AG: This is Anthony with MakeWeirdMusic.com
and today I am here in Cologne, Germany with
Frank Pesci.
Frank, thanks so much for joining us.
FP: Thank you for having me.
AG: So, why don’t you tell us who you are,
what you do, and how you ended up doing what
you do here.
An American in Cologne.
FP: Well, my name is Frank Pesci.
I am an American composer based in and working
in Germany.
I am a composer primarily focused at the moment
on opera, but I’ve written nearly 100 works
for the concert stage, including pieces for
chorus, solo works for instrumentalists and
singers, works for large ensembles like orchestras,
concert bands, and things like that.
Plus chamber music and everything in between.
But at the moment I’m focused primarily
on opera.
What I’m doing here in Germany is we’ve
been living here in Germany, my wife and I,
for four years.
My wife is an opera singer and her career
brought us here, first to Karlsruhe, which
is a small town in the southwest (well, it’s
a medium-sized town in the southwest) and
for the last two years here in Cologne, where
she’s a member of the ensemble with Oper
Köln.
So that’s what I’m doing here and I am
working as a freelance professional composer.
AG: I’m gonna go ask the kids to be quiet…
FP: That’s okay…
[Laughter]
AG: Through the magic of editing, we are back.
FP: We are back.
[Laughter]
AG: Okay, so…
FP: Okay, who I am, what I do, why I’m here.
That’s where we wound up.
AG: So tell us about the kind of opera music
you perform here or anywhere else you’ve
done it.
FP: Well, as a performer, I have had really
fabulous experiences here in Germany for the
last four years working as a singer for opera
chorus gigs as well as working as a supernumerary,
which is essentially a human prop or a non-speaking
acting role.
They put me in a place, they need me to move
a box, or I just do nothing, I just take up
space.
So that - in terms of performing - is what
I’ve been doing for the last four years
or so and that’s given me a great chance
to look at opera from the other side, from
outside of the pit and from the stage looking
out.
As far as the opera that I’m writing goes,
I have been working--I work both sides of
the Atlantic.
I’ve been slowly trying to work my way into
the scene particularly in Germany where there
is a lot of new opera happening (but from
an American composer, it makes it a little
bit trickier), and then working contacts in
the US, I have five operas that I’m pushing
now that are either ready to go or at various
stages of development looking for collaborative
partners.
It involves a lot of administrative time.
[Laughter.]
Just keeping things going on both sides of
the Atlantic with people who are looking for
different things, the artistic aesthetic is
very different, and two different languages...
yeah, it takes up almost as much time as writing
the damn pieces.
AG: Speaking of aesthetics, I think when people
hear the word “opera,” they think of a
large woman…
FP: In a magnesium dress.
Right.
AG: Yeah, so can you spell out some of the
modern aesthetics of opera and dispel some
of the myths that people believe or misconceptions
of opera.
FP: I would love to.
Opera is another way to tell a story.
It is the same type of storytelling that you
get from reading a story, from watching a
movie, from seeing a play or going to see
a musical.
It is just another way of getting the point
across of something that is happening in somebody’s
life.
Where it veers into a new territory is that
sometimes what these people on stage are feeling
is bigger than can be expressed solely through
words or acting.
So, then music becomes an extra part of that.
While there are lots of magnesium dress-wearing
women in opera and while opera in general,
in particular in the US, is struggling with
a conception that it is not mainstream, that
it is not for everybody, that it is snobby
or snooty, or however you’d like to call
it, or out of touch--if you first have an
opportunity to take a look and understand
what these people are going through on stage,
it’s very similar to things people go through
in their lives all the time.
It is relevant, it is something that can be
connected to.
The stories that you will get in opera are
life and death and love and hatred and betrayal
and anguish and all the things that you see
just in your normal everyday experience.
What’s happening now, especially in the
United States, is that there is a very strong
push for new works to have immediately-relevant
content.
Meaning: things that are affecting society,
things that are affecting real people’s
lives currently, whether that has to do with
technology or it has to do with modern political
things, or other things that are happening
culturally that are relevant in people’s
lives so that it can tap into what people
are experiencing.
Now, musically we’re also seeing a shift
in that the type of music that is being used
to write opera--the field is wide open.
All kinds of musical styles are being incorporated
into modern operatic contexts, some to good
effect, some not so much.
But the attitude is that, if we’re going
to speak to people using this medium in contemporary
living, then we need to make some adjustments
artistically, musically, thematically in order
to draw those people in, which I’m all for.
