Hi everybody welcome to pack
unleashed and thanks for joining
us as always, john just to let
you know sadly can't be with us
today. We fired him. We got rid
of him just wasn't pulling his
weight unfortunately and we sent
him off packing to go camping
somewhere he has in the wild
our reaches of UK filled
Yeah, contemplating on just what
he did wrong. And but you know,
hopefully we'll hear from him
again soon. So as you can
probably tell, or here, today's
episode is me, Dominic and I am
as always joined with the
glorious Matt Yo, yo yo. So
today we're going to be
exploring the subject of
innovation. We're going to be
covering lots and lots of stuff.
If we're going to be discovered
discovering what innovation is,
we're gonna be talking about why
it's important. And then also,
we're going to be talking about
how it can drive your team or
company to become more
innovative. So lots of
innovation words, basically,
we'll also be talking about the
innovation giants. And we'll be
sharing some examples of what
makes good innovation. And also
just talking about the impact it
can have on your business.
If you haven't been able to tell
Dominic is especially excited
about this episode.
I am super excited so much. So I
have had to wheel myself to the
other side of the room. So I
don't shout at the microphone,
which may still happen. So Matt
may have to tweak the levels,
but I will do my best to avoid.
I'll be in the background.
Yeah, Ross from friends. So
either way, just so people
cannot see that or hear it even.
So Dominic, tell me, why is
innovation so important?
Well as the director of
innovation here, Pac innovation
is a topic that you know, as As
you would expect, excites me a
lot. That's kind of fun. I do
the role here and it's something
I hold very close to my heart
and I'm passionate about it's
one of those words that's used a
lot though, isn't it? In times
there can be things like
innovation theatre, and you
know, like innovation is almost
a buzzword these days.
It is a buzzword and having been
to a lot of innovation events
myself, often it can be can come
across as a, you know, a little
bit boring as well, I think, you
know, I think it is your right
is a buzzword. Lots of people
are trying to do it, but I
thought would be good is to I've
got a definition here gathered
from the World Wide Web. And so
I thought I'd say that first and
just see if that resonates with
us. So innovation is the
creative development and
implementation of a new product
process or service with the aim
of improving efficiency,
effectiveness or competitive
advantage. Wow. I mean,
Couldn't sound sounds quite
long winded doesn't sound it's
not very innovative.
It doesn't sound very
innovative. I saw a different
one which was from Nick, which
was like a New Zealand
definition which was innovation
is the successful exploitation
of new ideas but again equally
it No, I don't know if I felt
that resonated with me
particularly.
So how would you describe
innovation?
I think sometimes people just
think about innovation directly
as the impact it has on the
product and the business and
stuff like that, which obviously
it does, but for me, innovation
starts at home and it starts
very much with the people within
the organisation and for me,
people are what makes things
innovative, because obviously
that's where ideas come from.
They come from as human beings,
yes, people together and
allowing them in this kind of
entrepreneurial way to have the
flexibility to be able to
explore in their own everyday
space. So allowing them to kind
of come up with new ideas and
whether they fail or not is is
almost irrelevant. You just have
to be able to give them that
space to collaborate as well.
And you know, trust, isn't it
and trust. Yeah, having the
trust.
I think that's interesting,
actually. Because, you know, I
think a lot of people talk about
innovation, and they think it's
just about ideas. But actually,
I'd argue it's more about, it's
not just the idea, it's the
execution of that idea. You
know, I remember the number of
people that said to me, after
eBay came out, I had
that idea. But there was no
execution of it.
So I think there's, there's a
blend isn't there between the
idea, the innovative idea and
concept and then the actual
execution of that and turning
that into a product or a service
or a business or wherever
there's live, it's quite, quite
important to make that
connection.
Definitely. And, and you're
right, it is important,
obviously, to make that
connection. Because, you know,
ultimately, if you are an
organisation that's going to be
something that's going to be
important to you and you know
what you don't Want to just have
a bunch of people who'll be cool
people like having fun just
coming up with bunches of ideas
that don't really lead anywhere?
So I think
that's the term isn't it? That's
the innovation fear to where
it's like, oh, wow, we got this
great idea. We can do this, we
can do that everybody gets all
excited buys into it, but then
it because it can't be executed.
