spring wife's
on the phone Jeff Goodell the %ah writer
love the piece in The this month's
Rolling Stone
lover goodbye Miami by the centuries and
rising sea levels will turn the nation's
urban fantasy land into an American
atlantis welcome to the program Jeff
specter
so I is I I E
you know we don't really see enough love
this type of
reporting frankly I love a over ove
really the problems the actual on the
ground problems were going to be facing
I with a with global climate change
and so I really appreciated this piece I
talk to us as to why you right to even
more than silicon valley Miami embodies
the central technological myth of our
time
well
then choosing a miami is you know it did
it is I'm a place
that I'm reviews is that for
man and technology has to have triumphed
over nature in other words
you know you can just sort of paper over
the swamps
divert the waters flow through the
Everglades
bill on land that's you know
one for about sea level I am
completely sorted disregard the fact
that it's
in won a major hurricane hot spots in
the world
and a all the implications that suburban
sprawl in traffic and everything that's
going on around there that they wrote
sorter we will always figure out some
way to
your get drinking water to protect the
city from Hurricane
that included nature is true om
a less powerful force in human ingenuity
and that I'm what we can just need to do
where we do to keep the real estate boom
going now and we'll worry about the
future at some other time and there's a
kind of hubris about their
about just like a throwing this area
with the written without any kind
regards to the consequences
a this kind of development in but I mean
to be to be fair
its it's worked I guess up to this point
artist now it's a fantastic way alive
place it's been one of the most dynamic
cities in the country right now
out there development is booming there
again you know it's
a it's a real hard for a
America and and Latin America and
that's what makes it such a poignant
story is that
this hire a dynamic lively place I
is not gonna last yeah RK tell us you
could tell us about that part of it
I'm you quote I howled Wireless the
chairman of the department of geological
sciences at
you Miami it's a Miami as we know it
today is doomed it's not a question of
if it's a question of when I am tell us
the forces that are going to
do Miami as we know it today well as
it's really not very complicated I mean
you know miami's seventy percent of the
land and sorta
the larger Miami metropolitan areas
under five feet
elevation above sea level I'm
and you know the a
are federal government estimates
sea level rise which are conservative
our show that exceed our size
I'm sixty by the end of the century but
many I'm
scientifically they can go even higher
than that so it's 62 sea level rise
I'm biambi as we know it today is slot
and ceases to exist in any form that we
can be we can imagine it happening today
but the interesting thing about this
story is that no
Miami from start long before that are
already having problems were
I'm still a rising star Serge is coming
into Miami Beach flooding out parts of
miami Beach
upstart water coming into the
underground aquifer that supplies
drinking water
so the serb pointed the story about
what's going to happen to miami is that
it's not the disaster almost certain
it's going to be awareness & Gabbana be
scuba diving into condos and things like
that it's a slow motion
a disaster that's already happening
there is going to just six or eight as
years I move forward you know i mean the
there's there's a lot of which when I
see
you know trends I mean that you know i i
assertive a match in in in in you talk
about this a little bit in
in in the piece that what we're going to
see and
it's weird I i mean i you I see this in
terms of work with the with the just
even
on the internet with numbers the way
that these things seem to go and it's
same thing with viruses
is that you have like a slow degradation
then they serve
spikes up disaster which why I imagine
we're gonna seen in the context the car
canes
and then it sorta it recede slightly but
it the
the level love I love degradation is
higher than it was before and then which
gonna get a series to the spikes that
so we're gonna see this slow-motion
disaster with
these moments love love above I guess
contain disasters is a is that the way
that the EU
you the the scientist imagine this gonna
happen
yeah I mean I sent out the pizza
matching water category fire
hurricane in the year 2030 when we had
me know as much as a
for us to have our eyes but that due to
the city and what are the things that
you have arises that
it makes I'm all the storm surges a
including high tide do everything for
high ties up to you know kelberg her
dance that much more damaging
because it carries that you carry that
much more water into the city rent
on Tulare and so yes you're going to see
the
I'm increasingly devastating flooding
from
I am everything from high tides and up
