(computerized music)
- Welcome and good evening.
Thank you for joining us tonight
for a very special program.
It is wonderful to see
  many of you here tonight,
alumni and friends
 of the Stern school.
My name is Mor Armony
 and I'm the vice dean
of faculty here at Stern.
I'm pleased to welcome you
 to this year's Lubin lecture.
The Lubin lecture
 was established
 through the generosity
He was a 1928 graduate
  of the NYU School of Law.
It was business civic
  and philanthropic leader,
and a trustee of
 New York University.
This lecture is amongst Stern's
most distinguished events
and brings world class leaders
 to NYU's Washington Square
campus to discuss
  important issues
to current and prospective
 business and civic leaders.
This evening, I have
 the distinct pleasure
of introducing to you
 our featured guests,
vice chairman, managing director
and senior client advisor
at Morgan Stanley, Carla
  Harris and our moderators.
(audience applauding)
Vice dean of the Stern School
 of Business, J.P. Eggers.
(audience applauding)
Who will take part
 in a fire side chat.
- Where's the fire?
(audience laughing)
- Momentarily to
 discuss leadership in
 the finance industry
in the 21st century.
J.P. joined Stern
as an associate
professor of management
and organizations in July 2008.
He's recently being appointed
 to the role of vice dean
of MBA programs,
 overseeing a portfolio
that includes the full time MBA,
the Langorn part time
MBA, the executive MBA.
The New Andre Coo-tech MBA
 and fashion and Luxury MBAs,
and the MSN Accounting.
Is that enough for you J.P.?
(laughing)
We are thrilled to have J.P.
in conversation
  with Carla Harris.
We are delighted to
welcome back to campus.
Carla is a woman
of many talents.
Not only has she built
 an impressive career
but also she is a noted
author and singer.
In her 30 year career, Carla
 has had extensive industry
experiences in the
  technology, media,
retail, telecommunications,
 transportation,
industrial and
 healthcare sectors.
In August 2013, she
 was appointed by
 President Barack Obama
to chair the national
  women's business counsel.
She's been named to
  Fortune's Magazine's list
of the 50 Most Powerful
Black executives
in corporate America.
Black enterprises top
 75 most powerful women
in business in 2017, and
 was named Woman of the Year
in 2011 by the Yale Black
 Men's forum among many others.
We feel quite honored
 to have Carla here
with us this evening.
So without further ado,
 please join me in welcoming
Carla Harris and J.P. Eggers.
(audience applauding)
- Carla, it's great to
 have you here tonight.
Thank you very much
 for being here.
- Thank you for having me.
- So in terms of talking
  about themes for tonight,
we were gonna talk about
  thinking about leadership
in the 21st century.
Thinking about leadership
 and being a leader may mean
something different
 now than what it has,
and how it's evolving
  and how people can become
better leaders in that way.
And so, I'll just start off
 with the most general question
to start with, what
 does it mean to be
a leader today in your mind?
- I think to be a leader
today means not only
to have a vision and a
 plan around execution
but more importantly to
create an environment
where other people can
 learn to be leaders.
Where other people can
 actually lead in the context
of your leadership if you will.
I think it also means
 you have to be open
and you have to be
  willing to learn.
And in fact, I will argue,
  you have to be committed
to learning if you are a leader
because things are
  changing so fast
that what might have gotten
 you to that leadership seat
will not be the thing
 that sustain you
in that leadership seat.
So you have to make sure that
 you create time if you will
to continue to invest in
  yourself in order to learn
and to lead other people.
- So the story about the idea
 that you need to continue
to learn because what got you
 there may not be the thing
that's gonna make
  you a good leader
feels like the Peter
 principle in someways.
Where you get promoted to the
 level of your incompetence.
Where you get promoted from
what it was that you were doing,
and then you make it because
 you were good at one thing
then you make it
to the next role
but you end up not
 being good at that,
and then you stop at
 that point in time.
To what extent does this process
of how people are promoted,
and how we think about
 identifying leaders
lead to potential
 problems like this.
- Yes, and one of things
  that J.P. and I talk about
in anticipation of this
  conversation was the fact
that certainly in the industry
 that I have grown up in,
it has been a producer culture.
And I would argue that
 the last few decades
most people have gotten promoted
to positions of leadership
because they were
  good producers.
You put points on the board.
If you were in
  investment banking
or you were in
  sales and trading.
You are an outstanding trader.
The trader that made the most
 money for the last four years
was the one that got
 the gold crown to run
the fixed income division
 or run the equity division.
If you were in real estate,
you put the most
 points on the board
in terms of revenue that
 you brought in to your firm.
And what's interesting to me
and this speaks to
 your first question
about how is leadership
different today.
Back then, I would argue,
  it still happens frankly
when people were put in those
 positions of leadership,
they may or may not
 have been good leaders
but no one really got tagged
 if you weren't a great leader.
No one penalized you
 if three people left
or five people quit or
 there wasn't the same level
of happiness if you will
under your leadership.
As long as the numbers were
 going in the right direction
and I would argue that today
 especially as millennials
and Zers start to become
the dominant population
within our business context.
They want to be managed.
They are demanding
 frankly to be managed
and to be led while they
  want to have an inclusive
environment where their
contribution is valued.
And at the end of the day,
 they want people to show them
how things are supposed
to go if you will
to help to create
  leaders in them.
And that I don't think
 is expected before,
so I do think that those
 of us who are Boomers today
who might still be in
 the leadership seat,
and even some if the older
 Xers, you are going to have to
lead differently than
 you were managed.
We were told put your head
  down and work really hard.
Put the points on the board.
If you don't get fired then
 you know you're doing okay.
So there really wasn't
 that transparency
around what you needed to do,
and again, if you
  think about it.
Those folks that I'm saying
 that got to those positions
of leadership because they
  were a good producers.
Where along the
 way of their career
were they taught
  how to be leaders.
They were taught how
 to be better traders.
They were taught how
 to be better bankers.
They were taught to managed
 the clients differently
and not really have
 to pay attention
to how the people
  underneath them,
may have been suffering,
and it's not just in
 financial services.