It falls away, which I think is
one of the reasons that lots of
big companies are kind of scared
off by innovation as well. It's
almost like it's been tried. But
when it's not carried through,
and it's not fostered and
nurtured within the business,
and it remains then you know, it
feels like a failure. And
actually, you get a bit scared
of it.
Yeah, I think I think there's a
tendency for a lot of people to
kind of jump on and be like, Oh,
my God, we need an innovation
hub and stuff like that. And I
don't think there's anything
wrong with that. But I think
sometimes that then has the
tendency to be exactly where you
just said there there's a lot of
pressure to build that and
innovation hub and a team. And a
lot of the time although they
might be quite collaborative in
their own little space. There's
not that connection with the
rest of the company and often
The higher level C suite. And
that's where there's a bit of a
disconnect. And those people,
ultimately, you know, those kind
of innovation hubs tend to shut
down because they're not really
did they really have the full
support of the organisation to
drive things forward? Or if
Yeah, you know, they're not
coming up with say the right
type of idea, then it's seen as
a bit of a waste of money when
actually I, you know, I don't
think that's necessarily true.
And I don't I don't think is I
think also that happens as well.
Sometimes when you just get
outside expertise in is it
rather than trying to focus on
building potential people within
your team? Yeah. And absent and
we'll come we'll come on to
that, I guess in a sec. But what
I was because I wanted to talk
about why you know why
innovation is important.
I've jumped the gun again. So
excited about all answers with
me, like cut out the four plays
straight to the answers.
Well, you know, it's, it's
natural, isn't it because you,
you want to just get straight in
there and You know, your brains
kick in, you come out with this
stuff. And it's all good. When
it's fine. And but yeah, so I
thought I thought we'd talk
about cuz obviously we've given
you a definition of what it is.
But then, you know, in terms of
like, why it's important, I
thought I'd just run through
some stuff, I grabbed off the
net, to talk through what people
are saying, because I think it's
quite a good one then for us to
kind of jump off the back of
that. So, I mean, every day new
ideas are generated, and that's,
that's obviously true and new
products are created, new
methods, methods are executed,
and people are constantly
managing to look at problems in
a different way, you know, come
up with new solutions, which is
great. And that does to an
extent, I think, sometimes from
smaller companies or even bigger
ones. It feels like there's
always this continual thing of
people coming up with ideas and
they're not. But you know,
companies that are truly
innovative, have really honed,
what it is in their own
organisation to be successful.
So that's a bit of a that's a
kind of a ramble fest. Things
have grabbed off the
ball fast.
Wow, we have to have an episode
ramble fest
is absolutely genius.
There's something for me that's
really fun about being
innovative. And you know, and I
suppose you could argue or
you're quite creatively minded,
and therefore, it's a bit easy
for you, would you not? So, but
for me, it does, like I was
saying before, it really does
start with the people. And it
really empowers teams to work
better together. And also, the
other thing I think I'd like to
talk about is just like the art
of play, and I think this is
something that we've sort of
forgotten about, almost, it's
sort of like, there's all these
companies out there. And
certainly like bigger
corporations that are seeing
people like Uber and Airbnb and
whoever you could just literally
insert any kind of modern brand
at the moment that's doing well
and kind of look at them and be
like, how are they? How have
they gone from being a start up
into this like massive
Corporation and almost, you
know, I guess a few Back would
probably have been perceived as
just nobodies to suddenly taking
over and being more successful
than they are. And it's sort of
like, well, how, how is that
happening? What is it about them
as a company that they're doing
that we aren't? And how can we
try and bring that into our
game?
Like, we want to be the Uber of
X or the Airbnb y kind of
thing? Yeah, I think there's
this question isn't there? It's
like, Well, okay, I get kind of
get what innovation is, I'm
seeing other people doing it,
and I feel like we should do it.
And like I said, then they might
go, we need an innovation hub
instantly and jump to that. And
actually, you know, that's just
perhaps not the way to go. And I
feel like there is a lot of
obviously in bigger
organisations, there's a lot of
red tape around, trying to get
these things off the ground. But
ultimately, like if you really
want to try and bring innovation
into your company, it really
like you'd like to keep got
banging on about it really does
start with the people.
