[MUSIC PLAYING]
ANDREA LOBATO:
We're here to talk
with one of the most creative
minds of our time, I believe.
He describes himself
as a painter.
But he is a genius that
has directed projects
combining video, lighting,
production, architecture,
graphic technology,
and storytelling.
So welcome.
And I'm just going to get to it.
Tell us about-- you have
a very interesting career.
You started as a painter,
but you now direct a studio.
So I wanted you to talk
about those career shifts.
Like, how did you start in
one thing, move to another,
and then open your
studio in London?
TUPAC MARTIR: First of
all, sorry for being late.
My bad.
And right.
Yeah.
So it was actually a
triple career path,
if you look at it that way.
When I was young I was
very good at mathematics.
I'm still very good
at mathematics.
I started coding when
I was six years old.
And so I thought I was going to
code for the rest of my life.
And then at 15
years old, my mother
moved to Italy to
be-- as a diplomat.
And she knew I was
really, really good
at coding and maths.
But she gave me a camera
thinking, you know,
we're in Europe.
You're gonna travel
Europe, take pictures.
When you're old you're going
to be happy about having them.
And little did she know
that that camera was
going to become my best friend.
And I was able to--
with such a close
thing to my camera
that I could actually
take pictures from here.
And I could be in focus there,
and I knew every single thing
that was going on in my camera.
At the same time I
was playing football.
And I was very good at it.
And so I got highly recruited
by American universities
at the same time
that I got offered
my first professional contract.
And so I decided not to take
my professional contract
and move to the US, visited
five universities as per NCAA
rules, ended up being at
Creighton University in Omaha,
Nebraska in the
middle of America.
And the main reason why
I ended up there is it
was a great football
team, great people,
but also they were building
a new performing art
space that one of the
professors for the [INAUDIBLE],,
who is a Jesuit,
he was-- or still
is-- a "National
Geographic" photographer.
And he promised me that
if I went to school there
I would be working with him in
pictures that would eventually
end up in "National Geographic."
So that was pretty easy simple.
I was like, yeah.
Sure, I'll be there.
So my first summer I ended up
going with him to the Sioux
Nation to take pictures.
And I was learning from him.
At the same time I was
studying psychology,
cause I thought that's what
I really wanted to study.
And then I realized
that I hated psychology
because I was
learning about people,
and it made me a bit
psychosis about myself.
And I thought I was going crazy.
And therefore I decided to quit.
And at that point I decided to
make photography my main thing.
Because I started photography,
I ended up doing courses
in different parts of art.
In there I met John Thien,
who was my drawing professor.
Then John really
grabbed me and developed
from being just a
drawer or photographer
to actually becoming an artist
and going into painting.
And so all the major skills
that I have come from painting.
I graduated from school, came
here, went back to Mexico,
started working in
all sorts of things,
ended up at the Opera
House in Mexico City.
I ended up starting with a
costume and set designer.
But then the opera
house offered me a job.
So I started working
with the lighting guy,
the video guy, the wigs guy--
women in this case--
makeup, I helped production.
I helped the director.
I helped a conductor.
I looked after singers.
I looked after dancers.
And as I always say, there's
one moment in my life
in which I find myself
sitting like this,
beautiful sponge in my hand,
bit of makeup on the other.
And I had to tell the dancer,
can you please open your legs
so I can put this in your groin?
And I realized that there
was something really wrong
with that image.
And so I quit the house,
started working events
with a good friend of mine now.
As I was working
events eventually
we did something for MTV.
I became art director
of MTV in Latin America.
That got me to
working with bands.
Bands got me into lighting.
Lighting got me into more video.
More video got me
into more trouble.
I started touring.
And then one day I
decided that I was fed up
with how things were going in
Mexico with all the problems
with the corruption, with--
a lot of my friends
got kidnapped,
which told me that I was
in one of those pictures,
I was gonna get kidnapped.
So I decided to leave the
country come here, start
from scratch.
First job that I did I
was running the chains
at the O2 for Alicia Keys.
You know, just kind of
going mm, like that.
It was quite boring.
But little by little, I
started doing other jobs.
Then I started programming
for somebody else.
Then I start assisting
somebody else.
Then little by little, just
kind of got to the point
where in 2011, my
accountant said, Tupac,
you're making too much money.
And you need to
become a company.
So that's when I
opened a studio.
ANDREA LOBATO: I think that's
a very good problem to have,
making too much money.
TUPAC MARTIR: And
then 2011 was just
one of those really
weird years where
I had just come from doing Elton
John, Sting, Alexander McQueen.
At that point Lee had died.
I'd just come back from Sting.
And then I was working with UVA.
They won Coachella.
So I went to design Coachella.
Then I came back from Coachella.
And they won the Peppers.
So I went to work on the
Red Hot Chili Peppers.
And then as I was preparing
my first performance piece,
my first show in "Nierka."
I got a call that they
wanted me to become
Beyonce's video director.
And so I got a phone
call 20 days later,
we're doing Glastonbury.
After that I had to do
a very high profile job.
Then I went back into "Nierka."
And it was just kind of
this entirely weird moment
where I find myself having 180
people between cast and crew
to do a show.
And I realized that actually,
that's what I really enjoyed.
It was the fact of
talking to the musicians,
talking to the designers,
talking with the choreographer,
speaking with the dancers,
talking with the singers,
understanding how
the technology had
to go into it, how the
videos needed to look,
how the lighting
needed to react.
And in all that kind of aware of
world things that I was doing,
realized that that's
actually what I like to do.
