IT IS ABOUT HISTORY, POLICY,
AND IMPACT.
A NEW PERSPECTIVE ON CURRENT
AFFAIRS.
BRINGING EXPERIENCE IN
SCHOLARSHIP TO THE URGENT ISSUES
OF TODAY.
IT IS ABOUT OUR PAST, PRESENT,
AND FUTURE.
YOUR HOST, DOUGLAS BLACKMON FROM
UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA'S MILLER
CENTER, THIS IS AMERICAN FORUM.
WELCOME BACK TO THE MILLER
CENTER'S AMERICAN FORUM.
I'M DOUG BLACKMON.
WE'RE JOINED TODAY BY EDWARD
BAPTIST.
HE'S A PROFESSOR AT CORNELL
UNIVERSITY AND RECENTLY
PUBLISHED A VERY SERIOUS AND
UNCOMFORTABLE WORK OF AMERICAN
HISTORY THAT HAS RECEIVED AN
ABSOLUTELY EXTRAORDINARY
RESPONSE.
THE TITLE IS, "THE HALF HAS
NEVER BEEN TOLD: SLAVERY AND THE
MAKING OF AMERICAN CAPITALISM."
IT IS A HISTORY OF ANTEBELLUM
SLAVERY IN THE UNITED STATES
ARGUING THAT THE ENSLAVEMENT OF
AFRICAN PEOPLE BROUGHT TO NORTH
AMERICA IN THE TWO CENTURIES
PRIOR TO THE CIVIL WAR WAS NOT
JUST A GREAT MORAL FAILURE IN
AMERICAN SOCIETY IN THE SOUTH
SPECIFICALLY, BUT WAS, IN FACT,
CORNERSTONE FOR ECONOMIC SUCCESS
THROUGHOUT THE UNITED STATES IN
THAT CENTURY.
THAT FOR DECADES AND DECADES
SLAVERY WAS CENTRAL TO THE
FORTUNES OF GENERATIONS OF ALL
WHITE AMERICANS IN THE NORTH,
SOUTH AND WEST REGARDLESS OF
WHETHER THEY OWNED ENSLAVED
PEOPLE OR PARTICIPATED IN THE
BUSINESS OF SLAVERY.
HE SUGGESTS THAT EVEN THE VERY
SURVIVAL OF THE YOUNG AMERICAN
REPUBLIC CREATED IN 1776 WAS DUE
TO THE NATION'S VORACIOUS AND
VIOLENT EXPLOITATION OF ENSLAVED
PEOPLE.
AND THAT WITHOUT SLAVERY THE
UNITED STATES WOULD NEVER HAVE
EMERGED AS A WORLD POWER.
HIS DEPICTION OF THE SADISM AS
EMPLOYED TO EXTRACT MAXIMUM
LEVELS OF LABOR FROM ENSLAVED
PEOPLE AND THE RAMPANT TRADITION
AMONG SOUTHERN MEN, RICH AND
POOR, OF REPEATED RAPE AND
SEXUAL EXPLOITATION OF BLACK
WOMEN WILL BE A SHOCK TO THE
SENSES OF ANY DEFENDER OF THE
ARISTOCRATIC OLD SOUTH.
THANKS FOR BEING HERE.
THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
YOU'VE WRITTEN A REALLY
DISTURBING ON A LOT OF LEVELS,
BOOK, AND A VERY IMPORTANT ONE.
INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH, IT IS NOT
OFTEN THAT A VERY NEGATIVE
REVIEW OF A BOOK TURNS OUT TO BE
THE BEST THING THAT CAN HAPPEN
TO IT, BUT ARGUABLY THAT IS WHAT
HAS HAPPENED WITH YOU.
AFTER YOUR BOOK CAME OUT, HE
RECEIVED A VERY HARSH REVIEW IN
THE ECONOMIST MAGAZINE, AND THAT
TURNED OUT TO BE A GOOD THING.
YOUR BOOK IS ABOUT THE
CONNECTIONS BETWEEN SLAVERY AND
AMERICAN CAPITALISM.
BUT IN THE END, THE ECONOMIST
WITHDREW THE REVIEW BECAUSE OF
THE REACTIONS BY SCHOLARS AND
OTHERS, EXPERTS ON THIS, AND
THEN APOLOGIZED.
I THINK THE OPERATIVE LINE THAT
WAS THE PROBLEM WAS THAT SLAVE
OWNERS SURELY HAD A VESTED
INTEREST IN KEEPING THEIR HANDS,
WORKERS EVER FITTER AND STRONGER
TO PICK MORE COTTON, THEY
PROTECTED THEM AND THEN HE SAYS,
MR. BAPTIST HAS NOT WRITTEN IN
OBJECTIVE HISTORY OF SLAVERY
FALLOFF DISH.
THIS IS NOT HISTORY, IT IS
ADVOCACY.
THE PROBLEM WITH THE REVIEW
WAS THAT IT WAS SO HAM-HANDED.
IT WAS PRETTY DISMISSIVE OF THE
TESTIMONY OF FORMERLY ENSLAVED
AFRICAN-AMERICANS AND SUGGESTED
THAT BECAUSE OF THE AMOUNT OF
PROFIT THAT WAS DERIVED FROM THE
EXPORTATION OF ENSLAVED PEOPLE,
BECAUSE OF THE WAY THEY
REPRESENTED WEALTH THAT
THEREFORE, IN FACT, THE SORTS OF
TORTURE, THE SORTS OF ASSAULTS
THAT SURVIVORS REMEMBERED AND
RECALLED AND OBSERVERS ALSO
RECALLED THAT THESE SIMPLY
WOULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED.
AND THIS WAS A BLANKET STATEMENT
THAT REALLY DENIED THE VERACITY
OF WHAT SURVIVORS ACTUALLY HAD
ACTUALLY REPORTED.
SO THE REVIEW OFFENDED A LOT
OF PEOPLE AND SEEMED UNIFORMED
, BUT WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THE
SUBSTANCE OF THAT LAST LINE?
I MEAN, THERE IS A SUGGESTION
THERE THAT SOMEHOW IS IMPOSSIBLE
THAT VIRTUALLY ALL OF THE BLACK
PEOPLE IN THIS STORY WERE
VICTIMS AND THAT VIRTUALLY ALL
OF THE WHITE PEOPLE WERE
VILLAINS.
IS THAT IMPOSSIBLE?
WELL, I THINK ONE OF THE
INTERESTING THING THAT CAME OUT
OF THE PUBLIC DISCUSSION IN
PARTICULAR ON SOCIAL MEDIA,
WHERE OF COURSE, A WHOLE HASH
TAG WAS CREATED, ECONOMIST BOOK
REVIEWS, WAS THAT, OBVIOUSLY,
ENSLAVEMENT VICTIMIZES THE
PEOPLE WHO ARE ITS VICTIMS OF
ENSLAVED PEOPLE IN VICTIMIZES
AND EXPLOITS THEM.
SO JUST ADJUST OTHERWISE, AS THE
REVIEWER SEEMED TO BE DOING, WAS
ABSURD ON THE FACE OF IT.
I WANT TO SAY SOMETHING ABOUT
VILLAINS.
I DON'T THINK MY BOOK ARGUES
THAT ALL WHITE PEOPLE WERE
VILLAINS.
THERE ARE CERTAINLY VILLAINS IN
THE BOOK AND THERE ARE PEOPLE
WHO ARE PARTICULARLY CONSCIOUS
ABOUT WHAT THEY ARE DOING,
PEOPLE WHO ARE PARTICULARLY
SADISTIC AS YOU SUGGESTED.
, AND YOU'LL FIND THOSE IN EVERY
HUMAN SOCIETY.
AND WHAT, IN FACT, THE BOOK
ARGUES, IS THAT IT WAS THE
SYSTEM THAT CREATED THE ABILITY
FOR ORDINARY PEOPLE TO
PARTICIPATE IN THESE SADISTIC,
WHAT WE WOULD CALL SADISTIC
BEHAVIORS, AND TO SEE THEM AS
PART OF THE NORMAL COURSE OF
BUSINESS.
AND THAT I THINK, IS SOMETHING
THAT'S ACTUALLY HARDER TO FACE
AND HARDER TO LOOK AT THAN A
SYSTEM WHERE WE CAN IDENTIFY
SOME SPECIFIC VILLAINS AND SAY
, OK THESE PEOPLE ARE THE
, PROBLEM.
IT IS THE BANALITY OF THE
VILLAINY, IF YOU WILL THAT IS SO
, SIGNIFICANT.
LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT, THE
CENTRALITY OF SLAVERY TO
AMERICA'S DEVELOPMENT AS A
NATION AND WHAT YOU ARE SAYING
IS IT WAS DIFFERENT THAN HAS
BEEN GENERALLY UNDERSTOOD.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?
GENERALLY, WE ASSUME
PARTICULARLY IN HISTORY, BUT
EVEN RECENTLY, WE HAVE SEEN
SLAVERY AS ESSENTIALLY A
NONPROFITABLE SYSTEM.
EVEN WHERE INDIVIDUAL OWNERS
WERE ABLE TO EXTRACT PROFIT, FOR
WHATEVER REASON, AS A WHOLE, THE
SYSTEM ITSELF WAS UNPROFITABLE.
IT WAS NOT ECONOMICALLY VIABLE
FOR THE LONG TERM.
IT WAS NOT A SIGNIFICANT
CONTRIBUTOR TO AMERICAN ECONOMIC
GROWTH.
THE SHORTHAND OF THAT WAS,
AND I LEARNED THIS AS A LITTLE
BOY IN SCHOOL IN MISSISSIPPI IN
THE 1970'S, WAS THAT THE NORTH
WAS THE PLACE THAT WAS
INDUSTRIALIZING IN THE NORTH WAS
THE PLACE THAT WAS BECOMING
MODERN AND THIS IS WHY THEY
WOULD WIN THE CIVIL WAR, AND THE
SOUTH WAS KIND OF DECAYING
AGRICULTURAL WORLD AND PROBABLY
SLAVERY WAS GOING TO EVAPORATE
FROM THE FACE OF THE EARTH
EVENTUALLY, IT WAS SORT OF
WINDING DOWN.
PEOPLE LIKE GEORGE WASHINGTON
AND THOMAS JEFFERSON HAD BEEN
FRUSTRATED BY THE BURDENS OF
HAVING TO HAVE ALL THE SLAVES AT
THE END OF THEIR LIVES.
