(Music) Fady - Hi, this is Disabilities Saves the World
with Fady Shanouda. I am Fady
Shanouda. This podcast brings you
insights from leading experts in
disability and mad studies from around
the world. You'll hear about the research
and work of disabled artists, scholars,
activists, and our allies. You'll also get
some insight into their lives, their
favourite non-DS activities, their
hobbies, and the adventures they've taken.
Most importantly you'll hear how they
think disability can save the world.
My name again is Fady Shanouda (he/him) pronouns.
I have a Ph.D. in Public Health
Sciences.
I am a postdoc in London in the UK, and I
identify as a fat, disabled cis-man of
colour. If you don't know me hopefully
you'll get to know me a little bit more
over the course of the next few episodes.
So today we're joined by Danielle Landry.
Danielle's a Ph.D. candidate in the
Graduate Department of Sociology at York
University in Toronto, Ontario.
Danielle recently designed and delivered
the first course in Disability Studies
at Centennial College in Scarborough. I'm
so excited to speak with her today about
her research (Danielle - 
 - How are disabled people
already doing this right? What can we
learn from that?) Fady - Her life outside of
academia. (Danielle - Like if I met them, I would just
be my dorky old self and I wouldn't
even know). Fady - 
And ask her, of course, how she thinks
disability can save the world. 
Fady - Hi Danielle thank you for coming on the
show today.
Danielle - Hey. Fady - So we'll start off by right away
jumping into what I call segment one
which is inside the project/research/work/art.
I want to start off by
asking why DS or why mad studies, in this
case as I know you're a prominent mad
studies scholar. So why those fields of
study? Danielle - Well, as someone who is mad identified and has been
mentored into you know community
involvement and advocacy and activism
for over a decade it's it feels like
home. Yeah, absolutely doing mad studies
and doing that within a School of
Disability Studies over the last decade,
as well, I certainly learned a lot in
that field, in that area, even though my
my academic background is as a
sociologist.
I really just am passionate about both
of those areas and mad studies in
particular because it's really emerging
and it's really a participatory and
involved in a way that I think is pretty
cutting-edge and cool. So I guess it's
just driven by you know - it's connected
to you and driven by you know a lot of
interest in my life like around my my
advocacy, my activism, and as well as my
academic interests. And just you know the
the fires in my gut about how I want to
change the world to. Fady - Yeah, can you
remember the first time you kind of
heard mad studies or heard someone
referenced this idea
of like studying with or from the
vantage point of people who have been
institutionalized or people had
experienced like the psychiatric system?
Danielle - For me it would have been when I took
the course of "A History of Madness" actually
as an undergraduate student when David
was teaching it. Fady - Right, this is David Reville. Danielle - Yeah, David Reville was teaching that course I think
I took it back in like 2007 maybe. Fady - Right. Danielle - And so
for me, it was a light bulb kind of
moment. It was the one undergraduate
class where I sat in the front of the
class rather than trying to melt into
the wallpaper at the back. And it was
really because I was at a turning point
in my life too. I mean I was coming back
to school in my mid-twenties. I had
experienced the psychiatric system as
youth and so it was it was really
interesting because for me that helps me
to get the language I needed to
politicize my own experience. To make
sense of it in a way. Because I was actually
coming off psychiatric medication when I
was taking that class um and, really just
helped to kind of make sense of some of
the things that I never had words for, right? Some of the stuff I'd gone through
and felt a lot of things about but never
really had a way to articulate. And so
going through that course really, and in
connecting with David and then starting
to make connections into the community,
and particularly through like different
peer support and advocacy groups after
that... that was kind of my my entry point
and my kind of lightbulb moment in terms
of, you know, what is this stuff? What you
know what's happening here?...around mad
studies. Fady - I mean I connect you so much
on this idea of language. I remember like
when I entered University it was what
like kept me I think my has kept me in
academia for so long is that it's given
me an entire language to describe
experiences that I you know that I
didn't know how to beforehand, right? It
was just like so it's so profoundly I
think significant when you learn about...
when you learn how to articulate
experiences, right?