Yeah, that is absolutely i mean,
i i think I completely agree
with that. I feel that, you
know, lots of big innovate lots
of big companies would love
innovation. And a lot of the
people on the board want to be
innovative. But if you don't
have a company culture, where
you can collaborate creatively
with other people, and you have
space to fail, and it's not
about protecting a five them
inside a or silo inside a big
business, yeah, actually, you
know, you're winning for
something to be better for the
company than it necessarily is
for your department. Those types
of programmes tend to fall
apart. And that's where you see
those kind of innovation hubs in
my experience coming into these
big companies and then slowly,
silently disappearing, because
it becomes, in the wrong
environment, a self serving
process and for voicestream or
boostin. a certain part of the
business I think, where you're
talking about people that's
that's the key area because it's
it's about culture of innovation
and the space to fail and the
space to grow together in the
space to try new things that has
to be really, really protected,
to make it effective.
Yeah, and I think, you know,
bought in as well by by, you
know, higher up higher
management sort of stakeholders
that everyone I feel needs to be
able to fully understand the
benefit of it, you can't just go
in and be like, oh, I've spoken
to x y, Zed, they're coming in,
they're going to set up an
innovation hub, where suddenly
gonna be like, you know, the new
best Uber or whatever, you know,
they it doesn't, it can't just
happen overnight like that if it
really needs to stem from a real
one for change. And change is a
big topic. For a lot of people.
It's a big obviously there's
lots of people at the moment
trying to go through like
digital transformation and stuff
like that. And that change
sometimes can hit a bit of a
barrier with a lot of people and
become quite difficult to
implement. But and that's why I
think it's important. Like if
you're if you're working in an
organisation and you're and you
become like the head of some
sort of innovation, or you get
given that title is to start
thinking about, okay, well, how
can I make this work in a way
that gets the buy in, but
creates more of a culture, and
that will last. And that's about
later giving people the trust,
and allowing them to have space
to be able to do that, to think
differently, think more
creatively and become you know,
and in and feel empowered. Yeah,
feel empowered. And a lot of the
time in companies, you'll always
you'll come across these people
who are called that, and, you
know, people refer to him as
like t shaped people. And by
that, I mean, you know, they're
good at what they do. They're
good at their role, but then
equally, they have loads of
other ideas and things and are
capable of doing other stuff
outside of what their role is.
And I feel like you know, a lot
of people are like that they're
not, you're not completely one
dimensional.
Like I feel like a T shirt
environment. Doing my lab the
other day and asked me about a
baby in my tummy. That's what is
the shade? For those that's
super interesting. I think
a lot of the stuff that you're
talking about at the moment
comes from idea right from Tim,
Tim Brown, and you sent me a
couple of links to check out
with his stuff. And I know we
find him very inspiring and that
company in general variants,
yeah, definitely they are, they
are inspiring and the Kelly
brothers are, you know, for me
are definitely inspiring as a
company, you know, an innovation
company. And they, you know,
there's a book that one of the
Kelly brothers wrote, which is
called the 10 phases of
innovation. And that, for me, is
another really good it's a great
book and it's a really good way
of describing these what these
type of people are within the
organisation. So I mentioned
like the T shaped people and,
and there's a definition of that
which is a T shaped employee is
in the context of human
resources is an individual who
has deep knowledge and skills in
a particular area of specialism
along with the desire and
ability to make connections
across disciplines. So they're
good at what they do. But then
equally, they have that ability
to flex out. And then the 10
phases of innovation is a really
great book because that, that
talks about all of these
different people within an
organisation playing a role. So
when they, when I do go out, and
they look for people to recruit
to kind of join their
organisation, they kind of look
at these 10 different phases. So
they, you know, if you, if you
fit within one of these phases,
then you're essentially become
this like really valued part of
the team and like collectively,
because I feel like, you can't
just be a specialist at one
thing, and then suddenly that,
that's it, you you really do
need the skill set of multiple
disciplines and I think that's
why this sort of 10 faces
approach is like, really
interesting because it is sort
of collecting people from all
around the, you know, the globe
and who are specialists in all
different disciplines and
bringing them together to
collectively come up with new
ideas and be able to To do all
of the nuances and stuff within
that kind of ID generation
itself.
