The Chinese Communist Party has colonized
regions
that once belonged to other cultures...
Like Xinjiang, where Uighurs live.
And Tibet, where Tibetans live.
But did you know about “Southern Mongolia”?
Welcome back to China Uncensored.
I’m Chris Chappell.
The country of Mongolia.
It’s famous for horseback riding, yurts,
and throat singing.
But there’s a second Mongolia:
Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region,
which is a province of China.
And it’s famous for human rights abuses.
Well, not so famous for that actually,
and that’s part of the problem.
Matt Gnaizda sat down with Enghebatu Togochog
from the Southern Mongolian Human Rights Information
Center
to learn more.
Thanks for joining me today Enghebatu.
You're welcome.
So there are really two Mongolias.
There's the country of Mongolia
and the Chinese Region of Inner Mongolia
or what you call Southern Mongolia.
Correct.
I mean, besides obviously one being a country
and one being a province of China,
what are the big differences?
Well, I started with, they were one nation.
There is no two to Mongolia.
It was the only start in 1949,
when the People's Republic of China was established.
Southern Mongolia, also known as Inner Mongolia,
was annexed to China.
So in history, they are a part of the greater
Mongolian nation.
Right?
I mean under the Qing Dynasty,
if you look at maps from the height of the
Qing Dynasty,
which was like was 1644 to 1911,
Correct.
the entire Mongolia was part of China at the
time.
Well-
According to the maps, right?
Well, according to the map, there is a lot
of issue with those maps
and then there's a lot of problem with the
terminology
that are used by many scholars even in the
West.
For example, Qing Dynasty is not Chinese.
It's Manchu's Qing.
It's not China's Qing, right?
So, well more precisely actually,
Qing Dynasty is a joint rule of a Mongolians
and the Manchu over the larger territory.
Not only including China,
but also many other territories including
Mongolia.
It was a part of a Qing, so-
I mean the Manchus had actually taken over
part of Mongolia
before they moved into the rest of China.
Well, they were ...
Before 1644, Manchus and Mongolians were,
they were neighbors and they had a very good
relationship.
Especially at the Manchu with Southern Mongolia,
Eastern part of Southern Mongolia.
Well, they had a very close relationship.
And so even the founder of a Qing Dynasty,
Nurhaci himself,
claimed himself as a descendant of a Mongolian
Khan, Temür Khan.
So they, at the beginning of the Qing Dynasty,
it was really ...
Manchus really consider themselves as
a legitimate descendant of Mongolian nation.
So really China has been part of Mongolia
for hundreds of years.
Yes.
That was during the Mongolian empire of China
was just one province of a greater Mongolian-
Well let's say China's been part of Mongolia
since ancient times.
Right?
That's the way to phrase it, I think.
But now the Chinese are claiming that the
Mongolia
and not only Mongolia, Tibetan,
and also we were also a part of China from
a long time ago.
Since the few thousand years ago.
But which is not true.
I mean the Mongolia actually is a separate
nation.
If you look at the history between Mongolia
and China,
right?
There's a great wall between Mongolia and
China.
Right, the Great Wall is sort of at the Southern
border
of what today is the Chinese Inner Mongolia.
Yes.
Great Wall is actually the real true historical
boundary
between the Mongolian nation and Chinese nations.And
not only the national boundary,
but also it's a boundary of two civilizations.
North of the Great Wall is nomadic civilization,
which is totally different
from the agricultural civilization in that
South.
And not only that, also it's a boundary of
two different climate.
If you look at the climate of Mongolian Plateau,
which is totally different from Chinese.
So it's a real historical boundary
between Mongolian nation and Chinese nation.
Yeah.
And I didn't actually know this until I met
you.
I met you at a Tibetan event.
And it kind of struck me
that maybe what Mongolians and people in
the Chinese Region of Inner Mongolia are going
through,
is a little bit similar to what Tibetans
and the Uighur Muslims in Xinjiang are going
through
in terms of being separate with languages
and separate culture, separate identity,
regions that have historically not been
part of the Chinese Heartland.
Right.
So, yes.
First of all, the term,
I would like to say a few words on that.
The terminology that you use Inner Mongolia.
You also use a terminology aside Mongolia-
They call it Nei Menggu.
Yes Nei Menggu.
The term Inner Mongolia is highly propagandistic.
