MALE SPEAKER: Well,
welcome everybody.
Super excited to have
everyone in attendance
for this very special day.
Talks at Google and the
Black Googler Network
are super excited to be
able to welcome to the stage
a man that I have
very copious notes
that I need to refer
to to make sure I hit
every single awesome accolade.
I'm still going to
miss a ton of them.
So welcome to the stage a man
with two decades of experience,
of impact in the world, and
sharing his thoughts and ideas
as a poet, hip hop artist,
songwriter and actor.
He's released six
books and five albums
and has vaulted himself onto
the list of best selling
poet of all time.
I'm not even sure
how you do that,
but you got to be pretty amazing
to-- to make that happen.
[LAUGHTER]
So we're going to have
a lot of fun tonight.
Some of the
performances we're going
to have are selections
from his book,
"USA" and his album
"MartyrLoserKing"
which my personal favorite
is "Think Like the Book Say."
I've had that on
repeat all week.
So we might hear
that later tonight.
We'll see.
[LAUGHTER]
So Saul Williams has
performed in over 30 countries
and has read at over
300 universities
with invitations that have
spanned from the White House
to Queen Elizabeth Hall.
And he's actually just
returning from a tour of Europe
and will be doing three nights
of shows here in Chicago.
So I'm not sure if
there's any tickets left,
but you can try and
check those out and see
what might be still available.
So it goes without
saying, we are
super pleased to have none
other than Saul Williams
joining us here today.
And please welcome me and join
me in giving him a warm welcome
to the stage.
[APPLAUSE]
SAUL WILLIAMS: President of
Archaeological Indifference,
Vice President of Truth,
Secretary of Statistics,
Minister of
Celebrity in Justice,
Chief of Staff in Serpent,
Blessed Page-turner
of the Great Book of
Misdeeds and Overestimations,
Bishop of the Great Climate War,
Minister of the Deteriorating
Sky, Baron of Epic Boredom
and Self-indulgence,
all gathered notables,
good afternoon.
[LAUGHTER]
Hack into dietary sustenance,
tradition versus health.
Hack into comfort, compliance.
Hack into the rebellious gene.
Hack into doctrine,
capitalism in relation
to free labor and slavery.
Hack into the
history of the bank.
Is beating the odds a mere act
of joining the winning team?
Hack into desperation
and loneliness,
the history of community
in the marketplace.
Hack into land
rights and ownership.
Hack into business
law, proprietorship.
Hack into ambition and greed.
Hack into forms of government,
systems of control,
the relation of
suffering and sufferance.
Hack into faith and
morality, the treatment
of one faith towards another.
Hack into masculinity,
femininity, sexuality,
what is taught, what is
felt, what is learned,
what is shared.
Hack into God, stories of
creation, serpents and eggs.
Hack into nature, biodynamics,
biodiversity, cycles
and seasons.
Hack into time,
calendars, Descartes,
its relationship to doubt.
Is it wired to fear the notion
of control, the space time
continuum, the force of gravity,
whether the opposite of gravity
is freedom?
Hack into freedom, power,
responsibility, justice,
the Bill of Rights.
Hack into coincidence the
summer of '68, the 27 Club,
the number of people
with Facebook profiles,
people who choose to share,
people who share too much,
people who seem lonely,
people who want to connect,
people who want to uplift,
people who need uplifting.
Hack into self-help,
self-sufficiency,
and self-indulgence.
Hack into crazy.
Hack into lunatic.
Hack into star.
Hack into infamous,
notorious the effects
of the construct of
poverty on the psyche,
the effects of the construct of
race, the effects of cruelty,
the victims that survived.
There is a panel marked
survival-- three simple copper
wires coiled round an orb.
Hack into orbit,
equatorial landmines,
useful in precious
metals-- coltan as cotton.
Hack into hazardous, nuclear,
blue clear, cloud form and fish
farm, cow farts and pig shit.
Hack into horse,
industrial, digital.
Hack into code.
Use your instrument as metaphor.
Harness your craft.
Hack into the mainframe.
Dismantle definition
dogma and duty.
Hack into destiny.
Hack into dreams,
subtext and subconscious.
Hack into heart, cardio,
Congo, blood rich in oil.
Hack into suffering and despair.
Hack into the unfair advantages
of those lucky enough
to be born into one family
or another, into one
condition or another.
Hack into the
circumstantial evidence
that proves the obvious
and wakes the oblivious.
Hacking into birthright,
bloodlines royal untainted.
Hack into
superstition, old wives
tales, rituals of the shaman.
Hack into DNA, the
pharmaceutical industry,
chemistry the modern
day rape of the forests.
Hacked into the database.
Hack into the subconscious,
the panel marked survival.
Hack into celebrity.
Hack into the cultural
development of taste.
Hack into violence,
fear, and ignorance.
How are they linked?
Good afternoon, everyone.
[APPLAUSE]
You want to come up?
I think that Josh and I decided
we're going to talk a bit
and intersperse it with a
little bit of performance
if that's cool?
AUDIENCE: Yeah, sounds great.
SAUL WILLIAMS: We'll
keep it moving.
And maybe it'll
raise new questions.
And we'll keep moving like that.
So it's my pleasure
to introduce--
[LAUGHTER]
JOSH: Well, I just have to
say, that was really awesome.
And it's so cool to have
you at Google, Saul.
SAUL WILLIAMS: Thank you.
Oh, oh-- OK.
JOSH: It's excellent.
So we have questions,
lot of questions--
SAUL WILLIAMS: All right, cool.
JOSH: --so many questions we had
to edit them down quite a bit.
SAUL WILLIAMS: All right.
JOSH: And I'd say the
first thing is your music,
your poetry is infused
with social and political
commentary, like nonstop.
