>>> IN A 6-3 DECISION THAT
>>> IN A 6-3 DECISION THAT
SURPRISED MANY OBSERVERS, THE
SUPREME COURT YESTERDAY MADE IT
ILLEGAL TO FIRE SOMEONE FOR
BEING GAY OR TRANSGENDER.
THE OPINION WAS WRITTEN BY A
TRUMP-APPOINTED JUSTICE, NEIL
GORSUCH, ALONG WITH JOHN
ROBERTS, VOTED WITH THE LIBERAL
MEMBERS OF THE COURT.
MAJORITY FOUND TITLE 7 OF THE
CIVIL RIGHTS ACT OF 1974 WHICH
PROHIBITS DISCRIMINATION ON THE
BASIS OF SEX ALSO APPLIES TO
SEXUAL ORIENTATION AND
TRANSGENDER STATUS.
JUSTICE GORSUCH WROTE, AN
EMPLOYEE WHO FIRES AN INDIVIDUAL
FOR BEING HOMOSEXUAL OR
TRANSGENDER FIRES THAT PERSON
FOR TRAITS OR ACTIONS IT WOULD
NOT HAVE QUESTIONED IN A MEMBER
OF A DIFFERENT SEX.
SEX PLAYS A NECESSARY AND
UNDISTINGUISHABLE ROLE IN THE
DECISION. EXACTLY WHAT TITLE VII FORBIDS.
EXACTLY WHAT TITLE VII FORBIDS.
CLARENCE THOMAS AND SAMUEL ALITO
DISSENTED
DISSENTED.
JOINING, PULITZER PRIZE WINNING
WRITER, JONATHAN CAPEHART.
WITH US, "NEW YORK TIMES"
REPORTER JEREMY PETERS WRITING
ON YESTERDAY’S 6-3 SUPREME COURT
DECISION.
GUYS, GOOD MORNING.
IT’S GOOD TO SEE YOU BOTH.
JONATHAN, I WANT TO START WITH
YOU.
I MENTIONED SOME PEOPLE WERE
SURPRISED.
MAYBE NOT BY THE OUTCOME BUT BY
THE VOTE, 6-3.
I THINK YOU WERE ONE OF THEM.
>> YES, I WAS VERY SURPRISED.
I’M NO LAWYER, SO THERE ARE LOTS
OF LAWYERS WHO WEREN’T SURPRISED
BECAUSE JUSTICE GORSUCH IS A,
QUOTE, TEXTUALIST, HE LOOKS AT
THE CASE AND DOES THE CASE
BEFORE HIM FOLLOW THE TEXT AND
THAT’S THE WAY HE’S GOING TO GO.
BUT FOR THOSE OF US WHO AREN’T
LAWYERS, THIS WAS HUGE.
ONE, BECAUSE THE DECISION WAS
6-3.
NOT 5-4. FROM A
CONSERVATIVE COURT.
ALSO BECAUSE JUSTICE GORSUCH WAS
APPOINTED BY PRESIDENT TRUMP.
NOMINATED AND WAS CONFIRMED BY
PRESIDENT TRUMP.
AND SO THE FACT THAT YOU HAVE
THIS INCREDIBLE NEW EXPANSION OF
RIGHTS FOR THE LGBTQ COMMUNITY
COMING FROM THIS CONSERVATIVE
COURT TRULY IS BREATHTAKING.
AND BREATHTAKING ALSO BECAUSE IT
COMES FIVE YEARS -- FIVE YEARS
AFTER THE SUPREME COURT MADE
SAME-SEX MARRIAGE THE LAW OF THE
LAND.
>> AND JONATHAN, JUST TAKING A
STEP BACK, TAKE OFF YOUR
REPORTER HAT FOR A MINUTE AND
JUST SPEAK AS WHO YOU ARE ABOUT
HOW BIG THIS IS.
I THINK MOST PEOPLE IN THIS
COUNTRY DIDN’T REALIZE THAT MORE
THAN HALF OF THE STATES IN OUR
COUNTRY, IT STILL WAS LEGAL TO
FIRE SOMEONE BASED ON THEIR
SEXUAL ORIENTATION.
SO CULTURALLY AND PRACTICALLY,
HOW BIG A DEAL IS THIS?
>> CULTURALLY AND PRACTICALLY,
THIS IS HUGE.
ALMOST FOUR YEARS AGO, I WAS
ABLE TO GET MARRIED TO MY
HUSBAND, THANKS TO THE SUPREME
COURT.
