SPEAKER 1: Please welcome
the hosts of "Reply All,"
PJ Vogt and Alex Goldman.
[APPLAUSE]
So "Reply All" launched a
little more than two years ago,
in the fall of 2014.
You were the second
podcast at Gimlet
after "Startup,"
which was the podcast
about the creation of Gimlet,
the podcast that sort of eats
its own tail.
You've covered topics like
medical mysteries, true crime,
LSD, military
impostures, a doctor
searching for a cure for ALS.
You've also done episodes that
aren't reported stories at all.
We're going to talk a little bit
about your very special, very
strange call-in
show a little later.
I hope that's OK.
"Reply All" is called a
show about the internet.
So to what extent is
that actually true?
PJ VOGT: That's a good question.
It's funny.
It's like when we started,
we thought of that
as I guess a joke.
The way that "Seinfeld"
is a show about nothing,
like, it would be true-ish.
And I feel like
actually as we've gone,
there have been times where we
felt like we wanted to be more
of an internet show, and
times where we felt like we
wanted to get away from it.
It feels like we have this
internal team calculus for,
like, on a given story, how far
we can go away from it being
an internet story and why.
And I don't know if anybody
who listens to the show
agrees with or understands
our logic for it.
Because it's not
very comprehensible.
But we think we know.
ALEX GOLDMAN: Every
episode, I'm always
like sure we include a sentence
here which like obliquely
mentions the internet?
For purposes of saying the
show is about the internet?
And then Tim's
like no, it's done.
Why would you do that?
It's about the
internet in as far
as the internet is like home
base for human interaction
in a lot of ways.
Which is a huge
advantage to us, I
think, in terms of
being able to talk
about kind of whatever we want.
But if we ever want
to tackle a story,
we will retrofit a justification
onto it in order to do it.
Rather than looking for
stories that are specifically
internet related.
Even though I'm kind of a nerd.
And I kind of--
PJ VOGT: You're the one
who worries more about it.
ALEX GOLDMAN: Yeah.
But I mean I tend to--
PJ VOGT: Get shouted down.
ALEX GOLDMAN: OK.
I tend to veer toward
those kinds of topics
anyway, just in my interests.
SPEAKER 1: So before making
a podcast that was ostensibly
about the internet, what were
your personal relationships
to the internet?
PJ VOGT: I feel like we're
both sort of long time internet
nerd natives.
Just because Alex is older
than me, where we came in
was different.
I was like an AOL 2.0.
I was like 12.
And that was my first
internet, I think.
Whereas Alex was like
dial-up BBS weirdo stuff.
ALEX GOLDMAN: Yeah, I had
a 4,800 baud internal modem
on my dad's laptop.
And I would call--
there was a BBS in our town
that had four phone lines.
And I didn't know how
to automate calling.
So I would just sit
there and type it.
And I would like
just run the command
over and over and over again.
And then when I got
through, I'd be really
excited for about four minutes.
And then call waiting
would kick me off.
It sucked.
It sucked.
It took hours to get onto the
internet for like five minutes.
PJ VOGT: But I
think an advantage
that we had because of that
when we started making the show
was just, like, a lot of people
who report about the internet--
less so now, but definitely
when we started, and still
somewhat-- treat the internet
as like a fake or cheesy space.
Where it's like, oh,
there's this thing
people are always
doing, but now they're
doing it on the internet.
Like as if that in
itself is interesting.
And I think for both of
us, we took it for granted
that you could have
friends on the internet.
You can fall in love or deeply
hate somebody on the internet.
Like that seemed normal.
And seeing that as
normal, I think,
has been an advantage in
how we look at a story
and what we find
interesting about a story.
I think that's a thing
we have in common.
ALEX GOLDMAN: Yeah.
I agree with him.
SPEAKER 1: Oh, OK.
So then what makes a story
right for "Reply All"
if the internet is
such a loose conceit.
PJ VOGT: OK.
So I'm going to give
a working theory,
you tell me if you agree.
ALEX GOLDMAN: I disagree.
PJ VOGT: So the fact that
we're about the internet
I feel like gives us permission
to do hard internet stories.
If we want to do a thing
about Fios, we can do it.
If we're not going
to do one of those,
I think what we're
starting to learn
is that what makes
a "Reply All" story
a "Reply All" story has
less to do with the topic
and more to do with
the outlook of it.
So we're very
interested in people.
We like stories that go all
over the place emotionally.
Like we really are
allergic to things
that, like, stay in one feeling.
So if it's a story
that starts out funny,
we're going to be
excited if it gets sad.
Same with vice versa.
We like stories that--
we talk about jumping the rails,
like the way an amusement park
ride would be on them.
We like the feeling of a story
that starts in one place,
and goes somewhere
you just really
could not have planned
from the beginning.
Those are the stories
that we tend to like.
People start to get excited,
and people start to pitch in on.
Also, we like small stories.
Like looking at things that
are kind of inconsequential,
and then treating them with a
lot of focus and seriousness.
ALEX GOLDMAN: I disagree.
I agree, I agree, I agree.
I have gotten a
couple of pitches
the past couple of
days which were like,
I would like you to discuss
this particular-- it was like,
I'm an expert on this
ecosystem of the internet,
and I would like you
to talk about it.
And that to me in itself is--
the fact of an ecosystem on the
internet is not interesting.
Because there are
all kinds of crazy
ecosystems on the internet.
There are like weightlifting
forums, there's the darknet,
there's this and
that and everything.
Like all of those things,
the fact of them existing
is just like, yeah,
there's going to be--
that's going to
exist everywhere.
But like the story of
someone inside of that place,
either doing something
unexpected or like utilizing it
in a way you wouldn't imagine
or like turning it on its head
or causing a major disruption--
those are the stories
that interest me.
So every time I get back
to them, I'm like, yeah,
it's cool that
that place exists.
I'd really love for there to
be like a character in this
that we could follow.
Because that is I
think the stuff that
makes our show the strongest.
Like PJ said, the people,
people within those
places that we like to explain.
And also having someone who is
a character within that place
is a very useful way to also
explain the fact of that place.
SPEAKER 1: So you'll start
episodes with a character.
PJ VOGT: I mean, sometimes
we'll start with--
there are times
where like, oh, I
want to know more about
this world or whatever.
