KAREN MAY: It is my great
pleasure, this afternoon,
to introduce you
to George Mumford.
And George is here
joining us today
to talk about his book,
which you can see right here,
"The Mindful Athlete."
And some of you have a
copy of it in front of you.
And he's here to share some
of the wisdoms and lessons--
wisdom and lessons in his
book, but even more than that,
to share some of who
he is with all of you.
And one of the things
that I was really
struck by when
reading George's book
is what an extraordinary
life you've had
and the extent to which you've
been listening your whole life.
And it's that listening
that really struck me,
that you've been-- you
watched messages coming in.
Sometimes, you took
the message right away.
Other times, you let it
sit for a couple of years.
But when you were ready,
you went after it.
And you really paid attention
to what was around you,
took from teachings
from many, many people,
and then found a calling
around sharing those teachings
and helping other people listen
and learn for themselves.
And your story is extraordinary.
Your humility is just
as extraordinary.
And we're just so
lucky to have you
here today to share
some of your thoughts
with us, and experience.
Some of you will know George
by reputation for the work
that he's done with
professional basketball stars.
If you're a basketball player,
you know all of the names,
Kobe Bryant, LeBron
James, and so forth.
If you aren't, it doesn't
matter, big basketball stars.
But I think what's
interesting about the work
that you've done with
professional athletes is
that you have found
people who happened
to be at the top
of their profession
doing work that require
them to be entirely present.
And so they happen
to be in athletics.
I know you've done work with
people in many other walks
of life, people who
need to be the very best
that they can be, at
the top of their game,
and helping them find a way to
be that, but out along the way
finding extraordinary peace.
And so before I let George
do some of the talking,
I want to share-- I want to
read this to you because it's
so special,
something George just
shared with me,
which is his charter.
And George's
purpose for his life
is to release the divine spark
within every human being.
And when I think about that
in the context of the work
that you're doing, it really
is being there for people
and finding the way
to release that spark.
And some of the values
that shape his work
are love, curiosity, truth,
wisdom, selfless service,
integrity, courage,
and compassion.
And what an extraordinary
set of gifts
to bring to the
world around you!
So I'm Karen May.
I lead our People
Development team,
and it's my deep pleasure to
introduce George to you today.
And tell us a little bit
about yourself, your work,
your calling, and your book.
GEORGE MUMFORD: Thank you.
Well, I'm really happy to be
here today, being at Google.
Very often, I can't
use my computer
without referring to Google
in one way or the other.
KAREN MAY: We like that.
GEORGE MUMFORD: Yes.
So when I agreed to come
here and talk about my book,
I actually gave
them a little idea
of what it is I wanted
to talk about today.
So this is a reminder
to me as well.
The power of flow, the
role of mindfulness
in cultivating flow readiness.
So this idea-- the
interesting thing about flow.
How many people know what
the flow is or the zone?
OK, great.
So a lot of people know that.
And the interesting thing about
flow or the zone is that if you
try to get into flow, you won't.
So it's one of these paradoxes.
So I prefer to talk about
the role of mindfulness
and cultivating what I
would call flow readiness.
And so creating the
conditions so flow
will arise when it arises.
And so being in flow or
being in the zone, or flow,
is enhanced by the
regular practice
of being mindful in
all our activities
in such a way that
an emphasis is
put on the continuity
of mindfulness.
This requires an expanded view
of what mindfulness meditation
is in a sense that
sitting practice or being
still and knowing is just
one aspect of the practice.
It is possible for us to
be mindful from the time we
wake up until the
time we fall asleep.
Just being mindful of our
postures during the day
as we are sitting, walking,
standing, and lying down.
We contracted being fully
open, fully engaged,
and welcoming each unfolding,
unknown moment of mindfulness
and wisdom.
And I have to say that's a
mouthful, what I just said.
And the interesting
thing is-- so it
would be obvious to talk
about, what is mindfulness?
How many people here
know what mindfulness is?
How many people practice
mindfulness and don't
know what mindfulness is?
So it's an interesting thing.
My buddy, Jon Kabat-Zinn,
talked about mindfulness
is paying attention in a
particular way in the moment,
non-judgmentally, as if
your life depended on it.
Now, he doesn't use
that all the time,
but I like to use that
because it's really important.
But another way of
thinking about mindfulness
is that it's a way
of being where we're
able to observe experience.
And one of the things
I do in my book,
I talk about the space
between stimulus and response.
And Viktor Frankl has a quote.
I think-- Let me see
if I can find it.
I don't really need the quote.
I can just talk about it.
But basically, he's saying
between the space of stimulus
and responses are power
and freedom to choose.
And that-- another way of
looking at mindfulness--
I have some things
here that I want
to read because it
gives you an idea.
So when I talk
about mindfulness,
I'm also talking
about mindfulness
that's supported by some
qualities, which I call
in the book, the super powers.
And they have to do with this
idea of faith, or confidence,
because if you really
think about it, in order
to make an effort,
we have to have
enough faith, or confidence,
to actually make that effort.
And I know that trust or
confidence is really important
because Einstein said so.
Einstein basically said that
the most important question
we have to ask is whether
the universe is friendly
or unfriendly or neither.
And that just to cut
it short, because I--
instead of going
through all of them,
I'll just talk about
the idea that he said.
If the universe is
unfriendly, then we
will use all of our
resources, all our technology
to build bigger walls to
actually keep out the danger
or to actually get hostile
and kill off any threat.
And if we think the universe is
neither friendly or unfriendly
and that God is
just throwing-- it's
like throwing a pair of dice.
The role of the dice
determines whether the universe
is friendly or not, then
why bother with anything.
There's no consequences
to doing anything.
But if the universe is friendly
and that the way forward
is to use all our
resources, our technology,
to understand how the
world is, to understand
how the universe works,
and to align our intentions
and purposes with
the way things work,
then we're into something.
And so that's the place that
I'm coming from in that,
on a really basic
level, if we don't think
the universe is friendly,
then why would we
cultivate mindfulness?
Why would we pay attention?
Why would we try to figure
out how things work?
