Where did it all go wrong
for Victoria?
For the first time in a century,
Victorians will be locked out
of New South Wales
to stop a second wave of COVID cases
from spreading.
These are uncertain times,
at home and around the world.
And now, our national defence
strategy is shifting to prepare.
There's lots to talk about tonight,
including our drinking habits.
You've got heaps of questions,
so let's get you some answers.
Welcome to Q+A.
(APPLAUSE)
Hi there. Welcome to the program.
Joining me tonight -
television host, comedian
and teetotaller Shaun Micallef,
whose now documentary explores
Australia's love affair with booze.
The Shadow Minister
for Environment and Water,
Terri Butler, is here.
Former Defence Minister
Christopher Pyne,
who's just released his memoir
after a 25-year career in politics -
and it's not called The Fixer -
it's called The Insider.
And Today show entertainment reporter
and Gamilaroi woman Brooke Boney
is here as well.
Please make them all feel welcome.
(APPLAUSE)
It's great to have
some more of you here too.
And remember, you can stream us live
on iview, Facebook, YouTube,
Twitter and Instagram.
#QandA is the hashtag.
Please do join in the conversation.
Our first question tonight
comes from Mari Webb.
Thanks, Hamish.
My question is for the panel.
I feel we are on a knife's edge
with COVID-19.
We had the Ruby Princess debacle,
and now Melbourne is doing it tough.
Is it pure, blind luck
that my home state is fine
while Melbourne is not?
What can we learn from this?
Terri Butler.
It's...it's a terrifying time,
isn't it, for a lot of people.
And I know that people around
the country have been following
the events in Victoria,
and our hearts really go out...
Yeah.
..to them.
I think what's really important
is that we recognise
that we're still in a pandemic
that's got a long way to run
before we know what's going
to happen in the future.
Christopher Pyne, do you have a view
as to what's gone wrong in Victoria?
Well, I think they have a different
process to the other states.
For example, in South Australia,
at the hotel quarantines,
we have not just security guards,
but also South Australian
Police Force, public health nurses,
doctors from the Department
of Health, public servants -
I mean, it's a whole
full-court press.
And my understanding -
which could be exaggerated -
but my understanding is that,
in Victoria,
they've mainly been managed
by the security firms.
And the security guard firms
have said
that they've had
very little training
in terms of dealing with COVID.
I think one of the reports was
that they had four minutes of
training before they were sent in
to the front line, if you like.
And I think that process
has clearly been found wanting.
But the criticism now
with these housing blocks
is that the response is
too heavy-handed.
I mean, doesn't this show that
it's very difficult for the states
to get it right, no matter
what the circumstance?
No, I don't think
it's too heavy-handed.
I think the states and the nations
that went hard early
on social distancing - the new term
for staying away from each other -
have proven to have had
the better outcomes.
And I think Victoria
was very much part of that
until, obviously, very recently.
And I think the failures have come
from the quarantining
in hotels in Melbourne.
That seems to be where
the hot spots have leached from.
And, I mean, Sweden
is another example.
A lot of people early in the COVID
crisis, the pandemic, were saying,
"Oh, we should be doing
what Sweden's doing -
"they're not locking
everything down,
"they've still got cafes,
schools, and so on going,
"and people are making
their own choices."
And I said, "Yeah, well, that's...
that's not what we're doing."
And now, we've been proven
to be right,
because Sweden has the highest
fatality rate in Europe
of people who contract
the pandemic...the COVID virus.
So, you know,
I think going hard early
has been a success for Australia.
We're seeing what's really
a second wave, led by Victoria.
I don't think...
I agree with Terri -
I don't think
that'll be the end of it.
I think, you know, other states
are going to have similar problems
down the track.
And no-one wants to be
too judgemental about it.
We've been lucky,
and we've been well managed.
But, you know, we're certainly
not through it.
Shaun, you're a Victorian.
Yes!
Is it something that you actually
feel scared of, what's coming?
Well, we do a show on the ABC
called Mad As Hell.
And about halfway through
the season,
which was in about...
it was towards the end of March,
we...we lost our audience.
And we...we sort of continued on
for another six episodes,
and then had a break,
and things were looking up,
and we were assured that we would
have our audience back
and things would be back to normal.
And now we're about a month away
from coming back with Mad as Hell
and we don't have an audience again.
We're in no better position
than we were
when we ended
three to four months ago.
And I think Christopher's
probably right -
I suspect this is going to happen
until - or if - there's a...
..until there's a vaccine.
Yeah.
Assuming there is ever one.
Is there a sense in Victoria, though,
with suburbs being,
effectively, separated,
with housing blocks being separated,
that the community is actually
being divided over this?
Um, well, the Footscray area and...
I think there are four tower blocks,
maybe two lots of four tower blocks
in the Footscray area, which is not
very far away from where I live,
and I get the sense, anecdotally,
that everybody's actually
chipping in and helping.
So I get the other sense -
I get the sense that
communities aren't divided,
in fact, they're coming together
and being very supportive.
So...part of me wants to always
look for the positive
that comes out
of the COVID-19 crisis.
And I think, on a community level,
things are pretty good -
people are very willing
to help each other.
OK.
BUTLER: We're seeing that through
the volunteers for Foodbank as well
and FairShare, places like that,
that are actually getting together.
There's just been a really big surge
of people wanting to help.
But do you think that people who are
living in those apartment blocks
think that the community's
coming together
when they can't leave their
apartments or have anyone come in?
I mean, I can't...
I think it is heavy-handed.
I can't imagine walking
out of my house
and having police
standing there saying,
"Oh, sorry, Brooke, not today.
"And, also, no-one's allowed
to come and see you.
"Oh, it doesn't matter
what you've got inside -
"we'll try to make sure that
you've got the things that you need
"within the next 24 to 48 hours."
And, you know, there's an apartment
block across the road from them
that looks like a similar volume
of people with similar density.
And I understand from that,
from the figures,
there were 16 people out of the 127
who were diagnosed overnight.
That's...that's a lot.
And I think that, you know...
Is it the best solution
to have police there, guarding?
Or would it be more effective
to maybe have translators
or to have the COVIDSafe app
in different languages
and explain to people
from different language groups
the best way to manage
community transmission?
Well, maybe those subtleties
will come in time,
over the next five days.
'Cause, really, those tower blocks
are like giant docked cruise ships
at the moment.
Mm.
And each of them have got about
5,000 people living in them.
But how are they different
from other tower blocks?
Well, they're the ones, I think,
where they've found there's
a higher level of infections.
BUTLER: Mm.
Alright. Our next question tonight
is a video from Sue Kee
in Perth, in Western Australia.
This morning, a federal politician
sparked a backlash
as a result of comments made
about the residents
in the public housing estate
in inner North Melbourne.
What can be done immediately
to quash and quell any negativity
that has arisen as a result
of these comments?
And more particularly,
what can be done to ensure
that these residents are
readily provided with access
to daily necessities that are
appropriate to their needs?
So, the politician she's referring to
is Pauline Hanson.
She appeared on the Today show
this morning.
Among the things she said
was that...
.."The fact is, a lot of them" -
referring to the people
in the tower blocks -
"are drug addicts as well."
She said, "They're alcoholics.
"A lot of these people are from
non-English-speaking backgrounds,
"probably English
isn't their second language,
"who haven't adhered to the rules
of social distancing."
Brooke, how did you feel watching
that go out on your program today?
I felt completely heartbroken.
I grew up in Housing Commission.
And, to me, I was thinking about
all of those kids
sitting at home watching,
all of those people trapped in their
apartments, watching and thinking,
"This is what Australia
thinks of us.
"This is what the rest
of our country thinks -
"is that we're alcoholics
and drug addicts."
