Elvis Mitchell: Thank you. Thanks for being
here. Spike, thanks. Spike Lee is a director.
Now, I know that sounds dumb and obvious,
but I think this is a point that has to be
made because so much controversy comes up
in a lot of his work. He's discussed as a
social force so often that I think that people,
and I mean critics too, lose sight of the
fact that there is a phenomenal body of work
that he's produced.
We're going to see in each of these clips
and through his conversation tonight is how
he uses humor, and drama, and sort of takes
everyday life and makes us pay attention to
the nuance and detail, and learns something
about ourselves. And we'll also see, I think,
and hear from him too how he's evolved as
a filmmaker, and what you're also going to
see is a real breath and ease in the work.
And the work has always been funny, which
is the thing we always forget about Spike
Lee, and you see him being called on Nightline
whenever something has happened or something
like that, and being offered up as a spokesman
and he's certainly articulate, but these are
funny movies, and that's just one of the aspects
of him that I think make this body of work
so potent and will make it stand the test
of time as well.
What I'd like to do before we get started,
just read you a list of names. Laurence Fishburne,
Samuel L. Jackson, Wesley Snipes, Delroy Lindo,
John Turturro, Nick Turturro, Rosey Perez,
Danny Aiello, Hallie Barry, Tisha Campbell,
Martin Lawrence. Now, these are all people
who either got their film debuts through Spike
or came to prominence as actors because of
Spike Lee.
You forget about that until you do what I
did and take a look at his entire filmography
over the course of a couple of dasy. You think,
"Well, Martin Lawrence was in Do The Right
Thing? Wait, wait. Nick Turturro was in Do
The Right Thing? Wait, what's going on here?"
And what you will see is that he's got an
ear for actors dialog as well.
There aren't many directors that are on I
think who give actors a chance to breathe
and give them space, and let them work in
a way that's interesting, and honest, and
adds some intelligence to the work, and Spike
is one of the rare who would do that. I mean,
there are lists of director that you hear
that are mentioned in the pantheon always.
Oliver Stone, Martin Scorsese, Robert Altman.
I think Spike Lee is a man who certainly has
turned around independent cinema, but is also
the first and justly celebrated African American
film director, and tonight we're going to
learn why. So, why don't we start off by taking
a look at a clip from his seminal work She's
Gotta Have It.
I think you said a couple of time before that
it's hard for you to watch She's Gotta Have
It, and I guess I'd like you to explain that
a little bit for me because I don't understand
why. It holds up remarkably well. I know it's
got to be a reminder of what a tough time
it was to get the picture made.
Spike Lee: No. I mean, the reason why I don't
like to look at it is not because it was so
hard to make, I just don't like the acting
in that movie. And anytime that this bad acting
in the film is either two reasons. One, the
wrong people were cast or the director wasn't
directing.
Spike Lee: So, that is why I don't look at
this film anymore. It's been five, six years
since I've seen it.
Elvis: And was this more of it than you wanted
to see tonight? Was this more that you wanted
to see tonight?
Spike Lee: No. This is a good scene that you
chose.
Elvis: I mean, I chose it to illustrate a
point because you talk about the acting being
problematic for you, and I think what it is
it's at the very least very expressive. I
mean, it's almost like a problem play where
people say what they want, and things happen,
and things get discussed. And I know you think
you've evolved a little bit, but you want
to evolve in the way you treat women in the
movie.
Elvis: But I think it's very interesting about
this movie in that Nola leads her life like
a man. She wants the same sort of sexual prerogatives
as a man, she doesn't want to be dismissed
or treated badly, and I don't think it's condescending
at all. I know that's a complaint that's been
lodged against the movie.
Spike Lee: Well, I think women were lined
up on both sides. I mean, you had women who
thought it was derogatory, then you have some
women who say it was a feminist film. So,
I think they would say it's split down the
middle, but that was the premise of the film
that this woman was leading her life as a
man as far as her sexuality goes, and what
would happen if that was the case, and how
would the men react with the tables turned.
So, that was the whole premise for it.
Elvis: Now, were you surprised of the success
of the movie because you think back to this
too, and most of the film we saw with black
people in those days were basically music
videos with rappers in them. I mean, it was
a real big deal to see a movie entirely-
Spike Lee: Rap wasn't event ... Not yet.
Elvis: There were a few. The early run DMC
videos. I mean, they weren't spending a lot
of money on them, but they were getting a
little bit of play.
Spike Lee: No. I mean, the way you saw black
people was in the Richard Pryor and the Eddie
Murphy movies.
Elvis: Not really because in the Eddie Murphy
movies, he always existed in this universe
by himself, and this is the first movie that
showed to my memory, an entire group of black
people just getting into an ordinary day.
A universe of black people, and whites got
to see, "God, is that the way? That's not
scary." And what it was is nobody was a martyr,
nobody was offered up as a case as a victim
or somebody who suffered unduly, but just
people getting through a day or through a
period of their lives and evolving over a
period of time as well.
Spike Lee: Well, the thing about She's Gotta
Have It, the reason why it was a success,
excuse me, was timing because I think this
is two years before people knew what AIDS
was about. So, we waited two years to do this.
I think that the general public, the reaction
toward it would have been much different,
and people looked at the character of Nola
Darling and her actions of how she's leading
her life sexually much different than they
did before anybody knew what AIDS was about.
Elvis: Did you feel when you were making the
picture that people were going to see it?
Spike Lee: Oh, we felt that the film will
be a hit if we could finish it, but we didn't
know where we were going to get the money
from.
Elvis: But did you think it was going to cross
over in the way that it did?
Spike Lee: Well, I don't really think of terms
of crossing over and that kind of stuff. I
just felt that there was going to be an audience
for this film and people would go. For me,
one of the most important things about this
film was just having gone to film school with
Jim Jarmusch, and Nolan Jim, and had his film
Stranger to Paradise being a hit.
Spike Lee: So, when that happened, and I pick
up a paper an ad for his film, which I'm not
saying is a derogatory, that's one of my favorite
films. It just made it seem like it's doable
now because here's somebody I know, somebody
who I went to school with who has a film that's
playing in the theater. So, it wasn't so farfetched.