You could find that
 in consumer products,
you can find it in healthcare.
You can even find it
 in academia frankly.
And so in my mind,
 and one of the things
that I've been talking
 about recently is that
you have to be intentional.
If you were going to choose
 to have the leadership seat
because after all, you could
 always say no I wanna leave.
Just pay me some more money
but I'm not really good at
 leading and managing people.
I just wanna get more
money but traditionally,
the money has come
 along with the title.
And I think we have to be
  a little bit more honest
about that, if you
 are not a good leader
or a good manager,
says that's not my lane
or I'd like to
 learn how to do that
because it was interesting.
Every time I would see someone
 promoted to run a department.
The very first thing that you
 would say in their speeches
as they were now
 introducing themselves
as the head of blank, blank
 is I don't wanna manage.
I don't wanna manage.
I just want to talk
 to the clients.
I'm not gonna get in your
 way, and I remember thinking
as I was a young buck,
 but wait a minute
isn't the title
  managing director?
(laughing)
But of course as a young
  buck, I wouldn't say that
but I'm thinking wait,
 what do you mean?
You're the guy.
You're the gal.
You're suppose to be but
 nobody wanted to co-manage.
So here are the eight
 things that I think you need
to think about and
 be intentional about
if you're going to choose to
 be in a leadership seat today.
The first one, you
 have to be intentional
about authenticity.
It's interesting J.P.
I see people struggling, still
 today which is why I wrote
about it in my first
 book, Expect to Win.
The very first chapter
 is about authenticity
because I kept hearing
 people struggle with how do
I bring my real self to work.
And if you're gonna choose
 to be in the leadership seat,
it's even more important
 that you do that because then
you motivate and inspire
 those who are working with you
to bring their authentic
self to the table.
And whenever any of us
 is in an environment
where we can be
  who we really are.
We always out perform,
and that will now accrue
to your status in
 that leadership seat.
The other thing you
 have to be intentional
about is building trust.
In an environment where
  innovation is the dominant
competitive parameter, you
  are going to find yourself
going into lands unknown,
 and you can't do that alone.
You gotta have a team, so
  you need to be intentional
about building trust with
  your team very early on.
And in my mind, what that means
is that those who
 are working with you
need to know that you
  are always providing them
with ear cover, that no matter
 what, you have their back
because if your team feels
  that you have their back,
then they will
  always have yours.
And I don't care who you
  are and how good you are,
you do not have 360
  degree peripheral vision.
So you need to have
 your flank covered
and there's no better
 way to have it covered
than with those who
 are working with you.
They need to have a vested
  interest in your success
as a leader if you wanna
 maintain that leadership seat.
The third thing you have to
 be intentional about frankly
is creating other leaders, and
 this was a very interesting
one for me to get my head around
because I am a natural executor.
You give me a list and
 I'm gonna get it done,
and in fact, I get my thrill
 by checking it off the list
but I had to realize that I
 couldn't continue to hold on
to my competency as
 the great executor
if I'm now in the
  leadership seat.
My dominant responsibility
 is to create other leaders,
and the imagery that I
like to use is in order
to get myself to move off of
that comfort of
executing all the time.
Is I say, Carla, you don't
  know what kind of leader
you could be and if you really
 wanna be a great leader,
you have to free up
 some capacity and time
so that you can understand
  what being a great leader
in this context looks like.
So I would say to myself
if you wanna get there,
that's second base.
You cannot get to second base
 with your foot still on first,
and that imagery freed
it up to me to let it go
'cause leadership is a journey
 from execution to empowerment
and my job now
 should be to empower
and to create other leaders.
The fourth thing you have
  to be intentional about
is creating clarity.
As I said, if we are
 operating in an environment
where innovation is the
 dominant competitive parameter
then there are gonna
 be lots of times
when you really don't know
  what the next thing is
but the team is dependent upon
 you to create some clarity
around where you're going,
what are the intended outcomes,
what would you like to
learn in this exercise.
At least create
 clarity around that,
and if you can't create
clarity for the year,
you can't do it for the quarter,
do it for the week sometime,
 do it for a couple of hours.
I've been in an environment of
 innovation at Morgan Stanley
creating our in
  house accelerator.
We have never done
 anything like that.
We've never had an accelerator.
There's no play book, no
other firm on the street
has an in house accelerator.
So there were times when
for the team I said,
today we're gonna do X or
  for the next three hours,
we're trying to do this
or this is what we
need that person to do.
Just creating some
 clarity around that
because when people have
 clarity, again I would argue
they're motivated
  to out perform.
That which you have
 said set as the goal.
The fifth thing that you
have to be intentional
about is diversity, and
  I say that to all people.
Because all of us as humans,
we are likely to
migrate to the familiar,
and we are the familiar.
So you have to be intentional
about making sure that
you have a diverse team
no matter what
  you're prosecuting
'cause otherwise you
 will miss the gaps.
You'll miss the things that
 will make you vulnerable
in the market place
 at the end of the day.
The next thing you
 have to be intentional
about is frankly inclusivity
'cause we all know as
  people say that diversity
is getting an
invitation to the party.
Inclusion is about
  asking somebody to dance.
So again, if you're
 gonna be the leader,
you have to be intentional
about soliciting
 other people's voices
because what happens when you
 get in a corporate environment
or any kind of work
environment is everybody
waits to see how it's gonna go
and what's the
  right thing to say
and how I need to say it.
So people naturally hold back
 on all of their potential
when they get in any context,
 and if you wanna get the best
out of your people, you
have to help develop
this muscle where they
come ready to contribute
so it's almost like
  being in business school.
You get cold called
 all the time, right?
So you come to class
 ready to be called on,
ready to participate
especially when you know
that half your grade depends
 on your participation.
At least that was
  the case for me,
so if you are a powerful
  leader, you have to create
this dynamic in the first
 four meetings where you say,
all right Tim, so tell me
 how you thinking about that.
Here's my straw man,
 how would you give me
the counter argument to that.
Okay, that's pretty good.
