Student: The first state to legalize
abortion in cases of rape or
incest was Colorado in 1967.
Hawaii followed in 1970.
We can reasonably assume that
there were abortions before then,
so if we went back to a world where
abortion was illegal, how would we
deal with the black market? What
do you think the positive or negative
consequences would be of an
increased amount of illegal abortions?
Would we prosecute both the
mother and the doctor or just
one? How would we handle it?
Shapiro: First of all, I see that you're
a liberal, so I appreciate
you coming tonight. Really, it's good
of you to come and have a discussion.
[Audience applause]
Student: You're a very
eloquent speaker.
Shapiro: That's very nice of you.
The answer to the question is that
there's no major pro-life voice in
America who advocates for
prosecuting the mother. The reason
that people don't advocate for
prosecuting the mother is, number one,
because it is counterproductive
because your goal is to convince
women that they shouldn't abort
their babies, not to threaten them with
punishment. You want them to make
the moral choice. Basically, honey is
going to win people over more than
vinegar. Beyond that, I think that
there is a real problem of mens rea,
meaning that when you're talking
about intent to commit a crime,
you actually have to have an intent
to commit the crime. If I'm going to
commit homicide upon you, then
I have to know that you are
a human being, for example. I think
that a lot of women have been made
to believe, for wrong reasons, that
what they are killing is not actually
a human being, and so they lack
the requesent mens rea for
a homicide charge, even if you
were to try to game it out, legally.
Mostly, what people on the pro-life
side have talked about is prosecuting
abortion doctors who make an actual
business out of aborting babies.
As to the increase in illegal abortions,
I would assume there would be
an increase in illegal abortions because
all abortions would be illegal.
Just logically speaking, any
time you make something illegal
that occurs, there will be more illegal
instances of that thing happening.
I'm sure that when slavery was legal,
then it was legal. That didn't make it
either moral, decent, or right. Once it
was made illegal, then I'm sure that
everyone who was holding a slave
was in violation of the law.
There were more illegal
holdings of slaves after we made
slavery illegal, but there was less
absolute slavery, which is
the actual goal.
Yeah, you can ask
a follow-up, that's fine.
Student: Illegally holding a slave
doesn't kill the slave and doesn't
possibly kill the mother.
Shapiro: I don't think you want to
go down the road where you're
justifying slavery.
[Audience laughter]
Student: I'm not justifying slavery.
I'm saying that the fact that something
increases when you make it illegal is...
Shapiro: The absolute level of the
activity decreases, but what's left
is going to be illegal,
just by logical necessity.
Student: When the illegal activity that's
left is very, very dangerous,
is that a good argument? Do you
think that's a good argument or
not a good argument?
Shapiro: Let's say that you make abortion
illegal, and there are 1,000,000
abortions a year in the United States.
And let's say, at the high end, there are
still 50,000 illegal abortions in
the United States, but all the rest
go to term. Let's say that's the case
because it's going to be hard to
actually get an abortion if it's
made illegal. Let's say there are still
50,000. You just saved 950,000
lives. That is a massive
net win, obviously.
