

### Spirit Life:

### The Sleep State

### By

### Jesus (AJ Miller) &

### Mary Magdalene (Mary Luck)

### Published by

### Divine Truth, Australia at Smashwords

http://www.divinetruth.com/

Copyright 2014 Divine Truth

Smashwords Edition, License Notes

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### This ebook is a transcript of a seminar delivered on 6th November 2011 by AJ Miller (who claims to be Jesus) and Mary Luck (Mary Magdalene) as part of the Spirit Life series of seminars. In it Jesus describes how we continue to live our lives in the spirit world when we go to sleep, the meaning of our dreams, how our emotional condition dictates the experiences that we have in the sleep state, and Mary gives an example of her own personal experiences.

### Reminder From Jesus & Mary

### Jesus and Mary would like to remind you that any document produced by Divine Truth containing any information from Jesus, Mary or any other person includes only a portion of God's Truth that they have personally discovered.

### It does not and cannot contain the entire of God's Truth since God's Truth is infinite and humankind will forever continue to discover more of God's Truth as we progress in receiving more of God's Love.

### Please remember that due to these limitations information contained within this document may need to be revised in the future.

### Many other ebooks have been published by Divine Truth, including ebooks translated into a variety of different languages.

### Please visit <http://www.Smashwords.com/profile/view/DivineTruth> or www.divinetruth.com for further information.

### Additional sessions on the subject in this book can be found on www.Smashwords.com/profile/view/DivineTruth

### For more information go to:

Divine Truth (www.divinetruth.com)

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Table of Contents

### The Sleep State: Part 1

1. Introduction

2. What happens when we fall asleep

2.1. The soul and spirit body leave the physical body

2.2. Where the spirit body goes in the sleep state is dependent upon the soul's condition

2.3. Where we go in the sleep state depends on emotions we are experiencing at the time

2.4. We sleep because our physical body needs rest

2.4.1. Sleep deprivation during manic depression results from spirit over-cloaking

3. It is possible to over-cloak someone else on Earth during the sleep state

3.1. An example of a lady over-cloaking another person in her sleep state

3.2. We are fully conscious of our actions in our sleep state

3.2.1. Déjà vu results from already visiting a place in the sleep state

3.3. Many people have heard AJ present Divine Truth in the sleep state

4. It is common act out unhealed damaged emotions in the sleep state

4.1. An example of sexual promiscuity in the sleep state

4.2. In the sleep state people's true condition can be easily seen

4.3. An example of a woman enraged with her father

4.4. An example of "alien" encounters

4.5. An example of celibacy and sexual desire

4.6. An example of a man fighting with his father in the sleep state

4.7. Emotions that we wake up with can result from our sleep state experiences

4.8. We can have benevolent, malevolent and mundane experiences in the sleep state

4.8.1. An example of Christian men having sex in the sleep state

4.9. The Law of Attraction works the same in the awake and sleep states

4.10. We are capable of remembering everything in the sleep state, but choose not to

4.11. Interactions with children in the sleep state

4.12. The cause of sleep walking and sleep talking

4.13. Issues can be addressed very rapidly in the sleep state

4.14. We can have positive experiences in the sleep state

4.15. We can damage people more in our sleep state than our awake state

5. The difference between the sleep state and dreaming

5.1. A lady in the audience expresses her doubts to AJ

5.1.1. Spirits influence our interest in discussions

5.2. Repetitive dreams are an indication of suppressed emotions

5.3. Premonitions in dreams are messages from our sleep state

5.4. An example of a man dreaming about moving from location to location and being hunted

5.5. Dreams about interactions with AJ or Mary

5.6. An example of a lady having difficulty getting to sleep

5.7. Snoring is often due to the suppression of emotions

5.8. We can damage others in our sleep state but not in our dreams

6. Audience questions

6.1. Prayers for assistance are only answered when they come from our heart

6.2. An example of a lady who listens to AJ audios to fall asleep and avoid her emotions

6.3. An example of a lady experiencing emotions in the sleep state

6.4. An example of teaching a lady on her deathbed some Divine Truth

6.5. An example of a lady waking up with a song in her mind

7. Closing Words to Part 1

### The Sleep State: Part 2

8. Mary describes her experiences in the sleep state

8.1. The reasons for Mary taking a break from teaching

8.2. Background information about Mary and AJ's relationship

8.3. Mary's discoveries about her sleep state at October-fest in Kentucky

8.4. Background to Mary's personal emotional condition

8.4.1. Issues with integrity

8.4.2. Soulmate issues

8.4.3. Shame issues

8.4.4. Sexuality issues

8.5. Background information about Mary and AJ's relationship continued

9. Audience questions

9.1. Mary's facade is an attempt to escape from her damage

9.2. Mary has a stronger sense of real love because she is reincarnated

9.3. Damage to the soul in the sleep state is the same as damage to the soul in the awake state

10. Mary describes her experiences in the sleep state continued

10.1. Rebelling against feelings of powerlessness, shame and loss

10.1.1. AJ was aware of Mary's actions in her sleep state

10.2. It is possible to work on our emotions in our sleep state and our awake state

10.3. How Mary gained the awareness of what was happening in her sleep state

10.4. Physical sensations associated with remembering and grieving sexual experiences

10.5. Working through sexual shame

10.6. Morality needs to be learnt at the soul level before we behave with integrity

10.7. Qualities we need in order to act with integrity in the sleep and awake states

10.8. Being a strongly independent woman is a form of anger and rebellion towards soulmates and God

11. Developing the soul qualities needed to break down the facade self

11.1. Learning to embrace our damage

11.2. The analogy of a foundation built on stone

12. Mary describes her experiences in the sleep state continued

12.1. AJ's perspective on his relationship with Mary

12.2. Praying for assistance to be loving in the sleep state

12.3. Mary and AJ's interactions in the sleep state

12.4. Setting our intention for truth is the fastest way to discover our facade

12.5. Coming to love but not judge our damaged emotions

12.6. Maintaining wilful ignorance

12.7. Being humble to feelings of injustice

12.8. Resistance to engaging in the Divine Love Path

12.8.1. God created us perfect and able to overcome all sin

13. Closing Words

The Sleep State: Part 1

1. Introduction

Well Mary and I feel we've got a fairly interesting day for you today, if we can put it that way. The subject that we're going to speak of today is a part of our Spirit Life series of talks and this one is called, "The Sleep State".

On Earth not very much is known about the sleep state and in fact almost all people; including people who are spiritualists of some kind in the New Age movement or otherwise, do not really have much knowledge about what actually occurs when you're asleep. And in this discussion we are not talking about the dream state, we are talking about the rest of the time in your sleep state, because they are two separate things.

So firstly what we want to do is clarify to you what the sleep state is and how it begins and ends, and also clarify to you a little bit about the dream state and what that is in between, so that you get a bit of picture between the two. But then we want to talk about your sleep state, and the reason why we want to talk about it is, if you think about it, you have 24 hours in a day and how many of those hours, do you sleep? Let's go 5-10, shall we, on average? The average person is close to 8 hours in terms of that time.

So basically we're looking at a third of your entire life that is spent sleeping and the interesting thing is you're not actually sleeping. That's the interesting thing. We want to describe what's going on when you're asleep, but there's a big portion of your life that you're not sleeping that you actually spend in the spirit world, connected to your spirit body, and there is just a cord, a silver cord, which connects you back to your material body. So let's describe what happens with sleep. [00:03:07.29]

2. What happens when we fall asleep

So here's your physical body, here's your spirit body and here's your half of the soul.

We are comprised of a half soul, a spirit body (SB) and a physical body (PB), which is attached to the spirit body by the silver cord

Now when you're asleep generally, but not always, your physical body goes horizontal, and for some reason I've got this problem where if my physical body is kept vertical I stay awake, no matter what happens and no matter how tired I am. I've actually stayed awake at some points in my life for five days straight. As long as I stay vertical, I'll stay awake, but as soon as I lay down, for myself, I'm generally out pretty much instantly, or very close to instantly; within a few seconds. Now for most people, a lot of people can sleep while they're sitting up and things like that, and I feel jealous of you if that's the case! But it's still the same principle as to what actually occurs whether you're laying down or sitting up. It's just when you go to sleep this is what occurs.

2.1. The soul and spirit body leave the physical body

So when you go to sleep your physical body is generally lying down and the spirit body, as you go to sleep, leaves through the connection. Normally the physical body and the spirit body are over the top of each other, but as you go to sleep there's a connection that happens and your spirit body leaves your material body but remains connected to it via a cord, which is called your silver cord. And you could think of your silver cord as like a wiring harness that connects the physical body robot to the spirit body, and therefore to the soul, because the spirit body is actually connected to the soul. So the soul still is capable of receiving input from the physical body, and this is why you might wake up in the middle of the night having to go to the toilet, because the soul is still capable of knowing what's going on with the physical body and the physical body's needs, but the primary area where it receives data from, if you could think of it like that, is now the spirit body. The spirit body is a robot, if you like, and the soul is the container, which is yourself, and the spirit and physical bodies are just the spiritual and physical ways for the soul to collect data; to collect information; to have its life experience.

So once the spirit body steps out of the physical body, which happens when you go to sleep, the spirit body becomes the main centre through which experiential input is received by the soul. Because that is the case, now the spirit body is capable of having experiences while you're asleep and when I say capable, for all of us it happens automatically. You'll all have many experiences while you're asleep.

2.2. Where the spirit body goes in the sleep state is dependent upon the soul's condition

Now where the spirit body can go in the spirit world is dependent upon the soul's condition. So if the soul is full of lots of very dark emotions and still has a lot of unhealed things to work its way through emotionally in regards to love, then the spirit body can only frequent the first sphere, and usually the lower regions of the first sphere. So in other words it can only frequent the hells.

If a person's soul is in a 1st sphere condition it will only go to the first sphere during the sleep state

But if the soul condition has started to grow in love and actually has got to the point where fear is not dominant anymore in the soul, and things like that, then there's a potential, and you've dealt with different moral issues, there's a potential of you being in the second sphere, and so the soul and the spirit body would frequent the second sphere if that is the case. Now for the majority of people on Earth that is not the case. For the majority of people on Earth we frequent the first sphere of the spirit world mostly.

Now in the first sphere we have literally thousands of planes, if you like, which go right down into the depths of darkness that are so black that you even can't see yourself. In fact you can only have your sensory apparatus by feelings because you can't actually see anybody in the darkest of the locations in the hells. But right up to the top of the first sphere, which is Summerland, you can have an experience that's very, very similar to Earth, and the different things that you experience on Earth are very, very similar to the things you might experience in Summerland at some point. That's the first sphere where most of us frequent in our sleep state. [00:09:11.15]

The fist sphere has many planes within in that vary in love

So we lay down, we go to sleep, our spirit body raises out of our physical body, and sometimes some of you experience that sensation of it happening before it actually happens and you come back to your physical body. Have you ever had that feeling? Where you're going to sleep and you go, "Oh!" in shock almost; where you're going to sleep and then you come back very rapidly. Well that is your spirit body leaving and then coming back very rapidly into your body, and there are reasons why that happens and we will talk about some of those reasons. But most of the time when we go to sleep that generally does not happen. We go to sleep and there is this seamless raising, if you like, of the spirit body out of the physical body and we now are attracted instantly to wherever our soul condition is attracted in the sleep state in the spirit world.

So if I go to sleep and I've got lots of fear in me I'm going to be attracted into a situation in the spirit world that is going to trigger that fear, as soon as I go to sleep. Can you see why some of you don't want to go to sleep? If I've got a soul that's full of anger and rage in my normal state, but I don't admit to myself that I've got that, then I'll be attracted to a place in the spirit world where that anger and rage gets acted out. If I've got a soul that's been suppressed sexually in some way and has different emotions of sexual powerlessness, or a desire for powerfulness sexually, then I'll be attracted to places in the spirit world where I can play that out. These are all in the first sphere; so these are all going to be in the hells somewhere in the first sphere. Can you see why many of us don't want to remember our sleep state? It's because most of us don't want to remember what we're doing in it, to be frank. [00:11:31.12]

Participant: AJ, yesterday when you mentioned what you're going to talk about today... I don't have any memories of my sleep state. Obviously at a soul level I do and I went into fear and got very emotional and started crying but I have no knowledge of my sleep state. [00:11:46.17]

Yep. So the question then becomes why are you so emotional about it, doesn't it?

Participant: Yes.

And we'll answer some of those questions in the discussion today.

Participant: I just wanted to say about yesterday, just thank you so much. You're just an absolute inspiration and you walk the walk, you don't just talk about some stuff and do something else. You're like this ship that's just steadfast. [00:12:19.14]

Thanks, Alex.

Participant: And I just love you heaps.

Thanks.

2.3. Where we go in the sleep state depends on emotions we are experiencing at the time

Participant: Just about the sleep state, I feel like where I go depends on the emotions that I'm in at the time? [00:12:37.21]

Yes, definitely. Definitely, it's very dependent upon a lot of things, which we'll go through in a minute and it's very much related to discussion that I gave yesterday actually, "The Human Soul - The Facade Self". Remember yesterday near the end of the day we listed all of the core fundamental characteristics or traits that we really need to get through our facade.

Remember we mentioned trust in God, faith in God, having personal integrity, courage; those kinds of qualities? Well these kinds of qualities are also essential for you to actually develop in your sleep state. This is why I've put the two discussions together, because I feel that what we learned yesterday is very much related to what we do in our sleep state. What we do in our facade on Earth and what we do in our sleep state are very different to each other because of the facade that we live in on Earth. We need to understand the relationship between our sleep state, what we are doing there, and why different things happen in our sleep state each night.

In the end we want to become fully conscious of everything we're doing. So in other words we can get to the point where you remember your entire sleep state, from the moment of leaving your body to the moment of coming back to it and you remember everything that you did. Now that would be pretty handy, don't you think? It would be handy in a lot of areas as you're going to find out today. So what we want to do is have a bit more openness to the understanding of what goes on when we are asleep. [00:14:22.09]

2.4. We sleep because our physical body needs rest

Participant: With the separation, going into the sleep state is it not so much an automatic thing where your body needs rest but more a desire to actually go into the spirit world?

No, it's a lot to do with the physical body needing rest. Your physical body, as a machine, needs rest. In particular one of the primary reasons why it needs rest is because of our emotional injuries. The less emotional injuries we have, the less rest our material body is going to need because the more you have emotional injuries, the more turmoil is going on in your body. Your body's systems are under complete stress emotionally, and they're also physically under stress, and the only time they get relief from that stress is when you go to sleep. This is also why when you get tired before you go to sleep you often get grumpy, or other types of emotions like that start coming up. That is because the more tired you become; the more difficult it is for you to maintain your facade. [00:15:32.25]

So what happens for the majority of us, we have a lot of difficulty maintaining our facade during our awake state and then of course we get tired, our body is getting depleted, and it is not able to revitalise itself. The spirit body's connection with our body also is incomplete in the sense that all of the energy that the spirit body has can't be passed to the material body to keep it functioning correctly, and so what happens eventually is we desire to go to sleep.

2.4.1. Sleep deprivation during manic depression results from spirit over-cloaking

Now there are certain spiritual things that can happen that interfere with that process. One of those things that can interfere with the process is called manic depression, but it's actually a spirit over-cloaking. In other words a spirit can connect to your body through the silver cord, through the unhealed emotions of your soul. They can connect to your physical body and give your body energy and therefore keep your body awake for longer periods of time. So a person who has manic depression will often, in their manic phase, which is actually their spirit influenced phase, go through a high degree of spiritual activity where spirits are pumping their physical body full of energy because of the role that the spirits wants. The spirits want to use the body as long as it can in that state, to do whatever it wants. Often what it wants is sexual things and other things.

Have you ever seen the TV show called, "United States of Tara"? It gives you a very good illustration of what happens with that sort of manic phase, and a person in that spirit influence phase will actually go into this place where they need very little sleep. The reason why they need very little sleep is because the spirits are pumping them with the energy that they need to stay awake. However there's a toll on the body, so after a while the spirits can no longer maintain the connection with the body doing this, and so what happens is the spirits lose the connection of supplying with body with energy and instantly the body is unable to perform the most menial of tasks because it's so exhausted; and that's what they call the depressive phase of the illness of manic depression. And that is all because of how the body is not being able to be replenished and revitalised during the process of sleep, because in a manic phase for a manic depressed person, sleep is usually only an hour or two a day, and so they're not getting the necessary sleep that their soul condition's emotions demand for their body to replenish. [00:18:24.15]

So our soul condition affects the bodies, in that the soul condition affects how the energy flows and how the revitalising energy flows within both bodies. Now if the soul condition is quite dark and being suppressed and limited, then what happens is the bodies become very tired and exhausted. But usually in our mind we're trying to deny that. But the tireder we get the more difficult it becomes to acknowledge how exhausted we are fighting our emotions. And that's why we can't fight our emotions as well and that's also why we have a tendency to get frustrated, irritated and angry when we get tired. Once you've dealt with those emotions you will not get frustrated, irritated or angry when you get tired, you'll just say, "I'm tired, I need to have a sleep," and away you go! That's the way it would be. [00:19:20.19]

Participant: Is that the same as chronic fatigue?

Chronic fatigue is a completely different medical condition and also completely different spirit influence to what I'm speaking of with manic depression. [00:19:43.01]

3. It is possible to over-cloak someone else on Earth during the sleep state

3.1. An example of a lady over-cloaking another person in her sleep state

Participant: When I was 17 I remember going to sleep and waking up and living a life. I went to a place, I had a home, I had a family, and I had friends. Then I'd go to sleep and I'd wake up, and I'd go to school, go to Uni, did art. I'd go to sleep and I'd wake up and it happened for a couple of weeks and then it got to a point where... [00:20:07.10]

Are you saying during the course of an evening you'd have many sleeps and wakes that you were actually feelings you were having, while you were asleep in your awake state? [00:20:16.10]

Participant: Yeah. So I, in my awake state, I'd go to school and...

In your awake state; so you're awake.

Participant: I'm alive. I'm here.

During the day, on Earth.

Participant: Yes.

And then you went to sleep...

Participant: I went to another house and I had another life. And I had families and friends and I interacted, I did things and then I'd go to sleep in that state.

So you'd go to sleep there.

Participant: Yeah and I'd wake up in day state again.

You'd wake up in this state?

Participant: Yes.

Okay.

Participant: And I did that for a couple of weeks. When I'd go to sleep physically, like now, it got better; my other state was better, so I'd look forward to going to sleep. But then it got to a point where I started feeling I was going crazy because I actually couldn't tell the difference anymore. And that moment, when I said, "Am I going crazy?" it stopped instantly and I couldn't do it anymore. It was a really strange experience, quite frightening actually. [00:21:15.03]

When you were awake but you were in a sleep state, did it feel like you were on Earth still in another location? [00:21:25.13]

Participant: Yeah. It was real. It was a full life, and there weren't any other dreams. [00:21:40.14]

You have no idea what's caused this?

Participant: No.

It's pretty obvious.

Participant: Sorry?

It's very obvious.

Participant: I didn't want to be in my physical state?

No.

Participant: No? You mean I was in my spirit body in a dream state?

No.

Participant: No? I don't know!

Does anybody know? It's really, really obvious, but nobody knows. Interesting, Mary knows. You over-cloaked another person on Earth when you went to sleep. [00:22:12.23]

Participant: Oh wow!

And you lived over-cloaking her life.

Participant: Wow.

And then when you woke up, you were back to your life.

Participant: Yeah because in my dream state, if say I was doing an artwork or something I'd wake up here, and then when I went back I went back to that same place. [00:22:31.13]

You preferred her life.

Participant: Wow.

Yep. Everyone's a bit shocked about that! Yeah you can over-cloak another person just like spirits over-cloak you while you're in your sleep state. They do it you, and you can do it to them. [00:22:55.19]

Participant: Oh God.

And many of you do this by the way, believe it or not. Do you think it's very fair? No, but it does happen. So this is something to be aware of. This is one of the things we want to discuss today. [00:23:13.08]

Participant: So does that mean that some of the spirits that I hear about could be people from Europe or wherever visiting us?

Definitely.

Participant: Oh wow!

Definitely. Yes. The majority of people in fact do not like to go to sleep and go to their own place in the spirit world, so what the majority of people finish up doing is they finish up over-cloaking or haunting, you could say, people on Earth. And they remain connected to the Earth while they're asleep, just in another location. It makes life pretty complicated, doesn't it? But we all do it for an emotional reason, you see. This is what we want to get at; what we deny. [00:24:09.08]

3.2. We are fully conscious of our actions in our sleep state

Participant: Does your spirit body-mind have any control in your sleep state?