In Germany and Europe in general, it’s a
completely different thing because the aesthetic
is very difficult and new music can be very
difficult to hear.
But they’ve cultivated an audience for that
kind of thing.
It’s not exactly where my aesthetic lies
[laughs] so we’re going to see how that
works out.
Opera is an ever-changing animal and it actually
is far more adaptable than I think people
realize it is.
AG: Now you and I first connected talking
about Steve Vai and Frank Zappa.
FP: Yes!
AG: You were kind of a guitar nerd.
FP: I was totally a guitar nerd.
I taught myself how to play off of Metallica
albums.
[Laughs.]
AG: Tell us about the transition--I’m assuming
at that point you were also not an opera composer.
FP: No I was not.
AG: How do you go from guitar heroes to modern
opera?
You didn’t study opera in music school,
right?
FP: No, no I didn’t.
I actually have a jazz degree and I come from
a musical family.
Unwittingly, my father probably--obviously
without knowing it--instilled in me what I
realize and recognize now are my two pillars
of my musical understanding: jazz is one and
opera is another.
He was a jazz player when he was a kid and
then he was the middle-aged man sitting in
his recliner sobbing along with the radio
broadcast from the Met.
So, I got bombarded with all that all the
time.
I think my turn to guitar was to be cool because
that’s everybody’s initial reason to play
the guitar, but also it was the music.
I was listening to rock, I was listening to
heavy metal, and I wanted to take part in
that.
Very musical family - we all sang, we all
played instruments and then guitar became
one of my central instruments for a while.
That went through years of all kinds of stuff:
I was doing rock, I was doing metal, I was
doing lonely singer-songwriter coffee house
gigs, I was playing jazz, I was in a funk
fusion band for a while that toured when I
was in college in the Southeast, but I was
also singing in choirs and I was also studying
classical music.
Then when I got to school to do my jazz degree,
I was studying composition as well - like,
“legit” composition in the classical vein,
in addition to jazz composition.
So it all just kind of morphed into one big
musical experience and all of that continues
to come out in my writing now.
So in terms of how I got from there to opera,
opera was sort of drilled into my DNA and
then into my ears by my dad and then that
was just something I felt like, “If I can
be the best composer that I can be, what would
that turn out to be?”
For me, it was writing opera.
So, that was always the long-term goal.
At some point, I wanted to be the opera composer,
I wanted to be the guy writing new works and
is making those things happen.
How I got there was a little circuitous, but
the totality of my musical experience all
plays into that now, including the jazz and
the funk and the metal and all the guitar
nonsense that I went through.
AG: Yeah, so on your website you have a selection
of pieces you’ve written.
What’s the website?
Frankpesci.com?
FP: FrankPesci.com.
AG: Cool.
FP: There’s a lot of examples of what I’ve
written there.
AG: Yeah, so what struck me was your use of
what sounded more like modern-day jazz.
There’s kind of atonality going on in the
music, but with opera singers on top of it.
So, can you talk about how those influences
outside of opera inform your composition and
is this unique to what you’re doing or is
this what you’re seeing in the opera scene
today?
FP: Well, I am seeing a lot of that in the
American opera scene.
I am seeing a lot of people who have disparate
influences and then utilizing those influences
to put something on the operatic stage.
For me, I have been specifically trying to
blend--I still don’t know what the best
word is to say it--but to synthesize my jazz
conceptions and my operatic sensibility.
Just saying it out loud sounds like there’s
no way in hell that’s going to work, but
not exactly true.
It’s been done before in terms of jazz and
classical music.
There are a couple of operas about jazz subjects
that are floating around at the moment.
One by Terence Blanchard who’s a famous
jazz trumpeter and there’s another one--there’s
an opera going around about Charlie Parker.
So it’s not unheard of, but for me what
it is is to take these two things that are
a big part of my musical understanding and
then to make something that is both and neither.
So, aspects of it, like some of the harmonic
things that you’d heard on my website and
are readily there, some of the freer flowing
harmonic conceptions of jazz are things that
I latch on to.
Also the way that players in a jazz setting
will converse with each other musically and
the dialogue that happens there, which then
turns into a counterpoint - that is something
that I freely draw from when I’m writing
anything.
Also, just from a practical standpoint, most
of my compositions begin as improvisations,
which is directly out of my jazz upbringing.
And then doing so in a way that still remains
appropriate for the type of singers that I’m
singing for.
