GUEST SPOT: This is Darlene Crosby, with Tri-State Generation and Transmission in Westminster, Colorado.
Welcome to Along Those Lines.
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SCOT HOFFMAN, HOST: Hi everyone, this is a
podcast about electric cooperatives, the
work they do and the challenges they face.
I'm your host, Scot Hoffman.
In the past few years, we've have seen massive destruction from wildfires across Western states
and elsewhere in the country, much of it happening
on federal lands and within co-op service territories.
We talk co-op and federal Forest Service experts
about the that role utilities play in mitigating
wildfire risk, and how are they're working with
federal partners to minimize the number and
intensity of fires.
First up, we have Janelle Lemen, she's from
NRECA's regulatory team, and she works with
co-ops and federal agencies on this issue,
and Dave Markham from Oregon's Central Electric
Cooperative. He's testified several times
before Congress about how co-ops work with
the federal government on utility right-of-way
issues that are so critical to fire mitigation.
HOFFMAN: Dave, Janelle, thanks for being on
the podcast.
JANELLE LEMEN, REGULATORY ISSUES DIRECTOR,
ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUES, NRECA: Thanks for having
us, Scot.
DAVE MARKHAM, PRESIDENT AND CEO, CENTRAL ELECTRIC
COOPERATIVE: Thank you, Scot.
HOFFMAN: OK, Dave, I want to start with you.
You've spoken on behalf of not just Central
Electric, but sort of on behalf of all co-ops
regarding wildfire mitigation. What made you
take up this issue in such a high-profile way?
MARKHAM: Well, Scot, I think that, you know, we'd been experiencing some issues out here
in Central Oregon within our service territory
with the federal land agencies, and as I got
to talking to my other co-op managers, CEOs
across the country, I found out this was not
an isolated incident, that some of the issues,
as we try to work towards wildfire mitigation,
some of the issues that we were confronted
with with these federal land agencies was just
absurd, and I've got some amazing stories
to tell you, and it just got to a point to
where we had to take action, and I guess I
felt that I might as well step up to the forefront
and take it on.
HOFFMAN: And, Janelle, do you have a sense
of how many co-ops deal directly with wildfire
concerns? I know this is not just forest fires.
These things impact lots of different regions
for lots of different reasons, but do you
have a sense of how many co-ops have to deal
with this issue?
LEMEN: You know, my sense is that nearly 900
electric co-ops found across the country are
concerned about the potential impacts that
wildfires may have on, you know, not only
their infrastructure, but the communities
they serve. And those concerns seem to be
growing as wildfires are happening, you know,
more frequently and damages are getting more
severe. And as you mentioned, Scot, you know,
there are many factors contributing to wildfire
risk across the landscape, and those range
from things like weather, topography, remoteness
of the fires, proximity to wildland-urban
interfaces, and land management policies.
And while wildfire risk may be lower for some
co-ops depending on their local conditions,
other co-ops have more heightened concerns,
and for some, it's not a question of if
they will be impacted by wildfire, but when
and to what degree. And for the more than
one-third of all co-ops that have service
territories and electric infrastructure that
cross federally managed lands, wildfire risk
can be much higher, and that's due largely
in part to what we call these "let-burn"
policies, increased fuel loads on the ground,
and government red tape that prevents co-ops
from having timely access to their rights-of-way
to conduct vital work that's necessary to
ensure system reliability and reduce that
potential wildfire risk.
However, I would be remiss if I didn't point
out that there has been a lot of positive
strides in recent years to improve access
to federal lands and work more collaboratively
to promote active management. Not only along
power line rights-of-way, across America's
forests and rangelands more broadly in order
to reduce wildfire risk. Namely, to protect
the public, power lines and other infrastructure,
as well as natural resources.
HOFFMAN: And, Dave, if you could just kind
of give us an idea of what it is that co-ops
do in their rights-of-way or in their territories
more broadly to mitigate powerline-caused fires.
MARKHAM: Well, Central Electric Co-op, our
service territory, it's 5,300 square miles,
and 56 percent of that is on federally managed
lands. We have areas that are heavily forested
as well as open rangeland, so both of these
are high-risk for wildfires when the weather
here gets hot and dry. First and foremost,
co-ops, we must be able to manage the vegetation
on our right-of-ways without federal land
agency permitting delays. And we also need
approval from these land agencies to trim
or remove danger trees that are outside of
our right-of-ways but still pose a wildfire
threat, because they can come into contact
with a power line.
