Good evening,
everybody, and welcome
to the Institute of Politics.
We are happy to have
you all with us tonight,
and we are thrilled to welcome
Mara Keisling here tonight
to talk to us about her work
and transgender equality
and everything she's
been fighting for.
Before the formal
introduction, which
Nicole will do I just want to
tell you about a couple things
we have upcoming.
On Wednesday we will be having
a conversation about free speech
on college campuses.
That'll be at I-House at 6:00.
And we have a pretty
spectacular panel put together
for that of some of
the leading experts
on all sides of the debate
on campus free speech.
Thursday afternoon at IOP we
will be welcoming the Counsel
General from Israel,
Roy Gilad, who
will be talking about Israel
today with Kate Grossman
our of director Fellows.
So before we turn
it over to Mara
I want to introduce
Nicole Morse who
is a third year Ph.D.
Student in Cinema Studies.
She's from Middlebury, Vermont,
which is a place actually--
I love Middlebury.
So you're used to our winters,
but that's prettier there.
Anyhow, Mara is here.
She's studying media production
by transgender artists
and Nicole will be
introducing tonight.
Nicole, without further ado.
Hello.
It's an honor to introduce you
Chicago Alumnae, Mara Keisling,
this evening.
As the founding
executive director
of the National Center
for Transgender Equality,
Mara has been instrumental
in making outdated government
policies more inclusive
for trans people.
Her efforts have made it
easier for many trans people
to ensure that their gender is
correct on government records,
has increased trans people's
access to necessary health
care, and strengthened
nondiscrimination laws.
Yet despite this
progress and despite
the unprecedented visibility
of transgender people
in the media, violence
against trans people,
especially trans
women of color, has
been described as an epidemic
in the United States.
Furthermore, the hard
won legislative victories
of recent years are
under attack with dozens
of anti-trans bills introduced
in state legislatures
this year.
In this climate, Mara's
work is necessary as ever,
and a quick glance
at her Twitter
reveals how busy she and the
National Center for Transgender
Equality have been.
From South Dakota to
Mississippi, to New York
and all across the
nation, they're
working toward a future in
which this nation is inclusive
of people of all genders.
This evening, Mara is here to
discuss the challenges facing
the trans community, how
political activism can affect
social and political change,
and the hurdles the transgender
movement is facing.
Please join me in welcoming Mara
Keisling, Executive Director
of the National Center
for Transgender Equality
back to the
University of Chicago.
Thank you, Nicole.
You know, this is the
first time I've been
on campus in almost 20 years.
I've been in Chicago a
bunch of times since,
but I just haven't
come down to campus.
I went to school
here 35 years ago.
I showed up in the first
couple days of April in 1979
to start as a
transferring sophomore.
And I remember the
dates because it
was-- so I grew up in
Harrisburg, Pennsylvania
about five miles from
Three Mile Island--
and it was the week that
Three Mile Island melted down.
And I took a train to Chicago.
Back then trains were a
lot cheaper than planes.
And I took a train and when I
got here I went to a payphone
to call my family and
they weren't there.
And it took me two or
three days to find them,
and I was starting off
at this new school, which
was a lot more intense than
the Penn State I had been at
and finally found them.
They had decamped to
Scranton, Pennsylvania
to stay with relatives.
So I was walking around today
and it doesn't feel familiar.
It's been so long I guess.
I lived in Woodward Court
for two years, which
is now the business
school, and its gone.
And my dorm room
overlooked the Robie House,
and the Robie house is still
there, but my dorms not there.
So I went into the business
school, thought maybe
I'd pick up some vibes
or mojo or something,
but I'm apparently allergic
to business schools.
But I'm really excited
to be back here.
I want to talk a
little bit about what's
happened in the last
16 years, because it's
really amazing what's
happened for trans people
during those years.
We hear a lot that the
gay rights movement
is the fastest moving
movement in history,
and we've got them be by a lot.
In 2000, I want to tell you
about some of the things
at the beginning
part of the century.
In the year 2000, there
was not a single attorney
in the country whose whole
job was doing trans rights.
There were some
great attorneys who
were doing trans rights, like
Shannon Minter at the National
Center for Lesbian
Rights, and Jennifer Levi
at GLAD and Phyllis
Frye in Houston.
But there was no movement.
There really was not
a trans movement.
To that point,
government policies
had been done without
keeping us in mind at all.
They did what they wanted to do.
We didn't have a voice.
And so some of us really felt
like we needed to have a voice,
and 2001 is a really pivotal
year for trans rights
because that's
when organizations
started popping up.
First, Lisa Mottet went and
worked at the National Gay
and Lesbian Task Force and
started their Trans Civil
Rights Project.
And then the Silvia
Rivera Law Project
started in New York and the
Transgender Law Center started
in San Francisco and then we
started the following year
in D.C.
But 2001, there's another
really important thing
that happened that was
very informative for me.
I was meeting with
Senator Robert Mellow who
was the Senate minority leader
in the Pennsylvania State
Senate, and we were
trying to get trans people
into a hate crimes bill we were
trying to pass and he said no.
No way.
If sexual orientation
is in the bill
I can give you 17 of the 19
Democrats, but if we put gender
identity and you get zero.
And then he looked
at me and he said,
but Mara, look on
the bright side.
Five years ago, I wouldn't
of let you in my office.
And that's a shocking
yet true thing he said.
It really was true.
Now, six to eight weeks
later, I should say,
we did pass that bill with
gender identity in it.
We got 19 out of 19 Democrats
and 13 of the Republicans.
Until last year when Utah passed
an anti-discrimination law
it was the only
time an LGBT bill
had been passed in a Republican
House, Republican Senate,
and signed by a
Republican governor.
But Senator Mellow was right.
Five years before
that or thereabouts,
I wouldn't have been
allowed in his office.
In fact, in 2004, I
was on a LGBT finance
group for John Kerry's
campaign for president.
And every month or so
they'd get some big deal
to come and talk to us.
And one time it was
Senator Edwards who
was the Vice President
candidate, sometimes
it was the campaign manager.
And I would get invited to these
because I was on this finance
committee and because I
was the Executive Director
of an LGBT organization.
They were inviting
all of us too.
The day that it was supposed
to be Senator Kerry,
mysteriously, I got
taken off of both lists.
They forgot to invite me.
I didn't even know
about it, except I
was having lunch with
another Executive Director
and she said OK.
You ready to go over?
And I'm like where?
What?
And she said, to meet with
John Kerry, and I'm like,
I don't know what
you're talking about.
And they were like
oh yeah, sorry,
the Secret Service can't vet
you in time so you can't come.
But they purposely cut me out.
That was in 2004.
I don't think Senator
Kerry did, by the way,
I think it was his
nervous people.
But we used to have a thing
called the flinch factor when
a politician met a
transgender person.
Did they seem warm
about it or did
they flinch when they did it?
