TIM: WELCOME TO OUR DAILY
BREAD MINISTRIES WEBINARS.
I'M YOUR HOST TIM JACKSON,
AND TODAY'S WEBINAR IS
DEALING WITH A TOPIC...
OF GREAT CONCERN TO MANY
PASTORS AND MINISTRY LEADERS.
IT'S THE TOPIC OF BURNOUT.
AND WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT
OVERCOMING MINISTRY BURNOUT,
AND THIS IS THE FIRST
OF A TWO-PART SERIES
THAT WE WILL BE DOING.
THE FIRST PART DEALS
WITH UNDERSTANDING THE PROBLEM.
THAT'S WHAT WE'LL BE TALKING
ABOUT THIS SESSION.
IN THE NEXT ONE WE'LL
TALK ABOUT UNDERSTANDING
THE HEALING PROCESS.
AND TODAY MY GUESTS ARE STEVE
MAYBEE AND JODY HESLER. WELCOME.
STEVE AND JODY: THANK YOU.
TIM: YOU'RE...
YOU'RE BOTH COUNSELORS
WITH ALONGSIDE MINISTRIES.
STEVE: THAT'S CORRECT.
TIM: AND WHAT IS
ALONGSIDE MINISTRIES, STEVE?
STEVE: ALONGSIDE
MINISTRIES IS EXISTING FOR
MISSIONARIES AND PASTORS,
PRETTY MUCH EXCLUSIVELY.
WE ARE THERE TO PROVIDE
THREE-WEEK INTENSIVE,
OUTPATIENT COUNSELING
PROGRAMS FOR PEOPLE IN
FULL-TIME MINISTRY.
TIM: AND JODY,
YOU WORK THERE AS A COUNSELOR
ON STAFF THERE, AS WELL.
JODY: I DO. I DO.
TIM: AND HOW LONG
HAVE YOU BEEN THERE?
JODY: I HAVE ONLY BEEN THERE
FOR ABOUT EIGHT MONTHS.
NOW, I'M THE NEWEST
KID ON THE BLOCK.
TIM: OKAY. AND... BUT BOTH OF
YOU HAVE MINISTRY EXPERIENCE
YOURSELVES, DON'T YOU?
STEVE: THAT'S RIGHT.
TIM: WHERE DID YOU MINISTER?
TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT.
JODY: I WAS A MISSIONARY
FOR TWO DECADES, REALLY,
FOR 11 YEARS IN UKRAINE,
AND ANOTHER TEN YEARS
IN CENTRAL ASIA.
TIM: OKAY, AND STEVE?
STEVE: MY WIFE AND I WERE
SERVING IN EASTERN EUROPE
FOR ABOUT FIVE YEARS.
TIM: OKAY. SO BOTH OF YOU
HAVE BEEN IN MINISTRY,
AND BOTH
OF YOU HAVE GONE THROUGH... HAVE
STORIES OF BURNOUT, HAVEN'T YOU?
JODY: MM-HMM.
TIM: AND... AND THAT, I THINK,
IS VERY INTRIGUING,
BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT
ONLY TRAINED THERAPISTS
WHO WORK IN THIS PROGRAM,
BUT... BUT YOU'RE ALSO... YOU
HAVE THE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE,
KIND OF HAVING
"BEEN THERE, DONE THAT."
SO I REALLY APPRECIATE
YOU TAKING THE TIME TO BE
WITH US TODAY. THIS IS GREAT.
BUT, JODY, THIS WHOLE
IDEA... THIS... OF...
OF PASTORAL BURNOUT,
OF MINISTRY BURNOUT,
IS IT A REAL PROBLEM?
JODY: YEAH. IT... IT'S A...
IT'S A VERY REAL PROBLEM, TIM.
AND IT'S JUST A MATTER OF
BEING COMPLETELY TAPPED OUT,
PHYSICALLY, SPIRITUALLY,
EMOTIONALLY.
IT'S WHEN YOU'RE PUTTING
OUT MORE THAN YOU'RE TAKING IN,
JUST TO... NOT TO PUT
TOO FINE A POINT ON IT.
TIM: NOW, I WAS READING AND
DOING SOME RESEARCH PRIOR TO
THIS, AND I WAS LOOKING UP...
HERE'S A DEFINITION THAT
I FOUND. IT SAYS, "BURNOUT IS
A STATE OF PHYSICAL, MENTAL,
"SPIRITUAL, AND EMOTIONAL
EXHAUSTION CAUSED BY EXTENDED
AND INTENSE LEVELS OF STRESS,
"CAUSING THE BODY TO OVERPRODUCE
ADRENALINE. THIS LEADS TO THE...
"THE QUESTIONING
OF ONE'S ABILITIES OR
OF THE VALUE OF ONE'S WORK."
IS THAT A PRETTY
ACCURATE STATEMENT?
JODY: I'D SAY THAT'S
VERY ACCURATE. YOU WONDER,
IS IT WORTH WHAT I'M DOING?
CAN I DO IT?
AM I WORTHY TO DO IT?
AND FEELING LIKE I HAVE
NO RESOURCES, INTERNAL
RESOURCES TO DO IT.
TIM: IT... IT SEEMS LIKE
IT'S A PRETTY COMPLEX ISSUE.
JODY: MM-HMM.
TIM: BUT LET'S TALK, STEVE,
ABOUT HOW BIG THE PROBLEM IS.
STEVE: YEAH.
TIM: THE  NEW YORK TIMES PUT OUT
AN ARTICLE IN AUGUST OF 2010,
AND THEY GAVE A WHOLE LIST.
AND THE... THE BARNA GROUP HAS
PUT OUT A LIST, AND HD LONDON'S
PUT OUT A LIST IN A BOOK.
THEY'RE SAYING 1,700 PASTORS
A YEAR LEAVE MINISTRY.
STEVE: YEAH, I THINK THAT'S
PROBABLY AN UNDERESTIMATE.
TIM: UNDERESTIMATE?
STEVE: YEAH. THERE ARE...
THERE ARE LITERALLY HUNDREDS
OF PASTORS EVERY MONTH...
THAT ARE LEAVING THE MINISTRY,
MORE OR LESS PERMANENTLY,
BECAUSE OF... OF A WIDE NUMBER
OF REASONS THAT I IMAGINE
WE'RE GOING TO GET INTO.
TIM: YEAH. SOME... SOME OF
THE STATISTICS I READ WERE:
90 PERCENT OF PASTORS
REPORT FEELING OVERWORKED,
THEY WORK LONG HOURS.
50 PERCENT FEEL UNABLE TO
MEET THE DEMANDS OF THE JOB.
70 PERCENT FEEL GROSSLY
UNDERPAID. 90 PERCENT FEEL
INAC... INADEQUATELY TRAINED...
TO COPE WITH MINISTRY DEMANDS,
LIKE THEY DIDN'T FEEL LIKE
THEY GOT PREPARATION.
STEVE: RIGHT.
TIM: I MEAN, IS THIS TYPICAL
OF WHAT YOU FIND...
WITH THOSE WHO COME TO
YOUR MINISTRY AT ALONGSIDE?
STEVE: ABSOLUTELY! THE STUFF
THAT WE DEAL WITH AT ALONGSIDE,
WE'RE DEALING WITH THE...
THE EMOTIONAL ISSUES,
THE RELATIONAL ISSUES.
AND WE DON'T TEND TO COVER
THOSE THINGS IN SEMINARY.
MOST PASTORS ARE
NOT GETTING TRIPPED UP
ON ISSUES OF THEOLOGY.
THAT'S... THAT'S NOT
WHAT LEADS INTO BURNOUT,
GENERALLY SPEAKING.
IT'S THE ISSUES RELATED TO,
HOW DO I DEAL WITH THIS
PARISHIONER...
WHO'S GIVING ME A HARD TIME? HOW
DO I DEAL WITH MY OWN FAMILY?
HOW DO I DEAL
WITH THE EXPECTATIONS,
OR NOT FEELING LIKE I CAN DO THE
JOB THE WAY THAT I'M EXPECTING,
OR THAT OTHER PEOPLE
ARE EXPECTING?
TIM: WE'VE GOT... WE'VE GOT
MORE LISTS OF STATISTICS THERE,
AND I DON'T WANT TO BELABOR
THAT TOO LONG, THEY'RE FOR
THE FOLKS TO READ,
BUT ONE OF THEM SAYS THAT
80 PERCENT OF THE PEOPLE...
BELIEVE MINISTRY HAS
ADVERSELY AFFECTED THEIR FAMILY.
YOU AGREE WITH THAT, JODY?
JODY: YEAH. I WOULD
SAY THAT THAT IS NOT
A CONSERVATIVE ESTIMATE.
TIM: NOT CONSERVATIVE?
JODY: NOT CONSERVATIVE.
YEAH. I THINK THAT IT DOES.
WE KNOW THAT.
WE SEE THAT EVERY DAY,
THAT MINISTRY DOES AFFECT
THE WHOLE FAMILY.
AND THE WHOLE FAMILY GOES INTO
CRISIS WHEN THE SENIOR PASTOR
OR ONE OF THE MINISTRY...
WHOEVER IN YOUR FAMILY IS IN
THE MINISTRY, GOES INTO CRISIS.
TIM: NOW, I KNOW I'M...
I'M INVOLVED IN MENTORING
SOME YOUNG MEN...
THAT ARE PREPARING
FOR MINISTRY. IT'S DISCOURAGING
FOR ME TO LOOK AT THE...
THE LAST ONE THAT SAYS
50 PERCENT OF MINISTERS STARTING
OUT WILL NOT LAST FIVE YEARS.
STEVE: YEAH.
TIM: AND... AND MAN,
THAT'S... THAT'S A HEAVY DEAL.
JODY: YEAH.
TIM: WHAT ARE SOME OF
THE CAUSES OF MINISTRY BURNOUT?
STEVE: THERE ARE LOTS,
AND THAT'S PROBABLY SOMETHING
THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT,
A POINT FOR US TO MAKE,
THAT THE... THE CAUSES OF
BURNOUT... THERE ARE MULTIPLE.
THE... HOW TO MAIN...
AS... BURNOUT IS MAINTAINED.
THERE ARE MULTIPLE REASONS WHY
IT'S ONGOING IN PEOPLE'S LIVES.
BUT SOME OF THE...
THE CAUSES, YOU KNOW THERE'RE...
THERE'RE THE INTERNAL ONES.
THERE ARE THE
EXTERNAL ONES. THERE'S THE...
THE PRESSURE THAT WE HAVE
WHEN WE PUT A PASTOR
ONTO THE PEDESTAL.
THE... THE WHOLE PEDESTAL
PRINCIPLE, WHERE WE EXPECT
CERTAIN THINGS FROM A PASTOR...
THAT WE DON'T EXPECT FROM,
REALLY, ANY OTHER HUMAN BEING.
TIM: SO WE'RE... WE'RE TALKING
ABOUT UNREALISTIC EXPECTATIONS.
STEVE: AND... AND THOSE CAN BE
ENORMOUS WHETHER THEY'RE COMING
FROM OUR CONSTITUENCY,
FROM THE... THE PEOPLE IN
OUR CONGREGATION, OR THEY'RE
COMING FROM... FROM INSIDE.
I MEAN, WE TEND TO EXPECT THAT
OURSELVES. IF WE'RE A PASTOR,
WE HAVE PARTICULAR
STANDARDS THAT WE WANT TO
MAKE SURE WE MEET, AS WELL.
TIM: SO JODY, THERE'S
UNREALISTIC EXPECTATIONS,
THEN, ON THE OUTSIDE,
OF
PRESSURES FROM A CONGREGATION OR
THE PEOPLE THAT YOU'RE SERVING,
BUT WE ALSO HAVE INTERNAL
EXPECTATIONS THAT WE
CARRY INTO THIS.
JODY: ABSOLUTELY, ALL THE
"SHOULDS" THAT WE CARRY AROUND:
I SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO THIS. I
SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO THIS ALONE.
I SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO IT NOW.
I SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO IT ALL,
FAMILY, MINISTRY.
THOSE "SHOULDS",
THEY ARE A HEAVY LOAD.
TIM: WHAT COME TO MY MIND
AS SOON AS YOU SAID THAT WAS,
IF I WAS A REALLY GOOD
CHRISTIAN, I WOULDN'T BE
STRUGGLING WITH THIS.
AFTER ALL, I'M SUPPOSED TO
DIE TO MYSELF, DENY MYSELF,
TAKE UP MY CROSS, FOLLOW JESUS.
ISN'T THAT BIBLICAL?
STEVE: AND IT ABSOLUTELY IS.
I MEAN, PHILIPPIANS 2.
WE... WE HAVE THAT...
THAT WHOLE PASSAGE WHERE JESUS
WHO, LEAVING HEAVEN BEHIND,
TOOK ON THE FORM OF A...
A SERVANT AND DIED ON THE CROSS.
WE ARE TO DENY OURSELVES.
THAT'S WHAT WE GET TOLD
OVER AND OVER AGAIN,
WHICH IS SCRIPTURAL,
IT'S BIBLICAL, IT'S TRUE.
WE JUMP UP TO...
TIM: I HEAR...
I HEAR A "BUT" COMING.
STEVE: THE... YEAH,
HERE'S THE "BUT".
THE "BUT" IS IN VERSE 4.
VERSE 4 SAYS, "THINK NOT ONLY OF
YOURSELVES BUT ALSO OF OTHERS.
"YOUR ATTITUDE SHOULD BE THE
SAME AS THAT OF CHRIST JESUS."
AND SO BEING ABLE TO COME IN
AND SAY IT'S... IT'S THE "NOT
ONLY" BUT THE "ALSO".
TIM: YEAH, I KNOW
THE... THE NIV SAYS, "THINK
NOT ONLY OF YOUR OWN INTERESTS,
"BUT ALSO THE INTERESTS
OF OTHERS."
AND I THINK THE KEY THERE IS THE
"NOT ONLY, BUT ALSO", ISN'T IT?
IT'S NOT WRONG FOR YOU
TO THINK OF YOUR OWN INTERESTS.
THE PROBLEM IS IF YOU THINK OF
YOUR OWN INTERESTS EXCLUSIVELY.
STEVE: ABSOLUTELY. I GREW UP
GOING TO CHURCH, AND I HEARD
OVER AND OVER AGAIN THAT IT...
IT'S NOT ABOUT ME.
I'M NOT SUPPOSED TO
THINK ABOUT WHAT I WANT.
I'M NOT SUPPOSED TO
THINK ABOUT WHAT I NEED.
I'M SUPPOSED TO GIVE MYSELF IN
THE INTERESTS OF OTHER PEOPLE.
AND IN SO DOING THAT, THE OTHER
PEOPLE WHO ARE ALSO SUPPOSED TO
BE MAYBE TAKING CARE OF ME,
THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT
I WANT BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW
WHAT I WANT OR WHAT I NEED,
AND I'M NOT COMMUNICATING
THAT TO OTHER PEOPLE.
TIM: SO YOU TALK ABOUT NEED.
JODY, I MEAN, NONE OF US
LIKE TO BE SEEN AS NEEDY.
JODY: RIGHT.
TIM: AND IT... MEAN... AND
I WOULD SEE THAT AS A... A KIND
OF THE PUSH BACK FROM THE TABLE.
I'M NOT... I DON'T WANT TO
BE NEEDY. THAT FEELS PATHETIC.
JODY: WHAT...
WHAT A WEIGHT TO CARRY AROUND.
AND WE DON'T THINK OF
THE PEOPLE THAT WE MINISTER
TO AS PATHETIC, DO WE?
BUT SOMEHOW WE'RE SUPPOSED
TO RISE ABOVE THAT?
EVEN BEING ABLE TO ACKNOWLEDGE
THAT... THAT WE'RE JUST
AS HUMAN AS... AS THE NEXT GUY,
THAT WE HAVE NEEDS:
PHYSICAL, EMOTIONAL,
SPIRITUAL, RELATIONAL.
I MEAN, LOOKING AT OURSELVES
HOLISTICALLY AS WE LOOK AT
THE PEOPLE THAT WE SERVE.
WE DON'T EXTEND THAT GRACE,
THOUGH, TO OURSELVES.
WE'RE GOING TO POUR OURSELVES
OUT LIKE A DRINK OFFERING.
TIM: I... I KNOW FROM OUR... OUR
CHATS PREVIOUS TO THIS WEBINAR
JUST IN PREPARATION FOR THIS,
YOU SAID THOSE KIND OF
NUMBERS ARE... ARE REALLY
LOW IN ONE SENSE,
IF WE'RE LOOKING 75
PERCENT. YOU'RE SAYING... YOU'RE
SAYING IT'S EVEN HIGHER...
AMONG PASTORAL MINISTRY
AND MISSIONARIES.
STEVE: I BELIEVE THAT'S TRUE.
THE... THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE
THAT WE ARE SEEING...
WHO ARE DEALING WITH THAT IS
PROBABLY A SMALL PERCENTAGE...
OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE ACTUALLY
STRUGGLING WITH... WITH BURNOUT,
IN PART BECAUSE OF
THE PEDESTAL PRINCIPLE
THAT I MENTIONED EARLIER.
WHEN WE'RE IN MINISTRY WE'RE NOT
ALLOWED TO ACKNOWLEDGE WEAKNESS.
WE'RE NOT ALLOWED TO ACKNOWLEDGE
THAT WE MIGHT HAVE A PROBLEM,
AND SO PASTORS,
MISSIONARIES TEND NOT TO
DEAL WITH PROBLEMS UNTIL...
TILL THEY SEE IT AS A...
AS A REALLY BIG DEAL.
TIM: SO IF YOU'RE... BOTH OF YOU
HAD MISSIONARY EXPERIENCES.
AND I KNOW AT TIMES
WE WANT TO EQUATE SOME
OF THESE THINGS TO...
THERE ARE FEATURES
OF THIS THAT SEEM TO
BE SIMILAR TO EXPERIENCES...
THAT WARRIORS HAVE WHEN
THEY COME OUT OF A WAR ZONE,
THAT'S LIKE PTSD TYPE OF THINGS.
DO YOU EQUATE BURNOUT WITH
THAT KIND OF A THING, STEVE?
STEVE: WELL, PTSD,
IN ORDER TO OFFICIALLY
BE DIAGNOSED WITH PTSD,
AND IF I CAN PUT MY
CLINICAL HAT ON FOR A MINUTE...
SOMEBODY HAS TO EXPERIENCE A...
A NEAR-DEATH EXPERIENCE
OR AT LEAST BELIEVE THAT THEY
ARE IN A NEAR-DEATH EXPERIENCE.
TIM: SO SOMETHING THAT'S
LIFE-THREATENING.
STEVE: YES.
TIM: THAT MAY NOT BE TRUE
FOR PASTORS IN THE U.S.
BUT IT SURE COULD BE
FOR PEOPLE OUTSIDE THE U.S.
STEVE: IT... IT ABSOLUTELY
CAN AND IS. IT IS.
SO WHILE... WHILE I'M... I
WOULDN'T BE COMFORTABLE SAYING,
YES, LET'S DIAGNOSE A
BURNED-OUT PASTOR WITH PTSD,
I... I DON'T ALSO WANT TO
MINIMIZE HOW SERIOUS BURNOUT
CAN BE FOR THE LOCAL PASTOR.
IT IS A BIG DEAL.
IT HAS A TOLL ON HIM,
HIS MINISTRY, HIS FAMILY.
IT'S HUGE, BUT PTSD
WOULD PROBABLY NOT BE
AN ACCURATE DIAGNOSIS.
TIM: OKAY. BUT... BUT THERE CAN
BE SOME FEATURES THAT LOOK A
LITTLE LIKE THAT, CAN'T THERE?
STEVE: THERE'S A LOT
OF OVERLAP, SURE.
TIM: YOU'VE MENTIONED,
THOUGH, SOMETHING, AS WELL,
THAT I THOUGHT WAS INTERESTING,
A NEW TERM I WAS
UNFAMILIAR WITH. YOU TALKED
ABOUT COMPASSION FATIGUE.
JODY, WHAT... HOW DO YOU
DEFINE COMPASSION FATIGUE?
JODY: COMPASSION FATIGUE...
BURNT... BURNOUT IS KIND OF...
YOU CAN COMPARE THE TWO OF THEM,
AND THEY DEFINITELY
HAVE ELEMENTS THAT
OVERLAP THERE, TOO.
BUT COMPASSION FATIGUE IS
WHERE YOU HAVE JUST BEEN POURING
OUT TO... TO YOUR CONSTITUENCY,
YOUR CONGREGATION,
OR DEPENDING ON...
IT COULD BE YOUR COMMUNITY,
WHOEVER IT IS THAT YOU'RE
SERVING, AND YOU'VE JUST RUN
OUT OF ENERGY TO DO THAT.
THE NEEDS ARE GREATER THAN
YOU HAVE RESOURCES TO MEET.
YOU START TO FEEL
RESPONSIBLE AND GUILTY...
THAT YOU CAN'T MEET ALL THE
NEEDS THAT ARE COMING TO YOU.
YOU'RE PHYSICALLY EXHAUSTED.
AND SO COMPASSION FATIGUE
USUALLY HAS A QUICKER ONSET,
AND IT CAN ACTUALLY TAKE
A LITTLE BIT LESS REST SOMETIMES
TO RECOVER FROM THAN BURNOUT.
BUT BURNOUT CERTAINLY
CAN CONTAIN COMPASSION
FATIGUE, ABSOLUTELY.
TIM: ARE WE TALKING
A CONTINUUM HERE,
THAT COMPASSION
FATIGUE IS KIND OF LIKE
THE FIRST STEP INTO THAT,
AND BURNOUT IS SOMETHING THAT IS
MORE EXTENSIVE OR GOES DEEPER?
IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE TALKING
ABOUT? OR ARE THEY REALLY
CHARACTERISTICALLY DIFFERENT?
JODY: THEY ARE...
THEY ARE DIFFERENT.
FOR SOME PEOPLE, ABSOLUTELY,
IT CAN START FOR COMP...
WITH COMPASSION FATIGUE.
IT DEPENDS ON
WHAT THEIR MINISTRY IS,
BUT YOU WOULDN'T HAVE
TO HAVE COMPASSION FATIGUE
TO BE EXPERIENCING BURNOUT.
DO... YOU MAY HAVE BURNOUT
WITHOUT EVER... EVER HAVING
EXPERIENCED COMPASSION FATIGUE.
TIM: OKAY, 'CAUSE THAT... I KNOW
PEOPLE WHO ARE CAREGIVERS,
FOR SOMEONE WHO'S GOT
A PHYSICAL ILLNESS...
MY MOM TOOK CARE
OF MY DAD WITH ALZHEIMER'S. AND
WE KEPT LOOKING AT HER SAYING,
"MOM, THIS IS GETTING TO BE
TOO MUCH. IT'S TOO MUCH."
SHE GOES, "NO, I PROMISED
I'D TAKE CARE OF HIM.
I'M GOING TO TAKE CARE OF HIM."
AND THEN I REMEMBER
THE PHONE CALL I GOT FROM
MOM, AND SHE WAS IN TEARS.
SHE JUST SAID,
"I CAN'T DO IT ANYMORE."
AND WE SAID, LIKE, "WE KNOW.
WE'VE KNOWN FOR A WHILE,
"BUT YOU HAD TO COME
TO THE POINT WHERE YOU'RE
WILLING TO ALLOW OTHERS...
"TO TAKE CARE OF
CERTAIN THINGS FOR MY DAD
SO YOU CAN BE HIS WIFE."
AND THAT'S... THAT
STRIKES ME AS THE COMPASSION
FATIGUE KIND OF THING.
JODY: YOU'RE RIGHT ON, TIM.
