AS FAR AS THE COSMOS IS
CONCERNED THERE ARE BIGGER
QUESTIONS - AS FAR AS I'M
CONCERNED, NONE IS BIGGER THAN
'LIFE AFTER DEATH.'
WHENEVER A LOVED ONE DIES,
WHENEVER CHILDREN DIE,
WE CANNOT HELP BUT WONDER
- IS ANYTHING BEYOND?
ON THE ONE HAND, IT SEEMS ABSURD
THAT MY PERSONAL, CONSCIOUS
AWARENESS, HAVING COME TO
EXIST, WILL CEASE TO EXIST.
ON THE OTHER HAND, IT SEEMS MORE
ABSURD THAT MY MENTAL LIFE CAN
SURVIVE THE DEATH AND
DISSOLUTION OF MY BRAIN.
FOR AS LONG AS I REMEMBER
WONDERING ANYTHING, I REMEMBER
WONDERING THIS - IS DEATH FINAL?
I'M ROBERT LAWRENCE KUHN AND
CLOSER TO TRUTH IS MY JOURNEY
TO FIND OUT.
ARGUING THAT DEATH
IS FINAL SEEMS SIMPLE:
NO BODY - NO LIFE.
NO BRAIN - NO AWARENESS.
SURE, I'M OBSESSED WITH
THE ACCURACY OF THE ANSWER.
BUT I'M ALSO INTRIGUED HOW
THE QUESTION - IS DEATH FINAL,
PROBES HUMAN YEARNING
AND WAYS OF THINKING.
I PUT THE BURDEN OF PROOF ON
THOSE WHO CLAIM THAT CONSCIOUS
LIFE CAN SURVIVE DEATH.
BELIEVERS MUST MAKE THEIR
CASE THAT DEATH IS NOT FINAL -
OFFER EXPLANATION, PRESENT
EVIDENCE, MUSTER ARGUMENTS.
I START WITH AN OUTSPOKEN
THEOLOGIAN AND MEGA-CHURCH
PASTOR WHO TAKES THE
BIBLE SERIOUSLY, BUT CAN BUCK
TRADITION, GREG BOYD.
GREG, AS A THEOLOGIAN, I'M SURE
YOU BELIEVE IN THE AFTER LIFE -
I'D LIKE TO KNOW WHY.
IT SEEMS TO ME THAT EITHER LIFE
ENDS UP BEING THE MOST TRAGIC
STORY EVER TOLD OR THE
MOST BEAUTIFUL STORY EVER TOLD.
AND IF DEATH IS THE LAST WORD
IT'S JUST A TRAGIC STORY, GOOD
DOESN'T OVERCOME EVIL, ALL THE
THINGS WE HOPED FOR AND ASPIRE
TOWARDS AND DREAM OF
IT ALL COMES TO NOTHING.
THE SOLAR SYSTEM DIES A HEAT
DEATH, THE WHOLE UNIVERSE DIES A
HEAT DEATH, AND THAT'S IT.
AND THERE IS SOMETHING
IN THE HUMAN SPIRIT THAT
FINDS THAT OBJECTIONABLE.
WHAT I'M WONDERING IS WHY
DO WE FIND THAT OBJECTIONABLE?
WHY DO WE HUNGER FOR MEANING,
AN ULTIMATE MEANING, NOT JUST A
TEMPORARY MEANING, BUT
FOR OUR LIVES TO MATTER IN
THE LONG HAUL?
DOES THAT MEAN THAT JUST
BECAUSE WE HAVE THE HUNGER FOR
SOMETHING THAT THERE
WILL BE FOOD THERE?
ONE OF THE PIECES OF EVIDENCE
THAT THERE IS A CERTAIN KIND OF
FOOD OUT THERE IS THAT YOU'RE
CRAVING IT OR THAT YOU HAVE A
HUNGER FOR IT.
WHENEVER THERE ARE BEINGS
THAT HAVE A CERTAIN DESIRE OR A
LONGING THERE IS SOMETHING IN
NATURE THAT CORRESPONDS TO IT.
SO, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE SEX DRIVES
AND FORTUNATELY THERE'S SEX.
AND WE HAVE HUNGER DRIVES
AND FORTUNATELY THERE'S FOOD.
AND WE LONG FOR AIR AND
FORTUNATELY THERE IS AIR.
AND WE GET THIRSTY
AND FORTUNATELY,
YOU KNOW, THERE'S WATER.
IT WOULD BE ODD IF NATURE
EVOLVED BEINGS THAT ARE TOTALLY
OUT OF SYNC WITH NATURE.
HERE WE ARE PERSONAL BEINGS AND
WE HAVE A LONGING FOR MEANING
AND FOR PURPOSE.
WE HAVE A CONFIDENCE THAT GOOD
SHOULD OVERCOME EVIL THAT LOVE
SHOULD WIN IN THE END.
