(Eyal) How many of you would say that you've
witnessed or experienced tensions
connected to political differences in
the communities within which you're
apart? Okay. How many of you have avoided talking with someone about some
controversial topic or political issue
because you know that they are in a
different place than you are? All right.
Yeah, we are in an epidemic of contempt,
anger, and siloing with respect to
political differences and divides in our
country. Studies have found that we are
more divided in America today than at
any point since the Civil War. Right here,
in the Driftless, is one of the more
purple areas in the country, with strong
red and blue living in the same
neighborhoods, often going to the same
churches, and also many people here who
would define themselves as purple or
something other, don't feel like they fit
into the two-party system very well at
all. So we're going to be doing a few
different exercises to really delve into
who we are. We're going to give you
several minutes to make a list. Moments
in your life that most powerfully formed
or changed your personal moral or
political makeup.
(Ted) I'm at total peace on the river. That's
where I spend most of my time because it
is honest, basic, and unforgiving, and as a
young person, the death of a baby brother,
grandpa, my favorite aunt within a
six-month period when I was 12 years old
influenced the rest of my life. That's
why I became a paramedic and a
firefighter. Rescued, saved lives. I'm still
willing to lay down my life if necessary
for a total stranger. I think of all the
human traits, the one I treasure most is
integrity. If I tell you I'm gonna be
there, I'm gonna be there. If I tell you I
got your back, I got your back, and that's
not gonna change. That's pretty
much it. So, who's next?
(AJ) I grew up in a small town, very religious.
We were homeless for a while, we were
hungry for a while. My parents were too
proud to take assistance, and that
translates a lot into my politics and my
approach. I also identify within the
LGBTQ community as bisexual, is probably
the easiest term to use. I was suicidal a
good chunk of my high school career
because I kept questioning why God would
make me like this—like I
just want in a sense to "pray the gay away".
So my big formative life was going to
college, to be honest, and getting away
from my small town and figuring out who
the heck I am. And the job that I do now
works on seeing people's humanity and
seeing them for themselves and all of
who they are and what they bring to the
table, and I've spent my life seeing how
people are not valued by the way they
are, or for who they are.
(Karen) I have no idea
what your views of the scriptures are, but
all the principles are in there, as
far as relationships, where we value
another person ahead of ourselves,
where we are good employees with
integrity, where we are good bosses who
don't lord it over those entrusted to
us. I mean it's just like, aren't those
just about everything that we need for
life?
My parents divorced when I was 10 years
old. I didn't know any other kids at that
time whose parents are divorced, and I
was from the generation where all of a
sudden divorce is starting to grow and
become rampant and broken families that
we didn't have prior to the 60s and 70s,
and so seeing the ramifications and what
that's done in our culture, where I end
up politically, it's basically
whatever we can do as a society to
support strong families and if we do it
right, the way we are meant to, then so many of our other problems wouldn't be where
they're at.
(Akram) I was born abroad, in the West
Bank. Moved to America when I was very
young. I was more often excluded from
groups in elementary school for a lot of
different reasons, whether it was because
I didn't play Sega Genesis like
they did or I didn't know who my
favorite baseball team was, right. I grew
up in a very poor inner city, so I always
try to be on the side of the underdog. In
college, I started after-school programs.
I led bicycle trips with kids, and seeing
kids expand their understanding of their
communities and where they can go
always—maybe it was the dopamine hit, right, like I always wanted to do
more for more people.
(Eyal) We're going to do an
activity designed to purposefully
surface some of the differences and
divides that are present in the room, and
then we will have an extended
conversation on some of the issues that
have arisen or some of the things that
we know we all care about most.
(Karen) We're so locked into our parties and
one's going to take the extreme of the
other.
(AJ) Is it one immigrant? Is it a
thousand? Like where do we start to care
about the humanity that we're showing
other people?
(Steven) Feels like we all value the autonomy of a mother,
and that we all
value life in the womb.
(Ted) I don't think the government has any voice in this.
Nobody owes me a living, nobody owes them
a living. Earn it.