TIM: SO THAT CAN HAPPEN
IN MINISTRY, TOO.
JODY: YES.
STEVE: WELL, IF YOU IMAGINE THE
MINISTER WHO'S POURING OUT AND
POURING OUT AND POURING OUT,
I MEAN, MOST PASTORS,
AT LEAST AS THEY START,
CARE DEEPLY FOR THE PEOPLE
THAT THEY'RE TAKING CARE OF
AND THAT THEY'RE SHEPHERDING.
AND THAT MATTERS TO THEM BOTH
FOR GOOD REASONS AND SOMETIMES
FOR NOT THE BEST REASONS.
AND... AND SO WHEN
YOU'RE CONTINUALLY POURING
YOURSELF INTO PEOPLE,
AND THEN YOU DON'T
GET THE RESULTS THAT YOUR
EFFORTS SHOULD BE PRODUCING,
AT LEAST IN THE WAY THAT YOU'RE
THINKING, YOU'VE INVESTED IN
THIS FAMILY AND THEY...
THEY MAKE A DECISION THAT
GOES CONTRARY TO THE WAY
YOU'D LIKE THEM TO GO,
THAT STARTS TO
GET OLD REALLY FAST, AND...
TIM: IT KIND OF
EATS AWAY AT YOU.
AND YOU WONDER HOW EFF...
AM I EFFECTIVE AT ALL?
IS ANYBODY REALLY
PAYING ATTENTION? AND I...
IT STRIKES ME THAT IT'S THAT
KIND OF THING THAT WE SAY,
"WELL, IF I LOVED REALLY WELL,
THEY WOULD RESPOND WELL."
THAT... THAT'S ONE
OF THOSE UNREALISTIC
EXPECTATIONS, ISN'T IT?
STEVE: IT IS.
TIM: BECAUSE THAT'S... THAT'S
JUST NOT HOW PEOPLE ARE WIRED.
AND... AND WE TEND
TO TAKE THAT ALL IN AND
MAKE IT REAL PERSONAL.
AND THAT'S WHEN WE GET
OURSELVES IN TROUBLE, ISN'T IT?
YOU KNOW, JODY, THIS....
THIS THING OF BURNOUT SEEMS
TO BE LIKE LAYERS OF AN ONION.
THERE'S JUST MULTIPLE
LAYERS. LET'S START PEELING
THAT A LITTLE BIT FOR FOLKS.
IF THEY'RE OUT THERE SAYING,
"WELL, WHAT DO YOU MEAN?
"DO I HAVE... DO I HAVE
BURNOUT, AND AM I SUFFERING
SYMPTOMS OF BURNOUT?"
WE KNOW THAT
SOME PEOPLE IDENTIFIED THEY ARE.
WHAT ARE SOME OF THOSE LAYERS
THAT... THAT YOU HELP PEOPLE
BEGIN TO WALK THROUGH AND SEE?
JODY: I THINK OFTEN PEOPLE
START WITH BEING PHYSICALLY
JUST VERY TIRED,
JUST A BONE-DEEP
KIND OF FATIGUE.
AND YOU ALMOST DON'T
KNOW WHERE ONE LAYER STOPS
AND THE OTHER ONE BEGINS.
TIM:
SO THERE'S BLEED-OVER BETWEEN.
JODY: THEY...
THERE'S DEFINITELY BLEED-OVER.
BUT THEN YOU START
NOTICING THAT PEOPLE ARE
JUST NOT DOING IT FOR YOU.
YOU'RE... YOU JUST
WILL AVOID PEOPLE.
SO THAT THE... THE RELATIONSHIP
ASPECT... YOU MAY BE TOO
TIRED TO DEAL WITH THEM.
THEY MAY BE AGGRAVATING
YOU HALF TO DEATH.
YOU MAY NOTICE THAT YOU DON'T
HAVE THE PATIENCE THAT YOU
USED TO HAVE FOR PEOPLE.
SPIRITUALLY, ARE YOU DRY?
DO YOU FEEL LIKE YOU'RE NOT
ABLE TO CONNECT WITH THE LORD?
ARE YOU PRAYING BUT FEELING LIKE
IT'S KIND OF JUST GOING INTO THE
COSMOS AND NOT REALLY LANDING?
HELP ME OUT.
WHAT OTHER... WE GOT.
STEVE: WELL, THE... THE ONE
THAT... ONE OF THE MAIN SYMPTOMS
THAT I LOOK FOR IN SOMEBODY...
IS WHETHER THEY HAVE KIND OF
LOST THAT PASSION. THEY'VE LOST
THE... THE CONNECTION,
THE... THE ENTHUSIASM
FOR THINGS THAT THEY USED
TO GET EXCITED ABOUT.
TIM: GIVE ME
SOME EXAMPLES, STEVE.
STEVE: WELL, IF YOU'VE
GOT SOMEBODY WHO... WHO
USED TO GET ALL FIRED UP...
TO GET IN THE PULPIT
ON SUNDAY MORNING BECAUSE
THAT'S WHAT THEY LOVE TO DO.
IT'S THEIR PASSION,
IT'S THEIR MINISTRY,
BUT NOW IT'S, "OH, I'VE GOT
TO PREPARE ANOTHER SERMON."
TIM: MORE DRUDGERY.
STEVE: "I'VE GOT TO GET UP
THERE AND I'VE GOT TO DO IT,
"YOU KNOW,
IS ANYBODY REALLY LISTENING?
I REALLY DON'T WANT TO DO IT."
AND... AND THAT WAS
SOMETHING THAT WAS ONE
OF THE MAIN REASONS...
THAT THEY FELT CALLED INTO
THE MINISTRY, BECAUSE THEY...
THEY LOVED TO BE ABLE TO BRING
THE WORD OF GOD TO THESE PEOPLE.
TIM: AND TO TEACH
THE SCRIPTURES.
STEVE: EXACTLY.
AND SO WHEN THAT'S GONE,
THAT'S ONE OF THE...
THE HIGH SIGNS THAT SOMEBODY
HAS... HAS MOVED INTO BURNOUT.
TIM: SO... SO THEY'VE...
THEY'VE LOST JOY.
STEVE: YES.
TIM: THEY... THEY DON'T
HAVE JOY IN... THE OLD SONG I
GREW UP, "JOY IN SERVING JESUS."
THEY'RE NOT EXPERIENCING ANY
REAL JOY IN SERVING JESUS.
IT'S KIND OF JUST ALL JUST
PLODDING ONE FOOT AFTER ANOTHER.
STEVE: IT'S JUST MY JOB.
TIM: WOW.
JODY: THAT'S A GREAT WAY
TO SYNTHESIZE IT.
TIM: WHEN... WHEN YOU
LOOK AT... AT THESE LAYERS, TALK
SPECIFICALLY ABOUT THE PHYSICAL.
WHAT ARE SOME OF
THE PHYSICAL THINGS THAT...
THAT THEY'RE GOING
TO SEE, THAT THEY STRUGGLE
WITH IN PARTICULAR?
STEVE: WELL, I THINK JODY
MENTIONED BEING TIRED,
JUST THE SENSE OF,
YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T WANT TO
GET OUT OF BED IN THE MORNING.
IF THERE'S A SENSE
OF BODY ACHES.
EVEN IF IT'S JUST
I DON'T FEEL LIKE GETTING OUT
OF THE CHAIR AT THE MOMENT.
YOU KNOW, SOME OF THAT...
THAT PHYSICAL STUFF.
TIM: LACK OF MOTIVATION.
STEVE: PLUS ALL OF US
KIND OF CARRY OUR STRESS
DIFFERENTLY,
AND THE TENSIONS AND STUFF.
BUT IF, YOU KNOW, MUSCLE
ACHES, HEADACHES,
I MEAN, PEOPLE ARE HAVING
HEART ATTACKS AND STROKES,
AND I MEAN, THERE ARE ALL OF
THESE THINGS BECAUSE OUR...
OUR BODIES AND
OUR EMOTIONAL BEINGS ARE
VERY INTIMATELY CONNECTED.
TIM: AND... AND THAT...
THAT DEFINITION WE LOOKED
AT TALKED ABOUT...
THAT IN OVER-STRESSED
SITUATIONS,
OUR BODY OVERPRODUCES
ADRENALINE TO KEEP US GOING.
AND REVVING OUR ENGINE,
AS I WOULD DESCRIBE IT,
REVVING OUR ENGINE THAT
HIGH AND KEEPING YOUR FOOT
TO THE... PEDAL TO THE METAL,
EVENTUALLY NO ENGINE'S DESIGNED
TO HANDLE THAT FOR VERY LONG.
STEVE: THAT'S RIGHT. IT'S TOXIC.
TIM: YEAH,
AND SO THE BODY WEARS OUT.
STEVE: YES.
TIM: WHAT ABOUT
YOU... YOU TALKED ABOUT
FEELING EMOTIONALLY...
EMOTIONALLY DISCONNECTED.
HOW DO YOU SEE THAT IMPACTING
THE FAMILIES AROUND?
JODY: WOW, I MEAN, IMAGINE THAT.
IF YOU'VE POURED IT OUT
TO YOUR CONGREGATION,
OR THE PEOPLE
THAT YOU SERVE, AND YOU COME
HOME AND YOU HAVE NOTHING LEFT,
NOTHING LEFT FOR YOUR WIFE OR
YOUR HUSBAND OR YOUR CHILDREN,
AND YOU JUST KIND OF
START TO DISENGAGE.
AND OFTEN IT'S
JUST A REALLY KIND OF
INSIDIOUSLY SLOW PROCESS.
YOU'RE JUST LESS AND
LESS INVOLVED IN THINGS...
BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE
THE EMOTIONAL ENERGY
TO PUT INTO HOME.
TIM: OKAY, SO LET ME
ASK YOU A QUESTION, JODY.
YOUR STORY WHEN YOU CAME
OFF THE FIELD AND YOUR
TEAM KIND OF IMPLODED,
WHAT WERE THE EMOTIONS
YOU BROUGHT BACK WITH YOU
AS YOU WRESTLED THROUGH THAT?
'CAUSE THIS WAS
REAL PERSONAL FOR YOU.
JODY: IT WAS. I EXPERIENCED
A LOT OF GUILT,
LIKE I SHOULD HAVE BEEN
ABLE TO HANDLE THIS BETTER.
I SHOULD... THE WHOLE...
THE WHOLE "SHOULD" LIST.
THE WHOLE "SHOULD" LIST WAS
CRASHING DOWN ON MY HEAD,
AND IT WAS HEAVIER
THAN I EVER IMAGINED.
BUT I... HAD I PRAYED MORE...
I SHOULD HAVE PRAYED MORE.
I SHOULD HAVE... I MEAN,
THE "SHOULD" LIST GOES ON.
AND I...
I WANTED TO... I'M EX... I AM
AN OVER-THE-TOP PEOPLE PERSON,
AND I JUST WANTED
TO ISOLATE. I JUST... I...
ANYBODY, ANY AMOUNT OF PEOPLE
JUST TOOK MORE ENERGY, MORE
EMOTIONAL ENERGY THAN I HAD.
SO I MEAN, THAT FOR ME
IS PERSONALLY WHEN I KNOW
I'M REACHING MY LIMIT,
IF I THINK OF PEOPLE AND I'M
THINKING, "OH, I JUST CAN'T,"
'CAUSE THAT'S NOT WHO
I INTRINSICALLY AM.
TIM: SO THE WAY YOU EXPERIENCED
IT, YOU FOUND THIS EMOTIONAL
AND RELATIONAL SHIFT...
AWAY FROM HOW YOU NORMALLY
FUNCTION TO JUST TO KIND
OF WITHDRAW AND COMING INSIDE,
KIND OF BATTENING DOWN
THE HATCHES KIND OF THING.
JODY: YEAH.
TIM: OKAY. HOW ABOUT YOU, STEVE?
WHEN YOU WALKED THROUGH THAT,
WHAT... WHAT DID YOU
FIND YOU WERE CARRYING?
STEVE: I THINK FOR ME IT...
