Everybody's got the same basic wiring regardless of the age, gender, or ethnicity. Terrorist leaders, these are still human beings
Hostage negotiators know how to get in and cause an actual productive dialogue or at least you're gonna think it's a productive dialogue
You said the most dangerous
Negotiation is the one you don't know you're in. I know what chemical changes are going on and the minute you articulate
What's in the other guy's head? That's how we get in the side door
Nobody in my company tries to get anybody to say
Yes, I'm gonna get you to say no because I know you're gonna react differently
You'll instantly begin to think about how to make something work
Everybody you talked to could help you if they felt like it
We prosecuted Muslim terrorists in civilian court
Nobody get killed nothing blew up and the vast majority of our witnesses were Muslims who were testifying
voluntarily against other Muslims
How we do that by seeing things from their point of view?
Don't be in such a hurry get to lay out your case
Being hurry to hear the other side out. Then you begin to connect with people on a human level we
Said the goal of the negotiation is not to get the other side to say
Yes, the goal of the negotiation is to get the other side to go
That's right
They say that the human race is doomed
That we have lost touch with our true nature
That the media has corrupted us and that the planet has the future. I
Disagree I
believe that humanity is full of hope and
that our salvation
Lies within each one of us
My name is Brian rose in my job is to listen the oldest method of learning known to man
Each week I seek out individuals that are changing the world's people who are living and thinking in a different way
their stories will challenge your beliefs make you question your choices and perhaps
inspire you to change I
Never planned on doing any of this
but now I
can't stop
Join me on this mission and make humanity something we can all be proud of
It's time for you to man up to once and for all
Tell you mine who the fuck is boss. I need a fuckin answer. What's it gonna be? I
Don't know what it is about this fucking sport but it attracts people that really need to do deep work on themselves I
Failed in the city
All these bad memories. I never really felt like I gave a fuck about me or my life. I
Almost killed myself like
Think about something that is going to drive you when it really hurts some kind of demon you want to fight
This is not pussy man, this is Iron Man
Under pressure reveals true character. What are you gonna do?
I'm gonna be in Chattanooga May 20 at the woods
How do you negotiate with a terrorist
or a criminal
well, it turns out the same way you negotiate with a businessman and that's what Chris boss is here to tell us he was the
FBI lead
Kidnapping negotiator for many years of his life and he spoke with people about things that really mattered and he says the most dangerous
Negotiation you'll ever be in is the one you don't know you're in and he also said that negotiation is really about collaboration
It's not about your way or my way by finding a third way where we both get added benefit
He also talked about the danger of getting someone to say. Yes, and the power of getting them to say no very counterintuitive stuff
I really enjoyed my time with Chris he reminds me we have a really hardened old FBI agent or a cop
It's done the beat work and he really has but then he also talks about the neuroscience of negotiation
I know you're gonna love this episode. It's packed with incredible tips
I've been negotiating in business for 20 years and I learned a ton here and
You'll learn a ton as well inside the London real academy
We've got things happen in our broadcast yourself course
Speak to inspire and of course the Business Accelerator and you can take our free courses at London real dot TV
Here is a little bit more about it
London real doesn't stop when the conversation ends. You see, that's when we get started
Because everything begins with a thought and then comes the action
The London real Academy is our global transformation platform here. We bring together thousands of students from over 75 countries
Whether you want to build a profitable business from your passion or learn to speak to inspire or broadcast yourself with your very own
Podcasts or accelerate your life to become a high-performance person
We have the online accountability course and personal mentoring program. That will make your dream a reality
Join us and will take your life to the next level together
Our next accelerate of course is starting soon
This is London real I am Brian rose my guest today is Chris Voss the former FBI lead international kidnapping negotiator
Who handled more than 150 international hostage cases and spent three years investigating the first bombing of the World Trade Center
you are the co author of the best-selling book never split the difference and the founder and principal of the Black Swan group a
Consulting firm that advises fortune 500 companies to perform complex negotiations Chris. Welcome to London real. Thank you, Brian
I'm happy to be here. Yeah, I like how you socks almost match. My book to hate was that on purpose?
Yeah, it's not on purpose, but I'm glad you noticed
you know, I want to know what's it like to be in London and you know, are there any
Negotiators from British times that you might admire that are from this country. And what's it like being yer, is that it a different vibe?