It's interesting actually,
because like, one of the
policies
I added my own business is that,
you know, we would not hire for
one of the better word
ourselves,
and we define ourselves as
somebody that could be
technically amazing what they
do. But if they can't make that
connection with other people,
and they can't work as part of
the team, and they can't
collaborate in a way, then we
can hire him. And because it,
you know, it only takes a couple
of people like that inside the
business and especially a higher
level to actually, you know,
cause a lot of resentment, a lot
of lack of trust, and all those
kind of things that can
instantly kill, you know, those
kind of areas you set up because
fundamentally, there's nothing
wrong with creating like an
innovation hub, but the
Innovation Hub is almost like a
sandpit right inside a big
business where you can go throw
stuff around and build
sandcastles. But if you can't
even do that, The innovation hub
then it's never going to catch
on and be part of the business's
DNA.
Yeah, that that same same
feeling will kind of get pushed
around and people will be scared
to try stuff and things along
those lines. So I think he can't
underestimate you know, as much
as I you know, as a business as
Pat we'd love to be able to say
hey, look, we can come in and
innovate your business for you
and innovate your products and
services. It fundamentally is
about getting that inside your
own business it's not something
you can buy
Yeah, you can't you right you
can't buy in it is it's a
difficult one because it is
different because they are an
innovation specialists and then
the way that they recruit people
is very specific around building
the bigger picture and building
this innovation thing and kind
of going in and they go into
work with different companies
and they don't go in like you
said, and just say we're going
to turn your business into a
giant No, oh, yeah.
No, no, that's it.
Yeah. Yeah. Cuz obviously that
yes, like that would be
ridiculous to try and even
Imagine you
charge a lot of money for
everything. Oh my
god. Yeah, I mean, you could,
you definitely could,
but it's just not realistic.
It's not realistic. And then,
you know, there's an example
that I saw a while ago of, of an
organisation, a company who was
but basically they bought in new
specialists to come and
basically predict the future of
light innovation. And, and, and
they spending a massively tough
gig. And but also, I think it
was, I suppose it was like
picking up on what they were
doing and looking at trends and
trying to think about ways that
they can kind of push the
organisation on anyway, they
were with them for a year and I
think the project I mean,
naturally was expensive. It was
definitely within the in the
millions, I think like what
between one and five, I think it
was in terms of cost. And at the
end of it, they basically they
came in they did this massive
presentation on everything that
they've done over that period of
time. All of the board of
directors and everyone there was
like Wow, this is amazing. This
seems great. Super excited about
the future now of our company
and where we can go feel like
we've got some direction. And a
few years past, and basically
nothing happened, they built
them up, they got them excited,
and then they left them. And the
and what happened was that same
agency then got contacted a few
years down the line by the same
organisation, saying, We want
you to come back in, you know,
that thing you did for us, where
you predicted the 10 years of
our future, and ask them to come
back again. And they were like,
what would you mean is it's
literally been like two years or
something. And they think, you
know, they could have easily
have been sure. We'll come back
in charge 5 million, and we'll
do another thing for you, but
that they didn't and there was
he said, Well, why you know
what's going on and, and the
mistake they made really was
that they sort of set them up to
fail because they kind of gave
them all of this stuff, and
didn't really give them a plan
in terms of how to actually
implement it and they just left
them in. There was no kind of
check in Or, or any kind of
incremental building of that the
future of innovation, you know,
let's set you up and actually
guide you through over this year
and get you into position at the
end of it, you you, you know,
not just you but the whole team
are really behind it and they
have some actionable points to
take forward and we can check in
with you, they just sort of
dumped it on them and then left
and that is like such a big
waste of time and energy and
money. And often what happens in
a lot of organisations, when
people come in these, like
bigger brands come in and they
try and change the way people
work. And then, you know, EFF
off without they leave them with
anything.
Alien really isn't you kind of
need to plan the alien inside
and then have it sort of burst
out of the organisation and kind
of almost take it over like a
parasite innovation where the
people were not quite dark as
maybe not quite. Yeah, quite
like it but not quite like he
will come and lay in Paris.
