
English: 
MICHAELA: Good evening everyone and welcome to
this first online event for the Brisbane
Writers Festival. My name is Michaela
Kalowski and it's my absolute pleasure to
be here tonight in conversation with
Sasha Sagan. I wanted to start tonight
by acknowledging the traditional owners
of the land on which I am tonight, who
are the Gadigal people of the Eora nation.
I'd also like to acknowledge the
traditional owners of the land where the
Brisbane Writers Festival home is - the
Jaggera and the Turrbul people - the
traditional custodians of that land. On
behalf of Brisbane Writers Festival, I
acknowledge and welcome Aboriginal and
Torres Strait people who are here with
us tonight and I pay my respects to
elders - past, present, and emerging.
Tonight - very quickly, I'll tell you about
how we'll run things - I'm going to speak
with Sasha Sagan for about 40 minutes
and then we're definitely leaving time
for you to ask your questions and you
can do that through the YouTube live
chat or if you're on Facebook, via

English: 
MICHAELA: Good evening everyone and welcome to
this first online event for the Brisbane
Writers Festival. My name is Michaela
Kalowski and it's my absolute pleasure to
be here tonight in conversation with
Sasha Sagan. I wanted to start tonight
by acknowledging the traditional owners
of the land on which I am tonight, who
are the Gadigal people of the Eora nation.
I'd also like to acknowledge the
traditional owners of the land where the
Brisbane Writers Festival home is - the
Jaggera and the Turrbul people - the
traditional custodians of that land. On
behalf of Brisbane Writers Festival, I
acknowledge and welcome Aboriginal and
Torres Strait people who are here with
us tonight and I pay my respects to
elders - past, present, and emerging.
Tonight - very quickly, I'll tell you about
how we'll run things - I'm going to speak
with Sasha Sagan for about 40 minutes
and then we're definitely leaving time
for you to ask your questions and you
can do that through the YouTube live
chat or if you're on Facebook, via

English: 
Facebook Messenger through the Brisbane
Writers Festival page. I also want to let
you know that tonight's interview is
being recorded so people can watch it at
a later stage. Before I start our
conversation, I need to tell you a bit
about Sasha Sagan and her background.
Sasha Sagan holds a degree in dramatic
literature from New York University and
has worked as a television producer,
filmmaker, editor, and writer and speaker
in New York, Boston, and London. Her essays
and interviews on death, history, and
ritual through a secular lens have
appeared in New York Magazine, O - The
Oprah Magazine, Literary Hub, Mashable, tThe
Violet Book and elsewhere. Her short
film, co-written and produced with
Kirsten Dunst, was screened at the
Tribeca Film Festival and was one of two
films chosen to close the 2010 Cannes Film
Festival's Critics Weeks Ceremony. She
regularly speaks on ways science can
form our celebrations and how we mark
the passage of time. For Small Creatures
Such As We is her first book. In this
case, it's also relevant to mention her
both her parents who are Ann Druyan - an

English: 
Facebook Messenger through the Brisbane
Writers Festival page. I also want to let
you know that tonight's interview is
being recorded so people can watch it at
a later stage. Before I start our
conversation, I need to tell you a bit
about Sasha Sagan and her background.
Sasha Sagan holds a degree in dramatic
literature from New York University and
has worked as a television producer,
filmmaker, editor, and writer and speaker
in New York, Boston, and London. Her essays
and interviews on death, history, and
ritual through a secular lens have
appeared in New York Magazine, O - The
Oprah Magazine, Literary Hub, Mashable, tThe
Violet Book and elsewhere. Her short
film, co-written and produced with
Kirsten Dunst, was screened at the
Tribeca Film Festival and was one of two
films chosen to close the 2010 Cannes Film
Festival's Critics Weeks Ceremony. She
regularly speaks on ways science can
form our celebrations and how we mark
the passage of time. For Small Creatures
Such As We is her first book. In this
case, it's also relevant to mention her
both her parents who are Ann Druyan - an

English: 
Emmy and Peabody award-winning American
writer, producer, and director
specializing in the communication of
science, and the late, great Carl Sagan.
Carl Sagan was an astronomer,
cosmologist, astrophysicist, and one of
the most powerful and effective
communicators
of science in the world. He did research
into the existence of extraterrestrial
life and he assembled the first physical
messages that humans ever sent into
space - the Pioneer Plaque and the Voyager
Golden Record.
They were universal messages that could
potentially be understood by any
intelligent life in the galaxy. Together,
Ann and Carl also made the hugely
successful television series, Cosmos, and
Carl Sagan died in 1996. Sasha Sagan has
written that incredibly rare book - it's
about the wonders of science but it's
also a deeply moving and personal book
about loss and about family heritage.
She's also given us a guide for how we
can make meaning and create our own

English: 
Emmy and Peabody award-winning American
writer, producer, and director
specializing in the communication of
science, and the late, great Carl Sagan.
Carl Sagan was an astronomer,
cosmologist, astrophysicist, and one of
the most powerful and effective
communicators
of science in the world. He did research
into the existence of extraterrestrial
life and he assembled the first physical
messages that humans ever sent into
space - the Pioneer Plaque and the Voyager
Golden Record.
They were universal messages that could
potentially be understood by any
intelligent life in the galaxy. Together,
Ann and Carl also made the hugely
successful television series, Cosmos, and
Carl Sagan died in 1996. Sasha Sagan has
written that incredibly rare book - it's
about the wonders of science but it's
also a deeply moving and personal book
about loss and about family heritage.
She's also given us a guide for how we
can make meaning and create our own

English: 
rituals to sit alongside spirituality or
in place of them. Tonight I'm going to speak
with her about family, about how their
scientific worldview informed her about
rituals, the mysteries of the universe,
grief, and why she finds randomness so
beautiful. Sasha, welcome to this Brisbane
Writers Festival event.
SASHA: Thank you so much - I'm absolutely delighted to be here - thank you.
MICHAELA: So, first and foremost, a funny way to
start a conversation with an author of
her own book, but in this instance people
will understand why. I need to start by
asking you about your parents. I wanted
you to explain a bit for people who
weren't familiar with Carl Sagan,what his work was,
and what his legacy is, and what you
learned from him, as well as what you learnt from your mum.
SASHA: My parents collaborated on dozens of books and essays,
and as you said, the television series, Cosmos, which my dad
hosted, and together I feel that they did
something so unique in terms of making

English: 
rituals to sit alongside spirituality or
in place of them. Tonight I'm going to speak
with her about family, about how their
scientific worldview informed her about
rituals, the mysteries of the universe,
grief, and why she finds randomness so
beautiful. Sasha, welcome to this Brisbane
Writers Festival event.
SASHA: Thank you so much - I'm absolutely delighted to be here - thank you.
MICHAELA: So, first and foremost, a funny way to
start a conversation with an author of
her own book, but in this instance people
will understand why. I need to start by
asking you about your parents. I wanted
you to explain a bit for people who
weren't familiar with Carl Sagan,what his work was,
and what his legacy is, and what you
learned from him, as well as what you learnt from your mum.
SASHA: My parents collaborated on dozens of books and essays,
and as you said, the television series, Cosmos, which my dad
hosted, and together I feel that they did
something so unique in terms of making

English: 
science accessible in a way that wasn't
just about the list of information that
you might have to memorise in school, but
about the stirring beauty of our place
in the universe as revealed by science.
And, you know, the passion and joy that
they found in the information that's
supported by evidence was contagious, and
growing up it was contagious, and I think
for millions of people around the world
it was contagious, and I was so lucky to
have that framework to see the world
from very early childhood and a huge
emphasis on curiosity and a deep love of
questioning and I think that really
formed my worldview and formed my
outlook and, you know, if you've read
their work or seen anything that they
created, I think that you'll get a real
idea of what it was like growing up and

English: 
science accessible in a way that wasn't
just about the list of information that
you might have to memorise in school, but
about the stirring beauty of our place
in the universe as revealed by science.
And, you know, the passion and joy that
they found in the information that's
supported by evidence was contagious, and
growing up it was contagious, and I think
for millions of people around the world
it was contagious, and I was so lucky to
have that framework to see the world
from very early childhood and a huge
emphasis on curiosity and a deep love of
questioning and I think that really
formed my worldview and formed my
outlook and, you know, if you've read
their work or seen anything that they
created, I think that you'll get a real
idea of what it was like growing up and

English: 
and just the idea that, you, know science
is a constantly changing thing. We're
constantly looking for new information,
looking for a deeper understanding,
looking for a little more glimpse of
truth of the reality of the world, the
world around us and it's so new in human
history - so much of the information we
have. But I think the way that we follow
the evidence and seek to understand is very ancient.
MICHAELA: I wanted to ask you as well,
whether you had any thoughts on what
shaped your father's belief in science
or views about science, because he was
the grandson and great-grandson of
Orthodox Jewish people and yet his own
life and direction was quite different.
Why do you think he felt so, so much
freedom to pursue the work he did, in the
way that he did?
SASHA: I think that one of the - and he talks about this in Cosmos and elsewhere - I think one of the

English: 
and just the idea that, you, know science
is a constantly changing thing. We're
constantly looking for new information,
looking for a deeper understanding,
looking for a little more glimpse of
truth of the reality of the world, the
world around us and it's so new in human
history - so much of the information we
have. But I think the way that we follow
the evidence and seek to understand is very ancient.
MICHAELA: I wanted to ask you as well,
whether you had any thoughts on what
shaped your father's belief in science
or views about science, because he was
the grandson and great-grandson of
Orthodox Jewish people and yet his own
life and direction was quite different.
Why do you think he felt so, so much
freedom to pursue the work he did, in the
way that he did?
SASHA: I think that one of the - and he talks about 
this in Cosmos and elsewhere - I think one of the

English: 
real turning points in his life -  you know, his
parents were immigrants and they were
not very well educated, but when he was a
little boy in Bensonhurst, in
Brooklyn in New York City,
he really he wanted to know what the
stars were and no one he knew, knew the
answer. No adult he knew, knew the answer.
But his mother knew where he
could get that information and she took
him to the public library,  which was like,
you know, a schlep - and it was--
But the idea was, you have a question - I
don't know the answer but I can help you
find it out. And I think for a very
small child, even in a in a community
that was not highly educated - that
encouragement, that moment, was like a
turning point that shaped the rest
of his life. And I think that, you know,

English: 
real turning points in his life -  you know, his
parents were immigrants and they were
not very well educated, but when he was a
little boy in Bensonhurst, in
Brooklyn in New York City,
he really he wanted to know what the
stars were and no one he knew, knew the
answer. No adult he knew, knew the answer.
But his mother knew where he
could get that information and she took
him to the public library,  which was like,
you know, a schlep - and it was--
But the idea was, you have a question - I
don't know the answer but I can help you
find it out. And I think for a very
small child, even in a in a community
that was not highly educated - that
encouragement, that moment, was like a
turning point that shaped the rest
of his life. And I think that, you know,

English: 
his parents valued learning, even if they
didn't have the resources or the
experience to be the source of the
knowledge that he was looking for and I
think that that that shaped his life
tremendously, and I think that's-- that's
something that, you know, all of us
parents of young children who have the,
you know, "Why, why, why, why, why?" phase can really relate to this idea of, "Okay, well,
I may not have all the answers but I'm
gonna help you find them", and that was
really something that-- that I think meant
the world to him and changed his life.
MICHAELA: There seems to be a bit of a wonderful heritage in your family of people
always questioning but also still
being embraced by their families when
they did so. Can you tell a little bit
about the story of your Uncle Harry? And--
SASHA: My grandfather - yes - my grandfather. So on my mother's side
her grandparents were Orthodox. They came from Eastern Europe - came to New York

