Hi everyone!
Today we are doing things differently
Today I will be talking with my friend Masha via Zoom instead of Instagram
But the rest will be the same
Soon Masha will join the conversation and I'm going to ask her all questions that I've prepared
Masha: We are now recording!
We already spoke a bit with Masha
And discussed all news of our quarantine life
And we can start with my first question
Hi Masha!
Hi Polina!
I'm very happy to hear you
Me too!
The first thing I wanter to talk about is
You were always different compare to the other models
[ *I used to be Masha's model agent ]
Because I was older?
I wanter to say that the reason might be your age
but didn't want to sound bad because of that phrase
But you were behaving differently
because all girls I used to represent were new faces, meaning they were kinds
sometimes teenagers and only few girl were older 18
so just because of that they you spoke seemed different
but the main thing that was different is your endless positivity and effulgence
and the happiness inside you
It's true! When you used to come to the office
I was always looking forward to that moment
And I was always like: Oh my god, she is going to be at the office soon! How great is that!
Because whenever you visited you would bring that light with you
And I remember you even brought flowers ones!
And I was like: Oh my god, no model does stuff like that!
I mean I never did!
But you would just come and be like: Hey guys and here some flowers for you
And from the very first moment...
What I am trying to say is that sometimes you can't connect with another person
And you just work together
And there is nothing bad about that
I feel this normal at every model agency
But with you it was always easy and nice
And we actually became friends after we both stopped working at that model agency
Masha: Yes!
So we became friends after that
And we started to go to yoga classes together
And then you gave me as a gift a black see-through shirt from your own brand
Which I'm still wearing and really adore!
Oh, I'm so happy! Thank you
And from that moment our friendship began and only grew and evolved
And you were even invited to my wedding celebration
So, you are basically a part of my family
Masha: Thank you!
So my point is
Do you think those qualities were with you from the very beginning
or you worked and cultivated them?
and is it possible to cultivated those kinda qualities?
or maybe you have changed with the time?
what quality exactly? thinking ahead? cunning?
no, of course i'm joking
although there maybe a part of me which actually things ahead about communication
because you want to become friends and I fell that's normal
but I feel I wasn't like that from the very beginning
when I started as a model
I used to fell that entitlement whenever I was with a photographer or a team
That I have to get something from them
So it's like you always come for something and you have to get it
But it's different now
I'm trying to remember why and when
Maybe because I became a photographer myself
I think when I stated to work with you I also became a photographer
The initial ideas was that photography is being a photographer
But this days it's more interesting for me is to photograph myself than other people
I don't know why
But it is what it is
And I started to build myself from a model perspective
I feel that it all comes from experience
100% it all comes from experience
of course at the begging I didn't know much about communication with other people
to be honest, it was complicated at first and even scary
because you're young, but this job (modelling) where nothing is certain and clear
for example, if you come to work at the office as an accountant you have clearly formulated rules
But here (in modelling) nothing is clear
and the brain get scared a bit
at least, that's my feelings
How old I was? 22?
When you came to the agency?
Yes, 22, I think
22 or 23
I don't remember exactly
And I first started es a model when I was 19
so it's 100% comes from experience
and if we talk about being friendly
that shine through because you were also nice to me
because there were times
when I'm at the studio with the team
and no one would see or appreciate my positivity
people would just be shut, sad and quiet
if I'm talking about Russia
and coming back to that flower situation
that was just a way of showing my friendliness
a way of getting though working barriers
if you know what I mean
I wanted to make something nice and also wanted people to remember me
and I thing there is nothing bad about that
my opinion is that you should be afraid to show yourself so people will remember you in the future
even though some might think that this all planned and ain't real
and maybe a part of this is true
but its cool to make other people feel nice anyways
however, I was always scared to come to the office
because all the men were sitting there
and I was the only female to work at the office
Yes!
Masha: You were the only one who was positive
and whenever others looked at me
I felt that they see all my imperfections
all imperfections of my skin and my body
I think that for a woman such a reaction from men is psychologically difficult
Yes, I agree, it's actually hard and sometimes scary (to be in a situation like that)
Because you get used to the fact that
as a model whenever you enter the room
all man look at you and appreciate your beauty and not trying to find any imperfections is your look
But whenever you come to the office of a model agency
You feel how people start to scan your appearance
And there are like: here's one pimple, here she's gained one sentiment in her waist and two in her hips
we have to weigh her and check her measurements
and even now! when I was in Spain
was it the same?
