GAIL SIMMONS:
Thanks for having us
and thanks for giving
me the opportunity
to spend more time
with Leanne Brown.
I'm really excited that
you asked me here today
to speak with you because
it's a topic that's not only
incredibly timely and important
at this moment in America
for a lot of reasons,
b but it is something
that as a person who
eats for a living,
I think about every day.
And I think, as someone
who is lucky enough
to eat well in this
country, as we all are--
and I know that I can
say that because I just
had lunch in your cafeteria.
LEANNE BROWN: Yeah, we know.
GAIL SIMMONS: And
I know how you all
eat, which is an
incredible privilege.
But sadly it has
become a privilege.
And I think I wanted
to start there,
so that we can talk a little
bit about how this book came
to be because it is one of
the most unique stories,
certainly in cookbook
publishing, of the last decade.
I mean it really
was born in a way
that I think could
have only happened
at this moment in this
country as it happened.
So, let's go back
for a little bit.
LEANNE BROWN: You're so right.
Sometimes people ask me,
how did you start this?
Or ask for advice
for publishing.
I'm always like, I'm
not sure we can really
recreate the bizarre
experience that I had.
So for those of you who aren't
familiar with the project,
it actually started out as my
thesis project for my masters
at NYU in food studies.
So it was like this
really nerdy big project.
And because food studies
is this very new field.
It's only been I
think 15 years--
GAIL SIMMONS: I would say.
LEANNE BROWN: --at NYU.
And I believe that's
the oldest program.
GAIL SIMMONS: And it's
a very unique program.
It doesn't exist in
many places at all.
LEANNE BROWN: Exactly.
And so, because it's
so new and unique,
there is no one
specific way that you
have to do your thesis.
It's not like an
anthropology degree,
where you write this long paper
in this very specific style.
And for me, what I'd been
drawn to during the course
of the degree, really
it just became clear
that this was something
that I could do.
And something that
I was uniquely
capable of
contributing, which is
to create a cookbook for people
who are living on a food stamps
budget.
GAIL SIMMONS: So let's just
take a minute background
on food stamps.
They are a complicated
issue in US politics.
A very unique and at
moments, actually exciting
story, in this country
of how they came to.
The history of them and their
current status in America
has changed a lot.
And food stamps, as people know,
are social welfare for people
who obviously who cannot
afford to pay for their food.
LEANNE BROWN: Right, for
people with a certain threshold
right of income.
GAIL SIMMONS: Right.
But it takes a lot of
work to prove that you
are below that threshold.
LEANNE BROWN: Yeah, even
just doing the paperwork
is extraordinary.
It's incredibly difficult
simply to sign up for them.
And so, the book is
called, "Good and Cheap,"
not the food stamps cookbook.
It's called, "Eat Well
on $4/day" because $4
a day is the average amount
that you have to work with.
So even after you managed to
sign up, which is no easy feat,
then suddenly you have
approximately $4 a day
to work with, which
is an incredible gift.
But at the same time
is not like, oh ho,
no problem then,
everything's going to be OK!
It's still
extraordinarily difficult.
GAIL SIMMONS: Especially in
places all over the country
where access to food--
LEANNE BROWN: Exactly, which
is such an important topic,
especially while
I was at school.
And continues to be a really
important field of study
that a lot of great
minds are working on.
And I see a lot of hope there.
But yeah, there's this focus on
not everyone has even a place
to go grocery shopping to spend
your $4 in an appropriate way.
You know there might be the
place several miles away.
And food security looks
different in different places.
Like the way that it looks in
New York City's sort of food
insecurity might be,
urban and security
means having to walk
a half hour somewhere,
having to take lousy public
transit with heavy bags.
In the rural countryside,
it might mean only
being able to afford gas to
go those five towns over once
a month or something like that.
So it looks very different
in different places.
And I was studying
all these big issues
and becoming really frustrated
by it and angry about it.
And we'd have in
grad school you have
all these amazing
conversations with people.
And you have these intense
conversations in class.
And then at the end you
always come to this point
we're you're like, well,
I don't we're going to do.
We're screwed.
That's usually where you end up.
And I just got so tired of
that experience and sort
of knowing the struggles
that we had ahead.
And knowing like how
important they were.
And I never want to
give up on those sort
of large scale struggles.
But I also was like desperate
to just do something
right now that could be of use.
And that could be
of immediate use.
That certainly was a response
to the whole problem,
but was the one thing that
I was sort of good at,
which was and is cooking.
I know and as you know,
Gail, and many people
who work in food knows
the cost of basic food.
Basic foods are really,
really inexpensive,
if you know how to
put them together.
You know if you have
those abilities.
It's really just work.
It's a practice.
And so that was something
that I really wanted to share.
And I never in a
million years imagined
it would end up at this scale.
I had hoped to be
able to have it
be of use to a few of the
people that I worked with,
that I volunteered with.
It's amazing that it has been
as well received as it has.
I think it just shows that it's
something that a lot of people
are excited about.
GAIL SIMMONS: And
there was a hole.
It hadn't been done before.
It seems quite
simple that we all,
no matter I think at
what income you're at,
and how much access
to good food you have,
you need to know
what to do with it.
And that's a complicated topic.
That's why cookbooks exist--
LEANNE BROWN: Exactly.
GAIL SIMMONS: --in
the first place.
LEANNE BROWN: Even
the best of us
sometimes are just like, ugh,
I don't know what to do today.
GAIL SIMMONS: Or you
look at a pantry of food
and how do you make
that into a meal.
Moreover, how do you make
it into a nutritious meal,
but that's also delicious?
LEANNE BROWN: Yes.
GAIL SIMMONS: And I think that
there are, for so many years--
LEANNE BROWN: Something
you look forward to.
Right.
GAIL SIMMONS: --that
those have been opposing.
And I think that especially
at the food stamp
level and the
level of people who
need to get access
the most, there
has been a bit of a disconnect
in the conversation between how
do we make sure that we eat
well and feed our families,
but also eat food that we
want to eat that tastes good
and that we feel
empowered by eating.
