>>> HELLO. I'M TONY GUIDA.
THIS IS "MY NEW 
YORK."
GAY TALESE IS HERE
TO TALK ABOUT ONE 
OF THE MOST FAMOUS
PIECES OF MAGAZINE
JOURNALISM EVER WRITTEN.
HIS PROFILE OF 
FRANK SINATRA 
CALLED "FRANK
SINATRA HAS A COLD."
"ESQUIRE"
PUBLISHED IT IN 1966.
THE PIECE HAS BEEN
STUDIED AND 
CELEBRATED EVER 
SINCE.
NOW IN THE 
CENTENNIAL OF 
SINATRA'S BIRTH, 
IT HAS BEEN 
REPUBLISHED AS A 
HANDSOME AND 
EXPENSIVE COFFEE 
TABLE BOOK.
GAY, ARE YOU 
SURPRISED THAT 50 
YEARS ON WE ARE 
TALKING ABOUT AND 
CELEBRATING A 
MAGAZINE PIECE YOU
REALLY DIDN'T EVEN
WANT TO WRITE?
>> IT WAS AN 
ASSIGNMENT THAT I 
HAD TO DELIVER
BECAUSE THE EDITOR WANTED IT.
AND THE REASON I
DIDN'T WANT TO DO IT,
YOU MUST UNDERSTAND IT,
 I'M 83 NOW.
BUT WHEN THIS 
PIECE WAS ASSIGNED
TO ME IN 1965, 
THERE HAD BEEN -- 
ALL MY LIFE THERE
HAD BEEN PIECES ON SINATRA.
I GREW UP AS AN 
ITALIAN-AMERICAN 
BOY IN THE SOUTH 
OF NEW JERSEY, A 
TOWN NEAR ATLANTIC
CITY CALLED OCEAN CITY.
I WAS BORN IN 1932.
IN THE '40s HE WAS
ON THE RADIO.
I GREW UP WITH 
SINATRA.
I GREW UP KNOWING 
A LOT FROM WHAT I 
HEARD, FROM WHAT I
READ, NEWSPAPERS, 
MAGAZINES, BOOKS
EVEN AT THAT STAGE.
SO WHEN I AT AGE 
33 I THINK IT 
WAS -- I JUST LEFT
"THE NEW YORK 
TIMES" WHERE I HAD
WORKED FOR TEN 
YEARS AS A GENERAL
ASSIGNMENT 
REPORTER, A SPORTS
REPORTER AS WELL EARLIER.
I DIDN'T THINK 
THAT I COULD FIND 
IN SINATRA 
ANYTHING THAT 
HADN'T ALREADY 
BEEN PUBLISHED.
BECAUSE WHEN YOU 
ARE A SUPER 
CELEBRITY, WHEN 
YOU ARE MICK 
JAGGER OR LADY 
GAGA OR MADONNA OR
SOMEONE WHO HAS 
HAD A LONG HISTORY
IN PUBLIC LIFE AND
HAVE BEEN 
INTERVIEWED INCESSANTLY,
CONSTANTLY,
THEY DEVELOP THESE
SUPER CELEBRITIES 
DEVELOP I DO 
SUSPECT A KIND OF 
LANGUAGE THAT IS 
FASHIONED TO ANY 
ANTICIPATED 
QUESTION.
SO YOU ARE GETTING
A KIND OF 
ELONGATED SOUND 
BITE AT MOST, 
GETTING NOTHING OF
CANDOR OR HONESTY 
HARDLY AT ALL.
>> I'VE HEARD YOU 
SAY THAT WHAT 
INTERESTS YOU THE MOST IS
CANDOR, NOT QUOTES.
>> AND NOT INTERVIEWS SO MUCH.
WELL, IT'S A 
PLEASURE TO BE 
INTERVIEWED BY YOU
AND DO THIS SHOW.
I MYSELF DO NOT LIKE DIRECT
DIALOGUE, Q AND A.
I DO NOT LIKE THAT.
WHAT I DO LIKE IF 
I CAN GET AWAY 
WITH IT IS TO HANG
OUT WITH ME.
>> THE ART OF 
HANGING OUT?
>> YEAH. AND I'VE
DONE MANY OF MY PIECES THAT
ARE REMEMBERED IN 
SOME OF THEM IN 
ANTHOLOGIES THAT 
COLLEGE STUDENTS 
HAVE ACCESS TO 
WHERE I AM MOVING 
THROUGH THE LIFE 
OF PEOPLE AT A 
CERTAIN TIME, 
SOMETIMES A CRISIS
MOMENT OR AN 
ORDINARY MOMENT OF
A STRETCH OF DAY, 
TWO, THREE.
AND I WATCH HOW 
THEY INTERACT WITH
PEOPLE THAT ARE 
CONNECTED TO THEM.
MAYBE TO THEIR 
WORK OR PEOPLE 
THAT DON'T KNOW
ABOUT THEM BUT ARE RESPONDING
TO THEM BECAUSE THEY ARE
WELL-KNOWN.
