

### Aptavani 8

Gnani Purush Dadashri

Shuddha Anami

Copyright 2010 by Shuddha Anami

Smashwords Edition

# Word from the Translator:

Please note that Gnani Purush Dadashri never wrote a word for any book. This book is a compilation of his spoken words in satsang, and Shuddha Anami is a translator within a collective, of the words spoken in Gujarati. Shuddha has been sharing the English translations of the words of Gnani Purush Dadashri on the Internet since 1992.

Here is a translation of the words of Dadashri:

"This speech is an original 'tape record'. I am not the owner of this speech. I am the 'Knower' of the words that come out. The words of the Gnani Purush cannot be sold. They are to be left as they are. These words will be the basis for new scriptures for the current era of the time cycle."

# Notes from Translators

Aptavani 8, the original book in Gujarati, compiled and edited by Dr. Niruben Amin was published in August 1984. This Aptavani in two major sections leads the seeker to the realm of the Self through the now famous Gnan Vidhi of Gnani Purush Dadashri who presented Akram Vignan to the world. The entire Aptavani is about the self and the Self.

The Gnan Vidhi of the Gnani Purush separates the Self from the self. The reader is requested to allow for the use of capital letters in the book, which have been used frequently for ease of understanding the message of the Gnani Purush. The small 's' is the self or the worldly interacting self, where the reader has to introduce one's own worldly name. The 'S' is used to denote the awakened Self after the Gnan Vidhi or the absolute Self. Similarly, the small 'y' is used for the worldly self, and the 'Y' for 'You' is for the awakened One. The small 'v' is for the vision through the worldly eyes or the physical eyes whereas the 'V' is for the Vision of the awakened One as the Self. In the same vein, the words that are meant to convey the realm and domain of the awakened Self have capital use eg. 'Knower' or 'Seer' or 'Conduct' versus knower, seer, conduct as the self.

Gnani Purush Dadashri in His _satsang_ often used the word 'we'. This means the 'Gnani Purush and the absolute One within.' The 'We' in the book denotes the plurality of the awakened Ones in Akram Vignan who are known all over the world as _mahatmas._

Dictionary meanings fail when words are used to describe aspects of the Self, which can only be experienced, especially when two levels experiences are happening simultaneously. The same word in Gujarati changes in its applied meaning depending on the context of the conversation. Therefore the intent of the message, more frequently the meaning of the word, is placed in parenthesis that follows the new unfamiliar word in Gujarati. Many new concepts appear under a Gujarati word or phrase for which many words have to be used in English. When this becomes frequent the Gujarati word is used because the meaning has been defined in the preceding paragraphs and pages. The reader will derive new experiences with each repeated reading of the same pages of this magnificent Aptavani of Dadashri.

It is with a deep sense of gratitude that the team involved in the process of preparing of this Aptavani in English and other previous Aptavanis, offer them to the reader. It is offered with their ardent prayer that Dadashri becomes live for you as 'You' read it. This is sure to happen for You as you read this compilation of live recorded _satsang_ of the Gnani Purush that has been done by Atmagnani Pujya Deepakbhai under the guidance of Pujya Dr. Niruben Amin.

Sarvagnya na Soocharanoma

Shuddha

December 8 2011

Los Angeles

www.dadashri.org

Jai Sat Chit Anand

The Awareness Of The Eternal Is Bliss

**Table of Contents**

Word from the Translator:

Notes from Translators

Table of Contents

Samarpan

APTAVANI 8 EDITORIAL

PREFACE

PART ONE

What is the Soul? What is it like?

PART: TWO

WHO AM I? HOW TO KNOW THIS?

Part One: What is the Soul? What must it be like?

What is Atma?

What must the Soul be?

Know the Atma from the Gnani

Who has doubts about the existence of the soul?

Existence of soul! By which qualities?

...but whose attributes are they?

And what are the attributes of Atma?

Pleasure is also liked by the jiva

Where there is feeling, there is self

...but the one that has feelings is the non-Self complex!

To 'Know' continuously, is the nature of the Self

Soul is the abode of infinite attributes

When will such attributes of the Self manifest?

How can the Soul be known?

Infinite energies manifest through becoming familiar with Gnani

'Patel' is the neighbor and the 'Self' is in the Paramatma

Atma – with form (saakari) and without form (niraakari)

Where in the body is the Soul not present?

Beliefs versus Facts

The Soul expands and contracts according to the receptacle

Does the Soul reenter the same body after death?

What is death? What happens after death?

So many adjustments of nature!

The balance sheet of the current life dictates the next life form

Moksha is desired by those who...

These are the laws of nature

How long will the process of rebirth take?

The same old routine life after life

The planning is the origin of karma

Planning of past life, effect in this life

Resolutions of the parliamentary members come into effect

In the company of the Soul

'Here' there is a guarantee of just one more life before moksha

Illusion is the cause of birth and death

Forces of discharge cause charging in ignorance

Causes results in the cycles of birth and death

The Gnani destroys the cycles of birth and death

New fresh body and senses for next life

How long does the relationship with the subtle body last?

Who is stuck to whom?

The Self is verily pure; the beliefs are wrong

How can there be a coming and a going for that which is eternal?

The first human being in the world?

Who will remove the twisted vision in circumstances?

That is why the Gnanis have called it anadi anant

How can there be a beginning for the eternal?

Intact arrangement of the interacting life forms in the world

The puzzle of the creation and dissolution of the world

Creation is verily the natural science

The elements with form are 'visible' in this universe

It is the same, whenever you look at it

From anadi saant to saadi anant

Changing of circumstances is the nature of the world

Nature's unfathomable planning

Ultimately the solution will come through the association with the Gnani.

Moksha is certain; the time of moksha is not

'Turn the ego around' – the way of the Vitarags.

The original track of moksha resumes after Self -realization

By nature one rises to higher life form, but when?

Ego is the weight that pulls the soul downwards

Descent into lower life forms after human life

That is when the Soul will go to moksha

The wanderings into different life forms is a natural law

Differences are seen due to illusion

Divine and unprecedented inner intent of world's salvation (jagatkalyan)

That is when the light of Gnan shines

Only the Gnani Purush can shed light on the reality of the world

The soul as the world knows is mechanical soul

And in the eyes of the Vitarags, the Soul is....

Mishrachetan in planning, mechanical in discharge

Egoism, but still in the form of a tool!

Who am I? Vastutva

Is knowing the knowledge of the Self enough? No.

Which method is easier? To know the pudgal or the Self?

One will find the Atma even if he knows complete ignorance - agnan

The world - as it is

Vedas is theoretical, Science is practical

The Gnani is the evidence of moksha

Even the word is temporary

Even the means to attain the Self is vikalp

Vikalp makes one miss out the final opportunity

After becoming free from intellect One becomes one with others

The science of separation and the Vetta

Where can one attain the Atma?

Just one staircase but different steps

Atma, neither dvaita nor advaita, it is dvait-advait

Dvaita-advaita; both are duality

When will the experience of advaita come?

Going beyond dualities advaita is experienced

What compassion of sharing the Eternal!

Obstinate insistence on one view obstructs Self-realization

The Self is true and world is true too but...

Will one not have to understand the facts?

Having attained the eternal truth, the relative truth remains

Ignorance veils the Self

The difference between vision of God and Vision of the Self

First Brahmanishtha, then Atmanishtha !

Brahma is beyond even words

The Self attained at the feet of the Gnani Purush

Experience of change in one's state through change in vision

'One' is Shiva, but due to illusion he believes he is jiva

Only the Expert can separate the Shiva from jiva

Jiva-the Self, neither separate nor non-separate

'I', 'Bavo' and 'Mangaldas'

Only 'that' awareness is needed

Upon attaining awareness of the Self, One becomes immortal

The separation disappears when illusion leaves

Saying God You are separate will never lead to Self-realization

...but the path of removing seapration is the same

The jiva is the doer and the sufferer

When can one ever become the non-doer by doing?

Only the Gnani can free you from wrong beliefs

So many consequences of the illusion!

The same One has so many roles

One becomes free by 'worshipping' the One who is free

Attributes of the new changed state

Through Gnani Purush, One attains absolute state of the Self

Conviction of the Paramatma leads to the absolute Self

Every soul is a separate entity even in Siddha kshetra

The talk will need to be scientific

There is no merging of the souls

If the light merges into another light, what is it for you?

Continuously immersed in the eternal bliss is moksha

The experience of the bliss of the Self in the Siddhagati

One by nature but separate in existence

The Soul Can Not Be Divided!

Can a Rupee coin ever turn into a paisa coin?

The Real Understanding of the Omnipresent

The receptacle of the universe is filled by the light of Paramatma

Omnipresent by the relative viewpoint only

Are there souls in everything in the world?

Original revelation through the exact Vision

Is the Self without attributes or with infinite attributes?

Nothing is attributeless in this world

Ultimately only the attributes of the prakruti are nurtured

Symbols from the worldy vision and view of the Gnani Purush

Moksha means to remain and grow in the attributes of the Self

Understand 'correctness' from the Gnani Purush

The bondage of the atma

Moksha is attained upon meeting the giver of moksha

Whose intention is it to attain moksha?

... and the coming and the going is also of the ego!

No pain at all for the One established as the Self

Dualities perpetuate the bondage

This human body worth if one can move towards moksha

Is moksha possible for every atma?

'Namo Siddhanam' – is the worship of the goal

The Siddha have no activity and yet there is activity

The magnificence of the Siddha kshetra

The extraordinary state of the Siddhas; that is the ultimate goal

Part Two 'Who am I?' How can I know that?

How can the cycles of birth and death end?

The one 'seeing' the temporary is permanent

What are my attributes? A big mistake in understanding this

The hidden Self, a wonderous, wonderous state!

The main mistake lies in the belief

Who will destroy that illusion?

The difference between the destructible and the indestructible

The illusion due to the mixture of indestructible and destructible

Parmatma sends the light and eternal bliss

Worshipping the Self brings bliss of the Self

Such is the nature of the world

Doership verily is the illusion

If one has not heard about, believed in or known the Atma, then...

The Gnani dissolves spiritual darkness

Gnani can help one experience the Self

Constant uninterrupted thoughts about the Self are useful

He is not giver of moksha, if he cannot give you moksha

From time immemorial the mistake of determining the Self

Every instrument of freedom became a source of bondage

You cannot get rid of your ego by your own efforts.

Will the enquiry into 'Who am I?' ever succeed on your own?

This is someone else's mail that you have opened

Detachment to the worldly life atttained through grace

A complete explanation removes all entanglements

One forgot the Self in relations

There is no belief of who You really are

Liberation requires understanding the siddhant

The Samadhi of the state of the Self prevails

Do efforts become fruitful in this era of the time cycle?

Awareness has to be changed, not the activity

There is never any difficulty in progress towards the Self

Take advantage of the presence of a living Gnani Purush

What can the seeking attain without the understanding?

Obstructive causes in spirituality

Where is the spiritual path in the world?

The Self with exact awareness arises only upon destruction of sins

Zero has no value without the 'One'

Atma is way beyond the observer of thoughts

That which is believed will not do, You will have to know it

Without a Gnani Purush, even endless efforts are futile

When can one know the Chetan in this world?

As the belief of 'I am this body' dispels, the experience of the Self is attained

How wonderful is the Knowledge of the Self!

How great is the Knower

The invisible One realizes the invisible One

Experience is separate; Self-realization is separate

The experience of the Self is from the One with that experience

If it does not last, then it is not the experience of the Self

Conduct follows the experience

The ego attains the pure Self

As long as there is ignorance, the ego exists

Experience of the Self is completely different from all other experiences

Where there is complete 'fitting' of the facts

Knowledge of the Self from the Gnani

Conviction of attaining the Self...

Bound through the belief...

Ultimately liberation is only through becoming the Self

The body leaves but not the beliefs

When the belief changes, karma leave

Destruction of the 'belief', with a 'belief'

The siddhant of the element from the vision of independence

The Vidhi by the Gnani separates the Self and the non-Self

Gnan is attained as a result of inner intent

...then the obstacles to Gnan are destroyed

Then the Self is experienced in conduct

Understanding the word 'Shuddhatma'

Shuddhatma cannot be attained by saying 'Soham - I am That'

After becoming shuddha, can one can say ' I am Shuddhatma'

Can you light with a real lamp or a picture of a lamp?

Shuddhatma cannot be attained through chanting

Oneness with God is there when the wrong belief goes away

To experience Shuddhatma, say 'Shuddhatma'

Karma bondage through doership that prevails

Pure or impure – from which view?

One has to know 'what is' and 'what is not'

How can one know 'what he is not'?

One attains moksha leisurely in the 'lift' of the Akram path

Meeting the Gnani is the only qualification needed

The desire to know will grant You the ultimate thing

Special matchless unique siddhis of the Akram path

To know the Atma is to experience the Self

It can be known through the Gnani's Gnan of separation

Worldly life ends through Vitaraag vision

Without a change in the vision, everything is in vain

The vision changes through the grace of Gnani

Internalize the senses or become the Self?

They are all 'mechanical adjustments'!

The Ego is the cause of all the effects

How can doubts about the pure Soul be put to rest?

The vision changes, not the Atma

The method for the final solution is different

Gnan opens it up as it is

In the entire worldly life, prevailing influence of ignorance only

Who is the 'doer' of karma?

In whom does the impurity arise?

The worldly self mistaken as the eternal Self

In the formed world of discharge, bondage through belief

Only the living Gnani can bring the facts to light

Indescribable experiences of the original element, the Self

Seeing the Self only through the Self

The vision of the goldsmith is always on the pure gold

The scientific differences between the real and the relative

The Gnani illuminates the siddhant naturally

The beginning and the end of the world in the Gnani's Gnan

When the vision becomes pure, it becomes absorbed in the pure

One's salvation is through the awareness of the Self

I really appreciate you reading this book! Here are my social media coordinates:

#

# Samarpan

Surrender filled Offering

_Anantkaad vahi gayo_ , _na thhayoon Atmadarshan_

Infinite eras of time have gone, and yet the Self has not been realized

Pragat Gnani vina, kaun kholey sudarshan?

Without a manifest living Gnani, who will unveil the pure Vision?

Gnani tana darshaney, madi jaaya jo nijdarshan,

If upon meeting the Gnani, the Vision of the Self is attained

_Aho_! _Aho_! _Anupama abheda vishwadarshan_!

Wow! The universal vision of oneness that is beyond accolades!

Drashti padata ja, avada nu savadu bataavey,

Upon the very first look, shows He the right within the wrong

Antardaha ni avirat sindari bujhaavey

Extinguishes the constantly burning rope of inner turmoil

Thokaro hash atki, thhata Gnan ujaasey

Ah! The obstructive falls have ceased with the Light of Gnan

Sansaari dukha abhaav, sanatan sukha suvaasey.

Indifference for worldly pains, replaced by the eternally fragrant bliss.

' _Gnani' ney pragatyoon jey, 'aa' darshan niravaranu,_

The completely unveiled Vision, which has manifest within the Gnani,

Anant bhedey, pradeshey, Atmatattva jhadakyoo

At infinite locations and infinite unveilings, the Self-element illuminates

Nija na dosho dekhaadey, sookshmattarey sukshmattamey,

Showing the faults of the self, at subtler and subtlest level

' _Darshan_ ' _kevad poogyoon, atkyoon Gnan chaar anshey._

The absolute Vision attained, lacking four degrees of absolute Gnan

_Aho 'aa' darshaney_ , _khoolya mokshamarg dushamkaadey,_

Oh Wonder! With This Vision, opens the path of liberation in Kaliyuga

Pratyek pagley paatharyaa prakash param hiitey,

Laid He the Light for the ultimate absolute salvation

_Bandhan todaavatoo, drashti badaltu 'Dada' Darshan_!

This Vision of 'Dada' that cuts shackles, changes vision!

' _Aptavani' thaki jagakalyan arthey samarpan._

Is offerd for the salvation of the world through this Aptavani.

Dr. Niruben Amin

# APTAVANI 8 EDITORIAL

Published in this book is the real vision about the original properties of the Self and other eternal elements, the vision that has flown from the speech of the Gnani Purush of Akram Vignan who came to be known to the world as Dadashri. The compilation of the entire book is divided in two parts. In the first half, part I, the questioner asks many questions such as, what is the Self ( _Atma_ )? What is It like? And gets complete answers leading to total satisfaction, from the Gnani Purush. In the second part, the reader-questioner now is eager for Self-realization, so he gets guidance by asking questions about 'Who am I?', 'How do I get the knowledge of this?', 'How do I recognize the Self?', 'How to attain Self-realization?' etc.

Starting from doubts about the existence of the Self, here are the satisfactions of hundreds of questioners regarding 'what is the Soul? What is it like? What does it do? What is birth and death? Who gets birth or death? What is _karma_? What are the four life ( _chaar_ _gati_ ) levels of existence after death? What are the hidden facts about arriving at those four states? What is final _moksha_ ( _moksha_ )? What is the state of final liberation ( _Siddhagati_ )? What is _pratishtit atma_? What is _mishra chetan -_ mixed self? What is _nischetan chetan_? What is ego and its resultant effects ( _vishesh_ _parinam_ )? What is the _jiva_ (self, living being)? What is the realized Self ( _Shiva_ )? What is dualism ( _dvaita_ )? What is non-dualism ( _advaita_ )? What is _Brahma_ (pure Self) ? What is _Prabrahma_ (absolute Self)? The dictum 'I am the One, and became many – ( _ekohum_ _bahooshyam_ ), the omnipresence of Self, the meaning of the presence of God in every particle, the meaning of the _Vedas_ and the Science etc.- all such secrets of _Vedant_ are opened up here. Also shown is the primary but basic and proper understanding of spirituality on the basis of which one has to go through the path to the final liberation and if there is the slightest difference of understanding about it- and that difference may be only just 'one hair worth' – then instead of going on a path that is 'parallel' to the path of the Gnani Purush; one will reach a different destination after traveling millions of miles.

Where there is the illusory belief prevailing that, 'I am a part of the absolute Self ( _Paramatma_ )' - how can one understand that the 'I am verily the absolute Self', not a fraction, but the complete Self? And if this is not there in the belief, to begin with, then how can one attain that state? Many such illusory beliefs have been held due to that which has been acquired in association with the people of the world and they make one's conduct move away from the exact vision!

The essence of all scriptures, all spiritual disciples and spiritual activities is one and the same and that is to get the 'awareness and the knowledge of Self'. The 'main Self' is verily ( _shuddha_ ) pure, but one has the 'wrong belief' of who am I? which is removed by the living Gnani Purush. That which can never be attained even over millions of lifetimes, can be attained from the Gnani Purush within just one hour!

Millions of questions have been asked by those with a lot of doubts or those desirous of Self-realization and yet the Gnani's answers are solidly on the target and cause the 'exactness to open up'; this gives evidence of Gnani's perfectly opened up Vision. To put it in His own words, "I answer by 'seeing' through the absolute Gnan ( _keval Gnan_ )" Besides, the Gnani has no ownership of speech. The 'taped record' is talking. If the 'self' were to speak, there will be mistakes, but how can there be a mistake in the 'original taped record'? He-the Gnani Purush remains the Knower-Seer ( _Gnata_ - _Drashta_ ) of the 'taped record'.

For those desirous of Self-realization and for the deeply curious, compiled in this book are hundreds of question-answers about attaining the Self, about the Self Itself, and about the universe. For the well-informed one living for the purpose of the Self, this clarifies the 'Eternal'- in his own language. But to bring into the vision and into experience the 'Eternal' - as it is \- can be attained only from the living Gnani Dadashri, who dwells in his absolute Self-state.

As it is, the deep discussions about Self-knowledge or about absolute Knowledge fail to result into illuminating a single phase of the light of one's own Self. Unless a living 'Gnani' is met with and the 'Gnani's Gnan is received, one prevails in the 'self' of only words. Whereas, if only a single word of the manifest Gnani is felt to pierce through the heart, infinite veils of faults are removed and the absolute Being ( _Paramatma_ ) that is illuminating the whole universe manifests verily within one's own Self! Only those who have known this unparalleled _siddhi_ (energy that accomplishes the ultimate) of this wonderful 'Gnani' know the beauty of that attainment! Or else, how can words enlighten one about the illumination of the Self, which is beyond words? Dadashri used to explain, "the person you see before you is not Dada Bhagwan; he is A. M. Patel. 'Dada Bhagwan' has manifest within A. M. Patel, Dada Bhagwan is the Lord of the fourteen worlds.! Ask for whatever you want, but you do not (even) know how to fill in that 'tender' (request)!' And this is a fact! Instead of asking for the domain of the whole universe, which He 'possesses', the unfortunate seeker fills out 'tenders' for material things. At that time if one could have read what was in the Gnani's heart, he would see a heart overflowing with infinite compassion!

The prevailing wrong beliefs about the Self, pushes one, millions of miles away from the absolute truth. If one fits the proper understanding about the Self, as given by the Gnani Purush who has Seen, Known and Experienced the Self, then even if he has not attained Self-Realization, he will be stopped from going in the wrong direction. Compiled in this book is Dadashri's Gnan about the Self form ( _swaroop_ ) and the nature of the world, in his own words, as Seen, Known and Experienced by Him. This, no doubt will be very useful to those moving forward on the spiritual path, to help them become the Self.

Gnani's speech comes out naturally dependent on the questioner and on the circumstances. If any shortcomings or deficiencies are seen in this compilation, they are because of the defect in compilation only and never in the words of the Gnani Purush . For that, our apologies and prayers!

Jai Sat Chit Anand

Dr. Niruben Amin

# PREFACE

Dr. Niruben Amin

## PART ONE

## What is the Soul? What is it like?

The subtlest and the deepest element in the universe, is the element that is the Self within ( _swaroop_ ); 'You' are 'that' (element); and because of the lack of understanding of 'that', many intuitive thoughts happen to thinkers, thoughts such as, 'is the Self like this, or is it like that, is it like an illumination (light)?, what type of illumination would it be like?' etc. The correct vision of the Self; the vision that is beyond any imagination, is seen by the Gnani Purush, who can help others attain that vision. For those who did not have the opportunity to meet with Him in person, this volume of His spoken-Knowledge ( _Gnan vani_ ) will show the true path and help the seeker progress further on that path.

To the Self is to know the _Atma._ That is the thing to be known.

The One who has Known, Seen, Experienced and permanently lived as the Self, in form that is beyond doubts or imagination about shape or form; have described the Self as being beyond form and formlessness ( _akruti_ or _nirakruti_ )! The state of the Self is independent ( _niralumb_ ) and illuminating ( _prakashak_ ) - where there is no existence of any dependency ( _niralumb_ ), be it place or time. The Gnani lives in such a Self (state). The Gnani's relative self is separate from the Self; his body is separate; the body complex conducts all worldly interactions, as a neighbor!

No one is an _nastik_ (without existence) in the world. There is the existence of the awareness of 'I am'. Everyone with that awareness is an _astik_ (one with existence). The Self is there with existence ( _astitva_ ). The Self ( _vastutva_ ) and finality ( _purnatva_ ) is unknown by the self. Every living being has awareness of their existence ( _astitva_ ), a rare person has the awareness of the Self ( _vastutva_ ) and finality ( _purnatva_ ) is the reward of knowing the Self. The awareness of Self is attained through the _bheda vignani_ , the Scientist of the 'Knowledge of separation'.

Giving assurance about the conviction ( _pratiti_ ) of the Self, the Gnani says that, just as the fragrance exposes the existence of the perfume, the Self - even though invisible ( _arupi_ ), is known by its inherent blissful quality. Infinite Knowledge ( _anant Gnan)_ , infinite Vision ( _anant Darshan_ ), infinite energy ( _anant Shakti_ ) and infinite bliss ( _anant_ _Sukha_ ) - these infinite qualities of the Self manifest within the self after the Self is unveiled in the Gnan Vidhi.

The difference between Self ( _Chetan_ ) and non-Self ( _jada_ ) is known by their attributes and phases ( _gunadharma_ ). Knowledge-Vision ( _Gnan_ - _Darshan_ ), to Know and to See is the attribute of the Self which is not there in any of the other eternal elements.

Those who have doubts about the existence of _jiva_ \- Self, are like those who say, 'there is no tongue in my mouth'- thus exposing the Self! The one who creates the doubt about the Self is the self only. How can the non-Self ( _jada_ ) have doubts?

It is the Self ( _jiva_ ) that has the knowledge of every ingredient in _Shrikhand_ (a sweet dish made from yogurt); even if a spoonful of it is placed in the mouth while one is sitting in the dark! It informs the nerves but the One who knows it, is the Self ( _jiva_ ). The one who remains as the desirer and seeker of bliss is itself the _jiva_ – the soul, the self.

Where there are feelings, there is the Self; where there are no feelings, the Self is not there. And yet, there are no feelings in the Self, it is the _pudgal_ (non-Self complex of intake and output) that has the feelings. That which moves, speaks, eats, drinks is not the Self but where there is any knowledge or any ignorance; any kindness or any feelings - the Self is present there.

The Self is spread all over within the whole body. Where pain is felt, the Self is there. There is no presence of the Self in overgrown nails and in hair. The heart is the abode of the gross mind ( _sthool_ _mun_ ) and the subtle mind ( _sukshma_ _mun_ ) is two and half inches deep behind the spot located between the two eyebrows.

Due to the nature of the Self, of shrinking or expansion ( _sankoch_ - _vikas_ ), whenever a part of the body is amputated or whenever anesthesia is given - the Self moves away from that part!

During the three phases of life (childhood, adulthood, old age), oh, even in the phases of infinite lifetimes of births-deaths, the Self always remains the same as the Self. Life after life, after being born, the Self has had to accompany the _pudgal_ (non-Self complex)! One becomes independent (free from this wandering) after the wrong belief (I am Chandulal) has gone away! Completely free!!! As a matter of fact, neither the non-Self complex has clung onto the Self, nor has the Self stuck to the non-Self complex! What the 'non-Self complex' means is that the _paramanu_ (subatomic particle) and the Self have come near each other circumstantially causing the 'special result' ( _vishesha_ _parinam_ ) which creates the _prakruti_ of ego anger, pride, deceit, greed and thus is born the worldly life! The main Self is completely inactive ( _akriya_ ). The non-Self-complex, is active ( _sakriya_ ) and because of ignorance, creates the illusion and of the doership of the self ( _atma_ ). This shackle of the _prakruti_ has imprisoned the absolure Self ( _Parmatma_ )! Nevertheless, where there is the imprisonment, there is also the _moksha_. There is bondage because of ignorance ( _agnan_ ), and illusion and with the Knowledge of the Self, there is liberaton! When the illusion about the doer-ship and about the Self are removed, then one is not the doer of any _karma_ ; there is the eternal awareness of, 'I am the absolute Self ( _Paramatma_ )' and one becomes completely independent in every way.

The root cause of birth and death is ignorance ( _agnan_ ) and Knowledge of the Self (Gnan) is what imparts _moksha_ ; the cycle of birth and death happens to the ego, the attainment of another birth is dependent on 'scientific circumstantial evidences'; no one is independent there - not even God!

The intent 'I am Chandulal' ( _aropit bhaav_ ) and 'this world is mine' ( _sansari bhaav_ ), the causal body ( _karan sharira_ ) is created; afterwards, the other 'parliamentary members' (the inner working component comprised of the mind, intellect, chit and ego) gather around and bring about the 'result'; thus, the 'effect body' is made. After making the resolution in the parliament, the members depart! Left behind are the resolutions, and one by one, these resolutions take shape!

When the Self departs from the physical body, accompanying the Self are the subtle body, the causal body with anger, pride, deceit, greed. The causal body becomes the effective body in the next life. As long as there is the balance of _karma_ , the electrical body accompanies (that is to say- it stays with) the Self for the entire life and stays with the Self until _moksha_ is attained!

There is definitely no independence of the self in the 'discharge' (of _karma_ ), but even in 'charging' _karma_ , there is no independent power of the self. New charging of _karma_ happens as a result of a push from the 'discharge' of past _karma_ \- this is due to ignorance. The charging of _karma_ , in the previous life, is in the form of an arranged plan; this plan takes shape in this life resulting in the 'discharge' form. Change is possible only while it is in the stage of planning (during the _karma_ causing phase). Change is impossible once it has come into the result (effect) stage. The changes made in this life bear fruit in the next life and when the planning stops altogether, the final _moksha_ is attained!

From a single sense organism to the human state, it is true as described in 'the theory of evolution', however, after coming in the human state, the ego raises its head and as a 'doer' and one collects credit and debit _karma_ ( _punyai_ and _paap_ , respectively). The tendencies ( _vruti_ ) that had prevailed throughout the human life will open up the doors to one of the four life forms (transmigration of birth in the animal, human, infernal or celestial world). Once the human state is attained, one may wander around in other places of birth ( _yoni_ ), at the most, for eight lifetimes to pay off the account of _karma_ and then return to the human form. This wandering around can be stopped only after Self-realization ( _Atmagnan_ ). After attaining Self-realization, the flow is in an orderly sequence ( _krambaddha_ ). If it does not happen in an orderly sequence, will it not be counted as being under the effect of destiny ( _niyati_ ) ? The timing for the self to come to a human state for the first time is predetermined but complications arise as a result of the ego's rise in the human state, causing the wandering in the four life states (of human, animal, infernal and celestial). Under the pressure of any circumstances, if one can turn the ego in the direction of liberation, liberation can be attained but it is not so easy to abolish the ego; hence, the timing to get _moksha_ after attaining human form is undetermined. The timing for _moksha_ is determined only after getting the right vision ( _samyak drashti_ ). But here, one flows towards the worldly life by conducting self according to the worldly knowledge. After meeting a 'Gnani Purush', if one conducts according to the Gnani's Knowledge, _moksha_ can be attained!

When the sun is around, a shadow happens; when a mirror is around, reflection happens; how much doer-ship is there of the sun or the mirror here? After seeing the shadow or the reflection, there happens a change in the 'belief' as to 'what is this that is happening to me?' Because this wrong belief has set in, the ego and intellect are created and on the basis of these, there prevails the bondage of the self ( _prakruti_ ). It is the original light that illuminates the ego and the intellect, these, in turn light up the self and vanished is the awareness of the original light and because of this illusion, the original light got covered up! And believing the gestures of the non-Self complex, as one's own gestures, the 'self' prevailed as the non-Self and thus the 'Self' relinquished the status of 'absolute Self'! This is synonymous to a real sparrow pecking away at it's own reflection in the mirror believing it to be another sparrow! What an entrapment! What an entrapment of absolute Self within the circumstances! Nevertheless, the absolute Self has verily remained unobstructed as the Self in the three (past, present and future) time phases.

The knowledge phase of Self has become of the self (non-Self), it has become _vibhavik_ due to circumstantial pressure. The main Self has not become so. In this altered state, the non-Self complex ( _pudgal_ ) also becomes what is imagined. As a result, mind, speech and body were created and are trapped in 'scientific circumstantial evidences'! And for that reason only, the circumstances where by one comes in contact with the Knower of this deepest science, the Gnani Purush, attains the vision the Self, the original light, and becomes completely liberated. This is similar to the example of Gajasukumar whose father-in-law placed a small kiln of burning coals on his head (as he sat in meditation) and at that time Gajasukumar remained in the original light as shown to him by Lord Niminath and saw in his Gnan that 'this circumstance is a _gneya_ (thing to be known)' and consequently he attained _moksha_!

The wrong belief that veils the Self, leads to doership and attachment-abhorrence ( _raag_ - _dwesh_ ), and thus the three 'batteries' of the mind, speech and body are 'charged' for the next life and the three old batteries continue to discharge. When the right belief sets in as a result of the grace of the Gnani, the one attains _moksha_!

To dispose off the doubts and uncertainty of the views regarding the beginning or the end of the Self, Gnanis have called the Self as _anadi-anant_ \- without beginning and without end! In an eternal element, how can there be a beginning or an end or a change? Where does a circle begin?

How can something get created when it has no beginning? Actually, both the creation and the creator (maker) are both perishable (temporary).

All the elements, the universe itself, function according to their natural qualities; as a result, in the ever-flowing path of worldly evolution ( _samsaran_ _marg_ , the existing universe), the intactness of the worldly life (universal balance) is maintained by entry into the manifested state ( _vyahavar_ _rashi_ ) of the same number of embodied souls that go to _Siddhakshetra_ (place where all liberated Souls reside). If only one embodied soul is missing, the nature's planning breaks down and then there may be the absence of moon today or of the sun tomorrow!

The limit of the increase or decrease in the population cannot go beyond the nature's law of the constant!

The Self, by It's nature is going towards final liberation, if there is no obstruction on the way! Light weight _paramanus_ (subatomic particle) are grasped as a result of auspicious thoughts causing the upward motion of the Self and grasping of the heavy and heaviest _paramanus_ causes one to go down all the way up to the plant-stage where, by entering in to a state of a coconut tree, mango tree or berry tree, one gives sweet fruits to people and pays for doing fraud (deceit) in the previous life and thus gets freed from the debt _karma_! And in the end, after becoming pure Self and then, by remaining as the Self and by settling off all the _pudgal_ 's (the self, non-Self) circumstances; one can go to _moksha_. In these scientific laws, there is no one that has independent control or authority whatsoever!

The individual differences that appear in this world are because of illusion ( _bhranti_ ) and because of seeing it with level of the intellect! There is oneness as a result of seeing from the center with the vision of the original element and that is the vision of the absolute Self ( _Paramatma_ )!

The Gnani speaks after seeing 'as it is'. He will not say 'it is not' when 'it is' and he will not say 'it is' when 'it is not'. Regarding the attributes of the eternal element, the _Vitarags_ have described origin ( _utpaad_ ), end ( _vyaya_ ) and steady-state ( _dhruva_ ), wherein, to originate and to end are the phases of the element and to remain in the steady-state is the attribute ( _guna_ ) of the element. In the symbolic representation of these, people have projected _Brahma_ as being the originator (origin), _Vishnu_ as the sustainer (steady-state) and _Mahesh_ as the destroyer (death) and have created their idols!! Oh! Even the idols of the _Bhagvad Gita_ and _Gayatri_ have been created. Instead of understanding the subtlest inner intent as told by Lord Shri Krishna in the _Bhagvad Gita_ , people worship symbolic form of a physical idol! They get satisfaction in the statue and not in the chanting of the _Gayatri Mantra_ itself! The scientific inner intent of the matter is forgotten altogether; it is grossly misunderstood.

The statues of _Brahma_ , _Vishnu_ and _Mahesh_ were placed as a symbols to represent the three _gunas_ (attributes) of _satva_ (pious virtues), _rajas_ (energy filled worldly activities) and _tamas_ (darkness) attributes respectively. It is best to turn around and return to one's own home instead of getting lost in the side streets of the truth about symbols! To the people going full force in the wrong direction, Gnani turns them towards the right direction and He does this with the intent of simply being instrumental in the process ( _nimit_ ) and not with a sense of doer-ship!

The research of truth can be done only if one remains free of insistence ( _niragrahata_ ). Insistence ( _agraha_ ) is ego! 'I am Chandulal, I am his paternal uncle, I am her maternal uncle...' etc., these 'relative' truths has been proven untrue in the 'real.'

The Gnani always 'opens it up' as it is. If someone does not accept it, the Gnani does not sit with him at his doorstep to prove His statements to be correct. He says, 'You are correct by your viewpoint', and He becomes free! Where there is no insistence about one's absolute truth, there is illuminated a complete state of _Vitaragata_ (a state free from attachment and abhorrence)!

If ignorance is known, the Knowledge that is there at the other shore shall be found. If the Self (the _Atma_ ) is known, _pudgal_ (the self) shall be known and if _pudgal_ is known, the Self shall be understood (known). The _Vedantis_ (students of _Vedas_ -Hindu scriptures) engaged themselves in fathoming the end of _pudgal_ and stopped there and said, ' _Neti...neti...(_ this is not that...this is not that...!)! The Knowers of the absolute Self ( _keval Gnanis_ ) , at first attained the Self and got _moksha_ by saying that what is the restis all _pudgal_ , the non-Self. Actually, the knowledge of the Self is not to be known through intellect. One has to become aware of the Self. Nothing can be attained from knowing the Self that is in just word form.

While describing one-ness (a state of no separation from the Self, _abhedata_ ), the _Vedas_ create a divisive intellect; _abhedata_ can result only by attaining a state where there is absence of intellect ( _abuddhata_ ). The Gnani Purush has said that the _Vedas_ are 'theoretical' and science is 'practical'. _Vedas_ have the intellect-mediated knowledge, this knowledge is 'indirect' light and Knowledge (Gnan) is the 'direct' light! The Gnani has reached where the _Vedas_ could not reach! The four _Vedas_ , the four _Anuyogas_ (Jain scriptures) point out the element that is Self but they cannot make one attain it. The knowledge attained through listening ( _shrut gnan_ ) can purify the _chit_ and can make one most worthy for Gnan (Self-realization). The realization of the main element (the Self) can be imparted as a result of the uncommon cause – the Gnani Purush, and by His subtle association with the absolute! Here, how can the word form of _Vedas_ describe the indescribable Self; the Self that is beyond words? _Vedas_ are in the form of knowledge and the Knower is in the form of science! Science is effective by itself; knowledge is not! The Knower knows the _Vedas_ ; the _Vedas_ do not know the Knower. All the philosophies and all the philosophical doctrines and all the views are the same and yet they are different. The stair is the same but all the steps are different! Lord Krishna too, called the _Vedas_ as the description of three _Gunas_ ( _satva_ , _rajas_ and _tamas_ ) and told Arjuna to go beyond the _Vedas_ to attain the Self!

_Vedanta_ raises the level of intellect but Self-realization can be attained by both the paths; _Vedanta_ and _Jainism_.

Self is neither dualistic ( _dvaita_ ) nor non-dualistic ( _advaita_ )! Self is dual-non-dual ( _dvaita_ - _advaita_ )! Dual and non-dual are both _vikalp_ (ego-centric view), whereas the Self is _nirvikalp_ (as ego-free). Dual and non-dual are both two sided ( _dwandwa_ ), the Self is beyond _dwandwa_ ( _dwandwatita_ ). As long as the effects of the worldly life are there, "I am _advaita-_ (non-dual)" cannot be believed. Non-dual state is not without base nor is it without relative effect; it is in relation to dualism. By 'relative viewpoint' the self is dualistic and by the 'real viewpoint', the Self is non-dual! Therefore, Gnani's have called the Self as 'dual-non-dual ( _dwaitadwaita_ ). The 'Self' is non-dual and self is dual. Non-dual is described only to keep maintain applied awareness as the Self. As long as the body and the absolute Knowledge are both there; there is dual-non-dual; in the final _moksha_ , no adjective applies at all. Non-dual itself is an adjective.

Is this world an illusion ( _mithya_ )? If the tooth is aching, is that pain going to remain as an illusion if you spend the whole night saying, 'it is an illusion'? Why don't people who believe the world to be an illusion, throw away their money or their beloved things? Neither is the world an illusion nor is the Self ( _Brahma_ ) an illusion. The world is a 'relative' truth and _Brahma_ (the Self) is the 'real' truth. _Maya_ , (illusion) is that which does not allow one to understand the original element (the Self) in the proper way.

The knowledge of Brahma (the Self) is a door that one enters to attain full Self-knowledge ( _Atmagnan_ ). Religious practices can give focused concentration ( _ekagrata_ ), but not the attainment of Self ( _swaroop_ ). The Self is attained only by knowledge of the Self. When faith in temporary worldly things is removed and placed in the eternal _Brahma_ (Self), and when one settles in Self-faith ( _Atma nistha_ ); that is called as _Brahma_ Knowledge ( _Brahma Gnan_ ). And the person with Self-faith ( _Atma_ - _nishtha_ ) is called as absolute Self ( _Paramatma_ )! A person with Self-faith ( _Atma_ - _nishtha_ ) is intellect-free and the intellect has remained present in a person with _Brahma_ -faith ( _brahma_ - _nishtha_ )!

The word- _Brahma_ ( _shabdabrahma_ ), the tune- _Brahma_ ( _naadbrahma_ ) are 'flag' stations on the way to the 'terminus'; they may, at best, keep one in a state of concentration. Concentration is the beginning of spirituality; however the Self is countless miles away from it! Word is not eternal but it is a thing created as a result of a combination of two or three things; it is unnatural. Yet the word that imparts the experience is the true word but in the end the dependency of that word is left behind and a state of independence ( _niralumb_ ) is attained.

After attaining a state of being one with _Brahma_ , the awareness perfection and pure Self is seen in every living being. In " _Aham_ _Brahmasmi_ (I am _Brahma_ )" there is ego of one's own self. This ego means one projects or makes the allegation (through wrong belief) of 'I am', where the 'I am' is not. The result of attaining _Brahma_ is a constant experience of the absolute bliss of the Self ( _swa_ - _samvedan_ )! This state is similar to that of King Janak Videhi! In all circumstances of worldly life, there is the experience of absolute non-association ( _asangata_ ).

In order to attain a state of _Brahma_ , one fruitlessly attempts to remove passions-obstructions or attachment-abhorrence from one life to the next! And yet _agnan_ (ignorance of Self), the 'root cause' creating obstruction in attaining _Brahma_ , is not removed by anyone except the 'Gnani Purush'! What covers up the Self is ignorance, not ego!

What is it like to have the awakened inner vision of Gnan? In the first vision, women and men are seen as 'complete' 'naked'. In the second 'vision' the bodies is seen without skin and in the third 'vision', is seen the cut up bodies with exposed intestines, meat and bones!!! And in the end is seen the _Brahamswaroop_ – the Self- _Brahma_ in all! After that will there be any attachment-abhorrence?

In every lives being is the element of Self ( _Chetan_ ), which by nature, is one and same but not same by individuality of eternal existence ( _dravya_ ), every Self is different by _dravya_ and (every Self) is completely independent. If all Souls were one, shouldn't all Souls go to final _moksha_ when Ramchandraji went to final _moksha_?! Can _Brahma_ get a desire such as 'I am one in many' ( _Ekoham_ _Bahushyam_ )?

The Self does not dissolve in the absolute Self at all. In the process of dissolving, why should each Self relinquish its perfect Self, its own independence and sacrifice into other? Gnanis do the complete _darshan_ of the completely wholesome and independent absolute Self residing in each and every being! If Souls were all one, why should one have pain while Lord rama in the _Siddha_ State is enjoying the bliss of final _moksha_? If any soul was the expressed part of a supreme Being absolute Self ( _Paramatma_ ), there should be no pain felt at all, no?

By real view-point the Self is formless ( _nirakari_ ) and by relative view-point the Self has form ( _saakar_ ). In the state of final _moksha_ , the Self decreases by 1/3 the size of the _charam_ _sharira_ (the last body the soul occupies before ascending to _moksha_ ) and remains as two third of its shape, in spite of having the natural property of being formless ( _nirakari_ )! In the beginning, the worship of formless God is done by worshipping the manifest Gnani Purush who is called as God with form ( _sakari_ _bhagwan_ ) and as a result of this, the formless God can be known!

How can one call the Self as being free of attributes ( _nirguna_ ), when infinite attributes like infinite knowledge, infinite vision, infinite bliss and infinite energy are its attributes? Oh! Here, the Self is itself the absolute Self ( _Paramatma_ )! By saying the _Paramatma_ as being free of attributes doesn't one become devoid forever of the devotion of its infinite attributes? And thus unable to attain those attributes? The attainment of absolute Self can only happen by worshipping Its attributes, no? The Self is devoid of attributes in regards to the attributes of the self ( _prakruti_ ) and is completely filled with Its own attributes. Not a single attribute of the self has entered into the Self and not a single attribute of the Self has entered into the self ( _prakruti_ ). The Self has never become a compound with the attributes of the _prakruti_ and has remained separate forever!

Self is not full of knowledge but is Knowledge itself ( _Gnan swaroop_ ). It is the form of 'light' ( _prakash swaroop_ ) and it is on the basis of this light, that one is able to see all the _gneyas_ all that is known and _drashya_ , that which is seen.

The Self is omnipresent; in what reference is this so?

The illumination of Self is omnipresent ( _sarva_ _vyapi_ ) and the Self is not! The light of this electric bulb illuminates the whole room; the light is in its own place. Only in the last life, in the final body when the Self becomes the absolute Self, It becomes completely uncovered ( _niravarano_ ) and enters the state of final _moksha_ ( _Sidaha pada_ ), that is when then the entire universe becomes known ( _prameya_ ); the illumination of absolute Self spreads all over the universe. The amazing thing is that there is there is no decrease in the intensity of this illumination. If God is everywhere, in every particle, then where is the need to find Him? Does the Self within us go anywhere to spread? Thus, the Self is omnipresent, not in its Self form ( _Chetan_ - _roopey_ ) but in it is attributes ( _swabhav_ - _rupey_ )!

God is present as light (illumination _prakash rupey_ ) in every creature ( _jiva_ – living being). But when a _jiva_ becomes capable of looking within, one can visualize God within all, with the divine vision ( _divyachakshu_ ). God is in creature, not in (man-made) creation. But He is covered up. The knowledge opens up in the direction of that portion that is uncovered and this knowledge develops one into being a lawyer or a doctor in worldly life. A single Self has the energy to illuminate the entire universe; if One attains the state that is completely free of particles of _karma_!

'The absolute Self ( _Paramatma_ ) is complete and I am a part of Him'- to remove this misplaced belief, the Gnani opens up the unfailing understanding that Souls are infinite in numbers and each Soul is independent. That which has form, can be broken into parts, how can that which is formless, be broken down into pieces! After being a part, how can it join back and become one again? Can God be broken down into pieces? The sun cannot become a ray and a ray can never become the sun. An eternal element is always indivisible. By whatever degree the coverings of ignorance are removed, a corresponding proportion of light of the Self comes to be revealed. When the coverings of all the _pradesho_ (regions over the Self) are removed, absolute Self illuminates the entire universe.

## PART: TWO

## WHO AM I? HOW TO KNOW THIS?

_Atma-Paramatma, Brahma-Parbrahma, Jiva-Shiva, Ishwar-Parmeshwar_ (Self- absoluteSelf); these are all phase describing words. When the phase changes, the state is felt to change, yet the original element does not change. Because of change in the circumstance, one is a husband at home, a boss at the shop and a lawyer when in court. But 'he' is the same everywhere.

What is the difference between _jiva_ - _Shiva_? One is the Self ( _Shiva_ ) himself but because of illusion ( _bhranti_ ), he believes himself to be the self ( _jiva_ ; a mortal). When this illusion is broken down, the separation of _jiva_ and _Shiva_ breaks down, the embodied self ( _jiva_ ) and pure Self ( _Shiva_ ) become one and the same.

The self ( _jiva_ ) undergoes cycles of birth-death as long as there is the belief that the worldly life is one's own! The one whose life and death cycle have ceased is the Self ( _Shiva_ – Self-realized, immortal). The embodied self is with _karma_ and the Self is without _karma_. But the Self is same in both! The doer-sufferer is the self and the non-doer and non-sufferer is Self! The difference exists as long as there is the separation of 'You are God and I am your devotee!' There is no separation when the awareness of 'I am the absolute Self only' happens and after that one becomes _Vitarag_ (absolutely free from attachment and abhorrence). Free of fear ( _nirbhaya_ ) And one becomes absolutely liberated ( _maha_ _mukta_ )

God ( _Ishwar_ ) and absolute God ( _Parmeshwar_ ); here, God ( _Ishwar_ ) is with attachment-abhorrence, with the ego of doer-ship, with illusory attachment ( _moorchha_ ) for temporary things and absolute God ( _Parmeshwar_ ) is _vitarag_ , non-doer, the worshipper only of its own eternal state! Yet the state of God is a sacred state ( _vibhuti_ - _swaroop_ )! The end of adverse meditation that hurts the self ( _artadhyan_ ) and adverse mediatation that hurts the self and others ( _raudradhyan_ ) is the first link to _vitaragata_.

There is no objection in saying, 'I am Chandulal', but that belief should not prevail.

The identification of the 'milestones' on the way to attaining the absolute Self state ( _Paramatma_ _dasha_ ), gives the traveler complete security about the path.

As long as there is the desire for worldly pleasures and the tendencies ( _vruttis_ ) wander around in search of worldly pleasures, one is the outwardly-soul ( _bahirmukhi_ - _atma_ ) or ignorant-soul ( _moodha_ _atma_ ). In the ignorant state, the self has only the awareness of existence ( _astitva_ ); every attachment of the non-Self-complex is believed to be of the self; that is the first sign. In the second sign, when he comes into a state of the inner Self ( _antaratma_ _dasha_ ) from the state of ignorance, the tendencies that were wandering outwardly; return to one's own home ( the Self). When the 'Gnani Purush', through the intent of being merely instrumental in the process, gives the conviction to the ignorant self that 'the non-Self complex's attachments are not Yours, You are only the absolute Self'; then the conviction, the state of 'I am' becomes one with the absolute Self for the first time. Now, not only is the awareness of the Self's existence ( _astitva_ ) is known but also its elemental nature ( _vastutva_ ) comes to be known. This is the establishment of the state of the inner Self i.e. the 'interim government'.

Two jobs are done by the 'interim government'; when worldly interactions happen, they are to be settled off with equanimity using the applied awareness of being the Self and in free time, to remain as the Self. While in this state of Self, one becomes independent up to a certain degree and remains dependent up to a certain degree. Yet, the progress towards the state of absolute Self is going on; it does go forward (onward). By attaining the Knowledge and Vision of the Gnani Purush, who is in the absolute Self state all the time, one has attained the state of inner Self or the awakened Self. After that, the inner Self sees the absolute Self and one attains that state of absolute Self! becomes One with the experience that, 'I am the absolute Self'. As a result of this knowledge base, and by worshipping this Self, perfection ( _poornatva_ \- completion to final stage) is easily attained. And when the worldly life is completely settled off, there happens 'full government', that is when One becomes the complete absolute Self – _Paramatma_.

In the absolute state, the Self is the absolute Self only. As long as there is support from the word-form (of ' _Shuddhatma_ '), one is the inner Self ( _antar_ - _atma_ ) and in the illusion and wrong belief state, he is the ignorant self ( _moodha-atma_ ). _Hoon-bavo-Mangadas_ ('I', the _bavo_ , Mangaldas: I = the absolute Self and _Pragna_ , the direct energies of the awakened Self. _Bavo_ = the ego and all the wrong beliefs and Mangaldas = the physical body and mind). He is one and the same 'I' in all three! The One who has become complete _vitarag_ is the absolute Self ( _Paramatma_ )! The One who has the vision to become a _vitarag_ is the inner Self ( _antar-atma_ ) and the one who gets engrossed in the worldly pleasures and attachment-abhorrence is the ignorant self ( _moodha-atma_ ).

Those who have attained the final _moksha_ , every one of those Souls ( _Siddhatma_ ), residing in the liberated plane ( _Siddhakshetra_ ) are in their own individual, independent, natural, blissful state! There is neither a superior nor an underhand there! In their nature, all liberated Souls are same - in the state of Knowing-Seeing ( _Gnan_ - _Darshan_ ). There is no _charitra_ (conduct) there. There is activity nor is there _pudgal parmanu_ (particles of non-Self complex). It ( _Siddhakshetra_ ) is located at the edge of the _brahmand_ (universe). There is no effect of one over the other or with each other there and in the same token there is no effect from them towards other planes (places, locations). Liberated Souls don't help us at all; it is only because our goal is to reach there, that we worship their state as ' _Namo Siddhanam_ \- I bow to the liberated absolute Souls'!

If this light (electrical light overhead) were the Self ( _chetan_ ), it will continue to 'see' all the things in the room! Similarly, absolute Self 'sees' (illuminates) every _gneya_ (that which is to be known and seen) in the universe!

_Moksha_ means to attain the final state of attributes of the Self, to attain the result of the natural state of the Self, to remain in the natural bliss of the Self eternally!

Who gets _moksha_? The one who is bound gets the _moksha_. Who is bound? The one who has the suffering is bound. Who has the suffering? The ego! The intention (desire) to attain _moksha_ is of the one, who is bound, not of the Self. The Self is verily free; it is neither the doer nor the sufferer. Only the ego is searching for _moksha_. Ego goes out in search of _moksha_ when there is no taste (when it no longer finds joy) in the worldly life at all.

The true purpose of life must be to attain _moksha_. If that purpose is extremely strong, one will surely attain it. What obstructs this purpose is _moha_ (illusory attachment). After departure of _moha_ there is weariness for the worldly life and the search for the path to _moksha_ begins.

It is necessary to have a state of thinking continuously about the Self until the state of Self is attained, that too the thoughts should be only for the Knowledge of the Self and without interruption ( _Gnan ankshepakvant_ ); they help to attain the state of Self, after this happens the state of _moksha_ beyond thoughts is attained! The self-observation that happens in the ignorant state is done with the ego and the Self is beyond the ego!

After every _paramanu_ (subatomic particle) of anger, pride, deceit, greed is purified and after the ego has attained complete purification, the ego unifies with the pure Self; such is the _kramik_ path (the traditional step-by-step path to Self-realization) whereas, in 'Akram (direct stepless) path', the 'Gnani Purush' imparts one with the attainment of pure Self status directly; this pure Self state is steady ( _achad_ ), original ( _darasal_ ) and unsmearable ( _nirleyp_ ).

One's own self-form is pure Self and not the body, when this is realized the belief of, 'I am the body'- is gone; the ego ( _ahamkar_ ) and my-ness ( _mamata_ ) are gone. A person with _dehadhyas_ ('I am this body') cannot free others from _dehadhyas_. The 'Gnani Purush' who is free from _dehadhyas_ can give _moksha_.

_Dehadhyas_ is the prevailing experience that 'I am this body, mind, speech' etc., and after Self-realization this experience is gone and there prevails the experience of the Self. What gets engrossed with the body is not the original Self but it is the believed self, i.e. the worldly interacting self ( _vyavahar-atma_ ).

'This is wrong of you', the one that speaks thus within, is not the Self but is the tape record based on the worldly knowledge one had known; that (tape) is speaking! All these- the eyes (camera), ears (receiver), speech (tape record), mind (machine's head) as well as eating, drinking, talking, walking - all of it, is 'mechanical'.

To those who believe, 'I am a sinner', or 'I am a person practicing penance' or 'I am a scholar of the scriptures' etc., or to those who perform temple rituals, religious contemplation, chanting, penance etc; all these actions are done by the 'mechanical self'- says the Gnani Purush. What the world believes as the Self, what the world tries to make steady is constantly in motion ( _sachar_ ) is the 'mechanical self' and the main exact Self is steady ( _achar_ ) and has the attribute of the Knower. This belief is fundamentally mistaken. Trying to find the steady Self while in the unsteady state, one will only get the unsteady self! The world is trying to make steady the 'mechanical self' which itself is unsteady ( _chanchad_ ) and active ( _kriyasheel_ ), so how can that be done? Only the vision towards the steady, imparts a natural steady state. Who but the 'Gnani' can make one understand this vision, this fact that the 'mechanical self' and 'absolute Self' are different by their natural characteristics; and impart the knowledge of that separation? The original Self is in the form of absolute knowledge ( _keval_ _Gnan_ ), in the form of absolute illumination ( _keval_ _Prakash_ ); is fully filled with infinite attributes, with infinite Knowledge ( _anant_ _Gnan_ ), infinite Vision ( _anant_ _Darshan_ ) and infinite bliss ( _anant_ _sukha_ ).

That which dwells in the worldly life cannot be the original Self; it is attachment-abhorrence. As long as there is the prevalence of results of _karma_ giving effect, there will be no attainment of the pure Self!

The illusory energy has arisen as a result of contact with the Self ( _Chetan_ ), this energy is the illusory self. _Nischetan-chetan_ (Selfless self) means that all the outward attributes of _chetan_ appear to be there but the Self ( _chetan_ ) is, quite truly, not there. The original Self is within one's self and there is a layer of 'Self-less self' over it; it is called to be the same as 'mechanical self'!

What the original word of Gnani ' _nischetan_ _chetan_ ' indicates is that one starts to become _mishra chetan_ (mixed self) when one starts to become engrossed in the existing circumstances. This (results in charging of _karma_ ) which matures in the next life and gives result; when this discharge process starts, it is known as 'mechanical self'!

"Real Self" and "relative self" are identified by eternal and non-eternal attributes respectively. Until the 'real' is 'realized', the 'relative self is believed to be the 'real Self'- this is because of illusion ( _bhranti_ )! This illusion is created by scientific reasons only. This knower under the illusion is also the doer and interacts in the world as a single entity of eternal and non-eternal mixed. When the Gnani Purush breaks down this illusion and draws the line of demarcation between what is 'real' and what is 'relative', one attains the vision of the Self ( _Atma-darshan_ ), which is concealed from awareness before the realization and compared to this there is no other wonderful vision! After that, one remains in the state of _kshetragnya_ (knower of the location, field or plain; One's original place) and knows every action in the non-Self field. If the Knower state of the Self ( _kshetragnya_ ) is missed, one will get engrossed in non-Self-field and becomes that ( _kshetrakaar_ ). Only the 'permanent' can call 'temporary' as 'temporary'; one is already the 'permanent' but only if the awareness of Knowledge of the permanent arises!

The reason why everyone's individuality appears different is every individual is dependent on matter ( _dravya_ ), field, place or location ( _kshetra_ ), time ( _kaad_ ) and intention ( _bhav_ ) But here, when the place changes, when one person comes in to the other person's place, the time changes and as a result, the intention will have changed and the matter too will be different! In spite of changes in all the outside circumstances, the state of the Self does not change at all. The Self is pure in all three times (past, present, and future), it is only because of the covering of _karma_ that the Self gets obstructed from coming into vision. Once the vision is purified, there is no place for impurity; as long as there is ego, there is reason for wrong vision. Yet, the real Self has remained indifferent and in pure form all throughout these changes and the phases ( _paryaya_ ) of the Self have remained pure too. The relative self has good-auspicious and bad-hurtful phases. The insistence on truth in worldly life will recreate the relative self. One is to make the worldly life interaction good and helpful when 'Gnani' is not met with and if 'Gnani' is met with, one is to purify the worldly life interaction ( _vyavahar_ )! When in worldly interactions, one is a relative self and when 'one' is in the 'real', one is the 'real Self'! But, in all the states 'the Self' is 'one and the same'.

What is the origin ( _adhishthan_ ) of the world? Dadashri has disclosed this in the 'exact' way. The origin of the world is the 'relative self' ( _pratishtit_ _atma_ )! The real Self has remained here in complete non-doer ( _akarta_ _bhavey_ ) and indifferent ( _udaseen_ _bhavey_ ) state. The world has been created only because of the obstruction to the energy of vision and because of the creation of wrong vision ( _vibhavik_ _drashti_ )!

Pure Self is the main Self ( _Nischaya_ _Atma_ ) and the relative self ( _pratishthit_ _atma_ ) is the self in the worldly interactions (the doer-self); because of the installed wrong belief of 'I am Chandulal...his maternal uncle...his paternal uncle' etc.; the installed image ( _pratishthit_ _self_ ) was created and this goes on giving results. While getting results, re-installation of new charged _karma_ is done (due to prevailing wrong belief about the Self) and thus, the cycle goes on.

While under the influence of alcohol, a man forgets the self and says, 'I am the king'; similarly, under the influence of ego, one says things like, 'I am Chandulal...I am her husband, I am his father, etc.'! In reality One is the absolute Self only, the master of the fourteen worlds (planes), but because of wrong belief, he becomes the husband of the wife and loses his status. When the Gnani Purush imparts him with the realization of the Self and un-roots his ego, and when all previous illusory effects get erased, he attains the perfect state! Otherwise, as long as there is ego, one sees with the vision of the intellect and believes the self to be the doer-sufferer ( _karta_ - _bhokta_ ). By seeing with Knowledge, 'I am not doing anything' gets fitted. If wrong belief gets evaporated, One can 'see' as it is. The reason for the origin of the worldly life and for the birth of _prakruti_ relative self is due only to the change in 'belief'! The original Self has remained unassociated ( _asanga_ ) and unanointed ( _nirlyep_ ) forever!

The relative self arises as a result of 'scientific circumstantial evidence.' There is no doer-ship of anyone there. The relative self is 'effective' and its effect happens to the 'self' but this happens only as long as the wrong belief is there!

Right belief cuts off (removes) the wrong belief and the right belief cuts itself off naturally; and this is the wonderful research on the absolute Self done by the contemporary Gnani Purush, to help get final _moksha_ in this _Kaliyuga_ – the current era of the time cycle. If one prevails in the right belief, One is within domain of the Self and if one prevails in the wrong belief, one is within the domain of the non-self. Illusory vision shows everything in the wrong way. When one meets with Gnani Purush and listens to His _satsang_ , the vision starts to get corrected or else one should change the vision by praying to the 'Gnani Purush'. Once the vision changes, He starts to become a God.

There is a place for the truth and the untruth in the auspicious-helpful ( _shubha_ ) and inauspicious-hurtful ( _ashubha_ ) religions. There is attachment for the truth and hatred for the untruth; this is the method of attainment there. There is no place for that in the pure religion, in the religion of the Self. The religion of the Self is about being beyond attachment-abhorrence; it is about _vitaragata_ (absolute absence of attachment and abhorrence). Attachment and abhorrence happen due to a poisoned vision. The Gnani Purush turns the vision that was facing towards temporary things, to the vision of the permanent. He changes the direction of the vision. Then, 'I am in all that lives" ( _Atmavat_ _sarva_ _bhuteshu_ ) arises.

Self-realization ( _Atma_ _sakshatkaar_ ) and experience of the Self ( _Atma_ - _anubhav_ ) are quite different, experience is the final stage and it is permanent; with Self-realization only the conviction ( _pratiti_ ) has set in. After the experience of the Self one comes in a stage of Conduct ( _Charitra_ ), that is prevailing as the Self.

Self is invisible ( _arupi_ ) and the One who realizes is also invisible by nature, so the nature blends in the nature and the tendencies of the Chit ( _vruttis_ ) return to the home, the Self.

'What is the Self' and 'what is not the Self'; when one knows both these, one is said to have known the Self. While in the ignorant stage, it can't be said by anyone that the 'Self is pure perfect knowledge' ( _shuddha-buddha_ ); at the most, one can say that in reference to the non-Self he is impure and with respect to the Self, he is pure.

The bliss of Self, is such that once it is experienced, it never leaves. It is the pleasure-joy of the mind that leaves. It is impossible to experience the Self as long as the _chit_ is involved in _kashays_ (anger, pride, deceit, greed). A state of eternal bliss is verily the experience of the Self.

The Gnani gives the awareness that worries and anger happen in the non-Self and not in the Self; after this, there sets in a strong conviction that nothing can happen to the Self.

After attaining the Self in the 'exact' manner, only the discharge _karma_ remains; (in that state) there is _samvar purvak_ _nirjara_ , i.e. there is discharge and settlement of _karma_ without new charging; thereafter there is no new binding of _karma_.

How far does the domain and authority of _karma_ reach? The domian is there as long as there is a support for it; once that support is removed, _karma_ becomes 'neutral'. The way in which the support is given is when _karma_ arises to give result, due to ignorance one says, 'I did this.' In spite of doing all the activity of worldly life, the Gnani Purush remains as the Self, with the unflinching awareness of 'I am not the doer of anything', whereas the _agnani_ (one without Self-realization) is never outside of the awareness of 'I am the doer', even for one second!

"He who knows the Self has known everything". He who has known the Self is called as causal absolute Gnani ( _karan_ _keval Gnani_ – creating causes to become absolute Self); he is called as the One who is the Knower of all elements in cause ( _karan_ _sarvagnya_ )! The one with absolute Knowledge is without insistence ( _niragrahi_ ) and without ego ( _nirahamkari_ ).

Nothing is gained by singing 'I am not the body, I am not the body; I am the Self, I am the Self'. Here, one has to have the experience of the Self. Till today, all practices performed for Self-knowledge became binding to the one doing them. Real instrument and means ( _sadhan_ ) to attain the Self means one attains the grace of the visible, manifest 'Gnani Purush' and then only can _moksha_ be attained! All religious practices help one go in the direction of the Gnan; whereas the 'Self' is the "Science of Self- ( _vignan_ _swaroop_ )". Self is the subtlest that It can go through and through this body, through the houses and through millions of walls. How can one unite with It? It is difficult to attain Self-realization no matter how hard one performs the activities of penance practices in order to acquire it. Whose fault is it if he goes twenty-two miles in the wrong direction when the station is only half a mile in the other direction? Is it the fault of the body fault if the path is missed? The fault is completely that of ignorance.

Not only does the Gnani give the knowledge of the Self, He gives an all around solution about every complexity in the universe. If there is an obstacle in attaining Self-realization from the Gnani, it can be broken down by deciding, 'I must attain Knowledge from the Gnani' or by requesting the Gnani, 'Please break down my obstacles'. As such, there will be no adversity for those desirous of attaining the Knowledge of the Self. Adversity is there because of one's own weakness. How can there be adversity in going in to your own home?

If one wants to get experience of the Self on his own, when someone picks his pocket or says foul words to him or beats him up, he should say, 'this is the result of my own _karma_ , the others are innocent and they are freeing me from _karma_ '; and he sees others as innocent and on top of that, he blesses them. And if this state is everlasting, he will surely attain Self-realization. However, in this day and age, people don't have the backbone to attain this state on their own, therefore, once the Self is awakened through the Gnani's grace, the Self cannot be forgotten even in a dream.

How does the salvation of the Self happen? Salvation of the main Self is already there. Only this self (the relative self) is to get salvation. How is that done? Once, there is this understanding that has set within that, 'I am the One with absolute Knowledge ( _keval Gnan_ ), absolute Vision ( _keval Darshan_ ) and absolute Conduct ( _keval Charitra_ )'; then, salvation will happen. But, who other than the 'Gnani purush' can fit us with this Self?

The Self is the subtlest ( _sookshmattam_ ); the regions outside the Self are subtler ( _sookshmattar_ ). But, since speech is not subtler (it is gross – _sthool_ ), speech (words) stops when describing that region. There, only the experience can bring about the end result.

How is one to find the real Self when he is looking for It through his self beliefs? How can he see what is beyond the senses while he is looking for it through the vision of the senses? For that, in the interim, he needs a 'Gnani Purush' who can change his vision; then he can see 'real'. The senses cannot turn inward on their own; one cannot build a fence around the senses! The state that the 'Gnani' has attained, He helps us attain the same state. After meeting with 'Gnani', it is worth asking for final _moksha_. The science of Akram Vignan, that has manifested through revered Dadashri; moves one away from the illusory path and helps one complete the path of final liberation; that is to say that this is the path of full-stop and not a path of comma. Akram Vignan says that if the worldly life were an obstacle towards final _moksha_ , it would not allow anyone to go to final _moksha_! Today, with the help of Akram Vignan, final liberation can be attained very easily. For that, one is to reach out to the _Akram Vignani_ – the Scientist of the stepless path, with the awareness of having the 'highest humility' within and the feeling that 'I don't know anything' and the desire as to 'How can I attain this?' and that will help him attain It. Nowadays, no other qualifications are necessary and such qualifications are non-existent anyway! The only qualification is that one has reached out to the Akram Gnani Purush.

Gnani Purush, the most revered Dadashri has not been able to keep His desire a secret, this desire is expressed in his words filled with compassion that, "my 'idea' is such that the talk of 'this' 'science' reach every corner of the entire world and there must be peace in every place. My intent, my wish, whatever you call it, that's all I have!"

Jai Sat Chit Anand

# Part One: What is the Soul? What must it be like?

## What is Atma?

**Questioner** : What is the Self ( _Atma_ )?

**Dadashri** : Self means _chetan_.

**Questioner** : So _chetan_ means the Self and Self means _chetan_?

**Dadashri** : No. _Atma_ is just a word and _chetan_ is also a word, but we have to use these words for people to know them. But otherwise the Self is beyond words. One has to point them out, no? Otherwise they will not be recognized. How else will you recognize them? That is why people say, 'look for your _Atma_ '. _Atma_ means the Self. To 'know', 'Who am I?' is to know, experience the _Atma_ (the Self or the Self). And that _Atma_ has to be realized. This can be resolved when the wrong belief, 'I am Chandubhai' is replaced with the right belief, 'I am the Self', how will it happen any other way?

## What must the Soul be?

**Dadashri** : Is _Atma_ _vastu_ or _avastu_ ?

**Questioner** : _Avastu_.

**Dadashri** : Is this what you see, _vastu_ or _avastu_?

**Questioner** : _Atma_ is not visible, so it is _avastu_. _Vastus_ are visible, are they not?

**Dadashri** : No. Let me explain to you _vastu_ and _avastu_. Anything that is eternal and indestructible ( _avinashi_ ) is _vastu_ and that which is perishable or temporary ( _vinashi_ ), is called _avastu_. The Self is as the Self only. As the _vastu,_ the Self is the abode of infinite attributes ( _anant guna_ )! And every _vastu_ has its own matter ( _dravya_ ), attributes ( _guna_ ) and phases ( _paryaya_ ). Anything that has _dravya-guna-paryaya_ (matter-attribute-phases) is considered a _vastu_ (eternal, eternal element). _Vastu_ is that which is eternal. _Atma_ too is a _vastu_ , it has its own matter, attributes and phases. And those phases have production ( _ootpaad_ ), steady state ( _dhruva_ ) and consumption ( _vyava_ ). And all this is visible to the eyes, is all _avastu_ , it is temporary and _Atma_ -the Self is permanent, it is _vastu_ – eternal element. There are six such elements. The world is made up of the six eternal elements ( _tattva_ ). The interaction of these six eternal elements keeps undergoing changes ( _parivartan_ _sheel_ ) and because of that, it gives rise to situations ( _avastha_ ). And this world is seen through those situations. Only the situations are visible in this world.

## Know the Atma from the Gnani

If there is anything worth knowing in this world, then it is the _Atma_ – the Self. And there may be only one or two people in this world who know the Self. So no one can know the Self. People can know everything, except the Self. And the One who knows the Self, for Him, absolute Knowledge ( _keval Gnan_ ) is not too far away.

One can attain the knowledge of the Self if he comes to know it from the Gnani Purush, otherwise it is not possible to attain the Self in any era of time. The Gnani Purush has seen, known and experienced the Self and He himself lives as the Self ( _Atma swaroop_ ).

If you come to the Gnani Purush and sit with Him to know such a Self, then through the _Samayik_ of the Gnani Purush, also known as the Gnan Vidhi, demerit _karma_ effects (sins, _paap_ ) will be burnt to ashes. And the awareness of the Self can only be attained when demerit _karma_ are burnt to ashes, otherwise the Self will not come into the awareness ( _laksha_ ). And then that awareness will remain forever; otherwise there is nothing in this world that one can remember forever. Generally one will remember for a while and then he will forget about it. Here demerit _karma_ are destroyed by sitting with the Gnani Purush and thus the awareness of the Self ( _laksha_ ) is attained.

## Who has doubts about the existence of the soul?

**Questioner** : 'Is there a soul or not?' – Such doubts do arise.

**Dadashri** : The Self-the Soul definitely exists.

**Questioner** : Some foreign scientists had conducted a study whereby they had put a dying man in a glass case to see how 'life-living element' ( _jiva_ ) departs and from where in the body. But they felt that there was no soul. Their experiment proved that there is no such thing as _jiva_ at all.

**Dadashri** : No. But do they not make statements like 'this is non-living' ( _ajiva_ )? Is this table non-living or not? It is non-living, right? So then, are the table and man one and the same?

**Questioner** : No. What they meant was that there is no such thing as _jiva_ , leaving the chest – that is what they meant.

**Dadashri** : Those scientists make a 'man' (prolong life); they build new 'hearts' etc., do they not? So if they can make a new man altogether, will that man be able to interact and function in the same way we do?

**Questioner** : No, he would not.

**Dadasri** : So then on what basis can they say that there is nothing like a _jiva_ ( _atma_ ; soul)?

**Questioner** : They had just placed a dying man in the chest and at the time of the _jiva_ leaving (when the man died), they did not see anything leave the chest, so they deduced that there is no such thing as _jiva_ (soul).

**Dadashri** : It is like this, either someone with an understanding will deny it or someone without an understanding will deny it. Not everyone will have doubts, no? And those who have the doubt, the one who says that 'there is no such thing as _jiva_ (soul) _'_ ; he is a _jiva_! The one that doubts is _jiva_ itself; otherwise there will not be any doubt. And all these other non-living things, they can never have doubts. If any doubting is done, it is done by only a _jiva_ \- living entity. There is no other thing that can have doubts, do you understand?

Will a person have any doubts after he dies? No, then what is it that leaves? Does the heart stop? What must be happening?

**Questioner** : A person dies because his heart stops.

**Dadashri** : Yes, a man will die. He lives because he breathes. The _jiva_

within lives because of the breathing. It will live as long as there is breath.

**Questioner** : A person dies when the essential body parts stop functioning. If that is true, then there is no such thing as _jiva_.

**Dadashri** : There is definitely a thing like _jiva_. One is a _jiva_ , and yet he doubts himself. The one having the doubt; is the _jiva_ itself. The one doubting, that 'there is no _jiva_ in this body'; that itself, is the _jiva_. If a person has no tongue, and then he says, 'there is no tongue in my mouth' - that in itself proves that he does have a tongue in his mouth. Do you understand? Therefore, the statement that 'there is a doubt (about existence of a soul) is a contradiction. People say, 'there is no such thing as _jiva_ when a man dies. That statement itself raises a doubt. The doubt itself proves that there is _jiva_ there.

If I _Sat_ down with the scientists, I would explain to them right away that it is the _jiva_ that is speaking. Are you having a new kind of doubt in return? So the _jiva_ is definitely there in any living entity. And do we not give examples such as, 'the _jiva_ goes away'?

**Questioner** : Yes.

**Dadashri** : And when an anesthesia injection is given, why do you lose sensation in that area? Why does it become necessary to numb or deaden the area?

