So thanks very much to the organizers,
it's a great pleasure to be here and I'm
very happy to talk about my research or
just give you a bit of a sampling of
some of the research I'm doing , which is
related to culture. So today there's
gonna be a lot of discussion about
culture and there's actually going to be
I think a lot of discussion about what
we already know about culture within the
economics, within the economics field. So
just I want to quickly define what we
think of as culture, so I think of these
as the morals, values, beliefs that people
hold which are deeply held and they're
often transmitted from one generation to
the next, so from parents to children, but
then also across across individuals, okay.
And so these are things like moral
frameworks, how we think of the world,
religion can you think of as a cultural
trait. And so research has been emerging,
I'm not going to talk about this, but I
think others will. Showing that there are
important cross-cultural differences or
differences across cultures in these
deeply held values, okay. So, this is maybe
not surprising we'll look at some of the
evidence and the other piece of evidence,
which is number two on the slide, is well
that these just aren't random, that they
actually evolve through a systematic
evolutionary framework. Okay, so the
different cultural values, beliefs that
people hold can be traced back to
historical ancestral experiences, okay. So,
I won't talk about that but I think
others are going to talk about that
today. And the other thing is well
culture values belief beliefs matter for
things that economists care about, matter
for economic development, for economic
growth. Okay, again others are going to
talk about this, I believe, and I won't
talk about this. So, what am I going to
talk about? Well, I'm going to ask a
simple question which I think it's
particularly relevant for development
economists: is it really necessary to
understand culture if all I want to do
as a development economist or a
practitioner is just improve the world,
okay? So, if I just want to go out engage
in policy that helps to better the world
why do I need to think about culture or
the history that led to a certain
culture in different societies, okay? And
so that's a completely valid question
right? There's a lot of people that this
is their goal and I'll argue yes, and
this is basically what the talk is going
to be about. So even if you just want to
move
forward there's value in looking at the
past or thinking about culture, the
cultural differences we have we observe
around the world today and where they
came from ,okay. So I'm going to do this
with three examples, okay, so this is just
it's not going to be a comprehensive
overview and I'm just gonna give you a
bit of a dabbling of some of the
research I know and I'm currently
involved in, some of these are going to
be published already some are just just
very initial investigations, but they're
gonna come from from three fields which
are three areas of development, which are
very plain Jane, these are your standard
areas of development if we think of
development policy, health, agriculture
and education. So these aren't weird
things and weird situations where we
think culture might matter, okay. Okay, so
the first thing I'm going to talk about
is health okay. So there's a lot of
examples of Western medicine attempting
to go into developing countries, there's
been huge huge improvements over the
last hundred years. We know as doctors
and practitioners how to save lives, we
have the technology, we go into the
country, we have the donor money, we
invest in the infrastructure and we
attempt to do this but then we're
derailed because we don't have the
cooperation on the ground, from local
participants that we should. So the
biggest example of this is recent Ebola
outbreaks, so here's just a headline from
2014 the West African Ebola outbreak
where we have practitioners, you have
medical professionals that know what's
going on and they're trying to get
people to do what they need to do to
contain it, and people believe aren't
listening to them and actually believe
that they're the cause of Ebola, that
Ebola is actually something that was
manufactured by the West. ok. And so you
might think well that's just one
instance, but actually this is very
recently, from only three or
four days ago, there's been a recent
Ebola outbreak in the eastern DRC, and
the exact same thing happens,
actually even much much more extreme. So here a number of Red Cross workers have
been attacked and and kind of brutally
injured, and so it's not just that
they're not listening to them, but they
really you know distrust them and feel
like they're the cause of this, and so
and so those are extreme cases but
there's actually less sorry there's less
extreme cases where you might
well these are cases where there's a lot
of death and uncertainty and so people
are just acting irrationally. So even in
cases like vaccination campaigns
where there's nothing kind of dramatic
going on there's a lot of examples of
people refusing vaccinations. So that the
probably most well-known is in 2003
there was a global polio vaccination
campaign and in Nigeria three states in
the North just refused, right. And so then
this is very common at a much more local
level. So what's going on or you know
what's the cause of this or can we
better understand this? If we go back in
history actually to the early colonial
period so early 1900s there were similar
campaigns which were going on. So these
are images from colonial medical
campaigns and so this is where colonial
officials come in and they're, much like
they are today, trying to do good okay. So
these are campaigns where they're trying
to eradicate sleeping sickness which is
a disease that's transmitted by the the
tsetse fly also known as trypanosomiasis.
