>> THIS EVENING ON THE ROCK
NEWMAN SHOWN, A LOOK AT LEGENDS
CONNECTED TO THE DMV.
FIRST, FIND OUT ABOUT THE NEGRO
LEAGUE LEGENDS HALL OF FAME
STORIES, ARTIFACTS AND UPCOMING
EVENTS FROM FOUNDER DWAYNE SIMS.
THEN, AUTHOR GAYLE WALD IS HERE
WITH HER BOOK ABOUT BLUES LEGEND
ROSETTA THARPE WHO HAD THE
BIGGEST WEDDING THAT D.C. HAS
EVER SEEN!
THAT'S COMING UP, RIGHT NOW ON
THE ROCK NEWMAN SHOW!
♪
♪
♪
♪
>> WELCOME TO THE ROCK NEWMAN
SHOW FROM THE CAMPUS OF HISTORIC
HOWARD UNIVERSITY LOCATED IN THE
NATION'S CAPITAL.
I'M ROCK NEWMAN, AND IT IS MY
DESIRE TO INSPIRE YOU WITH
PERSONAL STORIES OF
EXTRAORDINARY ACHIEVEMENT.
THE MANHATTANS, THE HOMESTEAD
GRAYS AND THE SENATORS WERE ALL
WASHINGTON TEAMS THAT PLAYED FOR
THE NEGRO BASEBALL LEAGUES.
THEY ARE PART OF A TRADITION
THAT, WHILE ENDING IN LATE
1940S, STILL RESONATES WITH US
TODAY.
HERE TO TELL US MORE IS DWAYNE
SIMS, FOUNDER OF THE NEGRO
LEAGUE LEGENDS HALL OF FAME.
>> LET'S PLAY BALL!
>> YEAH.
>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING
US.
YOU KNOW, MAN, THIS IS A SUBJECT
MATTER THAT YOU WELL KNOW IS SO
NEAR AND DEAR TO MY HEART.
AND WE TALKED ABOUT THE
CONNECTION TO THE DMV.
AND YOU, ALONG WITH COORDINATION
WITH SOME OTHERS, HAVE REALLY
GONE BACK, TRACED THE ROOTS OF
THE NEGRO LEAGUE AND THE TEAMS
IN THE DMV.
YOU HAVE A BOOK THAT I SEE I'M
EXCITED ABOUT EVEN SEEING IT.
BECAUSE I KNOW HE WAS THE
OFFICIAL PHOTOGRAPHER FOR HOWARD
UNIVERSITY FOR MANY YEARS.
>> THAT IS CORRECT.
1961.
>> 1961.
LET'S GET INTO THIS.
TELL US ABOUT THIS ORGANIZATION,
THIS HALL OF FAME, THIS
INCREDIBLE JACKET OVER HERE, THE
NEGRO LEAGUE BASEBALL.
>> BASEBALL MUSEUM.
>> BASEBALL MUSEUM.
>> THAT'S OUT OF KANSAS CITY.
THEY GAVE ALL THE PLAYERS THEY
COULD FIND THAT CAME TO KANSAS
CITY AND GAVE THEM THAT JACKET.
WHAT'S SO SPECIAL ABOUT THAT
JACKET, COLLECTING IT LATER, I
HAD THE NEGRO LEAGUE PLAYERS
SIGN, THEY AUTOGRAPHED INSIDE
THE JACKET.
THE YOUNG LADY SAID, DWAYNE, YOU
GOT TO USE A FABRIC PEN ON THAT,
SO I DID IT IN SILVER.
I GOT ABOUT 30 AUTOGRAPHS IN
THERE.
>> THAT'S FANTASTIC.
I DROVE CROSS COUNTRY FOR RG3s
WEDDING.
WHEN I KEPT SEEING THE SIGN I
WAS GETTING CLOSER TO KANSAS
CITY, THERE IS NO WAY IN THE
WORLD I'M GOING PAST HERE AND
NOT STOP AT THE MUSEUM.
>> THAT IS CORRECT.
>> WHAT AN ABSOLUTE TREAT.
>> AND WE NEED MORE.
THE HISTORY, HISTORICAL VALUE OF
BASEBALL IN THE COMMUNITY WAS
LIKE SATURDAY, THE JUTE BOX,
BILLY HOLIDAY IN BALTIMORE, WITH
THE GIANTS.
THEN ON SUNDAY THEY WENT TO
CHURCH.
WE ARE CHURCH PEOPLE.
AND THEN ABOUT 2:00 THEY WOULD
LINE UP GOING TO THE BASEBALL
GAME.
>> SO WE WOULD GO TO CHURCH.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> EARLY MASS, AT MY HOUSE.
>> OKAY.
>> WE WOULD GO TO CHURCH AND
THEN ONE OF MY JOYS AS A 5 AND 6
AND 7-YEAR-OLD KID WAS GOING
WITH THE MANAGER OF THE BRANDY
WINE AC.
>> GET OUT OF HERE, WOW.
>> GETTING IN THE CAR WITH HIM,
COMING UP PENNSYLVANIA AVENUE
WHAT WAS CALLED THE SPORTS
CENTER.
>> OKAY.
>> AND COMING IN TO THE SPORTS
CENTER AND PICKING UP THE BAT
AND FEELING AND SMELLING THE
GLOVES, MAN.
THE TRADITION WE HAD, THOSE
SUNDAY TRADITIONS, GRAYS PARK,
HOSTING THE CLINTON ROCKETS, THE
TEAM.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> THE TIGERS.
THE BRAVES.
>> THE BRAVES AND THE FEARED
WASHINGTON BLACK SOX.
INSTANT COACH, THE MEMORABLE
JONES.
>> ONE OF THE THINGS I HAVE
RECOGNIZED ESPECIALLY WITH THE
NEGRO LEGENDS HALL OF FAME, THEY
SAY DWAYNE, THESE PLAYERS
WEREN'T THE MAJOR PLAYERS.
I SAID EXCUSE ME, EVERY PLAYER I
HAVE MET IN INTERVIEW CAME FROM
THE SAND LOCK LEAGUE FIRST.
YOU NEED TO INCLUDE THAT, THAT'S
YOUR BEGINNING.
BEFORE JACKIE WENT, HE PLAYED IN
THE LEAGUE.
>> ABSOLUTELY.
>> WHEN WE TALK ABOUT OUR
HISTORY, THE DEVELOPMENT OF
EDUCATION WITHIN OUR
COMMUNITIES, WE NEED TO TALK
ABOUT ALL THE FACTS, PUT THEM
ALL IN ORDER.
THERE IS A TIME LINE WE CAN
FOLLOW.
THAT'S WHAT'S STILL MISSING.
WE GOT A JUMP HERE, JUMP HERE.
>> I GO BACK TO THE COLORED
PROFESSIONAL LEAGUE OF 1909.
RUTHERFORD JONES, WASHINGTON
GIANTS, I WAS TOLD THEY WEREN'T
ORGANIZED.
I HAVE RECEIPTS THEY DONATED
MONEY BACK TO THE YNCA.
>> I SAW, I DON'T KNOW IF WE
HAVE THOSE, I DON'T KNOW IF WE
HAVE THOSE OR NOT.
>> RIGHT, RIGHT.
>> THERE IS A LETTER SIGNED,
HANDWRITTEN.
>> CORRECT.
>> INCORPORATING THE WASHINGTON
GIANTS WHICH PLAYED.
>> RIGHT HERE, HOWARD UNIVERSITY
PUBLISHING LETTERHEAD ON IT,
WHICH IS THIS NICE BEAUTIFUL
GREEN OLIVE PAPER.
OKAY.
>> SO THAT GOES BACK TO --
>> 1909, 1911, 1906.
DOCUMENTED.
WE HAVE THE LETTERS WITH THE
ENVELOPE WHERE THEY ASKED MATT
STRONG, CUBAN EX-GIANT BACK IN
1911 WAS ASKING RUTHERFORD, I
WANTED TO KNOW IF YOUR TEAM WAS
COLORED OR WHITE.
