>> This is such an important topic.
it's such a timely topic.
And we're so grateful to have
Dr. William Smith here with us
from the University of Utah.
Quick study.
(laughs)
I know people e-mailed me
and said they wish they
could be here for this
but they either have
classes or other commitments
but we are taping this.
We really need the message
that you have for us
here at Eastern.
I'm gonna turn this over to you.
And handle this however you want.
>> Well I appreciate the
opportunity to come here
and to actually learn from you
and then just share information I might
be able to share with you.
I recognize that this is
kind of a troubling time
to come home.
Some of you may have been told,
I'm an alumni of Eastern Illinois,
so I did my undergraduate here.
I did my master's here in
guidance and counseling.
I then went to the University of Illinois
and did my Ph.D. there
in educational policy.
I focused on quite a few
things that might be helpful
to at least...
share in the conversation with you all,
but I also want to learn
a little bit more about
what you have to offer
and how I can focus my
conversation with you.
I appreciate the fact that I see several
left-handed people in the room.
That means that it's gonna
be a great conversation.
>> Moderator: You got a bunch of geniuses.
>> Geniuses!
>> Not that we want you
right-handed people to leave.
This is an inquisition.
>> When you do these type of things,
you recognize the audience that you have
and I've been already informed
that this is the choir.
These are the people who
really kind of get it
and want to do things
around social justice,
so I appreciate that.
That just puts more
pressure on a few people
to do greater things for
the larger community.
Sometimes, you need the people who are
way out there to participate,
but we know their agenda.
So let me just kind of get a sense of
what's going on first
and how I might be most helpful.
So what's on the minds of when you think
about faculty development
in Eastern Illinois?
I was told to my surprise that
there might only be five
African-American faculty on campus
and I was here in the early '80's
and it probably was only five then.
So when you look at over a 30-year span,
not much has changed.
So that tells me that...
an emphasis needs to be put
on areas where you don't see
a positive trend line.
I looked at some of the data,
and I know this is a faculty development,
but Asian-American students
are dropping off here
and I saw where the high point was
and then it declined.
If I'm thinking about
Asian-American students,
we should see a positive trend,
so what happened that
that trend line started...
to go down?
What's going on in your minds at Eastern,
besides money and the furloughs.
>> I think one of the
things that's important
it feels like a really
important time for us
is that...
faculty diversity is very, very low,
but in spite of the trend
with Asian students,
student diversity is rising.
So when I first got here,
most of my classes of 25 or so
would have maybe one student of color,
and now a lot of my classes
are half students of color.
>> Dr. Smith: That's in...
>> Women's studies.
>> Women's studies.
>> Yes, and I know part of it is the
reputation of the program,
but I also know,
I mean we went from about
8% African-American students
to about 25% African-American
students since I've been here,
and I didn't get to do
that, that wasn't me.
It's what I know.
So one of the things I think
that I worry a lot about
is that our faculty
colleagues of color get
overtaxed with mentoring,
overtaxed with community work,
overtaxed with their expertise.
You know, that very often it's like,
well, the students say
"I wanna work on this,
"I'll go work with Dr. Smith
because she, Dr. Jamila Smith,
"will understand what I'm talking about."
The white faculty get a
little bit left off the hook
with developing and
learning and growing enough
that we can also mentor the
students in the same way
or in similar ways,
and so I worry about that
disparity between the diversity
of our students and the
diversity of our faculty.
My classes are so much better
now with a student diversity.
They're so much more
lively and interesting
and there's power there.
There's dynamic discussion
and people are coming from the same place,
so they're all about thinking similarly
and it's such a beautiful thing
but then they, you know,
they don't always know
who they can work with
and I find that we are burning out
our colleagues of color
in really hard ways.
>> I mean your, let me call it testimony,
your testimony is clearly
connected to the data.
I mean that's what we're
seeing across the country.
And now, the opposite side of that
and I can give you a bit
of personal experience.
I don't know if you know
Dr. Epilee who was here
he's retired now.
But, I was already in my
masters program when he came.
But he came with such
energy and excitement
and willingness to wanna connect that,
I connected with him immediately,
and he became a mentor to me,
so there were no faculty
of color in that program
but the fact that he was interested
to work with students of color
resonated with me.
And so what you saw was,
kind of what I've been calling
about my experience at Eastern.
He was the underground railroad.
So, you started seeing a
lot of students of color
particularly in, I'm in a predominantly
African-American fraternity.