And that's disgusting.
And I'm all for free speech,
and I think that, you know, people,
when they have different
perspectives
and different opinions,
that most of the time it does help
drive argument forward or, you know,
debate forward or policy forward.
But when you use it
to...to vilify people,
or to be deliberately mean
and mean-spirited, it's...
That, to me, is disgusting.
But I suppose it's not surprising
that Pauline Hanson
said some of those things.
She's got a long record of saying
things that provoke outrage,
and, some would argue,
promote division.
She's been on your program,
and other breakfast programs,
for a very long time.
Why get rid of her now?
The Today show's said that
she's no longer coming back.
I think there is a very
big difference
between saying things
that you really, truly believe,
and are helpful in representing
your electorate...
And let's not forget
that she's elected.
And if you go and have a look
at some of the comments
that are around on the internet,
there are a lot of people
who support Pauline Hanson.
And those perspectives -
you know, they should be heard.
I mean, I don't agree
with a lot of them,
and they certainly don't match up
with my values,
but that doesn't mean
that their perspectives
are worth any less than mine
and that they shouldn't be heard
on platforms like the Today show
or Q+A or whatever.
But when they cross over to being
mean and...and causing division,
and vilifying
a whole group of people,
I think that's a whole other story.
And I think that that's
where we draw the line.
I think that's a bit of a cop-out.
I mean, she's been a public racist
since 1996.
She used her first maiden speech
to say that we were in danger
of being "swamped by Asians"
and she used her second
maiden speech
to say that we were in danger
of being "swamped by Muslims".
I mean, we're talking about
someone here
who didn't just wake up this morning
and for the first time ever
say something racist.
And shows have been platforming her.
And, you know,
free speech is one thing,
elevating racism
in the discourse is another.
And I think what we need
and what Labor has been calling for
for a long time
is an anti-racism campaign -
a national anti-racism campaign -
to try to deal with
some of the things
that we're hearing at the moment,
particularly
during the COVID pandemic.
It's pretty clear what we need.
Today show's not the only show
that has Pauline Hanson...
Quite right.
..on it regularly.
Sunrise had for a long time.
Mm.
Quite right.
So, it's... I mean...
And I think she was on this show.
..obviously, it builds ratings.
But that relationship fell apart
over the Christchurch attacks...
That's right.
..and an altercation
between the host
and Pauline Hanson then,
and that regular spot was resumed
pretty promptly on the Today program.
The Today show, yeah.
Do these programs, do you think,
just place the ratings
over productive public conversation?
Well, I think they do -
ratings is very much
the pre-eminent, um, priority
of those kinds of shows,
or most commercial television,
because they want to
sell advertising.
So Pauline Hanson
does very well for ratings,
'cause she'll say these kinds
of totally inappropriate things.
Racially profiling people in public
housing is absolutely disgraceful,
and such a thing of the past.
I mean, it kind of reminds you
of Oswald Mosley from the 1930s -
it's sort of bizarre.
But he wouldn't do it on television.
He wouldn't go to a TV show...
Well, he wouldn't have had
the chance!
He wouldn't have had the chance.
But I'm curious - I mean,
I appreciate you might not be...
..privy there in the moment,
but when Senator Hanson gets up
and speaks in the Senate,
is there much difference
in what she says
compared with what she says
on the television?
I don't know.
I haven't listened to
one of her speeches in the Senate,
nor read them.
Is it any more nuanced
in the Senate?
BUTLER: So... Well, neither...
I don't think she speaks
a lot in the Senate.
Christopher wasn't in the Senate
and I'm not in the Senate,
but I can...you know,
you see the sorts of things
that she does to get attention,
like wearing a burqa
into the chamber
to try to provoke division
amongst the Australian community.
Does she see herself, do you think,
as a delegate for the people
that she represents,
rather than a senator?
I think it's a business model.
I think it's all about her...
Frankly, I think it's about...
She's got a party built on a brand.
The brand is built
on her personality.
Her business model has worked.
I don't agree with that.
I think that Pauline Hanson
genuinely believes
the things that she says,
and she's been quite consistent
about it.
Consistently bad, right?
But she's been consistent about it.
But it can be both, Christopher.
As you pointed out...
It can be both.
..'96 to the second one.
Could be both - depends
on the people around her, but...
Yeah, depends on
what you're using it for.
I've been surprised, watching
Pauline Hanson over 20-odd years,
that her views
haven't changed very much.
And to go to your point, Shaun,
there's definitely a cadre of people
who believe and agree
with what Pauline says.
Mm.
And they've been the one party
from the non-Labor side of politics
that's been actually
quite electorally successful
in the last 20 years, One Nation.
But as a politician,
she has to be more
than just a voice
for the people she represents.
Well, of course. But...
She has to...
..it takes all kinds.
As politicians.
And it's down to the voters,
to be honest, Shaun, isn't it?
I mean...
Sorry?
Who puts her in the parliament?
The people who vote for her.
It's not just about one woman,
it's about what...what a big slice
of the community thinks.
And they'd be listening to
this conversation tonight, saying,
"That's exactly why we vote
for Pauline Hanson."
Mm. Exactly.
Because of those kinds of people,
like us, who say that they're not...
Go and have a look at the comments
on the internet - they support her.
This isn't...you know,
she hasn't put herself there.
No.
These people elected her.
They believe what she believes.
Quite easily elected her,
by the way.
Exactly. And...
She got two quotas
the year that she got elected.
There may be, you know, a certain
portion who are led along by her,
but a lot of them wholeheartedly
believe what she believes.
Can we be clear about this, though?
Are you happy to see her gone,
dumped, from the program?
I am so happy to see her gone.
You know, she says awful things
about Aboriginal people as well
that really upset me.
And, you know, it's not about
me being upset -
it's about...someone
intentionally being divisive.
And they're ill-informed -
they're just not true -
the things that she says.
And that's what's really upsetting,
because, as a journalist, you know,
you sort of try your very best
to make sure that
what you say is factual
and, you know,
even when you do give your opinion,
you don't say things
that aren't true.
Alright. Our next question
is from Sarah Mansour in the studio.
Thanks, Hamish.
I'm an Australian
of Egyptian background,
and I've personally been subject
to the application of stereotypes
based on my colour and my surname.
So, assumptions have been made
about my place of birth,
my nationality and my beliefs
before I even open my mouth.
And I don't appreciate those types
of assumptions being made.
However, I do appreciate
a good parody every now and then.
And the first... Although, I mean,
I'm not suggesting that we should be
publicising offensive content,
but the first question I have
for the panel is,
where do we draw the line between
what is healthy and comical parody,
and what is offensive and unhealthy?
And my second question is -
if we do start to over-censor
things, like shows on Netflix,
are we actually going to add
more to the problem
by further making invisible the fact
that these stereotypes do exist?
Shaun?
Mm!
Well, that's
a very interesting question.
I guess because it's not
available on Netflix
doesn't necessarily mean
it's censored,
'cause I suppose you can get
these shows -
you just have to look
a bit harder for them.
But it helps every now and again
to have a bit of an audit
of your inventory, I think -
whether it be Netflix
or, perhaps, even the ABC.
I know the ABC, in response
to the Black Lives Matter movement,
have decided to have a look
at its back catalogue
and make sure that
whatever's available on iview
has a sense
that somebody's looked at it
and applied some sort
of sensitivity to the selection.
We're obviously talking about
'cancel culture' -
a number of individuals have been
targeted and 'cancelled', as it were.
As a comedian that's been working
for decades,
do you look back and think through
what you've done and ask yourself,
"Have I done things
that are no longer acceptable?"
Yeah, yeah, certainly.
