- Sometimes these
movements have to be driven
by people who are
true believers,
because what happens is they
push things all the way over
and then it comes back.
Americans are not
an extreme people.
We are not extreme.
Americans are not socialist.
Americans are not
super right wing.
Americans want a better
life for their kids,
for the most part,
and are too busy
with their everyday thing.
I gotta take my kid to
baseball and I want to be able
to afford after school
activities for my kids.
That's what they
really care about.
I want a little extra cash.
(gentle music)
- I'm Dave Rubin, and this
is, "The Rubin Report."
As always guys, click
that subscribe button
and that little
notification bell,
so you have a small chance at
least of seeing our videos,
and joining me today is
a comedian, an actor,
and co-host of, "The Fighter
and the Kid," podcast.
Brian Callen, welcome
to, "The Rubin Report.
- Thank you, sir.
Big fan, big fan, love it.
- Look at us.
Big fan both ways.
- Here I am,
I finally made it.
- You're in the internet now.
This is like the center
of the internet, my garage.
- No liability here at all.
Yes, this right here.
- Everything that we
say here stays here
and no one will
get in any trouble.
You're completely fine.
- Yeah, exactly.
As long as you, as long as
you don't express yourself
freely, and thoughtfully,
and with reason.
- That seems like a
good place to start.
- Yeah.
- Comedy in an age
of cancellation, how are
you feeling these days?
- I think that it feels as
though this is the last bastion
for satire, honest expression,
original self-expression.
You know, I've had
comics call me and say,
"Well, I've got this show
with a certain network,
"and I'm afraid
that what I said,
"I expressed a point of view
that was more complicated
"than some black or
white," no pun intended,
you know?
- Oh you're going
for it already.
- And should I,
should I do this?
You have comics now wondering
if they should edit themselves
in podcasts, and my answer
is if that is, what,
if you are worried about that,
because you're working
for that network,
then you shouldn't
work for that network,
then you're no longer a comic.
Then you're no longer
in the business
of original self expression.
Thoughts and art has always
been there to disturb,
to shake things up.
Let's take, "Will and
Grace," as an example.
I auditioned for that
show maybe five times.
I can't remember if it was
for Jack, if it was for Eric,
if it was for both.
And I knew it was
gonna be a hit,
but it was so groundbreaking,
it was so astonishing.
It was the first time
that gay people were kind
of highlighted as this, as
people with senses of humor
who wanted the same thing
that straight people want.
I remember that being
a radical new idea,
and it, you know,
back then, you know,
we always talk about
how you can get canceled
for certain words, you say.
Well, in the, well, let's
say all, through all
of American history up
through probably the 90s,
if you were found
out to be gay in a,
in the workplace, well,
if you didn't get fired,
you weren't gonna get promoted.
It was a major liability
and physically dangerous.
So along comes, "Will
and Grace," and a
network took a risk.
So in that sense,
you know, you can,
you can point to examples
where it's very important
to continue to speak your mind,
and it's very important
when the pendulum swings
too far right, or too far left,
or too far in any direction.
As an artist, you gotta push
back, you gotta kind of go,
you gotta make fun of it,
and that's the one,
through all this insanity,
and there are a lot of
bad ideas out there,
And there are a lot of
sort of like, there's,
we're very polarized.
There's no room for
nuance, as you know,
as I'm sure you've picked up on,
but I do think Americans
have this really great safety
valve, this switch,
which is humor.
We tend to make
fun of ourselves.
We tend to make fun of the,
of cancel culture already.
We tend to make fun of,
of all of these things.
There's, Trump is always
being made fun of,
and so is the other
side, so I think at least
we are going to always,
we'll always have that thing.
Even kids now, my
friend's son who is 16,
my buddy said, "Look at
that, look at that butterfly,
"I wonder what he's
gonna land on next."
And his friend said,
"Dad, how are you assuming
"that's a he?"
I mean, how do you know?
And already kids
- It's true.
- are making fun of this stuff.
So I think that's very healthy.
- But doesn't this seem
a little unique in that
there's like a runaway train
aspect to it right now?
Where it used to be
kind of like, oh,
one person randomly
said one thing,
and they get taken out,
where now it just feels
like the whole
track got destroyed.
The train is going off and
everyone's kind of going
with it at the same time.
- If we were, if this was 1968,
we'd be saying the same thing,
and we'd be even more panicked.
You know, I think
right now we're dealing
with a confluence of events.
You're dealing with, you
know the George Floyd,
the terrible murder
of George Floyd,
you're dealing with COVID-19
where nobody has jobs,
and nobody has
anywhere to go to,
and you're dealing with
all these uncertainties,
and you're dealing with this
incredibly polarizing figure
named Donald Trump.
So that, all of that stuff
I think is a perfect storm.
So when you're in it, it's
hard to see a way out of it,
and it's hard to see sense.
I do think, again, there are
a lot of bad ideas out there,
and I do think that, but
again, I'm a moderate person,
I just am.
I'm naturally moderate, medium.
- Well, when I was on
your show, we were trying
to figure out what we might
differ on politically.
We couldn't come
up with that much.
- No, I think you're
a very reasonable,
I've listened to you many
times, and I've listened
to your guests and you're,
you know the truth is,
you are a reasonable,
fair minded person.
- Don't tell that to
The New York Times.
- Well, you know,
again, I think...
And then I find myself
saying, you know,
sometimes these movements
have to be driven by people
who are true believers,
because what happens is they,
they push things all the way
over, and then it comes back.
Americans are not
an extreme people.
We are not extreme.
Americans are not socialist.
Americans are not
super right wing.
Americans want a better
life for their kids,
for the most part,
and are too busy
with their every day thing.
I gotta take my kid to
baseball and I want to be able
to afford after school
activities for my kids.
That's what they
really care about.
I want a little extra cash.
I mean, if you really
come down to it,
and I think that they,
the silent majority,
the most they ever really
do is write letters.
- Tweet, we tweet
now, come on now.
- You know, stuff like that,
but you know, come election
time, a lot of times,
if they feel like their
bottom line is being affected,
i.e. the way their children
are being raised, educated,
and whether or not they
have a little extra cash
in their pocket, that that'll
get them to the polls.
Otherwise, I got enough for
this, and I got enough for that.
- Yeah, I wanna stick
with the comedy thing
for a little bit, because
you mentioned how,
if you're a comic and
you're working at a network
that's making you censor or
making you question yourself,
then you're working
at the wrong place.
- Yes.
- Isn't it odd though,
that for all of us that
are now in the podcast,
YouTube, whatever you
want to call this thing,
that now we're watching
ourselves do it to ourselves.
We're our own bosses.
I'm not saying you're doing
it and I'm not doing it,
but we know a lot of people
now that are getting in trouble
because of what's
being said on podcasts,
and we know that, you
know, Media Matters,
watches every word that
somebody's gonna say,
so that if you know, anybody
says one thing, the wrong way,
you can take them out,
- But you're not...
