KAREN FOLEY: Welcome back to
the Student Hub Live Faculty
of Arts and Social
Sciences Showcase.
Well, in these
next two sessions,
we're going to
take a look at two
of the postgraduate offerings
that the Faculty of Arts
and Social Sciences have.
And we're going to look in
particular at two new modules.
The first that we're
going to talk about
is the MA in Philosophy, Part 2.
But we're going to
take a little look
at what it's like to study MAs
at a distance with the Open
University.
I am joined by Sean Cordell
and Christina Chiasmo.
That wasn't said right, was it?
CHRISTINA CHIMISSO: "Chimisso."
KAREN FOLEY: "Chimisso!"
Sorry!
I knew I'd do that!
Terrible!
CHRISTINA CHIMISSO:
It's fine, it's fine.
KAREN FOLEY: Thank you.
Well, thank you for joining us.
CHRISTINA CHIMISSO: [LAUGH]
KAREN FOLEY: And I wonder
if we can start briefly
by talking about what
it's like to study
at a distance with
the Open University.
Because, whilst the postgraduate
offering is relatively
small in terms of our numbers--
because the OU just have,
you know, 174,000
students or so,
so we're huge in terms
of what we've got.
But I think one of the
things that we often forget
is that, whilst the postgraduate
is proportionately small,
there are a lot of
students doing it.
SEAN CORDELL: There are.
In the first part, there's
over 100, which is great.
But one thing I would
say is, I wouldn't
take that to mean,
if you do an MA,
that you are somehow out
on your own or isolated.
There are lots of ways in which
we support students and a lot
of way we foster and
encourage a student community.
That's the important
thing, I'd say.
To that respect, it's
similar, or as good or better,
than a lot of other things.
KAREN FOLEY: And we're
going to talk specifically
about the second part of the MA.
So the first part, Part 1,
we did the FASS showcase
last year.
And we talked
broadly about that.
But, very, very briefly,
could you just fill students
in on how the MA
programme works,
with the first year being
the introductory level,
the second year being a lot more
specific with the dissertation?
CHRISTINA CHIMISSO: Yes.
I mean, the two levels
are quite different sorts,
in terms of size, I would say.
Because basically
the second part
is twice the number of
credits than the first part.
And what is really special
about this, the second part,
that includes a dissertation.
So there will be studyings
of themes and authors
in a similar way
as the first part.
But, in addition, we
also have a dissertation
where students can really
choose their topics
and write an extended
essay [INAUDIBLE] extended,
12,000 words.
So there is a very serious
research component.
KAREN FOLEY: Which is fantastic.
Now, people can go and find
out about the first year.
And I really want to
focus on the second year.
And one of the things that
we've spoken a lot about today
is the extent to which academic
interests reflect in some
of the module materials.
And that's one thing I
wanted to talk about here,
because we have a very vibrant
department, in Philosophy.
And you all bring your
own research interests
into something, and those are
really reflected in the module.
So, whilst students
have choice, there's
also the discourse that
you've currently got going on
and that things that
you're interested in.
And you've brought
some books along.
CHRISTINA CHIMISSO: Yes, we did.
Actually, those books
are our primary sources,
let's say, the chance
for students to read
classics, modern
classics, directly.
You can see Nietzsche,
Foucault, and Hannah Arendt.
These books refers
to two blocks,
let's say, which maybe I'll
talk about those two blocks,
and maybe Sean can talk
about the other two
and why are they
special, [LAUGH] again,
and special in many ways.
Because they are about
what we normally call,
with an expression I
don't like very much,
"continental philosophy."
So most of the MA, part
1, and half of part 2,
is what we call "analytical
philosophy," which
is mostly in English.
This part is a bit of
another style of philosophy.
As you see, the author,
there, are German and French,
but it is also
historical because we're
talking about Nietzsche, 19th
century, and the other two,
I would say, giant of
20th-century philosophy.
So there is also a variety of
skills that students acquire.
They will be able to deal
very well with both tradition
and philosophy.
And that, I think,
is really a bonus.
