MATTHEW HENDERSHOT: Please
give a warm Google welcome
this morning to Questlove.
[APPLAUSE]
AHMIR THOMPSON:
What's up, y'all?
MATTHEW HENDERSHOT:
Good morning.
Thanks for taking
the time to join us.
AHMIR THOMPSON: Thank
you for having me.
MATTHEW HENDERSHOT: They didn't
keep you up too late last night
celebrating your
appearance on "Fallon"?
AHMIR THOMPSON: No, no, no.
But I probably went
to bed at 4:30.
And I got up at 7:00.
MATTHEW HENDERSHOT:
There you go.
It seems like just the
right amount of time.
AHMIR THOMPSON: I know people
think I'm joking about 19 jobs.
But right now, I've
got seven to do today.
MATTHEW HENDERSHOT: Well,
that leads me to right
how I wanted to
start, which is this
is your fourth book that
you've written and put out.
And in and amongst
these 19 jobs,
I can't fathom the math as
to where you can possibly
find the time to even sit down
and begin to write a book,
let alone complete your fourth.
How do you do that?
AHMIR THOMPSON: I think once
you decide to go there--
I mean, I don't recommend--
there were days where we
would look at Bo Jackson
25 years ago, like how does
he play football and baseball
at the same time?
Wow, you know.
I guess it's like
my dad instilled
in me hard work early.
I started working--
I mean, there are
laws against that now.
Well, there were laws
against that then.
When I was five, I
grew up in an era
where parents didn't
believe in babysitters.
So when I was five,
my dad was like, OK,
I'm going to find
something for you to do.
My father was an oldies doo-wop
singer back in the '50s.
So by the time I was born,
that was his second go-round,
the nostalgia era, just like
now we'll see old school,
like the '90s are in.
So whatever was hitting
on "TRL" 20 years ago,
they'll have the revival
shows at Madison Square
Garden or that sort of thing.
So for him, that was
the oldies doo-wop,
the music of his teenage years.
He was having his
second wind of nostalgia
playing Madison
Square Garden or Radio
City with the acts of his era.
So for me, he taught
me how to pack luggage,
store it in the car.
So I'm really, really
good at Tetris right now.
When I was seven, he taught
me to be a stage manager.
So I would go to
these nightclubs.
I'd go to these nightclubs and
cut gels, set the spotlights,
work the spotlights,
which is weird.
Because I often joke that all
my interns at NBC are of age,
like over 21.
And I see them as babies.
I wouldn't trust them to
get the coffee I want.
Let alone, what
seven-year-old goes
to a nightclub with a ladder
and starts cutting gels?
The nightclub owner's like,
yeah, this seven-year-old,
he can operate my system.
So I was operating the
light system by seven.
When I was, I think at
11, my dad's drummer
got in a motorcycle accident.
And Dad didn't even sweat it.
He just looked at me like,
well, you know the show.
MATTHEW HENDERSHOT: You've
got drum parts to learn.
AHMIR THOMPSON: You're
the band leader now.
So we were at Radio
City Music Hall, though.
And so they ran me
down to Macy's on 34th,
got me a suit
jacket and a shirt.
And then my very
first show drumming
was at 11 at Radio
City Music Hall.
I was my dad's bandleader.
So I mean, he always just--
I'm just numb to the idea
of, aah, too much work!
You know, that sort of thing.
MATTHEW HENDERSHOT: So
is that still true today?
From the moment,
you're awake it's
just grinding out
every single next step
to get through your day?
AHMIR THOMPSON: It's true.
I mean, to be honest
with you, I think
this is a rare third wind.
Not many people get three
chances for whatever
the idea of the brass ring is.
Our first go-round,
I'll say that after four
years of this kind of "the
little train that could"
journey that we were
having as The Roots, when
we won our first Grammy
for our fourth album,
"Things Fall Apart," then
suddenly doors started to open.
And a lot of times,
especially back then,
where it just seemed like
the doors were about to open,
there was like $2
million video budgets.
And it was the days where
people were just lighting up
cigars with $100 bills
and that sort of thing,
not a care in the world.
What recession?
And you yourself
think that, OK, well,
"Rolling Stone" just
called us the best
live act of the last 25 years.
So we'll be here forever.
Everyone thinks,
we'll be here forever.
And then in 2004, I
realized that wasn't true.
We had shot a movie with
Dave Chappelle called
"Block Party," which
was a collection
of like-minded
artists and whatnot.
And I'll say that the beginning
of that parenthesis, the reason
why all those
artists came together
was because, back
in 1997, we used
to have these jam sessions
in our living room
and at our studio with
an unknown Jill Scott,
with an unknown Erykah, with--
who's this guy?
Oh, Mos, OK, cool.
And Eve, and Beanie
Sigel, and Freeway.
And the first generation
of neo-soul Philadelphians
that eventually
got record deals,
we would have these
jam sessions weekly.
And 23 record deals
eventually came from that.
Some of them surpassed
us, that sort of thing.
But something told
me that that was
going to be the end
of the parenthesis.
I told people even
back then, oh man, I
feel like I'm a ghost
walking through my funeral.
I know we're never going
to work with each other
again in the same capacity.
Before then, it was like we just
all sleep in the same studio,
working on each other's
music, go to Studio A,
work on D'Angelo's a
bit, go to Studio B,
work on Erykah a little bit.
I've got to go see Jill for
a second, that sort of thing.