And that somehow you can connect with
people through that process. Danielle - It's really
empowering to actually have those words,
right? Fady - Yeah! Danielle - Like I also took Disability Issues (another course at Ryerson) after
(Dr. Esther) Ignagni, even before I took the course of
David. So I had been introduced kind of
by taking this elective with Esther and
you know that was totally new to me. I
hadn't really, you know, connected much
around disability studies and she's a
fabulous teacher but she really gives
concrete examples and then kind of gets
you to engage with and grapple with them
in ways that mmm make you do the work.
But also gets you to a place where you
didn't think you were gonna go. So I
think that was a really eye-opening
experience for me. It's just like this is
kind of like a starting point so just
funny now that I teach in the same
school. But that was really where I kind
of started to learn about those
terms and those fields. Fady - I was going to say that it's somewhat full circle now
that you do kind of run the online
programming, you've taught in the
disability studies at Ryerson for a
number of years now, and I was, like I
said in the intro you're also you know
branching out and introducing disability
studies to a whole new department and a
whole new you know College essentially. Danielle - Ya absolutely, I'm bringing it to Centennial College now.
And that's been a fabulous experience
Centennial College is a really great
place to work. I really love to
colleagues there, it's very collegial.
It's not competitive. Like there's an
amazing group of folks that work at
Centennial and so that's also starting
to feel like home. Fady - Oh great! So I want to
know what specific kind of topic or
topic area you're looking at; whether
it's a project that you're doing; like
whether it's your research project for
your PhD, or if there's another kind of
project you want to talk about. Is there
something that kind of a research
question that you're asking yourself
right now? Danielle - Yeah, absolutely well I'm
proposal writing for my dissertation and
so that's really top of mind and I've
been planning this project for five
years now.
And I really I'm sticking to what I had imagined
five years ago because I really am
excited by the idea of taking on this
project. And I think it's timely and
it's really relevant. So, I am
particularly interested in what are
called consumer run businesses. And so
these are social enterprises that have
like a community economic development
approach and so they are
specifically run by people with mental
health and addictions histories and
there are a number of these kinds of
consumer owned businesses across Ontario
and some of them have been around for
thirty years. And this really came out of
the consumer survivor ex-patient
movement and there hasn't been that many
studies of these particular enterprises.
Some people...the studies that I
have read have kind of equated them in
some ways with like other kinds of both
rehab or sheltered workshop type
programs, but they are significantly
different and there are a few studies
have shown that, you know, they aren't the
same thing at all. And they really aren't,
in part because they they were started
and are run entirely by people with
mental health and addiction histories. 
And there are all kinds of small
businesses - like things from like
landscaping, to coffee shops, to cleaning
businesses, and it's a really exciting
opportunity for me to try and you know
learn about these businesses because I'm
I'm interested in how they do
accessibility. I think when it comes to
accessibility in the workplace and like
the integrated labor market, we have a
long way to go when it comes
particularly to folks with psychiatric
disabilities. Fady - Yeah.  Danielle - People within an
addiction histories, even just
invisible disabilities more broadly, we
don't know how to make workplaces
accessible effectively. Most workplaces
aren't accessible. We know how to do
accommodation, sometimes, mostly it's
temporary accommodations and we can, you
know, like...there are good policies around
you know accessibility for folks with
you know sensory or physical
disabilities. But really there
aren't a lot of great policies out there
in terms of how to make a workplace
particularly accessible,
not simply accommodating, but
accessible, for people with mental health
and addictions histories. And so I'm
really interested in how these
businesses do accessibility; concrete
practices of accessibility; what are they
doing on, you know, an everyday basis; and,
what that looks like and then what we
can learn and apply to integrated, you
know, other kinds of work spaces and
places. And I know that there's some
stuff that we won't be able to translate.