How do I get to
do more of those?
And they were like
[WHIP CRACKING] work!
So I started working more.
And so obviously, because
of my work in fashion
I was able to do more work
with other different brands
around the world.
And one thing just
led to the other.
And now I I myself with a group
of 26 people in my office.
ANDREA LOBATO:
What is the project
that you were more proudest of?
TUPAC MARTIR: Depends.
ANDREA LOBATO: OK.
TUPAC MARTIR: I would say
as a designer for somebody
else, "Plato's Atlantis"
for Alexander McQueen
just means the world to me.
The way it opened
more doors, the way
that I saw the fashion world,
the way that I saw the design
world, all that kind of thing.
As an artist, "Nierka"
must be the hardest job
thing I've ever done.
But it also gave me
a full understanding
of what I wanted to be
and the beauty of creating
an environment in which
every single artist--
the costume, the dancer,
musician-- felt safe.
ANDREA LOBATO: Can you just talk
a little bit more about the--
TUPAC MARTIR: "Nierka."
Yeah.
"Nierka" is-- bear
with me on this.
It's a three-act piece with
five-piece music rock band,
two DJs, 10-piece orchestra,
10-piece children's choir,
opera singer, 15 dancers, 12
artists doing art in real time,
13 screens--
nine of them on kinesis
motors to move up and down,
four of them on wheels so
that they're moved by people--
and then kind of creating this
entire environment in which one
human being thing takes the
pain of the world, which
is the sense of,
I am going to die.
And if I'm going to die, what
does that tell me about me?
And then you realize that
actually now it's your turn
and you're going to die,
and you're going to die.
And you realize that actually
all of us are going to die.
Very simple subject.
ANDREA LOBATO: Yeah.
TUPAC MARTIR: So that for me--
I mean, it was painful.
It was so hard.
I've never gone through
a pain like that
in terms of making the piece,
the joy of making the piece,
but also all the pain that
came after because of all
the dumb decisions that I made
in order to make the piece.
But, you know, but that gave
me a very good understanding
of what I wanted to create.
So that as an artist is a huge
accomplishment that I love.
As a Mexican doing HIK+ two
years ago with Isaac in Torre
Reforma and projecting 100
meters by 40 meters and being
able to give a letter of love to
the people of Mexico City after
they had gone through the
earthquake was one of the most
satisfying things I've ever
done because I was talking
to the people that I grew up
with and to the city that I
love.
So that kind of
fills me with joy.
And I guess now as a creatively
crazy technique guy that
is balancing different things,
and the last piece that we
finished, "Cosmos," is such
a weird kind of shaking
of the industry and what it's
supposed to be as a genre,
and what virtual reality
actually tends to mean,
that I enjoy it highly
because it's like I discovered
a new Twitter nobody has.
And it's amazing.
ANDREA LOBATO: "Cosmos,"
you won an award for it.
But can you also explain
a little bit more what
it is because as you
know, we're at Google.
We love VR, augmented reality,
every piece of technology
that can help storytelling.
TUPAC MARTIR: Yes.
ANDREA LOBATO: So if you
could give a little--
TUPAC MARTIR: Yeah.
So "Cosmos" is-- once
again, bear with me on this.
So "Cosmos" is in
essence a VR piece.
An interactor wears
a headset, and they
go through an entire story.
What makes it very different
is that the interactor lives
in a space kind of this big.
And when they are
brought in they
have no idea what's
going on around them.
What's going on around
them is that actually there
is an audience that is watching
what the interactor is doing.
The interactor, we
have the headset,
and the headset is then
projected into a screen.
And this is what we call
there's the performance area.
And so the performance area,
because there's two dancers,
also known as the
shadow men, who
are in charge of the smell,
the touch, and the taste
that the interactor will
have across the entire piece.
On this side of
the world there's
me, who I'm conducting live.
There's someone that is
doing visuals in real time.
There's a secondary person
at the back who's doing
sound effects in real time.
To my right I have a cello,
a violin, the [INAUDIBLE],,
all sense, and also
running [INAUDIBLE]..
And then to my right
is the voiceover
who never sees anything that's
going on because he only
has me as a translator.
And so depending on the
movement of the interactor,
I make decisions about
extending the music,
bringing the visuals,
bringing a sound effect,
understanding the voice,
lowering the voice,
changing the cadence.
And so at all given times
I'm reacting to that person.
But then as that
person is moving,
the shadow men are creating
a choreography all around him
in order to give them the
smells, to give them the touch,
and to give them the taste.
So what you end up
having is what we now
call performative art, where
it's actually as we all
perform for the interactor.
But once the interactor
puts on the headset,
he becomes one of
us, and we perform
to the audience around us.
- And we can show the
video so that people
see what it's about.
But the story is also
really interesting
because you're telling
a very different story.
And if you could talk about how
did you came up with the story,
and how you're using technology
to tell those stories.
TUPAC MARTIR: Yeah.
So we decided we
didn't want to do
a simple story because
nothing that we do is simple.
So I was juggling with
the idea of the memory--
with the idea of loss--
the loss of a loved
one, the loss of memory,
the loss of innocence, the
loss of your childhood.
And then we realized
that all of those
were encompassed within
Alzheimer's and dementia,
that someone that
suffers of that disease
would eventually
have to deal with all
those different losses.
And we wanted to
create a piece that
would allow you to go through
the memories of this man
in order to understand how he
could finally find hope of what
was going to happen to him.
We didn't want to do a piece
where we're going to go, hey,
you have Alzheimer's!