OR MAYBE THEY ARE 
NOTORIOUS.
WHATEVER IT IS. IT IS
REALLY INSPIRING.
I HAVE NOT BEEN 
INSPIRED BY 
JOURNALISTS,
THOUGH I AM A JOURNALIST.
BUT WHAT INSPIRED
ME WAS SHORT STORIES.
I GREW UP AS A 
TAILOR'S SON.
MY WIFE -- MY
MOTHER RAN A DRESS SHOP.
MY WIFE IS SAY WORKING WOMAN,
BOOK PUBLISHER.
I'VE ALWAYS HAD WORKERS IN MY
FAMILY.
MY WIFE AND MY 
PARENTS ALL THE TIME.
NOT MUCH HOME
LIFE. NOT MUCH COOKING.
IT WAS ALWAYS 
GOING TO 
RESTAURANT AFTER
THE STORE WAS CLOSED.
IT WAS ATLANTIC 
CITY OR SOMEWHERE 
IN ATLANTIC CITY.
AND I DIDN'T HAVE MUCH OF A
LITERARY BACKGROUND.
BUT I DID READ 
MAGAZINES, 
MAGAZINES THAT ARE
BANKRUPT AND GONE 
AND FORGOTTEN NOW 
LIKE "THE POST" OR
LATER I STARTED
READING "THE NEW YORKER."
THAT'S REALLY WHERE I
DISCOVERED SHORT STORIES.
PAPERBACK 
ANTHOLOGIES OR 
MAGAZINES SUCH AS 
"THE NEW YORKER."
WRITERS THAT MIGHT
NOT BE SO FAMOUS. JOHN O'HARA.
I DON'T THINK PEOPLE KNOW WHO
HE IS. ERWIN SHAW.
GIRLS IN THEIR 
SUMMER DRESSES, 
THE 80 YARD RUN, 
CARSON McCULLERS.
THESE ARE THE 
PEOPLE WHO WROTE 
SHORT STORIES 
WHICH WERE WORKS 
OF THE 
IMAGINATION, 
INCLUDING F. SCOTT
FITZGERALD, HEMINGWAY.
THEY'RE ALL WORKS 
OF THE 
IMAGINATION, BASED
PERHAPS ON REAL 
LIFE JUST LIKE 
ARTHUR MILLER 
WRITES A PLAY CALLED "DEATH OF A
SALESMAN."
IT'S AN IMAGINED 
CHARACTER.
MIGHT HAVE BEEN
HIS UNCLE OR FATHER.
WE DON'T KNOW.
I AM A JOURNALIST.
I'M NOT A MAN OF 
THE IMAGINATION.
I DON'T WANT TO 
MAKE ANYTHING UP.
BUT I DO WANT TO 
FASHION MY LIFE AS
A STORYTELLER.
I WANT TO TELL REAL STORIES,
REAL NAMES, VERIFIABLE FACTS.
SO I TOOK THE 
STORY FORM, 
BECAUSE I ADORED
THAT KIND OF WRITING.
AND INSERTED IT
INTO THE MAGAZINE FORM.
BECAUSE AFTER ALL,
SHORT STORY CAN BE
1,500 WORDS OR 
15,000 WORDS.
AN ARTICLE SUCH AS
THE FRANK SINATRA 
PIECE YOU HAVE IS 
14,000 WORDS.
YOU CAN DO IF YOU 
HAVE TIME -- AND 
IF YOU CAN HANG 
OUT WITH PEOPLE --
>> THAT'S WHAT 
THIS IS.
YOU HUNG OUT FOR 
SIX WEEKS -- 
>> I HUNG OUT NOT
BECAUSE -- BECAUSE --
>> HE WOULDN'T TALK TO YOU.
>> HE WOULDN'T. BUT
YOU STARTED TO SAY I DIDN'T WANT
DO IT ANYWAY.
BUT I WAS ON A ONE
YEAR CONTRACT WITH "ESQUIRE."
I HAD NINE, TEN
YEARS WITH
"THE NEW YORK TIMES."
I WANTED TO WRITE 
AT GREATER LENGTH 
AND TAKE MORE
TIME. "ESQUIRE" IS A MONTHLY.
I WAS ALWAYS BEING
CUT TO SIZE AND SPACE.
I NEVER HAD ENOUGH
TIME. 
>> NEVER GET
14,000 WORDS IN THE TIMES.
>> NOT THERE YOU WOULDN'T.
BUT I HAD TO DO 
SIX PIECES.
I SAID IF I TAKE
THREE PIECES, YOU TAKE --
THE EDITOR TAKES THREE.
I DID THE FIRST PIECE I
WANTED WAS OF A
CRAZY GUY I KNEW AT THE TIME.
HE WAS AN OBITUARY
WRITER AT THE TIME.
IT WAS MY IDEA.
I WAS FASCINATED 
BY HIM.
HE IS SOMETHING
LIKE THE MELVILLE CHARACTER.
