CHARLES VOGL: So let me
talk a little bit about why
I talk about community.
When I was in my 20s, I
remember on a particular Sunday
I joined my cousin, Erin, to her
large, hip, urban church in Los
Angeles.
And I joined her that day
because I was, at that time,
looking for a
spiritual community.
And I wondered if I
would belong there.
And I remembered
when we got there,
the service began with
the downbeat from the band
at the front of the room.
And as soon as that happened,
everyone in that auditorium--
well over 1,000
people-- stood up,
raised their hands
over their heads,
and started swaying
with the music.
I also remember about
halfway through that service,
I was tired of pretending that
that was comfortable for me.
And there was nothing wrong
with what they were doing.
I was just looking for something
far more contemplative.
And so about halfway
through, I quietly sat down.
I remember when I sat
down alone, the looks
and the frowns that were
directed at me-- while I
sat there by myself.
And I felt pretty clearly
that I didn't belong there.
I'm here talking about
community today--
and I've obviously
written a book about it.
But what I want you to know
before we go any further
is the deep truth
about why I'm here
is I felt like an outsider
for a very long time.
And when I mean outsider,
I mean like cry alone
at night kind of
outsider and wonder
if I'd ever have
the kind of friends
that I actually wanted
kind of outsider.
And quite frankly, I
wondered whether I'd ever
find the place where
I felt confident
that I belonged there.
And I spent years looking for
where I thought I would belong.
In fact, in my 20s,
I went and served
in the US Peace Corps
in northern Zambia
on the Zaire border.
And I remember when I
left for the Peace Corps,
I was so excited to
meet the people that
were as brave and as
adventurous as I wanted to be.
When I got to the village,
I was really lonely.
And maybe that
shouldn't be a surprise
because I was far away.
I was in a place with a totally
different culture, a totally
different food,
and quite frankly,
people who just had no
familiarity with someone
like me.
When I say I was
lonely, I mean like cry
alone at night kind of lonely.
And as much of the
villagers welcomed me
for a good amount of time there,
I thought I didn't belong.
But they certainly
did welcome me
and it was a life
changing experience.
But when I was in
the Peace Corps,
one of things I did
expect was to have
a certain amount of
community and connection
with other volunteers.
And that was certainly
true at some level.
But I also remember
that we would
sit at campfires on occasions
and often, there were
big stacks of beer beside us.
And behind me, there seemed
to be a never ending game
of beer cricket going on.
And I remember one night, a
volunteer I'll called Jake,
turned to me and
he said, Charles,
I don't trust people
who don't get drunk.
And because I didn't drink,
well, he didn't trust me.
And because of
conversations like that
in evenings like
that, at some level,
I was pretty confident
that I didn't really
belong among those volunteers.
In my 30s, I moved
to New York City.
And by this point, I'd
spent years looking
for exactly where I belong.
And it was a New York City
that a very famous pastor who
works in the Upper East Side
shared with me the wisdom by CS
Lewis called "The Inner Ring".
And that's when I
discovered I was looking
for totally the wrong thing.
And what Lewis wrote about
was that we all want to find,
what he called an inner
ring to belong to.
And these inner rings
are exclusive groups
of people who are
cooler than the groups
that we are already a part of.
And there's nothing wrong
with these inner rings.
The problem comes with
our desire or our longing
to be inside them.
In fact, this longing
causes really good people
to do really bad
things and is the cause
of a lot of unhappiness.
We also discover when we try
to enter these inner rings
that whenever we get
inside of a ring,
we always discover there's
another inner ring.
And this pattern continues
forever, unless we break it.
This pattern of always wanting
to be in the next inner ring
and there is never
an end of them
he called the trap
of the inner ring
and he did give us
a way to break it.
And his solution was find
something you like to do,
do it often, invite
anybody who wants to do it
with you to come do it.
And he says that if we do that,
the people who show up and do
that thing with us will
create a very specific kind
of relationship with us that
allows us to break the trap.
And that relationship
is called friendship.
And I was exposed to this.
It was deeply inspiring
because I thought, well,
even if I couldn't find exactly
where I was supposed to belong,
maybe I can create it.
The next year I went to
graduate school at Yale
to study religion,
philosophy, ethics,
and a bunch of other stuff.
And when I got to
Yale, one of the things
that surprised me was it turns
out the history of the school
is so large and grand that many
students-- certainly not just
me-- often are convinced that
we'll never be good enough
to actually belong there.
Many of us walk around concerned
that at any given moment
someone's going to approach
us, tap us on the shoulder
and explain, there's
been a terrible mistake,
expose us for the fraud
we already knew we were,
and then tell us that
we need to leave.
And it turns out that many
of us are walking around
with this confidence
that we were going to be
asked to leave any moment.
