Welcome everyone. As we wait for
individuals to join us today we want to
know where you're listening in from so
let us know that in the chat I am Ann
Peters from the Pulitzer Center and I'd
like to welcome you to today's Talks @
Pulitzer with Pulitzer Center grantee
and playwright Sarah Shourd and Rhodessa
Jones, director of The Medea Project:
Theater for Incarcerated Women. This
session is part of our summer series
Focus on Justice and we believe it is
critical especially at this time in our
history to keep issues of justice at the
forefront of our reporting and our
conversations today we remember all
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Floyd, Breonna Taylor,
Ahmaud Aubrey and Rayshard Brooks. The
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And you can find more about about all of
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quick logistics before we move on and
before we start the conversation with
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know there will be time for Q&A so you
can even throughout the conversation
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One final logistic please once we
are done with today's program stay on a
few moments to fill in a brief survey
now I'd like to introduce our speakers
for today. Sarah Shourd is award-winning
journalist, artist, and former Stanford
John S. Knight Fellow based in Oakland,
California. For the last 10 years she has
worked to uncover the realities of mass
incarceration and solitary confinement
for audiences after spending a year as a
political hostage in Iran. She's the
author of two books, a graphic novel, and
a play. Her journalism has been published
in many outlets including the New York
Times and Mother Jones. Her play The Box
premiered in San Francisco in 2016 and
went on to be performed at the old
prison penitentiary on Alcatraz Island and I should say that this
webinar provides the backdrop to the
forthcoming Pulitzer Center supported
virtual performance of Sarah's play in
the coming weeks. Rhodessa Jones. As director
of The Medea Project: Theater for
Incarcerated Women, Rhodessa has centered
the experiences of incarcerated women in
storytelling and explored the role of
theatre in reducing recidivism rates
she has decades of experience creating
theatre inside prisons. In addition to
extensive workshops and productions in
the U.S., Rhodessa has led the Medea
project in South African prisons and was
recognized as an Arts envoy for the U.S.
Embassy in South Africa in 2012. And now
I'd like to turn the conversation over
to Sarah and Rhodessa. Thank you so much Ann.
Good morning everyone good afternoon
good evening wherever you're Zooming in
from. Rhodessa and I are Zooming in from
the San Francisco Bay Area. In the spirit
of collective liberation and love we
welcome you to this conversation about
incarcerated women, collective trauma,
racism, and healing that this country is
in the midst of, it has been in the midst
of for a very long time.
So welcome Rhodessa, it is an honor to have you
here. Thank you so much thank you
I so appreciate being being here thank
you. Absolutely. So Rhodessa you've been
working with incarcerated women for 23
years and I see the work that you do
we're both theater artists and we both
are in you know the business of telling
stories that need to be told that aren't
often told and I see the work that you
do as not a luxury. Some people
see art as as a luxury, as something you
know extra that for the bourgeoisie but I
don't see it as that at all but it's you
know what people are talking about more
and more as an "essential service." And I
see your work with incarcerated women as
violence prevention. Can you tell us how
your work gives women the tools
to save their own lives? First and
foremost my work is always, it's the kind
of artless life-affirming and it is not
art for art's sake. If it does not save a
life that's the kind of art I'm not
interested in. One of the things that I
found early on with incarcerated women
was giving them a voice you know I mean
so many women—white, black, blue, green—
we suffer such indignations and such
assaults because we don't know
how to say "stop this hurts me" you know
and if you do you can end up in jail I
mean if you end up fighting off the
predators, people who, shape shifters
who live in your family you know and by
the time you've had enough you have like
you've like broken every social rule and
bad girls should be definitely
locked down and not even seen and when I
went into the jails I was so fascinated
with all the women that were in lockdown.
I was so amazed and also the grist, a lot
of them were very angry, some of them had
a thousand-year-old eyes but they were
alive and they were waiting
for me to lay down the bullshit
you know they're used to the bullshit
and they're bullshit
experts so it's like, "okay, what is this
woman going to do" and I start to move
and speak, handstands, back dance, and I
had just turned like 42, 43 years old and
I talked about my daughter just having
gotten married and I was gonna be a
grandmother and they were fascinated
they were just fascinated. One:
African Americans, we're taught don't be
telling everybody your business. So the
women were staying around like later and
people ask me we, "why are you telling
us your business" and I said because I'm
interested in how do we create through
sharing our stories, our experiences, how
do we create a road out of this place,
back to our families back to our
communities? So I would say to answer
your question it all began with
realizing that I gave them permission to
speak and with some
prompts, it was a basic prompts like what
is your name? Who gave you your name?
And people, women start to realize that
even that was important.
What was your grandmother's name? I met a
young woman in prison in Florida, her
grandmother's name was Aretha. Everybody
went "ooh" and I said you know if your
grandmother's name is Aretha, the power
behind the name, she is not happy with you
being here you've got to get it together
girl and get out of here. And she was
crying and laughing you know something
as simple as that. And then in South
Africa I started to ask women how did
you break your own heart?