to
to hurricanes and it's going to be this
order slow realization that this is not
something that is just
I'm going to hit one thing go away as
the tide
as their storm waters recede there will
still be problems from is rising tides
and no place like Key West and lot of
places in the world where
you know they've built I cities
up a better elevated can't deal with
storm surges the come in and out
but it's another thing to deal with I'm
full-time inundation with actual
I'll sort of going submerging other city
and that's that's where things get
really complicated for Mary
it's not important point out this is not
a problem this only facing Miami
right coastal cities around the world
faces New York
and I first started doing that the
thinking about the peace because I was
gonna write about New York but then I
realized that
miami is more interesting and the thing
that makes Miami
different the many many other places is
that it's very difficult to
defend against in a place like New York
or
foster London other ways building
seawalls airways are moving to higher
ground relocating
a lot of things that can be done in
Miami you there's no real high ground to
move to
and because the coarseness of the
limestone the
City is built upon the water will come
up
behind underneath see well so there's no
real way to protect the city
in in in in some respects a.m. a miami
is
is simply going to be or you know and
and arguably maybe
some level and the maybe New Orleans was
but I mean
to adnan sandy on some level but I mean
miami is going to be the canary in the
coal mine right i mean
you're gonna be able to build the sea
walls but eventually
that the question is gonna be can you
build them fast enough in
not just from a technological standpoint
but also from
a political will stand point tonight one
other you know you mention that there's
a
a certain amount of serve hubris that is
like the Silicon Valley
but there's also another level of
resistance in Florida that is
particularly alarming
a just tell us about the the
II you know that what struck out for me
was the
I E you were speak to Chuck Watson who
is a disaster impact analyst the
with a lot of experience in Florida he
tells
a attending a meeting for natural has a
response planning in South Florida
and then and then tell us what happens
at that meeting
well truck is very from a
service 22 a expert and
natural disasters and very concerned
about I'm thing for expert surgeons
sea level rises are the most articulate
people I talk to
he described being in a meeting with I'm
Tuesday commissioners
South Florida and I'm I
me know he described some suffer talk
about my story a
and tried to hours the politicians to
take this seriously and began
some planning to work that and 10 this
taking the stairs
a stood up in it its is he check said to
be treated them to a fifteen minute
lecture
the just have which was I that God is
already
destroyed the planet or destroyed
civilization once with floods
as promised not to do it again and so
truck should go back and read the Bible
and get wise about this
and its this kinda and I don't mean to
I'm you know not altered in the did I
love them is
a as religious basis that are kinda
varieties that then I'll
but they all are in Florida and Florida
is though the
what are the epicenter then I love the
coping def have the problems that
climate challenges faced
a tell presents for cities like wearing
so basically nothing is being done not
only that they being done
Melanie talk about it which is you know
a whole nother level up disaster
yeah I mean I wonder ability I will just
talk a little bit about that and I'll
because
you know one is that God will take care
of this or god is our promise to make it
cannot be a problem
and then it's just sort of like it seems
to be a series of other types
love sir blind faith that this is all
just gonna work out
you know i mean i that's what I sort of
I'm fascinating in
that you you do cover all those are two
different levels above
above love the Nile but at the end of
the day it's really just sort of
people just don't want to a match in
this happening
because they can't writer is a minute
there is something about it
you have you're being to I catastrophic
to even begin to bend your mind around
but that doesn't necessarily have to be
the cast of course public are the
problem is that no one at the parents
weren't thinking about it
but I think with sea level rise in the
storm surge in things things I'm talking
about in this
the I'm I think you have arises very
powerful because it's not hype that we
already know everyone knows there any
third-grader knows that one when at a
temperature heats up ice melts and
that's basically what's happening
when the Arctic and Antarctic and that's
what struck sea level rises only
hypothetical about this is just
the question is how fast it's gonna
happen I want the kind of
you know rational denial mechanisms that
are in place
like Florida especially is that oh well
