Today's episode is a result of a request
I put out a couple of months back for
people who worked in the space industry
and is an interview with Ex IBM and NASA
contractor Kenneth Roberts who worked on
the Saturn V, Skylab, space lab and also
the space shuttle and helped train the
crews and astronauts to understand and
use the custom-made flight and
operational computer systems. I would
also like to thank Tennis Smith in setting
up the interview and also for suggesting
it in the first place. So without further
ado here is interview and look at some
interesting reveals towards the end.
Welcome Kenneth Robert to curious droid
now Kenneth worked at IBM, during the
from 1968 after you graduated I
believe then on through the the latter
part, you missed the Apollo missions but
you worked  with the Skylab space lab
and in on into the shuttle and probably
up into the late seventies early
eighties in I presume. Yes I left middle
80s when I transitioned. when you're
over there yeah. So how did you end
up or how did you get into NASA because
you said you you you finished up with a
degree in Applied Mathematics
where did you or how did you get into NASA
and then end up on some of these actual
programs.
Well Paul, is kind of the luck of the
draw I guess at Auburn where I was
getting a master's degree in applied
mathematics I studied in graduate school
a subject called celestial mechanics - 
orbital mechanics you know that was an
interest to IBM so when I graduated they
were one of the companies that I
interviewed with. Well they had a job in
Huntsville which was close to my home so
it's just all fell together that's the
right I had some other offers but I
chose that one and went to work for IBM
who just happened to have and the reason
they were hiring as much the contracts
for all the flight computers and flight
software for the NASA programs of that
day, right
so you landed sort of really just just
at the right place at the right time
absolutely, we've the right information and
then obviously once you're in NASA you
then into really the sort of the front
end of it, absolutely rightly the right
time Paul. I know you know I was kind
of awed by the environment because IBM
had gone out and they they had recruited
the big schools that the Dukes the
Caltex the M.I.T's in this country and
here I was old country boy from North
Alabama from Auburn and I was kind of
awed with the talent of the people that
IBM had attracted there but this was you
it was it was all new to me, it was new
to the other guys and  luckily we had
some senior level people involved there
that could help the people like myself
just coming on board to learn the trade
so to speak because it was all you this
definitely computers were new
this was a whole new field of
computer applications, yes, yes because at
the time I think I mean MIT got the
contract to develop the the Apollo
guidance computer which i would imagine  
might have put IBM's nose out of joint a
little bit because obviously they were
the main computer contractor but they
got like this he job so all that was
absolutely brand-new and nobody's ever
done it before.
Absolutely olessa it was all new it was
man rated softwar,e it had never been
such a thing is there that's why there
was more than 50% of the total budget
for these programs we need to test an
integration. yeah so man-rated means,
explain what man-rated means. Man-rated
means that there was lives at stake
the lives the crew depended on the success
of this a failure would mean the loss of
life life and we tested and tested and
retested and I wound up in that test and
integration group
and we what was known as triple
modular redundancy. critical sensors were
in triplicate and our software had to
take the input from all three of the
sources do some analysis to determine if
there was a problem at all in any of
them if they disagree one of them
disagreed from the other to by more than
a tolerance we keep that one out right
it was a because we we had the system
set up so that we could have two
failures and still and still function
and operate in a safe environment. Right
yeah, so this is where the the multiple
systems come from. Yes, exactly right yes
after so you know you you started off
doing some programming but then you
moved more to the actual training of the
astronauts over crew that would be
actually using it so how did you sort of
get into that here we're there because
obviously you've come in with applied
mathematics you've done programming how, did you end up sort of being the sort of
interface with the crew. It was because
we had these a team of people and
those that were programmer,s Paul they
focus on a single functional area of the
software it might be the guidance system
it might be the control system it might