SOME CRAZY LITTLE 
CLERK.
>> YOU CALLED HIM 
MR. BAD NEWS.
>> THIS IS MR. BAD
NEWS.
BIZARRE, ECCENTRIC
GUY, WAITED FOR 
PEOPLE TO DIE TO 
WRITE ABOUT THEM.
THAT'S ONE PIECE.
I WANT TO WRITE 
ABOUT THIS GREAT 
MANAGING EDITOR WE
HAVE OVER THERE AT
"THE TIMES" 
MARRIED TO 
MARGARET TRUMAN'S
DAUGHTER NAMED CLIFTON DANIEL.
HAROLD HAYES WAS 
THE EDITOR.
THEY HAD GREAT 
COVERS.
THIS IS THE '60s.
HAYES WAS THE 
PREMIERE EDITOR.
"ESQUIRE" WAS AT 
THE HEIGHT THEN.
MY LITTLE NEW 
YORKER WAS NOT AT 
ITS BEST IN THE 
'60s.
HAYES, HAROLD
SAID, NO, WE CAN DO SINATRA.
EVERYBODY HAS DONE
HIM.
"LIFE" HAD A PIECE
TWO MONTHS BEFORE.
NO, NO, IT'S EASY.
WE HAVE A COVER.
YOU DON'T HAVE A
COVER. THIS IS A COVER FOR YOU.
THEY WILL PRESS
AGENT, JIM MAHONEY.
STAY AT THE
BEVERLY WILSHIRE HOTEL.
SINATRA WILL SEE 
YOU MONDAY.
FLY OUT SATURDAY 
OR SUNDAY.
AFTER YOU FINISH 
THAT, COME BACK 
AND YOU DO CLIFTON
DANIEL. I SAID, OKAY.
I, OF COURSE, FLEW
OUT.
FULLY EXPECTED TO
BE EASY SETUP, COVER STORY.
THE PRESS AGENT IS
GOING TO BE 
LEADING ME TO THE 
GREAT MAN HIMSELF.
AND I TELL YOU, 
I'M NOT GOING TO 
SOUND -- WITHOUT
CERTAIN EXPECTATION.
I HAD NEVER SEEN 
SINATRA.
I HAD GROWN UP 
WITH SINATRA.
I ALMOST MEMORIZED
SOME OF THE GREAT 
SONGS WORD FOR
WORD. NEVER SEEN HIM.
SO I WAS LOOKING 
FORWARD TO THAT.
BUT I DIDN'T SEE 
HIM, BECAUSE 
MONDAY WHEN I 
CALLED THE PRESS 
AGENT, THIS WHOLE 
CHANGE OF STORY.
WHAT HAPPENED WAS 
SINATRA HAS A COLD
SAID THE PRESS 
AGENT.
OKAY, A COUPLE 
DAYS LATER HE WILL
GET OVER THE COLD.
THE PRESS AGENT SAID --
THIS IS OVER THE PHONE.
FRANK HAS SECOND
THOUGHTS ABOUT THIS. WHY?
WELL, THIS WALTER 
CRONKITE IS 
DELVING INTO 
ORGANIZED CRIME.
I'M NOT DOING 
THAT.
I'M DOING FRANK
SINATRA, A MAN AND HIS MUSIC.
THAT'S WHO I'M -- 
I'M GOING TO TALK 
ABOUT HIS MUSIC
AND WHAT HIS LIFE IS LIKE.
HANG AROUND WITH 
HIM A LITTLE BIT, 
SO I THOUGHT.
JIM SAID, THE 
LAWYER IS HERE 
BELIEVES THAT WE
WANT TO SEE THE PIECE.
COME ON, YOU CAN'T
DO -- I COULDN'T 
DO IT IN "THE NEW 
YORK TIMES," YOU 
CAN'T DO THAT IN "ESQUIRE."
MAYBE YOU SHOULD
GO BACK TO NEW YORK.
NOT A BAD IDEA.
>> I'M READY TO 
GO.
>> LISTEN, I HAVE
TO CALL THE EDITOR ABOUT THIS.
YOU ARE SAYING I
HAVE TO SUBMIT THIS?
WE WOULD LIKE IT 
FOR ACCURACY.
I WILL BE 
ACCURATE.
WE WANT TO BE SURE
YOU DON'T PUT IN 
THINGS WE DON'T
WANT YOU TO PUT IN.
I SAID, I WILL 
CALL THE EDITOR TO
TELL HIM WHAT YOU 
SAID.
I CALL THE EDITOR.
HAROLD -- OF
COURSE WE CAN'T DO THIS.
>> FINAL APPROVAL?
>> YEAH, YOU CAN'T
DO IT.
WHAT DO YOU WANT 
DO?
I SAID, I CAN COME
HOME.
IF YOU WANT, I
WILL GO TO A CHEAPER HOTEL.
I WILL -- I CAN 
TALK TO OTHER 
PEOPLE THAT KNOW 
SINATRA BECAUSE 
HE'S NOT GOING TO 
TALK TO ME ANYWAY.