When the #MeToo movement
started to gain some traction,
I think a lot of people did an audit
and had a look at themselves
professionally and privately,
and certainly with
the Black Lives Matter movement,
I've wondered about that myself.
Because, obviously,
a lot of comedy shows
have come up for a bit of a hit,
and I certainly remember
John Cleese talking about
Fawlty Towers
with the 'Germans' episode,
and there was a racial slur
used by a character
in that particular episode.
And he pointed out that the BBC had,
I think,
as recently as the early '90s,
decided to snip
that particular reference anyway,
with his consent and approval.
And, indeed, when Cleese
came over here to Australia
to launch the stage version
of Fawlty Towers,
in which the 'Germans'
episode featured,
he decided to remove it.
So, I think, as long as
the creator's involved,
I think it's a good idea
to revisit things,
particularly
if they're still popular.
I know that if...
Well, Mad as Hell's been running
9, 10 years now,
and I think if the ABC decided
to make it all available on iview,
I would welcome the opportunity
to sit down with the ABC
and maybe just look at things
and see how they land now.
And stuff that's even older,
more so.
So I think it's a healthy thing.
Christopher Pyne, how do you feel
about cancelling artistic
pursuits from the past,
or even recent expressions of art,
or even statues?
Well, I think you've got to be...
have some common sense about it.
And I think that there was
an example recently
of Gone With The Wind
being edited, or cancelled,
because of the character
of Mammy, who was the slave.
But you can't actually make a movie
about the Civil War
in the United States
without having black slaves in it.
It doesn't actually mean
that you are parodying
black people as slaves.
It means it's a proper
historic record of what happened.
I think it was the way
she was portrayed, though.
The way she was portrayed...
Hattie McDonald's performance.
But that becomes very granular then,
you start to say, "I don't like
the way she was portrayed."
But there was also a whole movement
to cancel Gone With The Wind.
But I think that's different
and I would not cancel
Gone With The Wind
because I don't think you can make
a Civil War movie
without black slaves.
On the other hand,
I think the blackface
of some of the comedies that
have been taken off by the ABC...
You're talking about Chris Lilley?
Yes.
I think that's
the right thing to do,
because that's modern,
and it's completely unnecessary,
and it's clearly
racially profiling black people
in an inappropriate way,
and we should know better than that.
But then, you've written arguing
that a statue of the former
South Australian Premier...
Charles Cameron Kingston.
..Charles Kingston, should remain...
Of course.
..even though he was
a very vocal supporter
of the White Australia policy.
Well, everyone was, in the 1890s...
Mm.
..including most of the leaders
of the trade union movement.
So, are you making
a judgement call, then,
about what you think
is acceptable forms of racism?
No, my column said that..."Let's
be sensible about this argument."
I don't think we should have
a statue
of a slave trader in Bristol
on display.
But Charles Cameron Kingston
was the premier who brought in
votes for women in 1894,
and allowed women
to stand for parliament -
for the first parliament
in the world - in South Australia.
He led industrial relations reform
that supported
the rights of workers.
He was no right-wing racist.
Now, most people in the 1890s
were in favour
of the White Australia policy.
Some are still in favour of
the White Australia policy, sadly.
But he was no different
to all politicians of the time.
And that is not a reason
to remove his statue.
Whereas I don't think we should have
a statue of a slave trader
and I don't think we should have
a ranges called King Leopold Ranges.
I think it's all...
You just said
he was no right-wing racist.
Can you be certain that he wasn't
a racist, given that he was a...?
He could have been a racist,
but I meant
in the current way that we think
of racists being right-wing,
some of the people
in the British UKIP party, etc,
some of the things
that they've said.
He wasn't that kind of person.
His values of being in favour
of the White Australia policy...
I mean, Alfred Deakin was in favour
of the White Australia policy,
and the left hold him up
as a great doyen
of interference from government
in the economy.
And he was a liberal, of course, so
I support him very strongly, but...
So you have to actually make
a sensible historical call.
You can't just say,
"Anybody who was in favour
"of the White Australia policy,
let's remove their statues."
Brooke?
Look, I...
But it's different if they're
obviously a slave trader,
and Bristol's a different story.
I... Thank you
for your question, Sarah.
And, you know, I think
all of this 'cancel culture' stuff
is...it's happening at a really,
really difficult time for all of us.
There's so many massive questions.
I think what they ended up doing
with Gone With The Wind was
making a little film
at the start of it
that they showed
to provide context...
Right.
..and then they put it back up.
So, it was originally cancelled
by HBO Max.
Right. That's sensible.
That's sensible. And...
MICALLEF: Could you do that
with a statue?
You put another plaque
on the back or on the side?
Well, yeah, this is what I think.
I actually think you could do that.
You probably could.
Yeah.
Because I think that the problem
that I have with statues -
I mean, not that I walk around
Hyde Park and am offended by statues
that I see - I think it's
a massive distraction,
and I'll get to that in a minute.
But I think what would be
more helpful to people,
and to Aboriginal people,
is to have a more complete version
of history available.
And, you know, if we are going
to walk around and see statues,
then we'll say, you know,
"This person meant this at the time,
"and this is the context
that they existed in."
Well, I agree with that completely.
"But, you know, this is the impact
that those sorts of views had
"on women, or on Aboriginal people,
or on whoever, at the time."
And, you know, maybe if we are going
to have weird statues around
the place, we could put up some
statues of other heroes,
like Barangaroo or Bennelong.
I mean...
Or Pemulwuy.
Or Pemulwuy.
Bennelong was the first
Aboriginal man to speak English.
That's an incredible achievement.
Like, what an amazing intellect
that man must have had.
And I think that a lot of people
would go,
"Oh, Bennelong - that's where
the Opera House is,"
or, "that's some lovely restaurant,"
or whatever.
They wouldn't actually know
who Bennelong is.
And if we are going to have
these statues, then it's important
that we tell a more complete story
of our history.
(APPLAUSE)
I agree.
But...
..I also think that this debate
is incredibly frustrating,
because it's happening at a time
when we're talking about
young people dying.
Black people dying.
And, you know, the other day,
I woke up from a nap
and I saw on Twitter that
Ken Wyatt and the Prime Minister
were talking about having
an Indigenous incarceration
Close the Gap target of 2093.
And I thought, "How long
have I been napping for?!"
Like, "What is going on here?
This is ridiculous."
And so, you know,
I'm not offended by statues.
I'm a little bit offended by some
TV shows, but I don't really care.
I'm not offended by, you know,
Redskins or Chicos.
I mean, obviously, I would prefer
if they weren't there.
It's obviously awful
to walk into the supermarket
and see, like, a racial slur
written on some cheese and...
But I would much rather
that we're talking about things
that actually make a difference
in the lives of Aboriginal people.
Things like early childhood
education rates,
things like the, you know,
incarceration rates,
things like justice reinvestment,
that are actually helpful
and not just virtue signalling.
There are individuals, though,
sometimes in these cases,
that are impacted.
And we've been contacted
by Filipe Mahe and his wife.
Filipe was the individual that is
alleged to be the inspiration
for the Chris Lilley character
Jonah From Tonga.
They've written a question because
they've received so much backlash
in recent weeks over this
that they don't feel comfortable
to show their faces
on the program tonight.
But the question is,
"My husband, Filipe, had
the character Jonah From Tonga
"based on him when he was
at his most vulnerable.
"He's felt exploited for years.
"Why is it that most Australians feel
he should 'get over it',
"and how does Chris Lilley
and the ABC get away with this
"without an apology or explanation?"
Well, this is what I think
the big difference is.
When you were talking about John
Cleese talking about Fawlty Towers
and saying, "That was of a time
and place, and I regret it" -
edit it out, I don't care.
