welcome to the Mindspace podcast I'm
Joe Flanders thanks for tuning in I'm
recording this intro the day after the
midterm elections in the US which is
obviously an important moment for
Americans and many people all over the
world for many of us the results seem to
reflect a troubling level of
polarization in the US but they also
reflect a high level of engagement with
a political process which i think is a
very encouraging sign no matter what
side of the spectrum you're on this
topic of political engagement is the
theme of the podcast today it's an
increasingly important issue for me
personally because I think that
engagement is an important aspect of the
resilience of communities but also the
health and well-being of individuals I
did a deep dive into these issues with
kim manning someone who lives and
breathes these issues every day kim is a
professor at concordia university here
in montreal and the principal of it's a
Simone de Beauvoir Institute after many
years of research and social justice
work Kim recently made the jump into
politics she's currently running to be
the federal Liberal Party's nominee in
the writing of nutriment in Montreal and
as you'll hear she has a lot to say
about how her sense of purpose and her
commitment to her values has been
transformational both for her and for
her community in our conversation we
talked about her personal experience
with a gender nonconforming family
member that inspired her to become an
advocate for the transgender community
we talked about her role in supporting
Bill c16 and confronting its critics
including Jordan Peterson the U of T
professor who became pretty famous for
all of his critiques of the bill we
talked about all the excitement and all
the challenges of her political campaign
and how her family her sense of purpose
her meditate
in practice and even some Zumba classes
help her maintain a modicum of balance
in her crazy life to find out more about
Kim and her work you can visit
kim manning CA that's k IM ma n n ing
dot CA now over the years working as a
psychologist I've really come to
appreciate that mental health is more
than just the absence of disease it also
involves the promotion of the positive
aspects of life including gratitude
compassion purpose and meaning and this
intuition is increasingly supported by
the research in positive psychology if
you're interested in this work I would
highly recommend working with an act
therapist that's acceptance and
commitment therapy or developing a
meditation practice of course so these
services are available at mine space and
at presents and more information is
available at mine space well being calm
and presence meditation dot CA and now
here's my conversation with Kim men
okay Kim welcome to the podcast
Thank You Jo how you doing today I'm
doing great thank you okay good let's
start by you just giving us a little
intro into what you do and how you got
into doing what you do all right well
first of all thank you for having me
it's been really great to reconnect with
you after a few years of heart and so
it's fun to fun to get a chance to talk
in this context so I'm currently the
principal of the Simone de Beauvoir
Institute at Concordia University I've
been teaching at Concordia since 2004
and I was originally hired to teach
Chinese politics so my background is
very much focused on not so much
contemporary Chinese politics but
looking really at the Revolutionary era
1940s 1950s so many of my my sort of
formative years in graduate school and
prior to that were spent in China both
doing research and language study the
last few years however things have taken
a bit of a turn and my own work has my
research and my teaching have shifted
away from Chinese politics per se toward
a greater focus and expression of what
is one form of social action research
here in Canada and that's in part what
led me to become the principal of the
Simone de Beauvoir Institute three years
ago
what is social action research okay so
social action research is an approach to
research where you essentially know what
the problem is you know it's been well
defined clearly understood as a
pre-existing problem often social
problems and the researcher instead of
trying to continue to define the problem
and maybe a new theoretical
understanding of the problem actually
enters research with the intention to
transform so it's a very different
kind of approach from the idea of the
researcher is an objective external
outsider and there are many many
different forms of social action
research and in in our in my own
approach and in the work of the folks
that I've been working with over the
last few years there's been a both a
highly personal dimension to the
research as well as a real commitment to
activating new bodies of knowledge and
new networks and also organizational
kinds of approaches to transformation
and specifically the work that I've been
doing has been very much an ally ship
with the LGBTQ and the transgender
community yes so I definitely I would
love to hear about all that stuff but I
think for the purposes of this
discussion maybe we can get into your
the personal side of that okay and this
transform a transformative experience
you had over the last few years mm-hmm
so I mean one of the neat things for me
about reconnecting with you is that when
I took the MBSR course back in 2011 I
was literally just coming and I just
applied for my first grant related to in
particular to parent advocacy of for on
behalf of transgender children and and
so I kind of knew you in this sort of
very this moment of transition for for
myself and I remember getting the grant
that June and it was also at the same
time my family had moved to trauma as
well for me it was a highly personal
shift that I was taking at that moment a
close family member of mine who was at
that point in time very gender
non-conforming and potentially
transgender and that really galvanized
me when I was looking out at the world
and looking at the the very unwelcoming
state of the world for for people who
non-binary not identifying as male or