- even though these
guys own their stuff.
- Yeah, but trouble, when
you say getting in trouble,
the truth is that they're not.
The truth is, I look
at getting in trouble
as not being able
to earn a living.
You know, corporations
are incredibly,
in many ways,
spineless, and we'll get
into that in a second,
and what I mean by that,
but I think that
you're still, look,
I'm on stage all the time.
I was in Arizona,
I was in Texas.
Anywhere I go, when
I, when I say things
that seem reasonable, when
I criticize the sort of,
even whether it's
conservatives or liberals,
and I criticize
both, people love it.
People clap, people laugh,
because typically I
think I always find
that if I'm feeling this way,
so is most of the country.
- Yeah.
- Because most people
are just, they're
just reasonable.
They're not indoctrinated
into an ideology.
That is, I think the danger
in that is that if you look
at a lot of the media,
and you look at a lot
of the cognitive elite, if
you want to call 'em that,
they, you know, I think it
was Sam Harris who said,
"I don't know
anybody who smokes."
Camille Paglia said, I don't,
"Most of these people
don't know anybody
"who listens to sport radio,
or works with their hands,
"or has been in the military."
That's a big problem.
That's a huge part
of the country and
no, they're not dumb.
No, they're not.
They're just as smart as
anybody in the CNN boardroom,
or in the Huffington Post
board room, or at Fox News.
They're just as smart,
I promise you they are.
- They're probably smarter
- I know all of 'em,
- in lot of ways.
- I know 'em all.
Yeah, and I've been
around, I've been around,
I'm a little too old now,
and I've talked to probably
with my podcast, my old podcast,
I bet I've spoken to, I don't
know, I'll say 400 academics.
Maybe I'm wrong,
but a lot of 'em,
and from really
big universities,
'cause they, I would,
you know, they'd read,
they'd write a book,
and I'd read it,
and I'd interview them.
They're, they're specialized.
They're specialized in
one particular field.
It doesn't mean they have a
comprehensive understanding
of the world, not
better or not more,
more insightful
than anybody else,
because they live behind
very expensive walls,
they are in their own
purified, echo chamber,
they're terrified to step
outside of that echo chamber
or say anything that would grate
against the orthodoxy because
they will get destroyed.
Academia is a horrible place.
- By their own people
by the way.
- Oh, they're nuts.
- Not by the other guy,
- Oh my god.
- They're destroyed
by their own.
- Oh, they're not a
charitable people at all.
They're awful.
And it's, it is what Obama
called the circular firing line.
So I think it was another guy
who was maybe Vaclav Smil.
I can't remember, who
said, "Most of these people
"who are driving this debate,
"who are coming up with these
terms, like white privilege,
"like systematic racism
and stuff like that,
"are at the bottom of a well,
"and they're looking up at
their sliver of the sky,
"and all they can see is
that sliver of the sky."
There, isn't a comprehensive
understanding of the world.
When you live in the
real world and you have
to make a restaurant
work, when you have
to manage a restaurant.
When you get down to
a level of detail,
nobody is talking about
your gender or your sex.
We've gotta get the food
to the customers, man.
And we gotta stay in business,
which means I don't
have time for that,
I have time for
bottom line stuff.
And then I got my
kids and I got,
I gotta make my
relationship work,
and I get this pain here,
so I'm nervous about that.
That's what it is
to be a human being.
- Yeah.
- So a lot of this
stuff, when you say
getting in trouble for what
you said, it's not real.
There's a lot of chatter
and a lot of white noise,
but you can ignore it.
Your job is to stay honest
and be in the business
of original self expression,
and keep doing it
because it's needed,
and it's wanted.
Bill Burr will say that.
Bill Burr will be like, he
says crazy things on stage
and people are like, (gasping).
I've seen people go, "Is
he allowed to say that?"
And I'd say to Bill, I
go, "You're so gutsy."
I mean, he goes, "No,
I'm not, eight people
"on Twitter hate me.
"Everybody else gets it."
And he's right.
- Right, they'll call him
racist and then it's like.
- Yeah, but it's such a breath
of fresh air.
- Yeah, my wife
happens to be black.
- Right.
- Not that that proves anything.
- That's not a get
out of jail card.
- It's not anymore.
- Being black isn't a
get out of jail card.
Ask Candace Owens, ask Larry
Elder, ask Thomas Sowell.
These people are, you
know, Shelby Steele.
Those people are not, their
persona non grata on...
Ask Condoleezza Rice who
wasn't allowed to speak,
I think at Wesleyan.
- Oh yeah.
- Hmm, concert
pianist, smart woman,
but you're not on that side.
So those people are afraid.
They're afraid of true
scholarship, of nuance,
and of deep thinking,
and it requires that.
- What about the
regular people though?
Not the comics that are
supposed to be doing this,
and the artists
that are supposed
to be expressing themselves,
'cause that's the big one
I get now.
Like the amount of mail I
get every day from people
that are just like, I have
to be anonymous on Twitter,
I can't post on Facebook
anymore, or all of that stuff,
because their job
is not expression,
and they're afraid they're
gonna lose their job
if they happen...
- And they can.
- Yeah.
- And that's what's
so disheartening, is
that corporations,
if you work for a large
corporation, they don't care.
They're about their bottom line.
You really think, and it's not
that they're racist or anything.
Do you really think that
because Adidas, or Nike,
or Netflix, whoever
stands against racism,
do you stand against
racism, guys?
- I do, I do.
- Do you, do you?
That's awesome.
- I don't want people
to be racist.
- If you could go back
and stop slavery, would you?
- I would, I would.
- Wow, you're so noble,
and thanks for posting
that black square,
because that's what a single
mom in the hood needs from you.
Boy, she must be breathing
a breath of fresh air
as she's trying to
raise three kids.
That must be fantastic.
And her other kid just got
picked up on a marijuana bid
and is looking at getting
stuck in the system
that he can't get out, but
thanks for your black square.
And thank you, Hollywood actors
for taking responsibility.
- How 'bout those videos?
- I appreciate that,
'cause you guys are making
such a difference.
It's embarrassing.
It's embarrassing.
And thank you, thank you
for repeating the phrase
that was given to you by
someone you don't know,
like systematic racism
and white privilege.
It sounds good, it makes you
feel emotionally
cathartic, I suppose.
What are you actually doing?
Where were you when a
hundred black people
were shot in Chicago over
Father's Day weekend?
Five of them children
who were killed.
Where were you?
Why are you not in the
street there, my friends?
But you're not, because
you're too busy.
Because at the end of
the day, you can't be.
Unfortunately, sometimes
things are bigger than you are.
And so all you can do is,
is reach out like a
spastic, and kind of say,
I, let me tweet something,
"I'm against racism.
"I'm for peace and harmony."
You're for peace and harmony?
I'm for war and chaos.
