We're starting a new book today. Actually
it's not new at all, it's about 2,400
years old. It is Plato's Republic,
probably the most important work in all
of philosophy or at least the most
influential book in all philosophy. I am
reading this book first for a pretty simple
reason actually. So I've read a number of
books here on the channel, gotten a few
comments here there, and I'd like to
participate in a bigger community of
people who are reading and enjoying
books and PewDiePie has started a book
club and his first choice – or I guess his
next choice – is the Republic of Plato,
which is pretty ambitious but I I kind
of like that, so I invite any PewDiePie
fans any nine-year-olds who want to read
Plato's Republic with somebody you won't
want to feel all alone while you're
turning the page and trying to figure
out what Thrasymachus and Glaucon are
talking about, come to the channel,
hit the old subscribe button. I'm going
to try to do one video per book. They're
gonna be pretty long videos because I
think each book is gonna take at least
two hours to get through and the way I
do this is I just read and read out loud
and I kind of tell you what I'm thinking
as I'm going along and hopefully that
makes things a little bit more
interesting for you and if you want to
tell me what you're thinking as we're
reading this, leave a little comment
below I will definitely read it because I
don't get a whole lot of comments. And so
yeah that's that's about it I've talked
a little bit about the Republic before
in the Brave New World series that we
did, so there are certain similarities
between Plato's ideal society and Aldous
Huxley's nightmare society. Some food for
thought there. I do want to recommend a
book before we start that I
read last year. One of the best books I
read last year was called Philosophy
Between the Lines. I believe the author's
name is Michael Metzler and the idea
here is that certain authors have ideas
that are so dangerous that they can't
actually tell you what their idea is.
They have to kind of dance around it and
write esoterically.
And so Metzler's thesis is that Plato was
one of these authors that had such crazy
ideas he couldn't put him in his own
mouth he either had to put him into
Socrates' mouth, or maybe it wasn't even
in Socrates' mouth, he had to put
him in like Thrasymachus's mouth.
This idea is often associated with Leo
Strauss, who's a fairly controversial
philosophical figure of the 20th century
and I haven't read a whole lot of
Strauss, I'd like to read a little bit
more, but I am very interested in the
basic idea, and it certainly seems to be
true on a place like YouTube where
people get demonetised –
thrown off – for saying things that
they're not allowed to. And so if you're
not allowed to speak what's on your mind,
maybe you say something similar to what
you're thinking, or you make a straw man –
I don't know – lots of different
techniques for that. In any event, The
Republic is fairly famous for these
different interpretations. I haven't read
The Republic in a long long time. I think
I only read a few chapters of it
when I was in high school, so I'm looking
forward to getting back to it. I kind of
know about the ideas because they're
just in the intellectual
culture generally, but I think it's gonna
be great to get back to the source here.
So I'm looking forward to reading this,
revisiting the great mind of Plato, and
I'm excited for anybody who wants to
join me for it. So, without further ado, I
am gonna present to you Book One of
Plato's Republic. I'm going to be reading
this CDC Reeve translation. It's in
copyright still. I hope I don't get a
copy strike. I'm going to be really depressed if I
get a copy strike for reading Plato's
Republic on YouTube like you know I'm
not trying to steal a Justin Bieber song
here. So, I don't know, if I get taken down
I'll be switching to a public domain
translation later so enjoy it while you
can. Why did I choose the Reeve version? I did a
little bit of research on these
different translations. This is one of
the newest ones and has received a lot
of praise. One of the big changes from
the original is the way The Republic is
told.
When Socrates is saying well I went down to the pier and I talked to this guy and
then that guy said this and this guy
said that. The way this is rendered, it
kind of takes you out of that frame so
it's more direct of – it just says Glaucon
said this, Cephalus said that, and so you
don't have to like – it's not just
Socrates said this, Socrates said Socrates
said this guy said that Socrates said
this guy said that. So I like to think of
this is like the Lifetime movie
reenactment. So it's supposed to be a
little more exciting in that sense, but
it's also supposed to stick to
the original text very closely, which I
also like. So that's kind of the
extent of my thinking that went into
this. It's the newest one, got good
reviews good enough for me, hope he
doesn't sue me, or take me down here. So
here we go
Plato's Republic. Pull up a chair, get
comfortable in a reading chair, get some
water, and let's go. Let's see... Book One. Okay so
the way this is going to work is I have
the Kindle edition of this CDC Reeve
translation. You'll see a lot of
numbers and braces here. I think these
are the page numbers in the
printed edition, so those will come up a
lot and then all these other things the
like 327a, I'm actually not
sure – so some of these are notes, others
are references to – it's like the
Stevenson text, so when scholars are
trying to cross-reference different
passages – it's like the Bible, you know
the Bible is divided into books,
books are divided into chapters, each
chapter has a verse – in the original
Bible there weren't verses, it was just
some guy, like, decided to break up each
thing into verses, and then the
verses kind of became canonical. So it's
sort of in a similar way, some guy just
came along and broke up the Republic
into little bits so that they could
cross reference each other, so that's – I
think that's what all these like weird
5's and B's,
you know letters and numbers are about
and then also we have actual footnotes
which are hyperlinked here. So that's
that's as far as I know that's kind of
the business going on with that. But
that's not very interesting, so let's
begin Book 1. Socrates narration begins:
okay so I think this is the part where
he's just kind of changed the narrative
structure to make this more engaging so
here's Socrates talking. I went
down to the Piraeus yesterday I think
that that's like the port in Athens
if you've ever been to Athens – it's like 10 miles from the
city center – with Glaucon the son of
Ariston to say a prayer to the goddess
and also because I wanted to see how
they would manage the festival since
they were holding it for the first time
– is this – I don't know which festival this
is – but I do, I do like that this
is like this great work of philosophy
he's like oh yeah me and my buddy just
went down to check out the festival
yesterday it makes makes it more
relatable, you know. I thought the
procession of the local residents was
beautiful but the show put on by the
Thracians was no less so in my view okay
so we got sort of like you ever go to a
parade and they're like ah here's the, I
don't know, firefighters of Tuscaloosa,
and here's the police officers of
Sheboygan – I think that's the same idea
what's going on, like they got they both
had the great floats, the locals and the
Thracians. After we had set our prayer
and watched the procession, we started back toward town, then Polemarchus, the son of
Cephalus, saw us from a distance as we
were hurrying homeward and told his slave
boy to run and ask us to wait for him. The
boy caught hold of my cloak from behind.
Okay, so Socrates and Glaucon are going
to check out the festival,
Polemarhcus sees them
and he sends his his boy to say hold up
Hold up!
Slave: Polemarchus wants you to wait. I
turned around – this is Socrates talking –
and asked where he was. Slave: he's coming
up behind you; please wait for him. Glaucon: all right, we will. Shortly after that
Polemarchus caught up with us
Adeimantus, glaucon's brother, was with
him, and so were Niceratus, the son of
Nikias and some others, all of whom were
apparently on their way from the
procession. I kind of wonder what this what
this is about, you know like he didn't
need to make – he didn't need to put the
festival in here, he didn't need to put
the procession in here. I do think it's
interesting that like – it's people
catching up to Socrates, so this at least
sort of psychologically, this puts
Socrates at – kind of at the forefront
and other people are like whoa, whoa –
Slow down, Socrates, we're trying to
figure out what you're saying. You know
sort of – whatever – the physical situation
mirroring the intellectual situation was
what I'm guessing.