And several years ago, when we upgraded 23
miles of transmission line, I mean, much of
it was through heavily forested federal land.
We replaced wood poles with steel structures
to help reduce the wildfire risk, and this
year, we're upgrading 13 miles of distribution
line, this is also through heavily forested
federal lands. And we're installing taller
poles, and we're replacing four-foot cross
arms with wider eight-foot cross arms, and
this minimizing the risk of a tree branch
getting hung up in the power lines and igniting
a wildfire.
And then, lastly, there's a newer technology
that we're investigating for a pilot project,
and it's called distribution fault anticipation,
and this technology is being tested by some
utilities, and what it does, is it can detect
variations in electrical currents that are
caused by deteriorating equipment. And so,
that data is provided to the co-op so that
a problem can actually be fixed in the early
stages before a potentially catastrophic event
like a wildfire can occur.
HOFFMAN: One of the things that you do, Janelle,
is you advocate to the federal government
on behalf of co-ops regarding the policies
that impact the way they do business and the
way they mitigate fires. Which agencies, specifically,
do you deal with, and what are some of the
key policy items that you're trying to shape
right now?
LEMEN: Sure. You know, really, because wildfire
knows no bounds, I'm working with several
different federal agencies to voice the concerns
that co-ops and their communities have regarding
vegetation management and wildfire, but to
name a few, that includes the White House's
Council on Environmental Quality, the U.S.
Fish and Wildlife Service, and the National
Park Service. In addition, a lot of the advocacy
work that I'm doing deals with the USDA
Forest Service and the Bureau of Land Management,
because these two agencies are the ones responsible
for managing the vast majority of federal lands.
So, right now, my priority focus is working,
you know, to shape and influence how the Forest
Service and BLM are implementing the favorable
vegetation management provisions that Congress
enacted into law in 2018. And these provisions
are really designed to allow electric co-ops
to more easily manage and remove hazard trees
along their rights-of-ways and ultimately
will help bolster co-op system reliability
and reduce wildfire risk.
And NRECA and its members are very appreciative
of our government partners' commitment to
implementing these provisions. You know, we
commend the Forest Service for recently issuing
its final vegetation management rule, and
we're looking forward to the BLM issuing
similar rulemaking, which we expect to be
published later this year.
Over the past couple of years especially,
both agencies have recognized the benefits
of streamlining these approvals. And going
forward, NRECA and our members, you know,
will continue working with the agencies
to ensure there's consistent implementation
of the rules at a local level, as well as
look for new opportunities to increase collaboration
and partnerships between co-ops and the government.
HOFFMAN: And Dave, you've been called to
testify in front of Congress on a couple of
occasions about this particular issue. When
you go and talk to federal lawmakers, what
are you telling them? What are you asking them?
MARKHAM: The three times that I've testified, the stories that I've been able to tell them
have been an eye-opener. And while it takes
a long time to get legislation pushed through,
each story built upon itself. You know, back
in 2014, you know, I talked about how it takes,
to do a project replacing two miles of underground
cable in Forest Service land, how it took
up to a year to get approval to do that, and
the danger of letting underground cable go
that long that needs to be replaced. And then,
before they even give us an approval, how
they have to get an archaeologist out there,
and this is putting cable right back in the
same place, and they require an archaeologist.
We needed to move a pole six feet, this one
pole six feet, and it took over a year to
get approval for that, and again, we had to
wait, plus pay the expense of having an archaeologist
come out and do shovel probes and inspect
the area. And when you share those real-life
situations with your lawmakers, you don't
really have to ask them much. They realize
what has to take place.
And as Janelle was talking about, this latest
time that I came back and testified, wildfire
mitigation is such a huge issue right now.
And, we have a 13-mile stretch of distribution
line through a heavily forested area. We've
been planning, we needed to get the power
poles replaced, get the vegetation managed,
get the trees out of there, and it took a
year just to get approval for the project,
and I'll tell you, that approval didn't
come until I made my trip back to D.C. and
was able to testify on it. And we finally
got approval, but if a wildfire would have
started while we were waiting for this approval,
it would come back on us, not on the federal
land agencies, but on us.
HOFFMAN: And Janelle, why don't you weigh
in on that as well. I'm sure you have sort
of the same conversations with the federal
agencies that you talk to. Are you bringing
those same sort of stories from the front
that Dave was just talking about?
LEMEN: Absolutely. It's so important to
bring co-op stories like Dave's and others'
in front of, you know, the agencies as well
as Congress. You know, co-ops are unique.