Maybe a little But I kind of
like it. There's a kind of a bit
I like it, but like any you can,
like, you know, I always thought
he every big company starts off
in an innovative way, right? You
could argue that some of the
biggest companies now that you
might not see as innovative
actually are still very
innovative. But initially were
secretive or to like, look
forward, for instance, right
pretty much took the car from
being a, a, a random, joyful
pastime of the gentleman class
and introduced it into
everybody's lives, right and
completely changed the way
people live by given the ability
to have affordable
transportation. Yeah. And and
super innovative, right? Yeah,
definitely. But then you
probably argue now do they
innovate as much they probably
do but in an incremental way, as
opposed to the sort of the
boombastic innovation that you
get from someone like you know,
Tesla, or, or,
or the ones that are kind of
spoken about
TNA always makes me one There Is
it because of this kind of get
rich quick culture where you see
a company going valuation from
nothing to billions or in the
space of 10 years, I just think
it's important to reflect on
that, because I think it's
really easy to sit and bash big
companies and big corporate
companies for not being
innovative anymore. But the fact
of the matter is, they wouldn't
exist if they weren't innovative
in the first way, you know, even
in the bigger companies like
you, you even think eight
hundreds of years, I'd like
Rothschild, and you know, making
their money by getting
information back from the back
of the Battle of Trafalgar
before anybody else. So they
could, you know, buy up bonds
next
weekend quickly, which was kind
of like set them up for, you
know, 100 years and
yeah, definitely not the nicest
type of innovation right now,
but but i think it's it's really
important to remember that like,
when you roll it back to people
and I like to see the best in
people and I think 90% of the
people Inside big, big
businesses, a passionate about
that business, they're excited
about what they do their
heritage, and they want to be
innovative. But unfortunately,
the size and the scale can
sometimes take away that place
that they can have that freedom
to truly fail and learn and come
up with something
groundbreaking, and it's much
less scary to aim for
incremental change than it is
for that. Whoa,
yeah, they plastic purse, they
focus on like efficiency, you
know, as opposed to suppose to
change. And that's fine. You
know, like, I think you're
right, like a 1.1 hundred
percent, like companies like
this were massively innovative.
And that's the reason why they
are so big in the world. We are
today's ever changing. And
that's never going to stop or
admittedly like some of these
younger companies that are
coming up and they're being
quite innovative and they're
doing quite well. They might not
necessarily have the longevity
that some of these other brands
do right now.
And they probably will. I think
it's probably the the old Ford
You know, whatever it is in the
data world or the technology
world?
Yeah, they might, and they might
do but you know, but for the I
think, I think in order to kind
of continue moving forward, you
really do have to try and ask
yourself, like, you know, are
we? Are we like moving with the
times? Like, are we moving with
this changing world that
surrounds us in a positive way
that will give us the longevity
or the continued longevity that
we need? Are we going about it
in the right way?
I think it's dangerous to say
big corporations aren't
innovative. I think that's kind
of what I guess what I'm getting
at. Because, you know, even when
you look at things like
efficiency and stuff like that,
you know, if you look at
Twitter, his Twitter that came
up with like the kind of the
combat kind of way of working
inside the factories, which kind
of pushed
previously right in there.
Yeah, and I think innovation
almost in different ways and
these kind of big, like headline
products, but you actually end
up innovative ways that you
can't as a small company, this
is the joy
But you know, I like to think
that's kind of like why
as a business, we can be
innovative because we can have
those conversations and you
know, we're not scared to upset
each other or be able to, you
know, it's safe for us to have
different opinions on things
like that. And, you know, and
support each other in it as
well, when we don't necessarily
agree.
Yeah, definitely. 100% 100% with
you on that. And I think that's
obviously you know, as a company
where I feel like we do have a,
we do have a lot of things that
we align on, but I think it's
good to be a little bit
different. It's good to think a
little bit differently and
know the handle to me.
It's my job as a media set in
the middle of keeping the job.
And normally I'd introduce john,
rambling away here.
I would definitely break it out
into the station, session. It
breakout. We should
put some words in here. I think
we should. I think we should Get
him to add something in here
because you know, it's always
nice to hear his his idea
on it. But sorry, they're on a
tangent. No, no, no, he's
cool. So I feel like I feel like
we've spoken a bit about what it
is and, and I hopefully why it's
important. And then I guess I
suppose in terms of like, how
other How can other people
become innovative?