SAUL WILLIAMS: Mhm.
JOSH: And technology is such
a massive factor in that.
SAUL WILLIAMS: Yeah.
JOSH: What is it about online
culture you find interesting?
SAUL WILLIAMS: It's just what I
find interesting about culture.
And art is a
reflection of culture.
And if I were not-- if my work
did not reflect online culture,
I don't know if I'd be
significantly reflecting
culture.
It's a huge part of who
we are at this point.
It's a huge part of how we
operate, how we interact.
And there's a lot of power
yielded through that.
And then there are
the powers that be.
And I'm interested in
the intersectionality
between our individual
power as human beings,
as communities,
and as individuals
as is juxtaposed to the powers
and power structures that
aim to control, diffuse
our movement or movements,
for that matter.
So I don't consider
myself an activist.
I don't consider it a big deal
that my work reflects shit
that's going on in the world.
I consider it more
weird that there are so
many songs about,
like, strip clubs
as if there's not other
shit going on in the world.
[LAUGHTER]
You know, I think
my shit is normal.
It's just like, OK, here
is an overview of what
I see going on, you know?
I don't know why there
aren't more, like, you know,
Chelsea Manning anthems.
You know, like, to me it
seems like, yeah, why not?
So--
JOSH: Yeah.
So art is a big channel
for social change.
So you're saying it is like
you're not seeing much of that.
SAUL WILLIAMS: Uh, there's
a lot of it happening.
And I think that, you know,
things move cyclically
through different
artistic journalists.
So that for example, you know,
if this were the '70s, maybe
we'd be talking about film.
And in the '90s, we'd be
talking about independent film.
And today, we're
talking about series.
And there's a huge
movement in visual arts
that's happening right now.
There's something going on
in performing arts right now.
There's new avenues of digital
arts that are occurring.
So that you may
not be witnessing
certain things happening
let's say in popular music.
But, you know, it's
also interesting
that the first people to suffer
with the rise of technology,
and hacker culture, and all
this were, like, musicians.
And what, hackers don't
fucking like music--
you know what I'm saying?
But, you know,
the music industry
suffered, but musicians
suffered as well, right?
And so we may be
looking-- you know, like,
if we look at popular
music, maybe we can say,
OK, maybe you don't see a lot
of things addressed in that.
But that's popular music.
If you look at underground
movements in music,
maybe you'll find more.
And maybe it's not the music.
Maybe it's in visual arts
where you're seeing it more.
Maybe it's in, you know,
the world of graphic novels,
for example, is blowing
up in America, you know?
And there's a lot, like,
graphic artists that
are approaching these
topics that we might want
to hear more of in
music, but we're
seeing it expressed
in a different way.
JOSH: Who are some of
the artists-- like,
you talk about graphic
artists and visual series.
Who are some of those artists
that really inspire you?
SAUL WILLIAMS: That
inspire me-- living?
[LAUGHTER]
I'm inspired by a
lot of dead people--
[LAUGHTER] --that have been
killed by the systematic--
[LAUGHTER]
--seriously.
[LAUGHTER]
But who are people
that are inspiring me?
Gosh, I always go blank when
that question is raised.
There's tons of people.
I don't know.
On one hand, I might
say visual artists
like let's say Wangechi Mutu,
or someone like Molly Crabapple,
or a writer like Warren Ellis.
This is-- you know,
like when we're
talking about
graphic novel world,
someone like Warren
Ellis, or because I really
love, like, the
"Transmetropolitan" series,
for example.
I like filmmakers.
Let's see, there
are weird people
like-- I'm thinking
of dead people.
But there's people like
[? Alan ?] [? Gomez. ?] If you
want to help me, you can.
There are people like-- I mean,
I'm still also discovering--
discovering, like, roaming
through references.
So there's also people like
Tarkovsky or Chris Marker,
you know, that-- I think
that in the last poem, which
is called "Coltan
as Cotton," I talk
about the taste and the cultural
signifiers of taste, you know,
and how we-- we have
our references here.
Tarantino-- everybody--
oh, Tarantino--
what do you think of the
latest Tarantino-- you know?
Whereas maybe 20 years ago,
everybody might have been like,
you know, what do you think of
the latest Cassavetes-- or not.
You know, I remember going
to Amoeba Music in LA
and looking in the
great directors
section of their DVDs.
And Cassavetes wasn't there.
And I was there with
someone from France
who was like, how is
Cassavetes not here when
that is your greatest
director-- you know?
So that we have
different references.
JOSH: Right.
SAUL WILLIAMS: You know-- and
ideas of what we think is great
and how outsiders
look and go, no.
That's what's great about
what you guys are creating
or what have you.
So I don't know.
I don't know.
But there's tons of people.
But I can never think
of them when asked.
[LAUGHTER]
JOSH: Your story
reminds me of what
we were talking about a little
bit earlier about in Chicago,
the old Chess Records--
SAUL WILLIAMS: Mhm.
JOSH: --offices-- how
someone from France,
a colleague of ours, stopped by.
He wanted to see that place.
And, like, for him, that was
a huge cultural reference.
SAUL WILLIAMS: Yeah.
JOSH: But in Chicago,
it might be overlooked.
SAUL WILLIAMS: Exactly.
And so, yeah.
In response to that, I said,
you know, the Keith Richards
book who talks about how the
Rolling Stones-- he says it
in like the first chapter of
his book where he's just like,
we basically sold the
blues back to Americans
because they were too
racist to accept it
from the black people
that created it.
So we just sang blues songs
and gave it back to them.
But they were like, how the
fuck are you not listening
to this shit?
Well, we'll just sing
their songs or, you know,
rip off of their songs.
Oh, and now you love it.
JOSH: Yeah.