But the moment
where we feel like--
and this is also a thing about
just radio or podcasts is,
like, you need
somebody who's like--
we always hear
about good talkers.
You need somebody who's
just like to listen to them
you feel like you know them or
you feel you want to know them.
Like they have a
vivid way of speaking.
Like they show up,
and you can just--
there's like a feeling you get.
And you hear it as a listener,
you hear it as a producer.
If we have a character,
we can make a story.
If we don't, we can
try, and, like, we do--
ALEX GOLDMAN: We have made them.
PJ VOGT: And they're very,
very, very difficult.
SPEAKER 1: Can you
think of an example
of the top of your head?
PJ VOGT: Well, I'm
trying to think
of one that was successful.
I just did one, honestly, I just
did a story a few episodes ago.
It was about this quack
doctor from the 1920s.
And he believed,
or he told people
that he believed, that if he
could implant goat testicles
into men's scrotums,
it would cure basically
whatever ailed them.
And he was very interesting.
He's very dead.
So he couldn't talk.
And like building a story
around somebody who you
didn't have access to was hard.
We found ways, I think,
to get around it.
And he had had a radio
show, which helped.
And so there's that.
But doing a story
like that is like much
more painful and difficult.
ALEX GOLDMAN: I have a real
predilection toward stories
about dead dudes.
PJ VOGT: Yeah, you love it.
ALEX GOLDMAN: And they
almost never make it
to the radio because
I can't talk to them.
So I get secondhand stories that
are not particularly reliable.
But man, they're always so--
why are dead people
always so interesting?
PJ VOGT: I don't know, man.
SPEAKER 1: How far
do you get sort
of researching and
reporting a story
before you know that it's
going to make it as an episode?
PJ VOGT: We work on stuff a lot.
Like we are very
willing to try stuff.
And things will kind of--
it's weird.
Like a question
people always ask
is how long do you typically
work on an episode.
And it's actually
hard for us to tell.
Because you'll be interested
in something, you'll try it,
you'll push and push, you'll ask
the questions you can think of.
And you'll talk to
the people the person
you talked to suggested.
And you'll hit a point where
you're like, this isn't enough,
and I don't know
what to add to it.
And we'll shelve those things
until either something changes,
or we're so desperate
that like, well, it
looks a little bit better now.
We try not to kill stuff.
Like we try to just keep
whacking the pinata.
Because a lot of
stuff we're most
proud of was ugly like
throughout the process
of making it.
Like sometimes for as
much as over a year.
Where it was just
like a stinker.
And then somebody had like one
weird little breakthrough that
made it actually really fun.
And another characteristic
of some of our stories
is that we'll try to
include that process.
We'll try to make you feel the
way we felt discovering it.
And so sometimes the
ones that look bad,
it can weirdly be a
strength for them, sort of.
Some you kill.
Like some, you're just like,
this is never happening.
We also have a team
where everyone sort of--
you'll come up
with a lark-y idea.
It won't work on first blush.
You'll try to back away from it.
And you have a bunch of
people like pushing you
off the diving board, basically.
Which is intimidating, but
which is really helpful.
SPEAKER 1: When you guys first
started working together,
it was on another internet
adjacent podcast called "TLDR."
Was that just the two of you?
Was there anyone pushing you
off the diving board there?
PJ VOGT: That was pretty
much just the two of us.
ALEX GOLDMAN: Yeah.
We'd get help from
people occasionally.
There were people
who we would, like,
share ideas with who are not--
but like no one who
was on the payroll.
It was just us, basically.
PJ VOGT: Yeah.
I mean, it was different because
that show was allowed to--
we could make it as
short as we wanted.
And it could come out as
infrequently as we wanted.
So we were much more--
we killed a lot more things.
Which was great.
ALEX GOLDMAN: And
we had episodes
that were six minutes long.
So that was also great.
I really want to
go back to that.
PJ VOGT: I think
it's late to do that.
SPEAKER 1: How did
"TLDR" come about?
And how did the two of you
start making a podcast together?
ALEX GOLDMAN: Well,
we worked together
on a show called On
The Media at WNYC.
And there was a content
contest in the station.
Where they were like, submit
your story, submit your ideas,
and the winner
will be made into--
will be given the
funding and the care
to be made into a podcast.
So we were like, we should
make a weekly show that's
about the internet.
And it should be like--
the pitch was really weird.
PJ VOGT: Or it was like, it will
come out multiple times a week.
And it was so stupid.
It was like, it will come
out multiple times a week.
It'll be really topical.
It bore very little resemblance
to what we ended up actually
making.
But we pitched it in a contest.
We were like finalists and lost.
ALEX GOLDMAN: We lost.
"Death Sex & Money" won.
So if you guys listen to "Death
Sex & Money," that is the show.
PJ VOGT: And two other shows
that I don't think necessarily
made it out of development.
ALEX GOLDMAN: Yeah.
PJ VOGT: But we
basically, like, convinced
our boss to let us just
try it without getting
a lot of-- just sort of nights
and weekends, basically.
And it got enough attention
that eventually we
were able to justify making
it a full time thing.
Instead of doing that
while also helping
to produce another show.
But it was nice--
I mean, I think that if we'd--
being able to make something
without anybody asking you
a lot of questions about
why you were doing it
was really useful.
And being able to kind of fail
in public weirdly was useful.
Just not getting
a lot of feedback,
but just getting to kind of
iterate on it was really cool.
ALEX GOLDMAN: If we'd
started "Reply All"
without doing "TLDR," I think
the first 25 episodes would
have been kind of like, eh.
And then we kind of would
have found our groove.
But we got to find our
groove with much fewer people
watching.
PJ VOGT: And we got to do--
we tried stuff that if there had
been a person in the room with
experience, would have
said, like, don't.
And some of that stuff actually
worked out really well.
There were some places where
we were inventing things
because we just didn't know
how to do it the right way.
Which I'm really grateful for.
SPEAKER 1: And that show, it
was a pretty clear evolution
into "Reply All," I think.
Like they were both
about the internet.
But so was it just that in like
2014, Gimlet called you guys up
and was like, want to come
make a podcast with us?
PJ VOGT: More or less, yeah.
We felt like it seemed
really exciting.
I mean, Alex Blumberg
is somebody who
I think we both looked up to.
It was like getting to work with
somebody that felt like a once
in a lifetime experience.
And also getting
to be at the start.