And so this idea of having this
faith-- and sometimes, it's
just a launching faith, just
enough faith to try something,
but on a deeper level,
it's understanding
that how we choose to
think, feel, and behave
has an impulse-- has an impact,
and that the universe is
lawful, and that
the best way to live
is to live in
alignment with that.
So having faith to
actually make the effort.
And so mindfulness is one thing.
But then there's this faith that
enhances us to make the effort,
and you have to make the
effort to be mindful.
And so we talk about effort.
And what I talk about in
the book is diligence.
And it's a way of looking
at effort or energy
as a continuous application of
enthusiastic, poised energy.
So oftentimes,
what I find working
with people in my own practice
for years, until I woke up
a little bit, is that there's
this efforting, or just trying
too hard or having this energy
that's really guided by greed
or wanting it badly
or trying too hard.
And that energy doesn't work.
And then there's the other
energy, this lethargic
or just not making any
effort at all because we
don't think it matters.
And so effort is similar
to like tuning a guitar.
If anyone plays a
string instrument,
when you tune a guitar, if it's
too tight, it doesn't work.
And if it's too loose,
it doesn't work.
It has to be
balanced just right.
And so when we make
an effort, the idea
is continuous application of
enthusiastic, poised energy.
Or the idea is when
you're doing something,
it's almost like there's a Hoagy
Carmichael line in his song.
It says slow motion
gets you there faster.
It's similar to that.
That effort is just
application no matter what.
You just keep
applying the effort.
It doesn't matter
what the results are.
It's walk straight
ahead no matter what.
So the interesting
thing about effort,
and the interesting thing
about not making wrong effort
is that it has to be
balanced by wisdom.
And one way of looking at wisdom
is information, intellect,
or rational thinking, which
we call wise reflection,
reflecting on things
using our intelligence,
and a third way is
what we call intuition,
or direct experience.
And so the idea is when we
experience it subjectively,
that's the deepest way
of knowing or intuition.
So information, intelligence,
and direct experience.
And so wisdom-- what mindfulness
does is it balances effort.
But effort is balanced by--
let me go back before that.
So the wisdom
balances the faith.
So going back to faith because
I talked about faith and effort.
But they have to be
balanced by mindfulness.
So mindfulness cultivates faith,
but it also cultivates wisdom
because if you have too much
faith and no discernment, then
it's blind faith.
And it's the same
thing with wisdom,
if your too wise
or too intelligent,
then you become cynical.
And so the idea of mindfulness
cultivates these things
individually.
Effort, trust, wisdom, it
cultivates those things,
but then it also balances them.
And so wisdom balances faith.
And then concentration--
or what I
like to use-- steadiness of
mind, is what balances effort.
When I talked about
a poised effort,
that's what
steadiness of mind is.
In order to have
steadiness of mind,
we can't be focused on what we
like and what we don't like it.
It has to be this idea
of just allowing things
to be as they are, that we're
not moving towards something
because it's pleasant, and we're
not moving away from something
because it's unpleasant.
We're just being still.
And so steadiness of
mind is really important.
And so mindfulness has-- the
only way mindfulness works
or what I call the
power of mindfulness
is when these other factors,
like effort and steadiness
of mind, of faith and
wisdom, are working together
and balancing each other.
And so we can make the
effort to be mindful.
And so what is mindfulness?
So when we allow each
moment to unfold as it is,
there has to be this ability
to have mindfulness, which
is supported by right effort and
steadiness of mind and wisdom.
It has to be
working with wisdom.
In other words, we have to
have an idea, well, what are we
doing?
What are we being mindful for?
And so Socrates said
wisdom begins in wonder.
So there's this guy, his name
is Eugene-- what's his name?
Eugene Fink.
He says, "wonder is the
unwilled willingness
to meet what is utterly strange
and what is most familiar.
It is the willingness
to step back and let
things speak to us.
A passive receptivity to
let the things of the world
present themselves
in their own terms."
And so our normal way of
observing experience is data,
or something comes up.
Whether it's a
thought or a sound
or an image or a
sensation, it comes up.
And instead of just
receiving it as it is,
there's a very short time
in the perceptual process
where we're seeing it as it is.
We're letting it speak to us.
But then, immediately,
there is self-reference.
There's associative thinking.
There's abstract thinking.
And so we end up
embellishing the raw data
with our views of things.
And so what mindfulness
does-- and one of the things
I talk about in the book a lot
is that, what we want to do
is we want to create space
between stimulus and response
so that we can actually
allow the receptive
phase of perception to
be elongated or longer.
And so these practices of
mindfulness and concentration
and right effort,
these things help
us to create space between
stimulus and response.
So Viktor Frankl said in
that space we can create.
We can actually stop, slow
down, and see what's happening.
Let things speak to us
instead of embellishing them
with what we think because
a lot of the time--
even you listening to
me now, I guarantee you
one of the things
we do is we listen
to what is being offered,
and we compare it
to what we already know.
So that's interesting,
but we haven't
had an experience of
everything, so we're not
really present to what is
and letting it speak to us.
Well, why is that so?
Because it takes a certain
level of vulnerability
to allow things to speak
for themselves without us
knowing what the answer
is before, especially
in this culture.
We multitask, which is a myth.
No such thing as multitasking.
But we do it.
We think we're doing it.
The mind is just flitting
from one thing to the other,
but ultimately,
the mind can only
be with one thing at a time.
And a part of this
cultivation of mindfulness,
or being flow ready, is
the idea of allowing things
to speak to us.
And then in that speaking
and in that space,
we're able to discern
and make proper choices
and part of that process is
to make mistakes because we
don't know what we don't know.
But by learning and being
able to observe experience
in a certain way, we're able
to learn from our mistakes.
And then when we
go into it again,
we get a little bit
more information.
We start stitching
intelligence together.
The way I like to
frame it, it's just
like when you do a
crossword puzzle-- or not
a crossword-- a jigsaw puzzle,
that when you do a jigsaw
puzzle, you put one piece.
You try pieces.
And you put them aside, and
then you're going along,
and you say, oh, I need a piece.
I saw that piece.
You go get the piece,
and you put it together.
