 SOLEDAD: I'M SOLEDAD O'BRIEN.
WELCOME TO "MATTER OF FACT."
THREE YEARS AGO ON JULY 17,
2014, ERIC GARNER DIED AFTER HE
WAS RESTRAINED BY NEW YORK CITY
POLICE OFFICERS ON STATEN
ISLAND.
SUSPECTED OF SELLING LUCIES OR
SINGLE CIGARETTES, POLIC
ARRESTED HIM, AND PLACED HIM IN
A BANNED CHOKEHOLD.
GARNER PROTESTED OVER AND OVER
THAT HE COULDN'T BREATHE.
WITHIN AN HOUR, THE 43-YEAR-OLD
WAS DEAD.
GARNER'S DEATH WAS ONE IN A
SERIES OF INCIDENTS THAT FOCUSED
NATIONAL ATTENTION ON POLICE
VIOLENCE AGAINST BLACK
AMERICANS.
A NEW BOOK CALLED "CHOKEHOLD"
CLAIMS THE WIDESPREAD IDEA THAT
BLACK MEN ARE MORE PRONE TO
VIOLENCE IS ONE THE JUSTICE
SYSTEM HAS PERPETRATED FOR
DECADES.
PAUL BUTLER IS A FORMER FEDERAL
PROSECUTOR AND AUTHOR OF
"CHOKEHOLD."
ALSO, A PROFESSOR OF LAW AT
GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY.
THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.
PAUL BUTLER: IT'S GREAT TO BE
SOLEDAD: YOUR BOOK IS AMAZING
AND ALSO KIND OF OVERWHELMINGLY
TOUGH TO READ AS WELL.
WHY DID YOU CALL IT "CHOKEHOLD?"
PAUL BUTLER: THE CHOKEHOLD IS A
TWO-STEP PROCESS.
IT IS ABOUT HOW BLACK MEN ARE
PERCEIVED.
WE OFTEN ARE VIEWED AS THUGS.
THERE IS A LOT OF ANXIETY, A LOT
OF FEAR AROUND US.
SO STEP ONE, THE CONSTRUCTION OF
THE THUG.
STEP TWO IS ALL THIS LAW AND
SOCIAL PRACTICES TO DEAL WIT
NOT WANTING TO SIT NEXT TO BLACK
IKELY TO SHOOT US.
COMPLY, BUT YOU 
SOLEDAD: SOS PUT ON
PEOPGA
THAT IE 
YOU SAW A HUMAN KILLED ON
TELEVISION.
YOU SAW THE ENTIRE PROCESS.
PAUL BUTLER: POLICE IN AMERICA
KILL ABOUT 1000 PEOPLE A YEAR.
AND IN 10 YEARS, THERE WERE
FEWER THAN 50 PROSECUTIONS OF
THOSE OFFICERS AND ONLY ABOUT 11
WERE CONVICTED.
SO WHY IS THAT
IN "CHOKEHOLD," I SUGGEST THE
SYSTEM IS ACTUALLY WORKI
WAY IT IS SUPPOSED TO.
THE POLICE HAVE SUPER POWERS,
SO, OFTEN WHEN THEY KILL AFRICAN
AMERICANS, IT IS PERFECTLY
LEGAL.
WHAT THE COURT HAS DONE IS
EMPOWERED THE POLICE.
AND BY COURT, I MEAN THE SUPREME
COURT HAS EMPOWERED THE POLICE
WITH THE ABILITY TO MAKE ARRESTS
FOR ANYTHING.
I TALK ABOUT A CASE THE SUPREME
COURT HEARD IN TEXAS WHERE THEY
ARRESTED A WOMAN FOR DRIVING
WITHOUT A SEAT BELT.
LOCKED HER UP AND TOOK HER TO
.
THE CRAZY THING WAS IF YOU ARE
GUILTY OF THAT CRIME, YOU DON'
GO TO JAIL.
IT IS A $50 FINE.
SUPREME COURT SAID IT DIDN'T.
YOU CAN STILL BE ARRESTED, EVEN
IF YOU CAN'T BE LOCKED UP IF Y
ARE GUILTY.
FOR USING DEADLY FORCE, F
RACIAL PROFILING, FOR MAKING
ARRESTS FOR ANY LITTLE OLD
CR
THOSE POWERS AGAINST BLACK MEN.
SOLEDAD: THERE IS A PHILOSOPHY
THAT WOULD SAY IT IS NOT THAT
THE ENTIRE SYSTEM IS CORRUPT,
THAT YOU HAVE SOME BAD ACTORS,
BAD APPLES IN THE BARREL IF YOU
WILL.
PAUL BUTLER: I DON'T THINK
POLICE OFFICERS ARE ANY MORE
RACIST OR HAVE ANY MORE BAGGAGE
AROUND RACE THAN LAW PROFESSORS,
THAN ARTISTS, THAN ANYONE ELSE
IN OUR SOCIETY.
AGAIN, THE PROBLEM ISN'T WITH
THEM.
THE PROBLEM IS THAT THE WAY THEY
ENFORCE THEIR LAW IS ALL ABOUT
VIOLENCE.
UNFORTUNATELY, IT IS ALL ABOUT
USING CRIMINAL LAW TO TREAT
ISSUES THAT ARE MUCH MORE ABOUT
PUBLIC HEALTH, ABOUT WAYS TO
KEEP FAMILIES WHOLE.
IF WE LOOK AT WHO'S LOCKED UP,
SOLEDAD, 80% OF PEOPLE WHO ARE
IN PRISON ARE EITHER ADDICTS OR
MENTALLY ILL.
SO, HOW CAN WE ASK THE POLICE TO
DEAL WITH PROBLEMS LIKE THAT?
UNFORTUNATELY, AS A SOCIETY,
THAT'S OUR INVESTMENT.
OUR INVESTMENT IS IN LAW
ENFORCEMENT RATHER THAN
TREATMENT, RATHER THAN PUBLIC
HEALTH, RATHER THAN GREAT
SCHOOLS AND JOB TRAINING.
AND IF YOU ARE A SOCIETY THAT
HAS A LOT OF FEAR AND ANXIETY
AROUND AFRICAN AMERICAN MEN,
THEN YOUR SOLUTION IS GOING TO
BE INCARCERATION, LOCKING THEM
UP, TRYING TO CONTROL THEM.
SOLEDAD: THE BOOK IS CALLED
