>> DR.
FRANCES LEVINE DIRECTOR
OF THE NEW MEXICO HISTORY
MUSEUM AND DR.
ROGER MARTINEZ
AVILA, PROFESSOR AT UNIVERSITY
OF COLORADO.
AND, SONYA LOYA, ARTISAN AND
EDUCATOR.
THANK YOU ALL FOR JOINING US
TO TALK ABOUT THIS SEGMENT
ABOUT THE JEWISH FAITH IN NEW
MEXICO ESPECIALLY CRYPTO-JEWS.
ROGER, I WANT TO START WITH
YOU.
WE SAW THIS PIECE ABOUT ISABEL
SANDOVAL AND HER SEARCH FOR
HER IDENTITY AS A CONVERSOS OR
CRYPTO-JEW.
WHO WERE THE CONVERSOS?
WHY DID THEY COME TO NEW
MEXICO?
>> IT IS A GREAT QUESTION,
CONVERSOS ESSENTIALLY ARE
JEWISH CONVERTS TO
CHRISTIANITY AND BEGAN
CONVERTING IN THE LATE 1300'S
IN SPAIN AND IT ACCELERATES IN
THE 1400'S.
>> THEY CONVERTED BY FORCE?
>> WELL, AND THIS IS THE
REALLY CHALLENGING PIECE.
WE KNOW SOME JEWS WERE
CONVERTING BY FORCE BECAUSE OF
EXTREME VIOLENCE AGAINST THEM
BY CHRISTIAN POPULATIONS.
SOME ARE CHOOSING TO CONVERT.
THEY ARE ADOPTING CATHOLICISM
AT THAT TIME PERIOD AND OTHERS
ARE JUST -- THEY ARE TRYING TO
FIND A MIDDLE WAY.
THEY ARE NOT SURE WHAT IS
REALLY GOING TO HAPPEN.
IT ACCELERATES IN 1492 WHEN
THE JEWS WERE EXPELLED FROM
SPAIN AND FINALLY WHEN WE GET
TO THE AMERICAS IN THE 1500'S,
SOME JEWISH CONVERTS TO
CHRISTIANITY, THESE CONVERSOS,
ARE TRAVELING WITH THE
CONQUISTADORS, WITH THE
COLONISTS COMING INTO MEXICO
AND NEW MEXICO IN THE 1500'S,
SECRETLY AS CRYPTO-JEWS, KIND
OF STILL PRACTICING SOME
RELIGIOUS BELIEFS THAT ARE
JEWISH, AND OTHERS ARE
FULL-BLOWN CATHOLICS THAT ARE
OF THE JEWISH ANCESTRY BUT
MOVED ON.
IT IS A COMPLICATED
POPULATION.
>> SOME OF THEM ARE OUTWARDLY
PRACTICING CATHOLICISM, AND
SECRETLY HOLDING ONTO
TRADITIONS, SOME ARE SORT OF
NOMINALLY PRACTICING
CHRISTIANITY TO FIT IN.
>> THIS IS REFLECTIVE OF WHAT
IS HAPPENING IN SPAIN.
WE WANT TO CONTEXTUALIZE FROM
BASICALLY FROM 711 TO 1492 IN
SPAIN WE HAD 800 YEARS OF
JEWS, CHRISTIANS AND MUSLIMS
LIVING ALONGSIDE OF EACH
OTHER.
THE COMMUNITIES ARE VERY
DISTINCT BUT OVER 800 YEARS OF
LIVING TOGETHER YOU START
BLENDING SOME PRACTICES, YOU
START TO INFLUENCE EACH OTHER
AND WHAT IS INTERESTING THEN
IN THE AMERICAS IS THAT, WELL,
THAT IS ALL OVER.
BY THE TIME YOU HIT 1492 WHEN
AMERICAS ARE DISCOVERED OR
ENCOUNTERED, AS WELL AS THE
EXPULSION OF THE JEWS, THAT
TIME PERIOD IS OVER AND NOW
ALL OF A SUDDEN, PEOPLE ARE
REALLY KIND OF HYBRIDIZED
INDIVIDUALS.
THERE ARE ALL KINDS OF PIECES
INSIDE OF THEM, MAYBE
DISTINCTLY CATHOLIC OR JEWISH
TOO.
