Good evening, my name is Emily
Underwood. I'm with the Missouri
Historical Society and our
community engagement division.
And on behalf of MHS I want to
welcome you to STL history live.
And thank you so much for
joining us this evening. Safety
is a top priority for us. So
nearly all of our programming is
virtual right now, but the
museum isn't Open you can visit
on Wednesday through Sunday.
There are a number of safety
precautions in place but we
would love for you to visit if
you feel safe doing so. Advanced
reservations are required to
visit any of the Missouri
Historical Society locations
including the museum soldiers
Memorial, and the library and
Research Center. And you can
visit moe history.org to plan
your visit and get your free
tickets. I do know that some of
you watching this evening are
members and we want to extend a
huge thank you to you we are
always so appreciative of your
support and grateful for it. If
you're not a member, we would
love for you to consider joining
today. I'm going to go ahead and
post in a few minutes I'll post
a link on for how to join in the
chat box that you'll be able to
find and I also want to
sincerely thank all of the
residents of St. Louis city and
county for your tax
contributions through the zoo
museum tax district. We are so
thrilled to host tonight's
program black pride. I want to
thank our collaborator group
black Pride St. Louis, who
really organized the panel for
us and did all the work. on that
end, I want to give a special
shout out to Randy rafter for
all the work he did. So thank
you so much, Randy. We're very
much looking forward to hearing
the program tonight. But before
we do that, I do want to quickly
mention also that the Missouri
Historical Society has a gateway
to pride collecting initiative.
And you can look here on this
slide that I'm sharing who we do
want your help. We are actively
collecting objects, archival
materials, oral histories,
anything to help us tell the
story of the LGBTQIA plus
community in St. Louis and that
history. So you can see on the
slide some of the types of
objects and things that we are
collecting and the stories we
want to tell. And if you want to
learn more about that or you
know, inquire about a possible
donation, you can see the email
that's listed gateway to pride
at mo history.org. So please
feel free to contact us there
and I Some of those objects may
also contribute in the future to
an upcoming virtual exhibits. So
we're very excited about all the
possibilities there. So let's go
ahead and get to the program, I
would love to introduce you to
Dr. Jeffrey McCune Jr. He's an
associate professor of African
and African American Studies and
women Gender and Sexuality
Studies at Washington University
in St. Louis. He's the author of
the award winning book, sexual
discretion, black masculinity
and the politics of passing. And
he's presently completing two
book projects, disobedient
reading and experiment and
seeing black and another on the
wildness of Kanye West, titled
on Kanye. He has published in a
variety of journals. He serves
on the editorial board of
numerous journals, and is the CO
editor of the University of
California presses new sexual
worlds book series, for his work
at the intersections of race,
gender and sexuality. He has
been featured on left of black
Sirius XM, Joe Madison. Show
huffpost live NPR and as a guest
expert on Bill Nye saves the
world. Tonight he's going to get
us started by talking briefly
about black LGBTQIA plus
activist leaders and some ideas
that emerged from black LGBTQIA
plus activists. And then he's
going to lead a discussion with
all of our wonderful panelists
tonight. Dr. Monique Maxi,
Vincent Tucker, aka veiny, Vicki
Valentino and Dr. Arise
Williams. And so at this point,
I'm going to cede the screen to
Dr. McCune and let him take it
away. Thank you so much.
Believing I don't think I can
start the video but I definitely
think I can be heard. Oh, there
we are. While Ah thank you for
having me. I'm really excited
about the auction. opportunity
to really talk with members of
this community and to engage
conversations around what is
black pride? And how can we talk
about activism in this moment,
and I think that, you know, to
start this conversation, I would
be remiss not to talk about the
present moment that we are
living in the moment of, of
great unrest in this country,
around issues of police violence
against black bodies, for daring
to be black, right. And I am
really heavy actually today, and
I'll be honest, I was so taken
by that that my comments today
that started as a kind of
historiography, moved into a
much more theoretical and
political invitation To think
about black sexuality and black
queerness as an act of
disobedience, while I'm writing
this book on disobedient
reading, the frame of
disobedience has been a part of
what I've been thinking about.
And today, what I'm really
struck by is the ways in which
America seems to be telling
black people over and over
again, that their existence is
an act of disobedience. And so
when I think about many folks
who have been trying to discover
and find and, and develop a way
to understand black sexuality,
and black, queer spaces and
black, queer, social, social
worlds, and sexual worlds, when
I think about that search, I
think about the search itself as
a act of disobedience. I think
of it as as saying that this is
not a moment where we can
continue with the same old
history with the same old
stories. And just because
segregation has invited us to
not account for the multiple
bodies and multiple experiences,
we are going to do that work
right, we are going to dis
obediently inject ourselves into
the Archive of American World
History in ways that people have
not seen before. And so one of
the things I wanted to do was
invite you all to think about
even this moment of unrest,
which is largely led by black
queer folks, as an extension of
the historical black queer
movement from slavery to the
present. Understanding that even
in the midst of the slave
plantations and quarters, where
even their hetero production,
reproduction of bodies, having
babies and building things, and
creating the American That we've
come to know was rooted in some
idea of heterosexuality, that
even in those moments, there
were folks who dare to dis obey,
who dare to not be productive,
who dare to not actually do what
the master told them who dare
to, to kind of see themselves as
queer subjects in the midst of
this kind of status quo
condition of black people as
property. And they moved against
that system, and in essence,
right, performed a really deep,
disobedient reading of America
but also a disobedient
performance of American
citizenry. Right, and in some
ways, black
radical and disobedient
performance of blackness. And so
part of what I'm working through
is just what does it mean to be
on the streets in this month?
Today, as we see, you know,
sports players, we see artists,
we see so many folks who are
saying, we will no longer do the
labor of this society. If in
fact you cannot humanize us, if
you're going to continue to
dehumanize us, and continue the
historical tradition of lynching
us, then we will not right show
up to work, right? And so what
was burdening me today was like,
how can I show up to work and
talk about pride? In fact,
right, I am not feeling so
prideful right now in this
country that continues to injure
us. And then I thought about it.
I said that, that is actually
what is actually all this
question on the panel as well.
But that is actually what is so
fascinating about the concept of
black pride versus what we might
call dominant pride. Right? That
our pride always right invites
to think critically about the
state of black people, right,
that even as we are engaging in
parades, and we're engaging in
community building, that we're
always negotiating the
conditions of black people in
the world. And that position,
right, is a position that just
obeys the law of pride itself.
Pride is just supposed to be
celebration, say it loud, I'm
proud, I'm quitting. I'm proud,
right? Like, like, you know, and
instead of that, right, we have,
we have decided right, to evoke
black pride as we have come to
know it. Right. And we began to
understand ourselves, to be a
people who understands that
pride is not just about
festivity. But pride is about
the fierceness of blackness that
is necessary to survive. And so
for me, you know, coming in this
moment where We're really
reflecting on the abuse of power
of the state on black bodies.
Black queer people being
involved is not a coincidence
because we have historically
been quiet unfortunately been
quieted, not quiet, but quiet,
timid, about the violence that
have been done to our body in
the name of pride in the name of
white civilization in the name
of the Dred Scott decision,
right? That we that we've always
been up against, right the norms
of this society. And so I am I
am hesitant in some ways right
to historicize right this
development of pride over time,
but I do want to say a few
things that there's something
important last thing I'll say
cuz i guess i got three minutes
but like the last the something
really important, about
understanding that, you know, in
music, we call this counter
puddle, right? Like like that
black life is always countered
puddle. Right? It is in the
moment and out of the moment in
the moment out of the moment in
the moment out of the moment,
right. And part of what I'm
saying is that every moment of
American history where black
people are involved is a moment
of trying to find joy in the
midst of despair. Right? It's
always simultaneous, right? It's
It's neither nor right. So this
is why when we protest, right,
it is it is unfair for people to
only talk about the looting in
the street and the rioting,
right. Because at the same time,
we have people who are in drag
performance who are performing
as Michael Jackson, who are
performing as, as Janet Jackson.