It was just like
all in the family.
And I knew something told
me that that movie was
going to be the end of it.
And I was actually fine with it.
And in some ways, it was.
Because the only new
addition to that show
was Kanye, who, I'll say, a year
before was hanging on the set
mostly with Kweli and whatnot.
And the new blood
reaction to his arrival
just sparked something
in our audience.
And I was like, oh, I get it.
This is the last
stop of my train,
and this is the
beginning of his journey.
And he's going to
be the new leader.
And I wondered, what
were we going to do?
OK, so do we just
become a nostalgia act?
Do we coast?
Because there are
even times where
acts that have sold out Madison
Square Garden, or our opening
act--
that just messed with
me so hard, like, wow,
I grew up with these people.
We should be opening for them?
MATTHEW HENDERSHOT:
Yeah, having it flipped.
AHMIR THOMPSON:
Yeah, hip-hop really
doesn't make kind
to legacy acts.
And we're kind of a
disposable culture, where
it's just like, OK, we're done.
So I wondered, what's
going to be in 2006, 2007.
So once the "Tonight
Show" came, I thought--
we started it so that we could
have a stable family life.
Because it's impossible to
live 285 days on the road
and have a family.
So I thought this was just
going to be a nice place for us
to die in obscurity.
Like, OK, whatever
happened to The Roots?
You remember those guys?
Oh OK, they're on that
show with Jimmy Fallon.
But the last thing I
thought about was it's
going to work and actually
work in your favor.
So once it started
working in our favor
and it started to bloom,
then I realized like,
oh, OK, this is another chance.
So then I spent the last
eight years just like,
OK, teach at NYU?
OK, I'll do it.
Write a book?
I'll do it.
DJ here?
I'll do it.
Score this Broadway musical?
I'll do it, that sort of thing.
MATTHEW HENDERSHOT:
Just keep saying yes.
AHMIR THOMPSON: I said
yes to everything.
And so now I'm
starting to taper off.
And I just want one job that
pays you what the 19 do.
MATTHEW HENDERSHOT: Well,
that's a good segue.
Because the reason why I
ask about the day-to-day,
and about that grind, and about
that mentality of just saying
yes, is, the book is not
necessarily an instruction
manual on how to be creative.
It's like a marker
along the way.
AHMIR THOMPSON: Yeah,
I make it super clear
that I find those
types of books corny.
So at least in the
first paragraph,
I just start at the bat
and say that, one, I don't
know if I'm creative myself.
Because I kind of feel like I'm
the guy that is the sidekick.
And I observe
people's creativity.
To me, that's the best
seat in the house.
So I'm next to Jimmy.
I'm next to Black Thought.
I'm next to D'Angelo.
I'm next to Lin Manuel.
I'm the costar in
someone's story.
And I kind of like that.
Because I obsess more of the
engine than I ever did the car.
So yeah, I make that
clear at the top,
that I don't know if I'm
a creative myself more
than a great observer
and a lucky participant.
And then these are
just my experiences
that I think could help you.
Because I often talk about that
10,000-hour Malcolm Gladwell
genius theory.
And I've got to tell
people that it's not
just you doing your craft for
10,000 hours and nothing else.
There are steps to creativity.
There's networking,
collaboration.
Is a spark an idea?
Is it just an idea?
Is it worthy of throwing away?
Once you have it,
do you leave it?
How do you remix it?
How do you find other
passions so that you
can come back to it later?
How do you not go overboard once
you fail for the first time,
or if you constantly
are failing?
Dealing with failure is
a big part of creativity.
MATTHEW HENDERSHOT:
Well, I think
it also speaks a lot
to the relatability.
And this is something you
mentioned with the how-to books
being corny in a way.
Recently, a lot of people
have been putting out
books about meditation.
And you do mention
meditation in the book.
But that's not really relevant.
But when you see
somebody like an Arianna
Huffington or a Russell Simmons
come out and be like, oh yeah,
you should take two
hours in the morning
to cook yourself a nice
breakfast and meditate.
I think if you're working
a 9:00-to-5:00 job and then
hitting your second
job to make rent,
you're looking at that and
being like, well, that's not me.
I can't do that.
AHMIR THOMPSON: Well,
I used to laugh at--
who's the first person
put me onto that?
In '95, our first major tour
was with the Beastie Boys.
So by that point, the Beastie
Boys that I'd grown up on--
'84 to '89 era--
they were a whole new group.
And I wasn't quite ready
for the kinder, gentler,
all-understanding Beastie Boys.
Like this is your first tour, so
you're thinking, like, yo, bro,
it's gonna be crazy.
Ooh, Beastie Boys!
And you know, like, Ad-Rock
wants to play Scrabble.
You know what I mean?
Wait, Scrabble?
Wait, where's the girls?
And we were just confused.
And probably the member that
had the biggest transformation
was Yauch, MCA.
And he spoke in depth about
him meeting the Dalai Lama,
and that changing his life, and
him getting into meditation,
that sort of thing.
And at the time when
you're 24, you're
just like viewing it from afar.
But you're doing that--
what's the movie reference
where the bullet's coming
and you duck?
MATTHEW HENDERSHOT:
A "Matrix" thing?
AHMIR THOMPSON: Yeah,
sort of like "The Matrix."
In my mind I'm just like, oh,
I'm not ready for that yet.
Where the girls at?