So you are right--
LEANNE BROWN: And
that is something
you look forward to because it's
something that we all deserve.
I mean we all had
this wonderful lunch.
And you guys get to
have that every day.
And that's something
that can get you
through a difficult day.
And that should be available
for absolutely everyone.
Everyone deserves
that type of comfort.
GAIL SIMMONS: That should
be a right, not a privilege.
So you're writing
your thesis, and you
decide I'm going to write a
cookbook with recipes that
fit in the food stamp budget.
And then what happens?
Because it took a turn in a way
that I think is worth sharing.
LEANNE BROWN: Right.
So after I graduated,
this was December of 2013,
I had kind of thought, OK,
great, so I've done this,
now I need to get
it out to people.
And I initially
thought this would
be a great tool in the hands
of some of the nonprofits
that I'd worked with,
that I had volunteered
with during my degree.
I was thinking of a
lot of the families
that I had spoken with.
I'd just love to be able
to give this to them.
And so I started out there.
I was sort of pitching
it to different profits
and people were
interested in it.
But no one was really sure.
At that point It was just a PDF.
I was kind of scrolling
through it, showing them.
Like, oh, this is really nice.
We're not exactly
sure how we'll use it.
And, again, my
impatience took over.
And I just decided
in April of 2014
that I was just going to
create a little website
and put the book up there and
kind of see what happened.
I didn't really
have a great plan.
I wasn't like, well,
I'm going to start
pitching this to everyone.
There was no real
rhyme or reason.
I was just like, I just
want to put it out there.
GAIL SIMMONS: Did
you tell anybody?
LEANNE BROWN: And
we'll figure it out.
GAIL SIMMONS: Dan knew.
Dan definitely knew.
LEANNE BROWN: Yeah, I told Dan.
I told a few of my friends.
I really didn't tell that
many people, actually.
So, which is why I was
really surprised when
one day at the end of April,
just a few weeks after I'd
made the website, I came home.
And I opened up my computer
and I had hundreds of emails
from my website.
And at that point, it
was the weirdest thing,
because like Dan
had seen the website
and my father had
seen the website.
He had pretty much every day
called to say like, Leanne,
you've got some typos on
there, can you please--
GAIL SIMMONS: Mmm,
thank you dad.
LEANNE BROWN: Yeah, thanks Dad.
But nobody else had so I
was like, what is going on?
And it turned out that someone
had posted it on Reddit.
And it had become a
very popular thread.
And I was terrified,
instantly terrified,
assumed the worse, of course.
And was thinking like,
oh my goodness, it's
all these people probably
criticizing and saying I'm
an idiot.
GAIL SIMMONS: More typos.
LEANNE BROWN: Yeah,
it's definitely typos.
And it turned out that
it was the opposite.
I remember one of
the first e-mails
that I got that really struck
me was this young man, named
Christian.
He said I am a student.
I'm going back to school.
I have to go on food
stamps for the first time
because I have to
cut my hours back.
And I was so terrified I was
just going to be eating ramen.
Because that's what
everyone tells you.
And he said, oh, it's
such a relief to me.
I'm really excited about this.
And there were hundreds more
like that with similar stories
and a lot of different stories.
The actual thing that really
touched me was not just
the people who are saying,
this is helpful to me
right now, which of course
was tremendously validating,
but was that people were sharing
stories about experiences
they've had in their past.
Like growing up with
hunger, talking about,
my grandparents
who look at looked
after us did a great job.
We ate really well, but
I remember our neighbors
had a really tough time.
And I wish they'd had
something like this.
People were sharing
stuff like this.
It was so incredible.
And people were creating
this little community,
sort of saying like, all right,
well, let's help Leanne out.
Like, how can we
get this out there?
And I was like, yeah,
guys, what do you think,
how can we get this out there?
I don't know what I'm doing.
And so that was really exciting.
And after Reddit, it sort of
spread to a few different parts
of the internet.
And I realized that I just
needed to have courage.
I needed to stop like
being a wimp, kind
of just telling Dan
and just telling
my dad about these things.
I needed to go for it.
GAIL SIMMONS: What
did that mean?
LEANNE BROWN: That meant
launching a Kickstarter
to fund an actual print run.
Because of course the one
very legitimate criticism
that people had was like,
it's great that it's online.
And it's very easy to
give things away for free
on the internet.
But it's not that easy to
give things away for free
when they're physical.
I knew that we wanted to
make physical cookbooks,
but I just didn't
really know how.
And so with all
this encouragement
from all these wonderful
strangers, I was like, OK,
maybe we can raise some money.
So we decided to do a
Kickstarter campaign.
Stole the Tom's shoes model,
the buy one, give one.
Because it was very important
that this not sort of just
be a cookbook, it
was very important
that it remain totally free
and as accessible as possible
for people for whom it would
really be a genuine burden
to pay $20 for a cookbook.
I just didn't want to put
up that kind of barrier.
So luckily Kickstarter
exists, you can kind of
do what you need to do,
just put it out there,
ask people for this.
So we launched the campaign.
We asked for $10,000.
And we figured with
that-- Dan helped
with these calculations--
that we could
print about 1,000 books total.
500 we'd be able to give away.
500 we'd give to our backers.
And we could sort of break even
and get by and it would be OK.
But we reached that goal in the
first 36 hours of the campaign.
So it's like a day
and a half later.
It was unbelievable.
And I have to say
just because I am here
at Google that a lot
of Dan's colleagues
and even people that
he'd never met before
were incredible in those
first few days, so supportive.
Everyone was so excited.
And I think really lent some
great momentum to the project.
And so then, by the end of the
campaign, we had over $144,000.
GAIL SIMMONS: Which
translate to how many books?
LEANNE BROWN: 40,000 books.
GAIL SIMMONS: 40,000 books.
LEANNE BROWN: Yeah.
GAIL SIMMONS: Just to
put that in perspective,
and the people at
Workman can certainly--
LEANNE BROWN: Oh my god.
GAIL SIMMONS: --fill in
the blanks about this.
But a first run of a cookbook
by someone relatively unknown
at the time.
LEANNE BROWN: Completely, yeah.