I had people early
on who members
of Congress who
would sit and then
they would just sort of
uncomfortably move away.
I was sitting with the
state senator in Maryland
once with another
trans advocate,
and after about 15 minutes
he was like, wait a minute.
You're one!
You're one of them!
Oh my god.
You're one of them.
This is so cool.
And I'm like yeah, you're
not making it feel cool.
In 2005, we couldn't get Senator
Ted Kennedy to meet with us,
and we had to trick his office
into having a meeting with us
by asking the National
Organization for Women
to ask for the meaning.
And they asked if they
could bring friends
and they brought 40 friends,
or 25 friends representing
40 organizations, including us.
And then in 2007, Congressman
Barney Frank famously
took gender-- we had been
fighting for 20 years
to get gender identity into the
Employment Non Discrimination
Act-- we finally got it in.
He saw an opportunity to
advance it in the house.
It had no chance of
passing the Senate,
but he decided to
take that opportunity.
We asked him not to
and he did it anyway.
And so we set him on fire.
Not him personally, I
mean it politically,
but we set him and the human
rights campaign on fire.
They had no idea what
the movement had come
to in those five short years.
We had been fighting
with our friends
and it was finally paying off.
And then I want to
speed up to 2016.
We just can't even control the
two democratic presidential
candidates.
They are tripping all over
themselves to be pro-trans.
This is a good thing.
I'm not making fun
of them, but they
are doing pro-trans videos.
They are having
pro-trans positions.
They're fighting over
who is more pro-trans.
And who's been
pro-trans longest.
So that's really cool.
On the other side
of the aisle, we
have presidential
candidates-- the first two
Republican presidential
debates this year
both of them mentioned
trans people.
We've sort of made it.
So before I say this
next thing, remember
what Abraham Lincoln said.
You can't believe everything
you read on the internet.
There's a famous, inaccurate
quote from Gandhi,
that apparently was
really said by a labor
organizer in Pittsburgh and
not Gandhi, but this is true.
And some days I can
remember the person's name,
and he was a poet
and labor organizer,
by the way, which
is kind of cool.
And whoever it was who said
it said first they ignore you,
then they laugh at you,
then they fight you,
and then you win.
And for us, it's been
more like they ignore us
and we win, then
they laugh at us
and we win, and now they're
fighting us and we win.
And now, all hell is
about to break loose
on transgender people.
The next two or three
years are going to be ugly.
They're going to
be pretty bloody,
but it's because we're winning.
And that's really
hard for trans kids--
an 8-year-old to be
sitting in school saying,
well, at least we're winning.
And yes, everybody
is disrespecting me,
and I'm not allowed to use
the bathroom in school,
but heck, we're winning.
Obviously, that doesn't
matter to the 8-year-old
or the 8-year-old's
parents, but it really
is just unbelievable that
the forces against us--
most of whom are former
marriage equality opponents who
are still trying to prove their
relevance and their fundraising
prowess.
There is one particular
organization, the Alliance
Defending Freedom, which
has like 50 attorneys
and they're going to every
school district in the country
and telling schools
don't help trans kids.
Don't accommodate trans kids.
We'll support you.
We'll fight your legal battles.
And I can't for the
life of me figure out
what it is other
than they're trying
to prove that they're relevant.
But picking on kids is
just really outrageous.
Let me back up and tell
you how we got here--
how we got to be winning.
Our movement has
been very assertive
and has taken a real
sort of manifold approach
where we're trying
everything all at once, where
we have a litigation strategy.
And the litigators who
do work in organizations
like Lambda Legal and
the ACLU and the National
Center for Lesbian Rights and
the Transgender Law Center
are phenomenal.
They've been just winning
all sorts of stuff
with the litigation strategy.
And then we have a legislative
strategy, which has stalled.
I don't know if you've noticed,
but the U.S. Congress-- yeah.
We've had a federal
administrative policy effort,
which has been phenomenal.
We've had somewhere
between 90 and 100
policy wins during
this administration.
I'm totally a
nonpartisan person,
and I don't care
who wins elections.
I do like saying that, because
obviously I do personally care,
but we don't support
candidates or anything.
But I can tell you objectively
that President Obama has
been the best president
for trans people.
And no one is in second place.
And all he's done is tell
administrative agencies,
it's OK to do good trans work.
We don't have to
be afraid of it.
He has not, as far as I know,
been personally engaged at all.
Although, when I got to meet
Michelle she said to me,
I'm so sorry.
I know we're not doing
enough trans stuff.
We're going to get it done.
We're going to get it done.
We'll do more.
We'll do more.
And then she talked about
a veterans thing, which
I was surprised she knew about.
So I was very excited.
But it's been really amazing,
and the public education
has been amazing.
I look at trans work as being
in three Venn diagram circles.
And if I could go to my
imaginary chart here,
this circle is policy change.
And that's really where our
organization mostly works.
And in this red circle
over here-- see,
now I'm assigning colors-- I
have actually never assigned
colors before.
This one is public education.
And then the green
one down here is
services to trans people
and emerging trans people.
All three of these
are really important.
We mostly do this
one and this one.
We don't do a lot
of direct services
other than responding
to people's questions.
And I want to pull up
something in a second.
So we've been
winning the policy.
We've been winning
the public education.
The last two years have
been almost bizarre
public education-wise
and public media-wise.
And it hasn't been
one particular thing.
It hasn't been Caitlyn
Jenner or Laverne Cox.
They have been so important.
I don't mean to
diminish their roles.
But it's just been a
lot of trans people
doing a lot of really great
work-- public speaking,
and speaking to the
local TV stations,
and speaking to their
local newspapers.
And that's really paying
off, and I know a lot of us
are seeing that as
the next big thing
over the next couple of years.
We really want to try to
increase the spokespeople,
increase the breadth
and diversity
of the spokespeople we use, get
a lot more parents involved.
Parents are just
awesome spokespeople,
but also get, where
possible, some kids involved.
That's always a dicier
thing, because you just
have to be very
careful about what
you put a kid through that will
be on the internet forever.
And most parents smartly are
apprehensive about putting
their kids forward that way.
But we want to get more people.
We want to get more trans
masculine identified people.
Forever, the public
and the media
has thought about trans
people as being people
like me and Caitlyn Jenner.
People who are
worth $100 million.
No, I'm kidding.
I have no idea what she's worth.
I do know what I'm
worth, roughly.
And it is roughly $100
million less than that.
But we're just doing this
amazing public education,
and now we're facing backlash.
And it is wonderful and
horrible and an opportunity
and a crisis and some folks
are going to get hurt.
And we're going
to make progress.
Your mayor, when he was at
the White House famously said,
no good crisis should go
un-used, or something.
And so we are taking this.
We have four things
going on, if you go
to the second chart over here.
We have four things
going on right now.
I better get back
to the microphone
or I'll get yelled at.
The chart might as well be here.
It doesn't have
to be back there.