INTERESTING CONVERSATION.
I HAVE ANOTHER LETTER, YOU NEVER
THEY WERE GOING FOR COLORED TO
PLAY BASEBALL IN THE NATION'S
CAPITAL.
WE NEED TO TELL THE STORY OF THE
DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA.
>> AND SOME OF THE BASEBALL
HISTORY IS LOST.
LIKE MANY NOW --
[LAUGHTER]
>> COME ON, BRING IT HOME.
>> I GUARANTEE YOU THERE IS
FOLKS WHO HAVE NO UNDERSTANDING
OR APPRECIATION FOR THE ROLE
THAT BASEBALL PLAYS IN THE
SURROUNDING COMMUNITIES.
THE LEAGUE THAT THE WASHINGTON
BLACK SOX WON THE CHAMPIONSHIP
AND WAS CALLED THE TRI-STATE
LEAGUE BECAUSE THERE WAS A TEAM,
D.C., MARYLAND AND VIRGINIA.
>> AND THEY STILL PLAY TODAY.
WHEN I DO MY ANNUAL BASEBALL
GAME, THE DESCENDANTS TALK ABOUT
THEIR UNCLES, FATHERS AND
GRANDFATHERS EVEN TO THE
GAILVILLE HOT SOX.
THIS GLOVE I HAVE HERE.
>> OLD CATCHER'S MIT.
FROM THE TIME I WAS IN LITTLE
LEAGUE UNTIL HIGH SCHOOL, I WAS
CATCHER.
THE TOOLS OF IGNORANCE, BUT WE
CONTROLLED IT.
>> PATRICIA FERGUSON JONES
DONATED THAT TO ME AFTER HEARING
WHAT I WAS DOING AND NOT TO
DONATE FOR ME TO GIVE AWAY TO
SELL, BUT TO DONATE TO SHARE.
IT'S A PHYSICAL ITEM, THAT'S A
TREASURE.
BECAUSE JONES, SR., THAT WAS HIS
ACTUAL GLOVE.
WHEN I GO ON-LINE, I DON'T FIND
NOTHING.
I KNOW LISTENING RIGHT NOW, YOU
KNOW WHAT, MY UNCLE PLAYED FOR
THAT TEAM.
WE DON'T TALK ABOUT IT.
BASEBALL WAS THE ECONOMICS IN
OUR COMMUNITY.
>> ABSOLUTELY.
1920s, '30s, '40s.
WE HAD MORE FAME AT GAMES THAN
THE MAJOR LEAGUE.
THE MAJOR LEAGUE LEARNED A LOT
FROM THE OLD SCHOOL BALL.
THEY WERE STEALING BASES IN
MAJOR LEAGUE IN THE EARLY BASES.
THIS IS PART OF AMERICAN
BASEBALL HISTORY.
>> THAT'S WHAT IT IS.
>> IT'S PART OF THE FABRIC OF
AMERICA WHICH IS INCLUSIVE OF
ALL.
>> LET'S TALK ABOUT THIS A
LITTLE BIT.
IN TERMS OF THE FABRIC OF THE
COMMUNITY --
>> YES.
>> AS YOU SAID, THERE WOULD BE
CHURCH --
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> FOLKS WOULD COME HOME, GET
TOGETHER AND COME TO THE SAND
LOT BASEBALL LEAGUE AND THE
BASEBALL GAMES WERE ALWAYS
PLAYED ON A FIELD --
>> YES.
>> THAT HAD A BEER JOINT, BEER
GARDEN, SOME KIND OF RESTAURANT
THAT PEOPLE COULD GO TO BEFORE
AND AFTERWARDS.
THOSE PLACES WOULD ALWAYS SERVE
YOUR FRIED CHICKEN, FRIED
CHICKEN SANDWICHES.
>> CHICKEN ON A STICK.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
AND A LITTLE SMALL PLACE LIKE
WHERE I GREW UP, A RURAL AREA IN
MARYLAND, THERE WOULD BE ON ANY
GIVEN SUNDAY OVER A THOUSAND
PEOPLE ATTENDING THIS GAME.
THE BLEACHERS MIGHT HAD HELD A
HUNDRED, BUT THEN THEY WERE
PACKED AROUND.
AND LONG BEFORE THE SO-CALLED
TAILGATING.
FOLKS WOULD BE BRINGING THE
GOODS.
IT TRULY WAS A PART OF THE
COMMUNITY THAT PEOPLE JUST SO
MUCH LOOKED FORWARD TO.
>> THAT'S WHY THEY CALL IT
AMERICA'S GAME.
YOU THINK ABOUT IT, NOT
BASKETBALL, NOT FOOTBALL,
BASEBALL WAS IN OUR COMMUNITIES.
WE HAD OWNERS.
PEOPLE OF COLOR WHO ACTUALLY
OWNED A TEAM.
THEY HAD TO MANAGE AND KEEP THE
BOOKS.
ACCOUNTANT BUSINESSES BEING
HANDLED.
RUTHERFORD JONES BUILT
BUILDINGS, A BARBERSHOP.
WE NEED TO TELL THESE UNTOLD
STORIES, NOT BY SUPERHEROS, NOT
BY THE FAMOUS, BY THE PEOPLE IN
OUR COMMUNITY THAT IMPACTED OUR
LIVES GROWING UP, THE CHILDREN.
EVERY TIME I LOOK AROUND, I HAVE
GRAND KID NOW, THEY LOOK AT ME,
I SAID YOU ARE GOING TO KNOW
THIS.
I SPENT A LOT OF TIME LEARNING
WHAT I DIDN'T KNOW.
>> WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THE
NEGRO LEAGUE, ONE, THIS
GENTLEMAN'S NAME I WILL MENTION
NOW, HE PLAYED, AND THEN LATER
ON HE TRULY BECAME LEGENDARY AS
A COACHING MANAGER, JONES OF THE
WASHINGTON BLACK SOX.
IN YOUR STUDIES, LET'S REFLECT
ON HIM.
>> I MET ALBERT, ROCK GREEN.
>> ABSOLUTELY.
>> LEROY SHOTGUN, THEY TALK
ABOUT BEING COMPETITIVE, FOR
NUMBER ONE.
WHEN YOU LOOK AT IT TO ME, I
INTERPRET IT THEY WERE
PROFESSIONALS BECAUSE YOU HAVE
TO HAVE THE SKILL.
BASEBALL IS NOT A GAME YOU PICK
UP AND THROW IT AND HIT IT.
THERE IS SCIENCE BEHIND IT.
>> IT'S CERTAINLY BEEN SAID, THE
HARDEST THING TO DO IS TO HIT.
BASEBALL COMING AT YOU 95 MILES
AN HOUR, SOMETIMES YOU DUNK
DOWN.
THAT'S ONE OF THE HARDEST
ATHLETIC FEATS.
>> YOU ARE NOT AFRAID OF THE
FOOTBALL, NOT AFRAID OF THROWING
A BASKETBALL, BUT THAT BASEBALL
AT 90 MILES PER HOUR.
THAT'S THE INTERESTING THING,
BACK IN THOSE DAYS, YOU COULDN'T
CROWD THE PLATE.
THEY DIDN'T HAVE THIS WHAT'S
LEGAL, ILLEGAL, YOU GOT TOO
CLOSE BY YOUR EAR, YOU WERE BACK
OFF THAT PLATE.
THE THING IS, WHAT THEY WORE WAS
THE HAT, A LITTLE CAP, A LITTLE
HARD PIECE JUST IN CASE BECAUSE
IT WAS LEGAL.
IF YOU GOT TOO CLOSE, I CAN HIT
YOU.
>> SO YOU MENTIONED ALBERT.
ALBERT PLAYED FIRST BASE.
>> AND HE LOVED TO PITCH.
>> WITH THE WASHINGTON BLACK
SOX.
>> THAT'S CORRECT.
>> YOU MENTIONED ROCK GREEN.
>> YES.
>> OKAY.
SO ROCK GREEN FROM SPIN GARDEN
HIGH SCHOOL, SEE STILL LIVING?