SAUL WILLIAMS: Yeah, so
yeah, these references--
but for them, in England,
in their schools,
listening to those
Muddy Water or whatever,
you know, Lightnin' Hopkins or
what have-- they-- blown away
by it, blown away.
And I'm also interested in that.
I'm interested in the
dialogue between cultures.
I'm interested in how,
you know, one blues singer
named Pink and
another blues singer
named Floyd can inspire some
kids, in England, you know,
to come out with a band.
And there's this
dialogue going on.
Or you think of Fela
Kuti being in LA in '68
and hearing, like, Jim Morrison,
and Sly Stone, and James Brown,
and going back to Nigeria
and creating this sound.
Before that, he's
making like jazz stuff--
and going back and
creating this sound that
is this fusion of this-- what
became Afro-pop but, you know,
fused with this soul,
funk, and all this stuff.
This dialogue between cultures,
which happens way more easily
now with technology-- you see
it a lot with electronic artists
and what have you, although not
as much as it could, you know?
And I don't think there's enough
correspondence, necessarily,
between-- like for
example, my current album
"MartyrLoserKing."
I'm really thinking
a lot about or I
was listening to a lot of
traditional, like, folkways
type recordings of traditional
music that some of it,
let's say, comes
from the Great Lakes
region of the continent
of Africa, right?
And what I'm
interested in there is
the minimalism and
the poly-rhythm,
which juxtaposes itself
in the music in such a way
so that at some point,
you feel like you're
listening to digital music.
It's trance music.
You're like, this
is fucking trance.
[LAUGHTER]
And it's totally-- it
starts to feel electronic.
And you're like holy shit.
So that then the
question of what
is actually the most
forward thinking
or progressive sounding
thing, you put that
alongside some like
EDM shit, and you're
like those guys
are not doing shit,
actually, except for the drop.
[LAUGHTER]
I respect the drop.
JOSH: And apparently
it sounds amazing
in cavernous Vegas nightclubs--
SAUL WILLIAMS: Yeah.
JOSH: --from what I hear.
SAUL WILLIAMS: You know, yeah.
JOSH: So let's talk about
"MartyrLoserKing" a little bit.
SAUL WILLIAMS: All right.
JOSH: Because you were talking
about the tribal drumming
and those poly-rhythms
and then fusing
that with digital electronics.
SAUL WILLIAMS: Mhm.
JOSH: It does have
that trance-like sound.
But as far as the story,
it's a sprawling concept.
SAUL WILLIAMS: Mhm.
JOSH: Some of your
lyrics from the album
are in the book "USA--"
SAUL WILLIAMS: Yeah.
JOSH: --like "Coltan as Cotton."
SAUL WILLIAMS: I was working
on it at same time, yeah.
JOSH: So tell us about
"MartyrLoserKing."
What does that mean?
Who is this character?
SAUL WILLIAMS: "MartyrLoserKing"
is the screen name
of a hacker who lives in Central
Africa, in Burundi, actually.
And it's a guy who's
hiding out in Burundi.
And I chose this region,
because essentially,
this region, the
Congo, Rwanda, Burundi,
is one of the spots where you
find the largest collection
of cobalt, coltan, you know.
And what I find interesting
about our reliance
on these resources, the same
way we have relied on rubber,
you know, like coffee, sugar.
There's a long history
of mining these regions
and exploitation juxtaposed
with Western comfort, right?
And the irony is that
coltan is something
that distributes power through
small circuitry boards, right.
Distributes power-- so I'm
thinking about the distribution
of power-- right-- and the
distribution of wealth,
and all these things, and
the blocks along the way.
And for me, I found
it interesting.
And this isn't necessarily
what the story is about.
But I'm saying this as an aside.
What I find interesting
is that so many
of our tech, digital,
virtual advances
are so heavily reliant
on analog exploitation.
And I'm trying to figure out
how we can make real advances.
I'll count it as
real when it doesn't
involve analog exploitation.
What I mean by that
is just old school,
commonplace exploitation.
You can imagine
the story of what's
happening around those mines,
who owns them, you know,
and all the, like,
domino effect reactions
of the bullshit surrounding
that leading to us, you know,
calling the next Uber.
So I have a village
of hackers who
live in a place that's
called Martyr Loser Kingdom.
And they built this
village at this place,
not at a coltan mine, actually.
It's a bunch of,
like, escapee miners
who end up at a
e-waste camp, which
is where all of our digital
shit, hardware goes to die.
And so you have mounds of
motherboards and all this shit.
But they arrived there-- one
guy arrives there like right
at the cusp of rainy season.
And the main thing that
he needs is shelter.
And so he ends up
building this shack out
of old computer parts.
Other people see
what's going on end up.
There's a village that's then
built of old computer parts.
The story is sci-fi.
So there is a character
that arrives who is a modem.
And-- [LAUGHTER]-- and so it is
the story essentially of what
happens when this
village connects.
And it's also a story about how,
because of the sort of, like,
utility aligned with
necessity and what have you,
what happens when--
you know, there's
a character there in the story
who creates a-- and these are
taken from real stories--
but who builds a 3D printing
machine, for example, you
know-- which is very necessary,
because in this story, there's
all sorts of people needing
all sorts of things.
And so they're
providing anything
from prosthetic limbs
and all this stuff.
So you have this kind of
like almost cyborg community
that is the most advanced
tech hub on the planet,
actually, that no
one knows about.
And eventually, basically, he
becomes like a virtual Banksy.
At first, he's just
doing some, like, kind
of gray hat sort of hacking
shit that's just kind of funny.
But, you know, it
gains in popularity.
And it gets a little crazy when
he starts playing around with,
like, that amber alert
technology, the shit that
allows him to choose a region
and send a message to a bunch
of people in a region.