So my fraternity brothers started
coming through that program
in large numbers and when you
started seeing black students
go through there having
a successful experience
and being mentored, and weren't looked at
as if you were a second class citizen.
That got out to the campus.
And so, you're right that
the faculty of color feel
taxed and overloaded.
But to relieve their pressure,
when you have white faculty like him
and I think no matter what
program you go through,
If you ask students of color
or graduates of doctorate degrees,
"Was there a white person who mentored you
"or did something to help
you get to where you are?"
Most would say yes.
>> Teacher in Red: Oh yeah, yeah.
>> And so, we know that,
mentoring shouldn't just be
in the hands of faculty of
color for students of color.
But you're right, there are many.
If you, particularly in
a research institution
I'm in a program right now and it's
those who are gonna be full professors
and one of the things
that they talk about is
to say no to service.
Just say no, right?
But it is very easy
for white faculty members to say no.
Cause if you say no,
there's gonna be 12 other
white faculty members who
might equally distribute
that kind of service load.
But when you feel like
you have no place to go,
so race definitely is a factor,
but you can look at gender
and when I say gender, I mean gender.
I don't mean just women
but women definitely.
So if I am a female student
and I don't feel like if
it's predominantly males
in a department,
and they're not giving
me that same experience
that they're giving their male students
then where do I go, right?
And so the same thing
when you talk about gender,
we see that with black
males, Latino males,
being made to feel like
they're, again, second rate,
not as competent.
So I don't really want to work with you.
One experience that I had here
and I'm talking about it
tomorrow, somebody picks it up.
I have a slide where I talk
about racial microagressions
and in that slide is walking with me
through my academic journey
and I'll let the audience pick
a picture from that slide.
So one of the pictures on that slide
is a lab of students, students in a lab.
And it happened to me
here in a chemistry lab
where the professor
said, okay, partner up,
and before you know,
everybody turned away from me
and they partnered up all around the room
and I was like, and it was a odd number.
So, I had nobody, right?
And so,
what were the identifying
factors in there?
I was the only black,
and I was a football player
and I think most of them
knew I was a football player.
So now you got...
and then I'm a black male.
So you're talking about
double jeopardy with being
African-American and then black male
and then you throw athlete,
particularly football player on there
and they think football
players are dumb jocks.
Alright, black, black male, dumb jock.
So nobody wanted to work with me.
So I had to work with the T.A., right?
And then once they started seeing,
wow, this guy got it going on, you know,
and then we saw the scores come up.
They said, "I want to partner with you."
Oh no, I'm doing this on my own!
(laughter)
So, I didn't have any
partners that whole semester,
and I got an A, right?
Now I won the stereotype at least,
I don't know if it broke
the whole stereotype
but this individual was broken right,
so it's like, oh he's not a dumb jock,
he's not a dumb black male, right.
So, but the thing is,
what was that experience for me like?
And immediately you
thought something negative
about me.
>> Moderator: And you broke
the stereotype in one class
but then had to do it in
class after class after class.
>> Exactly.
>> Moderator: But, in any situation--
>> Right
>> Moderator: That's, that's cool.
>> Not necessarily to what he just said,
breaking the stereotype.
No, they call it an explanation.
The exception.
>> Wait, what, you said
was in your own case,
you qualify breaking the stereotype
in your own case.
But then, to have to do it,
like that's part of the fatigue isn't it,
that you have to do it again
and again.
>> That's the problem that,
then I go into another situation
and I actually don't
have this on the slide
but then, and I shouldn't say this
cause it's recorded, so I won't mention
the professor's name,
but he was an anthropologist here
and he was--
(laughs)
His classes were considered
a blow off class.
I never trusted blow offs.
I was too paranoid,
I was gonna do my work.
I was just, and my mother is a teacher,
so I was just trained to be like that.
And, but it was a blow off alright.
I did everything in that class.
Now, it came to test day
and he said,
"I want to discourage cheating."
Now it was actually four
black males in that class.
We were all football players,
the other three probably took it
because it was considered a blow off.
And he said "I want to
discourage cheating.
"You, go to that corner,
"you go to that corner,
"you go to that corner,
"and you go to that corner."
On my...
So, he separated us into corners.
I'm in the back corner,
this is the chalkboard up here.
I'm over there and so,
what I see is in the middle section
is all sorority sisters.
This is the first time I ever
seen something like this.
Their boyfriends were behind them
or fraternity brothers, I don't know what,
but they had a relationship.
All the girls had long hair.