I MEAN, THAT WAS THE PICTURE --
THERE WAS REALLY NO SENSE OF
CONNECTION BETWEEN THE
INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION AND THE
USE OF SLAVES IN OUR CULTURE IN
THE SOUTH.
WHAT I ARGUE AND WHAT OTHER
HISTORIANS ARE WRITING NOW ARE
ALSO ARGUING IS THAT SOUTHERN
SLAVERY IN THE 19TH CENTURY IS
BOTH MODERNIZING THOMAS SO IT IS
CRUCIAL TO THE OVERALL
DEVELOPING OF THE AMERICAN
ECONOMY, THE AMERICAN INDUSTRIAL
ECONOMY, AND IT IS ALSO MODERN.
IT'S INHERENTLY LIKE THE NORTH
IN CERTAIN WAYS.
NOT EXACTLY THE SAME.
THEY'RE NOT IDENTICAL TWINS, BUT
THEY ARE VERY CLOSELY RELATED.
THEY SHARE A STRONG FAMILY
RESEMBLANCE.
PARTICULARLY, IN THE WAY
PRODUCTIVITY GETS MORE AND MORE
-- IT INCREASES OVER TIME.
SLAVE LABOR BECOMES MORE AND
MORE EFFICIENT FROM 1800 TO
1860, PARTICULARLY IN THE
PRODUCTION OF COTTON, WHICH IS
THE MOST IMPORTANT COMMODITY IN
THE WORLD MARKET AT THAT TIME.
IT IS THE OIL OF THE FIRST 50,
60, 70 YEARS OF THE INDUSTRIAL
REVOLUTION.
YOU MAP OUT IN THE BOOK HOW
THE TIME OF THE REVOLUTION IN
THE FIRST YEARS OF THE REPUBLIC,
THAT MOST OF THE ENSLAVED PEOPLE
IN NORTH AMERICA, LEAVING ASIDE
THAT THERE ARE ACTUALLY LARGER
NUMBERS OF AFRICAN PEOPLE BEING
TAKEN TO THE CARIBBEAN AND SOUTH
AMERICA, NONETHELESS, THAT IS
CONNECTED IN THIS AS WELL, BUT
MOST OF THE ENSLAVED PEOPLE IN
AMERICA ARE IN THE MID-ATLANTIC,
MARYLAND AND VIRGINIA AND NORTH
CAROLINA, THE TOBACCO PLANTATION
WORLD OF THE FOUNDERS.
BUT AS WEEK IT INTO THE LATE
1700S IN THE BEGINNING OF THE
19TH CENTURY, THERE ARE THESE
FAST TERRITORIES TO THE WEST
THAT ARE WILDERNESS.
AND WE FORGET THAT SOMETIMES.
WE THINK GOING WEST INTO THE
WILDERNESS WAS GOING OUT TO THE
WAY OUT WEST, THE WILD WILD
WEST, BUT REALLY WAS GOING TO
SOUTH CAROLINA AND GEORGIA AND
THE INTERIOR OF ALL THESE
COASTAL STATES.
AND THERE'S A GREAT STRUGGLE
OVER WHO WAS GOING TO CONTROL
ALL OF THIS LAND, HOW IT WAS
GOING TO BE DIVIDED AMONG
PEOPLE, COULD IT EVEN BE
SETTLED?
YOU SAY SOMEWHERE IN THE BOOK,
65 MILLION ACRES THAT IS ALABAMA
AND MISSISSIPPI, BUT
ESSENTIALLY, EXCEPT FOR RIGHT ON
WHERE THE WATER IS OFF THE GULF
COAST, NO WAY PEOPLE THERE UNTIL
WELL INTO THE 19TH CENTURY.
AND SUDDENLY, THIS IS OPEN AND
IN THIS INCREDIBLY SHORT TIME,
THIS WILDERNESS OF GIANT TREES
AND UNTOLD SOIL IS MADE INTO
SOMETHING OF AN AGRICULTURAL
EMPIRE.
HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN?
FIRST OF ALL, BECAUSE OF
GOVERNMENT POLICY.
I MEAN, THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
PUTS ITS SHOULDER BEHIND THE
WHEEL OF TAKING THIS TERRITORY
FROM OTHER PEOPLE WHO CLAIM IT,
NATIVE AMERICANS, OTHER EUROPEAN
EMPIRES, AND HANDING IT OVER TO
HIS CITIZENS.
ENSLAVERS FROM THE SOUTH,
ALTHOUGH, THERE ARE PLENTY OF
NORTHERNERS WHO COME DOWN AND
BECOME ENTREPRENEURS AS WELL.
THAT IS ONE THING WE CAN'T LOSE
TRACK UP.
THERE'S A GREAT OF A POLICY THAT
HAPPENS IN WASHINGTON HAPPENS AT
STAKE CAPITALS THAT IS A BIG
PART OF THIS PROCESS.
BUT ALSO, IT HAPPENS BECAUSE
ENSLAVERS ARE ABLE TO MARCH
HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE
AND SLAVE PEOPLE FROM VIRGINIA
AND MARYLAND AND NORTH CAROLINA
AND OTHER STATES AS WELL, DOWN
TO THIS TERRITORY AND DRIVE THEM
TO WORK CLEARING IT AND PICKING
THE COTTON THAT COMES FROM THAT
TERRITORY.
WE FINALLY CAN'T FORGET THE ROLE
OF THE WORLD MARKET AND THIS.
THERE'S A WORLD MARKET FOR RAW
COTTON.
IT DEMANDS MORE AND MORE COTTON.
ENSLAVERS, WITH THEIR ABILITY TO
CONTINUALLY INCREASE THE
EFFICIENCY OF PRODUCTION THROUGH
MEASURED, CALIBRATED TORTURE,
ULTIMATELY, THEY ARE ABLE TO
UNDERPRICE EVERY OTHER PRODUCER,
SAID A PRODUCERS OF COTTON IN
THE WORLD.
SO THE WORLD MARKET RESPONSE.
THEY BY THIS COTTON.
THEY FLED CREDIT INTO THE HANDS,
INTO THE POCKETS OF THESE
FRONTIER ENTREPRENEURS, WHO THEN
BUY MORE SLAVES, WHO CUT DOWN
MORE TREES AND PLAY MORE COTTON
AND SO ON.
THAT IS HOW TO HAPPEN SO
QUICKLY.
IT IS REALLY REMARKABLE IN HUMAN
HISTORY FOR NUMBER --
AGRICULTURAL FRONTIER TO BE
SETTLED SO QUICKLY.
AND THOSE WHO HAVE ACCESS OF THE
ONCE YOU BEGIN TO COMMITMENT
WEALTH IN WAYS THAT STILL HAVE
AN EFFECT ON AMERICAN SOCIETY
TODAY.
THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS
HEAVILY INVOLVED IN THAT
BUSINESS.
AND FINANCES THE SETTLERS WHO
ARE MOVING ON TO THAT LAND.
IT LENDS THE MONEY SO THEY CAN
BUY MORE AND MORE MONEY.
IT IS NOT JUST A BUNCH OF
GREAT GUYS HEADING OUT INTO THE
WOODS AND CARVING OUT THEIR
PIECE OF AMERICA AND THE
AMERICAN DREAM AND BEING
EXCEPTIONAL.
IT'S A MUCH MORE ORGANIZED THING
THAT IS TO BUY GOVERNMENT AND BY
SOCIETY.
BUT IT IS THE WAY THIS FRONTIER
WAS SO RADICALLY TRANSFORMED SO
FAST.
IN THE MIDST OF ALL THAT, THERE
ARE NOT ENOUGH FREE AMERICANS TO
ACTUALLY CLEAR ALL OF THAT LAND
IN THE SPAN OF TIME THAT IT
HAPPENS.
SO IN 1800, WHEN THOMAS
JEFFERSON IS ELECTED PRESIDENT,
HOW MANY ENSLAVED PEOPLE ARE
THERE IN AMERICA, ROUGHLY?
ROUGHLY THERE ARE ABOUT ONE
MILLION.
ABOUT 800,000 AT THE END OF THE
REVOLUTION.
ACTUALLY, THE INTERNATIONAL
SLAVE TRADE CONTINUES UNTIL
1807.
AS THE COTTON ECONOMY IS
INCREASINGLY BOOMING, HE SEE A
BIG RUSH TO IMPORT MORE ENSLAVED
PEOPLE FROM AFRICA.
AND WE HAVE SOME TO BE --
DISPUTE AS TO HOW MANY PEOPLE
THEY BRING IN, BUT IT LOOKS LIKE
BETWEEN 100,000 TO 200,000 MORE
JUST IN THAT TIME ALONE, AND
PRIMARILY INTO SOUTH CAROLINA,
ACTUALLY, WHICH IS THE EPICENTER
OF THE COTTON REVOLUTION.
BUT THERE IS ABOUT ONE MILLION
MORE OR LESS IN 1800.
FAX IT OVER THIS TIME FROM THEN
UNTIL THE 1830'S, 1840'S, YOU
END UP WITH A LARGER NUMBER THAN
THAT.
AT SOME POINT ALONG THE WAY OVER
THE COURSE OF THIS TIME, HOW
MANY ENSLAVED AFRICAN-AMERICANS
WHO HAVE BEEN IN THE
MID-ATLANTIC OR SOUTH CAROLINA
AND OF BEING FORCIBLY MOVED FROM
THE WORLD OF THOMAS JEFFERSON
AND GEORGE WASHINGTON INTO THIS
DIFFERENT WILDERNESS, DIFFERENT
KIND OF SLAVERY?
MORE THAN ONE MILLION.
THAT IS OUR BEST ESTIMATE.
WE DON'T KNOW HOW MANY MORE.
PROBABLY AT LEAST HALF WERE
MOVED BY SLAVE TRADERS.
THE MORE THAN A MILLION OVERALL.
2 BILLION ARE LIVING IN THE
COTTON COUNTRY -- 2 MILLION
LIVING IN THE CON COUNTRY.
ONE MILLION HAVE BECOME 2
MILLION BY THAT POINT IN TIME
OVER THE COURSE OF 60 YEARS.
YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT A
MASSIVE DISLOCATION OF
INDIVIDUALS.
YOU DESCRIBE IN THE BOOK, THIS
ONE MILLION PEOPLE WHO ARE SORT
OF RIPPED OUT OF THAT VERSION OF
SLAVERY AND SENT OFTEN TO THIS
WILDERNESS FROM WHICH NO ONE
EVER COMES BACK, NO ONE EVER IS
HEARD FROM AGAIN, FOR THE MOST
PART, BY THESE FAMILIES COME
INTO KIND OF BRUTALITY AND
MISTREATMENT THAT IS FAR BEYOND
WHAT WAS TYPICALLY HAPPENING
WHEN THEY LIVED IN THESE PLACES
BACK ON THE COAST.