**Questioner** : So that I not feel any pain or have any sensation there.

**Dadashri** : An anesthetic injection is given to move the _jiva_ away from that area. As long as the _jiva_ is present there, you will not be able to tolerate the pain of the surgery. Do you understand that?

## Existence of soul! By which qualities?

**Dadashri** : Is there any difference between _chetan_ (soul, the Self) and _jada_ (lifeless, non-Self)? Does _chetan_ have its own attributes ( _guna_ )?

**Questioner** : Definitely.

**Dadashri** : What are they?

**Questioner** : _Chetan_ has motion; it can move about, it has feelings.

**Dadashri** : Even machines have motion. A scooter, an engine; they all have motion and they all move around, do they not? And do the dolls that are manufactured; do they not move around also? That which moves around is not called soul ( _jiva_ ). If a _jiva_ can be defined by its ability to move around, then these machines move around too. By what other attributes can you recognize a _jiva_? What other attributes will tell you that there is _atma_ ( _jiva_ ) in this?

**Questioner** : We do all kinds of activities ( _kriya_ ).

**Dadashri** : 'All kinds of activities' - that is not helpful either (in making the distinction). Machines too do all kinds of activities.

**Questioner** : Machines carry out activity but they cannot show kindness ( _daya_ ) or love ( _prem_ ), can they?

**Dadashri** : Yes, that is a difference. So, wherever there is _gnan_ (knowledge) and _agnan_ (ignorance); if it is _agnan_ it is _agnan_ , and if it is _gnan_ it is _gnan_ , but wherever there is any knowledge ( _gnan_ ) or any ignorance ( _agnan_ ); wherever there is any kindness, there is _atma_ ( _jiva_ ) there. This is the confirmation. Otherwise, even machines have motion and move about, do they not?

Now if there is no kindness and the person curses and swears, is the soul present there?

**Questioner** : There is always _atma_ there.

**Dadashri** : So is the _atma_ there, even when there is no kindness?

**Questioner** : Yes, machines will not display feelings of kindness or anger, will they?

**Dadashri** : Yes, therefore that confirms that there is _atma_ wherever all these exist. This tape-recorder 'speaks' but it does not have any anger or greed, does it? It does not have feelings ( _lagani_ ). So wherever there is feeling, there is soul.

##...but whose attributes are they?

Feelings; are they an attribute of the body or the soul?

**Questioner** : Of the soul.

**Dadashri** : Is that so! Anger-pride-deceit-greed ( _krodha-maan-maya-lobha_ ), are these all attributes of the soul?

**Questioner** : Yes, the soul must be the doer of all these.

**Dadashri** : But people are trying to get rid of anger-pride-deceit-greed. If they are attributes of the soul, then those attributes would never leave. And are people not trying to get rid of anger-pride-deceit-greed?

**Questioner** : They are trying to get rid of them.

**Dadashri** : But if they are attributes of the soul, then no one can get rid of them, can they? The soul will go away if they get rid of them, therefore they are not the attributes of the soul.

**Questioner** : Are they attributes of the body?

**Dadashri** : They are neither attributes of the body nor of the soul. If you say they are attributes of the soul, then anger-pride-deceit-greed are weaknesses, and the soul is the absolute Soul ( _Paramatma_ ). It has no weaknesses at all.

## And what are the attributes of Atma?

Many say, 'the one that speaks within, is the soul'. But that which speaks within is neither the soul nor God; it is a 'taped record' that speaks. Even in 'our' (the Gnani Purush and the Lord within) case, that which is doing the talking right now, is a 'record'. 'I' am not the one talking. All these are 'records' speaking, 'taped record'! This (speech coming out) is the 'original tape record' that is playing, from which another one is recorded, and then another one from that. So this is the first 'record', and then from that you can record as many as you want. Hence, this speech, this whole 'machine' that is running, eating, drinking, circulating blood – it cannot be called as _jiva_. It is all mechanical. _Jiva_ is a form of knowledge ( _gnan swaroop_ ); Knowledge is a form of light ( _prakash swaroop_ ). The light that is present here does not exist elsewhere in other forms ( _jada_ ).

If someone gives you _shrikhand_ (sweet creamy yogurt with cardamom, saffron and nuts) in the dark, where will you put the _shrikhand_? While eating, will it go into the eyes? Or will it go only in the mouth? What do you think? Why are you not saying anything? Even if someone gives you a bowl of _shrikhand_ in pitch darkness, you will only put it inside the mouth, won't you? Then if someone asks you what you ate, what will you tell him?

**Questioner:** _Shrikhand_.

**Dadashri:** Then if he asks you what is in the _shrikhand_? What will you say?

**Questioner** : Yogurt and sugar.

**Dadashri** : Yes, and if the yogurt was a little spoiled, you would be able to tell, wouldn't you?

**Questioner** : Certainly.

**Dadashri** : And you will know even if it is good?

**Questioner** : Yes.

**Dadashri** : Would you know if there is less sugar in it?

**Questioner** : Yes.

**Dadashri** : Would you also know if there is too much sugar?

**Questioner** : Yes.

**Dadashri** : How can you know all that even in the darkness of the night? Can you tell this, even if it is dark? And then would you know if there were raisins and nuts in it? You would even know if there is a small cardammom pod in it, right?

**Questioner** : Yes.

**Dadashri** : Now, the entity that knows ( _jaaney_ ) all this is the _jiva_ (soul).

**Questioner** : People say that a person can know all this because of the sensory nerves. If there were no sensory nerves, one would not know that.

**Dadashri** : Yes, one would also not know if there were no sensory nerves. But the one who knows, that is the _jiva_. And if the connections between the nerves and the brain cells, are not functioning, then the _jiva_ will not know. But the one who knows, is the _jiva_. Do you understand?

That which walks and moves around is the 'machinery'. Those properties are not in _chetan_ (soul). What are its properties? It has infinite light of Knowledge ( _Gnanprakash_ ), infinite light of vision ( _darshanprakash_ ). Infinite energy ( _anant_ _shakti_ ) and it is the abode of infinite bliss – ( _anant_ _sukha_ _nu_ _dham_ ).

##  Pleasure is also liked by the jiva

Now, who is looking for pleasure? Who does not like pain? Why does one not like pain? If this body were without _jiva_ (soul) then pleasure or pain would be the same. What is the reason? Have you ever thought along these lines? What have you thought?

No living being ( _jiva_ ) likes pain; that is a fact, right? Does any _jiva_ like it? If you put a lump of sugar out here, the ants will get excited and run and take it away, but what if you put a piece of rock instead? They will run away. Why is that? What do they like? Pleasure. Therefore, the one that does not like pain and is looking for pleasure is the _jiva_. The one that moves around, walks about is not _jiva_.

## Where there is feeling, there is self

Then what about feelings? That which has feelings is _jiva_. And this _jiva_ , it is the _atma_ (the self); it verily is _chetan_ and it it can become the _Paramatma_ \- the absolute Self. When it becomes 'full and 'perfect'; it becomes _Paramatma_ – the absolute Self.

Did you understand that? Wherever there are any feelings of any kind; therein lies the _atma_ – there is _chetan_ there. Therefore, know that where there are feelings, there is a presence of _chetan_ there. And where it does not have any feelings of any kind, that there is no _chetan_ there; there is _anatma_ there – the non-Self ( _jada_ ). Even trees and leaves have feelings.

**Questioner** : But a tree is a one-sensed living thing ( _ekindriya_ _jiva_ ).

**Dadashri** : _Ekindriya_ means it has only the feeling of touch ( _sparsh_ ). It expresses the feeling of touch. Every _jiva_ (soul) has feelings. And wherever feelings arise, it proves that there is soul there. We cannot say that 'that in which feelings arise, is the _atma_ itself' – that is not so, but where feelings are evident; there is presence of the _Atma_ (Self) there. And where no feelings arise, there, there is no presence of _atma_.

##...but the one that has feelings is the non-Self complex!

Now, what is _Atma_? There is no such thing as feelings there. _Atma_ is just in the form of light of knowledge. But we can find _Atma_ wherever there are feelings.

**Questioner** : So, does that mean that on the basis (support) of which feelings arise is _chetan_ , or is it that wherever there are feelings, there, is _chetan_?

**Dadashri** : If we say that feelings arise on the support of _chetan'_ , it creates another problem. The feelings arise due to the presence of _chetan_. Therefore, there is _chetan_ wherever feelings arise.

**Questioner** : The feeling that arises and is revealed, it is not _chetan_ that is revealed, is it?

**Dadashri** : It is the _pudgal_ (non-Self complex of intake and output) that is expresses or reveals, but there is _chetan_ there and that is why feeings arise; pain arises. So if you want to make a distinction between _chetan_ (soul, _atma_ ) and _jada_ (inanimate, matter), then feelings do not arise in this 'tape-recorder', therefore there is no _chetan_ in it.

## To 'Know' continuously, is the nature of the Self

**Questioner** : So is there a difference between _chetan_ and matter?

**Dadashri** : A tremendous difference. _Chetan_ is invisible ( _arupi_ ). Whereas matter is _rupi_ , it is visible, it will decay, it will fall and disperse. As time passes, it will start to decay. Also its 'visibility' is such that it is visible to the eyes, the tongue can taste it, it can be heard by the ears; and _chetan_ is _Paramatma_ – the absolute Self.

**Questioner** : Then what is the difference between the Self ( _Atma_ ) and non-Self ( _anatma_ )?

**Dadashri** : They are different by their inherent attributes ( _gunadharma_ ). Everything is in its attributes, is it not? This gold is its attributes; the copper is in its attributes. A thing is identified by its attributes, no?

**Questioner:** Yes, it is.

**Dadashri:** _Atma_ and _anatma_ have some attributes that are similar, but certain attributes differ. The attribute of _chetan_ (the Self) is not to be found in anything else. _Chetan_ means _Gnan_ and _Darshan,_ (Knowledge and Vision).

So this attribute of Knowledge-Vision ( _Gnan_ - _Darshan_ ) are attributes of the Self ( _Atma_ \- Self). A state of constant knowing is an inherent attribute ( _swabhav_ ) of the Self. That attribute of Knowing is not in any inanimate ( _jada)_ thing. This attribute of Knowing does not exist in this body. The attribute of Knowing is an attribute of the _Atma_ , and that verily is the _Paramatma_ the absolute Self.

## Soul is the abode of infinite attributes

**Questioner** : The Self is with Knowledge (Gnan), does it not?

**Dadashri** : The Self itself verily is Knowledge. It is not that it is with Knowledge; the Gnan verily is the Self. When you say that 'with Knowledge' ( _Gnanvado_ ), it means 'It' (the Self) and Knowledge (Gnan) are two separate things. The _Atma_ verily is Gnan, it is the light as the Self. It is because of this light that all this is 'seen' (understood) everything, and 'known' (experienced). It is because of this light, that one can understand everything and know everything.

So, the Self is the absolute Self ( _Paramatma_ ); the abode of infinite attributes ( _anant_ _guna dham_ ). It has many attributes. There are so many attributes that one cannot even begin to mention them. The Self is the abode of its inherent attributes ( _swabahvik guna dham_ ), meaning those attributes will never change any day; it is the abode of such attributes. Infinite knowledge ( _anant Gnan_ ), infinite vision ( _anant Darshan_ ), infinite energy ( _anant Shakti_ ), abode of infinite bliss ( _anant Sukha nu dhaam)_ , _avyabaadha_ (an attribute such that nothing can ever hurt It and neither can It hurt anything, ever) such are the many attributes of the Self.

## When will such attributes of the Self manifest?

You have not attained even a single attribute of the Self, even for a second. Right now you are experiencing the attributes of the _prakruti_ – the non-Self complex. You will attain attributes according to your belief. If 'you' remain as 'Chandulal', you will attain the attributes on the non-Self ( _prakruti_ ) and if 'You' become _Shuddha_ _chaitanya_ (pure Self), then 'You' will attain 'Your' inherent attributes ( _swabhavik_ _guna_ ). So take whichever seat you want to.

There is no soul where there is no presence of the soul's attributes. This gold is gold as long as it is in its own attributes and not in attributes of other metals. The attributes you see in the world are of the non-Self ( _prakruti_ ), the Self is not there. The Self is the Knower-Seer ( _Gnata-Drashta_ ) in that, but it is not a part of it. The Self has not become mixed to the level of becoming one in that. The Self is not miscible; it is immiscible ( _nirbheda_ ) – a property that will never allow it to become mixed with anything.

## How can the Soul be known?

**Questioner** : Can the Self be seen? Or is it just an imagination ( _kalpna_ )?

**Dadashri** : You cannot see air, and yet do not know that it is there, no? You can smell perfume, but you cannot see it, can you? But even then you are convinced of the existence of perfume, are you not? That is how you can be convinced that there is Self. Just as you know perfume by its fragrance, you can know the Self from its bliss, and then 'You' will be able to see the world 'as it is'. Then, from that 'You' will be convinced that the Self has infinite attributes. Infinite Knowledge, infinite Vision, infinite Energy, the abode of infinite bliss; there are many such attributes. The Self is verily is _Paramatma_ _Paramatma_ , but you have to realize that. All its attributes will manifest once you realize the Self. _Atma_ has infinite viewpoints ( _anant bheda_ ); it is the abode of infinite attributes. You have not known a single attribute yet.

The Self is an element of all the three times (eternal), and it is the abode of infinite bliss and yet people are searching for pleasure in mangos (trivial worldly things); 'market material stuff' (things that have no real value). What you can see with your eyes, hear with your ears, smell with your nose, taste with your tongue, all that you can touch; that is all "market material".

## Infinite energies manifest through becoming familiar with Gnani

**Questioner** : Does the Self have infinite energy ( _shakti_ )?

**Dadashri** : Yes, but that energy should manifest through a Gnani Purush. Just as when you went to school to learn. Your knowledge was there within you, but the teachers brought it to surface. In the same way, your energies will arise with help from the Gnani Purush. There are infinite energies within, but they are all under ground in mines, so they need to be mined and brought out. 'We' expose those energies for you. There is tremendous underlying energy within You. Not just in you, such energy is present in every living being, but what can one do? There are layers and layers of ignorance covering it.

**Questioner** : Is ther any relation between the energy of the Self and the energy of the body?

**Dadashri** : Both the energies are different.

**Questioner** : Do they affect each other?

**Dadashri** : Yes of course. The energy of the body complex has caused the stoppage of the energy of the Self. When the energy of body complex is in excess, qualities of beastliness will increase.

**Questioner** : And what if the energy of the Self is greater?

**Dadashri** : Beastliness will decrease and humanity will increase.

**Questioner** : So what should one do to acquire the energy of the Self?

**Dadashri** : Energy of the Self is already there within. It is the energy of the _Paramatma_ , the absolute Self. However, that _Paramatma_ does not even have the energy to break a wafer and yet the _Paramatma_ is the owner of infinite energies!

**Questioner** : That does not quite 'fit'; make sense.

**Dadashri** : It has to 'fit' (come into the Vision as the Self). As long as it does not 'fit', there is a little disparity in understanding. If it does not fit, then it is not Gnan (Knowledge) at all; only if there is _agnan_ (ignorance of Self) it will not 'fit'. But otherwise everything must fit, but for that you will have to make some time and become familiar with 'us' (the Gnani Purush).

**Questioner** : How?

**Dadashri** : By coming here and sitting with the Gnani Purush and becoming more familiar with it.

The Self has infinite energy of Knowledge ( _Gnan_ _shakti_ ); it is not as if there are only one or two such energies. It is because of this infinite Knowledge energy ( _Gnan_ _shakti_ ) that knowledge of astrology, legal knowledge, medical knowledge, etc., has been revealed. There are different 'subjects' of any _gnan_ (knowledge) and there is that much energy within to reveal all of them. Therefore the Self is the owner of infinite energy. It has infinite _Gnan shakti_ (energy of Knowledge) and infinite _virya_ _shakti_ (energy to energise the non-Self complex). That _Paramatma_ has magnificent energies.

## 'Patel' is the neighbor and the 'Self' is in the Paramatma

**Questioner** : What does the Self look like? Does it appear as a brilliant light ( _tejasvi_ ) or is it in some other form or shape ( _akruti_ )?

**Dadashri** : It is not with form ( _akruti_ ) nor is it formless ( _nirakruti_ ). This _akruti-nirakruti_ is all man's imagination; it is an intellectual subject. The Self is verily the Self. It is in the 'form' of light ( _prakash_ _swaroop_ ). It is a light that does not even need a location; it does not need any support - that is the form of the light of the Self. The Self is such that it can pass right through mountains. It is in such a Self, that 'I' am residing. And that is why even if someone were to beat this 'A. M. Patel' (Dadashri's worldly name) or swear at him; 'I' would not be affected. 'I' am separate and this 'Patel' is separate. 'Patel' is the neighbor and 'Patel' is the one who carries out all the worldly interactions ( _vyavahar_ ).

## Atma – with form ( _saakari_ ) and without form ( _niraakari_ )

**Questioner** : It is said that God is the abode of light ( _tejteja_ _na_ _ambar_ ) and faultless, free from ignorance and darkness ( _niranjan_ ) and formless ( _nirakaar_ ).

**Dadashri** : And God is also with form ( _saakari_ ).

**Questioner** : You are saying it both ways, this way and that way.

**Dadashri** : From the relative viewpoint, God has a form and from the real viewpoint, God is formless.

**Questioner** : Where can one go to learn this _alaukik_ language – language that is beyond the world?

**Dadashri** : Right here from Dada.

Your name is Chandubhai and it was Chandubhai even when you were a child and it is Chandubhai even after you got married; is it not?

**Questioner** : Yes.

**Dadashri** : Then whose 'husband' did you become? Based on what, are you a 'husband'? Were you a 'husband' before?

**Questioner** : No I was not.

**Dadashri** : But you are the one and the same, are you not? That is exactly what I am saying that when you meet a _nimit_ (some medium, instrumental in a process), then through that relation you are called a 'husband'. This is a relative view and talk. Similarly, through this relationship, God is with form ( _sakaar_ ) and without any relation, God is formless - _nirakaar_.

So if you want to worship the formless God, if you want to know the formless, then you should go to the God with a form. You will not be able to see the formless God with your eyes and you will not be able to understand with _buddhi_ (intellect; Dada explains that intellect is the indirect light of the Self that comes out through the medium of the ego). You will never be able to understand the formless by any means, but go to a God with form in whom the formless has manifest.

Here amongst the humans, who can be considered as _sakaar bhagwan_ – God in the human form? The Gnani Purush! The human being in whom the flawless and formless ( _niranjan_ and _nirakaar_ ) has manifest, that One is called as _sakaar_ _bhagwan_ – manifest God.

**Questioner** : But if I want to imagine the form of the Self, how should I imagine it?

**Dadashri** : You do not have to imagine Its form; instead sit with the God who has a form; the One in whom God has manifest. The God in human form is verily the Self. The One who has known the Self, _Atma_ _Gnani_ , with the body, is a God. That is how you should imagine. You should worship his whole temple (the body in which the God has manifest). Otherwise, the Self does not have any form. You have to 'know' (experience in the Gnan Vidhi) its formless quality from a Gnani Purush. Then that form will fit You, 'You' will never forget it.

So, the Self does not have a form; it is formless. Still, what is the Self like by nature? It is in the shape of the body it occupies. But in the _Siddhagati_ (location where all souls having attained complete liberation from cycles of birth and death, reside), it is only 2/3rd the size the body in the fanal life before liberation ( _charam_ _deha_ ).

There is a tremendous difference between the bodies living in the fifth _ara_ (the current time cycle) as compared to the ones of the third _ara_. That height is different and this one is different. The final body through which _moksha_ is attained is the form on which the form in the _Siddhagati_ is based on. But the Self is formless – _nirakaar_.

**Questioner** : Is there anything like a shadow there? What is there?

**Dadashri** : No, there is no shadow there. There is no such thing out there. Shadow is _pudgal_ – non-Self complex.

**Questioner** : When I wave my hand this way in the air and nothing comes in the hand, similarly if I go to _moksha_ and wave my hands, will I hit anything?

**Dadashri** : No. No nothing will come in your hand if you wave it that way. If you were to wave a flame through the Self, it will not get scorched. If you move your hand like this through it, even then the Self will not touch your hand. That is what the Self is like. If you move ice through the Self, it will not become cold, if you move a sword through it, it will not get cut.

**Questioner** : Still, it must have a form, should it not?

**Dadashri** : It is a formless form ( _nirakaari_ _akaar_ ); it is a flawless formless form– _niranjan nirakaari-akaar_. Its form is not what you imagine it to be. It has its own natural form.

## Where in the body is the Soul not present?

**Questioner** : The Self cannot be x-rayed or photographed with any instrument.

**Dadashri** : Yes the Self is very subtle ( _sukshma_ ) and so it is not tangible. It cannot be caught on camera, nor is it visible to the eyes. It cannot be seen through a microscope, binoculars or any other such instruments. It cannot be seen with anything; that is how subtle it is.

**Questioner** : So I wonder where the Self may be.

**Dadashri** : The Self is so subtle that it will not be affected even if hot flames were to go through it.

**Questioner** : But where is it located in the body?

**Dadashri** : The question is where in the body it is not. It is not in the nails and the hair. It is not in the part of the nail that we cut off. Everywhere else in the body, there is the Self. So the question is not 'where in the body is the Self?' but 'where in the body is there no Self?'

There is no Self in the part of hair we cut off. If someone were to cut your hair while you were sleeping, you will not know so therefore there is no Self in the hair. And wherever there is the Self, if we prick that part of the body with a pin, you will immediately feel it.

**Questioner** : Ordinarily the Self is in the brain, is it not? And it is because of the nerves that one feels the prick of a pin, does he not?

**Dadashri** : No the Self is throughout the body. There is only brain in the head, it is machinery and it is a tool that gives you all the internal information. The Self exists throughout the body. Would you not know immediately when a thorn pricks you?

So what you see is verily the 'photo' of the Self. The only thing is that it is covered with layers and layers. Otherwise it is the same 'photo'. The Self's photo remains the same.

So whatever part of the body is pricked with a pin and where pain is felt, there the Self is present. Even at night you will feel it if someone were to do that, will you not? So the pain that is felt wherever the body is pricked, the Knower of that, is the Self When the Self leaves the body, then no matter how much the body is poked with a pin, 'Chandubhai' (the dead person) will not say a word, he will not even flinch; not one bit.

**Questioner** : Can we say that the Self feels the pain?

**Dadashri** : The Self can never feel pain, the Self has no pain at all. If you put burning coals on a block of ice, will the ice get burnt?

**Questioner** : We do not feel any pain when we cut our hair, so there is no Self there?

**Dadashri** : No.

**Questioner** : And where we experience pain, is the Self present there?

**Dadashri** : Yes, there the Self is present.

**Questioner** : If the Self experiences pain and pleasure, then does it not become a _sansari_ (immersed in worldly existence)?

**Dadashri** : No. The Self does not become _sansari_. It remains in its original state. The 'self' you know of has become worldly; that which you believe as the Self has become worldly and it is 'mechanical'. So it runs as long as you put 'petrol' in (i.e air, food, water), otherwise it will stop running. If you pinch the nose for an hour, it will stop running. Hence, people believe the mechanical _atma_ to be the real _Atma_ , the Self. One has not seen or heard a word of the original ( _muda_ ) _Atma_ and tries to make the mechanical _atma_ still. That which is mechanical can never be made still.

So the Self is not present in the hair and extra nail that is cut off. Wherever you cut the nail and it hurts, there is the Self there and it is present throughout the body.

**Questioner** : But in the scriptures of Yoga, they say that the Self is in the _brahmarandhra_ (the aperture at the crown of head, through which sometimes the soul departs the body).

**Dadashri** : That is fine for the scriptures of Yoga. Do you want to know the truth? Do you want to know the _laukik_ (that which is worldly) or of the _alaukik_ (that which is not of this world)? There are two kinds of knowledge; one that is working in the world ( _laukik_ _gnan_ ) and the other is the knowledge beyond the world ( _alaukik_ _gnan_ ). Do you want to know the real, as it is ( _vastavik_ ) or the worldly?

**Questioner** : Both.

**Dadashri** : If you want to know _laukik_ (worldly) knowledge, then the Self is located in the heart and the world has been created by God; and if you want to know the _alaukik_ (real) knowledge, then the Self is located throughout the body and God has not created this world.

**Questioner** : It has also been said that the size of the Self is the size of a thumb in the heart.

**Dadashri** : No. There is no substance in such statements whatsoever.

## Beliefs versus Facts

**Questioner** : But this statement is in the Upanishad that, ' _Angustha matra praman_ – if you want to see the image of the Self within your heart, then do such a meditation that you see it as the size of your thumb.'

**Dadashri** : This is not scientific statement. I would proceed if it were scientific. This is just a method to make a seeker at a certain spiritual level, still. It is not completely incorrect. How can I say that it is incorrect? Anything that can make a person still, cannot be call as incorrect. The gross mind ( _sthool_ _mun_ ) is located in the heart, so this is the basis of further progress ( _dharana_ ) of that. If one holds this in the heart, then he can proceed further. And what is it that prevents one from moving ahead? The intellect ( _buddhi_ ) does not allow him to move forward but what he holds in his heart will let him proceed. So if one wants to go to _moksha_ , then the heart will help. Therefore you will need the help of the heart; the intellect will not work.

Hence, they have confused people into thinking that the Self is the size of a thumb. The Self pervades throughout the body; it is everywhere in the body and it is over the Self that all this veil of _karma_ is stuck. What is the _karma_ like? Like the resin that sticks over the branches of the tree, in the same way all the _karma_ have become stuck. At infinite locations ( _pradesh_ ) infinite _karma_ are stuck over the Self. Whichever location ( _pradesh_ ) becomes free from _karma_ , knowledge of that particular location will manifest. If the location of medical knowledge opens up, then medical knowledge will manifest. For others, the knowledge of law will manifest. Whichever location opens up, the knowledge of that particular location will manifest.

Now the Self is whole (throughout the body), but when a person loses a leg or a limb, the Self will 'shorten' by that much. The gross mind arises in the heart. The subtle mind is in the brain. The location of the subtle ( _sookshma_ _mun_ ) mind is two inches deep from the center point of the forehead. The location of the gross mind ( _sthool_ _mun_ ) is in the heart.

## The Soul expands and contracts according to the receptacle

**Questioner** : Can the Self be cut off?

**Dadashri** : The Self cannot be cut, it cannot be split; nothing can be done to it.

**Questioner** : What if the hand is cut off from here?

**Dadashri** : The Self will shrink by that much. One natural attribute ( _swabhav_ ) of the Self is that it can expand and contract; but this is true in the worldly interacting state ( _vyavahar_ ). It is not like that in the _siddha_ (absolutely liberated) state. In the worldly state, it can expand or contract. There is only one whole Self within an ant. Even an elephant has one Self but it is in an expanded form compared to the ant. It contracts when a hand or a leg is cut off. And also it contracts when certain parts of the body are cut off; then it will not contract anymore.

**Questioner** : Just as it is throughout the human body, is it the same with the body of an ant or an elephant?

**Dadashri** : Yes, the Self is located throughout the body. That is because the Self is a receptacle of contraction-expansion in an embodied state. Whatever the size of the receptacle; the Self will expand by that much. If the receptacle is small, the Self will contract to fit in it.

**Questioner** : When it leaves the body here, they say that one end of the Self is here while the other is in Punjab (where a new life is taking place); can you please explain how that is?

**Dadashri** : The Self is receptacle of expansion and contraction, so it can stretch as far as it wants to. It has to go where the connection of _karma_ has been bound ( _roonanubandha_ ), does it not? So then is it going to walk all the way there? It does not have legs and a gross ( _sthula_ ) body, does it?

**Questioner** : So can it live in two places at a time?

**Dadashri** : Yes. It can stretch as far as it has to go. So then it begins to enter the new body there and simultaneously it starts leaving this body here. Just as a snake leaves its burrow, part of it is outside and part of it is also inside the burrow. It is similar to that.

**Questioner** : But even when we cut open the body or split it, the Self cannot be seen.

**Dadashri** : The Self is not such that it is visible at all. But it leaves when the body is cut up, does it not? What leaves when a man dies?

**Questioner** : The Self comes out of it.

**Dadashri** : Yes, it leaves and yet it is not visible. But it is there for sure. It is a light; it is in the form of a light. This is all its light. Everything comes to an end when it is not there. Have you seen body after the Self leaves? Have you seen a _nanami_ (death process)? Does the dead body have any light?

**Questioner** : No.

**Dadashri** : Then the Self has left the body. So the Self is in the form of light.

## Does the Soul reenter the same body after death?

**Questioner** : When the heart stops beating, we say that a person is dead.

**Dadashri** : And even the doctors say, 'The man is gone.' there is a pulse as long as the heart is beating, and when there is no pulse, doctors know that life is not possible so they pronounce him dead.

**Questioner** : We have read about certain cases where some dead people come back to life. What should one understand in that process? Did the soul come back into the body? Did the Self enter the body again?

**Dadashri** : You are right; there are exceptions, where the pulse comes back. So then doctors think that life came back into the body. But that happens only in certain circumstances. That happens when is when the Self ( _jiva_ ) has gone up to the crown of the head. It does not matter that the heart has stopped, but Self has gone up to the crown of the head. So when the Self _jiva_ comes back down, the heart will start beating; that does happen. Then even the doctors are surprised. But it is not a new Self ( _jiva_ ) that comes into that body. It is the same Self that has not left the body. It has gone up to this upper part, above the heart. Here at the top of the crown of the head is _brahmarandra_ , it is called _dasham_ _sthaan_ (aperture in crown of head through which sometimes the soul leaves the body), that is where it goes up to. So if the Self ( _jiva_ ) remains in the body, then it can happen. Sometimes that happens; it does not happen often but there are certain exceptions. If someone is bitten by a snake or if someone suddenly falls in water, then the _jiva_ may go up to the _brahmarandra_ \- crown of the head. Then it becomes difficult for it to come back down. In the current time cycle, there is no 'know-how' about how to bring it down. If it comes down on its own naturally and spontaneously, that is different. That is when people think life has come back into a corpse. But that does not happen normally.

## What is death? What happens after death?

**Questioner** : What is death?

**Dadashri** : Death is like this; when this shirt was stitched, it was 'born' and so once there is birth, death is inevitable. And anything that takes birth is bound to die some day. And the Self is _ajanma_ _amar_ (no birth-no death). It has beyond death. Hence anything that is born is bound to die one day. And because there is death, it is bound to be born. So death is joined together with birth. Where there is birth, death will be there without fail.

**Questioner** : But what is death in fact?

**Dadashri** : When you go to sleep at night, where do you go? Where do you come from in the morning?

**Questioner** : That, I do not know.

**Dadashri** : That is how birth and death are; the time in between one is 'asleep', then after he is born, he wakes up. From the time he dies till he is born, he sleeps during that time. The 'Self' is eternal and so the 'Self' can never have birth or death, can it? Death and birth are as situations ( _avastha_ ). A person is one, but does he not have the three situations? Does he not have a situation of childhood, a situation as a youth and the situation of old age? These are the three different situation, but the 'Self' is the same in all of them, is It not? Those situations are of the body. And even death and birth are situations of the body. The Self is not born nor does it die. The Self, has no birth or death.

**Questioner** : So why does death come?

**Dadashri** : What it is; is that there are three batteries of the mind, speech and body, when one is born. These batteries start giving their effect from the time one is in the womb and they remain until they run out, when the account of _karma_ comes to an end. When they completely discharge, it is called death. But when the old batteries are discharging, the new batteries for the next life are being charged (simultaneously). This charge-discharge continues, because one has a wrong belief and thus causes are created. As long as the wrong belief exists, attachment-abhorrence ( _raag-dwesh_ ) will continue and causes of a new life will be created. Attachment-abhorrence and causes will not arise if the wrong belief is replaced by the right belief (Self-realization).

**Questioner** : Where does the _Atma_ go when the body dies?

**Dadashri** : It is like this, the Self is eternal; it is permanent. It does not have to 'go' and 'return'. And when this body dies, the Self does not have a choice as to where it should go. It is under the control of 'scientific circumstantial evidences' ( _vyavasthit shakti_ ). Hence, it has to go wherever the evidences take it. The Self is the only permanent thing in this, the rest are all temporary. The mind, intellect, chit and ego are all temporary. And the Self is such that it is completely separate from this body. Just as this shirt of mine is separate from the body, are they not? Similarly, the body and the Self are separate.

## So many adjustments of nature!

**Questioner** : At the time of death, between leaving the old body and acquiring a new one, where, for how long and how does the Self remain? How long does every _jiva_ (soul) take to acquire a new body?

**Dadashri** : It takes absolutely no time at all. It (the Self) is in the current body and at the same time it starts in the womb of the new mother. If the person dying is in Baroda and the new mother is in Delhi, then It is in the womb over there but also in the body over here. So there is no time lag. The Self cannot be without a body even for a second.

**Questioner** : So how long does it take for it to leave one body and acquire another body?

**Dadashri** : No time at all. It is here too, it is still leaving the body here and it is also present in the womb there. This is because there is a timing of when the sperm and the ovum unite. When the time arises for it to leave this body, over there the circumstances are ready, when everything comes together, that is when it leaves. Otherwise it will not leave, because what will it eat if it leaves from here? What will it eat when it goes to that womb? The moment it arrives there, out of hunger it devours the father's sperm and the mother's ovum. After this the embryo-fetus develops. So tell me, is this not all scientific circumstantial evidence?

So it does not take long even to leave from here. Now if the timing is not right for it over there, the one dying will linger on, moaning and suffering. One may say, 'why are you not leaving? Hurry up and leave!' and the answer is that 'no, because they are not ready over there!' Do people not suffer in their last moments, moaning? It can leave from here only when the adjustments are ready over there. But when it does leave, it is like clockwork over there.

## The balance sheet of the current life dictates the next life form

**Questioner** : Is the life form of the next life based on _vasanas_ (impressions from _raag-dwesha_ done in current life) a person has before he dies?

**Dadashri** : Yes, according to the _vasanas_. Do people not say that he had such and such a _vasana_ at the time of death? However, that _vasana_ is not something that he creates anew; it is the balance sheet of _karma_ of his whole life. At the final hour of death, the account of everything one has done during his entire life comes forth and the balance sheet is determined, which in turn dictates the next _gati_ \- migration of the Self into different states of existence).

**Questioner** : After death, not everyone is born again as a human being. Some also are born as dogs, cows etc.

**Dadashri** : Yes, there is scientific circumstantial evidence behind that. All the scientific causes come together. There is no doer of all this. Neither God, nor you have done this. You just believe, 'I did it', and so it gives rise to a next life. You are not the doer from the moment You realize the Self and this wrong belief of 'I am the doer' is destroyed. Thereafter, 'You' are not the doer for sure.

**Questioner** : But should we leave all this behind and go to the Himalayas to realize the Self?

**Dadashri** : No, you do not have to go to the Himalayas. 'We' can make you realize the Self within an hour. You do not have to become an ascetic ( _bava_ ) and go to the Himalayas. Here, you may eat, drink and enjoy life and the Self-realization will remain all along.

**Questioner** : But is it not said that the Self gets a human body every time?

**Dadashri** : No, no, no. People have said that it goes from a human body to only a human body. They gave the consolation that one becomes a human from a human, just as wheat comes from wheat. So people feel that it is great, because they are going back into a human form anyway, so they steal as much as they want, take as many bribes as they want. But that is not how it is.

Here, the rule is that the one who has taken that which is not rightfully his (pilfered); will go from having two legs (humans) to having four legs (animals). But that is not so forever either. The most it will be for is about two hundred years; seven to eight life times in the animal form and the least mount of time he goes to animal life form will be for five minutes and then return to the human life form. There are some _jivas_ (souls) that go through seventeen lives within a minute. There are _jivas_ like that too. Not all those who go to animal life form, go for two hundred years.

**Questioner** : Souls of the human life form, leave with a causal body, along with the _kashayas_ (anger-pride-deceit-greed). But what do the souls of the lower life form bring along with them?

**Dadashri** : What it is; is that they have gone there (to a lower life form) to unload their stock of _karma_. They have to go there to unload the load of their account of _karma_ they had accumulated. If one has created a credit ( _punyai karma_ ), then he has to go to a celestial life form, or have a lifestyle fit for a king here as a human. And if he creates a debit ( _paap karma_ ), he will have to pay it off through a life as an ox, a dog or a cow. For some it will not be paid off and so when his life as a dog comes to an end, he will be born as a donkey. If there is still debit after that, then he will be born as a fox. But there will be a maximum of eight such lives. There will not be a ninth life. The debit is paid off in eight lives and then he returns in human life form.

When a man dies, four to five impartial people carry him off. Listen to them. Partial people are those of his family and his enemies too. Enemies say negative things about him and the family will say positive things about him. And the impartial ones will say, 'He was like a _deva_ (celestial being)'. This will tell you which life form he is headed for. And for some, they will say, 'He was like a monster.' The opinion these people form about him; that is the direction of life form he is headed for.

## Moksha is desired by those who...

**Questioner** : A human being acquires another body immediately upon death, then why do people try to attain _moksha_?

**Dadashri** : _Moksha_ is sought by anyone who has worries and cannot handle them. But the one who likes worries, there is no need for _moksha_ for him, is there? So, not everyone has a need for _moksha_. People outside India can handle worries; they do not need _moksha_. Some people here can handle worries, so they do not need _moksha_ either. However, those who cannot tolerate worries, those who feel like running away from this worldly life ( _sansar_ ), they seek _moksha._

## These are the laws of nature

**Questioner** : Does every _jiva_ (soul) have life after death?

**Dadashri** : Every _jiva_ has life after death. Only some souls like the Gnani Purush or the one who is the non-doer ( _nivrut_ ) in activity ( _pravruti_ ), there is _moksha_ for them.

**Questioner** : Is there a rebirth after liberation?

**Dadashri** : No. there is no life after liberation.

**Questioner** : And after death?

**Dadashri** : There is definitely a life after death for every _jiva_.

**Questioner** : After death, is it the same _jiva_ that is born or is it another _jiva_ that takes birth?

**Dadashri** : The same _jiva_ takes another birth.

**Questioner** : So then why is there an increase in the population?

**Dadashri** : It will increase and then later it will decrease. With population, it is a rule that it will increase and decrease. This world is such that it will continue to increase and decrease. Now the population will continue to decrease.

**Questioner** : Those souls will live again, will they not?

**Dadashri** : Are those souls going to die after living the current life? They all went back to a life in the animal form. They went back to the same place they came from.

After death, if any soul is meant to go into a celestial life form, it will go in that direction and any soul that is meant to go to hell, it will go in that direction. Some go into an animal life form, and if it is to be be born as human again, it will go into the human form. And there are some souls who have bound such _karma_ that they have to suffer two to three years of punishment and so they will not get another body and so they have to wander around in the _pretayoni_ (souls without body).

So death is like changing the clothes. Whatever part is physical, is left behind or goes away and the soul gets another _yoni_ (place of birth; source of life).

**Questioner** : How can it be proved that the soul went somewhere else after death? Is there proof?

**Dadashri** : Of _punarjanam_ (another birth)?

**Questioner** : Yes. And is it such that a man can accept?

**Dadashri** : Yes, 'we' will give you proof so that one can believe that there is a _punarjanam_ (rebirth and another life). It is a long proof. People are bound to ask for proof of whether there is rebirth, are they not?

## How long will the process of rebirth take?

**Questionr** : Who takes rebirth? The Self or the _jiva_ (living being here)?

**Dadashri** : No, no one has to take it, it just happens. This whole world "just happens", is just happening.

**Questioner** : Yes, but who makes it happen? Is it done by the _jiva_ (soul) or the Self?

**Dadashri** : No, the Self has nothing to do with it; everything is with the _jiva_ (soul). The one who wants worldly pleasures has the right to enter another womb. And one that does not want worldly pleasures, it loses the right of entering another womb.

What it is, is that if you go to a sugar factory, you will find they buy sugarcane at one end and at the other end you will find stacks of bags of sugar being stocked. Do you know what process is involved between the two? On the one end they take the sugarcane, they cut it first and then it is crushed. So it is crushed in its 'second life time' Then from there it goes into its 'third life time', then into its 'fourth life time'. And that is the way sugar is finally made. Sugar cannot be produced just in one stage; in 'one life time'. So everything goes through several stages of its development before its final stage. The Self is in fact fully developed. But this external part; the external 'clothes', should develop. The people in foreign countries are not developed to the stage where they understand rebirth ( _punarjanam_ ). Whereas here, we have developed people so, whether they understand rebirth or not, they believe in it, for sure. Even a small child will make a statement like 'so and so will happen in the next life'. So it is a different matter whether one understands or not, but they do believe in _punarjanam_ (rebirth).

## The same old routine life after life

**Questioner** : Is the life of every human being related to a previous life?

**Dadashri** : Every birth verily has a previous birth ( _purvajanam_ ). So the connection of every birth verily begins with a past life.

**Questioner** : But what does the past life have to do with the present life?

**Dadashri** : This current life is a _purvajanam_ (previous life) for the next life. The past life was _purvajanam_ and that is why one has this current life. And this life is the _purvajanam_ (past life) for the next life.

**Questioner** : Yes, that is correct, but does something happen within the _purvajanam_ (past life), that has some connection to this life?

**Dadashri** : A lot of connection! Seeds are sown in the _purvajanam_ (past life) and they sprout in this life. So is there not a difference between a seed and the crop? Is there a connection or not? If you sow a seed of millet; the sowing part is the _punarjanam_ (next life) and when it sprouts, that is the current life. Then from this fruit, when a seed gets sown, that is a seed _punarjanam_ (next life) and the fruit from that is the new life. Did you understand or not?

**Questioner** : A man is walking on a road where many others are walking too but only he gets bitten by a snake; is the previous life ( _purvajanam_ ) the cause of that?

**Dadashri** : Yes, that is what 'we' are trying to say that there is _punarjanam_ (another life), and that is why the snake bites you. It would not bite you if there were no _punarjanam_. There is _punarjanam_ and that next life is the payment of the debt. All these are accounts of _karma_ that are being paid; just as credits and debts are paid off from the accounting books. And because of development, these accounts can be understood. That is why many people have started believing in the _punarjanam_. But they cannot say that there definitely is _punarjanam_ (next life). They cannot prove that 'it is definitely there', but it is in their faith ( _shraddha_ ) having seen such examples; that there is _punarjanam_.

This lady will wonder, 'why did she get a nice mother-in-law and why did I get a mother-in-law like this one?' Therefore, one will meet all kinds of circumstances.

## The planning is the origin of karma

**Questioner** : Does one receive the good results or bad results of _karma_ in this life or the next?

**Dadashri** : The _karma_ that are 'done', they are in the form of 'plans' ( _yojana_ ). Just as the government makes plans. They are planning to build a dam on the River Narmada. Now can that plan stop the water that is flowing here, now? It will hold water only when that plan becomes visible to all, and the dam is constructed. Otherwise, the whole thing is a plan on paper only, the dam and everything. But it is just on paper. Similarly, all _karma_ happen in the form of a plan and it is called a 'cause'. And when that 'cause' takes form and becomes visible ( _rupak_ ), it is called an 'effect'. But it takes form – it takes effect - in the next life. So in this life you are suffering ( _bhogavo_ ) the fruits of the _karma_ of the past life. And _karma_ of this life, you will suffer again in the next life. But those _karma_ are in the form of plans ( _yojana_ ) and they will be suffered (as pain or pleasure) in the next life.

Right now _karma_ happens even when you do not want them to happen, do they or not?

**Questioner** : Yes they do.

**Dadashri** : Why is that? The planning has aready happened in the past life. Today it has come into effect ( _rupak_ ), it can be changed if it was being doen, being panned today. But it cannot be changed, does that not happen? Do you not see that?

## Planning of past life, effect in this life

**Questioner** : So is there anything called _kismet_ (fate or destiny)?

**Dadashri** : _Kismet_ is itself a _prarabdha_ (discharge; effect, destiny). The stock of _karma_ brought from the past life is unfolding today.

**Questioner** : So if a person did demerit _karma_ ( _paap,_ sin), does he get to suffer the results in the past life or in this life?

**Dadashri** : Fruit of past life's demerit _karma_ is suffered only in this life. The demerit _karma_ done in the past life happened as a plan. What happens first when you have to build a dam on the River Narmada? Do you not draw out the plans first? Similarly, these _karma_ are first in the form of a plan (cause) and then they take form ( _rupak,_ effect) in this life. First there is planning of the dam and then the plans are drawn out on paper. Now if there is a tear on the paper of the drawing of the dam, is the water going to spill out? No it will not. So you can make changes in the plans but you cannot make changes after that dam is built. Therefore, changes could have been made at the time of planning in the past life but how can the changes be made now? So any changes you make in this life; will show in the next life. Otherwise, once the stamp of approval is put on for the next life (once the _karma_ has been formed to give results), it is considered as written by _vidhata_ (destiny, _kismet_ , _Brahma_ ), and it cannot be turned around.

**Questioner** : If the planning is done in the past life, then when will I do the planning in this life?

**Dadashri** : The planning continues to take place within; things cannot proceed without the planning at all.

**Questioner** : Whatever happens in this life is according to the planning of the past life; so then how will I do the planning for the next life?

**Dadashri** : I will tell you how the planning happens. If the planning does not take place in this life, then there will be _moksha_.

'Planning', means charging of _karma_. While there is discharging of past _karma_ , new _karma_ are being charged. Now how does the charging happen? How does the planning happen? Say if someone tells you, 'I donated 20,000 rupees to this charity'. Now if you ask him, 'How did you give them so much when you would never give this amount to anyone?' He tells you, 'I was pressured into giving that by so and so person'. Now he gives 20,000 (good deed; effect), but his planning (cause) is negative (because his intent was to not give). Now had he done the giving with a higher intent, then the planning (cause) would have sown accordingly and that would have reaped a higher fruit (in his next life).

If a man does _himsa_ (violence through mind-speech or body) and then he feels that what he is doing was wrong, and repents for it, then that is how the 'planning' happens. If a person tells a lie but feels he is doing wrong, then that is how it will be planned.

Now there is only one cause for birth and death and that is the lack of awareness of the Self, absence of Self-realization. That is the only cause. The Jains say that one is bound due to _attachment_ - _abhorrence_ ( _raag-dwesh_ ) and _agnanta_ (ignorance of the Self) and Vedanta have says that it is due to _mada_ (illusion), _vikshep_ (projection due to illusion) and _agnanta_ (ignorance of the Self). Both accept ignorance of the Self ( _agnan_ ) as the cause. So one is bound due to _agnan_ (ignorance of the Self) and he can be freed with Gnan (Knowledge of the Self). When a person realizes his own Self, he is free.

## Resolutions of the parliamentary members come into effect

Here, in this life, whatever false attribution of 'I am Chandubhai' and all the associated linked intents ( _aropitbhav_ ) one makes, they are all worldly intents ( _sansari bhaav_ ), and because of that, all the other 'parliamentary members' come together. Then collectively all these 'members' make a decision, which leads to the creation of the effective body ( _karya_ _sharira_ ). Thereafter, 'effect and causes', 'causes and effect', 'effect and causes', 'causes and effect' continue in this manner.

Is this name 'Chandubhai' effective or not? If someone were to say, 'That Chandubhai, who owns a movie theatre, is not a good man'; if someone makes just this much of a statement, it will have an effect on you. Is this body effective or not? This speech is effective too. Your speech has an effect on some people, does it not? And the mind too is effective. It will not let you sleep if it becomes restless. At ten-thirty at night he gets to his bed. Then in the middle of the night he remembers he has loaned someone twenty-five thousand rupees but he did not get it in writing. The moment this thought arises, the mind becomes restless and it will not let him sleep. And so the mind is also effective.

Therefore, these mind, speech and body are all effective. They give rise to 'causes'. Attachment-abhorrence ( _raag-dwesh_ ) that happens in the effect give rise to new causes. That 'causal body' of the current life, becomes an 'effective body' in the next life. The 'causal body' is known as _karan sharira_ and the 'effective body' is known as the _karya sharira_.

Therefore, after it becomes a _karan sharira_ causal body, everything comes together with the 'parliamentary' process. After this parliamentary process, only the parliamentary decisions remain but all the parliament members leave. Each of those decisions, continue to pass one by one, all the planned decisions keep on passing and their effects come in _rupak_ ('visible through mind, speech and body). You will have to understand all this, will you not?

## In the company of the Soul

**Questioner** : If I am going to have another life ( _poonarjanam_ ), my Self ( _Atma_ ) will also go along, will it not?

**Dadashri** : It will go together for sure. When the Self leaves from here, it takes with it, the _kashayas_ (anger, pride, deceit and greed – _krodha, maan, maya, lobha_ ) from this body. This is because of the wrong belief of 'I am Chandulal', so then with the 'I' comes the 'my' (my-ness, _mamata_ ), and with 'my' arise anger, pride, deceit and greed. So when the _Atma_ leaves, it sweeps up everything and takes with it the anger, pride, deceit and greed; making sure nothing is left behind.

Now what else goes with the Self? Along with it go the _karan sharira_ which is the causal body and the subtle body ( _sukshma sharira_ ) which is the electrical body. As long as this gross body exists, as long as it is _sansari_ (involved in worldly life interaction), there is an electrical body in every _jiva_ (soul) and when one (the Self) goes to _moksha_ , the electrical body is discarded and only the Self alone leaves.

## 'Here' there is a guarantee of just one more life before moksha

**Questioner** : So having attained the Vision of the Self (through Akram Vignan), if One constantly lives in the Self, will there be another life for Him?

**Dadashri** : No. However, there still remains one more life before _moksha_ because 'this' is along with 'our' Agnas (special instructions after the Gnan Vidhi). Following the Agnas is considered _dharma dhyan_ (absence of adverse inner meditation). Therefore, you have to spend one life to reap the fruits of following the Agnas. As such 'You' will experience _moksha_ right here. What is the point if you do not experience _moksha_ right here? Otherwise, in this _Kaliyug_ (current time era in which there is no unity between the mind, speech and action) everyone cons you. If you send someone to the market to buy vegetables, he will charge you a commission for that. What is the assurance in this _Kaliyug_? So _moksha_ has to be there with a guarantee. 'We' give 'You' this guarantee. Then the benefit depends on how much 'You' remain in 'our' Agnas. The more 'You' remain in the Agnas, the more 'You' benefit. However, the awareness ( _bhaan_ ) of the Self will remain constantly the whole day, even when you are working in the office. If the work is too "sticky (very involved)", then when you are done with that work, the awareness will return.

If the activity is sticky, then just as when you put your hand under water flowing out of a ½ inch wide pipe, your hand will not move but if you put it under the force of water flowing from an inch and half wide pipe, your hand will move away; similarly if the _karma_ is very sticky (created with more intense _raag-dwesh_ ), then it will shake you up. However, we have no objection to that either, because we have to clear out these pending accounts in one life time, do we not? We cannot go to _moksha_ without clearing them, can we?

**Questioner** : Do we have to go through another life ( _punarjanam_ ) if we do not clear out the account?

**Dadashri** : Yes, that is why rebirth ( _punarjanam_ ) happens. Therefore the account must be completely cleared; then You will have the solution.

## Illusion is the cause of birth and death

**Questioner** : So does that mean that if there is going to be another birth, it is that very soul that goes there?

**Dadashri** : Yes, that very soul, no other.

**Questioner** : So then it can be said that even the soul takes a new life again too, no?

**Dadashri** : No. The Self cannot be born. That is not its attribute. The birth is of the _pudgal_ (the non-Self complex) and death too is of the _pudgal_. But it is 'its' (the non-realized soul) belief that 'I am Chandubhai' and therefore it has to be dragged along. Otherwise, birth and death is of the _pudgal_.

**Questioner** : But the soul is with the _pudgal_ , is it not?

**Dadashri** : It is with the _pudgal_ because of the illusion ( _bhranti_ ) otherwise once that illusion goes away; the Self and the _pudgal_ have nothing to do with each other. After the illusion goes away, whatever ( _karma_ ) had been charged, get discharged, then that is the end of that. No more is charged.

All _karma_ that are taking place currently, if one says that, 'I am the doer' of those _karma_ , if he says, 'I did them'; then a new account of _karma_ is created. And if he understands that ' _vyavasthit_ did all this and I am _Shuddhatma_ (pure Self)', then he has nothing to do with _karma_.

**Questioner** : Then the birth will not happen?

**Dadashri** : Yes, then he becomes free. But in this present era of the time cycle, a complete discharge of _karma_ is not possible. The intensity of the _karma_ is such that it takes one or two life times to discharge completely. When the doership stops, that is the end, _karma_ ceases to be bound.

**Questioner** : I want to know your thoughts about past _karma_. For example, what kind of _karma_ do these tiny insects do so that they gain benefit in their future lives?

**Dadashri** : Except for humans, all other living beings do not have fruits (effects) of _karma_. They become free by undergoing the effects of their _karma._

**Questioner** : So what life form do these insects get in the next life? Are they going to remain as insects?

**Dadashri** : No. From being an insect, they will be born in another place, then on to another life form ( _yoni_ ). However day by day they continue to become free of _karma_. They only suffer the already bound _karma_ and they cannot bind new ones. Only humans can bind new _karma_. Even the celestial beings ( _devas_ ) are suffering their merit _karma_. They suffer their 'credit' (merit _karma_ ; _punya_ ) and the animals are suffering their 'debit' (demerit _karma_ ; _paap_ ). The humans suffer both, the credit and the debit. The humans not only suffer them; but they also become 'doers' and that is why they bind new _karma_.

**Questioner** : This body is the result of _karma_ , is it not?

**Dadashri** : Yes, it is verily the result of _karma_.

**Questioner** : There should be complete discharge ( _nirjara_ ) of _karma_ , should there not?

**Dadashri** : One goes to _Siddhakshetra_ (the abode of fully liberated Souls) after complete discharge of _karma_ happens. But when the chit becomes pure ( _shuddha_ ), it is considered discharge of _karma_.

## Forces of discharge cause charging in ignorance

Just as the cells of a battery are charged (with energy), similarly this body too has been charged. The body itself does not have any _chetan_ (soul). _Chetan_ is within; it is the Self. The body is simply a charged _chetan_.

Man does not have the _shakti_ (energy) to sleep, _shakti_ to know, _shakti_ to come or _shakti_ to go; there is no _shakti_ of any kind in him. Man has the _shakti_ (energy) to 'charge' and that too, it is not his independent _shakti_. The charging takes place because of the force of the discharging _karma_. If man had independent energy to 'charge', then 'he' would never attain _moksha_ because of the new _karma_ charged which is a responsibility.

One simply believes 'I am doing this', but it happens due to the force of discharging _karma_. When there is a lot of pressure, the 'charging' happens automatically. So, the hinderance is due to the ignorance of the Self. Once the ignorance leaves, liberation is at arm's length.

## Causes results in the cycles of birth and death

**Questioner** : What is the state of the _Atma_ upon death?

**Dadashri** : It is the same as it is now. There is not going to be any change in its state. The only thing is that it leaves this gross physical body upon death; it does not let go of anything else. It takes other circumstances along with it. What are these other circumstances? They are _karma_ that have been bound, then anger-pride-deceit -greed and the subtle body; all these are going to accompany the Self and only the gross physical body remains back. The 'cloth' (old body) becomes useless and so it discards it.

**Questioner** : And it acquires a new body?

**Dadashri** : Yes. It changes into a new 'cloth', that is all. It does not undergo any other changes. One continues to sow new seeds of _karma_ as long as there is ignorance ( _agnan_ ) of the Self; only when the seeds are sown, everything proceeds forward and after one attains Gnan (Self-realization), liberation is attained; Once the awareness and Knowledge of 'Who am I?' is attained, one becomes free.

There is birth after death and death after birth. That is all; this continues on and on. Now, why have these births and deaths happened? In the cycle of causes and effect, effect and causes; if the causes are destroyed, then all the 'effects' will come to an end; then one will not have to take another birth.

If one has created causes his whole life, where will those causes go? And if you have given rise to causes, then they are bound to give you their effect. Can you understand that you have given rise to causes?

Every activity gives rise to a cause. If someone calls you 'worthless' causes will arise within you with the counter attack, 'your father must be worthless'. This is considered your cause. Him calling you 'worthless' is within the laws of _karma_ but you responding to him is not within the law. Do you not understand that? Why are you not saying anything?

**Questioner** : That is correct.

**Dadashri** : So causes happen in this life and their effects will have to be suffered in the next life.

Here 'effective _moha_ ' (discharge, _charitra moha_ ) is considerd to be 'causal _moha_ ' (charge, _darshan moha_ ). It is simply your belief that 'I am becoming angry'. But this anger is only there as long as there is illusion ( _bhranti_ ). It is not anger at all; it is an'effect' (of past causes). When the causes end, then only the effects remain and once the causes are stopped, then one is not responsible for the effects. The effect will not refrain happening.

## The Gnani destroys the cycles of birth and death

What is the real nature of the Self? The original Self, the exact Self, is pure Self ( _shuddha chetan_ ) and is verily the _Paramatma_ – the absolute Self. And what the world believes to be soul ( _chetan_ ), is actually _nischetan chetan_ – lifeless life. If a ball of iron is heated, it becomes just like fire (red hot); similarly this _nischetan chetan_ is like that, it appears as living, but it is not. It appears to be the soul, but is not the soul.

What is _nischetan-chetan_? It is that which is being charged in the presence of _chetan_ (the Self), which then continues to 'discharge' – that is called as ' _nischetan-chetan_ '. The unit which is being charged, and that charged unit is called the 'causes'. And the causes accumulate over a person's whole life and when he dies, those causes ( _karan_ _sharira_ causal body), becomes the _karya shariria_ (effective body) in the next life.

Effective body means that the three batteries of mind, speech and body are ready and from them new causes continue to arise. So the mind, speech and body continue to discharge in this life and at the same time they are being recharged. The batteries are being charged are for the next life and the batteries from the past life are discharging in this life. The Gnani Purush stops new charging and so the old ones continue to only discharge.

So, upon death, the soul migrates to another _yoni_ (place of birth). Until a person attains the Self, the soul wanders around in all the _yonis_. As long as one becomes engrossed ( _tanmayakar –_ to become one with) with the mind, engrossed with the intellect, the worldly life ( _sansar_ ) exists. Becoming _tanmayakar_ is the sowing of a seed in the _yoni_ , and Lord Krishna has said that this worldly life exists because of the seed being sown in the _yoni_. The worldly life ( _sansar_ ) will come to an end when the process of sowing a seed in the _yoni_ stops.

## New fresh body and senses for next life

**Questioner** : When a _jiva_ (soul) takes another birth, do all the five senses and the mind go with it?

**Dadashri** : No, no; nothing like that. The senses are exhausted and they come to an end. The senses are dead. So, the senses or nothing of the sort goes with it. Only anger-pride-deceit-greed goes with it. Anger-pride-deceit-greed goes along with the causal body ( _karan_ _sharira_ ). And what is the subtle body like? It stays with the soul till it attains _moksha_. Wherever it takes rebirth, the causal body is always with it.

However, the senses and sense organs all die, and from the causal body, new ones arise. The senses have arisen in order to become exhausted; they are constantly exhausting. And they come to an end as they exhaust. And so when one tells his dying uncle, 'Uncle, say something', he will respond with 'le...le...' He loses his speech faculties, which have exhausted. The same happens to the eyes and the ears too. So everything gets exhausted, therefore none of the senses go with the soul. It is going to receive fresh new senses. The eyes will be 'first class'; the ears will be 'first class'. Then just keep listening to the radio with your earplugs!

## How long does the relationship with the subtle body last?

So the Self alone does not leave the body after death. With it also leave, all the _karma_ known as causal body ( _karan sharira_ ) and the electrical body. These three leave together. As long as this worldly life ( _sansar_ ) exists, every _jiva_ has an electrical body. Whenever causal body is created, the electrical body is always with it for sure. The electrical body is always a natural part of everybody and everything functions because of it. The electrical body carries out the function of digestion after one eats. The production and circulation of the blood is carried out by it. The light (energy) with which you see through the eyes is due to the electrical body. Even anger-pride-deceit-greed is also because electrical body is present. The Self does not have any anger-pride-deceit-greed in it at all.

**Questioner** : So is the electrical body involved during the 'charging' of _karma_?

**Dadashri** : 'Charge' can happen only if there is an electrical body. Otherwise nothing will happen if the electrical body is not present. If an electrical body is there but the soul is not there, even then nothing will happen. These are all collective causes.

**Questioner** : When a _jiva_ dies, how does the _tejas_ _sharira_ (electrical body) go with it?

**Dadashri** : For how long does the electrical body remain? It is there as long as there remains a balance of _karma_. Once no balance of _karma_ remains, the _tejas_ body is no longer there. So it remains till the one attains final _moksha_. There is an electrical body in all living beings, trees etc. How will things function without an electrical body? In English, the _tejas_ _sharira_ is called 'electrical body'. Nothing will work in a home without electricity; one will not be able to see anything. When the electricity stops, that is it; everything comes to end.

It is like this: If you have some water and you light a fire underneath it, then no matter how many gallons of water you have, it will all eventually disappear (evaporate), will it not?

**Questioner** : Yes.

**Dadashri** : This water is in gross form and what evaporates away has a subtle form. Similarly, this body has a gross ( _sthula_ ) form, which is visible to you, whereas you cannot see that which has a subtle ( _sookshma_ ) form. But that subtle body is just like the other one, there is no other difference. The electrical body is verily the subtle body ( _sookshma sharira_ )!

**Questioner** : But when a _jiva_ leaves, how do the causal body ( _karan sharira_ , _karman sharira_ ) and the electrical body leave with it? Why do other things not go with it?

**Dadashri** : When you boil water, both hydrogen and oxygen in it will evaporate together but, later, even they separate. But when they leave, they leave together. But they separate and then get together again. It is a _heesab_ (account of _karma_ ). Because of the account of _karma_ , the electrical body remains stuck to the soul. So no other mixture of any kind takes place. The electrical body remains the same till the end of this entire life after life existence. And nothing external touches it. Just as this physical body does not allow another physical body to blend with it, the same is with the subtle body. This gross physical body is visible to the eyes, whereas the subtle body is not, that is the only difference. There is shape and everything else there too; the only difference is that you can see this physical body whereas you cannot see the subtle body. That is all. So no mixture of any kind takes place there. This subtle body will not mix with any thing else. There is 'my-ness' ( _mamata_ ) in this physical body and there is _mamata_ in the subtle body too.

As long as there is worldly life situation ( _sansari_ _avastha_ ), the subtle body will always be with it. Worldly life situation means illusion ( _bhranti_ ). As long as it is there, there is a subtle body.

**Questioner** : So is the soul free or bound in the subtle body?

**Dadashri** : It is separate, not bound. The worldly interacting soul ( _vyavahar atma_ ) is bound; the original Self is not. The soul in worldly interactions is bound.

**Questioner** : The one that takes another birth, is it the subtle body that does that?

**Dadashri** : Yes, but just say that it is the ego that takes birth. We do not experience (know) the sublte body; we have never seen the subtle body. You have learnt just the words 'subtle body', but that is from reading about them in a book. So, say that it is the ego that takes birth again. Can you know the ego or not? It is the ego that acquires the new body again. There is a worldly interacting soul ( _vyavahar atma_ ) soul and there is the real Self. The real Self is not bound; it is pure for sure.

Therefore all the _bhanjghad_ (destruction-construction) are of the ego. If the ego goes away, 'You' will attain _moksha_. That is all; you will be able to understand this in short, will you not?

The subtle body ( _sookshma deha_ ) that we talk about is what goes into the next life. You understand this proof do you not? Otherwise how can you know what is subtle? Subtle is different, only the Gnanis know ( _jaaney_ ) that. Whereas people read about it in books and they keep using the words 'subtle body', but how can they know that which is subtle when they don't even know the gross?

## Who is stuck to whom?

**Questioner** : Is the soul stuck to the body or is the body stuck to the soul?

**Dadashri** : This is how it is; no one is stuck to anyone. Everything is instrumental in the process ( _naimitik_ ). Only in the worldly life interaction people say that 'the soul has stuck to it', so what they say is, 'why don't you let go of this 'tree' you are holding on to?' But is it so easy to let go? These are all scientific circumstantial evidences.

**Questioner** : But it seems that the soul is stuck to the _pudgal_ – the non-Self complex. All this has happened because the soul became engrossed ( _tanmayakar_ ) in the _pudgal_.

**Dadashri** : That is mandatory for the soul.

**Questioner** : Why is it mandatory for the soul? Who made it soul?

**Dadashri** : The Soul is _chetan_ and the _pudgal_ is _jada_ (without the qualities of 'knowing' and 'seeing'). When the two come together, _vishesh bhaav_ (ego, 'I am Chandulal' arises). No one does anything there but because the two elements come together the _vishesh bhaav_ arises and that leads to the creation of the worldly life ( _sansar_ ). But later when the self comes to realize 'Who am I?' and comes into its original state, the Self; the Self becomes free, and thereafter the _pudgal_ also leaves.

**Questioner** : How did they come in close proximity with each other?

**Dadashri** : That verily is this evidence, is it not? All this comes together upon entering the worldly interaction ( _vyavahar_ ). Here, the worldly life interaction is full of circumstances ( _sainyog_ ) and one has to go to where there are no circumstances, to the absolutely liberated state ( _siddha_ _pad_ ). To attain that state, one needs help like the scriptures, the Gnani Purush, etc., and that is when one realizes the Self. The freedom then increases towards final freedom of the absolute Self. This happens in one, two or fifteen life times.

Thefore the Self has not come into the _pudgal's_ cycle at all. The fact that you feel that it is the illusion ( _bhranti_ ). Once this illusion is removed, there is nothing but separation.

## The Self is verily pure; the beliefs are wrong

**Questioner** : The Self in its original nature is pure, so then how have these _kashays_ (anger, pride, deceit and greed) affected it? How have the _karma_ come to be bound?

**Dadashri** : That is a science. If we put a piece of iron here and if it were living, it would say, 'there better not be any rust on me'. But the rule of science is that if other circumstances come in contact with it, then it is bound to rust. Similarly, the Self by nature is pure but due to pressures of circumstances, it has picked up 'rust'.

**Questioner** : At the moment the Self is veiled by _karma_ but if the Self were to settle all those _karma_ , will it pick up 'rust' again?

**Dadashri** : Until one comes into awareness of the Self, the 'rust' continues to happen; always the rust will continue to form. Without the awareness and experience of the Self, one will keep on picking up the 'rust' because one is in _aropit bhaav_ \- false attribution, 'I am Chandubhai'. 'I am Chandubhai' is the _aropit bhaav_ and therefore the 'rust' is constantly building up. When the _aropit bhaav_ goes away and one comes into _swabhav_ , the nature of the Self, the 'rust' will no longer form.

**Questioner** : What must theoriginal state of the Self be like, in the beginning, that it has picked up the 'rust'?

**Dadashri** : All these elements are present in the universe ( _loka_ ). And as long as one is within the _loka_ , one will continue to be affected by all other elements. This is called 'scientific circumstantial evidence'. When the Self transcends beyond the _loka_ (universe); when the Self ascends to the _Siddha gati_ (location at the border of the universe and non-universe, also known as _aloka_ where all liberated souls go), then it will no longer pick up any 'rust' there.

It is like this, no other _karma_ have affected it. Where the awareness of the Self has been lost, only those _karma_ have adhered. Otherwise, the Self is pure. Right now your Self is pure. Everyone's Self is pure, but the external form (the non-Self complex, _prakruti_ ) that has arisen; in that form, has arisen the wrong belief. From the time one is born, _agnan_ (ignorance) is bestowed upon that external form. It is a worldly life ( _sansar_ ), and so from the time a child is born, _agnan_ is bestowed upon him. People say, 'a baby boy is born; a baby boy...' Then he is given the name 'Chandu' and so people keep calling him, 'Chandu, Chandu, Chandu', and so he starts believing, 'I am Chandu'. Then they tell him 'this is your daddy' and 'this is your mommy'. Everything given to him is only _agnan_. He is told, 'You are Chandu, this is your daddy, this is your mommy,' so he acquires all such wrong beliefs which he cannot get rid of. Only when the Gnani Purush breaks that wrong belief, can he have the right belief. Then the final solution is attained. So the Self is verily pure; this current vision is under illusion only.

**Questioner** : But how did all this begin?

**Dadashri** : All these phases have arisen from the coming together of all the eternal elements. This worldly life means ' _samsaran_ _marg'_ (path of evolution, starting from the entry of a soul from _nigod_ ending with liberation) and _samsaran_ means it is constantly evolving. Because of the changes, you feel that your self is impure, whereas I see your Self as verily pure. You have wrong belief that is set and that is why you believe that it is impure. When I fracture your wrong belief and replace it with the right belief, You too will see the pure ( _shuddha_ ) only.

It is just a deluded vision ( _mithya_ _darshan_ ) that has arisen; a belief of pleasure has arisen where there is no pleasure. When 'we' give Gnan (Self-realization and more), one finds the path in the right direction. He will find the solution once he finds the way. When 'we' change his deluded vision ( _mithya_ _darshan_ \- wrong belief of 'I am Chandubhai') and give him the right belief ( _samyak_ _darshan_ \- vision of 'I am pure Self'), he will have his solution, until then he will not have a solution.

The Self is pure. Right now your Self is pure, but wrong beliefs have set within you. And because of that you see pleasure in temporary things. Whatever you see with your eyes, hear with your ears, taste with your tongue; they are all temporary adjustments. And you believe that pleasure lies in those temporary things. Right now you are under the effect of that wrong belief. If the wrong belief is fractured, you will not seek pleasure in temporary things but find it in the permanent thing. Permanent pleasure is eternal bliss; it will not go away once 'You' attain it. And that is considered as having attained the _Atma_ (Self). It is the experience of the state of the Self ( _swa_ _anubhav_ ). With such an experience of the state of the Self, You progress to the absolute Self, the _Paramatma_.

## How can there be a coming and a going for that which is eternal?

**Questioner** : All these living beings, these souls; where did they all come from in this world?

**Dadashri** : No one has come. This whole world itself is a display of the six eternal elements ( _tattva_ ). The world is made of these six etrnal elements and that is what you see. It is simply scientific circumstantial evidences. Therefore no one has created anything; no one has had do anything. It has no beginning and it has no end. I am telling you as it is, that the world has neither a beginning, nor an end. Simply put, one vision shows you the worldly life and another vision shows 'You' liberation. It is all only a change in the vision, nothing else.

Whatever 'comes' cannot be eternal, and _Atma_ is an eternal thing. So it cannot have a 'coming' or a 'going'. Whatever 'comes', has to 'go'. The _Atma_ is not like that.

## The first human being in the world?

**Questioner** : So then how did all these _jivas_ came to be created?

**Dadashri** : These _jivas_ have not been created. The Self is indestructible ( _avinashi_ ) and that which is indestructible can never be created. It is everlasting. It cannot be created, nor destroyed. No one has been created or destroyed. All this that you see is simply an illusion ( _bhranti_ ). The phases come to end. The phase of old age, the phase of young age, they continue to terminate but the Self remains as it has always been. So it is the phases that come to end.

**Questioner** : But there were no living beings ( _jivas_ ) on this earth before, were they? So then where did they come from?

**Dadashri** : Who said that they were not here?

**Questioner** : Science says so.

**Dadashri** : Science does not say that at all. Science accepts everything. This earth has never been without _jivas_.

**Questioner** : Vignan also says that first came life ( _jiva shrushti_ ) and then came human beings ( _manushaya_ _shrushti_ ).

**Dadashri** : This _Vignan_ (the complete vision and knowledge of life after life and liberation) was not there those days. This world has been in existence since time immemorial. It has not had a beginning and it is not going to come to an end.

**Questioner** : Many times I wonder who was the very first human being to be born but I am not able to find the answer.

**Dadashri** : If there was a first human being, then he is considered to have a beginning. And if he has a beginning, then he has an end and so the world will be destroyed. But this world is not going to be destroyed and the world has had no beginning. Therefore, no one was first born. It is just the way it has always been. Whatever there is, it has always been there. From time immemorial, it has been operating in the same way. This world has been like this from time memorial and it will be the same forever.

**Questioner** : But the scientists say that the ape was the first to be here.

**Dasdashri** : There was no such ape. Call it an ape or whatever else, but he is origianlly an _Atma_ , is he not? And the Self is in all _yonis_ (places of birth); there is also _anatma_ (non-Self) there too. There is _pudgal_ (non-Self complex) and there is _Atma_ (the Self). So there is no such thing as there was an ape first. The soul will go into whatever particular _yoni_ where there is an account of _karma._ But otherwise the Self exists from time immemorial and so has the _anatma_ (non-Self).

**Questioner** : It has been said that a human being is bound to the worldly life as a consequence of his past _karma_. So then what kind of past bondage must the first human being born on this earth, brought with him?

**Dadashri** : There was never a human being who was the first one on this earth. This world has not been created at all. Anything that has been created; will one day be destroyed for sure. This world is not going to fade away and neither has it come into existence. The world is without a beginning and without an end ( _anadi anant_ ). And the people in it and every living being; they are all _anadi_ _anant_ (without a beginning or an end). Whether the _jiva_ is a tree or it is the smallest living being _jiva_ ; that _jiva_ has no beginning or an end. There is no increase or a decrease in the numbers; they are as many as they have ever been.

This world is such that there is not a decrease in a single _jiva_ or an increase in their numbers. Not even a single _parmanu_ (subatomic particle) has increased or decreased. You can burn them or do anything to them, but since time immemorial, not a single _jiva_ has been lost or gained; such is this world.

So, the Self has neither come, nor gone. This 'coming-going' is just intellectual talk. One will know that no such thing happens when he understands the language of Gnan. Things appear this way due to the intellect ( _buddhi_ ). When that _buddhi_ goes away, when the ego goes away, then one is free. The intellect and the ego have given rise to all this and that is why it seems that way.

