Darrell Bock: So let me ask you this question,
Shane, because it’s an interesting observation.
What do you suspect you’ll have to adjust
to going back, if you’re going back?
What do you expect that experience to be like
as you think – I mean you’re still a little
ways away from it but still?
Shane Angland: Yeah, I don’t know what it’s
going to be like.
It will take a huge adjustment.
It’s a different world where evangelicalism
is a minority, and church is done differently
in a minority setting.
I think it’s a lot tighter.
People tend to be active in their faith by
virtue of them even going to a church.
It comes expected for them to be active like
that.
But I don’t really foresee how I can – I
don’t know, I don’t know what to expect
really going back, I mean I really don’t.
Darrell Bock: Here’s a problem that some
people face and maybe I’m asking it ahead
of time, maybe we need to do this in five
years after you’ve graduated and gone back,
but do you anticipate an adjustment being
that now that you’ve seen a variety of things
and what’s possible and thinking about going
back and doing some of those things, what
the reaction might be?
Do you anticipate and would you ever have
a sense of saying, well, they’ll react to
that because they’ll think I’m just trying
to do something American rather than doing
something Christian?
Shane Angland: Yeah.
The American coming back wanting to change
everything.
My home churches back in Ireland are very
much excited that I’m here in Dallas and
they’re eager for Katie and I to come back
and to get involved in church life.
I don’t really have any grand visions of
changing everything when I go back.
I think I’m a pretty realistic person, really.
I just want to take the excellent teaching
and instruction that I’ve been getting here
and use that in a way that’s beneficial.
Maybe I might start an adult Sunday school
class, I don’t know.
Darrell Bock: You’ve said that a few times.
Shane Angland: I like it, I really do, yeah,
maybe.
Darrell Bock: Yeah, interesting.
Cesar, what do you think?
Cesar Restrepo: Yes.
In Venezuela, most of the Protestant churches
are Pentecostals and most of them are prosperity
gospel.
So when I go back, I would like to start a
church that is more biblically based and perhaps
also incorporating some of the things I’ve
learned in the church in the U.S., the small
groups, the Sunday school, things that we
usually don’t do over there.
And I think that change for a person who comes
from the Catholic background to go to a Presbyterian
church would be much less, they would feel
more at home than going to the Pentecostal
churches where they are more vocal, I would
say.
Darrell Bock: So this question comes to mind.
You know, American culture is very individualistic,
particularly when it comes to churches, at
least in the Dallas area.
I tell people you can get whatever kind of
church you want, you can get a Jack-in-the-Box
church, you can get a McDonalds church, you
can get a Subway church, you can get Quiznos,
you know, you can get it in any kind of variety
and you also have this individualistic thing
going on.
Is there a difference in how a corporate group
is seen in the cultures that you live in?
In other words, is there a different kind
of mentality about being a part of a group
versus being an individual and how does that
work itself out?
Mikel, let’s start with you.
Mikel Del Rosario: I think especially in the
church there is loyalty not only to your church
but to your youth group, let’s say, or to
your small group, that they’re a part of
everybody’s lives, far more than would be
at work, let’s say, where you’re part
of a department.
With church, that group identity is so important
to them, so much so that in some cases there
is actually some animosity between like other
churches, you know, like one mega church versus
another mega church kind of a thing, and they’re
making some efforts at unity.
But yeah, it’s in a collectivistic, communalistic
culture, there is definitely that loyalty
to the group and your identity is in the group.
Darrell Bock: And Filipinos are structured
that way, are they more corporate, generally
speaking, than –?
Mike Del Rosario: Yes, definitely.
Darrell Bock: So whereas in the United States
you might say well, I choose to be a part
of this youth group, the identity when it
flips is, now if I’m going to make sense
of who I am, I need to be a part of this group,
this is part of what it is to be a person,
it flips in that kind of way.
Now, Europe is kind of an interesting culture
in that regard, it’s kind of a little bit
of a mix.
I’ve lived in Scotland and in Germany, Scotland
for three years and Germany for four, and
it does strike me that Europeans, generally
speaking, do have a bigger corporate dimension
to the way they view things, but there also
is the heavy individualism that has always
fueled what’s going on in Europe because
that’s actually where the individualism
came from that fueled what happened in the
United States.
So does that play itself out at all in Ireland,
the corporate versus individual thing or not?