(Steve) 1% of our population owns 90% of the
wealth.
(Ted) A little voice inside said "this is
important to do," so that's why I'm here,
I'm supposed to be here.
(Eyal) There is this
question around the social safety net,
what it offers, and the problems with it.
Earlier, several of you focused on a
frustration or a critique, but there were
differences here.
(Akram) I believe in a social safety
net because I also believe ultimately
that I benefit. My security is taken care
of not just by cops who stop bad people,
but by social benefits that provide food
to people who then don't have to go out
and rob others in order to eat, right, and
in that way I feel more secure in the
society that I live in.
(Ted) I was a firefighter paramedic,
25 years I did this and some people,
really who are in need, I mean you feel
compassion for them but other people
that just milk the system for all it's
worth,
I don't think it's right.
(Karen) I so agree
with that. And I'm just thinking of the
analogy of a parent and just how hard
it is for a parent to let their kids
fail in any way or to be needy in any
way and yet the more that I continue to
do for them and bail them out on things,
then the less they're gonna learn
important life lessons, and so I think we
struggle with that as a society. How do we best
care for people but not do so much that
we are inadvertently keeping them in
dependency. You know, we're part of a
church and we do our best with
benevolent fund and helping people, but
the other thing we do work really hard
at is strengthening families, you know,
empower kids to make good choices.
That babies are birthed in healthy
marital situations, so you know, all
those kind of cultural things that
really do contribute to economic stability.
(Ted) As Karen was saying there, I
think that's important that we teach
these kids and then get out of the way as
much as you can, because as long as
you're depending on somebody to do the
work for you, why should you do the work?
There's no incentive.
(AJ) This brings up so
so so much. I don't think our
government does enough for the people
that live in this country. I think that
the way our country was set up to begin
with, being on stolen land from people, and
then we've built a country on the back
of slave labor, and continue to in some
ways. I really don't feel like most
people wake up thinking that I want to
be one of these like "nags" on society. If
we're a country built on life, liberty,
and the pursuit of happiness, but we
ensure that most people have no chance
at happiness, how are we really upholding any of this?
(Akram) Something sort of
energized me, AJ, that people can't begin
to understand, the injustices that
we live in and that formed the base and
foundation for people who are doing well.
And then thinking about you know the way
that I view the social safety net, and it
comes back to something that no one's
really said the word much today but,
privilege, right, you know going back to
Karen, you talk about helping your
children, but realizing that helping them
has in some ways hindered them, to which
I say, you provided more for your kids
than just the things that they wanted,
but you've probably provided them the
tools and the support and the love and
the knowledge that if they miss a car
payment, you'll support them for that
month if they prove that they can pay it
for the next month, whereas there are so
many people who if they miss that car
payment, they can't turn to anyone. So
there's a privilege that your children
also carry with them.
(Ted) Well, Akram, I don't owe anybody anything. When I was in junior high school, I got a $0.50 a
week allowance. Fantastic. Got into high
school, said "Dad, I'm going to high school
now, I'll be taking girls out, go to football
games, a little more allowance?" He said, "How
much were you thinking?" I said, "A dollar?"
He said, "Get a job." And that was the last I
was on the dole. Now, if somebody can't
work for whatever reason, by all means we
need to support these people every way
possible. They deserve a quality of life.
But if they can work and they don't want
to work, or not work much, why in the
world should people who have worked
their entire life— I started work when I
was 13 years old and I'm still working,
I'm a senior citizen, and I'm still out
there busting my hump 200 days a year
when possible, either doing farm work or
herding cattle or guiding. Why should I
pay for anybody, supplement
their type of thing?
(Akram) I think a lot of
times that when people don't work, there
are other reasons there, right, whether
they don't know how to interview very
well or they don't have the skills. You
talked about at 13 you were able to go
and get a job because your dad told you
to. You used skills that your father
probably taught you.
(Ted) Well, Akram, if this
doesn't begin in the home, who's responsible for it?
(Akram) In a lot of other
societies, it's not just the nuclear
family unit that's responsible for
children, but the collective.
