hey everyone welcome back to Tech Talk
I'm Julia Beauchamp I am here with
computer world executive editor Ken
Mingius as well as Keith Shaw he's the
senior editor at Robotics Business
Review. Keith is back to talk robots
we're gonna talk cobots as well as
wearable robots and what to expect in
2020 and some thoughts from CES so stick
around alright Keith thank you so much
for coming back in hey I love talking
robots and you saw a lot of really cool
stuff going on at CES which I would love
to talk about and so the last time that
you were here we kind of talked about
you know don't freak out robots aren't
coming for your jobs right and what I
feel like has maybe come to light even
more since then is that robots aren't
coming for your jobs robots may even
help you and you're just yeah that yeah
the big message that word that a lot of
the robot industry companies are are
promoting is the idea of having robots
augment humans or help or help humans or
replace those dull tasks but still have
a human in the loop type of things I
heard one company talk about you heard
of industry 4.0 where they talk about
digitization of industrial type things
some people are now saying that industry
5.0 is going to be kind of that
collaboration in humans in technology
working together so it's definitely a
trend that that's happening I think if
you see anybody that that does still
talk about the whole humans and jobs and
things like that they've probably got an
agenda behind that that thought but
that's just kind of a personal opinion
what I'm curious what's the timeframe in
terms of like let's say it's you know
it's the industry 5.0 what - five years
- oh it could be anywhere between three
hours and now in ten years I mean okay
there's a lot of people that still say
that industry 4.0 hasn't really happened
yet I mean it depends on your definition
of what what that term should be and
what do you think industry 5.0 looks
like like what is going to be how will
we even know when it reaches its final
form oh boy I would say yeah I mean I I
don't necessarily think that you need to
kind of define that in terms of
when it happens it'll probably be slow
and gradual it you know as companies
especially in manufacturing in the
supply chain as they start to deploy
robots into their factories and in
warehouses then you'll start to see it
and then once they're there and then the
the workers get used to it then they'll
start adding applications or adding
features that make them more
collaborative I was collaborative is the
word I wanted to ask about because we
were talking about beforehand about this
idea of Co robots or Co robotics which
is just something that has sort of
bubbled up out of the ether in the last
I don't know six months we yeah we call
them cobots Koba yeah all right so so
what what is collaborative robotics I
mean is that is that that is a thing
yeah so initially when when these
ferdy's the these robots first started
coming out and I'm talking about robots
like the universal robots the you are
MOT the series they're usually smaller
now the industry actually calls them
light industrial ok so the big ones that
are at the car factories I was just
gonna say it sounds like auto
manufacturer manufacturers they've got
giant robots and they cage them all off
because you can't go in there cuz
they'll kill you because they don't have
any sensors on them yeah so what
Universal and some other companies not
intentionally not attention there's no
intelligence on these robots they
basically have been programmed move from
here to here move you know and then just
do a repetitive task it's repetitive
tasks it's very quick
what what what the Khobar makers did was
they started putting sensors on the arms
and so they're smaller robots and then
they can detect when you're here so
instead of me going like if you're not
there and I go like this okay well no no
if you're not there
okay then once you're there then then
it'll stop and so they move slower and
so the industrial robot makers will call
them light industrial or they'll call on
power and force limiting whereas the
other ones are calling the cobots
because the idea is that you're gonna
have a human kind of in the loop and you
know the humans gonna do one task and
the cobots gonna do the other task and
the idea is that they're gonna work
together on a task is it sort of the
sort of the kind of thing where you'd be
you know going back and forth so human
does tasks some oh yeah there are some
companies that are trying to integrate
that even more and so that like there's
a company in in Waltham called vo
robotics and they
they're putting sensors on large
industrial robots so that the so and and
and one of the use cases that they have
is someone that's kind of lifting a
refrigerator door to a refrigerator and
so what the the industrial robot arm
will pick up the the door and hold it
and they'll allow the human to come in
and then do the screws into the end of
the door and then the robot will then
move somewhere to the next one side with