Have you put yourself in harm's way?
And also the South African women are
extraordinarily fabulous, inside and
outside of jail and I said well let us
play today, "With Me at My Best," which is a
game from an authenticity study I did
and it was fantastic when women stepped
up and could talk about what they did
very well.
Culturally America, Western world it's
like we you know you worry about blowing
your own horn and I just say to women
you know as my dad told me, "it's a damn
poor dog that can't wag its own tail." So
bring it you know let show us who you
are at your best. So to answer it
was simply about creating a circle and
asking certain questions that to me,
my name is Rhodessa, my brother was in
Korea when I was born, my oldest brother,
he found out about Cecil Rhodes in Korea
and he had a girlfriend named Odessa.
And he put the two names together and
and I didn't get my name for nine or ten
days because he made my mother wait
until he sent her name and so it's a
it's a powerful name. When I was in
Denmark and I was doing children's theater,
one of the critics they said, "Rhodessa
Jones is the exotic child." So I always
tell people that Rhodessa means "exotic
child." Yes so naming things is the
intention to make things, yeah. Absolutely
and yeah that question, how did you break
your own heart, we're gonna get back to
because collectively our hearts have
been broken further in time and I think
we're in a moment right now where
America is looking at itself in the
mirror, America is questioning itself and
questioning the, you know, the toxic, murderous
ideology of white supremacy and we this
moment is opened up a collective wound
and there's an opportunity here for
collecting, but before we get deeper
into some of these specific stories of
the women that you've worked with, how
they used art to save their own lives, I
want to show a clip, Holly's gonna show a
clip from The Medea Project of some of
these women and how you came into the
jails in the first place. Rhodessa was
trying to you know see what was
going on with the women and they would
like really break down until their
stories, they felt really, really safe
with her. She really taught me not to be
ashamed of my story, to not put my head
down and shame either, and that most
people could not have lived my life and
survived. You know that God had a plan
and here she was. And we started meeting
and talking and dancing and moving and
we had choreographers, we had
actresses, and all of this came into play.
There's a four or five months
preparation and then we were for a
two-week run at the Lorraine Hansberry
Theater
so that requires being shackled and
transported in a van. Rhodessa is very
good about teaching us that I have a
right to life and I'm just not these
things and so to have this kind of
audience and attention if you will to
hear what I have to say, really puts a
stamp of approval if I need that, I don't
need that anymore, I needed it then to
say that you're okay.
I don't suffer it much anymore but in
the early days there were women who
wanted to come and sit with us but they
didn't want to have to share anything.
You know just in the end and at the same
time they would put on this mask of
boredom or fierceness. We had some what
Ms. Jones would call "the fist." "She's a
little fist." And that's less about behavior to her or anyone in the
group but more about just so angry
rightfully so that is very hard to
penetrate the spirit you know. Anger is
sorrow's bodyguards so we have those
but most of all it's very difficult to
get to the finish line in something like
this and to be willing. And so I
developed the game entitled, "If we're
gonna work together what is it that I
should know about you?" And so it broke
this facade for a lot of women because a
lot of women say, "well you know I don't
take no stuff oh you know I'm you know
I've done time in prison which means
I'm a hard-ass." It's like okay fine well
but if we're gonna work the other an
intimate way what what are you trying to
tell us about you, are you dangerous? Well
yeah I said well break that
down to me I said because then we ain't
gonna hurt nobody in here you know it's
like and nobody's ever told him that
you're beautiful. You're beautiful when
you're angry. You know so yeah.
She asked me did I know how to sing and
I sing something and I was like
it's not like it was an interview or
nothing with her but I sung a song and
I was in the show. Now this is a rap about
a girl who try to place rock in a rock
your world. I said don't knock until you try...
It's incredible work and incarcerated women are the
bomb. If I'm gonna be in trouble I want
some of those girls at my back because
they met the devil and he's a very dull
dude. And I like bad girls, you know. I'm a bad girl.
I'm out there for like a month or two, I miss it
so much and it's my soul yearns for it
you know it does something, it
completes me. Yeah
I've been lucky enough to see them a day
a project performed several times and
you know it's the same thing, it's a
feeling of witnessing and seeing a part
of yourself being witnessed as a woman.
