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≫ GOOD AFTERNOON.
I HOPE THIS FINDS EVERYONE AND 
ALL YOUR LOVED ONES HEALTHY AND 
SAFE.
THIS IS THE FOURTH PROGRAM 
LOOKING AT ASPECTS OF RACE IN 
THE LAW.
TODAY WE'RE GOING TO FOCUS ON 
RACE IN THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE
SYSTEM AND WE HAVE FOUR 
PROFESSORS WHO ARE
EXPERTS WHO ARE GOING TO BE 
ADDRESSING ASPECTS OF IT.
AS I'VE DONE EACH
WEEK, I'LL INTRODUCE THEM AND 
THEN WE'LL TAKE QUESTIONS.
THIS WEEK, GO AHEAD AND PUT YOUR
QUESTIONS IN THE Q&A FUNCTION.
I'LL TRY TO GET TO SOME OF THEM 
AND ASK THEM OF THE PANELISTS IN
OUR REMAINING TIME THIS 
AFTERNOON.
I AGAIN WANT TO THANK OUR EVENT 
SERVICE STAFF,
JENNY BOYDEN, FOR PUTTING THIS 
TOGETHER AND
I ESPECIALLY WANT TO THANK THE 
FOUR SPEAKERS FOR TAKING TIME
FROM ENORMOUSLY BUSY SCHEDULES 
SO AS TO BE ABLE TO ADDRESS THIS
ENORMOUSLY IMPORTANT TOPIC.
I'M GOING TO INTRODUCE THEM IN 
THE ORDER THEY'LL SPEAK, 
ALPHABETICAL BY FIRST NAME.
I'M STILL FALLING THE RULE THAT 
ALPHABET IS DESTINY.
LET ME START WITH ARMANDO 
LARA-MILLAN, AN ASSISTANT 
PROFESSOR OF
SOCIOLOGY HERE AT UC BERKELEY, 
PREVIOUSLY
A ROBERT JOHNSON FELLOW, A 
FOUNDATION FELLOW AND SCHOLAR AT
THE HARVARD UNIVERSITY.
HE RECEIVED HIS Ph.D IN 
SOCIOLOGY FROM NORTHWESTERN 
UNIVERSITY.
HE JOINED THE FACULTY AT 
BERKELEY IN
2013 AND RIGHT BEFORE WE BEGAN, 
HE WAS TALKING ABOUT HIS
NEW BOOK THAT'S GOING TO BE 
PUBLISHED SOON BY OXFORD 
UNIVERSITY PRESS.
"REDISTRIBUTING
THE POOR; THE TRANSFORMATION OF
JAILS AND HOSPITALS IN THE AGE 
OF AUSTERITY AND PROGRESSIVE 
LAW."
THE SECOND SPEAKER, ELISABETH 
SEMEL, A CLINICAL PROFESSOR
HERE AT BERKELEY LAW, PART OF 
THE BERKELEY LAW FACULTY
SINCE 2001, DIRECTOR OF OUR
DEATH PENALTY CLINIC, A DEPUTY 
PUBLIC DEFENDER, IN PRIVATE 
PRACTICE DOING CRIMINAL DEFENSE.
SHE WAS IN WASHINGTON AS THE 
DIRECTOR OF THE ADA'S
DEATH PENALTY REPRESENTATION 
PROJECT AND
AMONG MANY OTHER THINGS SHE'S 
DONE,  RECENTLY SHE
CONDUCTED AND WROTE WITH THE 
DEATH PENALTY CLINIC A MAJOR 
STUDY
USE OF RACE IN JURY SELECTION IN
CALIFORNIA.
JONATHAN SIMON IS THE LANCE 
ROBBINS PROFESSOR OF CRIMINAL 
JUSTICE
LAW HERE AT UC BERKELEY, PART OF
THE BERKELEY FACULTY SINCE 2003.
HE RECEIVED HIS UNDERGRADUATE 
DEGREE, HIS LAW DEGREE, AND HIS 
Ph.D FROM BERKELEY.
HE PREVIOUSLY WAS PROFESSOR OF 
POLITICAL SCIENCE AT THE 
UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN, 
PROFESSOR OF LAW AT THE 
UNIVERSITY OF MIAMI.
HE HAS A RECENT BOOK THAT CAME 
OUT TITLED "MASS INCARCERATION 
ON  TRIAL."
AND THE FOURTH SPEAKER THIS 
AFTERNOON WILL BE OUR
COLLEAGUE NIKKI JONES, A 
PROFESSOR OF AFRICAN AMERICAN 
STUDIES HERE AT UC BERKELEY.
HER WORK EXAMINES THE EXPERIENCE
OF BLACK WOMEN, MEN
, AND YOUTH WITH THE CRIMINAL 
JUSTICE SYSTEM
, POLICE, WITH VARIOUS FORMS OF 
VIOLENCE.
SHE HAS A Ph.
D IN SOCIOLOGY, PROFESSOR AT
SANTA BARBARA BEFORE COMING TO
BERKELEY IN 2013.
HER BOOK, BLACK MEN IN THE 
POLITICS OF REDEMPTION
AND WE'LL BEGIN WITH ARMANDO.
≫ OKAY, THANK YOU ERWIN.
CAN YOU HEAR ME OKAY?
HI, EVERYONE.
WELL, I'M HAPPY TO BE HERE 
TODAY.
I'M GOING TO JUMP RIGHT IN.
TODAY WE'RE TASKED WITH THINKING
ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN 
RACE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE.
NOW, SOME BELIEVE THIS 
RELATIONSHIP TO BE PRIMARILY
DEFINED BY CRIMINAL JUSTICE 
NATURAL RESPONSE
TO INCREASED INVOLVEMENT OF 
BLACK AND BROWN PEOPLE IN 
CRIMINAL BEHAVIOR.
OTHERS TRY TO FOCUS ATTENTION ON
HOW BLACK AND BROWN
PEOPLE BEAR A DISPROPORTIONATE 
RESPONSE TO ARRESTS, 
PROSECUTION, AND PRISON TIME.
WHILE WE TEND TO THINK OF THE 
FORMER AS A BIT MORE 
CONSERVATIVE
AND THE OTHER AS A BIT MORE 
LIBERAL, BOTH OF THESE
ASSESSMENTS IN MY VIEW OPERATE 
FROM A SIMILAR PREMISE.
THAT CRIMINAL JUSTICE 
PRACTITIONERS INTERACT WITH 
ALREADY EXISTING RACIAL 
CATEGORIES, IDENTITIES, AND 
COMMUNITIES.
THAT SOMEHOW RACE EXISTS OUTSIDE
AND SEPARATE FROM POLICE
AND PROSECUTORS WHO COME TO 
INTERACT WITH RACIALIZED GROUPS.
TODAY IN THIS TALK, I'M GOING TO
SUGGEST ANOTHER POSSIBLE
FOCUS THAT IN PART, IT IS THE 
CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM THAT 
CREATES RACE IN AMERICA.
THAT POLICE, THE COURTS, AND 
PRISONS AND JAILS ARE 
RACIALIZING
ORGANIZATIONS, TEACHING 
POLITICAL LESSONS ABOUT WHAT IT 
MEANS TO BE A PERSON OF COLOR OR
WHAT IT MEANS TO BE WHITE.
IN ORDER TO GET YOU THERE WITH 
ME, I WANT YOU TO ACCEPT A 
SIMPLE PREMISE FOR THE NEXT TEN 
MINUTES OR SO.
SO FOR THE TIME BEING, I WANT TO
POINT OUT THAT THERE'S A
BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN EVERYDAY 
PROBLEMS
AND DISPUTES BETWEEN PEOPLE AND 
WHAT WE CAN CALL OFFICIALLY 
RECOGNIZED CRIME.
THAT IS THE OFFICIAL CATEGORY OF
CRIME.
THIS WOULD MEAN THERE'S A BIG 
DIFFERENCE, FOR EXAMPLE, BETWEEN
MY
NEIGHBORS CALLING THE POLICE ON 
ME FOR THROWING A PARTY TOO LATE
IN THE NIGHT AND ME BEING 
ARRESTED FOR DISORDERLY CONDUCT
, PUBLIC  DRUNKENNESS OR THE 
ALL-FAMILIAR TACK-ON OF 
ARRESTING ARREST.
THE FIRST IS A DISPUTE BETWEEN 
NEIGHBORS FOR SOME WRONGDOING.
I SHOULD HAVE IN FACT KEPT 
THINGS A BIT QUIETER PAST 10 
p.m.
THE SECOND RELIES ON 
ORGANIZATIONAL DECISION MAKING
WITH POLICE  DECIDING THAT I'M A
THREAT TO MYSELF OR OTHERS, 
RESISTING ARREST.
THEIR KNOWLEDGE AND 
UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT HAPPENED 
WOULD BE CORROBORATED BY 
PROSECUTORS OVER MY OWN.
THAT THEIR USE OF TIME IN 
ARRESTING ME WOULD BE CONSIDERED
SUCCESSFUL IN THE EYES OF THEIR 
BOSSES.
THIS IS HOW THE INDIVIDUAL 
BECOMES A CRIME STATISTIC 
CODIFIED FROM THE WORLD OF 
DISPUTES.
THE SEEMINGLY SIMPLE DIFFERENCE 
ACTUALLY HAS A DEEP IMPLICATION.
IT'S NOT THE WRONG DOER IN THIS 
CASE, ME, WHO
CREATED THE OFFICIAL CATEGORY OF
CRIME, BUT THE POLICE, 
PROSECUTORS, AND THE SYSTEM OF 
CRIMINAL JUSTICE.
HOW DOES THIS LINK?
THE LINK BETWEEN EVERYDAY 
PROBLEMS AND OFFICIAL CRIME GET 
WORKED OUT IN CRIMINAL JUSTICE 
INSTITUTIONS?
I'M FIRST GOING TO ADDRESS SOME 
THOUGHTS ABOUT POLICE, MOVE ON
TO PROSECUTORS, AND I'LL END 
WITH SOME THOUGHTS
FROM MY OWN RESEARCH ABOUT JAILS
.
IN SOME COMMUNITIES, THE POLICE 
ARE THE MOST HELPFUL
, DEPENDABLE, AND THOUGHTFUL
PUBLIC OFFICIALS ONE COULD EVER 
ENCOUNTER.
THEY GUIDE PEOPLE WHO DO NOT 
LIVE THERE ON THEIR WAY.
IF YOU CALL THEM USING 911 OR 
311, THEY WILL RESPOND TO YOUR 
REQUEST WITHIN MINUTES.
IF YOU REPORT AN INNOCUOUS 
INFRACTION BY A MEMBER OF YOUR 
COMMUNITY
OR SOMETHING FAR LESS INNOCUOUS 
LIKE INTIMATE
PARTNER VIOLENCE, THEY WILL 
RESOLVE THE ISSUE, THE 
UNDERLYING DISPUTE
, WITHOUT GENERATING AN OFFICIAL
CRIME OR ANYTHING ELSE THAT 
COULD COME
FROM IT LIKE AN EVICTION, LOTS 
OF EMPLOYMENT
, OR SOMETHING THAT WOULD SHAPE 
A LIFE FOREVER.
THEY'LL EVEN HELP HOUSING 
AUTHORITIES FIND INFRACTIONS ON 
PEOPLE WHO HAVE
MOVED INTO THE COMMUNITY WITH 
THE HELP OF PUBLIC HOUSING  
VENTURES.
