[LS:] Today is Tuesday, June 24th, 2014 and
this is Walter Hanks, and we’re interviewing
him in his home in Grover, Utah. And I’m
Linda Shelton. So, that’s as formal as we
get.
[WH:] Good. Good.
[LS:] And, and you can just begin by telling
us a little about yourself, Walt.
[WH:] Well, I was born on this ranch in 1938
and returned in, uh, 19—, uh, 1993. And
in the meantime I worked for the Forest Service
in Utah, Idaho, and Nevada as a forest ranger,
kind of because my grandfather was also a
forest ranger.
[LS:] Really?
[WH:] I kind of took after him.
[LS:] Oh, that’s terrific.
[WH:] I have his same name.
[LS:] Oh my goodness.
[WH:] And he’s, he’s my grandfather and
his father is Ephraim Knowlton Hanks.
[LS:] Wow.
[WH:] So.
[LS:] What a wonderful book to have.
[WH:] We’ve been, I’ve been here on the
place. Married a local girl, Shirley Chapel
in Lyman, Utah.
[LS:] Right.
[WH:] And we have six children. A daughter
in Boston and a son in Florida and the other
four are here in Utah.
[LS:] Oh, terrific.
[WH:] So.
[LS:] That’s a big family.
[WH:] Yeah, it is.
[LS:] Now, Walter Ernest Hanks was your father—
[WH:] Grandfather.
[LS:] Grandfather. And, is he the son or grandson
of Ephraim?
[WH:] Son—
[LS:] Son of Ephraim Hanks.
[WH:] —of Ephraim Knowlton Hanks. Yeah,
and my father was Urban Van Hanks.
[LS:] Oh, okay.
[WH:] He lived, uh, he was born in Cainesville.
[LS:] Um-hum.
[WH:] Then he moved here when he was eleven,
when his father brought his family here to
Grover so he could be closer to the Boulder
Mountains so he could be a ranger.
[LS:] Nice.
[WH:] My dad lived here all his life. He died
at eighty-eight.
[LS:] Wow.
[WH:] So we kind of stay at home.
[LS:] I’ll say. Well, it’s a beautiful
home.
[WH:] It’s, it’s um kind of a primitive
area. A lot of people don’t like to be too
far from Walmart, but—
[LS:] (laughs)
[WH:] It works or us.
[LS:] Well, I know a lot of people love to
come here—
[WH:] Yeah.
[LS:] —to visit and to see it.
[WH:] Yeah.
[LS:] It is a beautiful place. How wonderful.
Well, tell us a little bit about your childhood.
[WH:] Well, when I was a child growing up
here, we had, we had a ward here, or a branch.
We had about 130 members.
[LS:] In Grover?
[WH:] Just in this little hamlet here.
[LS:] Oh my goodness.
[WH:] And during the war in the late 30’s
and early 40’s they had—a lot of families
just weren’t making it economically. A lot
of them went to Geneva Steel in Provo and
our little town just disappeared. We’re
down now to about, oh, seven full-time families.
But there’s a lot of, uh, retirement people
here, coming from Utah, or Salt Lake.
[LS:] Oh, um-hum. Just for the summer.
[WH:] Yeah.
[LS:] Or do they just come for the summer?
[WH:] Pretty much for the summer. So, it’s
changed a lot. When I was a kid I had four
sets of cousins. I had, uh, uh, three aunts
and, uh, they all had a family and we all,
I must have had about eight or nine first
cousins here. We’d go to church all the
time together and play stick horses and—
[LS:] How fun.
[WH:] My older brothers, they’d play, we’d
play cops and robbers. They would have horses
and be the cops and us younger ones would
be the robbers.
[LS:] Oh.
[WH:] And we didn’t have anything but a
stick horse.
[WH:] So, the bad men won.
[LS:] Yeah, I’ll guess.
[WH:] But we had a good time. We had a tragedy
in the home when I was six. My mother died.
And so, and I, I’ve got uh, three brothers
and two sisters. And my oldest sister kind
of raised us. I was six. I had a little sister
that was, uh, she would have been two when
Mother died.
[LS:] What did your mother die of?
[WH:] Childbirth, and she had bad sugar diabetes.
She had to take insulin.
[LS:] Oh, so there was a brand-new baby or
did the baby survive?
[WH:] The baby died.
[LS:] Oh, dear.
[WH:] It was stillborn.
[LS:] Oh, how hard for your father.
[WH:] And all my aunts that I talk about,
talked to my dad about splitting us up as
a family. I was supposed to go to my, uh,
Wanda Allen, and my brothers were supposed
to go to Goodwin’s and another brother was
supposed to go to Reimer’s. They had this
all worked out and they came to talk to my
dad. He says, “No, you’re not. You’re
not splitting my family.” So he raised us
all. He was a bishop and our school bus driver
and our schoolteacher. And father and mother,
so he took care of us all.
[LS:] What a hard worker.
[WH:] Oh, yeah. He was a worker.
[LS:] Did he also have a cattle ranch to run?
[WH:] Yeah, this one here, yeah.
[LS:] Oh my goodness.
[WH:] Yeah, he did. He worked hard.
[LS:] Um-hum.
[WH:] And never complained.
[LS:] Um-hum.
[WH:] A lot of those years he was bishop so
that was an extra burden.
[LS:] Wow.
[WH:] But he did it all. He got us through
it.
[LS:] That’s amazing.
[WH:] I don’t know how good we turned out,
but uh—
[LS:] Now, where did you go to school?
[WH:] I went to school here in, uh, Wayne
County and in the different towns we had grade
schools in all the small towns. Went to Wayne
High School.
[LS:] Okay.
[WH:] Graduated from there. Then I went on
to Snow College for two years.
[LS:] Um-hum.
[WH:] Went on a mission to the South Pacific
Islands and Cook Islands.
