>>> ON THIS EDITION OF 
"INDEPENDENT SOURCES," UNHEALTHY
ADVERTISING, WHY FOOD AND 
BEVERAGE COMPANIES ARE DIRECTLY 
TARGETING VULNERABLE 
POPULATIONS IN POOR AND MINORITY
COMMUNITIES WITH ADS FOR 
THEIR PRODUCTS.
AND READING WITHOUT WALLS, THE 
EFFORT TO CREATE MORE DIVERSITY 
IN MAINSTREAM BOOKS AND COMICS
AND WHY THERE'S STILL 
SOME RESISTANCE.
♪ [THEME MUSIC] ♪
>>> "INDEPENDENT SOURCES." 
YOUR WINDOW TO THE CITY'S 
ETHNIC AND IMMIGRANT 
COMMUNITIES. YOUR HOST
THIS WEEK ZYPHUS LEBRUN.
>> A RECENT STUDY PUBLISHED BY
THE JOURNAL OF URBAN
HEALTH SUGGESTS THAT MTA
REGULATED ADS WITH UNHEALTHY 
FOODS AND BEVERAGES ARE 
TARGETING VULNERABLE COMMUNITIES
IN THE BRONX. 
THE STUDY WAS CO AUTHORED BY 
RESEARCHERS FROM THE ALBERT
EINSTEIN COLLEGE OF MEDICINE
AND LEHMAN COLLEGE IN THE BRONX
AND NEW YORK
UNIVERSITY IN MANHATTAN. 
IT CORRELATED SUBWAY RIDERSHIP 
INFORMATION WITH CENSUS DATA AND
DIETARY INTAKE STATISTICS FROM 
CITY HEALTH DEPARTMENT SURVEY. 
AMONG FINDINGS WERE THAT LESS 
HEATHFUL ADS WERE DIRECTLY 
CORRELATED WITH POVERTY AND 
LOWER HIGH SCHOOL GRADUATION 
RATES AT A TIME WHEN ONE IN FIVE
KINDERGARTEN STUDENTS AND 
MORE THAN HALF OF THE CITY'S
POPULATION IF OVERWEIGHT.
I SPOKE WITH TWO AUTHORS
OF THE STUDY,
DR. SEAN LUCAN AND
OMAR SANON ABOUT THEIR FINDINGS.
DR. SEAN LUCAN, OMAR SANON,
THANK YOU FOR BEING IN STUDIO.
SO LET'S JUST GET STARTED WITH 
THIS.
RECENT STUDY. 
WHY WAS THIS STUDY DONE?
WHY DID YOU GUYS CHOOSE TO DO 
THE STUDY?
>> I AM A FAMILY DOCTOR AND I 
TAKE CARE OF PATIENTS CHILDREN 
THROUGH ADULT. 
MOST OF MY PATIENTS ARE 
OVERWEIGHT AND SUFFER FROM A 
VARIETY OF DISEASES AND I 
REALIZE THEY HAVE TREMENDOUS 
OBSTACLES TO EATING BETTER. 
MOST OF THE RESEARCH THAT I
DO AT EINSTEIN COLLEGE OF
MEDICINE IS LOOK
AT THE SOURCES OF FOOD AND
THE LANDSCAPE THAT PEOPLE HAVE 
ACCESS TO AND HOW IT MAY 
INFLUENCE THE EATING BEHAVIORS. 
WHAT I FIND IS THAT THE FOOD 
ENVIRONMENT IS BEYOND JUST THE 
FOOD SOURCES THAT ARE OUT THERE.
THERE ARE MESSAGES TO EAT FOOD 
AND WHAT ADVERTISERS ARE TELLING
PEOPLE THAT THEY
SHOULD CONSUME AND SO I 
REALLY WANTED TO GET A SENSE
OF WHAT THOSE MESSAGES WERE
WHO THEY WERE FOCUSED ON
AND WHAT THEY WERE TARGETING 
AND WHAT TYPES OF ADVERTISING 
PEOPLE WERE EXPOSED TO
IN THEIR DAILY LIVES.
I THOUGHT THE SUBWAY SYSTEM OR 
TRANSIT SYSTEM MIGHT BE A GOOD 
PLACE TO START. 
>> NOW, THE RESEARCH WAS 
FOCUSSED IN THE BRONX 
SPECIFICALLY. 
ANY REASON FOR THAT?
>> A COUPLE REASONS, ONE, I'M 
LOCATED IN THE BRONX. 
MY PATIENTS ARE IN THE BRONX AND
THE HEALTH SYSTEM SO IT WAS A 
PERSONAL QUEST AS MUCH AS IT WAS
A RESEARCH QUEST. 
I WANTED TO KNOW WHAT MY 
PATIENTS WERE EXPOSED TO AND THE
MESSAGES THEY WERE GETTING AND 
HOW IT MAY INFLUENCE DIETARY 
DECISIONS. 