Chris Lilley, that same week when we
took all of those programs off air -
you know, people can still probably
find them in the nether regions
of the internet if they want to -
but he released an unedited clip or
some extra part of Jonah From Tonga,
even though this man had said,
"This really upsets me.
"I've lost a parent,
I've got dyslexia,
"and I used my culture to try to get
through those periods,
"which were incredibly tough, and
you've exploited that for comedy."
He goes and does that?
What was in the clip?
It was just another clip
from Jonah From Tonga or...
That wasn't in the original version?
That wasn't part of the show.
PYNE: That hadn't been publicised.
But he shared it on his personal
YouTube channel.
He hasn't come out and said,
"I'm sorry."
He hasn't come out and said,
"This is a learning moment for me."
And so I think that's disgusting.
What about the ABC, though?
Should the ABC apologise?
To Filipe?
I think that the producer
who worked on it
said that she felt really awful
at the time.
I don't want to tell the ABC
what they should and shouldn't do.
Shaun Micallef, is there
some responsibility here?
You said you would welcome
the opportunity
to go back through your material.
Should the ABC
be publicly reflecting on this?
Well, I can't speak for the ABC,
and I can't speak
for Chris either, I suppose,
but I can speak for...for myself.
And, look, if it was up to me, um...
..I would be ringing up and knocking
on the door at the ABC and saying,
"I'd like to participate
in dealing with the reaction
"to this situation."
I can't remember when Chris's show
was on air. Is it...? Was it...?
It hasn't been on air
for a few years now.
Was it as long ago as 2005, 2006?
Yeah, I guess so, probably.
But it surprises me
that that show...
About '07, I think.
..had that kind of humour
in the noughties and...the 2000s.
I mean, it's a bit unusual.
BUTLER: Quite.
I can imagine how, in the '60s,
they made shows, like,
that were racist about...in Britain
about people living next door
to each other.
Love Thy Neighbour, I think.
Love Thy Neighbour.
I was going to say that, but
I thought I might have got it wrong.
But in the 2000s?
I always thought...
I never really watched the show,
'cause it wasn't a humour
that I enjoyed,
but it did surprise me.
Alright.
Our next question tonight
is from Jasmine Poulikakos.
Thank you.
I'm a Year 12 student currently
undertaking a research project
for my society and culture
major work
around the role
of alcohol consumption
in shaping Australia's
national identity.
What role do you think
the advertisement of alcohol
in sports such as NRL or AFL
has in facilitating the acceptance
of alcohol consumption
as a part of our national identity?
And should there be restrictions
imposed on this type of advertising,
like those existing for smoking?
Shaun?
Well... That's a...
that's a very good question.
And inherent in that question
is the answer.
I think yes. I think that's the way.
That's going to be the way it goes,
I think.
You've been on a big journey
across Australia,
effectively investigating,
for a new documentary,
Australia's relationship with booze.
Yeah, 'cause I had no idea.
I mean, I...
Explain why.
Well, I...
My parents didn't drink,
and I didn't have my first drink
until I turned 18 and...
uh, and went to university
and felt that drinking just meant
that you had to get drunk,
otherwise there was no point to it.
So... And I wasn't
very good at it, you know -
three glasses of something
and, you know, I was obviously
very amusing and charming...
(LAUGHTER)
..or so I thought.
But I was quickly disabused
of that notion by my friends.
So I gave up and, uh...
..didn't really think about it
at all,
apart from that idea
of just giving it up.
There was a particular moment,
though,
that led you to give up,
wasn't there?
Well, yes, there...yes, there was.
And it was a cause
of great embarrassment to me.
It was after work,
and I'd had too much to drink -
way too much to drink.
And I wasn't a charming drunk
at all. I was just...a drunk.
And I was asleep, and
my then-fiancee and her mother,
and their poodle,
came to find me in that state,
and I was so ashamed that that was
what prompted me just to give it up.
Now, I'm not suggesting for a moment
it was a great struggle
for me to give up,
and I know there are a lot of people
who have struggles with alcohol
and they're far more deserving
of some applause
than me just giving up, but...
..fast-forward 25 years, and
my children are approaching the age
where they're going to be offered
alcohol,
and I really had no advice for them.
So I thought, "Why is it a thing?
Why do people drink at all?"
It seems like such a strange,
foreign country to me.
So I decided to...
..rather than
give my children advice,
I would actually go around
and make a documentary
and make them watch it.
(LAUGHTER)
And you went to, of all places,
a B&S ball. Let's take a look.
Everywhere I look,
B&S ball virgins who aren't me
are undergoing various
induction rituals,
which principally involve
downing as much alcohol
from as many receptacles as possible
in the shortest space of time.
Do you want to do one?
No, no. I couldn't, really.
Thank you, though.
How many standard drinks
would that be, I wonder?
About 1.1, 1.2.
In a shoe?
Yeah.
MAN: At a B&S, everyone
looks after their mates.
If my mate was drinking
and he was throwing up, mate,
I'd put him to bed.
Remember those days when we could
get together in a group
and enjoy ourselves, apparently?
But I wonder whether alcohol
may go the way of tobacco
in terms of, you know, pictures
of cirrhosed livers on labels
and things like that.
Because one of the big takeaways
for me,
as a result of making
this documentary,
and I wasn't aware of it -
maybe I was naive -
is that alcohol's
a class 1 carcinogen
and I wasn't aware of that.
It's pretty dangerous.
Terri, it's not just
the sporting codes,
it's governments as well,
that rely on dollars flowing in
from the alcohol companies.
Do you think we need to have a look
at the structures around this,
the things that are leading
so many of us to drink to excess?
Well, it's something that the
Australian Institute of Health and
Wellbeing...Welfare has looked at,
and particularly recently, given
the COVID lockdown, isolation,
social distancing
that everyone's been through,
there's some evidence there
has been a spike in alcohol use.
And that's not really surprising
when you look at
what are the risk factors
for people to drink more.
For women, it's people who...
For women, it's having
childcare responsibilities,
for men, it's the loss of a job,
and for everyone, it's stress.
And that pretty much describes
the most recent several months
we've just been through.
So, it's not surprising
that there has been an increase
in drinking in some households.
The conservative estimates say
about 20% of households
have had more alcohol use.
So, I think that
there is, right now,
in the context of
the COVID recovery -
hopefully, there'll be
a COVID recovery pretty soon...
We all have talked already tonight
about how difficult is it
to look into a crystal ball
and see what happens with COVID,
but in the context
of coming out of it,
I think we do need to think
about what that has meant for us,
the additional reliance on alcohol
through that period,
but come to grips more broadly with
our drinking culture that we have.
And I'm looking forward
to seeing the documentary
to see a bit more about it.
Politics is pretty boozy, though,
isn't it, Christopher Pyne?
Yes, it is.
And I'm not a teetotaller,
and nor am I a wowser.
And I actually enjoy alcohol,
but I enjoy it with meals,
I enjoy it with eating.
I think it really...
At book launches...
I know your book launch event in
Canberra is called Wine With Pyne.
Wine With Pyne!
A mixer with the fixer.
For The Insider.
(LAUGHTER)
On Tuesday night...
Tomorrow night, Annabel Crabb and I
are launching The Insider
in Canberra - that's correct -
with the
Canberra Writers' Festival.
So, I think alcohol
should be enjoyed.
I think it should be enjoyed with
meals, in restaurants and cafes...
Are we too dependent on it,
though, as a society?
I think the problem with alcohol is
when you, you know, drink it
to ridiculous excess.
I haven't seen any statistics
that suggest
that alcoholism is worse
in Australia more recently
than the last,
you know, several decades.
We are a high-alcohol-consumption
country.
