Hey everyone, thank you for joining us for another middle-ground episode.
Be sure to stick around after the episode because we're going to talk about how we make middle ground
and also what we've learned from them.
Enjoy.
In all our conversations so far, nobody has brought up the rights of the fetus person.
Doesn't she have the right... the choice to live?
~But with that being said, that's a cluster of cells
that could not, a lot of the time, exist outside of a woman's world.
~Hi, my name is Jolene, I am a college student and I'm pro-life.
~Hello everyone. My name is Timmerie and I'm pro-life,
and I talk about these issues on my radio show "Trending with Timmerie".
~I'm Jason. I'm a Youtuber called "Pastor Jason Answers". So, yes, I'm a Christian pastor.
~My name is Liz, I work in tech, and I am pro-choice.
~My name is Kimberly. I am a college student and I am pro-choice.
~Hey guys, I'm Natalie. I'm a poet teaching artist and mental health advocate, and I am pro-choice.
PROMPT: I know someone who's had an abortion.
~I guess I'll go first. I have had two myself.
The first one, I was not emotionally stable. I was not financially stable.
I was about to get evicted from where I was living and my family wouldn't- you know,
The the list goes on and on.
I was on drugs, it wasn't something that I would be able to do nor I wanted to do.
And recently, I had a miscarriage in which, because it was incomplete, I had to go in for a DNC
which is instant abortion procedure. And at this point in my life, I want to have kids
and so, you know, that experience as well was something that was...
equally as difficult for me as the first one that I had to go through voluntarily
~I'm so sorry you went through that experience.
~Church supports WP CC which is an organization that
helps women during pregnancy after pregnancy and post abortion counselling.
More than the people that I've met there, my mom almost had an abortion because of me.
She doesn't tell me the whole story because she doesn't like talk about it, but
her life was in danger and everybody was saying "just abort the baby,"
which is totally legitimate if the woman's life is in danger, I believe.
But I'm actually glad that uh, she didn't abort me but had the baby anyway.
~I was 18 when I got my first abortion and at that time I was living with my grandmother.
They were very conservative-raised as Catholic Christians.
They would probably kick me out of the house if they were to find out I was pregnant.
I was still you know, fresh out of high school,
did not have you know, the monetary needs to raise a child and no place to live.
So... yeah.
~I have had both friends and extended family members who've  had abortions,
and I'm sure the two of you can speak to this, it's a decision that you carry with you, the rest of your life.
and I have seen people two years later and I've seen people thirty years later
still struggling with the aftermath of abortion
And that's why I think us women deserve so much more than abortion
I know several people who have been like on the line like wanting to but I don't know anyone who actually
Went through with the process
I have two little brothers and when my mom was pregnant with the youngest one
He was not planned and he was I mean, I guess you could say at that time
He was an unwanted child throughout her pregnancy
She just was thinking of how much of burden this could be if my mom did not believe that life begins at conception
Then she probably would have gotten an abortion. But my baby brother. Well now he's older
He has impacted every single one of our lives in such a positive way that I just could not imagine him not
being on this planet and it really made me think that
When life is born like life is beautiful and life is so much more beautiful than there not being any life at all
I think that's sometimes true
There's so many other factors
People who don't have all of those things right who don't have a family who don't maybe have a partner who don't have stable housing
Is that going to be the right circumstance for that child?
Is that gonna be more damaging?
thinking about the quality of the life that you can provide because you are the caretaker of that being and if you are not in
a position to do that that is the same as child abuse to me and as sad as that is because you know
That's something we can't ignore. I still believe that
that is a life and it is just as valuable as someone who
May be growing up in a rich family and like have everything and have all these resources
I believe both those lives are equally valuable. See I was just going to say under what you're seeing
It sounds like quality of life is what determines whether or not someone should live it and in that case
It's the poor people who are preyed upon to have
Abortions and it's support people who then spend years struggling with post-abortion syndrome as well
And so what with cutting off access to abortion what what?
Solution is that going to provide to those low-income individuals people who may not be able to have access to health care?