>> ONE OF THE FINDINGS WAS THAT 
THE ADVERTISEMENTS WERE FOUND IN
AREAS WHERE POPULATIONS WERE 
EITHER MINORITY POPULATIONS AND 
WHEN ADS WERE IN SPANISH THEY 
WERE TARGETED AT COMMUNITIES 
WHERE THERE IS NOT A HIGH LEVEL 
OF EDUCATION. 
DO YOU WANT TO EXTRAPOLATE A 
LITTLE MORE ON THAT FOR THE 
AUDIENCE?
>> I SHOULD SAY ADS WERE 
EVERYWHERE. 
THERE IS TONS OF ADVERTISING. 
OMAR CAN SPEAK A LITTLE TO THAT 
IN TERMS OF THE ADS AND WHAT WAS
AVAILABLE IN THE DIFFERENT 
STATIONS IN PARTICULAR SOME 
STATIONS THAT HAD A 
DISPROPORTIONATE NUMBER OF ADS. 
>> SO MY COLLEAGUE AND I, WE 
RODE ALL SEVEN LINES IN THE 
BRONX AND STOPPED AT 68 
DIFFERENT STATIONS. 
SO WE ASSESSED THE ADS FROM THE 
ENTRANCE TO EXITS AND ON THE 
PLATFORM. 
WE NOTED THE COMPANIES THEY 
FEATURED AND ALSO THE SIZES, AS 
WELL. 
AND SO SOME OF THE STATIONS 
FEATURED NO ADS, BUT MORE 
SURPRISINGLY A LOT OF STATIONS 
INCLUDING THE ONE AT YANKEE 
STADIUM FEATURED ADS FOR 
UNHEALTHY FOODS. 
>> NOW, WHO WERE THE BIGGEST 
CULPRITS AS REGARDS TO THESE 
ADVERTISEMENTS?
>> GOING OFF OF LIKE OVER 200 
ADS IN TOTAL BUT FOR UNHEALTHY 
FOOD ADS HAD 20. 
THE BIGGEST CULPRIT WAS RED 
BULL. 
OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD, A LOT OF
ALCOHOL COMPANIES APPEARED SUCH 
AS COORS LIGHT, A LOT OF HARD 
ALCOHOL AND THINGS LIKE THAT 
ALSO APPEARED, AS WELL. 
>> YANKEE STADIUM IS A STATION 
WHERE YOU WOULD EXPECT A LOT OF 
ADVERTISING. 
THERE IS A LOT OF FOOT TRAFFIC 
THERE AND HIGH POTENTIAL 
VIEWERSHIP. 
YOU WOULDN'T BE SURPRISED TO SEE
A LOT OF ADVERTIING THERE. 
WHAT WAS STRIKING WAS THAT WHEN 
WE LOOKED ACROSS THE SYSTEM 
EXCLUDING YANKEE STADIUM WAS 
THAT THE UNHEALTHY FOOD AND 
BEVERAGE ADVERTISING DIDN'T 
CORRELATE WITH RIDERSHIP. 
IT WASN'T THAT THEY WERE 
DIRECTED AT WIDEST POSSIBLE 
AUDIENCES BUT SPECIFIC 
AUDIENCES. 
MARKETERS WEREN'T LOOKING FOR 
VIEWERS IN GENERAL, THEY WERE 
LOOKING FOR SPECIFIC VIEWERS. 
>> AND THOSE TENDED TO BE 
VULNERABLE HIGH RISK 
POPULATIONS. 
>> DID YOU GUYS FIND A 
CORRELATION BETWEEN THE ADS AND 
THE AREAS WHERE THOSE NUMBERS OF
HYPERTENSION AND DIABETES WERE 
GREATEST?
>> SO OMAR AND OTHER STUDENTS 
DID A FEAT GOING INTO THE BRONX 
AND LOOKING AT THE -- RODE ALL 
SEVEN LINES AND STOPPED AT ALL 
68 STATIONS AND LOOKED AT EVERY 
AD, OVER 1550. 
>> WHEN WE WERE GOING FROM 
STATION TO STATION OUR RESULTS 
WEREN'T IMMEDIATELY CLEAR. 
IT WAS WHEN WE TOOK OUR ENTIRE 
DATA SET THAT A CLEAR PICTURE 
STARTED TO EMERGE. 
THE SITUATION WAS DEFINITELY 
SUBTLE BUT DATA SHOWS TARGETING 
IS GOING ON. 
>> AND JUST TO CLARIFY THAT, 
OMAR, AND OTHER STUDENTS WENT 
OUT AND COLLECTED DATA. 
I LINKED THAT DATA TO DATA ON 
RIDERSHIP FROM MTA TO DATA ON 
DEMOGRAPHICS FROM THE CENSUS 
BUREAU AND DATA ON HEALTH 
PARAMETERS FROM THE NEW YORK 
CITY DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH. 
LOOKING AT THAT WE COULD MAKE 
CORRELATIONS AND SAY WHERE WERE 
THE ADS AND HOW DID THEY TIE TO 
DIFFERENT CHARACTERISTICS OF THE
COMMUNITIES?
SO IT WAS CLEAR THAT THE ADS FOR
LESS HEALTHY FOODS AND BEVERAGES
WERE FOUND IN HIGHER RISK, MORE 
VULNERABLE COMMUNITIES. 