Well keeping Lewis's wisdom
in mind, my now wife Socheata
and I started a dinner series
in our home every Friday night.
We would make a large
dinner and anybody
who wanted to join us
for dinner could do so.
And I promise you
that first semester I
was convinced many times
this was a terrible idea.
There are times when
people said they would come
and they would cancel.
There were times when
I'd make a huge meal
and three people on the
entire campus would show up.
And there were all
the times where
I had turn down all the
invitations on every Friday
night and everything on campus.
Then of course, all the
stuff going on in New York.
But that first year
something surprising happened
and the dinners
became very popular
and they became very,
very successful.
In fact, they became so
successful after two years
that my wife and I hosted
over 500 people in our home
and we couldn't keep
up with the exhaustion.
So we had to create a whole
team to run the dinners that
would plans the menu, that
would cook the meals, and quite
frankly, keep up with this
demand and we got to a place
where Arjan would go ahead and
organize the dinner leaders who
then organize the
volunteers that
would then make the dinners.
And then Sam would go on
and manage the sponsors
and then the wait lists we
were creating every week.
And I'll tell you, over those
dinners, cooking those meals,
cleaning my kitchen, I formed
some of the most important
friendships in my entire life.
In fact, those friends
have hiked with me
across the mountains of Peru,
they've eaten across Vietnam
with me, and a number
of them stood with me
at my wedding on
a Pacific island
and in the middle of the ocean.
We weren't was making
dinners together,
we were creating
powerful friendships.
These friendships
were so powerful
that now they let
me call them when
I'm having my worst days so I
no longer have to cry alone.
And sometimes, those
friends now call me and they
cry in my living room.
My sixth year at
Yale, my friend Melo
asked me to lunch
at the Yale commons.
And the two of us
sat in a long table
the north side of
the dining hall
underneath that vaulted
ceiling and Melo
told me something over that
lunch that was a real surprise.
He told me that his
first year at Yale
had been his hardest
year of his life.
In fact, he had moved from the
Philippines and the workload,
the culture, and the New
England weather were hard enough
to be challenging.
But when he got
here, they discovered
that his medical doctor wife,
Jazz, couldn't work legally
in Connecticut.
And so she had to live far away
so they could make ends meet.
And then while he was on
campus for that first semester,
his mother's fight
with cancer worsened.
And Melo couldn't afford a last
minute trip to the Philippines.
And so when his mother
died, he couldn't visit her,
he couldn't say goodbye, and
he couldn't say, I love you,
one last time.
And so what he actually
did was like me--
he cried alone at night.
He told me that when he got back
to the Philippines that summer,
his attitude was he
was sure he would never
return to New Haven.
It didn't matter that he had
a full scholarship to the best
school in his
field in the world.
He told me he knew
it was just too much.
And then he told me, I
remembered your invitations.
I remembered dinners
at your house.
I started creating
community to serve me,
but now I've realized I'm
doing it to help others.
It changed our lives and I
know how deeply important
it is that we all belong.
So that's actually why
I teach about community
and that's actually
why I'm here today.
Because it's very rare that
a friend comes to me and says
my whole life has changed
because you invited me.
And so it's fun and
sometimes difficult
to tell that to a crowd.
Before I move
forward, I just want
make sure we're on the
same page and what I mean
about recognizing community.
So let's just get that
definition covered.
We could talk about groups.
Nothing wrong with groups.
We're all part of
lots of groups.
I consider a group of people
who have gathered together
and that could be
for a good reason.
A tribe might be
a group then that
shares a value or an interest.
We're all part of that.
When I talk about community,
what I'm talking about
are people who share a mutual
concern for one another.
And it is that mutual concern
that makes us a community.
So when we talk about leadership
in community or building
a community, we're
talking about how do we
build that mutual concern.
There are lot of things
we could talk about when
we talk about communities.
We can talk identity and values
and insider understanding.
Those are all perfectly
good things to talk about.
I'm not going to put it on the
front half of this presentation
today.
We can talk about it later
if you have other questions.
Let's talk of the
problem of community.
Why do we even have to
talk about it at all.
Why isn't it just
everywhere all the time--
we're all good at it.
I think one of the
reasons is that we're
one of the most
loneliest generations
in American history from what I
can tell the research shows us.
Just a few statistics to
help you understand that.
Personal networks seem to
have decreased about one third
in the last two generations.
And we're now at a place
in American history
where more Americans say
they don't have someone
to talk to about important
subjects than people who do.
And to give you a sense of
what that change looks like,
the number of people who
don't have that confidant
has tripled in just
the last generation.
So we're in a time
where there may
be more longing to be
connected than ever before.
So how do we build
and strengthen.
Well, one of the
things that's going on
is I find that when I talk
about building community,
often, for people who are
leaders in building community,
they're scared to
death of structure.
