Welcome to The Next Question.
I'm Austin.
I’m Chi Chi.
I'm Jenny. So Austin
who is joining us today?
Today
we have Nikole Hannah-Jones.
I can't even believe it.
She is an investigative reporter
for The New York Times.
A MacArthur Genius Award winner,
co-founder of the Ida B.
Wells Society, she has done the
curation for the 1619 project
for the New York Times Magazine.
Basically,
she's who I want to be.
Yeah, the resident badass.
I want to be her when I grow up.
And I really love
this conversation
because I felt
like it, well first of all,
she's a wealth of information.
I mean, I've learned so much,
but I love the way that we're
able to talk about education,
the history behind that,
and really how that intersects
with racial justice.
Because I think I don't know
that you can talk
about racial justice
without talking
about education,
because they're
so closely intertwined.
So yeah, I really love
this conversation a lot.
Yeah, I think she does
a like masterful job
of taking things that feel like
just like you'd be reading
about it
in a historical textbook
and weaving it with like
personal narrative and research
and her journalism background.
And it's just, it becomes like,
you kind of get swept up
in the story
and it becomes like this
is it doesn't feel historical,
it feels like today and that
we need to do something today.
So I really felt like once
she kicked all of our asses
and got us just thinking
about things in a really like,
unique way.
And then one of my favorite
parts of the conversation
was actually about like
self care for black women.
Like that was like a really,
there was like
some vulnerability
that I think
we saw a side of her
that maybe she's not yeah,
so used to sharing.
So I really love
that we got kind of like,
we got kind of both
sides of her.
And that was really special.
I'm also really proud
that we just got her
to drink a ton of bourbon.
Yes.
Yeah.
I feel like we're like sisters
in that and yeah,
she tried to get us drunk
but I'm not mad at it.
I'm not mad at it at all.
So we ready?
Let's do it.
Let's ask the next question.
2017 you won the MacArthur
Genius Award
for chronicling the persistence
of racial segregation
in education.
So, tell us
a little bit about this.
I mean, I'm still wowed by
the fact that you're a genius,
but...
So am I.
So how do you become a genius?
I know you don't apply for this.
I mean, I feel like if I did,
I probably would have tried
even though I would get denied,
but how did you
become a genius?
What was your journey
to this point?
Well, my father's sperm met
my mother’s egg
that was the beginning
of the journey in 1975.
I'm not you know,
I don't know.
It’s funny when people
will like call you a genius,
but clearly I'm not a genius.
I don't I don't know
what that even means.
But the processes,
I didn't even know this existed
until Ta-Nehisi won it
a few years before me.
I'd never heard of
the MacArthur Genius Award.
You know, I'm
a newspaper journalist
for most of my career.
So the only thing
I ever wanted to win
was a Pulitzer
which I have not won.
This is wood, I never expected.
I mean, I couldn't expect
something I didn't even know
existed. But also, I mean,
I just my work is on a subject
that even
very progressive people
don't really want
to deal with.
So
I’ve been surprised
that anyone's cared about
my work in general, frankly.
But I think the award
speaks to your work,
because there's such a,
you do such amazing job
of weaving the personal story
and with these,
like, really hard facts.
And so it's almost like
you can't look away from it
when you're listening,
when you're reading.
So where did that specific
lens, how did that start
to develop in your life?
Like, when did you
start to experience
that way of
looking at the world?
I mean, I think all journalists
are storytellers.
So we're all understanding
and particularly
when you do
investigative reporting,
that you are largely
reporting on things
that people either rather
would choose to ignore,
or that are really
difficult for people.
And so we're always thinking of
how do we make a personal
connection to the reader? How
do we draw someone into a story
that they'd rather avoid?
And so I think
that's just kind of naturally
what we do. I'm very aware
that to get Americans
who in general,
aren't that fond of history,
and certainly have
little interest
in the history of racism
in this country,
that I have to tell very,
very compelling story
in order to get people
to sit through that.
So I just spent a lot of time
thinking about that.
And I love writing.
As we listen to your work
and read your work
I feel like one of the hurdles
we keep, you know, running into
and you talk a lot
about this is resource hoarding.
And you know, we saw it
in the story with American Life.
We, you know,
the examples of it,
we see it when we look
at red lining
and you know,
issues like a property taxes,
and even the segregation of
housing. What do you really think
is driving this, you know,
this desire to hoard resources
rather than to embrace
this more of
like public? I think
you think you wrote about this
and talk about
the social contract
instead of moving towards it, we
can look
at all the obvious things,
but what do you feel
is really driving that
and causing people
to move away from that
or run away from it
in some cases?
