ENERGY BUSINESS ALLOWED PUTIN TO PICK AND CHOOSE WHO WOULD BE
PICK AND CHOOSE WHO WOULD BE RICH AND WHO WOULD BE POWERFUL
RICH AND WHO WOULD BE POWERFUL IN UKRAINE.
IN UKRAINE. JOINING ME NOW IN HER FIRST TV
JOINING ME NOW IN HER FIRST TV INTERVIEW, NOT EVER BUT IN THIS
INTERVIEW, NOT EVER BUT IN THIS BOOK, IS RACHEL MADDOW.
BOOK, IS RACHEL MADDOW. THE BOOK IS FANTASTIC.
THE BOOK IS FANTASTIC. >> THANK YOU.
>> THANK YOU. >> IT’S A GREAT READ.
>> IT’S A GREAT READ. YOU ARE A -- YOU DON’T NEED TO
YOU ARE A -- YOU DON’T NEED TO HEAR THIS, BUT YOU’RE AN
HEAR THIS, BUT YOU’RE AN INCREDIBLE STORY TELLER.
INCREDIBLE STORY TELLER. IT REALLY PULLS YOU THROUGH.
IT REALLY PULLS YOU THROUGH. MAYBE LET’S START ON THE
MAYBE LET’S START ON THE RUSSIA/UKRAINE STUFF WHICH I
RUSSIA/UKRAINE STUFF WHICH I LEARNED A LOT ABOUT.
LEARNED A LOT ABOUT. THE DEGREE TO WHICH RESOURCE
THE DEGREE TO WHICH RESOURCE FIGHTS AND SORT OF QUESTIONS
FIGHTS AND SORT OF QUESTIONS ABOUT WHO WOULD DOMINATE ENERGY
ABOUT WHO WOULD DOMINATE ENERGY WERE AT THE KIND OF CORE, THE
WERE AT THE KIND OF CORE, THE LIKE PLATFORM OVER WHICH THE
LIKE PLATFORM OVER WHICH THE CONFLICT WAS HAVING BETWEEN
CONFLICT WAS HAVING BETWEEN RUSSIA AND UKRAINE?
RUSSIA AND UKRAINE? >> I WILL SAY AT THE OUTSET.
>> I WILL SAY AT THE OUTSET. FIRST OF ALL, THANK YOU.
FIRST OF ALL, THANK YOU. I’M SUPER NERVOUS ABOUT IT.
I’M SUPER NERVOUS ABOUT IT. I REALIZE IT’S A HARD SELL, A
I REALIZE IT’S A HARD SELL, A TOUGH TOPIC.
TOUGH TOPIC. YOU COVER THE OIL AND GAS
YOU COVER THE OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY WAY MORE THAN I DO.
INDUSTRY WAY MORE THAN I DO. YOU’RE MORE WELL-VERSED IN THIS
YOU’RE MORE WELL-VERSED IN THIS STUFF.
STUFF. I ENDED UP HERE BECAUSE I WAS
I ENDED UP HERE BECAUSE I WAS INTERESTED IN RUSSIA.
INTERESTED IN RUSSIA. I HAD THIS QUESTION TRYING TO
I HAD THIS QUESTION TRYING TO IMAGINE IT FROM PUTIN’S
IMAGINE IT FROM PUTIN’S PERSPECTIVE, RUSSIA’S
PERSPECTIVE, RUSSIA’S PERSPECTIVE, WHY ARE THEY
PERSPECTIVE, WHY ARE THEY PULLING ALL OF THIS BACK.
PULLING ALL OF THIS BACK. RUSSIA’S A MALIGNANT FEAR
RUSSIA’S A MALIGNANT FEAR FACTOR, WHY?
FACTOR, WHY? WHAT I CAME UP WITH IS THE FACT
WHAT I CAME UP WITH IS THE FACT THAT THEY HAVE A REALLY SCREWED
THAT THEY HAVE A REALLY SCREWED UP ECONOMY AND THAT DOESN’T MAKE
UP ECONOMY AND THAT DOESN’T MAKE SENSE EITHER BECAUSE THEY’D
SENSE EITHER BECAUSE THEY’D FLOAT ON A SEA OF OIL AND GAS.