yeah you're right to the right
the problem but it's like to be a
problem for 100 years and so
I really have to deal with it now and
for a partition of course you know it
easy
there were problems going on at the
moment and they wanna push Rockies
long-term think you are responsible
and especially if it works for you have
you know the whole
engine that the economy is more
development development development
and the idea that you know well these
bitches are going to be here in 30 or 40
years
not something that sister development
engine they're really wants to hear
I'm you know these beaches and the
coastline at miami is the engine of the
economy
very and the idea that going away is
just I'm
you know tantamount to you know the
entire economy going away
so it's a really big thing to get 110
around
I but let me ask you this what about
Holland aren't they gonna save us
what about Holland yeah I'm the Dutch
gonna say this because they they fit for
this out
right that's part of the technological
hubris that we talked about the very
beginning I mean
certainly the Dutch have done a very
good job love
I'm living with rising the in the
Netherlands it but
I'm 24 quarter that they've been
thinking about this in doing this for
you know several hundred years
so they have a lot of sophisticated
planning and thinking about it and it is
very much a sort of national
our cars a up dealing with this and
there's no
kinda denial about what's at stake there
I'm
and second of all the did geology there
is much different than
I'm they can build Walter Kendall dikes
this kinda in because to engineering as
possible
the problem with miami is a it's really
not possible so the idea
the Utica higher price for Dutch
engineer they're coming bill
the world dikes everything is going to
be jolly is
is not going to happen army talk to some
other top experts in the world
Dutch experts who are very knowledgeable
about
to level rise in water management things
and they've basically it's on their
hands up
I'm saying we don't know what we would
do or what you could do to
save Miami no well so much for the Dutch
I guess
and let's talk about let's talk about II
one also talk about
insurance because a my sense is that at
one point
we're gonna start to see I am in
private insurance basically just go all
just go away
right i mean the the there's going to be
a pup point where insurance companies
are gonna say it's just not worth our
while
to insurer I places like Miami
a against what we know is inevitably
going to hit
yeah I mean that's already starting to
happen after hurricane andrew
I hit Miami in 1992 like that
South Florida 1992 a lot of pride big
private insurers
I'll and copper property insurance
pulled out because they just realized
the risks were too high and
and that they were not making any money
so people like State Farm another's
travelers stop writing a call please and
therefore had to start
a basically a subsidized government
insurance program in order to keep
price is low enough for people to
continue living there but that program
called citizen sure
is are now in big trouble itself
the subsidized rates are I from
are does not unlock not enough to cover
the actuarial cost so
the program so they see this here right
now is the one big storm
you forget all the problems you have a
rise in talking about one big store
big hurricane heading south florida
could bankrupt the state because the
state on the hook for so much coverage
but as the future unfolded as the it
more more problems with what damage in
stuff
this again become a bigger and bigger
issue and
right now flooding is covered by the
National Flood Insurance Program
but it's like $24 billion dollars a
in debt right now I'm there's a lot of
action in congress trying to
reform that so we know that insurance
you're going to get something to get
more expensive than
some places a more less impossible to
get
that has huge implications for the
development of warrant for the border
car
because if you can afford to buy a house
I'm on the coastal regions a Florida
you know thats where everybody wants to
wear and
yeah only so many people are with and
Orlando
and in in lastly if if it's not
the if it's not all these other
elements that i mean that that are sort
of looming over
Miami just talk to us a little bit about
Turkey Point
what yes to Turkey Point is the server
crowning glory of this whole story in a
way
turkey part is a big a nuclear plant
that's
bill a about 20 miles south
Miami and it's basically right on the
water that the right at sea level
I'm and its the justices and major
disaster waiting to happen
I'm it is Bence this summer the
I'm reactors and other critical
equipment has been elevated
10 to 15 feet in order to protect it
from some source urges but in the long
run
I am this a nuclear plant is
is doomed and it's going to be
essentially even two or three seriously
level rise with serve
isolate the planned on it would amount
to an island in the middle of this can
bear