And then it gets crazy when
they hack into a satellite.
Because then it's a question
of security and defense.
And so they go-- he goes from
virtual fame or notoriety
to being labeled a terrorist.
And what's funny is
that their community is
able to exist much longer
than one would imagine,
because the Western intelligence
sees the signal coming
from there and is like,
well, obviously somebody
is throwing their signal.
[LAUGHTER]
There is no fucking way that
this is coming from Burundi.
And so it's also about that.
[LAUGHTER]
Like, you'll never find
us just because you're
too arrogant to look at the
source of where this shit is
coming from, you know?
So it's also about that.
But yeah, Martyr Loser King
starts off as an individual.
But then it becomes a
title once Martyr Loser
King, the first one,
is killed after being
labeled a terrorist.
And then there's someone,
another character
named Neptune Frost, who
is the Martyr Loser King.
And so it's just about
this hacker community,
this anarchist group that
influences society as we know
it through initially
a bunch of, like,
funny hacks that's-- you
know, it's kind of like,
I don't know, Guccifer.
You know, you guys know
the hacker Guccifer
who, like, took
George Bush's emails
and showed the world
that he was painting
and all this sort of stuff.
And I think Guccifer--
they're using Guccifer now
to try to incriminate
Hillary Clinton.
Yeah, they locked up Guccifer.
He was in-- I forget where he
was-- Armenia or something,
Hungary-- I forget where
this guy is actually from.
But yeah, he became
sort of known.
He got caught.
And now they're trying to say,
look, you know, they use him.
He's one of the
locked up hackers who,
like, makes these
deals and like, OK,
you have access to a computer
if you can help us-- blah, blah,
blah, blah-- you know?
And so it's about
all of this stuff.
It's about the whistle
blowing stuff that's going on.
It's about transparency.
It's about the tech
wave of the moment,
but centered in the place
where-- that is dependent,
that this whole thing is
dependent on, in a sense,
you know?
And it's really
just a way for me
to dump a lot of current issues,
like, into my drum machine
and talk about them with
the slight veil of fiction.
JOSH: Yeah.
I know one of the tracks
on the album, "Ashes,"
I think you wrote that
after it was Eric Garner--
SAUL WILLIAMS: Mhm.
JOSH: --passed away.
So there are a lot
of other factors
that come into
the record, again,
like you were
saying, like social.
SAUL WILLIAMS: Oh,
yeah, yeah, yeah.
Exactly, yeah.
I mean, I'm definitely
talking about everything
from-- I mean, with
a story like that--
and then there's the character
Neptune Frost who's trans
actually, who's from Uganda,
where the anti-gay laws brought
by American evangelicals,
you know, are rampant.
And so, yeah.
The story allows me to talk
about everything from feelings
about the police, to feelings
about the militarization
of police forces, of
all of these things.
Why don't I play
a song real quick?
JOSH: Yeah.
Sounds great.
SAUL WILLIAMS: I want to
do a song called "The Noise
Came From Here."
I'm not going to play the video.
Although I'm running software
right now that a designer
friend of mine named
[? Missy ?] [? El ?] [? Leon ?]
who's in Mexico but created
this software that we've taken
on the road with us as we're
touring-- and basically,
we're able to feed it.
I'm able to feed it text,
images, which he glitches up.
And it randomizes as we go so
it's happening in real time
as we're on stage.
But yeah, it's interesting.
So anyway, I want to just do
the song called "The Noise Come
From Here."
You mentioned "Ashes."
Maybe we'll get to "Think
Like the Book Say."
JOSH: Yeah, perfect.
SAUL WILLIAMS: But let me just
do something really quick,
since it feels like the moment.
JOSH: Yep.
Feels perfect.
SAUL WILLIAMS: Right.
JOSH: I'll step off and
let you do your thing.
SAUL WILLIAMS: You
don't have to step off
if you can sing with me.
JOSH: All right.
SAUL WILLIAMS: No, I'm joking.
[LAUGHTER]
JOSH: You don't want
to hear that, trust me.
[MUSIC- SAUL WILLIAMS, "THE
 NOISE CAME FROM HERE"]
We won't be silenced.
No, the noise came from here.
Your never ending war will
not be waged from here.
The future is my home.
It all came from here.
Police and sirens, guns
are on parade right here.
You never touch my love.
Ay, ay, ay, ay.
Your bullets and your guns,
you know we paid for it all.
Your scriptures
severing tongues,
you know we paid for it all.
With oil and our blood, you
know we paid for it all.
We won't be silenced, no,
you know we paid for it all.
Your bullets and your guns,
you know we paid for it all.
With oil and our blood, you
know we paid for it all.
We won't be silenced, no,
you know we paid for it all.
You never touch my love.
Ay, ay, ay, ay.
Your bullets and your guns,
you know we paid for it all.
Your scriptures
severing tongues,
you know we paid for it all.
With oil and our blood, you
know we paid for it all.
You never touch my love.
[MUSIC- SAUL WILLIAMS, "ASHES"]
And this is the song
"Ashes" we talked about.
Dancing on the corpses' ashes.
Dancing on the corpses' ashes.
Dancing on the corpses' ashes.
Dancing on--
Here comes Lazarus,
triangulating green God,
dear Pythagoras,
equal to the sum
of what the matter is--
what the matter is--
what the matter is--
what the matter is.
What's the matter?
Some politician's
pocket's getting fatter.
The Robert Moses of
the useless chatter
ignores the data-- ignores
the data-- ignores the data.
But he keeps building
the wall between the poor
and the rich building,
headquarters for the police
worth a billion.
They make a killing.
Protect and serve,
your bullets won't
deliver the last word, Police
of the religions as absurd.
Fuck the word.
Heed the feeling.
The calculated
masses are appealing,
the jury hung from
every museum ceiling.
