AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org,
The War and Peace Report, I'm Amy Goodman.
In Honduras, the political crisis continues
as the government is still refusing to release
the results of the November 26 presidential
election, held almost two weeks ago.
The election pits U.S.-backed President Juan
Orlando Hernández against opposition candidate
Salvador Nasralla, head of the National Alliance
Against the Dictatorship.
Massive protests erupted over the weekend,
after the government-controlled electoral
commission stopped tallying votes when the
count showed Nasralla ahead of Hernández
by more than 5 percentage points.
After the delay, the electoral commission
then claimed Hernández was ahead, sparking
protests in which as many as 11 people were
killed and more than 1,200 detained.
Earlier this week, the Honduran police mutinied
against the government, saying they would
no longer enforce a curfew and crackdown against
protesters.
Well, on Wednesday, in a Democracy Now! exclusive,
I spoke with President Manuel Zelaya.
He was president of Honduras from 2006 to
2009, before he was ousted in a U.S.-backed
coup on June 28th, 2009.
He’s now head of the opposition LIBRE party,
part of the coalition of the Alliance Against
the Dictatorship, which is led by the opposition
presidential candidate Salvador Nasralla.
We spoke via Democracy Now!
video stream.
President Zelaya was in Tegucigalpa.
I began by asking him to describe the situation
in Honduras right now.
MANUEL ZELAYA: [translated] Look, people are
in the streets.
There are a million people in the streets.
There are takeovers.
There are checkpoints.
There are demonstrations.
People are also being killed, assassinated
by the repressive apparatuses of the state.
There is a massive protest of society because
of the lack of transparency in the electoral
system.
Today, we are calling our candidate, who is
now president-elect—we are calling for a
count of all polling places.
There are only 18,000 polling places.
It’s not such a large number.
That can be done in a matter of four days.
So that the people can regain calm, because
based on the data that the state itself put
out, the Supreme Electoral Tribunal, the Alliance
of Opposition Against the Dictatorship, on
the day of the election, the tribunal said
that we had a 5 percent lead, with 71 percent
of the votes counted.
They said, with 57 percent counted, the alliance
already had a 5 percent advantage, and then,
with 71 percent counted, the 5 percent trend
was maintained—71 percent.
It was a 5 percent lead and growing.
Then, the system went down for three days.
They say that the server was overloaded.
That’s like putting three needles into a
room.
How is a server going to be overloaded with
so little data.
The server can take billions and billions
of pieces of data.
So, three days, it was the—the vote count
was stopped.
And then there was a change in service, in
the server.
And we were told that they had reset, when
we asked for the backup, and it was all lost.
And then it was resumed, and we’re told,
with 29 percent of the vote left to be counted,
that we were losing.
And so people were indignant, felt bothered.
And we resent the fact that the United States
has this duplicitous discourse with respect
to Honduras.
They control the country.
I was the president.
They control the media, the private enterprise,
the churches, the military.
And they are silent.
It’s very striking that there’s a twofold
discourse, a duplicitous discourse, here on
the part of the State Department.
AMY GOODMAN: President Zelaya, what are you
calling for right now?
MANUEL ZELAYA: [translated] At this time,
we are asking for two things.
First, for people to stay firm and stay in
the streets, because if we don’t defend
what we’ve won at the polls in the streets—the
Honduran institutions have been coopted from
the coup d’état to date.
There’s no democracy here.
There’s no rule of law here.
We are suffering repression here.
People are being persecuted.
There are human rights violations every day.
Every day.
There’s no due process.
There’s nothing.
Since the coup d’état, the United States
has done what it wants with this country.
They changed all the laws.
This is a military state, with laws like Plan
Colombia, like the laws in Iraq and Afghanistan.
That is what’s happening in Honduras.
And they’ve done away with guarantees and
with respect.
What’s being done in this country is unjust.
We are calling for people to defend themselves
in the streets, so that what we won at the
polls, we defend in the streets.
And second, the little bit of institutional
framework that the state has—well, the OAS
is calling for this, the European Union.
Let’s count the 18,000 polling places.
They say let’s count or let’s review the
reports on the votes.
But that’s manipulated.
Let’s actually look at the votes.
