Welcome to the Explore
the circular economy show by the
Ellen MacArthur Foundation, the
show where we discuss, debate
and explore all the ways to
shift from a take make waste
linear economy to a circular
one. One where we design out
waste, we keep products in use,
and we regenerate natural
systems. I'm Reniera, and I'm
going to be your host today
along with..
Hi, I'm Sarah. I'm the
Government and Cities Network
Manager here at the Foundation
and I'm really excited for
today's episode. Today we've got
two great speakers with us,
we've got Joseph and Joshua.
Joseph comes from Ghana, where
he is a social entrepreneur,
he's an artist and
philanthropist. And in 2017, he
founded the The Agbogblo.Shine
Initiative and works with a
group of young entrepreneurs to
turn e-waste found at the
Agbogbloshie dump site into
high-end furniture. We're also
joined by Joshua Palfreman who
is currently in Cape Town, which
is where Sarah and I come from.
So we're very jealous. But he
works throughout Africa as a
waste management specialists
supporting businesses and
countries throughout Africa in
dealing with solid waste.
Welcome to the show,
Joseph and Josh, we're really
really excited to have you here.
Absolute pleasure. We are
assuming that most people tuning
in are tuning in using their
laptop computer. And I guess
we've been wondering a little
bit if they know exactly what
happens to their laptop once
they've finished using it.
Joseph I wonder if you have any
ideas about where these laptops
might be ending up?
Well, that's a good
question. Um, I think one of the
most interesting things for me,
when I first discovered
Agbogbloshie was as Africa's
largest electronic waste dump
site, for me, it was really, you
know, something to behold of,
you know, an e-waste dystopia,
which has about over 215,000
tonnes of, you know, electronic
waste and other negative
externalities. But they're every
single, you know, yeah,
[inaudible] and there's a
picture of me there for the
first time with my team in an
orange jumpsuit. And if you look
at that image, it just shows you
that sort of the value chain in
which aspects of corruption and
sort of inefficiencies in the
corporate worlds and tech sort
of have shunned most of the
e-waste towards that oddworld
which happens to be Ghana,
unfortunately.
You use the word dump
site there, and I think it would
be really useful for us to
explore, why is it not a
landfill? What is the difference
between landfill and dump sites?
I think landfill is a term that
is here in Europe, we're way
more familiar with what's the
difference?
I think when I said
dumpsite the way it differs in
in Ghana, for example, is that
it's an ecology in of itself,
whereby you have people in the
informal sector who are falling
through the cracks of society,
dwelling and working there. And
sort of, in a way, either
burning the parts of the e-waste
components for salvaging or
precious metals to then resell
but I think in this case with a
with a dump site, it's sort of
like an informal sector ecology
in of itself. And that's what
you have, with all the negative
externalities atAgbogbloshie in
Ghana.
Yes, so it's not an
engineered lined landfill that
we get in many developing
countries and even developed
countries around the world. It's
just a piece of land where a lot
of waste is ending up.
Exactly like a de facto
state of just a plethora of of
electronic waste and, you know,
just not managing the enemy
structured form. No.
And why has it landed
up there? I mean, why in Ghana?
Why outside Accra?
You know, I think
there's, there are studies that
show that a lot of more
developed Western countries,
like the US, you know, have sort
of the electronic waste shipped
to less developed countries in
the global south, which Ghana
forms a part of in the sub
Saharan region. And so you
typically find, as I previously
enumerated aspects of, you know,
corruption or inefficiencies or
sort of just having this illegal
dumping of e-waste to less
developed countries where
infrastructure and policies
aren't as stringent, you know.
And so I think that that's why
they sort of end up here. And
that's kind of the value chain,
you know, that that it creates.
And then you talked a
bit about the the informal
sector, and what are the sort of
informal activities that are
going on at the Agbogbloshie
dump site? And what are the
sorts of conditions that people
who are working there and
undertaking those activities
working in?
Well, you know, it's
very interesting. There's an
image whereby I'm sort of like,
on a bunch of motherboards at
Agbogbloshie. And you have, what
you realise is that motherboards
that are found in like discarded
laptops have industrial gold,
and so you have artisans in the
informal sector working to
extract that. You have
individuals burning copper wires
to extract the copper in its
pure form, subsequently inhaling
the harmful carcinogens and the
toxins that come with that, you
know, and you have heavy metals
that end up polluting the ground
in and of itself. So just have
all these really, really
detrimental effects that come as
a result of, you know, the human
activity and the micro
entrepreneurs that work in that
sort of like, de facto dystopian
state. So it's, it's, it's quite
tragic. But having said that, it
sort of like, is a huge source
of livelihood for so many people
who feel compelled to do that.