Socially and without effect ago she ations differently cuz I know you're doing some consulting while you're here now, you know
We drive at human nature stuff
so everybody's got the same basic wiring in there would our neuroscience brothers and
psychologists would call the limbic system and
It's it's an awful the analogy. I like to use all the time is it's like the respiratory system
Everybody's got a respiratory system that operates on the same rules
Nobody's got a limbic system the emotional system operates on the same rules. So things kind of interesting about it is
Bias, you can if you could control your breath you'd say I you know, I'll hold my breath
And you can you can control your emotions from about the same amount of time
You can tell yourself to calm if you're upset
you can tell yourself calm down calm down and that will last for as long as you can hold your breath and then
emotions kick right back in and
Hostage negotiator. I just know how to get in there and
massage that occasionally
So we're all humans. Basically, we all behave kind of the same way in the same patterns regardless of the age
gender or ethnicity
Okay
And you're teaching businessman here
But is a businessman any different from a kidnapper or a bank robber or a gang member when it comes to negotiations
business may get upset more
They're more emotional than the terrorists are why is that you know, it's kind of crazy
But it's actually really true business people have more stories of getting screamed at and people getting upset because both sides
Are sort of on raw emotion
You put somebody in the middle of that that can dial somebody's emotions up or down right away
You're not gonna get upset with me and so hostage negotiators know how to get in and cause an actual productive dialogue
Or at least you're gonna think it's a productive dialogue
Immediately, you're gonna feel listen to you stop people yell
Because they don't feel like they're being heard
Like my first job is to make you feel like you're being heard so you can stop yelling
When people yell and swear, is that because they don't have power
Is that kind of a sign of weakness sometimes like when I see parents yelling at their kids?
It's it's almost a sign that they're not in control sometimes. Yeah. Well, it's all fear. It's it's all for your base
They're afraid of something one way or another, you know parent yells at the child
It's more they're afraid that the child is gonna be on the wrong track and they got a vision in their head
disaster of the if this child keeps his behavior up, you know, you're not gonna learn you're not gonna be
Educated you're not gonna give it a college degree. You're not gonna do this. You're not gonna do that
The human brain is wired to be overly negative. Okay, and so one way or another
That's what causes us or if I yell at you. It's not because I feel powers but because I feel urgent see
And it's something as silly as if you start start yelling at me
The first thing I might say is it sounds like this is really important
Well, that was the first
Message you were trying to get across. I thought I needed to understand it was important. So you'll immediately calm down. Okay, gotcha
Nice. All right, then
I know we're gonna go through some techniques and some things that people can use in their everyday lives because you said the most dangerous
Negotiation is the one you don't know you're in right and we're in negotiations all the time that we're not aware of, right?
Yeah, I know
I'm definitely in negotiations with a lot of people at times that they're not aware of and so I want to talk about that
I want to hear about your history with bank robbers and kidnappers, but I wanted to kick off and talk about robbers
We got to talk about my in-laws. Oh, yeah, we'll talk about that to you right on kids as well, right?
Probably tougher. I wanted to kick off and talk about
Trump with Kim jong-un in North Korea
I know you wrote an article about that, right?
But I wondered if you could just break down what you see as the negotiation tactics between those two gentlemen
even over the past year and I know you wrote an article about it and maybe you can even say what you see as
With Trump as a negotiator again. We've never really had an American president. It was kind of a businessman first
So it's a different angle different priorities
Different unknown unknowns as you talked about. What did you see him doing successfully or unsuccessfully
I was so surprised initially, you know all the name-calling early on and the fact that it ended up in such a good place
okay, so he called him rocket man and Kim called him kind of rational stuff that surprised you that didn't seem like a tactic that
That ended up in such a great place. Okay, but then you know now that we're looking at it
I mean both of these guys are sort of the classic
aggressive negotiator the world kind of splits into three types
One of them is a natural-born aggressive slash is sort of that happens to be my default type. Okay aggressive assertive is one type
It's any other to our well, it's it's fight/flight make friends
The caveman response to threat was if they saw if the caveman saw something he didn't know what it was
He's either gonna fight it he's gonna run from it. He's gonna try to make friends with it
Those were the three cavemen that survived. Okay, that's how our emotions are wired
And those are three kind of types of negotiation times negotiators
Okay fight flight, although some would say fight flight make mate, right, but we fight flight make friends
Okay, and Trump's a fight guy. You know, I'm a fight guy. That's my natural born type
the other thing too is the world splits pretty evenly into thirds no matter whether you're from whether you're Asian whether you're African whether you're
Latino whether we're view from the world splits pretty much evenly into thirds
We've seen it enough. We tested it enough that we're pretty satisfied with that
Okay
Is it most likely the two people involved in a high-level?
Negotiation won't be the flight type or it could be the flight type, you know, if the world breaks evenly into
Thirds then one out of only one out of three times as your counterpart gonna be the same as you in
Government most are not fighters
heads of government most of them are make friends or
Flight analysts very analytical. They suit conflict is something to be avoided
even our leaders most government leaders are
They got there by compromise. They're thinking about their career their image long term things, right?