>> GO AHEAD.
>> WELL, IF YOU LOOK, YOU LOOK
AT THE MANIFEST, YOU'RE NOT
GOING TO FIND ANYBODY AFTER
1492 THAT SAYS I AM A JEW.
EVERYONE WHO COMES TO THE NEW
WORLD MUST BE CHRISTIAN,
EVERYONE WHO IS IN THE SPANISH
PROCESSION MUST EXPRESS THAT
CHRISTIAN IDENTITY.
SO THAT IS THE POINT AT WHICH
THE CHRISTIAN IDENTITY BEGINS
TO OVERLAY AND BECOME DOMINANT
OVER HOW YOU LIVE OUTWARDLY IN
THE WORLD.
>> WE SHOULD SAY THAT SPAIN
WAS RULED BY MOORS FOR
HUNDREDS OF YEARS AND THAT IS
ONE ASPECT AND THEN WHAT WE'RE
TALKING ABOUT IS A PERIOD WHEN
THE CHRISTIANS THEN DRIVE THE
MOORS OUT, TAKE CONTROL,
BECOMES THIS MORE PREDOMINANT
KIND OF IDENTITY OR --
>> SURE AND THEN IN 1492 WHEN
THE JEWS ARE DRIVEN OUT, THOSE
WHO STAY ARE OUTWARDLY
CHRISTIAN BUT MAYBE PRACTICING
JUDAISM IN THEIR HOMES AND
OTHERS MAY BE SO THOROUGHLY
CHRISTIANIZED THAT THEY ARE
NOT PRACTICING JUDAISM, SO
WHAT COMES TO THE NEW WORLD
WITH THE CONQUISTADORS, WITH
THE EXPLORERS, ARE PEOPLE, I
WOULD SAY ALREADY HYBRIDIZED
IDENTITIES.
>> SOME OF THEM ARE COMING TO
MAYBE GET AWAY FROM CENTRAL
AUTHORITY THAT IS
SCRUTINIZING, WELL, ARE YOU
REALLY A CONVERT?
>> WELL, I THINK THAT IS
ALWAYS THE CASE AND I THINK SO
FEW PEOPLE REALIZE THE
INQUISITION WAS HERE IN NEW
MEXICO.
AND THAT INQUISITION OFFICERS
WERE PART OF EXAMINING
PEOPLES' CLAIMS AND IT WAS
ALSO A POLITICAL TOOL.
INQUISITION IS VERY MUCH A
POLITICAL TOOL HERE IN NEW
MEXICO AND WE HAVE ONE
PARTICULAR GOVERNOR AND HIS
WIFE IN THE 1660'S WHO ARE
ACCUSED OF BEING JEWISH AND
THEN WHEN YOU REVIEW THE TRIAL
RECORD, THE BEHAVIORS, PEOPLE
ARE DESPERATE TO TRY TO DEFINE
WHY THESE PEOPLE ARE SO
DIFFERENT BUT THE BEHAVIORS
THEY DESCRIBE ARE NOT ANYTHING
THAT YOU WOULD THINK OF AS
JEWISH PRACTICE.
DONA TERESA AGUILERA Y ROCHE,
THE GOVERNOR'S WIFE, IS
ACCUSED OF READING BOOKS IN A
FOREIGN LANGUAGE AND LAUGHING.
SHE WAS RAISED IN ITALY.
SHE WAS RAISED IN CARTE HENNA.
SHE IS A WOMAN OF THE WORLD.
HER MOTHER WAS IRISH.
SO, YES, SHE IS READING IN
OTHER LANGUAGES.
HERE IN NEW MEXICO, PEOPLE
PROBABLY DIDN'T READ IN
ITALIAN AND ENGLISH.
>> IT BECAME A WAY TO, LIKE
THE SALEM WITCH TRIALS A
LITTLE BIT, TO NAME YOUR
ENEMIES AND PERSECUTE THEM IF
YOU COULD ACCUSE THEM OF BEING
JEWISH.
>> WE SHOULD PUT IN THE
BROADER FRAMEWORK WHICH IS
WHAT WAS THE INQUISITION
ABOUT.
THERE WAS A CATHOLIC
INSTITUTION FOUNDED IN 1478 IN
SPAIN AND GOES INTO
IMPLEMENTATION AND EXISTS ALL
THE WAY TO THE EARLY 1800S.