be the redundancy management system but
those that programmed focus on one isolated
functional area of the software
but so it tests and integration had to
know a little bit about all of the
systems because you were testing inputs
that supported all the different systems
so that guy and I was one of those guys
had a broader view of what the total
system was doing yeah and certainly with
the interfaces with the user interface
yeah so we were the logical choices then
to train the crew on what they were
going to see in the mission yeah and that's
how i wound up in that group. I see yes yes so
obviously you've got a wider range of
knowledge so you'll know that rather
than one guy just concentrating on just
one part and might not be very good at
sort of telling that to other people
because I know programmers and some of
them are quite introverted they don't
want to talk to other people exactly,
exactly and by virtue of being in that
group that sent me to Johnson Space
Center for the training sessions it sent
me to Kennedy Space Center for the tests
and integration that was done in advance
of the flight so I can I got a little
bit involved in that maybe a little more
so than some of the other engineers did
at that time yeah. so you were saying
when you worked on some of the later
systems which would be the Skylab and
things like that it would be all done in
situ so that would be and be launch
assembly building that's a big building
where they build the rocket itself so
you would test everything in there prior
to the thing rolling out and then
actually launching which wouldn't be
very far away. Exactly they would have in
the Vehicle Assembly Building they will
have everything they've got to be vehicle
they've got all the interface stuff and
did a real-time simulated mission
liftoff
still in the Vehicle Assembly Building
when every system appeared to be
functioning properly then they got to go
to roll out the Vehicle Assembly
Building to the launch pad. Yeah and this
is where you get then they've rolled
everything out they've got it on belongs
pad and then a sensor fails or something
like that and then stop, roll it back in
again go find out what's wrong with it
and then obviously do the whole thing
again
did that happen a few times. It did
happen it did happen I was not there
when we had one roll back in because
something didn't test right in the final
testing on the launch pad but it did
happen. right right so so then obviously
when you were actually there and you
were at the launch you were much closer
to the actual launch
because you're the the building where
they assemble the actual rocket and then
they roll it out and you say it's about
probably about a mile something like
that to where the actual thing that is
then lifts off so at liftoff you were
much closer than the normal general
public and all the cameras and
everything like that the TV cameras at
launch so what was the sensation like
when you were that close to Saturn V
lifting off well it was it was a little
bit different from what the general
public was allowed to see Paul because
we were a few miles closer roughly a
mile away probably but it was it was an
interesting phenomena because the first
thing you would see as the countdown
proceeded was the fireball underneath
the rocket, the Rockets not moving yet
but the fireball is there, the ignition
sequence is going through and then after
some seconds you see the vehicle start
to move upward and you still haven't
heard anything but eventually after some
more seconds it's like the sound of a
locomotive or something you hear the
sound waves rolling across the water
because it was water between us and the
launch pad and it was it was an
unbelievable experience especially the
first time you experienced it but it
almost knocked you down the sound waves
rolling across the water
almost knocked us down the first time
after that we used to brace ourselves
against the sound wave but it was it was
kind of a unique experience to watch the
things slowly and the Saturn climbed
slowly, such a huge rocket but it was
something to see and at the time I can
honestly say we didn't think that much
of it I mean it was what we did it was
part of the day's work and it's only in
looking back and in retrospect call if
you really start to sense that there was
something special about that. Yeah, yeah
and in comparison to the shuttle the
later the
systems what were they like in sort of
comparison of being there and having
being there because the shuttles are
smaller vehicle height wise and but it's
still a very powerful system and rocket
with the two solid rocket boosters and
in the main booster but what was the
main sort of difference between the two
but you could sort of see where well
this is still some pretty awe-inspiring
thing.
