JUDY WOODRUFF: To help us make sense of a
week that brought protesters to the -- into
the streets in more than 700 American cities
and towns, the analysis of Shields and Brooks.
That's syndicated columnist Mark Shields and
New York Times columnist David Brooks.
So, hello to both of you.
What about these protesters, Mark? I have
just been talking with Mayor Garcetti of Los
Angeles about it, but, as we said, 700 cities
and towns across the country, thousands and
thousands of people in the streets. It started
out about George Floyd. It's become, I think
it's fair to say, something much bigger than
that.
What do you make of it?
MARK SHIELDS: Judy, it's quite unlike anything
I have ever seen.
The -- most protests here in Washington involve
the usual suspects on both sides. Those are
committed partisans, in some cases, zealots,
who show up regularly.
This is remarkable in its composition. It's
people who are not protesters, who are not
political activists. At the same time, even
though it's spawned by, inspired by the tragic
death of George Floyd, it is not specifically
racial. There's a very large white composition
in it.
And that, to me, is rather remarkable, the
reach of it. It's reached not only the major
cities, but small towns worldwide. I think
this is of enormous significance. And it can't
be of little consolation to George Floyd's
family and loved ones, but his death is having
-- his murder is having an enormous impact
on this country. And it will not be just transitory.
I think it will be permanent.
JUDY WOODRUFF: You think it will -- David,
do you think this is a different moment? We
have seen moments of protest. We have seen
police-involved killings of black men.
What's different this time?
DAVID BROOKS: I would say it's a combination
of things.
I sort of think of it as a hurricane that's
happening in an earthquake. The earthquake
started in 2014 with Ferguson, with a lot
of terrorist killings, then with the election
of Donald Trump. And we saw ravines open up
in our society. We saw divides in politics.
We saw racial divides, economic divides, obviously.
And into this comes first a pandemic, just
pouring water and exposing all the divides,
and then this killing, this murder, which
exposes them more. And then you get this generational
turnover. You have had a generation of people
under 35 who've seen the financial crisis,
who've seen a bit of the war in Iraq maybe,
but who've seen nothing on global warming.
And so this is a generation that is fed up.
And, frankly, a lot of people in the African-American
community are fed up. The word I keep hearing
is exhausted.
And so I do think, when you calculate the
depth of the ravines that are being exposed,
with a generational change, with a sense of
America finally turning to race as maybe the
central storyline in our history or our story
right now, these are just big, epic shifts.
And I do think it's like one of those big
shifts that happen periodically in American
history, '68 or 1890 or 1830. And I think
we're in the middle of something -- I agree
with Mark. I think it's not just a moment.
It's a climactic shift.
JUDY WOODRUFF: Mark, a shift.
Will it lead to something distinctly different,
though, from what we have today? Because these
protesters, as we have just been discussing,
they want police departments defunded, or
they want budgets cut. They want real change.
They want more African-Americans elected to
office, and many, many other demands about
-- around education, around housing, around
communities.
Are those things really going to change?
MARK SHIELDS: Well, Judy, I think there's
demands, and there's demands.
I think Mayor Garcetti made a good point that
both the African-American community and the
police need each other. They truly do. I mean,
African-Americans disproportionately live
in high-crime areas. And they do want an engaged,
principled and activist work -- police force
working to preserve peace and order in their
community.
But I think we're far beyond the prayers and
thoughts, reaction. I think there's an awakening
in this country to the fact that African-Americans,
people of color have been treated -- and it's
irrefutable -- been treated differently in
law enforcement, and unfairly.
I don't think there's any question about that.
I do find it encouraging that two institutions
that have been sort of sidelined, it seems,
in our country that were so much involved
in the American civil rights movement and
were -- played principle roles this week.
I thought Bishop Budde of the Episcopal Church
here in Washington spoke up so forcefully
about the photo-op using and abusing her church.
Archbishop Wilton Gregory, the African-American
Catholic archbishop of Washington, D.C., spoke
out strenuously, emphatically against using
religious places and symbols to exploit political
advantage, especially when the message isn't
one of inclusiveness or justice.
So -- and the United States military -- it's
no accident that the United States military,
the most integrated institution in our society,
that the words of people like General Martin
Dempsey and Admiral Mike McMullen -- Mike
Mullen, to add to Mike Hayden, Stanley McChrystal,
and Admiral McRaven, as well as, of course,
General Mattis, you know, and the reaction
of the military, I think, was encouraging.
And so I'm hopeful.
JUDY WOODRUFF: David, I do want to ask you
both about the president and bring in the
use of the military.
But, just quickly, do you think there will
be real change coming out of what we're seeing?
DAVID BROOKS: Yes, I look at the polls.
And we never used to get polls where it was
50 -- where it was above 55 percent for anything.
We were completely an evenly divided country.
And now we had a poll, PBS/Marist poll, 67
percent disapproving of the way Donald Trump
is reacting to this moment, 67 percent reaction
to the lockdown.
