[MUSIC PLAYING]
SHEETHAL SHOBAWALE:
Nikole Hannah-Jones
is an award-winning,
investigative reporter
covering racial injustice for
the "New York Times Magazine."
She's spent the last
five years investigating
how official policy
creates and maintains
racial segregation in
American public schools.
Nikole's reporting has won
several national awards,
including the Peabody Award,
Polk Award, the National
Magazine Award.
She was named
Journalist of the Year
by the National Association
of Black Journalists in 2015
and named to The Root
in both 2015 and 2016.
She is also a 2017 New
American Emerson fellow.
She's in the process of writing
a book entitled "The Problem
We All Live With" to be
published on the One World
imprint of Penguin Random House.
Last year, Nikole helped
found the Ida B. Wells
Society for Investigative
Reporting, a training
and mentorship
organization geared
toward increasing the number
of investigative reporters
of color.
I'm so proud to be here as a
mom of two young kids of color,
trying to choose a
school for my kids.
And I'm so glad that we
have allies in the audience,
so thank you.
Nikole?
[APPLAUSE]
So first, we're--
I'm sorry.
I didn't even introduce myself.
I'm Sheethal Shobawale.
I work in research here on the
performance ads marketing team.
And I've been here
almost seven years.
So this is my first
fireside chat,
so send me the good vibes.
And before we start, just to put
this conversation in context,
we'd like to share a
video that WNYC produced.
[VIDEO PLAYBACK]
- Everybody needs
a dream, but dreams
don't come true by themselves.
You have to help them come true.
All right.
You ready?
- I was bussed to
very white schools.
I always knew I was not
going to put my daughter
in that environment.
I did not expect I
would also put her
in a segregated environment.
How do your friends
get to school?
Dante lives across the
street, doesn't he?
Where's Dante?
- [INAUDIBLE] lives
across the street.
- Oh, Jacoby rides the bus.
- Morning, Najya.
- Was Sam cranky this morning?
- Um, he was OK.
- [INAUDIBLE].
- I don't talk to her about
that we intentionally chose
the segregated school for her.
I don't want her to notice.
It was not an easy decision.
I've spent my career chronicling
the way the segregated schools
harm black children.
But at the same time, this is
what public education to me is.
This is the one place
where the masses can mix.
This is the one
place where we're not
supposed to all going
into our own corners
with people who are
exactly like us.
My daughter doesn't know that
there's a class difference
between her and her classmates.
She will as she gets
older, I'm sure.
But right now, these
are just her friends.
And I think that that's
the most important thing
that I can give her
while also trying
to even the playing
field a bit for the kids
in the school whose parents
work hard every day,
but they work jobs that
they don't have status.
They don't have access to power.
They can't write a 10,000-word
piece in the "New York Times
Magazine" about
their experience.
But I can do that.
And my presence in the
school changes the status
for those children too.
I hoped, I think,
like many parents,
that I would be able to
put her in an integrated--
truly integrated
school environment.
But in New York
City, your choices
are often polar opposites.
If those of us who have choice
and privilege and some power
keep avoiding
schools, then we have
accepted that this two-tiered
system is inevitable,
and I don't accept that.
[MUSIC- KEVIN MACLEOD,
 "REVIVAL"]
[END PLAYBACK]
SHEETHAL SHOBAWALE: Great.
So that video really
resonated with me,
as I have been trying to look
at my neighborhood schools.
I've been visiting schools
for the last six months.
And it's dancing
and overwhelming.
So could you talk a little
bit about that process for you
personally, how you
went through that?
NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES:
Picking a school?
So I've been writing
about school segregation
from my very first
job in journalism.
I started in journalism
in 2003, and I
started covering a
majority black school
system in the South that was
also very heavily segregated.
And so I knew very well
what school segregation
was doing to black children,
and also Latino children.
Then I had my own child,
and then when she was one,
we moved to New York City.
And I found myself having to
navigate an educational system
in the most segregated large
school system in the country.
And so I decided
pretty early that I
was going to put her in one
of the segregated schools
that I write about.
I did not tell my husband that.
[LAUGHTER]
So part of what I talk about
in the piece is how I told him
that this is what
I wanted to do,
and the conversations
that we had,
and the fears that he
had as a black parent,
both of us coming from
working class backgrounds,
having worked ourselves
into the middle class,
and feeling like one of the
advantages we can guarantee
our child is a good education.
But also strongly,
strongly believing
in public schools, and the
concept of public schools
as being this great equalizer.
So I felt that I could not
write about the abandonment
of these children in
segregated schools,
and then do the same thing
when it came down to my choice.
I think one of the things
that has bothered me
through all of these years
are progressive people who
say they believe in
public schools, who
say they believe in equality, as
long as it's an abstract thing.
But then when it actually
comes to their own personal
decisions, they
make decisions that
actually uphold inequality,
and I didn't want to do that.
And so it came down to, one,
I usually win in my household.
[LAUGHTER]
Just kidding, Faraji.
Kind of.
But I asked him, you know,
come to the schools with me.
Let's tour the schools.
Because I think a
lot of parents look
at the demographics
of the school,
they look at the test scores,
and they automatically
write those schools
off, assuming
that there's not learning
happening in those schools.
And so we went to
the schools, and then
ultimately, he agreed that
this was the right thing to do.
And understanding that when you
have two educated parents, when
you have parents who
make a middle class
income, the risk and
the sacrifice for us
is actually quite small.
And maybe we're
sacrificing, and maybe not.
But I think the biggest
fear is, well, maybe
my kid won't get into Harvard.
I don't think that that's
what public schools are for,
and that's not my biggest
concern for my child.
My biggest concern is that
my child is a good person,
that she goes to a
school that teaches her
not just how to perform on
a test, but about her world,
and about justice
and being kind,
and to be part of this larger
community, not this bubble
of a community of privilege.
To teach her how to
be a good citizen.
So for us, anything that she
couldn't get academically
in the school, we
could get for her.
But the sacrifice of poor
black and brown children
is whether they're actually
going to get an education
or not, whether they're
going to actually get access
to the type of instruction
and teaching and thinking
that will allow them to
graduate in the first place,
go on to college,
succeed in college.
That's just a very
different sacrifice,
and I felt like my sacrifice
was actually very small.
But also just morally, it
was the right thing to do.
SHEETHAL SHOBAWALE: So
I can relate to this.
I mean, you should come to my
house and talk to my husband,
because we have been spending
hours discussing this.
I mean, in my personal--
so in my life,
I went to public
school, and my husband
went to a very fancy
private school.
And he says to me,
that school changed
the trajectory of my life.
My name is Olatokumbo, and
my dad is half Nigerian.
And well, you know, I'm
middle class, but you know,
this school, the guidance
that I got has now
made me this person I am.
And I still struggle with it.