Elvis: Well, I guess when I first saw Joe's
Bed-Stuy Barbershop, maybe you had problems
with the acting in that too, I don't know.
But I had thought it was really sort of compact
and trimmed piece of work, and the acting
again is pretty expressive. It's about people
trying to get points across, and the beginnings
of that thing I think runs through all your
pictures of people always either in pains
or amused by the way they have to try to explain
themselves to others.
Elvis: That's always going on when somebody
is trying to say who he is or what he's about,
and he puts his foot in his mouth or he doesn't
quite explain it in the way or other people
don't understand him. But Joe's Bed-Stuy Barbershop
was the first time I saw something like that,
that sort of took up a whole film instead
of it being about a student directing technique
or somebody trying to show off how smart his
writing was. It seemed to be a real sort of
character line in the piece.
Spike Lee: What we saw in NYU was really a
rental house. You got the equipment to make
the films because a degree, MFA in production
really is useless. When you come out of film
school and you're a director, I mean you want
to come out with a film because that's what's
going to get you work hopefully. And so, I
thought it would, but it didn't, so that's
why we had to raise the money independently
for the film She's Gotta Have It.
Elvis: Were you surprised that Joe's Bed-Stuy
Barbershop didn't get you or did it get you
a bunch of phone calls, and offer you projects
that you just didn't want to do?
Spike Lee: No. It got me an agent, but no
work though.
Elvis: I remember you saying, was that where
you got off from an after school special or
something like that after Joe's Bed-Stuy Barber-
Spike Lee: No, we didn't get one. We didn't
get anything.
Elvis: Well, after She's Gotta Have It and
it got the response that it did, did you sort
of feel like you were now part of the film
world or were you concerned about what you
do for your second picture?
Spike Lee: I really wasn't concerned because
I had written the script at School Days before
I written the script for She's Gotta Have
It, but I just knew it was too ambitious.
So, I knew what my second film would be, and
that was School Days. And with the success
of She's Gotta Have It, we were able to follow
up pretty quickly.
Elvis: Now, the film you were supposed to
make or the one you wanted to make that sort
of fell apart of borning was Messenger.
Spike Lee: Messenger.
Elvis: What was that about?
Spike Lee: It's about a bike messenger and
his family, and Jon Carlos Pasilos was supposed
to be in it and Larry Fishburne. But the money
never came together, so we were in pre-production,
but we actually never shot any film.
Elvis: Now, what happened exactly? The money
just sort of fell out or what?
Spike Lee: Well, the producer who said he
was going to produce didn't produce. So, the
money he promised that he would deliver, he
didn't deliver.
Elvis: And so, you pull this movie together
really quickly. I know this has become kind
of legend now, but it's still pretty amazing
to me.
Spike Lee: No, it wasn't quick because we
tried to shoot Messenger. I mean, we were
in pre-production the summer of '84, and then
I wrote She's Gotta Have It that winter, and
we shot She's Gotta Have It the next summer
'85. Then it came out August '86.
Elvis: Over how fast a period of time?
Spike Lee: 12 days we shot that.
Elvis: And for very little money?
Spike Lee: 175,000.
Elvis: But how much up front basically when
you started shooting?
Spike Lee: We had a $10,000 grant from the
Jerome Foundation to begin She's Gotta Have
It.
Elvis: And you also have some AFI money that
disappeared kind of quickly.
Spike Lee: Well, I had gotten the grant from
the American Film Institute for $25,000 for
Messenger. So, when Messenger fell through,
I thought that they let me slide over to She's
Gotta Have It, but they said, "No, we funded
you for Messenger. And since you're not making
that film, we have to take the money back."
Elvis: Now, one thing I always wanted to ask
you about, you're writing this picture, you've
cast it basically so you can do it with not
a lot of people, and then you're in it. How
did that happen that you cast yourself in
the picture?
Spike Lee: We couldn't afford to pay anybody
else. We had no money.
Elvis: And you were convinced you could do
it or it was just out of necessity?
Spike Lee: I mean, I never saw Mars as being
that big a role in She's Gotta Have It.
Elvis: You really didn't?
Spike Lee: Not really. So, it was a surprise
to me how people were smiling to Mars. It
was a bigger surprise of getting that call
from Wieden Kennedy who's an advertising agency
for Nike, and then put in Mars and Michael
Jordan together. And we did that for six years.
Elvis: When you start to do the commercials,
did you think about how Mars was sort of translating
to the world of commercials or?
Spike Lee: I had no idea that, as I said before,
that there will be an afterlife of Mars after
She's Gotta Have It. I mean, Mars was hip,
so he would wear Air Jordans, and he did,
and Michael Jordan's his favorite basketball
player. So, the advertising agency saw that
and they got the idea to put Mars with Michael
Jordan.
Elvis: Now, one of the things that sort of
surprised me that didn't happen immediately
was that the success of She's Gotta Have It
didn't make studios say, "Well, there's got
to be a wealth of this kind of material off
there," or, "We should encourage more black
film makers." Were you surprised that didn't
inspire another wave immediately? Because
you know how this stuff works in the movies.
Elvis: Well, one flying saucer movie succeeds,
they make 100 of them the next year.
Spike Lee: No, but I still think that She's
Gotta Have It and Hollywood Shuffle had really
started all those films, all the black films
being made.
Elvis: Yeah. But even when Hollywood Shuffle
came along, it was kind of more like a grassroots
response to what you had done than something
from on high. Somebody in a position of power
saying, "Well, we need to do something to
encourage this."
Spike Lee: Why would they want to do that?
Elvis: Well, let's see now. Your movie made
money, they want to make money, why not make
more movies like that? I mean, if the people
in an advertising agency was smart enough
to see it, it would make sense to make that
a studio would somehow get it.
Spike Lee: Well, eight and a half million
dollars is not a lot of money as far as a
studio is concerned. And they weren't convinced,
they're still not, but they weren't convinced
at how many other white movie going viewers
would go see films with black people in it.
Elvis: Yeah, but just getting back to the
profit mode. If you look at the movie that
cost all in $175,000 bringing back $8 million
dollars, that's not bad.
Spike Lee: Well, they made them, but I mean
it was no rush. I mean, they're still making
them now.