Most of the dump site is filled
with daily wage earners who live
below the poverty line.
We've had a question
that's coming from YouTube that
may be I think, is a good one
for Josh to answer. Josh, could
you tell us why Africa accepts
this waste and e-waste and if
that really is the case?
Yeah. Well, I'll touch
on what Joseph said. I mean,
very often the dumping charges
that these engineered landfills
in Europe or the United States
are extremely expensive. So you
know, it can cost upwards of 85
US dollars to 150 US dollars, or
it could be completely illegal
to dump that waste per metric
tonne sorry at an engineered
landfill. So very often the
export economics of shipping
that waste to another country
that has a much lower
landfilling cost in Tanzania and
Kenya, for example, the
equivalent unit is only $1.50
per metric tonne to dump your
waste at the landfill. So that
just provides you know at larger
volumes an astronomical saving
for these countries. But this is
not meant to exist for hazardous
waste materials like chemicals
and paints and certainly
electronic waste which has heavy
metals in it. That was meant to
be ruled out in the Basel
convention decades ago. And a
lot of this is kind of falling
through the cracks unfortnately.
Thanks for that Josh,
going back to you, Joseph. I
wonder if you could talk to us
about the opportunity that you
saw in this mess that is
Agbogbloshie. Why did you start
your initiative and your work on
the dump site? And what really
was the starting point?
Well, that's a good
question. So, um, I studied at
Ashesi University. And part of,
you know, in about 2017
community service hours were a
prerequisite in a course called
Leadership and very important
photographer, because I'm an an
odd patient of sorts, but a very
famous photographer, Fabrice
Monteiro, who won the Green
Peace photography prize in, I
think it was 2016 or 2017. He
came to the University and asked
for volunteers to help him
because what he does is that he
captures parts of the of the
world where human beings have,
you know, taken this virus role
and have sort of caused negative
harm to the environment. And so
I went for the first time with
some colleagues from university
who were also studying the
liberal arts programme. And I
thought to myself, instead of
just doing something for the
sake of academia, when I went to
Agbogbloshie for the first time,
I was just shocked by how the
public sector of government had
sort of neglected it, you know,
in a way. And I thought that I
could sort of galvanise change
and even at least create some
meaningful awareness in trying
to shed light on the narrative
and maybe, maybe propagate
change in that direction. And
so, my team and I founded the
initiative, my co-founder,
Cynthia Nuhonja, she's Kenyan.
And she's in lockdown in
Nairobi, currently, probably
watching this and basically we
decided to sort of have sort of
conduct ethnocentric and
empirical research, because what
I find is that sometimes people
have an ivory tower syndrome
where they try and solve an
issue without any empathy, or
any cognitive understanding of
what's happening. And so we
immersed ourselves in amongst
the communities that are based
on the dump site, and the
individuals who are dealing with
wage owners there. And then we
started implementing this
programme, whereby we trained a
few individuals vocationally to
add value to the scraps of metal
and other debris to add value
instead of simply burning it to
sell. And, you know, we admit
and we admit as a team in all
humility, that this isn't about
having one sort of success
story. It's a very complex
issue, which is equally as
geopolitical as it is social
economic, and so we accepted
that taking steps each
iteration, each iteration of the
solution would be based on our
experience. And we're still
learning and trying to improve
that.
Brilliant, I mean, you
know, you paint a really great
picture of your experience
there, and why you got engaged
and involved. And I love seeing
some of your work. I think some
of the stuff that's been created
is amazing. But what are the
challenges to scaling this? I
think one of the things that we
talk about a lot at the Ellen
MacArthur Foundation is the
ability to scale and scale
circular economy initiatives.
What are your challenges to
scale?
I think you know what,
this is a very good question
because we asked ourselves this
every single time, you know, how
do you keep an approach that is
still human centred, and imbued
with empathy, but still
meaningfully scalable? On a, you
know, on an impactful level? And
I think for me, one thing I've
learned is partnership. I'm a
huge believer of the United
Nations Sustainable Development
Goals. And I think partnership
for the goals is essential in in
something like this. And so I
think finding meaningful ways to
sort of create jobs and the
employment sector through
scalably upcycling the waste in
a way that is equally
incentivized and responsible is
important. And, you know, we
partnered, we partnered in the
past with the World Bank climate
Innovation Centre in Ghana. And
and I think, for the most part,
the challenge with scaling is
what we're doing in a way that
is sustainable, but yet equally
incentivize. And, and I think
there are limitations to that
because of how complex the issue
is, you know?