Okay, so it's already rare that we got a president. That's the aggressive one. That's an aggressive. Yeah, okay
We've had a few in the past
Do you?
But not with the same Xterra me. Ronald Reagan was a fight guy, right but more Teddy Roosevelt fight guy waters
You know speak softly carry a big stick. You're talking about carrying a big stick your fight guy. Okay
All right, so watching these two behaves started off with the name-calling
Then we had kind of a negotiate a meeting that was on then it was off than it was on
You saw the way they behaved with each other and then you saw the way they both concluded it afterwards
What are some of the elements you see there in negotiation?
Well, not just the elements in this negotiation, but it's also a preview of the future in a number of different ways
They they got they got into details right away
I mean
I think both sides realize that if I let this get too far out of control if I let the other side start to
backtrack and renege on promises or
Not follow through this is gonna go bad. I'm gonna look stupid, right?
And I saw President Trump and his crew, you know
The team is team of core advisors around them like Mike Pompeo the other people that I think he's listening to him
They're saying Mike Pompey was one of the main ones they realized that this could go bad in a hurry, sir
They're not gonna let it get an inch out of line. And that's why he initially said, you know, this could go bad
You know if they don't follow through we're not even gonna go to Singapore. He's signaling the other side look
You know don't backtrack
I'm not even gonna show and in he said he also said look I'll know in the first first few seconds that I'm there whether
That's gonna do any good. Okay, which is really easy signaling to the other side like the minute. We think this is going sideways
We're not gonna let you make us look stupid
We're telling the world
That we're ready to back out of this in a heartbeat
if you if you don't follow through if you if you mess around with this at all, which I
Think it's it's a in this instance. It's a great focus on implementation
And it'll be the one time that we have the best chance at causing North Korea to stick to their promises
Okay, so that's a good tactic on Trump's Park
I think I think it's phenomenal because it were in a way if there was no meeting me might have said differently but an impressive
Tactic, but probably only one that he could have pulled off as an aggressive guy. Yeah with the and also with this focus, I mean
Previously American. I don't know what's wrong with American presidents
They don't want to dignify the dictator by showing up and sitting down, you know
they're worried about losing face or
Then they're what they're worried about is a previous history of North Korea making promises and not following through with them
Yeah, they look stupid and then the whole meeting goes in Kim Jong Un's favorite. Yeah, it's all nonsense
Now Trump has always been kind of this profile. I'm an erratic guy
You know, he's also got a big track record with his business and with buildings with his name on there
So he brings a lot of baggage to the table. Maybe that is good for him
Is that something you think he calculates because if you're dealing with someone that's erratic, you know
It could be an upper hand in negotiations Asians, right?
Well, he's erratic but he's you might refer to him as heretic, but he's not without patterns
Somebody can be erratic and be eminently predictable. Okay
Nobody's surprised by any invite that he tweets nobody, you know
He keeps doing the same thing over and over again people surprised by it. That's ridiculous. He's he's he sticks
He's true to his form. He's true this type. He does he continues to do the same thing which at this point in time
He's like this. This is a pattern that's got me this far
It's silly for me to change at this point in time
People wanted him to be a different guys president in the United States
He's like, why do I why do I change from my pattern of success up to now? That's just in his thinking that's silly
Yeah, and two years later people are starting to think he's crazy like a fox. I mean people are starting to admire
What he can get done even though no one agreed with or understood the politically incorrect
Tactics that he did it but it's starting to look like there's a method to the madness
And yeah, exactly and what he can get done which she sort of negotiator has, you know, and I did this myself, you know
We don't burn bridges we bomb them
so who explained that well you you
aggressive assertive negotiator will have a tendency to hit a few home runs in a given area and
then no one will talk to them anymore and
They then at that point in time, they can't make nobody since nobody will talk to anymore. He can't make deals anymore. Okay?
now what the advantage he's gotten in foreign policy Rome and we're gonna my prediction is
North Korea isn't gonna be the only success he's gonna have in foreign policy because you know
It goes to North Korea. He takes this approach and he starts beating people around
But there's two things that's different than any other American president first is you know, he's willing to get in there himself
so the other side wants to talk to the American president and
They're gonna cut a deal in North Korea. Now, the Iranians are seeing this and they're thinking
if North Korea can cut a deal with Trump I
bet we can -
now the other
Added element that people tend to ignore is no American president tries to do anything in foreign policy-wise
until the second half of their second term and
Every other country in a volatile area on a planet knows this I was in Ramallah
where the
government for the Palestinian
organization is in 2008 right after Obama got elected and
The leadership there said out God we hate this because it's going to be six years before anybody tries to do anything in the Middle
East because no American president will touch a foreign policy issue till the second half of the second term
What did President Obama did didn't try to do anything foreign?
