Kaitlin Luna: Welcome to Speaking of Psychology,
a bi-weekly podcast from the American Psychological
Association.
I'm your host Kaitlin Luna.
The clothes we put on every day tell a story
about who we are to the world and can have
a major impact on our emotions and mood.
So where does psychology fit into all this,
and how does it help us solve some of the
biggest challenges facing the fashion industry
now and in the future?
Our guest for this episode is Dr. Carolyn
Mair, a cognitive psychologist who created
the Psychology of Fashion department at the
London College of Fashion at the University
of Arts London as well as an undergraduate
program and two master's degree programs there.
Dr. Mair is currently a consultant for fashion
brands and recently published a book called
the �Psychology of Fashion.� Welcome Dr.
Mair.
Carolyn Mair: Thank you very much Kaitlin
it's a pleasure to be here.
Thank you.
Kaitlin Luna: We're happy to have you.
How did you get into this field?
Carolyn Mair: I've always been interested
in fashion, and my first job was a window
dresser, visual merchandiser as it�s known
now.
I did that for four years, absolutely loved
it and then I did several other creative jobs.
Making clothes for people, making clothes
myself and so on and then when I got into
my 30s and I had three children I decided
it was time to get a degree.
So, I did my undergraduate degree in applied
psychology and computing.
Then I did a master's in research methods
and then I was very fortunate to be able to
have a funded PhD studentship.
So, after my PhD I really wanted to work in
the applied field of psychology because my
PhD was so theoretical, and I worked for seven
years in an ordinary psychology department
as a senior lecturer and then became a professor.
And then I was at a conference and I met somebody
from London College of Fashion and when I
asked him if there were only psychologists
there he said there weren't and that I should
come into a paper there.
And so I gave a paper at London College of
Fashion on the importance of psychology for
fashion and I was invited back to discuss
how I could bring psychology to the college
and that was back in 2011.
I started working there in 2012 and developed
the master's courses and set up the department
before I left in 2017.
Kaitlin Luna: Wow so you've had a lifelong
interest in fashion and that became academic
and now here you are having have set up this
program at the college, that's wonderful.
Carolyn Mair: Thank you.
Kaitlin Luna: And you wrote in your book that
there are very few psychologists in this field,
so from your perspective why is it important
to have psychologists researching and working
in the fashion industry?
Carolyn Mair: Well the fashion industry is
about people.
It employs millions worldwide and everyone
wears clothes.
Clothes are the closest thing to our bodies,
they're our second skin.
And psychologists can help with loss of the
issues that are known to be caused by the
fashion industry.
So for example the fashion industry has a
poor reputation in terms of social responsibility
and now coming to a head, and it's been around
for four decades actually, are the issues
about sustainability.
So the fashion industry is one of the worst
industries for damaging the environment and
psychologists can help with this.
They can help the consumers change their habits
through developing behavior change programs,
they can also work with employers to help
them create workplaces that provide better
conditions for their staff, and they can also
help in predicting demands so that there's
far less waste when the items are made.
So currently fashion forecasters tend to work
on intuition, gut feeling, sometimes they
look at the historical cycles, but psychologists
are well trained in data analysis and they
will be able to predict fashion trends much
better using data.
And of course, there's the obvious way that
psychologists can work in the fashion industry
and that's in consumer behavior.
And consumers are becoming more and more demanding.
They are wanting more than just to be satisfied.
Customers now have fantastic opportunities
for competition, for searching online and
in-store so the retail companies, fashion
retail companies, have to give consumers a
fantastic experience and who better to help
design a fantastic experience than psychologists.
Kaitlin Luna: You just touched on some very
interesting issues regarding overconsumption
and regarding the environment.
So you cited an alarming statistic in your
book as well that in the US about an estimated
15 million people have a spending addiction,
so we know that overconsumption is clearly
an issue.
How can people break the cycle and consume
more responsibly?