Shane Angland: Yeah, I think your evangelical
in Ireland is primarily thinking of himself
as part of a community, I really do think
that because you are, in a sense, removing
yourself from a large section of the population
when you do make a stand as an evangelical
Christian.
And so there is no way I think you could survive
without that community, it becomes necessary
for your spiritual life.
It’s not so much as a, I don’t know, a
thing of enjoyment or a thing of reinforcing
yourself.
Darrell Bock: It’s not a consumer choice.
Shane Angland: It’s not a consumer choice,
it’s a matter of survival that you would
seek out community.
If you’re living in the west of Ireland,
I know people that drive for hours to go to
a local evangelical church because they realize
that if they are not doing that they are very
much on their own.
And so it becomes essential to your spiritual
life.
I don’t think you can foresee yourself apart
from that.
Darrell Bock: I think it’s hard for people
to realize that in Christian communities where
there may be one church of choice in a large
area, it’s not – it’s a completely different
experience than the church on every corner
where you can pick and choose what kind of
– you have to make it work.
Shane Angland: Right.
Darrell Bock: And differences have to be sorted
out and that kind of thing, because there
is in one sense no other place to go.
And so that does something to the dynamic
of what happens in the community, it seems
to me.
Shane Angland: Mm-hmm, yeah, I think so.
I think it reinforces unity.
Like you said, I think people are more inclined
to work through issues rather than go to the
church down the street because there isn’t
one.
Darrell Bock: Yeah, and I suspect there – for
some people listening to us who have grown
up in American Christianity, particularly
if they’ve grown up in the south where you
do have all those choices and all those options,
to think about a Christianity that functions
that way would be to think of it in a completely
different kind of context to operate in, very,
very different than what they’re used to.
Cesar, what do you think?
Cesar Restrepo: Yeah, Latin Americans are
very much family-oriented and community-oriented,
so most people would live most of their lives
in the same city, there’s not that high
mobility as there is here in the U.S.
So for someone to go from the Catholic church
to a Protestant church, that’s a really
big change because you won’t be praised
for that, you will be probably ridiculed and
so Christians there tend to be very much genuine
Christians, there are not many nominal Christians
over there.
So they are sometimes rejected by their families
and so it’s a big deal to be a Christian.
Darrell Bock: Now, that’s another dimension
of this that is, if I can say context dependent,
it seems to me.
I have a very close friend who is Guatemalan,
who teaches school at Denver, in fact we’re
going to have him on a podcast related to
the discussion on immigration that we’re
going to be doing, and he also came out of
a Catholic background, his parents were Catholic
and he became a Protestant, and the tension
between the Catholic church and the Protestants
in Latin America is a completely different
kind of experience than what you get sometimes
in Europe.
And so maybe that’s another part of the
discussion we ought to have.
What is it like to move from the Catholic
church to Protestant church in Latin America?
Cesar Restrepo: Well, first of all, you don’t
have many buildings, you have to meet in houses,
so that’s the first thing, you really don’t
have a place to meet.
So first of all, finding a church is hard,
it’s not as easy as here in Dallas.
Second, your family will not understand what
you’re doing, why are you doing, this, you
were baptized Catholic, why are you doing
this.
And in your work you will be ridiculed because
most evangelicals are on the lower classes,
so mostly uneducated, so you’ll be kind
of labeled as an uneducated person.
On the other hand, people like to have evangelicals
work for them because they know they are honest
people.
So they have this double standard.
Darrell Bock: Double approach to the question,
interesting.
Now, how about in Ireland in relationship
to the Catholics?
Now, again, I’m going to reflect a little
bit about our experience, but when we were
in Scotland and we were in Germany both, with
so many – with such a pervasive secular
culture, if I can say it that way, the very
fact that Catholics believed in God, talked
about Jesus, that kind of thing made a difference.
And at least where I was you didn’t sense
the degree of tension that my Latin American
friend felt in Protestants and Catholics going
on in Latin America.
Was that true in Ireland as well?
Shane Angland: It is true now.
I mean it was different 40 years ago.
Darrell Bock: Yeah, sure, I know the history.
Shane Angland: Yeah, now it’s completely
different.
I mean – and I think it is secularism, it’s
completely – people are not really concerned
about the theological differences between
denominations, that’s largely irrelevant
for most Irish people.
They just know that you are an evangelical
and that might be perceived as strange but
they’re not antagonistic towards you generally
speaking.
They just see it as something that you’re
into or, you know, that’s just your choice,
but they’re not going to be perceiving you
as a threat or as someone to persecute.