It's imaginary.
So on the one hand, we
have these really bad state
legislative bills
that are showing up.
Basically some right wing
extremist organization alliance
defending freedom is
finding dupe legislators
in a bunch of
states to introduce
these really horrible bills.
And they're all
slightly different,
trying to try different things.
They're just warming up.
And they're trying
different things.
And we've been able to beat
them-- we collectively, not
just our organization,
though we've certainly
helped and tried to help.
But then also there's a
zillion school districts
that are on fire right now.
There are a couple
dozen that are
in really, really bad
conflict over trans students.
And then there's hundreds
and hundreds of other school
districts who have
done the right thing
and hundreds of others who
have done the bad thing.
And that's got to work itself
out over the next few years.
And we're all
trying to figure out
how to get the resources
to the parents who
have these kids, so we can
to fight those battles.
And in the third place
where we have battles
is ballot initiatives.
We think there will
be ballot initiatives
in about three major
cities this year,
plus it looks
increasingly likely
that Washington state will
have a ballot initiative.
By the way there is--
is that my signal?
Oh.
OK.
The signal person was
moving, and I'm like,
we didn't talk about
what moving meant.
I don't know what I was talking
about-- ballot initiatives.
So we think there's going to be
a big one in Washington state.
We thought there was going
to be in one in California,
but they weren't able to
collect up the signatures.
We don't know for sure that it
will be in Washington state,
but that could be a $5
million to $7 million problem.
And the entire trans
movement runs on about half
that nationally,
so we don't really
have any idea what
we're going to do there.
We now have presidential
candidates taking shots
at trans people
around bathrooms.
Sometime in the next few months
the Department of Defense
is going to release its
report outlining how
transgender people can serve.
And Bernie and Hillary
are going to like
you're damn right trans
people should serve.
This is great.
And the republicans
are going to be
like, the military is no place
for social experimentation.
These people are sick.
And we'll win.
I'm very optimistic
about us winning,
but the things that trans people
and particularly trans kids
are going to have to hear
is just pretty opprobrious.
We're winning.
We're beating these
bathroom bills.
None of them have
gotten past us so far.
We had the closest call
yet in South Dakota.
Who knows about this
in South Dakota?
Holy crap.
I said that and
it's being recorded.
I'm sorry.
We had a really close
one in South Dakota.
This bill which would've
required transgender students
to use the bathroom at school
according to their chromosomes.
And for those of you who
remember being a child,
you always knew exactly
what your chromosomes
were because you had been
tested multiple times.
There's this sort of
misunderstanding about sex
that everybody is
either XX or XY.
I was going to say or XO--
that's the huggy people.
XX or XY.
But the truth is there's
10 or so other variations,
and not everybody who-- I
don't know which word to use--
identifies as male
or is seen as a male,
has the chromosomes
you'd expect.
So this is like a
really stupid thing
and if you ask any of the
parents of trans kids,
they'll be like, how
am I supposed to know?
And we saw a bill get introduced
and then withdrawn in Louisiana
last week that really
would have caused
a genital check at schools.
I just don't think anybody
has thought through this stuff
clearly.
Well, we won in South Dakota.
I think the movement
got to the governor
and basically said why would
a state government that always
talks about local
control of schools
decide to control
schools in terms
of who uses which bathroom?
And the governor bought that,
and he met some trans people.
And it was humanized to him,
and so he vetoed the bill.
And then the next day, they
took it up to override the veto
and they failed, which was
the closest we've ever come.
The one I'm a little
worried about,
honestly, is North Carolina.
Charlotte City two
weeks ago or last
Tuesday maybe, yeah, last
Tuesday or the Tuesday
before that, passed a local
ordinance public accommodations
anti-discrimination law.
And the night before it
passed the governor was
like, if you people do
this it's outrageous
and there will be predators
in the women's room
and little girls
are in danger, and I
will demand legislative action.
So they passed it,
and the next day
the Speaker of the
State House said
this is an outrageous
overreach and we
must have state legislation.
And then late in the week the
President of the Senate said
ra-ra-ra-ra-ra.
And so their session
starts April 25th
and we're starting with
the governor, the Speaker
of the House, and the President
of the Senate demanding
legislation.
So that's nice.
So that's a challenge.
I'm an optimist.
That one looks pretty hard and
the North Carolina legislature
has just been a
national embarrassment
for the last few years, so
I would expect nothing less
of them.
But we're getting this done.
We're almost at the point now
where trans people everywhere
can get the ID
documents they need.
Most of you all who aren't
trans identified just
don't think much about
what gender marker is
on your driver's license,
or by the way, why
there is a gender marker
on your driver's license.
The only reason it's
there is because there
didn't used to be
photos, and then
they never got around
to taking it off.
And now the federal government
mandates it because, again, it
was before we came around-- our
movement and our organization,
and we weren't
there to fight that.
But we'll get that
dealt with too.
And then we've
been working really
hard to eliminate
health care disparities,
in particular,
health care insurance
exclusions for transition
related surgical care.
15 years ago there
were no plans.
Every now and then
a trans person
could dupe an insurance
company or slip one by.
I don't mean that
there was fraud,
I just mean they
got away with it.
But then everybody
tightened down,
and so our lawyers
have gone after them.
We've won legislatively.
There is an anti-discrimination
provision in the Affordable
Care Act called section 15-57.
So we're winning that.
Things are actually looking,
in general, really good.
We're on an upward trajectory.
But right now we're
plateauing and about
to run into this
bathroom brick wall.
And we see it as an opportunity
and to have a bathroom
conversation with America,
because everybody in America,
including me, has
been saying, let's
talk about public bathrooms.
It is, if I can say,
totally freaking annoying,
because there is not a
single actual human being
in the United States who
is saying to themselves,
every time I go
into the bathroom,
all the wrong people are there.
Right?
It doesn't happen.
It's not a thing, but somehow
this Alliance Defending Freedom
and these other groups
have said, oh yeah,
and they use language like
big, burly, trans women
will follow young girls
into the restroom.
And it's really terrifying
in a demagoguery kind a way
for parents to hear that.
And it's going to take us
a while to educate past it.
We will educate past
it, and in the meantime,
we have to have this
conversation with America
about what bathrooms
mean to us, who
we are, and about
our identities,
like non-binary
identities, identities
that might not fit perfectly
into a men's or a women's room.
But last thing I'll
say and then I'm
just going to pull
over for questions,
I want to tell you what public
restrooms mean to trans people.
Because I don't think
anybody but trans
people really understand that.
If I am a 10-year-old
in middle school--
or would I be a 10-year-old
in elementary school.
I'd be a 10-year-old
in elementary school.
If I am told I can't
use the girls room,
I can't use the boy's room.
It's not like I'm uncomfortable
using the boy's room.
I can't do it.
If I did it I would be
susceptible to all sorts
of bullying and
violence and things,
so if I can't use
the right restroom,
I can't usually go to school.