## Who will remove the twisted vision in circumstances?

When a person goes outside, where does his shadow come from? From all the circumstances ( _sanyogo_ ). The circumstance of the sun comes and a shadow is there, a circumstance of a mirror gives rise to a reflection. Similarly, all this has happened because of circumstances and that is why one's 'belief' has changed completely. The Self ( _swaroop_ ) has remained the same but it is the belief that changes; the belief questions 'what has happened here?' Does a bird not peck at it's reflection in the mirror with its beak? It does, does it not? Now, a man will not do that because he knows that it is his own reflection in the mirror. But the bird's belief has changed. It believes that another bird has come in front of it and so it pecks at it. But, when it experiences this for several days, that belief gets destroyed. So this is how one's belief has changed. The entire belief has become wrong and so the ego ( _ahamkar_ ) has arisen and the intellect ( _buddhi_ ) has arisen. And because the intellect has arisen, one takes the support of the intellect and is guided by the 'light' of the intellect and the other main 'light' (the light of the Self) is turned off; and that is why all this confusion has happened. There has been no change in the _Atma_ – the Self. It has not been ruined; it has not been affected at all.

When a person goes out, does his shadow not keep following him? All this is like the shadow. If a person looks at his shadow and raises his arm this way and that way and starts making all kinds of gestures, will you not think he has gone mad? In the same manner if one attains the knowledge of the Self, then like nothing has happened, he becomes free from circumstances. So this is all a coming together of circumstances and nothing else. Now if a person runs around all over the road in order to break free from his shadow, is the shadow likely to go away? No! If he runs this way, he will see his shadow or if he turns this way he will see it. No matter which direction he turns, he will see something, no? So the shadow will not leave him. Now if someone were to tell him to go inside the home, the shadow will be gone!

Therefore, only the belief has become wrong, otherwise there is nothing else. The Self has not bound any _karma_ ; everything just continues on perpetuation of inaccuracies. If the Self were to bind _karma_ , then that would become its permanent attribute and a permanent attribute would never leave. All this is just a wrong belief that has been entrenched in people. The Lord has said something else and people understood something completely different. Nowadays people are not able to understand a single word the Lord spoke. They are not able to let go of anything and they are affected by incessant worries and other problems. Lord Mahavir knew all this, but how could He say anything? He could not say it openly? I can be open with this small group, but I cannot be open with a large group of people. What would become of the poor fellow who is in bondage if I were to tell him 'you are a free man'? He would not be able to experience it and he will only do the wrong things.

Does a bird have to do anything in front of a mirror? The moment it comes before a mirror 'another bird' instantly comes in front of it. It will have exactly the same eyes, the beak etc., and whatever the bird on the outside does; the bird inside the mirror does exactly the same. Similarly, the Self is surrounded by circumstances. Just as a shadow arises by the circumstance of the sun, these circumstances make the appearance of a totally wrong vision of the Self. Only the One who has become free from all these circumstances can free us from this, no one else can. How can the self who is bound free himself?

Where did the the Self come from? In the relative world, I have had to say that the Self is in the _samsaran marg_ (path of evolution). It comes across all kinds of circumstances on that path and due to the pressure of those circumstances; its knowledge has become _vibhavik_ (wrong knowledge, false attribution, 'I am Chandulal'). The Self has not done anything else at all. The knowledge became _vibhavik_ , whatever intent was there, the physical body came to be molded accordingly. The Self did not have to do anything in that. Then one becomes whatever one imagines. He became whatever beliefs he projected and then arose confusion and everything fell into place as per natural laws. It came under the discipline of ' _vyavasthit_ '. The cycle of one battery from another battery, another battery from another battery started (battery means the _karma_ complex which gets charged and discharged). Freedom (from this cycle of charging new battery) will be attained when the Gnani Purush helps You get rid of the charging of the battery. He moves away the three batteries of the mind, speech and body, so a new battery will not be charged and the old one continues to discharge.

## That is why the Gnanis have called it anadi anant

All these are circumstances that have come in front of the Self. When you walk out of your home into a heavy fog, you and I will not be able to see each other even if we are standing in front of each other. Can that happen or not?

**Questioner** : Yes.

**Dadashri** : Yes, you stop seeing because of the fog. Similarly the Self is in the fog of circumstances. So many circumstances arise! But as compared to the atmospheric fog, this 'fog' has an infinite variety of layers (veils of illusion). They are such grave _avarans_ (veils), that they do not allow one to attain the awareness of the Self. But the Self has neither come, nor will it go. The Self itself is the absolute Self - _Paramatma_. But circumstances do not allow this awareness ( _bhaan_ ) to arise; that is a wonder is it not? And the Gnani Purush, who is liberated, who is free from all circumstances, has 'seen' all that!

So these are all questions of the intellect. Every question is a question of the intellect, and it is possible to attain Gnan when the intellect ( _buddhi_ ) ends. People ask, 'What is its beginning?' Hey! Where did you learn the word 'beginning'? That is all a _vikalp_ (that which arises from , 'I am Chandulal'). Inorder to pacify people's inquisitiveness, the Gnanis have called this world ' _anadi_ - _anant_ – beginningless and endless'.

**Questioner** : I did not understand 'beginningless endless' ( _anadi anant_ ).

**Dadashri** : What does 'beginningless endless' means? Anything which is round, you will never find the beginning of it nor the end of it. Can you tell an end in this round necklace? You cannot find even the beginning? Therefore it is called 'beginningless endless'. People have to be explained in their own language that they understand, do they not?

However, that does not happen. Even at this very moment, the Self is in the ' _Paramatma_ ' state, but one is not aware of it. He has lost the awareness from the pressure of circumstances that surround him. If you ask a collector, 'Who are you?' what will he say if he is not aware of who he is? Do people not lose their counsciousness? Similarly, they have no awareness of their real Self at all. People became influenced by whatever others tell them and then they start believing everything that way.

## How can there be a beginning for the eternal?

**Questioner** : Who created the Self?

**Dadashri** : No one has created it. It would have an end, had it been created. It is an eternal thing; an eternal element. It has had no beginning. There is no creator of it. If there were a creator, then there will be an end to the creator and also an end for his creation.

**Questioner** : Why does something like the Self arise?

**Dadashri** : It has not come into existence or anything of the sort. There are six eternal elements in this world that are constantly undergoing changes and all these circumstances are seen because of these changes. People take these circumstances as, 'This is my form'. The circumstances ( _avastha_ ) are temporary, whereas the elements ( _tattva_ ) are permanent. Therefore the Self does not have to 'arise' (come into creation) at all.

**Questioner** : So only the Self has to go to _moksha_ , it does not apply to all the others, does it?

**Dadashri** : The Self is itself _moksha_ _swaroop_ (absolutely free), but it has come under the pressure of other elements ( _tattvas_ ). If it can become free of those elements, then it is _moksha_ _swaroop_. But because of wrong knowledge, one believes 'I am this (the non-Self), I am that', and that is why it continues to be trapped in the wrong belief and with Gnan, with real Knowledge, the Self becomes free.

## Intact arrangement of the interacting life forms in the world

**Questioner** : Do new souls come into the world or does the number of souls remain the same as there currently are in the world?

**Dadashri** : Are you asking where the souls come from because of the increase in the world's population?

**Questioner** : No, not that. There are the era of time cycle ( _ara_ ), of the first _ara_ , the second _ara_ , the third _ara_ etc., so is the number of souls present during those _aras_ the same as those in the present _ara_ or has there been an increase or a decrease in them?

**Dadashri** : There is no increase or decrease of a single soul. Whatever the number of souls that attain liberation from here, a corresponding number of souls that come here from another place; they come into the path of the worldly life ( _vyavahar_ ). _Vyavahar_ means that there is a name and form ( _naam_ rupa) of a soul; that they have come into the worldly life. Thus this rose bush is considered to have come into the worldly life. And those sould who have not been named yet, they have not come into the _vyavahar_ at all. There are infinite such souls that have not yet come into _vyavahar_ , so you cannot count them at all. However many Souls that go to _moksha_ , that many _jivas_ replace them from there. So however many souls there currently are in the worldly life, that number remains constant. There is never an increase or decrease in that. And that is called ' _sansar_ ' – the worldly life; there is no decrease or increase even by one. Do you understand that?

There are infinite souls who have not been named yet, it is from this category that they come here. They are immediately admitted here to replace those that go to _moksha_. That is the rule. Therefore, however many souls there are now, they remain the same in number, no matter when you count.

_Vyavahar_ means any name which has been given, whether that name is a 'rose', a 'potato', ' _vayukaya_ (air-bodied _jiva_ ) _'_ – they have all come into _vyavahar_. But the souls that have not been named have not come into _vyavahar_ yet.

**Questioner** : Where are those souls?

**Dadashri** : They are somewhere else. It is important to understand this fact; it is very profound. But you should not dwell too deep into subtle things otherwise you will lose the Self; all that is for the Gnani Purush. All you have to understand is what the facts are, because in trying to remember subtle things, you will forget to do the main thing. You try and understand on your own and you will see everything. If you continue to follow what 'we' show you, 'You' too will reach that station. 'You' will start 'seeing' everything on the way. So do not keep asking about that right now. If you have reached Bharooch and you ask me, 'Dada, what does the Marine Drive in Bombay, look like?' I would tell you, 'Why don't you wait till you get to Bombay and then see for yourself?' But what happens is that you have reached Surat station and you do not like the sweets you are served there, so then you keep thinking about Marine Drive. That is why 'we' tell you to enjoy it all as it is, as you go and when you get to Bombay, see the Marine Drive for yourself. There is no need to worry about it right now because you cannot see it.

**Questioner** : So does that mean that the number of souls does not increase or decrease?

**Dadashri** : It remains the same; it neither increases nor decreases. Not only does the number of souls not increase or decrease, but also not a single subatomic particle ( _parmanu_ ) of the non-Self ( _anatma_ ) increases or decreases. Even when so many people die in wars and other incidents, not a single _parmanu_ increases or decreases. There is no change in the total number of souls. The world is the way it is, it is not possibe to change it.

**Questioner** : So how can one recognise the energy that runs all this?

**Dadashri** : The energy running all this is like this; if five people are harrassing you, who would you say is harrassing you?

**Questioner** : All five of them.

**Dadashri** : Yes, that is how it is here. No one is solely responsible; they all do it collectively. It is all scientific circumstantial evidences. So when multiple things comes together and work os done, who will you give credit to? Can you give credit to only one? And moreover all this is mandatory ( _farajiyat_ ). This is a path of the worldly life and the soul is passing through the worldly life and this is the effect of it. It is nothing else; it is just an effect.

So the number of souls do not increase or decrease and nor does _pudgal_ the non-Self complex. Even the inanimate subatomic particles ( _jada_ _parmanus_ ) do not increase or decrease. No matter how many subatomic particles you burn or cut down, even then there is no change in the number of _parmanus_ ; it remains the same.

**Questioner** : So then how do the new ones arise? The human population has increased, no?

**Dadashri** : Those numbers that decreased in the animal life form; came into the human life form. But they have also come here with a 'return ticket'. They have come with a 'return ticket' from wherever they have come. 'But what will you do once you are here? (as human beings)' They will say, 'We will take advantage of everyone. We will take all that is not rightfully ours and we will build homes, build roads, build bridges, work hard and die after the hard labor.' So they are going to go back to where they came from. Those who adulterate goods and sell them, are all earning the 'merit points' to go back into the animal kingdom. They will go back when they earn a certain number of points.

## The puzzle of the creation and dissolution of the world

**Questioner** : When will God wind up the this world of living beings ( _jivas_ ) and what kind of a state will it be, when he does that?

**Dadashri** : God does not have the _shakti_ (energy) to wind up this world. On the contrary, God himself is trapped within this world and is trying to become free. When the Gnani Purush shows the way out, then 'He' can come out of it. There is no one in this world that has the energy ( _shakti_ ) to wind up the world.

Therefore God has not created this world. There is no such thing like creator God in this world; this is all scientific circumstantial evidences and the world is a puzzle itself. It has puzzled itself. And 'we' (the Gnani Purush and the Lord within) say it as 'we' actually see how the world has puzzed itself. When all the eternal elements come together, in it, when two specific elements come together, 'that' (the ego) which arises can be destroyed through Gnan. _Agnan_ has given rise to all this. _Agnan_ means _vishesha bhaav_ ('I am Chandubhai' 'I am this'), and so the worldly life has arisen because of the _vishesha bhaav_. It can be destroyed through Gnan; Knowledge of the Self.

No one has created this world. There is no one who is a creator. Who builds these homes and everything? Does Patel (A.M.Patel) build them? No he just pays for it. The bricklayers, the carpenters, the blacksmiths, are the people who build homes. Is God a carpenter or a bricklayer, or something like that? He is God. Everything happens in His presence. Just as the home gets built in the presence of Patel, this world continues to run in the presence of God. He (God) does not have to do anything.

There are so many attributes in the _parmanus_ ; there are so many attributes in this _pudgal_ the non-Self complex ( _anatma_ ), that the eyes etc., are arise automatically and spontaneously. No one has to create them. How sharp are the eyes of these cows, goats and buffaloes? How sharp are the eyes of the monkey? They all arise on their own. _Prakruti_ (the non-Self complex) happens on its own.

What science is behind all this, 'We' (the Gnani Purush) have 'seen' it, and 'know' it but cannot describe it. It cannot be described in words. It has not been explained in the scriptures. Otherwise the original revelation of this is very different.

So the world will remain like this forever. Come to me if you want to understand it scientifically. Otherwise, this world is such that it cannot be measured through your intellect ( _buddhi_ ), because souls go to _moksha_ from here, and yet the world will remain just the same. If you want to understand this wonder, come to me. There is no one to wind up this world.

This world has not been created by God. Some foreign scientists were asking me, 'God is the creator. Our Christ has said that, so why do you say 'no'?' I told them, "God is a creator by the Christian view point, by the Indian view point, by the Muslim view point; not by fact."

_Paramatma_ – the absolute Self has not created this world at all. This world has come into existence by itself, and it has become a puzzle itself. And this puzzle has happened through science. _Vishesha bhaav_ (intent not of the Self) arises when two elements, out of the six eternal elements, come together. In coming together, those two elements do not depart from their inherent attributes but an extra attribute ( _vishesh_ _guna_ _dharma_ ) is created. People gave it the name ' _vyatirek_ _guna'_. So these anger-pride-deceit-greed, are not attributes of the Self and neither are they attributes of the non-Self; they are 'extra' attributes ( _vyatirek guna_ ). Therefore additional attributes have arisen and that is why this world has arisen, that is all. There is no other doer in this world.

These people also say that it was God's desire to create this world. But the one who has desires is considered a beggar. God does not have any kind of desires. Where there is absolute satisfaction, eternal bliss, how can there be any desire? Therefore, desire does not arise in God. But people have been brainwashed into believing that God had a desire and created this world. That is not so. All this is a science. It has arisen due to science. The entire world is only science.

## Creation is verily the natural science

**Questioner** : The origin of this world is due to energy of desire ( _ichchha shakti_ ) and not through the energy of activity ( _kriya shakti_ ).

**Dadashri** : No, it is not through the energy of desire ( _ichchha shakti_ ). The one who has desire is considered a beggar. If God had a desire, then He would be called a beggar.

**Questioner** : Is _vishesha bhaav_ the same as _ichchha shakti_ (energy of desire)?

**Dadashri** : No, there is a great difference between the two. _Vishesha bhaav_ means that which happens when two eternal elements come together. When the Sun and the ocean come together, evaporation of water happens, but it is not the desire of the Sun or the ocean. Similarly, _vyatirek guna_ –an extra attribute such as anger-pride-deceit-greed arise and this world has arisen out of it.

## The elements with form are 'visible' in this universe

There are six eternal elements. From the five elements; earth, fire, air, water and space; only space is permanent ( _avinashi_ ) and the rest are temporary ( _vinashi_ ). Earth, fire, air, water are temporary, they change. Space ( _akasha_ ) does not change.

**Questioner** : Did they (earth, fire, water, wind) originate from space only?

**Dadashri** : No, no. Nothing has originated from the space element in this world. They have all originated from _parmanu_ (subatomic particle); from that which we call _anu_ – atom. Only the _parmanus_ – subatomic particles – is an element that has form ( _roopi_ ). It is from this element that all this has arisen.

Therefore _parmanus_ exist constantly in the world and when they accumulate at some place, they are called _anu_. _Parmanus_ are invisible, in any way. Only the _keval Gnanis_ (Ones with absolute Knowledge) can see them; no one else can.

_Parmanus_ have form ( _roop_ ) and space is formless ( _aroopi_ ). And the four elements ( _tattva_ ), earth-fire-air-water have form; so form ( _roop_ ) is created from that which has form ( _rupi_ ).

## It is the same, whenever you look at it

**Questioner** : Can the world with form and shape ( _sakaar_ ), be created from that which is formless ( _nirakaar_ )?

**Dadashri** : This world of shape and form ( _saakar_ _jagat_ ) has not arisen from that which is without shape and form ( _niraakar_ ). This shape and form ( _sakaar_ ) that we refer to, is not the same as the things you use that have shape and form. All these are _paryaya_ – phases. And phases are all temporary. They arise and then they perish, then they arise and perish again, whereas permanent things remain the same forever. That which is permanent, does not arise neither does it perish. Therefore permanent things remain forever and the phases that continue to arise out of it, keep perishing, arising and then perishing. Only the one who is born will die. The Self does not have anything to do with it. That is how differently this world runs. So there is no need to worry that the world will be destroyed one day. It will remain exactly this way. The sun, the moon and the stars will appear the same whenever and however many times you are born.

**Questioner** : There are many people who say that 'it was God's wish'. But actually He was in a state of non-dualism ( _advaita_ ), He felt lonely, and so he made the decision to enter into duality ( _dvaita_ ) and that resulted in the creation of the world.

**Dadashri** : He is not God if he does _sankalp_ (decided).

**Questioner** : No, not _sankalp_. But that whole intent of dualism ( _dvaitbhaav_ ) arose.

**Dadashri** : No, God cannot have intent of dualism ( _dvaita-bhaav_ ) and He does not have intent of non-dualism ( _advaita-bhaav_ ) either. Dualism ( _dvaita_ ) and non-dualism ( _advaita_ ), that is duality, whereas God is _dvandvatita_ – above duality; He transcends duality.

**Questioner** : But it is because of this duality ( _dvandva_ ), that there is the creation of the worldly life ( _shrushti_ ), is it not?

**Dadashri** : Yes, that duality is itself the worldly life _shrushti_. _Shrushti_ is duality itself and when one becomes _dvandvatita_ (transcends dualism) then his work ends.

## From anadi saant to saadi anant

It is like this; there is no such thing as a 'beginning' of this world and neither is there such a thing as an 'end'. It is through the intellect ( _buddhi_ ) that people keep asking 'when was its beginning?' This is because they had a beginning and so they assume the world too has a beginning.

There is no such words as a 'beginning' ( _adi_ ) or and 'end' ( _anta_ ) for this world. This flow of the worldly life is without beginning but it does have an end. So one may ask, 'From what perspective does it have an end?' All these souls are flowing through the worldly life under an illusion but if they meet a Gnani Purush then that illusion ( _bhranti_ ) comes to an end ( _ant_ ) . So the illusion from time immemorial, comes to an end and gives rise to the right vision ( _samyaktva_ ). _Sa-adi_ means the onset of _Sa,_ which is _samyaktva_ or right vision here. How long will that _samyaktva_ remain? It will remain until one attains _keval Gnan_ (absolute Knowledge). That is referred to as _sa-adi sa-ant_ (beginning and end of _samyaktva_ ). Then in _moksha_ , ithere is another beginning of _sa,_ sa-adi and will remain that way for infinity ( _anant_ ). And that is why it is called ' _saadi-anant'_. So, there are three divisions: first the _anadi-saant_ , then the _saadi-saant_ , then _saadi-anant_!

Therefore there is no such thing as _adi_ (beginning) in this world, and there is also no such thing as _anta_ (end). There will be no end if you were to wonder or imagine about it.

## Changing of circumstances is the nature of the world

**Questioner** : But even then what must be the evidentiary cause ( _naimitik_ _karan_ ) behind the world's origin, existence and extinction?

**Dadashri** : But what do you call origin ( _ootpatti_ )?

**Questioner** : We know that this world is because there is an ongoing change in the _pudgal._ When the world originated, that beginning, is followed by steady state and then destruction. What is the evidentiary cause in this?

**Dadashri** : But where did you see the world originating?

**Questioner** : I have not seen it, but does it not undergo change?

**Dadashri** : Change itself means to originate, to become still and then undergo destruction; that verily is what change means. So this world, in its elemental form ( _vastu swarupey_ ) does not have an origin, neither does it get destroyed; nothing of the sort happens. The change happens only in the situation ( _avastha_ ) of the thing ( _vastu_ , the Self).

**Questioner** : Is the energy of the Self an 'evidentiary doer' in all that?

**Dadashri** : It has nothing to do with it. What does the Self have to do with any of it? Do pharmacies not put labels on medicine bottles to discard the medicine after a certain date even if the bottle is sealed?

**Questioner** : Yes, because the efficacy of its ingredients is gone.

**Dadashri** : How much of the Self is needed in that? That is how all this is. Time eats up everything. Time ages everything but it also makes everything new.

It is all incorporated in the change in form ( _roopantar_ ). What is _roopantar_? It means to come into existence, to exist for a while and then to terminate.

**Questioner** : I still do not understand one thing. The origin of the world has been said to be since time immemorial, but there has to be a reason behind the origin, right?

**Dadashri** : The main reason behind it is this 'puzzle'.

**Questioner** : But there must be some energy to solve that puzzle, no?

**Dadashri** : No, there is no need for such energy. This puzzle can be solved once you know the science behind it.

This world is made up of six eternal elements ( _tattvas_ ). _Tattva_ means they are eternal and they maintain their own attributes. But these _tattvas_ interact around each other and thus all kinds of appearances happen.

**Questioner** : What are these six eternal elements ( _tattvas_ )?

**Dadashri** : One is _chetan_ (the Self), the second is _jada_ (matter; non-Self) and it has form ( _rupi_ ). The _chetan_ _tattva_ is _arupi_ (formless). The third element provides motion to matter and the Self, known as _gatisahayak tattva_ – the element of motion. Now if there were only _gatisahayak_ _tattva_ , then everything would be constantly moving. So to make matter and Self still, they require _sthitisahayak tattva_ which is the element of inertia; element that holds things still and stationary. Besides these four, the fifth element is space ( _akash_ ) and the sixth one is time ( _kaad_ ). The world has come into existence due to these six elements. All six are eternal elements.

## Nature's unfathomable planning

This world runs naturally. Everything in it is in its natural attribute. Nothing has departed from its own nature. This _vyavahar_ (interaction in the world) is the entire _samsaran marg_ (the path of evolution starting from the entry of a living entity into interactive life state ( _vyavahar_ _rashi_ ) from a dormant state ( _nigoda_ ) and ending in _moksha_ ). And these living beings ( _jivas_ ) have come into this _samsaran marg_. So there are three parts. One is _avavahar_ _rashi_ (unnamed souls ready to enter into _vyavahar_ ), second is the _vyavahar rashi_ (interactive life state as living beings) and the third is the _Siddha kshetra_ (destination of the absolute Self).

There are endless _jivas_ of the _avyavahar rashi_ i.e. there are infinite living entities that have not yet been named and are not interacting. Even the _jivas_ that have come into _vyavahar_ (interactive life state) are also infinite. But it is possible to count the number of humans in the interactive worldly life, if one wants to. And those who have become free of _vyavahar_ , those in the _Siddhagati_ are also infinite.

_Jivas_ of the _vyavahar_ _rashi_ are the living entities that have a name and are into the interactive life state. Say if fifty thousand _jivas_ went to _moksha_ , then fifty thousand _jivas_ enter into _vyavahar_ from the non-interacting _avyavahar rashi_ state. So the _vyavahar_ remains the same.

What is considered as _vyavahar_? It is that _jivas_ come through the _samsaran_ _marg_ (natural evotionary path) that have been identified and given a name, meaning they have evolved to a point where they have a form and a name; they are considered to have come into ' _vyavahar_ '. Where we can say, 'this is an onion, this is a rose, this is a grain of rice, this is algae.' So right up to attaining _moksha_ , situations ( _avastha_ ) are constantly changing and development is constantly taking place. A _jiva_ slowly develops, starting from the one-sensed organism ( _ekindriya jiva_ ) all the way to the five-sensed ( _panchindriya_ ). After coming into the five senses, soul comes into the human form in the foreign countries. And then as the soul continues to develop further in the human form, it takes birth in India. In India there is high level of spiritual development therefore such souls are nearer to _moksha_. Those in the foreign lands are are still developing in this respect. The one who is fully 'developed' (has absolute knowledge of the Self) attains _moksha_.

As many _jivas_ that attain _moksha_ ( _Siddha gati_ ), that same number of _jivas_ enter the interactive worldly state ( _vyavahar rashi_ ) from a dormant non-interactive worldly form ( _avyavahar rashi_ ). So _vyavahar_ is that in which there is no increase or decrease in the total number of _jivas_. If there were to be an increase or a decrease of a single _jiva_ , then the whole arrangement would break down.

**Questioner** : What happens if the number of _jivas,_ increases or decrease by one?

**Dadashri** : The entire planning of nature will be destroyed. If the sun does not show up today, then the moon will not show up tomorrow, or there may be some stars that will be absent. So then on some day a certain planet will be absent because one would say, 'it went to _moksha_ ', and so it would be pitch dark here. So the whole planning would be destroyed. But this whole design, everything remains exact.

The sun, the moon and the stars will appear the same even after billions of years. The planets will remain the same, but from within, the souls will continue to change places. The outer packing will remain the same, the reflection or the shadow will remain but the _jiva_ soul within will go some other place. The sun too has the same state externally. But when the soul within leaves, that very moment another soul will come along and takes its place. That is called _vyavasthit_. What a wonderful arrangement that is! If a _jiva_ enters the interactive worldy state at three minutes past three then, only at that moment, does that other _jiva_ leave the interactive worldly life. Yes, otherwise we would know why the darkness happened. But no such thing happens. Therefore, not a single _jiva_ is misplaced and each and every _jiva_ remains in its own service, to serve the purpose of its existence.

However many souls go to _moksha_ , that many souls come from the _avyavahar rashi_ into _vyavahar_. There is no increase or decrease in _vyavahar_ ; it remains the same. So no one should worry about what they will do if some specific types of fruits will become extinct. But even when certain kinds of fruits were to become extinct, another kind will arise but the _vyavahar_ will remain throughout.

**Questioner** : They say that the soul comes from the state of _nigoda_ What is _nigoda_?

**Dadashri** : _Nigoda_ means one body will contain many souls. Just as a there are so many souls in a potato. Similarly, in _nigoda_ , there are many _jivas_. Those _jivas_ have not been given a name. The potato has been given a name.

**Questioner** : So does the beginning commence from the time the _jiva_ has been given a name?

**Dadashri** : No, the beginning starts even before that. That is called _avyavahar rashi_ , meaning these _jivas_ have not entered into _vyavahar_ (the interactive worldly state).

**Questioner** : Where is the location of the souls of _nigoda_?

**Dadashri** : This is the location! It is all over in the space ( _akash_ ). The entire space of this universe is filled with _nigoda_.

**Questioner** : Even in the _avyavahar rashi_ , is there not a beginning of the _jivas_?

**Dadashri** : No. There is no origin or a source there. There are infinite _jivas_ there. So no matter how many _jivas_ leave from there, the endlessness does not go away. Therefore, it cannot be measured through one's intellect ( _buddhi_ ). The intellect cannot reach there. No matter how much you extract out of infinity, it will still remain as infinity. That is called infinity. So there is nothing to lose there. And in the _Siddha gati_ too, they are infinite, and so no matter how many increase over there, there will still be endless.

In the universe, only humans are numerable ( _sankhyat –_ countable) all other living things are innumerable ( _asankhyaat_ ). _Sankhyat_ means, they are subject to increase and decrease. In addition there are laws to the phenomenon of increase and decrease. The increase and decrease is their "normality". So when it increases, it will increase up to a certain number and when it decreases, it will go down to a certain number; that is its normality.

Now when it starts to decrease, first there will be a decrease in the part that is endless ( _anant_ ), then the innumerable ( _asankhyat_ ) part will decrease, then the numerable ( _sankhyat_ ) part will decrease, then the nuemerable attributes will decrease then innumerable attributes will decrease, then the infinite ( _anant_ ) attributes will decrease, and then it will all again increase ( _vardhaman_ ). So after it decreases, it will increase, then after increasing it will decrease ( _heeyaman_ )

**Questioner** : What does _sankhyat_ (countable or numerable) and _asankhyat_ (innumerable) mean?

**Dadashri** : _Sankhyat_ means that which is countable. The human population is _sankhyat_ and the population of the lower life forms ( _tiryanch_ ) is _asankhyat_ (innumerable). _Asankhyat_ means it cannot be counted; it means you will run out of numbers. When they talk about beyond billion, even when they finish counting up to billion, there will still be no end to it. That is called _asankhyat_ (innumerable). It will not end even when you run out of numbers. Only humans are _sankhyat_ ; you can count up to four billion or five billion and it will be over. Otherwise the lower lifeforms ( _tiryanch_ ) are innumerable ( _asankhyat_ ) and so are the celestials ( _devas_ ). The number of _jivas_ in hell ( _narak_ ) is also innumerable. Except for humans all other _jivas_ in _vyavahar_ (interactive life state) are innumerable. _Jivas_ of _avyavahar_ _rashi_ (unnamed livings entities in dormancy) are infinite and there are infinite _Siddhas_ (fully liberated Souls) in the _Siddhagati_ (location of fully realized Souls). Infinite means beyond innumerable; there is no end to them, so do not even try to count them. You can try to count _sankhyat_ (numerable) but what can you do when there is no number for the _asankhyat_ \- innumerable? Hundred thousand, million, billion, and no matter how much you continue to say these numbers, there will still be no end to it, and that is why it has been placed in the category of _asankhyat_. There is no number to it.

This world has become puzzled itself. The reason is that these _jivas_ are constantly flowing in the _anadi_ beginningless stream of the evolutionary path. Just like the flowing waters of the river Narmada, these _jivas_ are constantly flowing. _Dravya_ (matter), _kshetra_ (location), _kaad_ (time) and _bhaav_ (intent) are constantly changing. Even their location keeps changing. So if one was on the tenth mile, in his past life, he returns to this life on the eleventh mile. Now, on the tenth mile he had wonderful gardens, nice people. He saw all that (in the past life) and then when he comes on to the eleventh mile (in the current life), when he sees a desert, he feels 'how can I live here?' He can see what he had seen on the tenth mile and now he sees this, so that creates the conflict within. He keeps feeling. 'This is bad, this is bad.' So today's knowledge causes him problems. All these current problems stem from that. This conflict continues until he attains the knowledge of the Self - _Atmagnan_.

So the world will remain as it is forever. In this, according to the law, _jivas_ will constantly be going to _moksha_.

## Ultimately the solution will come through the association with the Gnani.

**Questioner** : Once a _jiva_ comes into _vyavahar_ _rashi_ , is it bound to go to _moksha_? So even the time as to when that _jiva_ will go to _moksha_ must be decided, right? Is the time for going to _moksha_ decided?

**Dadashri** : _Jiva_ begins to go _moksha_ from the time it comes into _vyavahar_ _rashi_.

**Questioner** : But will its time for _moksha_ be decided?

**Dadashri** : The time is decided but when the _jiva_ comes into the human life form, it is decided provided he does not do any egoism. But when he does egoism, he falls from there and then there is no telling what happens from there on. If one turns backwards into egoism, then there is no surety; he can wander for countless lives. So the timespan is decided provided he does not do any egoism. If he lives like the animals, if he lives with others the way the animals live, without being concerned with pride, without egoism, without greed, then he will go straight to _moksha_. But people are not able to live like animals, are they?

**Questioner** : How can one live like an animal having been born as a human?

**Dadashri** : What I am saying is that if one lives like the animals do, then he will go straight to _moksha_. But seeing others, he too becomes like them. 'They did this, and I am this way', in doing this, everything becomes ruined. Then if he is able to encounter good satsang and meet a Gnani Purush; then he can become free, but not otherwise.

**Questioner** : Is it decided that one will meet a Gnani Purush only at a certain time?

**Dadashri** : No. That is not decided. It depends on when one encounters that circumstance. If one gets a certain kind of push, he will become egotistical! When he becomes egotistical it means he becomes independent ( _nirashrit_ ). All _jivas_ , except humans, depend on God ( _ashrit_ ). Only humans are independent ( _nirashrit_ ).

So man has the ego of, 'I am going to do this' and 'I am going to do that'! In addition he has heaps and heaps of all kinds of desires of 'I want to do this!' So human beings become independent and then they claim 'I am able to do this or that'. So that is when God says 'very well then, go ahead and do your own thing!' And so God becomes free from the responsibility.

What do you say doctor? When you claim, 'I treated my patient this way and cured him', then God becomes free from all that responsibility, does He not?

Therefore, the whole problem is to do with _loksangnya_ \- the association or influence of others. They learn from others and we learn from them. One can never attain _moksha_ through _loksangnya_. Do you understand ' _loksangnya'_? The one who behaves according to what people believe; according to where people believe pleasure to be; will never go to _moksha_. Only if one follows the Gnani's _sangnya_ (association), will he find a solution.

**Questioner** : But the moment he is born, except for people's influence ( _loksangnya_ ), there is nothing else to be found.

**Dadashri** : Yes, but what can anyone do? He lives with people so that is the only way.

But otherwise if one is natural and spontaneous ( _sahajik_ ), then he will go straight to _moksha_. Look at the animals; they are all _sahajik_. They do not have anger-pride-deceit-greed at all. Even when they hit you with their head or horns, they do not have anger in them; it is a natural and spontaneous reaction. And even when they rush to eat their food, they do not have greed; that is their naturalness.

## Moksha is certain; the time of moksha is not

**Questioner** : So are we to understand that for every soul the time to go to _moksha_ has been decided and for some it is not?

**Dadashri** : It is true that every soul is going to _moksha_ ; that is for sure but the time for it to go to _moksha_ is not decided. That depends on what one does in the human life. It depends upon whether as a human being he increases entanglements or decreases them or stops them altogether.

**Questioner** : Does every soul attain a human life form at the same time? Is the timing of it pre determined?

**Dadashri** : Every soul attain a human life for sure.

**Questioner** : But do they attain it at a predetermined time?

**Dadashri** : Yes, the human life form is attained at at predetermined time. The first human life is at a predetermined time. Then when he attains the human life form, he becomes independent to wander around. This is because the ability to creating _karmic_ entanglements is now in his hands. So then there is no telling after this. Otherwise, the path is clearcut till then. Therefore, every _jiva_ 's first human birth is absolutely regular. It does happen on time. Then the _jiva_ comes into entanglements. Then he becomes so perplexed in the entanglements that you cannot even imagine; so many life times go by in this entanglement. This is because a belief of doership arises in the human life form and in doership, one then becomes free to go into any life form of his choice. He can do things that will take him to a life in hell, he can do things to take him to an animal life form, he can also do things to make him a virtuous man or a super human; he can also can do things to come back to a human life form or go to the celestial world to live as a celestial being. And if he meets a Gnani Purush or a _vitarag_ (one who is absolutely free from attachment and abhorrence), he will go towards liberation. So, even liberation is attained, only from the human life form. There is no doership in other life forms, whereas there is doership in the human life form.

## 'Turn the ego around' – the way of the Vitarags.

**Questioner** : So when the soul comes into the human life for the first time, one should remain very alert.

**Dadashri** : But it is not under his control to be alert, is it? He encounters all different circumstances and he gets entangled in those circumstances. Everyone has those entanglements. But if ever he knows about his own ego and yet does not do anything to reduce it, then we can say that he is deliberately becoming entangled.

**Questioner** : I used to think that all souls do not have the same scope. And that is why one soul attains _moksha_ quickly and another attains it later. So then, does it all depend on luck?

**Dadashri** : No, that is not luck. When one takes birth in the human form; it happens due to circumstances. When he takes birth for the first time in human life; that birth is such that there is nothing that would impede his path towards _moksha_ but it all depends upon which way he turns his ego.

If he happens to be born in a family of thieves and if he does not turn his ego around, then there is nothing. Because being born a human he has the right. Therefore he becomes the 'doer' of ego. In that if he does not turn the ego around; then there is nothing. Birth can take place anywhere; any circumstance may come together but he should keep a 'compass' as to which direction he wants to guide his ego. He should keep a 'compass' to do this like they do to guide ships. Therefore, one should have an ego such as, 'I have to run all this now, so I want to be aware and make sure that I follow in this direction.' That is how one has to guide his ego once 'he' comes into the human life form.

**Questioner** : And that is not easy.

**Dadashri** : Everyone would have done it if it were that easy. It is difficult, not easy. Because it is difficult, so many scriptures have been written to understand this. It is very difficult.

Certain talks are to one's liking and he also has to face certain talks and things he does not like. 'He' encounters some circumstances that he likes and some he does not. When a likable circumstance comes, the _Vitarags_ say 'there is nothing worth liking in it nor is there anything worth not liking. You – the Self should remain aloof from all that'. Because there is no such thing, that is 'not-likable'. Still, you are binding yourself when you think something is good, because by saying 'this is good', you are saying that the 'other thing is bad'. When you say that something is good, then you are bound to call something else as bad. So what do the _Vitarags_ say? They say, 'They are all circumstances ( _sainyog_ ). But you create the differences of 'this circumstance is very good and that circumstance is very bad'. The _Vitarags_ have said 'they are all circumstances and they are all temporary, so do not make any of them as 'likable' to you and (consequently) you will not have to push away the 'non-likable' circumstances. If you try to push away the non-likable circumstances, you get into entanglements again and you will end up losing your _moksha_. Instead of not liking it, settle it with equanimity. And they are temporary and therefore they will perish in due time, you don't have to bother with it. Nevertheless if you try to look for a wrong way out of a 'non-likable' circumstance, time will not spare you. You will have to take a beating for the duration of that time. So be patient and settle that circumstance with the knowledge that 'this circumstance is temporary' and move on.

Gajsukumar's father-in-law put a 'turban' made of mud on Gajusukumar's head, did he not? He then placed hot burning coals inside it. Gajsukumar understood that he had encountered this circumstance. In doing this, his father-in-law gave Gasukumar the circumstance of attaining _moksha_. Now he believed that he had received a 'turban for _moksha_ ' with burning coal in it. Lord Neminath had told Gajsukumar, 'You are the Self, and the circumstances are not 'You'. 'You' are the Knower of circumstances. The circumstances are _gneya_ (that what is to be known).' So, 'He' (Gajusukumar) remained separate in that circumstance and attained _moksha_. Otherwise, even despite endless grief ( _kalpant_ ), people die anyway! He is about to die, and to die through _kalpant_ ; he will receive the fruit of the grief.

## The original track of moksha resumes after Self -realization

**Questioner** : Just as a child learns starting with number one, meaning he makes progress in a methodic stpe by step manner ( _kramsar_ ), can we not say the same about religion ( _dharma_ )?

**Dadashri** : It is the same in religion. But in religion, once one comes into the human life, everything changes and everything becomes haphazard. From the human life he goes to lower life form or a higher life form.

**Questioner** : So, after coming into the human life, is there no such thing as a methodical sequence ( _kram_ )?

**Dadashri** : No. After attaining Gnan, it becomes methodical again. As long as there is the human life form and no knowledge of the Self ( _Atmagnan_ ), then one has to wander (from one life to another), all definite sequences disappear. If this were to not happen in the middle, in the human life form, then God would write that everything is based on _niyati_ (a fixed exact track towards _moksha_ ).

## By nature one rises to higher life form, but when?

**Questioner** : The nature of the soul is to rise higher ( _oordhvagami_ ) towards _moksha_. It is said that we have has attained this human life form due to this nature. Now as a fruit of one's _karma_ , one may have to go to the _tiryanchgati_ (animal and plant life). And having done his time in the _tiryanchgati_ , he returns to the human life form. Which natural law applies in this process?

**Dadashri** : It is like this, when one binds _karma_ here, it increases the _pudgalik_ 'weight' ( _pudgal_ – the non-Self complex, subject to influx and outflux), and when the 'weight' of the _pudgal_ increases, one has to go into the lower lifeforms. When that _pudgal_ gets used up in the lower life form (discharged), there is a decrease in the _pudgal's_ 'weight', so then 'he' returns into the human life form. And having come to the human life, if his intent to live a humanly life breaks and his intent becomes compatible with that of a celestial life, then the _pudgalik_ weight becomes 'lighter' and so he will go up to the celestial world. As the weight, the load of _karma_ increases one goes down, and there are seven lower regions ( _lokas_ ) where he can go all the way down. And if he gets lighter, then there are six higher _lokas_ that he can go all the way up to. That is how this universe consists of fourteen _lokas_.

_Pudgal_ is darkness and the Self is the light. If one is pulled into darkness, one is pulled downwards and if one is pulled in the light, he goes upwards.

## Ego is the weight that pulls the soul downwards

**Questioner** : But the nature of the Self is _sahaj_ (natural and spontaneous), is it not? So why is it necessary to do _sadhana_ (seek through mind, speech and body) for spiritual bliss ( _shreya_ )?

**Dadashri** : The Self has neither _shreya_ (spiritual) nor _preya_ (material) _._ The nature of the soul is to ascend ( _oordhvagami_ – to go higher). It is constantly in its nature of going higher, whereas the nature of the _pudgal_ is _adhogami_ \- to go downwards.

**Questioner** : So then what is the definition of _oordhvagami_?

**Dadashri** : _Oordhvagami_ means the Self by nature is such that it can go to _moksha_. If you do not interfere, then the Self can go to _moksha_ on its own. For that you do not have to do anything. And _pudgal_ (non-Self complex of _karma_ ) by its nature is such that it goes down ( _adhogami_ ). The heavier the _pudgal_ becomes, the lower it goes, and the lighter it becomes, the higher it goes. And the Self goes to _moksha_ when it becomes free from the _pudgal_.

**Questioner** : But, if the nature of the Self is only to go upwards then why does it go down again?

**Dadashri** : If a human being has harmful or hurtful thoughts towards other living beings, heavy _parmanus_ (subatomic particles) stick to the _pudgal_ and it becomes heavier, and then it takes it down. And in having thoughts of doing good to others, lighter _parmanus_ stick to it and takes it higher.

**Questioner** : But is it not said that the Self is continuously going towards _moksha_ only?

**Dadashri** : Definitely, it is going forward only, but if it gathers heavy _parmanus_ , it will start going downwards. Its nature is to go higher, but the _pudgal_ takes it down. And so this tug of war has started. That is why 'we' are saying, become free from _karma_. When 'You' become the pure Self ( _Shuddhatma_ ), the pull from the _pudgal_ is reduced. But until then, time, _karma_ , illusory attachment ( _maya_ ) will hinder you. Therefore when this whole 'extra company' ( _prasang_ ) of the _pudgal_ has been settled ( _nikal_ ), then the Self will remain in its natural Self state and go on to _moksha_.

Now, the nature of the _pudgal_ is to go down, but how does this nature increase so that the _pudgal_ goes down even more? The answer is; it is not because the body is fat or heavy but it depends upon how big the ego is and how wide spread it is. A person can be very skinny but his ego can be as big as the world or a person can be very strong and heavy; he can be two hundred and fifty kilos but if his ego is small, he will not sink. Ego ( _ahamkar_ ) means weight! The meaning of ego itself means weight!

Therefore, this world is boundless, but within laws. The nature of the Self is to go higher towards _Siddha_ _gati_ (abode of absolute Souls).

## Descent into lower life forms after human life

**Questioner** : According to the science of the world, how can one reconcile the theory of evolution and the eternal existence of the souls? Can you please explain this?

**Dadashri** : The world is _anadi-anant_ (without a beginning and without an end) in which evolution continues to take place. _Jivas_ (living entities or souls) exist in three sections. In one of them there is no evolution taking place at all. In that section they are stored as a 'stock'. It is called _avyavahar rashi_ ( _nigoda_ ). From this, they go into _vyavahar_ (worldly interactive life) in which they continue to evolve and eventually go to _moksha_. As they evolve, they acquire all kinds of experiences and then they proceed on to _moksha_.

After having the four senses, the ears (hearing) are the last to come. The final development is that of the ears. The prior physical development is, there will be a hole in the place of the ears; otherwise there are only four senses.

Upon acquiring eyes, which is the fourth sense, the _jiva_ becomes a moth. The moment the eyes open, that _jiva_ has illusory attachment ( _moha_ ) to light. When the sense of the ear opens up, the _jiva_ becomes attached to listening till it dies. The _jiva_ will look for things to listen to. One will listen to the radio, to songs. This is the case for anything new that has just happened.

When an ant with the third sense organ (nose) will run around all over the place and even while it is on the ground it will smell _ghee_ in a bucket hanging three feet from the ceiling. Then it will climb up the wall and then down into the bucket and lick the _ghee_. This is because it runs around the whole day for this newly attained sense organ of the nose.

When people refer to 8,400,000 _yonis_ (place of birth); this number is made of up of all the different _jivas_ put together. But if a _jiva_ were to go through all the _yonis_ again, you would never see it again! How will you? It is not like that. One is going to have to wander around here. When a _jiva_ goes from being a human into the animal kingdom, it goes there for eight life times and then it returns to the human life form.

**Questioner** : But according to the theory of evolution ( _utkranti_ ), it cannot go from being a human to the lower life form, can it?

**Dadashri** : It is like this; the human life is the only life form where both 'charging' and 'discharging' takes place, whereas in the celestial, animal, plant and hell life, only the discharge of _karma_ happens. So, those who have gone into a celestial, animal or life in hell, they have all gone there from having lived as a human being. This theory of Darwin is not completely wrong, it is ten to fifteen percent correct, but there are three hundred and sixty degrees and he did not have the complete knowledge of this. Whatever he found through his intellect ( _buddhi_ ) is all correct. But then the whole path takes a curve, which he was not privy to. He did not know that after attaining the human form, one can also go into life as cows and buffalos. These cows and buffalos are not a part of a _jiva_ 's evolutionary development. They all happen after the human life.

Therefore the theory of evolution is only ten percent correct. He did not know the other ninety percent. In that ten percent, he made a discovery only up to the human life form, right? He did not understand the occurrence of _vakragati_ (movement towards lower life forms) after the human life. He did not understand how a human can become an elephant? How one becomes a bull? How one becomes a rhino? How one becomes a fish? How one becomes a whale? etc. This he did not understand. However, his evolution theory, Darwin's theory, is correct. But it is only ten percent of the whole thing. There is so much more after that. How does a whale come into existence? What rule of evolution applies there? That is the phenomenon of _vakgrati_ ; the soul has come from the human life form. Where did the rhino come from? It too has come from the human life form. Where have these lions and tigers come from? They have all come from the human life form. Do the cubs of lions and tigers start eating meat from the time they are born or not? And the calves of cows and buffalos do not eat meat as they grow up. Why is that? The answer is they are herbivores and the former are carnivores. From this you can understand that vegetarian humans become cows and bulls, whereas non-vegetarians become tigers and lions. You can see all that.

**Questioner** : So, having come in to the human form, do they go into _jivas_ that make up earth ( _pruthvikaya_ ) or fire ( _tevookaya_ )?

**Dadashri** : They do not go into _pruthvikaya_ or _teyookaya_. At the most they can go into _sthavarkaya_ (immovabale bodies) like the trees. And from the human life they can go into animal life for a maximum of eight lives.

Therefore, the whole of _devagati_ (celestial life form), _narakagati_ (life in hell) and part of the animal kingdom consists of beings who have all come from the human life form. The human beings charge and discharge _karma_ and they can also remain beyond charge and discharge. Therefore, humans have enough _shakti_ (energy) to attain _moksha_.

Those who do not loose their human virtues will not lose their human form. And if one continues with beastly thoughts, then he will go into the animal kingdom. There is a limit to what you can suffer. Take and enjoy what is rightfully yours and do not even think about that which does not belong to you. Taking and enjoying that which is not rightfully yours, takes you to a lower life form. Therefore it is our thoughts that take us to different life forms.

Those people who have carried out deceitful crimes will go into immobile forms ( _sthavar_ ), like trees that give fruits, they become trees like a mango tree, coconut tree etc. and then their whole life they give their fruits to people to pay off their account of karma of their past life and become free. They cannot enjoy their own wonderful fruits, can they? They have to give them away to people for their enjoyment and become free from their own _karma_. So this is all scientific. No one can do anything in that.

## That is when the Soul will go to moksha

**Questioner** : In the theory of evolution, a _jiva_ evolves into one sensed ( _ekindriya_ ), two sensed ( _beyidriya_ ) and develops all the way into a human being. From the human life form it can go back into the animal form; this contradicts the theory of evolution. Will you please clarify this?

**Dadashri** : No. There is no contradiction. Evolution theory is fine. It is correct only up to the part where it reaches the human life form but they do not have any knowledge beyond that.

**Questioner** : My question is does one go from being a human, back into the animal life form?

**Dadashria** : It is like this; first a _jiva_ evolves according to Darwin's theory of evolution until it comes into the human life form. When it comes into the human life, because of the ego, he becomes the 'doer' of _karma_. And then as the doer of _karma_ , he has to go to a life form according to the _karma_ that he binds. When he creates a debit (binds demerit _karma_ ), he goes into the animal life or for a life in hell, and if he creates a credit (binds merit _karma_ ), he goes into a life of celestial beings or enjoys a kingly life in the human form. So it all depends on the credit and debit, once he comes into the human life form.

So are there not people here who create credits and debits? Nowadays, people create more debits, do they not? They do not realize which 'town' these debits will take them to but they continue creating the debits all the same, do they not? Then from having two legs, they will acquire four legs and a tail! Then they will have to return to the human life again. Thereafter he does not leave the human life form. From here, until the attainment of _moksha_ his human form does not leave. If there is a debit, then he will go and spend anywhere from two to two hundred years in the animal kingdom or hundreds of thousands of years in hell. Or if there is credit, then he will go and spend hundred of thousands of years in the celestial world. But having suffered all that, he comes back here. When he makes preparations for _moksha_ , he will go to _moksha_ from here. Otherwise, he has to keep wandering here.

**Questioner** : When he comes into the human life, his mind is also developed. So does he lose the development of the mind when he goes into the animal life?

**Dadashri** : No. A veil simply comes over the mind. He has a mind in the animal life, but it remains as a limited mind, and his food and blood will be that of that animal. But he has to go to that life form inorder to suffer (pay back) it. If this were not the case, people would not work for a living and go and steal to eat. But one receives the 'fruits' of his actions immediately in his next life.

Now, while one is in the human life form, one takes and enjoys what is not rightfully his. He sells adulterated goods. This is all beastly

and thus he is making preparations for a life in the animal kingdom. We should realize that such thoughts will take one to an animal life form and thoughts of human virtues ( _sajjanta_ ) will bring him back to the human form. And if he has thoughts like those of a super-human; thoughts of giving what is his, to others, then such thoughts will take him to the celestial kingdom.

**Questioner** : Does one have good and bad thoughts in the animal form?

**Dadashri** : No. There are no such thoughts there. That animal life form is a life of only for suffering the _karma_ effect (discharge). The same is the case with the life form in hell and the life of celestial beings. Only in the human form there is binding of new _karma_ (charging) and also suffering the effect of past _karma_ (discharging), both together.

**Questioner** : What if the credit and the debit, both stop?

**Dadashri** : 'Credit and debit ( _punyai_ and _paap_ )', if both come to an end, then he will go to _moksha_!

## The wanderings into different life forms is a natural law

**Questioner** : But do they not say that one attains the human life after having wandered through 8,400,000 different life forms? So then does he have to go through the same wandering and then attain the human form again?

**Dadashri** : No, it is nothing like that. Once he attains a human life, he does not have to go through the cycle of 8,400,000 births again. If he has beastly thoughts, then he has to go a life in the animal form for eight life times and that too for up to a hundred to two hundred years. Then he returns here to the human life again. Having once become a human, one does not wander too much.

**Questioner** : Does the same soul wander through the 8,400,000 life forms?

**Dadashri** : Yes, just the same one.

**Questioner** : But the soul is pure, is it not?

**Dadashri** : It is pure even now; despite having wandered through the 8,400,000 _yonis_ , it has remained pure, it was pure and it will remain pure.

**Questioner** : Then what is the reason for wandering? What is the cause for the wanderings?

**Dadashri** : The soul has no reason; it is always in bliss. The one who is in pain has the desire to get rid of the pain but the soul is truly in bliss.

## Differences are seen due to illusion

**Questioner** : Why did disunity and separation due to difference ( _bhinnatva_ ) arise in the world? If this seperation did not exist, the unity of the Self would have spread throughout the world. There is the seperation of pleasure and pain, the separation of rich and poor.

**Dadashri** : No such thing has arisen in this world and nothing has been destroyed. Creation and destruction, these are mere circumstances that one sees. Nothing happens to the main element (the Self). Those under the illusion (without Self-realization) see the disunity and separation in the circumstances. The main element (the Self) does not undergo any changes.

The _viparit_ _buddhi_ (deluded intellect) shows one all these things. The intellect has been born and it will continue to trap one till the end. One's work is done if his intellect gets 'retired'. But it is not easy to retire it; not even after eighty years.

**Questioner** : There is a difference between water and _toddy_ (fermented palm juice with alcoholic content).

**Dadashri** : All this difference will be there for sure. It is a naturally existing difference. _Toddy_ looks white but one becomes intoxicated as he drinks it but not by drinking water. Every single thing will not refrain from exhibiting its influence, will it?

**Questioner** : There is diversity, difference in the food of every kind of _jivas_ and humans.

**Dadashri** : There is diversity. There is difference in everything. There is difference even between two mustard seeds.

**Questioner** : Why did that difference arise? There would have been no problems if it did not exist.

**Dadashri** : Yes, but they are all imaginations, are they not? This intellect makes a person imagine, 'what if this was not there. This would have happened, if it was like this.' These words should be removed from the dictionary. 'This would have happened if it was like this', these words should not be there, so do not keep them in your dictionary.

**Questioner** : So did _Atma_ _Paramatma_ (the Self, and absolute Self) create this difference? Did it do so deliberately or did this happen automatically?

**Dadashri** : No, there is no difference. What one sees is verily his wrong belief. Just as if a man reads a book about ghosts and then he goes to sleep alone in his room and a mouse rattles a glass in the next room, he will immediately get scared. Now he will have an effect of the ghost until the thought of ghost leaves his mind. This is how these effects are.

**Questioner** : Even within this entire universe, differences exist in every living being.

**Dadashri** : There is no difference in any _jiva_ at all. They are all the same by nature. It is because of the difference in vision ( _drashti pher_ ) that they appear as different. And these differences, is the management of nature. And also these differences are external, differences in the 'clothing', but not within.

**Questioner** : There is difference in the conduct. Differences just like that cows, goats, buffalos are vegetarians; and lions and tigers are carnivorous. Who created these differences? What is the reason for these differences? Is it due to the differences in the _jivas_? Is that a difference of the physical body? Or is it a worldly difference? Is it because there is a difference in the _jivas_ that there are differences in people's lives?

**Dadashri** : No, it is not like that. Listen, I will explain. Are there not many castes of people who do not eat meat? So if they have to go into animal life form, where will they go? They will go into a life form of animals that are vegetarians such as cows, goats etc. And the kings and others who eat meat, when they go into an animal life form; are they likely to go into cows or bufallos? No, they go into lions, tigers etc. So all these arrangements are methodical. In every country, warriors are born as per rule.

In this world, why is it that within a group of the same kind of people, each person has different kinds of thoughts? A circle is round; you have seen a circle, have you not? People living in the world are encompassed within the 360°. At whatever degree one is standing, he will speak according to whatever he sees from that viewpoint. He is not at fault in that. Therefore at the 'degree' level, there will always be difference of opinions, because the degrees are different. But when one comes to the center, then one will come to know what the absolute Self ( _Paramatma_ ) is, what the world is and how it runs.

## Divine and unprecedented inner intent of world's salvation ( _jagatkalyan_ )

**Questioner** : Jains, Vedantis etc., have all accepted the existence of the Self, but this current scientific vision, why is it not universally accepted?

**Dadashri** : They will not accept it because they cannot understand it. In India, every religious view accepts the existence of the Self. People of foreign lands do not have the view of the existence of the Self, because they do not understand reincarnation ( _punar_ _janam_ ). Only those who understand life after life, have the understanding of the existence of the Self.

**Questioner** : But if it is the universal truth then why is it not universally accepted?

**Dadashri** : It is like this. Whatever universal truths there are; they are still relative truths. When I am talking to you, this man will not understand what I am saying, but you will understand immediately. So, everyone's viewpoint is different. Except for the people of India, people from outside will not understand anything related to the _Atma_ , if he does not understand life after life. When foreign scientists come to me, I will explain all the details to them. And only the scientist will understand it; and that too only up to a point. They will not understand as much as you do, because they are not spiritually developed yet. Spiritually, they are underdeveloped.

**Questioner** : Why can someone from India not make an effort so that this reaches all universally?

**Dadashri** : It can reach, but at the present time a veil of ignorance has come over the 'light' of the _Vitarag_ Lords; a veil of ignorance has covered all their talks. Currently I am the only Gnani Purush and I am ready to answer all the questions of all the four billion people of the world, but they have to meet me. Otherwise, what can I do? How can I reach all of them? Your meeting me is due to 'scientific circumstantial evidence' and your work will get done because you met me. Otherwise, those who do not meet me, their work will not be done. Those who meet me will find all the solutions and those who do not meet me will not find the solutions.

However, I do have in mind one day to get together all the scientists of the world and openly give them all the information about what this body is made of. What the mind is. How is the mind born? How does the mind come to an end? What is _buddhi_? What is _Atma_? How does this world run?' This is all a science and people will benefit from it if it reaches them.

**Questioner** : That is exactly what I was trying to say that if it becomes clear and evident from you, that 'I am the Self. I am beyond any company ( _asang_ ).' And that, ' 'I' have no energy to change anything.' If such distinct experience, which is my state, is also available to the world, then it will be of great benefit.

**Dadashri** : It is like this; the world does not see with the same vision ( _darshan_ ), because everyone's viewpoint is different and not everyone even needs this Gnan. All we can tell them is, 'we can tell you about the _Atma_.' But even then they will not have any awareness of it the next day. This vision will not reach them and on the contrary all our efforts will be wasted. Our effort can be beneficial only if it is directed for people in India. And of how much benefit is it for those in foreign countires? If we can guide their scientists and if those scientists can explain it to their people in their language, then it will reach every home. My "idea" is that this science reaches every corner of this world and there should be peace in every place. Whether you call it a desire or an inner intent; this is it.

## That is when the light of Gnan shines

The intellect ( _buddhi_ ) cannot reach the universal truth of this world. It is beyond intellect. Intellect stops there. When one crosses the final layer of the intellect ( _buddhi_ ), he comes into the light of _Gnan_ ( _Gnan_ _prakash_ ); he comes into the universal truth. So the layers of the intellect ( _buddhi_ ) start after all the layers of the mind come to an end. And when _buddhi's_ layers come to an end, then one comes into the light of the Gnan ( _Gnan prakash_ ). But no one can reach there. They are not even able to reach _buddhi_ 's layers and so they remain in the layers of the mind.

## Only the Gnani Purush can shed light on the reality of the world

The Gnani Purush can show you everything about the world, things that are not in the _Vedas_ , not in the scriptures, because the Gnani Purush is our 'medium' and through that 'medium' we can know everything. You cannot put universal truth in books because it is not possible to express or describe and so how can you blame the _Vedas_? Yes, I can explain to you through association of words ( _sangyna_ ), but how much of this association can the _Vedas_ give? The _Vedas_ cannot give an answer to this. What the _Vedas_ have not given, is the task for only the Gnani Purush.

What the world believes to be _chetan_ (the Self, _Atma_ ), is all worldly, there is nothing spiritual in it. _Atma_ is the main thing and the _atma_ that you believe in; is all worldly. Not even a hair worth of _Atma_ is to be found in it. You wrongly believe that, that is all. The main _Atma_ is not mechanical whereas you believe the mechanical _atma_ to be the main _Atma_. The mechanical _atma_ is the worldly _atma_.

**Dadashri** : Are all these people with or without _chetan_ (the Self)?

**Questioner** : They do have _chetan_.

**Dadashri** : How can you tell that they have _chetan_? Through what characteristics?

**Questioner** : Through all these movements of the body that we see; that which goes inside the body and makes it move.

**Dadashri** : It helps bodily movements? The body? The _Atma_ does no such thing. It is the mechanical _atma_ what makes the body move. The _atma_ that you know is the mechanical _atma_. No one, other than the Gnani Purush knows the real _Atma_. There is a real _Atma_ on the otherside of the mechanical _atma_ and it lies within the body. The real _Atma_ does not have any state of motion; it cannot carry out any activity.

When a part of a lizard's tail is cut off, the severed part still has movement. Does that piece have any life? Then why does it jump around? What makes it jump around?

**Questioner** : In that sense, that is an independent attribute of the _prakruti_.

**Dadashri** : So what moves about is not _chetan_. So then what is the attribute of _chetan_? 'If there is _Gnan_ (Knowledge) and _Darshan_ (Vision), then it can be said that there is _chetan,_ the Self there.' The _gnan darshan_ you see in the world right now is not _chetan_ , that _gnan darshan_ is the attribute of the intellect (buddhi). Really even that is not _chetan_ but it is definite that there is _chetan_ there.

This recorded tape has neither _gnan_ , nor feelings and therefore there is no _chetan_ in it. It does say something but there is no _chetan_ in it. Who is talking to you right now? You do agree that someone is talking to you right now, do you not? Would you not have to understand, 'who is it that is doing the talking?' Who is talking to you?

**Questioner** : The _pudgal_ is.

**Dadashri** : Yes, it is the _pudgal_ doing the talking and one says, 'I am talking'. It is not the _chetan_ 's (Self's) attribute to talk. If talking were an attribute of the Self, then sometimes a person stops talking. Does that not happen? So it is not the attribute of the Self.

All the attributes of the Self are the attributes of _Paramatma_ the absolute Self. It would get tired, if it were to talk and move around. Would it not get tired? So there is not a single attribute of the Self that comes to an end. If movement were an attribute of the Self, then the Self would get tired at the end of the day and it would have to go to sleep. Movement is not an attribute of the Self.

_Atma_ 's attributes are permanent. The attributes you talk about are all temporary and relative and they are of the relative soul. Your work will be done when you attain the realization of the real Soul, the Self. Do people not talk about realizing the Self (Self-realisation)? Have you heard that word?

**Questioner** : Yes.

**Dadashri** : One can realize the Self when he attains the realization of the real _Atma,_ the Self.

## The soul as the world knows is mechanical soul

Have you ever seen _chetan_ (the Self) in this world?

**Questioner** : All this we see, is _chetan_.

**Dadashri** : No. _Chetan_ cannot be seen through these eyes, it cannot be heard through the ears, and the tongue cannot taste it. It can never be experienced through any of the five senses. The world has never seen _chetan_ , it has never heard it, it has never come in the conviction and faith. What people call as ' _chetan_ ', is mechanical _chetan_. Mechanical _chetan_ means the one that eats, drinks, and breathes. If you pinch the nose and stop breathing, then how many days will this _chetan_ last?

**Questioner** : A quarter of an hour.

**Dadashri** : Therefore, that is not _chetan_. It is the illusory energy of the _chetan_ that has arisen. Because of the Self within, a 'contact' with _chetan_ has happened and thus it appears in the form of _chetan_ , but it is not _chetan_. It is an illusory _chetan_.

What the world calls as _chetan_ is _chetan_ as they see it; it is not real _chetan_. That _chetan_ is called ' _nischetan_ _chetan'_. So it is a discharging thing. It is ' _nischetan chetan'_ when it is discharging. Every human who walks, moves around and does everything; it is all _nischetan_ _chetan_ (self without Self, _chetan_ without _Chetan_ ). This 'machine' (body complex) is running only due to the presence of the Self ( _Atma_ ) within. It would not run; it would stop if the _Atma_ were not there.

What would happen if you close your mouth and pinch shut your nose? The 'one' within will vacate the room and leave. How can you call that _chetan_? That is a mechanical _chetan_. Actually, if the world had known _chetan_ , everyone would have been blessed by now. They are not even in a condition to know that. This mechanical _chetan_ is known as s _achar_ (mobile) and the real _chetan_ is _achar_ (immovable, still), and so the world is _sacharachar_ (movable-immovable).

There is _chetan_ in this body, but it is 'effective _chetan_ '. What kind is it? It is a charged _chetan_. So a charged _chetan_ cannot be called the original _chetan_ , can it? Is that a mistake or not? Do you realize that, till now it has been wrongly understood? The whole belief has been wrong. Should there not be exactness to it?

**Questioner** : So, is it the mechanical _chetan_ that is throughout the body?

**Dadashri** : Yes, mechanical _chetan_.

**Questioner** : So then, where is the real _Chetan_?

**Dadashri** : Real _Chetan_ is actually throughout the body. And the mechanical _chetan_ is just the outer layer.

What people believe to be the _Atma_ is actually a mechanical _atma_. 'We' do not give you mechanical _atma_ , 'we' give you the unmovable ( _achad_ ; still) _Atma_.

In the _kramic_ path, they believe the mechanical _atma_ to be the (real) _Atma_. When the ego becomes pure, that is when there is no room for anger-pride-deceit-greed in the ego, when it becomes completely pure ( _shuddha_ ); then the _Shuddhatma_ (pure Self) and the pure ego become one. So, that is how it is in the _kramic_ path, but this is the path of Akram Vignan, the step-less science. Therefore, the Gnani Purush gives the pure Self ( _Shuddhatma_ ); the unmovable (still) _Atma_ itself in your hands. There is not an iota of the mechanical _atma_ in there, such a _nirleyp_ (non-smearable; undefilable) _Atma_ He gives you.

**Questioner** : The awakened state within us that shows us good and bad; is that called _chetan_?

**Dadashri** : No. That is all _nischetan chetan_ (self without Self); it is not _chetan_ at all. That is why I am saying that it is a very difficult task to know _chetan_. What people know of is _nischetan chetan_. If you want to say it in English, then you can say that it is a mechanical _chetan_. When you have anger-pride-dececit-greed, attachment-abhorrence, mind-intellect-chit-ego; that is all mechanical _chetan_.

If the _Atma_ did anger-pride-dececit-greed, talking, moving etc., then these habits would never go away. What people believe and know is the mechanical _atma_. The mechanical _atma_ speaks and does everything else; it is an illusory _atma_. The real _Atma_ itself is the _Paramatma_ (absolute Self). 'Your' work will get done when 'You' 'know' and 'understand' this _Atma_ , until then your work cannot be accomplished.

Now, how can one find a solution (liberation) when one believes the mechanical _atma_ to be his real _Atma_? That is why I say that the world has not known what the real _Atma_ is. And where there is no _Atma_ , that is precisely where they ascribe the _Atma_ to be; in that which moves, speaks, talks, does actions, laughs, sings, eats, drinks, runs the business, fights, sleeps etc. The one doing samayik, _japas_ , penance, _dharma dhyan_ (virtuous meditation); that is _atma_. This is what people say, and what I am telling you is that there is no _Atma_ there at all. When there are huge errors in the calculation itself, can you balance the cash book at all?

Therefore, they run this business, they get their sons and daughters married, that is all done by the mechanical _atma_ , while the _achad_ _Atma_ (the Self), the perfectly still Self 'sees' all that. This mechanical _atma_ appears alive, in one's mind it is _chetan_ , but in fact it is not _chetan_.

## And in the eyes of the Vitarags, the Soul is....

What you see, is all machinery; that is not the _Atma_ (the Self). What others call as _Atma_ , 'we' do not call as _Atma_. Even the _Vitarags_ do not call it _Atma_. _Vitarags_ called the real _Atma_ , as ' _Atma_ ', whereas, all these people call _anatma_ (non-Self) as _Atma_. So then if you ask them, 'Sir, do you still have to attain _atmagnan_ (Knowledge of the Self)?' they will tell you, 'Of course I will have to know _atmagnan_ , will I not?' You tell them, 'What you believe to be the _Atma_ , it is not _Atma_.' They will say, 'This is _Atma_ too, but I will still have to know _atmagnan_ , will I not?'' So what does that mean? So the _Atma_ that the _Vitarags_ have seen has never even come into these people's awareness yet. It has never even come into their thoughts! That _Atma_ is _achada_ (unmovable; still) whereas these people call the mechanical _atma_ , as the _Atma_. The mechanical _atma_ is not the real _Atma_ ; it is in the form of a discharge. It is called as 'discharge _chetan_ '. There is one that is 'charge _chetan_ ' and the other is 'discharge _chetan_ '. It is the _atma_ , _chetan_ but it continues to charge and discharge. Do you understand at least some of this?

So the _Atma_ (Self) is not like what people think it is. A person does not need to know anything in this world once he knows the _Atma_. So only the One who has nothing more left to know in this world, 'knows' the Self, the _Atma_.

Therefore 'we' call this _atma_ as ' _pratisthit_ _atma'_ (mechanical _atma_ , discharge _chetan_ ). People believe this to be the real _Atma_ , and this is what they try to make still. Do they not try to still this? But it is by nature, restless ( _chanchad_ ); it is mechanical. It is a waste of time and energy to try to make it still. The world considers this as the _Atma_ , and they believe that their work will be done if they make it still. But this ( _pratishthit atma_ ) is ever moving and the real _Atma_ is still by nature.

**Questioner** : This is mechanical and the 'switch' has been turned on, is that not so?

**Dadashri** : Its mechanical part is already in operation, it has happened for sure; you do not have to worry about anything in that. It has all the fuel it needs and it will continue running. You will not have to add any more fuel to it or do anything else to it. You just have to 'see' this mechanical thing. 'Seeing' and 'Knowing' is the nature of the Self.

**Questioner** : I do not have to do anything?

**Dadashri** : Nothing. Where anything is to be done, that is the mechanical _atma_.

So people are chasing the mechanical _atma_. They say, 'This is the _Atma_. Who else, other than the _Atma_ can do all this?' This is what they believe. Actually, all this happens due to the presence of the _Atma_ and its actual attributes remain in their own nature. But the wrong belief remains the same that, 'I am this (the self) and that is what I am.' One does not know the real thing, because from the very young age he has been given such _sanskar_ (teachings that influence). At first he is called a baby, and then he is given a name. Then later he is called a nephew, an uncle, etc. and in all that he is given _sanskar_ of tremendous ignorance ( _agnanta_ ).

The worldly life ( _sansar_ ) means to keep throwing one deeper into ignorance ( _agnanta_ ). Even if one were a Gnani in the past life, he will continue to hear 'echoes of ignorance' in this life. But when the effect of _karma_ unfolds, it will bring him back into awareness. But the customary rule of the worldly life is that people will keep feeding you and fit you with wrong beliefs.

If we ask a bachelor 'do you have a wife?' he will say 'no. I am not married.' Then if he gets married he becomes a husband. Then when the wife dies, he will become a widower also. So this is what the worldly life is like. All worldly situations and circumstances are temporary in nature and the Self is permanent, but one does not have awareness of this.

When one believes, 'I am a sinner'; that too is the mechanical self ( _atma_ ); it is a part that is restless ( _chanchad_ ). The one that remains immersed and runs the worldly life ( _sansar_ ), such an _atma_ (self) is a mechanical _atma_ – a mechanical self. Machinery will continue to run even if one does not want it to and the main _Atma_ is still ( _achad_ ); not even a bit of it is restless ( _chanchad_ ). It is because there is no knowledge of the Self that people have been told to 'Know the Self – _Atmagnan'_. All the prominent sages and ascetics have said 'Know _Atma_ Gnan, the Self'. One may question 'You are a sage and yet you do not know _Atmagnan_?' and they will reply, 'No! Only the Knowledge of the Self is worth knowing'. Therefore knowledge of the Self, _Atmagnan_ is a task for only the Gnani Purush and no one else. No one other than the Gnani Purush has ever known the Self. When others claim to know it, it is the mechanical _atma_ that they have known and understood. Knowing the _Atma_ , one's state would be completely different.

The whole world cannot experience even a fraction of it; such is the _Atma_. It is still and it verily is _Paramatma_ (absolute Self).

People have just got hold of the word ' _atma_ ' and then they say, "I am _Atma_ ; I am _Shuddhatma_ (pure _Atma_ )," Hey! You are not _Shuddhatma_. Do see _Shuddhatma_ in others? Why do you get irritated when someone causes harm to you? So all this is the mechanical _atma_. The whole thing that the world has discovered is a mechanical _atma_. Or when they find the _atma_ they are searching for, it will be the mechanical _atma_ they would have found.

So, except for the main _Shuddhatma_ , the rest is a moving ( _sachar_ ) part; it is mechanical. And _Shuddhatma_ is the still part. _Shuddhatma_ is the 'Knower' by nature, and this is movable, it is mechanical and it carries out activity. So they are both different and separate. They function differently; it is possible to have the experience of the separation, but one simply does not have the awareness. And in order to bring you to that awareness, 'we' give 'You' Gnan (Knowledge of the Self – _Atmagnan_ ).

## Mishrachetan in planning, mechanical in discharge

**Questioner** : You have used a word ' _mishra chetan_ ' some place, so what is the difference between the _mischra chetan_ and this mechanical _chetan_?

**Dadashri** : They are the same. But in the beginning it is called as _mishra chetan_ , it is not mechanical at that time. However, when it starts discharging, it becomes mechanical. When it becomes firmly established, it becomes a discharge form; that is when it becomes mechanical. It is not mechanical at first.

From the time one starts to have negative thoughts here in this life it starts to become as _mishra chetan_ (mixed _chetan_ ). It then starts to become firmly established and when it starts to give effect in the next life, it is called 'mechanical _chetan_ '. Right now it is not considered mechanical. _Mishra chetan_ is called mechanical _chetan_ after a certain time and not prior to that. It is called mechanical when it starts discharging. It is the discharging _chetan_.

