Namaskaar... Clemen...
Clemen, yes...
I have two questions...
one is about...
how to get more established in this... silent nothingness
...and second is about the unity consciousness.
What I experience... is...
...I can be this self-less, present, vibrant...
or get lost in the mind.
And Mooji said yesterday, something that...
liberated me to a bigger extent...
...he said that the mind is not real
and for the first time I realized
since the mind is not real, then the bondage is not real
...and the attachment is not real.
And... because of that I'm free
so... but... this realization now
is for the first time, I can really...
...be free.
Though, there are some impurities
in my thinking, or...
...this long term anxiety still...
...lurking, maybe. So my question...
...first question, is
how to get really...
deeper with that silence... self-less...
Clemen, I'll have to tell you that
I'm going to disappoint you
..very much...
If you're ready to be disappointed
then I can answer the question
I'm ready to be disappointed.
Ok.
Maybe it's one of those impurities
which you'll have to deal with then
So, the idea that
...'I am the silent emptiness'...
identifying with that silent emptiness
is a conceptual exercise, firstly.
So, you're...
...you're thinking that you're identifying
with the silent emptiness
Now, that is already assuming that the...
that the Presence...
...the living Presence, is emptiness.
So...
Tell me if you get bored...
because I'm... I haven't even begun yet... that's why...
Just wanting maybe...
...when I'm in that state, there is no 'I'...
...there is no 'I'...
...so maybe I've mis-expressed myself.
There is no 'I'
because there is identification with that Presence
...that's why there is no 'I'...
It is a dissolution of identity that happens.
The thing is that it is a
conceptual dissolution of identity
because you still have the body to deal with, you know?
And the moment the body's shaken enough
the 'I' starts to appear...
...for example, if you have sudden pain
suddenly the 'I' is very much there
...and...
which is why I say, that any practice
that takes you into a dissolution of identity
and an identification with this living Presence
is a practice, that is in essence saying
...'you are the Soul... you are the Presence'...
It's an experience that you reach through a practice...
What I'm saying is that, that very practice
that is taking you to that experience is...
...conceptual in nature
and the experience therefore is conceptual
which means that, at one point
when This starts to
make its presence felt
you fall from that experience.
And the result is...
just, you know...
the elation that you have
when you have that feeling of freedom
is replaced by the opposite
which is a feeling of imprisonment by the body.
It's just this up and down yo-yo that goes on
pretty much through a lifetime.
What is clearly said over here
...and that's why I said, I may disappoint you...
is that, any experience that...
takes you into an identification with Soul
...with...
where you actually lose the identity
...but you lose it through identification with Soul
and not through surrender...
because you're not surrendering to something
you are just there, and you feel
that all of this that is happening is...
that all of this that is happening is...
...is an illusion, actually...
...so you start to detach, and you...
...you arrive at a freedom
because you've detached
from all of these things happening around you
...that is your experience of freedom.
But, the fact of the matter is
it's only a conceptual experience
because the body itself, is not free of those things
and a lot of the time, the pain that is created
is created by the body itself
by you.
Now, in this practice here
it's diametrically opposite... it's...
...you're very much
taking on the responsibility
for everything happening around.
What you say is ...'I Clemen... I'm This'...
...and...
...'I am the servant, or the instrument of the Soul'...
...'of the Antaraatman'...
...'of the individualized Soul'...
...'I am not the Soul'...
The Soul is not the observer here...
...'I am not the observer'...
...'I'm only, simply in surrender'...
...'I'm only, simply in surrender'...
It doesn't end there...
there is also very clearly... it's very down to earth
it's very present
and it's taking on the responsibility of
the karmas of the system
...the actions that you take...
...getting up and sitting there...
...getting up and sitting down...
...speaking, not speaking...
every single action
is actually taken on as a responsibility of Clemen's
and he decides if that action of his arises
from the Truth... from the Truth, the Soul
the individualized Aatman...
the individualized Aatman...
or, it arises from ego
and based on that discernment
he acts, and acts, and acts
and as he does, and does, and does
the joy grows, when he does from the Truth
and the suffering grows, when he does from the ego.
So, what happens then is that
because of this process of discernment
all actions arising from this body...
are actions that you take responsibility for
so, you also take responsibility for the joy
or the suffering
and if that's the case
by detaching from that suffering
you would not transform it
but by understanding that it
arises out of the ego
you shift the gaze to the Soul, and act from That..
What happens then, is that
there is an expansion of consciousness
because there is surrender in the system.
Surrender means bending down.
...'You are the master, you are the Soul'...
...'I am your servant'...
...'This is an instrument'...
So, you experience sweet surrender
because there is a 'you', there is an 'I'
that is experiencing that surrender.
And in the process of this surrendering...
...bending down to the impulse of the Truth...
the consciousness starts to expand
but it expands within the system.
Which means that
it's not a Clemen, who...