So I have a picture here
of a big bridge that has
a lot of structure holding up.
And the attitude seems
to be that [INAUDIBLE]
if we add structure,
we're just being evil.
And I understand where
that's coming from.
We've all seen organizations
and communities
that have so much
structure it's suffocating.
But I just want to
share that's just
totally wrongheaded thinking.
In fact, part of
my work is looking
at 3,000 years of
spiritual tradition
where people have used
principles and structures
to come together for
literally millennia, often
through existential
threatening times.
And they've done this so
successfully that we can go out
right now and we can meet the
descendants of those traditions
that are still together.
So there are principles,
ideas, and structures
that we can borrow
from these millennia
and use them wherever we want
to build community ourselves.
This is a certain point
that often gets overlooked.
The communities that I talk
about are only serving.
If there is a community there
that is trying to use people
or is just forcing me
to be a part of it,
that is not what
I'm speaking to.
I'm assuming that if someone
is joining the communities
that you're building that
they're growing in some way
and you want to help them grow.
And if not, then this
probably doesn't apply.
All right.
I'm going to introduce there's
three ideas from the book
briefly and we can talk about as
much of this later as you want.
The first idea is that
strong communities
have a clear boundary or they
at least have a boundary.
Whenever I bring
this up, I usually
hear some pushback on that.
That boundaries are bad.
And I understand
where that comes from.
And it's not a bad
thing that people
are worried about boundaries.
But if we want to create strong
connections in our community,
we have to, at some level,
know where the boundary is.
And well, the boundary is
good because it keeps people
together who share values.
So it may not be important what
they look like, what they wear,
where they live, but at some
level, we're sharing values.
And the reason
that's important is
you want to bring
in community and you
want to tell me that everyone
belongs in the community.
The first question
I have is, is there
anybody in the
world that doesn't
share the values that
are important for you
for your community.
And the answer is
yes, then there's
somebody who shouldn't be in
your community, at least now.
And therein will give you a
hint of where the boundary is.
If you don't have
a boundary at all
or you refuse to acknowledge
that you have a boundary,
you run into what I call the
everything-nothing conundrum.
If everybody in
the entire world,
as far as you're concerned,
belongs in your community,
then there's no
difference between people
in your community and people
who are not in your community.
And that makes it look a lot
like there is no community.
And it's hard to build
strength within the community
if no one can tell who's in
your community and where it is.
To give you a sense
of how pervasive this
is, one of people I interviewed
for my book is my friend
Gabriel Grant.
About 10 years ago, Gabriel
Grant with some partners
founded the Byron Fellowship.
The Byron Fellowship brings
in global social entrepreneurs
around the world, brings them in
for an intensive training here
in the United States,
and then connects them
for the rest of their careers
as they create social change
on all the continents.
And when I asked Gabriel
in the interview, who
belongs in the
Byron fellowship, I
remember there was a
long pause and then he
laughed really hard.
And he said, well,
what I want to say
is everyone belongs in
the Byron Fellowship.
But he laughed hard because
the Byron Fellowship only
accepts nominees from
faculty from the top 100
universities in the world.
And once those
nominees are made,
then the staff of
the Byron Fellowship
go through those
nominees and select
a small minority of those.
So they've actually got
a global system set up
to keep most people out to come
down to the very few Fellows
that they'll accept,
fly in, and train.
But his instinct is the say,
when interviewed, everyone
belongs in our community.
Which is to say, it's
a common instinct,
but it's not necessarily
a great policy
for creating an
intimate community.
And that has to be acknowledged
at some level-- that
not everybody all the time
in our community, thus,
a boundary.
Maybe you are
afraid of boundaries
because you think all boundaries
do is they keep people out.
And they tell them to go away.
And we've all seen
communities that
have a boundary that
seems kind of silly
and maybe kind of mean.
I want to flip that around--
that if you're on the inside
and you're thinking
about building community
and since you're in
this room and you're
listening to me now and
hoping you're in that club--
we can think of
boundaries as primarily
as keeping somewhere safe.
And we have to sometimes
keep some people out
so the inside is safe.
But our priority is
keeping the inside safe,
not concerning
ourselves who we're
keeping out any given minute.
So the question
I have for you is
you're building
community in a church
or otherwise is-- how do
we want inside to be safe
and who do you want
to be safe there.
And how is it different
from everywhere else, where
they may not feel so
safe, talking about things
we want them to talk about or
sharing the things that they're
going to share about when
they're on the inside.
And then making that explicit.
A great example that
came to mind is funerals.
I was briefly a
chaplain in a hospital
and I was so honored when
families would allow me
into rooms where,
on some occasions,
they were literally
having the worst
hours of their lives--
with a death in the family
or sitting with
someone who is sick.