female or who or transgender in the
sense that they don't identify with the
gender that they were assigned at Birth
and and so for me that was very
galvanizing and and really prompted me
to in a sense cultivate new allies and
new friendships and and new ways of
trying to approach this problem so
instead of trying to fix this close
family member of mine really approaching
this as this is actually a societal
problem and and and we need to fix
society rather than this particular
individual who I was close to I'm not
sure that this will be necessary but it
might be I'm just wondering if you could
clarify some of those terms you
mentioned non-binary right gender
non-conforming yes transgender yes there
may be another one and I have a feeling
the nuance there is important yes
absolutely
so for individuals who aren't non-binary
again they they don't necessarily
identify as feeling particularly like a
woman or like a man and their preference
is to really not be classified as one or
the other and as you might imagine
that's still very very hard in our world
which you know as you can any almost any
institution still requires an M or an F
on on all kinds of documentation so so
that is a real challenge people who are
transgender the term transgender is a
much larger wider kind of catch-all term
and it can sometimes be used in
reference to non-binary people but it
tends to be used more more frequently in
reference to people who who again who
who don't identify you know when they
were born the doctor said looking at
genitals saying okay well this is a boy
or this is a girl and then as that
person evolved and grew
in fact did not identify with that
gender so that that's important now
being transgender doesn't necessarily
mean you have medical intervention or
surgery or any of this it's it's it's
really based on how you feel you are who
you are inside and and I think that's
really important for for folks to
understand in my work we we also talk
about gender non-conforming or gender
non-conforming expression or behavior
and and that can mean that you know lots
of people can be done during
non-conforming in all kinds of ways it
doesn't mean that they're transgender it
may mean that for example you know a
eighteen year old guy going out to the
club likes to wear skirts and lipstick
and and that's a way of going to the
clubs and and dancing for the night it
doesn't mean they're gay doesn't mean
they're straight doesn't mean they're
trans it's just a form of express
self-expression so they're there they're
there are all kinds of subtleties and
and I think important distinctions in
this world but what we're finding I
think and and this is very interesting
is that in this cultural moment there is
more space I mean we're still living in
a highly transphobic time a time where
you know it's still very very difficult
on multiple levels to be transgender but
things have changed
enormous ly just in the last six seven
years since we first met I mean it's
it's the world has shifted particularly
in large cities from from when I first
started entering this this this fear so
that's exciting it's encouraging and yet
there still remains lots and lots of
work to do and and you can see that you
know for example in the United States
there's been backlash underway with the
Trump administration and
and all kinds of ways in which it's
become more difficult again to be
transgender so you mentioned that the
approach that you're taking yourself and
bringing to your research and presumably
with your colleagues is to address this
issue as a societal problem and not like
a pathology or aberrant behavior by
individual yeah maybe you can just speak
to why that shift is important so yeah
for a long time as you probably well
know given your clinical background
gender non-conforming behavior
transgender individuals were largely
treated as symptomatic of some kind of
mental having mental health issues right
that they needed to be treated for as if
they were in some way mentally
incapacitated that approach in in part
because of deep work by now several
generations of folks in the social
sciences and sociology
in the humanities as well who have been
arguing actually you know again it's
this is not a pathology this is just
this is just a part of human expression
right and we in the West have just been
extremely limited and then our
understanding and our recognition of
human diversity so I think that's that's
the first thing but but the second thing
is because again I'm my my area of work
and my advocacy has been alongside of
and in support of young people who are
transgender and gender non-conforming
and what we have what is emerged I think
very significantly over the last again
six seven eight years is a whole new
body of research and what that research
is telling us is that young people who
have the support of their parents and
their communities their religious
communities you know the the people who
surround them but
importantly the family and the parents
young people who are supported their
incidences of self-harm suicidal
ideation and an actual attempts at
suicide drop dramatically one study
suggested by 93 percent you know like I
mean really really dramatic this is very
significant because in the past clinical
researchers have looked at trans people
and said Oh 43%
you know risk of suicide wow something's
really wrong with you know this whole
population well again it's not it's not
that's not individually that's not
internally generated that's in response
to the stress of living in a transphobic
a deeply transphobic Society so you get
involved in advocating for this relative
of yours people just tell us what
happened there and I think it was
transformative for you personally I'm
curious to hear about how that happened
yeah so in many ways I mean there were a
number of things that that personally
were happening for me over the last few
years as I was supporting this person
who I'm very close with part of it was
that I in my own research independent of
the social action research I was doing I
