We think we're this person, we've created
this person, our parents have created this
person, our family members, our girlfriends,
our boyfriends. We have this whole person
that's actually not really who we are.
Right, an alter ego perhaps.
The alter ego, yeah.
And, you know, sometimes we get so caught
up in the repetition of that alter ego that
we forget that it's an alter ego. Sometimes
that becomes us and we fall into the trap
of allowing ourselves to be singular in something
that doesn't actually reflect our soul's real
content.
“Nothing You Do Matters Unless What You
Do Matters”
I’m Amadon DellErba and this is “Get Real
or Die Trying”
Hey tribe, Amadon DellErba here. Welcome to
episode 16 of my podcast. Today, I had the
pleasure of sitting down with Fitzgerald Pucci.
He has the Deconstruct podcast, which I stumbled
across about a week ago, and I was first actually
attracted to some of the titles before I even
listened. I just liked what I was seeing,
you know, the titles and I thought this guy
was conscious. Did a little Googling, came
across some of his videos, listened to some
of his podcast, and I thought he'd be a great
guy to have on the show. I thought we would
vibe pretty well. So how are you doing today,
man?
Man, I'm honored first and foremost, by just…
that's reaching deep. I'm feeling great today.
Like I said a little beforehand, I've been
in a period of some deep constructive work
with a couple of the folks I really trust.
So I'm coming in here with a pretty big load
today. I'm real excited for what we've got
to talk about.
Cool. Cool, man. Well, thanks for coming on.
I really appreciate it. For our audience this
is the first time we've ever met right here,
virtually screen through screen here, so we're
just having a candid conversation. Two brothers
in pursuit here and it looks like we actually
started our podcast around the same time.
Why don't you tell the audience a little bit
about how you would describe yourself and
then, uh, I had some questions for you based
upon some of the podcasts I listened to and
just some things I thought we could jive on.
Absolutely. Well, first and foremost, I consider
myself an emotional literacy educator. I run
the Deconstruct podcast and a lot of that
is focusing on addressing some of the overall
societal myths that get impressed upon us
from just the different rights of passage
that we absorb. There are a lot of things
that teach us that we don't really understand
they're teaching us.
So every week we take one of these larger
societal teachings, we give some historical
context, we break it down, we offer some new
perspectives in the hopes of going through
this journey of getting more free together
piece by piece.
I do a lot of organizing in the central Massachusetts
area. We've been hosting a lot of protests
in towns that have not seen a protest in a
very long time, trying to organize and mobilize
some of the big worldly changes taking place.
A lot of the work that we're doing is saying
these small communities in the middle of Massachusetts
have not been paying much attention to the
grief and the pain going across the United
States. And we asked, well, why are we out
of the equation? So, we've been organizing
five or six different towns in the area, coaching
protest leads, creating educational weekly
identity calls, and hosting the podcast in
the greater collective hope that we can start
to transform the societal and cultural fabric
of the central Massachusetts area. It's been
a wild ride so far.
Good for you, man. It sounds like you're doing
a lot of great work and you're connected to
your local community and trying to organize
and inspire and ignite some change. That's
really good, man.
Thank you so much.
I was also, you know, I was attracted to the
name of your podcast Deconstruct because something
I… a similar concept, I think, that I say
a lot in my podcasts is that we need to unlearn.
You know, it's kind of like deconstructing,
but we have to unlearn because we learned
so many wrong things growing up in today's
society in this culture. And we have to kind
of unlearn these things. We get to a point
in our adult life, at some point, where we
start realizing the things we learned are
actually really not benefiting our souls and
are not benefiting our growth, our intellectual,
spiritual, emotional growth. They're not benefiting
us in our human connection to other people.
And we learn a lot of separations, you know,
like you're talking about in the community
and what's going on in this country right
now, there's so much separation. And a lot
of that is learned behavior passed down from
their fathers or grandfathers, you know, whatever
it may be.
And so coming into a sense of... one thing
you mentioned in one of your podcasts, or
maybe it was your speech, you had a great
speech called “A Comfortable Evil” that
I saw online. I took a few little, took a
few little notes. I really appreciated a lot
of what you had to say there. Another thing
that stood out to me was… you mentioned,
accountability. That's something that I talk
about almost every podcast, especially as
men in this culture today, we really need
to start having accountability for our actions
and taking accountability. And you talked
about, I think it was more in relation to
the Black Lives Matter and the learned behavior
of racism and really starting to take accountability
and changing it. And so I really appreciated
that because again, to me, accountability
is a high spiritual virtue that isn't, there's
not a lot of emphasis on it in the world.
Like we don't go around saying, “Hey, I
want to be accountable!”, you know...
Right.
But it really should be, it really should
be one of those top things because when you're
accountable and you pursue that accountability
and you take responsibility to change, and
to change yourself... you can really see progress
in your own life and the lives of others around
you. And it takes courage, it takes commitment,
to be accountable… and talk a little bit
about how you see what does it mean? I think
you, you talked about you're in a very small
town, you're in a rural area...
Right.
You said there hasn’t been a lot of protests
there, probably a lot of complacency, stagnation.
What can the average person in that town,
what does it mean for them to take accountability
in their life?