Now J.P., he gave a
  really credible argument,
so how would you push back?
Where are the vulnerabilities?
So Cynthia, how are
you thinking about that
so that you create this
dynamic where people are use to
challenging each
 other and excuse me,
not feeling offended by it.
You do that four
 times, the fifth time,
you won't have to
  call on your team.
They'll come ready
  to participate
and they'll come ready to play
 and excited about playing.
The next thing you have to
 be intentional about teaching
your team how to fail.
If you're going to compete
 in an innovative environment,
you have to remember that
  leaders don't compete,
they disrupt and in
 order to disrupt,
you have to get
 really comfortable,
and you have to innovate
  almost as a second muscle.
But if you are afraid of
 failing, you won't innovate.
So you gotta get them
comfortable that failing
is just a part of the equation.
And the way you do
 that is frankly to
 celebrate the failures
and to celebrate the tries.
Just the fact that they
 tried, you gotta give somebody
an atta boy or an atta
 girl, and voice it.
Here's what we learn.
Yeah we fail, we
failed miserably
that might cost us some money
but here's why it was
 good for us to do that
at the end of the day.
And the last thing you have
 to be intentional about
as a leader today is your voice.
I feel strongly that your voice
is at the heart of your
power and as a leader,
you gotta call a thing a thing.
When it's not right,
 you gotta call it
and you gotta call it
 for exactly what it is
and if you demonstrate
 exercising your voice
then you will empower those
 who are working with you
to do that and as a leader,
you wanna hear what your folks
are thinking because again,
you won't be able to be the
 best leader you could be
if you don't
understand the audience
or as I like to
 say your customers.
And those who are working with
 you, they're your customers.
They are the customer
 to your leadership.
- I mean in some ways as I
think about a lot of the things
you were going through.
You started with the statement
 or the story from your past
thinking about the person,
so if they don't
 wanna be a manager.
In a lot of ways, a lot
  of what you're describing
is not being a manager
 in the classic way
we think about managing
where you're overseeing
or working with someone.
A lot of this does feel
 like you're trying to think
about how do I empower
 people and create the space
for things to happen.
You're not managing
 in a tradition sense.
Do you view being a
  manager and being a leader
as being different things
 and how do we tell them apart
when you need to be
 one verses the other?
- Well thank you
  for that question
because in my mind,
 they are synonymous.
- Okay.
- I know that
technically they are not
and if you look
  in the dictionary,
you're gonna get two
 different definitions
but in my mind, if you
have the responsibility
of managing people, you
should be leading them
but that should be your default.
- So then the manager is
 either synonymous with this
or you wanna go with
 them being different.
The manager means you're
 doing a poorly effectively,
and that being the leader
  then is being the--
- It is possible to be
 an effective manager
and a poor leader if that's
 what you're asking me.
Yes sir.
- I guess effectively that
  was the question would be
and certainly there had
been lots of stories
about people out there.
Some of them very successful,
 who maybe you would qualify
as being poor leaders by at
 least some of the definitions
you're thinking about
 there in some ways.
When I'm thinking about,
I'll just pick out a
 couple of those pieces
that you're were
  pulling on there.
You talk about failures
 being one of these key pieces
being willing to
 fail and encouraging
and celebrating failure.
The cynic in me would say
 well, but what if the reason
that the idea failed
 or the project failed
was because they were
  bad people working on it.
We need to figure out who the
 good people we need to keep,
and who are the bad
ones we need to replace
at the same time.
So 'cause if you just
 celebrate failure,
it's easy to fail
 over and over again
if you're really
 gonna celebrate that.
So you need to have failure
 that gets the success.
How do you figure
 out whether a failure
should be celebrated
 versus when a failure
is a signal that we need to
 do something differently.
- Yes, well I think
 if you get everybody's
imprimatur on the blue
 print very early on
then it's easier to
  figure out whether or not
people are pulling their weight
because if I've gotten
  everybody to participate,
and now we've come
 up with this is what
we're gonna try to do.
And then there are
 pieces of it that fail
then I can quickly
  figure out whether or not
that was a bad strategy
or whether or not
that person didn't execute
  especially if we decided
that this is the thing
that needed to be done.
I think your job as a leader
 is to be able to engage enough
with your people and
stay close enough to it
so that you can actually tell.
And the mistake that people
 make is being too hands off.
They don't know where
it goes awry or with who
or it takes it too long,
and I think a human
  failing around leadership
and I certainly
  have had this one
is not replacing
 people fast enough.
I remember hearing
  Meg Whitman speak
and she said one of
 her key jobs as a CEO.
This is when she was at
eBay was to make sure
that the right people
 were in the right seat
at the right time.
So while Harold might
  have been the right person
at that point, they may no
  longer be the right person
now that this thing has evolved.
And most of the time as
 leaders if this is our team,
we've gotten wedded
 to that team.
And it's a hard
  choice to now say
but he's not the one, and
  I think being too slow
on that piece can be a problem.
So I think what you
 need to do as a leader
is to constantly stay
 close enough to your people
so that you can evaluate them.
And when you start to
  see or you start to smell
that maybe not in
 this next evolution,
you start to actively think
 about how can you repot
that person or how can
 you help guide them
to their best and highest use
if you know now it's not
gonna build your team.
- And how do you, I don't
 wanna get too detailed here
but how do you think
 about how to do that
when you still have the
backs of your people?
How do you tell them that they
 need to move out of this role
but still make them
 feel like they are
a valued part of the team
 that you respect in that way,
and that's a challenge.
- Well, I'll tell you that's
 one thing I am proud of
that I actually
  have done recently
and it wasn't that
  difficult to do.
I could see that the train
  wreck was about to happen,
so I gave more time to thinking
about what is this person
really good at and where
do they really light up.
And then I was able
 to talk to them about
you're doing okay with this
but this is not where you live.
Let's have this
 honest conversation.
In the first conversation,
  the person oh no, no, no,
I love it, I love it, I love it
but in the next conversation
 they're like yeah.