Diplomatically until the second half of his second term by then
The relationship with is really been poisoned to the point where they're like where can we go?
We got to go to Iran and then an American president looks desperate and the other side knows
That all they got to do is wait till the last minute and Americans will capitulate because the clock is running out on them
President Trump is not it's not wait sticking around
And he's not putting himself under any deadlines cuz he's got plenty of time, right?
So these guys know the clock is not working against him
But they're very encouraged because he's got he's got the backbone to go into foreign policy in a big way
Early in his administration and no other American president has done that and I think Iran
Even of Palestinians everybody's gonna be encouraged by that interesting. What do you rate him as a negotiator from 1 to 10
Well, isn't it he's a he's a he's a prototype classic assertive, right? But is he good? He's good at that. Okay
He's good at the deals that it requires a baseball bat to get the deal done
But eventually people get tired of hit and getting hit with the baseball bat
Which is interestingly enough, which publicly is a baseball bat guy
But privately sits down and suddenly he's buddies with people and suddenly he's chums with kim jeong-hoon. Yeah
He's a nice guy. Like, you know, we had a good time with him. I really genuinely means that right
I think he does Nicky does too
You said in the book that it's someone six times more likely to make a deal with someone if they like that person
Likable is a huge. So if you don't have to change your position that crazed a lot more about being likable
I mean, that's great
I mean
It's a crazy thing to know it's that much
Because technically you'd think that Kim would be thinking about a deal for the country for the next 100 years
Maybe even for economics, but the last thing he'd be thinking is is a personal relationship
But because you know the max that'll be is six years and yet it has such a bearing because we're emotional creatures. Right, right
That's why you're still in business because you're teaching people how to tap into that. Right? Yeah. We're an analytic society
You know, we like to know the numbers work, but when it comes to negotiations that goes out the window
Well emotions come in the window. Okay and how our brain reacts and see the other thing about being likable. That's that's a strategic advantages
You're also up to 31 percent smarter in a positive frame of mind
so if you're if I'm likable, you're gonna be in a better mood and
Not only will you think of better ideas in our negotiation you'll also be more inclined to put them on the table for me
Because you were smarter and you like me. Hmm, so I'll be smarter because I'm in a better mood
What I'll be smarter cuz I'm in a better will if I smile at you? Okay, so I actually I hit your mirror neurons
It's an involuntary response. There's a chemical change in your brain and your brain capacity actually increases huh? It just work when you smile
All right, so you're seeing some things now
The fascinating thing is when they finished and you talk about this in the book as well these concept of unknown unknowns
So what people go into a deal together and say it's something that's ultra simple
Like I'm going to buy something at a store and the price as this and the product is this and you think there's nothing else
to negotiate about when in fact
There's all of this unknown territory that people can cut deals here and there and people can walk out extremely
satisfied even if they paid double or
Extremely unsatisfied even if they sold the product
Kim wants to go back and said I did this and Trump wants to go back and I said and I did this but
Talk to me about this concept of these unknown unknowns because they're motivated by different things. Right, right
Well, you know and it comes it's like it's really the unknown unknowns or the overlap of the unknowns
Now what the hell am I talking about when I say that you're hiding cards?
Every negotiation I walk to the table I get stuff. I'm not telling you
every negotiation
Everything with me and my kid trying to get him to go to bed. Right, right, right there
There's stuff that you're thinking about that's valuable to you and same with him the kid everybody
Yeah, so I'm thinking that that the last thing I wanted to do is bang his head on the ground until it bleeds
So he's got a card on me
And then maybe he's thinking if dad could just let me watch the movie and go to bed
Then I'd be happy to go to bed. And so we both have these maybe unknown areas
I don't know if I've explained in that right
Where if we knew that we might be able to have power over one another or come to a better deal?
Well, you're always thinking about what's coming in the future - okay
Like you want your kid to go to bed because you want your kid to study
You want your kid to be healthy you want kid to maybe you want you kids to play sports?
Maybe you want maybe you have a vision for where your kids life is going
Your kids got another vision
But there's stuff in there that you there's an overlap but what you a kid like sports kids want kid wants to be happy kid
wants things
Maybe the kid wants things in his life that he's already thinking about his little kiddies
Imagine being an ass right? You know, who knows what's in their head?
But you want to know what's in their head because everybody's got something that they where they feel their life is going
You know, what's the future look like what I hopeful. What do I want to have fun doing?
