

### The Truth About &

### Mediumship With Mary:

### Repentance & Forgiveness

### By

### Jesus (AJ Miller) &

### Mary Magdalene (Mary Luck)

Published by

Divine Truth, Australia at Smashwords

http://www.divinetruth.com/

Copyright 2014 Divine Truth

Smashwords Edition, License Notes

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### This ebook is a transcript of a seminar delivered on 11th August 2012 in Sao Paulo, Brazil, by Jesus (also known as AJ Miller) as part of the Truth About series. In this talk Jesus focuses on repentance and forgiveness, which are the highest laws in the universe, and are processes we need to engage to grow spiritually. This is followed by some mediumship by Mary Magdalene (also known as Mary Luck), who channels some Brazilian spirits and discusses the topic of forgiveness and repentance on 12th August 2012.

### Reminder From Jesus & Mary

### Jesus and Mary would like to remind you that any document produced by Divine Truth containing any information from Jesus, Mary or any other person includes only a portion of God's Truth that they have personally discovered.

### It does not and cannot contain the entire of God's Truth since God's Truth is infinite and humankind will forever continue to discover more of God's Truth as we progress in receiving more of God's Love.

### Please remember that due to these limitations information contained within this document may need to be revised in the future.

### Many other ebooks have been published by Divine Truth, including ebooks translated into a variety of different languages.

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Table of Contents

### The Truth About - Repentance and Forgiveness: Part 1

1. Introduction

2. Karma and the Law of Compensation

3. God's Laws have a hierarchy

3.1. The Law of Gravity and the Law of Aerodynamics

3.2. Many of God's Laws act upon the soul

3.3. The Law of Repentance and Forgiveness

4. Laws that affect the soul in turn affect the spirit and physical bodies

4.1. God's Laws are constant

4.2. Auras are created by the spirit body

4.3. Vibrational remedies affect the spirit body and physical body, but not the soul

4.4. Healing the soul repairs the physical and spirit bodies

5. Engaging the Law of Compensation vs. the Law of Repentance and Forgiveness

5.1. The Law of Compensation can cause sickness in our bodies

5.2. The Law of Compensation demonstrates our unloving choices to ourselves and others

6. Engaging the Law of Repentance and Forgiveness

6.1. The two stages of repentance

6.2. Repentance needs to be engaged in order to be able to feel God's Forgiveness

6.3. Logic and our emotions need to be engaged to feel the pain we've caused to others

### The Truth About - Repentance and Forgiveness: Part 2

7. Forgiveness is feeling the pain that others have caused us, while repentance is feeling the pain that we have caused others

7.1. Most soul damage is due to the damage we have caused others

7.2. Emotional blockages to repentance and forgiveness

7.3. We are responsible for all of our unloving actions

7.4. Different influences on children create their injuries

7.5. Forgiveness is automatic when we feel the pain of what has been done to us

7.6. The power of forgiveness - an example of violence in the Middle East

8. We need to engage God during repentance to help us undo the damage we have created

8.1. The results of teaching untruths

8.2. If we are acting in love there is less penalty if we teach an untruth

9. The different speeds of engaging the Law of Compensation vs. the Law of Repentance and Forgiveness

10. Coming to terms with the pain that our families have caused us

10.1. Reasons why people blame themselves for what their parents did to them

10.2. Children learn that they are bad from their parents and environment

10.2.1. Our injuries begin as soon as we are conceived

11. Closing Words

### Mediumship with Mary - Repentance and Forgiveness: Part 1

12. Channelling with a Brazilian nun called Florentina

12.1. Forgiveness is an emotional release of all pain that has been caused to us

12.2. We are not responsible for the pain that others have caused us

12.3. We need to feel our pain about how others have harmed us

12.4. AJ reveals his identity

12.5. Jesus did not sacrifice himself for the sake of others

12.6. The nuns travel to the men who have harmed them in the spirit world

12.7. The nuns travel to a brighter place in the spirit world

12.8. Forgiveness in an emotional experience, not an intellectual experience

13. Discussion about the channelling with Florentina

13.1. Self-blame and guilt block the process of forgiveness

13.1.1. An example of giving donations to the poor

### Mediumship with Mary - Repentance and Forgiveness: Part 2

14. Channelling with a group of Brazilian women in a dark location in the spirit world

14.1. Our surroundings in the spirit world and our spirit body reflect our condition of love

14.2. From God's perspective we are all one family of equal brothers and sisters

14.2.1. Love is a gift, and allows people their own desires and passions

14.2.2. God wishes us to discover our passions and desires

14.3. Progressing in love requires us to learn God's definition of love

15. Discussion about the channelling

15.1. False beliefs about the roles of the family in Brazil

15.1.1. An example of caring for mentally disabled children

16. Closing Words

The Truth About - Repentance and Forgiveness: Part 1

1. Introduction

Welcome to our Brazilian people and also to our Swedish people. Today I was thinking of talking to you about something that's very, very important from God's perspective, and that is the principles of repentance and forgiveness. But let's start at the beginning. [00:01:18.29]

2. Karma and the Law of Compensation

All of you would have heard of the term 'karma', which is the pain in your life from the penalties of living out of harmony with love. In traditional spiritual circles karma is said to be related to reincarnation. In other words, when a person has been born again there is a belief that they are paying for the actions in their previous life that were out of harmony with love. So they feel that they have to pay for the actions of the previous life in the next life. But the spirits in the spirit world know that karma is something that happens every single moment. In other words, every single moment we choose to act out of harmony with love there is automatic damage that occurs to our own soul. This damage happens the instant we act out of harmony with love and not at some later time or in our next life. [00:03:12.12]

There is a name given to karma in the spirit world; it is called the Law of Compensation. This law states that whenever we act out of harmony with love there will be automatic damage to our own soul and also damage to the soul of another person who we might have harmed. We carry this injury around until we're prepared to change and correct it. This is what is called the Law of Compensation. So whatever you have been taught about karma is really the Law of Compensation but it is not related to reincarnation. Rather, it is something that happens in your day-to-day life as you live your life. [00:04:57.02]

Karma is not related to reincarnation, but is actually the Law of Compensation

This Law of Compensation is a very restricting law in that compensation is automatically needed for anything that we do out of harmony with love. It's not our definition of love but it is God's definition of love, and quite often what we believe to be loving is nowhere near as loving as what God believes is loving. This law has been made by God to help people come to see when they are been unloving, so that they can take actions to correct their unloving behaviour. [00:06:17.15]

Now in our previous discussions in Belo Horizonte, in "The Truth About - The Human Soul" and "The Truth About - God", we talked about the relationship between God and man and that from God's perspective all development is about love. So when we talk about spiritual development we are not referring to development in metaphysical actions or development in special gifts, but talking primarily about the quality of love. [00:07:06.11]

The purpose of every one of God's Laws is for developing this quality of love. God's entire universe is constructed by laws surrounding love. So when we are involved in what is called karma, or what most of the spirits call the Law of Compensation, these are actions that the universe takes, based on the law, to help us to become more loving. But this is a very slow way of becoming loving and the reason is that every single action has to be measured and then corrected if it's out of harmony with love. This is a very, very slow process. [00:08:17.29]

Most people on Earth have very little idea how unloving they are. They are often taking actions every single day that are unloving and the Law of Compensation or karma is placing the penalty upon the soul for the breaking of the law. But most people are unaware of this and it's only when they pass over into the spirit world and they look at their face in a mirror and they look at their body they see the errors that they have made all of their life. For most people when they pass over, they find it very confronting and very difficult to come face to face with what has happened. Because very little is known about this on Earth, most people on Earth continue to take unloving actions that they believe are loving and it's only when they pass over into the spirit world and they see their dark condition that they realise that something must be wrong. [00:10:06.29]

God is trying to help us become more loving and so God created some laws that help refine us to become more loving. The Law of Compensation is such that whenever we do something out of harmony with love, there is an automatic correction that occurs in our soul that is painful. This pain is telling us that we just took an action out of harmony with love. Most people on Earth are very desensitised to pain and as a result of that they are not sensitive to this painful consequence. So they continue the same action that they took before without listening to the correction that was given. [00:12:28.19]

Now the main point of me travelling the world talking to people is to help them establish a relationship with God, to help them become at-one with God. When we become at-one with God, we can no longer do anything that is unloving and therefore there is automatically no penalty because every action we take is based on love. [00:13:18.03]

3. God's Laws have a hierarchy

Now what I would like to do is illustrate the difference between the Law of Compensation and another law that will help you have a relationship with God; this is called the Law of Repentance and Forgiveness. But before we proceed with that particular law, what we would like to do is explain how laws have a hierarchy.

3.1. The Law of Gravity and the Law of Aerodynamics

For instance, with the physical laws you've heard of the Law of Gravity. The Law of Gravity is about what happens to a person or any mass when there is no firm substance under us; this law determines how fast we will be attracted to the Earth. This Law of Gravity is a very fundamental law. If we did not have gravity, we would fly off the Earth into space at a speed of over sixteen hundred kilometres because that's how fast the Earth is spinning. And anything on the Earth spinning at the same speed that is not connected firmly to the Earth through gravity will automatically fly into space. So we would arrive on the Earth just being born and within a few seconds we would die because there is nothing in between stopping us from flying out into space. [00:15:54.21]

Now there is another law, which supersedes the Law of Gravity and that is the Law of Aerodynamics. The Law of Aerodynamics states that as long as I have a curved wing structure that is propelled fast enough through the air, lift will be created due to the pressure above the wing being lower than the pressure below the wing; this creates the lift. If I have one of these wings then I can overcome gravity. So the Law of Aerodynamics is higher than the Law of Gravity. [00:17:05.05]

The Law of Aerodynamics overcomes the Law of Gravity. Both laws are still in operation at the same time, but the conditions are different in the Law of Aerodynamics and because the conditions are different it acts like the previous law is not there for a moment. For as long as we put into practice the conditions of the Law of Aerodynamics, it looks like the Law of Gravity does not exist. But as soon as the conditions are not met anymore for the Law of Aerodynamics, then gravity instantly comes into action. So if we're flying along in our aeroplane and one of the wings break, now the Law of Gravity comes into effect. Even though we have one wing, there is no balance and now the Law of Gravity will take over and pull us straight to the ground. [00:18:33.02]

3.2. Many of God's Laws act upon the soul

Now this is very much the same with all of God's Laws. All of God's Laws have a hierarchy like this and the highest laws operate upon the soul. The soul is not our spirit body and it is not our physical body; it is our real self and it is the highest of God's creations. [00:19:23.15]

Many of God's Laws affect our soul rather than our spirit body (SB) and physical body (PB)

These two laws, the Law of Aerodynamics and the Law of Gravity, operate upon my physical body but they do not operate upon my soul. They do not operate upon my spirit body either. This is why a person can have an experience of leaving their physical body and experience what many call astral travel and then return to the physical body; because the soul and the spirit body are not forced to stay on the Earth through the Law of Gravity. So our soul and our spirit body can leave our physical body and return to our physical body. In fact each of us does this every night when we go to sleep. [00:20:39.16]

But there are other laws that operate only upon the soul and these laws are the highest possible laws that God has made. Every action of these laws is to do with love. The Law of Compensation is a law that operates upon the soul but it is one of the lowest laws operating upon the soul. So just like the Law of Gravity is a low law operating on the physical body, the Law of Compensation is a low law operating upon the soul. And there are higher laws that can also operate upon the soul that can cause the soul to fly as it were, similar to how wings can cause the physical body to fly. These laws are all called the Laws of Divine Love, and they surround one primary law, and that is the Law of Repentance and Forgiveness. [00:22:26.10]

3.3. The Law of Repentance and Forgiveness

Now almost every spirit knows of the Law of Compensation and so when they speak to the Earth through a medium they speak of this law in operation. But very few spirits know of the Law of Repentance and Forgiveness, and for that reason very few people on Earth ever hear of this law. [00:23:25.16]

And so when many people who pass over from the Earth to the spirit world look at their condition in the mirror and see their dark condition, after a while they realise that their dark condition is because of the lack of love in their soul. And then, because it is not well known about the Law of Repentance and Forgiveness, they realise they have to engage the Law of Compensation in order to remove the result of these unloving actions in their soul. But they don't realise that we could actually remove them using a higher law, and it's this law, the Law of Repentance and Forgiveness that I would like to discuss with you in detail. [00:24:38.12]

Are there any questions about it so far? Does everyone understand the hierarchy of laws? So just like gravity is lower than aerodynamics, so too this Law of Compensation is lower than the Law of Repentance. [00:25:09.24]

4. Laws that affect the soul in turn affect the spirit and physical bodies

Participant: Does the Law of Compensation operate directly on the soul and affect the spiritual body and the physical body at different speeds? [00:25:27.04]

Yes, because the soul is connected to the spirit body. Whatever is happening in the soul will have an effect in the spirit body. So there will be certain effects on the chakras that come from the soul and in fact all of the energy points of your spirit body are dependent upon what's happening in the soul. In addition, the physical body is also influenced only by the soul so these blocked-up feelings and lack of love inside of the soul affect the suffering of the physical body as well. [00:26:27.17]

Lack of love in the soul affects both the spirit body (SB) and the physical body (PB)

Now the older cells in our physical body are around seven years old and every seven years our physical body cells replicate. There are some cells that replicate much faster than this but the seven year period is normal. So if a change happens in the soul where the soul becomes more unloving, then you'll start to see the effect in the physical body seven years later. But you will see the effect in the spirit body much sooner because almost all cells in the spirit body replicate within one month of our time as measured here on Earth. So you'll see the effect much more rapidly in the spirit body when the soul acts out of harmony with love. [00:27:50.08]

Participant: So the soul has a direct effect on the physical body without passing through the spiritual body? [00:28:02.00]

If I can draw the reality a bit differently: if you can imagine that this red is the physical body and this blue is the spirit body, then that's how the two bodies look. And then if you can imagine that this yellow is the soul you can see that the soul envelopes both bodies. [00:29:03.12]

The physical body (red) and spirit body (blue) overlie each other and are enveloped by the soul (yellow)

Now because the soul envelops both bodies anything that happens to the soul automatically affects both bodies. Because the spirit body responds faster, the spirit body's energy systems are the first things to be affected and this is why the chakras instantly change. But the physical body, because of its genetic replication process, takes much longer to be affected and it could take up to seven years for some changes in the soul to be shown in the physical body. The reality is that for most of us, at the time we die is when our body best mirrors our true soul condition. [00:30:18.19]

So for the majority of people when they die of old age, the body looks quite haggard; many times they are overweight in different areas of their body, the face is very lined, they have skin blemishes and these are all a part of their spirit body's energy systems not working properly. That occurs because the soul is already out of harmony with love and it has caused these problems to both bodies. [00:31:21.23]

Mary: Could you say that those effects are the result of a gradual destruction of the bodies?