And that was a sacred space.
They don't let everybody in
because whenever someone came
in, they wanted to make sure
that that person honored
what was going on in that room.
And honored that they needed to
have that support in that time
and not take selfies as soon
as they came in the room.
So we can create our
communities in a way
that when someone walks
in, they understand
that they're being honored.
That we're keeping them safe
with whatever they share there.
We're going to find those
connections building.
All right.
And the way that we
make sure that we're not
the jerks that are
just keeping people out
is we make sure there's
achievable entry.
Here's a same bridge I
showed a photograph of.
And if you want to
enter that bridge,
there is an entry
you can walk through.
And there's a difference
between making something
the self-selecting-- when
someone sees the values inside
and they want to join that--
and selecting someone, say
by nomination or application.
All right, the second idea
I'm going to introduce here
is what I call the
Inner Rings Principle.
In mature communities,
what we find is
there is a series of inner
rings that a new member
can enter as they grow.
So the outer ring would be
visitor in the next ring
might be a member and then
they progress in there.
And instead of the
inner ring simply
being more boundaries
for someone
to cross so they can
then brag about being
in an exclusive
group, the inner rings
reflect an expansion of
their sphere of concern.
And I'll talk more
about that in a minute.
But when someone
joins our community--
and that can be a
church-- the question
is, what's available for me.
And most of us want
to grow in some way
and the rings offer a path or an
acknowledgement of that growth.
And we want to grow in two ways.
It may be that there
is technical things
that we want to get good at.
But more important
in our community
is there's a way we
want to grow internally.
And the rings will
reflect that as we
go from a visitor to a member to
a novice to an elder than maybe
even principal elder or master.
So the example looks
like this if we chart it.
Someone travels inside
and that's their path.
The example I'm going to bring
here because it's easy to use
is that of the "Karate Kid".
Hopefully, some of you
have seen this film
or at least heard of it.
If we think of, say, the karate
community or martial arts
community-- when Daniel shows up
he is concerned about one thing
and that's himself.
He wants to protect
himself and he
wants to get good at fighting.
And that would be
an outside ring and.
His realm of concern is
pretty small-- it's him.
And he finds an elder, maybe
even a principal master,
in Mr Miyagi, who then
teaches him about karate.
And we see over the
course of the film
that he learns
technical skills--
punching, kicking--
but of course, we also
see that he learns internal
growth, discipline,
and honoring elders.
Elsewhere in the film,
we see another dojo
by another ostensible master,
who is also teaching them
mostly just technical skills.
And he claims to be
a master, but when
we talk about the inner
rings, about growing
their realm of concern, we
know by the end of the film
that he's only
concerned about himself
and his own group of fighters.
And we know that because
in the third act,
he encourages his own fighters
to hurt other fighters
whereas Mr. Miyagi is about not
only all fighters in karate,
but he demonstrates
in the first act
that he even cares about kids
getting beat up on the street.
Which is to say, he's
concerned not only
about everybody in
his tribe, but he's
concerned about how the
tribe serves and interacts
with a dynamic world.
So in the best, most
mature communities,
as we go in those
inner rings, we
don't enter those inner
rings just to brag about it--
we enter those inner
rings because we
get to concern ourselves
with more people
until the point we're
concerned about the whole world
as an elder master.
That's the Inner Ring Principle.
The last idea I'm
going to introduce here
is what I call the
Crisis of Belongingness.
This is not one of the main
principles of the book,
but it is discussed.
And the Crisis of Belonging
is exactly the phenomenon
I referenced earlier in
my story with Melo and me,
where we were convinced
we didn't belong,
even though from the
outside, it looked
like we did to everybody else.
And hopefully you
have some empathy
with what this feels
like-- to be somewhere
where you're invited
but not quite convinced
that you belong there.
It often feels like-- it looks
like this when we're there.
I bring this up because it's
far more common than I ever
thought it would be.
And I share it here
because I've discovered
that one of the things that
addresses this is so simple,
it's actually almost
difficult to believe.
And that's simply
making invitations.
When we make an
invitation to someone
who's in a crisis of belonging
or even when we're experiencing
ourselves, as I did
in graduate school,
the invitation does two things.
The first one is every time we
make an invitation to someone,
they get evidence
that they belong.
And whether they accept
that invitation or not,
they now have a data
point that someone else
thinks they belong.
And when we're having
that crisis of belonging,
every time we make
an invitation,
we share with others that
we have the authority
to help others
belong to the point
where it doesn't actually
matter if anybody joins us
almost ever.
The invitations themselves
have all the power.
What I didn't tell
you about Melo--
and here's a picture of him on
a far more happier day-- is he
only came to my home
for dinner three times
that entire first year.