Carolyn Mair: Well it's a very difficult one
because the way we shop becomes a habit and
lots of, lots of us go shopping as a social
pleasure, as a leisure pursuit, and so shopping
becomes part of what we do, part of our identity.
And also you know, we like novelty, we like
fashion we want to look nice and enhance ourselves.
But people can also change their habits through
structured behavior change programs so they
can learn to identify what are the habits,
what are the triggers that encourage them
to go out buy more, more, more, more.
And quite often they don't wear these items
and how can their habits be changed so that
it's a win-win situation for them so they
have more money in their pockets to enjoy
experiences rather than material objects.
And they can also do good for the environment
by consuming less and contributing less to
the landfill problem.
Kaitlin Luna: Is this something you're working
on when you in your consulting work?
Carolyn Mair: Yes, so I'm currently working
across so many issues within the fashion industry
and it's just such an amazing opportunity
to make a really important difference globally.
So yes changing people's habits, looking at
the communication that we put out as a business,
looking at how we communicate with our staff
and with our customers.
Yeah so this is something that I've been doing
as a consultant since 2017.
Understanding that, you know, that consumers
are people, and they have behavior and psychologists
understand behavior.
So as a cognitive psychologist looking at
all the cognitive processes you know the way
we think, the way we perceive, the way we
understand the world to make sense of it,
all these things, processes, that we do as
human beings this is what psychologists can
help the fashion industry, and then to be
honest all industry, learn more about.
Kaitlin Luna: And you wrote a lot about fast
fashion which we've touched on as well.
The environmental impacts of this and the
human impacts of it, how its created environmental
and human rights problems and there has been
some movement in a positive direction, it's
more awareness of this but people are still
suffering in sweatshops and landfills are
still getting filled up with unused or unwanted
clothing.
What is needed to change this trend?
Carolyn Mair: Okay first of all, I think it's
quite important that that this notion of fast
fashion equals bad needs to be changed.
So, lots of items which are not considered
fast fashion are made in exactly the same
factories under exactly the same conditions.
The problem is not with fast fashion per se,
the problem with is with overproduction and
overconsumption that ends up in the landfill
sites.
There are problems with the working conditions
with abuse of the workers, with human rights
as you say and these need to be addressed
at the local level because they the factories
are typically run by people in the local communities
and there is a lot of pressure on them to
change and hopefully they will.
When the pressure turns into voting with our
wallets, which is, I think we're beginning
to see that, people are buying less and being
more mindful with what they buy.
Then then the behavior of the factory owners
and the retail companies will change accordingly
and the pressure is coming from consumers
now.
Kaitlin Luna: So you are seeing changes in
the opposite direction where people are being
more mindful about what they purchase and
how much of it.
Carolyn Mair: Some pockets of the population
yes for sure, but there are still people who
want to consume a lot simply because it's
cheap and in reality they probably spend as
much as they would on five or six very cheap
items as they would if they bought one more
one expensive item, a more expensive item
that they would actually wear and it would
potentially last longer and they would value
it more.
Kaitlin Luna: Do you think a solution is for
people to purchase perhaps higher quality
items?
Sometimes that can mean more expensive items
as opposed to those, you know, buying five
t-shirts for the price of one nice shirt.
Is that one way to alleviate the problem?
Carolyn Mair: Yes I think I think that makes
perfect sense.
Because you know buying five very similar
items and four of them are unlikely to be
worn is purely wasteful and because they're
cheap they're probably not going to be sold
or swapped or nobody was really going to want
them secondhand anyway.
So yeah, I would definitely say buy less,
buy mindfully, enjoy the experience, but don't
buy multiple items that you're not going to
wear.
Think about it at the point-of-sale, when
are you going to wear this item or these items,
do you really want to buy it and is it just
gonna hang in your wardrobe with the tags
still on it until you decide you don't want
it anymore and find out that nobody else does
either which is, it's just so wasteful.