GAIL SIMMONS: Now, Leanne Brown
will be in the history books.
Is sort of unprecedented.
Who publishes a 40,000 book run?
Granted you were given
a lot of them away.
But that is, by any measure,
an extraordinary feat.
Let alone one that
you knew most of which
was going to be given away--
LEANNE BROWN: Right.
GAIL SIMMONS: --as a
non-profit venture.
LEANNE BROWN: Well, and that was
what was kind of exciting as we
were making more
and more money, we
knew that we were going to
be able to give more away.
That was kind of
what we had said.
When I made my little video
I said, the more we raise,
the more we can give away.
And we really wanted to do that.
In the end the
breakdown was, 7,000
went to our Kickstarter
backers 9,000
we donated through hundreds
of different profits
across the country.
And I can talk a little
bit more about that later.
And then the balance,
so we had 24,000 left.
And we wanted to give
away as many as possible.
But it's expensive to just like
purely donate those things.
And so what we figured
was, we could still
get more into people's
hands, if we asked people
to pay just a
little bit for them.
So we asked the same
nonprofits, would you guys
be interested in
purchasing these at cost?
So about $4 a book.
And we got an incredible
outpouring of interest
there as well.
And so the balance was
24,000 we sold at $4 each
to those same
non-profits we worked
with about 600 different
non-profits across the country.
And they were talking
about, obviously,
food banks and food
pantries, a lot of schools
and daycare programs,
senior centers, lots
of farmers' markets, a lot
of different health care
organizations, even
some health insurance
plans were interested in.
It was fascinating the
sort of groups of people
who I had never thought about
being interested in this,
who were saying, this is such an
important issue for my clients.
It's people that I never
really thought about.
GAIL SIMMONS: I think that
that brings up a point,
if I can take a
slight serious turn.
The scale of the issue
of hunger in America.
Your book says this, 46 million
people in this country know
hunger, go to--
LEANNE BROWN: Right now.
GAIL SIMMONS: --hungry, or
what's called food insecure.
So don't know where their
next meal will be from.
LEANNE BROWN: It's
15% of the population.
GAIL SIMMONS: Right.
LEANNE BROWN: Yeah.
GAIL SIMMONS: By the way,
side note, we're from Canada.
By far not a perfect country,
but a much smaller country
by population.
46 million hungry
people in this country.
There are only 35 million
people in Canada, full stop.
LEANNE BROWN: I mean that
was a huge thing when
I was in grad school, just
that, thinking about that.
It's difficult to actually
wrap your mind around.
GAIL SIMMONS: And knowing
that the face of hunger-- that
sounds like a weird
poster that should
go on the subway-- but you
don't know what it looks like.
And to your point--
LEANNE BROWN: It's so diverse.
GAIL SIMMONS: --the outpouring
of people that we talked about
and the places that you
were being contacted by
were incredibly diverse and from
the corners of our population
that you would never imagine.
LEANNE BROWN: Absolutely.
I mean we all know
that there are so
many stereotypes about people
who are living with hunger,
people who are on food stamps.
But it's 15% of the
population, they're
as diverse as the
rest of the country.
And the stories are really
incredible and really moving
and really important.
And that's actually
something about this project
that I probably
should have expected,
but I never expected sort of
to be as intense and as moving.
I hear from people daily
who will share things.
I get a lot of letters
that start with,
I've never shared this
story with anyone before.
And I'm so honored
that people trust me
that see me as someone
who can understand
their story that is probably
really difficult to tell.
But I also I feel an intense
need to tell those stories too.
And a real desire
to in small ways
try to make the world
a little bit safer,
so that people can feel
more comfortable sharing
their stories as well.
And especially to
the people that they
work with and their family and
their friends because you know
we're talking about 15%
of the population who's
dealing with this right now.
Think about over the
course of your life.
We all know someone,
or even many people,
who have dealt
with these issues.
And it's a very hidden problem.
And it shouldn't be because
shame festers in places
where there's no light
when we don't talk
to people about these things.
GAIL SIMMONS: And becomes
in itself a cycle.
LEANNE BROWN: Yes
GAIL SIMMONS: Being able
to eat with integrity
I think about a lot.
And I think this is a viable
tool by which people can do so.
LEANNE BROWN: Yes.
I mean I hope that it can be
useful for a lot of people.
It's certainly not going
to work for everyone.
There's no tool I think that can
work for absolutely everyone.
But I hope that this is of use.
I know that it's of
use to a lot of people.
GAIL SIMMONS: So tell us where
you are now with the book.
You gave away and sold
those first 40,000.
And then?
LEANNE BROWN: Well, and then
it was during the Kickstarter
that I heard from a few
different publishers, which
was really surprising
to me at first.
And not because I thought,
well, I'm the best, Dan
and I are brilliant
at publishing,
we just want to do
this on our own.
It was just that
we never thought
that any publisher would want
to help us give away cookbooks.
They're in the business
of the opposite of that.
So I just never looked
for a publisher.
And so I ended up meeting up
with the incredible people
at Workman Publishing,
many of whom are here
today to support me.
And they said we
love your cookbook,
but we and we want to help
you take this project further.
We love the giveaway idea.
This is what we're all about.
And we want to help
you take it further.
I was like, yes, please.
Not only because, obviously,
that's just a good idea,
but also because
we had just managed
to distribute 40,000 books and
never wanted to do that again.
Actually it before
all that happened.
GAIL SIMMONS: From
your apartment--
LEANNE BROWN: I was
just terrified about it
at that point it.
I was just like, ugh.
GAIL SIMMONS: But doing
it with a publisher
will give you an enormous
amount of infrastructure.
LEANNE BROWN: Let the people
who know what they're doing,
do their thing.
Yes.
There are experts--
GAIL SIMMONS:
That's what they do.
LEANNE BROWN: --out there.
Yes.
So it's been incredible.
So what we did was, we created a
second edition of the cookbook.
So that gave me the opportunity
to kind of look at the book
again because it had
sort of melded out
of this thesis and then
some other information.
And then I'd added
some new recipes
through the Kickstarter, gotten
some cool stories from people
that had written to me.