English: 
his parents valued learning, even if they
didn't have the resources or the
experience to be the source of the
knowledge that he was looking for and I
think that that that shaped his life
tremendously, and I think that's-- that's
something that, you know, all of us
parents of young children who have the,
you know, "Why, why, why, why, why?" phase can 
really relate to this idea of, "Okay, well,
I may not have all the answers but I'm
gonna help you find them", and that was
really something that-- that I think meant
the world to him and changed his life.
MICHAELA: There seems to be a bit of a wonderful heritage in your family of people
always questioning but also still
being embraced by their families when
they did so. Can you tell a little bit
about the story of your Uncle Harry? And--
SASHA: My grandfather - yes - my grandfather. So on my mother's side
her grandparents were Orthodox. They came from Eastern Europe - came to New York

English: 
from Eastern Europe, and my grandfather
was born in New York and he grew up
and went off to college, which made him,
you know, skeptical and cosmopolita,n as
it can do. And the story that was passed
down to me that really-- I write about it
in the book and it really stayed with me,
was one day he came home, you know, riding
the train home, this New York City subway,
with just that knot in his stomach and he
gets to his parents house and he finds
his father davening - praying - and he waits
for him to finish, you know, that-- that
feeling when you have to have a
difficult conversation with someone. I can
just picture that-- that tension, and
he said "Dad, look, I've-- I've got to talk to
you about something.
I-- I'm not gonna go to shul - to temple -
anymore. I'm not going to keep kosher. I'm

English: 
from Eastern Europe, and my grandfather
was born in New York and he grew up
and went off to college, which made him,
you know, skeptical and cosmopolita,n as
it can do. And the story that was passed
down to me that really-- I write about it
in the book and it really stayed with me,
was one day he came home, you know, riding
the train home, this New York City subway,
with just that knot in his stomach and he
gets to his parents house and he finds
his father davening - praying - and he waits
for him to finish, you know, that-- that
feeling when you have to have a
difficult conversation with someone. I can
just picture that-- that tension, and
he said "Dad, look, I've-- I've got to talk to
you about something.
I-- I'm not gonna go to shul - to temple -
anymore. I'm not going to keep kosher. I'm

English: 
not gonna keep Shabbat, because I don't-- I
don't believe", and his father looked up
at him and said "The only sin would be to
pretend". And that-- that idea, that, you
know, if you don't-- if it feels like
going through the motions, don't do it.
You know, follow what works for you and--
and-- and the idea that there is no-- You
can't force it. You can't force belief.
You cannot force non-belief. If it's
not there, it's not there and that's
not a reason to have a rift between
father and son or between family
members. And, you know, after that, we-- my
grandfather still, the rest of his life - 
he lived to be 99 - saw himself as Jewish
and we had, you know, secular Passover
Seder and we had Hanukkah and we had

English: 
not gonna keep Shabbat, because I don't-- I
don't believe", and his father looked up
at him and said "The only sin would be to
pretend". And that-- that idea, that, you
know, if you don't-- if it feels like
going through the motions, don't do it.
You know, follow what works for you and--
and-- and the idea that there is no-- You
can't force it. You can't force belief.
You cannot force non-belief. If it's
not there, it's not there and that's
not a reason to have a rift between
father and son or between family
members. And, you know, after that, we-- my
grandfather still, the rest of his life -
he lived to be 99 - saw himself as Jewish
and we had, you know, secular Passover
Seder and we had Hanukkah and we had

English: 
these things in our family that were
their markers--
MICHAELA: [inaudible]
Yeah, but-- but it wasn't-- it wasn't in
the theistic context that he had been
brought up with but still carrying on
these traditions.
MICHAELA: It's a very powerful response to your son, when you've left Eastern Europe at that time and you're
in a new country, and in effect all you
have of your old identity is that
cultural identity - that ethnic identity -
it's a very-- it's a very powerful and
very loving response. It's a bit like
your parents who, you write in the book,
were always thrilled if they-- if you asked
them a question that they didn't know
the answer to, that was like the mark of
a really great question. I think that
tells us a lot about the household in
which your-- your mind and your heart were
shaped. You've also said that your
parents had the ability to make science
spiritual. What do you mean?
SASHA: Oh it's-- it's so interesting, because sometimes the
language-- you know, spiritual has such a
theistic, religious connotation and words

English: 
these things in our family that were
their markers--
MICHAELA: [inaudible]
Yeah, but-- but it wasn't-- it wasn't in
the theistic context that he had been
brought up with but still carrying on
these traditions.
MICHAELA: It's a very powerful response to your son, 
when you've left Eastern Europe at that time and you're
in a new country, and in effect all you
have of your old identity is that
cultural identity - that ethnic identity -
it's a very-- it's a very powerful and
very loving response. It's a bit like
your parents who, you write in the book,
were always thrilled if they-- if you asked
them a question that they didn't know
the answer to, that was like the mark of
a really great question. I think that
tells us a lot about the household in
which your-- your mind and your heart were
shaped. You've also said that your
parents had the ability to make science
spiritual. What do you mean?
SASHA: Oh it's-- it's so interesting, because sometimes the
language-- you know, spiritual has such a
theistic, religious connotation and words

English: 
like "holy" and "sacred" and even "magic"
comes from theistic root.
But it still is - I mean maybe it's just
the poverty of the English language - but
it's still-- those are still the words
that I think best describe that feeling
when, you know, a light opens up in your
mind. When you understand something new
and when you-- you-- you-- there's a new
discovery or a new image from deep space
and all of a sudden you have chills all
over your body and you glimpse that-- that
way in which we are a part of this vast
and enormous grandeur that we can barely,
barely, barely, begin to wrap our minds
around. I think that is spiritual in the
secular sense and I think that my
parents awe and joy and wonder was the
same, you know, in many ways that same
deep feeling that people often derive

English: 
like "holy" and "sacred" and even "magic"
comes from theistic root.
But it still is - I mean maybe it's just
the poverty of the English language - but
it's still-- those are still the words
that I think best describe that feeling
when, you know, a light opens up in your
mind. When you understand something new
and when you-- you-- you-- there's a new
discovery or a new image from deep space
and all of a sudden you have chills all
over your body and you glimpse that-- that
way in which we are a part of this vast
and enormous grandeur that we can barely,
barely, barely, begin to wrap our minds
around. I think that is spiritual in the
secular sense and I think that my
parents awe and joy and wonder was the
same, you know, in many ways that same
deep feeling that people often derive

English: 
from religion but they derived it from
the scientific method and all the
astonishing things that we have learned
just from following the evidence wherever it leads.
MICHAELA: I'm deliberately
asking these questions about your family
because I want people who are with us
tonight to get a sense of the, I suppose,
the heart as well as the-- the love of the
rational, and the love of the
evidence-based as well. But your book is
entitled, For Small Creatures Such As We,
but that's only half the sentence and
it's actually a sentence that was
written by your mother. Can you tell me-- because you say in
the book that that sentence is kind of a
family mantra. Can you finish that sentence for us?
SASHA: Yes, so the rest of the sentence - it's in the novel, Contact - is "For small creatures
such as we, the vastness is bearable only
through love" and I think that there's
something so powerful about that idea. If
we, you know, on the other side of the
kind of existential crisis of "Ah, we're tiny
in a little out-of-the-way planet in

English: 
from religion but they derived it from
the scientific method and all the
astonishing things that we have learned
just from following the evidence wherever it leads.
MICHAELA: I'm deliberately
asking these questions about your family
because I want people who are with us
tonight to get a sense of the, I suppose,
the heart as well as the-- the love of the
rational, and the love of the
evidence-based as well. But your book is
entitled, For Small Creatures Such As We,
but that's only half the sentence and
it's actually a sentence that was
written by your mother. Can you tell me-- because you say in
the book that that sentence is kind of a
family mantra. Can you finish that sentence for us?
SASHA: Yes, so the rest of the sentence - 
it's in the novel, Contact - is "For small creatures
such as we, the vastness is bearable only
through love" and I think that there's
something so powerful about that idea. If
we, you know, on the other side of the
kind of existential crisis of "Ah, we're tiny
in a little out-of-the-way planet in

English: 
this enormous vast universe and we are
here for the blink of an eye and maybe
there's nothing else" - once you get
through that very difficult realisation
and face it, it's like, well then what do
we have?
And I think that the answer is one
another, and we're here on this little
lifeboat floating through the cosmos
together and I think that if we don't--  we
don't know, you know, if there's anything
else. If you have deep faith, you know,
maybe that doesn't seem true to you, but
for those of us who reserved belief
without evidence, if this is it then we
are in it together and I think the more
that we can derive fulfillment from this
moment, I think the better off we are.
MICHAELA: You've spoken powerfully about the way that your parents were raised and
the kinds of things that shake their
worldview but can you talk a little bit
about your own-- your own way of using
science as a lens through which to both

English: 
this enormous vast universe and we are
here for the blink of an eye and maybe
there's nothing else" - once you get
through that very difficult realisation
and face it, it's like, well then what do
we have?
And I think that the answer is one
another, and we're here on this little
lifeboat floating through the cosmos
together and I think that if we don't--  we
don't know, you know, if there's anything
else. If you have deep faith, you know,
maybe that doesn't seem true to you, but
for those of us who reserved belief
without evidence, if this is it then we
are in it together and I think the more
that we can derive fulfillment from this
moment, I think the better off we are.
MICHAELA: You've spoken powerfully about 
the way that your parents were raised and
the kinds of things that shake their
worldview but can you talk a little bit
about your own-- your own way of using
science as a lens through which to both

English: 
see the world and understand the world
because it's very much a part of this book.
SASHA: Yes, I mean for me, you know, I think that science is the pathway to
understanding and it's the way to answer
questions and there's--  it's the way to
look at information to try to figure out
what's real and what's not,
which is something that is, you know - on a
small scale and a large scale - something
that the human species has to reckon
with. But I think that one of the things
that I really longed for and-- and that
science, I thought, doesn't provide is the
rituals and celebrations and--  and
framework for grieving - these moments in
life that are part of our existence and
all the changes that we experience the
changing of the seasons, the
biological change over a human life and

English: 
see the world and understand the world
because it's very much a part of this book.
SASHA: Yes, I mean for me, you know, 
I think that science is the pathway to
understanding and it's the way to answer
questions and there's--  it's the way to
look at information to try to figure out
what's real and what's not,
which is something that is, you know - on a
small scale and a large scale - something
that the human species has to reckon
with. But I think that one of the things
that I really longed for and-- and that
science, I thought, doesn't provide is the
rituals and celebrations and--  and
framework for grieving - these moments in
life that are part of our existence and
all the changes that we experience the
changing of the seasons, the
biological change over a human life and

English: 
and so, you know, I lean on my Jewish
background for a lot of those things but
as I began learning about this - and of
course I lost my dad when I was 14 and
so I had to come to terms with how to
face mortality and-- and deal with it, and
grieve at, you know, at a young age  - and I think that as I began researching
not just the funerary
and, like, mourning rituals around the
world, but the celebrations and the
seasonal change. You know, the moment
that we celebrate the spring equinox and
the winter solstice - so many of the
holidays that I thought were purely
religious or purely cultural had this
kernel of a scientific event underneath
it. And, you know, coming-of-age ceremonies -
that's the most clear version of that,
and I started to think, you know, if all
of these events that, you know,
independently, societies all over the