IT WAS MAYBE SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT
AS... AS A HUSBAND, AS A FATHER,
THAT SENSE OF RESPONSIBILITY RAN
STRONG IN ME. THERE... THERE WAS
CERTAINLY A DESIRE TO WITHDRAW,
BUT I DIDN'T FEEL LIKE I CAN
AFFORD MYSELF THAT OPPORTUNITY.
I NEEDED TO STAY ENGAGED.
I NEEDED TO KEEP DOING IT.
SO I WOULD PLOD ON WITHOUT
A WHOLE LOT OF ENTHUSIASM
FOR WHAT I WAS DOING.
BUT I... I KNEW THAT
I HAD TO KEEP DOING IT
BECAUSE I HAD A WIFE,
I HAD CHILDREN
WHO WERE DEPENDENT UPON ME.
AND... AND I COULDN'T NOT DO IT.
TIM: AND SO IS IT FAIR, THEN,
TO SAY THAT MINISTRY BURNOUT
IS GOING TO TAKE A UNIQUE...
HAVE A UNIQUE TWIST
OR UNIQUE SPIN,
DEPENDING ON EACH
INDIVIDUAL'S STORY THAT
THEY BROUGHT INTO MINISTRY?
YOU FEELING THAT SENSE
OF RESPONSIBILITY THAT
YOU WERE TAUGHT EARLY ON.
YOU KNOW, THE GUY'S GOT TO
BE THE PROVIDER AND DO ALL THAT.
YOU HAD THE "SHOULD" LIST,
WHICH STRIKES ME AS BEING
A GREAT IDEA TO HELP PEOPLE.
IF YOU'VE GOT THIS LONG
LIST OF SHOULDS, GUESS WHAT?
YOU'RE... YOU'RE RIGHT
ON THE EDGE.
BUT YOU FELT... I WOULD
DESCRIBE IT AS FALSE GUILT.
IT WASN'T BECAUSE YOU WERE
DOING ANYTHING THAT WAS WRONG,
IT WASN'T THAT
YOU COULDN'T DO ENOUGH.
JODY: THAT AND... AND I MEAN, IN
HINDSIGHT I CAN TELL YOU THAT.
WHEN I WAS SMACK DAB
IN THE MIDDLE OF IT,
THERE WASN'T ANYTHING
THAT FELT FALSE ABOUT IT.
IT FELT VERY REAL,
AND I OWNED IT, UNFORTUNATELY.
TIM: OKAY, WHAT...
WHAT ABOUT THE, YOU KNOW,
THE FINANCIAL SIDE OF THIS?
HOW DOES THAT IMPACT?
YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE THINGS
FROM THE SURVEY...
WAS THAT MANY FEEL
UNDERPAID FOR ALL THIS
WORK THEY'RE PUTTING OUT.
THEY FEEL LIKE,
"YOU KNOW, I'M STILL
STRUGGLING TO MAKE ENDS MEET."
I'VE GOT FRIENDS
IN MINISTRY. THEY'RE
WORKING AT A SMALL CHURCH,
AND THEY'RE ALSO WORKING
A JOB AND ALL THAT, AND THEY'RE
STRUGGLING TO MAKE ENDS MEET.
DOES THAT PLAY INTO
A PERSON'S SENSE OF BURNOUT,
ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU THINK
OF THE RESPONSIBILITY ISSUE?
STEVE: OF COURSE IT DOES.
WHEN YOU LOOK AT...
AT MY KIDS CAN'T HAVE SOME
OF THE SAME OPPORTUNITIES THAT
MY NEIGHBOR'S KIDS HAVE...
BECAUSE THEY MAKE TWICE
AS MUCH OR MORE THAN I DO,
THERE CAN BE A RESENTMENT
ABOUT THINGS LIKE THAT.
THERE CAN BE A SENSE OF HOW
AM I GOING TO BE PROVIDED FOR?
OUR AMERICAN SYSTEM
SAYS HOW MUCH YOU MAKE
DETERMINES YOUR VALUE.
AND SO IF... IF WE
BELIEVE THAT, THEN THE...
THE AVERAGE PASTOR ISN'T MAKING
BARELY ENOUGH TO KEEP HIS...
HIS FAMILY PROVIDED FOR,
AND SOME ARE BI-VOCATIONAL.
AND SO AS THEY ARE TRYING
TO MOVE FORWARD, THE FINANCIAL
COMPONENT IS A HUGE PROBLEM,
BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE ENOUGH
TO MAKE ENDS MEET, AND THEY
ALSO END UP FEELING TRAPPED.
I... I DON'T HAVE
ENOUGH TO MAKE WHAT I NEED,
BUT I CAN'T DO ANYTHING ELSE.
TIM: 50 PERCENT OF THE MEN
SAID... MEN AND WOMEN WHO ARE
IN FULL-TIME MINISTRY...
SAID IF THEY COULD
LEAVE MINISTRY AND DO
SOMETHING ELSE THEY WOULD,
BUT THEY'RE AFRAID.
STEVE: AND I THINK THAT'S LOW.
TIM: THAT'S LOW?
STEVE: I THINK SO.
TIM: BECAUSE THEY FEEL
LIKE THEY... THEY DON'T
HAVE ANYTHING TO OFFER,
BECAUSE THIS IS WHAT THEY'VE
BEEN TRAINED FOR, AND THAT'S IT.
STEVE: YES.
TIM: THAT PUTS THEM IN A REAL
SCARY PLACE, DOESN'T IT?
STEVE: TRAPPED...
BEING TRAPPED IS ONE OF
THE WORST FEELINGS THERE IS.
TIM: DO YOU FIND THAT ACROSS
THE BOARD WITH PEOPLE WHO COME
THAT ARE WRESTLING WITH BURNOUT,
THAT THEY JUST KIND OF FEEL
LIKE THEY'RE BOXED IN,
THEY'RE TRAPPED?
STEVE: VERY MUCH. AND WHAT
I TRY TO TELL THEM... FOR...
FOR THE TYPICAL PASTOR,
ESPECIALLY IF YOU'RE LOOKING
AT A SENIOR PASTOR, A SENIOR
PASTOR'S BEEN A CEO OF A...
OF A DECENT SIZE CORPORATION
FOR SOME NUMBER OF YEARS.
THEY DON'T NECESSARILY SEE
IT THAT WAY. "ALL I KNOW
IS HOW TO PREACH."
OKAY, THAT'S GREAT,
AND THAT'S A GREAT GIFT.
TIM:
AND ADMINISTER THE BOARD AND
THE CHILDREN'S MINISTRY AND...
STEVE: EXACTLY,
ALL OF THE SKILLS THAT
IT TAKES TO RUN A CHURCH...
ARE EXACTLY WHAT YOU NEED
IN A CORPORATION SOMEWHERE,
OR A SMALL BUSINESS
OR ANY NUMBER OF THINGS.
YOU JUST HAVE TO LEARN
HOW TO PACKAGE THEM SO THAT...
YOU'RE SPEAKING THE
LANGUAGE OF WHOEVER IT IS THAT
YOU'RE... YOU'RE TALKING TO,
AND TRYING TO MAYBE
SELL YOURSELF TO...
IF GETTING OUT OF MINISTRY
IS THE THING THAT WOULD BE
BEST FOR YOU AT THIS TIME.
TIM: SO YOU IN...
AT ALONGSIDE MINISTRIES,
YOU WORK WITH PASTORS,
AND YOU WORK WITH MINISTRY
LEADERS AND MISSIONARIES.
JODY: YES.
TIM: IS THERE ANY DIFFERENCE
UNIQUELY THAT YOU SEE THAT
PASTORS IN OUR CULTURE HERE...
STRUGGLE WITH THAT YOU DON'T
SEE WITH MISSIONARIES, OR THAT
MISSIONARIES STRUGGLE WITH...
THAT YOU DON'T SEE WITH
PASTORS HERE? OR IS IT
PRETTY MUCH THE SAME?
STEVE: I'LL SPEAK
TO THE PASTOR PART.
FOR THE PASTORS,
I THINK ONE OF THE UNIQUE
THINGS THAT THEY FACE...
THAT THE MISSIONARIES DON'T
IS THAT THE PASTOR IS SITTING
THERE DAY AFTER DAY,
WEEK AFTER WEEK RIGHT UNDER
THE THUMB OF THEIR PEOPLE.
THEY ARE BEING WATCHED.
TIM: THAT FISH BOWL.
STEVE: YES, YES.
WHEN THEY DRIVE OUT,
MABEL ACROSS THE STREET...
KNOWS THAT THE PASTOR'S
LEAVING AND SHE KNOWS
WHEN HE'S COMING HOME.
AND... AND THEN THEY ALL TALK.
LIVING UNDER THAT KIND OF
A PRESSURE WHERE EVERYBODY'S
WATCHING ALL THE TIME,
AND THE PEOPLE WHO ARE
WATCHING ARE THE PEOPLE WHO
ARE PROVIDING YOUR PAYCHECK.
TIM: OKAY. SO THERE IS...
THERE IS PRESSURE THERE.
AM I PERFORMING UP
TO THEIR EXPECTATIONS?
STEVE: EXACTLY.
AND I DON'T REALLY KNOW
OF TOO MANY OTHER JOBS...
OUT THERE ANYWHERE
WHERE THAT IS THE CASE.
TIM: THAT'S ALMOST
A 24-HOUR SCRUTINY.
IT'S NOT JUST THE EIGHT HOURS
I'M IN THE OFFICE DOING MY JOB.
STEVE: EXACTLY.
TIM: AND THE TYPICAL THING
THAT MOST PEOPLE THINK,
WELL, THE PASTOR ONLY WORKS
ONE DAY A WEEK. HE'S GOT
A PRETTY EASY JOB, RIGHT?
STEVE: YEAH.
TIM: A JOKE THAT MOST OF THEM
LAUGH AT ON THE SURFACE,
BUT INSIDE THEY'RE LIKE,
"YOU DON'T HAVE A CLUE."
STEVE: THEY...
AND THEY DON'T. THEY DON'T.
TIM: SO AS...
AS WE THINK ABOUT THE...
THE LAYERS WE HAVE TO PEEL,
YOU'RE TALKING
ABOUT EMOTIONALLY, YOU'RE
TALKING ABOUT RELATIONALLY,
SPIRITUALLY, PHYSICALLY,
FINANCIALLY, ALL THOSE THINGS,
WHEN IT COMES TO TAKING SOME
FIRST STEPS TO START MOVING
IN A RIGHT DIRECTION AND...
AND MOVING TOWARDS
A HEALING PROCESS,
WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT
THIS A WHOLE LOT MORE IN DETAIL
IN PART TWO OF THIS WEBINAR,
BUT... BUT LET'S KIND OF
BEGIN. WHAT ARE SOME BEGINNING
STEPS THAT YOU TAKE...
WHEN YOU'RE WORKING WITH THOSE
WHO COME TO YOU IN SAYING,
"I... I'VE HAD IT. I'M...
MAYBE I'M... I'M CHECKING
OUT OF MINISTRY. I'M DONE,
"OR I DON'T KNOW IF I'M DONE,
BUT I CAN'T CONTINUE DOING IT
THE WAY I'M DOING IT."
WHAT ARE SOME STEPS?
JODY: CAN I BACK IT UP ONE
STEP, TIM? I JUST... I JUST
WANT TO SAY I JUST APPLAUD...
THE 26 PERCENT WHO CALLED IN
AND SAID. "I'M BURNT OUT."
AND THE OTHERS WHO ARE
SAYING THAT, "I THINK I'M
ON THE ROAD TO BURNOUT."
BECAUSE THAT'S REALLY
WHERE THE HEALING IS
GOING TO START, ACTUALLY.
TIM: SO CATCHING IT EARLIER...
JODY: WELL, NOT EVEN CATCHING IT
EARLIER, BUT BEING ABLE TO SAY,
"I'M HERE. I'M IN THIS
HURTING PLACE.
"I'M BURNED OUT.