[LS:] What a shock.
[WH:] I’d never seen so much water in my
whole life.
[LS:] Oh, wow.
[WH:] Wow. I was so intrigued. The sun would
come up out of the ocean and it’d sink in
the ocean. I’d never even experienced anything
like that.
[LS:] Had you ever seen the ocean before?
[WH:] No.
[LS:] Oh my goodness.
[WH:] No. when I got on that ship, we were
thirty days getting there.
[LS:] So, you went there by ship? You didn’t
go by plane?
[WH:] Not then. We came home by airplane.
We went through New Zealand, Fiji, and Hawaii
and back to L.A.
[LS:] Now, what year did you go on your mission?
[WH:] Uh, 1958, it was the year I finished
Snow College and uh, went on a mission.
[LS:] Um-hum.
[WH:] Then I got back in ’61. Our mission
lasted a little longer than we thought. We
was there almost three years, because new
missionaries weren’t coming out because
of Vietnam and—
[LS:] Oh. Um-hum.
[WH:] So, that was the three years and then
I came back and went to school at Utah State.
LS. Um-hum.
[WH:] Got a degree in Forestry.
[LS:] Um-hum.
[WH:] And then once I finished my education,
I acquired a forest ranger job. I loved it.
It was good. I drove in the hills all the
time. Kind of following my grandpa’s pattern.
[LS:] Oh, that’s great.
[WH:] So, it occurred to me that’s what
I should do.
[LS:] Right! Um, now, just going back a little
bit, elementary school, did you go into Torrey?
[WH:] Torrey, uh, I went where my dad taught
school. He taught school in Torrey.
[LS:] Um-hum.
[WH:] For I think it was two years and then
I went to Teasdale where he taught. These
buildings are not there anymore. They’ve
been removed.
[LS:] Um-hum.
[WH:] Then I went to Bicknell while he taught
in grade school up there. Then Wayne High
School. He was teaching in grade school. So
that was the first time he wasn’t my teacher,
was in high school.
[LS:] Was that a hard adjustment?
[WH:] No, no. Seemed to be—I always thought
my dad ought to cut me some slack in grade
school. I could be in a little bit of mischief
and he’d overlook it, but no way, he treated
me just like one of the rest of the kids.
[LS:] He rode you pretty hard?
[WH:] You bet. If any kid got hit with an
eraser, he didn’t forgive me if I was doing
troubling things.
[LS:] Um-hum. Um-hum.
[WH:] But he was always fair.
[LS:] Nice. He must have instilled in you
a respect and love for education.
[WH:] Um-hum.
[LS:] It sounds like.
[WH:] Yeah, as a matter of fact, he didn’t
graduate from college until 19, let’s see,
1960. He’d had a teaching certificate all
these years. He started teaching when he was
twenty years old. He was born in 1900 and
by the time he got his full certificates and
full degree he finished it in summer school
at Utah State and I was sixteen at the time.
And me and my brother ran the ranch here while
he went to school that last year. Then at
that time, uh, my oldest brother, Gordon,
was, uh, sick and he and his wife moved to
Arizona. He was only twenty-three. When he
was a youngster he got kicked down in the
calf of his leg by a calf and he got a bone
infection and the doctors at that time would
just scrape, scrape more bone off to get rid
of it. By the time he was about twenty-three
his kidneys failed because they gave him so
much Sulfa drugs. That’s what the record
says, anyway, and he passed away the same
summer my dad graduated.
[LS:] Oh, how hard for your dad.
[WH:] So he had a tough time.
[LS:] Yeah.
[WH:] I realize I’m just jumping around.
[LS:] No, that’s fine. That’s fine. This
is informal. Not a problem. Well, how hard
for your father.
[WH:] Oh yeah, he was, he was quite a guy.
He never complained. He just took everything
in stride.
[LS:] Where was your home here in Grover?
[WH:] It was, uh, back here where we built
the shop now. It was a frame building and
it faced, uh, east. And uh, it wasn’t very
delightful in the winter because the sun never
shined in it. So, me and my wife built this
house, it’s a Boise Cascade, we, we build
it in 1963 when we were living in Soda Springs,
Idaho.
[LS:] Um-hum.
[WH:] For the idea that dad would move in
here and have central heating and our old
house was not that way. Se we built this house
and moved him into it. And he lived fifteen
years in this house before he died and under
a much better situation. If he needed the
heat he could just turn it up right there.
[LS:] That’s a great invention, isn’t
it?
[WH:] Yeah, it was wonderful, but he didn’t
want to do it at first.
[LS:] Really?
[WH:] Yeah, he was too used to the old house.
[LS:] Was it a coal burning stove?
[WH:] Yeah. Coal burning stove and he’d
have to stoke it every morning and evening.
It was just a hard job for him.
[LS:] That’s right.
[WH:] Especially when he got in his eighties
and he lived here alone.
[LS:] Yeah.
[WH:] I’d check with him most weekends when
I could, come down and help him. He just never
decided to get married again and we often
asked him why he didn’t. He said he just
didn’t want to make things more confusing
for his family.
[LS:] How sweet. How sweet.
[WH:] He just thought it’d be better if
he’d raise his kids and not have more conflicts
and like that. But, uh, he lived a good life.
[LS:] Wow, I’ll say. What a great legacy
you have.
[WH:] Yeah.
[LS:] It’s amazing.
[WH:] Thankful for it.
[LS:] Sure. Um, and so he grew up in this
area as well?
[WH:] Yeah, the only time he left was when
he went on a mission in Butte, Montana when
he was, uh, twenty-one, I think.
[LS:] Um-hum.
[WH:] Came back and married my mother who
was, who was, a native of this area too. But
the funny thing is, she was engaged at the
time he started dating her. And that didn’t
seem to bother him.
[LS:] He was determined.
[WH:] Yeah, and finally she broke her engagement
and they got married.