All right, so everybody's coming back from
the procession there. Everybody's in a
good mood, it's like the concert's over,
everybody's happy. Polemarchus: it looks
to me, Socrates, as if you two are hurrying
to get away to town. Socrates: that isn't
a bad guess. Polemarchus: but do you see
how many we are?
Socrates: Certainly. Polemarchus: Well then either you must prove yourself stronger than all
these people, or you'll have to stay here.
Uh-oh, little showdown at the
Piraeus. Socrates says: Isn't there
another alternative still? That we
persuade you that you should let us go?
Okay, so I think I see where this is going.
There's a little – it's like kind of – 
Does might make right?
Polemarchus: But could you persuade us if
we won't listen? Ah, they always listen
in these stories. You know it's like the guy who's captured in a movie or something, and
he's like chained up and he's like talk
like he's like he's talking to the guard,
the guard's like I'm not gonna listen to
anything you say, and he's like, "Well you
know, you know what your boss was just
saying about you?" Similar idea, I think.
I don't really know. Glaucon: there's
no way we could. Polemarchus: well we
won't listen. You'd better make up your
mind to that. Yeah... persuasion is gonna
happen. I also like, kind of, glaucon's
rhetorical pose here – he's like ah like
we couldn't persuade you anyway so
that's – in some ways that's like the most
dangerous persuasive technique with
somebody's like oh yeah you can't
persuade me anything, like "Yeah, no I
couldn't man, you're just so smart, no way
I could persuade you of anything at all,
but you know that guy was talking about
you over there." Adeimantus: You mean to
say you don't know that there's to be a
torch race on horseback for the goddess
tonight? Why didn't you say so?
Socrates: On horseback? That's something
new they're gonna race on horseback and
hand the torches on and relays or what I
do like this translation you'll feel
some modern polemarchus and relays
besides it'll be an all-night
celebration that will be worth seeing
well get up after dinner and go see the
festivities we will meet lots of young
men there and have a discussion so stay
and do as we ask is he really asking I
don't know talking it looks as if we
will have to stay yeah look how many of
them there are no I love this idea
so yeah you see how many of us are here
you're gonna have to stay and have a
philosophical discussion with us we're
not taking no for an answer Socrates if
you think so we must
so so this is kind of Socrates narrating
again we went to Paula Marcus house and
there we found Lysias and youth Adiemus
the Brothers of polemarchus and what's
more through Symmachus of Chalcedon was
there too in charm and titties of
Pinilla and clyde ofone the son of a
wrist Dunamis sorry for butchering these
pronunciations of anybody who knows
Greek more than I do who wants to leave
a little comment I will do my best to
get these right in future installments
polemarchus father cephalus was also
inside ok so we got a bunch of people I
don't know I don't I don't if we need to
keep all these people straight we'll see
alright so Paula mark is his father
cephalus was also inside and I thought
he looked quite old
you see I hadn't seen him for some time
he was sitting on a sort of chair with
cushions and had a wreath on his head as
he had been offering a sacrifice in the
courtyard you don't see that too often
I'm like go over to somebody's house
like oh yeah like what's that wreath on
your head like I just offered a
sacrifice in the courtyard anyway what's
new with you we sat down the sytem since
some chairs were arranged in a circle
there as soon as he saw me cephalus
greeted me
ok I'm gonna pause very briefly here
because cephalus did a little bit of
background reading here on the Republic
and cephalus is a character that some
philosophers ascribe a lot of importance
to so he only shows up like in this
first book I think but Leo Strauss in
particular thought that cephalus was a
very significant character so I'm gonna
be paying very close attention to this
just because I've been kind of kind of
tipped off that maybe maybe he's more
important than he looks I mean maybe not
but me I mean I mean I will be looking
closely at the cephalus character for
that reason alright so cephalus is
talking and he is the father of
polemarchus socrates you don't often
come down to the Piraeus to see us yet
you should if it were still easy
for me to make the trip to town you
wouldn't have to come here on the
contrary we would come to you but as it
is you ought to come here more often I
want you to know you see that in my case
at least as the other pleasures the
bodily ones wither away my appetites for
discussions and their pleasures grow
stronger so please do as I ask have your
conversation with these young men and
stay here with us as you would would
with your close friends and relatives
this is a reasonable request say look
I'm not I'm not here for the pleasure of
the flesh anymore I'm just looking for
some good convo come on come on down to
Piraeus man Socrates says I certainly
will cephalus in fact I enjoy engaging
in discussion with the very old I think
we should learn more from them since
they're like people who have traveled a
road that we too will probably have to
follow what the road is like whether
rough and difficult or smooth and easy
now to be particularly glad to find out
from you what you think about it since
you've reached the point in life the
poet's call old ages threshold is it a
difficult time of life what have you to
report about it so this is this is kind
of interesting as Socrates is definitely
not wrong here like old people are
always trying to tell young people
things and it's not just because they're
bored it's like right no I actually have
lived a full life I know how all this
works like I'm trying to let you know
now I think things are gonna change
enjoy enjoy it while you're young or get
it while you're young depending on the
situation all right so Socrates enjoys
talking with the very old cephalus says
by Zeus Socrates I'll tell you exactly
what I think you see number of us who
are more or less the same age often get
together so as to preserve the old
saying the old saying is that I'm gonna
regret hanging a footnote and might God
ever draw us together like two like I've
got to preserve that thing
when they meet okay so this is okay yeah
this is I think this is there Romeo Club
you know Romeo club's retired old men
eating out as they were they were doing
this even in the fourth century BC the
majority of our members lament longing
for the lost pleasures of their youth
and reminiscing about sex drinking
parties feasts and the other things that
go along with them he's really pretty
open here like most people they'd be
like oh yeah drinking parties feasts and
the other things sex he's just like yeah
sex and all that other great stuff they
get irritated as if they had been
deprived of very great things and it
lived well then but are not living now I
met some old people like that some
others too even moan about the abuse
heaped on old people by their relatives
and for that reason recital litany of
all the evils old age has caused them I
don't think they blame the real cause
Socrates
after all if that were the cause I too
would have had the same experiences at
least as far as old age is concerned and
so what everyone else of my age but as
it is I met others in the past who don't
feel that way in particular the poet
Sophocles I was once present when he
asked was asked by someone how far it
how are you as far as sex goes Sophocles
can you still make love to a woman quiet
man he replied and very glad to have
escaped from all that like a slave who
was escaped from a deranged and savage
master I thought at the time what he
said was sensible and I still do you see
old age brings peace and freedom from
all such things when the appetite ceased
to stress and import Tunis everything
Sophocles said comes to pass and we
escape from many insane masters like
this is crazy boss called your libido
but in these matters and in those
concerning one's relatives the real
causes and old age Socrates but the way
people live
if they were orderly and contented
old-age to is only moderately onerous if
they aren't both old-age Socrates and
youth are hard to bear okay I want to go
back over this this is a pretty
interesting passage but the first thing
I like about this is that old age is
something everyone can relate to in some
sense and Socrates points out like
visitor road we're all gonna have to
travel some time and so in some sense
it's like every reader will be
interested in these questions kind of
young people are afraid of getting old
old people don't know what to think
about being old you know and this this
is when he's he's relating the story of
Socrates someone asks him like can you
still make love to a woman you know for
a lot of people that's their like big
fear it's I don't know sort of this this
like Freudian I don't know what is it
castration anxiety in some sense or
anxiety about growing impotent so I
think it's that is Socrates very quickly
