
English: 
Hello
Hello my name is Bridget Lardinois
and I am the director of PARC the
Photography and the Archive Research Centre at LCC, UAL.
I'm sorry we are a little bit late.
we have the inevitable technical
trouble getting the event move with everyone in the room
but I want to take a few minutes just
to tell you what this event is about
and why we have put this together.
This is a part of the London
College of Communication Graduate
Showcase and the details of that are going to be
shared with you
in the chat box. If you have any comments

English: 
on this or any other event please share
them with us at #LCC2020.
Also I've been asked to tell you that by
taking part in this life event you agree
that it's it's being recorded
and that house rules are in place
we expect that all the people who take
part in this event will abide by
our community guidelines which are
also published in the chat box because
we have
way over, well we have 220 people
in the room at the moment we have turned
all your microphones and cameras off
so if you want to ask a question which
we hope you will
want to do or make a comment please do
so in that chat box. We will

English: 
Hello.
Hello, my name is Brigitte Lardinois
and I am the Director of PARC, the
Photography and Archive Research Center
at LCC, UAL. I'm sorry we are a little bit
late. We have the inevitable technical
trouble getting the event move with everyone in the room
but I want to take a few minutes just
to tell you what this event is about?
And why we have put this together?
This is a part of the London
College of Communication Graduate
Showcase and the details of that are going to be
shared with you in the chat box. If you have any comments

English: 
on this or any other event please share
them with us
at #LCC2020. Also, I've been asked to tell you that by
taking part in this live event you agree
that it's being recorded
and that house rules are in place.
We expect that all the people who take
part in this event will abide by
our community guidelines which are
also published in the chat box because
we have
way over 3 well, we have 220 people
in the room at the moment, we have
turned all your microphones and cameras
off,
so if you want to ask a question which
we hope you will
want to do or make a comment please do
so
in that chat box. We will
then make sure that the panel

English: 
then make sure that the panel
see your questions The Decolonising
Lens Part 1 is a first in the series of In
Conversations that we
at Photography and the Archive Research
Centre hope to be presenting over the next year.
with Mark Sealey who I am
delighted has joined UAL as
Principal Fellow of Decolonising
Photography
and as part of that he is also a core
member
of the Photography and Archive Research
Centre
which I head up. We have already
planned Part 2 which we hope will be
on the 24th of September.
It will be an In Conversation
with Chris Boot and Mark about
the recent publication Decolonising the
Camera: Photography in Racial Time and

English: 
see your questions. 'The Decolonizing Lens'
Part one
is a first in the series of in
conversations that we
at as Photography and Archive Research
Centre
hope to be presenting over the next year
with Mark Sealy
who I am delighted has joined
UAL as principal fellow Decolonising
Photography and as part of that he is also a core
member of the photography and archive research
center which I head up. We have already
planned Part two which we hope will be
on the 24th of September.
It will be an in conversation
with Chris Boot and Mark about
the recent publication 'Decolonising the
Camera-
Photography in Racial time' and
details of that will be sent to

English: 
the details of that will be sent to
everyone on the mailing list
and on the list of people who signed up
today and of course
through our normal channels.
Mark and I go back a long way.
I first worked with him when I was
Cultural Director of Magnum Photos
and we worked together on an exhibition
about modern slavery which was called
Documenting Disposable People
Contemporary Global Slavery it was at
the Southbank
and toured widely and ever since then we
have been
in contact and but now I'm of
course
delighted that I'll be working much more
closely with him again.
I'm also very very happy
to introduce the other speakers
Professor Gary Young
and Professor Carol Tulloch and Professor
Pratab Rugani who has agreed to moderate

English: 
everyone on the mailing list
and on the list of people who signed up
today and of course through our normal
channels.
Mark and I go back a long way,
I first worked with him when I was
Cultural Director of Magnum Photos
and we worked together on an exhibition
about modern slavery which was called
'Documenting Disposable People-
Contemporary Global Slavery', it was at
the South Bank
and toured widely and ever since then we
have been
in contact and but now I'm of course
delighted that I'll be working much more
closely with him again.
I'm also very very happy
to introduce the other speakers:
Professor Gary Young
and Professor Carol Tulloch and Professor
Pratap Rughani, who has agreed to moderate

English: 
the discussion. I have to thank my colleagues Tommaso Fabricio,
Ella and Luminita
and of course Oisin Davies who are
working so hard behind the scenes to make this event
run as smooth as possible.
The idea is that the three
presenters - Mark, Carol and Gary
will speak for seven minutes
at six minutes I will take a bell
which means that they have to wrap up
and
then around
five o'clock, Pratap will
moderate a discussion between the
speakers
and after ten minutes or so
open it to the floor and we will have
then have fed the questions that are in the chat box

English: 
to Pratap who will summarise in the last five
minutes of the session. We're still
going to try and keep to the time
as much as possible.
I've said what I needed to say and I'm
going to hand over to Mark
who will introduce himself and
we will stick to the norm to what was
agreed
it's Mark then Gary
then Carol and Pratap will take over
thank you very much.
Thanks, thanks Brigitte and just very
quickly it's a
just an honor to be invited into the UAL
kind of community as such and to try and
think about how we share
ideas about moving forward and realise
some of the journeys that we've
been on
kind of photographically, to think about
the work that

English: 
the discussion. I have to ask
to thank my colleagues Tommaso Fabricio
Ella and Luminata and of course Ocean Davies
who are working so hard behind the
scenes to make
this event run as smooth as possible.
The idea is that the three presenters Mark, Carol and Gary
will speak for seven minutes,
at six minutes I will take a bell
which means that they have to wrap up
and
then around 5 O' clock Pratap will
moderate the discussion between the
speakers
and after 10 minutes or so
open it to the floor and we will have
then fed, the the moderators the will have

English: 
fed the questions that are in the chat box
to Pratap who will summarize in the last five
minutes of the session. We're still going to try and
keep to the time as much as possible.
I've said what I needed to say and I'm
going to hand over to Mark,
who will introduce himself and
we will stick to the norm to what
was agreed. It's Mark then
Gary then Carol and Pratap will take
over. Thank you very much.
Well, thanks Brigitte and
just very quickly, it's a just an honor
to be invited into the
UAL kind of community as such and to try
and think about how we share
ideas about moving forward and really as
well some of the journeys that we've
been on,
kind of photographically to think about
the work that

English: 
images do in culture, I think actually I
wanted to start with that really because
I guess that's kind of like my
mantra, it's like what's
what's the work that images do in
culture and how do we kind of like read
them
and I guess part of the work that
from the very origins of Autograph if
you like on the journey into Autograph
is the whole question of how race and
rights and representation kind of come
into the frame
and I feel as though it's been a very
very long journey and one that's
obviously reaped
benefits in terms of some of the
successes that we've had. But I also
think we've got an incredible
long way to go and I also think that's
that's that's an opportunity as well
not necessarily just thinking about
things within the pessimistic side.
I wanted to share really the the idea of
how time works within change as well in
terms of photography and understanding
and I think one of the best people to
look at that is through the lens of say
someone like Rotimi Fani-Kayode's work,
I mean Rotimi was very active in the
early '80s

English: 
and passes away 89
and his work really has taken a very
long time for people to
finally get to understand the
significance of it.
I mean here we have a practitioner that
was you know coming out of you know
Nigeria.
Is queer, is living in London is
kind of a disappointment to his parents.
He's very much seen as an outsider
and he's working with the camera to try
and articulate his kind of contemporary
life in his condition.
He's living with somebody called Alex
Hirst the writer and the pair of them
are in dialogue about what kind of
difference they can make to people's
understanding of their lives and
and their desires and the place that
they want to be in society.
Next slide please. I think it's really
important when we look at the kind of
trajectory of
actually can you go back and just go
back to Rotimi's work please, didn't
realise we've gone there
very important that we look at the kind
of trajectory that people like Rotimi
have because I think when
his work arrived on the scene
and this is part of the kind of
decolonising kind of work is that nobody
really understood it. Really people could

English: 
images do in culture. I think I actually
wanted to start with that really because
I guess that's kind of like my
mantra- it's like what's
what's the work that images do in
culture? And how do we kind of like read
them? And I guess part of the work that
from the very origins of Autograph, if
you like or the journey into Autograph
is the whole question of how race and
rights and representation kind of come
into the frame
and I feel as though it's been a very
very long journey and one that's
obviously reaped
benefits in terms of some of the
successes that we've had but I also
think we've got an incredible
long way to go and I also think that's
an opportunity as well not necessarily just thinking about
things within the pessimistic side.
I wanted to share really the idea of
how time works within change as well in
terms of photography and understanding
and I think one of the best people to
look at that is through the lens of say
someone like Rotimi Fani-Kayode's
work.
I mean Rotimi was very active in the
early 80's,

English: 
only look at Rotimi's work through the
lens of what they'd seen before
if you like through the canon as such, so
Rotimi
for the frustration of his work was
always being compared to somebody say
like Robert Maplethorpe
and that's because the black body was
seen in a way that only the kind of, I
would say, the traditional Eurocentric
lens it framed it within
whereas someone like Rotimi was
trying to break that mold fundamentally
and it took somebody like say Kobena
Mercer
and others to begin to write about the
work to publish about the work before
the work could be thoroughly understood
and then finally filtered down into the
institutions
which now are actively trying to collect
the work which is of course fantastic.
Because they recognised the kind of,
I suppose the
the de-linking work that Rotimi was
doing with the camera, the de-linking in
terms of what we understand before,
he was bringing in totally different
cultural readings and
influences into the work his Aruba life

English: 
and passes away 89 and his work really has taken a very
long time for people to finally get to understand the
significance of it. I mean here we have a practitioner that
was you know coming out of you know
Nigeria,
is queer, is living in London, is kind of
a
disappointment to his parents, he's very
much seen as an outsider
and he's working with the camera to try
and articulate his kind of contemporary
life and his condition. He's living with somebody called Alex Hirst,
the writer and the pair of them
are in dialogue about what kind of
difference they can make to people's
understanding of their lives and
and their desires in the place that they
want to be in society.
Next slide please, I think it's really
important when we look at the kind of
trajectory of actually can you go back and just go,
back to Rotimi's work please didn't
realize we've gone there
really important that we look at the
kind of trajectory that people like
Rotimi have because I think when
his work arrived on the scene
and this is part of the kind of
decolonizing kind of work is that nobody
really understood it,
really people could only look at