>> NOT SURE, NOT SURE.
>> SO ROCK GREEN WAS THE
PRECURSOR TO RICKY HENDERSON.
IS THE STYLE OF RICKY HENDERSON,
RICKY HENDERSON HAD A LITTLE
MORE FLASH.
BUT ROCK GREEN WAS SO SMOOTH,
MAN.
HE WAS SO -- EVERYTHING HE DID
WAS WITH SUCH INCREDIBLE GRAYS.
AND YOU MENTIONED ALBERT.
SO ONE OF MY EXPERIENCES AS A
16-YEAR-OLD PLAYING WITH THE
WASHINGTON BLACK SOX, I'M OUT
HERE IN THE COUNTRY, I'M PLAYING
WITH THEM, PLAYING HIGH SCHOOL
BALL.
WHEN JONES CAME OUT AND ASKED MY
MOM AND DAD IF HE COULD ALLOW ME
TO PLAY, IF I COULD PLAY WITH
THE WASHINGTON BLACK SOX, MAN,
THAT WAS THE BEGINNING OF ME
THINKING THAT I MIGHT BE
SOMEBODY.
>> YOU HAD SOME SKILLS.
>> THAT I COULD PLAY WITH THE
WASHINGTON BLACK SOX.
>> CORRECT, CORRECT.
>> I ALMOST, YOU KNOW, I DIDN'T
GO THROUGH ANY KIND OF FORMAL
RITE OF PASSAGE, BUT I'M TELLING
YOU, ONE DAY WE WERE PLAYING
AGAINST THE VISTA YANKEES, TOUGH
GAME, MAN, REAL TIGHT, REAL
TIGHT, 3-0 RUN WHERE THEY WERE.
AND THE BASES WERE LOADED.
AND WE WERE DOWN BY TWO RUNS.
BLACK SOX WERE DOWN BY 2 RUNS.
I GOT UP, THE LEFT-HANDED
PITCHER FOR THE VISTA YANKEES,
HE PLAYED SOME MINOR LEAGUE
BALL.
I HIT A LINE DRIVE IN THE GAP
BETWEEN RIGHT FIELD AND CENTER
FIELD.
>> GOT YOU.
>> NINTH INNING, SO ALL THREE
RUNS SCORED.
>> WOW.
>> AND THESE LEGENDS, DOFEY,
HOWARD GREER.
>> WOW.
>> ALEXANDER, THEY WERE ALL
COMING TO LIFT ME UP.
>> WOW.
>> THAT WAS PERHAPS MY INITIAL
PHASE OF FEELING LIKE I HAD
BECOME A MAN.
>> WOW, WOW.
IT'S KIND OF LIKE MANHOOD AT THE
TIME.
I DIDN'T REALIZE IN MY RESEARCH
THAT SOME OF THE HIGH SCHOOLS IN
THE NATION'S CAPITAL HAD
BASEBALL TEAMS.
WHEN I STARTED RESEARCHING, THIS
WAS 1999, 2000, I COULDN'T FIND
ANYTHING IN THE LIBRARY.
NOW WE HAVE THE INTERNET, BUT
YOU STILL GOT TO RESEARCH.
EVERYTHING THAT YOU READ IS NOT
ALWAYS TRUE.
AND THE THING IS IT'S NOT LIKE
OUR REAL STORY.
THAT'S WHAT I HAVE BEEN REACHING
OUT, I HOPE SOME OF THE FOLKS
WATCHING REACH OUT TO YOU.
I'M LOOKING.
EVERYBODY'S STORY IS IMPORTANT
TO THEM AND THEIR COMMUNITY.
READ ABOUT THE HISFULLY OUR --
HISTORY IN OUR COMMUNITY.
>> I MENTIONED ROCK GREEN WAS
ONE OF THE GREAT COACHES THERE,
ONE OF THE LEGENDS IN THIS TOWN,
COACH DAVE BROWN.
COACH DAVE BROWN, IN ADDITION TO
BEING A GREAT COACH, INTRODUCED
ME TO MY FIRST MEAL AT
CHRISTFIELD'S RESTAURANT.
HE WAS ABSOLUTELY A LEGENDARY
COACH.
HE HAD SOME GREAT TEAMS, MAN.
TALKING ABOUT, ONE OF THE GUYS
THAT PLAYED ON THE BASEBALL TEAM
AS DUNBAR WENT ON TO PLAY
FOOTBALL AT OHIO.
>> NOBODY TALKS ABOUT THIS
HISTORY.
>> WE ARE DOING A HALF HOUR
HERE.
YOU KNOW WE COULD BE DOING AN
HOUR.
TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE
BOOK YOU HAVE HERE.
>> VERY GOOD, VERY GOOD.
OKAY.
THIS BOOK WITH THE WORK, THE
AMERICAN HISTORY MUSEUM WAS
SMITHSONIAN, THE PHOTOGRAPHER
AND THE FAMILY, AND I CAPTURED,
I ACTUALLY SCANNED, THEY ALLOWED
ME WITH PERMISSION, YOU GOT TO
DO THE RIGHT THING WHEN YOU
START PUTTING THINGS OUT, THEY
ALLOWED ME TO HAVE THE EMPTY
SCAN FROM THE FILM.
SO SOME OF THESE PICTURES HAVE
NEVER BEEN SEEN BEFORE.
HE'S A PICTURE OF SKERLOCK WITH
THE TYPE OF CAMERA HE USED.
YOU CAN'T DO THAT WITH A DIGITAL
CAMERA TODAY.
YOU CAN'T CAPTURE SOME OF THOSE
PICTURES.
THIS IS A GREAT ONE.
I WILL SKIP THIS ONE.
REMEMBER GRIFFITH STADIUM.
>> LOOK AT THAT.
THAT'S HOW IMPORTANT THE
BASEBALL GAME WAS.
YOU COME OUT IN THAT SUNDAY
BEST, MAN.
>> AND A FUR COAT IN THE STADIUM
SITTING ON BLEACHERS.
WON'T HAPPEN TODAY.
>> YES, YES.
THAT'S SOMETHING, SO LOST AND
FORGOTTEN.
WHAT ELSE DO WE HAVE HERE?
>> RIGHT HERE WE DO HAVE ANDREW
FOSSER RECOGNIZED IN 1920,
ACTUALLY, I CALLED HIM THE
FOUNDING FATHER OF THE NATIONAL
NEGRO LEAGUE.
IT'S IMPORTANT THE NATIONAL
NEGRO LEAGUE, THE NATIONAL
AMERICAN LEAGUE, THEN YOU HAVE
THE OTHER LEAGUES, ALSO THE
ATLANTIC AND SOUTHERN LEAGUE.
HEDGEBERG, YOU HAVE A LEAGUE
THERE.
ONE OF THE MAJOR LEAGUE,
WASHINGTON.
WHEN I DID THIS, NELSON, THE
ARTIST, DID A STAMP.
WOW, THIS IS REALLY INTERESTING.
SO I'M STILL RESEARCHING AND I
FOUND A DESCENDANT OF THE FOSTER
FAMILY HERE.
WILLIAM FOSTER WAS THE BROTHER
OF LOU FOSTER.
BOTH OF THESE GENTLEMEN, THE
COLORED PROFESSIONAL LEAGUE OR
INDUCTED INTO THE BASEBALL HALL
OF FAME NOW.
WE DON'T TALK ABOUT THAT.
SO THAT'S CREATING SOMETHING
QUALITY.
SO WE HAVE TO DO QUALITY.
THIS IS THE HALL OF FAME THAT
THE FAMILY SAID OKAY.
>> BEFORE, YOU MENTIONED THE
HOMESTEAD GRAYS.
>> HOW ABOUT COOL PAPA BEAR.
>> HE WAS SO FAST, HE HAD A LINE
DRIVE UP THE MIDDLE, SLID INTO
SECOND BASE.
>> THAT IS SO TRUE.
BUT HERE'S SOMETHING THAT'S
REALLY INTERESTING.