Don't worry about it,
it's going to be great!
No.
It was more about finishing and
having a better understanding
of what someone with
Alzheimer's goes
through, but at
the same time what
it means to play with memory.
And because we can
play with memory,
we're able to play with
the way that things
look, the way that things
appear in your head.
There's moments that actually
don't make any sense.
And that's because
that's the way memory is.
And also playing with
the idea of, like, smell
is such an important
thing in the way
that we understand memory.
You can smell something, and
it just brings you immediately
to that place.
And so we wanted to make sure
that all those little elements
were taken into consideration
as we were making the piece.
ANDREA LOBATO: That is
incredibly interesting
because it's a story told from
such a different point of view.
And you do that through
technology, which is amazing.
How do you get your inspiration?
Like, I saw somewhere that
you woke up and wrote stuff
that you thought up in
the middle of the night.
Is that true?
TUPAC MARTIR: Yeah.
I mean, I sleep with a notepad.
You see my jacket I have
a little notepad that I
carry with me everywhere I go.
So I have notepads--
I have like three notepads in my
studio, two notepads on my bag.
My other bag has
another notepad.
My house is like three or
four different notepads.
So wherever I am sitting there,
and even if I have nothing
I'll grab my phone and
I'll write a notepad,
and I'll scribble
something in it.
And it's just the concept of
what we're trying to achieve.
And I always tell my mom
when she looks at me, goes,
what are you doing?
I'm like, working, Mom.
Thinking.
And it's true.
I mean, the amount of
times that I just--
I listen to music 24/7.
I don't even think.
I wake up, and the first thing
that I do is listen to Radio 6.
And before I go to bed I
probably just tell Radio 6
to shut the hell up.
But the whole time I'm
listening to music.
I find it very therapeutic
to let me kind of go.
But also I read a lot.
I don't really watch telly.
I watch a lot of
you too, though.
ANDREA LOBATO: Oh, you do?
TUPAC MARTIR: Yeah.
ANDREA LOBATO: Inspiration
comes from different places.
But also it has to do with your
mindset and the way you think.
Do you think that having such
an international background--
being born here,
growing up in Mexico,
then studying in the US--
has helped widen that?
TUPAC MARTIR: Yeah.
I mean--
ANDREA LOBATO: And do
you see that in people
that you work with?
TUPAC MARTIR: Of course.
Of course it can help.
I mean, it would
be stupid not to.
But I think, if I'm
honest, the reason I
have so many bloody
ideas in my head,
they've probably
been in seed there
since I was three months old.
Let me explain the reason.
And when I was born my parents
couldn't take care of me
because they were starting their
masters and everything else.
And so a writer--
a Mexican writer--
called Maria Luisa Puga
took me away from my parents
and took me to live
with her in Cambridge.
And she is a very
famous prolific writer.
And so she actually put
me into one of the stories
where she was walking
with me in the stroller,
and she was smoking pipe.
And this English man
came to her and said,
don't you understand what
you're doing to this little boy?
And she turned around and
said, his name Tupac Martir.
Do you think he's going to
die out of smoke and cancer?
No!
He's going to die a warrior.
And I can only imagine,
once when I read her books,
how many stories did I get
when she was changing my nappy
or when she was
walking me around.
So all these stories
that have been
thrown at me that are just
probably sitting somewhere over
there that eventually
just come out.
You know, when I paint,
the amount of times
that I will just put up canvas
and start painting them white.
And I will just paint
with white paint
over and over and over again.
And I'll stare at it.
And I go, [GASP]
there's the figure.
And once I found that
figure, I would just
go back to my
sketchbooks and realize
that that figure actually
existed in that drawing.
And then that will
come in, and then I
will start building
everything else.
And so I think it's
kind of the same thing.
All these stories
start coming in
and start working
in my subconscious
and just sit there.
And then eventually
when the soup is ready,
it kind of goes to the
forefront, and goes, right.
Why don't we work on
something like this?
This will be a lot of fun.
ANDREA LOBATO: You're
talking about a canvas.
And you've worked in
canvases, but you've also
worked on stages.
If you imagine what your
next canvas would be anywhere
in the world, what would it be?
Because you've done buildings.
You've done a stage.
Just think what
what's your next,
like, out of the world canvas?
TUPAC MARTIR: I
mean, I can tell you
what I'm working on right now.
We currently have
five different--
five different projects
that we're doing internally
that we're trying to understand
what they're going to be.
One of them is
actually about Mexico.
ANDREA LOBATO: OK.
TUPAC MARTIR: And how
that period of Mexico
relates to the
rest of the world,
and how the rest of the
world is affected by what's
happening in Mexico.
ANDREA LOBATO: And how are
you telling that story?
TUPAC MARTIR: A miniseries.
ANDREA LOBATO: Oh.
TUPAC MARTIR: Yeah.
ANDREA LOBATO: Can
you tell us more?
TUPAC MARTIR: Not really.
Otherwise, I get killed.
Yeah.
ANDREA LOBATO: When
is it coming out?
TUPAC MARTIR: I'm
literally just starting
to put the thoughts together
about how they should be
and how they should go and
all those kinds of things.
Yeah.
We're working another concept
with a bunch of musicians.
And we're working
another concept.
Everything is concept.
And then eventually one of them
just kind of becomes clear.
And you go, OK.
That's the one I'm
going to take now.
And then we'll ride that wave
and see where it takes us.
I can't really be--
when I'm in concept
I can't really
predestine what I want
it to be in the end.