Because I don't know a single woman
that's not a survivor of something and I come from a
lineage of women that are survivors, a
lineage of domestic violence. I was
raised by women you know you talk about
you know how much you love women and
can you talk about one woman in
particular that has changed your life
through the work, one woman who you saw
heal? You could say her name if you
want just you know what is her story
what's her backstory in the progression? Oh my goodness
which one, was it Cassandra, Angie. Angie is
is the young blonde woman who became my
daughter. I mean I met her in jail. I was kind
of like, you know, she had been
through it as far as drugs and a
life on the streets and at the same time
she was so open to
the process as well as we did Pandora's
Box as a part of a show, you know the
Greek mythology around Pandora and Angie
became, Angie was I think it was
confusion, was her character, and she did
this whole thing of walking back and
forth and trying to answer the questions
and at the same time she wanted to
be near me even when she got out of jail
and was into a transitional house, she
would  just be available to
me, she was on the phone to me and I and
for me I realized oh my god you are a
fantasy, you know, you have set this
up you have created this incredible holy
ground and there people, there are women
that are constantly reaching out for
that lifeline and what does that make
you, Rhodessa Jones. And it made
me grateful it made me aware of my own
power it made me much more open about
who I was and also embracing forgiveness.
You know back to the time that we're
living in right now,
the other side of the open wound is that
there's so many open hearts. Seeing
George Floyd die like that on television
during this pandemic when we're all in
at home. America went, "wait a minute.
that's not who we are." You know and our
children all of them are out in the
streets raising hell Barack Obama said,
"it appeals to our better angels." You know
and our country may be upside down and
leadership needs a lot of work but the
American people
you know largely are coming to the
center of this very pulsating heart. Now
the other side of it is the darkness you
know but as my women in jail
will tell you you'll realize you've met
the devil and he's a very dull dude,
very very very much so. And don't
strut, don't strike, don't
struggle with women, you're not ready.
Women are far more dangerous than men.
You know so yeah the country needs
us doing what you and I are doing here
Sarah,
sharing this talk talking about it cuz I
just want to go back to your piece, The
Box. It was stunning. That's how we met. Yes that's how we met and it
was just like I was like now here is a
woman artist working with men and you
just like created this, it was really a
huge, it reminded me of a dollhouse, the
set did, in that we could look in and
look and you got it. And I don't
know if that's just that as women we
hold everything and I don't know how you
went in and saw this configuration
of incarceration and thought, "this is
what we can do" and I was just like
blown away at the the art that you put
before us as well as the stories so here
we are you know here we are and I feel
like we're a part of the art activists
who are needed.
You know activists are needed if we're
gonna help people in lockdown, if we are
gonna help people and juvenile detention,
if we're gonna help people in mental
institutions. I mean the artist is the
one with the vast imagination. Yes yeah
well thank you Rhodessa, I mean it was
definitely one of the honors of my
career to have you show up at the Z Space,
that was the premiere of my play in
2016 and you showed up with Senator Leno
on your arm. Yeah you know my work as
a journalist and an artist comes from
the unique life that I've lived that all
of us have lived but with art. And
without the ability to express myself
and connect my own pain...I spent 410 in solitary confinement ten
years ago when I was a political hostage
in Iran as you know. You knew that before
but we recently talked about it. You know
it's interesting because I was like I
said before I was raised by women and my
my struggle has very much been my
struggle for liberation and healing have
very much be a trauma, a unique trauma,
experienced by women as victims of
violence by men. And prisons as an institution,
largely politicians are men, largely the
world is run by men,
and are you know putting women and men
in prison. People that but the...you
know I know a little bit about your life.
I mean I've definitely, I've been reading
up and watching videos about your work
in prisons in South Africa and in
Florida but I don't really know that
much about you Rhodessa as far as like
I know you walked into that jail I thinking
you're gonna teach aerobics in 1989 with women and
that's not what they you realized
you were really called there to do it
all. How is this work changed you what
has been your journey in doing this
work for the last two decades? Well you
know just to backtrack a little bit you
know I was a mother before I was a woman.
You know I had a I had a daughter at the
age of 16 and thank God for my mother
and father, we're talking 1965. I was
living in upstate New York with my parents in
the country we had a dirt farm of so to
speak and my mother was very very
disappointed because my mother had, my
mother had had 19 pregnancies and 12 of
us lived and at the same time there is
this, there is a holiness about life as
well as the history of slavery in
America that you know as a modern girl I
was gonna go to Florence crypton home
and have this baby and leave and come
back I don't know, do what. But my
mother saw me in a bathtub naked and she
knew I was in a quote, "a family way "and
went and told my dad and I told them
well I'm gonna give the baby away. My
father said, "no you're not."
He said, "please," he said you know he said
"I realize you're young you might have to
go but if I only have two grains of rice
that baby gets one you get the other
and if you've got to go you leave my
blood you leave my blood here with
us." You know and so that was something
very profound about that kind of support. And so when I went into the jails I
deepened the appreciation for my family.
No, they're not educated
people and all that but the heart and
the spirit and the bonding together was
amazing so when I went into the jails, I
brought that with me and I would tell
them I told them the story and so many
urban girls were just fascinated that
here I was sharing the story, and a 
lot of women did understand it as
well, but it deepened my appreciation
from my own roots and where I came from.