WE TALK ABOUT THOSE PLAYERS AND
SOMETIMES WE MISS THE OTHER
PLAYERS THAT ARE PLAYING.
CLARENCE IS REAL, FROM ROCKVILLE
MARYLAND, LOCAL, PLAYED FOR
WASHINGTON HOMESTEAD GRAYS.
THAT WAS SO IMPORTANT.
I FOUND NAMES OF PLAYERS, HE
CAPTURED THESE IMAGES IN MOTION
WITH THAT -- I GIVE A LOT OF
CREDIT.
CAN I LEAVE OUT SAM LACY?
CAN I LEAVE OUT THE WRITERS THAT
WROTE THE STORY, THE PICTURES
THAT WERE CAPTURED.
THAT'S OUR REFERENCE TO OUR
HISTORY ACROSS THE BOARD.
AND THEN TO KNOW THE HISTORY
HERE AT HOWARD UNIVERSITY
CAMPUS, ONE OF MY LETTERS HAS A
DEAL BEING DONE IN 1911 SAYING
WE'LL SPLIT THE PROCEEDS FROM
THE GAME ABOUT THE BUSINESS.
>> YEAH, YEAH.
BECAUSE BASEBALL, IN ADDITION TO
IT BEING A PILLAR OF THE
COMMUNITY, THERE WAS BUSINESS.
I THINK AT BRANDY WINE, I
REMEMBER, WE MIGHT HAVE HAD TO
PAY A DOLLAR TO GET TO THE GAME.
BUT THEN YOU DIDN'T REALLY FIND
TURNING PEOPLE AWAY.
THEY CAME UP TO THE GATE.
AND THIS HERE, WHAT DO WE HAVE
HERE?
>> THAT'S FROM THE COLLECTION.
ACTUALLY, IT HAS AUTOGRAPHS FROM
BUCKIE WALLACE.
THEN I HAVE WILLY RANDOLPH, HE
CAME FROM HERE.
BUT HE ALSO GOT PLAY A FEW GAMES
WITH THE HOMESTEAD GRAYS.
PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND WITH THE
WASHINGTON BLACK SOX, WHEN THEY
WERE MISSING PLAYERS FOR THE
BALTIMORE GIANTS, HOMESTEAD
GRAYS, THEY WOULD SEE JONES.
AND EVEN IN THOSE DAYS WITH
MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL, THEY
DON'T PUT REFERENCES.
I MET A PLAYER FROM MARYLAND, HE
WAS TELLING ME A STORY, VERY
BRIEFLY, HE FOUND OUT HE COULD
PLAY MAJOR LEAGUE, HE CHANGED
HIS NAME TO A CUBAN NAME.
>> HERE ON HOWARD UNIVERSITY,
THE COACH THAT CAME HERE THAT
WAS A MAJOR LEAGUE PLAYER,
BEFORE HE BECAME A MAJOR LEAGUE
PLAYER, HE PLAYED IN THE SAND
LOTS IN NORTH CAROLINA.
HE HITCHHIKED FROM NORTH
CAROLINA TO A TRYOUT IN
BALTIMORE.
>> OH, COME ON.
>> HE WAS SO OUTSTANDING, HE GOT
SIGNED TO A MAJOR LEAGUE
CONTRACT.
HE LATER BECAME A MEMBER OF THE
WASHINGTON SENATORS.
HE WAS THE LAST WASHINGTON
SENATOR TO HIT OVER 300.
HIS NAME IS CHARLES CHUCK
HINTON.
>> I MET CHUCK.
>> HE COACHED ME FOR A FEW
YEARS.
AND IT WAS 1962, HE PLAYED IN
THE ALL STAR GAME.
>> WOW.
>> HE WAS NUMBER 4 IN BATTING
THAT YEAR.
AGAIN, THE SAND LOTS.
WHAT THE SAND LOTS DID AND
COMMUNITY BASEBALL HAD DONE,
MAURY WILLS COMPETED AGAINST MY
OLDER BROTHER.
THEY PLAYED BASEBALL AGAINST
EACH OTHER AND RAN TRACK.
RIGHT HERE, CORDOZA HIGH SCHOOL,
GREAT LOS ANGELES DODGERS
SHORTSTOP.
>> COULD NEVER END THIS STORY.
I GOT GIVE YOU THIS.
>> AS IN GIVE ME THIS OR SHOW ME
THIS?
>> YOU CAN KEEP THIS.
THIS IS SIGNED BY JAMES JAKE
SANDERS WHO WAS WITH BRIAN, FROM
BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA, THEY TELL
THE STORY ABOUT WHEN WILLY MAYS
WAS DOWN THERE, CAME DOWN ON THE
FIELD, A LOT OF GREAT BALL
PLAYERS CAME OUT OF BIRMINGHAM.
A LOT OF THE PLAYERS CAME UP TO
PLAY FOR OUR TEAMS HERE.
THIS IS JAKE SANDERS, PLAYED FOR
KANSAS CITY IN '57.
OF COURSE, ON THE BACK OF THE
BASEBALL, I HAD TO PUT A LITTLE
HISTORY.
AND THAT'S WHAT JACKIE ROBINSON
BREAKING IN THE MODERN ERA OF
BASEBALL.
WE HAVE BEEN IN MANY PLACES TO
DOCUMENT THIS.
>> THIS IS VERY MUCH GOING TO BE
CHERISHED.
YOU SPOKE ABOUT THE KANSAS CITY
MONARCHS.
>> CORRECT.
>> SO WHAT THAT MAKES ME THINK
ABOUT WAS A TOURING TEAM OF
OUTSTANDING BLACK BALL PLAYERS,
THE INDIANAPOLIS.
THEY HAD A BASEMENT THAT WAS
MAGICAL.
NATURE BOY WILLIAMS.
>> YOU WANT TO SEE NATURE BOY?
>> YOU DON'T HAVE THAT.
>> RIGHT AT GRIFFITH STADIUM.
>> HE PLAYED A QUARTER MILE FROM
WHERE I GREW UP CALLED WILMA'S
COURT.
>> RIGHT HERE.
>> WOW!
>> I CALL IT SACRED GROUND.
>> YES, INDEED.
>> USED TO GO INTO THE BACK
GATE.
I MET A FAMILY GOING OUT THE
BACK GATE, THE STADIUM WAS SO
FULL.
RECENTLY I HAVE SEEN SOME FILM,
AND THEY SHOW THAT THE STADIUM
WAS INTEGRATED.
AFTER ALL THESE STORIES I HEARD,
YOU GOT TO DO YOUR HOMEWORK.
THIS IS YOUR AUTOGRAPHED BOOK.
THIS IS YOUR BOOK.
>> ALL RIGHT, ALL RIGHT.
>> TWO GIFTS.
>> THAT'S WONDERFUL.
YOU GOT EVENTS COMING UP.
FOLKS WHO MIGHT BE INTERESTED.
>> YES.
>> WHAT IS OUR OLD TIME
RELIGION, BASEBALL.
>> I HAVE A SPECIAL INVITATION
FOR YOU, PERSONALLY YOU,
AUGUST 18, PRINCE GEORGES
STADIUM.
THE HOME OF THE BAY SOX.
I HAVE MY EAST WEST GAME,
ACTUALLY, COMMEMORATES THE 1933
GAME, THE NEGRO LEAGUE ALL STAR
GAME.
WILLIAM FOSTER, ANDREW FOSTER,
BROTHER PLAYED IN THE FIRST ONE
AS A PITCHER AND THEY WON.
I WOULD LIKE FOR YOU TO COME OUT
AND BE MY GUEST TO THROW OUT THE
FIRST PITCH.
>> I MIGHT BE IN GOOD ENOUGH
SHAPE TO STOKE ONE.
>> 8:00.
WE DONATE THE TICKETS AWAY FREE.
THEY WANT TO CALL YOU.
>> IF I GOT SOMETHING IN MY
SCHEDULE AT A CONFLICTS, I'M
CHANGING WHAT'S ON MY SCHEDULE.