And then as you keep building
on it, each time you go around,
it's circular learning.
The time you go through it,
through trial and error,
you get a full picture
of what is there.
And then you get another puzzle.
And then you start over again.
So this is how we learn.
We don't just see things or
know things ahead of time.
A lot of it is just blue
collar trial and error.
And then the
mindfulness helps us
remember what's happening so
that we can actually learn.
So it's all about-- it's
a commitment to learning.
Learning for learning's sake.
And doing things for
the sake of the thing.
Because when we do
it for gaining idea,
then we get greed, and
then the wrong effort
is applied because
we're trying too hard
or we're trying
with an ulterior--
with a motive that is
coloring what's happening.
Does that make any
sense, what I'm saying?
And so this idea of
mindfulness and being
in flow-- being flow ready,
is just learning and being
in the moment and let
each moment unfold.
And what happens is we
start to get into the way
things are, and we're
flowing with it.
The next thing you
know, we're actually
seeing how things are evolving
before they evolve because we
developed this sixth sense.
But I also talk about
this idea of observing
from the eye of the hurricane
because by observing
from the eye of the
hurricane, there's
this-- in the eye of the
hurricane, there's blue skies.
There's all this turmoil
that's going around.
But when we can
be in that middle,
we can observe things
without reacting to them.
So mindfulness is
supported by these things.
And one way of looking at
mindfulness or what mindfulness
might look like or the
flavor of mindfulness
would be this idea
of not forgetting.
So everything-- we can
only live in the moment.
So everything that's happening
in this moment is all there is.
And so our ability to not
forget-- not forget what?
What we're doing.
So it's like even being here.
Well, why am I here?
I am here to listen and learn,
so got to remember that.
And when do you do that?
In the moment, so we got
to remember the moment,
remember what our intention--
what it is we're doing.
So that's one part of it.
And that's where the
steadiness of mind comes in,
whee we're not forgetting.
And then there's
presence of mind.
Well, what's presence of mind.
The mind being in
the here and now.
It's like mirror mind.
The mirror just reflects
what's in front of it.
And so that's where this ability
to be still and know or just
see how by being in this
eye of the hurricane
with this relax
receptivity, there
could be an-- there
could be some enthusiasm
or-- I want to say a joy of
learning or loving to learn
or learning for learning's sake.
So we're sitting here and
saying, well, what is this?
We have this curiosity.
We have this interest.
We want to investigate.
We want to see things.
So that we're
letting things speak
to us in their own
language, in their own time.
Because a lot of us
have time pressure,
so we need this to move along.
We can't wait for it to unfold.
But that's the only
way we're going to know
is to have that ability to
wait and let it speak to us.
So an example I
love to use is when
we have-- we're in conversation
with each other all the time.
And so what is it like when
we're talking to somebody,
and they're not there?
They're trying to formulate
the answer before they even
hear the question.
I think we're all guilty
of that on some level.
So in that case, it's like
this being there an saying, OK,
I wish he would hurry up.
I got things to do.
But just realizing that
that's not being present,
that mindfulness just sits
there and just listens
and lets the whole
thing be communicated,
or speak for itself, and
then there's this ability
to ascertain-- or to
come from that space
where we can have some
wisdom and say, OK, I
heard what is being said.
And then trusting that if
we listen and we're present,
we're being still and knowing,
there's a wisdom that's there.
There's an ability to be there.
So not forgetting the present
moment and what it is we're
doing, so the steadiness
of mind-- presence of mind,
being in the
moment, mirror mind,
just letting things
speak for themselves.
And then there's this
idea of remembering.
Remembering what?
Remembering what is skillful,
what is helpful, what is not.
So if I remember, OK, I
got to be here and listen
without trying to answer.
And that I know when my
mind has compassion there,
there's a willingness to listen.
When I have patience
there, there's
a willingness to listen.
When there's impatient
or if there's
some other negative emotion,
like indifference, I'm
not really going to be there.
And I need to know.
This is the right effort.
I need to know how to abandon
that negative mindset,
like indifference.
How do I know?
Oh, there's indifference
in the mind.
Can I just let it
go, and then bring
this quality of
care and attention
to what is being said?
And so it's this idea
of knowing what's
skillful, what's unskillful.
That's the right effort.
And so then, finally,
it's also what's
the essence of what's happening?
So what's the essentials?
Well, the essentials
in a conversation
are 70% listening
and 30% speaking.
So the essential
is to listen, just
to know that, OK, if I'm
speaking before they're
speaking, then I
don't know-- I don't
have the right information that
tells me what I need to know.
What are the essentials?
The essential is to be
still and know to be present
and to just listen.
Each time the mind is thinking
about something else, just come
back and listening again.
And so mindfulness
looks like that.
Mindfulness looks like-- you
know when you come someplace
or when you're doing your
activity, the basic fundamental
of what it is your doing, that's
in mind-- with the mindfulness.
Well, you got to know a little
bit, at least what I'm doing
and why.
So there has to be
this understanding.
So there's some
mental preparation
before to figure out what
it is we're doing and why.
And we talk about this.
So there's mindfulness, or
just the bare sensational
mindfulness.
just knowing.
Say, for instance, if you're
sitting in your breathing,
and then there's a--
let's say there's
some sensation in your knee,
especially if you're sitting
and you have-- and
there's pain in the knee.
I wouldn't even call it pain.
I say there's a sensation.
So instead of calling it
pain, you just notice,
OK, this is a bare sensation, so
just noticing a bare sensation.
Or if a sound comes in through
the window or through the door,
let's say.
Where I practice in Cambridge
is right on the Main Street,
so you'll be sitting
there meditating,
and a fire engine goes by.
And so our ability to be mindful
and notice that we're sitting
and a sound comes
through the window.
The sound comes
into our awareness.
Well, we could allow
it to be a sound.
Or, we could make it noise.
I say, Oh, that's a fire engine.
It shouldn't be there.
I'm trying to meditate.
And so we just notice,
oh, we hear it.
But then if we see that
we made it into noise,
then we can just say, OK.
There's frustration.
There's-- I don't know
what you want to call it--
anger or fear that we're not
going to be able to meditate
because there's
sounds coming in.