And I you know I was just saying to a
friend the other day,
Black people we're not monolithic,
we're, there's all kinds of Black folks
you know there's like, as there is about
the rest of this uh this callaloo called
America, but I went into the jails
it helped me to find my way, you know
I thought this is my work. There is
something I know about this that I might
be I don't know if I was ashamed as much
as I was just kind of stymied okay. I
graduated high school because my mother
Estella Lucy A. Jones said, "you got to
finish school." She said, "you have a baby
to take care of." Not even that you got to
go to college but you got to finish high
school so I had that under my belt I was
already dancing with a women's group
you know I was surrounded by Tumbleweed
which was a women's group started by
Teresa Dickinson who had been a who had
been a member of Twyla Tharp's company
in New York but she came to California
she wanted to collect it because she
wanted women to make decisions she
didn't want to be "the director." So all
this is the stuff I brought in with me
and also Idris Ackamor, who I just have
to give a shout out to, he said to me
when I met him, he was my partner life
partner for about eleven years, but when we
started we realized that we were on to
something as a performing duo as a very
stable African-American nonprofit in San
Francisco. He said to me he said, "Quit
your day job." He said we can do this
and he said you know we but we have to
just like change our habits we have to
get up earlier than usual we have to be
on the phone
and he had already been doing this as a
musician and we started touring all the
time. You know and he gave me this
incredible platform on which to stand
and then not another man in my life, my
Irishman, he said you know, "Rho you know
everything." He said you know and,
Dennis John Patrick Reilly, he said, "babe
you know everything there is to know."
He said, "don't be afraid of it have
confidence." So I brought all of that into
the jail, even the love of two different
very different men to share with women
that it was possible and of course my
sisters, my mother, women as you say you
we know that circle you know and to have
that kind of energy behind you,
behind me I brought all that into the
jail and I even the spirits of my
great-grandmother and both of them,
the matriarchal and the patriarchal
grandmother, but I and I talked about all
this stuff to these women you know I
mean we're talking crackheads, we're
talking heroin addicts, we're talking
boosters, we're talking paper pushers you
know, foragers and all of a sudden we're
talking about, we're doing kitchen-table
talk and I think it touched on, it
touched the memory which is the name of
my book I'm writing right now is Nudging
the Memory. You know to remember who you
were before life came and before life
hurts, yeah. That's incredible it's
amazing to hear you talk about the men
in your life that have given you support.
I mean my play, and we're gonna
show a clip from that now, The Box is
based on stories that I collected in
solitary confinement across the country
and for me coming into you know a lot of
the men that end up in solitary
confinement and women in this country
when there's 80,000-100,000
on any given day, this is the deep
end of our prison system. It's
psychological torture, it's illegal under
international law. And these are the most
vulnerable populations, the same
populations that you're working with in
your theater work the mentally ill,
people with substance misuse issues,
people with a tremendous amount of
trauma are put in conditions
that's exacerbating their trauma
and and driving them you know just to
the very edge and beyond you know
destroying them and driving them off into suicide, self-harm and what I also
found is traveling to, I traveled to 13
different prisons across the country and
interviewed men and women, I found that
people just had the tremendous amount of
humanity you know I found men that are
doing their work because that's the you
know they're in a place where all there
is to do is think about their lives
and think about their regrets and think
about if they're given a second chance
what will they do with it?
So I was deeply healed and moved by
working with these men and this is um
this is a clip we're gonna show from the
recent...a year ago we did a performance
on Alcatraz Island that the Pulitzer
Center supported in the old
penitentiary and this is a scene where
Ray De Vaul the black panther character
who's been in solitary confinement for
19 years is really, he's saying goodbye
to the four men in the pod that he's
been with side by side though they've
never seen each other's faces so thank
you we'll watch this clip.
What's this? Have a goodbye to you x5.
Hey what'd you put in this? It is your recipe. M&M's, trail mix, bread, chocolates,
eclairs, hostess cake, cookies granola
bars, corn bread, peanut butter, jelly, and
maple syrup and pepper flakes
I came up without myself. Pepper flakes?
Yeah I can taste that. Where'd you get it?
It's a secret ingredient man don't ask
me where I got it. Hey Rocket right you
want some of this cake. Time to go De Vaul...Rack 4
See on this
Gee.
Yeah so that is, Ray De Vaul's 
character who's played by Damian Brown
Damian Brown himself is formerly
incarcerated he did over 20 years in
prison and now he's come out to be an
incredible award-winning actor, that Ray
De Vaul's character was inspired by
Herman Wallace, who I'm sure you've heard
of Rhodessa, one of the Angola Three, the
three Black Panthers that were held in
solitary confinement for over 40 years
for a crime that they never committed
and these you know working with these
men and hearing the stories of men I
think has been a tremendous healing for
me around to see men that find love for
each other and find a way to heal their
own trauma and their own wounds you know
men that have been that society has
failed on every level it really there's
there's a way that art can give this
back to you, right, that prison destroys
life and art can give it back. So can you
tell me what do you think is wrong with
the way that the mainstream is telling
the stories of incarcerated people or
for that matter Black and brown people?