[LS:] He must have been pretty persuasive.
[WH:] Yeah, they were. They loved to dance.
[LS:] Now nice.
[WH:] They loved to be together.
[LS:] How nice.
[WH:] And she only lived to be thirty-six
years old, just in the prime of life.
[LS:] Yeah. Yeah.
[WH:] But she was a great person.
[LS:] Wonderful. Wonderful. So, you rode the
bus to high school?
[WH:] Yep.
[LS:] That’s quite a, quite a ways.
[WH:] Yeah, and my dad most of the time was
the bus driver. And you know what, he’d
say, “you better be on time or you’re
getting left just like everybody else.”
And it happened. He was a man of his word!
If we weren’t out the door by such and such
a time, he’d drive off.
[LS:] Well.
[WH:] You spent the day here doing what you
could. No TV or nothing fun.
[LS:] Sounds like that happened to you a time
or two.
[WH:] It, it happened to me once.
[LS:] Oh. (Laughs)
[WH:] My little sister, I think she got it
twice.
[LS:] Oh, dear. And that’s all it took,
huh?
[WH:] Yeah, same with church. He always figured
he had to leave early enough to go to church
and if he had a flat tire or anything he’d
still be to church on time. So we’d leave
a half hour early sometimes.
[LS:] Now, where was the Grover ward house?
[WH:] It was just over the hill here in Grover.
It was a schoolhouse and a ward house. There
was, it kind of doubled for that. It’s in
private ownership now. They sold if off to
private people. But it still looks like an
old church and an old school.
[LS:] Is it near where the Hale Theater is?
[WH:] Yeah. It’s before you go down the
hill. Have you been down to Hale’s?
[LS:] Yes, I’ve driven by.
[WH:] You know, there’s a sign over the
hill that says Clark Country.
[LS:] Yes.
[WH:] Take a left by that and go over and
there’s a little lane that has a house on
the corner and then the church, then the two-story
house down on the east end.
[LS:] Oh, I’ll have to turn in there and—
[WH:] Yeah. Doesn’t have the sign on it,
but it has the white fence around it.
[LS:] Oh, yes.
[WH:] That was our little church. It had,
uh, it was divided by a big curtain that you
could roll up. We’d have Sunday school classes
divided. And they’d have a potbelly stove
on each end so you had to heat it from both
ends.
[LS:] Still the same, huh? Wow.
[WH:] But it was a fun place. We’d have
a lot of activities there.
[LS:] That’s great. Just about everybody
who lived in Grover then was LDS?
[WH:] Everyone.
[LS:] Everyone. Were they all active?
[WH:] No. There was, uh, several men that
was inactive, but all the women were.
[LS:] Yeah.
[WH:] As you might expect. Women and children.
[LS:] So there were a few men that maybe didn’t
go as much.
[WH:] Yeah, true. Thought they needed to work
on Sunday.
[LS:] Um-hum.
[WH:] And for Primary we held it during the
week, and Mutual. We’d ride our bikes over
there and walk through the pasture.
[LS:] Oh, nice. How nice.
[WH:] But those were good times. Our aunts
were usually the teachers and that’s where
we learned all the songs. Really cherish those.
[LS:] And it certainly was a strong influence
on you if you went to the South Seas for your
mission.
[WH:] It was. It was my whole life. I didn’t
know there’s another church existed until
I went on a mission. I thought everybody was
Mormons. (laughs)
[LS:] Yes, yes. Tell us a little about your
experiences on your mission.
[WH:] Well, it was probably the best three
years of my life at the time. When I first
got there, the ship that we went down on,
they couldn’t come right into harbor. They
had to park out in the sea, and little whale
boats would bring us back to shore. I remember
getting up the next morning, we were on the
island in the mission home, and I looked out
and this ship that dropped us off was taking
off. My gosh, I got the—a pain in my heart,
but—
[LS:] There’s no going back now, huh?
[WH:] There’s no way for me to get home.
I just as well get in there and get some labors
done, and I loved the Maori people. They were
just so nice to us.
[LS:] Did you have any language training before
you left?
[WH:] No. We just learned Maori, I learned
Maori, when we got there. We didn’t have
a book or anything. We just got dumped right
in it, and our proselyting elders would help
us learn the language. We had these little
kid books, you know, Johnny Beat the Ball.
That’s how we’d learn the basics. And
then every week or so my companion would invite
the little people in the ward, the little
primary kids, and they’d come up to the
mission home and I’d listen to them read
books in their language. That’s what probably
helped me more than anything.
[LS:] Hmm, interesting.
[WH:] They would read these John Chase That
Spot, and then when they’d get out there
trying to listen to the older people, they
talked a lot more from down here in the throat.
And I had to learn it from their way too,
but it took me a good six months before I
could understand and talk.
[LS:] That was quite the accomplishment if
you could learn it in six months.
[WH:] Well, it’s quite a simple language
like Spanish. It’s not too difficult, but
it takes a lot of effort.
[LS:] Wow. So did you work on several different
islands, then?
[WH:] Yeah.
[LS:] Oh my goodness.
[WH:] The main island is Rarotonga, where
the mission home was. Aitutaki was another
island 100 miles away. Ma’uke was another
island. I didn’t work on Ma’uke, but Mangaia
was another island where I spent a lot of
time. They’re all about 100 miles away from
the main one. But every time we got shipped
to another island, you had to kind of learn
a little bit of a different—
[LS:] A little different dialect.
[WH:] Yeah, dialect. The way they talked.
[LS:] And then you traveled by boat?
[WH:] Yeah.
[LS:] How—was that hard to get used to the
travel in a boat?
[WH:] Yeah, these little boats were probably
about as long as this room. My gosh, you’d
get out there in the ocean, and they’d go
like this and this and this. They had a round
bottom and they just felt like you were going
to be thrown off at any time.