They had a cheat sheet
taped to the back of their,
to their back.
And so the guys would move their hair.
So I'm seeing this,
but he's focused on the black
males in the class, right?
And the guys are cheating.
So, you know again, now the
message is sent to the students.
I wanna discourage cheating,
so I'm-a separate the blacks, right.
Now, you would say it
would be kinda hard pressed
for somebody in 2016 to probably do that,
but other things like that happen.
So, instead of separate 'em,
it's watching 'em, right?
Not watching over here,
but watching them.
So that's students,
but for faculty you know,
the service load is very
draining, very draining.
So what do we do to try to
remove that responsibility?
We have to share equitably.
But we have to be receptive
of LGBT who come in here,
I don't, despite what your
beliefs are, you know.
You have to be receptive of people
and willing to nurture, mentor students,
in all categories.
And not just have certain members
have to go to their own group, right.
Because it's always gonna
be more whites on campus
than there are anybody else, right?
And so, that's been a problem.
And then you have stuff
that happens on campus.
You go, there's one professor
in one of my studies, where he
was carrying his computer to his car
and the campus police stopped him
and he was dressed, suit and everything,
and questioned him on,
where are you taking this computer?
And it was his own personal computer,
"I'm taking it home," right.
And so, he had to go
through this whole exchange
that the police basically
held the computer
thinking that he was stealing it.
You know, typically, a white person,
white faculty members walking out,
particularly a man with
a suit, no question.
But him, being questioned
and when I talk about
racial battle fatigue,
those type of experiences
constantly happen, you know
that people don't account for.
I've been in Salt Lake City,
this is my seventeenth year.
And most people, when they think of Utah,
that's not the place that anybody
would think about going to right,
even white folks.
Like, "I just can't imagine."
Yeah, but you in and out.
We gonna go to a slope,
we gonna drink in the mountains
we gonna do hot chocolate
and we gone.
So, most whites don't even
think about going to Utah,
particularly if they're not Mormon.
And so, you know so,
Utah has a stereotype,
and it's really not true,
most of it.
So once you get there, you're gonna ask
"Wow, this is not a bad place to be."
Hence, I'm there, it's going on 17 years.
Now my wife did the first year,
she was like, "Look we
gotta get outta here."
I said, "You gotta woman up."
(laughs)
You gotta do some, get a
black woman's book club
and all, so she did that.
Got a book club, got with her sorority,
got more involved in church,
did all these other things.
Now she happy, she can't
see herself leaving.
She's a professor as well.
But...
one of the things, another
picture on that slide
I'll show tomorrow, is some bananas.
And if somebody pick that
the story I would tell
is just this past Thursday.
A bag of bananas was
left on our porch, right.
And so now, we're like and we've only had
driving while black,
we've had issues with...
I'll tell you some of the things
that black faculty go through
and it's also what's true
in the data that we have.
But when you think about
something like that,
is it a racial connotation?
I mean, no note, no anything,
just some bananas on your porch.
So you're thinking, so
now you gotta question,
is this a racist stereotype,
black apes type thing?
Is somebody trying to send a message?
Is it a stupid teenager
making a racist joke or something?
So now you questioning yourself, right?
'Cause you can't even rationalize
why somebody would leave
some bananas on your porch.
And you definitely wouldn't bring em
into your house to eat em, right?
Food just left on your porch, right?
So now, that's one thing,
but one of the, I mean just think about
what you and I heard that some black
or some faculty of color commute
from Champaign, here.
But, you have to think about
when you're talking about
racial battle fatigue,
what happens when they
come into a community?
Are they accepted?
One of the things we
deliberately put our kids
in an elementary school
that we thought was good,
and at least the most
diverse that we could find
in Salt Lake city, in our area.
And, the kindergarten teacher
was supposed to be among the best.
Older woman, been teaching for years.
Now, our second son, was in her class
and, it was around Christmastime
and they were coloring angels, right,
and Christmas ornaments.
But he had an angel and he's coloring.
And so he's all happy about his picture.
Angel was colored brown with black hair.
She's all, "No, no, baby,
angels are pink skin
"and gold hair."
>> Teacher in Red: Has she seen one?
>> Yeah.
(laughs)
>> Teacher in Red: Has she seen an angel?
>> So what's the message that's delivered
not to just him, but the
rest of the classroom, right.
Black folks don't go to heaven.
I think Tupac had a song
about something like that.
But, that's the message that was sent
to the whole classroom,
and he comes home crying, right?