...is suddenly no more a Clemen
Clemen... Clemen is your name right?
Clemen...
But it is a Clemen, who is a Clemen
who is in surrender to That.
He is not That, but he is in surrender to That.
So what happens then - the consciousness starts to expand
within the system.
It's not a dissolution of identity
because what you are experiencing now
is a dissolution of identity - there is no 'I'.
If there is a dissolution of identity
it means there is a detachment from the system.
It has to be, because the system is identity.
So, then what happens is
the consciousness starts to expand
within the system
so all the layers... the very cellular consciousness...
...the emotional part of the being...
...the conceptual... the transformative...
...all these different layers of consciousness
start to actually become more conscious of themselves
...more aware... more aware... so the...
...the materiality assumes more contour...
...the emotions become deeper, wider
and you become more the master of the emotions
rather than the victim.
The thoughts become clearer, more precise...
The experience of creativity
is just multiplied a thousand times over
because it's expanding consciousness in there.
The ability to be in unity consciousness moves...
...the whole system becomes able to do that at choice
...at will.
So, it is an opposite process
it's a process of This-ness… being here… This.
The thing is that
that experience of freedom, which you have
when you suddenly feel ...'I am not all of this'...
you will not have
because there will be no need to experience freedom
...there's nothing to be free from...
This is This.
So this, in a nutshell, is what I wanted to describe
which, was why I said you may be disappointed
with my answer...
...but you can go ahead
if you have something to...
I'm thankful for the answer.
I would just like to clarify this state
that you say is like a projection
or dissolution of the Self
so... what is it, if I just...
...there is no 'I'... there is just some...
...nothingness...
So, what that means is, in that moment
you have undertaken a practice
which has put the system in an alarm state
which has put the system in an alarm state
it's a conceptual querying that has happened
...that has led to that state...
...'Who am I?'... for example, or...
...'I am not this, I am not that, I am not this'...
Those are conceptual querying practices.
What happens is that
at one point, the thinking is so overloaded
with that practice
that the consciousness leaves the system
and the first thing you experience is that
...'all this is not me'...
This is... it's a conceptual illusion
rather, it's actually a conceptual...
welcoming to a larger and larger ego-state
because...
...when there is no...
...when the 'I' falls away
without surrender
the system is gearing itself
for a fall back into the the 'I'-ness, or This-ness
and that's when the depressions come, the...
problems come which you see with a lot of people
who are practicing these particular practices
which are largely devoid of surrender
which are largely devoid of surrender
except the surrender to the Guru
except the surrender to the Guru
See the actual surrender, is the surrender to the Soul
See the actual surrender, is the surrender to the Soul
that is the Antar Guru - the final destination.
The outer Guru is not the final destination.
So, if surrender to the outer Guru
is maintained as an exercise of surrender
it will only lead to the person, at one point
falling from that false experience of freedom
because there is no freedom...
...finally the body is here.
You have to come back to it...
...all the greatest masters had to do that
whether it was Ramana Maharishi, or...
Sri Aurobindo, Ramakrishna Paramahansa...
Anandamayi Ma... you can name them all.
They had...
...they went into the enlightenment states
of dissolution of identity
and at one point the body called them down again.
They had to get back into This
and most of the time they were not capable of really...
...reintegrating entirely
because, they had been too long, too far gone.
So the self-realization process, is very difficult then
because the self-realization process
is actually the surrender to Self
not the identification with Self
but the surrender, the bending down, the actual
...material physical surrender...
...the emotional surrender...
...conceptual surrender, and so on...
It's a bending down...
...it's a way of saying ...'I am the instrument'...
It's taking on 'I'-ness... identity, but as the instrument.
So, gradually what happens
that 'I' will fall...
so it'll be with ...'I, Clemen am your instrument'...
...'I love you, I am your servant'...
Then at one point, it's...
...'Clemen is the instrument'...
and then ...'the instrument'...
and then ...'instrument'...
and then, doing from the Truth.
This ego state of identification, or loss of 'I'-ness
does not appear at all
because the surrender is continuing
and in every moment.
So, if you are in that state, now
and you have taken up practices
to take you to that state
for sure...
...and I'm not cursing you, but I know because
I've seen...
I think thousands of people by now
who have been out there and had to come back down
and it's very painful
because there is no surrender... in that process.
Definitely don't want to experience that again.
So stay here.
The right way for me is to surrender
myself as an instrument of the Divine...
Yes.
...and remind myself at all times...
Yes...
...and discern, so if you are there...
in this state of, you know...
you're walking along the Ganga
and you're ...'all this is not me'...
...'my pain is not me, my suffering is not me'...
...'what freedom'...
This is an illusion
it's the ego that is telling you this
...'who is the one who's suffering?'...
...You are suffering...
and you can reduce that suffering, if
you take up the surrender to the Soul.
And you start to discern...
...'this action of mine'...
...'is it coming from the Truth?'...