We were working for--
a night-- like WNYC
is a good place.
It's also been there
for a very long time.
It seemed exciting to be there
for the beginning of a thing,
even if like--
ALEX GOLDMAN: It
was a thing that
was not going to last for
a very long time, maybe.
SPEAKER 1: It felt risky?
PJ VOGT: Oh god.
ALEX GOLDMAN: Yes and no.
I mean, yes, it did.
But--
PJ VOGT: You were
having a child.
ALEX GOLDMAN:
Yeah, I was about--
we started the show in
November, and my son
was born at the end of January.
But at the same time, it
was like Sarah, my wife,
was never like, maybe this
isn't such a good idea.
She was just like, go do it.
PJ VOGT: My dad told
me it was a bad idea.
ALEX GOLDMAN: Yeah, well.
My dad always tells me that
good ideas are bad ideas.
So--
PJ VOGT: Yeah.
SPEAKER 1: Alex, you've also
had a sort of not totally
linear career path, right?
ALEX GOLDMAN: I've
had every job ever.
No, I've had a lot of jobs.
But when I graduated from
college, I went into--
after brief stints as an
intern for Tan Dun, the guy who
did the music for "Crouching
Tiger, Hidden Dragon,"
and like working at a
music production place,
I was an IT guy.
I was network administrator
for five years.
And I graduated with
a journalism degree.
But it was like I
moved to New York.
I didn't have any money.
I had a ton of
student loan debt.
And I had a bunch of friends who
are musicians, who were like,
hey, this place is pretty cool.
If we want to go on tour,
they give us time off.
So I was like, all
right, I'll check it out.
PJ VOGT: Did you
ever go on tour?
ALEX GOLDMAN: No.
So like that benefit
was not right for me.
And then when I got an
internship in public radio,
I was like, hey, you guys
let everybody go on tour.
Can you extend that
same courtesy to me?
And they were like,
no, you can quit.
So I quit.
PJ VOGT: Yeah.
Which is a crazy thing
to do because you don't--
public radio interns
are not really--
ALEX GOLDMAN: I was told very
specifically, like, this is not
a path to a job.
If you want to do
this, you are going
to do it because you want the
experience, and that's it.
It's not going happen.
PJ VOGT: But that didn't
turn out to be true.
ALEX GOLDMAN: Yeah.
I got lucky.
SPEAKER 1: PJ, was your path a
little more traditional radio--
PJ VOGT: Basically.
I was in college.
I applied to be an intern
for "This American Life."
I got the internship, so
I dropped out of college.
I did the internship,
and then got
a job temping at "On The Media,"
which is where Alex ended up.
I was like-- yeah, the short
way instead of the long way.
Which I liked.
It was good.
Yeah.
Do you feel like having a
weirder path has helped you?
Like--
ALEX GOLDMAN: Don't I
seem so worldly to you?
PJ VOGT: No.
I keep waiting for you
to be like, in my time--
like that you would learned
one lesson at every weird job.
And they would all apply.
ALEX GOLDMAN: No.
PJ VOGT: It seems like you
learned that you don't like--
ALEX GOLDMAN: I
learned that most jobs
are really hard and bad.
SPEAKER 1: Is this
one hard and bad?
ALEX GOLDMAN: Can be.
No, this job is great.
This is the best.
This is everything I've ever
wanted to do with my life.
The only problem with it is
I can do whatever I want.
I know that sounds nuts.
But it's like with no one
telling me what to do,
suddenly it's easy to panic,
with no one telling you
what to do.
I mean, but yeah.
This is amazing.
This is awesome.
PJ VOGT: It feels like
a scam a lot of times.
ALEX GOLDMAN: Yeah,
or feels like we're
getting away with something.
Like, there are a bunch of
people in a room watching
us talk right now.
What is that about?
SPEAKER 1: That's
a good question.
To make a sort of awkward
segue about audience and people
watching you do what you do,
one of the interesting things
about being really early
employees at Gimlet was that--
so you were the second
podcast, and the first podcast
was the one that was about
the creation of your employer,
which meant that the first--
you know, now "StartUp"
is about other start-ups,
but the first couple
seasons were about Gimlet.
And so meetings were recorded,
conversations were recorded.
Not like-- you knew you
were being recorded.
But a lot of things were public,
and had an audience, including
some difficult things.
So first, when
you joined Gimlet,
did you know that
would be the case?
PJ VOGT: Yeah,
because literally,
I think the first time, even
before we joined Gimlet,
we would have meetings
with Alex about--
you know, like the kinds of
negotiations you have before
deciding to accept a job.
And we'd be meeting
in a bar or whatever,
and he would show up with giant
headphones and a big field
microphone, and it
wouldn't turn on.
You're like, OK, he's
going to get a little bit,
and then we're going
to really talk.
But it was just the whole thing.
And if he started
to put it down,
and you said
something, you know,
like, but seriously, I'm really
worried about what it would
mean to join a company in a
warehouse that has no money
and is crazy, he'd be
like, wait, say that--
hold on.
Like, he really-- any time
something bad happened
at Gimlet for the
first year, you
knew something bad was happening
if Alex had a microphone, which
is interesting.
SPEAKER 1: What was that like?
I mean, that sounds terrifying.
ALEX GOLDMAN: I kind of got
used to it pretty quick.
PJ VOGT: I mean,
weirdly, it was helpful.
Like, from the outside, it
sounds like it would definitely
be bad, and there were times
where you were sort of like--
I don't know.
I think the thing
that was cool about it
was Alex is a really
great boss, and one
of the reasons he's a great
boss is he really listens.
If there's a problem,
and you tell him
why you think it's a
problem, he just like--
I've never had that
relationship with anybody
who had more power
than me at a workplace.
And the fact that he
was doing this project,
I think it made
him more like that.
Like, you'd be upset,
and he'd be like,
tell me why you're upset.
As much as you're like, I wish
you weren't recording this,
it also meant he was going to
sit down and think about it
and write about it.
And yeah, you--
I think for the most
part, it helped.
I think that there
might have been--
more things could've
gotten swept
under the rug if
somebody wasn't like,
every time there's
something bad,
we're going to put all of our
organizational attention on it.
