[MUSIC PLAYING]
MIKE SPINELLI: Hey, welcome to
Road Testament on Drive.
Hit us up on @Drive
on Twitter.
We have an excellent
show today.
And the reason why it's
excellent is we have a special
guest who's come all the way
across the oceans blue.
Hello, Chris Harris.
CHRIS HARRIS: Hello, Mike
and your boobs.
You well, yeah?
MIKE SPINELLI: Me and
me boobs is fine.
CHRIS HARRIS: Your move.
MIKE SPINELLI: My moves.
So what are we talking about
today on Road Testament?
CHRIS HARRIS: Every time
you say Road Testament,
is it law to go--
Road--
MIKE SPINELLI: It's
a nervous tick.
It's become a thing
where I start and
then turn to the camera.
CHRIS HARRIS: Let me tell
you why I'm here,
MIKE SPINELLI: OK.
CHRIS HARRIS: That made
a noise, didn't it?
MIKE SPINELLI: It's OK.
CHRIS HARRIS: I'm
here to provide
moral support, Michael.
Because I think that this
is a difficult job.
MIKE SPINELLI: This is a very
difficult job, Chris Harris.
CHRIS HARRIS: So I'm here to
prove that actually it's not
very easy sitting in a studio
trying to talk about cars.
MIKE SPINELLI: No, it's
absolutely true.
And I know your on-screen
delivery is usually spot on,
as you say in your land.
No, no.
It's--
CHRIS HARRIS: It's Pakistan?
[LAUGHING]
MIKE SPINELLI: No, but I mean,
you're good on camera, right?
You've done camera
stuff before.
I'm--
CHRIS HARRIS: I'm not going
to say anything on that.
MIKE SPINELLI: All
right, all right.
No, I know you're very,
very modest.
By the way, very modest
individual, sign of genius.
Or, no, no all right.
See that was a joke.
See what I did?
That was--
all right.
So today we're talking about
cars and moving from
generation to generation.
And sometimes that's a good
thing, and sometimes
that's a bad thing.
CHRIS HARRIS: OK.
Forget all the messing around.
We're car geeks, all right?
MIKE SPINELLI: Yes.
CHRIS HARRIS: So we're
having a beer.
We'll inevitably get onto a
discussion of this stuff.
And I think a common theme at
the moment is that cars have
reached such a point of
technical brilliance, but also
sort of interactive
brilliance.
They're great fun to drive.
Is the next generation going to
be as good in all areas as
the past generation?
Because there's no doubt that
technically they're going to
become better and cleverer.
But does that mean they're
going to be
as much fun to drive?
We've just been through the
whole 997 to 991 process.
And I'm not entirely
convinced at times.
You drive a 991, electric
steering, and PDK gear change.
I'm not sure it's giving me
everything I was getting in
the old car.
I'm still not convinced
either way.
And we were discussing,
weren't we?
So we've got some significant
launches coming up.
Has it gone too far?
Do we need the technology?
And is it providing us
with what we want?
MIKE SPINELLI: And in making
cars easier to drive if you're
not a skilled driver, in doing
that, in creating things like
PDK that for the driver who
isn't skilled with the stick,
are we actually democratizing--
clipping the highs, and bringing
the lows up in a way?
You know what I mean?
It's--
CHRIS HARRIS: It's happening
everywhere, isn't it?
It happens in every
discipline, in
every walk of life.
Golf's a good example.
I know you're a keen
golfer yourself.
MIKE SPINELLI: Of course.
CHRIS HARRIS: But if you take
the average golf bat now, and
I give it to you, and you hit
the ball with that golf bat,
you'll hit it a lot better than
if I gave you a club from
20 years ago.
That would have just been a
mess and hurt your hands.
So I think that improvement in
motorcars is a good thing.
I don't think that every car
should be a widow-maker.
I really don't.
So 996 GT2 on a wet road
probably should have a health
warning on it.