## Egoism, but still in the form of a tool!

**Questioner** : The part that you call _nishchetan chetan_ (self without Self) whose manifestation we see everywhere in the world, people believe that they will be able to understand the _chetan_ , grab hold of it and bring it within the scope of the intellect ( _buddhi_ ). To what extent is their claim feasible?

**Dadashri** : What other tool do they have besides this? There may be _nischetan chetan_ , but there is egoism in it. That egoism is working in this. And because of that ego, one will definitely attain it; otherwise he cannot attain _chetan_ (Self) just through _nischetan chetan_.

## Who am I? Vastutva

Every living being has awareness of its _astitva_ (existence) 'I am', but it does not have awareness of its _vastutva_ (the Self, the answer to 'who am I?'); they do not have awareness of 'Who am I?' and that is why illusion ( _bhranti_ ) prevails in this world. When a person acquires the awareness of 'What am I?', that is when he is considered to have awareness of ' _vastutva'_ (the Self). And once this awareness is attained, _purnatva_ – the absolute Self state will automatically continue to take place. The awareness of _vastutva_ (the Self) is attained through the science that separates the Self from the non-Self ( _bheda_ _vignan_ ). Awareness of the Self ( _vastutva_ ) happens when the separation between the non-Self ( _jada_ ) and Self ( _chetan_ ) is made.

And you can never call anyone a _nastic_ (without existence), in this world. Can you call anyone an a _nastik_? No one is born a _nastik_ and when a person says, 'I am an _nastik_ ', that is his ego ( _vikalp_ ). But no one is born a _nastik_. What does _nastik_ mean? It is that which does not have existence. But your presence itself is proof of your existence. The one saying, 'I am a _nastik_ ', is proof itself of his existence. And the word ' _nastik_ ' is a _vikalp_. _Vikalp_ is a kind of an ego such as 'I am _nastik_ and he is _astik_.'

**Questioner** : It's like this, at the moment he is not able to establish existence; he is not even able to feel the existence. His existence is there but he is not able to have the conviction of it. Is that not how it is?

**Dadashri** : No. There can never be any such person who does not have a sense of 'I am' ( _astitva_ ). Everyone has this feeling of 'I am'. The words 'I am' themselves proclaim one's existence.

It is like this, every living being has its existence and it is aware of that existence ( _astitva_ ). Every living being is aware of, 'I am' and that awareness never leaves. One is aware of 'I am' even when one is asleep. So, one definitely has that awareness. But one is not able to attain the awareness of _vastutva_ ; one does not have the awareness of 'Who am I?' If a Gnani Purush gives him that knowledge and it manifests, then he will advance.

What 'we' are saying is that every _jiva_ is aware of its existence, but not of 'its' Self ( _vastutva_ ). If one realizes 'Who he is' ( _vastutva_ ), then it will continue towards the absolute state. And the state of the absolute is _niralumb_ (independent), it happens on its own; naturally and spontaneously. Just as after the second day of lunar fortnight moon ( _bija_ ), there follows the third day of moon ( _trija_ ), and then the fourth day of moon ( _choth_ ); all that happens naturally on its own, does it not? There will not be any problems if you do not become obstinate. If you uproot that 'plant' of Gnan; then it becomes a problem. If at times it happens to get uprooted, you should know how to replant it.

When everything is clarified, you will find that the Self remains the same. As many kind of people as there are, or as many kinds of _jivas_ as there are, there are that many kinds of soul but none of them is a real _Atma_. They are all mechanical _atmas_. Do you understand all that?

## Is knowing the knowledge of the Self enough? No.

Please do not make any capitals in heading here or else the meaning changes

**Questioner** : Can we say that the one who knows _Atmagnan_ (Knowledge of the Self) also has _paudgalik_ knowledge (knowledge of the non-Self)?

**Dadashri** : Actually one does not have to know _Atmagnan_ ; one just has to come into awareness of the Self. The state of unawareness one is in; one does not have awareness of one's Self – that is the awareness ( _bhaan, jagruti_ ) one has to attain. We can use the medium of words that 'it has to be 'known'' but truly one has to come into awareness of the Self. Hence, even our experts of scriptural knowledge ( _shastra gnanis_ ) know about _Atmagnan_ but they are not able to attain the awareness of _Atma_. They have knowledge of everything; they know all the scriptures by heart and they know that 'the Self is like this; it is exactly like this'; they know all this but they do not have awareness of the Self.

## Which method is easier? To know the pudgal or the Self?

There are only two things in all this; the _Atma_ (Self) and the _pudgal_ (non-Self). The One who knows the _Atma_ , 'understands' the _pudgal_ , and if he knows the _pudgal_ , then he understands the _Atma_. But to understand the _pudgal_ is not possible; it is not an easy feat to understand the _pudgal_. It is possible to know the _Atma_ , the Self, through the help of a Gnani Purush.

Those involved in Vedanta ( _Vedantis_ ), have tried to know the _pudgal_ , they wrote the four _Vedas_ for that. The reason being that one can know the _Atma_ after knowing the _pudgal_. But they got tired of trying. So the four _Vedas_ say, "This is not that, this is not that." The _Vedantis_ went to inquire into _pudgal_ ; whereas the _keval Gnanis_ (those with absolute Self knowledge) came enquiring through the approach of 'who am I in fact?' – Search for this answer and the rest is all _pudgal_.

So it is not possible to know the _pudgal_ alone, it is something very profound and deep. No one other than a Gnani Purush can understand it. Its meaning is so very deep and its skills are so miraculous ( _karamat_ ) that it is something different altogether. That talk is entirely different. The whole world has become entangled. One does not like a fight and yet he has to do it!

If one knows the _pudgal_ (non-Self) completely, then he knows the _chetan_ (the Self). Or if he knows the _chetan_ completely, then he knows the _pudgal_. If you know what is wheat then you will recognize the grit mixed in it. And if you know what grit is, you will recognize the wheat.

**Questioner** : So one can reach either way?

**Dadashri** : Yes. One can reach by any path. It will work even if you have a preference towards a certain path. That is why I tell people - because many of them who come here say, 'Sir, I am in _agnanta_ (ignorant)'. Hey you! You are not even in ignorance! You will know Gnan if you understand _agnanta_ – ignorance completely. Here one does not have even complete ignorance. This is simply _ardhadaghdha_ (neither here nor there). What does that mean? One half of the log is charcoal and the other half is wood – what do people call that?

**Questioner** : ' _Ardhadaghdha_ '.

**Dadashri** : Yes. So you tell the carpenter, 'Sir, take this.' He will tell you, 'No. What will I do with it?' And if you tell the coal merchant to take it away, he will tell you, 'What will I do with the wood?' So no one will take it, neither the carpenter nor the coal merchant. That is how the world is running – half baked, _ardhadaghdha._

## One will find the Atma even if he knows complete ignorance - agnan

One spends his whole day in worries only. And the 'gnan' (scriptures) is sitting on the shelf. Hey you! It is still good even if there is _agnan_ ignorance! Find me one man in India who has attained _agnan_ \- ignorance. Even if he has attained _agnan_ ignorance, I would tell him, 'Currently you know this shore, you will know the other shore too.' But one has not understood even the other shore. He is standing on the shore and yet he has no awareness of which shore he is standing on. So he has not even become an _agnani_. He should know either the 'wheat' or the 'grit'; then he will know both.

So the four _Vedas_ say 'this is not that... this is not that... _na iti...na iti_ ', but they did not even complete that _agnan_. Had they completed the _agnan_ , there would not have been any reason to say 'this is not that', and the other 'Gnan' (Knowledge) would have presented itself. But they got tired of saying 'this is not that'. The _Veda_ analyses the details of Gnan and _agnan_ but if _agnan_ were allowed to be completed, then the _Atma_ , Gnan, would have presented itself. But they did not allow it to be complete.

## The world - as it is

Discuss whatever you want openly. Here will be said, exactly the way it really is. 'We' (the Gnani Purush and 'Dada Bhagwan' within) will say 'no' to 'that which is not' and 'yes' to 'that which is'. 'We' cannot say 'yes' to 'what is not' and 'no' to 'what is'. 'We' are responsible for every word 'we' say. And 'we' have all the facts for all the way to _moksha_ , because not even for a second have I ever become the owner of this body; I have never become the owner of this mind. This speech that is being spoken; it is the original "tape record" that is speaking; I am not speaking. That tape record is the 'speaker' ( _vakta_ ), you are the 'listener' ( _shrota_ ) and I am the Knower-Seer ( _Gnata-Drashta_ ). Hence this interaction is different. That is why all these solutions come. When not a single solution is sought for, know that Gnan has manifested. There is nothing but constant and continuous resolution, when there is closure ( _samadhan_ ) always – that is called Gnan. In any condition or circumstance, at any given time, that which maintains closure, that is called Gnan. The rest is _agnan_. So say whatever you want to. The Gnani Purush is higher than, the Knower of the four _Vedas_.

You can ask any kind of question you have, because 'we' 'see' and then 'we' speak. I do not speak a single word read from books. I say it as I 'see' it and that is why it benefits people. And then I am also not the speaker, it is a 'tape record' that does the talking and I am just the 'Knower-Seer' ( _Gnata-Drashta_ ).

## Vedas is theoretical, Science is practical

'We' are above ( _the Gnata_ , Knower) of the four _Vedas_. When one finishes learning the four _Vedas_ , that is when the _Vedas_ say, 'This is not that'.

**Questioner** : Why are the words ' _Veda_ ' and 'Gnan', two separate words?

**Dadashri** : _Vedas_ are intellect based ( _buddhijanya_ ), they are associated with _kriya_ (activity through mind, speech and body). _Vedas_ are _trigunatmak,_ in the three _gunas_ (attributes: _satva, rajas and tamas_ ), whereas Gnan is not intellect mediated; it is beyond the _trigunatmak_ and it is _chetan_ (the Self). By nature Gnan is always _chetan_.

**Questioner** : So the scripture of the Veda, is full with knowledge-Gnan, no?

**Dadashri** : That knowledge does not help one attain _moksha_.

It is just a _sadhangnan_ (means to attain knowledge) and not _sadhyagnan_ (knowledge of the goal, the Self) It is _sadhangnan_ , therefore it is mediated through intellect. Therefore, the _Veda_ itself says 'This is not that'. The _Atma_ that you are looking for cannot be here. It is indescribable ( _avarnaniya_ ), not expressible ( _avyaktvya_ ), it has no words, whereas _Veda_ is in the form of words. So go to a Gnani from whom you can attain the Self. He will say 'This is that' (he will give you the experience of the Self).

_Veda_ is intellect mediated knowledge ( _buddhijanya_ _gnan_ ), whereas this Gnan is _chetangnan_ (the Self). Intellect mediated knowledge means - what is the difference between intellect ( _buddhi_ ) and Gnan? Gnan is direct knowledge; _buddhi_ is indirect knowledge. _Veda_ is knowledge in the form of words, so it is intellect mediated knowledge. _Veda_ is theoretical and Gnan is practical.

**Questioner** : Does that mean it is _anubhavgamya_ \- that which can be experienced?

**Dadashri** : Yes, it is something that can be experienced and that is real knowledge, Gnan. The rest is theoretical knowledge, which is in the form of words. And beyond the words, way beyond the words is _chetangnan_ (knowledge as the Self). It is not expressible ( _avyaktvya_ ); it is indescribable ( _avarnaniya_ ). _Atma_ cannot be described; the _Vedas_ cannot do it at all.

Nevertheless the _Veda_ is a guiding tool. It does not help you attain the ultimate thing ( _sadhya vastu,_ the Self). You will not attain anything if you do not meet a Gnani Purush.

**Questioner** : The difference between Gnan and _Veda_ – is it just a difference of words? Is it just an intellectual exercise?

**Dadashri** : It is intellect excercise only.

_Veda_ itself is intellect mediated, it is _trigunatmak_ (possessing three qualities: _satva, rajas and tamas_ ), Gnan is not; it is a science ( _vignan_ ). _Vignan_ is the real Gnan and this _Veda_ knowledge is a means ( _sadhan_ ).

**Question** : That is correct. But both the words 'Gnan' and ' _vignan_ ' (science) have been used in one place in the _Vedas_.

**Dadashri** : That _'vignan'_ can not become applicable at all. The _Vedas_ guide one towards the science ( _vignan_ ), they point it out. But the _vignan_ itself is indescribable (a _varnaniya_ ); it is not expressible ( _avyaktvya_ ). It cannot be found in books.

**Questioner** : It is said ' _satyam gnanam,_ knowledge is truth ', is it not? Also it has been said ' _anantam Bhrahma,_ I am the infinite Self _'_!

**Dadashri** : The words are correct, are they not? However, _Veda_ is _trigunatmak,_ it has nothing to do with anything else.

**Questioner** : But is Gnan not _trigunatmak_?

**Dadashri** : The knowledge that is based on the three _gunas_ is based on intellect. The _Veda_ does only one thing, and that is, it develops the worldly life ( _sansar_ ). It slowly develops that which is mediated by intellect ( _buddhijanya_ ) and at the same time one's work will be done if he meets a Gnani Purush on the way; all he needs is a _nimit_ (someone instrumental to attain that), that is all. Without a _nimit_ , his work will not be done.

The _Veda_ says that all the intellect based knowledge is contained in this and that is called the _Vedant_. Now _Gnanjanya Gnan_ (experiential Knowledge of the Self, that arises from Gnan) means science ( _vignan_ ). You have to become enter it to become familiar with it.

##  The Gnani is the evidence of moksha

**Questioner** : The _Veda_ has mentioned twelve steps that go from the human pleasures to the bliss of the Self ( _brahmanand_ ), and there is a description about how one can proceed towards each step.

**Dadashri** : On the final step, the twelfth step, one will come to know that 'sugar is sweet', but he does not have the experience (knowledge) of what 'sweet' is.

When one reaches the twelfth step, he becomes convinced that, 'This thing is absolutely 'sweet' and there is no need for anything else besides this.'But what does 'sweet' mean, is what he seeks there. Th There if he meets a Gnani Purush, that _nimit_ , who then 'puts it in his mouth' that "This is that." – the Gnani gives him the experience of the Self.

**Questioner** : Now You say that Gnan is an inner thing, and _Veda_ is inner gnan. So is Gnan in _Veda_ or is _Veda_ in Gnan?

**Dadashri** : Gnan is in the _Veda_ ; _Veda_ is in Gnan but _Vignan_ is outside of the _Vedas_.

**Questioner** : Gnan and _Vignan_ are both given in the _Veda_.

**Dadashri** : They are just words; they are not the real thing. They have written 'it is sweet', but the experience is not written. There is no experience in what is theoretical.

**Questioner** : The ancient sages and ascetics had the experience, did they not?

**Dadashri** : Yes, but that experience is not so easily attained. Such experience is attained from an experienced person who is a _nimit_ (instrumental in the process); otherwise it does not happen. Not everyone can do that, there is a Gnani Purush there as a _nimit_ in the middle.

**Questioner** : Even in the _Veda_ it says that one cannot do without a _guru._

**Dadashri** : Any talk that invalidates the _guru_ , is all crazy talk.

**Questioner** : For this established ( _siddha_ ) fact, the sages and the ascetics who are proof of this established fact; are no longer around.

**Dadashri** : What is that thing which is established like? That _siddha vastu,_ (the Self), is natural ( _sahaj_ ), easily understood ( _sugam_ ) but its attainment is very very rare ( _durlabha_ ). This is because you have to meet the One who has already attained it, so that you too can attain it. The one who has attained it is liberated ( _mukta_ ) and independent ( _swatantra_ ); he is someone who does not have a single thought about the worldly life. He does not have sexual thoughts; he has no thoughts about his existence ( _astitva_ ); he has no 'I-ness' ( _potapanu_ ). Your work can be done where there is no 'I-ness'.

Someone like you comes and asks me, 'Sugar is sweet, give me a taste of that'. So then I will put it in his mouth, 'this is that'! (That is the experience of the Self) From then on, he is completely in the Self, not even for a moment will he be out of that realm. He will constantly remain in the Self; he will have complete awareness of the Self twenty-four hours a day. This world is asleep (spiritually) with its eyes open. The only exceptions are the thinkers of the Self; the rest are sleeping with open eyes.

## Even the word is temporary

**Questioner** : 'Word' ( _shabda_ ) is eternal ( _nitya_ ) but many say that 'word' transitory ( _anitya_ ), so then what is the truth?

**Dadashri** : Word is transient; temporary.

**Questioner** : Some say that 'word' is eternal.

**Dadashri** : No matter how many people say so but I will tell you that this is the ultimate truth for once and for all. Thereafter whatever they may say, 'we' do not have any insistence about it.

Whatever truth ( _satya_ ) there is in this world; it too is not true ( _astaya_ ). It too, is untrue. The truth is always eternal and natural. And this word is not natural. Words come out when there is friction. Therefore, words are circumstance.They happen due to two or three circumstances , and therefore it is not a natural thing.

**Questioner** : That is correct that words are temporary, transient. The _Veda_ is made up of the words and yet the _Veda_ is considered eternal.

**Dadashri** : There is nothing in such talk that is believed. What is the definition of eternal? It is that which is indestructible ( _avinashi_ ), it will be for always and that which is in its elemental form ( _vastu swaroop_ ). It is that in which no changes happen; it remains the same in its attributes ( _swabhav_ ) and the attributes never change. The Self ( _Atma_ ) is permanent. The element of space ( _akaash_ ) is permanent. _Pudgal_ these _parmanus_ which is an element, which is the smallest indivisible part of an atom, is a permanent element. _Gatisahayak_ _tattva_ (motion), the element that moves, is permanent. And time ( _kaad_ ) element is also permanent. Therefore, these are the only six things that are _nirvikalpi_ (that which does not move away from its nature) truth in this world, that are natural and do not undergo any change.

## Even the means to attain the Self is vikalp

**Questioner** : The technology of the _Vedas_ , it shows an approach; is that the truth ( _satya_ ) ?

**Dadashri** : It helps. It helps the one who has gone on the wrong path to turn around and come back. But it is of no help if one has not taken the wrong path.

The _Vedas_ ; no matter how people refer to them; but actually it has its origin from what Lord Rushabhdev has said.

**Questioner** : That is true. What is the truth in ' _Omkar'_?

**Dadashri** : There is a lot of truth in the 'Omkar', but which truth? It is a _vikalpi_ (through the ego) truth. Neverthelss this _vikalpi_ truth is one that can take one towards the _nirvikalpi_ truth (eternal truth). It is a path; it is a road-way.

**Questioner** : The Self or _Brahma_ ( _sadhya_ , the goal) is complete and absolute, but the means to attain it ( _sadhan_ ) is incomplete, but with regards to the current time cycle, can it attain the goal?

**Dadashri** : It can happen if other circumstances come together. But ultimately, there must be the one circumstance. The circumstance of coming together with a _nirvikalpi guru_ (one who has attained the Self); but that person has to be a Gnani Purush, the One who has nothing more left to know in this world. There is nothing left in this world that he does not have knowledge (experience) of.

**Questioner** : What is a _nirvikalp purush_ like?

**Dadashri** : There is not an iota of _buddhi_ (intellect) in a _nirvikalp_ person; that is why He is called a ' _nirvikalp purush'_.

**Questioner** : So, in the Gita, they have described _kshar purush_ and _akshar purush_ , does ' _akshar purush_ ' mean a _nirvikalp_ _purush_?

**Dadashri** : _Kshar_ (perishable) is this body and _akshar is vikalpi._ And beyond _kshar-akshar_ is _nirvikalpi_ (One in the state of the Self, egoless).

## Vikalp makes one miss out the final opportunity

I know the _Atma_. If you tell me, 'give me the _Atma_ (the Self); I would give it to you.

**Questioner** : But I want to live in the worldly interactive life ( _vyavahar_ ).

**Dadashri** : So then you can live a worldly interactive life, but that life and interactions therein ( _vyavahar_ ) should be ideal. When can you say that you have attained the _Atma_ (Self)? It is only when your interaction at home is ideal. Otherwise it is not just mere talk of running away and being all-alone in the caves. _Atma_ is not something for the people to go away into the solitude of caves. That is something that is on trial. When one's worldly interactions ( _vyavahar_ ) is ideal, then there is no anger-pride-deceit-greed in it. He has good relations with his neighbors, good relationship with his wife at home.

**Questioner** : But the Self is not to be searched; Self-realization happens spontaneously, no?

**Dadashri** : Where the path has broken down, people have created an 'ornamental path'. When, in the main path, twelve or more droughts happened, the path broke down, and there they erected 'ornamental paths.' The 'ornamental path' declared that the truth will be found through one's own efforts. Just look at this! For everything else, it is only possible if one goes to college and yet this will come to you even if you are sitting at home?

Otherwise, a _vikalpi_ (with ego) can never become _nirvikalpi_ ( _egoless_ ). A _vikalpi_ seed can never become _nirvikalpi_ ; people just grope around in vain. A _nimit_ is needed. _Vikalpi_ and _nirvikalpi_ , is just a difference in the viewpoint. If his vision becomes _nirvikalpi_ , if someone does that for him, then he can become _nirvikalp_. All that is needed is a change in vision. This is not something that is attainable through studying ( _abhyaas_ ). If it were possible through studying, then one would study. But really it is a completely different vision.

Therefore, one will become _nirvikalp_ when he realizes the Self. When he becomes _nirvikalp_ , his ego ( _ahamkar_ ) and 'my-ness' ( _mamata_ ) will go away, that is all. The ego and 'my-ness' that go away; are all the _vyatirek gunas_ (new attributes that arise due to two eternal elements coming together) that go away. 'My-ness' is greed and deceit ( _lobha_ and _kapat_ ). Ego is anger and pride ( _krodha_ and _maan)._ This is how these four attributes of anger, pride, deceit and greed arose. The Gnani Purush separates two things for you. He separates the two, the Self and the non-Self ( _Atma_ and _anatma_ ) by placing a line of demarcation between the two and thus they become separate. But otherwise the two are separate anyway.

## After becoming free from intellect One becomes one with others

**Questioner** : But do the _Vedas_ not give descriptions on oneness ( _abhedata_ )?

**Dadashri** : Yes, but everyone has described oneness ( _abheda_ ) anyway, have they not? But it is difficult to attain a state of oneness. One cannot attain a state of oneness until he 'dissolves' the _Veda_ and 'drinks' it (completely transcends the _Vedas_ ). Because as long as the intellect does not leave; one cannot become _abheda_. The intellect creates divisiveness ( _bheda_ ). Who creates differences and divisions? Those people with intellect, they do so.

Now, how long would it take if you wanted to make your whole town _abuddha_ (without intellect)? How long does it take to make someone completely without _buddhi_? Is it possible to do so instantly?

**Questioner** : No.

**Dadashri** : Then, until then, one cannot become _abheda_. When the intellect goes away, one becomes _abheda_. The intellect creates differences ( _bheda_ ), 'this is mine and that is yours.' It, _buddhi_ is what makes one emotional.

**Questioner** : Does the _buddhi_ (intellect) make one emotional or does the heart do that?

**Dadashri** : No, it is the _buddhi_. The _abuddha_ has a heart.

**Questioner** : The scriptures have called _buddhi_ , ' _nischayatmika,_ the one making _nischaya_ , has it not?

**Dadashri** : Yes, the _buddhi_ makes decision, yet it makes one emotional.

## The science of separation and the Vetta

_Atma_ is not something that can be contained in the _Vedas_. The words of the _Veda_ are of a gross ( _sthool_ ) language, whereas the _Atma_ is very subtle ( _shookshmattam_ ). How can the two be aligned? One is gross, the other is the subtlest; how can the _Veda_ describe that? _Atma_ is indescribable ( _avarnaniya_ ) and inexpressible ( _avyaktvya_ ), there are no words for it, and so it can never be placed in the _Veda_. They say, ' _Veda_ is the knower of everything of this world, then who would know beyond the _Veda_?' So then they say, 'No one below the _Veda_ would know. Even the _Vedas_ do not know. Only the Gnani Purush who transcends the _Veda_ ; would know what _Atma_ is.The Gnani Purush would even tell you, 'this is that, this is that'.

**Questioner** : How can one go from 'this is not that' to 'this is that'?

**Dadashri** : It requires the science of separation ( _bheda vignan_ ) to go from 'this is not that' to 'this is that'. And no one but the Gnani Purush has that science of separation.

Whenever Gnanis arise, they take only few people with them, but this is Akram Vignan. Vignan means that this is _chetan_ , therefore 'You' do not have to do anything. The Gnan itself will caution you. The Gnan itself will continue to do all the work. So, this is Akram Vignan.

_Veda_ is in the form of Gnan, and the _Vetta_ (the Knower) is in the form of _Vignan_ ( _Vignan Swaroop_ ). Knowledge ( _gnan_ ) is not self-propogating, like 'autopilot' ( _kriyakari_ ), _Vignan_ is _kriyakari._

**Questioner** : In describing the one who is ' _Vignan Swaroop_ ', even the _Vedas_ got tired!

**Dadashri** : Yes they became tired. Because how can _Veda_ understand the _Vetta_ (the Knower) _?_ _Vetta_ can understand _Veda_ , but how can it be possible for _Veda_ to understand _Vetta_? What is _Vetta_? Knower! It is the Knower-Seer ( _Gnata_ - _Drashta_ ). In appearance the word ' _Vetta'_ seems small, does it not?

## Where can one attain the Atma?

You can ask everything here, you can ask about the four _Vedas_ and you can ask about the four _Anuyogas_ of Jain literature You can ask about Jainism, Vedanta or even the Kuran, because you can ask the One who has gone beyond the _Veda_ , about the _Veda_.

**Questioner** : How can one go beyond the _Vedas_?

**Dadashri** : You can go beyond the _Vedas_ when 'You' attain the 'light of the Gnan' ( _Gnan prakash_ ).

**Questioner** : So it is not something that is medaited through intellect ( _buddhigamya_ ), is it?

**Dadashri** : No, it is not mediated through intellect. Whatever is medited through the intellect, is all in the _Vedas_. And to go beyond the intellect, one has to 'go to a Gnani', who is intellect-free ( _abuddha_ ). Go to the one who is considered _abuddha_ (without _buddhi_ ); go to such a Gnani Purush so that you can attain the _Atma_ from him. Otherwise you will not attain it. Those with intellect cannot give you the _Atma_. There cannot be any _buddhi_ where there is _Atma_ and where there is _buddhi_ , there cannot be _Atma_.

**Questioner** : By studing the Jain religion one can attain knowledge of the Self ( _Atmagnan_ ); is that what you are saying?

**Dadashri** : No. And neither is it possible to attain Knowledge of the Self by studying the four _Vedas_. When the four _Vedas_ end, they themselves say, 'this is not that'. The _Atma_ that you are searching for, is not in these. Therefore go to a Gnani. _Atma_ can not be contained in a book. _Atma_ is indescribable ( _avarnaniya_ ) and inexpressible ( _avyaktvya_ ), so it cannot be put in books. So, it is the work of a Gnani Purush. Only he who has attained the _Atma_ can show others the _Atma_. No one else in the world can do that.

**Questioner** : They cannot show us but they can help us study that, can they not?

**Dadashri** : They can just direct you; they can point things out for you; so that you get a rough feeling about it. But they cannot give you the experience of the real thing ( _Atma_ ).

**Questioner** : But they can experience their _Atma_ , by their own efforts, can they not?

**Dadashri** : No, it is not like that. No one other than a Gnani Purush can make the realization of the Self, possible. No one has ever done that. Only the one who is liberated; can liberate others. How can the one, who is trapped in worldly entanglements himself, free others from it? Therefore one needs a savior ( _tarantaran_ _purush_ ). He who has swam (across the worldly ocean) himself, is able to help many others to do the same. That is where you will find the solution.

**Questioner:** Can the Self be realized by studying spoken speech of the enlightened Ones ( _shrut vani_ )?

**Dadashri:** Studying the _shrut vani_ is helpful. The chit becomes strong (steady) with _shrut vani_. Day by day the chit becomes clean. And if the chit is clean and one happens to meet a Gnani Purush, then he will be able to absorb the Gnan very well.

**Questioner** : Gnan can be attained from a _guru_ , but only from a _guru_ who has experienced the _Atma_ himself, is that so?

**Dadashri** : He has to be a 'Gnani Purush', but it is not enough to just give you the experience of the Self ( _Atma_ ). The Gnani Purush will give you answers to questions such as, 'how does the world run?', 'Who am I?', 'What is all this?' It is possible to get your work done only when he gives such explanations.

But otherwise if you simply follow books, the books will help you, but they are not the main thing. They are just ordinary means; they are not extraordinary. What is an extraordinary and unique cause? The Gnani Purush!

## Just one staircase but different steps

**Questioner** : _Jain darshan, Vedanta, Advita vada, Soham, Aham Brahmasmi, Ekoham Bahushyam, Sarva Idam Brahma_ ; are all these the same?

**Dadashri** : Just as a staircase, a ladder, all these are just one and the same, but from the perspective of steps, they are considered different.

## Atma, neither dvaita nor advaita, it is dvait-advait

**Questioner** : I want to understand _dvaita_ and _advaita_ ; please explain them.

**Dadashri** : You tell me what you understand by ' _advaita'_.

**Questioner** : That 'I am the only truth; apart fron 'I', there is no other truth. What I am is the only truth there is. Anything else that apparently feels like it, is not the truth' – that is called _Advaita._

**Dadashri** : So then where is the need to look for the truth at all? If 'I am the only truth'; then there is no need to search for the truth. So then why do you read books? Your doctrine says 'I am the truth', does it not?

**Questioner** : Does one not have to read books inorder to have devotion for the doctrine and to strengthen it?

**Dadashri** : But this doctrine is not correct. What is your name?

**Questioner** : Chandubhai.

**Dadashri** : So is Chandubhai the truth?

**Questioner** : Chandubhai is the name and the name is not the truth.

**Dadashri** : So then, what is the truth? You become the truth and then speak.

**Questioner** : Truth cannot be conveyed through words, can it?

**Dadashri** : Even then, who are you? You feel offended if someone says, 'Chandubhai has no sense'. If you are affected, then you are Chandubhai for sure.

**Questioner** : I am Chandubhai as long as it affects me, is that so?

**Dadashri** : Yes, if it does not affect you even if someone curses you, then I will know that you have entered the corner of _advaita_ (the doctrine that the individual soul and the absolute are one; monism) and that you do not yet understand _advaita_ yet.

Now, I will explain _dvaita_ and _advaita_ to you. You do wish to understand it, do you not?

**Questioner** : Yes, for sure.

**Dadashri** : Does _advaita_ have support or is it independent?

**Questioner** : Independent.

**Dadashri** : And _dvaita_?

**Questioner** : Having come into _advaita_ , then there is no _dvaita_ at all.

**Dadshri** : This is the kind of wrong things they teach, 'then there is no _dvaita_ at all!' And when it comes to the worldly life, if his pocket gets picked, he gets upset and starts shouting. Hey you! Then where did this _dvaita_ come from? Then he will say, 'Call the police, this guy is a thief, he is the one who robbed me.' Hey you! You just said, 'there is no _dvaita_ ', so then where did that _dvaita_ come from. You too are full of _dvaita_. I am not criticizing you here, but if you want to understand the right thing, then _advaita_ is not like this. And until then how can one experience the bliss of the Self even for a moment? Do you understand?

_Advaita_ is not an independent, supportless thing. _Advaita_ is there on the basis of _dvaita_. Do you understand on what it is dependent upon?

**Questioner** : _Advaita_ is relative to _dvaita_ ( _dvaita_ is required for it).

**Dadashri** : Yes, _advaita_ is in relation to _dvaita_. And anything that is in relation to something else, is considered as being relative ( _sapeksha_ \- not independent). And that which is relative can never become _nirpeksha_ (independent). So people have defined _advaita_ as independent. If one were to understand the facts, then one can have a solution.

**Questioner** : But we believe in only the _nirpeksha_ (independent).

**Dadashri** : One should believe in only the _nirpeksha_. But should one not understand _nirpeksha_?

**Questioner** : We take _advaita_ as _nirpeksha_.

**Dadashri** : Yes. You have done all that on your own.You did all that on your own, that meaning depends on your mind accepts. But as a rule it cannot be acceptable, can it? If you want to deduce the meaning of _nirpeksha_ by waht your mind accepts, then it is possible. But it cannot be considered legitimate, can it? It is legitimate that I ask, 'Is _advaita_ baseless or is it is based on something?' One would say, 'it is based on something. Based on what? They will say, 'based on the _dvaita_ '. It is _advaita_ in relation to _dvaita_ , and _advaita_ is relative. And people call it _nirpeksha_. Does your soul accept this? Your _atma_ should accept what I am saying, because what I am saying is correct. I am one who is beyond taking any sides. Those involved in partiality can never be true. You should listen to those who are not involved in impartial.

Do you understand that _advaita_ is a relative thing?

**Questioner** : Yes.

**Dadashri** : The _advaita_ that you believed to be _nirpeksha_ (real), it turned out to be relative ( _sapeksha_ ). Do you now realize where you were wrong?

**Questioner** : Yes.

**Dadashri** : Those believing in _advaita_ ask me, 'So then what is _Atma_ (Self) like?' I tell them, ' _Atma_ is not _advaita_ at all and neither is it _dvaita_. It is _dvaitadvait_ (beyond duality and non-duality).'

What does _dvaitadvait_ mean? It means that by the relative viewpoint _atma_ is _dvaita_. The relative viewpoint will always be there as long as there is this body. Does one not have to go to the bathroom? Does he not have to eat? That is through the relative view point, and therefore the _Atma_ (Self) is _dvaita_. And by the real viewpoint, _Atma_ is _advaita_. And then when it goes to _moksha_ , it does not have any adjective. It has adjectives only as long as there is a body. These adjectives of _dvaita_ and _advaita_ exist because of the body. But no adjective applies to it once it goes to _moksha_. By the relative viewpoint 'I' am _dvaita_ and by the real view point 'I' am _advaita_. Hence I am _dvaitadvait_. _Advaita_ alone cannot exist as long as there is the body.

What is the real purpose for saying ' _advaita_ '? So that one does not apply the awareness ( _upayoga_ ) on the 'foreign department' (the non-Self). That is the intent behind _advaita_. Remain in the home department (the Self) and do not have _upayoga_ in the foreign department (non-Self). Home means it is _advaita_ and foreign is _dvaita_. But instead of that intent, people took it the wrong way. Right now you believe the foreign to be the home. You say, 'I am Chandubhai'. You have not seen the home yet. You will not have any worries when 'You' see the 'home'; you will not have any restlessness, there will be _samadhi_ (unaffected state of the Self) even in _upadhi_ (externally induced problems and resultant suffering)!

## Dvaita-advaita; both are duality

A man came to me and tells me, 'I have become _advaita_.' I said to him, 'Now where did you come up with that word? What do you call _advaita_?' He replied, 'I do not remain in the _dvaita_.' So I asked him, 'then where do you remain?' He told me, 'I remain in the _Atma_.' Hey! When did you become this way? _Advaita_ cannot exist on its own. _Advaita_ is dependent. What does it depend on? It is depends on the _dvaita_. It has the support of the _dvaita_ , otherwise _advaita_ will fall off. Therefore, _advaita_ continues as long as there is _dvaita_. By saying 'I am _advaita_ ' you are doing _dwesh_ (abhorrence) towards _dvaita_. So what will happen? You will then fight. So he says, 'Yes, that is true. But we believed _advaita_ to be _nirpeksha_.' Hey! How can you call a dependent thing ' _nirpeksha_ '(independent, without expectations, the Self)? _Advaita_ is a relative thing.

There are many words that are beyond duality. Certain words like 'compassion' ( _karuna_ ) are beyond the duality. Whereas the word ' _advaita_ ' - it is _advaita_ because there is _dvaita_. So that is considered as duality. Therefore there is _advaita_ because there is _dvaita_. Therefore, one has not gone beyond the duality, one is still in it. _Advaita,_ is also considered a duality, do you understand that? Just as profit-loss, right-wrong, pleasure-pain, are considered dualities. Similarly, the pair of _dvaita_ _advaita_ is duality. Just as where there is kindness, there is bound to be cruelty there too. So if there is a kind person, then you should realize that 'O ho ho! There is cruelty in him too.' That is how _dvaita_ and _advaita_ are in duality. It is not a _dvandvatita_ state (state beyond dualities). So the one who says, 'I am _advaita_ ' is still in duality. How much problem and suffering there is in that duality? The one who is in _advaita_ will have the notion day and night of 'this is _dvaita_...this is _dvaita_...this is _dvaita_ ' – this is what he does all day long. As if _dvaita_ is going to bite him. Therefore this _dvaita_ and _advaita_ are dualities. One has to go even beyond that.

You can call it as _dvaita_ if you say, ' _Karma_ and I; both are there'. That is called _dvaita_. So the _advaita_ says, 'I am the only one, there is no such thing as _karma_.' So _dvaita_ and _advaita_ are not there by themselves alone. That is because the Self ( _Atma_ ) is _dvaitadvaita_. _Atma_ cannot be only _dvaita_ and it cannot be only _advaita_. In relation to the worldly life ( _sansar_ ), when it comes into connection to the worldly life, it is _dvaita_. And if 'It' remains as the Self, then it is _advaita_. Therefore, when 'we' remain as the Self, 'we' are completely _advaita_.

## When will the experience of advaita come?

**Questioner** : Can _advaita_ be experienced? Who experiences it?

**Dadashri** : _Advaita_ can be experienced. After experiencing _dvaita_ , one can then experience _advaita_. This worldly life ( _sansar_ ) is by nature, _dvaita_. After experiencing that, one can then experience the _advaita_. When he will not fight with his wife, when he will not fight with his father, when he will not have any quarrels with anyone; when he has such an experience, then he will have the experience of _advaita_. Only the one, who has the experience of the _dvaita_ , will have the experience of the _advaita_.

'What is _advaita_?' That is what one has to know. This is all for the purpose of knowing the Self, the _Atma_. One is doomed to wander endlessly, if one does not come to know the _Atma_ , the Self. And those who are in duality have all been wandering around. Those who are in duality cannot be called as being in _advaita_. What does duality mean? It means those who have right-wrong, profit-loss; if they have such duality, they cannot be considered _advaita_.

## Going beyond dualities advaita is experienced

_Advaita_ is the one who has become _dvandvatita_ (One who is beyond dualities). _Advaita_ is not falsity. _Advaita_ exists because of the existence of _dvaita_. What is the support behind _advaita_?

**Questioner** : It exists because of the _dvaita_.

**Dadashri** : Yes, therefore it is a relative thing and a relative thing can never become real. _Advaita_ is there because of _dvaita_ ; and whatever it is, it is a relative thing. A relative thing can never become real. And the _Atma_ (the Self) is real. So when one talks about _advaita_ , he is merely talking big and there is no substance in his talks. If he is _advaita_ , then we should prove it to him that, 'Sir, tell us if you are beyond dualities ( _dvandvatita_ ).' If he says, 'I am beyond dualities'; we should believe that. He has to become _dvandvatita_. Profit-loss, pleasure-pain; these are all dualities. He has to be beyond all that; these should not affect him at all. One should go beyond that, they should not affect you.

So whom can you call _advaita_? It is the one who has become _dvandvatita_ ; the one who is beyond duality. Then, things like, profit and loss do not affect him at all. For him, whether someone robs him or showers him with flower, it is all the same. Someone curses him or slaps him; it is all the same. That is called _advaita_.

## What compassion of sharing the Eternal!

So you want to understand _advaita_ , do you not? If you want to understand it, understand it methodically, and do not lose the stillness you possess. 'Methodical' means that what 'we' reveal holds true for the past, the present and the future. No changes can be made to it. 'We' tell the ultimate truth, from which people attain the true facts.

This topic of ' _advaita_ ' is overused and misued heavily these days. It will have to be said to people, 'If anyone wants to understand _advaita_ , they will have to go to 'Dada'. Why are you hanging on to the wrong thing?' If ever someone comes opposing me about this, I do not have any problem. I do not have any problems even if he curses me. I would give him a good meal and pacify him and then I would explain things to him. I would be able to sleep even if cursed me or insulted me but he would not be able to sleep if I were to curse him. So I cannot hurt him and I will be able to sleep. So all this will have to be sorted out, no? How long can it go on? I do not want to 'do' anything in all this. I am simply a _nimit_ (instrumental in the process) and I have received this directive ( _aadesh_ ).

**Questioner** : Whose directive have you received?

**Dadashri** : I have received the directive of the present time ans space ( _deshkaad_ ).

**Questioner** : This talk of yours is 'scientific'!

**Dadashri** : Yes, it is scientific talk. This is because nobody is up there as my superior to give me directives. But I have received the directives from current 'space and time'. The moment people hear the words 'directive' ( _aadesh_ ), someone is bound to feel that there is someone over me. No, there is no one over me. Whoever there is, it is only 'I'. In the relative, I am _laghuttam_ (smallest of all; the lowliest and lighest relative being) and really speaking I am _guruttam_ (the most superior; the heaviest; topmost). So what problems can there be? I do not want to be _guruttam_ in the worldly interaction ( _vyavahar_ ), because those who became _guruttam_ in the worldly life; got four legs from having two legs. That is the rule; all those who were _guruttam_ in the current worldly life became four-legged in the next life. It is only when one is in intent of _laghuttam_ (smallest) in the worldly life that there is a solution.

## Obstinate insistence on one view obstructs Self-realization

Now, one person says that the _Atma_ is a doer and the other says that it is not the doer; they are both in a hole. One is in the hole of _dvaita_ and the other in the hole of the _advaita_. _Atma_ is not like that. It (the Self, the _Atma_ ) is _dvaitadvaita_ (dual-nondual). As the body, the non-Self complex, there is duality ( _dvaita_ ); and as the Self, it is _advaita._ So, if one chooses the _advaita_ hole, then it does not prove the _Atma_. The one with _advaita_ will continue to have confusing thoughts about the one in _dvaita._ And the one with _dvaita_ will keep having confusing thoughts about the one with the _advaita_. Now, they cannot go beyond this _vikalp_ (confusion based on ego). When one experiences the Self as _dvaitadvaita_ , means One has has gone beyond all _vikalp_ (ego based reactions), hence it is called _nirvikalp_.

Therefore, the Gnani Purush says it exactly as it is; that the _Atma_ is _dvaitadvaita_ ; it is _dvaita_ and it is also _advaita_. How long does this adjective of _dvaitadvaita_ (dual-nondual) apply? It is _dvaita_ as long as it is involved in the worldly life, and as long as it is in the Self, then it is _advaita_. As long as there is this body and there is also _keval Gnan_ (absolute Knowledge), till then you can say _dvaitadvaita_. People can see a person and they can also see the _keval Gnani_. One sees according to his vision. Therefore _Atma_ never becomes _advaita_ , because as the body leaves from here and if one attains _moksha_ , then the Self does not have any adjectives (of _dvaita_ or _advaita_ ) when it gets to the _Siddhagati_ (abode of the liberated souls). Adjective applies only as long as there is this body and they both work. Therefore, we should accept the adjectives. Those in the hole of _advaita_ are considered as being ' _ekantik_ ' (adhering to a particular viewpoint to the exclusion of all others) and so do those in the hole of _dvaita_. And if there is any acceptance of any _ekantik_ path, _moksha_ can never be realized. When one becomes _ekantik_ , when one becomes insistent ( _agrahi_ ), one will not be able to attain the truth. In order to attain the truth, one will have to be free from all insistence ( _niragrahi_ ). Insistence verily is the ego.

There is _satya_ (truth) in everyone for sure, but it is within its own level. The worldly truth is not the truth in the language of the Lord. When you say, 'I am Chandubhai, I am his uncle' etc.; that is not the truth of the Lord (eternal truth). It is relative truth; it is not the eternal truth.

It is wrong to be involved in partisanship. Partisanship is a 'standard', and those who remain in a 'standard' are considered as being _ekantik_ (adhering to one viewpoint only). Nevertheless, people should live within the rule that prevails. And there are no rules in final state ( _atyantik_ ). It is _anekant_ (all encompassing, acceptance of all viewpoints). There is no insistence in it. It moves along in 'exactness'. Ultimate salvation is attained through it. Otherwise all these sects and partisanships are 'standards'. It is of worth when one becomes impartial ( _nishpakshapati_ ). When one becomes impartial, one comes 'out of standards'.

I have come to tell you just that which is correct. And if you tell me, 'no! I am right!' then I would not bother with you – where do I have the time? I will not get into unnecessary discussions with you. 'We' will say, 'you are right by your view point', and then 'we' will let go. If you want to understand the truth, 'we' will help you understand it; otherwise it is a waste of time and energy. Many people have attained such wrong knowledge from the wrong vision, how am I going to change everyone? If you want help you can ask me.

Therefore, you should understand _dvaita_ and _advaita_. How can you say _advaita_ in the current time cycle? _Advaita_ was not there to begin with, and I too cannot say _advaita_.

There is no sense in accepting anything without testing it first. If one does not know how to test, then he should not say 'this is how it is'. Even the foreign scientists do not say 'this is how it is' (without testing first). They will say, 'I believe it is this way.'

## The Self is true and world is true too but...

This talk is completely wrong at its very core; it is all verily and totally illusion ( _bhranti_ )! However, it is not entirely wrong either. If you are asleep with your mouth open and someone puts chillies in your mouth, what will happen? Will the illusion ( _mithya_ ) continue to be there, then? They say that the Self is real ( _Brahma_ _satya_ ) and the world is an illusion ( _jagat mithya_ ), but will it appear as an illusion if that happens? This world is relatively correct and _Brahma_ is real correct. That is the only difference. Try saying ' _mithya_ ' when you have a toothache! Have you ever had a toothache? Will you say it is _mithya_ (illusion) when it hurts? Will one say that? Therefore, _Brahma_ is _satya_ (true) and the world is _satya_ too. You have to treat the toothache. If you do not seek treatment, it can become a problem.

**Questioner** : So is this world _satya_ (true) or _mithya_ (illusion)?

**Dadashri** : What do you think it is? What does your experience say?

**Questioner** : _Mithya_.

**Dadashri** : You feel it is _mithya_? Are you not affected when someone insults you? Does it affect you when someone slaps you?

**Questioner** : It does.

**Dadashri** : Then how can you say that the world is not true ( _mithya_ )? How can you call something not true when it is effective? It is effective and therefore this world is not _mithya_ ; it is not an illusion.

If her son-in-law dies, will the mother-in-law not cry? Or is that not a tradition amongst your people?

**Questioner** : Yes she will cry.

**Dadashri** : So then how can you call this _mithya_? Therefore this world is _satya_ (true), but it is a relative _satya_ , a relative truth.

The world is not _mithya_ at all. People would have abandoned this world long time ago if it were _mithya_. This world is true ( _satya_ ). If the world were _mithya_ , then what if you put chilli pepper in someone's mouth if he is sleeping with his mouth open? Will he scream or not? Will you have to wake him up from his sleep? Why? Will he be affected even without being aroused? How will he come to find out? Therefore if the world were _mithya_ , then nothing of the sort would happen. Just look, even the world is true, is it not? But the world is a relative truth, and _Brahma_ the Self is the real truth.

**Questioner** : The world is illuminated by the light of _Brahma_ the Self; is tht why it is a relative truth?

**Dadashri** : Yes it is illuminated by the light of the Self, and that is why it is a relative _satya_ (truth). And it is a relative truth for sure, but it is a temporary truth and _Brahma_ is the eternal truth.

If the world were _mithya_ (illusion), then people would have taken just the _Atma_. But this world too is a truth ( _satya_ ). And that is why people do not let go of the world. Does anyone talk about letting go of it? One will say, 'Come on, let us go shopping.' If you say to him, 'Come I will give you _moksha_.' He will tell you 'Forget that! Just let me run my business happily.' Therefore, the world is real. Does one not say, 'My wife, my children'? Some even go crazy after women; some die for them and even kill themselves! Now would anyone do that if it were not true ( _mithya_ )? Even the pesticide to kill bed bugs is not _mithya_! If someone were to drink it, they would find out whether it is _mithya_ or not! And if someone did drink it, would people not create a commotion? Therefore the Self _Brahma_ is true and the world too is true. The world is a relative truth and the Self is the real truth.

## Will one not have to understand the facts?

**Questioner** : So when they say 'the world is _mithya_ (false, illusion)', that is wrong, is it not?

**Dadashri** : In whatever era of the time cycle it was necessary to define it so, is when it was so defined. But 'exactly' this world has never been _mithya_.

**Questioner** : So then does it appear as _mithya_ due to _maya_ (illusion)?

**Dadashri:** This is not _maya_! What do you call as ' _maya'_? _Maya_ is if a magician produces some money in his hands and it does not affect you at all; that is (understood, seen by you) as _maya_. This world is not like the _maya_ , the kind that people understand.

_Maya_ is to not understand _vastu_ (the Self, the eternal element) exactly as it is. This _maya_ verily does not let you understand everything 'as it is'; that is called _maya_. What do people understand _maya_ as? They will say, 'everything is exactly just this way,' this verily is _maya_. That is not how it is. _Maya_ is that which does not allow one to understand ' _vastu'_ as it is. That is called _maya_.

Otherwise this statement of ' _Brahma_ _satya_ , _jagat_ _mithya'_ (the Self is truth, and the world is false, illusory) was spoken to make people renounce; it is for this reason they used to say, 'dear man, this world is _mithya_. What are you going to get out of this _mithya,_ this illusion? So become a renunciate and renounce and make progress.' The statement was made with this intent. But really one should say it 'as it is'; say it as the world is. Then it will be easy for people to follow that path. Otherwise not everyone will believe it to be _mithya_ , will they? Only a few will accept _mithya_. They may say it is _mithya_ , but they will not accept it as _mithya_. If you give a kite to a child, is he likely to throw it away? If you tell him it is not real (it is _mithya_ ) and that he should throw it away, is he likely to do so? No he will not! So the world is a relative truth. Yes, no one will say it is a real truth. The kite will tear right away, will it not? And at that time the love for it also automatically goes away, does it not? And where the eternal element is concerned, there is no issue of tearing, is there?

Therefore, this world is not false ( _mithya_ ) either; the world is 'relative correct' and the _Atma_ is 'real correct'. 'Relative correct' means it is 'temporary correct'; it is there for only a certain period of time. Some may last for a hundred years, some for five hundred, some for a thousand years, some for five thousand years, whereas some for five years or some for only a year. Those things that last for a limited time, are all temporary, and that which is there in all the three time periods; the past, present and future, is 'real correct'!

Some people come and tell me, 'but no, the world is only _mithya_ (false), is it not?' So I tell them, 'if the world is _mithya_ , then have you seen anyone throwing money in the streets? Will you find money on the road when you go out?" Don't people lose money? People lose money but they don't find it again. So if this world were _mithya_ then no one would take the money if they found it. So the world is not _mithya_. It is true for sure, but it is a relative truth and it is a temporary truth.

_Brahma_ (the Self) is 'real correct'. And everything else that you see with the eyes, all that you experience with the five senses, is all 'relative correct'. There is no wrong thing in this world at all but as long as you have the need for worldly pleasures; as long as you want temporary things, then you have to remain in the relative truth and till then wander about in the relative. And along with that worldly pleasures, there are so many worries, problems of external situations ( _oopadhi_ ); one has to suffer nothing but difficulties. When a person experiences these struggles; that is when he will understands how he suffers. And if you want eternal bliss, go to where there is eternal truth; truth that exists for the past, present and future ( _trikaad_ ). That relative is the 'foreign department' and the 'real' is the 'home department'. Therefore if you want to go 'home' then go 'home' and if you want to remain in the 'foreign' then remain in the 'foreign'. Otherwise if you believe the 'foreign' to be your 'home', you will attain nothing.

## Having attained the eternal truth, the relative truth remains

Satya and _mithya_ (true and false) are both there for sure, right? Or is there only one? Now let me explain to you _satya_. What is your name?

**Questioner** : Chandubhai.

**Dadashri** : Now are you really Chandubhai?

**Questioner** : Yes.

**Dadashri** : Yes, so that is true. Even others will say he is really Chandubhai. Your father will also say, 'He really is Chandubhai.' So that is true ( _satya_ ). But that is a temporary truth. The courts will accept this worldly truth, but in the realm of the eternal (God) it is not acceptable.

Now, in fact, you are not Chandubhai. Chanubhai is your name, is it not? Now, do you or do you not see any contradiction between the two: 'My name is Chandubhai' and 'I am Chandubhai'?

**Questioner** : Yes.

**Dadashri** : So what is true in this world, it is a temporary truth to God. This name, shape etc. which is considered the truth in this world; to God it is all temporary. And what is God's (the Eternal) truth ( _sat_ ), the ' _sat_ ' that is in _satchitanand_ ; it is is permanent. 'We' help you attain that eternal truth; the Self. So then this _satya_ (relative truth) will go away (will not have value).

' _Sat_ ' means permanent. Then 'chit' means knowledge and vision ( _gnan_ - _darshan_ ) and when the _Gnan_ - _Darshan_ remains eternal, the bliss ( _anand_ ) will remain permanent.

Do you now understand both ' _satya_ ' and ' _mithya_ '? Or do you not understand? So there is _satya_ in this and also _mithya_ ; both are there. What you believe to be true ( _satya_ ) has turned out to be false ( _mithya_ ). But that _mithya_ and _satya_ are both separate, are they not? This truth that was 'Chandubhai' has turned out to be _mithya_ false.

Now what must the real truth ( _Sat_ ) be? This Chandubhai is 'relative correct'. And who is the 'real correct'? This still has to be investigated. That; I will show you. That is the real truth; the truth that is eternal. Do you want to realize the _Sat_ (eternal truth) or not? Or you will do it later and it does not matter if you do it some other time? Your hair is still black, if you don't want to hurry then don't. People with gray hair have worries. You too want to get your work done? Is that so?

## Ignorance veils the Self

All these scriptures have been written to know _Brahma_ (the Self, God). They have been written solely for the purpose of realizing _Brahma_. And one has been wandering around for infinite lives because he has not attained realization of the Self ( _Brahma_ ). Until this ignorance goes away, nothing will be resolved. Everything else is all imagination ( _kalpana_ ). There is no end to the imagination people have painted.

**Questioner** : Then who obstructs the attainment of _Brahma_ (Self)? hinders

**Dadashri** : Ignorance ( _agnan_ ) is the obstruction. Impurity ( _mada_ ), the turmoils in worldly life because of illusion ( _vikshep_ ) and ignorance ( _agnan_ ); these three things are the obstruction. So what do people do? They keep trying to get rid of impurity ( _mada_ ), turmoils in worldly life because of illusion ( _vikshep_ ), but no efforts are being made any place to get rid of ignorance. Now, what is the reason that no effort is being made to get rid of ignorance? The reason is because there is never such a 'Gnani Purush' (Enlightened One who gets rid people's ignorance by gracing them the Knowledge of the Self) around. Very rarely, once in thousands of years, a Gnani Purush manifests! Otherwise, no Gnani Purush is to be found. Ignorance will go away if there is a Gnani Purush, and when ignorance goes away, everything else will go. Thefore the biggest cause of obstruction is ignorance ( _agnan_ ). The awareness of 'Who am I?' is attained upon departure of ignorance, once this awareness is attained; it will never leave.

**Questioner** : So ego is the veil ( _avaran_ ) that obstructs the attainment of _Brahma_ (Self)?

**Dadashri** : Yes, it is true that ego is a veil, but the ego is not considered the veil ( _avaran_ ). There are many other things that are the veils. The ego is not the only one. The ignorance of the Self is the main veil. If just once, a person comes to know the Self from 'us', his ignorance will go away. Then there will be no problems whatsoever.

**Questioner** : What is the fruit of attaining the _Brahma_ (Self)?

**Dadashri** : The fruit is a state of permanent bliss ( _paramanand_ ). Inspite of having a body, you will enjoy the state like that of King Janak Videhi (King who also was a great sage and attained the Self from Gnani Sage Ashtavakra, and who despite all the splendors and problems of the royal kindom, remained absolutely unaffected); a God like state! Then the worldly life will not bother you, it will not touch you at all. It will not touch you if someone places a garland on you and it will not touch you if someone throws stones at you.

## The difference between vision of God and Vision of the Self

**Questioner** : What is the difference between _Brahma darshan_ (vision of _Brahma_ God) and _Atma darshan_ (vision of the Self)?

**Dadashri** : There is a lot of difference. One will have to go beyond _Brahma darshan_. When continuous intent ( _trikaadi bhaav_ ) of _Brahma_ happens, that is called _Brahma darshan._ Whereas, _Atma_ is verily the _Paramatma_ (absolute Self). If ever one comes into the Self, then He verily is the absolute Self. And even _Brahma_ ultimately becomes _Parabrahma_ , because He has come into the continuous intent, has it not? It is there for all the three, the past, the present and the future.

## First Brahmanishtha, then Atmanishtha !

There is difference between _Brahmagnan_ (knowledge of _Brahma_ ) and _Atmagnan_ (knowledge of the Self).

_Brahmagnan_ is the gateway to _Atmagnan_ (Knowledge of the Self). _Atmagnan_ happens after one enters _Brahmagnan_ ,

**Questioner** : What is the difference between the two?

**Dadashri** : When _Brahmagnan_ happens, there is concentration ( _ekagrata_ ) on one's Self ( _swaroop_ ) as a result of _sadhan_ (scriptures, worships, _gurus_ ). But what is the Self? That awareness is not attained. Awareness of the Self happens only upon the attainment of Knowledge of the Self. ( _Atmagnan_ ). From the moment one knows _abrahma_ (non-Self), he is considered to have _Brahmagnan_. What knowledge remains after knowing _abrahma_? The answer is _Brahmagnan_. _Brahmagnan_ arises when faith and devotion ( _nishtha_ ) to the worldly life goes away. What do people have faith and devotion to at the moment? It is only for worldly pleasures; the pleasures of the five senses. If one's _nishtha_ changes that 'these pleasures are worldly and wrong and real pleasure (bliss) lies only in the _Atma_ ; only in God; that is _Brahmanishtha_ (faith and devotion established in _Brahma_ ). From that time onward it is considered _Brahmagnan_. Such a one is _Brahmaswaroop_. And when _Atmagnan_ happens, one is known as _Atmanishtha_ _Purush_ , he is called a God. He is called _Sakal_ _Paramatma_ (absolute Self from all aspects).

There is no _buddhi_ (intellect) in the _Atmanishtha_. This light of the Self arises only after _buddhi_ goes away. There is _buddhi_ in _Brahmanishtha_ , so this light is not there,

## Brahma is beyond even words

**Questioner** : There is also a ' _shabda brahma_ ', no?

**Dadashri** : But _shabda brahma_ means a ringing sound to the ears. What benefit do you get out of it? So one needs the exact _Brahma_. There are many such _brahmas_! _Shabda brahma_ , _naad brahma_! But you will need the exact _Atma_. The _Atma,_ which is incomprehensible ( _agamya_ ), it cannot be put in the scriptures. It is indescribable ( _avarnaniya_ ); it is inexpressible ( _avyaktvya_ ). Where words cannot reach, where the eyes do not reach; that is where the _Atma_ is and there it remains unsmeared ( _nirleyp_ ) and unattached ( _asanga_ ). And _shabda_ ( _word_ ) _naad_ ( _sound_ ) are all with 'stations' (markers along the spiritual path). It is not a big thing. That is not considered as having attained the _Atma_. _Atma_ , once attained, never leaves. It does not move away even for a second; that is called _Atma_.

**Questioner** : When can one hear _naad brahma_ (sound of _brahma_ )?

**Dadashri** : You can hear it when you stop listening to everything else. When one's ears do not listen to anything else, then he will hear the _naad brahma_. But one has desires to listen to all kinds of other things. One wants to know this and one wants to know that! If someone starts useless talks, one will immediately ask, 'What happened? Why did it happen?' Now when all these desires are fulfilled, one will hear _naad brahma_. It is a natural attribute. Nevertheless it is still not the _Atma_. It is a kind of a musical sound. It is a tool for attaining _ekagrata_ (concentration). The _Atma_ is way beyond that.

**Questioner** : Does spiritual progress have any relation to the _naad brahm stage_?

**Dadashri** : Yes, it does! One needs concentration ( _ekagrata_ ) for spiritual progress, and _ekagrata_ arises from this. A very good concentration arises in _naad brahma_. Spirituality begins only when _ekagrata_ happens, otherwise spirituality will not begin, will it? But the _Atma_ is way far away from that.

**Questioner** : _Shabda brahma_ is there. Everyone talks in different ways about this word, but the inner explosion (exact understanding) of the word should happen.

**Dadashri** : the explosion has happened (for _mahatmas_ in the Gnan Vidhi). One has exact understanding and experience of the 'word' has happened for sure. If the One who can grant this experience is there, the explosive understanding of the 'word' has happened. Otherwise the words that do not give the experience (of the Self) are all wrong words. And the ultimate state is where there are no words, _niralamb_ (absolutely independent). _Niralumb_ state! There are no words there. However, first the 'word' is attained in experience, and thereafter man becomes _niralumb._

Praise to such a Vision!

**Questioner** : When one attains the state of _Brahma_ , then all appear one to him. He does not see a woman as a woman, a man as a man, he sees them all as _Brahma_ (God).

**Dadashri** : He sees everything as verily pure ( _shuddha_ ). I will tell you what 'we' see. What is 'our' awareness like? It is complete awareness. What is the awareness of these people like? They are doing all this in a state of unawareness, 'I am this lady's husband. I am his father-in-law, I am his uncle, I am his employee'. Does one not say that? These are all signs of illusion. One is unaware of his realm, he is not aware of his Self.

'We' see the Self in everything ( _brahma mai_ ). 'Our' awareness is such that when we see men or women, in the first vision (of the 3 visions of Dadashri) they are seen without clothes, they are seen naked. Then in the second vision 'we' see them as they are without the skin. Then what do we see through third third vision? 'We' see all the bones and intestines etc., like the x-rays. So this way no attachment-abhorrence ( _raag-dwesh_ ) arises, and then ultimately they continue to be 'seen' as the Self _Brahmaswaroop_.

**Questioner** : What is the difference between _ahamkar_ (ego) and ' _Aham Bhramasmi'_ ('I am _Brahma_ ')?

**Dadashri** : In ' _Aham Brahmasmi_ ', one is excercising the ego of the 'Self'. And ego ( _ahamkar_ ) is to claim what is not.

## The Self attained at the feet of the Gnani Purush

**Questioner** : I want something that will turn the inner tendencies ( _antar_ _vrutti_ ) towards the Self ( _swa swaroop_ ).

**Dadashri** : Do you know what is considered as the Self ( _swa swaroop_?

**Questioner** : Witnessing ( _sakshibhaav_ ).

**Dadashri** : Witnesing– but what kind?

**Questioner** : Everything that takes place under it's light.

**Dadashri** : But you have to know that one with the light, the Self. You can know _Brahma_ if you attain the knowledge of the Self ( _Atmagnan_ ). How will you know it otherwise? Have you attained _Atmagnan_?

**Questioner** : That is something beyond my intellect ( _buddhi_ ).

**Dadashri** : You talk about witnessing, but by coming to the Gnani Purush you will attain the Self.

## Experience of change in one's state through change in vision

**Questioner** : Are the words ' _Atma_ - _Paramatma_ ', ' _Brahma_ - _Parabrahma_ ' all the same, or do they express the different phases of the same thing ( _paryayvachak_ )?

**Dadashri** : They are all _paryayavachak_ words. ' _Paryaya'_ means phases. _Atma_ , under certain circumstances is called _Atma_ (the Self), and the same _Atma_ under certain circumstances is considered _Paramatma_ (absolute Self). The same _Atma_ is considered ' _moodhatma'_ (unaware of the Self). _Moodhatma_ means the _Atma_ with external vision, but it is one and the same _Atma_. When one talks about _antaratma_ (inner self), it is the same _Atma_. Therefore, these are only the different stages of the _Atma_.

Just like an attorney who at first does not make any money. When he is down on his luck, people will say, 'this attorney is not making any money, he is poor.' Then when all of a sudden the same attorney makes lots of money when good fortune comes his way, people will say, 'He is a smart attorney, he is a rich man.' And when the same attorney loses all his money, they will say 'he is broke'. But in reality he is the same person.

That is how the states of the _Atma_ are. As long as 'It' has the desire for worldly pleasure, 'It' is considered _moodhatma_ , it is called ' _bahiramookhi_ _atma –_ turned towards the worldly life'.

**Questioner** : And if the veil of ignorance clears, does it then become a _Paramatma_?

**Dadashri** : But that veil cannot clear so easily, can it? First it needs a change in vision. At the moment the vision is on this side, so you see only what is on this side. 'I am Chandubhai', that is what your vision is, is it not? Or is it that you are something else?

**Questioner** : I am _Atma_ too, am I not?

**Dadashri** : No, but you accept letters addressed to 'Chandubhai', do you not? (you become angry when insulted). If someone insults or curses you, do you get affected by it?

**Questioner** : Yes.

**Dadashri** : If you are the Self, then it would not affect you. Therefore, you are Chandubhai. Now, there is nothing wrong in saying, 'I am Chandubhai'. I too say, 'I am A. M. Patel', but 'I' do not have the belief that 'I am A. M. Patel'. Whereas you have the belief, 'I am Chandubhai'.

A man was telling me, 'Only the _Vedanta_ has said that _jiva_ and _Brahma_ are one only. No one else knows that.' I told him, 'Everyone knows that _jiva_ and _Brahma_ are one for sure.' Do old people not say, 'I am going to die, doctor I am going to die, save me'? If he thinks that he will die, then he is a _jiva_. All those who have fear of dying; they are all _jivas_. And when the fear of dying goes away, the same _jiva_ becomes _Brahma_.

## 'One' is Shiva, but due to illusion he believes he is jiva

**Questioner** : Why did _Brahma_ have to become a _jiva_?

**Dadashri** : You are verily _Shiva_ (the Self), but you have become convinced that, 'I am not _Shiva_.' You believe, 'I am Chandubhai.' Just because people gave you that name, do you believe that is who you are? You are _Shiva_ , but only if you understand the difference between _Shiva_ and _jiva_ (Self and non-Self).

**Questioner** : Then that becomes _advaita,_ no?

**Dadashri** : It becomes _advaita_ (non-dual) when no difference of _jiva_ _Shiva_ remains. When _jiva_ and _Shiva_ appears to be the same; it is _advaita_. When _jiva_ believes that _Shiva_ is separate; it is an illusion ( _bhranti_ ).

**Questioner** : But _Atma_ was a _Shiva_ , how did it become a _jiva_?

**Dadashri** : Due to wrong belief; it has become _jiva_ due to wrong belief. When the Gnani Purush fractures the wrong belief and replaces it with the right belief, then 'one' becomes _Atma_ again, he becomes _Shiva_.

It does not take long for _jiva_ to become _Shiva_. One is _Shiva_ but a wrong belief has set very deeply. This puzzle gets solved when the wrong belief changes and it is replaced by the right belief.

## Only the Expert can separate the Shiva from jiva

**Questioner** : But what is the difference in the definitions of these three: _bhautik_ _jagat_ , _jiva_ and _atma_? Why are there differences in these?

**Dadashri** : _Jiva_ (the self) itself is _bhautik_ _jagat_ (the material world) There is no need to know the material world. You tell me why the differences were made?

**Questioner** : As _jiva_ and _ajiva_.

**Dadashri** : But _jiva_ verily is worldly ( _of the world_ ). Why can it be called _jivatma_? The answer is 'because its vision is worldly and its dwelling is in the worldly realm and that is why it is called _jivatma_ '. When the ( _atma_ ) self rejoices and dwells in worldly pleasures, it is a _jiva_ or _jivatma_. And that is the material world ( _bhautika_ _jagat_ ). As long as it is worldly, its dwelling will always be in the worldly realm. Do you understand that? If you want a separation, I will do it for you. However, this material world is verily the _jiva_ _atma_. That from which the temporary pleasures are sought, the relative pleasures are sought, it is all the material world ( _bhautik_ _jagat_ ). Wherever it is seeking from, and the one who is seeking it; is all the materal world ( _bhautik_ _jagat_ ). If one understands this, his work will be done.

**Questioner** : _Jiva_ comes within the body, _Atma_ comes within the body, and also the material world ( _bhautik_ _jagat_ ) comes into the body; a mixture of all the three is in it.

**Dadashri** : Everything comes into it. The whole universe comes into this body; nothing is left out.

**Questioner** : So then how can I understand them separately? How can I separate them and then understand them?

**Dadashri** : You have to become a scientist to be able to separate them. When you have gold, copper and a few other metals in a ring, what would you do to separate them? Can any ordinary person do that? The one, who has knowledge of how to do it, can do so. Others cannot, can they? If one tries to do it on his own, such efforts of endless lifetimes will be in vain and on the contrary 'he will die if he takes by mouth, medicine that was meant for topical use!' How can one blame God if he gets the instructions wrong?

## Jiva-the Self, neither separate nor non-separate

**Questioner** : Please tell us what is the difference between _jiva_ and _Atma_?

**Dadashri** : As long as it is in the worldly state, it lives and dies. Until then it is called ' _jiva_ '. Worldly state means, 'I am a _sansari_ (I am living this worldly life)' and as long as he believes that state be his own; he is called _jiva_. And when living and dying ends, one is called _Shiva_ , one is called _Shuddhatma_. _Jiva_ is always _sansari_. It has _karma_ ; the _Atma_ does not have any _karma_.

**Questioner** : So then, _jiva_ and _Atma_ are different, are they not?

**Dadashr** : _Jiva_ and _Atma_? No. The same _Atma_ , but if it is with _karma_ , it is called _jiva_ and if it is without _karma_ , it is called _Atma_. When it is with _karma_ , it lives and dies; it is a _jiva_.

**Questioner** : And _Atma_ is eternal ( _amar_ ), is it not?

**Dadashri** : It is eternal.

**Questioner** : And _jiva_ has clung on to it.

**Dadashri** : No it is not clung to it. It is like this: _jivatma_ , _Atma_ and _Paramatma_. _Jivatma_ is the state of the _atma_ with _karma_ and it is also with ego. It is in the one with the belief, 'I am this body' and the one who has no ego and does not live or die, that it the _Atma_.

**Questioner** : Then where is the _Paramatma_ stage?

**Dadashri** : When one attains the awareness of the Self, he is the _Atma_. And then from there on, _Paramatma_ state continues to manifest. When _Paramatma_ manifests fully, then there is the 'full' _Paramatma_. So when the thirteenth _gunthanu_ (or _gunasthanak_ described as a set of fourteen steps in the spiritual decevelpoment of the Self) completes, _keval Gnan_ (absolute Knowledge) happens, then One becomes complete _Paramatma_.

Hence, this _jiva_ is a state of the _Atma_ but it is an illusory state. Why is it called a _jiva_? The state of the one that lives and dies is called _jiva_. _Atma_ is pure Self (shuddha _chetan_ ) only, it is verily the _Paramatma_. But one should become aware of this. Until then one is not even aware of the fact, 'I am _Atma_ '. He still has the awareness of 'I am _jiva_ '. In the illlusory state of the self ( _atma_ , _jiva_ ) there is the belief 'I am', 'I am living, I will die.'

Did you understand that? _Jiva_ and _Atma_ , are neither one and nor are they separate. When you say 'separate', then it becomes a separate part, it is not like that. And when you say that they are the 'one'; then it gives rise to impurity in the _Atma_ , then it can be said that an illusion has happened in the _Atma_. But it is not like that either. This is because one has never become the _Atma_. The illusory situation ( _avastha_ ) of the _Atma_ that has happened is called _jiva_.

Therefore, _jiva_ and _Atma_ , they are verily one. When a lady is cooking, she is considered a chef and when she goes out and dances, she is considered a dancer. But the woman is the one and the same.

## 'I', 'Bavo' and 'Mangaldas'

Say someone knocks on the door, and you ask, 'Who is it?' he will say, 'I am here.' You ask, 'But who is 'the I'?' so he says, 'I, the _bavo_ ( _monk_ who tradition go to homes for food)!' And so you ask, 'which _bavo_?' He will say, 'I _bavo_ Mangaldas.' So then you will identify him. Otherwise, no one would know him when he just says, 'I'. If he just says ' _bavo_ ', you will wonder which _bavo_? Therefore, only when he says all the three words, 'I _bavo_ Mangaldas', you will know who he is. You will even see his face. And then you open the door. Now if there are two or three Mangaldas (individuals), then he will have to say, 'I am _bavo_ , Mangaldas of Mahadevji'. Then you will know him. So now this 'I, _bavo_ , Mangaldas'. Now tell me how many individuals must there be? Now who is the 'I' in this? Who is the _bavo_? And who is Mangaldas? Have you not heard this before? But it was of no use to you. And it helps me immediately when I hear it. Every sentence I hear is helpful to me. It is helpful to me even if I find it on the streets.

So will you not have to understand who the 'I' is? And then will You not have to understand it so that it completely 'fits' within as to who the 'I' is? Similarly, here the 'I' is the _Atma_. You will have the solution once You know (experience) this 'I'.

## Only 'that' awareness is needed

**Questioner** : So only from _Atma_ , one become a _Paramatma_?

**Dadashri** : _Atma_ is verily the _Paramatma_. One just has to realize that. If you attain the awareness ( _bhan_ ), even for a minute, that 'I am _Paramatma_ ', 'You' begin to become a _Paramatma_ from there on.

**Questioner** : So can I say 'I am a _Paramatma_?'

**Dadashri** : If you say, 'I am _Paramatma_ ', people will criticise you, insult you and make fun of you. When they do not make fun of you, they do not insult or curse you, then say, 'I am _Paramatma_ '. Can you get mango juice from a fake mango? You cannot, can you? You understand that, do you not? So, you are a _Paramatma_ , but you have not become _Paramatma_. You have not attained the awareness of that. Right now, you have the awareness of, 'I am Chandubhai'. You should have the awareness of 'I am _Paramatma_ '. So now, can you say, 'I am _Paramatma_ '?