S THE THE POLICE AS A SERVICE 
PROVIDER RATHER THAN CRIMINAL 
JUSTICE AGENCY.
THEY MAKE YOU FEEL SAFE WHEN 
YOU'RE ON
YOUR HIKE OR BIKE RIDE,
WHEN THEY BREAK UP NEIGHBORHOOD 
PARTIES, NO ONE WILL GET 
ARRESTED.
PERHAPS A BIT MORE SINTER IS 
EVERYDAY ROUTINE PHARMACEUTICAL
ABUSE THAT GOES SHRUGGED OFF AND
NEVER PRESENTED AS A DANGER TO 
OTHERS OR THEIR PROPERTY VALUES.
THE POLICE THAT GIVE OUT THEIR 
NUMBERS SO THAT ECOTEXT THEM
IF YOU NEED ANYTHING, CHECK ON 
YOUR HOME WHEN YOU TELL THEM 
YOU'RE ON VACATION.
THIS IS THE WORLD OF DISPUTES, 
PROBLEMS, AND WRONGDOING THAT 
NEVER TURNS INTO CRIME.
IN CONTRACTION, OTHER KINDS OF 
HUMAN BEINGS EXPERIENCE A VERY 
DIFFERENT POLICE.
THE POLICE THAT ARE NEVER AROUND
WHEN YOU NEED THEM TO BE AND 
ALWAYS, ALWAYS AROUND WHEN YOU 
DON'T REALLY WANT THEM AROUND.
THIS IS THE POLICE WHO ARREST 
YOUR DRUNK
HUSBAND RATHER THAN DRIVE HIM 
HOME AS WE JUST SAW AT WENDY'S 
IN ATLANTA RECENTLY.
THIS IS AN AGGRESSIVE STYLE OF 
POLICING THAT ACTS LIKE A 
SPONGE,
THAT ANY CONVERSATION WITH A COP
WILL RESULT IN SOME KIND OF 
CRIMINAL INFRACTION.
OR CALLING A COP ON YOUR 
NEIGHBOR FOR SOME MINOR BUT
NECESSARY QUALITY OF LIFE 
PROBLEM COULD VERY WELL RESULT 
IN YOUR OWN ARREST.
COPS MAKE UP STORIES ABOUT WHAT 
YOU DID, ADDING PRECIOUS
DETAILS TO THOSE ACCOUNTS TO 
MAKE THEM BELIEVABLE, WHERE YOUR
ACCOUNT OF WHAT HAPPENED HAS NO 
CREDENCE, MET WITH SUSPICION,
OR YOU'RE GAS-LIT TO
MADE
TO BELIEVE
YOU
CANNOT BELIEVE YOUR OWN EYES.
WHERE NOTHING ABOUT YOUR 
COMPLICATED RELATIONSHIP TO A 
RELATIVE OR A
NEIGHBOR THAT YOU LOVE THEM, BUT
THIS THING THEY'RE DOING IS
ANNOYING AND MAYBE THEY NEED TO 
STOP WILL ALWAYS RESULT IN A 
LIFE INTERRUPTED.
THE PREMATURE LOSS OF YOUTH, THE
WORLD OF DISPUTES AND 
WRONGDOINGS THAT ALWAYS GET 
TURNED INTO CRIME.
MONICA BELL, PROFESSOR AT YALE, 
CALLS THIS CONTEMPORARY WORLD OF
SEGREGATION POLICING WHERE 
POLICE ARE NOT RESPONDING ONLY 
TO ACTUAL EXISTING CRIME.
SOMEHOW EXISTING OUT THERE IN 
THE WORLD, BUT INSTEAD, CREATING
CRIME.
AND EVEN MORE IMPORTANTLY, 
CREATING NEIGHBORHOOD 
REPUTATIONS.
THEY'RE CREATING REAL ESTATE 
VALUES AND BY EXTENSION AMERICAN
WEALTH AND THE KINDS OF PEOPLE 
WHO
HAVE THAT WEALTH, WHERE THE 
CATEGORY OF REASONABLE
SUSPICION IS RESERVED FOR BLACK 
AND BROWN
YOUTH AND PROBABLE CAUSE FOR 
OTHERS.
CREATING THE KINDS OF RACIST
DISPUTES THAT BECOME OFFICIALLY 
DEMARKATED CRIME.
THE PROSECUTOR OR THE COURTROOM 
WORK CREW, IN ANOTHER WORLD, THE
POLICE MIGHT RECEIVE THE MOST 
SCRUTINY.
IN THE HOUSE OF LAW, THE 
POLICE'S WORD IS
ISN'T A
SANKTY FIED.
THEY MAINLY DEAL WITH WITH WHAT 
MY CO-AUTHOR CALLS DISPOSES.
THIS IS BOTH A NOUN AND A VERB 
TO REFER TO THE THOUSANDS OF 
DAILY
FILES THAT POPULATE PROSECUTORS'
CASELOADS.
THEY ARE FILES WITH A LACK OF 
DISCOVERY MATERIALS BEYOND
MINIMAL REQUISITES WHERE 
OFFICIALS SPEND THE LEAST AMOUNT
OF TIME
POSSIBLE ON, WHERE THE JUDGES 
ADMONISH ATTORNEYS
WHEN TOO MANY FACTS ARE READ 
INTO THE RECORD OR FILES ARE 
BARELY OPENED
, DISCOVERY MATERIALS ARE COPIED
SO SLOPPILY, THEY'RE UNREADABLE.
DEFENDANTS HEAR DETAILS IN 
POLICE REPORTS THAT ARE IN 
CONFLICT WITH THEIR EXPERIENCES.
ONE EXAMPLE, THIS IS TAKEN FROM 
A COURTROOM IN CHICAGO.
AFTER ONE PROSECUTOR READ A 
REPORT SUMMARY, THE JUDGE ASKED 
A DEFENDANT, ARE THOSE THE 
CORRECT FACTS?
THE DEFENDANT TURNED AND 
RESPONDED TO THE JUDGE, THAT'S 
WHAT THE POLICE SAY.
THE DEFENDANT'S ATTORNEY QUICKLY
TURNED TO THE DEFENDANT AND 
EMPHATICALLY WHISPERED IN HIS 
EAR, YES.
THE DEFENDANT THEN TURNED TO THE
JUDGE, YES, JUDGE.
THE COURT RECORD HID THESE 
INFORMAL COERCIONS.
WE'RE ONLY PRIVY TO THEM BECAUSE
THEETH NOTHINGER IF
WAS ABLE TO OBSERVE IT.
EVERYONE IN THE COURTROOM 
ANTICIPATES THESE WILL BE 
DISPOSED OF AS QUICKLY
AS POSSIBLE WITH HARSH TIME USED
TO PRESSURE
HUMAN BEINGS INTO AGREEING INTO 
THEIR OWN CONDEMNATION.
THE UNDERLYING INCIDENT IS SOME 
LIFESTYLE CRIME LIKE POSSESSION 
OF A
CONTROLLED SUBSTANCE, 
SHOPLIFTING, BUT THE CHARGE
S COULD BE GLORIFIED
MISDEMEANORS.
THE TRUMPED UP CHARGE GETS THE 
DEFENDANT
TO AGREE TO THE CRIMINAL 
VIOLATION AND PUSHES THE CASE 
ALONG, NOT THE WRONGDOING 
ITSELF.
THE KEY POINT IN ALL THIS IS 
THAT IF THE
CASES RECEIVED ACTUAL SCRUTINY, 
THEY'D MOST
LIKELY FALL APART EVEN IF THE 
DEFENDANT DID SOME UNDERLINING 
WRONGDOING.
THE CRIMINAL ACT ITSELF WOULD 
FALL APART IF THE CASE RECEIVED 
A MINIMAL AMOUNT
OF SCRUTINY, IF POLICE REPORTS 
RECEIVED THE KIND OF SCRUTINY
THEY DESERVE AND IF PEOPLE'S
ACCOUNTS WERE
CONSIDER
ED JUST
AS VALID.
THE PRISON AND JAIL TOO 
MANUFACTURE FACTS.
THEY CAN TURN ANY ARRESTEE INTO 
A GANG MEMBER USING TATTOOS, 
CHANGING GANG INTELLIGENCE, THE 
OFFICERS -- IT'S THE
OFFICERS WHO CAN CHOOSE TO TO 
ACT ON GANG AFFILIATION AND FOR 
SENTENCE
ENHANCEMENTS, TO PLACE 
INDIVIDUALS INTO SEGREGATED 
HOUSING, SO CHANGE FIT FOR EARLY
RELEASE.
THE MOST OFTEN TO COMPEL 
INDIVIDUALS TO SUFFERING A BIT 
MORE QUIETLY.
PATRICK (WORD OR NAME NOT 
RECOGNIZED) HAS SHOWN SUCH 
PRINCE-FORMED IDENTITIES ARE 
TAKEN INTO THE COMMUNITY.
YOUNG PEOPLE LEARN ABOUT THEIR 
RACE AN ITS RELATIONSHIP TO GANG
MEMBERSHIP AND OTHER RACES FROM 
THE TIME SPENT IN JAIL.
MUCH INK HAS BEEN SPILLED ON THE
EFFECTS OF AN INDIVIDUAL -- IF 
AN
INDIVIDUAL IN YOUR HOUSEHOLD IS 
SPENDING ANY AMOUNT OF TIME
IN PRISON FOR JAIL, ESPECIALLY 
ON CHILDREN'S HEALTH AND 
EDUCATION.
A MORE RECENT CONNECTION, 
RESEARCHERS IN CHICAGO HAVE
SHOWN THAT 55% OF THE VARIATION 
IN COVID CASES ACROSS CHICAGO
ZIP CODES IS DUE TO THE 
PREVALENCE OF JAIL RELEASES IN 
THOSE ZIP CODES.
THERE'S NO BETTER EXAMPLE OF THE
SPILLOVER OF THE CRIMINAL 
JUSTICE SYSTEM.
WHAT IS THERE I WANT TO DRAW OUT
HERE?
WHEN POLICE, PROSECUTORS, AND 
JAIL OFFICIALS INCREASE THE 
LENGTH BETWEEN
WRONGDOING AND CRIME FOR SOME 
PEOPLE BUT DECREASE IT FOR  
OTHERS
, THEY TEACH THOSE PEOPLE 
POLITICAL LESSONS ABOUT WHO THEY
ARE.
HERE, WE CAN CAST OFF NOT ONLY 
THE CONSERVATIVE BELIEF THAT 
POLICE ARE
RESPONDING TO EXCESS CRIME IN 
BLACK OR BROWN COMMUNITIES WHICH
RESEARCH HAS
SHOWN IS FAR OUTWEIGHED BY
THE DISPROPORTIONATE NUMBERS OF
BLACK AND BROWN PEOPLE IN PRISON
OR THE
LIBERAL ASSUMPTION THAT POVERTY 
IS NECESSARILY RELATED TO MORE 
CRIME.
AND WE HONE IN ON HOW POLICING 
IS USED TO CONSTRUCT WHAT ELIJAH
ANDERSON CALLS THE ICONIC 
GHETTO.
AT THE SAME TIME THAT IT 
CONSTRUCTS WEALTHY WHITE AND 
SAFE  COMMUNITIES.
BLACK AND BROWN PEOPLE MOVE 
THROUGH THE WORLD WITH AN 
ASSUMPTION ABOUT THEM, TO QUOTE 
ANDERSON, THEY MUST
DISPROVE BEFORE THEY CAN 
ESTABLISH ANY MUTUALLY TRUSTING 
RELATIONSHIP WITH OTHERS.