And what they did is they would come
into villages they would line people up,
often you know they were on a you know
often they want to do this quickly and
efficiently, so they would often work
with the chief and line people up and
coerce them, because they all didn't want
to do this. And the picture on the on
your right is basically testing for
trypanosomiasis. So that required a
spinal tap which was very painful. Often
what they did was rather than test
people and only treat those people that
had trypanosomiasis they would just
treat everybody, okay. And like I said
this was how often you had to do this at
gunpoint or with coercion and early
treatment was using an arsenic based
drug called a toxin. So it turns out
20-30 years later they found out oh well
this actually causes blindness over
the long run, so 20% of people that took
this actually then were visually
impaired or or blind, okay and so these
are places, this wasn't that long ago,
this is between 1920 and 1950. I have two
students Sarah Lowe's and Eduardo
Montero which actually tried to quantify
this and see whether this is related to
what's going on today.
And so the way they did this is
went through colonial archives and got
measures of how many times were
different regions of French Equatorial
Africa, so these are all French campaigns
they're looking at specifically were
visited, you can kind of see this on the
map okay. So then what you can do is also
line this up with the success of
different health projects today. So the
World Bank has data where they give
grades to different projects World Bank
projects, and those are the dots the
location of those projects are the dots
on the map as well. So if you correlate
those these are two off no equations so
you can be happy with that by will have
a few graphs. If you correlate those the
graph on the Left tells you the
relationship on the x-axis a number of
times the district was visited during
these colonial medical campaigns and on
the y-axis the vertical axis is the
score, how successful are World Bank
projects today. So you see this
negative relationship World Bank health
projects you see this negative
relationship, the more a location was
visited by these colonial medical
campaigns the less successful World Bank
health projects are today.
And the right graph tells you this is
specific to health projects okay. The
right graph is an aggregation of all
other types of projects and you see if
anything the positive the relationship
there is positive okay.
So it's specific to health project. So we
can dig down a little bit deeper, well
why is it that these projects failed?
There's lots of reasons. They also
collected data from the DHS which is a
survey just undertaken many times in
many countries, where they offered people
free blood tests, so free blood tests to
determine if you had anemia or HIV and
people refused. And so if you look at the
refusal rates they correlate very
strongly. So in places where you had
these colonial medical campaigns in the
past these refusal rates are much higher
okay if you look at the culture the oral
history of the people they remember
there are narratives where they remember
these colonial medical campaigns. There
are songs which have been created that
they sing about how these foreigners
came in, they did things to them that
were very painful, there were these
adverse effects right. So this tells you
and this is
blood refusal rates across all countries
for which they could get data okay. So
this is just one example of history
historical events causing an evolution
of culture and here I would call this
distrust in Western medicine and that
affecting policy today okay. So if we're
policymakers and we understand this this
paper is only about a year old, if we now
understand this we can think about when
we go into a location and are
undertaking health policies
maybe we should learn about the history,
think about what effects that had and
maybe we need slightly different
strategies in different places, depending
on the particular histories that they
had. The other thing I think this thing
tells you this incidents tells you is
well there are actually long-run
potential externalities to development
projects that aren't kind of run in the
best best way. So we can run them very
efficiently so we achieve our targets
today, but what's that doing for for for
the future or for future people that
come in, okay. And you might think well
you know this is this is of Africa, I
wanted to give you one other example
closer to home and this is it within the
US. There's a well known experiment
called Tuskegee, I think anyone who's
done IRB has learned about this because
IRB was created because of this. It's
next it's an experiment from the US
government started in 1932 where they
observed black men that had syphilis,
okay. So they observed them for 40 years,
observed them at regular intervals, knew
they had syphilis, knew the treatment and
did not treat them okay. And in 1972, four
years, later there was a magazine article
that came out in in ramparts magazine an
expose that revealed this, okay.
In the left graph you can see each of
those dots is the mortality gap between
blacks and whites. The blue dots are for
males and the red dots are for females.
So you can see over time this gap is
declining, right, and it's of
individuals 55 to 64. So the gap between
black and white mortality is declining
over time until 1972, that's the line.
And then the female gap, remember women
were not part of the study, continues to
decline while the male gap kind of
slightly reverses or completely flattens
okay.