was also completing a major book that
I've been working on for a long time on
the Chinese Revolution and in fact my
editor at Cornell is waiting for that
final manuscript I'm trying to find so
maybe when I take that leave you know
when I'm finally an official nominee
that's when all I'll be it's not gonna
take long I just need need about a month
to to get that done so but part of it
was finishing that book project and
really having the confidence to speak
speak my truth to really lay claim to an
area that I'd done a lot of work in for
a long time and really have the courage
just to to to really say to really
define and lay out how I saw this
particular period and and what and what
the contributions were that I had to
bring so that was happening at the same
time I was also emerging as an advocate
for this person in my life who I'm close
to and and and these were in some ways
reinforcing developments because I was
needing to take risks to emerge publicly
and you know begin to hold press
conferences go to schools give training
at schools support other people who were
going through similar kinds of
experiences that I was going through why
did you have to do those things oh I
didn't have to but for me it in many
ways it felt like it became there became
a point where there were other people
around me who were who were emerging and
doing public work and someone that I'm
very close to who actually there was one
particular moment who was very far away
when things kind of hit the fan in the
media and this friend of mine was in
South Africa doing research and and it
was at that moment actually that my
husband and I said okay we we're gonna
we're gonna step out now we're gonna
step out and you know into a kind of a
public moment and it was actually my
husband who wrote the that not an op-ed
but just a letter to the editor in The
Globe and Mail kind of responding to
what was happening in that moment yeah
what was in that moment you said when
things hit the fan well it was
essentially it was a columnist with the
Globe and Mail had misgendered the the
child of a friend of mine in the paper
and and was making light of not making
light but was questioning the the
choices that were being made about how
this child was being raised and
firmed and and so Jason my husband panda
just a short but very clear piece about
individuals who who were advocating on
behalf of family members particularly
young family members do not take this
work lightly right and and it involves a
great deal of self-reflection and this
is not a jumping on the bandwagon this
is not because it's cool it's Mazar not
decisions that are taken lightly but
they were being presented in such a way
that these are individuals who are
jumping on some kind of protons activist
bandwagon as if this is you know a
trendy thing to do when it is anything
but sure so you kind of develop this
mission in life or you become more
active in advocating and then how does
that translate into becoming politically
active and getting involved with the
Liberal Party so you know again
different streams happening at the same
time so three years ago I became
principal at the Simone de Beauvoir
Institute and for me when I came in to
that role I you know and I think one of
the reasons I was asked to step into
that role was because of the emerging
advocacy that I was doing and and the
way in which my research had been
shifting when I came into the role at
concordia though for me i really what i
really began to see was that I wanted to
continue working alongside the
transgender community and I have
continued to do so and I'll talk a
little bit about that in a minute but I
also really was recognizing how many of
the issues that I care about are so
deeply intersecting you know that
there's this it's that that it's the the
idea of one of for example rights braced
approach which I have also been very
active in in terms of addressing some of
the needs of the
community in fact there's so many other
issues in that compound how many
different trans people experience the
world and in the case of you know my
family and and the person who you know
I've been striving to protect in many
ways there they have a lot of resources
and support that that many other people
don't so for me it became a kind of a
moving into a larger moving into a kind
of a opening up the advocacy and and
really working my way into thinking
about equity and how to make in my role
at at the Simone de before Institute how
to use that role as a way to help the
university to open up and and become
more affirming from a wider
understanding of equity right so I've
been doing a lot of work around race and
and all kinds of other issues that
intersect with this original advocacy
but but don't necessarily always align
just on that one hue to that one issue
so that was happening and then the other
significant thing for me last spring in
particular was having an opportunity to
work with some key members in the Senate
to try and get some major legislation
approved which was Bill c16 and Bill c16
was written to protect gender identity
and gender expression and the Human
Rights Code so it was expanding but well
the Human Rights Code and the Criminal
Code you know under what can be
protected
in in that legislation and for me it was
it was about a six-week two-month period
where I wrote co-wrote actually three
different opinion editorials and went to
Ottawa I think three times twice
presenting two different Senate
committees on this issue
and that experience for me
not-not-not only presenting and actually
having an opportunity to to lay out some
arguments in front of people who'd been
opposing the legislation and opposing it
for a very long time and and and these
are some of those people were people I'd
actually written about in my academic
work so this was a very very powerful
galvanizing moment to actually sit there
and say this is why this is important
this is why this is how this law can
help to change the way we look at other
people who you say are human beings and
deserve respect and dignity but this is
