Welcome to the 'Explore the
Circular Economy Show' by the
Ellen MacArthur Foundation where
we talk, discuss, debate
investigate the transition away
from a linear take-make-waste
economy to one that designs out
waste and pollution, keeps
products and materials in use
and regenerates natural systems.
My name is Seb I'm the co host
of this show and part of the
learning team here at the
foundation. And today I'm joined
by a guest co host. Who are you?
Hello, I'm Tansy. I'm part of
the editorial team at the
foundation.
Welcome Tansy and for any of our viewers who
are watching who aren't familiar
with the different regions of
the UK, Tansy is from the north
of the UK. So for anyone who
thinks the North is just
something from Game of Thrones,
the North is also very
prototypically represented by
the way Tansy speaks, so do
listen to her carefully during
the next half hour. So it's
really a pleasure to introduce
our guest today, who is Joss
Bleriot. Joss was actually part
of the Foundation when it was
founded in 2010. And has so so
has worn many hats during that
time. He's currently the
Executive Lead, has been for a
while of Institutions,
Governments and Cities done work
in policy especially welcome
Joss.
Thank you, Seb. I thought you
were going to make a comment
about my many hats being the
cause of my loss of hair.
Not wearing a hat today.
I'm not no, very observant of
you.
Well, thank you for getting
involved in the conversation,
Joss, we're really looking
forward to discussing this. And
I think to start, obviously,
alongside the health
implications of COVID-19, the
pandemic has revealed a lot of
vulnerabilities in our economic
system, and it's highlighted the
need for a more resilient
economic model. So I thought we
should start maybe by talking
about those exposed
vulnerabilities, before we
discuss how they could be
mitigated. And so what areas in
particular do you see that have
been particularly exposed at
this time?
Yeah, I think that what we've
seen is really the the typical
efficiency driven systems being
challenged by the fact that once
something is super optimised, if
there's a small disruption, the
whole system can actually
collapse. So it might be a bit
dramatic to frame it this way.
But the fact is that when it
comes to availability of parts
for medical equipment that's
been very stringent or we've
seen disruptions in the food
system as well. You know, very
hastily implemented lockdowns in
cities leading to shortages and
the fact that the system relies
on centralised production
centres of production that are
sometimes quite far away.
They're concentrated as well.
And they rely on transport and
open borders and the fluidity in
the system. And all of this, of
course, we knew it's not
something that comes out of the
blue, it's just that this this
the crisis because it was very
sudden, and it took a lot of
people by surprise, really
brought them to the centre
stage. So circular economy
certainly has a lot to offer in
that context. But it's also
really important to note that
that debate and that discussion
was pre existing the crisis it
doesn't come as a revelation you
know, the need for a system
reset was established
policymakers and business alike
had taken it on board started
investing in it. And I think the
job now is to say, okay, within
the circular economy solutions
framework, what are the most
relevant? What are the most
promising solutions to the
crisis that we have at hand?
I actually think you said
something quite profound there
Joss in the sense that it's good
to observe or useful to observe
that our economy is kind of
based on efficiencies of scale,
almost. And, and and in some
ways, you said, we all kind of
aware of it, but sometimes we're
not as actively aware of it as
we might be in the sense that
that does make things that that
those efficiencies are also
quite fragile, and that and that
the COVID or the pandemic is
kind of a revelation of that or
just it just reveals what
already existed and we already
knew about. You, I mean, I want
to just so you mentioned a
little bit that that we're going
to talk a little bit more in
this conversation about building
back better or like the some of
the conversations that are
beginning to happen about how
investment and things like the
circular economy might be
reinvigorated. But it's also
worth saying there's quite a lot
of momentum has been building up
already to this point on the
circular economy that exists
existed before before March. I
don't know if you want to just
say a little bit about some of
the things we've already started
seeing in terms of energy behind
the circular economy transition.
