>>Jon Snow: Wael, welcome, and good morning,
everybody.
On the 6th of June less than a year ago, a
young man was sitting in an Internet café
in Alexandria. Two policemen burst in, beat
him up, took him outside and killed him.
What happened between then and the moment
that you set up your Facebook page "We are
All Khaled Saeed," the same of the young man
who was killed?
>>Wael Ghonim: First of all, I Googled you.
>>Jon Snow: That's never a good thing to do.
[ Laughter ]
>>Wael Ghonim: Find out something about his
socks.
>>Jon Snow: Listen, I just happen to be a
Google fan in that I believe in color on white.
>>Wael Ghonim: So what happened is basically
transparency. People started to know the story.
We all looked at the photo of before and after.
A lot of us start to get really pissed off
and mad.
>>Jon Snow: This event was talked about immediately.
Online, immediately, with no restrictions.
>>Wael Ghonim: Yes. Someone took the photo
of the guy and sent it to a bunch of people.
>>Jon Snow: Dead?
>>Wael Ghonim: Dead, yes. Sent it to bunch
of people, and because the photo was so bad,
everyone was reacting to it. A lot of people
just published the photo.
When I saw it to start with, I couldn't believe
it, and I thought something is wrong, and
I did not want to react to it. I wanted to
believe that this is not true.
And after, I believe, 24 hours or probably
48 hours, I can't remember, we started to
realize that it's a real story. And, actually,
someone was killed in Alexandria. And when
you look at the guy, he is someone that you
connect with. You can think this could be
your brother or young brother or, you know,
your friend, your colleague at school. And
then when you look at the photo after, it's
so bad that it makes any average person angry.
So I wanted to do something, and I started
a page. I did not think that would be a big
issue, but on the same day, we got about 40,000
people who joined the page with no effort
whatsoever because everyone was searching
for his name, and the page was one of the
top results for search within Facebook and
within Google.
>>Jon Snow: You were a marketing executive
for Google. You were living in Cairo or elsewhere
in the Middle East?
>>Wael Ghonim: At that time I was living in
Dubai.
>>Jon Snow: So you didn't have any sense living
that far away that this was a dangerous thing
to do.
>>Wael Ghonim: What is it? To set up a page?
>>Jon Snow: I think for an Egyptian to set
up a page saying we are all this man, who
the authorities have killed, for Web activity,
effectively, would be a dangerous thing to
do and easily traceable to you.
>>Wael Ghonim: Well, there are a couple of
issues. One is I relied a lot on their lack
of knowledge when it comes to the digital
world, and --
[ Laughter ]
>>Wael Ghonim: Yeah, I had to take the guy
through a process to get him access my Facebook
page.
>>Jon Snow: That's a luxury you had here that
many now will not have because, of course,
these outfits are gearing up against this
kind of activity.
>>Wael Ghonim: Yeah.
And the second is, definitely I was anonymous,
and it was very hard to find out who is behind
this. And that's like a double-edged sword
on the Internet. If you have a cause, that
cause can become the character, just like
we think of corporate, at the end of the day,
as an individual, you can sue the corporate.
I believe that the cause was also a person.
And the cause was whatever you write on the
page and whatever you say.
There is -- I'm not that brave as a normal
-- I would walk in the street, try to avoid
the -- I'm not the guy who would go and fight
in the street. But behind the screen, it's
much easier. You don't see the consequences.
You don't live the consequences.
It's very easy to criticize or to say X, Y,
Z is a very bad person, but you probably would
not do that if you have a face-to-face conversation.
>>Jon Snow: But in January, early in the month
in which the revolution started, you're still
giving a fairly bland speech in which you
say, look, there will be, oh, 100 million
Arabs online by 2015. There's no hint that
there's anything else in play.
>>Wael Ghonim: Well, I tweeted -- I remember
on February 2010, I wrote on my Twitter feed
--
>>Jon Snow: This is before the killing of
Khaled.