Dude, I can't believe that,
But your bumper sticker,
and that thing you put up
in your store really
has changed my mind.
So I, I just see a bunch of,
it's like watching a bunch
of people on stationary bicycles
trying to get somewhere,
and it's embarrassing.
- There's a guy that's
about five houses over.
I will walk out with you
after this and show you,
who's got the Bernie
bumper sticker
and you know co-exist,
and the whole thing,
- Sure.
- and he has literally
the biggest fence
in the neighborhood.
(Bryan laughing)
The biggest, not only does
he have a fence in front
of his house, his door has
a fence in front of it.
I've never even
seen this before.
I'm sure they have more
of them in Beverly Hills,
but like, you know, his front
door, extra fence right there.
And it's like, oh, well you
got all the bumper stickers,
right?
- Right.
- Suddenly you like fences.
- Look, I've never been
a fan of Donald Trump.
I don't like his personality,
I don't think he's
an effective leader, I
have a lot of criticisms,
I did not vote for him.
I'm not a fan, never have been.
- Did you vote for Hillary?
- I did vote for Hillary
and I don't like Hillary.
I didn't know what to do.
I couldn't vote for that guy.
I just, he just, and
especially in the beginning
when he was like, you
know, if, if I have,
"I want a ban on Muslims,
I want to build a wall."
It just all sounded un-American,
but my biggest criticism
of Trump is that he's,
he's a Trumpist.
- Yeah.
- I mean, you know if I were
debating Trump, I'd be like,
"You care about Trump, you
don't care about the country."
So I have my criticisms,
but what's interesting
about the sort of,
and I was a critic of,
I don't like the idea
of building a wall.
There's gotta be a
smarter way to do this.
I mean, I just, it just,
it just sounded terrible.
So, but, but what's interesting
about the most vocal,
the people that are
really against the wall,
and things is, the people
that are doing that
live behind very
expensive walls.
Try getting in, try
getting over the wall
that is Harvard, the
wall that is Yale,
the wall that is
Princeton, the wall
that is Wesleyan, the wall
that is Williams College.
- The wall that is
Nancy Pelosi's house.
- Oh, well, forget
that, forget that.
Isn't she responsible
for the Tenderloin,
isn't that her district in,
or is that Maxine Waters?
The late Maxine, I'm not sure.
- Oh Maxine is here.
Yeah, no Nancy's
up in San Francisco.
- I mean that's Nancy, yeah.
So I mean, of course.
So you people live behind
very expensive walls.
I can't afford those walls
and I don't have
the grades, so...
- But why is it people can't
connect those two things?
- Well, here's another
thing that I thought of,
that I thought Candace
Owens was, had said in,
'cause what I've been doing
lately is I'm on YouTube,
and I watch debates
between black conservatives
and black liberals, and I
get a lot from both sides.
I love it.
I'm not, I'm not, you know
it's very interesting.
I'm the guy who has been, my dad
had me reading Thomas
Sowell a long time ago,
you know that stuff.
But what's interesting
is that she said,
"Look, if black lives
really matter and you,
"you are worried about black,
the black sort of a vote
"and the black, you know,
political influence,
"which is what it comes
down to, especially
"in local politics,
you better get serious
"about criminalizing the border.
"Because if you have
unchecked immigration
"from south of the
border, the Latino vote,
"God bless 'em, is going
to render your vote
"as an African
American, obsolete.
"You can say whatever you
want, but when it comes down
"to getting votes, politicians
are going to be able
"to skip over your districts.
"It's not gonna
matter in five years."
And I went, "Ooh, wow,
ooh, that's a contradict,
that's a real,
that puts the left
in a real predicament here.
It really does, because now
you've got to get very serious
about immigration, maybe
even draconian, hard,
terrible, terrible problem
when you have children,
and you have desperate
people trying
to come over your border.
I don't know the answer, I
don't know how to solve that,
but what a dilemma,
and what a corner they
have painted themselves in.
- Yeah, and there's studies
by the way that show
that Latino immigrants
who've come here legally
are now actually much harsher
on illegal immigration
than your average white liberal.
- What a surprise.
- Because they came
in the right way
and they built.
- They're conservative people.
- Yeah, and they've become
the new conservatives.
- They make up a lot
of the school boards
in this country, and
they're Catholic,
and they're conservative,
and you know,
they're very, they're
tight knit families,
and stuff like that, yeah.
- I'm starting to think
that maybe judging people
by the color of their
skin and their ethnicity,
maybe that can't hold
in the long term.
- Dave, Dave,
you mean treat people
like individuals?
You mean the principles
this country was founded on?
Look, we've always been,
we've always been a country,
that is, we are a contradiction.
We've been doing this racial
dance and Jamie Masada,
who's the owner of
the Laugh Factory,
told me an amazing story about
when Richard Pryor showed up,
this is in the 70s.
Paul Mooney was there.
Paul had a big afro
and Paul Mooney,
Richard Pryor came in
with his crazy Mercedes
and Paul Mooney, he goes,
"What are you doing, bro?
"That's a white man's
car, are you crazy?"
And Richard Pryor said,
"What are you talking about?"
And he said, "Get in the car."
So Paul Mooney gets in the car.
He says, "I'm driving."
So Paul had this afro.
It's Richard Pryor,
it's two other comics,
I think one was
black as well, maybe,
and then Jamie
Masada in the back,
and they take a drive, and
they got stopped four times
for "swerving," and finally,
a black cop in Beverly Hills
said, "You're Richard Pryor,
he's the greatest thing
"in the world," and
they let him go.
But they went to Brentwood,
they went to Beverly Hills,
and so it was, there is no
doubt that historically,
there is no doubt if
you're African American,
you have a different
relationship with the police
than you do if you're white.
There's no doubt about that.
I would never argue
that in a million years.
The question is, the question
is, what do we do about it?
What do we do about it?
Dismantle the police force?
So these are the,
these are the bad ideas
that I think are, these
reactionary ideas.
- So the billion they're cuttin'
from New York City policing,
that de Blasio wants
to get rid of as, as crime
is now, I think murders
are up 150%, last week,
- Shootings are, yeah.
- or something.
- That'll be
his political liability
and de Blasio is not a man
who lives in reality,
in my opinion.
And I think he's a
guy who, you know,
he was talking about how,
I don't think he's
ever had a real,
I don't think he's
ever had a real job.
And he'll tell you if he was
here, he'd say I run a company
that's got 50,000 employees.
I know, I know Bill.
I know, that's
good, good on you,
except for you don't
have to turn a profit.
- Right.
And it doesn't mean
you run it well..
- And it doesn't
mean you run it well.
And he's got a very
strong, it seems to me,
from what I've heard,
a socialist ideology.
He speaks like a lot of
politicians did in Sweden
in the 70s, and let's
see what happens.
Let's see what happens.
I'm not impressed so far.
I do think that police
unions are very powerful.