It was amazing.
It's great fun for us to
do skids and stuff, to
say we can do it.
But to the majority of people
that own them, it was an
accident waiting to happen.
But has it gone too far?
So let's start this off
with 991 and 997.
Have you driven both?
MIKE SPINELLI: Yes.
Yes.
CHRIS HARRIS: OK.
If I had outside now a 997 GTS
late model, manual gear box,
and a 991 which had the PDK, and
the electric steering and
everything and I said--
you've got this car for three
days to enjoy driving.
Which one would you have?
MIKE SPINELLI: That's
an excellent--
I think--
CHRIS HARRIS: Well,
answer it then.
MIKE SPINELLI: I hadn't
thought of that.
And we hadn't rehearsed this.
So I would go--
I'm going to go with the GTS.
CHRIS HARRIS: Would you?
MIKE SPINELLI: Because
of the steering.
CHRIS HARRIS: You see?
So you've answered.
MIKE SPINELLI: And I don't
want to be one of those
wankers as you-- no, no.
I don't want to be one of
those idiot automotive
journalists that automatically
think that
electric steering is crap.
CHRIS HARRIS: The 911
died when they took
the fan off the engine.
MIKE SPINELLI: Exactly.
But there's something that I
enjoy about where the 911
stopped at the GTS.
CHRIS HARRIS: And I think there
is something in that for
me as well.
And the M3 is a very interesting
example.
I've just driven the
RS4, which--
it's not a car that people
get quite as
frothy about, the RS4.
Because it serves a purpose
that's a bit
different to the M3.
The M3 is the heartland of the
whole web community, fast,
sub-911 performance thing.
And that car is defined by being
rear driven, having a
manual gearbox, locking
differential, and a normal
aspirated engine.
And the next one is probably
going to have only paddles,
might well do.
And it's probably going to have
a turbocharged engine.
So does that mean that suddenly
everyone's going to
want to own a E90 series
M3 to keep it?
MIKE SPINELLI: I mean, it didn't
quite happen that way
with the E46 and the--
because when that car
came out, that
was perfection, right?
CHRIS HARRIS: I think it
still is in some ways.
MIKE SPINELLI: And it still
is in some ways.
But it hasn't--
people aren't hoarding
them though.
So you're right.
CHRIS HARRIS: I think they're
going to, though.
MIKE SPINELLI: Maybe eventually
they will.
CHRIS HARRIS: That's a tip.
Buy an E46 M3, either
a CS or a CSL.
Do you get CSL here or not?
MIKE SPINELLI: We didn't
get the CSL, no.
CHRIS HARRIS: Ooh, you really
missed out there.
MIKE SPINELLI: We don't get--
and this may be another show
when you come back-- but all of
the crap that we don't get
that you guys get.
CHRIS HARRIS: You're not
even getting the RS4.
I spoke to one of the brand
guys on the RS4 launch and
said, why aren't they
getting the RS4?
It'll be a massive market.
And they said, they wanted
the RS3 instead.
I would say that the E46 M3 will
be remembered as one of
the great performance cars.
In fact, I was thinking in my
head of a feature that I want
to do for Piston Heads, Piston
Heads, about the top 50
performance cars of
the last 50 years.
And I might be able to construct
an argument for the
E46 being the most complete
package of all.
There's not much wrong
with that car.
OK, the brakes are made
of butter, but you
can sort that out.
But it still looks fresh.
If you see a clean one-- that's
not been pimped and
messed around with--
you just go, wow.
So the car that followed it--
I mean, you could argue that the
E92 in terms of its fuel
range, and some of things it
does in the steering, are not
actually as good as the E46.
So did the M3 start the trend,
this downward spiral?
MIKE SPINELLI: Well, in a way,
I mean, it's when did
capability start trumping
decisions about a car's
driveability, right?
So--
CHRIS HARRIS: I can tell you
founded Jalopnik with that
incisive thinking.
