WE'VE GOT ALL OF THAT AND A LOT 
MORE ON THE SHOW THIS MORNING.
BUT FIRST, A STATEMENT AND A 
QUESTION.
WE'VE SEEN A DRAMATIC CHANGE IN 
AMERICA'S ATTITUDES TOWARDS GAY 
RIGHTS IN THE LAST FEW YEARS.
HERE'S THE QUESTION, HOW MUCH 
HAS THE MEDIA INFLUENCED THAT 
CHANGE.
LET'S BACK UP A MOMENT AND LOOK 
AT WHAT HAPPENED THIS WEEK.
ANOTHER LANDMARK WEEK FOR GAY 
RIGHTS.
THE GOVERNOR OF ARIZONA VETOED A
BILL THAT WOULD HAVE GIVEN 
BUSINESSES THE LEGAL GROUNDS TO 
DENY SERVICES TO GAY PEOPLE.
IN TEXAS A FEDERAL JUDGE STRUCK 
DOWN THAT STATE'S BAN ON GAY 
MARRIAGE AND IN KENTUCKY A 
DISTRICT JUDGE SAID THE STATE 
MUST RECOGNIZE GAY MARRIAGES 
THAT WERE PERFORMED IN STATES 
WHERE THEY ARE LEGAL.
OF COURSE, THESE BATTLES ALL 
ACROSS THE COUNTRY ARE FAR FROM 
OVER.
LOOK AT HOW MUCH HAS CHANGED.
REPUBLICANS MITT ROMNEY, JOHN 
McCAIN AND EVEN SOME FOX NEWS 
STARS, ALL SPOKE OUT AGAINST THE
ARIZONA BILL.
HOW MUCH OF A ROLE DID WE IN THE
MEDIA PLAY HERE.
LOOK AT THIS RESEARCH CONDUCTED 
BY THE PEW RESEARCH CENTER LAST 
SUMMER AROUND THE GAY MARRIAGE 
DEBATE.
IT FOUND THAT STORIES 
EMPHASIZING SUPPORT FOR GAY 
MARRIAGE WERE FIVE TIMES AS 
COMMON AS STORIES EMPHASIZING 
OPPOSITION.
SO IS THE MEDIA COVERAGE OF THIS
ISSUE SHAPING AMERICA'S CHANGING
ATTITUDES?
OR IS IT MERELY REFLECTING THOSE
CHANGES THAT ARE HAPPENING 
ANYWAY.
JOINING ME TO HASH THIS OUT IS 
BEN SHAPIRO COLUMNIST AND EDITOR
AT LARGE FOR BRIGHT BART.COM AND
FOLLOW MASS FRANK THE AUTHOR OF 
"WHAT'S THE MATTER WITH KANSAS."
THANK YOU BOTH FOR JOINING ME.
>> SURE THING.
>> THANKS SO MUCH.
>> TOM, THIS CUTS TO THE HEART 
OF WHAT SOME PEOPLE COMPLAINED 
ABOUT FOR DECADE, THE IDEA THAT 
MEDIA IS BIASED IN THE CASE FOR 
LIBERALS.
IS THAT THE CASE AND WHAT ELSE 
ACCOUNTS FOR THE CHANGING 
ATTITUDES WE'VE SEEN IN ALL OF 
THE POLLING IN RECENT YEARS?
>> I'VE ALWAYS BEEN A BIG 
DOUBTER OF THE LIBERAL BIAS 
CRITIQUE, ALTHOUGH MAYBE THIS 
ISSUE IS DIFFERENT.
IF YOU GO BACK AND LOOK AT THE 
LONG HISTORY OF THE BIAS 
CRITIQUE GOES BACK TO WE KNOW 
WHEN IT STARTED, SPIRO AGNEW IN 
1969 BASICALLY INVENTED THIS AS 
A WAY OF GETTING BACK AT THE 
NEWS MEDIA OF THE DAY THAT WAS, 
YOU KNOW, THAT HE THOUGHT WAS 
OPPOSING THE VIETNAM WAR AND 
THAT SORT OF THING.