I think Germany is higher.
And obviously, you'll find
if you travel to things like B&Ss,
you're going to find a lot of people
drinking totally inappropriately.
Well, per head, since the '70s,
it's gone down.
Is it?
But oddly enough,
per head for women, it's gone up.
Is that right?
Yeah.
And during COVID, I think
26% of Australians said
they've upped their intake
by more than five drinks a week,
which is a pretty significant amount.
I wonder if it was...
if it wasn't as accessible...
Because you can, obviously,
get your boxes delivered now,
and there's no human interaction,
whereas, maybe, as recently
as five or six years ago,
you would actually have to
pop down to the shop
and physically present yourself...
And I think people
were busier before COVID.
Like, you know, if I was at work
and I'm driving home at 5:00,
and I get home at 6:00
or whatever it might be,
you're not drinking
until 6...6:30, 7:00.
Being at home for COVID,
my wife and I would have a drink
late in the afternoon at 5:30
or 5:00 or 6:00, when we wouldn't
normally have ever done that before.
What would you have?
Gin and tonic.
Gin and tonic?
With lemon and lime.
(LAUGHTER)
Which is my favourite drink.
A lot of women are drinking wine
to get through it.
People who've got kids,
you know, been homeschooling,
so the kids have been at home,
they've been trying to work out
how to do that.
They've had the stress of whether
the household income is going
to drop, or it already has dropped
for a lot of people.
Sure.
I think you're right
about the time...
So people are relying...
Time can get a bit muddy too.
Because, you know,
there are times when I...
"Is today Saturday? Is today
Thursday?" But just time...
I don't think we should be judgy
about it. And I think...
You know, I don't think that we'll
end up with alcohol being treated
the way...same way
as cigarettes and tobacco.
Because you can have...
Why?
'Cause you can have
one or two glasses of wine
and not actually damage your health,
but you can't smoke
without damaging your health, so...
Well, when we...
But I think that's the evidence
for alcohol now, isn't it?
That there's no real benefit
to drinking, that it is only...
Well, it is if you like drinking a
glass of white wine with your meal,
like with your schnitzel.
Chardy with some ice in it?
There are some new guidelines...
Sounds gorgeous right now.
It's very stressful
talking about this.
There are some new guidelines...
Or a glass of red with a steak.
I mean, I do. I'm so sorry
about it, but I do. (LAUGHS)
It's fine. No-one's being judgy.
But there are new guidelines
that are due to come out,
and we need to see them.
I'm going to go out and wear
a hair shirt after tonight
now that I know
how wicked I've been...
I think it's funny...
..for enjoying a glass of red wine!
When we were talking about COVID
and how stressful it is,
I think when it started,
I was thinking, like,
"I'm going to do yoga every day.
I'm going to go for a walk.
"I'm going to be so hot."
I lost 7kg during COVID.
Yeah. But then you get to
week three, and you're so bored
and it's 5:00, so you just go to
the fridge and have a glass of wine.
Do you know what I did?
The first month...
BUTLER: I wasn't bored.
I looked like a Teletubby
after the first month,
'cause I kept going to the kitchen
and constantly eating.
Yep. Yes.
Yeah.
And if I'd put a onesie on,
I would have looked like
one of those Teletubbies.
So, I thought,
"This has got to stop!"
What do you mean...
And I stopped!
What do you mean
"if" you put a onesie on?
(LAUGHTER)
Terri's point...
Terri's point's interesting,
'cause when we were making
the documentary,
there was some debate about
the silhouette of the pregnant woman
on the back of a wine bottle.
And I think that exists now,
but there was some question
as to whether there should be text.
BONEY AND BUTLER: Mm.
And the alcohol industry was
reluctant to agree to the text
saying, "Warning..."
But I think there should be for
pregnant women text, a warning.
Definitely.
Yeah, that's right.
But I think the worry was
that the text would take up
more of the label,
and obviously the label is a very,
very important thing on a wine
bottle, because it evokes...
And unborn children aren't!
What's that?
And unborn children aren't, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
So I'm not sure what the result
of that particular to-and-fro was.
Well, I don't know what the outcome
of the labelling issue is,
but the general question
of what is safe drinking
is actually under investigation
at the moment.
The National Health
and Medical Research Council -
which you're well aware of,
of course - had some guidelines
put out for consultation, and
they're expected to be finalised.
So what we actually need,
I think, right now,
is for the current government
to crack the whip on that
and make sure that people do have
the most up-to-date information,
particularly when I think
it's pretty clear
that drinking has become
a bit more prevalent.
I agree.
It's not judgy, it's not about...
I was the...
.."How dare you have a drink,"
wagging a finger.
I was the Parliamentary
Secretary for Health
with responsibility for alcohol,
drugs and tobacco.
Mm.
And so I was quite across
this alcohol issue
when they put the pregnant women
picture on the labels.
In fact, I put
the hideous photographs
on cigarette packets, right?
So, I think people should have
as much information as possible
about what they're doing
and obviously want
to discourage everybody
from problem drinking, no...clearly.
But I also don't think we want
to start a campaign against alcohol
as though it's somehow
inherently evil.
But for pregnant women
it's obviously something
they shouldn't be encouraged
to be drinking alcohol,
and there should be
proper warnings on the bottle.
And there should be
an education campaign.
There should be an education...
A lot of people I spoke to
when making the documentary
didn't know about the link between
breast cancer and...and drinking.
And remember, in the...
I mean, in the '50s and '60s,
and '70s, when we were young...
Yes.
We went to univers...
we went to university...
I just want to inform everybody that
they went to the same university,
and there was overlap, I believe.
There was, by a year. That's right.
But women used to smoke
while they were pregnant
without even thinking twice
about it.
Without even
thinking twice about it.
And, look, happily,
we've now managed
to get education to the point
where I don't think you hardly ever
see pregnant women smoking.
But there is a...
But in our youth,
they were smoking like trains!
There is a big difference, though,
because smoking cigarettes -
I mean, you might get addicted
to nicotine,
but each succeeding cigarette
doesn't muddy your brain
in the way that alcohol does.
I mean, you might...
It's not very good for your foetus.
Well, it's not very good
for your foetus.
But you might promise yourself,
"I'll only have three drinks."
But each succeeding drink
makes that promise less likely,
you are less likely to stick to it.
It kind of takes away your reason
a little bit.
Unlike tobacco.
Smoking.
Yeah. So, you have to approach it
a bit differently, don't you?
We're going to move on because lots
of people are telling us on Twitter
they're doing Dry July and would like
us to discuss something else!
(LAUGHTER)
So, our next question is from...
We're making them thirsty, are we,
Hamish?
I like Oct-sober!
We're driving them all to the drink!
You lot are always making them
thirsty, I'm sure.
Meredith Williams
is in the studio audience.
My question is for Shaun -
now that Mathias Cormann
has announced
he will leave parliament
before the end of the year,
what will become of Darius Horsham,
and do you think he may stay on
as the spokesborg
for the next Finance Minister?
We are, of course, talking about one
of the characters from Mad As Hell.
It's not a real person, yes.
Lovely question, Meredith.
(LAUGHTER)
I'm hopeful...
In fact, Christopher,
you might be able to...
That is Darius Horsham
and, as you can see,
he bears no relationship at all
to Senator Cormann,
although a good friend of yours,
Christopher,
and I'm wondering what...
Who's that?
Mathias Cormann.
Oh, Mathias! Oh, definitely.
Yeah, I thought you were going to
say there's a good friend of mine.
I thought, "There's another one?!"
(LAUGHTER)
But there's no reason why Darius
can't hang around, I think,
as a political commentator,
even though Senator Cormann always
claimed never to be a commentator.