History tries its best
to keep us kneeling.
We have come standing on
a field of bankers' dung,
extinguishing the
fires of the young.
We should have listened
when the sirens rung.
Cause we found hem dancing
on the graves of the ones who
had renowned them.
And they couldn't give a fuck.
All right, so check it out.
Come back up here.
[APPLAUSE]
Thanks.
One, I didn't show
the video, because I
wanted you guys to see
some of this software.
But we have the
director for the video
from "The Noise Came From Here,"
the first song I recorded,
performed here, Anisia Uzeyman.
And that video,
just to show some
of how we're connecting
that story to global issues
and what have you, we
shot it in Ferguson.
And we shot it around the area
where Michael Brown's body
had laid for many hours.
And there's now
a memorial there.
We shot it around that
memorial-- and not simply
there, as you'll see if
you check out the video.
But part of-- but the song
itself uses a sample that
comes from the Twa,
which is a group that's
found in Rwanda in the
Great Lakes region that's
kind of, you know, somewhat
disappeared in a similar way
that a lot of Native Americans
have been disappeared here
in the States and
in the Americas.
But you see, we're
taking sounds from there,
electronic sounds, ideas that
really-- that are not just
here.
Because when you talk
about, you know, like,
there's that idea in the
song "Ashes," which followed,
where as you mentioned,
it is partially
a response to Eric Garner.
There the lyric
that I love, which
is "headquarters for the
police worth a billion."
Because New York is building
this billion dollar police
headquarters, you know?
They make a killing
is the statement.
But the thing is, it's
not just in America.
There's people in
Haiti, in the Congo,
around the world with
the same, like, fuck
the police sentiment.
I can say that in
Google offices, right?
Fuck the police--
is that all right?
And so-- [LAUGHTER]-- and so
what's important for me is
to realize that-- because a lot
of times we get stuck in this
binary sort of thinking where
we think it's black and white,
it's racism.
But it's a question of power.
It's a question of power,
a question of authority.
And of course when you talk
about these mega corporations,
and [? businesses ?],
and all this stuff,
and the authority that
they begin to yield.
Even in a corporate-- I
mean, in a political climate
in this day and age,
it's important for us
as people to also
realize the power
that we can wield in questioning
authority and challenging
authority, you know?
And so for me, I'm just
juxtaposing those worlds,
trying to connect a few dots.
I mean, that's pretty
much the idea--
and [? is ?] [? it ?]
expressed for example,
when you see protesters
in Ferguson being advised
by people living in Gaza and
in Palestine and saying, oh,
this is how you, you know,
respond to tear gas, you know,
like the sharing
information and all that.
There's beautiful
things that technology
has allowed us to share.
And so I'm just trying to
share some of those ideas
through music, and
art, and what have you.
JOSH: Yeah.
Yeah.
Technology can--
as you mentioned,
it can be a catalyst
for social change.
And you mentioned some things
in the international community.
And you've lived abroad.
SAUL WILLIAMS: Mhm.
JOSH: You've lived in Paris.
I think you've--
SAUL WILLIAMS: I
lived in Brazil.
JOSH: In Brazil?
SAUL WILLIAMS: Yeah.
JOSH: In fact, one
of our colleagues
also noticed that in
one of your other songs,
you actually cut
into Portuguese.
SAUL WILLIAMS: Yeah,
"Think Like the Book Say."
Yeah.
JOSH: So having lived
abroad, how does
that affect your perceptions?
And how have your perceptions
as being an American changed?
SAUL WILLIAMS: Well, I lived
in Brazil when I was 16.
I was an exchange student.
And I'm from New York,
from a small city
like 60 miles outside of New
York called Newburgh, New York.
And so I arrived there.
I'm 16.
I'm a junior in high school.
I'm supposed to be
there for a year.
I was there for a year.
The first thing that
happens is, I-- and I
talk about this in the
introduction to "USA."
I talk about how I arrive
there and, well, first, school
is on strike.
So I find out I'm not going
to be going to school,
because the teachers
are on strike.
And that strike
lasted for six months.
In fact, I was an exchange
student to Brazil.
But I did not go to school
while I lived in Brazil--
[LAUGHTER]
--which was fine by me.
And then the other
side of it was
that if school were not on
strike, as a 16-year-old,
I would have had to
go to night school.
Because if you were
15 or older, it
was expected that you would
be working in the fields
during the day.
And so high school
was only night school.
And so me and my
little, you know,
Public Enemy in my headphones
and all this shit was like,
what?
You know, like just
this crazy reaction
so that suddenly, I'm
starting to realize--
and so you juxtapose that with
the fact that people you know,
like-- when school actually
did start, by that time
I had befriended the
English teacher who was also
my Capoeira instructor.
And so I went as an assistant.
And I only went a few times,
because whenever I would go,
school would just stop.
And everyone would
gather around me and just
be like, we have questions.
We have questions, you know?
And one of the first
questions I was always
asked whatever city I visited
was, is America really free?
Is it free like in the movies,
like we see in the movies?
Is it really free?
Is it free with sex?
Is it free like we
see in the movies?
The other question
I'd get asked was--
and this was all
the time-- what's it
like to be sprayed
with a fire hose?
JOSH: Mm.
SAUL WILLIAMS: And I'd be
like, oh, you mean my parents.
[LAUGHTER] I have no idea.
[LAUGHTER] I have no idea.
But I would always get
asked this question,
because the images
that were diffused
through media that they
were getting were old.
And so like, oh, a
black guy from America,
you must know what that's--
what's that like, you know?
And so what did it do to me to
be-- like, how did that shift
my perspective of America?
Well, the best way I
can answer that is I
remember my first trip
to the supermarket.