I HAVE NOTHING LEFT TO GIVE."
THAT'S A HUGE STEP OFTEN
FOR... THAT BRINGS PEOPLE TO US.
TIM: SO IT'S RECOGNIZING,
IDENTIFYING THE PROBLEM.
JODY: YEAH, AND... AND THEN
TAKING SOME STEPS: CALLING
ALONGSIDE, CALLING A COUNSELOR,
CALLING A FRIEND EVEN
TO SAY, "I'M... I'M DONE.
I HAVE NOTHING LEFT TO GIVE."
SO BEING ABLE TO SAY AND...
AND LOOK... LOOK INSIDE,
'CAUSE THAT'S A SCARY
THING TO... TO DO.
TIM: IT'S ALMOST LIKE WE THINK
THAT PEOPLE IN MINISTRY,
PROFESSIONAL MINISTRY,
PASTORS IN PARTICULAR
AND MISSIONARIES,
WE ALMOST THINK THAT
THEY SHOULD BE SOMEHOW
SPIRITUALLY BULLETPROOF.
JODY: OH, THAT'S SO UNFAIR.
TIM: IT REALLY IS, ISN'T IT?
BECAUSE NO ONE ELSE GETS THAT.
STEVE: RIGHT.
TIM: AND NO ONE ELSE
GETS THAT KIND OF PRESSURE,
EXPECTATION DUMPED ON THEM.
AND THE PROBLEM IS THAT
WE TEND TO PICK IT UP.
YOU KNOW, IT'S ONE THING
IT GETS DUMPED ON YOU. THE OTHER
THING IS DO YOU PICK IT UP...
AND TRY TO LIVE UP TO SOMETHING
THAT IS TOTALLY UNREALISTIC AND
IMPOSSIBLE TO LIVE UP TO?
STEVE: AND SCRIPTURE
DOES POINT OUT THAT...
THOSE WHO ARE IN LEADERSHIP
DO HAVE A DIFFERENT STANDARD.
I MEAN, THAT IS... IS IN
THERE IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT
PAUL'S WRITING TO TIMOTHY.
YES, THE ELDERS HAVE TO BE...
MEET ALL THESE CRITERIA THAT...
THAT IS DIFFERENT.
BUT WE TEND TO
KIND OF DO THE SAME THING
THAT THE PHARISEES DID,
AND WE TAKE WHAT
GOD HAS SAID AND WE ADD,
AND WE ADD, AND WE INCREASE.
AND SO THEN WE'VE CREATED THIS
STANDARD THAT NO HUMAN BEING...
I DON'T KNOW IF JESUS COULD
LIVE UP TO THE STANDARD THAT WE
SOMETIMES SET FOR OUR PASTORS.
TIM: BECAUSE IT'S
A STANDARD OF PERFECTION.
STEVE: RIGHT, WHICH JESUS
CAN LIVE UP TO THAT ONE.
TIM: HE CAN, BUT EVEN
HE HAD HIS CRITICS.
STEVE: THAT'S RIGHT.
TIM: BECAUSE HE MANY TIMES DID
NOT MEET PEOPLE'S EXPECTATIONS
WHEN HE WOULD, YOU KNOW,
THE HEALING PART, LUKE 6.
HE WAS HEALING PEOPLE.
IT WASN'T LONG BEFORE
HE SAYS, "OKAY, WE'RE
HEADED OUT OF TOWN."
AND THEY GO LOOKING FOR HIM,
THEY CAN'T FIND HIM.
OUR PASTOR PREACHED
ABOUT THIS, YOU KNOW,
THEY COULDN'T FIND HIM,
'CAUSE HE WAS OUT
IN A SECLUDED PLACE.
AND YOU'RE LIKE,
"THERE WAS MORE PEOPLE TO HEAL."
AND HE SAID, LIKE,
"THAT'S NOT THE MAIN
REASON WHY I'M HERE."
AND SO HE DIDN'T BUY INTO
ALL THOSE EXPECTATIONS.
SO THAT'S WHERE I THINK
MANAGING THE EXPECTATIONS
INTERNALLY AND EXTERNALLY...
IS GOING TO BE A HUGE PART
OF TAKING SOME BEGINNING STEPS,
BUT IT'S RECOGNIZING YOU'VE GOT
A PROBLEM IN THE FIRST PLACE.
JODY: YEAH, THAT'S WHERE...
THAT'S... THAT'S THE BEST
PLACE TO START.
AND THEN CAN YOU ALLOW YOURSELF
TO BE VULNERABLE WITH SOMEONE,
WHETHER IT'S A COUNSELOR AT
ALONGSIDE, OR A TRUSTED FRIEND?
REALLY WHO...
WHO ARE YOU GOING TO LET IN?
WHO IS THE SAFE PERSON THAT YOU
CAN LET IN AND SHARE THIS WITH?
IS IT YOUR SPOUSE?
IS IT... I MEAN, WHO IS THAT?
AT LEAST THAT FIRST TINY STEP.
WHO CAN I BE TRANSPARENT ENOUGH
WITH TO SAY, "I'M TOAST."?
STEVE: CAN... CAN I JUMP
IN ON THAT? I... I AGREE
WITH THAT COMPLETELY.
AND WHAT I WOULD
JUST ADD TO THAT...
IS THAT OFTENTIMES THAT SAFE
PERSON IS NOT IN YOUR CHURCH.
AND... AND IT... IT REALLY...
IT BREAKS MY HEART TO SAY
THAT, BECAUSE I WANT THE CHURCH.
I BELIEVE IN THE CHURCH.
I LOVE THE CHURCH.
I WANT THE CHURCH TO BE
A SAFE PLACE FOR THE PASTOR,
BUT SADLY, IT OFTEN ISN'T,
AND... AND PASTORS KNOW THAT.
BUT GIVING THEM
PERMISSION, TO SAY...
YOU NEED TO CULTIVATE
RELATIONSHIPS OUTSIDE
OF YOUR CHURCH.
TIM: WHO... WHO GIVES THEM
PERMISSION TO DO THAT?
STEVE: WELL, RIGHT NOW I AM.
TIM: OKAY, SO ALL OF YOU
LISTENING KNOW STEVE IS GIVING
YOU PERMISSION TO DO THAT.
STEVE: THAT'S RIGHT. BE...
BECAUSE THEY DON'T OFTEN GET IT.
THE EXPECTATION, EVEN
FROM WITHIN THE CHURCH, IS,
"WE'RE HERE FOR YOU, PASTOR."
AND THEN AS SOON AS
YOU DISPLAY THE SLIGHTEST
BIT OF VULNERABILITY,
THE SLIGHTEST BIT OF
WEAKNESS, THE SLIGHTEST
BIT OF IMPERFECTION,
THEN, "WE'RE HERE TO
CRUCIFY YOU, PASTOR."
TIM: OKAY, SO...
SO PEOPLE TEND TO PANIC...
WHEN THEY SEE A VULNERABILITY,
POTENTIALLY, IN THEIR PASTOR.
BECAUSE IT'S LIKE,
OKAY, WHAT DO... WHO ARE
WE GOING TO FOLLOW NOW?
BECAUSE HE'S FALLEN OFF
THAT PEDESTAL, HE'S OFF
THE WHITE HORSE.
AND... AND NOW WHO DO
WE FOLLOW? SO I THINK FOR THOSE
WHO ARE IN MINISTRY TO SAY,
YOU KNOW, TO ADMIT YOU CAN'T
MEASURE UP TO ALL THIS, THAT
YOU SHOULDN'T PANIC, EITHER.
IT DOESN'T MEAN YOU'RE FAILING.
IT FEELS THAT WAY,
BUT IT DOESN'T MEAN
THAT YOU ARE A FAILURE.
JODY: AMEN.
TIM: BUT THAT TAKES A WHILE
TO UNPACK, DOESN'T IT?
SO WHEN PEOPLE COME
TO YOUR MINISTRY TO GO THROUGH,
YOU HAVE A THREE-WEEK PROGRAM,
IS THAT ONE OF THE ISSUES THAT
YOU HAVE TO HELP THEM OF...
OF THE FEAR OF BEING KNOWN?
STEVE: ABSOLUTELY. I BELIEVE
THAT ONE OF THE GREATEST NEEDS,
IF NOT THE GREATEST NEED WE
HUMAN BEINGS HAVE IS TO BE FULLY
KNOWN AND FULLY LOVED, AND...
TIM: SAY THAT AGAIN, 'CAUSE
I THINK THAT'S SO IMPORTANT.
STEVE: YEAH, I... OUR... OUR
GREATEST HUMAN NEED IS TO BE
FULLY KNOWN AND FULLY LOVED.
AND OBVIOUSLY GOD'S THE ONLY ONE
WHO CAN DO THAT AT THIS POINT.
BUT WE HAVE SO... WE...
WE ARE SO AFRAID TO BE FULLY
KNOWN IS NOT TO BE FULLY LOVED.
AND SO WE CREATE A PERSON THAT
WE THINK PEOPLE WILL LOVE...
TO GET US A... A SEMBLANCE
OF WHAT WE ARE CRAVING.
TIM: A FRIEND OF MINE
ONCE SAID THAT THE IDEA THE...
THE GREATEST EXPERIENCE IN
THE WORLD IS TO BE SEEN AT YOUR
WORST IN THE PRESENCE OF LOVE.
STEVE: ABSOLUTELY.
TIM: AND MOST OF US
HAVE NEVER HAD THAT EXPERIENCE
WITH ANOTHER HUMAN BEING.
AND SO THAT LEAVES PASTORS
IN A VERY VULNERABLE
PLACE, DOESN'T IT?
THEY GOTTA KEEP IT ALL INSIDE,
LIKE WHO DO YOU TRUST?
YOU SAID USUALLY SOMEBODY
NOT WITHIN YOUR CHURCH.
STEVE: IT'S... IT'S SO
RISKY TO BE VULNERABLE
WITH PEOPLE IN YOUR CHURCH.
AND LIKE I SAID, I SO WANT IT TO
BE A SAFE PLACE FOR THE PASTOR,
BUT I HAVE SEEN TIME AND
TIME AND TIME AGAIN...
WHERE THE PASTOR HAS CHOSEN OR
BEEN FORCED TO BE OPEN ABOUT
THINGS IN HIS OR HER LIFE,
AND THEY'VE BEEN LEFT OUT
IN THE COLD. THEY'VE BEEN FIRED
WITH HARDLY A MOMENT'S NOTICE.
AND... AND THOSE ARE THE KIND OF
STORIES THAT ARE FLOATING AROUND
THAT LEAVE PASTORS SAYING,
"I'M NOT TELLING
ANYBODY ANYTHING."
TIM: SO... SO A WORD
TO THOSE ELDERS THAT ARE
LISTENING IN TODAY IS...
IS CUT YOUR PASTOR SOME SLACK.
GIVE HIM A SAFE PLACE TO TALK,
AND IT MAY NOT BE WITH YOU, AND
YOU HAVE TO BE OKAY WITH THAT,
BECAUSE THERE MAY
BE TOO MUCH AT RISK.
AND MAYBE HE CAN LEARN HOW TO
BE MORE VULNERABLE WITH YOU,
BUT GIVE HIM A PLACE,
GIVE HIM... DIRECT TO SOMEONE.
AND MAYBE YOU NEED TO SAY,
"YOU KNOW, PASTOR, WE'RE
SEEING YOU WORN OUT.
"MAYBE YOU NEED
TO SEEK SOME COUNSELING,
AND WE'RE OKAY WITH THAT.
"AND WE'LL EVEN PAY FOR THAT."
I THINK THAT'S THE KIND OF THING
WHEN I'VE SEEN THAT HAPPEN,
WHEN I'VE HAD MINISTERS
REFERRED TO ME,
MAN, THEY'RE ABLE
TO FINALLY BEGIN TO LET GO
AND PROCESS SOME OF THIS.
AND THAT BECOMES A HUGE
TURNING POINT FOR THEM.
STEVE: YEAH.