Darrell Bock: Now, evangelicals are – I
take it from listening to you that evangelicals
are such a minority in Ireland that they’re
ability to coalesce say around social issues
with Catholics, that wouldn’t – that’s
fairly negligible as a factor, is that true?
Shane Angland: Yeah.
I mean the 2011 census, the people that returned
the census form as evangelical were .09 percent
of the population.
Darrell Bock: Wow.
Shane Angland: I mean so you can’t really
say that we’re to the forefront of social
issues because it’s tiny.
I mean there are very many people in the Republic
of Ireland that probably don’t know any
evangelical Christians or – they probably
don’t have any evangelical Christian friends.
That’s different in other parts of the country
but it is a tiny minority, definitely.
Darrell Bock: That’s a staggering number
because that reminds me of stories I’ve
heard about like Christians in Turkey and
places like that where there are only – I
mean I know in Turkey at one point here recently
there were only two people who had the equivalent
of an MDiv degree, ministering in Turkey.
I mean that – so, you know, you could count
– I think at one point it was 200 out of
80 million, okay, which makes your thing look
like a megachurch, but still that’s incredible.
Now, that situation has changed and the church
there is growing, but it’s interesting when
a group is that small what the dynamic is,
and you can see why it would be driven towards
a kind of community.
Shane Angland: Oh yeah.
Darrell Bock: Now, I have no idea because,
as I said, I’ve never been to the Philippines,
what it’s like in the Philippines.
What’s the Catholic-evangelical relationship
like in the Philippines?
Mikel Del Rosario: I think for most people
they see the two as apart from Islam, the
two major religions, seeing them as different
religions.
So much so that for a Protestant who would
come out of a Catholic background, what they
would struggle with and what my dad struggled
with was this feeling that he had somehow
rejected the family tradition or rejected
the family structure.
And there are certain things that everybody
does that you won’t be participating in
as a Protestant.
And so the question then is – you know,
they struggle with did I do the right thing,
I want to follow Jesus but am I going to be
rejected for it and so there is that struggle.
And what my dad would say to his family is
have I gotten further away from God by doing
this, you know, how have I gotten further
away from God by becoming a Protestant.
And so yeah, they’re almost seen as different
religions and there is very little, if any,
working together there.
Darrell Bock: Now, so you all come out of
this kind of mixed bag of backgrounds, with
very different experiences overseas from what
you’re experiencing here.
What combination of values do you hope to
bring to your ministry?
In other words, given the fact that you’ve
got this mixed pedigree, in terms of your
training and experience, what would you hope
to take with you into ministry that is a reflection
of the combination of experiences that you’ve
had, Cesar?
Cesar Restrepo: Well, certainly time management
for me has been a big thing.
One of the first things that my mentor here
told me is you have to do a time management,
you have due dates.
So that’s a big thing, because time over
there is relative, so that would be something
important for me.
And also in terms of my ministry, I would
say the depth of teaching that you get here
at Dallas Seminary is something that it’s
lacking over there.
The teachings over there tend to be very superficial
because, as I said, pastors are not very academically
prepared.
So I think this depth of teaching will be
something I would bring that would be very
helpful.
Darrell Bock: So now when you think about
again–this is kind of like the question
I asked Shane earlier—so when you bring
an element of time management to Latin America,
what in the world is that going to look like?
Cesar Restrepo: Revolutionary, I think.
You would have to adapt and obviously you
wouldn’t be able to do it as well as you
do it here.
Darrell Bock: Just be glad you’re not a
German bringing time management.
Cesar Restrepo: Yes.
I think it would bring some – more efficiency
to my ministry.
Darrell Bock: So that’s what you’ve gained
from it is seeing how it makes you more effective
in some ways?
Cesar Restrepo: Yes.
Darrell Bock: I see.
Shane?
Shane Angland: I don’t know about values
but I mean, like Cesar was saying, the training
and the teaching that I’m being equipped
with, that’s something I really want to
bring back and share with the church and that’s
something that they’re excited that I would
bring back.
But I mean these are things that we – that
Christians all over the world share in common.
I mean every Christian wants to grow in their
theology.
Darrell Bock: Right.
Shane Angland: I mean that’s not something
that I need to instill in my Irish brothers
and sisters, they have a desire and a passion,
but there just isn’t that legacy and that
heritage of evangelical seminaries in Ireland.