And I was told by
my host family,
they're explaining to
me, like, everything
that you find in the supermarket
comes from no more than like 20
miles around this place.
And then I'm looking
at the fruit.
And there's, like-- you know,
there's black in the bananas.
And the oranges
aren't as orange.
And you know, I see all this
kind of discolored stuff.
But I'm from the states.
So I'm like, oh, wow.
I expected that this
tropical-- I thought this was
going to be-- and I'd taste it.
And it's delicious.
And I'm like, but it's
not-- he's like, ah, well,
there's a farm over there that's
owned by an American company.
And they use these chemicals.
But we don't use those on ours.
And so if you're looking
for the stuff that
looks like your idea of an
orange, your idea of that,
that's over there where
they use the chemicals.
Here in our supermarket
is just the real shit.
Taste it.
I'm like, oh, it's delicious.
Good enough, huh?
And so those were
the sort of things
that I was like, oh, oh wow.
Now there's other side, right?
The other side was that at
the time when I lived there,
there really was
no middle class.
And we hear that here with
politicians all the time.
Like we're-- we're
destroying our middle class,
and all the shit.
But I lived with a family.
This is in 1989-- 1989 to '90.
I lived with a Japanese
family in Brazil.
The largest demographic
of Japanese living outside
of Japan is in Brazil.
And it's been that way
for like 100 years.
And so I lived with
a Japanese family
there who owned
sugar plantations
in the north of Brazil.
And they were oil rich,
because at that time,
most cars in Brazil
ran on ethanol, which
came from sugar cane-- then.
So also we have to remember,
it's not about technology
half the time.
It's about these
fucking lobbyists who
are trying to slow
the-- you know, I mean,
the first car was electric.
The second one was biodiesel.
You know, like it's-- for
real, it's not so much that
technology has not
afforded certain--
it's these corporations
that have had this--
exerted this control.
So yeah, I was living with a
family that was making oil,
making ethanol out of sugar
cane and in this beautiful house
that was next door to people
who lived with a dirt floor.
And when I say there
was no middle class,
that's what I mean.
I mean like literally next
door, people had a dirt floor.
And I'm in a house that had
a green room, a greenhouse
in the middle of the
house with birds living
in the wall with the
little microphones
that they had little
knobs around the house.
If you wanted to have the
tropical feel around the house,
you could just turn up
the knob in your room.
My bedroom--
[LAUGHTER]
It's true.
My bedroom-- they
had two other kids.
And so the third
bedroom was actually
the house's music
room where they had
a stereo built into the wall.
And that was my bedroom.
And that may be
why I'm here now.
Because living in
that room, which
was soundproof, which
I could shut the door
and put on anything I want,
turn it up as loud as I want.
And the sound was literally
coming from the wall.
And I would be
jumping on the bed
like fucking-- like--
with no school.
[LAUGHTER]
You know, yeah, it
was fucking crazy.
But in terms of America,
I learned a lot.
I learned a lot.
Another big lesson
for me was traveling.
At one point I traveled for two
months with 50 other exchange
students from around the
world and suddenly realized
how stupid I was.
Because all the kids from like
Denmark, England, Australia,
France, you know, they'd
be sitting there going,
did you hear about what
happened in Zimbabwe?
Oh my God, da-da-da, I
read about the thing that
went down in Beirut, da-da-da.
They'd be talking about things--
global crises-- right-- or just
world events.
And I was suddenly
like, where is that?
Oh-- no-- uh-- and
I'm like, fuck.
What are these-- and
not to mention the fact
that most of them
were speaking, like,
two or three different
languages and speaking
in English for my sake, right?
Or we could all
speak Portuguese.
So I suddenly had this
insight into-- because I
was a good student.
But I realized that regardless
of how good of a student
I was, what I was learning
in the American system
was not really
preparing me to sit
at a table with a bunch
of other 16-year-old kids
from around the world and
not feel like a total fucking
ignoramus, just
like nothing to say.
You know, like, have you
heard the new Kanye yet?
[LAUGHTER]
Like I just-- I had nothing
to contribute, you know?
I could talk about-- I--
because my family was activists,
I could talk about what was
happening in South Africa.
And that was funny--
not funny, but it
was funny because there
was an Afrikaner kid there
who was in total
denial and had no idea
what was going on in the
country where he was from.
And so I was like, what
about the 4,000 kids
being held in detention?
I knew because my
sister was an activist.
And we had been
boycotting companies
like Coca Cola and all the
shit in my house in New York.
And he was like, there are
no kids being held in-- no,
the blacks are treated
fairly in South Africa, which
reminded me of a
lot of Americans
I see abroad who are totally
unaware of what's actually
happening here.
So that's a long form
answer of what I picked up.
JOSH: We could probably go a
while on that one just alone.
[LAUGHTER]
So as much as people were
flocking around you asking you
questions when you
were in Brazil,
I think there is probably
some Googlers here
who might have some questions.
SAUL WILLIAMS: Let's do it.
JOSH: So we have some
mics here on the side
if we do have any questions
from the audience--
SAUL WILLIAMS: I'm going
to steal some water.
JOSH: --please step up.
And also, just so you're aware,
we have some books in the back.
We have also a handful
of vinyl records.
So if you have a
turntable and you're
going to listen to the
record, please pick one up.
OK.
AUDIENCE: How's it going?
Super.
[LAUGHTER]
SAUL WILLIAMS: [INAUDIBLE]
AUDIENCE: So I wanted to talk
a little bit about when you--
so the first time
I discovered you
was from the Nike commercial.
And I was like, this
is an amazing song.
You know, I need to
find out who this is.
And so it was
"Lists of Demands."
And I'm just curious
how you feel.