[LS:] Like a carnival ride, huh?
[WH:] Yeah. Not only that, but the natives,
when they’d travel between islands, they’d
take chickens and pigs and all the animals
and produce. When we’d have new elders come
in from the outer island, their white shirts
and ties would almost be black with the diesel
smoke coming out of the ship and they—a
lot of them got seasick.
[LS:] I was going to ask—did you get prone
to seasickness?
[WH:] No. I didn’t while I was riding those.
I don’t know if the Lord was protecting
me, but the only time I got seasick was on
a luxury liner going from Rarotonga to New
Zealand.
[LS:] Wow.
[WH:] And the reason I did is we got on and
we hadn’t had ice cream and all the good
stuff for three years, and they had something
they called Baked Alaskas. They’d bring
those out of the oven and me and my companion
just ate our fill of them. That’s the only
time I got—
[LS:] A little rich for ya, huh?
[WH:] Wow, when you’re not used to it.
[LS:] Yeah. Well, what an adventure!
[WH:] Yeah. Some people wouldn’t even believe
it, but it was really wonderful.
[LS:] Now when you returned home again, did
you notice a lot of changes?
[WH:] Oh my gosh. When we landed in Salt Lake,
I don’t know. I think they were just starting
on the freeway when I left in ’58. I couldn’t
believe how you’d even get to anybody’s
house. I’d stay on the outside lane and
pretty soon they’d shoot you off on an exit.
Oh my gosh, that was the most shocking thing.
[LS:] Hard thing to get used to.
[WH:] I finally had my cousin come and pick
me up, and I figured it out in time, but that
was— And another thing that really got me
was the language people used. You know, you
don’t hear American slang and American profanity
like you do when you get in an airport or
where all these people are talking. I couldn’t
believe the terrible language.
[LS:] So that was a little shocking.
[WH:] Oh, very much. Yeah it was. It just
burned my ears.
[LS:] Um-hum. Um-hum.
[WH:] I couldn’t believe people talked like
that.
[LS:] What about here in Grover. Had it changed
at all?
[WH:] No, not hardly any, except a lot of
my friends were gone. They’d moved on. But,
uh, still had the good old times, and my brothers
would come home, and my sisters. We’d have
Thanksgiving together and Christmas. Of course,
all of my brothers and sisters were married
when I got home.
[LS:] Oh, wow!
[WH:] Yeah, except my little sister, and we
got married about the same time. She married
a returned missionary from Kingston, just
a little small town over the hill. And I married
a girl from Lyman, Shirley Chapel, in 1964.
This year is our 50th wedding anniversary.
[LS:] Oh, congratulations!
[WH:] I can’t believe it.
[LS:] That’s a great milestone.
[WH:] It is. We’re going to have the family
all together in August.
[LS:] Oh, that’s great.
[WH:] And just have a good time. I’ve got
seventeen grandchildren and four greats.
[LS:] Wonderful.
[WH:] And I’m sure glad we got them. I don’t
know else we’d do if we didn’t.
[LS:] Right.
[WH:] But life goes on.
[LS:] Yes. So after you got married, you lived
in quite a few different places.
[WH:] Yes. We started here in Loa, and then
we moved to Richfield, and then we moved to
Tonapah, Nevada. Have you ever heard of Tonopah?
[LS:] Oh, I have. I’m sorry. Was that pretty
rough?
[WH:] It was for us. I mean, it’s totally
different than anything we’d experienced.
We got down there and they were really struggling,
the little church. We got to clean the beer
cans out of the Lion’s Hall and have church
there for a long time, for about two years.
[LS:] Now what did you clean out of the Lion’s
Hall?
[WH:] Beer. Beer cans and ash trays.
[LS:] Oh, beer cans.
[WH:] We had to go early to clean it all up.
But it was a good little branch. Maybe thirty-five
people? We got so close with them, everybody
was friends. Most of the area didn’t know
what Mormons were. We stayed there four years
in Tonopah, and then on our anniversary date,
October 10th, we moved to Soda Springs, Idaho.
But when we got up there it was a more, more
LDS community, several wards and two stakes,
and that was a really nice place to live,
plus all the beautiful mountains around there,
and the wildlife and fish and big phosphate
mining up there and lots of tourists. It’s
on the way to Jackson Hole, Wyoming. So it
was, we really enjoyed that. We stayed there
for four years. Then our next move from Soda
Springs was back to Elko, Nevada.
[LS:] I know Elko.
[WH:] You know Elko?
[LS:] Yes, I do. (Laughs)
[WH:] Did you live there?
[LS:] No, I’ve been through a number of
times. Yeah.
[WH:] Elko’s a very nice place. The people
are friendly, and I dealt with a lot of the
big ranchers down there. I seemed to be able
to talk their language.
[LS:] Because you came from ranching.
[WH:] Yeah, yeah I did.
[LS:] So you understood.
[WH:] I understood what they were up against,
and being a representative of the Forest Service,
I had to explain some of the policies they
were trying to enforce, and for the most part
we got things done.
[LS:] Great. Did you find that difficult,
being kind of between both sides?
[WH:] It was at times. Not anything insurmountable
because I found out, in large groups, large
meetings, people all get together and then
they kind of blow their steam, you know. The
most success I found was not the big meetings
but in small groups. I’d go visit them afterwards.
[LS:] You had a great secret, huh?
[WH:] It was. It worked for me because they
were good times. I’d go up to their home,
some of the leaders, and kind of go over what
I was trying to explain at the meeting. “Oh,”
then they would take a step back, “is that
what you’re trying to do? So-and-so said
you were trying to do this.” You know they’d
get things all heated up amongst themselves.
Really.
[LS:] Can you remember any of the specific
issues that were difficult or any of the policies
that might have been difficult to give to
ranchers?