I WILL -- LET'S 
SEE WHAT HAPPENS.
I SPENT A WEEK -- 
YOU DON'T HAVE TO 
MOVE TO A LESS 
EXPENSIVE HOTEL.
THEY WOULDN'T SAY 
THIS TODAY.
BUT HERE IN 1966, 
STAY AT THE FOUR, 
FIVE-STAR BEVERLY 
WILSHIRE.
KEEP THE RENTED 
CAR.
I STARTED TAKING 
PEOPLE -- PEOPLE 
ON THE MARGIN OF A
SUPER STAR'S LIFE,
SUCH AS MUSICIANS 
THAT MAYBE PLAYED 
IN ORCHESTRAS WHERE SINATRA WAS
A SOLO SINGER.
LIKE THE TOMMY DORSEY BAND,
THIS IS POST THE WAR.
MAYBE ACTRESSES IN
MOVIES.
SINATRA MADE A LOT
OF MOVIES.
DANCERS OR HIS 
TAILOR.
NOT FAR FROM THE 
HOTEL WAS A TAILOR
WHO MADE SUITS FOR
SINATRA.
HE SAID, WE MAKE 
ON AVERAGE -- 
WE'RE ALWAYS 
MAKING TWO TUXEDOS
FOR FRANK, 
AUTOMATICALLY. 
>> ALWAYS?
>> ALWAYS MAKING
TWO. HE HAS 100.
BUT YOU HAVE TO 
HAVE AN EXTRA 
TUXEDO ON THE 
ROAD.
I MET A WOMAN WHO
SAID, HE HEARS TOUPEES.
I SAID, YES.
SHE SAID I CARRY 60 TOUPEES
AROUND IN A SATCHEL.
>> SHE CARRIED?
>> 60 TOUPEES OF 
FRANK SINATRA IN A
SATCHEL ON THE 
ROAD WITH HIM.
>> THIS IS HER 
JOB?
>> SHE TOLD ME IN 
THOSE DAY -- I'M 
MAKING $500 A 
WEEK.
IT DOESN'T SOUND 
LIKE MUCH.
IN THOSE DAYS IT 
WAS A GOOD JOB FOR
DOING THE 
CARRYING. 
>> HOW DID YOU 
MEET HER?
>> THROUGH ONE OF 
THE PERSONS I KNEW
IN BEVERLY HILLS.
IT WAS A 
RESTAURANT OWNER.
THE RESTAURANT WAS
THE DAISY.
>> THE FIRST SCENE
OF THE STORY IS IN THE DAISY.
>> THAT GUY, JACK
HANSON, WAS THE OWNER.
HE WAS VERY
FRIENDLY. HIS WIFE WAS FRIENDLY.
THIS GUY JACK 
SAID, YOU KNOW, 
FRANK HAS -- WEARS
TOUPEES. I HEARD THAT.
IN FACT HE SAID 
THERE'S A WOMAN 
THAT DOES NOTHING 
BUT CARRY HIS 
TOUPEES AROUND. REALLY?
AND I SAID, HOW 
WOULD I REACH HER?
YOU KNOW, I THINK 
I KNOW SOMEBODY 
WHO KNOWS HER.
>> HAD -- THIS IS 
THE HANGING OUT I 
DON'T WANT TO SAY
YOU ARE FAMOUS FOR.
BUT THE FIRST BOOK
YOU WROTE WAS -- 
IT WAS OBSERVING 
FROM THE MARGINS, 
OBSERVING STUFF
THAT'S NOT NOTICED BY OTHERS.
HERE YOU ARE IN 
LOS ANGELES 
WORKING FROM THE 
MARGINS AND 
WINDING UP WITH A
MARVELLOUS PROFILE OF A STAR.
>> BUT IT'S NOT SO
FAR FROM THE WAY I
WAS BORN AND 
REARED.
I WAS BORN IN THE 
MARGINS.
WHICH IS TO SAY, 
WHEN YOU ARE OF AN
IMMIGRANT
BACKGROUND --
AND I'M OLD ENOUGH TO
KNOW THAT IN THE
1940s -- I WAS 
BORN IN '32.
TEN YEARS AFTER, 
I'M TEN YEARS OLD,
THE WAR IS ON. AND
I'M A BOY IN A
PROTESTANT 
NEIGHBORHOOD.
WE ARE RUNNING A 
STORE ON THE MAIN 
STREET OF A 
PROTESTANT TOWN.
IT'S WORLD WAR II.
MY FATHER'S 
BROTHERS ARE IN 
THE ITALIAN ARMY.
SO I'M NOW AT TEN 
YEARS FEEL LIKE 
IT'S MY LAND. IT ISN'T MY LAND.
I'M LIKE A MUSLIM 
TODAY, LIKE SOME 
ARAB KID MUST FEEL
IN BROOKLYN SOMEWHERE.