speaks to some fundamental fears in
human psychology having to do with sex
and just just generally having to do
with your own mortality so and I think
generally you can't really have a
serious I don't think any philosophy can
be taken seriously if it doesn't deal
with the concept and the subject of
death and that just seems to be sort of
the biggest biggest possible issue there
is facing an individual human and the
Republic this goes immediately after
that which which I like and so we'll see
what he has to say about it more but I I
think this I think this opening is great
in terms of just finding universals to
talk about universal fears universal
concerns and maybe seems there's some
sort of universal wisdom the last part I
wanted to briefly touch on here is so
he's saying that the cause of all their
troubles isn't just being old it's it's
the way you live I think that's probably
true a lot of cases like especially you
see when
people get into there about their 60s
like some people in their 60s who just
didn't take care of themselves start to
look really old immediately and then
other people who are still running half
marathons like still look like they're
45 and in it it all how it comes down to
you know the decisions you made in the
past and how you lived in the past so I
yeah I tend to agree with it's not I
mean eventually it's old old age is
gonna get you when you're a hundred and
so it depends kind of how old you're
talking about but yeah by by those mid
60s as things start catching up to you
what I hear okay so Socrates this is the
Socrates nerrit narrative frame again he
says I admired him for saying that and I
wanted him to tell me more
so I urged him on so I guess this is
Socrates talking I imagine when you say
that cephalus the masses do not accept
it on the contrary they think you bear
old age more easily now because of the
way you live but because you are wealthy
sorry about that for the wealthy they
say have many constellations okay so
he's saying yeah it's not it's not
because you took care of yourselves
because you rich how about that oh no
this is this what the masses think so
Socrates isn't telling us what he thinks
yet he was also very guarded kind of in
the opening he's like well you that's
not a bad guess he's not you're not
saying anything's true or false he's
just kind of oh yeah maybe you might
think that an interesting idea huh these
people think that cephalus says that's
true they're not convinced and there's
something in there objection though not
as much as they think the mystic leaders
retort is relevant here when someone
from Serapis insulted him by saying as
high reputation was due to his city not
to himself so I mr. police I guess is
from Athens he replied that had he been
a Sarah sir if Ian he would not be
famous but nor would the other had he
been an athenian hey oh did you get that
someone's like hey and this is like
saying like oh you're only famous cuz
you went to Harvard he's like well yeah
but you know if I went to someplace like
you know Williams College I would not be
famous but if you went to Harvard you
wouldn't be famous so how about that the
same account applies to those who were
not rich and find old age hard to bear a
good person who not easily who would not
easily bear old age it were coupled with
poverty but one who wasn't good would
not be at peace with himself
even if he were wealthy it's kind of
like saying you need you need two things
like you need to be from the famous city
and you need to be really good at what
you do to be famous you like either one
if you don't have either of those then
you're gonna live in obscurity
I guess so it's saying you need to be
good and you need to be wealthy so just
just being wealthy isn't enough
Socrates says did you inherit most of
your wealth cephalus or did you make it
yourself
yes isn't this the real question of
anybody giving advice yeah you got all
these blah like lifestyle bloggers like
I just travel the world and live how you
want to it's like well let me ask you
something did you inherit your wealth or
did you make it yourself
life's so easy cephalus says what did I
make for myself Socrates you ask as a
money maker I'm in between my
grandfather and my father see my
grandfather and namesake and Aron at
about the same amount of wealth as I
possess and multiplied it many times
however my fatherless Annius diminished
that amount to even less than I am now
as for me I'm satisfied to leave my sons
here no less but a little more than I
inherited ah
so in hair inherited wealth showing up
kind of early in this that's that's
interesting to me because if you think
you think about that causes of sort of
like societal wide injustice inherited
wealth is kind of like in terms of like
creating and sustaining inequality kind
of high up the list but also something
you're not really allowed to talk about
or mention because it's just so so
sacrosanct when you think like oh these
people have aren't getting a fair start
in life like yeah cuz this person
inherited a hundred million dollars and
this person has nothing you think about
the total amount of wealth transferred
like you could completely reshape
society you know over a generation just
by changing like inheritance laws and
just saying okay nobody gets an
inheritance anymore and we're gonna use
all this money to like build better
schools or whatever then I don't know
it's interesting a question if people
would like still work as hard because
that's been the traditional argument
about inherited wealth is like Milton
Friedman talks about this he's like well
okay look if you get it 100% of heritage
sex nobody's gonna do any work or
they're just gonna spend all their money
in high living
and they're not gonna keep the money in
the company but then you look at someone
like Bill Gates or Warren Buffett like
it's like oh they're giving their kids
like nothing Warren Buffett gave his get
like thirty thousand dollars in nineteen
seventy Bill Gates has given his kids
like ten million each and now I never
just spending the rest on super yachts
you know they're just like giving it
away to charity so that's it kind of
diminishes the argument that like you
need the incentive of inheritance to
like keep people working because at
least sort of the richest people in
society seem to be doing it for for
other reasons than that hi living in any
event I'm Kira I'm curious if this
inheritance stuff will come back later
the reason I asked is that you do not
seem particularly to love money
one other thing is a Schopenhauer he
said the key to happiness is twofold you
got to be intelligent and you need to be
born wealthy
I think he's necessarily wrong there but
it's just like something people don't
really want to hear okay and those who
have not made it themselves are usually
like that some some wisdom there but
those who have made it themselves love
it twice as much as anyone else for just
as poets love their poems and fathers
their children so those who have made
money take their money seriously both is
something they've made themselves and
just as other people do because it's
useful okay so they yeah they they take
it more personally like they see that
number you know they make I don't know a
million dollars or something like iron
that that's my million dollars that's
that's the fruit of my labor do not
touch my money as if somebody just like
won the lottery oh yeah whatever
yeah it's money it's useful for stuff I
guess and probably that it has to do
with so he's making the comparison to
poets and loving their poems and fathers
their children it's something these
people are spending a lot of time
thinking about so you know if you're a
poet you're like this is
a great poem like I'm just thinking
about how great this poem is for all
this time if you're a parent you're like
man my kid's gonna grow up to be a great
kid you're spending all this time
thinking about how great the kid's gonna
be if you're making money you know
work work is work so you're not
necessarily doing about work you're just
thinking about that money man I'm gonna
be my name he's so rich when have all
that money spent hours and hours and
hours and hours just thinking about the
money so that's that's why you're
attached to it it's just cuz you spent
so long thinking about it okay instead
of thinking about poetry or great
philosophy okay okay this makes them
difficult to be with since they're
unwilling to praise anything except
money oh man I've known people sort of
like this all the people I've known it's
not like they don't they praise money
it's more like they complain about taxes
not gonna name any names here but I've
known these people simple oh that's true
indeed it is but tell me something else
what do you think is the greatest good
you've enjoyed as a result of being very
wealthy getting right to it
this is also this is another
psychologically this is great because
everybody's kind of curious about the
extremely wealthy it's been true since
the you know the invention of wealth
people like what you know what's the
best part of that you know this is like
like instagrams like what's like oh man
you get to go to these great places you