And actually now I'm
feeling terrible about it,
because in some ways, I
finally have decided now--
I'm deciding between
private and public schools,
and it's very
challenging for parents.
So I would love
for you to, like,
talk about how you
would tell people,
like, what-- like, when
they make the decision,
what should they consider
in their neighborhood
school and the community
around [INAUDIBLE]?
I'm in a rapidly
gentrifying neighborhood.
NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES: Right.
I can't tell parents what
to do, though I kind of
am telling parents--
[LAUGHTER]
And believe me, I
get a lot of emails
from parents who are like, we're
in the thick of this right now.
Can you tell me the
right thing to do?
And on the one hand, I'm
like, if you've read my work,
you know what I'm going
to tell you to do.
And I'm not--
I'm not pretending this is easy.
It is unnatural as
a parent to feel
like you're putting your
child in a situation that's
not giving that child
every advantage.
I think what my work is
trying to do is recenter,
do we actually still
believe in a common good?
Do we actually still
believe in the public part
of public schools?
Because we have
allowed the language
of the market, the
language of capitalism
to infiltrate public schools
where now it's about shopping.
I deserve to shop for
a good public school.
But what that then
means is that children
stuck in segregated, struggling
schools are deserving of that
too.
And if you're deciding
between public and private,
we are a capitalist country,
and I can't tell you
that if you want to
pay for an education,
you can pay for an education.
But if you're one of these
proud public school parents,
but you are only
public school parents
if you can find very particular
schools that advantage
your children within a
publicly funded system,
I think that that's
morally wrong.
I actually think that
that's antithetical to what
public schools are
supposed to be.
So to me, I think
that if we are going
to say that this
system is unjust,
we can't at the
same time do things
that maintain an unjust system.
And that's going to
require sacrifice.
What we want is to still
get-- and we talked
about this on the phone, right?
We want-- or sorry,
Google Hangout.
[LAUGHTER]
We want to simultaneously
advantage our own children,
but have equality
for other children.
Those two forces
oppose each other,
because you can't at once
have advantage and equality.
Equality means that you're
going to-- if you have a lot,
you're going to have to
give a little bit of that
up so that someone
who has a little
has the same thing as you.
So I think we need to figure
out, do we really believe that?
Is that what we really want?
And then if we do, then
it can't just be about,
I love the idea of this,
but I really need my child
to get into Harvard.
I think it has to be about
understanding that even when
I have gone into the
segregated school,
I still have every advantage
over those families.
This is like the one thing
that I can give up, give
A little bit of.
And I just think we
need to either say,
we're willing to
give things up, or we
need to stop pretending that we
actually care about inequality.
Because while it is systemic,
while we have inherited
a system, and many
of us in here didn't
have to do a single thing
to create the system,
but we do do things
that sustain the system.
And the only way that the
system stops being what it is
is if individual people make
decisions towards justice.
And there's no
middle ground there.
There just isn't.
And I think that's
very uncomfortable,
because people want--
you know, they want to be able
to go to a march for, like,
women's equality and
feel good about that,
or come hear me talk, which
I often feel is torture,
because I'm not letting
people off the hook when
I'm talking to people.
And then you feel like
that's your penance.
Like, you have done enough.
And I'm saying, there
are tens of thousands
of kids in this the who
have been promised something
that we're not giving them.
And it's not just
enough to say you care.
You actually have
to do something.
SHEETHAL SHOBAWALE:
And so how do you that?
So I talk to a lot
of people about this.
And on my block, for
example, every kid
goes to a different school.
And I started my
block association,
and I love my block,
and I started it
because I wanted
a community, and I
believe in it takes a village.
But how do you get,
like, everybody
to sort of make that choice?
Like, how do you
persuade and convince?
Because it does
take that village,
but it also takes,
like, the community.
Not just individual
choices, but everybody's
choice individually together,
if that makes sense.
NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES: Yeah.
I mean, I think that-- so
there's a couple things.
For those of you who
haven't read the piece,
I decided to put my daughter
in a segregated school,
and then our segregated
school very quickly
becomes embroiled in
an integration battle.
Because like many
places in Brooklyn,
the neighborhood is gentrified.
And right down the street
from my daughter's school,
less than a mile away was a
predominately white, affluent
school that was
bursting from the seams.
Because in the
city, once a school
attracts a core amount
of white parents,
every white parent in that area
wants to go to that school.
Meanwhile, my daughter's
school was half empty,
because her attendance
zone was just
drawn around a housing project.
So it was half empty, entirely
black and Latino, and about 95%
low income.
So the school district
decides that it's
going to rezone a lot of those
kids from the white school
into our school, and
those parents fought it.
Fought it tooth and nail.
Said lots of really ugly
things about the children
in the school and the community.
And this helped
me to then frame--
what people say to me is, I want
to put my kid in that school,
but I just can't
be the only one.
So they can't do
something individually.
But then they also fight
structural change as well.
Because this rezoning
was a structural change.
If those parents
came, that school
would actually have
immediately turned
to a half white,
half poverty school.
And they fought that too.
So I think we're not
willing to do either, which
is support structural
changes for equality
or do things individually.
So when parents ask what
they can do, I mean,
you know the answer, right?
I mean, one, you have
to go into your, like--
if you buy into a neighborhood,
go into the school.
Enroll your children
in that school.
Because once those of us who
have choice and privilege
go into a school
like that, it makes
it much harder for
our neighbors who
say, I could never do that, it's
too scary, it's too dangerous,
to continue to say that, because
you can now say, I'm in there.
My kid is just fine.
But then we also have to fight
for structural inequalities.
When the school
district is doing
things that would make
things more equal,
we don't fight those things.
We support them.
And we actually could push
the DOE to do things more.
And I don't see that either.
I mean, the thing that
people find most surprising
is that we have the
most segregated school
system in the
country, large school
system, and the third-most
segregated neighborhoods
in this country.
And these are-- you
know, we all in the city
like to think of ourselves
as very progressive,
liberal people who are
sustaining a tremendous amount
of inequality.
And that equality
does not exist,
because white people in the
city don't want it to exist.
If white people in the
city wanted integration,
we would have integration.
So I mean, that's
what you have to do.
We have to go from
saying we want equality
as a conceptual thing
and actually doing
things that bring that about.
SHEETHAL SHOBAWALE:
And then so you
mentioned that your daughter's
school has all these--
has a great principal, has a
lot of learning happening there.
But when I went to
visit some schools,
I didn't see that same thing.
And so it's very localized.
So the question is,
how do you do that?
I mean, it requires,
like, a village,
I always say, to make
those structural changes.
And there's a lot of
systematic issues,
I think, in the
Department of Education
that makes this
also challenging.
NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES: Yeah.
I mean, one, I think it's
difficult for parents
to assess what's
happening in school.
That's why we use shorthand.
