>>Dr.  Vantaggiato(AV)    OK, well, we are here, together with our friend Mario Nunez, 
in Ponce after an activity held by "Educa PR", in which we both participated in a forum, 
and we had a great time. 
And, I would like to take advantage of the fact that he is here 
in order to discuss this idea of "myths"
 that I am working on, but also other issues related to  education, 
technology and our profession as educators. 
Mario spoke a while ago about something very important, about change and the difficulty 
in change, and how to change...you know? 
Maybe taking small steps to change and acting on it. 
I would like you to expand on this concept. 
Also I want to ask the question, 
 why do we need to change,
 what for? 
Because we were discussing this before,
 like, what if I'm about to doubt myself,
 and I have to adapt to a new environment..  something... 
  
 >>Mario Nunez(MN):   Yes, well like i mentioned during our lecture, I've been interested, 
for quite some time now, in the concept of change and how we can stipulate it, 
what are the important factors that need to converge in order to create change,
 more within the context of education at a higher level and at a scholastic level. 
So, I've been reading a few interesting books, 
and one of the ones that I liked the most is one by... 
by the Heath brothers,  who also wrote "Made to Stick", which is a book that discusses 
how you can make ideas "stick"...and so now, they've made another book focused on the 
idea of change, and they call it the "switch" book. 
It explains how to achieve change, and how to change when changing is difficult. 
They work with this idea by using analogies, they speak of this analogy that has a rider 
and an elephant. 
The rider represents reason and the elephant represents consent, and how you can.... 
I mean you can give the rider all of this information and the rider can have a lot of 
knowledge, but then there's the issue of feelings and motivation. 
How do you motivate the elephant to move and do what it needs to do? 
 
 So, an act that has called my attention is the act of motivation. 
How do you make people change, and how do you make that change a permanent one? 
Because, that's one of the problems as well, temporary change 
is not the kind of change that we're looking for. 
We are looking for a permanent change in conduct. 
That permanent change is the one that takes the most work to accomplish. 
Here, i think that one of the most important elements is motivation. 
There are two types of motivation, there's intrinsic motivation and what we call 
extrinsic motivation. 
The educative system is oriented towards motivating people extrinsically, 
from the outside. 
Its a system where, basically, they give you strengths, and they control you and they 
condition you, and this is why the student does what he does. 
The student studies because he has an exam, he reads a book because it's been assigned, 
not because he wants to read. 
One of the interesting aspects which is explored in that book, and another book by Daniel 
Pink called "Drive". 
I liked it a lot because Daniel Pink works on the issue of motivation and, in reality, 
the dangers of extrinsic motivation, in terms of eliminating conducts that a person can 
be offering naturally. 
For example, it's been proven by experimental and empirical methods that if you take a 
person  that reads for pleasure, and then you begin
 controlling that behavior based on reinforcement. 
Lets say you say "Ok, if you read this book, I'm going to give you five dollars" and they 
say " Cool, yeah, I like that" 
and so they read the book and you give them the five dollars. 
The next time you give them ten dollars for reading a book, and so on. 
At some point you change everything and you say "Nope, i'm not going to give you any more 
money for reading" and so the person says "Well, I'm not going to read anymore!". 
So this is what is happening in our educational system, you start to reinforce this 
conduct, a conduct that is possible for the student to perform, but then you condition it 
towards some reinforcements, and so when you eliminate the reinforcement
 you lose the conduct as well. 
And so, the problem here is that when you try to control an intrinsic motivation with 
extrinsic reinforcements, and you eliminate that intrinsic motivation, 
you eliminate the conduct as well. 
I believe that we are doing some of that in education. 
Through the motivation.... 
and what Pink says is interesting, he says that for tasks that are automatic,
 extrinsic motivations are fine. 
You know, anything simple like habits, extrinsic motivation is fine for that. 
But for tasks that are more complex, like reading and studying, extrinsic motivation 
doesn't work because it is a totally temporary motivation. 
So then, the concept of change, we need to start seeing it from that perspective, about 
how we motivate someone that doesn't want to change, and from another perspective, 
who do we need to be motivating and how do we direct those efforts, 
because those efforts are limited... 
  