And so, and telling that story.
So, I had to ask my
wife to go deal with it
because I'm six three, over 200 pounds.
So no matter how passive I
try to deliver the message,
it comes across as, "Oh,
he came across aggressive."
So a lot of times, she, I
mean that's another part
of this whole race-related stress.
That you gotta figure
out who's the best person
to deal with a situation, right?
And often times, she has to go in
to deal with it, because if I stand up,
I represent the top three percent
of the U.S. male population.
You're 6 3" or taller,
you're the top three percent.
So, most people are gonna
be shorter than me, right?
And so, I stand up for any reason,
now it's a threat.
So I have to talk very low,
very passive, just to try to
make you feel comfortable.
>> Moderator: You've seen
that skit of Key & Peele?
>> Which one?
>> Moderator: Anger management,
you know, what is it,
Obama's--
>> Oh yeah, when he has--
>> [Teacher in White] The anger explainer?
>> Teacher in Red: The anger translator.
>> Right.
And that's what you feel sometime right,
So now you got, all of these things
and you're trying to be a faculty member.
So now you get questioned
about your authority, your ability.
I mean, some faculty members have to
tell everything that they've done
at the beginning of a classroom.
Where they got their Ph.D from.
Now mine came from one of the top three
programs in the country.
And so you had to start there,
just to prove to them.
And women have to do that too, you know.
White women, particularly
outside of gender studies
or women's studies.
Cause that's the only place you can have
some authority, right?
Is in women studies.
Okay, we'll give you that.
But just like we were
talking about earlier,
Those programs are considered auxiliary.
Not central.
And if they're not made
central, women's studies,
gender studies, ethnic studies,
African-American studies,
Latino studies, Asian studies.
If they're not central
to the campus mission
then you're failing the students, right?
So you need the resources
to support those programs to make sure
that every student has to touch that.
Even if they're not majors or minors,
they have to come through that,
cause you will make a better citizen.
We have to understand the needs, concerns
of LGBTQ community.
We have to understand,
the issues around equality
and equity and everything else
and then the contribution
of ethnic minorities
and how they're a part
of our history, right?
It's not just African American history,
it's U.S. history, right?
So, if they're made to just be auxiliary,
they're not central.
>> How do you, I mean, what
advice do you have for,
coping in times like this?
Like, how, you know,
we're facing the brink
and the humanities are
probably the most embattled
in terms of courses that might...
They haven't talked about this yet,
elimination course but
they talked about it
last night at the union meeting
and...
that is one concern:
how do we keep these
programs relevant and central
to the mission?
I mean, technically we're
part of the mission, right?
But, my other question is, I really feel
a big problem is we have, right now,
no people of color in upper,
in the administration.
And we, the person in civil rights
who, she might have been
here when you were here,
Cynthia Nichols,
she retired a couple of years ago
and there's been nobody holding,
hiring and we've got
all these interim deans.
We have had,
while we do not have very many
African-American faculty,
we do have quite a few
very competent and
skilled faculty of color,
international faculty, Catherine, do you?
(laughs)
>> Mmm, I'm Russian.
(laughs)
>> And what area are you in?
>> Oh, I'm in the Department
of Counseling and Student
Development, CSA, I think
you have an issue in CSA.
>> Okay, it wasn't called that,
>> Catherine: Guidance
and community, yeah.
>> And so, we are really,
I don't know how,
I mean, every time I talk
to the provost, practically,
I'm talking about the need, this need
and then he says, "Well,
I gave the search over
"to these people."
And I'm wondering where
does the charge come from,
if it doesn't come from the top?
And, you know there's
one person in particular
that is, I think extremely gifted,
and smart, confident,
has been through the ropes
and she didn't even get a look in.
And she's Ethiopian-American and she's
been an acting chair, and the
person who got the position
in her place has not had chair experience
and is a white man and you know.
How did that happen?
Why didn't she even get an interview?
And, we don't even, how do we as faculty
call the administration to account.
>> Well, I would consider
that a failed search.
If you keep replacing with
what you had, and you're not--
>> Moderator: Regis, so happy to see you,
this is our Dean of Continuing Education.
>> Okay.
>> Regis: I apologize for
being late, I had a conflict.
>> No problem
>> Moderator: We're talking
about failed searches
for interim--
>> For anything.
>> Moderator: We have faculty
of color who are not getting
looked in, and...
>> [Teacher in White]
Can I chime in, here?
>> Moderator: Yes, please.