Yeah. So it's a lot of things.
I mean, one,
I think, in general human nature
is to fight for advantage.
And human nature, particularly
when it comes to your kids
I mean, this is why
schools are so fraught.
It isn't even people,
if you if you weren't
in a country built on slavery,
if you weren't in a country
built on racism,
I think it's just normal
for most people
to try to get whatever
they can get for their kids.
Then layer on top of that,
you know,
400 years of history
of this country.
So I've actually been thinking
a lot about this
as I'm working on my book,
and I've been reading quite
a bit on whiteness as property.
And that whiteness in of itself
is the opportunity
or the resource
that you can hoard.
And so when you look
at setting up segregation,
yes, segregation was about
maintaining a system
of being able
to materially extract things
from black communities and hoard
actual tangible resources
to white communities. But
it also was
about safeguarding the property
and the value of whiteness.
And the saying
that whiteness in and of itself
will cause your property values
to be higher,
will cause your schools
to get better funding.
So I think that there's both
a guarding of these schools
are the best schools.
These schools are the schools
that attract the most powerful
people in a community,
the person who could write
the recommendation to Harvard
for you or the person
who can get you an internship
at the New York Times.
But it also is about maintaining
the value of whiteness
and whiteness as its own
separate and distinct property.
And when we talk about
the social contract,
we have to understand
so black people
are not citizens of this country
until the 14th amendment.
14th Amendment, which comes
in 1866 grants black people,
citizens of a country that they
had lived in since 1619.
Black people were not intended
to be part
of the social contract.
Because we were not considered
part of the body politic.
And if you look at even
the language
around that as the framers
and the founding fathers
are drafting,
you know,
the Declaration of Independence,
when they're drafting when
they're when they're meeting
about
the Constitutional Convention
and determining
the rights of citizens.
And when they're saying that,
you know, we are all born
with these inalienable rights,
and that this is a country
built on individual rights
of all citizens,
the way that they can justify
the hypocrisy of the fact
that one fifth of the population
was in bondage
was to say
that they are not citizens.
So what you then see is this,
we set up
our public institutions,
there is very high support
for a public institutions
as long as black people
are not part of that public.
And you can actually trace
a very clear trajectory
from the civil rights movement
when black people now by law
for the first time
are getting access,
legal access to public goods
the erosion of white support
for public goods.
So this is when you see
widespread white withdrawal
from public schools.
Public hospitals,
all of a sudden are a dirty word
and those are for
the poor black and brown.
Public transportation,
we stopped investing
in public transportation.
Public parks, you see a huge
rise in white people
building swimming pools
in their backyards,
so that they can privatize
all of these institutions,
private golf courses,
you see the rise in all of
these private institutions,
as soon as black people now
legally get access to the space.
So when we look now about
the way we talk about education,
and how we rarely ever talk
about education
anymore as a common good.
We talk about education now
as a consumer good, right?
We use market terminology.
You need to shop for me,
you need to tell me
why I should come to your school
I should be able to pick
I should go to tell you,
you should be able to select out
a bunch of kids
who I don't feel
I want my child around.
And we want schools that are
going to build you know future
millionaires or that will get
my kid into Harvard.
We're not talking
about public schools
as building
good citizens anymore,
or as helping us to exercise our
rights in a democratic society.
We don't talk about it
that anymore.
And that's because black folks
are now allowed access
to those goods.
And so that hoarding,
that we see is trying
to maintain those same rigid
cast and class lines of before
and understanding
that to this day,
white kids draw resources
that black
and brown kids simply don't.
And I think we're just saying,
you know, it's not okay anymore
to say that. So now we just say
it's about the test scores
of the school, right,
or I'm worried about
the behavior
of the kids in the school.
But what the research shows
is that
the number one driver
of white parents
in choosing public schools
in a diverse city is race,
and particularly black. And
so they'll say
they're choosing schools
on academics. But what
the research actually shows is
that they would choose a lower
scoring heavily white school
over a higher
scoring heavily black school.
So race is really the driver,
it's just that there's
not oftentimes where
the majority black school is
scoring higher on test scores.
You don't.
It's easier to camouflage.