We look at test scores
and we look at the race
of the kids in the school.
I can assess better,
because I've been covering
education for a long time.
But the average parent
goes into a school,
and you're looking at
things, and you actually
can't tell how much learning
is necessarily going on.
I think we can tell,
does it look orderly?
That sort of thing.
So I think that is a
challenge for parents.
But here's-- and this is--
let me say, I know that I am
asking for a hard thing, right?
I know if white parents
could just go into a school,
and everything about the
school was functioning
at the high
capacity, segregation
would not be a problem, right?
Segregation is a problem
because once we have warehoused
black and Latino
children in a school,
we don't do certain things.
They don't get
the best teachers.
They don't get the
best administrators.
They don't have
the best resources.
So we're saying that the
only way we will enroll
our own children
in those schools
is if those schools
are already great,
well-functioning
schools, then segregation
wouldn't be a problem.
That's what I'm saying.
I'm saying we are going to
have to give something up.
But the difference is, once--
and I've covered education
all across this country,
and what I can
tell you for a fact
is the reason why Dr. King, the
NAACP fought for integration
was not because there's
something magical that happens
to black kids when they
sit next to white kids,
that suddenly they get
smarter and suddenly they
want to learn.
What magically happens
is people in power start
to care about what
happens to those kids,
because they're sitting
next to white kids.
And things that we allow for
black and brown children,
we never allow for white
kids in this country.
So once these parents
go into these schools,
the entire dynamic of
the school changes.
Things that are
allowed when there's
no white kids in the
school are no longer
allowed in that school.
When PSA-- because of
it's overcrowdedness,
the school district
finally decided
that it wasn't going to
allow 50 kindergarten kids.
They put them on a wait list.
50 kids in a system
of one million kids.
I cannot tell you how
many elected officials--
so you had city councilmen,
you had state assemblymen,
you had the comptroller.
All of these people were
coming to every single meeting
those parents had
about 50 kids getting
wait-listed in a
system of a million.
That tells you how
power works in this city
and in this country, that
those parents whose kids still
had a spot in my
daughter's school, which
is a perfectly fine public
school, could demand that.
I don't know what the
poor, low-income parents
in the Farragut Houses whose
children go to my daughter's
school, I don't know
what they could do that
could bring elected
officials from Albany
to attend every meeting that
they're holding on an issue.
That is what integration
does, is it gets people--
it ties the face of white
children and black children
together.
And that is how black children
are brown children end up
getting an equal education.
And as long as we're able
to keep them over there--
I mean, I remember
when I first started
writing about school
segregation, some
of my coworkers, because every--
not every-- lots of white folks,
when they moved to New York,
they moved to Brooklyn,
they moved to Park Slope.
And they moved to Park
Slope because they're told,
this is where you move
if you want to get
to the good public schools.
And they're talking
about the PS 321.
And they were telling me how,
like, these schools can't
be segregated in New York City.
Like, my daughter's
school is so diverse.
And I'm like, yeah, because your
daughter's school looks nothing
like most of the
schools in the city.
And that's how
segregation works,
is it makes it invisible what
it is like for other kids.
It makes it invisible
what's happening
in other neighborhoods.
Because when your school
looks like the United Nations,
you can then delude
yourself into believing
that that's the experience
of every other kid.
But in a school system that is
heavily segregated, in order
for some of these schools
to look beautifully diverse,
that means all the
rest of the schools
have to be entirely black
and Latino and entirely poor.
That's a really long answer,
but it's a really long answer
to say, we're not going
to fix this problem by not
making a personal sacrifice.
And honestly, I don't
think the sacrifice should
be black and Latino middle class
parents who ourselves have just
worked ourselves out of being
working class or poor who
generationally have no wealth
because of this history,
or this country's history
of discrimination.
The burden should not be on
us, because we didn't create
segregation, and we actually
cannot undo segregation.
But with that said, we
also can't shirk our duties
to our communities either.
SHEETHAL SHOBAWALE: And so I
think what you're saying is,
we all should be allies.
I would say that's something
that I come to this.
As allies, if we can
give up something--
NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES: I think
we have to be more than allies.
We have to be actors.
I think there's too many
allies and not enough actors.
And I'm just going to-- you
know, I think that's true.
I think one of the
things I hear people say
is, well, I can't put
my child in that school,
but I promise I'll
support that school.
But they don't, right?
Because we all have to
be invested in things
to care about them.
And we say we care
about these kids,
but I don't think
we show that we do.
And so I don't think it's
enough to ally ourselves
with the right cause.
I think we have to act.
SHEETHAL SHOBAWALE: What about--
they have committees now,
like parent committees
where they're not PTA.
I mean more just broadly--
the Board of Ed has--
now I'm blanking on the name--
NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES:
Community Education Councils?
SHEETHAL SHOBAWALE:
Yeah, exactly.
The councils, yes.
Is that one way for people
to get involved and act?
Or I mean--
NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES:
Yeah, for sure.
SHEETHAL SHOBAWALE:
any suggestions,
real concrete
suggestions for people
if they want to get involved?
NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES: Yeah.
So we have an unusual--
I don't know how
many of you guys
have kids or kids in the New
York City public schools,
but is a bit of an unusual
system where there's no school
board.
There's no board of education.
It's divided into a bunch of
small educational districts.
And actually, the
way it operates
comes directly out
of the failed efforts
to integrate the city's
schools in the 1960s.
And black and Latino
parents who had
been fighting for integration
finally got tired of it
and instead asked for local
control of their own schools.
So these Community Education
Councils crop up around that.
And that is basically
the way that communities
can interact with
the school system is
through these community
education councils.
And the one thing that they
have power over zoning.
And zoning is one of the most
important tools for equity.
Because just like my
daughter's school,
you can take two communities
that look very different,
and you can zone them
for the same schools.
So that's a great
way that people can
advocate for systemic equality.
But what we're
finding in the city is
when the DOE tries
to zone for equity,
parents, white parents fight it.
You know, they're fighting
on the Upper West Side
about this thing right now.
They fought in Dumbo about
this thing right now.
So I think that is the problem.
What the people who run
the New York City public
schools have learned is this
is what you don't touch.
That's why they don't want
to talk about integration,
they don't want to put
forth plans for integration,
because they are very
nervous about losing
the small white
population that's
left in the public
schools, and they
are afraid that this is not
what white parents want.
When white parents
are demanding this,
the school system will
act in a different way,
but they're not
demanding it right now.
SHEETHAL SHOBAWALE:
So on that point,
could you share a little bit
more about the broader work
that you've done
outside of New York?
I know we're all
in New York here,
but I would love to
hear more about--
like, I heard the
Fresh Air podcast which
you talked about Missouri.
And I'd love to hear just other
states and other things that
are going on that you are
learning about and writing
about.
NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES: I mean,
what's both good and bad--
I always say bad for humanity,
good for journalism is--
[LAUGHTER]
--is that school segregation
is a national scourge.
There are very, very
few school districts
that are well-integrated,
and most of them
are actually in the South.
So I did, like, my
first big investigation
in school resegregation, and was
based in Tuscaloosa, Alabama.
Which, because of
federal court orders
to integrate its
schools, had actually
achieved perfect
numerical integration.
And the way that
that happened was
there was a black high school
and a white high school,
and a black middle school
and a white middle school,
and the judge merged them.
So if you were a student from
K through-- or excuse me,
6th through 12th
grade in Tuscaloosa,
you went to the same
school, no matter what.
Or else you had to pay
for private school.
And then when that court
order was released,
then the school district
took immediate steps
to resegregate the schools and
created an entire feeder system
from kindergarten to 12th
grade, where these kids would
only ever attend entirely back
and entirely poor schools.
And what's interesting about the
law is if you had at one point
been found guilty of violating
the Constitution by legally
segregating kids and
you're under a court order,
the judges can make you
do all kinds of things
to make sure that those
schools are integrated.
But as soon as you're released
from those court orders,
you can literally do
anything that you want,
as long as you don't say you're
doing it to be discriminatory.
So even though they
created this entire feeder
system of all black
schools, and everyone
knew that's what they were
doing, because they never said,
we're doing this to
discriminate against black kids,
it's perfectly legal.
And that's what we see
all across the country.
The main way that
schools are segregated
is either between
school districts--
so New York City has a very
small white student population
because of white flight.
And so most of the suburban
districts are heavily white,
and the cities aren't.
So in the North,
most segregation
is actually not
within a district,
but between school districts,
even though in New York City,
our actual school district
is very segregated too.
And in the South, most of the
districts were county-wide.
So when the courts were
ordering them to integrate,
you only had one choice,
which is integrate or pay
for private school.
Because you couldn't just move--
I mean, I don't know.
How many school districts
are in Westchester County?
Like 24 or something like that?
In the South, there
was one per county.
So you couldn't
just move a couple
of miles up the road
to a white community
and avoid integration.
But in the North,
that's largely the way
that it was accomplished.
So I've written about school
segregation in the South.
I've written about
it in Missouri.
I've written about
it in the North.
And for black children, the
Northeast and the Midwest
are the absolute worst places
for school segregation.
And not the South,
because the South
was forced to integrate
by the courts,
and it did so when
it was forced to.
In the North, there
was very little
court-ordered integration, and
we've just refused to do it.
SHEETHAL SHOBAWALE: And aren't
some of those orders expiring?
NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES: Yeah,
most of them are expired now.
Or not expired, but school
districts can go to the courts
and get them released.
And the kind of sad and
ironic thing about it
is they can get them released
without really having
integrated.
They can just say
that they tried hard,
and courts will release them.
SHEETHAL SHOBAWALE:
So I want to make sure
that you guys have time
for your own questions,
so please come to the
mic if you have some.
Oh, hey.
Good.
But before I do that,
who's doing it well?
Like you mentioned in
the South, and you talked
about bussing in your video.
And school choice in New
York City, I feel to me,
now just moves people around.
You know, and so people
aren't going to school
with the folks in
their neighborhood,
and I do think
there's something to--
there's something really,
like, magical about the kids
on the same block going
to the same school.
But because of this
segregation of our communities,
we have this issue that we
need to move people around,
and then choice actually
helps with that, sort of.
But I would love to hear
your thoughts on this.
NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES: So
one, in New York City,
school choice doesn't tend
to help with integration.
What school choice does is it
allows white and middle class
parents who are in neighborhoods
with segregated schools
to get away from those schools.
And if you look at the
best schools in the city,
they are disproportionately
white and Asian.
And black and
Latino kids, who are
the majority of kids
in this district,
are not getting access to them.
So choice has this, like,
nice veneer of, it's
an equal system.
It allows everyone access
to all of these schools.
But as some of you
may or may not know,
the best schools-- so
specialized high schools.
You have to take a single test.
A test that the
Department of Education
admits that what's
taught on that test
is not taught in
most of the schools
that black and
Latino kids go to.
So they are testing
on something,
but it's not actually-- a
curriculum that's not actually
being taught.
SHEETHAL SHOBAWALE: I feel
the same way about the G&T.
NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES: Right.
G&T also allows segregation
within integrated schools.
So G&T is very heavily
white and Latino,
even if the schools
are-- or, excuse me.
White and Asian, even if the
schools are black and Latino.
Many of the best middle
schools and high schools,
you have to apply.
You have to apply in
person during school hours.
You have to submit a portfolio.
And then you get selected
into these schools.
So that's not equal
choice, particularly when
we know we have a very
segregated, unequal educational
system where kids are
coming out of high schools
where they have--
they don't know how
to build a portfolio.
No one's prepared them
to build a portfolio.
Their parents are
working hourly jobs
where if you're forcing them
to apply in person at 2 o'clock
in the afternoon, that means
they're losing that $8 an hour
that they need to
pay their kids,
because they're
making poverty wages.
So choice here
has largely served
to benefit white
and middle class,
but gives a veneer
of equality when
that's not how it functions.
And what happens is that most
low-income black and Latino
schools end up going to
their neighborhood schools
by default, because they
are not getting access
to those other schools, and
they stay in their neighborhood
schools, which are segregated
and often low-performing.
SHEETHAL SHOBAWALE: I'd
like to take some questions
from the audience.
I'll start right here.
AUDIENCE: Hi there.
Thank you so much for coming
to speak with us today.
I really enjoyed
reading your article,
and it caused me to talk about
it with a lot of my friends.
And I was pretty shocked to
hear very liberal people say,
it's not my place to hear
about school segregation.
I'm not a parent.
And you know, I feel like
people who don't have kids also
have a stake in the game, right?
Because we might become
parents, and in 10 years--
you know, personally,
I don't want
to face a decision
like you had to face.
I don't want to
live in this system.
But it does bring a question.
What can childless
people do, right?
In some ways, it seems
like maybe we're better--
it's easier to fight
systemic inequality
if we don't have a child
who's affected by it.
But what can be done,
especially in New York City?
Thank you.
NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES: Yeah.
So one, I think--
this is what I'm saying.
Like, do we believe
in a common good?
Because a common good means
I don't fight for things only
because it will benefit me.
I fight for things
because I think
it is for the good
of our country,
and it is for the
good of my neighbors.
One does not have to
be a woman to fight
for women's rights
and liberation,
and we expect that men
will join this struggle,
even though it may or may
not affect them directly.
It's the same thing with
Black Lives Matter protesters.
Like, it can't just be black
folks protesting injustice
against black Americans.
Other people should have
a stake in this as well.