If we can just know, oh,
there's fear in the mind
or there's anger
or just noticing,
oh, it's just a sound.
It's just a sound.
Just see it as a sound.
So something happens.
A sound-- then we interpret
what it means and what it is.
And that's where we suffer.
We suffer because
we make it noise.
And this ability to just
notice and just let it
flow through because
the interesting thing
is it won't last
more than 30 seconds.
But if we keep it mind
and we hold onto it,
it's still in the mind.
The fire engine is still there.
And so we start to
understand that there's
a way of relating
to experience, out
of that eye of the hurricane,
where we just allowing things
to come because they
arise and pass away.
Under the right conditions,
there's a sound.
It comes through.
And that's only the external.
Just imagine what's going
on inside with the self-talk
and our opinions
about everything.
When we start to sit
still and notice,
we have an opinion
about everything.
And there's no shame.
We'll say any-- we'll
think about anything.
But then we see it
and say, Oh, I can't.
I'm a meditator.
I can't have thoughts like that.
I shouldn't be thinking at all.
Well, good luck with
that one because there's
all kinds of thoughts
that are coming up.
There's all kinds of sensations.
What matters is our ability
to just notice that thinking
is happening.
That sound is happening.
That sensations are happening.
So there's a way of relating
to experience in a way
where we can just be
still and know and just
let things speak to us.
We create space between
stimulus and response.
And when there's no space
between stimulus and response,
that's not a problem
if we just notice,
OK, my mindfulness
wasn't quick enough.
And then you start over again.
And so this idea of
cultivating this way of being.
So you can do this from
the time we wake up
to the time we go to sleep.
So there's the
sitting meditation
and being still and focusing.
But then there's this idea, like
even now, just think about it.
Humor me for a moment.
You know you were sitting.
Do you really know
you're sitting right now?
Are you conscious of sitting?
So most people
say, yeah, George.
Of course, I know I'm sitting.
Well, how does it feel?
How can you prove that out?
What are the parts
of the body that
are making contact
with surfaces,
and what does it feel like?
Is it pressure?
Can we be still?
Can we just sit here and
listen and then allow our body
to be embodied and have our
body anchor us in the present
and notice that there's
breathing going on
or should be?
And that we can just sit
here and just notice.
Your breath comes, breath goes.
You just breathe in
sitting, feeling.
So when we stand up, you're
aware of standing up.
You walked here from somewhere.
Can you remember what happened
between where you were
and how you got here?
And some of us will
remember, some of us may not
because we were trying
to get here in a hurry.
We don't want to miss anything.
And so the body moving.
We're in the body
as it's moving.
Do we know when
we move our hand?
When we do things?
These are postures,
mindfulness of postures.
Just knowing we're sitting
down, and knowing it.
Standing up, and knowing it.
Listening, and knowing it.
That sounds simple, right?
How often do we do it?
Well, we're busy trying
to hear what's happening
and not being
anchored in the body
and noticing that there's a
way of relating all day where
we can just check in.
Well, is there
energy in the body?
How does it feel
when I'm listening?
Is it pleasant?
Is it unpleasant?
Is it neutral?
What's my attitude?
Am I happy to be here,
or I'm just here,
and I don't know how I feel?
That's OK.
But knowing that is
really important.
It's knowing what
our attitude, knowing
how we're seeing things.
So there's so many
things we could do.
And I don't want
to talk a lot more.
I just wanted to just introduce
some of these concepts,
like this idea of mindfulness,
just not forgetting, presence
of mind, and remembering
what is skillful,
and then staying
focused on that.
And then what are
the essentials?
What is it we're doing?
What are the basic fundamentals?
I do this with-- whether
we're speaking or hearing
or whether we're doing our job
or if you're playing basketball
or softball or even walking.
Just being with ourselves
as we're walking,
moving through space, and we'll
notice that the body can't
stay in one position too long.
It's in either one
of four positions.
It's either walking, standing,
sitting, or lying down.
And then all through the day,
we have those transitions.
Are we aware of them
when we do them?
Do we know why the
body is walking?
Do we know where it's going?
Do we know what the
purpose is to lie down?
How many of us lie
down at night and try
to go to sleep, and everything
we did during a day,
all our worries are there?
And we start
ruminating, thinking
and then, OK, it's
been two hours.
I'm still trying to asleep.
Instead of realizing
that, yeah, OK,
we have to have a way
of letting go of work
and letting go-- when
something keeps coming up,
either we need to
attend to it or we need
to figure out how to let it go.
But this happens, so we have
this-- what's that saying,
that most of us live in
quiet lives of desperation?
I think a lot us,
especially people
in this room, that have been
very successful and skillful.
There's a lot to be happy for,
but there's always suffering
in one form or the other.
That's a human condition.
Suffering is things change.
They don't stay the same.
We get connected with
things we don't like.
We get removed from
things we do like.
We could have a certain mindset.
It's going to change.
It's not going to be the same.
So things change all the time.
There might be subtle things
or parts of our lives--
like Sigmund Freud said,
love, work, and play.
If you've got all three of
those working, you're doing OK.
If you can work, love,
and play at a high level,
that's what he calls
psychological health.
Well, good luck with that
one because very rarely,
do we have all three
going on really well.
And it doesn't stay that
way because we got parents
that are getting old and sick.
We're getting old.
Things change.
We don't have the same level
of energy we had before.
Then, there's just
things that happen.
People we know die and get sick.
Or, the candidate we
like doesn't get elected.
Or, he does get
elected and doesn't
do what we want him to do.
There's all of these
things that happen
that have an impact on us.
And so really it's
about just starting
to get in touch with
what's going on in here,
what's going on in our
heart, and then starting
on the state of,
well how am I living?
Who do I want to be?
Because I like to say, if
you don't know who you are,
you can be anybody.
And if you don't know
where you're going,
you could end up anywhere.
So these are just
some of the things
that, I'd like to open up
the conversation about.
It's just talking
about-- obviously,
we can talk about anything.
But just this idea
of flow having to do.
Because flow is when--
when we're in flow,
it's interesting because our
self-consciousness is gone.