Yes. This gradual destruction of the spirit body and the physical body result from every time the soul acts out of harmony with love. And observing these bodies are one of the ways we can measure the reflection of how we have been unloving. Of course there are some other ways, but we are often quite self-absorbed and so looking at our body is a good way to measure things. [00:32:20.20]

As we grow in love our bodies have the capacity to grow younger rather than growing older and in fact scientists today do not even understand why the body grows old and dies. But the reason is that the unloving decisions made in the soul cause the spirit body and then the physical body to degrade in its condition. [00:33:09.15]

Now when we pass over into the spirit world we do not have the physical body anymore, but we still have the spirit body and that is still reflecting the soul's condition. It is the soul's condition in love that determines what happens to the spirit body and to the physical body, and it's this Law of Compensation that causes the gradual destruction of both bodies because the soul is choosing to act out of harmony with love. [00:34:02.23]

Participant: If you're stuck in the Law of Compensation you're going to take much longer to undo the lack of love. So if you go beyond the Law of Compensation and you go to the Law of Repentance and Forgiveness you take a leap forward? [00:34:38.23]

Yes, you take a leap and can very rapidly help your soul to become more loving. This is why the Law of Repentance and Forgiveness is very important to understand; unfortunately it is one of the laws on Earth that is very rarely understood. [00:35:10.12]

4.1. God's Laws are constant

Participant: Until two million years ago we were under the old laws. But around two thousand years ago the laws changed; before that the laws that didn't speak about love were stronger. But then the law that related to love started operating. [00:35:55.25]

Let me explain what happened. Two thousand years ago all of God's Laws existed and in fact all of God's Laws still exist now as they did millions of years ago. God's Laws themselves do not change but our discovery of them changes. So two thousand years ago when I first came to Earth, I helped discover these laws regarding Divine Love. The laws existed before then but nobody had discovered them or knew how to use them. Once somebody discovered them and learned how to use them, now that could benefit everybody. [00:37:00.08]

Just like a hundred years ago somebody discovered aerodynamics and now everybody flies; it's very similar with regard to these laws. Before two thousand years ago the Law of Compensation was the only law that was discovered and although the Law of Repentance and Forgiveness was present, nobody knew how to use it. All of the Laws of Divine Love were discovered at that time, but that doesn't mean that there aren't more laws to discover because God has created an infinite system and mankind is always discovering new things about what God has made. [00:38:03.14]

Participant: So it's not an issue of discovering but applying? [00:38:07.10]

Well you need to discover before you can apply. If you don't know what is available you often go along blindly without being aware. So you need to apply it but before you can apply it you need to discover it. [00:38:33.07]

4.2. Auras are created by the spirit body

Participant: So the light or colour you see around people, is that the spiritual body or the soul? [00:38:44.15]

That is from the spirit body. But the spirit body's condition is reflected by the soul and so the soul causes the spirit body's condition. The reality is that when a person is developed in love, most people on Earth cannot see their aura because the colours associated with a highly developed aura cannot be seen by the physical body's eyes and cannot be seen by most people's spirit body's eyes either. So for example, a spirit who is white can appear white even if they are in the second dimension, but at the moment there are thirty six levels of dimensions and if white is in the second dimension, then you must wonder what is above. [00:39:58.16]

Many people on Earth see images of spirits, but this does not mean that the spirit is portraying themselves accurately to the person on Earth. Spirits are capable of changing their condition and projecting an image into your mind of a condition that they themselves do not have; they are able to project a facade. And we must be very careful because if we cannot feel the spirit and feel its condition, then we will believe what we see rather than feeling something more deeply. [00:40:59.28]

But you are correct in the sense that the spirit body is the aura that you see and the colours coming out of the spirit body are the emotions that are present in the soul. Sometimes a person who is a very dark soul can have a bright colour coming out of them because in that moment they have an emotion of sincerity or of love and this emotion comes out as a different colour to their dark soul. But the spirit body will accurately reflect through its appearance the true long-term condition of the soul. We are all capable of occasional moments of brilliance, but once we are fully developed in love every moment will be a moment of brilliance. So it's important to remember that the soul envelops both bodies and therefore controls their condition. [00:42:40.19]

4.3. Vibrational remedies affect the spirit body and physical body, but not the soul

Participant: Would you say that core vibrational remedies like homeopathy operate on the spiritual body? [00:42:53.01]

So called vibration remedies, where people are trying to improve their vibrations, can affect both the spirit body and the physical body, but they will not affect the soul. Because the soul does not change and the soul causes all of the problems in both of these bodies, any vibrational change or chakra change will generally have a temporary affect on the spirit body and the physical body. However there is one exception. Sometimes people have spirits attached to their spirit body and these spirits attach in different locations, depending on where there is an emotional injury. If you break that attachment then that part of the body will no longer be severely affected by that spirit and there will be an instant change. But aside from that, the soul is the thing that determines the condition. [00:44:22.24]

Physical ailments can be created by soul injuries or by spirit attachments to the spirit body (SB)

Participant: So when you're changing the soul, is it useful to use a therapy on the physical body to facilitate the change? [00:44:40.13]

The problem with any therapy that affects the physical body or the spirit body is that in a way it makes us believe something has changed when the soul is yet to change. And we can start to begin to think that we have actually changed when the soul is still in the same damaged state. [00:45:13.15]

The way I see my physical body and the specific injuries that it has and the pains that it experiences is that it is a perfect measuring stick to tell me what's wrong with my soul and so if I spend my money or time trying to fix my physical body ailments without doing any work on my soul, then I am wasting both time and money, and I'm also fooling myself in the process. It would be far more effective if I focussed on my soul and allowed the physical and spirit bodies to reflect my condition because that'll tell me everything. [00:46:13.15]

I understand though that most people feel a bit resistive to that. Most people want the pain of their physical body to reduce without having to do anything else and so they might take a pill. For example I have a headache so I take a headache tablet instead of seeing that my headache was created by my soul suppressing its desire to cry. So instead of seeing the true cause of my headache, I take a headache tablet, the headache disappears and now my desire to cry has also disappeared because it's been suppressed. I had a chance to release something from my soul and I chose to try to fix my physical body instead but the problem still exists in my soul. [00:47:31.24]

4.4. Healing the soul repairs the physical and spirit bodies

Participant: When you change the soul is the change in the physical body instantaneous or does it take a period of time? [00:47:42.18]

In almost all cases the result is instantaneous because the soul is no longer imposing a corrupted energy system upon the spirit body and so therefore the energy system no longer affects the physical body and no longer causes damage to the physical body. However there are some issues that our physical body faces that have a seven year cycle and so it may take some time before the effects show in the physical body. [00:48:33.17]

Any time we engage the Law of Compensation any change that is made at the soul will have a gradual effect upon the bodies in a positive direction and any unloving behaviours that we engage with our soul will have a gradual effect on our bodies in a painful negative direction. In a minute, when we talk about the Law of Repentance and Forgiveness, you will find that it engages much faster processes where things can happen to the physical body and the spirit body instantly based upon what occurs in the soul. [00:49:50.29]

5. Engaging the Law of Compensation vs. the Law of Repentance and Forgiveness

Participant: So say you're stuck in the lower law, in a spiral going back and forth, rotating in the same dimension under the Law of Compensation, and if you then shift to the higher law you move to an upper vibration, where you're in another space? [00:50:39.29]

No, remember I said earlier that all of the laws are operational on everyone and it's just that not many of us are aware of it? The Law of Compensation operates upon every soul who has not engaged the Law of Repentance and Forgiveness. Sometimes within the one person there are some things that they are repentant for and at the same time there are other things they are not repentant for. So, with the things that they are repentant for, the Law of Repentance and Forgiveness is in operation. But with the things they are not repentant for the Law of Compensation is in operation. So it's not that the person has embraced the Law of Repentance and Forgiveness all the time. [00:51:49.27]

It's very important to understand that, because many times we think we're engaged in the Law of Repentance and Forgiveness when we are not, we're actually engaging the Law of Compensation. But understand that the Law of Compensation does help us progress; it's not a law that creates stagnation. In fact none of God's Laws create stagnation. All of God's Laws are about making us progress but this progression is much slower because we are resistive to change. [00:53:02.01]

You see, when we are resistive to change we are not repentant and now the Law of Compensation grinds away at us, trying to get us to change and we are often at the same time trying to stop change. And the reason why the Law of Compensation operates upon most people most of the time is that most people are resistant to embracing more truth about love. And we have excuses, we have justifications, we minimise, we shift the blame onto other people; these are all the things we do that are out of harmony with love and while we're doing that the Law of Compensation is grinding away trying to get us to realise that something is wrong. [00:54:14.28]

So the Law of Compensation is a very important law for people who do not want to change. But for people who want to change, the Law of Repentance and Forgiveness is a much more important law because this is a way you can embrace change very rapidly. However both laws are essential in God's universe to cause a correction of people and to bring the entire universe into more love. They're both very important. The Law of Compensation acts because we are resistive and the Law of Repentance and Forgiveness acts because we are willing, and when you are willing you can do things much faster than if you are resistive. [00:55:13.25]

So perhaps now we need to discuss the Law of Repentance and Forgiveness in a lot more detail and then we'll understand what's involved. [00:55:38.10]

5.1. The Law of Compensation can cause sickness in our bodies

Participant: When we use the Law of Compensation is that where we need to get sick to learn? [00:55:45.28]

A very good question! The reality is that most of us get sick because we are already rejecting truth and in fact all sickness is the result of the rejection of truth, or if you could say it more specifically, the result of acting in an unloving way without noticing it. For many years we have engaged in the unloving behaviour and the physical body sickness is showing us that something is wrong; the Law of Compensation is causing our physical body to be sick. But when you think about it, it's not really the law that causes it; it's our unwillingness to see what's in the soul that causes it. But all physical sickness that we ever experience and all accidents that we have are a result of something that's going on in the soul, something that we need to correct. And the Law of Compensation is showing us. [00:57:28.16]

Now the Law of Compensation is rapid in its action and in some cases can cause very rapid effects such as an accident. Other times we are suppressing over a long period of time and we're slowly becoming more resistive and this is usually the cause of our physical sicknesses and diseases. [00:58:03.23]

5.2. The Law of Compensation demonstrates our unloving choices to ourselves and others

Mary: Can it be that we're unloving to others or to ourselves?

Yes, remember that love is not just about loving others but it's also about loving yourself. You cannot sacrifice the love of others for yourself and you cannot sacrifice the love of yourself for others. There needs to be a perfect balance in the soul of love of others and self. And in fact true love of yourself and true love of others will never cause a compromise between those two positions. But many of us have been taught to not love ourselves or we have been taught to be selfish where we do not love others, and the Law of Compensation will show us in both cases how there is a problem in our soul. [00:59:25.08]

And the Law of Compensation is the effect of the soul's unloving choices. The soul itself will attract, through the Law of Attraction, new events that will cause the soul to be triggered emotionally. But these new events, if we act unlovingly with them, will cause a further degradation of our soul. [01:00:05.05]

So, for example, let's say that I'm a woman and I feel unloved by men. I will then attract a man who is unloving towards me and this is because my soul doesn't have a good opinion of itself and so it will automatically attract a man who reflects that opinion. Now in that interaction I have a choice. I can choose to ask the man to leave and thereby grow in my condition of love towards myself or I can choose to embrace the unloving actions of the man and, because of my fear or other emotion, do whatever he wants. And this will reduce my condition because I am being unloving to myself. [01:01:24.19]

And so in this regard we see how love of self is just as important to God as love of others. In fact to God it is of equal importance that you love yourself as well as love others. And true love of self does not sacrifice for others and true love of others does not sacrifice yourself. This is something that the whole world needs to learn about love. [01:02:07.17]

So everything is about what's happening with love in the soul. The Law of Compensation is a loving law attempting to correct the unwilling soul, whereas the Law of Repentance and Forgiveness is a law that involves the willing soul. It's a way for the willing soul to be corrected and become more in harmony with love. So let's explain the law in more detail shall we? [01:03:15.00]

Participant: Could we just get a bigger picture of it in a way to use the Law of Repentance and Forgiveness? [01:03:39.00]

Yes. The reason why I use the analogy of the Law of Gravity and the Law of Aerodynamics is that it illustrates the higher law superseding a lower law. And the beauty of the Law of Aerodynamics is that it can create so many things. When we're bound to the Earth and the Law of Gravity is underway, there is a limitation to how fast we can travel, there's a limitation of where we can go. As soon as we engage the Law of Aerodynamics there are now fewer limitations. It's exactly the same with the relationship between the Law of Repentance and Forgiveness and the Law of Compensation. However I wouldn't say that we build the aeroplane - God's already built it; it's just us finding it. [01:04:46.11]

Actually, from a physical perspective, above the Law of Aerodynamics there are higher laws of movement and one is, for example, the Law of Teleportation, which man has not yet discovered. The Law of Repentance and Forgiveness is one of the highest laws that affect the soul and one of the reasons is that it engages your desire, and the laws that engage desire are more powerful than the laws that engage resistance. [01:05:40.25]

So the Law of Compensation engages resistance and this is the law that most people on the planet are automatically engaging without knowing. But the Law of Repentance and Forgiveness cannot be engaged mistakenly. [01:06:18.25]

Participant: So you only engage it when you know it?

Not only that, it can only be engaged through desire and that's why it's a more powerful law. [01:06:40.02]

We are all engaging the Law of Compensation by accident but we have to engage the Law of Repentance and Forgiveness with a definite affirmative action. However we're often very resistant to engaging the Law of Repentance and Forgiveness because it requires a deep state of humility and so we get forced into engaging the Law of Compensation, because engaging this law requires very little or no humility. [01:07:23.04]

6. Engaging the Law of Repentance and Forgiveness

So let's discuss the Law of Repentance and Forgiveness, and then we'll compare it a bit more to the Law of Compensation. Now the Law of Repentance and Forgiveness, as the name suggests, has two sides. There is the side that's engaged by God and then there's the side that's engaged by our soul. Or, to make it more personal, it would be better to say my soul. [01:08:57.27]

The Law of Repentance and Forgiveness engages my soul and God

Now it's very important for me to understand that there are two sides to this law. One side is really easy because it involves God and God's emotions, which are always loving and perfect. The other side is very hard because it engages our soul and we are very imperfect and often becoming more imperfect by the minute and as a result the part that we need to play is the most difficult to make happen. [01:09:49.09]

If you think about it, just imagine for a moment there's another person here, another person's soul. If we wished to be sorry for our actions, then we would want to feel about things that we've done to others and what would you do if you were truly sorry?

Repentance involves feeling sorry towards to another person

6.1. The two stages of repentance

Let's say you had a best friend that you had hurt deeply through one of your actions, what would you do and feel? Well initially you may feel guilt, that's telling you you've done something wrong, but is guilt an emotion that causes you to fix the relationship? In a lot of ways guilt is a selfish emotion because it doesn't cause you to act and it makes you believe that you feel worse than the person you hurt. [01:11:39.15]

Participant: Acknowledge?

So initially we would want to acknowledge that we'd done something. But would acknowledge cure the problem? The person still feels hurt and we might say to them, "I know that I've hurt you," and they would probably say in return, "So what are you going to do about it?" (Laughter) So while acknowledgement is important, there must be a lot more depth to our acknowledgement before the other person will feel that we're sorry. So what does it really mean to be sorry? [01:13:03.12]

Mary: When we want to feel what it feels like for the other person. [01:13:12.16]

Yes. So you would want to know the feeling of how they feel. You would want to know and be able to feel how the other person feels. How can you know how hurt this person is if you can't feel how they would feel? So you need to be able to feel how they feel to truly acknowledge what you've done. [01:14:08.21]

Participant: I think I would like to repair and undo what I have done. [01:14:18.05]

Yes, this is very important. There are two actions in repentance. The first part is the deep grieving, the intense emotional experience of sadness. It is the experience of an overwhelming emotion that is larger than what you believe you can handle. That's one part of repentance. [01:16:01.02]

The second part of repentance is a desire to repair the wrong; to fix it. Now to fix it, can you see that you'd have to find out why you broke it? In other words you would have to find out why your soul took the action to cause this hurt. [01:16:40.19]

So if you only had this deep grief but you had no desire to repair the reason why you caused the sorrow, then you are not yet repentant, you are not yet truly sorry. Let's say I cut up the other person's dress (laughter) in my anger and rage and then I felt this terrible feeling of true deep sorrow. If I was really sorry what would I do? Wouldn't I buy her another dress? If I was truly sorry I would. [01:17:51.14]

Now the other person would then feel that I am really sorry and in fact in my relationship with this person it would help them forgive me if they saw that I was that sorry. [01:18:15.11]

Mary: Something I myself find with repentance, or with what I call repentance, is that I want to fix it but I don't want to feel deep grief [01:18:26.27]

Exactly!

Mary: I find that I want to fix it without feeling the deep grief and sorrow, especially sorrow for what the other person must feel. So this is a guilt place for us. [01:19:03.00]

Yes. If we desire only to fix something and we have not gone through the deep sorrow, then how can we know what to fix? Because we are yet to understand the damage we have done. It's only by feeling the deep grief and sorrow that we understand the true extent of the damage and therefore what we can really do to fix it. And remember fixing it is not fixing it for the other person; it's removing from our soul the cause as to why we took the action. [01:20:04.09]

So in the case of me cutting up my friend's dress in a fit of rage, I would need to find out why I was so angry and I would probably find that I'm so angry because I am jealous or I have some other such emotion. If I really want to fix this problem permanently, I would have to remove this jealous emotion from me before I could stop doing this to my friend because while this emotion exists in me, there might be times in the future when I get angry and I decide to cut up another dress (laughter) or do something else that harms her. [01:21:09.20]

When I find the real cause within myself and I release from myself the reason why I have done this thing, there is now no longer any risk of me doing it ever again; the problem will be permanently fixed. When we have a desire to fix it permanently, we do not focus on trying to make the other person feel good again but rather we focus on trying to remove from our own soul the entire reason why we took the action in the first place. Once we do that, this person will feel the change and they will know that the problem has been permanently fixed. And when you think about it that's the only time they can really trust you. [01:22:35.15]

When we remove from our soul the cause as to why we harmed another, we fix the problem permanently

If you do some damage to the other person without going through these two steps, the person will feel that something is not right and while they might forgive you, they may not ever trust you again because the reality is that while the cause remains in your soul, you are untrustworthy and you will probably do the same thing again. [01:23:13.28]

Mary: I feel at times when I try to fix the problem and I even know the cause inside me but I haven't healed it, then I use control to not do a harmful thing. But the Law of Compensation actually acts on the cause doesn't it? [01:23:44.00]Yes.