(audience laughing)
Right but I had to talk to
 them to say I'm watching you
and I see it, and when we
 talk about X, you light up.
And when we talk so I had to
 get that person comfortable
in understanding that it's
 not that you can't do this.
You can do this but
 you don't live here.
This is not where you light up
and when we talk about
 this, you light up.
So my gut is telling me
 here's where you need to go.
And so it took about three
  or four conversations
but then the person decided
that this is what
  they wanted to do
and then I used my resources
and my currency to
 help them get there
while giving them a
 great recommendation
saying this person is
 great but I gotta tell you.
I know they love this
 'cause this is what happens
every time I give them something
that's even remotely like
  this, here's what happens.
And now the person is
 thriving in that space
but it took some conscious
 effort on my part as a leader
and again, if I have their back
and I'm thinking about that
and spend some time doing it.
- It's really important
  to figure out how to build
that relationship, how to build
the lines of communications
with people in that way
  in order to convince them,
and show them, not
  just convince them
but show them that you have
 their back in that way.
That's a challenge as I'm
 thinking about these pieces
we're talking about before,
that's an increasing
 challenge in a world
where workforce is
 more and more diverse
in many different ways.
Age, gender, ethnicity,
  international background,
sexual orientation, any number
 of ways in which diversity
is continuing to expand
and such a huge part
of the workforce.
Building a close trusting
  relationship with someone
who's a lot like
 you is a lot easier
research would tend to show
then building that relationship
with someone who is
different than you are.
How do you think about
  how to develop the muscles
to manage a diverse
 team in that way?
- Yes, it is contact sport J.P.
I think leadership in the
 21st century is contact sport.
There is no substitution
for actually engaging
and if you know that
 you don't know a lot
about a certain culture
then you need to spend
 time with people.
And I do strongly believe
  in reverse mentoring
to tell someone especially
  of a different generation,
listen I don't
 know how this goes.
I can't tell you how many time
I asked a analyst to
 show me how to tweet.
When it first became.
I'm like what's this thing,
 Twitter, tweeter what?
But I dedicated myself to
  learning about what it was
and even today, I have
 younger associates
who are working with
 me and they'll come
and again, the millennial
  way is to do it.
And I'll have to say
 no, no, don't do it,
let me do it.
You have to tell me how to do it
otherwise I won't know but
  I have to touch it myself
but I'm quick to
  ask for their help
but I won't know what
 they're thinking.
I won't know what they
 value if I don't spend time
getting to know them, if I
don't go out to lunch with them,
if I don't have coffee
with them in my office.
So again if you're gonna choose
to be in a leadership seat
and you want to be really
 powerful, impactful leader,
you have to spend
 some with your people.
That's why I started this
by saying you have
  to be intentional,
and it is contact sport.
You cannot be a my way or the
 highway type leader today,
and be impactful.
It used to be that fear
was a great motivator,
and you could lead by fear.
That dog does not hunt today
because the
  professionals of the day,
the really good talent,
they just leave.
They're not going to stand
  for a lack of engagement.
People value being seen
 and they value being heard,
and you have to make
 sure you are engaging
so that they feel valued.
And the only way to do
 it is to get out there
and spend time with them.
- And so a lot of
 that seems to suggest
that being able to
  learn as you said.
The key piece of
 your ability to move
and adapt as a leader.
This seems almost a
 tautology in some ways
but how does one
 learn how to learn?
Where do you think you develop
the ability to try and do that?
- Well I think you really
 learn how to learn in school.
So whether is college
or your graduate school,
that's where you
  learn how to think
and you also learn
 more about learning
and how you learn.
And as you get more
 seasoned, not old
but as you get more
seasoned, I would argue
that your learning is different.
How you've taken things
and for all of us,
we are learning
  in a different way
because it's coming
 at us so fast.
If you think about what
you do now on your phone
relative to what you did on
 your phone two years ago,
let alone five years ago.
It's very different.
- And so as I think about
  a lot of these things
and if I make the contrast
 between the producer culture
or the producer
 mindset to some extent
versus this leadership mindset.
I would feel like if you're
 thinking in a producer world,
the argument is that
you play your strengths.
You should figure out
  what you should be good at
and you should capitalize
  on those to be successful.
It almost feels like and to
 me this is what you're saying.
What you're saying
  is to be a leader,
it feels like you need to play
to your weaknesses
  to some extent.
You need to find ways to
 challenge those weaknesses.
Try not to do it in the
high stake situations
but it's really
 trying to be aware of
and go after those weakness
 or the lack of knowledge
or lack of understanding
that you have.
Is that a way to characterize
 or a way to think about this?
- Not necessarily
  your weaknesses
but be cognizant of the things
 that you need to be strong
around that you may not be.
So again, I wouldn't
 say that empathy
or learning from other people
 or creating collaborative
environments or being more open
to learning to other people
or being inclusive
 whatsoever weaknesses.
There are things that
 I think that I did
because this is who I am
but I realize now how important
it is to be intentional
around doing it, don't just
 leave it as one of the things
that's just a part
  of my personality.
That these things
  do actually matter
and they are valued now by
  those that I am leading.
So I wouldn't necessarily
  call them weaknesses,
I'm saying be cognizant
of who you need to be
if you wanna be an
  impactful leader
and what I just
 gave you the gospel
according to Carla around
  these eight things.
And so I say them to people
who are already season leaders.
People who are in the
 leadership seat today
who are scratching their
  heads around how to retain
the best talent and I'm
 saying it to people who are
ascending now to
positions of leadership,
so that you can be more
thoughtful about it
but there may not be weaknesses.
They may be things that
you're already strong at
that I'm saying
 underscore, amplify.
- And so for people who are
 trying to figure out which,
you talk about the idea
that there maybe still
an opportunity for people
  to be the point producer
who puts the points
 on the board.
You still need those
  people in the organization
as well as the leaders.
How would you
 recommend for people
who are trying to
  figure out well
which one of these
  do I wanna be?
Obviously, you can get promoted,
take that leadership role
  and then crash and burn
and realize it's really
not the right thing
but are there ways to
 figure this out in your mind
beyond trying it and being
  like, oh I'm not so sure
I like it so much.