And so where I explain that
it started to save my life--
now I heard, during
the Obama campaign,
both Russell and Deepak who were
on the Obama campaign in 2007--
I heard them explain in great
detail about how meditation
saves your life and
that sort of thing.
So I already knew about deep
breathing and all that stuff.
But then one day, I'll say that
it actually maybe sort of saved
my life.
So we were doing The
Roots picnic in New York
two years ago at Bryant Park.
And the one thing I
know more than anything
is that the show always goes on.
And you have to be prepared
for plan C, D, E, F, G, H,
whatever.
And so I knew at the
beginning that there was maybe
a risk in booking
certain artists,
especially artists that
have punctuality problems.
MATTHEW HENDERSHOT: That's
a pretty diplomatic word.
AHMIR THOMPSON: If they wait
a decade for their album,
they might make you wait
maybe 75 minutes before they
get on stage.
And they don't understand.
I'm an artist.
But I'm also a "suit."
So I understand union house, and
union rules, and those things.
And OK, at exactly 10:59, we
have to stop for a union break.
So people look at me like, oh,
when did you turn into a suit?
But it's like I
understand those things.
And so my production
manager, who
I didn't see in my
peripheral view,
because I tend to look to
the right side of the stage
when I'm drumming--
at the time, John
Mayer was on stage.
And he did his last guitar solo.
I told him, when you start
making the guitar face,
then I know that you're in your
last 30 seconds of your solo.
So Mayer's at the climax
of his blues solo.
[IMITATES BLUES SOLO] OK, I
know he's about to run down.
And Keith was right there.
He's like, yo,
D'Angelo's not here yet.
And he's going to be
another 25 minutes.
And just already, just
the way that the day was--
I'm not just the
drummer of this band.
I'm the traffic cop.
So while this song
is playing, I'm
busy in my mind thinking
about this transition,
that transition, what if
da, da, da doesn't show up.
So I'm already
thinking to the future.
But just the way
that he startled
me took me out of my zone.
And then I talked
in my production mic
that the audience can't hear.
And I said John, can you
do another 24 bars, please?
And he's looking at me like,
I just gave it my everything.
I said, John, please, just
more face man, more face.
Past face, you've got to
get on your knees and do it.
So he started--
MATTHEW HENDERSHOT:
Behind the head, maybe.
AHMIR THOMPSON: Yeah, he started
doing all the cliche stuff.
And I was just looking,
panicking, panicking,
panicking.
What do I do?
What do I do?
Oh, there's Common.
God, I knew with Common
that I could at least buy
like two or three songs, which
could be maybe 10 minutes,
that sort of thing.
And then I realized
that none of the guys
knew the material from
his last two albums.
So it was a struggle.
And then there's myself,
do something real quick.
And normally with
Rahzel, as long
as he's been a
member of The Roots
or whatever, it's
more like, OK, dude,
we get the point, get out.
But he did a two-minute set.
I'm like, what are you doing?
Do more.
And he's, I don't got nothing.
And it was just the
stress and the stress.
And then suddenly, I felt--
[HEART RHYTHM]
And I felt that.
And I was like, oh shit, this
is going to be that moment.
Something is about to happen.
And because I never felt that
panic in my heart area before,
and I was just like,
all right, be still.
Be still.
And at that moment,
Chappelle happened
to be at the left of the stage.
He hates when I put
him on the spot.
But I just slowly looked
down, brought him over.
I said, you're never
going to understand this.
But I need you to talk for
like 15 minutes, please.
And the seriousness that
I had in my eye, he just--
OK, so he went out.
That way, I didn't have
to drum or anything.
And the panic kept coming.
And I mean, I hate to say this--
and I didn't put this
part in the book--
but the real motivation was
like, I was like, oh God,
I think I'm about to die.
But I know it--
aw, damn, this is the
part where I have a heart
attack at my own festival.
And even worse, that's going
to be on my Wikipedia page
forever.
And all I kept thinking about--
I mean, that's like how
narcissistic we are right now.
I saw that entry on
my Wikipedia page.
And no matter how
you try to erase it--
I tried once to erase
a fact that was untrue.
They keep saying that
my grandfather was
a member of The Dixie
Hummingbirds, Beachy
Thompson, which he's not.
And I will erase this.
And somebody will
put it right back.
And I'll erase it.
And they'll put it right--
So I was like, I can't erase
this off the Wikipedia.
So I was, "Thompson
had a cardiac arrest
at his own festival."
And then that's the part where
you just negotiate with God.
And you're just like,
Lord, if you please just
get me through this, I promise
you I'll do whatever you want,
da-da da-da dah, da-da dah.
And I remember what
Russell said about panic
and that sort of thing.
So I was like, OK, let me
do this breathing thing
that they said.
[GASPING] And suddenly, I
came back down to Earth.
But I knew at that moment that--
that moment
transformed me forever.
And now, meditation
is part of my ideal--
I see how it works.
Because I'm a person that
just eats up panic, and just
internalizes it, and doesn't
know how to let it go.
MATTHEW HENDERSHOT: But you
expand a little bit more
about the concept of
this micro-meditation.
That wasn't a full--
you don't have to sit
there and ding a bowl
and have the candles lit.
You can just take some
time to be with yourself.
AHMIR THOMPSON: Well, the way
that I applied it to the book
is also--
I mean, under the
micro-meditation umbrella is--
I mean, I simply say that
we forgot how to get bored.