And so being here is not so much a different
value that I’m getting, it’s more being
able to fulfill that desire that I’ve had
for many years and something that my church
has encouraged me to pursue.
And so bringing something like teaching back
to the church would not be seen as a revolutionary
thing but a welcome gift, I think.
Darrell Bock: Now, I haven’t asked you this
question but have either of you been back
to your homes since you came here as students?
Cesar Restrepo: Yeah, I go back every two
months, as I practice surgery over there and
yeah, it’s sometimes very shocking when
I go there and when I compare what I’m living
here.
So yeah, and everywhere just – we had a
good standard of living there but the country
in general doesn’t, and when I go to church
I feel that I could be much more useful once
I’ve learned all that I’ve learned here.
I’m in class and I’m blown away by what
I’m learning by such gifted teachers here.
Darrell Bock: Yeah, Shane have you been back?
Shane Angland: I haven’t been back yet but
I’m going to be heading back this summer.
My brother is getting married, so that’ll
be a great family event, so going to spend
some time in England.
He’s getting married in England and I’m
going to spend some time back in Ireland.
So hopefully get to meet my friends and spend
some time at my church, yeah.
Darrell Bock: Yeah, because I do think one
of the hard adjustments that students who
do come here have when they come here and
they’ve been exposed to our culture is going
back and there’s almost a reculturalization.
Now, the fact that you’ve been able to go
back regularly and stay in touch with your
culture while you’ve been here is probably
going to be terrifically helpful to you.
Cesar Restrepo: Yes.
Darrell Bock: So, Mikel, I know you live here
and you don’t – and you were a missionary
for a while in the Philippines and you’ve
been back here in the States for some time
or –?
Mikel Del Rosario: Yes.
Darrell Bock: Now, do you have any family
still in the Philippines?
Mikel Del Rosario: Yeah, my parents are there
and all my brothers.
Darrell Bock: I see.
So do you ever go back?
Mikel Del Rosario: I have not been back since
2006, when we were missionaries.
Darrell Bock: Oh wow.
So you’ve been away for some time.
Yeah.
Now, you did do the reentry thing, where you
had grown up in your cultural context, you’d
come to the States and you’d gone back,
and you went back in ministry so what was
that like?
Did that require some adjustments or –?
Mikel Del Rosario: Oh yeah, definitely.
One thing that was very different was being
an adult versus being a kid, because when
you’re a kid if there’s a problem it’s
your parent’s problem, you just put on your
Walkman and press play and, you know, listen
to your cassettes, those cassettes.
But now as an adult you have to deal with
all of life as an adult there.
When we were doing our worldview training
one of the things that I was able to take
back with me from the apologetics training
that I got at Biola was really looking at
worldview and seeing how in this city we had
just a backdrop of religious pluralism, where
there is people involved in everything, there’s
Chinese immigrants who are practicing Chinese
traditional religions.
There are people who are both – you say
you’re a businessperson and you’re opening
a new building, you may have a priest come
bless it, you may have a feng shui master
come in later on, and all along down the line.
Darrell Bock: What was that you said?
Mikel Del Rosario: A feng shui master.
Darrell Bock: A feng shui master, what is
that?
Mikel Del Rosario: It’s a Chinese geomancy.
It’s to make sure that everything is oriented
just so so that positive energy can be manipulated
and flow through the place.
Darrell Bock: Oh wow, okay.
Mikel Del Rosario: And so there is a lot of
this “I’ll take whatever from whoever,”
right.
And that’s part of the animistic background
as well as, you know, if I’m going to get
some prosperity then it really doesn’t matter
who it comes from, I’ll just cover all my
bases.
Darrell Bock: I see.
Mikel Del Rosario: So they would say – and
that’s one thing that Christians struggle
with, actually.
Evangelicals will say in my business we’re
not going to do that, but then their employees
might say well, what do we have to lose, why
not.
So taking back some of those kind of worldview
training kinds of things was very helpful
to them, it was helpful to me also to see
where is the person coming from when they
ask such a question, what are the presuppositions
that they’re bringing to the table.
So, also theological training, there is sometimes
some pushback against that in the Philippines.
As one Philippian author put it, talking about
American missionaries, let them take the Bible
apart and put it back together again like
Legos, we’re going to dance and make art.
So there was this kind of distinction between
doing an academic scholarly study of the text
and just living “real life.”
So being able to bridge that gap and show
how we can love God with everything that we
are, with our mind, with our intellect, our
emotions and everything that we are.