English: 
Rotimi's work through the lens of what
they'd seen before.
If you like through the canon as such so
Rotimi
for the frustration of his work was
always being compared to somebody say
like Robert Mapplethorpe
and that's because the black body was
seen in a way that only the kind of I
would say the traditional eurocentric
lens it framed it within whereas someone like Rotimi was trying
to break that mold fundamentally
and it took somebody like say Covenant
Mercer and others to begin to write about the
work to publish about the work before
the work could be thoroughly understood
and then finally filtered down into the
institutions
which now are actively trying to collect
the work which is of course fantastic
because they recognize the kind of I
suppose the
the de-linking work that Rotimi was
doing with the camera, the de-linking in
terms of what we understand before.
He was bringing in totally different
cultural readings and
influences into the work, his Yoruba life
and his Yoruba kind of existence had
created a kind of I feel like cosmology

English: 
and his Aruba kind of existence had
created a kind of cosmology
of understanding for him
that he could begin to bring to his
practice and of course if we didn't have
access to that kind of cosmology of
understanding around his work
then it meant that we unless we did new
work ourselves
were shut out of understanding what he
was trying to do because of all of our
points of reference around what he was
delivering in terms of making were not
there for us to see.
So I think it's really important when we
think about decolonising the camera or
decolonising
kind of knowledge, or different kind of
epistemes is that we offer ourselves up
if you like into a kind of rather than
universal knowledge is that we enter
into
what Walter Mignolo and others are
calling the kind of Pluriversal Space
where all these different knowledges
around indigenous cultures and other
ways of being
are brought into the table and they help
us if you like build
a much wider knowledge pool of how we
read kind of cultural differences
or different signs within, I suppose, our

English: 
practices. Next slide please and it's also
interesting how
if we think about the work that images
do in culture that people like Faisal Abdu'Allah
kind of also migrate to different
understandings within themselves,
I mean in many ways I think
building a golden
barber's chair for somebody like Faisal Abdu'Allah becomes a kind of story about
the work that how we see ourselves not
necessarily about through photography
but in this sense thinking that the
barber's chair is a place of kind of a
very special location
for the black subject to sit within
because it's one of the few spaces
within culture
that they can walk within sit and be
cared for
in a particular way that it's a
transformative space
and I really enjoyed working with
Faisal Abdu'Allah on the building of this
chair if you like because
that in many ways feels as though that's
part of the work that we've got to do
especially when we begin to recognise
the question of race within the history
of photography. I think that there's got
to be
some form or some degree of
transformation happening
all the time if you like to turn back

English: 
of understanding for him
that he could begin to bring to his
practice and of course if we didn't have
access to that kind of cosmology of
understanding around his work
then it meant that we unless we did new
work ourselves were shut out of understanding what he
was trying to do because of all of our
points of reference around
what he was delivering in terms of
making
were not there for us to see, so I think
it's really important when we think
about decolonizing the camera or
decolonizing
kind of knowledge or different kind of
epistemes is that we offer ourselves up
if you like into a kind of rather than
universal knowledge is that we enter
into what Walter Manola and others are
calling the kind of pluriversal space
where all these different knowledges
around indigenous cultures and other
ways of being
are brought into the table and they help
us, if you like build
a much wider knowledge pool of how we
read kind of cultural differences
or different signs within I suppose our
practices.

English: 
Next slide please.
And it's also interesting how if we
think about the work that images do in
culture that people like Faisal Abdu' allah
kind of also migrate to different
understandings within themselves.
I mean in many ways I think you know
building a golden
barber's chair for somebody like Faisal
Abdu' allah becomes a kind of story about
the work that how we see ourselves not
necessarily about through photography
but in this sense thinking that the
barber's chair is a place of kind of a
very special location
for the black subject to sit within
because it's one of the few spaces
within culture
that they can walk within, sit and be
cared for,
in a particular way that it's a
transformative space
and I really enjoyed working with Faisal
Abdu' allah on the building of this chair, if you
like because that in many ways feels as though that's
part of the work that we've got to do
especially when we begin to recognize
the question of race within the history
of photography. I think that there's got
to be some form or some degree of
transformation happening
all the time. If you like to turn back

English: 
the tide of that big and long
historical arc of representational
fields that of course photography has
had from its very inception.
So i think what's interesting about the
kind of contemporary condition what
contemporary artists
are doing like people like Faisal Abdu'Allah
next slide please
are using the camera and you're using
the kind of 3D and the sculptural
elements to build this representational
field
that offers up the possibility of
different locations and different transformative possibilities
and as i say it's an ongoing process one
that works if you like next slide please
one that works in a way that builds in
different histories
that allows different experiences to
come to the fore, that are not separate
that are not separated or segregated
and bringing in kind of different
cultural reference like in this case the
Duppy Conqueror
very similar as a cultural figure
in Europa culture as well but also in
Jamaican culture this is a figure
who will actually spoil your day if you

English: 
the tide of that big and long
historical arc of representational
fields that of course photography has
had from its very inception,
so I think what's interesting about the
kind of contemporary condition,
what contemporary artists are doing like
people like Faisal Abdu' allah, next slide
please, are using the camera and they are using
the kind of 3D and the sculptural
elements to build this representational
field that offers up the possibility of
different locations and different
transformations, transformative
possibilities and as I say it's an ongoing process, one
that works if you like, next slide please,
one that works in a way that builds in
different histories that allows different experiences to
come to the fore that are not separate
that are not separated or segregated
and bringing in kind of different
cultural reference like in this case the
Duppy Conqueror, very similar as a cultural figure
in Yoruba culture as well but also in
Jamaican culture. This is a figure
who will actually spoil your day if you
are

English: 
are
seen as a kind of bad person or someone
who hasn't actually
resolved their past and I think bringing
in these kind of
say cosmologies or different kind of
spiritual elements into the making of a
contemporary culture
allows us to break if you like the
contemporary field of vision
allows the camera to become an
imaginative space rather than this place
that simply keeps on locking people down
into a kind of indexical kind of
cartography that actually categorises
people
in a space and place which they've got
no making within themselves
and I think this is the arc of change
that I think we're about to see,
occur if we're lucky. I think this is the
arc of change I think most
and a lot of contemporary artists coming
outside of the western tradition
of photography are bringing to the table.
Next slide please,
and back into Rotimi Fani-Kayode. It's a
place where
you know the imagination and desire come
come
come into the fall and those desires are
not simply
locked out of some kind of pedagogic
space ,they're inserted into that space

English: 
seen as a kind of bad person or someone
who hasn't actually
resolved their past and I think bringing
in these kind of
say cosmologies or different kind of
spiritual elements into the making of a
contemporary culture
allows us to break, if you like the
contemporary field of vision
allows the camera to become an
imaginative space rather than this place
that simply keeps on knocking people down
into a kind of indexical kind of
cartography that actually categorizes
people in a space and place which they've got
no making within themselves
and I think this is the arc of change
that I think we're about to see
occur if we're lucky. I think this is the
arc of change, I think most
and a lot of contemporary artists coming
outside of the western tradition
of photography are bringing to the table.
Next slide please, and back into Rotimi Fani-Kayode, it's a
place where you know the imagination and desire come
come into the fall and those desires are
not simply locked out of some kind of pedagogic
space. They're inserted into that space
so that they help us begin to understand

English: 
so that they help us begin to understand
how we see
how we read and what we do with the
potential knowledge of say like the
Europa Cosmology in a sense.
How it's connected in many ways to the
kind of different types of thinking that
are out there
but are locked out of the canon and also
presents a possible place where we can
do
what I think is the most important part
new learning kind of like trajectories.
Next slide please. So it's not surprising
that you know the
the radical elements of giving birth
from a kind of male
body or thinking how desire works on the
kind of male body through
Rotimi's works
offers up a real challenge because in
many ways I think it's
asking us to do a lot more work than
we're used to
and I think that's the kind of
the gambit if you like, the challenge
that we like especially when we begin to
think about
the new narratives that can be written
from what perspectives
and who gets to tell the story and who

English: 
how we see,
how we read? And what we do with the
potential knowledge of say like the
Yoruba cosmology, in a sense
how it's connected in many ways to the
kind of different types of thinking that
are out there but are locked out of the
canon and
also presents a possible place where we
can do what I think is the most
important part, new learning kind of like
trajectories.
Next slide please, so it's not surprising
that you know the
the radical elements of giving birth
from a kind of male body,
or thinking how desire works on the kind
of male body through Rotimi's
works offers up a real challenge because in
many ways I think it's
asking us to do a lot more work than
we're used to
that's where and I think that's
the kind of the gambit, if you like the challenge
that we like especially when we begin to think about
the new narratives that can be written
from what perspectives? And who gets to
tell the story? And who
importantly is in the frame? And how is

English: 
importantly is in the frame
and how is it is important within
the opportunity that the decolonising
kind of
theoretical baseline offers us to work
within.
Thank you.
I'm not sure who's speaking next because
where we are.
I hope it's going to be Gary. Can I get
confirmation that that is indeed the
case and thank you Mark
very much for that presentation. I know
that there was a problem linking
our universities. Is Gary
able to speak?
Go ahead go.
Hi. I want to talk to you.