COMMUNITIES WITH LOWER 
EDUCATIONAL ATTAINMENT, HIGH 
RATES OF POVERTY, MORE MINORITY 
REPRESENTATION, HIGHER 
PERCENTAGES OF BLACK AND 
HISPANIC RESIDENTS AND MORE 
CHILDREN AND SAW CORRELATIONS
WITH HEALTH STATISTICS. 
THESE UNHEALTHY FOODS WERE BEING
MARKETED IN COMMUNITIES THAT 
WERE SUFFERING FROM LOW FRUIT 
AND VEGETABLE INTAKE, HIGH RATES
OF DIABETES, HIGH CHOLESTEROL 
AND HYPERTENSION. 
>> I KNOW THERE HAS TO BE,
THESE AD COMPANIES, THEY CHOOSE 
SPECIFIC AREAS WHERE THEY WANT 
THESE ADS TO GO. 
IN SOME CASES IT MIGHT BE MORE 
EXPENSIVE TO TARGET CERTAIN 
AREAS. 
DID YOU GUYS FIND THAT THESE ADS
WERE BEING PLACED IN HIGHER COST
TO THESE COMPANIES?
>> SPEAKING STRICTLY AS A 
SCIENTIST WE FOUND THESE 
CORRELATIONS. 
AND TO EXPLAIN THE CORRELATION, 
ONE EXPLANATION IS THAT THERE IS
TARGETING. 
THE OTHER IS THAT THERE IS 
TARGETING OF ALL OTHER PRODUCTS 
OUT THERE, MOVIES, 
ENTERTAINMENT, THE CELL PHONE 
COMPANIES, CABLE COMPANIES, 
EVERYONE ELSE THAT WAS IN THE 
SUBWAY STATION. 
IT'S CONCEIVABLE -- YOU CAN MAKE
AN ARGUMENT THAT ALL THOSE OTHER
COMPANIES WERE JUST GEARING ADS 
TO HEALTHY WHITE WEALTHY ADULTS 
AND THAT THE ONLY AD SPACE LEFT 
WAS THAT FOR THE UNHEALTHY 
ADVERTISERS TO ADVERTISE IN. 
THAT SEEMS LIKE A HIGHLY 
UNLIKELY SCENARIO SO IT MAKES US
THINK THERE IS TARGETING AT 
PLAY. 
TO THE POINT ABOUT COST, YES IT 
COSTS MORE TO PLACE ADS IN 
SPECIFIC STATIONS. 
SO PER CONVERSATION WITH MTA FOR
RANDOM DISTRIBUTION IT COSTS A 
SET AMOUNT. 
IF YOU WANT TO SELECT THE 
STATIONS WHERE YOU WANT TO PUT 
THE ADS IT COSTS NOT QUITE TWICE
AS MUCH BUT SUBSTANTIALLY MORE. 
IF THERE IS TARGETING GOING ON 
AS THAT DATA STRONGLY SUGGESTS 
THERE IS THE COMPANIES ARE 
PAYING A PREMIUM FOR IT AND THEN
THE QUESTION IS WHY. 
IT SEEMED OBVIOUS THAT YOU DON'T
PAY THE PREMIUM UNLESS YOU ARE 
MAKING AN INVESTMENT WHERE YOU 
GET A RETURN. 
IN TARGETING SPECIFIC GROUPS AS 
OPPOSED TO THE WIDEST POSSIBLE 
AUDIENCES THAT HAS TO RELATE TO 
GREATER PROFIT. 
IT MEANS I THINK TAKING 
ADVANTAGE OF VULNERABLE 
COMMUNITIES. 
>> OMAR, IN THE PROCESS OF 
COLLECTING INFORMATION DID YOU 
EVER FEEL THAT PERHAPS IN JUST 
TALKING THAT HE OR SHE GOT A 
SENSE OF WHAT WAS GOING ON?
BEING APAIR OF THE PROPERTY OR 
THE MATRIX IF YOU WILL?
>> THAT IS PART OF THE PROBLEM, 
NOT BEING AWARE OF WHAT 
ADVERTISING INFLUENCE HAS ON A 
PERSON. 
GOING FROM STATION TO STATION, A
LOT OF PEOPLE SEEMED OBLIVIOUS 
AS TO WHY WE ARE GOING AND 
RECORDING DIFFERENT ADS AND SOME
PEOPLE ASK US WHY WE WERE DOING 
IT. 
WE EXPLAIN TO THEM WHAT OUR END 
GOAL WAS. 
I THINK IT IS PART OF THE 
PROBLEM, AS WELL. 
>> I WAS JUST GOING TO SAY WHILE
THE DATA CLEARLY SHOWS TARGETING
AND THAT SEEMED UNAMBIGUOUS NO 
MATTER HOW WE RAN THE NUMBERS, 
THAT FINDING ISN'T SO OBVIOUS 
WHEN YOU ARE RIDING IN THE 
STATIONS THEMSELVES. 