Mary: So even if I don't take the action again, the cause is still in me, and I'm damaging my own soul. [01:24:02.20]

And you're remaining in the same condition on that particular thing, yes. [01:24:15.12]

So there are two steps that we need to take primarily but they have to be steps that are taken with a pure heart. It's not something that we can manufacture, we can't make out. What we need to do is understand that these two things have to come from our own desire to do them, and the Law of Repentance and Forgiveness is all about your own desire. It's about your own desire to know the damage you've done not only to others, but also to yourself. [01:25:23.01]

6.2. Repentance needs to be engaged in order to be able to feel God's Forgiveness

So repentance can be engaged with God. As far as it depends upon us, repentance comes from us and it is a two-step process involving these two things. When we feel feelings of repentance and in particular we direct them to God, then God responds by helping us feel the feeling, which is a feeling of forgiveness. Now God has already forgiven every one of our actions, but we will not feel that God has forgiven us unless our soul enters a state of repentance. This is a very interesting thing. If I could liken it to other emotions: [01:26:45.11]

I will not feel loved even if somebody else loves me unless I am open to receiving the feeling of love. In the same way, I will not feel forgiven unless my soul is open to the feeling of being forgiven. The action inside of me that causes me to be open to the feeling of forgiveness is repentance. In other words I must become truly repentant before I will feel the emotion of forgiveness from God. And this is a very important thing to understand. You see God has already forgiven.

We need to repent before we can feel God's Forgiveness

God forgives each of us the instant we take unloving actions, but we will not feel the calming effect of forgiveness unless we ourselves see what we have done; until we acknowledge what we have done and we feel a deep grief and overwhelming sorrow because of what we have done, and we have a desire to find the emotion inside of our soul that caused us to do what we have done. Once we do these things, our soul becomes open, and once our soul is open, we will feel the feeling of forgiveness.

6.3. Logic and our emotions need to be engaged to feel the pain we've caused to others

Participant: So repentance is not a rational mental thing? You have to know a lot about yourself to know why you have taken such action. [01:29:43.15]

Exactly; it involves two things. It involves using your logic and it involves using your heart.

Logic alone will not lead you to repentance and if you just follow your heart, there are often injured emotions in your heart and so you would not recognise the unloving emotion. You need a combination of both to understand what you have done. It's no good saying to a person, "That must have hurt you," when you can't feel how it would have hurt them. There has to be a feeling associated with the logic. This is very important to understand about the feeling of repentance. [01:30:53.24]

So we need to engage both our heart and our head. As we do that we will often find the emotion inside of our soul that caused the action and we can use our mind to help our heart feel it. Many of us use our mind to help our heart deny it. In other words we use our mind to shut down our feelings, but it is much better for our soul if we use our mind to open up our feelings. And some of the ways we use our mind to shut down our feelings are that we judge our feelings or we worry in our mind that other people will laugh at us for having those feelings. This is a way that we shut down our feelings. We become more concerned about what everybody else thinks than actually having the feeling and this is not very good for repentance. [01:32:27.23]

So for example if you're a mother and you start to notice the damaging things you've done to your children and you become truly repentant, you'll find many other mothers around you will try to convince you that those things were not damaging and the reason is that they don't want to feel the same feelings. So they'll try to convince you that the thing you've now recognised as truth is not true and they'll try to convince you that there's no need for repentance.

This is how many of us stay out of repentance. We allow other people in our environment to shut down the process of repentance that begins within us because we're worried about what everybody else thinks about it. And sometimes we're also worried about being humiliated or controlled and we're worried that if we are truly expressive of what we've done other people will condemn us in some way and they often do. This is the reason why most people revert back to the Law of Compensation - because they do not want to engage these other emotions and then they become resistive to repentance. So now the Law of Compensation is going to do its work because our soul is unwilling. Remember the Law of Compensation is for the unwilling soul whereas the Law of Repentance and Forgiveness is for the willing soul. [01:34:49.10]

Participant: What if we're not aware of how much suffering we've caused someone else? [01:34:57.23]

If you're not aware of how much suffering you've caused others, then you have not begun repentance because the reality is every person who is repentant is fully aware of everything they have done to others. The beauty of this process of becoming aware is that is makes our soul more sensitive to unloving actions and this is a very powerful thing that can happen to our soul. So if you're in a state where you are unaware, then you are automatically being guided by the Law of Compensation until such time as you have a desire to be aware. As soon as you begin to have a desire, you are now changing over from an unwilling soul to a willing soul and as a result you are now starting to engage the Law of Repentance. [01:36:20.21]

The reality for most of us is that we are unaware of many of the damaging things we have done. But if you long to God to know from God what are the things that you have done, then God will present them to you as fast as you are able to handle. God will help you to become more aware. It is only our resistance that causes us to have a lack of desire and the only reason we resist is generally that we're afraid, and then we don't want to know the truth. [01:37:16.24]

Participant: So desire and humility precede repentance? [01:37:24.04]

Yes, in fact desire precedes most things. You don't even get out of bed in the morning without a desire. You don't eat without a desire and you don't drink without a desire. So desire is a very important emotion that we need to embrace. [01:37:50.09]

Humility is a more difficult emotion to embrace because it requires that we become truly knowledgeable of how we currently are. It requires that we see ourselves accurately, not from our own perspective but from God's and this is very, very difficult. So humility is a very important quality to develop as well, if we're ever going to be repentant. In fact a person who is not humble will never be able to admit they have done something wrong and therefore never be able to engage the Law of Repentance. And so the Law of Compensation will grind away upon their unwilling soul until such a time as they choose to become repentant. [01:39:05.19]

So one of the most powerful things we can do with our life is to desire to know everything that we have done that is out of harmony with love and then the second most powerful thing we can do with our life is to become repentant for everything that we have done out of harmony with love. [01:39:34.23]

The Truth About - Repentance and Forgiveness: Part 2

What we've covered up to this point is that there are basically two laws that affect the recovery of the soul and bring the soul into harmony with love. The first law, the Law of Compensation, is automatically embraced by every person and it always corrects the unwilling soul. The second law, the Law of Repentance and Forgiveness, embraces the willing soul and it is a much more powerful law to help you change and become more loving. [00:01:33.20]

Then we discussed what happens when we do some things that are bad to others and how we need to have a feeling of deep sorrow and regret. This opens us up to wanting to permanently fix the problem with the other person, but to do that we must correct something that was in the soul that caused the unloving action towards the other person. This is a very difficult thing to do, because it involves using our mind and our heart to find the underlying causes of our unloving behaviour. [00:02:44.19]

We can only feel God's forgiveness when we pray to God and repent for the pain we have caused others

Now as soon as we engage desire and we project that desire to God, that is the same as prayer, and we can pray to become open to all of the unloving things that we have ever done. Once we do that our heart opens up and we are able to feel some of the causes of our unloving behaviour. While God always forgives us, we will never be able to feel that forgiveness unless we have gone into a repentant state, because it's the repentance that opens our heart and allows the feeling of forgiveness to enter it. Unless we are repentant, we will never feel the feeling of forgiveness.

Many people want to feel forgiven without being repentant and this is impossible. While we are forgiven, we will not feel the feeling of forgiveness unless our heart is repentant. This is a very beautiful thing that God has done, because it is only the sincere heart that can feel forgiveness and the person who is insincere will never feel the forgiveness that God has for them. [00:05:22.22]

Participant: Can we forgive someone who has harmed us if they are not repentant? [00:05:47.21]

Well just as God has forgiven you even though you are not repentant, so too you can forgive another even if they are not repentant, but this requires releasing from you the emotions that you have towards them that cause you to feel hurt or angry. It's not an exercise of your intellect but rather it's an exercise of releasing the feeling that you have towards the other person that causes you to not like them. [00:06:41.02]

Just as God has forgiven you before you became repentant, once you become at-one with God you will be able to forgive others before they are repentant. So a very important part of the path towards God is to learn how to forgive others without them feeling sorry for what they have done. This is the sign of a very developed individual. Now some people try to intellectually think they've forgiven while the emotion towards the other person is still present in their soul. To truly forgive you must release the emotion that is present in your soul towards the other person that causes you to feel attacking or angry with the other person. [00:08:03.07]

If you practice these two things; repentance towards others and God and forgiveness of others and yourself, then you will make very rapid progress towards love. Of course like anything you need to know what you're forgiving. There is no blanket forgiveness of, "I forgive you all", without knowing the emotion that you have towards all. You must be aware of the emotion and have that emotional release before you truly forgive, just as you must be aware of the things you have done wrong towards another person or towards God. Without being aware you don't know what you need to be repentant for, so you must be aware in your soul of what others have done towards you and what you have done towards others before you can truly repent or forgive. [00:09:39.07]

So again, others can be forgiven by your removing the reason in your soul that causes you to feel bad towards the other. I see many people try to avoid other people and they say they've forgiven them, but a person who has forgiven another does not avoid them. However if the other continues to attack you, a person who has forgiven may withdraw and stay away from the person who is attacking and they may continue doing this until the poor behaviour towards them ceases. So in other words God does not expect you to continue to put up with bad behaviour from others and not remove yourself from the situation. But even if you remove yourself from the situation, it wouldn't be because you don't like the person, it would be because you loved yourself enough to not put up with this behaviour. [00:11:32.14]

7. Forgiveness is feeling the pain that others have caused us, while repentance is feeling the pain that we have caused others

Mary: I feel like I was trained in my family to experience guilt and punish myself and then try to fix it, but that helps me avoid the cause in my soul. I hear what you say, that we must develop the desire to visit the cause inside of us, but how much does this family training impact on why I find it so difficult? [00:12:36.29]

Obviously the family training has a very large effect on what you are capable of doing and it is often these family belief systems that cause us to reject deep grief and sorrow. So the family belief systems have to be confronted as a part of the process. [00:13:13.22]

So if we look at what's going on inside of ourselves, there is our real self that God has created. This self is without any damage. Then there is the injured self which our parents have created and then there is our facade self which we have created. There are two sets of damage to our soul. There's the damage done by the family and the environment and then there is the damage done by our own unloving choices.

So when I was a child, whenever my family or my environment acted unlovingly towards me and they did not give me an opportunity to release the emotion caused by their unloving behaviour, then an injury was created. I could still choose to work my way through this injury, to act in a loving way, though of course that would be harder. [00:15:11.06]

There are two types of damage then that we need to work our way through. The process of working our way through the damage of the injured self that comes from our family environment is a process of forgiveness. The process of working through the facade self, which is my choice to choose unloving behaviour, is repentance.

We need to forgive the damage in our injured self and repent for the damage in our facade self

Forgiveness is needed in my relationship with others and my relationship with myself in order to release childhood damage. Repentance is needed for what I have chosen to do that is unloving towards others. A person who has progressed spiritually, or in other words has progressed in love has learned both how to repent and how to forgive. They need both. [00:17:05.07]

Now if I choose to repent of my own actions but at the same time I am blocked to forgiving others theirs, then I will only progress so far in love and then stop. If I both repent and forgive, where I repent for the unloving behaviour I have taken and the unloving thoughts I have and the unloving words I have spoken, then I will do a great deal of benefit to my own soul and I will help other people who I have harmed. But there is damage within myself that I was not responsible for and that my family and my environment is responsible for from when I was young, and I need to come face to face with that damage and then allow myself to forgive others. Both processes are emotional; they involve your emotions. Experiences must be felt rather than thought about, because it's only the feeling of them that releases them. [00:18:54.14]

Mary: If I'm to find the causes within myself that have caused me to be unloving, I have to visit the injury in myself and experience it and once I experience it, I can forgive. [00:19:34.27]

Yes; the two emotions are very closely entwined and these two feelings of repentance and forgiveness on any single issue will probably be occurring together. You won't be able to separate one from the other because the reason we did things that were unloving is often related to what happened to us when we were a child. As a result of that our need for repentance has come from childhood injuries that we have acted upon unlovingly. [00:20:26.26]

7.1. Most soul damage is due to the damage we have caused others

However, it's important to see that the injuries that we have acted upon have been our choices that are based on unloving behaviour and our choices have a higher degree of responsibility than other people's choices. So the majority of the damage that has been done to our soul is the result of the choices we have made, not the choices that other people have made. As I said earlier it is actually possible to act lovingly even when there are many injuries in the soul and we need to be aware of the fact that the personal choices we make have created the greatest amount of damage to our soul. [00:21:42.11]

Now it is true that these personal choices are related to childhood injuries, but there is one primary thing we've forgotten if we believe that the injured self emotions are more important than the facade self emotions and that is the degree of responsibility. If I have made choices, then I am primarily responsible for those choices. I cannot help the choices of others, but I have direct control over my own personal choices, and for this reason it is my choices that have created the most damage to my soul. If we had only the childhood injuries/emotions but did not decide to make unloving choices as a result of them, we would have far less damage in our soul. [00:22:56.12]

Now the only reason we don't want to go into repentance is that we are unwilling to feel.

When we are unwilling to feel the injury we do things to create choices to prevent us from feeling the injury, and these choices always damage another person. So it is only one problem that we have that causes us to not go into repentance and that is our unwillingness to feel. Really it is an unwillingness to be humble, because humility is the desire to feel everything without blaming any other person. [00:24:09.18]

Because the childhood injuries happen to us and other people did them, we often feel very angry with those people and this causes us then to be unwilling to feel, but it is our unwillingness to feel that causes us to make choices that are unloving to ourselves and that are what causes most of the damage to our soul. [00:24:49.09]

7.2. Emotional blockages to repentance and forgiveness

Mary: I feel like I'm trying to repent and I feel comfortable saying it's my fault... [00:25:02.20]

Well firstly can we translate that?

Mary: It's okay; I can have this discussion another time but...

No, no but you are a bit resistive though. You're already having some resistance to the discussion. [00:25:23.05]

Mary: My feeling is that I'm trying to repent without a willingness to feel what I've done wrong, without feeling what my family has done wrong to me. [00:25:38.04]

No, I can't agree. The reason I cannot agree is that you are trying to blame yourself for things that are not your responsibility, but instead are the responsibility of your family. That is not repentance; that is taking responsibility for something that is not yours. When you are repentant you take responsibility for what you have done, not for what others have done. So this is very different to what you're attempting to do. [00:26:34.22]

Participant: I have the same problem. Why does a person choose to do that? [00:26:40.15]

Because we do not want to feel the pain of what our family has done, or even more important, we are afraid of the family reaction if we feel the pain, because the family will react when they feel blamed. What we do in that state is we place the responsibility for the injury on our family and this is a very appropriate thing to do because that is where it belongs. But in that moment the family will feel unfairly treated and often the family and environment react angrily. And your fear of that causes you to accept responsibility for things that you are not responsible for. [00:28:00.07]

Mary: I want to take responsibility for more than just my choices and that means I can't repent or forgive and I get stuck. [00:28:15.08]

Yes. You are not responsible for the unloving choices of others; you are only responsible for your own unloving choices. When you try to take responsibility for the unloving choices of others and then try to be repentant, it is impossible because you're trying to be repentant for something somebody else did. That is a physical impossibility and under those circumstances the emotions will not flow. [00:29:16.29]

7.3. We are responsible for all of our unloving actions

Participant: How do we know when our unloving acts or actions are our responsibility, or a consequence of what happened when we were children? [00:29:47.10]

Our unloving actions are always our personal responsibility. There are many people who have been harmed terribly when they were little who are still able to act lovingly. There are also many people who have never been treated badly when they were little who have decided to act unlovingly and this is an indication of how the will is used. [00:30:25.24]

So the key thing to remember is that we are responsible for all of our own choices. However, God attributes different responsibility to every act we take because God can trace back to every single cause in the soul of those individuals who are affected because they have caused our own unloving belief systems. So there is a deep responsibility in a person who teaches you, whether that person is a mother or father or parent or teacher, because they could teach you to do things that are out of harmony with love and therefore they bear partial responsibility for some of your unloving actions. So we are always fully responsible for our own choices, but there are other people in our life who also bear some responsibility for those choices and God's Laws automatically apportion the responsibility. [00:32:13.02]

So all we need to worry about is our own unloving choices. We don't need to worry about who God has attributed some of the other choices to, because they need to worry about that. So, any person who taught you something that was out of harmony with love will bear the responsibility for their particular actions. However, there is also the personal responsibility we have for our own unloving actions. It is a very fair system. [00:33:02.13]

7.4. Different influences on children create their injuries

Participant: So the original injury to the true self happened at the time of my conception. The responsibility for this is in my parents. [00:33:23.23]

And the environment.