FLOAT ON A SEA OF OIL AND GAS. WHY SHUNNED THEY HAVE A GOOD TO
WHY SHUNNED THEY HAVE A GOOD TO RUN.
RUN. IT VERY OFTEN CO OPS AT GOOD
IT VERY OFTEN CO OPS AT GOOD GOVERNMENT.
GOVERNMENT. IN THE HANDS OF AN UNSAVORY
IN THE HANDS OF AN UNSAVORY DICTATOR, IT CAN ALSO BE USED TO
DICTATOR, IT CAN ALSO BE USED TO DELIBERATELY CREATE CORRUPTION
DELIBERATELY CREATE CORRUPTION AND TO TURN THE LIGHTS ON AND
AND TO TURN THE LIGHTS ON AND OFF IN OTHER COUNTRIES.
OFF IN OTHER COUNTRIES. THAT’S HOW PUTIN HAS MANIPULATED
THAT’S HOW PUTIN HAS MANIPULATED UKRAINE.
UKRAINE. CREATING A RUSSIAN SUPPLY CHAIN
CREATING A RUSSIAN SUPPLY CHAIN IN ORDER TO FUND POLITICAL
IN ORDER TO FUND POLITICAL PARTIES THAT HE SUPPORTS AND TO
PARTIES THAT HE SUPPORTS AND TO CREATE MORASES OF CORRUPTION.
CREATE MORASES OF CORRUPTION. >> I WAS IN A CORRUPTION LAB
>> I WAS IN A CORRUPTION LAB WITH HIM AND HE TERMED
WITH HIM AND HE TERMED CORRUPTION AS AN INDEPENDENT
CORRUPTION AS AN INDEPENDENT CORRUPTION.
CORRUPTION. I KEEP THINKING OF THAT PHRASE
I KEEP THINKING OF THAT PHRASE IN THIS BOOK.
IN THIS BOOK. THERE ARE ALL KINDS OF IMPROPER
THERE ARE ALL KINDS OF IMPROPER DEPENDENTS.
DEPENDENTS. PEOPLE WHO SHOULD BE STEWARD’S
PEOPLE WHO SHOULD BE STEWARD’S OF THE BOUNDY DON’T HAVE A
OF THE BOUNDY DON’T HAVE A RESPONSE ON VLADIMIR PUTIN.
RESPONSE ON VLADIMIR PUTIN. THEY SHOULD BE LOOKING OUT FOR
THEY SHOULD BE LOOKING OUT FOR THE PEOPLE AND SAY THEY HAVE AN
THE PEOPLE AND SAY THEY HAVE AN INDEPENDENT MODEL ON
INDEPENDENT MODEL ON EXXONMOBILE.
EXXONMOBILE. WHAT IS IT ABOUT THIS INDUSTRY
WHAT IS IT ABOUT THIS INDUSTRY IN ALMOST EVERY PLACE IT
IN ALMOST EVERY PLACE IT OPERATES.
OPERATES. >> RESTRAKTTIVE CURVES AND THEY
>> RESTRAKTTIVE CURVES AND THEY HAVE RESOURCES THA CAN BE SOLD
HAVE RESOURCES THA CAN BE SOLD INTERNATIONALLY, YOU ARE SUBJECT
INTERNATIONALLY, YOU ARE SUBJECT TO THE SORT OF PARADOX.
TO THE SORT OF PARADOX. THE REVENUES THAT YOU GET FOR
THE REVENUES THAT YOU GET FOR THAT.
THAT. >> IT’S MONEY.
>> IT’S MONEY. IT’S MONEY.
IT’S MONEY. IT’S RAINING MONEY.
IT’S RAINING MONEY. >> EXCEPT WHAT IT TENDS TO DO IS
>> EXCEPT WHAT IT TENDS TO DO IS CREATE A STREAM OF MONEY THAT IS
CREATE A STREAM OF MONEY THAT IS GOING TO ALLOW THEM TO COME IN
GOING TO ALLOW THEM TO COME IN AND TAKE THAT OUT.