I do think they got,
they get a lot of money,
to the tune of sometimes
they get too much money
in terms of the tax
base in those towns,
like Stockton, can't afford
to support the fireman safety
union, the police union.
Michael Lewis wrote a good book,
highlighting this in a
book called, "Boomerang."
I recommend it to people,
and he highlights California.
So, sometimes when
you're talking
about defunding the police,
you're talking about
taking money away
from those very powerful
unions and putting it
into other programs.
I understand that.
Again, again, you
know, when I dismiss it
as a liberal argument,
I'm not being fair.
There are very smart
people on the left,
who are looking at data as well,
and they have
something to offer.
So I don't want to, you know.
- Right, well look, you
know where I stand on this,
and it's like, if you told
me you were cutting budgets,
if you told me you were
cutting, basically every city,
federal state, the whole
thing, budgets by 20%
across the board, I think,
I think we'd be just fine.
I don't think when you're
looking at 150% increases
in murder, that you, that
what you should be doing,
optically, if, if not even
granularly or correctly,
you should be doing it, 'cause
it just doesn't look right.
But you mentioned something
to me right before we started.
I had Giuliani on a
couple of weeks ago,
and when you say that de Blasio
is, you know not qualified,
or it's like, what
has he done to prove
that he can run this city?
Well, Giuliani, the
guy has got a pedigree.
He was an attorney general,
he was hunting down the mafia.
- Well his father was, got
shook down by the mafia.
- Right, so he talks about that.
So his whole life in many
ways led to being the mayor,
the guy in charge of
the most important city
during the most horrific
terrorist attack,
the whole thing.
You were telling me a little
bit about what it was like
to be in New York City.
You got, you got a
couple years on me,
so there were some things
that you remembered
that I don't quite remember.
- I remember New York.
My mother and father, my
mother was born and raised
in Brooklyn, you know,
and then she went
to Westchester
County, but my family,
the Italian side was...
- My dad, born in Brooklyn,
my mom grew up in Westchester.
- All right, well good.
So the Italian side, the
Sicilian side are all Brooklyn,
Staten Island, and then
some in Westchester.
So I would always, I grew
up overseas my whole life,
but when I finally went to
college in Washington, DC,
I would come up to New
York to see my family,
and I had my
friends in New York.
And so I remember
what New York was like
in '87, '88, '89, '90.
When you went down to
Tompkins Square Park,
when they, when they shut
it down and redid it,
they found diseases in
the soil like tetanus,
like bubonic, plague.
I mean you, when my grandfather
found out I was hanging out
on Avenue A, I was
dating Patty Jenkins,
who is the great director of
"Wonder Woman," (mumbling),
and she lived on Avenue
A and 11th street.
And when I would
go down there, man,
I was always so nervous
because it was Mad Max,
it was chaos, it was crazy.
And my grandfather couldn't
believe I was hanging out
down there, and there was
an expression back then,
if you hung out an Avenue
A, you're adventurous,
B, you were bold, C you were
crazy, and D you were dead.
And I'm telling you, man, when
I used to go see my buddy,
John Joseph, who was the
lead singer of the Cro Mags,
this is in 1989, this
was probably '91, '91.
People don't believe
this, but it was '91.
It was right where CBGBs was.
I could not, he would have
to meet me on Houston Street,
because we would go into,
like where Ludlow Street,
Rivington, try buying
an apartment there now.
See how much it costs you.
Forget it.
I mean, you can't
look at a place
for under $3,000 a square foot.
- Well, it's a little
less now because the city
ain't doing so great, but...
- Okay, maybe a little less,
maybe a little less.
I was, I could not,
he had to walk me
because I'd get jumped
by the local kids,
the gangs that were
hanging out there,
and I would walk with him, but
if I wasn't walking with him,
I was in trouble.
And he was adamant about that.
He goes, "You can't, you
gotta, I gotta meet you.
"I'm just afraid that, you know,
"somebody will mess with you."
So to see that radical
shift under Giuliani
was kind of amazing.
Look, I don't know
what it's like to run
and be the mayor of a city.
I don't know Bill de Blasio,
I don't know what the
challenges he faces.
I do have a sense of
what his ideology is,
and I don't think it's the
best thing in the world for,
we are in very different...
- Do you consider
yourself that political?
It's interesting 'cause
you're sort of political,
but also it strikes
me as more, just like,
- Look...
- I care about
life or something.
- I think Albert Camus
said, "In the 20th century,
"no one can afford
to not be politically
"and philosophically committed."
And the 20th century
saw what happens
when you're on the
wrong side of the coin.
When, when bad ideas win,
when bad ideas like collectivism
and fascism win the day,
people die, people die.
And I can take you to 80 million
graves to prove that point.
See the 40 year European
Civil War called World War I
and World War II, and the
red, and the famines in China,
and the famines and
forced collectivization
in Stalin's Russia,
et cetera, et cetera.
So my favorite expression is,
"You may not be interested
"in politics, but it's
interested in you,
"and it will come for you."
So yes, I'm political and
yes, I'm philosophical,
and it's very difficult
to earn your opinion.
It's difficult, it
takes a lot of time,
it takes a lot of reading
and it requires you
to change your mind
and stay humble.
So I guess I am political,
but I don't know.
I try to be, I try to
be middle of the road.
Well, I, no.
A better way to say it
is I try to be responsive
to the evidence.
I try to really listen to
people I disagree with.
I do, and I get a lot out of it.
I try to listen to people
who are, for example,
the liberal, I've read a
lot of Ta-Nehisi Coates,
and Ta-Nehisi is, you
know, would be considered
on the sort of left
side of the spectrum
in black intelligentsia.
He's a beautiful writer, man.
He writes, it's almost like
these psalms he writes.
They're so moving.
God, I mean that guy's
an incredible writer.
It's okay to be really
moved by something,
and have it emotionally
move you, and to believe it,
and to have it affect your DNA,
and still fundamentally,
rationally,
maybe disagree with
the big picture,
and to be more on the
side of someone like a,
I think it's John Worthner,
- Werther.
- or Larry Elder,
or Shelby Steele,
or Thomas Sowell.
There is room for both
There's room for both.
- Do you think some of
that's just emotional makeup
that some of the
guys that lean right,
they tend to just focus
more on provable facts,
versus perhaps the pros
that you're talking about,
or something like that?
Like it just depends on
where your brain's at.
- Yeah, Coleman, Coleman Hughes,
who's sort of a disciple,
a young disciple.
I mean, Coleman Hughes
is figuring his way
through the world
as is Candace Owens,
but both of them are very
energetic, very intelligent,
very articulate human
beings, who happen to be...
They've just read, they're
parroting with all due respect,
they're parroting
the great thinker,
the towering intellects
like Thomas Sowell on stuff,
and not to take
anything away from them.
- It's not a shot.
And they have a lot of guts.
- You learn from people.
- They have a lot of guts and
they're taking on the fight.