Right. Well, a lot of the ways of a small
town like myself have found comfort in very
familiar rhythms; very familiar expectations
of what everyday looks like. And at this point,
you know, people have been doing the same
thing for so many times, they may be losing
track of the things that are slightly uncomfortable
in their day to day basis.
They may be losing track of the things that
originally didn't make sense. But through
the act of repetition and through the act
of repeated exposure just become normalized.
So I think one of the most essential aspects
of bringing a small town community to the
point of being primed and ready for a discussion
about accountability is finding out what toxic
aspects of culture have been normalized because
every person has this like lining over their
skin with the habits, the routines, the thoughts,
the way they interact. And as they practice
that, this film kind of starts building thicker
and thicker and as someone in a small town,
practices small town ideologies. We are 98%
white so racialized conversation never takes
place from the advocacy side of those that
aren't white. And those layers keep building
up as one continues normalizing themselves
to their worlds. That layer needs to find
a way to be broken through. It needs to find
a way to gently be removed from the individual.
One of the things that I talk about a lot
is the way that slavery in the United States,
when it was first introduced, was a deeply
cruel and abnormal practice. And it was only
through the encouragement and the repetition
of actions of cruelty alongside the justification
of these acts. The first thing that happens
- and justification is so important here - when
someone brings up an idea that challenges
those normal everyday interactions, one of
the first things to come out for a small town
community are the justifications, the defenses,
the “I'm not racist. I have all these friends
that are black, that are brown, that are not
white. I don't have a racist bone in my body.”
A very wise man, by the name of Dr. Ibram
X. Kendi said this quote, that's been sticking
in my mind all the way through for the past
month, “The heartbeat of racism…” - when
we’re looking at it from the Black Lives
Matter perspective of taking accountability
- “The heartbeat of racism is in the denial
of itself.”
So one of the first things that we need to
normalize in one of these communities is the
suspension of the excuses, of the reactions,
of the defenses, the justifications. Being
able to come to a point where all of the little
things in us that want to fight and kick and
scream when they are confronted...to be able
to deescalate those things within ourselves,
to a point of, “you know, maybe I don't
have everything right.”
That is really, I believe the first step to
taking accountability, but it can be such
a strenuous, energy-consuming process. Because
I've really seen that when someone who has
normalized themselves, when they're exposed
to that, the entire arsenal of defenses generally
needs to come out. Like, opening the Pandora's
box and all of these bugs, and snakes, things
with scales and fangs and ugliness, kind of
need to leave the box. And it's only when
that box is depleted can you really have those
conversations that bring the idea of “Maybe
there are things that I can find strength
in taking accountability for.”
Yeah, no you bring up a lot of great points
there. And it kind of reminds me of my own
philosophy of being willing to look in the
mirror and see your ugly side, see your weaknesses,
you see the things that we don't want to see,
you know, and look at that Pandora's box of
the scales and the snarling aspects of our
personalities, uh, that are not really conducive
to optimum human performance, you know, and
being, basically being a loving soul and being,
and being a human that connects.You talked
about this in your podcast too, which I really
liked, the concept of multiplicity. And you
know, I talk about duality and the duality
of man, a man and woman, you know, men, creatures,
human beings is that to me, I'm fascinated
with kind of the battle between our human
nature and our spiritual nature. You know,
because we are spiritual beings and we, but
we're in this constant battle.
And the more that we try and spiritize our
hearts and our minds, the more we try and
elevate our spiritual consciousness, we're
at war with our lower self and our higher
self; our human nature and our spiritual nature
and coming in, you know, and all of us, every
human being is a dichotomy in some sense,
I was just telling my wife, I'm a fool and
I'm a Sage...you know, I’m a dichotomy.
Yeah, exactly.
And I’m trying, I'm trying to be more of
the Sage and less the fool. But if I were
to say that I'm a Sage and not accept that
I can be a fool as well. Then I'm, you know,
I'm just basically full of sh*t, you know...
Right, right!
And so just having the awareness to grow.
Yeah, that's a perfect point that you bring
up there. And I really think that being able
to end the war that exists between those two
dualities comes in finding the balance where
the child and the Sage can meet and begin
to fulfill each other's needs.
Yeah. Thus the duality of meeting… how to
grow up, take responsibility, be accountable
and be mature. Be a mature adult, but also
have that childlike nature. And what is the
childlike nature? To me, it's about purity.
You see children are more, innately more pure
and they have more virtues than adults because
they've had less time to be corrupted.
Exactly. Exactly. That’s such a good way
to put it.
And so a childlike nature is really just a
more pure nature. They're more loving. They
don't have preconceived judgments of people
when they meet them, you know. They don't…
they just don't see these things because they
haven't learned all of these and absorbed
them like you were talking about earlier.
They don't have these layers of wrong learning.
And so that childlike nature that we need
to pursue to me is really purity. And then
you get to the crossroads of, “Wow, how
do I become more pure?” That's where the
work comes in. You have to be able to like,
sit down and say… that's what we were talking
about… look in the mirror and say, “Dang
man, like I'm ugly. This part of me is ugly.