English: 
a little bit about
storytelling and the flowering of the
lens
and to do that through the story of
George Duckson.
Look at the first slide please. George
Duckson
is a Gabonese 22 years old
Japanese man who's
found the fourth in french during the
First World War and who
fought for the french during the Second
World War. Here he is, he's called the
lion of the 17th
arrondissement. Here he is helping to capture
an American German tank
in '44 somewhere around
Paris and it's such a good picture
we see him with
what looks like a broken or a sprained
arm now when it came to
de Gaulle and the liberation and to go
marching down the Champs-Élysées, both the
British and the Americans

English: 
it is important within the opportunity
that the decolonizing kind of
theoretical baseline
offers us to work within.
Thank you.
I'm not sure who's speaking next because of
where we are.
I hope it's going to be Gary. Can I get
confirmation that is indeed the
case? And thank you Mark
very much for that presentation. I know
that there was a problem linking
our universities. Is Gary
able to speak?
So, hi I want to talk to you about

English: 
a little bit about storytelling and the colonial
lens and to do that through the story of
George Dukson, look at the first slide please. George
Dukson is Gabonese, 22 years old Gabonese man who's
found their fourth in French during
the
First World War and who 
fought for the French during the Second
World War, here he is called the
'Lion of the 17th Hound Easter'.
Here he is helping to capture
German tanks in 44 somewhere around
Paris and it's subsequent pictures we
see him with
what looks like a broken or a sprained
arm. Now when it came to
De Gaulle and the liberation and the De Gaulle
marching down the Champs-Élysées both

English: 
said you know we know that two-thirds of
your troops
are African of the three French troops
but we see the one by Leclerc is,
they're white guys
and we want them for reasons of
'French morale'
the optics would not be good for
you to march down
the Champs-Élysées with those people. Now there are
documents to show that both the
Americans and the Brits
agreed with this and so they tell to go
get your white guys together
send the black guys home I don't know
this for sure
because it's only been about six months
since I found out about George Dodson
and I'm still trying to find out a lot
more
it looks to me like George doesn't get
the miller and so what you see
and this is on the day of the
liberation, next slide please

English: 
the British and the Americans
said you know we know that two-thirds of
your troops are African, of the three French troops
but we see the one by the clerk is 
they are white guys and we want them for
reasons of quote-unquote "French morale
the objects would not be good for you
to march down
the Champs-Élysées with those people." Now there are
documents to show that both the
Americans and the Brits
agreed with this and so they tell De Gaulle
get your white guys together,
so the black guy's home, I don't know
this for sure
because it's only been about six months
since I found out about George Dukson
and I'm still trying to find out a lot
more.
It looks to me like George doesn't get
the memo and so what you see
and this is on the day of the 
liberation. Next slide please
is a theories of what looks like George

English: 
is a
series of what looks like George is photo
bombing
de Gaulle. We see
him, sorry next slide
hello
We see him just over de Gaulle's shoulder there
as de Gaulle puts down the wreath you
can just see him his arm is in
a bandage, then you see him to the right
there over
to de Gaulle's left shoulder. Now clearly
someone, to the side next
slide please. Someone has told him
that you're not supposed to be, next slide, you're not supposed to
be on this
march and so the remaining pictures and

English: 
there are some videos of this too
you see him being
escorted off the march, escorted off the
parade,
next slide and the slide after that
being forced off and in a sense
when and now the final slide please
he makes it all the way down pretty much the end of the
Champs-Élysées although
they get much rougher with him as time
goes on
and this says a few things to me
as a kind of as a journalist and as a
professional
storyteller and as someone who's
constantly trying to
engage in particularly a British
consciousness because that's where
I live about its colonial past and how
it

English: 
photobombing De Gaulle we see
him, sorry next slide.
Hello,
we see him just over the De Gaulle's shoulder there
as De Gaulle puts down the reef you can just see him,
his arm is in a bandage
then you see him to the right there over
the De Gaulle's left
shoulder. Now clearly
someone here is again to the side, next
slide please.
Someone has told him that you're not supposed to be,
next slide you're not supposed to be
on this
march and so the remaining pictures and
there are some videos of this too.

English: 
informs us that if we if we
spend a moment with George Dugson and
his story
then we learn a few things don't we we
learn a few things about the history of the Second World War
We learn quite a lot about or we
it's a portal to learning quite a
lot
about the African contribution
to the Second World War among the French
but also among the British
and the black contribution if we also
include America
we understand that whatever the Second
World War was about it
wasn't about democracy there's Stalin,
there's de Gaulle,
there's Churchill, there's
Roosevelt all in different ways
either openly suppressing all those
sort of
expressing words so black people it
really doesn't matter if a group of
people can't vote

English: 
You see him being escorted off the march, escorted off the
parade. Next slide, and slide after that
being forced off and in a sense
when and now the final slide please.
 He makes it all the way down
pretty much the end of the Champs-Élysées although
they get much wrestle with him as time
goes on
and this says a few things to me as a
kind of
as a journalist and as a professional
storyteller and
unless someone who's constantly trying
to engage
particularly a British consciousness
because that's where I live
about its colonial past and how it
informs us.

English: 
then you're not living in a democratic
system
it starts to explain
why every time there is a
movie about the Second World War there
will be
someone saying what either 
why aren't there black people in there
or if they put them in what are those
black people
doing in there and that it
suggests the way in which we are
the way in which our history has been
amputated and the kind of
there is the real
and the metaphor of Dudson being pushed
out of line
being pushed out of the story
which is when i think of a decolonising
lens
when I think of kind of what it is to be
the son of barbarian immigrants in this

English: 
If we spend a moment with George Dukson and his story then
we learn a few things though we learn a
few things about
about the history of the Second World
War,
we learn quite a lot about or we
have it's a portal to learning quite a
lot about the African contribution
to the Second World War just among the
French
but also among the British
and the black contribution if we also
include America. We understand that whatever the Second
World War was about, it wasn't
about democracy. There's Stalin, there's
De Gaulle, there's Churchill, there's
Roosevelt, all in different ways either openly suppressing all those
or openly expressing the words of black
people.
It really doesn't matter, if a group of
people can't vote then you're not living

English: 
country
and to try and tell stories and to think
I saw something somewhere saying
recently
about head teachers and he said you
if you can't see it you can't be it,
I don't think that is entirely right. I
think that if you can't see yourself in
it
would be better not just to see your
likeness, but to see yourself in it
and I would look at the various accounts
of British
history and just think where what has
this got to do with me where
am I in this. I said I'm doing a
documentary for
BBC about the impact of Black Lives
Matter on museum
collections and I was saying to a
curator
I don't feel, I've never went
into
museums and thought they were hostile
places I was just deeply ambivalent, I

English: 
in a democratic system. It starts to
explain why every time
there is a movie about the Second World
War,
there will be someone saying what is
that?
Why aren't there black people in
there? Or if they put them in what are
those black people doing in there? And that it
suggests the way in which we are,
the way in which our history
has been amputated and that
the kind of, there is
the real and the metaphor of
Dukson being pushed out of line being
pushed out of the story which is when
I think of
a 'Decolonizing Lens' and when I think of,
kind of what it is to be the son of

English: 
Barbadian immigrants in this country?
And to try and tell stories and to think
I saw something somewhere saying
recently
about head teachers and he said you
if you can't see it, you can't be it.Now
I don't think that is entirely right, I
think that if you can't see yourself in
it
would be better not just to see your
likeness but to see yourself in it.
And I would look at the various accounts
of British history
and just think where what has this got
to do with me? Where
am I in this? I said to I'm doing a
documentary for
BBC about the impact of Black Lives
Matter on museum collections and I was
saying to a curator I don't feel
I've never, I never went into
museums and thought they were hostile
places. I was just deeply ambivalent, I
thought I had nothing

English: 
thought they had nothing
to do with me, nobody
had you know none of my teachers or
the museums
had really made the connection
between what they were doing
Yeah and so
one minute just a problem for me
it's a problem for Britain that we are
all
by looking through a colonised lens,
amputating ourselves from
the broader history. I had to turn the
sound down in order
to be able to so I didn't hear myself
think
so fearing that I may be over time, I'm
gonna stop there.
Thank you.
Thank you very much Gary that was
wonderful
and can we connect
to Carol.

English: 
to do with me. Nobody had you know, none of my teachers or the
museums had really made the connection
between what they were doing
 and yeah and so.
You have one minute, Gary. Not just a problem for me,
it's a problem for Britain that we are
all by looking through a colonized lens
amputating ourselves from the broader history. I had to
turn the sound down in order to be able to so I didn't hear myself
think. So stealing that maybe over time, I'm
gonna stop there. Thank you.
Thank you very much Gary, that was
wonderful
and can we connect to Carol?

English: 
Yes, by phone so I can't see
my images but don't worry don't worry.
Okay hello everyone I'm just gonna
do my thing so can I have the first
slide if it's up I hope.
So for me talking about the lens
is not just only about photography
but about our eyes, what informs what we
see
which kind of follows on a bit with what
Gary was just saying.
So my research has centered on difference
and the starting point for me
are the black bodies of the African
Diaspora
and what i call style narrative, how
we style ourselves is part of who we are,
it's about self-telling and an aspect of
autobiography
and of course it's about agency
and then everything that black people
wear in places where
they are not seen as equal seen as
fundamentally different
was incorporated into the concept of
blackness of being black or of
difference.

English: 
The magic is now as being how we have
taken that context and reframed it
as a materialisation of reason and
the right to be
to belong and there's a necessity of
presence
which I talk about extensively in the book 
The Birth of Cool. But recently I've been thinking but
is it always the case
that that styled body helps in this way
so often the skin tone and that's the
best
phrase I can come up with at the moment
puts into the shade the relevance
of the clothes of the wearer and I'm
thinking about the small
gestures of everyday racism and small
changes of anti-racism
because that can have a big impact. I'm
going to
just make reference to a personal
experience and I'm thinking about the
women
about when a woman who does not have my
skin shade
on seeing me clamps her hand over the

English: 
Yes, by phone so I can't see
my images but don't worry don't worry.
Okay, hello everyone. I'm just gonna
do my thing so can I have the first slide?
Is it is it up? I hope. So for me I'm talking about the lens,
it's not just only about photography but
about
our eyes, what informs, what we see, which
kind of follows on
a bit with what Gary was just saying so
my research is centered on difference
and the starting point for me are the
black bodies of
the African diaspora and what I call
style narrative,
how we style ourselves is part of who
we are,
is about self-telling and an aspect of
autobiography
and of course it's about agency 
and then everything that black people
wear in places where they are not seen
as equal
seen as fundamentally different is
incorporated into the concept of
blackness of being black or of difference the

English: 
opening of her handbag
and moves it from one side of her body, the
side that's nearer to me
further away, this has happened a number
of times before the pandemic
what happened again last week
on a day of leave to celebrate my
wedding anniversary
my husband and his wife was walking
behind me I don't think she saw
him, what exactly did this woman see
when she saw me? What had been said to her that
led to that act? Every time it
happens
to me and the experience on a trip to Bicester Village last
year,
the seemingly small gesture of a woman
clamping a hand from
her handbag moving it away from me,
chipped away at my right
to just be in the public space so in
my monograph Birth of Cool I just
mentioned, I talked about the importance
of a handbag
in relation to this photograph of my

English: 
magic is now has been how we have taken
that context and reclaimed it
as a materialization of reason and
the right to be,
to belong and there's a necessity of
presence
which I talk about extensively
but recently I've been thinking but is
it always the case
that the body helps in this way
so often the skin tone and that's the
best phrase I can come up with at the moment
puts into the shade the relevance
of the clothes of the wearer and I'm
thinking about the small
gestures of everyday racism and small
changes of anti-racism
because that can have a big impact. I'm
going to just make reference to a personal
experience and I'm thinking about the
women
about when a woman who does not have my skin shade
on seeing me pounce her hand over the
opening of her handbag

