ANALYST KYLE MURPHY HAS NOW
RESIGNED FROM HIS POSITION AT
THE PENTAGON WITH THIS AS HIS
STATEMENT OF PROTEST.
JOINING ME IS MR. MURPHY, FORMER
SENIOR ANALYST WITH THE DIA, AND
SERVED AT THE WHITE HOUSE AS THE
DIRECTOR FOR WEST AFRICA.
MR. MURPHY, THANK YOU FOR BEING
HERE, I REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR
TIME.
>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
>> SO I READ YOUR PIECE WITH
GREAT INTEREST.
IT ALSO RESONATED WITH ME IN A
DEEP AND SCARY WAY BECAUSE I
FEEL LIKE WHAT YOU ARE SAYING
ABOUT WHY YOU RESIGNED AND WHAT
YOU ARE RECOGNIZING IN WHAT’S
GOING ON IN OUR COUNTRY RIGHT
NOW IS VERY DARK AND IS VERY
SERIOUS AND FEELS LIKE A REAL
WARNING.
AND I JUST WANTED TO ASK IF I’M
TAKING YOU TOO SERIOUSLY HERE OR
IF YOU ACTUALLY MEAN THIS AS
GRAVELY AS IT SEEMS.
>> NO, RACHEL, I THINK YOU’RE
RIGHT, I THINK THIS IS THAT
SERIOUS.
AND I THINK WE NEED TO BE
THINKING ABOUT WHAT HAPPENING IN
OUR COUNTRY, THE WAY WE OFTEN
LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENS IN OTHER
COUNTRIES.
SO IN MY PERSONAL CASE, AS YOU
SAID, I RESIGNED BECAUSE I LOST
CONFIDENCE IN THE MOST SENIOR
DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE LEADERS
AFTER THEY TREATED ME AND OTHERS
WHO WERE DEMONSTRATING
PEACEFULLY FOR RACIAL JUSTICE
LIKE ENEMIES.
SEEING THAT THEY WERE UNWILLING
TO STAND UP TO THE PRESIDENT, I
FELT I NEEDED TO LEAVE
GOVERNMENT, SHARE WHAT I WAS
SEEING AND HOW SIMILAR IT LOOKED
TO OTHER AUTHORITARIAN STATES
AND TO DO EVERYTHING I COULD TO
PREVENT THE SITUATION FROM
GETTING WORSE.
>> THAT’S A REMARKABLE STORY
ABOUT YOU AS A PERSON AND HOW
PERSONALLY YOU GOT TO THAT
PLACE.
I ALSO FEEL LIKE, THOUGH, YOU’RE
SORT OF INVITING US TO TAP YOUR
EXPERTISE AS TO WHAT THE
SOLUTION IS HERE.
WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT LOSING
CONFIDENCE IN THE MILITARY AND
IN THE CIVILIAN LEADERSHIP OF
THE PENTAGON, POTENTIALLY IN THE
JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, HOMELAND
SECURITY LEADERSHIP AS WELL, IN
TERMS OF WHETHER OR NOT THEY ARE
STANDING UP FOR DEMOCRATIC
PRINCIPLES, THEY’RE STANDING UP
FOR WHAT’S RIGHT RATHER THAN
JUST BECOMING A TOOL OF THE
PRESIDENT, I FEEL LIKE YOU’RE
THE KIND OF PERSON I WOULD ASK
ABOUT HOW WE AS CITIZENS AND WE
AS A COUNTRY CORRECT FOR THAT.
I THINK WE ALL HOPED THAT THERE
WOULD BE SENIOR LEADERSHIP IN
THOSE ENTITIES IN OUR COUNTRY
THAT WOULD JUST DO THE RIGHT
THING, AND THAT WOULD FORM A
BARRIER WHERE THE PRESIDENT
COULDN’T CROSS AND COULDN’T DO
THINGS THAT AREN’T SUPPOSED TO
HAPPEN IN OUR COUNTRY.
IF THEY’RE NOT A BARRIER, IF
THEY’RE NOT DOING THE RIGHT
THING, HOW DO WE CORRECT FOR
THAT?
>> SURE.