(Ted) You know, my dad when he cut off my allowance,
he said, "Go get a job," he called my uncle,
said, "Hey I got a worker for you," so I
started at the princely wage of a buck and a quarter an hour.
(Akram) With your uncle?
(Ted) With my uncle.
(Akram) Who was looking out for you.
(Ted) Well, no, he set me straight, that this life is not easy guys, even though we're living
in America, where it's about as easy as
it gets,
you still gotta fight for everything
that's worth fighting for.
(Steve) But I think for some, it is easier. You know, I was a poor trailer-trash kid when I
was growing up, and and we were on some
of that assistance. And if you are coming
from three generations of living off
Social Services, you're not learning that
work ethic. But now, I have 40 employees
because I've worked my ass off to get
there, but I was also fortunate enough
that my father-in-law had the capability
of signing on the dotted line for that
first house I needed to get to start my
business, and if I wouldn't have had that...
(Eyal) So you're giving recognition of the fact
that when you have social networks who
are able to help, you have greater
likelihood that your work will produce
better outcomes.
(Steve) Yeah, but you also have to be willing to work hard to get there.
(Eyal) It's not enough.
(Steve) No.
(Eyal) And what Ted said essentially was like okay, well, if you don't have those networks, whose
responsibility is it, is it the
government's responsibility, and it sounded
like, you know you said, Akram, there's
a communal responsibility, Karen you said
like we're doing this as much as we can
in the church, whose responsibility is it?
What do people think?
(Karen) I just want to
echo that point again. One of our values
at church actually is
intergenerational relationships. So
instead of just the financial and
economic handout, we need the older
generation teaching the younger generation these work ethic things. We need that
hard work of people caring enough to get
in there and help these struggling families.
Marvin Olasky, the editor of
WORLD magazine, says "social justice is
the sum of millions of acts of
relational justice." So we tend to think
of it as who we vote for and and it's
those big things, but it's not. It's those
small little things that we do every day
that connect and mentor the next generation.
(Eyal) Is there a difference for you
if that connecting is enabled by the
church or is enabled by government
institutions?
(Karen) It's probably "both/and", for sure, yep.
(Steven Z.) AJ I heard you express a
lot of discouragement especially about
you know what you called the lack of
people's ability to pursue life, liberty,
pursuit of happiness. Can you, can you
imagine things that societally or
governmentally could be done that would
make you feel like, okay, people do have a
fair shot? In your sort of dream, I'm
curious how it would actually play
out, if you could control the levers for
a day.
(AJ) Nobody wants me to answer that question. You do not want me to answer that question. I want people to be in a place
where all their basic needs are being
met on the daily without having to
justify why they deserve to have basic
needs. Like, if you're another human
being you deserve to have access to
health care, to food, to shelter.
(Eyal) And this whole argument about work ethic that seems like a mistake.
(AJ) You're a human being.
(Eyal) Like just by virtue of being a human being...
(AJ) In my opinion, yeah. There are so many times
that I've been working my ass off and
gotten nowhere. Like I just had a
conversation with my mother who's been
at her job for 20 years and is making
$15 an hour. And she's been there forever.
(Ted) Look at our groups of what you said I mean here you have a master's degree,
you're highly educated, very intelligent.
And you've got a huge student
debt. I think it's like $19,000?
(AJ) Oh no, $130,000.
(Ted) $130,000!
So, could you vote for a Democrat
candidate who says, "Okay, come on in, free college!"
(AJ) Sure. I want everyone to have access to education.
(Ted) So you're still willing to eat that $130,000 in debt?
(AJ)Yes.
(Ted) Whoa.
(AJ) I know I'm radical, it's scary.
(Ted) Doesn't that put you at a disadvantage?
(AJ) Yes.
(Ted) Wow.
(AJ) I don't want people to struggle as
hard after me. I want people to find
value in each other and to find value in
community, and if that means me sitting
here and being in debt the rest of my
life while someone else gets a free ride,
like cool. Like I really hope that when
you get that education you see the value
in yourself and what you can give the
community and then that, that will come
back in return for me. I play the long
game.