IF DEATH HAS THE LAST WORD ALL
OF THAT LONGING, THOSE DREAMS
AND THOSE HOPES COMES
TO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
AND SO THE FACT THAT WE HAVE
THESE LONGING REQUIRES SOME KIND
OF EXPLANATION AND IS ONE
JUSTIFICATION FOR BELIEVING THAT
THERE IS SOMETHING
ELSE OUT THERE.
ARE WE GETTING THAT
CAUSATION REVERSED?
I MEAN, WE NEED THE FOOD AND
THEREFORE WE EVOLVE THE HUNGER.
IT'S NOT THAT WE HAVE THE HUNGER
AND THE FOOD WAS PROVIDED.
SO I'M NOT SURE THAT
ARGUMENT WORKS FOR AN AFTERLIFE.
THE ANALOGY WOULD BREAK DOWN IF
YOU CAN SHOW THAT THERE IS SOME
KIND OF A SURVIVAL BENEFIT FOR
OUR BELIEVING IN SOMETHING THAT
NEVER HAS EXISTED
AND NEVER WILL EXIST.
WE HAVE THIS DESIRE THAT GOOD
OVERCOME EVIL, THAT LIFE SHOULD
HAVE A PURPOSE, THAT
DEATH SHOULD NOT END IT.
HOW DO WE EXPLAIN THAT IF, IN
FACT, THERE IS NO AFTERLIFE AND
WE'RE JUST CREATURES THAT EVOLVE
BY NATURAL TIME AND CHANCE?
IT SEEMS TO ME THE LONGING
POINTS IN THE DIRECTION OF THERE
BEING A FULFILLMENT.
GREG DOES NOT TRY TO "PROVE" AN
AFTERLIFE, HE WON'T EXAGGERATE
OR FABRICATE
SO-CALLED 'EVIDENCE.'
I LIKE THAT.
IF WE YEARN FOR MEANING
AND PURPOSE, GREG SAYS,
THERE SHOULD BE FULFILLMENT.
BUT IF THERE'S NO
AFTERLIFE, WHY THE YEARNING?
WOULDN'T IT BE TRAGIC,
ALMOST SADISTIC, TO BE
DENIED AN AFTERLIFE?
IT'S NOT A LOGICAL OR SCIENTIFIC
ARGUMENT - IT'S A 'BIG PICTURE,'
COHERENCE-OF-THE-WORLD
KIND OF STORY.
SO WHERE TO GO?
SCIENTISTS GO TO EVOLUTION,
WHICH CAN SELECT FOR MENTAL
TRAITS, INCLUDING 'YEARNINGS'.
THEOLOGIANS GO TO RELIGION,
WHICH PROCLAIMS VARIOUS VISIONS
OF AN AFTERLIFE.
BUT CAN PROCLAMATIONS OF AN
AFTERLIFE - EVEN IF WIDESPREAD -
SUPPORT ITS REALITY?
I GO TO BIRMINGHAM, ENGLAND,
TO ASK THE DISTINGUISHED
PHILOSOPHER OF
RELIGION, JOHN HICK.
JOHN, DO YOU BELIEVE
THERE IS THE POSSIBILITY OF
LIFE AFTER DEATH?
IN SOME FORM, YES.
ULTIMATELY, WE HAVE
TO WAIT AND SEE.
THERE'S ONLY ONE
WAY TO FIND OUT.
I HOPE WE'LL WAIT A LONG TIME.
WELL, EXACTLY, YES.
ALL OF THE GREAT WORLD FAITHS
DO BELIEVE THAT THIS LIFE THAT
WE'RE NOW LIVING IS ONLY A SMALL
PART OF OUR TOTAL EXISTENCE.
THERE IS THE TRADITIONAL
CHRISTIAN VIEW THAT, AT DEATH,
WE GO EITHER TO HEAVEN OR HELL,
OR IF YOU'RE A CATHOLIC WE GO TO
HEAVEN OR HELL, OR PURGATORY.
I FIND THAT VERY DIFFICULT TO
BELIEVE, BECAUSE I DON'T THINK
THAT ANY OF US ARE GOOD ENOUGH
TO GO TO ANYTHING YOU'D CALL
HEAVEN AT THE TIME OF OUR DEATH,
AND I DON'T THINK ANY OF US ARE
BAD ENOUGH TO GO TO ANYTHING YOU
WOULD CALL HELL, AT THE MOMENT
OF OUR DEATH.
I'M INCLINED TO FAVOR SOMETHING
THAT IS SLIGHTLY MORE LIKE
PURGATORY THAN HEAVEN OR
HELL - NAMELY, MULTIPLE LIVES.
REINCARNATION, IN OTHER WORDS.