yeah I guess maybe the anticipation of
it with the fact that you've got the
vehicle attached to these huge rockets
back in the Saturn days you didn't have
a vehicle attached like you had the
shuttle vehicle attached to this
boosters
it was a short early off thing because
it lifted off faster and it entered
faster and it wasn't quite as impressive
as far as the the sound and the visual
fireball of it but there was also the
sense of of the investment, expense, the
risks involved it was it you almost got
even more I guess a sense of
appreciation for the crew and the people
who really was on the firing line
.exactly yes yeah I mean were you there
for most of the launches or it was only
certain points when you saw there it was
just a certain point we had a team of
people and I saw a good number of the
old Saturn launches and of course the
Skylab, spacelab business uh and then a
couple of the shuttle launches right
yeah yeah so yeah you've been there at
the actual front-end in the Assembly
Building when you actually actual
astronauts and they would come in they
would do they would go into the actual
Saturn V, the command module or into the
shuttle itself so what would they be
like what of all the people like who
were
the front end were they were sort of
them
like I say, what was the saying now the right stuff what would
you say they were the right stuff I'll
the other crew and awful lot of
the science and the technology specific
people, Paul it was at that time probably
the greatest gathering in our country of
skills and and expertise and and and
just plain courage those guys were
something else they were, they you know
the tail goes around a lot about John
Glenn who was died recently but he was
he was a great astronaut. Those guys they
would monitor their pulse rate and that
fireball fishing to ignite under them
John Glenn's pulse rate with a straight
line, unbelievable to me, unbelievable.
These guys get set up it and none of
them spiked on their pulse rates what
their reactions, they knew no fear I'm mean
they were test pilots, yes NASA knew when
they got them in the program that fear
would not be a factor. Yeah yeah anyone
like us is not quite the same
obviously you're going to sit anything
oh my god what's going to happen next up
yes am I going to make out of this alive
but to them it was just another day's
job ready I suppose. They were
awesome and I just I just held them in
the greatest respect and same time a
very human, Paul. I've stayed at that
holiday Inn down there with them I've
seen them throw each other in the
swimming pool and played like young boys
when we were working when our
liaison during the spacelab days with
the crew was a man named Bob Crippen at
that time Bob had not flown a mission
later on at one time he had the most
hours in space of any human being, that
was some time back but Bob and his
buddies when they would come from
meeting on the Arsenal at Hostal
Marshall Space Flight Center they would
announce
their arrival with a sonic sonic boom,
they would fly over our building and
we're hear the windows would rattle and
the big boom and we'd know an hour later
that walk in the door. Now that probably
violated every rule every space
everything but those guys were so
carefree, they felt entitled and they
doggone sure were entitled and that's
why they live their lives as that they
just had to be different or they
wouldn't climb up and get on top that
fireball. No, no I'd imagine so  that,
that's what really sort of sets them
apart from obviously others. Nowadays it's
much more seems health and safety driven
for obvious reasons and but there
you do look back and you think those
were days where people sort of, it's like
men were men sort of dayst for want
of a better word. Yes I think, I think
you're right it was in kind of just of
the right time and place maybe for those
of us that were in support roles but
maybe especially for men out of the the
ranks of the test pilots in the front
row of those people is where they drew
these special people that they called
astronauts. Yeah yeah did you get to know
many of the astronauts more personally
or didn't you get that much time with them
apart from just being on the training
job really.
we met on, we worked with them we were in meetings with them we had discussions
with them but as far as knowing any of
them personally away from the field, now I've
been down into Cape although these
guys that you know they they were known
to Bend an elbow every now and then
there was a watering hole down on a1a
down there there Highway A1 that was
their favorite place and we would go
down there and I guess I spent more
personal time with them down at their
watering hole when they would kind of
relax and let loose a little bit and
they were when you sit down with
them and talk they could be just like
anybody like the rest of us but when it
comes time to put on the uniform
that's what separate them, they were
people, think they changed and became the
astronauts that we knew, absolutely new yes no check yeah absolutely, super
men,  yeah yeah yeah okay
so you've been sort of you're working on
first Skylab, which Skylab was a
repurposed Saturn V, I think it was
going to be will be,  because they
cancelled the Apollo missions after
17, and it was going to be 18, 19 and 20
and really. They had the Hardware left
over but without much of a job to do so
then they said okay we will use this to
set up Skylab. So what was your role in
the Skylab project?