SO AS I MENTIONED IN THE PIECE I
WROTE, WHAT I’VE SEEN IN MY WORK
AND LOOKING AT OTHER COUNTRIES,
THE BASICS OF PARTICIPATORY
DEMOCRACY ARE WHAT’S MOST
EFFECTIVE IN COUNTERING
SITUATIONS LIKE THIS.
MASSIVE VOTER TURNOUT, CITIZENS’
REPORT FOR CAMPAIGNS, AND
PEACEFUL DEMONSTRATIONS THAT
SHAPE ELECTORAL POLITICS.
THERE ARE SEVERAL KEY THINGS
THAT ALL OF US CAN DO NOW AND
CAN HELP OTHERS TO DO, AND
THAT’S REGISTER TO VOTE, PROTECT
OUR VOTING PROCESS, ORGANIZE OUR
COMMUNITIES TO SUPPORT THE
LEADERS WHO VALUE DEMOCRATIC
INSTITUTIONS, AND GET EVERY
ELIGIBLE VOTER TO CAST THEIR
BALANCE ON THE
BALLOT AND MAKE SURE IT’S
COUNTED.
THESE ARE THE THINGS, WHEN I
LOOK AT THE CONTEXT, THE THINGS
I HAVE WORKED ON THE IN THE
WHITE HOUSE, THIS WAS WHAT WAS
EFFECTIVE IN CONVINCING LEADERS
WHO WERE HEADED TOWARD
DISRESPECTING THE WISHES OF
THEIR PEOPLE TO CHANGE COURSE,
OR WHO HAD ACTIVELY TRIED TO
SUBVERT THE WILL OF THEIR OWN
PEOPLE, THESE WERE THE SORT OF
THINGS THAT WERE EFFECTIVE IN
CHANGING THEIR MINDS OR FORCING
THEIR HANDS.
>> YOU MENTIONED ABOUT
PROTECTING OUR VOTING PROCESS.
I’VE DONE A LOT OF COVERAGE OF
VOTING RIGHTS ISSUES OVER THE
YEARS.
WE’VE NEVER BEFORE HAD A
NATIONAL ELECTION IN THIS KIND
OF AN ENVIRONMENT WITH THE KIND
OF THREATS YOU’RE DESCRIBING,
WHERE WE ALL ALSO, OR A LOT OF
US, ARE SUPPOSED TO BE GETTING
OUR BALLOTS OR SUBMITTING OUR
BALLOTS THROUGH THE POSTAL
SERVICE AND THE PRESIDENT IS NOW
OPENLY SAYING THAT HE WANTS TO
DENY RESOURCES TO THE POSTAL
SERVICE AND WE’RE WATCHING HIS
HAND-PICKED LEADER OF THE POSTAL
SERVICE RESTRUCTURE IT IN WAYS
THAT SEEM DESIGNED TO MAKE SURE
THAT THAT BREAKS.
JUST IN MY IN BOX TONIGHT SINCE
I’VE BEEN ON THE AIR, I’M
WATCHING MY OWN STAFF DISCUSS
THESE LETTERS WE’VE BEEN GETTING
FROM MICHIGAN, FROM MARYLAND,
WITH THE POSTAL SERVICE WARNING
THAT THE CHANGES THE PRESIDENT
IS ORDERING AREN’T GOING TO
WORK.
IT CAUSES DESPAIR AMONG MANY
PEOPLE, WHO DON’T FEEL THERE ARE
MANY WORKAROUNDS.
ARE THERE EXAMPLES FROM THE
INTERNATIONAL CONTEXT OR
PRINCIPLES TO APPLY, THAT SHOULD
GUIDE US PRACTICALLY IN TERMS OF
HOW WE SHORE THINGS LIKE UP
THAT, HOW WE COME TO THE DEFENSE
OF INSTITUTIONS THAT WE NEED IN
ORDER TO KEEP OUR DEMOCRACY
WORKING?
>> SO I THINK THERE ARE A FEW
THINGS.
I THINK WE RELY ON POLITICAL
LEADERS.