[WH:] Yeah, we had wild horses. You’ve probably
heard of some of the conflicts about wild
horses.
[LS:] Yes.
[WH:] They were not indigenous to the area,
but since they were there, there was a lady
named Wild Horse Annie, started the movement
that they should be protected like the deer,
the elk, the buffalo, and so on. She got a
big movement going in Nevada and that when
we were living there. And we were developing
what we call a forest plan that takes into
account all the activities, and we would designate
where wild horses should be managed and draw
boundaries and so on. Same time BLM, our sister
agency, was doing the same on their land.
And between the BLM and the ranchers and us,
we worked it out so that in most cases the
horses’ range was moved to the BLM, off
the national forests, so we felt pretty successful
at overcoming that charge. And so in a lot
of cases in Nevada, it didn’t become our
problem, you know. And I’ve got nothing
against wild horses. I love horses. But it
just seemed that it wasn’t fitting together
with all the multiple uses that we have on
the forest. It was a conflict of livestock
grazing to a heavy degree. So that was a challenge.
Another challenge was mining, mineral operations.
You know there’s a law written on the books
way back in 1872, the Mining Law, which gives
precedence to miners for searching for precious
metals, gold and silver. And they have a special
niche from the federal government to develop
gold and silver, so we had to work real closely
with them because we didn’t have all the
cards. I mean, they could go develop to a
certain extent without our approval.
[LS:] Wow.
[WH:] But we got things worked out because
we’d talk to them and tried to say, “Well,
what if this, and what if that?” and in
most cases, people are pretty common sensical.
We worked it out.
[LS:] You had to be a diplomat.
[WH:] Oh, yeah. (Laughs) Very much so. And
I had a boss one time tell me, “You won’t
ever be a successful ranger. You don’t go
with these miners down to the bar and drink
at night. That’s when you do all your business.”
I said, “Well, if that’s the case, transfer
me somewhere else because I think I’m doing
okay.” But he thought I’d be a total failure
because I didn’t do those things that others
did.
[LS:] But you proved him wrong.
[WH:] In my word I think I did.
[LS:] Good for you. Good for you.
[WH:] But there was other challenges less
severe than those. It was a good career, all
in all.
[LS:] That’s great. Those are good examples.
Now you were in an interesting position as
far as the park here because you’ve worked
for the federal government and you’re also
a lifelong resident. Do you feel that you’re
in a, maybe, in-between here also?
[WH:] No. I don’t actually have an ax to
grind, so to speak. I feel like I can see
both sides of the issue. And rather than try
to preach to the cowboys that the Park Service
is doing alright, I try to point out, “Well,
what would happen if they didn’t do that?”
That kind of stuff. And I don’t ever take
the preservation kind of point of view. I
look at the multi-use side things that are
in conflict with each other. And the BLM same
way, I’ve been on the advisory board for
the BLM and we’ve talked about a lot of
things that needed a little tweaking here
and there.
[LS:] Sure.
[WH:] But I feel really comfortable here.
[LS:] Good.
[WH:] Working between the two.
[LS:] Good. Good. Because the Park is—a
national park is very different from the national
forest.
[WH:] Absolutely.
[LS:] So that might be a little more difficult
to understand.
[WH:] It is. They look at things more from
a preservation perspective, like leave it
like you found it. And I appreciate that because
some things ought to be left alone.
[LS:] That’s nice.
[WH:] Part of the Forest Service has the multiple
use, that’s been bred in this forever. Cows
and horses and fish and elk and deer. All
have their needs.
[LS:] Right.
[WH:] And you have to give and take and make
sure each gets their share.
[LS:] Sure.
[WH:] Rather than just preserve it for future
generations.
[LS:] Sure.
[WH:] Yet at the same time not making it a
bad place for tourists and people that like
to come and see the aesthetics and beauty
of the area.
[LS:] Sure. Now were you living here when
Capitol Reef was made a monument or a park?
[WH:] No, no.
[LS:] You were working out of state then?
[WH:] Yeah, I was out of state.
[LS:] And when you came back to visit did
you notice or hear of any big changes?
[WH:] Yeah, I heard of quite a few changes.
In fact, my dad used to have a cattle permit
down at Sandy Ranch. And when things got to
where they needed to preserve the range better,
they reduced the livestock grazing and his
permit was really reduced because of the national
park status.
[LS:] Um-hum.
[WH:] So I felt that part of it. But we had
an alternative plan.
[LS:] So what was your alternative?
[WH:] Bring ‘em home, raise ‘em here.
(Laughs)
[LS:] Good. (Laughs)
[WH:] We found out we could be more productive.
[LS:] Oh.
[WH:] Not losing cows to death and predators.
[LS:] Wow. So you had more loss down at the
Sandy location?
[WH:] Yeah.
[LS:] Because that’s a long way from here.
[WH:] It is. And there’s quite an expense
in trucking them or driving them down there
every year, whereas if you keep them here
you can keep them vaccinated and taken care
of. So we sold that part of the operation.
[LS:] The part down in Sandy?
[WH:] Yeah.
[LS:] Was that like a cooperative group for
the ranchers then?
[WH:] Yeah, it was. It was a group.
[LS:] And now a private company has bought
it. Is that right?
[WH:] I think that’s what happened. I’m
not sure. A lot of the ranchers were there
trying to make a go of it found some state
land or private land. That old Don Taylor,
for example, fenced off maybe two sections.
I don’t know how much. But then he’d run
his cows there and feed them hay in the winter
and not even go on the Park. But there’s
quite a big expense, you know. Rather than
what they’re used to.
[LS:] Now when you had your cattle here in
Grover, was it quite a challenge in the winter
to get them through the weather?
[WH:] Yeah, you had to raise a lot of hay
to keep them fed up.
[LS:] And they’d just be out on the range?
Or did you bring them in with shelter?