ALEX GOLDMAN: I will also say
that I think that by the time
we started, the first couple
episodes of "StartUp" were out,
and it was very clear to
me that he was building
a relationship, like
a trust relationship,
with the audience that
definitely could not
be replicated at Gimlet
now, definitely helped us
a lot, because people heard
us screw up in big ways.
And we got to be like, look.
This is who we are.
We're trying our best, and here
are the bad things we're doing,
and here are the ways that
this job is hard, and here are
the ways that we want to do
the thing that we can't do yet.
And that, I think, was--
I think having our
stuff out there
in the world redounded to our
benefit in a pretty crazy way.
PJ VOGT: I think the
only downside, actually,
was people would
listen to an episode,
and it's like when
you're watching TV shows,
you're like, I fucking
hate that character.
Like, people would
feel that way about me.
And so that was weird.
They're like, oh,
you're whining too much.
It's like, you're
whining too much.
Like, what was your
week at work like?
SPEAKER 1: Were they
telling you this?
PJ VOGT: Oh, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER 1: Like,
@PJVogt, stop whining.
PJ VOGT: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
A lot of that.
A lot more with me, I
think, than with you.
ALEX GOLDMAN: It's because
you've got a whiny voice.
PJ VOGT: Yeah.
So that's hard.
Also, people-- you're feeling
things that are really intense,
but people don't
necessarily listen
to podcasts the moment
that they're happening.
And so there's this
weird emotional lag,
where whether someone's
being angry or supportive,
they're like, oh my god,
I just heard, are you OK?
And you're like, that
was eight months ago.
I don't remember anything.
ALEX GOLDMAN: For
a year afterward,
people were like, how's
your foot fungus, PJ?
PJ VOGT: Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER 1: Do you also get a
lot of very candid listener
feedback to your own show?
PJ VOGT: Yeah, we do.
I mean, I think it's a
thing about podcasts.
I think it's just people
really feel like they know you.
And the weird thing is, I
think they more or less do.
That's what's weird.
There are people
who like me or don't
like me the way people in my
life like me or don't like me.
And it feels--
I don't know.
Like, when we were just writing
online, when we were blogging,
and people would have a problem
with me, I was like, eh,
whatever.
Like, this is just your
weird projected idea.
Now there's more people
where I'm like, yeah,
I think you don't like me.
I don't know why you keep
listening to the podcast.
But I see you.
Like, I get it.
It's very strange.
ALEX GOLDMAN: There are
a couple of very sort
of standard complaints
we get about the show--
that we say "like"
too much is one.
But I'd say that people who
are candid, a lot of times I
try to not get super
defensive, and actually
hear what people have to
say, because a lot of times,
there's some element of
it that's useful to me.
But it doesn't mean that
the 140-character format
of telling people how you feel
about them is super sensitive.
So that's not great.
But yeah, I mean, yes, people
are very candid with us
about how they feel
about the show or us
as people, because we as people
appear frequently on the show.
PJ VOGT: It's also
like, I know it
from listening to
other podcasts,
where I feel like
the podcasts I like,
I have a relationship with
the host where they're
like a friend, in that
I get annoyed with them,
where I'm like, ah, you're doing
the thing again, or whatever.
I think it's a kind of intimacy.
It's just a very weird
kind of intimacy,
because it's mostly one-way.
I mean, not totally, but yeah.
SPEAKER 1: Yeah, it's
pretty much one-sided.
You know, people are
hearing your voices.
I mean, something I always
think about with podcasts
is I listen to them on
headphones most of the time,
so it's like the host's voice
is inside my head, which
is very intimate.
PJ VOGT: I don't
think there's anything
like that in terms of intimacy.
I guess sometimes I feel
that way reading a book.
You're just spending so much
time in another person's
imagination.
But yeah, it's strange.
It's very strange.
And I don't think the
strangeness really goes away.
I still feel that as a listener.
Yeah.
ALEX GOLDMAN: One of
my favorite things
about listening to podcasts
is when you can hear the room.
Like, some podcasts
that I listen
to that are recorded at home,
when you can hear their cats
or their roommates
coming and going, or--
PJ VOGT: You're a creep.
ALEX GOLDMAN: What?
I mean, usually they
stop to note it.
PJ VOGT: What podcasts are you
listening to where you hear--
ALEX GOLDMAN: They do
that on "Chapo Trap House"
all the time.
And then on "Comedy
Bang Bang," where
the engineer is in the room,
and occasionally they'll
be like, what?
There was one not too long
ago where the engineer
was obviously watching football,
and accidentally started
turning the sound on on the
football game he was watching.
And they laid into
him for 15 minutes,
and it was so
satisfying and so funny.
I just love-- that
is the thing that
feels truly intimate to me.
Like, yes, they're in my head,
but I'm also in their house
or in their studio.
Like, I'm there.
PJ VOGT: Yeah.
SPEAKER 1: One of the ways
that you guys will sometimes
structure episodes
is that one of you
or another one of the
producers reports the story,
and then you bring
it into the studio
to tell the other
person about it.
How authentic is
that sort of sense
of freshness and surprise?
Because if you're doing it
that way, I always wonder,
what about collaborating
on the reporting process?
ALEX GOLDMAN: It's
very authentic,
and it's such a pain in the ass.
PJ VOGT: It's so annoying.
ALEX GOLDMAN: You have no idea.
SPEAKER 1: So I
have to go report
this one entirely without PJ.
See you in three months.
PJ VOGT: Yeah.
I mean, we will--
I know that Alex is
working on two stories
that I don't know
anything about.
The other thing is that we'll--
the thing that is constructed
about those conversations
is oftentimes it will
be two or three of them,
and presented as one.
So sometimes-- we
call it a dump.
And Alex, he'll fill me in on
the first half of the story
he's reported, and so then we
have my authentic reactions
and surprise.
I can contribute ideas.
But then he goes off
and does more stuff
that he can't tell me about.
ALEX GOLDMAN: But the dump
also really, a lot of times,
helps sharpen the idea, and
helps direct my reporting.
So we'll do a dump, and
then we'll be like, well,
the questions you
ask, because you
are the surrogate
for the listener,
are the questions that help
me figure out, oh, well, I
should follow this path,
because it's obviously
very interesting.
PJ VOGT: Yeah.
I mean, the "I'm
going to tell you
about a thing you don't
know" format is definitely
a venerable radio format.
I think what is
different about us
is that we really do try to
preserve surprise and not
know about it.
It's such a pain in the ass.