- Now here's where I
 think organizations
are going to have to change.
I think organizations
 need to be more honest
about what they need
 from their people,
and what kind of training
  they're willing to provide
because if you think about it.
Most organizations have
pulled back a little bit
on training in one
  way or another.
So I think they
  need to say okay,
J.P. is a really great trader
and we want him as a trader.
Let's have a conversation
  with him to figure out
whether or not he wants to
 continue to stay in this line
and drive it, and we'll figure
 out what the conversation
and reward scheme looks like
or whether or not he wants
  to evolve into somebody
who is creating other traders.
And now that will require
 him to do some other things,
and if that's the
 way he wants to go,
let's think about how we
  invest in him in that way.
And I don't think those
conversations happen
because people have
 been conditioned in
 certain environments
that in order to move up,
 you have to aspire to this.
So the gold ring is really
  to run the department.
Well really?
Maybe we could think
about that differently.
Maybe the gold ring for
  you is more and more money
or it is more vacation
or it is something else
or it is giving you
 the crown as the guide
but you don't
 necessarily have to be
the head of the department.
So I think organizations
need to think about
what do we really need in order
to retain the best people?
Who is going to be
  someone that can motivate
and inspire people
  to just go beyond
what they think they can do.
Isn't that what we need?
And if that's what we
  need, what is the profile
of that person looks like?
- And so I guess there's
  a supply and demand piece
of that in some ways.
The way you're talking
 about it in that case,
it feels like it's one of
  the things that we need
and who can we get
  into those roles.
Could you flip it
 around the other way
and I can imagine
 flipping and saying,
look you wanna look across
 your entire team at all times
and think about maybe what is
 the next job for that person.
What is the next step for them
and figure we'll make
 all the pieces work
with every person
  should have that.
What are they working towards?
Is that a way to think about it?
- I like it, I like it
 and most organizations
don't think about it that way.
Most organizations are not
good at repotting their talent.
So they get somebody who's been
doing something for 20 years
that person now says, hey,
  I wanna do something else.
And what I counsel people
  when they're telling me
they want to do something
 else is I say think through
your organization and think
 through what's the role
that's really gonna
 get you excited
because most organizations are
 not good at repotting people
so when you raise
 your had and you say,
I'm ready to do something else.
You've now put yourself in play,
which means you
 gotta in most cases.
So when you go to someone in HR
or when you go to your
manager, you should say
look, I love doing
  what I'm doing
but I've been doing
 it for a long time.
And here are five things that
 I know I'm really good at
as a result of having done
 this for the last two decades,
and here's how I think
 you can use that.
Now I don't know what the
 job is but here's the content
of the next job that I want.
And that way, you at
least help them help you
by now they say, we
 don't wanna lose J.P.
and he's interested
 in A, B, C and D.
You now give them a
little bit of a road map
so they can say we
  don't have a job
that looks like that
 but we have a job
that has three out of the four.
So J.P. are you
 interested in this?
And that's usually how you
  can get yourself repotted
in an organization.
- And that's a challenge
 from a leadership perspective
because that repotting often
 means losing that person
off of your team in
 many of those cases.
And so I would think
 then willing to,
you've just gotten this
great person on team,
the incentive of course
is to keep that person
doing what they're
 doing over and over.
- Right.
- You've gotta be
willing to let them go.
- That's exactly right.
Remember what I
 said at the outset.
Your job is to
 create other leaders.
so if you're doing
  this correctly,
they should be now graduating
 onto the next thing.
And you should be
 pretty proud of that
this person is now doing this
 thing for the organization
because of the training
  that they've had with you.
- So a few minutes ago, we
 were talking about Twitter.
You were talking about
 Twitter a little bit
and with that we can
come to the last thread
I wanna push on a little bit,
which is thinking about how
 we talk about leadership
has changed based upon diversity
and it changes in the
 nature of business
but technology is
changing business a lot
in a lot of these ways.
Is being a leader different
 now than it used to be
in terms of how technology
  is changing things
and if so how is
 technology relevant
from a leadership perspective?
- I think it's
 really relevant now
because we're getting
so much data that gives.
Now the data is going
 to allow us to predict
behavior which is
something I would argue
that we didn't have
access to 25 years ago.
So again going to this
concept around investing
in your own capabilities
  that I think as a leader.
You have to think about
 what can the data tell you,
and more importantly
 how fast can you move
around what you
 learn from this data,
and then get your organization
 faster towards gathering
and being able to understand
 and read that data as well
and be able to come up with
 solutions, processes, changes
and I think getting the
 organization use to looking
at that data is part of what
 your job is as a leader.
And that's gonna be tough for
 those of us who are Boomers
who have I would
 say largely governed
or led by our experience
and our war stories
as oppose to the
  actual hard data.
So I think that's gonna be a
 skill that we have to acquire
and that we also have to teach
and distribute if you will.
The other thing is the
way that we communicate.
We now have really put
  ourselves into a 24/7 mode
and as much as we
  say it's important
for people to have down time.
You have people sending
texts and doing things
at three o'clock in the morning.
And I think we have
 to be thoughtful
about what message
  we are sending
as leaders when we do that.
I would never forget
 this was 2006,
the MD that I was
working for at the time,
he had gone on vacation a
 couple of weeks before I had,
and he was sending emails.
And I remember thinking, he's
 sending emails from vacation.
Is he gonna expect that
I'm gonna be connected?
And at that time, I had a rule
 that once I went on vacation,
that was it.
I didn't look at emails
 but that was the first time
that I did because I
 realized that this guy
was sending me emails,
 he was gonna expect
that I was gonna be
  connected the whole time.
And again, I think
 we gotta be careful
because you don't
 wanna burn people out.
We are all integrating
 work life and personal life
in a much bigger way
  than we were 10 years ago
but I think you wanna be careful
to give people their space
so that they can really
restore and rejuvenate.
And I think there's still no
 substitute from getting away
from something in
order to really do that
and do it fully,
so I think we gotta
 be a little careful
about how we manage
 that as well.
