>> michael: Good afternoon, everybody.
This is michael munson with FORGE, and I think
it’s 2 o’clock and we’re ready to get
going.
We’re joined today with FORGE’s Policy
and Program Director, Loree Cook-Daniels.
We’ll be splitting the time between the
two of us for the next hour and a half.
I just want to remind everybody that we’re
not going to be covering Trans 101 issues
in this webinar, but we have several webinars
that are recorded that are Trans 101 focused
on our website, so we encourage you to take
a look at that, if that’s something that’s
appropriate or needed from you.
I also wanted to let you know that on June
20th, instead of having a webinar, we’re
going to be hosting a Twitter chat that will
focus on Trans 101 issues, so feel free to
join us for that, whether it’s 101 issues
that you’d like to talk about, or or even
more advanced issues.
We’d like to remind you to take care of
yourself.
I know that we’ve got a bunch of different
people from different disciplines on the call
today, and some of the content will be really
personal and intimate, and if it becomes too
painful or hard to listen to, we encourage
you to step away for a little bit, or know
that it’s being recorded and you can listen
to it again at another time.
The PowerPoints will be emailed out to you
within the next day, so you’ll get an email
that has a link to the PowerPoints.
So if that helps you with your note-taking,
know that they’re coming.
And like I mentioned, the recording will be
up and available to you within 48 hours or
so, after the end of today’s call.
We’ll ask you a couple times to interact
with us, and we’ll do so mainly through
the Questions feature, which you should be
seeing on your screen right now.
There’s a box that has an area for you to
type in questions.
So, that’s where you can ask us questions,
or respond to questions that we ask you.
Let me start out with a little bit about what
we can offer you, since some of you are not
familiar with the work that we do, and I want
to make sure that you know what you can access
from us.
We are an OVW--an Office on Violence Against
Women--training and technical assistance provider,
and that means that we can provide lots of
different kinds of support to you as providers,
which can include one-on-one support--so you
email us or call us, and we will try to do
our best to respond to your questions, whether
they’re simple questions or really difficult
questions.
We have monthly webinars, like this one, that
have different topics every month, so please
feel free to join us in the future for other
webinars or look at our archive on the website
to listen to previously recorded ones.
We also do a wide variety of trainings across
the country, mostly at conferences.
Sometimes we’re asked to be there, sometimes
we apply to be at different conferences.
So, we hope to see some of you at those conferences
in the next year.
And then the other thing that we offer in
terms of training and technical assistance
are publications that on our website.
So those are free to download, and use them
in whatever ways you find useful.
We offer some support for transgender survivors
directly as well, so this might be useful
for providers who would like to help steer
their trans clients to services that might
fit them better, or trans people may contact
us directly and ask for some services.
So, some of what we offer is a listserv or
email group, and that sometimes is really
comforting for people, that they can post
something and get answers and responses 24
hours a day, just to know somebody’s out
there.
We have a fairly large referral database,
and most of our referral database is therapists,
and we have them across the country, and we
try to make sure that they’re trans-informed
and trauma-informed, and we’re trying to
get better information about all of them,
but I think we have contacts in all 50 states.
So, if you need a referral, please contact
us for a referral.
And then the last two things that we’re
offering--one that we’ve done before online,
which is the Writing to Heal group.
And it’s a trauma-informed writing group,
which helps people work through some of their
traumatic history in a way that’s really
systemized and helpful to people in lots of
different ways, and it’s free for survivors,
it’s accessible as long as somebody has
an internet connection.
So that’s going to be starting in July,
and we’ll have four groups throughout this
next calendar year.
And then the last thing on the slide is the
Espavo Project, and we just launched this
project, and you’ll see a couple of slides
that show what it is, but it’s basically
a pairing of trans people or loved ones who
have an image--a photo that they take or that
we have taken for them--and it’s paired
with a statement of resilience about how they
are taking their power back and how they’re
healing.
So the goal is to help survivors reach that
place of empowerment and healing.
Like I mentioned, we are funded through OVW,
and we’re really grateful that they allow
us to continue to bring webinars to you every
month.
So we’re really grateful for them.
Let me share with you a little about how our
time is going to be structured today.
We’ll have some introductory stage-setting
pieces that will guide our way through the
whole webinar.
Then we’ll talk a little bit about data,
so trans rates of violence, and then how trans
and disability relate, with some data in there.
The large part of our time today is going
to be an interview with a survivor who’s
trans and disabled, and it’s going to be
very rich with information, and then we’ll
summarize both what happened in that interview
and some of the data that we shared before,
and some take-home messages, and then we’ll
have some time for questions after that.
So let’s start with a couple of things to
set the stage.
Many of us are encouraged to use person-first
language; in fact, some agencies insist on
it, and some educational degree programs focus
on this approach as the primary way of working
with clients.
I’m really glad to see that this shift is
happening, from pathologizing people to recognizing
people as people first.
And this often translates to shifting from
using language like “disabled person”
to “person with a disability”.
However, some people who are disabled or trans
may view those parts of their life as more
central, and they may have reclaimed those
components of their reality and want to put
those things first.
So, for some people who have trans histories
or identities, they may place their transness
in a more primary role in their life and in
their language.
They might say that they are trans men or
trans women, versus “men of trans experience”
or some other way where it which puts their
personhood first.
They might be strongly aligned with putting
that trans part of their identity before the
“person”.
This is true for people that are living with
disabilities as well.
I’ll do my best--and I know Loree will too--to
use language that is respectful of all the
people who are here, and--but in order to
do that, I think we need to be respectful
both to people who adhere to that person-first
language, and also to those who prefer other
forms of language.
So you’ll hear both of those things coming
to us throughout our time.
Lin Fraser, during the very recent plenary
session at the 2013 National Transgender Health
Summit, said, “No one’s identity is a
disorder,” and this quote seems especially
fitting when talking about person-first language,
or if and how and when some professionals
determine that a person’s experience and
identity should be labeled a “disorder”.
Sometimes it’s hard to have clear lines
about what a subject is.
So, when we look at transgender issues, it’s
one of those areas that there might be blurred
lines.
So, I’m hoping that a couple of these points
will help us get a little bit clearer.
So, some questions are, “Is there a hierarchy
of who is ‘trans enough’ to be considered
trans?”
This is something that’s discussed both
within trans or gender non-conforming or SOFFA
communities, as well as by those who may not
place themselves in the trans community.
“Where is the line between claims of trans
identity and perceived transness?”
By this I mean, can someone have a stated
trans identity that might not be noticed or
visible to others?
Or, can people be perceived by others as trans,
but they don’t identify as trans themselves.
Another question is around the medicalization
of transness versus transness as an identity
or an experience.
So in other words, people can have a medical
diagnosis of gender identity disorder or transsexuality
or gender dysphoria.
So do therapists and physicians look at transgender
issues in a medical or pathologizing way,
or can transness be viewed solely as an identity
or an experience or a social construct that’s
not necessarily medicalized or assigned to
any diagnosis?
These are just a few of the blurred lines
around transness.
Some of the centrality of these questions,
of course, revolve around who gets to decide
the answers to these questions.
So the same is true for disability.
There can be some fuzzy lines.
For example where is the line between disability
and health disparities?
What this might mean is that a person may
say that they have a disability, but someone
else might say that they belong to a group
with a health disparity.
So where is the line between a perceived disability
and a claimed disability?
Some people might determine that someone has
a disability, either because the disability
is visible to other, or because they have
specific medical knowledge about a person.
However, not all persons living with specific
medical or mental health conditions will claim
or say that they have a disability.
For example, people who live with chronic
conditions like arthritis might be perceived
to have a disability, but the person living
with arthritis might not view their reality
as a disability.
Where and how does the line shift when we
bring in multiple variables like income, or
access to health care, education, or family
support?
This might seem a little bit out of place
grouped with these other two points on the
slide, but what we mean here is, “Where
and how does disability change when we add
the intersection of other things like income
or access to services?”
For example, if one person has their leg amputated,
and has medical insurance or has a high income,
they might be able to be fitted with a prosthetic
that enables to be able to literally move
through the world in a different way than
another person who has their leg amputated
and may not have the financial resources or
the insurance, and might end up needing to
use crutches or a wheelchair to move through
the world.
Another example might be somebody who experiences
a traumatic brain injury, and their reality
might be dramatically different if they have
a supportive family or a partner in their
life, versus if they have few people that
are in their close inner circle.
So, how they’re able to manage their traumatic
brain injury may depend on who is in their
life and who is not.
So, some issues around language substitution.