WHEN YOU ARE THE 
SON OF A STORE 
KEEPER OR A 
DAUGHTER OF A 
STORE KEEPER, WHEN
YOU GROW UP IN A 
STORE, YOU LEARN A
LOT OF THINGS THAT
ARE GREAT FOR JOURNALISM.
ONE, BE CAREFUL
AND KIND TO YOUR CUSTOMER.
BE GOOD TO YOUR 
SOURCES.
TREAT PEOPLE WITH 
RESPECT.
AFTER ALL, THEY 
ARE CUSTOMERS.
THEY KEEP US 
ALIVE.
THEY PAY FOR WHAT 
WE NEED.
AND THEY SUPPORT 
US.
SECONDLY, I 
LEARNED FROM THE 
CUSTOMERS, ALL 
KINDS OF PEOPLE 
WANDERING IN AND 
OUT, SOMETHING 
ABOUT THE MARGINAL
CHARACTERS OF THE TOWN.
MEANING, MY MOTHER
RAN A DRESS SHOP I TOLD YOU.
WHO WERE THE PEOPLE WHO
WERE CUSTOMERS? WOMEN.
WHO WERE THE 
WOMEN?
OVERWEIGHT, MIDDLE
AGED WOMEN WHO HAD
DEEP POCKETS.
THE WIVES OF THE 
MAYOR, THE 
CADILLAC DEALER, 
THE WIVES OF THE 
SUPERINTENDENT OF 
SCHOOLS.
THE WOMEN WHO HAD 
WHITE GLOVES IN 
THE WINTER AND 
SUMMER, WHO DIDN'T
GO TO THE BEACH 
BECAUSE THEY WERE 
MIDDLE AGED AND 
OVERWEIGHT BUT 
THEY WERE THE 
MONEY PEOPLE.
THIS IS THE SOCIAL
STRENGTH OF THE TOWN.
THE GOSSIPS.
THEY WOULD GOSSIP 
IN MOTHER'S SHOP.
I'M HEARING STORIES. THEY
WEREN'T SO RACY.
IT WASN'T EXACTLY
AN EROTIC AFTERNOON.
BUT THEY WERE 
TELLING YOU LITTLE
THINGS ABOUT THE 
WAR, THE NYLONS 
WERE HARD TO GET, 
GAS RATIONING WAS 
ON, THEIR SON WAS 
IN ITALY, THEIR 
WIFE RAN OFF WITH 
A SERVICEMAN.
ALL THIS THAT GOES
ON IN THE TIME OF WAR.
I'M AN 
EAVESDROPPING KID 
BEHIND THE COUNTER
LISTENING AND 
WATCHING THE 
PASSAGE OF TIME 
AND THE TOWN ROTATING IN AND OUT
OF A SHOP.
AND HOW THEY LOOK,
WHAT THEY DRESS.
I MY FATHER WOULD 
BE MEASURING MEN 
FOR SUITS ON HIS 
KNEES WITH A 
LITTLE MARKER, A 
CHALK MARKER.
THEY WOULD TALK IN
THE FITTING ROOM, 
MEN WHO WERE THE 
EDITOR OF THE 
NEWSPAPER, THE 
MAYOR OF THE TOWN.
SO I'M GETTING 
FROM THE VOICES, 
EAVESDROPPING, 
VOYEURISM, I'M 
HEARING AND MAKING
MY IMPRESSIONS ARE
FORMED BY THE
CHARACTERS LIKE A PARADE.
SO JOURNALISM -- I
WAS AS A KID 
COMFORTABLE WITH 
STRANGERS, VERY 
MUCH CURIOUS 
ABOUT -- BECAUSE I
WAS AN OUTSIDER.
WHEN YOU ARE AN 
OUTSIDER, YOU ARE 
NOT SO BLASE ABOUT
ANYTHING.
YOU ARE WONDERING
HOW AM I DIFFERENT FROM THEM?
WHAT ARE THEY 
LIKE?
I DON'T WANT TO 
GET AWAY FROM THE 
SUBJECT OF OUR 
INTERVIEW.
MY BACKGROUND, 
EVEN THOUGH I 
DIDN'T GO TO 
JOURNALISM SCHOOL,
I WAS PREPARED FOR
THE WORLD --
LIFE OF JOURNALISM BECAUSE I
WAS INBRED WITH CURIOSITY.
I WAS AN OUTSIDER.
GREAT JOURNALISTS
SHOULD NOT BE PART OF POWER.
WE DON'T WANT TO 
GET ON THE SUBJECT
OF JOURNALISM.
TODAY THE PROBLEM 
IS JOURNALISTS ARE
SO WELL EDUCATED.
THEY SWIM IN THE 
SAME POOLS, THEY 
GO TO THE SAME 
PREP SCHOOL, THE 
WIVES HAVE THE
SAME COCKTAIL PARTIES.
THAT'S WHY WE MISS
WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION.
THAT'S WHY WE GOT 
INTO THE IRAQ WAR.