Yes, sure. And, you know, one of
the big announcements around
circular economy this spring
was, of course, the publication
of the European Circular Economy
Action Plan, which is actually
the second one. And the whole
process started in 2012 with the
European resource efficiency
platform, you know, we're almost
coming up to 10 years of
building up to that. 10 years of
economic rationale. 10 years of
businesses and pioneering
frontrunners investing in those
solutions, seeing the economic
attractiveness seeing that model
as a way to bring
competitiveness and seeing this
model as a way to reignite
creativity through design
strategies, new business models,
etc. So that that conversation
was already taking place. And
the fact that the Commission
published, the Circular Economy
Action Plan in the middle of the
pandemic is absolutely only an
accident. This all of this was
on the menu already. So I think
it's really important because
building on that established
logic means that there's less of
a ambiguity building around, oh,
should we put this on the back
burner because actually, there's
a more pressing matter? No, it
is the matter. It's at the heart
of the transition. So some
elements may be more relevant
than others, and that's fine. We
can find the most adapted ones,
the ones that bring about the
most obvious and immediate
benefits, but the logic of that
system reset was sound and it's
sound now and some of it is even
more relevant than than ever
So, so go on Tansy.
Sorry. Yeah, so, you know, it's
become more relevant than ever
and, and obviously we've seen a
lot of brittleness in supply
chains. I wonder if we can like
dive a little bit deeper into
circular economy and what
solutions it might provide to
make those supply chains less
brittle and support businesses
as they transition.
Yeah, I think if we go back to
the example of manufacturing and
take the medical equipment as an
example, lack of availability of
spare parts has been a critical
point, the fact that some
outlets did have the theoretical
capacity to repair some of that
stuff remanufacturing and make
it more available and talking
about ventilators for one thing.
The fact that some products were
actually designed in a way that
makes them really hard to either
refurbish, repair or
remanufacture totally hinders
the efficiency of the system.
And when there's a crucial need
for those spare parts, and those
spare parts are made on the
other side of the world, and
there's no way for them to get
to the users, then we have a big
problem, a life and death
question, actually, in many
cases. So the logic of saying,
we're going to look at design as
a strategy that makes the spare
parts available that makes
repurposing easy that makes
shifting one production facility
from making one specific product
to another one. We've seen that
with the automotive industry,
some companies have started
making ventilators because they
were flexible. They were
adaptive. They had that kind of
modern production tool. And of
course, that's only one example.
But it means also that if you
have a whole industry that is
built on those principles, and
that can adapt, it creates value
in the long run, you can shift
your production you can really
be in tune with the the needs
and the constraints of the
economy as it evolves. And it
means that you're not relying on
one product alone, you know,
some companies only make one
spare part for one type of
equipment, you know, and these
things are really risky. I mean,
in terms of risk, and if
financial analysts will look at
this and, and completely freak
out, if you think that your
model relies on getting one type
of product to one user alone,
then of course, you're extremely
exposed. If the efficiency of
the system which is great, by
the way, and to go back to your
point Seb, we tend to forget
that it's brittle because when
it works, it works extremely
well. So we get that sense of
security as well, but investing
in design strategies and
production strategies that
enable that repurposing that
enables the second principle of
the circular economy to
effectively be implemented,
which is keeping materials and
products in the system in order
to safeguard a) the ability of
the economy to function and b)
that resource, that feedstock
keeping it available at high
quality means that you also
displace the need for new virgin
materials. And that in turns
displays the negative
externalities associated with
their production.
I guess I mean, I guess in just
as a reminder to our audience,
it's in this throughout this
conversation, we're kind of
sharing perspectives here. We
don't have all the answers. We
don't you know, this isn't this
isn't a future gazing exercise.
This is just a point of view
based on the research we've done
historically on circular
economy, and some of the things
that we're beginning to see and
some of the conversations we're
beginning to have now, and with
I guess, with that in mind Joss
my question would be, what are
some of the kind of immediate
opportunities or obligations
even to build a circular economy
in the aftermath as we come as
we start to see now, serious
signs of countries and economies
coming out of the kind of
lockdown phase of the pandemic?