RIGHT.
WHAT HAD HAPPENED OVER THE
COURSE OF THE 1700S, OF COURSE,
WAS THAT AS AFRICANS MERIT EACH
OTHER AND HAD KIDS, AS THE KIDS
BECAME AFRICAN-AMERICANS AND
GROW UP AND RAISE THEIR OWN
FAMILIES, AND AS THOSE FAMILIES
ARE SOMETIMES SPLIT BY DIVISIONS
AT THE TIME OF INHERITANCE, BUT
USUALLY DON'T MOVE SO FAR WAY
FROM EACH OTHER -- WE HAVE THIS
RICH DEVELOPING OF KINSHIP
NETWORKS, CULTURAL TIES,
INSTITUTIONS THAT MIGHT BE
INVISIBLE TO WHITE PEOPLE, BUT
WHICH EXIST ALL THE SAME.
THAT IS REPEATEDLY BROKEN UP IN
THE COURSE OF THIS MIGRATION
THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.
I MEAN, ONE INDICATION OR ONE
EXAMPLE, JUST MAKE THIS A LITTLE
MORE CONCRETE, I WAS ABLE TO,
FOR 1829-18 31, TRACK EVERY
ENSLAVED PERSON WHO WAS SOLD IN
NEW ORLEANS.
THIS IS THE HUB OF THE DOMESTIC
SLAVE TRADE IN THE DEEP SOUTH,
THIS WAS THE EPICENTER OF IT.
AND OUT OF THOSE PEOPLE, ABOUT
100 OF THEM CAME FROM ONE COUNTY
IN MARYLAND -- CAN'T COUNTY.
I WENT BACK, AND I LOOKED A
LITTLE MORE CLOSELY AT CAN'T
COUNTY.
VIRTUALLY, ALL OF THESE PEOPLE
WHO WERE SOLD WERE BETWEEN AGES
14 TO 25.
I DID A LITTLE BIT OF BACK OF
THE ENVELOPE CALCULATING, POKING
AROUND IN THE SENSES, LITTLE BIT
MORE CALCULATING AFTER THAT.
AND ALTHOUGH IT'S HARD TO BE
PRECISE, GIVEN THE WAY THE
SENSES WORKED IN THOSE DAYS, IT
LOOKS LIKE THERE WERE ABOUT 1000
YOUNG PEOPLE ENSLAVED IN KENT
COUNTY BETWEEN 14 AND 25.
IN TWO YEARS, 100 OF THEM WERE
SOLD.
IN TWO YEARS, 100 PEOPLE WERE
TAKEN OUT OF FAMILIES AND
EXTENDED FAMILIES, PEOPLE WERE
JUST COMING INTO ADULTHOOD, --
ONE CAN IMAGINE THE HOPES THAT
HE IS HAD FOR THEM.
THEIR YOUNGER SIBLINGS, ETC.,
THEIR FRIENDS.
AND THEY ARE GONE.
MOST OF THEM ARE SCATTERED TO
DIFFERENT OWNERS IN LOUISIANA
AND MISSISSIPPI, AND HAVE TO GO
THROUGH THEIR OWN PROCESS OF
FIGURING OUT HOW TO SURVIVE, WHO
TO TRUST, WHETHER OR NOT THEY'RE
GOING TO BE ABLE TO DO THE
INCREASINGLY BRUTAL KIND OF WORK
THEY HAVE TO DO, WHETHER THEY
WILL BE A LITTLE TO FAMILY AND
WHETHER THEY EVEN WANT TO DOUBLE
TO FAMILY UNDER THE
CIRCUMSTANCES.
IT'S LIKE A REPLICATION OF THE
MIDDLE PASSAGE FROM AFRICA TO
THE UNITED STATES AND TO THE
AMERICAS, MORE GENERALLY.
BUT IT HAPPENED.
IT IS REMEMBERED BY THESE
INDIVIDUALS, AND THEN IT HAPPENS
TO THEM IN THEIR OWN LIFETIMES.
THIS REMEMBERED EVENT.
HOW DID THAT WORK?
HOW TO BE DOMESTIC SLAVE TRADE
OPERATE?
BUT THE 1820'S AND 1830'S, IT
HAS EVOLVED TO WHERE IT LOOKS
LIKE A VERY MODERN BUSINESS.
YOU HAVE FIRMS, WHO OFTEN HAVE
PRINCIPALS OPERATING ON BOTH
ENDS OF THE PIPELINE, AS IT
WERE, IN THE UPPER SOUTH AND THE
LOWER SOUTH.
SO FOR INSTANCE, THE FRANKLIN
ARMFIELD AND BALLACK FIRM, WHICH
IS PROBABLY THE BIGGEST ONE
AROUND 1830, HAS ONE OF ITS
BASES IN THE NORTHERN
VIRGINIA/WASHINGTON, D.C. AREA,
ONE OF ITS BASES IN RICHMOND,
AND THEN ALSO A HUB IN NEW
ORLEANS.
THE PEOPLE WHO WORKED AT THE
OFFICES IN RICHMOND AND
WASHINGTON AND ALEXANDRIA, WOULD
FAN OUT TO COUNTY COURT HOUSES.
AND THEY WOULD SET UP
ADVERTISEMENTS ON EVERY POST OR
PUT ADVERTISEMENTS IN LOCAL
PAPER -- IF THERE WAS ONE
CALLED, "CASH PAID FOR NEGROES,"
AND IT WOULD TYPICALLY HAVE A
GRADING SYSTEM.
FOR WHICH THEY WOULD PAY
ESTABLISHED PRICES OR THE GOING
PRICES.
AND IT WOULD COLLECT PEOPLE
TOGETHER AND HOLD THEM IN WHAT
WAS A JAIL, ESSENTIALLY, AND
THEN THEY WOULD CHAIN THEM.
THEY WOULD EITHER MARCH THEM ON
BOARD A SHIP WAR OVER LAND TO
THE SOUTH.
AND IF YOU ARE OPERATING OUT OF
A PLACE CLOSE TO THE MISSISSIPPI
LIKE OR TO ALABAMA LIKE CENTRAL
NORTH CAROLINA, YOU MIGHT BE
MORE LIKELY TO MARCH THEM.
IF YOU ARE OPERATING OUT OF A
MAJOR PORT, THEN HE WOULD BE
MORE LIKELY TO PUT THEM ON BOARD
A SHIP.
THE FRANKLIN A BALLAD FROM
ACTUALLY OWNED ITS OWN SHIPS,
WHICH TRAVELED IN REGULAR
ROTATION TO NEW ORLEANS FOR
TAKEN SEVERAL THOUSAND PEOPLE
YEAR DOWN THERE.
DOWN AT THE OTHER END OF THE
TRADE, YOU WOULD SEE CERTAIN
DISTRICTS IN NEW ORLEANS ARE
RIGHT OUTSIDE OF MATCHES --
NACHES, BASICALLY, CONFLICT OF
JAILS.
HIS SUMMIT HE WANTED TO BUY AN
ENSLAVED PERSON OR SEVERAL
ENSLAVED PEOPLE, THEY WOULD
TRAVEL THERE.
THEY WOULD INSPECT THE PEOPLE.
THEY WOULD LINE UP THEIR
FINANCING.
THEY WOULD USUALLY WORK WITH ONE
OF THE LOCAL BANKS -- THE LOCAL
BANK WOULD WRITE, ESSENTIALLY, A
CHECK TO ISAAC FRANKLIN, WHO
WOULD THEN SEND IT BACK UP TO
PHILADELPHIA ARE ONE OF THESE
OTHER SORT OF CLEARINGHOUSES OF
THE ECONOMY.
THE WHOLE THING DEPENDED ON A
STEADY FLOW OF CREDIT, WHICH
LINKED A VERY CLOSELY TO THE
INTERNATIONAL ECONOMY.
IN A DEPENDED ON THESE
INTERMEDIARIES, THESE SLAVE
TRADERS WHO WERE CRUCIAL PART OF
THE PROCESS.
IT SOUNDS LIKE THE AUTO
INDUSTRY, SORT OF NEW CARS AND
HOW THEIR DISTRICT DID AND USED
CAR DEALERS WHY NOT AND
SOLICITING THE PURCHASE OF USED
CARS AND SELLING THEM TO SOME
BUT HE ALSO.
I MEAN, IT IS THAT KIND OF
THING.
IT SOUNDS A LITTLE FINANCIAL AND
CLINICAL.
THAT IS NOT WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE
ON THE GROUND.
NO, IT DID LOOK LIKE THAT ON
THE GROUND.
IF YOU ARE A PERSON GOING
THROUGH THIS, LIKE CHARLES BALL,
WHO SOLD INTO SLAVE TRADE FROM
EHRLICH AND 1805 AND MARCHED
DOWN TO SOUTH CAROLINA AND LATER
IN GEORGIA.
IT WAS A VIOLENT AND HORRIFIC
EXPERIENCE, PARTICULARLY FOR
YOUNG MEN.
ESPECIALLY, IF THEY HAD
SOMETHING TO FIGHT FOR.
THERE WAS A GREAT TILL OF DANGER
AT THE MOMENT OF PURCHASE FOR
THE WHITES WHO WERE INVOLVED.
SO THEY WERE WORRIED THAT THESE
YOUNG MEN MY FIGHT BACK, SO THEY
WOULD BRING A BUNCH OF GUYS WITH
THEM AND IT WOULD TRY TO TAKE
THE INDIVIDUAL WHO IS BEING SOLD
BY SURPRISE.
THE DEAL HAD BEEN MADE SOMEWHERE
ELSE, BUT FOR INSTANCE, CHARLES
BALL IS SENT ON A NICE SPRING
DAY TO TAKE A WAGON DOWN TO A
LITTLE VILLAGE BY HIS OWNER.
HE UNLOADS THE WAGON.
HE TURNS AROUND AND HE'S
SURROUNDED BY A GROUP OF GUYS
WHO TIE THEM UP.
AND THEN YOU WOULD BE MARCHED TO
WHERE THE CALL FOR WAS BEING
HELD, THE GROUP OF PEOPLE WERE
GOING TO BE MARCHED DOWN SOUTH
TO SOUTH CAROLINA, IN BALL'S
CASE, AND IF YOU WERE A MAN, YOU
WOULD BE LOCKED INTO THE COFFLE.