So, yes, you might have a jazz thing that
is happening, or something that is definitely
jazz influenced, but as you said, having an
opera singer floating on top of it, you still
have to keep in mind that these are people
that were trained to sing a particular way
and then to trying find a way to utilize that
to make something new, instead of “Now I’m
going to jam the opera singer into the jazz
box and we’ll see what comes out on the
other side.”
It’s a balance and it’s a dance that you
have to play, I find, but it’s one that
I’ve been having fun with.
AG: Are singers looking for this new kind
of material and liking it?
Are they pursuing that and do you find audiences
doing the same?
Looking for new opera?
FP: Well, there’s been an explosion of new
opera in the US and there’s a steady stream
of new opera happening in Europe.
I think singers who I know--and I’m also
married to one--will appreciate new music
and will be able to dig into new opera, especially
if it’s written for singers in mind.
This is one of the things that I have the
hardest problem with is that there is an explosion
of new opera from people who have not written
opera before or are just getting into it,
just getting into writing opera.
There’s a new one that’s coming out this
season in Santa Fe written about Steve Jobs.
It’s going to make a big splash and it’s
by Mason Bates, who is a really well known
composer and has been doing fabulous things,
but this is his first opera and it is on a
very large stage.
So there obviously is an appetite for it,
both from people who are programming it, the
singers who are participating in it, and the
public.
So, that is encouraging to me, but also from
being a singer and knowing singers and also
knowing what I’m trying to do aesthetically,
it still has to be singable.
It’s still at the base level, for me, has
to be opera and has to be operatic.
So, I don’t know if that answers the question
particularly, but it’s always something
that’s in the back of my mind, for sure.
I’m always thinking about from the micro
level of, “Is what I’m writing idiomatic
for the type of people who I want to have
sing it?”
And then for the bigger level of, “How is
this going to play?
Will it engage audiences?”
There’s a lot to think about all the time.
AG: What are some of those idiomatic aspects
or techniques that would differentiate something
that you might write for jazz versus something
you would write for an opera singer?
FP: If you’re writing for jazz--if you’re
writing for anything, you need to have a great
idea of what the instruments you’re writing
for can do.
This is one of these discussions that happens
in dorky composer circles about how much you
use your laptop to compose and do you play
back the midi stuff because when the midi
plays it back, the midi can play anything.
It sounds like a clarinet is doing it, mostly,
but can an actual clarinet player do those
kinds of things?
That is so important when dealing with singers.
And also knowing that some singers can’t
do--some sopranos can’t do things that other
sopranos can do.
There are different voice types, even within
particular these broad ranges.
And then there are things that classically
trained singers and performers can’t, or
won’t, or don’t want to do that, for jazz
players, comes normally like improvisation
or some stylistic things that they may not
be comfortable with (in terms of rhythmically
stylistic things).
So, it’s my job then to be able to find
how to write things in such a way so that
people who, with the type of classical training
that I am familiar with, will be able to do
what’s on the page and get across exactly
the feeling, and the rhythmic precision, and
the style of it just by reading what’s off
the page.
It’s just knowing who you’re dealing with
and knowing the type of people that you’re
dealing with and knowing that you have to
be careful sometimes what you ask for because
you might get it!
AG: I interviewed Paul Hanson, who is a bassoonist,
and he talked about the dearth of improvisation
education for non-jazz musicians, particularly
in the classical world.
He plays in chamber orchestras or whatever
with the bassoon.
But once he starts improvising, people are
like, “What are you doing?”
So, as somebody who has a jazz background
and writes songs through improvisation, what
are some of the ways you’ve been able to
bridge the gap between being an improviser
and asking ensembles to get out of the box?
FP: There are ways that you can do it.
Now first of all I do proudly revel in making
instrumentalists uncomfortable and this is
one of the ways I do that.
The other is when I try to make them sing,
which they really don’t want to do.
But sometimes I just feel like I have to.
For me, it is--again, it’s going back to
the way I know that these folks are trained
and you’re exactly right (and he was exactly
right) in the observation also in that improvising
education just doesn’t exist for classical
players.
I don’t want to go super wide with it, but
I feel like there’s a huge lack of improvisatory
cognitive skills that are simply not taught.
For me, verbal improvisation has been something
I’ve done my whole life because I’m one
of six kids and we all talk too much, so you
always have to figure out how you can get
yourself into the conversation better.
From a musical perspective, even if it’s
something like I will tell an instrumentalist,
“These are the given pitches that you can
come up with any rhythm you want, any speed
you want, for this length of time.”
So if things are properly measured out and
doled out, “This is what I need you to do
over this period of time,” that’s much
more palatable and digestible.