AND IT'S, YOU KNOW, IT'S GONE ON
AND ON OVER THE YEARS AND THE 
HILARIOUS THING IS THAT THE 
MEDIA IS OBJECTIVELY MUCH LESS 
LIBERAL TODAY THAN IT WAS THEN 
AFTER YEARS AND YEARS OF THIS 
STUFF.
BUT, YOU KNOW, THIS IS A VERY 
INTERESTING QUESTION.
DOES THE MEDIA REFLECT OR DOES 
IT CAUSE?
AND PEOPLE DEBATE THIS ALL THE 
TIME IN SOCIOLOGY AND HISTORY, 
ALL SORTS OF OTHER DISCIPLINES.
I USED TO ARGUE ABOUT IT MYSELF.
>> BEN, WHERE DO YOU STAND ON 
THIS?
DO YOU FEEL THAT THE PRESS 
EITHER RESPONSIBLY OR 
IRRESPONSIBLY ENCOURAGES 
ACCEPTANCE OF GAY MARRIAGE AND 
LAWS THAT ENCOURAGE GAY RIGHTS?
>> AS FAR AS THE BIAS OF MEDIA 
WHETHER IT'S REFLECTIVE OR 
GENRETIVE THE FACT IT REFLECTS 
L.A. AND NEW YORK AND GENERATES 
FEELING ELSEWHERE.
PEOPLE TEND TO REFLECT THE 
SITUATIONS IN WHICH THEY LIVE.
THE MEDIA IS LARGELY BASED IN 
COASTAL LARGE CITIES, LIBERAL 
CITIES, AND THEREFORE THEIR BIAS
IS REFLECTIVE OF THOSE CITIES 
WHILE CHANGING THE REST OF THE 
COUNTRY. 
>> IS THE PRESS IN THIS CASE AN 
ENEMY OF RELIGIOUS FREEDOM THEN?
WE SAW SO MUCH CRITICISM OF THIS
BILL FROM REPORTERS AND FROM 
COMMENTATORS AND FROM CORPORATE 
INTERESTS?
>> ABSOLUTELY.
ABSOLUTELY AN OPPONENT TO 
RELIGIOUS FREEDOM.
THE PRESS BELIEVES THAT 
ESSENTIALLY RELIGIOUS 
INDIVIDUALS SHOULD BE FORCED TO 
ABIDE BY WHATEVER THE PRESS'S 
STANDARDS OF MORALITY ARE.
YOU'VE SEEN PEOPLE LIKE TONY 
CORNHIGHSER ON ESPN SUGGEST THIS
LAW WOULD FORCE PEOPLE GAYS IN 
THE STATE OF ARIZONA TO WEAR 
YELLOW STARS OR GAYS AND 
LESBIANS WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO 
ATTEND NFL FOOTBALL GAMES.
THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE 
LAW AS WRITTEN AND DESIGNATED TO
CREATE THE PERCEPTION THE 
AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE A BUNCH OF 
BIGOTS LOOKING TO CROWBAR GAY 
PEOPLE IN THE STREETS.
>> DOESN'T SOUND LIKE THE 
AMERICA I KNOW.
HYPERBOLE IS COMMON IN THE 
PRESENCE. 
>> HELL I DEAL IN THAT STUFF.
THAT'S WHAT I DO, MAN.
CAN I JUST -- 
>> COMMENTARY AND THEN THE NEWS 
MEDIA AND THOSE ARE TWO 
DIFFERENT THINGS. 
>> CAN I TAKE A STEP BACK HERE?
I'M FROM KANSAS AND MY -- THE 
THING THAT GOT ME WRITING WHAT'S
THE MATTER WITH KANSAS WHEN THEY
HAD THE DEBATE OVER THE THEORY 
OF EVOLUTION IN THE STATE OF 
KANSAS AND THE MEDIA ALL OVER 
THE WORLD WENT ABSOLUTELY BE 
ZESHG, MAKING FUN OF KANSAS.