Elvis: What do you mean?
Spike Lee: Well, I mean there's people like
New Line that specialize in making films for
their African American markets that cost like
$4 million, and they end up making $35 million
dollars, stuff like that.
Elvis: But those aren't too far from exploitation
pictures of those movies.
Spike Lee: Well, some of them might be considered
that.
Elvis: Yeah. I guess some of them might. I
guess what I'm saying is that it made sense
to me because it's a movie that was good,
that people responding to. Maybe I'm belaboring
the point here, obviously I am, but if you
just look at it that way because they're always
talking about it. I remember in those days,
Exciting wrote a couple of pieces for various
magazines.
Elvis: Once a year, you'd see one article
somewhere with all of the studios has to say,
"We've got to make more of these black movies.
We know there's an audience out there for
them, and that never happened."
Spike Lee: Well, what was that year they made
19 one year? It was a couple of years ago.
I think it was 19.
Elvis: That seems like it may have been the
peak year though. I mean-
Spike Lee: That was the peak.
Elvis: Because I don't mean to compare it
to the blaxploitation era, but these movies
are all looked at and you certainly talked
about this as having a ceiling. They only
want to spend this much money, and on this
much money they only get this much return.
If they don't spend a lot of money on a movie
anyway, they sort of look down on us like
a poor cousin if they don't spend $50 to $60
million dollars to make it.
Spike Lee: True.
Elvis: It's good to be right. Now, since you've
written School Days first and you got to a
chance to make it, it was I think an incredibly
daring movie to make because it was a movie
about, well rivalries in the black community.
I think some-
Spike Lee: All we tried to do with that film
was use a predominantly black college as a
microcosm of African American community. So,
we wanted to show the petty and sometimes
superficial differences that keep us from
being more unified as a race. Differences
based upon hair texture.
Spike Lee: You got that song Straight and
Nappy whether you're light skinned or dark
skinned, and what class you come from. And
then we broke it down even further whether
you're in a frat or non-frat, whether you
were from the city or from the sticks. So,
we put all that stuff in the film.
Elvis: It's a movie that I remember shocking
a lot of people because one other thing I
find really interesting about your movies,
and something you've done is by exposing a
lot of African American culture into the mainstream.
You sort of helped people to understand or
brought some kind of understanding about.
I remember people saying to me, "Well, how
can black people not like other black people?"
Which is a very stupid thing for somebody
to say, but the point is that it was something
that people had not thought about before.
Spike Lee: Well, we also got criticized a
lot by African Americans for-
Elvis: Airing Dirty Laundry?
Spike Lee: Airing Dirty Laundry because of
this film.
Elvis: And were some of these black schools
sort of upset about the depiction of black
schools too?
Spike Lee: Well, we shot this film at my alma
mater Moore House. We began to shoot there
after three weeks in production. They kicked
us off. So, we had to finish at Clark College,
and Morris Brown, and Atlanta University,
but Spelman. We wanted to shoot Spelman, but
they never allowed us to shoot there.
Elvis: They wouldn't even hear about it?
Spike Lee: They weren't hearing it out.
Elvis: And what happened at Moore House? Why
did they run you out?
Spike Lee: Well, Moore House, their president
at the time felt that it would be detrimental
to black higher institutions of learning.
Elvis: Really? Why?
Spike Lee: Well, because the film took place
during a homecoming. I think a lot of people
said, "Well, how come you're not showing anybody
in the classroom?" But the film takes place
during a homecoming weekend. I mean, that's
the whole point.
Elvis: So, because it wasn't sort of being
shown as a center for higher education, it
was detrimental?
Spike Lee: That's what they felt.
Elvis: Oh man. Well, that kind of makes me
speechless too. So, I guess what we should
do at this point is to remind you of how good
School Days was. We should take a look at
a scene that I think illustrates ... First
of all, we can see how much more easier it
is with the camera that you have, but it sort
of illustrates-
Spike Lee: Well, that's not really a comparison
because I mean at first, I mean one of the
reasons why we were able to shoot She's Gotta
Have It in 12 days is because a large part
of that film, people talking directly into
the camera. So, that was the device, a technique
we knew we had to use because it doesn't take
any time to light somebody looking straight
into the camera. So, to compare that scene
with this and saying, "I'm more at ease with
the ..." That's not the right thing.
Elvis: Okay. There's one right and one wrong,
if you're keeping score out there. Now, let's
take a look at School Days. Very simple, straightforward,
I think even elegant scene that I neglected
to mention. It has Bill Nunn and Branford
Marsalis as two of the actors. Also, that's
the debut I think of Jerry Cowhig, Sam Jackson
were in Pulp Fiction.
Elvis: When I see a movie like this that really
sort of opens stuff up, and is an incredibly
ambitious thing to try as a second picture,
I was just wondering if you ever felt daunted
by what you were taking on. It's a lot to
do. As you know, it's just the physical terms
of getting all the music cues and everything
all lined up.
Spike Lee: No. We didn't see it like that.
This scene, I told you earlier, this is the
first day that we shot. The first day of filming
in School Days, and Kentucky Fried Chicken
down the block.
Elvis: Was that your first tie-in in the movies?
Spike Lee: No. We had tied in before in NYU,
but that after ... When She's Gotta Have It
came out in August, that November I knew I
was going to do School Days, but I was going
to do it for EyeWin Pictures because EyeWin
did ... When I gave them She's Gotta Have
It, I signed a three picture deal. So, School
Days was supposed to be for EyeWin.
Spike Lee: And so, that November was more
on homecoming. I wanted the cast to really
experience a homecoming on a black college
campus. We went down and EyeWin paid for a
whole bunch of people to go down for homecoming.
Spike Lee: At that time, the role played by
Tisha Campbell was going to be played by Vanessa
Williams and, I forgot her name. Someone else
was going to play the role played by Chyme.
And so, we all went down there, and then once
EyeWin saw that it was going to cost, they
didn't want to go over $4 million dollars.
Elvis: And what did you think it was going
to cost? What did you budget it?
Spike Lee: We knew it was going to cost around
six because of the musical numbers and stuff
like that. So, that's when they put it in
turnaround, and Columbia Pictures, David Picker
and David Putnam came through, and we did
it with them.