There are crisis pregnancy centers across the nation waiting with the financial means to help women
Who are facing crisis pregnancy. The reality is is when people choose to have their children and they ask for help
Let's say family cuts them off. There are other people willing to give help if we ask have you had to receive
Kind of benefits before? no, but I've worked with hundreds upon hundreds of women who have. So based on my own experience
You know, I'm someone who previously granted I don't have children, but I would had previously had to be on food stamps
I previously have received
Unemployment benefits pretty much anything that you can name
there was a point in my life where I had to be able to get that kind of assistance and
It's not as much money as you think and a lot of these individuals are still struggling to be able to
Provide for not only their baby but themselves and I think it's really unfair
to
Put a woman and you know, this this now baby in that situation against their own
you know against their own will
Men should not be a part of the conversation
It's not a part of a man's body
It's not a life that they are personally bringing into the world
And I don't think that they should be the end-all be-all to make that choice
Well, I'm the only guy here and sometimes even before I speak a word
I feel judged that you have no say because it's not your body, but I have two beautiful kids
What if my wife didn't want kids what if she had an abortion without my say without my advice doesn't this affect my life too
A lot. I actually think everyone has to be a part of every conversation
Now, I don't think men should be the dominant voice in the conversation at all
But I do think that everybody has to work together to create solutions to really large issues
And so yeah
I think men absolutely have to be a part of it but not the dominant voice the realities it takes two to tango, right?
I think we can all agree on that and the chromosomes come from both the mother and the father that baby
Was a part of the father as well. I mean, I I guess I didn't necessarily want to say that men
absolutely shouldn't be a part of the
Conversation where I see it is a lot of the individuals who are trying to make these laws right now are men
well
I think that there still needs to be a
conversation between a couple
I don't think that it's fair for anybody other than the woman having to go through this
Make that final decision in what she wants to do with her body. As a guy I feel like
my
My statements are more opinions or suggestions that it doesn't really matter
Thank you for your input
But we really need to make the decision based on what the woman feels and I feel like I'm more of a second-rate
Citizen compared to the woman who has to make the real decision. Yeah
I mean, I find that that's like the one place men feel that way versus women
There's very many instances in our lives where we don't get the first say and we don't get the last say either
we're
Asking people permission to do things with ourselves
And I think for me that's what's really problematic when it wasn't legal
people still got abortions and they just died in alleys and so is that
What we're okay with as a society because people don't have access and don't have choices. I'm not okay with that.
I Feel as if my rights are in danger
Some of these laws are allowing for non-medical physicians to perform abortions and operate without a medical license
So my right to good quality health care is being diminished
But also my right as you know one day wanting to be a parent parental notification
Those laws are being swept away and so parents who love their children
More than the facility workers or at least should right
They should be able to talk to their child before they make such a serious decision and the parents rights are going away
At the end of the day, that's not their choice to make that's not their body
and so I I get I guess I just I get where you're
Coming from from like an emotional standpoint
but I believe that an abortion is a medical procedure and
I don't think that anybody else should really be involved
Other than the person that's having it for me
I want women to have the right to make a choice and
There are states that are saying we will make the choice for you and that's problematic to me on an equitable level
Attaching jail time and all these things for women. I don't see the same thing happening for men
It's not the women who would be going to jail
It's people who are providing abortion is that that would be facing criminal charges
So I understand the fear and I think there's a lot of could we agree? There's a lot of media hype that's
creating a lack of communication and the lack of clarity in a lot of areas and I as a
Pro-lifer do not believe that any woman seeking abortion should face criminal charges
This is me, chill
Well as an American I highly value my rights and freedom to do what I want with my body and things like that
These days I've been reconsidering my views on gun control because you know, you know
There's mass shootings and innocent people are dying. We have to do something about that and and if I have to
Step back and give up some rights to own certain guns. I'll consider it because
Innocent people are dying and I see it as the same thing with abortion and in all our conversation so far
Nobody has brought up the rights of the fetus person
Doesn't she have the right but the choice today?
But with that being said that's that's a cluster of cells that could not a lot of the time
exist outside of a woman's womb
III guess I'm just gonna have to agree to disagree with you on that in an ideal world
Totally if there were resources and access and support like we wish there were
I'd be like totally nobody should have abortions because we have a society that supports people
But we actually don't live in a society where that's true for everyone. And so that's the issue. Let's try
right
if you don't draw the line at conception, then where's the line and
when I hear people say
Oh like you don't have the right to choose what to do with my body because it's my body
I feel like I do because if you were to have a pet animal and it was in your backyard
And you beat that thing to death?