But Coleman Hughes
said something really,
really interesting about he
and Worthner were talking,
and said, "Well, you know,
we sound very 'white,'"
they said, "and we
sound very rational,
"and we sound, we're
both kind of atheists."
And what Martin, Martin
Luther King had going for him,
he was not terrestrial.
He was up there and
he was speaking.
I mean, they, the,
Killer Mike is one
of my favorite Americans.
I might vote for Killer Mike.
I love that guy.
that guy's read it all.
That guy is so brilliant.
I mean, he's a guy who I
really, really jive with
because he seems like he's on
both sides of the spectrum.
We need someone as articulate
and as, of that community.
See, when I hear someone speak
some like Killer Mike speak,
I, and most people go,
"That guy comes from a part
"of the world where
things like bills,
"rent are all you
can think about."
Where he knows a lot of kids
who've been either shot,
put in jail, rightly or
wrongly, or living in that,
in that they're caught
up in the system,
and they pay for it
with their blood,
they pay for it, with
their, with losing years
on their life, with, you
know, just their grandmother's
the only one that owns a
house 'cause she got it,
and then somebody's trying
to take it from them...
They live these terrible things.
Until the sort of
black intelligentsia,
this is what they were saying.
Until they have someone
who is that theatrical,
who can really speak
with that musicality,
and that dramatic effect,
they will always be the
guys who are kind of,
you guys are just, you
guys are kind of over there
and you're too rational.
Human beings change there,
we keep forgetting that people
on the right and the left,
you know, we keep forgetting
that it's about changing minds,
it's about persuasion.
I get that you have
your point of view,
and I get that you
have your graphs,
and I get that you can
point to things like that,
but you know, if you
speak like Tucker Carlson,
or if you speak like Coleman
Hughes, or whoever it is,
or if you speak like whatever,
they are very thoughtful,
rational, people who
make very good arguments.
A lot of times, that's not
how your mind is changed.
Your mind is changed when
someone can hit you here,
and hit you here.
And that's what someone
like Ta-Nehisi Coates has.
That's where art, and comedy,
and satire come into play.
You change people's minds
by getting them to laugh,
getting them to relax,
getting them to feel valued,
getting them to understand
that the way they feel matters.
It's not the, you know, the
reason a lot of black people
are really upset and taking
to the streets is not made up.
That has to be acknowledged,
and it has to be seen,
and we have to see that first,
and then you find a way
to get nuance in there,
because they are open to nuance.
Not yet, sometimes, not yet.
Human beings at first, when
we're first, when you hit me,
when I get hit in the mouth,
you gotta give me a second,
'cause I wanna hit you back.
It's my instinct.
If you're, if I'm
holding onto something
that I care about a lot, and
you pull it out of my hand,
I'm gonna reach for it.
Even an infant does that.
You gotta give us
time to reach for it.
Let me grab it back,
let me hold onto it.
Give me a day, give me a year,
and then we'll come back and
we'll, we'll have the debate,
and we'll be able
to get all of those
little things in there.
And I think that's what, why
I take heart in this country.
Because at the end of
the day, we always seem
to come back here,
and we figure it out,
and we make fun of how
crazy we were when we were
having our tantrum on
the right and the left.
And then we somehow figure
out when we get down
to the level of detail,
it kind of makes it sense,
and it's way here.
I'm an optimist.
- I was gonna say,
you're an optimist.
- I am.
- Yeah.
- I am.
I think that's what happens.
I think that's
who you and I are,
and I think that's who
a lot of people are.
- Well, it's funny 'cause
people always say to me,
"Are you an optimist
or a pessimist?"
And I always say, "Well, I'm
a world weary, optimist."
I don't think I could do this,
if I wasn't an optimist,
you know what I mean?
Like if I didn't
fundamentally believe,
"Oh, we actually
can change people,
"or any of this
actually matters."
What the hell would
we be doing all day?
Why would we be talking
to all these people,
reading these books
and the rest of it?
It would be, it would just
be an exercise in futility.
- But you're Jewish, Dave,
and so is Sam Harris,
and so are...
- Doesn't usually end
well for the Jews.
- No, no, but the
tradition in the Jewish,
and Ben Shapiro, the
tradition in the Jewish,
whether you know, it or not,
the history of the Jews,
Moses debated...
- Was fighting this stuff.
- Moses argued with God.
Moses!
God called them the stiff necked
people for debate, debate.
A rabbi would always,
there are plenty of stories
in the Old Testament
and you know, of rabbis,
when even if God were to come
down and perform a miracle,
the rabbis would say, "Well,
how can we be sure of that?"
- Yeah.
- So, so...
- Three Jews
at a table, four opinions.
- The Jews have always been
in a very precarious position.
They've always been
this tiny minority,
who are the greatest
innovators of all time,
because they've always been
on the outside looking in,
and saying, "Something's
not right here.
"Sorry to rock the boat,
but it's not fair."
You know, think about it.
Think about Sigmund
Freud, who, I mean,
Sigmund Freud was
a Jew who said,
"There's something called
the subconscious," what?
"Oh, and by the way,
you secretly want
"to have sex with your mom."
What?
Do you know how
heretical, do you know
how outrageous that was?
Albert Einstein said,
"Hey guys, I know
"that Isaac Newton said
that, you know, there's,
"there's something called
time, and it's the alpha
"and the omega,
time's relative."
What?
Time bends, and so
everything you've ever heard,
including the Bible is wrong.
They called him, they
called it Jewish science.
They called it Dadaism.
I mean, so you are standing
well in your tradition,
you should be speaking
truth to power.
You should be pushing back,
you should be debating.
That is one of the
greatest gifts.
I get hit up sometimes by Nazis.
They find my email.
They find my email and I
love to have these arguments.
I love to sit there and go,
"I'm glad that you've been,
"you're parroting what some
moron has put in your head,
"and now let me debate you."
So...
- You're spending time during
the day, debating Nazis?
- I like to try to change minds.
And that's what we have to do,
because they're
usually young angry men
who have nowhere to
place their energy.
And if you can, if you
can start to talk to them,
it's how I, my mind was
changed that way, Dave.
My mind was changed that way.
I was a young man.
- Do you remember a moment?
- Very well.
I was a young man in,
in theater school,
and I had never really
met anybody who was gay,
and my wonderful, the
man who changed my life.
A couple of men have
changed my life,
but he was this
wonderful teacher
at the Neighborhood Playhouse
named Richard Pinter,
and he had this giant
mustache, and he was a gay man,
and openly gay, and I'd
never met, I was 22,
I'd never really
actually, and he was,
he said, he started
talking to me and he said,
"Ooh, that embarrassed you,"
and I said, "Huh, what?"
And he said, "Oh, you have
one idea of what it is
"to be a man, don't you?
"Yeah, you have a very
strong idea of masculinity,
"but you know, being
emotional is also masculine."
And it was the beginning
of my journey of, you know,
so I was suddenly exposed
to the theater world
in New York and I was
around gay people.