This is really helpful
because so often white folks
think of themselves
or speak of themselves
as individuals,
as opposed to a white community
that is building private pools
and defunding
public transportation
and participating
in white flight
and right, but conversations
like this helped me
wrap my mind around
how white community
has managed
to still operate as community
without ever speaking
about that community.
Right, I mean,
we have the default.
You don't have to
speak about it.
And when everything in society
has been oriented around you
and your success and again,
it's not saying there's not
a single white person
who
struggled, that's not the point.
The point is that society though
has been oriented
around that success.
You don't have to think about
yourself in terms of a group.
Black people on the other hand,
I mean,
literally from the moment
we landed here,
we're not allowed
to be individuals.
Everything about our lives
is constrained
by us being assigned a race.
Everything: where we could live,
if we're one if we could even be
a free person or not.
Could we vote?
Will the laws protect us?
Could we marry?
Could we go to school?
Where could we live?
Where could we work?
There was nothing I mean,
I've from my book research
I just got books
on all of the laws
passed against black people.
I wanted to know and there was
nothing like I mean,
literally like can
a black person play checkers
with a white person?
This was illegal in some states.
Can black and white people
share the same break room?
This is illegal in some states.
There were can black people park
in a parking space
that is designated
for a white person's car?
So when you think about that,
where white person
could cross those boundaries
could go through life
knowing no matter
where they went,
they had access.
It was open the world
was created for them.
We always were constrained
it didn't matter
your academic pedigree,
it didn't matter where you came
from nothing mattered
except that
you are assigned black.
I love your website and I love
the pullout quote that you have,
which says I see my work
as forcing us
to confront our hypocrisy,
forcing us to confront the truth
that we would rather ignore.
And I noticed that
even our hypotheses
is like bolded and underlined.
And I think we've all noticed
that like, very inclusive
language of our hypocrisy
versus white people's hypocrisy
or upper middle class
hypocrisy. Explain
a little bit about
why you're using such broad
inclusive language
and something that I think
a lot of people could argue
I don't see how you're being
hypocritical Nikole like,
this is like white people's
problem what they need to get.
It is.
It is no, I know but then
why are you saying ours?
Yeah. So as, I would hope that
all of us as we learn more,
as we age that our thinking
on things also shifts.
And I definitely think
this is white people's problem.
White people
created segregation,
they created racial caste,
they benefit from it.
They continue to enforce it.
And it is not fair to expect
really the first generation
of black people
who can actually guarantee
a quality education
for their kids to give
that up. And also understanding
why black people
have the lowest rates
of maintaining social mobility,
we're actually more likely
to fall out of the middle class
than to remain in the
middle class our children.
So the stakes are very,
very high.
So there's a host of reasons
why black folks
should not have to
bear the burden.
And initially,
that was my argument.
But the longer
I've spent reporting this,
I realized that we also bear
some responsibility
for abandoning the most
vulnerable in our communities.
And if we as black folks
who have gained
some semblance of privilege,
think that white people
are going to come for our kids.
We're being delusional.
White folks aren't going
to save our kids, I think
the very first school
desegregation case
in the country.
Is in 1849 in Boston,
which tells you how long we've
been waiting for white people
to do the right thing
for our kids.
So I think I say our,
because there is I don't know
that hypocrisy
when you when it comes
to black folks
is probably the right word.
Because I don't think you know,
black people are not abandoning
these schools
for the same reason
as white people are.
They're not abandoning schools
because they're
scared of black kids.
They're not going to the schools
because they understand
the ramifications
for their own kids
are going to these schools. But
I also just can't let us off
the hook that easy.
There's also a consequence
to the choices that middle class
black people
make about our kids.
And the one thing
about segregation,
when segregation was legal,
was that schools were racially
segregated,
but they were
economically diverse.
And so you had a middle class
presence in black schools.
You had a presence
of college educated,
particularly in the south.
Black folks in schools
with poor black children.
And now, the typical
black public school student
attends a school
where majority of kids
are low income as well as black.
So that's why I just think
we all have a role to play.
And while it is again unfair
to tell black folks
to fix the system
they didn't create.
It is not unfair
to tell black folks that we need
to bear responsibility
for our own children.
So I think that's why
and so even it's funny
because I used to know
how my book was going to end.
Now, I don't know how my book
is going to end.
I know it's not going to end
on a hopeful note, but --
Spoiler alert.
If you’re a fan of my work this
should not be a surprise to you.
But it's funny I become less
and less clear
about what I'm arguing for.
