We're going to start this week as always with
a nice wee review. Ah! Wee review. So this
one says funny, entertaining and bloody. Brilliant.
Thank you for that compliment of me personally.
This is specific. It does say this is specifically
a review of Luke. It's a five-star review.
It says long time listener, first time reviewer.
I listened to SCI guys in sporadic bursts,
busy media, editing life. And what I do, I
always liberate myself. I always berate myself
for not listening when episodes actually come
out because they're always fascinating and
informing to hear even Luke and Jamps, comedic
responses have their benefit, though. I'm
not sure how Corry has the patients. We are
good with those comedic responses. Aren't
we? Ah yes, my dad, my dad just started listening
today and he asked me if we rehearse it all.
And I was like, no, dad, We don't rehearse
the jokes. Are we that wooden? Bless him.
The episodes where I had no clue about the
topic made me feel smarter. And the app says
where I had some preliminary knowledge of
the topic. We're still good for filling in
the gaps. Definitely my favourite podcast
out there, podcasts, podcasts out there.
hello and welcome to the sci guys. It's a
show where we talk about the crazy, weird
and wonderful stories from the science world.
I'm Corry, and as always, I'm joined by my
cohost Jamp and Luke Cutforth this time, special
guest, Noah Finnce! This week, we're talking
about JK Rowling's mortal enemy. Is that trans
people? I thought you meant specifically me.
That's why you're a guest. Noah. That's why
he's here. As it's pride month, I thought
we'd do a couple episodes that have been quite
heavily requested this week. Trans brain's
next week, the gay gene. So shall we try the
gay gene? Yeah. Did we find it? Next week.
You'll find out next week. Not yet, we haven't
found it yet. Little tease, We're riding a
lot on them finding the gene, Corry has got
to find the gay gene between today and next
week. This is like, when you start writing
an essay about 10 minutes before it's due,
I've been spending the past 20 years trying
to find it, Knowing I've had to find it, but
this week I'll get that. Anyway. Shall we
start off with, shall we start off with what
gender identity is? Do you guys know what
gender identity is? We all have one. Terfs
dont. That describes a lot of things. TERFs
don't believe in gender identity.
The rule I can just hear the emails. they
just are. Yeah, they just are women because
they are, I can already tell this was a bad
idea for an episode topic. So gender identity,
this is from the NHS gender identity refers
to our sense of who we are and how we see
and describe ourselves. Most people identify
as male or female. These are sometimes called
binary identities, but some people feel their
gender identity is outside of this binary.
And some people feel it's different from their
biological sex. Gender dysphoria is an well,
gender dysphoria is a discomfort with, um,
your gender effectively. Um, it's not a mental
illness, but some people may develop mental
health problems because of gender dysphoria.
It was categorized as a mental illness for
a while, wasn't it? Yes. But then, so is being
gay, is it still, I guess, so as being a woman
speaking too much, so yes. Lots of things
have beenâ€¦
Watch your tone! Watch it! that's hysteria
by the way. Oh yeah! Histeria! From the hista
of the womb. From the womb. Yeah, exactly.
It's called hysterical. Yeah, because they
would say... Because it comes from the womb,
Something about hist, means womb in some other
language. Okay so, in some other language?
Latin maybe? Latin yes! What's funny about
that! It's a different language.
It just means womb panic.
They're panicking because they have a womb.
It does literally mean womb panic and it is
another language, it's the same route as
hysterectomy so it does, it does literally
mean womb panic.
Oh cool! When women were acting irrationally,
you could basically diagnose them with hysteria,
which basically meant crazy lady go to crazy,
crazy house. I feel some people still believe
that. Yeah. Like you're on your period. Like
our health secretary Matt hancock.
Well, that's why women aren't allowed to be
in power because they could just go crazy
at any minute because of that womb in there.
Unlike the men, definitely don't go crazy!
Luckily men have never started any wars. So
many sane men we have in power right now
Oh dear god.
So yeah, that's uh, that's what gender identity
is being trans in a, in a medical sense is
having gender dysphoria. Obviously there's
a lot more outside of the medical idea. We're
not really going to get into that right now.
We're just going to talk about, talk about
like the sort of science behind it and what
we've studied. Cool. Yeah. Nice, nice, nice.
So obviously there is a therapy for gender
dysphoria. I'm going to get into that really
quickly just because some things, it leads
to some interesting topics like how hormones
work and things like that. Um, and then I'm
going to talk about trans brains. So first
off, uh, you've got sort of surgeries and,
um, surgeries for gender dysphoria, basically
two, uh, gender reassignment surgeries. Uh,
Noah, you know, a little bit about that don't
you? I know a lot about That. Do you wanna
give, uh, give a rundown. Give a run down?
Yeah. Okay. People who are assigned female
at birth that are either, you know, trans
man or non-binary and like the masculine scale
and all the surgeries they can have, they
could get their breasts cut off. Um, that
alleviates the chest dysphoria. They could
also get phalloplasty or metoidioplasty was
a type of a bottom surgery that gives, you
know, a penis On a platter. Just gives you
a day. There you go. You get one. you pay
lots of money for it. And then people that
are assigned male at birth, are either trans
women or non-binary on the feminine scale,
they can get breast implants or they can get,
you know, bottom surgery again, opposite of
metoidioplasty well, no, is that where they
get the willies for the metoidioplasty? No
metoidioplasty is, Oh, I'm trying to find
a, like an easy way to explain it. But metoidioplasty
is the one where they don't cut skin off.
They just use what you have that one's called
phalloplasty! And pretty much they just gave
the trans woman a vagina.Â
Yeah. Interestingly, um, top surgery wasn't
developed for trans people. Actually, all
of this is, this is the only reason I'm really
bringing it up is because none of this...
Was it for breast cancer? No. Okay. So, okay.