how it's actually going to impact them
right so having that opportunity to make
that case was very powerful and also
seeing people up close in my case you
know working with a senator originally
from Alberta who who was so deeply
invested in getting this legislation
passed and I you know I was on the phone
as he was preparing his speech and he is
asking questions and wanting to get it
right and so invested in in really
making us powerful of speech as he could
now is hugely moving you know or seeing
jodi wilson Reybold our Minister of
Justice the moment when the legislation
passed into law by a landslide and her
turning around and having tears on her
cheeks right that that is extraordinary
just gave me shivers to actually see
public servants that invested and trying
to create change and and so that's
really the moment when I began to think
about okay how how do how can I
something I've long thought about but
never concretely in a way of could I
actually make a move in this direction
that's when I thought no this is this is
something that this is this is where I
can make a major contribution
at the risk of taking a detour or kind
of introducing a parenthesis here for a
second because this is really the heart
of what I want to talk about yeah the
sense of purpose that moved you into
this new role even though you you know
have a great career and you're active
and maybe even at the peak of your
academic success making a major life
change with a family and all that but I
just wanted to get your thoughts on this
so bill c16 if I'm thinking of the right
legislation became a very hot topic in
the media yeah and if I'm again getting
this right it was particularly a critic
of Bill c16 that made it very public and
that's a Jordan Peterson and so how are
you reading what he was up to and maybe
actually if you could just summarize I
could summarize why don't use some okay
so I'll do my best but definitely
correct me if I'm getting some of the
facts wrong so Jordan Peterson is a
University of Toronto psychology
professor and full disclosure a former
mentor of mine and a somewhat middling
academic for most of his career I
believe he's in his 50s now but very
bright and had a very sort of up and
down no I'm gonna say that for reasons
that aren't totally clear he heard about
this legislation and decided he it was
very important for him to fight it and
he fought it on the grounds basically of
a free speech position and he claimed
that the legislation was coercive in
compelling people to use the pronouns of
transgender individuals choice and so he
felt that was unfair
and he has a very elaborate and abstract
argument that it is a sort of an outcome
of a extreme left ideology that is
making its way into law and he felt that
was really inappropriate so I don't know
if I have some of their summarize that
correctly but I'm very curious to hear
your point of view on that okay sure
well yeah so first of all I've never met
Jordan Peterson and I actually have not
read for example his most recent book or
his academic pieces so all I've seen our
snippets here and there in the context
of short media sound bites and some of
what he did in the Senate for example
because he presented a couple of weeks
after me in the Senate and I will also
say you know that he's he's somebody
with a strong Jungian background right
and and I mean that the Carl Jung's work
actually was hugely formative in my own
psychology if you will and so it's it's
it's somewhat not humorous but I bet but
I see that there's something about me
where I I think oh that's the you know
that's interesting that that he could
end up there and I could end up here
right and you know thinking about
meaning and purpose and you know all all
of that so you know I think and I think
the other thing too that's interesting
here and I'll you know a couple of other
parallels so some some of the things
I've read about him are that you know
he's been a big he's done a lot of
reading about Soviet propaganda and
ideology and he's Chinese as well and so
he's extremely wary of these kind of
leftist movements and the overriding of
the individual liberty I think and
that's and that's a core concern of his
and quite frankly it's a concern I share
and and it's not one that I take lightly
I
there and it's not one that that I want
to easily dismiss right I mean I'm a
student of
maoism I've spent years studying maoism
and and I've and not just you know
second hand I've interviewed people I've
read archival documents I've been
steeped in that world and in the the
propaganda of that world and and and
literally how people saw themselves and
others in the context of that highly
ideological period in time and it's not
something that I think we should be
striving to reproduce in in any way
shape or form in terms of the way it
does close down our capacity to engage
with one another to have dissent to be
creative even as there was a certain
passionate expression and and there was
an intention to create a better society
certainly and I don't want to undermine
that aspiration either because that
certainly was there but how that all
came into being was deeply flawed in
part because of in part because of the
increasing rigidity and fear-based
nature of the campaign's that were that
were underway this is something that you
know and I've talked about this before
actually in the context of another
interview that I did a few months ago
you know people would be surprised and
maybe Jordan Peterson would be surprised
to know that that among my colleagues
and women's studies we talk a lot about
how do you maintain a classroom and how
do you create and maintain a classroom
in which people feel like they feel
comfortable they feel like they can
engage but where the idea of creating
safe spaces doesn't mean shutting down
the possibility for talking about
difficult topics right and I think
that's one of Jordan Peterson's fears is
that
that in effect that you're saying okay
well this is a no-go zone and that's a
no-go zone and trigger warnings and you
know how is it there any way that you