Because I think
having the experience
with my own daughter’s school
and seeing the things
that white parents said
about the kids in our school,
seeing this school
where my daughter
has never been in school
where most of the kids
were in black and brown,
where all of her teachers
are black and brown,
were culturally every day
in that school, she is affirmed.
But I also know what she's not
getting academically
I can make up for her
and other parents
in that school cannot.
But then when I think about,
you know,
we had a group of white parents
who came in at the beginning
of the year to kindergarten,
and immediately began
making certain demands
and expected that their children
were going to be treated
better than other kids
in the school.
That they could have
extra teacher for their kids
and they want to fundraise
for an extra teacher
just for their kids
and they wanted their kids
in their own classrooms
together away
from the rest of our kids.
And the more I think about,
like, I don't want integration
if integration means
our kids have to be demeaned.
And I don't believe
in integration,
at all, any costs,
if that means that, you know,
like my own experience
where I was one of a handful
of black kids in a white school.
That's not integration
either going to a school
every day that you don't feel
as your school
is not integration either.
And so I just don't even
I don't want to say
I don't know
what I'm arguing for.
Because I also understand
that as long as black kids
are separated,
that separation is never benign.
That separation always precludes
a denial of resources.
It’s a stamping of racial caste,
our kids know it.
But I don't know that we can
ever provide
equitable integration either.
And so I don't know
what's the right thing
and I think that's probably
the hardest truth about America.
Is that there's a quote,
I'm not going to be
able to say it right.
But it was by this abolitionist
in the 1700s.
And he's basically like,
you know,
if your foundation
is corrupt, right,
everything you build
on top of it is corrupt.
And we import
the first Africans
to be enslaved 12 years
after we landed Jamestown,
so we can rid ourselves of that
and it corrupts everything after
so even when we try to do
the right thing black kids
are still going
to lose out some way.
And so I think it's become
increasingly hard for me
to figure out
what's the right answer
except, you know,
blow the whole shit up
and start over
which I can't really advocate
for a revolution no.
I'm not advocating
for that, where's the camera.
Just to be clear.
But I do think
if you look at history,
the times we have made
the most strides
towards recognizing
the full humanity
and citizenship of black people
has only come after revolution.
And, you know, the second
revolution being civil war,
and the third revolution being
the civil rights movement.
And so I think expecting
that we will somehow
have equality without that.
I'm not arguing for revolution,
but I'm saying
study history it's clear.
Can you imagine what
a restructuring might look like,
or a mass movement
towards education?
Let's say we actually
got serious about this.
What revolutionary ideas
would we be for
if we were serious
about education?
Yeah. So one if we were serious
about education
we’d actually fund it.
So we, in a capitalist country,
show what we value
by what we pay for it.
And as schools become
more black and brown.
You can just go down the line
and see that school funding
has also declined.
I also think we should
abolish private schools.
The private schools
should not exist.
If we believe so when
The Supreme Court rules in Brown
Versus the Board of Education,
it rules that education
is one of the most important
functions of government.
Though there is
no constitutional
right to an education,
not federally.
So I think we actually believe
that education
is the most important thing
for our citizens in order for us
to be able to exercise our role
in a democratic republic,
that we should eliminate the
ability to flee the public good.
And just, if everyone this is
why integration works, right.
This is why we initially
as a country decided
we wanted
to have common schools,
was understanding that when
our fates are tied together,
certain shit just can't happen.
If my kids are in that school,
you best believe that school
is going to have certain things.
But if my kid’s
not in that school,
I don't care what happens
over there
as much as I say that I do.
So I think if you eliminated the
ability to flee public schools
and clearly we would fund them
we would ensure a high
quality education for our kids.
And I also think we need
to absolutely eliminate
funding schools
by local property taxes,
because that is just
built in inequality.
I spend, you know, my book is
about the whole country but
the main narrative
of my book is Detroit.
What you find is in these
heavily black poor cities,
black folks vote again and again
to raise taxes on themselves.
They have some of the highest
tax rates in the whole country,
because they want to provide
quality education
for their kids,
but a very high tax rate
on a home that's worth $2,000
produces nothing. Meanwhile,
you can move out to the suburbs,
and you could have a stingy
ass tax rate on properties
that are worth
a lot of money
and raise a ton of money
for your schools.
So I think we absolutely need to
if we were serious
to eliminate funding schools
by local property tax.
We would get rid of that
that built in inequality
and the incentive
to segregate our schools.