I encourage you to mentally substitute languge
that fits you or people that you serve.
Of course, when we have an interactive time,
I welcome you to use the language that you
find appropriate and that fits for you as
long as it’s respectful.
So this is--when the screen refreshes, you’ll
see one of the images from the Espavo Project,
so this couple and the quote with it.
So let me talk a little bit about some overview
framework.
And some of you who have been on webinars
before have probably seen and heard these
concepts before, but--The first one is about
“master status”, and this concept was
put forward in the 1940s by Everett Hughes,
and then talked again about in 1954 by Gordon
Allport in his book Nature of Prejudice, and
he labeled it “the label of primary potency”.
Both of these terms refer to the tendency
of people to believe that one label or demographic
category is “more significant than any other
aspect of [that person’s] background, behavior,
or performance.”
So how this commonly plays out for trans people
is that providers learn that a client is transgender
and presumes, for example, that all medical
conditions are related to being transgender,
that being trans has caused the sexual assault,
that all relationship strains are due to being
trans, that any type of job loss or hardship
is caused by being trans.
Those could go on.
The reality might be, though, that people
have medical conditions that are totally unrelated
to being transgender.
People may have relationship struggles because
they have poor communication skills or many
other reasons.
People may lose their job because they don’t
show up or they don’t perform well in a
work setting.
So this concept is going to be especially
important to us today, when we look at disability
and transness and trauma.
Master status thinking, as you can see, could
be applied to all of these things.
Avoiding this form of pigeonholing and limiting
people to just one part of who they are is
going to be a central theme of what we talk
about today.
So the terms paradox is another thing that
many of you may be familiar with if you’ve
been on one of our Trans 101 webinars.
We believe it’s really important to talk
about here since the terms paradox is not
specific to trans-only content, but also relates
to the richness of human experience.
The terms paradox teaches us that, on the
one hand, identity labels and the like are
absolutely crucial.
To be culturally competent, we need to find
out what terms a person uses and then refer
to them and reflect back those terms.
This use of a client’s terms, obviously,
shows them that we’re respecting who they
are and respect their right to self-define.
The paradox is that particularly in the trans
community, the terms that people use are often
meaningless to what we really need to know
to better serve that client.
The reasons why terms are often meaningless
for service provision is that the same term
can often mean radically different things
to different people.
The other reason that terms in general are
meaningless is that the services you’re
going to be providing to your clients are
likely not going to be focused on their identity;
but are rather going to be focused on this
constellation of their experiences, their
needs, their symptoms, and much more.
[pause] So we’d like to ask you to interact
a little bit.
Let me just see if I can set up this poll
while we move forward.
So, on the screen, you should see in a second
a poll that asks you, “Have you worked with
a client who is transgender?
Have you worked with a client who is trans
and disabled?
Have you worked with a client who is trans
and a survivor?
Or, have you worked with a client that’s
trans, disabled and a survivor?”
So if people could click the radio button--I
know that we’ve got a lot of people with
really different experiences here.
Great.
Some people look like they’re voting, which
is excellent.
Thank you.
[pause]
So hopefully you’ll see on the screen that
a lot of folks have [audio cuts out]...people
who are trans and survivors, and it looks
like a lot of people have worked with trans
survivors, and so very few people have worked
with people who are trans, disabled, and survivors.
So thanks for participating in that.
[pause]
So let’s move on and talk a little bit about
intersections.
Nearly all the content that we’ll be talking
about today focuses on intersections, so intersections
between different types of identities, different
experiences, different types of access.
You’ll hear not only about transness and
disability and trauma intersections, but also
other variables that might influence how a
person defines themself, the choices that
they have around healing, and around their
resilence.
So we wanted to mention one literary inclusion
that people may be interested in, and that
is Eli Clare, who’s a poet and author and
activist, and he speaks around the country
on the intersections of transness and queerness
and bodies and disability and a lot more.
And he is--there are two books that he’s
written, that are on the screen that you can
see, and one of them--the older book, Exile
& Pride--he actually has some freely downloadable
mp3 files on his website, at eliclare.com.
So we encourage you to maybe take a look at
those, and listen, because I think that he
does a really excellent job of looking at
the intersections of transness and disability.
And Loree’s going to take us through the
next section on data.
>> Loree: Hi.
We are going to share just a small amount
of data on the rates of violence transgender
and gender non-conforming people experience,
and then talk a little more about the rates
of disability in the lives of transgender
individuals.
For the sake of time, we’ve not included
the data sources on the slides, but we’d
be happy to share them with anyone who is
interested.
To frame the next few slides on data, this
quote from the National Transgender Discrimination
Survey, a survey of over 6400 trans people,
highlights the pervasiveness of trauma and
hardship in trans people’s lives.
“Transgender and gender non-conforming people
face injustice at every turn: in childhood
homes, in school [settings] that promise to
shelter and educate, in harsh and exclusionary
workplaces, at the grocery store, the hotel
front desk, in doctors’ offices and emergency
rooms, before judges and at the hands of landlords,
police officers, health care workers, and
other service providers.”
Let’s take a moment to talk about where
there is substantial overlap in the lives
of trans people and people who live with disabilities.
22% of transgender people have been denied
the use of a restroom at work.
They weren’t allowed to use a bathroom that
aligned with their current gender identity
and expression.
How many people living with physical or other
disabilities cannot access restrooms?
Are all bathrooms accessible?
Are they in the same building, or conveniently
located?
We anticipate that these rates may be very
similar, and it’s a challenge and barrier
faced by both trans and disabled people.
41% of trans people have been asked inappropriate
or invasive questions.
Often, these questions focus on surgical status,
their “realness” as a man or a woman,
how they have sex, or other very personal
questions.
At the same time, how many people living with
disabilities have been asked inappropriate
or invasive questions?
Again, the inappropriate questions will likely
focus on bodies, how their body works, what
their body is capable of, questions that wouldn’t
typically be asked of people who are not living
with a disability.
We guess that these rates, too, are quite
comparable.
When someone is visibly trans, their rate
of violence is two to eight times higher than
those who are not visibly trans.
When others can see something about us that
they perceive to be different, there tends
to be higher rates of violence.
For people living with disabilities that are
visible to others, how much higher are their
rates of violence and their vulnerability?
We’ve just given several comparisons of
what is similar between trans people and people
with disabilities: barriers to accessing restrooms,
being asked invasive questions, and increased
violence when their differences are visible.
We’re asking you now in the question box,
“What else do you think is similar between
people who are trans[gender] and people who
are disabled?”
Any thoughts?
[pause].
“Job discrimination.”
[pause] “Employment discrimination, barriers
in employment, relationships difficulties,
social discrimination, people being ‘too
helpful’, looks given by other, experience
of stigma in general, access to IDs.”
There’s some great ideas coming up here.
Thank you.
[pause]
We have many other archived webinars that
go into greater detail about the scope and
nuances of violence trans and gender non-conforming
people face.
But we want to talk about a few more.
Based on multiple studies, it is commonly
believed that over 50% of trans people have
experienced sexual violence at some point
in their lives.
You may want to consider how this compares
to the general non-trans population, where
one in three girls and women, and about one
in six boys and men, have experienced sexual
violence.
It’s important to note here, too, that non-transgender
people living with disabilities experience
higher rates of sexual violence than people
without disabilities.
It is highly likely that trans people who
live with disabilities may also have increased
rates of sexual violence compared to trans
people who are not living with disabilities.
Rates of intimate partner violence are roughly
the same for people of all gender identities
and sexual orientations.
However, there is some newer research that
is suggesting that rates might be higher for
trans and lesbian/gay/bisexual people, but
we don’t yet have conclusive data on that.
This next chart is added, not to show prevalence
rates for each of these categories, but to
help solidify the concept that trans people
experience multiple forms of violence, abuse,
and assault across their lifetime.
This data is from a 2011 study that FORGE
conducted.
We had over 1000 valid transgender respondents.
This particular question was a little bit
of a throwaway question for us.
It was a piece of demographic data we collected
on a survey that was about something else.
We asked people to simply check the box if
they had experienced any of these forms of
violence.
What this chart means is that 84% of people
who said that they had ever been stalked also
experienced at least one other form of the
violence listed--so, domestic violence, dating
violence, sexual assault, child sexual assault.
Again, this chart indicates that trans people
are experiencing multiple forms of violence
and multiple types of violence at very high
rates.
We’ll move next to talking about some specific
data related to trans people and disability.
Multiple studies indicate that between 31
and 43% of trans people are living with one
or more disabilities.