ALEX GOLDMAN: We sit
in the same office.
So to do that, we actually--
one of us has to leave the room,
or--
it's usually with our
executive producer, Tim.
So we will go to another
office and be like,
let's map this out.
This is what I'm
going to tell him.
PJ VOGT: But it's cool
because you do get--
it means that you'll get--
if you were able to
tell me what to ask,
I would ask different
things, and it would
be a more predictable story.
And some of the fun
we've had with stuff
is just being pushed in a
direction that was like,
do you really want to know
more about that part of it?
But it can be really helpful.
ALEX GOLDMAN: Yeah, definitely.
SPEAKER 1: I also want to ask
about a particular episode that
was a very different format,
which was the call-in episode.
So, I don't know,
a few months ago--
ALEX GOLDMAN: Yeah,
it was November.
PJ VOGT: It was November?
SPEAKER 1: November.
PJ VOGT: But we
recorded it in October.
ALEX GOLDMAN: We
recorded it in October,
and we posted it
the end of November.
SPEAKER 1: So in
October, you started
announcing on social media
and in the "Reply All"
newsletter and
whatnot that you were
going to be having
a 48-hour call-in,
48 hours straight through, where
you'd put out the phone number,
post the phone number, ask
people to spread the phone
number to people who
don't know the show,
and that it was just sort
of routed to your phones,
wherever you were,
for 48 hours straight.
OK, so before we get into
why these pained sighs,
where did the idea
for this come from?
Why did you want to do this?
ALEX GOLDMAN: It came
from Tim Howard, right?
PJ VOGT: No, it came from me.
ALEX GOLDMAN: It
came from PJ, right?
PJ VOGT: We get excited
about doing things where it's
like, we're not going to know--
we're going to try an
idea where we won't even
know what it is until we do it.
We did an episode
a year before where
it was just a day in New York.
And so it seemed like that.
I thought it would
be funny if we just
were a call-in show for a day.
It just seemed funny.
ALEX GOLDMAN: PJ
was the one who was
like, it has to be 48 hours.
24 hours is too easy.
PJ VOGT: I thought making
it hard would upset Alex.
And then he wasn't upset by
it and thought it was fine.
But I proposed it, so I
couldn't get out of it.
Yeah, it was not--
the why of it-- it wasn't--
it was poorly conceived.
SPEAKER 1: OK,
and so it's ironic
that you're the one who proposed
the 48 hours, because things
that we learned
from the episode,
in case you haven't
heard it, is day
one was your anniversary
with your girlfriend.
PJ VOGT: Yes.
SPEAKER 1: That was a good one.
And so 24 hours was
going to be too easy.
How far into the 48
hours did you last?
PJ VOGT: I first bailed--
ALEX GOLDMAN: About 11:00 PM.
PJ VOGT: No, it was before that.
I mean, because there was
two hours where I was like,
I'm not going to
talk to anybody.
I'll pick up the phone,
but I won't talk.
ALEX GOLDMAN: Oh, right.
So if we're going
solely on that moment,
he bailed about six hours in.
PJ VOGT: Yeah.
And then I slept the first
night, and Alex didn't.
And then I was awake
for the second day.
Took a little siesta during
the evening of the second day.
And then Alex finally slept
the night of the second day.
And I was on duty
for that night.
But yeah, I did not
equip myself very well.
That was a time where I
heard from a lot of listeners
that were like, I don't
like you because you're
a big-talking wimp.
And I was like, that's true.
I am a big-talking wimp.
SPEAKER 1: Alex, did
having a baby prepare you
for the weird sleep schedule?
ALEX GOLDMAN: No.
SPEAKER 1: No?
PJ VOGT: She means your son.
ALEX GOLDMAN: No.
No, it didn't.
I mean, he's been
sleeping through the night
now for a year and a half.
So that did not
prepare me at all.
Knowing that it
was going to happen
prepared me, because I was
like, oh, well, maybe I
should get a good night's
sleep and get ready to do this.
PJ also knew that it
was going to happen.
PJ VOGT: Didn't get
a good night's sleep.
ALEX GOLDMAN: No.
Didn't work out as well for him.
Yeah, it was fun, though.
I'd do it again.
Want to do it again?
PJ VOGT: Not really, no.
Maybe.
Yeah, it gave us the thing
we were hoping for, though,
which is--
I don't know.
For the most part, our
show is pretty structured,
and we know how to
make it at this point,
and we have different segments
that we don't know what's
going to happen in
them, but we know
it's going to start with
this kind of question,
and it's going to
be about 15 minutes.
We're going to talk
to three people.
And the cool thing
about the call-in show
was that it kind of revealed
itself to us as it happened.
Like, there were
thematic throughlines
that were happening
in some of the calls.
And there were things that were
funny that started to repeat.
And you felt like you were
watching something form,
instead of forming something
in a real intentional way.
There was very little
planning we could do.
And I don't think
we even did some
of the things we
probably could have done
that would have been smart.
ALEX GOLDMAN: There
was one weird response
we got to that was like, why
didn't you guys take shifts?
You could have very
easily done this.
And I was like, the whole point
was like, the design of this
was to break us.
It wasn't like we were like,
let's think of a cool way
to get around to having
to do this hard thing.
The design was, let's
do an impossible thing,
and it'll be funny because
we won't be able to do it.
PJ VOGT: Yeah, we kept talking
about that watching it fail
was going to be the best part.
It was not the best part.
But that was the idea.
SPEAKER 1: What was
the best part of it?
ALEX GOLDMAN: We got some
really amazing, thoughtful calls
from people who--
I was just shocked at the trust
people put in us, honestly.
PJ VOGT: Yeah.
I think one thing
that we didn't know
we wanted that
ended up happening
was we had a lot of
phone conversations
with strangers that felt
like phone conversations
you would have talking
to a friend late at night
when you're driving
somewhere, like that intimacy.
And I don't think we knew to
hope that that would happen,
but it really did.
For me, the second night,
talking to people--
also it was cool because if
you're awake long enough,
you're getting people who are
getting dressed in Germany
on their way to work.
And it felt really nice.
It felt very strange
and very nice.
Very tiring.
ALEX GOLDMAN: Definitely tiring.
PJ VOGT: The other best part was
Alex on the first night just,
like, lost it.
It was just like listening to
someone with space madness.