THAT BECOMES OBVIOUS WHEN YOU 
LOOK AT THE WHOLE SYSTEM AS A 
TOTAL AND LINK IT WITH OTHER 
DATA SETS. 
I THINK THIS IS EASY FOR 
COMPANIES TO GET AWAY WITH THIS 
KIND OF BEHAVIOR BECAUSE IT IS 
SO HARD TO DETECT. 
WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE TOTALITY OF
THE DATA IT'S PRETTY 
INESCAPABLE. 
>> WHAT DO YOU HOPE WILL COME 
OUT OF THIS RESEARCH?
>> I THINK ONE THING IS JUST 
GREATER AWARENESS. 
SO RAISING AWARENESS IN 
COMMUNITIES, PARTICULARLY 
COMMUNITIES THAT SEEM TO BE 
TARGETED TO ALLOW THEM, GIVE 
THEM THE INFORMATION THEY NEED 
TO VOTE WITH THEIR WALLETS TO 
SAY WE DO NOT ACCEPT THIS 
TARGETING. 
WE DO NOT ACCEPT THIS TAKING 
ADVANTAGE OF KIND OF POPULATIONS
THAT NEED THIS TREATMENT. 
AND FOR OTHER COMMUNITIES TO SAY
LET'S HOLD COMPANIES 
ACCOUNTABLE. 
I'M NOT PART OF ANY OF THESE 
VULNERABLE COMMUNITIES TO WHICH 
THESE ADVERTISERS ARE TARGETING.
I MIGHT CHOOSE TO SAY I'M NOT 
GOING TO SUPPORT THIS TYPE OF 
BEHAVIOR. 
I WILL HOLD THESE COMPANIES 
ACCOUNTABLE AND SAY THAT THIS 
WILL NOT STAND. 
NOW, THAT'S JUST ON THE 
INFORMATION SIDE, PUBLIC 
AWARENESS SIDE AND CONSUMER 
ACTION SIDE. 
I THINK GOVERNMENT HAS A ROLE TO
PLAY IN THIS, TOO, AND CERTAINLY
CAN. 
THERE IS ALREADY EXISTING 
REGULATION OUT THERE RESTRICTING
TOBACCO PRODUCTS. 
SINCE TOBACCO CAN'T BE 
ADVERTISED IN THE TRANSIT SYSTEM
AND THERE IS MOVEMENT TO TRY TO 
GET A BAN ON ALCOHOL ADVERTISING
IN THE SUBWAY SYSTEM AND THE 
BROADER TRANSIT SYSTEM. 
I THINK THAT MIGHT BE A FIRST
STEP IN ADDRESSING AT LEAST ONE 
ASPECT OF UNHEALTHY BEVERAGES 
AND DECIDING WHERE THAT GOES AND
HOW THAT MAY EXPAND TO COVER A 
BROADER RANGE OF PRODUCTS 
REMAINS TO BE SEEN. 
I THINK THAT IS A STEP IN THE 
DIRECTION OF ACTION THAT AT 
LEAST GOVERNMENT CAN PLAY IN 
THIS. 
>> DR. SEAN LUCAN AND OMAR THANK
YOU FOR BEING IN STUDIO. 
THIS WAS A VERY ENLIGHTENING 
CONVERSATION. 
>>> STILL TO COME ON THE SHOW, 
WHY THERE IS MORE HATRED IN 
AMERICA. 
>>> LAWMAKERS AROUND THE
COUNTRY ARE RESPONDING TO
A SHARP JUMP IN HATE CRIMES BY 
TRYING TO STRENGTHEN POLICIES 
AND LAWS TO CARRY STIFFER 
POLICIES AND LAWS THAT 
WILL CARRY STIFFER PENALITIES 
FOR THOSE FOUND GUILTY OF 
SUCH ACTS.
THE FBI REPORTS THAT THERE HAS 
BEEN A SEVEN PERCENT INCREASE IN
SUCH CRIMES BETWEEN 2014 AND 
2015. 
THOSE ARE MARKED BY SHARP SPIKES
IN CRIMES AGAINST JEWS AND 
MUSLIMS. 
I SPOKE WITH LECIA BROOKS OF 
SOUTHERN POVERTY LAW CENTER VIA 
SKYPE.  THE SPLC IS A NON-PROFIT
CIVIL RIGHTS ORGANIZATION 
THAT COMPILES SUCH DATA.
WE TALKED ABOUT THE STATISTICS 
AND WHAT IS BEHIND THE NUMBERS. 
>> THANK YOU FOR JOINING US 
TODAY. 
>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME. 
>> SOUTHERN POVERTY LAW CENTER, 
YOU GUYS RELEASED STATISTICS 
SAYING THAT HATE CRIMES ARE ON 
THE RISE IN THIS COUNTRY. 
LET'S TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT 
THAT. 
CAN YOU TELL ME BY HOW MUCH YOU 
GUYS ARE SEEING AN INCREASE?
>> THE SOUTHERN POVERTY LAW 
CENTER HAS DONE ANNUAL 
ACCOUNTING OF ACTIVE HATE AND
EXTREMIST GROUPS IN THE
UNITED STATES. 