everything that's the collaboration that
they're they're looking for
collaborative robots yeah really is I
mean it's just a robot stepping in to do
a task that maybe a human couldn't do in
the first place and it kind of makes
everything easier I mean I definitely
can't hold a heavy refrigerator door for
a while I haven't tried later right and
so even in the automotive space you know
that there are workers that just do this
all day like they've they're they lift
their arms yeah under the car and
they're just you know screwing in
something or or I don't know how to make
a car so yeah they're doing something
underneath the car and they usually have
a drill with them or some sort of tool
by the end of the day if you had to do
this if you had to stand like this for
eight hours like by the your shoulders
and your back and and so there's a lot
of injuries that occur with a lot of
these workers and so there are companies
that are trying to to either have a
robot set of do something to support
that or they're creating kind of
wearable systems that will help reduce
the strain on workers backs I was gonna
say that's really cool it's seems like
this seems like the most interesting
thing because it seems like it makes you
look like a robot it all feels very
futuristic
yes opening wearable robots so so
wearable robotics is now kind of a term
that's being thrown around for what used
to be called exoskeletons and they're
still called exoskeletons and even
within that space there are powered
exoskeletons or passive exoskeletons
though that whole industry started way
back in the day to support soldiers
who'd been injured in in in either
battle or somehow injured and may you
know maybe you've lost the ability to
walk and so a lot of these systems were
created to help people walk again some
amazing stuff so it's always it always
started out in the in the military side
and then
the healthcare therapeutic side so for
example people that have strokes and
lose the ability to sort of remember how
to walk we're seeing exoskeletons that
you know they'll get into one of these
systems and it actually helps them you
learn how to walk more than if you had
three physical therapists all holding
you and in fact that benefits the
therapists as well because now they
don't you know you only need one
physical therapist to sort of have
someone
relearn how to walk and then those other
two therapists can go help other
patients and so that's another area
where we're seeing kind of the robots
benefit so what a lot of these companies
did in the exoskeleton spaces now
they're moving more towards industrial
worker protection almost more preventing
injuries rather than just you know kind
of helping them after an injury so we've
seen vests that people can wear that
support the lower back some have power
some have some don't but some you know
some will do the arm stuff so that if
you're moving your arm it's you don't
have to extend as much energy right you
know the robot is it's not doing all the
work but it's doing less it's doing more
of it and so the company name Sarcos
made a big splash at CES this year sure
where they showed their guardian EXO
which has been in development for like
five or six years and they announced the
partnership with Delta Airlines and
Delta's gonna take you know a few of
these robot exoskeleton units and these
things look exactly like you might think
from the movie aliens with a corny
Weaver you know she uses it to fight the
alien you know what Delta's gonna be
doing Delta's not good Delta's gonna use
this in places where they're got workers
that are doing a lot of lifting and
maintenance and they were they showed a
few examples at the show they had a
giant airline tire like an airplane tire
and those things these things are as big
as me and so lifting up one of those
usually probably takes two or three
people and you're again you're straining
a lot of the back but with one of these
sit you know you walk into one of these
suits and you have the robot here and
you have the robots along the legs and
you walk around and then you could just
basically pick it up and they had this
woman that you know was doing a
demonstration she was saying that she'd
learned how to use it on Friday and on
Tuesday she was giving the
demonstrations just gonna ask about that
because this is worth
that I think would really require a lot
of training I mean or maybe not maybe
you can just sort of put this
exoskeleton on yeah that's one of the
salient yeah that's one of the selling
points of the system is that you know
they're claiming that it's easy for
workers to use because if again if
something's gonna take you three weeks
or four weeks to learn your workers
aren't gonna do that they're not gonna
they'll be just like I'll take the
chance and lift it on my own
another interesting part about this suit
is that that the you know when you when
you've got that the robot arms in the
hands yeah you can detach them you can
sort of like push a button and then use
your own hands so when they sort of fold