And boredom and creativity
are sort of hand in hand.
And oftentimes
when we are bored,
our default move
is to grab this.
And we entertain ourselves,
which is kind of weird for me
to say at Google, sorry.
But oftentimes, the best ideas
come to you when you're silent
and when you're just in
a serene, calm place.
And I don't know if we do
that in this day and age.
And as a result, I feel
like a lot of the ideas that
are sort of out there in
the world of entertainment
are disposable.
I mean, I don't
care if something
has a billion streams.
It's like, will it
stand the test of time?
Whereas a guy like
Prince, who purposely
stayed in Minnesota in
isolation away from distraction,
away from New York or LA--
the distractions that
can trap you there--
to create some of his best work.
I mean, I believe that
boredom and silence
is the key ingredient.
MATTHEW HENDERSHOT: That
leads me to something else
that I really wanted to
speak with you about,
which is what I have encountered
personally and also seen
in a lot of other
creative people--
the two biggest enemies or
obstacles that a lot of them
face, which is distraction
and discouragement.
These sort of things can
just stop a creative venture
in its tracks.
So I'm wondering if you can
speak more about how you'd
navigate both distraction in a
world filled with distraction,
but also the discouragement
that comes with not getting
that immediate tactile,
or, I don't have 25 likes
after five minutes,
something is wrong here.
AHMIR THOMPSON: Yeah,
I speak on how--
especially because
a lot of my work
requires that I
go on the internet
to do research as
a DJ, there are
about six or seven
reliable blogs
that I look to, to see who's
coming up around the corner
that I should be up on
before this DJ gets to--
or that sort of thing,
or the SoundCloud rapper
of the moment sort of thing.
So oftentimes, I often find
myself, as soon as I log on,
I'll do that work
for 10 minutes.
And then oh, there's a
peacock, that sort of thing.
Or someone sends a cat video.
And then you're--
MATTHEW HENDERSHOT: It
gets you every time.
AHMIR THOMPSON: Yeah, you're
falling down a rabbit hole.
So I mean, the beauty
of the internet
is that there is an open
world of information
for you to eat up.
But the hard part is to
stay in that tunnel lane
and concentrate on the task at
hand and not distract yourself.
And oftentimes, that happens
to me in my distraction.
As far as discouragement
is concerned,
I'm slow to give not needless,
but meaningless advice.
I don't want to be that guy
that's like, yeah, just hang
in there, and follow your
dreams, and that sort of thing.
Because I tell
people all the time,
coming into this industry the
way I did through hip-hop--
I mean, hip-hop culture,
especially early '90s, mid-90's
hip-hop culture is
made of pipe dreams.
Everyone imagines--
my manager says
that one of the greatest things
to ever happen to The Roots
was the fact that we never
had a Bentley moment.
And that Bentley moment is this
imagined idea of celebration
where you're in a
Hype Williams video
fantasy with slow-motion money
and champagne, the slow motion
strip club fantasy that every
rapper dreams of being in.
And that was never
our narrative.
But then again, there's
nothing romantic
about a blue-collar musician,
like a working musician.
In the age of narrative,
of winners-- hey,
I won, I made it, I escaped.
I'm a winner.
I'm a winner.
That was the narrative
of '97 and beyond.
I'm a winner.
And you're not.
Pre-'97, it was more like--
I mean, Run DMC
said "My Adidas."
And then their audience
was like, oh, we
can have that, too.
It was never like,
these are my Adidas
and you can't have those.
But after '97, this is my yacht.
This is my condo.
And you can't have it.
This is my Benz, my Bentley.
And you can't have it.
So it's kind of weird that
we built heroes out of people
that were also cutting us
off at the velvet rope.
So because we didn't
have that, maybe it
kept us humble by default.
Not thinking we wanted it,
but I also feel as though,
if we got it at that moment,
we probably would
have fallen apart.
Last week, I interviewed
producer Salaam Remi
on my Pandora podcast.
And he was a big part of
the success of The Fugees.
And I asked him--
OK, so when "The
Score" came out,
their second album, selling 17
million units across the world
after their first album tanked--
I asked him, I
said, do you regret
that album selling so much
and having that much success
at such a fast time period?
I mean, of course,
Lauryn followed it up
with her solo record.
But if you were
back in 1996 seeing
what would happen to the group
individually 20 years from now,
would you regret being
part of the process
or helping that process
along of selling 16 million?
He didn't give me a direct yes.
But he definitely said
that maybe if they just did
half that or just did
something normal like,
hey, you went platinum, then
he would have probably opted
for that, the long
run as opposed
to the instantaneous
just-add-water success that
leads to diminished returns.
MATTHEW HENDERSHOT: You
touched on something
that really struck
with me there,
which was you used
the comment escape.
And I think a lot
of creative people
are out there looking
for books like this.
And they're looking
for that doorway
to escape wherever they
are, whatever they're in,
especially, like you said,
those people on the outside
of that velvet rope.
That carries a lot of weight
that you have a lot of people
out there looking to
escape who they are,
escape their current situation,
escape their current life.
And maybe that's
not the best path
to truly find who you can
be and find your creativity.
AHMIR THOMPSON: I
mean, sometimes you
need to walk away.
I can admit now in hindsight
that my first manager, who
was the father figure
of The Roots-- his name
is Richard Nichols.
I wrote-- my very first
book, "Mo' Meta Blues,"
was really a collaboration
between Richard and I.