BUT WE WERE ALSO MINDFUL THAT
OUR SATURDAY WEDDING, I COULD
HAVE BEEN LEGALLY FIRED IF I
WERE IN THE OTHER 29 STATES
THAT -- WHERE IT’S NOT
PROTECTED.
I COULD HAVE BEEN FIRED ON MY
FIRST DAY BACK AT WORK AFTER MY
WEDDING.
WHAT THIS RULING DOES IS THAT IT
MAKES IT ILLEGAL FOR SOMEONE TO
BE FIRED BECAUSE THEY ARE GAY,
LESBIAN OR TRANSGENDER.
AS AN AMERICAN, AS A GAY
AMERICAN, TO HAVE THE SUPREME
COURT RECOGNIZE ONCE AGAIN THE
FACT THAT I AM HUMAN, THE FACT
THAT I HAVE DIGNITY AND THAT
DIGNITYISHIP AFFIRMED IS
CONFIRMED.
BUT THE FACT IT’S COMING FROM A
CONSERVATIVE SUPREME COURT MAKES
IT THAT MUCH MORE SPECIAL AND
SWEET.
IN THE LONG RUN, WE SHOULD NOT
HAVE TO RELY ON THE SUPREME
COURT TO GUARANTEE THESE RIGHTS.
IN A FUNCTIONING DEMOCRACY, THIS
SHOULD HAVE BEEN MADE LAW BY THE
LEGISLATIVE BRANCH.
AND THIS JUST SHOWS -- IT SHOWS
JUST HOW BROKEN THE LEGISLATIVE
BRANCH IS.
THE EQUALITY ACT PASSED OUT OF
THE HOUSE IN THIS EARLIER THIS
YEAR AND IS SITTING IN THE
SENATE WAITING FOR MITCH
McCONNELL TO GIVE IT A VOTE.
BUT HE WON’T BECAUSE THERE ARE
NO JUDGES.
HE’S ONLY INTERESTED IN
CONFIRMING MORE CONSERVATIVE
YOUNG JUDGES TO THE FEDERAL
JUDICIARY.
>> SO JEREMY PETERS, YOU’RE
REPORTING ALL DAY YESTERDAY
ABOUT THIS CASE, ABOUT THIS
OUTCOME.
IT’S INTERESTING TO LOOK WHERE
THE COUNTRY IS AND SORT OF
SEEING THE SUPREME COURT AND
STATES TRY TO CATCH UP TO IT.
IN A RECENT POLL BY CBS NEWS,
82% OF AMERICANS SAID, YES, OF
COURSE, GAY AND LESBIAN PEOPLE
SHOULD BE AFFORDED THE SAME
RIGHTS IN TERMS OF
DISCRIMINATION AS EVERYONE ELSE,
INCLUDING 71% OF REPUBLICANS.
SO THIS INDEED WAS A LONG TIME
COMING.
>> RIGHT, WILLIE.
AND I THINK ONE OF THE KEY
POINTS TO LOOK AT HERE IS, WHILE
JUSTICE GORSUCH JUSTIFIED HIS
OPINION IN A FUNDAMENTALLY
CONSERVATIVE WAY SAYING I’M
READING THE TEXT OF THE LAW AND
THE TEXT OF THE LAW SAYS YOU
CAN’T DISCRIMINATE BASED ON
GENDER.
AND THAT SHOULD APPLY TO SEXUAL
ORIENTATION AND GENDER IDENTITY
AS WELL.
THERE’S SOMETHING LARGER
CULTURALLY GOING ON HERE.
AND THE CHANGES THAT HAVE BEEN
SWEEPING THE NATION WITH REGARD
TO ACCEPTANCE OF GAY RIGHTS, OF
TRANSGENDER PEOPLE DID NOT STOP
AT THE SUPREME COURT STEPS.
THERE ARE, AS ONE LAWYER SAID TO
ME YESTERDAY, I WAS INTERVIEWING
JUSTICES OF THE SUPREME COURT
NOW WHO KNOW AND PROBABLY LOVE
GAY PEOPLE.
ALMOST ALL OF THEM PROBABLY DO.
AND THAT’S A SIGNIFICANT CHANGE
FROM JUST TEN YEARS AGO.
THESE GAY JUSTICES HAVE, IN
FACT, CLERKED FOR JUSTICE
GORSUCH.
SO IT’S REALLY KIND OF
UNTHINKABLE THAT THESE
RELATIONSHIPS IN HIS PERSONAL
AND SOCIAL LIFE WOULD NOT HAVE
HAD AN IMPACT ON HIS THINKING
HERE, THOUGH HE DID ULTIMATELY
GROUND HIS OPINION IN A
CONSERVATIVE INTERPRETATION OF
THE LAW.