 >>woman: Excuse me sorry to interrupt you, would you watch this paper for me? 
I don't want it to get ruined in the bathroom.. 
thank you..) 
  
 >>MN: well..  that...  
that has called my attention a lot,
 in terms of change. 
  >>AV:   And, the change, sometimes when we talk about
 motivation and change, 
for example in our college students we want them to have motivation from within, 
that we shouldn't give it to them. 
I honestly don't remember when i was 20 or 18, what type of motivation I had. 
For example in a calculus class, I didn't feel a personal motivation per se, but I did 
understand that it was an indispensable condition so that i could pass to a higher grade. 
So, I suppose there are different levels of motivation.But I should say, we sometimes 
complain that our students are not motivated, what does that implicate? 
For example at a college level? 
  
 >>M.N.:   Yes, I believe that here we have to analyze the context of the situation. 
We have to see each case individually. 
For example, there are students that really aren't motivated to study, they aren't 
interested in college or studying, they are there to please others, like their 
parents...in that sense, it is very difficult to work with that type of student. 
And these are the students that a lot of times complete their bachelor's degree, 
but they do it without good intentions or very much effort. 
    
 >>Woman: thank you very much, 
 and thank you very much for sharing your knowledge with  us.
  
 >>MN:And that's a type of student that, well...  you know.. 
for starters, they shouldn't have gone to university, because they are there due to other 
forces and other external pressures, in order to please their parents. 
       
 >>AV:   And there are lots of them... 
  
 >>MN:    And I believe there's a good number of these students, 
and the problem is that it's also an issue of..... 
there's this man, Kevin Robinson, which speaks of "the element". 
And he refers to this element as that which makes you feel passionate and which you are 
good at, and you're good at it because you have the capacity to do so. 
And so, that's what he calls the element. 
When a student finds that, he is where he needs to be. 
The problem that i see in education is that some students can have the capacity and 
skills but they don't have the passion, or they have the passion but not the capacity. 
Like they say "Oh yeah I want to be....  and engineer...." 
but they don't have the knack for the math.. or whatever.."    
 >>AV:   So we help them to find that...  (the element) 
  
 >>MN:   I believe that part of the process of education is helping the student, at least at 
middle school, high school and university level, is to find out what they do well and 
what they are passionate about. 
I believe that a lot of students in the universities are lost and disoriented, because 
the way that they chose their career path has nothing to do..., well it's possible that 
is has to do with the attitudes they have, and such, but its not that they're passionate. 
And so, that concept of element also seems very important to me, in that students are 
able to do well in the university and that they can take advantage of the experience that 
college offers them. 
       
 >>AV:    And, the faculty, how do you see them? 
I see them as very passionate. 
In which ways do you think they have to change? 
  