THEY NEED TO IMPRESS ANEW THAT 
THEY ARE LAW ABIDING.
THE BLACK PERSON HAS A CHANCE TO
DISABUSE THE ASSUMPTION, BUT
THIS REQUIRES WORK AND OFTEN 
MORE TIME THAN IS AVAILABLE.
WHITE PEOPLE MAY APPLY A DEFICIT
MODEL TO THE BLACK PERSON WHO IS
THEN
REQUIRED TO PROVE HE OR SHE IS 
WORTHY OF DECENT REGARD NOT TO 
MENTION RESPECT.
MOST SIMPLY, TO DRAW THE LINK TO
CRIMINAL JUSTICE
IN SEEKING  ACCEPTANCE AND 
RESPECT, ALL BLACK AND BROWN
PEOPLE MUST WORK TO DISTANCE 
THEMSELVES FROM THE FANTASY 
INCULCATED
BY POLICE REPORTS AND 
PROSECUTORIAL DISPOSITION.
THE FANTASY OF THE DANGEROUS 
GHETTO RESIDENT.
THAT IS A FANTASY BORNE FROM 
POLICE AND PROSECUTORIAL
LIES THAT INDOCTRINATE ALL 
PEOPLE, INCLUDING PEOPLE OF 
COLOR.
IT'S ASSOCIATED WITH CHAOS, 
LAWLESSNESS, RULED BY VIOLENCE,
THAT IS REPRODUCED BY CRIMINAL 
JUSTICE
INSTITUTIONS.
THEY'RE ACCEPTED AS REASONABLE 
BY OFFICIALS, BY REAL PEOPLE
, SUCH SOCIAL SUFFERING IS 
PRESENTED IN THE
LOW-INCOME NEIGHBORHOOD TO BE 
SURE, BUT THOSE ALSO EXIST 
BEHIND
THE CLOSED DOORS OF THE WEALTHY 
AND JUST LIKE THOSE COMMUNITIES 
OF WEALTH, IT IS ONLY ONE 
ELEMENT OF THE TRUTH.
SUCH COMMUNITIES ARE FAR MORE 
COMPLEX, RICH, AND FILLED WITH 
CONTRADICTION
, HOPE, AND ALL MANNER OF PLACE 
MAKING THAT
IT'S CONTINUOUSLY SQUASHED EVERY
TIME A WRONGDOING GETS 
MANUFACTURED INTO A CRIME.
THANK YOU.
≫ LIS?
≫ THANK YOU, ERWIN.
IT'S A PLEASURE TO BE HERE WITH 
EVERYONE TO SHARE THIS PLATFORM 
VIRTUALLY WITH MY COLLEAGUES.
AS ERWIN SAID, I'M THE DIRECTOR 
OF THE DEATH
PENALTY CLINIC AT BERKELEY LAW 
AND I'M GOING TO TALK ACTUALLY
ABOUT THE WORK OF THE DEATH 
PENALTY
CLINIC, WHICH IS SO CENTERED ON 
THE ISSUE OF RACE AND
HAS BEEN FOR THE ALMOST 20 YEARS
WE'VE BEEN IN OPERATION.
BECAUSE YOU CANNOT TALK ABOUT 
THE AMERICAN DEATH PENALTY 
WITHOUT TALKING ABOUT RACE.
THESE TWO CONCEPTS ARE 
INEXTRICABLY LINKED
IN THE HISTORY OF OUR NATION AND
IN THE PRESENT-DAY OPERATION OF 
THE DEATH PENALTY.
IT'S TRUE ENOUGH THAT THE 
COLONISTS BROUGHT CAPITAL 
PUNISHMENT
FROM ENGLAND, BUT THE DEATH 
PENALTY GAINED A WHOLE
NEW MEANING IN THE COLONIES
AND FORWARD BECAUSE OF SLAVERY.
SO TO GIVE YOU JUST ONE EXAMPLE,
IN THE
COLONY OF VIRGINIA, THERE WAS 
ONLY ONE CRIME,
MURDER, FOR WHICH A WHITE PERSON
COULD BE EXECUTED
, BUT THERE WERE 66 OFFENSES FOR
WHICH A SLAVE COULD BE PUT TO 
DEATH.
AND AFTER THE END OF THE CIVIL 
WAR AND AFTER THE BRIEF PERIOD 
OF RECONSTRUCTION DURING WHICH 
AFRICAN
AMERICAN MEN IN PARTICULAR MADE 
SOME GAINS TOWARDS
CITIZENSHIP, WE ENTERED A
PERIOD WHERE THE NORTH WITHDRAW 
FROM WHATEVER SUPERVISION IT HAD
OVER THE SOUTH.
WE ENTERED INTO A PERIOD WHERE 
THE SOUTH
IMPLEMENTED A CASTE SYSTEM BASED
ON RACE
WHICH WE KNOW AS JIM CROW AND WE
STILL FEEL THE EFFECTS OF JIM 
CROW TODAY.
ONE CAN ARGUE THAT WE FEEL THEM 
MOST VISIBLY
IN THE SOUTH, BUT I THINK
THAT THAT VASTLY UNDERSTATES THE
REALITY OF
LIFE IN THE UNITED STATES FOR 
PEOPLE OF COLOR, ESPECIALLY FOR 
BLACK AND BROWN PEOPLE.
UNDER THE SYSTEM OF JIM CROW, 
LYNCHINGS CREATED THE CLIMATE
THAT MAINTAINED RACIAL 
SUBJECTATION.
OVER 5,000 PEOPLE WERE LYNCHED 
IN THE UNITED STATES.
NOW THOSE ARE DOCUMENTED 
LYNCHINGS AND WE
TALK ABOUT EXTRA SCREW 
ADDITIONAL KILLING, ONE OF THE 
THINGS WE ARE LEAST ABLE TO DO 
IS TO DOCUMENT THEM.
BUT MORE THAN 4,000 OF THOSE
LYNCHINGS OCCURRED IN THE 12 
SOUTHERN STATES AND WHAT MANY 
PEOPLE ARE UNAWARE
OF IS THAT THERE WERE HUNDREDS 
OF LYNCHINGS IN
CALIFORNIA, MANY OF THEM OF 
PEOPLE OF MEXICAN DESCENT.
SO THE DEATH PENALTY IS A
DIRECT DESCENDANT OF LYNCHING
AS LYNCHINGS DECLINED, THEY WERE
REPLACED BY ACCELERATED TRIALS 
FOLLOWED BY  COURT-ORDERED
EXECUTIONS, SO THAT BY 1915, 
THERE WERE MORE COURT SANCTION 
EXECUTIONS THAN THERE WERE 
LYNCHINGS.
ONE OF THE STRONGEST PREDICTORS 
OF A STATE'S PROPENSITY TO CARRY
OUT
EXECUTIONS TODAY IS ITS HISTORY 
OF LYNCHINGS
, WHICH IS WHY WE MAY SEE A 
DISCONNECT BETWEEN
THE NUMBER OF LYNCHINGS IN THE 
SOUTHERN STATES WHICH ACCOUNT 
FOR
MORE THAN 1200 OF THE MORE THAN 
1500
EXECUTIONS THAT HAVE OCCURRED 
SINCE THE
DEATH PENALTY, SINCE WHAT WE 
CALL 
EUPHEMISTICALLY THE MODERN ERA 
OF THE DEATH PENALTY WHICH BEGAN
IN 1976.
SO THIS CONNECTION BETWEEN 
RACIAL TERROR IN THE SOUTH AND 
LIFE IN THE
NORTH FOR THE SIX MILLION 
AFRICAN AMERICANS WHO
FLED THAT RACIAL TERROR AND 
THEIR DESCENDANTS
TO COME NORTH IS PART OF THE 
LONG
OVERDUE RECKONING WITH RACISM 
WHICH APPLIES EQUALLY IN 
CALIFORNIA.
AND I'M GOING TO HIGHLIGHT WITH 
THAT HISTORICAL CONTEXT, I'M 
GOING TO
HIGHLIGHT THREE AREAS THAT HAVE 
BEEN CENTRAL TO MY WORK IN THE 
DEATH PENALTY CLINIC.
THE FIRST IS CAPITAL CASE 
CHARGING.
SO HOW IS IT THAT AFRICAN 
AMERICANS
MAKE UP 42% OF THOSE ON
DEATH ROW, 34% OF THOSE WHO HAVE
BEEN EXECUTED
, BUT ONLY 13% OF THE UNITED 
STATES POPULATION IS BLACK?
HOW IS IT THAT IN 75% OF THE 
EXECUTIONS
THAT HAVE HAPPENED, CARRIED OUT
SINCE 1976, THE VICTIMS WERE 
WHITE?
THE ANSWER IS THAT ALONG THE 
CAPITAL PUNISHMENT CONTINUUM, 
THERE ARE A NUMBER OF 
DECISION-MAKING POINTS IN THE 
SYSTEM.
ARMANDO JUST SPOKE A MOMENT AGO 
ABOUT POLICING, WHICH IS
A KEY DECISION POINT IN THE 
SYSTEM, AND ANOTHER ONE
IN CAPITAL CASES IS WHAT 
PROSECUTORS DO.
AND WHAT PROSECUTORS DO IS
PARTICULARLY IMPORTANT, BECAUSE 
IT IS DISCRETIONARY
AND FOR THE MOST PART JUDICIALLY
UNREVIEWABLE,
WHICH IS TO SAY THAT WHEN A
PROSECUTOR DECIDES TO MAKE AN 
INDIVIDUAL ELIGIBLE FOR THE 
DEATH PENALTY, SEEK
CAPITAL PUNISHMENT, THAT 
DECISION IS VERY, VERY RARELY
REVIEWED BY ANOTHER BODY AND 
MOST ESPECIALLY BY A COURT.
A GOOD DEAL OF THIS HAS TO DO 
WITH WHAT HAPPENED IN 1987 IN
A CASE CALLED MCCLUSKEY VERSUS 
KEMP IN WHICH
THE UNITED STATES WAS PRESENTED 
WITH A ROBUST HIGHLY
SOPHISTICATED EMPIRICAL STUDY OF
THE DEATH PENALTY
IN GEORGIA WHICH FOUND THAT 
PEOPLE ACCUSED OF KILLING WHITE 
VICTIMS
WERE FOUR TIMES MORE LIKELY TO 
BE SENTENCED TO DEATH THAN 
INDIVIDUALS ACCUSED OF KILLING 
BLACK VICTIMS.
AND, OF COURSE, MOST OF THE 
INDIVIDUALS WE'RE TALKING ABOUT,
THAT IS THE DEFENDANTS WERE 
THEMSELVES AFRICAN AMERICAN.
THE COURT REJECTED THE 
CONSTITUTIONAL ARGUMENTS IN THAT
CASE
, FUNDAMENTALLY COMING TO THE 
CONCLUSION
THAT THEY FAILED TO SHOW THE 
INDIVIDUAL
INTENT OR ANIMUS OF THE 
INDIVIDUAL PROSECUTOR MAKING 
THOSE DECISIONS.
AND SINCE THEN, LAWYERS ACROSS 
THE COUNTRY, LIKE ME,
HAVE STRUGGLED TO FIND A WAY TO 
BRING
THAT VAST EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE OF 
SYSTEMIC
RACISM TO THE ATTENTION OF 
COURTS AND TO GET COURTS TO 
RESPOND TO IT.