Elvis: We were just talking earlier too and
I remembered that the same weekend, this was
the big black explosion in 1988 if I remember,
Action Jackson with Carl Weathers, and Shoot
to Kill with Sydney Poitier, I think the entirety
of the black movement in 1988 and they all
came out in the same day with your picture.
Spike Lee: True. It came out the same day,
and I remember Carl Weathers calling me and
telling me, asking me to change the date,
but there's nothing I can do at that time.
Elvis: He actually called you up?
Spike Lee: Mm-hmm. I mean, it's not really
good business. I have all those three films
opening on the same day.
Elvis: Yeah. I mean, didn't you say something?
I mean because that's kind of an odd thing
to do.
Spike Lee: We were locked in that position
about the time we found out about the other
two films. It couldn't be moved.
Elvis: And that picture turned out to be one
of the biggest grossing pictures Columbia
released that year didn't it?
Spike Lee: Yeah. They had a terrible year.
Some of those films that David Putnam did
didn't work, and then he got kicked out, and
Dawn Steele came in, and Columbia literally
just tried to dump the film. But it ended
up making more money for them that year than
any other film they've released.
Elvis: So, you were there at Columbia with
Dawn Steele. Did she want to continue a relationship
with you?
Spike Lee: No, and it was mutual. And so,
the next film was Do The Right Thing, and
it was going to be at Paramount. But a couple
of executives at Paramount didn't like the
ending, and they wanted Mookie and Sal to
embrace at the end of the movie and sing ‘We
The World.’ So, we didn't do that, and I
knew this producer, executive Sam Kitt from
New York, and he had just gotten the job at
Universal Pictures.
Spike Lee: And so, that's where we did Do
The Right Thing.
Elvis: This is a question that just came while
I listened to you talk about this. Does the
movie industry seem incredibly stupid to you?
Spike Lee: Sometimes. But I mean, to be honest,
they don't know black people, don't know minorities.
And so, we're just like aliens to them.
Elvis: Yeah, yeah. That's obviously true.
But just from hearing you talk about these
things, it just seems like what they were
doing in terms of sheer business practice
didn't make any sense. You make a movie for
two different studios, and make more money
from seeing lots of other stuff. It would
just make sense if somebody swallowed hard
and say, "Well, we'll take a chance on you."
Elvis: I mean, I don't imagine that Do The
Right Thing was so expensive a proposition
that they walked away from that.
Spike Lee: Well, Universal did take a chance.
Elvis: Yeah, but no. But I'm saying Paramount
did. I mean, I know this happens all the time
where studios go ... A picture bounces from
one to another, to another. We can look at
the history of Malcolm X over the years.
Spike Lee: Well, these going to have creative
differences, and if you have somebody sign
you that doesn't like what you're trying to
do, then you leave.
Elvis: Yeah, but I just ... I don't know.
It's obvious somebody missed the point of
Do The Right Thing by saying something like
that.
Spike Lee: Well, I mean they weren't the only
ones. I mean, you had people like Joe Klein
who was saying that-
Elvis: Yeah. It's going to start a riot.
Spike Lee: ... this film would incite riots
all across America, and he wasn't the only
one.
Elvis: And I guess we should sort of just
make a historical note too that I guess Do
The Right Thing sort of came shortly after
Driving Miss Daisy, which was probably I guess
the big black wave of 1989.
Spike Lee: Well, that did win Best Picture
that year.
Elvis: So, it seems that Do The Right Thing
was kind of signaling that this is the beginning
of a whole new world, doesn't it?
Spike Lee: Well, that's what we thought at
that time, but-
Elvis: It seems like, and maybe you've said
this before, the movie sort of made a big
impact in New York and probably helped to
get David Dinkins elected, didn't it?
Spike Lee: Well, that was really one of the
goals that we wanted the film to come out
right before the run off between Dinkins and
Mayor Ed Koch. And I still feel that Mayor
Ed Koch was responsible for a lot of the racial
climate in New York City, in his two terms
as mayor. The original idea for Do The Right
Thing came from the Howard Beach incident
where three black men driving home from work,
the car has a flat, they go in this pizzeria
to use the phone, New World Pizzeria in the
Howard Beach section of Queens, and they called
AAA.
Spike Lee: They used the phone. They were
chased out of there by a gang of bat wielding
Italian American news, and one of the guys
that tried to run away runs on the highway
and gets hit by a car. So, that's where the
initial idea came from for Do The Right Thing.
Elvis: Now, you also made a spot for Jesse
Jackson for his presidential campaign too.
Do you feel yourself to be more of a political
filmmaker than anybody else making movies
now in the mainstream? Because I do think
of you as a mainstream filmmaker.
Spike Lee: I think Albert Stone also does
stuff with a lot of politics, and definitely
I feel, tries not to make mindless entertainment.
Films that take some semblance of a brain
to understand.
Elvis: Some semblance sounds right.
Spike Lee: Well, we disagree.
Elvis: We disagree. Yes we do.
Spike Lee: I like Oliver a lot.
Elvis: It won’t be the last time tonight.
I think though when you said mindless entertainment,
that seems to be a thing that has sort of
cemented your reputation that you've always
sort of used movies as a way to sort of provoke
or start a conversation about something. Does
it start there for you in a lot of cases?
Spike Lee: No. It's just really a film I wanted
to see. So, I'm not really saying I want to
make a film that's going to say this and say
that. It really is just a story, and out of
the story, those other things come, those
other things evolve.
Elvis: But that sort of seems implicit because
the movies are for the most part, provocative
in terms of subject matter.
Spike Lee: Yeah, but I mean Do The Right Thing
was ... It's the hottest day of summer. I
remember seeing this Twilight Zone or One
Step Beyond, something like that, and when
I was little it was this show about the scientists
who would come up with some type of theory
that says the murder rate goes up after 95
degrees. In all through the show, you're seen
looking at this thermometer, and at the end
of the show it goes 95 degrees, and he gets
murdered.
Spike Lee: So, I mean that also had a lot
to do with that film because just growing
up in New York, you don't have to be a scientist
to see what happens when it really starts
to get hot. People act differently. So, I
just wanted to have this one block in the
hottest day of the summer in a 24 hour day
period.