Not all MAs in Philosophy give
you this chance-- actually,
very few indeed.
So I think that's really
special about this MA.
KAREN FOLEY: So [INAUDIBLE]
curriculum, both
in the analytical
and-- do you call
them the "European"
or "continental"?
SEAN CORDELL: Either.
Christina doesn't
like either, so--
KAREN FOLEY: [LAUGH]
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
CHRISTINA CHIMISSO: Yeah.
I would say, the book are
about these two blocks.
Maybe you want to say
something about the two--
SEAN CORDELL: I think
that's absolutely right.
I mean, these are in
a different tradition
from the other blocks.
And one of the exciting things
about that is that students--
in the dissertation, when they
go on to think about their own
topic--
it's a perfectly
reasonable thing
to do to think
about, for example,
is there such a divide
between these traditions?
That itself is up
for grabs, and it's
one of the exciting
things about getting
into philosophical research,
is that that opens a question.
You might want to say that, as
a matter of history of ideas,
that isn't such a sharp
divide, and why, and so on.
Similarly, you
might want to draw
things that have grabbed your
attention from this part,
roughly speaking, this part
of the bloc, with these texts,
and the other parts--
which, incidentally, one
is on the emotions, which
involves a philosophy of mind
and a philosophy of psychology,
in terms of what emotions are
and what they do.
The final part, which is
mine-- so, best till last--
[LAUGHTER]
--is a specific problem
in moral philosophy
which I won't go into now.
But you will have proceeded that
with Nietzsche, who in a sense
challenges the whole premise
of Western moral philosophy.
And then we move
on to my bit, which
is exactly about some question
in exactly that philosophy.
It's a perfectly good
thing for students to say,
well, I'm actually
intrigued by what Nietzsche
says about the
whole basis of this,
and I'm going to talk about
why this fails or, conversely,
what's wrong with Nietzsche.
I mean, I'm rambling a
bit, but these are just
things that students can get
into, for their dissertation,
and develop and take it
in their own direction.
And that's what's really
good about [INAUDIBLE]..
KAREN FOLEY: And I think,
at the second stage
of postgraduate study, you
know, people are really
starting to take their
own ideas and really
being critical about the extent
to which they can relate things
together and possibly come
up with something quite new,
as a way of thinking about
things or interpreting things.
So having a real
breadth is really
going to give people a lot
of diversity of choice.
Which can be a great
thing, but equally it
can make choosing
things difficult.
And one of the things I
like about your module,
in particular, is the extent
to which you're really
supporting students
through that process
so that they don't end up with
all these existential questions
that they then
can't go and answer
in a long dissertation,
et cetera.
So tell us, then, about
how the tuition works
and how people may
not feel isolated,
as you say, Sean, with
this group of students
who are all studying together.
SEAN CORDELL: OK, so the
tuition, as we've said, is four
taught blocks.
It then leads into a second
part, which is dissertation.
But it doesn't just sort of go,
you know, from there to there.
There's quite a strong
transition phase.
There are two pieces
of assessed work
which are exactly
on the dissertation.
One is a proposal.
It's what we call--
well, is it formative,
when it gets marked?
Or is that summative?
[LAUGHTER]
Anyway, it's assessed--
[LAUGHTER]
--it's assessed in marks,
and [INAUDIBLE] proposal
with your tutor
about what you're
going to do for a dissertation.
So that's one phase.
And then the second
piece of marked work
is actually a draft
chapter of that.
So you're not going to
go straight into this
sort of, oh, what do I do now?
It's very sort of phased,
planned, and managed transition
into the dissertation.
Your own tutor will then
first mark that dissertation.
So you've gone through this
process with the tutor.
There's also live
tutorial sessions.
All of this is online, but
now, with the advantage
of Adobe Connect live,
real-time sessions
with the tutor, with
the tutor group,
and cluster sessions
on the topic.
So there's lots of support.
And also the student
forums, where we encourage
students to talk to each other.
And, at this level, one thing
you would do which you perhaps
would be dissuaded from
at undergraduate level
is actually talk with your tutor
and students about your work,
about your draughts,
as it goes along.