So there are mastectomies, which is sort of
removing the breast tissue. Um, obviously
top surgery is different to that because you're
not just removing all of the breast tissue.
You're also sort of sculpting it into a particular
look now, as I said, interestingly, none of
this was developed for trans people at all.
Um, so you've got this thing called, um, gynecomastia.
Yeah. I was expecting you to pronounce it
wrong.
I can never remember which way it is. Um,
effectively that's when someone that is male
grows, uh, grows breast tissue through a whole
of different number of reasons. It could be
a hormone imbalance or sort of anything else,
old age, lots of these things. And you can
grow effectively the full female breasts,
um, as a, as an X, Y male. Wow. That's what
happens to vegan soy boys. Doesn't it? That's
what happens. that's what happens to vegan
soy boys
They all grow breasts. Soys got all that estrogen
in it!
It's not get estrogen in it, it's got pant
estrogens in it that we talk about in the
vegan episode in veganuary. Go listen to that
We've spoken about this in the vegans episode
for January. Go listen to that. Yeah. So,
uh, uh, not metoidioplasty metoidioplasty.
It's probably the only one that, uh, was really
developed for trans people. sorry, is that
making a vagina? No, But metoidioplasty, so
phalloplasty is where you get a skin graft.
So you get, it's gonna go off from your arm,
you turn it into a penis and yourself onto
yourself. well not onto yourself, actually
someone else. Dont sow it onto yourself, That's
not recommended. That is some Skill. I'll
do it myself out of my way. Oh No, metoidioplasty
is a type of bottom surgery for trans guys
or like masculine, non binary people where
there is no skin graph per se, but they just
use the growth that you get from testosterone.
And then they mess around with that a bit
you could add balls and stuff. It's kind of
just like a micro penis.
What's so fascinating about this. Cause this
is something I didn't know until a couple
of years ago when I got in a conversation
with, I think Noah and our friend Phoenix,
um, which is something that I think people
would legitimately find very interesting,
which is that when you, um, when you start
taking testosterone as a trans man, um, you
grow kind of like a penis thing, like a penis
type thing. A lil' dickie.
Well, that's the reason why that's so fascinating
in combination with, like you say, Corry,
that, um, male assigned male at birth bodies
are able to grow breast tissue. Is that really?
I think that is the center of any kind of,
um, confusion around the, that results in
transphobia is that actually we aren't male
or female. We have, we have certain hormones
and certain genetic structures that trigger
certain types of growth. And that when you
introduce the other type of like the assigned
female body to testosterone or an assigned
male body to Eastern, they start the process
of growing towards male and female. So male
and female are more directions or ends of
a spectrum than they are clear cut. And that
goes against everything we're taught, but
it is actually the case. And that there is
evidence to that in the fact that people grow
body parts that aren't traditionally meant
for them when exposed to certain chemicals.
And that is fascinating. Yes. I agree. I love
this game of 4D chess. I've been playing all
of this stuff that I've laid out right now.
Was to set up, all of the things you guys
have been saying genuinely, this is, this
is the kind of direction that I want to take
it. Yeah, this is what we do, ruin Corry's
work. Honestly, I know that you ruined my
work and I took that into account and put
it into my work. I planned for this to happen!
Oh, he's evolving!
Oh, that's perfect. Because that actually
does bring you onto my next point of hormones.
So obviously a lot of trans people, um, use
hormones as therapy. But what I want to get
into is how hormones actually affect the body.
Obviously there's lots of different kinds
of hormones. There's not just the sex hormones,
but, um, generally when we talk about hormones,
we talk about, we talk about the sex hormones,
interestingly. So what you were saying luke,
about, um, sort of there being a sort of male
direction and a female direction, that that
is kind of, kind of true in that, in, in the
womb, all, um, all sort of all people originally
are female before birth or that it's to do
with the, Oh, we're all FTM!, Not the women.
everyone everyone's FTM.
Oh, that means woman are F T M. T F. Yeah.
No, no, no. They just never. No, they didn't
grow a penis. And then it dropped off Noah.
The trans is speaking. Okay. I apologize.
Everything you say is gospel. Absolute. You
could say, you could look at, you could say
that trans women are F T M T F if effectively
in the womb, you, um, you're a female. And
then what happens is sex differentiation wherein
there are hormones in the womb that, um, well
I say hormones in the womb.
Can you just retrieve them? Let me say that
again. It's like a top man. You pick out which
ones you want. This one.
Let me try that again. This is a very difficult
topic. Now this is basically a part one.I
cannot do. I cannot do the entirety of sort
of, um, sexual dimorphism and sex. In one
episode, this is just a sort of flying. This
is a flying visit to the, to the realm of
sex. Now just 1 0 1 trans 1 0 1 class, but
just sex 101. Or just sex 1 0 1. That could
be Misconstrued in and out. That's it? That's
all you got to know. When mommy and daddy,
Okay. The birds. Okay. Right. This is something
completely irrelevant. Right? But we talk
about the birds and the bees. We could not
have chosen two animals that are worse for
that. Most birds don't have genitalia and
bees don't have sex in the way that we have
sex, bees. Don't have like two sexes. They've
got, they can like insects can have different,
a different number of sexes. These have a
little pricker. Huh? And they put it in. That's
a sting.
How have you just said birds? Don't have genitalia
and nobody's questioned that?
They have gone. Okay. So a lot of birds don't
have, um, genitals in the way that we'd consider
it. Um, they rub against each other and kind
of, they don't have penises. Ducks have penisis
um, a lot of birds don't have like penises
and vaginas. If you had a bottle of water
and you wanted to get some of the water into
another bottle and you just kind of go like
this? Sure. Except yours, except it's covered
in feathers. I have a feathery bottle. That's
why chickens have got a cloaca , which is
like, you know, they're, they're all in one
hole That's what I thought humans have to
be honest until I was 11. My sister thought
that too. I remember at some point far too
late in her life, she thought there was one
hole for everything. And that confused me.