And the final thing
that we would do.
So one to eliminate
public schools,
every kid's going
to, or private schools,
every kid's going
to a public school,
you eliminate the ability
to move into a rich white place
and get more funding
for your kids.
And the final thing
that you have to do
is eliminate all of
these school districts
that serve a single county.
So if you think about
Chicago metropolitan area now,
how many school
districts are there?
So you can avoid
integration and equality
simply by moving
five miles up the road
into an exclusive
white community.
The reason
that school desegregation
was so effective
in the south,
is the south, mostly because
it was a more agrarian
developed county
white school systems.
And so when a school system came
under a desegregation order,
it covered the entire county
which meant the desegregation
order cover the city,
the suburbs
and the rural communities.
What happened in the North?
Chicago was placed
under desegregation order,
but none of its suburbs were.
So white folks who
didn't want to integrate,
just moved it actually
incentivized white flight.
So you would also then
have to collapse
the school district boundaries
and create metropolitan
wide school districts.
If you did those
three things
It would change the face
of education.
It wouldn't fix everything.
Because as we also know,
in integrated schools,
there's tracking of kids,
so white kids
get the upper level classes,
black kids get the lower level.
But it would fix a lot
of the structural problems,
and that interior tracking
is much easier to fix
than the disparities that we see
outside of the schools.
Those are three radical things
that you could do.
I imagine
we would do none of them.
I like having an answer, though.
We know what to do, right.
The thing is,
we hear all the time
that public schools
are broken, right.
The typical public school
that a white kid attends
is not broken.
Now, there are certainly
white kids
who are who are attending
very shitty schools
and depending on the state,
Oklahoma, West Virginia.
They're not funding schools
even for white kids well,
but typically, the schools
that white kids attend,
they're doing fine.
We know how to educate kids.
We just have to have
the will to do it.
And to actually believe
that black and brown kids
are deserving
of an equal education.
One of the things I think
that makes me okay,
everything makes me angry
so I can't say it makes me
the most angry. Because
a lot of shit makes me angry.
But people are like,
oh, we just need more
technology in black schools.
White kids, parents are not
asking for their kids
to sit on a computer all day
and learn right?
White kids parents aren't like,
oh, get an iPad in my kid’s
school? White kids’ parents
want a teacher.
And they want lessons.
And they want science labs
and they want textbooks, right?
So all these things
that if we think the solve
and I don't believe
in saying like look
to white people for the answers,
but in a system
that all racial caste,
you see how the top
of caste is treated,
and you understand
that this is then
what is desirable
for your own children.
So those are the things we know
exactly what to do, we know
how to teach our kids.
There's a reason why immigrants
want to come here
to attend our schools.
We know what to do.
We just refuse to do it.
And I think that is clearly all
of my work and my mission in life
is to one force us
to confront the fact
that we're choosing this.
But to also say
we can make another choice.
This is not
an unsolvable problem.
We just -- our schools are doing
what we want them to do.
Nikole, how do you do this?
I say this jokingly,
I don't think I have a healthy
I really don't think
I have a healthy way
of dealing with it.
And my husband was certainly
saying he bears the brunt of --
no, I mean,
it's not easy it is actually,
I think all reporters
who cover hardship,
it takes a toll on them.
But it's distinct when that
hardship is your own community.
It's a distinct when you person
like you're personalizing it,
because these stories are
the stories of your family
and your people.
And so there's not the ability
to have a separation.
So I know, you know,
a lot of journalists
who cover war
cover these things.
They're like, you know, they can
remove themselves from it.
But I go home
to a black community,
to my black family.
I can't, there's no separation.
It's all personal.
And it's really hard
and I learn,
I mean, I'm constantly
reading about this.
Mostly history.
And it's I've been studying this
since I was in high school.
And I still learn new,
atrocious shit
every two days. And then
I think that the other hard part
is just then interacting daily
with other people
who can just be
completely oblivious to it.
And not just oblivious
but proudly oblivious.
So, you know, it's like I yeah,
I don't have
a good coping mechanism.
I don't know how to cope with
I study history
because on the one hand history
always calmed me.
Because when I was a kid,
and I wanted to understand
this world
that seems so disjointed
like that this perception of who
we were didn't match the reality
and then studying history.
It's like,
oh, it makes sense at least
let you know you're not crazy.
You're not like
making things up.
I'm not crazy and we're not
who they say
we are which was
very important to me.
