an official definition.
I say it is the practice
of architecture, planning,
and interior design in which psychology
is the principle of design tool.
- [Lynne] Interesting.
Now, I'm always curious
when I come across authors
of different kinds of books
and I always wanna find out what led you
to write a book on design psychology?
- [Toby] Right, interesting question.
Well, I started out, I've had
a couple of different lives
and in my first life, I was a teacher
and I worked with children in some
very interesting educational settings
and was interested in how they
interacted with those places
and also, looked at some new
ways to design school buildings
and I thought, gee, I'm really
interested in architecture,
thought I might wanna be an architect,
looked at all the different
architecture schools
that I was interested in going with
and found that most of them were about
either function or aesthetics
and very few of the programs,
if any, talked about the
people aspect of places
and really, it was the people aspect
that I was interested in.
I kind of went away a little bit dejected
and then, came across the field
of environmental psychology
and that field is a field where we look
to see how the environment affects people
and people affect the
environment in order to create
a fit or a match between people and place
and when I found out about
that field, I thought, eureka!
(laughing)
It really was the people aspect,
how people respond to places
socially and emotionally
that I was interested in,
as much as the aesthetic
and functional aspect of place.
So, I went, I got a PhD in that field,
but part of the problem with
environmental psychology,
and I love my environmental
psychology colleagues,
is that's a research field
and I was really interested in turning it
into a field that could be applied.
- [Micene] Now, given
that we are a continuing
education company, a lot of time is spent
wondering how the different
topics that we come across
enhance, health, safety, and
well-being for the end user.
So, how will knowing more
about design psychology
help design professionals
enhance and promote the health,
safety, and well-being of their clients?
- [Toby] Right.
Well, for one thing, I
say I'm on a mission.
I particularly want to,
first, raise the consciousness
of designers that this
social and emotional aspect,
how people respond
emotionally and interact
with other people is just as important
as the aesthetic and functional aspects
because, very often, what's
taught in design schools
are things about the
aesthetics and the function.
That's the first part of it.
I teach people that, oh,
okay, there's this whole
other world that I don't
really know that much about
and then, once they're kind of convinced
that it's really important,
I have a design psychology
toolbox, which is basically
a programming process
that designers can use
to help their clients,
what I call, design from
within their inner psychology
to support their positive
growth and change.
- [Lynne] Okay, so in other words,
we were always taught in
school, it's form and function,
so you're really just talking about form,
function, and feelings.
Adding another layer.
- [Toby] That's a great way to put it.
- [Lynne] Okay, well, I
am an old school designer.
I won't even tell you how old.
But, one of the things is, when
I was back in design school,
when we were using stone
tablets and chisels,
I started out with hand drafting
and when you have to hand draft,
your design process is very different.
It takes place in your head.
And, I'm working with
the young designers now
and a lot of them have never
even learned to hand draft.
They've gone straight into
the computer-assisted drafting
or the CAD drafting, and I
noticed that their designs
lack some things because, I think,
that part of the process has changed
and in your book you specifically mention
that you think CAD has
really affected design
and I'm curious, what
do you think this impact
of technology is gonna be on design
and the design process,
because it's becoming
more prevalent.
- Right.
Well, everything has
its upside and downside.
The great news about CAD
is that you can do a lot
of things more quickly
and you can do things
with technology to create building types
that are more complex than
you might have been able to do
if you were just using hand drawings,
but the process of drawing, itself,
is an expressive art form,
as any visual artist will tell you.
Again, there's that kind of human aspect
that can be left out
or kind of sensitivity
that you may not be tapping
into if you're a designer
just using CAD or BIM or one of the newest
and greatest types of
systems to create a space.
- [Lynne] I agree.
- [Micene] Talking about the human aspect.
In your book, you zoom
in on three individuals:
Andres Duany, Michael
Graves, Charles Jencks,
and I was just curious, why did you select
those three examples?
- [Toby] Well, it was as
much a practical reason
and serendipity as anything else.
I started off with Michael Graves
because he lived up the street from me,
here in Princeton, New Jersey,
and I simply wrote him
a letter and said, okay,
here's what I'm doing, this
is what I'm writing about,
and would you like to be involved?
And, lo and behold, he said yes.
It was very easy to walk up
the street and work with him
and, of course, he was a
great person to work with
because he is, or was, an
internationally known architect.
Then, he knew Charles Jencks and he knew
that Charles Jencks was very interested
in meaning in architecture,
symbols in architecture,
and he thought that Charles
Jencks would be interested
in what I was up to, so he
referred me to Charles Jencks.