Elvis: But when you say that you wanted the
movie to have an effect on the New York mayoral
election, then that implies some awareness
to make it stir.
Spike Lee: That came out of evolution. That
was not the first thought in my mind.
Elvis: When did you start working on the script?
Spike Lee: When I was doing a post-production
of School Days.
Elvis: School Days? So, it would be what?
'87?
Spike Lee: '87.
Elvis: Well, I think now is the time to take
a look at this clip from Do The Right Thing,
which maybe this time you will agree show
some evolution is a director. But I think
what we really get a sense of in this scene
is the emotional impact of these movies, specifically
this one and that's why at the end of the
picture is so overwhelming because we are
invested in these characters in the movie.
So, let's take a look at this clip from Do
The Right Thing.
Elvis: Your first Oscar nomination, and I
guess I thought the movie would make probably
a bigger splash at the Oscars that it ended
up making.
Spike Lee: Why?
Elvis: It had a lot of heat, a lot of people
talked about it. You can't deny that it's
a good movie. These are all things that should
make it Oscar worthy. Again, it's no Driving
Miss Daisy, but I think it has its merits.
Spike Lee: Well, we received two academy award
nominations. Dan Aiello for best supporting
actor, and myself for best supporting-
Elvis: Best screenplay.
Spike Lee: Excuse me. Best original screenplay.
But it was after that experience that we really,
since then, not really try to put too much
merit in the academy award nominations. I
mean, you look at that film and see what they
chose. I mean, from the academy, when they
give a film the best picture award, they say,
"This is the best we have to offer. This exemplifies
what ..."
Elvis: American filmmaking is.
Spike Lee: What American filmmaking is about.
And when they chose Driving Miss Daisy with
that role that Morgan Freeman played, that
you could look at Ray and Rahim were bugging
Mookie, then it's obvious which black males
they're more comfortable with.
Elvis: Yeah. Yeah.
Spike Lee: So, we don't really don't need
validation from the academy or-
Elvis: But were you surprised because nominally
do ... Was representing the best for American
filmmaking around the world, and I suspect
that we probably made a few academy voters
reach for new batteries for their pacemakers
or something because it's not, as you said,
the kind of black men that they were used
to seeing on the screen.
Spike Lee: It didn't surprise us that this
is going to happen, and I mean look what happened
last year. We had 319-something nominations,
only-
Elvis: One African American.
Spike Lee: The woman Diane Houston for-
Elvis: For her short subject.
Spike Lee: ... her short subjects. And you
look at the work the people did in front of
them behind the camera. So, I mean it's not
a surprise. And then the academy, they roll
out Whoopi Goldberg who is MCing, Quincy Jones
who is producing this. So, how it could be
racist? We had Whoopi. I mean, Whoopi was
doing MCing and Quincy was producing it.
Spike Lee: But that has nothing to do with
the filmmaking though.
Elvis: But do you think that there's some
validity in the things that Jesse Jackson
was saying, I mean in mounting his protest
against the academy?
Spike Lee: I think that he should be brought
upon the academy. At the same time, I think
we have to realize what the academy is about,
and they're about promoting their own, and
they really don't see us as a part of Hollywood.
If they did, I think that would be reflected
in the way they vote.
Elvis: Well, maybe in the kinds of movies
that got made. When you mentioned that wave
of 19 pictures, have you hard pressed to name
like five of them, and I'm sure they want
to be tough with you besides the ones that
you've made, I guess, that year. I guess I
would expect that you might be feeling a little
tired at this point because you're still looked
upon for good reason in a lot of case as being
the standard bearer for African American cinema.
Spike Lee: Why should I be tired?
Elvis: Wouldn't you like some company up there?
Spike Lee: I don't really look at it like
that Elvis. I don't see it as I mean me being
some lofty perch and no one else there. I
think that everyone has to do their own work,
and explore their own vision, and I think
it's good that there are other African American
filmmakers making films that have nothing
to do with the stuff I do even look or sound
like I do because we're not one monolithic
group.
Elvis: But filmmakers do end up hanging out
or spending a lot of time together or people
in that community do.
Spike Lee: I mean, some do, but most of the
African American filmmakers live in LA, and
I'm not out there that much. So, I know a
couple that I hang out together, but I'm rarely
out there.
Elvis: I remember, and I don't know if you've
read this, a pretty divisive piece in a New
Yorker's film issue of a couple of years ago,
a profile of the Hughes Brothers, and what
they seem to go sort of out of their way to
sort of single out people. And I wondered
what you thought about them. I mean, they
were attacking you and John Singleton, and-
Spike Lee: I just think they just showed the
immaturity and how young they were. So, I
didn't really sweat it.
Elvis: Have you spoken to them since then?
Spike Lee: No. I didn't call them up about
it or anything like that.
Elvis: I understand a young artist. You come
up, you feel like you're full of whatever.
Four year olds. you want to tear down what's
come before you. But at the same time, it
feels to me in a lot of ways that the African
American filmmaking forum is so sort of shaky
that it can't stand too many hits from the
inside.
Spike Lee: Well, but if you don't know your
history and you think that there was nobody
there before you, not just Spike Lee, but
I'm not talking about Ozzy, or Michael Schultz,
or Gordon Parks or Micheaux.
Elvis: Sure.
Spike Lee: So, they don't know there was somebody
there before them, then you really can expect
more than the way they act.
Elvis: That's what it is because they sort
of pride themselves on knowing film history,
and in fact should be able to quote from the
rest of cinema pretty easily. We've talked
about Scorsese and other directors they want
to try to emulate. And odd quote, they didn't
want to be limited to just making black movies.
Spike Lee: Well, I really can't comment on
the Hughes Brothers. I don't know really how
they operate or how they think.
Elvis: No, I just thought was for somebody
you want to be limited to the idea of black
cinema to me, being limiting is a ... You've
shown that it's not limiting at all, and then
the kinds of movies that you've made.
Spike Lee: Well, a lot of us fall into that
trap where we think that just the word black
attached to you. Black director, black actor
makes you become limited. But I never felt
like that.