English: 
and so, you know, I lean on my Jewish
background for a lot of those things but
as I began learning about this - and of
course I lost my dad when I was 14 and
so I had to come to terms with how to
face mortality and-- and deal with it, and
grieve at, you know, at a young age  - and I think that as I began researching
not just the funerary
and, like, mourning rituals around the
world, but the celebrations and the
seasonal change. You know, the moment
that we celebrate the spring equinox and
the winter solstice - so many of the
holidays that I thought were purely
religious or purely cultural had this
kernel of a scientific event underneath
it. And, you know, coming-of-age ceremonies -
that's the most clear version of that,
and I started to think, you know, if all
of these events that, you know,
independently, societies all over the

English: 
world and throughout time have had these
moments, you know, whether it's, like,
quinceanera, Bar Mitzvah, sweet 16 or, you
know, all these rites of passage that you--
you can find anywhere in the world - that
that's really about a biological change,
and that's really about hormones and the
ability to reproduce, and all these
things that we don't think of as part of
a, you know, religious or cultural
tradition - there's this kernel of science
underneath, and so that combination of
having a desire and a love for
celebrations and also, you know, this lens
of well, "What's really going on here and
and what's the root of this?", sort of led
me to the research that eventually
became the book.
MICHAELA: You write-- you actually quote your father in your 
book when he wrote in Pale Blue Dot, "Science
demands a tolerance for ambiguity", and it
struck me because when we think about

English: 
world and throughout time have had these
moments, you know, whether it's, like,
quinceanera, Bar Mitzvah, sweet 16 or, you
know, all these rites of passage that you--
you can find anywhere in the world - that
that's really about a biological change,
and that's really about hormones and the
ability to reproduce, and all these
things that we don't think of as part of
a, you know, religious or cultural
tradition - there's this kernel of science
underneath, and so that combination of
having a desire and a love for
celebrations and also, you know, this lens
of well, "What's really going on here and
and what's the root of this?", sort of led
me to the research that eventually
became the book.
MICHAELA: You write-- you actually quote your father in your book when he wrote in Pale Blue Dot, "Science
demands a tolerance for ambiguity", and it
struck me because when we think about

English: 
science, you know, the phrase "cold, hard
facts" often comes to mind, and I was
thinking about that in relation to the
fact that you--  you talk about your love
of science, your way of using scientific
ideas to make sense of the world, to see
the world, but also your yearning for
ritual and the way that you still find
deep meaning in the mysteries of
the universe, but we don't tend to think
of science as being ambiguous. Do you
think science has kind of like an
identity problem? Do we need to do we
need to rebrand it somehow, to give it a different name?
SASHA: Yes! It's so true. I mean, that idea of cold hard facts - it's so unpleasant, you know, it's-- it's not
welcoming. It's not welcoming, but I think that when
we think about-- I mean, the example I love
to give the most is like, you know, if you
said to kids, instead of being like "Here
is this homework about alleles and
the double helix", if you said "There is a secret code in your

English: 
science, you know, the phrase "cold, hard
facts" often comes to mind, and I was
thinking about that in relation to the
fact that you--  you talk about your love
of science, your way of using scientific
ideas to make sense of the world, to see
the world, but also your yearning for
ritual and the way that you still find
deep meaning in the mysteries of
the universe, but we don't tend to think
of science as being ambiguous. Do you
think science has kind of like an
identity problem? Do we need to do we
need to rebrand it somehow, to give it a different name?
SASHA: Yes! It's so true. I mean, that idea of cold hard facts - it's so unpleasant, you know, it's-- it's not
welcoming. It's not welcoming, but I think that when
we think about-- I mean, the example I love
to give the most is like, you know, if you
said to kids, instead of being like "Here
is this homework about alleles and
the double helix", if you said "There is a secret code in your

English: 
blood that connects you to your
ancestors to people that you never knew
and whether you believe in it or not
it's real and it can tell you
information about yourself that you
didn't know and about your history and
where your ancestors were, when. It can
solve mysteries, you know, thousands of
years old mysteries, like what would
happen to Tutankhamen, you know, these
things that we can just discover and
understand and it's hidden just beneath
the surface, but it's the answer to so
many of our deepest questions" - if we
could, sort of, present DNA that way,
instead of in a very like, you know - I
don't know - true crime, unpleasant, you
know, way. I think that there's so many
elements of nature that if we've turned
the lens a little bit and find the part
of it that is just the astonishing
beauty of it and then, you know, start
there, I think we can sort of have
changed the way we look at things,

English: 
blood that connects you to your
ancestors to people that you never knew
and whether you believe in it or not
it's real and it can tell you
information about yourself that you
didn't know and about your history and
where your ancestors were, when. It can
solve mysteries, you know, thousands of
years old mysteries, like what would
happen to Tutankhamen, you know, these
things that we can just discover and
understand and it's hidden just beneath
the surface, but it's the answer to so
many of our deepest questions" - if we
could, sort of, present DNA that way,
instead of in a very like, you know - I
don't know - true crime, unpleasant, you
know, way. I think that there's so many
elements of nature that if we've turned
the lens a little bit and find the part
of it that is just the astonishing
beauty of it and then, you know, start
there, I think we can sort of have
changed the way we look at things,

English: 
because it can be very hard when you
think of it as just rote memorization
and as something that's stagnant,
and I think that's one of the things I
love most about science is the idea that
you-- you know-- the constant questioning
and the constant idea that what we know
today is just the best we can do right
now. But we will understand more later
and we can only get there by questioning
ourselves, questioning the status quo,
questioning what we've believed, and
testing things outside of what we want
to be true or what we thought were true
and actually looking at the evidence and
I think there's so much beauty-- You know,
there's so many things that if you learn
it from early childhood,
it doesn't seem-- You forget how amazing
it is. I mean even just that plants grow
out of the earth with, you know, the light of the nearest
star and water and the nutrients in the
soil and we consume them and we grow and

English: 
because it can be very hard when you
think of it as just rote memorization
and as something that's stagnant,
and I think that's one of the things I
love most about science is the idea that
you-- you know-- the constant questioning
and the constant idea that what we know
today is just the best we can do right
now. But we will understand more later
and we can only get there by questioning
ourselves, questioning the status quo,
questioning what we've believed, and
testing things outside of what we want
to be true or what we thought were true
and actually looking at the evidence and
I think there's so much beauty-- You know,
there's so many things that if you learn
it from early childhood,
it doesn't seem-- You forget how amazing
it is. I mean even just that plants grow
out of the earth with, you know, the light of the nearest
star and water and the nutrients in the
soil and we consume them and we grow and

English: 
live. If you-- if you told that like it was
a fairytale, you know, it sounds
astonishing and I think there's so much
in nature and in science that can be
sort of described in a different way but
in terms of tolerating ambiguity I think
we have this deep need to answer our
questions. It's so uncomfortable - we all
have this feeling of the discomfort of
not knowing, and, you know, the idea that
an answer will come eventually, or it
won't, but right now we don't know - and
the urge to put an answer into those
deep questions or even small questions -
"What's gonna happen tomorrow?" - you know, those kind of things. It's-- it's really
difficult to sit with that feeling of,
"Well we just don't know yet", and so I
think that that's something that science
provides that's really important is the
idea that until we have evidence we just
we don't have an answer and I think the

English: 
live. If you-- if you told that like it was
a fairytale, you know, it sounds
astonishing and I think there's so much
in nature and in science that can be
sort of described in a different way but
in terms of tolerating ambiguity I think
we have this deep need to answer our
questions. It's so uncomfortable - we all
have this feeling of the discomfort of
not knowing, and, you know, the idea that
an answer will come eventually, or it
won't, but right now we don't know - and
the urge to put an answer into those
deep questions or even small questions -
"What's gonna happen tomorrow?" - you know, those 
kind of things. It's-- it's really
difficult to sit with that feeling of,
"Well we just don't know yet", and so I
think that that's something that science
provides that's really important is the
idea that until we have evidence we just
we don't have an answer and I think the

English: 
more we get used to that feeling I think
the better-- the better off we are.
MICHAELA: There seems to be this big, I guess, a shared-- 
a shared sense of the mystery of the
universe both in religion and in science
maybe just they have different ways of
grappling with it and you write about
this all throughout your book because as
you've said before, you weren't raised--
you were raised more or less in a
secular way, with with some kind of, I
guess, traditions of Jewish culture and
with your husband now traditions of his
own Christian and Catholic culture as
well, so lots of things that are sort of
interwoven for you in your new family.
But I wonder if you can explain a bit
about something you also write about in
the book, which is that the way that in
science things can be provable and
somehow making things provable makes
them somehow less special. Why are we
humans like that? Why do we think if we
can define something, we'll prove it to
ourselves it's somehow less magical?
SASHA: It's such a good question and I-- I don't--

English: 
more we get used to that feeling I think
the better-- the better off we are.
MICHAELA: There seems to be this big, I guess, a shared-- a shared sense of the mystery of the
universe both in religion and in science
maybe just they have different ways of
grappling with it and you write about
this all throughout your book because as
you've said before, you weren't raised--
you were raised more or less in a
secular way, with with some kind of, I
guess, traditions of Jewish culture and
with your husband now traditions of his
own Christian and Catholic culture as
well, so lots of things that are sort of
interwoven for you in your new family.
But I wonder if you can explain a bit
about something you also write about in
the book, which is that the way that in
science things can be provable and
somehow making things provable makes
them somehow less special. Why are we
humans like that? Why do we think if we
can define something, we'll prove it to
ourselves it's somehow less magical?
SASHA: It's such a good question and I-- I don't--

English: 
You see it so often when people say that
they prefer the kind of
mystery of something and they don't
want to know the answer, and like, I think
you know, to me understanding something
really deeply and studying it is a way
of honoring it and celebrating it and
it's like when you're in love with
someone and you want to know everything
about them every little detail. To me,
that is better than just watching them from 
afar and living in your own fantasy.
MICHAELA: [inaudible]
SASHA: Yeah exactly, and projecting
your own wishes onto them. First is
saying "Who is this person really? I want
to know them very deeply", and I think
that there's something there that-- that
connects to, you know, how we-- how we
approach the deep profound questions of
life, you know. Anything from, you know,

English: 
You see it so often when people say that
they prefer the kind of
mystery of something and they don't
want to know the answer, and like, I think
you know, to me understanding something
really deeply and studying it is a way
of honoring it and celebrating it and
it's like when you're in love with
someone and you want to know everything
about them every little detail. To me,
that is better than just watching them from
afar and living in your own fantasy.
MICHAELA: [inaudible]
SASHA: Yeah exactly, and projecting
your own wishes onto them. First is
saying "Who is this person really? I want
to know them very deeply", and I think
that there's something there that-- that
connects to, you know, how we-- how we
approach the deep profound questions of
life, you know. Anything from, you know,