can have an engaged intellectual life in
that context and so you know we're this
is a constant and we do we do pedagogy
retreats every year at the Institute
this this is a this is something you you
you return to and return to and return
to again it's one of the things I love
about the work at the Institute however
you know we we have both you know
whether you think about in the context
context of parliamentary rules for
example how Civic discussion takes place
in the chamber how you refer to people
you know actually in that forum there
are expectations about how you address
one another and in our daily life and
guided by law we have expectations about
how we're going to interact with one
another so a professor cannot for
example call a student honey-pie because
you know they think it's a cute name
right there there there are actual
guidelines about how we can refer to one
another and and and and there are forms
of address that if repeated over time
and with malicious attempt you know
intent yes can be seen as a form of
harassment for example but that's a very
rare situation it's very rare and and
and we're not you know that's that's
we're not what we're talking about here
what we're talking about is providing
people with a sense of basic dignity and
respect which again is what we have
codified for ourselves and each other in
all kinds of forms and changes over time
and and that's that's the part of the
society we live in so to me this is
actually a very reason
and not just reasonable it's part of how
we create a society in which we grant
each other
dignity in the context of our
interactions so I'm feeling the passion
that we talked about before and I I
really appreciate it and I'd like to dip
into it a little more and thanks for
going to the Jordan Peterson thing it's
very controversial I know a lot of
people wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot
pole
because it's yeah so there was that
turning point after your political
engagement and seeing how many people in
the political arena care mm-hmm so what
did you do well I actually well again
and this was the other thing that was
was extraordinary because I approached
somebody in the Senate who who had been
I'd been working closely with and and he
had said you know I'd really love to see
you step into politics and when one
shape or another and I said well you
know I've I've actually been a little
bit more to the left
yeah and he was like well you know oh
I'll introduce you to some people I know
in the NDP I don't care which party I
just want you to get in there and and
get involved that for me was also mind
blowing because I didn't expect that to
hear to hear that from you know from
somebody who'd been committed to one
particular party for a long time so but
I did take time I did think about okay
we're we're we're do my values aligned
and where do my values you know which
party is it that my values align with at
this particular moment in time and and
for me both in terms of seeing the the
MPs that I was getting to know the
members of parliament that I was getting
to know in the Liberal Party and the
kind of work that they've been doing
whether on LGBTQ issues whether on
housing I mean a whole on the
environment on a whole array of pieces I
I recognized that that this is a place
these are people with whom I can work
and with whom I can work productively
and who I can help to realize a more
progressive Canada and that's my goal
that's my goal and so ultimately I said
okay I'm gonna I'm gonna do this I'm
gonna take out a membership in this
party and here I go plug you know like
I'm gonna dive in right I'm gonna I'm
gonna actually take take this leap and
and see see see you it you know but I
you know again but let me backtrack a
little bit more to because it wasn't
just the people it so that was a big
part of it the policies that are
underway but I have to say the other
piece for why now is is that it's my
writing that is opened up it's where I
live it's where my family and I moved to
when we needed a good place a place that
was going to be accepting and and create
room for us in our own diversity and and
so for me you know despite the fact that
you know I'm an Anglophone i'm i i'm
originally from british columbia you
know my second language is Mandarin you
know and and and well I've been working
very hard on my French for a long time
you know it's my third language you know
despite all of these things I said okay
you know what
now now now is the moment this is my
riding these are my people
this is this is this is this is the
moment so you're running for the to
represent the Liberal Party in the
writing of bootrom oh yeah in the
special election coming up my election
there'll be a by-election and probably
in two or three months okay yep and so
what are you doing to prepare and
campaign for that race yeah so well
first of all I'm I mean really I'm
preparing right now for
the investiture for the nomination to
become the Liberal Party's nominee here
in the writing so that's that's the
first step and that is well that
actually and I've just passed the
six-month mark really from when I
publish
declared that this was something I was
going to do so that was late February
it's been a it's been uh it's hard to
know where to begin because it's been
such a huge project and nothing that I
could have anticipated when I started I
knew what I wanted to do I knew that I
wanted to have an engaged participatory
open process one that aligns with my
values that that places equity and
inclusion at the heart of the work but I
didn't know how do you how do you do
that how do you do that when you've
never been a a candidate before I have
never been involved in a campaign before
so even though I've studied political
science and in particular gender and
politics you know most of my adult life
I hadn't the experience coming in either
the party experience or the actual
campaign experience so we basically
started from scratch right and and have
been building a team that that in a
sense has usually included between like
a core team of between 10 and 15 people