It wasn't the dinners they gave
him the strength to come back.
It was the invitations
that he was welcomed
at those dinners that let
him know that he wasn't alone
and that he belonged.
And that changed
his entire life.
And as we're working
in our communities--
and includes churches--
the invitations
we can extend at almost no cost.
All right.
Before, I move forward
to go into discussion,
there's three thoughts I
want to leave you with.
The first one is
I really believe
community needs to be fun.
If they're not fun, I don't
want people showing up
and I certainly don't
want to help to build it.
We talked earlier
about churches.
If church isn't fun,
then I can imagine
it's really hard to
get people involved.
So everything that I've
talked about with community--
the assumption is we
want to make this fun.
The second idea I
want to share is
I really believe people are
desperate for connection.
We talked about a few
statistics that I've
discovered while I was
doing research for the book,
but as I talk to people
now around the country,
I'm shocked about how
much we're in the rooms
where we're unaware how much
the other people in that room
are desperate to be
connected with us.
And I bring this
up so that you're
in this room now learning
about this, presumably,
there's a reason for that--
that you feel embolden
that, in fact, people are
waiting for you to invite them
in.
And lastly, since we're
going invite people in,
to please be brave
with your invitations.
I put a picture of
me in the Peace Corps
here for this last photograph.
And the reason
for that is you're
really clear how much I looked
like the people in my village.
And as I've grown
older and thought
about how they welcomed
me and invited me in
and fed me and looked
out for me-- how
brave they were to invite
me into their lives
and literally allowing me
to hold their children.
And those invitations
and that welcome
literally changed my life.
So I encourage us
all to consider
how being brave with invitations
can change the world.
So those are the
ideas I want to share.
Today is the day of
the book release.
I'm excited to share
this with the world.
So Nick.
NICK: I know that you've been
asked for various technology
companies, finance companies,
to go and kind of be
a consultant of developing
a sense of community
in the workplace.
So where would do
you even start there?
What is ground one?
Is it more research?
Is it more you need to do
this or you need to do that.
CHARLES VOGL: Well the
first question I have
is, why do you want to
bring people together.
And I'm a big
believer that if you
want to build a
genuine community,
there needs to be some
service being provided.
People are committing
their time, right?
There voting with their feet,
they're voting with their time.
And I want to know if you
want to build it together,
why do you want to do that.
And if it's to get
something out of them,
then that's a
pretty cruddy reason
to go build community, right?
There are other ways to get
people to do things for you
than pretend you want
to build community.
So the first question is
why do you want to do it
and then why would they
want to participate.
And then when
that's established,
we know that people do
want to participate.
Then the next question
I have is, well,
how do people know when
they belong, right?
You may think you
know or you may
think that they should
know, but how do they know.
And it's really
remarkable how much
the answer is, I have no idea.
Right?
They should know.
And I've actually spoken to
a number of religious leaders
about this who are trying
to grow their churches
or at least grow the
connections in their church
and it's shocking
how difficult it
is for someone who's visiting
to find out how they can belong,
how they can get invited.
And one of things that I
think is really important
is what I call a gatekeeper.
If there's a community
that you want
to be part of as a visitor
to an event-- for example,
you figure out, well,
there are values here
I want to participate in, right?
A commitment, a service that
I want to participate in.
Who are the people that
can find that visitor
and invite them
across that boundary.
Do you just leave it up to
visitors to figure it out.
Do they walk around
kind of ignored
until they figure out they
can't find the gate in
and then they leave.
And if you don't have people
who know that members need
to act as the gatekeeper to
help the right valued people
across the boundary, then
you're probably losing people.
And I want to know
how that's happening.
And the answer to that is
always going to change, right?
Because communities
are as diverse.
Everybody gets together.
But fundamentally,
a visitor is going
to need a way to get access in.
AUDIENCE: If you,
take for example,
a church that's largely just
visitors on that outer ring
and you, naturally, want to
bring them into community,
either smaller sub-communities
within the church or just
the inner ring of
the church-- I guess,
mainly, my question is
about smaller communities
within the church.
How do you get someone who's
on the outside-- just sort
of on a visitor
level-- to acknowledge
the importance of joining one
of these smaller sub-communities
and becoming in the inner
ring of one of those?
CHARLES VOGL: Right.
So the answer is, of course, I
don't know about your church.
Which is to say, if I say
things that don't apply to you,
you're probably right,
because I've never
visited anybody there and
seen your programming.
And I want you to
know that I don't
have that much hubris to
know how you should run that.
The questions that
just to my mind
is, do those visitors know
what's available to them.
Do they know the values
or the priorities
of those small groups that you
think they may want to join.
And maybe, quite frankly,
none of those visitors
want anything what you're
offering, if that's the case--
and I'm not assuming it is.