English: 
mother
and that she that she chose to have
taken in Birmingham
in the 1950s that it can be a sign of
adventure for a black
woman um someone who travelled over from
Jamaica
on her own but for some the automatic
gesture of holding it close on
being a black woman nearby is a sign of
a fear, a fear of attack a protection of the
contents of the handbag
that is by extension personal protection
as Adam Phillips says it's in the gap
between the life she has
and what she wants that a woman chooses
about I really want to talk about
I'm talking about this one object and
what it means for one woman
and means for another and what I
think however
the kind of racist attack and
what is interesting with these
bag incidents happen I no longer see the
owner but it's the memory of the

English: 
and moves it from one side of her body,
the side that's nearer to me,
further away this has happened a number
of times before the pandemic.
What happened last again last week
 on a day of leave to celebrate my
wedding anniversary. A husband and his wife was walking
behind me, I don't think she saw
him , what exactly did this woman see
when she saw me? What had said just said because what has
been said to her that led to that act?  Every time
it happened to me and the worst bit experience was a
solo trip to Bicester Village last year.
The seemingly small gesture of a woman
clamping her hand on her handbag moving it away from me
chipped away at my right to just be in
the public space.
So in my monograph that is cool, I just
mentioned I talked about the importance
of a handbag in relation to this photograph of my

English: 
mother and that she chose to have
taken in Birmingham in the 1950's that it can be a sign of
adventure for a black woman, someone who traveled over from
Jamaica on her own but for some the automatic
gesture of holding it close on
being a black woman nearby is a sign of
a fear, of fear of attack, a protection of the
contents of the handbag that is by extension personal protection
and as Adam Phillips says it's in the
gap between the life she has
and what she wants that a woman chooses
about I really want to talk about.
I'm talking about this one object and what it means for one woman,
it might mean for another and what I
think however
the kind of racist attack and
what is interesting with these
bag incidents happen, I no longer see the
owner but it's the memory of the

English: 
of the determined act moving the bag
that it's out of my reach. This connects for me
sorry can I have the next slide
this connects for me with the
fundamental significance of the small
everyday gestures of being. Something
that has emerged for me
while working on my current curatorial
project with the photographer Roy Metser
and his re-engagement with a series of
photographs he took between 1989 and
1993
of Black and Irish people in Harlesden
Willesden, London near where he grew up during our
conversation
Roy has said, "This is a disjunct, you see
the world
out of your own head, people don't see
you as you see yourself
they see you as other". It is the anxiety,
concern of seeing that other reflected back that had been part of the reasoning for Roy taking photographs
at that period of the late 80s and early
90s

English: 
of the determined act moving the bag 
that is out of my reach. This connects
for me can show it as the next slide,
this connects for me with the
fundamental significance of the small
everyday gestures of being, something
that has emerged from me
while working on my current curatorial
project with the photographer Roy Messer
and his re-engagement with a series of
photographs he took between 1989 and
1993 of Black and Irish people in Halton
Wilson, London knew where he grew up. During our
conversation Roy has said this is a disjunct you see
the world out of your own head
people don't see you as you see yourself.
They see you as others. It is the anxiety concern of seeing that
other reflected back that has been the reasoning for Roy taking
part of the reason, for Roy taking
photographs at that period of the late

English: 
And this interest in everydayness, I'm
employing
I considered previously through the
larger gesture
of anti-racism, in the form of the Rock
Against Racism Movement during 1976-81
Sorry can i have the next slide.
Against the ground of Fascism as
a National Front
in this article Style Activism and the Everyday activist Wardrobe
of the Black Panther Party Against Racism Movement
in the question of politics, style activism
is the embodied making of a political
co-activist
self and statement whether lifelong or
just one event
I argue here that in reference to the
concept of style activism
the styled bodies are sincere identifier
of the individual within an activist
movement.
Next slide please. I should have talked
about style activism in the preface to
the book that Mark Sealy and I
edited, to Syd Shelton, Rock Against Racism
back in 2015.

English: 
it was through working with six
photographs that I realised that
Shelton's images prompted to remember
that individuals
at carnivals, gigs, demonstrations were
the events
but the choice of garments are
supposedly ordinary components
from an individual's wardrobe to style
themselves to take part in an activist
event
takes on a potent message which Syd
often refers to
as a argument but for me at the
moment
this idea of everydayness of habit
repetitions
supposedly one day is primary to being
and these sort of issues are
impacting on racism
and the way that we respond to
racism as well so i'm mixing up the idea
of
a personal experience and then through

English: 
80's and early 90's
and this interest in everydayness, I'm
exploring with Roy's photos I've
considered previously seen the larger gesture of anti-racism
in the form of the rock against racism
movement during 1976. Next one,
sorry can I have the next slide
against the grand gesture of fascism
of the national front. In this article style, I could live on
'The everyday Activitist Wardrobe of
the Black Panther Party and Rock
Against Racism Movement'
in the fashion and politics style
activism is the embodied making of a
political activist
self and statement where the lifelong
are just one event.
I already hear that in reference to the
concept of style activism,
the style body is a sincere identifier
of the individual within an activist
movement. Next slide please, I should have talked
about style activism in the preface to
the book that Mark Sealy
and I edited Syd Shelton: Rock Against Racism

English: 
back in 2015. It was through working
with six photographs that I realized
that Shelton's images prompted to remember
that individuals at raw carnival, gigs
demonstartions , were these events  worthy of on the individuals ,
who they are ? What they were?
but the choice of garments are
supposedly ordinary components
from an individual's wardrobe to style
themselves to take part in an activist
event taped on a potent message which did
often respond to the graphic arguments so for me at the
moment this idea of everydayness of habit
repetition possibly one day is primary to being
some sort of issues that are impacting on racism
and that and the way that we respond to
racism as well
so I'm mixing up the idea of a personal
experience and then through photography.

English: 
photography that's it for me.
Hello thank you thank you very much
Pratab over to you
Hello hello it's really fantastic to
hear those distilled presentations and
you know my my thanks to three
colleagues of
honorary doctor UAL Gary Younge and
our first principal fellow in
Decolonising
Arts at the University at the
Photography and Archive Research Centre
and of course
Professor Carol Tulloch and
it's so important that we're able
to start joining the dots
between these conversations and I'd just
like to draw a couple of themes and put
it to the three panelists first
we'll do this for about 7/8
minutes and then come to broader
questions
I have to say I don't know if you
can
see me I'm not able to see
any of our panelists at the moment
but Mark if you're able to switch your

English: 
camera on
Gary and Carol please do
interrupt and and cue me because I won't
be able to see when you're ready to
 
 
speak
um but just picking up from those um
fantastic presentations
Mark signals this idea ideal even
of a Pluribursal space a Pluriversal
space and talks about being locked out
of the canon
and now that the three of us and
three of you panelists and many others
in the room
have some responsibility if you like for
the
re-writing, re-creation of a canon
so we might want to look at how we
re-narrate these
stories I'm thinking Gary
Thank you so much for that you kept
you coming back to this
image of an amputation the
amputating of people's ideas, cultures

English: 
That's it for me.
Hello? Thank you, very much, Pratap over to you. Hello, hello it's really
fantastic to hear those distilled
presentations and you know my thanks
to three colleagues of honorary doctor
UAL Gary Young and our first Principal Fellow in
Decolonizing Arts at the university, at the
Photography and Archive Research center
and of course
Professor Carol Tulloch and it's so important that we're able
to start joining the dots
between these conversations and I'd just
like to draw a couple of themes and put it to the
three panelists. First, we'll do this for about seven, eight
minutes and then come to broader
questions.
I have to say I don't know if you
can
see me I'm not able to see any of our panelists at the moment
but Mark if you're able to switch your
camera on

English: 
from history what's good the restoration
what's the process
of restoration that lives there and then
Carol with your style
agitation I think one of the the
really refreshing
reflections of this is that
unlike a generation ago the last
real really significant I suppose
anti-anti-racist moment
for the culture more broadly we have a
whole generation
or a bigger generation I should say of
cultural activists, artists, photographers
fantastic writers and so on
in institutions who are able now to
you know exert their influence on how
to do this better so
I guess first kind of
question is if there's one thing that
you would like to do to move us towards
a more decolonised perspective
what would that be and
feel I can't actually say whoever wants
to speak please
Mark is that you going yeah I'm happy

English: 
Gary and Carol please do interrupt and cue me because I won't
be able to see when you're ready to
speak
but just picking up from those 
fantastic presentations,
Mark signals this idea ideal even of
a pluriversal space, a pluriversal
space and talks about being locked out
of the cannon
and now that the three of us and 
three of you panelists and many others
in the room have some responsibility if you like for
the rewriting, recreation of a canon
so we might want to look at how we
re-narrate these
stories. I'm thinking Gary,
thank you so much for that you
kept you coming back to this image of an
amputation. The amputating of people's
ideas,

English: 
cultures from history, what's good, the
restoration, what's the process of
restoration that lives there and then Carol with
your style agitation, I think one of the really
refreshing reflections of this is that unlike a
generation ago the last real really significant,
I suppose anti-racist moment for
the culture more broadly,
we have a whole generation or a bigger
generation I should say
of cultural activists, artists,
photographers, fantastic writers and so
on in institutions who are able now
to you know exert their influence on
how to
do this better. So I guess first
kind of question
is if there's one thing that you would
like to do to move us towards
a more decolonized perspective,
what would that be and feel?
I can't actually say whoever wants to
speak please.
Mark is that you going? Yeah, I'm happy.
Are you picking that up?