And it's highly sinocentric terminology of
...
And direct translation of the Chinese term
called Nei Menggu.
It's implying that, this part of Mongolia
is a integral part of China
or inner part of China.
So that's ... There's a territorial claim
with this terminology.
And then on the other hand,
if you look at the history of Mongolia,
if you look at the map of a Mongolia,
so when you say inner,
you are standing in Beijing or Heartland of
China
and then it looks to the Chinese, it's, yeah,
the Southern Mongolia looks in there and then
Northern Mongolia
looks like a outer.
But if you look at the ...
If you stand in Mongolia and look at the map,
then inner is actually ...
The independent country of Mongolia should
be Inner.
And Southern Mongolia is outer.
And actually there is a very interesting book
published
in early 20th century by Danish traveler.
His name is Henning Haslund.
The book is entitled,
"In Secret Mongolia."
There is a very interesting map
published in the book showing that Inner Mongolia
is independent country of Mongolia.
Outer Mongolia is Southern Mongolia.
So it really depend on from whose perspective
you look at the map.
So, but we traditionally never say ourselves
as inner
because there's no reason for us to say inner
and outer.
We just ... The term very term Southern Mongolia,
is from the Mongolian word Uvur Mongol.
We still ... All Mongolians still use today,
Uvur Mongol,
which means Southern Mongolia, South of Gobi
Desert.
Northern Mongolia, which is independent country
of Mongolia, Mongol.
That's it.
There's no political meaning or whatsoever
of inside of which country or ...
This is just geographical terminology.
But now used by the Chinese as Inner,
which is our land in inside of China.
Outer,
which is, outside of China.
That's why it's, a very sinocentric terminology.
Yeah it sounds like the Chinese government
is using maps and terminology as a way to
solidify
its own historical narrative.
Yes, definitely.
It's Chinese, always ...
If you look at the Chinese history, real China,
the Chinese Heartland is very small.
I mean it's mostly between like the yellow
river in the north
and the Yangtze river in the south, right?
Exactly, yeah.
That's why it's sometimes, it's like some
scholars,
even in the West,
unknowingly use the term of referring to Qing
as China.
This is a ... It's good for the Chinese.
I mean, of course they happily take that to
legitimize
their territorial claim over those Mongolia,
East Turkestan and Tibet.
They were never part of China.
The Chinese nation was really small as you
mentioned,
it's just the yellow river basin.
That's their ancestral land.
So I noticed you're wearing this pin.
The blue pin.
What’s that?
This is the national flag of Southern Mongolia.
It's a national flag of a region that's not
actually a nation right now.
Well, yes.
You're correct.
The independent country of Mongolia has a
different flag.
But very similar fire, sun, moon.
Yeah.
They have this also.
But this is specifically for Southern Mongolia.
So you think Southern Mongolia should be its
own independent country?
Well it was and then up until 1949, it was
an independent country.
Do you want to see it united with the Republic
of Mongolia
or do you want to see two separate Mongolian
countries?
Well that is very interesting question.
And then it's a very ... It's like century
old topic.
All the Mongolians, actually from bottom of
their heart,
all Mongolians want to be united with the
Southern Mongolian
want to be United with the independent country
of Mongolia.
That was their dream.
They've been fighting for this for many centuries
at least to more than the centuries.
If you look at the history in early 20th century,
when Qing Dynasty collapsed,
Mongolia declared the independence in 1911.
At that time, all Southern Mongolians,
banners is just administrative unit.
All the other Mongolian banners, just declared
their willingness
to unite with the independent country of Mongolia
to become independent country.
Right.
So this attempt, this movement has never ended.
Even today-
Is this thing because the country of Mongolia
actually can thank the Soviet Union
for helping it be independent from China,
but that only ended up becoming the Northern
part, right?
Which is now the country of Mongolia.
But that never included ... Under the Soviet
deal,
never included Southern Mongolia.
Correct.
So, that ...
The narrative, for example, the Soviet Union
helped-
Well Soviet Union never really helps, right?
I mean-
No, it actually ... It was-
They do like to kill people.
I think that's part of the problem.
Exactly.
It's actual independence of Mongolia.
I would say that the restoration of independence.
Because Mongolia independent country in history
before Qing Dynasty.