Right, right. We have we have
that simultaneous. We have folks
who are in the streets saying,
you know, we will not rest
right? We cannot be quiet,
right? We can't breathe right.
Simultaneously while we have
people who are actually
breathing, who are actually
laughing, who actually smiling,
right, and that simultaneity
that gets Arad erased, right
when the state tries to stamp on
the actual reality of what it is
that black people are
articulating in these moments of
great unrest. Right. And so to
read the the basketball players
even today, as, as as a protest
is actually a misreading, when
in fact, it is a strike. Right?
And there's something very
significant about understanding
that right now, why is that
relevant to black pride? Well,
that's because we don't get to
not be black.
Right. So even if I am in a
moment where I want to celebrate
my LGBTQIA self, right, I'm also
burdened With the reality that
not only have we
disproportionate rates of
violence against black trans
women's bodies, right, black
trans men's bodies as well,
right? Not only does the face
that, but also the face that my
brother, my sister, brother, or
my sister even, right has been
subjugated under the pressures
and power of the state, and its
police and his his and his
institutions. And so I wanted to
like start there. I mean,
there's so much to talk about,
that I could talk about in terms
of thinking about the span of
have a history of what I call
lay activists, because I think
we spend a lot of time talking
about grant activist, but I was
I was just reflecting on even
things like Miss Fanny's ball as
a site of activism, right. Well,
we know we're living in a world
that's telling people in the
1950s to be to be segregated
that people do not coalescing
convene, right? But yet people
are like, No, we are creating a
queer space. And it's queer
because it's against this white
normativity that says that folks
cannot co convene and be
together. That's not to say they
weren't tensions. Right? Well,
that's to say that that was one
space of possibility. That of
course, for shadows, rehab, and
for shadows, other places where
we see you know, cross cultural
production and cross cultural,
convening and cross cultural
relationships. Right. I think
there's so many places when we
think about HIV AIDS, and we
think about the work that black
lesbian women did right to care
for black queer men who were
suffering aids right and still
are doing that work. But we have
to talk about those alliances
and Coalition's as we think
about these relationships, that
we don't do any of this alone,
right, that we that we disobey
the law that says that we are
individuals. But understanding
that black pride has been so
much about collectivity and our
possibility. I'll stop there.
And then I guess I'll turn it
back over to you to introduce
the rest of the panel. But
that's, that's where I want to
go today.
Thank you. Thank you, Jeffrey.
Yeah, I'm going to bring the
rest of our panelists actually,
you can all turn on your cameras
and your mics if that's all
right. We've got Dr. Arise
Williams, Dr. Monique's,
Monique, Maxie and Vincent
Tucker all with us today. And
I'm actually going to let you
all introduce yourselves if you
want to just take a quick moment
and let us know. Um, you know,
tell us a little about who you
are and who you work with or
just, you know, we brought you
here because you You in some way
or in an activist space so maybe
what that means to you to be in
an activist space and then I'll
let Jeffrey take the
conversation from there.
Okay, I'm Emily, I can't stop
the video.
I'm gonna fix that for you right
now.
There we go. Wonderful. Great.
Any of you can start yours since
you're already already chatting
you
want to go ahead
and before I start let me just
make one small correction. It's
not Dr. Heroes Williams is just
erase Williams but
but yet
converted by the community.
Yeah, I'm Eros Williams. I have
been involved in the community
in terms of activism for 25 plus
years. And I have to say even
though most of my activism has
been around HIV and AIDS in the
black community in particularly
among black, gay men, my
activism actually started in
college during undergrad in
terms of protesting against
apartheid. Back in the late 80s,
and that kind of got me going,
you know, it's kind of like, the
thing that kind of got me
started and was what little did
I know preparing me for the long
battle around activism around
LGBT black LGBT issues in HIV
and AIDS. I am one of the
original founders of blood
product. There were actually
three or four of us. And Dr.
mckuen talked earlier about the
role of black lesbians, a little
some people know, the idea of
St. Louis having a black pride
actually came from a group of
black lesbians who brought it to
me at the time that we need to
have our own glide pride. You
know, we ended up creating a
black pride that is a second
oldest in the country, only
second to DC black pride, right
here in St. Louis. So very, so
very proud of it. You're going
to hear from Vincent tuck later,
he also played a very
instrumental role in there, in
terms of the fact of the
starting black pride and in
mobilizing the community to
blame the LGBT community around,
you know, having a black pride
and what they mean for us. And I
found it very interesting to I'm
sorry, I'm getting to it, but
you probably just don't
introductions. I'm sorry. So I'm
gonna stop right there. And
we'll come back. I'm here as
Williams, one of the co founders
of black St. Louis black pride,
currently president and CEO and
co founder of Williamson
associates, which is a public
health agency addressing
minority health disparities.
Monique, why don't you take it?
Okay, I was saying I'll go.
Hi, my name is Monique Maxie.
And so I was thinking as you
are, we're talking because I
don't tend to think of myself
just in terms of an activist.
Um, and not to say that I am
not, but I think that some
people want to, you know, they
see activism in certain ways.
They always think of frontline
people, people that are leading
marches. And so people are, you
know, may often say, Well, what
can I do if I'm not on the front
line, and I think that I have
always been one of those people
is kind of, you know, the person
that I am the work that I chose
to do with Clinical Psychology
kind of thrust you into that
period of being an activist
because you are advocating for
people, you know, and so you
kind of go about and don't
necessarily say, I'm going to
pick this role I'm going to do
this, but to kind of find with
the work that you do, you start
to do those things, and to
become active for your
community. So you know, things
that I'm, I joined black pride
back in the early 2000s, around
2003 or four, I did PR for black
pride. And then I left and went
to went away to grad school and
came back came back last year in
2019, to serve as the chair of
health and wellness. I also did
a couple of queer focus in the
community. And so I would always
say even on stage, you know,
Cool, I believe it's Audrey
Lewis, it says that the personal
is political. And so that's what
begins to happen is that you are
talking about your personal life
and experiences and his
political, you know, the act of
standing on stage. And I will
tell my audiences all the time,
just the act of standing on
stage, professing your love for,
you know, same gender is in and
of itself, a political act. And
so, you know, getting into those
spaces and working with that has
allowed me to fuel and fuel my
activism and do what is needed
to see about change within this
community. So, that's who I am.
I currently work in behavioral
health response and I have a
doctorate in clinical
psychology, emphasis in
forensics in childhood and
adolescence. Okay, Oh,
hey.
Y'all have to pardon me. I have
to unmute my mic. Um, hi
everybody.
My name is Vincent Tucker.
And
Dr. Jeffrey, you mentioned
Fanny's ball. My name is
synonymous with Fanny's ball,
because actually, I am a career
female impersonator of a 35
years. I'm Vicki Valentino. And
so it's I it's it's really
heartwarming to know that you
mentioned Fanny's ball because
I've been actually the host and
emcee and event coordinator for
that for the past 23 years.
And as far as activism, I have
used my platform of
female oppression nation to
galvanize and to interrupt the
program of what female
impersonation is and what it can
be all while supporting those
who have chose to live
alternative lifestyles, whereas
they are trans. Certainly, many
of them have come under my
motherhood, I'll just go ahead
and say that, um, but as far as
being an activist, it has always
been my desire to make sure that
we as African Americans are seen
from another perspective,
because there are so many your
secret sees about who African
American people are, especially
as it relates to female
impersonators. I mean, look at
me, you would never think that
I'm Vicky Valentino, but I am.