THIS TYPICALLY WOULD MEAN YOU'RE
HANDCUFFED AND THERE WOULD BE A
CHAIN THAT WAS RUN THROUGH A
RING IN AN IRON COLLAR AROUND
YOUR NECK, AND YOU WOULD BE
HANDCUFFED -- OFTEN TO ANOTHER
INDIVIDUAL, SO THERE WOULD BE 15
OR 20 PAIRS OF MEN WHO WITHIN
ALL BE ON ONE CHAIN AND FORCED
TO MARCH, SOMETIMES, 700 OR 1000
MILES TOGETHER.
WOMEN WERE LESS LIKELY TO BE
HANDCUFFED, BUT SOMETIMES THEY
WERE AS WELL.
AND YOU CAN IMAGINE BEING
MARCHED 700 MILES FOR 50 DAYS,
CHAINED TO 49 OTHER MEN.
THIS IS A HORRIFIC, DEPRESSING,
DISPIRITING KIND OF EXPERIENCE.
AND YOU CAN IMAGINE THE THINGS
-- THE BRUTALITIES PEOPLE MAY
HAVE AMPLY DID ON EACH OTHER
ACCIDENTALLY OR INTENTIONALLY,
BUT YOU GOT ALSO IMAGINE THE
WAYS IN WHICH THEY TRY TO HELP
EACH OTHER SURVIVE, BECAUSE THAT
WAS ALL THEY HAD IN A
PARTICULARLY HORRIFIC MOMENT.
AND THEN AT THE END OF THAT, YOU
WOULD BE PUT INTO ANOTHER JAIL.
YOU WOULD BE GIVEN THE
OPPORTUNITY TO CLEAN UP, SOME
NEW CLOTHES, SOMETIMES YOU WOULD
EVENTUALLY BE PARADED IN A SUIT
WITH A NICE STOVEPIPE HAT.
BUT BEFORE THAT, YOU WOULD ALSO
BEGIN IN THE OPPORTUNITY TO EAT
BECAUSE YOU WOULD HAVE LOST A
LOT OF WEIGHT IN THIS PROCESS.
YOU WOULD BE WED -- FED WITH
RICH FOODS FOR A COUPLE OF WEEKS
AND THEN PUT ON SALE.
THESE JAILS THEMSELVES ARE
HORRIBLE PLACES.
THERE ARE LOTS OF PLACES CROWDED
TOGETHER.
IF ANYBODY IS SICK, EVERYBODY
ELSE IS ALSO GOING TO GET SICK.
THERE IS THE JAIL AND THERE'S
THE SHOW ROOM, RIGHT?
THE PROCESS OF GOING THROUGH ALL
OF THAT WAS TO MANIC, AND IN THE
PROCESS OF BEING BOUGHT BY SOME
OF THE ELSE HAD IT SOME KIND OF
TRAUMAS AS WELL.
AND WHEN YOU READ THE BOOK,
IT'S EVEN MORE TERRIBLE.
THE NITTY-GRITTY DETAILS AS YOU
DESCRIBE THEM AND AS YOU TRY TO
GO INTO THE MINDS, TO SOME
DEGREE, THE PEOPLE WHO ARE
HAVING THIS HAPPEN TO THEM AND
HOW THIS WASN'T JUST ABOUT
PHYSICALLY RESTRAINING PEOPLE
AND KEEPING THEM FROM RUNNING
AWAY OR FIGHTING, BUT A MESSAGE
OF THE NECESSITY OF SUBMISSION.
AND BY THE TIME THAT 700 MILE
MARCHES OVER, THAT SOMETHING HAS
BEEN VERY CLEARLY ABSORBED, THAT
THERE IS TO ESCAPE FROM THIS.
THERE'S NO ESCAPE FROM GEORGIA.
THERE'S NO GOING BACK.
DON'T THINK ABOUT IT.
AT THE SAME TIME, YET THE
CONTINUAL ATTEMPT TO GET AWAY
LOST UP AND OF COURSE, IF YOU
ARE MARCHED 700 MILES FURTHER
INTO SLAVERY, THAT DOES, IN
REALITY, THEY CAN VIRTUALLY
IMPOSSIBLE.
THERE PROBABLY ONLY A FEW PEOPLE
EVER YOUR THAT MAKE IT OUT OF
THE COTTON COUNTRY INTO THE
STATE IN THE NORTH, WHICH ARE
INCREASINGLY FREE STATES.
IN SOME CASES, THEY'RE ABLE TO
HIDE ON CONSCIENCE AND TO
LIVERPOOL OR SOMETHING LIKE
THAT.
THE REASON WE KNOW WITH EXPENSES
LIKE IS BECAUSE SOME DID MANAGE
TO DO IT.
LOTS OF PEOPLE TRIED, SOMETIMES
REPEATEDLY.
WE KNOW THIS FROM RUNAWAY ADS
PLACED IN SOUTHERN NEWSPAPERS.
AND SOME PEOPLE FINALLY MADE IT,
LIKE CHARLES BALL HIMSELF, WHO
ACTUALLY SKIPS TWICE.
IN HIS FIRST ESCAPE, HE CROSSES
SOUTH CAROLINA, NORTH CAROLINA,
AND VIRGINIA BY NIGHT IN THE
FALL AND WINTER, AND FINALLY
GETS BACK TO FIND HIS FAMILY IS
STILL ALIVE IN MARYLAND.
THAT'S AN UNUSUAL EXPERIENCE,
BUT SIGNIFICANT.
WITHOUT THAT EXPERIENCE, WE
WOULDN'T HAVE THE TESTIMONY THAT
PEOPLE LIKE PAUL DO WANT TO GIVE
.
SOME OF THEM PUBLISH ACCOUNTS,
MUCH LIKE SOLOMON NORTHUP DID.
THE ABOLITIONIST MOVEMENT, AS WE
UNDERSTAND, SURLY, IT WOULD NOT
HAVE HAPPENED.
IT WOULD HAVE BEEN RUN BY WHITES
FOR WHITES.
IT WOULD HAVE FOCUSED ON
EXPORTING FREE AFRICAN-AMERICANS
FROM THE UNITED STATES.
IT WOULD'VE BEEN MUCH MORE
LIMITED.
AT THE TESTIMONY OF FUGITIVES
WHO ESCAPED ON THE TESTIMONY
ABOUT WHAT IS GOING ON, HOW
HORRIFIC THE DOMESTIC SLAVE
TRADE IS, HOW DISRUPTIVE IT IS,
AND HOW CRITICAL IT IS IN A
COUNTRY THAT CALLS ITSELF
CHRISTIAN AND IS INCREASINGLY
PRAISING THE SANCTITY OF THE
FAMILY AND SO ON -- FINALLY,
WHAT IS GOING ON IN THE CHONDRAL
TO THE SOUTH.
ALL OF THIS TESTIMONY CONVERTS
IF YOU REALLY SIGNIFICANT
INDIVIDUALS WHO JOIN WITH BLACK
ABOLITIONIST TO BUILD THIS
SMALL, BUT REALLY IMPORTANT
MOVEMENT.
IT WOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED
WITHOUT THE RESISTANCE OF
GETTING AWAY AND TELLING ONE
STORY.
AND YOU MAKE THE POINT FOR A
PERSUASIVELY AND MATHEMATICALLY
OF JUST HOW IMPORTANT THE
INDUSTRY OF SLAVERY WAS TO THE
NORTH AND HOW MANY JOBS IN THE
NORTH AND HIM AND ECONOMIC
INTERESTS IN THE NORTH WERE ALSO
AS TIED TO SLAVERY AS THE PEOPLE
WHO OWNED SLAVES FROM THE SOUTH.
AND THAT IS A REALLY IMPORTANT
POINT.
BECAUSE OF THE CLASSIC
UNDERSTANDING THAT THIS WAS A
BAD THING IN THE SOUTH AND THE
NORTH WAS SEPARATE FROM IT.
YOU CARRY THAT OVER.
BUT THAT IS THE OTHER HALF OF
THE STORY, THUS THE TITLE, "THE
HALF THAT IS NEVER BEEN TOLD."
I THINK THE TITLE WORKS IN A
NUMBER OF WAYS, BUT THAT IS ONE
OF THE WAYS IN WHICH IT WORKS,
THE WAY IN WHICH SLAVERY HELPS
THE UNITED STATES TO MODERNIZE,
MAYBE IS EVEN ESSENTIAL FOR ITS
DEVELOPMENT AS AN ECONOMY, AS A
SOCIETY, AS A POLITY.
THAT IS ONE PART OF IT.
THE OTHER PART OF IT IS WHAT
ENSLAVED PEOPLE DO WITH THEIR
EXPERIENCE AND THE WAYS THEY
FIGURE OUT TO SURVIVE, HOW TO
SURVIVE.
THE WAYS THEY FIGURE OUT HOW TO
TELL THEIR STORY.
FIRST OF ALL, MOST IMPORTANT, TO
THEMSELVES AND LATER TO OTHER
PEOPLE AS WELL.
THAT IS ANOTHER WAY TO SAY,
HERE'S ANOTHER HALF OF THE
STORY.
IT'S OBVIOUS THIS IS A BOOK
THAT REALLY CHALLENGES THE
CLASSIC OLD SOUTH LOST CAUSE OR
VERSION OF EVENTS THAT IS BEEN
LARGELY DISCREDITED, THOUGH,
SURPRISING, HOW OFTEN PEOPLE
STILL Q BACK TO IT.
CLEARLY, THIS IS A CHALLENGE TO
THAT VERSION OF HISTORY AND EVEN
TO THE IMPROVING VERSION OF THAT
HISTORY THAT BEGAN TO BE WRITTEN
IN THE FIRST HALF OF THE 20TH
CENTURY.
BUT IT'S ALSO A SHOT ACROSS THE
BOW OF A LOT OF HISTORIANS WHO
ARE ALIVE TODAY, YOU KNOW.
YOU WRITE AT ONE POINT AND THE
INTRODUCTIONS, THE INSISTENCE
THAT ASSERTIVE RESISTANCE
UNDERMINED SLAVERY'S POWER.
YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT HISTORIANS
WHO HAVE FOCUSED IN RECENT YEARS
ON THE AGENCY OF
AFRICAN-AMERICANS IN THE
STRUGGLE, THE INDIVIDUAL
STRUGGLES OF AFRICAN-AMERICANS
AND HOW THAT IDEA THAT THIS LED
SOME TO BELIEVE THAT ENSLAVED
PEOPLE ACTUALLY MANAGED TO RUN
EVENT WHITES FROM SUCCESSFULLY
EXPLOITING THEIR LABOR.