I'd been able to
improve it a little bit,
but this is another
opportunity to fill
in a lot more of the holes,
address some of the things
that people said, we
actually like this.
Like all the information
about how to shop,
like what are some strategies
for what you should
have in your kitchen, and how
you can get food on the table
quickly.
All these kinds of things.
That tends to be the
part of the cookbook
that I personally skip.
So I was like, uh, people
aren't that into this.
It turned out that people
were incredibly interested
in that information.
And so I added a
lot more of that.
I think we've
really improved it.
And so that's what came
out this past July.
And for every one
that's sold, not just
on my little
website, where people
ha to go to get it before,
but now in bookstores,
everywhere, online,
everywhere, we
are donating one for one
for every single one.
And that's going to
be as long as it's--
GAIL SIMMONS: How
do you distribute
the ones that are given away?
LEANNE BROWN: Right.
That's the other exciting thing.
With the publisher we
had even more opportunity
for partnership.
So our giveaway partner
is located in Cincinnati.
They're called, Access Wireless.
And they warehouse all the
books and they send them
out to the different nonprofits
and to the Feeding America Food
Bank system, as well as
to a lot of their clients.
So Access Wireless is a
provider of the government
funded lifeline program, which
has been around since the '80s.
And the idea behind
it when it started
was that no one should ever
have to choose between paying
for food or paying for a phone.
GAIL SIMMONS: And in
the '80s, let's remember
what phones looked like.
LEANNE BROWN: Yeah, right.
Exactly.
GAIL SIMMONS: They were held
with a briefcase I think.
None of you are old enough--
LEANNE BROWN: Shoulder pads.
GAIL SIMMONS: --to remember
that, but I remember that.
LEANNE BROWN: Balanced it in
your neck on your shoulder pad.
Yeah, that was how.
GAIL SIMMONS: Right.
LEANNE BROWN: That's
how you do it.
And so it's basically a
free phone or phone plan
for people who can't afford it.
And so Access Wireless
clients are pretty much
exactly the people
that we really want
to reach with good and cheap.
And they're also partnered
with a huge grocery store
chain, Kroger.
And so they did all this work,
often in grocery store parking
lots , sort of saying, hey, you
might qualify for this phone.
And so they were
hearing all the time
from people about what was
their number one issue.
It was food security.
It was being afraid about
where their next meal is gonna
come from, how they're going
to feed their family well,
all these kinds of things.
And so it was something that
had become really important
to them.
And so they reached out to me
during the Kickstarter as well
and said, we might like to
get several thousand books.
And I was like, (GASPS) I don't
know if we have those for you.
GAIL SIMMONS: But Workman does.
LEANNE BROWN: Yeah,
but Workman does.
And now they're an
incredible partner.
And we're so lucky
like that they're
willing to do this for us.
They're able to sort of
lean on their partnerships
to make this more powerful.
And I just feel so honored to
have them involved with it.
GAIL SIMMONS: Do
you have a gauge
at this point of how many books
you've given away in total?
LEANNE BROWN: Dan, do you know
the numbers at this point?
DAN: 20,000.
LEANNE BROWN: 20,000.
GAIL SIMMONS: 20,000 books
have been given away.
LEANNE BROWN: Yeah,
through this version.
GAIL SIMMONS: This version
and the other 20,000
from the last version.
So, 40,000 books have been
given away more or less.
LEANNE BROWN: Yeah.
GAIL SIMMONS: Let's
just, say yes.
LEANNE BROWN: There's a
lot of them out there.
GAIL SIMMONS: I know it's
more complicated, but--
LEANNE BROWN: Let's go with it.
Yeah.
GAIL SIMMONS: That is
an extraordinary amount
of people who have been
reached through your book.
LEANNE BROWN: Yeah.
GAIL SIMMONS: So,
let's talk about what's
inside this book for a
second because I've been
able to spend time with it.
I got a copy in
July and have been
drooling over it and thinking
about it and reading it.
And there is a lot
of information--
LEANNE BROWN: I
hope you guys got
to eat a few of the things
that your wonderful--
GAIL SIMMONS: Yes,
today in the cafeteria.
LEANNE BROWN: --chefs prepared.
GAIL SIMMONS: There's a lot of
really great information here.
And I think I should note,
applicable to everyone,
on how to shop, on how to cook.
And there's a few really
important lessons at the front.
So let's talk about stuff
for a second that you thought
wasn't that important.
Which I actually think is really
strategies for eating well.
LEANNE BROWN: Yeah.
GAIL SIMMONS: What are
some of the strategies
that you hope people will take
away when they read this book?
Simple strategies
people can employ
in their kitchens every day
or in their daily lives.
LEANNE BROWN: Well, so I think
one of the key things is just
don't be scared, it's
going to be totally OK.
There's almost no way that you
can really, really screw up
as badly as you can
imagine you can.
So first off, relax.
I mean if you've never done
this before, you can do it.
So much of eating well
on a really strict budget
is making sure that
you just eat everything
that you buy and use it to
sort of its fullest extent.
And so that you try to
purchase as many things that
have multiple uses as possible.
Just like in so many
areas of our lives,
if you purchase something that
you can only have one use for,
it's only going to be
useful in that one way.
So things like, pancake
mix, it's not that useful,
except to make pancakes.
Like you can make
pancakes, great.
You cannot do
anything else with it.
If you buy flour, if
you buy baking soda,
suddenly there's a million
things that you can bake.
And so those sorts of
rules are very important.
Actually we just
switched the slide
to the peanut butter
and jelly granola bars.
I have this big
section on oatmeal
because well, oatmeal
is really inexpensive,
it's super filling,
it's fantastic.
GAIL SIMMONS: Fiber.
LEANNE BROWN: It's something
that's right next to the cereal
and it's like an
eighth the price.
And you can make it
flavored anyway you like.
And it's something that we
sort of tend to have a lot of.
And so these peanut butter
and jelly granola bars
are basically
taking three things
that we almost all
have in our cupboard.
Or if we don't have
'em in our cupboard,
you know they're going
to be in a food pantry.