BUT I DON'T BELIEVE THIS IN
THE TRADITIONAL WESTERN SENSE,
IN WHICH PEOPLE DISCUSS IT, IN
WHICH IS THE PRESENT, CONSCIOUS
SELF THAT LIVES AGAIN AND MAY
REMEMBER A PREVIOUS LIFE, BUT IT
IS A DEEPER ELEMENT WITHIN US.
I WOULD DESCRIBE IT AS
A DISPOSITIONAL STRUCTURE.
WE'RE RATHER LIKE
RUNNERS IN A RELAY RACE.
WE, AT THE MOMENT, CARRY THE
TORCH, AND IT WAS HANDED ON TO
US FROM A PREVIOUS HUMAN LIFE,
WE NOW CARRY THE FUNDAMENTAL
DISPOSITIONAL STRUCTURE THAT
THAT PERSON HAD, AND THAT PERSON
MODIFIED IT FOR BETTER OR WORSE,
AND WE, IN OUR LIVES, ARE AGAIN
MODIFYING IT AND
HANDING IT ON TO SOME
FUTURE INDIVIDUAL PERSONALITY.
AND, IN EACH RELAY, I AM
TRANSMITTING SOMETHING, BUT I'M
NOT EXISTING, PERSONALLY.
I HAVE NO CONSCIOUSNESS OF IT.
MY PERSONALITY DISAPPEARS.
RIGHT.
I'M NOT LIKING THIS VERY MUCH.
NO.
WELL, THIS IS SOMETHING
THAT ACTUALLY ALL OF THE
GREAT RELIGIONS TEACH.
WE HAVE TO BECOME WILLING
TO GIVE OURSELVES TOTALLY.
CHRISTIANITY - YOU GIVE
YOURSELVES TO CHRIST,
GIVE YOURSELF TO GOD.
IN ISLAM, PARTICULARLY IN
THE SUFI TRADITION, YOU MERGE
YOURSELF IN GOD.
WITHIN BUDDHISM,
YOU ELIMINATE THE EGO.
IT IS THE CHALLENGE OF ALL THE
GREAT WORLD RELIGIONS, THAT WE
ARE TO BE WILLING TO DIE,
WILLING TO GIVE OURSELVES UP.
AND SUPPOSE I'M NOT.
WELL, YOU CAN'T HELP IT.
I WOULD LIKE TO LIVE FOREVER,
BUT I'M NOT GOING TO,
AND I OUGHT TO BE GLAD THAT
I'M CONTRIBUTING IN THIS WAY,
TO THE LONG, LONG CREATIVE
PROCESS, WHICH WILL LEAD TO,
ULTIMATELY, I KNOW NOT WHAT.
I ADMIRE JOHN AND HIS WORK -
BUT NOT HIS KIND OF AFTERLIFE.
I RESPECT JOHN'S SEEKING
STRUCTURAL COMMONALITY AMONG
WORLD RELIGIONS - BUT NOT
'GIVING OURSELVES UP' AS THE
PRICE OF POST-MORTEM SURVIVAL!
I'M NOT KIDDING - I'D NOT
WANT REINCARNATION TO BE REAL.
LOSE MY PERSONALITY.
BE SUBSUMED.
DISAPPEAR.
I DIG BENEATH THESE RELIGIOUS
DOCTRINES - THE COMMON
DENOMINATOR OF ALL
AFTERLIVES IS 'CONSCIOUSNESS'.
COULD THE ONLY 'THING'
TRULY REAL BE CONSCIOUSNESS?
I GO TO LA JOLLA, CALIFORNIA,
TO VISIT THE INDIAN-AMERICAN
HOLISTIC PHYSICIAN,
DEEPAK CHOPRA.
DEEPAK, HOW DO YOU
LOOK AT DEATH FROM THE
STANDPOINT OF CONSCIOUSNESS?
I LOOK AT DEATH AS CREATIVITY.
SO EVERY CREATIVE
PROCESS HAS A DEATH INVOLVED.
IN BIOLOGY WE CALL IT
APOPTOSIS-PROGRAMMED
CELLULAR DEATH.
YOUR SKIN CELLS HAVE
TO DIE ONCE A MONTH.
YOUR STOMACH CELLS
DIE EVERY FIVE DAYS.
YOUR IMMUNE CELLS DIE LIKE YOUR
BLOOD CELLS EVERY HUNDRED AND
TWENTY DAYS OR SO.
BUT THEY REMEMBER HOW TO ATTACK
THE BACTERIUM, AND IN FACT EVERY
IMMUNE CELL LOOKS AT A PATHOGEN,
AND SAYS, "HAVE I HAD AN
EXPERIENCE WITH THIS GUY BEFORE?
I HAVEN'T, BUT WHAT DID MY
GRANDFATHER THINK OF HIM."
OKAY, BECAUSE THE MEMORY OF THE
PREVIOUS CELL IS RECYCLED IN
THE MEMORY OF THE NEW CELL.