...or is it coming from the ahankaar, the ego?'...
And each action... to start with major actions...
...then later on, minor actions...
you start to become aware of that.
Then, that fall cannot happen
because you're aware of what you're doing.
If you are in a state where
you don't connect with the pain
you'll continue to cause the pain to yourself
because you're not connecting with it.
And at one point when the fall comes, and I mean...
the fall, in the sense that the dissolution of identity
which has happened
will revert because
finally you're not a Soul flying around.
You are This
and you'll have to deal with This
and when you have to deal with This, then all that...
...illusion of freedom will fall away
and the pain is very extreme.
And it happens to practically everyone
and the reason it happens, is that fundamentally
those practices are ego-practices
and I know that people say
...'wait, but Ramana gave this...
...'and this one gave that'...
He did not give those practices.
There was an entire atmosphere of surrender
in which these Gurus taught...you know...
...and so...
That surrender posture
is an absolute fundamental must.
Every single person who takes up those practices
goes into such kinds of depression
because that freedom is lost... I mean...
...when you lose the freedom...
when you realize that ...'oops, I am This'...
...'This is hurting very badly'...
...when it's physical pain...
...from which you cannot detach any more...
...or it's emotional pain
which is so extreme that you...
can't detach from it anymore...
that's when the fall comes
and you realize that that freedom
was actually a conceptual creation.
And the freedom...
...need is only there
because the pain is not transformed.
When you transform it... How do you transform it?
You transform it by taking the bull by the horns
and saying... 'Ok, this is a situation which needs'...
...'which I can't detach from, but which I have to... accept'...
...'as an experience of This'...
...'and I transform it by continually and increasingly'...
...'bending down in surrender to the Soul'...
...'and trying to listen, so my actions won't create more'...
...'pain to this system as my life moves on'...
And that makes you the master of the being.
Just a last question
since I have surrendered a thousand times, this...
your answer might help somebody else too...
So, how do we surrender the right way?
I feel that it's a growing thing...
...it's like buidling a muscle, you know...
...you start...
Firstly, even the idea that surrender is the posture
and not this conceptual...
...elation, journey, or trip...
even that first needs to sink into your system
that you even realize
because you've been on a very different path.
This is not the same thing, it's very different
because it's very real, and it's a tough practice
because you have to be very present.
So even just pulling yourself to this moment
...here and now...
even just that is a very big step towards surrender.
And the 'this moment' is not you as...
...as the one without identity, no 'I'
simply observing the thoughts
and observing the actions
and observing the pain, and observing all of that.
No, it is... it is This
that is
continuously aware of the Divine Presence within.
Remember, you come from a culture which is
strongly influenced by the Abrahamic religions
which also then leaves a sort of a fear barrier
and your idea of Soul is... as you yourself said before...
...you want to experience the emptiness...
but there's no emptiness to experience
because it's fullness.
Your cultural imprint, your genetic inheritance
has convinced you that
has convinced you that
your connection has to be with emptiness
if at all, because the other thing that is out there
is God, or Jesus... so...
if you go inward it can only be emptiness
but it's not emptiness
it's fullness.
it's fullness.
That fullness is what you're going to have
That fullness is what you're going to have
That fullness is what you're going to have
to connect with
and in order to do that
you have to pierce through
a very well established barrier of fear
which has been instilled in you
through the ancestral inheritances
for thousand five hundred years or more.
It's very easy for many people to take up practices
where they can nicely say that...'I'm not this'...
...'I am not that'...
and they float along the Ganga, up and down
six inches above the ground
but at one point the landing happens, and...
...then it's very painful
because life has passed you by also, in that time.
Whereas if you're really present
and really here and now
in a state of surrender
...really in a state of surrender to the Soul...
...gradually the joy increases in this life
and there is pain, and there is suffering
but, it is not growing
...it is reducing.
So, the surrender posture comes
as you pierce through that barrier of fear
which you particularily have
as a genetic inheritance
and you pierce through... you're...'no, it is fullness'...
...'it is fullness, there's nothing to be afraid of'...
...'when I go inward... it is fullness'...
...'it is there... the Soul... the Supreme Soul'...
It's a material Presence, a material Presence...
...a material Presence.
It is not emptiness.
This is a...
inheritance of religion.
that says it is emptiness, because
then you have to connect with God
which religion has actually
taken out of you, and placed somewhere
as the mediator.
So basically, you're pulling that back
into yourself
and you're moving into a state of surrender.
And till the last breath in your body
that is the posture which will increase the joy
and there will be no fall
because, it's a bottom up process, it's just growing
...and growing, and growing...
...growing in surrender, growing in surrender...
...growing in surrender...
I do not support, in any way, any practice...
which moves too much
into the line of self-enquiry, conceptually.
I've seen that it just leads people to
a lot of suffering
a lot of detachment from
what is actually happening around
and into a false sense of freedom
which at one point is rudely taken away.