get to own this really expensive stuff
tell me how awesome it is man empathy
for the rich keeps the world turning
cephalus says what I have to say
probably would not persuade the masses
but you're well aware Socrates that
someone thinks his end is near he
becomes frightened and concerned about
the things he did not fear before is
then that the stories told about Hades
there's death again that a person who
has been unjust here must pay the
penalty there stories he used to make
fun of twists a soul this way in that
for fear they are true so I guess he
being the person nearing
used to make fun of these story like ah
I'm not afraid of the Undertaker spare
me and whether because of the weakness
of his old age or because he's now
closer to what happens in Hades and has
a clearer view of it or whatever it is
he's filled with foreboding and fear
begins to calculate and consider whether
he's been unjust to anyone if he finds
many and justices in his life he often
even awakes from sleep and terror as
children do and lives in anticipation of
evils to come yeah yeah gonna be called
to account soon buddy but someone who
knows he has not been unjust has sweet
good hope as his constant companion a
nurse to his old age as Pindar says I
don't know Pindar for he puts it
charmingly Socrates when he says that
when someone lives a just and pious life
sweet hope is in his heart nurse and
companion to his age hope captain of the
ever twisting mind of mortal men yeah
how amazingly well he puts that it is in
this connection I would say that the
possession of wealth is the most
valuable not for every man but for a
good and orderly one not cheating
someone even unintentionally not lying
to them not owing a sacrifice to some
God or money to a person and as a result
departing for that other place in fear
the possession of wealth makes no small
contribution to this and as many other
uses too but putting one thing against
the other Socrates I'd say that for a
man with any sense that is how wealth is
most useful ok ok so I'm I'm guessing
you saying it's great to be wealthy
because you don't need to cheat other
people some wealthy people do cheat
other people but I think he's saying
yeah it's like if you especially be
inherited a lot of money just like
you're not really trying to screw people
over
really is that true I don't actually
know that that's true I think in some
sense wealth is its relative in the
sense that people always looking for
more and so I think people even
extremely rich people will screw other
people over we'll see what Socrates says
about it a fine sentiment cephalus but
speaking of that thing itself justice
nobody hit the footnote on this because
that might be a special word see
glossary of terms SP justice I'm not
gonna do that
never mind are we to say it is simply
speaking the truth and paying whatever
debts one has incurred or is it
sometimes just to do these things
sometimes unjust I mean this sort of
thing for example everyone would surely
agree that if a man borrows weapons from
the same friend and if he goes mad and
asked for them back the friend should
not return them it would not be just it
wouldn't and would not be Justin he did
nor should anyone be willing to tell the
whole truth to someone in such a state
okay getting to moral questions so we've
talked about death we've talked about
having a lot of money talking about fear
of being tortured in Hades and now we're
getting to like ethics somehow and I'm
turn out like I'm just trying to figure
out the segue here he just is oh
speaking of that thing justice so it's
cephalus is kind of worried he's worried
on his own account like oh man I'm gonna
go to Hades I'm gonna get tortured and
this is sort of predicated on so we yeah
yeah we have this idea of Justice I
Christina said well what is what is just
but that's motivated by like fear of
personal some kind of like personal
retribution on on the Judgment Day or
whatever the Greek version of the
Judgment Day is so he's saying okay
here's here's something
speaking the truth is that just and he
gives an example of we're speaking the
truth might not be just or paying a debt
might not be just might not lead to a
good outcome because he's like oh yeah I
I borrow I borrowed your gun and then
you went insane and you want your gun
back
do I need to repay my debt or are you
just gonna go on a killing spree yeah
anyway good good points cephalus says
that's true Socrates
then the following is not the definition
of justice to speak the truth and repay
what one is borrowed okay so that's it
feels like a very sudden segue here to
getting to definitions of justice but
this is now this this is kind of now
they're in debate mode so Socrates kind
of started out like oh yeah what's it
what's it like being really rich what's
it what's it like being very old and now
he's just like well I just wanted to uh
speaking of justice let me I got some
things to say about justice a lot of
people think it's this it's not I can
give you a counter example okay
polemarchus interrupted well it
certainly is sakari is we are two trusts
and mine of these Simona DS at all
cephalus well in I'll hand over the
discussion to you since it's time for me
to look after the sacrifices yeah put my
wreath back on like I don't want to talk
about I don't want to talk about justice
okay so very interesting so is that the
end of cephalus polemarchus yeah so I
guess I know cephalus is still here all
right you ain't gone yet polemarchus my
poland mark is not heir of all your
possessions oh yeah because this is the
son of cephalus cephalus replied with a
laugh
certainly and off he went to the
sacrifice okay
I'm only pausing here because I am told
that cephalus may be more important than
he looks
maybe he'll be back but I don't think so
he he's almost like this Voltaire sort
of figure and that he's saying it's like
he can talk like he knows how to talk
about old age he knows about wealth he's
like yeah my grandfather made a lot of
money my dad lost most of it
I've been trying to you know invest in
the S&P 500 and get some of it back
hopefully I can leave my kids more than
I had I think he died
I just want to avoid these night terrors
of like people that I owe money to that
I may have screwed over in life so
wealth is nice because like I have a I
have a peaceful mind and I can go to bed
every night and wake up every morning
and not not worry what's gonna happen to
me in the afterlife and then Socrates
wants to start talking justice and
cephalus is just like yeah I got it I
got to go see a man about a dog here so
if if I were to assign some special
significance to cephalus here it would
be that he kind of thinks discussions of
justice
aren't maybe relevant to him it's like
if if you have money then you're not
really concerned about justice just like
hey you guys talk about this like I
sleep good at night I'm not I ain't too
worried like my father and grandfather
made some money for me and I mentioned
Voltaire cuz like at the end of Candide
he's looking for sort of the best
society you know that's the best of all
possible worlds and then at the end they
just kind of say well maybe it may is
just best to look after your own garden
and so cephalus looks like the guy is
looking after his own his own garden
just kind of keeping his head down but
let's not rock the boat here and maybe
maybe these larger questions are
impossible are these larger definitions
it's like Socrates tries to trap them
with his definition and settles it just
says I don't really care man I got
you know I got a family I got other
things to do
you guys you guys talk amongst
yourselves I'm not I'm not interested in
these sort of these abstract questions
I'm more interested in these immediate
experiences of like what it's like to
have money what it's like to grow old
and that they're not
generalizations he says because he's
saying look people say all this stuff is
due to old age but I'm not gonna
generalize about that I think it depends
on the circumstances it depends how you
lived in your youth and how you live as
an old person that determines like your
state of happiness there's not there's
not necessarily one thing that explains
everything it's just everything kind of
circumstantial so so if I were to
ascribe special meaning to cephalus it
would be that and I I think that as
maybe you know maybe he's the smartest
character in the book I don't know so I
really enjoying this this kind of
ambiguity here and this character just
talking a little bit and then
disappearing and I don't think we're
gonna see cell phones again but but I'm
not actually sure so well we'll continue
on here but I think that I think that
idea is is very fascinating that if if
cephalus is the smartest person in the
book what does it mean that he leaves
like immediately does it mean that sort
of the rest of these discussions are
ultimately fruitless I know it might
mean that so I I don't know I'm I'm
really enjoying reading this and
thinking about these questions
okay so cephalus goes off to the
sacrifice Socrates then tell us
err to the discussion I think that's a
joke just what Simona DS said about
justice that you think is correct