EVEN CONSERVATIVES HAVE GAY
FRIENDS, GAY RELATIVES, AND I
THINK THAT THAT AWARENESS OF
THEM, THAT AWARENESS THAT
THEY’RE JUST ORDINARY PEOPLE WHO
ARE ENTITLED TO RIGHTS UNDER THE
CONSTITUTION IS WHAT WAS AT PLAY
HERE IN A PRETTY SIGNIFICANT
WAY.
>> JEREMY, IT’S KATTY HERE.
I THOUGHT YOUR REPORTING ON
GORSUCH’S RELATIONSHIP WITH GAY
PEOPLE IN HIS PAST WAS INTEREST
INTERESTING YESTERDAY.
IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE COMING UP
IN THE NEXT FEW MONTHS UNTIL THE
NOVEMBER ELECTION WHERE YOU --
WHERE THE COURT STILL HAS TO
RULE ON THIS ISSUE OR WHERE
PRESIDENT TRUMP MIGHT TRY TO
TAKE COUNTERACTION IN ORDER TO
SHORE UP HIS OWN EVANGELICAL
BASE?
PRETTY CLEAR YESTERDAY FROM HIS
COMMENTS HE WAS DISAPPOINTED BY
THE COURT’S RULINGS.
COULD YOU SEE HIM DOING
SOMETHING TO TRY TO WIN BACK
CONSERVATIVE EVANGELICALS ON THE
ISSUE?
>> SO THERE CERTAINLY WILL BE
PRESSURE ON THAT KATTY.
THE CONSERVATIVES, RELIGIOUS
CONSERVATIVES YESTERDAY THAT I
WAS TALKING TO WERE QUITE UPSET
AND QUITE SURPRISED BY THIS
DECISION.
I THINK IT’S PRETTY FAIR TO SAY
THIS SURPRISED PEOPLE ACROSS THE
POLITICAL SPECTRUM.
BUT THERE’S ONLY SO MUCH THAT
PRESIDENT TRUMP CAN DO.
HE’S ISSUED SO MANY SKIFT ORDERS
ALREADY THAT UNDERMINE,
ESPECIALLY TRANSGENDER
PROTECTIONS.
THERE’S NOT A WHOLE LOT OF
ARROWS LEFT TO -- IN THAT COIL.
SO HE’S PRETTY LIMITED.
I WILL SAY THIS, THOUGH.
THERE ARE A NUMBER OF ASPECTS OF
THE LAW THAT CONSERVATIVES --
RELIGIOUS CONSERVATIVES,
ESPECIALLY AND THEIR LEGAL
ORGANIZATIONS.
AND THESE ARE WELL-FUNDED
ORGANIZATION, BY THE WAY, THAT
HAVE THE ABILITY TO WAGE
LAWSUITS AND TRY TO CHANGE THE
LAW HERE.
THEY ARE LOOKING AT CARVE OUTS
FOR RELIGIOUS EXEMPTIONS AND
THINGS LIKE THAT TO -- HOUSING
LAW TO PUBLIC ACCOMMODATIONS
LAW, TO ADOPTION LAW.
THEY WANT RELIGIOUS
ORGANIZATIONS TO BE ABLE TO SAY,
FOR EXAMPLE, NO, I WILL NOT
ALLOW AN ADOPTION OF A CHILD TO
A GAY OR LESBIAN COUPLE.
SO I WOULD BE ON THE LOOKOUT FOR
CASES LIKE THAT.
>> MONUMENTAL DECISION IN THE
SUPREME COURT YESTERDAY.
JONATHAN, WANT TO GET YOU IN ON
SOME CAMPAIGN NEWS AS WELL.
PRESIDENT TRUMP IS NOW IN A
STATISTICAL DEAD HEAT WITH JOE
BIDEN IN THE STATE OF IOWA.
THE LATEST DES MOINES REGISTER
MEDIACOM POLL HAS TRUMP UP ONE
POINT, 44% TO 43%.
THAT’S WITHIN THE MARGIN OF
ERROR.
FOUR YEARS AGO, DONALD TRUMP
CARRIED THAT STATE BY NEARLY 10
POINTS.
THE POLL ALSO SHOWS A
SIGNIFICANT GENDER DIVIDE WITH
JOE BIDEN UP 14 POINTS AMONG
WOMEN IN THAT STATE.
50% TO 36%.