**Questioner** : No I cannot.

**Dadashri** : Yes, otherwise people will make fun of you. People make fun of a person even when he is right. This is how the world is. You cannot deal with them.

Are you now convinced that 'you are _Atma_ '? Have you had the experience of 'I am _Atma_ '? How did you get convinced?

**Questioner** : I am at least convinced that there is _Atma_ within.

**Dadashri** : But how did you attain that conviction? Is there some kind of a thermometer (gauge) that you can use that you will immediately make you realize that there is _Atma_ in there? Is there such a thermometer?

**Questioner** : After a man dies, not even his hands are worth anything.

**Dadashri** : It is the _jivatma_ that died. In all this, have you known your _Atma_? Have you experienced 'I am _Atma,_ the Self'?

**Questioner** : I am saying that I have experienced the _Atma_ and you are saying I have not. So then tell me, what is my experience?

**Dadashri** : What it is; is that you have the experience of the _jivatma_. But that is not the main _Atma_. The main _Atma_ is _chetan_ (the Self), whereas _jivatma_ is _nischeta chetan_ (self without Self). The whole world has taken _nischetan chetan_ to be _chetan_ and that is why it is in a trap. _Nischetan chetan_ means that all its attributes look like those of _chetan_. It moves around and is mobile, but it is not _chetan_.

## Upon attaining awareness of the Self, One becomes immortal

**Questioner** : People say a person is dead when the _jiva_ departs from his body. So, are the _jiva_ and _Atma_ different in this? If both are the same, then in what state is it considered a _jiva_ and in what state is it considered _Atma_?

**Dadashri** : That which lives and dies is called _jiva_ and that, which neither lives nor dies, is _Atma_. _Jiva_ is just a temporary adjustment, it is just a situation ( _avastha_ ).

**Questioner** : Do _jiva_ and _Atma_ , both leave and go into another body until they find _moksha_?

**Dadashri** : No it is not just the _jivatma_ alone that departs; many other things go along with it. All the _karma_ go with it. Unti it becomes free, until it becomes _karma_ free, everything will wander around with it. All the _karma_ one creates will also stay with the _jivatma_.

One just has to realize 'Who am I'. If you are _jiva_ and you are living, then you will die, and if you are _Atma_ the Self, then 'You' are immortal. Living life is a situation, and that which lives and dies is called _jiva_. _Jiva_ is in a worldly interacting situation. In it there is the collection of merit _karma_ ( _punyai_ ) and demerit _karma_ ( _paap_ ), the non-Self things are in it too; there is also _karma_ and that is called as _jiva_.

**Questioner** : Then what is considered the mind ( _mun_ )?

**Dadashri** : The mind is when thoughts happen. The mind, intellect, chit and ego ( _mun_ , _buddhi_ , _chit_ and _ahamkar_ ); this is the _antahskaran_ (the inner working instrument). And the _jiva_ is the boss ( _upari_ ) of all of these. The self is verily the _jiva_ , whereas _Atma_ is a different thing ( _vastu_ ). _Atma_ is different from the _jiva_. The one that lives and dies is _jiva_. _Atma_ does not die. _Atma_ is immortal and that verily is 'our' Self.

**Questioner** : So _jiva_ can be considered _pudgal_ (non-Self complex), no?

**Dadashri** : Yes, _jiva_ is indeed the _pudgal_ (the non-Self complex). But to us it appears as living. It moves, speaks and does everything. But in fact it is _pudgal_. _Jiva_ means it is simply a 'sculpture' that has arisen.

## The separation disappears when illusion leaves

**Questioner** : How can one call _jiva_ a _Parameshwar_ (God; absolute Self)? _Jiva_ is an illusion.

**Dadashri** : Thru _bheda buddhi_ (intellect that divides or differentiates) it is called _jiva_. When there is _bheda buddhi_ , then 'I am separate and God is separate'; that is a _jiva_. And when the intellect becomes _abheda_ (stops seeing divisions), then 'I am truly God', then it becomes _Shiv buddhi_.

**Questioner** : 'I am _Atma_ ', with this vision, is there no separation there?

**Dadashri** : The separation between _Shiva_ and _jiva_ is gone when one attains the awareness of, 'I am _Atma_ '.

**Questioner** : That is correct, but what is the difference between _jiva_ and _Parmeshwar_ (God; absolute Self)?

**Dadashri** : _Jiva_ is asking for the pleasures from temporary things and it has faith in those temporary things. And _Parameshwar_ has faith only in the permanent thing and it believes only in the eternal state. It has no value for temporary things. That is the only difference. _Jiva_ means that the self is in the illusion ( _bhranti_ ). When that illusion is gone, then all the illusory attachment ( _moorchha_ ) over temporary things goes away, that self becomes a _Paramatma_!

In order to become _vitarag_ (absolutely free from attachment and abhorrence); first _arthadhyan_ (inner adverse meditation that hurts the self) and _raudradhyan_ (inner adverse meditation that hurts the self and others) have to stop. Once _artadhyan_ and _raudradhyan_ stop, worries will not arise at all. Despite living a worldly life; one will not have any worries. If worries continue, then what is the point? This is how straightforward Lord Mahavir's _siddhant_ (incontrovertible principle that accomplishes the ultimate) is, provided there is a Gnani Purush around. And if a Gnani Purush is not around, then no matter how much one tries, one will not attain even a fraction of the _siddhant_ of the Lord.

## Saying God You are separate will never lead to Self-realization

So doing _bhakti_ (devotional worship) of God is good. With that you receive worldly pleasures, and find a path ahead towards spirituality. One progresses on the spiritual path, he finds company of good people and he also receives _satsangs_ (spiritual company). But one does not gain any experience of the Self ( _anubhuti_ ) there. For experience; only when the divisive intellect ( _bheda_ _buddhi_ ), that which separates _jiva_ and _Shiva_ goes away; that is when experience of the Self happens.

Did you like anything that I have said so far about the _bheda buddhi_ and its role in _jiva_ _Shiva_ separation? Only then it is considered as experience, is it not? Otherwise, a mere assumption of what one believes to be the experience, is all wrong, is it not? Many people have saved many such wrong experiences and that too, they picked them up from the _shukarvaari_ (weekly Friday markets)! They bought the ones that were discarded and sold in the market by other people. Therefore, the _bheda buddhi_ of _jiva_ - _Shiva_ should go away. That is why Akha Bhagat (famous Gujarati spiritual poet 1591-1656) had said:

" _Jo tu Jiva toh karta Hari, jo to Shiva to vastu khari_ "

"If you are _jiva_ , then God is the doer. If you are God, then that is the real thing."

He is right, is he not? Therefore, when the _bheda buddhi_ of _jiva_ - _Shiva_ goes away, then 'You' are a _Shuddhatma_ ; you are a _Paramatma_. One says, 'God is separate and I am separate.' But when the separation between _jiva_ and _Shiva_ is understood exactly that there is no separation between the two; then He becomes free.

Sooner or later one will have to understand this, will he not? One will have to know the _Atma_ eventually, will he not? When one knows the _Atma_ , that _jiva Shiva_ _bheda buddhi_ will go away. And when that happens, all fear will be gone and _vitaragata_ prevails.

When will there be an end if one continues to believe that God is separate, and I am separate? That has been the case for endless life times, has it not? The two, 'I' and 'You' are there, are they not? One has been saying, 'Thou art, thou art ', for so many life times.

You verily are the master of this world. But this realm has been lost. What kind of a thing is this? Therefore, one should attain the awareness of, 'I am _Shiva_ ', and that is called the experience ( _anubhuti_ ). When the awareness ( _bhan_ ) of 'I am _Shuddhatma_ ' happens; it is called experience. Every living being ( _jiva_ ) has the awareness of, 'I am a _jiva'_.

##...but the path of removing seapration is the same

**Questioner** : Can the _jiva Shiva_ separation be destroyed through any other body, besides the human body?

**Dadashri** : No, not through any other body.

**Questioner** : Can penance be done through the subtle body ( _sukshma deha_ )?

**Dadashri** : Penance? To know all this? No, penance cannot destroy the _jiva Shiva_ separation. Not even penance can do it.

**Questioner** : Are there any subtle rituals for destroying this separation? Can one know it through the subtle body?

**Dadashri** : The 'Gnani Purush' can do a lot to know more in thse subtle matters. For the Gnani Purush, the separation in _jiva Shiva_ (self and Self) is already gone. But if He wants to know beyond that, he can do so through other subtle means. However, the practioner of penanace cannot know that.

**Questioner** : Can one remove the separation between _jiva and Shiva_ through the subtle body?

**Dadashri** : No. He can do so, but it is in his belief only. It is psychological and it is not acceptable. It has to be methodical through Gnan. It should be done along that line. Whether it is the _Vedanta_ , _Jainism_ or anything else, the path is just one. The knowledge is of just one kind.

**Questioner** : So this _jiva Shiva_ seapration can be removed only in the human life, is that so?

**Dadashri** : It is not possible at all in any other body, other than the human body.

**Questioner** : How about the _devagati_ (as a celestial being)?

**Dadashri** : No. Nothing can happen there. All they can do is that if they want to do _darshan_ while remaining there, then they come here. So they can come here to do _darshan_.

**Questioner** : Can one in a _videhi_ state, (one who has attained the Self is free despite having a physical body) destroy this _jiva Shiva_ separation?

**Dadashri** : _Videhi_! A _Videhi_ has become _Shiva_ himself. One whose _jiva_ _Shiva_ separation is removed, becomes _Shiva_ _swaroop_ the Self. He is considered a _videhi_. King Janak had become like that.

## The jiva is the doer and the sufferer

It is a _jiva's_ ignorant belief that 'I am going to die'. So as long as he is, he living but otherwise he dies. The state of living and dying is called ' _jiva'_. And _ajanma amar_ (never born, eternal) is called called ' _Atma_ '; it is called ' _Shiva_ '. _Shuddhatma_ is _Shiva_. The ultimate work is done when one understands that 'I am the Self, I am _Shiva_ '.

As long as the awareness of, 'I am doing it and I am suffering it', exists one is a _jiva_. _Jiva_ is the doer ( _karta_ ), the sufferer ( _bhokta_ ). And when the awareness of I am the 'non-doer and the non-sufferer' ( _akarta-abhokta_ ) becomes established in his faith ( _shraddha_ ) and conviction ( _pratiti_ ) He becomes the _Atma_. Then, whether it comes into a manifestion ( _rupak_ ) or not, is a different matter. That is because it will manifest later.

**Questioner** : I did not understand which situation ( _avastha_ ) of the _jiva_ you said.

**Dadashri** : The doer-sufferer is the state of the _jiva_. 'I am doing this, I am suffering (pain or pleasure) this', that is the state of a _jiva_. It is a temporary state. Does one not say, 'I am going to die'? And he also say, 'I am still going to live another fifteen years', do they not?

**Questioner** : Yes.

**Dadashri** : That is the _jiva_.

**Questioner** : Is _jiva_ the doer?

**Dadashri** : His awareness is that, 'I am the doer, I am the sufferer'. The one that has the desire to live and not die is the _jiva_. _Atma,_ the Self, is the non-doer and the non-sufferer.

Did you understand the _jiva_ _Shiva_ difference?

## When can one ever become the non-doer by doing?

That is why it has been said, 'If you are _jiva_ , then _Hari_ (God) is the doer.' And 'If you are _Shiva_ , then that is true thing.' If you become the _Shiva_ , then there is nothing else left, there is no one above You as your boss. As long as you are a _jiva_ , you will like worldly pleasures and the relatives. 'Here comes my daughter's father-in-law'. One gets lost even when his daughter's father-in-law comes. In whatever one gets lost, he becomes that. He gets lost in the company of his son's in-laws; such are our people!

Then it reads:

" _karta meetey toh chootey karma; aey chey mahabhajan no marma -_ one becomes free from the bondage of _karma_ when the 'doer' is gone; this is the essence of the ultimate devotional offering of liberation ( _mahabhajan_ )".

What is the essence of the _mahabhajan_? If one does not become free from _karma_ , then the doer is subject to _karma_ , then _karma_ is subject to the doer, then the doer is subject to the _karma_ , and the cycle goes on endlessly. What a cycle of creation and destruction! 'Causes and effect, effect and causes, causes and effect, effect and causes'. In all this, people teach each other 'doer-ship'. They make them the doers. 'Don't do this!' 'Do something good'. On the one hand one wants to become free from _karma_ and then they tell you to 'do' this.

**Questioner** : Contradictory.

**Dadashri** : Yes, And therefore this train will not reach Kashi (Varanasi, place of pilgrimage and salvation for Hindus). For so many life times, people's trains have not reached there ( _moksha_ ). Hey! Who knows which station it is leisurely parked at and so it has not reached Kashi. That is why I give you the passport for Kashi and that itself, will take you to Kashi ( _moksha_ ). Not the wheels of the train, but this passport (Gnan Vidhi) will take you there, because your 'doer-ship' will go away. So then what will be left in this world?

## Only the Gnani can free you from wrong beliefs

**Questioner** : I believe that it is the _jiva_ that makes us do all this.

**Dadashri** : But who is the doer? If _jiva_ makes you do, who is the doer? In fact even the _jiva_ is not making you do it.

**Questioner** : No, it is the _jiva_ that makes one do it, for sure.

**Dadashri** : It appears to you that way.

**Questioner** : That is why I feel that first the _jiva_ has to be brought under control and then one can move forward.

**Dadashri** : Hey! The poor _jiva_ does not make you do anything. It does not have the capability even to go to the toilet. One will discover that that he does not have independent energy ( _shakti_ ) to do so when he gets constipated. He will be able to go to the toilet only when the doctor gives him some medicine for it.

**Questioner** : But it signals me from within that I have to go to the toilet, and then I go, no?

**Dadashri** : That is true. The physical signal, the urge, comes from within. But the _jiva_ does not have energy of its own to go to the toilet. The _jiva_ functions through some other energy. It is also not the energy of the _Atma_. It is true that it tells you from within. What is the meaning of this signal from within'? When the urge arises within, the mind immediately tells the sense organs that this is what it wants to do and so all the sense organs will get ready. Therefore, everything works through the energy of inner physical signals.

**Questioner** : But one can move ahead only when he brings the _jiva_ under control, is that not so?

**Dadashri** : Try and control this _jiva_! A person does not have energy to go to the toilet at will. He does not have energy to live or the energy to die. If one had the energy to die, he would never die. But there is no such energy.

**Questioner** : Who has that energy?

**Dadashri** : It is that energy that I am showing you, and it is the energy that runs this world.

**Questioner** : We call it God.

**Dadashri** : Yes, people call that God. But it is inanimate and that is why we do not call it God. People of the world do not understand that, do they? And that is why they believe it to be God, who else other than God can do that? But it is some other energy that does it, which I will show you.

**Questioner** : My understanding is that _jivas_ mean that which has all the veils ( _avaran_ ). And as these veils are shed, one becomes _Atma_ from the state of _jivatma_.

**Dadashri** : There are many who believe that one with these veils is _jiva_ and one without any veil ( _niravaran_ ) is _Atma_. But what I am telling you is, one can attain the _Atma_ , despiting having these veils, so it must be something new, right?

**Questioner** : That is something new. The way it was explained to us was that the air creates waves on the ocean; the waves are the _Atma_ and the ocean is the _Paramatma_.

**Dadasheri** : Such talks are all considered as _vikalps_ – contrary thoughts and ideas; crazy _vikalps_. Yes, the one with veils, you should call as ' _jiva_ ' and the one without such veils should be called the _Atma_ ; we should accept such a _vikalp_ (projection). But _vikalps_ such as this are all useless. The _Atma_ is not something that you can know. Rarely, once in thousands of years will there be an _Atmagnani_ – Knower of the _Atma_ in this world. There will be no other human being like him; that is how unique he is. Unique means there is none other like him.

## So many consequences of the illusion!

**Questioner** : _Jiva_ is in essence _Shiva_ and _Atma_ is verily _Paramatma_ , so then why do people kill or murder other people or hurt them?

**Dadashri** : That is a fight between the _prakrutis_ (the non-Self complex); it is not a fight between the _Atmas_. The _prakruti_ fights. Just as if two dolls are fighting. So as long as the illusion ( _bhranti_ ) prevails, one will be under the belief, 'oh my grandson has died!' Oh! The _Atma_ has remained the same. The packing (the body) dies but people grieve bitterly, 'oh my grandson is dead, my one and only grandson is dead!' He cries as if he is going to die!

## The same One has so many roles

There are infinite _atmas_ and they all worthy of becoming God, but for now, they are in a _moodhatma_ (unaware of the Self) state; it is ' _bahimurkhi_ _atma'_ (the vision of the self that is externalized).

_Bahimurkhi_ _atma_ verily means _moodhatma_. It means that he is looking for pleasure in temporary things, 'This is mine, this will give me pleasure; this will bring pleasure' and then he keeps wandering for infinite life times, but nothing gives pleasure and so he gets tired. But even then he says 'I'll find pleasure in this'. But how many such things are there? There are infinite such things, amongst which he pushes aside one thing and takes another, he then pushes that aside and takes another. In this way, time passes by but pleasure does not come from any place.

All worldly pleasure is temporary and imagined. It is not real pleasure. Imagined means that you may like rice-pudding and the other person may not. Does that happen or not?

**Questioner** : Yes it does.

**Dadashri** : Everyone likes real pleasure ( _sukha_ ). Pleasure that is eternal (bliss) and true, is what everyone likes. This is all imagined pleasure. It is different for everyone. People who are Hindus are vegetarians and Muslims are non-vegetarians; so each has his own imagined source of pleasure. As long as one has the desire to enjoy (suffer) imagined pleasures, as long as one has a deep desire, he remains a _jivatma_. One is known as a _jivatma_. Then he becomes an _antaratma_ (interim state of , 'I am pure Soul') when he meets a Gnani Purush. To attain this state not even a saint can help. Saints can help him move forward. Then once he becomes _antaratma_ , he becomes free from worldly desires because He has attained the bliss of the Self, and his 'desire' is to attain the completion of this bliss and the experience of the Self. And when the Gnani Purush helps him taste some of that bliss ( _anand_ ), he will not like the other pleasures. Just like when you have your morning tea. If someone were to bring you a dish of _jalebi_ (fried crispy sweets soaked in sugar syrup), what would you do? What would you take first? The _Jalebi_ or tea?

**Questioner** : Tea.

**Dadashri** : You will drink the tea first. Why? Because, if you were to eat the _jalebi_ first; the tea would not taste sweet enough. And then, will a fault of the wife arise in this that there is not enough sugar in the tea? Now the tea tastes bland because you ate the sweet dish. Similarly, when one tastes the bliss of the _Atma_ , then worldly pleasure will become bland to him. He will have no interest ( _ruche_ ) in it, he will not like it but he will still suffer ( _bhogavey_ ) the pleasures. This is the state of the _antaratma._

So, as long as he wants worldly pleasures, one is a _bahirmukhi_ _atma_. When he realizes the Self with, 'I am not this; I am _Shuddhatma_. I am eternal and I do not want any worldly thing', He becomes the _antaratma_. The _antaratma_ does two things. One is worldly in nature, where he fulfills the work of worldly interactions. That is when the awareness is applied ( _upayoga_ ) to that, and when he has to do the 'work' of the Self; then applied awareness is on that side ( _shuddha upayoga_ ). In this way there are two types of applied awareness ( _upayoga_ ). The applied awareness is only one, but at a given time, whatever time is spent on 'attending ' to the worldly side, that is the _upayaoga,_ and when circumstances arise for this side of the Self, then there is _shuddha upayoga._ _Antaratma_ means a stage of 'interim government'. Then as He settles his worldly interacting circumstances, He gradually comes into the 'full government' stage.

Now, what else do you want to ask?

**Questioner** : That is exactly what I am trying to confirm that _jivatma_ , _antaratma_ and _Paramatma_ , are these three different names for the same thing?

**Dadashri** : They are three different adjectives for the same thing. Here at home, one is known as the boy's father, at his shop he is the boss and in the courthouse, the same person is an attorney. Hey you! Why do you call the same man a father, a boss and an attorney? The answer is, 'We are giving him the adjective depending on what work he is doing at the time. Whatever circumstance he is in, he is a boss when he is in the shop, when he is arguing a case in the court, he is an attorney; that is how it all is.

So when people say ' _jivatma'_ and ' _atma'_ , it is the one and the same thing. Just as people call you 'professor', but what do the children call you at home?

**Questioner** : They call me 'papa'.

**Dadashri** : Yes, and at the college it is 'professor'. Similarly, the adjectives given to you depend on what work you are doing. Just as you are one and the same person but in one location you are a 'papa' and in another you are a professor, similarly here too, the adjective is dependent upon the work being done.

The one with the belief, 'there is pleasure only in the _pudgal_ , in temporary things for sure', is a _jivatma_. When that belief is over and the belief turns to 'bliss is only in the eternal', then one becomes _antaratma_. And what is _Paramatma_? Those who have become _vitarag_ ; they are absolutely free from any _raag_ (attachment) or _dwesh_ (abhorrence) - they are called _Paramatma_. So then who is _antaratma_? The one whose vision is exclusively towards becoming a _vitarag_ is _antaratma_. And the one who derives pleasure in worldly things and interactions, who does _raag-dwesh_ , is a _jivatma_. Did you understand all that?

**Questioner** : There are so many veils of _maya_ (illusion).

**Dadashri** : They are all verily the veils of illusion!

**Questioner** : And because of the veils of illusion _maya_ , one cannot go into the state of _antaratma_ or he cannot make progress from the _antaratma_ stage.

**Dadashri** : No. The progress will always continue once One comes into the _antaratma_ stage. If progress does not happen, then one has not become the _antaratma_ at all. _Antaratma_ becomes 'dependent-independent'. Why would it not make progress if One has become independent to some degree? He can do everything. So one has not become _antaratma_ yet, has he? One is still a _jivatma_. He still does not know the difference between _jiva_ and _Shiva_.

They are the same thing. As long as there is the desire for worldly pleasure, one is still a _jiva_. And when one becomes aware of the bliss within and turns towards it, then he is _Shiva_. It is the one _jiva_ that becomes the _Shiva_. As long as one is binding _karma_ , one is a _jiva_ , and when one ceases to bind _karma_ , he becomes a _Shiva_.

## One becomes free by 'worshipping' the One who is free

**Questioner** : Now, the _Atma_ is in _satchitanand swaroop_ (established in the blissful awareness of the eternal, the Self) the self - _jiva_ is with _kashayas_ (anger-pride-deceit-greed), so how can the _jiva_ become _satchitanand_ state?

**Dasdashri** : It becomes like the one it worships. If it worships _satchitanand_ , it will become _satchitanand_ , and if it worships an outaw, it will become that. The nature of _jiva_ is such that it will become whatever it worships. It can become liberated by worshipping the absolutely free One ( _mukta Purush_ ), and become bound by worshipping the one who is bound. Therefore, one can become _satchitanand_ by worshipping a _satchitanand_.

## Attributes of the new changed state

**Questioner** : What noteworthy changes happen when one goes from a _jivatma_ state to _antaratma_ state?

**Dadashri** : What noteworthy changes happen when one goes from the _jivatama_ to _antaratma_ – is that what you are asking?

**Questioner** : Yes.

**Dadashri** : The tendencies ( _vruttis_ ) stop going outwards. The tendencies that used to roam outwards saying 'I will do this and I will do that', all turn around and come back. Just like the cows, they go out to graze in the morning but in the evening, they return home, do they not? That is how the tendencies begin to return. So you realize that this man is becoming _Shuddhatma_. The tendencies that used to wander around outside have stopped and are returning home. If you look at your tendencies, you will notice that they are wandering outside. One will wander here and another will wander there. It even wanders off to the snack houses and restaurants, does it not? If you have been to a nice restaurant just once; they will wander off there, will they not? Therefore, the tendencies ( _vruttis_ ) keep wandering off, and when one becomes an _antaratma_ , those tendencies turn around and return home.

**Questioner** : When one progresses from _antaratma_ to _Paramatma_ , what noteworthy changes happen?

**Dadashri** : What it is, is that, _astitva_ (existence), _vastutva_ (the Self) and _purnatva_ (the state of being complete, absolute Self) these are three gradations. Every _jiva_ is aware of its existence ( _astitva_ ), 'I am'. Is it or is it not? Not only humans but the animals too are in the awareness of 'I am'. Therefore, every _jiva_ is aware of its existence ( _astitva_ ). When one becomes _antaratma_ , he becomes aware of the _vastutva_ (Self); he becomes aware of 'Who am I?' and thereafter _purnatva_ (the absolute Self) happens naturally on its own. The only _purushartha_ (effort) necessary is for going from the _astitva_ state to _vastutva_. The rest will happen naturally. This is what the change in the vision is.

Instead of going in this (right) direction, one goes in the other (wrong) direction, and then he believes that he will attain his absolute state in that direction lies in that direction. When he meets a Gnani Purush, then the Gnani will turn him around and change his vision towards this side (the Self) and that is when the _jivatma_ state is destroyed. When he comes to his main abode (the Self), then he attains the state of _antaratma_. All his _vruttis_ (tendencies) then begin to return home. The tendencies turn around as 'he' turns around and he continues to become natural and spontaneous ( _sahaj_ ). One has to use the support of the Gnani Purush until one becomes _antaratma_ (Self-realized); one has to take the Gnani's support until the 'intrim government' is attained. Once having attained the 'intrim government', 'full government' will continue to be established.

## Through Gnani Purush, One attains absolute state of the Self

**Questioner** : Dada, 'You' are _Paramatma_ (absolute Self) and we are _jivas_ , that is the difference between You and us.

**Dadashri** : That is the difference. But you become _antaratma_ by doing _darshan_ here, by receiving Gnan. _Antaratma_ can 'see' the _Paramatma_. And by 'seeing' the _Paramatma_ , the _antaratma_ becomes the _Paramatma_! What more do you want?

Right now, there are so many wrong beliefs that have taken hold within. 'We' have to fracture those wrong beliefs and replace them with the right one; then 'You' become _antaratma_. Then the absolue state ( _purnahuti_ ) will follow naturally.

And this not a rule of a foolish kingdom. The _moksha_ I give within an hour; does not happen haphazardly. This has never happened before; I am simply a _nimit_ (instrumental in the process). This is an exceptional path. Where there are rules, without fail, there will be an exception there too. Such an exception is this path of Akram Vignan and I have become a _nimit_ for it.

## Conviction of the Paramatma leads to the absolute Self

When one comes into the _moodha_ _dasha_ (worldly state; a state of ignorance of the Self), one is known as _moodhatma_ (worldy self). 'I am Chandulal. I am collector', what do you call that? It is considered the ignorant state ( _moodha_ _dasha_ ) of the one living life in ignorance of the Self ( _moodha atma_ ). He believes pleasure to lie in perishable things. The Self is eternal and the temporary will perish. These two can never be multiplied (they are not compatible). Nevertheless because of illusion he believes there is pleasure in the worldly life and that is why he is called as _moodhatma_.

Now when the Gnani Purush gives him the conviction ( _pratiti_ ) of 'this entire world is not mine, I am the absolute Self ( _Paramatma_ )', that is when the 'I-am this' – ( _hoon_ _panu_ )' becomes one ( _abheda_ ) with the _Paramatma_. At first it is not complete oneness, the oneness is there through conviction ( _pratiti_ ). Then he becomes 'one' through the Gnan (experience of the Self, _anubhav_ ). Therefore first the conviction of 'I am _Paramatma_ – the absolute Self' must be established. At the moment the wrong belief of 'I am Chandubhai' is established. The wrong belief of 'I am a collector' is there. The Gnani Purush fractures all such wrong beliefs and establishes the right belief; he accepts that, the mind-intellect-chit-ego accept that, he becomes free from doubts ( _sanshaya_ ), becomes absolutely doubt-free ( _nishank_ ); that is when his work is done. There are doubts and suspicions of endless life times within one. When the Gnani Purush fractures them, He becomes completely doubt-free ( _nishank_ ), and that is when the conviction of _Paramatma_ becomes established. That faith ( _shraddha_ ) that arises is his 'right belief'.

## Every soul is a separate entity even in Siddha kshetra

**Questioner** : Are all the souls different or are they different forms of one _Paramatma_?

**Dadsashri** : By worldly interactions, they are all different. If we look at their names and physical forms, they are all different but in reality, they are all one. Relatively they are all different and really there is just one, so then what do you want to know?

**Questioner** : This _Brahma_ that is, why did he have the desire to become endless from being just one? Why did the desire of ' _ekohum bahoosyam_ ' arise?

**Dadashri** : The Self is just one; the Self has not become many; the Self is just one. But due to _bhranti_ (illusion), it appears to have become many. The real nature ( _swabhav_ ) of all is just one. No matter how many bars of gold you have, when you combine them all, they are the same, no? The damage is done when brass is mixed with it. Everyone is verily a God; they are all Gods. The reason they appear as different is because there is _bhranti_ illusion.

**Questioner** : So the element of the Self ( _chetan_ _tattva_ ) is the same in all?

**Dadashri** : Yes it is the same by nature. By 'same' we mean from the state of the inherent nature ( _swabhav_ ), it is all one and the same.

**Questioner** : But the Self ( _chetan_ ) that leaves upon death, does is not unite again? How is its separate existence sustained?

**Dadashri** : Everything in this world is separate. The separation that is here, the same separation is over there too. Separation over there means, from the original attributes ( _swabhav_ ), it is the same in all but from the view of existence ( _astitva_ ) they are all separate. The Self is separate for the experience of the bliss.

By nature they are one, but they appear different through _bheda_ _buddhi_ (divisive intellect). There will be intereference as long as the _buddhi_ (intellect) exists. One will experience oneness ( _abhedata_ ), as the _buddhi_ ends. What does the _buddhi_ do? It divides and separates. So it is possible to understand this fact after the _buddhi_ goes away.

If things were the way you are saying, that once one goes to _moksha_ , one merges and becomes one, then no one would go to _moksha_ , would anyone? Supposing if that were the case and it (the little lamps) would all become just one lamp (light - _divo_ ), then what benefit is it to us? Instead of that, here the wife scolds you a little but atleast she will make nice steaming hot fritters for you! What is wrong with that? So you do not become one (merge with 'one supreme' reality) over there. Over there, there is no pain of any kind. There, You live in continuous eternal bliss. And each _atma_ is independent. They are one by their true nature but they are all separate. If they became one over there; then what would happen to the _atmas_ souls over here?

**Questioner** : If the Self is of just one kind, how can their existence be separate?

**Dadashri** : The Self remains verily separate, so how can they become one? They cannot become one, can they? Bars of gold are separate but (collectively) they are all called gold. That is how you can say that the _Atma_ is the same, but they are all separate (in existence) just like the gold bars. There is no other difference in all of them. It is through the _buddhi_ that you see different aspects but in the state of purity of the absolute Self without body ( _siddha_ _stithi_ ), each is experiencing its own bliss.

Those with _bheda buddhi_ (divisive intellect) have a lot of difficulty in understanding this. Despite being many, they are just one – this is a very subtle fact and worth understanding. If they come together and become one, then what do you gain? I too had heard this when I was young, that one individual light will become one (merge) with another. But how does that help me? If you are looking for the bliss of _moksha_ , what bliss will you gain if they were to become one? What is there in it if you were to became one with God? And all are verily Gods, are they not? Lord Ramchandra went to _moksha_ and right now he is in the bliss of His _moksha_. Whereas we are here, we have to suffer the problems we have here.

And even in the worldly life, in the universe there is not just one _atma_ ; there are infinite _atmas_ but they are one in their inherent nature ( _swabhav_ ). There are never any differences in their natural attributes.

## The talk will need to be scientific

**Questioner** : I believe that there is no other element ( _tattva_ ) besides _Paramatma_ , and what we call _Atma_ is nothing but manifestation of the _Paramatma_.

**Dadashri** : You can believe that, but do you not experience pain at the same time? If _atma_ was the manifestation of _Paramatma_ , then do you experience any pain or suffering?

**Questioner** : Yes, I do.

**Dadashri** : If you do experience pain and suffering, then you will have to believe in all the numbers, from one to hundred. And if you do not experience any pain or suffering, then you will be fine if you do not believe in that. Otherwise, you will have to believe in all the numbers from one to hundred, forty-five should be followed by forty-six and forty-six should be followed by forty-seven. Everything will have to be methodic and systematic. There should not be any falsehood or haphazardness. That may be acceptable elsewhere, but falsehood will not be acceptable in science ( _vignan_ ).

**Questioner** : So, does that mean that the _atma_ is a separate entity having separated from the _Paramatma_?

**Dadashri** : Not separate. The _atma_ is itself the _Paramatma_ ; and so is the _jivatma_. The difference lies only in the understanding. When he is at home, people will say, 'He is this lady's husband.' When he goes to his shop, they will say, 'He is the boss.' And when he goes to the court, 'He is an attorney.' But he is one and the same person. Therefore, _jivatma_ , _antaratma_ and _Paramatma_ ; they are all the same. The adjectives are given based on the work they are doing.

## There is no merging of the souls

**Questioner** : So then is it true that the _atma_ definitely merges with the _Paramatma_ , if not in one lifetime, then in two life times or three life times?

**Dadashri** : No, no! There is no merging going on at all over there. The _atma_ is itself the _Paramatma_. Right now, you have the awareness of, 'I am Chandubhai'. When 'You' attain the awareness of, 'I am _Shuddhatma_ ', then 'You' will attain the awareness of the _Paramatma_. _Atma_ is itself a _Paramatma_. Your _Atma_ is a _Paramatma_ and his _Atma_ is also a _Paramatma_. But this concept of merging, is written by people and they have ruined everyone's mind. Can there be merging of the _Atma_? This is the same _Atma_ , but one has not become aware of it yet. Right now one is unaware of the _Atma_. He is not aware of the _Atma_. You have the awareness, 'I am Chandubhai', you have the awareness of, 'I am Desai', but not the awarenes of, 'I am _Atma_ ', do you?

All these _mahatmas_ (theose who have attained the Self in Akram Vignan) 'see' the _Atma_ residing within you, and that is the _Paramatma._ You will not find the _Paramatma_ , wherever there is merging to be done, will you? But 'You' can 'see' the _Paramatma_ even within a goat. The complete _Paramatma_ is sitting within a goat and also the donkey. Therefore, there is no such thing as merging. So put aside everything that you have read.

What good is the buttermilk that will not give you any butter despite being churned? You just have to throw it away, get rid of it. On the contrary all one's efforts are wasted and the arrogance of 'I know something' enters the mind. Hey you! What do you know? You are all beaten down from all the stumbling and the tripping over. Does a person not get exhausted from all the beatings? And who knows what he thinks of himself in the mind?

**Questioner** : But it has been said that every _Atma_ is a separate part of the same _Atma_. It is a separate part of _Brahma_ , and that they all merge into it.

**Dadashri** : Who told you that?

**Questioner** : I have read that every _Atma_ merges into the _Brahma_. The _Atma_ that attains the absolute state, it merges into it.

**Dadashri** : So then what is left for you?

**Questioner** : I get to become one with _Brahma_ , right?

**Dadashri** : But what is in it for you?

**Questioner** : I want to get rid of the ego and its problems and attain the state of _Ishwara_ (God).

**Dadashri** : Yes, so that you can become an inclusive part of _Ishwara_ , but what do you gain from that? Instead of that, you have our independent identity; here you get to eat _ladva_ (sweets) and _bhajiyas_ (fritters) and everything else. The only problem is that you may have to take a few insults, no? What other problems do you have? And besides what do people also say? They say, 'we only want to go to _moksha_ if there is more pleasure there as compared to here. And if we have to merge and become one over there, then we do not want to go'.

## If the light merges into another light, what is it for you?

**Questioner** : But those who say ' _Aham Brahmasmi_ (I am _Brahma_ )' say that _moksha_ is when the light merges into the great light. So, is _moksha_ and to merge into the light, one and the same thing?

**Dadashri** : What they consider as _moksha_ being merging into a light; that _moksha_ is not the proper _moksha_. The _moksha_ the _Vitarags_ have talked about, is that even in the _Siddha gati_ (abode of the fully liberated Souls) each Soul experiences its' own independence and separation. That is the correct _moksha_. If we cannot have the experience of our own independence and if over there we have to merge and become one, then there is no meaning to that _moksha_ ; it is all meaningless talk. So these are all thoughtless discussions.

## Continuously immersed in the eternal bliss is moksha

**Questioner:** So what do you consider as _moksha_ according to your assessment?

**Dadashri:** _Moksha_ means 'no boss, no underhand' and to remain in the natural state of the bliss of the Self permanently. And One enjoys the bliss in his own way independently. Every _Siddha_ is in its own state.

**Questioner:** So do all these _Siddha atmas_ absolutely liberated Souls 'behave' in their own different ways over there?

**Dadashri:** No, not in different ways. They all have the same nature (attributes) and they exist in one way only. They have Knowledge ( _Gnan_ ), Vision ( _Darshan_ ) and bliss ( _sukha_ ), but they do not have Conduct ( _charitra_ ). If a Tirthankara Bhagwan is present, He would have Conduct along with Knowledge and Vision; he would have a body. Over there the _Siddhas_ do not have _charitra_. Over there each One is constantly in the Self- bliss. So over there, one does not merge into a one. Over there they are in their natural independent eternal bliss.

In the _Siddha-gati,_ all the liberated Souls exist independently. And they are experiencing their own bliss! They experience absolute and infinite bliss!! If just a minute's worth of their bliss should happen to fall down or slip down onto this earth, this entire world would be in bliss ( _anand_ ) for thousands of years; that is the kind of bliss they enjoy there. It is for this kind of bliss that people are struggling for. Your own bliss within you is just like that. Based on the bliss that I am experiencing, despite this body, I can understand what kind of bliss there must if there is no hinderance of the physical body. Even though you are sitting with me, you are experiencing that bliss, no? That is my bliss, which is overflowing and you are getting a taste of it!

**Questioner:** How can one experience bliss without a physical body?

**Dadashri:** When you try to visualize ( _chintavan_ ) bliss without a physical body, you still have the presence of the body, so you cannot quite experience that bliss. From that, we have to deduce that with such a great amount of bliss here, how much more it would be over there!

## The experience of the bliss of the Self in the Siddhagati

**Questioner:** Since the Souls who are liberated, have gone to _moksha,_ are in the _Siddha gati_ do not have a body; then who is experiencing that bliss?

**Dadashri:** The Self experiences the bliss of the Self. The bliss of the Self is suffered continuously by the Self ( _swanubhav_ ). Moreover, they are always in their own space. What is their 'work'? _Gnan kriya_ ('Knowing') and _Darshan kriya_ ( 'Seeing'), continue constantly.

**Questioner:** Then why would they need the 'Knowing' and 'Seeing'?

**Dadashri:** That is their nature! Would this light not continually be 'seeing' us? If this light were living, then would it not 'see' us continuously? That is how that Self ( _Chetan_ ) keeps 'Seeing'.

Now, what would they be 'seeing' from over there? The Knowledge and the Vision they have is their infinite Knowledge ( _anant Gnan_ ) and infinite Vision ( _anant Darshan_ ) that is being used and the result of that is bliss ( _anand_ ). So the bliss does not come first. It is not bliss first, then Knowledge and then Vision; that is not the way it is. When their Knowledge and their Vision are used, there is always bliss as a result! And so they do not have anything else except Knowledge and Vision. Their whole form is nothing but Knowledge and Vision ( _Gnan swaroop_ and _Darshan swaroop_ ). So if you raise your hand, they even 'See' that.

So even their 'Seeing'increases and decreases. At nightfall, on this half it decreases while the other half it increases. It waxes and wanes like that. And when it is five in the morning for us, they can 'See' all these people. But really, when can they 'See' something that waxes? At ten, eleven, noon they can really 'See' everything, there are many people roaming around, here and there, they can 'See' everything. All they want is just to 'See' and 'Know', they don't want to get any deeper into it like, 'is this man going out to steal, or what?' They can even 'See' the man picking someone's pocket, but they only 'Know' it and they 'See' it, just these two things! They are not engaged in any subject. What subject? The subject of pick pocketing, they have to 'Know'; they have nothing to do with it.

When I raise the hand, all the _Siddhas_ (liberated Souls) know it in their Knowledge. Those _Siddhas_ continuously 'Know' things to be known ( _gneya_ ). There are only two things in this world: that which is 'known' ( _gneya_ ) and that which is 'seen' ( _drashya_ ). You 'know' the things to be known and 'You' 'see' the things to be seen. What is the result of that? It is boundless bliss; infinite bliss. That is the natural bliss of the Self.

## One by nature but separate in existence

Now what problem do people have? They have problems with, 'why is there not just one entity over there?' Hey! There is just one but in which way? Here if we have five hundred thousand gold bullion piled up, would we not call it gold? We can say it is gold, can we not?

**Questioner:** We can call it gold but we can also call it bullion.

**Dadashri:** No. You could ask if all of it was gold. But can we not say that it is all gold? Even though it is in the form of bullions, but it is all gold, is it not? In the same way, this _Paramatma_ is just one. The Soul ( _atma_ ) is one; like gold, it is only one as bullions; they are separate. And each one does no let go of its individuality.

**Questioner:** So that means that in whole there is just one _atma_ , can we say that?

**Dadashri:** With regards to gold, each soul is really gold, but as bullion goes, each soul does not give up its individual state.

**Questioner:** Does it mean that ultimately each individual's soul is one?

**Dadashri:** By 'one', meaning that it has one nature (quality or attribute). There is no difference between the _atmas_ souls. Just as there is no difference in the bullion and ultimately it is all gold, every soul is the same; there is no difference between any souls.

**Questioner:** If the soul possesses just one quality, then why do they differ as individual entities?

**Dadashri:** Its individuality differs because of the change in its time and space! Each one's time and space is always different. Would this person be seated in the same space you are sitting in? Now if he were to get up from his spot and you go and sit where he was sitting, you would get the same space, but then the time would have changed.

So the universe is like a flowing stream. The universe is not static, but it is like a current, it is in the form of the world ( _sasar_ ) is w. Worldly meaning evolving, constantly changing, not staying still even for an instant! As if there were an army of two hundred thousand men marching by, there would rows of five, ten or fifteen and wouldn't they all be assembled in a line? So as they are passing, would you not be able to see them all? The _Gnanis_ constantly see the entire universe as it passes. When the 'eyes of _Gnan'_ open; they keep seeing that the universe is flowing continuously. And because it is flowing, no one else can be in the same space as you. And when someone else comes into your space, at that time, time has changed. Can you comprehend that? Therefore this body, the shape, _punyai_ (merit _karma_ ), demerit _karma_ are all separate. But as the Self, they are all of one nature.

## The Soul Can Not Be Divided!

**Questioner:** So are all the souls a portion of a soul?

**Dadashri:** No, no! All the souls are not portions of a soul! It is like this: Always if there is a thing that has form ( _rupi_ _vastu_ ); it will have a part. But there can never be a portion of that which is formless _arupi_. The formless can only exist as one thing. It can never become one whole again if it were to be divided or broken into pieces. Thefore the Self is complete and indivisible.

**Questioner:** So, am 'I' the complete pure Self within?

**Dadashri:** You are complete. You are the whole!

**Questioner:** So the Self cannot be divided?

**Dadashri:** The Self is verily the absolute Self and it is an eternal element ( _vastu_ ). That is why you cannot separate it into single pieces. It is whole in its entirety. Division would create a portion and the element would be destroyed, but it is not like that. The Self is indivisible.

**Questioner:** There is a life form called amoeba, it proliferates through division; one divides into two, two into four, which is why I thought, would it not be possible for the soul to divide in the same way?

**Dadashri:** That's correct but it is not the soul that is dividing. It is the body that is dividing. There are infinite life forms within this physical body that are dividing on their own. Just like a potato that has so many souls _jivas_ and if you were to cut a piece of that potato and plant that piece, it would grow again, yet there are other things you could cut, but they would not grow. The piece that grows, when planted has many souls. Succulent plants such as cacti and rubber plants that secrete milky resins, would grow even if you planted a small segment. Such plants have the greatest number of souls and they proliferate and regenerate their own species.

**Questioner:** So what is the difference between what they call as subtle soul ( _sookshma atma_ ) and the gross soul ( _sthool atma_ )?

**Dadashri:** You cannot divide the soul into a subtle soul and a gross soul and yet people still refer to the soul as being subtle and gross. All that is the temporary ( _vinashi_ ) _atma_ soul. The real Soul is permanent ( _avinashi_ ) It does not have a subtle part or a gross part!

That which I call as the 'Soul', does not have a subtle division or a gross division; it is the non-sectionable ( _avibhagi_ ), indivisible ( _avibhajya_ ) absolute Self ( _Paramatma_ ). And you are talking about a soul that is gross and subtle and that can be divided. All this subtle and gross is perishable. It is the 'mechanical' soul. The mechanical soul only works if air is allowed to flow into the body. If the air was prevented from entering, it would go away (die), whereas the main Soul never dies.

So if the soul were a portion of the _Paramatma_ , then it could never become absolute. And if it does not become absolute then it cannot be a soul! 'You' are the absolute, the whole. But you are not aware of that. Your awareness is just a fraction. You are the entire absolute Self ( _Paramtma_ ). The _Paramatma_ can never be a portion. The _Paramatma_ cannot be divided into pieces.

## Can a Rupee coin ever turn into a paisa coin?

Do you understand now that God exists as a complete whole ( _sarvansha_ ) form? You thought that God existed as a fraction ( _ansha_ )? So when people said that God exists as a fraction ( _ansha swaroop_ ); it can't be false, can it? Is it false? It is not false, but what happens if a person were to drink a medicine that was meant for only topical application? What is _ansha swaroop_ – fraction form? It is that God within you is _sarvansha_ (complete, full), but by whatever amount your veils of ignorance breaks, you attain a corresponding portion of _Gnan_ (Knowledge). But within, God is complete ( _sarvansha_ ). And in this life it is possible for the complete _Gnan_ to manifest. But one must be from India; because people of India are fully developed ( _kashaya_ ). This knowledge would be difficult for people outside India, because of their lack of belief in life after life. Only the one who understands life after life; can understand the complete form of God.

So if the people of India come to hear of such a science, all their inner energies would be awakened. Otherwise, what do these people believe? They think, 'what are we capable of doing? We are a fraction of God!' They have been taught to say, 'We are a small fraction of God'! The knowledge that people attain, the understanding that they are given, whatever knowledge they live by, that knowledge and belief that is instilled in them, is one of 'I am a fraction of God'. So when will you ever become complete, full? This will not get you anywhere. You are not a fraction of God. You are complete and absolute God! A fraction can never become complete. A fraction does not have the energy to become complete. A fraction will always stay in the form of a fraction. And the absolute will never become a fraction . The absolute will forever remain absolute. You may ask, then why has all this ignorance spread? Why do people believe God to be in a form of a fraction? This is where the Gnani Purush explains that 'the God within is complete ( _sarvansha_ ), but one is partially enlightened and he gets the benefit in proportion to however many layers of ignorance (veils) have been lifted. But otherwise one's real Self is complete _sarvansha_.

Did you understand? If you say 'I am fraction of God' where will it get you? When I was told by someone about being a fraction of God, I thought to myself, 'how can this be?' When I was young, I met people who told me that we are a 'fraction of God!' I was annoyed and thought, 'you might be a fraction but why would I be? You are a fraction, and besides one paisa (100 paisas make one Indian rupee coin) cannot become a rupee coin ever and a rupee coin can never become a paisa, even if that paisa were to remain around for thousands of years would it ever become a rupee coin? So you must understand this!

## The Real Understanding of the Omnipresent

**Questioner:** The Self is complete ( _sarvansha_ ) and is it also omnipresent ( _sarvavyapi_ )?

**Dadashri:** No. The Soul is omnipresent, in the relative sense, but it is not so eternally. When you talk about the omnipresent, are you speaking from the real perspective or the relative one?

**Questioner:** The real sense.

**Dadashri:** Does this light illuminate the entire room or not?

**Questioner:** Yes it does.

**Dadashri:** And it you were to put paper over it, then?

**Questioner:** Then it would get dark.

**Dadashri:** So then you would not see light here would you?

**Questioner:** No I would not.

**Dadashri:** So at that particular time, is it everywhere?

**Questioner:** At that moment, we feel deluded but the light is still everywhere!

**Dadashri:** No it is not like that. People have used the word omnipresent incorrectly and in the wrong context. 'The soul is omnipresent' you say, but you have misunderstood. I will explain what omnipresent ( _sarvavyapi_ ) means, to you.

In the final life before _moksha_ , when the body is the final body ( _charam_ _deha_ ), at that time the Soul becomes completely unveiled. At that time the Soul becomes omnipresent ( _sarvavyapi_ ) in the whole universe. This is not the case with every soul; only the soul that is headed for _moksha_. The soul that becomes completely veil-free ( _niravaran_ ) becomes omnipresent. But not any other souls, did you understand?

**Questioner:** So is the soul omnipresent as the Self ( _chetan_ _roopey_ )?

**Dadashri:** No. It is not omnipresent as the Self; omnipresence is its intrinsic nature. In the final life, there is the final body ( _charam_ _sharira_ ), and when the Self free of layers of _karma_ , its light spreads all over the universe. So it is a relative thing. This is not the case with every soul. People die every day, do they not? Everyday there are funerals, no?

They say the soul is omnipresent ( _sarvavyapak_ ), but it is omnipresent because of its light; it is omnipresent because of its illumination, the Soul itself, is not all pervading.

So the light of the layer-free ( _niravaran_ ) Soul is omnipresent; that light illuminates all other things. Are both the Knower ( _gnata_ ) and objects to be known ( _gneya_ ) present in this world or not? Or is only the Knower that is present?

**Questioner:** There is the knower and the known, both.

**Dadashri:** So you have accepted what I have said? Similarly there is both a 'Seer' ( _Drashta_ ) and things to be seen ( _drashya_ ). Except for the _atma_ , everything else is _drashya_ and _gneya_ – that to be seen and that to be known. As long as there are objects to be known and scenes to be seen, the light from the Soul will illuminate these; such is the nature of the Self.

For instance, if we put a lamp in this earthenware pot and put a lid over it, the light will not fall outside, it will simply illuminate the inside of the pot. Then if you break that pot, how far will that light go? The light will go in whatever receptacle you put it in. In whatever room you put it in, the light will spread all throughout that room.

In the same way, when the Soul becomes free of all the veils ( _niravaran_ ), it can pervade in the _loka_ and _alok_ (the universe and areas outside the universe). But the Soul gives light only to the universe ( _loka_ ). There are no objects to be known ( _gneyas_ ) in _aloka_ and so the Soul's light of knowledge does not go there. Because we have the region of our universe ( _loka_ ), the other part is referred to as _aloka_ (space beyond the universe). _Aloka_ does not have any objects to be known, there is only space there. Now, because there are no objects to be known ( _gneyas_ ) there, the light of the Soul has nothing there to illuminate. And that is why it is able to illuminate the entire universe. This is the case with every _Atma_ , provided the veils over it are removed!

If you put a light in a pot and pierced holes in the pot, that much light will come out. In the same way, through the five senses, the light of the Self comes out. So in its ultimate state, when the body is shed completely, the Soul can illuminate the entire universe; that is its nature.

At present, the Soul is in the body. That is why you must understand the nature of the Self-the Soul. Once you know that, it means that the ignorance over the Soul is lifted. Then, on their own, the _karma_ will shift and shed and 'You' will discover the Truth. There are infinite locations ( _pradesh_ ) on the Soul that are covered layers of _karma_ as veils. As the _karma_ gradually get settled, the veils begin to shed.

The Self fills the space it is in

So the meaning of omnipresent ( _sarvavyapak_ ) is different. It is not the way people understand it. The meaning of omnipresent is like a light bulb, that actual light bulb is not everywhere in the room; it is simply its light that is all over the room. Similarly, in one Soul there so much energy ( _shakti_ ) that it can illuminate the entire universe. After becoming the pure Self, when the pending _karma_ become completely discharged, and when no _karma_ remain, then the energies of the Self will illuminate the entire universe.

People however misunderstand this to mean that the soul is everywhere and in everything. They believe, 'the soul is in this, the soul is in that'; but their understanding is incorrect. What happens if you ingest medicine meant for topical use only? The disease is neither cured on the skin (outside) or within.

You can say that the light is everywhere and understand that the light bulb is in one spot, but its light is all over the room. If you take the same light bulb and put it in a pot with a lid over it, would you then be able to see its light everywhere?

**Questioner:** No it cannot be seen.

**Dadashri:** That is why the soul ( _pramata_ ) throws out light according to the space it is contained in ( _prameya_ ). So it depends on the volume of the space. If you put the bulb in pot, it will only fill that much space. You will not see any light outside the pot.

## The receptacle of the universe is filled by the light of Paramatma

**Questioner:** I read somewhere that if you did _satsang_ with a 'Gnani Purush for a long time, you should try to understand the meaning of ' _pramata_ , _praman_ and _prameya_ **',** so please explain these.

**Dadashri:** Yes, _prameya_ is the body, and the universe too is a _prameya_. The Self is itself _pramata_ (the infinite light). Since the Soul is in the body at present, how much light does it have? What is its level and intensity ( _praman_ )? It is limited to the body. Now if the Self attains absolute state of Gnan and becomes free of this body, what would be the level of the light of the Self? That light would illuminate the entire _prameya_ , in the entire universe. The illumination level ( _praman_ ) of the light of the Self ( _pramata_ ) depends upon the receptacle. It is limited according to the space of what it is contained in ( _prameya_ ). So when the body is shed at the time of _keval Gnan_ (absolute Knowledge), the light of the Soul illuminates the entire universe. What is the light's level now? It is only limited according to the body that contains it.

If you put a light bulb in a pot, its light is intense, and if the pot breaks, the light would fill the room and its intensity would decrease, so as this light spreads over a vast space, its intensity decreases, because that light is physical in nature but the light of the Soul does not decrease in intensity. Regardless of how far it travels throughout the universe, its intensity remains constant!

## Omnipresent by the relative viewpoint only

So, 'the Soul is omnipresent' is a relative viewpoint. But people have misinterpreted it, and have taken it to be the real fact, and they have botched up everything. Instead of rubbing the medicine on the outside, they ingested it! So what does it mean when we use the term 'relative'? It means that this does not happen for all souls. It does not happen when everyone dies. When the _Kevalis_ (the Ones who attain absolute Knowledge) or the Tirthankaras attain _moksha_ , their Soul that is liberated illuminates, 'fills up' the entire universe. From that relative viewpoint, it is considered omnipresent. It is not omnipresent for all or eternally. People keep calling the Self, omnipresent, but as long as man is ignorant; as long as he is covered with veils; the light of the Self within does not come outside. The light is restricted. Only with absolute Knowledge (without any _karma_ ), does the light fill the entire universe. The Soul within you is just like that but it has become covered by layers of _karma_.

When a Soul goes to _moksha_ , its complete light illuminates the entire universe. Its omnipresent light fills the whole universe. From this view it is omnipresent. And the God ( _Shuddhatma_ ) that 'You' 'see', is because of the divine vision ( _divyachakshu_ ) that You have received in the Gnan Vidhi. You can only see God in 'creatures' (living things) not in the creation (man made things, inanimate things). 'God is in every creature whether visible or invisible, not in creation.' There is no God in this machine. But people have placed God everywhere, including in non-living things. They have stressed this over and over without understanding.

## Are there souls in everything in the world?

The entire universe is fully packed with creatures, _jivas_ (living things) and within those living beings there is _chetan_ (the Self). Yes and those entities are made up of two components, _jada_ (inanimate, non-Self) and _chetan_ (soul, Self). And that _chetan_ is pure _chetan_ ( _shuddha_ _chetan_ ). That _chetan_ itself is the soul ( _atma_ ); it is the absolute pure Self ( _Paramatma_ ).

**Questioner:** So is there nothing other than the soul everywhere?

**Dadashri:** No. The soul is not alone. Every living entity also has a non-Self component as well as the Self. The meaning of omnipresent is different, but people have not understood it correctly. If it was omnipresent where would you go to empty your bowels? Generally the kitchen and the toilet are separate in the house, right? Now if God were present in everything, then how would you choose which wood to burn and which not to burn? So that is why you use your terms carefully. Lord Krishna had told us about the presence of _jada_ and _chetan_ , He spoke of both the _atma_ (the Self) and _anatma_ (non-Self).

This _chetan_ (the Self) and _jada_ (non-living) are entirely two different things. You can use anything that is non-living ( _jada_ ), but if you hurt any living thing ( _chetan_ ), then you will be liable for having committed demerit _karma_ ( _paap,_ sin). There is _chetan_ in trees, so if you cut it or burn it, then you commit demerit _karma_. But if there is a piece of wood or a log lying around and you burn it, it would not matter because there is no _chetan_ in it.

## Original revelation through the exact Vision

And so Lord Krishna gave us the true meaning, that there are two things: the _atma_ (the Self) and the _anatma_ (the non-Self). If you believe this non-living thing to be the soul ( _atma_ ), then what would become of the _atma_? If they are all wheat grains, then what is there to pick out? If there is gravel mixed in with the wheat but you are told that there are only wheat grains, then what need would there be to sort the grains only?

If you go to the grocers to buy wheat, what would you ask the merchant for? Would you say to him, 'give me some gravel' or would you say 'give me some wheat'? What would you ask for?

**Questioner:** Give me some wheat – that's just what I would have to say.

**Dadashri:** Would you not have to tell him what kind of wheat you want?

**Questioner:** Yes. Wheat from Gwalior.

**Dadashri:** Yes. And if you were to ask him to show you what the wheat grains look like, he would pierce the sack and show you a small handful of wheat, saying, 'Look, the whole sack is full of this sort of grain.' The merchant will always call it a sack of wheat; even people will call it that. But, when that sack is brought home, what would the wife say? She will tell you she will have to sort the wheat, take out the gravel. You will say, 'but I have brought you a sack of wheat grains, what is there to sort out?' And she will reply, 'you don't have any commonsense! Grain and gravel always come together; that is called wheat!' To which you would say, 'But everyone calls it wheat at the grocers!' That is the way they speak in the world ( _vyavahar_ ). So in the worldly life people call it 'wheat', but it is mixed with gravel. So it is understood that you have to sort it when you bring it home. This is the way of the world. The world will call it a 'sack of wheat' but you say, 'no there is gravel in it!' They will say, 'no you cannot say that; this is a sack of only wheat!' That is called the worldly life interaction ( _vyavahar_ ). You will have to understand the world, will you not?

If I came to your home and in the morning I have to brush my teeth and I ask you for a brush, what kinds of things would you give provide?

**Questioner:** A brush, toothpaste, etc., that should be provided.

**Dadashri:** Yes, you would bring a water-pitcher, a wooden seat, all of that.

**Questioner:** Yes.

**Dadashri:** But if I only asked for a toothbrush, then why would you bring all those other things? Yes, because that is _vyavahar_. Although I may just ask for one thing, you have to understand the rest. So you need to understand this _vyavahar_. If you give a person just the toothbrush, he will then say, 'I need toothpaste, I need water, I need this and that...' so it will create a problem, instead you should understand _vyavahar_.

So, in the worldly interaction ( _vyavahar_ ), they can be called wheat, but there is also grit and gravel in it. They say ' _atma_ is everywhere' in the worldly interaction; this is how they have said that. There is wheat (the Self) and there is also grit (the non-Self) along with it. Similarly, there are _atma_ along with _anatma_. (But to say) 'There is _atma_ everywhere', that is not really true. But one will find a solution if he understands all that.

So, people have wrongly understood it to mean that these are all _atmas_ ; that is to say there is _atma_ also in this pole, this wall etc. so they have a wrong understanding. So then there is no reason to look for the wheat and the grit. 'Everything is wheat', they will say. 'We' do not say 'no' to that. But it is all wheat to the businessman. But for the one, who has to eat it, there is wheat and the grit together, are they not? What is it to the businessman?

**Questioner** : Just the wheat.

**Dadashri** : Yes, so this is what it is to all the businessmen. But the one eating has to understand, does he not? How will one find real God, when 'God is everywhere'?

So, people understood that God (the Self) is in everything; then there is no point of that. The businessmen will say that that is all wheat. Will they ever say, 'There is wheat and there is grit in it'. So then we would say, 'Take the grit out of it', but the businessman will say, 'It is all wheat.' But to the one eating, there is wheat and grit there.

So, know either the wheat or the grit. Knowing either of the two will do. If you want to separate the wheat from the grit, will it suffice just to know the grit or the wheat, or not?

**Questioner** : When you know the grit, the rest is the wheat.

**Dadashri** : So they are saying that, 'Know one and you will know both.' Therefore, 'we' make 'You' know the _Shuddhatma_. So then 'You' know the rest.

What do these people say? 'Dear lady, did you sort the wheat?'when she is actually picking out the grit. So just look at our language. You go there and say, 'You said you were picking the wheat, but you are actually picking out the grit.' She will tell you, 'I am picking the wheat, am I not?' but people are picking out the grit, are they not? Why do they say it that way?

**Questioner** : They do not have the right understanding, do they?

**Dadashri** : This worldly life is an illusion, is it not? And therefore, all the talk is wrong.

## Is the Self without attributes or with infinite attributes?

One can become a true devotee, if he just understands what Lord Krishna has revealed. He has unveiled the whole science and he has said that the four _Vedas_ are _trigunatmak_ (gives knowledge of the three _gunas_ of the _prakruti_ , possessing three qualities: _satva, rajas and tamas_ ). The four _Vedas_ are for people. But those who want to go to _moksha_ should go beyond the _Vedas_ and come into the _Gita_.

**Questioner** : You talked about ' _trigunatmak'_ , but it is said that the Self is without any attribute ( _nirguna_ ), is it not?

**Dadashri** : This belief about the Self being without any attribute ( _nirguna_ ) is a belief filled with mistakes. In this world, not even a stone is without attributes. A stone is useful for even the concrete layer, no?

So the Self is the _Paramatma_. It has infinite attributes. Let me explain to you this ' _nirguna'_ (atributeless). Scriptures writers have called it ' _nirguna'_ but people understood it in their own language. Are they likely to get any benefits if they understand it in their own language?

**Questioner** : No.

**Dadashri** : What are they trying to say? With reference to the attributes of the _prakruti_ , from the view of the _prakruti,_ the Self is without any attributes. Not a single attribute of the _prakruti_ is in the Self. And with reference to its own nature, the view of the Self, it is full of its own attributes. Did you understand this? There is not a single attribute of the _prakruti_ in the Self and that is why it is called _nirguna_.

## Nothing is attributeless in this world

**Questioner** : But it has been said that in whatever way one worships the _nirakar_ (the formless), the _nirguna_ _Brahma_ (attributeless _Brahma_ ); that will present in front of you, in that way. Meaning one can attain that _darshan_ in a physical form.

**Dadashri** : It is like this. The _Brahma_ (the Self) that was given to these people is 'the Self of illusion'. _Brahma_ is not without attributes at all. This is the _Brahma_ of illusion. People are talking without any understanding and according their own 'language' and making more of a confusion.

**Questioner** : Then please tell us what is ' _Brahma'_?

**Dadashri** : It is the original thing ( _vastu_ ). It is eternal. It has infinite attributes. Now they just keep on calling it ' _nirguna_... _nirguna_ (attributeless)' and so people have followed suite. And so I have to tell them in strong words that 'Hey you! Even a stone has attributes'. Is it not useful for grinding _chutneys_?

**Questioner** : Yes, it is.

**Dadashri** : And 'Hey! Is the Soul the only thing without any attribute?' So I have to use strong words to make them understand, no? How long are you going to go on believing such things? And if you believe that, then when will you attain the Self ?

Therefore, in reality, even a stone has attributes. But people say that the Self is without any attribute. That is what others have said about it and that is why the whole point has turned in the opposite direction. So then I have to tell them that it is true that the Self is without any attribute ( _nirguna_ ), but people have interpreted that meaning according to their own understanding. With reference to the attributes of the _prakruti_ ; the Self is attributeless. Not a single attribute of the _prakruti_ is in the Self, but the Self is full of its own attributes.

Now, they have gone as far as calling the Self, ' _nirguna atma'_! Hey you! When even this stone is not without attributes, you are calling the Self as ' _nirguna_ '? Even after a million lifetimes, how will you turn towards the location of the main abode? Not even a stone is _nirguna_! Even the water buffalo dung is not without attributes! Even their dung is helpful. Is it not useful when they do ' _leyp'_ (dung is one of the ingredient in a mixture used for coating floors in India). Therefore, everyting has its attributes. Attributes do the work, do they not? Even dirt is useful, is it not?

Now from time immemorial such mistakes are allowed to continue and so people take a beating and suffer. Mistakes in religion ( _dharma_ ) are unacceptable! There can never be any mistakes in _dharma_. And what happes if there are mistakes? Besides, this is _vignan_ – science. Even the slightest mistake and that is the end of it! Its basis and reliability becomes altered. Did you understand this term ' _nirguna_ '?

**Questioner** : Yes.

**Dadashri** : Therefore, in reality the Self is with attributes ( _saguna_ ) and it isthe abode of infinite attributes. The natural attributes of the Self are many. But there is not a single attribute of the _prakruti_ in the the Self, and therefore it without attributes ( _nirguna_ ). Instead what people understood was that the Self is without attributes. Hey you, not even a stone is without attributes in this world. Not a single thing in this world is without attributes. Good or bad, but not a single thing is without attributes. If everything has attributes then why would the Self not have attributes?

## Ultimately only the attributes of the prakruti are nurtured

**Questioner** : What is the connection between the three _gunas_ of the _prakruti_ namely _satva_ (stands for goodness, excellence), _rajas_ (passion) and _tamas_ (darkness, negativity) and the _tattvas_ (the eternal elements)?

**Dadashri** : What are you going to do with the three _gunas_? They are temporary; they are the attributes of the _prakruti_ (the relative, the non-Self), whereas the elements ( _tattva_ ) are eternal.

There are presiding deities ( _adhisthata_ _dev_ ) that represent these three _gunas_ of the _prakruti_. So whoever has the need for these _gunas_ will worship the respective deity of _Brahma_ , _Vishnu_ or _Mahesh_. That is all they are for, nothing else!

**Questioner** : So they are considered as part of the celestial deities?

**Dadashri** : For sure! So whichever _guna_ there is, there is a presiding deity over that. _Shiva_ is the deity for _tamo guna, Vishnu_ for _rajo guna_ and _Brahma_ for the _satwa_ _guna_. So if you worship that particular deity, that _guna_ will increase. But ultimately one will have to know the Self.

**Questioner** : But the description of _Brahma_ , _Vishnu_ and _Mahesh_ given in the scriptures, what is that?

**Dadashri** : These idols are placed for the purpose of strengthening the _prakruti_. _Vishnu_ is _rajo guna_ , _Mahesh_ is _tamo guna_ and _Brahma_ is _satwa guna_. It is for making strong those _gunas_ that these idols have been established. So in worshipping any one of them, one will strengthen the corresponding _guna_. But those attributes will eventually come to an end.

**Questioner** : So then there is no point in worshipping _Brahma_ , _Vishnu_ and _Mahesh_?

**Dadashri** : Of course there is a point! Man has to strengthen the _prakruti_ , does he not? He will progress only if he strengthens his _prakruti_.

## Symbols from the worldy vision and view of the Gnani Purush

**Questioner** : In the _Shivalaya_ ( _Shiva_ temple), symbolic images of all the eight parts of _Ashtangyoga_ namely, _yama_ (moral codes), _niyam_ (discipline, self purification and study), _asana_ (postures), _pranayama_ (breath control), _pratyahar_ (sense control), _dhyan_ (meditation) _dharana_ (intention, upholding, supporting), _samadhi_ (contemplation), have been placed there. The tortoise symbolizes _pratyahar_ (sense control), _nandisvar_ (sitting on the bull) represents the _asana_ (a place for sitting). _Parvartiji_ represents _dharana_ (focusing chit in one location), _Shankar Mahadev_ is _samadhi_ (oneness with the pure Self)...

**Dadashri** : These are symbolic representations. However deep a person has gone into this, thereafter as quickly as possible, he needs to turn around and head 'home'. All these symbols have been placed for the benefit of others; if they help, they help but otherwise they remain as mere symbols. But people have started to believe in the symbols as being the truth and reality. There is no such thing as _Brahma_ , _Vishnu_ or _Mahesh_. They are simply symbolic representation of the three _guna_ of _sattwa_ , _rajo_ and _tamo_.

**Questioner** : Creator, preserver and destroyer.

**Dadashri** : Yes, and do you know what they are in the language of the Tirthankaras?

_Utpaad_ (origination, beginning), _dhruva_ (sustenance) and _vyaya_ (consumption or destruction); this is the Tirthankaras' language. These three words have been confused a lot because of those symbols. The symbols were understood by the people of those times but when the era of the time cycle changed, it created a lot of confusion. Whatever era of the time cycle it was developed in, people of that era of the time cycle would understand but when the era changes, it creates more confusion.

So people have muddled all this! Now how would one find _Brahma_ if he tried to look for him? And is anyone likely to find _Vishnu_ or _Mahesh_?

If we ask, 'What is their job? What is their business? One would say, ' _Brahma_ creates all this, _Vishnu_ runs and maintains it all. And that _Maheshvar_ , the destroyer will bring about an end.' Hey! Do you have to worship a destroyer?

That is what it is all about. Now if you want to know the facts about this world, then there are six eternal elements ( _tattva_ ) that are constantly interacting and therefore apparently changing. Does eternal mean that there is a creator who created the eternal? Does one need a creator for them? So is it not wrong when someone says that without a creator eternal things cannot be created? Therefore there can never be a creator of these elements.

Still, people ask, 'there has to be a creator, no?' Hey!Why don't you understand the meaning of eternal? What is the nature of the six eternal elements? They have their own _guna_ attributes and they remain within their attributes ( _guna dharma_ ). You call something eternal when it has its _guna dharma_. They have their own _guna_ attributes, and also _dharma_. _Dharma_ means situations ( _avastha_ ) or phases ( _paryaya_ ). Therefore, these six elements are with their own _guna_ (attributes) and phases ( _paryaya_ ). And as a rule they are constantly changing ( _parivartan_ ) when they interact with each other. Just as the lunar and solar eclipse happens when the moon, the sun and the earth interacting with each other in the solar system, similarly all these six eternal elements ( _tattvas_ ) interact with each other, and all situations ( _avastha_ ) arise.

Now the attributes ( _gunas_ ) are always with them. They will not increase or decrease, while the situations and the phases ( _avastha_ and _paryaya_ ) change. What has been said about that? Phases arise and then they ebb, they continue to arise and end and _drauva_ (permenance or a constant state) remains. Arising-perishing is due to state of situation ( _avastha_ ) and _drauvata_ (constant, eternal) is by nature ( _swaguna_ ).

Therefore these eternal elements are with their attributes and phases ( _paryaya_ ). Now, what are those phases like? The answer is 'they arise and perish, arise and perish, arise and perish' and the elements remain eternal. The Self 'lives' eternally. And the phases arise and perish. That is why it is called _uttapad_ (origination), _drauva_ (constancy, maintanence) and _vyaya_ (destruction or exhaust). These three terms people called _Brahma_ , _Vishnu_ and _Maheshvar_ , respectively. It was done for the benefit of people but people misunderstood it all and they ended up 'drinking the medicine that was meant for application on the skin only!' If a person does that, is he likely to benefit?

So did you understand what _Brahma_ , _Vishnu_ and _Mahesh_ are?

**Questioner** : They are three elements ( _tattva_ ).

**Dadashri** : No, they are not even the elements; in fact .

So, _uttapaad_ (origination), people called as _Brahma_ (creator). _Vyaya_ (destruction) they called Mahesha and _drauvatta_ (preservation) they called _Vishnu_. A person established symbols for these three. Consider it as a kind of an invention of their own. They tried to make it better, but in due time, is it not likely to become misleading? And so they made idols of _Brahma_!

What is more, these people have made an idol of even _the Gita_ and the _Gayatrimata_! They have not left anything alone. Hey you! Do not make idols of _Gayatrimata_. It is a _mantra_ , one of the best _mantra_. This _mantra_ has to be recided as a _mantra_ , not to be worshipped as an idol. The _Gita_ has to be read, it needs to be studied and understood. Instead people made idols of the _Gita_ and they worship it. And when they started worshipping the idol of _Gita_ , Lord Krishna is laid aside. Lord Krishna got left out and this idol took over. This is how people bungled up everything.

So the meaning and the significance behind this got lost. It got beaten out! It was done with the intent to guide people on the right path but when it does just the opposite, should it not be uprooted? Should new foundations not be put in place?

So in establishing these symbols people became entangled and trapped. Instead, what was wrong in leaving the science exactly the way it is? Is there any wrong in that? That they had to bring in these _Brahma_ , _Vishnu_ and _Maheshvar_!

**Questioner** : But Dada, they have been placed with such a figment of the imagination that the imagination has been carrying on for years!

**Dadashri** : And the main thing cannot be found. So then I researched and found the facts and started presenting them to people.

So the phases of these eternal elements have been symbolized in this way so that people do not forget. But people started believing that these three run everything. _Vishnu_ is the one who runs things or so and so runs everything. So how many superiors does that make above us?

**Questioner** : Three.

**Dadashri** : No, no. Not just three; many more. Then even _Yamraj_ (the God of death) is above us! There is a superior everywhere. Man is bound to get distress and scared, no?

That is why I have said, 'There is no fatherly figure (superior) above you at all'. Let go of needless worries. Your mistakes and your blunder are your superiors (mistakes: _karma_ created in ignorance of Self. Blunder: 'I am Chandubhai'). If you do not realize this, then what can even _Brahma_ , _Vishnu_ and _Maheshvar_ do?