[LAUGHING]
MIKE SPINELLI: But you
know what I'm saying.
It's really about--
and people blame Nurburgring
times.
CHRIS HARRIS: This is
my pondering face.
I think it started about
five or six years ago.
I think we could also then come
back to your question,
when did it start.
Let's try and define it.
What are the systems that
define the movement from
interaction to technical
excellence?
They are chassis systems,
aren't they?
Anything to do with traction
control, your control,
stability, damping, switchable
damping,
electric power steering.
Anything that gets in the way
of your hands on the--
or feet or bum on the control
systems of the car to the
actual control moving--
is evil.
That's when we should
be going--
MIKE SPINELLI: Yeah.
Well, when processors got fast
enough for them to be able to
take sensor data and translate
it through the bus into the
various hardware bits that make
all that stuff possible,
I think that's when
shit started going
a little bit crazy.
CHRIS HARRIS: Can you get
milk out of those?
[LAUGHING]
MIKE SPINELLI: The moobs?
[BEEPING]
CHRIS HARRIS: You've explained
it in a way that I can't.
Because I can't even turn
a Apple Mac on.
So for me, you're quite right.
It's when people started doing
more things with laptops than
they did with screwdrivers
and honest tools.
MIKE SPINELLI: Right.
There's a curve somewhere
where that became--
CHRIS HARRIS: 2002.
Somewhere around
there, I think.
And for me it's really
interesting.
Because the next gen of cars--
we can, I think, assume
that the manual
gearbox is now dead.
I mean, I'm there fighting for
the survival of the thing
because I feel it
so passionately.
But much to my irritation and
sadness, I can't find a
Ferrari 599 with a manual
gear box in the UK.
There is no such car.
It was never delivered.
You've got some here.
And a guy on Twitter was
corresponding with me early
today saying, I have one.
It was a bit of a nightmare
in first and second gear.
I then said, but was it good,
once you got it going?
And he went, magic,
that open gate.
But I think the move towards
technology in cars is going to
mean that cars that obviously
celebrated not having
technology in the past, will
become more collectible.
So I think an M3 with a manual
gear box is going to be worth
twice an SMG car.
I do.
I had a Ferrari 575 manual
with Fiorano.
I mean that just sounds like
me waving my willie around.
But it was a really cool car.
But because it's got a manual
gear box, that is now worth a
load more money.
Because people realize that if
you're going to drive it once
a month, much nicer to
do this than do this.
Other cars that are coming
up, Golf GTI--
is that going to be worse than
the car it replaces?
Is it going to be less fun?
I'm not so sure in terms
of the Golf.
Because the Golf already is
quite a numb thing, isn't it?
So to be better, it's just got
to be a bit quicker and a bit
more technically capable.
So maybe this only applies
to cars that are
more than just a device.
MIKE SPINELLI: Right.
Well, I mean a lot of it has
come down from starting with
safety stuff, right?
So they've had to make
cars heavier.
And once they can lighten them
up with new materials though,
maybe you can go back to the
kind of feel that a--
if you can pull the average
sports sedan down from 3,800
pounds down to--
CHRIS HARRIS: I have no
idea what that means.
MIKE SPINELLI: Well,
what's kilograms?
3,800--
CHRIS HARRIS: That's what?
1,700 kilograms.
MIKE SPINELLI: 1,700.
So 1,700 kilograms down to
something more in the range of
1,400, say.
And then the forces acting on
every corner become less.
And you don't need to over
dampen and over tire.
CHRIS HARRIS: A lot of it's
down to compliance and
legislation, though isn't it?
For example, if you've got a
car like the RS4 with its
S-tronic gearbox, when it goes
through the-- certainly in
Europe-- when it goes through
the European drive cycles for
fuel economy, it's 20% more
efficient, because they can
program the S-tronic gearbox to
behave a certain way during
all the cycle tests.