[WH:] They’d be just out in the pasture
and the trees like this here, and then we
had the stock yard. We would separate the
cows that were going to have little calves
right away. We’d kind of keep them separate,
so we could watch ‘em. And it paid off.
It was more efficient, much more efficient.
[LS:] Good. About how many head of cattle
did your family usually have?
[WH:] We, uh, on this place we had, oh, about
thirty milk cows, Guernseys, special breed.
And, uh, then about thirty range cows, Herefords.
But all the time I was growing up we milked
cows.
[LS:] I was just going to say, I didn’t
realize you were dealing with milk cows, because
that’s morning and night—
[WH:] Oh, absolutely.
[LS:] —seven days a week, huh?
[WH:] Absolutely. It’s a good thing I have
plenty of brothers.
[LS:] Yes. What time would you have to get
up in the morning to milk?
[WH:] At 4:30 our dad would be up and sound
the alarm and we’d all come out one at a
time. Then I had a brother that lived in Reno.
He’s dead now, but he was our main cook.
He didn’t like to do chores. He said, “Oh,
I’ll do the cooking.” (Laughs)
[LS:] Good system.
[WH:] So he turned out to be a pretty good
cook.
[LS:] That’s great.
[WH:] Nobody complained, I’ll tell ya!
[LS:] Then what time in the evening would
you have to milk?
[WH:] Six.
[LS:] Six. So by the time you finished it
was time to go to bed.
[WH:] Yeah.
[LS:] If you get up at 4:30. Whoa!
[WH:] We didn’t—it didn’t seem like
we had a lot of homework in school, neither.
[LS:] I was going to say, probably not.
[WH:] I remember in the early days, all we
had was a coal oil light, so—
[LS:] My goodness.
[WH:] —no TV for entertainment.
[LS:] Right. When did your family get electricity?
[WH:] Uh, it was in the late 1940’s.
[LS:] Really?
[WH:] Uh, Lurt Knee, when they got electricity
down, uh, down there to Floral Ranch it was
about—Denny Mulford helped him put it in.
They strung it all over clear all the way
to Floral Ranch.
[LS:] What a job!
[WH:] And that was about fifteen years after
we had it here.
[LS:] Oh.
[WH:] So he got power down there when, uh,
when they build that motel, I guess. You know
more about that than I do.
[LS:] Well, a little bit, just a little bit.
So I’m glad to know that. That’s interesting.
[WH:] Yeah, Denny Mulford put the poles in.
he was a guy that could do anything. He could
fix his own car if it broke down and overhaul
a tractor. And his wife, Della, was a cowgirl.
Man, she took care of the livestock.
[LS:] Is that right?
[WH:] They were hardworking people.
[LS:] Well you had to be very self-sufficient
here.
[WH:] You did. You did. We had an aunt that
lived in Torrey that raised good gardens.
And we’d use her produce all the time, tomatoes.
Then in the fall, Dad would buy sugar for
my aunts to put up fruit for us. And, uh,
that’s how we survived on the fruit for
the winter and then—
[LS:] Great, that’s a lot of work!
[WH:] —then they made bread for us.
[LS:] Oh, did they?
[WH:] Homemade bread, oh boy. And that was
a job because a lot of my aunts had kids of
their own—two to ten.
[LS:] So the family, the extended family,
really helped?
[WH:] Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.
[LS:] That’s wonderful. Now when did you
get telephone service?
[WH:] That’s another thing. I wish I had
a pinpoint date for that. But before we got
‘em, let me talk just a little bit there
about the Wildcat, the ranger station out
there. It had an old crank phone. If you got
lost out there you could crank phone somebody
in Teasdale or Torrey and tell ‘em you’re
lost or if there was a forest fire. But, uh,
we didn’t get phones until, gosh, let’s
see. I was, I was almost out of high school
so it must have been about 19—early 1950’s.
And we were on a party line for a long time.
(Laughs) I’ll bet it was maybe late 40’s,
early 50’s.
[LS:] Um-hum, and so those conveniences, did
they bring changes to the way people lived?
[WH:] Yeah, they did. Before we got phones,
anybody who wanted to date my sisters had
to come here to the door and ask them for
a date.
[LS:] Yes!
[WH:] When we got the phone, my sisters was
always on it. So that was a big change.
[LS:] Oh! That didn’t take long, huh?
[WH:] (Laughs) No, that didn’t take long
at all.
[LS:] That’s great. That’s great. Um,
what did you do for recreation, fun, as a
family or as a kid?
[WH:] Uh, we relied a lot on church activities.
We always had a big 4th of July parade, rodeo,
and uh, in fact, we would just catch calves
here and have a little rodeo by ourselves—
[LS:] Oh my goodness!
[WH:] —for a while, all our activities were
pretty much community or church. When I got
into high school, they’d have a dance about
every weekend. Over at the Big Apple in Torrey—
[LS:] Oh, really?
[WH:] —in summer.
[LS:] Now what was the Big Apple?
[WH:] It was a dance floor outside. It had
a cement pad and a place for the band to sit.
[LS:] Whereabouts was that in relation—
[WH:] Right in the middle of Torrey. If you
go by there you can, it’s got a fence in
the back for the band to sit in. Somebody
could point it out to you. I don’t know
if there’s a sign there or not. It’s on
the left side of the road going towards Bicknell,
and that was really good for in the summer.
And in the winter we’d have basketball games
at the high school. After every game we’d
have a dance. We used to dance every week.
[LS:] It was a big deal.
[WH:] We’d have the local orchestra. First
it was Sam Chidester. He played the fiddle
all the time. Then it got to be a younger
group. And later on Petersons, they were called,
and they had quite a few instruments. Boy
they were good old hillbilly tunes.
[LS:] So I was going to ask, what kind of
dancing?
[WH:] It was mostly just ballroom dancing,
we didn’t—oh, we did the bunny hop all
the time. That was one of our favorites.