So _uttapad_ , _vyaya_ and _dhrauv_ is the nature ( _swabhav_ ) of the elements. In the _Siddha kshetra_ (abode of the completely liberated Souls), the _Siddha bhagwans_ 'see' this entire world in the form of _uttapad_ , _vyaya_ and _dhrauv_. It is not 'seen' in its original attributes but is 'seen' as origin, steady state and destruction.

Now, these states ( _avastha_ ) come to arise and therefore it is written _uttpad_ , _vyaya_ and _dhrauva_. And they have written it in other words; ' _uttapaneva'_ , ' _vigneva'_ and' ' _dhrauveva'_.

But otherwise in this world _Brahma_ , _Vishnu_ and _Mahesh_ are just symbols. These symbols were very helpful for a certain period of time. But today, these very same symbols are doing a lot of damage. Therefore we are trying to get rid of these symbols, by saying that there is no such thing as _Brahma_ , _Vishnu_ and _Mahesh_. There are only two; you and God. There is no one else. There is no _Yamraj_ (god of death) for sure. Get rid of all this talk from your mind. I am telling you 'as it is', so what need is there for these symbols now? When were these symbols needed? Back in the days when people kept cows and drank its milk and sat down to meditate. But their intellect ( _buddhi_ ) was not 'cultured' (interfering). The time back then used to be good where if someone wanted something, he would get it at his doorstep (easily). So then is anyone's intellect likely to become cultured? And in today's time one cannot get sugar, _ghee_ and other things, so see how 'cultured' the intellect has become. Such 'cultured' intellect was never to be found in any time era. But this intellect is _viparit_ (interfering, that which hurts others). You need someone to make that intellect _samyak_ (right intellect, that which helps others). That very same _viprit_ intellect; the Gnani Purush makes _samyak_ (that which accepts the path to the Self). One has the light but he is using it in the wrong direction. We need someone that will make him use it in the right direction. It is now that people have become thoughtful. There was never any thoughtfulness like this before. And during the era of _Satyug_ (the first of the Four Ages, characterized by unity in mind, speech and activity) there was no time to think. In the _Satyug_ , everything would come to your doorstep, so why would one need to think? So only in _Kaliyug_ (current era of the time cycle, where there is no unity in mind, speech and actions) one has to truly think!

All this is make-believe. In this world, no single person has been born who has the independent energy or capacity to go to the toilet at will. All these are symbols, which are put in place and so everything that has been written about them, is all incorrect. If the intellect cannot understand it, know that it is not correct. Why is it that our people's intellect can accept it? It is because our people have become ( _lihat_ ) lost their critical thinking and discriminating intellect. If you consider the foreign scientists, their _buddhi_ is clean. And what is our people's _buddhi_ like? It is _lihat._ Foreign people will tell you that this is not possible. Even my _buddhi_ has not become _lihat,_ right from the beginning, so I understood that people have started this needless nuisance. If it were true, I would immediately tell you that it is true. And at the stage where I am sitting presently, what do I have to say? This stage is such that I have to say 'yes' to that which is, and 'no' to that which is not. If I fail to say 'no', then people would get on the wrong track. I do not have any problems if no one asks me, but if they ask me, then I have to tell them whether something is correct or not.

Just look, have they not brainwashed people with _'Jamraj_ (aka _Yamraj_ – God of death'? There is no one like that at all! There was never a living entity called _'Jamraja'!_ That was _Niyamraj_ (death happening according to the law of life span _karma_ ), but just look how they have brainwashed people!

All the 'palaces' we had built have now become obsolete and therefore they give us the wrong 'fruits'. So demolish them! For how long will they give good fruits? As long as they are new. Then the 'fruits' will become mediocre, then below mediocrity and then it turns bad. So right now it is giving us 'bad fruits', so we have to do 'demolition'.

A house will be helpful as long as it is new, but what happens when it becomes old? Will it not become a headache? The supporting beams will deteriorate, the gutters will break down and the roof tiles will become loose and fall away. That is state of things currently! So, gone is the time where it was helpful to people. In fact it has not been helpful to people for so many years, but now on the contrary, it has bogged people down in confusion. And there is no substance to it.

Now, if we ask people 'who is _Brahma_ , _Vishnu_ and _Mahesha_?' They will say, 'They are _devas_ , are they not?' They do not understand this. No one other than a Gnani Purush can explain it in details. It can only be explained in details by knowledge that is beyond the intellect and not otherwise. But the entire world is trapped in intellect mediated knowledge.

And because one has not been able to understand these facts, delusion has taken hold.

**Questioner** : My delusion is gone now.

**Dadashri** : Yes, that is good. Ask anything you want. Here you can ask about anything.

## Moksha means to remain and grow in the attributes of the Self

**Questioner** : They talk about _moksha_ ; please explain what _moksha_ is?

**Dadashri** : _Moksha_ means to come back into the attributes and _dharma_ ( _guna dharma_ ) of the Self. It is to come back into nature ( _swabhav_ ) of the Self and to remain in the nature of the Self and to constantly be in the bliss of the Self; that verily is _moksha_.

## Understand 'correctness' from the Gnani Purush

**Questioner** : Some people of certain strong opinions and beliefs ask why wewant to go to _moksha_ and that over there, we will not have have our independent happiness. They make taunting remarks in this way.

**Dadashri** : They are simply throwing dirt over the ultimate stage. They are throwing dirt over that in order to run their own 'shops' (promote their beliefs). I have searched 'correctness', the ultimate exact truth. I have come here, having researched everything along the way and have brought all that knowledge and discoveries with me.

So if ever anyone claiming such a thing were to come here, he himself will say, 'Sir, give me _moksha_!' This is because it will not take long at all to change his opinion and beliefs. A belief should be _siddhantik_ (irrefutable principle).

**Questioner** : That is the aura of Your grandeur.

**Dadashri** : No, it is not like that. But here if there is anything that is untrue, it will not work. If it is the truth, then everyone has no choice but accept it. No one can obstruct the truth. His is not the truth and that is why he has to abandon it.

Still this is the world, so whatever they are saying, such is their development. If it were not that developed, then there would be no rituals and the intellect would not increase. After the intellect increases, there will be an increase in internal turmoil ( _badapo_ ) and only after the turmoil increases will one have a need for _moksha_.

As one's intellect increases, as a counter weight, his turmoils will increase proportionately, without fail. Yes, and the _Vedanta_ and such things are tools to increase one's intellect. So he keeps developing his intellect, more and more. So once the intellect increases, turmoil will increase. Then he will say, 'where can I go?' And the answer is 'go to the _Vitarag_. But the Lord has accepted both. One can attain _moksha_ through both the paths: the path of _Vedant_ as well as the path of _Jainism_. In both the paths, it is possible for one to remain independently in his path and attain the right Vision ( _samkit_ ).

## The bondage of the atma

**Questioner** : So then is the Self is independent ( _swatantra_ ) and free ( _mukta_ ), and _satchitanand -_ eternally blissful?

**Dadashri** : It is not independent. Now who told you that the _Atma_ is independent?

**Questioner** : The scriptures say that _Atma_ is independent.

**Dadashri** : No, it is _satchitanand_ but not independent. That is why it is in this predicament. If it were independent, it would get instant liberation right here. Can that take time? But it is bound in such a way! If a heavy iron chain bound it, then we could set it free by a gas-torch. But it is bound in such a way that it can never become free. The link that binds it is such too. What has Kaviraj written?

' _Adhaatu saankadiye Paramatma bandivaan'_

"The _Paramatma_ has been bound by chain that is not made of any matter ( _ignorance, prakruti_ )."

' _Adhatu chain_ ' means the chain of the _prakruti_.

Where did you read that the self ( _atma_ ) is 'independent'? When you read these books, are they certified or uncertified books?

**Questioner** : But the scriptures say that the Self ( _Atma_ ) is independent and free.

**Dadashri** : No one says that. If the self ( _atma_ ) were independent, then where would be the need to for the path to liberation? Tell those scriptures, 'Why did you become books. What did we need you here for? The _atma_ is not independent, and that is why you have been 'born' to help it become free from this bondage.' Would there be any need for the scriptures if the _atma_ were independent?

Those who say that ' _atma_ is not bound', can also say, 'it does not have _moksha_ ' also. And those who say ' _atma_ is in bondage'; they also have to say 'there is _moksha_ too'. This is not a thing of contradiction. Do you understand? Those who believe that the Soul is not in bondage means it has no need for _moksha_ because the Soul is in _moksha_. But one needs to understand what exactly _moksha_ is.

There are many who say, ' _Atma_ has no bondage at all.' That is true, but if the _Atma_ does not have any bondage, then why do you go to temples? Why do you read the scriptures? Who experiences worries? Is all this not a contradiction? It is hundred percent correct that ' _Atma_ does not have any bondage', but in relation to what are you saying that? This statement is an independent ( _nirpeksha_ ) statement. From the perspective of _Gnanbhav_ (Knowledge), there is no bondage to the _Atma_ but from the perspective of _agnan_ (ignorance of the Self, worldly interaction); it is bound. When 'You' attain the _Gnanbhav_ of 'I am _Shuddhatma_ – pure Soul', there is no bondage for 'You'. As long as there is the intent of 'I am Chandubhai', there is bondage for sure.

Anything experience of pain is considered bondage. Otherwise, people of the world are not even aware that 'I am in bondage'.

No living thing likes to be in bondage. Do you like bondage?

**Questioner** : No.

**Dadashri** : Despite that, in what do you have to live?

**Questioner** : In bondage.

**Dadashri** : You live the whole day in bondage. Every _jiva_ (living being) is living in bondage. Gnani Purush like 'us' is free, but rarely in any era of the time cycle One such Gnani Purush is around. Otherwise Gnani Purush can never be found in the world. A Gnani Purush is free; He is not bound by anything. So He does not feel any burden, He has no fear and nothing touches Him. That is how 'You' have to become. Only if a Gnani Purush is around, can you attain it from Him. For thousands of years, the Gnani Purush is not around. Rarely when a Gnani Purush is around, it is possible to become liberated.

## Moksha is attained upon meeting the giver of moksha

**Questioner** : Can it be said that _moksha_ is the end of expectations?

**Dadashri** : No, the nature of the Self is _moksha._

**Questioner** : So then why have people repeatedly talked about how to attain _moksha,_ the various paths?

**Dadashri** : Actually what it is, is that, they talk about _moksha_ in their own language. But really no one cares about _moksha_. All they want is, 'what about me, I am someone (special)'. That is all they care about. But if ever a true _Purush_ is met, _moksha_ is easily attained. People generally have self-serving intentions for the ' _hum'_ – ego, and the hunger for being important and recognized ( _maan-taan_ ) and so they have attained nothing worthwhile.

'I' ( _hum_ ) means ego ( _ahamkar_ ), and when that ego goes away completely, one becomes a God.

**Questioner** : Can one attain _moksha_ by asking for it?

**Dadashri** : You can get everything by asking, but provided there is a giver of _moksha_ present. There must be a bestower of _moksha_ who Himself is in _moksha_. Otherwise, no one should talk about _moksha_ elsewhere. There, one should talk about religion; they will guide you towards a good religion.

**Questioner** : Where can one look for a bestower of _moksha_?

**Dadashri** : 'This' here is the only One. Come whenever you want to. Or come after your friend attains _moksha_. When he gets the taste of it, ask him and then come here.

## Whose intention is it to attain moksha?

**Questioner** : _Moksha_ has to be done for the _jiva_ , no?

**Dadashri** : _Moksha_ has to be attained by the one who is bound.

**Questioner** : Who is the one that is bound?

**Dadashri** : The one who suffers ( _bhogavey_ ), the one who is suffering is bound.

**Questioner** : Particularly, what is 'his' name?

**Dadashri** : Who is suffering the state of bondage ( _bandhan_ )?

**Questioner** : _Jiva_ , is it not?

**Dadashri** : Do you not suffer it?

**Questioner** : Who is this 'you'?

**Dadashri** : So then who is suffering? _Jiva_? And do you keep seeing that? But you are saying 'I am suffering'.

**Questioner** : The question remains as to who is this 'I'?

**Dadashri** : That verily is the ego ( _ahamakar_ ).

**Questioner** : Is ego is verily the _jiva,_ no?

**Dadashri** : Leave _jiva_ aside. What does the _jiva_ have to do with it? A _jiva_ is not an entity, is it? It is an adjective used for the _Atma_ , ' _jivaatma'_ ; as long as there is an ego, one is a _jivaatma_. The _Atma_ becomes free when the ego goes away. And when the ego decreases and one attains the awareness of the Self, it is called _antaratma_. Then, having become _antaratma_ , it goes on to become _Paramatma_.

**Questioner** : So the intent ( _bhaav_ ) of attaining _moksha_ , to whom does that intent belong?

**Dadashri** : It is the intent ( _bhaav_ ) of the one who is bound. He has the desire to be free. So it is the _bhaav_ of the ego. The _Atma_ does not have such a _bhaav_ , it is already free, no?

**Questioner** : If the _Atma_ is not the sufferer, then what is it trying to be free from?

**Dadashri** : It does not have the _bhaav_ to be free; it is already free. It is the one who is bound that wants to be free. The sufferer ( _bhokta_ ) is the one in bondage and he is also the 'doer' ( _karta_ ). The doer is also the sufferer, and that is the one who wants to be free.

What it is; is that even the bondage has been created by the ego. It is also the one looking to be free. This is because the ego cannot tolerate the suffering anymore. 'It' 'knew' that it might find bliss but it found no such thing and so it is now looking for liberation. But the _Atma_ is free; by its nature it is free. If one understands only this much, his work is done.

##... and the coming and the going is also of the ego!

**Questioner** : And the _Atma_ is _ajanma_ (never born), right?

**Dadashri** : Yes, the ' _Atma_ the Self' by nature does not take birth. And the 'self- _potey_ (the one who is subject to belief)' too by nature is _ajanma_ (never born). But when the 'self' becomes 'the Self'( _Atmaroop_ ), then 'It' becomes _ajanma_. But as it is, he has become 'Chandubhai' and that is why he is subject to this 'temporary adjustment'. He becomes the owner of the body. He believes 'I am Chandubhai' and also 'this body is who I am', and so when the body dies, 'he' (ego) too has to die.

**Questioner** : If the _Atma_ is _ajanma-amar_ (never born-eternal), then who comes and leaves?

**Dadashri** : The _Atma_ is _ajanma_ - _amar_ , and pure. Only it has been affected by the five eternal elements, and when it becomes free from their effects ( _asar_ ), then the _Atma_ is free. It is _ajanma_ - _amar._ When the Self is realized, the cycle of birth and death, the coming and going will then come to an end.

**Questioner** : But who undergoes the cycle of coming and going (birth and death)?

**Dadashri** : It is the ego that goes through it. The _Atma_ remains in the same state. The ego then comes to an end, and thus the cycle ends.

Therefore, birth and death is not of the _Atma_. The _Atma_ is a permanent thing. Birth and death is of the egoism. 'Egoism' is what is born. And then he will tell the doctor, 'Sir, save me, please save me.' Hey you, are you not permanent? He will say, 'No, I am temporary.' So this is all the mischief of the 'egoism'. Only a Gnani Purush can remove that 'egoism'. 'Egoism' is a result of ignorance of the Self ( _agnan_ ) and that has given rise to this worldly life ( _sansar_ ). 'Egoism' has completely gone from 'us' (the Gnani Purush).

**Questioner** : I still cannot understand where the ego and the _Atma_ came together.

**Dadashri** : It is just an extra result ( _vishesha parinam_ ).

## No pain at all for the One established as the Self

**Questioner** : Whether one goes to heaven or hell, the _Atma_ is going to remain separate from the pleasure as well as the pain, right?

**Dadashri** : The _Atma_ does remain separate, but what good is that to us? As long as the ego exists, one suffers ( _bhogavey_ ) pleasure ( _sukha_ ) and pain ( _dukha_ ), and pain is what he does not like.

**Questioner** : But nothing happens to the _Atma_ , does it? That is what I am asking.

**Dadashri** : It is like this. Say if you had a gold guinea (old British gold coin), it will not pick up any rust at all. No matter where you leave it. Now if you lose that guinea; it does not suffer pain at all, but will you suffer pain or not? Similarly, the _Atma_ does not suffer at all; it is the ego that suffers. Therefore, one becomes _Atma_ when the ego leaves; and as long as the ego is present, one is not _Atma_.

**Questioner** : In this example, the guinea and I are separate, but is it really separate (ego and _Atma_ ) like this?

**Dadashri** : That too is separate, but you cannot see that. Just as you can see the guinea as separate, 'we' can 'see' the _Atma_ as separate.

**Questioner** : So can we say that despite being in the body, the _Atma_ is in _moksha_?

**Dadashri** : Yes, it is in _moksha_. But because 'we' give Gnan, 'it-the self- _potey_ ' becomes aware of its free state. But otherwise, the the Self is verily free within; it has no pain at all of any kind. But who is the one suffering pain? It is the ego! When it leaves, the pain leaves. The ego has given rise to all this, it has separated from God, it has created the divisive separation ( _bheda_ ).

**Questioner** : So then where is the _Atma_ in this?

**Dadashri** : _Atma_ verily is the _moksha_ state ( _moksha swaroop_ ). It has no other location. Its nature itself is _moksha_. All this has started due to _vibhaav_ (the extra intent, 'I am Chandubhai').

Just like this gold, there will be no change in its nature even if you keep it for thousands of years. And if gold and copper are mixed together, when it becomes a mixture, a change will happen.

**Questioner** : 'To attain _moksha_ ', what does that mean?

**Dadashri** : _Atma_ 's work is already done for sure. The one who was bound, is free now. The suffering of the pain, was due to the bondage; his suffering is gone, he became free.

The ego, who became separated from the Self, dissolved back in the Self (it's nature). And so the work is done. It was suffering pain because it had become separated from the Self. The wrong understanding had created the separation. A division had happened. People named him Chandu, so 'he' became absorbed in ( _tanmayakar_ ) that name. So 'his' work towards liberation became blocked. The _Atma_ is eternal ( _avinashi_ ). Its works has already been done. But when can it become free from here? When the intellect that creates the separation ( _bheda buddhi_ ) is broken.

**Questioner** : What does it do once it becomes free?

**Dadashri** : Then it attains _siddha_ _gati_ (abode of Souls with absolute Knowledge). It will remain in continuous absolute bliss ( _param anand_ ) there. As long as the body is there, a burden remains. There is a burden even from the body. The body through which bliss cannot ever be 'suffered', that body is burdensome to the Gnani Purush. But there is no choice! Until it has reached its limits of discharge, there is no escape from it, is there?

## Dualities perpetuate the bondage

**Questioner** : The _Atma_ does not attain another body once it goes to _moksha_ , but is every _Atma_ not already in _moksha_?

**Dadashri** : No, it is not like that. Infinite _Atmas_ have become trapped in circumstances this way. They are all trying to return to their own Self, which is _moksha_. But this non-Self ( _anatma_ ) does not allow them to come into their Self ( _swabhav_ ). And this non-Self world has been the same all along. So not all the souls have come into _moksha_ yet.

**Questioner** : So has the _Atma_ not seen _moksha_ yet?

**Dadashri** : No it has not. But otherwise its nature is _moksha_. But what are the circumstances like? They are in the form of duality. The inanimate ( _jada_ ) part, the non-Self part, is in duality. Duality means, profit-loss, pleasure-pain, attachment-abhorrence. In ignorance the self believes to be the owner of these dualities, and that is why it continues to remain in bondage. When the pressure of these circumstances decreases, one meets a Gnani Purush; he meets such _nimits_ (evidences), then he will attain _moksha_. Otherwise, _moksha_ will not happen. Nevertheless all the souls are headed towards _moksha_. But then it all depends on what kind of _nimits_ he meets; he makes detours accordingly. And those detours take place here in this human life form. Otherwise wherever he takes the detour, that is correct. If he finds a wrong _nimit_ , he can even take him to a life in hell or the animal kingdom!

## This human body worth if one can move towards moksha

**Questioner** : Is this body a necessary instrument to attain _moksha_?

**Dadashri** : The human body is the greatest instrument for attaining _moksha_. _Moksha_ cannot be attained even in the _devagati_ (abode of celestial beings), even not from the animal life form; it cannot be attained in any other life form. Only the human life form is such that migration to all the five life forms is open.

## Is moksha possible for every atma?

**Questioner** : When will all the souls reach the absolute state?

**Dadashri** : If all the _atmas_ were to go to _moksha_ , this worldly life ( _sansar_ ) would no longer be. So you want to destroy the worldly life? What do you wish for?

**Questioner** : There is Knowledge (Gnan) in the _Atma_ , so gradually that state will come when it goes to _moksha_ , no?

**Dadashri** : Yes, that stage does come. One does come into that stage, and they are going to _moksha_. When you say that may all the _atmas_ of this world go to _moksha_ means you made a _bhaav_ ( intention) for the worldly life to cease to exist. But this worldly life is a development of the _atma_ (self). The main _Atma_ is already developed, the _Atma_ itself is the absolute. But right now for us, this progress of ours is such that our belief has become firmly established in the body, 'I am this body.' As these beliefs gradually shift and move towards the _chaitanya_ _swaroop_ (the Self), that is when the absolute state ( _poornahooti_ ) will happen.

**Questioner** : So none of the _atmas_ is able to reach _moksha_ at all?

**Dadashri** : There are a many who do reach _moksha_ , no? I am in _moksha_ right now, am I not?

**Questioner** : Is it possible that all the _atmas_ go to _moksha_?

**Dadashri** : Will a mother and her child ever become of the same age? When they can become of the same age; that is when all the souls will go to _moksha_.

It is like this, 'may the entire world go to _moksha_ ' is a bhaavna (intent in effect) one is entitled to, but it can never come into fruition. When will it come into fruition? When a mother and a child will become of the same age.

One man told me, 'Why don't you take the whole world to _moksha_?' I told him, 'I will explain to you. If all the _jivas_ in the world become warriors, then who would they attack?' If all the _jivas_ of the world became doctors, who will they treat? If all the _jivas_ became barbers, whose hair will they cut? And if every _jiva_ became carpenters, whose work will they do?' so he says, 'I understand, I understand, I will not ask that again.'

It is nature's arrangement, so 'we' will not say that more people get together. It has already been arranged that everyone comes according to _vyavasthit_. Otherwise would 'we' not keep sending letters of invitation? But no, all those _hisaabs_ (account of _karma_ ) have already been put in place. So 'we' do not have to worry about it. 'We' just come here and go.

Did you understand all that? This worldly life itself is like a stream and that stream continues to flow since time immemorial. Sooner or later, everyone is going to _moksha_ ; that is the _kram_ (natural and orderly process). _Kram_ means that in one _samaya_ (smallest fraction of time), one hundred and eight souls verily are going to _moksha_ , like the flow of a stream!

**Questioner** : Where do the one hundred and eight Souls that go to _moksha_ come from?

**Dadashri** : They go from all the fifteen _khetras_ (locations); five _Bharat kshetras,_ five _Airavat kshtras,_ five _Mahavideha kshetra._

Just as you see a parade of policemen, a row of four following another row one by one, just like a stream that flows. Similarly, a stream of one hundred and eight Souls, go to _moksha_ from the worldly life ( _vyavahar_ ) to the abode of the liberated Souls ( _siddha kshetra_ ). The same number, come into _vyavahar_ _rashi_ (worldly life interacting universe) from the _avyavahar_ _rashi_ (souls without name and form in the non worldly interacting state). Therefore, there is not a single increase or decrease in the number of souls in _vyavahar rashi_. What are considered as worldly _jivas_? All _jivas_ that have been given a name. Those who have not been named have not come into _vyavahar_ yet. And those, whose name is gone, have all gone to _shiddha_ _kshetra_.

## 'Namo Siddhanam' – is the worship of the goal

**Questioner** : You say that there is no one above us, but is the _Siddhaloka_ not above us?

**Dadashri** : That is _Siddhloka_ or _Siddha khetra_ , and those who are there, they are done with their _karma_ , they will not listen to us and they will not speak about anyone; they have no empathy or such things for anyone either. They are in their absolute bliss. They cannot be of any use to us. They are there as the goal that we have to attain. When we say, ' _Namo Siddhanum'_ , it is simply as the goal; it is to say 'that is the state I want!'

**Questioner** : When we say ' _Namo_ _Siddhanam'_ , then does that obeisance reach them?

**Dadashri** : Even if it does not reach them, atleast it reaches the _Siddha_ (the absolute Self) sitting within you. The _Atma_ sitting within you is _Siddha_ ; is it not? All we care is about is whether our work is done or not. We should make our obeisance reach there and it is our responsibility to make sure it reaches. We should make sure that we send a message to them.

## The Siddha have no activity and yet there is activity

**Questioner** : Does God send here, those who have become _Siddha_ for for a specific purpose?

**Dadashri** : No one sends them. There is no one there to send them here. Nothing or no one is needed to send anyone here. This world is such that it does not need anyone. There is no superior over you. In this world, no one _jiva_ is a superior over another _jiva_. Only one's own 'mistakes' ( _raag-dwesh_ ) and 'blunders (the belief of 'I am Chandubhai; I am her husband, his father etc.) are his superiors.

**Questioner** : Then what is the activity of the _Siddhas_ in _Siddha_ _kshetra_?

**Dadashri** : That which has to carry out actions is considered mechanical. They are not mechanical.

**Questioner** : No, but once they go to _moksha_ , do they have any activities ( _pravrutti_ ) or are they inactive ( _nivrutti_ )?

**Dadashri** : There is no activity or inactivity there. Yet there is the 'activity' of Knowing and Seeing ( _Gnankriya_ and _Darshankriya_ , respectively). So there is inactivity and yet there is this activity also. It cannot be called as activity and there these actions are there.

## The magnificence of the Siddha kshetra

**Questioner** : So all the Souls that are in the _Siddha_ _kshetra_ , do they keep to themselves?

**Dadashri** : Yes, they have nothing to do with any other being. It is like this, no one in this world has anything to do, to give or take with anyone else at all. And whatever 'give or take' there is; it is just as a a _nimit_ (instrumental in a process). I too am a _nimit_.

**Questioner** : When I go to the _Siddhakshetra_ , do I just have to sit there all alone? And simply continue seeing only?

**Dadashri** : You do not have to 'just sit around', as you put it in your language. You do not have to sit around and you do not have to stand around either. You are not going to go there by being obstinate. It is completely different over there.

**Questioner** : Just continuously 'See', is that all?

**Dadashri** : Yes, but it is not something that one can imagine. You are trying to see through imagination, it is not like that.

**Questioner** : What is that _Siddhashila_ (abode of liberated Souls) like?

**Dadashri** : It is a place where _karma_ cannot stick to You even if it wants to, whereas here it will stick to you even if you do not want it to. Here, the _parmanus_ (subatomic particles) of _karma_ are everywhere. Here they are all ready to affect you, whereas there they do not have any effect at all. God! That is the eternal state!

**Questioner** : Are there no _parmanus_ in the _Siddha_ _kshetra_?

**Dadashri** : There is nothing there. From there, the _Siddhas_ can see all the _gneyas_ (that to be known) over here. There are no _gneyas_ there. The _Siddha_ _kshetra_ is an abode of liberated Souls.

**Questioner** : Is _Siddha kshetra_ within this universe or outside of this universe?

**Dadashri** : It is on the edge, the final edge of this universe. You understand it in your own language; each person one will take it in his own language. But it is not outside of the universe either; it is at the edge of it.

## The extraordinary state of the Siddhas; that is the ultimate goal

**Questioner** : Those in the _Siddha_ _kshetra_ who have become _Siddha_ (liberated Souls), can they be identified individually?

**Dadashri** : No, they are not individuals like that. They all have the awareness of their existence ( _astitva_ ), their elemental nature ( _vastutva_ ; the Self) and their absolute state ( _purnatva_ ) of 'I am'. That is all. There is no such thing as 'I am that' over there. They all remain in only the awareness, 'I am', the independent awareness! There is no other talk over there, no other unnecessary discussion. There is no divisiveness of individuals over there; there is interactive relationship there. All these over here are relationships of interaction; they are 'relative' relationships. And over there it is all 'real'. It is 'absolute', there is no interaction there. There, there the awareness of _astitva, vastutva_ and _purnatva_ remains.

**Questioner** : Everyone is in bliss there, are they not?

**Dadashri** : They all have the same bliss. Tremandous absolute bliss lies in the awareness of _vastutva_ (the Self).

**Questioner** : Just as there is a 'full house' in the cinema theatre, does it become 'full house' over there?

**Dadashri** : That is our imagination. There is so much vastness that, despite there being infinite _Siddhas_ there, infinite _Siddhas_ will continue to go over there. Everything over there is infinite.

**Questioner** : In this world, the _Atma_ can only exist if there is the presence of matter ( _jada_ ); otherwise can the _Atma_ survive alone?

**Dadashri** : What you said is correct. The _Atma_ cannot remain alone in this world. Only in the _Siddhagati_ , can the _Atma_ remain alone.

**Questioner** : Except for the _Siddhagati_ , there are no other situations where the _Atma_ can remain by itself!

**Dadashri** : Yes that is true.

**Questioner** : Is it also possible that one can encounter all this again when he goes to _moksha_?

**Dadashri** : No, there is nothing like that. It happens like that over here because here we have circumstances. In this world, there are such circumstances and things happen just that way. But over there, there are no such circumstances. So nothing like this will happen over there. Nothing of the sort is ever likely to take place over there again.

When two things come together, without giving up their own attributes, they give rise to an additional ( _vishesha_ ) attributes and phases ( _gunadharma_ ). That attitional attribute and phases is this _sansar_ (worldly life). Now this additional intent ( _vishesha_ _bhaav_ ) would arise even in the _Siddha_ _kshetra_ , if non-Self complex matter ( _pudgal_ ) were present there, but there is no _pudgal_ there.

**Questioner** : There is entry of the _Atma_ in the _Siddha_ _kshetra_ , but there are _parmanus_ outside, are there not?

**Dadashri** : They are outside the _Siddha_ _kshetra_ , they are only in the lower part. They are in a location in which they do not affect the _Siddhas_. The _Siddha_ _kshetra_ is situated between _loka_ (universe) and _aloka_ (limitless space beyond the universe).

**Questioner** : Does the state that exists in the _Siddha_ _kshetra_ have any effect on the _lokas_?

**Dadashri** : None at all. What has effect got to do with anything? There are no interactions. And _siddhas_ do not have any kind of effects at all.

**Questioner** : They may not be affected, but does their effect reach outside or not?

**Dadashri** : No, there is nothing here that has their effect. Still, it is our goal; we want to go there.

*****

# Part Two 'Who am I?' How can I know that?

## How can the cycles of birth and death end?

**Questioner** : Now, I would like to ask you what I should do to bring about an end to the cycles of birth and death?

**Dadashri** : You are asking this question now, in the fifth _ara_? (Fifth _ara_ – current era of the time cycle. One of the six divisions of time in one half of the time cycle. We are currently in the 5th _ara_ of the descending half of the time cycle, which started some 2500 years ago). When it was possible to do that in the fourth _ara_ ; you did nothing and stayed back to enjoy trivial worldly things; mere trivial things only. Now that you are here, there is no more a solution for it. You got to enjoy the trivial worldly things but there is no solution to stop the cycles of birth and death. Do think it is possible for you to let go of those trivial things?

**Questioner** : They may even go away.

**Dadashri** : Yes, in order to stop the cycles of birth and death, you will have to attain the knowledge of 'who you are'. You should attain the knowledge of the Self.

**Questioner** : Until one realises the purpose of his life, the rest of the talks are meaningless. Only that purpose needs to be known. That is where the main question arises.

**Dadashri** : Yes, this main question talk is right. Say there is a well-to-do factory owner. When he talks, two thousand men at the factory become happy. Such are his talks; that is how wise he is. He is very polite and respectful. But when he gets tired by the evening and has a small drink, what does he become like? His intoxication from the drink increases and he loses his senses. His awareness begins to become dim, giving rise to darkness.

**Questioner** : He will lose all his senses due to the intoxication from alcohol. How do people lose their spiritual awareness?

**Dadashri** : In spirituality, there is intoxication of _moha_ (illusion, illusory attachment), which does not go down. People are talking under the influence of that intoxication. All that you are saying, you are doing so having drunk the 'alcohol' of _moha_. I have removed these _mahatmas'_ intoxication. But yours has not been removed and therefore you keep talking under the influence of that intoxication. When the intoxication goes away, you will realize 'what the purpose of this life is'. You will know it right away. Just as the factory owner, becomes just the man he was when the intoxication of the alcohol goes away. How beautifully he starts talking again! So with him the intoxication is from the alcohol, whereas the world is intoxicated from _moha_ (illusion). We can get rid of the intoxication in a person who is intoxicated with alcohol by pouring cold water on him, but the intoxication of _moha_ will never go away. Then, whether you go to the Himalayas or anywhere else, wherever you look, you will see no one but 'intoxicated' people. They renounce their home, their wives and children but their ego ( _hum_ ) does not go away. They are constantly into, 'I, I, I'. One becomes a _Paramatma_ if his ego goes away. 'You' are a _Paramatma_. But you are not aware of that. You do not have the awareness, do you?

**Questioner** : We come back to the main thing about what should human beings live for?

**Dadashri** : They should live to attain _moksha_. Nevertheless those who do not have this understanding live for other goals; they live for a woman, for money, or they live for some other things. But it is all out of misunderstanding. They do not know the goal of human life so they make make anything they like a goal. If they know the goal, then they know that the true goal of this human birth is for attaining _moksha_. But, not knowing the path of _moksha_ , they make other things as their goal; the goal gets changed.

Whatever the people of the world do; it is all a _sansar_ (worldly life). No matter what they do, it is still a _sansar_ , not even for a moment do they leave the _sansar_. That is called ' _par_ _ramanta_ (being and playing in the non-Self)'. So what counts is the goal. The value lies in 'which goal' one is doing something. No matter what activities one performs, if it is for the goal of the _Atma_ (Self), then it goes towards the gaol of the Self only, and in that the activities are not material.

If your goal is to attain _moksha_ , and if that goal is strong, then you will definitely attain that path. Otherwise, people have all kinds of other goals in their minds. They say that their goal is for _moksha_ but within, their goals are for the worldly life ( _sansar_ ).

So many time cycles have gone by; this fifth _ara_ has come now but alas how is it that you are still not tired of the worldly life? The one who is qualified will find it very difficult and exhausting. But the one who is even slightly enamored with the worldly life, will like it a lot; he will find it very tasteful. The one who finds it tiresome will promptly find the path to _moksha_. The one with _moha_ will continue to wander around in the shops of life on his own. There is no telling how many more lives he will be wandering around for. This is a worldly life.

## The one 'seeing' the temporary is permanent

Man's puzzles will not be solved until he attains the answer of the questions, 'How does this world run? Who makes it run? Why does it run?' Look, how many kinds of puzzles have arisen?

**Questioner** : It is a puzzle if one believes it to be a puzzle; otherwise it is not.

**Dadashri** : 'If one 'believes' ', that word is used too commonly for a long time. It is not exactly that way. You may chose to believe that it is not a puzzle, but when the puzzle arises for you in your experience, then the belief is is not correct. A thing of belief cannot last too long, can it? If you believe that you have two hundred thousand dollars in your bank, and then you start writing checks, it will bounce. That which is believed lasts a short while, it is not the correct thing. A belief will last for a while. There is no meaning to that. In certains matters, believing will last.

**Questioner** : Except for the _Atma_ , everything remains only for a short time, does it not?

**Dadashri** : Yes, all this is what has been believed only, no? These are all wrong beliefs and they are all temporary adjustments. All these 'relatives' are temporary adjustments and the _Atma_ is the only permanent thing.

People have taken all that is prone to break (temporary) and have started interactions with it believing it to be permanent. Have you had some kind of an experience where you realize that all these things are temporary?

**Questioner** : The whole world is temporary, is it not?

**Dadashri** : Yes, that is exactly what I am trying to tell you. 'All these relatives are temporary adjustments'. And 'You' are permanent. Now, how can 'You' as a permanent entity ever go along with and all these temporary adjustments? Are 'You' not permanent too?

**Questioner** : How can I say that?

**Dadashri** : Do you have a next life or not? Have you not had a past life or not? You are not sure of that either, are you? But the one who accepts and believes in another life ( _punarjanam_ ), becomes permanent.

One temporary thing cannot understand another temporary thing. Only a permanent thing can understand the temporary thing as temporary. Are you able to understand that this glass can break? That means you are permanent and these glasses are temporary. Only that which is permanent can understand that which is temporary, as being temporary. Otherwise one temporary thing cannot understand another temporary thing. How can the temporary understand the temporary? Therefore, a temporary can be identified as temporary, only when there is a permanent there. Is there any point in calling something as 'temporary', if there is nothing permanent in this world? Why does something have to be referred to as being 'temporary'? We say it is temporary, because there is something permanent out there. Otherwise, what if everything were temporary? So does your _buddhi_ (intellect) comprehend this?

**Questioner** : Yes, because there is permanent, there is temporary.

**Dadashri** : Yes, based on the permanent thing ( _vastu_ ) that exists here, all other things are considered as being temporary. One that is permanent can understand 'this is flimsy; this thing here is flimsy. A glass is flimsy. This can be understood, no? If you were to drop this copper vase, you would not worry too much but what if this drinking glass were to drop from you hands?

**Questioner** : I will be afraid of breaking the glass.

**Dadashri** : Yes, the whole glass will shatter whereas all that will happen to the copper pot is that it will be dented. You will be able to fix that dent and it will become as good as new, but that is all temporary. Some last twenty-five years, some may last fifteen years. This body may last seventy-five years. All that is temporary. 'You' ( _Atma_ ; the Self) are permanent. But you believe yourself to be temporary. 'I am Chandubhai, I am this body, I am his son'. I want to get rid of all these mistakes of yours. You do want to get rid of the mistakes, do you not?

When people call other things as temporary; the 'one' calling other things as temporary, is permanent. Otherwise, there would be no such word as temporary. So this in itself proves that the one calling other things temporary, is permanent. But he does not realize this. Still do people not say 'temporary'? Therefore, you should check it out, that although he is not aware of it, when he says, 'temporary', he has to be permanent. It is a different matter, that he is making a mistake himself.

## What are my attributes? A big mistake in understanding this

This knowledge ( _gnan_ ) has not been lost. It is possible to rediscover it by 'adding and subtracting', provided a Gnani Purush shows you the way. Otherwise, it is beyond your imagination, your intellect will not go there. Your intellect is preoccupied in how you can make money and other things. Therefore, 'One' is permanent, but he is not aware of it. Should one not be aware of who he really is?

**Questioner** : Would one not know what his own attributes ( _guna_ ) are?

**Dadashri** : No, no one knows that. There is not a single person who is aware of his _guna_ (qualities of the Self). What he claims as his own attributes are really attributes of someone else (the non-Self). What he says are his attributes, are someone else's attributes. All 'your' attributes that you see, are not really yours; they are _aropit_ (false attribution of the belief) attributes. They are not 'Your' attributes and yet you claim them to be yours.

**Questioner** : I have some good and some bad attributes.

**Dadashri** : No. They both are falsely attributed qualities ( _aropit gunas_ ). Good qualities and bad qualities are all false talks. They are both 'cultured' qualities; it is 'cultured' talk. These 'good' or 'bad' attributes are not 'Your' attributes at all. 'Your' attributes are something quite different. Not a single one of those attributes you have seen or known. People have not known their own attributes either. It is for the goal of knowing the attributes of the Self that people come here. They come here because they want endless pleasure (bliss). They do not want these temporary pleasures.

The qualities that are there currently are of Chandubhai, not 'Yours'. Chandubhai and 'You' are both separate. In this body, You and Chandubhai, both are separate. 'We' can see you both as being separate, 'we' can see 'You, the Self', as well as Chandubhai. Therefore, you have to decide who you really are. 'Your' _kshetra_ (location) is separate in this body. If You remain in Your _kshetra_ , then You are the Knower ( _kshetragna_ ), and if you do not remain in your domain ( _kshetra_ ), then you become _kshetrakar_ (become one with location-Chandulal). You have to become a _kshetragna_ and then Know what all is going on in this _kshetra_ , in the self. What does _kshetragna_ mean? It means the Knower of the self. Therefore, You have to continously Know 'what is going on?' 'Who is doing the talking?' 'You' simply have to remain in your own state, and Know all this; that is all.

The happening of the final decision of 'I am pure Self'; is called the experience of the Self ( _atmanubhav_ ). And for this experience of the Self to happen, is it some ordinary thing?

## The hidden Self, a wonderous, wonderous state!

So what worth knowing in this world? What do you think?

**Questioner** : _Swa swaroop_ (the Self).

**Dadashri** : That is all. Except for that, there is nothing else in this world worth knowing! Only the Self ( _swaroop_ ) is worth knowing.

**Questioner** : Yes, but what must that wonderous _darshan_ (vision) be like?

**Dadashri** : That hidden _swaroop_ is wonderous. That is hidden from the world; it is hidden. That, which the entire world does not know, is the hidden Self and it is wonderous. There is nothing in this world that is wonderous. You can find all other kinds of things, but that which is hidden, is the only wonderous thing there is in this world. That is why the scripture writers have called it wonderous ( _adbhoota_ ), wonderous, wonderous a hundreds of thousand times.

## The main mistake lies in the belief

**Questioner** : But illusion ( _bhranti_ ) is there for us, do we not?

**Dadashri:** Illusion about what?

**Questioner** : There is an illusion about the Self ( _swaroop_ ), is there not?

**Dadashri** : But which _swaroop_ of yours is illusory and which _swaroop_ is without illusion? What part is under illusion and what part is without the illusion, don't you know? You have not made any divisions of this kind at all, have you?

**Questioner** : What is your definition of illusion ( _bhranti_ )? What do you consider as the state without illusion?

**Dadashri** : The Self is eternal; the properties the Self possesses are eternal. To believe temporary things to be Your own is considered as _bhranti_ – illusion.

**Questioner** : So it is a kind of ignorance ( _agnan_ ), is it not?

**Dadashri** : Heavy ignorance! To believe the 'foreign department (non-Self)' to be the 'home department (Self)', is the ignorance. If one believes the foreign department to be the home department, then what does he believe the home department to be? So he does not know the 'home' at all. And what does one gain from believing the foreign department to be the home department?

**Questioner** : No gain at all.

**Dadashri** : Then what harm is caused?

**Questioner** : If we do not know the Self, then everything is harmful.

**Dadashri** : It is harmful. Your real state is the 'home department'. In the 'foreign department' to keep saying with conviction, 'I am Chandubhai. I am a professor. I am her husband. I am fat. I am slim, etc', and that is called the illusion. There is nothing wrong in saying all this, but you have faith ( _shraddha_ ) in what he is saying. You combine _vyavahar_ (worldly interaction) and _nischasya_ (the Self); you combine the foreign and the home department, and then you say, 'I am Chandubhai.' O ho ho! How great a Chandubhai you are! People have latched on to this wrong thing. How can one possibly afford such a thing? What do you think?

**Questioner** : I cannot afford it.

**Dadashri** : So you need some kind of knowledge that will bring about an end to this. You cannot see the shore anywhere from this ocean of the worldly life. Sometimes they will tell you, let us go north. So you go north, then you meet someone else and he will say, 'come this way', you reply, 'but I just came from that direction!' But he will say, 'nevermind, but you have to go in this direction again'. So in this manner, one wanders around, wanders around, wanders around – he just keeps on wandering! But he cannot see the shore anywhere and the end is never in sight.

## Who will destroy that illusion?

That which disappears in time is called _bhranti_ (illusion). But everyday, we make strong all these illusions we have. When we say, 'I am Chandubhai. I am Chandubhai', everyday, then everyday, we create new illusion and the old illusions get erased. If we do not create new illusion, old ones will get dispelled. Everything is _viyogi_ (that which will dissociate) by nature. Even _bhranti_ (illusion) is _viyogi_ by nature.

Your very _Atma_ (Self), is who You truly are. But at the moment you have come under _bhranti_ (illusion). So where You, the Self are not; you project to be there through false projection ( _aarop_ ) of 'I am Chandubhai'.

## The difference between the destructible and the indestructible

When a person dies, there is a separation between temporary things and permanent things. The permanent things are real and eternal and the relative things are temporary.

**Questioner** : You said that relative is all temporary; destructible. Now the scientists' and the Hindu religion view states that no element in this world is destructible. So then what do you consider as destructible?

**Dadashri** : That is exactly what I am saying, that no element in this world is destructible. And that element is from the elemental vision. That element, you have not seen. Whatever you have experienced, has it all been temporary things or permanent things?

**Questioner** : Neither.

**Dadashri** : When cups and saucers break, will you consider them temporary or permanent?

**Questioner:** I do not consider them any different; they are the same thing.

**Dadashri** : The same? But all these other people do not consider it as being the same. For all these people, if the cups and the saucers break, they consider them as being temporary (destructible).

**Questioner** : But what is your opinion about destructible?

**Dadashri** : Temporary means that when these cups and saucers break, it will create a problem. If these clothes catch fire, it will create a problem. So they are all temporary things. This body – is it temporary or permanent?

**Questioner** : Even the body is not non-destructible.

**Dadashri** : Not destructible? So, all these people do not have your kind of knowledge. They have different kind of knowledge. They say that this body is destructible, whereas you say that it is not destructible. Would you not feel anything if cups and saucers broke at your home?

**Questioner** : I am asking for the definition of destructible from the scientific viewpoint.

**Dadashri** : No. You do not need scientific vision here, you need the vision of worldly interaction. In the worldly interactions, you need worldly vision.

I will also tell you what it is through the scientific vision. The scientific vision says, 'there is no reduction in a single sub-atomic particle ( _parmanu_ ) in this world, even if there are all kinds of destruction going on and also there is no increase in a single _parmanu_.' But will there not be some problem at home if some cups broke? If the clothes get burnt, would there not be discord at home? Would you not have suffering of pain if your home were to burn down? Therefore, they are considered destructible ( _vinashi_ ). _Atma_ (Self) does not burn in all that.

**Questioner** : Does destructible mean it is only a change of state?

**Dadashri** : Destructible means destruction of the situation ( _avastha_ ). The thing ( _vastu_ ) itself is not destructible; the element ( _tattva_ ) is not destructible. But the phases and situations that arise, they are the one that get destroyed. Even the people of the world are entangled in the situations, and that is precisely why they are called as destructible.

If these people were to go to the doctor and say to him, 'Sir, I have a fever', and if the doctor were to tell them, 'it is nondestructible', then that would be the end of it. The poor man will get very scared. So they say, 'fever is temporary, it will go away soon.' Do you understand what I am trying to say?

**Questioner** : Yes, now I understand.

**Dadashri** : Every phase and situation ( _avastha_ ) is destructible ( _vinashi_ ). The whole world remains immersed in these situations and consequently becomes restless. By dwelling in the situations, one becomes restless and by remaining in the Self, in the permanent state, one becomes at ease and peaceful ( _swastha_ ).

Therefore, the situation of things are destructible and the main thing (the Self) is indestructible ( _avinashi_ ). Only a Gnani Purush knows about the main _tattva_ (element) the Self). But people are immersed only in the situations.

## The illusion due to the mixture of indestructible and destructible

Now as long as one is in illusion, the destructible ( _vinashi_ ) and the indestructible ( _avinashi_ ) both function as one. When both are functioning as one, what does he do? 'I know this and I am doing this' that is what he says. So he speaks of the _dharma_ (nature and state) of both, the _dharma_ of the destructible and the _dharma_ of the indestructible mixed together, and that verily is the illusion! Then he says, 'I am Chandubhai'. Despite beig indestructible (the Self), 'He' says 'I am Chandubhai' out of unawareness. What is the reason? It is because the indestructible and the destructible have become combined, they have become like one. And from due to this apparent oneness of these two separate elements, _bhranti_ (illusion) has arisen.

**Questioner** : But the illusion has been created by the indestructible ( _avinashi_ ) element, right?

**Dadashri** : No one has created it; the _avinashi_ element would not create this. Do you understand? This illusion has arisen due to scientific causes. But otherwise no one creates the illusion.

**Questioner** : In a person both the destructible as well as the indestructible elements are together, so the conduct that he is doing, is the conduct of the indestructible only right? Because the realm and reign is of the indestructible, no?

**Dadashri** : The domain is not of the indestructible, at all. Even the conduct ( _vartan_ ) is not of the indestructible. The entire domain is that of the destructible. That is why 'we' make the division between the destructible (the non-Self) and the indestructible (the Self) for you. When 'we' destroy the demerit _karma_ ( _paap,_ sins), the separation between these two happens. Then the _Atma_ (Self) remains the Knower-Seer ( _Gnata_ - _Drashta_ ). So then the indestructible comes into its original nature, the Self and the destructible remains in the activities ( _kriyas_ ). The destructible (non-Self, _vinashi_ ) does not have the attribute of Knowing. Sympathy or other such feelings are not the attributes of the destructible. Then the destructible remains in the activities, while the indestructible Self remains the Knower-Seer. Both remain within their own nature. And what does one do in illusion? 'I know and I am doing', and that is why the weakness of anger-pride-deceit-greed have arisen.

## Parmatma sends the light and eternal bliss

**Questioner** : So then what is the work of the indestructible (the Self), living with the destructible (non-Self)?

**Dadashri** : It just gives the light ( _prakash_ ), nothing else. It has endless light; it gives that light. And it also gives bliss ( _anand_ ), but that bliss does not reach us, it becomes falsely projected. And how do we use that bliss? We do not believe that that bliss is coming from within us and that is why we say that we got the pleasure from this _jalebi_ (dessert). We do this false projection of the source of pleasure and that is why we say that we find pleasure in the _jalebi_. But it does not come from the _jalebi_ ; it comes from within us.

Therefore, pleasure does not exist in any thing, or in gold etc. If were indeed the source of pleasure, then one would have wonderful sleep on a bed of gold, right?

**Questioner** : No he will not.

**Dadashri** : Therefore pleasure does not lie in gold. All this pleasure is created out of imagination that 'there is happiess in this', 'there is pleasure in that', and consequently that is what it appears to be. And so the main true bliss ( _anand_ ) gets covered up. 'We' remain in continuous true bliss which arises naturally, and is of the Self! And all this other _anand_ is imaginary, the pleasure too is imaginary and the pain too is imaginary.

## Worshipping the Self brings bliss of the Self

So we separate the Self for you so that You then come into Your natural bliss. You will not have worries or any other problems; why do you have worries? It is because you say, 'I am Chandubhai' and 'I verily am the doer'. Can man do anything? Is he doing it or does it happen?

**Questioner** : 'It happens' - does that mean that one does not do it himself?

**Dadashri** : Yes, that is all. When he tries to do it himself, it creates an illusion ( _bhranti_ ), and because he becomes the 'doer', worries arise. Do you understand this? The Self is the non-doer ( _akarta_ ), but he has taken on the state of the 'doer' and having taken on the sate of the doer, a state of suffering also arises. As he became the doer, he also became the sufferer. And so all day long there are worries and problems! Then he feels hurt when someone insults him.

So 'we' have to give this Gnan so that one comes into his own Self. Here the Self remains in the Self and the non-Self in the non-Self. There is _chetan_ (the Self) in every _jiva_ (living being), it gives only light, nothing more.

All these destructible things are relative, all these relatives are temporary adjustments and You are real and permanent. But this 'temporary' and 'permanent' have become one. 'We' separate them for you by putting a line of demarcation that 'this is that' and 'this is not that'.

**Questioner** : What happens to the indestructible ( _avinashi_ ) when it separates from the destructible ( _vinashi_ )?

**Dadashri** : Then these pains are not there anymore. One does not have the worldly pains like, 'this is what happened, and that is what happened'. Then he will not be afraid even when the time of death comes. He will not get upset if he is robbed or if his wife curses him; no pain of any kind will arise for him. Therefore when the indestructible separates from the destructible, each will come to remain in its own domain. What else can happen?

**Questioner** : What happens after death for the One who has had such a separation?

**Dadashri** : After death, one more life is left. This is because he follows the five Agnas that 'we' give; he will have one more life.

## Such is the nature of the world

**Questioner** : There are many things about the way this world functions that we cannot understand. Such as people who come to you are able to receive Self-realization ( _Atmagnan_ ), but why do others not get it?

**Dadashri** : This _Atmagnan_ is not for everyone.

The whole world is like a flowing stream. Therefore, that much water that meets the ocean, finds freedom and the rest of the water in the stream will find it when it reaches there. Therefore this whole world is like a stream and so not everyone will attain it right away.

**Questioner** : Some pebbles reach the ocean, some remain half way, why is that?

**Dadashri** : All that is based on scientific circumstantial evidences. So as long as the illusion ( _bhranti_ ) exists, there is no liberation.

## Doership verily is the illusion

**Questioner** : All these people have the illusion ( _bhranti_ ), please show us how we can get rid of that illusion?

**Dadashri** : What is the illusion about? Did you understand that?

**Questioner** : One has not known his Self.

**Dadashri** : That is all; just that much of an illusion has arisen. One has become unaware of his Self; only this much of an illusion exists, there is no other illusion.

**Questioner** : What is the vehicle through which that illusion can be eliminated? Please grace us with this understanding.

**Dadashri** : One is the doer ( _karta_ ) of _karma_ and therefore he is the sufferer ( _bhokta_ ) of that _karma_. What is that? He gives the support to the _karma_ by saying, 'I did that.' There is no _jiva_ (living being) in this world that can 'do' anything. Saying 'I did it' is verily the illusion, and that verily is the ego. It is the ego that is displaying itself. All this is nothing but 'it happens'. Everything just happens. And to that which is just happening, one says, 'I did that. I am doing it'. Even if one were to do nothing, he will get his morning breakfast on time.

Now what is the means of removing this illusion? It will go away if a Gnani Purush can make him realize 'who he is'. Therefore, the illusion will go away if he meets a Gnani.

In this world, when the two _bhaavs_ (intents) of 'I am doing' and 'I know' are made together; that is called the illusion ( _bhranti_ ). 'We' (the Gnani Purush) do not have the awareness of, 'I am doing' at all. Since attaining the awareness of 'the Self', 'I' have not had the awareness of 'I am doing'; 'I' have not been the owner of this body, at all. 'I' have not had the ownership of this mind-speech-body complex for the past twenty-five years!

## If one has not heard about, believed in or known the Atma, then...

So the _Atma_ is a different thing. Knowing the _Atma_ (the Self) is the same as knowing the _Paramatma_ (absolute Self). And the One who knows the _Paramatma_ , _moksha_ has happened for Him

All this is to know the _Atma_. And if one does not get to know the _Atma_ , then faith in it is necessary. You have to believe that 'I am the _Atma_.' Such has to be the conviction ( _pratiti_ ). And if one still does not attain that, then one should hear about the _Atma_. One should keep hearing talks about the _Atma_ everyday.

Hence the scripture writers have written that the one, who has not heard, believed or known the _Atma_ , such a person is not qualified for the path of liberation at all. So, a solution can be found if one understands all this, otherwise one cannot find it.

## The Gnani dissolves spiritual darkness

There has been spiritual darkness in this country since the past twenty five hundred years. There have been one or two Gnanis during that time, but the light ( _Gnan_ \- Knowledge) cannot reach everywhere. And when one goes beyond the layers of the mind, goes beyond the layers of the _buddhi_ (intellect), only then can this light reach him. People outside India have not even reached the layers of the mind. They are still involved in the activities of the _nischetan_ (effect) mind. They have not yet seen or heard of the _chetan_ (charge) mind. And they do not need to either. If you tell them that there is _Atma_ within, they can somewhat understand that there is some element there. They will not believe that it is the _Atma_ , but they do believe that there is something within. If you talk to them about reincarnation ( _punarjanam_ ); they will not accept that.

So, one has to know the _Atma_. All the religions of India tell you to know the _Atma_. There is no discussion about the _Atma_ in the foreign countries. They will tell you, 'I am William; I am myself William', and they do not believe in reincarnation, so then they cannot be aware of the _Atma_. Only those who believe in reincarnation will have the belief of 'I am separate and so is my _Atma_ '.

And the _Atma_ is such a thing that, one can say that, no one except the _keval_ _Gnanis_ (the Ones with absolute Knowledge) have been able to find it. Those who had become _'kevalis'_ (fully Self-realized) became so by doing _darshan_ of other ' _keval Gnani'_. But the true discovery was made by the Tirthankara, the _keval Gnanis._

Therefore, the _Atma_ is not something that is possible to find. How can one find the _Atma_ in this body? _Atma_ is something that can pass through a house, even if there were thousands of walls here, it can pass thorough them. So how is one to find the _Atma_ in the body?

## Gnani can help one experience the Self

**Questioner** : So then people involved in the world can never attain the _Atma_?

**Dadashri** : It is nothing like that. You verily are the _Atma_. But you yourself do not have the awareness of 'how, you are the _Atma_ ' but otherwise you are the Self.

When the Gnani Purush gives you _Atmagnan_ , how does he give it? He places a line of demarcation between illusory knowledge ( _bhrant gnan_ ) and the knowledge of the Self ( _Atmagnan_ ); between knowledge of the non-Self ( _jada gnan_ ) and knowledge of the Self ( _chetan_ _gnan_ ), so that there is no possibility for the mistake to happen again. Thereafter the Self will forever remain in the awareness; not even for a second will that awareness go away.

Right now, within you, the function and properties of the _Atma_ (Self) and _anatma_ (non-Self) are indeed separate. But for you both the results come out together and so you do not find taste in it. When there is a resultant mixture of both their inherent functions, everything becomes tasteless. And for the Gnani Purush, the effect of the Self and the effect of the non-Self remain separate. Both the streams run separately and that is why there is eternal bliss.

It is like this; eating, drinking, bathing, getting up, sleeping, arising etc., are all functions of the body. And people are absorbed only in the functions of the body. One has not come into the domain of the Self for even a second. Had he come into the domain of the Self, he would not have moved away from God, for even a second.

## Constant uninterrupted thoughts about the Self are useful

**Questioner** : Should a _jiva_ (a living being) do thinking?

**Dadashri** : About what?

**Questioner:** Should one think about what he has heard from you or what he may have read?

**Dadashri:** Yes, one has to think about it and extract the essence, no?

**Questioner:** So is it necessary to think?

**Dadashri:** Yes, there is a need but only up to a certain extent.

It is like this, the thinking has to be done to the point of attaining the _Atma_ ; thereafter there is nothing to think about. Thinking is the function ( _dharma –_ religion) of the mind. Therefore, after attaining _Atmadharma_ , there is no need for _manodharma_. After that, there is no need for the _dharma_ of the body, _dharma_ of the mind, _dharma_ of the intellect _dharma_ of the _antahskaran_ because the _dharma_ of the Self has been attained.

**Questioner** : So then is there a need for anything after coming into the Self ( _swadharma_ )?

**Dadashri** : No, after coming into the religion of the Self ( _swadharma_ ), there is no need for anything else. All these _mahatmas_ have come into _swadharma,_ so there is no need for them to think. But as long as one has not come into the religion of the Self, there is a need for thinking.

**Questioner** : Because Krupadudev has said, ' _Kar_ _vichaar_ _toh_ _paam_ (If you think you will attain)'.

**Dadashri** : Yes, he said to think in order to attain. But thoughts are all veils. Nevertheless, what Krupadudev has said is correct. Those thoughts are very superior; they are not like the thoughts people think about.

**Questioner** : No, no! Not those thoughts; only thoughts about the _Atma_.

**Dadashri** : That is it. Only thoughts related to the _Atma_. And that too, what kind? They should be such that there is no inturruption in their flow. There should be no interruption or scattering in the flow of thoughts. If one's thoughts are like that, then he will be able to understand a little something about the _Atma_. But otherwise it is very difficult to understand the _Atma_. And if one meets the Gnani Purush, it is possible to attain the _Atma_ very easily.

All these _mahatmas_ have attained the _Atma_ and they can all see your _Atma_ through their divine vision ( _divya_ _chakshu_ ).

Once _swadharma_ (the religion of the Self) has been attained, there is no need for _manodharma_ (the religion of the mind). There is no need for any religion. So there is no identification with the body ( _dehadhyas_ ). One's association with the body is gone, right?

**Questioner** : We still cannot get rid of our _dehadhyas_.

**Dadashri** : How can _dehadhyas_ be dispelled, through _dehadhyas_ ('I am this body')? You want to get rid of _dehadhyas_ but you are in _dehadhyas_ , so how can you become free from it? _Dehadhyas_ cannot remove _dehadhyas_. Krupadudev has said to look for such a Gnani who has become a savior ( _tarantaran_ ) and you will find the solution.

## He is not giver of moksha, if he cannot give you moksha

**Questioner** : There must be some keys to knowing the Self, no?

**Dadashri** : There are no keys or anything such thing. You have to go to a Gnani Purush and tell him, 'I am a complete fool. I have been wandering for endless lives, but I have not known even a fraction's worth or even a hair worth of the Self. So bless me with at least that much', that is it and your work will be done. That is because the Gnani Purush has come to give you the gift of _moksha_.

Then people complain, 'then what is to become of our worldly life interaction?' After knowing the Self, the rest is considered as worldly interaction ( _vyavahar_ ). And even for the worldly interaction, the Gnani Purush gives you special directives telling you, 'Now follow these five Agnas. Then your worldly interaction ( _vyavahar_ ) and your Self ( _nischaya_ ) will be pure and then all the responsibility is 'ours' (the Gnani's).'

And you should experince _moksha_ , while living here in this world. If you do not, then it is not real _moksha_. After meeting 'me', if you do not experience _moksha_ , then the 'Gnani' is not real and neither is the _moksha_ real. You should experience _moksha_ , here in this very time cycle of the fifth _ara_. You should experience _moksha_ while carrying on your routine way of dressing. Who knows what you are going to experience when you go there (next life). So you should understand everything about the Self, from the Gnani Purush.

## From time immemorial the mistake of determining the Self

**Questioner** : I feel that one should not rush to determine about what is the Self?

**Dadashri** : Yes, there is no need to rush. Ask as many question as you have, 'we' are ready to give you the answers. And whatever decision you want to make, you can do so here. You have to make that decision first, and only during that time you have to be very careful. Once the decision is made, there is no need for carefulness. So there is no need to make the decision in a hurry because you have to destroy the mistake of infinite past lives. The mistake that you have not destroyed for infinite lives; that mistake has to be destroyed and what is this mistake that you have made for infinite past lives? For infinite past lives, you have made the mistake in determining, what is the Self. That mistake has to be destroyed. So there is no need to rush into it, is there?

The Self is such that it will not come into your vision. Now to the point where some of your own knowledge 'knows', the Self is way beyond that point; so not even your own knowledge will be able to reach there. Your Self is such that it is where your vision is not able to reach; it is where your knowledge is not able to reach; that is _Atmaswaroop_!

Therefore, to know 'who am I?' is indeed the Self. And that, only the Gnani Purush alone, can make you realize. Then there is nothing like taking birth or dying. Thereafter the dying comes to the body, not to the Self. And there is _moksha_ after one or two more lives.

## Every instrument of freedom became a source of bondage

**Questioner** : Can you show us a way, a method or a person ( _sadhan_ ) through which we can attain _Atmagnan_ (Knowledge of the Self)?

**Dadashri** : There have been many instruments ( _sadhans_ ), but _jivas_ have become trapped in the instrument itself. People become dogmatic ( _abhinivesh_ ) about the very instruments they have. One can make progress if he remains alert so that no 'disease' enters within. But one becomes absorbed and loses himself in that very instrument itself. So if you meet a Gnani Purush, who has become liberated, he can help you become free too. But until then, if you can be with a saint ( _sant_ _purush_ ) then there is no better merit _karma_ you can earn.. But how can one escape the _trividha taap_ ( the turmoils of the mind, speech and body) of the worldly life? Nevertheless, these saintly people sprinkle water over you and there is some cooling comfort from it.

**Questioner** : But how can one progress forward without the refuge of some one ( _sadhan_ )? A person needs some kind of a _sadhan_ , does he not?

**Dadashri** : All these instruments (scriptures and gurus) have bound you. Who has bound you? All these instruments bind you. Whatever instruments people have created, those same instruments have bound them.

**Questioner** : So then how should one think about moving ahead? How can we get out of this entanglement?

**Dadashri** : If someone asks you, 'Have you ever seen flowers in the sky?' what would you say?

**Questioner** : I would say 'It is just a figment of the imagination or illusion.'

**Dadashri** : And this here is the Self; how will you be able to find it? It is not a thing of imagination.

So then how will you know the Self? The Self itself is science. And all the instruments and remedies you resort to, the instrument of knowledge that you make (scriptures and gurus) is knowledge that is dried up and does not give results ( _shushka gnan_ ). So in that you have to do everything. Whereas science works by itself ( _kriyakari_ – naturally active); it does the work by itself, you don't have to do anything. And the Self can be known through science ( _vignan_ ). There is no other instrument through which the Self can be known. I just showed you the _sadhan_ ( _vignan_ ). Now will you 'do' this science?

**Questioner** : I did not understand, which science?

**Dadashri** : _Atmavignan_ \- the science of Self-Realization. The Self ( _Atma_ ) can be realised only through this science. Otherwise, you will find knowledge of realising the Self in the scriptures, but you cannot actually realize the Self with that, because it cannot be described through words and so you cannot put it on scriptural papers. It is beyond words ( _nishabdha_ ), indescribable ( _avarnaniya_ ) and inexpressible ( _avyaktvya_ ). It is nothing like the way people have imagined it to be. They simply believe it to be that way and it carries on that way day and night. This is how things have been allowed to carry on and for infinite past lives one has been wandering around aimlesslessly without reducing a single lifetime.

## You cannot get rid of your ego by your own efforts.

**Dadashri** : What is your name?

**Questioner** : Chandubhai.

**Dadashri** : Are you convinced that you are really Chandubhai?

**Questioner** : People have given me that name.

**Dadashri** : So then who are you really? Do you not say, 'My name is Chandubhai'? Then who is the one saying 'my'?

**Questioner** : That is what I am searching for. 'Who am I?' is what I have to search for.

**Dadashri** : How long have you been searching for that?

**Questioner** : For two years.

**Dadashri** : Were you not searching before? Why not?

**Questioner** : I did not find any need for it and I did not have the understanding on that line.

**Dadashri** : O ho ho! You did not understand that you needed to know that! That is fine! So there is a need to have this knowledge of 'Who am I?' Once you know this, everything will be resolved. Now, in all this 'Chandubhai' is your name, but who are you?

**Questioner** : Actually I am a human being.

**Dadashri** : This body looks like a human being; one can call it a man. The shape of the body is that of a human being. But 'you', cannot be called this human being! Is this body 'yours'?

**Questioner** : The body is not mine.

**Dadashri** : Do you not feel any effects from this body? Do you feel cold? Do you feel hot?

**Questioner** : The body experiences that.

**Dadashri** : The body experiences it, but 'You' do not experience it, do you? Do you experience the effects of the body? What kind of effects? You can feel the effect of what is yours. That which is not yours will not affect you. Are you able to understand this? So what is it that is making us feel the effect? We feel the effect of only that which we believe to be ours. Because one says 'this body is mine', he is affected by it. Even in sleep he has this awareness. Even in sleep he will say, 'this body is mine. Even the name is my own'. Now can you abandon what is yours?

So this I ( _hoon,_ ego here) is not something that you can become free from. The I is the biggest of ghosts possessing you. Many will say, 'this body is not mine. This is not my son. This is not my wife. No body is mine!' They will continue doing this in vain, but ultimately the I is there for sure, no? So where will you go? And how can you abandon this body? You can throw away other physical things, where will you throw this body? But if you go to a Gnani Purush, he will liberate you. Do you understand?

## Will the enquiry into 'Who am I?' ever succeed on your own?

**Questioner** : Actually, I too am trying to understand the Self?

**Dadashri** : When will that effort to understand ever come to fruition? How will you make an effort to understand when 'you' are 'Chandubhai'? And in reality 'you' are not 'Chandubhai' at all. 'Chandubhai is your name. You are this boy's father; but that too is the _vyavahar_ worldly interaction. And all that,'we' accept readily for sure. There is nothing new there. The name is a means to identify people. So you need to investigate who you are, and that investigation you need to do with the Gnani Purush. You have to realize that from the Gnani Purush.

## This is someone else's mail that you have opened

**Dadashri** : You are convinced that you are Chandubhai, are you not?

**Questioner** : No, it is a common name that people use. I am actually, 'I am _Atma_ ', that is all; nothing else.

**Dadashri** : Yes, you are _Atma_ , but when someone insults Chandubhai, you do not accept his 'mail', do you? If you do, then you are Chandubhai. Then you cannot say that it is what people say. Why do you accept the mail addressed to Chandubhai? That means you have become Chandubhai.

**Questioner** : A person has to do everything if he is to live in worldly interaction, does he not?

**Dadashri** : No. You can remain in the worldly interaction ( _vyavahar_ ) without accepting Chandubhai's mail. You can say, 'Dear man, this is Chandubhai's mail. I do not have any objections. You can insult him as much as you want'. But here you live as Chandubhai. You want to take all the winnings of Chandubhai, and then you claim, 'I am _Atma_ '. So is it possible for you to become _Atma_ by doing that?

## Detachment to the worldly life atttained through grace

**Dadashri** : How can you be assured that 'You are the Self'?

**Questioner** : For that I have to meet a _guru_ like yourself where I hear about how the body and the Self are separate; I have heard such spiritual talks ( _upadesh_ ). But there is a lot of difference between you and me, is there not? I am a worldly person ( _sansari_ ); I am like the people who live in illusory attachment ( _moha_ - _maya_ )....

**Dadashri** : And are 'we' not _sansari_? 'We' too are _sansari_. Anyone that has the need to go to the toilet, anyone who looks for a toilet; is a worldly interacting person ( _sansari_ ). Anyone who has to relieve himself in the toilet are all _sansari._

**Questioner** : But is it possible for anyone like me who lives in the world to attain knowledge of the Self ( _Atmagnan_ )?

**Dadashri** : It is like this. There are two types of worldly life; a renouncer's worldly life ( _tyagi_ ) and a family man's world ( _grahasti_ ). There are both kinds of worldly lives. The one who renounces, lives by the knowledge of 'I have renounced this...I have renounced that'. And the family man lives with the knowledge of 'I am acquiring this...I am getting this...I own this'; this is the knowledge he lives by. But if he realizes the Self, then he will attain liberation.

**Questioner** : But can one remain aloof and detached despite living a worldly life and fulfilling all his worldly obligations?

**Dadashri** : That is what the Gnani Purush has. The Gnani Purush has the science that He gives you, with which you can do everything; your worldly life as well as your Self. Such is the science the Gnani Purush has.

I am able to carry on a conversation with you. So I am able to live a worldly life and I am also able to live in my Self. I can do both. There are activities of necessities in the worldly life, which I also perform. You can live in the world as well as live in the Self. The Gnani Purush has the complete science, which is not to be found in the scriptures. According to the scriptures, one can only become free if he renounces everything!

To live with people in this way and pass your days and to live in such a way as to not bind any _karma_ – how is one to live this way? I will teach you all that knowledge. I will give you such knowledge that You never become smeared ( _nirleyp_ ) with anything. Otherwise this world is such that it will not refrain from tainting everything. Just like a water lilly, despite growing in the muddy water, it remains undefiled and untainted. I will show You such a state of remaining absolutely unaffected.

So from whom do you have to learn about the Self? Form the Gnani Purush. These 'gnanis' of scriptures do not have knowledge of the Self. If they have indeed attained the Self, then they would be with the vision of the Self ( _samkit_ ), and _samkit_ means despite living in the world, One remains untouched by the worldly life. And such a state is attainable by the grace ( _krupa_ ) of the Gnani Purush.

## A complete explanation removes all entanglements

There are many who talk about only the Self in their teachings. They whisper in your ears and tell you, 'Say 'I am _Atma_ '.' Hey you! But what is _Atma_? And if 'I am _Atma_ ', then what is all this rest? What is the rest?' Will such a question not arise? What 'we' have said here is, 'By relative viewpoint it is 'this' and by the real viewpoint it is 'this', you should say both.' These people have no such thing as a 'viewpoint'; they suffer from both sides. The whisperings in the ear may remain momentarily but later people get confused again. Should a railway line not have parallel tracks? Or is it acceptable for the tracks to be crooked? It does not matter if you want to travel in a circle or sideways but make sure that you keep the line of 'real' and 'relative' parallel.

##  One forgot the Self in relations

So 'Chandubhai' is only a name for the worldly interactions ( _vyavahar_ ). One was 'real' but became 'relative'; the illusion ( _bhranti_ ) arose because of many relations. Then he claims, 'I am Chandubhai'; that is called egoism.

## There is no belief of who You really are

**Questioner** : What is 'real' and 'relative'? How are they related?

**Dadashri** : All that is relative ( _sapeksha_ ) is destructible ( _vinashi_ ). It is an English word. And 'all these 'relatives' are temporary adjustments and real is the permanent'. Real is called permanent. Relative means it is dependent on others; it lives with support from others.

There is light because there is darkness. Otherwise, what will you consider as light? If the light were to be there permanently, then who would call light as light? Therefore in relation to darkness, there is light. And what is the support for darkness? In relation to light, there is darkness. That is called as being 'relative'. Anything with expectations is considered as being 'relative' and that relative is temporary; it is constantly changing. And 'real' is a permanent thing.

There are six permanent things (eternal elements) in this world. Of the six, _chetan_ (the Self) is permanent. The rest of the five elments do not have the Self ( _chetan_ ), nevertheless, they too are permanent and they have infinite attributes and phases ( _gunadharma_ ). Due to the attributes and phases of all the six; this relative _bhaav_ ('I am Chandubhai'), has arisen. The Self remains constantly as Self; it constantly remains as _Chetan_ ( _Atma_ ). It has not changed even for a second. It is just that a wrong belief has arisen.

There is no belief of who You really are, and a belief of what you are not has set within. Those are all wrong beliefs and they are all relative; not real!

