Brown: It's a very very common pattern and
not too difficult to spot. Although it's so
quick that you really are left with the
impression that the medium has all the
information and is giving the person in the
audience bit after bit and they are not.
He is saying very little and waiting for the
feedback and then throwing back. What you'll see
is far from it being all vague or saying
things that apply to just everybody, you'll
get very specific details being thrown at you.
So I'm seeing a pair of cufflinks with a
sort of a red jewel or something really
quite specific and normally the person doesn't
quite make it fit but then the medium will
keep on pushing and start to turn it into
something else, "It's definitely some jewelery
It's definitely showing me jewelry." And then
of course they're going to make jewelry fit.
"Well yes I've got some jewelry at home. That's
right." He's saying have a look in your jewelry
box because it's something that you have
forgotten. And the red cufflinks have been
forgotten. So keeping track of, well what was
the medium pushing for at the beginning.
One thing I saw was...
there's a dog. He is saying something
to do with his dog that used to sleep in
the hallway. And the answer sort of came
back "No." "Well it's something in the hall. It
could be a picture of a dog? Is there a
picture of a dog in the hallway?" And the
answer came back, "No, but I've just put up
another picture. I've put up a picture in
the hallway of the family" or something.
That's it. He's saying he doesn't like the
picture in the hallway. He'd much rather...
and the dog is forgotten. Actually started
off talking about a dog. Purely because of
what the audience member said, now it's
about a picture in the hallway. It's become
something completely different. But it looks
like the medium is just sort of fumbling
whereas in fact he is gauging everything on
what the person is giving him.
Dawkins: I imagine some people listening
will be saying to themselves, "Oh yes well I see
that but on the other hand, I was told a
story by somebody who was told as story
where the medium really did get an exact fit.
And I suppose the story there is stories
only get passed on on the very rare occasion
when they do get an exact hit. I mean nobody
goes around telling stories of failures.
Brown: Exactly. One of the first things you
learn as a magician is that, you know, you do
a trick but half of the trick happens afterwards
when that person remembers it and then wants to
tell somebody else in a way that doesn't
make him look stupid, or look like he's been
fooled. So things get exaggerated, in the same
way if you've had a great holiday and you
come back and you wanna tell everyone about it.
So these stories you hear are always deleted
and edited and twisted in all sorts of ways.
I heard a tale, thought it was kind of interesting,
of a psychic who was at a policeman's event.
Apparently it was a psychic the police had
used, although I think normally if a psychic's
are saying they've helped the police, but
either way she was at this event. And this
was being told to me by someone who was there
that the psychic spoke to at the end of the
evening. The psychic came up to this guy who
was a policeman, and said "Very nice to meet
you." and shook his hand. And when she shook
his hand she sort of stumbled back a bit and
rolled her eyes back into her head and said
in a sort of far off voice, "Oh you better leave,
Henrietta's cold. Henrietta's cold. She's
waiting for you." Then she snapped out of it,
and said "Who's Henrietta?" And the guy
was amazed becaus Henrietta was the name of
his car. And when he went outside, it was
snowing. So Henrietta was cold. Now, this
guy tells my friend, my friend tells me,
with that air of "How do you explain that?"
Obviously it's a lovely story and who knows
what actually happened but it's a great story
that's come out of it. But if the woman had
gone up to him and merely said "Apparently
you call your car Henrietta," which is the
only bit of information that was of interest
was that was the name of the car. Somebody
comes up to you and says that and you just go
"Oh, who told you that?" Presumably loads of
people at the event knew that, you know, he's a
policeman who calls his police car a name, they
presumably know that, so it's not a big deal
the fact that she would know that or might
have found it out. But because of how she
presented it, through nothing other than
showmanship, it made the difference between
a non-event and that would be passed over
and a massive event for this guy that has
presumably changed his belief.
Dawkins: And he goes around telling other people.
Brown: And he goes and tells other people.
Dawkins: During the making of this program
I've talked to a number of psychics and
palm readers and people like that who have
sort of done me. What slightly disappointed
me is that they had spectacularly bad results.
I mean I thought at least they would be good
at it and that they would sort of, get a reasonable
number of hits. And bearing in mind that what
they are is some kind of conjurer. I mean
if a stage conjurer scored as many misses
as these people he would be booed off the stage.
And yet because they bill themselves as
psychics rather than conjurers, paradoxically
they're given more latitude, they're given more
license to fail than if they were taking
rabbits out of a hat or sawing women in half
or something. So there a lot of paradox there.