They have special concerns, and when I can
tell that co-op story, it's really one of
the best ways to help the agencies better
understand, you know, how their policies are
impacting co-ops and communities on the ground.
And this can lead to better, more workable
regulations that benefit co-ops as well as
the environment.
HOFFMAN: And Dave, you talked about how testifying
on the Hill was a particular honor for you.
Can you tell us a little bit about how that
came together and how you worked with NRECA
and other groups to get yourself in front
of that kind of an important group?
MARKHAM: The role that NRECA has played in
setting this up so that we can develop relationships
with the lawmakers, it's been pretty incredible.
And then, our statewide, you know, we've
got Ted Case, and his link to not only all
of you back there but to the lawmakers is
incredible. I didn't do anything special.
I've gotten to do something that very few
people ever get a chance to do, and that's
testify in front of Congress not once, but
three times.
I've been back to Washington, D.C., yearly,
I come back for the Legislative Conference
or come back to testify. When I come back
with those stories, every single time, before
I, my airplane tires hit the runway in Redland,
Oregon, we've had approval for projects
that we've been waiting on. And it shouldn't
take me having to go back to D.C. and talk to
our lawmakers or talk to the CEQ about the
issues that we're facing to get some resolution.
And with all the projects we have on federal
land, I would be able to get really timely
response if I did come back every year, because
by the time I get back from D.C., they get
approved.
HOFFMAN: Would you agree with that, Janelle,
in your experience? Is it basically a matter
of kind of getting everyone on the same page?
LEMEN: It is. I think when electric co-ops
and the agencies can come together at the
same table and talk, you realize that we share
a lot of common goals. You know, co-ops care
about their communities. They're committed
to responsibly delivering affordable and reliable
electricity, and that includes working diligently
to keep their right-of-ways maintained in
way that's reducing wildfire risk.
And, you know, co-ops are exploring innovative
ways to partner not only with the agencies,
but conservation groups, local and state governments
and tribes to improve overall forest health.
For example, we have co-ops in the Southwest
that are initiating pilot projects with the
Forest Service to address hazardous vegetation
directly outside of the right-of-way. And
co-ops are looking at how can we leverage
rights-of-way as fuel breaks to protect infrastructure
and combat wildfires.
So, I really think, you know, if we can continue
to work on communicating better and communicating
better and working together, that's what
it's going to take for us to get to a place
where we're experiencing, you know, less
frequent and destructive wildfires.
And frankly, we've collectively already
taken a lot of important steps to do just
that, and we're committed to continuing
to build and strengthen those relationships.
HOFFMAN: That's a great point. We'll hear
more on this and get the perspective from
the federal Forest Service in a minute, but
first, let's pause for a word from our sponsor.
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GUEST SPOT: I'm Dana Pogar from Grand Valley
Power in Grand Junction, Colorado, and you're
listening to Along Those Lines.
HOFFMAN: Welcome back, everyone. Dave, you've
been doing this a long time. In the last five,
10 years, have you been dealing with this
in a more intense way, and if so, what's
the reason for that?
MARKHAM: That's a great question, and I
start off with, has it gotten worse? I think
what happened was when PG&E experienced the
Camp Fire down there, and it was determined
that it was due to faulty equipment, in fact,
I had heard that pole where the line came
down from was 100 years old. When the death
of 85 people and 19,000 structures were burned
down, that forever links in the public's
mind, utilities and wildfires. So, that brings
that to the forefront.
Then, you add to it, as far as out in the
west, our climate has gotten hotter and drier,
and so, we're seeing that change, and the
Forest Service, even their inventory analysis
said right now that there are more dead and
dying trees than there are living trees within
their inventory. And you add all those up,
and you bring this issue of wildfire mitigation
completely to the forefront, and it is very
concerning, because all those changes mean
that we have to have a focus on wildfire mitigation
and put more resources through it, because
it's becoming a greater risk.
HOFFMAN: Well, this is really fascinating
stuff and very informative to hear from your
side of the equation what's going on. We
hear so much about these fires. So, Janelle
and Dave, I want to thank you very much for
coming on the podcast and talking to us.
MARKHAM: Thank you very much, Scot.
LEMEN: Thanks for having us.
HOFFMAN: Next up, we have Jim Menakis, he's
a national fire ecologist at the USDA's
Forest Service. He'll give us his perspective
on working with co-ops on addressing wildfires.
Jim, thanks so much for joining us.