You hear people all the time.
Well, I don't know where I went.
I wasn't there.
I got expanded awareness,
and time-- everything
was effortless and was
doing it by itself.
Time flies.
I don't know where
the time went.
Your sense of time was altered.
But the interesting
thing is, to be in flow,
we have to have--
be in a high state
of arousal, which means that our
challenges and our skill level
has to be high.
An elite athlete
or a mindful person
knows when that high state
of arousal, that excitation
could be because we're very
excited because something
good's going to
happen or we could
be very excited because
something bad is
going to happen.
And our relationship to it, if
we see it as a crisis or as a--
not as a crisis, but
as a curse, then we're
probably going to reduce our
energy or lower our standard.
So just before we get
to that flow state,
we quit or we withdraw.
But if we see it
as an indication
that we're really close to
getting where we want to go,
and we see it as a
challenge, then we
bring more energy,
more focus into it.
We persevere.
We consistently continue
to make the effort,
then we get into flow.
But even that's a problem
because it won't last.
But while we're in
it, we could be in it.
And then when we get out of
it, we say, that was great.
I'd like to do that again
because, all of a sudden,
I disappeared.
Where did I go?
What happened to time?
You mean it was two hours.
It didn't feel like that.
And so this is the excitement.
The mystery of life is that
we can get into things,
and we can just take
it one moment at a time
and just really
manage the moment
that we might find
ourselves getting into,
like the stream or
the flow of a river,
we end up getting into
the current of it.
And we flow with it,
and it's taking us
where we want to go
without any effort.
But if we try to do it
consciously, it's a problem.
But if we just do these
things as a byproduct
of paying attention, a
byproduct of understanding
how to be mindful moment to
moment-- because the secret
is continuity of
mindfulness, not
being mindful for two or
three hours while we're
sitting or doing what we love
to do and we really focus on it.
It's being present for
our life more and more,
bringing more and more
of that continuity.
And sometimes, just knowing that
there's a body just a continued
mindfulness is fine.
You don't have to have
a whole lot of-- can
be a rough just, OK,
my body, I feel it.
There's a body there.
It's moving and sitting.
It doesn't have to be
where there's a body,
and it's doing such and such.
Just to the extent that we know
we have a body can be enough.
OK, yes?
AUDIENCE: Hi, George.
Thank you so much.
As you're talking,
I'm just getting
more and more excited
about asking my questions.
And I have quite a few.
And so I'm just
going to ask one,
and then I'll go from there.
But as you're talking
about flow and body--
when I see that I
haven't read your book,
but I know who you are.
I mean I read a
little bit about you.
So I know you worked with
Phil Jackson and the Bulls.
And that was a time where
I used to watch basketball
all the time.
So the fact that you're
talking about this,
and you worked with them, and
they won so many championships,
I would love for you describe
how you worked with them
as a team and as individuals.
And how they-- when you're
saying you get into the flow,
and then you accomplish your
goal, and then you lose it.
How did they get into a position
where, just about every time
they went out on the court, they
were in the flow for so long?
GEORGE MUMFORD: Yes.
Well, it's interesting because
somebody asked me recently
because I'm working with
the New York Knicks.
And, of course, they had an
interesting season last year.
And people said Georgia,
it must be really hard,
you working with them.
You know they've
not this and that.
And I said, no, my job is
the same no matter what.
It's just to help them
to be more present
and help them to try to manage
the moment in a skillful way.
So when I was working with the
Bulls and having Michael there,
it was very interesting
because there
was a commitment to excellence.
And there was a--
they were always
raising their challenges.
So you can even-- if you
were to listen to Michael,
you'd hear him say, OK,
he won three championships
before I even got there.
Then, they won in '96.
Then, in '98, you can
hear him say-- '97,
you can hear him say, well,
that's one win for Coach
[INAUDIBLE] because
we had a new coach.
So he would always find a
reason or another worthy cause
of what to commit to so
that we could continue
to be motivated and keep
pushing ourselves out
of our combat zone.
So the way you do
that, whether you're
in last place or first place,
is wherever you are today
is not where you
want to be tomorrow.
So there's just constant
getting comfortable,
being uncomfortable, pushing
out of our comfort zone
so that you're in a
high state of arousal.
So a lot of us-- I
tend to say that we
spend most of our time
in boredom or anxiety.
So we're bored when we have
high skills, but low challenges.
So we're chilling.
We are in that relaxed.
We're content.
And then there's others who have
low skills and high challenges,
and they're anxious.
They're just-- and
so the idea is--
the middle way is when you're
anxious because the challenges
are too high, then
you've got to get busy
improving your skills,
knowledge, and experience.
So then you're always moving.
So there's no standing still.
You're always trying to be
a little bit better today
than you were yesterday.
And the important thing
is, working with them,
is to talk to them
about competing
against their previous best
self, not the other team.
Because on a given
night, you might play
a team that's better or worse.
And you might beat them or
win, but you haven't really
gotten better that night.
You haven't really
competed at a level that
is going to push you
out of your comfort zone
and expand your
capacity to perform.
And the same for us,
not just athletes.
Even in our work, to
the degree that we're
able to just look and
evaluate, well, where am I?
Where do I want to go,
and how do I keep pushing?
And it's incrementally,
and it's painless
because it doesn't have to be
so far ahead the we're damaging
ourselves, just a
little bit at a time,
like slow motion gets
you there quicker.
Just incrementally, and then
it has an exponential jump
when we can do that.
So that was the
idea, having people
who are willing and
committed to excellence,
and willing to say, OK, let's
keep raising our challenges.
And let's keep getting
better each day.
Let's put in the work.
Let's use the mindfulness
and stay committed to what
the basic fundamentals are.
And then you have
a system that's
predicated on all five
players moving like fingers
on a hand in unison.
So the we takes
precedence over the me.
And it's a blending.
It's a commitment.
One of the things Phil
used to say all the time--
or he still says this,
the strength of the pack
is in the wolf, and the strength
of the wolf is in a pack.
So we need both the
wolf and the pack
or both individual
players and the team.