Well I think because we get we get such
double-edged, double-layered messages and
and even you know there was a rush, there
was a rash of prison shows a few years
back and they were all kind of some of
them were rooted in the glamour of
Hollywood you know that you know and we
and we as a public we're hungry to know
something unless you of course, if you're
involved, you know my brother was at
Attica you know so I you know a long
time ago before I was this activist so I
had a bit of a you know a different kind
of attitude about it but I think it's
people are led
even when you get arrested you can
be found guilty right away you know this
is what happens with death at the hands of the
police as well as some of us black and
brown people are not even visible. Just
an aside I have a landlord that has
never ever called me by my name
hmm I've lived here for 50 years this man
has never ever caught, never ever said
"hello Rhodessa"
it's like he opened the door he starts
telling me what he needs or what I
haven't done right or and lately I've
seen him looking at me because of the
news—Black lives matter—and all of a
sudden maybe I'm coming into view you
know so but we've been led as a
culture and we need to believe this you
know the one one of the things about
this American this American ability or
tendency to otherize other people you
know because it gives you some leg up
but as Toni Morrison says if you can
only feel tall because somebody else is
down on their knees then you gotta problem.
And we're at this place now and I think
the artists going inside get to put
these ideas out there get to expand the
imagination you know I've been in places
where my visit has been cut short
because the powers that be are afraid of
what I they're afraid of what I'm saying
to the man you know they're afraid that
these monsters are gonna riot and at
other places—San Francisco's county jail— Mike Hennessey
was he thought it was so important that
that with women, the women I work with, at
first I work with men too, that they
got to have some social social
interchange with an artist and but I
think back to your question I think it's
just that it's easier to make up the
whole damn thing you know and that gives
people that gives those people and in
somewhat power reasons to lock people
down and just they're just never seen. That's insane to me you know the whole
idea that solitary confinement for real?
For that long? What on earth could you do
for that long? You know and it's
interesting we're in this collective
moment I'm during the shelter in place
or sub-quarantine and which is
the ongoing were not at all out of this
pandemic, acknowledgement of collective
safety and at the same time a critique
of prisons and an acknowledgment that
prisons were not making us any safer
right masquerading the public
health crisis both before the coronavirus epidemic and during I mean prisons
have become the epicenters— you were
talking to me this morning we were
talking about San Quentin and some of
the other places in California that are
just exploding right now with
coronavirus cases and there's a
collective a moment of collective safety
and collective struggle where people
exploded into the streets after they saw
the video of George Floyd's lynching
and that explosion was also an
acknowledgment that we absolutely are in
this together right and you and I were
talking about the all the new people in
the movement right this wider
swath of America a lot more white
Americans coming in and you brought up
White Fragility, the book that now number
one on the New York Time's bestseller list
I mean you can you can definitely say
one thing for sure white people are
reading. The top top 10 books on
the New York Times bestseller list are
about anti-racism. And let's hope they're
talking to each other about the books
You know this work is not for the faint
of heart, the work of healing the work of
liberation and do you I mean is there
anything that you want to say about
white fragility or what you've
experienced among the white people in
your life that makes you concerned
that this moment is is not gonna have
the you know longevity that it should?
Well I am I'm hoping and praying that
the people who who say they love me
white people I hope that welcome and I
do I talk about white you know white
fragility in my own way and I'm hoping
that the people that love me or at least
listening or well I I had a dear friend
who told me in all her magnanimous love
for me that she didn't see color and I
just let her have it no and she
kept saying "but I love you." I
said all that's well and good honey but
you don't even know me if you don't see
color.
And I told her don't ever say this
another brown a Black person ever and
she was just stunned just stunned that I
that I had sort of gave it to her, I said do
understand me?  I'm talking
to you like this because I love you.
