Hello and welcome to what, to me, could be the most important episode I record on the Black Ducks
Perhaps... Meaning, I haven't spoken often about the reasons why I, for example, made something like the Black Ducks.
Uh.. Perhaps, todays episode, the central object of it is one of the principal reasons that heavily encouraged me...
to make the program, the Black Ducks.
And it is the-the-the defense of the oppressed or the defense of the vulnerable. That is perhaps the...
..the foundation or the principal reason, to be honest, that drove me to making the Black Ducks program.
It is the defense of any human being or any individual experiencing oppression and...
perhaps this reason is present... this reason...
this reason, meaning... or the presence of this reasoning in me or in my life has its own causes as well.
Causes, the explanation of which, is long. The conversation regarding it is long but to summarize, I-I, when I was young...
..I traveled with my family to an Arab country, I mention it with all the respect and position, honestly. It was Jordan.
Oman, and a hail, of course to all the Jordanian brothers because many of them are my friends to this day.
And the beginning of my schooling was in a school in Oman. And I was the-the-the...pretty much the only Egyptian in the class.
Honestly, oppression of any kind was not directed at me but the entire time, I was constantly feeling that I was different.
..feeling that I was different from the surrounding culture, from the traditions, from the speech, from even the jokes.
Jokes that all the Jordanian youth found funny, I didn't necessarily understand. So there was constantly a feeling of..
..like, I was in a place.. uh.. not suitable to me or a place I couldn't integrate with enough.
Of course, I wasn't understanding, at the time, of what I am currently explaining but I had a constant awareness that I was weird.
And I wanted to participate with the other kids-for example, among the things that to this day, I [laughs]
Meaning, it's got on my nerves, there's a very famous dance in Jordan. Of course all the Jordanian brothers know, It's the "Dabka"
The youth stand next to each other, like so, and they dance the Dabka... So I had a problem in that I didn't know how to dance the Dabka.
So all my friends, when they went to dance, in any occasion, like I would encounter a problem with dancing like they do.
And naturally, every time I learned a particular dance, I am surprised, the next time, with a new dance other than the one I learned the first time.
So how hard is it for the person, meaning to summarize, so I don't take too much of your time, we'll begin with my good friend, George Paul...
Today, in a new episode of the Black Ducks. How hard is it for a person to feel.. I won't say I was oppressed..
but how hard is it on a person to feel that he's got no place or is unwelcome or... uh
or how hard it is on a person to feel disadvantaged or a feeling that he is.. uh...
Everyone around him is not, meaning, not accepting of him or don't understand his habits or they don't understand his faith or thoughts and so on.
Naturally, when I returned to Egypt, after a long time in Jordan, I became an Egyptian in the middle of the Egyptians...
..so It was naturally, a feeling, from my perspective, it was a good feeling...
..even though the problem became that I, because I spent so long in Jordan, my tongue or my accent started warping.
So I came here and I was speaking with a strange accent unlike the one that all Egyptians speak.
So that too, was another problem. But, what I noticed when I came to Egypt is the.. the oppression of the Christians.
I always had a problem, a guilt complex, that I always felt that there was a kind of persecution of sorts, being implemented on the Christians.
Or I saw that the Christian, or the Egyptian citizen that was Christian, I saw that he was as I was in Jordan.
Stranger or minority or I don't have friends so.. perhaps I failed in explaining to you this position in a clear way but..
In my talk, today with George Paul,  George will be able to relate to you, his story as an Egyptian Christian in Egypt.
I wish that we, I mean, be understanding or receive George Paul's words as a personal experience.
I, to be honest, was affected greatly when he... You all, of course, know that George, it's not his first time with us on the Black Ducks.
I recorded with him, a lot but I was, honestly really moved when he told me these things and I said to him...
"George, at some point, we have to make an episode about everything that you were exposed to and seen as an Egyptian Christian."
He is, of course, at this time, no longer Christian or anything but we are going to move the episode along today..
with me as the "cute Muslim".. the Muslim that says immediately that Christians are our brothers and he'll play the Christian...
.. and we'll see how he lived for so long in Egypt and present this experience that I see, honestly, as the tragedy of George Paul.
I wanted to name the episode, "George's tragedy" but afterwards I decided not to dramatize it.
We'll call it, "George Paul's story in Egypt".
Let us welcome George, I apologize for the long introduction and we'll start this show of ours.
Hello, and welcome, George. I am very happy with your presence here with me today, my friend.
Hello, Ismail. I'm happier to be with you. It's been a while the we haven't recorded together.
so... It's a good opportunity to be with you and your audience and hopefully, I mean, they enjoy my tragedy today..[laughs] this tragic film.
I, honestly, George, don't know where to begin or don't know where to begin with you..
I mean, perhaps, the episode today isn't traditional, I'm not going to tell you..
"You were Christian and then later left Christianity or went to Islam [laughs]"
Todays episode isn't like that at all. Todays episode presents the struggles of a child...
... who found himself, a Christian in Egypt and found all his neighbors, Muslims, for example. [laughs]
I, honestly, honestly George, when I imagine this situation. When I visualize it, I feel fear or I feel dread.
I'm a small child of 6 or 7 years.. or 10 years, I'm a Christian... uh I go to church..
..and everyone around me is a Muslim. They see what I do as something wrong or something imperfect.
Or just because I was born to a Christian family therefore I'm a Christian.
Where do we begin with you, George, or where would you like to begin with your story?
I'd like to begin with early childhood because it was a sad and depressing childhood..
..that my rotten luck fated me to be born in this country...
..as a strange person or as a minority, I experienced persecution twice in this country.
Once when I was a Christian, because I was Christian and a second time when I was an Evangelical because I was a minority inside a minority.
I mean, I was Christian, my family sent me to an orthodox church until I was 10 years old and afterwards I decided to leave the orthodox church...
..and go to the protestant church so persecution fell upon me once because I was Christian and once again because..
I was a secondary minority within the Christian community. The protestant minority. So I experienced the persecution of the protestants at the hands of the orthodox.
In short, the Egyptian citizen has this weird thing where he is always right and is extremely partial to his opinion.
Regardless of his religion, regardless of its form, he's very radicalized and he doesn't like minorities.
Even if it's in the same religion, you worship the same god still, he doesn't like minorities. He doesn't like that you be different from him.
And if he feels you're different, he must make life harder for you. This is the...the mood he has...
That he makes life harder for you because you're less than he is.
The.. I want you to-I know that your memory is strong and that your musing on details are many.
I want you to, like, go back to the days in preparatory. Your first memories-[laughs] painful memories in preparatory school.
Tell us about this stage in your life. What it was like and what do you remember of oppression or discrimination that was directed at you in this stage?
In the beginning of first preparatory, when I just enrolled in school, of course at that age, 6 years, I was minimally aware that...
..there was a difference between me and other people. like what you hear in the home and in the street, for example.
If you're a Christian, we have in us, something different from these people.
Still, you're not very aware, at 6 years, you're not aware what it is that sets you apart but you know that there is something.
So at the very beginning when I was introduced to the "religion class" (mandatory religious studies in public school) My first lecture on religion.
So I found that they were calling me.. me and a few others and they told us to leave the classroom.
Because the religion teacher was coming to get us to have us attend the religion class. So this is the first shock where you don't understand I mean, "What's happening?"
"..and why did I have to get up and Ahmed, next to me or Mahmoud didn't go?"
So the religion teacher began explaining to us that this was the Christian religion class because we were Christians, different, we have a different book.
Naturally my initial shock was this is the first day and I had just received my books. I was looking at the books next to me and found that he had the Muslim religion book and I didn't have it.
I thought there was something wrong so I started crying. "Maybe, I lost a book or something." [laughs]
The teachers kept on trying to make me understand, "No, you're Christian. You don't get this book. You never lost anything. You never really received it."
The problem began with encountering the Muslim kids in school and this is a hideous thing in Egypt.
You're in 1st Prep, Christian, your name is George, your name is different from everyone else's (Christian name) and then...
The incident I told you about yesterday, a kid in the 4th year, 4th prep, he's still a child. 9 years or so. We were in recess...
..and he stopped me. This was the first blow to me, I mean, in feeling that I was hated or there's something wrong... He stopped me..
..and I don't know how he found out, maybe it's because I had this impotent cross on my wrist...
Likely, saw the cross and he stopped me, in the middle of the yard and pushed me to a corner walkway..
..and he smacked me to start off [laughs] so I'm startled. I'm in 1st prep, can't defend myself, my body is too small.
"What's your name?" He asks me.
I told him ''George." He tells me "That's a girls name."
"You have to tell me your real name." and every time I tell him George, he smacks me so I admit my "real" name.
"Are you Christian, boy?" "Yes, I'm Christian." [smack] so I kept being smacked for about 15 minutes or so.
My face was so red from all the smacking and I cried. Afterwards recess ended and we had to go to that stupid roll call formation to go back in class.