So manual gearboxes and that
kind of stuff is just, it's
basically being outlawed.
And I find it really
disappointing.
What other cars are coming up
that could also be considered
to be less enjoyable?
What about this F12 M?
That's an interesting one.
Because the F12 replaces
the 599.
And I think the 599 can probably
be classed as a
technology car, can't it?
There were a few manual ones,
but it was very much traction
control, electronic
differential.
It had some very
clever things.
But it didn't have
the diff, did it?
It had the F1 track.
And that car was very much
a sort of PlayStation
device, wasn't it?
You had two hands on the wheel,
the paddles, and you
didn't do much else.
The F12 will be the same.
This is another thing then.
By just throwing more
performance at a car, do you
make it better?
MIKE SPINELLI: Right.
And that's-- and as we know,
from the cars we just even
mentioned that that's
not the case, right?
CHRIS HARRIS: I agree.
MIKE SPINELLI: And I think in
some ways horsepower is
becoming a kind of consolation
prize for that happening.
So OK, it's got 700--
let's say, the F12 is
going to have 700--
CHRIS HARRIS: The lord
taketh away.
MIKE SPINELLI: The lord taketh
away and addeth the
horsepower.
So you end up with a 700
horsepower, or even the
Reventon, right?
Six something, right?
What is it?
630?
I don't even remember
what it is, right?
CHRIS HARRIS: Well, the
Reventon thing.
Or the Aventador.
MIKE SPINELLI: The Aventador.
CHRIS HARRIS: Oh, that's
700 horsepower.
MIKE SPINELLI: That's straight
700, exactly, OK.
CHRIS HARRIS: Just the 700.
MIKE SPINELLI: Right,
but just 700.
It's a remarkably quick car.
As much fun--
well all right, well, maybe
Lamborghini's a bad example.
Let's not put a full Lamborghini
on the table.
Because it is better than a
Murcielago, better to drive.
CHRIS HARRIS: The reality
is-- you're quite right
to put it like that.
I think that it's very
difficult to present
technology as an overtly
positive sales device to
people that want an
emotional car.
You can do it in normal cars,
because you can say this is
safer, more efficient.
And people go out and buy cars
in volume like that.
But you can't do that
in terms of--
why is he waving at me?
MIKE SPINELLI: I don't know.
CHRIS HARRIS: It's
very off putting.
MIKE SPINELLI: He's doing
a Pete Townsend.
MALE SPEAKER: That's for you.
CHRIS HARRIS: But you
can't actually--
it's difficult to sell
an emotional
product on those terms.
And you're quite right.
So they just give
bigger numbers.
Like, I drove a 599
earlier this week.
And in second gear, full noise
on a British A road, it feels
antisocially fast.
It feels so much faster than
either of the things we were
driving today-- driving
the ZL1 and the GT500.
Honestly, 599 fully
lit is outrageous.
If you got out of that car--
and then said to the person that
had been sitting next to
you, wetting the seat--
you said to them, the one that
replaces this in a few month's
time has got 100 horsepower
more, they'd just
go, that's not true.
It can't be possible.
So I'm not sure it does actually
add an awful lot
more, this extra power
we're getting.
It's dead exciting.
Quite the way we'll use
it, I don't know.
But you know the sad thing?
I honestly thinks that outside
of this room not many people
care about this stuff.
MIKE SPINELLI: And that's--
yeah.
I mean, that's--
CHRIS HARRIS: And it
just makes me go--
I just don't want to know.
MIKE SPINELLI: I know
it's become--
sports cars used to be
something that was a
mainstream product.
Now it's becoming
like a jet ski.
It's almost becoming like a
power sport that you do or
that you get on the side.
And you drive your Prius
during the week.
CHRIS HARRIS: But are we going
to go through a regeneration,
where we relearn this stuff?
And we become passionate
about it again?
HiFi did this.
For many years, in the '80s,
HiFi became more about buttons
and widgets and gadgets.