This ego in me is ugly. Or this competition
in me is ugly” or whatever it is... Having
the courage and the accountability to look
in the mirror - or look in the mirror… sometimes
the mirror is a friend, is a lover, is a loved
one, is your mentor, is your spiritual elder,
is your teacher who says, “You know what,
this isn't working” and you should want
that in your life.
And I've talked about that in a lot of my
podcasts… really seeking out the Sage, if
you will, the teachers, the spiritual elders
in one's life to have that guidance, to have
that correction, which was what my last podcast
was about, Carefrontation Vs. Correction.
You know, and really wanting that, so you
can better yourself, change yourself, improve
yourself.
And I think a lot of the concepts you touched
on in some of your podcasts, you seem to really
be exploring human nature and the pursuit
to kind of deconstructing the wrong things
we've learned, but also embracing and coming
into the new paradigm and the correct ways
of how we conduct ourselves and the conversation
you're having with yourself and with others
is a conversation that millions of people
need to be having...
Yeah, right.
You mentioned something, let me just look
at my notes here real quick...in your speech
that was a, it was a concept that I really
liked because it reminded me of a concept
that I talk about here. Well, I think you
were talking about society's pressure towards
singularity…
Yes.
...and what I thought about is a concept in
a book called The URANTIA Book that I read.
And The URANTIA Book is a, it's a big subject,
I’ll have to touch on that, but it's a revelation,
an epochal revelation that came to this planet
through an anonymous, sleeping prophet. And
anyways, there's a concept called unity without
uniformity.
Yes. Yes.
And that's what we need to have. We can still
have unity without uniformity. We don't all
have to, you know, be the uniform patterns,
you know, and look the same and act the same
and really trying to get to that consciousness
of unity without uniformity. You also said
something, you said the word, you probably
don't remember, maybe you do remember, radical
something… I don't think I took the note
cause I….
Radical trust in the human ability to grow.
Radical trust.
Yes, I really liked that because… well one,
we do... We lose faith in humanity. We lose
faith in each other… And the radical trust
in human nature to grow, reminded me of a
concept of my father’s, that he talks about
called, ‘Radical Unity.’
And I used to talk about it and people would
ask me, “Why is it radical? What's what's
radical about unity?” I'm like, “Well,
it's a radical because we're so far from it!
The norm is to be divided. So unity itself
is radical.”
We've made such a tremendous departure from
the original teachings, which this country
was founded upon. Exactly as you say, the
immigration and the multiplicity of perspectives
that have shaped American culture. We’re
currently in this point where there is a cultural
war that's being held that it's trying to
commit a concept that I call cultural genocide.
It's trying to homogenize itself and it's
trying to put… Once again white supremacy
is rearing its ugly head and it's contesting,
it's seeking to fight and to wound the other
cultural aspects that are existing, that have
made this country so powerful and diverse
in its thoughts. And a lot of the people in
my hometown they see these different opinions,
they see these different perspectives of black
folks, brown folks, queer folks, disabled
folks; of indigenous people that are living
around our areas.
And they see them as threats. They see the
unfamiliar as threats because one of the biggest
conditions, one of the most toxic aspects
to the white supremacist culture that is sort
of been cultivated is the indulgence of this
vivid sense of paranoia in what we are unfamiliar
with. When really, as you said earlier, some
of the most powerful teachers that we can
come across or those that we interact with
and every additional aspect, every new perspective
that comes into this conversation, has the
potential to really teach us. I have some
beautiful mentors, incredibly gentle, kind-hearted
men that have taken me and shaped and gone
through this powerful journey.
And I also recognize that some of my greatest
teachers have been some of my fiercest opponents
in the course of my life. There have been
calls that have been directed at me to face
the ugliness of my own past. There have been
calls for accountability that were incredibly
painful at first. And it's only with a little
bit of time, only with a little bit of that
process where I was able to convert the fear
that I had of being called-out, into a gratitude,
because some of the deepest lessons that have
changed and helped me heal myself, have come
from people that have originally meant for
my harm. And I think that was one of the hardest
lessons that I ever had. It plugs in here,
where, if we are able to see the views which
challenge our existence and feel uncomfortable
to what is normal as opportunities to grow.
It changes the entire perspective of how scary
the world can be. And it heals at its very
core, it’s root, that paranoia clutching
so many and for the people in my community.
Yeah, that's beautiful. I love the way your
mind sees that and approaches healing. I think…
you know, it sounds like for you that you
had something in your life where you realized
you had to take accountability for your actions.
Yes I did.
And we all have that at varying degrees. Everyone,
actually, has something in their life they
need to take accountability for. Whether they've
taken accountability or not is another thing.
But what I like about what you're saying is
that you got to that point, it was made clear
to you by your mentors, your teachers, your
elders (another word I like to use)
I love that word.
And you accepted it and you embraced it. And
that happens to me every day. I'm having to
take accountability for my actions and it’s
being pointed out to me.
I just - It's beautiful... but it's also kind
of sad that so few people experience what
you and I experience and in this, and feel
that way or have come to that place, where
we feel like it's, um, we feel blessed, you
know.