- So lots more data on one
  end but at the same time,
the ability to disconnect
  and have that--
- That's exactly right, and
again the mode of communication
is what I was speaking to.
Again, it used to be
that you would only talk
to somebody on the work device,
and now I find that I have
 the folks who work with me,
I have their personal cell
numbers, and then we're texting.
Now again, I'm a Boomer,
so when we text I'm like
'cause that feels like
  you have my personal phone
but that's just how
the next generation is,
that's how they're operating
so I have to be
  willing to do too.
I have to also be willing
  to accept that somebody
is sitting right
 outside of my office
and they're sending me an email.
Again as a Boomer, I'm
  like get up, come in here.
But again, I have to
 be flexible as well.
- So I could probably keep
  asking questions all night
but I wanna make sure that
 we get a chance for everyone
in the room to ask
 questions of Carla.
So let me open it up
 to Q&A at this point,
and we can go from there.
You can tap the microphone.
Is there a button in front
 of you to turn your mic on?
Make sure we can hear
 you so there you go.
- [David] Hi Carla, thank
  you so much for coming.
My name is David Knapp
 and my question is
you listed eight qualities
  of a great leader,
and my assumption is that
 most leaders probably don't
or most managers probably don't
exhibit all those qualities.
So what is your advice
  for people who are working
for a leader that doesn't
 have all of your strengths?
- Yes, I would say that
 learn everything that you can
from that leader because I
  feel strongly that you can
learn something from everybody
even if it's how
 you don't wanna be.
But figure out what you
  can learn form that person
but then the other
 thing is don't forget
that you could
 lead from any seat.
So you can exhibit
some of those qualities
and you will be surprised to
 how people that are above you
may actually start
 adopting things that you do
because they admire
the way you are leading
those who are around you
or those who may be below you,
and that you are
  an admired leader,
so I would not be deterred
  because my manager,
or my leader is not
 exhibiting that.
I would actually start
to exhibit that and see
whether or not I
can infect them.
- Other questions, go ahead.
- [Henry] Hi Carla, I'm Henry.
Thank you very much for
 coming to speak with us today.
I happen to have
caught you on Fox News.
I think it was a
 business interview.
- Yeah Fox Business
 News to be clear.
(audience laughing)
- [Henry] Have to be
 careful these days.
During the program,
 you talked somewhat
about the multicultural
innovation center.
- Yes.
- [Henry] Which sounds
 very interesting.
I think you talked about
a little bit tonight.
Had interesting start
  ups such as the Hatch Ads
another one for doing
 blood testing at home.
- myLAB Box.
- [Henry] Yeah, I wondered if
 you can talk a little bit more
about that with
  the group tonight,
and also how Morgan Stanley
 source these companies.
Do they come to you or did
 you go out and recruit them?
And if I may also a second part.
I just bought your book and
 looking forward to reading it.
Skimming the book, it seems
 like the last part of the book
you talk about the role
of faith and religion.
- Yes.
- [Henry] So I'm wondering
  if you could maybe share
a little bit about that.
- Absolutely, okay so I'll
  save that one for last.
So myLAB Box, I'll tell you
 about the Morgan Stanley
innovation lab.
A couple years ago,
 the chairman asked me
to chair the multicultural
  clients strategy,
and I say thank you for your
 confidence but what is that?
So he said, "Listen, no firm
on this street has actually led
"in this space around engaging
"with multicultural constituency
"so there's an opportunity
  and I wanna lead,
"and your job, you figure
  out what that looks like."
So there are three main
 products that we came up with.
One was a senior multicultural
 leaders conference.
Nowhere in the country was
 there a business conference,
not a diversity conference
  but a business conference
targeting the most
  senior African Americans,
the most senior Hispanics,
  the most senior Asians,
the most senior American
Indians that are working
in corporate America
 to come together
for a business conference
  where we talked about
the imperative in the
 corporate board room today.
We talked about
 the war for talent.
We talked about the
 global capital market.
We talk about cyber security
 and counter terrorism
whatever the key business
  conflict for that year.
And we've done it
 now for three years,
and it's been a sold
 crowd each time.
The second one was the
  capital access initiative
where we partnered with
the national development
council and the urban
league to actually bring
regular way loans to
 businesses of color,
and communities where the
 urban league had a presence
that we started in Cleveland.
We did one in Broward
and now we have morphed
that actually into a
 conversation on the podcast.
So it's called access
 and opportunity,
and what we're trying
 to do is to elevate
a conversation around
 the lack of capital
that goes to women and
 multicultural entrepreneurs,
because clearly the market
  place must not realize
the magnitude of the opportunity
when only 4% of D.C.
 dollars go to women,
less than 2% goes
 to people of color.
What I said was wow, that is
 a clear market inefficiency
so there is clearly a
commercial opportunity.
That's economics 101.
There's a market inefficiency,
 it's a commercial opportunity
so that's why we started
prosecuting the space,
and in this podcast we're
  actually talking to people
who are making lots
 of money investing
with entrepreneurs
  of color and women
and the entrepreneurs themselves
to present a playbook
 to the marketplace.
If you're an asset allocator,
here's how you want
 to think about it.
If you're an entrepreneur,
  here's some examples
of how other entrepreneurs
  have access this capital.
And then there is the lab,
  and there we're looking at
tech enabled companies
 across all industries,
and actually giving
 them three things.
We're giving them capital.
Most accelerators
  give them anywhere
between $200,000 and
 $300,000 in capital.
We've done the same thing
 for a single digit percentage
in the company.
We're giving them content.
Five months of curriculum
  and then a demo day,
which we just did last week.
That was their coming out to a
 roomful of diverse investors,
and when I say diverse investors
I mean institutional
  investors, family offices,
high net worth individuals,
corporate VCs as well
 as regular way VCs.
And the last thing that we're
 given them is connections
because being the leading
  global investment bank,
there's no relationship
that we can't access.
And there's a lot
  of relationships
that would either help
  them scale their business
or they could end up
being an M and A target
for one of our good
 customers, who knows.