Okay, so you play about future expectations from both parties, and I'm we work our word back
Okay, not necessarily the present kind of short term wins. You're talking about kind of the future
Yeah, why you want your kid to get a good night's sleep
Yeah, I guess it is because how it affects the rest of them how fixes we can't fix their schoolwork
How fix their life how it affects how they interact with the other kids how they socialize
I mean, you're always thinking about where's this going? What's this?
What's gonna happen? How does how is this how is my future being built? Whether it's you or your kid?
Okay, so knowing that when I go into a negotiation with anybody
How can I maximize that knowledge whether it's about me or the other person involved? I'm an Allen
I'm gonna I'm gonna try to tease out what's in your head about your future
Okay, you know and then I see I need to know
What you see in your head and where you see things are going
And I and I can't change that
until I know what it is and we and we've always got this we've got always got an overly negative view because
That's the way we're wired
We can't we can't help ourselves and Daniel Kahneman won't won the Nobel Peace Prize in behavioral economics for pointing this out to the world
That we're overly negative and how does that manifest it? So
Lost things twice as much as games if I take five dollars from you. It's gonna hurt twice as much as
If I give you five dollars
And seventy percent seventy percent of my decisions are made to avoid loss
But most businesses. I'm pitching your game. Here's how this is going to benefit you
Here's how you're gonna be better off. And your first thought is gonna be like, here's what I stand to lose
Hmm and so I go in through that side door and it's a much faster route
Because you'll do the deal with me as soon as I can as soon as you as soon as I get rid of the obstacles
What are you afraid of what do you what are you worried about losing?
We're talking to an energy company in Texas just a couple weeks ago
They're talking about and as crazy as it is, they're still discovering new oil fields in Texas one of the last big oil fields
They discovered there was in 2008. I would have thought they stopped discovering oil in, Texas
50 years ago, but 2008 they one of the biggest oil fields, they were found in Texas. What does that mean?
That means they're still buying land from Texas landowners
and this Texas landowners not selling this oil company their rights to his land and
They're following this guy around they're waiting for him in the gym. I mean, they're trying to show him
That they can be trusted
What does that mean? They're trying to overcome mistrust
but they're pitching him with how much money he's gonna make every step of the way which is what every other oil company pitches a
Guy and he they were just hung around long enough that finally he got the message that they weren't a fly-by-night operation
And then he could trust him and they cut the deal
But if now that they know taken my approach instead of taking six months to get past his mistrust
we can get him past that mistrust in a week how
By under by saying right off the bat. You know what?
We probably seem like everybody else that's pitching you these get-rich schemes
and from your position
We gotta be hard to trust because we look like everybody else
Because that's exactly what he's saying in his head. Right? And I didn't you articulate what's in the other guy's head
then all of a sudden they go like
Something about you I like I don't want it
And that's how we get in the side door, right?
I think you say if you if you try to call out a negative that's not there
You won't plant it which is I think you're saying there, but if you try to deny a negative
That's not there
Then you plant that the two millimeter shift and it's crazy because everybody's used to denying negatives
because that that old guy if we had taught him you might have said
You know what? I don't want us to look like everybody else
I don't I don't I don't want you to think that we're like every other
Salesperson right and that's when the guy goes you're denying it. You must be like them
Otherwise, you wouldn't deny it. They've got reaction is you deny what you're afraid of?
But when you say, you know, we probably look like everybody else
Then you then
Now suddenly, I look up accountable2you. I
Look honest. I look fearless to you. Hmm
What's the next statement after you say that?
We probably look like this big oil company that wants to come in and muscle you over and squeeze you out of a good deal
What's the next line after that? Well, then it's a it's a little bit of a dance at that point, right?
my next line is this I
Gotta shut up. I got to read you. I gotta let you react you're gonna tell me one or two things
Either I'm on the right track and you need to hear more
Of me defusing the negative or you're gonna relax a little bit, you know, like, you know
I don't know and then you're probably gonna say look here's what's important to me
Everybody else wants a 99-year lease
You know I get kids I get a worry at work or worry about it, right? You know, i-i've just
opened a trust that I'm moving my assets into
You're gonna tell me what you need to make the deal. Okay?
And at that point in time now
You're gonna know the next thing you're gonna do is
You're gonna watch me to see if I actually listen to you, right? Is there an article that I saw a few years ago?
That cheap market again in charge of marketing for Facebook said he hated dealing with people from Hollywood
Because they all sit down they say what's keeping you up at night and then don't listen to the answer, right?
So heated up perfectly the guy's about to share the unknown and they're busy not even listening. They don't even listen
They're thinking about their next move
Maybe yeah, or they're gonna they're gonna they're gonna pitch what they came to pitch no matter what he says, right?