 >>MN: I believe that, here, the important thing is, in which direction do we want the faculty to change?
I see that in reality in terms of my vision of the process, ideally, people would change 
to a pedagogic process that promotes communication with the students. 
If we were to imagine the ideal teacher, the ideal professor, I, perhaps,  don't even 
have to mention "Uses technology", because for me, that's not essential.   
You know, when i look at the basics, the most basic things that i'd look for I don't even  
need technology.I'm referring to technology like internet etc. 
because we know that a chalkboard is a type of technology. 
That issue of, like for example, having blogs.  
 Ok, is it essential for a professor to have a blog? 
I'd say "No, its not essential to have a blog". 
What is essential is that they look at what they are doing, that they reflect and 
evaluate on what they are doing. 
It is important that they ask themselves how effective they are as educators. 
You have to look at it from the perspective of principles. 
There is a principle that I've liked in terms of effective teaching is, they are these 
principles by Chickory. 
First principle, is communication, and you may ask how you can foster good communication 
between teachers and students, and he says 
"ok, you can do this through technology but  you can also do it other ways". 
As a teacher you can talk to the students face to face, and you can make comments. 
In this way you can learn all the names of your students and when you have to ask them a 
question you can call them by name. 
What is more transformative within the process of education than the student knowing that 
the teacher went through the effort of learning their name. 
You know, that he can call on them like "Oh, so-and-so" and they're surprised by this. 
And lets say later in the semester, or maybe even a year later you bump into them
 in the supermarket and you say
 "Oh, hello!  Juan!" 
Juan says " Oh! The professor remembers my name, 
this means I was important to the process (of education). "
We can also ask ourselves how technology can assist us
 in bettering communication with our students. 
Then we have all the social networking platforms available, 
that I can use in order to facilitate that communication. 
But its the strategy, the tool, we cannot loose sight of 
these basic principles, like communication. 
Chickory mentions his second principle, which is communication between the students. 
  Because we can have good communication between teachers and students, 
but what's going on there? 
The students are not communicating amongst themselves. 
So, how do you achieve communication between the students? 
(You do it with) collaborative learning, forming groups, group projects, exercises in the 
classroom which promote the students getting to know each other, through forums. 
They ask questions through forums and answer one another's doubts, and they interact. 
And so, the students begin to communicate in class. 
I believe this can be done in person, as well, maybe even more easily than with online 
issues, with the difficulties that exist within it. 
Then the third principle, which is feedback,
 and feedback in its due time and done effectively. 
For example we have this professor and he gives immediate feedback, 
not in a month, but right at the moment.      
 >>AV:   And these are principles that weren't invented yesterday...    
 >>MN:    And they're founded in research done about fifty years ago...    
 >>AV:   And us, as faculty.... 
do you think we do the work of reflecting about our courses, 
or are we sometimes kind of like automatons...    
 >>MN:    No, I think not. 
At least in my department, we don't reflect much about the ways in which we teach. 
And we should, we should have reflection groups where we share,  
where we share what we do. 
We started to do that when i was Associate Dean of "AVALUO", 
we worked from the point of view of reflection. 
We reflect on how we can promote learning within the students, 
what we're doing wrong...and that helped to form some groups. 
But, again, one of the greatest problems
 we have with all of this is an issue of follow up. 
We see this in the projects that people present, for example here, we have projects made 
by professors and they use it one semester and then either they move the professor away 
or they don't have the funds to continue it. 
And so, I believe the issue of follow up, there are many projects
 which could have had a great impact, die. 
When I look at the situation, for example with a project I had, we maintained it for five 
years, and as soon as we let it go "poof" it disappears because the administration, be it 
because they can't find the ideal person or because maybe, essentially, it works in their 
favor to have it disappear.Because, they don't see it, they don't see it as 
fundamental,they don't see it as an essential factor in achieving what they want. 
And so, these technology projects, have that problem, of how we can industrialize them.    
 Because if we choose the contrary, it depends upon the person who is there,
 and if we depend on the person that is there
when Mario Nunez isn't there or when Antonio isn't there..  what happens? 
  
 >>AV:    Then you understand for example, the focus that these agencies,
 like Asessment and Avaluo, have can help us to reflect about whatever we need to? 
  