And then, in terms of Andres Duany,
I was working for an
architecture and planning firm,
running their research division,
and that architecture firm,
the Looney Ricks Kiss,
was doing work with Andres Duany
and they got very interested
in what I was doing,
so Looney Ricks Kiss put
me on to Andreas Duany.
That's how it happened.
- [Lynne] One thing I
noticed as I was reading
through the book, all
three of those gentlemen
are really well known for being proponents
of new types of architecture.
They've basically been the
founders of quite a few
of these things.
Post-modernism, in particular,
and just the term of that
and the whole idea of new urbanism.
A lot of those things from
these three gentlemen.
I'm just curious, was one of the reasons
that you kind of did hone in on them,
a little serendipity in
too, but that they're doing
the new versions of the built environment
and I thought it was
really interesting to see
how the old aspects, going
back into environmental design
and psychology, how they kind
of used that to build theirs.
Was that another element of the selection
of their appropriateness for your books?
- [Toby] Well, I'd like to say yes
and it was all a very plotted out plan,
but it really wasn't.
(laughing)
And, in fact, I would have
liked to have other architects
and interior designers represented
who had a different approach,
just to kind of show that, okay,
no matter what your style
is in terms of architecture,
it all comes from, unconsciously,
your childhood experience or place
and the direction that you
go in is influenced by that.
But, I've kind of, now, decided
to redress that imbalance
and I'm working on another
book that, in particular,
not just includes, but focuses
on women in architecture
with different styles
and different approaches.
- [Lynne] Wonderful, wonderful.
And, even somebody who's
an historic architect
could address that and, particularly,
when it comes to the
past, and I really liked
how you broke out your book and
the tools to do this process
into past, present, and future,
and in the section that
you did on the past,
I thought it was kind of interesting
that you mentioned this archetype.
The archetype of self and
the symbolism of the home.
Can you tell us a little bit more about
what you mean by that?
- [Toby] Well, I wasn't
the first one to look
at personal history with place,
what we call environmental autobiography,
and how that influences your
sense of place and home.
One person who I was
particularly interested in
and influenced by was a woman
named Clare Cooper Marcus
who wrote a landmark article called
House as a Symbol of Self,
and basically, what she talked
about were those archetypes
that were coming from the
psychologist Carl Gustav Jung,
who believed that there was a connection
between, for example,
symbolism around house
and symbolism around self.
All of these people, including myself,
believe that we carry
around these archetypes,
these almost primal
notions of self and house
and they're reflected both in our dreams
and in what we unconsciously create.
- [Micene] Certainly rings true for me.
Now, earlier, you started
mentioning the toolbox
that you are trying in your book
and I started doing the exercises
and definitely very insightful.
What I was wondering is how would you like
to see design professionals
apply these tools?
- [Toby] Right.
Well, this idea that we kind
of unconsciously hold within us
our sense of place is kind
of like what we could call
a hidden dimension that
we're not really aware of.
The first thing I like designers to do
is to do what you've done,
is take themselves through these exercises
to become aware of their
own design predispositions.
For example, designer might
be working with a client
and think, oh, this color is perfect
or this particular
style would work so well
and, especially if they're
not good at digging
with a client or don't have
that expertise fine tuned,
they might assume, just
because they as the designer
like that, that that works for the client.
First, the designer has to become aware
of the difference between
their predisposition
and that of the client and then,
once they're a little bit more attuned to,
okay, there's this whole
psychological dimension,
then they can use the toolbox
as a programming technique,
a programming process, to
delve into their own client's
past, present, and
future, which in effect,
reveals that hidden dimension,
that sense of self and place that may not,
or probably doesn't come to the fore,
and most designers have been
trained to use that technique.
- [Lynne] Interesting because,
I think, a lot of designers
are unconsciously, or subconsciously...
Not sure of the proper term on that.
I think, a lot of them might
be subconsciously doing that
to a certain degree.
The joke in the industry is
that, to a certain degree,
anybody who does interior design
is part marriage counselor,
part therapist, a little
bit of everything.
We're kind of the hairdressers
of the design world.
We are kind of doing a little bit of this
and, as I was going through
your book, I tell you what,
there are some really
great tools in there.
There really are and great
ways to phrase the questions
to get to usable information.
It's wonderful to have an
interview with your client,
but you need to be able
to apply what you learn
and so, they were great for guiding that.
That was some of the
things that I took away,
but when you were writing this book,
I'm sure that you had something
that you really wanted
people to just be able
to take away from it
at the conclusion of it.
And, if professionals in
the industry are the ones
who are reading the book, what
is it that you really want
them to be able to do to
take away from the book?