You're probably going to be
able to get your hands on oats
and peanut butter and jelly.
And of course we've
all eaten oatmeal,
we've all had peanut butter
and jelly sandwiches.
And this is a way
to sort of transform
those things into something
completely different.
And so what's in a granola bar?
It's basically just
oats and some stuff
to make it stick together.
And so why shouldn't that
be peanut butter and jelly?
And that's really
all that this is.
And so this is an
extremely flexible recipe,
sort of taking some basics
that you have around.
And not being afraid to
kind of smush them together
to make them into
something different.
And it's again, it's
extremely flexible.
You know if you have other
things in the pantry,
if you have some coconut, if
you have some leftover almonds,
you know the bottom of that bag
of cereal that's really dusty,
and you don't really want
to eat it with your milk,
you can throw that in here
and make it really great.
GAIL SIMMONS: Love that.
LEANNE BROWN: And so
I think this recipe
is sort of a good
example of something--
GAIL SIMMONS: Go back
to it for one second.
Sorry, I wanted to point
out one other thing.
LEANNE BROWN: --that is just
it's really about flexibility,
like being comfortable
in your kitchen.
And sort of going for
it has to do with having
a little bit of courage.
And also just being confident.
And using every last
little bit of everything.
GAIL SIMMONS: Tell us
about the information
in the top, left hand corner.
LEANNE BROWN: Oh, right.
Yes.
So that is the cost.
I don't know if you want
me to get too nerdy about
exactly how those--
GAIL SIMMONS: If you're
going to get nerdy anywhere,
you're going to do it at Google.
LEANNE BROWN: OK.
Here we go.
All right.
GAIL SIMMONS: I mean
that in the best way.
LEANNE BROWN: It's a good point.
I basically took
one neighborhood
in New York City,
Inwood, and I went
to all of the grocery stores.
And I had a huge list of all
the sort of basic pantry items.
Like we had sort of your
basic fruits and vegetables,
we had stuff from every
category, a pretty significant
list.
And I took down the prices
of all of those items
at all the different
grocery stores.
And then I sort of
averaged them out across.
And it was even
ridiculous like, what
do you say the price of
potatoes is at a given grocery
store because there's
like 20 kinds of potatoes,
and they come in different bags,
and all these kinds of things.
So it's very much an average
cost of all those items.
And I made that
into spreadsheets
and ended up ultimately
costing everything out.
And so that's where
that comes from.
And the reason that
I wanted to do that
was because initially this
book actually started out
as a critique of the
food stamps system
that we sort of take the average
cost of food across the country
and make decisions based on
that when the cost of food
varies so wildly by city,
by region, by neighborhood.
And so I sort of felt like this
could be a useful little thing
for New York City, which
is another reason why
when it first ended up getting
out on Reddit, I was like,
oh my god, this might not be
helpful, or work anywhere else.
But I realized that
it was important not
to sort of baby people
and sort of say, look,
here's an exact replica of
something that you can do.
Now, do this.
But to introduce large scale
or concepts of how to shop.
How can you sort of
get the best value?
How can you eat
more seasonally, so
that you can enjoy good
variety in your diet that
is still reasonably priced?
These sorts of things.
And so the kind of morphed
into that with time.
GAIL SIMMONS: And tell us
about some of the recipes.
LEANNE BROWN: So, we have the
vegetable quiche here as well,
which is another
example I guess.
Flexibility is probably
like the number one thing.
And that's because when
you have very little money,
you need to be able
to take advantage
of things like sales
or things like what
you happen to have available.
You need to be confident to look
into your vegetable crisper,
go like, ugh, those
things are going off,
how can I make something
good out of that?
And so as many of the
recipes as possible
really kind of take
that into account.
And so the quiche, for me,
is really one of those things
that at the end of the week when
you're looking at your produce
an you're thinking, this isn't
looking very good anymore.
What am I going to do?
I definitely want to make a
salad out of this wilty stuff.
This is a really great way
to bring those things back
to life, so that you're
using them all up.
And it's one of
the simplest tips.
I almost feel ridiculous saying,
but like when people ask,
I'll always say, don't
go to the grocery store
until you look in the
fridge and just see
what you have in
there, like especially
in your vegetable crisper.
Like just make sure that
you've emptied it out
before you start putting
other stuff on top of that.
And so this is a
great way to do that.
And it uses eggs, which are,
again, one of the, for me,
just key things to
always have with you
because you can have food
on the table so quickly.
GAIL SIMMONS: I actually noticed
in the beginning of the book,
and I'm excited about this,
you spend a lot of time
talking about eggs.
I'm a big egg lover myself.
LEANNE BROWN: They're
transformative.
They're so exciting, like
doesn't this look amazing?
GAIL SIMMONS: The most
versatile ingredient
I think known to man.
LEANNE BROWN: I think so.
GAIL SIMMONS: And other species.
LEANNE BROWN: So far, yes.
GAIL SIMMONS: Right?
And so tell us a
little about that
because I think eggs
appear and reappear
in so many different
ways in this book.
I mean that's such
a great example of--
LEANNE BROWN: Right, so
it's just like efficiency.
It's basic economics.
If you buy a few
things, and you can
use them a bunch
of different ways,
it's going to be
way more efficient.
And so eggs are
one of those items.
Of course you can have them
really quickly scrambled,
but you can create these
dishes that actually
feel really fancy
and really special,
kind of out of the scraps
and bits and pieces.
And make something
that you would
have at a beautiful restaurant
with ladies who lunch.
And that is the
magic and the power
and the beauty of cooking.
So the other really big thing
is using leftovers as well.
So we'll often make a
larger amount of something.
I don't know about
you, Gail, but I
tend to be sort
of not as excited
about leftovers the next day.
GAIL SIMMONS: Oh no.
I'm actually very
suspicious of people
who don't like leftovers.
I'm sorry, Leanne.
We're going to agree to
disagree on this one.
LEANNE BROWN: I'm
happy with them,
but I have to do something
different to them.
GAIL SIMMONS: I'll
allow you that.
LEANNE BROWN: That
just sometimes
means putting an egg on top.