JIM MENAKIS, NATIONAL FIRE ECOLOGIST, FOREST
SERVICE WASHINGTON OFFICE OF FIRE AND AVIATION
MANAGEMENT: Thanks for the opportunity.
HOFFMAN: OK, so we're talking about wildfires
today. Specifically, how co-ops interact with
the government to mitigate wildfire problems.
What do we mean when we say wildfire? I think
most people think of huge, burning forest
fires, but it's more than that, right?
MENAKIS: It is more than that. It's basically
any unplanned ignition in the backcountry,
outside of where urban or rural houses are,
not like a structural fire, per se, in that
element. So, anywhere in that wildland area
where a fire occurs that's unplanned that
could be caused by lightning, most fires are
caused by humans, by escape, maybe a campfire
that someone hasn't attended for awhile,
or a cigarette butt being thrown out, or those
things.
HOFFMAN: And we've heard the term "fire
season." Is there a national fire season,
or does that vary by region?
MENAKIS: You know, it really is driven by
the climate or the weather that year, you
know, as far as the conditions going forward.
You know, historically, there used to be a
really very narrow season, per se, starting
in the southeast and moving to the west later
in the summer. But, you know, the conditions
we're seeing today just really varies year
to year. It really just depends on those local
conditions, how dry they are and the lack
of moisture and those elements, so there really
isn't a clear fire season anymore.
HOFFMAN: One of the things that you're tasked
with is helping devise a national strategy
for how we deal with wildfires, how we mitigate
them, how we keep them from happening. Can
you talk a little bit about what that strategy
looks like and then some of the partnerships
that you create with non-government entities
in these different regions that help you get
this job done?
MENAKIS: Yeah, there's two strategies that
are really relatively new. One of them, the
National Cohesive Wildland Fire Management Strategy
is about 10 years old, and then there's
a more recent one, called Shared Stewardship.
And really, the goal for both of these strategies,
fire knows no boundaries. It doesn't stop
at an adjacent landowner in those elements.
It burns through whatever the conditions are,
so really the goal of these strategies is
to develop healthy partnerships and develop
a strategy or an integrated plan on how to
mitigate the negative effects of wildfire.
Cohesive Strategy, it focuses anything from
a community itself, from homeowners doing
their work to local county commissioners or
planners doing work around their land to also,
like safe and effective wild land fire response.
So, strategy really considers all elements
of fire, not only mitigation, but how we can
safely and effectively respond to fires, mitigate
negative effects.
Shared Stewardship is more relatively new,
and that's really a relationship creating
a better partnership with the states. It's
really targeting the high-priority areas needing
treatments to strategically, you know, allocate
funds in a way that do the best good as far
as mitigating the work, and also just better
coordination and planning at all levels. But
basically, it really is strategies targeted
for all-hands approach. Fires knows no boundaries,
so it takes everyone to play their role to
be truly successful.
HOFFMAN: Co-ops, by virtue of who they are
and where they're located, I think probably
are more likely to come into areas where these
wildfires happen, and where there's boundaries
with federal territory. The co-op power line
rights-of-way that cross into federal lands,
how do you all work with them to make sure
that these rights-of-way, where there's
electric infrastructure do not, you know,
create additional issues in terms of mitigating
fires?
MENAKIS: Well, you know, it starts at the
local level, obviously. You have to look at
the conditions of the vegetation in that area.
There probably is an event, which could be
a human cause, recreation person or, you know,
possible equipment failure, or those elements.
And it starts with those elements first, you
know, the probability of an event occurring
and then veg and field conditions around that.
And then, the mitigation level really is,
kind of, how do you plan together? Both in
terms of how you treat the fields around the
corridor, the way to mitigate negative effects
or create an environment that allows for safe
and effective response, as well as, you know,
planning out communities and working with
them on the possibilities of concerns. So,
it really is an all-hands approach, and planning
needs to start way before any kind of season
and needs to be maintained over time on that.
But it's really building that relationship
to come up with a unified plan, not only where
the corridor occurs, but adjacent to the corridor
as well.
HOFFMAN: And some of the issues that we've
heard from co-ops that are in these areas
where their rights of way go into federal
territories is difficulties with getting approval
from the federal government, deciding which
agency they need to work with in order to
go in and do this right-of-way maintenance.
Can you talk a little bit about how you're
working with co-ops to not only kind of hear
their concerns, but fix them on the other side?
