Watchmen is by far the most
complex comic ever made.
Does that mean it's the best?
Well, that's in the
eye of the beholder.
But what you can't argue about
is whether Alan Moore and Dave
Gibbons really put their all
into making this 12 issue Maxi
series.
It's almost like they were
offered an unprecedented level
of creative freedom,
and they were
told that they could
own their own work.
You know, like in most
forms of publishing.
And then, everything went wrong.
That is a bummer.
I'm Dave Baker.
Today on Total Nerd,
we're going to explain
how Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons
came up with the Watchmen,
why they put so
much effort into it,
and then how they got screwed.
[THEME MUSIC]
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Watchman has become
one of if not
the most important comics
in the Western canon.
That's due almost completely
to the two men who created it.
Alan Moore was born
on November 18, 1953,
in Northampton, England.
He grew up in a very poor area
without much access to books.
Nevertheless, he became obsessed
with writing as a young man
and began to publish poetry
and prose essays in a zine he
self-published called Embryo.
Oh, look at this cutie.
Love those bangs,
young Alan Moore.
Dave Gibbons was born on April
14 in 1949 in London, England.
His father was a town planner
and his mother was a secretary.
Struggling to break into the
comic book industry initially,
he worked as a
building surveyor.
Eventually he
managed to find work
as a letterer for
IPC Media, then
eventually transitioned
into writing and drawing
his own strips.
Oh, a young Dave Gibbons.
It's like 90s Superman mullet,
except make it Gibbons.
The early 80s saw
what is now referred
to as the British invasion.
Garth Ennis, Grant Morrison,
Alan Moore, Pat Mills,
Neil Gaiman, Mark Millar,
all highly acclaimed writers
from the UK were hired
by DC to write books.
Explosion of talent and
ideas heralded a changing
of the standards and status
quo that honestly is still
being felt to this day.
These writers employed
more literary executions
and told deeply
personal stories that
have marked a distinct
transition from the God,
we wish it was
still the Silver Age
style of writing that
Bronze Age writers like
Roy Thomas and Marv Wolfman
and Len Wein utilized.
In 1983, Len Wein
hired Alan Moore
to write Swampthing,
which is often
pointed to as a
key turning point,
not only in Moore's career, but
in the history of mainstream
comics.
The previous run concluded
with Swampthing's human form
Alec Holland being killed.
The twist that Alan Moore
instituted being Alec Holland
was never actually alive.
Swampthing was, in fact,
always a living swamp who
just thought he was a human.
Having written a few very
well-received projects for DC,
Moore submitted an unsolicited
pitch for a new project.
In 1983, DC acquired
the back catalog
to the Charlton characters.
The pitch would involve
a darker reimagining
of these Charlton characters
and a murder mystery plot.
The characters that Moore
would originally include
were Peacemaker, The
Question, Blue Beetle,
Peter Cannon Thunderbolt,
Nightshade, and Captain Atom.
DC's editor in chief, the much
beloved anchor, Dick Giordano
suggested that Moore create new
characters because, well, they
just spent a bunch of money
on all these characters,
and Alam Moore wanted to
either kill them or render them
useless more than
restructure the pitch
to make the characters
unique and not
infringe on DC's
previous treasure
trove of Ditko-created
superheroes.
For historical
context, the people
working in the comic
industry at the time
weren't too happy with
how they're being treated.
They were organizing
and they were having
discussions about unionizing.
Some people had
even gone as far as
to intimate that the reason
that DC went across the pond
and started recording
British talent
was to squash this uprising
of industry professionals.
However, ownership was
the talk of the day.
Everybody wanted
to own their work.
The Indie companies like
Aircel, Comico, and Pacific
were leading the way.
This allowed creators at bigger
companies negotiating leverage.
When asked about
the ownership issue
at the time of publication
at San Diego Comic Con,
Moore said, the way it
works, as I understand
it, is that DC owns
it for the time being
they're publishing it, and
then it reverts to Dave and me,
and we can make all the money
off of the slurpee cups.
Only problem is he didn't
really understand how it worked.
We'll come back to this.
As previously
mentioned, Watchmen
is one of the most
complex comics
ever created from its
recurring visual motifs
to its exceedingly
impressive display
of the elasticity of the
nine panel grid to the idea
that every piece of the comic
should be a storytelling
device.