THAT'S ANOTHER 
PROGRAM WITH YOU.
>> LET'S COME BACK
AND DO THAT.
>> THIS IS A STORY
OF AN IMMIGRANT 
ITALIAN, LIKE THE 
JEWS AND IRISH AND
BLACKS THAT I GREW
UP WITH, WE WERE 
THE MINORITY AND
REALLY WERE MINORITY.
TODAY IN THIS TIME
OF SO-CALLED 
DEMOCRACY AND 
POLITICAL 
CORRECTNESS,
NOBODY IS SUPPOSED TO BE.
EVERYBODY IS 
SUPPOSED TO BE THE
SAME AND LOVED. IT'S NOT TRUE.
STILL, WE HAVE 
THIS PRESUMPTION.
IN THOSE DAYS, 
THERE WAS NO 
FOOLING AROUND.
YOU REALLY WERE
CALLED JEW AND WHOP.
THIS WAS NOT 
UNCOMMON.
NO ONE GOT A WRAP
ON THE KNUCKLES FOR DOING IT.
IT WAS RAMPANT AND
COMMON.
I DON'T WANT GO 
TOO FAR ON THIS.
I GREW UP 
SENSITIVE.
SO WHEN YOU HAVE 
THE SENSITIVITY 
AND YOU KNOW OTHER
PEOPLE HAVE 
SIMILAR SITUATIONS
AND YOU ARE 
WRITING AND 
REPORTING UPON 
THEM, YOU ARE A 
LITTLE BIT MORE 
SENSITIVE TO THEIR
SITUATION.
THAT'S ALL I'M 
TRYING TO SAY.
BACK TO SINATRA.
THIS IS A LONG WAY
FROM SINATRA.
EVEN SINATRA WAS
AN IMMIGRANT LIKE ME.
YOU KNOW WHAT I 
MEAN?
I COULD IDENTIFY.
HE WAS OLDER THAN ME.
BUT HIS FATHER WAS
ITALIAN.
WORKED AS A 
FIREMAN.
HIS MOTHER GOT THE
JOB FOR THE HUSBAND.
SINATRA'S MOTHER 
WAS A TOUGH WOMAN.
>> SHE WAS -- 
>> SINATRA WAS AN 
ONLY CHILD.
FRANK SINATRA WAS
A LITTLE SPOILED KID.
BUT HE ALSO HAD 
SOME FEELINGS OF 
BEING MINORITY.
AND I KNOW IN HIS 
LIFE ANYBODY 
CALLED SINATRA 
DAGO, HE WASN'T 
ALL THAT SECURE.
JUMPING AHEAD, 
WHEN JOHN KENNEDY 
WAS PRESIDENT AND 
ROBERT KENNEDY WAS
THE ATTORNEY 
GENERAL, AND THEY 
BROUGHT UP HIS 
LITTLE MAFIA STUFF
BECAUSE THEY 
DIDN'T WANT THE 
PRESIDENT OF THE 
UNITED STATES 
SPENDING TIME IN 
FRANK SINATRA'S 
HOUSE AFTER THE 
FIRST ELECTION OF 
JOHN KENNEDY, 
SINATRA WAS 
AMAZINGLY ANGRY 
ABOUT THIS.
NOT SO AMAZING. HE WAS FURIOUS.
THEY WERE PUTTING
SINATRA BACK INTO THE MAFIA.
THAT'S THE VERY 
THING THAT 
ITALIANS LIKE ME 
GREW UP HATING, 
BECAUSE THE PEOPLE
IN THE NEWSPAPER 
WHEN I WAS GROWING
UP -- MY FATHER 
WAS READING THE 
WAR NEWS.
THE MAFIA, MAFIA, 
MAFIA, AL CAPONE 
OR LOU CHASY AND 
ALL THAT.
ALL THE ITALIAN
NEWS IN THE '40s WAS BAD.
EXCEPT FOR ONE 
THING.
ONE THING, THIS 
SINGER.
THE SINGER FROM 
HOBOKEN, SENSITIVE
AS HE WAS, MOVED 
UP FROM BEING AN 
ETHNIC IDOL, WHICH
HE WAS TO PEOPLE 
LIKE ME, TO BEING 
A MAN OF THE 
MAINSTREAM, FROM
COAST TO COAST CELEBRATED.
FIRST FOR SINGING 
THEN FOR ACTING AS
WELL AS SINGING 
AND HIS DANCING IN
MOVIES, GETTING 
THE GIRL, NOT 
PLAYING MAFIA 
PEOPLE, PLAYING 
COPS AND SOLDIERS,
LIKE "FROM HERE TO ETERNITY."
BUT AT THE SAME 
TIME, WHEN I GOT 
THERE THAT DAY -- 
NOW WE'RE GETTING 
TO WHERE WE ARE
SUPPOSED TO BE HERE.
CRONKITE SAYS, THE
PRESS AGENT, WE 
THINK CRONKITE IS 
GOING IN TO 
ALLEGED CRIMINAL 
ASSOCIATION WITH 
SINATRA AND THE 
MAFIA PEOPLE.