 >>MN:   I think that it plays an important role, 
but I also have some reserves regarding the issues of Avaluo, and...because.. 
the issue lies within how its implemented, we don't want it to be merely a patch that you 
put upon the courses, and on the other hand you don't want it to be a way to supervise 
the professor, because the institution can take this Avaluo project as a way to harass 
and follow the professor. 
In that sense i don't think it makes it a solution. 
On the other hand, we want the student to understand that the good thing about Avaluo is 
that it cannot be linked to any level of 
execution by the student, it should not be linked to grades. 
In the moment in which Avaluo becomes another way of traditional measurement of a 
student's performance, it ceases to be functional. 
But, I think so, because it makes the professor focus, it makes them more conscious of  
what they are doing in the classroom, 
which a lot of times we notice that they are unconscious. 
Because you've been doing it for twenty years, 
you've been teaching for  twenty-five years, it becomes a habit. 
Then, the problem lies in how, how do you..... 
for example, I've always had trouble remembering 
my student's names, which for me is very important,
 but you know if you have 90-100 students,
 how am I going to learn the names of those students? You know...?
usually if they take class with me more than once, 
then I can make the connection and I remember it. 
But at the beginning, the first weeks, it can be very difficult, especially if the 
student doesn't stand out in some way, 
if they don't distinguish themselves from others with something they do. 
It becomes a task that is very difficult to manage, and another issue that i feel is how 
many lectures I give, and I'm trying to do less and less each time,
 and to allow the rest.... 
I feel that this is something very positive about the internet, you can post anything, 
such as conferences and any content that you want to share, you can record it! 
Then you can use the classroom for discussion and debates. 
Right now I'm teaching a course on the psychology of the internet, and i'm working it 
from the point of view of panels and debates, you know, where each week theres a panel 
related to a specific important issue related to internet psychology, 
such as multitasking. 
The students have some reading material, they work them, they read. 
Then, for the panels we have a group in favor of multitasking and a panel against it, 
and they have to defend them.    
 >>AV:    Are the students themselves the ones that form the panels? 
Or do you have guest speakers?    
 >>NM:   The students for the panels, because I want them to have that experience of debating, 
and even if their personal views go against what they are debating for, it is important  
for them to learn how to debate another point of view. 
For example, with the issue of internet addiction, a concept that is utilized often, but 
there are still people who think it shouldn't be used because there is no such thing as 
internet addiction, but on the contrary we have others who 
are in favor and do believe it exists...  and so we form a panel about that. 
We've already had some really interesting discussions, because then other students 
participate, and i've seen more of a dynamic interaction in that way, than if I was the 
center (of the discussion), and still I add to the conversation and stimulate it, and in 
a sense I continue to be the center. 
The thing with the panel is that it takes me out of the center of the discussion and it 
allows the students to put their peers in that position. 
So what I've done is, while that process is occurring,
 the students are Tweeting about the panel... 
  
 >>AV: So the panel is live and in person but they're Tweeting during the class? 
  
 >>MN:    ...and we project what they're Tweeting about during the class, the back channel, and we 
also have a hashntag, and so we can collect all of those messages. 
And so, as the students add their opinions... 
because a lot of the students have their laptops or iPhones, they can participate in and 
see the debate unfolding.  It's been really... 
I've enjoyed a lot the manner in which these classes have been developed, 
and the good thing is that you can see the process of thought within 
 the student's mind and how they defend certain ideas. 
We can see that some have 
better ideas than others 
but they are all part of the discussion. 
Sometimes you find that people are too complacent and agreeable with everything they say. 
There isn't someone saying
 "I'm not agreeing with that 
and I differ because of so and so". 
I'd like to see more, more in the discussions on Twitter and at an online level, i think 
it's very important to see people who disagree with what you think. 
    
 >>AV:    Which is what occurs in reality. 
    
 >>MN:   That is what occurs in reality, and I want to give them that idea,
 that taste, of the fact that things aren't black and white,
 with a variety of issues concerning the internet. 
For example, with the multitasking, we have students who are in favor of it and others 
that aren't, and you know, the issue isn't that simple. 
Because you need to look at what multitasking is, and you define it, then we can discuss 
what we think about it, you can't talk about multitasking 
without first defining what that is. 
Then you can conclude that maybe for some tasks, 
multitasking is good but for others it simply doesn't work well, and it can confuse you. 
And so, when they jump into the research, and particularly the works done by Clifford 
Nass, who has done some empirical, experimental research on multitasking... 
what Nass ends up saying is that people nowadays  have a hard time filtering what is 
important from the trivial, and the ability to do so is fundamental to any person or 
student, because on the contrary they would tend to get confused. 
So, this idea, that things can be grey and not black and white, is acquired by the 
students through these types of debates. 
We try to close the debate by trying to synthesize both points of view 
  
 >>AV:   And they can also see that the development of a theory is created based on multiple 
points of view, like for example with the theories about the creation of the universe.      
 >>MN:   Sometimes i think about these massive online courses and the discussions that Siemens  
and Stephen Downs have against David Wiley. 
and so I believe that they don't accept criticism. 
For example Siemens and Downs, they get very defensive whenever they receive criticism. 
And I think to myself, how is it possible that these men, who are incredibly intelligent  
and have contributed to their fields, can't deal with the fact that someone can come 
along and question their opinions...      
 >>AV:   ...I saw a debate.... 
  