So as good as
Michael was, as good
as Scottie was, as
good as Dennis was,
they had to work together.
And they had find a
way of being in the we.
But in the same time,
in that context,
could they be their unique,
authentic selves in that space.
AUDIENCE: Hi, George.
I really admire the topic
of mindfulness for athletes,
and I'm curious to hear it a
little bit more about this.
For example, I'm a
want to be triathlete.
And you know to run triathlons,
you have to push yourself.
You have to run harder in order
to be able to perform faster.
And there is a lot
of pain in the way,
especially to run fast.
There is a moment like
a lot of points of pain.
So I'm wondering, can
you use mindfulness
in order to overcome those.
So as you're in a
training session
or maybe can you use
mindfulness in order
to get more motivated
to exercise?
And I would appreciate
some practical tips
on how to approach the athletics
discipline with mindfulness.
GEORGE MUMFORD: Mhm.
Yes.
Well, let's think
about mindfulness.
What mindfulness can do
with those other factors,
with wisdom and making
the right effort
and having enough faith and
steadiness of mind, is really
looking at, so what
am I doing, and what's
the best way to to do it?
It's what we would call
clear comprehension, which
is what your purpose?
What your intention because your
intention is really important.
If your attention
is just to do this
because it's a good thing to
do, that's a certain energy.
If your intention is
to do this because you
want to see-- you
love competing,
and you love this context
of swimming, riding a bike,
and running, so then
you have to investigate.
Explore, well, who's
the best at doing this?
Who's the best swimmer
in the triathlete?
Who's the best runner?
Who's the best cyclist?
And then you try
to learn and try
to understand what are
the basic techniques
for each one of those things.
And then your own personal
evaluation or inventory
of yourself.
What do I do well?
What do I not do well?
So let's say, if
you're really good--
what are you really good at?
What's your best--
AUDIENCE: The running.
GEORGE MUMFORD: The running.
OK.
So then the idea is you
want to sustain the running.
But if you're really
weak at swimming
and really weak at cycling,
then maybe your strategy
needs to be-- this is what
we call strategic planning,
or forethought.
It has to do with
motivation, but also
your strategy, your technique,
your tactics that you're
going to use.
And so when we set
goals, the goals
can be a combination of
outcome and technique.
So you have to work
on the technique that
will help you get faster times
and help you develop a place
where your effortless.
But if you try to do all
three of those things
with equal attention
and care, that
might not be the
best use your time.
It maybe that whatever you do
really well, you sustain that.
And then maybe one
of the other two,
instead of trying to do both
of those, you just focus on one
and get that one up to speed,
or get that one faster.
And then just realize, OK,
that one, I'm not so good in,
so my time is not
going to be good.
But I'm going to focus
on what I can control
and what I can get better at
because what you don't want
to do, sometimes, is do
something you're really
not good at and spend all your
time just to be mediocre rather
than realizing just do it to a
certain level to the best you
can, but then focus on the areas
where you can get gain time
or you can reduce time.
You get what I'm saying?
And so it's more like that.
So there has to be some wisdom,
some understanding on what's
the best way for me to
improve my performance.
And whatever-- and instead
of trying to perform it--
do it all at once, you
start selectively selecting
what things you want to bring
more deliberate practice to
and really focus on getting
better at so that even
though you have less-- more
time in one of those three
components, the other
two can carry that one.
So it's like they have a thing
they called Pareto Analysis.
I used to work in corporate
world as a financial analyst.
And Pareto Analysis says
that if you have five things,
instead of working on all
five, you take two of them--
or you take one of them.
That one thing, that 20%, will
give you 80% of the benefit.
So you start to deliberately
understand, well,
which one is going to enhance
my improvement the most--
my performance the most.
Then, you focus on that.
Make sense?
AUDIENCE: Oh, yeah.
Yes.
GEORGE MUMFORD: OK.
And obviously, not that
I'm trying to sell,
but my book is a good
start for this stuff.
Actually, because you stop
looking at-- because there's
the five spiritual
powers, so you
have to have energy to do
whatever you're going to do.
And these balancing
of those powers
actually helps you have
access to energy and power
to do things, especially
the space between stimulus
and response because when
you stop paying attention,
you'll start to know.
Because when I-- I used to
run before my legs gave out.
And I used to get
a stitch running.
And then when I became
mindful, I just--
instead of calling it a
stitch, I could just be with it
and allow it to be there.
And I was able to run
longer and just allow
it to just be a sensation.
Just allow it to
be there and just
continue to-- because the
more you try not to have it,
the more you have it.
You get what I'm saying?
So the mindfulness
can be really helpful
because the body has
intelligence, if we can just
listen to what it's telling us.
So sometimes, when
it tells us to rest,
we have to get recovery.
Sometimes, it tells us we can
push it a little bit long--
more.
But you've got to listen, and
you've got to know your body
and what you need to do.
AUDIENCE: So you mentioned
something about knowing million
who you are and where you
are and what you want to do.
So do you believe everyone
needs a life purpose and also
a life mission to achieve?
Do you think that's the
whole point of being present,
being mindful?
GEORGE MUMFORD: Yeah, is the
purpose just to be who you are?
Maybe I'll answer it this way.
One way I look at
this is that we all
have a masterpiece
inside, and we all
have a uniqueness
that is special.
And that if we can cultivate
that, embrace it, develop it,
and share it with others, that
that would be really, really
helpful.
But I do know this.
If we don't know who we are,
we will end up being anybody.
And if we don't know
where we're going,
we'll end up going anywhere.
So the idea is that
we have the ability
to decide what our core values
are or how we want to live.
And even if we don't know who we
are, if we just live according
to core values, like just
being more loving, more
compassionate, being present
for yourself and others,
that you start to glean.
And then when you listen, there
will be something inside of you
that starts speaking
to you from your heart,
telling you, OK,
I like to do this.
Like Joseph Campbell
said, follow your bliss.
Where's your bliss?
But the problem with
that sometimes--
or the difficulty
with that sometimes
is if we really look at where
we are and who we want to be,
we might not be in
the place we're at
and we may not do with
the people we're with.