AND YOU CHALLENGE THAT.
YOU SAY IN THE BOOK AS A
CHALLENGE TO THAT.
I BELIEVE YOUR IMPLICITLY
REFERRING TO STEPHEN HAHN, ANY
OF THE BOOK "A NATION UNDER OUR
FEET" THAT WON THE PULITZER
PRIZE IN 2004 IN THE BANKRUPT
PRIZE.
I DON'T KNEW YOU WERE
SPECIFICALLY SAYING THAT.
YOU ARE CHALLENGING -- BUT IF
YOU ARE, LET'S HAVE IT OUT.
[LAUGHTER]
YOU'RE NOT JUST CHALLENGING A
BUNCH OF OLD WHITE HISTORIANS OF
75 FOR 95 YEARS AGO, YOUR
CHALLENGING A REALLY SIGNIFICANT
BODY OF WHAT HAS BEEN VIEWED AS
VERY CONTEMPORARY, VERY MODERN,
THE MOST OPEN-MINDED, MAYBE,
HISTORY WRITTEN ABOUT ABOUT THIS
PERIOD OF TIME.
I DON'T THINK I'M CHALLENGING
STEPHEN HAHN.
IN FACT, I THINK IN THE BOOK
YOU'RE REFERRING TO, "A NATION
UNDER OUR FEET," I THINK HIS
PICTURE OF THE 1850'S IS WHAT
YOU WOULD EXPECT TO SEE IF YOU
BELIEVE THAT ENSLAVED PEOPLE WHO
WERE FORCED INTO THE COTTON
COUNTRY, WHO SURVIVED ECONOMIC
DISRUPTION, WHO SURVIVED
DISEASE, WHO SURVIVED VIOLENCE,
AND FOUND WAYS TO BUILD NEW
NETWORKS WITH EACH OTHER, I
THINK THAT -- I MEAN, THAT IS
WHAT I TALK ABOUT IN THE BOOK.
I THINK THAT IS WHAT HE
DESCRIBES THE BEGINNING OF HIS
BOOK WILL STOP SO IN FACT, I SEE
HIS BOOK IS PRETTY
INSPIRATIONAL.
ON THE OTHER HAND, I DEFINITELY
AGREE THAT THE BOOK IS A
CHALLENGE TO HISTORIANS WHO
UNDERSTATE THE AMOUNT OF
VIOLENCE AND WHITE CONTROL THAT
IS INHERENT TO THE SYSTEM OF
LABOR THAT DEVELOPS IN THE DEEP
SOUTH, PARTICULARLY, COTTON
PRODUCTION.
I THINK HISTORIANS HAVE NOT COME
UNTIL RECENT YEARS, TALKED
NEARLY ENOUGH ABOUT HOW THE
SYSTEM WORKED IN THE KINDS OF
EFFECTS IT HAD ON ENSLAVED
PEOPLE.
WE HAVE BEEN MUCH LESS LIKELY,
IRONICALLY, TO FOCUS ON COTTON
LABOR AND WE HAVE ON
UNDERSTANDING 18TH-CENTURY
TOBACCO LABOR OR 18TH-CENTURY
RICE LABOR AND THOSE KINDS OF
THINGS.
I'M NOT TOTALLY SURE WHY WE
HAVEN'T LOOKED AT IT.
I MEAN, I COULD MAKE SOME
GUESSES, BUT WE HAVEN'T FOCUSED
ON THAT SUFFICIENTLY IN THE LAST
50 OR 60 YEARS OF SLAVERY
HISTORIOGRAPHY.
I THINK MY BOOK ATTEMPTS TO DO
THAT.
WALTER JOHNSON HAS READ A BOOK
THAT DOES A VERY, VERY WELL.
SEND BECKERT AND HIS TWO HISTORY
OF CONTACTS ABOUT THAT AS WELL
AND THEIR OTHER PEOPLE AS WELL.
IS PART OF THE EXPLANATION
FOR THAT, THIS PATTERN IS SET
AND EVEN AFTER AMERICAN
HISTORIANS BEGAN TO LOOK MORE
CLINICALLY AND I JUST HOW
TERRIBLE SLAVERY WAS OR SOME OF
THESE ASPECTS, BUT EVEN AS THAT
WAS HAPPENING -- WHICH REALLY
DIDN'T BEGIN UNTIL THE 1940'S
AND 1950'S, BUT THAT SO MUCH OF
THAT HISTORY WAS DOMINATED BY
SOUTHERNERS AND PEOPLE LIKE
WOODWARD WHO STAR REALLY WRITING
ABOUT SLAVERY BUT THE AFTERMATH
OF SLAVERY.
BUT THE PRACTICE OF PROFESSIONAL
HISTORY IS SO DOMINATED IN THE
EARLY YEARS BY WHITE SOUTHERN
MEN WHO WERE NOT THAT FAR
REMOVED FROM THESE EVENTS AND
RELATED EVENTS TO THEM.
AND THERE IS AN ACCEPTANCE, EVEN
A NETWORK, OFTENTIMES WHILE JIM
CROW SOUTH IS TERRIBLE, BUT AN
IMPLICIT IF NOT EXPLICIT SENSE
THAT WELL, BUT COME IT WAS ALSO
SORT OF UNDERSTANDABLE.
THAT IS WHY SOME OF THOSE
FIGURES LIKE WOODWARD AT THE END
OF HIS LIFE BECOME SOMEWHAT OF A
RIGHT-WING REACTIONARY.
AS THAT PART OF THE STORY AS
WELL?
THAT EVEN SOME OF OUR HEROIC
HISTORIANS OF SLIGHTLY EARLIER
OR A WERE ALSO STUCK IN SOME
PATTERNS OF ASSUMPTIONS THAT GO
BACK TO THE TIME YOU'RE WRITING
ABOUT?
I THINK IF WOODWARD SOUNDED
RIGHT-WING FOR THE END OF HIS
LIFE, THINK WAS MOSTLY
BUSTED RADICALS AND PEOPLE
DISRUPTING HIS CLASSES.
BOOKS YOU KIND OF LOOK LIKE A
STUDENT RADICAL.
[LAUGHTER]
IF WE ARE GOING TO RUN DOWN
WOODWARD, I MAKE A VERY RADICAL.
HE IS ONE OF MY GREAT HEROES.
YOU KNOW, NOT PERFECT.
BUT MORE BROADLY, I THINK YOU'RE
ON TARGET, ABSOLUTELY, THAT
THERE WAS A SIGNIFICANT IMPACT
-- AND IMPACT WE'RE STILL
FINALLY CLEARING OUT THE LAST
VESTIGES OF IN CERTAIN WAYS BY
SIGNIFICANT IMPACT AID BY THE
DEFENDERS OF BOTH THE OLD AND
THE NEW SOUTH AND THE HISTORICAL
PROFESSION, AND MANY OF THEM
WERE, INDEED, WHITE SOUTHERN
MEN, AND THAT WAS OBVIOUSLY
SOMETHING -- I MEAN, THAT IS
WHAT WOODWARD IS PUSHING BACK SO
AGAINST IN CERTAIN WAYS.
THIS EARLY SOMETHING THAT MADE A
MASSIVE IMPACT ON HISTORICAL
PROFESSION.
BUT MORE BROADLY, THE
LONG-STANDING EXCEPTION THAT
SLAVERY WAS A PROFITABLE AS A
SYSTEM, THAT IT WAS INEFFICIENT
AS A SYSTEM IS DEEPLY EMBEDDED
IN THE ACCOUNT THAT WE ALL HAVE,
WHETHER WE ARE HISTORIANS WERE
OTHERS, OF CAPITALISM, AND WHAT
MAKES CAPITALISM WORK.
WE WANT TO BELIEVE THAT IT IS
ABOUT FREE CHOICE.
IT'S ABOUT WAGE LABOR THAT WE
CHOOSE OR OTHERS CHOOSE TO
PERFORM.
AND SO ADAM SMITH AND KARL MARX,
BOTH, I MEAN, THEY DID NOT AGREE
ON MUCH, BUT THEY BOTH AGREED
THAT FREE WAGE FACTORY LABOR WAS
MORE EFFICIENT THAN SLAVERY.
BUT IN FACT, IT APPEARS THAT
KIND SLAVERY SHARED A LOT OF
CHARACTERISTICS WITH WAGE LABOR
IN TERMS OF THE EFFICIENCY, AND
IN TERMS OF ITS ADAPTABILITY TO
INNOVATION, IN THIS WORKS IN ALL
CANS OF WAYS.
BUT MOST CENTRALLY, IN THE WAY
THAT IN SLAVERS USED MEASUREMENT
AND TORTURE TO INCREASE THE
NUMBER OF POUNDS OF COTTON THAT
ENSLAVED PEOPLE PICKED EVERY
DAY, INCREASING IT FOUR TIMES
OVER FROM 1800 TO 1860.
THAT IS ABSOLUTELY CRUCIAL TO
OUR MODERN WORLD.
I THINK WE PUT A LOT OF EFFORT
INTO SECURING THAT CENTRALITY.
TALKS YOU MENTIONED NORTHUP
SOLOMON A MINUTE AGO, THE AUTHOR
OF ONE OF THESE OTHER SLAVE
NARRATIVES, AND WAS THE BASIS OF
THE FILM "12 YEARS A SLAVE."
YOU ARE DESCRIBING ONE OF THE
MOST POWERFUL SCENES.
AT THE END OF THE DAY WERE THE
BEGINNING OF THE DAY, THE
ACCOUNTING OF ALL THE SLAVES ARE
BROUGHT INTO A BARN AND THE
OVERSEER GOES THROUGH HOW MUCH
AND HOW MANY POUNDS OF COTTON
THEY PICKED THE DAY BEFORE.
THAT IS IN EVERY SINGLE SLAVE
NARRATIVE, AT SLAVE NARRATIVE,
THAT IS PUBLISHED IN THE 19
CENTURY THAT COMES FROM --
WRITTEN BY PEOPLE WHO WERE IN
THE COTTON SOUTH, AS OPPOSED TO
THE TOBACCO SOUTH.
IT HAPPENS AGAIN AND AGAIN AND
AGAIN.
WE SEE WHITE OBSERVERS RECORDING
THAT.