It has all control.

Participant: So you're conscious what you're doing.

You're totally conscious of what you're doing.

Participant: It's not just emotions playing out.

Certainly its emotions playing out, but you are totally conscious of what you're doing. This is why most of you don't want to remember your sleep state - because you're doing things that are not very loving to other people and you don't want to remember. So what we do is, what we do with everything we don't want to remember, and what do we do with that? We just block it all out. We just go, "Nah, that can't happen". And go on with our life. Isn't that we do, generally? [00:24:52.27]

3.2.1. Déjà vu results from already visiting a place in the sleep state

Participant: So is this what déja vu or having a feeling of being there before, going to some place that you physically haven't been there before, and you remember, that's what all this about; you go travelling in your sleep state? [00:25:05.19]

You've definitely been there before, just in your spirit body most of the time. Definitely. [00:25:18.21]

Participant: When we're awake and we don't want to know about something we just block it out, is it the same process then that you just have to start having a desire to know and start feeling through the emotions that actually block you from knowing?

Yes.

Participant: Okay.

We'll talk about that later. Mary's got some lovely examples to give you later about that.

Participant: That means we're continuing to degrade our soul condition? [00:25:43.18]

Yes, many are continuing to degrade their soul condition in their sleep state while they think they're improving it in their awake state. It's very true.

Participant: So for the person, who's been over-cloaked, would they act differently and, since you're over-cloaking them, that person would be thinking differently and acting differently to their family and probably people would say, "What's wrong with him today? He's like someone else"? [00:26:19.13]

Totally but for many of us it's been happening for such a long time that they just think it's a normal part of your personality that's not actually you.

Participant: They might even be called schizophrenic or something like that?

That's correct. Yep, often it's called an illness of some kind, but for many it's not even noticeable, because there is a sympathetic attraction between the person who is awake and the person who's in the sleep state over-cloaking the person who's awake, and as a result sometimes the people around them know that something's different, that they're connected or something's different, but they don't really know what's up. And, you know what it's like, over a period of time you just accept it, don't you? You just accept that's what it's like. So, there's nothing else to do. [00:27:10.28]

Participant: So AJ does that mean that I could now be somebody else listening to you and it's not really me that listening to you? And I'm not really interested in listening to you? [00:27:20.04]

It's a possibility but that's not the case for yourself right now. But it certainly is the case for some others in the audience right now. [00:27:28.27]

Participant: My heart's just beating ten to the dozen over that thought.

Yeah. It's amazing really, isn't it?

Participant: If you meet somebody and you think you know that person, might you have over-cloaked that person in the sleep state?

You've obviously had something to do with that person in your sleep state. There are all sorts of things you could of had to do with them. You could have just had a chat with them. You could have just met up with them somehow and then planned a meeting in your awake state. There are all sorts of things you can do, some of which are malevolent and some of which are benevolent and some of which are in the grey area in between those two states. So there are a lot of things that happen in your sleep state. [00:28:16.00]

3.3. Many people have heard AJ present Divine Truth in the sleep state

Participant: I remember when you gave your first talk on secrets of the universe almost 4 years ago and a lady in the audience said, "I can't explain it, but I feel like I've met you before and I know you" and you said, "Oh, we've met in the sleep state." [00:28:47.26]

Yep.

Participant: And then later on I was asking you about why I seem to be so passionately interested in truth and you answered that a lot of the information that you had presented to us in the talks over the years had already been presented to us in the sleep state. [00:29:12.13]

That's correct.

Participant: I just asked those questions to kind of lift the mood a little bit because it seemed like we were going a bit heavy.

Why do you want to change the mood? It needs to be.

Participant: It's all doom and gloom.

No we need to be.

4. It is common act out unhealed damaged emotions in the sleep state

See, this is a problem we face, Pete, is we need to come face to face with the truth. And the majority of us, when it comes to our sleep state experience, never come face to face with the truth while we're alive. And as a result of that, when we pass over, we might have worked through a lot of emotions while we're alive, but you'll actually find that you've yet to work through a third of all of your emotions at least and on top of that that your soul condition may not have changed very much because of what you're choosing to do in your sleep state. So this is why it's such an important discussion to know your whole life, not just to ignore part of your life.

Now for yourself, Pete, you do wish to ignore what's going on in your sleep state quite a lot and to be frank, so do the majority of people wish to ignore it. This is why we can't remember it but it's also because there are a lot of things going on in our sleep state where we act out the addictions that we continue to have that we're no longer acting out in our awake state, and this is a problem that we face while we have the emotion in us that drives the action; we will actually act out those emotions in the sleep state whether we think we're doing it in the awake state or not. [00:30:47.04]

Participant: What would be an example?

4.1. An example of sexual promiscuity in the sleep state

Let's say, in my awake state, I've in the past had a desire to go to prostitutes in order to have sexual fulfilment. Let's say I learn the Divine Truth in that process, and then I decide, "Well, no, that's not the moral thing to do, it's not the right thing to do," but it's only an intellectual decision. I've now decided to not involve myself with sexual immorality on Earth.

However because I still retain the emotion, and often it can be all sorts of emotions that drive a desire for sexual interaction with a woman, a lot of times it's to do with, " I want the woman to make me feel good about myself. I want the woman to make me feel sexually good about myself. I want the woman to make me feel like I'm a powerful man," or whatever it is. Now if that emotion doesn't get dealt with, as soon as I go to sleep I'll be having sex with all different partners all the way through the night. Now that continues to degrade my condition even though in my awake state I am completely unaware that this is what I'm doing in my sleep state, because I wish to be unaware, but also it's the unhealed emotion that continues to drive the action.

So this is why it's very important to understand. The key is to not judge it. One of the reasons we get heavy is because we're coming face to face with a primary truth and we're going, "Shit!" There's no other way I can say it politely enough! "What am I doing?" and this is an excellent question to ask ourselves. "What am I doing in this sleep state? Is what I'm doing in the sleep state supporting my soul's growth, or is it because I'm so in my facade in the awake state that I believe I'm doing well and then as soon as I go to sleep I start acting out all my damaged emotions that I'm denying in my awake state?"

4.2. In the sleep state people's true condition can be easily seen

Because what happens is this, I need to explain a bit more about it before we answer some more questions. Remember we drew the diagram yesterday of the three sets of selves? You've got your real self, and then you've got your damaged self and then you've got your facade self.

Our real self is surrounded by a our damaged self and our facade self

Now in your wake state in particular you are dedicated to your facade. By the way, many of you in your sleep state are also quite dedicated to your facade. However there's a difference between the two states and that is your facade in the awake state cannot generally be seen by somebody at a physical level. So in other words, they can't look at your body and go, "Wow you're in this facade, you're in this facade, you're in this facade, you have got this damage emotion, and you've got this damaged emotion." It's a rare person who can do that. All of you will be able to do that at some point in the future, and some of you are already starting to develop that ability, but unfortunately for many of you that's spirit influenced and not your own ability.

When you have your own ability you will not need to connect to a spirit, you'll be able to feel the complete person, their soul condition, their damage and their facade. But the majority of us can't do that. So what we do is, we look at the person as they are, and we go, "That's Di," or, "That's Alan". And so you look at the person and you then think you know them, but you're just seeing is the facade. Physically it's also the physical body, which is also a facade for the soul if you like, but from an emotional perspective you're seeing what they present to you; what they're attempting to present to you. Now because of that you can't actually see and look at somebody's body and go, "Wow." If you could see their spirit body, you could see their true condition, but the majority cannot see the spirit body of a person until they go to sleep. [00:35:00.05]

As soon as you go to sleep you can now see the spirit body of the person, so you can actually see what their real condition is. Every one of you when you go to sleep knows the real condition of every other one of you here in the audience that you've caught up with or met in your sleep state, and you can see it in their body. Now because of that, it's a lot harder to maintain the facade. Now because it's a lot harder to maintain the facade, there's a higher likelihood of you living in the sleep state in your damaged emotions; living in the denial of them rather than trying to present the facade like we do on Earth; you actually live in the denial of the damaged emotions.

So if the damaged emotion on Earth is that I still have all these sexual issues with women that I'm playing out when I'm in my sleep state, then there's a high likelihood that I'll be sexually engaging with many different women over the course of my night. In other words I'll basically be sleeping with women all night. And then I'll wake up in the morning, can't remember any of that, and feel that I'm a nice pure person who's got their morals all up to scratch and that I must be quite highly developed, but the reality is that I've just acted out all of my unhealed emotion all night. Now it's very important that we understand that. So I don't see that a problem that everyone get's heavy with that, I feel it's very important that we all come to terms with the fact that these kinds of things are happening in our sleep state. [00:36:49.21]

4.3. An example of a woman enraged with her father

Participant: If I'm enraged with my father and I'm not processing it here, in my sleep state I'm actually going there and raging at him?

Most likely, yes. Unless you're frightened of him and then you might not be. But if you're frightened of him and you're in enraged with him at the same time, then you'll pick a man on Earth who's still alive and still in his awake state, who actually is a timid man who does do what women want, and you'll rage at him instead because you can get away with it, without him getting in a rage with you and acting violently towards you. And that's what we do because we're still in denial, we don't want to feel our own rage, we don't want to feel our own stuff, and we end up acting it out with other people. They're often not the people who have actually done the damage to us unfortunately, because we're afraid of them, so we act it out with other people. [00:37:53.05]

4.4. An example of "alien" encounters

Participant: On another note, with regards to these proclaimed alien abductions when people are asleep by the thousands, all round the world. I investigated with a UFO group about 20 years ago, feeding another addiction of mine, and I'm just wondering what your take is on that? Is it possibly the spirit is another projecting another figure at them, but there is some over-cloaking going on and some nasty stuff?

Well unfortunately a lot of the spirits who do these kinds of things are in a very dark state themselves and their body is so difficult to maintain that they don't actually maintain what you would classify as a humanoid body to look at. So many spirits in the sleep state, or spirits who have already passed that are already very dark, are actually in this state where their bodies look quite alien, and the body will look quite alien based on different emotional injuries that they have. So if they have an emotional injury of the intellect then sometimes the head of their spirit body will be much larger or smaller, depending on what the emotional injury is and so forth. And then as they deal with these emotions the body goes back to a normal body that they would have had when they were around about in their 20s on the Earth, and they look very similar to that.

But unfortunately what happens is that many of them are in a very dark state and every time a person goes to sleep they grab them, torture them, do whatever they like with them and then when they go back awake, everyone thinks they've been abducted by aliens. If you're a willing participant through fear, you can actually be pulled out of your awake state by a spirit and into the sleep state. So you'll actually be driving along in a car and all of a sudden not be there, for example, because you're in the sleep state doing things because of the draw or pull that you have towards that. [00:39:45.15]

Participant: So if I've had a sleep where I've got my rocks off with a beautiful female alien, what's happening there?

It's highly likely that it's a spirit who is engaged sexually with you in your sleep state and there's been some orgasmic experience as a result of that, and there's some kind of attraction going on there between the two of you. [00:40:12.20]

4.5. An example of celibacy and sexual desire

Participant: I've met some friends who have proclaimed to be celibate and they don't seem to have a spiritual faith as to why they've chosen to do that. Could they be these people that are getting their rocks off at night while they're asleep so they don't need any action during the day?

It's possible but it's also the opposite is possible where they get over-cloaked by men who have been monks in their life or whatever else, and they're trying to force celibacy upon them. So it's not their actual personal choice but rather it's a spirit over-cloaking them in their awake state and causing them to be celibate. And in fact because of the openness of different areas of our body energetically some spirits even go to the extent where they can detune the sexual organs and their responses. So if you're a spirit, and you have a desire to, and the injury, and the person on the Earth has an injury in that regard, you can actually make the person almost be completely detuned from any sexual desire at all. [00:41:14.21]

Most of us have no idea how much spirit influence we're under. I keep saying this to you! You still don't understand yet, but you will get there.

4.6. An example of a man fighting with his father in the sleep state

Participant: A few weeks ago I had a pretty vivid dream with my father and we were actually wrestling with each other, but I had a real strong feeling he was actually trying to kill me. He was on top of me and he felt like he had some kind of a glassy knife thing and I had one too laying on the bottom. And I felt like he was just about to kill me and cut my throat.

And you woke up?

Participant: Yeah. And but my question is do you actually kill each other, or is it just an emotion? [00:42:09.20]

Well it's impossible to kill somebody in your sleep state and impossible to kill a spirit. So the reality is that it's impossible to kill a spirit while you're in the sleep state. However in your sleep state it is totally possible to kill a person on Earth, and there's a lot of ways you can do it. [00:42:37.26]

Participant: So if my father and I are in both in a sleep state trying to kill each other...?

Then that would indicate how much rage you have towards him in your awake state that you're in denial of.

4.7. Emotions that we wake up with can result from our sleep state experiences

Participant: I'm just wondering in the mornings, I often wake up in fear. Is that the result of what we've done in our sleep state and then therefore if we process that we're processing sleep state experiences?

Yes. We can wake up with a sense of dread, a sense of fear, and all sorts of feelings. Many men wake up with an erection and so forth, and there are all sorts of reasons why these things occur because of what we've been doing in our sleep state.

Participant: So if we keep processing in the mornings we'll be dealing with that?

Yes. What most of us do in the mornings though, when we wake up in a bad way, is we lay in bed trying to get back to sleep again. That doesn't work so we get up and we go for the addictive food; whatever it is that makes us feel safe again. So for some of you that's porridge or some carbohydrate, for some of you like a coffee that you go for every morning, and for some of you it's an activity like get up, go for a jog, clears the cobwebs out, and a lot of these actions are taken because we're attempting to avoid our memory of our experiences in our sleep state. Lots of questions, hey?! [00:44:26.06]

Participant: I have a lot of intense emotional pain through my waking state but also in my sleep state and when I wake up it's very often in extremely intense emotional pain. Can you comment on that?

Whenever we're in pain physically it's always the denial of an emotion rather than the feeling of an emotion. If we wake up in emotional pain we're best in that moment going into that pain rather than trying to get away from it. [00:45:00.13]

Participant: Yeah I do.

Yes. That's good. So as long as you do that you'll find you'll be able to work through a lot of things. Some of the emotional pain is caused by the not wanting to remember what occurred in your own sleep state that particular night and so what I would be doing, I'd be praying about wanting to know, wanting to find out what's actually going on in your sleep state that causes you to wake up in the emotional pain. [00:45:26.13]

Participant: Could it be terrible things I've done to other people?

It can be, yes. It certainly can be. Terrible things you do to other people or terrible things other people have done to you in your sleep state. Usually it's one or other or both that have occurred that cause us to shut down our memory of it, but wake up in the emotional pain of it. [00:45:44.01]

4.8. We can have benevolent, malevolent and mundane experiences in the sleep state

Participant: I've had a very active sleep state for a lot of years. I'm starting to feel from what you're talking about that this is really rather serious, but most recently it feels like spirits come and they chat or show me parts of their life. A recent one was a postman and his mate came in my sleep state to show me the boots that they were wearing while they were delivering their letters and I woke up out of the experience, enjoying their boots, wondering... [00:46:30.07]

What was all that about?

Participant: What was that about? And then moved on to another spirit that came in the next moment who had murdered their daughter. [00:46:43.10]

Their own daughter?

Participant: Yeah their own daughter and they were trapped in that experience and came to show me. And I woke up out of that feeling like I was the daughter. So in one sleeping experience I can have five or six different kinds of spirits at different levels come and show me different aspects of their life. I wake up in the morning; I'm really tired; I've had multiple different emotions.

Can I explain? Tired is always all about denial of emotion. Always! The more we attempt to deny emotion, the tireder we become. So if we're waking up in the morning tired, then there's a lot of emotion that we're denying during our awake state and our sleep state. That's the first thing to remember.

Secondly many of your experiences are the result of different Laws of Attraction. So some of those experiences, like I've said, will be benevolent, some will be what you would call just a strange experience where you look at somebody's boots, and other ones will be malevolent where you've taken actions that are based on some unhealed soul condition within yourself that has caused damage to others while you were in your sleep state.

Now with regard to the boots one, a lot of that is also about denial in the sense that many of you still want to engage what you classify as normal conversations. Have you noticed that? Like you go see a friend or a mate or whatever else and before you know it you're talking about firstly the weather generally and then you start talking about the car and then you start talking about all these other things, and what I'd call distractive conversations. In other words, conversations that primarily have the role of distracting you and them from how they feel and how you feel. We have a lot of those conversations in our awake state and we have a lot of those in our sleep state too and you'll remember some of them. You'll wake up going, "What was all that about? What was I talking to that person about?" you know, the car that they just purchased or whatever.

4.8.1. An example of Christian men having sex in the sleep state

The other types of events are more driven by the unhealed damaged emotions. So in our sleep state we still do attempt to maintain some sort of facade, but the facade cannot be covered over from anybody else seeing it. So everybody sees it and so what we finish up doing is associating with the people who accept the facade. So in your awake state, let's say your facade is that I'm an upright moral citizen of the world (many Christian religious men are like this). That's their facade in their awake state. In the sleep state the reality is many of them have these sexual thoughts going through their mind constantly about who they'd like to have sex with. They call that the torture of their own soul in their awake state and they justify that Jesus' blood has come and saved them from all that. Then they go to sleep and they finish up having sexual exploits throughout their sleep state. However usually it's in harmony with other men of a similar nature who also do the similar thing and so therefore do not condemn them for such actions. In other words many of these Christian men for example who are in this state are actually having sex with other partners in their sleep state but generally associating with other men who do the same thing in their sleep state and so therefore they don't get criticised for such actions. They don't get judged for them. They're all accepting it and the reason why we all accept it is, "Well you've got the same injury as me. Yeah, no worries. And are we addicted to it? Yes, so let's go and do something about it." And we don't condemn each other for it. This happens very frequently. [00:51:15.25]

Participant: My other question is about childhood experience and learning to be out of your body, which is the case with terror.

Yes, terror will usually cause you to want to go out of your body but my suggestion has been fairly consistent with you Jen and that is you want to do everything that keeps you in your body. Do you remember when you went down to Kyabra last week or the week before, you were very frightened of planting some trees because you needed to use your body to do so. So it was an activity that you had to be engaged in your body to actually perform. And you thought before you began that activity, that your body wouldn't cope with it, you wouldn't like it, and all those kind of things. And then when you did it you found yourself quite connected with the whole process, a very different experience than what you expected. Well what has been happening a lot in your awake state, is that you have had a tendency to want to be out of your body quite frequently because getting out of your body causes you to be disconnected from its size, its shape all the things that are going on in terms of pain inside of it as well. It causes you to be able to disconnect from that or detune from that as well. So there is tendency then to go out of body as a justification of, "It's too much in the body so I'm going to get out of it for a while and have a rest for a while. I am going to go out and have a rest from my body, and be able to enjoy myself that way by detuning from the emotions and therefore the physical pain that is in the body". My suggestion is to go in the opposite direction instead in the awake state and that is only do things for a while that are physical in nature. So during the day do things like walking, planting plants, all things that causes your physical body to become tired and also cause you to stay in it while you are doing those things. And the longer you maintain a connection with your physical body; there is a greater likelihood of you feeling your emotions in the awake state

4.9. The Law of Attraction works the same in the awake and sleep states

Participant: My question is where is our individuality? That is the question I've been asking God for the last few months, especially when I came to a shed talk and we heard that we are sometimes processing other spirit's emotions. My despondency started there and it's just really gone at a deeper level.

Down from that time?

Participant: Today.

Now it's going down even further?

Participant: Today... where is our individuality? That's the question.

You remember that none of these things can happen without the Law of Attraction. This is one thing that many of us need to understand still. The Law of Attraction is perfect in its operation. Everything that's happening to me in my awake and sleep state is perfectly happening to me because of something that's unhealed within myself, or something that's healed within myself, because the Law of Attraction operates perfectly in a positive direction as well as a negative one.

Remember I said a long time ago when I gave a talk about the Law of Attraction, and I said, "It is God's messenger of truth to you." This is something the majority of us still don't really understand. We're seeing the Law of Attraction as a very harmful persecuting type thing rather than seeing the Law of Attraction as God's Messenger of Truth to us. Now, if in my sleep state I'm getting up to all sorts of things it's best for me to know them, because then I know what my Law of Attraction is bringing me in my sleep state, and therefore I know what my condition is. It's better for me to know them than not. You don't want to know them and that's the difference.