AND TAKE THAT OUT. THE GOVERNMENT MINISTERS HAVE NO
THE GOVERNMENT MINISTERS HAVE NO PURPOSE ON EARTH OTHER THAN TO
PURPOSE ON EARTH OTHER THAN TO KEEP THEMSELVES IN POWER TO CASH
KEEP THEMSELVES IN POWER TO CASH IN ON THAT.
IN ON THAT. IT MAKES THE GOVERNMENT DRIVEN
IT MAKES THE GOVERNMENT DRIVEN IN THAT DIRECTION.
IN THAT DIRECTION. $25 BILLION IN A LITTLE POOR
$25 BILLION IN A LITTLE POOR COUNTRY LIKE EQUITORIAL GUINEA.
COUNTRY LIKE EQUITORIAL GUINEA. POVERTY AND HEALTH CARE AND
POVERTY AND HEALTH CARE AND EDUCATION GO DOWN AND THE SON OF
EDUCATION GO DOWN AND THE SON OF THE PRESIDENT BUYS ALL THE
THE PRESIDENT BUYS ALL THE WORLD’S MICHAEL JACKSON
WORLD’S MICHAEL JACKSON MEMORABILIA.
MEMORABILIA. THEY BUILD THREE NEW CAPITOL
THEY BUILD THREE NEW CAPITOL CITIES.
CITIES. HE BECOMES THE LONGEST SITTING
HE BECOMES THE LONGEST SITTING PRESIDENT IN THE WORLD.
PRESIDENT IN THE WORLD. THAT’S THE SORT OF INFLUENCE
THAT’S THE SORT OF INFLUENCE THAT OIL AND GAS COMPANIES CAN
THAT OIL AND GAS COMPANIES CAN HAVE IN SMALL COUNTRIES.
HAVE IN SMALL COUNTRIES. THEY CAN ALSO DO THAT IN BIG
THEY CAN ALSO DO THAT IN BIG CONDITIONS TRIS.
CONDITIONS TRIS. >> CARS WERE SOLD FOR $25,000.
>> CARS WERE SOLD FOR $25,000. >> THERE’S THE FLEET OF THE ILL
>> THERE’S THE FLEET OF THE ILL GOTTEN OIL.
GOTTEN OIL. >> AND THERE’S -- THE OTHER PART
>> AND THERE’S -- THE OTHER PART OF THIS IS THE FOSSIL FIELD WILL
OF THIS IS THE FOSSIL FIELD WILL OPERATE IN THIS RUTHLESSLY
OPERATE IN THIS RUTHLESSLY AMORAL SPACE.
AMORAL SPACE. >> YES, THAT’S A PERFECT WAY TO
>> YES, THAT’S A PERFECT WAY TO PUT IT.
PUT IT. >> THEY’LL DEAL WITH -- IF
>> THEY’LL DEAL WITH -- IF YOU’RE THE GOVERNOR OF OKLAHOMA,
YOU’RE THE GOVERNOR OF OKLAHOMA, THEY’LL DEAL WITH YOU.
THEY’LL DEAL WITH YOU. IF YOU ARE A DESPERATE SON, IF
IF YOU ARE A DESPERATE SON, IF YOU’RE VLADIMIR PULT CONTINUE,
YOU’RE VLADIMIR PULT CONTINUE, WE’LL GET IT OUT FOF HERE.
WE’LL GET IT OUT FOF HERE. THEY WANT CONTRACT SANCTITY.
THEY WANT CONTRACT SANCTITY. WHAT THEY NEED IS STABILITY AND
WHAT THEY NEED IS STABILITY AND ASSURANCE AND THEY DON’T HAVE TO
ASSURANCE AND THEY DON’T HAVE TO DO TOO MUCH MORE FOR ONE-STOP
DO TOO MUCH MORE FOR ONE-STOP SHOPPING.
SHOPPING. IT’S NOT THAT OIL AND GAS
IT’S NOT THAT OIL AND GAS COMPANIES SEEK TO INSTALL
COMPANIES SEEK TO INSTALL DICTATORS, IF THERE IS ONE
DICTATORS, IF THERE IS ONE THERE, THAT’S GOING TO BE QUITE
THERE, THAT’S GOING TO BE QUITE CONVENIENT FOR THEM IN MOST
CONVENIENT FOR THEM IN MOST CASES.
