JUDY WOODRUFF: As we get deeper into the presidential
campaign season, there are questions being
raised every day, not just about the candidates,
but about how the news media cover them, and,
in the case of President Trump, about his
relationship to one particular news organization.
There's a new book about that.
And before we speak to its author, here's
some background.
DONALD TRUMP, President of the United States:
The country's in very good shape, and we're
set to rock and roll.
JUDY WOODRUFF: For an embattled president
fighting for reelection in a year of crises
and chaos, a friendly platform is just a phone
call away.
Even as some journalists at FOX News have
covered the human toll of the coronavirus
pandemic and challenged President Trump on
his record overseeing it...
DONALD TRUMP: I think we have one of the lowest
mortality rates in the world.
CHRIS WALLACE, Host, "FOX News Sunday": That's
not true, sir. We have a -- we had 900 deaths
on a single day.
JUDY WOODRUFF: ... a number of its most prominent
hosts have downplayed the seriousness of the
virus and defended the president's handling
of the outbreak.
LAURA INGRAHAM, FOX News: The media and, frankly,
most Democrats have been acting as though
President Trump is directly responsible for
every case of COVID-19 in the U.S.
DONALD TRUMP: The violence is fueled by dangerous
rhetoric from far left politicians.
JUDY WOODRUFF: FOX's prime-time hosts also
frequently have identical messages to the
president's on largely peaceful protests that
have broken out this year across the country
over police killings of Black Americans.
LOU DOBBS, FOX Business: This is clearly an
effort to disrupt and take over the country.
JUDY WOODRUFF: And when the president said
police are under siege in a recent interview
with FOX's Laura Ingraham, she tried to steer
him away from comparing controversial police
shootings to choking while playing golf.
DONALD TRUMP: But they choke. Just like in
a golf tournament, they miss a three-foot
putt.
LAURA INGRAHAM: You're not comparing it to
golf, because, of course, that's what the
media will say.
DONALD TRUMP: No. I'm saying people choke.
JUDY WOODRUFF: But perhaps no one in the channel's
stable of conservative hosts has been more
influential than Sean Hannity. He's reported
to have a direct line to the president, who,
in turn, is a frequent caller on Hannity's
show.
Mr. Trump has used the outlet to make false
claims without pushback.
DONALD TRUMP: This will be the most fraudulent
election in history.
JUDY WOODRUFF: Even so, the combination has
drawn large audiences and made many millions
in revenue.
In June and July, FOX News was the highest
rated channel in prime time on all of television.
The president's relationship with FOX is the
focus of Brian Stelter's new book, "Hoax:
Donald Trump, FOX News, and the Dangerous
Distortion of Truth." He is also CNN's chief
media correspondent and the host of the show
"Reliable Sources."
And he joins us now from New York.
Brian Stelter, thank you so much for being
here.
You say at the outset that you wrote this
as a citizen and a father, not as a journalist.
Is it possible to separate the two?
BRIAN STELTER, Author, "Hoax: Donald Trump,
FOX News, and the Dangerous Distortion of
Truth": I think it is possible to separate
the two, because all of us, when we are journalists,
are also humans living in this country, trying
to make the best of it, and trying to create
a better future for our kids.
I have two young kids. And I think, in 20
years, when they ask me, what was the Trump
era all about, what happened to America, I
think understanding FOX News is essential
to understanding the Trump years.
You can't understand why the president is
out there misleading the country about voter
fraud and about anarchy in cities that isn't
really happening without understanding where
he is getting it from. He is getting from
"FOX & Friends" in the morning, on "Sean Hannity"
in the evening.
It is that feedback loop, the likes of which
America has never seen before. And because
he is oftentimes getting low-quality information,
not the kind of high-quality information you
get from the nightly news, he ends up misleading
everybody as a result.
JUDY WOODRUFF: You do paint this remarkable
picture of this loop, as you describe it,
between Sean Hannity, other FOX hosts and
the president, the sharing information, sharing
perception of what is going on in the world.
How does it work? Who is helping whom here?
BRIAN STELTER: So, I have heard from a lot
of readers and folks who have said, well,
I didn't know it was this extreme, that there
are even more examples than they realized.
I think FOX helps Trump more than Trump helps
FOX at this point. But, also, these stars
on FOX hurt Trump. When they are trying to
help him, when they are trying to do him a
service, they do him a disservice by misinforming
him. And then it affects everybody.