This compares to the general population rate
of around 20%.
In a 2004 survey that FORGE conducted, we
determined that of those trans people living
with disabilities, 53% reported having only
one disability, but 47% had two, three, or
more more conditions.
We also asked about what types of disabilities
people were living with.
Nearly a half reported a mental health condition.
33% had physical conditions or injuries.
A wide range of conditions were included in
this category.
We broke out auto-immune and endocrine conditions
because they were the highest cited of physical
disabilities.
14% of our respondents reported auto-immune
conditions like fibromyalgia, lupus, multiple
sclerosis, chronic fatigue, etc. 4% of respondents
classified being transgender as a disability.
3% did not share enough details about their
disability for us to classify them.
We also asked survivors if the violence they
experienced caused any long-term health implications,
and this was specifically around sexual abuse.
15% had permanent physical scarring as a result
of the sexual abuse or assault they sustained.
10% had long-term medical conditions which
they didn’t define as a disability.
4% noted that they had long-term disabilities
as a direct result of the violence they experienced.
Another 13% answered “Other” to this question,
and their write-in answers included things
like vaginal or cervical damage, painful scar
tissue, infertility, chronic migraines, prolapsed
rectum, PTSD, agoraphobia, and other forms
of long-term medical condition that were not
otherwised categorized.
HIV isn’t necessarily a disability, but
it’s worth noting that trans people have
a disproportionately high rate of HIV versus
the general population.
HIV, of course, can have substantial health
impacts, especially if it is not treated.
Many transgender people do not have health
insurance, and many are living at or below
the poverty line, which may make it difficult
for them to access health care and treatment
for HIV.
The result is more substantial health challenges,
and even fatality.
Receiving mental health care against a person’s
will isn’t a disability either, but it indicates
that some people are treated as if they had
a mental health condition, when their mental
health may actually be quite healthy.
9% of our 2004 survey respondents indicated
that they had received mental health services
against their will.
This statistic can be particularly important
when comparing it to the rates of violence
trans people experience, and the relationship
between healing and accessing mental health
services.
Individuals who were forced to receive mental
health care may be far less likely to proactively
seek care following abuse or assault, or for
any other reason.
This leads us to the startling last slide.
41% of trans people have attempted suicide.
For African American trans people, the rate
is 49%.
This is a profound difference compared to
1.6% of the general population who have attempted
suicide.
That’s the end of our statistics.
michael, I’m turning it back to you.
>> michael: Thank you.
And I’m just going to pause for a second
while I set up the interview with Joe, and
this interview is around 40 minutes, 45 minutes,
so it’s fairly long, but it’s really rich
with information.
As we set it up, I want to warn people that
the volume might be a little bit louder than
what you’re experiencing right now, so please
feel free to adjust your volume if you need
to.
[pause]
Joe, thanks for being with us today and joining
us on the disability and trans and trauma
webinar.
I’m wondering if we can just start with
you telling us a little bit about who you
are.
>> Joe: Sure.
My name is Joe, and I’m 46 years old.
I have three children, currently age 23, 12,
and 8 years.
My 23-year-old is doing well working in Chicago
now, and my two younger children live for
most of the year with my ex-husband and his
wife in the Midwest.
I spend about 14 weeks a year with them, but
I live in a downtown area outside of Los Angeles,
California with my male partner.
>> michael: That’s great.
Thank you.
And I’m wondering if you can tell me a little
bit--share with us a little bit about your
gender, your gender identity, your gender
expression, how you view your gender and your
gender history.
>> Joe: Sure.
I do identify as male, I really always have,
and I appear male in my presentation to the
world.
However, I began this life with female-appearing
anatomy, and was raised and treated as a girl--as
female--for the first 37 years of my life.
At that point, for a number of reasons, I
was very very ready to transition medically,
so I did do a medical transition starting
about 8-9 years ago.
Now it feels a little bit more in the past,
so I do just mostly identify as male, rather
than a transsexual male, but that is part
of what my history is.
>> michael: Great.
Thank you.
And I know when we talk about disability,
that can mean a lot of different things to
different people, and so I’m wondering if
you can just tell me a little bit about what
your relationship is with disability, what
kinds of things that you live with, and how
it affects your life.
>> Joe: Sure.
Technically, I’m actually on total and permanent
disability and receive SSDI.
The basic summary--and I’ll get into just
a little more detail so that people can have
some context with me--is that most of what
I deal with is pretty invisible.
I have a very sensitive body and sensitive
metabolism.
I have also been given diagnoses of anxiety,
PTSD, ongoing major depressive disorder.
And then I have continued to have very severe
allergies to chemicals, such as fragrances
that often people have in their laundry detergent,
pesticides.
So I deal with those pieces.
And then I was in a pretty serious car accident
in 1995 and had a brain injury there, and
still have some deficits in cognitive functioning
from that that I need to deal with.
So kind of how all of that comes together
is that I need some supports around me to
function well and stay relatively stable,
so I have a case manager, and then I have
a separate person who’s a representative
payee who handles all of my money, and off
and on I’ve had therapists over the last
25-30 years to help me process some of the
emotional and mental parts of things.
I am still taking some medication around some
of that.
And then most recently--and I know I haven’t
mentioned this as much to you; we’ve been
in contact before about other things--but
I have a newer diagnosis that might subsume
some of the others and might actually help
some of this to improve and help the brain
injury to continue to heal, and that’s that
I seem to have a hard time processing certain
parts of the light spectrum.
It’s something called Irlen Syndrome.
So, I’ve known for a long time that I have
visual processing challenges, and I do a lot
of low vision things in my home and in my
life to take care of myself--some of what
blind people might need to do--and so I’m
hoping that with the new filters I’m going
to be getting from that diagnosis soon, that
I’m going to have a little bit more relief
and maybe be able to function a little bit
better.
Anyway, I’m often dealing with a number
of things that aren’t terribly visible to
people
>> michael: Right.
Right.
And it sounds like you’ve got a wide variety
of things going on for you that are--some
have been short-term, some are longer-term,
some are more visible, some are less visible,
some are more treatable, some are less treatable.
So it sounds like you’ve got a really big
mix of what you’re dealing with on a day-to-day
basis.
>> Joe: Yes.
>> michael: Yeah.
I’m wondering if there have been intersections
that have been especially either joyous or
painful or any other emotion when you think
about your life in terms of either transness--your
trans history--and disability.
So, what have the hard things been?
What have the easy things been?
Anything you’d like to share about that
relationship between transness and disability.
>> Joe: Sure.
Sure.
That’s actually a great question, michael.
I’ve been thinking about this for a little
while, and I have a list of some things.
I’ll start talking down some of them in
the list, and then maybe you can prompt me
if you have more questions about some of them.
>> michael: That’s perfect.
>> Joe: Yeah.
Yeah, they really do relate, and I know for
some people it might be kind of hard to see
that, initially.
So, I do want to give some examples--so I’ll
try like that.
I think--as I thought about talking to you
about it today, I think some of the core is
really some of my co-dependence issues, I
would say, for lack of better terms, that
I took in both from the culture and from the
family I grew up in.
I grew up in the Midwest, most of the time
in a wealthier suburb, and took in some co-dependent
issues of not really listening to or trusting
my own sense, or my own voice in things.
Let’s see.
So, I feel like that comes up here and there,
and the root has been to work on some co-dependence
issues, for myself.
And I saw, to some extent, both the transness
and the disability have been invisible a lot
of my life.
Except maybe a little bit in the middle of
my transition when I looked more androgynous,
I’ve always looked either very female or
now I look very male.
And then my disability issues have been invisible.
So it can cause all sorts of social challenges
to feel that invisibility in different situations.
Even now--sometimes now, women will start
to tell stories--I was in an art class last
year for a while, and the women in the room
were telling stories about men that they were
with, and they would keep referring to me
as in this group of men that made them uncomfortable
or men that didn’t understand them, and
I wasn’t at a point where it made sense
to come out as transgender that day, so--partly
with my anxiety, partly different things,
it’s just not always the time for me to
come out.
And so, emotionally that was actually kind
of an upsetting day in some ways, because
I was so invisible to them, who I am.
It’s kind of like there’s separate pots--I
was coming up with this image--it’s almost
like there’s a stove with different burners,
and it feels like the transness can be on
one burner in a pot, the disability’s on
another burner, or maybe even two.
And then the other piece I guess I’ll bring
in is that some of the trauma that I grew
up with in my past.
Maybe I’ll just talk a little bit about
that right now, before I go on.