4.10. We are capable of remembering everything in the sleep state, but choose not to

You see remember yesterday when we talked about the facade in the talk "The Human Soul - The Facade Self", the facade is all about not wanting to know the damage. You see the majority of us do this, judge the damage so much that we then finish up living in the damage, rather than releasing the damage. And if we choose a facade in the awake state where we try to not live in the damage, we are guaranteed that when we go to sleep we will probably be living in the damage anyway. This is why we need to give up the facade because the facade is just like pointless in the end. [00:56:04.29]

Many of us live in the facade self to avoid the damage self

Participant: But we're not aware; we've just heard we're not aware of all these things we have been doing in our sleep.

I can't agree. We are totally aware in our sleep state what we are doing. We are totally aware but we just don't want to know. We all have the ability to be completely aware of everything that's happening to us at every moment, including every moment while we're asleep. The problem we face is we just don't want to know. You see many people when they pass over, when they die on the physical plane and they pass into the spirit world, they actually finish up learning about all the things they did while they were asleep. There's points of contact where those memories are triggered and you finish up learning a lot of it. And a lot of the pain and suffering of expiation of the Law of Compensation that many spirits describe after they pass is all about many of the things they did in their sleep state rather than their awake state. [00:57:07.19]

Now my feelings are, and my personal practice is, try to know everything that you're doing. If you have a strong desire to know everything you're doing, you'll have a strong desire to know everything you're doing in your sleep state. So we will ask our spirit guides, we'll ask our friends, we get the chance to channel information from a medium, we'll ask: "What am I doing in my sleep state? Am I doing this? Am I doing that?" We'll want to know things and we'll want to know it personally. The majority of us don't want to know even what we're doing in terms of our denial in our awake state let alone our sleep state. That's why we're so addicted to the facade.

So this is something we need to work our way through. I'm only presenting the truth to you. That's all I'm doing here. I'm not trying to destroy your life. I'm not trying to make you morose and miserable. I'm just trying to present the truth and allow your minds to expand enough that you can begin to contemplate emotionally what this means to you and how this is affecting your own progression. So what I'm trying to achieve here is allowing more of the truth about your life, one third of your entire life in fact, and we want to know the truth about that one third of our entire life rather than ignoring its truth. If you ignore the truth of what you've done in your sleep state, or what you are doing in your sleep state, you will never become at-one with God until after you pass. That's the reality. And I would love to see all of you become at-one with God way before you pass. That's my desire and that's why we're having this discussion. [00:58:58.19]

4.11. Interactions with children in the sleep state

Participant: So with the soul to soul connection that we have with our children, do we continue to damage them when we're in our sleep state through the unloving actions that we take?

A lot of times we are so different to our children in the damage that we carry in our soul that our children spend very little time with us in our sleep state unless under certain circumstances. The reason why they spend very little time is their soul is usually in a better condition than our own and therefore they're attracted to an entirely different location in their sleep state than they are living with you in their awake state. So as a result of that, a lot of times our children have a lot more enjoyable experiences away from us than they do when they're with us.

However many parents have these emotions of ownership over their children and carry those emotions into their sleep state. This causes many of those children who have parents like that to feel like they're being forced into being with their parents in the sleep state. Now for many of the children that is horrific. This is why many of your children wake up with nightmares. They're not going to where they could go in the sleep state because of your demands upon them and what they're doing instead is they are living where you are in the sleep state, and it's terrifying, and so they wake up with nightmares as a result. [01:00:33.08]

Participant: I've started to process through some sexual abuse emotions in recent weeks and Jade, my daughter, has been waking up from being asleep vomiting. She'll just wake up and vomit. She's not sick. She feels okay after she's had a chuck.

She's just reflecting your emotions that you're denying in your sleep state. So there's stuff to go there in your sleep state. If you're asleep, and your child wakes up in the middle of the night, vomits but your child is not sick, then there's a very, very high likelihood it's your emotions that you're denying that she's feeling and that she is with you in her sleep state in that moment. So you need to find out what's going on. Now you've got the ability to talk to spirits - find out what's going on. Talk to your guides. Find out what's going on.

4.12. The cause of sleep walking and sleep talking

Participant: When I was little I used to talk a lot in my sleep and I still do it occasionally in my adult life. Is that channelling or is that spirit influence? And my sister also slept walked. She used to sleep walk and I did the talking. [01:01:53.29]

Sleep walking and sleep talking are probably two different influences. Everything that we do is driven by emotions for a start, but if you look at what's happening many times when we're sleep talking, we've still got silver cord connection, and we are expressing ourselves through that body but still wanting to be out of body doing it. Mary does that with me quite frequently. She wakes up in the middle of the night, yabbers something that is usually intelligible and I start trying to have a conversation with her because I've woken up and then when we wake up in the morning she says she can't remember a single word of it. But obviously she's still maintaining distance between the physical body and the spirit body in that space.

Sleep walking is a little bit different in some ways because it's driven to an action and a lot of times self destructive action where you don't have spatial awareness. A lot of that would be driven by another spirit, rather than yourself feeling forced by another spirit while you're in your sleep state to move your physical body. So a lot of that has to do with other spirits being involved with what's going on for you in your sleep state. Again, this can all be discovered and worked through. Yeah. [01:03:15.24]

4.13. Issues can be addressed very rapidly in the sleep state

Participant: Also when I'm in my day state I might be going through something that's hard to handle or deal with and I have consciously gone, "Oh, I know what I need to do" and I'll lie down and have a power nap for 10 minutes or 15 minutes, with an intention to want to get through it and wake up and go, "Oh! I know the answer. I know what I need to do." Is that a normal thing?

Yeah that is a normal thing. We're capable in our sleep state of thinking far more rapidly and addressing things in a rapid manner as well because of the power of the spirit body in comparison to the power of the physical body. So yeah, you can use that as an opportunity to learn things and so forth. So you can actually study in your sleep state if you really wanted to, and you'd actually be far more effective studying in your sleep state than many of you are studying in your awake state, believe it or not. So you can actually study in your sleep state, do no study in your awake state and pass an exam.

4.14. We can have positive experiences in the sleep state

Participant: I remember a fair few of my dreams. Not all of the whole way through, but I go to sleep and there are a few dreams that I will wake up from and then go, "Oh I really loved that dream", and try to put myself back into that dream. I never tend to go back to the same spot but somewhere in familiar surroundings. So I go back into that dream again and now I'm recognising from you said it's very dangerous.

No, not necessarily because some of the places we go to in our sleep state are also quite benevolent to us. They are quite lovely and they help us to feel positive about life and so forth. And we can have a lot of those kinds of experiences in our sleep state, depending on our soul condition. So if our soul condition allows us to go up to the top of the first sphere then remember the top of the first sphere is like Summerland; it's very beautiful. There's not as much heavy emotion as there are in the deeper parts of the hells.

And so we will cycle when we go to sleep between these states that we are capable of being in. It's unlikely the majority of us would have ever hit the second sphere when we're in our sleep state but some of us might temporarily do so by being loaned some energy from a Celestial spirit who's guiding us to show us something in that state. So we will often remember those kinds of experiences. A person on Earth who's in a first sphere condition can often be taken almost up to and including the third sphere of the spirit world, with the help of a spirit loaning you the energy to do so, and so that's one way we actually learn. We have spirits who are guiding us, taking us to a place and say, "Look, this is where you can be. This is what it feels like here"... and so forth. But then we generally go back to our normal condition because it's not a permanent thing in our soul at this point. [01:06:23.07]

4.15. We can damage people more in our sleep state than our awake state

Participant: Going into the sleep state of where we're affecting others and over-cloaking others in our sleep state. How much of an effect are we really having on people? For example my mum is in my dreams. Am I over-cloaking her or is she coming in over-cloaking me?

Well I'll let you work that out. The reality is we do have a large effect on other people both on Earth and in the spirit world by what we do in our sleep state. That's the reality and many of us have a larger effect on them in our sleep state than we do even in our awake state, because of the unhealed emotions that are much rawer and more easily felt in our sleep state. So unfortunately many of us do more damage in our sleep state than we do in our awake state. One of the primary reasons why is because in our awake state we're addicted to other people's opinions of us, whereas in our sleep state you pretty much give up that addiction pretty fast because you can feel, you can see your own body and you know the mess it's in, and so you're no longer addicted to somebody else telling you that it's not like that. [01:07:42.08]

Most of us finish up looking in the mirror at some point in the spirit world before we pass. Many don't after as a result of what they don't want to face anymore. So when I talk to spirits who have passed and I ask them, "Have you actually looked in a mirror yet?" Many of them will say, "No I've never looked in the mirror." And I ask them, "Why?" And they say, "Because I don't want to see what is going to be my reflection because all the people that I'm with," they say, "all look pretty bad and I just accept they all look pretty bad without examining myself to see how bad I look." But they have an intellectual awareness that they must look as bad as the other people that they're with but still have not looked in the mirror themselves.

5. The difference between the sleep state and dreaming

Participant: So what's the difference between the sleep state and dreaming?

Okay, good question. A dream is a little different. So we'll talk about our dreams. Now for many of you, your dreams are a mixture of a sleep state experience and other things. But if we talk about the two types of states differently, because you'll get a bit of an idea of what's going on.

In your awake area of your life there are a lot of emotions that you're denying and many of us are living in our facade and denying specific emotions in our awake state that actually still exist within our sleep state. And these emotions still exist within our soul. Now once you set an intention inside of your soul to begin dealing with some of those emotions, you make a choice in your sleep state to become conscious in your awake state about some of those emotions. The way you give yourself the message in your sleep state to your awake state that the emotion exists within you that you need to address or deal with is by having a dream.

A dream is a message sent by us from our sleep state to our awake state

So a dream is a message usually from your own soul, but sometimes combining with the souls of others, in other words sometimes with help from other people. Your dream is a message to your own soul about what you're denying in your awake state, in an effort to attempt to address the issue emotionally.

Now that is a very, very different thing to a sleep state experience. In the sleep state experience there is usually no desire to address particular emotions. Particularly when we're living in the first sphere a lot there is very little desire yet to deal with our emotions and as a result of that the sleep state experience is an actual experience that we're engaging in the sleep state, sometimes which we remember but very rarely - most of the time we don't remember it in our awake state at all. So we are in our spirit body in the sleep state and what we're doing in this sleep state is we're trying to give a message from ourselves to ourselves in our awake state, to break through an emotional resistance that we have in our awake state; something that we realise in our sleep state we would benefit from if we actually addressed in our awake state.

Now many of you have those kinds of dreams and those kinds of dreams have all sorts of natures, some of which are violent, some of which are fear based, some of which are angry based, some of which are sexually based and so forth. That's not the same as having the actual experience in the sleep state. The reality for most of us is that the majority of us do not remember the actual experiences we have in the sleep state very clearly at all. The reason why is because we have huge amounts of judgement about what we're doing in our sleep state, which is very, very different to the dream state.

Participant: So is it more important to really focus on the emotion that we're waking up with from a dream, rather than the actual really weird pictures that we got in the dream? [01:12:42.18]

It's always the emotion. Always focus on the emotion, yep. Now there'll be two reasons for the emotion. We might have just had a dream, which exposed the emotion to us, so focus on that. But the other times we just wake up, there's no recollection of any dream but we wake up in a mood, whatever that mood is. The mood might be fearful. The mood might be frustrated. The mood might be annoyance. The mood might be sexual. Those kind of moods are an indication of what's just gone on in the sleep state, and we need to allow ourselves to feel more into those moods that we have when we wake up and attempt to begin to want to know the truth about them.

Remember we said yesterday the facade is destroyed by our own personal integrity and it's destroyed by our own desire for truth, our own desire for growth, and our own desire to trust God and have faith in God through the process. Now if we're focused on dealing with our facade then what we'll finish up doing is we will not respond to what's going on to maintain the facade. We will start confronting our addictions in all areas, including when we're asleep.

Now the majority of us don't do that at this point in time. What the majority of us do is we are addicted to the facade in our awake state and also to a degree in our sleep state, and what we attempt to do then is we attempt to do things in our sleep state that act out the emotions that we feel we're not allowed to have when we're awake. So this is why we finish up doing usually a lot of things that are a lot more damaging in our sleep state than we realise, because we're acting out the emotion rather than actually healing the emotions.

Now dreams are an attempt to heal the emotion. So dreams are good for us in that regard; they're an attempt to display to us the emotion we have and then to go and address that particular emotion; that's the point of the dream. However that is very, very different from what we do in our sleep state. Usually what happens in our sleep state, like I said, is a variety of different things, but unfortunately the darkness we carry with us causes us to do very dark things that we would not normally contemplate in our awake state. Ironically the bright things that happen to us are probably more extreme than the brightness that we have in our awake state as well, because we allow ourselves to feel what we feel when we're in our sleep state more, because we're not as addicted to the facade because our body demonstrates the truth of our condition. Our spirit body demonstrates the truth of the condition. [01:15:41.05]

5.1. A lady in the audience expresses her doubts to AJ

Participant: I feel a bit afraid to say this but I actually am having a lot of trouble believing you at the moment.

But can I just ask who else has trouble believing what I'm saying at the moment? You mean Arvana is alone?

Participant: I'm the only one! (Laughs)

No I don't think you're the only one.

Participant: Maybe the only honest one! (Laughs)

The only honest one without the facade! (Laughs)

Participant: Yeah and I've got a lot of problems believing stuff about spirits as well, so I think it's sort of inter-related. I don't really know what I want to say, I just felt like saying that. [01:16:30.22]

Yeah sure, that's fine. You don't have to believe me.

Participant: Yeah. (Laughs) I've just been finding myself zoning out a bit and being distracted.

5.1.1. Spirits influence our interest in discussions

Yeah. And I put to you that's because you're being over-cloaked by a spirit who wants you to zone out and they don't want you to find out about anything that is to do with a discussion about spirits, or a discussion about what's happening in your sleep state. This is a problem that many of us face is that the spirits that are with us do not want us to know because they can continue what they do, and we've got to look at our investment in that. We have an investment in that; that we're getting something from them. Therefore we don't want to actually accept the truth. Now the reality is if you don't believe what's happening, just wait until you pass and then you'll find out! [01:17:19.01]

Participant: I don't think I want to do that! (Laughs)

Well that's the other option. And there are some other options obviously and that is to open your mind a bit to get to the point where you're willing to investigate this more fully rather than just say, "I have trouble believing in spirits," or, "I have trouble believing about what happens in my sleep state," and then trying to just stay away from all of those experiences.

You see we're often led to stay away from experiences so that we don't discover the truth and this is the influence many spirits have upon us. When we have a desire in us to not know the truth the spirits with us can say, "You don't want to know that. You don't want to know that. Turn off here. Go to sleep there." And this is why in some discussions we have half the audience feels like going to sleep and feels like tuning out, zoning out, and not engaged. And then all of a sudden we start talking about another subject where there's not as much emotional turmoil in the subject and everyone's wide awake then and enjoying that particular discussion. This is a problem that we face, is that we're often influenced to not listen to the things that would benefit us the most. [01:18:28.24]

5.2. Repetitive dreams are an indication of suppressed emotions

Participant: Going back to the dreams, I have had quite a lot of repetitive dreams, the same one over and over and over again. And I also have a friend who consistently has a lot of premonition coming through her dreams.

Can I address the first issue first, this over and over again thing? That is to do with things you're ignoring in your awake state, always. It's your soul trying to tell you, "Look at this. Look at this. Look at this. Look at this. Look at this. Look at this," and we in our awake state go, "I just keep having this same dream," and we ignore it. "I had the same dream, you know, I don't understand it, so I'll ignore it," instead of trying to discover more about it. [01:19:31.20]

5.3. Premonitions in dreams are messages from our sleep state

Participant: Now with the premonition thing, is my friend being shown emotional injuries within her that perhaps she needs to look at that, which are attracting events?

Yeah. It's an interesting thing the premonition thing, because it's actually you generally trying to tell yourself in your awake state about something that's going to happen. Now a lot of people don't have much awareness about what causes the event to happen, and so what they do is they focus on the event and they're trying to feed themselves in their awake state, "This event's going to happen. This event's going to happen. Be aware of it," not understanding for the majority of people that they could actually change the event if they chose to. They almost look upon the event happening as something that they knew was going to happen and then they have almost a fatalistic view of the future; that anything that they have a premonition about will definitely happen no matter what they choose. [01:20:38.01]

Participant: She's lucky that she's actually been aware of what's happening and she's looking at what she needs to change.

Spot on.

Participant: For instance she had a premonition that a caravan and a car were going to pull up across the street and then it would explode. Probably a week or so later her ex-father in law pulled up across the road with a caravan and the car exactly whatever, but it didn't play out but because she was aware of making different choices after that particular dream. [01:21:13.04]

Yeah. And it could have been that some of her fear would attract that dad would leave the gas thing going or something like that, and then some spark or something would happen and all of a sudden the van would explode. But if she dealt with a particular fear of it happening then that event wouldn't happen. [01:21:26.27]

So a lot of those premonitions can help you emotionally if you're willing to address the emotion. Unfortunately in the general population when people have premonitions they just become very afraid of them and they don't really address the emotion. So there's a high likelihood of the event actually occurring that supports their feeling that life is fatalistic and so forth and predetermined. [01:21:51.23]

Participant: I'm just wondering about all these monks, Buddhist and Tibetan monks and who decide on celibacy: are they basically over-cloaked?

Many of them are. Yes.

Participant: And also children who have been put in monasteries? Isn't that an unloving act for these children?

Many times it is. What happens often is the child doesn't have its own free will to decide whether it is going to be in a location or not but rather that decision has been made by adults usually parents, but often others, who are addicted to the concept that if they have some degree of purity that they shouldn't be sexual and then they teach them to do that from a very, very young age. Unfortunately many of these children are over cloaked while they are in the womb, so they actually become over cloaked by spirit while they are in their mother's womb and from that moment on the spirit basically dictates almost their entire life and their entire life is pretty much led and created by the spirits' demands upon the child and the mother and father are open to that control because they have usually a certain religious belief and a certain set of emotional conditions associated with that religious belief.

Participant: So all this Buddhist methodology and celibacy has been praised a lot. People go there... It's very big.

If you look at almost any form of religion on Earth, every one of them was seeded somehow in the spirit world. So there have been spirits who have actually guided the formation of every religion on Earth and these spirits are heavily involved in ensuring that their religion maintains a degree of presence on the Earth and as a result of that these spirits are addicted to taking whatever measures possible to ensure the longevity of the religious teaching that they have promulgated themselves. And as a result of that they will often resort to methods such as control, over cloaking, all sorts of methods in order to ensure the longevity of their religion on the Earth.

Participant: What about the Dalai Lama?

He is another person who was over cloaked from a very, very young age. He is now very rarely over cloaked now but because of the over cloaking that occurred through his younger years he now has a very firm set of beliefs and a very firm set of actions and he gets spirits talking to him and telling him things all the time and as a result of that he has a complete set of beliefs systems that is the exact mirror of the previous Dalai Lama, which is the exact mirror of the previous Dalai Lama, and so forth with a few little personality changes here and there and the result of that is that you have the longevity of like a dynasty and there are many dynasties on Earth not just religious but also political and economical that are formed in exactly the same way.

5.4. An example of a man dreaming about moving from location to location and being hunted

Participant: I've had experiences in the dream state where I become aware and I go to a lucid state and then I'll pop out in different dimensions, like shopping malls, golf courses, and things like that. I'll be flying around for a while and then eventually I'll land and there will be beings come and hunt me out of there. So I'm just curious as to what's actually happening there?

In your sleep state you are totally capable of travelling to any location in the spirit world where your soul condition allows or any location on the Earth. The spirit body uses what you would scientifically call a portal in order to go or move from one place to another, and this can be done at any time in your sleep state. So people often go rapidly from one place to another place, to another place, to another place. If they're more aware of their sleep state, they will remember those experiences and actually feel them as they're going through them and wake up knowing what they were going through. So many of the events that occur in our sleep state are like that where we actually can remember them as they're occurring and when we wake up we remember the experience just like we would remember any other experience that we had when we're awake. [01:26:54.02]

Participant: My take on it was that they're actual people in their addictions, so when they pass they go to these various levels of.... is that what you're saying?

Yeah. If you look at the average of humanity, we mostly live in the upper half of the first sphere in terms of our condition.