Yeah. We've got a
question from Twitter. So before
I move to Josh, Joseph, we'd
like to ask you just one more
question and maybe Joseph, you
can, Josh, you can can lead on
this as well. It can be very
overwhelming to deal with these
complex issues and to work in a
place like Agbogbloshie. Do you
have any advice for like, if you
could go back and tell yourself
before you started this work
some things to help you, with
your feelings of being
overwhelmed and working in these
kinds of places, what would be
the advice that you give
yourself?
Well, I would say this,
sometimes as passionate
environmentalists who have
larger goals of what we want to
achieve, we forget that you
can't pour from an empty cup,
right? You need to have
soundness of mind and focus and
the and the energy to be able to
do the meaningful work you carry
out, right. And so I think the
first thing would be not to
enter, finding a solution with a
hero complex in thinking that
it's going to be you are going
to be the end all and be all of
how this issue is solved,
carrying the entire burden on
your shoulder, and which is why
I sort of addressed one of the
SDG goals, as partnership for
the goals, because I think
that's important. And that
meaningful, insightful, informed
collaboration is important in
understanding that as you pursue
this larger than life goal and
objective, which is idyllic, in
some cases, you sort of share
the burden and just take care of
your mental health in trying to
pursue these things. You know,
it can be overwhelming. It can
be, you know.
Thanks, Joseph. Josh, do
you have anything to add to
that?
Yeah, I agree with
Joseph. I mean, dump sites and
landfills are inherently smelly
and ugly to look at. But there's
a lot of silver linings that you
can find there as well. If you
if you really look at the
materials that are in a dump
site, I think of it as a
commodities market that no one
is really taking seriously, you
know that there's a lot of value
and a lot of wealth in the
waste, if you can find the right
way to process and valorize it.
Thanks for that. And I
think kind of building on that
one of the big differences
between the solid waste
management sector in Europe and
Africa is the role of the
informal sector. Could you talk
to us and describe to us a
little bit about the informal
sector and the role that it
plays in Africa?
Sure, so I mean, a huge
proportion, I would say the
largest recycling force in Sub
Saharan Africa is informal. And
I like calling them rather than
waste pickers, these micro
intrapreneurs, who, you know,
because the cost of living and
because the cost of entry and
the skills barriers are
inherently low in waste
recycling. It's a very
attractive opportunity for
countries that have high youth
unemployment rates, and low
costs of living. And for the
informal sector is the largest
moving force and even though
we're talking about individuals
who might only be able to move
between 25 and 100 kilogrammes
of product using a non motorised
trash cart, or a kind of a
modified tricycle when you're
talking about hundreds of
thousands of waste pickers
working in unison. I mean,
you're you're talking about a
massive scale that that
municipalities and private
companies wouldn't have control
over independently.
This there's been a
really great question that's
come in. And I think it links to
that informal sector and the
differences really well. And the
question is, if Europe sorts out
the circular economy, will that
radically impact the livelihoods
of the informal sector in
Africa? And what is that
relationship?
Well, I mean, like we
said before, a waste shouldn't
really be exported to Africa
from Europe. I mean, Europe has
a wealth and a tapestry of
better options from waste to
energy to subsidise recycling
systems. In Africa, and in many
of the countries that I've
worked in, waste management is
something that you can very
easily get out of people's front
yard and somebody where the
public don't, don't see it, you
know, it could be behind the
hill, past the airport. So
municipal governors are going to
have to think about things that
are more on people's front
doorstep like water and
sanitation, education and
healthcare and roads. And that's
why until the Sustainable
Development Goals came out,
waste management didn't even
feature kind of on the priority
list for donors and bilateral
banks like the World Bank in the
United Nations. It's really
right now that we're in the
Renaissance of this kind of
delayed attention on on a very
serious issue.
Definitely. And how, how
do we start fixing this kind of
system problem? How can we make
manufacturers and Corporation
that's understand the value
that's inherently in these
products that are ending up kind
of all around the world and in
places like Agbogbloshie?
Well, I think one way to
do it is to to inspire young
people and to kind of be an
advocate like I think Joseph's
work is very well presenting.
And another way to think of it,
I think a more sly and cunning
way is to just make it so
obvious within the capitalist
system to recycle waste. And
that's why if you look at things
like plastic, metal, paper and
metals, if you can separate them
and sort of segregate them very
often, they become these
valuable export commodities that
can take care of themselves just
with a bit of public subsidy or
with a bit of public support. So
instead of talking about an
environmental or a social or an
altruistic cause, I'm talking
about a no brainer, make money,
export commodity cause and
that's going to get a lot of
people on board and a side
effect an indirect impact of
that is going to be that it
scratches our back, that it
helps the environmental advocacy
that we're pushing.