SINCE THEN, THERE HAVE BEEN 
DOZENS OF STUDIES IN
STATES ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND IN
THE FEDERAL SYSTEM
SHOWING PRECISELY WHAT THAT 
GEORGIA STUDY FROM THE
1970'S SHOWED, WHICH IS RACE
IS
THE
MOST
SALIENT
FEATURE OF CAPITAL PUNISHMENT.
WHAT WE DECIDED TO DO IN ONE OF 
OUR
CASES IN SAN DIEGO WAS TO TAKE A
LOOK AT THE DISTRICT
ATTORNEY'S CAPITAL CHARGING 
DECISIONS TO SEE IF THEY 
CORRELATED WITH
RACE AND ETHNICITY AND WE LOOKED
AT CASES OVER THE PERIOD OF 1978
TO 1993.
WE HAD A DATA SET OF 1,000 CASES
AND ABOUT 450 OF THOSE 1,000 
MURDER CASES INVOLVED
CASES WHERE BASED ON THE FACTS, 
A PROSECUTOR EITHER COULD HAVE 
OR, IN FACT, DID DECIDE
TO MAKE THE DEFENDANT DEATH 
ELIGIBLE BY CHARGING WHAT WE 
CALL SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES.
THAT IS WHAT CAN KICK OFF A 
DEATH PENALTY CASE.
AND WE USED A NUMBER OF METHODS 
OR EXPERTS USED A NUMBER OF 
METHODS INCLUDING MULTI-VARIANT 
REGRESSION TO MAKE SURE
THAT WHAT WE WERE SEEING WAS 
ACTUALLY THE EFFECTS OF RACE
AND ETHNICITY AND NOT SOME OTHER
FACTORS IN THESE CASES THAT 
ACCOUNTED FOR THE RESULTS WE 
FOUND.
AND THIS IS WHAT WE FOUND.
THAT BLACK DEFENDANTS ACCUSED OF
THE MURDER OF WHITE
VICTIMS WERE SUBSTANTIALLY MORE 
LIKELY THAN DEFENDANTS
OF ANY OTHER DEFENDANT RACE 
COMBINATION TO RECEIVE THE 
HARSHEST TREATMENT.
THEY WERE MORE LIKELY TO BE 
CHARGED WITH SPECIAL 
CIRCUMSTANCES AND THEREFORE 
ELIGIBLE FOR THE DEATH PENALTY.
THEY WERE MORE LIKELY TO FACE 
THE DEATH PENALTY AND THEY WERE 
MORE LIKELY TO BE SENTENCED TO 
DEATH.
SO THIS WAS A VERY SIGNIFICANT
FINDING IN A CALIFORNIA COUNTY 
WHICH IS
NOW PART OF OUR CONSTITUTIONAL 
CLAIMS ON
BEHALF OF OUR CLIENT IN THAT 
CASE AND IS NOW PART OF A 
PUBLISHED LAW REVIEW ARTICLE.
I WANT TO TALK NEXT ABOUT DEATH 
QUALIFICATION.
WHAT IS DEATH QUALIFICATION?
IT HAPPENS ONLY IN CAPITAL 
CASES.
SO ONLY IN A CAPITAL TRIAL CAN A
JUROR BE ASKED ABOUT
THEIR OPINIONS AND ATTITUDES 
TOWARDS THE DEATH PENALTY.
AND WHETHER THEY'RE FOR IT OR 
AGAINST IT OR OF THE STRENGTH OR
WEAKNESS OF THOSE OPINIONS.
AND SINCE 1986 IN A CASE CALLED 
LOCKHART VERSUS
McCREE, THE UNITED STATES 
SUPREME COURT FOLLOWED BY OTHER 
COURTS SUCH
AS CALIFORNIA, HAVE AGREED THAT 
IF A COURT
WANTS TO ALLOW JURIES IN A DEATH
PENALTY CASE
TO BE SELECTED THIS WAY, BY 
ASKING THESE QUESTIONS
, THAT IT IS PERMISSIBLE,
CONSTITUTIONALLY TO DO SO AND 
WHAT IT MEANS IS
THAT IF A JURORS' VIEWS
ABOUT THE DEATH PENALTY ARE SUCH
THAT A COURT WOULD CONCLUDE, AND
THIS IS A
LITTLE BIT OF
LEGALESE, THE JUROR CAN'T BE 
FAIR
, THAT THE JUROR'S VIEWS ARE 
PERHAPS IN OPPOSITION
, SO STRONG, THAT DEATH PENALTY 
JUROR CAN BE EXCUSED FOR CAUSE.
AND MOST OF THE STUDIES ON THIS 
TOPIC FOCUSED ON THE
IDEA THAT THERE IS A SUBSTANTIAL
SEGMENT OF THE AMERICAN
POPULATION THAT OPPOSES THE 
DEATH PENALTY AND
THAT NUMBER HAS VACILLATED 
BETWEEN 30%
TO UPWARDS OF 50% AND MORE
OVER THE TIME IN WHICH WE'VE HAD
THE DEATH PENALTY.
SO THE IDEA THAT SOMEHOW WE CAN 
EXCLUDE A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF 
AMERICANS FROM SERVING ON JURIES
BECAUSE LARGELY THEY OPPOSE THE 
DEATH PENALTY SEEMS TO PEOPLE 
UNFAIR.
BUT COURTS, AS I'VE SAID, HAVE 
DECIDED OVER AND OVER
AGAIN THAT EXCLUDING PEOPLE 
BASED ON THEIR OPINION DOESN'T 
VIOLATE THE CONSTITUTION.
WELL, BACK IN 1986 WHEN THIS 
CASE, McCREE, WAS
DECIDED, JUSTICE MARSHALL, AS HE
ALMOST
ALWAYS DID, NAILED IT AND SAID 
IT'S NOT
JUST THAT THIS PROCESS OF 
QUALIFICATION
ELIMINATES PEOPLE BASED ON THEIR
OPINIONS, IT
DISPROPORTIONATELY EXCLUDES 
AFRICAN AMERICANS FROM
PARTICIPATING IN DEATH PENALTY 
TRIALS AND IT DOES SO BECAUSE
FOR ALL THE REASONS REALLY THAT 
ARMANDO DESCRIBED AND I 
DESCRIBED IN MY INTRODUCTION.
AFRICAN AMERICANS 
DISPROPORTIONATELY OPPOSE THE 
DEATH PENALTY BASED ON HISTORY 
AND LIVED EXPERIENCE.
SO IN CHALLENGING DEATH 
QUALIFICATION WHICH WE
HAVE NOW DONE IN A NUMBER OF 
CASES, THE DEATH PENALTY
CLINIC IN SOLANO COUNTY, FRESNO
COUNTY, LOS ANGELES COUNTY, AND 
SANTA CLARA
COUNTY, IN
CASES INVOLVING DEFENDANTS 
FACING CAPITAL
PUNISHMENT, WE'VE BROUGHT THESE 
CHALLENGES, WE'VE
LITIGATED THESE CLAIMS, BUT 
WE'VE DONE SO THROUGH THE LENS 
OF RACE.
BY ARGUING THAT EXCLUSION BASED 
ON THE DISPROPORTIONATE REMOVAL 
OF AFRICAN AMERICANS VIOLATES A 
NUMBER OF PROVISIONS OF THE 
CONSTITUTION.
AND WE'VE SITUATED THESE MOTIONS
IN THE INDIVIDUAL COUNTY.
IN THE HISTORY OF RACE 
DISCRIMINATION IN THE INDIVIDUAL
COUNTY AS WELL AS
THE BROADER 50-YEAR RESEARCH 
THAT
WE HAVE, EMPIRICAL RESEARCH THAT
WE
HAVE ABOUT RACIAL DISCRIMINATION
AND DEATH QUALIFICATION AND 
WE'VE DONE THIS
BY CONDUCTING SURVEYS IN EACH OF
THESE COUNTIES TO TAKE
A LOOK AT THE VIEWS OF JUROR-
ELIGIBLE RESIDENTS ON ISSUES OF 
THE DEATH PENALTY TO SHOW
THAT INDEED, WERE WE TO SELECT A
JURY AND DEATH QUALIFY THE JURY 
THAT WE WOULD STRIP THE JURY OF 
AFRICAN AMERICANS.
AND MIND YOU, IN SOME OF THESE 
COUNTIES, THERE'S A SIGNIFICANT 
NUMBER OF AFRICAN AMERICANS.
TAKE, FOR EXAMPLE, SOLANO
COUNTY, 15% AFRICAN AMERICANS 
VERSUS A COUNTY
LIKE SANTA CLARA, LESS THAN 3% 
AFRICAN AMERICAN POPULATION.
SOME OF THESE COUNTY'S DEATH 
QUALIFICATION IS
REALLY A METHOD OF STRIPPING 
JURIES
-- EXCUSE ME, STRIPPING JURIES 
OF AFRICAN AMERICANS IN 
PARTICULAR.
SO THAT'S THE EVIDENCE WE BRING 
TO BEAR.
THE STATISTICAL EVIDENCE OF WHAT
THAT DOES.
AND I WANT TO ADD ONE MORE 
THOUGHT ABOUT HOW INSIDIOUS 
DEATH QUALIFICATION IS.
IT ISN'T JUST THAT AFRICAN 
AMERICANS OPPOSE THE DEATH 
APPOINT IN GREATER NUMBERS THAN 
WHITES.
BUT AGAIN, BECAUSE OF HISTORY 
AND LIVED EXPERIENCE, AFRICAN
AMERICANS AND WHITES VIEW WHAT 
WE CALL MITIGATING AND 
AGGRAVATING CIRCUMSTANCES 
DIFFERENTLY.
WHAT I MEAN BY THAT VERY SIMPLY 
IS THEY
LOOK AT A FOR INSTANCE.
WHETHER A DEFENDANT HAS A 
HISTORY OF IMPRINCEMENT, A 
HISTORY OF INCARCERATION.
WHITE JURORS TEND TO LOOK AT 
THAT AS MORE AGGRAVATING, MORE A
FACTOR IN FAVOR OF THE DEATH 
PENALTY THAN AFRICAN AMERICAN 
JURORS DO.
WHITE JURORS TEND TO BE MORE 
PUNITIVE WHEN IT COMES TO 
LOOKING
AT A DEFENDANT'S HISTORY OF 
CHILD ABUSE OR NEGLECT
THAN BLACK JURORS, SO IT'S AT 
EVERY LEVEL OF THE
ISSUES THAT AFFECT HOW A DEATH 
PENALTY CASE IS DECIDED
THAT THIS DISPROPORTIONATE 
REMOVAL BY
RACE IMPACTS THE FUNDAMENTAL 
FAIRNESS OF A TRIAL.
THE LAST THING I'M GOING TO 
SPEAK ABOUT IS WHAT ERWIN 
MENTIONED,
THE NEW REPORT THAT I WROTE WITH
FIVE OF MY
TERRIFIC DEATH PENALTY CLINIC 
STUDENTS CALLED "WHITEWASHING 
THE
JURY BOX:  HOW CALIFORNIA 
PERPETUATES
THE DISCRIMINATORY EXCLUSION OF 
BLACK AND BROWN JURORS."
WE LOOKED VERY SPECIFICALLY AT 
CALIFORNIA.
