[ MUSIC ]
>> HELLO, AND WELCOME
TO TALKING POINTS.
I AM DAVE KELLY, DIRECTOR
OF ADVANCED MEDIA PRODUCTION
AT CAL STATE LONG BEACH.
TODAY, WE'RE GOING TO TAKE
ANOTHER LOOK AT LEWIS AND CLARK,
AND WHETHER THERE'S
SOME ENDURING LESSONS
FROM THAT FAMOUS JOURNEY
ACROSS THE GREAT PLAINS
AND INTO THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST.
MY GUEST TODAY IS
DR. BRETT MIZELLE.
DR. MIZELLE IS A
PROFESSOR OF HISTORY,
AND HE IS ALSO THE DIRECTOR OF
THE AMERICAN STUDIES PROGRAM.
WELCOME, BRETT, AND
THANK YOU FOR COMING BACK
FOR YOUR SECOND VISIT
TO TALKING POINTS.
>> YEAH. IT'S GREAT TO BE HERE.
>> WELL, IN ADDITION TO
BEING OUR GUEST TODAY,
WE'RE ALSO GOING TO ASK YOU
TO BE OUR TRAIL-BLAZING GUIDE
THROUGH THE AMERICAN
FRONTIER TODAY.
SO, WE'LL START WITH
THE LOUISIANA PURCHASE,
BECAUSE THAT WAS OBVIOUSLY WHAT
HAPPENED PRIOR TO THE LEWIS
AND CLARK CORPS OF
DISCOVERY EXPEDITION.
SO, WHEN THOMAS JEFFERSON,
OUR THIRD PRESIDENT,
BOUGHT THE LOUISIANA TERRITORY
FROM FRANCE, FROM NAPOLEON,
IN FACT, WE DIDN'T KNOW A
LOT ABOUT THE TERRITORY.
WHAT, IN FACT, DID WE KNOW
ABOUT THAT LOUISIANA
TERRITORY AT THAT TIME?
>> YEAH, ASTONISHINGLY
LITTLE, IN HINDSIGHT.
WE KNEW A LITTLE BIT MORE
ABOUT THE SOUTHERN BORDERLANDS
BECAUSE OF THE HISTORY
OF THE SPANISH THERE,
AND ALEXANDER VON HUMBOLDT
WAS THERE EXPLORING
AT THE PERIOD OF TIME.
AND, THERE WAS A LITTLE BIT WE
KNEW ABOUT THE PACIFIC COAST,
THANKS TO THE BRITISH.
BUT THERE WAS NOT MUCH
INFORMATION AT ALL,
OTHER THAN INFORMATION
ACQUIRED BY FUR TRADERS,
BOTH FRENCH FUR TRADERS
AND SOME ANGLO FUR TRADERS.
THERE WAS A REALLY FAMOUS DUO,
A SCOTSMAN AND A WELSH EXPLORER,
WHO HAD ONE -- DONE ONE
OF THE EARLIEST MAPS
OF THE MISSOURI RIVER.
SO, THERE WERE SOME IDEAS
OF WHAT MIGHT BE THERE,
AND HOW YOU MIGHT GO WEST.
BUT, FOR THE MOST
PART, VERY LITTLE.
IT REALLY WAS TERRA INCOGNITA.
>> MHM. AND, BEFORE WE
TALK ABOUT THE FUR TRADERS
AND THE FUR TRAPPERS, AND THAT
SORT OF THING, FIRST LET'S TALK
ABOUT A CONCEPT THAT LATER
CAME INTO OUR VOCABULARY,
AND THAT WAS MANIFEST DESTINY,
WHICH INVOLVED THE EXPANSION
OF THE AMERICAN WEST.
WAS LEWIS AND CLARK AND THE
CORPS OF DISCOVERY EXPEDITION --
WAS THAT A NECESSARY PRECURSOR
TO THE LATER EXPANSION AND THE
SO CALLED MANIFEST DESTINY?
OR, DO WE NEED TO LOOK AT LEWIS
AND CLARK ON ITS OWN MERITS?
THAT EXPEDITION?
IT HAD -- OBVIOUSLY IT'S RELATED
IF YOU LOOK AT IT IN HINDSIGHT.
BUT, WAS THERE ANY
IDEA, AT THAT TIME,
THAT THERE WOULD BE A MANIFEST
DESTINY, IF YOU WILL, TO FOLLOW?
>> NO, NOT REALLY.
I THINK IT'S REALLY GREAT
TO THINK OF THEM AS KIND
OF SEPARATE PHENOMENA.
I MEAN, THIS IS SO EARLY
IN THE EARLY REPUBLIC.
AND SO, AMERICANS ARE
STILL TRYING TO DEAL
WITH THE LEGACIES
OF THE REVOLUTION.
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW,
AND EXPEDITION THAT TOOK PLACE
FROM 1804 TO 1806,
THAT'S AUTHORIZED IN 1803.
WE'RE SO CLOSE TO
KIND OF THE, YOU KNOW,
ORIGINAL MOMENT OF
THE NEW REPUBLIC.
PEOPLE ARE STILL
TRYING TO UNDERSTAND
AND SETTLE THE OHIO
RIVER VALLEY.
SO, IT DIDN'T REALLY
QUITE HAPPEN
THAT THERE WAS A
DIRECT CONNECTION, THEN,
TOWARDS THE IDEAS OF MANIFEST
DESTINY, WHICH WERE COINED
BY JOHN O'SULLIVAN IN 1845.
IT DOES SETUP THAT SENSE THAT
WE DO HAVE A RIGHT OR A HISTORY
IN THIS KIND OF TERRITORY.
BUT, I THINK IT'S
ALWAYS MORE USEFUL
TO CONSIDER THE EARLY
EXPLORATION SEPARATE
FROM WHAT REALLY HAPPENS
AFTER THE WAR OF 1812.
I ALWAYS SAY THAT
THE WAR OF 1812
AND ITS AFTERMATH REALLY ENABLES
THE UNITED STATES TO EXPAND
AND HAVE A DIFFERENT VISION
OF ITSELF THEN IT HAD
BEFORE THE WAR OF 1812,
WHEN IT WAS STILL A
FRAGILE, EARLY REPUBLIC.
>> AND, AS YOU SAID
A MOMENT AGO,
THERE WERE THE FRENCH FUR
TRADERS AND FUR TRAPPERS
THAT WERE TRAVELING
THROUGH THIS REGION,
PRIOR TO THE ARRIVAL
OF LEWIS AND CLARK.
AND, THERE WERE SOME MOUNTAIN
MEN WHO DECIDED TO LIVE AMONGST
AND IN THE PLAINS, AND THE
MOUNTAINS, AND SO FORTH.
BUT, AS FAR AS THE FIRST JOURNEY
TO ACTUALLY OFFICIALLY DOCUMENT,
AND MAP, AND CHART ALONG
THE WAY, THIS WAS THE FIRST.