I have a vision of
where it should be.
But I know that from
here to the vision
there's going to be a lot
of shifting and movement
and things like that.
ANDREA LOBATO: Are you working
with any big names on that?
TUPAC MARTIR: No.
Just us.
ANDREA LOBATO: Just you.
TUPAC MARTIR: I enjoy that.
ANDREA LOBATO: Yeah?
TUPAC MARTIR: Yeah.
ANDREA LOBATO: I
mean, because you've
worked with some of the
biggest names in fashion
and entertainment.
If there's anyone you could
team up and work with,
who would it be?
TUPAC MARTIR: Oh, god.
There's so many people.
And I always said I would
love to design Pearl Jam.
ANDREA LOBATO: Pearl Jam?
TUPAC MARTIR: Yeah.
That would be fantastic.
Probably wouldn't
make any money.
But it would just be fantastic.
Yeah.
It varies.
I mean, there's people
in the art world
that I want to work with.
There's people in the dance
world that I want to work with.
There's people in
the music world,
not only like rock
and pop, but also
on the classical side of things.
Yeah.
There's photographers
that I want to work with.
There's painters I
want to work with.
There's-- I just like
to play with everybody.
It's like I go to kindergarten.
ANDREA LOBATO: Bring
them all together.
TUPAC MARTIR: Bring
them all together
and just melt them in the pot.
Something will
come out, for sure.
ANDREA LOBATO: When
you talk about talent,
and because I've heard you talk
about it before, you foster it,
and you sort of are a mentor to
the people that you work with.
I've heard you say that--
TUPAC MARTIR: I
would say a tyrant.
But sure, why not?
ANDREA LOBATO:
You said that some
of the greatest storytellers
of today are Mexican.
TUPAC MARTIR: Yes.
ANDREA LOBATO: How do
you help foster talent?
And where do you find
talent and help it grow?
TUPAC MARTIR: So I foster
by putting them in a cage.
And whoever comes alive, they're
the ones that get to-- no.
Just kidding.
ANDREA LOBATO: Very
"Hunger Games."
TUPAC MARTIR: Yeah.
It's very "Hunger Games."
No.
I mean, I guess I have my
vision of what I'm doing.
And I'm sure that if
you talk to my team
they'll tell you a
completely different story.
But a lot of it is--
all right.
So, I'm a big fan of Jose
Mourinho because of the way
that he stands in front of
the team and takes a beating
and creates disruption
that way in order
to block the entire
team so they feel
safe while they are working.
They will get a bollocking out
of me at some point, for sure.
But I try to think that I
give them the opportunity
to bring who they
are into the project
and not run the
project as a tyrant.
I always say that I'm lucky.
I'm like the captain
of the football team
because I'm allowed
to talk to the ref,
I'm allowed to talk
to the designer,
I'm allowed to
talk to the artist.
That's my job.
And a lot of times that's
where my job actually ends.
You know, the backside
of it is making sure
that they're finding the right
references, the right angles,
the right way of
doing something.
And when they mess up, telling
them, nope, not like that.
It's going to be like this.
And it's got to be like
this for this, this, this,
and that reason.
And then there's
the moments that I'm
ready to jump in and be
very heavy about what
I want as a vision.
But there's a lot
of times that I'm
happy to just give
the direction.
And then they're the
ones who have to take it.
And at some point I'll jump back
into the wagon and make sure
that they're-- steer
it the right way.
I mean, I look at Muly, who's
being with me now for 10 years.
And at first he was
only programming
and doing some designs for me.
And nowadays he pretty much runs
all of the lighting division,
you know.
It's still my face, I guess.
But at the end of day
it's the company now.
And it's him.
And everyone knows that if he
shows up, it's if I show up.
And that gives that confidence.
Same thing with PJ and
the architectural stuff.
And PJ is already a big
designer when he comes in.
But he's got now that bit
of going, right, mate.
Can you go and sort that out
while I work in the background?
You know.
And I think that's
the part of it.
If someone says, I want to take
this course, most of the times
I'll say no.
And then about 30
minutes later I go, OK.
You can take that course.
Bit of tough love.
So is like a team.
You have to manage every single
person a completely different
way.
And somebody need the
arm around the shoulder,
and some people
need the bollocking.
And you just need to
find sometimes you
bollock the wrong person.
And you realize that they have
to be arm around the shoulder
kind of person, or the other
way around with somebody else.
And so you try to
find that balance
to make sure that that's
exactly [INAUDIBLE]..
But at the end of the day,
the most important thing
is I treat every single
person like a human.
You know.
I respect their feelings.
I respect that some things
happen to us sometimes,
and they need me to be
the big brother figure.
Very much like you
guys do, we take care
of everybody in the studio.
And from the moment you
walk into the studio
until the moment
you leave, there
should be no lack of
food, water, coffee, tea,
whatever you want.
I mean--
ANDREA LOBATO: Just
like our offices.
TUPAC MARTIR: It's
one of those things
that when they're
making the shopping,
people all run to go to
[INAUDIBLE] and go, yeah.
Can we get some of this
and get some of that
and some of that
and some of that?
And it's like, the
fact that you know
that you are taken care
of, the fact that you
know that you do
matter and you're not
just a number that is here.
It's my job to make sure that
all those tools that you need
are there in order to
foster your talent.
ANDREA LOBATO: If you could
retell or rethink any story,
which one would it be?
TUPAC MARTIR: Retell any story?
ANDREA LOBATO: Mm-hmm.