And so she in her paper supposes
published in the quarterly Journal of
economics in 2018. This is another
student of mine, Marcela Elsa,
basically documents that this is a real
causal relationship from Tuskegee to
mortality rates of African-American men
okay, and part of this is gonna be your
distance from Tuskegee which you can see
in the map is the location there. And so
she's actually gone on, she's a medical
doctor she's gone on to now think about
well how do we fix this okay, so now
she's implementing, this is a follow-up
paper, mobile health units within Oakland
and she's recruited African-American men
from local barber shops and what she's
doing is she's randomizing are you
assigned to an African-American doctor
or not. So if we think that these higher
rates of mortality are due to distrust
in Western medicine that might be one
way to overcome this, and she's finding
large effects depending on the race of
the doctor in whether people take up
this this this free medicine okay. So I
think that's just one example from the
health medical side okay. So agriculture,
so here's a headline from The Economist
so it says why fertilizer subsidies in
it in Africa have not worked okay. So if
you look around the world fertilizer
consumption is increased we know that
fertilizer has huge impacts on
agricultural output that's a good thing,
agricultural output spurs industrial
output, this might be hard to see but the
very bottom line is the use of
fertilizer in sub-saharan Africa okay.
There's a quote there from a well known
agronomist Stephen Carr about how in
Africa people don't use fertilizer okay.
So is this something I've been thinking
about, there are some well-known papers
for those of you that academics within
economics conjecturing that there are
certain reasons. And so we're gonna
explore this a little bit from a
cultural dimension or we have and we've
started this is again very exploratory
so I'd love people's thoughts on this
going to it's you know in some sense
almost the epicenter of Africa a town
called Kananga, which is in the middle of
the Democratic Republic
of Congo, and we just ask people,
individuals from Kananga but actually
who have recently moved from these rural
areas so we're asking them about their
villages and just providing them little
case studies or vignettes. So imagine we
are in a village outside of Kananga, the
primary crop is maize, so that's
factually correct in the region
imagine that one farmer named Matumbo
has a maize harvest is twice as large as
others as large as all other farmers in
the village okay. So for some reason he
has a particularly good harvest and one
question is well what will others
believe is the reason for Matumbo's
success? Okay, so you can think about this
what would you believe? And the number
one answer is the use of fetishes/
witchcraft/ or ancestors. Okay, So that
there is going to be some sort of
supernatural reason that an individual
is has a particularly good harvest. Hard
work, the other supernatural reason is is
Christian so prayer is blessings from
God. Skills and good luck, okay. So that's
the first thing. So imagine now in the
same year one of the other farmers has a
particularly terrible harvest and his
crop is completely eaten by insects, okay.
How likely is it that others will blame
Mutumbo for this? Okay, and this is
motivated in part because we've when we
were there I've been there for a number
of years now that we've heard many many
stories like this, okay, so you know
having your crops eaten by insects are
really unrelated to the fact that
Mutumbo, you know, may have used
fertilizer or did something and did
particularly well. Similar stories where
one child will die
unexpectedly from malaria and people
will link it to something else that
happened which was good, okay, and so you
can see very likely or likely. So in the
back of people's mind it's well this
person may have been using witchcraft,
witchcraft is zero sum to gain something
you need someone else to lose something
and that's the link, okay. So will other
people in the village expect Mutumbo to
share some of his newfound wealth with
them? And you can see yes, right. So either
everyone/ most people/ family and friends/
and then a few people in their villages
they find no one will, okay. So this is
has to do with redistributed pressures
right.
So if Mutumbo refuses how likely is
it the other members of the village will
try to sabotage Mutumbo's crops in some
way? okay. So you see very likely or
likely is extremely common okay.
So again like I said this is research
we're just starting but you can think
about, well, in this environment would you
want to take the risk to try a new
technology that people really don't
understand and that could fail, so you're
bearing all the costs when the benefits
potentially have some of these things
that come along with them, okay. And so
this is something in the research has
been done on why people don't take up
these technologies hasn't been thought
of okay, so there are other answers like
oh well people in developing countries
aren't patient enough and that that
explains it, okay. My own experience
people in developing countries they're
much more entrepreneurial much more
patient or able to survive at this very
low level of income, so I don't think
it's some fault
along those lines, some behavioral glitch.