It would be interesting
to hear a perspective from
Joseph on that as well because
actually you're using the waste
and you're creating value out of
the waste. So I wonder if you've
got a perspective that you'd
like to share on us share with
us on on Sarah's question around
how do we start fixing the
problem?
That's a good point. So
I had basically in upcycling,
sort of the electronic ways to
create value added products. My
approach to creating meaningful
awareness was that I had a debut
exhibition at the gallery 1957
in Ghana, whereby I worked with
artisans there to sort of
upcycle and create pieces
inspired by Marcel Duchamp's
readymade concept, and from the
money we made from the sale of,
of those pieces by the gallery
we reinvested it in efforts
towards vocational  trainin,
more  inhabitants. And I think
that's something that's crucial
that people also have to realise
as Joshua enumerated previously
that there is sort of I mean,
what I did was more creatively
inclined, but I think what
people are beginning to realise
is that it's a billion dollar
informal sector that is not
really being taken seriously or
being approached in a meaningful
way. And so I think people need
to change the attitude towards
what electronic waste is, and
sort of the opportunities that
lie because I don't think that I
think this simply discarded as
waste is, you know, there'a an
irony to view them because it's
just sort of like undiscovered
resources that just need to be
channelled towards the right
value chains.
Josh, I want to, if we go
back to you, I know that you're
doing a lot of development aid
work in in Africa, and there's a
lot of that happening on the
continent. Do you think the work
that's currently happening is
transformational for the waste
sector? If there's anything
missing, or part could be done
better?
Yeah, I definitely think
it's going in the right
direction. I mean, the the power
of donor actors in these fast
growing cities will always be
thought of in my mind as
development acupuncture. So can
you prove a business concept
that young enterpreneurs will
visualise and then run away
with. Can you kind of spark a
fire that that breeds
inspiration naturally, but kind
of one of the things that I've
seen other than technology
applications are cooperative
movements. You know, there's
actually a, an organisation
called the Global Alliance of
Waste Pickers, which is doing
some very impressive work. And
another item that people are
thinking of is can we apply fair
trade principles to the waste
recycling sector? So I mean,
every time a barrel of oil drops
in price, you know, you're
putting waste pickers out of
business. So you know, Fairtrade
did the same thing with you
know, with other commodities
like bananas. The Rainforest
Alliance has done it, and now
there are some companies like
Plastic Bank and Thread and
Plastics for Change and Hope for
Plastic. And they're all getting
on this idea just in the last
two years that, you know, can
you sell plastic and waste
commodities at a premium? And
use that premium to subsidise
decent livelihoods and fair
wages for local waste workers?
A question for Joseph,
I think, because we've talked
quite a lot about the informal
sector. And you, you mentioned
kind of the working conditions.
And I think we had a photo of
you standing on top of a load of
motherboards. And I just how do
we make sure that we address
these poor working conditions? I
mean, Joshua's talked about fair
trade and working conditions are
all part of that. But how do we
what can we do to support the
people who work at the dump site
as well as changing the system?
Joseph: You know, it's a very
good question because I think
people have wondered is it as
simple as formalising what is
now informal? And I think to
some extent, I think don't think
it's that's exactly the simple
solution. But it's very hard
because, you know, I think one
of the difficulties that my team
and I experienced and a funny
anecdote was, for example, we
donated a bunch of 10 standard
issue gas masks to 10 scrap
burners, who burn the copper
wires to salvage precious
metals. And in an experiment
after making this, you know,
small dent and this donation of
10 masks when we came back,
let's say about a week and a
half later, to start to check up
on the working conditions and
and the developments to see if
we're using the masks we gave
them, most of them really
weren't. And so it just shows
you that sort of there's sort of
like an education and a sort of,
you know, I've learned that in
working in places like
Agbogbloshie. In the informal
sector, trust is a currency you
know, people have to know people
at that level, you know, living
below the poverty line need to
trust you. And so sometimes that
can be a challenge in in certain
situations, and it's something
that needs to be addressed, but
it's definitely something worth
exploring. But I'm confident in
saying that I don't really have
the answers to you as of yet,
because because it is the
informal sector, people, you
need to understand that it is...
it has a life of its own. Its,
you know, it doesn't deal with
the same... you're dealing with
language barriers, access to new
education barriers and other
kind of... that make it
difficult to know to solve
issues simply or effectively all
at once.
