Introduce yourself.
Yeah, I'm turning it.
So I'm a member of the
House of Lords in the UK.
I'm an academic with strong
connections to Cambridge
and the LSE, and work
directly in politics
to some degree as well.
Something I want
to ask you about.
Yesterday someone made
the point that the liberal
left Democrats haven't done a
good enough job of defending
democratic values, and really
explaining to the people.
Well, I guess my
question is, do you
think there is a
need to articulate
a new vision for a
new social contract
in [INAUDIBLE] society?
Well, I'll start with your
first point, because you know,
there's a difference
between social liberalism
and social democracy.
Social liberalism is
more of an American term,
and the left are
called liberals.
In Europe, and elsewhere, that
means something different.
So let's assume we're talking
about social democracy.
That is liberal left
of center parties.
They made a big
impact on the world,
20 years ago when
many such governments.
They made a lot of
positive changes.
Tony Blair and Bill Clinton,
in spite of their mishaps,
you know, they did make
significant reforms.
Some of those reforms are
being made everywhere today.
For example, you must
reform labor market.
You must do, in a much more
flexible labor market system.
And I'm not sure it's
completely fair to blame them
for the global economic crisis,
because first of all, nation
states can't manage that.
That is the job of the
transnational institutions.
And second, you always
say in retrospect but,
if anyone would be to blame it
was the economists who did not
anticipate it.
I mean, no single
prominent economist
anticipated the timing and
nature of the economic crisis.
Although it's only
one of the factors,
the global economic
crisis is still
shaking the world up, especially
in industrialized countries.
Because, for example, levels of
income for lower level workers
have fallen since then,
and welfare states
are under strain, and
it's not fully resolved.
So that's certainly
an important part
of the kind of dislocation, yes.
But it would be a mistake to
suppose that's the only thing.
Given that dislocation has
happened, where do we go next?
How do we respond to that
crisis and the expectation
people have been having?
Well, I think we
would have to analyze
the source of dislocation a
bit more, because you're not
dealing just with the aftermath
of the economic crisis.
You're dealing with
what that reflects.
The first globalized
economy ever,
which simply is not controlled
adequately globally.
We're still
struggling with that.
Easily the most
integrated world ever.
You know, I really
disagree with people
who say that globalization
is going into reverse.
Globally, it may be if that
just means economic integration,
and that may not be a bad thing.
But if it means
interconnection, which for me it
has always meant, actually,
this is a hyper interconnected
world.
What we're doing now
could be seen immediately
by someone in a remote,
rural area in China,
or anywhere in Africa.
This is really a world
awash with change.
In which I think what we're
doing now, because most of this
is digital,
photography is digital,
it reflects the sort
of broad effects
of the digital revolution.
And one of the things
one shouldn't do
is just identify it
with social media.
It's very important, but
the changes are structural.
For example, in labor markets
that I just mentioned, but also
in politics.
Because obviously,
politicians are visible.
Parliament is visible in
a way it never was before.
You've got 24 hour
breaking news.
What does that do to
people's consciousness?
We don't really know
because it's too new.
What we're doing now is not
just reflecting on a situation.
We are contributing to it.
The causes of
dislocation haven't
been adequately analyzed?
Sorry, say it again?
Would you say then, that
the causes of dislocation
haven't been
adequately analyzed.
We don't yet know what people
are turning towards, populism
or turning away from.
Oh, I think we know.
I don't think you
should go straight
from these global changes
directly to populism.
That would be a mistake.
What you've got is a period
of really big dislocation,
socially, economically.
Probably the key factors,
or two of the key factors,
the ones I've mentioned.
You know, the rise of
the digital revolution,
and much greater global
interconnectedness.
But a huge feature of it
all is the rise of China.
That is transforming the
balance of power in the world.
We don't know what will
happen to American power,
but certainly
American global power
is no longer unchallenged.
China is rivaling the US in
most aspects of its influence.
This, to me, very
positive process.
1.2 billion people
raised out of poverty.
That is something else.
So, I mean, you've
got a shifting
of the tectonic
plates, if you like.
Which even filters
down, to my view,
in the era of globalization, to
just small things about people.
You're probably wearing
a shirt made in China.
I mean, I actually
got mine in London,
but it wasn't made in London.
Very few things
that you see and use
are made in any single place.
I mean, I describe it as a
world which has moved off
the edge of history,
because no one has ever
lived in a world like this
before, ever, in human history.