depending on you know what various
commitments those people have at any
given moment in time we have been
onboarding then all kinds of other
people in in all kinds of different ways
whether people have been for a you know
a lot of the early months we were
hosting meet and greets you know one of
which you attended right where it where
it's an opportunity for me to to say
this is who I am and this is what I'm
trying to do and you know could I have
your support
would you consider becoming a member of
the Liberal Party and supporting my
candidacy because in a sense I've I've
had two
my own liberal party in the writing
right I'm I'm I'm new to the party and
and that that yeah so it has meant that
I've literally had to start from scratch
so early days with the meet and greets
but now a lot of my work is in the the
neighborhood so first of all I mean the
writing itself is extremely diverse 25%
is the neighborhood of Kumo right 25% is
the neighborhood of Mile End and a
little bit of sort of northern plateau
and then 50% of the writing is coding
edge and coating edge being of an
extremely diverse set of neighborhoods
and it's in its own right half of the
writing made up of immigrants than half
of those immigrants are new arrivals so
a very from all over the world and and
so for me this over the course of the
summer it's been finding ways through
connecting with community organizations
going to events but also trying to find
ways of actually developing
relationships with people of getting to
know people in a at a deeper level to
understand what their lives are like
and what what kinds of you know both
both needs that they have what they're
looking for in terms of federal
representation but also what they bring
to the table you know and that's where
the the engagement for me has become so
exciting because there are a number of
people who have gotten involved in the
campaign including from codeine as
you've never been involved in in
political work before and and so that to
me is extremely gratifying use this
phrase before or like a few moments ago
you were looking for a party that
aligned with your values I kind of have
the impression from watching you go that
alignment is a huge thing for you and I
feel like it's even I'm correct me if
I'm getting this wrong
even in the sort of a signature for your
campaign it's like leadership with heart
or something yes
like you're you're pursuing these ideas
but they're not abstractions for you
this is like the core of who you are
yeah and they're very relationship based
right right so that that's a key piece
for me is because for me if for me good
leadership is is yes it's about
listening it's about understanding but
it's it's also about creating contexts
in which people themselves can become
activators and can create new
possibilities for themselves right I
feel like I am I am succeeding when the
people around me are fulfilled and
engaged and self actualized if you will
and that's tough it's tough in
neighborhoods like Coke Dinesh right
when you're when you're you know dealing
with potentially difficult housing
situations when you're you've been
trained for one form of work and you're
not able to get job maybe drop a job
because of maybe language issues where
you've got family who are in another
part of the world you know that's that's
a hard call right but if there are ways
in which you can be bridging some of
these pieces that to me if people can
really come into their own and feel like
yes I can I can make a good life here
Wow
right so this of course is an area I'm
very interested in I mean I do feel like
I can I'd love to talk politics with you
and leadership even for hours but I
think I know more about well-being and
I'm really curious about how that
alignment yeah that you have achieved so
well what that does to your state of
mind you were chatting before we started
recording and you know you had a hectic
day and probably a hectic week in a
hectic summer and like you're basically
always on the go it must be incredibly
draining I must be incredibly stressful
but you're smiling
you're excited it's just unbelievable so
I should also say that your meditator
and so there's there's going to be
probably a pretty high level of
awareness of how your energies and your
moods are going to be evolving so maybe
just speak to that a little bit yeah so
you know that one of the things for me
well first of all so yes I am I'm a
meditator I'm also somebody who has
developed a much deeper yoga practice
over the last three years particularly
since I've begun my work as principal of
the Simone de Beauvoir Institute that
embodied practice has been really really
key for me given the high level of
sociality that is involved in my work
being able to meditate and practice
physically in the context of yoga has
been really really key there was a
moment 2016 when I became very involved
in a campaign on behalf of Homa hood far
who was imprisoned in Iran at that
moment and I became engaged in some of
the work liaison you know as liaison
iing between the University and and what
some of the family were doing and trying
to create some real momentum behind a
public push at that moment in time was a
period of about a month where it was
very very engaged it was an emergency
right and and basically you know we'd
been told that Homa had been taken to
the hospital that she'd collapsed we did
not know if she was gonna survive her
ordeal but I remember going to the yoga
studio you know still at that point in
time two or three times a week and that
the yoga itself allowed me to replenish
and and maintain my energy during during
what was in effect a crisis right like
that was a crisis it it it was nothing
was more important in that moment than
getting home a home right now you know
the the the alignment it's easily thrown
there's no question right and I think
one of the really interesting things for
me
so yes meditator yes yoga also I spent
many years 25 years I kept a daily
journal right I've got boxes o journals
so might for me you know the reflection