Yeah. And it is a blessing,
And it is a blessing and a lot of people avoid
it. And a lot of people that don't seek it
out and a lot of people don't want to take
accountability. And so I think all we can
do is just talk about it, share, and I think
share about how it's blessed us. I think when
people hear personal testimony and they understand
like, wow, this person is saying this helped
them grow, and it was beautiful for their
soul, and it was a blessing to them. It might
shift their thinking a little bit.
It can really give people courage. It can
give people the courage to say, this person
can do this. Maybe I can too.
You know, I saw a movie while we’re talking
a little bit about, you know, black lives
matter, and racism, and that white supremacy,
and that wrong thinking. I saw a great movie
the other night called, ‘Burden’ with
Forest Whitaker. It's based on a true story
of a KKKlans-member who basically had a change
of heart because of the love and acceptance
of this black preacher, who was Forest Whitaker,
whose very own uncle was lynched and hanged
by the KKK. Um, and he still showed love and
took this KK member into his own home and,
and basically through love and acceptance,
transformed this guy to basically repent,
and change his way of thinking, living and
being, and I mean, it's power and it's a true
story. And at the end they show, they show
a clip of the, of the guy talking and it's
really quite powerful story. And I think if
that could, it just is an example of how these
people can change their thinking through love.
And even I was watching this thinking, “Man,
this preacher's got a lot of balls.” I mean,
he's really a courageous guy that had this
guy in his home and to show that type of love,
he could be filled with so much hatred, but
he was the real deal. He was walking the walk,
man. I mean, he's a preacher. He's the real
deal. He's not a facade. There's no bullsh*t
there, man. He was doing what Jesus would
have done… the real Jesus, not our little
ideas of Jesus. He was doing...
Not our, not our, societaly indoctrinated
take of Jesus.
Exactly, he was doing the real-deal Jesus,
you know. Taking this man into his home and
showing him unconditional love” and therefore
it transformed him, which I thought was quite
a wonderful story.
That's really hitting deep. I talk about radical
trust and I think, “what does that look
like?” And what you just told me to take
in someone responsible for the death of a
family member, into your own house, and trust
in that they can be healed. That's about as
radical as radical gets. Yeah. And that's
the stuff that's really going to change the
world, I think.
Yeah. And imagine, you know… after watching
that, I had the thought, imagine if all media
that was put out in all movies had this type
of beautiful, informative, inspiring spiritual
message? And it, you know, here we are, you
and I are in conversation about this movie
I saw, but imagine if millions of people were.
Instead, we're talking about, you know, the
fast and the furious, and we're talking about
the blockbuster, Transformers, and we're talking
about the Kardashians or whatever the hell
people are talking about.
And all the drama that people love to just
suck up.
Mindless banter. Mindless banter. The arts
and media should be presenting these true
stories and these inspiring acts of men and
women throughout time, and currently living,
who are doing great things. But we, it's a
way that the powers that be control the masses
by just pumping out meaningless banter.
Right. It's very profitable that banter
Yeah, absolutely.
And it feeds off of those layers that we develop.
I think a lot of consumers who have been indoctrinated
regularly to find their sense of gratification
from taking the wrapper, peeling it off, and
consuming whatever's inside. For a lot of
folks that is the closest thing to catharsis
that they come across. And I don't think they
realize that the more they depend on the cycle
of consumption, the more they are being consumed.
And it's deeply profitable to focus on the
dramatic aspects, to focus on the conflicts,
to focus on the things that distract us from
liberation.
That's interesting. That's a cool concept.
It's kind of the more that 
you consume, the more that your soul is being
consumed by them.
Yeah. Right. It's really making us compromise
our humanity; the more we participate in that
structure. And that's one of the biggest goals
of a large, corporate, soulless society - to
remove us from my sense of humanity and turn
us into dividends.
The lack of connection. Yeah. When you, when
you have a lack of connection with yourself,
with your fellow human next to you, it's easier
to control, but you're also, you're then more
capable of doing wrong.
Yeah. And going back to the idea of what made
slavery less horrifying to an American populace
way back in the day. They had to train themselves
to separate this one demographic of people
from the concept of humanity. Dehumanization
is such a part of the primer to enable what's
harming us; to justify that harm.
Yeah. You… let’s circle back a little
bit. You mentioned, you were talking about
children and childlike and you were starting
to tell me a story, I think, or you were going
somewhere and I might've diverted the conversation.
But you were talking about how we, uh, at
a young age are taught to do things or to
unlearn things. I feel like I might've cut
you off cause I liked where you were going
and then we got excited about something else.
But...
So, in my childhood state I feel like it was
one...that may have been one of the wisest
points of my upbringing to this point, all
the way until the age of 24, and everything
that I've been doing from I'd say 21, 22 onwards
has been trying to get back to that initial
period of being easily impressed with the
world around me. Having such a thin membrane
exist between my body and the world around
me… being so susceptible to the sun on my
skin, and the breeze through my hair, and
the sound of the birds, and all of the aspects
of beauty in my environment. I miss having
a skin so thin because it felt like I was
in a constant state of communion between myself
and the world around me.