Do you still have that small statue
of me on your...
No, it's not you.
I've told you this before.
Christopher Pyne is under
the impression
that the wobble...the bobblehead
of Scott Morrison
that's on my desk
on Mad As Hell is him.
A lot of people think it's me.
Well, I don't know if a lot
of people... I think it's just you.
(LAUGHTER)
I think you're projecting.
You are represented in the show.
Have you ever seen the show?
No, I've actually never watched
your show,
but lots of people have told me
why does...
(LAUGHTER)
I don't watch a lot of television!
So now that I've retired
from politics,
I keep laughing at ads on the
television between MasterChef.
I didn't know there'd been
14 series of MasterChef!
I'm completely obsessed with it.
And I watch these ads and I burst
out laughing and the children say,
"What's so funny?"
I say, "That ad's hilarious."
They say, "That ad's been
on television for five years!"
"No! It's so clever!"
Well, why did you think you had
a wobblehead on the desk
if you've never watched it?
Because friends of mine and yours,
mutual friends, have sent me texts
saying, "Why does Shaun have that
effigy of you on his panel?"
It's taunting you.
It's taunting me.
I think... Like Christopher,
I think there's no reason
why Christopher's avatar
on the show,
and Mathias Cormann's avatar
on the show,
can't continue,
I'd like to think.
And it was also very nice
of Senator Cormann
to wait until mid-October,
or maybe the first week of October,
which is when we finish,
so we could still...
Give your next season a run?
Yeah, in fact, I'm hopeful
that he can come on
and say goodbye to Darius.
You do write a fair bit
about Mathias Cormann
and his role in the downfall
of Malcolm Turnbull.
Do you think ultimately
that was the end of the game
for Mathias Cormann in politics?
It's a good question.
So, Mathias and I
are very good friends,
despite the fact that Mathias is
much more conservative than I am,
but that's alright.
In politics, that's what it's like.
And I do write a lot about Mathias
in the book - The Insider...
You've got your plug in!
(LAUGHTER)
I have to. The publishers told me
I have to mention it
as often as I can.
Well, you're done. You're done.
What's it called again?
The Insider.
No more!
Fascinating.
Published by Hachette, Australia.
And... Because he was the reason
about my theory
about the solar system
'cause I described it to him
at the Commonwealth Club,
you know, that the sun is the leader
and that the people
orbit around the leader,
and that the week Peter Dutton
came out of his orbit
and kind of knocked all the planets
about a bit.
And that Mathias and I
were quite happy
because we kind of knew
where we were in the solar system.
Where were you?
I was one of the planets
orbiting around the sun,
the sun being Malcolm, of course.
And by the time Malcolm
was the leader,
I was Mercury, as opposed to Pluto,
which I had been
in the Howard government.
(LAUGHTER)
So, you can move closer to the sun.
And, um...but I do think that was
a very traumatic week
for a lot of people -
Julie Bishop, Malcolm, me,
Mathias - because Mathias is
an inherently very loyal person.
You have this story, though,
about you and Mathias
trying to get a hold of each other
during that week.
We did, on the Wednesday, we spent
a lot of time trying to do that
and we didn't,
which was very surprising.
'Cause I was trying to find out
whether he had changed his mind
about Malcolm
and he was trying to tell me
that I should change my mind
about Malcolm.
Were you avoiding each other,
actually?
No, we were just texting.
It was a very...
When you've gone
through one of these,
and Terri's been through a few
in the Labor Party...
BUTLER: I have not.
And when you've been through
a couple in the Liberal Party,
it's a very fast-moving game.
What if you'd spoken to him,
do you think?
Do you think the outcome
would have been different?
I don't know, actually.
That's a question I pose
in the book - The Insider...
(LAUGHTER)
I mean...
Listen, you'll be marched off here in
a second if you say its name again!
That's the whole idea...
I feel like Shaun should have a go
of saying his documentary name now.
It is slightly implausible that,
given the stakes
and given the central role that both
of you were playing at that time...
That we couldn't get hold
of each other?
That you couldn't get hold
of each other.
I know but it's true
because I was actually...
I missed him several times
on the phone, texting, WhatsApp...
I'm very firmly of the view
that Mathias believed
that he was acting in the best
interests of the Liberal Party,
that he believed that Malcolm
couldn't win the next election,
and he made an assessment
that Peter Dutton would,
which I think was wrong,
and that's why I didn't support
Peter Dutton.
I supported Scott Morrison
and the rest, of course, is history.
But I think he's
an inherently loyal person
and a very good finance minister.
I think it'll be a real loss
to the Liberal Party in government.
But, you know,
everyone has the right to choose
when they want to leave, and I did,
and he did, and good luck to him.
Alright. The next question tonight
is from Natasha Balderston.
Thank you, Hamish.
It seems like ministers
in each political party
are fully supportive of their party
and its decisions
while being a minister,
but have quite salacious things
to say
once they're no longer
in the position.
Do you think it's fair
to the Australian public
to be manipulated and lied to
for the benefit of the party
and, if so, what is the purpose
of detailing the 'truth'
when politicians
leave their position?
Terri Butler.
Well, I mean, I wrote a book while
I was still in the parliament and...
I'm sure you're saving
your best stuff until later!
When I did that...
MICALLEF: What's it called, Terri?
No, no, no...
(LAUGHTER)
I'm not going
to be a Christopher Pyne!
Never mind.
That was your big chance.
I guess, for me,
the idea is to try to be
as open about politics as possible.
And I'm really quite interested
in demystifying politics for people.
Because I think one of the great...
..the really big problems
that we have right now
is a lack of trust in politics
and democratic institutions.
And so sort of speaking
out of both sides of your mouth,
or being a bit two-faced -
that really undermines people's
confidence in our democracy,
which undermines people's confidence
in, really, everything.
That's the bedrock, right?
So I really think it's important
that we try to be as open
about politics as possible,
and as transparent as we can be.
And that's one of the reasons
why I want to see a national
integrity commission established.
It's one of the reasons
why I think we need a prime minister
that will actually uphold
ministerial standards.
All of those things are about
starting to restore confidence
in democracy.
So you won't see from me,
after politics,
a different version of politics
than you saw from me during it.
And I think
that it's a good approach to take.
What happens, though,
when you are asked to say something
or hold a line, carry a line,
deliver a line,
that's not really what you believe?
Well, I've got to say, I find that,
through my time in politics -
and the reason I said, Christopher,
that I hadn't been through
any leadership challenges
like the ones you have is, because,
of course, I came in after Kevin.
Of course. You did.
You took his seat.
I did. Well, I didn't take his seat.
No.
I stood for a by-election
after he left the parliament.
And so my time there
has been really a great time
to be part of the Labor Party.
And I'm in the party
because my values really align.
And, of course,
it's a mass movement,
there's thousands of people
in the Labor Party,
the views and positions
that we take are an aggregation
of so many different perspectives
and views and opinions.
We're not... Like, if you're after
a kind of homogeneous echo chamber,
that's not the Labor Party.
So, yes, there is definitely times
where we are coming to positions
that we've reached
through really big
democratic processes
involving thousands of people.
And part of being part of a caucus
is you argue your case,
you advocate, and then you accept
the views of the majority.
Is it easy for you to go out and say
everything you think and believe
about the problems
with the factional system
and branch-stacking
and all of those terrible things
that go on in your party?
I absolutely think it is.
And I have done that.
You know, I've talked
about the factional system,
again, in my book -
which I won't plug...
I really want to know
the name of it now!
I don't want to know the name
of any more books tonight, please!
But, you know, I think it is
important to talk about that.
But also to debunk
some of the mythology.
You know, like, take, for example,
branch-stacking.