WE HAVE ALL OF THESE THOUSANDS
AND THOUSANDS OF PAGES OF LEDGER
SHEETS AND PLANTERS RECORDS,
WHERE THEY'VE GOT SOLOMON
TUESDAY THE SECOND, 57 POUNDS,
OVER AND OVER.
HISTORIANS SIMPLY DIDN'T TALK
ABOUT IT UNTIL VERY, VERY
RECENTLY.
I WAS REALLY EXCITED, AND A
CERTAIN WAY, TO SEE THAT COME
OUT IN "12 YEARS A SLAVE,"
BECAUSE FROM MY PERSPECTIVE,
THAT WAS THE BEST HISTORICAL
DEPICTION OF THE ABSOLUTELY
CRUCIAL MOMENT --
LET'S NOT LEAVE OUT WITH THE
CONSEQUENCES WERE.
IF YOU HAD NOT PICKED AS MUCH OR
THE MATTERS POSTED, WHAT
HAPPENED TO THESE PEOPLE?
RIGHT, AS THE FILM DEPICTS IN
WE READ AGAIN AND AGAIN IN THESE
NARRATIVES, THOSE WHO CAME UP
SHORT OF THEIR QUOTA WOULD BE
WHIPPED.
WHAT IS ALSO WELL DEPICTED IN
THE FILM IS THE WAY IN WHICH
DIFFERENT PEOPLE HAVE DIFFERENT
QUOTAS.
THERE'S A DIFFERENT
UNDERSTANDING FOR EACH PERSON OF
WHAT THE CURRENT MAXIMUM IS.
THERE'S A CONSTANT PROCESS OF
SLOWLY PUSHING EVERYBODY'S
POTENTIAL MAXIMUM UPWARD.
THIS WAS THE WAY IN WHICH HIS
LABORS WERE ABLE TO EXTRACT
GREATER AND GREATER EFFICIENCY
OUT OF EVERY LABOR, POTENTIALLY,
AT THE TIME.
AND GET THEMSELVES INTO THIS
VERY REALLY TWISTED THE, CRUEL
KIND OF BALANCING ACT BETWEEN --
I THINK YOU DESCRIBE IN THE FILM
CAPTURES AND OTHER THINGS, THAT
USING THESE INCREDIBLY BRUTAL
PRACTICES -- AND YOU TALK ABOUT
WATERBOARDING AND TORTURE, I
MEAN, THIS WHOLE ARRAY OF
PHYSICAL INFLICTION ON FOLKS TO
MAKE THEM WORK HARDER.
AT THIS BALANCING ACT BETWEEN
HOW DO HURT PEOPLE ENOUGH TO
MAKE THEM PRODUCE MORE AND MORE
AND MORE, DAY AFTER DAY, MONTH
AFTER MONTH, BUT NOT KILLED
THEM.
TAKING PEOPLE RIGHT TO THE EDGE
OF PHYSICAL ENDURANCE, BECAUSE
YOU DON'T WANT TO ACTUALLY KILL
THIS INCREDIBLY VALUABLE ASSET.
FOR ME, THAT IS ONE OF THE MOST
PERVERSE DIMENSIONS OF ALL OF
THIS.
WE KNOW WHEN PEOPLE, LET'S
SAY, ACTIVATE OUTSIDE OF
THEMSELVES, THE SIDE WHERE ONE
IS BEING INCREDIBLY PHYSICALLY
CRUEL, THEY CAN GET CARRIED
AWAY.
AND IN THIS CASE, ONE OF THE
COMPLEX EMOTIONS COULD BE SADISM
OR COULD BE OTHER KINDS OF
THINGS THAT WE DON'T NECESSARILY
THINK OF AS RATIONAL BEHAVIORS,
BUT THEY WERE ALSO PART OF THE
SYSTEM.
THEY WERE PART OF THE DAILY LIFE
THAT ENSLAVED PEOPLE HAD TO
CALCULATE ABOUT, HAD A TRY TO
AVOID, HAD TO TRY TO SURVIVE.
AND MY SENSE IS THE DEEPER
AND DEEPER YOU GET INTO THE
WILDERNESS, AND THE MORE
ISOLATED THESE PLACES ARE, IN
THE FURTHER FROM CIVILIZATION
AND PERHAPS AMELIORATING
INFLUENCE OF JUST OTHER EYEBALLS
AROUND, THAT THINGS GET WORSE
AND WORSE.
I KNOW WE NEEDED TO THE
MISSISSIPPI DELTA, THE
PLANTATIONS IN THE 1850'S WHEN
YOU GO THROUGH THE RECORDS
THERE, THE SCALE OF BRUTALITY,
EVEN THE WAY THIS PLANTATIONS
WERE DESIGNED WITH NO PARTICULAR
INTEREST IN HAVING WOMEN OR
CHILDREN AROUND, THE PROCREATION
OF SLAVES IS A PART OF THE
BUSINESS.
AND THE CONDITIONS ARE SO HARSH,
THERE ARE THESE CALCULATIONS AND
THE LEDGERS THAT IF WE CAN GET
FIVE YEARS OUT OF A SLAVE BEFORE
THEY DIE IN THE FIELDS, THAT'S A
SUFFICIENT RETURN ON INVESTMENT.
IT'S ASTONISHINGLY CRUEL.
YEAH.
THERE'S AN EXAMPLE IN THE BOOK,
PAUL CAMERON, WHOSE NATIVE -- HE
SETS UP A SECESSION OF
INCREDIBLY CRUEL MEN TO WORK ON
THE 50 OR 60, ALMOST ALL BETWEEN
15 TO 25, CONSTANT VIOLENCE.
THERE ARE FIGHTS IN THE FIELDS
BETWEEN OVERSEERS AND MALE
SLAVES.
THE OVERSEERS DOES HAVE A LOT OF
WEAPONS, SO THEY END UP WINNING
THE FIGHTS.
THERE ARE LOTS OF RUNAWAYS.
THERE ARE OVERSEER REPORTS ABOUT
ONE HABITUAL RUNAWAY.
UNFORTUNATELY, THE AGENT FROM
MEMPHIS, WHICH IS WHERE IT'S IN
BEDFORD FORREST WAS A SLAVE
TRADER, SAYS, WE CAN'T SELL THEM
BECAUSE HIS BACK IS TO BADLY
MARKED FROM THE WEB.
I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT THAT THE
FURTHER OUT THEY GUIDE IN THE
DEEPER INTO THE WOODS, THE
CRUELER THINGS BECAME.
YOU ALSO WRITE ABOUT, AND
THIS IS UNPLEASANT TO GET INTO,
BUT YOU WRITE MORE EXQUISITELY I
THINK THAN MOST ACCOUNTS OF
SLAVERY HAVE BENT ABOUT THE
SEXUAL EXPORTATION OF WOMEN.
-- EXPLOITATION OF WOMEN.
WHEN I WAS A KID IN THE
MISSISSIPPI VALLEY, THERE WOULD
BE NO REFERENCE TO PHYSICAL
RELATIONS BETWEEN THE OWNERS OR
WHITE PEOPLE AND THE SLAVES.
SOMETIMES THE TOUR GUIDE WOULD
CAST OFF SOME PLAYFUL REFERENCE
TO THE PART OF THE PLANTATION
WHERE SOMETIMES THE YOUNG MEN OF
THE PLANTATION OR THE SONS OF
THE OWNER, SOMETIMES THEY WOULD
END UP DOWN IN THE QUARTERS AND
THAT IS HOW A LIGHT SKINNED BABY
WOULD COME TO PASS.
AND THERE'S SOMETHING KIND OF
HUMOROUS ABOUT IT.
IT WAS THIS MODEST LITTLE THING
THAT HAD TO DO WITH WHEN YOUNG
MEN GOT TOO DRUNK AND WENT TO
EXCESS ON A SATURDAY NIGHT.
YOU TALK ABOUT, YOU QUOTE
SOMEONE, THE RAPE OF A
PARTICULAR BLACK WOMAN AFTER SHE
IS BEEN PURCHASED, AS IS THE
COMMON PRACTICE.
YOU SAY SLAVERY'S FRONTIER WAS A
WHITE MAN SEXUAL PLAYGROUND.
YES.
THOSE ARE STRONG STATEMENTS, BUT
I ALSO THINK THAT THEY ARE TRUE.
I WAS CERTAINLY SURPRISED WHEN I
STARTED TO DISCOVER IN THE
PAPERS OF RICE BALLARD, WHO
STARTS OFF AS ONE OF THE
COUNTRY'S GREAT SLAVE TRADERS
AND EVENTUALLY BECOMES ONE OF
THE COUNTRY'S GREAT PLANTATION
OWNERS BY THE 1850'S.
THE OPERATIONS HE OWNS ARE
PRODUCING 10,000 BALES OF COTTON
THE YEAR.
I WAS SURPRISED TO FIND, TO
DISCOVER, THE GREAT DEGREE OF
FRANKNESS WITH WHICH HE AND HIS
BUSINESS PARTNERS WROTE ABOUT
ENSLAVED WOMEN.
AND PARTICULARLY, THE LIGHT
SKINNED ONES WHO WERE SOLD AS A
KIND OF SYMBOL OF SEXUAL
PROWESS, IF YOU WILL, MARKETED
AS SUCH IN CERTAIN WAYS.
I WAS SURPRISED BY THE DEGREE OF
FRAGMENTS TO WHICH THEY TALKED
ABOUT ALL OF THAT AND TALKED
ABOUT THEIR OWN ESCAPADES AND
ASSAULTS, SEXUAL ASSAULTS ON
WOMEN.
AND JUST THE WAY IN WHICH THEY
ACCEPTED THIS AS PART OF THE
ATTRACTION, THE FRILLS OF THE
TRADE.
THE WAYS IN WHICH COMMODITIES,
WHO WERE HUMAN BEINGS, WERE
MARKETED AS SEXUAL COMMODITIES.
THIS WAS CERTAINLY ONE OF THE
MOST DEPRESSING PARTS OF THE
RESEARCH, AS YOU CAN IMAGINE.
BUT I THINK IT IS ALSO SOMETHING
THAT IS QUITE SIGNIFICANT TO
UNDERSTAND, THAT THE WAY IN
WHICH AMERICAN CULTURE IN
GENERAL IS OFTEN DESCRIBED AS
SEXUALIZING AFRICAN-AMERICAN
WOMEN, IN PARTICULAR WAYS AND
THE WAYS THAT AFRICAN AND MAC
AND WOMEN ARE DISPLAYED, THAT
THIS HAS VERY DEEP ROOTS.