Is that what we're doing here? Then a few
years ago I did a play at Theatre
Rhinocerous about race and segregation
and prejudice and it was with Black and
white women and most of the women that
were in the play were coupled with another with a Black woman or
a white woman was with a Black woman or a
brown woman and there was one lady that
had a total meltdown as the story
started pouring in about the abuse and
made to feel less than by the women
of color she got so upset and she just
lost it and said "but it's not my fault, it's
not my fault" and you know that was like
this was maybe 10-15 years ago and she
sincerely wanted to be absolved of
it all and I said what are we supposed to do
not talk not here them because you're
feeling nervous and shaky and guilty but
I just want everybody I said I said we
get it you here with us you're laying
with a Black woman so we get it but huh
but understand that you benefited from
it, you benefited from from this terrible
thing called slavery, called oppression,
called domesticity at its darkest you
benefited from it and I think, but God
bless women again, we did we I think
maybe we heard each other easier than
then sometimes a mixed group co-ed group
of people. Women will or
they'll just like want to step up and be
all try keep it real and then there's too
many
you better go sit down because there's
some there's some young sisters that
they are so powerful
young Black and brown
women are
just like they're not having it and you
know and they can and they're educated
so they can bring it both ways or they
are just so furious with where they're,
the women before them have been you know
a lot of the daughters of women that I
know and granddaughters of women I know
they're still in lockdown their children
have to like understand through the
theater I make they come in they hear
their mothers and their grandmothers
talk about the journey that they took or
didn't take and but now they're the
children out front too leading this thing
so I think it's I think that we all have
just keep wide open stay as open as you
can America you know and be aware of the
you know the supposedly the lynchings
that are going on now that are like a
backlash from Black Lives Matter maybe
maybe not
and at the same time pay attention, keep
your eyes open, and also feel you know
develop these other senses because we're
all in shelter because we're all seeking
a certain kind of safety we have other
we have other energies and other
mechanisms that kick in kick in I spent
a lot of time in my head now I spend a
lot of time walking around in Rhodessa's head and looking at those little
places that Rhodessa kept
closed but I also checked my traps and I
try to keep my heart open for the people
that I love and reaching out to people
but you know we're in this together but
be active about taking care of each
other you know about taking care of the people
around. yeah white people need to do
you do their work anti-racism is not
just like a class you took in your 20s
in your day. It goes on and on and on you know
and you've got to be it
you got to hear it you got to hear it
yes. Absolutely so this next clip that
I'm gonna show is about that it's about
you know doing your work is not easy and
it's not for the faint
of heart here we go
Every moment is real
I don't I ain't down with all this
fucking hot fucking costume shit
I'll look at that in but it should be
sacred, it's a sacred
circle to here where modern day,
what what that's what I'm interested
in and this is got to be hard, every
moment every musical sound is its own
picture okay but make sure that this is
a powerful picture okay so good carry on
just be aware that it is sacred you know
that's what I think the spookiness, this is not your mother's theater company. Working with Rhodessa
is very hard at times. She's
definitely one that she's gonna read
through your your bullshit. She can go
from being a great director well she she
is a great director she can go from
being an angry director to a very nice
director like laughing and giving people
hugs to like yelling and banging on the
stage. So have got to express, yes where's
your motion going here because it's your turn
you know say what you gotta say you know
I say how you feel we got her good
girl her process. Oh my god she could
yell at you she could get pissed at you
and you be like "oh I don't want to do
this." But you feel like you know when
you're getting yelled at or getting
scolded it's still from a place of love
and it's not to meant to cut anyone down
which sometimes unfortunately I've seen
other directors do it's meant to you
know make you feel bad, she's opposite
she knows like oh this is how I will
motivate the group to get the results
that we all want
so it's still very loving you know she's
just real she she wants you to tell the
truth it's all about telling the truth
She has a lot of witchery and she's a
you know the sidewalk shaman if you will.
She's very ritual based so there's a lot
that comes from her soul rather than
what's right and people what people
think is the theater realm. Rhodessa
just works off a spirit and soul. Yeah
beautiful so we're gonna move right into
the Q&A because we've got some amazing
questions streaming in someone in. Someone named Kayla
is asking "how do you in, what practices
or daily habits are we both finding
strengthen recently?" Which reminds me of
the question that we asked each other in
one of our dialogues on the side of you
know what have you discovered in this
moment during the pandemic during the
shelter in place that you're reluctant
to lose? The peace and the quiet I love
the quiet of what this time brings for
me but but I'm 71 years old so I've
been out there I had a good time you
know and and I don't want to deprive
anybody of that but the quiet the
solitude with myself is one thing that I
will miss because you know we got it you
know our work, both of us, it's like going
in out of prisons and those particular
places so it can be so tumultuous yeah.
What is it for you? Um well
it's similar I think that I found a much
deeper spiritual practice and I've been able to I think
I've mentioned to you before I was
reluctant to really face my my whiteness
and look at my ancestors you know I
my grandmother may she rest in peace and
power was a brilliant artist and a
pianist and she was also horribly racist
and great-grandmother was an immigrant from
Ireland and she was you know she saved
my mother's life as a child but she was
also horribly racist and to hold these
contradictions and
to sit with that pain you really need a
spiritual practice you really need that
solitude and for me it's been a long ten
year process of reclaiming that solitude
because in prison, that was torture you
know that was used to break me, tried to
break me, so this has really been a full-circle
moment of circling back to my essential
self and being able to to face what I
need to face then...
So we have another question coming in
about how did you find your connection
to art and when did you understand how
to use it in your activism? My
grandmother my big mama, my mother's
mother that's how she that's how she
taught us that's how she guided
us with stories with parables I knew
long I knew about Uncle Remus long
before Disney. My and I the you know the
the briar patch and also she had this
whole handle on the fairy tales you know
I mean she told us about
the maid the maid hanging up the laundry
in the crow pecks off her nose I mean crazy
but my grandmother was an incredible
actor but that was so many of us my mother
and father was working and this is how
this was my early early beginnings and
also it was my way to like seduce all
kinds of people, white people, being
out in the world because we were
migrants so my family we were all over
the Eastern Seaboard so you got that
you'd end up in schools with just white
people sometimes and you had to be just
a little bit more clever you have to be
and knowing that you had just a bit more
real and so that was the early
beginnings of my performing telling
stories was a way to to weave a certain
kind of magic so a way to seduce people
mesmerize people yeah. And that's
connected to another question.