And, and then, but if
you had told me that,
that two gay people,
especially two gay men
could raise a child.
I remember arguing with a
girl and saying, "That's not,
"no, we can't have that.
"It's not safe for the kid."
I don't remember
what I was saying,
but I was 21 or 22, and she
was raised by two gay parents.
And she changed my mind.
She changed my mind.
Well, she didn't,
she got me started.
And then I grew up and
I started to take a look
at the world, and I started to
read, and I started to think,
and I matured,
and lo and behold,
now I'm pro gay marriage,
and I'm pro all of that.
- So tolerant.
- I know and guess
what else I am,
I'm pro legalization of drugs.
And I'm, you know,
I'm all those things.
I'm pretty libertarian
in a lot of ways,
but that doesn't mean I don't
believe in some government.
I'm not, you know, I
think we do need some.
- Yeah, well, that's where,
when I was on your show,
we started talking about
that stuff and trying
to figure out, all
right, so where are
our misaligned things.
Are you for
legalizing all drugs?
You're down to elicit...
- I don't know.
Meth, and crack,
and the whole shebang.
- I don't know.
I don't know.
I find myself saying,
I don't know a lot.
I, because..
- You mentioned Michael Malice
right before we started.
He's down to legalize
absolutely everything,
and I've debated this with him.
You know, weed, sure, all the
psychedelic stuff, absolutely,
and I wouldn't want to
be putting people in jail
because of, you know,
doing small amounts of coke
or something like that,
but to me, you can't.
I know that if, if
everything was legal,
that if my next
door neighbor was,
was cooking meth, it is
not good for the community,
it's not good for life.
- No, well you wouldn't
have to cook meth if
it was legal, right?
He'd be able to get it.
- If it, yeah, but if
more and more people
were doing these things, and
I know it's not a perfect
argument because people
aren't necessarily doing it,
not doing it because
it's illegal.
- Yeah, well, the way I look
at it is this, there are,
there must be
personalities who are gonna
do that stuff anyway, right?
I mean, think about it.
- For sure.
- Think about it, if I
was doing a lot of blow,
I don't have time.
I went to a party in Seattle
one time after my show
and everybody was
doing blow, and I,
they were offering me blow.
You know, as a
comic, I've had that.
I gotta wake up, I
gotta catch a flight
or I got a life, I can't.
- Well you just don't
get to sleep.
- And also, I don't want my
heart to stop.
I mean there are a lot
of things where you go,
who's, how do you
guys, you know, so,
or but I mean, I also
don't have time to do meth.
It doesn't work out very well.
- Right.
- Right?
So some of these...
- That's a good PSA
right there.
- Yes, I know.
- Meth, I just don't have time.
- Nobody ever had a lot
of problems, did meth,
and then it got better.
No doubt.
- Never.
- Said no one ever, right?
- Yeah.
- So sometimes I think that,
I don't know if anybody,
you know, there's a
lot of scotch available
anytime I want, I got a
bunch of it in my house.
I don't have time to
get to drink scotch.
I don't feel well the next day.
It doesn't go with
me, but some people
can't stop drinking scotch.
So I really wonder if all
of this stuff was zoned,
and it was available the way
any kind of a drug could be,
under supervision
or whatever it is.
Would you do it?
Well, if you get caught
in your car on meth,
if you get caught in your
car and you're wired,
you're gonna go to jail.
Or if you get tested
at your workplace,
you're gonna be in trouble,
so I think responsible people
still wouldn't have the luxury
or wouldn't want to do it.
So that's my argument there.
I do think you'd maybe
would have more accidental
ingestion of things and I don't,
but how is the war on
drugs going so far?
Just curious.
- No, quite horribly.
- Yeah, just wondering.
- Look, marijuana
is still federally illegal.
- Let's talk to the Mexicans.
Yeah, talk to the Mexicans.
Talk to the Mexican population.
The people that have to
live with this stuff.
How many bodies have
they had to bag,
innocent, innocent
civilians and stuff?
So I'm not impressed and
there's a lot of money
in this stuff, but
I'm not impressed.
Collective madness exists.
And I am not impressed
with, for example,
I've just read two books
on the Afghanistan Wars.
Steven Coll wrote, "Ghost
Wars," and he wrote,
"Directorate S," and he
did an exhaustive study.
He's a Washington
Post journalist,
an exhaustive study on the
CIA Wars in Afghanistan,
and how, and our
relationship with Pakistani
Special Services, the ISI.
And boy, oh boy.
Boy, oh boy.
Did we make, we've been
there for 17 years and...
- The longest war
in American history.
- Yeah, and every year the
generals in the Pentagon
would say, "This is the
decisive year, baby.
"We're gonna turn the corner."
And they tried everything.
These are not dumb people.
They tried it all.
Any argument you
can come up with.
We gotta have local
people, they've gotta,
win hearts and minds.
They know all that.
They did it all.
They did everything they
could, as well as they could.
But boy, did they get
good at killing Taliban.
And boy, you better be careful
when you have a president
like George W. Bush or
anybody else who looks
at these people and says,
who labels an entire group
of people like,
they're the good guys
and they're the bad guys.
Be careful of binary
thought patterns.
Good guys, bad guys,
Taliban, Ba'athists,
and everybody else,
all that crap.
You better be careful,
doesn't work out historically.
So I dunno where I was
going with that, but..
- Well, does either book
go into why we're there?
I feel like nobody even knows
why we're there anymore.
- Because.
- Like I know
there was an argument,
the Taliban,
- That's not.
- 17 years ago, but...
- I'll tell you
why we were there.
We went in there to
get rid of Al-Qaeda.
Problem is then when
Al-Qaeda, after Tora Bora,
after all of them found
themselves in the Waziristan,
the hinterlands and in Pakistan,
we had all these, we had this
entire military apparatus.
We had these highly trained
commandos who had nothing to do.
And even though the
Taliban were reaching out
under Mullah Omar, who said,
"We want to share in a ruling,
"we want to share in
ruling the new Afghanistan,
"just cut us in, come to
the negotiating table."
When you have someone
like George W,
and people say, "No, the
Taliban are all barbaric,"
which maybe they were, but
we can't negotiate with them,
the way they did with anybody
who was Ba'athist in Iraq.
And then you, you add to
the fact that you have to,
then we also, by the way,
have to fight another war.
We have to invade Iraq in 2003.
I know we haven't done
anything yet in Afghanistan.
Let's do a two front war.
What happens is these, you
have this military apparatus
and who do they turn to?
Well, Al-Qaeda's
not there anymore,
but the Taliban is
there, and they're there,
and they harbored Al-Qaeda, so
they must be terrorists too.
And so when you cut
them completely out,
when you take away any option
for them to participate
in the ruling of the new
Afghanistan, they have to fight.
And so you, you
call them Taliban,
and I've talked to
a lot of soldiers,
tip of the spear
guys about this.