THERE HAVE BEEN A LOT OF STUDIES
ABOUT PREEMPTORY
CHALLENGES ACROSS THE COUNTRY, 
AND WHAT THOSE ARE
, A CAUSE CHALLENGE
HAPPENS IN A JURY TRIAL WHERE A 
JUROR HAS
AN ACTUAL BIAS THAT CAN ALLOW 
THE COURT TO  SAY, I RECOGNIZE 
THIS JUROR CAN'T BE FAIR.
AN EXAMPLE WOULD BE A JUROR'S 
HUSBAND IS THE PROSECUTOR IN A 
CASE.
A PREEMPTORY CHALLENGE, WHICH WE
HAVE IN EVERY CASE, CIVIL AND
CRIMINAL, PERMIT AN ATTORNEY TO 
EXCUSE
A JUROR WITHOUT GIVING ANY 
REASON WHATSOEVER.
IN CALIFORNIA, WE HAVE A 
SPECIFIC NUMBER OF THOSE 
CHALLENGES BY CASE, CIVIL OR 
CRIMINAL.
BUT THE HISTORY OF
PREEMPTORY CHALLENGE IN THE 
UNITED STATES IS DERIVATIVE OF 
THE WHOLESALE EXCLUSION OF 
AFRICAN AMERICANS FROM CIVIL 
LIFE.
SO AS IT BECAME POSSIBLE FOR 
AFRICAN AMERICANS TO SERVE ON 
JURIES,
AS IT BECAME MORE AND MORE 
DIFFICULT
FOR PROSECUTORS OR BY STATUTE 
FOR
LEGISLATORS TO WHOLE-SALE 
EXCLUDE AFRICAN AMERICANS FROM
JURY PARTICIPATION, THE USE OF 
PREEMPTORY CHALLENGES, THAT
IS STRIKING JURORS WITHOUT 
HAVING TO GIVE A REASON, BECAME 
A PREDOMINANT WAY OF REMOVING 
THEM.
AND IT WASN'T UNTIL
1978 IN CALIFORNIA AND 1986 IN 
THE UNITED STATES
SUPREME COURT THAT THESE TWO 
COURTS FINALLY STEPPED IN
AND SAID WE HAVE TO HAVE A 
SYSTEM FOR
FERRETING OUT DISCRIMINATORY 
PREEMPTORY CHALLENGES.
THE CASE THAT MOST OF YOU HAVE 
PROBABLY HEARD ABOUT IS
BATSON VERSUS KENTUCKY, THE 1986
CASE,
IN WHICH JUSTICE MARSHALL WROTE 
A CONCURRING OPINION AND THAT
CONCURRING OPINION IS REALLY THE
LOAD STAR FOR OUR REPORT.
THE JUSTICE MARSHALL RECOGNIZED 
THE
SYSTEM BATSON WAS GOING TO PUT 
IN PLACE, A THREE-PART TEST
FOR FIGURING OUT WHETHER AN 
ATTORNEY HAS EXERCISED A
DISCRIMINATORY CHALLENGE, THAT 
REQUIRES PROOF
OF
PURPOSE
PURPOSEFUL DISCRIMINATION.
AND
IT ALLOWS
A REASONS FOR A CHALLENGE TO BE 
SUFFICIENT IF ON THEIR FACE, 
THEY ARE WHAT COURTS CALL RACE 
NEUTRAL.
SO IF THE REASON DOESN'T SCREAM 
DISCRIMINATION, IT IS NEUTRAL 
AND THE SCOUTER WILL ALLOW IT TO
STAND UNLESS THE PARTY OPPOSING 
THE STRIKE CAN SHOW PURPOSEFUL 
DISCRIMINATION.
JUSTICE MARSHALL IDENTIFIED VERY
QUICKLY THAT PROSECUTORS WOULD 
BE ABLE TO COME UP WITH RACE 
NEUTRAL
NO WAY IN AN AMERICAN CONTEXT AT
LEAST TO SEPARATE RACE
OR REALLY RACISM AND CRIMINAL 
JUSTICE.
IT'S NOT LIKE WE COULD HAVE A 
CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM AND THEN
SOMEHOW PULL OUT THE RACISM FROM
IT, EXTRACT IT.
WE'VE TRIED, RIGHT?
LIKE THIS, IT'S IMPORTANT TO 
LOOK AT YOUR OWN INSTITUTIONS 
AND YOUR OWN PRACTICES.
I WANT TO LOOK BRIEFLY AT TWO 
THAT HAVE BEEN
IMPORTANT TO ME WHICH IS 
CRIMINAL LAW AND LAW
IN SOCIAL SCIENCE, CRIMINOLOGY, 
CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM.
BOTH OF WHICH HAVE MEANT A LOT 
TO ME.
I CONSIDER THEM -- I CONSIDER 
MYSELF MEMBERS
OF THOSE TRIBES, IF YOU WILL,
CRIMINAL LAW AND CRIMINAL 
JUSTICE REFORM, BUT I WANT
TO SPEAK TO THE LIMITS OF THOSE.
FIRST, CRIMINAL LAW.
THOSE OF US THAT HAVE TAUGHT 
CRIMINAL LAW AND I'VE BEEN DOING
THIS NOW FOR, LIKE, 30 YEARS, 
AND I HEAR PEOPLE SAYING ENOUGH 
ALREADY OUT  THERE.
WE'VE CONTRIBUTED TO THE PROBLEM
BY ACTING AS IF SOMEHOW CRIMINAL
LAW COULD BE ANCHORED IN
INTERPERSONAL MORAL VALUES.
MAYBE YOU RECALL STUDYING CASES 
ABOUT THINGS LIKE
MARITIME CANNIBALISM AS A WAY TO
GET INTO WHETHER OR NOT THE 
STATE SHOULD PUNISH PEOPLE.
IS THAT REALLY THE INTRODUCTION 
WE SHOULD GIVE PEOPLE TO A 
SYSTEM
WHICH WAS BASED PRIMARILY ON 
SLAVERY AND DISPOSSESSION?
THERE'S TONS OF AMAZING CASES 
ABOUT
CRIMINAL LAW UNDER SLAVERY THAT 
WE DON'T TEACH.
AND HOW MANY OF US KNEW, FOR 
INSTANCE, THAT IN CALIFORNIA 
UNTIL
THE 1870S, AFRICAN AMERICANS
, NATIVE AMERICANS, AND 
EVENTUALLY IT WAS EXTENDED TO
CHINESE AMERICANS, COULD NOT 
EVEN TESTIFY IN A CRIMINAL COURT
AGAINST A WHITE PERSON?
WHICH ESSENTIALLY IMMUNIZED 
MURDER, THE MAIN CRIME WE TEACH 
IN CRIMINAL LAW, ON THE BASIS OF
RACE.
BUT AGAIN, NOT TAUGHT IN 
CALIFORNIA GENERALLY.
AND WHAT ABOUT THE PURPOSES OF 
PUNISHMENT?
I WON'T REHASH THOSE, BUT WE 
LEAVE OUR STUDENTS WITH THE 
IMPRESSION
THAT PUNISHMENT COMES IN MANY --
FOR MANY PURPOSES.
IT DOES SUCH GREAT THINGS FOR US
AS A SOCIETY, AS PEOPLE,
AS COMMUNITIES, THAT CAN WE GET 
MORE OF IT IS OFTEN THE 
IMPRESSION WE LEAVE OUR STUDENTS
WITH.
LET ME TURN BRIEFLY TO CRIMINAL 
JUSTICE POLICY MAKING AND SOCIAL
SCIENCE.
THAT HAS BEEN MY BANNER FOR MANY
YEARS OF MY CAREER
TO BRING MORE SOCIAL SCIENCE 
INTO CRIMINAL JUSTICE THINKING.
AND I WANT TO TAKE STOCK OF THE 
FACT THAT THAT HASN'T WORKED 
VERY  WELL.
AND HERE, WE CAN AGAIN LOOK TO 
OURSELVES AND NOT TO OTHERS AS 
THE SOURCE OF PROBLEMS.
ACADEMIA TODAY OFTEN OFFERS 
ITSELF AS THE SOLUTION TO
AMERICA'S RACIST CASTE AND I 
HOPE THAT WE ARE PART OF THAT 
SOLUTION
, BUT I THINK WE HAVE TO RECKON 
WITH THE FACT THAT FOR MOST OF 
THE 20TH CENTURY, WE WERE THE 
PROBLEM.
THAT RACISM IN AMERICA AND 
ANTI-BLACKNESS IN PARTICULAR IS
NOT JUST NOSTALGIA FOR THE 
CONFEDERACY.
IT ALSO REPRESENTED A HUGE 
GROWTH OF SCIENTIFIC RACISM IN 
THE 20TH CENTURY UNDER THE 
BANNER OF EUGENICS.
AND MOST OF WHAT WE THINK OF AS 
LAW AND SOCIAL SCIENCE IN THE 
FIRST HALF OF THE 20TH CENTURY 
IS THE DEEPLY STEEPED IN THIS.
AND EVERY UNIVERSITY IN THIS 
COUNTRY, BERKELEY, STANFORD,
CHICAGO, HOPKINS, YOU HAVE TO 
GET TO HISTORICALLY BLACK
UNIVERSITIES TO FIND ANY PLACES 
WHERE THERE WAS
REAL RESISTANCE TO THE SIREN 
CALL OF RACIAL SCIENCE AND THE 
IDEA
THAT WE COULD SOMEHOW CREATE A 
CRIME-FREE
SOCIETY THROUGH IMMIGRATION 
RESTRICTION, SEGREGATION, 
STERILIZATION, ET  CETERA.
AND AGAIN, WE RENOUNCE THIS TO 
SOME
EXTENT IN ITS MOST BIOLOGICAL 
TERMS BUT IF
YOU READ BOOKS LIKE KHALIL 
MOHAMMAD'S CONDEMNATION OF
BLACKNESS THAT DEALS WITH THE 
WARRIORS AND
ELIZABETH HINTON'S BOOK FROM THE
WAR ON
POVERTY TO THE WAR ON CRIME, 
YOU'LL SEE THIS
NEVER REALLY WENT AWAY AND THAT 
UNIVERSITIES HAVE BEEN A BIG 
PART OF PROMOTING IT.
SO ONE THING WE CAN DO IS JUST 
ACKNOWLEDGE OUR ROLE AND AS
SOME OF YOU KNOW, WE'RE CHANGING
NAMES OF BUILDINGS.
BERKELEY LAW, THERE USED TO BE A
BUILDING CALLED BOW HALL.
I DON'T KNOW QUITE WHERE IT WAS.
THERE'S A BUILDING CALLED 
LACANTE HALL.
ACTIVE DEBATE ABOUT REMOVING 
THOSE NAMES, BUT THAT'S THE 
SURFACE OF RECOGNIZING THAT 
ACTUALLY WE WERE PART OF THE 
PROBLEM.
YOU THINK ABOUT WHY 1968, THE 
LAST YEAR I THOUGHT HISTORY 
MIGHT
HAVE BEEN MADE AROUND RACE AND 
RACIAL JUSTICE, DIDN'T HAPPEN.
THINK ABOUT THE FACT THAT 
VIRTUALLY EVERY COLLEGE
-EDUCATED WHITE PERSON IN 
AMERICA IN 1968 HAD
GONE TO SCHOOL AT A RACIST 
UNIVERSITY THAT BASICALLY
TAUGHT THEM RACIST DOCTRINES.
MY FINAL POINT IS ABOLITION.