Like the fact that you.. in let's say you
work for a small social enterprise and
everyone there you know identifies as
having a mental health history you don't
have to explain and you know if you're
feeling really crazy and you can't
commit to work that day you might not
have um hide that, in the same way... you
might not feel ashamed in the same way
as you would if you were, you know,
working, you know, let's say for some big
business XYZ, right? So I think there's
some stuff that might be harder to
translate but I think there's also a lot
that we can learn around accessible
practices and can adapt in terms of, you
know, policy and practices. So yeah for me
I'm excited to be able to have the
chance to hopefully go around Ontario
visit some of these businesses; talk to
folks who work in the businesses at all
levels and yeah, and then do some more
archival digging - I love archival research
so that'll be fun - and look at how, you
know, how these businesses came to be in
the 90s. How they got funded and I
think it's really timely too because
some of these businesses have been
scooped up. Some are thriving, but some
have also..are at risk of or currently
being scooped up by mental health
agencies and providers which really
changes the nature of the business and
kind of almost returns it actually like
a voc rehab model. It's different when
you have a board and, you know, like you
can make these kind of independent
decisions and they're there are
community based routes. So yeah, that's
kind of what I'm planning to do in a
nutshell. Fady - Are you finding that, in
addition to these social
enterprises kind of are producing a kind
of access
that could be translated, is there also
different like economic structures? Like
is labor,
you know, conceptualize differently? Are
they... essentially am I asking like is it
different pay? IS it different pay
structures? Fady - Yeah, it is different in a number of ways. The
way in which the
organizations are funded is different. So
they would secure funding and in part
from the Ministry of Health or some
other kinds of funding streams, like
grants, right? So that they can have this
kind of social and political goals,
rather than simply just being a business
seeking profit. So it's not like a
strictly like a small business model.
It's like if you have your revenue is
coming from, you know, secured funding
then the other rest of the funding that
comes from the actual business ensures
that, you know, you can pay your
employees a fair wage and that's sort of
thing. So there is always that kind of
security and it allows a social
enterprise to, you know, have those kinds
of goals, right? To empower their workers
and create opportunities for
marginalized workers. It is different
also in terms of specifically for folks
with a psychiatric disabilities, now health
and addiction histories, the pay
structure keeps in mind that a lot of
these folks are coming in either on OW
or ODSP, right? So, these are
part-time positions for the most part
and the way in which they pay takes into
consideration the, in Ontario at
least, the clawbacks that happen
that cap you at how much you can work.
Instead of penalizing workers for
working above a particular marker, they
actually adapt to that and say, "Well you
know you can work as much as you want
and you know this number of hours..." and
and so it ensures that the worker can
really benefit from the opportunity. Fady - So
is there an underlying theoretical
approach that you're taking to this work.
Is there someone that you're reading
that's kind of guiding your thinking or
a group of scholars that you're reading
that are guiding your work? Danielle - 
Yeah, absolutely. Well it's funny like
when you start your graduate work, I
think a lot of people in mad studies
start with Foucault - start with post
structuralism, right? And so I did that
too, right?I really came in through
discourse and and I still have an
interest in that but more recently in
the last couple of years I'm really
drawn to feminist political economy as
my grounding, particularly when you're
looking at issues of labor and, you know,
you have to consider kind of the
basic oppression that happens under
capitalism. Fady - Yeah, and so, that for me has
been a real theoretical orientation... is
both discourse, but also on this feminist
political economy approach. I always go
back to the work of Dorothy Smith and
find her her work is always relevant and
bridges kind of this this historical
materialism, post-structuralist kind of
approaches in a way that makes sense to
me, and I so yeah, I definitely drawn
Dorothy Smith's work. And even though
I'm not doing like a strict
institutional ethnography...I'm not
planning to, I mean my research, I am
really interested in her work and I'm
kind of gonna be doing more like a case
study because I'm doing... like looking at
very particular kind of business and I'm
hoping to hit as many of those businesses
as I can, so it's more like an extended case study and I'm gonna draw on
Michael  Burawoy, he did a lot of work
on case studies, and also Flibery (sic) who
really has a methodological
approach to case studies that I find
useful, so. That's kind of it for reading, I
always go back to Smith though. Fady -Yeah, well
Smith is good too because it is a really
nice kind of like you said bridging
between also like methodology and theory. 