>> michael: That’d be great, yeah.
>> Joe: Yeah.
I’ve worked on it a lot.
I was fortunate--I’m 46 now, and I got help
starting when I was 19, and so I feel very
fortunate for that, but my childhood was one
with a lot of terror in it, and a lot of fear,
and a lot of abuse, primarily from my mother,
and it ended up that she did a number of things
that I found out later were sexually abusive,
with making me kiss her to checking my body
or making me touch her or touching me in ways
that were absolutely not appropriate.
And my father traveled a lot for work, so
he wasn’t around much.
And then I think she had some mental health
issues that weren’t being handled, so when
she was stressed, she tended to get physically
abusive.
So between all that, it felt like a very challenging
childhood.
And before--as I’ve kind of looked at all
these topics together before I could really
start looking at some of the trans issues
in my life more seriously, or even some of
the disability issues, I had to start coming
to terms with that.
So when I was 19, luckily, I could get some
help with that, because I had ended up in
a pretty awful abusive first relationship
in college, not surprisingly, where I experienced
what might be termed as “date rape”, but
over and over and over again.
I just kept still going back to him and having
a hard time advocating for myself and even
sorting out the situation.
>> michael: Right, that makes a lot of sense.
>> Joe: Right.
So, that’s another pot on that stove--to
go back to that analogy.
[laughs]
>> michael: I love that analogy, too.
Yeah.
>> Joe: You know?
Yeah.
And that, to me, too--that’s almost like
the spicier pot, or the pot that really has
to be watched the most, because when the trauma
starts to get out of control, that’s when
I can get hurt easily, I can do things that
hurt myself, or just makes me a lot more vulnerable.
So when that pot is kind of [laughs] managed,
then I feel like I can look at what’s in
the other pots, and maybe the transness is--almost
more like ae vegetables [both laughing].
I mean--
>> michael: Right--
>> Joe: --more healthy for me, right?
>> michael: Right.
>> Joe: It’s safe and healthy for me to
just express who I am, almost like my eye
color, or just the fact of what I might want
to watch on television.
It’s not a complicated topic like the pot
with all the trauma has been.
>> michael: [laughs] Hm.
I love that analogy, and I just--I’m really
playing with it in my head.
I think that’s just a brilliant analogy.
Where would you--what kind of a pot is the
disability?
>> Joe: Ha!
That’s a good one.
That’s probably in between, because there’s
times it can be a little dangerous.
It’s got some spices that don’t always
mix.
It’s probably like a soup of some sort.
[both laughing]
>> michael: Okay, that’s great.
That’s great.
>> Joe: Like a stew.
A stew!
Because over time, I will say, there’s been--with
a lot of perspective, I can see the--say,
the car accident I was in, where my brain
changed and I didn’t have the memory I used
to have, and I didn’t have some of the executive
function I used to have.
The good part about that is, my poetry has
gotten stronger and better, my sensitivity
to my children and to my friends and my heart
has really opened more.
So, in the really big scheme of things, it’s
actually something that’s given me positive
things and healthy things that I might not
have gotten otherwise.
>> michael: Isn’t that amazing, when we
can have something really good come out of
something that started as really negative
or really bad?
I think that’s amazing.
>> Joe: Yes, I think a lot of things in life
are that way, but it sometimes just takes
a very long time to integrate-- [both laughing]
>> michael: Right--
>> Joe: --the experience, and feel the pain,
and absorb the trauma or whatever, and actually
be able to see, “Oh, actually, this is good,
this is what it...[unclear]”
>> michael: Right.
Right.
>> Joe: I’ll try to get there but--
>> michael: Right.
>> Joe: [unclear]...so--
>> michael: It does.
>> Joe: Just kind of looking a little bit
down this list--
So, here’s another example of just some
of the challenge of being in the world and
dealing with the transness piece, say, and
the disability piece, because sometimes--I’m
doing pretty well with my words today, but
my word retrieval was affected by that accident.
And if I’m at all tired or caught by surprised--say,
startled?--I sometimes have a hard time with
my language.
And sometimes out in the world, even on the
street--you know, I’m in the LA area, so
even on the street, or a man I know here as
a friend--men express their affection through
teasing each other, through insults or through
jabs, and that still tends to set me off a
bit.
Women don’t ever do that, right?
For the most part, that’s not how they express
affection as much.
They give each other compliments.
>> michael: That’s interesting, yeah.
>> Joe: So, at least for me, there’s been--and
I know it’s a generalization to say this,
but I guess to some extent, I find situations
like that more challenging now these days,
because I look like I’m doing okay, but
I can’t always verbalize on the spot in
the moment to take care of myself or to join
in.
I can’t always process things.
>> michael: Right.
Well, and I’m sure that your level of invisibility
or feeling invisible doesn’t add to a positive
result with that either, so if you feel invisible
and you can’t retrieve the words that you
want, that must feel even harder, sometimes.
>> Joe: Right.
Right.
Right.
Right.
It’s a kind of scary feeling to know the
words inside of you, but not be able to get
them out--
>> michael: Mm-hm.
>> Joe: --and, again, this is a place where
having some really good therapists over the
years has been very helpful.
They’ve sometimes given me some phrases
to use, or just supporting me through that
process.
>> michael: Right.
>> Joe: Or, I know some of your audience today
would be--if I’m not mistaken--therapists
or people who are working with--people dealing
with these issues, transgender people or disabled
people or people who’ve dealt with trauma.
>> michael: Right.
Yep.
Therapists, advocates--but yeah, I know that
what you and I talked about ahead of time
was a little bit more around the therapy angle,
and I think that that’s really appropriate
to go with that, as well as--I think that
the role of advocates oftentimes kind of overlaps
with the realm of therapy sometimes.
>> Joe: Okay.
>> michael: Yeah.
>> Joe: Sure.
Sure.
Let’s see.
So...I guess maybe we could talk about--for
now, maybe we could jump to just what some
things would be that services providers could
do to prepare themselves to deal with clients
who are dealing with these intersections.
>> michael: Sure.
That’s a good place to move to.
Sure.
>> Joe: Okay.
Because I think it is challenging.
And just some disclosure is--I’m not sure
if you know this about me--but back in the
mid-’90s, I did go through--it was a two-year
training to be a Certified Spiritual Counselor.
You trained in something called yogic breathwork,
which was using different types of breath
to help with meditation and to help with releasing
trauma.
So it’s probably not the same training as
someone who maybe has a Masters in Family
Therapy would have, but some of it might overlap,
and some of what they were explaining--and
I think it’s true here--is what seems to
be most helpful, is if a therapist can somehow
come to whatever situation--and for me I know
that this has been true--when a therapist
can come to meet with me and, even if they
might be overwhelmed, not tell me that they’re
overwhelmed, but really just sit with that
feeling of “overwhelmed” quietly, and
then just listen to my story and help draw
the story out with some good questions.
>> michael: Right.
>> Joe: Because I’ve sometimes run into
therapists who have felt badly that they maybe
weren’t very completely fluent in disability
issues, or they weren’t fluent in the transgender
issues, and really I’ve found that someone
who’s a therapist may not have experience
in every one of those areas, but they may
still be able to work with an ability to kinda
just set aside the fact that they maybe don’t
know, and just quietly listen and maybe don’t
go with whatever I was presenting--
>> michael: Mm-hm.
>> Joe: Because really, it comes back to what
I said before.
I feel like I lost my voice at an early age,
and so now it’s been a lot of years to undo
some of that trauma and be able to start to
speak again--speak where your own truth is.
>> michael: Well, yeah, and I think that is
so true for so many survivors, and it’s
just really hard for us to find our voice
again, after it’s been damaged or lost for
so long.
And I think what you just mentioned about
therapists, and do they know enough, and is
there some explaining that’s going on--obviously
I care a lot about people being trained, because
that’s my job, is to help train people--but
what I oftentimes tell people is that it’s
really not how much training you’ve had,
but it’s like, can you listen to somebody?
Can you believe them?
Can you be present for them?
Are you open to hearing whatever they share
with you?
And it sounds like that’s what you’re
kind of saying, too, is that that’s really
the important part, and the excuses and the
explanations are really detracting from what
you need.
>> Joe: Yeah, I mean, I think so.
I mean, for me, an analogy is--I was thinking
about this earlier today when I was preparing
for this call--when I was around 16 years
old, I went and was an exchange student in
France for a while.
And I had already studied French, so [laughs]
that was helpful, so I arrived having some
understanding, and I got more fluent much
more quickly because I was with a family there,
but I remember feeling like the experience
there was so different than what some of my
other friends might have known, or just what
I had lived so far.