SPAIN IS ITS OWN PROPER ENTITY
WHILE ALL OF ITS DEPENDENCIES,
ALL THE WAY TO THE PHILIPPINES
TO MEXICO AND SOUTH AMERICA --
>> TO INDIA.
>> THAT IS RIGHT.
UNDER PORTUGUESE, ACTIVELY
PURSUING CASES OF HERESY.
THESE ARE SPECIFICALLY
CATHOLICS, THAT ARE -- CAN BE
INVESTIGATED.
SO IF YOU'RE JEWISH, OPENLY
JEWISH, THERE IS NO
JURISDICTION OVER YOU
BY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH BECAUSE
YOU'RE NOT A MEMBER OF THE
FAITH.
SO, THIS IS IMPORTANT.
NOW --
>> BUT YOU CAN'T LIVE OPENLY.
>> THAT IS RIGHT.
>> YOU CAN'T LIVE OPENLY,
BECAUSE LEGALLY, YOU DON'T
EXIST.
>> I WANT TO BRING IN SONYA,
BECAUSE YOU HAVE SAID IN
INTERVIEWS YOU ALWAYS FELT
GROWING UP IN NEW MEXICO YOU
NEVER REALLY FELT AT HOME IN
THE CHRISTIAN FAITH.
YOU FELT CALLED BY JUDAISM AND
YOU LEARNED YOUR FAMILY HAD
HIDDEN JEWISH ROOTS.
THEY WERE CONVERSOS.
WHY WAS IT HIDDEN?
DID THEY TELL YOU, FOR SO
LONG?
>> NO.
IT IS A SECRET.
ACTUALLY, I HAVE BEEN
PRACTICING JUDAISM ON MY OWN
JUST BECAUSE I WAS DRAWN TO IT
AND I LEFT THE CHURCH WHEN I
WAS 18 AND I STARTED
PRACTICING WHEN I WAS ABOUT 36
ON MY OWN, AND JUST TRIED TO
FIND, YOU KNOW, JEWISH
REFERENCES, ET CETERA, STARTED
TO DO MY OWN GENEALOGY AND --
>> YOU JUST FELT DRAWN TO IT
AND DIDN'T KNOW FOR SURE IF
YOU HAD THIS HISTORY?
>> NO, I STARTED IN 1996 ON MY
JOURNEY OF EXPLORING, TRYING
TO DISCOVER, TRYING TO FIND MY
OWN PERSONAL TRUTH AND IN 2004
I WENT TO MY PARENTS TO ASK
FOR A BLESSING TO OPEN UP A
HEBREW LEARNING CENTER IN
RUIDOSO.
I GREW UP CATHOLIC THERE AND I
DIDN'T WANT TO CAUSE CONFLICT
FOR MY FAMILY AND MYSELF, SO I
ASKED FOR MY PARENTS'
BLESSINGS TO DO THIS CENTER
AND MY DAD, THAT NIGHT, NOT
ONLY GAVE ME A BLESSING BUT
REVEALED THE FAMILY SECRET
THAT HE HAD KNOWN HE WAS
JEWISH SINCE HE WAS SIX.
SO, HERE ALL THIS TIME I HAD
BEEN TELLING THEM, AS I
DISCOVERED MORE AND MORE,
THROUGH MY OWN FAMILY
GENEALOGY, TRYING TO RESEARCH
THAT, THAT I THOUGHT WE WERE
JEWS.
ALL OF OUR NAMES WERE IN THE
INQUISITION RECORDS AND HE
FINALLY IS TELLING ME IN 2004.
>> YOU'RE GOING TO 70'S, 80'S,
90'S.
WHAT WERE THEY STILL AFRAID
OF?
>> MY FATHER WAS SIX YEARS OLD
WHEN HE WAS FORCED TO KEEP THE
FAMILY SECRET.
HE WAS BORN IN 1938.
HIS UNCLES, MY GREAT UNCLES,
HAD BEEN LIBERATING CAMPS IN
WORLD WAR II AND WHEN MY
UNCLES CAME HOME AND TOLD MY
GREAT GRANDMOTHER IT WAS STILL
NOT SAFE TO BE A JEW, AND TOLD
HER OF ATROCITIES HE HAD SEEN
IN WORLD WAR II, AND FAMILY
NAMES HE HAD SEEN IN THE
CAMPS, AND MY FATHER HEARD ALL
THIS AND THEY SWORE HIM TO
FAMILY SECRECY.