Yeah, I mean, I think
maybe also, it would be useful
to ask Josh here a question
about,.... We've spoken a lot
about kind of the precious
metals parts that come out of
electronic waste. Joseph just
spoke about copper wire, but we
know in our laptops, that we use
every day and the opening of the
session, that it's not just
metals that are part of laptops
and electronic waste. There are
other components like plastics.
And I think the the photo that
we used of Joseph standing on
the motherboards was also, you
know, quite a nice illustration
of that. And could you maybe
tell us or talk to us a little
bit about the role of design and
how we design electronic
products? And how how that could
assist recycling in an informal
place like Agbogbloshie.
Sure, so, I mean, some
of the design elements, you
could certainly tie to an
extended producer responsibility
models, so kind of the
collection of batteries and the
collection of the more hazardous
kind of parts of electronic
waste. The manufacturers of
these products will inherently
know that they are going to be
thrown away it is part of their
economic model for people to
continue buying the kind of the
latest model of laptop and
phone. And they know also that
consumers in you know, all of
the developing and
industrialising world won't have
public subsidised battery
receptacles and, you know,
electronic waste disposal
opportunities locally. So, I
mean, I would, I would challenge
the private sector to say if
it's as easy to export your
waste into another person's
dumpsite to effectively you
know, broom your problem under
somebody else's rug, it should
also be easy for you to
repatriate these hazardous
materials and bring them back.
And when we're talking about the
non hazardous materials in, in
that computer like the like the
plastic and the metal. We we
don't need to reinvent the
wheel. I mean, just like Coca
Cola and Pepsi company in much
of the developing world, have a
return and a deposit scheme.
There's a very robust plastic
recycling market almost anywhere
in the world that's not
landlocked and has access to a
port. And so that is a commodity
that can be sold. And it
shouldn't be ending up in dump
sites.
You're right, it
shouldn't. I'm conscious that
we're heading towards the end of
our half hour slot. And I just,
I have a final question for
Joseph here. And I think Sarah
and I both have a question that
we'd like to ask him, which is,
if you had a magic wand you had
you could pick any solution off
the face of the planet, you had
as much money resource and
everything to be able to fix
some of the challenges that you
see in Ghana with the e-waste,
what would that solution look
like?
You put me on the spot
here. Really, actually, it would
be really actually, would it be
an ecos it would be an eco
incentivized way to recycle and
generate value add from the
negative externality of the
dumping, which would go on to
employ and empower the low
income inhabitants there with
some sort of structured
employment and skill sets that
don't really require a lot of
education, but on a more
vocational level. So it would be
the recycling of it would be the
sustainable and eco incentivize
recycling, whether that be a
plant or on a manufacturing
level of the sort of industrial
waste and the residue that does
end up at the dump site. You
know, and I think that that's
really important, because I
think empowerment is at the
centre of solving some of these
issues as far as the human
aspect of it is concerned, you
know, and I think it was Galileo
who said that, you know, you
can't teach a man anything you
can only teach him to find it
within himself. And I think that
has to do with what you know,
solving these issues are about:
human centred eco incentivised
solutions to recycle and
upcycle. waste.
Brilliant, loved that
answer. Thank you, Joseph, we
could probably spend the rest of
the day talking to you. But
unfortunately, our 30 minutes is
up. So I'd like to thank you so
much for spending the time with
us today to talk about this
challenge of e-waste in West
Africa and Agbogbloshie in
particular. I think what I'm
really taking away from the
session is just that it's a
really big challenge. We don't
have all of the answers yet.
They are things that we could
certainly be doing better on the
ground, in places like
Agbogbloshie to improve the
working conditions for people
that work there. But there's
also things that we need to be
doing kind of this side of the
world where we are today on the
Isle of Wight, to be solving
this challenge in Europe, how we
design products and creating
mechanisms that they're more
easily able to be reused,
repaired and recycled. So I've
really enjoyed today's session.
And thank you to everyone at
home who's enjoyed us as well. I
think Reniera has some last
bits.
Absolutely. And thank
you, Sarah, for co hosting with
me, it's been a fantastic chance
to talk to two really inspiring
people from our home continent.
We're far from home. But it's
amazing to be able to be part of
a session that takes us that
little bit closer. And there is
no show next week as we've come
to the end of series one of
Explore the Circular Economy
Show, you can catch up on
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And you can go onto our website
to find links to all the
information and all the case
studies and lots of other things
about the circular economy. So
hope to see you again soon. And
remember to stay subscribed so
you know that when we're when
we're back online.
