MOST OF ALL TO LET LORI
WORE A MASK IN PUBLIC?
>> WELL, THE PRESIDENT DID WEAR
A MASK WHILE HE WAS LESS THAN
SIX FEET WHERE THAT WAS
IMPORTANT OVER I THINK WHEN HE
WAS TRAVELING LAST WEEK.
I THINK HE -- WITH HIM EVERYDAY
AND EVERY MOMENT, SO I DON’T
KNOW IF HE CAN MAINTAIN SOCIAL
DISTANCE.
I’VE ASKED EVERYBODY
INDEPENDENTLY TO REALLY MAKE
SURE THAT YOU’RE WEARING A MASK
IF YOU CAN’T MAINTAIN THE SIX
FEET.
I’M ASSUMING THAT IN MAJORITY OF
CASES HE’S ABLE TO MAINTAIN THAT
SIX FEET DISTANCE.
>> THAT IS DEBORAH BIRX DOING
THE BEST SHE CAN TRYING TO KEEP
THE PRESIDENT’S EAR ON MATTERS
THAT MATTER MOST TO HER AND THAT
IS OBVIOUSLY SAVING LIVES AND
STOPPING THE SPREAD OF THIS
PANDEMIC FURTHER.
MIKA OBVIOUSLY IT IS A VERY
DIFFICULT POSITION THAT SHE IS
IN.
>> THAT THE PRESIDENT HAS PUT
HER IN.
JOINING US NOW PULITZER PRIZE
WINNING COLUMNIST AND MSNBC
POLITICAL ANALYST EUGENE
ROBINSON.
ALSO WITH US AUTHOR AND NEW YORK
TIMES COLUMNIST DAVID BROOKS.
HIS BOOK "THE SECOND
MOUNTAIN:QUEST FOR A MORAL LIFE"
IS OUT TODAY IN PAPER BACK.
>> DAVID THE TIMING IS CERTAINLY
GOOD FOR AMERICANS WHO ARE
SUFFERING THROUGH THIS PANDEMIC
IN WHICH EVER WAY THEY ARE.
YOU TALK ABOUT THIS SPIRITUAL
RENEWAL WHEN YOU WROTE THIS BOOK
AND IT CAME OUT.
I READ PEGGY NOONAN’S COLUMN SHE
TALKED ABOUT THIS PANDEMIC
THOUGH TRAGIC HAS CHANGED A LOT
OF AMERICANS AND SHE SAID WE
JUST MAY COME OUT ON THE OTHER
SIDE A MORE -- A MORE PLAINER
AND BETTER PEOPLE.
WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS AS THIS
BOOK’S RELEASED THE MIDDLE OF
THIS PANDEMIC AS SO MANY
AMERICANS FIND THEMSELVES IN
THAT VALLEY BETWEEN TWO
MOUNTAINS.
>> YEAH.
THE BOOK IS ABOUT GOING THROUGH
HARD TIMES AND COMING OUT BETTER
ON THE OTHER SIDE.
AND I THINK WHAT YOU DISKOFRCOVE
THE VALLEY YOU GET BROKEN AND
CAN GET BROKEN UP OR BROKEN
OPEN.
THOSE WHO ARE BROKEN GET HARD
AND THEY’RE UNFEELING FRANKLY
LIKE OUR PRESIDENT.
AND THOSE WHO ARE BROKEN OPEN
GET SOFTER AND SEE DEEPER INTO
THEMSELVES.
IN MOMENTS OF SUFFERING, THEY
INTERRUPT YOUR LIFE AND REMIND
YOU YOU’RE NOT WHO YOU THOUGHT
YOU WERE.
CARVE THROUGH THE FLOOR OF THE
BASEMENT OF YOUR SOUL AND REAL
DEPTHS YOU DID NOT KNOW YOU HAD.
YOU FIND DOWN THERE THE ABILITY
TO CARE FOR ONE ANOTHER AND LOSE
THE EGO IDEALS YOU HAD.
A FRIEND OF MINE SAID WHEN HER
FIRST DAUGHTER WAS BORN SHE
REALIZED SHE LOVED HER MORE THAN
EVOLUTION REQUIRED.
I ALWAYS LOVED THAT BECAUSE IT’S
AN IDEA THAT WE HAVE AN ABILITY
TO CARE FOR EACH OTHER THAT’S
JUST DEEPER.
AND JUST LISTENING TO MIKA READ
THAT LETTER TODAY, I SAW HOW
MOVED MIKA WAS AND HOW MOVED I
THINK WE ALL WERE.
IT’S A FIGHT FOR DECENCY.
