JUDY WOODRUFF: Now we turn to the analysis
of Shields and Brooks. That's syndicated columnist
Mark Shields and New York Times columnist
David Brooks.
Hello to both of you.
And let's talk about the young voices we have
been hearing.
David, Generation Z, the youngest generation,
we have just heard them say, in effect, we
don't -- in effect, we're not going to take
this anymore. We -- things have to change.
Can they make a difference with our help or
without it?
DAVID BROOKS: We have to realize how different
their mind-set is than those of us in older
generations.
If you ask people my age or people in the
Boomer generation or in the Silent Generation,
are most -- are people around you trustworthy,
a majority of people in my age group say yes.
If you ask Gen Z, are most people trustworthy,
65 percent say no. If you ask them, are most
people selfish and out for themselves, 73
percent say yes.
And why is that? Because they have been raised
in a society that they feel has been untrustworthy.
They have had -- they have seen the financial
crisis. They have seen the Trump. They have
seen continued racism, climate change.
And so their sense of alienation and disillusion
with society at large is what we just heard.
And so it's a much more radicalized and much
more activist generation. And so they're seeing
the world very differently than generations
above.
And we see that in every workplace. And so
they certainly have the motivation to do a
lot. One thing I think I worry about is a
real dislike of hierarchy, of organization,
of authority.
And if -- I don't think, unless -- you can
do permanent and institutional change unless
you're willing to build institutions with
leaders and hierarchy and authority structures
that will last for year after year. And that's
something that's so far been missing from
most of the modern social movements.
JUDY WOODRUFF: Mark, do you hear messages,
voices coming from this younger generation
that you think can end up making a difference
in the future?
MARK SHIELDS: I sure do, Judy.
As a member, hard as it might be to believe,
of the Silent Generation, the generation that
wore T-shirts that were white...
(LAUGHTER)
MARK SHIELDS: ... as (AUDIO GAP) message on
them, I stand in awe of their intensity, of
their passion, of their sense of urgency and
their sense of justice.
While not disagreeing with David's point,
it just -- I think, to hear that sense of
impatience for justice is, frankly, encouraging
and even inspiring.
JUDY WOODRUFF: And, David, when you combine
them with all the other voices we have been
hearing in recent weeks, whether having to
do directly with what happened to George Floyd,
whether it's about police reform, is the political
ground shifting?
Do you sense that things are actually going
to change around police reform, around, you
know, policies that people are saying we have
had enough of?
DAVID BROOKS: Well, there's certainly been
a shift in attitudes.
This has been a remarkable week in shifts
of attitudes. If you ask people, do you support
the Black Lives Matter, most people said no.
And now, by 29 percentage points, they say
yes.
If you ask people, what do you fear more,
police violence or the violence of the rioting
and looting, they say, I fear police violence
more by 2-1. If you ask people, are black
people treated unfairly and abused unfairly
by the police, after Eric Garner was killed
in 2014, only 33 percent said that. Now 58
percent say that.
So, we're seeing dramatic shifts in public
opinion as regard to the African-American
experience. And that has been one of the positive
developments. I think the second positive
development is just the peaceful protests.
The protests have gone more peaceful as they
have gone along, and the protesters have done
a better job of quelling violence than the
police.
JUDY WOODRUFF: And so, Mark, when they talk
about defund the police or abolish the police,
are these things that could actually happen?
We see Democrats coming forward with all sorts
of reform proposals, Republicans holding back.
We think we're going to hear more from Republicans
in Congress next week. What do you see as
the real pressures that could lead to change?
MARK SHIELDS: Well, I don't minimize in any
way, Judy, the importance of nomenclature
and naming in any political debate.
It is no accident that much of the resistance
to the Affordable Care Act was centered around
the term death panels, if you recall, that
somehow people were going to be sent off to
meet their maker by some unnamed anonymous
medical group who would meet and decide their
fate. Totally unfair, inaccurate, but it's
got a lot of traction.
And how you speak -- and that's why I say,
defunding the police, does it mean disbanding
the police? Does it mean, in fact, transferring
the obligations that police carry today, who
are -- really do carry enormous, awesome responsibilities
of dealing with people who are homeless, people
who are on opioids, people with addiction
problems with alcohol and drugs.
They really do have enormous responsibility.
But if it becomes -- and I am rather cheered
that the Democrats have not gone for the bait
in any way. And I think, quite honestly, it's
been a miscalculation the part of the White
House on this issue, that, somehow, Donald
Trump could roll back to reelection on a law
and order basis.
But I don't in any way minimize that this
is a very explosive situation still.
JUDY WOODRUFF: So -- and David, in terms of
what really could change, I mean, we're seeing
a willingness to accept, for example, bringing
down Confederate monuments, changing the names
of military bases, except for the president,
who said he doesn't want to see this happen.
But is it your sense that people are willing
-- you mentioned the polls, but does that
-- is that going to lead to legislative change,
policy change that will be seen in the African-American
community as something that's meaningful?