So I was disturbed, crying hysterically and I went to the gym teacher that was leading the formation.
"Teacher, there is a boy named yatta yatta, hit me."
He told me "Get out of here, boy." (colloquial dismissal)
This incident informed me that I was different and that this difference is hated.
A part of me is hated.
After this, these kinds of encounters continued.
And my preparatory was filled with days of me returning from school with torn clothing, broken buttons..[laughs]
my bag having been defaced or ripped apart, my books-I mean, constantly in this way.
..detergent, for example, about a quarter mile dropping on the ground.
Another beautiful incident, having to do with this amazing cross..
We had, in class-I was in 2nd at the time, and my classmates, it turns out in (Muslim) religion class or in the mosque or so...
..they teach them that the Christian child is rotten, he smells bad and there is something wrong with him.
I mean, he's an infidel and a son of a dogs religion. I'm in 2nd prep, I don't even know the word, infidel or otherwise but that's what they taught them.
One time I was coming home, they grabbed me after I exited out of the school gates, they held me in the street next to the school gate...
..two or three of my classmates and everyone brought their older brother, cousin or some such. They surrounded me.
And they wanted-they thought that this cross.. they didn't know it was a tattoo. They thought it was something I stuck on my hand or drew it or something so..
..they wanted to erase it. So they restrained me. Appreciate this, a group of seven or six holding you down from every limb and covering your mouth.
And they're trying to erase it. At first they tried to erase it with their hands. It didn't come off.
[laughs] They produced a tissue and began wiping... It didn't work.
Appreciate the foulness, "Spit on the tissue. Maybe if you spit on it and use something wet to wipe.."
Absolutely disgusting, a rotten kid spitting on the tissue and trying to wipe the cross on your hand, off.
It still didn't get wiped off.
It got into his head that this is maybe dried ink or something..
..so if he could, maybe, get a rock... and scrape the cross off.
So they got a rock and proceeded to scrape at my cross in order to erase it.
It didn't come off.
So their ringleader got an idea in his head, "Why doesn't this cross get erased?"
He's an animal, he doesn't understand that it's a tattoo, no, he said that this is a curse from god.
"God is angry with this boy so he stuck the cross on his hand."
"So we'll leave it at that." After, of course, I was beaten soundly.
George, after, I mean, after you grew a little more mature and began to understand what's happening around you...
..Did you notice that all the Christian kids or youths went through similarly, traumatic experiences in school?
..or were you a special case or an oddity?
i.e. Not every Christian child goes through the same bad experiences that you went through?
I mean, what percentage, from your estimate as an individual who has matured, who sees the bigger picture and understands what's happening...
Do you think that the Christian youth in schools in Egypt are being exposed to what you endured?
..or were you, for example, in a particular school or place in Egypt that has an extreme minority of Christians or there weren't other Christian kids?
The situation, naturally, varies from one province to another, one place to another or one school to another.
I mean, if you're in a government school this will expose you to the butchers kid, the plumbers kid, the thugs kid and the unemployeds kid.
The dirtier kinds of people.
As opposed to if you were in, say, a private school that has a kid... His father's a doctor, his father's an engineer, his father's a lecturer.
So with respectable people... I think the violence is somewhat diminished.
But what I've concluded after looking at the big picture and meeting with many Egyptian Christians.
Whether here, in America or in any other place, there was always some form of persecution being inflicted on them.
The method is defined by the area they live in.
If you're in a random place or a government school or something, what happened to me will happen to you quite regularly.
I or any other Christian like me but if you're in a higher class place or a private school or such, it's possible that it will be less intense.
But violence will be inflicted on them in one form or another.
Like when I, for example, went into secondary after all these ugly instances that happened to me in prep...
Our teachers still had a human side so the preparatory school teachers tried not to oppress us as Christians.
When I entered secondary, you found that the Arabic teacher was a mosques sheik. (Very Islamic)
Whatever the back ground, he's the Arabic teacher, the zabiba (Muslim prayer mark found on forehead) and he's the son of a dogs religion, a mosques sheik.
A different kind of aggression began to afflict us.
Firstly, of course, the violence of the kids, still in the same nasty place, my secondary school was next to my preparatory school...
..so the same dirty people that were with me in prep were with me in secondary. The violence evolved. It was no longer just kids trying to wipe off a cross.
No, it became beatings.
He sees you in the street, he watches what route you take home, so he can wait for you and attack you in the street.
They get their brothers or their friends and ambush you as your going home.
Without any reason, I mean, and that's the youth.
The teachers, on the other hand practice a different cruelty, I mean, I remember my Arabic teacher would..
..constantly loved to refer to the Sirah (Islamic texts mentioning Muhammad) regarding Christians and their beliefs while we're sitting in class.
..we, the 7 or 8 Christians in class of around 60..
And he's lecturing us about something that has nothing to do with religion. Give us, say, a story.
I remember in 2nd secondary, we had the story of Thutmose or something like that.
A story that has no relation to religion at all, I mean. He'll keep on twisting things until he reaches us and says..
"the Christians, the group called Nasara.." He'd always say the Nasara (Muslim name for Christians)
"..they too, have weird ideas like, god is not one god, no they've got his father, his brother, his aunt and uncle and whatever.."
He'd ridicule us in this a way.
So you, of course, can't respond because if you do, first of all he'll beat you, they practice physical violence just fine.
He can smack you some, hit you or do a bad thing on you.
Second of all, he can harm your grades. So you have to be like a muzzled dog, sit quietly and listen to what he's saying.
And the classmates around you celebrate when they hear this kind of talk. They start staring at you and after the lesson's over they come over and irritate you.
Because of what he said and you still can't retaliate or respond, I mean you have to keep your pace so you don't get more humiliated than you already have been.
I remember when I finished the preparatory stage in Oman, Jordan and I don't know, I mean my father came here in Egypt so I..
..enrolled in 1st secondary in Egypt. I remember it well. And it was perhaps the first time... there weren't any Christians in the class I attended in Jordan.
In Oman there were no Christians so when I enrolled in 2nd secondary here, in Egypt, It was my first time seeing..
..it was a weird thing for me to find kids in the class... "Those are Christians."
So I didn't understand what these people were about. "Christians.. What do you mean, Christians?"
Yes, for me it was something unintelligible. Enigmatic, something enigmatic, I didn't understand how those people thought.
Also I didn't know.. there was know language of dialogue, I mean, even in education. The schools and the educational system are the cause of all that's happening.
Because I remember, I didn't really even begin to know what Christianity and Christians were until later in life.
Seriously, I mean, I... some could be laughing at this or find it unbelievable but I, really, didn't understand what Christianity was until very recently.
So I would witness, whenever we were released from school, there were kids, my friends I played ball with or in class, close friends, I mean the group I'd walk home with.
They would sit and make fun of the Christians.. Or mock the Christians in a certain way, I don't recall the details.
But naturally, with hand signs, I remember-I remember, even though my memory isn't too good.
I remember the image of one of my friends, by the way, his name is Hossam, I remember Hossam hopping up and down and signaling to the Christians.
Doing something like this with his hands or his fingers and they were walking far away and he... I was..
The look of it was strange to me. "I don't know why he's doing this."
And I also didn't understand what he meant by those signs.
I didn't understand and, as they say, I was embarrassed. I mean, embarrassed to ask him "This thing that you're doing. What does it mean Hossam?"
I.. the kids around me understand what he's doing and are laughing so I, from my position, the situation or the scene was weird.
Not understood at all.
And the Christians were walking, say, 3 or 4 of them far away, looking at us then looking at him.
And there didn't seem to be any kind of reaction. They just continued on their way as if there was nothing happening.
But I remember this scene. Perhaps, this is the only scene I remember from 1st secondary.
I'm serious, I mean, because after I completed 1st secondary I went back to-we went back to Oman, Jordan.
My question, George, so we can get into the details and such.
I want to know how you felt. How did you feel in secondary when the Arabic teacher would..
Tell me, for example, try to remember a situation..
You, right now are about to receive an Arabic lecture. What are your feelings as you sit and wait for the Arabic teacher to come in and teach Arabic?
And did you expect him to touch on these subjects? Was the Arabic lecture, for you, a problem?
..or a source of worry, or disturbance or fear?
Talk to us about your feelings before the class starts and during the class as it goes along.
Okay, there's is just this small part about the previous question. Perhaps, it was rougher on me than other Christians because I was awkward.
And the awkward kid always gets it harder.
like, you know, there's the Christian kid that's completely numb, he doesn't flinch so he can get hit a couple times and keep walking.
..or a similar thing to what you described with your friend will happen to him, and he's keep walking.
I on the other hand would.. mess around a little, like "Why? Why wee you saying this?"
..so it was rougher on me.
Because just you, thinking that you can react or reply or to tell him "Why?" for example. Oh no then they'll make life even harder than they originally intended to.