Yeah. When you were talking, I was thinking
what you're describing is basically being
in the moment, being present. But as we grow
as adults with responsibilities, with the
corruption of our purity, basically, we’re
never happy and satisfied in the moment - the
breeze in our hair, the sun shining - we become
callous. Our skin becomes callous and that
thin membrane goes away and we lose the magic,
we lose the appreciation, and we lose the
gratitude for the beauty of the simplicity
of existence.
I love the word callous, that you use.
I was just having this conversation with someone
the other day about just observing my little
three-year-old and just how… the joy and
excitement that she can have and that most
children can have over such beautiful things
and that we harm ourselves by not allowing
ourselves to have that childlike excitement
and that, you know, there's something to it.
But really what it is is that children, for
me the spiritual lesson that I'm learning
from being a father myself, is that children
live in the moment so much better than adults;
they’re in the moment.
My father, Gabriel of Urantia, who is a spiritual
teacher and he's a writer, he talks about
the eternal moment and being the eternal moment
and that there is the duality of appreciating
the moment is actually linked to having a
distinct understanding and respect for eternity.
And so, you know, the moment - you can appreciate
and be in the moment when you have a sense
of eternity because you know where you're
going, you know that this moment is qualified
by eternity itself.
Yes. Yes. I love the idea of eternity validating
the constant stream of now. That's so, that's
it. I I, and you know, what causes our skin
to callus? I think that is a great place to
explore. Well, the first cut is the deepest.
When we are children, we have not set any
sort of internal process to protect ourselves
from some of the hard aspects of the world.
Some of the difficult, scary, troubling things.
So as I began to experience some of that pain,
I said, “I don't like that. I don't want
to have to deal with that. I want to find
ways to protect myself against that.” So
the joy and the wonder and, I really feel
one of the things that allowed me to be so
wise as a child was in my ability to be naive
in my trust. I was so able to give back because
I had never been hurt. And as I grew, I grew
these callouses. I grew these layers to protect
and insulate myself from the hurt.
Now that I've sort of gone through the mouth
of some very deep hurts in my own experience,
I've realized that maybe this pain isn’t
something that I need to be as afraid of as
I previously was.
I was telling someone the other day that saying
“hurt people hurt people.” You know, hurt
people, hurt other people because they're
hurt...
That's a novel in four words...
Yeah, really, I mean, a huge discussion there
and seeking that personal healing, it kind
of circles all the way back to the beginning
of our conversation about taking accountability,
changing ourselves, and healing ourselves
so that we can be “loving-people, who love
people” instead of “hurt people who hurt
people.” You know, “loving-people, who
love people.” And getting to that point
and to that consciousness and that state of
being, it actually isn't easy. It takes a
lot of exploration. It takes a lot of emotional,
spiritual, psychological healing and analysis.
And going within and changing, deconstructing,
unlearning, um, tearing down like, dying to
thyself.
You know, a lot of us have these - you know
one of my podcasts was about, you know, having
a facade - we have these facades, we, we think
we're this person, we've created this person,
our parents have created this person, our
family members, our girlfriends, our boyfriends.
We have this whole person that's actually
not really who we are.
Right, an alter ego perhaps.
The alter ego, yeah.
And, you know, sometimes we get so caught
up in the repetition of that alter ego that
we forget that it's an alter ego. Sometimes
that becomes us and we fall into the trap
of allowing ourselves to be singular in something
that doesn't actually reflect our soul's real
content.
Yeah, I was listening to - you know, Mike
Tyson has a podcast that, the heavyweight
boxer - you know, he's going through his own
kind of spiritual discovery. And, you know
- talk about the exact example of an alter
ego - he was the heavyweight champion of the
world, this whole big, you know, alter ego.
And he said on his podcast, he said, “You
know what? I've been living in my alter ego
for my whole life. I was the heavyweight champion
of the world. I was this mean guy, I was this
vicious boxer, I was this killer. I was this…”
This was all... and he goes, “That's not
even who I am. I'm just now discovering who
I am. I'm Mike Tyson.” He's like, “I'm
a nice, funny guy.” He's like, “I don't
even know who that old Mike Tyson is. I don't
even know him anymore. That was all just my
alter ego.”
So it's really cool to see like other people,
and even him and in that exaggerated form,
because we all talk about having an alter
ego, but imagine actually having it, living
it, being in it, personifying it and it, really,
in your life - you're the heavyweight champion,
you're making millions, anywhere you go people
are kissing your ring, basically. You know…
So that was like he is the exact example of
that. And here he is, years later, like deconstructed.
Here he is years later, like, “Whoa, I don't
even know who that guy was. This is, I'm finally
discovering who I am!” ...you know?
I just found another circumstance like that,
that really hit base so deep. Do you know
the rapper, DMX?
Oh yeah. Definitely.
Yeah. Yes. Super hard core. Super tough. Just
a straight up original gangster, bad ass.
He drops it hard.
And I found out, I found out he has a garden
of orchids that he tends to...
There you go.
...on a regular basis. And I, I'm seeing DMX
- one of the hardest dudes in the industry
- watering his orchids and
There you go...I think he might read the book,
The URANTIA Book, I was mentioning, too.
Yeah, and it brings me so much joy, especially
in the realm of the persona of masculinity,
especially from the hard person, from the
“conqueror,” to be able to see people
express a genuine self of gentleness that
acknowledges the hard itself and transcends
that.