AND THAT IS NOT JUST SOMETHING
THAT PEOPLE SAY.
THERE ARE SOME VERY CLEAR PIECES
OF EVIDENCE IN THE 19TH CENTURY
IN WAYS IN WHICH THE DOMESTIC
SLAVE TRADE WORKED ACTIVELY TO
EXPLOIT THE SEXUALIZATION OF
WOMEN, TO PUT IT OUT THERE, AND
THEN TO MAKE IT -- MAKE PROFIT
FROM IT, AS IT WERE.
IT IS REALLY INTERESTING.
YOU CAN STATISTICALLY MAP OUT
DATA ABOUT MEN AND WOMEN WHO
WERE SOLD IN THE NEW ORLEANS
MARKET.
AND YOU CAN FIND THAT THERE'S A
REALLY CLEAR RELATIONSHIP FOR
MEMBER TO AN HEIGHT AND PRICE.
THE TALL OR THEY WERE FORGIVEN
AGE, THE HIGHER THE PRICE WAS
LIKELY TO BE.
BUT THERE IS NO RELATIONSHIP
LIKE THAT FOR WOMEN.
AND IT'S HARD TO FIGURE OUT FROM
THE DATA THAT WE HAVE WHAT MADE
PRICE GO UP OR DOWN.
ON THE OTHER HAND, WHEN YOU READ
WHAT SLAVE TRADERS ARE WRITING,
THEY CONSTANTLY WRITE ABOUT
MEN'S HEIGHT AND PERCEIVED
ROBUSTNESS AND SO ONE, AND THEY
WRITE ABOUT WOMEN'S PHYSICAL
ATTRACTIVENESS IN THEIR EYES, OF
COURSE.
SO I SUSPECT THAT THIS WAS A
PART OF THE PRICE AS WELL.
IT IS A DISTURBING THING, AND
IT SURE FLIES AGAINST THE FACE
OF ANY OF THE SOFTER
INTERPRETATIONS OF THE STORY AS
IT'S BEEN TOLD.
YOU HAD A REAL CHALLENGE IN
TRYING TO HUMANIZE AND GIVE
DIMENSIONALITY TO THESE VICTIMS
BECAUSE WHILE YOU HAVE CHARLES
BALL AND HE HAD ORDERED SOLOMON
IN A RELATIVELY SMALL NUMBER OF
OTHER AUTOBIOGRAPHICAL PEOPLE AT
THAT TIME AND THE DEBBIE TA
NARRATIVE DONE LONG AFTER
SLAVERY, BUT WITH SURVIVING
SLAVES IN THE 1930'S, BUT ON THE
WHOLE, EVEN THOUGH THAT'S A
FAIRLY SUBSTANTIAL BODY OF
MATERIAL, IT IS STILL NOTHING
COMPARED TO HOW MANY INDIVIDUALS
EXPERIENCED THESE EVENTS.
AND SO YOU VERY CLEARLY SAYING
YOUR INTRODUCTION THAT YOU'RE
TRYING TO DO MORE THAN JUST A
HISTORICAL ACCOUNTING OF ALL OF
THIS, BUT TO TELL THIS STORY, TO
TELL THE STRONG, THIS NARRATIVE.
AND IT DO THAT, YOU HAD TO, I
TAKE IT, AND SOME OF THE OTHER
CRITICISMS, EVEN FROM PEOPLE WHO
REALLY LIKE THE BOOK, -- THAT
YOU GAVE YOURSELF PERMISSION TO
PUSH THE BOUNDARIES A LITTLE BIT
.
IN THE FOOTNOTES, THE VERY FIRST
FOOTNOTE IN THE FIRST CHAPTER,
YOU SORT OF CONFESS THIS, THAT
YOU'RE GOING TO WEAVE TOGETHER
SOME ACCOUNT AND USE SIMILAR
EXPERIENCES.
AND THERE ARE PLACES WHERE YOU
SAY SOMETHING MUST HAVE HAPPENED
OR WHAT HAVE HAPPENED OR THOUGHT
THAT A PERSON PROBABLY WOULD
HAVE HAD.
YOU USE SOME OF THE SORTS OF
THINGS.
IF THAT HAD BEEN IN HER PHD
DISSERTATION, I THINK HER
ADVISOR PROBABLY WOULD HAVE
CHALLENGED YOU ON YOUR
CONSTRUCTIONS.
WHAT WAS THE RATIONALE FOR DOING
THAT?
SOME SIMILAR TECHNIQUES ARE
IN MY PHD DISSERTATION.
[LAUGHTER]
AND WERE THEY CHALLENGED?
NO, MY ADVISOR PUSH ME
TOGETHER IS MUCH EVIDENCE AS
POSSIBLE AND PROVIDE THE BEST
POSSIBLE INTERPRETATION, ARGUE
FOR THAT INTERPRETATION, AND TRY
TO COMMUNICATE IT IN THE MOST
EFFECTIVE POSSIBLE LANGUAGE.
I THINK THAT IS WHAT WE DO AS
HISTORIANS.
LET'S GO BACK TO STEPHEN
WOODWARD WHO WROTE A GREAT PIECE
ON THE WPA NARRATIVES ABOUT 40
YEARS AGO.
HE SAID WHILE THE STAIR DOES OUR
INTERVIEWS THEM WITH VERY OLD
PEOPLE REMEMBERING THINGS THAT
HAPPENED LONG TIME AGO, OR THESE
THEIR LIVES ARE DONE -- OFTEN
THEY WERE CARRIED OUT BY WHITE
INTERVIEWERS WHO HAD A GREAT
DEAL OF POWER IN THE JIM CROW
SOUTH, AND VERY POOR
AFRICAN-AMERICAN INTERVIEWEES
WHO DID NOT HAVE A LOT OF POWER.
SO THIS MIGHT SKEW THE RESULTS.
AND WOODWARD SAID, THIS JUST
MAKES THEM HISTORICAL SOURCES.
HISTORICAL SOURCES ARE
COMPLICATED.
PEOPLE REMEMBER THINGS AND
SOMETIMES THEY MISREMEMBER
THINGS WERE DIFFERENT PEOPLE
REMEMBER THE SAME EVENT FROM A
DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE.
WE HAVE MILLIONS OF WORDS FROM
THOMAS JEFFERSON, NOTHING
PROBABLY MILLIONS, AND EVERYONE
OF THOSE WORDS IS A PERFORMANCE.
THAT DOESN'T MAKE THEM TRUE.
IT DOESN'T MAKE THEM FALSE.
WE HAVE TO INTERPRET HISTORICAL
SOURCES TO THE BEST POSSIBLE
EXTENT, GIVEN THE SOURCES WE
HAVE.
SO WHEN I TRY TO UNDERSTAND WHAT
WAS HAPPENING IN A WPA
NARRATIVES, WHAT WAS THE MESSAGE
THAT THE INTERVIEW WAS REALLY --
INTERVIEWEE WAS REALLY TRYING TO
COMMUNICATE, I THOUGHT ABOUT THE
OTHER WPA NARRATIVES I HAD READ.
THEY USED SOME OF CONSTRUCTIONS
OF SPEECH, WAYS OF TELLING THE
STORY.
HOW COULD I INTERPRET THOSE
WORDS IN THIS ONE IN THE LIGHT
OF WHAT WAS SAID IN OTHER ONES?
WHEN I THOUGHT ABOUT WHAT SOME
OF YOU MIGHT BE THINKING BASED
-- AS THEY STOOD ON THE AUCTION
BLOCK TO BE SOLD, I MAY NOT HAVE
KNOWN WHAT RACHEL OR WILLIAM
WERE THINKING, THEY DISAPPEARED
INTO THE CON COUNTRY WE DON'T
HAPPEN TO THEM, BUT SOME PEOPLE
DID SURVIVE TO TELL THEIR TALES.
AND IT IS HARD FOR ME TO IMAGINE
THAT WHAT THEY SAID, WHAT THEY
PUT DOWN ON THE PAGE WAS SO
DIFFERENT FROM WHAT RACHEL OR
WILLIAM MIGHT HAVE THOUGHT.
SO I TRY TO CONTEXTUALIZE
THINGS.
I TRY TO UNDERSTAND THEM AND IT
IS A RICH A WAYS POSSIBLE.
ABOVE ALL, TO PUT FORMERLY
ENSLAVED PEOPLE, THE ENSLAVED
PROTAGONISTS THEMSELVES OF THE
STORY, TO PUT THEM AT THE CENTER
OF THE STORY AGAIN AND AGAIN AND
AGAIN.
THE IDEA THE OFFICIAL RECORD
THAT THE WHITE MAN'S VERSION OF
EVENTS THAT SURVIVED BECAUSE HE
WAS THE ONE WITH RESOURCES AND
POSITION AND BECAUSE HIS LIFE
LASTED LONGER AND YOU -- THE
IDEA THAT THAT RECORD BECOMES
THE RECORD AND THEN WE CAN ONLY
TELL WHAT IS IN THAT RECORD
EQUALLY CONCRETE REPUTATION OF
IT.
FOR HISTORIAN TO FOLLOW THAT TO
ITS END, IS TO PARTICIPATE IN
THE CONSPIRACY.
I THINK THAT IS EXACTLY RIGHT.
TWO BIG IDEAS THAT WE HAVE
TOUCHED ON.
THAT OUR MYTHOLOGIES AROUND
SLAVERY.
ONE IS THIS NOTION THAT IT IS
DYING OUT AND IT WASN'T THAT
IMPORTANT TO THE ECONOMY AND THE
OTHER FROM THOSE DAYS IS RELATED
TO THAT, IS THAT THE CIVIL WAR
WAS REALLY WASN'T ABOUT SLAVERY.
I WAS THINKING ABOUT THIS LAST
NIGHT.
I PULLED UP THE SOUTH CAROLINA
-- NOT THE ORIGINAL ORDINANCE OF
SECESSION, BUT THE EXPLANATION
OF WHY THEY WERE SECEDING WILL
STOP IT IS ABOUT THREE PAGES
LONG AND ABOUT ONE THIRD OF IT
IS ALL ABOUT HOW THE REASON THEY
HAVE TO SECEDE IS BECAUSE THE
NORTH IS GOING TO ELIMINATE
SLAVERY.
THE OTHER THING I PULLED OUT,
THIS IS A BAD REFLECTION ON MY
READING INTERESTS, BUT THIS IS
-- THE WAS A PUBLICATION OUT OF
NEW YORK PUBLISHED IN 1860'S
CALLED THE OLD GUARD.