I told my publisher that I
felt the tone of the book
should be my morning
ritual, which
was basically Rich calls
you at some ungodly hour,
at 6:00 in the morning.
But he wants to
discuss astrophysics.
Who wants to talk
that at 6:00 AM?
But his Mensa level
of intelligence
just wore off on all of us.
And usually talking
on the phone or mostly
chatting each other
on our computers
are these full-blown
conversations that that's
what I wanted in my book.
And so after he passed away,
after my first book came out,
I'll say that as a
group we were all frozen
and not outright
admitting that we
were free to do anything
else as The Roots
because he wasn't there
in the driver's seat
to be our guiding light.
But this is the longest that
we've taken between albums.
And for me, I mean, I
knew that eventually I'd
have to step up, and
man up, and create
this next album without him.
But I guess my
first steps in doing
that was walking away from it.
So that's where suddenly
people are like, wait,
why are you writing
books about food?
Where's the next record?
Oh, I'll get to it.
And wait, "Hamilton"?
What the hell?
No, I'm going to get to it.
I'm going to get to it.
And I kept finding distractions
and other projects to work on.
But really, I just
needed to feel
more confident in sitting
in the driver's seat
and starting this album, which,
I mean, we're at stage three
now.
So it'll be out around the
third quarter, like September,
October.
But yeah, sometimes you do
have to walk away and escape
your current situation just
to return and love it again.
MATTHEW HENDERSHOT: We do want
to leave some time for Googlers
to ask questions.
So if you want to make your way
to microphones, we can do that.
And as they do, I
wanted to jump back
on something else
you talked about,
which was the sidekick position
that you often fear yourself
in.
You talk a lot in the beginning
of the book about consuming
creativity and being an avid
viewer and an avid watcher
and listener.
Talk about why you think that
is so important for somebody who
is a creative person or wants to
be more creative in their life,
to consume instead of just make.
AHMIR THOMPSON: I don't know.
I mean, I don't even know
if it's that interesting.
Because half the time--
OK, a perfect example.
So my girlfriend
has zero interest
in John Coltrane solos.
So I'm trying to
explain to her that he's
using a different
chord structure
than the average disciple
of either Duke Ellington--
or he's using Middle
Eastern chords here.
And she's just like, oh, OK.
She's so disaffected and
uninterested in those things.
But I don't know.
I just am more interested
in those people
that when they were kids they
would take stuff apart just
to see the machinery.
I mean, this is why the
Rube Goldberg device-machine
is the cover of it.
Because when I was a kid, there
was one at the Philadelphia
airport that I used to just
always sit and watch long
after our flight has landed.
I mean, I just love the
machinery of it all.
MATTHEW HENDERSHOT: The
deconstruction process?
AHMIR THOMPSON: Yeah,
and the building of it.
MATTHEW HENDERSHOT:
Let's start on this side.
AUDIENCE: Hi there.
AHMIR THOMPSON: Wait, where's
that spotlight coming from?
AUDIENCE: It's from heaven.
I'm Henry.
I'm Google's medical director.
Please, don't have a heart
attack while you're here.
AHMIR THOMPSON: No, we're good.
AUDIENCE: Sorry,
all right, cool.
I had a question about
late night in general.
And this might not be
a comfortable question.
But I mean, you look
at Jimmy Fallon.
You look at the rest of
the late night stars.
Other than Conan,
no one's black.
Well, maybe Trevor Noah
over at Comedy Central.
And not since Arsenio or,
I guess, Larry Wilmore,
have we seen these folks
that even middle America can
see every night as role models.
How do you guys think about
that behind the scenes?
This is an awesome
responsibility, but maybe not.
Maybe you're just
trying to get everyone
to laugh themselves to sleep
because it's all messed up.
AHMIR THOMPSON:
I think initially
late night
entertainment, was sought
as just frothy entertainment.
People only watch the
first five minutes.
And now in the age of
the internet, usually
people wake up and look at the
highlights on their computers.
I'm actually more
concerned about the culture
behind the scenes.
I mean oftentimes, the face of--
Michael Jackson at one point
was the number one entertainer
in the world.
And Michael Jordan was the
number one basketball player
in the world.
But I want people in the
position of the people
that signed Michael Jordan's
checks to look like that.
That's a major concern.
I know that a lot of
people are confused about--
who just won Best Actress
for "Three Billboards?"
What's her name?
AUDIENCE: Frances McDormand.
AHMIR THOMPSON: Yeah,
Frances McDormand.
Her last words at the
Oscars, she said two words,
"inclusion clause."
And that's very real.
Even where I work, that's
extremely, extremely real.
So without getting
super deep into it,
I'm using all of
the power I'm given
and overstepping my
bounds, if you will,
to change the face
of that, to make sure
that more women, more people of
color are in intern positions.
Because that's where it starts.
Because usually an intern
at places like that,
it's nepotism rules.
The guy getting you
coffee, and then you
realize suddenly that, oh
my God, your father is who?
That sort of thing.
But I know what you're saying.
But for me, the main
problem is what's
in the boardroom, what's
in the writers' room.
That's my concern.
And I'm working on it.
[APPLAUSE]
AUDIENCE: So you've
done so much,
so many different career
moves and projects.
What do you want that
Wikipedia page to say?
AHMIR THOMPSON: OK,
I'm not the guy that--
AUDIENCE: Not literally.
What do you want
to be known for?