Let’s see where the voters signed.
And let’s see if the signatures on the reports
of the votes coincide with what’s on the
actual vote.
We’re asking for something—this is a very
sensitive demand.
And we think that the international community
should support democracy in Honduras.
We want peace in Honduras.
AMY GOODMAN: Are you calling for a full recount
or a new election?
MANUEL ZELAYA: [translated] We know that Salvador
Nasralla won the election.
Salvador Nasralla, in a matter of six months.
We had an alliance with the LIBRE party, which
was founded after the coup d’état.
We entered into an alliance with him.
He’s practically a TV personality and sports
journalist.
And in a matter of six months—with happiness,
dancing in all of the towns, with music—he
won the elections.
We won.
We defeated 130 years of bipartisan rule in
Honduras.
We defeated them.
The people defeated them, because of the poverty,
the misery and the violence.
The people cannot put up with it anymore.
So, the elections were won.
They recognized it the day of the elections.
It was in the press worldwide that the alliance
had won the election.
And today, silence.
Let’s hear the voice of the church, the
voice the military.
Well, they react only when the United States
gives them the order.
AMY GOODMAN: President Zelaya, the U.S. State
Department certified the Honduran government
has been fighting corruption and supporting
human rights, clearing the way for Honduras
to receive millions of dollars in U.S. aid.
This came just a few days after the election
took place on November 26th, in the midst
of the dispute.
Can you talk about the significance of this?
MANUEL ZELAYA: [translated] Well, one month
ago, the United Nations in Geneva, which looks
out for human rights, directly introduced
Honduras in the list of countries that violate
human rights.
One month ago, the United Nations organization
in Geneva that looks out for human rights
involved Honduras and put it directly on the
list of countries that violate human rights.
Just one year ago, they assassinated Berta
Cáceres, a defender of nature, a defender
of the rivers.
They went to assassinate her.
And the indicia indicate that the masterminds
of this crime are being protected by the state.
Nonetheless, the State Department comes out
with these things.
The State Department is a very political organization.
They protect the dictators who are their friends.
Nonetheless, in Honduras, it has been clear—well,
in the last six months, there’s not been
an ambassador of the United States.
The ambassador of the United States is like
a governor.
It’s like a state that is under the dollar.
And we find it shameful that the State Department
is so indifferent to the Honduran people,
who are suffering.
There have been 12 assassinations in the last
48 hours.
We’re under a state of siege.
You know, they’ve declared a state of siege
against the protests.
They are counting the votes under a state
of siege, with a military highly repressive
state in Honduras.
AMY GOODMAN: What is the United States doing
behind the scenes, President Zelaya?
MANUEL ZELAYA: [translated] They want to leave
the dictator in, endorsing a fraud, endorsing
a dictator.
AMY GOODMAN: And what is it doing?
How do you know that?
What is it doing to ensure that?
MANUEL ZELAYA: [translated] The Organization
of American States put out a report yesterday,
which is mostly satisfactory, about how the
operational side of the elections are being
held.
And the OAS—well, this is a report that
must be analyzed with the State Department,
as well.
And they say clearly that the OAS cannot consider
the results of the—put out by the election
tribunal, to be reliable.
They’re saying that the current president
is being illegally re-elected.
They’ve violated the Constitution.
They’ve assaulted the institutions of the
state.
They carried out a fraud.
They did not want to carry out the national
election census.
And now, since they were not able to win at
the ballot box, they’re now manipulating
the system, the count system.
The OAS already put out a report that we find
very satisfactory.
Based on that report, today we will be presenting
challenges to the election.
We will be calling for a general count of
all the votes.
Now, if the State Department would like to
rectify its position, it should go along with
us in this, that there should be a count.
If the current president won, what’s the
problem with having a recount?
If they say he won, well, Mr. President, let’s
have a count.
You or the United States, let us look.
Let’s have a count in Europe.
Let’s have a count.
What’s the problem?
If the electoral tribunal says that you won—well,
they’re all employees of the presidency—let’s
have a public count, in front of cameras and
television and international organizations.
The three parties that participated, the main
parties, let’s be there.
And they say everything is transparent.
I would hope it would be.