And that we had a legacy one
like history teaches
you like
there's no shame in our slavery.
But we're taught to be
ashamed of that.
History teaches us
that our black folks history
predates slavery too you know,
even like the first Africans
were brought
to the United States
or what will become
the United States
came from urban cities.
They were
highly advanced in Angola.
But you don't learn
any of this history, right?
So like history, to me was
always empowering and calming.
But it also is like,
I can't ever be rid of it.
So I come to Chicago and on my I
can tell you
the history of segregation,
I can tell you
the history of like, red lining,
like every city I go,
the first thing I think about is
the racial history of that city.
And sometimes my husband's like,
can we just fucking like --
Can we just look
at Niagara Falls
enjoy the pristine beauty, right?
Like, I don't actually need
to hear
what they did to black people.
Okay so I can't do that.
I don't have the ability
to do that and I wish that I did
because it's probably
not healthy like yeah.
Sometimes some of
my close friends
are like you know
we need to be around to do this
for a long time you need
to like get your life together
after that piece on Death, Sex
and Money
I got so many texts from friends
who were like bitch go back
to counseling. Let me
give you the names --
And at first it was like
the first three it was funny
and then I was like,
Okay, now you're
this must be serious
folks are not playing with me.
But yeah, I mean
how do you all cope with shit I
mean like how do
you cope with it?
Counseling. I go to therapy
like once a week
and I will say it's like dating
you got to find
the right person.
That’s what I was saying
who the fuck,
I haven't dated since I was 23.
I don’t have time for that shit.
I'm with you, Nikole. I don't --
I'm going to do what's that
swimmer’s name?
Who's advertising
that dating app,
that I'm counseling app
or some texting?
Can you counsel by text?
Not with what you’re doing.
You need some like day
like all day intensive retreat.
Oh damn, well, maybe this start
with like --
An hour session.
But I do think I think
it's important to find,
for me it was important
to find a black woman
who can understand
my existence.
Because there's
some things you just,
I don't I can't explain to you
what it's like to walk
in this skin every day.
And you certainly
can't spend money.
So I needed that
and that was you know,
and I know people that you know,
other black women
who don't do that,
but for me,
that was really important.
But I went I was going through
like, just like a year
I was like,
I need to go to counseling.
But then after that,
I was like, you know what,
I just need to do this
because even when I don't think
something's wrong,
like I'll go in and I'm like,
Oh, I didn't realize
I was carrying --
because we carry so much weight
all the time.
And also my body just started
shutting down on me.
And a lot of it I realized
was stress and just stuff
that I wasn't processing
because we just keep going.
So not to be one
more person to say,
but I just you know,
Chi Chi said it in judgment now.
Sometimes I’ll say that bourbon
is my therapist
and that doesn't go over well.
But I also I drink bourbon too
that is also helpful.
You can do both.
You know what you should try
is bourbon and counseling,
bring bourbon
to the counselor. I mean,
counseling on top of counseling.
That's how you know you found
the right one.
When they allow you to drink
bourbon together.
When they start drinking
with you
maybe that will be that.
Yeah, I don't know,
I feel like that's just going
out with a girlfriend.
Yeah, you don't want to do that.
There is that relationship,
but I do think being
a black woman in America
and just trying to exist
as your full self is exhausting.
But it's also an act
of resistance because
and resistance is exhausting,
you know, in itself.
So anytime we're showing up,
even if we're like strong
and we believe that I know
I'm supposed to be here,
there's still a little bit of
like work to fully show up,
at least for me.
Because I’m like --
But you know what resistance
is also liberating.
Yeah, it is. Because when I,
the reason I can do that
is because
I've seen other people do it.
And I realized,
like my hair, like,
I realized
like for the longest time
I was like,
it's got to be straight.
It's got to look like this
for me to, you know, to do well.
To succeed, be accepted.
And then I thought I remember
seeing the first executive,
she had her hair in braids,
and I was like, oh,
I didn’t know you could do that.
And she was just like herself,
and I was like,
oh, okay, that's what I want.
Because that, like you said,
that's freedom, you know,
and then on a little bit,
but like, I get to, like,
step into that.
And I think about
that for myself
when I show up in spaces
where I'm like,
okay,
I don't know who's around me,
but maybe there's somebody else
that needs to see that
and know like, that's okay.
And I feel that way with you.
Like when I you know,
I saw your Twitter bio.