What do you want
that highlight to be?
AHMIR THOMPSON: I once
made a joke about--
I used to obsess over
my Metacritic score,
which, back when I was
only making records,
I was waking up every
day to make sure
that we were like 80 and above.
Because we weren't
selling mega millions.
So to me, it was like the
critical acclaim of the group
was our staying
power from the label
of dropping us or pressing
that guillotine button.
I don't know what it says now.
I know that I don't want Beachy
Thompson to be falsely named
as my grandfather.
So if someone here at Google
can fix that, I'll be fine.
MATTHEW HENDERSHOT: Let's
jump back to this side.
AUDIENCE: Hey, my
name is [? Nivos. ?]
I'm an upcoming DJ
and a music producer.
AHMIR THOMPSON: How you doing?
AUDIENCE: Hey.
And I found that a lot of
times that I work on my stuff,
I always think I have in
my back of my head, what
are these guys going
to think of my stuff?
Or, is this guy
that I appreciate
going to like it or not?
I was wondering if you have a
tip how to stay neutral to this
and stay loyal to what
you actually like or want
to represent.
AHMIR THOMPSON: As
far as your craft,
DJing and your music production?
AUDIENCE: Yeah.
AHMIR THOMPSON: That's a
really, really good question.
Because of all my jobs,
that's the one job where
I guess you have to
adhere to that cliche,
the customer is always right.
MATTHEW HENDERSHOT:
[INAUDIBLE] mechanism.
AHMIR THOMPSON:
Yeah, I'm a guy that
has made it known of
my snobbery of music.
And not in that
way, I don't want
to be the condescending
guy that--
well, yes, I have this
version of this song
and you don't,
that sort of thing.
But then I became
a DJ and noticed
that my personal taste--
I was that guy on the
internet that says, oh man,
that song's bad,
that song's good.
And then I realized that, I
mean, not just subjective,
but I don't think bad
and good exist anymore.
It's almost like
what's effective
and what's not effective.
I'll say the day, maybe four
days after "Bodak Yellow" came
out, I was resistant because
I was the grumpy old guy that
was just like, what?
That chick from
"Love and Hip Hop"?
Yeah, whatever.
And then I heard it
in the right context.
And then I saw myself
slowly falling for it.
I actually had to have a
meeting with my group members.
I was like, yo, are we--
because I'm also very leery
about middle-class black people
that will gravitate
towards ratchet culture
to show that they're still down.
But no, no, no, I
understand that mentality.
Because sometimes, if you're
in a culture in which you're
alone, you have to identify
and hang on to your blackness
no matter what cost.
And oftentimes, I would see
lone music critics, like the one
black guy at "New York
Times" that would rake us
over the coals because
we weren't Plies,
or we weren't Gucci Mane,
you know what I mean?
Blacker than black,
as if there's
degrees to showing
your blackness
is more than you have to show.
So I will say that I didn't
know if I was being Stockholm
Syndrome or not,
or if I was going
through a mid-life crisis, or
if I just genuinely started
to like "Bodak Yellow"
against my will, which
I would hope it was the latter.
I hear it, I can't
stop doing this.
And everybody's doing that.
And it's like,
oh, OK, I like it.
So it's so hard
being a creative,
having your own personal
taste, but then there's
the effective taste of your
audience, and they're clashing.
So I don't know.
I think, at the end of the
day, stick to your guns.
And you have to develop
a lot of patience.
Because I don't know if
your brand of creativity
is more in line of
what the marketplace is
or if you're against it.
Like I would be the guy--
damn, am I going to
say this right now?
We were experimenting with
a trap song in an odd meter,
like in 7/8 meter.
So it feels like
it texture-wise,
but it's totally undanceable.
So it's almost jazz-like.
But it's almost like,
why would I do that?
Wouldn't the smart money
bees like to create something
that the masses would like?
So again, it's my personal
taste versus what's effective
and what's not effective.
That's always going to clash.
So I think, at the
end of the day,
just educate yourself,
absorb everything,
leave nothing out, but stick
to what your heart says.
There's no real right
or wrong answer.
MATTHEW HENDERSHOT: Well, then
there's two audiences, right?
You have your audience,
who are fans of what
you've done your entire career.
Then you have market
audience, which is--
AHMIR THOMPSON: See, but
I can't even trust that.
Because there are people
that expect that of me now.
Like when I DJ
now, they expect me
to play Tribe and
Mos Def and whatever
was hitting 20 years ago.
And I'm not that
DJ that just wants
to prove to you that
I may or may not
be 50 in a couple of years.
So here's that new 21 Savage.
I don't want to be
that guy either.
I thought the answer--
oh God, I'm about to tell you
all the story of my worst fail.
This is the fail story in here.
I'll try and tell it in
the fastest way possible.
But my presentation DJing was--
I said, what I'm going to do is
I'm going to include all music.
Because the thing is,
I'm not anti-commercial
or pro-underground or
any of those things
that people expect the
left of center of music
to be, which is I guess
that's what we represent,
the alt-hip-hop, left of
center, thinking man's hip-hop,
or whatever The Roots are
supposed to represent.
I always wanted a clear
balance, like a world
where Cardi B and maybe
Phoebe Snow could exist,
a world where Mary J. Blige
and Billie Holiday could exist.
And I was going to find
the spots in between.
So when I do a four-hour
set, the oldest song I play
is from 1938, which is Benny
Goodman's "Sing, Sing, Sing."