Like, I'm obviously getting--
I don't know you that well,
but I definitely get kind of a
little bit of like a subculture
and not really trying
to be mainstream--
how you kind of find-- you
know, would you participate
in additional commercials?
How do you kind of feel
about that looking back?
And just about
commercialism and, you know,
how you get yourself out there--
SAUL WILLIAMS: Sure.
AUDIENCE: I never would
have discovered you
if I hadn't heard you on
the commercial-- just kind
of the juxtaposition.
SAUL WILLIAMS: Well, cool.
It's true that I'm
really into subcultures.
It's not true that I have no
interest in the mainstream.
I'm interested in shifting
what the mainstream is about.
And through observation,
I realize that things
go in cycles, you know?
Like what's has
been of interest to
me is taking periphery
ideas and periphery arts
and seeing how far I can push
them into the mainstream.
I mean, for example, most of you
guys have heard of slam poetry
at this point.
And in 1996 when I first
started participating in that
and '98 when I came out
with my film "Slam,"
the idea was not to
avoid the mainstream.
It was to take these ideas
and these poems and say,
what happens if this is
the type of shit that
becomes the mainstream?
So I've been more aligned
with the idea of how do
we re-envision the mainstream?
Because like anybody else,
I sit back and go, wow,
Jimi Hendrix was
once mainstream.
Bob Dylan was once mainstream.
That shit was mainstream.
When can that happen again?
You know, so it's really about
pushing the mainstream so that
basically what I
discovered early on way
before the Nike
commercial-- because I
wrote that song in 2004.
That Nike commercial
came out in 2008--
was that if I-- so
that I basically
started dealing with
thinking of poetry
as coding and thinking
of how could I
embed my work with something
so that regardless of how
you encountered it,
you would walk away
with those things that made
you go look it up and go, ooh,
what's that about?
I want to-- da-da-da, you know?
Which is why I've never had any
issues about my music appearing
in any commercial or whatever.
As I said at the time when
I was confronted about it,
I was like, I don't really feel
like I did a Nike commercial.
I feel like Nike just a
Saul Williams commercial--
[LAUGHTER]
--you know?
[APPLAUSE]
Yeah.
That was the idea.
Because I essentially
felt like, it's not
like you watch the
commercial and you're like,
oh my God, I got to get
those shoes, you know?
Like good luck
selling your shoes.
We all buy that
shit anyway, right?
We all buy it anyway.
But you would watch it
and go, what is that song?
What is that?
And that wormhole that that
would lead you through,
through poets, other writers,
other references-- before you
know it, you're
in the subculture
that I've been trying
to introduce you to,
which has to do with the
collection of amazing artists,
and friends, and all
the things that we're
talking about-- diversity,
intersectionality
is the shit that was happening
in the open mics in the '90s.
You're welcome.
You understand what I'm saying?
Essentially, that's
been the plan--
is how do we embed our work
with the type of shit that makes
these guys at Wieden+Kennedy
or whatever go,
the song is really cool?
[LAUGHTER]
Glad you like it.
Because also here, we need
to eat and all that shit.
I mean, and my
background is in theater.
I started writing poetry
when I was in the grad acting
program at NYU.
I've never been like,
oh my God, I don't
want to be in the mainstream.
I've just looked at a lot
of shit in the mainstream
and been like, that's corny
as fuck, or worse yet,
that's negligent.
Why would you put that
message out there?
Why would you do that?
So when I had the opportunity
to write my first film
and act in it, which was
my thesis project at NYU,
the film "Slam,"
my first thought
was, OK, more than
likely, this is
going to reach the mainstream.
What do I want to put out there?
So every little
message, every idea,
every t-shirt I'm
wearing, all this is like,
let's put the shit
in the mainstream.
Let's see if we can get
that in the mainstream.
When I had the
opportunity after that
to do my first album
with Rick Rubin,
"Amethyst Rock Star," the
idea was the same thing.
It was just like,
OK, it's Rick Rubin.
This might reach the mainstream.
It's never been about the idea
of, like, avoid the mainstream.
Avoid conforming to
the idea of the fact
that you would think that
you need to conform in order
to reach it.
That's what I'm
avoiding is conforming,
not progressing and
evolving on ideas,
but conforming for the sake
of reaching the mainstream.
That is what I'm against.
That's what's whacked
to me, you know?
AUDIENCE: Cool.
Thanks.
AUDIENCE: So in a
lot of your travels,
you've been throughout Europe.
I know you just mentioned
you just got back.
What you're starting
to see a lot of times
is free speech coming
under a lot of pressure.
And you see cartoonists
or journalists
who are being persecuted
against or silenced.
And I was wondering, have you
as an artist and an activist,
have you ever been tempted
to be silenced or even
successfully silenced on
a certain topic or area?
And I was wondering if you could
talk a little more on that.
SAUL WILLIAMS: The only is
silencing that I've experienced
is whatever silencing
occurs that makes
some of you in this room
not hear of me until today.
My work has been in
enough platforms.
But there are those who
hear my work and go,
maybe not this platform--
[LAUGHTER] --you know?
Otherwise, I
can't-- I mean, yes.
There's always been
moments like for example,
here's a funny back story.
The idea for
"MartyrLoserKing" actually
came about when
Nickelodeon asked me
if I could write a few poems
for Black History Month.
[LAUGHTER] And I wrote--
and some of those poems
are in the book "USA"
actually, right?
And one of the
poems I had written
after hearing
someone mispronounce
the name Martin Luther King,
a francophone person, was I
started writing
this poem thinking
about a kid who comes
home from school like, I
heard about this great guy
today named Martyr Loser King,
you know?
And talking about-- and
he wanted to name his dog
that, right?
And Nickelodeon was like,
this is not going to work.
[LAUGHTER]
I didn't feel silenced.
I knew I was pushing it anyway.