So there's a loss there or
there's a having to let go, was
can be painful.
But it's my experience,
with myself,
I had to be in the
throes of substance abuse
before I got to a
point where I said OK.
This is not working.
Maybe I ought to look and see
who I'm supposed to be and just
connect with that, follow my
bliss, and just be the best
George I can based on
the inside out approach.
Not what somebody
thinks I should be
or what society says I should
be, but really looking inside
and then following my bliss
or following the thing that
wants me-- that draws me to it.
It's heartfelt. As a
path with heart is,
as Jack Kornfield would say.
Just following what is it.
And sometimes, it's being
still and knowing and asking
that question.
Who am I?
Or, who do I want to be?
Or, who do I admire?
What are the qualities
that I admire in people
and that I would
like to emulate?
AUDIENCE: So I'm experiencing, I
think, what might be a paradox,
and I'm struggling with it.
I'd love to hear how you
communicate maybe specifically
to athletes for an analogy.
I find that the more I cultivate
a mindfulness and meditation
practice in my own
life, the better I'm
getting with productivity,
focus, compassion.
So it's becoming harder
and harder for me
during those practices
to be still and present
and really in the
moment because I
realize the benefit from them.
So I found myself
wanting to cultivate
those practices for this
outcome that I'm wedded to,
which is paradoxical because
I want to be in this moment
not thinking about
what's to come.
But the more I do it, the more
I get better at these things,
and so it's making it
harder to be in the moment.
Does this make any sense?
GEORGE MUMFORD: Yes, so
what you're saying is
you can't be in the moment
and think about the future
at the same time?
AUDIENCE: Something like that.
GEORGE MUMFORD:
Yeah, but who said
you had to be in the
moment all the time
and never think
about the future.
It's a good one, huh?
AUDIENCE: Yeah.
GEORGE MUMFORD: See because the
fact is what I think is helpful
is forming the
intention or saying
this is-- there's the mountain
top, and I want to go there.
So every once and a while
I look at the mountain top.
But the main thing is
to be on the journey
and be present to the journey
because the journey could
have twists and turns.
Or, we could get off
track, but the mindfulness
will bring us back on track.
And so this either/or
or saying I've
got to totally always be present
and not think about the future
or not have an idea
where I want to go,
that is a way of looking at.
That's not the only
way to look at it.
I think that it's important
that you have goals.
It's important that
you are striving.
But after you set the
intention, form the intention,
and set the goal,
then you've got
to focus on the here and now
and the incremental steps
to get you there.
So you've got to keep looking.
Am I going in the
right direction?
Is this where I need to be?
Because you can get off track.
And so I don't see it
as a paradox at all.
Unless, you start
using the present time
to think about the future more
than being in the present time
as you are experiencing
the present time.
So you got to find
a balance there,
and each person's
going to be different.
But, sometimes, just
thinking about your goal
can be inspiring and motivating.
But then where it
gets to be a problem,
sometimes, is you have an
idea of how it should unfold,
instead of just
forming the intention
and allowing it to unfold
the way it needs to.
AUDIENCE: Hi, George.
Thank you for sharing
your insight with us.
When I run, especially
longer runs,
I find it easier, a lot easier,
if I let my mind tune out
and just drift away
and wander around
as opposed to being
mindful of running.
So my time goes faster when
I'm not thinking of running.
This is like the total
opposite you're advising us.
I'm wondering if I
misunderstood what you're saying
or if this is--
GEORGE MUMFORD: Yeah.
So are you enjoying
what you're doing?
AUDIENCE: Yes, I do a lot.
GEORGE MUMFORD: Are you
aware of what you're doing?
You're aware that
your mind is just
out there, not focused on
anything in particular?
AUDIENCE: Yeah.
And sometimes, I
purposely take it there.
GEORGE MUMFORD: OK.
Yeah.
But it would be
interesting to see
because I don't see anything
wrong what you're doing.
Unless, you're taking
it there because you
don't want to be in your
body because there's
something in there you
don't want to deal with.
Because one of the things we
do-- the nervous system is
programmed to do is
if it's pleasant,
it will move towards it.
If it's unpleasant, it
will move away from it.
And if it doesn't have
a goal or a focus,
then it will space out.
It's Neither pleasant
nor unpleasant.
And I say we spend most
of our time in that one.
That you just space out, whether
we're watching TV or running
and just letting
our mind just go.
And I'm not saying anything
is wrong with that,
just knowing that you're
doing that is important.
Just knowing where
your mind is, even
if it gets lost for 20
minutes and it comes back,
when you're back, you're back.
AUDIENCE: Right.
It usually goes out for a few
minutes comes back and then
goes out again, comes back and--
especially when you're running
two, three hours.
GEORGE MUMFORD: Yeah.
Well, I think everybody's
mind is like that.
That whatever we're
doing, we're not able--
because we would be enlightened
if we could be present
and we didn't have any issues.
We'd be enlightened.
But the mind has
a mind of its own.
It goes.
It does things.
And it's when it's going off and
doing that when we're-- I say
you're doing carpentry at home,
and you've got the electric saw
going, I think your mind
wants to be present--
or when you're driving or
when you're doing things,
there's a time.
Like the carpenter says,
measure twice, cut once.
There's a reason why
they say measure twice.
Because the first
time, you may not
have been paying attention
because the mind has
a mind of its own.
It is always going off.
So I'm not suggesting
when your mindful means
your mind is always there.
I'm saying when
you're mindful, you're
mindful when your
mind is not there.
You're mindful when
you do space out.
Now, it's not a problem unless
you make it a problem and say,
it shouldn't be doing that.
Well, it's doing it
because that's what
it does under those conditions.
So if you don't like
that, then you've
got to change the conditions.
But if you're OK
with it, it's fine.
But I'm not-- it's not to
use the mindfulness to say
mindfulness means you're
there and you're not
thinking about anything else.
No mindfulness is a-- it
could be a broad mindfulness.
It could be really narrow when
you're focusing on one thing,
but most of the
time, being broad
is good because it shows you
how things are connected.
And you see the whole
periphery of all the activity
and the interconnectedness
of everything.