You know, it's not just TMA,
TMA, [INAUDIBLE] dissertation
[INAUDIBLE] what do we think
of this, or how could this go,
it's a much more
developmental, organic process.
KAREN FOLEY: So you're
almost writing in stages
and getting feedback as you're
going through, really building.
SEAN CORDELL: Exactly, yeah.
CHRISTINA CHIMISSO: May I just
add something very quickly?
Even before the
first draft, there
is a lot of support
and guidance,
even in choosing your topic.
It's not that you're just
left with a lot of ideas,
so you have to pick
one, and you're not
sure which one is a good one
for a dissertation, right?
You will have, in the
teaching material,
but also in tutorials,
a lot of guidance
in how to choose
a topic and which
topics may be good topics.
So you can come
up with your own,
but you can also choose one
that is proposed to you.
So it's really up to the
student what they do.
They're never alone, really.
[LAUGH]
KAREN FOLEY: No, exactly.
So, in the first
year, they've really
been taught the skills,
the ideas, et cetera.
The second idea, there's
some taught aspects,
and then you sort
of build gently
into the actual
dissertation, which
forms the latter part,
then, of that second stage.
CHRISTINA CHIMISSO: Yes.
KAREN FOLEY: Yeah?
CHRISTINA CHIMISSO: Yeah.
So it should be a very
progressive way, a staged way,
to get to the dissertation.
It's not a sort of shock.
It comes on a solid base, let's
say, of knowledge and skills.
KAREN FOLEY: Brilliant.
Now, Sean, you shied away
from your module chapter.
But you can't come on here
and say, well, our research
interests really
influence what we're
putting into these modules.
So what I wanted to ask you both
is, bearing in mind students
are having these
questions, can you
tell us how you guys got
into this in the first place,
and some of the key
things, areas of concern,
or questions, that may matter
to you, to give students
an idea of some of
the sorts of issues
that they may end
up grappling with,
through their dissertation
on the module?
CHRISTINA CHIMISSO:
Shall I start?
I mean, I have to be honest.
When we had the
first meeting and we
had to decide about topics,
I came up with three topics.
Because, for me, they
were all very interesting.
And then we end up choosing
power, and I wrote about power.
Well, I think they have
two strong reasons why
I wanted to do that.
One is the topic itself.
I mean, power, power is very
important to understand it
for our social life, but
also for our private life,
at all levels, if
you think about it.
And we talk about power in
the sense of power for people,
but also power in the
sense of empowerment.
And actually the two
authors I focus on,
which is Foucault
and Arendt, they
talk about power in very,
very different ways.
Actually, it's ironic,
because I don't if you
can see the book,
from home or whatever,
but Arendt's book is,
the title is On Violence.
And actually she
argues that power
is the opposite of violence.
It's quite different.
But I mentioned
these two authors.
The second reason why I wanted
to write about this topic,
because these two very
important philosophers, Foucault
and Arendt, first of all
are very important authors
to read, for students.
They give you really
a very good foundation
in twentieth-century, let's
call it, "European philosophy."
And, you know,
Foucault is used--
Arendt, as well-- not
just by philosophers.
I mean, social scientists and
in a variety of disciplines.
So they're very important.
And they have these
two radical ideas.
So-- sorry, to sum up--
I'm talking too much, here--
was the topic itself so
important, philosophically,
but also for everybody,
as a reflection
point for everybody, how
we deal with our life
with other people?
And the philosophers I
could bring in who I thought
were really excellent for
students to get to know.
KAREN FOLEY: So these are some
of the great thinkers that
are strategically important
for students to understand.
CHRISTINA CHIMISSO: Yes.
KAREN FOLEY: But,
equally, many students
might do an MA in Philosophy
just because they're
really interested in it,
because it gives them
great skills, because they
want a masters in something
interesting, because they like
the idea of different ways
of thinking about the world.
And so, in a sense,
even, I guess,
if you haven't experienced
some of this before,
you'd still be picking up
some of those great ideas.