>> I do this informal polling
of my students in class
and just them, what
brought you to Eastern?
I mean, we have recruitment on our minds,
like, everyone of us does right.
And our students are the
best informal recruitment
team in the world.
So word of mouth is very very important,
just as you were talking about earlier.
If there is a supportive community here
for students of color,
all of those students tell their friends,
and, it's not just that, I
mean, I'm polling my students
and most of my students are Caucasian.
And those students are telling me as well,
like, "Well, I had school,
high school student friends
"who don't want to come here
"because the reputation is not good
"as a diverse campus."
It hurts everybody when the
community is not supportive
of every student who is a
qualified student to be here.
I mean, it is just, we
failed in our public mission
to serve all students in the state
who want to come here.
So it's very, very important that we like,
you seem to be, Dr.
Smith, talking about a lot
of macroaggressions, you know.
Real failures in pedagogy
and just being failures
of human beings, you know,
failed human beings really.
>> Teacher in Red: Failed searches.
>> Yeah, failed searches in life.
>> Mine--
Am I, oh sorry--
>> Dr. Smith: No go ahead--
>> I'm interrupting everybody
now, it's my talent.
>> Moderator: Tell us what you think.
>> No, I was, I keep thinking
about all these issues
are in my mind and also
that the retention from me,
I'm in the theater
department so it's special
but it's different maybe
or maybe it's not, I don't know,
it's the only thing I know.
But...
So I'm part of the choir,
I think I am right,
I think like, all of these
issues have been on my mind
my whole career.
I'd like to make art about it,
I'm very loud about the season we select
and about not color blind casting,
but color conscious casting, you know,
I raised a ruckus in the Fall
because there was one person of color
who...
up on the stage the entire Fall,
you know, and it's not
serving our students.
All of our students need to be represented
on the stage.
So I feel like I'm fighting the good fight
and I feel like I grew up
in a really racist town
in a really racist time
and I told the story to my students
when we were talking about
color conscious casting,
about how we got a
student in the fifth grade
in an all white class and he was black
and his name was Ali Kamara.
And my teacher said, Mrs.
Leanne Felter, a German,
said, "That's too hard to say.
"I'm just gonna call you Junior."
He wasn't a Junior,
that wasn't a part of his name at all.
She just...
So, what's the message to all of us right?
And, she had a jar that
when we all did our homework
she'd put a piece of candy in it
and before he'd even had one day in
she said, but, I'm just
gonna make a separate
Junior jar for you.
Until we know that you can be part of this
homework candy thing.
And she kept this separate junior jar
with no irony in 1988.
Like, in no irony.
So, I think, well my God,
we're past that right.
So, I'm telling this story
and then I look around
at the end of my Shakespeare
class last semester,
and of the four
African-American students I had,
and it's a small class, it's only 12.
But only one of them completed the class.
So, what am I doing that's not working?
So that's the part, I think I'm an,
I mean, I think I'm creating a safe space,
and working on this, and
encouraging different styles
of learning and different backgrounds.
But at the end of the day,
and you know,
one of them dropped out really, I think,
I don't know what his deal was,
that was early.
But three of them made it close to the end
and then, one of them,
who was my, one of my best
students I've ever had,
he didn't, you know, he didn't
make it back this semester.
When I asked him, I was
expecting him to play Romeo
and when I emailed him,
I was like, where are you?
He was like, oh, I failed
every class but yours,
I'm not back.
>> So you see,
>> So, we're not doing something.
>> So it wasn't you, in his case.
>> Maybe, maybe him.
>> It was everybody else
>> Yes, it could be a whole host of things
and then you're just seeing the outcome
of what the total experience is like.
So, you know, thank you.
So, I think part of it is that,
one, again, with these, back
to this failed search thing.
It has to be a central
administration issue, matter.
So from the President,
Vice President, everybody.
You have to ask yourself,
what kind of institution do we want to be?
What kind of institution do
we want to produce students?
If we want the greatest students,
that means diversity.
At all levels, administratively
and students, right?
Nobody, if you have...
investments, stocks, you
don't put all your money
in one stock, you diversify.
We like diversity in everything
except when it comes to race and women.
Utah's done a great job
around women administrators
under our current President.
If you look at the organizational chart.
We have, I mean, unfortunately,
it's mostly white women,
women, in and out lesbians
at some of the highest ranking
offices at our institution.
And you wouldn't expect
that at Utah, right?
But it was a good search.