I think that it's been picked up
by by policymakers. And because,
of course, the situation means
that the role of government is
increased because there is a
need for rescue packages and big
intervention if given the scale
of the issue. But things around
making sure that the the
industry can still work and is
able to be adapted and flexible
is is really critical. And
making sure we have food systems
that are a bit re localised,
that are more focusing on the
actual practices and making sure
that you have an agricultural
system which is decentralised.
That means that the access is
possible that you don't
necessarily rely on workforce
that comes from abroad
seasonally, which at the moment,
it can't happen. So there has
been a lot of worry around the
fact that some of this season's
crops is going to be lost simply
because there's no one to pick
them. So looking at all these
strategies that mean you have a
more adaptive resilient system
at regional, local municipal
level, which doesn't mean that
of course, it's the end of
globalisation. It's just a
different one is having those
nodes of circularity that build
the resilience, and still rely
on these international exchanges
when necessary. But when the
international system is
challenged, that means that your
economy can still continue
functioning. And that might be a
question of now investing in R&D
for the right materials, the
circular economy needs
circularity compatible materials
as well. And that's an
innovation prospect. They can be
about looking at the building
stock the existing building
stock and saying there's a need
for renovation anyway, why don't
we focus on this invest in
circular economy strategies for
the renovation of the housing
stock, which by the way, of
course, the factor is a local
activity. You can't offshore
that, you can't send the
building away to be refurbished
somewhere else. So all of these
things are coming to the... are
rising in prominence. And
they've been picked up on by, by
policymakers and businesses
alike. Now when you see, for
instance, and I'm going back to
this example, because it's
probably the best documented
one, but that the
remanufacturing of medical
equipment is a market that is
set to grow by 10% each year.
I... this is staggering. There's
a massive economic opportunity
and that logic can be applied to
automotive, heavy industry, big
equipment, but also to
electronics, you know, if we
have that facility and that
capability on our doorstep, if
these things can be taken apart,
refurbished, recovered, and then
properly repurposed or upgraded
where the actual users are, that
means that you cut some of the
risks associated with the global
supply chains as well. So it's
it's finding the right balance
between keeping a healthy global
economy and making sure that you
have more resilience nationally,
regionally, locally.
Yeah, that's really interesting.
And and you picked up on the
food system, when when you were
discussing the different
examples there. And I think,
obviously food has been
highlighted as a system that,
you know, we really need to be
flexible. We need it to work for
people, particularly at this
time. So I wonder if we could
talk a little bit more about
that system in particular, and
how circular economy could help
to create a more resilient
shockproof food system, but also
how some strategies that are
emerging from the pandemic
policies like the Farm to Fork
initiative in the EU, and also
some business commitments that
are kind of coming out of all of
this, and how how that system
might change in the near future.
To be more resilient.
It's really interesting because
it's a it's It's an emotional
topic and people are very close
to it. And to go back to what
Seb was saying, we always also
tend to forget sometimes that
the efficiency as we know it and
the the big decentralised
productions, that means that
everything's available anytime
we started questioning that as
well, and people and a lot of
opinion polls, especially in the
UK have shown that actually
people have grown more attuned
to where the stuff that they eat
comes from, how it's been
produced, and its impact on the
ecosystems as well. And that it
kind of was interesting at the
beginning of the lockdown people
marvelling at the fact that
biodiversity and nature was
coming back to to claim the land
in a way and it made a lot of
people feel really good. But
then if if you couple that with
the fact that there's a big
worry about the impact of the
food we eat has on the
environment. You think that
there's more, the idea is more
palatable to a lot of people. So
regenerative agriculture that
actually invests in ecosystem
health as well, that builds
natural capital, in line with
the third, circular economy,
fundamental principle is really
key. Because if you're going to
have food production on your
doorstep, because it's, it makes
more sense. You also want that
production close to you to be
conducive to a better
environment. You don't want
necessarily a big industrial
farm just in order to have your
milk every morning. There's
something which is bringing the
production and consumption
aspect of the system much closer
to people's mind. And that
resonates with ideas that have
been pushed forward. You
mentioned the farm to fork
initiative, which looks at the
rise in percentage of
organically farmed land, but
also reduction of pesticides and
that was in the pipeline before
COVID happened, but it made it
even more a center of interest,
suddenly people start feeling
passionate about this. And so
the all of these things
actually, which were really good
ideas to begin with, they
resonate even more. And also
regenerative agriculture by the
way, which means that you're
going to close those nutrient
cycles that you're not going to
have run off you, you're going
to use less fertilisers, less
water, but also you're able to
sequester carbon in the soil.