UNTIL VERY RECENTLY, I NEVER 
THOUGHT OF MYSELF AS AN 
ABOLITIONIST.
I BELIEVED IN JUSTICE KENNEDY'S 
PRINCIPLE THAT
WE CAN PUNISH PEOPLE IF WE CAN 
DO IT WHILE WE ACKNOWLEDGE THEIR
HUMAN DIGNITY.
BUT NOT ONLY DO I THINK THAT NOW
IS, LIKE, A
GOAL THAT WE ARE UNABLE
TO ATTAIN BECAUSE OF OUR HISTORY
OF RACISM, BUT I THINK
EVEN THE AIM AT TRYING TO CREATE
DIGNIFIED
PRISONS, DIGNIFIED POLICING, IS 
NOT A SOLUTION AT THIS POINT.
EREALLY HAVE TO THINK ABOUT 
ABOLITION.
AND AGAIN, ABOLITION IS A 
DIRECTION, IT'S A HORIZON.
IT MEANS FINDING WAYS TO RELY 
LESS AND LESS AND
LESS ON CRIMINAL JUSTICE IN ALL 
OF ITS MANIFESTATIONS.
IT'S AN INTERESTING MOMENT WHEN 
PSYCHOLOGY, HISTORY
, SOCIOLOGY, LAW, ALL THE 
DISCIPLINES THAT ARE TELLING
US THAT CRIMINAL JUSTICE IS 
PERMANENTLY
INFECTED WITH THE SIN, REALLY, 
NOT DISEASE, BUT THE
SIN OF RACISM, AND WE JUST NEED 
TO FIND
OTHER TOOLS AND THAT MEANS NOT 
USING THE ONES THAT WE HAVE AS 
MUCH AS POSSIBLE.
SO LET ME STOP THERE.
≫ THANK YOU, AND GOOD AFTERNOON,
EVERYONE.
IT'S AN HONOR TO JOIN THIS 
PANEL, TO JOIN JONATHAN, 
ELISABETH, AND ARMANDO.
THANK YOU TO DEAN
ERWIN CHEMERINSKY FOR THE
INVITATION.
I WANT TO TRY AND LEAVE TIME FOR
QUESTIONS, SO I'LL TRY TO BE
RELATIVELY BRIEF AS I USE THE 
NEXT FEW MOMENTS TO SHARE A BIT 
ABOUT HOW
I ENTER INTO THE CONVERSATION ON
RACE
IN THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM 
WHICH TO ECHO JONATHAN
'S COMMENT, WE MIGHT ALREADY 
RENAME RACISM
IN THE CRIMINAL LEGAL SYSTEM OR 
ANTIBLACK RACISM IN THE CARCERAL
STATE.
EACH PHRASING CONNOTES A 
DIFFERENT UNDERSTAND OF TO THE 
PROBLEM.
DO WE HAVE A CRIMINAL JUSTICE 
SYSTEM INFECTED
BY RACISM OR DO WE HAVE A SYSTEM
THAT IS DOING EXACTLY WHAT
IT'S INTENDED TO DO, WHICH IS TO
PROTECT
ECONOMIC INTERESTS AND TO UPHOLD
WHITE SUPREMACY AND DO WE
HAVE A SYSTEM THAT'S DOING THAT 
RIGHT NOW WITH SHOCKING 
EFFICIENCY?
SO AS YOU HEARD IN THE 
INTRODUCTION, I'M A PROFESSOR OF
AFRICAN AMERICAN
STUDIES, TRAINED AS A 
SOCIOLOGIST
AND A CRIMINOLOGIST, SO I FAVOR
THE LATTER PHRASING ANTIBLACK 
RACISM IN THE CARCERAL STATE.
I DO SO BECAUSE AS WE'VE HEARD 
ALREADY ON THIS PANEL, THE 
HISTORICAL.
≫ Rod:   HISTORICAL RECORD SHOWS
THAT TO BE TRUE.
HOW WE FRAME PROBLEMS INFLUENCES
HOW WE DEVELOP SOLUTIONS TO THE 
PROBLEMS.
AND CERTAINLY WHEN WE THINK 
ABOUT CURRENT CALLS TO
DEFUND THE POLICE AND AS WE TRY 
TO MAKE SENSE OF WHAT'S 
HAPPENING
ON THE STREETS IN THE WAKE OF 
THE KILLING OF BREONNA TAYLOR
AND GEORGE FLOYD, NOT ONLY 
PROTESTS AGAINST RACISM
AND POLICE VINES, BUT ALSO THE 
ARBITRARY AND
UNRESTRAINED VIOLENCE THAT WE'VE
SEEN FROM LAW ENFORCEMENT
EMBOLDED BY A PRED WHO HAS 
DOUBLED DOWN ON
A RACIST LAW AND COURT ORDERED  
CAMPAIGN.
HOW WE UNDERSTAND THE PROBLEM 
REALLY MATTERS AND HOW
RACISM OPERATES IN THIS SYSTEM 
AND ITS FAR-REACHING IMPACT 
REALLY MATTERS.
SO FOR ME AS SOMEONES WHO WORK 
IS
INFORMED BY THE BLACK FEMINIST
INTERSECTIONALITY AND
CRITICAL
RACE THEORY
, THE
QUESTION SNOT
IF RACISM MATTERS IN THE 
CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM.
WE HAVE A LARGE BODY OF EVIDENCE
TO SUGGEST STRONGLY THAT IT 
DOES.
THE QUESTION IS HOW.
AND THEN, OF COURSE, WHAT CAN WE
DO ABOUT IT.
AND SO I'LL SPEND A FEW MINUTES 
HERE TALKING ABOUT POLICING AND 
THINKING ABOUT HOW THIS FRAMING 
OF THE PROBLEM ANSWERS THE CALLS
OF PROTESTORS TODAY.
IS THE ANSWER MORE REFORM?
OR IS IT THE FUNDAMENTAL 
TRANSFORMATION THAT IS CALLED 
FOR BY ABOLITIONISTS?
I DO WANT TO SHARE A COUPLE OF 
REASONS WHY THAT'S THE CASE
, WHY OVER THE COURSE OF MY 
CAREER, I'VE COME TO THAT 
CONCLUSION BASED ON THE WORK 
THAT I'VE DONE.
ESPECIALLY OVER THE LAST TEN 
YEARS AROUND POLICING.
THIS INCLUDES WORK FROM A 
RECENTLY PUBLISHED BOOK, THE 
CHOSEN ONES
, BLACK MEN AND THE POLITICS OF 
REDEMPTION,
AND A MORE RECENT WORK ANALYZING
INTERVIEWS
WITH POLICE OFFICERS AND VIDEOS 
OF POLICE ENCOUNTERS WITH THE 
PUBLIC.
AND AS I KIND OF ENTER INTO THE 
CONVERSATION ON
ABOLITION AS WELL, I DO WANT TO 
MAKE THE POINT,
LIKE JONATHAN HAS SAID, NOT AN 
ABOLITIONIST
SCHOLAR WITH A CAPITAL "A" OR 
"S".
I HAVEN'T WRITTEN
LIKE MANY OTHERS HAVE DONE OVER 
THE COURSE OF THEIR
CAREERS AND I THINK IT'S REALLY 
IMPORTANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT IN
THIS MOMENT AS MORE PEOPLE 
EMBRACE ABOLITION OR
DEEPEN THEIR ABOLITIONIST 
ORIENTATION,
THAT WE NOT
ERASE THE
CONTRIBUTIONS OF THOSE WHO HAVE
PAVED THE WAY REALLY FOR THE 
MOMENT WE
ARE IN RIGHT NOW, WHO'VE TAKEN 
RISKS IN ORDER TO PUSH FORWARD 
THAT BODY OF KNOWLEDGE.
AND ESPECIALLY BLACK SCHOLARS 
WHO HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO THIS 
CONVERSATION AND THE HUNDREDS OF
ACTIVISTS ON THE
IMPLICIT BIASES, EXPLICIT BIASES
THAT OFFICERS RELY ON TO 
ORGANIZE THEIR THOUGHTS AND 
ACTIONS AND EXPLICIT IN THAT 
THEY CAN DESCRIBE IT TO US.
AND THESE EXPLICIT BIASES 
RATIONALIZE DIFFERENTIAL 
TREATMENT AND PERHAPS
NOT SURPRISINGLY, THIS 
DIFFERENTIAL TREATMENT IS MAPPED
ON TO RACE AND SPACE AND THE WAY
THAT OTHERS HAVE ARGUED.
OUR FINDINGS ARE CONSISTENT WITH
THE RECENT PUGH REPORT
THAT FOUND THAT 56% OF OFFICERS 
BELIEVE YOU SHOULD BE MORE 
AGGRESSIVE WITH PEOPLE IN 
CERTAIN NEIGHBORHOODS.
WE CAN UNDERSTAND CERTAIN 
NEIGHBORHOODS
IS A RACIALLY CODED TERM.
OFFICERS MAKE DISTINCTIONS 
BETWEEN NICE PEOPLE AND NICE 
AREAS, NORMAL FAMILIES.
THIS IS THE LANGUAGE FROM THEIR 
WORDS.
PRIME-TIME CIVILIAN.
AND PEOPLE IN THE PROJECTS.
AND PEOPLE IN THE PROJECTS ARE 
SET OFF AS
DISTINCTLY DIFFERENT FROM PEOPLE
IN NICE AREAS.
AND SO WE CAN JUST KIND OF TAKE 
A STEP OUT AND IT'S NO SURPRISE 
THAT NICE PEOPLE AND NICE AREAS 
GET NICE POLICING.
THEY GET SERVICE ORIENTED 
POLICING.
THEY GET THE KIND OF POLICING 
THAT ARMANDO
DESCRIBED AT THE START OF THIS 
PANEL.
AND PEOPLE IN THE PROJECTS GET 
POLICING THAT'S
ORIENTED AROUND THREAT AND 
DANGER AND AGGRESSION.
AS ONE OFFICER EXPLAINED TO US, 
OTHER THAN THE PROJECTS, YOU 
STAY PROFESSIONAL.
ANOTHER OFFICER SAID THAT 
TALKING TO A RESEARCHER SAID, 
REMEMBER HOW I TOLD YOU YOU HAVE
TO DE-ESCALATE?
WELL, YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO THAT 
KIND OF THING HERE.
THAT'S TO PARAPHRASE THE 
COMMENT.
SO OVER THERE, YOU HAVE A 
CERTAIN KIND OF POLICING, AND 
OVER HERE, YOU HAVE A DIFFERENT 
KIND OF POLICING.
AND SO THIS WORK, COMING FROM 
REALLY BOTH SIDES OF THE 
DIVIDING LINE, BUT
THIS MORE RECENT WORK SUGGESTS 
THAT REFORMS THAT FOCUS ONLY
ON IMPLICIT BIAS OR 
DE-ESCALATION OR
REFORMIST REFORMS MORE BROADLY 
WILL BE LIMITED BY THE
VERY EXPLICIT RACIALIZED -- 
BECAUSE THEY DON'T ACCOUNT
FOR I SHOULD SAY, THE VERY 
EXPLICIT RACIALIZED
AND AT TIMES EXPLICIT BIASES 
THAT
ORGANIZE EVERYDAY POLICING AND 
FRAMED AS EXPERTISE.
AND SO TO NOT POLICE THIS WAY 
WOULD SEEM TO BE NOT TO BE A 
GOOD POLICE OFFICER.