and thinking through and processing and
the Jungian connection I've got dream
journals has always been really critical
the the thing with the campaign is that
you you have these soaring highs and
these crashing lows I mean you can
literally go from one hour feeling like
oh we're making great progress I yeah we
mate we may have a chance at this too
we're never gonna we're never gonna do
this you know it's we're never gonna
make it
so for me a key part of maintaining my
capacity to continue at the pace that I
am is is finding ways to be able to ride
these these peaks and valleys of
campaign life right and and and again
you you can be feeling like oh you know
again very excited and things are
looking really good and then something
happens and you know oh you know we're
never gonna get there kind of feeling
and so and that and that's something I
think that's a part of anyone's life
it's just more exaggerated in the
context of a campaign where the the odds
are so not the odds but the the pressure
is so high right and you're working with
a group of people who are all invested
on a volunteer basis right and you're
carrying them as well but they carry you
too right and that's and that's one of
the beautiful things about doing this
work is at least with the people that
that I have been working with from the
beginning is this real commitment I
think to each other and to caring for
one another and there have been moments
where some people have had to step back
because of other things that
emerged or family or work or whatever
education you need to go on and and and
that in making space for all of that and
and making space for me when I also need
to recover to I think is really cute so
alignment I think from that perspective
is is keeping that sense of perspective
the other piece though that I would say
there are two other pieces that are
really important one is that alignment
for me means alignment with that the
work I'm doing now I see as a as a deep
commitment to the realization of
strengthening community and I don't mean
this in some kind of like throwaway line
I mean that that's the basis of my work
at Concordia right now and my hope is
that regardless of the outcome of the
nomination or the by-election that the
work I'm doing now will strengthen my
university work for example if I
continue on without in that context
instead of in Parliament but if I have
the the privilege of going into
Parliament then to me that that
community building the work we've been
doing there's already a basis and a
really significant basis for Verve for
deepening that work the third thing I
would say is that the for me a key piece
so over the course of the summer I have
connected with folks some folks in the
Filipino community primarily who
participate in Samba classes
church basements and community centers I
became aware I was at an event at one
point became aware of some music coming
from down in the basement I said what's
going on Oh somebody said somebody don't
some but before maybe I can I can I come
and from that first class I began to
connect with people these these these
Zumba classes are small communities in
their own right
they're extremely they're they're
they're communities that are extremely
supportive of one another they celebrate
birthdays they mark the deaths of
relatives people visiting from outside
lots of food often post that you know so
here you sweat your butt off for eat all
this incredible Filipino food this but
but they're very they're they're they're
truly strong community ties that are
forged in the context of that but it's
also intense exercise right and for me
dance has been another my whole life you
know going dancing has always been a way
to connect with joy and sometimes
euphoria right and for me these Samba
classes that sense of community the
music it's it's been a breakthrough for
me personally and it's it's it's changed
me in terms of in the sense of taking
risks of yes I'm gonna screw up these
dance steps or look silly
at when somebody pulls me onto the stage
and I'm you know up there shaking my
butt you know but it's a way for me to
be vulnerable and and I think that's
really key in this work of alignment and
and being open to people and and really
being able to hear who they are and
where they're coming from
and and and how we can connect on the
basis of that so one thing I'm seeing a
lot in my practice and working a lot
with in my practice is of course it's
very important to get cardiovascular
exercise and you know maintain good
relationships with you know loved ones
and you know there's lots of
problem-solving to do at times around
that and meditation has become something
that people do on a regular basis to
stay sort of mentally fit but what what
has occurred to me in doing the work
that I do is that in some ways that's
not enough
to solve problems it's not enough to so
taking meditation example it's not
enough to undo the bad habits that we
have that we've developed or the met the
it's not enough to undo the mental bad
habits that we've developed it's not
enough to take care of the different
pathologies we have in our relationships
or in our own minds or whatever that
there's something missing from true
well-being and that is having this
deeper sense of purpose yeah and I love
this quote from Nietzsche who said he
who has a why to live can bear almost
any how yeah and so that's one of the
things that really intrigues me about
what you're doing is you're very strong
why and I with respect to your comment
about riding these waves these ups and
downs and the relationships you have
with people you guys are all working
towards something very deeply important
to you so I'm just wondering how that
what your take is on that and how the
sense of purpose is affecting your life
and your relationships and your family
life and your and your energy levels and
all that kind of stuff thank you thank
you for asking that question
because as I have deepened into this
work the the the question of purpose has
actually clarified for me and I think
for me actually my whole life I've