>>Wael Ghonim: Yeah, that was like a year
ago. That was over a year ago. That Internet
will change the way -- will change politics
in Egypt in 2011, which is, you know, the
presidential elections would not be the same
as 2005 because of two reasons. One, it's
becoming harder and harder to hide information.
I think politicians in this world, especially
in the so-called civilized world, and I like
the word so-called civilized world, because
they are not going to be able to get out of
their, you know, double standards. People
are after them, and people are actually very
active now in cornering politicians.
>>Jon Snow: But am I looking at a ticking
revolutionary in February of 2010 --
>>Wael Ghonim: No.
>>Jon Snow: -- who has spotted what can be
done?
>>Wael Ghonim: No.
>>Jon Snow: And who, triggered by the death
of Khaled Saeed said to himself "this is our
moment"?
>>Wael Ghonim: No, I don't think so. No, that
wasn't the case. And I would love to claim
that, but that's not the case. No one have
envisioned that we would have a revolution
of that kind of everyone going to the streets.
>>Jon Snow: So take me to the moment when
you feel that something happened in cyberspace
which connected with something on the ground.
>>Wael Ghonim: Well, it was the first silent
stand.
I am a very peaceful person. I held a lot
of -- I felt a lot of responsibility over
the people on the page. I never wanted to
put them in trouble.
And then this guy from Alexandria -- by the
way, I got a lot of credit I don't deserve
because there were a lot of people working
on the page as well, but probably because
I work for Google, that was a catchy term
for the media.
The guy --
>>Jon Snow: But you also knew a heck of a
lot about what you were doing, I mean technologically.
>>Wael Ghonim: Yeah, but there are a lot of
people who knew as well.
So a guy in Alexandria just came up with an
idea, hey, they are banning us from protesting,
and they know how to oppress protests. How
about we go into a flash mob? All of us go
individually, wearing black, facing the sea,
our back to the street and stand up there
for one hour.
And that was the moment I personally experienced
calling for something online and getting people
offline.
And on that day --
>>Jon Snow: Hold up there, then, because somewhere
around this moment you get in touch with Google,
your employer, and what happens? You pick
up the phone and you say, "Eric, I would like
a sabbatical. It's just the wife, you know."
>>Wael Ghonim: No, no. So this incident was
actually in June 2010.
>>Jon Snow: Right.
>>Wael Ghonim: That was right after the death
of Khaled. A lot of people wanted to go to
the streets. Some people were planning protests.
We had some successful protests happening,
but I wanted to send a kind of different message.
I didn't want to confrontational approach
because most of the people who got on the
page were not activists, were actually Egyptians
who got pissed off and they wanted to see
someone brought to justice.
I hated the fact that their encounter will
be in a protest where they will get beaten
up and they end up not doing anything, or
think that this is not their business.
We have a very common statement by the policemen
when they arrest you, "Mind your own business.
Look after your family, look after your job
and don't get involved in that."
>>Jon Snow: I don't want to speed you but
we haven't reached the revolution yet and
you are still in June and I want to be in
January. So I want to push you to January,
and I want you to pick up the phone to, presumably,
Eric himself to say you wanted a sabbatical
and why you wanted a sabbatical.
Did you say, "I would actually quite like
to bring down the Egyptian regime. Do you
mind? Could I have a sabbatical?"
>>Wael Ghonim: No. So what happened is basically
after the Tunisian regime fall down, a lot
of the Egyptians, including myself, I was
against any sort of like confrontations where
a lot of people go to the street. I probably
didn't think it would actually work. But what
we saw in Tunisia is, like, wow. It was just
a matter of hundreds of thousands of people,
persistence, and they kept calling for one
thing. They united. We can do that. We can
copy is paste. We can plug and play.
And this was not even initiated by me. A lot
of people, angry people on the page, we had
about 400,000 people by then saying, you know,
we're not doing anything. This is just a waste
of time. If Bouazizi, the man who died and
committed suicide in Tunisia, was in Cairo,
someone from Khaled Saeed page or the admin
of Khaled Saeed would call for a silent stand,
making fun of the idea that silent stands
are nonsense.