TUPAC MARTIR: Hmm.
I mean, right now I'm
dealing with memories
in one of the piece.
I'm currently dealing with
pain in another piece.
I guess I would try to
retell the story of language
and how we got to use
the words that we do.
How did we go from [GRUNTING]
to now speaking something.
It would be interesting
to find the etymology,
you know, like, all
the history of it,
how words are starting to come
alive, why certain access--
That will be quite
an interesting thing
to understand.
And why don't we all
speak the same language?
ANDREA LOBATO: That's
really fascinating.
And on the technology
side, you've
used every piece of
technology-- old, new.
What do you think is next?
What's coming?
And what will you start using?
TUPAC MARTIR: Depends for what.
Technology in show business?
Technology in--
ANDREA LOBATO: In storytelling.
TUPAC MARTIR: In storytelling?
OK.
I mean, I'm a big fan of Notch
and a big fan of Real Motion.
I'm a big fan of Unreal Engine.
I think those are really nice
tools that are giving us--
volumetric is obviously right
now the next holy grail.
Everyone's trying to get that.
Everyone's trying to find
a way of intertwining
and bringing volumetric
to that level.
I mean, the holy grail
of it all is holograms.
Everyone wants to do
bloody "Star Wars"
and make sure that Princess
Leia appears right there.
ANDREA LOBATO: Or
bring Tupac on stage.
TUPAC MARTIR: Yeah.
But they've done
that with projection.
I think it's-- my issue with
holograms-- first of all,
there's no such thing as
a hologram at the moment.
They're all Pepper's ghost
or something similar.
Don't be fooled.
I think volumetric in
that, like, to the way
that we understand volumetric
based on the sci-fi
that we've seen is
currently the holy grail.
If you can do holographic, there
is no need for me to be here.
I will be just chilling
at home with a chair,
and we're having this
conversation directly.
And that-- you think about
the amount of collaborations
that you can do there.
You don't have to fly a
singer or a dancer or--
you can just do it
and put it in there.
And I can see you
in front of it.
And I can collaborate with you.
It's that-- that can
generate-- are you real?
Or are you fake?
And then all the things
that happen around it.
So yeah.
That's--
ANDREA LOBATO: Well,
maybe we could--
I mean, we're at Google.
TUPAC MARTIR: I mean, I know.
I know.
You've got enough
computer power.
ANDREA LOBATO: I want
to open for questions.
But first I want to start with
just a speed lighting round.
And I'm going to
tell you two words.
And you have to choose one.
OK?
TUPAC MARTIR: OK.
ANDREA LOBATO: So the first
one that you want to choose.
So, light or music?
TUPAC MARTIR: Light.
For one reason.
What was the first
thing in the Bible?
ANDREA LOBATO: I don't know.
TUPAC MARTIR: God created light.
ANDREA LOBATO: I don't know.
Black or white?
TUPAC MARTIR: Gray.
ANDREA LOBATO: Oh, fine.
"Nierka" or "Cosmos"?
TUPAC MARTIR: "Nierka."
ANDREA LOBATO: Opera or ballet?
TUPAC MARTIR: Ballet.
ANDREA LOBATO: Pop or cantina?
TUPAC MARTIR: Cantina.
ANDREA LOBATO: Great.
I want to open it.
Anyone has questions, and just--
we are have to use a
microphone for the recording.
So please hold it close to
yourself when you're speaking.
AUDIENCE: Thank you,
Tupac, for being here.
And thank you, Andrea, for
hosting this event today, too.
I went to see "Cosmos."
And congratulation.
It was amazing.
It was a great experience.
And then I'm really
curious about what
you talk about memories
because also being
fascinated by the idea of
memories and also like in
[INAUDIBLE].
[INAUDIBLE] talks about we are--
we filter all our memories.
And we think of ourselves
through what we remember,
or we think we remember.
So there's a lot of filters
in all those memories.
And also with
Alzheimer's disease.
It's such a challenging--
there's so-- such
an impact to see
that this person
at the beginning
couldn't even
remember his own name.
And that's how the movie starts.
And you think that
must be so awful to be
aware at some moments that
you are just losing yourself
and you are--
I don't know what--
tell me more about memories.
Why are you so
fascinated by memories?
TUPAC MARTIR: So I had a--
when I was playing football
in college I got a concussion.
And I didn't know who I
was for about three hours.
And then a lot of my
short-term memory was gone.
So I could still function, and
I still know a lot of people.
And I can think.
But there was people that
I would run into probably
for a week that I would run into
them and start talking to me.
And I understood
that they knew me,
and they were telling
me all these things.
And I had absolutely
no idea who they were.
And it was scary as hell.
And it was scarier the day that
this girl starts talking to me.
She goes away.
And when I turn around
to a friend of mine
and go, who is she?
And he goes, she's
your ex-girlfriend.
And you're just going to go, ah.
OK.
Maybe I should know that.
So then that made me understand
the fragility of my own memory
and the memory of others.
When I was writing
"Cosmos" I-- so
I was adopted when
I was 17 years old.
And my adoptive father is now
suffering from Alzheimer's.
But I didn't know
that until January.
And it made a lot of sense
because I had called him
a few months before.
When I called him, I
said, hey, it's Tupac.
And he goes, ah, yeah, yeah.
You want to talk to Joanie?
I was like, no.
I want to talk to you.
Yeah, yes.
You want to talk to Joanie.
Like, no, Virg.
I want to talk to you.
Yeah, yeah.
You want to talk to Joanie.
One second.