AND, THERE WERE SOME
SURPRISES, OF COURSE, THAT LEWIS
AND CLARK ENCOUNTERED.
WHAT WERE SOME OF THE BIGGEST
SURPRISES THAT THEY RAN INTO?
>> YEAH, PROBABLY THE
BIGGEST ONE WAS THE COLOSSAL
DISAPPOINTMENT OF THE
ENTIRE EXPEDITION.
THAT THERE WAS NO
EASY WAY TO GET
FROM BASICALLY SAINT LEWIS
TO THE PACIFIC COAST.
THAT THERE WAS NO
RIVER CONNECTION
ACROSS THE ROCKY MOUNTAINS.
THE ROCKY MOUNTAINS, I THINK,
WERE FRANKLY A TERRIBLE
SURPRISE.
THEY THOUGHT THERE WOULD
BE A MUCH EASIER WAY
TO GET ACROSS THE CONTINENT.
AND, THAT WAS ONE OF
JEFFERSON'S MAIN GOALS --
FIND AN EASY WAY TO GET
ACROSS THE CONTINENT.
I THINK THE OTHER BIG SURPRISES
-- THERE WERE SEVERAL --
ONE WAS THE SOPHISTICATION,
REALLY,
OF NATIVE AMERICAN
CULTURE OUT IN THE WEST.
ONE OF THE VILLAGES THEY STAYED
IN WHEN THEY GOT TO THE MANDAN
AND HIDATSA VILLAGES -- THESE
ARE COMMUNITIES WITH FOUR
OR FIVE THOUSAND INHABITANTS,
MULTIPLE TRIBES, IN ESSENCE.
SO, I THINK THEY WERE STUNNED
TO SEE, BASICALLY, A CITY.
IT WAS AS BIG, FRANKLY,
AS SOME CITIES
OF THE EARLY AMERICAN REPUBLIC.
WAY, WAY OUT ON THE FAR WESTERN
FRONTIER OF WHAT WAS THE,
YOU KNOW, NOT EVEN
THEN, THE UNITED STATES.
>> WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE FACT
THAT THERE WAS NO WATERWAY ALL
THE WAY TO THE PACIFIC COAST --
A BIG DISAPPOINTMENT, BUT ALSO,
IT COULD HAVE BEEN VERY TRAGIC.
BECAUSE WE KNOW WHAT
HAPPENED 40-SOME YEARS LATER
WITH THE DONNER PARTY THAT
RAN INTO A TERRIBLE SITUATION
IN THE SIERRA NEVADA'S.
SO, WHAT KEPT THIS JOURNEY, THE
CORPS OF DISCOVERY EXPEDITION,
FROM RUNNING INTO
THE SAME TRAGEDY
THAT THE DONNER PARTY DID?
>> IT CERTAINLY HELPED THAT
THEY WERE A MILITARY EXPEDITION.
SO, BECAUSE THEY WERE,
IN ESSENCE, CHARTERED
AND AUTHORIZED BY
THE GOVERNMENT,
AND THESE WERE COMMISSIONED
SOLDIERS, THERE WAS A SENSE
OF DISCIPLINE, ALRIGHT?
THERE WAS A SENSE OF ORDER.
THERE WAS A REAL
POWERFUL SENSE OF MISSION.
I THINK EVERYONE
INVOLVED IN THE MISSION --
EVEN THE MEN WE KNOW LESS
ABOUT THAN, FOR EXAMPLE,
LEWIS AND CLARK AND THE MAJOR
LIEUTENANTS AND SERGEANTS,
REALLY WERE COMMITTED
TO KIND OF FOLLOWING
THROUGH ON THE MISSION.
AND, THAT HELPED.
AND, OF COURSE, THEN THE MAJOR
FACTOR, I THINK, IN THEIR KIND
OF SUCCESS, UNLIKE
THE DONNER PARTY,
WAS THE ASSISTANCE
OF NATIVE PEOPLES.
I MEAN, THEY COULD NOT HAVE
DONE THIS WITHOUT BARTERING
AND TRADING WITH THE LOCALS
FOR INFORMATION, FOR FOOD,
FOR SUPPLIES, MATERIALS, HORSES,
BOATS, ALL KINDS OF THINGS.
>> AND, REALLY, THE MOST
AMAZING FACT ABOUT THE LEWIS
AND CLARK JOURNEY, TO ME, WHEN
I STUDIED IT MORE AND MORE,
WAS THE FACT THAT THEY ONLY
LOST ONE MAN ON THE JOURNEY,
OF THE ORIGINAL DISCOVERY TEAM.
AND, OUT OF ABOUT ROUGHLY
40 MEN, ONLY ONE WAS LOST
WHO DIED ALONG THE WAY.
AND, THAT WAS BECAUSE HE
HAD, BASICALLY, PERITONITIS,
WHICH IS A BURST APPENDIX.
SO, THERE WAS NOTHING THEY
COULD HAVE DONE ABOUT THAT.
HE PROBABLY WOULD HAVE
DIED EVEN IF HE HADN'T BEEN
ON THE JOURNEY, FROM
THAT SAME CONDITION.
>> RIGHT.
>> AND SO, THEY WERE VERY
LUCKY IN THAT REGARD.
THEY MANAGED TO GET THROUGH
ALL OF THEIR ENCOUNTERS
WITH THE NATIVE AMERICANS
WITHOUT LOSING ANYONE.
THERE WERE SOME TENSE
MOMENTS, OF COURSE.
BUT, THEY WERE ABLE
TO GET ALONG.
THEY WERE ABLE TO
NEGOTIATE EFFECTIVELY
WITH THE NATIVE AMERICANS.
AND, IN -- AS YOU MENTIONED,
THEY EVEN LIVED WITH THEM
IN A VILLAGE FOR
THE FIRST WINTER.
SO, THERE WAS ANOTHER
ASPECT OF THIS
THAT WE SHOULD ALSO TALK ABOUT,
AND THAT IS WILLIAM CLARK
BROUGHT ALONG HIS BLACK SLAVE
WITH HIM, A MAN BY
THE NAME OF YORK.
AND, HE WAS QUITE A FASCINATION
BY THE NATIVE AMERICANS.
MAYBE TALK ABOUT
THAT FOR A MOMENT.
>> YEAH. I THINK THE BIG
PART FOR THE FIRST SECTION
OF YOUR QUESTION IS THAT JUST
-- THEY WERE REALLY LUCKY A LOT.
I MEAN, JUST THE IDEA THAT
NO ONE, LIKE, BROKE A LEG.
NO ONE GOT SERIOUSLY INJURED,
EVEN WITH AN ACCIDENT,
ON THE WAY ACROSS IS
PRETTY REMARKABLE.
AND THEN, YES, I
THINK THE NATURE
OF THE PEOPLE THEY BROUGHT
WAS REALLY INTERESTING.