Participant: Now between forgiveness and repentance, is there an age for the beginning of that responsibility? [00:33:42.01]

There is no pre-set age. Each child exercises it differently. Some children decide at a very young age to start to do things with their own will. But as a generalisation by the time a child is seven years of age they have a relatively well developed intellect. As they then grow from seven years of age, if they are allowed, they exercise their will to a greater degree. Up until that time they are often just reflecting the unhealed emotions within their environment, but after that time they gradually become more self aware and as a result of becoming more self aware they also bear more responsibility for their own unloving actions. [00:35:04.12]

So it is a gradual process, not a process that happens at a certain point in time. In addition unfortunately the situation is more complex, because if we examine the things that control the child there is often a very large system around them. So around the child there are often parents, grandparents from both the mother and father's side and there are often spirits who also have an impact upon the child through these systems, and so the poor child is being influenced by very many people as it is growing. [00:36:26.21]

Children have many different influences when they are growing up, including from family members and from spirits

Now that being the case, each of these people who are influencing the child bears a responsibility for the child's injuries and therefore bears a subsequent responsibility for the child's choice to be unloving. But all of God's Laws act perfectly and the behaviour is apportioned to the individual as the law demands. The complexity arises when it's not just the people in the physical, but it's also spirits in the spirit world who are affecting the entire system that influences the child. [00:37:29.00]

7.5. Forgiveness is automatic when we feel the pain of what has been done to us

Participant: So I need to forgive those other influences?

Yes.

Participant: It's not God forgiving them, it's me forgiving them?

It is you forgiving them. The things that you are asking God to forgive are the things that you have done to the environment and the other people. That damage is very, very difficult for you to personally repair because once the damage is done it's very, very hard to undo. Once you scream at somebody, once you yell at somebody, once you smack somebody, once you hurt somebody, once you make somebody have addictions with you, once you have released the causes from inside of yourself they may still have the injury that you caused and this is where you need God's forgiveness. [00:39:15.14]

So this is really a three-pronged issue for us. We need to learn to forgive others, we need to learn to forgive ourselves and we need to learn to repent for our own unloving behaviour. Once we engage these three particular things we are capable of having a very close relationship with God. [00:39:50.29]

Participant: So I need to feel all of my causal feelings, know where they came from and forgive my parents? [00:40:11.13]

It's not that complicated. All you need to do with your causal emotions is to feel them and when you feel them you will automatically forgive. It's the process of feeling them that is actually the forgiveness. [00:40:45.03]

Participant: So when you stop avoiding feeling your emotions and you feel them does forgiveness happen automatically? [00:40:56.29]

Yes, this is correct. It is important to understand that forgiveness is not an intellectual activity but rather a process of feeling the emotional feelings of damage that other people did to you. This is what it means to forgive. So rather than taking out those feelings on other people, rather than trying to punish other people for what they have done, it is taking the second option to feel the damage without harming another. [00:41:44.22]

7.6. The power of forgiveness - an example of violence in the Middle East

If I can give a good illustration! In the Middle East at the moment we have the Israelis and the Arabs. Now the Israelis feel that the Arabs want to destroy them and so they destroy the Arab first. And the Arabs feel the same feeling, they feel that the Israelis want to destroy them and so they feel they are just reacting to the Israeli's feelings. This is what happens when we take an eye for an eye. Gandhi said it makes both of us blind. [00:42:39.15]

So if I decide to harm Adriana and if she decides to not feel her feelings of hurt about that, then she will try to harm me. And then we have one harming the other, harming the other, harming the other. This is the main cause of all of our problems on Earth. We do this in the family, we do it with our friends and we do it between nations. [00:43:23.03]

If instead of doing this, if the Israeli who felt attacked by the Arab just decided to cry about the attack without getting a gun and attacking back, then he would release the emotion in him that causes the desire to attack. Now if he did this, it would have a powerful effect on the Arab who is attacking. And the same applies in the reverse. If, instead of attacking the Israeli in return for the Israeli's attack on him, the Arab decided to feel his grief and emotions about being attacked and even his grief and emotions about his child dying from an attack rather than wanting to attack back, then the whole reason inside of the soul would be released. [00:44:44.29]

But this requires very brave people because it requires that you trust God's Laws and that you learn to forgive even when other people may potentially attack you and most of us do not want to do that. Most of us would like to attack a person who attacks us rather than to forgive. It requires a person very developed in love to forgive somebody who is purposefully attacking them, but if we can do that we can change the world. [00:45:39.22]

You see the thing we need to bear in mind is that the injured self was created by others and others bear the responsibility for its creation, but the facade self and what we've chosen to do after that, that is our own responsibility and we need to take responsibility for that. We don't need to take responsibility for the injured self except in one way; that now the feelings are inside of us only we ourselves can release them. No one else can release your feelings; even the person who created your feelings cannot release your feelings. [00:46:51.13]

8. We need to engage God during repentance to help us undo the damage we have created

So we need to say to ourselves. "Even though somebody else created these feelings, I need to feel them and once I feel them I have automatically forgiven them, but for all the things I have done to harm others I need to choose to repent. Some of this repentance needs to be aimed towards the person, but some of it also needs to go towards God because it is only God who has the power to help me go through the process of releasing it all. Even if I repent for what I have done to harm a person the damage may still remain in them for many years", and this is where our prayer to God is so important, because it's only God who can help rub out all of the damage we have done. [00:48:16.08]

For example, if you look at what many religions have taught on the planet! Many of these religions have taught people that it is right to go and fight for the religion. Now the ministers and priests who taught this bear a large responsibility for a person going to war. So the minister who then goes through repentance for telling this group of people to go to war cannot change the results of what these people are going through once they went to war. He doesn't have the power to do so, he can't get inside of their hearts and take away their pain, it's only God who can do that. It's only God's Love that has that effect. [00:49:27.17]

So the minister who is repentant would realise that there are many things that he cannot correct because he taught the wrong thing. He can only pray to God that God help him to correct it and God, through Her Love, has the ability to help every person who has been harmed by that minister. This is why much of our repentance must be directed towards God, because it is also a prayer to God that God help us repair the damage we have done; we are not powerful enough to repair it all ourselves. [00:50:30.24]

8.1. The results of teaching untruths

Participant: I have been teaching wrong things and I pray to God to forgive me for breaking Her Laws. Can God take away the damage from those people feeling the feelings of the injury I have caused in them? [00:51:08.12]

Well firstly if you were truly repentant you would know every teaching that is wrong and therefore you would understand the effects of every teaching that is wrong. In addition you would also be attempting to help those people who you taught to understand the new understanding you have of truth. However even though you are doing that, many of these people may have already acted on your previous advice and this is where God can help, because when you direct your feelings of repentance to God you would also be praying to God to help these particular people to make the changes necessary that you have had to make.

God can help these people in every case accept for one. They have to exercise their will where they want help.

God cannot force their will because God gave them the gift of free will in the first place. It's once we realise this that we feel the full effect of repentance because we see the influence we have had on others that has caused them to harden their will, which then also caused them to harden against God and to be unable to receive help. Once we realise this in our own soul we will have deep feelings of sorrow because we have no way to correct it. This is true repentance. [00:53:43.13]

We're doing everything we can to fix it but unfortunately we can't fix everything because the will of the other person must be engaged. Once we realise this fully, we feel deep feelings of remorse because we see the effects of our own unloving behaviour on people's lives for a long, long time. This is a very sobering feeling and causes us to be very humble in the future. It also causes us to be very careful about what we teach, whether it's to our children or to others. [00:55:02.28]

This repentance feeling is very, very powerful for the soul because you realise the soul's limitations.

The limits of your soul are that you have changed other people's will through your teachings and now find it very difficult to undo, because they may not be open to you undoing it. This is something that every person who teaches comes to understand at some point. Remember that every parent is a teacher and the persons they teach are their children. So you may realise that you have had a lasting effect on your child, but even if you are sorry for your unloving behaviour, your child may go on for many years acting on what they have been taught. [00:56:40.27]

Participant: So everything we teach that does not engage God and the soul causes damage? [00:56:53.19]

No I can't agree with that. There are many things that you can teach which are true but that may not engage the soul or God, and there are no penalties for these teachings as long as they are true. So in other words you may teach a scientific fact, it may not be all of the truth but it is the truth that we know at the moment and as long as that is in line with the rest of God's universal truth, there is no penalty upon the soul. [00:57:43.04]

Participant: If we teach something to heal the body or spiritual body without engaging the soul then it's not true?

I agree. This is where it's very important for us if we are truly going to teach that we understand what we are teaching. Last week in Belo Horizonte we talked to Chico Xavier and he mentioned that he taught many things on Earth that he does not agree with now. This is a problem - many times people on Earth believe they know but do not actually know. We are best to teach only the things we actually know and other than that admit that we are students. [00:59:00.23]

Any teacher bears a great responsibility, and remember that any one of us who have had children have automatically become a teacher, so we all bear a great responsibility for what we have taught. So if there is something that you do not know for certain, it is far better to present it as something you don't know for certain and then there is no responsibility. When you teach something that you feel you know for certain and you teach this certainty to others - if it happens to be wrong or incorrect then it bears a great responsibility. [01:00:04.29]

8.2. If we are acting in love there is less penalty if we teach an untruth

Participant: What is the responsibility of a physician who does not believe in any of this when he or she is treating the patient? [01:00:23.07]

One basic truth we must bear in mind with responsibility - if my action is in harmony with love, there is always a more positive effect than any other emotion. So if I have become a physician only to earn money and not because I love, then anything I do with the patient is already out of harmony with love. It's very important for us all to choose occupations that are in harmony with our desires to love. [01:01:20.29]

Now even if we teach an untruth there is less responsibility if we loved while we did it than if we did not love while we did it. Even if we do love and we finish up teaching an untruth there will of course be some penalty, because the untruth has an effect on other people's lives. But one thing that makes us much safer from our soul's perspective is to love everything we do. The key thing for us to bear in mind though, even if we do make a mistake and teach an untruth, the fact that we did it out of love will mean that our conscience will not bother us as much as if we had done it for another motive. [01:02:43.22]

So any person of any occupation can first choose to love even when they don't know the truth and God always rewards love. The intention to love has a very powerful healing effect on others and while untruth does affect others, if we had a feeling of love rather than a feeling of attacking them, or punishing them or harming them or for some selfish reasons such as earning money, if we had the intention to love, it can overcome a great deal of harm that is done to others. [01:03:49.21]

Of course at some point in the future we will have to feel about the untruth. So in the question that you asked about a doctor who did not believe the truth, if his action is in harmony with love towards people and not because he desires prominence, or desires wealth, then the damage he does to others is far less than if he engaged the untruth with all of those other unloving emotions. God measures everything by love first and then by truth next. It's beautiful what God does. [01:04:53.22]

9. The different speeds of engaging the Law of Compensation vs. the Law of Repentance and Forgiveness

So I think we have given you a basic understanding of the two different laws. The Law of Compensation acts upon the unwilling soul and tries to push the soul into a place of realising its unloving behaviour, and the Law of Repentance and Forgiveness acts upon the willing soul and causes them to remove from themselves very rapidly the cause of their own unloving behaviour. [01:05:49.25]

To give you some concept of the difference in speed of these laws, I would like to compare the two types of laws in their effect. I know many spirits in the spirit world who have been engaged in the Law of Compensation for two thousand years or more, paying for their lives' unloving behaviour while they were on Earth. They are now in the spirit world still engaged in this law because they are unwilling to see the damage they have done. [01:06:44.13]

I have seen other spirits who had just as much damage as the first group of spirits and who had harmed many, many millions of people while on Earth but they have engaged the Law of Repentance and Forgiveness and within twenty years they have completely removed all of the unloving behaviour. I have seen some of these spirits go from the hells of the first dimension to the condition of at-onement with God, which is in the eighth dimension, in the space of only twenty or thirty years. Other spirits who have been involved in the Law of Compensation are in the hells of the spirit world in the first sphere and they've remained there for two or three thousand years, or longer. That's the difference between engaging your desire to be sorry for the things that you have done in comparison to resisting being sorry for anything you have done. [01:08:20.05]

When we came here to Brazil we felt many spirits around us who are still Earth bound, or in the hells of the spirit world, and these spirits are having an effect on many Brazilians' day-to-day life. What we would like to do tomorrow in a mediumship session with Mary is help these spirits to understand the Law of Repentance and Forgiveness, because we feel that if we can help them understand this law they can progress much more rapidly in the spirit world and then have less effect over the Earth. It will also give you an opportunity to see what it feels like in the spirit world going through the Law of Compensation because that's the law that many of these spirits are already under. [01:09:46.14]

10. Coming to terms with the pain that our families have caused us

So how do you feel about this discussion? You can speak honestly; you don't have to worry about injuring my sensibilities! (Laughs) What are you feeling? [01:10:48.21]

Mary: I'm feeling very emotional about my resistance to acknowledging the hurt that's been done to me in my life, because I've been trying to engage repentance and can't do it unless I feel what's been done to me. [01:11:15.14]

And it's very important to see that. For most of us when it comes to dealing with our injured selves we tend to follow our family line and say, "We didn't do anything that harmed you." The family finds it very difficult to accept that they did something that harmed us and we are often so afraid of them that we're willing to blame ourself rather than place the blame where it lies. For many women this is a major cause of their depression and this is a big cause of why we have so much anti-depressant medication. We suppress the damage that is being done and then we have to take pills to make ourselves feel better about doing that. [01:12:40.27]

Participant: I have the same problem as Mary but I don't have any family around me and I still do that. I have something inside of me where I want to believe they're better even though they're not around. [01:13:12.29]

We have a big personal investment in believing our family to be good and the big personal investment is this: while I can believe them to be good, I don't have to feel the pain they've created. So I am emotionally invested in not seeing the pain they created. So I tell myself everything was fine or I tell myself I cannot go there, and these are both harmful things to do to our own soul. We must understand that we have emotional investments in not feeling these feelings and if we don't deal with those emotional investments, then we will not feel those feelings; we will justify to ourselves staying away from them. [01:14:29.18]

In addition we carry around the belief systems of our family inside our soul. It's like a weight or a burden that we carry around in our life and we feel we must live by them even if our family are no longer on Earth. And so in this way we continue to harm ourselves in the same way that our family harmed us. [01:15:08.12]

10.1. Reasons why people blame themselves for what their parents did to them

Mary: It's especially big around issues of sexual damage and sexual harm. There's so much about blaming yourself in that and it's kind of very difficult to connect to, "It wasn't my fault." The feeling of the shame entering me is, "It is my fault that I am bad." [01:16:06.09]

The problem that we have in most families is that the parents do believe that the child is to blame for the treatment from the parent and so the child grows up to believe that it needs to accept the blame. This is a very difficult emotion to erase, because we continue to accept blame for things that are not our fault. [01:16:48.11]

Many parents believe children are to blame for their treatment by the parent, causing those children to accept the blame

We also have an emotional investment in accepting the blame. If this is a pain scale, the higher the personal pain the more of a tendency we will have to not acknowledge the source of the pain.

The greater the pain caused by our parents, the more we want to blame ourselves

If the source of the pain is the parent and we have very high levels of pain about that parent, if we are unwilling to feel our own emotions, we will attempt to suppress the pain caused by that parent, by accepting the blame ourselves. We tell ourselves that we are to blame for how they treated us. [01:17:55.11]

We do this because the parent believes the same thing. In addition if we do not accept the blame, then our parent will probably have huge amounts of rage towards us and what we want is love from the parent. We don't want rage. So we accept their definition of reality rather than accepting the truth.