DNA IS THE REPOSITORY OF
THE MEMORY OF EVOLUTION.
BUT ITS ACTUAL STUFF COMES
AND GOES EVERY SIX WEEKS.
SO WHAT RECYCLES IS A MATRIX OF
MEMORY WHICH I, THROUGH MY DEEP
UNDERSTANDING OF CONSCIOUSNESS,
IS NOT IN THE BRAIN OR NOT
IN YOUR BODY.
IT'S NON-LOCAL, IT'S IN
CONSCIOUSNESS WHICH HAS NO
LOCATION SPACE IN TIME.
SO, WE ARE RECYCLING
OF CONSCIOUSNESS.
IF WE CAN UNDERSTAND THAT, THEN
DEATH AND RESURRECTION IN THE
LITERAL SENSE IS CREATIVITY,
IT'S CREATING NEW CONTEXTS,
NEW MEANINGS, NEW
RELATIONSHIPS, ALL THE TIME.
I'M HESITATING TO USE THE WORD
REINCARNATION, BECAUSE YOU GET
LOST IN RELIGIOUS IDEOLOGY.
BUT, THERE IS NO
QUESTION THAT EVERYTHING IN
THE UNIVERSE RECYCLES.
EVERYTHING.
I APPRECIATE THE POETRY OF
RECYCLING, BUT THAT DOESN'T DO
VERY MUCH FOR ME.
AS LONG AS YOU THINK OF
YOURSELF AS THIS LITTLE,
SKIN-ENCAPSULATED EGO DRAGGING
AROUND A BAG OF FLESH AND BONES,
YES IT DOES.
BUT I HAVE A CERTAIN SENSE OF
MY OWN PERSONAL CONSCIOUSNESS,
I'M MY OWN PERSONAL
AWARENESS AND I LIKE THAT.
ARE YOU GOING TO TAKE THAT
AWAY FROM ME IN SOME COSMIC
CONSCIOUSNESS AFTER DEATH,
THE RECYCLING, BECAUSE I DON'T
REMEMBER ANY OTHER CYCLES.
SO THOSE OTHER CYCLES
THAT I WERE, DO ME NO GOOD.
OKAY ROBERT, YOU WANT THE
TRUTH WITH A CAPITAL "T."
I DO, THAT'S WHY I COME TO YOU.
WHAT DID YOU HAVE FOR LUNCH
THREE WEEKS AGO ON THURSDAY?
OKAY, I DON'T REMEMBER.
THE FACT IS THAT LOTS OF THINGS
WE'VE EXPERIENCED THAT WE
DON'T REMEMBER, RIGHT?
SO JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T
REMEMBER BEING CLEOPATRA IN A
PREVIOUS LIFETIME, DOESN'T
EXCLUDE THE POSSIBILITY, OR OF
BEING A HOUSEMAID OR WHATEVER.
RIGHT, RIGHT.
THE QUESTION IS,
WHAT IS OUR REAL IDENTITY?
ONCE YOU FIND OUT THAT YOUR REAL
IDENTITY IS WAY BEYOND ANYTHING
IN SPACE-TIME, THEN THERE IS
NO BIRTH, AND THERE IS NO DEATH,
THERE IS ONLY THE CONTINUUM OF
BIRTH AND DEATH AS PUNCTUATED
POINTS IN THE GRAMMAR OF LIFE.
DOES THAT MEAN I HAVE TO GIVE UP
MY PERSONAL SENSE OF AWARENESS?
YOU HAVE TO EXPAND
YOUR PERSONAL SENSE.
THERE'S NOTHING TO GIVE UP, YOU
CAN ONLY GIVE UP WHAT EXISTED.
BUT IF WE EXPAND YOUR SENSE
OF AWARENESS, UNTIL YOU REALIZE
YOU'RE ALL OF THIS AND YOU
FEEL IT, THEN THERE'S NOTHING
TO GIVE UP.
YOU ARE THE UNIVERSE IN THIS
LITTLE IMPERMANENT LIFE FORM.
WILL I KNOW IT'S ME?
IF YOU CAN AWAKEN YOURSELF INTO
THE AWARENESS OF YOUR BIGGER
IDENTITY NOW, YOU WILL NEVER
FEAR DEATH, BECAUSE YOU WILL
KNOW THAT THAT IS WHO YOU ARE.
BUT THAT'S A DIFFERENT
SENSE THAN I HAVE TODAY.
IT'S A SENSE THAT I DON'T EXIST.
IT'S A SENSE THAT I'VE BLENDED
INTO A COSMIC CONSCIOUSNESS.
NO YOU DON'T, IF
YOU CAN WITNESS...
RK: I'M NOT SURE I WANT THAT?
WHY DO I WANT THAT?
DC: IN ANY GIVEN DAY.
RK: IT'S LIKE DISAPPEARING.
DC: IN ANY GIVEN DAY...