Yes! (Even thought I was in a good shape), they would still check my appearance first, whenever I would come to the office
They always smile, but I see how they scan me from the top to my toes
Masha: I think they only count their money at that moment
it is all just a business now
and I feel we lost something on the way
I'm really interested to ask my friend with whom I'm going to talk next week
She started her modelling career in 2003
so, long time ago
and she stopped working only in 2017-18
and I want to ask her if it was any different back them
because I feel its deferent these days
now, you came to the office, and if you suit certain criteria then great, if not - next
I don't feel that it helps anybody. Neither good for models or agencies
Why do you think it is like that these days?
I think, firstly because these days there are way to many models
I mean, 20 years ago, there were a lot less of them
because there were no social media
and model scouts would travel to small cities
come to local model agencies
in order to find that one potential model
they would event search for girls on grocery markets or restaurant
like in the movies?
yes, yes, like in the movies
back in the days it was almost a sport
it was a real challenge
and today, you open your phone, you check instagram and you start to chose
also many countries are now open
before most of them were very private
because of geography or politics and zero connections with the real world
now, most of them are open and many girls now dream of becoming a model
and also now its everyones dream of becoming an influencer
or a famous person
that's why everyone puts themselves out there
and if before there was a girl but she was shy or insecure
she wasn't a star from the beginning
now those kinda girls don't even have a chance
because they take way to much time to develop and grow
most agencies would just concentrate on those who have more of those star qualities from the very beginning
and I feel because of that a lot have been lost
there is no more of that deep connection between agency and a model
models come and go
agents come and go
and no one cares that much anymore
everyone is just counting money now
But let's come back to you and your beautiful qualities
It all comes from experience
Absolutely invaluable experience
I think you should really focus on it
And don't think that you're trying to fool somebody
No and it's actually great and it comes from respect to others
and many other positive words and sensations
it all comes down to just positive communication
and respect for work of others
respect of the photographers work
and it can be difficult sometimes
because models leaves the studio space
yes she worked hard for those 10, 12 or 4 hours
but if we talk about communication with clients
it's all on the shoulders of photographer, if he is in charge
so its all work that was done
and every person did something for the shoot
and you have to remember that there is also a human factor
meaning everyone can have their own problems
it always helps to remember that
so, at some point you just start to get people and understand them better
and then you just try to be a decent human being
I love people who are just nice
and love people who are positive
I feel comfortable around them
and I want to be surrounded by those kinda people at work too
because that's a part of my life too
that's a moment you live through
and you want to feel good in those moments as well
Polina: Sounds great!
Lets move on to the next question of mine
And this topic unites us in some way
My image and your image
they both are built on sexuality
sometimes
it all goes well and on shoots this sexuality presented as
femininity or tenderness
and the team is really trying to show your beauty
but sometimes
photographers love to overdo it
and it easily being presented as
vulgarity or even being dirty
and it really hard to balance sometimes
at the same time we deal with the stereotype
that if a girl likes to do lingerie or nude photoshoots
then she can't be taken seriously
and for example, when I became a model agent
my Instagram was
well it still is...
no actually now its far from what it was before
so before I was totally fine with posting pictures of me naked by covered with my hands
or I posted pictures of me in lingerie or swimwear
partly because my commercial sexy look was build on those kinda photos
and because of that I was confirmed for commercial jobs
for lingerie or swimwear clients
but when I became a model agent
I was told to delete those kinda pictures from my Instagram
because from that moment my account could be checked by potential client or potential models and their parents
no one (at the agency)  wanted me to look sexy because of this
so I was asked to delete all of those pictures
and I remember that moment of me cleaning my instagram
and I completely understood why
however with every removed picture I felt
how a bit part of my identity fades away
and then, when I quit that job
and slowly brought those pictures back to my Instagram
I felt myself again
and when I used to be your agent
we did the same
and tried to transform this too sexy identity
and we organised test shoots in regular clothes
we tried to focus on your cute and commercial look
and when you left
you also came back to that sexy look
oh yeah! I remember you even asked me to delete some pictures
from the back where I was only wearing a thong
Yes! But I always questioned every situation
and I was like
should I text her and ask to delete that pictures? or should I not?