That's so cool, yeah.
And, you know, one of the really beautiful
things that I've found about being soft; being
sensitive. When you're around people that
don't have pure intentions, you can smell
it from a mile away.
Oh yeah.
And then when one learns how to practice strong
boundaries, the boundaries given to us by
the Sage who has the experience. When we can
inhabit the space of gentleness and sensitivity
and wonder to the world around us, we’re
fueled by this magical force that just makes
living easier.
And when we receive the wisdom of the Sage,
who has had the experiences, who has the clarity
of vision that cuts through the artificial
of the worlds, that cuts through other people's
personas, that can see what's really deep
down there.
I think being able to find those, the best
of both of those... the wonder whose naivety
is checked and the wisdom whose callousness
is checked. Being able to inhabit both of
those spaces is really like, it's like DMX
in an orchid garden. It's really like Mike
Tyson slipping into the perspective of humor
and gentleness because we really can be complex.
We can outstep the parameters of this really
narrow definition of masculinity that we're,
that a lot of us have been forced to perform.
That's one persona that I think is unilaterally
imposed on men.
Yeah, it's really cool. You bring up masculinity.
That's something I explore pretty much every
podcast in some way, it comes up just the
concept of masculinity and the need to redefine
it, the need to re-personify what it means
to be a masculine male, and really the need
to take control and take back the definition.
I think, you know, there's such a lack of
balance. I think of balance and men today,
they're either, there's just imbalance, you
know? You can be too macho and too strong
and too chauvinistic and too this, or you
can be kind of weak and you lose the manly
qualities of decisiveness and being a protector
and being absolute and being a guide and being
a man.
And so that's like the spectrum is just going
away. It's like, you're either really off
and, or, and, or you're just too weak, you
know? And I don't say weak as in like, a bad
thing… but there are archetypes of what
a man should be that work for the progression
of society and humanity, and a good man really
has to have strength so that he can pursue
virtues of honor and integrity and honesty.
These things don't just come to you. You have
to pursue them. You have to work towards them
and it takes commitment. It takes courage
to actually be a good man. You don't just
wake up one day and you're a great man. And
then of course there’s the unlearning of
the toxic masculinity.
That we're all a product of it doesn't matter
because if you grew up in America and you
didn't even have a father, you're still a
product of toxic masculinity because you see
it everywhere. You observe it everywhere.
You take it in as a child, you're a sponge.
You see it in your coach at school, you see
it in your principal.
You see it on the President on TV, you see
it on the main character in the movies you're
watching. You see it in the video games are
playing. You see in the magazines, you're
reading, it's everywhere. You're inundated
with this toxic image.
And so it's time as men that we take accountability
and that we personify what it means to be
a godly man, to be a responsible man. And
when I say godly, I'm not talking about the
straight-laced Christian, you know, “I'm
a godly guy,” you know what I mean?
Right. “I'm a God fearing man.” Yeah.
We’re created beings by a loving cosmic
Creator that is much bigger than anybody knows.
It doesn't fit any book. It doesn't fit in
any ism or schism, you know.
Ooh. That's such a nice phrase. That's great.
And, you know, I really think of that as just
existing in the perpetual reverence of that
moment. When I'm living and being in that
perpetual state of sensitivity to what the
world is saying, listening to what my intuition
is saying, listening to what the world is
saying, that's one of the times where I feel
the closest to that which created me.
That's good that you say being a listener,
a good listener, because I think that's one
of the biggest problems with men today is
we're not good listeners. We don't listen
to the women in our lives, whether it be our
significant other, whether it be our sister,
our mother, our, our friend, we're not good
listeners and we need to start listening.
And I think, you know, right now with the
whole Me Too movement, which is proper and
needs to take place,
Yeah. It's something that we ought to listen
to.
It’s something we need to listen to. Yeah,
there's going to be some things taken advantage
of there's going to be some exaggerated situations.
There might be some people, whatever, taking
advantage of the Me Too movement in some ways.
But the fact is, that it's time for men to
take accountability for their actions. That
the way we live, the way that we treat women,
the way that we view things needs to change.
We need to be responsible and that it's wrong.
And we were not being told, “Hey, that's
wrong. Don't do that. Stop that.” We haven't
been told that enough as men for the last
three, four, five, six, seven hundred years
on this planet. A thousand years? Two thousand
years? We can keep going back.
Yeah, we really can.
Patriarchy and the wrong abuse of male power
on this planet goes back a long time man.
There’s a deep, deep, deep, deep generational
curse of our sex
Yeah, I think it's exciting that we live in
an age now where we can share and get out
to the world. Like, “Hey guys, we can do
this different.” We can be better men. We
can be more vulnerable. We can be more honest.
We can be more gentle. You can be strong and
gentle at the same time. In fact, someone
who truly is strong is actually gentle at
the same time, because you have to have both.
Strength without gentleness is not strength
it's just… it's meaningless because you
can't actually activate it in, in divine harmony.
Right. It becomes brutality, I think.
Exactly, strength without gentleness is brutality.
It's domination, it's oppression and it's
force, you know, but strength with gentleness
is energy.
Yes. Yes.