- [Toby] That's a great question.
Basically, what I want people to take away
is that there is meaning in place.
That there are messages about people,
who they are and what
their life journey is
and the idea of design
psychology is to tap
into the meaning that places
uniquely have for each person
so that, when we design and design from,
again, what I call design from within,
we can help people express
and tell their own story
and move along their own life's journey
in a positive and fulfilling way
as expressed by their home
design or space design.
- [Lynne] Okay.
I've got a little followup question
that's kind of partly on that.
The kids that are growing up today,
their past in another
25 years is going to be
vastly different than
any of our generation
because they grew up with
such a different world
and technology and
dynamics between people.
How do you envision that that might impact
what buildings look like?
Do you think buildings are gonna
really change significantly
because their psychology's
gonna be so different?
Their environmental psychology?
Or, do you think humanity will...
The basic design is
still gonna be the same
because we're still humans?
- Well, you're tapping in
to a great area of concern of mine
because, yes, of course,
we look at everybody
walking along on the
street and I often think,
well, what if martians landed on earth
and then, they said why are people looking
at these square little boxes?
They walk along the street,
it would be really confusing to them,
but my concern isn't how
much buildings will look,
given this new technology.
My concern is how people
will be in the world,
given this new technology.
For example, when I, in the book,
explored my own
environmental autobiography,
my own personal story, I
went back to my childhood
experience of place and thought about
what were the most meaningful,
riveting places for me
and they were places in the woods.
They were natural environments.
And, when I do my exercises,
I'd say most people...
Definitely majority of people go back
to some natural place
and, with people and
children and young people
using all these devices,
they are disconnected
from the natural world
and it's a very concerning thing
because that's kind of like
ripping out a whole part of us.
Part of what I say is my mission
is that we need to
preserve natural places.
I was just scouting out places in Florida,
away from the maddening
crowd where I could
perhaps, get a retreat space
for my grandchildren to be
where they could be exploring the woods
and not the malls, where all
the other kids are gathering
with their devices.
- Right.
Getting challenging to find that.
- [Toby] I think it's as much about
preserving natural resources
and exposing people
to other environments besides the built
and digital world.
That being said, it goes
back to your question
about CAD and other programs.
Yeah, you look at the work of Frank Gehry
and without those programs,
he probably couldn't
have engineered some of
those great buildings
or look at the new World
Trade Center transit hub
and, again, without
those technology tools,
those buildings couldn't be created.
But, when I look at
the overall feeling of,
let's say, Calatrava's new transit center,
it's so human, it's so inspirational.
It's more than the digital capabilities.
It's more getting people to understand
or to think more sensitively
about what human places are
and how people react to them.
- [Micene] Great, thank you.
I love the takeaway idea that
there is "meaning in place".
I think it's critically important.
Thank you for taking us
on a much deeper dive
in the topic of design psychology.
Now, for those interested in going deeper
and learning more about design psychology
and the work you do, or maybe
even connecting with you,
what's the best way for
our listeners to do that?
- [Toby] A great beginning
is to read my book,
Some Place Like Home,
Using Design Psychology
to Create Ideal Places.
Then, I also write a
blog for Psychology Today
called "Design on My Mind",
which particularly looks
at the different things
that I'm moving into now,
from healing environments
to, as I mentioned, women by design.
Then, of course, you all at Design Arts
help lead people through the book
in the CEU that you're giving.
I also give webinars a few times a year
or I work with people
from all over the world
through distance learning,
taking them through my exercises
and talking about how to use them.
And then, for those who
are really interested,
I have a design psychology
certification program,
which is a year long program,
again, through distance learning,
where I work with people one to one,
teaching them, in-depth,
how to use the toolbox
that they find at the end
of Some Place Like Home.
And, of course, there's my website,
DesignPsychology.net, where
they can read all about it.
- [Micene] Thank you for
sharing that information.
As you mentioned, we do have your book
approved as the distance learning program
by both the American
Institute of Architects
and the Interior Design
Continuing Education Council.
If you're interested in learning more
and earning CEU credits at the same time,
definitely check that out on our website
at DesignArts.org.
Dr. Israel, thank you so very much
for taking the time and
helping us understand
a bit more about design psychology
and how to "design from
within", as you've put it.
I definitely appreciate the
time you spent with us today.
And, to those listening,
thank you for being with us.
Please, don't hesitate to
reach out with any questions
you might have or any comments.
We'd love to hear from you.
- Thank you.
It's been great talking with you.
- Thank you.
- Thank you, Dr. Israel.