Regarding the teacher. Naturally, I absolutely hated the Arabic teacher. It was a blazing hatred. I didn't want to ever see his mothers face.
The Arabic class, for me, was a worry that wouldn't go away.
I hoped to finish the year so I wouldn't see him again and we could possibly get an Arabic teacher who might be a little better.
It was always an issue because you knew before the lesson started, that he was coming, that he will antagonize you and that you can't retaliate.
You know, the feeling of defeat.. You're subdued the entire time, you know he's coming to put you down..
..and the problem with Arabic, its an extremely difficult subject on it's own.
It's not like, say, art class once a week. No, It's every day and sometimes twice a day.
So your whole week is garbage, every day you must see him and he must vex you.... And still, you can never respond.
If you respond, you bring upon yourself a problem and when you go home and, for example, tell your family.
"The Arabic teacher said yatta yatta today." They'll tell you, don't you dare, counter. Don't you dare, speak up.
Keep to yourself.
Be a fly on the wall.
So they watch you more.
They don't make you feel like what he's doing is wrong or try to talk to people to set things straight.
No, the Christian, in Egypt, with the tremendous  burden on his shoulders, he cannot speak out.
So your family scares you more. "Don't talk. Don't respond. Don't say. Keep to yourself. Be like everyone else."
"Your friends.. what do they do? They shut up so shut up like they do."
So you don't bring more problems onto yourself.
It was quite the misfortune.
I... Honestly, every time I imagine myself, first of all, because of the people who insult us and believe we are attacking Islam.
By the way, my family is Muslim. I love and cherish them very much. I have no problem with Muslims.
Just so the people who are trying to insinuate that we are attacking Islam and so on.. We..
I have many Muslim friends, and my family is Muslim so let's not make that implication.
We are discussing.. I mean, talking about... the reality or things that are really happening in our society.
This ends up causing or becoming a nurturing environment for extremism, terrorism and degraded civility.
We are trying... I mean, how long are we going to burry our heads in the sand? As they say.
Isn't it our duty to discuss the filth we have in our societies regardless of who it is, that's causing this filth?
Who's to blame and why its done.. We have to, at least, talk about it and live through it so it can be the beginning..
..of a solution or the beginning of an exodus from the state of iniquity we are living in, throughout our society.
It is not enough, of course, for the sheik and the priest to come out and kiss each other.(gesture) We have a real problem.
..In our Arab Muslim society, and we must start hashing out these issues, deliberating them and talking about them without drawing red lines.
But naturally, we must consider peoples feelings. Our goal is not to insult or disparage.
Our end game is to live together or to achieve a method of dialogue and debate. That is our goal.
So I wish that the irreligious brothers not insult the faithful and the faithful brothers not abuse the irreligious.
Let's try.. to be a little more civil than this. A little more modern than this and let's confer like so.
The thing I was wanting to tell you about, I forgot it while I was talking about this other subject.
You were on a beautiful, topic, that is "the ignorance of the other" but you are excused.
I mean, you lived outside of Egypt for a while and you lived in Jordan. There are no Christians in the area you were in. There was no church or anything..
So there's no.. no other side you have to know about. You didn't even really see them.
But when you're in a street, in a place, in a school with one Christian, usually born in the same place that you were born in.
And still have no idea about them at all. there were people with us in preparatory..
Born on the same street as I was, we go to the same school.. so he thinks you, as a Christian, he knows you are Christian so you are different but he doesn't know the difference.
He speculates that you're just like him in everything, you worship in the same way, you do the same prayers and fasting and everything..
..but because you're Christian, then you have a divine curse on you called "Christian" so you have more duties regarding this faith...
There was, for example, this might clarify the extent of the youngsters ignorance.
I think I was in 3rd or 4th grade, there was a guy living in our neighborhood, born there on the same day I was.
We go to the same school together.
I of course, was shunned by Muslims, I had no Muslim friends so he would try to be friendly with me, he'd talk to me.
At one point, we were walking, Eid al-Adha(Muslim holiday) was nearing.
An he starts talking to me, I found out he had come up next to me because we walk the same route to the same place home.
so he tells me..
"Eid is in a few days so we're going to sacrifice a goat." so I said to him "Okay."
Then he said "Because you're Christians, you'll sacrifice a duck or a goose, for sure, you all don't sacrifice goats."
So he thinks we celebrate the same holiday but because we're Christians, we don't slaughter goats, we slaughter ducks or geese. That's the difference.
Ramadan, for example, "Why aren't you fasting?" He'll ask you. "Why are you drinking water?"
He imagines that you fast like he does.
He knows nothing about you. You're different, he doesn't know why, he thinks that you just do more things.
The point you stopped on, certainly, is an important point and it is "the ignorance of the other."
And this was a point I had eagerly wanted to ask.
This is a subject I'd like to talk with you about and hopefully, the viewers also try to deliberate on it. The ignorance of the other.
I remember knowing nothing. I'll give you an example, George, so that the meaning hits closer to home.
We are always taught to say "the heavenly religions"
This phrase is abundant in popular culture, media and in the articles referencing religions.
I was surprised, later in my life, that there isn't anything called "heavenly religions" or "the three heavenly religions"
The only people who say "the three heavenly religions" or adhere to this phrases meaning are Muslims.
Because..
Yet one more of my astonishing (sarcasm) discoveries, that the Jews recognize, neither Christianity nor Islam.
I mean, the Jews in Judaism do not acknowledge, either Christianity or Islam. (as inspired by god)
..and Christians don't recognize Islam. (as inspired by god)
At all.
So this subject was a discovery, for me. I didn't know this. I understood it, exactly the same way George's recounted Muslim neighbor did.
It was my understanding that, just like the Muslim thought, the Christians know that Islam is an alternative and acknowledge its legitimacy as a religion.
But they're different because they chose to, because they're father is Christian, so my understanding also, was not so clear.
It was blurred on this subject.
But these were my conjectures, no one.. No one will partake of this subject dispassionately.
Because everyone who tutored me or everyone who taught or guided me was a Muslim.
So it follows that he'll tell me that there are three religions that came from god.
But when I grew older, I began to read from different sources and started being introduced to alternative sources.
I uncovered that Christians don't adhere to Islam nor do they adhere to Islam's prophet and this surprised me.
This point, George, it's important that you tell us about your view point when you grew older.
Who? What? How.. Should we learn about various religious concepts?
I, as a child, for example, had 7,8 or 10 years, I'm in school and say, I'm a Muslim child.
How should, in your opinion George, because if we converse about religion in 1st prep or 4th prep how do we make them know what Islam, Christianity and Judaism really mean?
Should we do it from a Muslim perspective?
Should we do it from a Christian perspective?
You understand what I mean?
And, expectantly George, while you're at it, tell us.. they.. you, what did you understand about Islam?
I mean, when you were a Christian kid in 4th prep what was your understanding of Islam?
Did they tell you that Islam was a legitimate faith but we as Christians don't believe it.
Or do they tell you that this is a false religion and... like, what did they tell you, exactly?
I'm sorry, be patient with me.
It's no problem. The concept of educating kids about religion in schools. I'm absolutely against this idea.
The principal is that a child goes to school to receive knowledge.
If you want to know religion, to know alternative religions.. (go to) Any catastrophe (colloquialism) in a mosque, in a church or some other place like that.
The school is not a religious institution nor is it a place of faith from which to receive religious guidance.
The problem is that in Egypt, religious study of the sort you're speaking of, it's all from the Islamic perspective.
So one is, for example, sitting in the religion lecture or the Arabic lecture, sitting with the Muslim student..
They teach him what Christianity is from the Muslim perspective so he'll say to the child...
"Christians worship 3 gods." and "The messiah.. the virgin did inappropriate things" things of this nature.
"Christians kiss each other in the dark in churches on new years eve."
"Christians, they.. You know those pompous ceremonies Christians have.."
So you find the student coming out, giving you a look of disdain the entire time. In his mind you...
..New years eve you go to church, turn off the lights and the priest makes out with you. [laughs] something weird like that.
That's all the information, I mean, all he receives comes only from the Arabic or religion teacher, period. That's the source of education.
And he doesn't ask you about anything. When he has the urge to know.. You as a Christian are warned at home not to talk about religion.
I remember one time a boy was with me..
Very innocent guy, one time, he saw that I had an image with me.
An image of one of the saints. So he wanted to know who it was and the image was morbid, like his eye was pierced. Something nightmarish [laughs]
So he wants to know why his eye is poked out and why does he look like that and who is it.
The image fell from my pocket. He took it.
He kept holding it "Did anything of yours get lost?" "Yeah." "This?"
"I won't give it back to you unless I know who's in the image."
So of course, my families talks started drilling in my head. "Don't you dare talk about religion with anybody."
So I stood firm in not telling him until I took back the image. I didn't tell him who it was, didn't tell him his story nor why his eye was bad.