AND SO WHAT WE SEE IS THAT THIS 
KIND OF RACISM,
WE SEE A WAY IN WHICH HISTORY 
LINGERS, RIGHT?
AND THAT RACISM IS EMBEDDED IN 
THE LINGUISTIC AND
INTERACTIONAL INFRASTRUCTURE OF 
POLICING, AND THIS WILL ALWAYS 
PRESENT
A CHALLENGE TO REFORM.
SO I THINK THAT THIS WORK ALONG 
WITH THE WORK OF NUMEROUS 
SCHOLARS
WORKING ON THESE ISSUES 
CHALLENGES THE
NOTION, ESPECIALLY IN THIS 
MOMENT, THAT REFORM
IS THE SOLUTION OR THE PRIMARY 
SOLUTION TO THE PROBLEM.
THAT WE ARE CONFRONTED WITH 
RIGHT NOW.
THIS WORK SUPPORTS CALLS FOR 
ABOLITION.
AND I SHOULD SAY ESPECIALLY 
CALLS TO BUILD UP LIFE-
AFFIRMING, AS ABOLITIONISTS 
DESCRIBE IT, LIFE-AFFIRMING
INSTITUTIONS AND NOT 
CRIMINALIZING INSTITUTIONS AND 
THE END OF
THE CHOSEN ONES, I RIGHT ABOUT 
OTHER WAYS THAT WE
CAN RESPOND TO VIOLENCE IN
NEIGHBORHOODS ACROSS THE COUNTRY
THAT DON'T RELY ON THE HEAVY 
HAND
OF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INSTEAD 
CENTER THE HUMANITY
OF BLACK PEOPLE, THE HUMANITY OF
YOUNG PEOPLE,
AND ARE FOCUSED ON BUILDING UP 
CAPACITY, NOT TEARING IT DOWN.
AND THIS IS THE KIND OF 
CONVERSATION THAT
WE'RE HAVING IN THE DEPARTMENT 
OF AFRICAN AMERICAN
STUDIES AS WE KIND OF LAUNCH A
SERIES OF CONVERSATIONS, EVENTS,
AND
PROJECTS THAT ARE ORGANIZED 
AROUND THE CONCEPT OF
ABOLITION DEMOCRACY, AND THIS IS
A FRAMEWORK THAT MY BRILLIANT 
COLLEAGUE INTRODUCED TO LINK 
THESE PROJECTS AND THESE 
CONVERSATIONS TOGETHER.
AND SOME OF YOU MAY ALREADY KNOW
THAT
ABOLITION DEMOCRACY IS THE TITLE
OF A BOOK
FROM ANGELA DAVIS WHO IS 
BUILDING ON THE WORK
OF WEB WHO MAKES THE POINT THAT 
SLAVERY WAS NOT FULL FREEDOM.
THE ABOLITION OF SLAVERY WAS NOT
FULL FREEDOM BECAUSE
IT WASN'T ACCOMPANIED, TO
GO BACK TO ELISABETH'S COMMENTS,
BY THE
RISE OF DEMOCRATIC INTUITIONS TO
ENSURE THE FREEDOM AND SAFETY OF
BLACK  PEOPLE.
AND SO THE UNFINISHED PROJECT 
REALLY IS TO
IMAGINE THOSE  LIFE-AFFIRMING 
INSTITUTIONS
, HOW DO WE BUILD THOSE 
INSTITUTIONS, WHAT ARE THE
VALUES THAT ORGANIZE THOSE 
INSTITUTIONS, AND FOR ME, THAT'S
THE KIND OF CONVERSATION THAT I 
WANT TO BE INVOLVED IN AT THIS 
MOMENT AND
THAT I THINK IS THE CONVERSATION
THAT RESPONDS TO THIS MOMENT.
SO I'LL STOP THERE, THANK YOU.
≫ MY THANKS TO ALL FOUR OF YOU 
FOR THE TERRIFIC PRESENTATIONS.
THERE'S SEVERAL QUESTIONS.
THE FIRST QUESTION ACTUALLY GOES
TO PROFESSOR SIMON AND JONES.
IT SAYS, YOU ENDORSE THE IDEA OF
ABOLITION.
I'M NOT SURE WHAT THAT MEANS IN 
THE CONTEXT OF THE OVERALL 
CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM.
IS IT POSSIBLE TO ASPIRE TO A
SOCIETY THAT HAS NO CRIMINAL 
JUSTICE SYSTEM EVEN FOR VIOLENT 
CRIMES?
JONATHAN, NIKKI?
≫ NIKKI, DO YOU WANT TO START?
≫ I'LL CATCH MY BREATH AND THEN 
YOU CAN START!
≫ OKAY.
THAT'S A VERY IMPORTANT 
QUESTION.
I THINK THE FIRST THING TO 
RECOGNIZE IS WHAT WE'VE BEEN 
DOING OVER THE LAST HALF CENTURY
IN THE U.S. WAS, LIKE, THE 
OPPOSITE OF ABOLITION.
WE TRIED TO FIT EVERY PROBLEM WE
COULD FIND INTO THE CRIMINAL 
JUSTICE BOX FOR A VARIETY OF 
REASONS.
I TRIED TO WRITE ABOUT IT IN MY 
BOOK
A DECADE AGO, POLITICAL REASONS 
MOSTLY, AND SO ONE THING 
ABOLITION MEANS IS STOP DOING 
THAT.
LET'S STOP GROWING IT FOR SURE 
AND LET'S LOOK AT EVERYTHING
WE CAN AND ASK IS THIS REALLY 
THE WAY WE CAN RESPOND TO THIS 
PROBLEM MOST EFFECTIVELY?
I MEAN, HERE ON THE STREETS OF 
BERKELEY, AND
AGAIN, CRIME AND OTHER SOCIAL 
PROBLEMS HAVE TO BE LOOKED
AT VERY CONCRETELY AND LOCALLY
, I SEE THE MOST CRYING NEED FOR
MENTAL HEALTH CARE FOR PEOPLE 
THAT ARE HAVING MENTAL HEALTH 
EMERGENCIES AND SUFFERING FROM 
HOUSING  INSECURITY.
AND I'M NOT SURE WHAT POLICE ARE
SUPPOSED TO DO ABOUT THAT BUT WE
KEEP THROWING POLICE AT IT, AND
SO I THINK WE REALLY WON'T KNOW 
WHAT THE SOLUTIONS
ARE UNTIL WE START ASKING THOSE 
QUESTIONS.
AND WE CAN'T ASK THE QUESTIONS 
UNTIL WE START SHRINKING THAT 
CARCERAL
STATE WHICH HAS KIND OF ABSORBED
SO MANY OF THE PROBLEMS AND SO 
MANY OF THE RESOURCES.
≫ YES, AND I'LL JUST ADD TO THAT
THAT, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE ENTERED
INTO THIS CONSIDERATION AT 
DIFFERENT POINTS, AND SOME 
PEOPLE WHO ARE JUST COMING TO 
THIS CONVERSATION ASK THAT 
QUESTION.
WHAT ABOUT VIOLENT CRIME?
WHAT ABOUT VIOLENCE AGAINST 
WOMEN?
AND I WILL SAY THAT FOLKS WHO 
HAVE BEEN
DOING THIS WORK FOR A LONGER 
PERIOD OF TIME HAVE ALREADY 
DEVELOPED SOME
STRATEGIES FOR RESPONDING TO 
THOSE KINDS OF QUESTIONS.
AND SO WE CAN SEE THE 
RESTORATIVE
JUSTICE MOVEMENT AS PART OF 
THAT, TRANSFORMATIVE JUSTICE 
COMMITTEE AS PART OF THAT.
WE CAN SEE THE WORK THAT BLACK 
FEMINIST SCHOLARS
-- ACTIVISTS -- HAVE DONE AROUND
RESPONDING TO SEXUAL VIOLENCE IN
THE BLACK COMMUNITY.
AND SO THE WORK OF PEOPLE LIKE
AEISHA SIMMONS, FOR EXAMPLE, SO 
I WOULD SAY THAT THESE
ARE THE QUESTIONS THAT COME UP 
ALMOST RIGHT AWAY.
BUT TO
KNOW THAT
THERE ARE
SOLUTIONS, AND SO ABOLITION IS 
ENCOURAGING
US, TO BORROW WHAT JONATHAN JUST
SAID, TO LOOK TOWARDS THAT 
HORIZON AND TO SHIFT OUR 
THINKING.
TO ASK, AS I SAY, WHAT DOES A 
SAFE WORLD LOOK LIKE FROM THE 
PERSPECTIVE OF SOMEONE WHO IS A 
FREQUENT TARGET OF POLICING?
WHAT BUILDS UP THEIR CAPACITY 
WHICH WE KNOW THEN LEADS TO -- 
WOULD LEAD TO A DECREASE IN 
VIOLENCE.
SO WHAT BUILDS THEM UP?
AND IF YOU ASK THAT QUESTION, 
THE ROLE OF POLICING ACTUALLY  
DIMINISHES, A BECAUSE POLICE 
DOESN'T PROVIDE WELL-BEING, THE 
KINDS OF THINGS THAT PEOPLE IN 
OUR 
SOCIETY GET THAT WE KNOW ARE 
GOOD FOR THEM, AND SO ABOLITION
ENCOURAGES US BOTH TO SHIFT OUR 
PERSPECTIVE, SHIFT WHERE WE 
STAND
, AND TO SHIFT A PARADIGM AROUND
PUNISHMENT.
≫ THANK YOU.
THE NEXT QUESTION IS:  IF 
ABOLITION
ISN'T GOING TO HAPPEN, ARE THERE
REFORMS THAT COULD
LESSEN RACE AND ITS ROLE IN THE 
CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM?
MAYBE IF I COULD ASK EACH OF THE
FOUR OF YOU TO ADDRESS
THAT STARTING WITH ARMANDO AND 
THEN LIZ AND JONATHAN AND NIKKI.
≫ THANKS FOR THE QUESTION.
SOCIAL MOVEMENT THEORISTS HAVE 
SHOWN THAT
CHANGES, IMPORTANT CHANGES THAT 
HAVE BEEN FOUGHT FOR
AND WON, THEY SORT OF
DON'T HAPPEN WITH PEOPLE PUSHING
FOR ONLY JUST REFORM.
YOU KNOW, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT
TO BE PUSHING
FOR ABOLITION AND FOR THAT TO BE
SORT OF THE
PREMISE OF A MOVEMENT.
WITH PERHAPS A COMPROMISE WOULD 
THEN
BE DEFUNDING OF POLICE
DEPARTMENTS AND OTHER CRIMINAL 
JUSTICE AGENCIES.
AND, YOU KNOW, RIGHT NOW, ON
THE AGENDA, SORT OF DEFUNDING, 
THAT'S THE ONE THAT'S
REACHED PUBLIC OFFICIALS, AND 
WHAT HAS IT RESULTED IN?
IT'S RESULTED IN THE PUBLIC
ADVERTISEMENT OF ALREADY PLANNED
BUDGET CUTS, SORT
OF LIKE 10% OF POLICE 
DEPARTMENTS.
YOU KNOW, I RECENTLY HEARD A 
STORY OR I WAS READING A
STORY ABOUT THERE WERE A COUPLE 
OF NURSES HAD
PETITIONED SAN FRANCISCO GENERAL
TO GET RID OF
THE SHERIFFS AT THE HOSPITAL.