Watchmen fundamentally
altered the way Americans
look at comics as a medium.
Moore and Gibbons took
the tropes and schema
of the traditional big
two superhero story
and infused it with gravitas,
humanity, and honestly logic.
They apply a gritty realism
to the vigilante aesthetics
that burst every
preconceived notion of what
comics in the medium was
previously capable of.
Upon its release, the book
achieved widespread acclaim,
so much so that it eventually
ended up on Time Magazine's 100
greatest novels.
Not comics, just books, period.
It's the only comic to
be included on the list.
The impact that it had on
the industry as a whole
was almost instant.
Along with the works of Howard
Chaykin and Frank Miller,
the tropes, storytelling
devices, and general grittiness
proved to be very influential
on an entire generation
of creators.
DC told Moore that they
wouldn't be making money off
of the Watchmen merchandise.
It wasn't in the contract, but
it was a gentleman's agreement
with Dick Giordano.
However, when the
book was released,
DC started selling button sets.
Meaning the iconic Smiley face
and other Watchmen related
buttons.
When he discovered that they
were selling these buttons,
Moore was furious, feeling
like he'd been lied to.
DC claimed that they weren't
merchandise, but instead
promotional pieces.
They were eventually able
to come to a common ground,
but Moore remained
suspicious of DC overall.
Unbeknownst to Alan Moore,
DC was putting together
a Watchmen role playing game.
Yes, that's right.
You can still find them.
You ever yearn to be
a chaotic bean eating
neoconservative
detective on a mission,
always nude, watchmaker?
DC wanted to fulfill
your desires.
Only problem is that they
didn't tell Alan Moore.
Oh, boy.
Yeah, that's right.
DC and Mayfair games didn't clue
Moore or Gibbons into the fact
that they were producing
these games, which obviously
rubbed Moore the wrong way.
They were able to talk him
down and regain his confidence
thankfully, and Moore
worked with Mayfair and DC
to make sure that
the gaming modules
of Who Watches the Watchman?
and Taking out the Trash
were in line with
the Watchmen canon.
Here's where things take the
downward turn that you've been
waiting for this whole time.
OK, so Moore and Gibbons
pour their hearts
into making this thing,
they change the medium,
they bled onto the
pages, pushing the forum
to new heights.
You'd think that they would
have been taken care of, right?
You know, treated with respect.
Well, that's not exactly
how it ended up working out.
The DC contract for
Watchmen stipulated
that DC would own the
rights to the Watchmen
while it was in print, and
then when it went out of print,
the rights, after a year, would
revert to Moore and Gibbons.
This sounds like a
fair deal, right?
It's not like
anyone else is going
to make new Watchmen comics,
and single issue comics
don't stay in print.
They just come out and then
maybe they get reprinted once,
and then they go away.
Oh, but, uh, but wait.
Watchmen is the highest selling
and most critically acclaimed
comic of a generation,
and it was pretty much
reprinted as a collection, or
a trade, or a graphic novel,
or whatever you want to
call it like instantly.
And those don't go
out of print ever.
When asked about how he felt
in a 2006 New York Times
interview, he replied,
I said, fair enough.
You've managed to
successfully swindle me,
so I will never
work for you again,
which is honestly a shame.
Adapting Watchmen is
something that many people
have tried to do over and
over again from Terry Gilliam,
to Batman screenwriter Sam Hamm.
Many creative people
have tried to crack
the nut of bringing the Watchmen
to the big screen, some of them
have even had Alan
Moore's blessing.
Very few of them, but,
you know, some of them.
When Gilliam was involved, Moore
signed over the option writes.
A, because he was curious
to see what an auteur film
maker would do with his
material, and B, money.
Mostly because of money.
Moore and Gibbons signed
re-optioing papers a few times
over the years
because they naively
thought the film would
literally never get made.
Things got so ludicrous in
the various drafts of Watchmen
that one of them even
climaxed with the comedian
and other superheroes
coming to our literal world
and fighting on top of
the Statue of Liberty.
Part of me is thankful that
I never had to see that,
and part of me
really is depressed
that I never got to see that.
As a bonus, check out
some of this test footage
from screenwriter
David Hayter in 2004
when he was vying to
direct the Watchmen.