THIS IS -- AND I ALSO COULD
IDENTIFY WITH THAT.
SO AT FIRST I THOUGHT, WELL, I
CAN'T DO IT.
I CAN'T SHARE THE 
PIECE.
I KNOW HOW HE 
FEELS.
I STARTED SEEING 
THESE PEOPLE.
I KNOW THAT WE 
FORGOT ABOUT THIS 
QUESTION WE ASKED 
LIKE AN HOUR AGO.
BUT I STARTED 
SEEING MARGINAL 
PEOPLE WHO ARE MY 
PEOPLE.
THE TAILOR DOWN 
THE STREET.
THIS COULD HAVE 
BEEN MY FATHER.
I SAW THE SHOP.
IT REMINDED ME OF 
MY FATHER.
HE WAS BETTER THAN
MY FATHER'S 
BECAUSE THEY WERE RICHER
CLIENTS HE HAD, OF COURSE.
BUT HE TOLD ME 
THINGS.
THE WOMAN WITH THE
HAIR.
I NEVER MET A WOMAN WHO
CARRIED TOUPEES AROUND.
I CERTAINLY MET 
PEOPLE WHO HAD 
SORT OF ODD JOBS 
LIKE THE PEOPLE IN
MY FATHER'S TAILOR
SHOP WHO WOULD 
PRESS THE SUITS 
BACK THERE.
THE MINORITY 
WORKERS, BLACKS 
WERE ALWAYS THE 
PRESSERS.
I JUST GOT -- I 
WAS COMFORTABLE.
SO I WAS 
COMFORTABLE WITH 
SINATRA'S PEOPLE, 
THE MARGINAL 
PEOPLE, THE 
TRUMPET PLAYERS, 
THE GIRLFRIENDS, 
THE FORMER -- GUY 
THAT RENTED CARS
FOR SINATRA'S TROOP.
I INTERVIEWED 
THEM.
I'M WRITING AND WRITING AND
WRITING ABOUT THEM.
THEN ABOUT A COUPLE WEEKS LATER,
I'M DOING --
I'M GETTING A KIND
OF -- IT'S LIKE A MOSAIC.
IT'S LIKE A SHAPE 
THAT'S FORMED BY 
MANY DIFFERENT 
IMPRESSIONS AND 
SHADOWS AND
POSITIONS OF A SUPER STAR.
FRANK SINATRA, 
THIS ICONIC 
CHARACTER RISING
INTO THE WONDERMENT.
ALL THESE PEOPLE 
ARE KIND OF LITTLE
SPIRIT CARRIER,
PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT HIM.
FRANK THIS, FRANK 
THAT, FRANK THIS.
I'M WRITING IT 
DOWN.
IT'S TAKING ON 
THIS SHAPE.
AFTER I WAS DOING 
IT FOR A COUPLE 
WEEKS THE PRESS 
AGENT CALLS.
YOU ARE STILL IN
THE BEVERLY WILSHIRE?
I UNDERSTAND YOU 
ARE TALKING TO 
FRIENDS OF FRANK.
WHAT ARE YOU 
DOING?
I'M TRYING TO 
WORK.
HOW IS FRANK'S 
COLD?
WELL, A LITTLE 
BETTER.
HOW LONG ARE YOU
GOING TO STAY HERE?
I DON'T KNOW.
HE SAID, YOU STILL
CAN'T TALK TO 
FRANK BECAUSE A 
GUY -- 
>> MICKEY. 
>> HE WAS THE GUY.
YOU CAN'T DO IT. I
WILL TELL YOU WHAT I WILL DO,
THIS IS JIM 
MAHONEY.
TOMORROW WE'RE 
GOING TO BURBANK 
TO THE WARNER 
BROTHERS STUDIO.
HE WILL TRY TO
BEGIN THIS NBC SPECIAL.
I SAID, FRANK
SINATRA, MAN IS MUSIC.
THEY HAD DONE A 
SPECIAL WITH 
BARBARA STREISAND.
SO THE PRESS AGENT
COMES.
HE INTRODUCED ME.
HE HAD A NICE BIG 
BROWN MERCEDES 
STATION WAGON 
OUTSIDE THE HOTEL.
THE DOORMAN SEES 
ME GET INTO THIS.
I'M NOW BEING 
DRIVEN TO BURBANK 
AND THE PASSENGER 
SIDE IN THE 
MERCEDES DRIVEN BY
JAMES MAHONEY, 
PRESS AGENT TO 
FRANK SINATRA.
HE NEVER LETS ME 
OUT OF HIS SIGHT.
BUT I WAS ABLE TO SEE THE
ORCHESTRA WARMING UP.
I SAW MANY 
SALESMEN LINED UP.
PRETTY GIRLS WERE
THERE. ABOUT 200 PEOPLE.
THERE WAS SINATRA HAD -- I
DIDN'T REALIZE IT AT FIRST.