>> NOT LIKE SEEING A LITTLE KID
THAT PLAYS SOCCER AND TOLD HIS
FATHER, DADDY, I LIKE THIS GAME.
CAN I PLAY BASEBALL?
>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING
US.
>> BLESS YOU.
THANK YOU AGAIN.
>> TAKE CARE.
GRIFFITH STADIUM WAS HOME TO THE
HOMESTEAD GRAYS.
AND IT ALSO HAS A DEEP
CONNECTION WITH BLUES LEGEND
ROSETTA THARPE.
HERE TO TELL US MORE IS GAYLE
WALD, AUTHOR OF THE BOOK,
"SHOUT, SISTER, SHOUT!: THE
UNTOLD STORY OF ROCK-AND-ROLL
TRAILBLAZER SISTER ROSETTA
THARPE."
>> WELCOME.
THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.
>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
>> BEFORE WE GET INTO A
DISCUSSION, ELVIS PRESLEY WAS
NOT THE ORIGINATOR OF ROCK 'N
ROLL, NEITHER WAS CHUCK BARRY.
LITTLE RICH SAID HE CAME BEFORE
ELVIS PRESLEY.
SO HE WASN'T THE ORIGINATOR
EITHER.
NEITHER WAS JERRY LEE LEWIS.
I WANT TO YOU TAKE A LOOK RIGHT
NOW AT WHO WAS THE REAL
ORIGINATOR AND WHAT WE'LL CALL
FROM THIS DAY FORWARD THE QUEEN
OF ROCK 'N ROLL.
LET'S TAKE A LOOK.
♪ UP ABOVE MY HEAD, THERE'S
MUSIC IN THE AIR ♪
♪ UP ABOVE MY HEAD, MUSIC IN THE
AIR ♪
♪
♪ IN MY ROOM, MUSIC EVERYWHERE ♪
♪ IN MY HOME, MUSIC IN THE AIR ♪
♪ UP ABOVE MY HEAD ♪
>> THAT WAS ONE BOLD, FULL OF
LIFE, LARGER THAN LIFE WOMAN.
>> YES.
>> WHAT MADE YOU SO INTERESTED
THAT YOU HAVE PRODUCED THIS
INCREDIBLE BOOK?
>> I SAW THAT CLIP MAYBE 20
YEARS AGO.
I WAS LIKE WHO IS THAT.
AND HOW COME I HAVE NEVER HEARD
OF HER.
AND THEN WHEN I ASKED AROUND, I
WASN'T THE ONLY ONE WHO NEVER
HEARD OF HER.
SO I STARTED DIGGING.
AND THE BOOK CAME OUT IN 2007.
AND I WAS LUCKY.
THERE WAS VERY LITTLE WRITTEN
ABOUT HER THAT WAS PRESERVED.
I WAS ABLE TO TALK TO THE LAST,
PEOPLE ALIVE WHO WORKED WITH HER
BEFORE THEY DIED.
SO, YEAH, IT WAS IMPORTANT TO
GET THOSE -- THAT ORAL HISTORY,
THOSE MEMORIES.
>> AND ROSETTA THARPE PASSED
AWAY IN '57.
>> HE WAS '57.
PASSED AWAY IN 1973.
>> LIKE TOO MANY OF THE
ENTERTAINERS OF THAT ERA, SHE
PASSED AWAY IN SOME MISERY.
>> I DON'T SEE HER STORY AS
INCREDIBLY TRAGIC.
SHE DIED OF PROBABLY A STROKE
RELATED TO DIABETES.
SHE HAD THAT ILLNESS.
AND SHE HAD A LEG AMPUTATED
TOWARD THE END OF HER LIFE AND
STILL PERFORMING.
THE THING THAT MAKES HER LOOK
TRAGIC, NO ONE PURCHASED A
GRAVESTONE.
PEOPLE ATTENDED HER FUNERAL.
HER FRIENDS CAME TO THE FUNERAL.
I DON'T SEE HER LIFE AS TRAGIC,
WHICH IS ONE OF THE REASONS
SHE'S AN ATTRACTIVE FIGURE.
WE HAVE THESE STORIES ABOUT
TRAGIC WOMEN PERFORMERS.
SHE HAD A GREAT CAREER.
SHE WAS NEVER DEFINED BY ANY
PARTICULAR MAN WHO CONTROLLED
HER OR SHE HAD A GREAT CAREER.
>> SHE WAS A FORCE, ABSOLUTE
FORCE OF NATURE.
WHEN I MENTION SOME MISERY,
BECAUSE OF HER PERSONALITY,
BECAUSE OF HER LARGER THAN LIFE
PERSONA AND THE WAY SHE BEHAVED,
SHE REMINDED ME WHAT I'M GOING
TO SAY IS A CURRENT DAY
SIMILARITY DICK GREGORY.
IT DIDN'T MATTER OF DICK GREGORY
GOT IN $5 MILLION THIS WEEKEND,
A COUPLE OF WEEKENDS FROM NOW HE
WOULD BE BROKE, HE WOULD GIVE
MOST OF IT AWAY.
I THINK FROM ALL THAT I HAVE
BEEN ABLE TO GATHER ABOUT HER,
SHE REALLY LIVED IN A WAY WHERE
SHE WAS EXTRAORDINARILY
GENEROUS.
>> YES.
THE STORY ABOUT HER SEEING
LITTLE RICHARD AT A CLUB.
HE WAS RICHARD.
AND GIVING HIM $20 AND SAYING
YOU ARE GOING TO GO FAR, EACH ON
WORKING ON IT.
SO THAT STORY ITSELF IS
EXEMPLARY.
SHE WAS GENEROUS.
>> OKAY.
SO TAKE US INTO THE LIFE OF THIS
YET TO BE APPRECIATED AND
UNRECOGNIZED LEGEND.
>> SHE WAS BORN IN A TOWN CALLED
COTTON PLANT, ARKANSAS IN 1915.
HER PARENTS SPLIT UP WHEN SHE
WAS LITTLE.
SHE WAS RAISED -- THIS IS
IMPORTANT.
SHE WAS RAISED IN THE CHURCH OF
GOD AND CHRIST.
SHE CAME UP AT A TIME AND IN A
CHURCH WHERE SHE WAS ENCOURAGED
TO USE HER MUSICAL GIFT BECAUSE
HER COMMUNITY UNDERSTOOD IT AS A
GIFT.
SHE WAS ENCOURAGED IT TO USE IT
AND EXPRESS HERSELF NOT JUST ON
A PIANO AND A GUITAR.
HER MOTHER WAS A MANDALIN
PLAYER.
SO FROM AN EARLY AGE SHE BECAME
A STAR, A CELEBRITY IN HER
CHURCH.
SHE WAS IMPORTANT OF THE 40th
STREET CHURCH OF GOD AND CHRIST.
MOTHER AND DAUGHTER WENT ON THE
ROAD.
SHE DEVELOPED HER STYLE.
SHE HAD TO LEARN HOW TO -- AS A
PERFORMER IN THE CHURCH AND ALSO
AN EVANGELIZER, THAT WAS THE
POINT TO GET PEOPLE DRAWN IN.
SHE LEARNED HOW TO SING WITHOUT
MICROPHONES AND DEVELOPED THIS
FINGER PICKING STYLE ON HER
GUITAR THAT WAS EXCITING TO
WATCH.
THAT WAS THE BEGINNING OF HER
DEVELOPMENT UNTIL SHE MADE A
DECISION TO MOVE TO NEW YORK
CITY AND STARTED APPEARING
ONSTAGES.
THAT WAS NOT THE TRAJECTORY THAT
WAS EXPECTED.
SHE WAS MARRIED, SHE WAS
SUPPOSED TO STAY MARRIED AND IN
THE CHURCH.
SO GOING IN 1939, 1938, SHE GOES
TO NEW YORK CITY AND ON THE
STAGE OF THE COTTON CLUB AND
PERFORMS WITH CAP CALLAWAY.