I MEAN, LEWIS WAS
OBVIOUSLY VERY EDUCATED,
HAD DONE THE BACKGROUND WORK
IN SCIENCE AND LANGUAGES.
AND THEN THEY HAD PEOPLE, LIKE
YORK, WHO SERVED, IN ESSENCE,
AS KIND OF A CULTURE BROKER.
HE WAS SOMEONE OF
GREAT INTEREST.
MOST NATIVE PEOPLES ON THE,
YOU KNOW, WESTERN PLAINS
AND BEYOND HAD NEVER SEEN
AN AFRICAN AMERICAN BEFORE.
SO, THEY WERE VERY INTERESTED
IN THESE TYPES OF THINGS.
AND THEN, OF COURSE, SACAGAWEA,
WHO WAS WITH THE [INAUDIBLE]
BECAME KIND OF A FACTOR
THAT ENABLED THEM TO
SEEM MORE PEACEFUL,
LESS LIKE A MILITARY PARTY,
AND A LITTLE MORE KIND OF HUMAN
AND RELATABLE, I THINK,
THEN THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN
HAD IT SIMPLY BEEN A STRAIGHT
MILITARY MISSION.
>> AND, YOU TALKED
ABOUT SACAGAWEA.
WE REFER TO HER USUALLY
AS SACAGAWEA [COMMON
PRONUNCIATION],
WHICH IS NOT THE
RIGHT WAY TO SAY IT.
BUT, THEN, NONETHELESS,
SHE WAS A 16-YEAR-OLD BRIDE
OF A FRENCH FUR TRADER.
SHE ALSO HAD A BABY THAT
SHE HAD TO CARRY WITH HER
AND CARE FOR ALONG THE WAY.
HAVE WE GIVEN HER ENOUGH
CREDIT FOR THIS JOURNEY?
AND, IF SHE HADN'T BEEN
ALONG, IS IT VERY POSSIBLE
THAT THINGS COULD
HAVE FALLEN APART?
>> YEAH, I THINK IN SOME WAYS --
AND THIS WILL SOUND LIKE
A TERRIBLE THING TO SAY --
I THINK WE'VE PROBABLY GIVEN
HER A BIT TOO MUCH CREDIT.
I KNOW WE WANT TO HUMANIZE
THE MISSION AND TALK
ABOUT ITS DIVERSITY IN THAT KIND
OF SENSE, BUT SHE WASN'T AS MUCH
OF A GUIDE, I THINK, AS MUCH
OF THE POPULAR LITERATURE
TALKS ABOUT.
I THINK HER MAIN KIND OF
ROLE, AND NOT TO UNDERESTIMATE
THAT ROLE -- AN IMPORTANT ROLE,
IS AGAIN, IS A TRANSLATOR.
RIGHT? SHE COULD
DO THE TRANSLATION
AND THE INTERPRETATION ALL TO
THE VERY PRESENCE OF A WOMAN --
A YOUNG WOMAN WITH A BABY,
REALLY MADE THE MISSION SEEM
LESS LIKE A WAR PARTY, RIGHT?
SEEMED LESS LIKE A
MILITARY MISSION DESIGNED
TO CONQUER THE WEST.
SO, I THINK IT HELPED
IN THAT KIND OF SENSE.
BUT, A LOT OF THE POPULAR
LITERATURE, YOU KNOW,
MAKES IT SOUND LIKE SHE SAVED,
KIND OF, THE EXPEDITION.
I'M NOT SURE IT'S THAT STRONG.
BUT, IT'S REALLY USEFUL
THAT SHE WAS THERE.
ONE INDICATION OF THE WAY
THEY THOUGHT ABOUT HER IS
WHEN YOU READ THE
ACTUAL JOURNALS.
AND, I ALWAYS ENCOURAGE
STUDENTS AND THE PUBLIC
TO READ THE GARY MOULTON
ONE-VOLUME ADDITION
OF THE JOURNALS.
AND, IT'S KIND OF SURPRISING
HOW MUCH MERIWETHER LOUIS KIND
OF BAD-MOUTHS HER, KIND OF
THROUGHOUT KIND OF THE JOURNEY,
AND FOUND HER KIND
OF A BIT IN THE WAY.
CLARK, ON THE OTHER HAND, REALLY
LIKED HER, AND CALLED HER JANEY.
GAVE HER A NICKNAME AND KIND OF,
YOU KNOW, HAD THIS REALLY KIND
OF MORE AFFECTIONATE
RELATIONSHIP WITH HER.
SO, I THINK SHE CERTAINLY
HELPED.
AND IS CERTAINLY IMPORTANT
TO THE MODERN ICONOGRAPHY
OF THE MISSION THERE.
>> WELL, IT'S INTERESTING,
WHAT YOU JUST SAID
ABOUT THE DIFFERENT PERCEPTIONS
OF SACAGAWEA BY CLARK AND LEWIS,
KIND OF SHOWS THE WHOLE
HUMAN SIDE OF THIS MISSION.
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
HUMAN BEINGS ULTIMATELY.
YES, IT'S A MILITARY-TYPE
OF MISSION
WITH FOLKS THAT ARE ADVENTURERS.
THESE ARE TOUGH MEN,
FOR THE MOST PART.
AND, THEY'RE GOING
ALONG AND RUNNING
INTO THESE DIFFERENT CULTURES.
THE DYNAMICS OF THOSE CULTURES
MUST HAVE BEEN VERY INTERESTING
IN TERMS OF THE INTERCULTURAL
INTERACTION
THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE.
BUT, YOU KNOW, IT SEEMS TO
ME THAT LEWIS AND CLARK WENT
INTO THIS VAST TERRITORY.
THEY HAD WEAPONS.
THEY DID HAVE SOME GUNS.
AND, THEY WERE ABLE TO USE THOSE
GUNS TO TRADE, IN SOME CASES.
BUT, THEY WEREN'T AN
OVERWHELMING FORCE.
THEY WERE CLEARLY
GOING TO BE OUTNUMBERED
BY ANY NATIVE AMERICANS THAT
THEY HAPPENED TO RUN INTO.
SO, THEY HAD TO USE NEGOTIATING
SKILLS THAT ARE DIFFERENT
FROM WHAT WE MIGHT SEE TODAY.
THEY DIDN'T COME IN
WITH SUPERIOR NUMBERS.
THEY COULDN'T RELY ON FORCE
OR COERCION TO NEGOTIATE.
ARE THERE ANY ENDURING LESSONS
FROM THAT -- FOR US TODAY?
>> YEAH, I THINK THERE ARE.
I MEAN, THEIR MISSION WAS, IN
ESSENCE TO NOT REALLY SUBJUGATE,
BUT TO AT LEAST TO
DECLARE AMERICAN DOMINION
OVER THESE KINDS OF TERRITORIES.
AND, THEY DID THAT
WITH EXCHANGE OF GIFTS.