And it's my artistry. And I
always encourage individuals to
express themselves the way that
they want to if they want to
Choose a trans lifestyle, make
sure that they've done their
research, and that they've done
all medical investigations as to
how this will transform their
lives totally. And not just for
the stage of my activism with
black pride. I'm one of the
original cofounders of that, and
I'm so very proud of that. And
I'm proud of what it represents.
And most importantly, I'm proud
of EA rise for engaging me in
such a endeavor because I was
just emceeing at clubs and stuff
like that I had a lot of
influence. And I use my
influence in my platform to
galvanize not only African
Americans, but all people, but I
do stand on the shoulders of
those who came before me. And
when you see me, you know that
I'm African American, but with
that being said, You know that I
am intelligent. I'm beautiful.
And I am encouraged by all that
we have done and all the black
people have done to make this
community St. Louis what it is,
and I will never, never lose my
identity as an African American.
Female impersonator, educated
professional, I will never lose
my identity of that. And I'd
also like to introduce myself to
some and present myself to
others, as that be whatever race
you are, black, white, Indian,
Asian, whatever it is, I want
you to know what my identity is
in my advocacy is definitely for
the African American community.
Right. Well, I am great at the
everybody can turn off their
mics because we can have a
dialogue now and I'm really
excited about being on a steam
panel. I've been on so many
panels with your eyes since I've
been in St. Louis. You know,
it's going to be very
interesting. When I'm not able
to have these quick, you know,
conversations with you, but
that's another story for another
day. Um, but I'm really grateful
to like to have like such a
diverse panel and to have these
conversations. And something
that's just sitting with me is a
question that I imagine folks
here might be interested in,
which is, what is black pride
for you? Whether it be what was
it when those early days arise?
What was it for you? And how has
it changed today? Right? Um, you
know, cuz I know some folks who,
you know, who drink the Kool Aid
and say, you know, black pride
is a good time weekend, right?
And so, but then there's others
and I don't mind that that
perspective. But then also, I
think about your work, Monique
in terms of thinking about black
pride as a kind of psychological
or cyclical condition that
counters Right, black pain,
right and blacked out. And just
thinking about that. And then to
your point, right of
entertainment. I mean,
entertainment, not just
entertainment, right? You're
really giving me something. So
I'm wondering, how do you all
see black pride?
I would say this. For me. Black
pride has always been about
community. And in the sense
that, it that's something that's
very unique about us, as black
people in general. When we are
shut out, we go the other way
and create our own thing. You
know, black fraternities and
sororities started that way. And
does black pride started that
way. We did not feel welcomed or
inclusive, in terms of the
dominant cry in black
presencing, Louis, DC, all as a
result of that, it was a saying,
hey, let's do our own thing.
Let's create this for our
community. And it is very unique
in the sense that one of the
good things that came out of
that was it we get to know each
other better. You know, and we,
we and we were able to identify
what our needs were, you know,
and what and what we liked and
how we create a safe space. For
a courageous space. I say
courageous, because within that
whole intersectionality of being
black, in the black community,
but also being gay, lesbian,
bisexual, whatever, a trans, you
know, that really sort of forced
us to, almost in a sense, feel
like we had to make a choice,
you know, but instead of making
a choice, what we did was we
learned how to navigate those
Two Worlds, because there were a
lot of similarities that you
mentioned earlier, a different
bed, a lot of similarities in
terms of the calls and the
activism around African American
American community in general in
the black LGBT community is
so it's so black to me is about
community.
I would say for me, you know, in
terms of thinking about black
pride, I think about when I
first came home from college, so
that was 1998. I'm not too
ashamed to say you know, but
that's when I first came home
from college. And that is what
you begin to, you know, I
started to settle into my
identity, I think I probably
came out about 21 To my mind,
and I'm settling into my
identity. So when you're
settling into your identity, You
look for things to affirm you.
And so that's what I begin to do
is to look and see, look for
queer spaces I know that people
hang out in the Central West in
so I'm gonna hang out there, you
know, I started going to the
left bank books, you know, and I
would just spend hours there
just soaking up, it's just you
know, reaffirming this identity,
this identity is new for me, you
know, and so part of that
development, so you're looking
for that and I'm looking for the
spaces where black queer people
gather you know, so I started
you know, I would look at things
because you are in such twisting
you pick up you know, papers and
flyers, and I see something in
that is advertising like the B
boy Blues Festival, you know,
so, I know B boy blues because
I've read that book. Why did I
read that book cuz it's clear
and it's, you know, and so
feeling.
B boy, okay, but I
want to the first thing
So that's where, you know, I
want it to go where I can start
to celebrate these places of my
identity. So again, it is
community, but it's also you
know, it's finding those who
affirm who you are. And so
whether it is that joy or that
pain, you want someone who has
share experience that is with
you and so to me, that is
ultimately you know, what black
pride is and that is, you know,
how I stumbled upon that, you
know, I stumbled upon B boy
blues which led to finding out
about black pride which led to
me then serving on the board. So
you know, for all of those
things, that's what it is for
me. Awesome.
Okay, and for me back to back.
See it's funny that you
mentioned before blues because
actually our very first event,
black pride from before what
it's known now as black pride.
It was the B boy blues fest.
Yeah, and it was based on the
book. And then we had James Earl
hardy here. And unlike anything
else it was and it was a
opportunity to identify, and to
commune with the writer of this
book because you it was such an
intriguing story to eras and
started we'd be best if we get
to see who wrote this book. And
so can you tell us a little bit
about it for those who might not
be familiar
about the book?
Yeah, just a little bit. You
know, audience members.
tell you a little bit more. I
mean, I have favorites, and it
may get a little x rated. So I
don't want to do that.
We'll just call it one of the
first hip hop gay love stories.
Oh, my God. Yeah.
It was such an explosive thing
because those who didn't read
well, but those who did read the
book, when someone told someone
who didn't read the book and how
excited they were about As you
know, for me, Dr. Maxis, thank
you for bringing that it's it's
affirmation and it's celebration
for me. Um, if I can be on
transparently honest, it's not
like it used to be. And in my
spirituality, I know that things
are going to change and things
are not going to be as they used
to be because some of the
participants who were
instrumental in making it happen
are no longer interested in
sadly some of them are no longer
here. And so we had an
enthusiastic base at that time,
that was unsurpassed and unlike
now, the guards have changed.
Even so the guards have been let
down into the true reality of
celebration that this is
supposed to be. So I do have to
applaud Randy and his team of
people who are trying to
reignite that, but if I can be
totally honest has lost its it's
just lost something from what it
used to be because even around
the country, black brides are
not as they were. And this was
like prior pandemic. So it's not
saying Louis only it's just
black parts period. If I can be
honest, some of the black prides
were sex fest. And that's
unfortunate, but that's what it
was. It was a time to wear
something that you never wore
before just to do your pride
thing. So it was it was
affirmation. It was celebration.
Because during that time, during
the time of black pride, it was
always in the latter part of
August. It was just, you know,
at the end of summer, right in
the midst of summer, it was a
celebration for us to come
together and just be us and
identify ourselves to one
another. And he writes did
mention that we learned so much
about ourselves and learn so
much about each other while
planning this. And then with
that same enthusiasm, we were
able to present something that
exemplify how we think And
people gravitated to that. And
so, I mean, I'm getting excited
about the past, because I live
in the past quite often. But I'm
very, I'm proud of it. I'm proud
of what we, I'm proud of the
little that we had, and the much
that we made out of it, because
please be known, we fought for
the little funding that we had.
But we made such strides in the
little of it to that's black
pride in and of itself, because
black people for a long time
have had to do a lot with a
little. And for that I'm
grateful that well, you know,
I'm grateful for what we were
able to do. And I do applaud
those who are on the frontlines
of attempting to reignite that I
think there needs to be a
revision of it. I don't have
that vision because I'm so old
school. I'm from the you know,
and I don't want to always
inflict my old self into it, you
know what I'm saying? Because
that may not work for the
community now, but it's
celebration for me. It still is.