And to be very honest, I just got intimidated
by the comments and I said, okay, let's create
an event. I was actually editing an event.
I called it revolution. I didn't know by that
time how fast it will pick up.
I didn't have that much of a chair on what
happened afterwards other than, you know,
talking to the people on the page, telling
them we have to go to the street.
That was the first revolution, I think in
the history of mankind, that was preannounced,
location was determined.
[ Laughter ]
>>Wael Ghonim: We just disclosed everything.
You know, meet -- Actually, the design was
the Tunisian flag combined with the Egyptian
flag, and we were telling the regime see you
on 25th of January. We did our best to tell
them that something was going to happen.
I was thinking --
>>Jon Snow: But are you saying at that moment
with 400,000 people on the page, or this number
of hits or members, I think, you are saying,
that the authorities were still oblivious
to what you were up to?
>>Wael Ghonim: Yeah, because there were a
lot of experiences in the past, including
the silent stands, where a lot of people just
confirmed that they are going to go down the
street, but they never do.
It's very easy to say -- to RSVP an event
on Facebook and not join. You are not paying
anything for not joining.
So the expectations were like we were not
like Tunisia, and we were making fun of that.
We were saying, yeah, we are much worse than
Tunisia and that's why we should actually
go to the street.
They never thought it would come. They never
thought the police state, which was scaring
everyone, will basically be attacked brutally
by the people, by the numbers of the people.
Because on 25th of January -- before 25th
of January, almost everyone owned the idea
of promoting this. I call it the most brilliant
marketing campaign in the history of Egypt
because everyone was part of that campaign
and the fact that the page was anonymous,
no one owned. No one was an owner. And if
there was a group or a movement or even an
individual calling for this on his name, probably
it would have failed because politics will
arise and who is going to get the credit.
And all of that was not there. And even the
plan was that we will keep this anonymous
and not disclose the identity of the people
who worked behind the page.
>>Jon Snow: I know you don't like the phrase
Arab Spring. Do you like the phrase Facebook
Revolution?
>>Wael Ghonim: No.
>>Jon Snow: So it wasn't?
>>Wael Ghonim: Probably I liked it right after
I went out of jail, but (laughing) -- but
the reality is what happened is Internet helped
spark the revolution. Most of the people in
the street on the 25th came to the streets,
most of them came through the Internet and
mainly Facebook, and of course Google search
engine. I am just kidding.
[ Laughter ]
>>Wael Ghonim: But most of the people afterwards,
it was -- Our role was to create the snowball,
and once the snowball was created, most of
the Egyptians who were hurt by the regime
started to join and broke the psychological
barrier of fear.
What we did on the 25th was basically break
the psychological barrier of fear.
>>Jon Snow: Like the Egyptian authorities,
I had not met you in cyberspace at this point.
I was in the square. And I am wondering what
the balance by then was, by the moment you
got arrested, the 27th, when there was a very
big manifestation in the square. Intoxicating
and extremely dangerous. I mean, there were
thugs from the Mubarak regime and the rest.
What was the balance between the huge mass
in the square and what was going on in cyberspace?
By then, had you done your work or was that
the beginning?
>>Wael Ghonim: That's a hard --
>>Jon Snow: I mean, had you done your work
or was there still now great deal to do online
to try to rationalize this into something
which would actually do the job?
>>Wael Ghonim: Yeah, so if I understand you
are correctly, you are asking will the Internet
play a role in the next phase; right?
>>Jon Snow: Exactly -- in a sense, if it played
the big role in this phase, does it feed through
to the next phase?
>>Wael Ghonim: Yeah, I mean, I love all these
discussions because when people ask me did
the Internet play a role? Yeah, as critical
as the phone. Why no one asked about the phone's
role in the Egyptian revolution, we called
one another and SMS'd one another. It's because
it's very catchy.