up so that example that you know she
used the the robot to lift this heavy
piece off but once she put that down
other smaller pieces that she could lift
that were only like 2 or 3 pounds she
could then just kind of use her own arms
so she detaches herself from those arms
parts and then lifts to confirm the
robot for the heavy pieces that you
can't move yeah when you need something
that's more granular control or
something with you know with like tools
right especially with the fingers
because the thing the grippers that are
on these things are probably two fingers
or three finger grippers and you know
the hands are still the best part of the
best maybe maybe a dumb question but I
mean all right so you put on the
exoskeleton how does the robot know what
movements you're doing doesn't are there
sensors that are built into like the
arms or the the shoulders you know how
does it mimic human human I think it I
think it detects where them the you know
where there's a full human starts the
movement and then I think the robot
figures out which way you're going and
then helps the force that's that's about
as much as like a vision of one of these
things going nuts no no no I think once
you step into it it's not gonna like
take over it's you know you you know
once you start moving then it goes oh
you're moving stop moving and then if
you stop it'll stop right and there's
there's there's I think there's an
interface that you can tell it to like
stop - and there's an emergency stop if
kill but if it suddenly gets sentience
which I'm joking you're not gonna know
but I mean I could see you know I mean
all right so technology does
occasionally go awry and you're in an
exoskeleton holding a big heavy wheel
and something gets glitchy and you know
the wheel goes flying or the wheel falls
on your foot or something yeah I think
that they've probably thought about all
that stuff okay and they're not gonna
die what assume
yeah it's like when you like grab your
siblings arm you're like why are you
hitting yourself it seems like when is
this gonna actually roll out though I
mean how soon is Delta is Delta gonna be
the first airline to implement this
they're they're in like the pilot
program okay probably right now I mean
they're probably gonna get it for 30 to
60 days so the way that that sarcos
works is that they have this thing
called the advisory group or the
exoskeleton it's called xTag I can't
remember the T stands for but companies
sign up with them and then they suggest
an application where they were thinking
about using an exoskeleton and then the
company says okay well let's try it for
30 days in 60 days then give us feedback
we'll give you you know we'll let you
borrow the it's basically letting them
borrow the robot for a while so it's not
like Delta bought this and then later
you know and then you know throughout
the rest of the year the company's gonna
produce more and more of these things
and then deploy them to other industries
that's really cool
you know Delta might just come back and
go you know what it's you know it was
too hard or you know we didn't get the
benefit we were looking for so you know
but I don't think that's gonna happen
but you know they might think of other
things that they can do with these
robots yeah definitely I'm heading to
the airport tomorrow let you know if I
see any they're not gonna be any near
the plane I think you're gonna see this
in maintenance and maybe luggage because
there was a yeah maybe if you are on the
tarmac and you're looking out as they're
unloading maybe they'll put them out
there and you'll see this you know
person I've got a window so you don't
let you know please do I mean no one
wants to be lifting my luggage I'm sure
I always am at 49.9 I wanted to ask you
know one of the things you've written
about from CES is that in the old days
sort of robotics at CES meant things
like Roomba yeah and obviously there's
been this real shift toward industrial
type robots as you're talking about one
of them one of the companies that you'd
reference was Omron and a table tennis
and yeah but it's not so much about the
table tennis it's yeah it's it's beyond
so they use an industrial robot that's
kind of a vertical one and usually these
robots are using they're doing like
picking and placing type things they're
picking up an object and putting it over
here yeah for an assembly line type
type of application but what on ROM
won't wanted to do and they've done this
for about four years as they developed
an application where it this robot holds
a ping-pong paddle and actually can can
hit the ball back to a human opponent
and they tell me that they're like it's
not about the ping-pong robot being
better than the human they're not trying
to prove that a robot can play ping pong
better than a human actually it's table
tennis because I think ping pong is yeah
those trademarked words okay so anyway
so they they're they're trying to say
that they're using it as a as a tutor or
a trainer so if you want to learn how to