Darrell Bock: So are there syncretistic problems
in Venezuela?
I know there are in Guatemala, so that’s
what – he mentioned the Philippines made
me think about that.
Cesar Restrepo: Yes.
Now we’ve become very close to Cuba and
many of the indigenous religions from Cuba
have come to Venezuela, so there’s a lot
of spiritism and Catholic people, they don’t
see anything wrong with practicing that and
belonging to the Catholic church.
So there is a lot of syncretism there.
Darrell Bock: See now that’s another thing
that’s interesting that we haven’t had
time to discuss, I’m not sure if we still
do, but there are issues that take place in
the context that you all live in that don’t
show up or tend not to show up here.
If I were to raise that category what types
of things do you find yourself facing as a
Christian, just thinking about it automatically
in some cases, that tends not to be on the
radar screen of issues that you would find
if you were operating in the churches that
you’re now participating in?
And probably the least radical difference,
although I think there would be some, would
be what you might face in Ireland, but do
you think – does anything leap to mind about
–?
Shane Angland: Well, before I came to DTS
I was working in Cork City, just in a secular
job, and I was surprised that one thing I
had to defend over and over again was the
historical lineage of evangelicalism, in a
sense, because people had a perception that
it’s American fundamentalism and it’s
alien to our culture.
And so we’ve been Christians since the fifth
century, you know, why this modern American
thing?
And so being able to try to explain what are
the theological and historical difference
between Roman Catholicism and evangelical
Christians.
So I think you do have to bring in the historical
element into that.
And particularly in Ireland where we have
had a lot of let’s say bad examples of sectarian
conflict, and so people have a perception
of Protestantism as a political entity rather
than the theological reasons behind it because
pretty much all they have seen in Irish history
is the political arm of the Protestant church.
Darrell Bock: Yeah, that’s interesting.
I hadn’t thought of that.
I mean I’ve lived in the UK, as I’ve said,
I’ve been in Scotland and I watched the
Northern Ireland thing unfold from Scotland.
In fact, I had never been in a society that
had been so impacted by sectarian conflict
as when I was living in Scotland.
I was there as a student in the late ‘70s
and early ‘80s and as a doctoral student,
and what was interesting is, is that it was
so sectarian that even the sports teams, the
soccer teams were structured – there was
– in Scotland there was a Catholic soccer
team, Celtic, and there was a Protestant soccer
team, Rangers, and they had only – how can
I say, desectarianized, I don’t know if
that’s a word, but they only crossed religious
boundaries within five years of my coming
over there, and that just seems so foreign
to me, to – and the northern Ireland politics
as big when I was in Scotland.
And so living in a sectarian context where
you see that kind of tension between Christian
groups, I mean as anyone knows who knows the
history, it was an incredibly violent period
in history.
Those kind – that kind of religious political
mix, generally speaking, we don’t find here,
but that’s changed because it’s secularism
now.
Shane Angland: Yeah, it has radically changed,
and like the Republic of Ireland where I’m
from, there isn’t any sectarian conflict
because one side dominated, right.
I mean from the modern period on.
So it’s not really that there’s two groups
fighting.
But like you said, I think, yeah, nominalism
is really sort of the worldview that’s at
work in Ireland as a whole, which is predominantly
Roman Catholic, 84 percent of the people say
they’re Roman Catholic.
The Catholic church did a survey in 2010 where
the surveyed Irish Roman Catholics, and 10
percent said they didn’t believe in God.
So I mean there’s still a large section
of the population that identify themselves
as Roman Catholic but are effectively atheists.
And so that is a huge thing, much more than
sectarianism.
I think that’s the real battleground, is
impacting people that are comfortably Christian
in a very cultural setting but don’t really
have a relationship with Jesus and some don’t
even believe in God.
Darrell Bock: Yeah.
So that’s – and really that, in many ways,
is the same cultural conversation that’s
starting to emerge in parts of the United
States, where it’s becoming so secularized
that your Christian tag is more a cultural
tag than it is a substantive tag.
Cesar, I imagine, though, in Latin America
that there are issues that come up as a matter
of course that don’t hit the radar screen
here, what would those be?
Cesar Restrepo: Especially, the spiritual
there is very real.
When I go to Venezuela it’s just like evil
is present from the corruption in the government
there and it’s widespread, but also Catholics,
they will go to have their palm read, they’ll
go to horoscopes, so – you’ll see that
on TV everywhere.