RK: I DON'T WANT TO DISAPPEAR.
LISTEN TO ME.
AS LONG AS YOU DON'T CONFUSE
YOURSELF WITH THE ROLE YOUR
PLAYING WITH RIGHT NOW
AS ROBERT, YOU'RE FREE.
IF YOU GET ATTACHED TO THE ROLE,
THEN YOU'RE IN THE MELODRAMA OF
FEAR AND EXISTENCE WHICH
EVERYONE IS GOING THROUGH AN
EXISTENTIAL CRISIS, YOU'RE LIKE
A GUY IN A MOVIE THEATRE WHO HAS
FORGOTTEN THAT THEY'RE
WATCHING A MOVIE.
YOU'RE THE WITNESS OF THE MOVIE,
IT'S YOUR DESTINY TO PLAY AN
INFINITY OF ROLES, BUT
YOU'RE NOT THE ROLES YOU PLAY.
YOU'RE THE INTERNAL WITNESS IN
WHICH THE ROLES COMES AND GO.
AND YOU BETTER GET A HOLD OF
THAT ETERNAL WITNESS BECAUSE
IT'S YOUR TICKET TO REALITY.
IT'S YOUR TICKET TO FREEDOM,
ITS YOUR TICKET TO IMMORTALITY.
I AGREE WITH DEEPAK IN THAT I
TAKE CONSCIOUSNESS SERIOUSLY.
CONSCIOUSNESS IN THE
COSMOS IS NO ACCIDENT.
BUT THE PATH OF THE
MYSTIC, I CANNOT FOLLOW.
I AM A REALIST ABOUT THE
PHYSICAL WORLD - JUST AS I AM A
REALIST ABOUT CONSCIOUSNESS.
BOTH, I THINK,
CAN BE FUNDAMENTAL.
BUT EVEN IF IT WERE ULTIMATE
TRUTH THAT IT WAS CONSCIOUSNESS
FROM WHERE I CAME, AND IT SHALL
BE CONSCIOUSNESS TO WHERE I'LL
RETURN - THOUGH I'D WANT ETERNAL
LIFE, I'D NOT WANT IT THIS WAY.
PERHAPS I LANGUISH
UNENLIGHTENED, BUT I INSIST ON
PRESERVING MY SENSE OF SELF.
HOW TO HAVE ETERNAL LIFE AND
MAINTAIN OUR PERSONAL AWARENESS?
I VISIT NEUROSCIENTIST WARREN
BROWN, A CHRISTIAN BELIEVER.
WHY DOES HE REJECT
'IMMORTAL SOULS' BUT
ACCEPT A RESURRECTION?
WARREN, YOU'RE A PHYSICALIST.
YOU'RE ALSO A BELIEVER IN GOD.
HOW THEN IS LIFE AFTER
DEATH POSSIBLE IF AT ALL?
IF THERE IS NOTHING ABOUT THE
PERSON THAT'S NOT NON-PHYSICAL.
LIFE AFTER DEATH OBVIOUSLY IS
AN EASY ANSWER FOR THE DUALIST,
BECAUSE THE BODY DETERIORATES,
THE SOUL ESCAPES, GOES OFF TO
WHEREVER, TO HEAVEN.
FOR A PHYSICALIST, AS YOU
SAY, THAT'S PROBLEMATIC.
YOU HAVE TO HAVE SOME IDEA OF A
RE-EMBODIMENT AND FORTUNATELY
THE BASIC UNDERSTANDING
OF LIFE AFTER DEATH AND
CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY AS
RESURRECTION NOT IMMORALITY.
SO LIFE AFTER DEATH BECOMES A
RE-EMBODIMENT, IN A CHANGED BODY
BUT A RE-EMBODIMENT.
FOR ME SOMEHOW IN THAT
RE-EMBODIMENT MY FORM OF
CONSCIOUSNESS, MY FORM OF
MENTAL LIFE GETS RE-REPRESENTED
RE-INSTITUTED,
RECREATED IN A NEW CREATION.
SO THE BIBLE REALLY
TALKS ABOUT A NEW CREATION.
AND TALKS ABOUT RESURRECTION.
THE BIBLE REALLY DOES NOT TALK
SOUL ESCAPE OR SOUL EXISTENCE
OR IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL.
SO HOW IS THAT HAPPENING?
AND I'M TALKING TO
YOU AS A NEUROSCIENTIST.
HOW ARE YOU GOING TO RECREATE
THE ESSENCE WHICH IS YOU, YOUR
FIRST PERSON EXPERIENCE SO THAT
IN THE RESURRECTION WHEN SHOULD
IT OCCUR, YOU WOULD FEEL JUST
LIKE YOU WOULD IN THE MORNING IF
YOU HAD A DREAMLESS NIGHT.
WHAT WOULD THAT TAKE?
SO I'M ACTUALLY NOT THE SAME
PHYSICAL BODY I WAS A YEAR AGO.