Kaitlin Luna: So there does come a point in
a lifecycle of a piece of clothing item where
you might want to give it away or to donate
it or something of that nature.
Is that a good solution to give away your
clothes, give them to charity, give them to
friends?
Carolyn Mair: Yeah definitely anything that
stops them going into landfill is good, recycling
if the product can be recycled then fantastic.
Sometimes the recycling process does quite
a lot of harm to the environment as well.
Separating different fabrics, different textiles
is difficult and not always possible.
But anything is better than putting your unwanted
items in the bin that would go to landfill.
So swapping, renting clothes is becoming more
and more popular.
Selling on a market, individuals selling their
own clothes is also becoming popular, and
lots of fashion brands, fast fashion I'm well
aware of, I'm not sure that the higher end
of the fashion market does this, is accepting
bags of recyclable clothes that you don't
want, previously loved clothes let's say,
for recycling and they might be used if they
can be separated out for recycling.
Some are useful for stuffing other fabrics
for rags and then some are sent on to other
countries so there's some organizations that
go around and buy unwanted used clothing.
But this can be problematic because the used
clothes might end up actually frustrating
the development of the fashion industry in
developing markets.
Kaitlin Luna: I want to turn now to mental
health, and as you mentioned clothing conveys
a lot about a person.
So what does, how does what we put on our
bodies every day influence our mental health?
Carolyn Mair: Well it's stressful for us if
we don't feel comfortable in what we're wearing.
If we're really worrying that it's appropriate
or it's suitable or we don't feel confident
in what we're wearing.
It stresses us and this means that we don't
have the cognitive capacity to deal with the
problem at hand.
This is why lots of very successful people
tend to wear a work uniform in inverted commas,
not necessarily as suits but it may be t-shirt
and jeans as we've seen with Mark Zuckerberg
who wears the same items every day to allow
this freeing up of cognitive capacity for
more important issues.
And then you know for you or me this might
mean going to a meeting wearing something
that we've worn before and knowing that it's
suitable or it's appropriate and we don't
have to worry about that at that time.
Kaitlin Luna: I know there have been positive
steps in the right direction but it still
seems like everywhere we go we're bombarded
with images that encourage us to consume fashion
and that there's no way to escape it.
How does that impact people's mental health?
Carolyn Mair: People generally buy far more
than they need and probably to be honest,
none of us probably needs to buy any more
clothes ever.
Research suggests that 80% of clothes in our
wardrobe are unworn and that's quite worrying
actually, as some people can become addicted
to shopping and this can result in debt, in
shame, in guilt and there's a move now to
buy mindfully which we've discussed, and I
would definitely agree with that.
Buying too much is something that we really
should avoid.
When you buy less it seems like a win-win
situation.
You've got more money in your pocket to enjoy
the experiences that bring more and lasting
satisfaction and you're also doing less harm
to the environment.
Kaitlin Luna: So throughout this interview
you�ve mentioned several times about the
importance of people being mindful of their
purchases, and this move toward mindfulness
is certainly wonderful in many ways.
But how does that work within the fashion
industry because they certainly need to generate
profits.
I mean they want to respond to their customers
in terms of wanting to be understanding and
receptive to being more mindful about fashion,
but at the same time they also need to make
money.
So what are you seeing in terms of that tension
that exists?
Carolyn Mair: I think once the fashion industry
is more in tune with what the customers want,
actually want rather than what they think
they want, when they're more able to predict
more accurately, so production on demand rather
than full supply, then you know this affects
profits more so than the selling.
So much money is wasted on overproduction,
so if that comes out of the equation, the
company can still be profitable.
Kaitlin Luna: You mentioned in your book the
pressure to produce for consumers is so high
that people in the fashion industry often
suffer from mental health issues like substance
abuse, anxiety, depression and eating disorders.
So what needs to change in the industry and
are you seeing any movement in that direction,
in a better direction?