It'll always be celebration in
my heart.
Yeah. To add to that, Vincent,
um, the thing, I think that when
you talk about change, I think
like you say, we were so happy
and excited for what we were
able to do. Yeah. Now, I think
we're talking about a generation
that is, and this is on both
sides, black and white, that is
very embracing of each other.
And in this whole thing about
diversity and working together
and and what have you that some
of the some of the what we had
in the past Get lost. You did?
Yeah. No, because we were very,
you know, even even, even how we
identify ourselves. The words
are very important, and not to
criticize anybody tonight. Like,
no, I know now, and this is not
just tonight, but even
throughout my conversation,
generally with that millennial
generation. You know, this
identity of queer, you know,
that black LGBT people? That
wasn't a word that we use? Not
at all? What is it? You know?
Yeah.
So it's, you know, it's, it's,
it's unlike you, I just got to
give it up because that's the
bad
gotta get on the train with the
kids.
I know. I want to I want to
interrogate this a little bit.
And people if you have questions
in this area, please put the
questions in in the in the q&a
really right now because I bet
there's some folks out here who
got things to say about how
we're characterizing the
contemporary and, you know, I
am, you know, between a young
somewhere between and so, my
opinion is, you know, there's
really great nostalgia for the
past and you're right, I love
what you were saying you rise
around like Things that we used
to need, because we would, I
don't know about you, I was
desperate for community like it
was like, Oh, no, nobody, that's
the only time I'm gonna get
some. Right, like, like, one
time I would get some some books
right or whatever. But you know,
and I was clear, right? This is
where I'm gonna get all the love
for my year. Right? And this at
this in this space right that
was Chicago for me. Right. And I
came to St. Louis a couple
times. But what I see now is
there is a kind of, almost like
it's obsolete for a lot of young
people where they're like, we we
get together at so and so's
house every week. Yeah, oh, we
you know, we hang out in the
grove every week or attitudes
when it was around I like like,
like, we're attitudes on
Thursday. We commute we have a
good time. We feel like we get
community and then we go and
hang out some more. And so when
you say Oh, We need like cry.
They're like, what do we need?
We got pride. Right? Right. So
So I'm wondering if there's a
changing language, right? That
the idea of pride, even for
white young people, Mm hmm. I
actually take on some new
dimensions now where people need
something else. Right? Um, and I
don't know what it is exactly. I
imagine for black people
actually, interestingly, this
actually may be a coalitional
possibility thinking about what
I was saying earlier around this
moment, where we're feeling a
lot of black pain and doubt,
right? I feel like saying loud
I'm black and I'm proud needs to
come back now because of like,
people trying to annihilate.
Right us right like it's
literally kill us. Right. And we
know HIV AIDS ravaged our
community, but also poverty,
other diseases, right. Heart,
heart. So many of my friends
died of heart failure in the
30s. Right? Was that stress?
Right. So I'm wondering if there
might be new Lang like, Do you
find that some young people on
Monday? I know you work a lot
with young people, right? What
do you find? Is the new language
that young people are using to
talk about their identities?
Or is their new language? Or is
it just different?
Oh, no, there's a lot, you know,
there there is there's a lot of
new language and i think i think
that you are absolutely right,
you know, there is this
generation gap, you know, and
also in the way I mean, it, you
see, it permeated throughout
those. So, what, when one
generation doesn't see what the
other generation is doing?
Perhaps, you know, it came up
because we were having a
discussion about like meetings
and protests, and you know, and
so some one from an older
generation was saying that they
didn't see anyone that was you
know, trans or non binary Be
involved in the protests. And so
then the other generation was
like, What do you mean? Like,
that's who organizes it? So it
just seems to be a communication
gap of what is needed. And, you
know, we need people to come in
to fill in those gaps. So, like
you said, we know it's
something, but without us coming
together to the table to discuss
what that something is. It's
like, you know, we are missing
it, because you're right, like
you said, we have more, you
know, at that time, like, when I
go back to talking about my, I
didn't know any other queer
people, you know, you now that's
not the case. You see, you know,
you see all familiar with so
many queer people, we
fellowship, you know, whereas I
was hungry for that fellowship,
you know, like you said, we meet
every night You know, for drinks
here and there. So, what is it
that we can give them you know,
um, other than that initial
sense of community to continue
to foster that black pride and
what you said about also we have
having the black pain as well
simultaneously with the, with
the black pride, like we still
need to offer spaces for that.
Because as much as we are
celebrating, you know, there
there there are also spaces of
pain even when we talk about
Black Lives Matter movement, you
have some people that are
opposed, even though it was
started by poor women, you know,
that are that have something to
say when we say black trans
Lives Matter, or, you know,
including people in that they're
still a big division. And that
is something that that is
affecting us all whether we have
our friends on Thursday night so
we got our own groups. We're
still having problems coming
together in that round. So we
need to have conversations about
how do we fill up this gap?
That is so true. In different
say, interesting you brought up,
you know, the phrase a lot on
black and brown. About 25 years
ago, the National Black gay
Lesbian Task Force did this
national report survey. And it
was it was entitled say loud on
black number three. And the
thing I remember from that
report is how they talk about
all those social determinants,
not just our identity, this
black game is being trans
people, but those social
determinants that impacted us,
you know, in terms of employment
school, and how homophobia can
sciples those stifle this, you
know, in trying to pursue those
things, and, and those things
still exist, I think, you know,
but I think our young people as
Monique mentioned, they have a
different way of dealing with
it. Now. They they're there.
more vocal about it, you know,
you have the right. Right? Yeah,
you're not gonna take this from
me is what I have, right? Like
anybody here is who I know, you
know. And whereas for my
generation, I can speak for my
generation, by generation when I
was coming up. I remember there
was a movie called boys in the
vein. And that was one black
character in that movie. It was
based, like in the 70s. I think
I was like, 12 years old. I
don't even know that was gay.
But it was something about that
black guy unit movie, he was
attracted, but it was about him.
I was so proud of him, because
he was present himself as a gay
man. And it was a gay man that I
hadn't seen before. The type of
gay man I hadn't seen before. So
we were desperate for those kind
of images. And now we just have
a smorgasbord of images right?
Like, like your eyes, I think
that's really important. I'm
just trying to figure it out,
you know, cuz DC is a different
type of black pride, right? It
has been, but it's partially
because it's resourced in a
different kind of way. Right.
But, but, but part of what I
just heard you said that was
really interesting and kind of
like, I'm like, Randy, I'm gonna
give this to you. What would it
mean really, to take seriously
this idea? And there's some
folks that have some problem
with me saying this, but I
actually think this is true. All
across the city, when I'm
talking to talking to people on
the phones, when I'm going into
restaurants, when I'm going into
the library, the museum, there
is some queer person who is
there was hired because people
entrusted with them, you know,
this type of responsibility
because there's Southern law.
When you go to get tested there,
there are these these queer folk
who are in the front who are
charisma, all this stuff, right?
And DC does this thing where
they have like actual jobs and
corporations that are hiring
people, right? Under the idea
that we are good fierce workers,
because of our mini social
determinants that make us
fierce, right? I'm interested in
what it might mean to partner
with some of those same people,
the centers and all these other
folks in square and all these
wash you even right, bringing
them to the fold. And saying,
like, we not only just doing
pride, but we actually saying,
we already know we got it. And
we want you to know that we
bring in resumes and everything,
you know, in addition to a party
and having fun. We also are
trying to create this kind of
space where you understand the
value of us, right? And that
really just just came to me as
something that's really, really
might be powerful and rich. So
Randy, take that note. You know,
there's many Folks, I'm sure I
look for us busy want to say
something? I'm simonsson?