It makes sense though. Doesn't it? Of course.
I'm not saying it's just not, if you don't
look at yourself. Yeah you just assume, no,
no. Or go through any kind of sex education,
which we definitely did. That's true.
I don't know how that happened. Okay. So getting
back to the womb, basically, as we know, you've
got a.. Oh we're all trying to get back to
the womb, Corry, Please, Please mum,
This episode's really gone off the rails very
fast. I thought I had control and you guys
snatched it from my grasp. We're doing our
job. So in the womb, um, obviously we know
that we've got the sort of sex chromosomes.
We've got X chromosomes, the Y chromosomes,
um, Y chromosomes are like X chromosomes,
faulty little brother. Um, it's just missing
a bit. It's missing it. You know, spaghetti
hoops. Yes. They got those shapes.
Yes. The letters. Yeah. That's what I'm picturing
right now. Letter, spaghetti letters. spaghetti
letters yeah X and Y's. Interesting. It's
interesting when you picture an alphabet.
You picture alphabet soup. Yeah, I do.
So back on track, moving from alphabet soup,
you've got X chromosomes, Y chromosomes so-called
because actually we do look a little bit like
an X and a Y um, most chromosomes look like
an X. The Y chromosome is quite literally
missing a little bit. Um, so, but it gives
you an extra bit usually. Yeah. Okay. Jesus.
usually. Yeah. So interestingly, um, it's
due to those hormones that, um, you basically
differentiate from, um, a sort of female sort
of fetus into a male fetus. Um, so effectively
all, um, all babies are female originally.
Uh, and what happens is there's this, um,
there, there is this sort of, um, syndrome
called complete androgen insensitivity syndrome,
which basically means that you have, um, no
sensitivity to, uh, sort of testosterone or
male sex hormones. So in the womb, despite
the fact that you've got X, Y chromosomes,
you present completely female because there
was no masculinization because you basically
don't react to those male sex hormones.Â
So if he took testosterone then would it still
just not? So I've not looked, I mean, I've,
I've looked into this like, uh, like quite
a little bit myself. I'm not entirely sure.
It's kind of a spectrum of like, um, of sensitivity
to androgens. So there are so many, um, um,
there are so many different sort of, um, ways
that you can have not have say non XX chromosomes
and still present completely female, um, or
have X, Y chromosomes and not present completely
male. Uh it's it's so the, the idea that sex
is, um, X, X, and X, Y for sure. It's just
not true. So there's more, there's more to
say to them that the X, X is always women
and X, Y is always men. Yeah. So even like
even taking trans people out of the equation,
that's not always the case. Um, so yeah, as
I said, um, you start off basically completely
female and the sex hormones are what, um,
what effect that, so do you guys know what
hormones are? Just to start off with? Chemicals!
High Five? I could ask you almost any question
and the answer would be chemicals. Yeah. Until
we get to subatomic particles, everything
is chemicals! Chemicals secreted by a part
of your body. Yeah.
What's this biological chemical, it's a chemical
secreted. Yeah. Um, so hormones are chemical
messengers that travel throughout the body,
um, and coordinate processes like growth,
uh, metabolism, fertility, and even sort of
sex presentation. Um, so they can influence
the immune system and change behavior. Um,
there are, there are really wide ranging sort
of, um, what was that face? Oh, you just said
they can change behavior. And you're like
mood when I don't have my testosterone, I
want to die.Â
What's the difference then Corry, between
a, um, a hormone and a neurotransmitter. So,
uh, hormones are secreted into the blood and
traveled to different areas of the body. So
they could be secreted by different, um, gland
in the body. So there's the endocrine system,
which basically means the secreting within
system. Um, so you've got different hormonal
glands. You've got your, um, thyroid gland,
you've got, um, testes, ovaries, um, loads
of different loads, different parts, your
body secrete, different hormones, those travel
in your blood and effect, um, hormone receptors,
anywhere in your body. Um, insulin, for example,
um, uh, I'm pretty sure it's a hormone. So
yeah, you guys kind of know what hormones
are now. Um, they can influence a lot of things.
Um, as I said, brain signals, one of your
hormones, your hormones, creators, um, a hormone
gland, which then secretes it directly into
the bloodstream, which that affects whichever
receptor, um, that hormone is, um, like, you
know, effects. So there were, as I said, there
are sex hormones. You've got, uh, the gonads
sort of the testes and the ovaries and those,
um, probably the ones that we're most familiar
with those secrete, um, the sex hormones,
as you recall, do you guys know, um, the names
of any sex hormones?
Estrogen testosterone progesterone,Â
Ding, ding, ding. Okay. So those are, um,
never heard that word in my life. You've never
heard of progesterone? How many women do you
know? Not many, not even that Phoenix, was
that a progesterone shot for almost a year.
Never heard of it! I thought it was testosterone?
Oh my god. Oh is that the depo thing? I called
it depo. We just couldn't take estrogen. So
we had to take Progesterone. Yeah. Progesterone
is basically to be used as a, basically a
what's called, um, contraceptive that's it.
Sexy no kids.Â
So yeah, there are, there are different kinds
of sex hormones. Um, you've got androgens,
estrogens and progesterones. I'm pretty sure
you can guess. I thought it was just progestins?`
There's like three different names. Yeah.