English: 
what happens after we die, to you know--
or "Is there life anywhere else in the
universe?" and I think that following the
evidence to find the information that we
can glean and leaving the space open
until we have evidence is more stirring
and meaningful and powerful and
beautiful than saying, "I know this, I
think I want this to be true, and so I'm
filling in this answer here". But to me
yeah I mean you see it I've said this
before do you see it like with
meteorologists on TV when there's like a
big storm coming. These are people who
are scientists who study weather and
they love it and the excitement that
they feel about, you know, the weather
systems coming in and how it works is
like ecstatic joy, you know. Standing
outside getting the wind blown on them

English: 
what happens after we die, to you know--
or "Is there life anywhere else in the
universe?" and I think that following the
evidence to find the information that we
can glean and leaving the space open
until we have evidence is more stirring
and meaningful and powerful and
beautiful than saying, "I know this, I
think I want this to be true, and so I'm
filling in this answer here". But to me
yeah I mean you see it I've said this
before do you see it like with
meteorologists on TV when there's like a
big storm coming. These are people who
are scientists who study weather and
they love it and the excitement that
they feel about, you know, the weather
systems coming in and how it works is
like ecstatic joy, you know. Standing
outside getting the wind blown on them

English: 
or whatever it is, and I think that you--
that there is that in science where when
you understand something deeply-- You know, 
for many millennia we thought the
weather, you know, big weather events were messages.
MICHAELA: ...were sent from God.
SASHA: Right, exactly, and I think that,
you know, now that we understand a little 
more how things work, there's still immense beauty and awe
that can be derived again from this other 
element of nature, among many.
MICHAELA: Throughout the chapters in the
book, which are divided into things
like, you know, weddings, sex,
coming of age, death - you know, autumn,
summer, winter - you also look at lots of
religious traditions and you look at
lots of ways that different religions
mark seasons - times of the year - and all
those big moments in our lives - births, coming of age, 
and marriages, and death.
But I wonder, having heard you just
say what you've said, why do we still

English: 
or whatever it is, and I think that you-- 
that there is that in science where when
you understand something deeply-- You know, for many millennia we thought the
weather, you know, big weather events were messages.  
MICHAELA: ...were sent from God.
SASHA: Right, exactly, and I think that,
you know, now that we understand a little  more how things work, there's still immense beauty and awe
that can be derived again from this other element of nature, among many.
MICHAELA: Throughout the chapters in the 
book, which are divided into things
like, you know, weddings, sex,
coming of age, death - you know, autumn,
summer, winter - you also look at lots of
religious traditions and you look at
lots of ways that different religions
mark seasons - times of the year - and all
those big moments in our lives - births, coming of age, and marriages, and death.
But I wonder, having heard you just
say what you've said, why do we still

English: 
have this schism between-- this massive
schism between science and religion,
given the kind of research that you've
been doing? What do you put that down to,
now also having grown up in the
household you grew up in?
SASHA:  I, you know-- I think it's very new, really, in the history of humans - in the history of our
species. I think that for most of history,
the more deeply you understood the
migration patterns, the weather, the
seasons, reproduction - the more deeply you
understood your gods or God and I think
it's really only when we had enough
information to say, "Well, this thing that
we've said for a few hundred years, or a
few thousand years - now we have this
information". I mean, my mother calls it
Post-Copernican Stress Disorder. Like,
this idea of, like, "Oh, we're not the
center of the universe and actually we
were revolving around the Sun and the
Sun is like a little distant
out-of-the-way star and I--"
MICHAELA: She needs to trademark that. She does need to trademark that.

English: 
have this schism between-- this massive
schism between science and religion,
given the kind of research that you've
been doing? What do you put that down to,
now also having grown up in the
household you grew up in?
SASHA:  I, you know-- I think it's very new, really, in the history of humans - in the history of our
species. I think that for most of history,
the more deeply you understood the
migration patterns, the weather, the
seasons, reproduction - the more deeply you
understood your gods or God and I think
it's really only when we had enough
information to say, "Well, this thing that
we've said for a few hundred years, or a
few thousand years - now we have this
information". I mean, my mother calls it
Post-Copernican Stress Disorder. Like,
this idea of, like, "Oh, we're not the
center of the universe and actually we
were revolving around the Sun and the
Sun is like a little distant
out-of-the-way star and I--"
MICHAELA: She needs to trademark that. 
She does need to trademark that.

English: 
SASHA: Absolutely, right! And maybe there
could be like, some kind of therapy to
help people get through it. But, you know,
I think it's-- Yeah, I think it's this idea
of facing the idea that we are not the
centre of the universe. Literally, we're
not the centre of the universe and
metaphorically, we're not the centre of ther
universe, and we're part of - even on this
planet - we are part of an ecosystem of
other animals and plants and 
life forms and we--
It's not just made for us and I think
that that is really-- can be quite
damaging to our egos. And I think it's
really hard, you know, if you-- especially
if that gives you a sense of esteem and
there's this video of my dad that I
recently saw again, you know, from probably thirty years ago where he's saying, you know,
"I wish that we could derive our
self-esteem as a species, not from being

English: 
SASHA: Absolutely, right! And maybe there
could be like, some kind of therapy to
help people get through it. But, you know,
I think it's-- Yeah, I think it's this idea
of facing the idea that we are not the
centre of the universe. Literally, we're
not the centre of the universe and
metaphorically, we're not the centre of ther
universe, and we're part of - even on this
planet - we are part of an ecosystem of
other animals and plants and
life forms and we--
It's not just made for us and I think
that that is really-- can be quite
damaging to our egos. And I think it's
really hard, you know, if you-- especially
if that gives you a sense of esteem and
there's this video of my dad that I
recently saw again, you know, from probably thirty years 
ago where he's saying, you know,
"I wish that we could derive our
self-esteem as a species, not from being

English: 
born special, but from things that we
actually do and things that we can--
Ways that we can make the world more fair and
more equal and more just" and, that that
would be something that we can derive
our sense of importance from, rather than
just being born special as human
beings.
MICHAELA: I want to talk a bit about rituals and specifics.
All throughout
the book, as we've said, you write about
all these amazing different rituals
celebrated by different cultures around
the world - the research in the book is
extraordinary. And I didn't realize - I was
embarrassed - by how little I understood
about how much rituals were connected to
nature, including things like days of the
week or why there are 24 hours in the
day. It was mind-blowing. But I wanted to ask 
if you could define what a ritual is, and
what we use them for. Why do we need them?
SASHA: So, I think that, you know-- I think really
the reason we need them is to process
change. I think that there is constant

English: 
born special, but from things that we
actually do and things that we can--
Ways that we can make the world more fair and
more equal and more just" and, that that
would be something that we can derive
our sense of importance from, rather than
just being born special as human
beings.
MICHAELA: I want to talk a bit about rituals and specifics.
All throughout
the book, as we've said, you write about
all these amazing different rituals
celebrated by different cultures around
the world - the research in the book is
extraordinary. And I didn't realize - I was
embarrassed - by how little I understood
about how much rituals were connected to
nature, including things like days of the
week or why there are 24 hours in the
day. It was mind-blowing. But I wanted to ask
if you could define what a ritual is, and
what we use them for. Why do we need them?
SASHA: So, I think that, you know-- I think really
the reason we need them is to process
change. I think that there is constant

English: 
change over the course of our lives and
it's very difficult to wrap our minds
around it, and I think a ritual is
something we do that is meaningful and
that, you know, we could do another way.
You know, there are very small rituals
and there are very large ones that, you
know, thousands of people do together or
millions around the world, and then there
are the little private things that you do -
maybe you take a specific way home and
you think, "Okay, when I go over this
bridge, I'm going to leave everything
that-- All the stress of the office at
home and start my evening". And that little portal, I think,
is so much of what ritual is about.
The idea that you know in-- in-- in the
technical sense, like, the idea of a rite
of passage is this idea of this
threshold, like a wedding, where you start, you know, unmarried. 
You go through the
ritual. You go through this doorway, and
at the end you are different. You're
together. And I think that rituals -
that's what it's really about. It's going

English: 
change over the course of our lives and
it's very difficult to wrap our minds
around it, and I think a ritual is
something we do that is meaningful and
that, you know, we could do another way.
You know, there are very small rituals
and there are very large ones that, you
know, thousands of people do together or
millions around the world, and then there
are the little private things that you do -
maybe you take a specific way home and
you think, "Okay, when I go over this
bridge, I'm going to leave everything
that-- All the stress of the office at
home and start my evening". And that little portal, I think,
is so much of what ritual is about.
The idea that you know in-- in-- in the
technical sense, like, the idea of a rite
of passage is this idea of this
threshold, like a wedding, where you start, you know, unmarried. You go through the
ritual. You go through this doorway, and
at the end you are different. You're
together. And I think that rituals - 
that's what it's really about. It's going

English: 
through a little portal and saying, "Okay,
my workday is done", or "My day is starting"
or "My year is starting" or, you know,
whatever it is that changes in your mind.
And then I think the other element is,
you know, we have this-- It's a way of
wrapping our mind around time passing
and, you know, a birthday, right - we get one
day older every day, but a birthday lets
us think, "Oh my goodness,
a whole year has passed since this. I'm
now this. I-- You know, and actually
like, look at it, because it's impossible
to feel that every second of every day.
And we have to look at it from-- Take a
step back and think, "Oh this is-- This is
what's happened" and I think that, you
know, there is just so much change we
experience over the course of our lives,
and it's very difficult for us to wrap
our minds around. And I think we've
invented these little passageways from

English: 
through a little portal and saying, "Okay,
my workday is done", or "My day is starting"
or "My year is starting" or, you know,
whatever it is that changes in your mind.
And then I think the other element is,
you know, we have this-- It's a way of
wrapping our mind around time passing
and, you know, a birthday, right - we get one
day older every day, but a birthday lets
us think, "Oh my goodness,
a whole year has passed since this. I'm
now this. I-- You know, and actually
like, look at it, because it's impossible
to feel that every second of every day.
And we have to look at it from-- Take a
step back and think, "Oh this is-- This is
what's happened" and I think that, you
know, there is just so much change we
experience over the course of our lives,
and it's very difficult for us to wrap
our minds around. And I think we've
invented these little passageways from

English: 
one kind of perspective to another around the
world, because we need them emotionally
MICHAELA: What were some of the rituals
that you came across in your research
that really blew your mind?
SASHA: Oh, I really love the land diving
in Vanuatu and, like--
Especially as a coming-of-age ritual,
because to me, the idea of taking a giant
leap in front of your community is-- Is
such-- That's-- That is the almost
performance-art version of what it's
like to grow up, and what it's like to do
any of the sort of performative things
that we do. I mean, right-- Like,
anything you do that's a coming-of-age
ceremony, it's not like "Okay, you're a
kid, and then you do this thing and now
you're an adult" but it's a way of saying
"You're in this change and it happens for different people at different times -
and, you know, gradually in many cases -
but this is the transition that we're going
through and, you know, you're gonna have

English: 
one kind of perspective to another around the 
world, because we need them emotionally
MICHAELA: What were some of the rituals
that you came across in your research
that really blew your mind?
SASHA: Oh, I really love the land diving 
in Vanuatu and, like--
Especially as a coming-of-age ritual,
because to me, the idea of taking a giant
leap in front of your community is-- Is
such-- That's-- That is the almost
performance-art version of what it's
like to grow up, and what it's like to do
any of the sort of performative things
that we do. I mean, right-- Like,
anything you do that's a coming-of-age
ceremony, it's not like "Okay, you're a
kid, and then you do this thing and now
you're an adult" but it's a way of saying
"You're in this change and it happens for different people at different times -
and, you know, gradually in many cases -
but this is the transition that we're going
through and, you know, you're gonna have