There were some parts of it that were very
different, and I lived with a very liberal
family there, where I had been living with
a very conservative family, my family of origin,
and so it kind of gave me this whole other
perspective.
I remember coming back home, and I found I
had some friends who could really hear me
and hear some of the stories and listen, and
others kind of shut me down.
I remember it was such a gift when some of
them wanted to just hear the stories, and
I could tell them, and it felt like they were
able to grasp this travel to this other land
without having gone themselves and I guess
I think some of this, in a way, is almost
that simple, in that it’s not necessary
that someone would have traveled to France
to hear my stories about what my time was
like there, but it is necessary that they
were quiet enough to listen, without preconceptions.
>> michael: Exactly.
>> Joe: --just try to let go of whatever might
have kept my voice from sharing its story.
>> michael: Mm-hm.
And I think that a lot of times, when people
are skilled in a profession--whether it’s
a therapist or a physician or an advocate--I
think that sometimes people make it more complicated
than it needs to be, and I’m not diminishing
the training or the skill that people have--
>> Joe: Right.
>> michael: --but, like you’re saying, it’s
fairly simple what you need, or what other
people need, which is just to be listened
to, and heard.
>> Joe: Right.
Right.
>> michael: It’s not always as simple--
>> Joe: --not hearing overwhelmed.
Right, and--
>> michael: Right.
>> Joe: --I guess one story I’ll share--I’m
pretty sure she’s not listening, but--my
therapist about seven, eight years ago, who--she
was lovely in a lot of ways, but I remember
every single time I came in, I would start
with whatever I was trying to share, and I
was definitely into medical transition then,
and so there were some things I was processing
around that.
I had very big allergy and health issues,
and at that point in time, I was starting
out in this parenting group, and--I mean,
truthfully, I ended up feeling kind of frustrated
in that situation because she told me almost
every time that I was there--she just kept
saying, “Well, you just have such a full
plate.
You just have to notice how full your plate
is.”
And that might have been helpful one time,
or two times, but I think I heard it easily
ten or fifteen times, and I started to realize--I
think she didn’t know what else to do wth
me, and she couldn’t hear beyond, “This
is what’s on the plate..
And at some point I stopped seeing her and
I found a different therapist, because I needed
to be able to actually take a little section
of the plate and pick it apart and look at
it--which really, to me, would be a skilled
therapist’s job, you know?
And she was stretching the best she could--she’d
never had a transgender client--but in the
end, I felt like I didn’t really get my
needs met--
>> michael: Uh-huh.
>> Joe: --and so I guess it’s another example
of that, just being present for what’s trying
to surface, rather than seeing the whole picture
and saying, “Oh my god, that’s too much
for anyone to deal with.”
>> michael: Right.
And I think it’s--
>> Joe: And I remember--
>> michael: Go ahead.
>> Joe: Go ahead.
>> michael: Yeah, no, go ahead.
>> Joe: Oh [laughs] I was just going to say,
a number of transgender people I’ve known
over the years--I think some of us do have
this experience, where it’s almost like
everything in our life--, it’s almost like
everything in your life thrown in a swimming
pool, and we had to go back in and pull it
back out.
>> michael: Mm-hm.
>> Joe: And it’s like, things can get really
turned around if you’re in the middle of
medical transition, or a transition--but looking
at it and just getting overwhelmed isn’t
going to help as much as, say, getting told,
“Let’s handle these few pieces today.”
>> michael: Right.
>> Joe: And get some relief there.
>> michael: And I think what you pointed out
is, a lot of times if we’re in a vulnerable
space or if we’re seeking help, it’s really
hard to say to somebody, “No, I really need
this from you,” and I think it’s a good
client sense to say, “This is what I need,”
but that’s hard to do, especially if the
provider keeps on acting in the same kind
of way.
That’s not very helpful.
>> Joe: Sure.
>> michael: So that’s kind of--
>> Joe: Sure.
>> michael: You know, I’d like to go back
to something that you mentioned before, if
you’re willing to talk a little bit more
about it.
You talked about your training in breathwork,
and I know that a lot of times, people heal
in lots of different ways, and I’m wondering
if you would be willing to talk about breathwork
or bodywork or how that’s been useful in
your process of healing, both with disability
issues and trans issues and trauma issues.
How has it been helpful in any of those areas?
>> Joe: Sure.
I think, overall, it’s helped a lot.
Let’s see, I started out--I think around
age 20 or 21--somehow I got the idea through--it
was probably through reading a book on healing
or something that might help me to get massage,
and so that’s what I started with.
And I remember--I went to a health club, and
it was just [laughs] very clean and proper
and white--
>> michael: Mm-hm.
>> Joe: --and I saw a woman who was a therapist,
a massage therapist who had been a nurse--because
I just--I was very anxious at my first session.
And I remember her telling me over and over
that my body was tense, and I couldn’t feel--I
couldn’t even feel what she meant, and she
just kept trying to be nice, but telling me
to let go with my head or my arm, and I don’t
think I got it at all, but I remember just
knowing that I wanted to learn what it was
like to have healthy touch, touch with good
boundaries from a female, and I wanted to
heal, and I would sometimes have to go to
the massage session and then a week or so
later go talk about it in therapy, and so--
>> michael: Right.
>> Joe: --it really was interwoven for a lot
of years until some of that trauma got out
of my muscles and out of my body.
And I even had some sessions in the breathwork
in particular, where I would end up feeling
some of the feelings of what it had felt like
when my mother had touched me, when I often
was actually telling her I didn’t want to
be touched, and she was doing things that
didn’t feel good, and--not the good kind
of affection, but actually a very icky kind
of feeling.
But I was able to start shaking and feeling
the fear from that, and how scared I was to
learn to use my voice, through doing some
of the different breathwork types with a safe
practitioner there to support me and be with
me and say--basically affirmations, and support
me in having the boundaries I needed, either
“Touch me softly on my shoulder” or “not
touch me, but be near me while I try to address
this.”
I think it can be important.
The other thing that we did some in that breathwork
school, which could work for some people,
is we would take pillows and actually scream
into a pillow or a towel, which--it took me
the longest time to do, because I had learned
so long ago to not let much sound out, to
not be very strong in my voice.
I had a very high and weak voice, and didn’t
use a lot of breath, so it was a good exercise
for me to start to learn to let sound out
somehow.
I do see that in people.
I eventually became a massage therapist, and
there are some clients who are just holding
their solar plexus in--for lack of a better
term, really.
They just--they became so afraid at such a
young age that their body is almost crunching
up.
And I don’t think it’s possible for just
psychotherapy to help in situations like that.
I think for most of us, it needs to be some
back and forth.
>> michael: Right.
And I think that’s why I was asking, because
I think that a lot of times so many of us
get focused on what’s traditionally available
in our Western culture, and when I think about
trans issues and disability issues and trauma,
I think about how bodies are medicalized in
all of those situations, or bodies are fetishized,
or--there’s a lot of things that happen
with bodies, and sometimes we have to process
what happens with our bodies through either
bodywork or breathwork or something that doesn’t
fall within the traditional Western medicine.
>> Joe: Right.
Well, artwork can be wonderful.
I did have --one of my early therapists I
had encouraged me to draw and then bring the
drawings in, and I was drawing pictures of
the trauma, drawingpictures of nightmares.
I think I drew some pictures even back then
that were kind of transgender-related as I
was trying to process it all, because I had
started really to process around the age of
19 or 20 around being transgender; I just
didn’t actually transition.
>> michael: Yeah.
>> Joe: Yeah, I think any tool that can connect
with someone is the right tool, you know?
>> michael: Mm-hm.
>> Joe: I think there’s so many ways sometimes
to get in with trauma.
It’s different for different people, is
what I feel like I’ve observed, and it’s
been different for me at different times in
my life.
Different things were the most I could do,
like the first time I went for that massage
and I was tense and I had my underwear on--[laughs]
>> michael: [laughing] Right.
>> Joe: --hardly letting them massage me!
It wasn’t really worth the money in that
way!
>> michael: Right, yeah!
Mm-hm.
>> Joe: --until later I really relaxed, and
I actually enjoy having someone help my body
do that.
>> michael: Right.
And that’s a typical thing, that we have
to take one step, but it seems like this really
small step or whatever, but obviously it’s
been effective for you, or you’re in a different
place now than you were then, which is really
good.
Can I circle us back a little bit to asking
about if you think that your transness and
disability and trauma--if there’s any correllation
or causation between any of those three?