English: 
are you picking that up.
Thank you you know I mean I think
I keep on coming back to words like
amplify I mean I think
you know colleagues at Autograph have
been talking about how do we not
necessarily shout but kind of amplify
things
I'm often thinking about how sound is
how sound works you know
I think you know sonic presences and
allowing those stories to kind of
enter the kind of and enter the frame
the stuff outside of the frame I mean I
think Gary's got I mean I'm also
fascinated with the
with what happened at World War II and
all the kind of liberatory kind of like
moments that
really were disappointed and I think
that is a kind of key point literally
not allowing black people to walk down
the Champs-Élysées
literally days, hours before that they
were in a part of the liberating force
and the height of which that came from
colonels and generals that it's like
we just desperately want these people to
go back to where
you know we imagine that they come from
all those like con constructed places
so i think really the idea is that you

English: 
know if we can begin
with a kind of honest conversation which
says you know who did what where and
when and why and all the kind of
complexities of that
all of what the Empire and all of what
the you know the the
the fighting fascism the face of
fighting fascism really looked like I mean even if we wind back into someone
like Churchill's We Shall Fight Them on
the Beaches Speech
the end of that speech which nobody
actually listened to says
"But if we fail we will have our colonies
to be secure within".
It's really interesting place that we
know we have this other Empire
or these other people that we can rely
on we have a Navy
and we have the colonies that will come
to our rescue the New World.
Will continue to fight for us. Well I
think many ways the New World did its
work.
You know and we're like saying well we
did the work yeah folks you know what I
mean frontline stuff
and now if we can just you know carry on
doing that work within the institutions
of education and the workplace and
generally and break those kind of

English: 
Thank you Mark. You know, I mean I think 
I keep on coming back to words like
amplify, I mean I think
you know colleagues at Autograph have
been talking about how do we not
necessarily shout but kind of amplify
things? I'm often thinking about how sound is
how sound works, you know,
I think you know sonic presences and
allowing those stories to kind of
enter the kind of and enter the frame,
the stuff outside of the frame, I mean I
think Gary's got I mean I'm also
fascinated with what happened at World War 2 and
all the kind of liberatory kind of like
moments that
really were disappointed and I think
that is a kind of key point literally
not allowing black people to walk down
the Champs-Élysées
literally days, hours before that they
were in a part of a liberating force
and the height of which that came from
from you know from
you know colonels and generals that it's like,
we just desperately want these people to
go back to where
you know, we imagine that they come from
all those like constructed places
so I think really the idea is that you
know if we can begin

English: 
if you like break down those kind of you
know systems to kind of keep those
stories behind
and yet the evidence is so there right
the photographs are there
you know the the images are there and
it's just like if we just can re
if we can just have the generosity to
allow those images to be re-read
to become part of the story to stop
missing those chapters out
because the book is not complete kind of
socially politically and culturally
because those chapters are there, you
just got to insert them and make them
really rich and I think that's part of
the work that we've been trying to do
at Autograph
for a very long time, successfully in
some instances and not successfully,
so just stop segregating these kind of
like narratives and allow those voices
to be amplified I think that'd be such a
good piece of work to do.
Thank you, thanks Mark and I'll come to
Gary and Carol in a moment but just to
say
in addition to looking at what's
there and there's fantastic
photographs George Juckson I'm also
reminded of
for example film history so when we look
at the great films of

English: 
with a kind of honest conversation which
says you know who did what, where and
when and why and all the kind of
complexities of that.
All of what the empire and all of what
the you know the
the fighting fascism, the face of
fighting fascism really looked like.
I mean even if we wind back into someone
like Churchill's we shall fight them on
the beaches speech,
the end of that speech which nobody
actually listened to says
but if we fail, we will have our colonies
to be secure within. It's really interesting place that we
know we have this other empire
all these other people that we can rely
on. We have a navy and we have the
colonies that will come to our rescue.
The new world will continue to fight for us. Well, I
think many ways the new world did its
work.
You know and we're like saying well, we
did the work. Yeah folks, you know what I
mean frontline stuff and now if we can just you know carry on
doing that work within the institutions
of education and the workplace and
generally and break those kind of,
if you like break down those, kind of you

English: 
know systems to kind of keep those
stories behind
and yet the evidence is so there right.
The photographs are there,
you know the images are there and
it's just like if we just can,
if we can just have the generosity to
allow those images to be re-read to
become part of the story to stop
missing those chapters out because the
book is not complete kind of socially,
politically and culturally
because those chapters are there you
just got to, just make insert them and make them
really rich and I think that's part of
the work that we've been trying to
Autograph for a very long time successfully in
some instances and not successfully
so just stop segregating these kind of
like narratives and allow those voices
to be amplified. I think that it would be such a
good piece of work to do.
Thank you. Thanks Mark and I'll come
to Gary and Carrol in a moment but just
to say
in addition to looking at what's
there and there's fantastic
photographs of George Dukson. I'm also
reminded of
for example film history so when we look
at the great films of

English: 
the liberation of Paris for example
something like Is Paris Burning
the Black and North African and other
troops were absolutely not there and
already written out over whitened what
we were then to inherit as a European
history it's a part of our
struggle if you like a little bit
like the debate about the Coulson statue
in Bristol that went up during you
know the height of 
Imperial imagination of Britain as the
new Rome you know
centuries after Coulson so there's a
kind of high water mark that we're
that we have imperial history that
created these strategies and now
we're having an argument with the
telling of history not just
the events that happened but Gary or
Carol I don't know how your sound connection
is but can either of you
come in here?
I've got back in here both of you can I
take Gary first

English: 
the liberation of Paris, for example
something like Is Paris burning?,
the black and north African and other
troops were absolutely not there and
already written out over whitened what we were
then to inherit as a European history.
It's a part of our
struggle if you like a little bit, 
like the debate about the Colston Statue
in Bristol that went up during you
know the height of
imperial imagination of Britain as the
new Rome you know,
centuries after Colston. So there's a
kind of high water mark that we're
that we have imperial history that
created these strategies
and now we're having an argument with
the telling of history not just
the events that happened but Gary or
Carol,
I don't know how your sound connection
is can either of you
come in here? Yeah .
Yeah, I have got both of you here and can I set Gary first?

English: 
Okay sorry Carol 
so I kind of I agree with to a
point where he said
"the story's there we have to insert
them" but the thing is that when you
insert them
it changes the other stories right that
the
if the story of the Second World War is
about making the world free for
democracy
then what do you do with George Jucksen
and the fact that you know he was
he was shoved off the marks and away
and he was actually
shot not long after for pilfering I
think for selling on
ration goods, you know what do you do
with the the fact that the
the Americans who were sent to de-Nazify
Germany

English: 
were in Nuremberg both grilling Germans about their role in the Second World War as Nazis and
operating calibers and grilling
African-Americans about
breaking calibars in
Nuremberg that didn't really exist
for black people until the Americans got
there so
they break open when we decolonise
it is about kind of
the excavation of stories that have been
buried
the retelling of stories that have been
mistold and so on
but it also they're relational
so then it does kind of it does change
the other stories you know that the
the story of the joyful parish in 1944
becomes very different when you
understand who was instrumental in the
liberation
and who was left out of the liberation

English: 
Okay, sorry Carol. So I kind of, I agree
with part of your point Carol where you said that the stories are there we have
insert them but the thing is that when
you insert them,
it changes the other stories right that
the
if the story of the Second World War is
about making the world free for
democracy then what do you do with George Dukson?
And the fact that you know he was
he was shoved off the march and aware
and he was actually
shot not long after for pilfering, I
think for
selling on ration goods you know what do you do
with the the fact that the Americans who were sent to
denarcify Germany were in Nuremberg both
grilling thought Germans about their role in

English: 
walk and so on and so it is that kind of
there is that churn they affect
everything else and there is one other
thing that i would say which is that
and Britain is particularly good at this
is the kind of
the distinction between the individual
and the collective history so
British people will say we have not been
invaded since 1066 forgetting about that
stuff
we won the war even if they didn't fight,
we won the World Cup even if they didn't
play
but they'll never say we colonised people
or we raped people or we stole stuff and so there is this constant effort to
claim what is great
and to kind of divorce yourself
from all the rest and I think one of
the things these stories do
when they are shoved back in there
is kind of it give us an opportunity to

English: 
in the Second World War as Nazis and
operating color bars and grilling
African-Americans about breaking color bars you know in
Nuremberg that didn't really exist
for black people until the Americans got
there, so
they break open when we decolonize.
It is about kind of
the excavation of stories that have been
buried, the retelling of stories that
have been mistold and so on but it also
they're relational so then it does
kind of it does change the other stories.
You know that the story of the
joyful Paris in 1944
becomes very different when you
understand who was instrumental
in the liberation and who was left out
of the liberation walk

English: 
and so it is that kind of there is
that churn they affect everything else
and there is one other thing that I
would say which is that
and Britain is particularly good at this
is the kind of
the distinction between the individual
and the collective history. So
British people will say we have not been
invaded since 1066.
We won the war even if they didn't fight,
we won the world cup even if they didn't
play but they'll never say we colonize people
or we raped people or we stole stuff and so
there is this constant effort to
claim what is great and to kind of divorce yourself
from all the mess and I think one of
the things these stories do
when they are shoved back in there
is kind of it gave us an opportunity to

English: 
kind of understand
how we got here and and who we are.
Thank you Gary and it's part of the
challenge I suppose
not just for you know culturally in the
ways you're describing but for each of
us individually
as we revisit for example the most you
know popular hero
in the 20th Century for British
people when you measure that by
different ways Churchill and now we're
we're revisiting aspects of his biography but then facing that
really delicate and beautiful and
difficult painful moment of
how do we hold the heroism and the mess
the light and the shade so that that's, I want to bring in Carol here, not
necessarily on that point but
Carol but what are you what are your
thoughts? Style Agitation speaks to
this I think.
I mean I'm only just adding on to
what
Mark and Gary said and that thing of
carrying on and you know disrupting and revisiting and the
excavation of stories, I love Autographs promotion of missing chapters

English: 
kind of understand
how we got here and who we are.
Thank you Gary. Is that part of the
challenge I suppose,
not just for you know culturally in the
ways you're describing but for each of
us individually as we revisit for example, the most you
know popular hero in the 20th century for British
people when you measure that by
different ways Churchill and now we're
we're being, we're revisiting aspects of
his biography but then facing that
really delicate and beautiful and
difficult painful moment of how do we hold the heroism and the mess,
the light and the shade so that's.
I want to bring in Carol here not
necessarily on that point but Carol what are your
thoughts, style agitation speaks to this
I think?
I mean I'm only just adding on to what
Mark and Gary said and that thing of
carrying on and you know disrupting or and

English: 
and I think when Gary was talking I'd
completely forgotten that I have a copy of it of Picture Post
and it was a celebration with and I use
that term consciously in quote marks
of women coming from the Caribbean that
went to
join the army I think, I haven't seen
it for a long time but the women became almost
you know almost like um
they were on the front page of Picture
Post but
it was about their journey coming
over and then joining the
the forces here and joining the war
effort but I can't think
a bit of that that aspect being covered
anywhere else it might, somebody
can correct me but I'm not sure
that's something that's been looked at
in great detail but if I've got that