 >>MN:   ...And that makes me think that they have to work a lot on being more open to criticism 
and reevaluate what they are doing, which is not necessarily the right thing...     
 >>AV:   ...I assisted this debate, about a presentation, which to this day I still haven't seen, 
a presentation with Jim Groom to which George Siemens responds saying no, and trying to 
define what a MOOC was and what it wasn't..and so I didn't really see it 
so I can't talk about it.. 
but it was interesting to see their dynamic.      
 >>MN:   I saw that, Jim Groom makes a criticism about the MOOC, and Siemens quickly leaps 
defensive. 
I'm still waiting to see an article by Jim that will clarify his position. 
It would be very interesting, I have my problems and my reservations regarding MOOCs, I 
think they have their strengths but I don't think it's as good as it seems to be. 
For example, I could not participate...
I find it too... too.. 
wide, and I don't know if its a question of structure, 
I find to to wild to be able to focus. 
I believe that part of the process of learning is, part of what a course it is just that,   
maybe not having a rigid structure but having a frame of reference from which you can 
move about and feel... 
and I understand that uncertainty is important and I understand that confusion is 
important, but to a certain degree. 
Why? 
Because confusion and uncertainty ends up making the person leave. 
What is the level of uncertainty, what is the threshold of confusion that you are willing 
to expose. 
 In other words, this level of uncertainty, you could maybe control it, in the same way 
that you can control an electric shock. 
You know? 
"200 degrees of uncertainty!" "400 degrees of uncertainty!". 
And you say, what's enough? 
I believe that some of these courses end up turning into a sort of electric shock.      
 >>AV:   Yeah, I consider it more experimental in action with a lot of people. 
I find their propositions quite interesting, Stephens and Downs and people that make 
courses with more than 100,000 people. 
This is something very serious, you ask yourself what type of relationship can you form 
there? 
 I mean, are the courses very very conservative? 
I don't know...       
 >>MN:    And so my question is, up to what degree does this not 
 exemplify the factory model? 
That scares me, that in reality.. 
and I'm sure that these people are very conscious of that. 
But the impression one gets... 
and I mean even the name: "Massive Online...", the whole "massive" thing, I don't like 
that title. 
Because it has to do with just that, mass, a whole bunch of people. 
And then I think.. 
I mean my question is, how much of this goes against an individualized process?, and so 
yes, they have this whole issue, that yes it ends up becoming much more individualized 
than the 30 student system in the classroom. 
But really, I don't know.      
 >>AV:   There's a quote that I've had stuck in my brain for a while now, and it says:  
 "We experiment through technology with a class of 20, 10, 30, 40 students,
 and then this helps us understand how it would work with maybe 1000 students". 
I think this kind of thing can open up new possibilities, 
 in order to explore in which way.. 
and what we can do. 
But there should also be a whole, in a sense that's more positive. 
Either way I find your approach interesting. 