WE DO THIS COUNT EVERY YEAR. 
WHAT WAS A LITTLE DIFFERENT WITH
LAST YEAR'S COUNT FOR 2016 IT 
WAS AN INCREASE OF ABOUT 25 HATE
GROUPS, ADDITIONAL GROUPS.
WHAT WE NOTED IS THE INCREASE IN
HATE BIAS INCIDENTS THAT 
HAPPENED IN IMMEDIATE AFTERMATH
OF THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION. 
>> NOW, I KNOW THAT IN PAST 
YEARS THERE IS AN ASSOCIATION 
AND CORRELATION OF SPIKES WITH 
DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENCIES WHETHER 
THAN REPUBLICAN. 
IS THERE ANALYSIS AS TO WHY THAT
SORT OF SHIFT?
>> WELL, WE THINK THAT THE 
CURRENT INCREASE IN HATE GROUPS 
AND HATE GROUP ACTIVITY IS 
DEFINITELY CONNECTED TO THE 
PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN. 
NOW, I THINK EVERYONE WOULD 
AGREE THAT IT WAS PROBABLY THE 
MOST UGLY CAMPAIGN IN RECENT 
HISTORY. 
IT WAS FULL OF HATEFUL RHETORIC 
BEGINNING WITH DEMUMINIZATION OF
IMMIGRANTS AND IN PARTICULAR 
MEXICANS WENT ON TO TARGET AND 
VILIFY MUSLIMS. 
AND SO AFTER THE ELECTION WE ARE
NOT AT ALL SURPRISED TO SEE AN 
INCREASE IN HATE OR BIAS 
INCIDENTS TARGETING THOSE 
PARTICULAR POPULATIONS. 
WE WERE PREPARED FOR BUT IS 
ALARMING IS THAT YOU NOTE THAT 
WHITE NATIONALISTS AND WHITE 
SUPREMACISTS HAVE BEEN 
EMBOLDENED BY THE ELECTION OF 
MR. TRUMP AND THIS PHENOMENON OF
HATE AND BIAS INCIDENTS 
HAPPENING IN PLACES LIKE NEW 
YORK IS PRETTY ALARMING. 
>> ONE OF THE THINGS COMING OUT 
OF ALL OF THIS IS THE CONCERN AS
REGARDS TO THE NUMBERS AND HOW 
THE NUMBERS BETWEEN STATISTICS 
FOUND BY FBI AND SOME STATISTICS
THAT YOU GUYS HAVE FOUND, THEY 
DON'T ACTUALLY MATCHUP. 
WHAT IS BEHIND THAT, DO YOU 
THINK?
>> THAT'S VERY INTERESTING 
BECAUSE THE NUMBERS ARE ALL 
WRONG. 
FBI, DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 
NUMBERS RELATIVE TO HATE CRIMES 
ARE SELF-REPORTED BY POLICE 
AGENCIES OR POLICE AGENCIES 
SELF-REPORT HATE CRIMES OR HATE 
INCIDENTS TO THE FBI. 
SO BECAUSE THEY ARE SELF 
REPORTING NOT EVERYONE DOES IT 
WITH INTEGRITY. 
EXAMPLE I LIKE TO USE A COUPLE 
YEARS AGO THE STATE OF 
MISSISSIPPI SHOWED NO HATE 
CRIMES FOR AN ENTIRE YEAR AND 
THAT IS PRETTY HARD TO BELIEVE. 
SO WHAT WE ARE DOING AT SOUTHERN
POVERTY LAW CENTER WE HOPE TO 
REALLY IMPROVE THE DATA. 
DATA COLLECTION AROUND HATE 
CRIMES HAS ALWAYS BEEN 
NOTORIOUSLY LOW. 
>> AND HOW DO YOU HOPE TO DO 
THAT?
THAT WAS MY NEXT QUESTION IN 
REGARDS TO IMPROVING THE 
COLLECTION OF SUCH INFORMATION. 
>> SOUTHERN POVERTY LAW CENTER 
OPENED A WEB PORTAL CALLED
#REPORTHATE RIGHT AFTER
THE ELECTION.
IT OPENED ON NOVEMBER 9. 
IT'S STILL OPEN. 
WHAT WE ARE DOING IS GATHERING 
INFORMATION AND INVITING PEOPLE 
TO REPORT EITHER BEING 
VICTIMIZED BY HATE CRIME OR 
WITNESSING A HATE CRIME. 
WHAT WE WILL DO WITH THAT DATA 
IS DRILL DOWN TO FIND OUT WHAT 
IS REALLY HAPPENING. 
THERE ARE SOME NEWS AGENCIES, 
JOURNALISTS WHO ARE ALSO DOING 
SIMILAR WORK, SOME SCHOOLS OF 
JOURNALISM ARE DOING SIMILAR 
WORK. 
WE HOPE TO WORK WITH AGENCIES 
ACROSS THE COUNTRY WHO ARE 
COLLECTING HATE CRIME DATA, 
HUMAN RELATIONS COMMISSIONS HAVE
BEEN DOING IT, EVERYONE HAS BEEN
DOING IT. 