And the newest song
I'll play is whatever
just came out last week.
I'll try to figure out how to
fit all those spots in between
and travel through each
decade from Louis Jordan,
to Miles Davis,
to Fleetwood Mac,
to Drake, to A Tribe Called
Quest, to James Brown,
to James Taylor,
and figure out how
to pack it in so that you don't
know I'm trying to educate you.
And so early 2016, I did the
last week, or the last party,
of the Obamas at
the White House.
And of course, I knew instantly.
I planned this thing
out like I was John Nash
or whatever that math problem
was in "Good Will Hunting."
I had my math formulas all out.
This song is going to
modulate with this song
and mix with that song
and that perfect segue
in this key and that
key and this BPM.
And I had the
perfect six-hour mix.
I tested it on the
"Hamilton" after-party.
And they had me on
their shoulders.
I could of ran for president.
And an hour into my mix,
man, things fell apart.
Tap on the shoulder, hey,
you're doing a good job.
But they want to dance, too.
And of course, his
daughters are just like--
all sitting on the
floor protesting.
All the adults are dancing.
But all the kids that
are there are just like--
even Rihanna was
too old for them.
And I was thrown off my game.
No one had ever resisted the
all-knowledgeable Questlove
and his music selections.
So then I became
the guy I hated.
So I pulled out my phone,
saw what the teenagers liked.
I was looking on Tidal,
looking on Google.
I was looking on every streaming
service, the top 10 songs.
I typed in at one point, what
is swag surfing, all this stuff.
And it was my meltdown moment.
I was just like, I failed.
It was the worst
night of my life.
And I almost-- well
yeah, I cried a little.
I didn't want him to see it.
So at the end of the
night, he was like, yeah.
So we had the time--
because the thing was,
once I started playing--
first of all, I don't want to be
the DJ that plays ratchet shit
at the White House.
I'm in the Hall of Presidents.
And Taft and Washington
are looking at me like--
and plus, I had the
explicit versions.
And I'm like, yo, I don't want
to play this French Montana
song.
And he's like, yeah,
play what they want.
And he brings like
Chance and ASAP Rocky
on stage telling
me, play this song.
And I'm playing it.
And then it turned
into "Animal House."
People were slam
dancing and everything.
They had the time
of their lives.
And I'm just looking
like, who are you people?
I never thought in my
life I'd see such--
it was the most ratchet--
and I've seen stuff.
It was the most ratchet party
of all time, almost to the point
where I felt like, by the
fourth hour, I was like,
OK, this is a rebellion against
the incoming administration.
That's what this is.
And at the end of the night,
arms rolled up, tie off
and everything, this
was the greatest--
he was proud.
Yo, this is the greatest
party in my life.
It was great-- you
should be proud.
It was amazing, and da-da dah.
Did you have a good time?
I was like, you
know, it was cool.
And he was like, well, why not?
And he looked at me.
And he knew.
And he was like, oh, I get it.
You're an artist.
And you came in here
with your agenda.
You came here with
your agenda and you
knew you were going
to wow us with
your massive musical knowledge
of disco, and pop, and Motown,
and da-da dah.
He says, but you did
something more noble.
He said, you served the people.
[LAUGHTER]
[APPLAUSE]
He said, I've been
in this situation
where I thought I
knew what was best.
And sometimes, you just
got to look at the people.
And you've got to
serve the people.
And you should be proud.
So I started feeling like,
yeah, I served the people.
And he's like, yeah.
You should be proud.
Trust me, that was the
greatest night of our lives.
And thank you very much.
So you feel better?
No.
So I got over it.
I retired for four months
and then I came back.
Sorry for that
long-winded answer.
I guess I'm saying
serve the people.
AUDIENCE: Great
story, thank you.
AHMIR THOMPSON: You're welcome.
MATTHEW HENDERSHOT:
Unfortunately--
AHMIR THOMPSON:
Wait, wait, please.
Wait.
Just give me a new suit.
MATTHEW HENDERSHOT:
Unfortunately, we
are running low, so we'll
take one more from each side,
please.
AUDIENCE: OK, thanks.
Hi my name is Jana.
Thank you for being here.
Thanks for "Talks at" for having
a hip-hop conversation at 10:00
AM on a Wednesday.
I love that.
My first concert actually was
Roots, Lauryn Hill, Outkast
in Maryland with my
mom in middle school.
AHMIR THOMPSON: I
remember that show.
AUDIENCE: Yeah.
I remember it, too, because
I learned what weed smelled
like with my mom in a mosh pit.
And because you all were great.
So my question is around
impostor syndrome.
It was really interesting
to hear you, of all people,
say that you feel like not
necessarily a creative,
but like a bystander,
a lucky participant.
We talk a lot about
impostor syndrome
at Google, about
self-doubt, and feeling
like you don't belong here.
And I actually work with
university students,
particularly HBCU students.
So I have a lot of talks
about impostor syndrome
and knowing that you
belong in this place,
even if you don't see a lot
of people who look like you.
And so I'm just curious.
I'm always giving them
examples about people,
like real people, who they
know of who go through impostor
syndrome and what they do.
So I know it's kind
of like a term,
but when you have
that self-doubt, what
are some things you do?
I'd love to be able to
tell my students about it.
AHMIR THOMPSON: Yeah, I
go through that a lot,
only because I feel as though
maybe with black artists
we'll allow this
winner-take-all narrative.