So I think what someone who
doesn't have children would do
is the same thing that
someone who does have children
should do, except you
don't have a child
to enroll in the schools.
But it is systemic.
So are we pushing--
I gave an example a few weeks
ago when I was on the stage
with City Councilman Brad
Lander, who's been advocating
for integration to a degree.
And I said, you know, when
the Muslim ban was implemented
and you saw these crowds of
people going out to LaGuardia--
and that was
amazing to see that.
And I said, what would
it have been like
if we ever saw crowds
of people descending
on City Hall and the
Department of Education,
demanding integration and
equality for our children?
That we can muster this
when we don't feel like--
you have nothing
to lose by saying,
let people into this country.
Why can't we muster that same
amount of protest and pushing
for school integration and
equality that we do for that?
And those are things that we
can do as community members
and say, go to the Community
Education Council meetings
and advocate for zoning
that is more equitable.
Press our elected
leaders that this
is something that should be
at the top of their agenda.
But you think, we have Mayor
Bill de Blasio, married
to a black woman,
biracial children,
runs on the Tale of
Two Cities and refuses
to talk about school
integration except
to say that homeowners buy
into certain neighborhoods
to go to certain
schools, and we don't
have the right to disrupt that.
Right?
That is a problem.
But he has no pressure
to say anything else.
And that's what people who
truly believe in this issue have
to make it, so that you cannot
be a politician in the city
and not talk about this issue.
AUDIENCE: Thank you.
AUDIENCE: What's your
perspective on vouchers broadly
and the DeVos
nomination specifically?
NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES: Oh, lord.
AUDIENCE: And also--
[LAUGHTER]
--and also what's the
difference between school choice
and vouchers?
NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES: So school
choice is a big umbrella term,
and it can mean a lot of things.
It can mean choice of
traditional public school.
So school choice
in New York City
is within traditional
schools, I can
choose which school
I put my child in,
or I can choose charter schools.
So charter schools are
considered school choice,
and vouchers are also
considered school choice.
What school choice
says is that schools
need to compete for children
and parents have the right
to shop for schools.
And this feels very
natural to us now,
but this is actually
not a natural thing.
That is not what public
educations were founded to do.
What public education
was founded to do
it is a socialist
institution by nature,
which says that we are going
to care for all children,
no matter where they came from.
And within the
system, every school
is going to offer
the same thing.
And it should be a
good, basic education,
but someone can't get
the Cadillac and someone
gets the Pinto, right?
Like, that's not what public
education is supposed to be,
but that is what school
choice advocates,
is that it's a market, and
schools should have to compete.
One can understand,
though, capitalism
is not a system of morality.
And capitalism by its nature
means some people will win,
and some people will lose.
And so when you infuse market
terminology and thinking
into public schools,
you are then
acknowledging that within
a publicly funded system,
there will be
winners and losers.
And the winners and losers
are always the same.
Never changed in the
history of this country.
So my thoughts on vouchers.
One, I believe in
public schools.
I believe that when
we spend public funds,
those public funds should
go to public schools.
Why?
One, because private schools
can choose to take you or not.
Private schools
can discriminate.
Now they're not supposed
to discriminate on race,
but they can decide
for whatever reason
that they don't want
to take children.
Because you have a
disability and they
don't want to accommodate
you, and under federal law,
they don't have to
accommodate you.
Public schools have to
accommodate all disabilities.
They can decide they don't
like your background.
They can decide--
for whatever reason.
So I have a fundamental
problem with using public money
for organizations that operate
privately and can discriminate
against children.
I think that you should not--
there's also not the same
accountability or transparency.
The public system has to
tell me, who works for you?
What's your budget?
What did you spend on this?
What are the test scores?
Private institutions
don't have to have
that same accountability.
But I think my biggest issue
in general with school choice
and most school reform
is it's premised
on providing an escape
hatch for few kids
that we think are worthy.
And I think all
children are worthy.
And I don't think
that, one, we should
be draining public resources
to give a couple kids access
to a great education
and the rest of the kids
are left behind with even
fewer resources than before.
Two-part question.
AUDIENCE: Short
follow-up to that.
So even if you
eliminated school choice,
there's still a capitalist
dimension to the way
schools operate simply by, I
guess, zoning or geography,
right?
Like, I grew up in a small
suburb bordering Chicago.
And in my suburb, we had
amazing public schools.
And on the other side of the
border, they were not as good.
And there was no
school choice there.
It was simply,
like, where you were
able to rent or buy property.
So it's capitalist
in that sense, right?
It's based on where
you can afford to live.
How does that operate?
Like, is it through local taxes?
Like, I think
there's, like, just
some fundamental
structural knowledge that
needs to be shared.
Like, how is it possible that
one public school system here
can be not as good as
the one adjacent to it?
Is it through tax dollars?
Like, investment?
Like--
NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES: Yeah,
it's a couple of things.
AUDIENCE: Financially,
what's happened?
NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES: So
school funding is largely
based on property taxes.
And the Supreme Court has ruled
that children are not entitled
to an equally funded education.
So what often happens is even
though property taxes tend
to be lower in the
suburbs, property values
tend to be a lot higher.
So cities-- I can give
you an example of Detroit.
Detroit has the most
unequal school boundaries
of any place in the country.
So you can cross 8
Mile, and immediately
go into one of the
wealthiest school
districts in the country.
But the tax rate in
Detroit is much higher.
So over and over again, citizens
in Detroit who are much lower
income-- and as you know,
the housing market there,
housing stock is worth nothing--
keep taxing themselves, trying
to raise money for schools.
But high taxes on
nothing produces nothing.
Suburbs, on the other hand,
can have a very low tax rate,
but when property
values-- you know,
the median house is $500,000,
it raises a lot of capital.
So that's a huge part of it.
It's also, look at who
lives in the cities
and who lives in the suburbs.
So in Detroit, you
have a population
that's largely been abandoned
by the middle class.
Low education,
low literacy rate,
they're earning low wages.
And you know, the white
suburb has very high-educated,
high-wage-earning parents.
So when you consolidate all
those kids in one school,
and then all kids living in
poverty in one school district,
then you're also going to get a
great deal of inequality there.
I mean, that's why I
argue for integration,
because it's the only way
that you can even things out.
And the solutions to the problem
have to be fairly radical.
My book is actually based--
the narrative of my
book is based in Detroit
because it was the site of
the Supreme Court lawsuit
ruling, this landmark ruling
where the Supreme Court ruled
that the white suburbs
had to integrate
with the city of Detroit.
That they had played a role
in causing the segregation,
and because there were no
white kids left in Detroit
to integrate with, you
couldn't get integration
without including the suburbs.
And the Supreme Court
struck that down.
So because of that, it has
become very, very difficult
to integrate in the
Northeast and the Midwest
where you have urban,
high-poverty cities surrounded
by affluent white suburbs.