polemarchus he said it it is just to
give to each what is owed to him and a
fine saying it is in my view hmm give to
each person what is owed socrates well
now it's not easy to disagree with
Simona T's since he is a wise and
godlike man
what exactly does he mean perhaps you
know polemarchus but I do not understand
clearly he does not mean what we said a
moment ago namely giving back to someone
whatever he has lent to you even if he
is out of his mind when he asks for it
and yet what what he is lent to you is
surely something that is owed to him
isn't it so this is like you borrow
somebody's gun and then he goes nuts
polemarchus yes but when he's out of his
mind it is under no circumstances to be
given to him true then it seems simona
d's must have meant something else when
he said that to return what is owed is
just dah dah dah caught you in a trap I
do think this out of the mind idea is
fascinating to me because I think that's
one of the big problems with treating
identity as like this fixed construct
over time is some people go crazy and it
makes pretty much every other social or
political construct not work anymore
like if someone is out of their mind
do you know dare they say supposed to
vote I go or do we treat them as being
rational do we let them keep the office
that they were elected to do we let them
keep the job that they had or their
legal contract still binding or even
something like the afterlife it's like
say you know you lose your mind at age
30 so you're you're like one person in
the first half of your life and then
you're another person the other half of
your life well which which version goes
to Hades you know is it the person that
was out of their mind going to Hades or
is it the person from before or like the
normal person is that is that the
version going to Hades so I think it's I
think ideas like this present a lot of
philosophical problems yeah for if if
you just especially for ideas of like
relating the soul to a personality and
then you have this sort of personality
that might change from
a drastic head injury or just going
insane but something some of the people
really like to think and talk about so
we all like to think that everything's
hunky-dory everybody is who they say
they are
everybody is who they used to be okay
and it's same thing with criminal things
it's like innocent by reason of insanity
okay or you know you lock somebody up
like for a crime and then they go crazy
in prison and they don't remember
anything it's like well who why are we
locking this person this person this
person doesn't this is necessarily
connected to that old thing they don't
we're not like teaching this crazy
person anything by keeping them in
solitary confinement or whatever is this
are we just doing this to make ourselves
feel better and not because there's any
kind of objective purpose to it okay so
Paul Marcus replies something else
indeed by Zeus he meant friends oh
something good to their friends never
something bad sorry says I understand
you mean someone does not give a lender
what he's owed by giving him gold when
the giving and taking would be harmful
in both he and the lender are friends
okay so this is me I'm gonna go back
over that again someone does not give a
lender what he is owed by giving him
gold when the giving and taking would
both be harmful and both he and a lender
are friends okay so it's it's like you
borrow something you borrow a gold from
someone I guess it's gold in this case
but you're from a friend but then it'd
be like harmful to return it because
you're like I really need that okay I
think that's what's going on here
polemarchus it certainly is okay isn't
that what you say similarities in that
now what about this so Socrates should
one also give the ones enemies whatever
is owed to them should you give to your
enemies what's owed to them yeah are we
having do we make a distinction between
friends and enemy and
in terms of being through debt repayment
polemarchus yes by all means what is in
fact owed to them and what an enemy owes
an enemy in my view is also precisely
what is appropriate something bad
yeah Oh like you're my enemy so the only
thing I owe you is an insult it seems
then Simona DS was speaking in riddles
just like a poet when he said what
justice is I get the feeling Socrates is
gonna be speaking in riddles for what he
meant it seems is that it is just to
give to each what is appropriate to him
and this is what he called giving him
what is what he is owed
okay so polemarchus is saying yeah you
should get him when he's owed a punch in
the face oh and sorry he's like well
he's not actually owed a punch in the
face
he's it's appropriate for him but Simona
DS is just playing this little language
game saying Oh ode is appropriate okay
polemarchus what else do you think he
meant socrates then one in the name of
Zeus do you think he would answer if
someone asked him this Simona knees what
Oh d'Or appropriate things does the
craft we call medicine give I'm gonna
guess that's like techne I don't know a
lot of Greek and to and to which things
okay what Oh Dora prove things is a
craft we call medicine give and to which
things so medicine owes something I
guess I don't know how a craft Oh is
something those O's or appropriate we'll
see where this discussion goes
polemarchus clearly you would say it
gives drugs food and drink to bodies
Socrates and what owed or appropriate
things did the craft we call cooking
give in to which things so this is this
is kind of interesting because he's
moved this owing and appropriate things
from
kind of human actors you know subjects
to these more abstract arts I don't I
don't really know how that works cuz
like cook cooking is just an abstraction
I don't know how it gives ode or
appropriate things
okay well we'll follow the line of
thought here it gives pleasant flavours
to food says polemarchus now good now
what is the craft we call justice give
in to whom or what does it give it woo
polemarchus we're to follow the previous
answers Socrates yeah he's he's leading
you into if Socrates is asking you like
a series of questions he's probably
leading you into a trap
he gives benefit to friends and harm to
enemies okay because that's that's
that's what he means by equating owed
and appropriate the Simona tease mean
then treating friends well and enemies
badly is justice polemarchus I believe
so Socrates and who is most capable of
treating sick friends well and enemies
badly in matters of disease and health
ok sick friends well enemies badly polo
mark is a doctor oh no an evil doctor is
like oh yeah I'll look over them don't
you worry and who can do so best in a
storm at sea polemarchus a ship's
captain what about the just person and
what actions and what work is he most
capable of benefiting friends and
harming enemies polemarchus in wars and
alliances I imagine yeah makes sense to
me alright now and people are not sick
polemarchus a doctor is useless to them
true says polemarchus and so is a ship's
captain to those who are not sailing Oh
getting into a trap yes
so the people who are not at war a just
man is useless I thought that that no I
don't think so at all
still he's still useful he's not the
most useful but he's useful so justice
is also useful in peacetime war and
peace yes it is useful and so is farming
isn't it
whoo this is a maybe this is more
complex trap yes for providing produce
yes and shoe making as well yeah I need
shoes in both warranties yes for the
acquisition of shoes I suppose you would
say acquisition of shoes yeah you need
to buy it fuse all the time
polemarchus of course socrates tell me
then what is just as useful for using or
acquiring in peacetime contract socrates
give me the contract yeah my contracts
you mean partnerships or what
partnerships of course yeah business so
is it a just man who was a good and
useful partner in a game of checkers or
an expert checkers player city just man
who was a good and useful partner in a
game of checkers or an expert checkers
player
yeah which which one would you rather
have is your partner just man or garry
kasparov an expert checkers player said
polemarchus socrates and in laying
bricks and stones is a just person a
better and more useful partner than a
builder paul marquez not at all unless
it's a just bricklayer think about that
and what is this just man this is the
just man has no skills at all well that
kind of partnership then is a just
person a better partner than a builder
or a liar player in the way a liar
player is better than a just person at
hitting the
notes in money matters I think money
money money I love how much money is in
this I'm the very beginning like did you
inherit your wealth cephalus yeah but
Shh oh yeah I'm just thinking more about
that cephalus guy if like his bring his
grandfather in like what does the
grandfather have to do with anything
cuz it's like it's like yeah I inherited
my money and I made more of it I'm gonna
leave even more to my kids
but boy my grandfather made so much like
I didn't inherit all all that much we're
always saying like a small loan of a
million dollars like ah that's not boy
my grandfather he was the rich one me I