You know, I like I think
you were talking in an interview
about how you are who you are,
wherever you go. And I'm like,
Yes, I don't need to code switch
to be in this space,
because I'm good at what I do
I know that
and I can show up with that.
Because white supremacy tells me
I should look a certain way,
talk a certain way.
But that's bondage, you know,
and I, I am the way that I am
because this is how
I was created.
So, you know.
I mean, think about the fact
that some places are having
to pass legislation that says,
you can't discriminate
against black women
for wearing their natural
fucking hair.
Like their hair that literally
sprout from your head
has to be laws passed for this.
I tell like young folks
all the time
that you have to make a choice.
And you can make a choice
to conform or not to conform.
You have to do
what you can live with.
But I'm also like,
not going to sell them a dream
and I tell them
by like not conforming trust
like you actually
might not make it.
And I think that's important
to be honest, as well.
You know, like a lot
of young folks look at me,
and they feel very liberated
and they're like, oh my god,
like I like your hair
and your nails
and like how you dress
and how you speak.
And then like I same thing
that you said,
when you saw that executive
right there like,
oh, I didn't know you could work
at the Times and do that.
And I'm like, look how many
people at the Times are like me.
Mostly you can't.
And I think that
that is also important,
because we have to, like,
give folks a realistic idea
of what this means.
And what I always say
I say this to black parents,
and I just say this in general,
If you're black, there will be
a struggle it's which one?
Right, there's not an existence
where there isn't one.
So for me, it's like my struggle
was, I am from Waterloo, Iowa.
I wasn't supposed to be
in any of the spaces
I'm in so I'm not that invested.
So I couldn't not be me.
But
I also have very strong goals,
I wasn't going to get
where I am.
And I made that choice and
other folks really want to get
where they want to be
and so their choice is
that they're going to
tone themselves down.
So all these things
are a struggle,
but it’s which
one do you choose?
And for me, yeah, --
I think I've had to redefine
what it means to make it, right.
So does making it mean
becoming the CEO
or does making it me
producing my own shit?
Nikole can you tell us about the
book project you're working on?
It's past due.
All the good ones are.
That's what I'm told
but a lot of bad ones are too
so. So yeah,
so I have literally written
tens of thousands of words
on school segregation,
yet still didn't feel like
I was able to write enough.
So I'm working on a book called
The Problem We All Live With,
which is named after
the Norman Rockwell painting
of Ruby Bridges
attempting to become
the first black child
in the south
to attend a white school.
And the book is
about school segregation
in the entire country,
going all the way
back to slavery.
Basically making the argument
that
when it comes to black kids,
our schools are not broken,
but operating as designed.
That, you know,
black folks are the only people
in the history
of the United States
for whom it was illegal
to read and write,
for whom it was illegal
to get an education.
And even at the founding of
common schools in the country,
when Horace Mann, considered
the father of the public school
has his vision of
publicly funded common schools.
He makes a compromise
that in order to get white,
popular support
for public education,
he must exclude black children.
And so and of course,
that's Boston.
So no matter what part
of the country you were in,
there was not a belief
that black children should be
educated initially at all,
because education leads
to resistance and education
allows one
to compete economically.
And schools were about
building citizens and black kids
were not considered citizens.
And so I'm arguing that with
that framework and foundation,
the fact that to this day,
black children
still do not receive
an equal and quality education
is because our schools were
never designed to ensure that.
We appreciate it.
Can you tell us a little bit
about the Ida B.
Wells Investigative Society?
Absolutely.
There she is. So Ida B.
Wells Society is an organization
that I helped co-found in 2016.
And we exist to help try
and create more investigative
reporters of color.
And the reason why we exist
is we clearly you know,
the First Amendment
of the Constitution
is about the right
to a free press.
And we understand
in this country,
that the most valuable tool
for holding our democracy
accountable is a free press.
And investigative reporting
is the highest level of press
because investigative reporting
is that which reveals the way
that powerful people
weild their power
against vulnerable people.
And unearth corruption
and hold our elected officials
and other power
brokers accountable.
It is also the whitest field
of reporting,
because it follows
the same hierarchies
that you see in society.
These are the most
prestigious positions,
investigative reporting
costs the most money
because it tends to take
a very long time.
And so it's very hard
for black and brown journalists
to get into those positions.
And myself and our co founders
understand
personally how hard it was
to get in those positions
because no one saw any of us
as investigative reporters,
kind of had to make our own way.