Because I was scared they would tell me I was evangelizing and accuse me of something illegal.
So absolute refusal to talk on the subject of religion. The entire time, you're terrified of discussing faith because they'll accuse you of evangelizing.
So stay far away from that subject. I mean, don't talk about it at all.
Until the end of secondary, perhaps, whenever belief was brought up, I avoided speaking of Christianity completely.
My personal knowledge of Islam was, actually, quite good. I mean, you're surrounded by it from morning to night.
From the beginning at 1st prep, I could hear the Islamic call to prayer before I enrolled in school. So it was memorized.
And on TV, after the call to prayer, they'll put on the "honorable hadith" from "Abu Hureirra Allah accept him on the prophet yatta yatta.."
You know, so you're knowledge (of Islam) is great, I mean.
One, all this crap you go through and then you go to school and find there are quranic verses to memorize, hadiths.. uh (Islamic)stories. So your understanding is fine.
But he, the Muslim sitting next to you, doesn't know any thing about you at all.
All he knows is the is the few absurdities that are said as a way to disparage or degrade Christians and that's all he knows about you as a Christian.
You directed my attention to a good... point. The Christian children have a good idea about what Islam is because they are immersed..
A little of the Call to prayer, a little of the religious programs on TV..[laughs] this is excluding..
This is excluding the month of Ramadan that is saturated with the Quran..[laughs hysterically]
[laughs]
So I think, George, if you were in 3rd secondary and they gave you an Islamic studies test, I think you would've got a good score.
Where as the child like myself, the Muslim kid, doesn't know anything about the Christians.
I tell you, I've said this many times, I said it with brother Rasheed.
And they think I'm joking. I don't know people think I'm kidding. All I knew about Christians, I swear to god.
I'm being honest, I swear, I'm not messing around. All my information about Christians was that they smelled bad.
This was the only clear fact.
Everything else, for me, was debatable. Like "What's that ladies image there?" I don't understand. "This bearded guy they keep hanging up every where." What's with that?
Because we had neighbors, even in Jordan, I remember we had Christian neighbors and maybe..[laughs]
Those neighbors were the ones that broke the stereotype of Christians smelling bad.
Because I liked the girl next door. They had a girl I had a crush on.
So I was very studious in late secondary and we used to study together sometimes.
Her mom would come over to my mom and tell her "Your son is studying with the girl." or..
So when I was next to her, and I hail her if she's watching, I love her a lot... [laughs]...
I would smell her fragrance and it smelled good... [laughs hysterically]..
[laughs].. so I'm sitting next to her and I start smelling. I want to make sure. [laughs]
So the girl, in all honestly, smelled great. It wasn't good, It was great, I mean.
So I began to doubt this fact. I mean, I became critically skeptical of this fact.
When I sat next to their house.. there was another house, inside it, were Christian Egyptian workers.
I would pass by that house and so I would smell the smell of cooking.
It would be a smell... you know Egyptian houses, every house, inside it you get used to the smell of your own cooking.
If you walk by another house, you'll smell cooking but different, not the same aroma as moms cooking.
So I- they were, there cooking smell was different from mine but I..
Because all of the times it was repeated, "Christians smell bad. Christians smell bad."
I convinced myself that the smell of the cooking was the bad smell they're referring to.
And I.. yeah, I'm being frank, the proverb goes "The whispering in the ears is more effective than sorcery."
The idea was repeated often so I was looking for anything to prove to me that Christians smelled bad.
But that girl smelled great.
So this was the first time I doubted this saying or this tidbit.
So I, really, as a Muslim child, had know real information on Christianity.
I apologize, I might've asked this question earlier and you answered but the reply didn't hit home, George.
Young children.. They classify them, "This one's Christian. This one's Muslim."
How, possibly, can they, if they receive religious education, how would we provide them with it?
I understand that both you and I are against the principal of religious education in the first place.
But.. if we are obliged to do so, the Muslim must take Islam in school. And the Christian must take Christianity in school.
How can we develop this?
Or make it more.. Make of this reality something less traumatic on the children.
And the suffering, we used to suffer, George, you endured and I endured when we were kids.
How? What can we do to ensure the kids don't see what we've seen in schools when we were younger?
The solution is for us to stop segregating kids and associating others with wickedness.
That's all because the concept of teaching them about religion is a very evil thing.
Secondly, who's religion are you teaching them? like, for example if you're trying to teach the Muslim student in school...
If we, hypothetically, try to teach him about Christianity. Which Christianity?
Do we teach him about the orthodox because it's the predominant sect or all the other sects?
Or are we going to introduce him to something else? So it should be that we don't tell him anything about it and let him figure it out on his own.
If he wants to but don't insulate, don't shield him from people.
Don't make him hate his Christian classmate, sitting next to him.
Just because you told him a few bad things about the Christian. That's all.
Let's refrain from the bad-I mean, why is it in the preparatory curriculum, there is a description of Christians as pigs and monkeys and so on.
So they looking at you and wonder, "Where's the snout, where's the tail?"
"Where's the monkey tail?" your a monkey or a pig.
You know the gullibility of a child at that age, he doesn't know any better.
When he's told that Christians are the descendants of monkeys and pigs it gets in his head that you have a tail.
So why, even, say verses such as these? If, you're going to give him a religious lecture, why not tell him verses about
For example, verses like, It's sin to steal, sin to kill whatever and that's all, I mean, a general religious study that teaches him good principals.
Why talk to him about the other people or-I memorized the Fatiha (first prayer in the Quran) in 1st prep.
More than the Muslims sitting in the class. Several times, our religion teacher would leave and we weren't allowed to talk. They'd tell us to study something else.
They'd say, "The Christian teacher isn't here today so you'll sit with us in the Muslim class. All the Christian kids, pull out the math work and do it."
So your sitting there, listening to the Fatiha, they're trying to memorize it and tomorrow they'll recite. I already memorized it and I wanted to get up and say it.
Because I knew it. [laughs]
You find the Muslim kids having trouble with it so you want to help them cheat. You know the, "No no, it goes like this."
Why? Because you memorized it and he didn't. [laughs]
Yes.
Okay. We'll make a leap to the relation between boy and girl.
Religion or not, regardless of Muslim and Christian, I mean, there are some big problems with there being a boy having a relationship with a girl, fro example.
It's very hard, even if they're both Muslim, or both Christians, it's very hard for them to interact or become friends.
Especially inside our government schools domain.
You, as a Christian youth, tell us about your feelings when you were.. uh.. thinking about the opposite sex.
Were there "forbiddens"? You couldn't, say, approach a Muslim girl? Nah, maybe you could say hi?
Maybe you could like a Muslim or it's impossible. Or is this off limits?
What did they tell you at home? Or the church? How was your relationship with girls? Tell us your feelings as an adolescent youth towards the opposite sex in society.
The concern was raised before adolescence, It began in 2nd preparatory. You know the..[laughs]
In the classroom we have coed, most public schools are, in Egypt.
When I first walked in, naturally, I didn't know the difference nor did I know that some things were forbidden.
When I was in class, for example, I liked Nesma, I remember Nesma. She was very pretty.
She's Muslim but they didn't have her where a hijab. Her hair was normal but I knew she was Muslim because she was in the Islamic studies class.
But I really liked Nesma and I wanted to talk to her so I went to my mother and told her, "I love Nesma and want to marry her."
[laughs] and I'm in 2nd preparatory.
My mother told me, "Nesma, Nesma who?" "Nesma Mohamed." I replied...
She said, "Don't risk going near her."
So as to say that she will cause me problems but she didn't explain.
So I wasn't convinced.
By 4th preparatory, Azza showed up.
I was infatuated with Azza as well. So I went and told her, "I want to marry Azza."
[laughs]
So she explained to me, that it would be a black catastrophe if I approached a Muslim girl, this would have them target me.
"They'll make you get engaged and convert to Islam and will cause problems for you." so I got scared
I stopped talking to Azza completely even though Azza would talk to me just fine. But I was put off, scared.
Better not, or they'll force her on me or something, of course, I was a naïve child in 4th prep with no understanding of the world.
I was told they'd accuse me regarding her, so I thought, "No, even though I want to marry her, I don't want to get beaten or go to jail."
So I was finished with Azza. "So what do I do now, mom?" Then she said to me..
..to talk to the Christian girls.
The class has only two ugly (Christian) girls.
Just two girls and they were ugly.
So I was repulsed by them. I didn't want to have anything in common with them. I liked Azza and I liked Nesma, you know?
[laughs] But the entire time, I wanted to talk to Azza, I wanted to talk but I was afraid.
And I start talking to Christina but Christina looks like her father.
She was only missing the mustache. It was an undesirable situation. The entire time, you're scared.
Until preparatory ended and I started going to church more regularly in secondary.
And there was a church club where I found Christian girls that looked good.