(Ted) Let's talk about the long game for
a second. What about the people that came before you?
(AJ) What do you mean?
(Ted) Well, I've been working for 55 years I still have
to work till the day I drop because my
pension is diminishing with each dollar.
(Eyal) Just so we're clear on what's being said
here, you're saying, "Well I'm still here
actually and the policies you're talking
about are going to harm me."
(Ted) And the money at my earning capacity keeps going
down the older I get. I'm wearing out.
(AJ) I'm also willing to give you what you need.
(Ted) I don't want you to give, I've earned it.
(AJ) It's not about that.
(Eyal) There's I think an underlying
difference here that's emerging. You're
saying in terms of policy, the very
problem he's naming, well that's
something we can and should address,
that's not right. And it sounded like
what you're saying is I don't want that.
(Ted) Throw the old dog a bone?
(AJ) No.
(Ted) I won't take it.
(AJ) It's about community. Like all of our
families used to take care of each other.
We used to have grandparents that lived
in our house and our parents lived in
our house and we've moved away from that. And with that we've moved away from
valuing our folks who are older than us.
Like it's not about a handout. I should
be taking care of you because I value
you as a person, and it's not
about taking care, because you would have
taken care of me when I was younger. And
you were doing that by contributing to
society as a working person.
(Eyal) There's a fundamental different interpretation of
the moral quality of something coming to
you from government. There is a sense of
integrity and pride that getting more
from government undermines that pride as
far as you're concerned, undermines that integrity.
(Ted) Absolutely.
(Eyal) You're saying absolutely as far as that's concerned. That is a
different interpretation than what AJ is
saying, which is government programs
should be, not demeaning, it's a way to
honor
people as they're growing older with
care.
It's like radically different ways of
looking at what would happen as government is supporting retirees.
(Karen) When I hear
you're talking about community we need
to take care of one another, it sounds
like you're mostly saying that means
that the government becomes our
community. Isn't there also a part of
that that then disincentivizes each of
us in our own giving because the
government will do it, and an
unintended consequence is we begin to lose
community, because we're no longer
obligated to one another in that way
because the government will take care of
it. And I know I've been guilty of that
sometimes. I'll say, "Well they're on
food stamps, they're fine," whereas before we had
quite that growth of that safety net, we
did just inherently, we took care of our
elderly, they were in our homes because
we had to, and community was built in.
(Eyal) So you're saying the very community that AJ wants
to achieve, if the vehicle is government,
people don't rise up to care for one
another because you think that this
person is being taken care of by this
program or that program, and the very
social relationships that AJ has
returned to over and over again don't
actually get invested in.
(AJ) This is more
than just our government. It's our
culture, it's our way of life. I don't
really want anything to do with how we
govern right now, but I'm trying to work
with you all to find that solution and
really work toward the middle to be
honest with you. As much as I am radical as sh*t.
(Steve) Says the socialist.
(AJ) Like that's
the beauty, like that's the thing about
our country, is we are able to sit down
and have these conversations, and I do
not take that for granted. I use my voice
all the time because I have a right to
use my voice and a lot of other places
in the world do not have that right. And
so we need to continue to do this,
because that's what all of the people
who came before us died for. That's why,
is so we can sit here and have this discourse.
(Akram) I really appreciate hearing your
thoughts and understanding your
worldviews and having you listen to
mine in a real way. I feel like through
these kinds of conversations with people
of extraordinarily different belief
systems,
it is always incremental. It's always
forward progress for the betterment of everyone.
(Ted) It's been really neat to share
this with intelligent conversation with
people a lot smarter than I am, a lot
more perceptive and open-minded than I am,
this is just a fine group of Americans
and only in this country can we have
such diverse opinions and still have
hope. America's best days are yet to come,
that's what I take away from this.
(Steven) I will name my appreciation for this helpful
reminder that people of opposing
political viewpoints aren't the
caricatures that I sort of often assume
that they are. It's been a joy for
me to encounter people who, who bring
more nuance and complexity to their
politics than I sort of lazily assume
is true most of the time. So thank you.
 