I believe the Internet plays a big role in
mobilizing people and in educating them, either
in the wrong way or in the right way. Because
I agree with the gentlemen who were here and
who were saying you can actually use the Internet
for the bad thing, for the wrong thing. And
you can get a lot of people join your cause,
even if it's a wrong cause because it's always
the case that people will believe in causes
even if they are not the right ones.
>>Jon Snow: Before you take us into the next
phase, you are in jail.
>>Wael Ghonim: But I want to comment about
one thing.
>>Jon Snow: Let's just --
>>Wael Ghonim: You are asking so many questions.
>>Jon Snow: I know, but we got 20 minutes
and the previous slot --
>>Wael Ghonim: I hate the term "Arab Spring,"
and I have to say every time I read it on
newspapers, it makes me feel this is a temporary
thing. They are saying that, okay, Arabs woke
up and they are going to sleep back again.
I think it's an Arabic revolution, not an
Arab spring. It's the freedom flu that was
already in the heart and mind of every Arab
who was oppressed by both the regime and the
so-called civilized world oppressing the younger
generations who had never seen democracy in
their countries.
>>Jon Snow: Well, however ignorant the authorities
were about the build-up to the revolution,
they weren't ignorant that you were a key
player because they lifted you.
Or was that chance, bad luck, that they took
you into jail?
>>Wael Ghonim: No. It was just pure luck.
And I think it was perfect. It was perfect
for the revolution. I'm happy that I did not
experience those days.
And I have to admit that when I came out,
on my interview I liked that comment that
one guy made about my interview. It was like
"Wael has just restarted the 25th of January,"
because I missed all the incidents. I missed
what happened at Tahrir. I don't have the
same -- no matter how everyone will describe
to me what happened to them in the Tahrir
Square and the killing and everything, I didn't
feel it. And when I came out of jail, I decided
on going right away to the TV station. Just
said hi to my mom and my family and got on
the road to the TV station because I wanted
to remind myself and everyone and talk to
the silent crowds and tell them why did we
go on the street on the 25th.
And that's why, the next day, a larger number
of people started to join because they started
to look at us as, wow, these guys are calling
basically for the stuff every Egyptian wants,
and it seems like the propaganda, the media
propaganda that was going against them, might
not be true.
So I loved how everything happened. I don't
-- I don't want to be in jail again. I was
not tortured -- I was not brutally tortured.
I was definitely psychologically tortured.
I will never be able to speak to anyone. I
was always handcuffed and, you know, this
is nothing to happen to you, I know, but I
was also blindfolded and I never knew when
I'm going to go out. I was always thinking
I'll be killed sometime.
>>Jon Snow: I've got one final question and
then I do just desperately want to try and
get just a couple of questions from the audience
here.
This next phase, this is a critical phase.
This is when the revolution makes or breaks.
What is the current role of Facebook, of Twitter,
of cyberspace in what is now happening in
Egypt?
>>Wael Ghonim: There are lots of roles that
the Internet can play.
One is, you know, spreading education, like
creating the viruses, the viruses that educate
people about the importance of democracy,
what does it mean and what does it mean to
have a constitution, what are the roles of
the Parliament members and all that kind of
education is needed.
Mobilizing people towards building Egypt is
important.
I also think that the western world, the U.S.
and the west, will have a role to play.
>>Jon Snow: But is the revolution slipping?
>>Wael Ghonim: No. I'm optimistic.
And I see where we're going -- we got rid
of a nightmare and we're still going through
phases of problems, which are expected.
Our regime was repressing us for 30 years.
A lot of people, including the religious people,
were not able to speak up their minds, and
all of a sudden they have all this free environment.
This is great, and I think all these problems
will make us stronger.
I'm very optimistic about the future.
All that we need to do now is to focus on
the right problems.
And I think the world also has a responsibility,
because the Egyptian revolution should not
go wrong. It cannot go wrong. If it goes wrong,
it sends the wrong message to the dictators.
And this is not by dictating how politics
should run in Egypt and what is the definition
of democracy according to the western standards.
It should be by investing in people, investing
in projects, taking more risks, and the idea
of building infrastructure, and let the Egyptian
people figure out their own problems. Let
them do the mistakes. Let them fall and do
the mistakes and learn their own way.