This little stain,
was that bean juice?
That's right.
Human bean juice.
By the early 90s, Alan
Moore didn't want anything
to do with DC.
He wouldn't take their
calls, and wouldn't even
take money from them that
wasn't directly derived
from already in print works.
Gibbons, well, he
was less rigid.
He seems like he's a genuinely
easygoing type of guy,
and he continued to write
and draw stuff for DC
basically up until now.
Don't worry about
Alan Moore though.
He didn't end up
destitute or anything.
He just found a new home at
Image Comics, the biggest
publisher of the 90s, doing
runs on Supreme and WildC.A.T.S,
and even writing some Spawn.
Hey, Spawn.
We're those books
as good as Watchmen?
No, but they definitely
did pay the bills.
By working for Image, Moore and
Jim Lee struck up a friendship.
In fact, after the initial
gold rush period of Image,
Lee approached Moore
about writing his own book
for WildStorm.
That book was League of
Extraordinary Gentlemen, which
would later balloon into Alan
Moore's own dedicated imprint.
America's best comics
launched with great fanfare
and much critical acclaim.
League of
Extraordinary Gentleman
was the standout of these
books and would later
be adapted into a movie as well.
You know, that was
pretty sub par.
By the mid to late
90s, everyone was
aware of how much
impact Watchmen was
having on the state of comics.
Practically every
comic being produced
was this, but make
it Watchmen style.
DC reached out to Moore asking
him to write a sequel book.
He didn't want to.
They reached out
again, and were like,
we will literally give you the
rights to Watchmen back, just
please write Watchmen II.
He still said no.
The book was always intended
to be a standalone work.
He wanted nothing to do with DC.
From his perspective,
they burned him before.
They wouldn't do it again.
And then, the bottom fell
out of the comics market.
The speculator boom
of the 90s crashed,
and sales for
everything cratered.
WildStorm tried to
diversify their line.
They got into trading
cards, and even
sold a bunch of weird swimsuit
and lingerie pinup books
in order to just to
keep the lights on,
but ultimately, Jim
Lee was offered a deal
that he couldn't
pass up and WildStorm
sold to DC comics,
which obviously
made Alan Moore very happy.
Initially, he contemplated
quitting all the titles,
but decided to stay after he had
a conversation with Lee where
he was promised that none of
his checks would come from DC.
They would be coming from
a separate bank account,
and also, no one from DC would
ever have any contact with him
ever.
Moore wrapped up his
America's Best Comics line,
finished the stories
he was telling,
and then left WildStorm
to pursue other works.
Because of how the deal
was originally structured,
Moore managed to
finagle ownership
of League of
Extraordinary Gentlemen,
but everything else
would now be owned by DC.
In 2009, the Watchmen
would finally
make it to the big screen,
directed by Zack Snyder.
Ugh.
The film was released to
mixed critical reviews
and middling box office for
the budget of $138 million.
It only grossed $185 million.
Some criticism has been
levied against the film
that it's too devoted to its
original source material.
In many ways, failing to
breathe new life into scenes
because its fastidious
dedication to the panel
by panel recreation.
Others have maligned the fact
that while Moore was commenting
on the objectivists overtones
in so many superhero stories,
Snyder was exalting
them, missing the point
that deconstructing these
themes was satirizing them
not perpetuating them.
Ultimately, I think we can all
agree that the opening credits,
that's the best
part of the movie.
That slow moto.
Having been burned by
DC numerous times now,
Moore wanted nothing
to do with the film.
Even though he had signed
the option years ago,
he wanted his name
taken off the credits
and refused any money
that was due in residuals.
Opting instead to pass
that along to Dave Gibbons,
asking only that
Gibbons say, thank you.
Isn't that so sweet of him?
Ultimately, Moore
felt that Gibbons
didn't say thank
you quickly enough,
and the two men
had a falling out.
This is basically
the same situation
that happened with V
for Vendetta movie.
However, David Lloyd did say
thank you quickly enough,
and, you know, Alan Moore's
arbitrary timeline of thanks
was met, and the men
are still friends.
Man, being homies with Alan
Moore, it sounds exhausting.
Many efforts have been
made by DC over the years
to make Watchmen merchandise.