CASES. >> IT’S SIMPLIFYING.
>> IT’S SIMPLIFYING. >> IT’S SIMPLIFYING IN TERMS OF
>> IT’S SIMPLIFYING IN TERMS OF WHO DO YOU BLAME, WHAT ARE THEY
WHO DO YOU BLAME, WHAT ARE THEY DOING UP FOR YOU?
DOING UP FOR YOU? SO IT’S NOT A COULD INNINGS
SO IT’S NOT A COULD INNINGS DENSE THAT YOU END UP WITH SORT
DENSE THAT YOU END UP WITH SORT OF COERCION OF DEMOCRACY WHERE
OF COERCION OF DEMOCRACY WHERE OIL AND GAS COMPANIES HAVE SWAY.
OIL AND GAS COMPANIES HAVE SWAY. I THINK WE CAN SEE THAT AT HOME
I THINK WE CAN SEE THAT AT HOME BUT IN RUSSIA I THINK IT
BUT IN RUSSIA I THINK IT CONTRIBUTED TO THEM HAVING A
CONTRIBUTED TO THEM HAVING A REAL WEAK SPOT IN TERMS OF WHAT
REAL WEAK SPOT IN TERMS OF WHAT THEY CAN DO TO STAY OUT OF OTHER
THEY CAN DO TO STAY OUT OF OTHER COUNTRIES.
COUNTRIES. HE ENDED UP USING OIL AND GAS IN
HE ENDED UP USING OIL AND GAS IN CORRUPTION.
CORRUPTION. ESPECIALLY IN THE UKRAINE.
ESPECIALLY IN THE UKRAINE. HE ALSO KNOWS THAT UNLESS HE
HE ALSO KNOWS THAT UNLESS HE GETS SOME SANCTIONS LIFTED,
GETS SOME SANCTIONS LIFTED, UNLESS HE CAN GET EXXON, SHELL,
UNLESS HE CAN GET EXXON, SHELL, BP, ALL THESE WESTERN COUNTRIES
BP, ALL THESE WESTERN COUNTRIES IN TO HELP HIM DRILL, RUSSIA’S
IN TO HELP HIM DRILL, RUSSIA’S ONE ECONOMIC ASSET IS NOT
ONE ECONOMIC ASSET IS NOT SOMETHING HE CAN GET OUT OF THE
SOMETHING HE CAN GET OUT OF THE GROUND.
GROUND. >> YES.
>> YES. HE’S THE THEATER.
HE’S THE THEATER. >> WHEN I WAS READING THIS I WAS
>> WHEN I WAS READING THIS I WAS THINKING THE TWO SKETCHIEST
THINKING THE TWO SKETCHIEST RELATIONSHIPS THE PRESIDENT HAS
RELATIONSHIPS THE PRESIDENT HAS IS WITH MOHAMED.
IS WITH MOHAMED. >> THEY HAVE DISPOTTIC REGIMES
>> THEY HAVE DISPOTTIC REGIMES AND ENGAGING IN LOTS OF SORT OF
AND ENGAGING IN LOTS OF SORT OF MALFEASANCE AND MISCHIEF AND BAD
MALFEASANCE AND MISCHIEF AND BAD ACTS AROUND THE WORLD AT THE
ACTS AROUND THE WORLD AT THE TIME.
TIME. I ALSO WONDER HOW MUCH -- YOU
I ALSO WONDER HOW MUCH -- YOU DON’T TALK ABOUT THIS THIS MUCH.
DON’T TALK ABOUT THIS THIS MUCH. THEY’RE GOING TO HAVE TO STOP
THEY’RE GOING TO HAVE TO STOP PULLING STUFF OUT OF THE GROUND.
PULLING STUFF OUT OF THE GROUND. THEY HAVE BEEN OPERATING IN ALL
THEY HAVE BEEN OPERATING IN ALL KINDS OF PLACES.
KINDS OF PLACES. THEY’RE CORRUPT IN GOVERNMENT,
THEY’RE CORRUPT IN GOVERNMENT, HAD ILLICIT DEALS.