The thing with improvisation, even in jazz
improvisation, is that unless you are doing
free improvisation, unless you’re Ornette
Coleman or somebody from that school, there
are rules that you are following.
There are constraints that you are having
to work within.
And then what has to be done is that given
the thing that I want to do or that I want
players or singers to do, how can I write
in such a way as to make sure they are aware
it’s not a free-for-all?
“There are specific things I need you to
do, but I am going to allow you some mobility.”
Or, I just write it so that it sounds like
they’re improvising.
I’ve done that, too.
I’ve been in situations where I was writing
a blues--there’s one piece that I have,
or one of the movements in this multi-movement
work for a six-piece chamber ensemble that’s
a blues.
It is a blues in form and it is a blues the
way the harmonies relate to each other.
And then we’re going to take a chorus and
the flute’s going to play a solo and I had
to write it in such a way that it sounds like
the flautist was improvising and it would
sound like to the audience that the flautist
was improvising, but they were simply playing
exactly what’s on the page.
I know it will come across that way, but that’s
the whole thing.
Combining the jazz and classical idioms is,
“How can you make the one sound like the
other, but not lose its quality, its initial
amount of integrity?”
So, that’s what I do.
AG: For people who visiting this site know
nothing about contemporary opera, who are
some of the heroes that you would say, “Go
check these people out?”
Whether performers like Barbara Hannigan or
composers?
Where would you suggest people start if they’re
looking to explore the genre?
FP: Well you mentioned Barbara Hannigan.
She is somebody who is working constantly
and a large amount of what she does vocally
is contemporary music or recent contemporary
music, within the last 30-50 years.
You could easily find her on YouTube and hear
some crazy shit that she does.
AG: Her stuff with Ligeti’s…
FP: The Dance of the Macabres--yeah, that’s
some pretty amazing stuff.
Now in terms of modern opera, depending upon
where you are in the US, you can find your
local opera company and you can see what they’re
doing and more often than not, they will have
one contemporary piece depending upon their
mission.
If they’re a smaller company and they really
just cater to doing the classics and the rep,
then they’re going to be doing that.
But if you are anywhere in any city and look
for small, plucky, shoestring non-profit opera
companies that do shows in bars, you can pretty
much bet that they’re going to be doing
something contemporary and it’s going to
be fun.
Getting into the bigger thing, there are a
lot of major events that are happening, like
the one that we talked about in Santa Fe with
the Steve Jobs opera.
There are a bunch of new works planned in
the coming season.
It’s more than I can count, but a good resource
would be some place like Opera America, which
is like the national trade association for
professionals who work in opera and they will
have a listing of everything that’s going
on, anywhere.
Just like I say with anybody who hasn’t
listened to any opera or any classical music,
you could do one of two things: you could
find something that’s very popular and test
your ability to go with that--something very
popular opera-wise like La Boheme or The Magic
Flute or something like that--
[A little girl starts crying in the background.]
I don’t know if that’s yours or mine.
AG: That’s my daughter.
FP: Oh, it’s yours!
[Laughs] Or, just take a chance and go to
something new.
You may hate it, but at least you’ll know.
Or if you don’t want to waste any money
on it, there are so many full, complete operas
on YouTube that you could spend days and days
and days and days watching free opera and
just letting it roll.
The gateway to new opera is being open to
opera.
The gateway to opera is just by being open
to new things, if it’s something that you
don’t know.
Don’t worry about what to wear, don’t
worry about the old people with money who
are scowling at you.
Don’t worry about any of that crap because
it doesn’t actually have anything to do
with what happens on stage.
AG: Just like Hyung-ki Joo said.
Don’t be square.
FP: Don’t be square!
Have some fun with it!
And there are pieces out there that you can
have fun with.
And there are new pieces that are being written
that are fun, that are supposed to be fun.
All you have to do is take a little bit of
a chance and look around at what’s going
on in your neighborhood and you’re going
to find something.
AG: Alright, thanks a lot Frank.
I really appreciate your time.
FP: Thank you so much.
I appreciate it.
AG: And people who want to check out your
stuff?
FP: FrankPesci.com.
AG: Is it on any of the streaming services?
FP: Yeah.
I’ve got a small YouTube channel, I’m
all over SoundCloud both under my name and
also under my self-publishing name, which
is Ichthus Music Press.
Yeah, I’m out there.
AG: All right.
Thanks a lot Frank.
FP: I appreciate it.
AG: No problem.
Cool.