THEY HAD THESE REALLY
FAMOUS METALS WITH A PICTURE
OF JEFFERSON ON ONE SIDE, TO
TRY TO ESTABLISH, IN ESSENCE,
DIPLOMATIC RELATIONSHIPS THERE.
BUT, I THINK WHAT YOU
SAID IS EXACTLY RIGHT.
THEY DIDN'T HAVE ANY
OVERWHELMING FORCE.
THEY HAD TO GO INTO THE WEST
WITH A SENSE OF HUMILITY.
WITH A SENSE THAT THEY REALLY
WERE DEPENDENT UPON THE PEOPLE
THEY WERE GOING TO ENCOUNTER.
AND, I THINK ONE OF THE
IMPORTANT LESSONS I ALWAYS DRAW
FROM THE LEWIS AND
CLARK EXPEDITION WAS
THAT SENSE OF HUMILITY.
I MEAN, THEY CAME IN WITH
REALLY STRONG ETHNOCENTRIC IDEAS
ABOUT SAVAGERY.
RIGHT? OR THE PRIMITIVENESS
OF NATIVE PEOPLES.
BUT, THEY REALIZED THAT
THEY WERE PEOPLE LIKE THEM
WITH DIFFERENT CULTURES.
AND, THEY WERE PEOPLE
THEY HAD TO DEPEND UPON.
AND, I THINK SOME OF THE
LESSONS OF THEIR VULNERABILITY
AS THEY MOVED THROUGH WOULD
BE REALLY USEFUL FOR US
TO LEARN IN THE 21ST CENTURY.
>> AND, THEY SPEND A WHOLE
WINTER IN THE MANDAN VILLAGE
IN BASICALLY NORTH
DAKOTA, I BELIEVE IT IS.
AND, SO, CAN WE IMAGINE WHAT
IT WAS LIKE HAVING THIS GROUP
OF CORPS OF DISCOVERY LIVING
WITH A VILLAGE OF INDIANS?
CAN YOU GIVE US SOME IDEA OF
WHAT THAT MUST HAVE BEEN LIKE?
>> YEAH, IT SOUNDS
LIKE, FROM THE JOURNALS,
IT WAS RELATIVELY CHAOTIC.
ONE OF THE MAJOR
TASKS THAT LEWIS
AND CLARK FACED WAS KEEPING THE
MEN FROM FRATERNIZING TOO MUCH
WITH NATIVE AMERICAN
WOMEN IN THESE GROUPS.
IT WAS A REAL SITE
OF CULTURAL EXCHANGE.
I THINK THAT WAS ONE OF
THE OTHER GREAT THINGS
THAT THE JOURNALS TELL
US, IS THAT THEY MOVED
THROUGH DOZENS OF
DIFFERENT TRIBES.
AND, MANY OF THOSE TRIBES,
THEMSELVES, ARE INTERACTING
AT A GIGANTIC CAMP
-- ALMOST A CITY,
LIKE THE MANDAN,
HIDATSA VILLAGES.
SO, THEY REALLY ENCOUNTER A
LOT OF DIFFERENT CULTURES.
THEY WERE EXPOSED TO DIFFERENT
NATIVE TRADITIONS THROUGHOUT THE
ENTIRE, KIND OF, PERIOD THERE.
AND SO, THE IDEA THAT ORDINARY
AMERICANS WHO'D GROWN UP REALLY,
FRANKLY, IN AN ENVIRONMENT
OF INDIAN HATING, RIGHT?
AN ENVIRONMENT OF REAL KIND
OF FEAR OF THE WILDERNESS,
IN FEAR OF THE OTHER, GOT TO
SPEND WEEKS AND WEEKS AT A TIME
IN THE WINTER WITH PEOPLE.
CHANGED PEOPLES' ATTITUDES IN
A LOT OF CASES ABOUT THE NATURE
OF DIFFERENCE AND
HOW YOU ENCOUNTER
AND DEAL WITH THE OTHER.
>> MHM. AND, I THINK THAT WE
TALKED ABOUT, IN A MEETING,
PRIOR TO THIS CONVERSATION, THAT
THERE WAS MUCH MORE OF A SENSE
OF DEMOCRACY, IF YOU WANT TO
CALL IT THAT, ALONG THE JOURNEY.
WHERE, IF YORK, WHO AGAIN
WAS WILLIAM CLARK'S SLAVE --
HE HAD A VOICE.
HE HAD A VOTE.
AND, SACAGAWEA HAD
A VOICE, AS WELL.
WHAT ABOUT THAT?
WAS THERE A SENSE OF DEMOCRACY
THERE THAT WAS ONLY POSSIBLE
BECAUSE THIS WAS A
PARTY THAT WAS TRAVELING
IN THE VAST UNKNOWN, AND THEY
REALLY NEEDED EACH PERSON
TO CONTRIBUTE?
>> I THINK SO.
I MEAN, THINK OF IT
AS A MILITARY PARTY.
THE DISCIPLINE NECESSARILY HAS
TO LOOSEN THE FURTHER
AWAY YOU GET
FROM AMERICAN CIVILIZATION,
QUOTE-ON-QUOTE.
AND, I THINK AS THEY MOVED
FURTHER AND FURTHER WEST,
PEOPLE HAVE TO STEP UP AND
TAKE UP DIFFERENT ROLES
THAT MIGHT NOT MATCH
THEIR STATUS IN THE PARTY.
SO, A LOWLY PRIVATE MIGHT
BE NEEDED TO DO SOMETHING
ABOVE THAT KIND OF RANK.
WHERE HERE IS THE,
YOU KNOW, THE SLAVE --
CLARK'S PERSONAL
SERVANT, TAKING ON KIND
OF BIGGER ROLES THAN THAT.
THE KEY, KIND OF
EARLY EXAMPLE OF KIND
OF PROTO MULTICULTURAL DEMOCRACY
HAPPENS IN THE SECOND WINTER.
AND, THEY HAVE TO DECIDE
WHETHER TO MOVE THEIR ENCAMPMENT
ACROSS THE COLUMBIA
RIVER FROM THE NORTH
TO THE SOUTH SIDE OF THE RIVER.
AND, EVERYONE GETS A VOTE.
AND, I THINK IT'S A REALLY
INTERESTING THING TO KIND
OF CONTEMPLATE, THAT HERE IN
REALLY WHAT WAS A, YOU KNOW,
A KIND OF ELITE WHITE
MAN'S DEMOCRACY --
HERE, IN 1805, RIGHT?
WE'RE HAVING A DISCUSSION
IN THAT WINTER OF 1805/1806
WHERE YOU'RE LETTING
A WIDE RANGE
OF PEOPLE PARTICIPATE
IN DECISION MAKING.
AND, MAYBE THAT'S POSSIBLE
BECAUSE OF THE NATURE
OF THE FRONTIER -- IT LOOSENS
THINGS UP A LITTLE BIT.