Danielle - Absolutely, yeah. Fady -  So let's talk a little
bit methodology. I want to hear more
about these case studies and the fact
that you're going to be visiting these
businesses. So is there a particular kind
of method that you'll be using?  And what
does a case study approach look like?
Danielle -  Well again, I'm still at the visualization part - 
like I'm proposing it right now so for
me it's it's really looking at in detail
learning as much as I can about the
history of these organizations and their
everyday practices and of course going
to Smith looking at, you know, their
everyday practices is essential and how
that practice is oriented through texts,
right? So, you know, like if you have an
email, or you have, you know, some policy
that guides your work,
how do people enact those texts in their
everyday work? How do we learn on the job
through texts as well as really
fascinating to me.  So I'm really gonna be
taking kind of like a three-tiered
method approach, which is gonna be
participant observation, it's gonna be
interviews, and it's gonna be archival
research and probably spend a lot of
time up at the archives of Ontario which
when I was doing my research
assistantship, when I was pregnant, I
spent a lot of time up there and so yeah
that's kind of how I'm attacking the
case study methodology, anyway. Fady - I mean
that sounds really interesting..
Hopefully will come back on some time
and tell us, kind of, how it went and, you
know, how things change as they always do, right?... when you actually start collecting
the work and visiting with people. Yeah,
it'll be interesting to find out what
you learn from the process. Danielle - Yeah. Fady - All
right, so let's move on to segment two.
What I like to call the middle or the
liminal space. I wanted to ask you who is
your current academic crush? Who can you
just simply not get over? Who are you in
love with at the moment? Danielle -  Oh my goodness, that's a really good question. I don't know, I
just did it like a comp exam so there's
a number of people that I couldn't put
down. I will say like I finally finally
finally had a chance to read Nirmala's
work like more of Nirmala's work and
read like an article or two. Fady - This is (Nirmala Erevelles)
work is at the University of Alabama. Danielle - Yeah, yes
and I can't stop recommending her to
people. Like I've gone to like
conferences and then be like have you
read Nirmala, cuz I think it really cool
to you.  So I know I'm not like I'm
behind the times but at the same time
her work is so relevant and like she
really does do that feminist political
economy works so well, so yeah. I was
really glad to have a chance to go back
to it and kind of and read more, like go
into her book and stuff so that for me
was like oh yeah I'm definitely on the Nirmala train. Fady - Yeah, I mean I was so happy
when her book was finally re-released.
It was at one point it was so expensive -
a hundred dollars a copy, so when it was
finally re-released it became kind of more
accessible, people could buy and finally
read it. I remember like I spent I think
probably a month with one of the
chapters, just trying to kind of, you know,
work through, it decipher. It was one
specifically connected to my research. So
I mean her work is so relevant for our
times. Danielle - Absolutely and the other one is
like in actually an academic press
that's a crush it's kind of old school. I
like going back to people to? Like I go
back to Smith a lot, um and recently I've
been going back to Marta Russell's
work and as kind of like the iconic
early feminist political economist,
disability studies scholar and her work
is so relevant. There's one book
Malhotra put out and that really honors
her work and a lot of people wrote
chapters in that draws on her work and
I've really enjoyed that book. Um I can't
remember what it's called off the top of
my head but it's Ravi Malhotra's book and it's like "Essays Honouring
Marta Russell." That's been a great read
lately. Fady - Amazing! So if you did have any
advice for young academics or young
students or PhD students in your own... who
are kind of going through things, as you
are, what would you give them, what would
you tell them? Danielle - (softly) Run far far away (laughter). Umm,  just take it easier on
yourself. Like work hard, but don't crush
yourself in the process. 
The academy is really good at doing
that, particularly to mad and disabled
students...eating us up and chewing us
out
and so just love yourself and if you
don't get through it, it doesn't mean you're
not like... it doesn't mean you're a failure
in any way, shape, or form. These
institutions are really ableist, they're really sanist
and just know that you
are valuable regardless. Fady - Regardless of whether, you
know, this institution can fit around you
not whether you can fit into the
institution. Danielle - Absolutely. It's like whether it's
digestible to them or not. Fady - Exactly!
