I'm Munroe Bergdorf, I am a model and
activist and I'm Emma Gannon I'm an
author, broadcaster, podcast host and
we're here to talk about feminism. So I
think for me the most simple definition
of feminism is equal opportunity and
choice but not necessarily expecting
women or men to make particular
decisions. For example not all women want
to be a CEO but they should have the
opportunity to be one if they want to. The
dictionary definition is equality
between the sexes , but I think it needs to be
broadened towards equality between
identities. When I think of feminism I do think of like my personal feminism I
think of my feminist activism.
I think that activism can be as small or
large as you can manage and no one
should feel like they should ever need
to be an activist. If it's going to be
detrimental to your safety then don't do
it,
but if it's something that you feel you
can do to help yourself and others, then one hundred percent. The other thing I think you could do
just to feel like you're maybe part of
something is celebrating other women in
small ways. I don't think feminism is
liking all women - there's loads of women
I don't like that's okay but I think
by just like retweeting someone's
campaign or I don't know following
someone who is like really different to
you and just like lifting other women up
in a way that's just like small acts of
lifting up others. For sure. So I'm obsessed with the slum flower. Oh
my god I'm obsessed. She's amazing - I
really feel like she's like a diamond in
the rough. I love that her hashtag is is
taking off. Taking off? #SaggyBoobsMatter...
Oh my god yes. I love that! It's got national attention and it's just a
hashtag on Instagram. I think that's
what's exciting right now as well. It's a
different take on body positivity isn't
it? That we're not really talking about... And Cardi B
obviously - an accidental
feminist icon. There's this Guardian
article written by an amazing poet with
Bridget Minamore and it's called "Can
I be a feminist and..." Mm-hmm... and I think
the answer is always yes
whatever that "and is" it's always a yes
isn't it? They don't need to be relative
to each other you know? Like can I be a
feminist and wear pink?
Can I be a feminist and wear makeup?
Can I be a feminist and not have
children? Like, what? Do you think there's
some sort of blurred lines with - so for
example, I freaked out the other day
because there was a spider in my house, I
hate spiders, and I made my boyfriend get
rid of the spider. Is that not feminist?
Like that you know small things like
that, I do question myself and just and
we were talking about chivalry recently
yeah like is it
unfeminist to want someone to open a
door for you? Yeah, I do get that guilty
feminist thing sometimes. I guess there's
always that social construct that we've
like learnt and then there's you know
that process of unlearning and then
existing between the two. I know so
many nice, well-intentioned men in my
life who still don't understand what
feminism means.They still find it
slightly aggressive, the term, if I go
into a room and say "yeah I'm a feminist"
I know a lot of people as well who prefer
the word 'humanist' but I think it's
missing the point because we need the
'fem' in there to prove the
point.
Feminism is still thought - it's for
everybody, it benefits everybody so when
we just like turn off and say humanist, I
think it's just getting away from the
issue. What really really annoys me is
women in the public eye that I really
respect when they just say "well I
wouldn't call myself a feminist" and just
like you've got an opportunity to use
your platform and it literally just
means equality of the sexes, how can you
not be a feminist? Absolutely everybody
should be a feminist. I so agree because
by saying "I'm a feminist" even the people
who aren't sure will then go and look it
up and then they'll read what it
actually means. There's this - the common
misconception that men don't benefit
from feminism, that men have anything to
contribute which is ridiculous when the
definition is equality and equality
means that neither can be in charge of
either and the reality is that men
dominate is so much of society in a way
that oppresses women. I think that if a
man isn't 100% secure within himself and
with his gender identity and
what his identity means within the
construct that is masculinity, then I can
understand how you can find a woman
that's comfortable within her identity,
I understand how you can find that quite
threatening. I totally agree. One thing
I've been thinking recently about this sort
of defensiveness when it comes to men, I
realized that a lot of the feminists
sort of debates or events, even private
Facebook groups like all of this stuff -
they do all include a lot of women I
feel like I need to include men more in
the feminism dialogue and I don't blame
some men, not all men, for feeling
slightly left out and actually I feel
like it's up to us as feminists to, you
know, group hug everyone in. Yeah I do
feel like misandry
which is the opposite to misogyny, I mean
that's just going to have such a
detrimental effect,
I think that feminism does need to be
inclusive and there needs to be a
narrative that is inclusive of men but
men also need to understand that
feminism is to largely liberate women is
not to liberate men further. Mm-hmm. For
me, my perspective on global feminism is
I've struggled with actually over the
past because I've always felt like I'm a
privileged white woman on a panel
talking about a pay gap in London like
that's never made me feel like I'm doing
that much in the massive wider scheme of
things. But there's a quote I read a
while ago I can't remember who said it
but they said that feminism is like a
patchwork quilt of like you doing your
bit. I'm just great believer that there's
no leader in feminism. There cannot just
be one person that's leading the pack
and I feel like that's where I've become
uncomfortable when people refer to
themselves as leaders of feminism. I feel
like every person is leading their own
personal journey and when it comes to
global feminism I completely agree -
I can't speak on what it's like to be
you know a trans woman in Indonesia and
what her feminist battle is. I think it's
all about passing the mic and using
whatever platform we have as privileged
people within the Western world to give
that person the microphone
and say "this is your chance to tell your
story" not me tell your story for you. I
think it's interesting with people who
don't follow this trend of wearing black,
for example, on the red carpet so at the
BAFTAs recently Frances McDormand
decided not to but she made a joke about
it on stage that she wasn't good at
compliance and that she'd worn a red
dress and people laughed and people
loved her so she got away with it, it's
fine. Kate Middleton wore a green dress
and everyone was like up in arms and I - isn't it
royal protocol to not get involved? -
Yeah apparently she can't wear, she can't
be political is that it? So she wore like
the closest darkest colour. I kind of like that she wore the closest thing to black.
Why do you think people have rules for some women
and rules for different women? Well this is
it - I think it's - society finds
women threatening or if they're not
a particularly lovable woman or the
nation's sweetheart
then I don't know the sense of I don't
really want to be on your side. I also
feel like there's a trend of really
lifting up people and then tearing them
back down. Like on the flip
side of any successful woman, like any, there's
always been backlash. For anybody that
calls out women for being feminists or
shames a woman for being feminist , that's just misogyny. Mm-hmm. Really. I
always think of it as erm, whenever I
write an article that might be slightly
controversial because I've said I'm a
feminist in it, I get these like trolls
that come out and I think of it as like
'Stranger Things' you know like the Upside
Down - I go into this like Twitter world
but I didn't know ever existed and
they've all got like the same profile
picture like waving a flag or something
and I'm just thinking "oh my god there's
so many of you that exist that don't like
feminist". But then I think also forcing
all of these people off of social media
is just creating a new platform where it
will just breed that kind of hate. I
think that there needs to be a balance.
It's difficult because there's a big
difference between using your freedom of
speech and abusing your freedom of
speech and I don't think that a lot of
people understand the
difference. I mean if I'm being honest
the future of feminism to me is we don't
talk about it. I think feminism has won
when we don't make videos about feminism.
Do you know what I mean? Like talking
about feminism is really important right
now because I think we can get lazy, we
can get complacent we can think yay
Time's Up,
it's all fixed whereas feminism is still
very much needed but I think I'd love it
for it not even to be a word. The fact
that the world is equal. I think exactly the same.
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