This is the FOXification of America. And it
is why we feel like we live in two separate
information universes. When you have got a
relative in your family, and you feel like
they are talking a different language, it
is oftentimes because of FOX.
JUDY WOODRUFF: Brian Stelter, you say some
of the decisions that have most seriously
damaged the Trump presidency could arguably
be traced to his TV viewing habits.
BRIAN STELTER: Yes.
JUDY WOODRUFF: Give us some examples of that,
and how much TV does he watch?
BRIAN STELTER: Well, that is what I mean about,
when they try to help him, they end up hurting
him.
On the very first day, the first weekend,
the inauguration crowd size debacle, the president
was getting bad advice from FOX.
And, more importantly, with the impeachment
saga, the president was hearing negative news
about Ukraine on FOX. The seeds of the Ukraine
scheme were planted on Hannity's show, and
it led to Trump's impeachment.
So, a lot of this is about what sources of
information the president is receiving. And
that was most dangerous this year, Judy, with
the pandemic. As FOX's stars downplayed the
pandemic, Trump did as well. And that has
had life-and-death consequences.
JUDY WOODRUFF: What are those consequences?
I mean, you write extensively about how dangerous
this is. What are the consequences you see?
And why do you think this program is so successful?
As we said, their programming over the summer
most-watched of all television anywhere.
BRIAN STELTER: Yes.
FOX is like resentment news. It is like grievance
news. It taps into white Christian Americans'
grievances about what is happening in the
country, an increasingly multicultural America.
So, some of the narratives are about that.
That is why we heard all about caravans and
an invasion in 2018 before the midterms. Now
we're hearing about law and order, because
FOX is emphasizing violence in the cities,
in New York and Seattle and elsewhere.
Of course, the cities are not nearly as severely
endangered as FOX portrays them. But the president
watches, and then he reflects those talking
points. And there is an echo back and forth.
And that is why we live in these two separate
information universes.
JUDY WOODRUFF: You do focus a lot, of course,
most of this, Brian Stelter, on the prime-time
hosts.
You also write about the other -- the journalists
at FOX, both current journalists, former journalists,
who were your sources for information. How
much do they take their orders, take their
guidance from the owners, from management
at FOX? Because -- and we know what their
political views are.
BRIAN STELTER: Right.
Rupert Murdoch is a right-wing political leader
who has always wanted a close relationship
with the president. And now he has one. His
son Lachlan runs the company day by day.
But I think FOX takes his cues more from the
audience, from the ratings every day. And
that is what has made the channel Trumpier
and Trumpier.
Hundreds of staffers in and around FOX confided
in me, saying: We have gone off the rails.
This is always a channel that leans to the
right, and that is a good thing. There should
be conservative-leaning news and liberal-leaning
news, and lots of kinds of news.
But they say: No, no, it has gotten too extreme
now. The rhetoric is too extreme. The racism
and xenophobia in prime time is too extreme.
Some journalists at FOX have left the network.
Other stay because they want to try to make
it better. And there are anchors like Chris
Wallace, who is going to be moderating a debate,
who's the exception to the rule.
JUDY WOODRUFF: Right.
BRIAN STELTER: But even anchors like Wallace
have had a hard time trying to navigate the
Trump years.
And "Hoax" has all the examples of why.
JUDY WOODRUFF: So, you are saying some of
the journalists at FOX are able to escape
this influence that you describe?
BRIAN STELTER: Yes, I think the problem, though,
is that you the news side is losing and the
propaganda side is winning.
And that is what FOX viewers seem to want.
They prefer the pro-Trump talking heads. They
prefer the propaganda. That's not just an
issue at FOX. It's a problem for America.
When the president tells you to distrust the
media every single day, when he uses the word
hoax so often that nobody knows what to believe
anymore, we're going to have a challenge in
this country that's going to long outlast
the Trump presidency.
JUDY WOODRUFF: A kind of bottom-line question,
Brian Stelter.
You have got a great job at CNN. Would you
ever want to work for FOX?
BRIAN STELTER: I think, if anybody at FOX
could peel off an hour where it's all about
fact-checking, all about being as accurate
as possible, then there should be room for
that.
Right now, though, the audience doesn't seem
to want it, and neither is the network.
But I don't think FOX has to be this way.
One of the Murdoch sons, James, Lachlan -- he
may try to take over someday. He's a more
liberal-leaning son. I wonder what could happen
if he tries to take over.
JUDY WOODRUFF: Brian Stelter, we thank you
very much.
BRIAN STELTER: Thank you, Judy.