AND THE FRONT-LINE ESSENTIAL 
WORKERS,
OTHERS, RAISED ANOTHER PETITION 
TO TRY TO SAVE IT.
AND IT'S BEEN SIGNED BY A COUPLE
THOUSAND PEOPLE.
AND BECAUSE OF FEARS AROUND 
VIOLENT CRIME AGAINST STAFF
, WHICH IS A REAL
THING, YOU KNOW, IT'S A 
DIFFICULT QUESTION.
THE POINT, AND TO ECHO WHAT 
NIKKI JUST SAID, THIS IS A
MOMENT TO REIMAGINE WHAT PUBLIC 
SAFETY CAN MEAN.
TO RETHINK WHAT THE PRESENCE OF 
COPS
AT A HOSPITAL, THE KIND
OF MISSION CREEP THAT GOES ON 
THERE AND THE EFFECTS IT HAS ON 
REAL HEALTH CARE.
AND HOW OTHER WAYS OF
ASSURING ESSENTIAL STAFF SAFETY,
WHY
DO WE NEED PEOPLE WITH GUNS TO 
DEAL WITH THE MENTALLY FRAGILE?
WHY DO WE NEED -- WHY
CAN'T WE, IF A RESPONSE IS 
NEEDED, WHY CAN'T WE JUST
CALL 911 FOR COPS THAT HANG 
AROUND HOSPITALS ALL THE TIME 
THAT ARE THERE?
SO WHY DO WE NEED A SPECIFICALLY
STAFFED VERSION?
SO IT'S IMPORTANT TO BE PUSHING 
FOR ABOLITION
WHEN WE KNOW THE KIND OF 
COMPROMISES THAT PUBLIC 
OFFICIALS ARE WILLING TO MAKE.
≫ LIZ?
≫ I COMPLETELY AGREE THAT WE 
CANNOT SHRINK THE HORIZON.
THAT THE HORIZON HAS TO BE
AS AMBITIOUS, IT'S A MIXED 
METAPHOR, AS POSSIBLE.
SINCE I TALKED ABOUT THE DEATH 
PENALTY, LET ME USE THAT AS AN 
EXAMPLE AND GO
TO WHAT JONATHAN SAID, WHICH IS 
WE'VE MADE THIS
ABSOLUTELY FAILED ATTEMPT OR HAD
THIS FAILED NOTION THAT WE CAN
EXTRACT RACISM FROM STRUCTURES 
IN WHICH
IT IS ABSOLUTELY AND FOREVER 
EMBEDDED AND CAPITAL PUNISHMENT
IS THE QUINTESSENTIAL EXAMPLE 
FOR ALL THE REASONS THAT I SAID.
SO THE ONLY ANSWER TO ABOLITION 
AND RACISM IS
TO END -- THE ONLY ANSWER TO 
CAPITAL PUNISHMENT AND RACISM IS
TO END CAPITAL PUNISHMENT.
WE CAN'T EXTRACT IT.
AND ON THE SUBJECT OF JURIES, I 
WAS REALLY
STRUCK BY NIKKI'S COMMENTS IN 
TALKING TO
POLICE OFFICERS WHO CONTRASTED 
THE KIND OF POLICING THEY DO, 
AND
I'LL JUST BE DIRECT ABOUT IT,
IN WHITE NEIGHBORHOODS AND 
NEIGHBORHOODS OF COLOR, IN WHICH
THEY USED COMPLETELY DIFFERENT 
TACTICS
AND RATIONALIZED THEM FOR
USING THESE EUPHEMISMS THAT ARE 
CODES FOR RACISM.
THAT'S PRECISELY WHAT 
PROSECUTORS DO WHEN THEY TALK 
ABOUT PICKING A
JURY OF "AVERAGE, NORMAL 
PEOPLE," AND YOU LOOK AT
WHAT ARE THE WORDS THEY USE TO 
DESCRIBE AVERAGE, NORMAL PEOPLE?
THEY ARE WHITE, MIDDLE, OR UPPER
-MIDDLE CLASS PEOPLE PERIOD, 
FULL STOP.
THEY ARE PEOPLE WHO'VE NOT HAD 
CONTACT WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT.
THEY'RE PEOPLE, AS ARMANDO WAS 
DESCRIBING EARLIER, WHO
THINK OF THE POLICE AS A BENIGN
OR BENEFICIAL INFLUENCE IN THEIR
COMMUNITIES, SO WE
HAVE TO COME TO TERMS WITH HOW
EMBEDDED RACISM IS IN ALL 
ASPECTS OF THE
CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM AND 
THINK ABOUT
AND ACT ABOUT
CHANGE IN STRUCTURAL WAYS, IN 
WAYS THAT ARE NOT CONSTRAINED
BY THE KIND OF  THINKING THAT WE
HAVE DONE OVER THE CENTURIES.
≫ YES, THANK YOU FOR THE 
QUESTION AND THE DISCUSSION.
LET ME JUST SAY THAT I THINK 
"BLACK LIVES MATTER" IS A GREAT 
SLOGAN BECAUSE IT ACTUALLY 
HIGHLIGHTS A WHOLE STRATEGY, 
RIGHT?
IF YOU THINK OF BLACK LIVES
AS BEING A POLL OF
DEHUMANNATION IN AMERICAN 
INSTITUTIONS WHERE LIVES HAVEN'T
MATTERED
AND WHERE YOUR MATTERRERING 
GROWS THE FARTHER AWAY FROM
THAT YOU GET, IT ALSO
MEANS WE CAN LOOK AT WHERE BLACK
LIVES ARE AT
RISK AND ARE BEING HARMED AND 
DESTROYED AND TAKE THOSE AS THE 
PRIORITIES TO CHANGE, RIGHT?
SO WE SHOULD END STOP AND FRISK.
I SEE NO CRIMINAL ACTUAL 
EVIDENCE THAT STOP AND FRISK, 
LETTING
POLICE STOP PEOPLE THEY THINK 
ARE SUSPICIOUS, WHICH IS
AN INVITATION TO RACIAL 
PROFILING
, THERE'S NO EVIDENCE IT 
PROVIDES PUBLIC SAFETY AND 
CLEARLY ENDANGERS BLACK LIVES.
POLICE SHOULD NOT BE DISPATCHED 
TO MINOR CRIMES LIKE THE
ONE GEORGE FLOYD WAS DESCRIBED 
TO BEING INVOLVED IN.
PRISON SENTENCES AND THE DEATH 
PENALTY, THOSE HAVE TO GO.
WHEN YOU HAVE VERY LONG 
SENTENCES WITH THE DEATH PENALTY
ON THE TABLE
, THEY'RE GOING TO BE AIMED AT 
BLACK LIVES PREDOMINANTLY
PROSECUTORS, BY JURORS, SO I 
THINK -- I DON'T WANT TO CALL
THEM LOW-HANGING FRUIT, BECAUSE 
WE HAVEN'T SUCCEEDED
VERY FAR IN GETTING RID OF SOME 
OF THESE THINGS, BUT I DON'T 
THINK
IT'S HARD TO FIGURE OUT WHAT ARE
THE FIRST THINGS TO GO AS WE 
MOVE
TOWARDS SEEING WHETHER WE CAN 
REALLY ABOLISH THE SYSTEM.
≫ NIKKI, YOU GET THE LAST WORD.
≫ OH, SURE.
AND SO I WOULD SAY THE PROJECT 
OF ABOLITION
IS ALREADY HAPPENING AND HAS 
BEEN HAPPENING.
AND SO IF WE THINK JUST ABOUT 
DEFUNDING, PART OF THE PROJECT
OF ABOLITION IN THINKING ABOUT 
POLICE ABOLITION
IS DELEGITIMIZING THE MONOPOLY
THAT POLICE OFFICERS HAVE OVER 
POLICING BLACK COMMUNITIES.
AND WE'VE SEEN SOME OF THAT 
ALREADY, THE KIND OF CHALLENGE 
TO THE LEGITIMACY OF LAW 
ENFORCEMENT AND THEIR EFFORTS.
THEY'VE HELPED WITH THAT.
THEY'VE HELPED TO CREATE THE 
CONDITIONS AND SUPPORT FOR 
ABOLITION
BY WHAT WE'VE SEEN ON TV AND IN 
THE POLICING OF THE PROTESTS.
BUT SOME OF THAT WORK IS ALREADY
UNFOLDING AND WE'VE SEEN 
DIFFERENT KINDS OF REACTIONS IN 
DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE COUNTRY.
BUT TO GO EXACTLY
TO THE QUESTION THAT WAS RAISED 
IS IT'S IMPORTANT TO
THINK OR I FIND IT USEFUL TO 
THINK ABOUT WHAT
ABOLITIONISTS DESCRIBE AS 
REFORMIST REFORMS THAT
IMPROVE THE EFFICIENCY OF THE 
INSTITUTION, MAKE IT APPEAR TO 
BE
LESS VIOLENT, BUT JUST TO BORROW
FROM THE EXAMPLE THAT
I SHARED, IS ACTUALLY DOING THE 
SAME KIND OF
WORK OF THE INSTITUTION AND SO 
IS MAKING THE INSTITUTION 
STRONGER.
WE CAN THINK OF PREDICTIVE 
POLICING AS A KIND OF REFORMIST 
REFORM.
AND THEN TO THINK OF 
NON-REFORMIST REFORMS AND THOSE 
ARE THE KINDS OF
THINGS THAT AGAIN CHALLENGE THE 
LEGITIMACY
AND I THINK POLICE 
ACCOUNTABILITY, WHAT WE'RE 
SEEING WITH THE TRANSPARENCY
OR PUSHES FOR TRANSPARENCY OF 
OFFICERS
IRECORDS AND DISCIPLINARY
HISTORIES, ALL OF THIS IS 
PIERCING THE BUBBLE OF 
PROTECTION OF
POLICE THAT HAS EXISTED AND 
GOTTEN STRONGER IN CONTEMPORARY 
HISTORY.
IT DIDN'T ALWAYS EXIST, BUT IT 
EXISTS IN THIS WAY BECAUSE 
PEOPLE
WORKED FOR IT TO BE THIS WAY, SO
POLICE ACCOUNTABILITY I THINK IS
REALLY
IMPORTANT AND THINKING MORE 
ABOUT THE DISTINCTIONS BETWEEN 
REFORMIST REFORMS AND 
NON-REFORMIST REFORMS.
≫ TERRIFIC.
UNFORTUNATELY, WE'RE OUT OF TIME
RIGHT NOW.
ONCE MORE, I REALLY WANT TO 
THANK THE FOUR SPEAKERS FOR 
THEIR WONDERFUL PRESENTATIONS, 
THEIR THOUGHT-PROVOKING 
PRESENTATIONS.
THIS IS AN ONGOING CONVERSATION.
WE'LL CERTAINLY HAVE MORE 
PROGRAMS IN THE MONTHS AHEAD
LOOKING AT ASPECTS OF RACE AND 
POLICING, RACE IN THE CRIMINAL 
JUSTICE SYSTEM.
OUR NEXT PROGRAM WILL BE TWO 
WEEKS FROM TODAY WHICH WILL LOOK
AT RACE AND THE ENVIRONMENT AND 
AFTER THAT, THREE WEEKS FROM 
TODAY
, THE PROGRAM LOOKS AT RACE IN 
LEGAL EDUCATION.
I HOPE EVERYBODY, THAT YOU AND 
YOUR LOVED ONES ARE SAFE AND 
HEALTHY.
TAKE CARE.