And I would hope that that can happen in coming
hours.
AMY GOODMAN: That’s former Honduran President
Manuel Zelaya, ousted in 2009 in a U.S.-backed
coup.
We’ll be back with our exclusive interview
with him, and then we’ll talk about The
Dangerous Case of Donald Trump: Psychiatrists
and Mental Health Experts Assessing a President.
Stay with us.
[break]
AMY GOODMAN: Honduran band Café Guancasco,
one of the most politically outspoken bands
in Honduras.
After the 2009 U.S.-backed coup, they became
known as the “Band of the Resistance.”
This is Democracy Now!
I’m Amy Goodman, as we return to Democracy
Now!'s exclusive interview with the former
Honduran President Manuel Zelaya, ousted in
the 2009 U.S.-backed coup.
The political crisis in Honduras today is
continuing as the government still refuses
to release the results of the November 26
presidential election, that pit the U.S.-backed
President Juan Orlando Hernández against
the opposition candidate Salvador Nasralla,
head of the Alliance Against the Dictatorship.
Massive protests erupted over the weekend,
after the government-controlled electoral
commission stopped tallying votes when the
count showed Nasralla ahead of Hernández.
I asked President Zelaya whether he's suggesting
the U.S. is still running the show right now
in Honduras.
MANUEL ZELAYA: [translated] I have no doubt
about it, Amy.
And you know why?
Because I was president of the country, and
they tried to run everything.
And their opposition is what took me out of
power.
The coup d’état against me was planned
in Miami at the Southern Command.
So I know, here, they run the churches—not
all of them, not all of the pastors or all
of the priests, but the main heads.
They finance the main churches, evangelical
churches, as well—not all of them, but most
of them.
They run the large owners of the media corporations.
They feed them a line, day after day.
And the military obey them, because they were
trained by them at the School of the Americas.
It now has another name, but the graduates
are throughout Latin America.
The private business—well, if you’re going
to be a businessperson and make money in Honduras,
you need to export to the United States, and
so you have to have a good relationship, you
have to have a visa.
So, anything the United States says is the
law for the private sector here.
If they say, “Go into the abyssum,” they
will.
That’s how the history of this country has
been.
They run the transnationals, private sector,
the churches, the major media—not just here,
around the world.
The major media conglomerates answer to the
U.S. line.
And that is why it’s necessary for them
to reflect upon the harm that they’re doing
to a small country like this.
It’s incredible.
But they’re not going to be able to govern
here.
If Juan Orlando is imposed in the next four
years, they’re not going to be able to govern.
The people will be in the streets.
Everyone is shouting ”Fuera JOH,” which
means, “Out, [Juan] Orlando Hernández,”
the president.
AMY GOODMAN: Has the United States reached
out to Salvador Nasralla?
Has he been speaking to the U.S. government?
MANUEL ZELAYA: [translated] Yes, quite a bit.
They have been meeting with him.
But they want Salvador to sign an agreement
with the president to review only some of
the vote reports.
They’re asking him to sign that.
Salvador has refused, because he knows that
it’s a trap that they’re trying to lead
him into.
They want just a partial review, and that
is obviously not enough.
AMY GOODMAN: And what does Nasralla say to
that?
What’s his response?
MANUEL ZELAYA: [translated] The answer is
the same that I’m giving you.
I’ve spoken with him.
We’re in coordination.
I’m the coordinator of the alliance.
He is the candidate and the president-elect.
The answer is: Let’s have a general count,
and let’s have the people in the streets.
AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about General Kelly,
General Kelly who is this White House chief
of staff right now, formerly head of SouthCom,
certainly involved with matters relating to
the United States in Honduras?
Do you see him playing a role in the Honduran
election?
MANUEL ZELAYA: [translated] Well, please extend
my greetings to General Kelly.
He came here several times.
I did not meet him personally, but I know
who he is.
When he was the head of the Southern Command,
head of SouthCom, he was given responsibility
over Honduras, and he exercised a great deal
of influence in the changes in the country.
President Obama said it’s a mistake to put
the military in charge of drug trafficking,
because their armed forces are going to become
contaminated.
Well, here, General Kelly made that mistake
of getting the armed forces involved.