So after Qing Dynasty collapse,
it was really not declaration of independence.
It's this restoration of their independence.
Because Mongolia has had been an independent
country for so many years,
so many centuries.
So, yes ... So the independent country Mongolia
is a small portion of greater Mongolia.
Actually if you look at the maps,
Southern Mongolian territory is even larger
than
the independent country of Mongolia.
It's also got a lot more people.
Yes.
Right?
I mean Mongolia, the country only has,
what about three million?
Not even ... Yeah close to three million.
And Inner Mongolia has 20 something million,
right?
So Southern Mongolia is like ...
Well, the Mongolian population in Southern
Mongolia
s about six million.
One-
So that's like twice the population of the
entire country of Mongolia.
Yes.
And then the Mongolia is not only
the Southern Mongolia and Northern Mongolia,
but, also there's a large part of Mongolia
within Russia.
Now it's called Buryat Republic, and then
Tova.
North-Western part of Mongolia.
That's also the Mongolian nation.
And then there's also another nation called
[inaudible] in Russia,
in Europe.
So these-
All the Mongolian Plateau essentially.
Yes.
They were from the same nation.
They speak the same language.
Even today, we have no problem communicating
with each other.
So we are the same people, one people.
But the problem is, they're in the second
world war.
There was not terrorist treaty called JASTA
treaty.
So those superpowers, the Russia or Soviet
Union and Britain,
and then America, they had a treaty to maintain
that status quo.
Meaning, independent country of Mongolia should
be kept as an independent
but under the Soviet Union's influence.
But Southern Mongolia must be kept under the
Chinese jurisdiction.
That's the treaty that really divided Mongolia
into two parts.
So what's it like nowadays to be ethically
Mongolian
living in China's Inner Mongolia autonomous
region,
or what you call Southern Mongolia.
Southern Mongolia.
So, Southern Mongolia is just like Tibet and
East Turkestan
is an occupied nation, occupied by the Chinese.
It's a Chinese colony.
So-
So happy ethnic minorities?
No, there's like the ... We were-
I'm shocked.
Because state-run Media told me that everyone
was happy.
If you look ... It's like, as a second class
citizen,
treated as like second class citizen.
We do not have any basic human rights.
We do not have any fundamental freedoms,
let alone political autonomy.
So the people who demanded the autonomy,
national autonomy, which was promised by the
Chinese Communist Party,
or now sent to jail and consider a separate
test
and their family members are imprisoned.
For example, Mr. Hada, who in early 1990s
demanded the genuine autonomy and self determination,
which is part of our basic human rights and-
Pardon me China calls it the Inner Mongolia
Autonomous Region.
So it's therefore, one of the least autonomous
parts of China, right?
Yes.
It is the first, the so-called autonomy,
Autonomous Region set up by the Communist
China.
And then they again, Southern Mongolia was
always
the Guinea pig of Chinese all ethnic policy.
Including the ethnic autonomy,
which was experimented in Southern Mongolia
first.
And then they realize that this model works.
So they used the same model in Tibet and in
East Turkestan.
And every time when there's a political movement,
especially toward the ethnic minorities,
so called ethnic minorities,
it is experimented in Southern Mongolia.
So for example, during the 1960s and seventies-
During the Cultural Revolution.
Cultural revolution during that period of
time,
the Chinese government carried out
the large scale genocide in Southern Mongolia.
And then at that time, the total population
of Southern Mongolia
is 1.5 million.
And one-third of the population was impacted.
And then-
They killed thousands and thousands of people.
They killed at least 100,000 Mongolians.
100,000 Mongolians.
100,000 Mongolians.
And then half million were imprisoned at center
jail
and tortured and maimed.
So even Chinese government official statistics
support this.
100,000 Mongolians are killed just for being
who they are
Just basically for being their ethnicity.
Yes.
It's interesting because the Communist Party
claims to be the party for all races and peoples
and then they are super racist against Mongolians,
against Tibetans, against Uighurs.
Right?
It's just like they go by, what's the race
of the person
and they persecute these groups.
Exactly.
I like the word, the racist you mentioned.
Yes it is China.
Chinese are the most racist people I have
ever seen.
The Chinese Communist Party, let's say-
Well, if you look at the Chinese history,
right?
So Great Wall is there.
It is the earliest evidence of racial segregation
in human history.