but everyone who worked at the office had this program
where we could see what every model have posted
so we could repost or comment on the pictures
so everyone had it
so if in the morning someone would open this program
and see you on the pictures where you only wear a thong
someone would definitely ask me to talk to you about that
my question is
did you feel back then
that something was missing?
in your identity
and how did you feel back then?
and how do you feel now?
and was sexuality and sensuality always a part of you identity?
or maybe it evolved and changed with the time?
First, I would like to comment that situation
when you were asked to remove those pictures from your Instagram account
I feel this happened
Because parents of underaged models
could check your profile
and some of them can be very protective
and they might think
that modelling is not modelling but escort or prostitution
yeah, that's a common misconception in Russia
Listen, I was kinda shocked back then
Because I sent all of my pictures
and you didn't chose much from them
and the ones that were chosen
were far from sexy
and overall I was surprised
and felt like
felt squeezed
I just couldn't get it
and thought that the agency makes a bug mistake
because
there is no point of trying
to make other person be what he never can become
meaning
if you can see
that I had that passion in the eyes
this is just the way my identity was created
mentally and physically
so there should've been a focus on that
at least that's my personal opinion
I couldn't get it
maybe it was hard for the agency to
have such a sexy girl on board
although
there are always many lingerie and swimwear shoots
I couldn't get it
I thought it was a big lose
When they tried to make a different person out of me
And it didn't work
I couldn't feel the way they wanted
Couldn't understand what I had to do
And I had this character
I just couldn't remove myself from that
Meaning: I'm probably far from being an actress
Actors are the one who can easily be changed
be every time different
but I had this strong character inside
so I can only do something and create
only if it comes from the inside
not the other way around
I honestly was so surprised
I didn't know what to do
I used to come to those test shoots
I didn't know how to act
I thought that even if I just seat or stand normally
I would still be sexy in some way
In someone else's mind
and someone would still say that I'm sexy  or playful
meaning
everyone can interpret those pictures differently
so
I was trying to understand why
Was it your idea or you all decided like that?
what was the point
of signing me if I already had those kinda pictures in my portfolio
like pictures in see-through clothes and so on
or pictures that were build on my sexy look
No, we didn't want to erase that completely
we still kept some of your sexy pictures in portfolio
but they were less less sexy that in your first portfolio
like 50% less
compare to your portfolio or your Instagram
I think
I feel that the main mistake was
I mean we only now talking about that
it's been two years
Masha: Yes, yes, I know
so that was obviously a miscommunication
because you clearly didn't understood why we went in that direction
and why we decided to change your look a bit
we didn't want to erase your sexuality
but we wanted to toned it down
because many traditional model agencies
for example agencies in China
that could be a potential placement for you
because besides your sexy look
you also have that cute smiley part of you
and thats the one we wanted to focus on
and even in the beginning (of this conversation) I said
that you have this genuine friendliness
and it could go so well with that commercial that side of you
so, we just wanted to focus on other things
so there would be more commercial clients
and maybe more of e-com clients
of course we kept lingerie and swimwear
same as they always stay in my portfolio
but we hoped that clients would see more sides of you
and not only as a model for sexy lingerie or nude shoots
because the sexy part every photographer sees without any troubles
so we wanted to show more of your commercial side
Masha that can also work with those kinda clients and agencies
and it worked!
there were options from agencies in Italy
and they really liked that commercial side of you
but the was another problem
because they couldn't confirm you because of height
although I always disagree with them on this point
I think these days we should less concentrate on such things as height
we should be more flexible about such things
Masha: I feel it gets better now
yes, it gets better with time
even compare to what was happening two years ago
I feel there are less boundaries now
You know what?