But if it is the case,
maybe the best case scenario
is they don't show up, right?
But I don't know that.
If we're assuming
that that's wrong,
that they do want
what you're offering--
and by virtue of
that, belong there--
the question is, do you know how
they're learning what's there.
And then the other
question I have--
and I know what the answer to
it is-- how are they getting
invited.
Because maybe they
do belong there,
but they're not getting
that invitation, right?
And it could be a
matter that we think,
well gee, they
know it's there, we
say it's there, that
should be enough.
Fair enough, but if you're not
getting the results you want,
the question is, can you
invite them more powerfully.
Let them know that they're
invited-- not, it's available
and people can show up.
And partly that's going to come
from someone that I referenced
earlier-- a gatekeeper-- who
understands for people to cross
the boundary that
they want to cross,
that we want them to cross
so that they will grow
to be enriched in the
ways they want to be grown
and enriched-- someone's
got to take that role.
Otherwise, people bounce off
and for almost obvious reasons.
AUDIENCE: And
we're going to take
the example of a music band.
I heard you say community
is about having fun.
And yes, of course, for example,
playing music can be fun.
But at the same
time, my question
was, how do you
get people that are
out there on their
free will to commit
to do things that are maybe
less fun but need to happen?
Or like in your example
with the dinner,
how do you make the
transition for somebody
that comes and hangs
out and it's fun
to actually do
something about it
and get involved and prepare
the next meal or whatever?
CHARLES VOGL: OK.
So when you say
get involved, you
don't simply mean, get
involved, have fun,
but at the end of the day,
there are mechanical needs
that have to happen.
And you need people to do that
so that the entire community
can participate in this event.
Again, the question that jumps
to my mind-- and we may not
have time to answer
it in detail now--
is, well, why are they coming.
And I'm certain there's a good
reason, because they're coming.
And you said when they're
coming of their own free will--
hopefully, everything
we're talking about,
people who are coming in
of their own free will.
And if they're not, then
that's an entirely different
conversation.
So they're coming,
they're voting,
there's something that they're
getting there they're excited
about .
And I'm going to guess that
they are growing in a way
that they want to grow.
Now, that could be
musically, but my guess
is that's probably just part and
a minority of the way they're
growing when they
show up with you
in your community
for those hours.
My guess is what's
going on there
is the other way
that they're growing
is they're building friendships
and maybe even they're becoming
better friends-- that
some percentage of people
are showing up actually
do want to contribute.
And if they value coming
together and building
that friendship and building
that friendship around music,
my guess is some
percentage of them
want to contribute to the
group in a way of creating
that container.
Because a container can't happen
unless someone creates it,
right?
So the question that I have
is, can you make an invitation
or have you been making
invitations for those members
to create that container.
When it makes clear,
what needs to be done,
and why you're doing it.
And I don't mean we're
doing it, like we
need to have enough chairs,
but why we're doing it
because this space is where
musicians come together
and build those friendships
over months and years,
as opposed to finding
random events.
In my experience, I'm
shocked-- in the best way--
how much people want
to contribute when
they're invited to do
so in a community that
holds their values.
And usually, my mistake
is I'm not asking enough.
AUDIENCE: Some people are
willing to participate.
And some people are there
just to get gigs and get paid.
CHARLES VOGL: OK, I'm
glad you brought that up.
So, obviously,
it's OK for people
to show up at some place with
different priority, right?
Because we're never going
to find an entire room where
everybody has the
exact same priorities.
And that's where it goes
to back to the values.
So if you're getting
together because you
want to build friendships
and enjoy music,
that's a very different
value than I'm here
to get my next job.
And maybe those two could
remain compatible, right?
But we can acknowledge
that they are different.
And if what you want is
people to get together
to build friendship
and play music,
at some point, if people
who aren't valuing
that and their valuing their
next gig and everything that
doesn't give that to them
is a waste of their time
and distraction--
there may come a time
where you need to draw
a more firm boundary.
Because if you're
not getting support
you need to create a
container looking for,
it's just not sustainable.
And if it's not
sustainable, then forget it.
AUDIENCE: If we take the same
example-- you have musicians
out there for the wrong
values that you want
to build your community
around, then what do you
do with those guys?
Do you get rid of them?
CHARLES VOGL: If it's
important for you
to have a group that has
the values that you want
and not have people with
values you're not looking.
Now, if they change their
values, fair enough, right?
Because you're not
telling them they
can't come because
of who they are.
It's just that you
don't want people
marketing themselves--
you want people
building friendship and
playing music, right?
So if that's important for
you, then I think, yes.
You put it as
getting rid of them.
I would say I think
it's important
that you identify the people
you want to invest in.
And now how you draw that
line is going to be up to you
and I don't have the
solution for that, right?