English: 
to let some of the stuff of childhood go,
but you're gonna get this thrill of all
the things you get to do as a grownup
that are really fun. And I think that--
That that sort of stuff really, you know,
when-- When the ritual really clearly
represents the emotional or biological
event - I find that so beautiful and
stirring and meaning-- Excuse me--
meaningful.
MICHAELA: And we should just clarify that land diving
is exactly what it sounds like.
SASHA: Yes.
MICHAELA: It's men climbing a very, very tall tree
with vines. It's basically bungy jumping,
but you're not doing it with any kind of elastic cord, 
and you're not doing it over water. (Yes.)
So, if you get it wrong, the consequences are very serious.
SASHA: But over thousands of years in Vanuatu,
they have gotten really good at knowing
exactly what time of year the vine is
the most pliable. So, as long as it's

English: 
to let some of the stuff of childhood go,
but you're gonna get this thrill of all
the things you get to do as a grownup
that are really fun. And I think that--
That that sort of stuff really, you know,
when-- When the ritual really clearly
represents the emotional or biological
event, I find that so beautiful and
stirring and meaning-- Excuse me--
meaningful.
MICHAELA: And we should just clarify that land diving
 is exactly what it sounds like.
SASHA: Yes.
MICHAELA: It's basically men climbing a very, very tall
tree with vines. It's basically bungy jumping,
but you're not doing it with any kind of elastic cord, and you're not doing it over water.
So, if you get it wrong, the consequences are very serious.
SASHA: But over a thousands of years in Vanuatu,
they have gotten really good at knowing
exactly what time of year the vine is
the most pliable. So, as long as it's

English: 
within that timeframe, it's-- There
are very - as I understand it - there
are very few injuries. But it's-- Yes, it's
jumping off into the unknown.
MICHAELA: You say in the book that old rituals aren't
intrinsically better than new ones. Old
ones have often been used to exclude
people, to discriminate - and just because
we always did something one way doesn't
mean we have to keep doing it. How do we
turn a practice, then, into a ritual?
SASHA: Well, it's so-- I mean that's the thing, is I
think people feel this-- This pressure to
not be the first to break the long chain. But--
MICHAELA: And there was a lot of pressure in your own family, as well.
SASHA: Yes, absolutely. And I think that--
I think that what I keep coming back
to, is no matter what you're doing, you're
not doing it the same way that your
ancestors were doing it a few thousand
years ago and in order - like a life form, or a species - in order to
survive, I think traditions have to mutate.

English: 
within that timeframe, it's-- There
are very - as I understand it - there
are very few injuries. But it's-- Yes, it's
jumping off into the unknown.
MICHAELA: You say in the book that old rituals aren't
intrinsically better than new ones. Old
ones have often been used to exclude
people, to discriminate - and just because
we always did something one way doesn't
mean we have to keep doing it. How do we
turn a practice, then, into a ritual?
SASHA: Well, it's so-- I mean that's the thing, is I
think people feel this-- This pressure to
not be the first to break the long chain. But--
MICHAELA: And there was a lot of pressure in your own family, as well.
SASHA: Yes, absolutely. And I think that--
I think that what I keep coming back
to, is no matter what you're doing, you're
not doing it the same way that your
ancestors were doing it a few thousand
years ago and in order - like a life form - 
in order for a species-- Like, in order to
survive
I think traditions have to mutate and

English: 
you have to just
but you can and I think that often you
know they're built atop other things
that other people were doing with
totally different theological or
mythological worldviews and I think that
in terms of what you create for yourself
and inventing something new I mean it's
hard sometimes to start a new tradition
especially if it involves other people
you know it can feel like kind of
contrived but I think there's something
really you know it requires trial and
error for sure at night but I think that
there's something really meaningful
about looking to do the things that
actually reflect what you believe and
you know or just what you value you know
whether it's and there are a lot of
things that we do that maybe we don't
see as rituals but if you get together
you know with your best friends for a
general party once a month and you know
or you um you know every weekend you and
your family take go somewhere special
and do you know have a picnic or

English: 
And you have to just take what 
you can and I think that often, you know,
they're built atop other things
that other people were doing with
totally different theological or
mythological worldviews and I think that
in terms of what you create for yourself
and inventing something new-- I mean, it's
hard sometimes to start a new tradition,
especially if it involves other people,
you know, it can feel like, kind of
contrived. But I think there's something
really-- You know, it requires trial and
error for sure and I-- But I think that
there's something really meaningful
about looking to do the things that
actually reflect what you believe and,
you know-- Or just what you value, you know.
Whether it's-- And there are a lot of
things that we do that maybe we don't
see as rituals but if you get together,
you know, with your best friends for a
general party once a month and, you know
or you-- Every weekend you and
your family take-- Go somewhere special
and, you know, have a picnic or

English: 
something - those things are rituals. We
just-- It's very hard to see them that way
and even now - and especially under
quarantine and lockdown, you know - I think
so many people are, you know, whether it's
like meditation from an app, or like,
YouTube yoga classes - these are things
that come from a religious tradition but
have taken on a secular life of their
own and they are still rituals if you
think, "Okay, every night before bed, I
have to meditate" - that is a ritual and
I think where-- where the line is between
something you do, you know, as a habit and
a ritual is the question of well is it
meaningful to you and is it something
that that you have a little story behind
why this is important to you and what
this does for you emotionally.
MICHAELA: There are also rituals you talk about in
the book though - they're not only
frameworks to make us feel good. They're

English: 
something those things are rituals we
just it's very hard to see them that way
and even now and especially under
quarantine and lockdown you know I think
so many people are you know whether it's
like meditation from a nap or like
YouTube yoga classes these are things
that come from a religious tradition but
have taken on a secular life of their
own and they are still rituals if you
think okay every night before that I
have to meditate um that is a ritual and
I think we're where the line is between
something you do you know as a habit and
a ritual is the question of well is it
meaningful to you and is it something
that that you have a little story behind
why this is important to you and what
this does for you emotionally
there are also rituals you talk about in
the book though they're not only
frameworks to make us feel good they're

English: 
not only prep there are also frameworks
to help us remember there are things
that we're not supposed to do can you
talk about some of those yeah I mean you
know there's there
so many taboos in societies and you know
things that are forbidden and some of
them may have real there may be a really
helpful roots and some dietary
restrictions there's some evidence to
suggest that those were for safety
reasons and things like that and then
you know sexual taboos right they go
from being really unfair and
discriminatory to like you know okay
well you know we have to arrange
ourselves somehow I'm like not just you
know that's all the time all day long
you know I'm like no I think that there
is you know that line of like well is

English: 
not all only frameworks. There are also 
frameworks to help us remember there are things
that we're not supposed to do. Can you
talk about some of those? 
SASHA: Yeah, I mean, you know, there's-- there are
so many taboos in societies and, you know,
things that are forbidden and some of
them may have real-- There may be really
helpful roots and some dietary
restrictions - there's some evidence to
suggest that those were for safety
reasons and things like that. And then,
you know, sexual taboos, right? They go
from being really unfair and
discriminatory to, like, you know-- okay
well, you know, we have to arrange
ourselves somehow and, like, not just, you know-- 
MICHAELA: That's all the time.
SASHA: All day long.
MICHAELA:...or we'd get nothing done!
[inaudible]
I think that there's, you know, that line of, like, well

English: 
is this something that was invented? Is
it-- (a) is it an anachronistic? Is it
something that we just don't need anymore?
Is it something that was invented to
exclude? Is it something that was
invented out of fear - of fear that we
don't need to have anymore? Or is this
something that serves us in some way and
I think that questioning of ourselves,
and questioning of the status quo, and
questioning of, you know, the things that
we were taught and actually looking at
it with fresh eyes I think that that's
so crucial in-- in any system of the way
humans organize themselves and I think
that's something that you can really see
as a value from science - is this idea of
not just taking things for granted
because they were told to you from a
position of authority.
MICHAELA: I wonder if you
can reflect - from your own experience and
from the research she did in the book as
well - about what happens when-- You

English: 
this something that was invented the is
it a is it an anachronistic is it
something that we just don't need
anymore
is it something that was invented to
exclude is it something that was
invented out of fear of fear that we
don't need to have anymore or is this
something that serves us in some way and
they think that questioning of ourselves
and questioning of the status quo and
questioning of you know the things that
we were taught and actually looking at
it with fresh eyes I think that that's
so crucial in in any system of the way
humans organize themselves and I think
that's something that you can really see
as a value from science is this idea of
not just taking things for granted
because they were told to you from a
position of authority I wonder if you
can reflect from your own experience and
from the research she did in the book as
well about what happens when you

English: 
describe all the way throughout the book
that there are lots of traditions and
lots of rituals in your family from your
parents that were-- That felt familiar.
There were things that were done in
their household or meals that were
prepared or certain times of year in
Jewish culture where certain things were
celebrated, but that you also were honest
in the book and you say that you said to
your mother at one point, "I really want a
Christmas tree - I have to have a
Christmas tree", because you were a
teenager and you lived in America -
you live in America - and you felt that was the
cultural-- It was your kind of cultural
right to just celebrate Christmas in
some way shape or form. But I'm wondering
if you can reflect on what happens to us
when we kind of morph into other
people's rituals. If we take on
so many of them, do we kind of lose our
own-- our own sense of what our own ones
are, if we're just sort of trying them on
all the time. I suppose, where's
that-- How do we strike a balance between
our own cultural identity and the
trying-on of other people's rituals?
SASHA: Right, well I think that, you know, there are
certain things, like appropriation, that 

English: 
describe all the way throughout the book
that there are lots of traditions and
lots of rituals in your family from your
parents that were that felt the media
there were things that were done in
their household or meals that were
prepared or certain times of year in
Jewish culture where certain things were
celebrated but that you also were honest
in the book and you say that you said to
your mother at one point I really want a
Christmas tree I have to have a
Christmas tree because you were a
teenager and you lived in America
in America and you felt that was the
cultural it was your kind of cultural
right to just celebrate Christmas in
some way shape or form but I'm wondering
if you can reflect on what happens to us
when we kind of morph into other
people's rituals we take if we take on
so many of them do we kind of lose our
own our own sense of what our own ones
are if we're just sort of trying them on
all the time I suppose why it where's
that how do we strike a balance between
our own cultural identity and the
triangle of other people's rituals right
well I think that you know there are
certain things like appropriation that

English: 
are different than taking on the
majority thing, you know. And I did-- 
I totally-- yes, it's true. I totally made my
mum get me a Christmas tree. [laughs]
And it's-- It's funny because it's the kind of thing-- You 
know, when you're a kid you want to be--
You know, you don't want to be different, and
and I think that's very normal and I
think as we explore things and follow
our interests, in terms of rituals and
culture and stuff like that -
you know, it's something that
everyone has to do for themselves and
figure out what works for them but I
also think that the crucial element is
really learning the history and knowing
why things are the way they are and why--
Where these things came from and, I mean,
we did-- When I was a kid, my mother would
do Easter eggs with me. We would paint

English: 
are different than taking on the
majority thing you know and I did I
totally yes it's true I totally made my
money and and it's it's funny because
it's it's the kind of thing you know
when you're a kid you want to be you
know you don't want to be different and
and I think that's very normal and I
think as we explore things and follow
our interests in terms of rituals and
culture and stuff like that anything's
you know it's it's something that
everyone has to do for themselves and
figure out what works for them but I
also think that the crucial element is
really learning the history and knowing
why things are the way they are and why
where these things came from and I mean
we did when I was a kid my mother would
do Easter eggs with me we would paint