Alright I'll just segment three. I like
called segment three outside the project,
the research, the work, the art, and this
is when we get to know you a little bit
better. I want to know who the most
famous person you've met and what was
that like. Danielle - Well way back in the day - I'm
in my 30s now - so back in my early
20s I used to go to film fest parties a
lot. Um and I would say the one person I
got to know, because I saw them at a few
different events - and it was a
really lovely person actually - is Al
Pacino's daughter Julie. She was working on a
film with a friend of hers that kind of
was a you know related to madness and
had a chance to go to that screening of
that film and it was around when I was
co-producing the film, "The Mars Project"
too. So we had a few conversations about
that but also it was just really nice,
you know, she's very down-to-earth, very
easygoing.
Um, you would never know she was like a
celebrity, or celebrities
daughter just by talking to
her, approaching her. And so had a chance
to get to know her. Other than that, I don't know
that many celebrities. I'm not cool Fady.
You should know this by now. Fady - Trust me, I don't think I can answer that question myself. That's the truth.
I don't know, like, I 
recently met Frantz Fanon's daughter, but
by "met" I mean I was in a, you know, 
500-person auditorium where she spoke.. so.
Danielle - I think there should be like a segment
just on like people's daughters. People's
cool daughters, right? Fady -
Exactly! Danielle - I remember I met um
what's-her-name
Stacey Mackenzie - she's like a famous
Canadian model. Met her at a film fest -
but other than that honestly, I'm not
even cool enough to know if they are
celebrities. Like if I met them I would
just be my dorky old self and I wouldn't
even know. Fady - Well I feel that makes
you very endearing. Danielle - When I go to trivia,
like I know the historical stuff.  Any of
the pop culture stuff is completely lost
on me. Fady - That's fair, that's fair. I want to ask about
the obscure fact that you carry around. 
What is the thing you pull out when
there's a lull in a conversation or an
awkward moment you want to fill. Danielle -  Well, see
here's the funny thing, my memory is
really funky. Sometimes it's great,
sometimes it's completely terrible. So
usually if I have an awkward moment in a
conversation I will fill it with some
odd fun fact that I've learned in the
last 24 hours. 
It's usually something like newer rather
than like going to the same fact, because
the same fact is gone within 48 hours. So,
within the last 24 hours
I had this revelation
So I don't know...Do you
know who Tracee Ellis Ross is?  Fady - Yes, of
course. Danielle - The mom on blackish? So I follow
her on Instagram and she's just fabulous.
Like I think she's a great actress and
just like a beautiful woman and she's
kooky and all that good stuff. So um I
only just discovered today but she's
actually Diana Ross's daughter. Like Diana Ross! Like. I didn't know this.
Like did everybody know this? Am I
like totally missing this? I just thought
she was like really cool and she is, but
huh, who knew? Fady - She is really cool and one thing that's really interesting about her is she
goes into her mom's closet and raids it
and wears like some of Diana Ross's like
outfits from the seventies and 90s on,
like, you know, a contemporary red
carpet. Danielle - I didn't know that - That's really bo and like lots of retro stuff. Fady - Yeah,
yeah, they're like from Diana Ross's
closet, which is... Danielle - That's too funny.
Okay so I've got one more fun fact for
you. It's not really fun. Tomorrow
is the Bangladesh Independence Day. So it's March 26 is Bangladesh Independence
Day, which is like an important
celebration...My husband is a
Bangladeshi so that's something we'll be
celebrating. Fady - And is there a specific kind
of meal that you do is a specific kind
of ritual or ceremony? What happens on
Bangladesh Independence Day? Danielle - 
Nothing like
that, no. I think we will just... I will say
Happy Bangladesh Independence Day (!!) and
that's kind of that... Fady - Alright, um are you
reading anything right now that you
think everyone should be reading?