ONE OF THE GREAT
TRAGEDIES, I THINK,
IS WE DON'T REALLY KNOW
WHAT HAPPENS TO YORK,
FOR EXAMPLE, WHEN HE COMES BACK.
THERE ARE SOME STORIES
THAT HE'S FREED BY CLARK.
THERE'RE SOME STORIES THAT HE
WINDS UP BACK IN THE WEST KIND
OF LIVING AS AN INDEPENDENT
PERSON.
CLARK HIMSELF, THOUGH, TELLS
A STORY THAT AT THE END
OF THE DAY, YOU KNOW, HE SAYS
YORK BASICALLY COULDN'T DEAL
WITH HIS FREEDOM AND
WANTED TO COME BACK
AND BE HIS SLAVE AGAIN, WHICH
SEEMS A LITTLE SELF-SERVING.
BUT, THE IDEA THAT
PEOPLE WHO WERE NORMALLY
IN A REALLY SUBORDINATE POSITION
IN SOCIETY COULD HAVE
INDEPENDENCE, AUTONOMY,
AGENCY -- A REAL
SENSE OF A REAL ROLE,
MUST HAVE BEEN PROFOUNDLY
TRANSFORMING
FOR MANY PEOPLE OF THE PARTY.
AND THEN, OFF -- ALSO KIND
OF PROFOUNDLY DISAPPOINTING
WHEN THEY RETURNED
TO THE UNITED STATES.
>> AND, ON THAT NOTE, WE
HAVE TO GO TO THE BREAK.
AND, WHEN WE COME
BACK FROM THE BREAK,
WE'LL TALK ABOUT THE WILDLIFE
IN THE LOUISIANA TERRITORY,
AND WHY KEN BURNS REFERRED TO
THIS AS EDEN IN HIS DOCUMENTARY
ABOUT LEWIS AND CLARK.
STAY WITH US.
[ MUSIC ]
>> IS LAW SCHOOL IN YOUR FUTURE?
A DEGREE IN HISTORY WOULD
BE THE PERFECT MAJOR
FOR A STUDENT GOING
IN THAT DIRECTION.
PERHAPS YOU LIKE
HISTORY PRESERVATION.
OR MAYBE GOVERNMENT WORK IN A
FEDERAL, STATE, OR LOCAL LEVEL.
THEY ARE THE LARGEST
EMPLOYERS IN THE NATION.
AND, THEY ARE LOOKING FOR
PEOPLE WITH THAT KIND OF DEGREE.
THE OPPORTUNITIES ARE
ENDLESS, WITH A DEGREE
FROM CAL STATE LONG BEACH.
[ MUSIC ]
>> WELCOME BACK TO
TALKING POINTS.
I'M DAVE KELLY.
AND, MY GUEST TODAY
IS DR. BRETT MIZELLE.
BRETT, BEFORE WE WENT TO
THE BREAK, WE WERE TALKING
ABOUT THE HUMAN INTERACTION
THAT WAS INVOLVED IN THE LEWIS
AND CLARK CORPS OF DISCOVERY.
THAT WE SHOULD TALK ABOUT
THE WILDLIFE THAT EXISTED
IN THE UNCHARTED TERRITORY
OF THE LOUISIANA PURCHASE.
AND, I'M THINKING, PARTICULARLY,
OF THE GREAT PLAINS.
AND, I MENTIONED BEFORE
WE WENT TO THE BREAK
THAT IN KEN BURNS DOCUMENTARY
ABOUT LEWIS AND CLARK,
HE REFERRED TO THIS AREA AS EDEN
BECAUSE OF THE ABUNDANCE
OF THE WILDLIFE.
GIVE US A SENSE OF THE
SCALE AND THE SCOPE
OF THE WILDLIFE PRESENCE
IN THIS AREA.
>> YEAH. HARD TO IMAGINE
BY ANY CONTEMPORARY STANDARD
WE WOULD HAVE ABOUT HOW DIVERSE
AND NUMEROUS THE PLANT AND
ANIMAL LIFE WOULD HAVE BEEN
ON THE PLAINS AT
THIS PERIOD OF TIME.
YOU KNOW, MASSIVE
HERDS OF BISON.
YOU KNOW, TONS OF
VARIOUS DEER AND ANTELOPE.
ALL KINDS OF BIRDS.
YOU THINK AT THE SAME TIME,
AMERICANS EVEN BACK EAST ARE
NOTING THE TREMENDOUS FLOCKS
OF PIGEONS -- PASSENGER PIGEONS,
AND SO FORTH, THAT DOMINATED,
KIND OF, THE LANDSCAPE.
SO, YEAH. THERE WAS A
TREMENDOUS ABUNDANCE
OF WILDLIFE THAT THEY SAW.
AND, BASICALLY, ONE WAY
TO THINK OF THE CORPS
OF THE DISCOVERY IS BASICALLY
AS A GIGANTIC HUNTING PARTY.
THE JOURNALS METICULOUSLY
CHART THE NUMBER
OF THINGS THEY KILLED
EVERY DAY, BOTH FOR FOOD,
AND KIND OF FOR FUN, AS THEY
MOVED THROUGH THESE AREAS
WHERE THERE WAS SO
MUCH ABUNDANT WILDLIFE.
>> AND, WE SAW BISON, I GUESS,
AS FAR AS THE EYE COULD SEE.
AND THINGS OF THAT NATURE.
AND, AS WE KNOW, LATER ON, IT
BECAME SPORT OR GAME JUST TO GO
OUT AND SHOOT BISON
JUST BECAUSE THEY COULD.
AND, WE KNEW THAT THAT
WAS THE MAIN FOOD SOURCE
AND SUSTENANCE SOURCE
FOR THE NATIVE AMERICANS.
AND SO, THAT ENCOURAGED EVEN
MORE OF THAT, AS THE SETTLERS
AND THE MILITARY -- THE AMERICAN
MILITARY DECIDED TO DRIVE
OUT THE NATIVE AMERICANS.
BUT, WHEN WE TRIED
TO -- I SAY WE --
WHEN FOLKS OF THAT ERA TRIED
TO CAPITALIZE ON BUFFALO
AS AN ATTRACTION AT A
MUSEUM, NOBODY WAS INTERESTED
AT THAT TIME, BECAUSE
BUFFALO, AS IT TURNED OUT,
WERE TOO SIMILAR TO CATTLE.
AND THE ANTELOPE THAT
YOU TALKED ABOUT.
AND, THERE'S THAT FAMOUS
SONG ABOUT WHERE THE DEER
AND THE ANTELOPE PLAY, AND SO
FORTH, ON THE WIDE-OPEN RANGE.
ANTELOPE DIDN'T -- THE AMERICAN
ANTELOPE DIDN'T REALLY EXCITE
THE IMAGINATION, EITHER, BECAUSE
THAT WAS TOO SIMILAR TO DEER,
AND PEOPLE WERE VERY
FAMILIAR WITH THAT.