And it could be that you just
have other events where you're
only inviting people that have
the values you're looking for.
Or you create rules
that says, look,
while we're here
doing this, we're not
doing this other thing, right?
And if you want to do that,
that's fine, just not here now.
Because this is the space.
Because what you want to
create-- not everybody
belongs in that
group all the time
AUDIENCE: I want to
challenge you a little bit,
jumping back to mentioning
the importance of fun.
But then going back to the
story you started with,
in terms of going to the
church, people listening music
were having fun
but you mentioned
you were looking for
something more contemplative.
So I'm curious-- if by fun you
mean, is it really about fun?
Is it really about something
larger in terms of something
that we enjoy?
Something that we
find meaningful?
Something that gives us purpose.
Something that brings
excitement or adventure.
How narrowly scoped do you want
to really focus on that fun?
CHARLES VOGL:
Well, I don't think
the fun is end all be all.
The reason I bring it up
is that I've discovered
that in the literature
about community,
often, it's not about fun.
And the assumption
is people are there
because they have to be there.
Because they live in the
same neighborhood or they
work in the same company
and it's just no fun.
And I don't I wouldn't want
to build that community.
I certainly wouldn't want
to grow it unless there
was some element of fun.
And in the book,
I discuss rituals.
And I think one of the
most important rituals
that a community needs to have
is what I call play rituals.
The most common is feasting.
And probably, every community
that isn't geared to you, there
is some time where you'd
get together and celebrate
with food.
The fancy term is feast.
That probably never occurred
to you as extraordinary,
but it's important.
But can you imagine being in,
say, a corporate environment
or a neighborhood
environment where nobody ever
schedule time to have those kind
of meals or those times, right?
Because, we'll never
get any business done,
we're here for whatever.
Well, that's no fun.
I think something
that's meaningful
is terribly important.
I don't know if in every
community, everywhere,
we can create deep
levels of meaning.
I would love that to happen.
All the committees that I
invest my time in-- they
are deeply meaningful to me.
And what I mean by that is
they connect me with the past.
And what I'm doing now is
connecting to the future.
And I want most of what
I do to be standing
in the tradition of
something, at least
standing on the shoulders of
the people who got me here
so I could do it now.
And I want what
I'm doing to serve
people are going to come
next-- in the next hour
or the next generation.
And as soon as that's
true, that's meaningful.
I don't know if that's the
standard for every community.
AUDIENCE: The other
thing I was hearing
that I want to check out with
you is, for these communities,
there's this kind of
voluntary participation.
It's not work, it's not
family, or commitments.
Acknowledging that there's
an opportunity cost.
Acknowledging that people who
are deciding to participate
rather than whatever
other way they
might spend their leisure time.
And so how to make it
compelling in that way.
CHARLES VOGL: If we, as
leaders-- meaning bringing
people together-- want to
build strong communities,
we have to know at some level
how people want to grow.
And I count having
more friends to call
when I'm having a bad
night-- like totally counts.
Because I'm growing
in a friendship
and growing and building
[INAUDIBLE] friends.
But none the less, we
need to know how to grow.
Because if they're not
growing and we're not
providing that-- even
if not personally, then
in the experience-- then I don't
know why people would show up.
And I bring that up
because I'll talk to people
and they don't know
how people are growing.
And often, there
can be a mistake
of how they want to grow.
So one of the people
interviewed for my book
is Marcus Graham, who's
the head of community
for the 100 million
unique user month
community on Twitch online.
And 100 million people is
bigger than many countries
in the world.
And they struggle
with understanding
how that diverse
amount of people
want to use their
platform and come together
and connect and use it.
And they're not all the same.
And as they grow, they get
more and more different.
And so they've
learned that they need
to bring people into their
office in San Francisco.
Even though they're one of
the largest online platform
for connection in the
history of the world,
they've learned they need
to bring people physically
into their office and listen
to them for days in a row
to understand, what
is it you want.
Now, they don't use
my language, how
do you want to grow, how
do you want to enrich.
But goodness knows
the people who
will bring it don't
want the status quo
and Twitch doesn't
want the status quo.
But to get there from here,
they've got to understand that.
And that's true for all of us.
And we might get
lucky in the beginning
and marginal success will show
us, oh, something is right.
But as the church gets
bigger or the music community
gets bigger, that's going to
make it harder and harder.
And there may be a
divergence there.
And that's OK to acknowledge
that not all communities need
to grow in their natural
trajectory all the time, right?
If it grows into something you
don't want to build anymore--
because maybe it's more about
getting people gigs than it is
about growing the
music or appreciating
the tradition-- than it's OK,
as far as I'm concerned, to say,
that's not what I want to grow.
That's one that you want to grow
and you're welcome to do that.