THERE WAS A GUY 
THAT LOOKED LINE 
SINATRA ON STAGE 
WHILE THEY WERE 
DOING THE 
LIGHTING.
>> A DOUBLE?
>> A DOUBLE.
I SAID, WHO IS 
THAT GUY?
THAT'S NOT FRANK,
IS IT? NO THAT'S HIS DOUBLE.
WHAT'S HIS NAME? JOHNNY DELGATO.
HE TRIED TO BE --
GET A JOB IN
"FROM HERE TO ETERNITY."
THE JOB THAT 
SINATRA GOT.
PRIVATE WHATEVER 
IT IS CALLED.
>> HE WON THE 
ACADEMY AWARD.
>> HE WANTED THAT 
PART.
WE WILL GIVE YOU -- YOU CAN BE
THE DOUBLE.
THAT'S HOW THIS
GUY STARTED HIS CAREER.
SO HIS WHOLE LIFE,
LIKE THE WOMAN 
CARRYING THE 
TOUPEES, IS KIND 
OF LIKE BEING IN 
THE REALM OF THE 
SINATRA CASTLE.
>> I GET THE SENSE,
GAY, THAT YOU FEEL THIS IS A
BETTER PROFILE 
THAN IT WOULD HAVE
BEEN HAD SINATRA 
TALKED TO YOU.
>> IT WOULD HAVE 
BEEN.
IT WOULD HAVE BEEN
EVEN IF HE WOULD TALK TO ME.
>> YOU WROTE A
BOOK CALLED
"THY NEIGHBOR'S WIFE"
ABOUT SEXUAL
PRACTICE IN THE 
UNITED STATES AND 
PARTICIPATED 
ROUNDLY IN THEM 
AND PUT A LOT OF 
PRESSURE ON YOUR 
CAREER AND YOUR 
MARRIAGE.
NOW YOU ARE 
WRITING A BOOK 
ABOUT YOUR 
MARRIAGE.
HOW MUCH TREPIDATION IN WRITING
THAT?
>> WELL, PROBABLY
NOT AS MUCH AS YOU THINK.
QUICKLY, I'VE BEEN
MARRIED 57 YEARS.
DURING THAT 
MARRIAGE, WE'VE 
GONE THROUGH A LOT
OF STRESS, OF COURSE.
BUT SURVIVED IT.
YOU BECOME 
STRONGER THE 
LONGER YOU LAST IN
A MARRIAGE.
I ALWAYS FELT THAT
I'M MARRIED BUT 
I'M ALSO AN 
OBSERVER.
THAT SOUNDS
RIDICULOUS. MAYBE A VOYEUR.
I THINK
JOURNALISTS ARE VOYEURS.
MY FIRST LINE IS 
JOURNALISTS ARE 
VOYEURS THAT SEE 
THE WARTS ON THE 
WORLD, 
IMPERFECTIONS IN 
PEOPLE AND PLACES.
I AM A KIND OF VOYEUR AS WELL AS
A HUSBAND.
I'M AN OBSERVER AS
WELL AS ONE WHO 
THINKS HE IS 
OBSERVING.
FITZGERALD SAID 
WRITERS HAVE THAT,
THEY HAVE A SENSE 
OF BEING THERE.
I AM ALSO THOUGH, 
MUST TELL YOU, 
THAT FROM THE TIME
I GOT MARRIED, 
WHICH WAS IN 1959,
EVEN BEFORE THAT, 
I WAS KEEPING AND 
SAVING EVERYTHING 
ABOUT MY MARRIAGE.
EVERY LITTLE NOTE,
EVERY PHONE 
MESSAGE, EVERY
HARDWARE SALES SLIP.
I SAVED THINGS. I HAD
THEM IN MY OFFICE.
I CATALOGED. I HAD FILES.
I SORT OF HAVE 
BEEN MARRIED AT 
THE SAME TIME AN
OBSERVER OF THE MARRIAGE.
>> I CAN'T WAIT
FOR THIS BOOK TO COME OUT.
BECAUSE FOR ONE 
REASON, MAYBE I'M 
A VOYEUR AND I WANT TO READ
ABOUT YOUR LIFE.
BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY
BECAUSE IT WILL GIVE US
A CHANCE TO SIT DOWN
AGAIN AND TALK.
IT IS DELIGHTFUL.
>> THANK YOU FOR 
HAVING ME.
>> TO SPENT TIME 
WITH YOU.
I LOOK FORWARD TO 
MORE.
>> I APPRECIATE 
BEING HERE.
THANK YOU AGAIN.
>> BE SURE TO JOIN
US NEXT WEEK WHEN 
WE SHOWCASE A
PARADE OF GANGSTERS, COMEDIANS,
ENTREPRENEURS, ARTISTS AND
ODDBALLS AS WE EXAMINE THE
HISTORY OF THE CATSKILLS AND
HOW IT CHANGED AMERICA.
♪ ♪ ♪