be better at ping pong you know the the
the robot can adjust its skills to do
more long rallies with you because again
the idea of training when you're playing
ping pong is to you don't want to just
you know play ping pong ball boom and I
miss and then I gotta go pick up the
ball right it's more about having a
sustained rally and it's the same thing
with regular tennis too when you're
training you want to have long rally so
that you're you're practicing your swing
and things like that so what they've
also done is they've added some
artificial intelligence with a camera
that can can detect the face of the
player and they have this emotional
intelligence sensor that can tell
whether you're happy sad frustrated does
what makes it well if you're if you're
less if you're getting if you're ticked
off because you're losing to this robot
the robot okay maybe I'm gonna back off
a little bit and you know allow you to
that to sustain that rally and so
they're using that as an example to show
attendees yeah we can also use this in a
factory setting and we can tell whether
the workers who we are trying to get to
collaborate more we can now sense the
feelings of these of these workers to
say whether they're stressed out or if
they're tired or you know and so and
then it adjusts based on those settings
that's I was just gonna ask you about
you know because it seems like with at
least the early generation of industrial
robots they're sort of like dumb robots
that you know again doing repetitive
movement maybe augmenting what humans
are doing but are we seeing a trend or
do we expect there to be a trend where
you're gonna see more AI built into the
robot where there's some intelligence
built in yeah yeah so that you know
there there are movements and in terms
of making the robots intelligent in
terms of how they learn how to
tasks so before you would have this
thing called dependent and you would
have a programmer basically telling it
you know move from here to here and then
do this and it's very you know tedious
and it takes a lot of time now we're
seeing robots we're you know more on the
co bot space where it's called gesture
based programming so you basically move
the robot itself and you tell it you
know you move it you pick it up and then
you place it on your own and then the
robot
mimics mimics that and then or and then
they've got the reporting cameras on it
so that it can see where it is because a
lot of the robots are very precise they
will only move to a point and if the cup
it you know if you're picking up a cup
here the robots never gonna pick it up
unless it can see it and then adjust
itself so there's a lot of machine
learning that's going on where you're
trying to train robots through machine
learning algorithms so that again it can
do the one task but then maybe do a
second task and learn a third task and
that's that's kind of the exciting stuff
going on in terms of AI but they're and
they're also putting more sensors on it
so you can see and adjust and you know
not kill you again and I wonder - how
are these things network or connected I
mean are they are there is there a hard
wired cable somewhere that goes into the
robot is it you know yeah it depends on
the system most of the processing right
now is happening on the robot itself so
there's a computer inside the robot but
you know there are movements more
towards AI processing in the cloud and
edge prot you know so that we do cover a
lot about edge AI and you know
especially in the autonomous vehicle
space the computers that need to be in
these cars are so big and bulky that
it's not going to be beneficial okay so
that's why with 5g and some of this edge
networking you're seeing the movement
towards all of the processing and
decision-making happening kind of in the
cloud and and less on the car okay yeah
that can be done locally rather than
right but a lot of a lot of factories
and industrial locations are really wary
about connecting a lot of their
equipment to the cloud because these are
big machines and they don't want they've
got security concerns and you don't want
to start connecting all this stuff some
of the like the mobile robots in the
warehouse they all do connect via Wi-Fi
so a lot of those companies require that
there's a Wi-Fi connection okay because
a lot of the data that gets that gets
that gets picked up from these robots
get
sent and processed in the cloud yeah
well that I mean because as these things
advance obviously you have to deal with
things like a IML you have to deal with
the networking you know there's there
has to be a sort of an ecosystem
building around them so I just want to
back up to like 30,000 foot view real
quick about the robotics industry in
general and and recent growth I mean do
you have any numbers or stats on you
know the robotics industry sort of
broadly and how it's been growing over
the last few years and how it's expected
to grow in the next five ten I can't
give you a kind of any numbers that I
have off the top of my head I see so
many market reports on a regular basis