But I would invest
my time elsewhere.
AUDIENCE: I was curious
to know how important you
feel physically being
in the same place is.
And you sort of
addressed this earlier,
but do you think
that communities
that don't physically meet-- for
example, ones that are online--
are they capable of the same
level of being a community?
Are the hampered
in particular ways?
And then a related
question would be,
if they do meet
physically in person,
how frequently do these kind of
physical meetings need to be?
Like, could it just
be at Christmas
when everyone's visiting
their family-- they all
get together-- or et cetera.
CHARLES VOGL: Right.
Thanks for asking.
So online communities
is something I
do address in the book briefly.
And to understand
that, I interviewed
people who are managing
millions of people
online in communities.
And absolutely,
online communities
are communities and
provide an enormous amount
of support and connections
that are rich all of the world.
No question about that.
Also, what I
discovered in speaking
of people who
professionally manage
these is at the end
of the day, right now,
nothing matches bringing
people together in a room.
And I'm sure there's a lot
of ideas of why that is.
There's nothing wrong with
never going into that room.
But when you build
that community online,
giving people a place to
come together and see one
another makes an
enormous difference.
And one of the principles
that I do talk about
is the principle--
what I call the temple.
And all the temple
is in the work
that I talk about is a place
where a community can come
together or people
of shared values
can come together
and enact rituals.
And that ritual can simply
be feasting together.
Or honoring somebody
in their community
that's honestly
important to them.
When we come together
in what I call a temple,
one of things that
goes on is we can see
who else is in the community.
And even if that is
a teeny percentage
of the people in
that community, we
get a sense of how
big the community is
and what it looks like and
the fact that we belong there.
And leadership-- creating
a space where people
can come to-- and the
fancy word I use for that
his pilgrimage, where they have
the opportunity to pilgrimage
there-- can build belonging.
And there's nothing wrong
with not coming to that place.
And people who
come to that place
are not better than
the other people.
But in leadership,
if we create that,
that creates a stronger
sense of belonging.
And even for the
people who don't come,
knowing they can come, knowing
that there is an invitation,
knowing that they belong
there if they choose to go--
creates a stronger
sense of belonging.
And so obviously, the
advantages of being online
is the internet doesn't sleep.
Rent is pretty cheap.
No one has to find the keys.
Parking is usually pretty good.
And so a lot of things
that happen online that
can't happen in an arena.
However, not to
dismiss the investment
of bringing people together.
And as far as
frequency goes, there's
no way for me to know that.
I think a group of best friends
from high school-- maybe
they're cool with once a.
Year people who are supporting
each other as their families
wrestle with a diagnosis
of cancer-- may
twice a week is just the
right amount of time, right?
I don't know the answer.
You get to figure that out.
But in both cases, what
we're acknowledging
is sitting in the same
room together makes
a profound difference.
NICK: So you mentioned
feasting before.
And as I said before,
I know personally,
you have perfected the
art of dinner parties.
So I wanted to
know, say if we have
a network of friends-- this
will be the perfect way for me
to get there.
What would you advise for that?
And how do we even
go about what would
be the best version of a feast?
So say, our team
here at Google--
great team of people we have.
Gourmet food downstairs
and how do we frame it of,
I want to celebrate our
teamwork, what you've all done.
And what is the best
way in a modern day
to create space for that?
CHARLES VOGL: So
let me be really
clear that I'm certain
that I don't know how
your community should feast.
And I'm certain that
I don't know what
the best gathering is for you.
What I can speak to
is the principles
that you, as you make those
efforts to bring people
together, may want
to keep in mind
and know how much you
want to turn up the volume
or turn down the volume
on those principles
so that you enrich what
you're already investing in.
And as far as bringing
friends together
for a meal-- whether
I've perfected it
or not-- one of things I
discovered in our culture now,
or at least in my tribe,
is the number of times
that someone is invited
to sit down in a room
without electronic
distraction, without an agenda,
to spend three to four
hours talking with someone
in that room with no outcome
required of them-- sometimes
approximate 0 times a year.
Maybe you're doing
better than that.
But I'm shocked by
how seldom that is.
And I discovered how
unspeakably powerful
it is when someone in
the community says,
I'm going to create that space.
And all we're going to do
is get to know one another
and talk about what we
think is important to us.
And there are all kinds
of subjects that come up--
vulneralbilities-- that can
come out after 2 and 1/2
hours or three hours
talking that doesn't come up
after 30 minutes or 25 minutes.
And for those of us who
are willing to create
that container and if you will
create the rules of that space
so that someone can
feel comfortable
that they belong there
and they're welcome there
and they'll be listened there
is a powerful investment
in the community.
And I hope you do it as
much as you possibly can.
NICK: Join me in thanking
Charles for being here.