So you want to stay there and forget about Azza, Nesma and the like.
Of course, Azza and Nesma, when they got to secondary, they started wearing the hijab and were enrolled in all girl schools so it ended the relationship.
Naturally, during the teenaged years, the terror I experienced in preparatory stayed with me and kept me wary of...
..even to, when you get to college for example, you are wary of getting to know a Muslim girl.
I mean, the beginning of the year, It's a new place and people are introducing themselves to each other.
You watch out. If there's a girl wearing hijab, and you get a glimpse of her from 2 kilometers away, run in the other direction.
You don't want her anywhere near you.
And if she, say, comes and asks you for a paper or about a section or anything, keep your eyes on the floor and your face in another direction. Answer quickly so she can leave.
Because you're afraid they'll accuse you of getting with her.
[laughs] It's over for you, you're completely deterred from them.
What do you mean? Forgive me, George, what do you mean by they'll target you because of her? Can you elaborate for us what this means?
I personally didn't understand, naturally when I finished secondary, I understood. It means..
They could.. whoever the girl is, Asmaa, Doa or whoever could say, "I'm pregnant with this guys baby or this boy had sex with me."
[claps] In this way, she has caught you. You must now change your I.D to Muslim because it's illegal to marry a Muslim girl when you're Christian.
They must convert you, change your I.D status and give you a Muslim name then you marry her.
They'll force her on you, I mean.
Especially the ones that have 7 or 8 thousand girls they're trying to marry off so they'll force her on you but you must convert now.
You mean, this is the one thing that was deterring you or were there other reasons?
Of course, you must worry that if you talk to a Muslim girl, the Muslim males won't let it go.
They won't like it. You're a Christian boy, a meatloaf, a torn feather, a pot finger. (Egyptian colloquialisms derogatory to Christians) talking with the Muslim sister.
Even though you're talking to her from far away or if you're handing her paper, for example you hold it with a pin or something so you don't touch her.
It'd be a disaster but still, the Muslim youth with the beard that adheres to the "light of knowledge" and "light of the aha (profanity)"...
That one will watch you and interrogate you. "You went near sister Asmaa. You want something?"
He might come over and talk to you. "We saw you talking to yatta yatta, what's with that?"
So you go, "No! I swear on the Quran, there's nothing." [laughs] "She came over, talked to me and I didn't want to. I'm sorry." [laughs]
My friend.. My friend, George... Yes.
Tragic. Tragic. A real tragedy.
The... Okay..
Let's go back a little because there are some people, as well as myself who were mixed up on this until recently.
You were Orthodox or Protestant?
What's the difference between them? Because there are some viewers watching and maybe, they don't know the difference between those two.
I personally didn't know the difference until a short period ago.
Were you Orthodox or Protestant and what's the difference between these two denominations?
The orthodox denomination is the predominant sect in Egypt. The majority sect similar to the Sunni majority.
The Protestant sect is a conglomerate of small churches, the Assemblies of god church, the prophets church, the evangelical church.
Theirs is a poor lot. Their numbers are small in any province. They all know each other and it's as much as they can do.
I.. When my parents begun to send me to church, they sent me to an orthodox church even though my father was an atheist.
The circumstances were such that I had to so he decided it would be better that I go to a church he knew as opposed to one he didn't.
I attended orthodox church until I was about 10 years old, about to hit 11.
I was extremely afraid of going to hell. I began conforming a great deal to the religion to avoid going to hell.
To the point where at, 5th preparatory, I wanted to be a priest.
I "discovered" this was the only way to salvation. If you become a priest you'll be immersed in faith, you won't do anything else so you'll go to heaven.
If you go to hell, it'll be a disaster.
I stayed in the church. From 3rd prep I went frequently. I attended meetings of altar boys and I wanted to be an altar boy.
And like so, I integrated a great deal with the faith. After a while.. At the start of 1st secondary, I began visiting the evangelicals.
Attending the evangelical church meetings because there were some cute girls there and I was allowed to do it.
So I found that what they said was more sensible than what the orthodox were saying. The orthodox is all about pomp and ceremony.
The protestant would open the bible, read something you had never read before, maybe, tell you about ideas you hadn't heard of before. It was a democratic church.
They don't forbid, fraternization. The orthodox church still has a separation between boys and girls.
But there was a mixing in the evangelical church.
I found out that there was no problem with intermixing. We weren't pouncing on each other or anything.
We attended mass together, after mass we would talk a bit. There weren't any complications, I mean.
I liked the evangelical church more so I became conflicted. "Which one is right?"
Until I learned that the evangelicals could prove that they were more correct than the orthodox, using the bible.
The orthodox sit there and tell you, this book, that book. I found the protestants, honoring it better or were more holistic.
I decided, at the end of 1st secondary, I wanted to be protestant and I was going to be a part of the evangelical church and that was it.
I stopped going to the orthodox church and became a protestant.
I didn't know the catch, that the orthodox now consider you a heretic to be burned.
Now.. you're.. All the divine anger will pour on you.
Because you left the mother church and went over to the wolves. The call them the kidnapping wolves.
The entire time, in school, "You're Protestant? You're an evangelical, boy?"
"Yes. I'm an evangelical." "Oh, you son of a bitch that doesn't believe in the resurrection. That don't believe in the saints."
That's on the level of the kids, your age. Getting into the level of the damned religious studies class that has no place in schools...
And you're in 11th grade, for example, you find the religious studies is taught by a Christian.
He's not a priest or anything, he just happens to be Christian. A chemistry teacher or a physics teacher, for example, but he's Christian.
He rounds up all the 11th graders and gives them the religious studies lecture.
As soon as you walk in, you see the blind devotion.
As soon as you walk in, "Anyone here, not orthodox?" You raise your hand.
He'll proceed to rip into you until the end of the school year.
The entire time, he'll throw things your way.
He'll give you the lecture, for example, "..and this part, the sacrament, protestants don't do sacrament am I right, George?"
"Protestants don't recognize the... Am I right, George?" You know, he's crapping on you year round.
A moment, what I gather from this, George, is that you were not persecuted, only, by the Muslims or the Christians.
I mean, It wasn't just the Muslim Arabic teacher oppressing you because you were Christian.
The Christian religious studies teacher, also oppresses you because you are a protestant Christian or evangelical, not orthodox. Is this accurate?
For sure ,100 percent but the difference, is the difference between persecution.
The Christian citizen has been enduring for 1400 years in Egypt. There's no better way to put it other than that he endures great hardship.
He can't vent unless he takes it out on you.
He won't, for example, beat you like the Muslims do or unlike the Arabic teacher, he won't degrade you but he'll poke fun at you the entire time.
The whole time, he's bothering you. The entire time, he wants to tell you, "You're wrong." or, "Your religion is wrong."
Or "Now you're a sinner." or "Now, you're going to hell."
There's a constant pressure on you.
In addition, if a priest comes over, an orthodox priest and he discovers you're protestant.
It becomes a calamity. He goes and talks to the Christian neighbors and tells them "That's a protestant house. We don't deal with it."
If you tried to get married, If it's your circumstance that you must marry in an orthodox church, you'll find that the priest goes around asking if you're orthodox.
If he learns your protestant, he'll refuse to marry you.
So who officiates your marriages?
You must go kiss hands and feet and apologize, "My religion is wrong and I'm an idiot." and... "I'll come back to the church."
This way, he'll be willing to show some magnanimity and he'll say, "Okay come to confessions every once in a while." so he can be sure you cut your ties with the evangelicals.
Then afterwards he'll pity you and marry you but someone has to vouch for you.
Our dad, aha (Egyptian profanity), knows your uncle so your uncle goes to him and says yatta yatta..
"He was a confused kid. He won't go back to the evangelicals. So he calls the priest that's supposed to officiate. "Please, do it for me" and so it goes.
You, sorry George, why don't you go to the protestant or evangelical church?
..and marry through them, I mean. What's the problem with that?
The problem, is that the woman you're marrying, her father is orthodox.
So you won't be allowed to have a ceremony in an evangelical church. It won't be legitimate. The orthodox consider protestant weddings, fornication.
Because marriage is considered a secret. It's called, "the secret of zyga" of the seven secrets of the church.
There has to be a priest. If there's no priest then it's fornication.
"So you'll take my daughter and live with her in sin? No, you must marry in an orthodox church."
"Deal with them and come back to me when they approve of you."
Ah.. As I understand it, if the bride was evangelical or the father of the Christian bride was evangelical, protestant, then there's no problem.
This way, you two can get married through the evangelical church. You wouldn't need the orthodox church at all, correct?
If, you're both protestants, yes but there's another problem in that the groom could be orthodox.
A bigger problem is that if the girls father is protestant then he won't baptize her in the orthodox church.
It would be a disaster. They won't marry her. She has to be baptized.
There are many mothers in the evangelical church who, once a daughter is born, they'll have her baptized in an orthodox church.