DAVID BROOKS: Well, if you use the phrase
defund the police, you're not asking for change.
That's -- to me, it's just a terrible slogan.
It's counterproductive because it makes everybody
think, I'm going to have no police. That is
not what the American people want.
After Ferguson, they asked African-Americans
worldwide, Gallup did, do you want a greater
police presence in your neighborhood or less?
And right after Ferguson, they want greater
police presence. And that's consistent with
poll after poll after poll. People want a
greater police presence, because more police
leads to less crime, which leads to less contact,
which leads to less violent encounters, which
leads to less incarceration.
People generally like the police, but they
want it done differently. And I do think there's
a possibility to get real changes in that.
It's interesting how much even small reforms
can make. The communities that have banned
the choke holds and strangleholds have seen
dramatic declines in these kinds of abusive
things.
Even a city that said that, when there's a
chase, the cop running after the person is
not going to be the first one to touch the
suspect, somebody else is going to touch the
suspect, that alone sharply reduces the number
of violent encounters.
And so these sort of things can be done reasonably
easily. The harder thing on the police front
is changing the corporate culture. We have
somehow gotten the world where the police
are basically like the military. They go to
boot camp like the military. They dress more
like the military.
They have sort of a warrior ethos in some
of the departments. And changing that corporate
culture can be done. It's been done in Camden
and Newark and other places, but it has to
be done in cities across the country.
JUDY WOODRUFF: And picking up, not just on
that, but on the point about a push to get
rid of Confederate symbols, Mark, do you see
that happening, where -- I mean, is it -- are
we now at a moment, a turning point, if you
will, where the things that people accepted
before are just not going to be accepted anymore?
MARK SHIELDS: I think we are, Judy.
And I think the resistance, strangely enough,
is centered right in the White House. I mean,
it's no accident that a Republican Senate
committee this week voted to move ahead on
the removal of the names -- of changing the
names of American military bases, which were
named, let it be noted, long after the Civil
War, but obviously an attempt, just like those
statues were, to reestablish the proper order
that existed before the Civil War.
And they were in Southern states. Whether
it's Rucker, Alabama, or Hood in Texas, they
were all named for the Confederate generals.
And I think what you have on the statues is
an ongoing discussion and movement, including
the secretary of defense, a Republican, and
the secretary of the Army, McCarthy, who is
a Republican.
And the stoutest resistance is not from the
Daughters of the Confederacy, but Donald Trump
in the White House, who said there will be
no changes. And I, quite frankly, think this
is a total miscalculation on the part of Donald
Trump, the president, and his reelection.
It is not 1968, when Richard Nixon could run
to -- and run successfully on law and order.
Richard Nixon was the insurgent. He was the
challenger in 1968. The Democrats had been
in power for eight years. There were 110 American
cities that had gone up in flames; 16,000
Americans had died in Vietnam that year, and
590,000 Americans were there in an unpopular
war.
I mean, the law and order campaign had a traction
and a believability, which it does not now.
And I think, quite frankly, there's a serious
mistake that we in the press make, and I have
made it myself. When someone wins an election,
he or she is a genius. And someone loses,
they're obviously a dunce.
And we were willing to give Donald Trump all
sorts of credit by, he has this intuitive
connection with the American people, he knows
what's going on, that that's how we won in
2016, because we didn't see him winning.
And, quite frankly, he got 40, what, 5, 6
percent of the vote, and that's it. And, if
anything, he's getting a lot less now. And
I really think it's a miscalculation.
JUDY WOODRUFF: And, finally, David, the president's
decision to hold this big campaign rally in
Tulsa, Oklahoma, on June 19, the -- which
is the anniversary of the massacre of blacks
in that city, coupled with the convention,
half the convention in Jacksonville, Florida,
what do we make of this?
DAVID BROOKS: A couple of weeks ago, we talked
about Trump talking about Henry Ford, and
I gave Trump the benefit of the doubt, thinking
he didn't know -- he was ignorant of Henry
Ford's racist ideas.
Well, I was wrong about that. He had a full
familiarity. He -- when it comes to that kind
of thing, he has a Ph.D.
And so I assume Donald Trump knows what June
19 is. And I assume that, in the gigantic
advance team that it takes to put a convention
together, there's somebody who knows what
June 19 was. And somebody knows what Tulsa
means.
And so I have to think that -- and even if
they didn't know, they know now, and they
could make a change. And so this is just putting
a thumb in the eye of basic decency, as far
as I'm concerned.
And you just show respect to your neighbors.
How much of this is not -- it's clear. If
your neighbor doesn't like a Confederate Flag
that used to represent slavery, then take
it down. If your neighbor doesn't like you
hosting a thing on June 19, don't do it. It's
just basic citizenship.
JUDY WOODRUFF: The end of quite a week in
American life, in American history.
David Brooks, Mark Shields, thank you both.