**Questioner** : What does one have to do in order to go to the real stage?

**Dadashri** : You have to realise the real. When 'we' give you this Gnan, you realise the real.

## Liberation requires understanding the siddhant

**Questioner** : But in the book it is written that if one puts his mind into _Atma_ , then his liberation will happen.

**Dadashri** : Yes, but one can do that after knowing the _Atma_ first, how can one do that otherwise? Until you realize the Self ( _Atma_ ), what would you call as 'Self'? Has it not been written that you cannot burn the Self if you try, you cannot wet it with water if you try, etc?

**Questioner** : Yes.

**Dadashri** : But now you can even buy watches that are waterproof and fire proof! So what I am trying to say is that the Self is not waterproof or fireproof like the watches! It is an abode of infinite attributes and it is _Paramatma_. When it comes into the state of the _kevali_ (the Ones with absolute Knowledge) it is called _Paramatma_ and when it is not in the _kevali_ state but has support of words, then it is called as ' _antaratma'_. As long as there is a dependency of 'words', it is called ' _antaratma'_. Still, there is not much of a difference between the _Paramatma_ and the _antaratma_. _Antaratma_ is on its way to becoming _Paramatma_ , whereas the other is already a _Paramatma_ ; that is the only difference.

**Questioner** : It is said in many verses of the scriptures that by daily reading of particular verses, it is possible for one to experience all the worldly pleasures and attain the _Paramatma_. If that is the case, then why should one put effort into attaining _Atmagnan_?

**Dadashri** : It shows you a way that if you have bound merit _karma_ ( _punyai_ ), you will progress higher and some day you will find a path to _Atmagnan_. But the one who has bound just demerit _karma_ ( _paap,_ sin) will not find that path, will he? Therefore, it was said to encourage people. But truly it is not the cause for liberation.

Religion must always be _siddhantik_. _Siddhantik_ means it nener gives rise to any controversy and it gives results. It is _siddhantik_ if it gives immediate results, if it does not, then how can you call it _siddhantik_? Anything that becomes _siddha_ (accomplished) means it has come to an end and that one does not have to make it all over again. For always, it remains _siddha_ accomplished; in the past, present and the future ( _trikaad_ ); that is called as ' _siddhantik'_.

_Atma_ is the Self. Realising the Self, one realizes the whole world. Both, ego ( _ahamkar_ ) and 'my-ness' ( _mamata_ ) go away at the same instant Self-realization is attained.

For example, you own a home that you like very much but you are forced to sell it because you have a lot of debt. Once you sell it and get money for it, is your 'my-ness' ( _mamata_ ) for it likely to be there?

**Questioner** : The 'my-ness' will be gone.

**Dadashri** : Why? For forty years it was yours, no? Do you feel hurt if it burns down after you sell it?

**Questioner** : No.

**Dadashri** : It is because your 'my-ness' ( _mamata_ ) is gone. Similarly, the ego ( _ahamkar_ ) and 'my-ness' ( _mamata_ ) go away the moment the Self is known (experienced).

## The Samadhi of the state of the Self prevails

One is a _Paramatma_ but what happens when he is not aware of that? Until then he acts according to the awareness he has, he has only the belief ( _bhan_ ) of 'I am Chandubhai, I am Chandubhai, I am her husband', he acts with all such beliefs only. He lives in all such wrong beliefs only.

**Questioner** : Is that not how human being recognise each other? So that is why people call me 'Chandubhai'.

**Dadashri** : There is nothing wrong with that. 'Chandubhai' is just a means of identifying you in worldly interaction ( _vyavahar_ ). Even I say that. If someone asks me, 'What is your name?' I tell them, 'Ambalal'. But 'I' never believe that I am Ambalal; not even in my dreams. Whereas you continue to believe 'I am Chandubhai', not just in your dreams but also in your awakened state! Now that wrong belief, 'I am Chandubhai' continues to give you problems. And because I remain in the awareness of the Self ( _swabhaan_ ) as the Self, and as the Self ( _swa swaroop_ ), constant _samadhi_ (complete freedom from any effect that happens through the mind, body or speech) prevails. The state of _Paramatma_ continues to arise by coming into the Self; and the energy of the _Paramatma_ expresses. Right now, Chandubhai's energy is being expressed. You have been born as a human so Chandubhai's energies are expressed but more energies of a human being have not become expressed. Therefore, currently the energies of an ordinary human being continue to be dissipated.

## Do efforts become fruitful in this era of the time cycle?

**Questioner** : Does one have to make any effort for that?

**Dadashri** : You will not be able to make that effort because you have become _vyagra_ (lack of unity in mind, speech and actions) so you will not be able to. I can show you how, if you become completely _ekagra_ (unity in mind, speech and actions). But, in this era of the time cycle, no one can maintain such unity. How can one do so, in all this mass of interacting humanity and difficult circumstances; in these rough times? Therefore, first I burn your demerit _karma_ (sins) and then I give You the right belief.

**Questioner** : Is _ekagrata_ (concentration practices) necessary for one to progress?

**Dadashri:** There are solutions with concentration practices, which do help. There is nothing in this world that is wrong. Everything is helpful. But if one wants to become completely independent, one must has that much of an instense yearning only, to experience the Self. 'Sugar is sweet' – to experience only that sweetness, and not just by words, to realize the ultimate, one will have to come here (to the Gnani Purush). Otherwise, there are all kinds of other solutions, but they are merely a stepping – a forward step towards the Self.

## Awareness has to be changed, not the activity

**Questioner** : How can one, who is bound by the responsibilities of the worldly life, attain the Self?

**Dadashri** : 'Chandubhai' (the non-Self) and ' _Atma_ ' (the Self) are completely separate and exhibit their individual attributes and phases ( _gunadharma_ ) separately. If one understands this from the Gnani Purush, then the worldly responsibilities can be carried out nicely and 'this' too can work very well. Gnanis too eat and drink, bathe; they do everything just like you, but they have the awareness of 'I am not the doer', whereas in the _agnan_ state (unaware of the Self), one has the awareness that 'I am doing this'. So the difference is solely in the awareness.

## There is never any difficulty in progress towards the Self

**Questioner** : But, despite having an inner desire, why do I perceive an increased difficulty in the work of progress towards the Self?

**Dadashri** : There is never any difficulty in work related to progress towards the Self. It is simply that one does not have the desire within. If there is a desire for it within, there is no difficulty in any work related to spiritual progress. It is because one has more love towards the worldly life; there is attraction there. And that is why one finds difficulty in this. Otherwise to attain the Self, the process is natural, straightforward and easy. How long can it take for the Self to go to its own home?

I had asked a farmer, 'what is the disposition of your bull's temperament when you take him to the farm?' He replied, 'He walks very slowly when we take him to the farm.' I asked, 'And when coming back home?' He replied, 'He understands that he is going home, so he moves hastily.' Similarly, the Self, the moment it realizes that it is going to _moksha_ , moves hastily. It is going home, is it not? Whereas elsewhere, it barely moves.

## Take advantage of the presence of a living Gnani Purush

**Questioner** : How much self-effort ( _purushartha_ ) is required to attain the state beyond the body complex ( _dehatita dasha_ )? And how much of it is the grace ( _krupa_ ) of God?

**Dadashri** : God's grace will help bring all the circumstances together. When God's grace happens then the circumstances will arise which will make one meet a _dehatita purush,_ who can help you attain the same state. One who is _dehatita_ will not be able to make you _dehatita._ Rarely, when such a Gnani Purush is around; only He can help people attain a state beyond the body complex ( _dehatita_ ). Otherwise it is not an easy state to attain.

**Questioner** : What and how much self-effort ( _purushartha_ ) does one have to make in order to attain God's grace for becoming _dehatita_ ?

**Dadashri** : It is because of your effort ( _purushartha_ ); whatever good effort you have put in, that you have met me. Now you should know how to take advantage of this meeting. You can receive whatever you want, but you should know how to take it. People look for what they know in their own language; they look for what they understand. So the beyond the body state that you are talking about is possible to attain here. People do not even know that there is such a thing as _dehatita_. Very few people search of how to attain this state. Generally there are no such people.

## What can the seeking attain without the understanding?

**Questioner** : But the direct experience of the Self is attained only after a lot of penance, is it not?

**Dadashri** : No. Even after a lot of penance, one may be born as a donkey! Dadar station was only half a mile away so why did you walk twenty-two miles? You ruined the road! So go become a donkey! It was only half a mile away but you wandered away and so Dadar never came, you arrived at some other station. One may argue and say, 'I walked twenty-two miles but at least I gained a benefit of twenty-one and half miles!' But the response will be, 'No! You wandered so you will have to pay for the wear and tear of the road!' So he will have to pay the penalty. So this is what it is all about! The Self is not easy to attain and no one has ever found the Self on his own. People will say, 'I am _Brahmaswaroop_ (I am the Self). I am _Brahmaswaroop_!' but you will know, if he is really that if you insult him! He will immediately strike back!

## Obstructive causes in spirituality

**Questioner** : Does race, caste, religious affiliation or sects create obstructions in the attainment of the direct experience of the Self?

**Dadashri** : Nothing touches it. Any person can have the direct experience of the Self.

**Questioner** : No, but surely race, religious sects etc., are a hinderance to the experience, no?

**Dadashri** : They are obstructive as long as there is the ego of being of a specific race or caste. The ego of being of a certain religious sect, the ego of being a certain race creates obstruction. The one who moves away from these obstructions and finds a Gnani Purush; his problems are solved. But otherwise, these people who have opinions about their religious affiliations have a lot of wandering to do yet, because, there is no place for opinions, race, religious sects etc., in the eyes of the Lord.

**Questioner** : Veils, starting from clothes to children, are they all a hinderance to our spirituality?

**Dadashri** : They are not really hindrances. But there is a lot of pressure from them, so they are a hinderance up to a certain limit but beyond that, they are not. So there is a certain limit to that. I am not hindered by anything. Whatever I wear or I have, none of it is a hinderance to me. I have no problem if someone were to snatch away my clothing and pull them off me; and no problem if they were to put them back on me. I have no objection in that. Whatever the circumstance that unfolds, this body acts accordingly and 'I' am the Knower and Seer ( _Gnata_ and _Drashta_ ) of it. This body is my neighbor; only a neighbor!

**Questioner** : So the hinderance is only there as long as there is both the ego ( _ahamkar_ ) and the 'my-ness' ( _mamata_ ) right?

**Dadashri** : Only the ego is the hinderance. My-ness exists only as long as the ego is there. But otherwise if the ego is not there, 'my-ness' is never there. Now, the 'I am' is not ego. The 'I am' is there anyway; one's existence ( _astitva_ ) is there but there is no awareness or 'Who am I?' and because of this, the ego remains in existence.

## Where is the spiritual path in the world?

So, even if some great saint-like person is around whose anger, pride, deceit and greed ( _krodha, maan, maya and lobha_ ) have gone down, we can make do with him. There will be some spirituality ( _adhyatma_ ) there. By some, meaning it will be at a primary level. But otherwise true spirituality is nowhere to be found in this world. It is simply that people keep singing about spirituality; that is all. But there is no spirituality in the world whatsoever. What is spirituality? What is the meaning of spirituality?

The path of spirituality is such that one will not see any other paths related to the material ( _aadhbautik_ ) world in it. That path is completely different altogether. So when does the path to spirituality begin? When one stops seeing all these other things, nevertheless they will still remain stuck in his mind. Their circumstances or their phases will still remain stuck in his mind, but that road will no longer remain visible. So spirituality is called that in which one will no longer see worldly things, but those things will remain stuck in his mind.

That is how it is. In the spiritual path, the first thing is to make a distinction between what is good, what is beneficial and what is detrimental and hurtful. Acquire what is beneficial and keep your distance from that which is detrimental. This distinction has to be made first.

'Chandubhai' is just a name for worldly interaction. You are not just Chandubhai, you are also this lady's husband, this boy's father, this boy's uncle; how many such _lafras_ (that which possesses and captivates a person) are there? All those _lafras_ and spirituality ( _adhyatma_ ) are very far apart. Spirituality arises only when such _lafras_ are not there. Now, these _lafras_ are not easy to get rid of. Will they leave just because you let go of them? Even if you come here, they will come to get you. Will the _lafras_ leave you alone?

So, 'I am Chandubhai' is fine as far as worldly interactions are concerned, but in reality that is not so. So do we not need to know who we are in reality? The 'real' thing will go with us, while the worldly interactions ( _vyavahar_ ) will be left behind. Will your name and everything else not get left behind? 'You' are _anami_ – without a name.

Now, one is considered to have come into spirituality when he attains vision of the Self ( _samyak_ _darshan_ ). Until then he is not in spirituality at all, no matter how many books he reads. When vision of the Self is attained, when the vision of 'as it is' is attained, then one comes into spirituality. Therefore, the right belief is established when the wrong belief is fractured.

**Questioner** : What should one do to attain the right belief? Should one keep saying, 'I am not this body, I am not this body', to attain that?

**Dadashri:** No; that will not get you anywhere! If you do that, you will become mad and people too will come and ask you, 'if you are not the body then who are you?' You are not to do that. Many people do that and have become mad.

**Questioner:** So then do I say, 'I am one _Atma_ '?

**Dadashri** : No, you cannot say that either. If a sleepy person tells you 'wait for me a while. I want to go to the movies with you too', then how long are you going to wait for him? If after half an hour or an hour, he does not show up, would you not conclude that he was talking in his sleep? In the same token, if one keeps saying 'I am Self, I am Self' in his sleep, what is the use?

**Questioner** : One should have the experience of 'I am the Self', right?

**Dadashri** : Yes, the experience will happen. The Gnani Purush will help you experience it; that is when it happens.

**Questioner** : But how can I experience it on my own?

**Dadashri:** If I show you that method, the method is easy but you will not be able to do it. Presently, people's _manobud_ (energy of mind) is broken.

Nevertheless, I will show you one method. If your pocket gets picked, if someone steals five thousand rupees from you, then what does God's justice tell you? It tells you, 'dear man, this is the result of your own _karma_. That is why you encountered a pickpocket'. Do you understand? It is the fruit of your very own _karma_. The other person is just a _nimit_ (instrumental in the process). But what do people do instead? They attack the _nimit_. One should never attack the _nimit_. Instead, you have to bless him because he liberated you from your _karma_. Will you able to do that? If you understand just this much, it is more than enough. You should be thankful to the _nimit_ , that he freed you from your _karma_. Or if someone insults you, at that time you should have the awareness that 'this is as a result of my own _karma_ and the other person is just a _nimit_ in this'. If this much knowledge prevails within, go with the assurance that you will be able to attain the Self. But this knowledge does not prevail due to the current time cycle of _dushamkaad_ (the time cycle wherein there is no unity of between the mind, speech and action). And besides, people's mind does not remain that strong either. It will not, in the present day and age, will it? The mind has become fractured. That is why, once we give you the awareness; that awareness will never go away.

## The Self with exact awareness arises only upon destruction of sins

Now, when will the awareness come? It will come when all your demerit _karma_ (sins) have been destroyed. Lord Krishna has said that the Gnani Purush destroys all your demerit _karma_ and then you will have constant awareness of the Self. And to remain constantly aware is the ultimate state. So, the main thing one needs is the awareness. Your awareness is less?

**Questioner** : Yes, Dada. So then I have to attain the constant experience of the Self.

**Dadashri** : Yes, constant, continuous, You do not forget it even at night. Then know that 'You' have attained something. Otherwise, anything else is of no use to you, is it? For endless lives one has acquired the _atma_ that is mixed (not the Self). _Bhel_ mixture (Indian snack) is twelve rupees a kilo and so is this mixed up _atma_! In the same token, when people elsewhere talk about the _Atma_ , they are talking about a twelve-rupee-per-kilo- _atma_ also! No one ever tells you, 'Come, I will give you the real _Atma_ '.

Otherwise they will give you a name to recite ( _samaran, simiran_ ) all the time. Hey you! You have to get attached ( _raag_ ) to it to recite it. And where there is attachment, there is the entire worldly life there. And where there is worldly life, there is recitation. There should be no reciting whatsoever. Recitation helps keep _ekagrata_ concentration somewhat, but it is a solution of last resort. That which remains constantly in awareness without any effort is the Self. All others are mixed up self ( _atma_ ).

## Zero has no value without the 'One'

**Questioner** : Is _Atmagnan_ to know the Self?

**Dadashri** : Yes, you just have to know the Self, nothing else.

**Questioner** : Now, in order to know something, one has to delve deep into it. So do I have to go deep within my self in order to know the Self?

**Dadashri** : People do just that on their own, do they not? Those who created the _Vedanta_ \- that is exactly what they did. In the end, they created the four _Vedas_ and their conclusion was "This is not That. This is not That!" The Self cannot be known through the _Vedas_.

**Questioner** : If the Self cannot be known, then what is it like?

**Dadashri** : It cannot be known or one cannot even talked about it. There is great liability in talking about it. The four _Vedas_ themselves have said no to it. It is not such that it can be described through speech. It cannot be expressed.

**Questioner** : So then how can one experience the Self?

**Dadashri** : What do you have the experience of right now?

**Questioner** : Right now I am trying to attain the ' _shoonyavstha'_ (state of non-existence, zero).

**Dadashri** : What is ' _shoonya'_?

**Questioner** : _Shoonya_ means that there is no _sankalp_ and _vikalp_ (thoughts and agitation of thoughts here).

**Dadashri** : What happens if we have two engines running full speed towards each other? What kind of a state will they be in?

**Questioner** : There will be a huge accident.

**Dadashri** : They will collide in such a way, that even the engines will end up standing upright. Similarly when people do _dhyan_ (concentration here) and other such things on the Self; the state of thoughtlessness (zero state) is like that. People have set out to look for the _shoonyavastha_ , without even understanding what it is. All 'zeros' ( _shoonya_ ), have no value without the number 'one'. A zero has worth only if there is a number one with it. So then how are you trying to attain the _shoonyavastha_?

**Questioner** : I sit in silence and then try to stop any _sankalp_ (desires) and _vikalp_ (agitation) that arise.

**Dadasshri** : And yet _sankalp_ and _vikalp_ do continue to happen, do they not? Yes, and even though it is not your wish, who does the _sankalp_ and _vikalp_? Someone very confusing has entered within, right?

**Questioner** : That is the _prakruti_.

**Dadashri** : Are you in the _prakruti_ (non-Self) or are you in the _purush_ (the Self), you tell me?

**Questioner** : _Purush._

**Dadashri** : Who made you into the ' _Purush'_?

**Questioner** : That I do not know.

**Dadashri** : If someone tells you, 'Chandubhai ruined this', will that affect you?

**Questioner** : If I did ruin it, I would have to admit it.

**Dadashri** : But if you have not ruined anything and someone blames you by saying, 'Chandubhai ruined this', will that affect you?

**Questioner** : They can keep saying that.

**Dadashri** : Is that so? You do not get affected in the name of Chandubhai?

**Questioner** : No.

**Dadashri** : And if someone steals five thousand from your pocket, do you still remain unaffected?

**Questioner** : It will affect me; that is the means of my livelihood.

**Dadashri** : Now where does your ' _shoonya_ ' go, at that time? Still, there is nothing wrong with it if you keep peace in this way. But that is not the path of _shoonya_. For _shoonya_ , you have to attain the Self ( _Atma_ ); you have to know the Self. After knowing the Self, the state of _shoonya_ will arrive.

## Atma is way beyond the observer of thoughts

**Questioner** : So then what is the best way to attain the experience of the Self?

**Dadashri** : Do you have any other way ( _sadhan_ ) of attaining that? You are trying to become the Self ( _sadhya_ ), but what is the other way you have?

**Questioner** : I observe the 'Self' ( _atmanirikshan_ ) for half an hour.

**Dadashri** : Are you observing the Self, after knowing it or are you doing it without knowing the Self?

**Questioner** : If I know the Self, then what else is left?

**Dadashri** : So then what 'observation of the Self', are you doing?

**Questioner** : Of whatever thoughts, that arise.

**Dadashri** : O ho ho! Of the thought! Thoughts arise in the mind and the mind itself is lifeless ( _jada_ ), it is completely physical. So you study the thoughts of the mind. This study that you do is being done by the 'egosim'. And the Self is beyond the ego.

A wrong and entangled state of the experience

**Questioner** : I am telling you of the experience of the _Atma_ that I am having. The joy I feel within is like the water that gushes from the water fountains.

**Dadashri** : Yes, just upon hearing about the Self, some people get the experience of water fountains; some see light and other such things.

**Questioner** : It is not a matter of flowing fountains; but there is nothing but joy within.

**Dadashri** : Yes, but they are a kind of imagination that arises within. Now if by just thinking about it, such joy arises then imagine what kind of joy will arise when you reach there?

A man had gone to a saint who was very straightforward and clean at heart. The man then came to me and told me, 'I already have the experience'. I asked him, 'experience of what?' and he replied, 'I already have the experience of the Self ( _Atma_ )'. I told him 'No one has seen even the shadow of the Self!' It is fine if one is not able to reach the Self, but just as the shadow follows man wherever he goes and we can put our foot on that shadow, in the same way even if someone is able to reach the shadow of the Self, he can become _samkit_ (with vision of the Self). And here he has not even reached the shadow of the Self.

Many people in India claim that they have attained the experience. Now, one would be a God if he had the experience, he would be considered Lord Krishna. The experience they talk about is nothing but hogwash and nothing of the sort has been attained.

I asked that man, 'What do you consider an experience?' So he tells me, 'That I don't know. But I do feel that the pleasure that I experience is from the Self.' So I told him, 'That cannot be from the Self, when you have not attained or heard of the Self. Hey! You haven't even seen its shadow yet. This is nothing but the pleasure of the mind. When the right circumstances come together, pleasure of the mind arises.' So then he tells me, 'when pleasure arises, I feel that it is coming from the Self; the _Atma_ ' 'Hey! It cannot be from the Self, it is of the mind. Once you experience the pleasure (bliss _anand_ ) from the Self, it will never leave you.' So then he tells me, 'Now I know the truth. But all our _gurus_ tell us that this is the pleasure from the Self. This verily is the experience of the Self, the _Atma_ ' I told him, 'No, with this experience, from having two legs, you will attain four legs (go into animal life form)'. Such wrong things they teach the poor people! To suffer pleasures of the mind, in the ignorant state, is the cause for a life in the lower life form ( _adhogati_ ). Actually, one should suffer only the bliss of Gnan.

Therefore, suffering mental pleasure out of ignorance (of the Self) is a cause for a life in the lower lifeform. People of the world will remain constantly in mental pleasure. They will experience some external problems, but then they will find a way for mental pleasure from somewhere and they carry on that way.

## That which is believed will not do, You will have to know it

All we have to see is whether the disease of the worldly life has gone down or not. You have multiple doctors and if your disease does not get better; then is is your own mistake.

**Questioner** : It has gone down.

**Dadashri** : What has gone down?

**Questioner** : If the disease of the mind goes down, then everything goes down. If everything worldly is renounced through the mind, then everything is accomplished.

**Dadashri** : Yes, but what did you acquire ( _grahan_ )? If everything is renounced ( _tyaga_ ), it means you have become empty. Then nothing remains with you, right? You then become poor and so poverty will set in.

**Questioner** : You are asking about the worldly life ( _sansar_ ) are you not? As far as the worldly life is concerned, renunciation ( _tyaga_ ) is necessary, right? And that which needs to be acquired, I do that anyway, no?

**Dadashri** : Acquistion ( _grahan_ ) in itself is a very difficult thing, but renouncing is possible to do.

**Questioner** : Even renouncing is not possible. How can one renounce? Superficial renouncing is different and inner renuncaition is different. Renunciation has to be from within, right?

**Dadashri** : Inner renunciation is needed, then it is all possible. There are many who do that. We need to look at what has been acquired. When renouncing happens, it creates a vaccum, so what should we put there instead?

**Questioner** : There, there is only the ' _sarva khalvidam brahma_ (all this truly is the absolute Self). What else can there be?

**Dadashri** : But what is _Brahma_?

**Questioner** : _Brahma_ means the Self the _Atma_.

**Dadashri** : How does one become _Brahma_? _Brahma_ does not manifest, does it? When does _Brahma_ manifest? It will happen when anger-pride-deceit-greed and 'my-ness' go away, otherwise it will not. Until then _dehadhyas_ ('I am this body') will not go away; will it?

**Questioner** : You able to see the shortcomings I have currently. How can I see my own shortcomings?

**Dadashri** : No, why would 'we' look at your shortcomings? You should be able to see your own shortcomings, yourself. You should be able to see that, ' I have some greed, or I have some anger.' You do not have anger-pride-deceit or greed, do you? What if someone were to instigate you?

It is like this, if some man is sitting at Chicago railway station and he tells me that he wanted to to go to New York City railway station that he has reached his destination, I would tell him, 'dear man, do not sit here. You still have to go a long way. I would tell him to 'get on the train and remain seated'. So what is my job? My job is to make people get up from wherever they are sitting and put them on the train. This is my job. You get nowhere in simply believing in the mind that you have reached and attained the destination.

**Questioner** : I feel like I want to be free from the worldly life ( _nivrut_ ), so please help me become steadfast on that path. Except for this, I do not want anything else.

**Dadashri** : That is fine; 'we' will do that for you. What you are saying is correct. It is good only if the worldly disease goes away, but it is not easy to get rid of it. It is not something that will go away. As the disease goes away in one area, it will crop up in another.

**Questioner** : All that happens in life.

**Dadashri** : Yes, it will carry on that way; that is exactly what I am saying. So it is not easy to become detached from the name and the 'my-ness' ( _mamata_ ). When you put something away somewhere, you will continue to remember it. You remember it do you not? What is the reason for the remembering? Is there a string attached to it? No there are no strings. You remember it without any strings; it remains in your awareness. 'I have put that thing over there and the other thing over here'.

**Questioner** : But one is bound to remember if he puts it some place, but there is nothing to remember if he does not put anything away in the first place.

**Dadashri** : No; that is not what I am telling you. These are straightforward things that I am telling you. We cannot say anything to anyone specifically. But one should look into all these things. If one is sitting at Chicago station thinking he has arrived at the final station New York City, then that is the end of it! Is he likely to get anywhere if he simply believes so?

**Questioner** : But one has to decide first where he wants to go, right?

**Dadashri** : Every one knows that he wants liberation; they all know that they want _moksha_. They only know it as a word. People know that they want to become the Self, but they will not know where they are sitting, will they? So I have to state the facts very clearly, don't I? Should they not know where they are sitting? That is why I have to speak the facts. If I don't tell him the truth, he will not get rid of his baggage, will he?

So we must bring about an end to this. A person is not able to know on his own, which 'station' he is sitting at, until the Gnani Purush tells him, 'dear fellow, you still have many stations to cross. Do not remain seated here, come go sit down in any one of the trains!'

**Questioner** : But Dada, what happens here is that many people tell us to get on the train. The problem is that he gets on that train but then gets off again. This is the problem that arises.

**Dadashri** : That is the very business people have started. One gets on the train and he gets off, he gets on and then he gets off.

## Without a Gnani Purush, even endless efforts are futile

In order to cure the worldly disease, what the worldly people do is that they pick off or cut out the leaves from the tree, thinking it will dry up. Then when the leaves grow back again after a month of two, they feel regret. Many people cut off the leaves. Many cut off large branches; they get deceived, nothing works. Everything sprouts back again. Then many people cut off the trunk but even then it sprouts again. So many people have become weary in trying to look for a solution to the disease of the worldy life. And that is why the Lord said, 'In the whole world, on a very rare occasion there is a presence of a living Gnani Purush. Once in a while if a Gnani is around, our work can be done'. Otherwise, all the shopkeepers here will tell you, 'our shop is very good. Our shop has the best quality of goods. Only our shop has the highest quality.' And our poor people are naïve; they are naïve but also greedy and so they become trapped. Otherwise if they did not have the weakness of greed, then they would be able to look for the right thing. The one, who cares nothing for pride, bodily importanc or has no weakness of greed of any kind except for the greed to look for the Self and only the Self, will be able to find it.

If only the people of the world were to keep peaceful calmness with their mind, speech and body and even if through their ego, they do not do anger, pride, deceit and greed, then their knowledge would really increase. This is because they are able to gain the experience of remaining without _kashayas_ (anger, pride, deceit and greed) for one day, whereas generally one is not able to remain free from _kashayas_ even for an hour. Why does one not gain the experience? Because his _chit_ is absorbed in only anger, pride, deceit and greed. So how is he to gain the experience? In order to attain the experience, one will need to know _chetan_ (the Self).

## When can one know the Chetan in this world?

**Questioner** : How do you define _chetan_?

**Dadashri** : God (the Self, _Atma_ ). God verily is _chetan_. There can be only one meaning. There can never be two meanings. It is a different thing if one understands it some other way. But there is actually just one, is there not? It will never do if one believes copper to be gold. You will realize that when you go to sell it in the market.

**Questioner** : How should one see _chetan_? What is the method to see it?

**Dadashri** : One needs such a vision; he needs such knowledge.

**Questioner** : Where can one attain that?

**Dadashri** : If there is a Gnani Purush around who has come to give the gift of liberation ( _moksha_ ), you can attain such a vision from Him. And very rarely is He to be found; may be once in thousands of years.

**Questioner** : So then the experience that others have, is it right or wrong?

**Dadashri** : Experience? That experience is like one where a person believes copper to be gold. You attain nothing from that, not even in thousands of years.

**Questioner** : Is there not anyone in this world with such an experience?

**Dadashri** : There is never any such individual. The one who attains such an experience: he becomes the _Paramatma_ (absolute Self). Is there such a _Paramatma_ around here?

**Questioner** : If by chance there is, we would not be able to recognize him, will we?

**Dadashri** : No, you will immediately recognize him. If he speaks just two words, you will recognize him. He will have liberated and thus made completely calm five of his followers; who do not have any divisiveness due to difference in opinions ( _matabheda_ ).

The Self is not easily known (experienced). Human beings do not have any tools to know _Chetan._

**Questioner** : So should a person not make an attempt to know it?

**Dadashri** : The 'one' making the attempt (the self) has no realm and authority to do so. Here you simply believe that 'Of course, I am running everything. I go to sleep and I wake up.' Wherever you feel that you have made an effort; it is all under the control of some other forces ( _parsatta_ ) and that you believe as being under your control.

_Chetan_ can be known only through the divine vision ( _divyachakshu_ ) which can be attained through the grace of the Gnani Purush.

Right now you have a deluded vision ( _mithya darshan_ ). Deluded vision ( _mithya_ _darshan_ ) shows only the destructible ( _vinashi_ ) things, not the indestructible ( _avinashi_ ) things. And therefore you can never see the _Chetan_. Do you understand that?

**Questioner** : Is _atma-anubhava_ (experience of the Self) the same as the _samyak darshan_ (vision of the Self)?

**Dadashri** : _Kashayas_ (anger, pride, deceit and greed) calm down.

It is called _samyak darshan_ (vision of the Self), when there is total absence of _kashayas_. And for the duration of forty-eight minutes, One can see (experience) bliss ( _anand_ ).

_Kashayas_ will calm down and that also, for forty-eight minutes – not even for forty-nine minutes.

**Questioner** : What is the calming of _kashayas_ dependent upon?

**Dadashri** : It depends upon the surrounding circumstances. And it is not that there is just one cause of that. It can be any other reason; one may have seen something that will cause his _kashayas_ to calm down.

## As the belief of 'I am this body' dispels, the experience of the Self is attained

**Questioner** : How can a person tell if he has attained the vision of the Self ( _Atmadarshan_ )?

**Dadashri** : Are you able to tell what is _dehadhyas_ ('I am this body')? Do you not have the awareness of 'I am Chandubhai'? or the awareness of 'I am this woman's husband'? When you see your son, you are immediately become aware that, 'I am his father'; do you forget that you are his father?

**Questioner** : No.

**Dadashri** : Because _dehadhyas_ is there, all this presents. So when You have the vision of the Self ( _Atmadarshan_ ), then all that (Gnan) will present. In _agnan_ (ignorance of the Self), all this arises and in Gnan (knowledge of the Self), all that arises.

The One who is free of _dehadhyas_ , will have the experience of the Self. In India if you were to look for someone without _dehadhyas_ with a lamp, you will not find such a One. If you take a lamp and search for him in the caves, you will not find such a One. You will especially not find such a One in the caves. Those that are in the caves are doing penance ( _tapa_ ). Always, Knowledge (Gnan) is never to be found in the caves.

So, if one's _dehadhyas_ is gone, know that there is experience of the Self there. Otherwise there is no experience. Now, what is gone when the _dehadhyas_ is gone? The ego ( _ahamkar_ ) and 'my-ness' ( _mamata_ ) are gone. But they are only partially gone, not completely gone. At times you may find someone whose ego has decreased, but 'my-ness' has not gone away in anyone.

And when the dinner is being served, if you go there and look, then it does not matter whether one is a _maharaj_ (spiritual master) or anyone else; they will protect their plate! There is no such thing as 'I will give my plate to someone else' with them. How can you call such people free of _dehadhyas_? How can such people rise above _dehadhyas_?

## How wonderful is the Knowledge of the Self!

**Questioner** : When _Atmagnan_ (Self-realization) happens, what changes happen within the body that tell us that _Atmagnan_ has happened?

**Dadashri** : After attaining Self-realization, even if someone insults you, it will not reach within and in the mind, you will feel that 'he is just a _nimit_ (someone instrumental in the process of unfolding _karma_ effects); how can that poor man be at fault in this?' Even the one who insults you will appear as a _nimit_ to you. Even a person who picks your pocket will appear as a _nimit_.

To speak the wrong way is _agnan_ (ignorance) and to speak the right way is Gnan (Knowledge that liberates). An _Atmagnani_ (one with Knowledge of the Self) will always speak the right, whereas an _agnani_ will speak only the wrong (that which leads to bondage); he will blame only the pickpocket and attack the _nimit_.

**Questioner** : So, one has to become free from pride ( _nirabhimani_ ) and not blame anyone; then we can understand that he has _Atmagnan_ , is that right?

**Dadashri** : Yes, when one becomes free from pride and extra pride _nirabhimani_ and sees no faults in anyone and takes upon himself the pains of other people, then you can say that he has become free. Worldly pains do not affect an _Atmagnani_.

After attaining _Atmagnan_ , if a person's fever goes up by five degrees, even then the Self will remain separate. When fever arises, the Self remains separate; such a person will continue to have the experience of separation for days.

One man who had paralysis said to me, 'These people have come to visit me, but 'I' am 'seeing' the one who has the stroke and is paralysed, his leg has this problem, his arm has this problem. Even 'I' am seeing all that.' So, 'He' is the seer and so are all the others who have come there. Such is the effect of Gnan. This effect is there even when one is paralyzed. And if a person does not have Gnan, he will complain 'I am paralysed. I have a fever', this then is a sign of the one who dies.

Now when a person says, 'This happened to 'me', then who will do the repairing? And when the 'I' becomes free from this, the repairing (healing) will happen on it own. It is a law of nature that the repairing takes place immediately.

So when is one considered to have attained the Self? I will give you the signs of it. After attaining the Self, if there is no effect within ( _samadhi_ ) even if the body is hurting, the head is hurting. There is no effect even if someone is cursing you, and when there is pain of any kind. This cannot be found in the present day and age and yet it has happened!

After Self-realization, all experiences such as 'this is my son', 'this is my uncle' 'I did this' 'I did that' etc, will all go away. Everything that you experience currently will all go away.

You will have the experience of the _Paramatma_ , that 'I am _Paramatma_ ' (the absolute Self). There will be no worries or pains ( _dukha_ ) then. None of the current experiences will be there. There is no worry ( _chinta_ ), there is no _upadhi_ (externally-induced problems and resultant suffering), there is no _vyadhi_ (physical suffering) or no _aadhi_ (mental suffering); there is nothing of the sort. Do you understand this? What is not there? Despite having all that you currently have, you will not have any pain or external suffering!

## How great is the Knower

**Dadashri** : Do you experience _dehadhyas_ ('I am this body') now?

**Questioner** : Right now, there is oneness with the body.

**Dadashri** : Yes, that is considered ' _dehadhyas'_ and when that goes away, You are free.

**Questioner** : You asked him if he experiences _dehadhyas_ and he replied that there is oneness with the body. How can one say that there is definitely oneness with the body ( _tanmayakar_ )?

**Dadashri** : Because the 'main Self' ( _muda Atma_ ) is separate, that is why He 'Knows'. The main Self is separate from all this. What you believe as ' _atma_ ' is a 'mechanical _atma_ '. Many call it as ' _vyavahar atma_ '. And we have called it as ' _pratishthit_ _atma'_. And it is this _atma_ that you are identified with when you say 'I am this'. This entity that eats, drinks and sleeps; that is the entity 'you' believe you are. Even when you say, 'I fell sleep', you are the worldly interacting _atma._ And that verily is called the _atma_ , but it is the _vyavahar atma_ or worldly interacting self. The main Self does not get involved in worldly interactions. The main Self continues to Know all this, and because it 'Knows', you are able to tell 'within' that 'I am truly under the influence of _dehadhyas_ and I feel the results of having become engrossed with the body-mind complex ( _tanmayakar parinaam_ )'. So who is the entity that 'knows' this? The Knower ( _jaannaar_ ) 'knows' it. The 'sufferer' ( _bogavanaar_ ) suffered the effect of oneness ( _tanmayakar_ ) with the body. So how astute that 'Knower' must be! If just once you get to know the 'Knower'; that is it! If just once you become the 'Knower' Your work is done!

## The invisible One realizes the invisible One

**Questioner** : How can one get direct realization ( _sakshatkaar_ ) of the Self when it is invisible ( _arupi_ )?

**Dadashri** : It is like this; the One that attains the direct realization is also the invisible One. The one that 'does' the direct realization is not visible ( _rupi_ ). So the two natural states ( _swabhav_ ) merge.

**Questioner** : What happens when the direct realization ( _sakshatkaar_ ) happens?

**Dadashri** : The awareness ( _jagruti_ ) increases tremendously. Krupadudev (Gnani Purush Srimad Rajchandra 1867-1901) has said:

' _Vartey nija swabhaavnu; anubhav-laksha-pratita,_

When the experience-awareness-conviction that I am the Self remains

Vruti vahey nijabhaavma, parmarthey samkit'

The tendencies come home to the Self and this is the eternal Vision'

Therefore, when direct realization of the Self happens; all the tendencies ( _vrutis_ ) return to the Self. Even if they do wander off outside, they will immediately return. Whereas these tendencies are such that even if you call them back, they will not come and many are such that they remain always entrenched outside the home.

## Experience is separate; Self-realization is separate

**Questioner** : **'** _Atmanubhav_ and ' _Atmasakshatkar_ ', what is the difference between the two words?

**Dadashri** : _Sakshatkar_ (realization) is a different thing and _anubhav_ (experience) is when you proceed ahead from there.

**Questioner** : So what do people call ' _sakshatkar'_?

**Dadashri** : This Gnan we give You is called ' _sakshatkar'_ (direct realization).

**Questioner** : So is _sakshatkar_ lower than _pratiti_ (conviction)?

**Dadashri** : _Pratiti_ sets in when one has the _sakshatkar_ (realization of 'I am pure soul'). Otherwise, his _pratiti_ of 'I am Chandubhai' will not go away, will it?

## The experience of the Self is from the One with that experience

**Questioner** : At which _goonthanu_ (stage of spiritual progress) does one gain the experience of the Self?

**Dadashri** : It can happen at the fourth, fifth or the sixth spiritual level ( _goonthanu_ ).

**Questioner** : Is it possible for a person to attain the experience of the Self in this current era of the time cycle?

**Dadashri** : The experience of the Self is possible in this time cycle and almost ten to twelve thousand people have attained it! Everyone sitting here; all of them have the experience. It is necessary to find the One with that experience ( _anubhavi Purush,_ Gnani Purush), only then can you attain the experience yourself but otherwise, it is not possible. Not even in a hundred thousand lifetimes will it be possible. It is not an easy thing. So until you find an _anubhavi Purush_ , you cannot get your work done.

## If it does not last, then it is not the experience of the Self

**Questioner** : How long will the experience of the Self last?

**Dadashri** : It will last forever. Not just for a minute or two. There are all these other things in the world that last for a minute or two anyway, no? All these things we eat and drink, last for as long as they remain on the tongue, then they are gone. Does that experience remain? If you eat a dessert, for how long will that experience last? And what about perfume? The fragrance will last for eight to ten hours, whereas the Self, when experienced just once, will last forever. The experience must last forever. Otherwise there is no point, is there? Then all such talks are meaningless.

## Conduct follows the experience

**Questioner** : What is the difference between attaining the Self in _vartan_ (Conduct) and the _anubhav_ (experience) of the Self?

**Dadashri** : When the Self comes in Conduct ( _charitra_ ), it is considered to have come in _vartan._

**Questioner** : And experience?

**Dadashri** : Experience is something that has already happenedprior to this.

**Questioner** : Experience is followed by conduct, is it not?

**Dadashri** : Yes. One has had the experience, which then manifests in Conduct.

## The ego attains the pure Self

**Questioner** : Who makes the decision to attain the pure Self? Is it done by the _Atma_?

**Dadashri** : The Self is verily pure. The one who has the itch, scratches. Who else will scratch? The one who has the itch is scratching. All this is the doing of the ego. The 'I am this' is the doer. Who is doing the thinking of 'I want to attain the pure Self'? The ego is doing it.

The ego is tired of dealing with the business of the worldly life and so it is looking to do business on this side now. And in so doing, gradually it (the ego) will end up losing its own existence. The ego will end up becoming the main Self.

## As long as there is ignorance, the ego exists

**Questioner** : Movement towards the Self will not happen until one starts thinking about the Self, will it?

**Dadashri** : Yes, it can never, can it?

**Questioner** : So initially, there will be some ego involved in the thinking process of 'I will do it this way or that way', right?

**Dadashri** : Yes, the ego will remain right till the end. It will remain as long as there is the presence of ignorance ( _agnan_ ).

## Experience of the Self is completely different from all other experiences

**Questioner** : On the one side we say that there is nothing than the Self ( _Atma_ ), and on the other side we use the word like ' _atmanubhav_ ' (experience of the Self), and that gives rise to a conflict. If there is nothing besides the Self, then something like experience is also the insertion of thoughts or insertion of the mind or it is simply interference. Is this correct?

**Dadashri** : No, nothing of the sort.

**Questioner** : But I am asking because we have to use the word ' _atmanubhav_ '.

**Dadashri** : The reason that word has to be used is because until you attain the Self, you need 'stairs' to reach there. The place, at which you are currently standing, requires that 'we' show you the steps in order to help you understand. And what do 'we' mean by ' _atmanubhava_ '? Right now you have _dehadhyas_ ('I am this body'), so what do you currently experience? You are experiencing, 'I am this body, I am this name; I am this mind too.' And by _atmanubhav_ , 'we' are trying to tell you that as compared to the experience of _dehadhyas_ , this experience is completely different ( _nyaro_ ). So once that experience is attained, then it can be said that you have attained the Self. Otherwise if you are not experiencing that, then how can you attain the Self? Therefore 'we' have to use the word 'experience ( _anubhav_ )' inbetween, so that 'he' (the one with ignorance) can understand. This is because 'we' cannot directly use the word 'Self'. As compared to the current experience of ' _dehadhyas_ ' that you have right now, when you attain a very new kind of experience of the 'Self', then you will feel in the mind that 'as compared to that other experience, this experience is very different'; and 'You' (the awakened One) will have the conviction ( _pratiti_ ) that it is the experience of the Self ( _atmanubhav_ ). Then only will you have the conviction, otherwise not even the conviction will set in.

**Questioner** : We experience thoughts and feelings, but should this experience of the Self ( _atmanubhav_ ), be a state beyond all these other experiences?

**Dadashri** : It is a state beyond all other experiences for sure. This experience is on this side so that experience is of the other side. There is not a fraction of this in that, and not even a fraction of that in this. So the experience of the Self always remains distinctly different ( _nyaro_ ) for sure. It is completely separate ( _judo_ ) for sure; there is no change in that. Nevertheless, 'the experience must come first' - this is said so, solely so that he finds a cause or basis for conviction ( _pratiti_ ), and he becomes convinced that there is such a thing as the 'Self' and that it is quite different from all that. Until then, one cannot even accept the existence ( _astitva_ ) of it. Therefore one must have the experience!

## Where there is complete 'fitting' of the facts

Whatever I am telling you, must 'fit' very exactly in your understanding ( _geda besi_ ) with you, so that you will have full understanding of what I am telling you. And when it reaches "to the point", that is what I call 'fit' ( _geda besi_ ). Do people not say, 'I still don't get it (it does not fit)'?

So we can say that it 'fits' ( _geda_ _besi_ ), when you understand it exactly as it is, what I am trying to explain to you. Now, my 'view point' is different and your 'view point' is different and so it takes time for it to 'fit'. But the work can be accomplished only if it 'fits'.

**Questioner** : So you use the words, the message should reach.

**Dadashri** : Yes, the talk should reach you. That is why 'we' say, 'He is not getting what I am telling him.' The talk will 'fit' him when his level comes up a little and my level comes down a little. Otherwise nothing will be accomplished if I keep talking from a higher level. So inorder for the facts to 'fit', 'levels' should be reached.

Therefore nothing can be attained without 'fitting'. Here, with everyone it 'fits'. Once it 'fits', everything moves forward.

## Knowledge of the Self from the Gnani

**Questioner** : How can one attain _Atmagnan_ (knowledge of the Self)?

**Dadashri** : _Atmagnan_ can be attained from an _Atmagnani_. It can be attained only upon a direct meeting ( _pratyaksha_ ) with the _Atmagnani_.

**Questioner** : Yes, but how can we recognize a real Gnani?

**Dadashri** : If you instigate him or harass him and no ego ( _ahamkar_ ) arises, or no my-ness ( _mamata_ ) arises; then he is a true Gnani.

Or ask the Gnani Purush 'have you attained _moksha_?' That is what you have to ask him. Then you will know. When you go out to buy vegetables, if you cannot tell whether the vegetables are fresh or two or three days old, then you have to ask the seller, 'Sir, tell me whether these vegetables are fresh or stale.' Similarly, you have to request the Gnani Purush, 'I will stay here with you if you have attained _moksha_ , otherwise I am leaving and I will look for another 'shop'. I would rather change the shop, instead of sitting in a shop and waste my whole life away.' What is wrong in asking that?

But the easier way is to come to attend the Gnani Purush's _satsangs_ (Question and answer sessions with Gnani Purush). Or insult him once and you will immediately be able to tell whether he is for real or a fake. When you tap a rupee coin like this, are you not 'insulting' (testing) the coin? Can you not tell right away whether that rupee is to be thrown away or worth keeping? And if it is worthless, then you can discard it.

**Questioner** : Do I bind _karma_ by testing like that?

**Dadashri** : No. 'We' protect the one that does the testing. Because how else would you do the testing? With 'us', if you want to test 'us', then 'we' will give you 'our' protection. 'We' will not let you fall and you will succeed in your testing.

**Questioner** : You will protect us, but what if we go to test someone else?

**Dadashri** : Do not even try that anywhere else and if you do that, then keep some cash in your pocket. After testing him, massage his feet and tell him, 'Sir, I am crazy', and somehow pacify him. He will become happy if you give him a gift and massage his feet; because, it does not take long to make person who is with ego, happy. He will get happy even if you just 'tickle' (flatter) him a little.

**Questioner** : Without doing all these 'testing', how else can an average person know?

**Dadashri** : His speech is _syadvaad_ (speech that does not hurt the ego of any living being); it does no hurt, in the slightest, any religion, it is not hurtful to anyone. And His speech, conduct and humility will conquer people's mind.

'This is the cash bank of divine solution'. It is always 'cash' (gives instant results), and never 'on credit' (pending). Whatever you want, you will receive as 'cash' here.

If he gives you instant _Atmagnan_ (Knowledge of the Self), then he is a real Gnani Purush. Where it is 'on credit' (the experience is yet pending), there is no ' _pratyaksha_ ' (manifest) Gnani there. If he gives you 'cash', then there is no need to test him anymore. Do you have to test the bank that gives you cash? You have to ask around and test the bank that tells you that you will receive the money in six months. What are you going to test for, when the bank gives you the cash immediately?

**Questioner** : How would one know whether it is 'cash' or not?

**Dadashri** : You will know it right away. If you cannot, then there is no Self there at all. You will definitely know it if there is Self in the body. However, if you want to be awkward then you can. One is free to do so, is he not? Or, once having received it from the Gnani, you are free to throw it away if you want to do so. No one will say 'no' to you. But those who understand 'cash' will never throw it away will they?

## Conviction of attaining the Self...

**Questioner** : How will I have the conviction ( _pratiti_ ) that I have attained the Self ( _vastu_ )?

**Dadashri** : Of course the convinction of the Self will happen for You for sure. You will have the conviction of what 'You' are. Currently, the illusion that you have about who you are will go away. The existance of the illusion you have will go away. 'I am Chandubhai' is the illusion. You are really the Self ( _Atma_ ), and that is the Self you become, and thus the illusion will be no more. Then nothing remains for You to question, does it? 'Chandubhai' goes back to his home. This 'Chandubhai' is the one that has doubts; he goes away. 'I am Chandubhai' is the wrong belief.

## Bound through the belief...

Now, even if a person were to be born a million times over; he would not attain the right belief. How can the wrong belief be replaced with the right one, when not a single wrong belief leaves? So, in this world not a single wrong belief of a person leaves. And consequently the right belief does not happen. For so many lives, one has been reading Lord Mahavir's scriptures but not a single wrong belief dispels and people get nowhere. People find peace within when they read the scriptures but their belief does not change. The Gnani Purush, who is the giver of moksha, is the only One who can change the wrong belief.

**Questioner** : One has to go to a Gnani Purush to attain _moksha_.

**Dadashri** : And that Gnani Purush should be the giver of the gift of _moksha_ ( _mokshadata_ _Purush_ ). Who gives the gift of _moksha_? It is the One who is constantly in _moksha_ , Himself. When you are in the worng belief to begin with, then no matter what you do, whether you read the scriptures or other such things, it will only reinforce the wrong belief; the wrong belief continues to get nurtured.

And in the worldly life, from the moment one is born, people give him the gift of ignorance that, 'Son, this is your daddy, this is your mommy'. Then that child acquires this wrong belief, which no one can fracture. However, if someone were to just tell you, 'You are pure', how can that work? That should 'fit' ( _geda besvi_ ) in your undersanding; only then will the wrong belief be fractured. Otherwise the wrong belief will not fracture and until then no one will accept 'I am _Shuddhatma_ (pure Self)'. Up until now, your whole life you have believed, 'I am Chandubhai, I am Chandubhai' and so it has set in every _parmanu_ (subatomic particle). To take that out now; to fracture that wrong belief - that only the Gnani Purush can do for you.

## Ultimately liberation is only through becoming the Self

**Questioner** : It is also said that one can be free from the worldly life if he thinks about the Self ( _Atma_ ) even for a minute.

**Dadashri** : He can be free from the worldly life if he becomes the Self. However when he thinks about the Self, there is no Self there. Thinking about the Self is just means to get to the Self.

**Questioner** : But when the state of becoming the Self arises, does the illusion of the worldly life break for sure?

**Dadashri** : The illusion will go away gradually. But whatever past account of _karma_ one has pending will not refrain from creating the illusion, will it? The new state is of value only if it is with _samvar_ (blocking the influx of _karmic_ matter into the soul. No new charging of _karma_ ). So if he becomes the Self for one minute, this state will remain forever.

**Questioner** : Never mind a minute, it does not stay for even forty-eight seconds.

**Dadashri** : It does not remain, then it will not do.

**Questioner:** It runs away before forty-eight seconds are up.

**Dadashri** : But it is not the Self that runs away. That which never runs away is called the Self. The Self is in the same form, whenever you look, and so the Self should be experienced as being separate and all the rest should be experienced as being separate.

**Questioner** : I understand that and I also experience that, but the 'net of illusory attachment' ( _mohajaad_ ) that arises is so strong that it drags me towards it.

**Dadashri** : In reality, there is nothing that can drag 'You (the Self)' away. That you have attained the Self has not yet come into 'exactness'. Once it comes into 'exactness', nothing can touch You, because only the discharge _karma_ remain and thus only their suffering ( _bhogvato_ ) remains. New _karma_ are not bound for sure. If one attains the Self; then only _samvar_ (block of the influx of _karmic_ matter) remains, and there is no _bandha_ (binding of new _karma_ ; cause of next life) where there is _samvar_. A person who does not have Self-realization ( _agnani_ ), as well as a Self-realized person ( _Gnani_ ) both have influx of _karmic_ matter ( _ashrav_ ) and discharge of _karma_ ( _nirjara_ ), but there is binding of _karmic_ matter ( _bandha_ ) for the one who does not have Self-realization, whereas, for the Gnani, due to the energy of Gnan (Knowledge), _samvar_ prevails.

**Questioner** : _Ashrava_ , _nirjara_ and _samvar_ , one quickly transfers back and forth within all these three stages, is that considered the force of _karma_?

**Dadashri** : The force of _karma_ is very very strong. Despite this, _karma_ are neutral; meaning they are _napunsak_ (energyless here). So they cannot do anything. As long as 'Your' support is not there, they cannot do anything. They are able to do something, only if you give them your support, otherwise they will come to an end. Once they become unsupported, they cannot do anything to 'You'. But when you give them support by saying 'I did this', they can shake you up!

**Questioner** : The support that is given, is it due to past _karma_?

**Dadashri** : That is called ignorance of the Self ( _agnanta_ ). _Karma_ will continue to discharge, but you support them by saying, 'I am doing it.' _Karma_ that have come into effect will play out their part without fail, but in that you say 'I did it'.

**Questioner** : So I should suffer those _karma_ without any desires; which I do not do and my tendencies ( _vruti_ ) enter into them. Is that what happens?

**Dadashri** : Without Gnan, it is very difficult to get rid of the doership ( _kartabhav_ \- 'I am doing'). Doership will not arise if there is Gnan. When doership does not arise, _samvar_ prevails, and where there is _samvar_ , there is _samadhi_ (a state of being undisturbed by any external non-Self forces or reactions).

**Questioner** : I can reach the state of _samvar_ , but I cannot remain still and steady.

**Dadashri** : No, _samadhi_ will definitely remain where there is _samvar_. Where there is _samadhi_ , know that the man has _samvar_.

**Questioner:** But if for some reason there is binding of _karma_ ( _bandha, karmabandha_ ), what should I do?

**Dadashri:** Nothing needs to be done. The need is to become the Self ( _Atma_ ).

**Questioner:** For that, does one not have to use the mind and think about what the right solution might be?

**Dadashri** : Once one becomes the Self, there is nothing to think about. For how long does one need to resort to thinking? One has to think as long as there is a doubt of, 'Is this the Self or is that the Self?' Thinking is needed as long as there is doubt about the Self.

**Questioner** : There will always be a place for reasoning and speculation in regards to the Self, as long as there is the worldly life, no?

**Dadashri:** Therefore the Self should be attained from a Gnani Purush and that 'Self' should be Gnan, and in accordance with His Agnas.

**Questyioner:** I try to do that, yet reasoning and doubts do arise.

**Dadashri:** You have to take 'Gnan' from here just once; thereafter You have to follow the Agnas. Then you have to come to satsang and ask questions. This Gnan is _nirvikalp_ (free of 'I am Chandubhai' or 'my-ness'). How can _vikalp_ ('I am Chandubhai') happen in Knowledge that is _nirvikalp_? If _sankalp_ ('This is mine'), or _vikalp_ ( 'I am Chandubhai') happen, then it means that the Self has not been attained for sure. The one doing _sankalp-vikalp_ , can never become _nirvikalp_.

## The body leaves but not the beliefs

**Questioner** : When this body is reliquinshed, the 'wrong beliefs' automatically dispel, do they not?

**Dadashri** : You mean when a person dies?

**Questioner** : Yes.

**Dadashri** : No, those 'wrong beliefs' arise again; just because that person has died, it does not mean he has gone to _moksha_. When a person dies, he takes with him whatever stock he has accumulated while he was living. The stock of anger-pride-deceit-greed and whatever else is in the stock; it will all go with him. Nothing gets left behind; all the entire 'family' ( of _raag-dwesha_ ) will go with him and wherever his new birth takes place, it starts all over again.

**Questioner** : But do we not say that one has to leave everything behind when he dies? Then how can all that remain in the the stock?

**Dadashri** : That is only the gross things that one has to left behind. This family of subtle things will all go with him. Gross, meaning whatever one can see with the eyes; but there is also gross which cannot be seen with the eyes or even through miscroscopes. All that has to be left behind here, but all the subtle part will accompany him; all his _karma_ that he has bound, will go with him.

## When the belief changes, karma leave

**Questioner** : So then how can the 'wrong belief' be fractured?

**Dadashri** : You do not have to do that; 'we' have to do that for you. You cannot do that. If that were possible to do on your own, then you have been there for endless lives to do so. So it is the work for the 'doctor' (Gnani Purush). You just have to hand your body over to the 'doctor' for an hour and tell him, 'Perform whatever 'operation' that is necessary on me and bring about a solution for me'.

**Questioner** : There is _karma_ and there is a belief, what is the relation between the two? Because, when any one of the 'wrong beliefs' is broken, one feels very light. Can it be said that one has become free from _karma_ at that time?

**Dadashri** : It is the 'wrong belief' from which one becomes free.

**Questioner** : So are that much of _karma_ destroyed or not?

**Dadashri** : No, those very _karma_ change. When one becomes free from the belief, _karma_ become quiet; all that goes into _shata vedaniya karma_ ( _karma_ of pleasure suffering).

**Questioner** : Are these the _karma_ that are bound to us?

**Dadashri** : When the belief changes, the _karma_ that are bound, begin to become free from bondage. Otherwise, they will remain bound if the belief does not change. All these are 'wrong beleifs' only. One is a _Paramatma_ , but just look what has become of him!

## Destruction of the 'belief', with a 'belief'

**Questioner** : Now when the wrong belief is replaced with the right one, the person still benefits from the right belief, does he not? But is that not a belief also? And as long as a belief exists, there is _karma_ as its fruit, right?

**Dadashri** : But, there is no belief in what is 'right'. The right belief is there to uproot the wrong one. Otherwise, the wrong belief can never be destroyed, can it? And when the wrong belief is uprooted with the right one, then automatically the Self destroys the self. Thereafter nothing remains to be uprooted. It is with this course of action, that all this has been arranged. It is like this, otherwise there is no end to the proliferation of the wrong belief. This _samyak darshan,_ the right belief itself dissolves ultimately. The right belief is independent whereas the wrong belief is dependent.

## The siddhant of the element from the vision of independence

The Gnani Purush will make 'You' aware of the fact that 'you' are the one that has 'touched' the world. Otherwise there is not a thing in this world that can 'touch' 'You'. Someone you ask, 'so then I do not need anything?' and the answer is 'no, there is no need for You at all. There is no need for You to have any dependency ( _avlumban_ ) in this world!' Thereafter, when one comes into awareness, He will say 'I am _Shuddhatma_ (pure Self)'. Then, no worries or suffering will remain within. The worries and the inner turmoil, all takes place in the non-Self part but one takes it upon himself, saying, 'It is happening to me!' Hey you! It is not happening to You, it is taking place in someone else's house. How can anything happen to You? Whatever is happening, is taking place in that other one's home. What does that have to do with You? Besides, nothing can happen to the Self, can it? But all this is really an illusion of infinite past lives that makes him forget.

## The Vidhi by the Gnani separates the Self and the non-Self

**Questioner** : You say that the Self is completely separate from me, but how come it is not becoming completely clear to me?

**Dadashri** : It becomes separate after the separation has been performed, but otherwise the two remain as one ( _tanmayakar_ ). It becomes separate when 'we' perform the procedure for its separation, but otherwise it cannot become separated. So then what you have to say is 'in reality it is separate for sure'. But as long as there is the illusion, one remains in bondage. On the day 'we' give you Gnan, we separate the Self ( _Atma_ ) and the non-Self ( _anatma_ ), thereafter the direct experience of God will never go away for You and that is when You will begin to see 'your' faults. Until then, You can never see the faults. And when you begin to see the faults, they will dispel. As the faults are 'seen', they all depart.

## Gnan is attained as a result of inner intent

**Questioner** : What is in my fate? When will I receive the Gnan that you talk about? Tell me the time limit.

**Dadashri** : It will come; you have done the _bhaavna_ (inner intent) for it, so it will come, will it not? First the inner intent for it has to be done, only then will it come. If no inner intent is made, how can it come?

**Questioner:** I feel as if 'Delhi' (destination) is very far away.

**Dadashri:** Hey, there is nothing far in this world. Self itself is near you, so then how can Delhi be far? Self is close to you. When the unattainable Self is not far from you, then what else can you consider as being far?

##...then the obstacles to Gnan are destroyed

**Questioner** : Here many people come to you, but there are some who do not feel like taking Gnan. Why is that?

**Dadashri:** It is due to their obstacle _karma_ ( _antarai karma_ ). When those obstacles come to an end, then they will feel like taking Gnan. So then what should one do inorder to bring about an end to obstacles? Either he can decide firmly that 'no matter what, today I want to destroy my obstacles without fail' or he can tell the Gnani Purush 'Sir, please destroy my obstacles'. The Gnani Purush will then destroy them. But otherwise, _antarai_ _karma_ are such that even if there is a dinner plate in front of him, he will not be able to dine. The food is ready and he is getting ready to eat, but someone comes along and tells him, 'come, quickly you have to come right away'. He will have to leave his already served plate of food; that is called _antarai_ _karma_.

## Then the Self is experienced in conduct

**Questioner** : How can one attain the experience of the Self from you?

**Dadashri** : Right now do you have any experiences? Do you not have the experience of feeling cold? Do you not have the experience of feeling the heat? If someone insults you, does bitterness arise within; do you not have that experience? Which experience do you want?

**Questioner** : The experience of the Self.

**Dadashri** : What is the definition of the experience of the Self? It is a state of eternal bliss! Bliss that never leaves is called experience of the Self.

**Questioner** : How can one attain that?

**Dadashri** : What do you want to do with it? What do you need permanent bliss for? And then, do you have a need for a wife or money?

**Questioner** : No I do not.

**Dadashri** : Then, do you need this body or not?

**Questioner** : I have no need for anything except God.

**Dadashri** : That is true, yours is the work of a brave man. But for that, you have to know 'who is God?' 'What is the world? Who created it? What is God? Who are you? How did this world arise? How can you realize God?'- You have to know all that.

**Questioner** : What is the solution for that?

**Dadashri** : The solution is right here; the solution for it is nowhere else in the world. Right here is the entire path!

**Questioner** : But it is worthless without the experience, is it not?

**Dadashri** : Yes, you have to have the experience.

**Questioner** : When can that happen?

**Dadashri** : You can experience that when you have no desire for anything other than God, other than the Self. That also means that you should not want anything like a wife or money. And here (with the Gnani Purush), you will get that experience. When? In this very life, and that too not over two or three months but within an hour!

**Questioner** : Then how should we constantly remain one ( _tanmayakar_ ) with the Self?

**Dadashri** : When a person takes Gnan here and then follows 'our' Agnas, it is possible for him to continuously remain as the Self. But all these worldly entanglements will not let him remain constantly in the Self. You still have worldly entanglements, do you? Then the children will say, 'Dad, give me tuition money'. You tell him, 'I have the money but will I not need to go out get change? Do you not need to go out and get change for a hundred-rupee note? And if one is not married, he still has a job. So, these are all worldly entanglements and as long as they are there, one cannot constantly remain as the Self. But when our inner intents towards these entanglements go down, and as we being to understand that bliss lies in the Self, these entanglements will begin to diminish and then you will be able to remain as the Self.

## Understanding the word 'Shuddhatma'

**Questioner** : They say that the Self is solid _sat chit anand_ (the awareness of the eternal is bliss). Is it an imagination or is it true?

**Dadashri** : Why? It is true. It is true that the Self is absolute _sat chit anand_. There is no imagination there.

**Questioner** : What about the people who call it an imagination?

**Dadashri** : The one imagining such is not aware of what _sat chit anand_ is. When he attains that awareness, he will attain eternal bliss. And when one attains such eternal bliss, he will attain the _sat chit anand_ state.

**Questioner** : Why is it called _Shuddhatma_ when it is completely _sat chit anand_?

**Dadashri** : The Self is in the form of _sat chit anand_. But why have people not been given the word _sat chit anand_? That is because people will not understand it as it is a quality-expressing-word. They need _Shuddhatma_ (pure Self) and that is why people have been given the word _Shuddhatma_. Why do they need the term 'pure soul' ( _Shuddhatma_ )? People say, 'I am a sinner'. So 'we' tell him that if he were to understand the science, then sin would not touch him at all. Truly 'You' are a _Shuddhatma_ , but 'your' belief is wrong. It is like a man sleeping alone in a dark room, who during the day had heard stories about ghosts and so when he hears a noise of the cup falling in the night, right then he will have the wrong belief that there is a ghost in the house. Now until that wrong belief goes away, he will remain in that same state; all scared.

## Shuddhatma cannot be attained by saying 'Soham - I am That'

**Questioner** : What is the difference between saying, 'I am _Shuddhatma_ ' and saying ' _soham_ ' ('I am That')?

**Dadashri** : There is no need to say, 'I am That' ( _soham_ ). 'You' are _'Shuddhatma'_. What does _soham_ mean? It means, 'I am That'- but how do you attain salvation in saying that? So our salvation is only in saying 'I am _Shuddhatma_ ' because it means 'this _Shuddhatma_ is who I am'. Whereas in ' _soham'_ you are saying 'That is who I am' – there is no meaning in that. ' _Sohum'_ is a tool to attain the _Shuddhatma_. For the one who has attained the goal, there is no longer any need for him to use any tools.

## After becoming shuddha, can one can say ' I am Shuddhatma'

**Questioner** : Can one become ' _Shuddhatma_ ' by saying 'I am _Shuddhatma_ '?

**Dadashri** : You cannot become that. There are many people who do say, 'I am a _Shuddhatma_ ', but they do not attain anything.

**Questioner** : If we have not attained Gnan from you, but in having read in a book or having heard someone else say it, if we were to say 'I am _Shuddhatma_ ', do we benefit from that?

**Dadashri** : You will not get anywhere in doing that. Not even if you were to say ' _Shuddhatma_ ' for thousands of life times.

Say, your friend falls asleep while you are talking to him but thinking he is still awake, you ask him to loan you some money, and before you ask him again, he says, 'I will give you five thousand rupees'. Should you believe him? Would you not have to check it out whether he was awake or asleep when he said that? If he was talking in his sleep, you will not get that money even if you spent the whole night waiting. And if he said it while he was awake, he would give it to you. In the same way, people talk in their sleep. Similarly, they are saying, 'I am _Shuddhatma_ ' in their 'sleep' (ignorance state), and therefore they do not gain anything out of it. The awareness of 'I am _Shuddhatma_ ' has to be given to you by a Gnani Purush, so You will have the awareness and You will benefit from saying it. So first I awaken you and then make You say 'I am _Shuddhatma_ ', I don't make you say it otherwise. And I give You complete _moksha_ within an hour. _Moksha_ means that You will never have worries; that is the kind of _moksha_ I give You.

## Can you light with a real lamp or a picture of a lamp?

**Questioner** : Without taking Gnan, can a person benefit by saying, 'I am _Shuddhatma_ ', having read about it in a book?

**Dadashri** : No benefit at all. Saying 'I am _Shuddhatma_ ' will not work without taking Gnan.

And in the books, it is written that 'Self is pure ( _shuddha_ ) and that You are a _Shuddhatma_ (pure Self) and that You are not all this'. [But] As a _Shuddhatma_ , you cannot do anything in the worldly life. That _dravya_ (element) does its job and this _dravya_ (element) does its job.' That is what they are trying to say. But how can people maintain the awareness of _Shuddhatma_? How can he maintain the awareness of 'I am _Shuddhatma_ ' when he has ego and anger-pride-deceit-greed along with that? People memorize it and say, 'I am _Shuddhatma_ ' the whole day long, but they cannot attain the awareness of being _Shuddhatma_ , can they? When the Gnani Purush destroys one's demerit _karma_ ( _paap_ ), that is when the awareness of _Shuddhatma_ becomes established within and that awareness remains all day long, but it will not otherwise. So first the demerit _karma_ (sins) have to be cleansed off.

**Questioner** : If your five Agnas have been written down, then even hundred or two hundred years from now, if someone reads them and thinks about them, can he attain the state of _Shuddhatma_ or not?

**Dadashri** : No, no. There will be some Gnani around, for two to five hundred years. Something or other is bound to arise. In everyone, sooner or later, the 'light' within will be kindled, so if such a person is there, then he can help others. But otherwise, one cannot become _Shuddhatma_ so easily.

## Shuddhatma cannot be attained through chanting

One person tells me, 'I keep reciting that I am _Shuddhatma_.' So I told him, 'Hey! You keep reciting _Shuddhatma_ and still you have not attained the _Shuddhatma_?' He then tells me, 'No. Then next day I started wonder and think 'what was that word?...what was that word?', but I did not remember that word until four hours later.' So a person will forget even the words, so _samaran_ (repeated chanting of a name or a word) will not bring awareness. Instead it is better to chant the wife's name; at least she will cook good food for him! People, who have taken up such chanting, have neither gone to the celestial world ( _devagati_ ), nor have they attained any prosperity here! So they got the runaround from both sides. It would have been worth it even if they attained some prosperity here!

They will tell you, 'We are giving you this _samaran_ ; you just keep doing the _samaran_ '. Hey you! But what should I do if I forget the _samaran_? And when does a chanting truly remain? If there is attachment ( _raag_ ) for it, then the chanting will remain automatically. Otherwise if a person has tremendous abhorrence ( _dwesh_ ) for something, then he will keep remembering it. So when there is a lot of attachment for something, one will keep remembering it and that is called chanting.

And the fruit of all chanting is the worldly life. You will have to keep on wandering life after life; do you understand this fact? Do you understand what chanting mean? So the Self should constantly be present and start 'talking' on its own. It should not be a situation where you have to make the effort of having to recite it. It should prevail naturally.

**Questioner** : But can the inspiration of saying 'I am _Shuddhatma_ ' come from within or not?

**Dadashri** : Yes of course it can!

**Questioner** : Then does he say it or is he made to say it?

**Dadashri** : Here there is no issue of anyone saying it or making someone say it. Here there is no one saying it, and even if someone were made to say it, the one directing him to do so will become liable.

So what you are looking for, there is darkness there. What you are asking for ahead; it is all darkness. There is no one there to make him say it (reciting of 'I am _Shuddhatma_ '). All this is scientific circumstantial evidences. What you are talking about is nothing but pitch darkness (no light of knowledge there). Many who have gone in that direction have all been wandering around in vain!

Factionalism

**Questioner** : The Gnan of _Shuddhatma_ we attain from you, does it not create and become a cult or a sect?

**Dadashri** : No, this does not have any sect, does it? Sects are where there is _vibhavikata_ (that which is of the non-Self). Where there is _swabhavikta_ (of the Self) naturalness ( _sahajata_ ) and spontaneity arises there; there is never a sect there! Because where one sees the pure Self in the trees and the leaves, where is the scope of separation by cult or sect there? He sees God everywhere.

## Oneness with God is there when the wrong belief goes away

**Questioner** : If _Shuddhatma_ itself is God, He is within us; then He cannot be anywhere else, can He?

**Dadashri** : Yes, that is it! The one that is within is God; there is no other God anywhere else in this world.

**Questioner** : So then one can never have separation with that God, can one?

**Dadashri** : But right now, 'you' have the separation ( _bheda_ ). You will become one with God only when You become _abheda_ without any separation. But you want to be 'Chandubhai' and 'some woman's husband, some boy's father, someone's uncle.' Then God will not become one with you, will he? If You belong to God, then He will become one with You. If You become _Shuddhatma_ ; if You become God's, then 'You' become one with God. The separation has been created by you; not by God. When you say 'I am this lady's husband', then God will say, 'then go be a husband!' So this is how separation is created with God. And this science is for the goal of becoming one with God. The whole world is looking for God and they are doing so inorder to become one with Him.

You are correct in asking why this separation happened. It is true is it not? God is within you, but why do you not feel oneness with Him? One has never bothered about Him, has one? All one cares about is, 'this is my wife and these are my children. And this is my brother and this is my uncle'. He has not cared about God. Not even the devotees care about God. The devotees are engrossed with their cymbals and are intoxicated in their singing. No one cares about God. God tells me everyday, 'no one cares about me'. Some are intoxicated with drinking tea, some are intoxicated with drugs, some are intoxicated with alcohol, some are intoxicated with their wives, some are intoxicated with money and some are intoxicated with something else. The whole world is entrenched in intoxication.

## To experience Shuddhatma, say 'Shuddhatma'

**Questioner** : Why do you say ' _Shuddhatma_ ', why do you not say just 'Self' ( _Atma_ ) ? The _Atma_ too is _chetan_ (the Self), is it not?

**Dadashri** : _Shuddhatma_ means _shuddha chetan_ (pure Self). We call it _shuddha_ (pure) because, before one used to think, 'I am a sinner, I am unfit, I am like this or I am like that.' All those blame he had about himself are all gone. If 'we' say just ' _Atma'_ instead of ' _Shuddhatma_ ', then one will forget his own purity, his awareness of his unsmearable ( _nirleypata_ ) state will go away. That is why 'we' call it ' _Shuddhatma_ '.

**Questioner** : What is the essence of _Shuddhatma_?

**Dadashri** : It is _asanga_ (unassociated with anything, detached), it is _nirleyp_ (unsmearable, unanointed); whereas the _atma_ (self) is not like that. The _atma_ is tainted and defiled and _Shuddhatma_ is _Paramatma_. Do people of all religions not say, 'My _atma_ is a sinner'? And yet the _Shuddhatma_ does not have any problems.