So that's what we're
 providing to them,
and in terms of
  how we source them
and we were talking
about this before hand.
A very valuable lesson
 that I have learned
that I have actually learnt
 from a friend of mine
is that the messenger matter.
And because we have been
  playing around this space
for the last two or three
 years, the market place now
knows that we're
  serious about it.
So the fact that we,
 my partner and I,
Alice Vilma and I go out to
actually talk to these companies
and we are very much
apart of the ecosystem.
When we put out our
 invitation to apply,
people start applying.
And this is only
our second year.
We put our invitation
 to apply out
last Tuesday at the demo day.
We've already
 gotten 50 companies,
and yesterday made a week.
Yesterday was Tuesday?
I don't know what day.
(audience laughing)
Okay, yeah, 50
  companies already,
and the first year we did
  it, we didn't advertise.
We just went out on
 the whisper network
which means Alice, Morgan
  Stanley is doing this.
Carla went, Morgan
 Stanley is doing this.
And we got a hundred
 submissions for five spots.
Last year, we put
  out the invitation
to apply over Christmas break,
so it was December
 2019 to January 15th,
we got 300 companies
 for 10 spots.
And this year, we're probably
 gonna expand it again
because there's so
  much of a demand.
- The last piece was
on talking about faith.
- Oh the faith,
  thank you so much.
That's why I made
 it the last chapter
because if you remembered
 nothing else about the book.
I wanted you to be very
  clear that I feel strongly
that my success has
not been about who I am
but about whose I am
 at the end of the day.
So what I wanted to present
 to the reader was here
is how I have done it.
Here are all my
 favorite scriptures
that no matter what's
 going on, I go to this
so that I get my power.
This is where I get
 my power and my fuel
and my confidence and
 my ability to execute.
And that's why I
wrote about that
and I gotta tell you,
 I probably have gotten
as much feedback about that as
 I have about the entire book.
Because again and notice
how I started the book
with authenticity and
 I ended it with that.
because I felt like I
 could not be authentic
if I didn't have
  that in the book.
So that's why I booked in the
 rest of the advice that way
but you'd be surprised how
many people have said thank you
for even acknowledging it,
or saying it and how much
  trepidation people have
around being able to
 express themselves
as a spiritual person in
their work environment.
It's been really interesting
 to see the feedback, yes.
- We got time maybe for
a couple more questions
before we run out of time here.
- [Sharon] Hi Carla, my
name is Sharon Samuel.
So you mentioned, sorry I'm
 trying to make eye contact.
(laughing)
- It's all right, I'll just go
 back and forth, that's okay.
- [Sharon] So you
  mentioned creating leaders
and you also
 mentioned diversity,
so what are some of the ways
that you found to be successful
to really give people
 of diverse backgrounds
the opportunity to
 really become leaders.
People of different stages
  in life and circumstances
have you found that
 to be successful?
- Sure, it's really around
 giving people the opportunity
for example to
  speak in a meeting
especially if you know
 that they're gonna be other
leaders there that probably
 don't know them that well,
and giving them a little
prep ahead of time
so that they show well.
And at the end of the day
 encouraging people to take on
responsibility that they may
 feel they're not ready for
but again giving them the
  tools to be successful.
I believe that if you're
gonna give people a shot
to really show their stuff.
If I'm a good leader, I
wanna try to make sure
that you do that well
 without taking away
your ability to fail.
But try to prep you
 but I think again,
it's again it's around
 being intentional.
And you just can't ignore the
 folks that are on your team
and think that people are
 gonna get the opportunities
to develop and lead
 without your guidance
because most, especially
young professionals
are lost in environments,
  and I think the days
are gone where we
 say you sink or swim.
Only the strong will survive.
I have never ascribe
 to that at all
and I think it's our job.
We wanna make sure
 that we make the most
of this high price talent that
 comes to our organizations.
It's our jobs to make
sure that they flourish
even if they leave
 and go someplace else
'cause I always say
  that's the beauty of being
in a service business.
The folks that leave your
organization may be your clients
so you wanna be thoughtful
  about the experience
that they have when
 they are with you.
- Maybe we got, go ahead, yeah.
- [Jane] It's on, Carla hi.
Jane Newton.
- Hi Jane.
- [Jane] Continue to
 inspire me thank you.
She's an amazing
 person on all levels.
I love your eight needs
to be a great leader.
Would your advice be
 different in general
if you are speaking to
 a woman verses a man?
- No ma'am, exactly the same.
- [Jane] Let me ask
 a follow up then.
- I knew you had
 one girl, go ahead.
(audience laughing)
- [Jane] I'm not completely
 surprised to hear that answer.
What do you see in general
  are some of the things
especially in the male
 dominated industry
that you've thrived in?
What are some of the
  differences that you think
hold back women compare
to men as leaders?
- I will ask you a question
 directly 'cause I believe
in answering people's question
but I also wanna add something,
so the answer to
your question is
what are the things that
I think hold us back.
I think part of it is the voice.
If I'm gonna do it
around my eight things,
part of it is the voice.
I think a lot of the times
 women don't express themselves
or don't ask for the order
  i.e the promotion money,
the other things that they
 might want as fast as men do
in some of these environments
especially if it's a male
  oriented environment.
So that would be one
 point of distinction
that I would make there.
But I had to tell you the
 other thing is that I think
as women, we are apt to be
 inclusive early I would say.
We are generally collaborative
and we like to include people.
So interestingly enough, I
 think this is an environment
where that is tailor
 made for women leaders
because of what
 this next generation
of professionals are demanding.
The inclusivity,
  the collaboration,
the transparency, the feedback.
We're quick to give
 feedback to people as well.
So I do think that we
ought to take advantage
of the environment that we
  are finding ourselves in.
I also think women
 get their shot to be,
women and people of
color disproportionately
get their shot to be
  leaders when it's chaotic.
Look at the evidence.
I want you to go back and
  look at all the women CEOs
and look at the CEOs of color,
and look at when they
 took over those seats
if you wanna test my theory.