And So, you, then returning the case of...,teaching etc. 
You, that have been one of the first in Puerto Rico to change, because you, as a 
psychologist, don't have the training in Information Technology, but you observe what is 
going on, and through that wonderful example of epiphany,
 explain how you got into technology. 
How, and now that you've had a long time, 
what would you say, what do you observe in your students?      
 >>MN:   Well, I don't know that if at a certain point that occurs as part of (...) and for a 
while I had overvalued the role of technology in these processes, and I'm at the moment a 
bit more critical of the same thing i've been doing throughout these years, observing it 
from afar and valuing more  the issue of the face to face meeting in the classroom. 
I'm taking more time and valuing more what happens in the classroom. 
I don't know if maybe it's a sense of nostalgia or 
 or melancholy...I don't know. 
And that doesn't mean that I at these moments... 
but again, in a moment where technology is the center, now essentially, it's what it 
should have always been, a medium which helps me to be effective, its very helpful, but 
if its not there we do it anyways (educate) the way its been done since before these technologies existed. 
Again, I find that my efforts has more to do with a change in attitude from my students,  
with stimulating them to see the marvels of all the knowledge that is there. 
And so these issues concerning technology have helped us to create other things, things 
that have nothing to do with technology. 
I think i'm in a good moment, in a position where its more similar to the issue with   
Sherry Turkle in "Alone Together" i'm seeing a dark side to technology, 
aside from the luminous side.   
 I'm trying to be more cautious with what I do with technology and its implications.  
For example, I don't like courses that are completely online. 
I won't' do it again. 
I don't know, again, if it's due to some sort of nostalgia. 
It doesn't make sense to me. 
It doesn't make sense because students that are in school, ARE in school.  
My question is, if they are in school, why am i going to offer them a course that is 
completely online? 
For example, the other day I ran into a student, who was taking that online course. 
And she says "hello, I am in your online course" and she went to shake my hand, and she's  
like "Oh, I'm so and so " and then you're like "oh, so and so...". 
And you know, there's pictures and videos, but (...) its not the same.   
I feel like i get lost, and I don't want to get lost.  
And listening to the students in person, I mean I'll get to listen to that student 
through the forums, but being able to connect,
 give instant feedback and to listen to the students... 
It's something else, it really is another dimension. 
I do believe in hybrid courses, and I am giving a hybrid course. 
As a matter of fact, i'm  actually forgetting about 
the hybrid part because I don't see them. 
I'm not sure where this change in attitude about evaluation comes from...   
I gave my first online course in 2003. 
 We made a proposal and we received a grant of $2,000. 
(...  rain...)
 in order to develop an online course. I think that (...)    
 >>AV:    You couldn't find a way to give some added value to it that you might not have been able  
to have in an in person course? 
    