There are many different levels within the first sphere of the spirit world

In the upper half of the first sphere there are all sorts of things. There are cities, there's country, there's shopping. It's a very, very close to a mirror of what's going on here on Earth to a large degree, right down to the fact that some cities here on Earth are actually a mirror of what was created in the spirit world, or vice versa where some people pass over here on Earth and they like where live, so they create exactly the same thing in the spirit world to live in and so forth. So you get all this mirror stuff occurring, and as a result the majority of us can flick between experiences of which there are literally billions of possibilities in the first dimension of the spirit world, flitting between these different experiences. Now every time we do it there is an emotion involved, there is some kind of thing or some kind of attraction that draws us to these locations. So if we can remember them and remember there is always some kind of loving or unloving emotion inside of us that draws us to these particular experiences, then we'll understand why we went to those particular locations.

Participant: Yeah most of the time they will be beings that would hunt me out of there. I assume they're spirits not wanting me to explore any further.

No there's also an emotion driving this inside of you; that you often feel like you're being pursued or hunted, or you feel that there's emotion you need to experience, and I suggest it's an actual family lineage emotion that you've had over years. So there's something that's gone on in your family past historically where your family was hunted and it became part of your family's emotional injury set. As a result you now have that emotion within you that you're being pursued or hunted.

So what I would do in my awake state is I'd get out movies that actually are like that, being pursued or hunted. So the "Terminator" series or something, and watch them and feel my emotions while I'm feeling that feeling of being pursued and hunted down relentlessly. When you deal with that emotion in your awake state you'll no longer be hunted in your sleep state. [01:29:36.12]

Participant: I was actually mugged by a couple of characters at one point. And I was stabbed and I actually could feel that and it woke me up. And then from then on I had issues with my heart where I was actually stabbed. Any clues there?

When we have this hunted feeling inside of us there is often a large degree of sadness that we have associated with it, and that affects our heart. So when you get stabbed in the spirit world, through an experience in a certain location, it's always related to the emotion you're denying through that experience. So there is a feeling inside multiple generations of your family of, "Why are we hunted all the time?" This grief associated with being hunted that very few of them in the spirit world have actually felt at this point, and so they still actually have it. They still have that same feeling of being hunted and there is a lot of grief associated with it. They almost feel like they're to blame somehow for being hunted all the time. But they don't want to go into the grief of it, they want to fight it and my suggestion is to go into the grief associated with the feeling. [01:30:56.09]

Lots of questions, guys, but I'm not getting to present what I want to say.

5.5. Dreams about interactions with AJ or Mary

Participant: If I've had yourself or Mary in my dreams, or are they more dreams than actual sleep state experiences?

They can be a combination of both. Like if I'm saying something that wouldn't sound like I would normally be saying, then it's highly likely it's a dream, not a sleep state experience. If I'm saying something that sounds like I probably would say, then most of the time that would be a sleep state experience. We visit many of you in your sleep state. Many of you have recollection of that because there's so much going on in the sleep state that can be addressed if we allow ourselves to remember what's going on. Many of your Celestial friends do exactly the same thing, visit you in your sleep state, trying to help you through different emotions and the layers of resistance in you depend on whether you listen to them or not at the particular time. So yeah that goes on pretty much all the time, Jane. [01:32:04.12]

Participant: And just also does that mean you're able to then go down to the first sphere to visit?

Yep. Any person in any condition pretty much can go into the first sphere, so even if I was in a really dark condition I could go into the first sphere. Not all of us can get in the second and few in the third and hardly any at all in the fourth or so forth. But the issue we face is while we do what we do in our sleep state without a consciousness of it in our awake state there's a high likelihood that we'll not address the unloving emotions that exist and unfortunately a high unlikelihood that we'll ever get out of the first dimension as a result.

So a lot of times you'll have a lot of spiritual help in your sleep state with people trying to wake you up, "Be aware, have some integrity," those things we talked about yesterday that get us through the facade; they're the things we need to develop both in our awake and sleep state. If we develop it both in our awake and sleep state, we'll get to a point where we'll no longer tolerate certain behaviours that are going on for us in our sleep state. We'll no longer tolerate, we won't do it anymore, even though we feel like a burning desire to do it we still won't do it because we know that it's out of harmony with love and this is where we need integrity. [01:33:27.06]

Participant: Can I just say when you guys do come into either dreams or sleep state experiences, it's the times when I feel I'm quite stuck or blocked and then I'll find I'm able to then move through something, which is pretty good, so thank you to both of you.

Yeah. No worries it's our pleasure. There are a lot of issues we face in our sleep state and we often need help to get through those particular issues. There's also a lot of issues we face in our awake state that we're not allowing ourselves to be conscious of and what myself and Mary to a lesser degree attempt to do, is try to help the person in the sleep state so that they become conscious of those particular things in their awake state. [01:34:13.00]

Participant: I was actually going to ask exactly the same question as Jane.

Great minds think alike, is that the idea?

Participant: It feels like the dreams I have of you and sometimes Mary as well, might be a combination as well, because it feels like you guys, but they're a bit trippy and dreamy as well. They're a bit symbolic. But I was going to ask, is it my desire to connect with you guys that kind of attracts that?

No most of the time we're attracted to people who have a desire for truth, so it's not just people here in the audience that would experience us visiting them in their sleep state. The majority of people that we meet in fact all have felt they've met us before, and that was before any of the media occurred where they saw us on telly or something like that. So for the majority of people that means that they have met us in their sleep state and usually we're attracted to people who have a strong desire for truth. So what we do is we want to connect to anyone with a stronger than average desire for truth in any state that's possible. A lot of times it's a lot more possible in the sleep state and so we connect with them there. [01:35:28.03]

5.6. An example of a lady having difficulty getting to sleep

Participant: For as a long as I can remember I've had a lot of resistance to going to sleep and have felt that it's to do with fears of spirits and experiences I've had where I've seen horrible spirits going into that transition state into sleep. But from what you say today it could also be a lot of fear about really experiencing the actual location that reflects my true soul condition. [01:36:00.09]

And also experiencing events that you choose to take that you feel quite ashamed of.

Participant: Okay. So it could be any of those three things or a combination of all of those things.

And usually a combination of all of them.

5.7. Snoring is often due to the suppression of emotions

Participant: My ex-husband was a dreadful snorer. I could have killed him! And I wondered what that is all about?

(AJ makes a snoring noise)

Participant: That one!

It reminds me of a family that I once knew. If you stayed in their house both the father and the mother would snore, but they wouldn't wake up. One day I was staying in their house and it felt like, you know how in cartoons the walls go out and the walls go in, that's what it actually felt like. It was so loud. They were three bedrooms down and we could them plain as day snoring away and then we heard their daughter get up. She went into their room and screamed at them both, woke them both up, screamed at them both for snoring and then went away. It was just so funny I thought. (Laughs)

Now the question was about snoring and what actually happens. I feel a lot of snoring is about what happens in your awake state, denial of different emotions actually, rather than what's going on so much in your sleep state. People who snore also generally have physical problems related to emotional problems that they are in denial of in their awake state. That's why the majority of people who do snore are generally larger people and they are not in their body generally as much as they could be, but also they have a lot of emotional issues related to relaxation in their day to day life generally as well. So there are quite a lot of different issues that dictate a person snoring but I don't think it really pertains to this discussion because it's not really due to sleep state experiences, it's more to do with denied emotions in their awake state and their own physical condition. [01:38:49.09]

5.8. We can damage others in our sleep state but not in our dreams

Participant: AJ am I understanding correctly that in the sleep state we're actually interacting with other souls?

Always, yes.

Participant: But not in our dream state?

In our dream state we could be, because remember the dream state is you in your sleep state trying to give yourself a message that you'll remember in your awake state. That's what your dream is all about. Now you may often get assistance in doing so. There's a very good description of that in the Robert James Lees material where Frederick and another spirit try to help Frederick's father remember something. But the problem is they try to help him remember something that he didn't really want to remember and so of course he forgot it. But there was also a spirit with him over-cloaking him and as soon as he awoke, the spirit was also trying to interfere with his memory of that particular sleep state experience. It's a very good description of what actually does occur to many people when they hover between the sleep and awake states.

Participant: So we can damage other people in our dream state and they can damage us?

Not in your dream state. In your sleep state.

Participant: Sleep state. Right. Okay.

So you remember your dream state is you in your sleep state attempting to give yourself something in your awake state that you don't know or are not dealing with. And so you give yourself a series of pictures and other types of things to cause the trigger of that particular emotion. Now in that space you're not damaging anybody else. You're not even damaging yourself. You're trying to help yourself. That's totally different than an actual sleep state experience that's involving other people and so forth, totally different; usually in those experiences we have a tendency to damage others.

6. Audience questions

6.1. Prayers for assistance are only answered when they come from our heart

Participant: Before we go to sleep can we actually ask for help in our sleep state or in our dream state, like invite Celestials or...?

Yes. But let's remember something I said yesterday. Many of you think you're asking for help but you're not actually asking for help. Can I just explain what I mean by that again? What's often happening is saying a prayer to God with your mind, but your heart, your soul, has a completely different emotional feeling about that. Now is that prayer ever going to get anywhere above your head? No. Our soul has to be in harmony with the mind's prayer to God for it to actually be a desire that we wish to have fulfilled.

Our prayers need to come from our soul, not our mind, for God to respond

So if I can give an example of this? We may think that we desire to heal say some sexual issues that we have. So we ask God to help us to work through the sexual issues that we have but in our soul we have huge feelings of, "I don't want to work through this issue. It's too hard to work through. I don't want to have those issues. I feel ashamed and I don't want to feel my shame. I feel angry that the men have harmed me or whoever has harmed me that caused these sexual issues to occur," and so forth. I've got all these blockages in my soul saying, "No, no, no, no, no," and at the same time my mind's saying, "Please show me the truth". Now does the soul really want to know the truth? No. Who does God respond to? God responds to the soul of an individual, not the mind of the individual. The only time God responds to the mind is when the mind's in harmony with the soul. That's the only time that God will respond to the mind.

So most of the time, for many of us the prayer is not to actually expose the truth, but the prayer is to cover it over. The prayer is to keep it suppressed. Our actual desires are often working in complete disharmony with what God's Truth or Love would dictate if we were in harmony with that. [01:43:13.29]

Participant: So does that mean we will only receive help in our sleep state when we're in that true desire?

It's exactly the same as our awake state. It's only when we're in our true desire that we're going to receive help and it's only our true desires that are our prayers. All of the desires that are out of harmony with love are no longer a prayer that God will respond to. So God can watch us doing it, but God's not going to answer it because He can't; we need to have a pure desire with our prayer for them to actually be activated.

Most of the time desire is prayer. You stay in your desire you're going to be praying pretty much constantly. It's when we want to have our desires met in other directions that we have the trouble, and for many of us what we're trying to do is have our desires met to deny something, have our desires met to not know, to not understand, to not see and so they're the desires that we have. God's universe is set up to totally do the opposite to that. God's universe is set up to expose everything to us, to make us see, to do all of these things to expose the truth but we're exercising our desire most of the time in the complete opposite direction to that.

Now we can't then go to God, "Let's make out that I actually have a desire". You can't fake it till you make it. You know that saying? You can't do that with God. It's either real or it isn't real, one of the two. Now if it's a real passionate desire that exists within your soul, it's already a prayer, God's already responding to it, but the more you become consciously aware of that passionate desire, and the more you feed it, the greater the desire becomes and you will get to know the truth very rapidly if you set your desire like that.

Mary wants to talk to you about that when she gets up, but if you allow yourself to think that you've got a desire while at the same time your very life would demonstrate that you have none whatsoever, then don't fool yourself. You're better off going, "Yeah, my life is really telling me I don't really have a desire at all. My life's really saying that I don't really want to do anything," and be honest about it at least because without the truth, without the honesty, you are not going to be able to progress or change. [01:45:40.10]

6.2. An example of a lady who listens to AJ audios to fall asleep and avoid her emotions

Participant: I have been large periods of 30 or 40 years of my life listening to spiritual CDs or tapes, including in recent years AJ mp3s, before I fall asleep, and also when I woke up at night. A couple of weeks ago I stopped that, or it just happened because I didn't have it with me. Now I notice I wake up with fear and I wake up during the night, not very often, whereas previously I was just always happy. I'm not happy anymore, not in my bubble anymore. So is it actually good not to fall asleep to your mp3s?

Yeah. The reason why many of you are consistently listening to what I say, listening to the DVDs, listening to tapes, playing it constantly with everything you do is because you do not want to tune into your own emotions. You use it as a way of avoiding yourself, and it's not a very good practice; in fact it's harming people. When you have a strong desire to do something you'll listen to a presentation, you'll take down a lot of notes probably from that presentation, and instead of using it as sort of way to calm yourself down through your life, just like the same way people would use meditation or some other technique, you're using it to expose the truth and bring up things in your life, and now it's going to have some positive effect. But while you're using it to make you feel calmer, to make you feel safe, to make you feel secure, to make you, to help you understand and all those kind of things, and you're using it then as a tool or a crutch.

Imagine yourself with a crutch with a broken leg. The broken leg is, "I don't want to trust myself, and I don't want to look at my own emotions and my own feelings. I want to feel good all the time." So we put the crutch there and we need that thing to make us feel good all the time. So if you take that thing away, what happens? You start feeling bad. So for many of us, we put that thing back, so that we feel good again.

What we need to do is what you've just done, Rita, and that is to stop that process and to start engaging how you really feel without trying to tune out of it. Now that's very different to receiving encouragement. So don't be afraid to receive encouragement. There are a lot of things that can give us encouragement and there are things we can do to receive encouragement. So I'm not decrying any of those things but what I'm saying is there a danger of listening to something over and over and over again, not because you're actually listening, but because you want to use it as a crutch to look after some emotion. [01:48:45.29]

6.3. An example of a lady experiencing emotions in the sleep state

Participant: At night I don't wake up, but I'm crying, I'm screaming, I'm sweating and I'm wet from tears and I shake and...

So you're crying and screaming, but in your sleep?

Participant: Yeah and I don't wake up.

And your husband wakes you up or someone wakes you up?

Participant: Yes. And I was thinking that maybe I'm processing an emotion but what you were saying today about snoring, is it the same thing? Do I deny my emotions?

What's happening in reality is you're having a sleep state experience, which is terrifying you, and it's terrifying you so much that you're now verbalising it in your body while you're asleep. So the key is to wake up in those circumstances and to feel your fear in the awake state as well, because something is attracting you to a location in the spirit world where you're having a terrifying experience and that something has to always be related to the terror that you're experiencing in that experience. So what I would do is I would wake up and try to feel the terror that I feel in my awake state, that obviously I'm in a lot of denial of in my awake state, but which I am attracting in the sleep state. [01:50:16.04]

6.4. An example of teaching a lady on her deathbed some Divine Truth

Participant: Following on from that then, I recently had an opportunity to spend some time with my aunt who was dying. And I noticed a couple of times, especially early in the piece, because it was a very quick process for her, that she would wake up terrified, but she doesn't have the opportunity to go back to feel because she wasn't there really. I don't know how to describe it, she was very, very fearful and there was always somebody with her 24 hours a day. That was why I was there, to be one of those people. All I did with her was just give her some reassurance about where she was because I felt that what was happening was that she was having an experience where she was maybe being shown where she was going to in the spirit world and really didn't want to go there. So I just sort of spoke with her about how that is where she was going to she didn't have to stay. And then I would just say the prayer for Divine Love and reassure her, but people that are dying who don't get that opportunity then to be awake, what's the best way to help them? [01:51:39.28]

Well it's the same process; while they're asleep they can still be attracted to whatever you say to them. They can hear you in your awake state when they're asleep so say exactly the same things. There's a beautiful thing about being with somebody who's passing because you have the opportunity in this moment to teach them a lot of things if they're willing to be aware. Many are not obviously, but many also can be and so we have the opportunity to teach them the truth. Now the majority of people drag out their death for reasons of fear. They're terrified of where they're going to go, where they're going to be and we need to give them some reassurance, like you said, that they don't need to stay there, they can develop their soul in love and not stay there. Now they may listen to that and many do when they're in that quasi state just before death, where they're just about half way there and half way here in that place. [01:52:34.16]

Participant: I was there for 11 days. For the first four days the fear that she was waking up in was really obvious but then she progressively became calmer. [01:52:50.03]

Yep and what I would suggest is that your words helped her see that she could get out of that location. Then she was probably more open to hearing from some brighter spirits as well through the prayers that you were giving and so she probably started talking to those particular people while she was in her sleep state and that helped her feel much more calmer, and therefore also helped her to be willing to pass rather than holding on to dear life with her body as long as she possibly could. [01:53:19.22]

Participant: When I first went up there it was because the doctors had said, "Oh she's only got a day or two left," and it was two weeks after that, so she was holding on fairly tightly. But she was getting a lot calmer as the time progressed.

And that's good, and a lot of the times of passing you can assist a person who's passing quite a lot. Just by helping them understand the truth of what's happening, the truth of the location, where they're going to. Praying for them helps them as well, because it brings spirits who are in a bright condition to help the person as well. God sends those spirits based on your prayer and longing if it's sincere and all of those things assist the person to come to acknowledgement of their own condition, but also to be able to then take steps to improve their condition even before they've died. They have the ability to improve their condition, so that they don't pass into the place that they were first shown.

Unfortunately for many though they never listen to that and they do pass exactly where they were first shown. And many don't listen to the possibility of change. It's the love that they feel from you that will cause their change. So when you express true love and desire for them to become aware of different truths, now they have a very good opportunity to change and most do. Most do change. They might not change rapidly, but at least they change enough to not be attracting that location that they were originally going to go to in the spirit world and the darker the location that you go to in the spirit world in terms of when you pass, the more difficult it is to get out of it as well unfortunately, because the darker location is a reflection of the resistance of your soul, so it's telling you that you're already in a lot of resistance. So if we can overcome the resistance of many of the people who are just about to pass to what's going on inside of their soul then already we've helped them get out of a darker condition into a brighter condition, just by overcoming their resistance to truth. So it's very, very good to do those things. [01:55:43.08]

6.5. An example of a lady waking up with a song in her mind

Participant: I often wake up singing a song. Like I notice when I come back into my body there's a song there and I'm just curious what's going on.

Yeah what I would do is I'd listen to the message of the song. I used to do this almost every day, wake up singing a song, and I still do it occasionally, as Mary knows. I just listen to the theme of the song, and feel my feelings about that as to what's going on. It's often a reflection of what you've just been doing in the sleep state or an emotion you've just been feeling in the sleep state, and it's a way of giving yourself a message about that. Some of it will be good; some of it may be not so good. It just depends on the message of the song.

7. Closing Words to Part 1

How do you feel so far about the subject? (Audience noise) I'm answering a lot of questions but the problem is with answering all of your questions is many of you are not asking the right questions, because what you're doing is you're asking very personalised questions, but they're not questions associated with what's actually going on in terms of the overall view. So what we'd like to do after the break is Mary would like to present to you by herself some things that have been happening for her; her realisations of what's been going on in the sleep state for herself, the co-relation between what was happening in the sleep state for herself and what's happening in the awake state and the denial and the facade and those kind of different emotions.

So what we want to do is present to you that so you get a bit more of a picture of what's going on. We feel the problem with a bit too many questions is that we can get off the point when we are... you need to investigate your own personal issues with regard to the sleep state and there needs to be a desire inside of you that builds to know your sleep state. And while I answer your questions, that doesn't necessarily mean you have a desire to know what's going on in your sleep state. That's something that you personally need to develop.

So what I would suggest to you is to have a listen to the experience in the second half of this discussion. It's going to be quite tough for you to perhaps listen to what Mary wants to talk to you about and she wants to demonstrate the relationship between what we spoke of yesterday, which was all to do with the facade self, and the relationship between what happens with the facade self when you're on Earth and then what goes on in the spirit world, due to the denial of the underlying damaged emotions that are caused by wanting to maintain the facade self.

So we want to illustrate all of that. Mary is going to illustrate that through some of her personal experiences so that you can understand more fully what you need to be brave enough to discover. And when I say need to brave enough, remember one of the qualities yesterday that breaks through facade? Courage! So you know we need courage and we need to develop that quality within ourselves, and hopefully this might help you to develop some courage without a quality that is quite damaging to you, and that's the quality of judgement. We need to have courage without judgement. That's what we need to have. So if we could do that.