THAT'S NOT WHAT A SANCTIFIED
GIRL WAS SUPPOSED TO BE DOING
WITH HER GIFT.
LIFE MAGAZINE RAN A PICTURE OF
HER SAYING SHE WAS A SWINGER OF
SPIRITUALS, SHE WOULD PLAY
SATURDAY NIGHT AND SUNDAY
MORNING.
SHE WAS CONTROVERSIAL.
STRADDLING.
SHE WAS THE FIRST PERSON TO
BRING GOSPEL MUSIC, WHICH WAS
STILL NEW IN THE '30s, TO
BRING GOSPEL MUSIC TO A WIDER
AUDIENCE OUTSIDE THE CHURCH AND
ALSO ON RECORDINGS.
SO SHE WAS REALLY, EVEN BEFORE
JACKSON, WHO OUTSHINED HER AND
THEY WERE FRIENDS, SHE WAS LIKE
GOSPEL'S FIRST SUPERSTAR.
THEN EVENTUALLY, I ARGUE IN THE
BOOK, WE COULD PLAY THE GAME
ABOUT WHO INVENTED THIS OR
WHATEVER, THERE IS A STRONG
CLAIM TO BE MADE THAT THE
ENERGY, YOU CAN SEE THIS IN HER
PERFORMANCE, THE ENERGY OF ROCK
'N ROLL, IT'S EXTROVERTED, THE
LOUDNESS, THE STYLE OF IT, ALL
OF THAT WAS BEING DEEPLY
INFLUENCED BY WHAT WAS GOING ON.
>> AND SHE WAS SOMEONE WHO WAS
THAT LARGER THAN LIFE
PERSONALITY.
YOU DON'T GET THE SENSE THAT
SHE'S APOLOGIZING FOR ANYTHING.
SHE'S OUT THERE.
AND SHE WOULD MAKE A JOKE ABOUT
SAYING THAT, YOU KNOW, THEY
WOULD SAY, OH, SHE PLAYS THE
GUITAR, GOOD FOR A WOMAN.
AND SHE WOULD BE LIKE, YEAH, FOR
A WOMAN, LET ME SHOW YOU.
AND THEN GO ON TO SET THE PLACES
ON FIRE.
>> THE MEN USED TO BE AFRAID TO
COME AFTER HER.
THEY DIDN'T WANT TO BE SHOWN UP
BY HER.
BUT SHE WOULD GET THAT, YOU PLAY
GOOD FOR A WOMAN.
>> I CAN'T IMAGINE THAT THIS
WASN'T SOMETHING THAT SHE WANTED
TO PUT HER STAMP.
YOU SEE OLD VIDEOS OF MEN,
CHOIRS, BACKING HER UP.
AND HER JUST OUT THERE DOING HER
THING.
THEY ARE ALL SUPPORTING HER.
>> IN A WAY IT'S NOT CLEAR WHO
HER INFLUENCES WOULD HAVE BEEN
AS A GUITARIST.
SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN THAT
GENERATION THAT MOVED FROM
ACOUSTIC TO ELECTRIC.
A LOT OF PEOPLE STRUMMING ON
GUITAR DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO USE AN
ELECTRIC INSTRUMENT.
SHE HAD THIS FINGER PICKING
STYLE, IT WAS UNCONVENTIONAL.
SHE DIDN'T USE A FRET.
SHE HAD AN UNUSUAL WAY OF
PLAYING.
SHE COULD TRANSLATE THAT TO
ELECTRIC GUITAR AND HAD A VOICE
THAT PRECEDED LIKE THE ELECTRIC
GUITARS.
>> I WAS STRUCK BY AN ARTICLE.
PART OF WHAT COMES THROUGH IS
HER -- WHAT I WANT TO SAY, SHE
HAD A GROUND-BREAKING
PERSONALITY.
ONE OF THE ARTICLES STARTS OFF
AS DESCRIBING HER AS SOMEONE WHO
WAS SO PROFICIENT AT WHAT SHE
DID, BUT WHO LIVED SORT OF A
LIFE OF LOVING AND GENEROSITY.
WHEN THEY DESCRIBED THAT LIFE OF
LOVING, THEY TALKED ABOUT HER
LONG RELATIONSHIP WITH MARRY
KNIGHT WHO WAS ASSUMED SHE HAD A
VERY PERSONAL, INTIMATE
RELATIONSHIP LONG BEFORE
ANYTHING WAS TO BE ACCEPTED OF
PEOPLE OF THE SAME SEX HAVING A
RELATIONSHIP.
IT'S AS IF SHE WENT FORWARD
NOBLY EVERY TIME.
>> LIKE A LOT OF BLUES WOMEN, A
LOT OF WOMEN IN MUSIC, SHE LED
AN UNCONVENTIONAL LIFE FOR A
WOMAN.
SHE WAS ALWAYS ON THE ROAD.
SHE NEVER HAD HER OWN CHILDREN,
I DON'T KNOW WHETHER THAT WAS BY
CHOICE OR NOT BY CHOICE.
I THINK THAT LIFE, THAT BEING ON
THE ROAD, THAT UNCONVENTIONAL
LIFE, ARE ABLE TO PURSUE
UNCONVENTIONAL PATHS.
THE WORLD IS SO OUTSIDE WHAT SHE
WAS SUPPOSED TO DO, SETTLE DOWN
AND BE A MOTHER.
HER MOTHER TRAVELED WITH HER,
WAS HER BEST FRIEND.
HER MOTHER WAS ALWAYS BESIDE
HER.
ALWAYS SUPPORTING HER DAUGHTER.
SHE GOT A LOT OF STRENGTH FROM
HER MOTHER.
MOTHER AND DAUGHTER WERE OUT
THERE.
BUT YEAH, THE STORY IS AN
INTERESTING ONE.
SHE DISCOVERED MARIE KNIGHT IN
NEWARK.
SHE WAS A GOSPEL SINGER.
SHE THOUGHT SHE WOULD BE GOOD
WITH ME.
SO SHE ASKED HER THAT DAY, AFTER
THE CONCERT, I WANT YOU TO GO ON
THE ROAD WITH ME.
MARIE SAID YES.
AT THAT POINT ROSETTA HAD HER
OWN BUS SHE USED TO TRAVEL.
IT SAYS SISTER ROSETTA THARPE,
RECORDING ARTIST.
SHE HAD A WHITE DRIVER WHO COULD
PICK UP FOOD FOR THE PEOPLE ON
THE BUS, THAT KIND OF THING WHEN
THEY WERE TRAVELING THROUGH THE
SOUTH.
ROSETTA AND MARIE MADE
EXTRAORDINARY DUO AND THE TWO OF
THOSE WOMEN PERFORMED THROUGHOUT
THE COUNTRY IN THE LATE '40s
AND EARLY '50s.
THERE'S NOT MANY FEMALE DUETS.
THEY WERE AMAZING AND MADE
BEAUTIFUL RECORDS.
MARIE KNIGHT WAS ALIVE WHEN I
WAS WORKING ON THE BOOK.
I WAS ABLE TO TALK TO HER
SEVERAL TIMES.
SHE WENT BACK IN THE RECORDING
STUDIO AND PUT OUT SOME MUSIC.
MARIE KNIGHT HAD A SECOND ACT IN
HER 70s OR 80s.
>> WHEN I SAY GROUND BREAKING
PERSONA AND PERSONALITY, SHE
LIVED THAT ONE EXAMPLE OF THAT
WAS THE NEIGHBORHOOD IN WHICH
SHE MOVED INTO AND THE HOME THAT
SHE BOUGHT IN RICHMOND, WHICH
WAS AN ALL WHITE SECTION.
>> SHE BOUGHT A HOME.
SHE WAS PROUD OF THAT HOME.
IT WAS THE FIRST HOME SHE LIVED.
I VISITED THE HOME AND IT HAD
CHANGED.
BUT THEY HAD A BIG SHED, ONE OF
THOSE CEDAR SHEDS TO KEEP THEIR
FURS AND BOUNDS AND WIGS AND ALL
THAT STUFF.