English: 
Easter eggs and I didn't ever think of
it as a Christian thing because it's
very to me very you know pagan and it
doesn't write the whole like the
colorful eggs thing is so much about
springtime and and so you know in
talking about the traditions and my
family that we did you know we had the
Passover Seder in the spring every year
but we had it from a secular point of
view until this you know it's
traditionally it's the story of Exodus
and we talked about you know what that
meant in in the context of this is this
is the story about our answer
stirrers when they were enslaved we're
free now we're really lucky but lots of
people around the world literally and
metaphorically are still enslaved by
poverty by racism by all these social
ills and this has to be a reminder that
not everybody is as lucky as we are

English: 
Easter eggs and I didn't ever think of
it as a Christian thing because it's
very - to me - very, you know, pagan and it
doesn't-- Right? The whole, like, the
colourful eggs thing is so much about
springtime and so, you know--
In talking about the traditions and my
family that we did-- You know, we had the
Passover Seder in the spring every year
but we had it from a secular point of
view, until this-- You know, it's--
Traditionally, it's the story of Exodus
and we talked about, you know, what that
meant in-- In the context of, this is
the story about our ancestors
when they were enslaved. We're
free now. We're really lucky. But lots of
people around the world, literally and
metaphorically, are still enslaved by
poverty, by racism, by all these social
ills - and this has to be a reminder that
not everybody is as lucky as we are

English: 
right now and we used to be in their
shoes, so let's take a moment to reflect
on that, so we can drive ourselves
forward to do good in the world. And I
think that that-- That idea of springtime
as a rebirth which - you know, it's literal
and metaphorical - and so many of the
spring holidays-- Is really powerful and
that it doesn't require any... any belief,
but the easter eggs to me were just this--
This beautiful little piece of art, again,
that we could do to celebrate that, like,
you know, we live in a very cold place.
Yeah, and it meant a lot to know that the
trees were gonna blossom soon. 
MICHAELA: So, you're also reminding us that it's also about the
eyes through which you see stuff. So for
someone for whom the Easter Egg was a
religious symbol, you might be taking on
their symbol and doing something with it.
For you it was a different kind of ritual - a
different kind of celebration - so it's

English: 
right now and we used to be in their
shoes so let's take a moment to reflect
on that so we can drive ourselves
forward to do good in the world and I
think that that that idea of springtime
as a rebirth which you know it's literal
and metaphorical and so many of the
spring holidays is really powerful and
that it doesn't require any any belief
but the easter eggs to me were just this
this beautiful little piece of art again
that we could do to celebrate that like
you know we live in a very cold place
yeah and it meant a lot to know that the
trees were gonna blossom soon so you're
also reminding us it's also about the
eyes through which you see stuff so for
someone for whom the Easter Egg was a
religious symbol you might be taking on
their symbol and doing that thing with
you it was a different kind of ritual a
different kind of celebration so it's

English: 
always about perspective I wanted to
jump around a little bit though there's
a chapter in your book called
independence days and you were just
talking about you know the the
significance of the messages that you
and your family thought about over the
Passover meal about being being been
freed from slavery being freed from
bondage but you in this chapter in
Independence day as you write about the
mythology around America you write about
myths a lot in the book and that you
write you find it hard to hold both the
aspirations of America and its crimes in
your head at the same time and that as a
society it suffers from a fear of
complexity I didn't want to lose an
opportunity because you are in now to
ask you about you know given the kinds
of deep thinking you've been doing
around your own life and creating
meaning and what that means and the kind
of society you want to create for your
own child if you can reflect on what's
what you feel about what's happening
in your country right now in relation to
how a society in a nation can move

English: 
always about perspective. I wanted to
jump around a little bit though - there's
a chapter in your book called
Independence Days, and you were just
talking about, you know, the
significance of the messages that you
and your family thought about over the
Passover meal - about being-- being-- being
freed from slavery, being freed from
bondage - but you, in this chapter - in
Independence Days - as you write about the
mythology around America. You write about
myths a lot in the book, and that you
write you find it "hard to hold both the
aspirations of America and its crimes in
your head at the same time" and that "as a
society it suffers from a fear of
complexity". I didn't want to lose an
opportunity - because you are in Boston now - to
ask you about, you know-- given the kinds
of deep thinking you've been doing
around your own life and creating
meaning and what that means and the kind
of society you want to create for your
own child. If you can reflect on what's--
What you feel about what's happening
in your country right now, in relation to
how a society in a nation can move
beyond what's happening in America.

English: 
beyond what's happening in America
absolutely I mean the United States was
founded and built on the enslavement of
Africans and the obliteration of Native
American societies I mean there's just
no question about it
this is what this country is and if we
don't face it if we don't come to terms
with it and we don't reckon with our
guilt and our privilege for those of us
who are in that position and we don't
come face to face with the systems that
keep people oppressed we cannot move
forward and I think that this idea of
questioning Authority questioning
ourselves as a value cannot just be a
pathway to you know scientific discovery
it also has to be a pathway to justice
and it also has to be a way in which we
can find an understanding that we are

English: 
SASHA: Absolutely. I mean, the United States was
founded and built on the enslavement of
Africans and the obliteration of Native
American societies. I mean, there's just
no question about it.
This is what this country is. And if we
don't face it, if we don't come to terms
with it, and we don't reckon with our
guilt and our privilege - for those of us
who are in that position - and we don't
come face-to-face with the systems that
keep people oppressed, we cannot move
forward and I think that this idea of
questioning authority, questioning
ourselves as a value, cannot just be a
pathway to, you know, scientific discovery.
It also has to be a pathway to justice.
And it also has to be a way in which we
can find an understanding that we are

English: 
all part of the system that oppresses
people and part of the system that is a
source of violence and cruelty and I
think that you know uprisings work not
always but sometimes they do and when I
see you know and we've been out there
and when I see people by the thousands
in the streets it gives me hope because
if we don't you know it's not like it's
like a you know if somebody is a cruel
oppressive abusive person and then just
oh sorry
let's not talk about it let's just move
on that's not a solution we have to
actually face this and come to terms
with it and look at why this is
happening and what are the pieces in
place that are making this a
centuries-old crime and so I think that
you know I listen I've lived with the

English: 
all part of the system that oppresses
people, and part of the system that is a
source of violence and cruelty. And I
think that you know uprisings work. Not
always. But sometimes they do, and when I
see, you know-- And we've been out there--
And when I see people by the thousands
in the streets, it gives me hope. Because
if we don't-- You know, it's not like-- It's
like a, you know-- If somebody is a cruel,
oppressive, abusive, person and then just
says, "Oh sorry,
let's not talk about it. Let's just move
on" - that's not a solution. We have to
actually face this and come to terms
with it and look at why this is
happening and what are the pieces in
place that are making this a
centuries-old crime and so I think that,
you know-- Listen, I've lived - with the

English: 
exception of study abroad for a semester
and two years in the UK - 
I have lived in the United States all my
life and there's so much about it that I
love, but I think, you know, as James
Baldwin said, if you love a
country then, you know-- I think he said "I
love America more than any other country
in the world and that's why I reserve the right to criticize her".
I think it's-- Again, we have to examine
our reality if we want to move forward.
MICHAELA: And I think it was your parents also who
wrote a fantastic essay called
Real Patriots Ask Questions, and there
seems to be a lot of that in many of the
things you've talked about this evening - 
about how your-- Your way of using
science to make sense of the world is
about questioning - always questioning.
Turning things over, discarding what
doesn't work anymore, what turns out to
be wrong or false or discriminatory
or exclusionary and moving
forward to a new truth or a new set of
rules or a new way of making sense of

English: 
exception of study abroad for a semester
and two years in the UK I
I have lived in the United States all my
life and there's so much about it that I
love but I think you know as James
Baldwin said like it's if you love a
country then you know I think he said I
love America more than any other country
in the world and that's why I have I
reserve the right to criticize her I
think it's again it we have to examine
our reality if we want to move forward
and I think it was your parents also who
wrote a fantastic essay called
real Patriots ask questions and there
seems to be a lot of that in many of the
things you've talked about this evening
about how your your your way of using
science to make sense of the world is
about questioning always questioning
turning things over discarding what
doesn't work anymore what turns out to
be wrong or false or discriminatory
orders or exclusionary and moving
forward to a new truth or a new set of
rules or a new way of making sense of

English: 
the world I want to ask you one more
question and then I'm gonna open up for
questions from our audience so if you've
got questions please feel free to put
them in the YouTube live chat or you can
send them to the Brisbin writers
festival during through the facebook
messenger that would be fantastic and
we'll get to them in a moment um your
parents coined a phrase for people who
like to make meaning out of almost
anything I think it might have been your
mother and they called it that they
called it that kind of person a
significance junkie and Hannah I just
wondered before I open to the audience
you know I are you one of those people
are you a success well I think I mean I
do love significance but I just but I
try not to force it you know and they
think that that you know we've all had
these experiences in our lives where
there's a astonishing coincidence you're
thinking of someone and they call you
run into someone you know from childhood
on the other side of the planet whatever
it is where you just think this is a
little bit too on-the-nose you know and

English: 
the world. I want to ask you one more
question and then I'm going to open up for
questions from our audience - so, if you've
got questions, please feel free to put
them in the YouTube live chat or you can
send them to the Brisbane Writers
Festival during-- Through Facebook
Messenger, that would be fantastic and
we'll get to them in a moment. Your
parents coined a phrase for people who
like to make meaning out of almost
anything - I think it might have been your
mother - and they called it-- they
called that kind of person a
'significance junkie' and I just
wondered, before I open to the audience,
you know, are you one of those people?
Are you a significance junkie yourself?
SASHA: Well, I think that it's-- I do love significance, but I 
try not to force it, you know, and I
think that, you know, we've all had
these experiences in our lives where
there's an astonishing coincidence. You're
thinking of someone and they call you.
Run into someone you know from childhood
on the other side of the planet. Whatever
it is where you just think "This is a
little bit too on-the-nose", you know, and

English: 
I have had those experiences in my life
that will stay with me for the rest of
my life and I think that urge to say
this is a sign this means something this
is a clue into the inner workings at the
universe is so powerful because we're so
we so crave that's the feeling of like
understanding what's at play what's
happening but I think that that kind of
thing I do not ascribe significance to I
just enjoy that you know once in a while
you know the lottery hit someone wins
the lottery random we said we took
universe and we are yes exactly and I
think that it's so beautiful and amazing
when an old friend calls the moment you
were thinking about them but I don't
think it's a message from I mean I think
it's a message from the friends not from
exactly mouth updates am I being exactly
okay so I've got a lovely question here
what is such as they what's your

English: 
I have had those experiences in my life
that will stay with me for the rest of
my life and I think that urge to say
"This is a sign, this means something, this
is a clue into the inner workings of the
universe" is so powerful because we're so--
We so crave that feeling of like,
understanding what's at play, what's
happening. But I think that that kind of
thing, I do not ascribe significance to.
I just enjoy that, you know, once in a while,
you know, the lottery-- someone wins the lottery.
MICHAELA: Random happenstance. We said we'd talk about 
the powers of the universe, and we are.
SASHA: Yes, exactly!
And I think that it's still beautiful and amazing
when an old friend calls the moment you
were thinking about them. But I don't
think it's a message from-- I mean, I think
it's a message from the friends, not from up high.
MICHAELA: Not from a higher being, exactly.
MICHAELA: Okay, so I've got a lovely question here:
What is Sasha's-- What's your favourite ritual to celebrate, and why?