IT'S A REPLAY OF THE MONKEY 
TRIAL DOWN IN TENNESSEE IN THE 
1920s.
IT WAS A CLASSIC MEDIA SET PIECE
AND EVERYBODY WAS LAUGHING AT 
KANSAS AND THEN, YOU KNOW, THE 
LOCAL CONSERVATIVES STRUCK BACK 
SAYING YES, THEY DIDN'T DESCRIBE
WHAT WE WERE DOING PRECISELY TO 
THE LETTER.
THEY DIDN'T GET IT EXACTLY 
RIGHT.
THEY HAD A POINT.
BUT IN THE GRAND SCHEME OF 
THINGS, THE MEDIA HAD THAT STORY
RIGHT.
I THINK THEY HAVE THIS ONE RIGHT
AS WELL. 
>> SORRY.
THOMAS ADMITTED THE MEETING IS 
BIASED AND SKEWS THE STORY BUT 
IN GENERAL THEY HAVE THE STORY 
RIGHT.
EXPLAIN HOW A LAW THAT DOESN'T 
MENTION HOMOSEXUALITY IS ABOUT 
ALLOWING RESTAURANTS TO HAVE A 
RIGHT THAT TRUMPS FEDERAL LAW 
WHICH THIS DOES NOT AND HOW THIS
LAW IS GOING TO ALLOW 
RESTAURANTS TO RANDOMLY THROW 
GAY PEOPLE OUT OF THEIR 
BUSINESSES IN A WAY THEY WEREN'T
ABLE TO BEFORE IN THE STATE OF 
ARIZONA?
PLEASE EXPLAIN THAT TO ME HOW 
THAT'S ACCURATE. 
>> IT'S NOT A LAW.
IT GOT VETOED.
I DON'T KNOW IF YOU HEARD ABOUT 
THIS. 
>> A BILL, CORRECT. 
>> YEAH.
SO I DIDN'T READ THAT ONE BUT I 
DID READ THE BILL IN KANSAS, YOU
KNOW.
THE ACTUAL LAW ITSELF, THE 
PROPOSAL ITSELF, THE BILL THAT 
GOT VETOED THE OTHER DAY AND 
THEY HAD ONE IN KANSAS AND A 
BUNCH OF OTHER STATES, THAT'S, 
YOU KNOW, THE REALLY INTERESTING
THING.
WHERE DID THIS COME FROM?
WHO DEVELOPED IT.
THAT SORT OF THING.
YOU KNOW, IT WAS SORT OF MY 
OPINION IS THAT IT WAS ALL SORT 
OF GINED UP AS A KIND OF CULTURE
WAR SET PIECE TO RALLY THE 
TROOPS, GET SOMETHING FOR PEOPLE
TO FEEL PERSECUTED ABOUT, GET 
THE VOTERS WORKED UP ABOUT THE 
ONSLAUGHT OF, YOU KNOW, LIBERALS
AND THE TRIAL LAWYERS AND THE 
OUTSIDE JUDGES AND THAT KIND OF 
THING.
FEN F
THEN FALLING BACK ON LIBERAL 
BIAS IS SALVAGE A GAME THAT'S 
BEEN LOST BASICALLY IN MY 
OPINION. 
>> BEN, WHEN YOU COME ON 
TELEVISION, WHEN YOU WRITE 
COLUMNS, DO YOU FEEL THAT YOU 
ARE BEING PERSECUTED OR DO YOU 
FEEL YOU ARE BEING, YOU KNOW, 
PUT IN AN UNCOMFORTABLE POSITION
BECAUSE EVERYBODY ELSE SEEMS TO 
BELIEVE THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT YOU
BELIEVE?
>> I'M HAPPY TO BE A LIBERAL.
I SPENT MY LIFE IN LOS ANGELES 
IN CAMBRIDGE, I LIKE BEING IN 
LIBERAL AREAS AND DUKING IT OUT.