Yeah. What tips do you have? You
want to if you're a big business
or a small business and you want
to drive innovation inside your
people and build that culture
and nurture that creative seed
sound like I'm talking about
alien again now.
So I think I think the answer to
that is basically encourage
entrepreneurialship within the
organisation. If you can spot
those t shaped people that we
spoke a little bit about
earlier, within the organisation
who are excited about changing
and innovating, then you know,
those people should be talking
to each other. They should be
collaborating
Innovation cheerleaders.
Yeah. Innovation cheerleaders. I
think if you allow that ability
for people within your team who
actually genuinely excited about
that sort of stuff, to kind of
pursue it and give them the time
to do it.
You're not going to regret it.
It comes back to the thing about
the art of playing I think this
is sometimes it was missing. And
I think as children like we love
playing, we're always came up
with ideas. We just weren't
afraid to be fun and imaginative
and we could play with like
three toys and it'd be like, the
most amazing epic journey you'd
ever been on inside your mind.
That great video for Tim Brown
as he
plays TEDx.
That is now where that activity
does at the beginning. And for
those of you that haven't seen
it, where he stands up and he
gets people to draw the people
next to him
and
and the results that come back
from that just
such a is such a good technique
that that video by the way. pool
tables are created for creating
kinslow Yes, we'll add a link in
the show notes. But I such a
good video and I wish I was like
Tim on that stage doing that,
because, you know, I think what
he was able to do very quickly
was bring out that kind of
childish behaviour within the
within the audience and they all
got involved very quickly, and
everyone was laughing and, and,
and they were being playful and
and they're probably doing
something they've not done since
they were kids or unless they
were doing it with their kids.
But in terms of how that sits
within a an organisation, I
think at work, you know, there's
this tendency for everything to
be so serious and like
everything. And yeah, we want to
solve a problem but we need to
be we need to be here, burying
our heads in the sand and
beavering away and like not have
the fun and the stuff where the
stuff where ideas really come
from, you know, like, we're so
consumed by things around us
like our phones and stuff like
that, you know, we're not very
rarely do we ever have a moment
to think outside of the box.
hawks were just constantly like
sucked in by it, TV or whatever.
And we don't just sit back and
be like, actually, you know, we
could just for this session, get
people in the room, get them to
do some really fun exercises.
That's what we do. Like when we
come when we come in, like run
an event or we do some training
or something. We push people out
of their comfort zone, not in a
kind of awkward way, which some
people do. I hate that hold that
against a dress up as a karate
kid. Yeah, we make it fun and
engaging and stuff that you
know, today I hate that kind of
cliche thing of like, we come in
and we met you were funny
glasses and do stuff and it is
not what we do is not like
bearish on people. But it's
about it's about making light of
experiential, right. It's about
like, like you were saying, I
think it's, it's about giving
people that that ability to snap
out of worrying about what the
other person thinks of you or
how you're going to come across
or, you know, all the kind of
things that we get caught up on
as adults and actually being
free to create experiment and
express yourself and in an
environment that's fun and
doesn't feel like you're under
pressure to deliver straight
away.
Yeah, just yeah, just just have
fun and make space for that
to happen. However, Don has said
he's not going to run any of
these workshops until he gets
his haircut after cronies.
Freeman, my hair is is mental
and sat on leave hat right now,
that was my innovation to fix.
Sorry, I've taken it down
another rabbit I apologise.
But don't be so the second point
is like, don't be afraid to put
your money where your mouth is
and invest in the people within
the organisation and just, you
know, the idea of innovation
like you know, if you if you
want it to happen for you, don't
be afraid to put a little bit of
time behind it and it doesn't
need to be money, but it could
be more time because you need to
allow people that that say, you
know that to be able to kind of
come up with new stuff.