And if I can use the
right restroom at work,
I can't have a job, and
I can't go to the mall
if I'm not allowed to
use the right restrooms.
And I don't know why they're
going after us on this other
than it seems like an
easy target to them.
It isn't going to be an
easy target for them.
We are going to
work our butts off.
And exact a tremendous
price out of them.
They just think this is
a helpless, small portion
of the population
they can bully around.
And we're going to-- I mean this
policy wise-- kick their teeth.
And we will walk out the
other side with America
better educated and none
of these laws actually
on the books.
But I think some of them are
going to slip by initially
and we're going to have to fight
to get them taken away, again,
with litigation, with
administrative advocacy,
with political work,
and public education.
So I'm so excited to be here.
I'm so happy to
answer any questions.
Let's talk.
And who is the person
with the microphone?
Hi.
Oh, sorry.
Hello.
So how do you want
your questions?
Find people who want to ask them
and then I will answer them.
I didn't mean that
to be sarcastic.
I'm very casual.
Hi.
Hi.
I remember the bathrooms
in Rickert and Flint
as being very
different, by the way,
but we can talk about that--
We had coed bathrooms in Flint.
Yeah, that's right.
That's right.
Were either of you in
upper Flint when I was?
I was in Rickert.
I was.
When I was there?
Yup.
Who are you?
[INAUDIBLE]
Oh hey.
How are you?
You haven't changed
as much as I have.
[INAUDIBLE] just
like we had back home
when we were growing up.
Yeah, except when it was
parents weekend or something
we had to put the signs back
up, and then we didn't really.
[INAUDIBLE]
Yeah.
So the question I
wanted to ask you was I
think that the bathroom
issue, like you said,
would probably be
much easier to tackle.
Would you mind speaking for a
few minutes about the locker
room issue in schools?
Yeah.
So there's a lot of
trends intersecting here.
So first of all, and I'm
sorry I mentioned this
to you guys earlier, but
one of the cultural things
in the United States that's
happened over the last 50 years
is we've decided to
make good on this idea
that public education
was for all kids.
And so we started knocking
down segregation--
haven't done a
great job at that.
We started knocking
down barriers
to people with
disabilities, with IEPs
and assistive technology, etc.
So when trans kids came
around, most schools instinct
was just to say oh
well, more students we
have to accommodate.
And maybe they
grumbled about it,
but they knew they had to do it.
And with trans kids
it's really easy,
because all you
have to do is just--
the only accommodation is
keep the adults out of it
and the kids are fine.
But another trend that's
happening in schools
is locker rooms are
becoming more private.
And that trend will
accelerate dramatically
over the next few
years, partially
because of trans
people, but also
partially because the way-- I'm
not a child-raising expert--
but the way our kids
are being raised now,
they are apparently
morbidly afraid of-- they
are changing less in
front of each other
anyway for lots of reasons.
And they're not used to it,
and they think it's outrageous,
and more and more schools are
starting to accommodate that.
Trans people, the
ones I know, have not
been looking for
exciting places to show
other people their genitals.
But if you don't allow a kid
to use a locker room at school
it means maybe they
can't do phys ed.
They don't do showers in phys ed
in almost any schools anymore,
apparently, which I vote for.
I mean, I vote for no showers.
That was just horrible.
And I think that that trend is
going to accelerate, partially
because of trans students.
You do things like you
wear shorts, you know,
and trans kids are not
waving their genitals around.
I don't know how to
else to say that it.
It isn't happening.
You know, trans kids,
for the most part--
I know there's always outliers--
are actually genuinely very
modest.
We as trans people
often say when
it comes to locker
rooms and bathrooms,
we're more afraid of
you than you are of us.
Now, again, that's not
true of all people.
But again, has anybody
ever heard of trans kids
exposing themselves to other
kids in the locker rooms?
It doesn't happen.
But if they can't
be on sports teams,
or if everybody knows
they have to use
the bathroom in the nurse's
room to change, and stuff,
it sets them aside.
It sets them up for
ridicule and bullying.
And it's just not
OK, and we have
to come to an
accommodation about it.
If I may, I think
the big bugaboo
is keeping people, parents,
from listening to sort
of ignorant rhetoric out there.
You get the Ted Cruz's of
the world sort of talking
about the Renee Richards model.
Here's a man who
has transitioned
to be identified as a woman
going in and playing lacrosse
or field hockey of some
such thing, women's tennis,
and so I'm just
I'm wondering how
worried you are that
this kind of thing
is going to be put
in front of you
as something that
once you progress.
It will be put in front of us,
and may slow us down a little.
We'll get through it.
It's kids playing
games, for gosh sakes.
And most schools get that.
We do have more of a
problem with locker rooms
than bathrooms, so it may be
a strategic point on my part
to focus more on the bathrooms
than the locker rooms.
But we'll win the
locker rooms too.
Thanks.
I just wondered if you're
making any common cause
with other groups of people
that need bathrooms not
to be so divided, like
anybody that has to attend
to anyone else in the bathroom.
It's not always the same gender.
Yeah, screw them.
No, I'm kidding.
[INAUDIBLE]
Yes.
There are several places where
we're advocating model policies
around things, and it's
a little disingenuous
because our model
policies for most things
are actually what's a
model for right now.
So there's a politic
science concept
called the Overton Window, which
is the stuff that candidates
can support without
seeming too extreme.
And what we're
seeing now is a break
that used to be
enforced by elites
and now it's being enforced by
random people on the internet.
And so there's a lot more
play, so it's now apparently
acceptable to show up at a
political rally wearing a KKK
t-shirt, where when I was coming
up you just wouldn't do that.
So a lot of bad things
happened because
of this, but a lot of good
things happen about it too.
And one of the ways in which
we have several levels of model
policy is we are both trying to
increase the number of gender
neutral restrooms
while at the same time
we are trying to allow access
to people based on their gender
identity.
The idea of gender
neutral bathrooms
is not just a good
one, it's now built
into the concept
of universal design
for buildings when you build
a building you try to build it
for everybody, and gender
neutral bathrooms are really
great for parents who have small
kids with them, for people who
aren't trans identified
but might have a gender
expression that causes
alarm usually in the women's
room, people with
disabilities, as you said,
who may have attended
care, so there's
an understanding that gender
neutral bathrooms are actually
very helpful for lots
of different people.
So in Washington D.C. they
instituted a regulation now
like seven years ago that
all single use bathrooms
had to be gender neutral.
And Starbucks, the
very first day,
changed all of their bathrooms
to gender neutral in their 52
restaurants and nobody noticed.
You know, it's not like
people are like what?
What?
You know, people
don't notice that.
But at the same time, we
have to be-- I personally
don't think in my lifetime there
will be no gendered bathrooms.
So until then we have
to win access for people
according to their gender
identity and a big challenge
we have right now is
framing it not as a choice.