The Sleep State: Part 2

8. Mary describes her experiences in the sleep state

Mary: Hi everyone. It's been a while since I've been up here officially and probably before I start I would like to just talk about that briefly why I have chosen to not be teaching for a while.

8.1. The reasons for Mary taking a break from teaching

Mary: If you remember back in the middle of this year AJ and I went to Greece for about 6 weeks and we did some teaching there together, the majority of it I really enjoyed. I loved it and it's definitely my passion to talk about Divine Truth with the world. But what I realised in the process was that there was still a lot of projection coming out of my soul about certain topics that I didn't want to talk about, and I was actually living in a lot of fear about my dad this time, from this incarnation, and his feelings about certain things. So every time we'd get to a topic that would challenge my dad, Dan, I would get pretty rigid and there would be a projection coming out of me towards AJ of trying to control the course of where the discussion was going rather than just feel my terror, feel my fear.

Mary: And there's one talk where I think it's quite noticeable that I'm having a little bit of a meltdown and I'd really love it to never be seen again! (Laughter) That's the one everyone watches and goes, "This is where Mary's getting rigid." Where we talked at the start of the talk about the unloving projections that a lot of the people in Greece were actually projecting at us. I have a large feeling inside of me that I'm not allowed to speak up when someone's being unloving towards me, which is actually unloving of me and it's not actually the truth because we talk about love all the time. If one of you was being unloving to the other of you I would certainly speak up about it; but when it comes to someone else being unloving to me I still have a lot of fear about saying that. Mind you, I'm willing to project about it, which is actually a very unloving thing.

Mary: So what happened at the end of Greece was that AJ and I had a talk. He talked to me about some of those things but I was also becoming increasingly aware of them and my desire to stay in a certain pattern in the way that we teach, in the way that I live and perhaps it was the first real pure desire that I had to confront in my facade self. (And I'm going to talk about the facade and the sleep state a lot in a little minute.) But perhaps that was the first time I was really wanting to see a little bit of my facade and how much I wanted to appear in control and very loving and very good when really there was a lot of fear that I was living in.

Mary: There was also a lot where I really wasn't practicing what we were talking about. I was getting rigid at times I have been angry with people who are around us because I haven't wanted to feel my fear. So I felt quite humbled after recognising that and recognising how that was impacting on what we were teaching, and the message we were giving to the world. When we're up here the camera is on us and our dynamics are playing out I felt really strongly that my projections at AJ and my projections at other people were damaging the purity of what could be presented. So I decided to step back from that, although you've witnessed me having problems stepping back from that because I always want to interject. So probably more recently... this is my passion, I do want to do it, but I need to be willing to feel and experience my fear and also not hide behind AJ as my security blanket.

Mary: So that's why perhaps in the coming months you'll be seeing me do a few presentations on my own, talking about Divine Truth. But today really I'm just here as your sister to talk about some of my experiences that I've been having. And to be honest I don't really feel like I'm a good person to teach the Divine Truth at the moment because I feel I haven't been practicing it for four years really, which is what I've been coming to terms with in the past few weeks. [00:04:49.20]

Mary: So really I'm just here to share with you some of my experiences. I wasn't going to do that this weekend. It's not an accident that we're talking about the facade self and the sleep state this weekend. We were going to be talking about other things but because of some of the things that have come up, especially for me and what it has brought up for AJ in the past few weeks, we decided this was a relevant thing to talk to you all about. And I wasn't actually going to share anything because I was recognising how far I've been away from practicing truth but yesterday as I was doing the filming I was pretty heavily prompted by my spirit guides to actually share what I'm about to share with you.

Mary: I'm a bit nervous but I hope, it is my sincere hope, that perhaps it will help some of you have a desire to know what's happening in your sleep state. I know a lot of you are a bit freaked out by what AJ's been talking about this morning but I can honestly say that the last few weeks have been pretty full on, very emotional and at times I have really wanted to resist the truth that I initially asked for. But I do feel a greater sense of empowerment in myself, in my own healing. I'm not trying to avoid myself as much and that's a really beautiful place to actually be. It requires confronting some fear to desire the truth about ourselves and what we're doing in our sleep and awake states, but if we can challenge that fear it's my experience that life can change really rapidly.

8.2. Background information about Mary and AJ's relationship

Mary: The truth is for myself and AJ, we have been in some pretty repetitive cycles for four years; him desiring to come closer to me and me putting up all kinds of resistance and blocks towards that and being in a lot of anger. And until recently I thought that I had worked through quite a bit of anger and I realised that I had done that all on the Natural Love Path. In the last few weeks that's what I've realised. I haven't actually dealt with the causal reasons for what I'm avoiding basically in my rage. And I've just modified my behaviour and so that's something really important I feel to feel about as we're talking about the facade, the damaged and the real selves and I'll talk about that a bit now, in a minute on the board.

Mary: If we are really addicted in our facade and I'm very addicted to my facade, and the reason I am very addicted to my facade is that I'm incredibly invested in how you feel about me. I want you to think I'm great all of the time. Not just 99% of the time - all the time. I also want to maintain an image of myself inside of myself that I think is good and right but the truth is my facade doesn't match my damaged self as much as I want it to, there's a lot of damage in me that makes me be an unloving person but my facade is that I really want to be this loving person. Perhaps this is because I have such a strong sense of my real self because I've been quite connected to that self for a few thousand years. I'm very rigid in my facade and that's caused me to be very resistive to my damaged self.

Mary: So I'm just going to talk a bit, just to recap as AJ did earlier, about the real self. There's our real self in the centre. Here's the damage around that and outside of all that is the very hard eggshell that is my facade.

Our real self is surrounded by our damaged self and our facade self, which is like a hard shell

Mary: I did a lot of channelling in the last few weeks and Rachel, my guide, really helped me with this analogy of the egg and the fact that my facade is very rigid and hard - and for most of us it is. It's this thing that we don't want to let go of. It's the feeling that we must control this image of our self to ourselves and to other people. As AJ said yesterday, it's the hardest part of our self. I think that's why we often feel like it's hard breaking into these things is because we have such an investment in maintaining this egg shell part of ourselves. [00:09:54.19]

Mary: I'm just going to take a deep breath because I'm just a little bit nervous about what I'm going to share. So really as I was relating, when we were in Greece I came face to face with some of the damage that was under my facade; the fact that there's still a lot of fear in me and I don't want to experience that. I want to be in my facade and control my surroundings and present a certain image of myself to the world. When we came back from Greece we realised there was a lot of stuff coming out of me in my facade, wanting to control the course of our relationship, and so we decided to live separately for a couple of months, which we did. And during the course of that time, I also opened up to a little bit more of what is really going on inside of me. But there's still been a great deal of resistance.

Mary: We've been back together for a couple of months, living together and really the same patterns have ensued. AJ wants to be close to me, I put up a lot of blocks towards that both in our emotional and our physical relationship and I've been trying to acknowledge that that's the truth but I haven't wanted to emotionally understand that.

8.3. Mary's discoveries about her sleep state at October-fest in Kentucky

Mary: So when we were down in October-fest the first morning that we were there I went and did some yoga. I'd asked Cecily, "I'd love to learn yoga from you. Would you give us yoga in the mornings?" Many times I wake up and I lie in bed and I feel terrible, and I try to avoid myself. This morning I had to get up and go to yoga so I was immediately in my body. She started just moving us into different postures, and one of the postures I just found triggered utter terror in my body. I couldn't stop shaking and crying; it was all sexual terror. And for the remainder of that day I really opened up to a lot of feelings about sexual abuse that I'd been avoiding for a long time that had been triggered in me for a long time and I've been suppressing them. So this is all kind of the precursor to what happened. [00:12:21.29]

Mary: In the following days AJ and I talked a lot. AJ talked to me a lot about desiring your soul. Really wanting to feel yourself and who you are and because I'd had this, it was a day long experience really of just being completely in my causal emotion, I'd realised how beautiful that was. It was quite challenging but it was also very beautiful. I felt very much connected to myself. And so I began to pray to God with the prompting that I'd had from in my discussion with AJ just about feeling my soul, really desiring to feel my soul.

Mary: And a few mornings later, I think it was on the last day of October-fest I went down to yoga, and the night before I'd had a really big cry as well, just feeling some of the sadness that I have inside of me about feeling that I'm a really yucky person that I rarely let myself feel those kind of feelings. I went to yoga and I was driving back up from yoga and I just really opened my heart to God and I said, "Please can you bring the biggest truth that will bring about the biggest healing for me at this time in my life?" And I really felt it. I walked in the door and AJ said something to me and I think perhaps because I had had that huge openhearted desire, for once I didn't avoid it. And I sat down and I went into it and it was all about what's happening in my sleep state and a lot of truth has been uncovered to me in that process. [00:13:59.23]

8.4. Background to Mary's personal emotional condition

Mary: Before I tell you actually what it was, I want to give you a bit of a background of my personal emotional condition because this is where I feel a lot of you are really afraid about, "What's going on in my sleep state?" The truth is it's very related to what's happening and what we're avoiding in our awake state. So if I can just give you a little bit of background on my personal emotions for all of my life really. I promise I'll try to keep it short. There's four main groups of emotions that I want to talk to you about in the context of what my facade would like to feel is the truth about me and what is really the truth about the damage within me. None of these things are my real self but unless I'm willing to break down a facade and feel the damage I'm never going to get to my real self. So there are four main areas. [00:14:54.28]

Mary: One of the groups of emotions is about sexuality. Another set is about shame. There's another set about soulmates or my soulmate relationship. And the fourth is about integrity.

Mary: So AJ's been talking to me about the injuries that I have in these emotional groups for four years and many times I've intellectually acknowledged what he's talking about, and I might have at times even touched a little bit of the emotion related to them. But the truth is my addiction to my facade has been so great that I have never wanted to actually fully embrace the truth of the damage that I have in these four sets of emotions.

8.4.1. Issues with integrity

Mary: With regards to integrity, my facade self would like to believe that I'm a very honest person, that I'm very loyal, that I'm very transparent in my dealings with others, that I have a strong commitment to truth and love in my life. In fact in my life before I met AJ I would have said all of those things with a lot of passion and conviction. I was committed to serving people and it was very heartfelt feeling inside of me and that I believe in honesty and I believe in loving everyone and that it's really important. And I'd probably get a little bit angry about that, which is not loving, and say that everyone else needed to wake up.

Mary: So you can see even in my illustration I had this idea of myself that I was a loving, honest, open, transparent, loyal person but the truth in my damaged self is something different. The truth is every time we want to avoid a difficult or painful emotion we can't be in integrity. The only way that we can be honest, open, direct, and equal in our dealings with everyone is if I'm willing to feel the emotions that are triggered in all of my interactions with everyone. If I'm not willing to feel them then my desire to avoid the emotion is going to override my desire to be loving, isn't it? If I want to avoid the emotion more than I want to be loving, then I'm going to be out of integrity. I can say I'm a loving person, and I can be loving in a lot of situations. But if in then one situation something gets triggered and I don't want to feel it, boom, I'm going to go to another place that's either angry, resistive, avoiding, running away, that isn't love because I don't want to feel that emotion. [00:18:08.24]

Mary: And the last few weeks has really taught me this about integrity. I can have what I feel is a desire to be honest, to deal with myself, to deal with others in a loving manner but unless I'm willing to feel the difficult emotions that are triggered within me, that is not the truth. It's just not. So there's always going to be a compromise in order to avoid the emotion. So the real truth of my damaged self is that I have not been acting in integrity in a lot of ways as I've said to you guys. Like, I've projected anger at some of you guys. I've been angry with you because a fear's been triggered by something that happened or I haven't wanted to feel unloved by something that you've done. Now in that space I'm really not in integrity. I'm not in integrity to what I'm standing up here and supposedly teaching you about and I'm not in integrity in my own desire to be a loving person and to deal with all people with respect and love. And that's been a really humbling thing to recognise about myself, which my facade has wanted to hold on to for a good 30 years. So that's in the area of integrity. [00:19:24.16]

8.4.2. Soulmate issues

Mary: In terms of my emotions surrounding soulmates, my soulmate and the soulmate part of me, my facade self would like to say to you that I think soulmates is a beautiful gift from God. It's a wonderful thing. How wonderful that someone has created the perfect partner for you that you can have a complete soul life with. And my facade self would tell you that I value monogamy in a soulmate relationship; that I feel that it's the most important relationship you're going to have in your life bar your relationship with God. That's what my facade self has been telling me to me and to everyone else for about 4 years. And the truth is something actually very different. The truth of my real emotion condition is that I feel really angry at God about the fact that soulmates exist. I feel like I don't have any personal choice. I feel like I can give my heart to someone and they can be gone and I'm really angry about the loss that is already inside of me about having lost that relationship. And whenever we come close I want to rebel against that because I want to rebel against the loss and the grief that is triggered within me as we come closer together. I just want to make sure that I'm not skipping over anything. That's the truth. [00:21:11.19]

8.4.3. Shame issues

Mary: The third set of emotions pertains to my shame. I have a huge amount of personal shame and actually because of who I am; and because of the projections at me for 2000 years of being a whore I actually carry a huge feeling inside of me that I am a dirty person; that sexually I'm immoral and that I'm a very shameful creature. That is really the truth of how I feel about myself in my damaged self. My facade self is in complete rebellion against those feelings. I don't want to be shammed by anyone and I certainly have in my facade felt that I've lived a life that is without shame; that sexually I have not been a dirty person. And in fact in my awake state I have been quite closed down towards sexual pleasure all of this life. The truth is I've actually, in my damage, done quite a few things that have been immoral sexually and have increased my shame in this life but that's what occurs when we rebel against the damaged self, and we don't want to feel it and we try and live in the facade. It ends up catching up with us and we end up acting out those things. [00:22:37.04]

8.4.4. Sexuality issues

Mary: I'm just giving you the context of what's been going on in my life. The fourth set of emotions pertains to sexuality. So in my facade self I would tell you that sexuality is a beautiful gift from God, that it's something created only to be shared with your soulmate. And I would probably tell you this very passionately. In fact I have told other people this very passionately; that I feel that our sexuality is created not just for the gender that we're attracted to but only for our soulmate, and that in the context of a loving soulmate relationship sexuality is this beautiful amazing thing. And the truth is I probably have some memories about that being the case.

Mary: But my facade self wants to hang on to the fact that this is how I am now. This is my soul condition now. That I believe this now and I know this now. And the truth is actually something really different. The truth is I'm really angry about my sexuality. I'm really in a rage with men about how I've been humiliated and degraded sexually. I really have a sense of powerlessness within me around my sexuality. I feel that it is a powerless place to be, open sexually to have other people connect with me sexually. I feel I have been made to feel powerless sexually a lot, especially in my first century life. And as a result there is a rebellion against that also inside of me and there is a huge desire in me for power and control sexually. I want power over men sexually. I want control of our sexual interactions. I don't even want to orgasm with a man unless I'm in control of it. [00:24:44.18]

Mary: Now my facade self really doesn't like that truth about me. My facade self judges that really strongly. In fact judges a lot of what I've just shared with you really strongly and says, "That is way not loving, Mary. That is yucky. That is a really yucky thing." And so what has been happening inside of me is almost like there has been a war going on between the truth of my damage at the moment and what my facade self wants to cling to as the truth about me. So every time that my damaged self hits up against the facade that I want to maintain, there's a rage. There's a rage that comes out of me. And this has been a lot of what I've been living in for four years. And it does pertain to my sleep state, which is where we're going to. This is all the background.

Mary: In fact when I first met AJ four years ago, a lot of these things were, if you like, sent into overdrive within me. Because I'd been living quite comfortably, although on reflection perhaps it wasn't quite so comfortable, but I feel I was in control of my facade before I met AJ. And some of you probably have this same feeling. And then I met AJ and of course he challenged a lot of my facade and I didn't like that. Hence I was really angry. But if I can rewind a little bit before then. [00:26:21.00]

8.5. Background information about Mary and AJ's relationship continued

Mary: I met AJ really briefly on a couple of occasions and we hardly exchanged two or three words. I think you've heard the background story of what happened then. I found out that he felt that he was my soulmate and so then me being me, I wanted to know what it was all about. The truth is my soul was already engaged in knowing that there was something going on here but I was pretty rebellious towards it. But I knew I couldn't leave this guy alone. So I tracked him down. I hunted him down and I said, "What's going on here?" And at this stage already I'm feeling inexplicably drawn and attracted to this man. I haven't even said two words to him and I've met him on a couple of occasions. So already I guess, this whole soul thing was being challenged and drawn. My real self was drawing me, I suppose, towards him but it immediately started to uncover my damage and shake my facade if you like.

Mary: He hadn't really said anything much at all at this point. And then we started to communicate and he really didn't say that much about me then either. We talked about my life and his life and in the course of that definitely issues of love and morality and different things were uncovered. And I was pretty rebellious - I think that's the right word, isn't it, babe? Rebellious against those thoughts at that time. When we eventually started a relationship, probably within a few weeks a lot of these emotions in my damaged self started to appear. All the rage that I had between the facade and the damage started to appear. It actually freaked me out.

Mary: One day we were engaging, kissing and stuff and I wanted to make love and AJ said, "Look I can't because I just feel like you're being a bit controlling," and I immediately went into a massive rage, saying to him, "You just think I'm a shameful dirty slut, don't you?" Now I had not ever connected with any of those emotions before in a conscious way. I've been living in the damage of them, the fact that I was carrying that feeling inside of myself but they came out of me in a huge tirade. And I actually had to go and lock myself in the bathroom and freak out because I thought, "Where did all that come from?" My facade was so well in place inside of me that I didn't think that anyone, least of all me, could think that I'm a dirty person. [00:29:16.28]

Mary: So a lot of this has been happening for a long time but I have really been in a state of wanting to maintain this facade. And I guess I'm sharing that with you because I feel that many of us are in that position. We really want to hold on to this idea of the person that we think that we are. Does anyone have any questions at this point? [00:29:53.27]

9. Audience questions

9.1. Mary's facade is an attempt to escape from her damage

Participant: Mary when you were talking about the facade it seemed like it was very intellectual?

Mary: Yeah, well it has to be, doesn't it? It's the thoughts that I have about the kind of person that mum and dad are going to love and so I'm trying to, with my thoughts and my mind and my intellect, direct my emotional condition and my life in a certain direction. But the truth is our soul is an emotional creation and it's going to dominate that whole... [00:30:33.11]

AJ: I feel for Mary her facade was very much what she actually believes in her real self but an attempt to avoid the damage.

Mary: Yeah I tried to allude to that before. The truth is my real self has been really perfected in love for a long time so I have a strong sense of what is loving and so my idea of what I want to be is actually quite loving. It's just that I don't want to acknowledge or feel the damage that is inside of me. If I can explain it, it is almost like a feeling of humiliation when you're so tuned to what is loving and then you realise how far you are from that loving state it feels abhorrent to myself. And so I feel that is why I've been perhaps so rigid in my facade. [00:31:46.04]

Mary: As AJ was talking earlier, I do have a lot of reflection about this intellectual course that the facade self would take us on, reflecting about the sleep state and how perhaps it's harder for us to maintain a facade in the sleep state. So often we end up acting out a lot of the emotions that we're avoiding in our awake state. But I was reflecting on the Natural Love Path versus the Divine Love Path and how difficult it must be to progress on the Natural Love Path while on Earth. [00:32:27.00]

Participant: You know how AJ said earlier that when we have those normal conversations we're in that intellectual place? I was wondering if that's why it never gets us into the damage and the actual emotions. [00:32:41.21]

Mary: You mean when we're just talking about the weather with each other?

Participant: Yeah. And we also talk about our emotions a bit like that. Like the intellectual view, so it's just the facade.

Mary: Yeah. It is. Well it is really in the facade because if you think about it, or if I feel about it, my facade is the presentation I give to the world. So sometimes I might be even saying different words. It's like if I got up here in a completely disconnected state and told you all about my sexual shame and all this stuff and my heart wasn't there, I'd still be in my facade. So I'd still be buffering you. So it's my prayer to do it differently today. [00:33:31.02]

9.2. Mary has a stronger sense of real love because she is reincarnated

Participant: Did I understand that right that because you have being reincarnated you have a true sense of your real self so your actual facade is your real self but you're skipping over all your damaged self to a certain extent?

Mary: Sort of. The truth is though there are errors in my facade because of growing up. It's related to the sense I have of my real self, which is not complete by any means. It's more like a memory because if I need to get through my damage to get to my real self. But also my facade is also heavily influenced by my parents in this life, my Earthly parents' perception of what is a loving person and what will get me love from them. And for the majority of you, your facade is based around that. What I learnt from my parents about how I could get love from them and approval from them. So it's actually a combination. [00:34:36.05]

Participant: But because you had such a real sense of yourself you could probably draw on more of that to build your facade?