 >>MN:   On the other hand, we have different types of cases, (in......) we had adults who 
couldn't take exams in person, because of work, etc. 
 and this system helped them do that. 
And so we saw how some students were able to make use of this
 as a space in which they could be educated. 
For example, the tools allowed them to develop and I could see the whole process through  
which they experimented, with the confusion and then understanding.  
Its a wonderful process. 
We would have a video conference once a week  
 in which they could bring up doubts and comments.  
But in that case, i think it's interesting because despite the fact that I couldn't see  
them in person, we still kind of me in person with the video conferences.  
Either way, with this course specifically, I wouldn't suggest meeting in person, because 
the course was about that exactly, about distance online learning. 
And the way that they would learn that would be online. 
So that also, helps... 
        >>AV:   So, right now, you are in a process of reflection and criticism towards the use of this 
technology...and I believe that it should be like that, being cautious...and how has this 
changed you? 
For example, you keep publishing, but all of this new technology, Web 2.0 etc., affects 
the way in which you are able to communicate with the rest of the world...    
 >>MN:   Yes, but less frequently... 
If you go to my blog, I'm publishing , but it's been a bit over a month, since I did. 
Twitter is taking over a bit from the blog,  
and it's a bit problematic because honestly it's making me more lazy.  
Its taken from my time of sitting down and writing something more extensive... 
In that sense I can understand how these technologies begin to transform us...     
 >>AV:   That is the point that I was getting to, I wanted to ask you: After all, we live with  
technology in a symbiosis, within an ecology, and its normal for it to change us; If we 
make the technology it is normal for it to change us, both positively and negatively, 
there is always this give and take. 
In this sense I cannot do much more than just read about what has happened in the past,  
for example with the book, which has been a wonderful advance in technology, we cannot 
live without books! 
You know? 
Because there is the idea that the book is....(the most prestigious of technologies) 
which I don't believe,  and so there's always this battle or should I say evolution... 
it's like with those that want to protect language, they're afraid of change...    
 >>MN:   Yes, you know, I believe that there's a point to that...  
I mean, there are moments where I ask myself, 
when was the last  time I read an entire book? 
And I think  "gee!  it's been a while".   
 And its because my way of reading has changed, and I don't know if it has changed as a 
consequence of the internet and these tools...but it has changed, to the degree that I   
read a book by chapters, I skip chapters...and sometimes I get lost, that's when I say:  
"darn, thats not right!"  
  I know that I shouldn't do that, and I don't like doing it, but at the same time I ask 
myself "Is it necessary to read an entire book?"  "Do we have to do it?" I think its 
quite probable that very few books merit reading the entire thing, 
I mean unless it's a novel...you know? 
Most books I read, I start out scanning, and finding chapters and reading little by  
little, find what you like, skip to something else... 
maybe you could say it isn't  profound way of reading, but I mean I do read some chapters 
profoundly,  but in reality, the way that I approach it has changed. 
And that's why lately I started purchasing more printed books. 
I spend a lot of time reading on monitors, I have no problem with that... 
but all of a sudden, I found I was reading everything on a monitor, and reading on a 
monitor is different, it's always moving, and you have the possibility of constant 
interruptions and distractions if you are online, because you are reading, you are 
receiving tweets and you're receiving e-mails, you're multitasking. 
 And I've seen that those same tasks do not help me with giving follow up to  what I'm  
reading, in that sense I've tried to complement it, to have time and space for the  
computer and space for reading printed books. 
I've found that I can read more and without any interruptions.   
 For example, I purchased printed copies of  "Alone Together" and "Cognitive Surplus" and 
I was able to read Turkle's book almost completely and I read most of Shirkey's.  
In my my case, the criticism Shirkey makes, its kind of extremist and he does it on  
purpose. 
He does it on purpose because if he didn't do it that way, he wouldn't be able to  get 
his point across in the way that he wants, it's a type of strategy. 
It's the same thing that this british guy does, he has a new book out... 
its called something like  "digital...  digital..  hypnosis?"...He's a guy thats very...  
he thinks that this whole Web 2.0 thing, he says that what it does is give all the 
ignorant people the baton in terms of information access, and so they become leaders. 
But I think that his opinion is a bit...it's a bit too radical.   
 But I think that positioning myself in a... 
I read an article about techno-optimists and techno-pessimists and about techno-realists.  
I think that in these moments I have gone from being  
a techno-optimist to a techno-realist. 
Its seems in these moments it's better to be realistic about what is happening right now 
and the impact of technology in our way of living and interacting, I think that we have  
to keep our eyes wide open and watch out for the impact that these technologies might  
have in our interpersonal relationships. 
How much time, for example, do we have this thing (mobile phone) strapped to us? 
No? 
And it turns into something that interrupts our communication and our family time.  
I'm very interested in what might be going on with many families nowadays. 
People are communicating, people are talking but like Thurston mentions in his thesis, 
these technologies are uniting those who are far apart 
but distancing those who are physically close. 
That is what I've seen on a couple of occasions, it distances us from those closest to 
us, but it also unites us to those far away, 
which is the awesome thing about these technologies. 
But, how do we avoid.....    
 >>AV:   What do you mean by distancing us from those who are closest to us? 
I mean in a near past we all, the whole family, would sit, after dinner, in front of the  TV. 
Yes, it was a form of sharing time together, but nobody would talk... 
I mean you would say one or two things... 
       