English: 
within the revisiting and the equation
of stories
and I love autographs, promotion of missing chapters
and I think when Gary was talking I've
completely forgotten
that I have a copy of it, a picture post
and it was a celebration with and I used
that term consciously with a quote mark of
women coming from the Caribbean
that were to join the army I think
I haven't seen it for a long time but
the women became almost you know
almost like they were on the front
page of a picture post but
it was about their journey coming
over and then joining the
the forces here and joining the war
effort but I
can't think of it of that aspect being covered
anywhere else it might somebody
can correct me but I'm not sure
that's something that's being looked at
in great detail but if I've got that

English: 
wrong but it'd be of missing chapters really.
Thank you I'm just gonna weave in a
couple of comments that are coming in
from our questions um there's one lovely
one here if I don't
name the person it's often because
these comments are anonymous so a couple of anonymous comments but
this one's picking up from Mark's curation your approach to curation takes
its cues from jazz saxophonist John Coltrane which I love
what can we learn by taking the same approach to decolonising the canon
or our institutions?
Oh wow sounds like fun that's a nice question here
I mean I increasingly what I like about John
Coltrane for example

English: 
is that each time I go to visit John
Coltrane as a musician
there's another story within the story
there's another place of kind of
learning within the music
that he produces there's another
narrative at the end
kind of almost as if it's you know that
there's a bass line and there's a
there's a rhythm and there's a place of
being which is a kind of shared
kind of idea of a kind of you know
spirituality through the music he's
trying to take you on
and it goes off in these incredible
wonderful tangents but you also
come back somewhere you know there's a
there's not like there's not a strict
beginning middle and end
and I quite like that as a kind of
metaphor because it you know when you're
in a different mood a different place a
different
state of anxiety or a different place of
happiness or whatever
you're learning things differently all
the time but I like the idea but there's
a baseline which you kind of like start
from
somewhere but at the same time you can
go on a journey to somewhere
somewhere else but also importantly
John's generosity as a kind of you know
band leader in that space that allowed

English: 
wrong but it would be just yeah it's just this
moment again this example of missing chapters,
really. Thank you. I'm just gonna
weave in a couple of comments that are
coming in from our questions.
There's one lovely one here if I
don't name the person it's often because
 these comments are anonymous so a
couple of anonymous comments but this one's picking up
from Mark's curation, your approach
to curation
takes its cues from jazz saxophonist John Coltrane which I love,
what can we learn by taking the same
approach to decolonizing the canon
or our institutions? Oh wow. Sounds
like fun. That's a nice question here.
Thanks.
I mean I increasingly what I like about what I like about John

English: 
Coltrane for example is that each time I
go to visit John Coltrane as a musician,
there's another story within the story,
there's another place of kind of
learning within the music
that he produces. There's another
narrative at the end. It kind of almost as if it's you know
that there's a base line and there's a rhythm and there's a place of
being which is a kind of shared,
kind of idea of a kind of you know
spirituality through the music, he's
trying to take you on
and it goes off in these incredible
wonderful tangents but you also come
back somewhere. You know there's a there's not like
there's not a strict beginning, middle
and end
and I quite like that as a kind of
metaphor because you know when you're in
a different mood, a different place, a
different
state of anxiety or a different place of
happiness or whatever,
you're learning things differently all
the time but I like the idea but there's
a baseline which you kind of like start
from
somewhere but at the same time you can
go on a journey to somewhere,
somewhere else but also importantly
John's generosity as a kind of you know

English: 
his kind of participants allowed his
kind of you know his fellow band members
to literally fulfill their ambitions
with their instruments as well
and I think that's the kind of
decolonising place
I'd like to be and it's like let's let's
let's share that thing and allow it to
allow the kind of rhythm of
knowledge if you like
not to be so structured and not to be so
repeated and not to be so
burnt into us that it can't change and
become much more what's the word
experimental and avant-garde and create
new meanings in that space.
Thank you. Carol or Gary, the same sort of thing. Go ahead Carol.
Are we going on the same
thing to do with music?
If you want or take it where you want
where you want to

English: 
band leader in that space that allowed
his kind of participants, allowed his
kind of you know, his fellow band members
to literally fulfill their ambitions
with their instruments as well.
And I think that's the kind of
decolonizing place I'd like to be and it's like let's
share that thing and allow it to possib and
allow the kind of rhythm of knowledge if
you like
not to be so structured and not to be so
repeated and not to be so
burnt into us that it can't change and
become much more what's the word
experimental and avant-garde and create
new meanings in that space.
Thank you Carol or Gary?
The same sort of thing?
Go ahead Carol. Are we
going on the same thing to do with music?
If you want or take it where you want
where you want to?

English: 
It's interesting because Mark's
into John Coltrane, I'm into Archie Shepp
so it's the the abstraction
and also it is experimentation that's
always brought me to so
that I'm worrying from that I suppose
I think that's the only thing I can really say about that
I think with me with again with
curating it's always about the object
and then placing those objects
and the kind of empathy that might be or
because of the tension that might happen
between those
objects and again for me I do I could well I can go from
jazz and then I can go to Public Enemy and

English: 
Well, it's interesting because 
Mark's into John Coltrane, I am into
Archie Shepp, so its the abstration
and also it is experimentation that's always
brought me to Archie Shepp
I'm borrowing from that I suppose, yeah I think and
yeah I think that's the only thing I can really say about that
I think with me with again with curating
it's for me always about the object and
then placing those
objects and the kind of empathy that
might be or because kind of attention
that might happen between those objects and again
for me, I do well I can go from jazz
and then I can go to Public Enemy and I
can't believe that Archie Shepp
 and Public Enemy and Chuck D did

English: 
can't believe that Public Enemy and Archie Shepp and Chuck D
we're in this very particular context at
the moment and I guess the
demonstrations that we've seen
you know a lot over the last sort of
seven eight weeks
nine weeks or so one of the things
that's really
struck many people has been a different
kind of rhythm of
agitation you might say so these
demonstrations appear to be much more multiracial
younger and with
a broader agenda if you like which has
been embraced by
many arts organisations and universities
much more quickly than some anti-racist
work in earlier years.
Gary is there anything that makes
you think that other kinds of narratives are possible

English: 
now that maybe we haven't been able to
create a broader audience or a
broader politics around
yeah I think that what we've seen in the
last couple of months
is a significant constituency
for kind of reimagining who we are and
what we
might be I mean I was struck when Mark
was talking about
Coltrane and that way when you go back
and you get something else that's never
finished and I often think
when you hear the more conservative
types
say well where will this all end you
know they say about everything you know
they say about gay marriage, what next
dogs people marrying dogs, dogs marrying each other

English: 
a jazz album together because that was
the perfect reason. Yeah.
Symphony but that's it really that's all
I can say.
Yeah, so that's that. That's great I
mean
we're partly, I mean we're in this very
particular context at the moment and
I guess the demonstrations that we've
seen you know, a lot over the last sort
of seven, eight weeks, nine weeks or so one
of the things that's really
struck many people has been a different
kind of rhythm of agitation you might say so these
demonstrations appear to be much more multiracial
younger and with a broader agenda, if you like which has
been embraced by many arts organizations and universities
much more quickly than some anti-racist
work in earlier years.
Gary is there anything that that makes
you think that other kinds of narratives are possible

English: 
We don't know what's next, that's what makes it a revolutionary
moment but that it's an ongoing
process which hopefully never ends
of kind of re-examination and
self-examination and so this window
was opened up
and this I don't think there's an
infrastructure I don't think we have the
infrastructure
the anti-racist infrastructure to kind
of
sustain the message so we have to kind
of hope that it pollinates
in different places and finds a home
that people can then take on
in their own way
because now there was a lot of mocking
of the way that the
institutions kind of rushed to declare
themselves in favour of a Black Lives
Matter

English: 
now that maybe we haven't been able to
create a broader audience or a
broader,
a broader politics around?
Yeah I think that what we've seen in the
last couple of months
is significant constituency
for kind of reimagining who we are and
what we might be?
I mean I was struck when Mark was
talking about
Coltrane and that way which you go
back and you get something else that's
never finished and I often think when you hear the more
conservative types say well where will this all end.
You know they say about everything you
know they say about gay marriage what
next? Dogs, people marrying dogs, dogs marrying each other or you know you putting down Colston stutues, what next?

English: 
and all of that but the thing is that
they've said it now and having said it
we can hold you know we can hold
their feet to the fire.
My fear is that we're going to end up
with a lot of
anti-racist you know racial awareness
training and stuff like that and
not enough actual
root, broad structural change about where
money goes and how it's spent and all of that but
the opportunity has been created and the
the moment is pregnant really.
Yeah and very well said especially this
week of all weeks when
John Lewis is you know the great Civil
Rights Activist
is I think correct me Gary with your
experience
but is he the first black person to be
Lying in State in the U.S capitol.
No one's been honoured in that way before.
Thank you yes first legislator yeah yeah

English: 
Its like we don't know what's next? We don't know
that's what's
amazing about these moments that's what
in some ways makes it a revolutionary
moment but that it's an ongoing
process which hopefully never ends
of kind of of re-examination and
and self-examination and so this
window was opened up
and this I don't think there's an
infrastructure. I don't think we have the
infrastructure,
the answer raises the infrastructure to
kind of
sustain the message. So we have to kind
of hope that it pollinates
in different places and finds a home
that people can then take on
in their own way because now there
was a lot of mocking of the way that the
institutions kind of rushed to declare
themselves in favor of a Black Lives
Matter and all of that but the thing is that

English: 
I'm seeing a few questions
comments in the chat one of which I'm
going to suggest that Brigitte takes up
when we
round up which is requests for more
information
teaching materials for anyone
connected with the University of the
Arts London we also have the Decolonising
Narratives reading group
and I know Rahul Patel's here
and I think others they're listing some
things in the
chat box so that would be useful
I wanted to take us to a kind of
sensitive area
of this conversation which is
the dangers of decolonising as
well as the beauties and opportunities
and
I was reminded Gary I really don't want
to embarrass you but I feel I do need to
say
this when you won the James Cameron
Award
at City University and there was a
phrase there in the citation
that said you in your writing combines a
moral a moral

English: 
they've said it now and having said it
we can hold you know, we can hold
their feet to the fire.
My fear is that we're going to end up
with a lot of anti-racist you know
racial awareness training and
stuff like that
and not enough actual root branch
structural change about
where money goes and how it's spent and
and all of that but
the opportunity has been created
and the moment is pregnant really
yeah and very well said especially this
week of all weeks when
John Lewis is you know the great civil
rights activist
is I think correct me Gary with your
experience but
is he the first black person to be lying
in state in the US capital ? No,
no one's been honored in that way before. Frist legislator.
First legislator. Thank you yeah yes first legislator yeah yeah.