Yeah, I think Yeah, I can. I can
Completely agree what you're
saying there. And I think it's,
for me, it's, it's if you're
going to hire people to help you
be innovative or help you, you
know, get that kind of thing, I
think what you need to step away
from is that sort of thinking
that there's somebody that's
going to come in and do that for
you. And actually, what you have
to invest in is that space
internally, to be able to build
that and by all means, bring
people in to support you to
build that structure, and to
give you that way of working,
but
you know, I think that's the
right word there support. So
like, obviously, you know, it
can be daunting, if you know,
you might be the kind of person
in your organisation new, full
of ideas and wants to push
things forward, but not quite
sure how. And I think there's
definitely a benefit of having
someone come in and help you
guide you based, it's about at
that point, then being able to
hand over all kind of, and help
you build that environment that
you can then take over yourself
and own it. Because you know,
that's the other thing as well
is that you really do have to be
prepared to kind of educate
people who are against it. So
you're always going to get these
people Like the devil's
advocate, as we like to call
them here always like, I like
the idea. But rasa I'm Yeah,
yeah, I'm I'm just gonna play
devil's advocate for a second,
which then gives them
automatically free range just
love your idea. The bow first.
Yeah everyone's familiar with
that that feeling.
Yeah and they they come in and
then instantly they've taken
your idea down to absolutely
nothing and completely kiboshed
it by using the just to play
devil's advocate which is just
so annoying and like shouldn't
be but it is often it's just
about educating and those people
cause change I'm
saying devil's advocate ever
ever again don't look
honestly guys if you're
listening to this there was a
look on Tom's face that NASA
high for iPhone he was gonna
unleash I literally thought
well, you know, so yeah, so
anticipate there might be
problems.
But part of that is including
outsiders. So, you know, don't
don't suddenly think, oh, you're
not good enough to be in my team
or you can't be, you know,
invite the other people within
the organisation to come and
join in in sessions and stuff
and, and that also is a good way
to help buy in Yeah, and you
want
evangelists inside of your
business. And if you can get the
senior people in the business in
there, saying how great this
was, and you know, seeing
results coming out of there and
getting behind it, that could
really help you kind of get, you
know, buying a company wide
level for the types of
activities that you've got going
on.
Definitely. So number five,
remember the three C's of
effective communication, be
clear, be compelling, and be
convincing. So boom, I don't
know if any
somebody tell me clear,
compelling, convincing. What the
hell you talking about?
Oh, my God. Well, I think you
have to be you have to be super
clear on what it is that you're
trying to achieve. So and I
mean, we've spoken a lot about
it now but it Like, you can't
be, if you want to be
innovative, you can't be you
know, confused about what it is
what direction you want to go,
you need to have like a clear
stand on that underlying
purpose. You need to have
purpose exactly couldn't have
said it better. You've got to be
compelling you've got to be and
the same convincing, it's, it's
got to be something that is
compelling enough for people
higher up in the organisation to
believe in it. And, and and you
and you know, be able to be
convinced that it's an important
thing that they should be doing.
Oh, hell yeah, that's what we're
talking about. I mean, anyone
that knows us or listens to us,
we're very much up for
design, doing like getting stuff
out there and trying it and this
is the exact environment you
want to be doing that stuff in.
If you sit and overthink this
stuff and nothing comes out of
there that's actionable or
physical or tangible, tangible,
tangible,
tangible,
tangible. And then you know,
people just going to see it as a
big waste of space and waste of
money. But if you can In
summary, showing people that
hey, you can take an idea
quickly and test it and make
something really into people's
hands and get some sort of level
of emotional attachment behind
it, then that's when the power
of these, these hubs come alive
and they start spinning. You
know that that is the exciting
time.
Yeah. And that can be done super
quickly. You know, you can have
that time to go away, have a
think, be creative, and come up
with stuff really quickly. I
mean, you know, and I know,
we've spoken a lot about things
like design sprints and stuff
like that. And one thing for us
why that's important, obviously,
is because it's just like a real
quick way of being able to test
an idea out and get it in front
of people. And yeah, and not be
afraid to fail because you've
been given that space, right?
You've been given the space.
It's not about like winning or
losing. It's just about taking
part and like being able to
explore and you know, in that
way, you can kind of cycle
through things quite quickly.
And
either go I heard a great quote,
I think it's from all the tools
as well which makes it even
greater and better. Something
like the experts are the ones
that have failed most of it more
than the amateurs are saying
Colombians who have never tried
as I done that no justice, but
you kind of get what I'm saying.