If children don't accept the blame the parents will often project rage at them

But this is not repentance and this is not forgiveness. A person who repents can see the pain that their parent has created and can see the damage they themselves have done. They do not accept the pain of the parent as if it's their own creation. This is very important to understand. [01:19:17.12]

Participant: And you said the way is to feel the feeling? [01:19:23.21]

Yes. You see once this child is an adult it accepts the blame the parent has projected at it for two primary reasons. The first reason is so that it doesn't feel the pain about that parent and the second reason is to avoid the parent's potential rage. So the grown up child has a huge emotional investment in not facing the truth. [01:20:04.18]

And this is the difficulty that many people face and this is also why many psychoanalysts and psychologists have difficulties in helping the child who is now an adult firstly see the truth about what the parent has done and secondly feel the pain about what they've done. Instead this child often wants another alternative. This grown child doesn't want to feel the pain. They want the parent to love them and want the parent to never be in a rage with them and so this grown child has an emotional investment to not forgive and to not feel the pain. [01:21:13.23]

10.2. Children learn that they are bad from their parents and environment

Participant: I think even if I could really see and feel their guilt, and that it was their responsibility, I accepted the blame anyway because I feel I'm not a good person. [01:21:50.27]

So you're almost telling yourself they did it because you're a bad person.

Participant: No I think I could feel that they were the one who did it to me, but I have made what they did to me...

As your fault?

Participant: No it was not my fault but I'm a bad person, yeah?

Yes, let's talk about this 'bad person' thing for a bit. A child does not automatically believe itself to be a bad person, so if a child is taking on a belief that it is a bad person, it has to have come from somebody else in the environment. A child has no opinion of itself when it is first conceived, good or bad. It only takes on the opinions of others around it generally. And so if by the time you've become an adult you believe that you are intrinsically bad and this is the reason why bad things were done to you, then this underlying belief had to have come from somewhere. [01:23:44.28]

Now this is a belief that the majority of the world has and in fact religions tell us this over and over again. They tell us that our heart is bad from the moment we are born. So many societies have grown up with this belief and that therefore causes us to accept bad treatment without seeing it as the responsibility of the person who's treating us badly. [01:24:26.01]

This is a very large global emotion that I see in different nations all around the Earth. They believe they need a saviour to make them good, and this is why many have then accepted the erroneous concepts of Christianity. I also notice that even when many are not Christians they still have the belief that to be human is to be imperfect. This is not true. God created us with the ability to be perfect and also God did not create any of us with an intrinsic badness. Any feeling of badness that has come about inside of us has either been taught to us or we have been blamed and we need to feel about that. [01:25:41.23]

Our readiness to believe that we are bad or that there is something in us that attracted this bad behaviour causes us to be willing to accept bad behaviour. This then gives a lot of power to people who are willing to engage bad behaviour, because they tell us, "I'm doing this because you want it," or, "Because you deserve it." This is even how national problems have occurred where whole races of people have been treated badly because they've been taught that they are bad. [01:26:41.00]

10.2.1. Our injuries begin as soon as we are conceived

Participant: When you say that a child is too young to do something wrong, that it's the family or the environment that made them feel that, can it be as early as when you are born, for example if the mother has post natal depression? [01:27:28.06]

It can even start before then. The moment a child is conceived it is absorbing the emotions from its parents. So if the mother or father already feels bad about themselves, the child is learning to feel bad about itself. And if the mother and father feel guilt from anything they have done that they're yet to release from themselves, the child will feel guilty about things that it doesn't know anything about, because the feeling of guilt enters the child. [01:28:19.17]

Participant: I feel like I was born with guilt and even in my family my mum says that, "You have guilt in yourself. I don't know where it comes from." Now I think I know. [01:28:55.00]

This is the legacy of a parent not dealing with their own emotion, in that even at conception the child absorbs these emotions and then starts to believe things about itself that are in error. If the parent had released its emotion of guilt then a child would be conceived and born without any feeling of guilt. [01:29:47.29]

Mary: I was just saying to Isabella if her mum is depressed and angry and blaming her as a baby, and then of course she feels it. [01:30:03.10]

May I point out that many mothers when they are pregnant have many uncertain emotions. They often feel like they're not ready for motherhood and this will make the child very afraid about coming into the world. In addition many parents might have had four or five children already and they don't really have a strong feeling of wanting the child, and of course the child will feel that as well. Every emotion that the mother and father feel towards the child, the child will be absorbing. So if the father felt like he wasn't ready for fatherhood and is angry about the pregnancy of his wife, then the little child will feel like they are the cause of their father's rage. [01:31:19.27]

So there are very many emotions that a child will have as a result of what the parents feel during the pregnancy. If you look at the average pregnancy there is often a whole series of emotions that the mother and father are experiencing, and these emotions are entering the child as soon as the child is conceived. It's no wonder that we have so many injuries. [01:32:02.25]

Of course these are the injuries we need to forgive, and if we go through the process of forgiving, we will feel them. It's the feeling of them that creates forgiveness. It's not an intellectual activity, but rather a release of the emotion we have towards the other. [01:32:34.28]

Participant: So I still need to feel the effect of my parents injuring me before I can forgive them. What do I do to feel it? [01:33:01.08]

The fastest possible way to feel it is to go back to your childhood and remember events in which you felt terrible and allow yourself to feel about each of those events. This is the thing that most people avoid because they feel the past is the past, you've got to forget about the past, you've got to get on with life and when they do that they carry around all of those feelings. [01:33:42.13]

You see when we were a child we often wanted to cry about bad things as they were happening, but our parents often suppressed this emotion; they shut us down from crying. And remember the crying is the grieving, this deep sorrow of release. If we were allowed to cry and release the grief when we were a child, we'd have fewer things that we need to clear when we're an adult. But for most of us, and in particular yourself with regard to your father and mother, there was a large amount of damage created with no allowance for you to feel it. So the fastest way to address this emotionally is to go back to these childhood situations and ask God to show you the unfelt emotion in each one of them, and God will show you. God is reliable like that. [01:35:07.20]

These are all very good questions.

11. Closing Words

Tomorrow, in our session "Mediumship with Mary - Repentance and Forgiveness" we'll have some interactions with spirits. We'll help them go back to their childhoods and work through some of their emotions of forgiveness. We'll also help them to see the unloving choices that they have made in their lives and help them to get into a state of repentance. Hopefully you will see the effect it has, as hopefully they will describe the effect it has on them. We don't organise any interaction with spirits in advance so what happens tomorrow happens, but I feel there are many spirits who would like to talk with us about this principle of forgiveness and repentance. So I feel we'll have many opportunities come up tomorrow to discuss those things with them. [01:36:32.06]

I'd love to thank you for your questions today and also for your time. Thank you. (Applause)

Mediumship with Mary - Repentance and Forgiveness: Part 1

Well today what we've decided to do is to do some channelling of different spirits. Remember yesterday we had the discussion about the Law of Repentance and Forgiveness in the discussion "The Truth About - Repentance and Forgiveness", and what we would like to do is help many of these spirits understand this law. We're hoping that through this help that many spirits that we talk to today will be able to be assisted. [00:01:14.05]

**Mary:** And since we decided a week ago to do this talk there have been a lot of spirits already wanting to talk about forgiveness and repentance. [00:01:36.10]

And so there are groups of spirits already waiting in a line and each of them have chosen a spokesperson and I think the first group of spirits is a group of nuns. So we'll just see how we go with them. [00:02:18.10]

12. Channelling with a Brazilian nun called Florentina

**Mary/Florentina:** Hello I am Florentina. I was upon the Earth and I passed some one hundred and fifteen years ago. In my life I lived most of my life as a nun and since I've passed I feel that I have learnt some things but there are many questions that I have. [00:02:56.26]

So were you a nun here in Brazil?

**Mary/Florentina:** Yes. In a place not far from here, although it did not look like this then. [00:03:17.29]

Sao Paulo was much smaller, instead of being nearly twenty million people? [00:03:29.24]

**Mary/Florentina:** Yes it seems that much has changed. I still frequent this place a lot. I am fascinated by the world.

So you mentioned that you had some difficulty, or some questions that you would like to ask. [00:03:58.15]

**Mary/Florentina:** Yes I wish to ask you about these issues that you have spoken of yesterday and I feel somewhat uncomfortable with the medium because I do not prefer this language. [00:04:25.21]

So you would prefer to speak Portuguese?

**Mary/Florentina:** Yes. But I will try to ask the questions, as I am able. When I passed, when I died from the Earth, I thought that I understood the issues of forgiveness and repentance as you call them. I believed that I had lived a good life, a dedicated life and I felt that I should pass with some grace, some goodness.

So what actually happened when you did pass?

**Mary/Florentina:** I knew that I would pass. I was an old woman and it was in this season, the winter that I became sick with a sickness in my chest, and because of the cold I could not recover, and I began to know that this would be my time to pass. I did not feel so worried because I had faith in God and I had spent my life amongst the women serving each other as we were taught. There were some difficulties in this life and so I was not sad to leave it, and so when it came the time to leave I felt it like a leaving of my body, and I felt myself guided or received by others who had been of my order. But upon arriving I found I was amongst these sisters but everything was not as I had expected. I expected the city of gold, the garden of beauty but instead we found ourselves here in a place not dissimilar to where we came from, and I have learnt somewhat from listening in these weeks that there is a possibility of change. Each of us is praying for this change but we do not find it happening. [00:08:35.21]

Have there been any brighter spirits come to you that you've noticed?

**Mary/Florentina:** Once or twice, yes.

And have you managed to converse with them at all?

**Mary/Florentina:** Only a little. We have felt distress at their presence. We have felt that there is a stirring within us that makes us uncomfortable. We wish to worship God and not to be concerned with the earthly things. It is for this that we entered the order but it seems that these bright spirits would have us look to the events in our life on Earth and in the world and we do not wish to. We feel that it should be the relation with God that should guide us to another place. [00:10:20.07]

Have you ever felt about the question of why God created you? [00:10:31.13]

**Mary/Florentina:** I have felt that it would be to love Him and to serve others.

So does it make sense logically that if God was all powerful that God actually needs your love?

**Mary/Florentina:** No, he would not need my love but this would make me good if I loved Him. [00:11:14.29]

How would it make you good?

**Mary/Florentina:** This would lead me to purity and goodness and it is only through this that I have felt any peace or happiness in my life. [00:11:40.03]

Well there are many things that I would like to discuss with you and I would love to help you understand better the principles of repentance and forgiveness. But also I would love to talk with you about the principle of desire because your desire to know more truth about where you are has brought you to this discussion and so I would like to have a very clear discussion with you if you can allow that. [00:12:27.27]

**Mary/Florentina:** Yes. There is a feeling among us that the issue of forgiveness, which we felt we had mastered, was not mastered within us. [00:12:58.02]

What do you feel forgiveness is?

**Mary/Florentina:** That we would love the one who has harmed us despite their harm of us.

12.1. Forgiveness is an emotional release of all pain that has been caused to us

What you describe is what I would classify as the end event. If we go through the actual events that happened in a relationship, or in any interaction with another, we can see that in the beginning there is some kind of interaction. In the case of a person who's harming you, it is often a damaging or violent interaction and it may involve their words or their actions. When they make the statements that they make and do the things they do, inside of you there is an emotional reaction, and for true forgiveness to be complete this emotional reaction must be fully experienced so that it's no longer stored within you. But in your case when these events occurred you felt the emotion rise within you but then you learned to suppress that emotion, with your mind and in the process of suppressing the emotion with your mind, you stopped the flow of the emotion within your soul. You soul is like a container and if you have emotions enter it that are not allowed to leave it then the soul stores the emotions. This changes the colour of your spirit body and also affects your physical body.

**Mary/Florentina:** I wish to tell you my story. I had some fear about doing this but I cannot continue without telling you what my issue is. First can I say that we were taught that because we are forgiven we must forgive?

And that is a true teaching.

**Mary/Florentina:** But we know this forgiveness, we understand the sacrifice of Jesus to be the condition of our forgiveness and therefore I understand that for me to forgive will include some sacrifice. This is something that I did not intellectually understand when I was on Earth but I have spent many years now considering this. [00:17:07.27]

When I was on Earth as a young woman I was raped. I was fifteen years old and at this time there was much shame and I felt that I would enter the convent to leave behind the world. These emotions that you spoke of were so intense in me I felt that I would die. I loved another boy but some men tricked me and raped me, and so I felt that I could now never have my love and I couldn't handle the feelings inside of me. I thought that I would go crazy and it was only when I entered the convent that I felt that I could cope. I understood the sacrifice that was made for me in order that I would be forgiven and I knew that I must learn to forgive. Some years later a priest visited us and he also harmed me. Again I felt that this situation required my repentance that I must have done some wrong for this to happen and it took me many years to feel at peace again. I thought that I had achieved this peace by the time that I passed from this Earth and indeed I felt some peace with my sisters in the spirit world. But when these bright ones came to us this stirred many emotions within myself and the others here. I feel confused and angry that I have not repented or forgiven in the way that I had thought. [00:20:34.23]

Can I first say that it is terrible that such things happened to you and I feel a lot of compassion for your situation. I would like to explain to you the different things that have occurred and maybe help you to understand why they occurred.

**Mary/Florentina:** I do not understand why these things happened in my life.

It seems too, that you have some of what I feel are false impressions about the sacrifice of Jesus, and you are using this as a basis for your desire to forgive, and also as a basis for your desire to sacrifice yourself. So we need to discuss many things and if you can stay present with me while I do this I am sure we can help in many ways. In addition if the other nuns with you can remain they will also benefit from our conversation. [00:22:13.14]

**Mary/Florentina:** Yes. We would like to know the problems.

12.2. We are not responsible for the pain that others have caused us

Firstly can I point out to you that when somebody does something bad to you it is not because of anything you have done but rather it is their choice to be bad, and God apportions the responsibility of their choice to those same people. As a result of this the people who raped you and the priest who also sexually harmed you are in much darker locations in the spirit world and they are having to work through the reasons why they chose to do such things. It is not your fault that they chose such things and there is nothing wrong inside of you that caused such bad things to happen. [00:23:38.28]

**Mary/Florentina:** So we do not need to repent for these things?

That is correct. You do not need to repent for things that were done wrong towards you. You are not to blame for these things and God apportions blame or responsibility to the person who created such things, and so the men who made these decisions are the persons who bear the full responsibility for their decision. Now some of them were also influenced by evil spirits, and both the evil spirits and the men themselves bear responsibility. You do not bear any responsibility for what has happened to you at the hands of others. [00:24:49.28]

**Mary/Florentina:** Thank you but for this reason we ask the question about whether we need to repent because we feel there is something wrong, why are we in this place?

There are two primary reasons why you are in your current location. The first primary reason is that help has been offered to you but you have refused it. The brighter spirits who have come to you have come to you trying to point some things out to you, and your refusal to listen to them has caused you to remain in your current place. Your refusal to listen was based upon one particular emotion and that was the feeling that you had that you would not be able to cope with the different things from Earth that they were encouraging you to feel about. So your fear of the emotions that are inside of you caused you to reject some assistance. One of the justifications for this fear was your belief about what Jesus did. So what we need to do is discuss both issues; your beliefs surrounding Jesus and also your emotions about the events that happened to you on Earth. [00:27:08.13]

Now can you see just by discussing these things already, your spirit body is already a little brighter?

**Mary/Florentina:** Yes and while we feel distressed there is also another feeling coming to us that we have of more...

Of relief.

**Mary/Florentina:** Yes.

And this relief is because when the soul hears truth you automatically feel relief. So I have stated a truth to you when I have said that you are not to blame for the rapes that occurred and you have nothing to repent for in respect to those rapes. This is something that those people need to repent about. So the men and the priest that harmed you they will need to go through repentance with regard to those events. [00:28:42.20]

Of course you have emotions as a result of these events and God wishes to help you feel these emotions. When the emotions flow inside of you God can help you release them but if you use your will to block up the emotions, then God cannot help you release them.