English: 
vision and professional integrity
uh which I think is absolutely right and
I was delighted to be there at the
time
and when I was revisiting some of
your work
I'm looking at your book Who
Are We, from 2010 and I just want to read
one sentence from that because I think
it
throws down a challenge which I'd like
us to take up and then
see how that resonates with people in
the room so this is the end of Gary's
book and Gary says "When the gentile condemns anti-semitism the white
challenges racism or the citizen takes
on xenophobia
they lift the sense of siege on the
other
creating possibilities for the Jew
black or foreigner to denounce
and demagogue
in their own community".
So the moment that we speak up about
in this case
racism or obviously any protected
characteristic

English: 
I'm seeing a few questions, comments in the chat one of which I'm
going to suggest that Rajit takes up when we round up which is
requests for more information, teaching materials for anyone
connected with the University of the
Arts,
London. We also have the decolonizing
narratives reading group
and I know Rahul Patel's here
and I think others they're listing some
things in the chat box, so that'll be useful.
I wanted to take us to 
a kind of sensitive area of this
conversation which is the dangers of decolonizing as well as the
beauties and opportunities and I
was reminded, Gary I really don't want
to embarrass you but I feel I do need to
say
this so when you won the James Cameron
Award
at City University and there was a
phrase there in the citation that said
'You in your writing combines a moral

English: 
vision and professional integrity' which I think is absolutely right and
I was delighted to be there at the time
and when I was revisiting some of
your work , I'm looking at your book 'Who
Are We?' from 2010 and I just wanted to read
one sentence from that because I think
it throws down a challenge which I'd like
us to take up and then see how that resonates with people in
the room. So this is the end of Gary's book
and Gary says when the gentile condemns
anti-semitism,
the white challenges racism or the
citizen
takes on xenophobia, they lift the sense
of siege on the other
creating possibilities for the jew,
black or foreigner to denounce the duke
and the demagogue in their own community.
So the moment that we speak up
about in this case
racism or obviously any protected
characteristic

English: 
is also the moment where we need to step
up to the plate
and make sure that we don't repeat or
rehearse
some of those group projections
stereotypes even the hatreds
underpinning them and one of the
questions
speaks to that saying again an anonymous one, how do we get
to the arc of change
without allowing it to become too stereotypical?
Well you know and that's kind of
if it's effective I don't care if it's
stereotypical
or not really I mean it might not
work as art

English: 
is also the moment where we need to step
up to the plate,
and make sure that we don't repeat or
rehearse
some of those group projections,
stereotypes even the hatreds
underpinning them and one of the
questions
speaks to that saying again an anonymous one
how do we get to the arc of change
without allowing it
to become too stereotypical?
That's quite important I said any takers
on any of that?
I mean I think that kind of there's no answer to that when we get
there, we'll know you know
and that's kind of if it's effective
I don't care if it's stereotypical or
not really,
I mean it might not work as art
but as long as it works as change.

English: 
but as long as it works as change
so I kind of I feel I've just
written a
forward to Native Son, there's a new
edition coming in
and James Baldwin famously
he called it everybody's protest novel
and he said it was you know
trying to fit life neatly into pegs
which I thought was
uh was pretty unfair but I would also
say that kind of um
there are books like that say The Jungle
by
but the jungle is a good example
about kind of meat packing in
Chicago but the fact is that book actually changed the laws

English: 
So I kind of I feel I've just
written a
forward to native song. There's a new
edition coming in and
James Baldwin famously he called it
'everybody's protest'
novel and he said it was you know 
trying to fit life neatly into pegs
which I thought was pretty unfair but I would also
say that kind of there are books like that say the
Jungle by I've got a blackened insomnia
but the Jungle is a good example
about kind of me packing in
Chicago but the fact is that
book actually changed the laws about
about food and that will do you know frankly

English: 
about food and that will do, you know frankly, so there are some people
who want a good change on stereotypical change very you know or whatever it is
as long as the change comes honestly as
long as it's positive with progressive
change I don't think we get to be too picky.
Right it's a messy practice
We're nearly at time
I'm just gonna read you a fragment of
another question
and see if Carol or Mark want to pick
that up which continues this theme and here's
the comment question the assumption
behind decolonising the lens
so reference to Mark's book is that
the mind of the person behind the lens
is by default to colonise
that's not always the case it's a
constant battle to pick and unpick years of lived social and ideological

English: 
so there are some people who want
good changes on stereotypical change
very
you know or whatever it is as long as
the change comes.
Honestly, as long as it's positive and
progressive change,
I don't think we get to be too picky.
It's a messy practice we're nearly we're nearly at time
I'm just going to read you a fragment
of
another question and see if Carol
well Mark want to pick that up which
continues this theme and here's the comment question the
assumption behind 'Decolonizing the Lens',so reference to Mark's book is that
the mind of the person behind the lens
is by default decolonized,
that's not always the case. It's a
constant battle to pick and unpick
years of lived social and ideological
conditioning through decades of

English: 
conditioning through decades of
colonialism what's that process like
well I think you'll have worked
with many artists makers we're
actually we're all in different ways
makers aren't we in this room
how do we work with that inner process
I think am I on here yeah I mean I
think it is
I think that's the key isn't it I think
it's the it's doing the work isn't
it I think you have to just open yourself up to been capable of just trying to I think it's
also really
allowing yourself to take the risk as
well there's something about
that there's something about working and
doing things
that has to be that we have to have the
capacity to make mistakes within
we have to be able to push through and
do things that are
uncomfortable and un not necessary it's
like
it's like being in the being in the lab
we have to be able to be
creative i think that creative you know

English: 
colonialism. What's that process like?
Well, I think you'll have worked with many artists, makers we're
actually we're all in different ways
makers aren't we in this room?
How do we work with that inner process?
I think am I on here yeah I mean I
think it is I think that's the key isn't
it? I think it's the
it's doing the work isn't it? I think you have to just
open yourself up to being capable of
just
trying to I think it's also really
allowing yourself to take the risk as
well. There's something about that,
there's something about working
and doing things that has to be that we
have to have
the capacity to make mistakes within. We
have to be able to push through and do things that are
uncomfortable and not necessary it's like
being in the lab. We have to be able to be creative. I

English: 
so much have created
so many I think I'll say this is more
of a provocation than anything else
so many kind of creative things around
you know
race or place or almost like
prescriptive it's like this is where it
wants to go
but what happens if we don't know where
that's going to go because that for me
is part of the inquiry
and allow and I think you know we have
to be able to make as many bad things as
we make good things to assess what the
good things possibly are
and I think that's and also sometimes
when we're making something in the
process it might not work in the time
we're in
but it might work in the future it might
have actually do
something that we don't understand in
the present.
That that's right
and your curation of Rotimi's work
really feels it's getting more
resonance I'm seeing more questions
and requests for references so I can't resist
the great Stuart Hall and Mark's book
here called Different
and that offers all sorts of imaginings
there Carol did you want to
come in no I'm I'm just

English: 
think that creative you know so much have created so many I
I think I'll say this is more of a
provocation than anything else.
So many kind of creative things around
you know
race or place or almost like
prescriptive it's like this is where it
wants to go but what happens if we don't know where
that's going to go because that for me
is part of the inquiry
and allow and I think you know we have
to be able to make as many bad things as
we make good things to assess what the
good things possibly are
and I think that's and also sometimes
when we're making something
in the process it might not work in the
time we're in but it might work
in the future. It might have actually do
something that we don't understand in
the present that's right and your curation of
Rotimi's work really feels it's getting
more resonance.
I'm seeing more questions and 
asked
requests for references so I can't
resist
the great Stuart Hall and Mark's book
here called 'Different'
and that offers all sorts of imaginings
there Carol did you want to

English: 
I keep agreeing with Mark and
it's that thing of doing the work I'm
just getting on and doing it and
you know I started doing the research
that I did because I
I would I went when I went to the
libraries there was nothing there
about people at the time in the 1980s
there was not many books around
black history like photography there was
so little things that but particularly
could
dress I was a classic student that was
my interest
so that's when I started doing the work
and as Mark says we don't know where
it's gonna go
you just keep trying you know I was you
know traipsing through archives
with days when you just think what am I
doing where am I going to be images that
were so upsetting
but then it starts to come together and
then you can't believe that other people
want to read it or it has an impact or
when you start doing exhibitions but
it's you choose
the the format that you want to use to

English: 
come in? No I'm just
I keep agreeing with Mark
thing of doing the work and just getting
on and doing it and
you know I started doing the research
that I did because I
was I went when I went to the
libraries there was nothing there
about black at the time in the 1980s,
there was not
many books around black history like
photography.
There were so little things that but
particularly because dress I was a
classic student that was my interest so that's
when I started doing the work and 
as Mark says we don't know where it's
gonna go you just keep trying you know I was you know traipsing
through archives
with days when you just think what am I
doing? Where am I going to be? Images that were so upsetting
but then it starts to come together and
then you can't believe that other people
want to read it or it has an impact or
when you start doing exhibitions but
it's you choose the format that you want to use to

English: 
get
the information out there the thing that
as they say
makes your heart beat and then just do
it just do the work
but do we as I said you know without it
becoming
the what was that question of the art of
change but without it being seriously
you know just think explorers can be
more exploratory
as well I suppose Carol as well and Gary
I just want
one wanted to say that one of the one of
one of the things that
the space for investigation the space
for inquiry which is why I think
the University or the or the research
grants
and you know the the this is one of the
things i'm very concerned with it's like
i'm not always going to agree with
people who want to work through the lens
of kind of
inquiries into race but what i want to
do is want to make sure or try and
encourage you know the the research
possibilities for people to do that work
because so much of what gets done i mean
i'm speaking through the lens of
autography it gets done on the lens of
you know deliverables that are out there