HAD ILLICIT DEALS. THEY HAVE ENOUGH TO MELT THE
THEY HAVE ENOUGH TO MELT THE ENTIRE WORLD AND THEY’RE GOING
ENTIRE WORLD AND THEY’RE GOING TO HAVE TO LEAVE A HUGE CHUNK OF
TO HAVE TO LEAVE A HUGE CHUNK OF IT IN THE GROUND.
IT IN THE GROUND. WHAT HAPPENS?
WHAT HAPPENS? >> WHERE I ENDED UP WITH THE
>> WHERE I ENDED UP WITH THE BOOK WAS A PLACE I DID NOT
BOOK WAS A PLACE I DID NOT EXPECT TO BE, WHICH IS I’M A
EXPECT TO BE, WHICH IS I’M A LITTLE BIT HOPEFUL BUT I HAVE TO
LITTLE BIT HOPEFUL BUT I HAVE TO PUT A HEADS UP.
PUT A HEADS UP. I’M HOPEFUL BECAUSE I THINK THE
I’M HOPEFUL BECAUSE I THINK THE SOLUTION IS DEMOCRACY.
SOLUTION IS DEMOCRACY. WHEN YOU LOOK AT, FOR EXAMPLE,
WHEN YOU LOOK AT, FOR EXAMPLE, THE EXAMPLE OF OKLAHOMA AND
THE EXAMPLE OF OKLAHOMA AND OKLAHOMA CITY, THAT’S A VERY
OKLAHOMA CITY, THAT’S A VERY POSITIVE EXAMPLE.
POSITIVE EXAMPLE. >> PEOPLE ARE LIKE, WHAT’S GOING
>> PEOPLE ARE LIKE, WHAT’S GOING ON?
ON? >> IT’S NOT THAT OKLAHOMA BECAME
>> IT’S NOT THAT OKLAHOMA BECAME A BLUE STATE OR ENVIRONMENTAL
A BLUE STATE OR ENVIRONMENTAL HAVEN MP AND IN A WAY THAT I
HAVEN MP AND IN A WAY THAT I REALLY FEEL LIKE IS A MODEL FOR
REALLY FEEL LIKE IS A MODEL FOR THE COUNTRY AND SOME WAYS FOR
THE COUNTRY AND SOME WAYS FOR THE WORLD.
THE WORLD. OKLAHOMA KIND OF SHOWS THE WAY
OKLAHOMA KIND OF SHOWS THE WAY TO DO IT.
TO DO IT. SO DEMOCRACY WORKS.
SO DEMOCRACY WORKS. THE PROBLEM IS THAT WHAT
THE PROBLEM IS THAT WHAT DEMOCRACY IS GOING TO ACCOMPLISH
DEMOCRACY IS GOING TO ACCOMPLISH SOON IS THE END OF THE OIL AND
SOON IS THE END OF THE OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY BECAUSE OF CLIMATE
GAS INDUSTRY BECAUSE OF CLIMATE CHANGE.
CHANGE. IT MAY NOT BE A DEEP
IT MAY NOT BE A DEEP CRESCENDO --
CRESCENDO -- >> WE SHOULD BE PREPARED.
>> WE SHOULD BE PREPARED. THAT’S GOING TO MOVE BORDERS OF
THAT’S GOING TO MOVE BORDERS OF COUNTRIES BECAUSE MORE THAN WE
COUNTRIES BECAUSE MORE THAN WE APPRECIATE, IT IS WESTERN OIL
APPRECIATE, IT IS WESTERN OIL AND GAS THAT ARE PROPPING UP ALL
AND GAS THAT ARE PROPPING UP ALL SORTS OF HOLES.
SORTS OF HOLES. WHEN THEIR MARKET SHARE
WHEN THEIR MARKET SHARE DISAPPEARS AND THEIR INFLUENCE
DISAPPEARS AND THEIR INFLUENCE GOES AWAY, THE WORLD IS GOING TO
GOES AWAY, THE WORLD IS GOING TO CHANGE.
CHANGE. WE CAN ALL IMAGINE WHAT IT’S
WE CAN ALL IMAGINE WHAT IT’S GOING TO DO.