So the solution would
have to be either end
the school funding
structure that
allows cities to fund
their own schools,
or you break down
all of these borders
and you have county-wide
school systems.
Which, I think is the
right thing to do.
It's also very not
politically palatable.
AUDIENCE: And have
you linked this
to the history of redlining?
NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES: Yeah.
I mean, that is--
the story of Detroit
is the story of redlining.
Things that we count as truism,
like that a white neighborhood
is going to be a
wealthier neighborhood,
or that white people are
going to be more likely to be
able to move into Park Slope
and to neighborhoods where they
can afford 321, it's
because of a legacy
of housing discrimination.
The reason Detroit is all
black and the suburbs are white
is because of housing
discrimination.
It is because black
Americans were
barred from these
communities when
the federal government--
so the reason
so many white Americans
were able to buy homes
was after the Great Depression,
the federal government
decided to start
insuring home loans
so you no longer had to
put 75% down on a house.
You could put 20%
down on a house.
And this is how most white
Americans got wealth.
98% of those loans went
to white Americans.
The federal government
actually created redlining,
and did not insure loans
in black neighborhoods.
So that wealth is
cumulative over time.
And it doesn't mean
that white people
haven't worked for things.
But what it means is they've
gotten a huge huge head start
the black Americans didn't get.
So what the census data
shows is that if you
are black and middle
class, you are
more likely to live in a
high-poverty neighborhood
than if you're white and poor.
And that is because
of a wealth gap.
That is because black Americans
have income, but no wealth.
So we might make the same
thing, but your family wealth
allows you to buy a
house in Park Slope,
and I have no family wealth, so
I'm renting in Bed-Stuy, right?
Like, that's the difference.
So all of those
things are related.
That's why my good
friend Ta-Nehisi
argues for reparations, right?
Is because we had--
in the 1960s, we passed civil
rights law that say, OK.
From here on out, you can
no longer discriminate.
But we never made up for
that past discrimination.
And if you don't make up for
that past discrimination, then
people just--
then inequality just
replicates itself.
AUDIENCE: I'll be honest.
I hadn't even heard of
redlining until I started
reading Ta-Nehisi Coates.
NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES: Yes.
Yeah.
It's one of those things where
you see all this inequality,
but we've never
learned in school,
or no one's ever taught
us how it's created.
So then that's how you
get the myth of, well,
if they just worked harder,
if they just wanted it,
they would have it.
And we don't understand that
so much of this was created,
and it was created
by our government.
Oh, hi.
Am I answering too long?
SHEETHAL SHOBAWALE: No.
This is great.
This is amazing.
I mean, I would also
add, what I noticed
in my search was the
opportunity to raise money,
you know, for the PTA and--
NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES: Of course.
SHEETHAL SHOBAWALE:
I mean, that was,
like-- it was a huge difference.
You could have a gala, or
you could have a bake sale.
Like, there was a huge
difference in the opportunity
to get that extra money.
NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES: Because
there actually is, like,
federal--
there's federal
funding available
to high-poverty schools
called Title I dollars.
And so it understands
that just giving--
if you're going to have a
school where every kid is poor,
just giving that school
the same thing as a school
where most kids are rich
is not going to be enough.
The problem is that
little bit of money
can't outdo the power,
the financial power
of white middle class folks to
raise money for their schools.
So at my daughter's school,
our PTA in a good year
would raise $2,000.
As you all know, some
schools, including PSA,
can raise hundreds of
thousands of dollars a year,
and some schools raise a
million dollars a year.
And that all pays for all
of the extra things for kids
who already have everything.
And one of the things that I
heard over and over from PSA
parents was, we can
donate $20,000 to the PTA,
because we're still
saving $20,000 by not
paying for private school.
So they are getting--
we have allowed a system where
certain parents are getting
a private school education
on the public dime,
and then they are able
to infuse those resources
into the school, because for
them, it's still a savings.
And that is why they
don't want integration.
They don't want to give that up.
They don't-- and
they threaten, right?
What they say is, if you force
our kids into these schools,
we will pick up and put
our kid in private school
or move to Jersey.
And so they have
this kind of ransom
over the school district.
Because I understand
why school officials--
you don't want a system that's
entirely black and Latino,
entirely poor.
You do need to hold onto
enough of the base of people
who have power and
influence in the city.
You want them in the
schools, because we've
seen other places where there's
a complete white withdrawal
from public schools.
Then when you need to raise
a tax for your school,
they vote it down, because their
kids aren't in the schools,
right?
You lose that base of support
that's necessary for all kids.
So I understand that.
But it just creates
a very unfair system
where you can fund the schools
the same with tax dollars,
but when you can raise a
million dollars for your school,
you can do a lot
for your school.
SHEETHAL SHOBAWALE: Yeah.
Please.
NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES: Hi.
AUDIENCE: Hi.
So I first just wanted to thank
you for being here, and also
for your article.
I read it when it came
out, and it's like--
just one of the most, like,
devastating and impactful
things I read.
NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES: I'm
glad it was devastating.
That was my plan.
[LAUGHTER]
That was my plan.
AUDIENCE: Honestly, just
to see, like, the promise
and the progress that was
being made and was, like,
consciously undone is something
that's really stuck with me,
and I think of it often.
So I'm a mom of a kindergartner
in a New York City
public school, in
District 14 Williamsburg.
It's a very progressive area.
It's one that has changed
radically in, like,
the last five years.
Like, you know, the parents
I know who have 10-year-olds,
they sent their kids to
schools in the East Village
or they send them
to private school.
Now everybody goes
to public school.
You know, all of the moms,
all the yuppie moms, I mean,
everyone's in the
local public schools.
And you know, one of the
things that I've noticed was--
I want to call
out in particular,
there's a school called
Brooklyn Arbor, PS 414,
that's the hardest to get into.
And it is still primarily
black and Latina.
But what happened a few
years ago was a new principal
came in, and she sort of
sounded all the right notes
for a progressive community
about being progressive.
[INAUDIBLE], like, a lot of
social-emotional education,
and they started a rooftop
garden and recycling,
and sort of hit all
the notes that, you
know, this community of parents
want to hear these days,
that affluent
parents want to hear.
In fact, the highest performing
schools in our district
are underenrolled in
terms of test scores,
because that's not what people
are looking for right now.
So really, with
very little money,
they became the most
sought after school.
They are integrated.
Whatever lack of
integration exists
is not for, like, lack
of white parents wanting
to send their kids there.
It's because they're
not zoned for it,
and it's just very
hard to get into.
It's a smaller school.
So I'm just wondering
if you think--
and to contrast that,
there's a school, like,
PS 17 that is in the middle
of the most affluent area,
but everyone avoids.
Nobody will send
their kids there,
because the administration
is seen as sort of closed
and doesn't open up to
community and new suggestions
and new ideas.