TIM: AND YOU SEE THAT,
TOO, IN THE... IN THE FOLKS
THAT COME YOUR DIRECTION.
STEVE: ABSOLUTELY. WHEN THEY CAN
FINALLY START LOOKING AT...
BACK AT THEMSELVES WITHOUT
THE MINISTRY ROLE,
WITHOUT THE MASK THAT THEY WEAR,
AND SAY, "THIS IS WHO I AM,"
AND IN AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE
THERE'S LOVE AND ACCEPTANCE.
AND YOU KNOW, I'M NOT
EXPECTING PERFECTION.
I'M EXPECTING YOU TO
BE A BIG PILE OF MESS.
TIM: LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE.
STEVE: YEAH, JUST LIKE ME.
AND... AND THAT'S... THAT'S
WHAT WE NEED TO GET TO.
TIM: THE...THE IDEA
OF NOT PANICKING,
FOR THE PASTOR OR THE MINISTRY
LEADER WHO'S STRUGGLING,
TO SAY, "DON'T PANIC,
YOU'RE NOT A FAILURE."
BUT WHAT ABOUT PRAYING? WHAT
PART DOES PRAYER PLAY INTO THIS,
WHEN YOU SAID ONE OF THE
LAYERS THEY STRUGGLE WITH...
IS FEELING JUST SPIRITUALLY
EMACIATED, JUST DRIED UP.
DOES... DOES PRAYER
PLAY A ROLE IN THIS?
JODY: IT DOES, BUT WE FIND
THAT A LOT OF THE PASTORS WHO
COME TO US WHO ARE BURNT OUT,
THEY HAVE BEEN PRAYING.
THEY KNOW THAT.
THEY KNOW THAT ALREADY,
AND THEY HAVE BEEN PRAYING.
I MEAN, THEY'VE BEEN ON
THEIR FACE BEFORE THE LORD,
AND THEY JUST FEEL LIKE
IT'S GETTING THEM NOWHERE.
TIM: IT'S NOT WORKING.
JODY: IT'S NOT WORKING.
"WHERE IS GOD IN THIS?
I'M NOT HEARING HIS ANSWER.
"I'M NOT FEELING
HIS PRESENCE." AND TO
LET THEM KNOW THAT'S OKAY.
TIM: THAT... THAT PASTORS
GO THROUGH CRISES OF FAITH, AS
WELL, JUST LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE.
I MEAN, I WANT TO
KIND OF PUT THAT PHRASE OUT:
"JUST LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE."
JODY: YEAH. THERE'S NO SENSE
THAT YOU... THAT THEY... I WISH
WE DIDN'T PUT ON THEM...
IS WHAT I'D LIKE TO SAY, THIS
IDEA OF BEING SUPER CHRISTIAN,
BEING ABOVE ALL OF THAT.
TIM: SUPER SAINTS.
JODY: YEAH, EXACTLY,
SUPER SAINTS. THEY'RE
GOING TO EXPERIENCE THAT,
ESPECIALLY, I MEAN,
IN BURNOUT.
I THINK THAT...
I MEAN, I EXPERIENCE
THAT AT DIFFERENT TIMES,
NOT EVEN IN BURNOUT,
WHERE JUST IT'S A LITTLE
HARDER TO MAKE THAT CONNECTION.
AND WHEN YOU'RE IN
BURNOUT, YOU HAVE...
YOU'RE NOT RECEIVING
MUCH OF ANYTHING VERY WELL,
EXCEPT YOUR OWN
CONDEMNATION AT TIMES.
STEVE: BUT I THINK
THE POINT IS THEY CAN'T.
JODY: YEAH.
STEVE: YOU KNOW,
BECAUSE IT... IT...
THE MESSAGE WE GIVE IS,
"TRY HARDER AND YOU'LL
BREAK THROUGH."
AND... AND SO MANY OF
THEM HAVE TRIED AND TRIED
AND TRIED AND THEY SAY,
"I'VE GOT... I'VE GOT NO...
NOTHING LEFT IN THE TANK
TO TRY HARDER.
"AND SO THAT
MEANS I'M A FAILURE.
I'VE DONE IT WRONG. I'M BAD,"
INSTEAD OF SAYING,
"YOU KNOW WHAT? WHEN
YOU GET TO THAT POINT,
"ALL BY YOURSELF THERE IS LITTLE
TO NOTHING THAT YOU CAN DO."
TIM: HUMBLING YOURSELF
AND ASKING FOR HELP
IS HARD FOR ANYBODY,
BUT SOMEONE WHO'S A LEADER
IN A MINISTRY, ESPECIALLY
DIFFICULT. THAT'S A TALL ORDER.
JODY: SOMETIMES IT'S
NOT EVEN A... A MATTER OF
HUMILITY, TIM, I THINK,
IT'S A MATTER OF JUST
BEING COMPLETELY UNDONE,
JUST AN INABILITY TO...
I WOULDN'T EVEN SAY IT'S PRIDE.
IT'S BEING THAT... THAT EMPTY.
STEVE: AND TERRIFIED.
JODY:
YEAH, SCARED HALF TO DEATH.
STEVE: WHEN... WHEN I'M HONEST,
MY JOB IS IN JEOPARDY. SO IF...
IF I'M GOING TO SHARE
MY STUFF WITH YOU AND THEN
NEXT WEEK I MAY NOT HAVE A JOB,
AND THE NEXT CHURCH ISN'T
GOING TO HIRE ME BECAUSE
THIS CHURCH FIRED ME,
THEN WHAT DO I DO?
IF I AM LITERALLY TRAPPED
IN IT'S THIS OR NOTHING...
YOU KNOW, I...
I DON'T WANT TO DO ANYTHING
THAT MAY JEOPARDIZE THAT.
TIM: YOUR BACK'S TO THE WALL.
STEVE: IT ABSOLUTELY IS.
TIM: AND THAT PUTS
PASTORS AND MINISTRY LEADERS
IN A REALLY HARD PLACE.
AND... AND THIS HAS BEEN
A GREAT DISCUSSION,
BUT WE'VE GOT SOME
QUESTIONS WE NEED TO GET
TO FROM OUR AUDIENCE.
SOME OF THE QUESTIONS
THEY HAVE IS KEVIN ASKED THIS,
"HOW SHOULD A PASTOR
HANDLE POWER BROKERS IN
HIS CHURCH ENVIRONMENT?"
STEVE: YOU MEAN INSTEAD
OF JUST SLAPPING THEM?
TIM: YEAH, PROBABLY
THAT WOULD NOT BE A GOOD
SUGGESTION. BUT... BUT...
JODY: OKAY, WE'LL LET
STEVE TAKE THIS QUESTION.
TIM: YEAH, YOU'LL LET
HIM TAKE THAT ONE? OKAY.
STEVE, YOU'RE ON.
IT'S UP TO YOU.
HOW DO YOU HANDLE THAT
IN A MINISTRY CONTEXT?
WHAT DOES THAT LOOK LIKE?
STEVE: YOU KNOW, THAT'S ANOTHER
THING. WE'VE SAID IT KIND OF
OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.
EVERY SITUATION'S DIFFERENT,
AND HOW THINGS ARE HANDLED ARE
DIFFERENT IN EVERY SITUATION.
AND THIS IS ANOTHER
ONE OF THOSE, TOO.
I DON'T WANT TO GIVE SIMPLISTIC
ANSWERS TO COMPLEX SITUATIONS,
BUT I WILL SAY A FEW
THINGS. ONE IS, I THINK,
TO RECOGNIZE THAT...
SOMETIMES THERE'S
NOTHING YOU CAN DO.
SOMETIMES THERE HAS BEEN
SOMEBODY WHO'S GOT A...
IS IN A POWER POSITION
IN THE CHURCH, MAY HAVE
BEEN THERE FOR DECADES,
MAY BE FOLLOWING FROM THEIR...
THEIR DADDY AND THEIR GRANDDADDY
WHO HAVE BEEN IN THAT POSITION,
AND HERE COMES IN THIS
PASTOR THINKING, "OKAY,
THIS IS MY CHURCH,
"AND I... I'VE GOT SOME VISION,
I'VE GOT SOME EXCITEMENT,
I'M GOING TO DO SOME THINGS."
SOMETIMES THE POINT
IS RECOGNIZING WHEN YOU
JUST CAN'T MAKE THE CHANGE.
TIM: AND THAT MAYBE SOMETIMES,
ESPECIALLY, I THINK YOU'RE
TALKING THERE ABOUT MAYBE...
THE AVERAGE CHURCH IN AMERICA,
WHICH IS A SMALLER CHURCH,
WHERE THERE'S A LOT OF
FAMILY CONNECTION IN LEADERSHIP,
THAT IT'S KIND OF LIKE THIS
FAMILY IS THE POWER FAMILY.
STEVE: YES.
TIM: WHEN YOU GET TO LARGE
CHURCHES, THEN IT'S ALMOST
THE CORPORATE POWER...
TYPE OF THING GOING ON THERE
AND WHO ARE YOU KEEPING HAPPY?
I THINK THAT KIND OF THING
IS LOOKING AT EACH CONTEXT,
AND SAYING THERE ARE
JUST SOME PLAIN UNHEALTHY
MINISTRY ENVIRONMENTS OUT THERE.
AND SOMETIMES GETTING AWAY
FROM THAT AND SAYING, "DO I...
DO I EVEN GO BACK INTO THAT?"
OR DO I NEED... THE SYSTEM
IS TOO BAD, SAY, IT'S...
JODY: TOXIC.
TIM: TOXIC. THAT'S
A BETTER WORD. THE SYSTEM
IS TOO TOXIC AND UNHEALTHY,
THAT FOR ME TO REMAIN HEALTHY
I'VE GOT TO STEP AWAY.
STEVE: AND OFTENTIMES THE...
THE PASTOR WHO CHOOSES
TO TACKLE THAT...
OFTEN BECOMES
THE SACRIFICIAL LAMB.
HE IS NOT THERE TO SEE THE FRUIT
THAT'S GOING TO COME OF IT.
HE... HE'S TARRED AND FEATHERED
AND SENT OUT ON A RAIL,
AND YET SOMETHING MAY
HAVE GOTTEN ROLLING.
AND I THINK A PASTOR
NEEDS TO ASK HIM OR
HERSELF THAT QUESTION.
AM I WILLING TO BE THAT
IN THE INTEREST OF POSSIBLY?
TIM: AM I... AM I WILLING
TO PLANT THE FIRST SEED,
AND IT MAY BE THE SECOND
OR THIRD PASTOR AFTER ME...
THAT MAY REAP A HARVEST
THAT I STARTED A SEED?
THAT'S A GOOD POINT. IT'S NOT
ALWAYS FOR US TO SEE THAT.
HEY, JIMMY ASKED
THIS QUESTION. "I FEEL THAT
I HAVE COMPASSION FATIGUE.
"I KNOW I NEED TO CARE
MORE ABOUT MY CHURCH MEMBERS
AND THEIR STRUGGLES,
"BUT I FEEL LIKE I'M JUST
TOO TIRED, TIRED IN MENTAL,
"EMOTIONAL, AND SPIRITUAL.
WHAT SHOULD I DO?" JODY?
JODY: WELL, I WOULD SAY
I HEAR A BIG "SHOULD" IN THERE:
"I NEED TO CARE MORE."
AND SO THAT... THAT...
THAT BIG "SHOULD"...
IS ADDING WEIGHT TO
THIS EXHAUSTED BROTHER'S
SHOULDERS, I THINK.
THAT WHAT, YOU KNOW, WHAT'S
HE TAKING IN? IS HE TAKING
IN SUSTENANCE EMOTIONALLY,
SPIRITUALLY, YOU KNOW, TO BE
ABLE TO GIVE BACK OUT AGAIN?
MAYBE THE BEST THING
FOR HIM IS TO TAKE A BREAK.
STEP AWAY, GET FED AGAIN,
YOU KNOW, AND RE-ENERGIZE.
TAKE A LOOK AT THINGS,
ASSESS THE SITUATION.