Instead of involved in defense, they’re
involved in security.
That’s a big mistake, because the military
have a patriotic function to defend and support
security, but not to be the first line on
security.
And so, he is, in large measure, responsible
for the tragedy that the country is experiencing.
AMY GOODMAN: Do you see a difference between
the Trump administration’s involvement in
Honduras today and the Obama administration,
clearly involved in the coup against you,
that toppled you, President Zelaya, in 2009?
MANUEL ZELAYA: [translated] There’s less
hypocrisy with Trump.
He’s more direct about what he’s going
to do, and he does it.
Under the previous administration, there was
a lack of sincerity in the words.
And so, in a way, we like this.
But Trump is very repressive.
He’s very cold and harsh.
He only sees the world from the standpoint
of business.
I think that we, human beings, be it in the
eyes of God or in the eyes of the law, have
the same value.
This is what Jefferson said.
It’s what Washington said.
It’s what the U.S. Constitution says.
He lacks humanity.
AMY GOODMAN: Do you see a connection between
the coup against you in 2009 and the violence
that has grown in Honduras, leading up to,
for example, the assassination of Berta Cáceres
in 2015?
MANUEL ZELAYA: [translated] The world is a
global village.
Everything is interrelated.
You were here after the coup d’état, and
you experienced that tragedy in Honduras.
Since then, those who carried out the coup
and removed me have been governing.
I organized the people, and we’ve now defeated
them.
At the polls, in a civic manner, without violence,
we defeated them.
They have the weapons and all.
And, of course, they changed the state.
They turned it into a military repressive
state, violator of human rights.
And there’s no more respect for due process.
They’ve introduced new laws.
There’s a law on secrecy, for example.
I had a law called law for access to public
information and law for transparency and a
law on citizen participation.
Now, these are prohibited.
Public—popular consultations are provided
by this tyrannical government.
They say there can be elections, but the elections
are not the essence of democracy.
Elections are: You’re presented a piece
of paper with a bunch of photos, and you mark
it.
That is not the full extent of democracy.
People making decisions is democracy, and
it’s not accepted here now, almost 10 years
after the coup d’état.
There’s a tie-in of death squads.
People are being massacred, killed in series.
We hadn’t seen that before in this country.
That is a result of the state.
Instead of seeking to be democratic, well,
it simply centralized power and made it authoritarian
and military.
In addition, as indicated in State Department
reports, the amount of drugs coming through
Honduras has tripled.
Of course, now there is directly military
control of all movement of the country, and
so it’s easier for the drug traffickers
than in an open democratic system.
Now, there is too much control by the security
forces, and therefore the drugs go through
very openly through Honduras.
Of course, all of that has been the result
of the control that the United States came
to acquire after the coup d’état.
First, remember, Otto Reich came through with
accusations against Honduras and so forth.
But even so, we won the elections.
Roberto Carmona, a Venezuelan CIA agent, came
through.
The United States took possession of Honduras
after the coup d’état.
And they’ve done a very bad job running
the country.
The economy has been low.
The poverty has grown.
Violence has grown.
Let me cite one datum: Violence went down
in the six months leading up to the elections.
Well, that was clearly an indicator that those
who are running the violence and control those
who are producing the violence are those who
reduce the levels of violence.
Why?
Because there’s elections.
And then, after the elections, the violence
will come back.
They are the ones who are running it.
It’s like a Plan Colombia for Honduras.
That is what we have called it.
AMY GOODMAN: Are you for the passage of the
Berta Cáceres Human Rights Act in the U.S.
Congress that would cut off military aid to
Honduras until human rights violations stop?
MANUEL ZELAYA: [translated] Yes, I agree with
passage of the Berta Cáceres Human Rights
Act, because the United States is financing
a repressive state, violating human rights,
and we need to have an in-depth investigation
into all of that.
AMY GOODMAN: The former Bolivian President
Jorge Quiroga is heading the Organization
of American States, the OAS, election observation
mission in Honduras.
He said the tight margin, along with the irregularities,
errors and systematic problems that have surrounded
this election, does not allow the mission
to be certain about the results.
President Zelaya, what’s your response to
the former Bolivian president?