Now when I heard all this, I understand
When I heard all you said
I got it
but looking back, I remember how hard it was
Now I actually want to apologise
because I feel it was my mistake
that we had this miscommunication
Masha: But I also didn't say anything
because I felt paralysed
I just unconditionally believed that you would make all these choices for me
yeah, its a double lesson
for models and for model agents
I always say that
there are always should be a clear vision and a plan
so both parties know why everything is going a certain way
and as you correctly said
you shouldn't try to completely change another person
and if there something sexy and famine in the look
you shouldn't try to erase that
and of course
if a model has any doubts or worries
its better to be communicated at the very beginning
event if you for some reason scared
but you shouldn't be scared
because you have to always remember
that models hire their mother agents
and not the other way around
model actually dictates
although dictates is a bad word to use
I would say she communicates what she wants to achieve
because she hires model agency to represent her interests
but in Russia
there are girls who start their careers way too early
like when they are 13 or 14 like I was for example
they don't understand the actual process
of who hires who
and because of that they scared when they communicate with their agencies
but don't care much when they communicate with clients
look, I used to think
that I have to have an agency
and the fact that I wasn't  represented by any agency
I am as a model incomplete
So I thought I should find an agency
and after I must go to another county to work as a model
and if I do all of that thenI am successful as a model
at least in my head I would be cool
and if I didn't have a mother agency that would be a problem
that would mean that I am different and not in a good way
like not enough as a model
but what I didn't know
is that I form and belong to a completely different group of people
I just didn't know that
meaning: all my work
all my trips
they way I feel and present myself
all my work for Instagram
although there wasn't much
but it was still something and it was mine
and I just gave that all up
and got signed with that agency
said no to my own projects
that used to bring me some money
and I didn't even think twice
even thought I didn't know much and  no one promised me anything
like how I am actually going to earn a living
and in my life
no one gives me money
not my mom or dad or husband
what I am trying to say is that its an important question for me
but I was so obsessed with that idea of being signed with that agency
that it will bring me something
and because of that
I was so scared to lose this opportunity
so I agreed to give up everything
and of course it didn't tern up well
of course I would still do some black jobs
because I had to earn a living
so eventually it didn't make any sense
because I was already my own person
I already had a small personal brand
and I shouldn't have erase that
just because I thought its important to be represented by a model agency
but you know, I saw those successful models
that were represented by that agency
and I thought
Wow! I am going to be one of them
and I am going to become better because of that
and I got all this even though I kept being myself
and it didn't work out
I was surprised at how much you need to meet certain standards
and that trip to China made it all clear
I knew from the first that it wasn't for me
but I was so grateful for this trip to Shanghai
I had such a nice apartment to live in
and a great flight
and I was hanging out with girls who are like 16
who were like 8 years younger than me
How old I was back then?
How old are you going to turn now?
26 yo
yeah, then you were 24 back then
so 24 and they were 8 years younger than me
and at some moments I was like
wow! what's going on?
but it was so much fun!
it was such a great experience
although I didn't work
clients didn't not chose me at castings
but for some reason
everyone at the agency kept being nice with me
I honestly don't know why
because they used to complain about other models
but I didn't gain weight
and didn't lose it
just was myself
I remember in the evenings  I used to drink beer outside
and I still got paid
Polina: yeah
and I left and thought
that I am the coolest
Polina: Yeah, that did turn out well eventually
Yeah, it really did!
What I wanted to say
My mistake was
that I relied on that agency way too much
and completely forgot about myself
I didn't thought this through
I just got obsessed with that idea
and still don't know why I did that
I then realised that I don't need that at all
I am just a different kinda model
the one that is building her own career
and I had another important insight
when I was photographic another models
I realised that I was never a model in a first place
I saw how other girls act in front of the camera
how they actually enjoy that process
how they lived though that moment
and I never was like that
But how you do that then?
I don't know...
I just do that and thats all
But I never put that much soul into modelling
but now when I work I do it full on
and can dedicate my time and poser into it
Back then I was really obsessed with that idea of a perfect model
My brain couldn't process the fact that I am not capable of achieving that
And I couldn't leave because I was scared to be a failure in my own eyes
Yeah, I know what you mean
Do you feel better now?
Yes, of course!
Now it feels right
I think I am an artist
I sure am!