GOING TO DO. EVERYWHERE THAT OIL IS PRODUCED
EVERYWHERE THAT OIL IS PRODUCED BECAUSE THEY HAVE SUCH AN IMPACT
BECAUSE THEY HAVE SUCH AN IMPACT ON EVERYTHING.
ON EVERYTHING. >> WHEN THEY GO THERE’S SOFT
>> WHEN THEY GO THERE’S SOFT LAPPING VERSUS HARD LAPPING.
LAPPING VERSUS HARD LAPPING. HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE FOR
HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE FOR MARKETS AND EVERYONE TO REALIZE
MARKETS AND EVERYONE TO REALIZE THIS?
THIS? >> WE’RE WILEY COYOTE ABOUT
>> WE’RE WILEY COYOTE ABOUT THIS.
THIS. WE’LL STIFF EXTRACTING IT.
WE’LL STIFF EXTRACTING IT. EMISSIONS ARE GOING UP.
EMISSIONS ARE GOING UP. REALLY GOING UP IN PLACES LIKE
REALLY GOING UP IN PLACES LIKE CHINA AND INDIA.
CHINA AND INDIA. I GUESS THE QUESTION IS LIKE ARE
I GUESS THE QUESTION IS LIKE ARE YOU CONFIDENT THEY WILL HAVE TO
YOU CONFIDENT THEY WILL HAVE TO STOP AND HOW QUICKLY --
STOP AND HOW QUICKLY -- >> THERE WILL NEVER STOP
>> THERE WILL NEVER STOP THEMSELVES.
THEMSELVES. THE OIL AND GAS --
THE OIL AND GAS -- >> THEY’RE NOT GOING TO
>> THEY’RE NOT GOING TO VOLUNTEER.
VOLUNTEER. >> -- ARE MARKETING THEMSELVES
>> -- ARE MARKETING THEMSELVES AS TECHNOLOGICAL WIZARDS.
AS TECHNOLOGICAL WIZARDS. >> 45% OF OUR CARBON EMISSIONS
>> 45% OF OUR CARBON EMISSIONS ARE BURNING OIL.
ARE BURNING OIL. 31% OF NATURAL GAS.
31% OF NATURAL GAS. THAT’S NOT A GREAT BRIDGE,
THAT’S NOT A GREAT BRIDGE, THAT’S ANOTHER FUTURE.
THAT’S ANOTHER FUTURE. THE OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY WILL
THE OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY WILL NOT HAVE TO STOP THEMSELVES.
NOT HAVE TO STOP THEMSELVES. THE QUESTION OF WHEN IT HAPPENS
THE QUESTION OF WHEN IT HAPPENS IS GOING TO DEPEND ON SCIENCE,
IS GOING TO DEPEND ON SCIENCE, INNOVATION AND DEMOCRATIC POWER.
INNOVATION AND DEMOCRATIC POWER. THE REVELATION FOR ME ABOUT THE
THE REVELATION FOR ME ABOUT THE OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY IS HOW BAD
OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY IS HOW BAD THEY ARE AT THEIR OWN GAME.
THEY ARE AT THEIR OWN GAME. HOW MUCH THEY CAN’T DO.
HOW MUCH THEY CAN’T DO. THAT’S THE STUFF THAT’S IN THEIR
THAT’S THE STUFF THAT’S IN THEIR WHEEM HOUSE.
WHEEM HOUSE. PUTIN THINKS HE NEEDS WESTERN
PUTIN THINKS HE NEEDS WESTERN OIL COMPANY.
OIL COMPANY. THEY CAN’T THINK THEIR WAY OUT
THEY CAN’T THINK THEIR WAY OUT OF IT.
OF IT. THE PEOPLE WHO ARE GOOD AT WHAT
THE PEOPLE WHO ARE GOOD AT WHAT THEY DO ARE THE PEOPLE THAT ARE
THEY DO ARE THE PEOPLE THAT ARE GOING TO GET US OUT OF THIS
GOING TO GET US OUT OF THIS MESS.
MESS. >> THEY’RE SUBJECT TO THE BOOK,
>> THEY’RE SUBJECT TO THE BOOK, TOO.
TOO. IT’S CALLED BLYOUT.