No, it's and you know, and I
hate to be the Debbie Downer on
this. But as things have
changed, and we're in this
generational gap there convexity
thanks for mentioning that
because I'm trying to really
understand it, because what is
happening, it's not like, in my
generation, there weren't what
I'm about to mention. But it
seems like now, in order to be
in, you have to be a participant
in this and it's, it's like
drugs, drugs. And these
recreational drugs have just
diminished the willpower to
really want to do something
worthwhile. I mean, you can
always get agitated about what
we see on the news and Black
Lives Matter, you know, and
everything that is happening,
you know, the Breanna Taylor,
the George Foreman, that sort of
thing. The yes gate like people
are Internally angry about that.
But many of the youngsters use
drugs as an escape so they don't
have to think about it. They
don't have to. They don't have
to articulate their feelings
other than anger into engage
them in anything that's positive
in terms of what we would like
to do, or how we would like to
see black pride to be because
black pride was not just a
festival of just coming out and
having fun. We, in the past, we
had workshops and people came to
the workshops, we had jazz
brunch, we had a myriad of
opportunities for us, you know,
if you didn't enjoy this part of
it, then you came to this part
only. But then the next time you
heard about how good this part
was, and so each year, you know
it was compound, you know,
compounded with more people
coming to participate because
not only did we have, you know,
a festival in the park where
there was music, but we had
intimate conversations that
around say we were I was I can
remember we will with the plates
on Dale Moore, some of the best
black pride times were held at
those times. tables, there were
tears, fears, everything was
just dismantled at that time.
And I was able to capture so
many emotions from that. And I
was able to display that emotion
to people that I came in contact
with, which made me want to be
more, more I want to be a better
and a bigger part of it. But now
I can't reach those people. Like
I could before. Yes, I'm older.
I'm in my 50s. I understand
that. But this this notion that
drugs takes you higher, when it
actually brings you lower to the
understanding and the plight of
what's really going on around
you is what hardens my heart.
You know what I mean? Because
I'm unable to do what I used to
do and I beat myself up as what
is it that I can do to turn this
situation around? So, to be
honest with you guys, I've
resigned in a in a way because
it grieves my spirit, more so
than anything but in No way does
it grieve the my idea of what
black pride can be but I don't
know what that is. And it's
because of like you said, Dr.
Maxi that generational gap. I
don't know. I mean, I just don't
know.
I don't know what he's done. But
I heard it right. Like, like,
even what you said, I heard the
generational gap, right? Like
this this presumption of like,
you know, of course I gotta, you
know, I'm trying to like fill in
the gap a little bit for for my
young, my young folk, right? Who
will say it's not about
suppressing your the reality the
social realities of black people
like we know, we know what's
going on, right? It's about I
want to fucking smoke weed.
Yeah, like the Missouri History
Museum. I gotta remember like,
you know, but you know, you
know, I want to I want to smoke
weed but but but this is this is
this is the thing, right? It's
not always attached to some
pathology, right, like, so I'm
trying to get us away from this.
I know that the maximum You
might disagree with me a little
bit on this, but like, I don't
think every person who is
engaging in recreational drugs,
is it, okay, is necessarily
trying to feed a loss or void,
right? Some folks are really
engaging and something
recreational, the same way than
white people get to the place
where they do that as well.
Here's the thing, though, what I
feel for the investor is this.
There is something about these
patterns, though, that we see.
Like over and over again. No,
I'm but I have mentees who I
told you to get up for that job
interview. Right. And they
haven't figured out how to be a
functional smoking person. You
know, I had a grandfather who
drank he was a functional
alcoholic. Right? Oh, no, but
you know, like generation. All
right, right. Right. But but but
but but being functional seems
to be very good. difficult but
what I want to say is, I think
functionality is difficult
because of the fierce world in
which they're actually living.
Right. Like, like asking them to
be functional. In this is St.
Louis specifically because we
haven't really, this is where I
want to go next. Right? There's
this folks who are asking
questions about St. Louis
specific, right? We gotta be
real about the context of St.
Louis. And, and and that that
many of our young people have
grown up with I can't tell you
how many times I said, You're
from St. Louis, how do you like
St. Louis Chao? I'm like, wait a
minute, this is your study, you
know, Chicago, he will be like,
Chicago baby shot. Now, which
project, right? There's
something happening here about
this kind of malaise and
limitation, around
understandings of St. Louis as a
place that has these divisions
and I know what it is because
they say it every time. I grew
up On that side, Mm hmm. Right.
And it's almost like it's in the
water. But it really is in white
people's DNA, like white people
have actually created this
narrative of the north side as
being unproductive disease, you
know, covid written, right? All
these things that we're hearing
Now, over and over again. And I
think that we, in some ways,
embrace some of that, right?
Some people have embraced that,
and then not mobile, right? So
it's not the weed to me. It's
actually the imagination is
limited, right? Like, you all
seem to have had some radical
imaginations. And I'm wondering,
why did you have radical
imaginations in the 80s? What
was it about?
Well, I could say this, like,
you know, one of one of our
struggles was, I guess, in the
latter part, not the initial
because it was something that we
when we launched the Blues
Festival and it also became
Black Friday, when people got a
taste of the DC the Chicago the
Atlanta prize, And all of that,
and they saw the vast number of
people that they've never seen
before that they can probably be
someone else when they go there,
they would see that that and
they would identify that as the
best price. So when it came to
home, you forgot that before you
ever saw that this is what you
had. So that's always been my
challenge to say that. And one
of the one of the slogans that
we adopted was, this is our
city, our pride, go to Chicago
and all that you've got to take
on, you've got to take on that
belief that this is what we
have. And I was, you know, I was
really adamant about that when I
suggested that slogan to our
board, because I want you to
come with the mindset that this
is St. Louis, this is what we
have to offer. These are the
resources that we have. If you
go to those other places, find
out what those resources are and
see if we can tap into that
rather than tear down your own
city because I'm totally
offended and I've got offended a
lot of times by that you know
what I mean? Because I
understand I've been a part of
all of the prime across the
country. But I always had a
pride a super pride not because
what I was one of the co
founders, but I had a super
proud about my own city. And I
tried to change that narrative
and tried to change that mindset
with a lot of the people who
participated in our pride did a
little bit, but I mean, I don't
know how much um, how much how
much it did, but I, you know,
reversing that all the time,
made me feel better about what
we were accomplishing here. And
it's funny that you say that to
do because people tend to down
St. Louis, when they go to other
places where they can't afford
to live, and they're living a
superficial life that they can't
afford. You're gonna mean
they'll go to Atlanta, I can't.
That's why they'll do bond
vityaz parties Oh, she's moving
to so and so on. So I don't go
to those because I know and less
than a year or so or a couple of
years, you got to be right back
here. You say you still Whereas
I go to the state as well,
because you went somewhere where
you can't, you couldn't get a
job. You couldn't get a job here
either. Because that was because
of your identity and what your
mindset was when you went down
there and thought that you were
going to be the superhero. So
they always have negative things
to say about St. Louis, but
always wind up coming back here.
And that's unfortunate as well.
And that's, yeah,
yeah. So I someone just told me
that we got about 10 minutes. I
can't believe it, but like, I
thought we're going to eight.
So, um, so so that city pride is
interesting, like what you were
saying about like, the city and
city pride, right? Our city our
pride. That may be something
Randy to think about as well. I
mean, I know this is not just a
debriefing to figure out how we
can get this together. I just
think that it's this is
important information and why
would you have the T shirts? Oh,
well, we might need to bring
those back. You know.
I started to put mine on. I
couldn't find it. I guess
My treasure. It's a black t
shirt and it's written in white,
our city,
our project. Well, that's a
blessing that you could still
fit it.
Bless you, bless you.
It's a medium.
Well, okay.
Okay, so I got a, um, many
people said, but can we go to a
because they have more questions
and I think I'm okay with that.