>>Jon Snow: And when you look out and you
look at Bahrain and you look at Syria and
you look, therefore, at failure, do you feel
a sense of -- that you're very lucky or guilty
that they haven't managed to make it where
you have?
>>Wael Ghonim: Why would I feel guilty?
I mean, to me, what we did was basically a
reflection of the street. The street in Egypt
wanted this to happen. Or the majority of
the silent crowd who was not supporting this
did not go against it. They thought, you know,
we are going in a downhill; probably that's
the right fix for it.
Every country has its own -- like there are
different things that play within each country.
What I care about or what I believe in is
that the dictators are going to have tough
times in the future. They're not going to
be able to oppress their people as they used
to do. The media propaganda is failing, because
the mainstream is becoming no longer mainstream.
Even the media brokers -- I call the media
organizations as the brokers between the people
and whomever is talking to them -- their role
is getting less and less important and the
role of individual, user to user, is becoming
bigger.
So eventually dictators will have to give
away their power, and -- or we're going to
live in a World War 3 zone.
>>Jon Snow: Right.
I'm going to chew into five minutes of your
coffee time but this is an intoxicating cup,
so I suggest we just quickly have some reaction
from the floor.
Right at the very back there, please.
There's a microphone coming to you from your
right. Or indeed from your left. Various.
There is one there, yeah. Yeah.
>>> The morning was a bit male-dominated,
so I have two questions.
First of all, managing extremes and online
revolution, is this a male thing?
And the second one is: I'm slightly rhetoric
now. Do we need more female leaders in order
to change the world?
>>Jon Snow: There's your challenge, Wael.
[Applause]
>>Wael Ghonim: Great. I think the Internet
is empowering everyone. At the end of the
day, it's not the time where a few people
will sit down and say, "We need three males
and four females in order for this to work
out."
We have seen cases in the Egyptian revolution
where females played a critical role. In fact,
three days before the revolution the 25th
of January, a girl decided to come on a YouTube
video, and that was an essential moment, a
great moment. And she said, "I'm going down
on 25th."
A lot of people were scared to disclose their
identities and here comes a girl going on
YouTube and saying bravely that she is going
on the street, she doesn't agree to what happens.
And that made a lot of the Egyptians to feel
like, wow, she's so brave, and I'm -- if she's
doing that, I'm going to be better than her.
I'll go to the street.
So I think it's about time to end this male/female
conversation. Everyone has this microphone.
You know, YouTube will not ask you about your
gender before you upload a video. And same
as Facebook will not ask you about your gender
before you create a Facebook fan page.
Women are stepping up. We've seen that in
Egypt. And women were an essential part of
the revolution and they still are. Not just
the activists or, you know, the known-to-be
activists, but even the people who were sitting
in their home protecting their children.
It's about time to forget this whole idea
of --
>>Jon Snow: Don't in any way feel defensive.
There are a lot of men in here.
>>Wael Ghonim: I'm not defensive. No. I'm
not. I'm not.
>>Jon Snow: Yes. One more question.
Maajid, why not.
>>Maajid Nawaz: Wael, it's a pleasure to finally
meet you. Can I congratulate you for bringing
my dream to reality.
When I left prison in Egypt, I prayed for
the day that I saw Hosni Mubarak collapse,
so I congratulate you.
What you guys achieved in Egypt, we're trying
to bring about a similar level of democratic
activism on the ground in Pakistan and I suppose
what I'd like to ask you is: I don't know
if you're aware but the Arab uprisings have
been used in the opposite way in Pakistan,
to say, "Let's overthrow democracy because
if the Arabs can do it, we can do it."
And they called for huge street protests,
led by Islamists, inspired by ironically the
Arab uprisings, to say, "We're going to remove
the nascent democratic regime in Pakistan."
So how does that -- first of all, are you
aware of that? How does that make you feel?
And if there's a message you can say now for
those Pakistani youth listening.