However, they were
stopped by Moore
or by various
legal entities, who
didn't want to deal with the
public backlash of Moore's
fans.
These DC direct toys
were almost produced
to celebrate the 15th
anniversary of Watchmen
in 2001.
They've only ever
been shown once
at San Diego Comic Con in 2000.
However, when the
movie was released,
the floodgates were opened.
Have you ever wanted
a Watchmen shirt?
Or a toy?
Or a beanie?
Or a prequel video game
written by Len Wein?
Or a buttons set?
Or a hoodie?
Or a mug?
Or a lunchbox?
Or a wallet?
Or another t-shirt?
Or another beanie?
Or a beanie shaped
like Rorschach's mask?
Or some Funko Pops?
Now, you get your
heart's desire.
Paul Levitz was the publisher
of DC Comics from 2002 to 2009.
Under his watch, there was a
never quite official doctrine
that certain lines were
never to be crossed.
He was very vocal about the fact
that the only way that there
would ever be a Watchmen sequel
comic is if Alan Moore made it.
And then in 2009,
Paul Levitz left DC,
and then in 2012, we
got Before Watchmen.
Before Watchmen is
a series of books
that DC published
telling stories
that happened before Watchmen.
Purportedly, Gibbons
was paid over $250,000
to just endorse the
release of these prequels.
Moore was courted, and,
well, as you'd expect,
he turned down the money.
The books feature a killer
lineup of creators Darwyn
Cooke, Brian Azzarello,
J. Michael Straczynski,
Lee Bermejo, JG
Jones, Adam Hughes,
many other very
talented creators,
and eventually they came out,
and some people liked them
and other people didn't.
Oh, look, more
depressing things.
Remember how DC had
Moore and Gibbons make
this book under the auspices
that the creators would own it,
and because of that, they
created a genre and medium
defining work?
Yeah, but that's lame, right?
Like, don't we just want
to see Dr. Manhattan
and Superman punch each other?
That [BLEEP] cool.
Well, that's what
DC and Geoff Johns
are doing right now in the
thrilling new Maxi series
Doomsday Clock.
Pick it up wherever
comics are sold.
Oh, god, it just keeps going.
No, literally, that's the line.
Oh, god, it keeps going.
And now we arrive at Damon
Lindelof new HBO series
Watchmen, the remix
of the classic story
that you've always
loved and respected.
I don't know.
When he was asked
about his thoughts
about what Alan Moore's
disapproval meant,
Lindelof said, I
admire Alan Moore.
Alan Moore is a genius.
He's made it clear that he
doesn't want any association
or affiliation with Watchmen.
I admire Alan Moore's
punk rock spirit.
Back in the day, if he was
told he couldn't do something,
he'd be like [BLEEP] you.
I'm going to do it anyway.
So I'm channeling Alan Moore.
I'm saying, [BLEEP] you.
I'm doing it anyway.
Which is just-- I don't know.
This is all just so sad.
Alan Moore recently said that
he's retiring from the comics
industry.
He said for years
that he'd retire
once the final League Of
Extraordinary Gentlemen issue
was released, and it has been,
so now he's done supposedly.
I kind of don't buy it.
You know, the whole, I'm done.
I'm bored.
I'm going to go make
some more stuff.
I just don't really
see him retiring.
It's more like he
just needs a nap,
like he needs a nap-tirement.
I get it.
The comics industry has
been terrible to him,
but also, what's he
going to do, write
another like extremely long
incomprehensible dense novel?
Yeah, that's actually probably
exactly what he'll do or not,
because comics.
Just when I thought I was
out, they pull me back in.
To sum it up, Watchmen
is a towering work.
You can not like it.
You can love it.
But you have to respect its
place in the history of comics.
The fact that the contractual
disputes and bad blood
between everybody involved
continues is just a shame.
Imagine what would have happened
if Moore and Gibbons had either
been treated a little
bit better or had,
you know, a god damn lawyer
to look over the contract.
Who knows what
great works of art
we would've gotten if everyone
hadn't been just complete
dicks to each other.
Well, what do you think?
Will we ever get a book with the
cultural importance of Watchmen
again?
Will you be watching
the new show
now that you know how messy
things are behind the scenes?
Are you going to be running
out to buy the new issue
of Doomsday Clock?
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