And it is testimony to the history between
the Mongolians and the Chinese.
So for thousand of years,
the racial segregation is never new to the
Chinese.
If you look at the history right?
The Great Wall was built in 2000 years ago
and then at that time they already racially
segregate people.
They call the people in the North as all barbarians,
one word.
And then the Tibetans, Mongolians-
I think they were jealous because Mongolians
were so good at wrestling.
Well it's a part of a Mongolian tradition,
right?
That wrestling, and Mongolians,
not only is really strong people physically
fit,
but also it's a very, they are good at waging
wars
and the Mongolian-
And then the horseback riding [crosstalk].
And the Mongolians are loyal people.
And not only that,
Mongolians are really good at conquering other
nations
and then administering the other nations.
Actually if you look at the Mongolian history
in the 13th century,
especially under the black hands time,
and in that time, Mongolia was actually international
nation.
It was a very diverse and then the capital
of Mongolia
had probably just like modern day New York.
There's so many-
So pizza?
Yes.
Everything.
All modern ideas for example.
The embassy, the passport and the postal service-
In the 1200s.
All these religious freedom, religious worlds,
first religious summit was held in the capital
of Mongolia at that time.
And then all major religion were freely debating.
And then the Mongolia were really open minded
people
and not like the ones that described by the
Chinese.
That Mongolians are barbarians.
No, the Mongolians are very open people and
they had really amazing ...
At that time-
Because you're saying,
the Chinese Communist Party has been inaccurate
in its descriptions.
Like it's been lying perhaps.
Whoa.
Of course.
It's not only inaccurate,
here's a lot of racial discrimination in describing
Mongolian history,
portraying, Mongolian history.
So, right now people in Mongolia are saying,
writers and and dissidents are being locked
up.
They killed 100,000 people during the culture
revolution.
What is life like right now for the average
ethnically Mongolian person in Southern Mongolia?
Okay.
So imagine that, again, this is a occupied
nation, right?
Occupied territory.
So people that are just treated as second
class citizens.
They don't have any freedom.
They cannot claim themselves as Mongolian.
Because when you claim yourself a Mongolian,
when you highlight your identity,
ou can see that there's national separatists.
Okay.
So the kids in Southern Mongolia,
did they learn the Mongolian language and
school,
are they doing different cultural things?
Starting 2001, Chinese government implemented
a series of policies
toward eliminating Mongolian traditional culture
language way of life.
And rural schools,
mongolian schools were completely removed
or either removed
or merged with the Chinese ones.
And then kids, Mongolian children all forced
to study in Chinese.
So where there are very few Mongolian schools,
but it's really crowded.
There's not many opportunities for Mongolians
to learn in Mongolian.
So yeah, there's a Chinese language, it's
mandatory.
So how about the lifestyle in terms of,
Mongolians have traditionally,
had a more nomadic lifestyle versus for example,
farming?
Well, so Mongolians were traditionally nomadic
people.
Up until very recently, there were able to
practice
their traditional way of life.
But again, as I mentioned earlier, starting
2001,
Chinese government implemented what is called
ecological migration.
The Chinese government came up with an idea
that the environmental degradation
was caused by the Mongolian backward way of
life,
traditional way of life.
So that they implemented the policy called
ecological migration
to move all the Mongolian herders from their
ancestral land
to agricultural and urban areas,
claiming that this is a part of their effort
to recover,
restore the Mongolian grassland ecosystem.
In fact, and who caused the actual environmental
degradation
is not the Mongolians.
I'm guessing it was the world's biggest polluter,
the Chinese Communist Party.
Yes, it is.
And then they destroyed Mongolian grassland.
They open up minds and they practice large
scale
farming in Southern Mongolia.
So Southern Mongolia is a very dry arid or
a semi-arid area,
where there's not much more rainfall.
So once you open up the land, the top soil
is very thin.
When you open it up, it becomes desert-
You get a couple seasons.
That's it, right?
Exactly.
Yeah, that's it.
And so they, even now,
even Beijing is suffering from this desertification
of Southern Mongolia.
The sand storm.
Right.
The sand storm is from Southern Mongolia.
Southern Mongolia is only about 200 miles
from Beijing right?
Oh, very close to Beijing.
That's another misfortune of the Mongolian
people.