I'm now trying to figure out my niche
But you know what, its all experience
I made some mistakes
But maybe it wasn't a mistake?
Maybe those mistakes brought me where I should be now
Polina: Yeah
I just should accept it as a part of my experience
Maybe you needed to have that model experience
and live through that model contract in China
to get a true understanding of what you actually need in your life professionally and personal
I don't want to talk about your age
however when you age
you get a better understanding of yourself
Yes, yes
And communicate differently with other people and agencies
and with photographers and clients
maybe, at some point of their career
models, creators and influencers
you can call as you want
any creative person
maybe he doesn't need that agency to represent their interests
maybe its better for them to build a career on their own terms and rules
I think you have a very interesting story
and right now you building something by yourself
you making your own career decisions
You know in order to understand how important it was
I have to give that up
It happened to me before
and it had back then
It was just an obsession about that life and that agency
it is hard when you try something new
and you become a part of that group of people
and then to accept that it isn't for you
yeah
it just didn't work out for me
but you know what?
maybe I didn't give my best back then?
compare to the others for example
it can also be the case
I don't want to call them bad just because it didn't work out with me
As I see it
model agencies work
and we already discussed that
they are far from personal management
when a girl comes
she needs to be a certain way already
because there is a very clear algorithm of what you can do as a model agent
when she gets confirmed
they signed her
then they do polaroids and test shootings
then she gets confirmed by clients
then she goes somewhere for her first contract
and then it all comes down to her potential
either she goes to Asia
either she tries herself during Fashion Week
or she might go to USA
but this algorithm has been forever
and if it doesn't work for some models (its easier to replace them)
for example in Russia
we have separate agencies for influencers
like the ones who are on Instagram or YouTube
so there are agencies for them
and there are model agencies
and at this point there aren't many who can work for both
although in the USA
the biggest model agencies
they represent both models and influencers
because if you think about it
client comes to the agency
because he wants to find a model or an influencer
who is going to work well on the shoot day
so eventually his product gets sold
of course there is more than that
they want to share their vision
and communicate something to their customers
but in the end of the day they want to earn money
and to sell what they manufactured
so agencies in the USA
they get this
and they know that influencers are a lot more valuable these days
if you compare them to some models
because influencers already have an audience
and clients willing to pay more for influencers
so USA agencies realised that pretty fast
but if we talk about Russia
model agencies aren't ready to collaborate with strong individuals
like influencers
its easier when a young new face comes
because model agencies can influence them while they young
they can build anything out of them
and again, agencies think that they are the one who hires model
they think that they can dictate their own vision and rules
and this model is going to listen
and whenever a strong experienced individual comes
who already has a vision and understanding of what a personal brand is
its a lot hard for agencies to communicate and influence
many agencies aren't ready for that
So to conclude
I think there were two problems
first, the agency didn't know what to offer you as an influencer
and second, you couldn't be a typical kinda model
so you couldn't go the typical model path
and of course, there was a miscommunication between you and the agency
I think its all for the best
For sure, for sure
because when you left
not only you continued to be a photographer
and started to work on your projects
but also you Instagram audience started to grew
so its all turned out for the best
Lets talk about photography a little more
We already discussed that you use to take pictures of other models
when you were in China
and after that
and that you like to take pictures of yourself
than other model
the question that I prepared for you is
Where do you see yourself in the future?
In front or behind the camera?
and how much did it help you
when you learned more about lightning
photography and work with other model
And does it help you now?
when you work as a model
I want to mention one more that
that the initial idea was that
I'm going to take pictures of others
I started when I was 15-16 yo
I used to have a blog
and somewhere in the countyside
I would take pictures of old stones
and also took pictures of myself
I used to really like it
but then I stopped
and latter on came back to that initial idea
And yes, of course it helps
first of all
you start to respect the work of photographer
you now know how hard it is
also, when you pose
like if you move way to fast and move to quickly
you know it doesn't work
of course it depends on the idea of the shoot
you just know more when you had that experience
I'm trying to find an example
its like if you cook food
but never actually try it
thats how much its important to try photograph
and of course you know more about the lighting
and also you will learn more about yourself
like I found out that I'm not actually a model
because when you take pictures of girl
who actually loves to do that
and she lives thought that
it's so so different
I'm now more focused in the moment
It has to be clear and organise
I know what kinda picture I want
I know what I want to do
and I work with that idea as the time passes
and make that idea better
so it kinda like that
I love photography
I really do
and love other people
But in the future
where do you see yourself
taking pictures of others
or yourself?