Joanie, it's for you.
And it was, he couldn't
remember that I existed.
And so trying to go back
to those kinds of things
and understanding the
frustration and a lot of times
the way that he would get
frustrated at us because
of something that was happening,
and how you can start playing
with it, and what is a memory?
A memory is so based
on the way that I
think that memory is,
when in reality, you know,
if there's a car
crash, 20,000 people
have a complete
different idea of what
happened at that moment.
So it's so subjective
that I wanted to--
and I still doing it right
now with the new piece
that we're starting to develop--
is we're trying to understand
what is that memory?
How is it that we
remember things?
How is it that we attach an
entire love to that red bucket,
you know, which
doesn't mean anything.
One of the biggest feuds
in my family, for example,
is my grandfather's
wedding ring.
May he rest in peace.
My grandfather's watch,
which I can tell you I
never saw that watch actually
sit on his wrist properly.
Since I knew him that watch
would just move up and down.
But I know that my mother
and my cousins [INAUDIBLE]
being stuck to that because
he was a strong man.
And the third one
is, being Mexicans,
my grandparents got on
the day they got married
a coffee pot, which always every
morning will make the coffee.
And that thing never
got properly washed.
It only got rinsed.
And it has a flavor.
And it has something.
But my mom remembers it.
My mom remembers waking
up and my grandpa going,
go turn it on.
And then I remember growing up.
And I remember
spending time with him.
And the first thing that I would
do at 5:00 in the morning when
I wake up with him was
get up and turn it on
and make sure it boils.
And I dreaded waking up at
5:00 in the morning with him.
But at the same time those are
some of my favorite memories
that I have with him.
Him and I at 5:20 in the
morning sitting on the porch
when it's still dark when
the sun's about to come out,
and we're having that
coffee, and we're having--
and the smell of that thing.
It's just--
And you look at it.
And it probably cost
somebody like, two quid.
But it's one of the most amazing
things that I can remember.
And that's the part that
I'm trying to get to.
I mean, our minds are
so fragile that anything
can be blanked in an instant.
And so how do we
hold on to them?
What makes them so special?
What makes them
so special to me?
AUDIENCE: How do
you deal with being
stuck and with artistic
crisis, basically,
when nothing just is--
TUPAC MARTIR: When
nothing flows.
AUDIENCE: Yeah, when nothing
flows. it's just like--
TUPAC MARTIR: Many things.
So I either go for a run, I play
all sorts of different music
to see what mood I'm in to
try to figure out where it is.
I grab my notebooks,
either one of them,
and I start drawing
on top of them.
I'll grab a book.
One that is not
really advisable,
but I do it whenever
I'm really stuck,
I go and I get absolutely
stupidly drunk.
Like, I'm telling you.
Like, horribly drunk to the
point that I can't remember.
You know like when you get
home, and you're going, oh, god.
Huh.
Because there's two things
that come out of that.
And in the middle
of the night, I
decided to scribble something or
record something that actually
unlocks it, or the full
minute I feel, like,
so bad that I can't move.
And because I can't
move, my brain
has to think about something.
And then something kind
of comes out and pops out.
I meditate a lot.
So I meditate every
morning and every night.
And that, I think
that allows me to--
the girls would
tell you that I'm
really good at coming in,
sitting down at my desk
and going, and I'm
done with that bit.
And you know, and
I come back again.
But I don't spend a
lot of time at my desk.
I'll do 20 minutes.
And then I'll get up.
And I'll go visit, visit, visit,
talk, visit, visit, coffee,
tea, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Come back.
And then go again,
and just kind of
keep myself occupied on all
sorts of different things.
So yeah.
I would say that's kind
of the juggling of--
spend a lot of time
on planes, too.
So those are really good.
ANDREA LOBATO: For thinking.
TUPAC MARTIR: For thinking.
They're great.
I have this thing where
sometimes from the moment
that I get on the express
on my way to Heathrow,
I don't talk to anybody
until the seat belt
sign has been turned off.
And that's about 2 and 1/2
hours worth of your life.
ANDREA LOBATO: Not
even for check-in?
Check out.
What?
TUPAC MARTIR: Phone.
No need to talk to anybody.
ANDREA LOBATO: OK.
Sure.
TUPAC MARTIR: Headphones.
ANDREA LOBATO: I
check in bags, always.
So.
TUPAC MARTIR: Yeah.
ANDREA LOBATO: Yeah.
TUPAC MARTIR: Smart traveler.
ANDREA LOBATO: Yeah, yeah.
AUDIENCE: Hola, Tupac.
TUPAC MARTIR: Hola, hola.
AUDIENCE: It was really nice--
I've heard you many times
talk about your collaborations
with different companies,
especially specifically tech
companies, to push the
boundaries of what software can
do for you for your creativity
and for the solutions
that you're trying to
offer for your projects.
I think that's
invaluable for artists.
And that's the only way
that we can progress.
If you can talk about
that engagement.
TUPAC MARTIR: Yeah.
I mean, because I started
coding when I was six years old,
software is mega
important for me.
I mean, I think that coding
is an entire art by itself.
And by combining
different software--
so combining different
ideas of what things can do,
you kind of go, well,
you get me here.
And you kind of get there.
Well, I need a piece of
software that does this.
And that does that.
What that means-- that
one's going that way
and that one's going that way.
So I need to make
something that goes that.
Oh, but I went to
intersect to that wall.
Let's code that bit.
And that goes in.
And then that has to come in.