Okay, interesting talk to me about silence and the use of silence
You just used it there on me
Right, but sometimes it's not the right thing to do because people they react differently to silence, right?
Well, yeah, we got to watch how we react to silence. There's some some relationship-oriented people
They signal anger by giving somebody the silent treatment
so they will misinterpret silence and
They will say silence. Yes sighs man. They're upset. I got to talk. Well, in fact the other side might be trying to think
So silence is a dynamic in order for it to be effective. Hence the time effective pause
you got to read the other side in the moment and
so I'll shut up and
you're gonna you're gonna give me massive amounts of information as
To how you're reacting. I'm gonna see a contemplative look on your face
you know, I'm gonna see a go on look on your face or
There's some people that are really good or holding their face, but can't hold their hands. Mm-hmm
And we see that highly analytical people will keep a complete stone face in
Your hands or their feet or start to move? Okay. What's the biggest tell for men?
Well tell is context. Okay, and that's why I need to talk to you long enough to know the
Context and and what am I talking about? They're there. What I'm really looking for is the way of polygraph works
Is this not trying to pick up your towels? It's trying to establish your baseline
What do you look like when you're telling the truth? You're gonna lie fifteen ways. You're gonna tell the truth one way
So my small talk is really designed to get your baseline on what you look like when you're telling the truth
What'd you have for breakfast today? You know, what was your commute like in today? You know, how many kids have you got?
the stuff that your turn they stuffed up the polygrapher ask you a bunch of baseline questions and
then any time you deviate from that if I you know, if I say look what's really important to you and you're like
Let me break an eye contact break an eye contact looking in a different direction
Chances are you've probably got at least four different ways that you signal discomfort lying is just a means of discomfort
Now if I get a tell out of you, the other thing I got to do is not go
But what I really got is that Association or let me know, you know makes everybody uncommon - makes everybody uncomfortable, okay, but I'll say
Seems like something's bothering
Me
But it's probably gonna be hands related
Moving feet or legs looking away. I mean there will be some basics, right?
Right, and then we were the construction company yesterday and one of their highly analytical guys
His - is his his signal is just that his eyebrows come up
Now when his eyebrows came up one of the other people in the training misinterpreted that that he was insulted
Because we were talking about his particular type in every action
And his eyebrows came up and the other type
said
What about that bothered you because he thought it was insulted
and
he just kind of went ah, you know, I don't know and then I came back and I said and I said
seems like you're uncomfortable and
He said, you know really I was just really thinking about this is somebody told me before this was one of my big issues
now there was two completely different responses there and I knew
Somebody asked him a question. He gave a very guarded answer
Now we need to gather information. I didn't ask him a question
I said
you know seems like that made you think about something it seems like that bothered you and
then BOOM floodgates of truth-telling are opened up by my
Observation because the question put him on guard where my observation of his reaction sort of bypassed the prefrontal cortex
Went in the side door again sudden
It's like wow what he wasn't insulted by
Was he found it intriguing?
because he got some coaching feedback that that was one of his issues and he was trying to fix it and
It had been called out in the conversation and instead of being offended by it
He was actually reacting very positively. So you also have to be concerned about what your interpretation of their tells are
They might be lying
They might be reacting really positively you got to pull out of them what's going on behind their head without
Automatically assuming that it meant he was uncomfortable and that was a negative thing. He actually really the observation, okay?
So yeah, you got it. You got to stay with people in a way that you don't go. Hah
Because then it drives them back are all negotiations really therapy
Yeah, if you're if you're great negotiator because the other side is gonna want to talk to you even more
They're gonna want to be honest with you. They're gonna want to tell you what their unknowns are
They're gonna want to tell you if I if you're gonna want to tell me what you're hiding
It's yeah, it's kind of gotta be a therapeutic experience right and you're not going to and just to be clear
I mean it's in everyone's interest
to kind of open up and show each other the cards or it's not like I'm gonna get you and then I'm gonna win but
It really I mean is it really in both parties interest if they can discover their each of their own knowns?