AND, IT ACTUALLY TURNED OUT
THAT WHAT PEOPLE WANTED,
IN TERMS OF GOING TO
SEE EXOTIC ANIMALS,
THEY WANTED TO SEE THE TIGERS;
THEY WANTED TO SEE LIONS,
AND ELEPHANTS, AND
THINGS LIKE THAT.
SO, WHAT ABOUT THAT, IN TERMS OF
WHAT LEWIS AND CLARK WERE ABLE
TO DISCOVER, ALTHOUGH IT
WAS IMPRESSIVE TO THEM,
IT DIDN'T IMPRESS VERY
MANY PEOPLE BACK HOME.
ESPECIALLY THINGS LIKE
PRAIRIE DOGS AND MAGPIES,
AND ALL THOSE OTHER
FURRY LITTLE CREATURES.
SO, IN TERMS OF THE AMERICAN
EXPERIENCE, WHY WERE PEOPLE
SO UNIMPRESSED WITH THOSE
ANIMALS THAT THEY FOUND?
>> YEAH. SO, MUCH OF MY
EARLIER WORK HAS BEEN ABOUT KIND
OF ANIMAL EXHIBITIONS.
AND SO, ONE OF THE THINGS
I WRITE ABOUT A LOT IS
WHEN EXOTIC ANIMALS
COME TO AMERICA.
AND SO, IN 1797, THE FIRST
ELEPHANT IS BROUGHT TO AMERICA.
AND, IT BECOMES SUCH
A PHENOMENON.
PEOPLE USED THE PHRASE
"TO SEE THE ELEPHANT"
TO MEAN HAVING HAD AN
EXPERIENCE OF LIFE.
AND THAT PHRASE LASTS ALL THE
WAY THROUGH THE CIVIL WAR.
SO, PEOPLE ARE EXCITED BY THINGS
THAT ARE REALLY DIFFERENT.
AND, AS YOU MENTIONED, A LOT OF
THE ANIMALS THEY DISCOVER AREN'T
THAT DIFFERENT, RIGHT?
THEY AREN'T THAT
KIND OF, YOU KNOW,
CHARISMATIC -- THEY'RE
NOT THAT BIG.
SO, THE PRAIRIE DOG
IS OF GREAT INTEREST.
AND, THEY BRING BACK
A PRAIRIE DOG.
AND, THE BRING BACK A MAGPIE.
THE PRAIRIE DOG SPENDS
SOME TIME, YOU KNOW,
SITTING IN HIS CAGE BY THE
FIREPLACE NEXT TO JEFFERSON.
BUT, THERE REALLY WASN'T
THAT MANY CHARISMATIC ANIMALS
UNTIL THEY DISCOVERED
THE GRIZZLY BEAR.
AND THAT BECAME THE
ANIMAL THAT STARTED
TO CATCH THE PUBLIC'S
IMAGINATION,
AS BASICALLY NORTH AMERICA'S
KIND OF PREMIERE PREDATOR --
LARGE, DANGEROUS, HARD TO
KILL, YOU KNOW, SAVAGELY WILD.
AND, THAT BECOMES AN ANIMAL
THAT GETS THE ATTENTION.
BUT, THEY NOTICED THAT THEY
WROTE ABOUT IT IN THE JOURNALS
AND HAD MANY ENCOUNTERS
WITH GRIZZLY BEARS.
VERY HEROINE ONES, IN SOME WAYS.
BUT, EVEN THEN, IT
TAKES MANY MORE YEARS
FOR THOSE SPECIMENS
TO BE BROUGHT BACK.
PIKE BRINGS BACK
SOME GRIZZLY BEARS
ABOUT 10 YEARS LATER
TO THE EAST COAST.
BUT, IT'S REALLY NOT UNTIL
THE, YOU KNOW, 1850S AND 1860S,
WHEN JAMES CAPEN AND
GRIZZLY ADAMS HELPS KIND
OF POPULARIZE THE GRIZZLY BEAR.
SO, WE JUST DIDN'T HAVE THE
TYPE OF WILDLIFE THAT SEEMED
AS EXCITING AS THE EXOTIC
CREATURES YOU COULD BRING
IN FROM OTHER PARTS
OF THE COUNTRY.
THERE'S A WAY IN WHICH AMERICANS
WEREN'T THAT INTERESTED
IN THEIR OWN NATURAL
PRODUCTIONS, RIGHT?
UNLESS THEY COULD USE THOSE
AS PART OF DEVELOPMENT, RIGHT?
RESOURCES THAT WE COULD
USE TO DEVELOP FOR WEALTH,
ACCUMULATION, OR EXPANSION.
>> AND, WHEN WE THINK ABOUT
THAT ABUNDANCE OF WILDLIFE,
THERE'S ALMOST A -- AS
KEN BURNS PRESENTED IT,
THERE'S ALMOST A WISTFUL
LONGING FOR THAT TODAY,
WHEN WE SEE FREEWAYS
EVERYWHERE AND DEVELOPMENT --
THINGS THAT SEEM UNNATURAL TO
US, COMPARED TO THAT NATURAL --
IN FACT, I WAS AT THE FARMER'S
MARKET OVER THE WEEKEND.
AND, THERE WAS A FELLOW
THERE SELLING PASTURE-FED,
RANGE-FREE BEES, AND
BISON, AND SO ON.
AND, THAT POSTER
LOOKED SO IDYLLIC.
YOU KNOW, YOU'VE GOT
BUFFALO GRAZING ON THE --
IN THE MEADOW WITH THE
HILLS, AND THE SUN IS
IN JUST THE RIGHT POSITION.
AND, SO, IT MAKES YOU
FEEL WISTFUL FOR IT.
AND, I'M GOING TO EAT THAT FOOD,
BECAUSE IT SEEMS MORE NATURAL.
BUT, THERE WAS A MOVEMENT,
MAYBE 20, 25 YEARS AGO,
CALLED THE BUFFALO COMMONS,
WHICH WAS TRYING TO RECREATE
THAT SENSE OF COMMON
GRAZING LAND FOR BUFFALOS.
TELL US ABOUT THAT.
WHAT WAS THAT EFFORT ABOUT?
AND, IS THERE ANY CHANCE
OF IT ACTUALLY TAKING HOLD
BEYOND THE THEORETICAL STAGE?
>> YEAH. WHAT'S INTERESTING
ABOUT THE USE OF THE LEWIS
AND CLARK JOURNALS AS A SOURCE,
IS THAT THEY DO, IN SOME WAYS,
HELP YOU GET A BASELINE
FOR WHAT WE'VE LOST, RIGHT?
THERE REALLY IS A VERY CLEAR
DECLENSION, RIGHT, OF A DECLINE
OF THE NUMBER AND
QUANTITY OF ANIMALS,
AND ANIMAL SPECIES IN AMERICAN.