It isn't a choice that
the 8-year-old trans
girl uses the girl's room.
She doesn't get to
choose whether she uses
the boys or the girls room.
I'm developing now
a theory that I
call the Ruckus Theory,
like most people,
most trans people
certainly, want
to use the bathroom that causes
the least amount of ruckus.
And that's hard for people who
have a non-binary or a gender
nonconforming identity.
So yes, the answer to
your question is yes,
and I'll answer all things
yes or no from now on.
But it's also true in
a lot of the other work
we do, for instance, around
immigration detention.
We're working specifically to
eliminate solitary confinement
as a standard of detention.
We're working to eliminate
sexual assault, which
actually percentage wise
happens to trans people a lot
more often, but there's
so many other people who
aren't safe from sexual assault
in immigration detention.
So we always try to have
our lens on about who else
we're helping and
who else we really,
really can't hurt while
we're doing our work.
Hi.
Thanks for joining us today.
A question I have
is I was wondering
if you could speak a little bit
about the anti-discrimination
bill in Houston, the fight
around all the money that
went into it, and how
like trans people using
the correct bathroom was
used to undermine other forms
of LGBT nondiscrimination?
I know you said that the
trans movement doesn't
have a lot of money behind
it, but a lot of money
was put into Houston.
So I was just wondering
if you could talk
about those types of trends.
Sure.
So the HERO, which stood
for Houston Equal Rights--
Ordinance
Ordinance.
Thank you.
I was going to say
official and that
didn't make any sense--
would have protected
about 25 classes of
people including veterans,
pregnant women, and the people
who I shall inappropriately
refer to now as the bad
people wanted it dead.
They genuinely
believe people should
be discriminated
against if you claim
your religion says it's OK.
And the weak link there was
trans people in the bathroom,
so that's where they attacked.
The LGBT movement's
policy has always
been to pivot away from bathroom
talk, and we got clobbered.
I think we lost
by like 35 points.
So it was only a six
week campaign, which
is hard to get
momentum, but basically
the other people the
aforementioned bad people,
did an ad showing a man
lurking outside of a bathroom
in a public park and a little
like five-year-old girl goes in
and he looks around
and then he goes into.
And it clobbered us.
Nobody had been
responding to the media.
We've never, until this
year, done campaigns.
We weren't engaged in
the Houston campaign.
In fact, the day afterwards
reporters were calling us
and they were like we noticed
you didn't sign on to be
a member of the coalition.
And I was like,
there was-- I didn't
know there was a coalition.
We have this marriage
equality infrastructure
that has been pivoting to work
on anti-discrimination laws, so
a lot of organizers
and media people,
and they just were
doing this without input
from the rest of us
and they fucked up.
I say they screwed
up, sorry, but you
lose by that many points it
means your fundamentals are all
funky.
It means it wasn't
a tactical problem.
It wasn't because
you didn't reach out
to the right
neighborhoods, or there's
a lot of legitimate conversation
that in a city that 60% people
of color they really didn't have
any people of color outreach
plans, and that's bad.
But even if they had,
they would have lost.
They still should have,
but they would have lost.
And that was the wake
up call for everybody.
That was our wake up call to
not allow the marriage equality
movement to take
over that stuff.
And we're now super duper
engaged without any resources
to do it.
So that's fun
Hi, Mara.
Hi, Tobias.
So I wanted to know if you
could talk a little bit
about violence of trans
women of color, particularly
black women, and how NCTE may
be sort of addressing that
through policy initiatives.
Sure.
So last year was a traumatic
year for trans people.
We had-- nobody knows the
exact number-- but something
like 26 murders of trans
women in the United States.
And when you look at the
photos of the trans women
the first thing you notice
is all but one of them
were people of color,
and all but four of them
were black trans women.
We live in a country
where trans people
are more susceptible to
violence than trans people,
but also black women are
more susceptible to violence
than other people,
and young women
are more susceptible
to violence,
and low-income women are
more susceptible to violence.
So if you're a low-income,
black, trans woman
it's got to feel like a target
on your back half the time.
So that's what the problem is.
It's not an easy solution.
There's a whole bunch
of different solutions
about if you ask folks
in that demographic,
they'll basically
say there's no jobs.
So I'm economically in
a neighborhood where
that's more likely to happen,
I'm sometimes, but certainly
not even the
majority of times, I
may be engaging in an activity
that I have to to survive
that makes me more
susceptible to violence.
So we've done a couple things.
So we've worked
really hard to put
this on the Obama
Administration's agenda,
and there's a lot of activity
particularly in the Department
of Justice doing things like
there's a small agency called
the Community Relations
Service that any minute now
is going to release a training
video for police officers
and how to interact
with trans women.
We're trying to support
trans women of color efforts
that are forming
and speaking up.
And we're trying to get
the federal government
to study the problem.
And that seems like sort of
a weak ass kind of thing,
but we don't know how many
trans people there are,
let alone how many black
trans women there are,
let alone-- so I think we all
know that the murder rate is
dramatically elevated for young,
low-income, black, trans women.
We don't know by how much,
because nobody's studied it.
And if the federal government
hasn't studied something
there is no money
to mitigate it.
And so we've been
working really hard
to try to get the federal
government to think
about how it can do it.
And the White House now has
had four or five meetings
of young trans women of
color at the White House
to talk about the problem,
to talk about what the White
House and the
administration can do,
and to build up and boost those
folks who can then go back
to their communities
and say, you
know I went to the White
House, and here's what
we have to do to get going.
And so it is dramatically
un-satisfying response.
And I think all of us
are trying to figure out
how to do it better.
But it's not like anybody
has a great idea yet.
A lot of this is about
machismo, a lot of it's
about poverty, a lot of
it's about objectification
of trans people, so it's a big,
complex, messed up problem.
And we're all trying
to figure it out.
Hi, Mara.
Hi, Vanessa.
I think the last time we
saw each other was in Denver
at Creating Change last year.
So it's nice to see you again.
Thank you for coming.
You as well.
You've talked quite a bit about
the restroom and locker room
issues here tonight,
which is, I believe,
the next big looming
issue that our movement
needs to confront, particularly
on a legislative level.
But I'm wondering
what you think might
be some additional concerns
that the movement is going
to have to confront other
than restrooms and locker
rooms, that sort of thing.
I happen to believe it's the
issue of economic equality.
I don't believe you can have
social equality until you first
have economic equality,
and you can't have that
without employment.
So I'm wondering what
you think about that
and where you see us heading,
particularly legislatively,
beyond the restroom
and locker room issue.
So do you know what's the
single most important issue
for trans people?
It depends which
trans person you ask.
What we know is that
there are trans people who
they can't find a job.
That's the most
important issue for them.
And they're trans people
who just got thrown out
of their families or their
faith communities or their job,
and that's their
biggest problem.
So I completely agree with you.
I believe we can no longer have
a moral or an effective LGBT
movement or a trans movement.