English: 
favorite ritual to celebrate and why I
mean I love I love the Passover Seder
we still do it and now I have a daughter
and I get to share it with her and that
you know this year you know we were
under quarantine so it was just the
three of us my husband and my daughter
and I and we still did it and we got
dressed up and that was really
meaningful the other ritual that I love
that is specific to our family that I
write about in the book is we had a
speaking of random chance we happen to
one day in Washington DC get into the
taxi of a very wise sort of nosy
gentleman who asked us we were having a
serious conversation about my husband's
job and he the gentleman asked us um you
know how long we'd been married and we
hit Buber newlyweds and I won't regalia
with the whole story it's in the book
but essentially he broke into song and
insisted that we join him which we did
we were like is this happening and he

English: 
SASHA: I mean, I love - I love the Passover Seder.
We still do it, and now I have a daughter
and I get to share it with her. And that--
You know, this year, you know, we were
under quarantine, so it was just the
three of us - my husband and my daughter
and I - and we still did it and we got
dressed up and that was really
meaningful. The other ritual that I love,
that is specific to our family that I
write about in the book, is we had a
- speaking of random chance - we happen to,
one day in Washington D.C., get into the
taxi of a very wise, sort of nosy
gentleman, who asked us - we were having a
serious conversation about my husband's
job - and he, the gentleman asked us, you
know, how long we'd been married - and we
were newlyweds - and I won't regale
with the whole story - it's in the book -
but essentially, he broke into song and
insisted that we join him, which we did -
we were like, "Is this happening?" - and he

English: 
said, you know, you've got to sing every
every week. It's really important. And so
my husband and I sing the Alphabet Song
every weekend and, I mean, now we
have a toddler, so it's a little more--
MICHAELA: Makes more sense now
SASHA: Yeah, it's less embarassing!
MICHAELA: Because it was pretty strange before
SASHA: Yeah, when it was just two people in
their thirties belting out the Alphabet
Song every Saturday morning. But
that's something that's so small and so
silly in a lot of ways, but it's so
meaningful to us and, you know, that's an
example of something that you can create,
you know, spontaneously and it just sticks.
MICHAELA: A question here: How did you research
the rituals for your book? And someone
else has asked, did you travel to
any of the cultures or was it all mostly, kind of, online
research for you or books?
SASHA: It was mostly books and online. I have been lucky
enough to travel over the course of
my life and there was a lot of
inspiration drawn from the places that I
had been and in some cases from what I
had experienced there. But I really--
I love the work of Karen Armstrong. She has
a totally different philosophical point

English: 
said you know you've got to sing every
every week it's really important and so
my husband and I sing now off of that
song every weekend and I mean now we
have a toddler so it's a little more
peaceful now yeah it's less embarrassing
great yeah it was just two people in
their thirties belting out the I love
that song every Saturday morning but
that's something that's so small and so
silly in a lot of ways but it's so
meaningful to us and you know that's an
example of something that you can create
you know spontaneously and it just
sticks
questions here um how did you research
the rituals for your book and someone
else has asked did you travel to
cultures or was it almost like an online
research for you or books it it was
mostly books in online I have been lucky
enough to travel um over the course of
my life and there was a lot of
inspiration drawn from the places that I
had been and in some cases from what I
had experienced there but I really I
love the work of Karen Armstrong she has
a totally different philosophical point

English: 
of view than I do, but she's a historian
of religion who writes beautifully and I
learned a lot about the history of the
Abrahamic religions from her work and, you know--
MICHAELA: I should say that your book actually has a
reading list at the back. It's one of
those magic books for people that you can
actually see some of the things that
Sasha has read and get a hand on them yourself, which 
is really wonderful. Keep going.
SASHA: Thankyou, yes. And, you know, so much of-- so often, it
was, you know, starting with Google and
then would find a book that was about
that and then that book would, you know,
have a line or two about something, and I
thought "Oh, what's that?" and then find
more information and it was just-- sort of
just following those threads and, you know,
in some cases I got to, you know,
talk to people over the phone or in
person and ask them questions about
their research and it was-- It was really

English: 
of view than I do but she's a historian
of religion who writes beautifully and I
learned a lot about the history of the
Abrahamic religions from her work and
you know that your book actually has a
reading list at the back it's one of
those magical people that you can
actually see some of the things that
Setia has read and yourself which is
really wonderful keep going thank you
yes and you know so much of so often it
was you know starting with Google and
then would find a book that was about
that and then that book would you know
have a line or two about something and I
thought oh what's that and then find
more information and it was just sort of
just following those threads and you
know in some cases I got to you know
talk to people over the phone or in
person and ask them them questions about
their research and it was it was really
a exciting fun process to be able to
learn about so many of these these

English: 
beautiful beautiful traditions someone
else has asked with you have any tips on
finding ways to keep finding all and
wonder or purpose in life even when
we're going through turbulent times yeah
well I would say that my first tip is
hang out with small children they are
full of wonder and awe and like you know
my daughter she's nearly three I'm like
she freaks out every time she sees the
moon and it's like it's um it's like
fireworks to hurt you know it's
astonishing and I just think you know
it's so easy to lose that to be a blase
and be like yeah it's the moon what's
the big deal but when you see it through
the eyes of a small child and
we have learned my husband and I have
learned so much more about the phases of
the Moon than we ever knew over the last
six months since she's developed this in
chess and I think that like taking that
step back and saying wow there's this
satellite that orbits us that controls

English: 
an exciting, fun process, to be able to learn about so many of these-- 
These beautiful, beautiful traditions.
MICHAELA: Someone else has asked whether you have any tips on
finding ways to keep finding awe and
wonder, or purpose in life, even when
we're going through turbulent times.
SASHA: Yeah, well I would say that my first tip is
hang out with small children. They are
full of wonder and awe and like, you know,
my daughter - she's nearly three - and like,
she freaks out every time she sees the
moon. And it's, like, amaz-- It's like
fireworks to her, you know. It's
astonishing and I just think, you know,
it's so easy to lose that - to be blase
and be like "Yeah, it's the moon. What's
the big deal?", but when you see it through
the eyes of a small child-- And
we have learned, my husband and I have
learned, so much more about the phases of
the moon than we ever knew over the last
six months since she's developed this
interest, and I think that, like-- Taking that
step back and saying "Wow, there's this
satellite that orbits us, that controls

English: 
the tides, that changes over the course
of the month - this is so amazing and
beautiful", and I think taking that step
back and, sort of, trying to look at the
planet through the eyes of-- You know,
imagining you're from another world
and trying to learn, you know, see the
world - our world - through the eyes of an
outsider, I think can be so powerful. And
yeah, I think, you know, these are
turbulent times and this is really scary
and that's real, but I think
also the more you learn in history, the
more you read history, the more you
realise that we've-- Our species has been
through a lot.
MICHAELA: While we get some more questions coming through,
I want to put another one to you. It was
something that we talked about before,
when I mentioned that throughout the
book, you talk about how rituals are
inspired by the natural world. And as I 
said to you, I was amazed to discover how
many of them are inspired by biological
processes. Can you talk about some of
them? I mean, we talked about days of the

English: 
the tides that changes over the course
of the month this is so amazing and
beautiful and I think taking that step
back and sort of trying to look at the
planet through the eyes of you know
imagining you're from from another world
and trying to learn you know see the
world our world through the eyes of an
outsider I think can be so powerful and
yeah I think you know these are
turbulent times and this is really scary
in it and that's real and I but I think
also the more you learn in history the
more you read history the more you
realize that we've our species has been
through a lot there what we to get to
little questions coming through I want
to put another one to you it was
something that we talked about before
when I mentioned that throughout the
book you talk about how rituals are
inspired by the natural world and as I
said to you I was amazed to discover how
many of them are inspired by biological
processes can you talk about some of
them I mean we talked about days of the

English: 
week why there are 24 hours in a day but
these all kinds of things can you give a
few of those examples because they are
they really do blow your hair back yeah
well so the the equinoxes and solstices
right they mmm obviously and we're in
different hemispheres you and I talking
but the moment that you know the lung
and I really try not to be at the moment
we appreciate thank you but the moment
you know the longest day of the year in
one part of the world and the shortest
day of the year
you know simultaneously occurring and so
many of the winter you know of course
because of colonialism and imperialism
people celebrate holidays in places that
the holiday did not originate but you
know these this idea that in you know in
on the shortest day of the year when
things are really dark and cold
we need celebration and so many of the
holidays that in the
Northern Hemisphere fall around December

English: 
week, why there are 24 hours in a day, seasons - all 
kinds of things. Can you give a
few of those examples, because they are--
They really do blow your hair back.
SASHA: Yeah, well-- so the equinoxes and solstices,
right - and we're in
different hemispheres, you and I talking - 
but the moment that, you know--
And I really try not to be a Northern Hemisphere chauvinist - 
MICHAELA: I appreciate that. We appreciate that, thank you.
SASHA: But the moment, you know-- The longest day of the year in
one part of the world and the shortest
day of the year, you know, simultaneously occurring, and so
many of the winter-- You know, of course
because of colonialism and imperialism,
people celebrate holidays in places that
the holiday did not originate. But, you know,
this idea that in, you know--
On the shortest day of the year, when
things are really dark and cold,
we need celebration and so many of the
holidays that, in the
Northern Hemisphere fall around December 21st,

English: 
are rooted in that, and then, you
know, the equinox - the spring equinox - the
harvest festivals-- I mean, that's one of
the things that I find really beautiful
too, is like this idea of these festivals
that we have in the moments of abundance,
you know, when there's a lot to eat, when
everything is ready to be harvested, and
that all over the world, there are
celebrations that celebrate a specific
plant. You know, when it's that moment to
harvest rice or wheat or grapes or
whatever it is and that-- That is really
beautiful to me because it's such a
reflection on the animal-plant
relationship and that we have these
moments that, you know, maybe we don't
think of them when, you know, in the
United States - like when we have
Thanksgiving - but that is rooted in our
harvest festival and there's
gratitude for the abundance of nature.
MICHAELA: And I think it was something that you
said your mother used to say around
Thanksgiving. That she used to say "You
don't need to know who to thank in order

English: 
21st are rooted in that and then you
know the equinox is spring equinox the
harvest festivals I mean that's one of
the things that I find really beautiful
too is like this idea of these festivals
that we have in the moments of abundance
you know when there's a lot to eat when
everything is ready to be harvested and
that all over the world there are
celebrations that celebrate a specific
plant you know when it's that moment to
harvest rice or wheat or grapes or
whatever it is and that that is really
beautiful to me because it's such a
reflection on the animal plant
relationship and that we have these
moments that you know maybe we don't
think of them when you know in the
United States like when we have
Thanksgiving but that is rooted in our
harvest festival and and there's
gratitude for the abundance of nature I
don't think it was something that you
said your mother used to say around
Thanksgiving but she's to say you you
don't need to know who to thank in order