It was really enjoyable.
SPEAKER 1: If you
haven't heard it,
it's a really lovely episode.
One of my favorite things is the
cheat that you used to sleep,
which is to ask the other
person to not hang up.
ALEX GOLDMAN: Yeah, but
the guy didn't do it.
PJ VOGT: There was this
whole thing where Alex
was negotiating with this bro.
ALEX GOLDMAN: I'm like, listen.
I'm not going to make it, but if
you can just put your phone up
to a speaker or something.
And he's like, my
girlfriend already thinks
this phone call is super weird.
It's 1:00 in the morning here.
And then there were
two people on the line
because we were having a
technical difficulty where
two people were on the line.
And the other guy was
like, come on, dude!
Do it!
PJ VOGT: But he wouldn't do it.
ALEX GOLDMAN: But that's
because he was at the airport.
He was about to get on a plane.
PJ VOGT: Oh, yeah.
ALEX GOLDMAN: And
then I was like, no.
It's OK.
You can't force him to do it.
I'll keep going.
PJ VOGT: You asked those guys
where they were from, like,
three times.
ALEX GOLDMAN: Yeah, well.
I think it's important
to add, at this point,
you were sleeping soundly.
PJ VOGT: Oh, it was great.
Yeah.
I watched "Your
Crazy Ex-Girlfriend."
It was really good.
SPEAKER 1: You were awake?
PJ VOGT: Well, I couldn't
fall asleep right away.
ALEX GOLDMAN: I'm just
learning this now.
I'm not happy.
SPEAKER 1: I'm sorry.
I'm sorry that I
made that happen.
We're going to open things
up to questions in a minute.
So we have microphones
in both aisles.
So if you'd like to ask a
question, please line up.
But I'll just ask
one more question.
What podcasts do
you guys listen to?
You already mentioned
"Comedy Bang Bang."
What other podcasts do you love?
Who's making cool stuff?
ALEX GOLDMAN: Go ahead.
PJ VOGT: I feel like when
people ask that, I always
wish I was listening
to things that were
more obscure or avant-garde.
I listen to "This American Life"
and "Radiolab" and "StartUp".
I listen to the big
shows that people like.
We both like comedy
podcasts, like, a lot lot.
Like, "You Made It Weird,"
which is sort of a much goofier
"WTF."
"Comedy Bang Bang."
Alex really loves this show
called "The Bone Zone."
ALEX GOLDMAN: Why do you have
to say it like that, man?
PJ VOGT: It's not a great title.
ALEX GOLDMAN: It's way better--
I mean, that's true.
It's not great.
PJ VOGT: What were you going
to say it's better than?
ALEX GOLDMAN: Nothing.
I feel like so much of
my podcast listening
is time that I can
tune in and out.
I like things where I
don't have to be focused
on it the whole time,
because I focus so much
on my own podcasts.
So yes, comedy
podcasts, especially
improv comedy podcasts.
"Hello From the Magic
Tavern" I like a lot.
"How Did This Get Made?"
I like the "Gilmore Guys."
Oh, yeah.
All right.
I have really enjoyed "There
Goes the Neighborhood,"
the WNYC podcast
about gentrification
in New York City.
PJ VOGT: It's really good.
SPEAKER 1: It's really good.
ALEX GOLDMAN: And
then actually KQED
just did an atrociously-named
podcast called "Q'ed Up."
Q apostrophe E-D Up,
because it's from KQED.
PJ VOGT: Oh, OK.
Yeah, that could be better.
ALEX GOLDMAN: But
it is about the way
that San Francisco has priced
out so many people that they've
moved to suburbs, and how the
previously white suburbs have
dealt with--
PJ VOGT: It's such
a weird dystopia
that we're making
every city unlivable
but then making really
good podcasts about it.
ALEX GOLDMAN: Well, you know,
whatever works, I guess.
PJ VOGT: I don't
know that that works.
ALEX GOLDMAN: Yeah,
the world is terrible,
but it's nice that
it's documented.
PJ VOGT: But the
podcasts are great.
ALEX GOLDMAN: Yeah.
So those are both really good.
I don't know.
"The Bone Zone" is good, guys.
SPEAKER 1: What is
"The Bone Zone" about?
PJ VOGT: What is "The
Bone Zone" about, Alex?
SPEAKER 1: I mean, how
good is that title?
Is it accurate?
ALEX GOLDMAN: It's
two guys who just--
PJ VOGT: It's "The Jerky Boys."
ALEX GOLDMAN: It's a little
better than "The Jerky Boys."
It's two guys who make
prank phone calls.
PJ VOGT: They call Hugo Boss
and try to boss people around.
ALEX GOLDMAN: They call Hugo
Boss and try and boss people
around.
They call Red Lobster
and say, do you guys
have the lobster
on lobster anymore?
And when they say
no, they're like,
can I get you to put one lobster
on top of another lobster?
I'm trying to think
of some other ones.
They called a bunch of
places for a while asking
if Tony Rice was there, and when
they'd say no, they'd be like,
you just got pranked!
PJ VOGT: That's funny.
ALEX GOLDMAN:
Yeah, really funny.
Definitely not for all tastes.
Definitely not good.
But I like it.
SPEAKER 1: That works.
All right.
Let's open it up to questions.
We'll start over here.
AUDIENCE: Hi.
Thank you for coming.
PJ VOGT: Yeah, thank you.
AUDIENCE: So you host
a successful podcast
on a growing network.
What's become easier for you
to do as Gimlet has grown
and your show remains
successful and popular?
And what's become
harder for you to do?
PJ VOGT: Well, I
mean, just resources,
in terms of traveling to do
a story, people understanding
that we're a thing that's
worth an hour of their time
if we want to interview them.
We have more people,
which means we
can try weirder stuff, because
things can fail and that's OK,
which really wasn't
true in the beginning.
I've lately been feeling
that feeling of--
I keep thinking
about "The Simpsons"
and how, if you're around long
enough, how often you come up
with what you think is a
good idea, then you're like,
oh, we did that.
Like, we've had that question.
I feel we're lucky that we're
covering the internet, which
is not a stable, boring place.
But I've felt that
anxiety, lately, more.
ALEX GOLDMAN: Me, too.
Yeah, we're almost
100 episodes in.
And every once in
a while, we'll have
a really fallow
period and PJ will
be like, we're out of stories.