Mary: I suppose, yeah. Well there's a strong sense of how I should be inside of me. It's very rigid at times and I also feel this is why I'm so prone to self punishment because I'm so rigid about what I should be like, what is loving. I know it's the truth and I want to punish myself about that. [00:35:12.00]

Participant: So just with the emotions that you've listed there, your facade self keeps you from feeling the true damage about these particular emotions. Are these the same emotions that actually stop us from remembering what we're doing in our sleep state? [00:35:35.14]

Mary: So this is what I'm getting to. It is. These four sets of emotions that I've outlined are specifically for the context of what I'm about to share with you about what I've been doing in my sleep state. However if you remember, I talked about the four sets of emotions and what my facade self wants to believe is the truth and what is actually the truth, and they're quite separate. So when I go to sleep and I take actions in my damaged self and I wake up my facade is all ready, just wanting to completely deny my damaged self, going, "No, this is the truth, my facade self is the truth." And so because there's that strong, "I'm not going to remember any of that because I don't want to. I want my facade self to be the truth." [00:36:23.19]

Mary: So this is why anything we're avoiding in our awake state, and why AJ and I've linked the facade self with the sleep state experience so strongly; because if we're addicted to facade there's a high likelihood we're acting out our damaged self in our sleep state and we're not going to want to know because we're addicted to the facade. The more we can break down this facade using those qualities that AJ talked about yesterday, the more open we're going to be to remembering. [00:36:59.05]

Participant: So basically we're all addicted to our facade because none of us remember our sleep state.

Mary: Pretty much, yep. That's the truth.

9.3. Damage to the soul in the sleep state is the same as damage to the soul in the awake state

Participant: So is there a sphere you get to where you just cannot maintain the facade anymore? Because you've grown in three years still, like you've gotten to a certain sphere? [00:37:28.00]

Mary: I don't know. I feel that the last couple of weeks have shown me a lot about where I haven't grown and where I've grown on the Natural Love Path. I feel there are changes in my soul definitely and there's more of a relationship with God than there was three years ago because I kind of was in a black hole with God for the thirty years before that. But I feel really what I've learnt about myself is how much I'm still invested in the facade and how I've actually been damaging my soul and my soulmate in the sleep state. It's the one soul. This is the thing. When we go to sleep it's still our same soul and the actions I take there are just as real as the ones I take in my awake state.

Mary: I feel I've grown because, on the morning driving back from yoga I had a heartfelt prayer for truth from God. That was growth because I didn't want it before that point. And as I'll talk about in a minute AJ and I had even discussed certain things relating to this truth that I uncovered before then and I completely resisted it. I went intellectual. I said it was a dream. And so my growth I feel is in that I desire truth.

10. Mary describes her experiences in the sleep state continued

Mary: So let's go to the point where I walk in the door and AJ say something to me. So, you know about this background context now of the fact that I'm living in denial of a lot of shame. I want power and control over men so I can avoid my powerless feelings sexually. I want to believe I've got all this integrity but the truth is I want to avoid my dark emotions so I can't have any. And I'm also angry at God, not just the concept that I can have a soulmate that I might lose and that will make me grief stricken, but also the sense of powerlessness that I have in our relationship. Not because he has power over me but because I can't bloody control the attraction I have to this man. I've tried, you know, I've been in a rage with him and I still want him badly. And so that makes me feel incredibly powerless. "I can't define myself now, God."

Mary: The truth of all of this is that I can't define myself. All of our efforts in our facade are attempts to define ourselves, to say, "I want this life. I will be this person. I'm going to do this thing." And the truth that I came to in the course of this few weeks was actually really beautiful, and that is that really the hard work's been done for me. God has created a beautiful person, a really wonderful person with really unique qualities and characteristics with a huge desire and passion, who's just going to be creative if she can just be herself.

Mary: So, in my facade I'm working really hard all the time to be a good person. "What are my goals? What am I going to do? How am I going to get that done?" And it's all the really hard work that I'm maintaining all in an effort just to avoid my pain when if I just let go and feel my pain I don't have to make myself anything. I just have to return to the self that God made me and then I'm going to be really happy. I don't have to figure out what's going to make me happy, I just have to engage my desires, be willing to feel my pain and then I'm going to be at my real self. [00:41:10.17]

Mary: I forgot where I was going with that but that was a beautiful thing to realise. So I'm praying my prayer for truth. "I want to feel my soul, God. I really want truth. Bring me the biggest truth you can bring me." And I walked in the door and I said, "How are you going, babe? I'm still going through my stuff at yoga. It feels pretty full on." And he said, "I'm feeling really upset because I feel like you've been with someone else in the sleep state." Now my facade is pretty upset about that. That's not something that I would do. But perhaps because I was feeling a little more humble, I sat on the kitchen floor and asked God for the truth about that and I asked my guides for the truth about that. And I got a big "yes".

Mary: And that was really hard. It was hard to say that to AJ as well. And it triggered all of my shame that I've been trying to avoid for that long. And at that point we kind of went into lockdown. We didn't really leave the cottage for about 3 days and I just really asked God to help me heal what was going on. And so I channelled a lot in those few days and I guess because I kept praying for truth, I kept having more and more realisations about what was really happening in my sleep state.

Mary: And this is the powerful thing about desiring truth; I realised how much I've been avoiding truth in this process. I want to give a talk in a couple of months about what I call the real holy trinity, which is truth, love and humility. And I've been pretty hot on that for a little while but I realise that the love and humility thing was really what I was focusing on. I didn't actually want the truth because I was addicted to my facade. I love God's Truth, that's fine. I'll talk to you about that all day. But with my damage, I've got so much shame and pain in my damaged self, I didn't want it. And I want to encourage you guys to really open your heart and ask God for truth if you want this process. If you want this connection with God, ask God about truth. Want it from your heart, you know, because in the course of those few days a lot of truth became known to me and it wasn't just that I'd cheated on AJ once in the sleep state. It was that for most of my life since adolescence in this life, I have been involved in a lot of sexually immoral and deviant things in the sleep state with a lot of different people, with a lot of different spirits and with people in spirit form. [00:44:25.17]

10.1. Rebelling against feelings of powerlessness, shame and loss

Mary: And I want to talk a bit more about that. So I found that the truth was that because of my feelings of powerlessness, and rebellion at a sense of powerlessness, that I've been involved in a lot of sexual practices that involve me having power over other people and feeling very powerful. The second thing was in rebellion to my shame that I have wanted to almost become shameless and to rebel against my shame so much that nothing will shame me. And so I would be involved in all kinds of things that many people would find quite shameful and immoral. And the third thing was the rebellion against the huge feelings of loss that are inside of me about losing my soulmate and my anger about love, specifically about romantic love between soulmates.

Mary: Because of the level of pain that I have inside of me about the loss of that love I feel really angry at God about love, and I also feel that love isn't possible. When I met AJ I used to make fun of romantic movies. I'd be like, "Oh yeah, whatever. In Hollywood." That was my feeling. It's not possible between people. It's not possible to be happy. There's always going to be pain. There's always going to be compromise. It's always going to be tough. And I was really angry to the point where I was sarcastic and bitter about the concept of romantic love. Now I understand that a lot of that comes from the feelings of pain that I'm avoiding inside of myself. Many of you have this same feeling towards romantic love. Your facade self wants to believe that it's a truth but inside the damage is saying, "No, f... that. That's not real and I'm really hurting that that's not real. I'm really hurting that I feel like that's not possible for me anymore."

Mary: So because of these emotions - the anger about love, the rebellion against my shame, and the rebellion against the sense of powerlessness, especially sexual powerlessness, I've been engaged in a lot of sexual practices that are either to do with me having power and feeling shameless and actually more recently with people actually abusing me sexually because I feel so bad and have a lot self judgement about myself. So I've been a willing participant in people actually harming me and hurting me sexually. So that's been happening for a good 15 years and in the past four it's probably intensified because my sense of rebellion against these things has increased as my facade has been challenged.

Mary: Also as I met AJ my anger about love and about the loss of him became directed at him. I wanted to punish him sexually because that is something that does really hurt him. I've wanted to punish him through these practices so it's actually gotten worse. And my shame has been more triggered and my sense of powerlessness, both in terms of fear but also in terms of this inexplicable attraction and not being able to control the course of my life because of what my soul wants to do, not my head, they've all increased and so the rebellion, and these practices have really increased. Are there any questions?

10.1.1. AJ was aware of Mary's actions in her sleep state

Participant: Was AJ aware of what was going on in the sleep state for most of that?

Mary: We had talked on a number of occasions. He had had that feeling before and I've also had pretty intense dreams as well, some of which I now feel are sleep state experiences and some of them are dreams. So often I would have sexualised dreams with other people and we would talk about that in the morning. AJ has long had the feeling that I've been doing these sorts of things but because I'm so addicted to my facade I really wouldn't even consider that because it's abhorrent to me.

Mary: When I asked God for the biggest truth and I got this and I had to feel it as a truth. It wasn't just a concept outside of me, I really felt like this is my worst possible nightmare that I'm actually this kind of person because of the amount of judgement that I have and that's an issue in itself. So yes, AJ was aware.

Mary: Before I began my relationship with AJ I'd been in a relationship with a man who was basically sexually shameless. He'd been involved in a lot of threesomes and with prostitutes and had a lot of sex with a lot of people in quite immoral ways oftentimes. And even though my facade would say, "I'm not attracted to that kind of man," I was very attracted to him and for a lot of reasons because he helped me avoid my shame. He also was prone really to violence, even if it was just emotional violence and because of my sexual terror, even though my facade would say, "I'm a pacifist, I want to be with a pacifist," I was really attracted to a guy who I thought would physically harm somebody else if I was sexually threatened. He had a strong sense of sexual ownership over me. [00:52:01.02]

Mary: Even when I had engaged in the relationship with AJ I was really still engaged in a relationship with this man. I was still attracted to him. We still had contact via the internet and I feel we had relationship in the sleep state as well now. So AJ could feel all of that going on at the time and AJ said he's happy to talk about some of his feelings about this as well afterwards if you like. [00:52:30.19]

Participant: Mary just listening to you talk about the actions that you take because of these emotions of powerless and your desire to rebel, is it like then our way of controlling avoiding the damaged self as well in the sleep state? [00:52:56.20]

Mary: Totally. So the facade is here to control the damage...

Participant: ... when we're awake.

Mary: Yeah. And remember I said at the beginning whenever my facade is challenged and I feel a little bit of the damage, anger ensues because I want the control back. I want the control back. And when we go into the sleep state, the anger's still there. The anger is what we're acting out in. And unless we're willing to be humble to the damage in the awake state it's very unlikely we're going to be humble to it in the sleep state.

Participant: With regards to the third emotion that you've listed, loss, obviously you have a first century life that none of have had but I can relate to anger about love.

Mary: That's what I said. I feel many people here have that feeling.

Participant: Can you give me an example then of behaviour that we would potentially enact in and ensue in because of this anger about love? I felt that you really explained your loss and your anger about love because of the loss. [00:53:58.08]

Mary: Okay. So I'm angry about loss and I'm angry about love so I want to prove that love isn't possible in my sleep state. So in a relationship I want to prove to you, "No, love isn't possible. See? This is what's happening. This is what I can do." And many of you women have this feeling, wanting the man to prove that he loves us and it is a part of the anger. It's not a loving state we're in, we're not being open and humble and willing to give and share, we're like, "No, you prove to me because I've been hurt before." And so in the sleep state we can do all kinds of things sexual or otherwise to a soulmate or a partner in that emotion. [00:54:46.29]

10.2. It is possible to work on our emotions in our sleep state and our awake state

Participant: Oh, Mary thanks for sharing. It's big stuff. If we're damaging our soul more in our sleep state, when we become aware of that can we only correct that damage to our soul back in our sleep state or we only just have to work on the emotion that's causing that damage in our awake state? Can we work on that damage in our sleep state as well? [00:55:34.24]

Mary: Yes, certainly. We can, and I feel I am right now in my sleep state. A lot has changed in the past few weeks in terms of what's happening in my sleep state and we both feel that change. But the key was that I had to be willing to face the facade and the damage in my awake state. While I was resisting that in my awake state, nothing was changing in my sleep state. Repentance is repentance anywhere, and so I have a lot of focused prayer. It's the one soul, whether you're awake or asleep, so I recognise that in myself there's a lot of repentance to go through in terms of the way that I have been out of integrity and immoral, and really harming my soulmate and my own soul. But also for 15 years I've been involved with other people who are in their addiction and I've been helping them in their addictions. So that is all stuff I need to be aware of in the awake state. [00:56:39.29]

Participant: AJ said this morning that we can study in our sleep state, so if we went with the intention in our sleep state and a whole hearted desire and longing for truth could we correct and repent in our sleep state?

Mary: Yes, that's possible but don't think you can do that and avoid it in our your awake state.

Participant: No, I'm fully aware of that!

Mary: You've got to really want the truth in your awake state otherwise it's not really a truth about your soul anyway.

10.3. How Mary gained the awareness of what was happening in her sleep state

AJ: Babe, can you explain perhaps to people how you set up the awareness in your sleep state of becoming aware of all this in your awake state? [00:57:51.26]

Mary: Yes, okay. Gosh, guys, this is so yucky. So I channelled Rachel, my guide, and Tim, her soulmate, quite a lot in these few days and as I did that I began to be aware of the fact that I already knew this, that I was doing this in the sleep state anyway. I knew this and this is why I felt so icky. It was even impairing our awake state relationship because I was actually having increasing senses of shame. It wasn't decreasing. And so a lot of things really lined up for me when I did the channelling and really started to feel. I felt like, "No, I'm not basing this on a channelling. I'm basing this on an awareness now that I have inside of myself."

Mary: I'd been involved in a lot of stuff about being sexually powerful for a long time and actually, guys, I don't know if you're probably very aware that I'm portrayed in a lot of modern literature as a high priestess of sexual healing. Mary Magdalene is this person who was ordained in some kind of order in the first century and healed people sexually and initiated men through sex. There's a lot of literature out there about that. And part of what I'm recognising is that some of that has been influenced by the actual sexual practices that I have been engaged in, in the last 15 years. And I hate saying that because there's still a lot of a feeling about that anyway, about the largeness of that. I feel like it's a bit grandiose but I actually feel that that's partly the truth anyway. So Rachel's talking to me about the fact that I've been involved in this for a long time and that has actually influenced different movements on the planet. There are a lot of movements out there who believe you should have sex to connect to God.

Mary: Anyway recently after AJ and I came back from Greece and we lived separately for a couple of months, I really worked on this idea of a soulmate. And I did do some grieving and I did do some repenting about stuff that I've done in the past in this life and I started to develop more of a flicker of a pure desire for my soulmate. And Rachel related to me that at that time I really disengaged from these powerful practices in the sleep state of engaging with people in terms of power. But I was still involved, because of the sense of shame and the judgement and feeling really horrible about myself, I was still engaged with men abusing me sexually and me being involved in desiring that in the sleep state. But that recently I'd actually come to a place in my sleep state where I felt like I can't do this anymore, it's enough. I really want change and growth. So similar to the prayer that I'd had to God that morning about, "I really want truth," in my sleep state I'd reached this point where I went, "No, I really want something different," and that I'd actually come to AJ in the sleep state and talked to him about the fact that I wanted this to change. And so we had agreed that we would deal with this in the awake state, and so that is what we did. [01:01:56.24]

Mary: And in the weeks that have ensued there has been much more of an awareness now of us being more together in the sleep state. At times me not wanting him to be near me but just around me because I'm feeling so much shame and all kinds of different inter-relations that we're now feeling in the sleep state. Whereas before we were very separated because I was wanting that. This is why I think AJ appears in your dreams a lot more than I do. This has been very humbling for me to recognise where my soul is actually at in terms of progression. Everyone's a bit freaked out, yeah? [01:02:51.04]

10.4. Physical sensations associated with remembering and grieving sexual experiences

Participant: Mary in your recollection of these experiences in the sleep state, are those experiences just with your spirit body and you feel them also in your physical body?

Mary: I feel the emotion in my physical body, yeah. But it's like remembering something that's happened so I'm grieving the memory of that. Is that what you're asking? [01:03:21.20]

Participant: I'm more asking about in your memories of those sexual experiences...

Mary: Do I have a physical sensation happening? No.

Participant: Okay.

Mary: No. It's possible that I'm not tuning in. It's like a memory of something that's happened sexually. So I'm not experiencing that in my body at the time. If I were then I would feel that I'm having an exchange with a spirit at that moment. [01:03:57.25]

Participant: No it's... I'm relating it to...

Mary: If I were having the physical sensations of it happening to me as I'm processing I feel it would be happening at that moment. I mean, as we connect to different memories in our childhood and things that have happened in our sleep state and our childhood we might have a physical sensation in our body, for sure. But if it really feels like an actual thing, an exchange that is happening right then, then I would be wondering if that's a spirit experience occurring at that moment. Does everyone understand the difference that I'm talking about there? Do you, Di? [01:04:38.02]

Participant: No, not really.

Mary: No.

Participant: If I can say what I'm feeling like?

Mary: Yeah.

Participant: Okay. I've been feeling like, in the last couple of months that possibly I'm having these sexual experiences in the spirit state and that I've, you know, got a spirit particularly around me who is pretty engaged with me. And then sometimes in the mornings I might wake up feeling sexual and so I'm wondering whether that's a remnant experience of what I've been engaged in. [01:05:27.22]

Mary: I feel it's probably that you've been engaged with that spirit sexually and you're waking up from that experience still feeling that. Now your spirit body has come into you physical body and you're feeling it in your physical body. [01:05:41.11]

Participant: Thanks.

Mary: Okay.

10.5. Working through sexual shame

Participant: Mary, just recently I watched the love and sex DVDs again and I remember you and AJ sharing then about most of us women having sexual shame, and you processing through some of that sexual shame. I guess my question is, because that was a couple of years ago I think, what have you been processing through if...?

Mary: Well the truth is I have processed some sexual shame back then, but because I'm still in rebellion about a lot of the core feelings I'm creating more shame Dee in my sleep state. So I can't actually be getting through it. But the truth is also that because of my investment in my facade I haven't been processing that much sexual shame. I've touched it here and there and I have processed some of it but because of my unwillingness to really open up to who I am, to what I've done and the damage that's inside of me, I've been still acting in rebellion against it in my sleep state and therefore increasing the level of shame that I have. [01:07:09.27]

Participant: And I guess there are different levels too that you can actually open up into and feel the depth of?

Mary: Absolutely, yeah. Like I do feel that we need to be careful. We say, "Yeah, I was processing whatever." Sometimes we're touching a feeling. Sometimes we're touching what the facade self will let us touch, the comfortable part of that emotion. So I've allowed myself to feel ashamed of my body, of my vagina, a few of those kinds of feelings. I haven't let myself connect to it until very recently and I still have a lot of work to do on what I have done with other people that I feel ashamed about. And the feelings of shame I've felt as a result of abuse also. So I felt it about my body but I haven't been willing to open up into why I feel it about my body, if you like. So what's underneath there, which is what I've done and what people have done to me and really go into those experiences. [01:08:16.15]

Participant: So a lot of my anger is because of this shame and pain and powerlessness?

Mary: Yeah, the unwillingness to just feel those feelings. We want to cling to the facade and go, "I'm angry that I can't be the way I want my facade to be. I can't feel the feeling my facade self wants to feel."

Participant: And my anger at men as well? Or is that actually in some of the damage, my anger at these things having happened to me?