Different than force. It’s an energy.
Yes. Something really hit me so deeply when
you were talking earlier about that, that
paradigm that exists of the two extremes,
of the man obsessed with the toxicity of strength
and the man that is utterly devoid of the
health aspects of masculinity. It reminds
me of a time in my journey when I first came
to confrontation with the ugliness of some
of the things that I had learned. In the beginning
part of my own deconstruction, I had a point
where I wholeheartedly, 100%, and entirely
rejected everything masculine because I had
such an explosive reaction to seeing the harm
that was being inflicted to other people from
some of these unhealthy aspects. I wasn't
able to differentiate and I threw the baby
out with the bath water. There was a point
for a long part of my time where I was this
really... I had so much energy. I had a lot
of charisma. I was really intense and I loved
being intense. I had so many of the aspects
of what a strong man had; gusto, passion,
ferver… And I became so caught up in timidity,
and guilt, and fragility, and fear, and undeservedness,
and the thought that I should be the last
person talking to you. I was pleased with
myself and every waking moment instead of
living in communion. And that way that I rejected
the healthy aspects, the dependability, the
gentleness, the communications / specificity,
the boundaries, the ability to listen. Even
when I was quiet, I wasn't able to listen
to other people cause I was so obsessed with,
am I being quiet enough? Am I being quiet
enough? And it was such an unhealthy way for
me to be small. And as I let go of that, which
didn't serve me, I had to build myself up
again after that point. Now, after years of
work, I finally feel in a place where I have
found my rooted presence again, and that reunion
was so beautiful. But what you said really
stirred that experience in me of what happened
when I lost everything about masculinity.
Wow. Well, thank you for sharing that, because
that is actually a poignant, powerful, and
beautiful self-analysis of your process. And
I think it's almost a micro… your micro
process is kind of like, to me, an example
of the macro reality of what's happened with
men, thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions
of men on the macro level of not trusting
themselves anymore; going to the wrong end
of the spectrum into that weakness, into that
in decisiveness into that lack of passion,
that lack of fervor and wanting to take responsibility,
and it they've gone to the other end of the
spectrum. And so now “it's all good, man.
Everything goes.” They don't want to say,
“No, don't do that.”
Right.
They don’t want to say, “Hey, that's wrong.”
“Hey bro, it's all good.” And that's too
much relativity, because it's not all good.
There's a lot of things that aren't good.
And as a man, you gotta be able to take charge
and say what's not all good. And so I think
what you just shared there was a really powerful
little testimony that I think would help a
lot of men grow so I appreciate you sharing
that because, and you know what? We're going
to have those moments all throughout our ascension
in this life. We're going to keep growing.
It's not like you've arrived and you’re
perfect now. You're going to have another
process where you've come through just as
I am, and we're going to keep deconstructing,
keep learning, and keep getting more balanced.
But the process you got to is, I'm actually
being too weak. I've lost trust in myself
and I'm appeasing this guilt. Basically this…
and it's almost this macro guilt of all men.
Collective, and it's affecting my own personal
psyche and I'm becoming weak and in a lot
of ways. You know, that process you had is
powerful. It needs to happen for millions
of men, and it'll continue to happen in different
ways in our lives as we grow as men, as we
heal. It's constantly refining, you know?
My wife, God bless her, she's always, she's
always telling me, you know, don't be so dramatic
about your flaws. It's really just... think
of it is that you need to refine more. You're
refining, it's just refining. It's like...
It is.
I can really beat up on myself, I think my
whole, you know, I'm just so terrible and
this and that, I'm completely flawed. And
it's like, you know what? It's just, you just
need a little sandpaper in some areas to smooth
out, you know, and give ourselves some grace,
you know, but also recognize that we need
the sandpaper. Having that balance, there's
a duality again, you know, of growing.
And you can't have other people can't really
do it for us either. It's like, we have to
take the sandpaper and do it. And they can
point out and say, “There's a rough patch,
you may want to smooth it out a little bit,”
on your soul, on your personality. “There's
a rough patch. Go ahead and give it a little
sand.” And we can either respond with humility
and gratitude for the... or we can respond
with, you know, arrogance, pride
With tension...
Yeah, and tension… and what are you? Who
are you to tell me that? And it's cool. It's
cool that we're having this conversation and
I wish that millions of men were. You know,
I wish it was happening on the global level.
I wish that men who had hundreds of thousands
and millions of followers on their platforms
were saying this, instead of the BS, they're
saying, you know. Talk about the wrong use
of power and the misuse of power and just
delivering meaningless banter. Again, instead
of delivering and taking responsibility with
the audience they have and saying something
of meaning and saying, “Hey, look, guys,
let's do this better. Let's be good men.”
They're saying… they're actually promoting
the opposite. Power. This is what it means.
Gotta do this. Take women. Basically misogyny,
you know. It’s just really sad.
Yeah, you can never apologize. You never admit
you're wrong. You keep plowing through you.
You kill your opposition. And I think of how
many incredibly prominent, powerful men there
are and how many opportunities they have to
explore the harm they've caused. That's one
of the things about the Me Too movement that
I really think... It is a judgment of powerful
men. It is a lot of our collective reckoning.