Rachel Dickstein wants to know about the
origin of the name The Medea Project and
the connection to Medea?
How much time do we have? When I
started working in this in the San
Francisco city jails, Bryant Street, I'd
been asked to come in and teach aerobics
to
incarcerated women I had actually gotten
this decree down from the California
Arts Council God bless them they just
they knew so many women were going to
jail they were trying to figure out what
could they do in support of women in
lockdown
so I went in and I would gather the
women on Mondays or Wednesdays or
Fridays and I would go to all the cages
on the seventh floor on Bryant Street
and one day I wandered to the back of the
seventh floor where there were women in
cages and that was a woman named Deborah
sitting there and she was already on the
moon and I'm you know I've got my
extensions I'm being fabulous and I'm
being up and I'm like you know this is
your life that is your soul you want to come
to the gym bla bla bla bla bla and she
all she would say is that only God can
judge me and she was looking far away
and I'm like huh? And she says I'm
waiting for God I'm waiting for God to
come and tell me which way to go so I
went back to the desk and they told me
that this woman had actually murdered
her baby in a cocaine hallucination
fury fight with the father the father
said I want you gone and she because
they were doing coke and he realized
that she had really developed a bad
habit not to mention this woman like
graduated Berkeley she you know and all
of a sudden she's during the day he was
driving buses or whatever and she was
out you know scrounging, getting more
cocaine she'd gotten really strung out
and he found out about and he said I
want you gone, I only want my
baby out of here I want you gone and she
said okay and he stormed out and she
said as Medea
the if you know anything about Greek
classics she smothers the baby this
woman says well you watch watch what I
can do you know which is the final
frontier and she does this and this is I
heard this story and I I had already
been interested in Pasolini's Medea
and I've been interested in a dream of
passion with Ellen Burstyn and so all of
a sudden this this Medea character is in
my face again and I and I knew there was
gonna be called The Medea Project
because of where women had been in the
darkness, the rabbit-hole
that they had fallen into so yeah grew out
of
a basic knowledge of the myths but also
hearing a story that was
really alive yeah. It's hard to try to imagine
the the depth of unbelievable pain to
to live with having
committed that act you know this other
question is all the questions are just
perfectly telling the stories are
telling but Kayla wanted to know how do
you find the strength to hold such
difficult stories? How do you find the
strength to hold these stories? Well they
strengthened me
I'm incredibly empowered because I am
privileged to hear them I found
mechanisms that women will share
anything with me but once I had the
great privilege of being on a panel with
Alicia Garza at Hamilton College and
someone asked her about you know
self-care and she said I'm not
interested in self-care I'm interested
in collective care and I and I think
mine I think God for my Medea crew The
Medea Project: Theater for Incarcerated
Women because they are there to hold me
up they're there they pay attention they
pay attention to me they pay attention
to my need to chill out you know and
they will tell me so you know and I need
that I need other people that are
willing to step up but but largely I am
so glad that this is the work that found
me you know yeah yeah and I would say
the same thing you know the people that
I work with I mean working with men that
have you know some of them don't deserve
to be in prison and I've never done
anything wrong other than just hurt
people that you know made a mistake and
never got a second chance and others have done
violent things and hurt people and
carry a tremendous amount of remorse and
pain and redemption and working with
these men and getting to know men
that are doing their work of healing has
been healing for me you know it's you
you encounter men inside prison that you
just don't see on the outside. Really
people, men that have looked at parts of
their nature that a lot of men or
people for that matter never have
to and have confronted their own pain
and that gives me a tremendous amount of
healing and strength and ability to I
mean to continue to look at. So
Catherine wants to, oh Nathalie's here, we
have time for one more question
Nathalie or Natalie's here maybe she's
not supposed to be? So we'll ask one more
question or two because we have about
five more minutes
Catherine Nye wants to know just talk
about this conversation about violence
prevention and defunding the police and
how reforms have not been enough, right?
The police department is not at
all where it needs to be we're in a
place where we're absolutely confronted
by the utter failure of police
departments to keep us safe I mean I
recently read this a hundred, hundreds of
thousands of rape kits that are
untested yes
you know warehouses across the country
that the police say they don't have
money
the police never should have been
given the responsibility
of these rape kits in the first place so
how we have this conversation about working
with prisons you know and against the
prison system and the police department?