And that's the beauty of all
these strategies is that they
are conducive to a low carbon
economy as well. It's not a
question of saying, Do we now
prioritise COVID recovery at the
expense of the fight against
climate change, all these
strategies are conducive as
well. It's a double win. And
that's where really, the
systemic shift is gaining
traction, because it's not a
trade off.
And there is an art..., we're...
a member of our team has written
an article on our blog platform,
blog, platform, medium circulate
news medium.com/circulatenews.
On exactly this topic of how do
we build a healthy and resilient
food system? In this context,
and I guess, like we've talked
quite a bit about this kind of
efficiency resilience thing. The
point, of course, is that
underneath everything within our
economy is this take-make-waste
throughput system and that's
what's being made efficient. And
one of the things I think
interesting that you kind of
have come back to a couple times
Joss is the fact that in the, in
the efficiency of
take-make-waste, the role of
most people is quite limited to
consumers, described as kind of
consumers of course, we actually
know that most things you don't
consume I don't consume my
laptop, for example. And it
sounds like actually, this kind
of local agenda has also you've
talked about this kind of notion
of it being kind of empowering
the people. They're not they're
not just end to pipe consumers
when we start thinking about
these networks of of localised
supply chain. So there's
something there's something
quite quite exciting about that
as outside of all the pandemic
conversations. I wanted to move
on to a slightly different tack,
which is that with governments
intervening in the economy more
than they usually would,
suddenly there's huge amounts of
government intervention. What,
in what ways can policymakers
enact on a larger scale? What
what can they do? And also, what
does that mean for some of these
really big agendas? You alluded
to already, too. It's not about
abandoning climate change.
That's perhaps a concern that
people would say, well, now, now
we're focused on how do we
reignite reignite the economy?
How do we bump ourselves out of
a recession? And that that might
see an abandonment of some of
these environmental agendas the
Paris Agreement, European Green
Deal, environmental economic
agendas?
Yeah, thanks for that. That's a
lot to unpack. But I'd go back
to your first point about the
role of the citizen because it
links to something which is very
important as well as the role of
cities in all this And it's been
obviously rising in important
cities as a political force,
cities as a source of a massive
source of GDP globally and
cities as economic powerhouses
with creativity and all the
interconnectedness of all
systems actually, they provide a
really good way into circular
economy strategies. And the fact
that people have been locked
down and remain within the
boundaries of their
neighbourhoods means also that
they have felt empowered to take
part in repair activities,
repair cafes, local food
production, all of that movement
has been in a way legitimised
and people feel that they can
express that they can contribute
to the economy and the
inclusiveness that it brings is
actually great because it has
been felt for a long time that
the economy was happening
somewhere else. It wasn't part
of society or it was presented
that way. And that leads to a
lot of frustration. But once you
turn that around in as a city
and the C40 has been a brilliant
group, you know, leading on
climate change, and really
taking those circular economy
ideas to the fore. I was
listening yesterday to an
address by the Mayor of London,
quoting circular economy as a
key strategy in bringing London
to net zero carbon. And it
really is a revelation for a lot
of people within their own
cities, who have a repair cafe,
on their doorstep who wants to
take part in those activities,
that they can actually
contribute creatively to the
economy. Now to your second
question, the size of the
recovery stimulus packages is
staggering. And it's really
important to make sure that the
investments will be in line with
that economy of the future that
a lot of countries again and
policymakers have started to put
on the table either through the
establishment of national
circular economy roadmaps or
legislation or commitments to
the Paris agenda, that hinge on
industrial strategy. You know,
we see the climate change has
always been, traditionally, and
for the right reasons, has
always been pitched as an energy
generation and consumption issue
only. But we've shown in our
latest paper with the help of
our partners Material Economics,
last September, that actually,
production and consumption
represent 45% of GHG emissions
as well. So if your industrial
renewal strategy is conducive to
low carbon in the first place,
that it means that you can take
circular economy as a as an
argument within your Paris
Agreement Commitment, and
include it in those policies.