Mary: I feel that they're in the damaged self. There is definitely going to be some anger at men but ultimately the anger is still the layer above the sense of powerlessness, the sense of hurt. Also you need to be careful about anger with men because sometimes it's the sense of entitlement you have with men that creates the rage. "They should be doing this and they're not," and that's all about addiction. This is where we have to be really aware of the truth, like we have to want the truth of what's really happening emotionally for us. Otherwise our facade self is going to be tempted to say, "I'm angry because of these three things that I'm uncomfortable about," and it's not anything to do with those 5 things that I might judge. [01:09:39.21]

10.6. Morality needs to be learnt at the soul level before we behave with integrity

Participant: I'm a bit confused about morality because on this path, as you learn stuff intellectually and in your soul, you learn what's moral and what's not. So, while we're awake, there's no way we would do something because I feel at least in some areas I've learnt that that's not loving inside of me. But is that just in some areas, or is that a facade? I mean, do you have to break down all of your facade to stop wanting to act out your damaged self in the spirit world? Or do you learn certain levels of morality and then you're less likely to engage in those kinds of things? [01:10:40.17]

AJ: I'm happy to answer that. The reality is for the majority of us that when we say we've learned morality we've yet to learn anything about morality because we've only intellectualised morality. And we've yet to remove the emotion in us that actually allows us to have that morality enter our heart. It's not until the morality enters your heart that you will actually have any integrity to the morality that you say you have in your awake state. [01:11:22.10]

Mary: I agree. That's what I was going to say and also that; like with my example about integrity, I felt that I had a lot of sexual integrity. I wasn't sleeping with other people in the awake state, but I've certainly sexually projected at people in the awake state. So that's showing me that I haven't made a moral shift yet. So I feel that you make the moral shift around sexuality emotionally you're not ever going to sexually project at anyone except your soulmate. [01:11:58.12]

10.7. Qualities we need in order to act with integrity in the sleep and awake states

Participant: So when you break down the facade self is when you'll stop acting out these things in your sleep state?

Mary: Yeah. There's two parts of that answer. You can break down the facade in certain areas. Be willing to see certain things about yourself and then you're not going to act out in your facade or in avoidance of your damaged self. Because remember what I'm talking about here is the avoidance of my damaged self. If I were embracing my damaged self I'd be doing none of these things in the sleep state. It's not my damage that causing me to do these things. It's not the fact that I feel powerless sexually or that I carry a lot of sexual shame. It's my rebellion against those things that causing me to act out. So be careful about labelling it your damaged self. It is an acting out, or a rebellion against the damaged self, that's causing me to act in those ways. And certainly I can break down the facade and be willing to feel and see and whole area of my damaged self in the awake state and so in the sleep state I'll have the same feelings. What's the second part of your question? [01:13:21.22]

Participant: It was do you need to break down the whole of the facade to stop acting out the rebellion?

Mary: Well, yeah. You have to be willing to not be in rebellion on that area to stop acting out in it in the awake state as well.

AJ: It's about those qualities that we listed yesterday in the talk "The Human Soul - The Facade Self"; including the quality of integrity and desire for truth. So you can still have a lot of your facade in place but if you have a desire for truth, a desire for integrity, a longing to know, trust in God, trust in what God's created, having faith, all of those qualities, then that causes you to not go into rebellion because you have so much integrity you're not going to choose in rebellion. You're going to choose to feel the damage instead. It's only when you don't have that integrity and the desire for truth, the desire for growth, and all those things, that you want to avoid the damage and that causes you to rebel. Then of course once you rebel you're going to act out all of your damage in the rebellion. [01:14:28.01]

Qualities we need to not rebel against our damaged self

Mary: This is what's been very humbling for me to recognise. My facade thinks I've got all of these things when in reality I've had to face that I haven't had much desire for truth or integrity, and not really any faith or trust in God that if I deal with these emotions they'll be gone. And perhaps that... it's pretty bleak.

Qualities that Mary was lacking

10.8. Being a strongly independent woman is a form of anger and rebellion towards soulmates and God

Participant: I'm finding this really difficult so I keep coming and going. I'm just getting confused around independence. Is that just another form of rebellion or in that state is there anger? And, you know how you can describe someone as being strongly independent and in doing that is there actually a lot of anger and shutting down or...?

Mary: Yeah. Well if you think about it, if we weren't in rebellion against anything and we were in connection with our real selves we'd be in connection with God as well and in that state we don't want to be independent of God really. There's not a desire in us to portray ourselves as an independent person. We know ourselves, we act in our own desires but we also have this huge respect for God and the fact that we're part of God's creation. I don't know if you want to add to that, babe, but I feel there is a lot of anger in the desire for independence. [01:16:21.08]

AJ: Yeah I agree. Not only that a lot of anger towards the whole concept of soulmates in that whole concept.

Mary: Absolutely because this is the issue that I'm trying to relate about the soulmate relationship is that there is a sense of "I'm not me anymore". This is me. And so this is self reliance. I've really been facing this self reliance injury that is so in all of us; this desire for self definition and, "I will create who I am and what I do," and all of those things, and really all of that is about independence. It's also about rebellion against God and the way God created our souls to operate. God didn't create us to be under anyone else, but He certainly didn't create us to be alone and in control all of the time. He created this beautiful connection.

Participant: So that's possibly like a block that we have?

Mary: It's an anger. Yeah.

11. Developing the soul qualities needed to break down the facade self

Participant: I just wanted to ask a question about the development of those qualities that were written up on the board yesterday. Generally it's a gradual process developing those qualities? [01:17:58.01]

Qualities we need to develop to break through our facade

Mary: Yeah.

Participant: But is there a truth in that you can, through sheer will and a certain type of prayer, solidify those qualities very quickly into your being to deal with these big issues?

Mary: Yes. I feel so. I hope that I'm in that process right now. I feel that it's really possible to do that very quickly. Even just opening myself to one true desire for truth has opened me up to a whole heap of other things that have the potential to make me committed to integrity, have faith in God, trust in God's process, really desire more and more growth. And that's kind of the beautiful thing that I was trying to relate earlier about how life changing it can be to desire truth because if you're willing to just confront that fear about the truth and really want it in your life I feel that things can progress really rapidly. I feel that already things are changing a lot more rapidly for me. [01:19:26.05]

AJ: I feel, Josh, that Mary's probably made the most progress that she's ever made since I've known her in the last two and a half weeks. And it's been because of her having this really strong desire, particularly the strong desire for truth probably, that's been the thing. Because we had to talk about integrity after that and she's been building her faith and trust in God as well. Before when it came to any emotion, it was almost like, if the emotion got too big for her, she would then just give up on the emotion. So just walk away from the emotion and not have any faith that actually you can get through it and it can be released from you.

AJ: So I feel that Mary had been growing some faith and trust in God over that period of time. She's been growing in her desire for truth over the period of time. Over the last four years there's been a lot of anger coming from her towards myself and we discussed the anger and it's cause, but then Mary would slip into the natural love way of dealing with the anger, which was, "I'm not allowed to be angry now. I've got to deal with this some other way." And so after a while we'd be able to have a discussion about the emotion without Mary getting angry but the problem is nothing would change still in our life. And so that would indicate that the underlying soul changes were not being made. [01:21:01.04]

Participant: So that's modifying behaviour because I feel that I do that too.

AJ: Exactly.

Mary: That's the Natural Love Path.

AJ: And to be frank I did the same thing at the beginning of my own progression. I tried to modify my behaviour for the first few years of my own progression rather than actually dealing with the underlying soul reasons why I had that behaviour. And then I had to come to terms with exactly what Mary's having to come to terms with now, that I wasn't actually on the Divine Love Path really yet. And I went through this whole change which caused me to be very focused then on, "Unless I feel the emotion of this, I'm not going to heal it no matter how much I try to be different."

AJ: The whole process of trying to be different causes its own problems. It causes you to actually exhaust yourself with your emotions to a degree. So you've basically got this emotion pulling you in this direction and at the same time you're trying to move in this direction and the further that gap gets the harder it becomes. So you're actually now going to feel a greater state of exhaustion. And I feel that's one of God's ways of showing us that actually we're heading in the wrong direction.

11.1. Learning to embrace our damage

AJ: We need to stop trying to change things from the effect perspective and look at the causal reason why, which we need to change. And while we're living in this facade or we're living in rebellion of the damage we are not changing the causal emotional reason why a certain action takes place. And it takes a bit to make those transitions.

AJ: See my life now is very different to the first century. I didn't notice a lot in the first century when it came to what was necessary to come from a condition of sin into at-onement with God. I didn't have that experience in the first century so I didn't really understand how people could shift from sin into at-onement with God and what they needed to embrace in that process. Whereas now in this experience I've had a lot of experience now in what is necessary for you to become at-one with God from a condition of sin, and one of the primary things that is necessary is a process of embracing your damage; actually fully embracing it as emotions rather than intellectualising it, rather than talking about it even.

AJ: You'll notice that generally I don't talk very much about my emotions except from a teaching perspective and the reason why is because I just feel it's really pointless talking about it. In fact I've said to Mary quite frequently that every time I'm asked to talk to somebody about my emotion, it actually feels like I'm actually degrading the experience. That's what it feels like to me now. So I'm much happier to have my own experience without having to talk about it because I can feel the experience more fully as a result, and I feel that's a part of that process of learning to embrace this damage. It's not your real self but without embracing it, it will not flow from you. Without loving it, it will not flow from you. And as I said to Mary during this process that she's been through, you need to come to love what's inside of you no matter what it is, and part of loving what's inside of you no matter what it is, is being aware and willing to feel what's inside of you no matter what it is. So if it's rage, be willing to feel that rage. If it's this terrible feeling about love, that love's pointless and all those kind of things, just feel that feeling. We need to feel these feelings to feel these damages to work our way through them. Many of us are still thinking we can talk about them and intellectually embrace them without actually feeling the damage of it, inside of our heart. And it's only the feeling that is going to cause us to progress. [01:25:26.21]

Participant: I guess my question was just because everyone is attracted here because they have a desire for truth.

AJ: Exactly.

Participant: But it's about strengthening that desire. We've all at times had that and made some sort of progress but my question was how to solidify that and just keep going? [01:25:51.09]

AJ: You're dead right - you can do that with the facade but you need a lot of prayer to do that and self reflection.

11.2. The analogy of a foundation built on stone

AJ: Self reflection isn't a discussion with somebody else. Self reflection is feelings that you need to work your way through yourself, by yourself generally with God, in terms of coming to terms with, "Do I really have a desire for truth? Do I really have integrity? Do I really have these things?" And, "Do I want them?" for a start. And if you do want them, generate within yourself a desire and passion to have them and to learn about them and actually live them. And that is certainly an essential part of anybody's foundation, I feel, of their progression.

AJ: There's a lot of stuff that was paraphrased in the Bible in terms of things I referred to, but in the Bible I referred to a foundation built on solid ground. A foundation built on stone as compared to a foundation built on sand. And what I was illustrating was the difference between the Natural Love and the Divine Love Paths. See on the Natural Love Path we have a foundation built on sand because it's all intellectual effort, control and an attempt to ignore what's really within us. So our foundation's built on sand. When a wind comes along, any stress, any external stress comes along, bang! We're gone. We're back to where we were before. And many of you have experienced that through your life on other paths.

AJ: On the Divine Love Path, you've got to build the foundation on stone and part of the foundation of stone are these qualities.

AJ: These are all the qualities that are part of this foundation of stone that we've got to build on, and once we've built on this foundation that's hard as rock, now wind will come along, some kind of external stress will come along and we won't shift. And it won't matter how extreme the stress is either. We will not shift. And it's not because we're stubborn. It's because these things, these qualities are not within us and we can't get them out of us anymore, we can't even, not live by them anymore. It's automatic. And that's where we need to get to. [01:28:10.01]

Mary: I feel that a lot of us have lost the feeling of beauty that comes from having integrity and having these wonderful qualities. I can just relate to my own experience. My facade self really wanted to say I've got a lot of integrity because I see that as a very good and loving quality but when I was faced with a situation where I needed to feel rather than react or punish, the feeling in me was, "The damage is too hurtful and too painful. It's hard to have integrity." And it was almost like a feeling of disdain towards integrity.

Mary: What I feel at the moment is that there's so much beauty in integrity that you will feel, when you step into it, and I have just briefly stepped into it, that we've lost the memory of that feeling. I think we felt that once and it's because of the fear of the damage within us that we feel like it's not a good thing anymore. Like a lot of you feel like saying the truth and being in truth is a hardship, and really the truth is that it's not, it's beautiful, but we've lost the feeling of that; we feel like it's a duty rather than when you actually do it, it feels like a gift to yourself and to other people. [01:29:45.10]

12. Mary describes her experiences in the sleep state continued

12.1. AJ's perspective on his relationship with Mary

Participant: Mary I just want to say thank you. It really feels like a gift for you to share your experience with us and I also wanted to ask AJ was it a physical feeling when Mary said that you had approached and said, "I feel that you've been with someone else"? Could you describe that feeling to me? [01:30:15.20]

AJ: Well I've had that feeling all through the four years of our relationship actually, and I've discussed it with Mary on quite a lot of occasions. But Mary felt quite differently that she hadn't been having a relationship in the sleep state. She did recognise that she's been having dreams involving other people sexually but she just felt that was about emotions that she was having to deal with in the awake state that she wasn't dealing with. We also, during that time, discussed a lot about the different emotions that I felt Mary was not allowing herself to feel and we would often discuss things like Mary's willingness to actually address an issue. So what would often happen is that an issue would come up. We'd discuss the issue but there was no emotional connection in Mary with the issue, and that would concern me greatly because while there's no emotion there's no healing. So Mary would feel that she'd dealt with the issue and I'm feeling like, "No I don't feel you have dealt with this issue." So for example when we first met, within a few days Mary was in this really extreme rage with me about stuff that she felt I did in the first century. The first sets of rage were all to do with my death in the first century. [01:31:42.18]

Mary: Loss. It's that anger and loss.

AJ: There's all that anger at love and loss. And she was just in extreme rage with me, yelling at me and saying all of these things that I left her, and I chose to leave her, and I didn't value her. And she didn't even realise at the time why all this stuff was coming out of her mouth. [01:32:01.02]

Mary: Which is another reason why I shut it all down probably.

AJ: Yeah. She was frightened.

Mary: I felt insane.

AJ: Yeah.

Participant: Mary, if you're angry with AJ but you're not saying anything, is it a feeling that you know she's angry with you? [01:32:15.26]

AJ: It's worse for me if Mary is angry without saying anything than it is if she's angry and she actually says it. The other day I just said to her, "Look, darling, you're really angry with me. You need to say what you're angry with me about." And then when she started allowing herself to connect to it, it was all just stuff like saying how I shame Mary all the time.

Mary: Probably something I had forgotten to talk about is the feeling I have about the discrepancy in our condition that I've always had since we met, especially in the sleep state because it's so noticeable. And so I've had all this rage, a feeling that I'm just humiliated just by the state of AJ comparatively to mine.

AJ: So Mary has felt humiliated just being next to me in the sleep state.

Mary: And sometimes in the awake state.

AJ: Sometimes in the awake state too. But in the sleep state in particular the difference in condition is very noticeable and Mary has been in a rage about it because she views my different condition as a humiliation of herself. And because of the anger, she then wants to pull me down to that condition. So she'd been taking actions in her sleep state in particular, but also in the awake state too, to attempt to pull me down as much as she possibly could.

AJ: In fact one of the reasons why I raised those issues with her is because I've been feeling a group of spirits with her who are just doing her bidding towards myself. And so the group of spirits have been attacking me and I still feel quite sad about the fact that Mary had been sort of leading a group of spirits in this process of wanting to attack me, just to pull myself down and pull my condition down. And I'm open to the attack because of a couple of things. There's a desire for my relationship with Mary but also there's this openness to being attacked by women, in particular attacked from my soulmate. I know I'm not open to be attacked by women much anymore but I'm still very open to being attacked by my soulmate and I've got to heal that because I need to get to the point where I'm not open to that attack anymore either.

Participant: From a soulmate relationship perspective, Mary, if you stop just feeling angry with AJ and then you start saying what you're feeling angry about, is that an opportunity for you to both grow in love? [01:34:58.23]

AJ: Yes, definitely. It's been really, really good actually.

Mary: The problem has been with my facade. "I'm not angry. I can't feel that. I can't say that."

AJ: And the problem I've had with Mary through the four years is her facade too. Like I'm saying to her constantly, darling...

Mary: You've often said to me, "It's not really that attractive. I like you're real self."

AJ: I like the damaged self even better than the facade that she created. I said to Mary at one point, "This Mary Luck person that you try to portray to everybody, she's not very nice actually and she's particularly not very nice to myself. And I'd prefer the damaged girl; you know who might have to cry a bit and feels ashamed and so forth." To me she's a lot softer person obviously. And this is the trouble; the egg shell is hard. And when you engage the egg shell in a person you feel the hardness of it. And I'm pretty sensitive to that now but in particular sensitive to it with Mary. I've had to work through quite a lot of grief through this whole process of course. I've had four years of feeling these things happening. So I've had a lot of grief in that four years time. We've had quite a number of separations during that time and I could feel during that time Mary's rage. And I'd frequently say to Mary, "Look darling, you're just in a real anger with me and you just need to start telling me what you're angry about with me." [01:36:27.07]

Mary: The issue has been me trying in the facade to fix it and also only dealing with things that I feel comfortable with. Someone asked if I'd grown. I feel like I've grown in some small ways in some other areas in the last four years, possibly more in some areas than a little bit. But in terms of our relationship there is so much pain there and so much resistance to that pain and so much of my facade that doesn't want to accept the pain, because it's scary or irrational or I judge it as really unloving, that it's just kept us so stuck and blocked. To me even owning what I'm really angry about, like the whole anger at love, the feeling of powerlessness, that was somewhere I didn't want to go. [01:37:24.01]

AJ: There is one area where I feel Mary has made huge advances in the last four years. When I met her she was so heavily invested in other people's opinion of her that it was impossible for her to even have an opinion of herself. So she was not invested in my opinion of her ironically because of all the rage that she had towards me. But she was invested in everybody else's opinion of her. And many of her emotions got triggered over that period of time of how much investment there was in everyone's thinking that she's good, everyone not seeing her true self and so forth. And I feel by a few weeks ago Mary had pretty much released most of that to the point where she's able to get up in front of you now and speak honestly about what's been happening in her sleep state, about things that Mary feels quite ashamed of in herself. And that indicates that this investment in other people's opinion, which is actually the basic cause of our facade, is almost gone. And now that's the case, I feel a lot of hope for Mary and her progression. Whether that means we're together in the future because of different things that come up, I don't know. But I do feel that there is a higher likelihood now of her actually making great strides forward on the Divine Love Path rather than making slow steps and slow increments forward on the Natural Love Path as she had been doing, which we'd discuss many times. [01:39:04.10]

12.2. Praying for assistance to be loving in the sleep state

Participant: Is it possible through prayer to set your intention before you go to sleep at night so that during your sleep state experiences you act lovingly? Or is what's going to happen in your sleep state an inevitable consequence of your soul damage and therefore there's nothing much you can do about it? [01:39:44.21]

AJ: Yeah be careful, Pete, because what Mary said quite clearly to you is that it's not an inevitable consequence of the damage, it's an inevitable consequence of the denial of the damage.

Mary: That's really important.

AJ: There's a big difference between that.

Participant: But is the acceptance of the damage a gradual process or do you just say, "Okay I accept in this moment that I'm just totally damaged?"

Mary: No. When we say an acceptance of the damage it's a willingness to emotionally experience the damage. And not rebel against it.

AJ: It's not an intellectual choice. It's a soul based choice.

Participant: But isn't that a massive process?

AJ: It is.

Mary: It is, yes.

AJ: One that everyone needs to make.

Participant: Right. So given that there's a massive process involved the question is can you set your intention every night before you go to sleep...

AJ: Certainly you can.

Participant: ... not to hurt people?

Mary: Can I tell you what happened in my experience? So one day all this was uncovered. Naturally I didn't want to go to sleep and I knew I hadn't dealt with all of the emotions. In fact I was just in a lot of shock the first day. I didn't want to believe it. I knew it was true and that I'd want to go into complete denial and I'd had to come back. By my own bidding AJ wasn't really talking to me and I was like, "No, I know this is truth. I have to sit with it." [01:41:20.04]

AJ: So in the first day, I still was out on the land with the guys doing things and so forth. So Mary had a lot of that day alone. So she had the chance to feel about all of that.

Mary: But when it came to going to sleep I felt really frightened that the same things were just going to keep happening and I don't want to my damage my soul or my soulmate anymore. And so I really prayed to just be isolated in the sleep state. Just if my Celestial friends could come and just be around me so I could just stay with these feelings. And I prayed that for four or five nights. All the while Rachel, my guide, was saying to me, "We can do this. It's no problem for a while but you have to deal with these emotions because God is not going to afford you this protection forever unless you're willing to engage this process." So that's what has happened for me and now I feel I'm more engaged in releasing the emotions of it, and our interaction and my actions have changed a lot in the sleep state.. [01:42:24.06]

12.3. Mary and AJ's interactions in the sleep state

AJ: We've also made some deals together, haven't we?