_Shuddhatma_ itself suggests that 'now we have become unsmearble ( _nirleyp_ ); all the sins are gone'. And it is because of _shuddha_ _upayoga_ (pure applied awareness of the Self) that it has been called ' _Shuddha_ _atma_ '. However, those with ' _atma_ ' do not have pure awareness. As far as _atma_ is concerned, everyone is an _atma_ , no? But those who have pure applied awareness ( _shuddha_ _upyogi_ ); they are called ' _Shuddhatma_ '. There are four kinds of _atmas_ ; one _ashuddha_ _upyogi_ (one with impure awareness), _ashubha_ _upyogi_ (one with inauspicious awareness), _shubha_ _upyogi_ (one with auspicious awareness) and _shuddha_ _upyogi_ (one with pure awareness of the Self). These are the different kinds of _atmas_. So if we just say ' _atma_ ', then which one of these _atma_ is it? So we say, ' _Shuddhatma_ '. Therefore the One with pure awareness is _Shuddhatma_. Now, the applied awareness ( _upayoga_ ) has to be kept pure. So to keep the applied awareness pure, there is _Shuddhatma_ , but otherwise the applied awareness cannot remain pure, can it?

One man asked, 'Dada, everywhere else they call it ' _atma_ ', whereas you call it ' _Shuddhatma_ ', why is that?' I told him, 'what they call as ' _atma_ ' cannot be the _atma_ and our reason for calling it ' _Shuddhatma'_ is different altogether. What are we saying? Once 'we' help you experience that 'You'ou are _Shuddhatma_ and this 'Chandubhai' is separate, you have understood that even through your intellect. Now if Chandubhai ends up doing the worst thing possible, something that he will be publicly criticized for, at that time, You should not lose the awareness of 'I am _Shuddhatma_ '. Do not ever believe 'I am _ashuddha_ (impure)'. It is to say this very thing that we call it ' _Shuddhatma_ '. 'You have not become impure' – it is to say this that we have to say ' _Shuddhatma_ '. The _Shuddhatma_ state we have given to You, that pure state then never changes. That is why we placed the word ' _shuddha'_ (pure). With reference to impurity, as long as this body is there, impurity is bound to happen. For some it may become more impure and for others less; but it will continue to happen without fail. And then it enters in one's mind that, 'Dada has made me pure, and yet the impurity still remains.' And if this enters the mind, then everything becomes ruined again.

## Karma bondage through doership that prevails

**Questioner** : If someone were to slap a person who has attained knowledge of _Shuddhatma_ , and he slaps him back, are we to understand that the knowledge has had no effect on him? Or else should we understand that his state of _Shuddhatma_ is weak?

**Dadashri** : It cannot be said that the Knowledge of _Shuddhatma_ is weak.

**Questioner** : So then why did he strike back?

**Dadashri** : When he slaps the other person back, 'He' is separate at that time. And in his mind he has the regret that 'it should not be this way. Why does it happen this way?' This Gnan is such that when a person makes a mistake, he will immediately know it and the moment he knows his mistake, he repents for it.

And the incident that happened and Gnan have nothing to do with each other. All these are his discharge intents.

**Questioner** : If one has become a _Shuddhatma_ , if he has taken this Gnan and has become 'perfect', what should we know about his behavior?

**Dadashri** : That he does not have any 'egoism'; his doership has vanished.

**Questioner** : Suppose, there is the awareness of 'I am not the doer', and then what if I slap him and tell him that, 'I am not slapping him, it is the body that is doing it and it is not the Self that is doing it' – what then?

**Dadashri** : You cannot say that, can you? You cannot claim, 'the body did the hitting'. There is grave liability in that. If one justifies it by saying, 'the body gave the slap, I did not do it, the _Atma_ di not hit', then we can say, 'Hold on a minute then. Let me poke the body with a needle!' So one will not say 'the body did the hitting'.

It is like this; slapping is one kind of discharge process. After Gnan, 'one' stops charging new _karma_ and only the discharge remains. One is no longer liable for that.

" _Karta_ _mitey_ , _toh_ _chhootey_ _karma_ \- when doership goes away; then so does _karma_ ".

The doership for him is gone.

**Questioner** : The intent (view, _bhaav_ ) of 'I am doing it' should go away.

**Dadashri** : That is all; if that much of the intent goes away, the work is accomplished.

## Pure or impure – from which view?

Without attaining _Atmagnan_ (knowledge of the Self), if one says that he is a liberated man; it is not true. People recite two or four sentences like, 'I have infinite energy, I have infinite vision', they recite four or five such attributes (of the Self) and then they believe it to be _Atmagnan_. There is no _Atmagnan_ in that. The intent behind writing 'I am _Shuddhatma_ ' in books is to say that 'you are not all this but you are that'. They are trying to change your vision in this way. They are trying to tell you to come into that intent ( _bhaav,_ vision), but that does not mean that you have attained the Self.

One can be said to have attained the Self, when he attains _Atmagnan_ (Knowledge of the Self), which is the _karan keval Gnan_ (causal absolute Knowledge ). _Atmagnan_ does not happen to anyone. At the moment, no one has _Atmagnan_. If one did, his speech would not be like it is today, his conduct would not be the way it is; there would be no insistence at all.

_Atmagnani_ (Self-realised) does not have any insistence ( _agraha_ ). And ego or insistence do not exist where there is _Atmagnan_. However, wherever there is ego, where there is insistence, they do not know anything. It is true that they have scriptural knowledge but there is ego in it. The scriptures that do not remove the ego have not been of any use to us.

**Questioner** : Many who have had the vision say that the Self is ' _shuddha_ - _buddha'_.

**Dadashri** : Yes, they do say ' _shuddha-buddha'_. Now if the Self is _shuddha_ (pure) and _buddha_ (enlightened; awakened), then why do you go to the temple? And why do you read the scriptures? Is this not worth understanding? So that is a relative talk. In some respect it is pure ( _shuddha_ ). Yes, as long as one is Chandubhai and an _agnani_ (not Self-realished), the _atma_ cannot be considered as pure ( _shuddha_ ). Yes, if your _agnan_ (ignorance of the Self) goes away, then the 'Self' is pure, for sure. It has always been pure within, it has never become impure, but if you just keep reciting ' _shuddha-buddha'_ , you will gain nothing. You should have the experience of that purity ( _shuddha_ ). So if you want to say it then say, 'with reference to the body, I am impure but with reference to the Self, I am pure'. Because the Self is _nirpeksha_ (absolute, independent). But the statement must be relative ( _sapeksha_ ); one cannot state only the absolute alone that 'the _Atma_ is pure'. If you say that the _Atma_ is pure, then there is no need to look for the _Atma_ , is there?

## One has to know 'what is' and 'what is not'

The _gurus_ tell their disciple, 'you are this' and so he goes around chanting about it. But _gurus_ do not tell him, 'you are not this'; they have to tell him, both these things. But they only tell him, 'you are this'. They have not told him, 'you are not this'. Therefore he lives in the self but is chanting about 'I am' (Self).

Many people who come here, tell me, 'my _guru_ has given this (special mantra) to me'. I tell them, 'it is correct; it is not wrong. Your _guru_ has given it to you. But tell me what have you gained from it so far. If someone instigates you, do you get irritated?' So he tells me, 'that does not go away and it will take a long time for it to pass'. I told him, 'No, once knowledge of the Self is attained, it takes no time'. So he asked me, 'why is it delayed?' I asked him, 'you have not been told 'what you are not'. You have been told what you are but had you been told what you are not, then it would be helpful.' Now which _guru_ will have this knowledge of what you are not? You tell me!

Right now, 'are you not (present) in this eating and in drinking?' A person may have taken the adjustment of 'I am _shuddha-buddha_ only'. But now, why don't you find out what you are not, or is everything fine the way it is? 'I am shuddha-buddha' and 'so is the cardamom _shuddha-buddha'_ too? What are you not? So until there is such distinct description of the differences, nothing can be attained and that is why one just wanders around. For countless past lives, this is the very same wandering that has carried on.

Narsinha Mehta (famous spiritual poet of Gujarat 1414-1481) had done a great deal of analysis because he was a critical thinker. He was no ordinary _Nagar_ ( a specific Brahmin caste). " _Nagar baccho, kabhi na hoi kaccho! - Nagar_ progeny can never be weak!" He was no ordinary human being. He did a great deal of analyzing. Then he made the statement:

' _Jya lagi Atma tattva chinhyo nahi, tya lagi sadhana sarva juthi'_

Until the knowledge of the Self element is attained; all efforts are in vain."

So, he is telling us that his own efforts of attaining the Self ( _sadhana_ ) _were_ wrong. So one may ask, what does it mean to 'know' ( _chinhyo_ ) the _Atma tattva_ the element that is the Self? It is to know 'what is' and it is to know 'what is not'; that is called ' _Atmatattva'_. And it does not matter if you do not know 'what is', but if you know 'what is not', then that is enough. This is because if you know 'what is not then the other is 'what is' is understood. And that which is understandable is a fact, and it does not matter if you do not know that. But one must know 'what it is not'; whereas people learned about 'what is' and have started 'singing-chanting' about it. And while eating sweets...what happens? This is exactly what's been going on and that is why one has had to wander around for infinite past lives.

## How can one know 'what he is not'?

**Questioner** : Now please you tell me about that 'negative side' (what is not, what I am not); how can I learn about that 'negative' side?

**Dadashri** : I will explain all that to you on that day. At that time You will learn about all that 'negative'. Then You will enjoy all these talks. Then what I am saying will reach You.

That is why I tell all these people they need to know 'what is not'. At that time if they tell me, 'I want to know 'what is not', then I would tell them, 'get rid of only the 'my''. 'My hands' - You are not that. 'my head' – You are not that. You are not even the 'my eyes'. Keep subtracting all that. Then subtract the mind. 'My mind, my egoism, my speech...keep taking away all that. A person will say, 'So then I will attain salvation. It will come right away!' So then why don't you do it? But how can the poor fellow do it? First his demerit _karma_ ( (sins) need to be destroyed.

What is this whole world like? If a person does something a certain way, he gets stuck in it, if he does it another way, he gets stuck there. So everything is relative; if a person fulfills one expectation, he will have another. So it is only after 'we' destroy his demerit _karma_ does he understand 'what is' and 'what is not'. We told one scientist from a foreign country about 'what one is not'.

We had gone to Lonawala, where these people from abroad had come. They said, 'Give us something.' So I told them, 'Separate 'I' and 'my' with the Gnani's 'separator'. I told him, 'I will not give you my 'separator' but I will show you the way to separate everything from within. So using that method, subtract the 'my', subtract this and subtract that. But how can he do it? How could he attain it without the destruction of his demerit _karma_? Because those demerit _karma_ bring a veil over this Gnan of the Self and that is why demerit _karma_ must be destroyed first. One is not able to remember because of the presence of those demerit _karma_. And how is it that the _Shuddhatma_ constantly remains in this man's awareness? Because his demerit _karma_ have been destroyed and that is why he has the constant awareness.

**Questioner** : That subtle veil that exists, it has to be removed, no?

**Dadashri** : 'We' will remove that for you.

## One attains moksha leisurely in the 'lift' of the Akram path

**Questioner** : You have said that for _Atmagnan_ (Knowledge of Self), the path of Akram (without steps) is easier than the _kramic_ path (the tradition path of having to climb one step at a time).

**Dadashri** : Yes, Akram path means a 'lift' path and _kramic_ path means stairs, where one has to climb one step at a time (to attain _moksha_ ). In the Akram path, one has to just get in the lift and attain _moksha_ without having to do anything. If you are required to 'do' anything, it can be said that you have not met me (the Gnani). Therefore you do not have to do anything, except 'we' give you the five Agnas and tell you not to stick your hands or feet outside the elevator.

**Questioner** : But that path is not to be found so easily anywhere.

**Dadashri** : No, it is there! It is open and thousands of people are on it. At least some twenty-five thousand people are on it and you are saying that you cannot find it. How can you say that? It is there but it has to open up for you. The timing has to be right, does it not? You will find it when the time is right.

When you find all the solutions for the mind, then the time will be right. Then the mind will be satisfied that the path is right. Thereafter the train will get on to the tracks otherwise the train will never get on the right track. The train will keep running on the track of illusion but it will never come onto the main line. Nowhere, can anyone be found on the main line either. They will be on the line of illusion only. And Akram path means the main line. So it is the 'full stop' path; this is not a path of a 'comma'.

What does _kramic_ path mean? It means a step-by-step path. That is, a person can climb five thousand steps if he meets a saint. Then if he meets an acquaintance, he will take him to a café (places of temptation; wrong places) and so he will go down three thousand steps. In this manner, he climbs up and he slips down, he climbs up and he slips down. So that is not a 'safeside' path.

**Questioner** : What should one do to take the Akram path?

**Dadashri** : You have come here so if you just tell me, 'Sir, bring about a solution for me'; the solution will then come. Only when the obstacles ( _antarai_ ) have been removed, is one able to talk this way. Otherwise one will say, 'I will see to it. I will do it later!' and he will waste away two years. Then he will come back. And because he returned, he will attain it. Out of a thousand, one or two may fail, but not the others. The rest will attain the Gnan, because who would let go of instant cash rewards? And what is more, one does not have to do anything at all! He simply has to sit inside the lift.

## Meeting the Gnani is the only qualification needed

**Questioner** : Can anyone attain this Gnan or does one need to have certain qualifications?

**Dadashri** : No. Just coming here is his qualification; no other qualifications are needed. The qualification is that he has come here. But otherwise, how can these people ever pass those types of qualifications? Whereas, here, we even accept those who have failed! We will even put those who have failed, on the path to final liberation!

## The desire to know will grant You the ultimate thing

**Questioner** : When we attain Gnan, will we go higher in our state?

**Dadashri** : Then there will be no difference between You and 'us'. The only difference will be that I got rid of my stock of _karm_ and sold the 'shop', whereas you still have to get rid of all your stock in the shop. Sugar, raw brown sugar...whatever else is left, you have to settle ( _nikal_ ) it. Whereas, I am sitting here having settled everything. That is the only difference!

I am indeed making you sit next to me; where I am, I make you sit there. So when you get such a high status; that is when your worries will cease, no? But otherwise, is it so easy to stop worries?

Not a single man in this world has ever become worry-free; I make you worry-free. Now you can only become worry-free when I make you sit at my level, my state, right? It cannot happen otherwise, can it?

When your worries stop; then know that you are going to _moksha_ in one more lifetime. When you have no worries at all, despite living amidst the worldly life, living with the wife and children; despite carrying out your worldly obligations if you have no more worries, then know that you are headed for _moksha_ in one more life; that is a guarantee.

**Questioner** : It is difficult to attain such a state.

**Dadashri** : It is difficult for sure but this is the science of Akram which has manifest, and so going to _moksha_ is easier than cooking rice! Otherwisem it is difficult to attain this Akram science; it is difficult for such merit _karma_ ( _punyai_ ) to come into effect. One will be blessed if he attains this science. Because once your merit _karma_ come into effect, you don't have to do anything at all. You have to sit inside the lift but don't stick your hands or feet outside it and that is why You have been given these Agnas. 'You' have to follow them.

**Questioner** : At the moment, we are seekers of Knowledge ( _jignasu_ ); we wish to know the difference between _Gnan_ and _agnan_ (Knowledge and ignorance of the Self).

**Dadashri** : At the moment your state is of the seeker ( _jignanshu_ ), but does this state prevail the whole daylong?

**Questioner** : Most of the time.

**Dadashri** : No, that desire to seek cannot be there all day long. At the moment your state is that of _jignasu_ but if you are admitted into a hospital, your state becomes that of a patient. Whatever circumstances that prevail, you accept those circumstances and so your state of being, corresponds to that of the circumstances. But up until now, should you not have searched for your real Self; for who you really are?

**Questioner** : I should have.

**Dadashri** : Then why have you not done so?

**Questioner** : Our search for it continues, sir.

**Dadashri** : Where have you been looking?

**Questioner** : Through reading, attending _satsangs_ , through meeting the Gnani Purush; our search continues in this manner.

**Dadashri** : That search is fine. As a consequence of such a search, today you have been able to come in front of the Gnani Purush. Now you have to tell the Gnani Purush, you have to ask him for whatever you want. You are free to ask for whatever you want. You are free to fill out a 'tender form' for whatever you want.

If you go to buy raddish, they too are valuable. They are asking for ten rupees for raddishes. Whereas this Gnan invaluable, so what is it that we have to acquire? One cannot put a value to it, can one? So you should maintain the awareness of 'this is what I have to receive'. And you have to be prepared for it. Even when a student is being awarded a prize at school, with what readiness he goes up to receive his award. With such modesty and humility he receives his award. Similarly, can there be some advanced preparation for this? One should have such similar inner intent and awareness. How excited does a student become when he is told that he has won an award! Whereas here we are talking about giving you something that is priceless.

## Special matchless unique siddhis of the Akram path

When, in this world, not a single duality affects You, not a thing affects you, when the awareness, 'I am _Paramatma_ ' (absolute Self) becomes eastablished, then salvation ( _kalyan_ ) has happened! Or else even if one attains the faith ( _shraddha_ ), the conviction ( _pratiti_ ) of 'I am _Shuddhatma_ ' (I am pure Soul) ; even then One makes progress. Thefore it should first come into the understanding. Until it comes into understanding, the conduct may or may not change. But one is considered to have come into Gnan, only when the conduct changes. Gnan is that which manifests into conduct.

The Gnan 'we' give You is the Gnan of absolute Vision ( _keval_ _Darshan_ ), the Gnan of _kshayak_ _samkit_. Then if remains in 'our' Agnas, there will be the fruits of both. And when does it become _kshayak_ _Gnan_? When after the understanding ( _darshan, samaj_ ) manifests in conduct ( _vartan, charitra_ ); that is when _kshayak_ _Gnan_ will happen.

What I give you is _keval Gnan_ (absolute Knowledge) but owing to the current era time cycle, You are unable to digest all of it. Still 'we' have to give You complete absolute Knowledge ( _keval_ _Gnan_ ). Because if we do not; then it is not likely to manifest within you, because of the current time cycle, it does not get 'digested' completely. Even though it does not get digested properly, we do not have a problem with that, because once _moksha_ is in our hands, what more do we need?

After giving you such a _moksha_ , there is no problem if you have to get your children married (live life fulfilling your worldly obligations). Otherwise if you hurt anyone and try to go to _moksha_ , are they likely to let you go there? Because the wife will say, 'you cannot leave now; you may leave after we get our youngest daughter married'. And if otherwise you run away, are you likely to attain _moksha_? What has the Lord said? He has said that it is not the worldly life that is an obstacle in the path to liberation; ignorance is the obstacle. Once ignorance goes away, then what problem do you have?

## To know the Atma is to experience the Self

Otherwise generally the _atma_ that people know of is the 'mechanical _atma_ '. So if we ask them, 'Have you attained the Self ( _samkit_ )?' they will reply, 'No, that I have not attained'. What remains after One knows (experiences) the Self? That is beyond _kshayak_ _samkit_ (state of fully annihilated _kashays_ ), and close to _keval Gnan_ (absolute Knowledge). So the Self is not something one can know so easily. That is why Krupadudev Srimad Rajchandra has written on the front of His cardinal book,

"He who has Known the Self, Knows everything."

This, that needs to be said, is written on the top. And if one does not Know (experience the Self), then he will struggle in vain. One has struggled in vain for countless past lives, and again he continues to do the same. That is what Krupadudev has said. Despite this, in this way, then one day he will find the true thing.

## It can be known through the Gnani's Gnan of separation

**Questioner:** Can one know the Self ( _Atma_ ) without knowing the non-Self ( _anatma_ )?

**Dadashri:** One will know the Self if he knows the non-Self, but it is knowledge through words. He cannot know the Self in that. That is why 'we' have said:

' _Mun-vachan-kayani tamaam sangi kriya thhi hu taddan asang chhoo._ '

"I am completely unassociated from all joint associated actitivity of the mind, speech and the body."

All those _sangi kriyas_ (associated joint activities) are the non-Self ( _anatma_ ).

' _Mun-vachan-kayana tamaam lepayamaan bhaavo thhi hu sarvathha nirleypa ja chhoo."_

"Amidst all intents of the mind speech and body that tend to anoint (smear), I remain eternally unanointed (unsmeared)."

These intents that tend to anoint, that arise in the mind, are all part of the non-Self.

**Questioner:** So can one know both the Self and the non-Self at the same time?

**Dadashri:** The two cannot be known at the same time. They both become separate when 'we' give you Gnan. But one will have to know everything as it is, no?

One does not even know so far, what the _tattva_ (the Self) is and he says, 'I am the Self, I am _Shuddhatma_.' He says things like, ' _gnan-darshan-charitra_ (knowledge-vision-conduct)'. But what is the Self ( _Atma_ ) in all that; one cannot know that, can one?

**Questioner:** So should a person work on the assumption of 'I don't know anything'?

**Dadashri:** 'I do not know anything'; that truly is a statement of wisdom.

## Worldly life ends through Vitaraag vision

Knowledge is a vision ( _drashti_ ). This vision is the vision through the eyes. And the other vision is _Gnan drashti_ (vision through Knowledge). You will be blessed if You know how to see through that _Gnan drashti_. With the physical eyes, one sees, 'This is my father-in-law, this is my _mama_ (mother's brother), this is my _foi_ (father's sister).' Is that all true? Is that all, correct? Is one a father-in-law forever? A person has a father-in-law as long as he or she is not divorced. That relationship ends the day one divorces, does it not? Therefore, these are all 'temporary adjustments'. The Gnani Purush can change that vision.

**Questioner:** He changes the externally directed vision into an internally directed one?

**Dadashri:** No, not that kind of internally directed vision. Right now, your vision is internalized too, but we change your vision so that you see the Self, outside too. Just as the Self resides within, is there not the Self on the outside also? 'We' make a change in the vision for you. Except for this activity, not even for a minute does the worldly life come in 'our' memory.

**Questioner:** And I cannot forget the worldly life for even a minute!

**Dadashri:** Therefore, there is a change in the entire design. There is a change in the entire vision, nothing else. You are seeing this, and on the other side, I am 'seeing' this way continuously. The entire vision is different. No other efforts have to be made in this. If someone were to change the vision for you, then 'You' too would begin to 'see' in exactly the same way.

Once the vision changes, that vision will blossom and slowly One will start becoming a'God'. But until the vision blossoms, if someone were to pick your pocket, you will see him at fault and blame him. Seeing through a flawed vision ( _drashtidosh_ ), one will see _pudgal_ (the non-Self) as individual separate entities.

**Questioner:** This is considered the fault of the physical eyes ( _charmachakshu_ ), is it not? If a person is in ignorance, how can he know that he is in ignorance?

**Dadashri:** One can never know that, can one? Then whatever his vision, he becomes like that. This vision of the physical eyes is not the vision. One's vision is according to the knowledge ( _gnan_ ) he has. Whatever knowledge one has attained, his vision is based on that knowledge and whatever one's vision is like, is how he sees everything around him. 'This is my enemy and this is my friend', he will say. Now, in this world there is no 'enemy' or 'friend' in this world. He sees everything that way because that is the vision that has been bound.

**Questioner:** One has to give up that which is wrong. A change will happen if we slowly develop our effort that much.

**Dadashri:** You will have to get rid of the dualities of 'right' and 'wrong' if you want to go to _moksha_. And if you want to come into the right and helpful ( _shubha_ ), then have abhorrence ( _dwesha_ ) and scorn for that which is wrong, and attachment ( _raag_ ) towards that which is good and helpful ( _shubha_ ). And in purity ( _shuddha_ ) there can be no attachment-abhorrence ( _raag_ - _dwesh_ ) towards either the good or the bad. That is because there is no such thing as good or bad, it is just impurity of the vision. This looks good and this looks bad, that is the impurity of the vision, and that itself is _mithyatva_ (wrong vision). So that poison in the vision ( _drashti visha_ ) should go. 'We' remove the poison in the vision for you, and when that happens, 'You' attain the awareness of the Self. Otherwise, it is no ordinary thing to attain the awareness of the Self. And _vitaragata_ (experience of the state free from _raag-dwesh_ ) should arise. _Raag-dwesh_ must not happen. _Raag-dwesh_ cannot be stopped through practice. If you keep practicing trying to stop _raag-dwesh_ , they will not stop. That will never happen. _Vitarag_ is a vision! Right now, your vision is of _raag-dwesh_ , whereas 'ours' is _vitarag_ vision. Therefore the difference is only in the vision. And the Gnani Purush can change that vision for you in no time, and then You will experience liberation.

## Without a change in the vision, everything is in vain

**Questioner:** So I was asking that the vision (of _raag-dwesh_ ) goes away but the tendencies ( _vruttis_ ) still remain, what about that?

**Dadashri:** How can the vision go away? No, there is no way it can. The tendencies can go away but the vision cannot. This world has become trapped because of the vision. Which vision is that? The answer is, 'The wrong vision'. One cannot see 'as it really is' and so 'he' remains engrossed ( _tanmayakar_ ) in what he sees. The tendencies break down but then newer ones arise and seep in. But as long as the vision does not change, the tendencies will keep on changing. One has not gained anything from that. Hey! A person has become a hermit; he does not even think of tasty things to eat; all his tendencies are broken, but even then without a change in the vision, nothing can be accomplished.

There are so many saints and ascetics who are such that when you sit next to them, ah!...you feel such calmness within. You feel 'oh my! How wonderful must this saint be?' It is the nature of ice to cool every thing around. So if that saint gives 'coolness', would you not understand that there is something good there? But I will tell you that there is nothing there because he has done nothing but destroyed the tendencies. Because he destroyed the tendencies, everything has become still within. And because of the stillness, he becomes helpful for people. But he is going to have to make it all unstill again, only then will he get his work done. Now how is the world to know all this?

**Questioner:** But can these 'saints' change the vision?

**Dadashri:** The vision does not change, the tendencies will change. Except for some egos and some tendencies, all other tendencies are brought to an end; there are many such people out there who can do that. If you happen to sit next to such a person, the atmosphere will be beautiful. I have seen this too. But even then I had discovered that they had nothing to offer. We can tell when we ask them questions regarding Gnan.

**Questioner:** They would not have it, would they?

**Dadashri:** So where there is no Gnan, there is no spirituality there either. These are all paths of the material world ( _adhibhautik_ ). There were spiritual paths in the past era of the current time cycle. Today however, people claim a person to be spiritual even when he is not.

**Questioner:** Dada, what if a person accepts that he is a 'blank paper', that he is a 'clean slate'?

**Dadashri:** It is very good if he accepts that, it is a wise thing.

**Questioner:** Then will his vision ( _drashti_ ) also change?

**Dadashri:** Certainly, but there should be someone to change it for him. He cannot do it on his own. This custom of the need for the one, who can change the vision, has been going on since time immemorial. From the moment the vision changes, your world ( _shrushti_ ) will appear changed, and that is called a change in vision. If your vision of the world ( _shrushti_ ) does not change, then how can you say that the vision ( _drashti_ ) has changed? Otherwise your state will be one of 'whatever is one's vision; so is his world'.

## The vision changes through the grace of Gnani

**Questioner:** So the main thing is that one should have vision that looks within ( _antar_ _mukha_ )?

**Dadashri:** People keeping looking within. Hey, there is nothing there within. You will only be able to see within when the Gnani shows you how. Otherwise, when one closes his eyes, he will see women within!

**Questioner:** So a person needs the support of someone inorder to see within, right?

**Dadashri:** It can happen through the grace of the Gnani Purush. How can one see within without grace? Otherwise people see their factories and pictures of all kinds of grand things.

**Questioner:** When can such grace arise?

**Dadashri:** When you do _darshan_ of the 'Gnani Purush', when you show humility towards Him, when You remain in His Agnas, You will receive His grace. Otherwise, how can you receive His grace just like that? Or can you attain his grace by opposing him? The Gnani Purush has no problems even if you oppose him, but how much harm it causes the one opposing him? 'We' do not have any problem if you curse us, but what kind of state will you be in? Therefore, we make you understand that you need to wise up. Does a snake not straighten up when it has to enter its burrow? Does it work if he goes in crooked? Does it straighten up at that time?

**Questioner:** Yes.

**Dadashri:** That is how you have to straighten up in the presence of the Gnani Purush. Being disrespectful will not do you any good here. Here, you have to remain in the Agna (the Gnani's instructions) because you can never get the opportunity to do _darshan_ of the Gnani Purush ever.

## Internalize the senses or become the Self?

**Questioner:** The five senses work on the outside, so should they be made to turn inward?

**Dadashri:** No, for many days in the past they have been turned inward before. By the time one manages to turn them inwards they escape outwards again. The moment one comes across 'goods' on the outside, it will take the senses no time to turn outwards. Besides, these senses have never remained calmly in one place for anyone. No one has been able to successfully build a 'pond' of these senses (contain them). Nevertheless, despite eating food, that man claimed to be on a perpetual fast. Who was that man?

**Questioner:** _Durvasa_ (a sage known for his anger and hot tempered nature).

**Dadashri:** Yes, and what has been said about Lord Krishna? He is forever a celibate ( _bhramachari_ ). That is because nothing touches him having come into his main state, the Self. So whether you turn the senses inwards or outwards or do anything else with them, it is merely an exercise. In doing so, it keeps the body and the mind healthy but your work can never be accomplished.

It is like this, if you don't know your way from here to the station, then even if you keep on roaming, are you likely to reach the station? So, will you not need to ask someone for the directions? Similarly, because of the prevailing ignorance, no work is being accomplished. Therefore one needs to get the understanding from the Gnani Purush about, 'who am I?' and 'why have I become bound?'

## They are all 'mechanical adjustments'!

**Questioner:** Now, in the state of having internally directed vision, I hear a voice that says, 'you are doing wrong' and other such things; so is that the _atma_ speaking?

**Dadashri:** That cannot be the _atma_ ; that is a 'tape record'. Just as there is a 'tape recorder' on the outside, within too, there is the 'original tape record'. Are you calling that the ' _atma_ '? Even the prominent officers say, 'my _atma_ is talking from within'. Hey! How is that the _atma_? That is a 'tape record'.

**Questioner:** If it is not the _atma_ talking, then who is saying, 'You are doing wrong'?

**Dadashri:** That is a 'tape record.' The worldly interacting knowledge that you know, that knowledge is not the _atma_. _Nischaya Gnan_ ( knowledge of the Self) is the _Atma_. The worldly knowledge that you know has been 'taped' before and that is the voice that you are hearing. And that is why it bothers you that, 'this is how the worldly interaction should be but I am doing it wrong'. So that cannot be the _Atma_.

However, the _Atma_ cannot eat, drink or say anything. All these are not the functions of the Self. The attributes of the _Atma_ are completely different.

There is a mixture of gold and copper in this ring; who would you give it to if you want to separate the two metals?

**Questioner:** A goldsmith.

**Dadashri:** Yes. That is because the goldsmith has knowledge about it. Similarly, in this body, there are two parts; the _Atma_ (Self) and the _anatma_ (non-Self). The one, who knows the intrinsic properties of both the _atma_ and _anatma_ , will separate the two; he will apply an entire 'laboratory' (science) and separate the two.

This is all a mechanical adjustment. When a person speaks, it is the 'record' that does the talking. What is the listener called? The listener is called a 'receiver.' So these are all mechanical adjustments. Even these eyes are mechanical adjustments. The entire brain is mechanical. It will cool down if we pour water over the head. Otherwise it can even become very hot and then we have to use damp cold packs on the forehead to cool it down, don't we? And there within, sits such a grand _Atma_ and yet there comes a time we have to put cold packs, don't we? But when we put the cold packs on, then everything cools down within otherwise it will become very hot on the inside also.

As long as there is ignorance ( _agnan_ ), the _atma_ is the sufferer ( _vedak_ ), and whatever suffering arises, one takes it upon himself by saying, 'I am suffering'. But these are all 'mechanical adjustments'. In that if the suffering continues for a certain period of time, the _atma_ will remain within. Then when the suffering becomes excessive, a person will become unconscious and if the suffering goes even beyond this point, it will get out of the body (death).

If we ask 'what happened to the Sheth?', one would say, 'he failed! (his heart failed!).' Hey! He used to 'pass' in the school did he not? But he 'failed' here. These are all 'mechanical adjustments'. When there is tremendous pain and suffocation within, the _atma_ will depart from there. That is what they call a heart attack, no? The other kind is an 'army attack'; it is different and this 'attack' is different. In this attack, the _atma_ will come out of the body. How can this (having heart attacks) be the state of people in India? This state has arisen because people have gone against laws of living.

## The Ego is the cause of all the effects

**Questioner:** Whatever the body suffers, it is the suffered by the soul ( _jiva_ ), right?

**Dadashri:** Yes, any suffering to the body causes suffering to the _jiva_ , because the one who believes, 'this body is mine,' is a _jiva_ and then when he says, 'I am definitely this,' he is bound to suffer the effect.

Now the one, who has Gnan, is not affected by the mind or speech but even he will be affected by the body. Right now if the tooth were to ache, it will let even the Gnani know of it! So, there is 'effective _chetan_ '(the self that experiences the effect) in this body but because there is Gnan (Knowledge of the Self), new causes will not happen. He will settle the account of _karma_ placidly with equanimity.

**Questioner:** So then why does the body not have any pain after the _atma_ leaves?

**Dadashri:** How can the body feel pain after that? Right now, there is still the ego within. That ego claims the body as 'I am this body' and 'this is my body'. And ego verily is the one suffering all this pain. So all this is of the ego.

**Questioner:** But the ego is _jada_ (lifeless).

**Dadashri:** Ego is not _jada_ ; it is _mishrachetan_ (mixture of the Self and non-Self).

**Questioner:** What is this _mishrachetan_ , I did not understand that.

**Dadashri:** _Mishrachetan_ means that there is _chetan_ _bhaav_ (intent of the Self) in it. That _chetan_ and the _jada_ (non-Self) have become a mixture; it is a mixture of the two. And therefore it is called ' _mishrachetan_ '. And the mind is _jada_. The thoughts of the mind are lifeless ( _jada_ ), but the ego is _mishrachetan_. This body is _jada_ but it is slightly touched by _mishrachetan_ , and that is why it is affected by pain.

Besides the main Self, there is also another part. The world does not even know the main Self at all. They believe that what they see is _chetan_ ( _atma_ ). There is no _chetan_ (Self) at all in what they believe to be the _chetan_ ( _atma_ ) ; not even a fraction of it. There is not even enough _chetan_ in it for guilding (coating). That is considered _maya_ (illusion), is it not? Where there is no _chetan_ and yet believing it to be _chetan_ ; that is God's _maya_! And the Gnani Purush has solved that _maya_ (illusion).

**Questioner: '** It is not possible to change this illusion ( _maya_ ) of mine. It is very difficult,' that is what the Lord has said.

**Dadashri:** It is so difficult that it cannot be altered. So then how can it be removed? The Gnani Purush can free you from that illusion ( _maya_ ), because He is free from it, otherwise this illusion will not go away at all, will it?

## How can doubts about the pure Soul be put to rest?

**Questioner:** When the _pudgal_ (non-Self complex) and the Self (the _Atma_ ) are separated, then does One become free?

**Dadashri:** The _pudgal_ has nothing to do with that. When the self realizes its own nature, when it becomes aware of the Self; then it will manifest and once it 'tastes' this (the experience of the Self), the work is done. The Self and the non-Self ( _pudgal_ ) have nothing to do with each other. It is because one has gone so far away from the Self that he says 'I am Chandubhai'.

Throughout the duration of the worldly life state, the Self has remained the Self. It has not moved at all. Even at the final stage, when it has to go to _moksha_ , it is the element of motion ( _gati sahayak tattva_ ) that carries it there. The _Atma_ remains as the _Atma_ in all that. What I am saying is that the _Atma_ is not going to face any difficulties; such is this worldly life times ( _sansarkaad_ ). But it is the ego that arises within; it is the ego that suffers the pains and the pleasures. It is the suffering that has created all this. A wrong belief has arisen. The _Atma_ has not changed at all. The _Atma_ has not become ruined. Here we get rid of one's illusion ( _bhranti_ ) and give him the entire _Atma_.

Someone may ask, 'Is the _Atma_ of an _agnani_ (one who does not have Self-realization) the same at the _Atma_ of Lord Mahavir?' Yes, in every way with reference to _dravya_ (element), _guna_ (attributes) and _paryaya_ (phases). But there is no escape from doubts as long as the ego is there, because the one that has the doubt is the ego itself. So as long as the ego is present, no living being can become free from doubts; his doubts will never go away. Except for the Gnani Purush, no one else's doubts can go away. One can become doubt-free ( _nishanka_ ) when the Gnani Purush uproots his doubts.

## The vision changes, not the Atma

**Questioner:** So then can other elements affect the _Atma_?

**Dadashri:** They do, do they not? It is the other elements that have affected the Self! So when the _Atma_ goes to _Shiddha_ _Kshetra,_ where there are no other elements, there will be no such effect on the Self. As long as other elements are present, they will continue to affect the Self. But the _Atma_ goes to _moksha_ after the Gnani Purush makes it free of effects. However the entire time that it is in the worldly life, it has not become spoiled at all. Except the illusion ( _bhranti_ ) that had arisen, the vision ( _darshan_ ) that had become wrong, the Gnani Purush makes it right and so it becomes free from all effects and goes away to _moksha_.

Now, how did that _darshan_ (vision) become incorrect? When you go to Northern India, you will find many monkeys there. Now what do people there, do to catch them? They take a pot with a very small opening. They put nuts in it and place it under a tree. The monkeys will come down from the tree and stick their hands in the pot to get the nuts. They will slowly squeeze their hand through the opening to get the nuts, but when they make a fist full of nuts, they cannot pull out their hand. Then they start screaming but still they will not let go of the nuts in their fist. But what are they thinking? They think that someone has grabbed their hand from the inside. They know that when they stuck their hand in the pot, it was fine but why can they not pull it out now? So then the monkeys will be overcome with wrong belief. They will have an entangled belief that someone is pulling them from the inside. And so they start screaming but they do not open their fist. In the same way, everyone in the world is screaming but no one lets go of what is in his fist!

## The method for the final solution is different

Usually what is this vision like? If you are sitting like this, then instead of one light, you will see two lights. If your eye were to go this way (pressure on eye), then you will see two lights, will you not? Now, really there is only one but even then you see two. Sometimes when we are drinking tea from a saucer, even though there is only one circle in it, you will see two. Why is that? We see double because we have two eyes. Now, these physical eyes do the seeing, and so do the other eyes (brain areas). But that is _mithya_ _drashti_ – wrong vision. That is why it is showing you everything wrong. If it were to show you the right things, then you would not have any problems; you would be free from all problems. The science of the _Vitarag_ Lords is such that it destroys all pain; the science itself is such that it will liberate you from all pain. This science is like that; it is always working to give results. Therefore after knowing the science, you do not have to do anything, the science will do it all. As long as you are required to do anything, there is involvement of the intellect ( _buddhi_ ). And as long as the intellect is there, there is the presence of the ego. And as long as the ego is there, then even if you want to bring about an end to all this, you will not be able to.

**Questioner:** How can one begin to change this vision?

**Dadashri:** The change in the vision begins to happen when you meet a 'Gnani Purush' and you hear His satsang. Your vision will gradually change as you listen to his satsang. Right now when you listen, your vision changes a little. In this manner, when you become more familiar after a month or two, your vision will change. And if not, then tell the Gnani Purush, 'Sir, please change my vision for me' and he will do it in just one day, just within an hour!

## Gnan opens it up as it is

Winding and entanglement of wrong belief ( _bhranti_ ) has happened. However, nothing has happened to the Self. It is just the way it has always been. Only the veil of ignorance ( _avaran_ ) has come over it, which has given rise to the ego. Then the egoism becomes the doer-sufferer ( _karta-bhokta_ ). It suffers pain and it suffers pleasure.

It is to those with intellect ( _buddhishadi_ ), through the intellect it appears that the Self is the doer and that is why it is the sufferer. Now the whole world is dependent on the intellect. Because as long as there is the 'I am this', as long as there is the ego, one is dependent on the _buddhi_ ; one 'sees' through the intellect. Therefore, the facts cannot be 'seen'. And the Gnanis do not openly disclose 'exact' facts in this world. Nevertheless, 'we' are openly saying to the world that if they want to know through 'exact Gnan', then the _Atma_ has never done any such thing at all. All that you see has not happened at all. It is simply that the belief is wrong. So, if someone can change that wrong belief, then everything will become the way it was. No part of the _Atma_ has become spoilt; the _Atma_ has not been affected at all. When the Gnani Purush changes the wrong belief into the right one, then everything comes to be seen as it is. One comes into the Self and the energies o the Self will blossom.

Just the belief has changed. The _Atma_ will not 'do' any of this. The Self is the _Paramatma_. If the _Atma_ had a single attribute of 'doing' it would never be freed from the worldly life. The _Atma_ is _nirleyp_ (unsmearable), it is _asanga_ (unassociated), provided one can understand this! Otherwise you will not understand what the Lord says. The listener is with intellect ( _buddhishadi_ ) and the speaker is a Gnani (One with full _pragnya_ ), so how can the two connect? The listener is an intellectual and he measures everything through his intellect. The speaker speaks through the measure of Gnan. How can it reach the other person? Then each understands in his language (according to one's own vision).

It is just a wrong belief that has set in. If you look at it exactly, the _atma_ in the entire worldly interacting state had the wrong belief and nothing else. This wrong belief has now gone away, nothing else has happened. _Karma_ do not stick to the _Atma_. The _prakruti_ has arisen due to wrong belief.

Now if you go in front of a mirror, do you have to tell the mirror to show you your face? You do not have to say anything, do you? Why is that? And even then it shows you your 'exact' face, does it not? Does it show you anything with errors? Now, because the mirror is used everyday, its value is not appreciated. However, its great value is worth understanding.

Do you see your shadow inside your home? No. And when you go outside of your home and on the street, you will see your shadow. It will do whatever you do. Now how long does it take to create that shadow? So, this world is only scientific circumstantial evidences. Nothing has happened; nothing has been created. This world is nothing but scientific circumstantial evidences. The Lord has nothing to do in it. Even the _prakruti_ that arises is due to scientific circumstantial evidences and the _prakruti_ is 'effective' (gives effect). This mind, body and speech are 'effective', and it has an effect on the _atma_ , because one has a set wrong belief, 'I am this'. The Gnani Purush changes that wrong belief and then there is no effect.

## In the entire worldly life, prevailing influence of ignorance only

**Questioner:** If _chetan_ ( _atma,_ the self) becomes pure ( _shuddha_ ), does it ever have to come back?

**Dadashri:** It never has to come back. Once the self comes into _shuddhata_ (purity), then the ego ( _ahamkar_ ) is gone, and therefore it does not have to come back at all. As long as there is ego, it sows the seed of 'I did it', from which arises the ego again. As long as one believes 'I did it', the ego will arise again.

**Questioner:** So then the _atma_ must have been impure to begin with?

**Dadashri:** No, it is verily pure.

**Questioner:** So then how did it become impure?

**Dadashri:** When people call you 'Chandulal' 'Chandulal' People give ignorance, which then changes the vision ( _darshan_ ). The entire vision changes and hence there is its pervasive influence.

Say there is a noble man ( _sheth_ ) who speaks nicely all day; he speaks of justice and morality. But what happens to such a person of humility if he drinks half a gallon of alcohol?

**Questioner:** Then he will talk crazy and act crazy.

**Dadashri:** Does that mean that the _sheth_ has become bad? No, it is the influence of the alcohol. That is how the influence of intoxication of the ignorance of the Self ( _agnan_ ) has happened.

**Questioner:** It we were once pure, then how did we become soiled?

**Dadashri:** That _sheth_ was sitting nicely so then how did he become defiled after drinking alcohol? He is the same _sheth_ who then starts talking all kinds of nonsense, 'I am King Sayajirao.' Would you not understand then that he is intoxicated?

**Questioner:** But the _Atma_ was pure to begin with, was it not? Did it not have enough energy of it's own that it became impure ( _ashuddha_ ) again?

**Dadashri:** It is pure, even now, nothing has happened to it. This is just the influence ( _amal_ ). When the influence goes down, you will realize that nothing has happened at all. A day earlier (before Gnan) he was Chandubhai and the next day when the influence (the false belief of 'I am Chandubhai') went down, he becomes _shuddha_ (pure). The next day, within an hour he became pure. If the _Atma_ were to become impure, then how can it become pure within an hour? This influence is just like when one becomes intoxicated with alcohol and then he starts talking; it is just an influence. That is why 'he' has become intoxicated with the belief of, 'I am Chandubhai, I am Chandubhai'; he has been set in the wrong belief.

**Questioner:** You said that the Self has always been pure ( _shuddha_ ), but there is another impure energy that is much more powerful; only then can _Atma_ become impure, is that not so?

**Dadashri:** The _Atma_ has infinite energy and so does the _pudgal_ (non-Self complex). That _pudgal_ energy has bound the whole _Atma_ and does not allow it to become free. Hence the _jada_ too ( _pudgal,_ non-Self complex) has infinte energy. Have you not known about an atom bomb blast? So even _jada_ has infinite energy.

**Questioner:** If the energy of the non-Self complex ( _jada_ ) is considered greater, then can it take away the _Atma_ again!

**Dadashri:** What do you mean by 'again'?

**Questioner:** Why? What if once it has become pure, it gets dragged back into impurity?

**Dadashri:** No, nothing touches it at all, once it becomes pure.

**Questioner:** But was it not pure before? It became impure again did it not?

**Dadashri:** In its main form, it is verily pure. But this _darshan_ that has become spoiled, that _darshan_ will become pure again. That is why the ego comes to an end.

**Questioner:** What I am trying to say is that the _Atma_ was pure once, it was _nirvikari_ (unchangeable).

**Dadashri:** And it is _nirvikari_ even now!

**Questioner:** That is true, but you said that _jada shakti_ ( energy of non Self complex) has bound it.

**Dadashri:** What it means is that the energies of the Self have become covered, and this energy has become mixed with the energy of the non-Self complex ( _jada shakti_ ). And this energy of the non-Self complex has verily taken over the control, so even when the self wants to become free, it cannot. It can become free only when one goes to the Gnani Purush, otherwise it will not become free even for hundreds of thousands of years. It would have been better if it was bound with iron chains. We could at least cut it and free it, but this 'chain' cannot be broken, can it? Just as when a person drinks alcohol, he is overcome by the influence of the alcohol; here there is the influence of the ego. And that is how everything moves along.

**Questioner:** Even though there is influence, but the _Atma_ remains pure, does it not?

**Dadashri:** The _Atma_ is completely indifferent ( _udaseen_ ). The ' _Atma_ ' is indifferent as long as 'one' is in the 'ego'. There is no attachment or abhorrence on the part of the Self in all this. What does 'It' actually say? 'It' says that, 'Come here to me whenever it is convenient for you. When all the account of _karma_ ( _heesab_ ) are cleared, when everything that you like, comes to an end, then come.' Did you understand that?

**Questioner:** What I am trying to say is that if the _Atma_ was pure, that which is pure, no one can make impure. So how did it become impure?

**Dadashri:** It has never become impure. It is only that one of its energies, _Darshan shakti_ (energy of Vision) has become veiled. Just as in the example of the _sheth_ , he is fine and alert but one of his energies gets veiled when he drinks alcohol and so he starts talking nonsense. That is how, one says, 'I am Chandubhai'. People call you Chabdubhai and you believe it to be true, so one of the energies got 'veiled'. And that is why this has gone wrong. It can be cured if someone can remove that intoxication. What else has happened here? Nothing. Right? Whatever happened to the _sheth_ , the same has happened to people. Did the _sheth's_ vision not become veiled? One's understanding gets veiled, does it not? That is what has happened here.

**Questioner:** We can believe that, but how can this main pure Soul become influenced when it has greater energy?

**Dadashri:** But it does not have the energy right now does it? Right now the main Self is indifferent ( _udasin_ ) for sure.

**Questioner:** Has it been indifferent from the very beginning?

**Dadashri:** It is indifferent eternally; it is _vitarag_ (absolutely free from attachment and abhorrence). 'It' says, 'Carry on with everything that you like, as long as you like it but when you stop liking all that, then remember me and the Gnani Purush or take any other support and then come back to me. Wander around as long as you want to and as long as it is convenient. Otherwise come back to me-'the Self'.

If one understands only this much that the _sheth_ changes when he drinks alcohol, one will find the answers to all his questions. The only alcohol that has been given to you is, 'You are Chandubhai. You are Chandubhai'. Just by drinking this 'alcohol,' it has given rise to the ego in 'you,' of 'I am Chandubhai' and that ego continues to arise. So this is just the influence that has arisen and all 'his' talks also from the influence only. He keeps talking under the intoxication and so there is no end to it.

However, the _Atma_ is completely indifferent ( _udasin_ ) all the while it is in the worldly interacting life ( _sansarkada_ ). Now how can people understand such talks? Just half a gallon intoxicates the _sheth_ , whereas this alcohol (ignorance) is an everyday thing. People give him that 'alcohol' from the time he gets up in the morning. Do they not say, 'Come on in Chandubhai, you are my daughter's father-in law...you are my husband...you are his uncle... etc.' and then 'You' too believe it to be so. And so you have become sheerly intoxicated from this 'alcohol'. You are speaking under the influence of this intoxication and then you ask, 'How did I end up drinking this alcohol?' The whole world walks around intoxicated from this alcohol. Now when he drinks the regular alcohol, then people blame the alcohol. Hey! Why are you blaming the alcohol in that?

## Who is the 'doer' of karma?

After knowing all as it is, nothing more needs to be known. Thereafter one becomes the Knower-Seer ( _Gnata-Drashta_ ), in absolute bliss and the Lord of eternal bliss. Thereafter no ownership remains. All the pleasure that you see in the world is projected ( _aropit_ ) pleasure. There is nothing but bliss in the Self, but 'you' projected and believed pleasure to lie in external things. So 'you' get pleasure from it, but there is no pleasure (bliss) in it. Bliss in within one's own Self.

**Questioner:** So then, who removes that illusion ( _bhranti_ )?

**Dadashri:** The Gnani Purush can remove that illusion.

**Questioner:** Say I take Gnan from you and go home. Then tomorrow, when I wake up, the wrong belief that is within, will make me do the say thing again and again, telling me, 'no, you have to do it this way, otherwise you will not be able to do any work.'

**Dadashri:** No, it is not like that. Then the light ( _prakash_ ) will take over. When the sheth has a few drinks at night, what does he say? He will say, 'I am King so and so.' Why does he say such a thing? Has he gone mad? No. An illusion has arisen over him due to the influence of the alcohol.

**Questioner:** Who put him in this predicament; the _Atma_ or the illusion? And can the _Atma_ not control it?

**Dadashri:** The Self has nothing to do with it. All this is the doing of the ego. The one who is suffering it, is the ego. These pains that are suffered; are also suffered by the ego and the pleasure that is being suffered is also being suffered by the ego. And when the ego comes to an end, that is when You become the 'Self', and become worthy of liberation. This worldly life ( _sansaar_ ) exists because of this ego. Attachment-abhorrence ( _raag-dwesh_ ) is because of the ego. And through the ego 'you' are the 'doer' of _karma_. When the ego becomes non-existent, then 'You' will no longer be the 'doer' of _karma_. Right now, 'you' are the doer of _karma_ and that is why 'you' are the sufferer. That doer-ship arises for you out of illusion.

So the _sheth_ was not talking nonsense as long as he did not drink alcohol. But after drinking, he starts talking nonsense. If he curses someone, then that _karma_ is done in the intoxication of the alcohol; it is done in illusion. But he will have to suffer the consequences, won't he? Is that other person likely to let him go? He will fight with him that, 'you were drunk and you were cursing me out,' will he not? So that is how one has to suffer these _karma_. And when he becomes the 'doer' of _karma_ ; then he gives support to that _karma_. 'I did it', he will say. Oh my! You don't have the independent control over your bowel movements and you say 'I am doing all this'! That is why one has bound all these _karma_ and then he has to keep on wandering in all the four life worlds. When one understands it as it is, from the Gnani Purush, then the wandering will come to an end.

## In whom does the impurity arise?

**Questioner:** No matter how careful one is, why do impure phases ( _paryaya_ ) arise from the _Atma_?

**Dadashri:** But what benefit do you get out of this?

**Questioner:** Do I not get bound by _karma_?

**Dadashri:** If impure phases phases arise from you then you will be bound, will you not? They do not arise from the 'Self' at all. There are no impure phases in the _Atma_ at all. So if you want to understand it as it is, then all these pure and impure phases arise within you only.

I will tell you the main fact. There are two kinds of _atma_. One is the main Self ( _muda_ Atma) and because of that Self, another _atma_ , the _vyavahar_ _atma_ (worldly interacting self) has arisen. The main Self is the _nischaya_ _Atma_ (Self). It has not changed at all. It is exactly the way it was and the other _atma_ has arisen associated with it (by Its presence). Just as you go in front of a mirror, will you not see two Chandubhai?

**Questioner:** Yes, I will see two.

**Dadashri:** Similarly, this _vyavahar_ _atma_ has arisen. We have called it ' _pratishthit_ _atma_ '. One has done his own _pratistha_ (life instillation) in it. Therefore, if you still keep doing the _pratistha_ (instillation) of 'I am Chandubhai, I am Chandubhai,' then you will create a new _pratisthit_ _atma_ for the next life. If you believe this worldly interaction ( _vyavahar_ ) to be true, then a new ' _vyavahar_ _atma_ (worldly interacting self) _'_ will be created. _Nischaya_ Self (the main Self) has remained the same. Now if one 'touches' It, then He is blessed. Right now one is touched by only the _vyavahar_ _atma_.

This is the ego that has arisen. People say, 'My _atma_ is in pain. My _atma_ has gone bad.' Hey you! If the _atma_ has become spoilt, it will never improve. Anything that has the energy to become spoiled cannot be improved. If it can spoil here, then it can do the same in _Siddha_ _Kshetra_ (abode of liberated Souls). The Self is not like that. The Self, here is the same as it is in the _Siddha_ _Kshetra_. But that is the _nischaya_ Self (the main Self) and it is the _vyavahar_ _atma_ (worldly interacting self) that has been spoiled. The worldly interaction ( _vyavahar_ ) has become spoiled and it is the worldly interaction that needs to be purified. If one does not meet a 'Gnani' then the worldly interaction ( _vyavahar_ ) has to be made _shubha_ (good and helpful to others), and if he meets a Gnani, then the _vyavahar_ is to be made _shuddha_ (pure). That is all one needs to do. Do you understand?

Therefore there are no spoiled phases ( _paryaya_ ) coming from the Self. All the spoiled phases are coming from the _vyavahar_ _atma_ ; the worldly self. The word _paryaya_ is referred to the phases are the subtlemost. The subtlest ( _sookshmatar_ ) phases are called _paryaya_. All these are gross situations ( _avastha_ ); they are impure circumstances ( _ashuddha_ _avastha_ ); they are gross circumstances. Is this circumstance of 'I am Chandubhai' any ordinary circumstance?

## The worldly self mistaken as the eternal Self

**Questioner:** Are the attributes of the worldly self ( _vyavahar_ _atma_ ) and the main Self ( _nischaya_ _atma_ ) different?

**Dadashri:** They would be different of course! _Nishchaya atma_ means the main Self.

**Questioner:** There is one _atma_ but different attributes, is that what it is?

**Dadashri:** It is not like that. If a man who is a lawyer trades in dried fruits, people will say 'this is the dry fruits merchant'. But in the courts, he is called an attorney. When he pleads for his clients, he will be called as attorney, no? In the same manner, if you remain absorbed in the worldly activities, then you are called as the worldly self ' _vyavahar atma_ ', and if you are absorbed in the Self _nischaya_ , then you are the _nischaya Atma_. Mainly, You are only That, but it depends upon the activity in which you are absorbed.

So people have believed the worldly interacting self ( _vyavaharik_ _atma_ ) to be the _nischaya Atma_ (the main Self). They refer to it as ' _vyavaharik atma_ ' but in their mind they believe it to be the main _Atma_. They believe 'this' is the Self because if not, then how can I speak? How can I walk? The walking, talking, studying the _Vedas_ , the 'I read and I remember what I read'; all these, one believes to be the Self; the _Atma_ cannot be anything else. All that is nothing but the shadow of the Self. If you follow this shadow of the _Atma_ , you will not find the real _Atma_ in a hundred thousand years. The science of Akram openly and clearly questions, 'why are you hanging on to the shadow?' In spite of this, the _kramic_ path is not wrong. But they believe the shadow to be the Self itself. What I am saying is, 'believe the shadow to be the shadow and the _Atma_ to be the _Atma_ '.

**Questioner** : The greatest mistake is in this belief.

**Dadashri** : Everything is wrong when there is a mistake in the belief to start with. What else remains then?

## In the formed world of discharge, bondage through belief

**Questioner** : So, is one the _pratisthit_ _atma_ and the other a _Shuddhatma_?

**Dadashri:** _Nischaya_ Self is _Shuddhatma_ and the one that is in worldly interactions, is the _pratisthit_ _atma_. That is because you do its _pratistha_. Now if there is a man who has not attained Self-realization, (Gnan) and his name is Chandubhai, it is his past _karma_ effect when he says 'I am Chandubhai...I am his uncle, etc.' He is saying it as an effect of that _karma_. What was previously in the form of planning ( _yojna_ ) is now unfolding as an effect ( _rupak_ ). Now there is no problem if it has come into effect, but he has the same belief all over again, and so he sows seeds of new _karma_. That is how one keeps doing the _pratishtha_ (instilling life), he does the _pratishtha_ of 'I am this body'. So a body is formed again; an _murti_ (body form) arises. This is how one keeps giving rise to a new _murti_ , by repeated _pratistha_. And the old _murti_ is destroyed. It will continue to give fruits (effect) because of the _pratistha_ that was done.

It is just the belief of the _pratishthit_ _atma_. It is because of the wrong belief that has arisen that one keeps doing the _pratishtha_ of 'I am this...I am this...' The old _pratistha_ is destroyed and the new one arises when he says, 'I am Chandubhai,' 'I am his uncle,' and 'I had this thought.' Now, this is _ashrav_ (unfolding) of past _pratishtha._ Later this _ashrav_ then discharges. During the time of discharging, it again forms the exact same image and then it discharges. Now what does the Gnan that has been given to 'You', say? It says that when one says, 'I am Chandubhai... I am his uncle...,' it is of (from) the past _pratishtha_. But he has Gnan (Self-realization) now and therefore the belief of 'I am really Chandubhai' has gone away. Therefore 'He' does not do any new _pratishtha_. And that is why it is considered as _samvar_ (no new _karma_ is charged); no binding of _karma_ happens while discharge ( _nirjara_ ) of past _karma_ continues. What is considered as bondage ( _bandha_ )? Bondage happens when one does not have Gnan. So whatever _pratishtha_ one does, the same _pratishtha_ arises again.

Now a person may say, 'of course one should steal', and this person steals, takes bribes, talks nicely to people and tells them 'I'll get your work done. I'll do it all for you.' He takes a 1000 rupees bribe from someone; all this is being done is the _pratishthit_ _atma_. This was the planning that has now come into effect. Whatever he says, it is all an effect. The fact that he meets the other person is an effect and taking a 1000 rupee bribe is also an effect. The fact that he takes bribe and also his intent to take bribes; it is all 'decided'. And that too he takes bribes, willingly. But then as he takes the bribe, he does not have Gnan, but from within he feels, 'I am taking all these bribes but I am the one who is going to have to suffer the consequences. I should not take bribes'. In doing this, the planning of 'bribes should not be taken' is being created for the next life's _pratishthit_ _atma_. So in his next life he will not take bribes. Do you understand this blue print of the form that will arise?

Now there are many people who do not take bribes. A man's wife tells him, 'All your school friends live in fancy homes; only you are living in a rented house.' So then he begins to think, 'Am I making a mistake or what?' He believes in his principles, he has faith in his principles and knows that they are not wrong. He knows that his principle is the way to happiness. He knows all that, but when his wife says this to him, he feels, 'I am making a mistake in not taking bribes'. A negative _buddhi_ (intellect) takes over, and he feels, 'I have to do his work anyway so what is wrong in accepting the bribe?' So then he creates an inner intent of accepting bribes. So then he tells the other person, 'I will do your work,' and the person says, 'I will pay you 500 rupees.' But when the man comes to pay him, he cannot accept the money. He gets very nervous and worried about taking the money. This is because in his past life he had done _pratistha_ of 'accepting bribe is wrong and that one should not accept them at all.' So it would not allow him to accept it. He would have told the man to bring the money, but the moment he puts his hands on it, he becomes nervous and starts to tremble. It (past pratistha) will not allow him to even touch the money. He cannot take even a penny from that, but at the same time, he sows a seed of, 'I want to accept bribes,' for his next life. He does not accept bribes in this life but sows a seed for taking bribes in his next life. What kind of a seed one must be sowing in this vast world? And how would one know what he is getting trapped into? Do you understand all that? Is there not a principle? Is it not a systematic principle?

**Questioner:** Yes.

**Dadashri:** Here they do planning of five years. They decide that in the first year they will build dams in certain places and they will do such and such things in another area. One decides all that then he puts it on paper; a blueprint is prepared on paper. When that part is all sanctioned, he presents that plan for it to give its effect (to materialize). When that is done, the plan is considered to be 'born.' From there on, this plan begins to take shape. That is how the plan is created first in one life and it takes shape in the next life. But while it is taking shape in this life, a new plan is being created that, this is how it should be done...this is how it should be. That is how this routine continues. So this is a very principled phenomenon.

## Only the living Gnani can bring the facts to light

Now you will not find this kind of information in any books. So how can man change? What you find in books are things like, you can put salt, chillies, turmeric and jaggery in the soup, but there is nothing about now much and in what proportion. So a person cannot understand from within, can he? And that is why the world believes the _pratishthit_ _atma_ to be the real Self and then they are trying to make it still. And there is nothing wrong with that either. One should make it still. A person will get peace and happiness from it. It is still at night during sleep, but one attains more calmness by making it still during the day. But that happiness is such that it goes away the moment it loses its stillness and goes back to the way it was before. Now if he were to realize at the same time that the main Self is always still, then he can make the adjustments. People are unaware of the facts about the Self. They have accepted the _pratishthit_ _atma_ to be the real Self, but in reality it is not. The _pratishthit_ _atma_ is _pudgal_ (non-Self complex); there is no Self ( _chetan_ ) in it at all.

There is no Self in what the world believes to be the self. This is my own discovery. I say it as I see it. You will not find this in any scriptures. In scriptures, when they talk about improving the _atma_ , they refer to the _pratisthit_ _atma_. Should there not be some systematic process? Is there not a systematic process for improving? People are not aware of the systematic process outlined in the scriptures. It has been shown very subtly. And it has been shown through words, has it not? It is like describing Bombay and saying when you go to Bombay, it is like this; Juhu beach is like this or like that. But that is all in words. How do you benefit from that? So what do the scriptures show you? They show you through words, not through experience. A person cannot get experience through scriptures, can he? So without the presene of a Gnani Purush, none of this can be brought to light.

## Indescribable experiences of the original element, the Self

**Questioner:** Please describe your experience at the time, when this Gnan manifested in 1958, while you were sitting on a bench at Surat Station.

**Dadashri:** How much can I tell you of the experience? All I can say is that I experienced bliss. I forgot the world and I saw, 'what the world is, who runs it, who the doer is, who you are, who I am'. All the detailed were known, but I am describing you all that only in words. You will never know the real thing because there are no words for it. It cannot be described completely through words. I am explaining to you externally with whatever words I can. But it is not the actual thing, is it? You can appreciate it only when you reach that state and experience it yourself as to what it is.

The _Atma_ is a subtlest ( _sukshmattam_ ) thing. Its external regions are subtler ( _shushmattar_ ). 'We' had seen the _Atma_ at its subtlest level. Now speech does not exist at the subler level. So words come to a stop there. Speech ends here. So I have to tell You to experience it for Yourself. That is why, through experience it has been said that you cannot know it through knowing but You can, through experiencing it. _Nivedo_ ( _moksha_ ) also through experience only.

## Seeing the Self only through the Self

**Questioner:** But Dada, it has been said that 'see the _atma_ through the _atma_.' What do they mean when they say 'do _darshan_ of _atma_ through the _atma_?'

**Dadashri:** 'Through _atma_ ' means you have to see the 'Self' through the ' _vyavahar_ _atma'_ (the worldly self). But bring a _nimit_ into it too. The _nimit_ , who has 'seen' the Self. 'He' will make the necessary adjustments so 'You' can reap the fruit. But if you try to see it yourself, you will attain nothing. That is because your vision itself is through the senses ( _indriyagamya_ ), is it not? Whereas, you need something that is beyond the senses ( _atiindriyagamya_ ). Until the 'Gnani Purush' liberates 'You' from the _indriyagamya_ and gives you the vision of the part that is beyond the senses, you will not be able to see it. That is why 'we' change your vision.

## The vision of the goldsmith is always on the pure gold

If you have a gold ring that has gone to the goldsmith many times, the gold will become impure (purity content gets less). People will say, 'Why do you wear this ring? This gold has become impure.' So then you have to think about what you are going to do with the gold that has become impure. When you take that ring to a goldsmith, will he get upset? Will he ask you why you have made the gold so impure? Will he tell you, you ruined the ring? No, he is not there to scold you. He is there to purify the impure gold. Everyone will bring him gold that has become impure.

So he sits down to purify it. He too is going to get a few rupees out of it. Then he starts polishing it. He does not see how impure it is, he does not care about the other metals in it, but he will look at the gold content in it. He will tell you the proportion of gold in the content. He will tell you that there is one part gold and two parts impurity. This is how he makes his deductions. Then if you tell him, I am not interested in its composition, just make me a ring for my son from whatever gold you can get out of it.' So then he will put it in acid. Will the knower of that (properties of gold) do it for you or not?

**Questioner:** Knower (expert) of it will do it.

**Dadashri:** What if you do not have the knower (goldsmith) and you give it to a blacksmith? The blacksmith will tell you, 'Take it away from here and bring me some iron. Why did you bring this gold to me?' So if you give it to the blacksmith, he will refuse to do anything. If you give it to a businessman and ask him, 'Please can you do this much for me?' He will tell you, 'Why don't you take it to a goldsmith, why did you bring it here?' So if you want to purify the _atma_ , that has become impure, you have to go to a 'Gnani Purush.' He has all the tools and he knows the attributes of the Self ( _Atma_ ) as well as the attributes of _anatma_ (non-Self). Only the one who knows the attributes of the Self can separate it from the non-Self; no one else can.

## The scientific differences between the real and the relative

**Questioner:** The puzzle and the questions that arise, must be of the _pratishthit_ _atma_ , are they not?

**Dadashri:** Yes, that is all of the _pratishthit_ _atma_. It is the _prakruti_ that we refer to as _pratishthit_ _atma_. But if we refer to it as ' _prakruti'_ , then people will not understand it properly. That is why 'we' call it as ' _pratishthit_ _atma'_.

_Pratishthit_ _atma_ is the 'relative _atma_ ' and the other is the ' _Shuddhatma_ '. _Shuddhatma_ is the 'real _atma_.' And the 'relative _atma_ ' is a 'mechanical _atma_.' It is _puran_ - _galan_ by nature, i.e. it is subject to the phenomenon of filling and emptying. You eat from here ( _puran_ ) and then you have to relieve yourself in the morning ( _galan_ ). You take water from here ( _puran_ ) and then you have to go to the bathroom ( _galan_ ), you inhale ( _puran_ ) and so you have to exhale ( _galan_ ). So there are only two things, _puran-galan_ (intake and output) and the _Shuddhatma_.

**Questioner:** What is the difference between the 'real Self' and the 'relative self'?

**Dadashri:** The 'relative self' has arisen out of one's own wrong belief. One comes into the real Self when that wrong belief fractures. The 'Gnani Purush' fractures that wrong belief and gives You the right belief. That is called ' _samayak_ _darshan'_. So the conviction ( _pratiti_ ) of one's own pure Self sets in.

**Questioner:** Is there a difference between the ego and the _pratisthit_ _atma_?

**Dadashri:** No. The pratisthit _atma_ itself is the ego. 'You' did the _pratishtha_ of, 'I am the body. I am Chandulal, I am the father of this boy, I am his brother.' How many kinds of 'I...I...I...I's' are there?

## The Gnani illuminates the siddhant naturally

**Questioner:** Whenever people talk about the _atma_ , is it the _pratisthit_ _atma_ they are talking about?

**Dadashri:** Yes, it is the _pratisthit_ _atma_ that they believe to be the Self, the main Self. But that is a wrong belief, but they do not know that, do they? They proceed by believing the pratisthit _atma_ to be, 'that is my _atma_.' One has to proceed by removing each and every sub-atomic particle of illusory attachment ( _moha_ ) and that is (process of) the whole _kramic_ path. In the _kramic_ path, they refer to the _pratisthit_ _atma_ , as the Self, whereas in the Akram path, it is the real Self that we call as our Self. So, there is a difference in the vision ( _drashti_ ) between the _kramic_ path and the Akram path. They are right in the _kramic_ path, that _atma_ does experience the suffering. 'All the _atmas_ have these attributes of suffering', that is what they say in the _kramic_ path, whereas we in the Akram path, we call that suffering, the suffering of the _pratishthit_ _atma_. What we refer to as the _pratisthit_ _atma_ , people refer to as _vyavahar_ _atma_. It is this _vyavahar_ _atma_ that they believe to be the main Self. And it is this _atma_ they are trying to make still and free of _karma_. So this _atma_ is bound by _karma_ and they believe that this _atma_ is to be freed from _karma_. However the main Self is not like that. It is free of _karma_ , except, 'you' are not aware of it. You need that awareness.

What we are saying is that, 'you' do not have this awareness. You have this wrong belief. You believe the 'Self' to be where it is not and where the 'Self' really is, you are not aware of that. So, realize where the Self really is, and if you do, then 'You' are free from everything. This is the ignorance you have to remove. Otherwise, 'your' ignorance will not go away for millions of years.

There are twenty-five kinds of _mohas_ (illusory attchments), which get charged and discharged. As a rule, they will discharge, but due to the wrong belief, they continue to be charged again. When 'we' give 'You' Gnan; the charging stops and only the discharge remains.

That is why 'we' have given this new word, ' _pratisthit_ _atma'_. The Lord has told people about this, but they did not understand it. Therefore, 'we' had to put the words ' _pratisthit_ _atma'_ in, without changing anything that the Lord has said, so that people can understand in their own language, right? What would you do if you do not understand?

## The beginning and the end of the world in the Gnani's Gnan

That from which the world arises and ends, is called ' _adhisthan'_. One may question, why is this ' _adhisthan'_ not disclosed in the scriptures? But the answer is, no, the Tirthankaras have not left out anything in disclosing. But it is a different matter if you do not come across it.

So what did 'we' say? What has this world arisen from? It has arisen from the _pratisthit_ _atma_ , and it also ends, dies, into it again. The main Self has nothing to do with it. It is just a vision of the non-Self ( _vibhavik_ _drashti_ ) that has arisen.

## When the vision becomes pure, it becomes absorbed in the pure

One is a _pratisthit_ _atma_ and the other is the main Self. _Pratisthit_ _atma_ is a mechanical _atma_. It can only survive when you eat and drink, and it will stop if you stop breathing. People do the ego of, 'I am doing this' in whatever the _pratisthit_ _atma_ does, and so a new _pratisthit_ _atma_ is created for the next life.

Nothing has happened to the main Self. People have given this gift of ignorance ( _agnan_ ) and therefore all these mental impressions ( _sanskars_ ) have arisen. And so from the moment one is born, people will start calling 'him' 'Chandu, Chandu'. Now that child does not know what they are doing, does he? But people keep reinforcing that in him; they give him such mental impressions ( _samskar_ ). Then 'he' really starts believing, 'I am Chandu.' Then as he grows up, he starts saying, 'This is my _kaka_ (father's brother)...this is my _mama_ (mother's brother).' This is how ignorance ( _agnan_ ) is given and the illusions arise. What happens in all this is that one of the energies of the Self, the _darshan_ _shakti_ (the energy to see and understand), gets veiled. All this has arisen because of this veiled _darshan_ _shakti_. When this _darshan_ (Vision) becomes uncovered again, one goes back to his own Self. This vision ( _darshan_ ) has become _mithya_ (deluded, wrong) and so he believes that pleasure lies in worldly things. This belief goes away when the _darshan_ (Vision) becomes unveiled. Only the _darshan_ (vision) has become veiled, spoiled and nothing else. 'We' change that vision for you.

**Questioner:** So only a wrong belief has arisen for the _Atma_?

**Dadashri:** The Self does not have the wrong belief; it is its _darshan_ (vision) that has become veiled. The whole _darshan_ of the main Self has been veiled. Because of the external 'gift' of the ignorance; people give you this _agnan_ (ignorance) the moment you are born. People are ignorant themselves, and then they make others the same. So then you too start believing and so your _darshan_ gets veiled. Because of this veiled _darshan_ , you say, 'This is my father-in-law and this is my uncle.' I call this a wrong belief.

## One's salvation is through the awareness of the Self

**Questioner:** So does the _atma_ itself have to work towards its own liberation, is that what it is?

**Dadashri:** The 'self' itself has to do liberation of the 'self' means that the main _Atma_ is the element that is already liberated . But in all this, the _atma_ that we refer to as the _pratishthit_ _atma_ ; it is not the main _atma_. The main _atma_ is already free, but _pratishthit_ _atma_ means the _atma_ one believes the self to be. When that 'self' comes to know (experience) that 'my Self form is the Gnan (Knower) _Darshan_ (Vision) and _Charitra_ (Conduct)', then the self too becomes liberated. So the self does _purushartha_ in this manner for its own liberation and that is when it happens! But one has to meet a Gnani Purush, who will give him Knowledge of his own real Self and only then can he make the _purushartha_. And that is when he attains salvation!

Jai Sat Chit Anand

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