In my state, Queensland,
we rooted that out
in the late '90s/early 2000s.
and I was a big part of that.
That was...you know, I was
a bit younger at the time,
but one of the things
that really galvanised me
to be in the Labor Party
was wanting to clean it up.
And we had, you know,
quite a similar situation
to what Victoria's
going through now.
And what you saw is that,
when you cleaned it up,
when you made the party work well,
when it became more democratic,
what happened?
Well, Peter Beattie was returned
in a landslide.
So, yes, of course,
in any big mass movement,
there'll be problems.
But like with anything -
any problem -
the real measure of someone
is how you respond to it,
not hoping that it wasn't there
in the first place.
Can I ask you something, then? So,
when something like that happens -
and, Christopher, you can
probably answer this as well -
that does undermine the trust
that the general public has
in people in your profession, like,
what do you say to your colleagues,
to your mates, who, you know,
perhaps are doing it,
or perhaps are mates with the people
who are doing it?
Well, I think, like anything...
I mean, I was a lawyer
before I was in politics, right?
And so we have really...
It was a great profession but
there were always some bad apples.
Some people who were dodgy,
they would try to
take advantage of clients.
And so the way to deal with that
is to be really firm, to be ethical,
and to make sure that you have the
structures there to pick them up.
That's why I say, for politics,
for example,
you want to have
a national integrity commission.
You want to have...
People in the public
need to be confident
that the prime minister of the day
will uphold
the ministerial standards
really, really rigorously,
not try to find ways
to avoid them applying.
But surely, on a personal level,
you're just like,
"Can you just pull your head in?
"Because you're making us
all look bad."
Yeah, of course.
And you've seen that.
That's one of the things
I say in the book -
that it always shocked me,
that despite the fact
that my colleagues knew
that you weren't supposed
to leak from the party room,
they would literally sit
in the party room -
well, some people,
some people, I should say -
would sit in the party room
and, during the meeting,
text what was happening
to journalists,
knowing that it was
completely verboten!
Who did that?
Well, I don't know...
I wouldn't say their names.
But it had to happen,
because Sky was reporting things
that were going on in the party room
while we were still in the room.
And people used to hold up
their phones and say,
"Sky's just reported
what such-and-such said."
I used to think, "How could they be
so blatant and brazen?!"
What advantage is there in that,
though?
I don't know.
They obviously wanted to undermine
whoever the leader was at the time,
I suppose.
And that's the reason for my book.
My book isn't about salacious,
you know, lies and stuff.
It's because that 12 years
that I was in the leadership group,
from 2007 to 2019, was a really
crazy period in Australian politics.
We saw half a dozen prime ministers,
after the stability
of the Howard period,
which was 11 and a half years.
And I thought that sort of needed
to be explained from my perspective.
Alright. Our next question tonight
is from Marika Kontellis.
Yeah, thanks. The Prime Minister -
speaking of prime ministers -
Scott Morrison,
has warned Australia
needs to prepare
for a "post-COVID world
"that's poorer,
and it's more dangerous,
"and more disorderly".
Do you think that's true?
What dangers is the Prime Minister
talking about?
And where is it going
to be "more disorderly"?
Putting Scott Morrison's warning
in the context
of the recent
defence spending announcement,
I'm getting the feeling
that the Prime Minister
is preparing us for war.
I hope you can tell me I'm wrong.
Terri Butler.
Well, look, those were
very confronting words, I think,
from the Prime Minister.
And I think, at the moment,
when we're facing some pretty
spectacularly difficult problems...
I mean, of course there is
a lot of change in the region
and in the world -
the power dynamics are shifting
between nations.
We've got the United States,
which I think a lot of countries
would like to see, once again,
return to playing a bit more
of an active and consistent role
in world affairs.
We've got different countries
rising in terms of their power
and their wealth.
All of those things, I think,
are important.
At the same time,
we've also got this global pandemic,
which is creating incredible anxiety
across the world.
And, of course, there's always
the spectre of climate change.
I don't know if that's
what Scott Morrison's referring to,
but it's certainly on my mind
in terms of major risks
facing the planet.
So, with all of those risks
and uncertainties arising,
I think there could be a temptation
for people to slip into pessimism
and despondency about our future.
I don't think
that's the right thing to do.
I think that the best approach
is to maintain...
I've got a friend
who used to be a...
He was involved in the UN
as a peace negotiator in Cambodia.
And he used to say to me, "You want
to adopt strategic optimism."
As in, not be a Pollyanna
about things
but, actually,
as a strategic posture,
believe that things can be better.
And I think we have to
have some strategic optimism
in the face
of all these uncertainties -
that's really important.
The Prime Minister, though,
compared this point in time
to the 1930s and '40s - he said,
"We've not seen the conflation
of global economic
"and strategic uncertainty
now being experienced in our region
"since the existential threat
we faced
"when the global and regional order
collapsed back then."
Christopher Pyne,
is that overdoing it somewhat?
No, I think he's saying
that in the 1930s,
we had the Great Depression,
and then we had the militarisation
throughout the '30s in places
like Germany and Japan,
and our response then
was to focus on the economy
and to try and get us
out of the Depression.
So what's he comparing
to the rise of Nazism?
Uh, the uncertainty...
Well, I think there's two things
about the '30s.
One is the economic aspect of it -
the Great Depression,
which is now the pandemic
that we have,
which is obviously smashing
the economy.
And two - when that happens,
in the '30s,
the Australian government
decided to focus on the economy
and reduced our spending
to 1.5% of GDP in defence.
And we are not going to do that
because we face
a very unstable Indo-Pacific.
I mean, there's just
no getting away from it.
And that statement
they made last week,
the Force Posture Plan...
the Force Structure Plan
and the Defence Update,
the difference between 2016,
when the White Paper was delivered
when I was in the portfolio,
and today, is the acknowledgement
that, five years ago,
we were more stable
than we are today,
there are more disputes
than there were then,
there's less international cohesion
than there was then.
And the rivalry
between the United States -
which could have gone
in a positive direction -
has not gone
in a positive direction.
It's in a negative direction,
and it's very raw,
as opposed to pacific.
Did you underestimate
the amount of change
that was going to occur
under a Trump administration
in the United States, and what that
would do for Australia...
No, I don't think so.
..strategically?
No, I think everybody,
when President Trump got elected,
wanted him to do...
wanted him to succeed.
I think they hoped that
the division and discord
that is his political
stock-in-trade
in order to win the election
was a campaigning tool,
and that that would give way
to sensible, calm government.
And we've all been disappointed
that that hasn't been the case.
OK. Our next question tonight
is a video
from Jenny Gamble
in Holland Park, Queensland.
While still defence minister,
Christopher Pyne met with EY Defence
to discuss
his post-political career.
Nine days after leaving politics,
he joined EY as a consultant.
How is this ethical?
And why does Christopher Pyne think
that this meets community standards
for appropriate behaviour?
So, you didn't breach
ministerial rules in this role,
but this is a question
about the ethics of it.
How is it ethical
to walk out of politics
into a job that's so clearly linked
to the ministerial position you had?
Well, Jenny Gamble's not right.
I mean, I met with dozens
and dozens and dozens of people
as the Minister for Defence
over many months
and Minister for Defence Industry.
I didn't discuss with EY
the idea of working for them at all
when I was the Minister for Defence.
And, um...
I'm not...
I'm actually not a consultant at EY,
which is one of these
great media misnomers
that's been created! (LAUGHS)
What do you do?
EY is a client of my firm.
I'm not a consultant at EY.
But, you know,
rather than bother to explain that
when nobody wanted to hear it
a year ago, I just let that go.
You consult for them, though?
Well, I'm...
And so what? You know?