I've talked to, I've
read enough, on,
and people that were really
involved in this stuff.
You call 'em Taliban, that's
a kid who's 14, 15, 16, 17,
18, who doesn't have
anywhere to turn.
And that local group called
the Taliban are going
to give him four
squares and a cot,
and a sense of, three
squares and a cot,
and a sense of purpose?
Yeah, well, that's what happens.
So now you're fighting Taliban,
you're fighting everybody.
- Isn't it weird
- You're fighting everybody.
- how we stay in these places,
and I think if you asked,
I think it would be something
like 75% of Americans.
If you said, let's
just leave today,
let's just, let's just get out.
We don't know why we're there.
Nobody knows why.
That's why I started
the question like that.
Like, nobody really knows why.
- That's not
how government works.
- We know how it was sold,
but right, that's not
how it (mumbles).
- Government works on intent.
Every politician and
every government,
including the Pentagon.
So I love these
guys who are like,
"I favor small government,
"although we can't cut
the military's budget.
"Gotta have that."
Okay, how is that going again?
- Again, I would cut it
- It's so taboo to talk
- all 20% right off.
- about the military
and stuff like that.
Bloated bureaucracy.
So is the CIA, so is DIA,
so is the National Security
Agency, so is all of it.
They're huge bloated
bureaucracies and
anybody who's in it
will tell you that.
No, they're not sacred.
No, it's not hands-off.
Yes, you should criticize them.
Yes, you should hold
them to account,
because I'm not impressed.
And you know whose fault it is,
you can't find anybody's fault.
They're all, a lot of
people are highly competent,
very intelligent people.
The problem with any
government agency,
including the military, and
the intelligence apparatus,
is it continues to grow.
There's no politician
wants to be seen
being soft on military,
soft on intelligence,
soft on terrorism.
So you've gotta
package these things.
You've gotta pass things
like the Patriot Act.
You're against the Patriot Act?
You must not be a patriot.
So you, so packaging.
Words are very important.
Black lives matter.
Are you gonna say they don't?
Are you against that?
It's very, very shrewd
of any movement.
When you, the first thing
you do with a movement
is you word it properly.
You gotta spend a lot of
time in that boardroom
coming out with a really
cool, irrefutable,
marketable name or phrase,
and the military does it,
and administrations
do it all the time.
- You're not a progressive,
you're not for progress?
What are you for?
- There you go, buddy.
There you go.
And that's what you
better be careful of.
And I don't think most
Americans are hoodwinked.
I think most
Americans know that.
Thank God.
I have a lot of faith
in the common man.
- All right, we talked
about New York City.
We talked about Afghanistan.
It seems like the
segue to where we're at
right now in California.
What do you make about what's
going on with this state?
We both, we talked about it
about a month ago on your show.
I was strongly
considering leaving.
Like I was looking
at real estate.
I had a whole bunch of people,
begging me to come to Dallas.
I would have had a pretty
sweet operation over there.
My feeling right now is I
want to stay and fight here.
- I love that.
- I love SoCal, I love the
weather of course and all that,
but like, I built a good
life here, we've got friends,
I like it here.
It's a freaking mess.
Absolute mess.
I think you're in a bit
of a similar situation
- I am and I didn't think
about staying and fighting
until I spoke to
you, and I've not,
I haven't stopped
thinking about that,
and I think you're right.
I was just in Austin
looking at property,
and boy does that, oh, man.
- No, I know, we
probably, I told you,
we're probably looking
at the same houses.
I'm on Trulia like, man,
what I can get in Austin
compared to this.
- Look at the amount of money
I can save.
It's cheaper to live.
It's the, you know,
I don't pay that 13% tax
- No state income tax.
- or whatever it is, or 18%.
So yeah, I could
save a lot of money,
and what's happening
in California,
it seems is, businesses are
leaving for just that reason,
because it's very expensive
to do business here.
What California
has going for it,
is a very diversified
economy and amazing weather,
and it's just a huge, important
state for a lot of reasons.
But California was
the state that worked,
and we have a democratic
super majority.
And if you look at local
politics, it's, it's just,
anytime you have a super
majority of any group,
I don't care if it's
republican or democrat,
I don't think that's
good for democracy.
Your vote, if you
are someone who leans
even a little bit,
right, doesn't count.
Save it, stay home,
we don't care.
And you aren't getting
elected to local office.
You're not getting elected
to, to government office.
You're not, unless you are pro
big union, across the board.
Good luck, good luck otherwise.
And I'm a member of
a union, I'm in SAG,
so I understand the
value of unions,
but it's expensive
to do business.
And unless you can push
back a little bit or come up
with a compromise, I don't,
I'm not bullish on California.
And that ain't me.
I've talked to some
very smart people
who are economic animals
and all of them agree.
And all of them are
looking to get out,
because it's too expensive.
Why?
I live in, on skid
row, basically.
I'm in Venice.
I've been in Venice
for 25 years.
I love it, but I don't recognize
my town anymore as much.
And you know.
- It's gotten really
bad over there, right?
- It's not just gotten very bad.
It's become profitable,
because developers now
can get these
government contracts.
I mean, I can build you,
I can build you a bunch
of apartments for $200
million on prime, real estate,
on a parking lot, on the
beach, if you'd like,
I'd be happy to do that.
And we can just have, we can
create a homeless apartments,
for people who are
homeless and don't worry
about doing drugs
or anything else,
we're not gonna put any of
those restrictions on you.
You can come and go
as you like, you know?
So, so there is something
that, see, this is not me,
but a scholar I had a
long conversation with
called the homeless
industrial complex.
Once there's money in bidding
and getting homeless shelters
for big developers,
you better be careful.
So, these people need
to be put in treatment.
And the majority of the
people on the street,
it's not a housing problem.
It's not a housing problem.
It's not a housing problem.
It is a mental health
and addiction problem.
And until we get
serious about that,
we're gonna be in big trouble.
- Is it weird to you watching
it spread in different areas?
So Venice always had a
certain amount of that.
Now it's definitely
more, but like Hollywood,
which also always
had a certain amount,
it's like kind of
taken over Hollywood.
If you just go to straight up,
especially now where there
aren't as many other people
on the streets.
Now, it just seems
like all there are,
kind of like transient
people, and homeless,
and tents and, you know.
- Well, you...
- And as that inches closer
to West Hollywood, now it'll
inch closer to Beverly Hills,
and that, that then is
when it gets pushed
- Oh my god.
- the other way, right?
- Yeah, well, you know,
they have their own
police force, but Prop 47,
and you can't, it's
not criminalized.
They're all kinds of these.
I voted for prop 47, 'cause
the way it was phrased,
and it had the, it had
the, again on the ballot,
as I'm voting, I went,
well this makes sense.
I don't want kids to be in
a revolving door of crime
and police chiefs back it.
- Callen, did you
read the whole thing?
- I didn't.
- That's it.