So the spiritual is very real to people.
Darrell Bock: So it’s almost the exact opposite
of what’s going on in Europe.
Cesar Restrepo: Yes, right, exact opposite.
So I think that the battle will be more on
a spiritual level.
Darrell Bock: And the other thing that now
I’m sharing out of my own experience in
Guatemala because this is one of the things
that we did – well, I used to teach a class
in which we took students from Dallas and
my friend took students from Denver Seminary,
and we would combine them with the Latin American
students down.
And we would do hermeneutics in the Bible
but we would do it in a different context
and the thing that we would ask our students
to do is what strikes you here about reading
the Bible and what you would have to deal
with that you wouldn’t have to deal with
if you were in the States, how does being
here make you read the Bible differently,
just simply being here.
And the seminary in Guatemala was located
literally five blocks from the garbage dump
in Guatemala City, that literally every – we
would do this class every two years, so you
could – as I would go down I could watch
it move across this valley.
At one point it was approaching us and one
year it was with us and the next year it had
gone beyond us.
And so – that’s the way garbage is.
So you’re watching this happen.
But the thing that our students consistently
said about, at least many parts of Latin America
and I think you alluded to this, is the direct
engagement with intense poverty that you often
see in Latin America.
And you said, many of the Christians who are
there do come out of the lower classes, so
that if you’re a pastor ministering in that
context you are encountering core life choices
that you normally don’t see in many churches
here in the States, is that fair?
Cesar Restrepo: It is very fair, yes.
And this – the wealth and the poverty coexist,
they’re side by side.
Darrell Bock: In fact, that’s one of the
things we used to do in Guatemala, we would
take students into the poorest parts of Guatemala
City and we could go not ten minutes and you
could be in a part of Guatemala City and you
wouldn’t know you were in Guatemala.
I mean, you know, you would think you were
in Europe or in the States.
So you’d – it did very much exist side
by side.
So a lot of pastoral preparation has to help
people cope with just the core basics of survival
in life, oftentimes, is that true?
Cesar Restrepo: Exactly.
And people sometimes don’t have time to,
like here in the U.S. you have time to reflect
about theological matters, there you are focused
on surviving every day and feeding your kid
every day so you don’t have much time for
theory, you need to practice.
So the gospel there has to have a very practical
side.
Darrell Bock: Is that part of what you think
drives the prosperity theology that goes on?
Cesar Restrepo: Definitely.
Because – they are offering these people
things that are not real, that they’ll become
rich if they start – they call it planting
in the church, like tithing.
So sometimes they give beyond what they are
able to give or they should give and they
are not getting any better by doing that.
So that’s why this prosperity theology is
so successful there.
Darrell Bock: Interesting.
And what about in the Philippines, what do
you see there – what issues do you see there
that you tend not to see here?
Mikel Del Rosario: Well, first I want to say
it’s very similar in the Philippines also
with the poverty and the rise of prosperity
gospel in the Philippines, very similar situation.
One thing that I’ve noticed in the Philippines
that we don’t see here is an extreme, which
is not necessarily a bad thing, is an extreme
commitment to holiness for the leaders.
The leaders are held to a super high standard,
whereas coming back to the United States I
found it would be rare to see church discipline
enacted in a church.
Whereas, in the Philippines, I was in a church
where a leader sent an inappropriate text
message to a woman and that leader was disciplined
and stepped down.
He didn’t even touch her, it was a text.
Darrell Bock: Yeah.
Mikel Del Rosario: And here in the United
States, you know, far worse things than inappropriate
text messages happen and we don’t see church
discipline enacted as much.
So there is a strong emphasis on holiness
there.
Darrell Bock: Do you have any idea where that
comes from at all?
Mikel Del Rosario: I think because teachers
are held to a higher standard, and in a culture
where you have that power distinction between
the laity – they want to be able to look
up to their leaders and say these leaders
are different than me.
Darrell Bock: So it comes with the territory
of how a leader is perceived, to a certain
degree, and so what’s demanded of them.
Mikel Del Rosario: Mm-hmm.
Darrell Bock: Interesting.
Well, I want to thank you all for coming in
and sharing a little bit about your country
and your experience with us.
You know, we’ve talked a little bit about
issues from a kind of global perspective.