Elvis: Well, I think the movie of yours that
was probably at the time the most eagerly
awaited, and certainly among the most controversial
was Malcolm X, and let's take a little okay
at that now and then talk about it.
Spike Lee: Well, when they were in the thing
praying, I remember Ernest Dickinson shot
that, and Ernest Dickinson shot all my films
from NYU up the Malcolm X. And I remember
we just wanted to try to hold that first scene
as much as possible. So, we had like a long
dolly into the both of them and doing that.
Spike Lee: Then once we got close, we started
to cut back and forth. But that shot with
Al Freeman Junior who plays Elijah Muhammad,
I remember that being a very difficult special
effects shot. We had a 
motion controlled camera that went around
Denzel.
Spike Lee: The reason why this film worked
was because Denzel's performance. He was great,
and I say this every time if I can, and he
was robbed. So, I mean, everybody was robbed
at the academy awards, and that was Denzel.
Spike Lee: No disrespect though to Al Pacino.
Elvis: Al Pacino.
Spike Lee: But if he's going to win an Oscar,
give it to him for Dog Day Afternoon.
Elvis: Or the Godfather Part Two.
Spike Lee: Serpico, Godfather Part Two, but
sent Scent of a Woman? Nuh-uh.
Elvis: Well, certainly is a great performance,
but it also works in concert with the picture.
You said to me at one point, you thought this
is the movie you were born to make. What's
it's like-
Spike Lee: Now I remember saying that. I might
have-
Elvis: Well, it's in print now. Anybody got
PlayBoy magazine out there? We can pull it
out. And it seems like you really came through,
and there was a lot of controversy surrounding
that as you recall the thing with Norman Jewison
to talk about you forsaking the James Baldwin
out Arnold Perl screenplay. What's it like
to look at the movie now?
Spike Lee: It's some of the best work I've
done.
Elvis: When you see the movie now, does it
seem like a lot of that controversy was just
kind of silly, and just ... It seemed like
a lot of people didn't even want to give you
a chance to make the movie. You were being
judged before the picture ever came out.
Spike Lee: Well, but even at the time I understood
why this was happening because Malcolm mean
so much to everyone. So, I gave people the
benefit of the doubt. People like Ameer Baraka.
That's why they were saying the stuff they
were saying.
Elvis: But he was not a big, let's say Malcolm
supporter.
Spike Lee: Maybe not then, but now ... I mean,
he was defending Malcolm X and his attacks
against me.
Elvis: But he's also seems to be using it
as kind of a springboard to say, "Somebody
should make a movie about Malcolm X," that
he had written if I recall.
Spike Lee: Well, maybe not him, but I mean
he said he has several scripts that should
have made also.
Elvis: This brings up the question for me.
Do you think there's a difference between
a director and a storyteller, and which of
those do you think are your strengths?
Spike Lee: Well, yeah I think there's a difference.
A director is someone who could just know
how to make a pretty picture and that kind
of stuff, but the storyteller, someone is
going to draw the audience in have them forget
that they're sitting in a room watching light
on a screen.
Elvis: And which do you think is your strengths?
Spike Lee: Storytelling.
Elvis: Storytelling? Because you don't get
talked about very often as a storyteller.
That's why I was asking that. It's one of
the things again, that I think are obscured
by the way people seem to react to you as
a public figure rather than reacting to you
as a filmmaker, and a storyteller, and a director.
Spike Lee: Well, you know why this happens
is because number one, I think that I'm in
my films. So, I think most directors, I mean
unless you ... Nobody knows. I mean, who are
the faces that you know? Wood Allen, Spielberg.
Elvis: Alfred Hitchcock.
Spike Lee: Oliver Stone. I mean living.
Elvis: Wow.
Spike Lee: I mean living.
Elvis: Okay. I guess Hitchcock is dead. Okay.
Spike Lee: So, when your face is known and
you do other stuff besides make films, and
people start to-
Elvis: Single you out, you think?
Spike Lee: Not singling you out, but they
get sidetracked I think, by what they feel
the persona of Spike Lee is rather than just
doing what they're supposed to be doing as
a film critic that's paid by publications
or newspapers to review the film. And so,
often reviews I read about my films is as
you said before, it's not really about the
work, about Wynn Thomas' production design
or Ernest Dickinson cinematography of Ruthie
Carter's costumes or the scores by my father
or Terence Blanchard. It's about whether they
like or dislike Spike Lee whether it has to
do with Nike commercials, whether I should
be allowed to sit court side at Knicks games.
Spike Lee: It's just stuff that has nothing
to do with the films.
Elvis: Or whether you're a racist, which comes
up all the time. People, as I was on a plane
and I was talking to somebody because I had
a bunch of clips that I was looking at on
the plane, and somebody goes, "Oh, that Spike
Lee, he's a racist." I said, "Why?" And this
is somebody who had never seen a movie you
had made.
Spike Lee: I mean, those are the ones that
usually say that.
Elvis: Well, why do think that people think
that though? Why does that seem to be something
they associate with you based on not having
seen any of your movies even?
Spike Lee: Well, I mean my best known films
I have dealt with race relations in this country.
Do The Right Thing, from Malcolm X, Jungle
Fever. And so, therefore if you point out
how racist this country is, therefore are
you a racist to try and negate what you're
saying?
Spike Lee: And the media has a lot to do with
that. I think that the most damaging thing
has ever been done to me was just cover story
Esquire.
Elvis: Oh yeah. What was the name of that
piece? Remind people what it was called.
Spike Lee: Yeah. It was Undercover Esquire
when Malcolm X was out, and the title of the
article was Spike Lee Hates Your Cracker Ass.
And the way they positioned it was like it
was a quote, like those words actually came
out of my mouth where I said something close
to that, which is totally false. If you don't
know my films, but you know I'm a filmmaker
and you see this magazine, and you see this
big giant headline, why would you want to
see my films?
Elvis: These movies…How are they reacted
to in Europe where they can't be the same
kind of sort of media phenomenology that there
is here?
Spike Lee: No. I mean, they're just as racist
in Europe as-
Elvis: No. Do you have the same kind of play?
Do they call you racist there too and not
get that as well, or do they play differently
there?