And then a month
later, he'll be like,
we're never going to
run out of stories.
PJ VOGT: Yeah, we're out
of stories right now.
So that's the prism that
I'm answering that question
through.
I honestly think I won't
have an idea again.
We'll see.
AUDIENCE: Thank you.
PJ VOGT: Thanks.
AUDIENCE: So thanks for coming.
I did want to say,
Sruthi Pinnamaneni
is amazing and awesome.
ALEX GOLDMAN: Yes.
PJ VOGT: Yes, she is.
AUDIENCE: Too bad
she's not here.
And what I wanted to ask you is,
so since you started the show,
it seems like memes
have taken on a kind
of political significance
and a relevance
that they didn't
necessarily have before.
They've become more powerful,
more disturbing in many ways.
And I'm wondering, how has
that changed how you approach
a segment like "Yes Yes No"?
PJ VOGT: Yeah, we were
talking about this recently.
I mean, weirdly,
in some ways, it
makes that segment
work less well,
only because the sort of
toxic, weird, dark stuff
that was on the internet is
now so much in the culture
that a lot of these memes
just aren't obscure.
It makes it more fun when
it works, because it just
feels like internet culture
is culture, rather than being
something to the side.
And so even though it's
not fun to be talking
about the wacky origins
of some neo-Nazi in-joke,
from a reporting standpoint, or
from a journalistic standpoint,
it matters now, or sometimes it
matters, and that feels good.
It feels like, oh,
it's actually--
there's a utility to explaining
this, instead of just
celebrating something
for being obscure.
ALEX GOLDMAN: I agree with him.
AUDIENCE: Hey.
I was wondering how
similar or different
your work is on
podcasts to what it
was when you were doing radio.
PJ VOGT: Yeah.
What would you say?
ALEX GOLDMAN: It's
totally different.
I can't think of
anything that is similar.
PJ VOGT: There are some
things that are similar.
ALEX GOLDMAN: Can you tell me?
PJ VOGT: We interview people.
We edit those interviews down.
We write script in between it
to explain and contextualize
what they say.
Our stories tend to
be five to 30 minutes.
We don't have to worry about--
like, we did a story that was
about experimenting with LSD.
We couldn't have done
that on the radio.
ALEX GOLDMAN: We can swear.
PJ VOGT: We can swear.
ALEX GOLDMAN: We don't have
to worry about the clock.
Things can be as long or as
short as we want them to be.
PJ VOGT: Which is so oppressive
and constant in radio.
Like, where really,
you're like, this
has to be 12 and a half minutes.
And if there's 15
interesting minutes,
they're going to
have to come out.
And if there's seven
interesting minutes,
you're going to have to pad it.
That's a very real,
ceaseless problem in radio,
that we just don't--
the thing we have
to deal with is
we need a story that can
carry over an ad break.
That's the hardest.
ALEX GOLDMAN: And a lot of
times, that is a real problem.
PJ VOGT: Yeah, but
it's not-- like,
that's the one thing
that it gives you.
No, podcasting is great.
Also, the people that
listen to the show
are more likely to have
found it because they
want to hear it, versus
I was listening to NPR
and then this crap
came on, which
is like, it forces you to--
on podcasting, you can
trust that your audience has
heard you before and
that they're game.
ALEX GOLDMAN: Right.
AUDIENCE: Thanks.
PJ VOGT: Thank you.
AUDIENCE: So "This
American Life"
was probably the
first radio show
that I listened
to that would just
tell stories that were
so compelling that I'd
have to sit in my car when I got
into my driveway after school,
just to finish
listening to them.
And I was wondering, having
sort of started there
as an intern, PJ, to what
extent did your experience
there influence the
way that you approach
a story for "Reply All"?
Because I definitely
kind of get some
of the same magic feelings.
PJ VOGT: Well, thank you.
I mean, for me, that
place is church.
Like, the values that they have,
and the craft that they have,
it's a standard that I think
about pretty constantly.
I think that there
is a mode of story
that I'll report
on "Reply All" that
feels like me doing my best to
do an homage to what they do.
Like, the Brinkley story
we just did, it's written--
it doesn't rely on Alex
and I's conversation.
Those stories feel
more to their thing.
Tim, who is our editor and
executive producer, just
the brilliant person
on staff, he's
always pushing us out of it.
He's always pushing for
more of me and Alex.
Or he's like, stop
writing so much.
He hates writing.
I love writing.
But I still think--
I still just listen
to that show,
and I'm just like, how
do you guys do this?
It's so crazy.
They're so good, and they
do so many different things,
and they do them so well.
It's not fair.
Yeah.
AUDIENCE: Hey, guys.
So being at a technology
company, and more specifically,
a technology company
that has its hands
pretty deeply into
advertising, it's hard for me
not to look at podcasting
through kind of a technology
lens.
And a lot of times,
I look at podcasts,
and I think about how
primitive of a technology
it is with things like
prerecorded ad breaks
and I don't know what type of
listener attribution statistics
you're able to get
and things like that.
PJ VOGT: None.
ALEX GOLDMAN: Not true.
PJ VOGT: Very little.
AUDIENCE: You know, like,
aside from the number
of subscribers on iTunes.
And so I love podcasts
because I love the content.
And I've at times wondered,
is the primitive technology
holding back content
producers from maximizing
their revenue streams in
a way that might threaten
this thing that I really enjoy?
ALEX GOLDMAN: It's
shuffling along.
It's getting better.
We dynamically insert
the ads in our show now.
So you can yank them out.
We can resell ads
on our back catalog.
We have that
capability, which is
huge in terms of monetization.
With respect to being able
to chart our listeners,
right now it's like our ratings
are probably about as accurate
as Nielsen ratings.
Not like we have
Nielsen families,
but we know who downloads it.
Or we know when it is
streamed to someone.
So we get a number of people
who have downloaded it,
downloaded and streamed it, and
that's total downloads for us.
We don't know--
I mean, we also are on
Spotify, which has an actual--
which has pretty
detailed information
about when people start
listening and stop listening.
But other than that, we
don't have that information.
However, I am told that
in the next couple weeks,
we will be able to tell if
anyone is listening on iTunes,
at what point do
they stop listening,
which is very exciting.
But if people are only listening
for the first four or five
minutes, that's
kind of terrifying.