And then you start
kind of molding
this proprietary weird
combination of things
that because no one really
thinks about how that can work
together with that
can work together
and how you just smash it, you
end up always coming up with--
sometimes you come up with
stuff, and you go, oh, yeah.
Forget it.
Just toss it away.
Or a lot of times you
finish, and you go, Oh,
that's actually
quite interesting.
But actually the main
pipeline over here
is really interesting.
But actually what's
really interesting is
that bit over there.
And now let's develop
for that side.
That's what-- you might
have a goal in mind.
And you've always got
to have a goal in mind.
But maybe that goal,
you come, you finish it.
But it's actually
something else that
comes out of it that
actually is more interesting
and that you care more about.
So you know, like
right now we're
using an engine in one software
that is actually triggering
another software that is then
going through a protocol that
is not meant to be using it.
And then that goes
to the headset.
And the only way
we find that that's
the way that we want
to do the pipeline
is by playing together.
But by doing those
three things we've
come up with something no
one ever thought about.
And that gives the experience
a completely new way
of understanding and frees,
just gives a brand new freedom
in order to achieve something
different with what we're
trying to do with a piece.
It's good fun.
ANDREA LOBATO: Yeah.
Lots of connections
in your head.
TUPAC MARTIR: But that's
what makes it fun, actually.
I mean, I spend a lot of time
researching and doing things.
And every now and then
we'll go into, all right.
So that's a Google product.
And that's a Google product.
And that's a Google product.
And then you send an email to
the guys in this development.
Hey, have you guys
talked to those guys?
No, never.
Have you guys talked
to those guys?
No.
Have you guys talked
to those guys?
No.
You're in the bloody building!
Same bloody space!
And no one talks to each other.
ANDREA LOBATO: We encourage
collaboration here,
talking to each other.
AUDIENCE: Hi, Tupac.
I have a question about
the creative process
because you talk
a lot about, like,
for example, when
you talk about smell
and about sensorial
exploration, and how
you have this connection
with painting,
which is like a very kind
of, like, a craft process.
But you also work a
lot with technology.
And I feel like sometimes
depending on the type
of technology you use, there's a
conflict between these two also
regarding sensors, because
creating handcraft creation,
like, you lost all of your
senses while creating through
technology sometimes doesn't.
So I don't know how is
that creative process like?
TUPAC MARTIR: I mean, in that
sense everything goes back
to painting.
And that's why I always say
that I got better as a painter
because every single
thing that I do always
gets rethought in the way
that I would do a painting.
And how does that smell?
What is the synesthesia of
what I'm seeing digitally?
And it's almost like
if I could taste it,
what would it taste like?
If I could touch it, what
would I touch it like?
What would be the texture?
How could I do it?
And that's-- I'm very--
I'm very physical.
I move a lot.
And I try to understand it, and
Muly laughs at me when I go,
yeah.
It has to be like this and that.
And then-- And for me, that's--
even though there's no sign.
He has-- [MACHINE NOISES]
You got it?
You know, and he's
like, I think so.
And he goes and programs.
And he goes, is that
what you wanted?
It's like, oh, yeah.
Maybe more-- [NOISES].
Oh, OK.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And he's gotten to
the point that when
he's explaining now to our other
programmers, like, yeah, yeah.
[NOISES] He's
gotten that approach
of talking and saying it.
And when we were
doing "Cosmos," we
were looking at
some of the textures
and some of the elements.
And you're going--
it has to be--
it has to feel softer.
It has to look this.
It's like a marshmallow.
It's like this.
And you need to-- by putting
those elements that don't exist
digitally in a certain way,
when you're making the assets,
when you're making the things,
when you understand what
you're trying to create,
it just gives it such a--
such a different layer, so
that when you're creating,
you have that vision.
When we were doing the
smells, it was hilarious.
So the guy who does
smells is called a nose.
And I remember sitting there.
We were sitting down.
It was the four
of us sitting down
smelling all these molecules.
And when he left, there
was such a weird thing
because we all started
smelling things
that you weren't used to
smell because our sense had
been heightened.
But when we're
doing the smells, we
divided them in a certain
way there was smells
that were physical.
So you are in a
derelict damned house.
Right.
The smell has to be of damp.
And it kind of
has to be of musk.
It's one of those two molecules.
And we found them.
And went, yeah, yeah.
If I'm in that room, that's what
that room should smell like.
But then there were smells
that were all about emotion
and how does it
feel to be a child?
What did being a
child smell like?
And it's like, oh, my god.
Being a child smelled like--
like, cotton candy
and super sweets.
And that entire scene, that's
what it smells like because it
gives you that sense
of, I am a child
and I'm seeing the
world as a child.
The last scene
smells like roses.
And the violin plays a very
Bach-like type of music
at the end.
And it's this idea
of the universe
is meant to sound like
that and smell like that.
But none of us know because
no one goes, [INAUDIBLE]..
But we have that
in our subconscious
and to the world that we have.
So you know, I am not unaware
of all the history and all
the background that we have
from years and years and years
of being told all the things.
And that, whether
you want it or not,
goes back to your conscious.
I'm developing-- I say
developing right now--
we've probably been working
on it for about five years--
about music and how
music is understood
in different parts of the
world, the same piece of music.
And so maybe one piece of
music is seen as amazing
in mid-west America, is seen
as white trash in the Northeast
of the US, is seen as
something that no one wants
to listen to in Africa.
But it actually is seen as
torture in the Arab world.
And you have to take
that same piece of music.
Nothing changes.