IT WAS BY PRO-CONFEDERATE NEW
YORKER.
THIS IS FROM THE OCTOBER 1865
EDITION OF THE OLD GUARD.
SO THE WAR IS OVER.
AND HE SAYS, THREE BILLIONS OF
PROPERTY IN SLAVES WAS HELD BY
PERHAPS 600,000 SLAVEHOLDERS WHO
WERE DEAD ANNOUNCED AS A SLAVE
ARE PERCEIVED BY THE NORTH HAS
CONVERTED THESE 3 BILLION A
SLAVE PROPERTY INTO UNITED
STATES BONDS, AND BY NOW,
100,000 PEOPLE.
ITS PRODUCTION GAVE US MORE THAN
TWO THIRDS OF THE REVENUE OF THE
COUNTRY.
HE PRODUCED MORE THAN TWO THIRDS
OF THE EXPORT WELL.
IT EMPLOYED MORE THAN TWO THIRDS
OF THE CAPITAL OF THE NORTH.
IT EMPLOYED THREE QUARTERS OF
THE LABORERS OF THE NORTH.
THEY GAVE HIGHER WAGES TO LABOR.
IN MAY LIVING CHEAP, PORT A TIDE
OF PLENTY OVER THE LAND.
IT GOES ON AND ON AND ON ABOUT
THE 4 MILLION NEGROES.
IT WAS EXPLICIT AT THE TIME.
PEOPLE ACTUALLY UNDERSTOOD.
THAT WAS AN ARGUMENT IN DEFENSE
OF SLAVERY IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE
WAR IS OVER.
SO HOW DOES IT COME TO PASS,
THAT AS 150 YEARS LATER, THAT WE
HAVE TO CIRCLE BACK AROUND TO
THE IDEA THAT SLAVERY WAS SO
CENTRAL TO AMERICAN LIFE AND WAS
AT THE CORE OF THE GREATEST
CONFLICT THAT SHAPED AMERICAN
HISTORY?
HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN?
WELL, THAT IS OCTOBER 1865,
RIGHT?
APRIL, 1865, ABRAHAM LINCOLN IS
A CERTAIN SPEECH, THE SECOND
INAUGURAL, AND HE DOESN'T MAKE
EXACTLY THE SAME ARGUMENT.
BUT HE ACKNOWLEDGES THE
CENTRALITY OF SLAVERY TO THE
CONFLICT THAT IS JUST WRAPPING
UP.
HE SAYS WE HAVE TO FIGHT THIS
WAR UNTIL EVERYTHING THAT WAS
GAINED, ALL THE MILLIONS OF
DOLLARS FROM THE 400 YEARS, 250
YEARS OF UNREQUITED -- BONDSMAN
UNREQUITED TOIL, THEN SO BE IT.
WE CAN HAVE NO QUARREL WITH GOD.
IF THAT'S SO MANDATED.
SURELY AFTER THAT, HE BUILDS ON
SOMETHING THAT HE SAYS IN THE
SECOND AND NOT REAL -- AND
ANOTHER SPEECH TO ARGUE FOR
CITIZENSHIP FOR
AFRICAN-AMERICANS, IN
PARTICULAR, FOR SOLDIERS.
THAT IS ESSENTIALLY WENT DECIDES
TO SHOOT HIM.
I BRING THIS UP BECAUSE WHAT
HAPPENS OVER THE NEXT 30 YEARS
IS A NATIONAL STRUGGLE, A
NATIONAL DEBATE ABOUT WHETHER OR
NOT AFRICAN-AMERICANS ARE GOING
TO BE ABLE TO EXERCISE
CITIZENSHIP RIGHTS.
BY THE 1890'S, WHITES IN THE
NORTH AND WHITES IN THE SOUTH,
OVER THE VEHEMENT OBJECTIONS OF
AFRICAN-AMERICANS, HAVE DECIDED
THAT THEY'RE GOING TO JOIN
FORCES AGAIN.
AND THEY'RE GOING TO KEEP
AFRICAN-AMERICANS FROM
EXERCISING FULL CITIZENSHIP
RIGHTS, PARTICULARLY, IN THE
SOUTH, BUT ALSO IN THE NORTH.
THERE ARE QUITE A FEW BLACK
NEIGHBORHOODS OF TOWNS IN
INDIANA AND OHIO AND SO ON THAT
GET BURNED OUT AND PEOPLE TO
TASTE AWAY AND EVERYTHING.
SO YOU HAVE TO JUSTIFY THAT,
RIGHT?
YOU HAVE TO CREATE A NEW
HISTORY.
YOU HAVE TO CREATE A HISTORY
THAT'S NOT THE HISTORY THAT THAT
AUTHOR TELLS.
IT'S NOT THE HISTORY THAT
ABRAHAM LINCOLN TOLD.
AND CERTAINLY NOT THE HISTORY
THAT SURVIVORS OF SLAVERY TOLD
AND CONTINUE TO TELL.
THE OFFICIAL VERSION OF HISTORY
IN WHICH SLAVERY WAS THE SORT OF
EXCEPTION, THIS ACCIDENT, IN
WHICH THE CIVIL WAR WAS FOUGHT
OVER SOME OBSCURE POLICY
DISAGREEMENTS ABOUT THE TERRIBLE
OR THE INTERPRETATION OF THE
CONSTITUTION.
THAT IS THE POINT WHEN HE GETS
AMPLIFIED, WHEN IT GETS WRITTEN
DOWN, AND THE BOLDEST POSSIBLE
INC. ON THE HISTORICAL RECORD,
THAT IS WHEN THE ENTIRE SCHOOLS
OF HISTORY ARE DEVELOPED TO
GUARD THAT INTERPRETATION.
IN FACT, YOU CAN SAY AN AMERICAN
PROFESSIONAL HISTORY DEVELOPS AT
THAT TIME AND FOR THAT PURPOSE,
RIGHT, TO TELL THAT PARTICULAR
STORY.
BUT THAT'S THE PART HISTORIANS
PLAYED.
AND THEY PLAY THAT FOR A LONG
TIME IN PAPERING OVER THE THINGS
THAT WERE OBVIOUS, I THINK, IN
1865.
WHAT YOU JUST SAID THE WORDS
REPARATION A MINUTE AGO.
WHAT DOES THIS ADD UP TO IN THE
PRESENT?
IS THERE STILL SOME BALANCING OF
THE BOOK THAT OUGHT TO BE DONE
OR COULD BE DONE?
IN THIS COUNTRY, WE HAVE
INHERITED A VAST NUMBER OF
ASSETS FROM THE PAST OF SLAVERY.
THIS IS TRUE WHETHER YOU LIVE IN
THE NORTH, SOUTH, WHETHER YOUR
ANCESTORS WERE HERE IN 1865 RATE
AND 61 ARE WHETHER THEY WEREN'T.
IT IS EVEN TRUE IN WAYS WHETHER
YOU ARE WHITE OR BLACK.
WE ARE LIVING IN PART ON THE
CAPITAL THAT WAS INITIALLY
DEPOSITED BY THIS SLAVER.
BUT OF COURSE, DIFFERENT PEOPLE
HAVE DIFFERENT ACCESS TO THAT.
TODAY CAPITAL, TO THAT WEALTH.
AND WE KNOW THAT SOME OF THOSE
DIVISIONS FALL ALONG RACE LINES.
WE KNOW THAT TODAY, THE AVERAGE
WHITE HOUSEHOLD HAS, I THINK, 13
TIMES THE WEALTH OF THE AVERAGE
AFRICAN-AMERICAN HOUSEHOLD.
THESE ARE SIMPLY THE FACTS.
AND THERE ARE MANY REASONS FOR
THEM.
AND CERTAINLY, SOME OF THEM GO
BACK INTO 1861 IN BEFORE.
AND THOSE DIVISIONS HAVE BEEN
MAINTAINED, SOMETIMES BY
GOVERNMENT POLICY EVER SINCE,
AND OTHER HISTORIANS AND WRITERS
HAVE DEMONSTRATED IN WRITING
ABOUT THE WAYS IN WHICH
GOVERNMENT POLICY EVEN SINCE
1865, HAS HAD A MASSIVE NET, A
MASSIVE EFFECT OF A NET TRANSFER
OF WEALTH FROM AFRICAN-AMERICANS
TO WHAT AMERICANS, IN
PARTICULAR.
THIS ISN'T SOMETHING THAT WOULD
TALK ABOUT IN OUR PUBLIC
DISCOURSE, EITHER, SO MUCH.
BUT I THINK -- WHATEVER THE WAY
TO DEAL WITH THAT AND TO TRY TO
CREATE A COUNTRY IN WHICH IN A
GENERATION OR TWO THE DISPARITY
IS NOT 13 TO ONE.
WHATEVER AFFECT OR WHAT EVER
POLICY OR SET OF POLICIES THAT
WE CHOOSE, I HOPE WILL FACE THIS
PROBLEM IN SOME WAY.
I THINK IT HAS TO BEGIN WITH A
HISTORICAL RECKONING.
THAT IS SOMETHING THAT I THINK
AS A COUNTRY, PARTICULARLY WHITE
AMERICANS, HAVE REALLY RESISTED
FACING IN CERTAIN WAYS.
AS I SAID, I DON'T EXEMPT
HISTORIANS FROM THAT.
WE HAVE BEEN TOO OFTEN COMPLICIT
IN THAT.
BUT IT BEGINS WITH REALLY
LOOKING AT THE HISTORY.
IT BEGINS, I THINK, WITH ALL
READERS, ALL AMERICANS, ALL
PEOPLE ARE INTERESTED IN HISTORY
TRYING TO SEE THAT HISTORY
BEFORE 1861 FROM THE PERSPECTIVE
OF ENSLAVED PEOPLE.
PUTTING ENSLAVED PEOPLE AT THE
CENTER OF THE STORY I THINK IS
ABSOLUTELY CRUCIAL FOR THE
EMOTIVE PART OF THAT TACKLING
HAPPEN.
WELL, YET MADE A GREAT
CONTRIBUTION TO OUR CONVERSATION
THAT WE ABSOLUTELY HAD TO HAVE.
THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.
THE BOOK IS, "THE HALF THAT IS
NEVER BEEN TOLD: SLAVERY AND THE
MAKING OF AMERICAN CAPITALISM"
BY EDWARD BAPTIST.
FOR MORE ABOUT THIS PROGRAM AND
OTHER EPISODES, VISIT US AT
MILLERCENTER.ORG/AMERICANFORUM.
SEE YOU NEXT TIME.