probably
the most realistic one
is that I'm taking pictures
of myself
maybe with the help of someone else
or maybe just by myself
and maybe some one is taking pictures of me
but its not a priority
although I don't want to exclude this possibility
because its important for me
to have many options in life
I work well and grow
only if I have like 4 different projects
going it at the same time
Like now, I have my art
I take pictures of myself
I take pictures of others
but now I do it rarely
because lately I put too much on myself
And I don't always have time for that
but I want to come back to that as well
I even bought a new lens
and to conclude
the most important
is that it gives you an understanding
of the work that other people do
I used to not have that
I would just come, work and thats all
and when I learned more
I was surprised
of how much love photographers
put into their work
so they agree for a test shoot
with the person they don't know at all
they spent their time and energy
and then they retouch those pictures
and then sent them to models
yeah, I was always surprised by that
because its so different for models
of course model does her best at the shoot
but still, you came for those
2-3 hours of shoot
did pretty much the same as you always do
and then just left
but photographers not only take pictures
then they look through them to choose the best ones
then retouch
and then send it to the agency
and the agency might complain and dislike those pictures
Do you recommend to other models
learn more about the process,
lighting
and the photography itself?
and maybe even try to take pictures of others?
so they can get a better understanding of what's going on on set
and maybe take the process and other people
more seriously
yes, of course
because if you want to succeed
then you have to be a superman
meaning
you have to understand what stylist does
what makeup artist does
and by learning you can build that communication with the team
and you will have your own opinion
and respect for the work of others
maybe put your own personality
into the shoot
It is also great
to help the team
and people will remember that
and maybe invite you to other commercial projects
but you have to be genially interested
because
you have to actually like and enjoy the process
like that much!
although I was never motivated
by money or potential jobs
I was never excited only because of that
but this is my case you know
You did that because you wanted to show yourself
and your creative side
Yes!
I wanted to be a part of that process
because modelling was never enough for me
And not long ago for example
I had a test shoot with Dima Mironov
I was the one to text him
I was the one to choose a stylist and a makeup artist
I created the mood board
also I brought some of my clothes
and we collaborated together
and I really loved the final pictures
the response was really great
and many texted to Dima as well
and after I felt complete
so you were the one in charge?
Masha: yes
So you see?
Models don't usually do that
They are usually told
to be at the studio on a certain day
and to take some jeans and shirts with her
and I think the final result is not winning from that
the big part is missing actually
when model is excluded from the process
again there is nothing personal about that approach
and because of that
model doesn't care that much
look,
as I think,
if a model represented by agencies
and she is doing that algorithm
maybe she has to be like that
from what I saw,
girls who are successful
they are like that
they come to the shoot
they look great
they aren't difficult
they do their work
and then they leave
for commercial work
its perfect
meaning
there is nothing bad about it
it is what it is
yeah, because it a working system already
and it does function well
but still,
I follow different models
who for example live and work in states
in New York or LA
or even in Europe
they found their niche
but still,
maybe when they started they were part of the system
but to actually succeed
and become more,
they had to put more of themselves into work
than to just come, work and leave
you have to give more of yourself
and if you never do that
and just continue to be average
at some point, it will all fade
it first works but then goes down hill
because you just didn't give enough
or you give just enough to stay average
thats why I think
if you want to get that success
you have to be interested
and you need to want to be a part of the process
when you collaborate with other people
in order
to be liked, accepted and hired by others
and over all
its more of a pleasant experience
than if you just come, shoot and leave
by participating you get a more of a memorable experience
lets move on to your projects
because when you left the agency
you created those extra opportunities for yourself
you first started a clothing brand
then a lingerie brand
then a podcast
and then your art books
with pictures of you
Masha: Yeah, where I am naked
then you did t-shits
I don't know if I mentioned everything
and thats besides modelling
and your personal brand on Instagram