But in it, there is an opportunity to respond
to this harm with grace; to take accountability.
What happens if all of these prominent men
who have allegations stacked, binders full,
if they were to take tremendous courage in
beginning to look at that sincerely?
Yeah.
And we have, we have this feeling of that's
going to kill me if I do this. It's going
to destroy me. It's going to rip me apart.
It's going to consume. Doubt consumes the
individual. Guilt consumes the individual.
And we build up all of these layers to insulate
ourselves from those hard feelings when really
they are the keys to our prison cells. We
are our own wardens and the more we spend
time running from this, avoiding this, the
longer we perpetuate the collective sin of
our gender and the deeper that encompassing
guilt that neuters people, exists in.
So, I think one of the ways that I have found
peace in navigating what accountability looks
like. It is by embracing aspects of the divine
feminine within myself, because I have found
my divine masculine. I have found my present
masculine tendencies of being decisive, of
having genuine confidence, of communicating
boldly and clearly and truthfully. And how
can that be nourished? How can that be viewed
with gentleness? How can I sustain myself
for work like that. And in order for men to
take accountability for the collective weight
of our historical sins, I really think that
we need to invite the divine feminine to the
decision making table that exists within us;
to embrace the multiplicity of the expression
of our souls.
Yeah, very cool. It's kind of similar to a
concept that, you know, that I study about
it, it's called complementary polarities and
also just the understanding of, of a man and
a woman creating the third mind; coming together,
and that leadership really should be both.
It should be a man and a woman.
Because then both aspects of the circuitry,
the father circuitry and the mother circuitry
are introduced. And so having more balance,
you know, there shouldn't just be a president
of the country, there should be two; a man
and a woman. And they should be complementary
polarities. Whether they're in a relationship
or not, they're probably not. They're just
complements and they're in a functioning relationship
in the sense of complementing each other to
make the right decisions for their constituents,
for the people around them. If they're leaders,
you know?
That's a deep wisdom.
I'm blessed to have been raised in a spiritual,
intentional community. And in this community,
it was founded by my parents actually, and
my parents (obviously a man and a woman) so…
But the leadership, the leadership was, it
was my mother and my father. And so it had
that. And so I saw, and can witness firsthand
and in a testimony, to the balance that comes
from two leaders of the opposite sex, working
together. And like you were saying, it's the
blending of the divine masculine and the divine
feminine. And it's so important, you know?
Gabriel of Urantia is my father and Niánn
Emerson Chases is my mother and they're both
spiritual teachers and they've, they've built
something pretty amazing here. One of the
largest communities in the world with a hundred
people from all over the world, living on
220 acres in harmony with each other. And
it's a big subject and I think we'll talk
on your next podcast kind of about what I'm
doing and stuff, but...
Yeah. I would love that.
It really taps into a lot of the things that
we've talked about today, really flow nicely
into the ways that we live our life here in
a community setting with unity without uniformity,
with radical trust, with radical unity, with
balanced men and women, with respecting each
other. All of these subjects we've actually
taken here and created a culture where we're
trying to personify them. We’ve created
a culture where they're existing; where that
love can actually take place, that radical
love can exist because there's a consciousness
around it that supports it, nourishes it and
helps it grow.
Yeah.
Well I appreciate your sharing with me man.
Of course, your podcasts are great, so I really
encourage everyone of my listeners to check
out our brother Fitzgerald's podcast, Deconstruct,
and that we've had a great conversation today,
we’ve covered a lot of territory.
We really, really have. It's been incredible.
Thank you for coming on, man. You've got a
lot of great insight and right on the same
vibe as me and, you know my show is called,
Get Real or Die Trying cause it's about just
getting real, and that process of getting
real, deconstructing, unlearning, healing,
like you said, going back into the past, uncovering
the wounds, taking accountability, and becoming
a better human being. You know, that's what
we're all trying to do here. So, well not
all of us, but we should be... that's what
I'm trying to do and I'm trying to encourage
others and we're all in it together, man.
One big family. So thanks for coming on.
Your words have inspired me to dig deeper
into that capability we have. Thank you so
much for bringing me on for this today. It’s
been a pleasure and an honor.
Absolutely. Peace out man.
Much love.
Check out my website at http://getrealordietrying.com
Leave me a voicemail on Anchor at Anchor.fm/getrealordietrying
Rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or any
of the platforms you listen on.
Be sure to follow me on social media and share
this podcast with your friends.
Word of mouth is a great way to share the
vibe.
"Get Real or Die Trying with Amadon DellErba"
is a production of Global Change Media.
And remember: "Pain is Temporary. Victory
is Eternal."
So, just so I pronounce your name right, how
do you pronounce it?
Fitzgerald Pucci.
Pucci, alright. So you're Irish, Italian?
Yeah. I say all the time, I am your classic
European mut!
I'm actually, I'm actually Scottish-Italian.
That's really cool.
So you can imagine the temper, you know, it's
not good.
[laughter]
Yeah. Phew! You got some high blood in your
veins, my man. Well, it's like, it's like
on one side you get like two very distinct
flavors of that temper. I see, I see really
energetic hand talking and screaming bagpipes!?!
How does that come together?
[laughter]