**Mary/Florentina:** Why do we need to feel these emotions?

12.3. We need to feel our pain about how others have harmed us

Well these emotions are now within you and you have been carrying them around all of your life, and these emotions create events of their own so they cause even further damage to you. If you could allow yourself to feel the emotions, you will go through a process of release. Once the emotion has been completely felt it will no longer be with you and you will no longer carry it around. It also will mean that you will change your condition. [00:30:11.21]

These emotions are like bricks that you carry on your back and they create a weight in your heart and if you allow yourself to feel them you can be relieved from this. If you ask for God's assistance to help you do this, God will help you rapidly feel this emotion and God will keep you safe through the process. So there is nothing to worry about, you don't need to worry about going crazy and you don't need to worry that things will get worse if you feel these emotions. It's the feeling of these emotions that will cause the release and once the emotions have been released you will also have forgiven the men that did this harm. [00:31:21.24]

**Mary/Florentina:** When this thing happened to me when I was fifteen I felt that I was falling into a black pit. I couldn't feel love; I felt hatred at them and at me and I'm afraid that I will stay in the pit. It seemed to go on and on and it seemed it only changed when I entered the convent.

Yes when you entered the convent they taught you how to manage these emotions by using a powerful intellect to suppress the emotions and this caused the emotion to dissipate, but as you can see even one hundred years later the emotion is still within you and it's still within you because it's yet to be completely released.

**Mary/Florentina:** Yes I felt safe with my sisters.

And that is understandable given the fact that men harmed you. However it is not the best way to deal with your emotions and while the emotion remains within you, you cannot forgive. It's only once the emotion is released from you that you will be able to forgive. [00:33:29.02]

**Mary/Florentina:** Okay.

Now if I can speak with you about how to do that and also speak with you about your beliefs about sacrifice.

**Mary/Florentina:** Okay.

12.4. AJ reveals his identity

Firstly, if we can talk about your beliefs about Jesus, I must be honest with you because I am Jesus. Now I can bring to you people who can confirm this so that you can understand what has happened. [00:34:21.00]

**Mary/Florentina:** This is very confusing.

And I'm not trying to trick you I can certainly bring some of the apostles from the first century to you who will be able to confirm my identity.

**Mary/Florentina:** We do not want men to come.

The woman that you are channelling through is Mary Magdalene from the first century and we can bring some women to you to confirm this if you wish. Do you know my mother Mary? [00:35:23.24]

**Mary/Florentina:** I cannot understand this.

I understand why, it is sometimes difficult for people to understand when they first hear of it. However we can bring people from the spirit world who are in a bright condition to you to confirm what I am saying.

**Mary/Florentina:** They have come. It is other women from our order who are not like us now.

They are much brighter in their condition.

**Mary/Florentina:** Yes.

And you notice they have a lot of love for you.

**Mary/Florentina:** Yes.

And what is it that they are saying?

**Mary/Florentina:** They are saying it is true, but we cannot understand it.

If I can then explain to you?

**Mary/Florentina:** Yes.

12.5. Jesus did not sacrifice himself for the sake of others

When I was on the Earth in the first century I did not believe that I needed to sacrifice my life for the sake of the sins of others. I came to Earth to teach the Divine Truth, which was about a personal relationship with God and an opening of the soul towards God's Love. I taught that this love could transform the soul and that this love would make a person feel born again. These are the things that I taught on Earth. I did not teach that it was necessary to have a sacrifice for the sins of another, and in fact while I was on Earth I knew it was impossible to actually sacrifice for another in terms of sacrificing for their sins. I understood that God had a law called the Law of Compensation in which each person would be required to make up for their own sins and I also began to understand the law which was the law about receiving God's Love, which was this Law of Repentance and Forgiveness. [00:38:39.03]

**Mary/Florentina:** This is too much this image. It's such a moment.

Remember I said to you at the beginning of this conversation that if you could stay with me until the end of the conversation you would learn many things that would help you?

**Mary/Florentina:** This is now difficult.

Why do you feel it's so difficult?

**Mary/Florentina:** You do not understand the significance that Mary Magdalene has had to me in my life. And Jesus.

No I feel I can understand the significance. Mary had a very difficult life in her first century life and she was harmed many times by men. I also understand the significance of myself being present in the sense that it was my life that you were trying to imitate. [00:40:21.14]

**Mary/Florentina:** And now to hear that we did not do this well and we did not understand you and that we would be in your presence is too much.

Again it is important for you to understand that you are not to blame for the false teachings that have been taught to you. Other people have taught you things that are not true and those people are to blame, or you could say they are the ones responsible for the false teachings. So you have nothing there to repent of because in the end other people taught you these things. But I do understand that it is difficult for you to accept a new teaching when you have for almost two hundred years believed something different. [00:41:43.17]

**Mary/Florentina:** So what is the purpose of sacrifice? This was the basis of our life.

Well this is the thing that you will have much grief about because there is actually no purpose to sacrifice. You were encouraged to sacrifice because of a religious system that encouraged sacrifice rather than being something that was true. While it is a beautiful thing to give to others and these gifts will always be rewarded by God, if you have to sacrifice yourself in order to give, this is a lack of love towards yourself and you have been taught and many of the women with you have been taught that you are not as important as others, but to God each of you is of equal importance and to God you have just as much importance as I do. [00:43:19.07]

**Mary/Florentina:** This cannot be.

Well if we think about it logically you and I are both children of God and therefore you are my sister and therefore we have the same value.

**Mary/Florentina:** But we had understood that you achieved so much although now we do not know.

Well it is true that I have achieved a lot in my life. If you listen to your friends from your order, which are brighter you will find that there are thirty-six dimensions in the spirit world that I and then Mary had a part in creating. In addition there are many billions of people in the spirit world who are now at-one with God as a result of what I taught. [00:44:49.09]

**Mary/Florentina:** So have we not been forgiven?

The first thing to understand about God is that God forgives everyone the instant they do something wrong but you will not feel this forgiveness unless your heart is open emotionally.

**Mary/Florentina:** Many of us have... there is much changing now.

Yes. Can I just help you a little more with the group? If all of you for a moment direct your open heart to God and say to God that you would like to feel God's forgiveness and if you long for God's Love to enter your heart as a feeling you will experience God's Love entering you. You will need to allow yourself to cry because when we receive God's Love it is always an intense emotional experience. [00:46:20.05]

**Mary/Florentina:** Many of us feel angry now and angry with God; when we search our hearts this is what we feel. We have done so much and tried to be so good and many men have hurt us, but we believed that our sacrifice would make it worthwhile.

Firstly if I can point out to you that all the men that have harmed you will have to become repentant or sorry for their actions at some point in the future and if they do not they will remain in the hells of the spirit world. These are locations that you have not yet visited but they are much worse in condition than where you currently exist. In addition God gave all people free will and therefore only the person is responsible for the way in which they use that will. Many people while they are on Earth choose to use their will in a very negative manner. They are very unloving and in the process they damage other people and they also intensely damage their own soul. [00:48:22.06]

**Mary/Florentina:** So why are we in a bad place if they have done this?

12.6. The nuns travel to the men who have harmed them in the spirit world

Well let me first compare the place where you are and the place where they are. The spirits who have arrived with you can briefly take you to the place where these men who have harmed you are, so that you can see the difference in the conditions. Would you like to do that? Well let's just do that briefly.

**Mary/Florentina:** These are bad places.

Much worse than where you currently are. Where you currently are looks similar to the Earth; where they are looks terrible, it's dark and smelly. [00:49:38.24]

**Mary/Florentina:** But there is one who is not. He is bright like the others.

Can I explain how he became bright? He worked out soon after he passed that he needed to become sorry for what he'd done and he prayed to God for forgiveness; he wanted to repair everything that he'd done wrong. He had a penitent heart and as a result of his repentant heart he began to receive some Divine Love over a period of time and this love transformed him. But the others, they did not decide to do this and have yet to decide, and this is why they remain in their current condition. The man who did harm you who is in a bright condition he also had to correct in his heart the reason why he took such action and you can see that he would never take such an action again.

**Mary/Florentina:** He wants to speak with us but we do not feel like we want to speak with him.

I would encourage you at some point in the future to be open to hearing what he has to say because you will find that it will help heal your soul. [00:51:51.14]

**Mary/Florentina:** Yes the others are telling us the same thing.

He is a man who is in sorrow for what he has done and so he is not going to choose to hurt you further, he wants to do everything that he can do to help you become happy so that you can right the wrong that he did.

**Mary/Florentina:** Why do we feel so angry when we see him?

If I can explain why anger comes. Anger covers over our desire to not feel fear and fear covers over our desire to not feel grief. When you feel angry with someone, whether that person is God or Jesus or another man, it is because you have fears that you don't want to feel. And these fears cover over grief, the intense emotions of sadness that you don't want to feel. So the reason why you were so angry with this man is because his very presence reminds you of the damaging things that happened to you that caused you a lot of grief and raised much fear in you. This is why his very presence causes you to feel angry. It is the suppression of the grief and the suppression of the fear that causes the anger. Does that make sense?

**Mary/Florentina:** Yes it does.

So when this man is present, rather than trying to stop the fear and the grief, if you allow yourself to feel the fear and the grief and ask God to help you feel these feelings and keep you safe while you feel them and if you fully allow these feelings to come, they will be released from your soul and you will feel much lighter. You will also be able to live in a much better location because it is only the suppression of your emotions that has caused you to live in your current location.

12.7. The nuns travel to a brighter place in the spirit world

Can you see that many of the women who have been with you have already left?

**Mary/Florentina:** Yes.

If you allow one of the women of your order to take your hand they will be able to show you where these women are now living.

**Mary/Florentina:** It is much nicer.

Can you see that these women were willing to cry? In fact the most emotional of the group are the ones who left first.

**Mary/Florentina:** Yes I see this.

Can you also see that the least emotional of the group has barely changed at all throughout this entire discussion?

**Mary/Florentina:** Yes there are some of us left, some of us who... we feel the fear of these dark emotions.

At the moment you are judging these emotions. These are emotions that are the result of being treated badly; the fear and the grief need to be felt in order to be released from you. If you can allow their release then you can also go to that new location. [00:57:12.22]

12.8. Forgiveness in an emotional experience, not an intellectual experience

**Mary/Florentina:** We have one final question. We see now that we do not need to repent. We thought we should do this, and we see that forgiveness is not through sacrifice. Do we need to forgive as we were taught we must forgive our enemies?

Yes if you look at my life in the first century and you also look at Mary's life in the first century and the brighter spirits with you will be able to help you do this, you will see that there are many times when Mary and myself had to forgive others for what they had done to us. The way that we did this was by feeling our emotions; we allowed the emotion to pass through us so that we didn't hold on to the emotion. By allowing the emotion to flow through us and to be released from us, we automatically forgave the people who harmed us. [00:58:59.29]

So forgiveness was not an intellectual exercise, it wasn't an attempt to love somebody just for the sake of preventing emotion. True forgiveness resulted after we had felt all of our emotions and then we could love them. On Earth I had to practise forgiveness many times and Mary did too. Even some of the men who you believed were good men from the first century harmed Mary and so Mary had a lot of people to forgive. She did not need to repent though for what they had done; you only need to repent for what we have done that is out of harmony with love. [01:00:19.10]

For example if you look at your own life you did not love yourself, and this is one thing that you will need to repent for. You need to allow yourself to love yourself and love of another should not sacrifice love of yourself. When I was on Earth I did not teach sacrifice, it was a teaching that other people added after I died, and so God and myself are not responsible for the bad teachings that you were taught. The men who taught these things, they bear the full responsibility. Many of those men are still in the hells of the spirit world because they refuse to be repentant for the choice to teach other people wrong. [01:01:35.04]

**Mary/Florentina:** Thank you. We feel uncertain as to how to address you or speak with you but you have given us much information and we will try to do this.

Well most persons on Earth are still uncomfortable with my identity as Jesus and so they call me AJ, and you can call me AJ too if you wish.

**Mary/Florentina:** Thank you, AJ.

It's my pleasure.

I wish you well in your future journey in the spirit world. There are many beautiful things for you to see but it requires being open to more truth. Remember I said the truth will set you free and this is not just the truth about the external universe or the truth about God's Laws, but it's also the truth about yourself. [01:03:03.23]

Do you remember at the beginning of this conversation I asked you the question as to why do you feel God created you? And the answer to that question is that God created you so that God could love you and so that you could experience the full results of having God's Love. At this point in time you have only experienced a little bit of God's Love. God has an infinite amount of love to give you, but to be open to receive this love you need to be open to your own emotions because every time you receive God's Love will be an intensely emotional experience and so you will need to allow all of your emotions in order to feel God's Love, and that's what I would like to encourage you to do. The spirits with you will be able to help you to do this. [01:04:22.16]

Many of the women from your same order who used to be nuns like you are, they now have received God's Love in this way and their lives have changed in many ways that have been completely unexpected. There is little knowledge on the Earth about what is possible in the spirit world and you will learn about many of the things that are possible. [01:04:59.21]

**Mary/Florentina:** (Nodding her head) We thank you, all of us.

It is my pleasure.

13. Discussion about the channelling with Florentina

How are you doing darling? (Mary comes out of channelling)

**Mary:** That was very confronting.

Mary obviously has very similar emotions to the lady who we channelled. So there were quite a number of emotions in Mary being triggered whilst she was channelling. What was her name? Florentina. [01:05:47.08]

**Mary:** And they were so impatient also, like, "Come on, come on, come on." And so emotional - the same emotions as me, and then they talked about abuse and... no, it was too much!

Are there any questions that you would like to ask about the channelling itself?

**Participant:** I am wondering, Mary, if you are helped in your emotional processing when you are channelling a person having emotions that invokes the same emotions in you? [01:07:10.11]

**Mary:** In a way yes because it confronts things in me that I'm avoiding, but because I want to give the service to actually give them a voice and not just feel my emotions, sometimes I feel like I have to contain my process in order to keep channelling. I didn't know that this was the story (laughs), just that they came and said they wanted to understand about forgiveness and repentance. Then when AJ started talking then she said, "This is my story and I need to tell it." And then she was very like, I want to tell you, shut up..." (laughs) because she was so emotional herself. [01:08:34.02]

And the only reason why she was resisting telling her story was because she was being sensitive to Mary's own desire to resist her own story. But after she had a proper connection with Mary, and she understood that I knew the story partly, that it was good to tell it in order for her to address her emotions. The reason why I did not proceed into an explanation straight away was because I could feel she had a story to tell that needed to be told in order for me to fully explain the truth about the Law of Repentance and Forgiveness. [01:09:39.23]

13.1. Self-blame and guilt block the process of forgiveness

**Participant:** I see myself much less than most of the other people in Australia in the groups because they can feel more and I've been told many times, "Rita you don't feel it" by Jesus and by others I appreciate very much. So why then am I then attracted to forgiveness and repentance, is it just a mind thing? [01:13:10.25]

This is a very good question for you, Rita. The main reason why you are attracted to the principles of repentance and forgiveness is also the same reason why you are struggling to feel, and the reason for both of these things is that you blame yourself and you would rather blame yourself than you would blame another. Even if the other person is responsible for something they have done to you, you still want to blame yourself. And this is shutting down many of your emotions and this also makes you feel attracted to the teaching of repentance. You believe you need to repent but you are trying to repent for the things that are not your fault and this is impossible. You cannot repent for things that you did not do. The other person has to repent for the things they did to you and you can only learn to forgive. But when you blame yourself and then think you need to repent you will never put the blame on another and then have to go through forgiveness. [01:15:00.16]

You have many reasons why you do not want to forgive and the primary reason is that you are afraid that if you put the blame where it truly lay, which is primarily on your mother and father, that you would then feel that they will no longer love you. And so you have a huge emotional investment in blaming yourself for something you did not do rather than placing the responsibility upon another for something they did do. This prevents you from feeling your true emotions. You are trying to make up emotions related to repentance when you don't need to repent. Rather you need to put the blame on the people who do need to repent, as they are responsible for what they did to you. You need to learn to forgive them and then you will go through many emotions where you will feel quite strong emotions starting from anger, just as these nuns that we spoke to, and then you will go into your fear and your sadness and you will find you are a very emotional woman. [01:17:03.14]

**Participant:** And is it necessary for me to remember what they did to me? [01:17:09.16]

Yes you cannot forgive something that you do not allow yourself to remember. So if you cannot remember, then pray to God first for the memory and then you will have something to forgive. There were many things done to you, for which you have taken the blame and this prevents you from feeling your emotions. Do you remember in the case of the nuns that they were blaming themselves for being raped by men and this prevented them from feeling their emotions? [01:18:02.06]

**Participant:** And that was when I started to cry because they were nuns and they were holy and trying to be so good.

Yes and this is a very good attraction for you and also for Mary. We had the same discussion as I am having with you today, last night. I talked to Mary last night about her desire to blame herself for bad things that others have done to her. Whenever you choose to blame yourself for things that other people have done, you have very many emotional investments shutting down your emotional feelings. You cannot feel sad about things that other people have done as if you are to blame for them. You can only feel sad about what other people have done because of what they've done not because of something you think you did. When you blame yourself for what others have done you cannot process true emotions because it's only true emotions that can be released from the soul. [01:19:57.29]

**Mary:** I just remembered something that I said to AJ last night. I was saying that I feel like all my life I've tried very hard to be good but I've always felt like I'm the worst person in the world and I just thought it might help if... [01:20:31.28]

Was it about how you felt that you were bad? [01:20:35.25]

**Mary:** I felt that I was bad...

Because of what other people have done.