And I mean that
moral or effective.
I believe we have an
obligation to fight,
but I believe that's
worthless unless we also
have an obligation to win.
So it has to be
moral and effective.
How about that glass of
water we talked about?
Thank you.
It's in your podium.
It's in my podium.
Thank you.
Cheers.
Or I could do a Marco Rubio.
He'll be speaking
here soon once he's
out of the presidential
race, which
apparently is any day now.
I think we can no longer have
a moral or effective movement
unless we also are an
anti-poverty movement,
an anti-racism movement, and
a pro-immigrant movement,
and a pro-disability rights
movement, pro-women's movement,
or pro-workers' movement.
Those are the things
that are really
impacting people's lives.
Not that we don't need a trans
specific movement anymore,
but it has to be with
those other things in mind.
The biggest problem
for trans people
right now is poverty--
for many trans people.
And it's poverty that's
caused by job discrimination,
or family abandonment,
or not being
able to stay in school
because of disrespect
or discrimination, and
we have to figure out
how to do that better.
So I agree with you.
Bernie Sanders was
here last week.
He said that too.
It's not true.
I wasn't here.
I don't know.
Hi, Mara.
I'm John Pfeiffer
from Chicago House.
It's nice to see you.
Good to see you.
My question for you
is what traction
have you seen from the
leading political parties,
campaigns rather, and
what are your greatest
hopes and objectives
for this election cycle.
So we are nonpartisan
organization, so for instance
my dig at Marco Rubio
just now was not
aimed in a partisan way.
It was aimed in a he's quickly
becoming a loser kind of way.
And I mean that in an
objective nonpartisan way.
I would be satisfied with
everybody leaving us alone.
You know, the truth is I think
there are some candidates--
and I could identify
them who I think
would be better for our
work and what we still
need to do for trans
people than others.
Some of them I would be
disappointed in, some of them
I might be surprised
in a good way.
But the number one factor
in our federal work
that I'm looking at
right now is what happens
in the presidential election.
The Republican National
Committee in January
did a resolution
on asking states
to pass bad bathroom bills--
these bathroom attack bills,
genital check bills for kids.
So that's pretty
messed up, and it just
is true, whereas you
know, honestly, the two
democratic candidates are just
tripping all over each other
to be pro trans, which is good.
I think they both
genuinely are pro trans.
I would just hope that the
people who don't like us
leave us alone,
and then they lose.
But I don't always
know who that is.
And I'll tell you we're
at the end of the time
where we can get all of our
work done with just Democrats.
It's never been true that we
could always just do that,
but we're getting
down to states trying
to pass state
policies that we won't
be able to do unless we
understand that Republicans
have to be part
of our family too.
I am frustrated as all get
out at how trans people are
treating Caitlyn Jenner.
She said some really
messed up things,
but what I know is over the
next five, 10 years a lot
of prominent trans people
are going to come out,
and that's who the media's
going to want to cover.
And there's going to be some
governors or congresspeople
or whatever.
There haven't even really
been that many gay governors,
but there could be some.
We know of trans
state legislators who
are deeply closeted, who
have come up to some of us
at various times and
said you know, I'm trans,
but I want to run
my career out first.
Some of these people
will start coming out
and they won't all have
political philosophies
or approaches or presentations
that keep us all happy.
But, you know, Caitlyn while
she has a bigger megaphone
than other people,
she has essentially
the same political philosophy
as 45% of the public,
and I presume 45%
of trans people.
But we're-- I'm going to
get into next week's thing--
we're having a little
freedom of expression,
freedom of speech problem in the
United States right now on all
sides.
And we just have to figure out
how to do better about that.
I don't agree with
Caitlyn much, but she's
been undeniably good for us.
The only bad things
that's happened
is she's annoyed trans people,
but she's educated America,
so that's a net positive for me.
She's annoyed me.
I just don't care.
I hate calling people
like actual live people
out on camera.
I don't think I
called her out, right?
I did condemn all trans
people in all circumstances.
What else?
Any other cool questions?
Seriously.
There is one.
The reason we're
using the microphone
is we want the questions and
the answers to be on the tape.
Apparently it's going
to be some movie.
No, not really.
Nobody would watch this movie.
Oh look, it's Mara.
I just wanted to ask you why
you think that the marriage
equality movement and the
infrastructure built up
by the marriage
equality movement
so far has not been helpful
to the trans movement the way
we think the way it
ought to have been.
So It has been in a lot of ways.
I think that the LGBT
movement convinced
the media, the public, the
legislatures, the President,
and even our own community that
marriage was the single most
important goal of all time.
I think that was a shame.
I think it was an
important goal.
People wanted to get married.
It was illegal discrimination
that had to end.
It didn't have to be our primary
directive that used almost
a quarter of a billion dollars.
You know, the trans
movement has run probably
on less than $15 million to $20
million in its whole history.
And we just spent a quarter
of a billion dollars
on marriage equality.
That's just our side.
And it's not that I didn't want
us to win marriage equality,
it's that I didn't want to
do it with money flowing out
of other efforts.
Lots of new money came
in also, and by the way,
there were some big benefits to
the marriage equality movement.
America got to see us.
It built our political power.
So I think there were
some really big things,
but then what
happened was suddenly
when marriage equality was
won-- and starting like a year
and a half earlier-- there
were all sorts of LGBT groups
who had been really built
up by the marriage equality
thing that were like, holy crap,
what's going to happen next?
And we all started
having conversations,
what's after marriage equality?
It's not that different for the
trans part of the movement yet.
So we had all these
people who had really
cut their teeth on marriage
equality doing state campaigns,
like on ballot initiatives
and legislative battles,
and it was a smart
idea to repurpose them
and they got repurposed
towards nondiscrimination.
Last year was the
first year of that.
The Houston Ordinance was
the first real test of that.
And you know, it didn't work.
That doesn't mean
they're bad people
or they didn't mean well.
It just meant they were
listening to the message
people who all along
have been saying,
don't talk about bathrooms,
we can't win that.
And now we all know
that's out the window.
We have to talk about bathrooms,
because that's all anybody
else is going to talk about.
So I don't think they're
bad or incompetent
or messed up people
or a system, they just
also started on things like
the HERO campaign in Houston
without any trans leadership,
without any real understanding
of trans people, and that's
being corrected really
pretty quickly.
So I'm very hopeful.
And I would like a quarter
of a billion dollars, please.
Thank you.
Anything else?
Anybody have to get to church?
Hi.
There is this
particularly heinous type
of quote, "therapy,"
that's sometimes
called conversion therapy
or sexual reorientation
therapy where it's
trying to change
your same-sex attraction.
And there's been some
movements to get it banned.
I think successfully in
California and New Jersey
they got a ban for minors.
I think a few more states also.
Oh, I didn't know that.
Illinois too.
Oh.
Last yeah.
Oh, awesome.