I feel like we all have moral judgment and we I would stand up for that buts
Not my animal and it's not my backyard. It's not my house
I still believe in my moral compass that I should have the right to speak up about it because I genuinely believe that that is
wrong
Abortion is killing human life. And so that is why I feel that I have the right to say something about it
The responsibility of pregnancy prevention is currently equal between men and women
Other than in cases of rape or incest
I believe that pregnancy prevention is equal because we enter into sexual intimacy both willingly
Yeah, I agree with that
it takes two people that make those choices whether it's abstinence whether it's using
Contraceptives consent is what I think where prevention starts
Okay, I'll admit it
It is easier for us. I mean, even if there is a birth control pill
Culturally today, we're not taking that we're not gonna snip and you know it it's easier. Sorry
No, I agree. They always push it towards women if you don't want to get pregnant
Yes, there are condoms out there for men to prevent pregnancy. However
It's not nobody wears. Yeah, that's true
And they've also tried to come up with, you know various different birth control methods for men
No, no, and it's the overwhelming response. There's so many side effects
There's the possibility of this and that and you know, I've had a friend that had a stroke because of her birth control
You know and I think that it's really unfair that that responsibility is solely being placed on women
Well, and also if it's gonna be solely on me to prevent then it is solely on me to make a choice thereafter
Yeah, I agree with what you guys are saying
But these conversations need to be said before any action is done for both people to understand that they are both
Responsible for this I agree with you and one of the things that I always think about in the conversation of abortion is education
Right any education around our bodies or just consent right or just rape all of these things are not
conversations that are widely happening I think about my own experience of sex Ed in high school was taught by the gym teacher
Who was also teaching us driver's training?
Right anything there and so I think about
What was the quality of
The educational experience I got and typically in my partnerships
I am the first person that my partner has encountered that is willing and able to have a conversation
About sex, about birth control, about all of these things. So it's interesting that we're like, we should be having these conversations
But people don't have the emotional intelligence to be having these conversations or the emotional immaturity which is unfortunate
But it's the reality right and so it does leave the onus on the person who is gonna be most impacted
Which in this case would be women
Someone from the other side sincerely tried to empathize with me
Yeah
You too Marie have
empathized with me the most thank you for just understanding me and then just
You know throwing your insight out there
yeah, now I really appreciated how you were able to understand each different situation and circumstance and be able to like agree and just
Agree to disagree with everything that's being said
I think that this is how real conversations usually occur and
It shows people that we don't have to avoid a topic
and so thanks for listening and thanks for sharing and I have to tell the two of you like I'm sorry and on behalf of
Any person who's pro-life who has ever made you feel
Criminalized for having had an abortion and I do not believe that anyone should face jail time for having had an abortion. Like I
Understand your circumstances and I want you to know that
The dude...
Feel bad, I feel like I picked on you too. Yes, that was the odd man out
But uh, I believe in women's rights equal pay for equal work. There should be more representation in government
my big thing is that
The fetus is not just a blob of tissue
It's a real person a him or her and maybe I didn't get that a cross for you to
grasp that on my perspective
I hope that it didn't come across that we are not Empathetic cuz I know for sure I was really trying to listen to
You and trying to find a commonality. I was actually like oh interesting
Okay, you think this and what and why like, I think I think those things are super valuable to not have the same perspective
But still be able to find spaces to a line because that's where the real work is not us all agreeing
But still there are some basic things we want for humans and women and so if that's true
Then we all have to do some sort of work in some sort of bending in places to make that be true
Everybody thank you for watching another episode of middle ground. My name is Erin and this is Dan and we are both jubilee directors
So you've directed a lot on middle ground. What is something that you've learned?
having done all that
I think the biggest thing for my own self growth is it's made me aware of where my
ignorance is like this has forced me to really sit down and hear opinions that I have shut out more often than not and
It's made me have to confront that and grow from that and be more open
Yeah, I think once you hear it come from another human being you have to see the human being
Coming with that opinion. Yeah
Well, if you guys have any thoughts on what you've learned for middle ground
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