AT THE PRESENT WE’RE TALKING
ABOUT LACK OF CONFIDENCE IN
POLITICAL LEADERS AND OUR TOP
POLITICAL LEADER IN THE
PRESIDENT, SIGNALING THINGS THAT
WOULD UNDERMINE THE KEY ROLES
AND INSTITUTIONS.
I THINK AS CITIZENS, AS VOTERS,
AS CONTESTANTS IN ELECTIONS, AND
AS LOCAL COMMUNITIES, WE NEED TO
STAND UP FOR THESE INSTITUTIONS.
WE NEED TO BOLSTER THE ROLE OF
OUR APOLITICAL CIVIL SERVANTS OF
WHICH I USED TO BE ONE AND I
HAVE GREAT RESPECT FOR THOSE WHO
REMAIN IN GOVERNMENT DOING THIS
CRITICAL WORK.
WE NEED TO ENSURE THEY KNOW WE
ARE COUNTING ON THEM TO UPHOLD
THE VALUES OF OUR INSTITUTIONS.
WE NEED TO BE VIGILANT AS WE SEE
THINGS LIKE WHAT’S HAPPENING
RIGHT NOW, THAT WORRY US.
AND SO FOR ME AS AN INTELLIGENCE
ANALYST, IF I LOOK AT OUR
COUNTRY AS THOUGH I WAS LOOKING
AT ANOTHER COUNTRY, WHILE THE
INDICATORS OF AUTHORITARIANISM
HAVE BEEN PRESENT SINCE VERY
EARLIER ON, WE’RE TALKING ABOUT
DISPUTING FACTS, DELEGITIMIZING
OPPONENTS, DEMONIZING THE MEDIA,
DISRESPECTING INSTITUTIONS, JUST
TO NAME A FEW, THAT WAS THERE
EARLY.
BUT WHAT WE’RE SEEING NOW, AND
SINCE THE SPRING, TRULY IS
FLASHING RED WARNING LIGHTS.
AUTOCRATS AREN’T THE MOST
CREATIVE MEN AROUND.
THEY’RE ALL DRAWING FROM A
SIMILAR SHALLOW WELL OF
SELF-INTEREST, WHICH MEANS THEY
OFTEN RELY ON THE SAME TOOLS,
WHICH CAN BE QUITE PREDICTABLE.
BUT NOW, THE USE OF FORCES TO
DISRUPT PROTESTS, TO ACTIVELY
TRY TO UNDERMINE THE UPCOMING
ELECTION, BY FLOATING THE IDEA
OF DELAYING IT OR DEPRIVING THE
POST OFFICE OF THE RESOURCES IT
NEEDS, THESE ARE THE KIND OF
THINGS WE WOULD EXPECT TO SEE IN
AUTHORITARIAN CONTEXTS ABROAD.
AND THIS IS WHEN CIVIL SOCIETY
NEEDS TO STAND BEHIND THE
INSTITUTIONS AND ELEMENTS OF
GOVERNMENT AND ALSO TO
PEACEFULLY EXPRESS THEIR WILL
AND TO REJECT ANY IDEA THAT THE
RESULTS OF OUR ELECTION AND THE
SANCTITY OF THE ELECTION PROCESS
COULD BE CHALLENGED BY THE
PRESIDENT.
>> IT’S HELPFUL, I MEAN, SEEING
PARALLELS ABROAD IS SCARY, I
THINK, FOR US AS AMERICANS, BUT
IT DOES ALSO DIRECT US TO LOOK
FOR PARALLELS AND LOOK FOR HELP
ABROAD FOR ANTIAUTHORITARIAN
MOVEMENTS, ENDURING SOCIAL
MOVEMENTS AND TACTICS, LIKE YOU
DESCRIBED, THAT HAVE BEEN
SUCCESSFUL IN SEEING THESE GUYS
OUT.
KYLE MURPHY, FORMER SENIOR
ANALYST FOR THE DEFENSE
INTELLIGENCE AGENCY.
I KNOW A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE LEFT
THE GOVERNMENT IN ONE WAY OR
ANOTHER BECAUSE THEY FELT LIKE
THEY COULDN’T STOMACH THIS.
VERY FEW OF THEM HAVE