>> ROGER, YOU KNOW WHERE HER
FAMILY CAME FROM IN SPAIN.
>> YEAH, THIS IS REALLY
EXCITING BECAUSE I THINK FOR A
LOT OF FOLKS, THEY COME TO THE
CRYPTO-JEWISH ISSUE WITH A
SKEPTICISM AND THAT IS
IMPORTANT, BECAUSE, ONE, WE DO
WANT TO ACCEPT PEOPLE FOR WHO
THEY ARE IN THE SAME SENSE, AS
A HISTORIAN, I AM INTERESTED
IN THE BACKGROUND.
SO IN THE CASE OF THE FAMILY,
I STUDY JEWISH AND CATHOLIC
FAMILIES THAT IMMIGRATE FROM
SPAIN INTO AMERICAS, LARGELY
FROM WHERE A LOT OF
CONQUISTADORS CAME FROM, FROM
PLACES LIKE ALBURQUERQUE.
>> ALBURQUERQUE.
>> IT IS INTERESTING.
THE DE LOYAS, I KNOW FROM
PLACENCIA IN THE 1400'S THERE
IS A RABBI, ABRAHAM DE LOYA,
FROM PLACENCIA WHO IS OPENLY
LEADING THAT COMMUNITY, AND
WHAT IS REALLY INTERESTING IS
THAT I CAN SEE PART OF THE
REASONS WHY THEY ARE IN
HIDING.
WELL, IN THE 1430'S, THERE WAS
THIS HORRIBLE CONFLICT BETWEEN
JEWISH AND CATHOLIC FAMILIES,
SPECIFICALLY CATHOLIC FAMILIES
BATTLING EACH OTHER OVER
CONTROL OVER THE CITY AND WHO
CAUGHT GOT IN THE MIDDLE, THE
JEWISH POPULATION.
>> CONVENIENT SCAPEGOATS.
>> RABBI DE LOYA WAS CARRIED
OFF IN SHACKLES AND TAKEN UP
INTO A MOUNTAIN HIDEAWAY AND
DIDN'T KNOW WHAT WAS GOING TO
HAPPEN TO HIM.
THIS IS 1430'S WHERE YOU COULD
STILL PRACTICE AS A JEW AND
LATER ON THIS PROBLEM IS
RESOLVED WHERE THE CATHOLICS
FINALLY DO RESOLVE THEY WILL
WORK WITH EACH OTHER, BUT THE
END RESULT IS A RABBI CARRIED
OFF IN SHACKLES AND IS
LIBERATED, BUT THERE WERE TWO
OTHER JEWISH INDIVIDUALS WHO
WERE FOUND DROWN IN A RIVER.
SO YOU PUT THIS THING IN A
LARGE PERSPECTIVE, YOUR LIFE
IS IN DANGER CONSISTENTLY,
EVEN UNDER THE BEST
CIRCUMSTANCES WHEN YOU GET TO
THE AMERICAS, I THINK, THE
TENDENCY IS LIKE, WHY TAKE THE
RISK.
KEEP THE SECRET.
>> HOW DID IT FEEL WHEN YOU
FOUND OUT WHEN IT WAS
CONFIRMED?
>> SHOCK.
DISBELIEF.
RELIEF.
I HAD A VARIETY OF EMOTIONS
THAT AT ONE TIME AND, OF
COURSE, MY DAD BEING THE
CRYPTO-JEW THAT HE IS AND I
SAY THIS ALL THE TIME.
I AM NOT A CRYPTO-JEW.
TODAY I AM JEWISH.
THAT IS MY IDENTITY.
BUT MY FATHER IS STILL A
CRYPTO-JEW.
>> HE DOESN'T WANT TO TELL
OTHER PEOPLE.
>> NO, HE HAS NEVER TOLD EVEN
HIS SIBLINGS TO THIS DAY.
MY MOTHER AND I ARE THE ONLY
PEOPLE HE HAS TOLD.