[LS:] Did you have the swing, to kind of more
rock music, or—
[WH:] No, it was not towards rock, then.
[LS:] It was still maybe the waltz?
[WH:] Yeah, Tennessee Waltz.
[LS:] Oh.
[WH:] All those old songs.
[LS:] Um-hum.
[WH:] Yup.
[LS:] That’s great. That’s great. Is this
your family coming in?
[WH:] This is my daughter.
[LS:] How nice! Hello.
[AH:] Oh, hi!
[WH:] Hi, Angie. This is Linda.
[LS:] My name is Linda.
[AH:] Hi, Linda. I’m all dirty so I won’t
shake your hand.
[LS:] Not a problem, not a problem. Glad to
meet you.
[AH:] You too. So you met my wonderful dad?
[LS:] Yes.
[WH:] Don’t say that.
[LS:] He’s sharing stories.
[AH:] He’s a great man.
[LS:] That’s terrific.
[WH:] She’s a great—
[AH:] He’s touched everyone he’s been
in contact with.
[LS:] Oh, isn’t that—
[WH:] She’s Eph’s great, great, great
granddaughter.
[AH:] No, I’m two greats.
[WH:] No, just two greats.
[LS:] Two greats—now tell me your first
name again.
[AH:] I’m Angela.
[LS:] Angela.
[AH:] Yeah, I’m the youngest.
[LS:] Oh, how nice.
[AH:] Yeah, I did the, um, the trek in Martin’s
Cove—
[LS:] Oh, wonderful.
[AH:] To kind of follow, you know, with the
story. And it was amazing. It was really great.
And, um, they have people that are interpreting
other people from that time. And I guess EK
was one of the ones that usually does it,
but he wasn’t there. But he heard there
was a Hanks at the camp, so he drove all the
way out there to meet me.
[LS:] Wow! And who did this?
[AH:] I don’t know, I don’t remember his
name, but he was dressed up like EK, like
he had the fringed leather.
[LS:] Oh, he was portraying EK Hanks.
[WH:] He was acting the part, yeah. Buckskin
coat.
[AH:] And the stake president knocked on the
tent and I was like, “Who knocks on a tent?
Come in?” Like I guess “Hello?” And
he’s like, “There’s someone here to
meet you.” And I was like, “That’s bizarre.
I’m in the middle of nowhere.” And I went
out of the tent and I saw this man in like,
in leather fringe, and it just hit me, and
I just started crying. It was very touching.
[LS:] Oh, I’ll bet.
[AH:] It was a great story, so—
[LS:] Well, you have such a great heritage.
[AH:] I do. I’m very lucky.
[LS:] That’s wonderful.
[AH:] Very lucky.
[LS:] That’s terrific. And how nice that
you could do that.
[AH:] Yeah. And Mom was going to go on it,
and then she ended up not feeling too well
so I didn’t train for it or anything. And
it was hard work. It was really hard work.
I almost gave up, and I sat down and I’m
just like, “I can’t go on, just take me.”
And then there’s a guy in the stake that’s
in a wheelchair, and he’s a fighter. He’s
a great man too, but, um, he passed me and
I was like, “Oh my gosh, I really gotta
pick myself up here.”
[LS:] It was a little motivation.
[AH:] Right, like am I better than that? No,
I can’t give up, so I kind of picked myself
up off the prairie.
[LS:] Good for you.
[WH:] She’s our youngest daughter. Out of
six.
[LS:] That’s wonderful.
[AH:] Out of six.
[LS:] Now, did you have all girls?
[WH:] No, we had three boys and three girls.
[AH:] Nice to meet you.
[LS:] Nice to meet you, Angela.
[AH:] Yeah.
[LS:] Three and three. How great.
[WH:] Yeah, three and three.
[LS:] Well, um, I was going to ask you about
the Floral Ranch area. Did your family go
there visiting or did they ever live there
or work on the area?
[WH:] Just my grandfather, Walter E. He was
there, but my father and our family just went
there on vacations to hear the stories. But,
uh—
[LS:] Would your father tell you stories about
Ephraim?
[WH:] Oh, yeah.
[LS:] What would he tell you?
[WH:] He’d tell me stories of a lot about
the Wild Bunch. Butch Cassidy.
[LS:] Really?
[WH:] Yeah, they’d stay with Ephraim and,
uh—
[LS:] You’re kidding!
[WH:] Yeah.
[LS:] I didn’t know that!
[WH:] They didn’t protect him per se, but
they’d need a nice meal, and his wife cooked
a good meal. And my grandpa, Walter E. he
lived in Cainesville—he was the first and
only bishop of Cainesville, and they’d stay
at his place on the way through quite a lot.
[LS:] Really?
[WH:] My dad said he’d see when Silvertip
would come—you’ve heard of Silvertip in
the Butch Cassidy bunch? He’d put his silver
tipped bullets around stacked on the dresser
where he slept in the size of a horseshoe,
so he could grab his revolver and fill it
up and be gone.
[LS:] Oh my goodness!
[WH:] But they were good friends.
[LS:] Really?
[WH:] Yeah.
[LS:] That’s interesting. How did they resolve
that? How does a Mormon bishop resolve maybe
the conflict of values with Butch Cassidy?
(Laughs)
[WH:] I don’t know. I think they were so
used to just taking in strangers anytime they
knew they were hungry.
[LS:] They were all just out here in the wilderness,
and so you just helped everybody.
[WH:] Yeah. And there was Indians here at
the time too when Ephraim was here, so it
was just a policy, I don’t think they passed
judgment on anyone.
[LS:] Right.
[WH:] A lot of polygamists that were still
polygamists stopped through at EK’s place
and in fact he would hide them away from the
federal authorities.
[LS:] So is it true that there was kind of
an underground railroad for the polygamists
to get to Mexico? Did you ever hear any stories
about that?