Uh, so androgens are synthesized in the testes
and the ovaries and the adrenal glands. Um,
that's testosterone is an androgen. Andro
coming from, um, male. Um, and interestingly,
people might not know this. It's not a case
of only men produce testosterone and only
women produce estrogen. We all produce a bit
of both. Yeah, exactly. Everyone produces
a little bit of both. There's a Balance. Yeah,
exactly. There's a different, there's different
levels in sort of, uh, between sort of, um,
people that were assigned male at birth and
people assigned female at birth, but, um,
yeah. Um, everyone, generally everyone has,
uh, both types of hormone. So in the uterus,
um, DHT, dihydrotestosterone, um, causes differentiation
of a penis scrotum and prostates. So yeah,
like, as I said, start a female, a DHD comes
in, you grow that penis, you grow that scrotum,
you get that prostate. If only I started testosterone
in the womb, You've got to get it early. Wouldn't
that bang? That'd be so sick. At least start
puberty blockers in the womb. I just wouldn't
grow.Â
So yeah, in the womb, DHT causes the growth
of a penis or ovaries. I was gonna say, uh,
penis testes and, um, prostate, but in older
age it can cause uh, boldness and um, Oh no.
Yeah. That's not very good. Is it?Â
Balding, prostate growth and, uh, sebaceous
gland activity. Oh that's like being oily
isn't it? Yeah. So that's like, if you look
on the, if you look on your nose, um, and
sometimes if you squeeze your nose like this,
like these little kind of spot things will
come out. That's why old men do that! They
all have massive pores in their noses and
they squeeze them. I wonder if the, now this
is a bit of a far out theory of mine. Maybe
it has no holds no water whatsoever, but it's
always fascinated me that, um, that one of
the sort of take downs that is used against
men, um, by people who are understandably
angry at men sometimes, um, is like, ha, this
person's balding. Right. Which is like, it's
a bit of a low blow. Um, but you know what
evs, Men have done enough. Um, and I wonder
if, like, I wonder if, um, there's some understanding
on a subconscious level that, um, the thing
that you are angry about if you are against,
like, I have been hurt by men is, is like
the things that make them men, right.Â
Which then manifest into like some kind of
relative privilege in the world. And the very
thing that makes you into a man or sorry,
a male, um, DHT, um, is then the thing that
makes you bold. So maybe that's why people
who are understandably angry at men then make
fun of boldness. Cause it's like the thing
that give'th the privilege, but then the thing
that take'th away absolutely. Before that
I'd be for that theory 100%, if we'd known
that for all of human history. Dosen't it
mean that bold men are the manliest men. Yeah.
Well, no bold men always seem to be the men
that are like trying to be more manly. It's
not even just like your T levels though. No,
it's not genetic thing as well. So even if
you have really high T levels, it doesn't
necessarily mean you're gonna go bold.Â
So, okay. Bear and bear in mind, hormones
are, hormones are very complicated. This is
something that we're really simplifying a
lot here in that. If you think about it, let's
look at another hormone insulin, for example,
now, so you can not produce enough insulin
or produce, um, uh, or produce no insulin
at all. That's a, that's a type of diabetes,
or you can have an insensitivity to insulin.
So your insulin receptors don't really, um,
don't really like sort of bind to insulin
and receive it in the way that they should.
Now that could apply to lots of different
hormones. So obviously what that shows us
is that there's different levels of sensitivity
to different hormones in the body. And that
also applies to the sex hormones. So I, if
we, if we were to go around the room and take
our testosterone levels, there is no telling
through, um, sort of our phenotypic features
of which person is going to have the highest,
um, testosterone sort of testosterone. It
probably would be me though? When was your
last shot? Um, 10 minutes ago. It was a few
days ago. Well cause obviously you, you guys
consistently have consistent T levels, but
I inject myself and then they shoot up. Do
we not have consistent T levels? Does it not
spike during things like exercise or like
sexual arousal. Yeah! Just in general, you
don't right. Luke, your balls aren't just
producing a big load of testosterone. Yeah
and then it runs out.
I just mean, are their certain circumstances
that regulate the production of testosterone.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look, when I say are regular
or consistent, I mean there are cycles, um,
is more or less due to other factors, but
they're pretty consistent. It's not, it's
not a case of like injecting every three weeks
where you get a spike and then you get a trough
and then you get another spike. I read somewhere
once that. So like, um, uh, D D D what is
it? DHT is, um, created in the body from the
breakdown of testosterone, which is what causes
male pattern baldness. So this is sorry. And
that, that can be exacerbated and sped up
by large amounts of exercise. Oh. So I, I
don't know if that's true, but, but that's
what I read. So I don't know. Um, I don't
know the sort of chemical process to produce
DHD. What I do know is that, um, androgens,
uh, are sort of precursors to estrogen.Â
What do you mean by precursor? So a precursor
is basically just a sort of chemical that
is, that can be made into another chemical.
So you can aromatase, uh, I don't know, I'm
putting it in quotes. It's aromatase. You
can basically change. You can basically, uh,
sort of change testosterone, um, add a few
bits, take a few bits away or change its a
little bit and turn it into estrogen. Not
all of those. Obviously there is one specific
pathway to turn testosterone into estrogen.
I'm just saying a precursor to a chemical,
being a precursor to another chemical basically
just means, um, but in the body you can produce,
um, uh, you can produce another chemical from
it. Interesting. So if you make like a tree,
like the body makes this thing, that it can
turn into three other things. Each of those
three things can be turned into three other
things, it branches out.Â
So yeah, as I said, testosterone is a precursor
to estrogen, which is interestingly, if you
take too much testosterone, it can be converted
into estrogen because, if your testosterone
levels are too high, I'm obviously thinking
about it. Your body likes to keep things,
um, like leveled out. So if your testosterone
levels are super high, like ridiculously high,
like you've been injecting yourself with testosterone
when you've already got solid testosterone
levels, it's going to convert that back into
estrogen. That's why bodybuilders grow boobies?
Wow, they go bold and grow boobies. The worst
of both worlds. They do. Fascinating. It is.
Yeah. Um, and as I said, um, it's, uh, testosterone,
isn't just present in, uh, males. It can also
be present in females. Now, I just want to
clear this up, uh, throughout this episode
we're going to be using, um, male and female.