Let me have us close to have you each tell
us what’s one thing you think you could
say about cultural engagement in light of
your own background, that you would want to
emphasize to people who are listening in terms
of thinking about how they engage the culture
and whether that has to do with how you do
it as a Christian who might be in a minority
context, which we’re moving towards here
or something else?
What one thing would you each like to say?
Shane Angland: I think it’s almost easier
to engage as a minority because you have to
engage from humility and you have to engage
from a vulnerability in a sense, that you’re
not the dominant group that’s setting the
agenda.
But yeah, I think Irish Christians – Irish
evangelical Christians, I think they do a
pretty good job of engaging the culture around
them.
They have moved past a stage that maybe earlier
they had inclination to completely cut themselves
off from those things that were formerly part
of their life before conversion, so even sports
or anything like that, but I think they’ve
largely moved beyond that and they are – they
see themselves as being able to engage with
their fellow townspeople or their communities.
But you just – you have to engage from a
position of humility because you are a minority
and I think that’s effective and it’s
healthy and I think it’s quite easy, to
be honest.
Darrell Bock: So if I’m reading between
the lines here, that one of the dangers of
having – being a large number, the risk
is that you’ll minister out of a power entitlement
as opposed to out of a context of humility,
is that what you’re seeing?
Shane Angland: Mm-hmm, definitely.
Darrell Bock: Interesting.
Mikel?
Mikel Del Rosario: I think I would say asking
good questions, asking good questions with
the tone of humility.
Recognizing that people come from all kinds
of different backgrounds and they may have
religious backgrounds that you don’t know
about.
They may appear to be, such as in the Philippines,
one might appear to be a theist, a Christian
and really have an animistic worldview underneath
all this, where when they say God they may
think of a faraway God that you can’t touch,
talk to, and intermediaries are spirits.
Darrell Bock: Yeah, some people here might
not have a clue what you’re talking about
when you say animism.
What would that involve?
Mikel Del Rosario: In the Philippines, we
have a specific forum called animism which
means that Filipinos would view God as a faraway
deity who doesn’t really help you, is too
busy to appeal to, so instead you appeal to
intermediary spirits, be they spirits of animals,
nature spirits or your own dead relatives.
Now, Roman Catholic tradition, when that came
to the Philippines, saints had replaced those
intermediate states between God and human
beings so that people would appeal to specific
saints for specific things that they need.
Darrell Bock: So there is an element of ancestor
connection – because you do find this very
much in other places, in Asia, in fact it’s
one of the big issues that Christians face
once they become a Christian in relationship
to their families, is how do I deal with this
element of family expectations, and that goes
on in the Philippines.
Now, that’s an issue that we don’t think
about very much here in the States.
Mikel Del Rosario: Yeah.
So we have – you know, more and more immigrants
coming to the United States.
I was in southern California, we worked with
the Vietnamese immigrants and knowing that
everybody comes from a certain cultural background,
and Christians struggle with different things.
And we talked about sacrificing food to idols
in Bible study and youth group, it was not
a metaphorical thing and they were literally
– you know, I go to my friend’s house,
they sacrifice the food to the ancestors,
now what do I do.
So very real things like that.
So to find out where the audience that you’re
working with is coming from and then engage
them, understanding where they are coming
from and the struggles they have.
Darrell Bock: And Cesar, what would you say?
Cesar Restrepo: Well, I would encourage the
church – people in the church in America
to be more open, especially to foreigners,
since there are so many foreigners coming
to this country.
As an example, my wife is in a small group
and she felt that the ladies there, they would
share very superficial things and next thing
you know one of them is just getting a divorce.
So people are not opening up their problems
in this context, so I would encourage them
to open up in their small groups to really
share from a deeper level, as we do in South
America.
Being a minority you depend on your new family
of Christians, so everybody really knows how
you’re doing.
When you ask people how are you doing, you
really mean it, you really want to know how
they’re doing.
So to not be so superficial here.
Darrell Bock: Interesting.
Well, again, I thank you for coming in and
taking the time to do this.
I hope this has been – and it’s been interesting
for me to hear stories from three countries,
some of which I’ve known sort of up close
and then others very much from a distance,
and hear the different kinds of Christian
experiences and what that means for you and
your own experience as you think about engagement
and think about your own Christian development.
And I think sometimes it is helpful for us
to kind of step outside our own box and hear
from people who have lived in this fishbowl
all their life and see – and they say, oh,
so that’s what the aquarium looks like.
So I very much appreciate it.
And we thank you all for coming to The Table
again and look forward to seeing you again
next time.