Danielle - Something like nonacademic?Honestly, the
only thing that I have time to read
is like... I have the pile of academic
books because I made my nightstand but
the only honestly the other things that
I'm reading are like little kids books
because I have a two-year-old daughter
so if you want me to read the "Paper bag
Princess" to you for the 17th time, I can
do that. But that's that's a lot of
little kid books and there's some
fabulous little kid books out there.
Don't get me wrong, but like if I have to read "Monkey Puzzle" again one more time...oh my
god...Fady - 
And besides, of course, raising a young
daughter are there any other hobbies
that you're enjoying and how did you get
started in them. Danielle - Running. I'm trying to
get back into running again. I was an
avid runner before I had my
daughter. So that is helping with
being cooped up in the house during the
pandemic. Just getting out getting,
some fresh air, going for a run. I got
into it again kind of in my mid early to
mid 20s when I was coming off
psychiatric medication to deal with kind
of that that process and also just to
keep myself... like I was quitting smoking
at the time,  so
to also keep myself on that train. And I
got absolutely hooked on it because I
loved the outdoors and I found that it's
just really energizing and revitalizing. 
Like if you're running low on spoons, it
will give you more spoons. So it yeah, I
got really really hooked on it. I ran
many many a marathon and so now I'm just,
like trying to do like baby steps back
into it. Like short runs, but it feels so good. It
feels so good to get like outside,
feel the fresh air, and that's definitely
one of the hooked on. I miss cycling. I
used to cycle all over the city and now
that I live in Scarborough it's not as
easy to just get up in cycle. Especially
when you have like a little kid. Um so that is something I hope to get back into
is cycling. Fady - Yeah, the best thing about
running is that it's a relatively
inexpensive sport. It doesn't really cost
a lot of money. You have to have a good
pair of shoes and maybe you know
something to track how much you've run,
but other than that it's kind of like
you can pick up and do it anywhere.
Danielle - Absolutely and when you're a broke
undergraduate student it's a good one to
pick up. Fady - Yeah, absolutely. 
And so I want to end as I always do by
asking you how you think disability can
save the world?
Danielle - Well if only we'd been listening to all
these disabled scholars, activists, you
know, all this time, I think we'd all be
doing in much better shape right now.
It's kind of ridiculous, actually, because
disabled people have been interdependent.
They've been taking care of each other
for so long and been fighting for things
like, you know, flexible work from home
and all these kinds of practices that,
you know, we're suddenly all able to do
or at least adapt our systems to that,
you know? Nobody was doing before.... Nobody
was willing to do before other than
disabled people, who were, you know,
actively doing it anyways. So I think
disabled people can save the world
by what they're already doing, which
is making it work in a very everyday
kind of a way and we could learn from
their practices, which is kind of ties
into my research, really? It's like how
our disabled people already doing this
right? What can we learn from that?
And the other thing I think about
disability too is the ways in which
disability is like a crack in normality,
right? If you can think of it as like
this kind of golden crack, because it
always shows you the false nature of
normality, and so that crack is actually
a beautiful opening that we can... we can
recognize like that you don't have to
buy into this idea of being normal or
idealizing being normal. Fady - That's so
wonderful. And I think your research
does tie into this idea of... yeah, flexible
work schedules; new ways of seeing labor;
and our relationship to our co-workers. 
New ways of, you know, producing or
contributing to society and I think
disability does absolutely do that. And I
love the idea... of like the visual image
of disability as a golden crack... That to
me, is a beautiful way to end a wonderful
conversation. Thank you again for coming
on the podcast. It's been such a pleasure
speaking with you. Danielle - Thank you. This has been fun. (Music) Fady - Thanks again
to Danielle for coming on the show. Over
the next few weeks we'll be joined by
Tobin Healy and Jenna Reed. This podcast
is hosted produced and edited by me,
Fady Shanouda. Get in touch by sending
us an email at disabilitysavestheworld@gmail.com. If you're interested
in learning more about me and my work
you can check out my website
fadyshanouda.com.
Thank you again for listening and we'll
see you next time on
Disability Saves the World.