AND IN HARD TIMES SOMETIMES
PEOPLE GET HARD AND BRUTAL AND
LOSE A SENSE OF HUMANITY.
AND OTHER PEOPLE IT’S MAGNIFIED.
ASIDE FROM THE TOP, AMERICA HAS
BEEN MAGNIFIED IN ITS HUMANITY
FOR EACH OTHER.
WE’RE IN THE STRUGGLE BETWEEN
THE BASIC FORCES OF DECENCY AND
CARE AND HAT DOCTORS RED AND
CALLOUS INDIFFERENCE.
>> YEAH.
>> ABSOLUTELY.
>> GENE ROBINSON, I HAD BROUGHT
UP WITH JOHN HEILEMANN PAUL
McCARTNEY EARLIER AND I REMEMBER
A QUOTE PAUL McCARTNEY SAID,
SOMEBODY ASKED HIM ONCE IN
ROLLING STONE WHY HE WAS SUCH AN
OPTIMIST MM I LOOK AROUND ME
EVERYDAY, YOU KNOW WHAT, WE GOT
HIM OUTNUMBERED, TALKING ABOUT
OPTIMISTS, PEOPLE WHO THINK
POSITIVELY, PEOPLE WHO TRY TO BE
KIND TO OTHER PEOPLE.
I ALWAYS FELT THAT AS WELL AND
YOU LOOK AT THIS CRISIS, I KNOW
I READ THESE NUMBERS ALL THE
TIME FROM POLLS, BUT ONLY 8% OF
AMERICANS SAY THEY DON’T WANT TO
WEAR A MASK AND THEY’RE NOT
GOING TO WEAR A MASK.
THAT MEANS 9 OUT OF 10 DO.
75% WANT TO PROTECT THEIR
CHILDREN.
THEY KNOW IT’S NOT TIME TO SEND
THEM BACK TO SCHOOL YET EVEN
THOUGH DONALD TRUMP WANTS
BUSINESSES TO RESTART AND FOR
WORKERS TO BE ABLE TO GET BACK
TO WORK AND HAVE A PLACE TO
BASICALLY PUT THEIR KIDS FOR
EIGHT HOURS A DAY.
BUT I THINK THE PANDEMIC HAS
SHOWN THAT THE AMERICANS,
MAJORITY OF AMERICANS HAVE DONE
AN INCREDIBLE JOB BENDING THIS
CURVE.
>> YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT’S
TRUE, JOE.
AND I REALLY HOPE DAVID IS
RIGHT.
I HOPE THAT IN THE AGGREGATE WE
ARE BEING BROKEN OPEN RATHER
THAN BROKEN AND THAT WE DO AS
PEGGY WROTE COME OUT OF THIS
BETTER.
YOU KNOW, THERE ARE POWERFUL
FORCES LED BY THE PRESIDENT OF
THE UNITED STATES WHO ARE
MILITATING AGAINST THAT.
AND THAT’S WHAT’S SO
FRUSTRATING.
BECAUSE I THINK THE BASIC
INSTINCTS OF AMERICANS,
CERTAINLY OF THE PEOPLE I KNOW,
ARE TO TRY TO CARE FOR ONE
ANOTHER AND TRY TO DO BETTER OR
TRY TO KEEP EVERYONE HEALTHY AND
AVOID SPREADING THE DISEASE AND
DO THE RIGHT THING.
BUT, THERE’S THIS CRAZY POWERFUL
SORT OF TREND IN THE OTHER
DIRECTION THAT IS BEING
AMPLIFIED BY THE MOST POWERFUL
MAN ON THE PLANET, AND THAT
IS -- THAT’S OUTRAGEOUS AND IT’S
HORRIBLE.
I TOO WAS MOVED BY THE READING
OF THAT LETTER FROM MR.
KLAUSUTIS.
IT WAS JUST WRENCHING TO SEE
WHAT HE’S BEING PUT THROUGH AND
WHO IS PUTTING HIM THROUGH IT IS
JUST -- THAT DEPRESSES ME.
SO I’M GLAD WE HAVE DAVID ON AND
CAN FEEL UPLIFTED AGAIN BECAUSE
THAT IS HORRIFYING.
>> DAVID, YOUR THESIS IN "THE
SECOND MOUNTAIN" WE CLIMB ONE
MOUNTAIN IN THE EARLIER PART OF
OUR LIFE WHICH IS BUILDING A
LIFE AND BUILDING A REPUTATION
AND GETTING AN EDUCATION AND
GETTING A JOB AND BUILDING A
FAMILY AND REACHING ALL THOSE
STATUS SYMBOLS THAT WE THINK WE
NEED TO ACHIEVE AND THEN WE
REALIZE THERE’S ANOTHER MOUNTAIN
TO CLIMB.