It's kinda like, I think there's
this feeling that if you're an
expert saying it means you get
it right all the time. And I
think especially in a business
where you might have been in
that for a long time, and you're
used to being you know, someone
that has all the knowledge and
somebody that's well regarding
that, sometimes the idea of not
getting it right can be really
the serving. So by in this kind
of play pit where you can go in
and, and try these things and
experiment before necessarily
having to like launch it to the
wider market just gives you so
much definitely, it gives you
that environment in that culture
that says, You know what, it's
okay to get your ideas out there
and try stuff and actually all
these little failures along the
way will get us to that one
great thing. And the great thing
about being a massive company
and innovated is that you have
the resources to take that to
the next level. You know, likes
Straight away a customer base,
history funded all sorts of
stuff that can get like just
make it explode for you.
There's a great example I was
listening to actually in that 10
phases of innovation the other
day, and it was basically about
high jumpers. And it was,
there's basically for years and
years, there's been this
technique of like, how to do the
high up. Yes, yes. The Fall. You
say, I know. I know. Boom. Yeah.
And there is and there's and the
guy who was me, yeah, he
basically was like, I just can't
do it this way. And and like his
trainers and coaches were
saying, Come on, look, this is,
this is the way you have to do
it. And, and, and he just wasn't
achieving, you know, I think he
could only jump like five foot
like that. It wasn't the it
wasn't clearing, great heights.
And I think at that point, they
were just thinking, I'm not sure
he's quite fit for the Olympics
or whatever. But, but then he
started doing it his own way
because he just it felt really
uncomfortable for him to do it
that way. And and came up with
this very awkward way of doing
it. And I'm not explaining this
particularly well. But
obviously, this is where the
Fosbury flop kind of came in.
And he started doing it a
completely different way. And
people were like, Oh my god,
don't do it like that, that
looks really dangerous, you're
probably gonna break your back
or your neck. So you shouldn't
do it like that way. So although
he was able to jump a little
higher doing it in his own
little unique way, somehow, like
his team sort of coached him
back into doing it again, the
normal way. And suddenly he was
just jumping like smaller
heights again, and he just,
rather than like giving up then
he sort of took the initiative
to just be like, you know what,
I'm just gonna carry on doing it
because it works for me to a
point where I can then prove it
to you that actually, this is
the way forward and the and then
so we just carried on quietly
doing it in the background and
then jumping the way that they
wanted him to jump and then
suddenly just came out and did
this crazy jumping It was like
nearly a foot or something and
suddenly gained like the world
record and they were a little
hungry. It's just like a kind of
one off thing and then you just
continually doing it and then he
just died. No one could beat
him. He was jumping heights no
one had ever jumped before. And
now, as you as you know, the
story goes like that is like the
only technique that people do
now like, that is how high high
jumpers jump, they use the
Fosbury flop that is the way
that they do it. So you could
argue
perseverance is actually one of
the key things in there. It's
not about giving up straightaway
as well, actually.
Yeah. not being afraid to fail
and be Yeah, be persevering.
Yeah.
Don't listen to people that say
now.
Exactly. Keep at it.
Oh, I can't be intubated. No,
no, I can. I can no, you know, I
can always carry on. But um, but
yeah, permission
just for your sake, for your
sake. And
for ours. I think we should, we
should probably wrap it out. And
so yeah, thanks very much for
joining us today. People should
definitely comment, like, tweet,
what other stuff?
We'd love more people to hear
this and we'd love to hear from
you guys. And talk about stuff
that's interesting to you and
not just to ask them. If there's
anyone would love to be a guest
on the show in a now we got rid
of john, there's plenty of space
there
is plenty of space there. There
is plenty of space.
JOHN is not really got rid of he
has just gone camping for a week
he will be back. He was manager
listening
is fine. is okay, we've not got
rid of him. He's actually he's
actually glamping he's got
something you'd like to do with
me.
Oh, yeah. Well, I'm a glamping.
My camp is kind of like a house
playing field.
And on that bombshell,
great. Thanks, everyone, for
joining us today and tune in
next week.
See you next day guys.
Bye bye.