And then suddenly sometime in
the '90s, I think people just
went, do you know what?
That's actually bullshit.
Let's just have a pure amplifier
with a source nob
and a volume nob, and not
have tone controls.
Let's have it plain
unadulterated.
And that's kind of persisted to
this point, and become the
way that people behave
with HiFi.
So why isn't it happening
with sports cars?
Why do things have to get
so flipping complicated?
MIKE SPINELLI: Well,
here's what--
I mean, do you think that we
might just be technology-wise
in a transitional stage?
I mean, obviously, the auto
industry is always in a
transitional stage.
Because they're always looking
for the next thing.
But do you think that with
lighter materials, stronger
lighter stuff, more carbon
fiber, maybe lighter cars,
maybe better engineering,
things like the magnetic
dampers, for example, that can
do all kinds of different
things, right?
Or--
CHRIS HARRIS: None
of them right.
I think what we'll see is a
tangential family of cars for
this purpose.
For want of a better phrase, for
flat Earthers like you and
me, I think that manufacturers
will make stuff that will
satisfy us.
And it will be basic.
And it will be carbon bodied,
maybe even carbon structured.
And it will have, maybe, if
we're lucky, a lever here,
three petals, and
it will be pure.
But it probably won't be
from the brands that we
want it to be from.
It probably won't be from the
Ferraris and the Porsches and
the ones that we'd love
it to be from.
It might be from clever,
malleable, fast-moving
companies like this
little Rennsport--
looks like it could be
very interesting--
Toyota with the FRS, GT8
whatever you want to call it.
That's a really profound
statement at this point in
time, I think, to say, two
driven rear wheels, manual
gearbox, off you go.
I think that's a strong
statement.
So I think it will, sadly,
unlike HiFi--
the motorcar is scrutinized on
so many levels, on so many
sociopolitical, even
environmental levels.
It's under scrutiny
the whole time.
And it has to be seen to be
moving forward and to be
making itself cleaner, and more
responsible within every
community that it operates.
And that means it's going to
have to adopt all these
technologies.
And the next BMW lightweight
sports car, the I whatever,
might have a carbon shell.
But sadly, it'll change
gears itself.
And we're stuck with it.
I feel quite depressed
now, Mike.
Can we get a drink?
MIKE SPINELLI: Yeah, let's
go get a drink.
I was going to say maybe we
should put away the knives.
Put the knives away.
MALE SPEAKER: OK.
CHRIS HARRIS: Just
go and buy an E--
MIKE SPINELLI: That one there.
CHRIS HARRIS: Go and
buy an E46 M3.
I'm now absolutely convinced
that that's the car--
18 inch wheels, because the 19s
were a little bit bling.
So 18s, manual.
I like the heated
seats option.
If you don't have heated seats,
you've got the gap on
the button thing as well.
So the heated seats are good.
And also, when you buy
it, check in the air
ducts for the brakes.
Because if they've been removed,
that means it's
probably done some
track workout.
MIKE SPINELLI: And you could
almost get one cheaper than
what a good E30 is
going for now.
Because those things
are just-- have
gone off the chart.
CHRIS HARRIS: Yeah,
the E30, it is--
MIKE SPINELLI: It's gone.
We missed it.
CHRIS HARRIS: That's another
Road Testament.
Is the E30 M3 overrated?
Ducks!
MIKE SPINELLI: Whoa, thump.
[BEEP]
Road Testament, that's
it for this week.
Thank you very much.
Chris Harris in New York.
Could you imagine this?
It's awesome.
CHRIS HARRIS: JF took me to the
place that they used to
film the Bing on The Supranos.
I mean--
MIKE SPINELLI: Hey, come on.
Come on.
Who's better than you now?
Who's better than this guy?
CHRIS HARRIS: I don't know--
Mike Spinelli?
[LAUGHING]
[MUSIC PLAYING]