just just a little nothing okay when
yours must be deposited for safekeeping
Socrates right oh no I skipped a page
okay except I presume polemarchus and
using money you see whenever one needs
to buy or sell a horse jointly I think a
horse breeder is a more useful partner
isn't he yeah yeah I guess so
and when it is a boat of boat builder or
a ship's captain it seems oh yeah
expertise goes a long way and what joint
use of silver or gold then is a just
person a more useful partner than anyone
else hmm
yeah this just person's kind of kind of
useless when yours must be deposited for
safekeeping Socrates you mean whenever
there's no need to use it but only keep
it of course
so when money is not being used that is
when justice is useful for it oh look at
that trap like what why don't you
justice the only time you can think you
need justice you need a just person more
than anyone else this one you're not
using money you just wanna put it in the
bank and leave it there boy we really
need we need justice we need someone who
helps their friends and harms their
enemies at least in peacetime
it looks that way
it says polemarchus when one needs to
keep a pruning knife safe justice is
useful both in partnerships and for the
individual when you need to use it
however it is the craft of vine pruning
that is useful polemarchus apparently
okay and would you also say that when
one needs to keep a shield and a lyre
safe and not use them justice is a
useful thing but when you need to use
them it's the soldiers craft or the
musicians that is useful and I would
have to and so in all of the cases -
justice is useless when they are in use
but useful when they are not yeah all
this stuff we don't need justice we just
we just need domain experts polemarchus
it looks that way
then justice cannot be something
excellent can it my friend if it is only
useful for useless things justice cannot
be excellent hmm yeah you went do you
want a friend who's really good at
something or somebody who's a good
person at least at least in money
matters he's saying yeah I get the good
person a person who's good at things but
let's consider the following point isn't
the person who is cleverest at landing a
blow whether in boxing or any other kind
of fight also cleverest at guarding
against it hmm is that is that true any
boxers out there know that it's like are
the best puncher is also the best
defenders the best offense is a good
defense polemarchus a course
and this is also interesting this is all
tied up in personalities this whole
discussion
it's like hypothetical shipbuilder
hypothetical boxer hypothetical
shoemaker it's I don't know I I'm it's
interesting to me that like though those
are the relevant distinctions between
people is their profession here all
right Socrates and the one who is clever
at guarding against disease is also
cleverest at producing an unnoticed hmm
that's my view at any rate and the one
that was a good guardian of an army is
the very one who can steal the enemy's
plans and dispositions yeah you know
when uh FDR said about appointing Joe
Kennedy to the sec because every guys
like Joe Kennedy he just he was like
this Wall Street operator who's ripping
people off this is a JFK's father and
FDR said set a thief to catch a thief
very well well famous bit of a Great
Depression trivia
all right Paul mark is of course so
whenever someone is a clever guardian of
something
he's also clever at stealing it yeah
well it's like the Frank Abner galley
the catch me if you can guy he's like I
don't know he's like a security airline
security expert in our forgery
consultant
it seems so this is polemarchus so I
have a just person is clever at guarding
money done at a trap you trapped
you're trapped he must also be clever at
stealing it ah man Socrates you got me
again so the argument suggests at least
it seems then that a just person has
turned out to be a kind of thief what
how'd you do that
how'd you do that how'd you do that yeah
he's good too harming his enemy take a
little wool something full tax
you probably got that idea from homer
for he loves Autolycus the maternal
grandfather of Odysseus who in describes
is better than everyone at stealing and
swearing false oaths according to you
homer and Simona DS then justice seems
to be some sort of craft of stealing one
that benefits friends and harms enemies
isn't that what you meant oh no a thief
justice is a thief how'd you how'd we
get here honey that can't be right
benefiting friends and harming it yeah I
mean sort of like if you're doing like
an RPG or one of those video games like
you only want a thief and your deck help
you out justice polemarchus no by Zeus
is not what I do not know anymore what I
meant
I still believe this however benefiting
one's friends and harming one's enemies
is justice so I really like this
Socrates is basically trapped
polemarchus with this argument and
saying like okay you basically just said
justice is a thief and polemarchus it's
like okay I don't know where I went
wrong with this argument but I still
believe what I believe and to me this is
a very revealing moment I mean I don't
know where this discussion is gonna go
but people people believe what they
believe for essentially emotional
reasons and you can try to argue them
out of something about some position or
belief that they have they're really not
gonna change like reason is not going to
change their mind in most cases because
this is just they just want to believe
what they want to believe they proud
there's probably some emotional basis to
it maybe it's part of their identity
somehow it's not you're not gonna just
trap them you might win the debate but
you might you might lose them as a
personal friend you're not you're
definitely not gonna change someone's
mind about a lot of things just through
through a reason and through like
trapping them this way because you know
it's just like embarrassing if you get
trapped by Socrates like oh yeah well
now I believe Socrates because he got me
he's smarter than me nobody wants to
admit that maybe maybe that's why
cephalus was smart enough to leave
earlier he's just like yeah you're not
gonna change my mind
this doesn't have to do with reason this
is just look looking after my own okay
Socrates speaking of friends do you mean
those a person believes to be good and
useful or those who actually are good
and useful even if he does not believe
they are and similarly with enemies okay
yeah what's what's a friend you said
benefiting friends and harming enemies
who were friends and who are your
enemies
who's on your enemies list
parla marcus probably one loves those
one considers good and useful and hates
those one considers bad yeah you're not
good or useful you're on my enemies list
Socrates but don't people make mistakes
about this so lots of those who seem to
them to be good and useful aren't and
vice versa Paul Marcus they do ah so now
we're getting the difference between
perception and reality I'm just gonna
very famously gonna come up later in
here in the Republic so yeah how we know
the true nature of someone when they're
deciding that they're our friend or not
deciding whether to unfriend them on
Facebook polemarchus they do Socrates
so for them good people are enemies and
bad ones friends yeah all right so be it
for people who are fooled they got they
got the wrong friends of course all the
same is it then just for them to benefit
bad people and harm good ones
oh no this ain't this ain't good good
we were trying to benefit our friends
and harm our enemies but then we made
the wrong friends and wrong enemies so
we're heart or benefiting the wrong
people
dagnabbit apparently Socrates yet good
people are just and are not the sort to
do injustice good people are just yeah
good people are just I'd say that true
according to your account then it is
just to do bad things to those who do
who do no injustice it is just to do bad
things so we're doing bad things to our
enemies but we're mistaken about who our
enemies should be and there are the
people doing no injustice man Socrates
none at all Socrates it's my account and
it seems to be bad it's just then is it
to harm unjust people and benefit just
ones yeah that's what I'm talking about
all right forget the friends into
enemies things we're just gonna help out
just people and harm unjust people that
is justice kind of a circular definition
there so we're helping people who help
just people which means we help people
who help us alright that seems better in
my view it says polemarchus okay it
follows polemarchus that it is just for
many people the ones who are mistaken in
their judgment to harm their friends
since they are bad for them and benefit
their enemies since they are good so we
will find ourselves claiming the very
opposite of what we said Simona T's
meant ah
Socrates yes that certainly follows
let's change our definition for it looks
as though we did not define friends and
enemies correctly and it seems seems to
be the case how did we define them
polemarchus well we said that a friend
is someone who is believed to be good
Socrates and how are we to change that
now someone who is both believed to be