So I wonder if you think
there's any promise
or if it's worth,
like, trying to sort
of press at the
district level or the--
or I don't even know
what level you approach
for the sort of, like,
reforms that may actually
be good for kids in terms
of a progressive education,
and it might also draw more
different kinds of families.
NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES: Yeah.
I think-- oh, man.
I think we just have to
be really careful about--
[SIGH]
I think that principals-- and
I would imagine a lot of these
principals in these schools
are black and Latino--
feel very protective
of their kids
when white parents come in
with their great new ideas,
and are immediately like,
this school seems good,
but it would be so
much better if you do
the things that, like, we want.
And I hear--
[LAUGHTER]
--I hear this all the
time, where they're like,
oh, we didn't like that
school, because they just
didn't seem open to us.
And I'm like, you can't
just show up one day
and immediately expect that
these administrators, who
have been working with this
population for a long time,
need to-- you know,
because you're
so much more enlightened.
And I think that is
often how it's presented.
I mean, I can tell
you, that battle,
we're having at our
school right now.
This was a school that without
white parents, brought in STEM,
taught Mandarin,
has art, has music.
And then white parents come in,
and they're like, no, no, no.
You should do this.
Even the way you
framed it, right?
Progressive parents.
There are tons of black
progressive parents.
They're not new parents, right?
But it's this privileging that
the benefits of integration
are, like, white
privilege folks are
going to come in
and show you guys,
like, how to do
this the right way.
And so the hardest--
when I was doing this article,
my editor, who I love,
was like, I don't get it.
Like, on the one hand, you're
arguing for integration,
but then you're like--
you're also afraid that
too many white people
are going to come in.
[LAUGHTER]
Right?
And I'm like, yes.
That's exactly right.
[LAUGHTER]
This is not easy.
It's not ever going to be easy.
It's complicated.
It took us-- if you look
at my Twitter handle,
I say that I write
about race from 1619,
which is the year that the
first Africans were brought
in this country to be enslaved.
And this was when we
began implementing
racial caste, which is
140 years before we even
become a country, right?
So this is older than us.
This is embedded in the
DNA of this country.
And we worked very,
very hard to create
the inequality and
the segregation
that we are dealing with now.
We spent 400 years
perfecting it.
We've spent maybe 40 years
trying half-heartedly
to undo it.
And then we somehow
just want it to be easy,
because we just want to
be over with it already.
It's not going to work that way.
When we're putting these
communities and schools
together, it's going to be
tense, it's going to be hard.
It's going to-- like, we're
going to make mistakes.
I'm saying we have
to do it, but it
can't be the folks
who have always
had the privilege
all the time say,
you're so lucky that I'm here.
And now let me tell
you that the last 20
years of you working with
these kids is not good enough.
And the only reason
that white parents
are looking at that
school, which I write about
in my article, is
they already had
to have had a principle
that it worked miracles
with that population to
even make white folks
feel like this is even
an option for their kids.
So that's the
issue, is how do you
go in and understand,
I'm bringing privilege,
I am bringing a lot of
assets to the school,
but not overrun the people
who are already there?
Where they can't necessarily
think about a community garden
when they're just trying
to, like, you know,
get their kids some
food in the morning,
or when they're just trying
to get their kid's reading up.
And they would
love those things,
but that's not going
to be the priority.
And then they fear those
things, because as someone
who's living in
Bed-Stuy and, like,
watching this dizzying
gentrification that's
happening, watching my
neighbors, whom I love,
who will knock on my window
and tell me to move my car,
because I forgot to move
it, being pushed out
of their homes, and then being
told that this is a good thing,
because now the neighborhood's
becoming less poor, well, yes.
But we see these signals, right?
Yo see the bike lanes going
in, and you're like, OK.
[LAUGHTER]
Black folks have always
ridden bikes in Bed-Stuy,
but we didn't have bike lanes.
[LAUGHTER]
You see the dog run
going at our park.
Once again, always had
dogs in the community,
but no one thought we
deserved a dog run.
So it's complicated,
because we want the dog run,
and bike lanes are nice.
But you also
understand that there's
something inherently
wrong that that
doesn't happen until white
people move in, right?
And that, I think--
I mean, even the way you
described Williamsburg.
That progressive, new
part of Williamsburg
is actually a very small
part of Williamsburg.
Most of Williamsburg-- I've
looked at the numbers--
has not flipped.
Still heavily black and Latino,
as are most of the schools.
But if you read my
paper, Williamsburg
doesn't look like the
Williamsburg on the ground.
And I think that's
also the problem.
It's not going to be easy.
It's going to take a
great deal of humility
on people who are used to
getting their way, who are used
to leading, who are used
to having a system cater
to them to say, I'm going
to go in this school,
and I'm just going to
sit back for a while,
and I'm just going to let
my kid be in the school,
and I'm going to
let the parents who
have run the school come to me
when they're ready for help.
That's what it's going to take.
And that's a hard thing to do.
And believe me, as someone
who likes to run everything,
I'm a different
socioeconomic status
from most of the
parents at my school,
and I wrote about
it in the piece,
that even that has been
hard, and our backgrounds
are the same.
So it's not going to be easy,
but it is what we, I think,
are charged with doing.
That was like-- how
long was that answer?
[LAUGHTER]
SHEETHAL SHOBAWALE:
It doesn't matter.
It was amazing.
[LAUGHTER]
AUDIENCE: Thank you for coming.
NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES:
I'll be short.
We can get to--
[LAUGHTER]
AUDIENCE: I'll keep
my question short too.
So what advice would
you give to a parent who
is concerned about that
their children are going
to be challenged when the
segregation gets over,
and the integration comes in?
And now the school
that used to be,
say, higher socioeconomic
status, all of them,
90% of them would
be-- it is now 50-50.
High socioeconomic status,
and on the poor end too.
And the one thing
that I have seen,
even in my relatives' town--
in San Diego, their kid was
about to move to middle school,
and the middle school
had a bigger zone.
So that was-- and
they were worried, oh,
there's another neighborhood
next to us that is not--
that their kids aren't
that's studious.
So I said, what's
the problem then?
Oh, then the whole
classroom changes.
Because right now, all of
them are more studious,
and then in the middle
school, the classroom
is, like, a mix of
from this neighborhood
and that neighborhood.
So then I said, so?
What's the problem?
Oh, they are not
studious enough.
They don't, like, value
education that much.
So I said, but is that
due to that neighborhood?
Or is that just that
you expect that that has
been happening historically?
So what advice would
you give that, hey, it's
actually better for your
children to be in such a school
where it's more of a balance?
And you can go and
change them rather than
be worried about
getting changed,
or whatever you think is bad?
NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES: I mean,
I think you know the answer.
[LAUGHTER]
I mean, it's a real concern.