And finally, I'd like to invite you to come
with me to Pakistan so that we can basically
have you speak there directly to the youth
to hopefully inspire the correct direction
that we should be taking the Arab uprisings
in.
>>Wael Ghonim: Well, I think --
>>Jon Snow: The world tour starts on Monday.
[Laughter]
>>Wael Ghonim: Yeah.
First of all, I think that the Egyptian revolution
succeeded because of the massive ground support.
Again, as I said, the silent crowd either
took a stand supporting the revolution or
took a neutral stand and did not intervene
or went against the revolution.
Because we would -- probably would have failed
if there were a large number of people who
truly wanted the old regime to be -- to still
-- to remain in power.
I believe that perception is what is driving
the whole world.
Probably your perception of the extremists
in Pakistan are calling -- or fighting democracy
might not be the shared perception that they
have. Probably they are doing this because
they believe that this is the democracy they
want.
And the reality is no -- I -- you know, you
cannot just force -- go against the people's
will. What you need to do is to do your best
in educating them and play, I would say, a
neutral role in making sure that they know
what they are doing.
And then if the majority of people make a
decision, they should be held accountable
for the decision they make and they should
see that decision reflect on their people.
And in our case in Egypt, a lot of the Egyptians
were taking a decision of not being involved
in politics and not talking about politics,
and that was driven by the "no hope." We -- the
very common word in Egypt, "no hope." You
ask -- and even in Arabic, I'll tell it to
you to remember it. (Speaking in Arabic).
There is no hope. Nothing is going to be done.
But what happened was a shift, using the Internet,
using even the media. Some of the private
channels started to create a high level of
criticism of the wrong things that are happening
and people started to believe in the causes
like, "Okay, there is no hope, but listen,
I have a kid. This kid should not live the
same life and I'm going to go against this
regime, even if I'm going to give away my
life I'm -- you know, I'm happily living so
that no one says that, you know, we're martyrs
and we just want to die anyway. But we're
enjoying our life, but we're willing to die
for our kids to have a much better life than
what we're -- what we are having."
I would say it's quite challenging now to
see what happens in the world and, you know,
wherever a group of people wants to do this.
We even have that now in Cairo where a lot
of people are starting to mobilize for specific
micro-causes. The ability to gather all the
masses who have sort of like a neutral and
common message.
Look at what happened in Tahrir Square. Tahrir
Square, despite all the differences between
the Egyptians and the way the regime was trying
to divide and conquer Egyptians in the past
-- Muslims, Christians, socialists, Islamists,
radical, you know, extremists from different
sides -- there were like all these divide-and-conquer
strategies. But what happened in Tahrir was
that when people went to Tahrir Square, they
started to realize that their -- you know,
whatever they have in common is much more
than what they thought they have in difference
between each other.
And that's why it was a very normal scene
that was not scripted or staged where you
see a Christian hugging, you know, what is
called a salafi, which is a religious Muslim
who probably would not have done this ever
in his life before. He probably did not have
salute a Christian before, but now he's hugging
him but he realized we both are human beings,
we probably have a different faith, we probably
believe that each one of us from the other
side is going to go to hell in the life after,
but who cares. What we need now to do is to
live in this life and accept each other.
>>Jon Snow: Wael, one final sentence.
What did you tell Google you were going to
do on your sabbatical?
>>Wael Ghonim: So you mean during the revolution?
It was not a sabbatical. It was just a --
>>Jon Snow: A holiday?
>>Wael Ghonim: -- it was going to end in seven
days.
[Laughter]
>>Wael Ghonim: I just told them I need to
go back -- I told my manager -- probably he's
not here. I told him that I -- there is an
urgent issue in Egypt.
I thought what would be the lie that worked?
[Laughter]
>>Wael Ghonim: I just said there's a personal
urgent issue in Egypt and I need to go. I
had a good balance, and he said "Okay, go,"
and I took time off, and that's -- that's
what -- as far as Google was involved in the
revolution.
>>Jon Snow: Ladies and gentlemen, Wael Ghonim.
[Applause]