MANUEL ZELAYA: [translated] Look, Tuto Quiroga,
as we know him in Latin America, is a man
from the far right.
He’s a peon of the CIA.
He works with them.
He informs them.
He was vice president of a dictator in Bolivia.
In Bolivia, he appears to be critical of the
system and of Evo Morales.
Here, he has come to defend a dictator.
So I don’t believe him.
A traitor once, a traitor forever.
AMY GOODMAN: In The Wall Street Journal, there
was an opinion piece that said that you are
doing the bidding of Venezuela, President
Zelaya.
It’s also what the PR firms in Washington
that represent the Honduran right are trying
to say.
What is your response to that?
MANUEL ZELAYA: [translated] I didn’t know
the Venezuelans until I became president of
Honduras and I met Hugo Chávez.
My record as a citizen is well known throughout
my entire life in Honduras.
I am a democratic-minded man.
I am a pacifist.
I don’t use weapons.
Plus, I have a clean record, throughout my
life, my private life, my public life, my
administrative life.
No one can have any doubts about me.
Now, in terms of my thinking and my ideology
and my ways of thinking, I share directly
with all peoples struggling for justice—Venezuela,
the people of Bolívar, the people of Central
America, of Morazán, the people of Cuba,
Martí, and Artigas in Ecuador, the people
of Mexico, the people of Farabundo Martí,
the Sandinistas.
All have struggled against dictatorships,
opprobrious dictatorships, for centuries.
That is consistent with my way of being.
I defend the Bolivarian Revolution and the
revolution of Martí and Morazán here, and
the revolutions in the African countries and
the Middle East, who are putting up with so
much pressure by the empire.
I am the defender of just causes, and I identify
with that.
Now, if because of that they say that I have
some affinity with the people, tell them it’s
true.
It’s true.
The struggle being carried out by Nicolás
Maduro to defend his natural resources, that
the United States wants to recover—oil,
the oil wells—and the European countries’
companies, as well, is a just struggle of
the Venezuelan people.
And I am with Nicolás Maduro in that struggle,
because the actions carried out by the United
States against Venezuela are public.
The Obama decrees against Venezuela, declaring
it to be an enemy of the world, is public.
The aggression by Trump, saying he’s going
to invade Venezuela, is public.
We Latin Americans and Caribbeans, Hispanic
Americans who are here, just as we defend
immigrants in the United States, we also defend
peoples who fight for change.
Here in Honduras, I began a process of change,
and they took us out by bullets.
And it was the Latin American left that defended
me.
At that time, the right united, but as a matter
of hypocrisy, because within months they were
with those who carried out the coups here,
so they don’t want changes in Latin America,
the Caribbean or anywhere in the world.
Not even in the United States do they want
changes.
There was a candidate proposing democratic
socialism.
And similarly, we have a proposal along the
same lines at the opposition alliance.
So, the United States is denying reality.
They might stop changes momentarily, but changes
of humankind cannot be stopped.
We continue going forward.
Despite all of the forces that historically
try to keep things as they are, humankind
has gone through all sorts of change—war,
revolution, peaceful demonstrations, like
Gandhi, as Jesus Christ taught us.
And we’re involved in that process.
So, my identification with those causes is
a matter of public record.
I come from a right-wing party.
But in exercising power at the top level of
the public life of any human being holding
power, we realized we needed to help the workers,
the campesinos, the teachers.
I wanted this country to have relations with
the world.
I brought Lula.
I brought Chávez.
I brought President Bachelet, presidents of
Mexico.
I maintained good relations with the United
States.
You might not believe me, but they had a center
with Chávez.
They wanted to destroy Chávez because he
wanted to free these peoples from the oppression
of the big transnationals, the military and
the transnationals.
It’s the U.S. and European military-industrial
complex.
With that, they’ve gone to destroy the Middle
East.
We have anti-imperialist principles and anti-capitalist
principles, because capital is good.
Capital needs to be developed.
Private enterprise plays a fundamental role
in the history of our peoples, the private
sector.
I, myself, own agricultural businesses and
so on.
But capital was created by man, and it’s
not possible that now capital is dominating
human beings.
Here, they want to run the nations.
They want to run the states.