So it is a question of what
do you mean by mindfulness
and why are you running.
It's always your intention.
If your intention is just
to run and to be out there
and just to let your mind go,
then that's what you're doing.
But if your intention
is to be there
and to be mindful and really
improve your performance,
that's something else.
AUDIENCE: Thank you.
GEORGE MUMFORD: Yeah.
AUDIENCE: I was just confused a
little bit, George, about when
you're talking about slowing
everything down in elongating
everything.
And yet you're talking--
the other sport
that you've been
involved in primarily
is basketball, which
happens in split seconds.
GEORGE MUMFORD: That's right.
AUDIENCE: And having to be
incredibly attuned and present.
I mean what-- it's a
contradiction to me, I guess.
GEORGE MUMFORD: Yeah, it
sounds like a contradiction.
I was watching this program.
It was on the human-- I think
it was on sight or the brain.
And it was about
these firefighters
that were in the
Northwest fighting a fire.
And one of the
things a brain can do
is-- so they were in this
place, and all a sudden, they
got trapped by the fire.
It surrounded them.
And so the brain has this
trick where it can slow down
perception where
these folks were
able to slow-- it slows down
your perception so that things
seem-- they slow down.
There's a way of relating
experience where you're
coming out of that space.
You just have two seconds.
It seems like an eternity.
And it's like
relativity [INAUDIBLE].
So if your team is
up by one point,
and it's two seconds to
go, and the other team
has the ball, that's
a long two seconds.
But if you're the team
that is trying to score,
that two seconds
is not enough time.
But so perception is
really interesting.
So there's a way of
relating to your experience.
And then by programing
yourself when you're not
on the court by slowing
down and understanding--
and a lot of times,
the slowing down
is not to habitually
react, but just
to let things speak to you.
And in that space,
the perception,
it creates more time.
And so it's not like
you're doing it on purpose.
It happens because you are
open and not mechanically
reacting to things.
You are actually letting
things speak to you.
And so it's something
that I talk about,
but unless you experience
it, it may not make sense.
But I'm pretty sure there's
times when, depending on-- it's
not just sports-- but when
you're looking at something,
and for some reason, there's
enough patience there
and a willingness to just
hang out and that not knowing.
If that makes any sense.
It's just not knowing.
And so you cultivate
that by being mindful
and because you know
what's going to happen
and you program your autonomic--
you program your neural net
to know what to do.
And they say that the speed of
trust, like if you trust things
and you have-- and
you know things
are going to turn out well,
you've got a lot of patience.
It's perception
of-- it's relative.
So there's an idea that we
have the same perception,
and everything's the same speed.
But the body and the mind,
when you say save me,
the intention to save
you-- the unconscious
has a way of slowing
perception down so that we have
time to do what we have to do.
And these guys-- it was just an
instinct, a survival instinct.
These firefighters were able to
save their lives because they
were able to slow down time.
And they get to where they
need to get and they dig.
And then they put the
things over themselves
so that they can do that.
And a lot of times, you see it.
In the book, I talk about
when I was a substance abuser,
using heroin.
And one time, I was giving
myself an injection,
and the needle broke.
And it started
moving in my vein.
And I slowed down time.
I tied up my arm, and I was able
to go to the emergency room,
and they were able to catch it.
Because if that I had gone to
my heart, I would have died.
So it slowed down time, and
I was not in my right mind.
But my brain knew what to do.
So it's not just
because the mindfulness
allows us to do that.
There's a life instinct.
There's a way that the
nervous system, when
we get out of the way,
it knows what to do.
And so I cited this situation.
So yeah, it's not a paradox
that you're moving really fast,
but because you're coming from
the eye of the hurricane-- My
Sifu, my Tai Chi teacher, said
there's movement in stillness
and stillness in movement.
So you can be quick
and not be in a hurry.
That's what John
Wooden, and that
was his famous saying, the
Hall of Fame coach for UCLA.
He said, be quick, but
don't be in a hurry.
And so there's a way of
relating the experience where
there's just time.
Just like people will tell
you, when they're in the zone,
that basket is huge
or that goal is huge.
And you can't describe it.
So it being huge, there's
something about it.
And some people--
Pele, he had this thing
he would do where he would
move his body one way,
and the goalie starts
moving this way.
And then he would-- boom.
He would do this thing.
They have a name for it.
But he had this
ability, unconsciously,
to reverse direction before
the other person knew
what was going to happen.
And if they do an
fMRI on you, they
can tell you what
decision you're
going to make before
you're aware of it
because this part of
the brain that trigger,
or the neuronet that signals
or that's stimulated, that it
fires before we're aware of it.
So there's this
space-- this time
before stimulus and response.
And so most of the time,
because it's reactive
and we're not paying
attention, there's no time.
But when we're paying
attention and we can see it
as it's arising, then
we can create space
and be able to have a thing.
So it's not-- some
of this stuff,
if you're trying
to figure out what
the left brain, if
you're right-handed,
it ain't going to get there.
There's something you
have to experience.
It's like implicit learning is
what we call a non-declarative.
It's just something--
because they've
done this with these
tests with cards.
People can-- they can pick
cards, two decks of cards,
and then your unconscious
knows what cards to pick
and it works better when your
conscious mind is not involved.
So when you know and
you program yourself,
you have time because
this reaction.
It's like there's a
seeing, and there's
no space between
seeing and reacting
because the seeing is moving.
You see this in baseball, or
any sports the ball is hit,
and the guy is moving
this way towards the ball.
He's not thinking about it.
His body is just been trained--
KAREN MAY: He's
that well trained.
GEORGE MUMFORD: --to do that.
So there's no--
There's plenty of time
because there's-- something
is moving that's already got
what's happening.
That's already
prepared and ready
to respond to what's happening.
I know it may not make sense,
but that's the way it is.
KAREN MAY: We're going to--
GEORGE MUMFORD: OK, thank you.
KAREN MAY: --leave
it there, George.
Absolutely lovely
to hear from you.
Stick around if you want
to ask him more questions
or have him sign your book.
And if you haven't read
it, I recommend it.
GEORGE MUMFORD: Thank you.