Illinois also, you said?
Last year.
Last August.
Oh, cool.
So I was wondering if there
is much of a like gender
re-gendering movement, and
if you're doing anything
to fight it if that does exist.
Yes, so it's been
really interesting.
When we first started trying
to get the people working
on conversion therapy
and the therapists
or the psychiatrists who knew
about this to think about
including trans
people in the struggle
they were so-- the
actual definition
of conversion therapy is a
sexual orientation definition.
So they were like,
but this doesn't
happen to transgender people.
But if you've read
about it or you've
seen any of these
movies, a lot of it
really is about gender
and gender presentation.
And if you just
played football you
wouldn't be a gay homosexual.
So now the conversion
therapy thing
more regularly or
commonly is thought
to include both sexual
orientation and gender
identity.
And lot of it is sort
of the same stuff.
I am not an expert on
it, and actually, we
don't do a lot of work on it,
not because it's not important,
but the National Center
for Lesbian Rights
is leading that effort.
And some of the other
groups like the Trevor
Project and Glisten they
don't really need us.
And they're doing a perfectly
fine job without us.
So we're doing other things.
And we're going to win that.
There's been a really neat
thing-- the Southern Poverty
Law Center came
up with this idea
to use business anti-fraud laws.
And they're going after
therapists and psychiatrists
now saying, you're promising
to cure their children.
That has been proven by your
industry or your profession
that it is not
possible, therefore,
you are defrauding
these parents.
So we're going to put
you out of business.
Congressman Ted Lieu from
L.A. has introduced a bill.
So it's like Federal
Trade Commission stuff.
It's way outside of my
legal expertise, what
with not being a
lawyer and all--
though I did take
the LSATs in 1986.
So that's something.
So it's really important.
We're going to win that too,
but kids are still being hurt.
And parents are still
being knuckleheads.
Hi.
I think you mentioned
non-binary and gender fluid
groups earlier.
Can you talk more about those
subgroups and the challenges
facing them and if your
organization does anything
specifically for those groups?
Yeah, absolutely.
So just to make sure
everybody is up to speed.
Not everybody identifies as a
man or a woman, or boy or girl.
There is a growing percentage
of our general population
and of the trans
population that identifies
as lots of different words.
They use gender
queer, gender fluid,
non-binary-- that is a
binary of male and female,
and they're like screw that, I'm
outside of that binary-- Gender
queer, I don't know
if I said that one.
But there's a lot of things,
and five years ago we
did the national
trans discrimination
survey and 11% of our
sample identified that way.
Six years later, we did
the U.S. Trans Survey
this summer or fall,
and we'll have a report
out in early summer.
But we're now seeing that number
has jumped from 11% to 37%
of trans identified
people, most of whom
are under the age of 25.
And we see things like
very few studies that
are population-based studies
of adults in the United States
have shown that .3 of 1% of
people identify as trans.
But school districts in San
Francisco, Madison, Wisconsin,
and Boulder,
Colorado, and Boston
now have done studies
of their students
and how they identify
and 1.5% to 1.7% of kids
are identifying as trans,
and a big chunk of them
are identifying as non-binary--
maybe using they pronouns
instead of he or she pronouns.
And it is a quickly growing
part of our population
and we're trying
to figure that out.
So we always in any
of the policy work
we're doing try to think about
how our work will impact that.
So in these bathroom
conversations
we're having, we can't say
we agree with you, America.
Boys should be in the
boy's room and girls
should be in the girls room.
That's what we're saying too.
We can't say that
unless we also say,
but you know what, we all
know of people who don't fit
in any bathroom really well.
It's not just that they
don't feel comfortable.
It's that they aren't safe.
Maybe they're somebody who's
identified as a woman who just
doesn't fit visually
into the women's room,
or maybe it's
somebody who just has
a appearance, so we have to be
explaining non-binary people.
So it's a really core part
of our bathroom conversation
we're having.
And that's tricky.
It makes it a
trickier thing, but I
think it's going to make
it a more effective thing.
But all of our policies
are about this.
We're working with
IDs and we're trying
to get people to be allowed
to have the right ID.
And one of the big
challenges we're having now
is a lot of
non-binary people who
are coming forward and saying
we want an additional marker.
We want F and M and O for
other, or N for not sure.
I don't think that's one.
But there's N for-- I
forget what N stands for.
And what I want to say to
them-- it may be a non-binary,
I don't know-- I want to say
to them is no, no, no, that's
another intermediate step.
We don't need that.
We need to get gender
marker off of these things.
That will help
non-binary people.
That will help trans people.
It makes a lot of
transsexual people
nervous because they rely
on their driver's license
to prove that they
are now a man or prove
that they are now a woman.
But in the big picture,
it will be better
when IDs aren't about that.
So we're working
a lot on ID stuff
and on health care access.
A lot of the health care system
is set up as boys and girls
and based on a cluster
of parts, and we're
trying to get people
to understand that.
So we take it into
account, and I
think we're doing pretty well.
I don't think we're doing
good enough, or well enough,
whichever one is an
adjective or an adverb,
whichever is the one
I should have used.
I think I'm going
to go with good.
Thank you.
Nicole has a question up front.
Thank you so much.
I know that the term cisgender
has had a variety of proponents
and opponents, particularly
in the academy,
I know there's been a lot
of debate about whether it's
productive or whether it's
creating new binaries,
but I'm curious
from the perspective
of the legislative process.
Do you find it to
be a useful term?
I've noticed you
haven't used it tonight,
and I was curious if you find
it to be useful, effective,
or not really helpful.
NCT has never used it once.
It is not a term that anybody in
America understands except us.
It's becomes sort
of a shibboleth--
I watched an Arizona State
Senate hearing two years ago.
It was about bathrooms.
And 100's of people
on our side lined up,
and they would get up there
and they'd say, I'm a cis-ally.
And the senators were like, I do
not know what the fuck that is.
And it quickly moved
from cis-gender to cis,
and nobody has any idea
what we're talking about.
And there is not an
advantage in the world
for me to try to explain this
to a United States senator
or somebody in the
administration.
I personally, and keep in
mind, I am old, right, I'm 56,
and there's a lot of stuff
on my lawn and I want it off.
So this is one I don't see
an advantage to it at all.
I think it is a
nice happy word that
the over-privileged,
over-educated queers said
let's invent new words.
And they keep
changing new words.
This is what's going
to get me purged.
This conversation here.
And I just don't get it.
I don't think it's
a useful term,
and we at NCT because we're
educating the policy makers
and we're educating the
public, we can't just
throw out words and
bring in new words
like the rest of
the trans community
seems to think is helpful.
I get that the words
are really important.
I really do get that, but
you know this trans asterisk
thing was what everybody
was doing for about a year,
and then people like,
that is so insulting.
And it wasn't insulting.
It was gimmicky.
And so we also don't
believe that we
have the right to be controlling
the language trans people use.