BUT TO GET THERE, YOU GO INTO A
VALLEY AND YOU WRITE IN YOUR
BOOK THAT THE VALLEY IS THE
MAKING OF A LOT OF US AND THAT
WE FIND OURSELVES IN THAT VALLEY
BEFORE WE CLIMB THAT SECOND
MOUNTAIN.
SO IF WE’RE IN A VALLEY RIGHT
NOW WITH THIS PANDEMIC AND WE
MOST CERTAINLY ARE, WHAT DO YOU
THINK WE LEARN IN THIS VALLEY SO
SORT OF REMAKES OUR COUNTRY?
WHAT WAYS DOES THAT MANIFEST
ITSELF?
>> YEAH.
WHEN I TALKED TO PEOPLE ABOUT
WHAT WAS THE MAKE OF YOUR LIFE,
NO ONE EVER SAYS, HEY, I HAD A
GREAT VACATION IN HAWAII AND
THAT WAS THE MAKING OF ME.
IT’S ALWAYS A DARK MOMENT A DARK
MOMENT OF STRUGGLING.
IT’S A MOMENT WHEN YOU FIND SOME
DEEPER VALUE, SOME DEEPER THING
YOU REALLY WANT TO DEDICATE YOUR
LIFE THROUGH.
AND WHAT I THINK THIS IS
TEACHING US IS THAT WE CAN TRUST
EACH OTHER.
WE ENTER AS A COUNTRY THAT’S
BEEN BROKEN.
EVERY 60 YEARS THIS COUNTRY GOES
THROUGH A MOMENT OF DEEP CRISIS
WHERE WE REALLY HATE EACH OTHER
1770s ANDREW JACKSON 1830, 1960,
TODAY.
AND TO ME WHAT’S FAS VATING IS
THE INTERSECTION BETWEEN AN
EARTHQUAKE WHICH IS OUR NATIONAL
CRISIS AND THE HURRICANE WHICH
IS THIS PANDEMIC.
THAT MEANS THIS IS A MOMENT OF
DEEP CHANGE, DEEP CHANGE.
AND I THINK WHAT’S GOING TO
HAPPEN IS WE’RE GOING TO LEARN
THAT WE CAN TRUST EACH OTHER.
WE ENTER A PERIOD WHERE AMONG
YOUNG PEOPLE IN PARTICULAR, 65%
SAY PEOPLE ARE NOT TRUSTWORTHY.
73% SAY MOST PEOPLE ARE SELFISH.
AND I THINK WHAT WE’RE LEARNING
IS THAT’S NOT TRUE.
THAT PEOPLE ARE SHOWING UP FOR
EACH OTHER BY WEARING MASKS, BY
STARTING FOOD BANKS, I HAVE A
FRIEND IN SAN JOSE WHO HAS GOT
9,000 KIDS HE’S DOING ONLINE
EDUCATION FOR.
A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE DOING
SOMETHING EXTRA TO MAKE THIS A
BETTER COUNTRY.
AND FROM THE GROUND UP, WE’RE
SHOWING, OH, YEAH, OTHER PEOPLE
ARE GOOD.
OTHER PEOPLE ARE TRUSTWORTHY.
AND OUT OF THAT SOCIAL TRUST
ONCE YOU BUILD IT WHICH HAS BEEN
DECLINING FOR 60 YEARS ONCE YOU
BUILD IT THAT’S THE LUBRICANT
YOU WITH BUILD A LOT OF STUFF
OUT OF.
NEXT WE’LL BUILD POLITICAL
STRUCTURES TO GUARD US AGAINST
THE DAMAGES AND DANGERS THAT
HAPPEN IN THE WORLD WHICH WE
SORT OF IGNORED.
>> AND GENE ROBINSON IN BUILDING
THAT SOCIAL TRUST, LEARNING TO
TRUST EACH OTHER, SEEING THAT WE
CAN, WHAT’S THE IMPACT TO THE --
TO YOUR PIECE’S POINT WHEN YOU
CAN’T TRUST THE PRESIDENT?
>> THE IMPACT I THINK HAS TO BE
THAT THE PRESIDENT BECOMES LESS
RELEVANT AND LESS RELEVANT TO
HOW WE CONDUCT OUR LIVES.
IT IS FELT IN THIS PANDEMIC AS
IF WE HAVEN’T REALLY HAD A
PRESIDENT.