It's especially important to
note that relates to populism,
because if you're a migrant
coming from Africa, trying
to cross the
Mediterranean, you've
got the same kind of gear
as we're operating with.
Not as high tech as the
one I'm looking at now,
but a lot of migrants
have got smartphones.
They use them to
navigate their passage.
The smugglers advertise
on the internet.
They try and outwit
the authorities, who
try to outwit them digitally.
And I think you should
remember that Africa
used to be thought
by the Westerners
like a dark continent.
I think there was a
bit of racism in that,
but it meant that they were
kind of outside the world.
Once you've got the
digital revolution which
gone to poor people everywhere,
no one is outside the world.
And again, that's
historically unprecedented.
Let's say I'm - God
forbid, a member of ISIS
- I lop off
somebody's head, then
I could pull out
my mobile phone,
I could switch on BBC iPlayer.
And I could watch a
debate on Islamic State
in the House of Lords.
What kind of world is that?
Is it surprising that
it's pretty dislocated?
But I think it's a great mistake
just to succumb to pessimism,
because it's a
fantastic mixture.
You know, I call it a high
risk, high opportunity society.
The opportunities are
just gigantic as you
can see from the case of China.
But the risks are also gigantic.
And since we don't have much
historical experience of them,
you can't do like
statistical analysis.
So every time you
get into a car,
I could tell you what the
chances of you being in a crash
unfortunately are.
But you just don't know
with climate change.
You don't know with
the global economy.
You don't know with
the world population
rising to 10 million people.
But, it's important neither
to be sort of blithely
optimistic, nor
Spenglerian pessimistic.
Except it's very
dangerous down the edges,
because of the existence
of nuclear weapons.
Great.
I think-
Is that it?
Well, I think I'll
let you say if there's
anything else that
you haven't mentioned
that you think is important
to add to this conversation.
OK fine.
Do you want me to
write something else?
If there's anything else
that you want to say that
we haven't talked about yet.
Well, the issue
before the conference.
Do you want me to talk
about the conference?
Yes, please.
The issue before the
conference is essentially,
where do we go from here
in terms of reconstruction?
And it's right to
say that if you
want to call it that,
reinventing democracy has
to be a key part of it.
One mustn't be, however,
too naive about this.
There are many interesting
experiments in democracy.
I think we should look,
not just at what's
going on in the digital
world, to see those,
but also what's going
on in all the cultures.
There's a man called John
Keane who wrote, I was going
- Can I stop?
I was going to say, I was going
to mention at the conference.
There's a man called John
Keane who wrote 1,000 page book
on the history of democracy.
And he says we've got
it absolutely wrong.
Democracy did not
originate in Greece.
Democracy originated in many
cultures around the world,
including Islamic ones.
It will follow that we should
look to a range of examples
around the world,
not just think,
oh, this is the digital age we
must have a digital democracy.
I think that's much
too simplistic,
and you must recognize that
all forms of direct democracy
are dangerous.
So you have to be pretty
careful with them.
These, let's say, referendum.
You have a referendum
in Switzerland,
it's all very nice and
comfortable and very useful.
You have a referendum in the
UK, and an already polarized
society is a disaster
for the country.
Margaret Thatcher
was right to say
referendums are the instruments
of dictators and demagogues.
Do you think, though, that
through digital technology,
there are opportunities to have
citizens engage more directly?
We're not taking direct
democracy and referendums.
But to participate more
actively, I suppose.
Well, through digital
revolution you clearly
have the possibility
of direct participation
in many ways, which
we should encourage.
We obviously know
what some of those
are because referenda
can, to some extent,
even be carried out
digitally, and there
are many things like that.
There are many local experiments
worth making, you know,
citizens juries can
be partly carried
online, et cetera, et cetera.
Except, one must not suppose
the problems of democracy
can simply be solved
through democracy.
And one must recognize that
democracy is vulnerable,
and therefore you have
to tread with caution
in any direct social
experimentation, I think.
As I say, it's one thing
experimenting in Switzerland.
It's another, let's say,
experimenting in Hungary, which
has got a transformative thing.
And as regards populism.
So I say.
Populism is a nostalgia.
It's linked to sort of huge
concerns about migration.
But migration, you should
remember, is global.
And we are participating
as we sit here.
I mean, we're elite migrants.
We sit here in a very
comfortable environment.
We expect to get on planes
and go all over the world.
We don't necessarily
want poor people
to feel they can do the same.
So, you know, there are a
complex of issues there which
you cannot be too
simplistic about.