CHRISTINA CHIMISSO: Absolutely.
Also, some of the ideas
that they put forward
about these good philosophers
are rather counterintuitive,
sometimes.
So they really challenge
our everyday ways
of looking at our life.
Our ways of looking at our
own lives may change, after--
or should change,
maybe, or at least
should become more complex--
after we read
these philosophers.
And we may actually
dislike what they say.
We can argue against it.
We don't have to accept it.
[INAUDIBLE] philosophy's always
open to any view and opinion.
KAREN FOLEY: Yeah.
And, Sean, what did you decide
was an important contribution,
and did you get your way?
SEAN CORDELL: I did!
KAREN FOLEY: [LAUGH]
SEAN CORDELL: I just--
[LAUGH] I did get my way.
It went down all well.
It is a-- and what
I'm talking about is
something, a phenomenon or a
problem, called "dirty hands."
The idea of dirty hands is that
you can be forced, be dragged,
into doing something
that you have to do--
and in one sense is right but in
another sense is terribly evil.
And why that's
philosophically interesting
is that some people say that's
just-- that can't happen.
Either what you do is, in the
end, right or, in the end,
wrong-- stop.
[INAUDIBLE] nothing to say.
What's the fuss about?
And other people--
probably me included,
on balance-- say, no, no, there
are situations in which you are
just, because of
the way the world is
and the way other peoples
are, you are just-- you
are getting your hands dirty.
And some people say that
that's a particular problem
for politics.
So people in power, because
of the nature of politics
and representation
of various groups
with different interests and
cases of supreme emergency,
like war, they have
to do things like--
you know, they'd have
to do nasty things,
and that's part of the job.
Now, the question as
to how I got into this.
Are you sitting comfortably?
No, actually, as an OU
undergraduate many years ago,
one of my teachers on
the module materials
posed a question,
basically, which
has intrigued me ever since.
And I got into research, with
that, into MA and PhD research,
with that very question.
And it's an example of where
research can take you, right?
And carried that on and
am still carrying it on.
And this question--
KAREN FOLEY: What
was the question?
SEAN CORDELL: Well, the
question there was about,
it was about an approach to
ethics called "virtue ethics"
and very much based, on
the teacher that we had,
in Aristotle.
And the question was,
the teacher seemed
to talk about this thing
called "virtue ethics"
and the way, in its
contemporary guise,
doesn't really fit
political theory.
But then everybody seems
to say, move on-- like,
don't mention the war.
You know?
Oh, OK.
And I was sort of thinking,
well, yes, do mention the war.
I mean, let's keep
asking this question,
and that's where I went.
And that's my doctoral
work ended up.
And, through that,
and through thinking
about different social roles and
the way in which social roles
get us into situations
which pose moral problems,
I sort of spun off into
this problem of dirty hands
and then thought, would it be
a great thing to do for the MA.
And, yes, I got my way.
Does that answer your question?
KAREN FOLEY: Sort of.
It does.
But how do you, then--
because this is a massive
thing, in terms of--
I mean, how do you
actually teach that?
Because I can see that
that could be just,
you know, an MA
within its own right.
So how have you been selective?
And what sorts of examples
have you used, there?
And how are you then
encouraging students to think?
SEAN CORDELL: I start
with two examples.
One is a classic
one from history.
It involves Winston Churchill
and the situation of war
with Germany.
Another one is a familiar one.
It's from my own
actual family history.
It'll probably take
too long to go through,
but that is a
situation in which--
It's very sort of
EastEnders drama, you know?
It's from way back
when, so no one's
offended by [LAUGH]
bringing it up and using it.
And these are presented
as, have these people
just got dirty hands?
They're forced to do things
that are wrong but, nonetheless,
somehow are justified.
That's where we start.
And then we get the question
of, some philosophers have just
said this is a real, this
is a genuine problem,
a fact of life.
And others have said no, it's--
you know, you've got that wrong.
So that's one key
debate we start with.
Another one is, does it just
affect, or primarily affect,
those who are in power
in politics, which feeds
into the question of power.