but most of the reports I see they all
do the curve they all say that you know
we're at the cusp and it's good it's
gonna continue to grow and and advance
depends on the market it depends on the
verticals that are being looked at I
mean manufacturing it's already there
electronics and component assembly it's
a lot it's already there supply chain I
mean we just got out of the holiday
season you know robots probably most of
the packages that you bought a robot
probably helped deliver that from a
warehouse or a distribution center to
the person packing the box whether it
was they moved whether it was they moved
the whole shelf which is what Amazon
does yeah or whether it was a company
like locust where the robot goes to the
warehouse and then there's a picker and
the picker puts it into the into the
into the robot the robot delivers it to
the to the packing station so they're
you know there's there's growth
everywhere we're seeing a lot more
growth in agriculture and construction
healthcare with the surgical robots
that's always that's always going to be
there we're gonna see more robots in
healthcare scenarios that aren't
surgical so lab automation we're gonna
see a lot of robots materials handling
delivering linens and TV trays or the
ones that go down the hall yeah and
drops off food or drops off or picks up
things yep in fact and so I just got
back from the retail show the National
Retail Federation show and we're seeing
a lot of robots that are gonna be in
grocery stores you're probably gonna see
them you're gonna see more robots and
grocery stores probably talking shelves
no no no no and so that's the big
misconception because so about Miska so
for example this week Walmart announced
that they're gonna be deploying a
thousand robots across the country now
they've done about 300 robots
far and it was a pilot program it was
through a company called bossa nova
robotics and they announced this week
that they're expanding that program so
they're going up to a thousand and so
you know the mainstream media and some
of the general media sites were like oh
my god the robots are coming they're
gonna take all the Walmart associate
jobs it's like no they're not they're
taking away the horrible task of
counting in terms of good and out of
stocks like the worst thing is a
customer when you go to a store is what
you go there you go there - elfis empty
and they don't have the product that is
a big big problem for retailers it's a
trillion-dollar problem like I've lost
business there there are people that
will will abandon a store completely if
they don't have you know something
they'll be like well I'm never gonna buy
here again your net you know you said
you had it you didn't yeah and so that's
a big problem that that automation is
now taken care of where this robot can
go down an aisle scan it sees that
something's empty and alert a store
associate or someone that says hey we're
out of we're out of Cocoa Puffs you know
just right and some so when that alert
happens then an associate you can go and
restock the cocoa puffs and you know so
that so that when when Keith comes in
you know cocoa puffs are my cocoa puffs
are there instead of out of stock would
the robot not at some point alert the
you know the store that the cocoa cocoa
puffs are out and then a robot would
come back and stock the cocoa puffs
rather than having somebody in jail in
theory right that's something and that's
what we're calling mobile manipulation
where you're combining an autonomous
mobile robot with with a cobalt arm but
right now the research isn't like the
gripping ability for a robot to go in
take a bomb once cocoa puffs yeah it's
just not there yet it's it might get
there at some point but again it's not
it's it's more about giving the the
tasks of the of the associates more time
to talk with with customers and you know
yeah and and so a lot of these robots in
addition to finding out of stocks
they're also making sure the prices are
matched and they're making sure that the
what's called a planogram which is like
a display and you want to make sure that
the you know from if you're
anheuser-busch and you have a beer
display for the Superbowl yeah you want
to make sure that it's stocked correctly
the way you want it to be stocked and so
what a lot of these these people that
set this stuff up this they'll take it
picture of it to prove that it's right
but during the course of a day you know
the customers up they take things up
takings away put put cocoa puffs onto
the beer display you know all that kind
of stuff so these robots will come
around and do that and say oh it's not
matching the planogram hey fix this okay
so that's that's a lot of the stuff and
a lot of these are handled by robots but
we're also seeing some some of this
handled by drones indoor little drones
that can do the thing and we're seeing
like little shelf cameras that people
are putting on but a lot of it depends
on the size of the store and the and you
know what you're looking for and where