You know, the historical
Missouri has. Okay, that's my, I
got it. I got it. Yes. Thank
you. Okay, great, beautiful. So
I got more questions then. But I
think Monique wants to say
something about this, this this,
like, what's different about
pride?
Am I right? Oh, no, I was just I
was looking at the q&a seeing
that we had the questions that
was a I did have something to
say about this. But you know,
I'm gonna forget it and come
back to it. If I could. Ma'am.
So, I really want I think
there's gonna be a follow up to
this and I'm going to get to my
good friends question here too.
But I think there's a, there's
gonna be a follow up. I gotta
ask ethically I think it's
important that I asked question
ethically and I think this
amount of froze, but I'm hoping
he comes back. There you go,
there you go, there you go.
So
might also be that the
conditions of the last decade
for black people have made
sexuality a kind of
subterranean, you know,
tertiary. Right, like, like,
like, we got all this going on
y'all. The social determinants
are real, like the injuries of
inequality are a real
coming to your pride.
I'm trying to make some money.
I'm trying to, you know, I'm
trying to do other things. Could
it be possible that the that
that the racist anti black world
has created some problems for us
in terms of how we are able to
do prime? Maybe we need to have
pride throughout the year
instead of having a one time,
right? I don't know. But, I
mean, what do people think about
that? I see young people
stressed out.
I want to I want to say this, I
was you know, I was telling
Randy this before, like, we
weren't very brief. I was going
to random like, a lot of times
we have this idea about planning
so much, and planning so many
activities that people are
stretching themselves as to
which one I'm going to attend. I
think there should be one powwow
in that be it and in that power
while strategically implement
everything Every because you're
not going to successfully
accomplish all that you set out
to do. But I think when you give
me too many options, then I
refuse them all mentally in the
back of my mind. Hmm. So I mean,
I think with this, I think there
needs to be like one power while
and then just let that be it.
That's my opinion.
I captions Go ahead.
I was just gonna say I agree
with Vincent on that, but I
think the I think having a like
Dr.
McCune as I
said earlier of having it
throughout the year, maybe one
powwow in the spring one hour in
the winter, you know, because
you have to kind of come back in
and talk about next steps that
you know, once you need that
space is a good friend of mine
to say Probably young, black gay
and lesbian folks are concerned,
a new group come out each year.
There's a new little a new batch
of them coming. He you know, so
um, yeah. So I think maybe
throughout the year maybe
instead of just that once a
year,
and I think that we need more
you give me more use. Um, I feel
that one of the largest problems
is that people see it to be,
they don't see black pride is
there. It's like something that
we as parents put on for the
kid, right. You know, they saw
the kids rebel because they have
a party. get what I'm saying.
Even though meetings are open,
things are open. There needs to
be an active pool to say this is
yours, too. I think that's
Really what a so you know, even
when you do go to other cities,
people have other people have
things, even if it's under the
black pride, but maybe I don't
know, the kitty cat girls may
have something and then this
group has something. So they
feel like it's not just an
overarching governing body of
black pride telling you what to
do. And I think that that is one
of the things that, you know,
has made, you know, not not the
only thing, but it's definitely
a large component. You know, I
think the other thing that you
were you were talking about with
the pride in your city, you
know, there is, I mean, we just
we're gonna have a lot to do
with that, you know, as far as
like bringing back and uplifting
it to be our city, but I
definitely feel like a lot of
people feel like pride is kind
of thrown upon them and they
don't have ownership and pride.
Yeah, and I imagine also, the
other thing that happens in
every city right is the
comparative. I used to be on the
St. Louis pride, pride STL. And,
you know, there's always
comparative between the large
scale pride and our pride.
Right? And which makes you know,
and so part of me actually, you
know, my argument with with
pride STL was that this kind of
becomes racist in its formation,
right? That if we're not
partnering with black prime,
we're not partnering with MTA.
We're not partnering with all
these organizations in a way
that actually helps fund right
and give them a type of
resources that could expand, we
are actually not doing the good
work, right. And I left because
of that mostly, right. Also,
because I was leaving St. Louis,
but like, also, just because I
just get tired, right? And part
of me and I was only there for
like, six months, I think, but
like, anyway, my point was just
to say that, you know, I think
we got to really figure out what
is the black pride brand and
this is not about Randy or in
his leadership or anybody else's
leadership. It's about, you
know, what is the brand and I'm
not even talking about Just the
institution of black pride. What
is the thing that makes like
when we do a ball? What is the
black pride ball and who is
sponsoring it? Because it can't
be me and nobody gonna come up I
host a black I'm sorry, it's not
gonna come it's not it's not my
thing. But I bet you if you get
passed to so and so couple with
you know, 19 year old Joe who
works for the spot and then you
get 25 year old stones so
together and they partner
they're bringing the different
people you might have, you might
be be surprised at what kind of
partnerships can be created. Um,
but I do also know that you
know, there's many barriers
right between the generations as
you said, Monique, that make it
very difficult. But I think that
opened the door is just the
first is the first step and I'm
sure that many people in black
pray have already tried to do
some of this on some level but
That figuring out just being
honest about I mean, I'll tell
you just being on prime STL,
what I learned is they kind of
know who are the people who go
and bring the bodies, right. And
they keep those people. Right.
And it's so so interesting to
kind of start asking questions
around who can bring the
community together? Because I'm
sorry, Thursday nights. I'm a
never been low attitudes ever.
Like, I tried to get in once I
was like, Corolla, y'all. How
could y'all know I'm not going
to. But that's amazing, right
energy of that. So anyway,
that's one thing I want to say.
But I want to ask this question
from good friend. Oh, sorry,
guys,
before we before we do that, I
wanted to go back to what you
said earlier, about, you know,
with the whole Black Lives
Matters and COVID and all of
that maybe help you to be proud
about thinking about My own
experience because I came up
during the HIV AIDS, the
beginning of the HIV AIDS
epidemic. And not only did we
come out, so to speak, you know,
to the world in terms of
identity, but we had to face and
deal with this thing called
AIDS. And then for the black
community at the same time, we
also do this thing called crack,
you know, and how that was
impacting our communities. Be
you straight, gay, trans,
whatever it may have been. But
somehow, through all of that,
all of the depth, all of the
sickness, we found a way to be
resilient, and say, I am who I
am. And I am proud of who I am.
And I want to create a community
for people like me. So I hear
you, Jeff, will you talk about
some of the challenges that
young people have and I
empathize because I'm going
through it to know None of us
are exempt now, but I'm just
wondering what happened to that
resiliency, you know, that we've
had like back in the 80s to even
get us to where we are today.
Climate change,
climate change, right.
Climate change, I don't mean
like the, the weather climate
change in the, in the sense of
our, you know, I think arise and
you know, and I always go back
to how things were. It's
interesting to see how things
have changed and they change
drastically. I'm Jeff in Vietnam
that Randy has done his due
diligence, we're trying to
invite people to the table to
discuss and Dr. Maxie, that has
been done. Thank you for
acknowledging that because I
think he has done that he
himself. I mean, we've always
had like young, entrepreneurial,
inspirational youth leaders who
have guided on the success of
black pride. You know, you You
know, with our tools as much as
possible, but they were able to
pave avenues that arise in
myself and Dr. Green and Mr.
Green and so many others from
the originals weren't able to
do. I mentioned like Anthony
Galloway, Anthony Galloway was
able to galvanize a different
type of people on that,
and still is, yeah, he was.
He was he was very young. He was
very young when he was when he
did that. And we, you know, he
was on and Mr. Green, and Tanya,
those originals,
originals, um, we stepped aside
and just let them do it. You
know what I mean? And
I just want i i,
and he's been away for so long.
So he's lost the climate of what
goes on here because he's in
Chicago. So what's a bigger
resource and all of that sort of
thing. So it's kind of
different. So, actually, to
consult him would not be
something That will be affected
for us as we stand now. But I do
believe and it's funny that you
say that mainly, Jeff is the one
who galvanize all those young
people on Thursday night. That's
my niece. I love that she and
she's actually part of the
people. She's an Iraqi remember,
she was a black pirate queen.