SEE WHERE, YOU KNOW,
WHERE HE CAN IF HE... IF HE
GOES BACK INTO THAT SITUATION,
WHERE HE CAN DO THINGS
A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENTLY.
BOUNDARIES, BOY,
THAT'S A HUGE... WE COULD
TALK ABOUT THAT FOR HOURS.
TIM: AND... AND WE...
AND WE WILL IN THE NEXT
ONE. WE'LL DO THAT.
KEVIN ASKED THIS, "HOW CAN
A PASTOR CONSTRUCT..." KEVIN,
YOU REALLY HELPED US OUT HERE.
"HOW CAN A PASTOR CONSTRUCT
BOUNDARIES IN HIS LIFE TO
PREVENT BURNOUT FROM HAPPENING?"
YOU STARTED THAT ONE.
JODY: WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING.
TIM: IT'S... IT'S LEARNING
TO SAY NO, ISN'T IT?
JODY: YEAH, BUT YOU KNOW, THAT
PHRASE, THOUGH, TIM, I HAVE
TO SAY IT JUST SOUNDS SO...
IT SOUNDS SIMPLE
BUT IT'S JUST NOT EASY,
ESPECIALLY IF YOU'VE
GOT A HISTORY OF HAVING
REALLY POROUS BOUNDARIES.
BECAUSE NOBODY HATES IT...
OR NOBODY HATES IT MORE...
THAN WHEN WE START
TO SET BOUNDARIES THAN
BOUNDARY-BREAKERS, YOU KNOW.
WE... YOU'RE GOING TO GET
A LOT OF PUSHBACK ON THAT.
SO IT IS LEARNING
TO SAY NO, BUT THERE'S A...
IT'S A MUCH MORE COMPLEX, YEAH.
TIM: ESPECIALLY IF WE FIND
THAT OUR NATURAL BENT IS
TO BE A PEOPLE PLEASER.
TO ESTABLISH A BOUNDARY SAYS
I'M NOT ALLOWING THEIR OPINION
OF ME TO DEFINE WHO I AM.
THAT... THAT TAKES A LOT OF
WORK TO BE ABLE TO RELAX AND
EASE INTO THAT, DOESN'T IT?
STEVE: AND IF THAT'S THE ONLY
MESSAGE YOU'RE GETTING,
THAT YOUR VALUE IS BASED ON
SAYING YES TO ME OR YES TO US,
IT... I... I'VE SEEN SOME OF THE
STRONGEST PEOPLE GET BROKEN...
OVER A LENGTHY PERIOD
OF TIME IN TOXIC SYSTEMS.
TIM: YEAH. EMMANUEL ASKED THIS,
"CAN YOU SHED MORE LIGHT...
"ON YOUR DEFINITION
OF COMPASSION FATIGUE?
"HOW IS THIS DEFINITION
A CAUSE OF PASTORAL BURNOUT?"
I THINK YOU MADE A LITTLE BIT OF
A DISTINCTION BETWEEN THE TWO.
JODY: YEAH, AND I WOULD SAY
THAT COMPASSION FATIGUE...
DOESN'T HAVE TO BE A CAUSE
OF PASTORAL BURNOUT.
I'D MAKE THAT DISTINCTION
FIRST. IT CAN BE A PART
OF YOUR BURNOUT.
TIM: SO IT CAN CONTRIBUTE TO?
JODY: IT CAN CONTRIBUTE TO IT,
BUT IT MAY NOT BE A CAUSE OF IT.
PEOPLE CAN EX...
EXPERIENCE COMPASSION FATIGUE,
AND IT... THE ONSET IS RAPID.
THEY GET A LITTLE...
THEY STEP BACK FROM A SITUATION,
GET REST, GET FED, AND THEN
THEY'RE READY TO GO OUT AGAIN.
IT... PASTORAL BURNOUT HAPPENS
OVER A LONGER TIME FRAME,
AND MAYBE COMPASSION
FATIGUE IS PLAYING INTO IT,
BUT I WOULDN'T SAY IT'S A CAUSE
AND EFFECT RELATIONSHIP.
WHAT WOULD YOU SAY
ON THAT, STEVE?
STEVE: I WOULD... I WOULD PUT
COMPASSION FATIGUE AS A... AS
ONE SUB-CATEGORY UNDER BURNOUT.
COMPASSION FATIGUE WOULD COME
FROM SOMEBODY WHO... WHO IS
DOING A LOT OF CARING,
AS YOU SAID, CARE... PEOPLE
IN CAREGIVING MINISTRIES.
I'M TIRED OF THAT. I'VE...
I'VE BEEN DOING A LOT OF THAT.
BURNOUT IS WHEN
I KEEP GIVING AND GIVING
AND I AM NOT GETTING BACK.
TIM: NOTHING'S BEING
REPLENISHED.
STEVE: IF... IF I'M NOT BEING
REPLENISHED FOR WHATEVER REASON,
WHETHER IT'S IN
A CAREGIVING MINISTRY OR
ANY OTHER KIND OF WORK.
IF I AM NOT GETTING
SOMETHING BACK FOR ALL
THAT I'M PUTTING OUT,
THEN MY TANK IS GOING
TO GET LESS AND LESS AND
LESS TILL I HAVE NOTHING.
TIM: OKAY. KEVIN ADDS
THIS. HE SAYS,
"I HAVE BEEN HARSHLY
AND CALLOUSLY OPPRESSED
BY CHURCH LEADERS...
"WHO HAVE MOVED FROM
BEING SERVANTS TO OWNERS
MENTALITY WITHIN THE CHURCH."
STEVE: YEAH, YEAH.
TIM: HOW CAN A PASTOR
POSSIBLY INTERACT WITH
PEOPLE WHO MANIFEST THIS?
THEY MOVE FROM BEING THE
SERVANTS TO NOW THEY OWN IT.
THAT'S... IT'S THEIRS.
STEVE: I... THAT'S...
THAT'S A CHALLENGING ONE.
ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I WOULD
SAY IS TO ANY PASTOR, WHAT
YOU'RE TRYING TO DO IS MODEL.
SHOW
YOUR PEOPLE WHAT IT IS TO HOLD
OPEN... OPENLY WHAT WE'RE DOING,
AND SAY, "ALL RIGHT, THIS IS...
THIS IS GOD'S WORK."
SOMETIMES WE NEED TO JUMP IN
AND WE NEED TO DO THINGS AND
CONFRONT THEM QUITE STRONGLY.
I GENERALLY DON'T RECOMMEND THAT
A PASTOR DOES THAT ALL ALONE.
TIM: SO HE HAS TO HAVE SUPPORT
FROM OTHER BOARD MEMBERS OR...
STEVE: FROM SOMEWHERE, WHETHER
IT'S FROM A... A DISTRICT
SUPERINTENDENT, YOU KNOW,
WHETHER THERE'S A...
A DENOMINATIONAL HIERARCHY
THAT CAN BE BROUGHT INTO IT.
BUT IF... SOMETHING
THAT EXTREME, DOING IT ALONE,
YOU'RE NOT GOING TO
END UP ON THE POSITIVE
END OF THAT EQUATION.
TIM: WE WOULD PROBABLY RECOMMEND
THAT FOR JUST ABOUT ANYTHING.
IF YOU'RE TRYING TO
DO IT SOLO, I MEAN, THAT...
THAT IS A TOUGH ROW TO HOE.
I MEAN, YOU'VE GOT TO
REALLY BE ABLE TO HAVE
SUPPORT AROUND YOU TO...
TO BE ABLE TO MOVE INTO
SOME OF THAT TERRITORY.
LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT
ANOTHER QUESTION HERE.
YOLANDA ASKED THIS,
"HOW DO YOU HELP THE SENIOR
PASTOR FROM BEING BURNED OUT
WHEN YOU'RE BURNED OUT?"
THIS IS A... ANOTHER STAFF
MEMBER, I THINK, TALKING.
WHAT DO YOU DO
WHEN SOMEONE NEEDS...
NEEDS HELP TO KEEP GOING?
JODY: THAT... THAT IS HARD
IF YOU HAVE NOTHING TO GIVE.
I THINK ONE OF THE PLACES
THAT WE START AT ALONGSIDE
IS THAT WE JUST REALLY LISTEN.
I THINK THAT TO HEAR
SOMEONE'S HEART AND...
AND NOT TRY TO FIX IT,
JUST TO REALLY LISTEN.
AND I THINK FOR ALL THOSE WHO
ARE... ARE TUNED IN TODAY BUT...
AND ARE IN HELPING ROLES OF...
OF THE... OF PASTORS OR
OTHER MINISTRY SERVANTS IS,
ARE YOU LISTENING TO THEM?
CAN YOU LISTEN WITHOUT TRYING
TO FIX IT? CAN... DO THEY FEEL
LIKE THEY'VE BEEN HEARD?
TIM: AND THAT'S HARD FOR
PEOPLE IN MINISTRY WHO TEND TO
WANT TO BE FIXERS, ISN'T IT?
JODY: OH, YEAH.
TIM: YOU KNOW, THAT'S KIND OF
THE BENT OF PEOPLE. I WANT TO
GO IN. I WANT TO BE HELPFUL.
AND SOMETIMES THE BEST HELP
IS JUST SITTING BACK TO LISTEN.
JODY: AND I WOULD HOPE
THAT YOLANDA HAS SOMEBODY
WHO'S LISTENING TO HER.
TIM:
OR SHE NEEDS TO FIND SOMEBODY
WHO WILL LISTEN TO HER, TOO.
JODY: YEAH, SOMEBODY SAFE.
TIM: OKAY, PAUL... PAUL'S
COMMENT IS THIS. "I PASTOR
A VERY SMALL BIBLE CHURCH.
"IT'S ALL WE CAN DO
TO PAY RENT AND BILLS,
NOT MUCH LEFT FOR SALARY.
"I KNOW JESUS IS IN CHARGE,
BUT HOW DO I NOT WORRY
ABOUT MY FINANCES?
"WE HAVE A SMALL
HANDFUL OF SUPPORTERS...
"WHO DON'T ALWAYS AGREE WITH
CERTAIN DOCTRINAL TEACHING.
"I FEEL LIKE I MUST
TAP DANCE AROUND THEM.
"I KNOW THIS (HERE'S OUR
WORD AGAIN) SHOULDN'T BE."
I MEAN, I THINK YOUR FIRST
THING ABOUT THE "SHOULDS"...
IS WE SHOULD ALL MAKE A LIST
OF WHAT ARE ALL THE "SHOULDS"
WE TEND TO LIVE BY,
AND START CHECKING THOSE OFF.
BECAUSE THAT... THAT JUST...
THAT JUST KIND OF STRUCK ME...
THAT THAT'S SOMETHING
THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT
FOR US TO PAY ATTENTION.
BUT... BUT WHAT ABOUT
PAUL'S COMMENTS THERE?
HOW WOULD YOU RESPOND
TO HIM ABOUT THE... THE FIN...
TAP DANCING HIS TEACHING
AROUND THOSE WHO ARE
THE FINANCIAL SUPPORTERS,
'CAUSE THEY JUST DON'T
HAVE THAT MUCH TO KEEP GOING?
JODY: WOW, IT SOUNDS LIKE
HE'S A HOSTAGE TO HIS...
TO THE CONTRIBUTORS.
BUT I... I HEAR HIM
ALSO SAYING THAT HE REALLY
BELIEVES THAT GOD IS IN IT.
IT'S SUCH A COMPLEX
QUESTION. GOD'S IN IT.
HE'S GOING TO PROVIDE.
I DO NOT SAY....
I MEAN, WHEN WE HAVEN'T
SAT DOWN AND TALKED...
AND REALLY HEARD SOMEBODY'S
HEART, BUT ARE YOU GOING TO LET
YOURSELF BE HOSTAGE TO THAT?
THAT'S... THAT'S TOUGH.
THAT... THAT'S AN INFORMED
DECISION TO MAKE.
TIM: THAT'S A HA...
THAT'S A HARD...