English: 
to give thanks yes lovely other
absolutely absolutely and I think that
that sense of gratitude even if it's
just that we are the beneficiaries of so
much random chance I think that really
finding beauty in that and and and
gratitude is is meaningful even if you
don't believe that it's preordained we
still have a little bit more time for
people's questions if you want to send
them to to session and to myself that
would be lovely but but in the meantime
I wanted to ask you actually about your
father which is that you you know you
talked about how you grew up with our
organized structure and kind of religion
in your life I wonder if you could
reflect a bit on what it was like to
mourn him what it's been like to mourn
him all these years without that
framework of religion and what I
understand about that through the work
you did for this book yeah I think that
you know that moment when you lose

English: 
to give thanks" - (Yes) - which was a lovely other--
SASHA: Absolutely, absolutely - and I think that
that sense of gratitude - even if it's
just that we are the beneficiaries of so
much random chance - I think that really
finding beauty in that and-- and
gratitude, is meaningful even if you
don't believe that it's preordained.
MICHAELA: We still have a little bit more time for
people's questions if you want to send
them to Sasha, and to myself, that
would be lovely. But in the meantime,
I wanted to ask you, actually, about your
father, which is that you, you know, you
talked about how you grew up without
organised, structured, kind of, religion
in your life. But I wonder if you could
reflect a bit on what it was like to
mourn him - what it's been like to mourn
him - all these years, without that
framework of religion and what you came to understand
about that through the work that you did for this book.
SASHA: Yeah, I think that,
you know, that moment when you lose

English: 
someone and you're just in that cloud,
you know, of grief and sometimes
shock - to have an infrastructure that's already
in place, of what to do, is so useful and
it's such a valuable thing that religion
offers - to have a map in that moment.
And I think that, you know, we did certain
things that were traditionally Jewish at
that time, but I think that there's
something really valuable about that and
as I was researching different, you know,
religious and cultural practices around
death and grieving and mourning, there
were certain ones that I just thought--
like a little bell went off where I
thought "Wow, yes that's really powerful"
and like in ancient Egypt, there was a
period of time where, after the loss of a
patriarch, the women in the family would

English: 
someone and you're just in that cloud
you know and of grief and sometimes
shock to have an infrastructure that's
already
in place of what to do is so useful and
it's such a valuable thing that religion
offers and to have a map in that moment
and I think that you know we did certain
things that were traditionally Jewish at
that time but I think that there's
something really valuable about that and
as I was researching different you know
religious and cultural practices around
death and grieving and mourning there
were certain ones that I just thought
like a little lake bell went off where I
thought wow yes that's really powerful
and like in ancient Egypt there was a
period of time where after the loss of a
patriarch the women in the family would

English: 
go through the streets bare-chested
beating their chests and you know I'm
not saying like oh we should let's start
that up again but I'm just saying that
was like such a little clear you could
over the eons you could see into the
feelings and emotions that are so real
and so human of people who lived in a
totally different society and you know
one of the Jewish traditions that I love
that I think is so beautiful is during
shifts like when you sit Shiva so like
the wake essentially you cover the
mirrors and the idea that you just don't
worry about like your eyeliner right now
just like you know what I mean don't
think about how you look and that kind
of thing where you have these little
little windows into the idea that every
society around the world throughout
history had to reckon with this feeling
that you're experiencing that we all
have to deal with it was so powerful and
you know I think that that the other

English: 
go through the streets bare-chested
beating their chests and, you know, I'm
not saying like "Oh, we should-- Let's start
that up again" but I'm just saying that
was like, such a little clear-- You could,
over the eons, you could see into the
feelings and emotions that are so real
and so human, of people who lived in a
totally different society and, you know,
one of the Jewish traditions that I love
that I think is so beautiful, is during--
Like, when you sit Shiva - so like,
the wake, essentially - you cover the
mirrors and the idea that you just don't
worry about, like, your eyeliner right now.
Just like-- You know what I mean? Don't
think about how you look, and that kind
of thing where you have these little,
little windows into the idea that every
society around the world throughout
history had to reckon with this feeling
that you're experiencing. That we all
have to deal with. It was so powerful and,
you know, I think that-- That the other

English: 
kind of rituals that really I found
stirring were the ones that acknowledge
that it's a long road and we have some
of that and Judaism we're you know for a
year you you do certain things after a
death but but just the idea that like
it's isn't it's not like it happens and
it's over you still have to reckon with
it for a long time and I
I found that really powerful - there was
a beautiful tradition that you write
about I think it was Japanese in the
book where when someone dies the
ancestors that they're their living
family members dress up as the person
who's just died oh it was it's an it was
an ancient Chinese I forget which
dynasty absolutely a tradition where it
was this practice where so when the
patriarch died the son would go through
this very intense mourning period and
sleep outside and do all these things to

English: 
kind of rituals that really I found
stirring, were the ones that acknowledge
that it's a long road and we have some
of that in Judaism, where, you know, for a
year you-- You do certain things after a
death. But just the idea that, like
it's not like it happens and it's over.
You still have to reckon with
it for a long time and I
found that really powerful too.
MICHAELA: There was a beautiful tradition that you write
about - I think it was Japanese - in the
book, where when someone dies, their
ancestors - their living
family members - dress up as the person
who's just died.
SASHA: Oh, it was, it's
an ancient Chinese - I forget which
dynasty - a tradition where it
was this practice where-- So, when the
patriarch died, the son would go through
this very intense mourning period and
sleep outside and do all these things to

English: 
help the patriarch transition into the
world of the ancestors, and then the son - 
so the grandson of the person who had
died - would take on the role of his
grandfather and dress up as him and-- and
have this, you know, ceremony where he
would sort of take on this role, and I
just kept thinking while I was reading about
it, how intense that must have been and
how powerful and in a world with no
photography and no recording when you
never-- You lose someone and you literally
never see them again, in the sense that at
least now, you know, we have a video or an
image of something. And to have that for
the father, to see their son in that role,
I just think, "God, that must have been
overwhelming", and to me that--
That is so profound and beautiful, and
just how many different ways human

English: 
help the patriarch transition into the
world of the ancestors and then the Sun
so the grandson of the person who had
died would hate on the role of his
grandfather and dress up as him and and
have um this you know ceremony where he
would sort of take on this role and I
just kept thinking I was reading about
it how intense that must have been and
how powerful and in a world with no
photography and no recording when you
never you lose someone and you literally
never see them again in the sunset at
least now you know we have a video or an
image or something and to have that for
the father to see their son in that role
I just think God that must have been
overwhelming and and it's to me that
that is so profound and beautiful and
just how many different ways human

English: 
beings have devised to reckon with this idea. 
MICHAELA: You did something a little bit like that yourself. There's a 
beautiful story towards the end of the book, where
your mother was filming an episode, 
and she asked you if
you would play the role - a non-speaking
role on camera - as your grandmother.
So, in a scene where your father is a young
child. And it reminded me a bit of that
ancient tradition - you were stepping - sort
of - stepping back into the shoes of
your family, to sort of, maybe even
channel what it would have been like.
SASHA: Absolutely. It was such a surreal experience
and the grandmother I never knew 
but I feel very connected with. My
middle name is for her. And it was a
little bit like getting to time travel,
you know. And it was such-- Getting
dressed up in the hair and the makeup
and being in the set that was like
the apartment that my father grew up in - 
It was-- I mean, it was really it was very,
very parallel to that.

English: 
beings have devised to reckon with this
idea he did something a little bit like
that yourself there's a beautiful story
building an episode and she asked you if
you would play the role and non-speaking
role on on camera as your grandmother so
in a scene where your father is a young
child and it reminded me a bit of that
ancient tradition you were stepping sort
of stepping into back into the shoes of
your family to sort of maybe even
channel what it would have been like
absolutely it was such a surreal
experience
and it's a grandmother I never knew what
but I feel very connected with I had my
middle name is for her and it was a
little bit like getting to time travel
you know and it was such an getting
dressed up in the hair and the makeup
and and being in the set that was like
the apartment that my father grew up in

English: 
MICHAELA: There's one last question I want to put to you 
before we finish, which is that someone's asked
are there any particular significant
life event rituals that you'd like to
raise your daughter with?
SASHA: Yes, I mean I-- I really, I want to leave it open to her
when she gets to the point where she can
say "I want this, I don't want this".
For now, I think just as many different
celebrations and rituals as I can offer
to her are great. My husband's fam-- Both
my husband and I are secular, but his
family, you know, he grew up with
Christian traditions and we do those too.
And we do, you know, all sorts of
things that are sort of peculiar to our
family, like the Alphabet Song, and I
think my job as a mum is to, at this
stage, give her as many as I can and then
follow her lead when she gets a little
bit older. And, you know, people sometimes
ask me "Well what if she doesn't carry on,

English: 
it was I mean it was really it was very
very parallel to that there's one last
question I want to put to you before we
finish which is that um someone's asked
are there any particular significant
life event rituals that you'd like to
raise your daughter with yes I mean I I
really I want to leave it open to her
when she gets to the point where she can
say I want this I don't want this for
now I think just as many different
celebrations and rituals as I can offer
to her are great my husband's mean both
my husband and I are secular but his
family you know he grew up with
Christian traditions and we do those too
and and we do you know all sorts of
things that are sort of peculiar to our
family like the alphabet song and I
think my my job as a mom is to at this
stage give her as many as I can and then
follow her lead when she gets a little
bit older and you know people sometimes
ask me well what if she doesn't carry on

English: 
you know the state or these other Jewish
traditions and I my position is I mean
we'll say hey maybe I'll eat these words
in 20 years but my position right now is
it's none of my business I can only
present her what has worked for me and
leave her the opportunity to figure out
what works for her so beautiful it's a
beautiful perspective to have I mean
you've shown us tonight all the
different ways that cultures are
connected through the ways they
celebrate you know moments in life your
parents taught and wrote that and spoke
that message through all their work and
you've also reminded us of that in your
work thank you for showing us the
multitude of ways that we could be more
connected to each other than we realize
and I wanted to say thank you as well to
our audience for being with us tonight
and Brisbane writers festival have more
events online planned so in the coming
months so you can check those out by
visiting the Brisbane writer's work
Brisbane writers festival website where
you can see all those details but for
now I wanted to thank everyone and
joined us tonight and - Thank You Sasha
Sagan for your time and generosity and

English: 
you know, the Seder or these other Jewish
traditions?" and I-- My position is, I mean - 
we'll see, maybe I'll eat these words
in 20 years - but my position right now is,
it's none of my business. I can only
present to her what has worked for me and
leave her the opportunity to figure out
what works for her.
MICHAELA: That's a beautiful, beautiful perspective to have. 
You've shown us tonight, all the
different ways that cultures are
connected through the ways they
celebrate, you know, moments in life. Your
parents taught and wrote that and spoke
that message through all their work and
you've also reminded us of that in your
work. Thank you for showing us the
multitude of ways that we could be more
connected to each other than we realise
and I wanted to say thank you as well to
our audience for being with us tonight,
and Brisbane Writers Festival have more
events online planned. So, in the coming
months you can check those out by
visiting the Brisbane Writers--
Brisbane Writers Festival website where
you can see all those details, but for
now I wanted to thank everyone who
joined us tonight and to thank you, Sasha
Sagan, for your time and generosity and

English: 
your beautiful ideas in this powerful
and really timely book. But for now, stay
well everyone, and enjoy the rest of your
evening. Thank you.

English: 
your beautiful ideas in this powerful
and really timely book but for now stay
well everyone and enjoy the rest of your
evening thank you
you