Yes, she was like very young.
She was almost she was like 18.
And she was one of the ones that
was empowered to change this
climate. And I think, you know,
to Dr. Max's point, I think
everybody needs something. In
order to make this work, like, I
don't need a ball, although I
can go but some people might not
need a ball just like people
don't like to do pageants and
drag. But that's a GIF. May I
say this? By cried, attempted
that. And it brought about a
separation that we did.
anticipate because it was like a
group of lesbians who had this
party and they didn't want to
consult black prod about it as
if we didn't matter. We had to
know something about it, but we
didn't know anything about it.
And then there was like five or
six different parties that came
up and they were not they were
not cohesive in terms of what
our goal was. And then that's
where the separation came. Dr.
Mac, so you don't i'm saying
i remember Yeah. And
and that that's the unfortunate
thing about giving people a
piece of it. There has to be one
piece that we all come together
and then I think with the plight
that we're experiencing now with
the black lives like Black Lives
Matter movement and so much
oppression and suppression
around that. There needs to be
something that poignant and
positive. Do you don't mean I
don't want to go with the whoa
is me the wall was black people
play. I want to come to
something that Lift me up. Um
and I'm sorry I'm not going to
raise my face like that. I'm
just not going to do that
because that's not my feeling at
this time. My feeling is not my
fist, it's just not it's my
heart and I want to see us love
each other first, before we can
combat any of the other things
that are surrounding us. We must
love each other for for first
and when we do that, I believe
that the forces of love will
overcome a lot of the resistance
that we see amongst the brother
in and amongst the oppressing
that black people receive in the
city. We start loving one
another and we have a climate
that embraces that. I think we
would fare better and what we
term is black pride. I think we
need to start loving ourselves
first and loving each other.
That's okay so that
now Now you're going down my
lane, look at you go down.
I will say we we've done this
That actually is a little
slightly antithetical to
history. Right? Like, like, the
more we love each other, the
more they kill us, right? Like,
like, so this is not, I mean,
Obama, the Obama moment was a
moment of too much. Black love,
it was too much, right. And so
So, history shows us, we can do
both. We can walk and chew gum
at the same time and I agree
with you. We have to love each
other more. I think the most
radical act that we can do as
black queer folk is just keep
loving on each other.
Do it all because you know what
to be honest with you guys are
transparent. I'm, I'm beginning
and I've wondered this for a
long time. When is Black Lives
gonna matter to black people?
Well,
I think that I think I need I
need the resolution to that
question. Not that I'm not.
Well, okay, there's, there's a
different there's a different
debate, but I will say, I will
say we are already us living
right is recognition. Black
Lives Lives Matter, right? what
we're doing right now, what
these young people are doing.
Even sometimes I think even
things that we are calling, you
know, taboo or trivial, right?
are ways in which people are
trying to survive and live and
say their lives matter to them
so much that they need to not
engage in the violence of the
world in particular ways, right?
Thinking about, you know, what
you said about earlier about
weed and drugs, right? There's
some of that is about, how can I
live in this world amongst my
brother and sister in, right,
how can I do that? Right? And
I'm not trying to like, so I
push back against this all the
time, because I get this
conversation all the time. As
you can imagine, that we don't
love each other enough, but all
I see is love amongst black
people in the midst of despair
and antagonism. Now, I will say,
I also see self loathing, I see
us embrace anti blackness in
ourselves. But here's the thing,
if there was no anti blackness
being pushed on us. Right? We
would have less anti blackness
within us. Right? You know, I'm
saying like, like it just the
way it goes. It and I hate to
say it doesn't go the opposite
way, right? It's not that we, we
come, we were we were human. And
then we were made black, which
meant we were less than the
white, right? That was a
construction that was something
that was created in order to
create this thing that we are
now in where we even need a
black pride, because the truth
of the matter is,
we really shouldn't need
a black pride. Right. So so some
of what you're saying I agree
with, we gotta love. That's the
most radical act that we can
have. But we also can't let
white folks off the hook. I
don't know, in a long legacy of
anti blackness, that
unfortunately, when we were
slaves we couldn't fight
against. Right, right it is and
we did fight against it, but we
couldn't fully fight because the
laws made it Such where it was
legal. Okay, what do you
believe? Do
you believe this like, with
there's so with,
with there being so much
and I'll just say black on black
animosity toward each other and
especially in the LGBT
community, because there's a lot
of it. And the exposure to it is
limited to whatever it lands or
highs that you're looking
through. But it's extreme. And
until we can
get it right. Because Yeah,
because we're in it. Well, yeah,
well, so of course we see it at
a heightened degree in white
communities baby I'd be like
they all love each other.
I brought in see the thing is,
unfortunately we we treat people
how to treat us, you know, to
me, and so there are I have
white counterparts who I don't
even look at the fact that
they're white. I internalized
the fact that they're white and
all of that and they properly as
long as they don't cross lungs.
They don't cross that. That
River. You We're fine. But I
just think there has to be a
coming together of ourselves
first before we can present
anything positive to the world
in terms of a community, and I'm
speaking exclusively for St.
Louis. Yeah, you know, I don't
speak for any. I speak for our
city. Yeah. Because I've been
such a part of it for so long.
From since I was 13 years old.
Yeah, you're in my 50s now, so
it's been consistent across the
board. So I've seen like so
much. And things have changed
from old school like house
music. He rises a house music
head who loves house music other
than our generation, you know, I
mean, but this generation now
loves rap music and trap music.
I don't like that.
But I love that music.
And one of the best functions
will be a trap music, a trap
music event. You have tons of
people over their dinner, just
be me. Right me Rising by five
other hands in the House Music
playing Music all night long do
not Trap Music just so we're
clear
just to be clear, hey. So, let
me say this I think that was
really beautiful is that you
know activists activate right
and I have activated right
something in St. Louis that that
places you in this panel but
also places you in this world
right you are still alive
because you have activated so
the manifest is something that
is that is that is beyond
description, right that is not
that does not able to be
measured. Right. And, and what I
want to say is, I think we all
go in and out of our activation
and our recognition of the
greatness of who we are and what
black pride has always been. Is
is see is the process of
seeking, right? The greatness of
blackness, right it can make it
is great, right? We know being
black is great, we are great
people. But we want to, we want
to emphasize that we want to
activate that in the young
people and in ourselves. And so
I think we could, well, I want
to say is that I think that we
can really begin to think
differently about our history.
In terms of black pride, um, if
we really begin to always push
the narrative, right, like and
control the narrative even,
right, and when I say control
the narrative, I mean, like, I
mean, everybody was talking
about how fractured our
community is. But the reality
is, I'm gonna I'm gonna go back
to it. There is a black pride
that is happening. It's just not
necessarily happening in the
places where we want them to.
Right. And my question is, how
do we get the big prize? Sure,
well, how do we get different
spurts right and how can we be
satisfied with With that,
Jeffrey, we need money. And that
that let me say this, that more
than anything because if we had
money and the resources that we
got the general pride have to do
bill stages, because I'm an
entertainment person. I you
know, I I know the dynamic of
that if we had money because as
I said in the beginning, I'm
black pride had this much, but
we made this much happen. But we
had this much. And I always
wondered, and I always prayed if
we had the budget.
Yes,
there was something that we
could do that could bring
everybody together not only
that, it would galvanize white
people to understand that we
have a culture that is
culturally different now I can
say this. I have enjoyed some of
the main prize. I surprisingly,
I've had a blast Adam, but what
are we What made me enjoy it was
seeing so many people together
and seeing all of these
structures of grantor for gay
people. Yeah, you know, there
would be straight passers by
look like oh my god got to go
over there. Oh my gosh, ah, they
haven't a block left over there
you don't have me. And I, I know
what that draws that draws
attention and interest, even if
you weren't interested in it at
first, you are inquisitive about
what's going on here. But we
need money to make that happen.