WE HAD KIND OF, YOU KNOW, A
TWITTER TROLL HECKLER IN CHIEF
WHO HAS SAID NOT JUST OUTRAGEOUS
THINGS BUT PHYSICALLY HARMFUL
THINGS, TRYING TO GET PEOPLE TO
TAKE HYDROXYCHLOROQUINE, A DRUG
THAT CAUSES HEART PROBLEMS AND
THIS AND THAT.
AND YOU KNOW, TO SOME EXTENT
I -- IN MY EXPERIENCE I HAVE RUN
INTO PEOPLE WHO ARE JUST KIND OF
TUNING HIM OUT.
AND WHO, YOU KNOW, WHO TURNED
OFF THE DAILY BRIEFINGS BEFORE
THEY -- BEFORE HE ENDED THEM,
WHO DON’T FOLLOW HIS EVERY
UTTERANCE AND WHO NECESSARILY
BECAUSE THEY’RE AT HOME
CONCENTRATE MORE ON FAMILY AND
WHAT THEY’RE DOING IN THEIR
DAILY LIVES TO GET US PAST THIS.
I THINK THAT’S OPTIMISTIC.
BUT IT’S A SAD THING THAT WE
HAVE TO SORT OF TUNE OUT OUR
LEADER IN ORDER TO GET THROUGH
THIS.
>> YEAH.
>> DAVID, WHY DON’T WE CLOSE
WITH YOU AND JUST ASK, WHAT IS
IT AS PEOPLE ARE WATCHING THIS
SHOW, WHAT IS IT THAT YOU WOULD
HOPE THEY WOULD GET OUT OF THIS
BOOK?
>> AT THIS TIME.
>> AT THIS TIME, AND AS THEY
MOVE FORWARD THROUGH A SUMMER
THAT, YOU KNOW, THE PATH IS NOT
ACTUALLY CLEAR AND GOING INTO
THE FALL WHICH MAY ACTUALLY BE
YET ANOTHER MOUNTAIN FOR ALL OF
US TO CLIMB.
>> YEAH.
I WOULD HOPE THEY GET A MORAL
VOCABULARY.
IT WAS ABOUT A TIME IN MY OWN
LIFE THAT WAS TOUGH AND SORT OF
WHO I WENT TO TO GET SOME
SPIRITUAL DEVELOPMENT AND
SPIRITUAL SUCKER.
I SHARE THE WISDOM THAT WAS
GIVEN TO ME, SOMEBODY ONCE SAID
WRITERS ARE BEGGARS WHO SHARE
WITH OTHERS WHERE THEY GOT
BREAD.
AND I GOT SPIRITUAL BREAD IN A
HARD TIME FROM A LOT OF WISE
PEOPLE.
AND I THINK WE’RE GOING THROUGH
A TIME WHERE WE DON’T CONTROL
OUR ECONOMIC DESTINIES RIGHT
NOW.
AND WE DON’T EVEN CONTROL OUR
PHYSICAL DESTINIES, BUT WE
CONTROL OUR RESPONSE, OUR
SPIRITUAL RESPONSES.
SO I WOULD HOPE THAT THE
SPIRITUAL DEVELOPMENT IS WHAT WE
PUT AT THE CENTER OF OUR LIVES
RIGHT NOW IN OUR RELATIONAL
DEVELOPMENT AND DEVELOPMENT WITH
OUR FAMILY AND OUR FRIENDS AND
EVERYTHING -- WHEN EVERYTHING
ELSE IS TAKEN AWAY, THEY CAN’T
TAKE THAT AWAY FROM YOU.
SO THIS IS REALLY A LITTLE GUIDE
TO THAT KIND OF SPIRITUAL AND
RELATIONAL GROWTH.
>> THE BOOK IS "THE SECOND
MOUNTAIN:A QUEST FOR A MORAL
LIFE" OUT TODAY IN PAPER BACK.
DAVID BROOKS, THANK YOU VERY
MUCH.
EUGENE ROBINSON, THANK YOU AS
WELL.
GENE’S NEW COLUMN IN THE
WASHINGTON POST IS ENTITLED
"INDELIBLE IMAGE OF THIS
PANDEMIC/TRUMP WITHOUT A MASK ON
A GOLF COURSE".
>>> UP NEXT, WE’LL TALK TO THE
HEAD OF THE COUNTRY’S LARGEST
FOOD AND RETAIL MEAT PACKING
UNION ABOUT THE LARGE NUMBER OF
INFECTIONS AMONG GROCERY STORE AND MEAT-PACKING WORKERS.