Mary: Yes.

AJ: In our awake state, in terms of what we'd like to see happen, and it doesn't necessarily mean it will be based on different emotions but...

Mary: But just that we will actively go to each other in the sleep state now.

AJ: Mary's been avoiding contact with me in the sleep state. There have been literally hundreds of times where I've woken in the mornings and said to Mary, "Yeah, we didn't see each other the whole time in our sleep state." So I've been feeling that for a long time, that there was a big avoidance of our relationship in the sleep state as well. And in fact I'd said to Mary frequently that, "Darling you need to decide whether you want to leave me or not because the desire in your sleep state is to not be with me at all, which would tend to indicate that your desire in your awake state is also to not be with me at all. So you need to really decide whether you want to be with me or not." [01:43:20.18]

Mary: And ironically because I was so addicted to my facade, which is in this case related to my real self, which is, "No I want my soulmate and this is a beautiful gift from God," I couldn't even acknowledge how much I didn't want to be there. And that's why I'm stressing the relationship between the facade, the investment in the facade and the sleep state and how inter-related it is. But, Peter, I feel there's a difference between being in rebellion against your emotional condition and being willing, even if you haven't processed through all of it, to be in the process of being open to it and acknowledging it. Then I feel your sleep state experience will reflect that more. If you're in rebellion your sleep state experience is going to reflect the rebellion and that's where you can really do damage to your soul and other people's souls. [01:44:13.01]

Participant: So discovering the truth about what's happening is the first step, and that's what's been happening today. And then the second step is to generate your desire to make a change.

AJ: Exactly.

Participant: And there's a time where you can ask for temporary assistance to transition and you set your desire to really want to discover what your true emotional damage is.

AJ: Yep. And not live in the rebellion of it, in particular.

Mary: Or denial.

Participant: Right. And will your Law of Attraction actually show you what your true condition is every day?

Mary: And your true desire.

AJ: In your awake state your Law of Attraction will actually ramp up. That's something Mary hasn't mentioned yet was what actually was happening around this area in her awake state life causing the triggers as well to demonstrate the truth of what was going on. So there's a whole series of events that Mary has yet to describe to you that are all about triggering these different emotions that she had been in denial of for quite some time.

Participant: So for all of us we could feel hopeful that there is a way forward from today.

AJ: Definitely.

Mary: I hope so.

AJ: That's the whole point of the discussion.

Mary: That's the point of me talking about it - to say that this has changed things very rapidly and very beautifully. It's been very painful for both of us but it's so worth it.

AJ: So in her last 3 nights in the sleep state at least, even though she feels this immense amount of shame every time I'm with her in the sleep state, Mary has been with me those three nights in the sleep state feeling a lot of stuff in the process. We remember being together the entire time instead of usually I'd just pop in to visit for 5 minutes, get a burst of rage and then Mary would be off having some sexual interaction with somebody to make me feel worse. Then I'd have to leave and go away and just feel about that.

AJ: So what was happening was that I often wouldn't come to visit her in the sleep state at all because my very presence caused her to engage in more sexual things because of her desire to harm me. And part of it was my addiction to see her was enabling the behaviour in a way. So in the sleep state, I wanted to see her even though I could feel that she was probably going to try to harm me again. So I'd go to see her but now that I see her she now has a way of harming me that's a part of the addiction to avoid the pain. And so she'd every time take that action while I was present just to harm me further.

AJ: One of the realisations I've had to work my way through is how my desire and also my unhealed stuff about my soulmate was causing me to engage Mary when it was inappropriate to engage her, and that actually increased her rage and caused her to want to harm me further, and in a way I was feeding the addiction. She would see the pain in me that was created by her harm of me and that would cause her to want to do it more because she wanted to harm me in that manner. And because of the avoidance of the pain that she has about love and the loss of our love and all those kind of things and feeling that it's all my fault, it was all because of some choices I made.

AJ: So I've had to work through a lot of my pain that I've had to work through over the last few weeks, and in fact my rib broke as a result of me holding on to some of the pain that I have. So I've got a broken rib that I broke down at Kyabra, which was a result of how I feel about myself when I'm with my soulmate and avoiding a lot of that emotion. But a lot of that emotion has been coming up for me now, and so that's good too, like helping me heal my lack of self awareness when I'm with my soulmate basically. [01:48:52.13]

12.4. Setting our intention for truth is the fastest way to discover our facade

Participant: Is the fastest way to discover the length and breadth of your facade prayer or is it setting your intention for truth?

Mary: It's those things...

Participant: All those things, is it?

Mary: Yeah.

AJ: Yeah. And remember prayer is desire. So, yes. When you really desire truth you're praying to God, "Please give me truth. Please give me truth," it's not like an intellectual thought that's coming out of you all the time, but it's this passionate feeling inside of you. "I want the truth no matter what, no matter how hard it is, no matter how hard it's going to be for me. No matter how hard it's going to be on my emotional state. No matter how hard it's going to be in terms of processing through my emotions. No matter how hard it's going to be to recognise how I look in the mirror, I still want the truth." And when your desire for truth is large like that, then that's a big prayer that goes to God. If you could think of it this way, God's going to drop everything and just focus on you wanting truth. [01:49:57.08]

Mary: He wants truth!

AJ: And trust me; it's going to come at you very rapidly after that point. And that's what the case with Mary is. When I say drop everything, obviously He does that for each of us concurrently. But this is what God wants with us. God wants the relationship with us so much that God wants us to passionately desire the truth about that relationship and anything that's preventing it. And so from God's perspective a prayer in that direction is far more important than a prayer in almost any other direction. And once we engage that, you'll be very surprised how rapidly the truth just goes, "Bang, bang, bang, bang". Like Mary over the first three days of it was really just reeling in the shock of all the truth. That's how rapidly it was all coming to her, just her own memories, just things that we'd talk about, my memories and then her guide's as well. She was channelling her guides who were reflecting on some of the things as well and just the flow of truth was so rapid once you really want it. But you've got to really want it. [01:51:12.21]

12.5. Coming to love but not judge our damaged emotions

Participant: So is it a mistake to use the realisation of the truth about your sleep state and a revulsion that one might feel about that truth as a spring board to actually generate that desire? Or is that a flawed?

AJ: Yeah the revulsion is a judgement. We do have to be careful of our judgements because it's like it's the judgement of the truth that causes you to not really want to know it.

Participant: But how do get to the point where you love the fact that you've been going out and damaging people?

AJ: Well it's not a matter of loving it, it's a matter of... well it is a matter of loving it, but in the sense that's different to what you're conceiving. You have to love the emotion that created what caused you to do it. This damage is an emotion that, if we just feel it, would not create anything. If we just felt it in the moment we wouldn't go out and act in harmony with the damage ever.

Participant: But maybe it just came from somebody else.

AJ: No it doesn't matter where it came from, Peter. Whatever damage is within us, if we had an openness to feeling it, we would never act upon it. We would only feel it. And that of course would mean that we wouldn't be acting out any unloving things at all. The problem we have is this facade area, the shell, as Mary's been pointing out. It's the facade, the desire to maintain it and the desire to stay in it that creates the rebellion to the damaged emotions. And it's the rebellion to the damaged emotion that creates our actions. So that's the problem that we face in our sleep state.

AJ: A lot of the times we're in rebellion to the damaged emotion and in our awake state we're busily maintaining a facade that, "I'm okay," but in the sleep state that's pretty hard to do when anybody can see our spirit body's condition. So what we finish up doing is we throw our hand up in the air in the sleep state and most of time go, "Well stuff this, it's pointless maintaining the facade! I might as well just go ahead and do what I want to do." And you do. You just go ahead and do what you want to do. Not understanding that the reason why you wanted it is because almost the flipside emotion. So the reason why Mary wants sexual power is because of the feeling of sexual powerlessness that she doesn't wish to feel or hadn't wanted to feel. The reason why she wanted to engage in shame and increase her shame was because she didn't want to feel her shame. She wanted to prove that there was nothing to be ashamed of, rather than just feel her shame. And the biggest one for Mary is her loss; her rage about loss toward God, towards myself, even towards herself. [01:54:19.24]

Mary: Myself, yes.

AJ: And she doesn't want to feel this loss and still is struggling to feel the loss, although she's starting to get into it a bit in the sleep state. But what's happening is that if you deny that emotion you don't want to feel, you're in rebellion to feeling it, and now you have a problem. That is what is going to create every single action you take in the sleep state that's damaging. [01:54:45.14]

12.6. Maintaining wilful ignorance

Participant: Is the rebellion always conscious? Are you consciously aware that you're rebelling?

Mary: You mean in the sleep state?

Participant: In the awake state.

AJ: In the awake state not always conscious because you're in your facade. I do feel to be frank that the majority of us are fully conscious of what we're in rebellion of because our Law of Attraction is constantly telling us what we're in rebellion of, and this is what's been happening for Mary for four years. Her Law of Attraction has been constantly telling her what she's in rebellion of and she's just saying, "No I don't want to know that. I don't want to know that. Don't want to know that. Don't want to know that." And many of you are doing exactly the same. "I don't want to know that." [01:55:27.18]

The Law of Attraction (LOA) shows us what we are avoiding by maintaining our facade self

Mary: The opposite of the desire for truth is, I feel, one of the most damaging things that exist on the planet. And it's wilful ignorance. And I feel that's the place where I've been.

AJ: What do we mean by wilful ignorance? It's very important to understand what Mary's saying. What do we understand that to be?

Participant: For me it feels like I'm actively denying and actively trying to push it away and under and totally rise above it.

AJ: Why?

Participant: Because I don't want to feel my shame and I don't want to feel what I've done, and the harm that I've caused others. I just don't want to acknowledge it.

AJ: Most of us are in wilful ignorance. We want to be ignorant because the instant you no longer want to be ignorant you want truth and when you want truth you always get it. God never hands you a snake when you pray for something else, like for some food. So when you're really praying to know truth you will no longer want wilful ignorance. If you're not getting truth then you don't want it. And we need to just say, "I don't want it. I'm not getting any truth in my life so I mustn't want it." It's the best thing for us to do is just accept that condition. Many of us are wilfully ignorant because gaining the knowledge would cause a whole series of events to occur that we don't want to have happen. And so what we do is wilfully and knowingly decides to remain above it all and not know any of it. And you know the spirit world in the hells is full of people who are still in wilful ignorance of their own actions. And that's something we need to get out of.

Participant: Just about wilful ignorance. I know myself in recent months sat in a place kind of getting a feeling about who my soulmate might be, but now I don't want to know because of the consequence, I have to change my actions if I know that truth. I can't justify what I want to do anymore because there would be moral issues involves and so it's easier to be wilfully ignorant. [01:58:09.24]

Mary: So can you see now we're in the area of integrity, aren't we?

Participant: Yeah.

Mary: This is why, if we want to avoid ourselves, we're not going to have any integrity.

Participant: It was nice to desire truth actually.

12.7. Being humble to feelings of injustice

AJ: I just feel in Mary's case, because of spirits' desire to use any of the fourteen to establish their own traditions and teachings further, and because of the emotional injuries that Mary was going to have when she came to the planet this time round, Mary's received sexual projections for 2000 years about being a whore or being a prostitute and so forth. But for the majority of that time of course she has not been one.

AJ: And in the first century it was only quite a short period of time if you compare it with 2000 years that she was one. But because of these projections there are a huge amount of pain to acknowledge about how unfairly treated we are at times. And I feel a lot of the rebellion feelings that we have are actually about the pain associated with our sense of injustice. So what we do in our sense of injustice unfortunately is we then perpetrate injustice upon others. And this is where we do the wrong thing. We'd be better off just feeling the injustice and going deeper into the sense of injustice and feeling that, rather than then perpetrating the injustice further. Because unfortunately most of the time we choose innocent people upon whom we perpetrate our injustice feelings and that then causes them to feel a sense of injustice. Then there's a high likelihood of them getting rebellious and then them going into a damaging state and doing other things, damaging other people. And this is the potential follow on from our own sense of not wanting to feel the injustice rather than act upon it.

AJ: Now my life, I've had a lot of injustice happen to myself and I've had of course in this life a lot of feelings about that. But it's been very rare for me to act upon them. We need to all get into that space where it's rare or if ever that we act upon the feelings of injustice and rather we just feel them and grieve them. [02:00:56.18]

12.8. Resistance to engaging in the Divine Love Path

Participant: It's a pretty powerless place feeling that injustice.

AJ: Well that's the problem is that all rage is the addiction to power and we need to understand that many of us have huge amounts of rage and huge amounts of desire to control. In fact we've spent most of our lives setting up a life that we can control in order to avoid a lot of things. But it's also an addiction to self reliance. We don't trust God enough to go, "I'm going to put myself in your hands, God. I'm going to put myself and my life in your hands in the sense that I'm going to follow your laws and principles and I'm going to follow the principles of truth and love no matter how hard it is for me to do so, I'm going to follow it and any emotion that comes up as a result of me following it, I'm going to feel and not perpetrate any act of violence or emotion towards another person feeling that." Now when we can do that, and that shift is normally around about the third sphere that that occurs, when we do that, now you engage all of God's Laws assisting you throughout the process. And that's the benefit of making those kinds of choices.

AJ: Unfortunately for many of us what we do is make different choices to that. We basically say to God, "I don't really trust you yet. You know, I hope you're there but I'm not really sure. And, you know, I hope you love me. AJ's saying that you love me but I don't really feel that really very much of the time at all. And, you know, all these things that Jesus is talking about I think I get at the soul level but I don't like a lot of it really." You know you think for most of you when you first heard some of the discussions when you first came, how much rage was present during the presentation about something that I've said. So you have all of those emotions. And then as a result of those sorts of emotions, there is this very strong resistance then to gain further truth, progressing further along the Divine Love Path.

12.8.1. God created us perfect and able to overcome all sin

AJ: This is something I've mentioned to Mary many times - not understanding that actually God created you perfect. God didn't make any mistakes with you. God didn't create the damage or the facade and God knows who and what your potential is. And your potential far exceeds what your facade considers to be your potential. And your potential far exceeds and has the ability to overcome every tiny piece of damage that's ever been done to you. That's the way God's designed your soul. God didn't make a mistake designing your soul and so God has created this beautiful being that has the ability to conquer all sin within it. We all have this innate ability if we engage it with God to conquer all sin. Conquer all error. And once we do that, and realise that, and we have that kind of trust and faith in God and what God's created, then we won't be so averse to discovering our true self. But at the moment many of us don't believe those things and we are very averse to discovering our true self because we're petrified that our true self is even worse than our damaged self. And that is a physical impossibility for our true self to be worse than our damaged self. [02:04:44.16]

Mary: I know for myself, my facade self wants to create this life where I feel safe and comfortable, and as I think Rob mentioned yesterday, when sometimes we connect to our real self it has these huge desires that trigger all of our fears and go, "No, God, you didn't create me perfect. I can do it better. I know what's going to make me happier," instead of recognising that it's just a fear in my damaged self that's preventing my real self from being happier than I can possibly imagine. [02:05:16.15]

AJ: Yeah. And the amount of pain in a reincarnated soul far exceeds by factors of hundreds the amount of pain in a person in their first incarnation. And the reason for that pain for a reincarnated soul is a lot about the loss. You cannot imagine the loss. It's impossible for anybody who's not reincarnated to imagine the extent of the loss that you experience coming back to an Earth in its current state. Now in the future it may be different but now coming back to Earth in its current state the loss is so intense, and yet God created the soul with the ability to even release from itself that amount of extreme pain. So that should give every person the confidence that any amount of pain that's within you can be released if you engage this process that God has designed for soul to engage.

13. Closing Words

AJ: Rather than answer some more questions, we probably want to leave the talk there. What we've hoped we've done today is opened your mind and your awareness to this whole one third of your life. And also through Mary's personal experience demonstrated to you how much many of your locked up emotions are actually related to your denial of that life, and denial of what you do in that life.

AJ: What we'd like to encourage you to do is to discover what's going on in this life. There are good things going on in the life as well by the way, and there are negative things going on in the life. Just like there are good things going on in your day-to-day life here on Earth and negative things going on in your day-to-day life on Earth. And what we'd like to encourage you to do, with the help of your guides and with prayer, is to discover what's going on. Discover what you're in denial of and allow yourselves to get beyond the facade and into the real stuff, and to get beyond the facade in each state, both in the sleep state and the awake state.

AJ: So you get beyond the facade and you're now in this place where you have these qualities that Mary said she didn't have when she started. But the reality is faith, trust in God, integrity, desire for truth, desire for growth, and persistence, those kind of qualities that we listed yesterday are going to be very essential for you in your coming months and they will help you greatly.

AJ: Remember yesterday I described the damaged self as being like the egg white and the real self as being like the egg yolk. What happens when the facade shell goes? It's all just going to ooze out of you, isn't it? So instead of having to spend all of your time trying to discover what this emotion was and that emotion is, and trying to work it out and asking this person, asking that person, discussing it with everybody because you have to, you will find the emotion will just ooze out of you, and just naturally flow and come out of you, the more you release these different facades.

When we break down the facade our damage will just flow out of us

AJ: And in the end if you release most the facade, you can see that all the damage was just going to ooze out of you, and you're going to be left with the yolk, in the end that's still this nice, soft thing that has the ability now to grow. And if we take the analogy in a bad way to another state, the yolk is the embryo of the chicken is it not? It contains the genetic structure, if you like, for this real self-creation, for this creature to grow. And it's very, very much the same with us. Without us connecting to this real self, true growth is not really going to be possible.

Eventually when we release all our damage only our real self, which God created, remains

AJ: This is where our real soul is. This is the thing that when you get beyond the 7th dimension and you no longer have any damage in you, this is going to continue to grow. It's going to be the only part of you that's left over. And bear in mind that you're a half of a soul, so there'll be a union of these two yolks if you like during this process. [02:10:09.21]

Mary: And the creative power in that union.

AJ: Yeah. And if you can think about it there are a lot of things we could take as an analogy from that, with regard to even sexual union and so forth. There are a lot of patterns in there about what happens to the soul. And this is the way God teaches us through these patterns.

AJ: Our feeling are, and probably more so now Mary's feelings than before, is that if you can be allowing of this damage, and you can be honest about it, and you can allow yourself to feel it as it really is rather than trying to maintain a facade, you will rapidly then work through different damaged areas and parts of your real self will sort of be exposed. So if this is the damaged area around here, and eventually you work through this damage here, now can you see what's going to happen? The real self will begin to flow.

When we break down part of our facade, part of our real self begins to show

AJ: For many of you it will be for the very first time in your whole life that you've been your real self in one area. And then once you work through some more damage now there's another vortex, if you like, where more of your real self can come out and flow.

When we break down another area of our facade, another part of our real self will be exposed

AJ: Can you see it's going to be this slowly developing process, and it doesn't have to be that slow either; it just depends on your choice as to how rapidly it occurs.

AJ: So what we hope that we've done this weekend is firstly help you work through the fact that there is the facade still in operation in many cases, and also help you see that the facade creates a lot of the damaging actions you take, either in your awake state or in your sleep state. And hopefully today we've discussed with you this aspect of your sleep state and how getting to know what's happening in it is going to assist you greatly in your own progression towards God. But you're going to need to have courage to face it because sometimes it isn't pretty, that's the trouble. So hopefully we've done that today and yesterday just to help you with those particular things. [02:12:38.07]

Mary: And can I just thank you all for being such a beautiful audience to receive my truth and I hope that maybe it inspires courage in you to look at these things because there is a lot of grace available when you're willing to really face yourself \- from my soulmate as well as God. Thank you. (Applause) [02:13:28.00]

AJ: So we look forward to the next few months and see what transpires, hey? See what soul growth occurs.

Mary: Have a good sleep everyone! (Laughter)

AJ: Or stay awake all night, if that's what you want! (Laughs)

AJ: We just feel that myself and Mary are spending a couple of weeks again by ourselves because we just want to focus a lot on our own progression again. So we're taking a couple of weeks away so that we can just focus on our own relationship without any interruptions, and so we'll be doing that over the next few weeks after the Bracken Ridge talks. And we'd like to encourage you all to consider doing a similar thing, just spend time if you're in a relationship spend time with the person in your relationship. Work your way through different issues that you've been avoiding or trying to run away from or not being honest about and so forth, and let yourself work your way through those things if you can. So we'd like to encourage you to do that. We love you guys and we look forward to seeing you again, if not next week, in a month's time. (Applause)