WE NEED TO PULL THAT DATA 
TOGETHER AND DO SOME GOOD 
ANALYSIS OF IT AND GET A BETTER 
PICTURE OF WHAT IS HAPPENING 
AROUND HATE CRIMES IN THE 
COUNTRY. 
>> DO YOU THINK THERE HAS BEEN 
ENOUGH OF A RESPONSE AT THE 
GOVERNMENTAL LEVEL?
BECAUSE I KNOW IN MARCH THERE 
WAS A LETTER SENT IN REGARDS TO 
ADDRESSING THESE ISSUES. 
HAS THERE BEEN ENOUGH OF A 
RESPONSE FROM THE 
GOVERNMENTAL LEVEL? 
>> NOT AT ALL. 
WE CAN SEE IT IN WHAT THAT 
HORRIFIC KILLING IN NEW YORK, 
THE MAN WHO TOOK A BUS FROM 
MARYLAND TO NEW YORK
TO KILL BLACK MEN.
WE ARE STILL WAITING ON THE 
ADMINISTRATION TO STRONGLY 
CONDEMN THAT AND TO IDENTIFY IT 
AS A CASE OF DOMESTIC TERRORISM.
SO WE ARE CERTAINLY CALLING ON 
ATTORNEY GENERAL AND THE TRUMP 
ADMINISTRATION TO STRONGLY 
CONDEMN THESE HATE CRIMES. 
>> IS THERE ANY CONCERN AS 
REGARDS TO RETALIATION FOR SUCH 
HATE CRIMES AMONG THE GROUPS 
THAT ARE TARGETED?
>> NO, NO, NO. 
THAT'S NOT HOW IT TYPICALLY 
WORKS. 
HATE CRIMES ARE VERY TRAUMATIC 
EXPERIENCES. 
THEY ARE ACTS OF TERRORISM THAT 
ARE MEANT TO SOW FEAR IN THE 
GROUP. 
SOMEONE IS ATTACKED BECAUSE OF 
BIAS BASED ON THEIR IDENTITY. 
AND IT HAS THE EFFECT OF 
CREATING ANXIETY FOR ANYONE ELSE
WHO SHARES THOSE 
CHARACTERISTICS. 
AND SO IT'S NOT OFTEN THAT 
PEOPLE CAN MOVE BEYOND THAT 
ANXIETY AND DEVELOP A PLAN TO 
RETALIATE. 
IT DOESN'T HAPPEN IN THAT WAY AT
ALL. 
THE ANXIETY JUST CONTINUES TO 
INCREASE. 
WHAT WE HAVE TO DO, PEOPLE WHO 
ARE NOT TARGETED NEED TO STAND 
UP STRONGLY AGAINST THESE ACTS. 
THAT IS THE ONLY WAY TO END THIS
AND TO NOT ALLOW THIS BEHAVIOR 
TO BECOME NORMALIZED IN ANY WAY.
WE HAVE TO FIGHT THIS ON A 
NUMBER OF DIFFERENT FRONTS 
SIMULTANEOUSLY. 
ANTI-IMMIGRANT, ANTI-MUSLIM, 
ANTI-SEMITIC.
>> BEST OF LUCK WITH YOUR 
ENDEAVORS. 
>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR
HAVING ME.
>>> WHEN WE COME BACK 
CHALLENGING AMERICANS TO READ 
MORE STORIES ABOUT PEOPLE WHO 
DON'T LOOK LIKE THEM AND WHY 
THAT IS STILL PROVING TO BE 
DIFFICULT. 
>>> FINALLY FROM US THERE IS AN 
EFFORT TO GET AMERICANS TO READ 
MORE BOOKS FEATURING CHARACTERS 
OF COLOR OR WRITTEN 
BY AUTHORS OF COLOR.
THE READING WITHOUT WALLS 
CHALLENGE WAS ISSUED BY
GENE YANG, THE
NATIONAL AMBASSADOR FOR YOUNG 
PEOPLES LITERATURE AND WILL 
RUN THROUGHOUT THE MONTH OF 
APRIL. 
I SPOKE WITH MARK SIEGEL,
THE FOUNDER AND
EDITORIAL DIRECTOR AT FIRST 
SECOND BOOKS,
THE GRAPHIC NOVEL DIVISION OF 
MACMILLAN BOOKS. 
AND WRITER, JORGE AGUIRRE, THE
AUTHOR OF DRAGONS BEWARE AND
CHRONICLES OF CLAUDETTE ABOUT
THE CHALLENGE FACING THE 
INDUSTRY. BEFORE WE START 
THE CONVERSATION,
I WOULD LIKE TO TAKE IN THIS 
CLIP FROM GENE YANG WHO 
IS THE NATIONAL
AMBASSADOR FOR YOUNG PEOPLE'S 
LITERATURE WHO LAUNCHED READING 
WITHOUT WALLS PROGRAM. 
>> WITH THIS NEW PROGRAM I AM 
CHALLENGING READERS OF ALL AGES 
TO EXPAND READING HORIZONS BY 
PICKING UP DIFFERENT KINDS OF 
BOOKS AND READING ABOUT 
SOMETHING NEW. 