GAIL SIMMONS: We have a saying
at the food and wine offices,
everything is better
with an egg on top.
LEANNE BROWN: Yeah, right.
Drooling out.
GAIL SIMMONS: Yes.
And there's a lot of great
information about eggs.
And I could talk
about eggs all day.
But there's a lot
of simple examples,
like eggs that I
think become so handy.
Yogurt is one of them.
I love your discussion
about yogurt
because I think it's
something that people
don't think about a lot.
LEANNE BROWN: Totally.
And that actually came almost
directly out of this work
that I did during my degree.
I got to do grocery store tours
with a lot of families who
are part of the WIC program.
And we would so often--
GAIL SIMMONS: WIC is--
LEANNE BROWN: I'm sorry, yes,
the Women with Infant Children
program.
So it's special food
vouchers basically of foods
that are specifically
good for women
who are pregnant with children
up to the age of five.
GAIL SIMMONS: It's subsidies
as part of the bigger--
LEANNE BROWN: Exactly.
And so there's a big
dairy component, actually.
And that became
really interesting
because of course some people
are lactose intolerant.
And it was always like,
OK, how do you use this?
But we always have such
a fascinating discussion
at the dairy case.
And everyone would
say, oh, I love yogurt.
I love giving these
yogurts to my kids.
And it was usually
those tiny little ones
that are unfortunately full
of sugar and almost as bad
as an ice cream a
lot of the time.
And as I was sort of having to
deliver this sort of bad news,
I was like, how can I
like soften the blow here?
And because yogurt is a really,
really nutritious and fantastic
ingredient.
It's just that it's
really good when it's
like the good plain yogurt.
These like little fancified,
little mini whatevers
are not so hot for you.
And so I would always be
trying to explain like,
buy the large tub of yogurt.
Not only can you make your own
flavors at home if you like,
you can throw in some
blueberries, a tablespoon
of jam, whatever you like.
GAIL SIMMONS: As seen on page.
LEANNE BROWN: Yeah, you can make
your own key lime pie version
a home.
It's not that
difficult. But also
it becomes then
an ingredient too.
It something I would
always love explaining.
Greek yogurt is really just
strange regular yogurt.
And that's something you can do.
And you can make all kinds
of savory sauces, make Raita.
GAIL SIMMONS: Dips using--
LEANNE BROWN: Yeah, tzatziki.
GAIL SIMMONS: --as
a substitution.
LEANNE BROWN: Right
and that's why
there's quite a few I think.
The zucchini muffins
recipe uses yogurt.
And just yogurt is an item that
you should have in the fridge.
And so I tried to design as many
of the recipes as possible that
use those sort of
really basic things
that you might use for
a snack, but then you
can use them in different ways.
So, yeah.
GAIL SIMMONS: What's your
favorite recipe in the book?
If You had to make something
every day, what would you make?
What's the recipe
you love the most?
LEANNE BROWN: It's
the Chana Masala,
which is a chickpea curry.
And that's because when
I was in university,
I was totally obsessed
with Indian food.
I absolutely loved it.
And it really took
me a long time
to figure out how
to make it myself.
And I had a ton
of trial and error
and just failed miserably
many, many times.
But because I
loved it so much, I
continued to try to
make it and my friends
and I had this one coffee
shop that we would always
hang out at.
And it was a coffee
shop that also
had all kinds of
Pakistani food, which is
a sort of strange combination.
But it was awesome.
And they had Chana Masala.
And we were totally
obsessed with it.
And so I had to figure
out how to make it.
It's really not
that difficult. It's
just that you need to
sort of toast the spices
and layer the flavors.
And I finally figured that out.
And I was just so excited to
share this with my friends.
And it's also something that
takes only about 20 minutes
to put together.
And it so transforms just
regular old chickpeas
into this most unctuous,
most incredibly comforting
beautiful dish.
GAIL SIMMONS: And it costs what?
LEANNE BROWN: I think it's
like $3 for that amount.
It's so cheap.
Which is, of course, amazing
because we were all students
and had no money.
And we would spend our
money at this coffee shop,
but it would be a lot better
if we could make it at home.
And it was one of the
first times I really
had that satisfying feeling of
sharing a recipe with people
and people say, I made
that and I really loved it.
And my friends will
still tell me to this day
that that's comfort food
that they make for themselves
on a regular basis.
And to me that's just so
amazing and such an honor
to be in someone's home in a
small way by giving a recipe.
GAIL SIMMONS: So we're all
making Chana Masala tonight,
right?
I am.
Before we take some questions
from the audience, last thing.
What is next for
"Good and Cheap?"
If you could have your own way
and do whatever and take it
to the next level,
what would it be?
LEANNE BROWN: Oh my gosh.
For "Good and Cheap," well,
so we're going to keep going.
I think there's
incredible partnership
possibilities available.
But my big focus,
and I don't know
exactly how I'm
going to do this,
but is to share the stories
that people have been
sharing with me in some way.
In a way that really honors
them and that will make
people want to read them and
pay attention to them as well.
And so I'm not sure how
that project will work,
whether it'll be a
podcast or a video series.
But I think that's a really
important component of this
because it's not
just about the food,
but it's about the people
who are making this food.
And I feel like I have a
responsibility to do that.
GAIL SIMMONS: Then there's
a part B to this question.
I'm getting kicked off stage.
How can we help?
LEANNE BROWN: Oh my goodness.
Well, I guess tell
people about the stuff.
Cook.
GAIL SIMMONS: Buy the book.
LEANNE BROWN: Learn more
about the Food Stamps program.
Vote for people who
you think actually
care about these
issues and are not
going to continue
to defund them.
Very, very, very important.
GAIL SIMMONS: You can find
out who those people are
pretty easily, actually.
LEANNE BROWN: Pretty easily.
GAIL SIMMONS: There's a, now
I'm forgetting the name of it.
There's a website
that just launched.
OK, I'm going to get
back to you on that.
But that rates the
Congress people
in your constituency on
issues surrounding the Farm
Bill and Child Nutrition Act.
This, in the biggest way I
think, is a policy issue.
But--
LEANNE BROWN: Agree.