But yeah, I think that slowly,
the technology is catching up.
I don't know what that means
for the future of RSS feeds
and things like that,
but slow, very slowly.
I think mostly since "Serial"
blew up, people were like,
oh, there's market here.
Should probably figure out
ways to better monetize this.
And once that happens,
dynamic ad insertion and stuff
like that started happening.
So slowly but surely.
Part of what's nice
about them, though,
is that they are just these
files that once you get them
on your phone, they're
yours, and you can fast
forward and stop and pick
it up wherever you want.
AUDIENCE: Works on the subway.
ALEX GOLDMAN: Right.
Exactly.
So there is something to be said
for the primitiveness of them.
SPEAKER 1: In terms of the
development of monetization,
but also the
information that you're
able to get about
your listeners,
to what extent does that bridge
the divide between podcasts
that are either coming
out of big public radio
organizations or
big podcast networks
versus independent podcasters?
Because one of the great
things about podcasting
is that you just
need a microphone
and a tiny bit of hosting,
and you can have one.
But there's also
these big institutions
that continue to grow.
PJ VOGT: I don't think--
as far as I can
tell, there's nothing
about the incremental
stuff going forward
that should make that
divide bigger or change it.
I think everybody--
basically, it
amounts to big distributors
having better analytics.
Everybody should have that.
I do, though--
there's a part of me,
and maybe it's
just superstitious,
that thinks that the fact that
it's primitive is good for it,
that somehow, I don't know what
I think is going to happen,
but sometimes automation
is bad for content.
Like, standardized
banner ads haven't
been great for writing
on the internet.
It's probably just me
being superstitious.
It's good right now.
And so I'm waiting
for it to get bad.
And every change, I'm like,
this is going to be it.
This is going to
ruin everything.
It's probably not going
to ruin everything.
ALEX GOLDMAN: I have no idea.
SPEAKER 1: Fair enough.
AUDIENCE: Hi.
I had a question
about, you've said
that you have a lot of
stories in various stages
kind of on the shelf
waiting to be revisited
or being worked on
at the same time.
I was wondering,
what's that kind
of trigger that, OK, this
is ready to get in a slate,
this is ready to
go on the schedule?
And also, have you bumped things
in order to get something out
in a timely way?
I'm thinking about
the Pepe the Frog.
PJ VOGT: Yeah.
Yeah, we have.
I mean, the trigger, oftentimes,
really, is desperation.
Like, that thing is at 60%,
but everything else is at zero.
Sometimes it might mean--
sometimes it's just
about getting a person.
Like, this will only be good--
we talk about proximity
with our stories,
which can mean a lot of things.
But if you're talking about
an event that happened,
do you have somebody
who was there,
or just somebody who talked
to somebody who was there?
And sometimes you'll get
an extra proximal step,
which helps.
Sometimes it might just be that
you didn't know what it meant,
and now you feel like you have
an idea about the question
you're actually asking,
or the conclusion you
think you've got.
Sometimes they're
just brain changes.
ALEX GOLDMAN: Or Tim,
who PJ previously
described as a genius, will
be like, what if we try x?
What if instead of
interviewing this person,
what if you talked to this
person about their dog?
PJ VOGT: Or like with
Sruthi, Sruthi just
did this story a few weeks ago.
ALEX GOLDMAN: The ALS story?
PJ VOGT: Yeah,
the first one, she
was profiling this guy who had a
really different way of looking
for an ALS cure.
And the story was like, it
was in that sort of like,
almost ready to
go, but something--
we thought it was
something was missing.
And then we had an
edit, and I suggested,
I was like, I think we're
making it too complicated.
Like, there was a version of
the story that was sort of like,
is what he's doing
right or wrong?
Because he was
working with patients
and checking out
their obscure cure
to see if they could be good.
And we were having this
whole moral dilemma.
But everybody in the room
on the editorial staff
was like, we like this guy.
It doesn't seem--
we can't credibly
make the other side
of this argument.
And realizing we didn't
care about the argument
we were telling, and
realizing, oh, it's
just a story about this guy.
We had the story about the guy.
We had been having
trouble finding
someone who could be
a good critic of him,
because they didn't exist.
So sometimes it's
simplifying, and Tim
is really good at
being like, you
think your story is
these seven things.
It's that thing.
Just take the interesting
part and get out of here.
ALEX GOLDMAN: And that
story was originally
going to run the
week that we ran
that episode about Pizzagate,
because Pizzagate just
became a thing.
So I was like-- and
Sruthi was like,
I'm having trouble with this.
I'm really grappling
with this story.
Can you come up with something?
And I was like, eh.
And then we did that "Yes Yes
No" about Pizzagate, and then
the following day, a huge--
we were like, that will be
the first half of the show.
And then the following day,
just that crazy explosion
took place, and, well,
when I say crazy explosion,
I mean a guy walked into
the pizza place with a gun.
So a guy walked into a
pizza place with a gun
and suddenly it was
like an entire episode.
So yes, things
move around a lot.
SPEAKER 1: We've got time
for one more quick question.
AUDIENCE: All right.
It's a tough one.
No, I'm just kidding.
What's with all the
love for Matt Lieber?
PJ VOGT: Oh, man.
He's just particularly
when Gimlet started,
it was like, he was
the only person who
had any understanding of--
he does so many things
that are so good,
and they're so hard to describe.
And so that's where
that comes from.
But he's just a
grown-up who makes sure
that everything is
going to be OK tomorrow,
and there's going
to be a budget,
and nothing is
going to disappear.
ALEX GOLDMAN: Well, also, when
there were only five people
at the company, we
were like, let's just
put everybody in the credits.
And Matt was like,
don't put me in.
PJ VOGT: Don't put me in.
ALEX GOLDMAN:
Don't put me in it.
So we were like, OK,
let's put him in.
And let's continue
to put him in.
And let's put him in more
elaborately every single time.
PJ VOGT: I think he
likes it at this point.
ALEX GOLDMAN: He
said that it's done--
he actually said this to me.
I'm putting him on
blast right now.
He's like, it's done wonders
for my personal brand.
[LAUGHTER]
PJ VOGT: What a nerd.
ALEX GOLDMAN: Such a dork.
SPEAKER 1: And on that
note, Alex and PJ,
thank you guys so much.
ALEX GOLDMAN: Thanks
for having us.
[APPLAUSE]