PRESIDENT TRUMP LEADS AMONG MEN
WITHOUT COLLEGE DEGREES BY 36
POINTS WHILE JOE BIDEN IS UP 18
POINTS AMONG WOMEN WITHOUT
COLLEGE DEGREES.
ANOTHER STATE WHERE THE TWO SEEM
NECK AND NECK IS ARKANSAS.
PRESIDENT TRUMP IS AT 47% AND
STATISTICALLY TIED WITH JOE
BIDEN WHO SITS AT 45%.
DONALD TRUMP WON ARKANSAS IN
2016 BY NEARLY 27 POINTS.
ONE POSTSCRIPT TO THAT POLL, ON
SUNDAY, TRUMP CAMPAIGN LAWYER
JENNA ELLIS TWEETED OUT THE
ARKANSAS POLL AS EVIDENCE TO THE
CAMPAIGN’S COMPLAINT THAT CNN’S
RECENT POLLS DO NOT MATCH
OTHERS.
BUT CNN’S RECENT POLL THAT
SHOWED JOE BIDEN UP BIG WAS A
NATIONAL POLL WHICH DID MATCH
OTHER RECENT NATIONAL POLLS.
ELLIS LATER DELETED THE POST AND
TWEETED SHE HAD POSTED THE WRONG
POLL BEFORE POSTING A LINK TO A
ZOGBY ANALYTICS POLL OF WHO
PEOPLE THOUGHT WOULD WIN THE
PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.
ALL RIGHT.
PUTTING THAT TO THE SIDE FOR
JUST A SECOND, JONATHAN.
YOU LOOK AT SOME OF THESE STATES
THAT WERE RUNAWAYS FOR DONALD
TRUMP IN 2016.
I’M NOT SURE THERE ARE A LOT OF
PEOPLE WHO WOULD BET MUCH MONEY
THAT JOE BIDEN IS GOING TO WIN
ARKANSAS, BUT THE FACT IN THAT
POLL IS WITHIN THE MARGIN OF
ERROR IN IOWA WHERE DONALD TRUMP
WON COMFORTABLY FOUR YEARS AGO.
THERE ARE PLACES NOW WHERE THE
TRUMP CAMPAIGN IS GOING TO HAVE
TO PUT IN TIME AND MONEY TO HOLD
WHERE IT IS BECAUSE IT WON BY
THE NARROW MARGIN IN 2016 IN
JUST A FEW STATES.
>> RIGHT.
WE SHOULDN’T BE TALKING ABOUT
ARKANSAS.
WE SHOULDN’T BE TALKING ABOUT
IOWA WHEN IT COMES TO FORMER
VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN’S CHANCES
OF WINNING THERE.
THE FACT THAT WE ARE SHOWS THAT
AT LEAST AT THIS POINT IN TIME,
PRESIDENT TRUMP IS IN TROUBLE IN
THOSE STATES.
I THINK IT WAS -- TIME HAS
BECOME ELASTIC, BUT I THINK IT
WAS LAST WEEK OR A COUPLE OF
WEEKS AGO WHERE I SAID PRESIDENT
TRUMP IS PLAYING INTO JOE
BIDEN’S HANDS.
AND I THINK THESE POLLS ARE
BEARING OUT WHAT I WAS SAYING.
WHAT I MEANT BY THAT WAS VICE
PRESIDENT BIDEN STARTED UP HIS
CAMPAIGN TALKING ABOUT FIGHTING
FOR THE SOUL OF AMERICA.
FIGHTING FOR WHO WE ARE AS A
NATION AND WHAT WE WANT TO SEE
FROM A PRESIDENT.
AND WHAT WE HAVE SEEN SINCE THE
KILLING OF GEORGE FLOYD IN
MINNEAPOLIS TWO WEEKS AGO, TWO
WEEKS, A DAY AGO, IS A PRESIDENT
WHO SEEMINGLY IS OUT OF CONTROL,
OUT OF TOUCH GOING ALL THE WAY
FROM HIS RESPONSE TO THE
CORONAVIRUS PANDEMIC OR LACK
THEREOF, RIGHT THROUGH TO THE
UNREST AROUND THE COUNTRY OVER
THE KILLING OF GEORGE FLOYD.
HE DOESN’T SEEM IN TOUCH WITH
THE COUNTRY.
>> ALL WITH OUR USUAL CAVEATS
THAT 4 1/2 MONTHS IS AN ABSOLUTE
LIFETIME TO ELECTION DAY.
JONATHAN CAPEHART, JEREMY
PETERS, GREAT TO HAVE BOTH OF
YOU WITH US.
THAT DOES IT FOR US ON "MORNING