Why? Because if she marries an orthodox, some day, she'll have a certificate of baptism in the orthodox church.
So they can agree to marry her.
Aaah. A dark misfortune, brother. This is a maze.
Could you believe it, brother? Almost All the Muslims, don't know anything about this world.
I mean, I don't know but I, myself, had no idea about everything you've been saying.
Or I had no clue about all this, that you've related.... [laughs]
So George, are there other sects besides orthodox and protestant in Egypt?
There is an extremely small Catholic congregation. And those, you'll find them like the lords among men, I mean the Catholics, you'll find are the richest people in a province.
They keep to themselves  and are quite secluded so you never know much about them.
It's really difficult, I mean, they like for you to visit them and come to mass but for you to be one of them, you must have the same social status.
To be accepted among them.
Where is the, "Christian love and brotherhood"?
I mean where is this understanding coming from despite all this, that's happening?
What's your commentary, I mean?
No no no, what's your word, with clarity, on this saying? I mean, this phrase was repeated to me many times. "The messiah (Jesus Christ) loves his you."
Okay. Hypothetically, the messiah loves me and I have seen him. Where am I going to go among these sects? Which church exactly?
On this question, I had received a priest here a while ago. Do you remember 2 or 3 weeks ago, when I was talking to you? A priest had visited me, I mean.
He makes a list of the fools in an area and calls them, he gets their phone numbers from their friends and tries to visit them.
He procured my number from a friend of mine and he wanted to come visit me. So when he came over, I brought up this topic.
If, I started believing in the messiah, for example, which sect?
If I go to the evangelicals, I'm still condemned. If I go to the Catholics, I'm condemned. So you have to be the right one. What guarantees that you're the right one?
Has to start with the lines, Christ loves and so on but as soon as you repent, you have to be in my sect because that's the correct church.
So he proceeded to explain to me how all of these churches are wrong compared to the orthodox church. That the orthodox church was the core.
It is the source.
All the others, altered the teachings of Christ or deviated from the good path.
He concluded that the orthodox, the orthodox faith, was the correct one.
You will be Christian and you must be an orthodox Christian.
Naturally, the protestant also has the same two cents to put in.
For example, the protestants have this thing where you surrender your life to Christ, you know anything about that?
To give your life over to Christ and accept the new life and become renewed and all that superficial crap.
The protestant sees the orthodox, as lost.
So he wants to have him surrender his life to Christ so he can get into the afterlife because if he stays in the orthodox church, then he's committing idolatry.
He's damned, so you pity him. You try to talk to him about Christ. You want him to devote his life because your afraid for his soul.
They both see each other as completely wrong and that this way will send you to hell.
You grew up, passed through preparatory, passed through secondary and high school. Then you enrolled in college.
Tell us, then the nuances and quirks of George Paul. You told us a good few things about it already. I'm trying to remember some of the conversations we had.
What were the difficulties you ran into, in college, other than the fear of interacting with Muslim girls?
Actually, you told me once about a girl with uncovered hair that turned out to be Muslim, would you please tell me the story again.... Sorry. [laughs]
My first year in the university of Asyut, of course, the university of Asyut is said to be a "melting pot".
You found people from Alexandria, people from Tanta, people from Helwan, people from Cairo, people from Sohag, people from Asyut, everywhere (in Egypt).
My first year, of course you... Muslim girls where hijab. That's the standard, I mean.
Very few and far between, are the ones without so you don't expect a girl that isn't wearing hijab to be a Muslim.
As soon as I walked in, there was this beautiful Alexandrian girl. Her name was Nirmeen.
And she was wearing regular clothes, I mean she wasn't wearing the long dresses and the strange things.
Her eye brows weren't like Abi Lahabs in the old movies.
Muslims girls always had big eyebrows, its haram (a sin) to get them done, they're always wearing the veil and their mothers clothing.
Something... [laughs]
But the Christian, she might where a short sleeve shirt. Tight pants, no problem. She was dressed like this, she wasn't covering her hair and her name was Nirmeen (not traditional Muslim name).
So for sure, I thought she was a Christian. She was also constantly near us.
Christian kids, we were like flies on trash, as soon as we spot each other, we'd make our clique and no stranger would be a part of it.
Very hard to find a Muslim in a group like this.
She was attached to us. She'd sit next to us and talk to us so I thought, "Okay, this girl is a Christian."
So when I was among Christians, I'd say what was on my mind, how I felt, you know, "Muslims, are assholes and that (Muslim)brotherhood guy, is a son of a moron."
"I'd hate to see him again." I spill my guts, its normal.
"Islam has made our lives awful." And she never said anything.
She never commented on the things I said like it was normal. She'd listen and there wasn't a problem.
The whole thing was very nice... until the first day of Ramadan.
On the opening day of Ramadan, Nirmeen showed up in a hijab.
[laughs]
She came in a hijab and abstained from talking to boys the entire month.
As soon as I sew her coming, getting out of a taxi and she has a hijab on.
I saw this and I wanted the earth to open up and swallow me.
I had been speaking freely for two or three months, now.
And she heard it all, so if it's like this then it's a disaster.
Naturally, I avoided Nirmeen until the end of the year. There was no interaction at all afterwards even after she took off the hijab.
After Ramadan, she removed the hijab and came as usual. She started talking to boys again and so on but I..
That was that, never did a believer enter the trap twice(colloquialism). I was neither sitting with her nor would I speak to her.
A real crisis. We greet all our friends that are watching the live stream and we thank them for following us.
If there are any questions or comments you'd like to direct to George, please go ahead and do so. Barring insults and that kind of behavior.
George, what else happened at university that's worthy of talking about?
What comprised the obstacles you faced as a medical student? You were a med school student in the university of Asyut?
This occasion had happened to me a number of times before, in high school and in college. That is the interaction with the state security apparatus.
I won't go into detail but, in short, the security apparatus is very capricious.
Meaning, if you had a disagreement with a Muslim and there was the scent of religion, in any subject, the security apparatus may end you.
Without negotiation.
I was imprisoned twice because of a problem with a Muslim.
One of our neighbors was playing a cassette tape, you know, those big old ones with the large speakers?
She would play the Quran night and day. You couldn't study.
So you'd go over there, "Lady yatta yatta could you lower the volume a little?" "No, how, this is gods word."
"What do you mean you can't study. Go study somewhere else."
The issue developed, she went and made a complaint that I was transgressing against the word of god.
I was in high school, You know, you're still a minor.
It's not even allowed for you to be locked up like that. You're younger than 18 years old.
I was surprised that this was commonplace. An agent came and got me, sent me to the jail, the officers pummeled me and so on.
I signed a- Were you..? What grade were you in or how old were you at the time of this incident?
3rd year of high school. I was 17 years old.
Yes. Yes, continue.
So I was thrashed and the deputy threatened me at the end that he'd produce a warrant for my arrest the next time he heard my name.
I went home like a dog, but I was happy that I came back. Quran or no Quran, it was enough that I was able to go home(alive).
...you know, because I had to finish high school. (joke)
George, my regrets, but there are people who are requesting that you to recount this story in detail.
Tell us, in detail, what happened from beginning to end.
Forgive us one more time.
Reminisce and recount.
In the third year of high school, I.. as I was telling you yesterday, It was either the 2nd or 3rd year of high school.
In high school, I was attending a chaotic school. You could jump the fence at any time and leave.
So I would attend a few lessons so it would count towards my attendance because, you know absence, if it goes over 30 days, you get expelled and all that hot air.
So, I'd attend a few classes and at intermission, I'd jump the fence so I could go home and study.
At that point the school didn't have a relevant curriculum.
You either study at home or you get yourself a (private)lesson in a subject or two.
The rest of the subjects, you study on your own. The school teaches you nothing.
So rather than waste time in school, I'd go home and study there. At intermission, I'd jump the fence and go back.
By the 3rd year of high school, security was tighter. They raised the fence so it was harder for you to jump.
At that rate, I wasn't going to be able to study, the year would be lost and I wouldn't get the grades I was aiming for.
I ended up, rescinding my file in school and switching over to homeschooling.
This way, I could take the year in-house, and go test at the end of the year without a problem.
One of our neighbors was a very radical Muslim woman. Without reason, I mean. You know, she'd always verbally abuse us.
The dirtiest insults, "You damned, you Nasara, you satanic cross.." You know, the same old bull.
Besides the point.. The moment she realized I was being home schooled.. brought out the old Saudi cassete player with the insanely loud volume.
The moment you awoke in the morning, its 8 AM, or so. She'd open the windows and the doors. So that the sound spills out. She was directly under us.
It'd be the Quranic channel and the sound was extremely loud. It would vibrate the doors and the windows.
You're trying to study. You can't study. You can't concentrate.
You'd go down and knock on knock at the door, "Lady yatta yatta, we'd like you to lower the volume a little because I'm studying."