Is there anything that you want to say
about that Rhodessa? Well speaking to
a friend after George Floyd was
buried and it was like okay now what do
we do? This is what the pundits were
saying about with all the children in
the streets and I think the leadership
is going to the leadership will have to
take the young back to the very
beginning you know like all of the
things that that all of the services
that we ignore it or failed us you know
are good housing for everybody
a great education for everybody you
know looking at mass incarceration you
know from all those sides because I was
saying to some young people that the
death of this man really speaks to mass
incarceration and that so many things
were thrown to the side and the police
and I mean I had police in my family but
largely the modern-day idea is that a
lot of them are legalized gangs and
they're terrified of the people that
they are they are really overseeing not
even like servicing, they're overseeing
these people and they're terrified of
them and also it's the only place they
have any power and all of that has to be
this disseminated and looked at
you know it all has to be like with
I think with community groups we need to
start that community review
board with with young people with all
this passion
it can't be politicians that can be
bought off or and it's got to be social
workers it's got to be you know
people that are here in the name of
psychological, spiritual service there's
got to be a large I think there should
be a large community review that's made
up of — defunding the police means that we
have this some of this money to bring in
people to take it apart and look at it,
to talk about racism, to talk about fear,
you know, to talk about men. Most men
don't know what a woman is — they throw
rape kits away? Good lord.
You know what I'm saying give me a break you know and I
think that we have to just like start
anew, as my friend would
say learn the history get with the
history of rocks and stars get with the
hard facts of the planet and you know we
got to go all the way back and and take
this thing, the civil rights era is a
good place, the beginning of the civil
rights movement is a good place to start
taking things apart again and everybody
participating and admitting where they
where they came in or where they didn't
come in or or you know dealing with
white fragility, dealing with the so I
did all lives matter, yes, but if we can
get Black lives to really matter it
would solve a lot of our problems.
Yeah. And so
this is connected to Caden Roberts'
question about whether either of us would
call ourselves an abolitionist? And I you
know I do consider myself to be an
abolitionist in the sense of that is the
world that I orient myself to, that's
where my moral compass should always be
directed and the word and the vision of a
world without prison is what keeps me
trying to expand my imagination because
I struggle with it you know people in my
family violence I've been a victim of
violence and I want those people to stop
hurting other people and until there's a
solution I'm not gonna say that I never
support anyone going to prison. I
have directly hurt people in my family
that I support being in prison for now
until there's a better solution
I try to just orient myself towards the
doctrine of do no harm
and you know but that said you have
to constantly be reminded that the vast
majority of people in our prisons should
be in mental health services should be
in system or substance addiction
programs and that the prison is not
fixing any of these systemic problems
it's only exacerbating them so we need
to right now people are saying these
incremental changes are not enough we're
running out of time we have to think of
the holistic solutions and that's what
abolitionism asks us to do
I think I concur but largely I am a
artist activist I really lead an artist's
social change you know it's just a way
to create a circle and we all start
sharing stories you know and let us
begin from there you know and then
Richard Pryor the great comic said some
folks belong in jail so hope you have to
keep that in mind too yeah. Thank you
Rhodessa what a joy. Thank you it's
been a lovely, lovely time thank you so
much thank you. You can always
call on me for anything in your work and
in your life I hope that we continue to
stay connected. We're in it now together
you ain't gonna get rid of me
thanks so much thank you and thank the
Pulitzer Center as well. Thank you thank you
both I know we could we could spend a
lot more time just connecting and I know
more more questions coming and I should
say that for those of you who we didn't
get to your questions we're gonna have a
follow-up on our website both with the
video so you could share it out or
listen to it again and just think
about our conversations today and really
thank Sarah and Rhodessa and for all
of you for being with us also a special
shout-out to my colleague Holly Piepenburg who's our producer on this session
and just also a thanks to one of our key
funders the Art for Justice Fund and
other donors that support the Pulitzer
Center's reporting an education
outreach on mass incarceration and
related justice issues and the Art for
Justice Fund is created by Agnes Gund
in partnership with the Ford Foundation
and Rockefeller Philanthropy Advisors. If
our audience could stay with us for just
a few more seconds
we'll have that brief survey which will
pop up officially to end our session we
really appreciate your time with us
today
and want to mention that we are a
nonprofit journalism and so we do depend
on donor support. Also to let you know
that our next session on the Focus on
Justice series is set for Wednesday, July
8th also at 2:00 p.m. Eastern and we'll
be having Norris Henderson, Brian Frank,
and Helena Wong to discuss the power of
art to create change and to
inspire justice in American communities.
Norris was wrongfully incarcerated in
Louisiana for more than 25 years. He is
the founder and executive director of
Voice of the Experienced and Voters
Organized to Educate. Brian is a
documentary photographer and Pulitzer
Center grantee and Helena is the project
director for the Art for Justice Fund.
You can find out more about this event
and other in our series on our website.
Again please feel free
to share out all of this information and
thank you again for all of you being
with us thank you Sarah and Rhodessa and
all have a good day. Thanks everyone for being here.
Thanks again.