>> SHE IS DOING THIS JEWISH
THING OVER THERE, WE DON'T
KNOW WHAT THAT IS ABOUT.
>> I GET THE LOOK.
IT IS REALLY THE BIGGEST
FAMILY SECRET THAT I AM
JEWISH.
>> THIS IS VERY INTERESTING,
SO, THIS GOES TO ALL KINDS OF
QUESTIONS OF IDENTITY AND THE
SHOW THAT YOU ARE OPENING NEXT
YEAR AT THE NEW MEXICO HISTORY
MUSEUM, WHAT DOES THIS
CONTRIBUTE TO OUR
UNDERSTANDING OF THE VERY
COMPLEX IDENTITIES AND
HERITAGE IN NEW MEXICO?
>> WELL, I THINK NEW MEXICO IS
A PLACE WHERE NOW WE EMBRACE
SUCH A RANGE OF IDENTITIES, SO
MANY HYPHENATED IDENTITIES AND
IN NEW MEXICO FOR CENTURIES WE
HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT, ARE
THESE PEOPLE SPANISH?
ARE THEY SPANISH-AMERICAN?
ARE THEY MEXICAN?
ARE THEY MEXICAN-AMERICAN?
ARE THEY HISPANO, LATINO?
AND THEN TO ADD ON TO IT THE
LAYER OF JEWISH AND
CRYPTO-JEWISH, I THINK THERE
HAS BEEN A TREMENDOUS OPENING
OF THE WHOLE CONCEPT OF
IDENTITY.
AND IDENTITY IS SITUATIONAL
AND IT IS LEARNED.
YOU KNOW, YOU ARE WHO YOU ARE
BOTH BY WHAT YOUR PEOPLE TELL
YOU YOU ARE, WHAT YOUR FAMILY
TELLS YOU YOU ARE, BUT ALSO BY
WHAT YOUR COMMUNITY TELLS YOU
YOU ARE OR ARE NOT.
AND, PEOPLE HERE EMBRACE THAT
RANGE, PEOPLE WHO ARE NATIVE
AMERICAN OR THEY MAY USE THE
SPECIFIC TRIBAL IDENTITY.
THEY MAY SAY THEY ARE NAVAJO
AND LAGUNA.
THEY MAY SAY, THEY ARE SAN
JUAN OR OHKAY OWINGEH NOW.
WE HAVE SEEN THE WAY IDENTITY
IS VERY FLUID, VERY
SITUATIONAL AND IT CAN CHANGE
OVER TIME EVEN WITHIN A
FAMILY, AS SONYA WAS TALKING
ABOUT, HER FATHER DOESN'T TALK
ABOUT BEING A CRYPTO-JEW,
EVEN.
AND SONYA, IN THE MIDDLE OF
HER EXTENDED FAMILY, MAY BE
THE ONLY PERSON WHO DOES THAT.
>> WHY DOES THAT STILL EXIST?
DO YOU WANT TO ANSWER THAT?
WHY IS THAT STILL A PROBLEM?
YOU SAY YOU'RE JEWISH.
>> I THINK RIGHT NOW BECAUSE
THERE IS SO MUCH RESEARCH ON
SO MANY DIFFERENT LEVELS WITH
THIS PHENOMENA, IF YOU HAVE
IF YOU HAVE BRCA-1.
>> THAT IS A DNA TEST; RIGHT?
WE SHOULD BE CLEAR ABOUT THAT
YOU CAN GET A DNA TEST TO
DETERMINE --
>> YOUR JEWISH IDENTITY, SURE.
>> YOU CAN GET THE TEST TO
DETERMINE YOU'RE BLOOD
LINEAGE, YOUR GENETIC LINEAGE.
THAT WON'T TELL YOU WHAT YOUR
IDENTITY IS.
>> YOU'RE RIGHT.
>> YOU HAVE GENETICS, AS FAR
AS YOUR DNA.
BUT, IF YOU HAVE BRCA-1 WHICH
IS A CANCER THAT IS PASSED
DOWN GENETICALLY, WHY WOULDN'T
YOU HAVE GENETIC MEMORY?