>> Joe: Well, those are interesting questions.
Let’s see.
I do think that there is some correlation
in terms of--I have irritable bowel syndrome
at times, I have chronic exhaustion that comes
and goes worse and better at times; I can
tell that it’s very related sometimes to
my emotional state--
>> michael: Mm-hm?
>> Joe: --and, before I had transitioned,
some of that was much worse for me.
So I think the suppressing of who I was was
taking a toll in a very big way.
My allergies--all sorts of things improved
when I finally decided to transition.
>> michael: Okay.
>> Joe: I don’t think that means--I don’t
think that means that it was all caused--all
my allergies were caused by that--
>> michael: Right.
>> Joe: That would be a little--I do think
that the trauma in my daily life--I’m fairly
sure, from different things I’ve read, and
now with psychiatrists I’ve worked with--and
some of my understanding is that having that
much constant trauma as a child, where every
day I was scared, really close to every day
I was hit, really close to every day there
was some sexual abuse that I was trying to
get away from--I think that has affected how
my brain developed, and some of my anxiety
might still be related to that.
I’ll never know, because I think my brain
developed in this circle, where up until I
was thirteen, it was--
>> michael: Mm-hm--
>> Joe: --quite traumatic.
And my little sister, who I was able to kind
of keep away from a lot of that, seemed to
have a similar but yet a different brain,
if I could say it that way.
>> michael: Okay, yeah.
>> Joe: She has a little bit more stamina.
She has a little bit more ability to handle
stress.
And, for whatever reason, me being the oldest,
I took it on in a different way, I think.
>> michael: Right.
That makes a lot of sense.
And I definitely see how some things can be
really easily related.
And it’s--we obviously are people, and we
can’t have a double-blind study and say,
“Well, what would happen if--” [laughs]
>> Joe: Right.
[laughs]
>> michael: “--if this wasn’t in the mix.”
So--
>> Joe: [laughing]
>> michael: --it’s a hard question.
I know it was kind of a subjective question
about how it might be caused or correlated,
but--
>> Joe: Or, one part of my story is that I
did delay my actual medical transition for
a good ten years, because I had a therapist
back in the ‘90s who was convinced that
the only reason I thought I was transgender
was because transgender was just deep self-hatred
because of the abuse from my mother.
So that was kind of an unfortunate therapist--
>> michael: Yeah.
>> Joe: --looking back, because it drove me
into some deeper depression.
It made my life a bit messier that I delayed
for as long as I did, I would say, because
really that was a lie, because I know from
age five that I was transgender, and I was
starting to want to transition in the later
twenties of my life.
It still would have been a little late, but
I think it would have been a gentler transition
than when I did it at 37, so--
>> michael: Yeah.
Yeah.
>> Joe: I think the world is changing now,
too.
I think it was less known back then.
So this psychologist actually was passing
on to me what she had learned--
>> michael: Mm-hm--
>> Joe: --in school--
>> michael: Mm-hm.
Right.
>> Joe: For me, I don’t think my transgender
piece is actually related to self-hatred.
I think it’s more just a fact of how my
brain is.
>> michael: Mm-hm.
>> Joe: So--
>> michael: Right.
And I think that this is where--certainly
I don’t know what your therapist was thinking,
at that point in time, but I think that a
lot of times people think that that’s really
true, as providers, and they feel like they
need to say that, and that can be really really
damaging to the person sitting across the
desk, when they hear that.
>> Joe: It was.
I mean, without sounding too dramatic, I still
probably would say that it really risked my
life, because I ended up getting so severely
depressed and so much more suicidal after
that, as I kept thinking, “Well, I have
to work more and more and more--”
>> michael: Right--
>> Joe: “on this, really getting to the
bottom of this,” even though I had already,
at that point, spent a good eight or nine
years working on recovering from that traumatic
childhood, so I’d really already gotten
a good leg up, and it wasn’t an appropriate
trauma [unclear].
>> michael: Right, and it doesn’t sound
like it was appropriate; it was really hard
and painful, and lingering.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I’m wondering where we should head next.
I know you’ve talked a little bit about
what would be ideal for providers, or what
you’d like providers to know, and I guess
I’m wondering if we could talk a little
bit more about if there have been things that
have been hard for you in working with providers.
So either a therapist, or any other kind of
medical or advocacy people.
Have there been things that they didn’t
get, or that you wish that they would have
gotten, or--that realm of what didn’t work
so well, so we can learn more from what didn’t
work well?
>> Joe: Sure.
Well, I would say--I mean, it seems obvious,
but it is a really basic one--using the wrong
gender pronoun with me?
I still have gotten that sometimes.
I had a--interestingly, a psychiatrist up
at the Gay and Lesbian Center in LA two years
ago, who--for whatever reason--I was sitting
in front of him with a full beard and I transitioned
years before--he kept calling me female pronouns
in front of his trainees he was with, and
I had to ask him five different times to call
me by the correct pronoun, and it just got
so distracting after the fifth session of
doing that, that I ended up having to find
a different psychiatrist.
It seems basic, and I understand sometimes
someone might be making a mistake or a slip-up,
but it’s so important to ask someone what
pronoun they’d like to be called, and then
just to use that--
>> michael: Right.
>> Joe: --in their presence.
And, referring to them with someone else in
the room, or whatever.
>> michael: Yeah, that’s pretty amazing.
>> Joe: It got so distracting distracting.
Yeah, it just got very distracting.
So, that’s basic.
I think--let’s see, what else?
To me, one of the biggest issues, I think--bringing
my partner in, when I’ve had a partner,
that’s always really helpful, and when a
therapist hasn’t wanted to do that, it’s
been harder for me.
I have enough challenges as it is, that I
would at least like to be with my partner
and--it’s just very helpful, whether it’s
a newer relationship or a relationship that’s
existed for a long period of time, I’ve
found it really helpful when they’ve tried
to include that person at least a little bit.
>> michael: Right.
Yeah.
And I know that one of the things that links
back to more of the disability piece--not
to try to fraction off your life into three
sections, but--I know sometimes you probably
need to go to the emergency room or you need
to seek urgent care--
>> Joe: Oh, right.
>> michael: --and I just--I wonder if you
could talk a little bit about being trans,
or having a trans history, and what happens
if you go into the emergency room, or you
can’t talk, or--
>> Joe: Sure--
>> michael: --some of those challenges.
>> Joe: Sure, yeah, actually--but that’s
a good point.
With some of my health challenges--sometimes
I had ended up having anaphylactic shock that’s
pretty severe, to the point where I--within
ten minutes, sometimes, even, am not able
to move.
I’m on the floor, my muscles weren’t working
anymore, so that meaning I can’t speak.
And so that means I’m transported in.
And luckily so far when this has happened,
the ordeal has been so bad I have had a partner
with me, when I’ve had to rely on them to
speak and communicate for me at that point,
because at that point I’m not physically
able to speak.
There’ve been other times when I had something
going on for a couple years where I was hyperventilating
a lot, and I couldn’t speak without making
that worse, so I needed my partner to be able
to speak for me.
And what was a little tricky was when I was
in between--kind of almost in between genders
as far as what the world saw.
I felt very vulnerable, because then--when
I was feeling so vulnerable in the hospital,
I could really tell a little bit how the person
was feeling, and in a small town hospital
I was in before I moved here, I could even
sense that they were talking about me, some
of the nurses.
And I’m not sure how much of it was negative,
but it certainly didn’t feel like a normal
thing.
It felt a little bit like I became a circus
show or something, and that just added to
the stress at that moment.
So, as much as possible, people need to keep
their own feelings in check if someone has
an appearance that’s surprising, or different
in some way, and then to allow the partner
to be able to speak, because there have been
times I just either am too much in my trauma--and
this hasn’t happened for some years, but
actually at times if I’m too much triggered
in my PTSD, it sorta links in with that brain
injury, and I might not be able to explain
to someone smoothly what’s going on.
So I either need to get my case manager on
the phone, which I’ve sometimes done, or
have my partner explain a little bit until
I can start to get back my words.
>> michael: Yeah, those are really good things.
>> Joe: --understand.
>> michael: Yeah.
>> Joe: Yeah.
>> michael: And I was thinking that it’s
really that you have a partner that is--or
have had partners that are willing to step
in, and can be that voice, but I know that
that’s not always a guarantee.
And it sounds like you’ve got a really good,
great relationship with a case manager that
can step in as well.
So those are two really useful and wonderful
things.
So--
>> Joe: Yeah.