You're a consultant...
No, no. I'm just saying,
you are a consultant...
Well, they're a client of mine.
You can see where the confusion
might have come from.
And there was
a Senate inquiry into this
which found absolutely no wrongdoing
on my part.
None whatsoever.
But it's a question...
Her question is about ethics,
not whether you breached the rules.
Jenny Gamble's view of what I did -
she doesn't like it.
That's fine, it's a democracy.
She's perfectly entitled to be...
to have her view.
My view is that there's
a Ministerial Code of Conduct,
it has two arms -
one of those arms is that
I'm not allowed to lobby anybody
in the Department of Defence,
the Minister for Defence,
their officers,
for 12...18 months after I retire.
And I have completely complied
with that.
And I'm not allowed
to use information
that became available to me
as the Minister for Defence
for commercial gain,
and I've entirely abided by that.
And the Senate inquiry found that.
Mm.
But EY's press release said
that it was ramping up
its defence capability
ahead of this surge in activity,
that it wanted to be able
to be involved
in the $200 billion spend
over 10 years.
"And we've engaged Christopher Pyne
to assist with this."
So, what do you help them with?
Well, the thing about being
a politician for 26 years,
and being a minister for, um...
..six plus Minister for Ageing
in the Howard government,
is that you actually get
a pretty good idea
of how government works.
Whether it's defence
or any other part of government.
And it's that knowledge
of the way government thinks
that anybody,
when they leave politics,
would find it useful
for firms in business.
There's nothing unethical
about doing that.
And you can't actually,
when you stop
being a member of parliament,
sort of expunge your experience
of the last 26 years.
And nor would you want to,
because it's actually quite a
valuable capability in the economy -
is knowing how government works,
and using those skills.
Terri Butler, you talked
about the importance of trust
in politics and politicians.
It's not...this is not something that
just happens on one side of politics.
Mike Kelly,
who's just left in Eden-Monaro,
said he was leaving
due to ill health,
and then walks into another job
with a military contractor...
Although we've been
in opposition for seven years,
it's not as though
he was in government
and then walked out
into a defence job.
Sure, but he didn't mention anything
about it when he said he was leaving,
and there was going to be
a by-election.
No, and you would also be aware
that he's had
significant health problems,
and that
that was what motivated him.
And, look, parliament is...
You know, it's pretty rough
on the old constitution, parliament,
let's be honest...
But do you see why this sort of thing
does diminish...
But to answer
your actual question...
..the trust
that you're talking about?
Look, the Senate inquiry
that Christopher is talking about
was really critical of the way
that the government had investigated
both Christopher's issue
and also former minister
Julie Bishop's
post-government employment as well.
It said, "Look, you didn't
take it seriously enough..."
The investigation - so-called -
was really just a phone call
to each of Julie Bishop
and Christopher Pyne,
there wasn't enough investigating
with the firms
that they were going to go
and do work for.
And, yes, I do think
that that undermines trust.
I do think it does.
And, you know,
I don't want to talk
about Christopher's particular case,
or any particular case.
I think it's incumbent on all of us
to think about community standards.
At the same time,
it's incumbent on the community
to decide what they want
from politicians.
They want ethical behaviour,
they want for there
not to be a revolving door
between government
and the private sector
in ways that give rise
to conflicts of interest.
But they also don't want to give
ex-politicians a pension for life.
So you're either going
to have one of three things happen -
either people are going to stick
around way past their sell-by date,
or you're going
to have to give them a pension,
or they're going
to have to get a job.
And if they're going
to have to get a job,
then the rules need to be
very clear as well.
Do you think it's ethical, Brooke?
I think it's really difficult.
And I think it's, you know,
difficult at the best of times
to attract really
excellent candidates into these jobs
where they could go into other roles
and be paid a lot more,
be criticised a lot less,
and spend more time
with their families.
And so I do think that there
needs to be very clear rules
around what can and can't happen
when people leave.
But I also know
from my time in Canberra
that they work incredibly hard,
and that they're really difficult
and thankless jobs.
So, I do,
I feel bad for pollies sometimes,
because you feel
like they get beat up on this side
and then beat up on that side.
You know, I think I'm getting
a little bit off-topic there,
and I do think that there do...
there does need
to be clear lines
and clear rules about it.
But I also think that,
if people want a higher standard
from their politicians,
then they can demand it.
You know, be more engaged
in the process.
And ask more of them.
Because, you know,
they're working for us.
OK. Our next question tonight
is a video from Scott McClarty
in Adelaide.
Satirical platforms like Mad As Hell
and The Betoota Advocate
are booming in popularity.
But on a more serious level,
their 'reporting' seems
to be more accurate
to what everyday people
are thinking.
Examples are Shaun listing all the
things Stuart Robert has stuffed up
in his time as MP.
(TERRI BUTLER LAUGHS)
Or The Betoota Advocate suggesting
the Sportsbet app was euthanised
behind a green fence
when it failed on Melbourne Cup Day.
They're accurate, funny, cutting,
and truly depressing.
My question is -
how have we got here?
Is it life imitating art?
And do those targeted really care?
Shaun, we're running way over time,
so if you can keep it brief, please!
Um, look, I don't...
It's very flattering
to be thought of in those terms,
but I only know
what I read in the newspaper
and see on programs like this.
So, I don't have
any special insight.
All we try and do is present
as much information as possible
in as fewer words
to set up the joke, essentially.
And it was very easy
with Stuart Robert.
I think we just...we did
a cut-and-paste from the newspaper
and just read it out.
(BONEY LAUGHS)
Do you miss Christopher Pyne?
Well, you know, the thing is -
and I hope this is felt
from Terri and Christopher -
is that
there's never anything personal.
I mean, I don't know
Terri and Christopher.
There's never anything personal
in the show.
And to us, you guys are
very entertaining public figures.
(LAUGHTER)
BONEY: What does that mean?
I don't have a bobblehead
on the show,
so I'm not as entertaining as him.
I never take anything personally.
I think that's a bit of a problem,
actually.
(LAUGHTER)
Come on, you said in your book
that you took it personally
when Julia Gillard went for you.
You took that very personally.
No, I just determined
that I was going to make her
pay for it at some point.
OK.
(LAUGHS LOUDLY) Slightly different.
So I took the Building
the Education Revolution apart
to the point where she didn't
even mention it
in her re-election speech,
which I thought was quite a success,
'cause it was $16.5 million.
But every school in my electorate
has a new library,
and they love them.
Great.
Then why didn't she mention it
in her election campaign?
They love them. It's a shame.
Brooke, final word to you.
Umm... What were we talking about?
Betoota and Mad As Hell,
that's right.
I think that it's really difficult
to see mainstream media
always blamed
for not delivering news content
to people that they want.
You know, we get
sort of minute-by-minute breakdowns,
we get ratings, we deliver the
sort of content that people demand.
And so, if you want
more excellent content,
then vote with your feet -
buy newspapers.
And, you know,
watch the shows that appeal to you.
And then there'll be more
of them made.
You know, this isn't
some sort of secret ploy
to, um, you know...for news quality
to suffer or something like that.
You know, people get what they want.
OK.
That's all we've got time
for tonight.
A huge thanks to our panel -
Shaun Micallef, Terri Butler,
Christopher Pyne...
Don't say the name of your book!
..and Brooke Boney.
Would you please thank them all?
(APPLAUSE)
Thanks, as well,
to those of you here in the studio.
It's great to have some of you back.
Thanks to you at home
for sending in your questions.
Next week on Q+A, a special,
a one-on-one with our former
prime minister Julia Gillard.
Don't miss it. Goodnight.
Captions by Red Bee Media
Copyright Australian
Broadcasting Corporation