That's what I meant.
I'm trying to push and see,
like, well, how far can we go?
JOSH: Hm.
SAUL WILLIAMS: How far
can we go, you know?
But I don't-- I can't say that
I have felt silenced by certain
forces.
But of course, you know,
there's-- I walk into tons
of places that are like--
I mean, because for me,
it's the most
minimalistic thing.
If I'm on the radio
where I can't curse,
I already feel silenced.
You know, I'm already
like what the fuck--
[LAUGHTER]
--you know?
Like what year is this?
What's up with our--
you know, because you
go to Europe for example.
And you hear all of the songs
that's on American radio
without any of the
beeps or whatever.
And you're just like, oh,
that's what they're saying.
I mean, you knew
it, but you never
heard them say it before
unless you were in a club.
But it's all on the radio there.
And it's all like, nigger,
ass, ho, bitch, ba-da-ba-da-ba.
And you're like, fucking hell.
And the kids are like,
I love American music--
[LAUGHTER]
--you know?
[LAUGHTER]
But they don't have the same
Puritan strain as us, you know?
And I think that gets in the way
of moving the dialogue forward.
And I'm not the first
to have that complaint.
I mean, Allen Ginsberg
said a great deal
about that same sort of
censorship that he encountered.
But no, I can't say
that I feel silenced.
But like I said, I do feel
like some people might
be afraid, or corporations,
or whatever might
be afraid to work with me.
But I've never been, like--
I have to make it clear.
I've never really been
afraid of corporate culture.
Like, "Slam" came out
through dry Trimark Cinema.
I have five books that came out
through MTV Books, you know?
My albums have come out
through Sony and all that.
No, I'm an independent artist
here because of who I am.
I'm an independent artist.
But I interact with these
motherfuckers all the time.
I love playing with the sharks.
It's fun.
[LAUGHTER]
You know, it's fun.
JOSH: All right, well,
speaking of silence,
I think we only have just
a couple of minutes left.
I think we might have time for
one more question. [INAUDIBLE]
AUDIENCE: So speaking
of playing with sharks,
where do you draw the line?
Or is there a line for folks you
wouldn't work with, or interact
with, or entities--
SAUL WILLIAMS: Oh, certainly.
AUDIENCE: --you woudn't?
I was curious what that line is.
SAUL WILLIAMS: Right.
Well, you know, I'm working on
this new program with Monsanto
right now.
I'm joking.
[LAUGHTER]
You know, I'm trying to
help Whole Foods find
higher pricing--
[LAUGHTER]
--in poorer neighborhoods.
No.
I mean, I kind of
take it as it comes.
I'm not sure, you know?
Like I said, I make my
living writing poetry.
I'm excited about
prospects of actually being
able to earn occasionally.
You know, like I'm
paid by stanza.
I think I play it by ear it.
It really-- I mean, I
have drawn lines before.
I remember once, years
ago, being asked-- and then
the other-- well, let
me finish that idea.
I remember being asked
years ago to write
a poem about a new Mercedes
for a Mercedes radio campaign.
And I actually never
liked Mercedes.
I was always-- as a kid, it was
like Michael, Prince, Mercedes,
Volvo.
And I was like Volvo.
The more hardcore, warm
seats-- they're-- ooh.
They're square.
You know, I like Volvo.
I don't know.
So I was like, I'm not doing it.
But then I did something
for Levi's, not
write for-- and then the
other thing, like, even
with the Nike
thing, I was like, I
don't think I could
do it if they asked
me to write something for it.
But if you want to take one of
my existing works and apply it,
I might be open, you know?
And so that's-- so it always
depends on what it is,
you know?
Like there was a--
at one point, I
was-- this was
before the "Holler
if you Hear Me" play that I did.
Years before that, I
was in communication
with Tupac Shakur's
mom as she was
planning something that
was kind of like "American
Idol" with poetry.
And it was going to
go across the states.
And there were going were
going to be all these poets.
And it was going
to be televised.
But she was teaming
with Burger King.
[LAUGHTER]
And they wanted
me to be the host.
And I had to be open to
the possibility of my poems
being on the side
of Burger King,
like, drinking containers.
And I was like, that's
where I draw the line.
[LAUGHTER]
I just coudln't-- I couldn't--
I just couldn't imagine.
I was like, no,
that's just not cool.
So it's just-- it depends.
It really depends, you know?
But I actually have
done a lot of stuff
where I'm like, that's cool.
You know, it works.
The most surprising
thing for me and I
guess the freest
form of interaction
with the corporate world for me
has come in the sports world.
Because as I'm making
this stuff, like,
for the revolution,
other people are like,
your music's really
great to run to--
[LAUGHTER]
--you know?
It's great for working-- I
meet football players who
are like, yo, man.
We work out to your shit, man.
[LAUGHTER]
I'm like, oh, I didn't
think about that, you know?
And so I've done tons
of stuff with, like,
Nike, Puma, like with
Adidas, with all this shit.
I'm like, oh, wow.
I didn't think about sports.
And I'm always open to
that shit, you know?
So it depends.
JOSH: Well, I think
we're over time.
I think--
SAUL WILLIAMS: Sorry.
I knew it was going to happen.
JOSH: We reached the end.
But it has been a
fascinating talk.
And your performance
was incredible.
And we're so glad that we have
some records and some books
to give out to Googlers.
Would you might sticking around
just for a few minutes as well?
SAUL WILLIAMS: Ah, I'm fine.
I'm here.
JOSH: Awesome.
SAUL WILLIAMS: Cool.
JOSH: All right,
aren't well again,
thanks Saul Williams for
joining us at Google.
[APPLAUSE]
SAUL WILLIAMS: Thank
you guys for having me.
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
[APPLAUSE]