So we were at an investigative
reporting conference in 2015
and looked around
I’d only met
two of our co-founders that day.
But you know, when you’re
black folks in a white space --
They find each other.
you might not have shit else
in common --
But you’re going to be friends.
So we are all like having drinks
in the lobby,
and we're looking around
and we're like,
we're like 95% of the black
people at this conference.
And we're 95% of it with all
these investigative conferences.
And we just decided
at that moment,
we're going to do
something about it.
We're tired of waiting
for these organizations
to keep bringing their hand.
We wish we could find more
diversity, but we just can't.
Because we knew like, we wanted
to be investigative reporters.
We knew lots of folks who want
to do investigative reporting
but didn't have the support.
So we decided to found
this organization.
We named it after Ida B.
Wells one because she's
the most boss ass chick
in American History.
But also because we wanted
to tie into a legacy
and show like,
this is not black folks
doing investigative
reporting is not new.
And Ida B.
Wells was the innovator,
she was a data journalist.
Like she innovated
reporting techniques
that we still use this day,
even though she was largely
written out of that story.
So we decided
to name organization
after her to tie
into this legacy,
but also to show like this is
the work that we have been doing
and at the top of our game.
And it's been one of
the hardest things I've done
because I've never started
or run an organization in my life.
And I you know, all of us
already have full time jobs.
But it's been some of the most
fulfilling our trainings
always sell out, which clearly
and we charge very little
like our whole point
is to make this accessible.
To provide the best
top quality training
but also to show journalists
of color, it is important
that they're trained
by journalists of color.
Because it's not surprising
to see white men
teaching you
investigative reporting.
What I needed to see with
someone like me doing this work
and what younger or even
established journalists
need to see someone like them
doing this work.
And the, you know,
amount of people
who want to be trained
just tells me
that this desire has been there,
but the opportunity has not.
So yeah, it's been great.
Anyone who's interested,
IdaBWellsSociety.org
we always take donations.
But we also offer trainings
all over the country.
And we're training people
to be trainers.
And we pay because
we don't believe in free labor
enough of that.
But we're really
just trying to expand.
And I guess the last thing
I'll say on this
is the reason why it matters
is there's just stories
that don't get covered.
If we're not doing
investigative reporting.
And the best example
I can recent example,
I can give, you can look
at police killings, right.
Anybody who has lived
in a black neighborhoods know
that that black people are
regularly abused by the police.
But these police killings
were happening
and mainstream newsrooms
are just giving the police side
of the story
and not investigating.
And what it took was social
media, regular citizens,
posting videos that counteract
the police narrative.
That's how we find out
about Michael Brown.
That's how we find out
about Walter Scott.
And that's how we find out
about Eric Garner.
Not from reporters
asking questions.
And so when those citizens go
and start posting these videos,
it forces the media
to start reporting.
And then we saw I mean, now
we're not reporting on it again.
But we saw two years
of very intensive scrutiny.
And that in fact, a piece
in The Washington you know,
a project in
in the Washington Post wins
the Pulitzer looking at this.
But the only reason that happens
is because people of color
start posting videos
on their own.
If you have black and brown
investigative reporters
in those newsrooms,
they're asking those questions
and they're telling
those stories.
So that is why it is critical
for us to be there,
not for some politically
correct bullshit,
but because it actually
makes the reporting better
and because we're going to see
and tell stories
that white journalists
simply miss.
That's good
We don't know how
to address the fact
that this stuff
is still in the air.
People tell the story
like Dr. King preached the
I Have a Dream speech
and then ascended into heaven.
Especially in anti-racism work,
I say black women
are 100% experts regardless.
I'm deeply invested in building
movements
where folks aren't shamed
for not coming out of the womb,
understanding cis hetero
patriarchal violence.
Prison isn't addressing trauma.
It's not addressing violence.
Prison is a place
of trauma and violence.
Everything in the news
is just like beating us down.
I want to see stories
about black women
succeeding and thriving.
Black folks in a white space --
They find each other.
you might not have shit else
in common --
But you’re going to be friends.
I love all the warm up
questions, I really
I was like hell, we’re here.
Hi everyone, thank you
so much
for watching our first episode
of The Next Question.
A special shootout to all
of our Kickstarter backers,
thank you so much
for your support.
We really hope that you
enjoyed this episode
and make sure
that you go to TNQshow.com
for homework
and for other fun things.
Thanks so much
and we will see you next week.