I'm generally going to be using male as a
shorthand for assigned male at birth and the
same for female shorthand for assigned female
at birth, just for simplicity. He's not saying
male is man and female is woman. You're talking
about men and we'll call them men talk about
when we'll call the women. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
If talk about men, call them men talking about
women, call them women, male, female sex,
and gender is not the same thing. J K Rolling.
So in females, testosterone can function in
libido and sexual arousal. That's funny. It's
just a silence and then. Yeah. So I think
the key point to take away from this is that
the sex hormones have multiple functions,
um, for every single person. So it's not just
a case of testosterone make man it's testosterone
does a wide variety of things. One of which
is make male. Um, one, just one, um, and estrogens.
Uh, so estrogens are synthesized in all vertebrates.
Um, and also in some insects, um, why specifically
vertebrates? Well, it just means they've got
a backbone, but why I'm going to have a spine.
Okay. Because, because, because um invertebrates
is a massive, okay. Compared to, compared
to invertebrates, vertebrates is a very small
group. If you think about it, vertebrates
includes like bony fish and mammals and reptiles
birds, Not jellyfish, no cartilaginous, fish
like sharks, which are mostly cartilage. Do
you guys not know? Sharks are mostly cartilage?
Do you guys not know that know that you guys
don't know fish? How are Sharks are mostly
cartilage? Because they're not above land.
They don't have to have a particularly strong
structure because they don't have gravity
acting on them. So initially, uh, initially
there were, um, there were like basically
two sets of, two sects, two, uh, fish kind
of split off to be the ones that have like
sort of bones and the ones that have just
sort of cartilage, like, cause like Luke said
they don't necessarily need bones for structure
for the structure. Um, so there's different
types of fish in that sence. If Sharks had
bones. I think they would sink.Â
Makes sense. I just never thought sharks dont
have bones. They still have bones, their teeth
are probably made ofÂ  bone, I assume. Yeah,
they've got, they've obviously got teeth and
they do have a skeleton. It's a cartilaginous
skeleton. It's yeah. Basically their skeletons
aren't made of bone the way, the way that
ours are. I thought Skeleton meant strictly
bone. So when you said sharks didn't have
bones. And I was like, imagine if you Listen
to this episode of a science show about being
trans and you went to get a cup of tea and
you came back and we're talking about the
bone structure of sharks. Interestingly because
sharks don't have bone marrow. Um, they can,
they produce red blood cells and other things,
uh, elsewhere, in their bodies. Uh, one of
those places supposedly are the gonads. So,
ah, interestingly bloody gonads.Â
So moving on to estrogens, as I said, estrogens
are synthesized in all vertebrates and also
some insects now, as I was saying, um, vertebrates
in comparison to invertebrates is a tiny,
tiny group. If you think about it invertebrates
includes basically all,Â  all sort of, um,
insects, it includes crustations, um, sort
of like mollusks, anything that doesn't have
a spine, that's an invertebrate or there are
loads of them. Yeah. Our Prime Ministers One
of them actually. Oh, let's go. I can't believe
the country's being run by a vertebrate.Â
Wait, what. make it make sense. The country
has always been run by vertebrae. Can't believe
that our country is being run by an invertebrate.
Que another canned laughter there that's great.
Moving on. Um, estrogens. So in males, estrogens,
uh, regulate functions of the reproductive
system, um, uh,Â  important to the maturation
of sperm. So basically you get a sperm from
the point of making it to being ready to shoot
out and make a baby that's that's what estrogen
could be used for. Um, and apparently it could
also be, it can also be important for a sort
of healthy sex drive.Â
Oh, that's so interesting. Yeah. So estrogen
controls sex drive in males, but testosterone
controls in female. Well, no, I think, um,
I think both control both. So I think the
levels of it. So this doesn't necessarily
mean that, um, estrogen makes, uh, makes males
horny what it means. I think it probably does.
Well, I'm sure there's a sub reddit for that.
it regulate, so that could be decreasing or
increasing. Um, and in females, estrogen is
used for a lot of things. Now there's lots
of different. Um, there's lots of different
estrogens. So there's three major league,
naturally occurring estrogens.
Oh, that's what, sorry. That's what trans
women take the gel. When I went to my last
gender appointment, they gave me the wrong
leaflet. They gave me a estrogen gel leaflet.
That is a nice compliment actually. Yeah.
So, well she just didn't read it. It wasn't,
it didn't register whatever it was. Yeah.
Here you go. It'll turn into the, turn into
estrogen anyways. We'll do something. Um,
yeah, there's also another type of vision
called....
Is that a thing or did that just come out
of your mouth?
Yeah, there's also another, uh, which also
includes sharks full circle. Mostly from finding
nemo. Yeah, that's it. That's what I just
said. Sharks before Pixar invented sharks.
They didn't exist before. That was. Yeah,
but they copied finding Nemo and just... I
watched Shark Tail a few weeks ago. And it
was the most disappointing film I've ever
seen. Really. I think it was fantastic. So
bad. Had a great PS2 games go along with it.
Yeah because the whole film looked like a
PS2 game. Which made the PS2 game. Look amazing.
I can tell you that. The fish does look like
Will Smith though. Doesn't it?Â
You really like Will Smith. Yeah. The one
that I don't like, it's the hot Angelina Jolie
fish. Cause there's no, you have no right.
Making a fish look that good! Also Martin
Scorsese is a puffer fish for some reason.
Do you guys remember that? It's just, they
stuck his head on a puffer fish. Transpeople!
Back to estrogen guys. Yes. Yes. So, um, there's
another type of estrogen called Estetrol,
which is produced only during pregnancy. So
just by sheer looks sort of, um, sort of quantity
estrogens, um, are present at lower levels
that androgens in both men and women, obviously
estrogens are, um, way lower in males than
they are in females. But yeah, there's, there's
low levels of estrogens, um, just as a rule.