So we are always
late-adopters of new words,
because we have a bigger
voice than most trans people.
We collectively as an
organization have a bigger
voice, so we don't want to
be making language decisions
for trans people.
But cisgender-- I don't get it.
I think I've lost this one.
So maybe we'll start using
it, but I don't get it.
And everybody can sit around and
say, oh, well we're reclaiming,
and we're oh-- I think that's
a little self-indulgent.
And that last couple of words
is what will get me purged.
Susan, you look like
you want to respond
to that particular thing.
I was a chemistry major.
I thought I invented the word
cisgender about five years ago
and I found out everyone
else [INAUDIBLE].
Yeah, but if it's OK, I'd like
to tell people it was you.
It was like somebody I
went to college with.
Yeah, it is.
You're right.
It's a chemical term having
to do with cells that line up
or something.
I think it's shenanigans.
Oh, and by the way, what it
means is non-transgender.
Do you know what another
word for that is?
Non-transgender.
We've had two people
call our office
and identify themselves
as non-cisgendered.
Honestly, I don't know
what to make of that.
Somebody said, I'm working
here in wherever it was,
for non-cisgendered rights.
So we put up on our little white
board, non-cisgender equality
now.
So I don't get it.
I don't get it.
And I know it's really
important to people,
but they haven't convinced me,
or the Arizona State Senate.
Anything else?
We have an 8-year-old,
and she just
wants to play girls softball.
And there was sort
of this problem when
we went to register her that
they wanted her school records
and her birth
certificate uploaded.
And I was really
challenged, because she's
not out and doesn't
want to be out,
and I really had no interest
in talking to the dad who's
in charge of the league
and having him go talk
to the board, which is the
other 10 dads in the league.
And so I kind of
struggled with what to do,
and thankfully,
her school district
allowed her to
register as female.
But her birth certificate
does not read the same.
So I kind of
struggled with that,
and we ended up uploading
something that didn't
say what it had said before.
But we're struggling with what
to do with legal documents
for minor children who may
still be figuring things out.
In our case, I
don't think she is,
but that could change at puberty
and other times later on,
so a lot of us
parent's are struggling
from the ages of
2 to 18 with how
to best support our children and
to help them navigate this very
complicated path of
requirements and adults
and judgment and
things like that.
So I was wondering if you
had any insights or thoughts
about that on how
to navigate things
along this kind of weird
legal and documented
route for children?
Yeah.
So I'm not an expert
on this, I will say,
but what I do know is
from reading studies
that the single most
important thing for kids
is family acceptance by far.
And that can help insulate
them from a lot of crap.
Second, I'll add for you a
little philosophy from my son
when a basketball coach was
being a jerky jerk face to him
and I had to explain
it to him, and he said,
so what you're
saying is people are
the dumbest people there are?
So feel free to use that one.
It depends a lot.
I have a friend who has a
16-year-old in the D.C. area
and they've chosen to
just change everything.
I don't know what the Illinois
rules are about changing things
like birth certificates.
I do know-- and
I'm not advocating
what is right for your
daughter is, I don't know--
but the sooner you change
things, the least likely
they are to come
back and ricochet
around later in her life.
I am not a child psychologist
or a child expert in any way,
I'm just somebody who
had a kid or has a kid,
but he's an adult now.
She's not going
to grow out of it.
And you know what, if
she does deal with that.
It's changing a
birth certificate.
It's clearly not a final thing.
Well, it's not
possible in Illinois.
It's not possible in Illinois.
OK.
I didn't know that.
By the way, we have
an ID Document Center.
Pardon me?
You have to have surgery.
Yeah, well, that will
be fixed someday soon,
but we have an ID Documents--
You can do it in
Illinois, but it's kind
of a policy [INAUDIBLE]
shenanigans.
The ACLU had a case
a few years ago.
You just have to have whats
quote unquote, "an operation,"
but there are doctors who are
willing to sign off on it.
Basically I called
her office [INAUDIBLE]
and say that hormones constitute
an operation, since the term
operation is
intentionally vague.
But there's currently
an Illinois legislature
that would make it
so people can just
change their birth certificate.
Yeah.
We're about to pass
one in Colorado.
So it'll change,
but again, I don't
know what's right
for your daughter,
and I'm not going
to give you advice.
So a high school friend
of mine hunted me down I
hadn't seen in 30 or 40 years,
and he has a 16-year-old trans
kid.
And he was on the internet and
he just stumbled across my name
and called me up and he's
like, we don't know what to do?
What if it's not real.
And I'm like, so the kid goes
to school for a little while,
and you know, the
kid's 16-- how do
you know that the
16-year-old who's not trans
is sure they're not trans,
or as I say cisgender.
Even if you do things like
change ID and change school
records, just that you can do
that proves it's not final.
If your daughter is one of
the people who un-transitions,
which is a teeny--
every de-transitioner
I know did it for economic
or exhaustion reasons.
They were just tired of the
discrimination and disrespect.
I don't know of anybody who's
like, oh my gosh, what was I
thinking?
And you know the rule with kids.
If they're persistent,
consistent, and insistent
and if they change
their mind, go ahead
and try to stop her or him.
I think also for
me it's less about
the insistent,
consistent, persistent,
because she's all of those,
but it's for me a struggle
of her not wanting to be out.
And I've been hearing a lot of
really great talk and advocacy
the last several
months, and a lot
of encouraging of us
parents of trans people
to tell their stories
and to be real
and to let it all hang out for
a while to have people know us.
And it's challenging I
think, for many because they
would rather just--
For most.
Not have anyone know.
Yeah, for most.
And just try and live your life.
And so I'm struggling just
as a parent of a minor child,
like she has no
interest in talking
to anybody about her situation.
She just wants to be herself,
as I guess anyone would.
And that's, by the way,
very smart on her part.
And so for me, the softball
example and registering
for softball was
really more I guess
I was-- some people might
encourage me to go maybe
talk to the person
at the top and then
I'm educating that
person, but then I'm
also running this risk
of outing my child.
And it could just
start spreading around.
And the coach is only going
to tell one person, who's
only going to tell one person.
Yeah.
It's a real hard call, and you
got to make it as the parent
until she's old enough to
do whatever she wants to do,
but for every Jazz
Jennings or Shannon Axe
out there, there's
1,000 kids who
either them or their
parents are like no way.
In fact, you know Shannon,
that's not her real name.
She's super out.
She's doing modeling,
and that's not her name.
And her mom uses a nom de trans.
That's what I made
up-- that term.
Not from chemistry either.
That's a good term.
Yeah, you've got
to think about it.
And I would say about
sports, by the way,
the National Center
for Lesbian Rights
has a really great
LGBT sports program.
And they are really at the
forefront of the trans sports
stuff.
There's a woman named Helen
Carroll who is spectacular.
Please join me in giving
Mara Keisling a very big--
Thank you.