Again I don't think it does.
I think it can fit into all
sorts of social situations
and roles, which
is where I kind--
where it grabbed me.
KAREN FOLEY: So
you're again looking
at the application of ideas
to some specific examples
and also thinking
about conceptually
how we're categorising
who is categorising
things as right or wrong--
SEAN CORDELL: Yeah.
KAREN FOLEY: --and
what that means.
SEAN CORDELL: In terms
of the module, overall,
this is a conceptual
problem in moral philosophy,
as distinct from, really,
a deep textual analysis
and looking at a
history of philosophy.
And we do look at philosophers.
But it's not that
we're reading, you
know, a classic
sort or anything.
There are several different,
probably about 14 or 15
articles through that block.
KAREN FOLEY: Brilliant.
Let's take a quick
trip to our hot desk
and see what HJ and
Damon are talking about.
HJ: I think the main
thing we're doing
is interpreting the question
we've been set in the widget.
So one was put to me-- would
I steal Karen's biscuits
if I was starving?
KAREN FOLEY: [LAUGH]
HJ: Unfortunately, that's
not a good example,
because, even if
I wasn't starving,
I'm up for nicking
some biscuits.
So, uh--
SEAN CORDELL: But
should you-- should you?
[LAUGHTER]
CHRISTINA CHIMISSO:
That's a good question.
HJ: We've been thinking
about real-life applications.
So, where there's been
natural disasters and people
looting, when there's been
cases of ATMs spitting
out free money,
or what would seem
to be free money,
whether or not we
are able to take that without
any stain on our morality.
But apparently
some think we can.
Damon is in that [LAUGH] group.
[LAUGHTER]
So we're having a lovely debate.
And it's nice to see what the
real-world applications is.
It's not just sitting
and contemplating.
Actually, it comes in a lot.
And we've been talking a
lot about ethics, today,
haven't we, with
recycling and crime,
so we are really enjoying
this, in the chat.
SEAN CORDELL: I missed
the ethics of cycling.
What did that involve?
KAREN FOLEY: No, not cycling.
Sorry, the Philosophy
Department love their cycling.
"Recycling."
SEAN CORDELL:
Recycling-- oh, right.
Sorry.
KAREN FOLEY: [LAUGH]
Don't turn your nose up.
It was very interesting.
SEAN CORDELL: No!
I just thought it might be about
drugs in sport or something.
KAREN FOLEY: No.
Right.
We asked everyone at home--
"In certain drastic
circumstances,
good people have no
choice but do bad things.
Do you agree, or disagree?
Shall we see what they said?
SEAN CORDELL: Yeah.
KAREN FOLEY: 80% said yes.
CHRISTINA CHIMISSO: Oh, wow.
SEAN CORDELL: Mmm!
KAREN FOLEY: Is
that good, or bad?
[LAUGH]
CHRISTINA CHIMISSO: Interesting!
I think it's very interesting.
There is no good or bad.
I mean, you should
have a view, Sean?
KAREN FOLEY: It's just
gone up, now, 83% to 17%.
SEAN CORDELL: I think that's
slightly worrying, because I
think that these
things can happen
but they're rarer than perhaps
people are prepared to admit.
So people, including
philosophers,
are too ready to sort of say,
well, there's just a situation,
you have no choice,
sort of thing.
But perhaps--
I actually think that,
although there also such cases,
they're probably extremely
rare, where you genuinely just
can't--
whatever you do is going
to involve a wrongdoing,
and what you have
to do, in the end,
will involve a wrongdoing, even
if overall it was justified.
KAREN FOLEY: But I wonder if--
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
KAREN FOLEY: --there was,
to some extent, this idea
that you could argue
your way through it,
or that there might be some
logical explanation that might
then vindicate the action.
SEAN CORDELL: Right, good,
well, some people think.
I mean, some people think,
we'll weigh things up
and, in the end, it may--
it may be that you do an awful
thing, and it feels awful,
and you rightly feel,
[INAUDIBLE] it was
so bad that I had to do that.