Well again the skylab has a flight,
the Skylab mission had a flight computer
that's going to get them up there, it's
going to control the vehicle and it's
liftoff and in this entry to orbit and
then control the vehicle itself in its
orbit but there was a separate computer
to manage all those experiments that
were in the bay, there was going to be
opened up and get a first look without
having to look through the Earth's
atmosphere. For some of those experiments
that was a first opportunity, a separate
computer controlled those experiments step
them through their different operational
phases, so we had two computers to
develop the flight computer and the
experiment computer and the ESA guys had
some of the experiments were ESA
responsibilities and the European Space
Agency and we worked with those guys a
good deal but and that was a long
mission, we had a lot of nice of mission
support during that time because Skylab
was up for a long time and we had to
maintain some status of support during
all of that tack right right so
obviously, now you've then went on to
SpaceLab, Space Lab was the manned one so again you would have been involved in
training the crew on the systems and how they were
going to work and I believe that we
talked earlier about the Apollo guidance
computer that that sort of ended up,
did that end up as part of the control
system for skylab, SpaceLab and the
sort of basis of the shuttle or was it
been sort of dropped off and then IBM
sort of took over it completely. Well it
was it was sort of our a adaptation, each subsequent phase was kind of
an adaptation of the previous phase, it used a lot the same control laws, a lot of the
internal logic but there was
modifications to all of that and then
additions of computer controlled stuff
for these Skylab and Space Lab and yes
we did they were called P.I's, principal
investigators but they were scientists
astronauts, right they were trained at
Johnson Space Center to do the
astronauts role to climb into the seat
on the fireball and they would train at
Marshall Space Flight Center to see the
computer interface what they were going
to be doing and interfacing with and we
would train them and I mentioned a
couple of names of Bob Parker, Owen
Garriott, those guys fit into that
category.
Right, right right so you end up working
on the shuttle and again doing the same
thing training part the the crews on the
system, so this is seven-man crew on the
shuttle there's a lot more people
involved and so there would be the pilot
and then there would be other people and
I suppose would be mission specialists
which would be brought on to do certain
things wouldn't there so your job would
be primarily dealing with the pilots and
those sort of people who are flying the
actual thing. Yeah the crew themelves
but also the mission specialists are the
principal investigators, the answer is
yes to that Paul but I I had a short
term on the shuttle, only a year or two
that actually worked on the shuttle
computer
right which yes I didn't get in as much
of the training and the crew interface
stuff but I was on the early stages of
the computer and software preparation
right right so  the astronauts
that came through but the most famous ones were
the Apollo ones obviously, did you
ever get to see any of those or meet
any of those. Well I met a few of them
they when they came to Hunstville either
for some special training because the
normal training we went out to Johnson
to do
I met them but again I never became
socially familiar with them it was
strictly a works which we would serve
you know and and and it never really
developed beyond that except as I
mentioned down it to Cape sometimes when 
we would be down it uh whatever their
favorite watering hole was. Yeah yeah now
Tennis was telling me that when you
first started working for NASA that an
obviously Apollo had been and gone by
that or was in its sort of latter
stages there and that you had some
relatives, I think your grandparents that
didn't believe you, actually have anybody
been to the moon and this funny enough,
still resonates around now and probably
even more so and if you've ever read any
of a comments on my channel, it's
probably half of it is people saying
we've never been there it's all a big con
and even though you've got all the
evidence to the contrary nowadays
but what was it like having part of
your own family thinking for you they've
never been there.