VERY APPEALING.
>> SHE WAS A SHOWMAN.
NO, SHE WAS A SHOWWOMAN.
>> THERE IS NO WORD.
IS THERE A WORD FOR SHOWWOMAN?
WE DON'T HAVE A WORD IN ENGLISH
WHO MEAN AS WOMAN WHO WAS
CHARISMATIC ONSTAGE.
SHE EVENTUALLY LOST THAT HOME.
HER NEXT HOME WAS IN
PHILADELPHIA.
THERE IS A PLAQUE IN FRONT OF
HER HOME ON MASTER STREET.
SHE WAS PART OF A FROM THE
GROUND UP, EARLY DEVELOPMENT FOR
MIDDLE CLASS AFRICAN-AMERICANS,
SHE WAS ONE OF THE FIRST
INVESTORS IN THAT NEIGHBORHOOD.
>> AND SO SHE HAD SOME VERY
INTERESTING EXPERIENCES THERE IN
RICHMOND.
ONE OF THEM WAS GOING TO A
DEPARTMENT STORE WHERE SHE WAS
DOING SOME SHOPPING AND GETTING
ACCOSTED.
>> THE STORE WAS PAUL HEIMERS.
IT WAS WHERE SHE GOT HER WEDDING
DRESS.
SHE WAS SHOPPING THERE AND SHE
BOUGHT SOME THINGS IN CASH AND
THEY DIDN'T BELIEVE SHE COULD
POSSIBLY BE LEGITIMATELY BUYING
THAT STUFF.
>> THEY DIDN'T BELIEVE THAT SHE,
A BLACK WOMAN, COULD BUY THAT.
>> SHE WORKED HER WAY OUT OF
THAT ONE.
BUT YEAH, THERE'S A GREAT STORY
ABOUT SHE BOUGHT A WEDDING DRESS
AND SOMEONE TOLD ME THIS STORY
ABOUT REMEMBERING WHEN SHE GOT
MARRIED IN WASHINGTON D.C., THAT
DRESS WAS DRIVEN UP FOR HER.
AND A WHITE WOMAN BUTTONED HER
IN.
OTHER PEOPLE HAD NEVER SEEN THAT
HAPPEN.
IN 1951.
>> TALK ABOUT THAT TERM A
SHOWWOMAN AS OPPOSED TO A
SHOWMAN, PART OF THAT WAS
EXEMPLIFIED BY THIS INCREDIBLE
EVENT IN WASHINGTON D.C. WHERE
SHE PERFORMED AND HAD A WEDDING
AT THE SAME TIME.
>> SHE DID.
>> WE ARE GOING TO COME BACK TO
THAT.
BUT THE IRONY OF HER HAVING
GOTTEN ARRESTED AND THEN SENDING
UP THE SEAMSTRESS, THE WHITE
SEAMSTRESS TO COME UP TO
WASHINGTON D.C. AND DRESS THIS
BLACK WOMAN IN 1951.
>> AND 50 BUTTONS, LITTLE
BUTTONS.
>> AND ALL OF THAT FOR THE
LARGEST WEDDING IN WASHINGTON
D.C.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
SO SHE WAS KIND OF AT A
CROSSROADS IN 1950.
SHE DECIDED, WITH THE HELP OF
PROMOTERS, SHE WAS GOING TO DO A
BIG THING.
THAT MEANT GOING TO FIND A
HUSBAND AND STAGING A WEDDING AT
GRIFFITH STADIUM.
THE NUMBERS ARE 15 OR 20,000
PEOPLE SHOWED UP.
THEY BROUGHT GIFTS, TELEVISIONS,
LYNN ONS, CHINA, THEY PAID
ADMISSION TICKETS TO GET IN TO
SEE HER.
SHE HAD HER BACKING -- AT THAT
POINT SHE HAD AN ALL-FEMALE
GROUP.
SO SHE HAD ALL OF THE MUSICAL
PEOPLE, LUCKY MILANDER WHO
WORKED WITHER IN THE '40s, HE
WAS ONSTAGE CONSTITUTING THE
WEDDING PARTY.
SHE PLAYED THE GUITAR IN HER
WEDDING DRESS FROM CENTER FIELD.
EVEN THE IDEA OF IT'S
TRANSGRESSIVE.
THIS IS WAY BEFORE THE BEATLES
CAME TO SHEA STADIUM, WE THINK
ABOUT STADIUM ROCK.
SHE FILLED A STADIUM IN 1951.
EBONY DID A GIANT, SEVEN OR
EIGHT SPREAD.
DECA RECORDED AND RELEASED IT.
THE WHOLE THING, RELEASED, YOU
HEAR THE PREACHER MARRYING THEM.
IT WAS A WELL KNOWN MINISTER
FROM D.C., A STREET NAMED AFTER
HIM NOW.
HE MARRIED THEM.
IT'S A GREAT D.C. STORY.
>> FOR SURE.
SO THAT WAS 1951.
SO SHE TO SOME EXTENT, FELL ON
HARD TIMES.
>> RIGHT.
>> SHE WENT ABROAD.
FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO ARE
WATCHING, LOOK, I'M GOING TO
ENCOURAGE ALL OF YOU, IF YOU
WANT TO UNDERSTAND THE
ORIGINATION OF R&B, YOU CAN'T DO
IT.
IT COMES THROUGH THIS WOMAN
RIGHT HERE.
IT COMES THROUGH SISTER ROSETTA
THARPE.
WE'LL TALK IN A MOMENT ABOUT
WHAT IS A MODERN DAY IRONY.
I WANT TO ENCOURAGE YOU, ONE,
THIS IS A GREAT BOOK THAT GAYLE
HAS DONE HERE.
IF YOU LOOK AT A COUPLE OF
VIDEOS, YOU SEE THIS ONE VIDEO
OF HER IN ENGLAND.
SHE PULLS UP IN THIS HORSE AND
CARRIAGE, UP TO A TRAIN DEPO.
SHE IS HELPED OFF THE CARRIAGE
AND STRUTS ON TO THE STAGE AND
STRAPS UP AND STARTS SINGING,
THE TRAIN TRACKS ARE RIGHT HERE.
SHE'S JUST OVER THE TRAIN TRACKS
AND THE AUDIENCE IS LINED UP
ACROSS FROM THE TRAIN TRACK.
AND SHE ROCKED ENGLAND.
>> SHE DID.
WHAT'S SIGNIFICANT ABOUT THAT,
THAT FOOTAGE IS FROM THE MID
60s.
SERVICE FILMED FOR BRITISH TV,
THEY MADE THIS DEFUNCT RAILROAD
STATION.
THIS IS A WOMAN WHO HAD FURS IN
HER OWN BUS, SHE GETS OFF THIS
HORSE AND BUGGY AND THEY NOT
LIKE CHICKENS ON THE SET.
IT'S A LITTLE WEIRD.
BUT DOING THIS LIKE SOUTHERN
THING OR RURAL THING BECAUSE
IT'S BLUES.
SHE'S FRAMED THAT WAY.
SHE'S WEARING THIS OF THE
MOMENT, LIKE AMAZING COAT, LIKE
A CAPE AND HIGH HEEL SHOES AND
IT'S RAINING AND SHE TAKES OUT
THIS WHITE GUITAR.
I MEAN, THE THING THAT'S
IMPORTANT ABOUT THAT IS THAT IF
YOU LOOK AT THE KIDS WHO ARE
WATCHING THAT, THEY WERE KIDS.
IT WAS A NEW GENERATION.
THE PEOPLE IN EUROPE AND
ENGLAND, THEY HADN'T HAD A
CHANCE TO SEE ANY OF THE
AFRICAN-AMERICAN MUSICIANS THEY
HAD BEEN LISTENING TO FROM
IMPORTS.
THAT WAS BECAUSE THEY COULDN'T
TRAVEL.
THERE WERE BANS ON TRAVEL TO
ENGLAND AFTER THE WAR.
WHEN SHE CAME THERE IN 1957 WHEN
SHE FIRST PERFORMED IN ENGLAND,
IT WAS A BIG DEAL.