NO QUESTION THAT THE MEDIA IS 
BIAS TO THE LEFT AND NO QUESTION
THAT THE MEDIA IS VERY MUCH IN 
FAVOR OF GOVERNMENT THAT GETS TO
CONTROL WHAT RELIGIOUS PEOPLE DO
WITH THEIR PRIVATE BUSINESSES.
I MEAN, AND DO I FEEL PERSECUTED
IN THAT WAY?
LET'S SEE.
IF THE GOVERNMENT DECIDES IT CAN
TELL ME TO VIOLATE PLY OWN 
RELIGIOUS PRESETS BECAUSE THE 
GOVERNMENT HAS A GREATER GOOD IT
IS ATTEMPTING TO PURSUE WITHOUT 
EVIDENCE THAT GREATER GOOD IS 
ACTUALLY A NECESSITY, ANYBODY 
WHO COMPARES THE PLIGHT OF 2014 
G
GAYS TO BLACKS IS ABSURD.
WE STILL HAVE FREEDOM OF SPEECH 
AND I'M HAPPY FOR YOU TO BE ON 
THE AIR, FOR YOU TO BE ON THE 
AIR THOMAS.
I THINK THERE ARE MORE PEOPLE 
LIKE YOU THAN ME.
>> AWESOME. 
>> YOU MEAN THE PRESS?
>> THAT WOULD BE THE CRAZIEST 
THING IN THE WORLD.
I'M ALWAYS THE ODD MAN OUT.
I MEAN, IF YOU KNOW THE DAY -- 
>> YEAH, RIGHT -- 
>> I SHOULDN'T GO DOWN THIS ROAD
BUT I HAVE SPENT MY ENTIRE LIFE 
HAVING EXTREMELY UNPOPULAR 
VIEWS, UNPOPULAR OPINIONS, AND I
AGREE, THANK GOD FOR THE FREEDOM
OF THE PRESS.
THIS IS, YOU KNOW, THAT'S -- 
IT'S A WONDERFUL THING.
>> I'M ACTUALLY NOT EVEN, YOU 
KNOW, ON THE SIDE THAT YOU 
PROBABLY THINK I'M ON BUT AS FAR
AS BEING ON THE DEFENSE, BEING 
FROM THE RIGHT ON A LEFT NETWORK
LIKE CNN, OF COURSE I'M ON THE 
DEFENSIVE AND I GO IN WITH GAME 
PLANNING FOR IT.
IT'S NOT THE SAME THING AS GOING
ON FOX NEWS WHICH, OBVIOUSLY, 
LEANS TO THE RIGHT.
>> TELL ME ABOUT HOW YOU PLAN 
FOR IT?
I'M CURIOUS.
WE'RE ON THE MOST META SHOW ON 
CNN.
HOW DO YOU PLAN FOR IT?
>> WELL, WHAT I DO IS I ASSUME 
THAT I'M GOING TO GET A CERTAIN 
SET OF QUESTIONS FROM FOLKS LIKE
YOU, BRIAN, I GENERALLY DO GET, 
AND WITH ALL THE VEILED 
IMPLICATIONS THERE IN.
DON'T YOU FEEL PERSECUTED GOING 
ON A LEFTIST NETWORK BEING THAT 
I SEE MYSELF AS A VICTIM.
DON'T YOU FEEL WHEN YOU COME ON 
A LEFTIST NETWORK BEING ATTACKED
BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE JUST A
LITTLE INTOLERANT.
THESE ARE THE WAY THESE 
CONVERSATIONS GO.
I'M GLAD BRIAN THAT YOU HAVEN'T 
DONE ALL OF THOSE THINGS.
YOU'VE DONE SOME OF THEM.
OF COURSE WHEN I GO IN I WOULD 
BE FOOLISH NOT TO THINK ABOUT 
THE QUESTIONS I'M GOING TO BE 
ASKED BEFORE DOING SO.
>> AND, OF COURSE, I HAVE TO SAY
CNN DOES STRIVE TO BE 
NONPARTISAN.
I UNDERSTAND YOU FEEL IT DOESN'T
SUCCEED AT THAT ALL THE TIME.
AT LEAST IT TRIES.
BEN AND