English: 
get the information out there the thing that
as they say makes your heart beat and then just do
it. Just do the work but do we as I said you know without
it becoming what was that question at the arc of
change but without it being serious
you know just think explorers can be
more exploitative as well, I suppose. But Carol as well and
Gary I just want to wanted to say that one of the
things that the space for investigation, this space
for inquiry which is why I think
the university or the research
grants and you know the this is one of the
things I'm very concerned with. It's like
I'm not always going to agree with
people who want to work through the lens
of kind of
inquiries into race but what I want to
do is want to make sure
or try and encourage you know the 
research possibilities for people to do
that work because so much of what gets done I mean
I'm speaking through the lens of
Autograph. It gets done on the lens of

English: 
which kind of repress the research work
and i think that this is where the you
know having black professors in spaces
being able to have those research
opportunities
you know really really can change the
field i mean gary will know that
the time to write is really important
just the time to
first thing he said was research takes
time and it was one of those it was like
i like we were all doing it but it was a
lightbulb
you know to remind us that research
takes time and that
thing of the space for uh investigation
and the funding and all of that

English: 
you know deliverables that are out there
which kind of repress the research work
and I think that this is where the you
know having black professors in spaces
being able to have those research
opportunities.
You know really really can change the
field I mean Gary will know that
the time to write is really important,
just the time to write.
Yeah, so I have something as well that
again building on what Mark just said 
it's something that could have been emerged in
a lecture where at Chelsea
and he just the first thing he said was
research takes time and it was one of those
it was like a lot. We were all doing it
but it was a light bulb
you know to remind us that research
takes time and that
thing of the space for investigation
and the funding and all of that and
had the headspace to write. Yeah and I
mean Carol

English: 
and have the headspace to write yeah and
i mean carol is you and sonia boys has
two of only 25
black women professors in the whole of
the uk um
it's really worth just acknowledging
that how much you
uh have done in order to create that
space to dare to imagine
which others can start seeing that
imaginal um
reflection of a future that maybe they
they wouldn't
necessarily be able to to think of
without it so thank you for that we're
pretty much at time so i'm just going to
round up and hand over to bridget but
while i just say a couple of
closing remarks i'm going to um
ask all three of our panelists to
to say in 10 or 15 seconds one of the
gary talked about ruth and branch
changes at universities and the focus is
very much on the arts and universities
and
how are we to do what we now say we
aspire to do
how do we do that better what how do we
deliver that so i'm going to come to you
in a moment for that um and just to say

English: 
um we we've decided to run the full hour
so we're nearly
uh up to that point and apologies for
those of you who
have to wait a few minutes before we
enter the room um
there are many many questions in the box
which we're not going to be
able to come to at this point
but um there are resources which um we
can help
um uh signpost you to um
and also just to really encourage
you if you're new to to ual or this
environment
um do do feel free to keep up the
connection and see how we can
continue these this conversation from
the questions I'm seeing
we've got a whole series of
conversations to go deeper into
so thank you for everyone who's attended
and then just a quick fire round
from the three of you who's ready to go
first
branch changes if you could do one thing
if you were our Chair and Vice
Chancellor now
what would it be

English: 
is you and Sonya Boyce are 2 of only 25
black women professors in the whole of
the UK. It's really worth just acknowledging
that how much you have done in order to create that
space to dare to imagine which others can start seeing that
imaginal  reflection of a future that maybe
they wouldn't necessarily be able to think of
without it said thank you for that we're
pretty much at time so I'm just going to
round up and hand over to Brigitte but
while I just say a couple of
closing remarks, I'm going to
ask all three of our panelists
to say in 10 or 15 seconds one of the
Gary talked about roots and branch
changes at universities and the focus is
very much on the arts and universities
and how are we to do what we now say we
aspire to do? How do we do that better? What how do we
deliver that so I'm going to come to you
in a moment for that and just to say
we've decided to run the full hour so

English: 
Gary go on, it was your phrase Gary you've gone to
to full-time university workI think now
so
well it's fresh one of the things that's
curious to me
coming into academia is that being a
black professor is like being a white
rhino they're just very very
all too few of us virtually extinct so
the first thing you have to do I think
is hire more black staff
or and promote the black stuff that you
have to great positions of authority
Thank you that's very clear
Mark or Carol? Carol have you stopped
laughing enough to
have a suggestion

English: 
we're nearly up to that point and apologies for those
of you who have to wait a few minutes before we
entered the room. There are many many questions in the box
which we're not going to be
able to come to at this point
but there are resources which we
can help signpost you too
and also just to really encourage
you if you're new to UAL or this
environment. Do feel free to keep up the
connection and see how we can
continue these this conversation from
the questions I'm seeing
we've got a whole series of
conversations to go deeper into. So thank you for everyone who's attended
and then just a quick fire round from
the
three of you who's ready to go first root and
branch changes if you could do one thing,
if you were our Chair and Vice
Chancellor now

English: 
what would it be?
Gary, god it was your phrase root and
branch and Gary you've gone to full-time university work I think now so
while it's fresh. One of things is curious to me coming into academia
is that being a black professor is like being a white
rhino, they're just very very
all too few of us virtually extinct, so
the first thing you have to do I think
is hire more black staff
or and promote the black staff that you
have to great positions of authority.
Thank you that's very clear.
Mark or Carol if you stop laughing
enough to have a suggestion. I am managing it.
Take a moment if you want Mark's got
a suggestion I can come through yeah I

English: 
yeah I think the key thing across all of
this for me
is the word value. I think we have
to value
what people like you know Gary, Carol
and Sonia and people like David Bailey
you know can bring to the to the party
in terms of knowledge
then we have to value not necessarily
our professors but our senior lecturers
and we have to create pathways for them
to be
for them for their workpiece values for
it to be seen and I think that is
that's on every level within the academy
within the institution
value knowledge value we have to value
the knowledge that can be created from
different perspectives
we have to collect it and importantly
for me we have to care for that
yeah and I really want to mention the
work of Shades of Noir in this who are
really pioneering
how we improve our teaching
inclusivity and recovering
history so obviously we still have a
long way to go carol last chance
okay

English: 
think the key thing across all of this for me
is the word value. I think we have to value what people
like you know Gary, Carrol and Sonia and
people like David Bailey and
you know can bring to the party,
in terms of knowledge
then we have to value not necessarily
our professors but our senior lecturers
and we have to create pathways for them
to be
for them for their work to be valued for
it to be seen and I think that is
that's on every level within the academy,
within the institution,
value knowledge, value we have to value
the knowledge that can be created from
different perspectives. We have to collect it and importantly
for me we have to care for that. Yeah
and I really want to mention the work
of 'Shades of Noir' in this who are really
pioneering how we improve our teaching
inclusivity and recovering
history so obviously we still have a
long way to go. Carol, last chance.Okay, this is tough but I suppose

English: 
but I suppose it's recent experience
is cross-generational conversations I
think
would be I don't know how that would
take what
takes place but i've just done a project
with a PhD student
at Edinburgh College of Art
African-American
but we came together and and she invited
me we did this performance at
the Fruit Market Gallery but that has
transformed my
thinking it's transformed her thinking
we're writing a paper
together and I said you know you lead
and I will just
follow and it's just been an amazing
experience so again
this you know the younger generation are
coming out
of these issues from different
perspectives but
us older generations have still got
something to contribute
so I think that that's one that's
one thing I can think of thank you
thank you so thanks everybody i'm going

English: 
the recent experience is cross-generational conversations I think
would be I don't know how that would
take the foot
takes place but I just done a project
with a PHD student
at Edinburgh College of Art Sequoia
Barnes, African-American
but we came together and she invited me
and we did this performance at
the Fruit Market Gallery but that it's
transformed
my thinking, it's transformed her
thinking. We're writing a face together
and I said you know you lead and I
will just
follow and it's just been an amazing
experience so again
you know the younger generation are
coming out of
these issues from different perspectives
but
us older generations have still got
something to contribute.
So I think that that's one that's one
thing I can think of.
Thank you.
Thank you so thanks everybody I'm going
to hand back to

English: 
to hand back to
Brigitte Lardinois with my thanks to the
Photography and
the Archive Research Centre for
convening this conversation then please keep your
feedback requests and thoughts about how
we can develop this work
and much appreciation to three really
significant
cultural critics, commentators,
writers, photographers
art historians. So Mark, Gary and Carol really appreciate your
individual work
to collectively how we're looking at a
a broader way
of exploring and hopefully reforming
a more decolonised culture thank you
Thank you very much Pratap andI  would
like to
add your name to that list of
illustrious speakers
because we are actually very very lucky
to have you as our Associate Dean of

English: 
Brigitte Laudenoir with my thanks to the
Photography and
the Archive Research Center for
convening this conversation.
Then please keep your feedback, requests, thoughts about how we
can develop this work and much appreciation to three really
significant cultural critics, commentators,
writers, photographers, art historians. So Mark,
Gary and Carol really appreciate your
individual work
to collectively how we're looking at
broader way of exploring
and hopefully reforming a more
decolonized culture.
Thank you. Thank you very much Pratap and I would like to add
your name to that list of illustrious speakers because we
are actually very very lucky to have you as our

English: 
Research at LCC
and I feel really sorry Gary if you
are now in Manchester and if you
feel like a white rhino there and we
should all do
everything we can to make sure that
that's not the case
in the next couple of years so to all of
you
to Carol you were inspiring as always
and uh Mark we've got you now
we'll keep talking and I just want to
thank everyone for attending
and we will post this session online
sorry about the the technical hitches
um nevertheless a really really
wonderful
hour and a bit thank you very much on
behalf of
LCC and do please
all join at the the graduate events that
are online and let's hope that maybe
this time next year we can actually do
this

English: 
Associate Dean of Research at LCC
and I feel really sorry Gary if you
are now in Manchester and if you
feel like a white rhino there and we
should all do everything we can to make sure that
that's not the case in the next couple of years. So to all of
you, to Carol you were inspiring as always
and Mark we've got you now. We'll keep talking and I just want to
thank everyone for attending and we will post this session online.
Sorry about the the technical hitches.
Nevertheless, a really really
wonderful hour and a bit. Thank you very much on
behalf of LCC and do please
all join at the graduate events that
are online and let's hope that maybe
this time, next year we can actually do
this

English: 
in a lecture theater again thank you
very much
on behalf of everyone thank you
thanks Bridget.

English: 
in a lecture theater, again.Thank you
very much
on behalf of everyone. Thank you.
Thanks Brigitte.
 