good pol Marcus and is good is a friend
someone who is believed to be good but
is not and is believed to be a friend
but is not same goes for enemies okay
you have to be believed to be good and
be good so it's sort of like cephalus
was saying you got to be good and rich
and you got to be good and believed to
be good all right yeah that's better
quarter net account then a good person
will be a friend and a bad one and enemy
ball Marcus yes Socrates so you want us
to add something to what we said before
about the just man then we said that it
is just to treat friends well and
enemies badly now you want us to add to
this to treat a friend well provided he
is good and Harmon enemy provided he is
bad that seems reasonable to me
well we'll addendum we're adding yeah
polemarchus that seems well put to me
and what we do about everybody else kind
of how do we know Socrates should a just
man really harm anyone whatsoever
polemarchus of course he should harm
those who are both bad and enemies I can
get on board with that Socrates when
horses are harmed do they become better
or worse
uh-oh here it comes Socrates lay in the
trap he's sure he's gonna put out two or
three things worse with respect to the
virtue that makes dogs good or the one
that makes horses good with respect to
the one that makes horses good
okay this is probably our eta
I'm guessing okay so you you're harming
a horse
it makes the horse worse Carmon enemy
makes the enemy worse how does that help
anybody when dogs are harmed then he
come worse with respect to the virtue
that makes dogs not horses good
necessarily and what about human beings
so he's sort of talking about this
virtue with respect to what one is so
the whatever makes a horse good you're
making them worse whatever makes a dog
good you're making the dog worse when
you hurt the dog all right what about
human beings comrade shouldn't we say
that when they are harm to become worse
with respect to human virtue of course
but isn't justice human virtue that's
necessarily so - no even we all we have
we have competing definitions of justice
then my dear of polemarchus people have
been harmed or bound to become more
unjust ah no
Socrates you got us again so it seems
now communes use music to make people
unmusical and no they can't do that
Socrates or could horsemen use
horsemanship to make people understand
like here again we have these like the
professions coming in polemarchus no
well and can just people use justice to
make people unjustly revert your
goodness to make people bad your virtue
to make someone bad no they can't uh-oh
here it comes the trap is set for it
isn't the function of heat to cool
things down I imagine but that of its
opposite
yeah yeah you can't freeze water with
fire Paul Marcus yes Socrates nor the
function of dryness to make things wet
but that of its opposite of course so
the function of a good person is not to
harm but that of his opposite yeah you
can't be harming people if you're good
if you're just apparently and a just
person is a good person of course so it
isn't the function of a just person to
harm a friend or anyone else polemarchus
but that of his opposite an unjust
person love your enemy maybe that's the
lesson I think you were absolutely right
Socrates Socrates so someone tells us it
is just to give give to each what he is
owed and understands by this that a just
man should harm his enemies and benefit
his friends the one who says it is not
wise I mean what he says is not true ah
ha ha ha ha ha that's an interesting
distinction he says it is not wise I
mean what he says is not true so he
corrects himself here because I'm think
like and I'm seeing Socrates is a little
bit of a trickster character and it
could be that a wise person says
something that's not true okay so this
he's kind of backtracking here he said
well if this person saying something
that's clearly wrong he's not wise well
I mean what I meant to say was he said
something is not true he could still be
wise he could be he could be leading you
on here and so that's I know this is
where I would get if I actually knew
Greek I would go to the Greek and see
how exactly this is spelt out because I
think for me this is the core of the
whole
book it's probably like inverted this
thing in ages
but but the core controversy is does
Socrates mean what he says and that that
distinction is laid out right here in
this paragraph one who says it is not
wise I mean what he says is not true and
saying that there's a difference between
being wise and speaking truthfully so
this is this is really interesting to me
okay
well we'll keep going with it or has
become clear to us that is never just to
harm anyone
Paulo Marquez I agree you and I will
fight as partners then against anyone
who tells us that Simona T's biased
Pittacus or any of our other wise and
blessedly happy men said this yeah come
on you got to be my boy now I for my
part I'm willing to be your partner in
the battle so I love I really like how
this is gone from sort of this abstract
discussion about justice to like this is
like buddy cop movie we're like all
right you're right you're on my team now
so it's interesting here so this is
finally and the other thing I just think
is really interesting about this is that
you saw before polemarchus said well ok
ok you got me Socrates but I still
believe what I believe that justice is
helping your friends and harming your
enemies and he wasn't really it's like
he wasn't really persuaded by the first
argument but he didn't see the flaw in
his own thinking and now this is where
Socrates has persuaded polemarchus to
actually change his mind so it's like
he's gonna go to bat he was before Paul
Marcus was repeating Simona T's now
Socrates is like no you're on my team
now so I find that shift to be very
significant in terms of the relationship
between reason identity you know
alliance
emotion psychology so this is yeah this
is really fascinating and so what is
what was that appeal that he made it
wasn't that like you know some Mona
Dee's because before it was like oh well
you might not really know who your
friends are or your friends might
actually be bad people and Paul Marcus
didn't really want to think about that
because if your friends aren't really
your friends then like what else do you
have it's kind of very a very personally
threatening idea but when he flips the
argument around it says well if you're
harming your enemies you're making them
less virtuous and so in some sense that
appeals to pol Marcus's like desire to
be a good person it's like oh well yeah
I guess I shouldn't make them worse
people should I so yeah maybe I
shouldn't be hard like harming my
enemies here instead of like yeah
thinking justice justice is a thief
which he did not find persuasive so
ultimately this is our little lesson in
persuasion here is that what what
actually finally Paul Marcus is caught
in these logical traps but this is the
one that finally breaks through to them
is that yeah a just person should not be
harming people okay really really
interesting so it's it's this psychology
as much as is these abstract ideas of
reason and I think that kind of calls
him the question what is the
relationship between reason and emotion
in the first place and this is something
Nietzsche kind of talked about you know
much much later you had guys like Kant
trying to provide like a you know a a
logical basis as to what is essentially
Christian ethics but the categorical
imperative and all this I kind of
engaging in
this sort of thought of like this this
implies this implies that and the
Nietzsche kind of came along and said
well actually the only reason you're
doing this is you like you just want to
justify Christianity by some other means
but it's it's essentially an emotional
project that you're undertaking under
the guise of Reason and so maybe maybe
these two things cannot be disentangle I
mean we try so hard to disentangle
reason and emotion but maybe ultimately
there's there's no way to do that so
it's I don't know I mean I just I think
this is all really fascinating
okay so Socrates says do you know who's
saying I think it is that it is just to
benefit friends and harm enemies yeah
where did that come from anyway it's I
thought was Simona DS whose says
polemarchus I think it's a saying of
periander or / dick Perdiccas or Xerxes
or its many us of Thebes or some other
wealthy man who thought he had great
power is this is he doing an ad hominem
attack now he's like oh well you know I
think was one of those rich guys trying
to rip you off Paul Marcus that's
absolutely true all right since it has
become apparent then neither justice nor
the just consists in benefiting friends
and harming enemies what else should one
say it is all right you kind of like the
first fighter has shown up Socrates is
throw him to the ground and then won him
over to his side and this is a sort of
this idea of persuasion links back to
the opening scene which sort of looked
your relevant like oh why are these guys
coming back from the festival and then
was it was a I forgot who was it
what's that polemarchus at the beginning
I was saying well we are numbered