what part of the market are the drones
in the cameras part of the of the robot
roll out that wall mortars doing it or
is there no they're doing is just
specifically a vertical robot well on
wheels that has scanners on and they go
up and down the aisle and scans we're
usually just a grocery aisle and do they
do that when people are shopping or like
after hours oh so you might yeah we can
do it a lot of the times they do it
after hours but but they are doing it
during the day and so what's interesting
is the robot company the guys that the
robot company tells me like they're
learning a lot about human robot
interaction uh-huh and do they put
smiles on the doors now colorful no no
in fact they design these robots to not
look like a happy robot they basically
make it look like no there's no there's
no face on it there's no screens it's
just a vertical tower in the industrial
it looks industrial it's meant to be a
tool for the for the for the for Walmart
rather than something that you would
interact with now I have seen examples
of some robots that they want to have
that interaction and so that they are
putting so they are more more more thing
it looks no it's still a tower but
they're but they've got like a display
on it so that you can almost like a
tablet that you could then touch and
interact and with that but just to go
back to some of the human robot
interaction like they tell me some
stories off the record although I'm
gonna say I'm here of where like you
know how people people are the worst
sometimes yeah and you know whenever
that technology comes around they'll try
to do you know to make fun of it so you
know they'll stand there - just block
block the robot stop
yeah the see if it'll stop and then see
how long it is opting out of the gene
pool sometimes yeah you know and and
then some you know one one guy told me
that you know
what customer mooned one of the robots
so let me but they're cameras on the
robot so they probably have pictures of
these these customers that are doing
these stupid things maybe his Koko not
there he's mad because the Koga oh one
other thing is like as retailers are
moving towards this you know buying
online pick up in store it's even more
important for these stores to have that
that item in stock sure because again
the last thing you do is if you know
you're online you're like oh I'm gonna
go pick it up and then they come back
and go oh we couldn't find it is anybody
besides Walmart doing this kind of
testing a lot of groceries a lot of
grocery stores and there a lot of
regional change Kroger is doing a lot of
this there's a chain called giant
there's some in the Midwest that are
doing Stop and Shop has robots here in
New England right now the robots are
doing spill detection okay so they're
they're looking around leaning up an
aisle for yeah so they're they're just
going around making sure that you know
there's no water on the floor so that
you know because again if a customer
comes in and slips and falls right
they're liable so what's oven shot had
was they had employees walking around
like once an hour looking to see if
there were spills and so now the robot
is doing that and the company that makes
the robot is now adding inventory
scanning capabilities so that it'll have
a dual purpose Wow yes and if we're
lucky we'll see some on our own either
at the airport at the grocery store yeah
yeah any other trends or things we
should be thinking about as we move in
the next few years you're just gonna you
know we might see some consolidation of
some robot companies there are a lot of
startups in the space and I think that
as they prove that they're successful
you're gonna see larger companies take
notice for example last the big one last
year was Shopify buying six river
systems and so six river systems had a
mobile robot that was doing inventory
I'mnot inventory they were they were
going and doing pick up with warehouse
stock shelves and you know Shopify
bought them similar to the way that
Amazon bought Kiva back in 2012 and so I
think that we're gonna still probably
see some more big announcements in that
space okay it does sound like in terms
of robotics in general it's still sort
of in the background it's still very
early industry but it's exciting to
cover because there's always something
new and there's always something kind of
cool so next time you come by can you
bring an exoskeleton expensive I might
help loan those out like a get one like
a knife we did it we did a conference
session at CES and one of the one of my
speakers was from Ekso bionics and so
they're doing more of the therapeutic
robots but he actually did most of his
presentation with the business goal with
the wearable one on you know that it was
wearing and then when he sat down for
the Q&A he took it off okay no I think
that's it thanks so much all right hey
no problem thanks for having me here
yeah thanks for being here Keith thank
you all so much for watching this
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to see you next time thanks bye