And if we had, the
audience hears that, we black
pride needs money and
it has to and the money has to
be curated and it has to be
managed by someone who knows
what they're doing, you know, to
place it where because I believe
if we were able to afford the
rights couple of celebrities
here for a black pride function,
it would change The course of
this city I'm not talking about
the other cities. And I'm not
talking about Jennifer Holliday.
That's not what I'm talking
about. I'm not talking about
Martha wash. I'm talking about
the people of today. Yeah, yeah,
maybe Jennifer that we enjoy.
And you know what I'm saying?
Because we always want to bring
Martha and I love those. Those
are my generation girls. I love
them. But these young people
don't want to see that. Yeah,
they definitely will. Because I
mean, this day and age a
personality, you know, that is
ultimately what is going to you
know, sell this personality and
so bringing you want to bring
where two people are you bring
the relevant celebrity
because
that's where we are.
And you have the audience of
even us. Oh, here's we're gonna
say okay, well let me see
something about Thompson.
Thompson.
We just need the money. Yeah.
I think you guys yeah. piggyback
on it, and I know we about the
right time to do it. So I'm
gonna say it real quick. Um,
my beef, if I had, if I had a
beef with the black LGBT
community, it would be. And this
is through my work with HIV AIDS
and trying to provide resources
and even working with black
pride is that there are people
and I know some of these people
domain names. There are people
who are well off in the city of
St. Louis, black gay lesbian
people
who don't come out
I'm gonna and I'm not even
asking him to come out. I'm just
saying you know what the issues
are?
Give a little bit you know,
write a check,
have a fundraiser, you know, but
they they in my hand too, right?
That's why we in America, you
can
do it. I just wanted I wanted to
add, see when when you Like the
comment was made about, we need
to love ourselves at this event.
This is what loving ourselves
look like, because sometimes you
have that money, but you don't
want it to go to us, right now
you want it to go to them. And
so you know, so, you know, when
we talk about loving ourselves,
it comes from all different
places, I really don't feel that
there has to be a demand on both
measure that we shall have self
love to prove our own worth.
Right, especially when our work
has been deemed less than by
those outside of us. That's like
putting the foot on our neck and
then asking us to rise up. Yeah,
okay, you know, so that so, you
know, sometimes I see that it's
much if you if you are loving in
and of yourself that comes in
different forms and one of those
can be pouring back into your
own community and not you know,
those of us who have Just wanted
what are they? Who are they
afraid? Are they afraid to give
to a particular organization for
fear of their you know?
I'm pissed off now.
Bad black gay.
I didn't know they were here
looking for things.
Man, I don't even think it's so
much fear as it is. It's just
metaphor. Yeah, it's not about
it's not even in their, in their
mind, you know that this is
something I should be doing.
They hear they hear the news
reports they know what
statistics are. They they hear
about the trans violence that
happened to black trans people
and I see but you know, it just
is there they
are they people with a couple of
hundred dollars or they
philandering I'm talking
about, I'm telling not only
folks who have money, I'm not
people who have something else
that we take for granted power
and influence. You know, they
can influence policy. We talk
about making change in a
community policy issues in like
Dr. Jeff talked about those
social determinants, they can
have an impact on someone else.
Well, let's
just remember this is not a
historical like, like, we know
that the history we have of this
black queer communities has been
even you think about the Harlem
Renaissance, right? There has to
be some incentive for connecting
with the production of some of
the work, right. We just got a
romance in marsay. a book by
Claude McKay just came out this
year in 2020. That was written
in 1935, I think, right. But
that book couldn't come into
fruition because it didn't have
sponsorship. It didn't Anybody
who said, you know, this is
necessary important, right? So,
so we got to figure out how to
get this as soon as but I want
to ask last question. You all
have been great, thank you so
much for giving your time to
this, this event and for sharing
some of these stories and give
us your heart. And someone asked
the question, what is one story
or lesson from black LGBTQ
history in St. Louis, that you
would like to pass down to
future generations? What keeps
you going? What keeps you
moving? Something that that
happened to you something that
as a person, you know, give it
to me in it, give me a you're
thinking I'm giving you a moment
to think about it and give it to
me in 45 seconds. So, um, you
know, what of St. Louis just
keeps you going and keeps you
having the kind of expression of
black pride that each of you are
shows. So So Well,
I would say for me, it's the
intergeneration analogy. Older
people, show me the way.
And I still talk to some of
them. So they're still leading
me. I respect my elders, it's
the elders. Right.
I think for a
while, so say for me, I think if
you want to say not a lesson,
but just things to pass down in
history, I just remember coming
up
during a time
of great black gay clubs. Great,
you know, so 747 is this
something that you know, I will
want to pass down because we
don't have anything like that
anymore. And that was truly a
special time. It was, you know,
special for me knowing where can
I go? You know, that speaks to
me, that speaks to me as an
African American lesbian. So if
you know like you I said,
talking to elders, I'm not I'm
not an elder, I'll punch you in
the face. I'm talking to people
about their past experiences,
you know of nightlife and club
life. That's really a great
history lesson in itself.
And for me, for several years
prior to this episode, like I
used to give a program called
the Black achievers awards, and
it went already remember it went
off for like, seven years and it
was the one time that every
facet of the black community
came together. And you know why?
Because we were able to award
and appreciate people for what
they have done. And what I
applaud about this new black
pride is those those, those that
award ceremony, nothing feels
you fills your heart with mud,
with more gratitude than being
appreciated and shown
appreciation but even during,
like the black achievers awards
that Shayla Simpson and I did
for several years, you know,
even at the black rep theatre,
it was a time that I included
everybody. Everybody was a part
of that. Do you remember that
Dr. Maxi at all the black
achievers awards, everybody was
part of it. And it's not until
we start coming together to
publicly appreciate one another,
and show admiration for what
we've accomplished in our own
individual lives and integral
aspects of us being gay because
everybody is not in the same
aspect of gayness. I don't
believe that. I'm in a different
aspect. You're in a different
aspect, but there's one, at
least common ground that we can
all come together and that is to
be appreciated and shown
appreciation. That's what I want
to pass down. Let's start
appreciating one another and
showing it publicly. I always
tell my children you know, as a
you know, mother, the female
personation community We praise
in public, and we punish in
private.
And so I want to praise each and
every one of you all for making
history in your own way. There
will be annals of history that
will have your names on it. In
St. Louis has being a part of
it. You as you know, your your
name is already in, in the
history books. I mean, you know,
my answer to the question was,
the question was to everybody
and my answer to the question
was, you know, he rise Williams
when I first came here was such
a figure, and so humble and so
sweet. And I was inspired to
join this community, partially
because of the work that you
were doing. That told me that
St. Louis wasn't just any old
place, right? I think it was
Shanti pareek, who introduced me
to you, but all of you all have
just Showing us today that you
are a wellspring of history
inside of yourself. But you're
also making history in every way
possible. And so I just want to
say thank you. And I'm sure that
everyone who attended and
attendees here will also thank
you. And I will hand it back
over to.
Yeah, I want to say thank you as
well. Thank you to all of you on
the panel for sharing, not only
your time, but as Jefferson your
hearts and being so candid with
us tonight. Really appreciate
that and all of your
perspectives. appreciate
everybody who tuned in. We do
have two to three STL history
live programs every week, so be
sure to check that lineup. It's
mo history.org. You can look
under the events there, or under
the events on our misery History
Museum Facebook page. So
definitely hope to see you again
soon. And thanks again to all of
our panelists. Have a great
night, everyone.
Thank you. Bye. Bye.
Bye, everyone. See you Bye