I don't want to
downplay the concern.
We all want our children
to get a quality education.
We don't want our children to
be harmed by our decisions.
What the data shows
is that white kids--
and I don't know what
race your friends are--
but Asian American kids,
unless they're coming--
Asian American kids, if
they're coming as refugees,
their test scores
and their experience
actually very much mirrors that
of black and Latino students.
But the majority of Asians
in this country are coming--
their parents are coming on an
education visa or a work visa,
or they're already second
or third generation.
The data shows that
their test scores--
if test scores are the
measure, don't go down.
And that actually,
integration is
great for our ability to think
things, to problem solve.
Because as you know, if you're
working with a group of people
where everyone thinks
the same, then you're
all thinking the same way
of how to solve problems.
And it's actually that
diversity that makes us smarter.
I think fear is a hard
thing to overcome.
But I think parents
need to understand,
one, a lot of how well
your kids are going to do,
if you're privileged,
is in the home.
For lower income people,
they're much more
dependent on what's going
to happen in the schools
than in the home.
And your kids are
going to be fine.
I don't want my child
in a bubble, right?
Like, I don't live
in a neighborhood.
I could afford to live
in a neighborhood that's
not low-income.
But this is the real
world, and my child's
not better than her
low-income neighbors.
And they have a lot to offer.
And I was a kid who was
bussed to white schools.
And sometimes my parents
made so little money
that we were on free
or reduced lunch.
I was not dumber than those
kids because I was poor.
And when people
say that families
don't value an
education, I have never
met a family who did
not want their kids
to get a good education.
They may not speak
the same language.
They may not talk about it
in these, like, high terms
that we talk about it in.
But I've never met a
family who didn't want it,
and I've never met a kid
who didn't want an education
until they'd been in
schools long enough
that show them that we don't
care about their education.
So I think-- what I would
say is, you have to--
if you don't believe in
the common good, fine.
Right?
I'm saying, let's be honest.
You either do or you don't.
But if you do, then it's OK to
go into those kids at schools.
And if you have a good
teacher, teachers who are good
know how to differentiate
instruction.
That's how my
daughter's school is.
There's some kids who
are more advanced--
and I remember this
when I was a kid.
We had, like, lions,
tigers, and bears,
and there were three groups.
And they were grouped based
on how advanced they were,
and then the teacher would
spend time with each group
during the day, providing
different instruction.
And then most of the day,
we'd spend time together.
Those are the things
that you're looking for.
But I don't think I
can ever, you know,
calm the fears of a
parent who's like, I
know if I put my
kid in this school
where every kid is
high achieving--
and that seems very attractive.
But I think that test
scores are actually
a pretty terrible
measure, and I think
we need to stop
believing that kids
who are struggling
a little bit are not
as valuable and as capable.
Ooh, that was, like,
a five-minute answer.
No, you're-- actually, you had
a long preamble, so that was--
[LAUGHTER]
SHEETHAL SHOBAWALE: Long
question, long answer.
OK.
How about last one?
This is where-- we're overtime.
AUDIENCE: I was wondering
what your thoughts are
about magnet schools.
I went to a magnet program in
a school in the suburbs of DC
that was very diverse.
To use your phrase, a UN
model nation kind of a thing.
Admittedly, the classes
within the magnet program
weren't nearly as diverse, but
the school itself as a whole
was.
So what do you think
about magnet programs
as a potential solution?
NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES: So
magnets are complicated.
So what magnet
schools are, they're
traditional public schools,
but magnet programs
started as a
desegregation program.
And typically, magnet
schools were placed, like,
within segregated
black communities.
And then they would put
a really fabulous program
in the schools, hoping
that they would then draw
in white parents voluntarily.
So my problem with it
is the whole premise
is that if you
want white parents,
you'd better create
something really good.
And otherwise, you
know, they won't come.
But what is that
saying about, like,
the kids who are
in that community,
and what they deserve?
So I think, like,
fundamentally, I
have a problem with the
way that we privilege
white parents and the
message that it sends,
but I also feel like,
this is really hard.
And if you're trying
with a magnet school,
I'm not going to put a
community down for doing that.
But it's just not
a systemic answer.
And a great example is
Hartford, Connecticut,
which, because of a state
court order, had to integrate,
and it created this
system of magnets
to draw white kids
in from the suburbs.
And the magnets are amazing.
Like, there's one that has
a planetarium in there.
Like, they spent millions
of dollars on these magnets
to draw white kids in who had
a perfectly good education
in their own backyards,
and were only coming
because what they were able
to get through this magnet
program in the city was better
than what they could get.
But they were getting
good education anyway.
And so half of the black kids in
Hartford can go to the magnet,
and the other half of the
black kids get nothing.
They don't get integration.
They can't go to the magnet.
Their schools are terrible.
But in the name of
integration, this is the system
that we've created.
And they actually
denied black students.
They hold seats empty to keep
a particular racial balance.
So there's actually, in some
of the schools, empty seats,
and the black kids
in the district
can't go for racial balance.
And that feels wrong to me.
But I'm also like, they're
at least trying to integrate.
And that's why I say,
like, there's just--
this is being recorded,
so I shouldn't say this.
And any time someone says
I shouldn't say this,
and then they say
it's a bad idea.
But the system is--
the entire system is designed
to produce what it's producing.
And that's what my
book is going to argue.
Our schools are not broken.
Our schools were designed
to favor white students
and to provide black
and Latino students.
And I mean, historically,
going all the way back
to the creation
of public schools,
to deny black and Latino
students an equal education.
And so everything that we do
is functioning around that,
that certain people have choice
and options, and others don't.
But I think for you, I
mean, I don't want to--
I don't know.
Was it a good experience?
AUDIENCE: Yeah, it
was a great school.
NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES: Right.
So I think for so
many white kids,
our intentional integration
provided for them
the opportunity to attend
integrated schools that they
probably wouldn't have before.
And I've heard from tons--
I'm going to have a
chapter on this in my book,
because I don't think we
talk enough to white kids who
went to integrated schools.
I think we always talk
about how it benefits
black and brown
kids, and we never
talk about how it
benefits white kids,
and I think we need to
talk more about that.
But I think overall, magnets
also replicate inequality,
and that you're building these
fabulous schools just so you
can get white kids in there.
And then the black kids who are
already in that neighborhood
deserve those kinds
of schools too.
AUDIENCE: Thank you.
NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES: Thank you.
SHEETHAL SHOBAWALE:
Nikole, I want
to thank you so much for this.
I wish I could read your
book, like, tomorrow.
NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES: I wish
it was written by tomorrow.
SHEETHAL SHOBAWALE: I
can't wait till 2019.
[LAUGHTER]
No pressure.
[APPLAUSE]
But thank you so
much for being here.
NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES: Thank you.