and the great irony of this whole thing
and suggest about just how
out of touch I'm a both
the utility company that's trying to
build the plant and the politicians are
allowing it
there is there on the verge building two
more new
nuclear reactors at the same spot which
would be around for
fifty or sixty or seventy years well
into the era when
you know the these are predicted to rise
I left cause major
problem so you can imagine what a a
creditor
tokashimaya like that would be like in a
on a I'll
at a place like turkey point when the
sea levels are much higher harder to get
out to the
everything like that I meet the I mean
that the
this is sort of almost one of the most
chilling aspect serve it the idea that
they could be building more
when we know now just reports this week
that they're Fukushima is still
leaking a into the ocean
and are leaking radioactive material
into the ocean
and ghetto I E which
work which side OVA above Florida's
Turkey Point on
in other words you know this it this is
where
the you know this is one of those things
with this disaster
if it ever takes place at a place like
Turkey Point is not just going to be
four Florida it's going to be either for
the entire eastern seaboard probably is
north is you know I don't know
a is I who knows how far north ago
a but also presumably the Gulf right
I mean I this stuff is not going to just
sit there off the coast of Miami its K
the its its gonna go somewhere else
right right well you know there's all
kinds of levels above
nuclear disasters from relatively modest
releases
to for sale that Spears I'm but I think
the larger point is that this is a and
I'm not anti-nerve
for me I do think there's a quote from
there said our energy system and
that but this is an example love why
people are at
it because her sister a and being close
to have a plan
and the only acceptable saying is to
begin to phase it out
and get rid of it a and move it
somewhere safer
but instead they're doing the opposite
which is making it bigger
at kind that more more access to the
same spot
well Jeff the pieces is really I really
appreciate the peace because it I think
it's a really outlines that the
the myriad love problems that we're
gonna have and it's again he
you know I you're you're right to point
out and i think is why the piece is so
important
that this is not just about Miami these
are these are implications
we're gonna have these implications in
one form or another
I am throughout really the world a
you know we're gonna see either a
communities go bankrupt because if this
store
a massive disasters or the
simply a.m. you know cities that just
disappear
right and you know the the bigger
tragedy the course that the other
way they're preparing for to sway the
pic you had and make never talked about
London a great example under
very horrible City I'm but they've done
amazing work in been looking
straightforwardly at war what
to level rise and storm surges the
consequences so that could be for the
city
I'm planning to increase the the
barriers on the Thames
a building political power the political
a
support for that I there an example a
place that's really doing it right
and New York to live in New York with
Mayor Bloomberg this release
I'm adaptation plan a story about $20
billion dollars spending to
basically adapt to the changing climate
in May and New Yorkers and a viable city
for
the next 100 years and you know the
tragedy is a place like Miami
I have nothing at that not even close to
done even having a conversation about
that much less
actually putting a muscle into is that
where we are now it's basically like
the we just gotta figure out how to deal
with this because there's going to be
absolutely no way
I
to to mitigate it or foreclose
the the the chance of this being our
future
now I mean I think that we're certainly
in
into this is where we do have to think
about adapters and
who what we're going to do I'm that
think that
it's pretty clear to every scientist
that look at this with that
I am you know think this is things like
sea level rise are essentially
unstoppable
are are getting boxer really
great are quest we are just who I was
actually just in Green River two weeks
ago
I am estimates that even if we stopped
omitting
we have gas is today we would still have
seventy feet above sea level rise baked
into the cheapest
already in the system question is how
long that would take you know 100 years
two hundred years
however long but we're not going to stop
this I'm
so we need we do need to prepare for
this as a changes but it doesn't mean
that
cutting greenhouse gases not really
really important because because
slow down to this: that change in the
system
and I come closer to preserve answer
habitable climate for kids and grandkids
Jeff Goodell
other pieces goodbye Miami can't
recommend the peace
a knife a it is a I'm
II is if it's if it's likely to happen
is it really dystopian
a image UHV Miami
I don't know I'm not the but Jeff thank
you so much for
talking to us about cost