IS THERE THE POSSIBILITY THAT
GENETIC MEMORY IS PASSED ALONG
AND YOU HAVE ALL THESE 500
PLUS YEARS, 521 YEARS, OF FEAR
AND THE FEAR OF DEATH, THE
FEAR OF TORTURE, YOU KNOW,
HERE WE ARE TRYING TO SURVIVE
IN A WORLD THAT IS STILL NOT
POPULAR TO BE JEWISH.
SO, WHEN IS IT SAFE?
YOU KNOW, MY DAUGHTER
CONVERTED.
WE DO OUR PRIVATE CHANUKKAHS.
WE DO OUR PRIVATE SEDERS.
OUR FAMILY, MY DAD COMES TO
THOSE BUT IT IS NOT GOING TO
BE MORE THAN THAT FOR HIM.
YOU KNOW.
WITHIN HIM, HE HAD THE SECRET
FOR HIS WHOLE LIFE UP UNTIL
2004.
THAT WAS 10 YEARS AGO.
>> FOR SOME PEOPLE, I THINK,
TOO, THERE IS A FEAR OF
DISCRIMINATION.
>> RIGHT.
>> SO, IF IT IS NOT AS EXTREME
AS PAIN AND DEATH AND
PERSECUTION, THERE IS THIS
FEAR OF DISCRIMINATION.
IT IS LIKE, WITH THEM, WHAT
DOES IT MEAN TO BE JEWISH?
IT MEANS I AM DIFFERENT.
IT MEANS I DON'T BELIEVE IN
THE THINGS MY FAMILY BELIEVE.
I DON'T BELIEVE IN THE SAVIOR.
I BELIEVE THAT THE MESSIAH
HASN'T COME YET.
>> SO, THERE HAS BEEN A VAST
UPSURGE IN POPULARITY IN THE
LAST 20 OR 30 YEARS TO GET
THESE DNA TESTS BUT IT DOESN'T
MEAN THAT AUTOMATICALLY
TRANSFORMS YOUR IDENTITY OR
MAYBE IT DOES.
>> IF YOU START TO LOOK AT THE
GENOME, YOU CAN LOOK AT THE Y
DNA, THE PATERNAL DNA, OR THE
MATERNAL, AND ALL THOSE REALLY
KIND OF TELL YOU IS YOU CAN
FOLLOW-UP YOUR FATHER'S,
FATHER FATHER.
THAT IS ONE SPECIFIC LINEAGE
AND WHAT IT CAN TELL YOU IS
WHAT IS ASSOCIATED WITH IT.
SO WE SEE A LOT OF PEOPLE
WITH YOUR DNA COMING FROM THE
REGION OF LET'S SAY,
PALESTINE, BUT BEING A
RESIDENT OF PALESTINE, DOES
THAT MEAN YOU'RE JEWISH?
DOES IT MEAN YOUR MUSLIM, DOES
IT MEAN YOU'RE A SIKH.
IT DEPENDS.
SO IT IS THE AGE OF THAT
LINEAGE THAT STARTS TO SHOW
KIND OF ASSOCIATIONS.
>> YOU MAY AT SOME POINT IN
YOUR LIFE, HERE IN NEW MEXICO,
THERE HAS BEEN SKEPTICISM
SURROUNDING THE CONVERSOS AND
CRYPTO-JEWS, PEOPLE WHO HAVE
SAID, HOW CAN THAT BE.
HOW CAN SOMETHING SURVIVE THIS
LONG.
IT IS NOT THAT IT SURVIVED
UNCHANGED.
CULTURES CHANGE, THEY MORPH,
THEY ADAPT TO THEIR
CIRCUMSTANCES, THEY EVOLVE AND
SO I THINK HERE IN NEW MEXICO
IT IS NOT THAT EVERYONE ACTED
THE SAME AS A CONVERSOS OR
CRYPTO-JEW OR HIDDEN JEW, BUT
THAT WITHIN THE FAMILY, THEY
MAY HAVE TOLD THE STORIES AND
SOME MEMBERS OF THE FAMILY
HEAR IT, RESONATE WITH IT AND
CAN EXPRESS IT.
>> TALK ABOUT TRADITIONS THAT
PEOPLE HELD ON TO THAT YOU
KNOW OF.
>> SO, MY MOTHER WHEN I
STARTED PRACTICING
JUDAISM LEARNING MORE AND MORE
AND EVEN AFTER MY CONVERSION,
I HAVE FOUND OUT MORE FAMILY
TRADITION AFTER MY CONVERSION
WHICH WAS EIGHT YEARS AGO.