AND, THE BUFFALO COMMONS
PROJECT IN THE 1970S BY A PAIR
OF SCIENTISTS FROM THE EAST
COAST, WHO SUGGEST, BASICALLY,
THAT GIVEN THE FACT THAT
THE GREAT PLAINS AREA IS
DEPOPULATING AND THAT IT'S
NOT THE MOST USEFUL LAND
FOR AGRICULTURE -- IT'S
VERY WATER-INTENSIVE
AND NOT VERY PRODUCTIVE, THAT
MAYBE WE SHOULD, IN ESSENCE,
RESTORE THAT LAND TO WHAT IT
LOOKED LIKE AT THE TIME OF LEWIS
AND CLARK, AND REPLANT THE
SHORTGRASS PRAIRIE ENVIRONMENT,
REINTRODUCE BISON WHERE
THEY COULD BE AND KIND
OF RESTORE THE HABITAT, RIGHT?
FOR THESE KINDS OF ANIMALS.
IT'S REALLY INTERESTING,
IN THE 1980S, REALLY,
THE PROGRAM WAS KIND
OF LAUGHED AT.
THERE WAS A LOT OF
BACKLASH AGAINST IT.
A LOT OF FEARS THAT
THE GOVERNMENT WOULD
LIKE TAKE PEOPLE'S LAND.
BUT, IT'S REALLY BEEN PICKED
UP BY PRIVATE LANDOWNERS --
TED TURNER, FOR BEING ONE OF
THEM, HAS REPOPULATED MUCH
OF HIS LANDS WITH
PRAIRIE AND BISON.
AND ALSO BY NATIVE
AMERICAN GROUPS,
WHICH HAVE CREATED A COALITION,
WHERE THEY WORK TOGETHER NOW
TO RESTORE PRAIRIE LANDSCAPES
AND REINTRODUCE BISON.
SO, IN SOME WAYS, I THINK IT'S
AN IDEA WHOSE TIME HAD NOT COME
IN THE 1970S.
BUT, MAYBE NOW, AS
WE START THINKING
ABOUT GLOBAL WARMING, RIGHT?
ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS FOR
CREATING MORE PRAIRIE LANDSCAPES
ON THE GREAT PLAINS IS
CARBON SEQUESTRATION.
IT ALLOWS US TO DO SOMETHING
ABOUT, KIND OF, GLOBAL WARMING.
AND WOULD ALSO BRING TOURISM TO
ENVIRONMENTS WHERE, YOU KNOW,
PEOPLE DON'T REALLY
VISIT THAT MUCH ANYMORE.
>> MHM. WELL, LET'S
TALK ABOUT LEWIS
AND CLARK IN THEIR OWN TIME.
AND THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS,
WHEN THEY RETURNED IN 1806,
THEY DIDN'T PUBLISH ANYTHING
WHEN THEY FIRST CAME BACK.
AND, A LOT OF PEOPLE --
MOST PEOPLE DIDN'T EVEN KNOW
ABOUT THIS EXPEDITION.
JEFFERSON, IN FACT, HAD SENT
OUT OTHER EXPEDITIONS, AS WELL,
TO MAKE SURE -- IN CASE LEWIS
AND CLARK DIDN'T COME BACK,
A LOT OF PEOPLE THOUGHT
THEY'D PROBABLY GET KILLED
OR THEY WOULD MAKE
IT BACK ANYWAY.
AND SO, THEY WEREN'T REALLY
APPRECIATED AT THAT TIME.
AND, IN FACT, SOME
PEOPLE HAVE SAID, AT BEST,
IT WAS A DISAPPOINTMENT
-- THE EXPEDITION.
AND, AT WORST, IT
WAS A DISMAL FAILURE.
WHY WAS IT CONSIDERED
A FAILURE AT THAT TIME?
>> YEAH. I THINK THE INTERESTING
REASON WHY IT DIDN'T GET
PERCEIVED AS A REAL
SUCCESS AT THE TIME WAS
THAT THEY HAD RELATIVELY
MODERATE GOALS,
WHICH THEY ACHIEVED, BY THE WAY.
RIGHT? THEY FOUND A ROUTE TO
THE, YOU KNOW, PACIFIC OCEAN.
THEY NEGOTIATED WITH
DOZENS OF TRIBES.
THEY RECORDED INFORMATION ABOUT
THE NATURAL AND CULTURAL HISTORY
OF THAT KIND OF LANDSCAPE.
BUT, PEOPLE WERE
GOING WEST ANYWAY.
AND, I THINK THAT'S WHY IT
DIDN'T MAKE A BIG DIFFERENCE.
WHEN YOU READ THE ENDS OF
THE JOURNALS ON THE RETURN,
WHICH ARE ALWAYS LESS EXCITING,
RIGHT, THAN THE JOURNALS
ON THEIR WAY OUT, RIGHT?
THEY'RE CONSTANTLY NOTING PEOPLE
GOING THE OTHER DIRECTION.
RIGHT? AS THEY'RE
COMING BACK TO ST. LOUIS,
THEY'RE NOTING ALL THESE
PEOPLE GOING THE OTHER WAY.
SO EXPANSION WAS HAPPENING,
REGARDLESS OF WHAT THEY DID.
AND THEN, THERE WAS
SOME OTHER ISSUES,
WHY THEY JUST DIDN'T REALLY
CAPITALIZE ON IT, RIGHT?
THE FIRST PERSON TO PUBLISH
THEIR JOURNAL IS PATRICK GASS,
AND THEN NICHOLAS BIDDLE KIND
OF EDITS A VERSION THERE.
LEWIS NEVER WROTE UP KIND
OF THE RESPONSE, YOU KNOW --
WROTE UP THE JOURNALS, OR,
YOU KNOW, CREATED A RECORD
OF THE ADMINISTRATION.
SO, IT KIND OF JUST DISAPPEARED
A LITTLE BIT FROM HISTORY,
SO MUCH SO THAT BY
1876, BY THE, YOU KNOW,
THE AMERICAN CENTENNIAL,
IT DIDN'T APPEAR
IN TEXTBOOKS VERY MUCH.
I MEAN, IT WAS MAYBE MENTIONED
-- IT GOT A LINE OR TWO.
SO, ONE OF THE THINGS I LOVE
AS A HISTORIAN WAS, YOU KNOW,
I [INAUDIBLE] HISTORICAL MEMORY.
AND, THEY KIND OF DROP-OFF
OF HISTORICAL MEMORY
PRETTY MUCH RIGHT AWAY.
AND THEN ONLY REEMERGE IN
THE EARLY 20TH CENTURY.
IN THE EARLY 20TH CENTURY,
WE HAVE THE CENTENNIAL
OF THE EXPEDITION.
THERE'S A BIG WORLD'S
FAIR IN ST. LOUIS.
THERE'S A LOT OF INTEREST IN THE
IDEAS OF THE FRONTIER AND KIND
OF THE LOSS OF WILDLIFE.