And like, Joni
Mitchell didn't have
to shake her ass in no video
and that sort of thing.
And she doesn't sell Michael
Jackson's "Thriller" numbers.
But she's still the
legendary Joni Mitchell.
But there's rarely
an idea of a prestige
artist for black people.
And oftentimes, because we
were never selling that winner
narrative, we made it.
Again, this whole,
"we made it, aha,
I made it and you didn't"--
because we didn't sell
that, oftentimes, you
can internalize that
"I'm not a winner" thing,
which I don't necessarily
recommend that for your--
I think we did it just
to protect our feelings,
the disappointment.
And there were moments
where we threw tantrums.
And, why are they on Rolling
Stone's cover and not us?
That sort of thing.
But I wouldn't trade it
for anything in the world.
Because at least for us, this
"tortoise and the hare" journey
that we've taken has
us here, which again,
if it were any other
way, we wouldn't be here.
So I think it's up
to the individual.
But it's also the
networking of it all.
I know especially
in this environment,
you might be the lone person
in your department or whatever.
I don't know.
I recommend
gathering your flock.
That's what we did, the idea
of that parenthesis in 1997.
We realized, oh, we're people
who are just like we are.
Oh, Jill Scott, oh--
we organized and
gathered our flock.
So sometimes, maybe you have
to organize your flock just
to know that you're OK
and that you're not alone.
AUDIENCE: Thank you.
AHMIR THOMPSON: I hope
that was a good answer.
AUDIENCE: Hey, I wanted
to ask a quick question
about creativity.
Well, my question will be quick.
But I hope your answer is long.
So you mentioned Coltrane.
And I would say Coltrane's
probably best known
for the Coltrane changes, a
musical device that parted ways
with the direction
of jazz at the time.
And I was wondering,
how do you think
about breaking the
frameworks that you've
learned in terms of
your musical knowledge
in order to be original?
You talked about different time
signatures, so on and so forth.
But I always find
it very interesting
the balance between the
way things should be done,
and then how you
make your own sound.
And I was wondering if you
could talk a little bit to that.
AHMIR THOMPSON: I was one
of those musicians that
saw breaking the envelope
or breaking the rules
as a way of being original.
But as of late, I see
more envelope pushers
and rule breakers that are
on that end of the spectrum.
But then once I look
under the surface,
I realize that they
don't know the basics.
So it's the equivalent of
if you were five years old
and your parents decided
to start you in 11th grade.
And then I find out that you
don't know basic addition
and subtraction.
So I mean, that's the
only scary thing about--
I'm all for musical
metamorphosis
coming from one place
and ending up another.
But for me, when
I test musicians,
I do the easiest thing
possible and that tells me
a lot about them.
So when I'm playing
with a new musician
or I'm auditioning a
musician for a project,
they're often shocked.
Because they'll come there
with the most complex thing
that's going to blow my
mind and all those things.
And that turns me off so much.
I don't know if it's
because of my age
or because of the old
school-ness of it all.
But you're completely naked
when you are simply told--
sorry, I have a cold.
You're completely
vulnerable when you're
playing something simple.
So if you're playing
"Mary Had a Little Lamb"
and you can't simply
do those 10 notes, then
that tells me a lot
about your personality,
about you retaining
information, dictating
back to what I said,
being a teammate,
not standing out while the
rest of the musicians are.
So I'm for coloring outside
the box and experimenting
and those things.
But to me, the mark
of a great musician
is one that thoroughly
knows the basics
and is fine with being a
team member and not just
Kobe hogging the ball.
AUDIENCE: But you
know the basics.
But then how do you approach
coloring outside the box?
AHMIR THOMPSON: You also
have to prepare for isolation
and being alone.
I'll say that, at the
beginning of working
on D'Angelo's "Voodoo" and his
style of musicianship, which,
once I met D'Angelo and
J Dilla the same year,
their drunken, laid-back
style, I'm so afraid of that.
Because I was
like, yo, musicians
are going to blame this on me.
They're going to say you play
like a drunken three-year-old.
Why can't I play like the
way I established myself?
And it was such a hard,
radical move to do.
Now, it's like everyone does--
Kaytranada lives by that code.
Everyone lives by this
drunken style thing.
But back in '97, it was like,
oh man, every drummer's going
to laugh at me, every musician.
We did a song with
Lenny Kravitz once.
And he kept listening.
He's like, yo, there's a
discrepancy in your drumming.
I don't get it.
It was such a hard
sell to people.
And it wasn't until
"Voodoo" started
to make sense two
years after the fact
that people were just
like, oh, now we get it.
Oh, that's cool.
But you've got to prepare to--
once you find new territory,
you've got to mark it.
And you've got to
stick by it, not
be passive aggressive and,
oh, OK, I'll go back to what--
once you do it,
you've got to own it.
AUDIENCE: Thanks.
AHMIR THOMPSON: Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
MATTHEW HENDERSHOT: We really
appreciate you taking the time
to come talk with us today.
It's been an absolute pleasure.
We hope you come back sometime.
AHMIR THOMPSON: I hope
I didn't bore you guys.
MATTHEW HENDERSHOT: The book
is called "Creative Quest."
You can pick it up in
the back of the room
or wherever great
books are sold.
Thank you so much.
AHMIR THOMPSON: Thank you.
[APPLAUSE, CHEERING]
Where do I go?