And the integration of all this
means that you have a much more
powerful, integrated, very clear
tool in order to get where you
want to get to, which is an
economy that thrives in the long
term, and relies less and less
on the consumption of finite
resource, including fossil
fuels. So there's another
question that was in a way
contained in that first one, Seb
which is recovery packages for
certain industries. Do we run to
save them regardless of how they
operate or do we put
conditionality provisions on the
recovery packages as well? And
in certain cases, we've seen
states saying, okay, we'll bail
out this specific industry. But
this comes with a need for a
commitment to move to either
more circular or regenerative,
low carbon practices. So there
is a way to shift the system as
well through that, that recovery
and that safety net.
Do you think from that point, of
kind of, you know, building
these recovery plans that it
might actually change how
governments and how societies
perceive growth in the economy
and how how success is
perceived, and like has the
pandemic, I guess changed how
all of us think about the
economy? Or I know that's such a
huge question and not like a
simple answer. But you know,
it's a, it's a big period of
change. So does that mean we can
have bigger changes going
forward?
Well, I'm not sure I can answer
that. But what's certain is that
all of these big shocks tend to
put things into perspective. And
one way to put the world in
perspective is to look at what
we value and what values
underpin growth as we know it.
And I think the question has
been more made much more
relevant, you know, is blind
volume based consumerism
actually the way forward? You
know, the question has been put
on the table for sure. And we've
seen that things that we don't
have access to, and we thought
that we would miss massively.
Actually, we don't we see the
benefits of moving away from
certain practices. There's
definitely a societal
reassessment of a few
priorities. By the same token, I
think it needs to be important.
It needs to be said as well that
a lot of people are suffering
massively at the end of the
economic impact. It's a crisis
that has disastrous health,
personal consequences, economic
consequences. So there's a
legitimacy behind the idea of
making sure that the economy is
propped up really quickly as
well. The question is how so it
can't be only a pure academic
intellectual values based
debate, but for sure, once the
economy is picking up
questioning the way it should
go, given its constraints, and
also given the services that it
actually gives to the citizens
in general, the place of
business and a lot of businesses
and a lot of prominent
businesses in our network have
been saying this for a long
time, we need to reassess the
actual place of companies in
society and what they can bring
in it. And if they don't
contribute anything positive,
then they should be asking
themselves really big questions.
And by wanting to contribute,
then of course, you start to
question your practices and you
say, what's the impact? Can I
make a positive impact? Can I
contribute to the regeneration
of ecosystems, to better cities
to better conditions for
citizens in general, and
products that actually deliver a
service and are in a way
valorisable, that can be
invested in the future, etc? Do
we give an outlet to create
people's creativity? All of
these are really big questions
that, of course, have been made
even more prevalent by the
crisis. Now giving an answer to
that is is obviously impossible
future will tell all we can do
is show that their is traction,
that there is a benefit and
that's what we strive for at the
Foundation.
We've had a couple of questions
in from the audience, watching
online, thank you so much for
sending those in and do keep
commenting in the various places
where you're watching this show.
A couple sort of asking, I
think, for kind of clarification
around that 45% number that you
gave Joss, because actually,
ever since we published that
paper, so that's quite a
surprising stat for many people.