MY MOM WOULD SIT AND HAVE
LUNCH AND SHE WOULD JUST
STARTS TELLING ME A STORY
ABOUT THE DAY HER GRANDMOTHER
DIED.
SHE REQUESTED TO BE FACING HER
FEET FACING THE EAST.
MY GRANDMOTHER AND HER SISTERS
STAYED AND WENT AND GOT THE
FAMILY PRIEST.
I AM IN TOTAL SHOCK, WE HAD A
FAMILY PRIEST?
YOU KNOW THIS IS A TRADITION
IN CONVERSOS FAMILY, OLDEST
SON WOULD BE A CATHOLIC
PRIEST.
THERE IS MANY REASONS FOR
THAT.
SO, I AM SHOCKED, I FIND OUT.
I HAVE A FAMILY PRIEST IN THE
FAMILY AND THEY GO GET HIM.
THEY DO SPECIAL PRAYERS ALL
NIGHT; THEY WASH THE BODY
AFTER SHE PASSES AWAY AND THEY
BURY HER THE NEXT DAY.
WE ARE HAVING LUNCH AND ALL OF
THIS STORY, MY MOM IS
REMEMBERING THIS STORY.
SHE HAS NO CLUE.
MY GRANDMOTHER WAS SO
SECRETIVE ABOUT HER FAMILY,
THIS IS MY MATERNAL
GRANDMOTHER, SO, HOW ARE YOU
TO FIND SECRETS OTHER THAN
PRACTICING.
IT WASN'T UNTIL I WENT TO MY
FIRST SHABBAT SERVICE THAT I
SEE CANDLES LIT AND I AM
GOING -- I DID THAT WITH MY
GRANDMOTHER BUT I THOUGHT THAT
WAS CATHOLIC.
>> ON FRIDAY NIGHTS.
>> I HAVE ALL THESE LIKE
MEMORIES, PRAYING, MY
GRANDMOTHER PRAYING FACING THE
EAST THREE TIMES A DAY, HAD
HER HEAD COVERED.
YOU KNOW.
SHE PRAYED IN SPANISH.
I JUST REMEMBER BEING LITTLE
AND DOING THAT WITH HER.
>> ROGER, I WANT TO ASK YOU,
IN THE SERIES YOUR SORT OF
COMPANION PIECE STORY OF THE
JEWS, THE NATIONAL, THERE IS
ON THE WEBSITE THERE IS AN
INTERACTIVE MAP OF THE
DIASPORA OF JEWS TO ALL PARTS
OF THE WORLD.
THERE IS NOTHING ABOUT OUR
REGION OR SOUTH AMERICA AT
ALL.
WHY IS THAT?
>> IT RAISES A GREAT QUESTION
I THINK BECAUSE THE JEWS FROM
SPAIN ARE A VERY DISTINCT
POPULATION FROM THE ASHKENAZIC
AND IT IS A POPULATION THAT
WENT IN SEVERAL DIFFERENT
DIRECTIONS AFTER 1492.
SOME WENT TO THE OTTOMAN
EMPIRE, INTO TURKEY, THE
MEDITERRANEAN, MOROCCO.
POPULATIONS WENT TO THE
NETHERLANDS AND EVEN INTO
ENGLAND.
ONE OF THE LARGEST POPULATIONS
ACTUALLY WENT TO MEXICO AND
SOUTH AMERICA, BUT IT IS NOT A
STORY THAT IS TOLD AS MUCH.
I THINK PARTIALLY IT RELATES
TO AMERICAN HISTORY, WHICH IS,
I THINK WE CAN CONCEPTUALIZE
U.S. AS THE BRITISH AND FRENCH
FOUNDATION.
AND, IN THAT WAY, THE SPANISH
FOUNDATION IS KIND OF SHUFFLED
A LITTLE BIT TO THE SIDE, SO
THERE IS KIND -- WE DON'T
KNOW THIS HISTORY AS WELL
BECAUSE WE DON'T TEACH IT VERY
MUCH AND SINCE WE DO KNOW IT
IS ACTIVE AND AGAIN IN THE WAY
THAT YOU COULD BE MAYBE JEWISH
AND ASHKENAZIC AND OPEN ABOUT
IT, SPANISH JEWS COULDN'T DO
THAT.