**Mary:** I always tried to be good but I always ended up doing things that it didn't work out or I feel bad about myself again because I would never feel what had been done to me.

13.1.1. An example of giving donations to the poor

**Participant:** Yes that's for me too I always do good things like give donations... I mean I walk on the streets of Sao Paulo and there are a whole lot of people walking but beggars or other people wanting money seek out me; they know exactly who to go to and ask for money and it happened all my life. [01:21:34.24]

Remember I said to you some years ago now that the main reason why you give to others is driven by guilt about yourself. You feel you are responsible for their condition and this is how much you take on the blame of the world.

Yes I still feel responsible.

But this is a way of avoiding your real emotions. If you continue to feel responsible for things that you have not created then you will never be able to get to the things you are responsible for. God only wants us to be repentant for the things that we are responsible for.

So God does not want you to be repentant for the things that you are not responsible for, you only need to be repentant for the things which you actually did do. You did not create the poverty in Sao Paulo nor any other place for that matter. However you do feel responsible for it and this prevents you from feeling deeper grief. There are certain things that have been done to you that other people have blamed you for and this has caused you to feel responsible for things you have not done. Your parents in particular did this to you; they blamed you for things that you did not do and you took on this responsibility in order to gain their love. [01:24:08.12]

**Participant:** Okay.

**Participant:** For me it's not the same; I don't feel responsible for their poverty but I feel guilty because I am not poor; because I have and they don't have.

It's similar but it is a different emotion. When we feel guilt it allows us to do things that we would not normally do. Guilt is a way of avoiding sadness. So when you see a person who is in poverty and then you feel guilt, this guilt is produced because you want to avoid some other emotion. The key is to ask yourself what the emotion is that I am avoiding in that moment. Now sometimes that emotion might be a feeling of sorrow that a person is in poverty and that you do not believe you can help them, or it also can be a feeling of your own family where you had a good life and you feel sad for them that they did not. So there can be many different emotions that cause you to revert to guilt rather than feeling the sorrow. The key is to allow yourself to feel the sorrow and then the guilt will not appear. [01:26:14.24]

**Participant:** So we should go out on the streets and if we see that, start crying?

Allow yourself to be sensitive to the damage that other people have had done to them. The softer we become inside of our heart towards them the more love we will be able to demonstrate to them.

**Participant:** But here in Brazil it's complicated because they are very demanding. Everywhere you park people come and ask for money, and if you don't give they get angry and stuff.

I do not feel it is complicated. If someone is demanding then give them nothing.

**Participant:** That's what I do but sometimes I feel guilty and see everybody giving. [01:27:28.16]

Well if someone is demanding they are already out of harmony with love and if they are out of harmony with love you cannot support them in their actions without acting unlovingly towards them. So if somebody is demanding money off you and you are giving money to them you are being unloving to them. But if someone has a desire to receive without a demand then giving to them is a gift and you are demonstrating love to them. [01:28:24.10]

So if you see a poor person on the side of the road and they have a collection plate, and they are not being demanding, so freely give to those people. But if a person comes up into your face and demands that you give to them, then refuse to give to them and explain to them that they are being unloving and that is the reason why you cannot give, because if you gave you would be supporting their unloving behaviour. But the person who is just sitting on the side of the road in a poor state who's not making demands upon his environment, you can give to freely because that person is not being demanding and not being unloving, and so you would not be supporting his unloving behaviour. [01:29:38.04]

So it's a very simple answer. We just need to ask ourselves is demand love? And if demand is not love then there is no need to respond to the demand. It is always a simple question of love. The problem is though that we see other people giving to the demanding person and then we feel guilt and sometimes guilt motivates our desire, and guilt is not a loving emotion. Guilt is an emotion that responds to demand. [01:30:37.28]

So I think it's time for us to break now and because we are going to have some lovely lunch again. We also have some more spirits who want to speak with us and Mary might find these ones a little easier to channel so we'll do that after the break.

Mediumship with Mary - Repentance and Forgiveness: Part 2

Well we are back from our beautiful lunch, vegan smorgasbord (laughs) and we have some more spirits who would like to speak with us and these are a group of mothers. [00:01:19.06]

14. Channelling with a group of Brazilian women in a dark location in the spirit world

**Mary:** Hello my name is Anita. We are a large group of women from here in Brazil and we have some questions for you. We would wish to make this a happy occasion but in truth there are some difficulties for us here. We cannot understand why things are as they are here, for we believe we have lived good lives. [00:02:14.03]

Can you explain what things are like for you in the spirit world?

**Mary/Anita:** This is difficult and actually it is easier for us to be here on Earth than in our homes in spirit world.

So the Earth is more pleasant to you than the spirit world?

**Mary/Anita:** Yes.

Can you still describe for the people who are here listening what your home is like in the spirit world? [00:03:00.14]

**Mary/Anita:** Yes. We have each a home in the spirit world but each of us must live alone, and we can never have the home clean. It is dark and dirty and many of us feel that there must be rats living in the walls. We clean and clean but it never changes and there is a feeling there with us, a lost feeling; we feel we want our family with us but we can never find them even though we know many of them have passed from the Earth also. We only find each other; it's as if we are in a neighbourhood but everything is dark and smelly and we feel this lost feeling. When we come to Earth we can be in places familiar to us and even though we can't find our families, we often sit with other families and we share in their love and they have a similar life to what we had. [00:05:01.12]

And do you find yourself influencing those families?

**Mary/Anita:** Yes we feel we are able to have some good influence with them. We feel we help the mothers to run their family and to raise their children.

You wanted to say something more?

**Mary/Anita:** Well we do not really understand why we are here speaking with you.

Did somebody bring you to us?

**Mary/Anita:** Yes.

And how many of you are there?

**Mary/Anita:** There are many of us - two thousand. As we are speaking there are more coming and none of us understand why we are here. [00:06:16.13]

Well you're here because there's an opportunity to find out why your home in the spirit world is so dirty and why it is that you can clean and clean but nothing ever gets better.

**Mary/Anita:** That would be good - we would like to know how to clean our homes.

Well to understand what is going on you need to understand that you have a soul, and the soul is not the body that you look at. When you look down you can see your own body, what do you notice about its condition?

**Mary/Anita:** We feel that it is similar to our homes; we try to make it better and beautiful but always it seems we are stuck with this old weary body. [00:07:33.07]

Have any of you looked in the mirror to see what you look like now?

**Mary/Anita:** No.

Would you like to?

**Mary/Anita:** We do not see much necessity for the mirror we are mothers and grandmothers.

And you have no interest in your personal appearance?

**Mary/Anita:** We could look.

Well I'm going to bring some people with some mirrors so that you can have a look. [00:08:26.20]

**Mary/Anita:** This is a trick.

No, it's no trick.

**Mary/Anita:** How can we look so terrible?

Well this is what I would like to explain.

**Mary/Anita:** This is horror.

If I can explain why your house looks bad and why your bodies look bad and why even your face looks bad, this will give you an opportunity to change it to become more beautiful. You are able to change your house so that it becomes more beautiful and you're able to change your body so that it's more beautiful, and you're able to even change the appearance of your face to become more beautiful, but you need to understand why it's like it is before you can change. [00:09:46.02]

**Mary/Anita:** Okay.

14.1. Our surroundings in the spirit world and our spirit body reflect our condition of love

Okay. There are many sayings on the Earth and one is that your soul determines the brightness of your body. In other words the emotions within your soul and the beliefs within your soul determine how loving your soul is and this then determines your appearance. While you are on the Earth you can put potions on your face and you can wash in the bath and your body changes its appearance, and it is able to become more beautiful, but in the spirit world this is not possible. The body is a direct reflection of the condition of love in the soul and the spirit body is a direct reflection of the amount of love that is in your soul. And the home that you have is also a direct reflection of the love that is in your soul. This is a basic fundamental truth about the spirit world. But it is not your definition of love; it is God's. [00:11:43.08]

**Mary/Anita:** We feel this is a mistake because we know we are loving.

Does God make mistakes?

**Mary/Anita:** In this case.

So you sincerely believe that God has made a mistake in this case?

**Mary/Anita:** How can it be that we look terrible, how can it be?

Because your definition of love is not love and it is not the same as God's definition of love.

**Mary/Anita:** How is it different?

Well there are many ways that it it's different than what you believe love to be. But before we discuss the details of how it is different we need to help you understand. Do you notice that the condition of your house and the condition of your body and the condition of your face, do you notice that they all match each other? And this is no mistake on God's part. God's Laws are consistent for every single person and God does not make mistakes. I can bring to you a woman who has a better house and who has a prettier body and a prettier face and you will also be able to feel that she has a different condition of love. Would you like to meet such a person? [00:13:43.16]

**Mary/Anita:** Yes.

We'll bring another Brazilian lady who is in a different condition.

**Mary/Anita:** This is how we should look, yes.

So can you describe her?

**Mary/Anita:** Yes she's young or younger and slim and she has colour and she looks beautiful. [00:14:24.13]

Would you like to ask her how old she is?

**Mary/Anita:** This doesn't seem possible. She says she is two hundred. How is it that she can look like this and we, when we pass at eighty or seventy, and we look like this - worse?

Well the woman who's standing in front of you has learned about God's definition of love and she has learnt what love really is, and to do that she had to give up what she believed love to be. Would you like to see a picture of what she looked like when she first passed? [00:15:25.28]

**Mary/Anita:** Like us. Hey you must tell us how do we change this?

Well at the moment you believe you are loving, but as this woman had to learn, you also need to learn that many of your actions have been unloving. This woman learnt to be repentant or sorrowful for her unloving actions and she prayed to God for forgiveness for what she came to see as her unloving actions. Initially when she passed over she believed she was a loving person but she had the same confusion as you have in that her body and her face and also her home all looked very ugly, and she wondered why this was the case. And so she began to ask and when she asked some other brighter spirits came to her and told her that her definition of love was not the same as God's definition of love, and what she believed was loving was actually very unloving. And it was her unloving actions and beliefs that caused the condition of her body and her face and her home. [00:17:25.21]

**Mary/Anita:** So what must we learn about love?

Well firstly many of you are influencing people on the Earth to do the same thing that you did when you were upon Earth but now you are seeing that what you must have done on Earth from God's perspective was unloving. So the first thing that is very important to do, is to stop doing these things on Earth that you believe are loving but would just create the same kind of person that you've become. [00:18:18.00]

**Mary/Anita:** Yes this is difficult because we feel this is our only pleasure in life, to be with the families on Earth.

When you come to be with the families on Earth you are avoiding your home in the spirit world and this helps you avoid your feelings about being in those homes. What would be better is that you allow yourself to sit in your home for a while and begin to feel the feelings that you feel there. One of the feelings you have already described is that you desperately want your family around you, and when you think about your life on Earth, you also desperately wanted your family around you there. And in fact you manipulated and controlled your family many times in order to have your family with you. [00:19:35.14]

**Mary/Anita:** What do you mean by this last thing?

Well sometimes members of your family wanted to leave home and sometimes you made it very difficult for them to do so.

**Mary/Anita:** This is because we knew it was best that they stay with us.

Well this is one of your definitions of love that is completely different to God's. You see God's definition of love is that every one of us has free will and if somebody else desires to use that will; we would support their decision. [00:20:24.06]

**Mary/Anita:** But if we can see what is best for our children and if we can care for them better than they can care for themselves, isn't it better that they stay with us?

Well firstly I put to you that you cannot see what is best for your children because, is where you currently are at your home in the spirit world best for your children, would you like your children to live in this home?

**Mary/Anita:** No.

And if that is the case then you do not know what is best for your children. You created this home in the spirit world based on your condition of love and therefore you do not know what is best for your children because the home in the spirit world is reflecting your condition of love. [00:21:28.16]

**Mary/Anita:** In this case we do not understand love at all.

That is the first statement I have to agree with completely. You do not understand love at all and your condition of your body and your condition of your face and your home show you how much you do not understand about love. What you believe love to be is control and demand and these things are not loving at all. Many Brazilian mothers feel exactly the same and yet they are in the same condition of love as you. When they pass over into the spirit world they will find themselves in very similar locations. [00:22:31.03]

**Mary/Anita:** Well we do not understand... this is how we know love to be.

I'm sorry but I can't agree that you know it. You have assumed love to be the way you've believed but the condition of your body and of your home is illustrating that your belief must be incorrect because the woman standing in front of you is in a completely different physical condition. If she could show you a picture of her home you could see that her home is a mansion. [00:23:17.06]

**Mary/Anita:** So what does she do that is different from us?

She loves as God's definition of love is and she has not held on to her own opinions about love. She has come to see that her opinions of love were not love at all but they were demand, expectation, and anger. It was all about control. And your desire to control your environment has resulted in you ending up with no one to control. You cannot even control your own home anymore. You cannot even put effort into cleaning it, and it become clean. It remains dirty no matter what you do and it remains dirty because of the condition of your soul. Because the condition of your soul believes itself to be loving but it is in fact very unloving, your home has been created as a result of that. [00:24:44.06]

I realise that this information is very confronting but it also has some joy to it in that you have the possibility of having the home of the woman standing in front of you. [00:25:02.27]

**Mary/Anita:** And then would our family come?

Well they would feel more drawn to come, yes. But they may not necessarily come because your understanding of the family is very different to God's understanding of the family.

14.2. From God's perspective we are all one family of equal brothers and sisters

From God's perspective your children are not actually your children, they are God's children and they are your brothers and sisters whom God entrusted into your care. So from God's perspective we are all one family. You are my sister and I am your brother. I am your brother as much as your own son is your brother and I am your brother as much as your own father is your brother. From God's perspective we are all God's children and we all have the same mother and we all have the same father and that is God. [00:26:23.22]

God created our soul and when we came to Earth, two bodies were created through our parents having sex. One body was the spiritual body, which is what you have now, and one body was the material body, which has now died for you. These two bodies are not your soul. Your soul is a unique container of your true personality, and while you were on Earth you chose to exercise your desires of your soul in a direction that was against God's Love and this caused a harming of your body and caused the creation of your home. And the more you embraced unloving behaviour on Earth the more ugly and smelly your home became and the more ugly your own body became. [00:27:48.13]

**Mary/Anita:** This raises many questions for us. Firstly many of us feel the best thing that we did in our lives on Earth was to become mothers.

Well it is not the best thing you will ever do. The reality is that any woman on Earth can become a mother but that doesn't mean it is the best thing. Just because anybody can do it just by having sex it doesn't mean that you're doing a good thing. [00:28:35.25]

**Mary/Anita:** But we felt that we did more than just have sex. We cared for our home, we made the meals for our family, and we were present with our children very often.

And some of those things that you did were loving, but you also had high levels of control of your family. You manipulated and controlled many of your children and also manipulated and controlled your husband many times. You made your children believe that they could not look after themselves and that they needed you to look after them and this was very damaging to their life. You also made your husbands believe that your relationship to them was secondary and that your more important role was your role with your children. You made your husbands subservient to you. Your husbands served you and kept you safe and in return you looked after them. [00:30:07.17]

**Mary/Anita:** What is wrong with placing our children first? We feel this is correct.

Well firstly they are not your children; they are God's. They have been entrusted to you to teach the way God wanted you to teach.

**Mary/Anita:** But surely then this is more reason that we should place them first.

From God's perspective all of his children are equal and one child should not be placed above another. Your husband was one of God's children, you are another of God's children, and the children are also one of God's children. So from God's perspective all of you should be treated equal. You cannot set yourself up as an authority over your children; you are only their temporary teacher. Also you cannot set yourself up as an authority over your husband because he is equal to you. Your children and your husband are equal to you. You are not their servant and they are not yours. [00:31:45.27]

**Mary/Anita:** Two questions. The first is when the child is small it cannot know things and it needs care. This child is not my equal.