Well it has to do somewhat are with
where I was from out in rural area, the
local people they weren't as
sophisticated as a lot of the big city
folks and didn't have the the TV access
in some cases and but my grandparents
were like 80 years old
I was out of the house going to work every day and a lot of times when i'd come home
from work, I stop and they were at that
time sedentary people, they sat on the
porch and watch the world go by
and I stopped to visit with him and talked
to them and I tell them a little bit
about what I was doing not, a lot but
they never believed that we put a man on
the moon, even with me tell them that we
did and they would confide a aunts and uncles then that they didn't really
believe me and they were serious , and 
they never did believe you  till the end
They never they they didn't
ever did they never did they thought it
was a pretense they thought it was
staged on their TVs to fool the American
public, they had a little bit distrust
of government and that sort of thing
leftovers I said so that, so
that sort of distrust and that sort of
idea that  things were not as they should
be was really still was going around
even in that would have been what the
 late 60s early 70s yes yes and
that time frame we're talking about
there and again particularly in the
rural areas like I came from I'm sure my
grandparents were not the only ones that
did not believe it but they were the
ones that probably had some reason to
believe it because I was telling them
that it would have true. You work for the
company, basically did the job that you
thought you saw but you saw the Rockets
go - were they going somewhere I
don't know where but they're going
somewhere yeah but to them IBM meant 
nothing,
NASA meant nothing, to them it was just
almost inconceivable I guess because it
just wasn't what God meant to be or
something. Right now yeah it is
fascinating but obviously we all think
that we think of alike and think that
other people think the same and then you
talk to people to say well, no we don't
believe it or this, that and the other and
obviously they have their own beliefs
and whatever and how they actually get
to those beliefs but it still it sort of
stretches the imagination of people like
myself to sort of think how do you not
believe and then of course other people
would say
all your stupid too believe, exactly
exactly it's the world we live in it
yeah yeah I suppose so and obviously
even more so now with the internet
because obviously there's lots of ideas
floating around about all sorts of
different things so the  world is full
of conspiracy theories. So is there is
there anything in particular that you
sort of would remember from your career
and time at NASA, what would be your take away thought if you would say, God these is one
thing there I really thought was
fantastic what would it be well?
maybe all the fact that we were young,
most of us I would imagine average age
those guys was no more than 30 and
possibly in the high 20's, it was
young people and you know there was a
famous British mathematician named Hardy
that one time said that by the time
you're in your late twenties you're
incapable of originating math, you can't
do original mathematics because you've
already peaked but anyway it was a young
crowd of people and the work ethic i've told
Tennis before that there's another
friend of mine at IBM, we worked an
enormous number of hours there was a
stretch one time that we work 72
consecutive days without a day off and
those weren't eight-hour days either, no
we probably average 70 hours a week and
we just we just worked and that's what
we did is it working, the workday was
just about all day and we had the energy,
we were young enough to have the energy
I guess and maybe young enough to be
naive enough to think it was okay to
does that right but but at one time in
my group and I don't know that's not a
very positive thing, Paul but in the
group that  I worked in a with 15 or 20 of
us in this test
integration group there was something
like 14 had already gotten divorces, That
many it was a separation that was
unbelievable and at the time it didn't
dawn on us but in some years past and in
reflection it took a tremendous toll
were on the families involved
simply becuase you just separate for so
long? 
absolutely absolutely took you away from
the things that maybe you should have
been given a greater share of your time
hmm but at the time obviously you
thought well this is it this is the one
shot and we'll just give it all we've
got so, it's a two-sided coin you know
you paid a price for that but it was a
great experience and again at the time
you didn't attach all that much
significance but in looking back at if
you realize that you were very fortunate
to have been at that time in that place
hmm yes yes and or but obviously you had
the downside with the family bits but
the other side was that you were at a
unique point in time and if you were
single i'd imagine thats fine it's
more really the married people so that
when were you single at the time? ah no I
was married it a the time married and did
your marriage survive?  my
marriage survived that, yes there you go
so if you did you got both sides really,
you had that unique opportunity and you
managed to save your family life at the
same time magic there the family that well yeah. Well Kenneth  it's
been an absolute pleasure to talk to you
and  fascinating stories there and I
think that the viewers will enjoy this a
great deal and let's say thank you very
much for coming on board, I appreciated
Paul, I appreciate the opportunity I've
enjoyed talking with you and I've been
going hearing some of what you've done
and I'll continue to follow that Tennis
will keep me up to date, yes certainly
and it's been an absolute
pleasure to talk to you.
I hope you enjoyed watching this as much
as I did making it and if you worked or
do still work in the space or aerospace
industry or know someone that did and
would like to share their stories then
please contact me on the YouTube email
link on the about page, so it just
reminds me to say thanks for watching
and please subscribe, rate and share.
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