- Maybe time for one more.
If we've got, no one in room.
Let's go over here
  actually, sorry.
- [Alan] No thank you Carla.
Just inspirational comment.
- Thank you.
- [Alan] I'm Alan,
building on a colleagues
question over there, would
 your advice be any different
to a person of color.
One thing that I've noticed
 that a lot of companies
these days talk about what they
perceive to be the benefits
of diversity and inclusivity.
That they do a lot of
  time admiring the problem
and not doing anything
  meaningful to address it.
- Yes, so would my advice be
different to a person of color?
No, I would tell you,
 here's the similarity.
It would be the voice piece
because again being a
 woman and a person of color
if there's anything that I
  slapped my own wrists for
is for not playing big enough
especially with my
 voice early enough.
And so often, I don't
 think that we perceive
when we have power
 and if you don't know
when you have power or
when you have leverage,
you certainly don't use it
'cause you don't
  think you have it.
And there were times
 when I look back now
and I go oh, I had
 leverage, I had power.
I had an opportunity
 to exercise my voice
and I didn't and as you
can see, I am not quiet.
I'm not a quiet person
 but yet I didn't
so if there's anything
 that I would push people on
is around exercising their voice
because when you do that then
 you can use silence as power.
Right but you can't
 use it that way
if you've never
 exercised your voice.
- We've got time for one real
 quick one over here maybe.
- Hi Carla, thanks
 so much for coming.
I also work in financial
 services and I'm very curious
to hear your thoughts on
relationship building,
and the role that
 that potentially plays
in finding your next role
or whether you should
 drive the process.
But often, I think in the
 sector we hear, I'm tapped.
I'm always tapped
  for my next role,
and I'm just curious
 what role that plays?
- Yes, oh thank you so
 much for that question
and that is a
 perfect last question
'cause it gives me
  an opportunity to
  tell you something
that's in the new book, okay.
(audience laughing)
So he mentioned that.
The new book didn't just come
 out actually Strategize to Win
was written and
  released in 2015.
The book you just bought
was released in 2009,
and in that book, the most
 important thing that I write
about is performance, currency
 and relationship currency,
and this plays a
 very important part
and I actually wrote about this.
As J knows, I don't often
 give gender specific advice
but here is one where it
 specifically applies to women
and to people of color.
Performance currency is the
 currency that's generated
by you're delivering that
  which was asked of you,
and it is important because it
 will do three things for you.
It creates the reputation.
Early in your career, it
 gets you paid and promoted,
and it also may
  attract a sponsor
'cause everybody loves a star.
But at the end of the
day performance currency
which I would argue is
 worth about a buck 50
very early on but it
 starts to experience
diminishing margins of returns,
and works its way from a
 buck 50 back down to a dollar
'cause now you've established
 a new standard of excellence
everybody knows you're good,
and everybody knows
you will always deliver
so no premium there.
The premium now is the
 relationship currency
while the performance
 currency creates
the opportunity to move.
It is the relationship
 currency that actually creates
the mobility and relationship
 currency is the currency
that is generated by the
  investments that you make
in the people in
  your environment.
So people will say oh,
 I was tapped for that
but you were tapped
  'cause somebody knew you.
You were tapped because you had
a relationship with someone.
You were tapped because
 somebody behind closed doors
said, yep, J.P. is the guy.
So then if the decision
was made to come
and tap you on the
 shoulders and said,
now we want you to do X.
But that was all
 about a relationship
because all of the critical
 decisions about your career
are made behind closed doors.
So somebody has to
 argue on your behalf
and while your performance
  currency gets your name
on the short list
 that's being discussed
behind closed doors.
When your name is called
if nobody in that room
can speak on your behalf,
they just go to the
 next name on the list.
And it has absolutely
 nothing to do
with your ability to do the job
but everything to do
 with whether or not
somebody in that room knows
 you well enough to say,
oh yeah, she'll be great.
Oh, she'll walk through walls.
Oh you know what,
  teams love her.
She'll be able to get
the whole team motivated
to do this thing.
So you must invest
 in the relationships,
and so if you're interested
 in doing something
that you have not
  been tapped for
then if you have relationships,
you can go to a sponsor
and say you know, I know you
 guys are gonna be talking
about this behind closed doors,
and I really want that shot.
And here's why I think
  I'll be good a doing that,
and I hope you'll support
  me in the conversation,
and I think you can
 get it done for me.
That you need to have a
relationship to be able to have
that conversation
 and to make the ask.
If you don't have
  any relationship,
who are you gonna ask?
And now you're hoping
that somebody picks you
and as the great
 philosopher Mike Tyson said,
"Hope is not a strategy."
(audience laughing)
All right, can't do that.
You gotta have
 those relationships
especially in
 financial services.
I'm gonna be honored
 and privilege enough
to be doing a TED Talk
on sponsorship tomorrow,
and I'm so excited about it
because I've been talking
  about it since 1990.
Nobody was talking
  about sponsorship.
I started talking
  about it in 1990,
and now people who
 were in the audience
when I was talking about it,
they've written books about it.
They've built institutes on it
and frankly I could
 be not more pleased
because it is the relationship
 that people need to focus on.
Everyone still
 talks about a mentor
but the honest truth is you
 could survive a long time
without a mentor but
you are not gonna ascend
in any organization
 without a sponsor.
And a sponsor is a
 person that's carrying
your paper into the room.
That's the person that
 behind closed doors,
that's the person who spends
 their currency on your behalf
so no matter what you're doing,
invest in those
relationships, it's key.
- I'm gonna hand it back over
 to Mor to wrap things up here.
- [Mor] Wow, that
 was so fascinating.
(audience applauding)
Thank you Carla and J.P. for
 this very thought provoking
conversation and of course,
thank you all for
  coming tonight.
Carla, if may add principle
number nine to good leadership,
provide food.
(audience laughing)
So we're doing that,
so please join us for
the post event reception
just outside the room, and we
 do hope to see you in future
events of Stern
 alumni, good night.
- Thank you.
(audience applauding)
(uptempo instrumental music)