I'm sorry this is where you digress. While it is true that when the child is little it needs your care, this does not mean you are its authority; the person who cares for another, serves another. He does not set himself up as an authority over the other so while the child needed your care and your love it did not need your control or your manipulation, or your demands; these are all unloving behaviours. The child is equal to you in God's eyes and therefore the child deserves as much recognition as God feels you deserve. You have set yourself up above your children, you believe you can tell them what to do and that they should listen to you, and this is the beginning of your error. [00:33:34.17]

**Mary/Anita:** We do not see that we were controlling but maybe we see something now.

Well if we can always go back to the appearance, the appearance of your home now in the spirit world and the appearance of your face and body are an indication that something is wrong and if you cannot accept that something is wrong then you will not be able to change. [00:34:13.20]

14.2.1. Love is a gift, and allows people their own desires and passions

**Mary/Anita:** It is not that we feel there is nothing wrong; it is only that we try to understand what you say, but it seems strange to us. We have more questions. In regard to our husbands, you spoke about the service to them and them serving us. Isn't this love? That one person in the marriage would do some things and another the other things?

No again this is a false definition of love. This is a definition of love that the Earth has but it is not God's definition of love. God's definition of love is that each person would follow their own desires and passions and when they truly desire to give to the other, this gift would be a gift of love. But they would not feel like they have to give, because it's no longer a gift of love but a demand. [00:35:45.08]

**Mary/Anita:** But how then can a family stay together if they each do what they want whenever they want?

God's desire is that a family does not stay together. God wants each member of the family to recognise their own desires and passions and to follow their desires with a passion. When a family does this, each member will be going out into the world and embracing all of their world experiences. This will bring them rich joy and this improves their ability to see themselves as they truly are. When a couple want to marry and be together they must leave their families to form a new family. So the reality is that God does not desire families to stay together because God sees us all as one family and therefore a family that we can all be together. When we honour our family over others, we are now being bigoted and prejudiced against others of God's children. The reality is that we need to have a love for all of God's children to an equal degree. [00:37:37.11]

**Mary/Anita:** Then why did God create families?

Because God wished you to experience the feeling that God has for you. So when you have a true love for your family and you wish them to go out and explore the world and you wish to give them the gift of your love without expecting anything in return, this is exactly the feeling God has for you.

**Mary/Anita:** This is very different to what I learnt as a child. I learnt that family was the most important thing and the most important thing was to keep a family together. And that this was my measure of worth as a woman.

And these things are not true. From God's perspective you have much greater worth than just keeping a family together and from God's perspective there is no need to keep a family together because God is already keeping Her family together. [00:39:09.22]

**Mary/Anita:** I feel much sadness to feel that I cannot hold on to this family that I wish to hold.

I understand the sadness, but it comes from your desire to hold on to things that were not yours in the first place.

**Mary/Anita:** And what would I do with...

With your life?

**Mary/Anita:** Yes what purpose do I have?

14.2.2. God wishes us to discover our passions and desires

Well when you set yourself up as your only purpose being to be a mother, you are neglecting the fact that God created you for a completely different purpose. All of your life while you were on Earth you denied your own passions and desires in order to give to your family, but God wishes you to discover your passions and desires and to follow that life with a passion. This is going to be quite difficult for you because you have denied a lot of your passions and desires in order to maintain the family. And also you have suppressed the passions and desires in your family so that your family stayed with you. So there has been a gross disrespect of desire and passion. [00:41:03.13]

**Mary/Anita:** So I have not been myself and I have stopped others from being them selves?

This is correct.

**Mary/Anita:** So what should I do now?

The life you currently have is showing you that something is wrong with the love, so my first course of action would be if I was you would be to try to discover more about God's Love and what real love will do. The woman that I have brought to you has many friends who would like to help you. Would you like to meet some of these women and they can show you what real love is all about? [00:42:08.18]

**Mary/Anita:** Yes, she seems very friendly.

And she is very loving, yes? And on top of that she is beautiful and she has a lovely home.

**Mary/Anita:** Yes.

So if I bring some more of her friends, if we ask them to come now.

14.3. Progressing in love requires us to learn God's definition of love

Can you see now that we have many thousands of friends all who are wanting to help you but it's going to mean that you need to give up your definition of love and learn to accept God's definition of love. It's also going to mean that you need to feel sorry about the things that you've done that have been out of harmony with love, and you'll have emotions that you need to feel. Sometimes these emotions will be very intense and overwhelming. [00:43:21.17]

You will find that as you do this you will begin to find other members of your family in the spirit world but instead of seeing them as somebody that you have to be with, you will be able to enjoy each other's company and let each other enjoy each other's life. You will not feel like you have to bind them to you because the reality is you'll be able to find them anywhere in the spirit world once you are in the right condition. When you are in a condition of a lot of love, you can travel in all locations of the spirit world and so you can find the people in any location. Some of your family members are in higher locations than you in spirit world and other members of your family are in lower locations in the spirit world, and you can visit any of the locations that are lower than your own condition. So if you wish to visit the people who are higher in the spirit world you will need to improve your condition of love. [00:45:03.13]

**Mary/Anita:** This feels very strange and different. We feel unprotected, alone, but we can see a way forward.

The reality is that nobody in the entire universe is actually ever alone. God is always with us because God always has Her Love for Her children. You will always have love for your children but you will come to see that they are not your children, but rather they are God's children. And you will also come to have a very similar type of love for other people that you have not yet met.

**Mary/Anita:** Many of us now feel, as you speak of this, sadness when you say that we will not see them as our own children.

May I point out to you an addiction that you have? You have desired to be mothers and so that it gave you a feeling of belonging, it gave you a role, it helped you avoid your true desires and nature, and when somebody then takes this away from you, you feel immense sadness. The reality is God did not design you just to be a mother. While you had a female body you could give birth to children but that was not the only thing that God desired for you to experience. God desired you to experience many other things. There are desires that you currently have unfelt inside of yourself and this role of being a mother has stopped you to a degree from finding these desires. The reality is that your children are always going to be cared for by God because they are God's children and God always cares for Her own children. However, God wants you to understand that you are also one of God's children and God wishes to have a personal relationship with you and for you to engage your passions and desires and to discover your true personality and nature. This is going to involve far more than just having children. [00:48:35.07]

So allow yourself to feel this sadness, let yourself cry about what you believed, but also let yourself feel the new truth that is being presented to you because this will help you grow in your condition so that you will look very similar to the women that are now in front of you.

**Mary/Anita:** We would like this.

My suggestion is that you listen carefully to these women and you do everything possible that they suggest. Some of the things you may not initially understand but please put some effort in to trying to understand. These women will be able to show you to a more happy location and a general rule in the spirit world is this - if the spirit is of brighter condition then that spirit knows more about love and they are also happier and that it is always worth trusting what they say. [00:50:08.13]

**Mary/Anita:** Thank you. We feel now we understand more of why we were led here today.

If you think that if you had not been led here today you may have been living in these homes in the spirit world for a long time whereas now you have the opportunity to have a more prettier home and also a more beautiful face and body, but even more importantly the opportunity to learn about love and this is of extreme importance to the rest of your life. [00:50:57.26]

**Mary/Anita:** Already there are some of us who feel less interested in having a home than exploring.

Many of you were stuck in your home, you created a prison of your own making, which stopped you from being able to explore life, and some of you are now realising that you've missed out on different experiences that you could have had in your life.

**Mary/Anita:** Yes this is what many of us feel now. There is a cocktail of emotions inside of us.

And that will be the case. The key is to allow yourself to feel these emotions and to learn much more about living a life in desire. But don't neglect God in this decision because remember it was all about God's definition of love in comparison with your own that caused your condition. So the more you learn from God, God's definition of love, the greater capacity you have to grow and to love others and therefore the greater capacity you have to have a happy life. [00:52:38.09]

**Mary/Anita:** Yes, thank you.

It is my pleasure. How long have you been in this place in the spirit world?

**Mary/Anita:** It varies for each of us, for myself some seventy years.

So when you first arrived in the spirit world did you go immediately to your home?

**Mary/Anita:** No I spent time with my family until their time of passing and then I went to my home expecting them to be there but they weren't.

And the reason is because every single person has a different condition of love and so they have their own home that they have created in the spirit world. Some of those homes are of better condition and some of those homes are worse condition and the condition is a reflection of their soul. And when you find members of your family, if they have not learned this basic truth, this is something that you can teach them. Also you can teach any new person that passes over from Earth this truth that you have discovered, and also many of the women on Earth, they also need to learn this truth and you could help influence them to find that truth. [00:54:38.02]

**Mary/Anita:** This seems like turning a boat that has been going in one direction to turn in the opposite direction.

That is very true. It takes time to slow down and stop and then turn around and then to speed up again.

**Mary/Anita:** And we feel we have been influencing the boat in one direction and now we find that this is the wrong direction.

Yes so you have been teaching families errors about love and it's very important that you try to correct these errors; otherwise these people will end up in the same condition you arrived in, in the spirit world. [00:55:40.00]

**Mary/Anita:** We do not want that.

No one would want that for his or her family or any person.

**Mary/Anita:** No. Thank you we feel we should go now and learn.

Your friends have many things to teach you and it is best that we let them do that. If you need to return to Mary or myself because there are things you do not understand, we would be happy to explain them to you. [00:56:19.14]

**Mary/Anita:** Thank you and thank you for your time.

It's a pleasure.

15. Discussion about the channelling

Are there any questions about that?

**Mary:** They were much more pleasant (laughter). Pleasantly ignorant I think.

**Participant:** Just a statement. Even though it's level one, it's really important and basic for this type of presentation to be given to Brazilian families who are doing exactly this.

15.1. False beliefs about the roles of the family in Brazil

Yes it's a big thing with close families to have either a patriarch or a matriarch who basically determines the direction of the entire family. They do not realise that they are taking away the free will of each family member by doing this. If I take an action that takes away your expression of free will then my own condition of love degrades and as my condition of love degrades so does my personal appearance in my spirit form and also the location of my home in the spirit world also degrades. [00:57:58.25]

In the first century I said to people that I am helping them create mansions in the spirit world by helping them change their soul to become more loving, but unfortunately many people passed over from the Earth to the spirit world and they have very bad homes to live in, similar to these women. [00:58:31.03]

**Mary:** And most people think they're doing the right thing in their family.

When the reality is they do not know the true definition of love. So it's very important to understand God's definition of love if we're truly going to help ourselves and also help others. And also this concept of family on the Earth is very distorted from God's perspective because we are all brothers and sisters, and nobody on Earth deserves more of our attention than another person. So each person is equal in God's eyes and while I put my family above others I am creating inequality and this is very destructive to my family. [00:59:42.02]

**Mary:** And how does the position that God places me in as a parent differ in that way?

Well God placed me in two positions when I am a parent. The first position is that I experience the joy of giving my love and this is a gift to others, not something that I must demand something in return, and God's giving me an opportunity to learn that. The second thing is, God is giving me an opportunity to share in the creative process and by sharing in the creative process, if I understand that God is the creator, then I'll understand that I am a surrogate parent, a parent who has the ability to teach what I know about God to my children, who are not really my children but rather are my younger brothers and sisters. And while I have this respect for my younger brothers and sisters and I wish to care for them, I will always make sure that I have God's understanding that I'm giving to my children rather than my own opinions. If I have opinions that are out of harmony with God's and I inculcate them and train them into my children, then my children will grow up having false opinions and this will be quite harmful to them. [01:02:11.28]

So as you say, Denny, it is a very important thing for families on Earth to understand.

**Participant:** It's also the wisdom of looking at the hierarchy of control and the need for the equality. In Brazilian families, the hierarchy is important.

Yes it's important for all families to recognise that we are all equal in a family and the parents have the role to teach their younger brothers and sisters the truth about God. They do not have the role to control the will of their younger brothers and sisters but they do have the responsibility of teaching their younger brothers and sisters the proper use or the loving use of their will. [01:03:23.00]

**Mary:** So the consequences of using their will out of harmony with love...

Yes so it is appropriate for a parent to show the child a negative consequence for the use of their will that is unloving and it is also appropriate for the parent to demonstrate the positive effects when the child uses their will in a loving direction. In this way the parent becomes a surrogate for God because this is exactly what God is trying to do with all of Her children. [01:04:11.24]

All of God's Laws are set up in such a way as to show us when we're being unloving and to show us when we're being loving, and we need to do the same as parents. And when we have this viewpoint we will no longer believe in a hierarchy where the grandparents rule the parents and then the parents rule the children. We will no longer believe in that as a way a family will operate. Instead we all feel equal to each other and those who have learnt more about love will help their younger brothers and sisters to learn as much as they know. Also they will not restrict the will of their younger brothers and sisters, they won't tell them what to do, nor will they emotionally blackmail or manipulate their children into doing something that they believe is right for the child but that the child does not want to do. [01:05:49.04]

**Participant:** There is a phenomenon in Brazil that children leave home and after a while they return. So after they get married and it doesn't work, or even later on, they go back home to the parents and the parents love to receive them back. Does this have to do with guilt?

No, it's more to do with what the parents have created. In creating this hierarchical system the parents have created the child to be dependent upon the parent emotionally. So when the child goes out into the world and then fails in certain emotional aspects of their life, the child feels the only person they can return to is the parent. And in reality what the parent has done is created a belief in the child that it's unable to have its own life without the involvement of the parent. So the parent has created a reliance on the parent and this reliance exists within the child. So the child comes running home to the parent every time the child feels it cannot handle its own life and this creates very insecure people, people who are unable to fully cope with the responsibilities of adulthood and this is a very damaging thing to do to your children. [01:07:47.05]

It is much better that the child grows up and is able to look after itself in every possible way; this is what God intends that each child is able to look after itself physically, emotionally, spiritually without needing to go running to mummy and daddy to get support in any of those areas.

The other thing is, many parents want their children to believe what the parent believes and this makes the parent feel valid, but it is much better that the child goes out into the world and even discovers more than what the parent knows because then when the child comes home it is able to teach the parent the extra things that it has discovered. [01:08:54.16]

**Mary:** In that way we progress as a society, don't we? Otherwise we're held and restricted.

Societies that are hierarchical find it very, very difficult to progress emotionally, spiritually and also scientifically because the parents want the child to only know what the parent knows and no more. But a true parent wants the child to discover all things and to experience all things that the child wishes to and this is very different to a hierarchical structure. [01:10:02.17]

15.1.1. An example of caring for mentally disabled children

**Participant:** Up to what point does the control of a father reach when the child has mental difficulties?

Obviously if the child has mental or emotional difficulties that cause it to not be able to care for itself there is something in the parents, or in the society at large, or in the spirit influence that's coming upon the child that has caused the child to be unable to develop intellectually or emotionally. The first thing the parent needs to do is to work through their own emotional issues that may have caused these attractions. Often then these spirits that come and influence such children leave the children and the child is free to develop its intellectual capacity, which will allow it to grow. But obviously if the child still cannot care for itself appropriately then the role falls upon all of society to assist this child that has a personal injury. It should not fall just upon the parents because the parent also needs to have a life and the child therefore needs to discover things for itself. But many societies cause only the parent to look after this child and this is not a loving thing to do to the child or the parent. [01:12:14.20]

**Participant:** But this is Brazil.

It is like this in many areas on the Earth but it doesn't mean its right. We want to always start doing what God does. In the spirit world any person who is intellectually disabled is helped to work through the reasons why they are such until such a time that they can look after themselves. [01:12:56.26]

**Participant:** Just hand it over to God.

We need to do more than handing it over to God because we need to see that we have been a part in the creation of what's happening in our environment. God cannot clear from us things that we are unwilling to clear from ourselves, so we need to examine our own unwillingness and clear away from ourselves the things that impact upon others in our environment. When we have a burning desire to do this then God will assist in the process, but not before this. [01:14:01.24]

**Mary:** Often it's true that a parent with a child with a disability gets trapped in the guilt feelings and this stops them from feeling the true emotions that caused the problem and the emotions that they also have inside of themselves now. So we have to be willing to let go of guilt and feel our grief and freedom comes through this process. [01:14:56.02]

16. Closing Words

There are more sprits that would love to talk, but its time for us finish. So maybe we'll get a chance through the coming week to talk to a few more of them, even if that means that myself and Mary do that privately and we record that so that you can translate it later.

Thank you for our small intimate audience. It was lovely having lunch with you today and we've enjoyed our time here in Sao Paulo. So good night our friends.