WHAT I AM IS THE
SAME ORGANIZATION.
AND SO WHAT WOULD HAVE TO BE
PRESERVED IN MY RE-EMBODIMENT OR
MY RECREATION IN THE
RESURRECTION WOULD BE SOMETHING
ABOUT THE PATTERN THAT IS ME
THE PATTERN THE WAY MY BRAIN
BODY IS ORGANIZED.
AND THAT ORGANIZATIONAL
DESCRIPTION WOULD HAVE TO BE
PRESERVED IN WHATEVER IS
RESURRECTED OR RECREATED
THAT IS ME.
AND SPEAKING AS A
NEUROSCIENTIST, HOW ON EARTH
COULD THAT HAPPEN?
I DON'T KNOW.
AS A NEUROSCIENTIST
IT'S BEYOND DESCRIPTION.
WHAT IS NECESSARY IS THAT AT WE
HAVE A CREATOR GOD WHO IN SOME
WAY CREATED WHAT EXISTS NOW AND
WILL BE RECREATED IN SOME WAY
AND WHAT EXISTS IN THE
RESURRECTION, BUT HOW YOU GO
FROM HERE TO THERE,
THAT'S JUST WAY BEYOND WHAT
ANYBODY CAN FATHOM.
NO IMMORTAL SOUL IN THE BIBLE.
ALL HOPE IS ON A RESURRECTION.
A RESURRECTION WILL HAPPEN,
WARREN SAYS, BUT WE HAVE
NO IDEA HOW.
I'D LIKE TO BELIEVE IN A
RESURRECTION - BUT I'D NEED
AN IDEA HOW.
GRANTED, A 'RESURRECTION
OF THE DEAD' WOULD BE WILDLY
INCREDIBLE - AND IT MAY SOUND
DOUBLY LUDICROUS TO ASK HOW?
OTHER THAN, 'IF GOD EXISTS
AND GOD IS ALL-POWERFUL,
THEN GOD CAN DO ANYTHING.'
FOR ME, 'IT'S A MIRACLE'
JUST DOESN'T CUT IT.
I PUSH FOR HOW AND WHY THINGS
COULD HAPPEN - IF ONLY TO TEST
CONSISTENCY OR
DISCERN WAYS OF THINKING.
I ASK A PHILOSOPHER OF RELIGION
TRAINED IN COMPUTER SCIENCE,
ERIC STEINHART.
ERIC, YOU'RE A NATURALIST.
YOU BELIEVE IN THE SCIENTIFIC
PICTURE OF THE WORLD,
THAT EVERYTHING WE SEE HAS A
PHYSICAL CAUSES AND EFFECTS AND
WE DON'T NEED TO INJECT ANYTHING
IN THIS WORLD THAT IS OF
AN IMMATERIAL NATURE.
CORRECT.
IN THAT CASE, IT WOULD SEEM TO
BE THAT ANY SORT OF HOPE IN LIFE
AFTER DEATH IS IMPOSSIBLE.
ANY HOPE THAT YOU'RE GOING TO
SURVIVE DEATH IS A FALSE HOPE,
I WOULD SAY.
I THINK CONSCIOUSNESS IS JUST A
BRAIN PROCESS AND A BODY PROCESS
TOO OF COURSE.
BUT, WHEN YOUR BRAIN DIES, YOUR
BODY DIES, YOUR CONSCIOUSNESS
IS EXTINGUISHED, PERMANENTLY.
I DON'T THINK THAT RENDERS
LIFE AFTER DEATH IMPOSSIBLE.
IF YOU EVEN GO BACK TO THE
EARLIEST JUDAIC AND CHRISTIAN
ACCOUNTS OF RESURRECTION, RIGHT,
ONE OF THE VIEWS OF RESURRECTION
IS THE EXTINCTION,
RECREATION VIEW.
AND THERE'S GOOD EVIDENCE FOR
THAT AND THEN YOU KNOW THE OLD
TESTAMENT AND NEW TESTAMENT
IS WHEN YOU DIE YOU'RE DEAD.
AND THEN GOD, HAD MADE THE
ORIGINAL VERSION OF YOU AND
GOD'LL MAKE ANOTHER ONE.
THAT'S THE STANDARD KIND OF
JUDAIC AND THEN ACTUALLY EARLY
CHRISTIAN, IN FACT
NEW TESTAMENT VIEW.
EVEN THOUGH TODAY, IT'S BEEN
REALLY MORPHED INTO AN IMMORTAL
SOUL IN MOST RELIGIONS, IN
JUDAISM AS WELL AS CHRISTIANITY
THERE'S AN IMMORTAL SOUL
COMPONENT TO IT, WHICH IS
NOT THE ORIGINAL.
THAT'S RIGHT.
THE ORIGINAL DOCTRINES
DIDN'T HAVE THAT IMMORTAL SOUL.