[WH:] An underground railroad?
[LS:] Yeah, so that they would maybe go from
little settlement to settlement to escape
down to Mexico?
[WH:] It could have been very possible, I
never heard it put that way, but—
[LS:] Oh.
[WH:] —a lot of them would go through Pleasant
Creek, because it is pleasant water, and pure,
and a good place to camp.
[LS:] And they could hide out in caves there?
[WH:] Oh yeah. A lot of caves. In fact, Eph
built a cave. You ever been to it?
[LS:] Now I would love to find that. In fact,
if there is, you know, any time you have time,
I would love to take you over there and I
could show you UVU’s Field Station which
might be interesting to see.
[WH:] Yeah, I’d love to see that.
[LS:] Because it’s on the same spot where
Lurt Knee’s dude ranch was up there on the
top of that little mesa.
[WH:] So you take the opposite road like you’re
not going to Floral Ranch? Take that road
that goes up on top?
[LS:] Yeah, right. And then maybe you could
show me where that cave was. Or it’s still
there, right?
[WH:] Oh yeah, it’s still there.
[LS:] And that’s where Ephraim Hanks lived
and his wife Thisbe, is that right?
[WH:] Uh, I’m not so sure they lived there.
It looked like a place where they could store
food.
[LS:] Oh, I see.
[WH:] It was just barely tall enough that
I could walk in there, and it had a door on
it. Then above the door it had a place that
looked like it might be a breathing space.
[LS:] Oh, interesting. Just to get air.
[WH:] People could have stayed in there. It’s
just a little bit above where the old homestead
was there on Floral Ranch.
[LS:] Um-hum. You know where the road crosses
Pleasant Creek now, today. Is it downstream
from there, then?
[WH:] Upstream.
[LS:] It’s upstream from there. Okay, I
see.
[WH:] Have you been to the Indian writings
below?
[LS:] Yes. The panel.
[WH:] Oh you’ve been to them?
[LS:] Yes.
[WH:] Okay.
[LS:] And I had a question too. Do you know
a fellow who lives in the area named Chip
Ward? I don’t think he’s LDS but he wrote
a book called Canaries on the Rim. And he,
back I believe it was in the 70’s, he and
his wife were kind of assistants to Lurt Knee.
And they helped run the motel, helped take
care of it.
[WH:] Oh. I haven’t heard of them.
[LS:] But anyway, he mentions in his book
that there is a story that when Ephraim Hanks
lived there on the Floral Ranch—
[WH:] You know, what I’d like to do is talk
a little bit more about Thisbe.
[LS:] You bet.
[WH:] Sometimes she doesn’t get the proper
credit.
[LS:] Um-hum.
[WH:] It’s always the big man out there,
getting the game and coming back.
[LS:] Yes.
[WH:] But she lived a great life, too.
[LS:] Um-hum.
[WH:] She’s not mentioned a lot.
[LS:] And it was hard work.
[WH:] Oh my gosh.
[LS:] It looks like she had a big family,
as I glanced.
[WH:] Twelve kids.
[LS:] Oh, I can’t imagine.
[WH:] She did. She was just a little gal,
teenaged gal coming from London. She came
across on a ship and joined the handcart company
that Eph saved—well, not saved, but provided
for.
[LS:] And that’s how they met?
[WH:] That’s how they met. And, uh, he gave
Thisbe a blessing because she was about to
die on the plains, and her mother told Eph
that she could be his wife if he wanted her
to. She owes her life to him. So they got
married a week before she was seventeen.
[LS:] Wow.
[WH:] Well, when she came up to the plains,
she lived with E. K. in the area with his
first wife.
[LS:] Um-hum.
[WH:] And they took care of her. Poor, destitute,
little people, starved to death. And I’d
like to tell a little bit more about that.
[LS:] You bet.
[WH:] This book’s written about her.
[LS:] Oh, is that right? I’ll give you that.
[WH:] Okay, thank you.
[LS:] Oh, and this is Sidney Alvarez Hanks.
[WH:] Yeah, that’s her son.
[LS:] That’s Thisbe’s son. Oh my goodness.
And it looks like—so, that was printed in
Salt Lake. I’ll betcha it would be at the
U of U, huh?
[WH:] I’m not sure. I could loan you that
one if you want to take it.
[LS:] Well, I don’t want to take that. It
might, you know, that’s a big responsibility.
I don’t know if I’m big enough to. (Laughs)
[WH:] We had a copy of that, there’s a printer
in, I think it’s in Idaho Falls.
[LS:] Um-hum.
[WH:] That, uh, still publishes that book.
[LS:] That’s great. The Life Story of Thisbe
Read Hanks, and it’s by Sidney Alvarez Hanks,
and it was published by the Salt Lake Times,
huh?
[WH:] Yeah.
[LS:] In 1956.
[WH:] And I’d like more to be said about
her. She was a hard worker all the time.
[LS:] Sure. I’m glad that this was written.
[WH:] Me too.
[LS:] And, uh, there are a lot of unsung heroes,
huh?
[WH:] Oh, there are, and she’s one of them.
[LS:] So, it looks like it almost reads as,
um, a narrative, a story.
[WH:] It does. Some people look down on it,
because it says “Ma” and “Pa” and
some of those, you know, more simple terms,
but that was the jargon.
[LS:] But that was the family term. Sure.
[WH:] But I’d like to not leave her in the
clouds. She was a contributor.
[LS:] That’s great. That’s beautiful.
I’m going to check to see if that’s at
U of U.
[WH:] Okay.
[LS:] And—
[WH:] And also, if you want a website—
[LS:] Um-hum.
[WH:] Uh, it’s called “Hank’s Place.”
You can find all kinds of bibliographies and
stuff in there.
[LS:] Oh, really?
[WH:] I don’t know to what extent you want
to go with your research.