GAIL SIMMONS: --we
all have voices
and we all can improve the
health of our communities
by cooking good and cheap.
LEANNE BROWN: Yeah, exactly.
I guess just be confident
in your own lives.
And know that cooking
is not something
that's only for experts.
It's something that
absolutely all of us
can do, and get a lot
of enjoyment out of,
and improve our lives
in just small ways.
GAIL SIMMONS: Thank
you so, so much.
Thanks everyone for coming.
LEANNE BROWN: Do we
have time for questions?
OK, wonderful.
And Dan could we switch to
the slide that shows the map?
I just wanted to show
that off because it's
my most favorite thing.
So this map shows all of
the different non-profits
that we've worked with to-date.
And if you want to see that
in a much more detailed way,
you can go to
LeanneBrown.com/impact.
And you can scroll
down and see the names
of all the different places
that we've worked with.
Because if you're
not from New York
and you want to see sort
of where in your hometown
we've worked with, you
can check that out.
AUDIENCE: Hi, thanks for coming.
Read your book.
You had a lot of really
good ideas in it.
But I noticed this earlier
you made a quip like,
oh, people think when
they're going on food stamps,
all they're going to be
able to eat is ramen.
LEANNE BROWN: Right.
AUDIENCE: And that's
not really true.
Would you say it's more
accurate that if someone's
going on food
stamps, they're going
to be eating a lot less meat?
And if that is
accurate, do you think
that would be a cultural shift
for your average food stamp
recipient?
LEANNE BROWN: So I don't think
there is an average food stamp
recipient.
So that's not something
that I sort of feel
totally comfortable going with.
But definitely I think
it's naturally much cheaper
to eat less meat.
And you'll notice
in the book you
know it's not a
vegetarian book, but there
isn't that much meat in it.
And that's just for
practical reasons.
And because if you use meat in
sort of more as a flavoring,
rather than as the
center of the dish,
you can still have it as a
part of your diet without it
sort of taking over.
I think the fact is
that a lot of people
are very used to eating meat,
who maybe have had something
happen in their life
that has made it
so that they are
having a change,
having to go on food stamps
say for the first time,
that yes you might sort
of start out buying
your regular amount of meat.
And maybe discover
that as a result,
you don't have enough
left over to eat enough.
So that would
probably be a shift.
But there are so many
cultures that meat is not
half the plate.
It's usually like
1/15 of the plate.
It's just sort of
a part of the dish.
And so it's something
that's actually
pretty unique in the world
that we eat the amount of meat
that we do.
I think it's not about
sort of thinking, oh man,
I don't get any meat anymore.
It's about replacing that with
stuff that you're excited about
and giving it a try.
And then hopefully
realizing that the food
that you're going to eat is
just as satisfying and just as
interesting.
And for me fruits and
vegetables are actually
a lot more exciting and
hold a lot more potential
of interesting flavor
than the meat really does.
And so when you create menus and
food with fruits and vegetables
as the organizing
principle, I think
you're going to be
really excited by it.
GAIL SIMMONS: And from a
health standpoint, better off.
LEANNE BROWN: Yeah.
GAIL SIMMONS: Most
likely to right?
LEANNE BROWN: Yeah.
We all know we need more
fruits and vegetables.
GAIL SIMMONS: Protein Is
not the same thing as meat.
LEANNE BROWN: Eggs are protein.
GAIL SIMMONS: Right.
And beans are protein.
And there's a lot of ways to get
great protein without focusing
on meat.
I think.
And you discuss that a
lot in the book actually.
LEANNE BROWN: Hey, Eric.
ERIC: Hey.
Any thoughts on how the
food industry could help
meet these goals as well?
Changes they could make.
For instance, I know
that sometimes people
who are low on money
are also low on time.
And cooking from
scratch takes time.
I'm a big Trader Joe's,
not for the prepared food
because they kind of like
take a whole butternut squash
and cut it into
little cubes for me.
Do you have any other thoughts
that have come up in your work
around how the industry
can help meet you halfway
in getting people
to do more cooking.
LEANNE BROWN: I think it's
a great point you bring up.
I really like that as
well, like those sorts
of taking basic foods, and
just half preparing them.
Not going the full
way where you're
getting your frozen samosas.
But the cubed butternut squash.
The problem is often that those
also come with a cost increase,
right?
Because it's like
the bags of spinach
that are prewashed
and beautiful.
They're double the price
of a bunch of spinach.
And I mean that's one of
those basic tips is usually
the more work you
have to do to it,
the cheaper it's going to be.
But if there is a way to sort
of to use scale to make it so
those are more accessible,
then absolutely.
Gail, do you want to talk
about the grocery store
that you were talking about?
GAIL SIMMONS: Yeah.
Quickly, there was a man
who worked at Trader Joe's
for 30 years and he was the
president by the time he left.
And he left a few years ago to
start a company called, Daily
Table, DailyTable.org.
You can read about it.
And right now it's sort of
in beta in Massachusetts,
in Dorchester, Massachusetts.
It is a grocery store that
takes in all of the almost
at the point of not being able
to sell produce and perishable
food from grocery stores and
retailers across the country
and brings it to their store.
So their shelves are
constantly being turned over
and they buy smaller amounts of
stuff that may be in two days
from now, a big grocery chain
wouldn't be able to sell.
And sells it at
deep, deep discounts.
And they open in food desert.
They open in communities
that don't have access
to other grocery stores.
And so that thinking,
that idea I think--
and I have every
ounce of confidence
that this model
will really take off
and he'll be able to build a
chain across the country of it
because it's extraordinary--
it has allowed people
on limited budgets of
any kind to have access
to fresh fruits or
vegetables in a way
that they never have before.
Because the other
piece of the puzzle
that we've all sort of skirted
around and talked about that's
so connected and there's so many
sides to this is food waste.
And that's also part of the
problem, that we as a nation
are wasting 30% of the
food that we produce.
And that has to change in order
for costs to come down as well.
LEANNE BROWN: Right.
Well, I mean that's
actually why the Food Stamps
program came to be.