RIGHT, IN FACT, THE SOUL DOESN'T
REALLY PLAY ANY SIGNIFICANT ROLE
IN THOSE EARLY TEXTS.
SO I LIKE THAT
EXTINCTION-RECREATION ACCOUNT.
NOW IT HAS TO BE
FIXED UP IN VARIOUS WAYS.
WELL I'M SURE YOU CAN DO IT.
HA!
I BETTER, THAT'S MY JOB.
THE IDEA IS THAT YOU KNOW
THERE'S A UNIVERSE AND YOU'RE
HERE, YOU'RE BORN, YOU
DIE, AND THEN YOU'RE DEAD.
AND GOD WILL CREATE ANOTHER
UNIVERSE, AND HE WILL CREATE A
REPLICA OF YOU, OF YOU'RE
LIFE IN THAT OTHER UNIVERSE.
AND SO BETWEEN THIS UNIVERSE
AND THE NEXT, YOU DON'T EXIST.
YOU HAD A TRICKY CHANGE
OF WORD THERE, FROM RESURRECTION
WHICH I WAS PLEASED TO GO
ALONG WITH YOU, AND THEN YOU
TALKED ABOUT REPLICA.
I DON'T LIKE A REPLICA.
I LIKE THE RESURRECTION.
I'M NOT SURE WHAT
THE DIFFERENCE IS.
THE MOST GOD CAN DO IT WOULD
SEEM WOULD BE TO MAKE A REPLICA.
IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THE OLD
STUFF IS, IN FACT THAT NEVER
MATTERED 'CAUSE STUFF GOES
THROUGH OUR BODIES ALL THE TIME.
BUT THERE'S A PATTERN THERE
THAT FORMS OUR MEMORIES AND
WHATEVER ELSE THAT...
IT'S THE PATTERN
THAT'S IMPORTANT.
SO WHEN WE TAKE THAT PATTERN,
AND WE REINSTANTIATE IT IN SOME
NEW STUFF, THAT'S A REPLICA.
NOW SOME PEOPLE SAY,
WELL YOU SHOULDN'T CALL THAT
A RESURRECTION, YOU
SHOULD, YOU KNOW, AND THAT'S
KIND OF TECHNICAL BUT...
WELL, NO, IT'S NOT TECHNICAL
BECAUSE IT REALLY SPEAKS TO,
AM I GOING TO SURVIVE DEATH?
YOU'VE ALREADY SAID NO.
I'VE SAID NO.
I'M NOT GONNA SURVIVE
DEATH SO, YOU KNOW...
ES: YOU'RE NOT.
YOU'RE DEAD.
I'M READY TO, YOU KNOW, GET UP
AND GO HOME, HAVE A BEER AND
FORGET THE CONVERSATION BUT
I'LL STICK WITH IT FOR A WHILE.
BOY, YOU'RE
ATTACHED TO YOURSELF.
I AM ATTACHED TO MYSELF.
I MEAN, YOU KNOW,
THAT'S THE ONLY ONE I GOT.
AND I'D LIKE TO,
YOU KNOW KEEP...
BUT EVERYONE AGREES; BUDDHISTS,
CHRISTIANS, JEWS, THE WHOLE
TRADITION, EVERYBODY
AGREES, THAT'S GONE MAN,
THAT'S AN ILLUSION.
I AM WHAT I AM AND I DO WANT TO
MAINTAIN A PERSONAL IDENTITY.
THAT'S WHY I SEE A
DIFFERENCE BETWEEN
REPLICA AND RESURRECTION.
RESURRECTION IS YOU ARE
LITERALLY, THE YOU THAT HAS THE
FIRST PERSON CONSCIOUSNESS
WOULD COME BACK TO LIFE.
REPLICA MEANS SOMETHING THAT
LOOKS LIKE YOU, ACTS LIKE YOU...
THAT'S RIGHT.
...THINKS LIKE YOU; IS THE
PATTERN OF YOU BUT IS NOT YOUR
FIRST PERSON CONSCIOUSNESS.
THAT'S CORRECT.
AND TO ME THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE
BETWEEN NIGHT AND DAY.
I CAN'T SEE ANY WAY THAT
MAKES ANY SENSE TO GET THAT
CONTINUITY OF THAT FIRST
PERSON CONSCIOUSNESS
THAT SURVIVES DEATH.
IF A GOD COULD MAKE THIS
UNIVERSE, WHY COULDN'T A GOD
RECREATE MY FIRST
PERSON CONSCIOUSNESS?
ACTUALLY I THINK
THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE.
YOU THINK THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE?
I THINK THAT'S
LOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE...
LOGICALLY, WHY?
BECAUSE YOUR FIRST PERSON
CONSCIOUSNESS EXISTS ONLY NOW.