Spike Lee: No, we get the same stuff. I mean,
I'm not saying it's like that across the board
here in the States or in Europe, but it does
pop up.
Elvis: Well, there's obviously still got a
ways to go in race relations. Could have ever
seen that movie, I guess it was earlier this
year, Hate by-
Spike Lee: The guy that rips me off all the
time.
Elvis: Yeah. It was Do The Right Thing is
staged like a Benetton commercial. It just
seemed like he was Do The Right Thing.
Spike Lee: Yeah. But you see, his first film
was a rip off of She's Gotta Have It.
Elvis: Gotta Have It. Yeah.
Spike Lee: What's the guy's name?
Elvis: God, what is his last name? His first
name is Mathieu and I forget it, but I figure
at the very least he should be calm to thank
you or send you a check or something.
Spike Lee: No. He denies there's any similarities
at all.
Elvis: Oh. They can call him the French Spike
Lee.
Spike Lee: He doesn't like it.
Elvis: Well, I think a clip I like to show
now just to give people understanding of the
breath of your work, and that's not all specifically
about race or sexuality, but about people
is I think the sort of the unjustly ignored
movie Crooklyn, which a lot of people haven't
really seen or haven't seen at all. It's a
great movie, nothing some is a really-
Spike Lee: Well, all nine are on videotape
now.
Elvis: Well, before we get-
Spike Lee: Well, I mean all nine of 10.
Elvis: Okay. Well, before we get into the
price point of the videos, let's take a look
at this clip from Crooklyn. A movie that didn't
get the attention it deserved I think. Why
do you think that was?
Spike Lee: You never really know what's going
to happen with the film. As I said before,
everything is timing, it's what audiences
want to see, what else is out in the theaters
at the same time whether the studio was behind
it, all that kind of stuff.
Elvis: Which of those factors do you think
sort of weighted on that? Do you think that
the timing was bad for a movie like that,
that the studio wasn't behind it? I mean which
of that?
Spike Lee: Well, I mean it's not really a
simplistic answer. I think that all those
things I mentioned had a lot to do with it.
Elvis: One thing about your movies is that
each is a departure from the one that's come
before it. I don't know if this is conscious
or not to be looking for something, a way
to sort of engage yourself in the filmmaking
process again, and each story is very different.
And this one feels a lot more intimate than
all of the movies that came before it. It's
a real departure.
Spike Lee: Well, I don't know if it was a
real departure, but-
Elvis: You don't think so? Is it not like
Malcolm X? I mean, it's following this girl
over a portion of her life, and the relationships
with her family.
Spike Lee: Well, in a lot of ways the film
was like Jungle Fever because really it's
centering on a family. Of course, I think
that family in Jungle Fever feels a lot more
dysfunctional than-
Elvis: I hope so.
Spike Lee: ... than Crooklyn, but this original
story, as I said before, of my sister and
brother came to me. They had written it without
even telling me, and I liked it, but there
were some things I wanted to incorporate.
So, we wrote it all together, and just some
of the stuff is semi-autobiographical in the
film.
Spike Lee: I think my sister wrote it. She
said, "Our mother died of cancer." So, after
she finished writing the script that this
is the catharsis that she needed because she
never really enabled to get over the death
of our mother, and that was like a long time
ago.
Elvis: What was it like for you then in making
the picture? You must've had some of those
that are emotional sort of re-experiences
you were doing.
Spike Lee: Not really. I mean, people ask
me that, "Was it hard to do that stuff?" But
I mean, I didn't approach this film as I was
telling the story of our family growing up
in Brooklyn.
Elvis: It's a pretty joyful movie in a lot
of ways too. I mean, there's a lot of fun
in it.
Spike Lee: Well, what was fun was trying to
recreate that look, that era of the early
'70s with the Afros, and the clothes, and
the music, and looking at all those shows
as a part of this family, trying to find the
song that they sang on the show that will
be good enough to use. And also, going through
all those stuff with the old Soul Train shows
too.
Elvis: Well, the thing that I really like
about it is that it reminds me of a lot of
great black fiction. It's one of the first
movies I remember seeing that has a real strong
sense of black community, and the sort of
sense that the saying you always hear, "It
takes a village to raise a child." Well, there's
a village in this block, and everybody knew
everybody, and there's that whole sort of
sense of connectedness for good or bad, and
how it shaped the way these kids led their
lives.
Elvis: And I don't recall anything like that.
Spike Lee: But I mean, if you look at that
film though, Elvis, I mean that block is not
predominantly black. The two houses on either
side of the family, the crazy guy, and the
Italian-American family on the other side.
So, I mean, we really tried to mirror the
block we grew up in, which was a whole lot
of different people on it.
Elvis: There's two certainly. I mean, there
is this sense of that block being a world
unto itself. When I asked you if you had any
sort of emotional sort of remembrances about
it, I just wondered if you miss that world
because that world doesn't really seem to
exist anymore, and it's never played out in
fiction really for this audience.
Spike Lee: Well, I do miss it. I mean, all
those games that we tried to recreate in the
film, and tried to show these kids. They had
no idea what those games were. Skellies, Spin
the Top, Johnny on the Pony, Stoop Ball, Strat-O-Matic
Baseball, Rock'em Sock'em robots. We had to
teach them everything. Stick ball, I mean,
all these games we grew up playing on the
streets of New York were replaced by video
games.
Spike Lee: And so, that stuff at the beginning
of the film where the ... I forgot the name
of the game where the can is the ... Hot Piece
of Butter with the belt, and the can in the
middle of the thing, all that stuff has been
lost forever because these kids don't know
it.
Elvis: It's interesting too that because the
way you use music in the movies, and that's
always been a real strong part. This was the
first time of the music I saw it have a real
sort of emotional connection for a lot of
people because these were all songs that a
lot of the people in the audience I saw the
movie with had heard before, and it sort of
really pulled people back into the era. But
it wasn't sentimental about the period then.
What I mean is there's this real sort of lack
of sort of cheap sentiment in your movies
in general.
Spike Lee: No. We tried to stay away from
that, but I think what really drew me to the
picture, to the script is that you never really
had seen a film that it was about a young
African American girl, 10 years old growing
up, really in a household of men. Four brothers-
Elvis: Right.