MENAKIS: Well, federal agencies you know,
all the federal agencies are now actively
trying to work with co-ops, and again, it
starts at that local level. Congress has provided
many initiatives to help, you know, facilitate
those efforts to be effective and prioritize
and have them occur more quickly. And there's
a couple efforts at play right now in California,
looking at different ways to prioritize where
to do the field treatments and the type of
treatments in place, to the pilot projects
in New Mexico and Arizona that are in place
right now in a way to kind of better mitigate
it. Much more integrated planning that's
targeted around the utilities. So, it starts
with that local dialogue if the dialogue has
not existed in the past, I encourage the local
utility person to reach out to the local federal
person, federal manager in that area, start
a relationship.
Also, the science has gotten much more robust
on risk-mapping and the ability to map risks.
And a lot of those risk efforts are targeted
to all values, not necessarily just communities.
And a lot of those risk efforts at the local
or forest level usually invite the utility
companies to the dialogues on the risk, so
they're part of the discussion from the
very beginning on what the risk is and how
to best mitigate it going forward.
HOFFMAN: So, Jim, you've been in the wildfire
mitigation game for 20-plus years. Are wildfires
increasing? Are they getting more intense?
And if so, what's causing that?
MENAKIS: The conditions on the landscape have
changed to much more hotter and drier conditions
in the last few years. I think it's obvious
for anybody following the news. So, there
is more fire in the landscape and more intense
fire in the landscape. And that is partly
due to the weather conditions changing. Also,
the sheer overstocking of some of our ecosystems
for a lack of management, both in terms of
managed by, you know, natural resource experts
or a wildfire playing its natural role in
reducing the risks on the landscape.
As well as, also, more people moving into
the rural area or the wild and urban interface,
creating more interactions for possibilities
of a wildfire affecting those structures or
those homes. So, the issue has gotten much
more complex.
As far as mitigating going forward, the science
has gotten much more robust in the sense that
we have better risk-assessment tools and processes
to really have a better dialogue on what steps
need to be taken to help mitigate that. And
also, a lot of the initiatives brought up
by Congress are also helping facilitate that,
as well. A fire is part of these ecosystems,
so the question's always going to be not,
you know, if it occurs, but when it occurs,
do we have the right plan in place to kind
of mitigate that?
HOFFMAN: You mentioned that there are tools
available to regions to mitigate this risk.
I know there's a wildfire risk to communities
tool that co-ops are using in their communities.
Is that something that the Forest Service
has created and is promoting? Can you talk
a little bit about that?
MENAKIS: Yeah. This is a relatively new tool,
website that's available, targeting mostly,
you know the local planning folks, county
commissioners, fire marshals, and those elements,
but a good resource for both either homeowners
or federal agencies as well, going forward.
And we were directed by Congress to basically,
you know, prioritize or map the risk of wildfires
to communities. So, it's a risk assessment,
but it focuses on one value: the community
or the structure itself on that element. And so,
what it does is, maps and charts, identifies
areas where there's a high probability of
a negative effect of a wildfire to a community.
But it also provides more than that. It also
provides the ability, if you want to do a
local analysis, you can download the data
that's available to make it more custom
to your area. As well as actions that communities
can take with ties to several partners. Based
on, you know, how you fit in the wildland
fire situation, so if you're a homeowner,
it gives you guidelines and directions on
how to mitigate around your house.
If you're a land management person, it gives
you directions on who to work with going forward
and partners and actions you can take across
the board. So, it really targets that one
element of strategy, the community element
of building those healthy partnerships and
more of an all-hands approach to mitigating
the problem.
HOFFMAN: That's great. Well, Jim, thanks
so much for being on the podcast. That's
fantastic information, and it really is interesting
to hear the government's side of the things
that we're doing on the co-op side to take
care of this risk, so thanks again for being
on the podcast.
MENAKIS: Thanks for the opportunity, and I'm
excited about partnerships as they continue
to grow. Like I said, it's an all-hands
approach. So, the more partners we get engaged,
the better off we'll be in mitigating the
negative parts of wildfire, but also allowing
for the benefit, the ecological benefits of
wildfire as well.
HOFFMAN: All right. Thanks, Jim.
And thanks as well to our sponsor, OFS, and
to your, our listeners. For more on this and
other podcasts, visit us at electric.coop.
Until next time, I'm Scot Hoffman.
GUEST SPOT: I'm Mike Wilson from Eastern
Illini Electric Cooperative in Paxton, Illinois.
Thanks for listening to Along Those Lines.
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