AND AT SOME OTHER TIME,
SOME OTHER PLACE, SOME OTHER
UNIVERSE, WHAT IS ANCHORED TO
THE NOW, HERE AND NOW, THIS
UNIVERSE THIS MOMENT THIS
POINT IN TIME, RIGHT, AND SPACE;
THAT CAN'T BE RECREATED EVER.
ONCE THIS NOW IS GONE,
IT'LL NEVER BE THERE AGAIN.
WELL, YEAH, BUT I MEAN, I HAVE
A SENSE OF CONTINUITY FOR EVERY
NOW AS IT GOES FORWARD.
I MEAN, I HAVE THIS UNITY
OF PERSONAL CONSCIOUSNESS.
WELL IF YOU'RE ONLY ASKING FOR A
UNITY, A CONTINUITY, THEN WE CAN
GIVE THAT TO YOU EASILY.
WE CAN MAKE A ROBOT
THAT THINKS IT WAS YOU....
RK: YEAH...
ES: BUT IT WOULDN'T BE YOU.
RK: BUT, IT WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO
TRANSFER MY INTERNAL SENSE OF
SELF RIGHT NOW.
I WOULD BLANK OUT.
THE ROBOT WOULD CLAIM
TO BE ME AND ACT LIKE ME
AND FOOL EVERYBODY.
WHY WOULD YOU BLACK OUT?
WHY COULDN'T YOUR INTERNAL
SENSE OF SELF BE COPIED AND
TRANSFERRED ALL OVER THE PLACE?
IT COULD BE, BUT IT WOULDN'T
BE MY AWARENESS AND MY LIFE.
YOU THINK OF YOUR AWARENESS AS A
SUBSTANCE THAT HAS A PERMANENCE
AND AN ENDURANCE OF ITS OWN.
THAT'S AN ILLUSION I WOULD SAY.
THAT IS AN ILLUSION
GENERATED BY YOUR BRAIN.
I'M ASKING WHETHER
YOUR GODS HAD THE -
ES: YOU'RE ASKING
FOR AN ILLUSION.
RK: NO, I WANT TO KNOW WHETHER
YOUR GODS CAN CREATE THAT
INNER PERSONAL EXPERIENCE
THAT I FEEL NOW.
ES: WELL, MY GODS, YES, THEY
COULD DO THAT BUT THAT'S NOT
ACTUALLY VERY HARD.
WE COULD DO THAT JUST BY MAKING
A DUPLICATE OF YOUR BRAIN HERE.
IT WOULDN'T BE THE SAME
INTERNAL SENSE THAT I HAVE,
THEY'D BE LIKE A TWIN BROTHER.
I DON'T PUT TOO MUCH INTEREST
IN HAVING THAT PERSISTENCE
OF THAT EXPERIENCE.
I WOULD LIKE ALL THE THINGS
THAT ERIC STEINHART COULD DO BUT
CAN'T DO HERE - I WOULD
LIKE THAT FORM TO HAVE ALL OF
ITS POTENTIALS REALIZED.
I WANT A TRANSFORMATION
OF CONSCIOUSNESS, NOT A
PERSISTENCE OF CONSCIOUSNESS.
WELL, I'D WANT A PERSISTENCE
OF CONSCIOUSNESS AND A
TRANSFORMATION OF CONSCIOUSNESS.
BUT IF FORCED TO CHOOSE,
I'D GO WITH 'PERSISTENCE' -
I WANT TO BE ME.
AND I'D TRADE
'TRANSFORMATION' TO REMAIN ME.
AS FOR THE CLASH OF WORLDVIEWS -
RESURRECTION OR REINCARNATION -
EACH IS PROBLEMATIC - EACH
BASED ON A MASSIVE ASSUMPTION:
RESURRECTION - REQUIRES AN
ALL-POWERFUL GOD, WHO SOMEHOW
TAKES PERSONAL INTEREST
IN EVERY CREATURE.
REINCARNATION - REQUIRES THE
PRIMACY OF PURE CONSCIOUSNESS,
WHICH SOMEHOW GUIDES UNCOUNTABLE
SOULS INTO INNUMERABLE BODIES.
EVEN IF ABSORBING ME INTO COSMIC
CONSCIOUSNESS COULD ELEVATE MY
REALITY, STILL, NO THANK YOU
- I'D TAKE A PASS.
I'D GO FOR RESURRECTION.
YET LIFE AFTER DEATH - IN ANY
WAY - SEEMS SO FAR-FETCHED,
THE TRIUMPH OF
HOPE OVER REASON.
SO, IS DEATH FINAL?
YES?
NO?
EITHER WAY, THOSE YEARNINGS
AND WAYS OF THINKING ARE...
CLOSER TO TRUTH.
FOR COMPLETE INTERVIEWS
AND FOR FURTHER INFORMATION,
PLEASE VISIT
WWW.CLOSERTOTRUTH.COM.