greater than you you're gonna have to do
what we say and they're like well okay
what if we persuade you like now we
can't be persuaded like now we can't
persuade you either
so this is this is the persuasion
happening okay
as distinct from disappointing the
debate okay now while we were speaking
so this is sort of the Socrates
narrative frame through Simic Asst had
tried many times to take over the
discussion but was restrained by those
sitting near him who wanted to hear our
argument to the end when we paused after
what I had just said however he could
not keep quiet any longer crouched up
like a wild beast about to spring he
hurled himself at us as if to tear us to
pieces polemarchus and i were frightened
and flustered as he roared into our
midst dad Adam okay I am going to should
I stop the video here I think when to
stop the video here otherwise it's gonna
be like three hours long so this is this
is a great stopping place
I didn't realize there'd be a good
stopping point but so that that's the
end of the first part of book one of the
Republic I'm just gonna go ahead and
summarize everything that we that we
know here so we had started out yeah
with this festival Glaucon and Socrates
are walking along coming back from the
festival the three scenes are mentioned
for some reason and then I think I'm
gonna say they run into Poe I'm gonna go
back let's see
table of contents book one they I think
they ran into polemarchus yeah
polemarchus said hold like hold up hold
up and then and then again as as I
mentioned I thought maybe that physical
situation would mirror the intellectual
one sure enough it did just later on in
the book when polemarchus is struggling
to keep up with the great Socrates so
they all meet up together and then like
oh yeah you can't you know we're more
than you you have to do what we say and
Socrates is like well I I guess so maybe
we could persuade you but maybe not and
ultimately they go along go over to
cephalus house who's making a sacrifice
in the backyard and Socrates is just
starts
talking to cephalus so they talk a
little bit about old a start time up old
age and cephalus cuz cephalus is old he
is at death's door and several starts
talking about he quotes Sophocles he's
like yeah well you know I was hanging
out with Sophocles and someone was
asking the same thing like can you make
love to a woman anymore and he said well
it's actually kind of nice to be free
from her was it deranged an insane
master and so yeah I liked it cuz these
are some universal fears maybe just
Universal male fears and and there's
also just talking about kind of real
real things and real concerns that you
know we're all gonna have to face death
sometimes so then cephalus I also just I
like this idea of you know this sort of
the other side of the fence there and
with old people just saying like yeah
actually like you can't make a love to a
woman anymore but it's actually kind of
nice just like being on tinder all the
time or whatever and just having having
time to be more philosophical this idea
also comes up in brave new world I will
link to it below or above or somewhere
on here and that one of the big ideas in
brave new world is that you they wanted
to eliminate old age essentially in
order to eliminate philosophy so they
have these techniques for keeping people
young forever so they're just always
engaging in the appetites of the flesh
and as a result they don't really think
about justice they don't really question
anything they're just like just trying
to go on dates constantly and have
orgies so it is an interesting idea just
the sort of the relationship between
like sex drive and philosophy and old
age and yeah sometimes like I
I met an old man just a few days ago
who's just spent his life as a
dermatologist and said he's suddenly
gotten really interested like he's like
in the 70s now and has suddenly gotten
very interested in philosophy and it's
just read reading constantly and
thinking thinking about the big
questions which he would it's kind of
too busy for as a younger man so it's it
the idea of philosophy has an old man's
game is is interesting to me so anyhow
they talked about that for a little bit
and then cephalus Socrates kind of is
kind of nowhere just says like well
weird you get your money buddy did you
inherit it shuffle it's kind of down
places and Herod he's like yeah I'd
inherit money but my grandfather had a
lot more and then Socrates says well
what's wealth useful for cephalus says
well it's the most useful thing I'll
tell you is I'm thinking about death a
lot and since I have money then I don't
have to worry about basically don't have
to worry about going to hell because
like I might have some unpaid debts
because I got I got enough money to pay
off all my debts I good at night that's
that's pretty much at my age that's what
money is most useful for like I'm not
other people miss all these feasts and
drinking parties but I don't really he
says so yeah and then cephalus they
start talking about
Seifer he starts asking Semple's about
justice and cephalus just got to go back
to his courtyard to continue the
sacrifices again I see I see that as
potentially very significant and I'm
kind of curious to read more about
interpretations of cephalus and whether
the the philosophical project is
ultimately doomed if if seffle this is
them is the smartest person in the book
so cephalus leaves and then there's
polemarchus the heir to the discussion
hahaha
and they start talking about definitions
of justice polemarchus puts forth this
idea
that justice is helping your friends and
harming your enemies and Socrates kind
of pokes a number of holes in it he says
well sometimes if you don't actually
know who your friends are or first he
says like well when's that actually
useful is it only useful in wartime
what about peacetime was it only for
holding your money but is the person if
the person is really good at holding
your money he must be good at stealing
it so does that mean that the just
person is a really good thief and
polemarchus doesn't really like that
Socrates also goes on this goes through
this idea of not really knowing who's
good and who's bad which i think is is
extremely important that's
philosophically for anything it's like
okay you come up with some abstract
principle how do you actually know the
thing is what you think it is and
usually usually we really just don't we
got to rely on our perceptions we rely
on you know the media we were one of
various mediations of of that knowledge
of that experience and so finally we get
through finally he breaks through to
polemarchus by appealing to this idea of
virtue and that a just person should not
halt like cause someone else to be less
just through this definition and I think
they had some other little mini
arguments in there and that's that's
what ultimately persuades polemarchus to
join Socrates and denouncing that idea
of Justice which I don't know most
people don't really do anymore people
really spend their time that way and
then yeah so they he starts to make
these like it's--for ad hominem attacks
is like wow yeah I think that's a saying
and one of those famous wealthy guys and
he's just trying to use you and then
finally they say oK we've completely
disposed of that idea of justice what
else you got and that's where that's
when through semaa cos pipes up and so
tomorrow we will continue with force
Inachus and see what his idea of justice
may be and now that we've gotten gotten
through cephalus and
polemarchus so I hope you're enjoying
this I'm enjoying a lot more than I
thought I would and a lot more than I
did when I was reading this in high
school
partly because I I think I've got some
more I'm more interested in almost these
kind of meta ideas of who is telling
who's telling the truth so we had this
idea of how do you really know that a
good person is a good person or a friend
is a good person how do we know what
these characters true beliefs are even
though like as they're talking and
Socrates has been fairly cagey I I
personally saw the most significant part
of this as being that correction where
he said someone who says this is not
wise I mean if he says that he's not
telling the truth so I'm really
fascinated by this interplay between
wisdom and truth and I think just
reading this now being a bit older than
I was then I'm I'm more able to or at
least more interested in seeing what is
really on these characters Minds rather
than just kind of taken at face value
like Socrates believed this and you know
the Socrates believed anything here I
don't I don't know but I'm I'm curious
to keep reading and see where this goes
so hope you're enjoying this if you are
I'll hit the thumbs up button down below
if you notice anything that I didn't
leave a comment if you disagree with
something I said also leave a comment
I'll probably be posting this to Reddit
check out the book clap review clap
subreddit where discussions of plugs
Republic are going to happen it's the
the PewDiePie book subreddit try to
continue maybe some discussion over
there and look forward to the next one
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