THE READING WITHOUT WALLS 
PROGRAM CHALLENGES READERS TO DO
ONE OF THE FOLLOWING. 
NUMBER ONE, READ A BOOK ABOUT A 
CHARACTER THAT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE
YOU OR LIVE LIKE YOU. 
OR NUMBER TWO, READ A BOOK ABOUT
A TOPIC THAT YOU MIGHT NOT KNOW 
ANYTHING ABOUT OR READ A BOOK IN
A FORMAT THAT YOU DON'T NORMALLY
READ FOR FUN. 
THIS CAN BE A CHAPTER BOOK,
A GRAPHIC NOVEL, A
BOOK OF POEMS OR AN AUDIO BOOK. 
>> LET'S TALK ABOUT WHY IS SUCH 
A CHALLENGE NECESSARY?
>> WELL, WE LIVE INSIDE OUR 
WALLS IN MANY CASES SELF-MADE 
WALLS OR INHERITED WALLS. 
AND WE TEND TO BECOME FAMILIAR 
WITH CERTAIN THINGS AND 
COMPLETELY BLIND TO OTHER 
THINGS. 
AND ONE OF THE GREAT ESCAPES 
FROM THAT LIMITATION IS 
LITERATURE IN EVERY KIND. 
GREAT MOVIES, GREAT MUSIC, ALL 
OF IT, OPENS UP OUR WORLD BEYOND
THESE WALLS. 
>> YOU KNOW THIS ISSUE OF 
DIVERSITY, IT IS KIND OF LIKE A 
BUZZWORD NOW IN MAINSTREAM AND 
SO FORTH. 
YOU AS A CREATOR,
IS THAT SOMETHING IN THE 
FOREFRONT OF YOUR MIND WHEN YOU 
ARE STARTING TO CREATE A COMIC 
OR GRAPHIC NOVEL?
>> I WOULD SAY THE KIND OF 
STORIES WE LIKE TO TELL ARE THE 
ONES THAT FEEL FAMILIAR TO ME 
AND I THINK MAYBE BECAUSE I GREW
UP, I'M A LATINO FROM THE 
MIDWEST I THINK THAT INFORMED 
HOW I APPROACHED STORIES. 
SO DIVERSITY IS AT THE FOREFRONT
ALONG WITH OTHER THINGS THAT I 
AM ALSO CONCERNED WITH WHEN I 
TRY TO TELL A STORY. 
GRAPHIC NOVELS, MY PARTNER IS 
A PUERTO RICO IN OHIO. 
OUR STORY TAKES PLACE IN THE 
FRENCH VILLAGE. 
WE TRY TO INFUSE THE VILLAGE 
WITH DIVERSE SET OF CHARACTERS 
THAT DON'T LIKE OR ACT LIKE 
TYPICAL TYPE OF CHARACTERS. 
>> FOR YOU, TOO, MARK, WITH WHAT
YOU DO, DO YOU LOOK FOR STORIES 
AND CREATORS WHO ARE FROM 
DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE WORLD OR 
WHOSE ORGINS TAKE THEM FROM
DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE WORLD.
>> I THINK IT IS A MINDSET THAT 
YOU DEVELOP AND GROW INTO. 
AND I DO TO A CERTAIN POINT BUT 
I ALSO RESPOND TO WHAT REALLY 
GRABS ME AND WE DO IT. 
FOR A SECOND IT LOOKS VERY 
DIVERSE. 
WE PUBLISH PEOPLE FROM DIFFERENT
BACK GROUNDS. 
WE HAVE MUSLIMS AND OTHERS I 
DON'T KNOW ABOUT. 
AND IT LOOKS DIVERSE BUT THAT 
WAS NOT THE POINT IN THE FIRST 
PLACE. 
IT REALLY WAS GOING AFTER 
QUALITY, GOING AFTER GREAT 
VOICES, GREAT TALENTS AND IT 
LOOKS LIKE OUR WORLD LOOKS. 
IT'S LIKE THIS INCREDIBLE 
PATCHWORK ASSORTMENT OF 
DIFFERENT HUMAN EXPERIENCES. 
SO I THINK YOU CAN BE OPEN TO 
THAT OR NOT OPEN TO THAT. 
AND IN SOME CASES WE DON'T SEE 
OUR OWN LIMITATIONS AND SO LIFE 
THROWS CHALLENGES AT US. 
I THINK IF YOU LIKE BEING IN NEW
YORK CITY IT'S LIKE THE TUMBLER.
YOU GOING TO MIX WITH HUMANITY 
AND WHATEVER YOUR OWN NARROWNESS
THAT YOU GREW UP WITH POSSIBLY 
IS GOING TO BE CHALLENGED. 
>> DO YOU FEEL CHALLENGED TO 
KIND OF BRING ASPECTS OF YOUR 
CULTURE WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF 
YOUR WORK?
>> I DO KIDS ANIMATION AND I TRY
TO DO THAT, AS WELL. 