Carolyn Mair: Well I think we're still waiting
for some change in that.
I mean the cycles of fashion have become shorter
and shorter so where they used to be two seasons
and perhaps a cruise collection there are
now six, seven, ten.
Some high street brands have new stock every
week, some every two weeks, and the designers
are just on a treadmill.
And the ones who we've seen are the very famous
high-end designers where it makes news when
they have mental health problems or worse.
But there's a whole industry behind them of
designer�s assistants and interns who don't
make that publicity when they have mental
health problems.
And it's not, there isn't time to speak out
about how you feel, there isn't that possibility
really.
And it's not just the designers, its models
as well who, when there's a fashion week or
on shoots, they have to be available from
the early morning to late at night looking
fantastic the whole time often like no time
to eat or very little time to eat, no food
available for them, and there are reports
of models saying that they've not been treated
very well at all, that they just treated like
a, like a clothes hanger I suppose, and that
they're not called by their names.
Not all, and we see the very famous ones,
the ones who have fantastic lifestyles, but
again there are thousands of models who don't
enjoy that kind of celebrity status whose
mental health may well suffer.
And it may be that the fashion industry attracts
people who are susceptible to mental health
problems because it's so creative, so dynamic,
so exciting and the pressures are on not just
to work but to be on form 24/7.
Kaitlin Luna: And on the flip side for consumers
who see images of these impossibly thin and
beautiful models, what does that do to a person's
self-image and their positive feelings about
themselves?
Carolyn Mair: There's quite a lot of research
now which shows that even a very brief look
at fashion imagery of thin models or airbrush
models can damage a person's body satisfaction,
so they feel worse about their body than they
did before after a very brief exposure.
And given that we're exposed to images of
a fashion thousands of times in a week you
know this is affecting most of us, and social
media has a lot to answer for to be honest
with the images that are on Instagram for
example.
So anyone who likes fashion is going to be
following the people, the designers they like,
the models they like, the influencers they
like, on Instagram and most of them have a
particular image which, you know, individuals
want to aspire to, they aspire to be, but
quite often are unattainable.
Kaitlin Luna: And what do you think needs
to change in this area?
Carolyn Mair: Well the same as it across the
whole industry.
More diversity, more representation and not
just on the other side of the camera but in
front of the camera so more diversity in the
workforce of the fashion industry and in their
peripheral workforce so model agents and so
on.
So far, more representation of the populations
that the fashion industry serves, and this
isn't just about skin tone, it�s about body
type, body shape, ages, ability and just the
whole range you know.
As I said right at the start everyone wears
clothes and everyone should be represented
by the fashion industry.
Kaitlin Luna: Where do you see psychologists
fitting into all this in terms of helping
promote more inclusivity and diversity?
Carolyn Mair: Psychologists can run studies
that test hypotheses that say that improving
representation is good for the industry and
good for the consumer and show the evidence,
bring the evidence to the fashion industry.
Psychologists can also help with the communities
who are marginalized.
And when psychologists work in the industry
they can actually really show the industry
and how beneficial it is to have a diverse
workforce.
I mean there's plenty of evidence for that
already.
Kaitlin Luna: Absolutely, and turning to a
more casual topic what are your thoughts today
about people dressing more casually?
I mean a lot of people wear active wear as
everyday clothing and offices are becoming
more casual in a lot of instances.
Carolyn Mair: Yeah I�m fine with that.
You know, in London you can wear absolutely
anything you want and nobody looks at all.
I think it's great that people can wear whatever
they want, whether that's active wear, casual
wear to work.
I think it's a really positive move.
For lots of people working in a formal suit
it doesn't represent their true selves or
their self-identity and so they might struggle
to do the kind of job that they want to do
if they were free to choose what clothes they
can wear.
But me for example, I really don't like wearing
suits and I would typically wear jeans, I'm
wearing jeans now.