Um, so I'm just gonna quickly go over secondary
sex characteristics. Um, these are the ones
that, um, that arent basically quite as clear
cut as, um, sort of genitals. So your genitals
and some of the things are your primary sex
characteristics. Those are there from birth
secondary sex characteristics come in puberty.
So that's um, facial hair, um, facial hair
for who? Everyone? Yes. Actually that's, you've,
you've gotten into exactly what I was going
to get into. So there's, um, for typically
for males there's, um, a larger chest, um,
hair growth in the armpits muscle, muscle
growth, um, the arms, legs and shoulders,
um, yeah, like a lowering of the voice, um,
uh, sort of, uh, you know, like facial hair,
generally things that you've, we've pretty
much all had like, um, sex education, just
go into what happens at puberty, the stuff
that happens at puberty for, um, generally
for males, um, are their secondary sex characteristics
and vice versa for females. The interesting
thing here is obviously we've already spoken
about, um, about males growing breast tissue,
um, and, and things like that.Â
So the idea of secondary sex characteristics
being solely, um, a sort of strict category
between men and women, um, or males and females
just isn't really true. I mean, we, we, you've
obviously heard of like bearded ladies, but
generally, um, women can grow, um, or females
can grow facial hair to some degree. Um,Â 
body hair, um, it is always weird in sex ed
they were like, and the boys will start growing
armpit hair and stuff. They'll shave it off.
So it doesn't actually happen. But like, obviously,
like they'll still, like, they're like, um,
like if you're female, you can still grow
facial hair, um, as well. Like that's not,
that's not completely unheard of, but we don't
want to say it, so we're not going to teach
it. Yeah, exactly. So I think the, I think
the thing is what's interesting here is that
all of these changes that happened between
males and females aren't necessarily a very
strict, this only happens to males. And this
only happens to females. There's this kind
of like, sort of, um, little curve in the
middle where mostly male and then a little
bit of crossover, then mostly females, you
know, a normal distribution. Yeah. Like exactly.
That's exactly what I'm getting to. Yeah.
So my point here is more that we see, we often
think of sex as being very strict. Um, you
check a box you're either one or the other,
but actually it makes more sense to look at,
to look at sex as a very, very common, um,
set of characteristics. Two very, very common
sets of characteristics with sort of, um,
cross over in between like a Venn diagram.
Okay.
But like a gradient Venn diagram. Yeah, exactly.
That's a bell curve. Sorry. A normal distribution.
I don't want to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's very
difficult to describe on an, on an audio format.
I was trying to explain it to people who don't
know what that is. It's like, okay. It's like,
you've got two Hills that are next to each
other, basically. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That makes
sense, everyone. Yeah. So, um, moving on from
that, uh, I want to talk about trans brains.
I'm sure you guys have heard of the idea of
sex differences in brains. There's a male
brain and there's a female brain. Men have
got stronger, right brains women have got
stronger left brains and men have got bigger
brains than women. And that's just the way
it is. Cause, cause your brain is, your brain
is different depending on what sex you are,
um, pink brains and blue brains. Yes, exactly.
The Victorians initially actually had boys
having pink brains and girls having blue brains.
But um, they decided to swap that a little
bit later. Um, fun sized fact that you didn't
know, just shake it up, because pink was a
bold masculine color. And then somehow yeah,
because it was bold and it was bright. Like
baby blue was kind of seen as a softer, more
feminine color and then it was changed. It's
funny. It's almost like there's no weight
to any of these arbitrary colours at all!
It's like, it means nothing.
Honestly, I think color, uh, attribution.
So for instance, purple used to be a Royal
color because it used to be very expensive
to make purple pigments. And so only people,
the only people that could get purple.. It's
a nice color though. Yeah. That's why we use
it. Oh yeah, we do use it. So the only reason,
the only reason that, um, the only reason
that purple was a Royal color was because
it was expensive and like. There, there is
no reason for purple to be a Royal color other
than the fact that it was expensive to make
at one point that's quite literally it. Um,
but yeah, so moving on from that, um, I've
already, I've already spoken about, um, complete
androgen insensitivity syndrome. Um, and so
they did, they did a study, which kind of
showed that, um, there were, there was a,
there was a role of sex hormones in sexual
differentiation of, um, some structure in
the white matter of the brain.
So basically in some parts of your brain,
um, sex hormones do have to have an effect
on difference and structure. Um, but there
are also, um, there are also effects that
are outside of those sex hormones. Uh, so
no, not all of the, not all the differences
that you can see between brains are due to
those sex hormones. Um, and there was also
a big study in 2005. It was used as a sort
of, um, this sort of groundbreaking piece
of there's a male brain and a female brain
that used 21 men and 27 women, um, which is
a tiny, tiny experiment. Um, and they showed,
um, they showed it to between male and female,
female brains there, but I've got a couple
articles I've looked at there's a few more,
uh, from 2018, 2015, that basically kind of
look at, um, all of these studies.
I do a meta analysis, which is basically when
you take a lot of studies and look at all
of the results and see what picture that paint,
put them all together. And basically what,
what these kinds of methods analyses find
is that, um, you would generally expect that
as the, um, as the sample size increases,
the, the different, the differentiation is
more apparent, but actually that that's not
necessarily the case. So w what they're basically
saying with these meta analysis is that, um,
the difference between male and female brains
is less of two distinct categories and more
kind of picking and picking and choosing different
sort of attributes. So there, there could
be, there could potentially be a sort of spectrum
of like male brain to female brain. Um, but,
uh, that, uh, that it's not a very strict
sort of, you don't have a male brain or a
female brain. Right. Uh, so I, I see a lot
of people saying that I'm saying I'm trans,
because I've got a male brain or I'm trying
to cause I've got a female brain. And the
thing is when you look into the science of
that, it doesn't necessarily back that up
as much as, as you'd think. Um, and, and there's
also the, there's also the aspect of a lot
of this has been a lot of this has been guided
by, uh, by sort of sexist rhetoric in the
first place. If you already are looking for
difference between males and females, you're
gonna find, you're gonna find it if it's like,
if there are, if you find differences, you
might end up attributing that to, um, to sort
of biological sex or chromosomes rather than,
um, other, other attributes that are, that
are present or that could be like environmental
factors surely. Well, there are environmental
factors.