- I didn't have time.
I am remiss.
- But that's how they
get you in this state,
I think more than any other.
During the last election,
there was this one thing
on the ballot about,
you know, do you want it?
It was something like this,
do you want to put $500
million into education
for, you know, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah,
and then there's essay
just a giant, crazy essay
on the whole thing,
and I skipped all the
way to the bottom,
and on the bottom it says,
"This can only be repealed
or reversed by popular vote,"
but nobody ever says, "Okay,
now we'll take the money
"from the kids."
But that's government 101.
- That's right.
- We sell it, exactly.
- Sell it.
- The packaging thing
you're talking about.
- It'll never go away.
- Nobody reads
the fine print and
then you throw it back
on the people to be
like, "Oh, you'll have
"to take care of this."
- Deal with this.
There's always blow back.
There's always a ripple effect.
No matter what the
intentions are, you know?
We've spent something like
$3 trillion on programs
for the poor.
How's that going?
How's it going?
You know, it's very difficult.
I think at the end of the day,
it's not about right or left.
You gotta ask yourself,
do you really think
that a bloated bureaucracy
called the federal government
is the first line of defense?
Is that the best way to
solve these problems?
Is it?
I don't, I don't,
I don't think so.
Is government gonna
keep families intact?
Is a government
official or a bureaucrat
who studies family
law or whatever,
going to keep your
family intact?
Are they gonna, are they
gonna get you to take care
of your kids?
Are they gonna get you
the skill set you need
in the 21st century, the
ever-changing 21st century?
It's a question.
Maybe the answer is
yes in some cases,
but I don't know if
that's always the answer,
and you gotta ask
those questions.
The problem we run into is we
go, "Well, I'm a republican,
"I'm a democrat, I'm
left, I'm right."
No, no, no, hold on,
hold on, hold on.
Let's go into, what
percentage of your money
do you want to give
the government every
year, every day?
I pay something
like 52% in taxes.
So half my day, half my year
is working for someone else.
Half my day, half my year
is working for someone else.
So how much more do
you want from me?
What do you want?
We can negotiate this.
- Especially in this biz
where you also gave a lot
to your agent, and your
lawyer, it's like, no, no,
it's not cry me a
river, it's just
to know what the reality is.
- To spend one dollar,
I gotta make two.
It's always been
the case for me.
It's fine, so that's you,
I'm giving you half my money.
Now, is it being spent wisely?
I bet you, I could find
cases where it's not,
and that's just the way it
is when you're a giant state
and federal
bureaucracy, it just is.
So is there a better
way to do this?
Is there?
You know, I have my
charities that I, that I do,
I have my own personal things.
So I think there is.
And I think that we
have to be creative,
and I think that creativity,
and beating bad ideas
with better ideas
comes from individuals.
I don't think it comes
from group think.
I think group
think is dangerous,
and I think group
think is oppressive,
and I think group think
is, becomes orthodoxy
and tyrannical, and if
you disagree with me,
try to get somebody on the
board of any corporation
to speak, honestly
and with nuance
about any of these
topics, they'll all say,
"I'm not touching that one."
There's something
wrong with that.
There's something wrong
with the fact that people
on boards who are
reasonable, thoughtful, go,
there's something wrong
with, when the entire board
of Nike, which is all
white, pretty much
has to take these very
sort of like what,
"And another thing,
we're not racist at all."
And then, you know, they do
a lot for the communities
of color and stuff.
- Where do they make
their shoes, by the way?
Is there any problems with that?
- Maybe, maybe not, again,
a very good company,
and a very, you know,
profitable company,
and they do employ a lot,
but so goes the dance.
So goes the dance here.
This is the dance we've
been doing for a long time.
And I'm an optimist because
this country is a great,
is the great experiment.
That's what we called it, right?
It is the great experiment.
It's like that famous story,
whether it's true or not,
when Abraham Lincoln
came out and said,
"What'd you do in there?"
"We created a republic,
Madam, if you can keep it."
It's a great, it's a
great way to say it.
So I don't know.
I don't know, man.
I think we have to keep to
the fact that this country
is also built on a contract,
which is keep your promises,
don't take what
doesn't belong to you,
and if you violate those
first two principles,
then you have to have courts
that can make it right and okay.
And all of that requires
an objective mindset,
and an objective set of laws,
and objective institutions.
- You know, Callen, I
should end it right there,
'cause that was a beautiful.
- Well, there's no music to it.
I like to have a little
music swell if you could.
- We could put
something in post.
- And I wanted a fan, but my
hair, it's not long enough,
I'd just like to have.
- It's all amazing.
That was a beautiful,
perfect ending,
- Thank you.
- but you've led me
to the obvious question,
- Good.
- then to really end this thing,
which is all right, you're
gonna stay in California,
you're making a lot of sense,
people like ya', governor?
(Bryan laughing)
I mean, would you ever
get into politics?
'Cause this is, this is,
it happens all the time.
I get people in
here who are great,
thoughtful, interesting, open,
decent, all of that stuff.
And then it's like, well, all
right, do you want to get in?
And it's what people
ask me all the time,
and I'm like, "No freaking way."
- I like stand up too much.
You know, I will never
stop being a comic.
- Well Trump's basically
doing stand up.
- Yeah, he is.
Yeah, I would never want to
do politics because I think
that if I were in
Gavin Newsom's place
or Eric Garcetti's place, and
I've been critical of them,
because I don't know
what it is to be them,
and I don't know what
it is to have their job,
but I think that I would
probably find myself
in a very similar
position as those guys,
and I'd probably go, "Ooh, I
was a little harsh on that."
'Cause I had a conversation
with Arnold
Schwarzenegger about that.
I was with John Leguizamo
and I, and I talked to him
about what it was
like to be governor.
And I got some pretty
amazing insight,
and one of the things you'll
always hear of someone
in power say, whether they're
governor or president,
they always say the same thing,
which is, "I didn't have
nearly as much power
"as people think I did.
"I didn't any power," a
lot of times they'll say.
"I couldn't do anything."
The founding fathers
wanted a country like that.
They wanted government
to move slowly.
They didn't want power to
rest in one person's hands.
Thank God.
So look at the amount
of pushback Trump gets.
Thank God.
So I love doing what I do.
I love being a comic.
That's my that's all I
care about sometimes.
That's when I feel
the most alive.
I think if I had to
be a politician and go
through all of that and
the frustration of having
to compromise and to see
how things really work,
you know, it's like
that expression,
"You don't want to see
how sausages are made,
"or laws are made," and
you'd have to, you'd have to,
you'd have to lie because,
it's the way it is.
- All right, we gotta just
put up with these pansies
- So the point is, I'm running
for governor.
- The point is you're
running for governor.
Callen 2024.
- Who knows?
- If you're looking
for more honest
and thoughtful
conversations about comedy,
instead of the nonstop yelling
you get everywhere else,
check out our comedy playlist,
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