Or jeans and a jumper, or jeans and a shirt,
so yeah I think people should be allowed to
dress in the way they want because the way
we dress is part of our identity, part of
who we are.
Kaitlin Luna: Yeah so is what you're saying
is a more casual environment overall does
help people's mental health I imagine.
Because if they are expressing their authentic
self as opposed to wearing a suit or uniform
every day, probably feeling better yea.
Carolyn Mair: Exactly, they have the freedom
to choose.
And autonomy, again plenty of evidence to
support this, giving people autonomy at work
or in their lives in whichever aspect is possible,
is a really positive element of people's life.
Kaitlin Luna: So people say often �dress
for success,� does that hold water these
days?
Carolyn Mair: It depends on the industry.
Progressive industries success might be a
pair of jeans and a cool t-shirt with a slogan
of something.
Still in finance it might be that you still
have to wear a suit.
When people ask me this question I would always
say do some homework, find out what the next
level in the hierarchy is wearing.
What is the unwritten rule for that job, because
you know if something is inappropriate or
just considered not suitable by the person
who might be hiring you, then however much
you love it, it shows your identity, the person
the hirer might believe that you're not really
the right person for that job.
In my opinion it shouldn't matter but it still
does.
Kaitlin Luna: As a fashion psychologist, how
do you approach your wardrobe?
Carolyn Mair: I like very plain casual clothes.
I try to dress appropriately for a situation
that I'm going to.
Yeah I would say that I don't want clothes
that shout, so I prefer clothes that don't
say very much about them, so I'm not a logo
wearer.
Yeah typically quite plain clothes, often
black or navy and in the summer maybe white,
so I'm a quite plain dresser.
Kaitlin Luna: You know I've actually noticed
that some of the biggest fashion designers
you know will come out on the catwalk and
they're wearing very simple, maybe black clothing.
So is there any psychological reason why they
might do that?
Or are they trying to have an emphasis be
on the clothes, of their other clothes that
they're designing?
Carolyn Mair: Yes, it's almost an unwritten
rule I think of the fashion industry, is black,
almost like a modest dressing, quite loose
fluid, gender fluid clothes.
Yeah and that's been around for quite a while
in the industry.
It varies, I mean there are some fashion designers
who dress quite, outrageously let's say, but
yeah the majority I would say dress plainly.
Perhaps yes as you say to not distract from
the creations they've made on the catwalk.
Kaitlin Luna: It's always kind of struck me
as interesting, someone who creates this like
nearly dynamic outfit maybe it's colorful
or something and then comes out and they're
wearing maybe a black pants and a black shirt,
sneakers or something like that, it's always
a little jarring.
I wanted to go back to, you mention about
the workplace uniform and kind of a trend
you might see like in the Silicon Valley or
something where entrepreneurs wear casual
clothes.
Maybe they wear the same thing every day,
that kind of thing.
Is there anything behind that, you mentioned
you people wanting to reserve cognitive resources,
but is there any other, are there any psychological
reasons why someone might want to wear a self-imposed
uniform?
Carolyn Mair: It says something to the people
who they are interacting with.
For example it's not going to be any commentary
around their clothes if they wear the same
thing every day.
So you know this issue with, oh wow, drawing
attention to what they're wearing just won't
happen if you wear the same thing every day.
And perhaps that's why fashion designers and
people who work in fashion wear a lot of black
loose clothing because it doesn't say anything
much about what they're wearing.
But I think there's an important part about
the cognitive resources, because if you're
stressed about what you're wearing or if you're
thinking about what you're wearing you don't
have the capacity to think fully on the job
at hand.
You know worrying is it appropriate or have
I dressed correctly for this meeting and then
I'm going to another meeting.
So I think a work uniform frees up time in
the morning, you don't have to make decisions
about what to wear for the day, but it's also
very efficient at work because you won't get
comments on what you're wearing.
I would think it's rare that people would
say oh you're wearing the same thing every
day.