Males and females are raised so differently
and experience difference. There are environmental
factors and actually they find the, um...
so I think they did a study on the on the
amygdala which obviously processes, um, sort
of, I think certain kinds of emotion. And
they find that apparently, um, the amygdala,
was bigger, um, in males and females, but
when you adjusted for the increased size of
male brains, like it wasn't, it wasn't. big
burns. There wasn't actually that much of
a difference. The thing is that there are,
you can kind of look at, um, overall sort
of difference in male and female brains, but
I'm attributing that solely to sort of sex
doesn't really add up. This is one of those
ones that we don't quite know. So I can't
give you a very, um, solid answer saying yes,
male, female brains exist, or no, they don't.
It's kind of more of a, meh. Question just
from a... purely from, for a clarification
perspective and for my wanting to understand
better as well. Um, do you think there is
any possibility that... I'm conscious of how
I word this question? Cause it's definitely
a potentially problematic question, but I'm
just asking out of interest and understanding
to a certain extent understanding how scientific
bias also creeps in. Um, is there any... right
now in our world, there is not very much of
a desire to find differences between male
and female brains because our political, um,
sort of direction is towards pointing out
and finding ways In which we are the same
for very, very good reasons. Um, do you think
that affects in any way, which type of studies
get funding and whether studies are amplified
more or sort of pushed aside because they
don't find the desired results?
I think ultimately that's something that they
can affect either side of the argument, I
think for a long time, I think for a long
time that that affected in one way of, yeah,
you're looking for male and female brains.
So I think to the contrary might not, um,
might not be public. There is, there is a
sort of publication bias if you're looking
for something, um, we could do a whole episode
of publication bias, but if you were looking
for something and you find results that kind
of get towards that point, and then you publish
them with those positive results, um, generally
the ones that end up end up getting published
frequently are the ones with those positive
results. So, um, you can then see a trend
that might actually be there. I don't know
necessarily if, um, that bias is influencing
the current sort of studies. I think potentially
it's obviously doing studies on, for instance,
people.., like sort of women with x... people
that present female and people that are biologically
female with X, Y chromosomes. So people with
complete androgen insensitivity syndrome doing
studies like that show us more than we would
have known before. So I don't necessarily
think that this sort of political climate
is, is pushing those studies forward.
I just wondered if it's possible. No, it's
so it's absolutely a possibility. I think
one thing we need to pay, we need to really
remember is that, um, we, we making this podcast
and potentially also the people listening
to this podcast as well are, um, we're almost
in an echo chamber of sorts. So we don't necessarily
represent the views of, um, the scientific
community or the community at large. So just
because those are our views doesn't necessarily
mean that those are the ones that getting
pushed through. And this is a really difficult
thing because we don't have a huge wealth
of studies that very conclusively say one
thing or the other. It's very difficult to
tell where that bias is coming in. I think
obviously I think the best way to kind of,
we're never going to get rid of bias fully,
but I think, I think, um, with good scientists
and with good meta-analysis, um, we can try
and see past any potential bias.
It's also absolutely impossible for us to
do a study on differences between male and
or assigned male and assigned female brains.
Because if we, for example, found like Noah
touched on, if we did find a difference between
assigned male and assigned female brains,
that might be because of how they were raised
causing those sections of the brain to grow
more. So we can't do a study on like a completely
blank, an altered brain. Test babies! No don't
test babies!
Yeah, no, we'll see, because babies brains
areÂ  just different. Soup! Even Amy's brains
are very different. Even if you tested babies,
they are, they still have genetic markers
in the form of epigenetics that have come
from the parents that have grown up in our
society.
Also bear in mind that babies don't have,
I haven't gone through puberty yet. So haven't
really differentiated sexually, other than
their primary sex characteristics. I think
it's a very complex issue. And I think that,
yeah, look, this is not to say that there
aren't sex hormones or sex doesn't affect,
um, your sort of brain structure. Um, clearly
there are some effects, but going, as far
as the saying, there are male and female brains
doesn't necessarily reflect the science. And
also saying that um, sex is a very strict
two category system is also not necessarily
biologically sound.
In an ideal, an ideal Western world, even
if 95% of the brains of one sex, we're, one
way you don't want to label that other 5%,
that aren't that way in a way that then limits
their life opportunities. Yeah. It's very
easy to think of male and female. To be very
distinct and separate groups with, um, phenotypes
that you only see in one. And the other, the
fact is that there is kind of, uh, there is
a spectrum of physical sex in that. Um, you
can have people that are male that grow less
facial hair and people that grow more facial
hair and there's overlap, um, with people
that are female that grow more facial hair
than, than, um, people that, that are male.
Um, and all the way, like there is a lot of
overlap in the middle between, uh, what we
would call male and what we call female. Uh,
I just think that that's interesting that
that's something that is overlooked. Um, so
often, um, I think, yeah, I just think thinking
of, we like to categorize things as people
and it makes sense why we like to categorize
things, but sometimes that doesn't reflect,
um, the actual data in front of us.
So why according to science and your research,
why are trans people trans to the best of
our knowledge so far? No, there are, there
are like, there are different theories. There
are theories about hormonal imbalances in
the womb. There are theories about, um, brains
being more similar to, um, more similar to
brains of the opposite sex. Um, there are
lots of theories out there. There is not one
that I want to, I want to say this is, this
is the one there's none of them that I want
to put all my chips in on. I don't think that
we're there with the research yet. Uh, so
I don't think it makes sense to make a bold
claim on it yet. So I will answer your question
with a no.