It makes a difference.
Yeah.
The current case manager I have, I’ve had
for three years, and she’s just done a great
job at [laughs] listening to me, so hearing
where my limit needs to be, and she’ll encourage
me do some of my self-advocacy for myself,
but when I tell her I really can’t handle
it--we had a little probably with a TMJ consultation,
and they’d given approval, and they took
it away--
>> michael: Mm-hm--
>> Joe: --just a few little things happened
with insurance, and she picked up the ball
and kept handling it for me when I just started
to get so exasperated, and she is able to
come in with a little bit more of a level
head, and more ability to verbalize than I
sometimes have.
>> michael: Yes, and that’s really--I’m
really thrilled for you that that’s something
that’s in your repertoire, in your kitchen--I
keep on thinking about your pots on the--
>> Joe: Yep.
>> michael: --the stove--
>> Joe: [laughing]
>> michael: So the case manager has got to
be--I don’t know, maybe the stirrer or something.
>> Joe: [laughing]
>> michael: I’m not sure what she is.
Oh jeez. [laughing]
>> Joe: Wonderful.
She does an awful lot.
Yeah.
Yeah.
>> michael: Well, I’m wondering if, as we
close and wrap up today, I know you mentioned
a couple things before about what you would
like providers to know, or what are some of
the things that are useful--both to you, or
what you think might be useful to other people
who are trans, living with disability, and
have experienced trauma.
>> Joe: Sure.
I’m going to try to keep it somewhat simple.
I think there’s a few main things.
I think one thing--which is true for anyone
really, but I think it’s especially true
when you’re trying to support someone in
finding their empowerment again--is to focus
on someone’s strengths, to help them--I
know that’s helped me the most, when I’ve
had a therapist help remind me to look at
what’s going well and where my strengths
are in a situation.
That kinda ties into the second one, which
is to support their clients in releasing shame,
because really what can keep someone--I think--from
that feeling of empowerment is also a degree
of shame, whether it’s shame about being
transgender and how someone’s currently
perceived or all the things that can come
with that, or shame about the disability,
or shame about the trauma.
It’s taken me a lot of years to keep realizing
that whatever happened with my mother has
a lot to do with her own challenges and very
little to do with me, and to get to some perspective
and context I’m just letting the shame go.
It’s just a story, it’s just a fact at
this point in my life of what I’ve lived
through ,and that informs me, but it doesn’t
have to mean something about me.
It doesn’t have to mean I don’t get to
have a good life and good relationships in
my life.
>> michael: Exactly.
Yeah.
>> Joe: And I think, tied in with those things--because
to me I think we need to continue to get away
from that victim model--I think there’s
a time to really feel the feelings and move
through the victimization of something, but
to really move into a way to connect in the
world that works for the person--I’m still
working on that, somewhat, for myself, trying
to find--since I’m not currently able to
work, what I’d ideally like is to someday
having enough support around me that I could
work a job again at least part-time, but I
need a lot of support and I need a lot of
flexibility.
But even separate from that, I’ve been able
to start to find some art classes to jump
into.
I don’t go every week, I don’t go all
the time, but some way to break down--I think
there’s this feeling of disenfranchisement
and this feeling of alienation that someone’s
who’s transgender or transsexual by themselves--say,
growing up in this culture at this point--in
most cultures, there can be a feeling of isolation
if someone isn’t allowed to transition in
a more natural time frame.
I think there’s this disconnect that can
happen, and the more we can find a way to
connect in the world, I think that just helps
with it.
It builds on the strengths, because it doesn’t
do me a whole lot of good to--maybe I’m
good at something, but if it’s more of a
weakness or something I don’t enjoy, that’s
not actually going to help me get out of the
depression or the PTSD as much as for me going
to an art event or something, really connecting
things that really inspire me and get me excited,
and I have something better to think about
at night when I go to sleep, and hopefully
I won’t have the nightmares--
>> michael: Right.
Right.
>> Joe: --because of that, right?
>> michael: Yup.
>> Joe: --a person’s just volunteering somewhere
just to be busy--
>> michael: Right--
>> Joe: --which I don’t think that that’s
helpful.
>> michael: So it’s almost even talking
about--
>> Joe: Like, someone might--
>> michael: --making meaning in your life,
so connecting to the world in a way that’s--
>> Joe: Yeah--
>> michael: --meaningful to you, yeah.
>> Joe: Right, and I think it includes some
self-awareness, which, again, I think comes
from the strengths.
And I get more--it’s almost like a--I heard
someone use this analogy--but it’s like
the strengths could be like a knife, and we’re
sharpening that knife by building the strengths
so that we can get better and better and better
at the part that we love to do the most.
And so I’m still working on finding out
where that is, but I’m getting closer, and
it feels like that also helps the health part,
because obviously the neurotransmitters--everything
is improved when I’m doing something that
I connect that has meaninb.
>> michael: Mm-hm.
That makes so much sense.
>> Joe: --well, you want to add to that?
I mean, I feel like there’s probably things
I’m missing on that list, but--
>> michael: Well, I think--you know, I was
interested in what you had to say about it,
because that’s why we’re talking, is to
hear what you have to say about it.
[laughing]
>> Joe: [laughing] Yeah.
>> michael: And I just--I’m kind of struck
by--I think that those--the three things around
empowerment and building and focusing on strengths
definitely crosses all of the three--the trans,
the disability, and the trauma--and so does
the shame.
There’s so much shame that people feel around
transness or bodies, around disability and
bodies, or mental health issues, or around
trauma.
So, working on that shame is another just
vital piece.
And then, I think the third part that you
were talking about--I know you were kind of
talking about it in terms of getting away
from a victim model and connecting in the
world, and I heard a lot of pieces in there
about making meaning, and finding a purpose
and not just being busy for the sake of busy,
and again I think those are--
>> Joe: Right.
>> michael: That touches all of those areas
as well.
>> Joe: Right.
Right.
I think that’s one more lasting feeling,
and probably as a therapist you need to leverage
authority there too, to work with the resources
in the room--
>> michael: Mm-hm.
>> Joe: --and what the person comes in with,
which I think is an easier way to do therapy
anyway.
>> michael: Right.
>> Joe: Because that’s what happens.
The weaknesses will get built up if they need
to be, but if someone’s strengths keep going,
then it gets a little bit easier.
>> michael: Yeah.
Well, this has been really an enjoyable time
for me, and really informative, and I really
appreciate your vulnerability in sharing.
Is there anything that you’d like to add
before we close?
>> Joe: Sure.
I’m just grateful you’re doing this work.
No, I think that’s a lot of the basic--there’s
more little pieces of my story.
There’s more--I didn’t really touch on
some of the healing.
I guess I’ll mention just that I don’t
mean to make light of the fact that it took
a whole lot of years of healing around the
sexual abuse and the other abuse, to get that
to a point where it just felt like it doesn’t
affect my daily life as much, and I’m really
grateful for people who are doing that work
with people right now, because I think it’s--until
that trauma pot, I guess just--
>> michael: Mm-hm.
>> Joe: --maybe one more time, that trauma
pot is just so--
>> michael: [laughing]
>> Joe: --so important that we handle that,
and that we try to calm that down first, for
you to get it off the stove--
>> michael: Mm-hm.
>> Joe: --or whatever can happen [laughing]
to get the heat off of it--
>> michael: Exactly.
>> Joe: --we can enjoy the other things that
are coming along.
>> michael: Mm-hm.
>> Joe: I think my brain is starting to melt.
[laughing]
>> michael: [laughing]
>> Joe: I think--
>> michael: Maybe the heat got turned up a
little too high.
>> Joe: It is a vulnerable topic.
>> michael: Right, I know it is it is.
>> Joe: It is a vulnerable topic, and I so
appreciate your doing these seminars.
>> michael: I know it’s vulnerable, and
I can appreciate you being able and willing
to go there with me, and to share it with
other people.
So thank you very much.
>> Joe: Absolutely.
[pause]
>> michael: All right.
I’m glad that people are still with us,
and I’m glad that we got to listen to that
really rich story.
I’m going to flip this back to Loree in
just a second.
[pause] Loree, can you take us through the
rest of the slides?
>> Loree: Yes.
I’m also very glad that we could bring you
this interview with Joe.
As I hope you heard and saw in the slides,
Joe talked about many challenges that have
been difficult for him, many areas of what
has worked for him to bring healing and wholeness
into his life, as well as many suggestions
for people who are working with people who
might be transgender or gender non-conforming,
living with a disability or disabilities,
and who have experienced one or more traumatic
incidents in their life.