I think that fossil fuels and
renewable energy that's, that's
what kind of emissions are all
about. What do we mean, in like,
not not asking for the hundred
page report version of this,
because we've got three minutes
left, but what are some of the
things that come under that kind
of... what are the things that
sit outside energy transition at
45%?
Well, it's all the production,
the emissions associated with
the production of the goods and
the food that flowed through the
economy, basically, to give you
a really short answer, you know,
footprint of industry of use as
well. But the, the main, the
main idea is to say 55% is
energy systems. It's about
heating. It's about providing
the energy to the domestic etc.
and... but also the emissions
that are generated by the stuff
that we make, that we then
market that we put at the
disposal of the consumers and
that eventually get discarded.
And the food that flows through
the system. All of that accounts
for 45% of global GHG emissions,
there is a very simple slide on
our website, and maybe we can
share the link later on. It's in
the Completing the Picture
report in the publication
section of our website and the
the actual graph, the pie chart
that gives you a breakdown of
the sectors it's very clear on
that one.
And let's see if we can squeeze
in one more question. I'm
looking at the top of my screen
at the time as we eat away our
finite time. There's a there's a
kind of like... there's a big
picture question from YouTube.
I'm putting you in a position
here Joss where I respect that
there's no way that you can
possibly answer this question in
the time that we're giving you.
But, but and I feel like we've
talked about a little bit
already, so maybe it's
reiterating some points. But the
question is, is it time to move
towards a circular society? And
what they follow on to say is,
how might we put resilience and
hope into sort of practical
plans and investments at a scale
at city scale, for example?
Yeah, I like the fact that you
respect that I won't be able to
address this because I won't.
But again, it's really
reiterating the the intentions
that were already out there
before that crisis that a system
reset is necessary on many, many
fronts because we have
constrained resources because
the negative externalities and
the impacts of economic activity
as we know it can't run in the
long term because it doesn't
deliver what it should in terms
of either well being or
ecosystem services, or general,
you know, building a positive
model of society in which the
economy is included and to which
people can feel they
participate, they have a role in
and that they can express their
creativity for the greater good,
is, of course, more important
than ever. And, again, all of
this is contained in a lot of
plans going forward, you know,
it's really great to see that
some countries which have had
their share of challenges. I'm
thinking of Chile here, for
instance, who couldn't be a host
for the COP25, but had signalled
really great intentions is
forging ahead with their
national circular economy
roadmap despite of the
challenges that they face
because that they see that you
need to have an outlook on what
things are going to look like
after this. There will be an
after and we're moving towards
it. The question is, what's,
what sort of after do we want?
And if you build it with a sense
of positive direction in mind,
and of course, it's going to be
even more inspiring for people
to take part in.
Well, thank you very much for
making some time to share some
points of view with us today,
Joss. Thank you to our listeners
at home, I guess what... I mean,
a lot of people talk about
COVID-19 being something that
accelerates certain trends and I
guess we're going to see over
the next few months, whether
that's actually what happens,
but certainly it feels like the
thrust of this conversation is
that the circular economy was
already building significant
momentum beforehand amongst the
business community in terms of
the business case for transition
and increase near and
international and policy level.
And there are clearly some signs
and case to be made that that is
something that should accelerate
out to the transition, as well.
So thank you to Joss. Thank you
to everyone for tuned in at
home. Next week on the Circular
Economy Show, we're going to be
taking a deep dive into climate
change. So we talked about the
55 to 45% numbers we quoted
there if you want to find out
what that's all about then we're
joined by Suki from the
foundation team at the same time
and the same place next week. So
make sure that you subscribe to
our channels wherever you're
watching this on, whether it's
YouTube, Facebook, LinkedIn,
Twitter, and you can also find
out all the information about
upcoming episodes on our
website. Thank you for watching,
and thank you once again to
Tansy and Joss and we'll see you
next week.