ALSO, I AM HOPING TO WRITE 
SOMETHING A LITTLE BIT MORE FROM
MY COLUMBIAN AMERICAN MIDWESTERN
PERSPECTIVE WHICH I DON'T THINK 
IS A TALE THAT GETS TOLD A LOT. 
THERE ARE NOT A LOT OF US. 
I AM ALWAYS EXPLORING THAT. 
IT'S NOT OUT THERE YET BUT I'M 
HOPING TO. 
>> THIS NOTION OF GRAPHIC NOVELS
BECOMING MORE LEGITIMATE MEDIUM 
IN THE MAINSTREAM. 
ONE OF THE LEADERS IN COMICS, 
MARVEL COMICS, MARVEL'S VICE 
PRESIDENT OF SALES DAVID
GABRIEL RECENTLY SAID
THAT HE WAS TOLD BY COMIC BOOK 
RETAILERS THAT THEY WERE NOT 
LOOKING FOR DIVERSITY, THAT THE 
CHARACTERS, LOOKING FOR PEOPLE 
OF COLOR AND SO FORTH. CAUSED 
A BIT OF A FIRE STORM WITHIN THE
NERD CULTURE AS REGARDS TO
THOSE STATEMENTS MADE.
IS IT REALLY NO DIVERSITY OR IS
IT A MATTER OF BAD WRITING?
>> TO ME THAT IS ACTUALLY THE 
MORE IMPORTANT QUESTION IS THE 
ONE YOU JUST ASKED WHICH IS THE 
QUALITY OF THE STUFF. 
AND JUST LIKE YOU CAN, YOU CAN 
MAKE AN EFFORT TO GO LIKE THERE 
HAVE BEEN VERY MISGUIDED EFFORTS
TOWARDS DIVERSITY WHERE THERE IS
POLITICALLY CORRECT THING OF 
LET'S MAKE SURE THAT THE
SITCOM HAS THE TOKEN
GAY CHARACTER AND TOKEN
BLACK AND THE-
THAT'S NOT REAL DIVERSITY. 
THAT IS JUST KIND OF PANDERING 
AND WITHOUT TAKING TOO MUCH OF A
RISK. 
BUT IF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT 
GREAT STORY TELLING, THAT KIND 
OF MOVES THE WHOLE CONVERSATION 
BEYOND. 
AND BECAUSE IT ALSO SPEAKS TO IS
IT GETTING TO THE TRUTH OF A 
CHARACTER?
IS IT GETTING EMOTIONALLY 
RESONANT IN A WAY THAT REFLECTS 
THE HUMAN RACE, THAT REFLECTS 
THE HUMAN EXPERIENCE AS IT IS 
TODAY. 
AND WHEN YOU START MOVING INTO 
THAT CONVERSATION IT IS BEYOND 
BIAS. 
IT IS BEYOND THAT. 
IT DOESN'T LIVE IN THE SQUABBLES
THAT DIVIDE US AS PEOPLE. 
>> JUST WE ARE RUNNING OUT OF 
TIME BEFORE WE GO. 
DO YOU FEEL THAT BEING OUT THERE
AS A CREATIVE COLOR THAT YOU
FEEL LIKE YOUR WORK IS BEING
SEARCHED OUT MORE?
DO YOU THINK THERE ARE 
OPPORTUNITIES TO BE OPENED UP IN
LIGHT OF CONVERSATIONS ABOUT 
DIVERSITY? DIVERSE AUTHORS AND 
CREATORS WRITING STORIES ABOUT
DIVERSE CHARACTERS.
>> I HOPE SO. 
I DON'T KNOW. 
I WOULD HOPE THAT THAT WOULD BE 
THE CASE. 
BUT ALSO TO ME I THINK IT IS 
ALSO ABOUT BEING ABLE TO HAVE A 
SPOT WHERE I CAN TELL MY STORY. 
SO WE WERE TALKING ABOUT TO 
MARK'S CREDIT HE HAS OPENED UP 
THIS LIBRARY AT FIRST SECOND
BOOKS TOWARD A REALLY
DIVERSE GROUP OF CREATORS. 
THERE IS GENE, RAFAEL AND I. 
I THINK TO THE CREDIT OF THE 
IMPRINT AND MARK AND THE GROUP 
THEY PUT THEIR MONEY WHERE THEIR
MOUTH IS. 
THEY WANT DIVERSE CREATORS AND 
ARE BRINGING LOTS OF THEM IN. 
>> JORGE AND MARK, THANK YOU FOR
BEING IN STUDIO. 
THERE IS SO MUCH MORE THAT I 
AS A COMIC BOOK NERD
WOULD LIKE TO TALK ABOUT BUT WE 
ARE OUT OF TIME. 
>> WE'LL DO A DIRECTOR'S CUT. 
>> ABSOLUTELY, DIRECTOR'S CUT.
THANK YOU BOTH FOR BEING IN 
STUDIO. 
>>> THAT'S OUR SHOW THIS WEEK. 
THANKS FOR STAYING TUNED. 
UNTIL NEXT TIME BE INDEPENDENT 
MINDED. 
♪ [THEME MUSIC] ♪