Before we open up for questions, we’d like
to leave you with a few take-home messages.
Circling back to the beginning of this webinar,
we talked about master status thinking.
As you could hear in Joe’s stories, he and
other survivors who are trans and living with
disabilities have many pots on their stoves.
There can be detrimental damage if we limit
people to just one identity.
When we expand and are able to see all of
the pots on their stoves, and differentiate
what is in each pot, we can start to work
with the whole person who is seeking our services
and support.
Again from the beginning of this webinar,
and illustrated many times throughout the
interview with Joe, if we can keep listening
to the people we are working with, and reflect
their words back to them, we will be able
to build strong connection and trust with
our clients.
We can then determine what questions we may
need to ask so that we can better serve them,
so that we can better understand their needs
and take appropriate action.
Survivors who are trans and living with a
disability will greatly benefit if you can
focus on three things: listening, believing,
and being present with them.
If you can do these three things, you will
likely not be making excuses like saying you
don’t know enough, or giving unnecessary
explanations and thereby spending the client’s
time while you are processing out loud, or
making things more complicated by believing
that what and who the client is is too much
for you to handle.
If we build on keeping in mind master status
thinking, the terms paradox, and the three
reminders on the previous slide--listening,
believing, and being present--these three
to-dos emerge fairly logically.
First, stay focused on the person’s strengths
and empowerment.
Second, help clients work to release shame.
Shame may be substantially compounded when
all three components are present--transness,
disability, and trauma.
[pause] Excuse me.
Third, help clients create meaning in their
lives by helping them connect.
Connecting can be to themselves, to their
bodies, to another person, to art, to a higher
power, or to anything that feels connecting
and meaningful to them.
michael?
>> michael: Thank you.
We would love to hear some questions, and
“hearing” means “typing them in the
question box”, and we’ll process them.
Loree’s going to scan back through and see
if we have any questions already asked, and
if you have new questions, we encourage you
to type them in the question box now.
>> Loree: michael, while we’re waiting for
new questions--there aren’t any old ones--could
you go back to slide 47 about our discussion
questions--
>> michael: Oh, yes.
>> Loree: --handout?
For those of you that are working in groups,
you may be interested in discussing the interview
that we had with Joe, and we’ve put together
some questions for you that is at this URL
that’s on the screen that you might want
to use to direct your own discussion with
a group.
I am not seeing anyone put in any questions,
so I want to encourage you again, if you have
questions or comments, to type them into the
question box while we’re all here and can
benefit from knowing--
Okay, I do have something here.
“Thanks to Joe for courageously sharing
his story, and yes, we agree that Joe was
very generous in sharing his story.”
[pause] “What are ways to respond when clients
disclose they are being discriminated against?”
michael, that’s a little bit vague, but
do you want to try and--
>> michael: Sure, I think--
>> Loree: Yes--
>> michael: --it is a little bit--it’s broad,
it’s a broad question, and I think that
clients might be discriminated against in
a lot of different ways, either because they’re
trans or because they’re disabled or because
they have a trauma history.
So I think it kind of depends on what profession
you’re in and what role you’re playing
in their life.
I know we really encourage agencies that do
direct service with clients to make sure that
there are policies in place that let all clients
know and all staff know that discrimination
of any kind is not tolerated, and have staff
trained in learning how to confront bias,
or confront those discriminatory statements.
>> Loree: Next question.
“Do you all feel that models like trauma-focused
CBT or cognitive processing therapy for trauma
work equally well with transgender clients?”
>> michael: Sure.
[laughs] The answer is, “sure”.
I think that people are people first, and
their transness may have less to do with what
approach works best for them than other components
of how their brain works.
We certainly know that EMDR works for some
people and it doesn’t work for other people,
CBT or DBT works for some people and not for
others, and I don’t think transness really
plays very much of a part in it.
Loree, do you think that’s fairly accurate,
or do you have a different--?
>> Loree: No, I think that is accurate.
The next question is, “How would you change
your approach when dealing with preteens and
teenage children?”
>> michael: Go ahead, Loree.
>> Loree: Certainly anytime you’re dealing
with trauma, I think that the general approaches
are good.
You need to follow the client’s lead in
terms of whether the client feels that their
trans identity--or their disability, for that
matter--has anything to do with the trauma
they experienced.
Obviously with younger children, you may need
to use play therapy or something else.
But off the top of my head, I wouldn’t say
that I would change my approach based on the
age of the client.
[pause] Next question.
“Do you know if there are any other agencies
besides FORGE who have done research on the
intersection of transgender and disability?
I’ve seen research on each community, but
not so much on them together.”
michael, can you comment on that?
>> michael: Yeah, I don’t know that a lot
of agencies have done explicit research on
the intersection of trans and disability.
There have been some larger studies that have
focused on other topics that have asked disability
questions.
Like, for instance, some of the data that
we showed was from the National Transgender
Discrimination Study, and they asked about
disability in there, but they didn’t really
compare that with trauma rates.
So, you could get data about victimization
from that survey, and I think some data about
disability in that survey.
I’m also thinking, Loree, maybe you could
talk about the CAP study, which I think talks
a little bit about some heath disparities,
but maybe not disability.
>> Loree: Yes, michael is referring to the
Caring and Aging with Pride study, which was
the first national study on LGBT aging issues
funded by the federal government.
It’s out of the University of Washington.
So it’s looking at older LGBT individuals,
and it did ask about disability as well as
gender identity and sexual orientation, so
that would be the Caring and Aging with Pride
study if you want to Google that.
>> michael: I think one more resource--which
is not about actual research done--on the
intersection, is the Vera Institute, and they
focus on trauma, different types of violence,
and disability.
And I don’t believe they have anything specific
about transness, but I do know that their
staff are very trans-informed and trans-inclusive,
and we worked a fair amount with them, so
I think they’re a good resource that would
be trans-sensitive if you had specific disability
questions or inquiries.
>> Loree: Okay.
The next question.
“How do you think that the trans community
and the disability community can work together
to help each other?”
I will take the first crack at this one.
One of the things that FORGE has used in a
lot of our trainings is the concept we borrowed
from the disability community of universal
design.
We argue that, just like buildings that are
made accessible to people with disabilities,
that those buildings actually serve a whole
range of people better.
We say that if your service deliver system
better meets the needs of the clients that
are most different, which could be people
with disabilities or people who are trans
or both, you’ll be better meeting the needs
of your whole range of clients.
So we’re borrowing concepts and trying to
reinforce that we’re all working toward
the same thing in both types of communities,
which is serving more people better.
michael, do you have another comment on that?
>> michael: No, I think that’s really a
good time--that might be a good place for
us to end, now that we’re a couple of minutes
away from the end of our 90 minutes.
I’d just like to remind people of a couple
of things before we officially close.
I am seeing that there are more questions
and I’d like to get back to people on those.
If we can do that in writing, that would be
a good solution.
>> Loree: [laughing] Let me take just one
more, please.
>> michael: Sure.
>> Loree: There’s someone that’s asking
whether our resources are available for providers
working on trans inclusion in hospital settings,
particularly sex-segregation issues.
If you will go to our website, we do have
some archived webinars, and also an article
that would be relevant to hospital settings,
although they’re not specific to hospital
settings, and that also address sex-segregated
issues.
michael, let me turn it back to you.
>> michael: Great.
Thanks.
I really appreciate everybody sticking with
us for the whole 90 minutes, and I just want
to remind everybody of a couple of things.
One is that the PowerPoints will be emailed
to you as a link, and you’ll receive that
email tomorrow if you’re in the office on
this long weekend, and the interview discussion
questions that Loree mentioned are also going
to be on the website where you signed up,
and that’s where you’ll find the archive
of the recording will be as well, and that
archived recording will be available generally
within 24 to 48 hours after it gets converted
and uploaded.
And the last two things are--one is, we really
value your feedback, and when we close the
webinar, you’re going to see an evaluation,
and we would really appreciate your comments
and feedback on what you heard today.
And the last thing is that next month we’re
not going to have an official webinar; we’re
going to have a Twitter chat, like I mentioned
at the beginning of the hour--90 minutes.
So I encourage you to join us.
The hashtag is #trans101.
And our Twitter handle--I think is the right
word--is @forgeforward, so I hope that we
see a bunch of you there on June 20th, which
is another Thursday, starting at 2 o’clock
Central Time, so the same time as this webinar
started.
So we really appreciate you all being here
today, and we hope to see you again.
Thanks very much.
>> Loree: Thank you.