So that means then just so I understand properly,
um, that means that because, because for,
for many years, for many decades, we treated,
um, trans people, um, as, um, mentally unwell
and we tried to convert them. We tried to
do all sorts of dreadful things and the current,
um, best Idea of how to, how to approach this
is that we go and, um, like say the best way
of coping with this with gender dysphoria
is to have the person transition. And to be
a societal, um, acceptance of It, and that's
because that's not because of any or any specific
scientific understanding its because that
is the best way to make the person happy and
to make them less likely to commit suicide.Â
So I think there are two key points here and
I just want to quickly touch on them for one
thing, the best route for all trans people
is not, um, complete medical transition. Um,
that's just not the case. And looking at being
trans as a purely medical or scientific thing,
I think is an unhealthy way of looking at
it. That's, that's my own personal viewpoint
in the same way that I don't think we, we
should look at, um, we should look at sort
of sexualities or, or any, or anything else
of that from a purely medical standpoint.Â
Well, I think it's more that like for most
people who are trans gender dysphoria is like
a very significant thing in that life. And
it's all well and nice people like acknowledging
that you're actually a man and not a female,
even if you were born a female, but for a
lot of people that gender dysphoria is mainly
like focused around like sex characteristics
and that's a suitable way to treat it, but
obviously, not everybody feels that way. So
it's kind of like we're doing the best we
can because nobody really knows anything.
I feel like a lot of people view being trans
as one exact same experience when for each
trans person it's a completely different experience.
And trying to, trying to suggest that like,
this is the one way to be trans and this is
the one way to like treat being trans. It's
just like, it's just not the right way to
go about it because sure. If you thought like,
Oh, being trans is because of this, so let's
treat all of them like this that might not
necessarily help a lot of trans people.
That is really interesting. Like I think yeah,
saying that there's one root cause for trans
kind of ignores like kind of a lot of the...Â 
Like one cause for cancer. Yeah, exactly.
Or one cause for being gay or it's just, that
just doesn't really make sense with what we
know about, um, about, um, sort of humans
and biology and all of that. I think the,
I think the one takeaway from this episode
is categorization. Isn't always the best way
to deal with data. Yes. Right.
I think even if there was just one root cause
it still wouldn't necessarily mean that there's
one like treatment for it or one experience.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that, um, yeah,
like I said, viewing it as purely medical
isn't necessarily the way to go. I think that
sort of the sort of medical response right
now of providing the best treatment for, um,
for each person makes sense, providing surgeries
where, uh, where those are needed, providing
hormone therapy when that's needed. That seems
to make sense. I think the sort of medical
response in the scientific research, they
don't necessarily need to go hand in hand
in that we don't need to be researching so
we can figure out how best to treat transness.
Um, I think we should just, I think, I just
believe that we shouldÂ  we should research
a lot of things because it increases our understanding,
which is a great thing. Knowledge is, is almost
inherently, a powerful thing to have.
It's treating people on an individual basis,
isn't it? Yeah, yeah, Yeah, yeah, exactly.
To treat each person to their individual needs
and research humanity as a whole. If, if you
do discover that there's this cure, I'm sure
not all trans people would be like, Oh, that's
the best way to go about it because obviously
not, everybody's gonna want.. It's like, it's
like the X men. It's like the x men 3, the
last stand. Yeah, I have no idea.
Well, they made, they made a cure for being
an X man and not everyone wanted it, I guess
all I all I was, you know, and I, I'm trying
to put this in the, in the best possible way,
cause I don't actually have any opinion here.
I'm just trying to understand it. Um, the
thing that I'm, I'm trying to work out is
that I don't necessarily, um, I don't necessarily
conceptualize this as, um, somebody is I,
cause sorry, I conceptualize this. As somebody
goes to a doctor, someone they trust a teacher,
whoever they go to talk to about coming out.
And the main thing is I'm dissatisfied with
my current circumstance that, and, and, and
that dissatisfaction comes from the form of
the body that they're in. And what I'm wondering
is, is, is how is the best way to make this
person and help this person to be in a state
where they are no longer dissatisfied with
their life and that the moment that the best
science we have and the best understanding
we have is to, um, help that person to transition
into however they feel most comfortable.
Yes. Yeah. I don't think it's for any, I don't
think it's for any individual person to dictate
how and how we should view this. Obviously,
there are people that, um, you being trans
as a medical, medical condition. And if that,
if that's something that if that's something
that helps them or if that's something that
makes sense to them, then yeah, absolutely
go for that. There are also other people that
don't.. that wanted sort of demedicalized
like the trans identity, which for them, if
that makes sense, then, then yeah. I don't
think that there needs to be a very strict
sort of deciding what being trans is. It's
I think it's, I think it is just, it's such
a, I think it's such a personal experience
for each person, at least from all of the
people that I've spoken to, it's such a personal
experience for each person labelling it, um,
sort of medically or scientifically, um, kind
of, kind of undermines the idea of it just
being an identity.
Right? Sure. I've never actually, you're the
first person I've ever heard discuss this,
maybe a Testament to how little I understand
this, but you're the first person I've ever
heard, discussed being trans as anything other
than a thing that is dealt with from medical
perspective. And that's really sad and I'm
glad we're talking about this. I mean, look,
put it this way. There could be many, many
different, and I'm going to get to this next
week, but it can be many, many different reasons
for people being gay, bisexual, lesbian, or,
or, or anything like that. And we tend not
to focus on the why, because the way to make
the way to make people sort of comfortable
with, with those identities is just to not
be mean to them, not questioning the validity.
Whereas, whereas there's an added element.
There's an added element with being trans,
which can include a medical element, which
then I think it's sort of muddied the waters
in a sense. Yeah. Yeah. Cool, cool, great
news. I've learned something today.Yeah.
Thank you for watching. You can find the full
references for this episode in the descriptions.
Subscribe for the new episodes every Sunday
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