But what they
think is, we're not
talking about right
and wrong action.
It was just overall right.
We've got a residue
of feeling awful,
because we're moral persons
and we should feel that way.
But did they think it's just
a confusion to say, you know,
that was right and wrong?
I mean, they literally
think-- it's like saying,
you're walking and sitting
down, at the same time.
They think it's that
kind of conceptual mix.
I resist that, but, you
know, that's what they think.
I don't think it's
that much of a problem.
CHRISTINA CHIMISSO: [LAUGH]
KAREN FOLEY: Philosophy,
where you get no clear answer.
[LAUGH]
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
SEAN CORDELL: Well, you do--
CHRISTINA CHIMISSO:
--arguments--
SEAN CORDELL: Yeah,
good arguments.
CHRISTINA CHIMISSO: Yeah?
KAREN FOLEY: So what one
piece of advice, then,
would you give students
who are at the final stage
in their masters?
CHRISTINA CHIMISSO: I mean,
starting this model, you mean,
or--
KAREN FOLEY: Yeah.
Or looking towards
their dissertation,
then, in terms of
that sort of stage
where you're at, what you
might be learning some things
but also maybe you're
in the sort of--
the home run, really.
CHRISTINA CHIMISSO: Yes.
I think the main thing--
this may sound
superficial, but you really
have to be passionate
about your topic.
Do not choose a
topic only because it
looks straightforward,
simple, but you don't really
care about.
I think you should care about--
I mean, to write a dissertation
is a bit of an effort.
I don't want to say you support
and you have a lot of help,
if you do it, but
still you do it.
So I think you have to
care about the topic.
You want perhaps to
construct a good argument,
because you want to
justify something
you believe in, or maybe
in the course material
you have seen something
you're really against
and you want to
argue against that.
But, anyway, I think there
should be really a commitment
on your part.
It's easier to write,
I think, about things
you really care about.
KAREN FOLEY: Yeah.
So choose your topic wisely,
is your piece of advice.
And, Sean, what would you say?
SEAN CORDELL: I'd
agree with all of that
and just say, but be prepared
to challenge your own intuition.
So it's a good place
to start, to think
that Nietzsche is wrong or
there's no such really problem
of dirty hands.
And that's absolutely
great, but you
should be prepared,
along the way,
to meet-- you'll meet challenges
and think, and reevaluate
what you're saying.
And the second thing I'd
just say, stick with it.
It absolutely will
be hard, sometimes,
like anything-- like a lot of
things that are worth doing.
Part of the deal is the hard
work and just see it through.
I don't mean to make
it sound daunting,
but it's a significant
piece of work.
I mean, this is 12,000 words.
Very few students will
have written a piece
that long before.
KAREN FOLEY: Oh,
some of them will,
when they're trying to
do a 1,000-word essay,
they'll certainly have
done that in level 1.
But now it probably
isn't so appealing.
But the whole idea of
revising chapters and things,
that is something quite
unique at master's level.
And possibly at the time
it might feel a little bit
Groundhog Day-ish.
But actually it's
such a massive skill,
to be able to edit your
own work and revisit ideas
that you've put
down for some time
and really work things through.
CHRISTINA CHIMISSO: Absolutely.
And that's a skill
that doesn't only apply
to philosophy in particular.
It's a skill that you can carry
into many other situations.
At the end, you have been able
to have a sustained argument,
to write a piece of
work that is your work
and is a well-written
structure, and you
know how to structure,
um, you know, [INAUDIBLE]
a standard piece of work.
That's an important thing.
It will be with you forever,
because you've done it
and it's yours.
KAREN FOLEY: Well,
thank you very much,
Sean and Christina, for
a wonderful session.
SEAN CORDELL: Thank you
CHRISTINA CHIMISSO: Thank you.
KAREN FOLEY: We're going
to have some videos now.
We're going to look
at the who's who
and then the criminalization
of homelessness,
before our final session
of the day, which
is the MA Crime and
Harm with Sam Fletcher.
So we'll be back in a
few minutes for that.
See you soon.