Spike Lee: ... and a dog, and her best friend
is her mother and how she tries to continue
to live in this world with her when she loses
her best friend and her mother.
Elvis: And that awful sense of separation
she has just when she has to go down South
and is away from her family. I mean, the way
I've heard people talk about A Little Princess
last year is a way I thought they were talked
about this picture. I had more people seeing
it.
Spike Lee: Yeah. I liked that film a lot.
We got criticized a whole lot for the sequence
down South with anamorphic lenses, but I'm
not trying to be stubborn or I made a mistake,
but I don't think it was a mistake to shoot
that scene like that. We wanted to convey
to the audience how Troy was viewing the world
because she had grown up in Brooklyn, New
York and never been outside Brooklyn. I mean,
the City of Manhattan.
Spike Lee: I mean the City of New York. So,
she had never seen a whole bunch of trees,
and grass, and just the way that her cousin
was living with the whole church thing, and
this crazy art. And so, to convey the best
way her sense of being displaced, that's why
we chose to shoot that entire sequence with
the anamorphic lenses, and I heard that people
were yelling at the projectionist.
Spike Lee: I think after the first week of
release, Columbia Pictures ... I mean, excuse
me, Universal started to hand out flyer to
people before they're going in saying that
there's not a problem, but I think that the
people who probably saw the first time, saw
a film with black and white and color cut
together. Probably we were experiencing the
same things, so we just felt it was a right
choice.
Elvis: Now, we should get to your current
release I guess. Talk about Get On The Bus,
which in a way is kind of being your 10th
picture, coming out 10 years after She's Gotta
Have It is in a way kind of a return for you.
It's sort of down and dirty filmmaking.
Elvis: You made it for not a lot of money
or not a very long period of time. Did you
feel like you want to do it? I've heard Scorsese
saying from time to time that he wants to
sort of go back and make movies, and make
them fast, and not deliberate so much over
them and just get them done. Was that part
of the consideration for you?
Spike Lee: I mean, that was part of the consideration,
Elvis. But the reason why we had to shoot
it so fast is because that's all the money
we had. We only had $2.4 million dollars to
shoot, and when you had that little money,
that dictates that you shoot the film in a
very short time. So, Get On The Bus was shot
in 18 days, three six day weeks.
Spike Lee: We shot in and around LA, then
flew to Nashville, Tennessee where we shot
a week and around there, and then we flew
to DC. The final week was six days in and
around the Washington, DC area, and we had
a unique way of financing this film. This
financed by 15 African American men.
Spike Lee: People like Will Smith, Wesley
Snipes, Danny Glover, Johnnie Cochran-
Elvis: Robert Guillaume was one of them?
Spike Lee: Who?
Elvis: Was Robert Guillaume one of them?
Spike Lee: Robert Guillaume, myself, the screenwriter,
Reggie Bythewood, and Reuben Cannon is one
of the producers and cast the film. The reason
why we chose to do it that was two reasons.
It was good business sense because Columbia
Pictures wanted to finance the film outright,
but we felt that we should be able to raise
$2.4 million dollars.
Spike Lee: And once we did raise that, then
we sold it to Columbia for 3.6 in a negative
pickup deal. And because of that excess, that's
how we're able to present investors a check
a week before the movie opened with their
initial invest plus 15% interest on the money
before the movie even opened.
Elvis: I've heard about all this because I
was at the march. I thought about that moment,
and I don't know if you were there for this,
where one of the speakers said, "I want every
black man in this crowd to hold a dollar bill
and raise up his fist." I actually remember
doing that and looking on that crown, and
just sort of seeing ... I just feel this enormous
sense of empowerment and thinking so much
is possible.
Elvis: So, to see this movie come out that
spirit, financed that way just seemed to really
echo that to me.
Spike Lee: Well, we felt that if we wanted
to be true to the spirit of the march, which
we're saying we need self-reliance and self-dependence,
and knowing also that African Americans are
going to spend in excess of $400 billion dollars
this year alone in the United States, we are
America's biggest consumer as far as race
goes. So, therefore I just knew that we should
be able to raise $2.4 million dollars for
this film, and it was a lot harder than I
thought it would be, but we were still able
to get the money.
Elvis: I just wonder, what did you feel like
at the march?
Spike Lee: I didn't go to the march.
Elvis: Did you not go?
Spike Lee: I watched it on television. Three
days before the march, I had a knee operation.
So, I had to watch on CNN.
Elvis: Because it was the most amazing thing
I've ever been to in my life. I mean, to call
it the nation time version of Woodstock would
just be diminished a little bit because I've
never felt that way about anything in my life,
and I just wonder just by watching if you
felt that you had to do something. Define
some way to dramatize-
Spike Lee: No. I'm not going to lie. When
I was looking at the march, I felt the same
way you did, Elvis. But at no point in time
did I think there was movie in it. I was hoping
that somebody was there shooting footage for
a documentary for the historical archival
stuff. But I did not know there was a film
in it, and two of the three producers Bill
Borden and Barry Rosenbush were watching TV,
and they were watching the news, and there
was this segment about a group of African
American men who returned from DC by bus to
Los Angeles.
Spike Lee: This same group had went to DC
on the bus as strangers, but had come back
as lifelong friends. And then they got the
idea for the film. But being white and Jewish,
they felt it might be a little bit difficult
to do a film on the march without some help.
So, then they called Reuben Cannon, and then-
Elvis: Who's a well known black casting director.
Spike Lee: Yes. And then Reuben called me
and said, "We want to fly to New York and
meet with you." And so, I said, "Okay. Come
on." And then they took the red eye and we
met the next day, and I said, "I'll do the
film." And then we got Reggie to write the
script, and in two months we were shooting.
Spike Lee: We started to shoot the film in
April 1st, this past April.
Elvis: Because you were determined to get
out the anniversary of the march?
Spike Lee: Yes. We didn't know we wanted to
do it exactly the same, the one year anniversary
march, but some time around there.
Elvis: Well, I think we should do tonight
is thank Spike for being here, and most importantly
thank him for the body of work that will endure
for many years to come. Spike, thank you.
Spike Lee: Thank you Elvis. Thank you for
coming. Thank you.