>> EVEN SEPHARDIC, WHICH TO A
MUCH SMALLER PERCENTAGE
WORLDWIDE OF JEWS, THAT STORY
IS NOT TOLD.
>> ALTHOUGH ONE OF THE OLDEST
SEPHARDIC TEMPLES IN THE U.S.
IS IN NEW YORK.
>> IF YOU LOOK AT THE
SYNAGOGUES THAT WERE FOUNDED
IN U.S., ALL THE WAY FROM
RHODE ISLAND TO PHILADELPHIA
AND NEW YORK, THEY ARE ALL
SEPHARDIC SYNAGOGUES.
SO SOME OF THE OLDEST
POPULATIONS THERE AND IT IS
REALLY THE CHALLENGE.
I THINK JUST LIKE ANY KIND OF
COMMUNITY, WE'RE PROUD OF OUR
OWN INDIVIDUAL LINEAGES.
SOME OF THE MOST PROFOUND
LINEAGES ARE OF ASHKENAZIC SO
THEY ARE NATURALLY GOING TO
CELEBRATE THOSE.
>> WE ARE COMING TO THE END SO
I WANT TO TURN TO YOU FOR A
FINAL QUESTION.
I AM CURIOUS, NOW YOU'RE A
PRACTICING JEW AND GIVEN SORT
OF THESE DISTINCTIONS BETWEEN
JEWISH COMMUNITIES, WE HAVE
JEWS COME HERE AS PIONEERS,
WHO WERE PRACTICING IN THE
19TH CENTURY AND ONWARD.
HOW MUCH DO THESE COMMUNITIES
INTERSECT WHEN YOU GO TO THE
SYNAGOGUE?
WHAT IS YOUR EXPERIENCE NOW?
>> 15 YEARS AGO, IT WAS
TOTALLY DIFFERENT THAN IT IS
TODAY.
JUST TODAY I WENT TO MORNING
MINYAN.
I WAS A LITTLE BIT -- I WAS
ACTUALLY ON TIME, SO THAT
MEANS I WAS EARLY.
I WAS ONE OF THE FEW WOMEN,
ONLY HISPANIC.
BY THE END OF THE SERVICE, I
TURN AND AROUND AND THE BACK
ROWS ARE FILLED WITH HISPANIC
FAMILIES THAT ARE CONVERTED.
I AM SEEING THAT MORE AND MORE
ESPECIALLY HERE IN THE
SOUTHWEST.
WE HAVE DONE ENOUGH EDUCATION
THAT RABBIS ARE BEGINNING TO
OPEN THE DOORS AND IT IS NOT
SO MUCH A SECRET ANYMORE.
THE SECRET IS OUT.
AND THE DOORS ARE OPENING.
AND I THINK THAT IS VERY
IMPORTANT.
FOR JEWS ALL OVER THE WORLD,
WE ARE VERY MULTI-DIVERSIFIED
PEOPLE AND WE'RE EVERY COLOR.
WE'RE DIFFERENT SHAPES AND
SIZES, AND IT IS REALLY
INTERESTING THAT I'LL BE GOING
TO ISRAEL IN MAY FOR A PILOT
TRIP AND I HOPE TO TAKE SOME
DNA TEST KITS BECAUSE I FOUND
15 LOYA FAMILIES IN TELEVIV
AND I FOUND DIASPORA PATTERN
FOR THOSE 15 FAMILIES FROM
1492.
AND THEY DID GO TO THE OTTOMAN
EMPIRE AND PORTUGAL AND
MOROCCO.
SO, I HAVE A LONG LINEAGE OF
LOYA RABBIS IN MOROCCO, IN
TURKEY, IN BULGARIA, AND BACK
ISRAEL BY THE EARLY 1500S,
THERE IS ALSO AN ANCIENT LOYA
SYNAGOGUE.
SO I AM LOOKING FORWARD TO
MEETING MY LOYA COUNTERPART
FAMILY IN ISRAEL AND FINDING
THE LOYA SYNAGOGUE AND OPEN
MORE DOORS.
>> THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR
SPENDING TIME TALKING ABOUT
THIS.
>> THANK YOU.