"No."
At one point, a problem occurred, I got into an argument with her son. She never lowered the volume, I mean.
On that day I had a lesson, and I was coming back in the afternoon.
I found an agent from the precinct waiting for me. He took me to the police station.
"Why?" "Because this lady filed a complaint on you saying that you were transgressing on the word of god, that you transgressed against her and verbally assailed her."
I'm the naïve Christian boy that doesn't understand how the world works. I just go to church and study. I didn't know anything outside of that.
I went to the police station. First time in my life, I went into a police station.
There was a fresh junior officer there at the time.
As I entered, "So your the punk who's defaming gods word."
He took off his belt and whipped me. [laughs]
He didn't, for example, take my statement, try to understand, "What did you say? What did you do?" No, none of that. No one received my statement on this incident at all.
I signed the charges without knowing what was written on them.
After I was mauled, I was put into another place, I got mauled there as well. [laughs]
Until about 2 or 3 PM they brought me back to the station. I stood before the deputy chief.
Of course, I had been beaten pretty badly.
After I was beaten, the deputy told me, if I hear or see your name again, I'm going to procure I'll ring you up on charges.
Go home and I don't want to hear from you again.
They gave me the charges so I could sign them. Of course, I was done, by then. I mean...
If you have a case, it doesn't matter against who, I'll sign it.
Anything you give me, I'll sign it. I don't know why I'm signing but I'll sign.
I signed the charges and I didn't know what they were.
I went home like a dog. The rest of the year, I tried to study.
I'd either manage to steal a couple hours before she wakes up, I'd go to the church and study there or sometimes I'd go to a park or some place and start studying.
Was this your first experience with-with the authorities?
It was the first experience, yes.
You said there were two, when was the second? Were you still in high school or had you graduated?
No, my second experience was in college.
The university of Asyut, I don't know why, at that time it was just after the terror attacks in the country so...
Campus security was replaced by police officers in other words, the security was provided by the police.
An the entrance of the building...I had an organic chemistry class, that day so..
I used to live in the student village and it was a Thursday.
I would catch the 11:30 or 12 o clock train home.
The distance between the campus and the train, by taxi, it takes about 10 to 15 minutes if there's traffic.
So I don't waste time and catch the train, I would take my bag with me as I leave the village in the morning. This way, when I finish my battery, I go straight home.
I won't have to go back and forth so much.
So, like any protestant Christian, only the protestants know what I'm talking about, I had my own personal bible.
The devout protestant keeps his own bible.
He put's it in a nice leather and inside I have my notes and comments and so on.
A particular word touched me so I circle it. That crap. [laughs]
I took this bible and put it in the bag.
There was an excerpt with me, I don't know what its name was, it was on of father Daniels.
A small excerpt, not more than 6 pages and it was very small. I mean, it was something that you wouldn't find unless you were looking for it.
I put it in, I put the bible in on top of it in the middle of my clothes.
I walk in, I don't know, I'm in and out, no one talks to me, I mean.
The officer, inexplicably, you don't know the circumstances, he took one hit too many or something. He told me to come over to him and questioned me about the contents of my bag.
Where I was going, my ID. I showed him my ID and told him I was going to class.
"Why'd you take this bag with you?" I told him my story. "Open it."
I open the bag, as soon as he sees the bible he takes it out and asks me what it is.
"It's a bible" "Why are you bringing it to the university?"
Then you sit there and explain that you're a devout protestant and you're supposed to keep a bible with you because it takes your sins every day.
That stuff won't work so I told him, I read it at home.
After that he rifled through the bag and found the excerpt. "Pamphlets!" [laughs]
Pamphlets now, this is recruitment and whatever.
The same treatment I received the last time, I received it again.
A friend of mine, his uncle is a lawyer, he went and got me. I didn't go home that night because I missed the train by then.
And that's all. I mean, some really wonderful things happen with Egyptian security forces.
On this, George, you're very lucky that you left.
Tell us about the moment that you traveled away from Egypt.
How did you leave, I mean, your emigration from Egypt, to America. How did it come to pass?
I.. after my last year in.. Since high school, I wanted to leave the country.
I had suffered much inside, you know, you're persecuted by every faction.
orthodox Christians persecute you because you are protestant.
The Muslims trouble you at every turn.
And I would respond a lot so I'd get in trouble, I mean, for example, if I'm taking the shuttle bus.
The sheiks are on the radio, Hassan, Yacub, those braying mules. I'd deign to tell the driver to lower the volume a little.
Naturally, he'll insult you and be crude with you. It'll cause you problems. I wanted to leave the country or die trying. I couldn't take it anymore.
After the first year, I was done, I'll go anywhere. I'll go to Libya, even. So long as I leave the country.
I applied to the immigration lottery and I won.
You can't imagine how happy I was.
My mother would tell me, "My, son what if you fail or something?"
I told her I was going to withdraw my file from college that instant.
I don't want it, I'm done. "My son, you're going to be a doctor and.." I told her to hell with being a doctor.
I'm leaving the country right now!
Doctor what? I'd rather go lick the dirt off the streets in America than stay here and be a doctor.
Yes, I was very happy. When I left it was..
I wanted to tell everyone, "I'm never coming back."
The security officer in the airport, when I showed him the travel permit.
You have to get a travel permit when you're a student so you get a certificate from the college and get a travel permit.
I show him the travel permit and I want to write on it without return. Get me out of here!
Get me out of here! Is this plane not taking off? [laughs]
Ah.
We received a question from the chat box just now.
It says that though the Christians in Egypt are thoroughly oppressed ..
We have not seen an armed Christian group, for example. Or a Christian call to arms for the sake of Christ.
Something like that. I wanted to get your take on this.
Despite facing severe persecution and who ever denies it isn't being objective. We haven't seen Christian paramilitary resistance groups.
What're your comments on the subject?
Believe when I say I don't know if this is a good thing or a bad thing.
I mean, for example, had our Christian ancestors back in the days of Amr ibn al Ass (Muslim conqueror of Egypt) and his barbarian invasion.
Had they armed themselves then at least we would have been like Lebanon, you know. Fifty fifty or something.
Things wouldn't be so broken.
But the Christian religion puts you in a bubble. You're not of this world, I mean, that's the kind of talk that we'd hear.
When I would, for example, go complain to the church custodian..
I'm getting beaten and the Muslim kids hassled me today.
He'd say, "Don't worry about it. We're not of this world. This is not our kingdom."
"Look towards heaven. The messiah was beaten and spat on, are we better than him?"
You know that subservient personality so the Christian citizen just keeps looking towards heaven.
I'm screwed here, it's okay but in the kingdom... Let it go, if you get spat on , would you say no?
A friend of ours is asking, and he's stuck on the question. What were your scores in the final exams (high school)?
One of our followers questions.
As for my next question.
After having been exposed to all these problems, do you think that something of your psyche was broken?
Or your personality was damaged.
Or something inside you needs treatment.
Do you believe this is true of yourself?
Or is it easy for a person to live through the circumstances you've lived and the situations you've encountered..
Is it easy for a human being to recognize that all that's happened to him has affected his personality and attempt to treat himself?
I hope my question was clear.
I recognized the problem immediately.
When I left Egypt, I acknowledged that I was..
There's something I neglected to tell you. I wasn't just afraid to go near Muslim girls. I was afraid to go near Muslim boys as well.
I never befriended a Muslim in Egypt.
Even the people that were friendly, never talked about religion.
I would still be worried because of them.
Like I told you yesterday, a guy that was with me in high school..
His dad's a counselor.
He had gone to a catholic school so he was used to Christians, I mean he first attended a catholic school in preparatory.
He's used to Christians, their nuances, there names and so on. He had no problem with Christians.
He'd like to sit with them or near them.
The whole year, he'd attempt to get to know me, talk to me, know where I'm from.. anything and I completely refused.
When I talked to him, the answer would be as short as the question. I'd make an effort not to get into any sort of conversation with him.
No debates, nothing.
Given that he never talked to me about religion, for example, he'd talk to me about...
He was, high school, you know the "bad boy".
He goes and smokes, drinks alcohol, he wants to sleep with girls or whatever so he'd sit and tell me these things like typical youth talking to each other.
I don't want to hear it.
I don't want to talk to him.
period.
I don't want for there to be anything between me and him.
The guy kept trying to get to know me, the entire time.
I finished the year, the year, after then the year after that.
He was a total failure. [laughs] His father wanted him to enroll in the corps so he can be counselor, like him or a body representative.
He didn't even score high enough for ethics school so his dad enrolled him in the police academy.
I met him afterwards. We had finished high school and he was in the academy, still in the first year.
He's like, "I'm in the police academy, come over here." I saw him in the street for example.
I felt I was being arrested, I mean, as soon as he'd call to me.
"How are you, George? What have you been up to? I missed you, buddy."