And so these are global prevalences of
such beliefs, so this is basically
beliefs in witchcraft or here it's evil,
I this is data from Pew. So you can see
the Democratic Republic of Congo right
there in the middle of Africa this isn't
the most extreme case in terms of
prevalence of such beliefs, okay, So I
think this is pretty representative what
we're finding here in initial research
is pretty representative of Africa as a
whole. And the other thing you can see is
it is true that for Africa these beliefs
seem to be stronger. We're missing data
for a lot of countries, but they also
exist in other parts of the world, okay.
And so I don't think that we've really
understood the importance of such
beliefs which I which are common which
are real for for policy, and here in this
case agricultural policy, okay. So the
last example and then I'll conclude is
school construction in Indonesia, so
again a very standard plain-jane
development policy. In 1973 the
Indonesian government large launched the
largest school construction project in
the world with the help of World Bank
funding.
Sixty one thousand eight hundred and
seven primary schools were built over
about a six year period. So was it a
success? So again for those of you
from the economists or academics we
know that it was a success there's a
famous 2001 paper by Esther Duflo in
the American Economic Review that showed
it was a success, okay.
But she only looked at boys actually, and
the reason was because she wanted to
then look at the effect of Education on
wages and it was only men that tended to
work. So if you look at girls you find
zero effect, so big positive effect on
schools up for boys. Schools are built I
sent my son to school but schools are
built on average I don't send my
daughter to school, okay. But turns out if
you dig deeper into the zero effect
there's a lot of heterogeneity. So for
certain ethnic groups or certain regions
there was a large positive effect, and
for other ethnic groups which tended to
be the dominant ethnic group in terms of
numbers the effect was zero, so when you
average it you kind of get zero. But for
one group it was a huge success, for
another group it was a huge failure,
right, and so why why is it that the
policy here was a success here was a
failure? And if you're evaluating it you
would come to very different answers
depending on which ethnic group you
looked at. So we replicated the same
thing in Zambia actually there was a
similar school construction project
about 20 years later within Zambia and
you find exactly the same thing, okay. So
what's going on? So it turns out it has
to do with the custom that has at face
value nothing to do with education, okay.
and so this is a marriage custom called
bride-price
which is common in much of Asia
throughout much of Africa and this is a
payment from the groom at marriage from
the groom to the bride's family and so
this payment is often large often in
excess of a year's worth of income
sometimes two three years worth of
income okay and these are the regions of
Indonesia and of Zambia that have
bride-price
okay and this is just fraction a
population that traditionally practices
bride-price in each location okay so it
turns out those dark red locations are
the locations where the school
construction projects were successful at
sending daughters to school
okay so what's why would that be so if
you ask people what's the number one
determinant of whether your daughter
gets a higher bride price versus a lower
bride price in marriage and these are a
survey data from about 1,500 people in
Zambia and this is just their
perceptions education is the number one
determinant okay so if a daughter is
educated her bride price is going to be
higher so we can actually collect data
we did collect data in the paper and run
regressions on the amount of bride price
received by parents at marriage and the
education of the daughter and you find
huge effects so if a daughter completes
primary school the amount of bride price
you get doubles once you complete
secondary school it doubles again
completes college it doubles a third
time right and remember these are things
like a year's worth of income so there's
a huge differences so if a parent
parents are thinking about should I send
my daughter to school right in certain
societies there is no bride price okay
and they make that calculation or make
that decision in other societies there
is a bride price and so there is a
monetary incentive well if I do send her
to primary school to secondary school a
few years down the line I'm gonna get
you know an extra thousand dollars or an
extra which is a big amount in in these
settings okay and so in this paper we
kind of really got into the nitty-gritty
in terms of the theory and the empirics
to show that this the story I just told
you in words actually checks out in
reality and checks out theoretically or
mathematically as well okay and if you
don't believe these these surveys or the
regressions we ran I think there's an
even better piece of evidence and this
is an app that anyone can download right
now this is called the lobola calculator
and this is la bola is the word for
bride price in the southern part of
Africa so you if you want to know how
many cows you're worth if you were to
get married which I've done I have it on
my phone right now you download this app
and you start inputting information okay
so like how good-looking are you how
good of a cook are you these sorts of
things and then one of the very first
things that you put in is your is your
education level okay
so so this is a little bit for fun I
think in reality this app isn't used to
intensively during negotiations
okay so I think that's it that's three
examples I think these are again three
plain-jane
examples in the policy world and well
just to go back I should mention I think
it's obvious but the implication here is
well if you're building these schools in
certain in certain regions of the world
depending on the cultural trait you
might just need to build the school