They want to oppress and exploit the peoples.
I’m a businessperson, but the role of a
businessperson is to drive the economy, but
not to guide the nation.
The nation should be guided by common sense
and reason.
And that is democracy.
And I am grateful for this opportunity.
I see this is not coming from the coup d’état.
We are resisting with force, so we will maintain
this position the rest of our lives.
And we see that the people are the ones who
are on the right side of history.
The people is like the concept of God.
The people is justice.
The people is transparency.
The people is calling for justice, demanding
justice.
So, if they want to judge me or criticize
me for these views, they may do so.
AMY GOODMAN: Would you say that Salvador Nasralla
shares your views?
MANUEL ZELAYA: [translated] In large measure.
Salvador is a fair man.
He is a man of the right, but he is a fair
man.
And we entered into an alliance, and we signed
this, and we said we’re going for a participatory
democracy because representative democracy
is a betrayal.
It represents betrayal of the people, who
need to be involved in referendums and in
popular consultations.
We consider him to be an advanced and progressive
man.
He’s not a socialist, but he is a progressive
man.
And that’s why he was our candidate.
And that’s why we won the election.
The people were able to pick up on his message.
AMY GOODMAN: President Zelaya, the significance
of the police refusing to impose the curfew,
enforce the curfew, for President Hernández?
MANUEL ZELAYA: [translated] There was a mutiny
in the COBRA Group, which is a special commando
group, a rebellion.
And that then spread to all of the civilian
police.
There was like 24 hours of rebellion.
Logically, these are disciplined bodies that
have their esprit de corps, and they defend
their own integrity at the end of the day.
But it sends two messages to the nation: You
are governing poorly, we want clean elections,
and we want the winner to be recognized as
the winner.
We don’t want impositions.
We’re not going to accept impositions.
And we’re not going to obey the president
when he orders us to lash out against the
people.
They are our sisters and brothers.
And they said, “We are not going to repress
the people.
The people demand transparent elections and
a transparent vote count.”
And it was won.
And the police now have stepped back.
They reached a specific agreement.
But they really left a revolutionary message
with the people.
It’s a group that is with the people.
And we have confidence, and we’re grateful
for this historic gesture on the part of the
police, unlike the military.
The military are the ones who are killing
us.
They are the ones who are assassinating.
And they should reflect upon this, because
they, too, are persons of the people.
AMY GOODMAN: And finally, what do you see
happening from this point on, President Zelaya?
MANUEL ZELAYA: [translated] Ask General Kelly.
I already told you what we are going to do.
And we are going to uphold the will of the
people.
I’ve told you what Salvador Nasralla is
doing.
We’re calling on the people to defend themselves
in the streets, to take to the streets.
If they do not defend their triumph, if we—what
we don’t defend in the streets, we’re
not going to be able to defend in the institutions,
which are totally coopted and controlled by
the tyranny that has been established in Honduras
and with the support of the State Department.
And the State Department, to conclude, I ask
you, look, you, in the United States, you
have a major responsibility in the world.
You have the money, the weapons, power in
the world.
You have the technology, some of the greatest
strides in science.
Don’t do this to this people.
Stop supporting a fraud in Honduras.
Please, allow us to act democratically.
We’re a peaceful people, and we want to
have a good relationship with the United States.
But in this way, all that is done is for the
United States to get a poor image, worse than
it already might be.
AMY GOODMAN: That’s former Honduras President
Manuel Zelaya, who was ousted in a 2009 U.S.-backed
coup.
He was speaking to us from Tegucigalpa, Honduras.
He heads the operation LIBRE party, part of
the Alliance Against the Dictatorship, which
is led by Salvador Nasralla, the opposition
presidential candidate.
The Honduran government-controlled election
commission still refuses to release the final
results from the election nearly two weeks
ago.
You can go to democracynow.org to see all
of our coverage of Honduras, including our
coverage of his return to Honduras in 2011
on a plane from Nicaragua.
This was after he was deposed and then returning
to Honduras after the U.S.-backed coup.
This is Democracy Now!
When we come back, we’ll be talking about
The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump: Psychiatrists
and Mental Health Experts Assessing a President.
Stay with us.