Brown: Well this, despite the fact that extraordinary
claims demand extraordinary proof. So you'd
imagine that they'd have a much harder job.
The reality is they have everything stacked
in their favor. They tell you it's not an
exact science. Some of this may not work.
All I do is I get a sense of this and you'll
help me make that fit and if it doesn't
work then you know they make no promises,
for a start, which is very odd thing from the
outset. I don't know what they are claiming
if they can't make any promises. And then they come
out with various things and you make them
fit or don't fit and if you are not really
making them fit, if you are not playing
the game then you are blocking the energy.
It's your fault.
Dawkins: I did a couple of psychics who are
quite famous on television and things.
And one after another they gave up. They would...
What the first one started talking about my father
and they said "Your father in the spirit world
is very sorry that he didn't manage to say
goodbye properly." So I sort of strung her
along for a bit before letting her know that
my father is in fact still alive at the age of 91.
At that point she just gave up. She said
"Sorry it isn't working. The spirits aren't
coming through. I just have to stop."
Dawkins: And nothing could persuade her...
Brown: She had been making it up to this
point because what had been coming through
if it wasn't the spirits? If you don't play the game,
You'd think if it was real you would at least
be able to sit there quietly and they'd be able to
do it without needing any sort of feedback.
You'd feel you wouldn't need to play the game
as the sitter. But you do have to play the game
and if you don't...
Dawkins: One of the people I went to see was
a psychic who asked to have my watch which
he help in his hand to get the spirit vibrations
out of the watch, etc., and then he turned up
some tarot cards and then he went through
a really rather stunning series of misses of almost
everything that he got wrong. Got my, some elderly
relative beginning with the letter G, something
to do with the advertising profession, total
miss. I mean, no suggestion. Then he got an elderly
woman beginning with E. Well that was a sort
of hit because my grandmother's name began with E.
Brown: That's incredible! (laughter)
Dawkins: And it is the commonest letter in the
alphabet. And he said that she kept lots of cats.
And so I was able to tell him that she absolutely
hated cats. She abhorred them. It went on.
It was all total set of failures. And then I was
afterwards told at the end that he'd told
somebody else that he'd done really well
and that he'd got lots of hits.
And I think he believed it.
(laughter)
So there is an element of self delusion as
well as just deluding the public about this.
Brown: I think that, well, given that the whole skill
seems to be not about comforting people. I mean,
it's rubbish although they say that. It's about
getting hits. It's about hearing yes yes yes.
So it's strange sort of ego thing.
Dawkins: And getting money for it.
Brown: And getting money for it. So yeah.
So I think it's not surprising that that sort of
self delusion happens and that people after the
event will say "Yes that went extremely well,"
and shamelessly, you know, publicize themselves as
helping the police solve this murder and that
murder when they've done nothing other than
presumably rang up and said do you want
any help? No? I aided police. That is self
delusion but it's self delusion born out
of this sort of, I think just this sort of
ego need that runs behind it, yeah, is all.
Dawkins: How do people get started in a
profession? Do they come out of show business,
or does it run in families or what?
Brown: A lot of the sort of stage mediums,
successsul career mediums, come back
to Doris Stokes, who was famous a while ago
and even got a few around nowadays come
from show business stock and have learned
their skills undeniably from, I know the
teacher of one of the very famous modern
psychics who is absolutely taught them these
fraudulent techniques and is upset with him
for passing them off as real. I won't say
who it is, but, you know. The other route is from magic.
From being a magician and getting into the
area I'm into, just this psychological
mentalism it's called. But then realizing that
you can step over the line and pretend to
be doing it for real and there is a lot
more money in that. So yeah.
Dawkins: There is more money if you pretend
to be something that you are not.
Brown: Yeah. The moment you are saying
it's real, the moment you say it's real you're
tapping into something enormous in people.
Dawkins: And there's also the paradox which we
talked about before that you are then subject
Dawkins: to actually less scrutiny.
Brown: Yes. Less scrutiny.
Dawkins: You don't have to show that you've
got nothing up your sleeve because people
aren't primed to suspect that you have
got something up your sleeve. And so you
can have any number of magnets and wires
Dawkins: and things causing bangs and bumps
Brown: Anything you like.
and things which a stage magician wouldn't
be allowed to have because he's have to
conceal them slightly better.
Brown: You have to work a lot
harder when it's just tricks.
Dawkins: So it's sort of a win win situation.
You win more money and you have to do less
good tricks in order to win it.