that's it people will send their
daughters in other places you might need
to do something more have scholarships
provide scholarships for uniforms lunch
meals our meals or something else to
induce individuals but at least thinking
about those issues and thinking about
what's the culture what's the context of
the society that I'm going into is is
important okay and I think all of these
examples shared that in common that if
we know a tiny little bit about the
society either their cultural traits the
customs the history then we can design
policy or we at least we'll know where
policy is more or less effective and
then we can design policy that takes
that into account okay and I think I
really do you think the effective policy
can can can do this or needs to do this
and so I think right now very very much
we have a one-size-fits-all view of
development I think we all with this
push for our CTS there's kind of the
view that oh I'd you know in theory I
don't even need to go to this developing
country I just randomize and then the
data comes in and I'm sitting in
Cambridge or New York and then I can see
what worked what didn't work and then
scale up what works and not what doesn't
work right so this is telling you well
you know we can think a bit harder
actually learn about these societies
maybe get them involved into research
and into our understanding and do a lot
better than the one-size-fits-all
policies we have right now so okay thank
you
for your witchcraft story there are a
lot of countries there that just said
unknown yeah and I tried to look at just
a couple the ones in Europe like in
Russia it seemed not too different from
Africa. For the countries that were
unknown are they most likely to be low
witchcraft countries or how does that
data work at it and can you is that
fuzzy anything? So I think it's gonna be
both so one you know you saw Western
Europe I believe was unknown and Pew
didn't go into there but then there's a
lot of African countries where it's just
difficult to do the surveys or more
costly and so with limited budget you're
gonna go to certain African countries
like Kenya or Tanzania which are easier
to get into. And so I think it's gonna be
a mix actually, yeah. And and the other
interesting thing that if you wanted to
really understand the dynamics of this
how these beliefs evolve how they, you
know, maybe change over time actually
looking at European history is going to
be important, right, and so it wasn't too
many centuries ago, maybe one or two
centuries ago that these beliefs were
also very prevalent within within Europe.
I think France had a big transition very
late in terms of these beliefs, and so
yeah, so I think this is yeah I just open
you know an open research agenda
yeah. Within economics religion the
importance of religion has people are
starting to really dig into this but
it's kind of forgotten that that's a
religion as well, and we focus on you
know religions with high gods -
Christianity Islam but there's a lot of
other beliefs in the world, yeah. Thank
you so much. Language: when we use the
term witchcraft yeah are we referring to
the pharmaceutical opioids that we use
here in the United States?
I'll leave it at that. Yeah, no I
agree, so it's a little bit it's tricky
for someone doing research in this area,
because I think to convey what you're
talking about very quickly there's there
are words we use in the West and but I'd
very much agree with it's a continuum of
beliefs and
you know in some sense those beliefs in
that part of the world have been ignored.
But there is a continuum and they're
very similar to the beliefs that we have
here, and that's part of understanding
the psychology of human beings and yeah
yeah. So I don't think it's anything yeah,
and I definitely hope I didn't come
across as saying and that's actually
exactly opposite my research
you know it's irrational it's inferior
or these are things which have evolved
and and have benefits and there is a
logic, yeah. I was I was wondering the
procedures that were done in the early
20th century
why were they done at gunpoint, and also
I was wondering if with the recognition
of the need to modify strategies in
order to accommodate cultural and
culture and history
what about basic communication? You know
that here we have something to help for
Ebola what about I mean is that the
effort to successfully communicate that
we're not going it's not at gunpoint,
we're not going to give you poisonous
drugs and you know to clearly you know
make it known that this actually will
help, I mean basic communication doesn't
seem to be you know a you know that big
an obstacle. Yep yep yep so yeah so you
know why was it at gunpoint? You can yeah
I wasn't there but you can conjecture,
you come into a village there's some
people that don't want you, you're trying
to get these done ,you know they did many
rounds per year trying to get this done
very quickly and that's just the most
efficient way, right. You need a bit of
coercion and so I think that was the
justification and then and also the
justification is well you know we're
trying to help them we're trying to help
them here, and we could take a few days
many days to explain. I'm sure you know
the justification was well you know can
they really understand and will that
help? And but I agree with you completely,
that that's kind of what's missing for a
lot of this right. So if you might save
money if you don't take extra day
maybe double the amount of days or
budget that's required to communicate to
people to explain things to them you
know you might save fifty percent, but
you're kind of potentially doing harm
for those that come after you or for
development projects in the long run. So
I think communication is a big a big
part of it. I'm working on a
world bank water project right now and
there's a limit in the amount of money
we're allowed to spend on local
essentially enumerators or local people
that help undertake the project and
those are exactly the types of people
that you would want to help communicate.