SO, REALLY, EVER SINCE THE
BEGINNING OF THE 20TH CENTURY,
THEY'VE KIND OF BECOME MORE AND
MORE WELL KNOWN, WITH BETTER
AND BETTER WORK DONE
WITH THE JOURNALS,
TO KIND OF REALLY THINK
ABOUT THE COMPLEXITY
OF WHAT THEY ACCOMPLISHED
BETWEEN 1804 AND 1806.
>> SO, AND, AS YOU
MENTIONED, AT THE CENTENNIAL
OF THE EXPEDITION, WHICH
WAS IN THE EARLY 1900S,
OF COURSE WE HAD TEDDY
ROOSEVELT AS OUR PRESIDENT.
AND, HE WAS THE ROUGH RIDER;
HE WAS THE ADVENTURER.
SO, MAYBE THE ADVENTURE STORY
FIT WELL WITH HIS ADMINISTRATION
AND WHAT HE WAS DOING.
>> OH, CERTAINLY.
AND, IT ALSO FIT
WELL, WHEN YOU THINK
ABOUT FREDERICK JACKSON
TURNER'S, YOU KNOW,
1893 KIND OF REALLY
THESIS, YOU KNOW, AT THE --
RELEASES ON THE FRONTIER
THESIS, RIGHT?
WHERE HE KIND OF TALKS ABOUT
THE FRONTIER IS CLOSED.
SO, PEOPLE WERE VERY AWARE, I
THINK, IN AMERICA, THAT THAT ERA
OF THE HISTORY -- OF
US HISTORY WAS OVER.
AND SO, THERE'S KIND OF A
NOSTALGIA, IN SOME WAYS,
FOR THINKING ABOUT THAT
EARLY MOMENT OF EXPLORATION,
WHEN THE FRONTIER WAS
STILL THE FRONTIER.
NOW THAT IT'S CLOSED,
WE CAN LOOK BACK DIFFERENTLY
ON LEWIS AND CLARK.
>> WE'RE STARTING TO RUN LOW
ON TIME IN THIS SECOND SEGMENT.
SO, LET'S TALK A LITTLE
BIT ABOUT WHAT WE KNOW
ABOUT MERIWETHER LEWIS --
THAT HE ACTUALLY SUFFERED
FROM SOME MENTAL INSTABILITY.
WE THINK IT WAS PROBABLY
BIPOLAR SYNDROME.
SO, THERE WERE DAYS AT A TIME
WHEN HE JUST WOULDN'T WRITE
ANYTHING IN THE JOURNAL.
HE WOULD BECOME VERY
INCOMMUNICATIVE.
AND THEN HE DIED.
AND, MOST PEOPLE DO
BELIEVE IT WAS A SUICIDE.
WHAT DO WE KNOW ABOUT
MERIWETHER LEWIS,
AND HIS MENTAL STATE,
AND HIS SUICIDE?
>> YEAH. LEWIS IS ONE OF THE
-- FOR ME, ONE OF THE GREAT
AND GREAT TRAGIC FIGURES
OF AMERICAN HISTORY.
JEFFERSON HAD KNOWN HIM FOR
A LONG TIME, AND REALLY KIND
OF ENCOURAGED HIS CAREER
AND HIS KIND OF DEVELOPMENT,
BUT KNEW HE HAD A
MELANCHOLY CAST OF MIND.
THAT WAS A WORD THEY
USED ABOUT HIM A LOT.
AND, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S
REALLY INTERESTING WHEN YOU WORK
WITH STUDENTS WITH
THE JOURNAL IS,
ONE OF THE ASSIGNMENTS
I GIVE THEM IS NOTE
WHEN LEWIS DISAPPEARS.
HE GOES FOR WHOLE SECTIONS
WHERE HE JUST CAN'T WRITE.
AND, ONE OF THE THOUGHTS A
LOT OF SCHOLARS HAVE IS THAT,
YOU KNOW, HIS DEPRESSION
HAS CAUGHT UP WITH HIM.
HE JUST CAN'T FIND THE
STRENGTH, IN ESSENCE,
TO PUT KIND OF PEN TO PAPER.
AND SO, THERE HAVE BEEN
ALL KINDS OF DEBATES
ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS AT
GRINDER'S STAND IN 1809.
BUT, MOST HISTORIANS CONSIDER,
YOU KNOW, THE SAD RESULT
OF -- IT WAS ABOUT SUICIDE.
HE HAD RETURNED FROM
THE JOURNEY.
HE HAD TROUBLE WITH ALCOHOL
BOTH BEFORE AND AFTER.
HE'D NEVER FOUND A WIFE.
HE'S 35 YEARS OLD.
HE HAS A DESK JOB.
HE'S BEING PURSUED BY CREDITORS.
HE'S GOT A LOT OF KIND
OF TURMOIL IN HIS LIFE.
AND THEN, SADLY, HE TAKES
HIS OWN LIFE IN 1809
AT A RELATIVELY YOUNG AGE.
A PERSON WHO HAD
TREMENDOUS POTENTIAL.
>> WE'VE RUN OUT OF TIME.
WE HAVE ABOUT 30 SECONDS LEFT.
I'M GOING TO GIVE YOU A
CHANCE TO ANSWER THIS --
THIS IS A BIG QUESTION.
THE MOON LANDING --
ASTRONAUTS GOING TO THE MOON --
BIG ADVENTURE, THE FINAL
FRONTIER, AND THIS --
THE AMERICAN FRONTIER --
CAN WE EQUATE THE TWO?
>> I THINK SO, IN THE SENSE
THAT IT'S A REALLY REMARKABLE
JOURNEY PEOPLE THOUGHT
WAS IMPOSSIBLE.
RIGHT? NO ONE REALLY THOUGHT
THIS WAS KIND OF POSSIBLE.
I THINK THE REALLY
BIG DIFFERENCE IS
THAT THERE WAS A
DIFFERENT CULTURAL FRAMEWORK
AROUND THE MOON LANDING,
WHERE THOSE MEN WERE
REALLY CELEBRATING.
WHEN THEY RETURNED, THEY
WERE TREATED AS HEROES.
THEY WERE SEEN AS TRUE,
KIND OF, PIONEERS.
WHEREAS, YOU KNOW,
SADLY, THE LEWIS
AND CLARK EXPEDITION
DIDN'T QUITE GET THE CREDIT,
AT LEAST IN THEIR OWN TIME,
THAT THEY PROBABLY DESERVED.
>> AND ON THAT NOTE, WE'LL
HAVE TO BRING THIS TO A CLOSE.
I WANT TO THANK YOU
FOR BEING HERE TODAY.
>> YOU'RE WELCOME.
>> AND, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US
ON THIS EDITION OF
TALKING POINTS.
JOIN US AGAIN SOON
FOR THE NEXT EPISODE.
UNTIL THEN, I'M DAVE KELLY.
HAVE A NICE DAY.
[ MUSIC ]