But there's this geographical location,
there's no option for us to change this-
It can't get away from Beijing basically.
Yeah.
So the problem is,
we were so close to the Chinese,
even though there was a historical boundary,
the Great Wall between us,
but in one, after the People's Republic of
China was established,
they just flooded the Mongolian grassland
by the Chinese immigrants.
So like Beijing destroys the traditional nomadic
way of life,
and implements farming,
which is totally unsustainable.
Right.
And then that ends up causing sand storms.
And now they're-
And then the sand storms affect Beijing.
[crosstalk].
Yes, definitely.
But they never admit that this was caused
by them.
They are saying that ...
They're now blaming on the Mongolian traditional
way of life,
claiming that the Mongolian traditional way
of life destroyed this land.
Well it, I mean it's tradition to blame the
victim and-
Yes, yes it is.
This is a good example of how they blame the
victims.
So what is the Southern Mongolia Liberation
Movement?
Well, as I mentioned earlier,
Southern Mongolia Liberation Movement
has never stopped studying the early 20th
century
when the independent country of Mongolia restored
their independence.
All part of Southern Mongolia really joined
the movement.
And then 1930s, Southern Mongolia set up
their own independent government military.
And then 1945, after the second world war
ended,
Mongolia's practitioning to Mongolia, right?
The Southern Mongolia become officially part
of China
and Northern Mongolia became independent country.
And then even after that, the independent
movement had never stopped.
And then during the 50s, 60s,
there were still in people's mind, independence
is a dream.
And then during 1980s, Mongolians also,
there was a large scale student movement
protesting the Chinese immigration.
And then 1990s, the number of organizations,
underground organization,
of course you cannot have a public organization,
publicly advocating for independence.
So, but there were a number of organizations
advocating for independence of Southern Mongolia.
And as I mentioned earlier, Mr. Hada,
who's the leader of this movement,
as leader of the organization
called Southern Mongolian Democratic Alliance,
he was sentenced to 15 years in jail in 1995.
And then he served a full sentence.
And then after that, he was supposed to be
released and
after serving the 15 years in jail, but he
was not.
And then he was again put under four year
extra judicial detention
in a black jail.
And then after that, he was supposed to be
released, right?
But again, he was moved to another apartment
that
run by the Chinese Public Security Bureau,
and then he's confined in that apartment as
...
It's pretty much as a house arrest.
It's almost like there's no rule of law in
China.
No, there is no rule of law.
So the Liberation Movement or the independence
movement,
I mean because you hear about there's the
free Tibet independence movement
and there's an East Turkestan independence
movement for Uighurs.
Yes.
And then so this is similar to those?
Yes, it is ... Well there ...
Not only within inside Southern Mongolia,
but also outside of Southern Mongolia.
There have been a number of organizations
movements still very active-
Well, you are outside of Southern Mongolia,
obviously?
Yes.
Lucky for you.
Yes.
I'm the lucky one.
Yes.
Well, we are unlucky.
We're under the Chinese.
We were ... My people are under the Chinese
colonial regime,
but personally, I'm lucky I was able to get
out of there
and then enjoy freedom here.
Yes there are a number of organizations still
very active
in fighting for the freedom or independence
of Southern Mongolia broad.
So the Chinese Communist Party would label
someone like you,
a dangerous separatist trying to split up
China.
Yes.
Right?
Yes.
So, is there another solution that doesn't
require independence?
A solution where you could have what you want
but still be within the people's Republic
of China?
Well, this is ...
Actually history tells of that.
There's no other way to become free under
the Chinese colonial regime.
So this is to the Southern Mongolians and
Tibetan and Uighurs the same,
it is not really the problem of far communism,
actually.
This is colonization.
It's not communism,
it's issue of colonization.
So the Chinese Communist Party is a colonial
hegemon.
Oh yes, of course.
So ... But the problem is,
it's not only just, the communist problem,
we have double problem.
One is communism, Chinese Communist Party
of course.
The other one is colonization.
I mean this is just ...
So even after the Chinese Communist Party
regime collapsed,
there's a still big question.
The Mongolians and Tibetans need to be free.
It doesn't matter which regime replaced the
communists ...
Our top priority is how to free ourselves
from the Chinese colonization.
Not just fighting the communism.
All right.
Well thanks so much for joining me.
Thank you.