always seen presenting myself for
politics as my ultimate purpose as as
for me where I can be of most service
and I've tried other ways to be of
service teaching and doing research and
my parenting and there's all kind of you
know being a good member of the
community on all of these other things
have great meaning for me but for me
ultimately what I've realized is that
for me myself because of my personality
because of Who I am I feel like I can be
of greatest service
if if I am in a role where I can be
working with people in in in a capacity
as a member of parliament or a
legislature to be actually doing that
work to me that's my that's my my
highest purpose I think at least at this
moment in time and as I said you know it
may not it may not play out but but even
in in the striving for that there's deep
meaning and and truly for me you know
whether it's the Zumba classes or
whether it's being in a mosque for the
first time as I was in June I have had
moments of it's it's almost radical
vulnerability and and that to me there's
I that sense of aliveness and it's it's
just a tremendous gift for me and I also
see how people respond so the more the
more I've committed to this path the
more the people around me and the people
who are coming to me I'm meeting an
extraordinary people in all kinds of
communities so it's like the more alive
I become the more I'm interacting and
finding and you know opening up to these
other people who are extraordinary and
doing extraordinary things with their
lives and their higher purpose is
different from mine and Wow look at what
you're doing and isn't this
extraordinary and you know and even in
my closest relationships yes this is
hard right you know my kids don't get to
see me nearly as often as they did
before I started this journey right six
months ago and there's no question it's
hard it's hard on my husband too right
it's hard on the kids and I could talk
more about how we manage that whole
piece because that's that's
whole other and I think it's more of a
political question actually of how you
you you do something like this and it's
again reflective of the kinds of systems
I want to change around around who can
actually go into politics who can who
can make these sort of these these
attempts at radical vulnerability if you
will but I will say that the more I've
invested in this work and and and
committed to this work and the happier
I've become the more alive my
relationship is with my partner you know
and with the other people around me I
and and I know in some ways it's that
doesn't make sense
since in some ways but it also totally
makes sense and and it just affirms for
me that you know the guy I married 20
years ago you know is is really the you
know my right partner in that you know
if the more alive I become and the more
alive he becomes that that that there's
that connection and and mutual support
even three children in and several
houses and you know all that moves and
all the you know the various drilled
eyes of life right so that's really
extraordinary - yeah that you talk about
feeling alive and all this work giving
back in so many ways it you also use
word vulnerable quite a bit and I sort
of get the impression that we all want
that alive feeling but it does require
commitment it does require taking the
risk and it does require moving out of
your comfort zone and making yourself
vulnerable and that's not always easy
for people but when you have that deeper
purpose it gives you the y-yeah to bare
the how so
when one of the people who for me I mean
I as I began my journey you know again
seven years ago and then three or four
years ago when I you know the my book
and all of these pieces becoming an
advocate coming into the public arena it
was only after that that I actually
started to read Brenna Browns work and
for me
Brandee Browns work really really for me
was this is what I owe this is what I've
been doing that this is what I've been
moving into right and so it's but her
work is also inspiring because it's it
reminds me of when times are hard and
you're you're questioning yourself and
you know feeling badly because things
are hard for whatever reason it's it's
it for me it's a very inspiring model
and a way to remember that you know
vulnerability that that vulnerability is
actually or that sweet tenderness as
somebody said to me recently is is
really the core of who we are and if we
can find ways not to protect it and
shield it off from from the people
around us but nurture it in such a way
and let it let it open let it let the
the light and the air in right that
there's that's that's that's where we
grow right that's that's really where we
grow well this has been a really
interesting conversation we have I think
both of us some more mundane concerns to
get to do it then do children and
partners needing us and that sort of
thing so one of the wrap-up but maybe
you can just tell us how we might learn
about the work that you're doing and
that could be the academic work or
information about the campaign sure how
do we find you so different pockets of
work but at Concordia I'm still there
and until until I actually achieve
official nominee status and continuing
to do work around transforming Concordia
into Canada's first feminist
universities so any any listeners out
there interested in that work get in
touch and of course
the campaign work and and if anybody
who's listening would like to find out
more my website is kim manning CA send
us an e-mail let us know how you'd like
to get involved we'd love you know this
is this is where we're growing very very
quickly now and we need all the support
we can get so thank you and thank you
Joe for having me on and getting the
opportunity to have this conversation
like I said I don't I don't get a lot of
chance for reflection right now so this
is a way for me to also think about how
this is all coming together and and why
it's so important at this moment in my
life the pleasure is all mine so thanks
a lot and good luck with all these
projects and I'll talk to you soon okay
thank you okay