But it's how it is understood
across the different cultures
and across--
because of all the humongous
background that we bring
and the baggage that we bring.
My exploration at the
moment as an artist
is all based on what happens
if I don't change a single--
if I don't change the music,
if I don't change the language,
I don't change the dialogue,
I don't change anything.
The only thing that I
will change is the format.
And by changing the format
how is that interpreted?
And then, yeah.
Then you start pulling stuff
because we are all bringing
our own things to that format.
AUDIENCE: I just want to
follow that question up
because for me,
when you're creating
something you're creating
a 4D element in your mind.
And you have to transform that
through the programming, trying
to explain what you really
want, when it's being programmed
and it's being done.
And you've made a very
clear representation
on how that works.
But I would like to ask
you about an element
that you mentioned before, like,
when you're creating something
on top of--
smelling in a particular
way, your mind
and having a specific shape.
It also has emotion.
And you mentioned something
about dealing with pain,
and you mentioned dealing
with memories, and, of course,
talking about Alzheimer's.
It's very, very
relevant nowadays.
So how can you
explain all of that?
Because what you said about
music, the same piece of music
being interpreted and
understood differently
in different parts of the
world or different parts
of one's own country,
it's all about emotion.
And music, for me,
particularly music
is key to many, many things.
But of course, it
brings emotion.
It brings memories back.
It brings a lot of those things.
And how can you effectively
transform and explain
what you want when
it's being programmed?
Because emotion is
very, very difficult
to identify because
it can change.
And it's interpretation
is completely different.
TUPAC MARTIR: True.
I guess the only thing I can do
as a human being is put myself
in other people's shoes and
put myself about how do I
feel about this motion?
If my background and
all my this is this,
how interested or
disinterested would I
be to this piece of music?
How interested or disinterested
would I be to that character?
And the only way
that I can actually
approach that is by
actually abstracting
what is true and in essence
of what I want to say
and understanding
universally, and understand
what that universal language
is that all of us think about.
So when I'm talking about--
when I wrote "Nierke"
and I realized
that I was going to
die, that is something
that goes through every single
mind of every single person you
will ever meet.
You're not alone in anything.
You're not unique in dying.
We all are.
When I think about
pain, we all have pain--
physical, psychological,
mental, emotional.
And it's how I can
find that fiber that
actually threads a
line that doesn't
matter what is your baggage.
We all have this
conscious element
that we're all thinking about.
And we all are part of.
Memory, obviously, is something
that we all get scared of.
I wrote another piece about
fear because we're all afraid.
The question is, until
what moment are you afraid
that fear doesn't allow
you to do anything?
And at what moment
does fear transform
into the thing that allows
you to know that fear is good,
but fear won't stop me.
And it's finding
those universal themes
and then finding
threads that allow
me to bring it in different ways
so it affects different people.
So in "Cosmos"
something that I learned
is different people cry at
different moments of the piece.
And the arc is
different for everybody.
It's different for the people
that are on the headset,
and it's also different for
people that go in the audience.
People in the audience tend
to cry within the same three
scenes, give and take.
People in the headset tend to
cry in the same two to three
scenes.
But if they cry here,
they won't cry here.
Someone cries here, they cry
there, but they won't cry here.
And it changes, and it varies.
And there's a lot of
people that will come out
and at first they don't
think anything of it.
And then three days later I
get a message going, I got home
and I couldn't stop crying.
Because the ball's dropped.
And that's where the
interesting bit comes.
It's the universality
of the themes.
So and here's the last question.
So my grandfather had cancer.
And I found out my grandfather
had cancer when I'd just
come back from school in 1998.
And I realized
that I had never--
I couldn't give anything
to my grandfather
because I was broke as a joke,
being in school because I
had a scholarship.
And I decided to take a
sabbatical, go back to Mexico,
and offer my grandfather
the only thing that I could
give him, which was my time.
And I made sure that
I was there for him
and that I would give
him the quality of life
that he should get.
And that was it.
That was my gift to him, you
know, my love, my attention,
my time.
And in that period
my grandfather
decided to drop all the
knowledge that he had
in his head, which was great.
You know, I love it happened
at 5:30 in the morning.
Some of it happened at 7:00.
You know, I used to sit with him
and have to watch soap operas,
which I hate.
But he couldn't
go to the movies.
So the only thing he could
do was watch soap operas.
And he would fall asleep
halfway through them.
So I had to watch them
so that when he woke up
I could tell him what the
hell had just happened.
Which believe me,
Maria did not love him!
But outside of all that, one day
it was one of those afternoons,
we're sitting on the porch.
And my grandfather
looked at me and said
that there is something of
me in every single person
in this world, that the
moment that I was aware
there was something
in me in you,
you will realize there's
something of you in me.
And if that happened,
I would never
ever hurt you because it
would be like hurting myself.
And if I can do that with every
single person that I meet,
then I know that I'm going
to love every single one
of those people.
If then I can
create a piece that
allows you to see
something of you in there,
and then allows another stranger
to see that also in that piece,
it means that both of you
have something in common.
And therefore, you'll
never hurt each other.
And my job as an
artist is to create
pieces that allow you
to find something of you
in somebody else, and something
of somebody else in you.
ANDREA LOBATO:
That is incredible.
And I love ending on
such a positive note.
Thank you so much for being
here and giving us your time.
It's been incredible.
And I hope that this
is the first of many.
When you retell the
story of language
and when you finish with
that project in Mexico,
we hope to have you back so
you can tell us more about it.
So thank you very much.
TUPAC MARTIR: Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