"Okay, great I'm doing fine." "Where did you go?" "Medical school." "I was doing yatta yatta yesterday."
He'd just talk to me and I'm thinking, "Is this going to end so I can leave?"
I felt I was being arrested. [laughs]
In college, naturally, I didn't have a single Muslim friend and there was this one guy..
In the middle of this Christian group there was a Muslim guy, I don't know, it was his desire to be with Christians.
I was afraid of him the entire time.
The entire time, I was very worried because of him.
I never spoke in his presence. I'd talk to the Christian kids after he left. "Why is that guy following us? What does he want?"
"Why is he always around like this?"
They'd tell me, "What's your problem? He's alright." I'm scared, I'm terrified of him. I don't want to talk to him.
I don't want him to know anything about me. [laughs]
Naturally when I left- That guy...
That Muslim guy was me. [laughs]
That Muslim guy was me. He played the same part I played.
Go on. Go on.
When I left, I acknowledged the problem. I knew I had a problem with Muslims.
Guys, girls, whatever the gender, I have a problem.
At first, it took some time to address the fact that I had a problem and gradually while walking the path of atheism...
That is to say, I got out of the Character of the persecuted Christian kid.
And I began to think in a humanist way.
So it's fine, he has his beliefs. I too once had religious beliefs. That's it, there isn't a problem. I mean, he isn't harmful, he won't bite.
If I say, talked to a Muslim girl, here in America, nothing will happen to me. No one will force her on me and she won't target me.
It's very normal. It was a long process for me to be able to socialize with Muslims.
For a very long time, as soon as I would, say, hear the name Mohamed, I'd get very disturbed.
[laughs] "You're a Muslim."
It took time to reconcile myself with the idea of a Muslim being normal. I mean, with being able to interact with them and being able to...
..talk to them, give them my number, let them visit me at the house. No problem. The world hasn't ended.
It took a long (internal) struggle to get out of that mindset because the negative experiences I had, left me with a very bad taste of the Muslims.
You think.. You think, George, if you were irreligious, I mean, had you left Christianity earlier... When you were still in Egypt.
Would you expect that this could possibly have had a role or.. It would've had a positive role relating to your feelings of oppression, mistreatment or fear?
I sympathize greatly with how much you were living in, essentially, terror.
And feeling that you're a persecuted individual, a person that cannot express themselves freely.
..while you were a Christian.
If you go back in time and imagine that you had left Christianity while you were in Egypt would anything have turned out to be different or no?
I believe, yes. At the very least, a part of the equation would disappear, it is that feeling of unceasing mistreatment and degradation.
For example, when they preach, in the mosques, that the Christians are infidels, the descendants of Nasara, they worship yatta yatta.
I would feel it, because I was a Christian. I would be angry.
But if I was irreligious, atheist or something then it wouldn't have made a difference to me.
At least that side would have been out of the equation. That piece of...
But the rest of it would be business as usual because I'd still carry the name, George, and I'd still have "Christian" written down on my ID card.
And still, people would jump me, believing me to be Christian.
None of this would've gone away but at least on a personal level, I would not have been so hurt by the talk that I'd hear.
I got a message that I want to relay to you so you could give me your comment on it.
Dahlia.. Dahlia al Hady says, "I love you very much, George. You're as old as my son but I don't let him watch you so that he can stay Muslim."
What would you have to say to Dahlia al Hady?
If I'm your sons age, you won't be able to stop him from watching us. That era has ended.
The age of, for example, of forbidding your son from buying a certain magazine or something. Today the internet contains everything.
If he.. If you don't... He could, possibly, be watching us but doesn't tell you so he doesn't injure or bother you.
That's all. You can't really stop him.
We also welcome all of the friends that follow us and inquire.
I'm trying to relay-I'll relay the appropriate questions to George because there are some questions...uh.
Another question from Karim. Karim says, "Dr.George, I'd like to hold your hand, though I'm not an atheist..."
"Your method with scientific thought and awareness is amazing."
If you'd like to comment, George, on any note or question, I mean, do it immediately.
I'm just trying to read them..
There is a Dr. Ramses.. or Ramsay, yes, Ramsey...
He asks for you to post an email because he'd like to correspond with you.
We can, maybe, put on Georges channel or his email at the end so that everyone on the show can...
..communicate with him.
Another question from "Egyptian", You never answered it, George. He asks how high your marks were in high school?
I scored 96% on my final exams. This question..[laughs] .. I don't understand the determination to get it answered.
There's also a question from Bakir. Baker says..
"Often, we hear that the Christian men of faith (priests) convert to Islam and leave Christianity. Is this true?"
"Do you know any member of the Christian priesthood that has converted to Islam?"
Personally, I haven't seen it.
I don't know if it's true. I can't generalize the whole world.
The world has.. a lot of things happen but I, personally, within the span of 31 years of life..
I've never seen a priest that I know of, convert to Islam.
At all, I mean.
I've seen priests with secular tendencies, changing from one denomination to another, but to convert to Islam. I haven't seen it.
Yet another question for you from Sabir, and he's.. it's indicative..
I don't want to insult Sabirs intelligence on air but perhaps, off air.
[laughs] and I ask, George, your comment Beit al Abeer.. (House of springs)
This is a natural progression of the cold drink. If I was next to the well, the same thing would have happened to me.
Even if you're irreligious, whatever, so long as your name is Colbert, George, Michael or the like then you're a Christian.
So this is..
The duplicitous way of Egypt. This is something I had always wondered about.
You find a person who's a drunk, a thief, a thug and as soon as the religion carnival rolls in front of him, tells him, "This guy insulted god." You find that he wallops you.
He's avenging, I mean so weren't you just stealing, and aren't you being charged with that?
A drunken thief that got high before walking into court.
What holiness is there for you to defend god?
Why don't you adhere to these things? It's a tribalist thing.
Blind contradictory thought.
A message from Badey, "Badey Anise, how are you, Ismael? Do you remember me?"
No, unfortunately, I don't remember you. Hopefully you'll tell me who you are.
A question from Aboud, "Do you support the Jews or the Palestinians?"
I support the bowl of fava beans.
Let's avoid useless questions like that one. [laughs]
Let's discuss, generally, the subject of persecution and what's happening to the Christians in Egypt.
If anyone has anything to contribute to this topic, perhaps, they can talk to us about it.
Can we take George's opinion on what happened today. George, you know, of course what happened today.
In the churches of Tanta and Alexandria. (suicide bombings) I was horrified by the news.
The news brought me to tears. One of my friends was present near the Alexandrian church at the time of the attack.
Today, after this incident, I called just about all my Christian friends in a Alexandria to make sure they were okay?
What're your thoughts, George, on these two attacks that occurred in Egypt in the middle of the Christian holiday.
It is an atrocity. I extend my condolences for the victims and to the families of the victims.
On this subject, we've grown accustomed to it. There is no problem. When I was a child, I saw these things happening to churches.
In Christian stores.. There have been many attacks.
This isn't a new thing.
However, it has become very painful, and too frequent. In the past we would hear of an incident or two a year.
There were minor instances, naturally, but these were the big incidents. A small thing here and there.
You don't hear of it and if you do, there aren't a lot of victims but It's increased tremendously.
The problem is that the government doesn't want to address the root of the problem. They want to seize the pyramid at its top.
The same as the days of Mubarak.
As soon as it happens, the "moderate Muslims" come out. "This isn't Islam. This isn't Mohamedian"
"They interpreted Islam wrong. They're radicalized. They're a minority... Yatta yatta."
The problem is that this "minority" has very many numbers.
They have overtaken the majority.
There must be a solution and the officials must acknowledge that the problem is not the kids (minor terrorist groups) they're pursuing in Sinai.
Nor are they the kids they're pursuing in, I don't know where, nor are they Ansar Beit al Maqdis.
The problem is that they're (the government) raising children into terrorism from a young age.
This video we just made, this entire episode..
It shows you how a terrorist is raised when he's young. On his first day of school..
Even before school he receives violent hateful instruction against minorities.
The child grows, having absorbed the hatred and it ends there.
This is if he enrolls in a public school, it would be the end of you ,if he enrolls in an Adzharia school. (Islamic school)
Those Adzharia  schools that offer preparatory and secondary.. Those are an entirely separate disaster.
The student becomes an extremist at 5th preparatory. It's over. He'll stop shaving.
It's done, he's a terrorist now.
How can you imagine that after this upbringing, having fed the child at that age... Afterwards you want to be schizophrenic and tell him, "Nah, don't kill the Christians."
How? All of your doctrines tell you that they're infidels,  children of evil and the judgment of Allah is upon them that they convert to Islam, pay jyzia or get killed.
It's a problem of administration.
The entire Egyptian people..[laughs] They all have a little ISIS in them. Like this.
And still the orthodox citizen also has a little ISIS in him.
But he's an orthodox Christian ISIS. Non violent oppression.