We had 67, 77 percent. Again and over the
course of the last three months, we have had
polls in the 60s and 70s. It looks to me like
we're a less divided country than they were,
Joe Biden opening up now an eight-point lead
on the average polls.
So, I mean, the dumb thing to say is, we're
moving left. And the pandemic and this event
have just underlined the inequalities in America.
And whether you like it or not, I just think
that's the reality, if you look at the evidence.
JUDY WOODRUFF: And, David, let's -- let me
turn you to what Mark brought up. And that
is the president invoking the military, I
mean, having the military, armed people out
in the streets, troops clearing the streets
forcefully to make way, so that he could walk
across the area, the -- Lafayette Square,
to hold the Bible in front of St. John's Church.
A lot of pushback, as Mark reminded us, from
former military officials. Even -- we're even
seeing current military leaders pull back.
Is this a moment of turn for this president,
do you think?
DAVID BROOKS: I do. I mentioned the polling.
But, listen, he's been a bully for a long
time, but he was a bully over Twitter, and
maybe he was a bully to the press. But now
he's using U.S. troops to be a bully.
I think what set General Mattis off was just
watching the military, which is a fine, unprofessional
and unpoliticized -- I mean, professional,
but unpoliticized organization, suddenly turned
into a prop in a campaign video. And I think
that turned his stomach, as it should turn
all our stomachs.
But I think what mystifies me -- and it goes
back to what you were talking about with Mayor
Garcetti -- is, you have a president who's
taken this authoritarian line of domination,
be dominant, unleash vicious dogs and dangerous
weapons.
And that's not only just talk anymore. And
it swings through the Republican Party and
Senator Tom Cotton's tweets about no quarter
given. We're going to dominate our fellow
citizens, as if they are enemy.
And then I think it bleeds down to the police
and the videos we have already seen tonight.
It's a theme that is coming from the top,
from the White House, a theme of brutalism,
of mental brutalism. And it affects people.
And what we have seen coming out of the White
House has been a more dangerous contagion
than even with all the outrages of the past.
JUDY WOODRUFF: Mark, David raised the -- it's
term, and the president used it again today.
We need to dominate, he said, even as they
are now announcing they're going to pull uniformed
military out of the streets of Washington.
But the orders are there. I mean, we know
what happened this week. We know that the
president talked about calling out the National
Guard. He urged governors to use the National
Guard. He said they were weak, would look
like fools if they didn't.
And we're left with the reminders of this.
MARK SHIELDS: This is the world of Donald
Trump, to be very blunt about it.
Admiral Mattis may have put it best at the
Al Smith Dinner in New York last fall, which
I'm sure didn't escape the president's attention,
when he said, I earned my spurs. I, General
Mattis, earned my spurs in battle, and Donald
Trump earned his spurs in a doctor's letter.
And that's the toughness, that's sort of the
phony toughness of Donald Trump, the swagger.
When his number and his chance came up to
serve and to get tough, he, of course, ran
and scurried personally. But he's somebody
who wants to bully other people.
And he does not -- I guess what bothers me
more than anything else -- I saw him today
in act that Jack Reed, the senator from Rhode
Island, a very respected member of the Senate
Armed Services Committee, has called pretty
and preposterous, pulling 9,500 American troops
out of Germany to -- why? Out of spite and
out of pettiness, because Mrs. Merkel declined
his invitation to be part of the photo-op
of the G7 at Camp David next month, because
-- on the very legitimate grounds of coronavirus.
So, I mean this is -- the president, he does
not understand the military. It's kind of
a crazy swagger, John Wayne movie version
of it. Most military people -- I just miss
John McCain so much. If John McCain were alive
today, it would be scorching and scalding,
the rhetoric he would be directing at this
president of his own party.
JUDY WOODRUFF: And, David, as we wrap up our
conversation, what hope can we take into the
weekend?
DAVID BROOKS: Well, listen, these rallies,
most of the cops have been great. They have
been fine. They have been dancing with people.
They have been kneeling with people. They
have been talking to people.
We cover the extremes. And that's what we
do. It's where the conflict is, and maybe
it's where the (AUDIO GAP) history is. But
most of the protests, we have all seen them.
They have been calm and peaceful. They have
been dedicated to policy. They have been dedicated
to fundamental change. And they have been
warm.
And even amidst the anger, there's comradeship
there. And most of the cops have done their
job. And so we shouldn't take the extremes
for what is going on in the middle, which
is pretty damn good.
JUDY WOODRUFF: On that note, David Brooks,
Mark Shields, thank you.
MARK SHIELDS: Judy.
JUDY WOODRUFF: And, to all of you, please
join us tonight, "Race Matters: America in
Crisis." It is a "PBS NewsHour" prime-time
special. We will hear from powerful voices
on inequality, policing, and the African-American
experience.
Tune in at 9:00 Eastern on your local PBS
station or online at PBS.org/NewsHour.