I MEAN, THOSE ARE...
THOSE ARE VERY COMPLEX ISSUES.
AND I THINK WHAT I'M
HEARING YOU SAYING IS YOU NEED
SOMEONE TO UNPACK THAT WITH.
YOU KNOW, WE CAN'T GIVE A
BAND-AID TO PUT OVER IT AND SAY,
"THERE, THAT'LL MAKE IT ALL
BETTER." BECAUSE THAT WOULD
BE DOING A DISSERVICE.
JODY: ABSOLUTELY.
TIM: BUT TO SAY, "WOW,
THAT'S SOMETHING YOU'VE
REALLY..." IT'S A REAL ISSUE.
IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT,
BUT YOU HAVE TO HAVE SOMEBODY
THAT YOU CAN BEGIN TO...
TO TALK THAT THROUGH
WITH THAT YOU TRUST.
STEVE: I THINK IT'S ALSO
IMPORTANT TO RECOGNIZE THAT
THOSE KIND OF ISSUES ARE...
ARE GOING TO BE IN THE CHURCH
UNTIL CHRIST RETURNS.
TIM: YES. AND THEY AREN'T
NEW ISSUES EITHER.
STEVE: THEY AREN'T NEW ISSUES.
AND... AND I... I UNDERSTAND
HOW EXHAUSTING THEY ARE,
HOW FRUSTRATING THEY ARE,
ESPECIALLY IF YOU DON'T
HAVE ENOUGH MONEY...
TO MAKE ENDS MEET
FOR YOUR OWN FAMILY.
THEY ARE... WE NEED TO DECIDE
AS WE ARE IN THE MINISTRY, HOW
MUCH DANCING AM I WILLING TO DO?
BECAUSE IF...
IF I EXPECT MY CONGREGATION
TO BE ALL HEALTHY PEOPLE,
YOU KNOW, JESUS SAID HE DIDN'T
COME FOR THE HEALTHY.
AND I MEAN,
I UNDERSTAND THE IMPLICATION
IS WE'RE ALL SICK, YES.
SO THE CHURCH
IS FULL OF SICK PEOPLE.
AND SO IT GETS FRUSTRATING...
WHEN YOU HAVE TO CONTINUALLY
DEAL WITH UNHEALTHY PEOPLE,
BUT THAT ISN'T GOING TO CHANGE.
AND SO BEING ABLE
TO LOOK AT IT AND SAY,
HOW MUCH CAN I DEAL WITH?
AND WHAT I COULD HAVE DEALT
WITH RIGHT OUT OF SEMINARY,
AND WHAT I CAN DEAL WITH
15-20 YEARS LATER MIGHT BE
A VERY DIFFERENT ANSWER.
TIM: YEAH, YEAH, AND... AND
THAT'S WHERE, YOU KNOW, AGAIN,
THE COMPLEXITY
OF EACH SITUATION.
JODY: OH, YEAH.
TIM: AND TAKING THE TIME TO
UNPACK THAT, PEEL THAT ONION,
TO SAY WHAT'S REALLY GOING ON
THERE. IT... IT IS A HARD ISSUE.
NOW, REBECCA ASKED THIS
QUESTION. SHE SAYS, "I'M A
MISSIONARY DEALING WITH BURNOUT.
"WHAT CAN YOU RECOMMEND TO
CHURCH LEADERS LISTENING...
"TO HELP WITH THEIR
MISSIONARIES, THEIR
SUPPORTING CHURCHES?"
OKAY, YOU... YOU BOTH HAVE
THAT EXPERIENCE. SHE'S...
REBECCA'S LOOKING FOR SOME HELP
HERE. WHAT WOULD YOU SUGGEST?
HOW DO YOU SENSITIZE
CHURCH BOARDS, LEADERS,
MISSIONARY SOCIETIES...
IN A CHURCH THAT ARE
SUPPORTING MISSIONARIES THAT
ARE BURNED OUT OUT THERE?
STEVE: YEAH,
SHE'S SPEAKING TO OUR HEART.
JODY: YEAH, SHE IS
SPEAKING TO OUR HEART.
I WOULD SAY, REBECCA, FIND
SOMEBODY THAT YOU CAN TRUST THAT
IS A SAFE PERSON TO TALK TO,
AND START DOWN THIS ROAD
OF EDUCATING DONORS WHAT
IT MEANS TO BE BURNED OUT,
WHAT THAT LOOKS LIKE.
AND YOU'RE NOT GOING TO POUR
OUT YOUR HEART TO EVERYBODY,
BUT EVEN SHARING A LITTLE
BIT OF YOUR HEART, I THINK,
GOES A LONG WAY.
WOW. IT... THAT... AGAIN THAT
IS A VERY COMPLICATED ISSUE.
BUT FINDING SOMEONE, SOMEONE
SAFE, TO BE ABLE TO TALK TO,
TO BE ABLE TO UNPACK IT WITH,
AND... AND THEN, YOU KNOW,
PROCEED FROM THERE.
BUT I THINK EVEN EDUCATING OUR
DONORS ON WHAT BURNOUT IS...
AND WHAT THAT LOOKS LIKE
GOES A LONG WAY.
STEVE: YOU'VE GOT,
FROM WHAT I'VE HEARD, SOME
REALLY FANTASTIC DONORS.
JODY: I DO.
STEVE: AND YOU KNOW, I THINK
SOMETIMES WHAT WE NEED TO DO...
IS GET SOMEBODY ELSE
TO DO THE EDUCATING.
IT SOUNDS VERY SELF-SERVING
IF I COME IN AND START
TELLING YOU ABOUT BURNOUT.
AND SO SOMETIMES A MISSION
ORGANIZATION WILL HAVE
SOMEBODY WHO CAN STEP IN.
THERE ARE ORGANIZATIONS LIKE
ALONGSIDE, LIKE THERE....
THERE'RE SEVERAL MISSION
ORGANIZATIONS THAT ARE
GETTING INTO CHURCHES,
AND HELPING CHURCHES WITH
HOW DO WE DEAL MORE EFFECTIVELY
WITH OUR MISSIONARIES?
AND I... I THINK THERE ARE
LOTS OF PEOPLE WHO REALLY WANT
TO KNOW, BUT THEY DON'T KNOW.
AND THEY DON'T KNOW
WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE
A MISSIONARY OR A PASTOR.
AND SO HAVING SOMEBODY ELSE
ADVOCATE FOR YOU,
I THINK, CAN BE REALLY,
REALLY IMPORTANT.
TIM: ONE OF THE RESOURCES
WE'RE GOING TO REFER TO
PEOPLE AFTER THE WEBINAR...
THAT WE HAVE A LINK TO
ON OUR... ON OUR PAGE IS THE...
THE LEADING ON EMPTY BOOK
THAT YOU GUYS USE,
THAT WHEN YOU'RE
LEADING ON EMPTY IT...
IT DOESN'T GO VERY FAR.
AND SO WE'RE RECOMMENDING THAT
PEOPLE TAKE A LOOK AT THAT ONE,
AND I THINK EVEN GETTING
PEOPLE TO READ SOMETHING.
IF YOU'RE NOT... IF YOU'RE NOT
SAYING THAT PERSONALLY TO THEM,
IF YOU GET... IF YOU CAN
GET THEM TO READ SOMETHING,
THEN IT'S MORE THE OBJECTIVE
THIRD PERSON WHO'S SAYING,
"HEY, THERE'S AN ISSUE HERE
THAT MAYBE WE SHOULD START
PAYING ATTENTION TO,
"AND ASK... ASKING ABOUT."
AND MAYBE IT'S GOING ON
AT HOME AND NOT JUST WITH
OUR MISSIONARIES OUT THERE.
HEY, LET'S TRY TO SQUEEZE
ONE MORE IN BEFORE WE'RE
DONE HERE. DAN ASKED THIS.
HE SAYS, "CAN THE STRESS
OF TRYING TO GROW A CHURCH
LEAD TO BURNOUT?"
STEVE: YEAH, EASIER THAN
FALLING OFF A LOG.
TIM: BECAUSE THAT REALLY...
I MEAN, STARTING OUT A CHURCH...
REQUIRES A TON OF INVESTMENT,
DOESN'T IT? A CHURCH PLANT?
STEVE: YES, IT'S TIME. IT'S
ENERGY FOR ME, FOR MY FAMILY,
PLUS IT TAPS INTO ALL
MY OWN INSECURITIES...
WHEN THINGS AREN'T GOING
THE WAY THAT I HOPED THAT
THEY WOULD, AND...
TIM: IT ALL FALLS BACK TO YOU.
STEVE: IT ALL IS MY
RESPONSIBILITY. IT'S MY FAULT,
AND SO ALL OF MY PERSONAL
ISSUES AND INSECURITIES COME
TO THE FORE. SO ABSOLUTELY.
TIM: YEAH, SO LET ME,
IN... IN THAT KIND OF A...
OF... OF A STRUGGLE,
I MEAN, ADMIRABLE, AND WE
NEED CHURCH PLANTERS OUT THERE,
BUT RECOGNIZE THERE'S
A LIABILITY, THAT YOU
HAVE TO PAY ATTENTION.
I THINK THAT'S WHERE
AN EDUCATION WOULD
DO A REALLY GOOD JOB...
IF WE WOULD HELP
THEM UNDERSTAND, THIS IS
WHAT YOU'RE VULNERABLE TO.
PAY ATTENTION, BE AWARE OF THAT.
HEY, GUYS, IT HAS BEEN
GREAT CHATTING WITH YOU.
I JUST WANT TO SHARE WITH YOU
WE HAVE SOME RESOURCES FOR YOU.
WE WANT YOU TO BE ABLE TO TAKE
A LOOK AT THOSE FREE RESOURCES.
AND THERE YOU'LL FIND A LINK,
A PAGE TO THIS PARTICULAR
WEBINAR. AND LOOK FOR THAT ICON.
WHEN YOU CLICK ON THAT, YOU'RE
GOING TO SEE ALL THE VARIETY
OF SOURCES LISTED THERE.
WE HAVE THE... THE LITTLE TEST
YOU CAN TAKE TO SEE IF YOU'RE
REALLY INTO BURNOUT,
TO DO A LITTLE
SELF-ANALYSIS THERE.
WE HAVE A LINK TO SEVERAL
BOOKS THAT WILL ENCOURAGE
YOU IN YOUR MINISTRY.
SO WE'D ENCOURAGE
YOU TO TAKE ADVANTAGE
OF THAT FIRST AND FOREMOST.
AND FINALLY, YOU KNOW,
OUR PRAYER IS THAT...
THAT WE'VE HELPED YOU BETTER
THINK THROUGH AND TAKE A LOOK
AND SEE IF YOU CAN IDENTIFY,
AM I AT RISK? DO I KNOW
SOMEONE WHO'S AT RISK?
AND MAYBE SOMEBODY
I WANT TO REFER BACK
TO LISTEN TO THE AUDIO,
OR EVENTUALLY WATCH
THE VIDEO FROM THIS WEBINAR
TO BE ABLE TO HELP YOU.
AND YOU KNOW,
IT'S OUR HOPE THAT YOU WILL
STRUGGLE MORE EFFECTIVELY.
STRUGGLE'S ALWAYS GOING
TO BE A PART OF THE ISSUE,
BUT THAT YOU WILL BE ABLE
TO STRUGGLE MORE EFFECTIVELY...
AS A MINISTER WHO'S
PURSUING THE MINISTRY THAT
GOD HAS CALLED YOU TO,
BUT NOT ALLOWING IT
TO ERODE YOUR HEART.
PROTECT YOUR HEART SO THAT
YOU STILL ARE REPLENISHING,
AND BEING ABLE TO
GIVE OUT TO OTHERS.
SO HEY, TILL NEXT TIME,
I'M YOUR HOST TIM JACKSON...
FOR OUR DAILY BREAD
MINISTRIES WEBINARS.
I AM JUST REALLY PLEASED
THAT YOU'VE BEEN HERE WITH US.
THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