Yeah, because it is because it depends upon whether don't you take yourself hostage, but first of all the best deal possible
We both gotta show our cards
because we never know how those cards overlap and
We'll never get to the best deal we could possibly make
Unless we open up
Now maybe we'll make some acceptable deals. Maybe we'll make survivable deals
But without opening up we cannot maximize the opportunity and then that that requires trust
Let's talk about trust and like some of the I probably the big moment of your career
Well, you you put it on the line. Everyone was watching and that was the first bank robbery
So tell me about that situation tell me about bank robberies in general actually
you know in the book you kind of talk about the history of
Negotiations, but I think it's more
negotiations in a real-time audio medium right when we're talking about what happened in the 70s and I think that's really interesting because you know
Negotiations have been going on since the time of Genghis Khan
I'm guessing they would send someone in I even think in the Iliad like they're sending people into the gates and they
Negotiate but this whole concept of a real time on the phone negotiation is new and that's kind of what you specialized in
originally, so
I don't know
If you could tell me a little bit about that and then the situation you were in and what you learned on that bank
Robbery day, cuz that's pretty unique. Yeah, well bank robber in Brooklyn, you know six thousand years ago working
early
1900s 80s 70s
Banker I was in what was a bank robbery it was
It was in 93. Nobody's in 93. I was I was crazy. It was crazy stuff that happened that year
It was nuts in 93. Okay. Yeah
Yeah, that was crazy. Was that World Trade Center bombing? Yeah. Okay. Yeah
They rid the first one in the parking lot in the parking structure. So there's banks in Brooklyn
I didn't know that first of all, okay, there's trees in Brooklyn is banks at Brooke. Right, right
so first of all real quick on like
Hostage negotiation and those kinds of things that's a fairly new phenomenon, right?
Relatively speaking. Yeah hostage negotiation per se was invented
At about in about 1972 as a result that would trigger across a law enforcement world war the Munich Olympics
Okay with these is the Palestinians in the Israeli air, right? So 72 in Munich
As I remember, there's a great movie called one day and one day in September
Yeah, and so as I remember the Germans were kind of they didn't want to project a lot of force at that event
And they did want to look like a police state for the hangover from World War two, right?
so they're probably a world a bit lacks and then it was the Israeli wrestling team or something that got its really athletes a
Number of them were wrestlers, right? Okay and taken hostages and then on top of all that the Olympics was going on
There's news crews everywhere real-time video feeds. It's insane. They're insane. And so that's like one of the first times where there's this real-time
Multimedia kind of a negotiation process. Right? Right, right
and and and that's a phenomenal if you're in the terrorism and
great insight into the Palestinians also because they they interview the surviving Black September terrorists and he talked about
You know growing up in a refugee camp and feeling like a wretched refugee which man it was an identity issue
Which is what in what it is for everybody in every negotiation
how does this affect who I am as a human being and that's how these guys get into this because
He says I I grew up feeling like I was a wretch wretched refugee
And becoming a terrorist gave me an identity
And then you begin to understand that these guys get into that then then they get into the hostage-taking in there hadn't been
negotiations at the time and the Germans are trying not to use force and
It was just one train wreck after another and resulting in it. Just a horrific
horrific
incident that that
the German authorities
Almost pulled it off with a little bit of command and control they would have they would have pulled off the rescue at the airport
But their command and control fell apart and their did their discipline of their assaulters
They had they had some police officers that were waiting on one of the Jets that the Palestinians were supposed to board to leave Munich
And at the last minute the salt team on the jet took a vote to abandon their posts
I mean it's insane
They might have pulled it off if those guys hadn't abandoned their post knowing what you know now about both sides
How would you have negotiated that I mean again?
If you already know that information about these Palestinian guys, I mean that can be a very powerful unknown
Absolutely, and there also I think people forget and maybe you could talk about this too is that they're in a situation they didn't necessarily
Design, they sure as hell didn't emotionally prepare for what's happening
They let alone in the first minute let alone 30 minutes or days into it. I mean, this is all adrenaline
Madness, they're probably scared. Yep
Their result they they're reverting to be in humans in the midst of this
It's the interesting thing in a study of terrorism over the years
terrorist leaders big problem is
the cannon fodder they send into these are still human beings and it's still wired the same way everybody is and they still have the
emotional system that everybody has and
They know that as a human being you're gonna get scared. There's you can't override that system
It's gonna continue to function and that's exactly what happened to those guys
They thought they were gonna get out of there
and in fact
Some of them did you know one of them?
Hats off to the people that did that documentary because they tracked down and remaining
Remember Black September and put them on camera and interview. Oh, wow. How do you pull that off?
Because he's still a human brain
Right, and he still wants to talk about still once that everybody wants to talk if you're alive
You want to talk if you're in a business deal you want to talk?
You just got to understand how to unlock somebody from talking
Okay
And so knowing what you know now how would you have approached that?
negotiation if they would have if they woulda just had a little bit of command and control and
There there are some situations where you got call in a SWAT team
Right and at that point in time if somebody wants to leave and the Palestinians wanted to leave they wanted to escape
they're telling you loud and clear they want to live and
That gives you the edge
Mmm, and at that point of time we start talking to them about how their actions are gonna help them look or if they want
To live. The other thing they want to do is you want to be heroes?