And so part of it's structural that for
some reason you know you can't spend too
much money on communication it has to be
spent on the product or these sorts of
things, I think there's yeah. There's only
another part that you have to deal with
history of European involvement in this
country in these countries, for example
Monsanto who is trying to lobby Vietnam
to use a new crop and they show it very
successful in some way. But people refuse
it because Monsanto used Agent Orange in
Vietnam in the past, so people wouldn't
listen to it.
Recently Vietnam also the the best
country in production of agriculture
they refuse the the model that was lobby
by the U.U. in Vietnam during the war.
mm-hmm Yep yeah so I think there's lots
of other more contemporary examples
definitely of factors and influence from
the outside which affect which affect
development, yeah. So I agree. Oh sorry
there's a question here. Could
you say a little more about the Pew
survey? I'm familiar with like the world
value survey yes there's a way to look
some of these issues but what can you do
with these Pew surveys and are there
some comparative advantages of those too?
So yeah so I think the Pew surveys are
just a bit less systematic and they're
less publicly available, and so but they
do ask questions like this which are you
know relevant to maybe
or become more or less of interest in
different points of time, and so but
they're they are harder to get. So a
co-author was able to get his hands on
this through another project and I don't
think they're free in general, and so but
they do have interesting data like this
which yeah and it will ask about
attitudes about current events, and you
know, and these sorts of things which the
world value survey won't do so okay so
well I'll make sure I alternate now yeah.
Well, thank you for a fascinating talk.
May I may I indulge myself in a showing
you a broader question kind of a
curveball as someone who's been
persuaded by Easterly's argument that
aid agencies and aid groups often do
more harm than good by effectively
aligning themselves with dictators who
choke the economy.
The basic argument that only homegrown
development in terms of markets can do
could. I'm just worried and then you
mentioned the the gunpoint thing, yeah
which of course is horrifying, and
I'm just wondering whether you are
opening the door for more research of
people who think well they're gonna do
good and plunge in and does that bother
you in any way to think in terms of the
broader perspective that Easterly is
giving us about the possibility that
people can do more harm than good.
that's a great great question. I hope
that I'm doing the exact opposite of
what you're suggesting. So I think the
the this would suggest which is kind of
I think how I approach research a bit
more is let's just go to a location and
understand what's going on, right, as
academics. Rather than saying oh I'm
gonna try and fix there's something that
I know or I know I have the answer. I'm
gonna try and fix things fix things
there. So let's just go and try and
understand and then once we're pretty
you know have an understanding maybe
there are little things we can do. But
it's definitely a very different
perspective than you know I need to I
need to fix something so let me just try
and do this do that do that which can
cause a lot of a lot of harm, right and
so so I think this really opens the door
for just research which maybe is a more
traditional type of development research,
where let's just try and understand
what's going on in developing countries,
right and and let's involve them and
more participatory if we think there's a
little things we can we can do. But but I
agree a little bit that it's a strange
perspective to take that you know things
are broken and only we can fix them, and
yeah, and often you know I I do agree we
often do more harm than good.
Hi, very interesting, back in the eighties
and nineties I did hundreds of
evaluations of development projects
around the world, and most of them
frankly delivered about 10% of what they
hope to. But I came across one
that was delivered about 10 times what
the project document suggested it should
and they absolutely embraced the
cultural issues that you've been
describing, yeah and you know the idea
that you know a 10th going from
Washington down or London down or Paris
down, and getting to a community centric
really on the ground you know what the
local people want, yeah, and doing a
little bit of it yeah and then more of
it and then more of it yeah and the
problem with the particular one that I'm
referring to is when I wrote it up as a
wonderful project that was the end.
Because it had been a success we didn't
have to do anymore and they wanted to
put the money in the projects that
hadn't worked because they hadn't
achieved the objectives yet. I mean
you know all the incentives were
completely out of out of kilter
with what we really need. Yeah yeah yeah
no I think that's a great example and I
think we do need more communication and
about what works why and often that the
devil is in these contextual details
which often get glossed over, right. And
so yeah, so so that's great thanks, thank
you very much, ok thank you.