Was actually because of
the crisis in America
there is so much food
available, but it's not
going to where it's needed.
GAIL SIMMONS: And
that's still the issue.
The issue is not
that there isn't
enough food in this country.
LEANNE BROWN: It's a
distribution problem.
GAIL SIMMONS: It's a
distribution issues, exactly.
And it's a government subsidy
issue to some extent as well.
AUDIENCE: Thank you,
guys, again, for coming.
This has been really great.
I have a question about what
happened once you start gaining
momentum and popularity.
Did other experts or people
working in this space
try to jump in on
your cookbook and get
their recipes or
their ideas involved?
LEANNE BROWN: Not really.
I mean I had a tremendous
amount of encouragement
from other people.
Yeah, I mean people send
me recipes sometimes.
Or will say, hey,
you're missing this.
You should have this.
But I have to sort of take
that with a grain of salt
and go like, well,
what is my wider goal?
But no, people were incredibly
kind to me actually I think.
Because I think this issue
is really, really important
to everyone.
Yeah, people were
just tremendously
encouraging to be honest.
AUDIENCE: I'm surprised.
LEANNE BROWN: I
know it's very cool.
GAIL SIMMONS: Have
faith in humanity.
LEANNE BROWN: Gave me so much
faith in humanity actually,
overall.
Not just experts, but just
the Kickstarter itself.
People care about this issue
enormously, but we all I think,
feel, and I frequently feel,
like unsure in the face of it.
It's such a big problem.
GAIL SIMMONS: Overwhelmed
by how we can actually
do anything as individuals.
LEANNE BROWN: Exactly.
And in a way we can't
do a lot as individuals.
And that's a fact.
It's large policy shifts
that will make an impact,
but we want to help
with these things.
And so I think supporting
the Kickstarter,
sort of being able to get this
book out to some more people,
being able to sort of point to
this as some type of evidence,
as some sort of piece of hope,
meant a lot to a lot of people.
And they were willing to
put their money behind it
and put their confidence behind
it and let more people know,
so that it spread.
And to me that just
shows awesome things.
GAIL SIMMONS: Well,
it's empowering.
It's empowering for people
like us who want to help,
but don't know how.
And I think it's empowering to
the people who this book was
originally conceived for
because it gives them a tool
that they'd otherwise not have.
And it gives us all a voice and
makes us more aware of an issue
that we wouldn't otherwise
have the information
and channel to learn about.
You are inspiring us.
No, in truth.
Thank you so much.
LEANNE BROWN: Thank you.
GAIL SIMMONS: One more question?
AUDIENCE: Hi, thanks
for coming again.
I was just wondering if you
had a specific audience in mind
when you were
writing the cookbook.
More specifically, whether it
was for singles or for people
supporting families
because as a single person,
I find it difficult
to go grocery shopping
and difficult to
cook for one person.
Either you're cooking
a lot of the same thing
and it gets boring.
Or things tend to go bad quicker
because you're not consuming it
fast enough.
LEANNE BROWN: Yeah, totally.
Great question actually.
So, so many cookbooks are
really designed for people
with families,
which is important I
think because it's a big issue.
And it I think it
feels more acute.
It's like, oh my gosh, I have
all these people to feed.
Ugh.
But I really wanted for everyone
with every kind of family size
with all kinds of
backgrounds to be
able to recognize something
of themselves in this.
And so I really tried to
make it as open as possible.
And I actually thought a
lot about single people
because I feel like
they're less catered to,
which is very important.
Because it's so difficult
when you have very little,
like you cannot take advantage
of a lot of the sort of scale
things that can help, if
you have a larger family.
You know it can feel very
demoralizing to sometimes
to cook for one or to eat the
same thing over and over again.
That's one of the
reasons I have a lot of,
here's how to use
up leftovers, here's
how to kind of create a
few different things that
have the same basic five
things over and over.
I have a lot of that
kind of information
because I think
that's a big deal.
I have the stuff
on toast section.
Is like that's what I
eat when Dan's away,
or when I'm just on my own,
or when he stays late and eats
at Google all the time.
And I've heard from a lot
of people who are also
single who said, oh
my gosh, thank you
for like giving me permission
to have this be a meal.
And that's actually
a big thing, is
we can eat whatever we
want at any time of day.
It doesn't matter.
Like that's one of the
awesome things about cooking.
You do not have to have a
meat with two vegetables
and that's your dinner.
Otherwise, you're
not doing it right.
There are so many different
things that we can eat.
And I think sometimes you
just need a little nudge
and a reminder that
that's totally OK.
And so long as you're enjoying
it that hopefully you're
eating a reasonable number
of fruits and vegetables,
you're fine.
And sometimes that means
eating really, really simply.
So I tried to design it
very much to have people
from all walks of life be
able to recognize themselves.
And that means to some
extent, that it's not
for any one group of people.
And so I'm always
shocked when people say,
I've tried every single
thing in the book.
I'm like, really?
Because I think that people
will take it and go like,
OK, there's five recipes in here
that I really like, whatever.
But I can't remember where
I was going with this.
GAIL SIMMONS: There's
something for everyone.
LEANNE BROWN: I hope there's
something for everyone.
A few weeks ago, I
had someone come up
at another event I was doing and
said, you know the Roti in here
is something that
we've made as a family
because we're from the Caribbean
and we've made it for years.
And that made us feel so
excited about this book.
That this was something that we
made in our home and so maybe
there were some other ideas.
And I think that's just a
very natural response is
if you see something,
you're like, hey,
I know what that
is, I like that, it
makes you trust and be
interested in the rest
of the book.
And so I just wanted it to
be as inviting as possible.
GAIL SIMMONS: Including Awesome.
AUDIENCE: Thank you.
LEANNE BROWN: You're welcome.
GAIL SIMMONS: I think that's
all we have time for today.
Thanks for joining
us on your lunch.
I know--
LEANNE BROWN: Thanks, guys.
GAIL SIMMONS: --that
everyone has a busy day.
LEANNE BROWN: I'll let
you get back to work.
GAIL SIMMONS: Thanks guys.
Thank you.
LEANNE BROWN: Thank you.