Everybody wants to be a hero
Everybody wants to be immortal an athlete wants to be in a Hall of Fame what athletes want more than winning
Championships is to being a Hall of Fame
And you begin to understand what people want that makes them immortal
Then you can talk about whatever it is. That makes them immortal
Okay
And also from a law enforcement perspective
You can open up holes in their game open up gaps in the plan where they might agree to something
They wouldn't normally agree dude, that will give you a tactical advantage, right? Okay, interesting. So people she doesn't watch that movie they basically
Indicated they wanted to live wanted to get the airport and then it kind of all went wrong there
So it's grateful on the watch. Tell me about the bank robbery. And by the way, you're former SWAT guys. You kind of know that
That side of it which is probably makes you a different kind of negotiator than other people
No one is like on the ground. But what happened that day? What did you learn? What were you nervous?
And how did you get in that situation? Well, um, I wasn't nervous I mean but by that point of time
I've been doing the process enough that I was comfortable with the process
Like and you don't have been practicing
Well, I did practicing but my real life practicing had been I'd spent a lot of time on a suicide hotline
Which is real life emotions. Okay, and so I knew how powerful this stuff was walking in a suicide hotline
You got to talk somebody down off the ledge figuratively literally in 20 minutes or less Wow
And I remember when I first got there. I'm like 20 minutes
How's I gonna work, you know on TV they're on phone for hours
I said no
If you do this, right you you get you'll get you'll be done in 20 minutes or less and it was true
And that's why you know our analogy in business the application of this stuff saves time
I mean I had one of my students say this, you know tactical empathy saves time. So we get to the bank buy time
They hand me the phone. I'm like, I'm just gonna put my process on these guys. I mean, he's a late-night
FM DJ
boy
Any guys gonna calm down and he did you got a phone line to him all that would happen on the phone
Yeah, okay, and they have they went to rob it. They didn't plan on the situation three guys
We didn't know at the time there were three two and inside the getaway driver stayed on the outside
the ringleader plan on robbing the bank
He told the other guys they were gonna rob the cash machine
So they thought they're only gonna get as far as inside to rob the cash machine that the insane idea was this guy actually
Ran a cash courier route
So he knew where the cash machine was he knew how to get into it
He convinced these guys that since he had all this information they could get it
They could avoid the camera that took pictures. He could disable everything they could get in and out clean
They could take all this money. Nobody'd ever find him what he really wanted was a money in the vault
And he didn't tell anybody that till they got inside the bank and they pulled out a 357 started waving around took hostages
Everybody was surprised
Even a guy that followed him inside and and then so the back they tripped the bank alarm
Passerby sees what's going on side. The getaway driver on the outside was kind of like feet. Don't fail me now
He got out of there. Okay immediately we show up at the bank. We get the bank surrounded
The guy inside is actually the classic CEO negotiator
Classic see, you know, CEO negotiator pretends like he's powerless
Use nothing but plural pronouns
Example that would be said, you know, oh, they're all these other guys in here
I got all these other decision-makers, you know, I don't have any power that I'm this bank
Robber said, you know, I'm scared of the other guys
I'm gonna have to get off the phone cuz they're gonna catch me on the phone with you and then they get off the phone
He was completely in charge
I'm a business the most influential negotiator and the negotiation team on the other side if he comes to the table
He's gonna say, you know, we got all these people in my company then I'm accountable to you know
They're I don't I I'm only the spokesperson but you know
I've got a board. I gotta talk to I've got all I've got all these people who just completely constrained me
Okay, that's not Trump style, but that it's not Trump stuff. That's the guy who's his power
Okay, because he is powerful cuz he's got he's the last word if the decision-maker comes to the table
They're very cautious about how they come to the table
The analogy with Trump was although he looks like the decision-maker. Look how cautiously he approached Singapore once the deal was set
He cautiously said I'm gonna know what's inside the first minute whether or not this is a legitimate negotiation
I'm gonna know if this is going sideways he he had and then he had people signaling this form
He had all his people in what we call hardwired control
He knew the conversations that were going on in advance
he had all those people in advance saying if this goes sideways we are out of here the minute we smell it and
That's how he maintained control to keep stuff from getting backed into a corner. Hmm
And of course, what's he end up doing he goes, he makes all these pitches
He shows him a video movie which evidently appealed to the counterpart interesting, huh?
And then also that research get out of there as quickly as he could. Okay to leave the details to his guys
How long did he stay? I mean like headlines Trump's out early?
Yeah, you know he's letting people know that he's extremely worried about implementation and he got away from the table as quickly as he could
So that he couldn't get backed into the in the corner at the time