Kaitlin Luna: And do you think there's a lot
of openings in the fashion industry for psychologists?
You mentioned wanting to get more people in
the field but do you think this is an area
of study that you see growing in the future
and opportunities for psychologists or people
with a background in psychology or interest
in psychology to find a way to use their knowledge
in perhaps a different field than they expected?
Carolyn Mair: Absolutely, I think this year
is a very interesting year for fashion retail.
I think a lot of fashion retailers will struggle
this year with the rising consumer demands
and the rising competition and the rise of
omni-channel shopping and so psychologists
are suddenly being the people as well as tech
people who are necessary in the fashion industry
to understand all the processes that happen
in the brain as well as all the social processes
that happen between people.
So consumers, fashion employees, and the peripheral
people who work with fashion brands but are
not actually part of the brands.
And I think a huge opening will happen, and
this takes time.
So the course has only started recruiting
in 2014.
But I would say in a couple of years� time
there's gonna be great demand for psychologists
working in the fashion industry and I really
feel it's important that people who work in
the fashion industry as psychologists have
psychology training and don't just feel that
because they're human that they are psychologists.
I think this is really really important because
psychologists are also trained in ethics and
understanding that, you know, people are vulnerable
and sort of making claims about what happens
because this all that can backfire with people
who are not able to handle the outcomes of
something for example.
So I'm really conscious of some people wanting
to work in the fashion industry as psychologists
who have little or no understanding or training
of psychology.
Kaitlin Luna: And going off what you just
mentioned about ethics, there's been some
scandals from recent brands like Gucci and
Prada who've had issues with race and cultural
sensitivity issues.
So how can psychologists contribute to helping
brands in this manner?
Carolyn Mair: Well, psychologists can help
they because they need to help brands become
more diverse in the areas of design, in their
thinking, in their communications.
Because this is an issue of lack of diversity
as much as it's an ethical issue and a racist
issue.
So the lack of awareness by these brands is
clearly shocking.
And running diversity programs, implicit bias
training to overcome the biases that people
have, and also getting people on the ground
actually working with the communities who
these brands serve.
It's beyond defensive and you know I think
the brands have to hold their hands up when
they've done something that is offensive.
You know it all comes down to diversity, but
the ethics is across the board and it needs
to be implicit in everything that a brand
does.
So, you know, we're seeing with more data
use the ethics of that has to be really seriously
considered.
Kaitlin Luna: From your perspective what is
the future of the fashion industry?
Carolyn Mair: Well I think the fashion industry
is going to diversify not only in terms of
its workforce or it's symmetry but in terms
of its products, in terms of its services,
because if we really are going to be buying
less and it still needs to make a profit it
needs to do that somehow.
I think the fashion industry is also going
to need to work with other disciplines, it's
already working with AI and tech, it will
be working far more with materials scientists,
creating biodegradable textiles that can be
woven easily and laundered and cared for but
also can be recycled in a way that doesn't
harm the environment.
The fashion industry will of course be working
with more psychologists and apologists.
I think it's going to be an industry that
in the past has been very much design based
and business based that we will see the necessity,
like neuroscience, for working with lots of
different disciplines and actually appreciating
the value of the diversity of disciplines
within the industry, it's gonna make it far
richer.
Kaitlin Luna: Thank you so much for joining
us Dr. Mair, really appreciate your time.
Carolyn Mair: Thank you very much for having
me.
Kaitlin Luna: To learn more about Dr. Mair's
work visit www.psychology.fashion.
We want to know what you think about our show,
you can email me your comments and ideas at
KLuna@apa.org that's KLuna@apa.org.
Speaking of Psychology is part of the APA
podcast network, which includes other great
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new psychological research, and Progress Notes
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You can find all our podcasts on iTunes, Stitcher,
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You can also go to our website speakingofpsychology.org
to listen to more episodes.
I'm Kaitlin Luna with the American Psychological
Association.