 >>MN:   I think that even with that example it's still a shared activity, it's like going to the 
movies, in the sense that, when you are watching TV with others, sometimes you make 
comments, people laugh together, it's a collective experience. 
It's an activity where the family shares together, even if the amount of dialogue is  
lesser, people laugh , they make questions,
 some dialogue occurs during the commercials we talk during the commercials! 
And, there's the sensation that we are doing something together. 
In relation to other things such as the internet, 
the iphone and the computers- it's more individualized. 
Thats where I see the difference between the TV and these other technologies. 
       
 >>AV:   So what do you think about these studies that  show that young internet users are more 
active socially and that they have more profound social relationships?  
    
 >>MN:   I completely agree that these technologies can help adolescents to have more friendships 
to be more connected with those that aren't in the home. 
The issue lies within whether that constant connection that these kids have with their 
friends on Facebook ends up distancing them from relationships with their parents, from 
their siblings, which are there in the same house. 
That is something that may be happening without us even noticing. 
We see families which send each other text messages even if they're in the same house. 
  When you start doing things like that, you may say "Ok, that's cool" because there is 
still communication going on, but something is changing. 
 Instead of going to that person, looking them in the eyes and saying
 "listen.. dad..." even if its to ask you for money "Dad, i need money" and then they leave you a 
text message saying "Daddy I need ten dollars" and you send one back saying
 " I left them on the countertop" and then he goes out and spends the money. 
That's why I've thought that these strategies recommend digital sabbaticals, 
disconnecting the modem on a friday night, 
being with your family with everything disconnected. 
I think that it's going to be more and more 
necessary in the future if we don't make the adjustments. 
Its going to be necessary to do that in order to have some sort of communication within 
the family, sharing in a way in which internet, technology and text messaging are absent 
so that you can have some time with them without any type of interruption. 
I think that it's a good idea, because on the other hand disconnecting completely would  
not be beneficial.      
 >>AV:   OK, well summing things up, how does that student... 
that finds themselves in a perpetual conversation, and all of a sudden they enter a 
classroom or academic department and they are confronted with the class. 
What happens there? 
When they see a professor talking and maybe 
 the professor accepts the fact that they have 
the phone on or maybe they don't accept it, i'm experimenting with a class now,
 by letting them do what they want with the phones... 
    
 >>MN:   Well, I've been quite flexible with the cell phone and technology issue, 
and I'm starting to reevaluate. 
For example with my Psychology of the Internet course, 
I have students that  through their laptops find extra information 
about what we're talking about in the class, and they share, and that's fabulous. 
However, I have students that are not using it for class related things, 
and you know that they're somewhere else. 
Then the issue of what to do comes up, 
do you eliminate the possibility of the student having those resources? 
Do you put some stricter rules? 
Do you limit where they can go in the internet? 
Do you schedule their time, and set some time aside for that, 
saying 
"You have 5 minutes for Facebook or Twitter" 
 and then we go back to the class material? 
And so, its a dilemma, I'm not so sure what the best course of action is, 
because it limits the very tools that can help the students in a variety of ways.  
A laptop in a classroom can be a very powerful tool. 
You can be confronted with a variety of situations in the university
 for which a laptop would be useful. 
    
 >>AV:   I've noticed...  I was very fortunate enough to 
participate in a couple of conferences, including today's, 
and everyone is doing their own thing, including the adults, professors, etc. everyone is doing their own thing and not.... 
obviously they are listening and interacting but we can notice that it's a phenomenon  
that's not exclusive of adolescents.       
 >>MN: I've tried a few experiments in class. 
When the students are debating to look up information 
and Tweet about the debate. 
But I've noticed that I lose track of what's going on while i'm writing and I can't   
answer questions in the way that I would like to. 
And so I've decided to be fully present during class 
and not be on twitter or anything else. 
I think there's a moment in which one becomes disconnected from what is happening in 
order to write on the computer or search for something...its a disconnection and 
reconnection becomes difficult. 
So I've noticed that during class I need to be doing one thing, which is listening and  
answering my students doubts, and asking them important questions. 
If you start working on the iPhone or checking your email or looking up some information 
about something related *poof* I get lost. 
In that sense I see that it might just be  me and the way that I listen in a classroom. 
Because I'm there 100%, in the other way 
I'd be there only about 75% and the rest is noise. 
I don't feel comfortable in that sense, tweeting while .... 
The same thing happens to me during the conferences, because I get lost. 
On the other hand when I'm at home, when im online, I can do it, it's much easier for me 
     >>AV: For me, when I'm in a conference I love twitter because it provide a structure for 
taking notes and for maybe going beyond the usual notes I would take on paper. 
The only downside for me is that it takes a lot of energy to make it right that one or 
two conferences and I'm exhausted.    
>>MN:  Its a lot of effort, yes, a lot of effort and one gets tired.    
 >>AV: It's also a great record for cataloguing your way of thinking and doing. 
Its in some way similar to the little notebook of yesteryears in which you would keep 
your thoughts for future viewing. 
Twitter has something, and the blog has something like that that I love. 
 
 >>AV: Well, I think that we could talk for two more hours
 but it's late and we're tired so....thanks for everything. 