IT WAS A YOUNGER AUDIENCE THAN
SHE WOULD HAVE HAD IN THE U.S.
WHEN KIDS WERE NOT LISTENING TO
GOSPEL.
MOST KIDS WERE LOOKING TO
SOMETHING DIFFERENT, LOOKING TO
MOTOWN.
>> HAVE YOU COME ACROSS WELL
NAMED MUSICIANS WHO HAVE
ACKNOWLEDGED THAT HER PLAY AND
HER STYLE HAD INFLUENCE WITH
THEM?
>> LITTLE RICHARD NOTED HER.
NOT LIKE IT'S IN WRITING, YOU
CAN FIND EVIDENCE FOR IT.
I'M SURE THERE'S OTHER STUFF IN
ORAL HISTORY.
ELVIS PRESLEY TALKED ABOUT HER.
JOHNNY CASH.
WHEN SHE PASSED AWAY, SHE SAID
ROSETTA THARPE WAS HER FAVORITE
SINGER.
A LOT OF THE MEN ASSOCIATED WITH
THE BRITISH INVASION, SHE TOURED
WITH A REALLY YOUNG GINGER BAKER
OF CREAM WHEN SHE WAS IN
ENGLAND.
ALL THAT GENERATION OF
MUSICIANS, ERIC CLAPTON, THEY
KNEW ABOUT HER.
THEY WERE LOOKING AT HER AND
STUDYING HER LIKE THEY WERE
STUDYING ALL THE BLUES MUSICIANS
AND MALE MUSICIANS, TO FIGURE
OUT HOW DO YOU DO THIS.
SHE WAS INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT TO
THE BRITISH INVASION.
HER MUSIC GOT RETRANSLATED FOR
ANOTHER GENERATION.
>> COMING BACK ON THIS SIDE OF
THE OCEAN, SOMEONE WHO HAD SO
MUCH INFLUENCE ON THE BRITISH
PERFORMERS WAS CHUCK BARRY.
YOU SEE THE PERFORMANCES, ONE,
THE WAY SHE'S PICKY AND WHEN SHE
STARTED TO GET DOWN.
I'M TALKING ABOUT STARTING TO
BEND DOWN.
CHUCK BARRY MADE THE DUCK WALK
FAMOUS.
I GOT THAT FROM ROSETTA THARPE
WHO COULDN'T GET ALL THE WAY
DOWN THERE BECAUSE --
>> SHE'S WEARING A LONG GOWN.
>> AND HIGH HEELS.
BUT SHE STARTED.
JUST PHYSICALLY STARTED IN HER
PERFORMANCE TO GET DOWN WHICH
INFLUENCED CHUCK BARRY AND THAT
INFLUENCE HAD SO MUCH TO DO WITH
KEITH RICHARDS.
>> SHE TAKES HER HANDS OFF THE
GUITAR, SHE'S GOING TO GET THAT
NEXT NOTE, EXCITING TO WATCH
THAT.
THAT'S WHERE THAT COMES FROM.
LIKE THAT CARIES MA AS A
PLAYER -- CHARISMA AS A PLAYER.
>> GET AS DEEP INTO IT AS YOU
DID, HOW DO YOU ACCOUNT FOR THE
VACUUM THAT TOOK PLACE, THE VOID
OF WHO SHE WAS AND WHAT SHE
MEANT TO THE INDUSTRY FOR SO
MANY YEARS.
I MEAN, YOUR BOOK AND SOME OTHER
ACKNOWLEDGMENT IS TAKING PLACE.
BUT FOR SO MANY YEARS, YOU
MENTIONED JACKSON.
THAT CERTAINLY HAD IMPACT,
MAHALIA EMERGED AND WENT TO THE
FOREFRONT OF THE CONSCIOUSNESS
IN TERMS OF POPULAR GOSPEL
MUSIC.
THAT'S A FACTOR.
WHAT ELSE ATTRIBUTES TO HER?
>> I THINK IT HAS EVERYTHING TO
DO WITH THE FACT THAT SHE WAS A
BLACK WOMAN.
YOU SEE THE TRANSITION FROM THE
BEGINNING OF THE '60s TO
BEGINNING OF '70s, ROCK 'N
ROLL ATTRACTED YOUNG WHITE
AUDIENCES TO BLACK MUSIC.
>> USED TO BE CALLED RACE MUSIC.
>> IN 1971 WHEN ROSETTA THARPE
WAS STILL ALIVED, A WRITER SAID
SHE LOOKED LIKE A BLACKED UP
ELVIS IN DRAG.
TO SEE THE PROCESS OF HER BEING
POSITIONED AS SUCCESSOR TO ELVIS
PRESSER, NOT INNOVATOR.
>> WE LIVE IN A TIME WHERE RIGHT
NOW CULTURAL APPROPRIATION IS
SOMETHING THAT IS BEING LOOKED
AT AND LOOKED AT AND DEBATING
WITH THE YOUNG MAN FROM HAWAI'I,
I CAN'T THINK OF HIS NAME.
>> BRUNO MARS.
>> CULTURAL APPROPRIATION.
WHAT THE HELL DO YOU CALL
SOMEBODY SAYING THAT SHE'S LIKE
A DRESSED UP ELVIS WHEN IN FACT
SHE CAME LONG BEFORE ELVIS AND
ELVIS WAS IMPERSONATING HER AS
QUITE OPPOSED --
>> AND BIG MAMMA THORNTON.
WHAT HAPPENS IF WE START SEEING
SOME OF THESE WHITE MALE ICONS
TRYING TO CAPTURE THE FLAVOR OF
BLACK WOMEN.
WE THINK OF THAT AS A
CONVERSATION BETWEEN MEN.
AND THESE WHITE MEN THINK ABOUT
BLACK WOMEN'S PERFORMANCE
ONSTAGE.
IT HAD EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THE
FACT SHE COULD BE ERASED.
>> WHAT A COMMENT, THAT SHE
COULD BE ERASED.
>> SHE COULD BE ERASED.
>> YEAH.
IF SHE COULD BE ERASED, WE ARE
BRINGING HER BACK TO LIFE RIGHT
HERE.
TELL US ABOUT THE TRIBUTE.
>> SHE WAS NOMINATED IN 2017 FOR
INDUCTION INTO THE ROCK 'N ROLL
HALL OF FAME FOR 2018.
SHE WAS VOTED IN.
AND SHE WILL BE INDUCTED IN
APRIL.
SHE WILL BE UNDER THE CATEGORY
CALLED EARLY INFLUENCES.
I WEREN'T SHE WEREN'T JUST AN
EARLY INFLUENCE.
>> LET ME TELL YOU SOMETHING, WE
ARE GOING TO THROW DARTS AT THE
HALL OF FAME.
SHOULDN'T BE JUST EARLY
INFLUENCE.
>> IT'S IMPORTANT WHAT CAME
AFTER HER AND THAT SHE'S
IMPORTANT IN AND OF HERSELF.
IT'S IMPORTANT, WE HAVE A
CRITIQUE OF THE ROCK 'N ROLL
HALL OF FAME, SHE WOULD BE HAPPY
TO HAVE THAT HONOR.
WHEN SHE TALKED TO INTERVIEWERS,
ONCE THEY COULD USE THE WORD
ROCK 'N ROLL, SHE SAID IF YOU
WANT TO CALL IT THAT, THAT'S
FINE.
SHE DIDN'T CARE ABOUT THE GENRE
WORD.
THOSE WERE MARKETING CATEGORIES.
SHE GOT PIGEON HOLED IN THE
'50s.
THEY TRIED TO MAKE HER INTO AN
RHYTHM AND BLUES SINGER.
>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.
ROCK 'N ROLL HALL OF FAME, PUT
HER IN.
>> THAT WRAPS US FOR THIS
EVENING.
FOR MORE INFORMATION ON THIS
PROGRAM OR ANY OTHER PROGRAM
PRODUCED BY WHUT GO TO
WHUT.ORG.