Women have broken through
that glass ceiling
at our university.
We need to have faculty of color
and administrators break through, still.
But one of the ways that, you do it,
if this school doesn't have
a chief diversity officer,
It's failing all its
students, all its students.
Cause a chief diversity officer keeps
accountability of the mission.
And I read the mission.
And if your mission statement says
that you are doing this,
you're supposed to do it.
And you're supposed to have...
measurements about how you...
reaching your mission.
So, if it says diversity
in the mission statement,
and you're not doing it,
and you don't have a
Chief Diversity Officer
who can look at every search
to see if it's a diverse pool,
and if it's not diverse,
close the search down.
Start it over, right?
We want the best out there.
And whatever area it is,
and the best means that
it's got to be diversified.
If you're only looking
and you come up with six white males,
that's a problem.
That's a problem, right?
When we know that those fields
have more diversity in it.
So that means that you're only
going to the people you know.
Your special interest groups that you know
and you're advertising there
instead of the black SIGs
and the Latino SIGs
and the Asian SIGs.
If those are part of your overall,
like, when I was associate dean,
I had control over faculty development.
If the search wasn't
successful in my books,
closing this sucker down,
start it over.
I'm not gonna approve anything
until you show me that
you can have diversity
across the board.
>> I think we also do here,
sometimes, kind of.
I hate to call it self fulfilling prophecy
cause fulfilling has such
a positive connotation.
But when I've watched people,
when I've watched searches go through,
both internal and external searches,
very often, what I'm
hearing among my colleagues
who are here now is,
"Well you know, we don't have
very many people of color,
"well but they're not gonna
wanna live here anyway."
And the "Well, but they're not
gonna wanna live here anyway"
then translates immediately
into when we hire someone
of color, we're not,
this isn't a place where they wanna live
because we're all saying
"They don't wanna live here anyway."
Like, that's not, that
doesn't change anything,
it doesn't make us a better community,
it doesn't make it any easier
for people to move here
and then it just becomes
this sort of cycle
of exclusion that looks very kind,
but isn't kind, it's exclusion.
>> And I think two questions always
have to be asked after that.
Make the person go on and tell you,
why wouldn't it be a good place for them?
So, they've already recognized
and identified these things.
So what are either you
or the insitution doing
to make it a better situation.
>> Teacher in Red: That's the
one we fail unrepentantly.
>> Right.
Then a second thing,
and I said this in the previous meeting,
is that we're okay with white mediocrity.
So, what it means is, we
don't get the best search,
so we can hire us,
particularly a white male,
who's mediocre, can come in,
and we're okay with that,
instead of having the best, right?
So we'll deal with mediocrity,
but we won't deal with
trying to get excellence,
and when you want excellence,
then you gotta make sure
that the environment
is supportive of excellent
contributions, right?
Yeah, it has to be inclusive.
You can't look around a room
and everybody looks the same.
It has to have diversity.
And Eastern Illinois, if it
was only five black faculty
when I was here over 30 years ago,
then it can't have just
five black faculty.
That's not positive growth
and it's not the same ones.
>> No, and it circles back
to the fact then that,
because we want inclusion
on our committees
that there's an overburden of service
on our faculty of color to represent.
>> And if you add all that stuff up,
then what you're basically saying is
that those faculty of color are,
at least one and a half service
loads than other people.
But I'm gonna pay em just like
they're a regular
faculty who could say no.
Go to somebody else.
Like in our previous meeting,
we said that there's
20 other white faculty
that students could go to
when one say no.
And they could get their needs met.
But if they're all going
to the black faculty,
or they're all going to the gay faculty,
or they're all going to that one woman
in a predominantly male department,
then the workload is too high.
And you're not compensating
her or him for that.
And you know it, that's
the problem, you know it.
Everybody can identify it,
they have a service load
that is out of this world
that I wouldn't want to have,
but we're gonna pay them the same.
We won't compensate them for that.
Sometimes money heals all wounds.
Not all the time, but it helps.
>> Moderator: At least it acknowledges
that the issue is there.
>> Merit awards, all kind
of other recognitions,
it helps, you know?
But you have to recognize the fact
that the workload is extraordinary.
And that's the thing
that unfortunately most
faculty of color can't say no to,
cause they knew that there was somebody
who helped them.
And so they feel obligated to try to help.
And, not that white faculty
members haven't gotten help,
they've gotten help, and
mentor, but if they--
>> Oh no, we all just really... (laughs)
>> But you have a luxury to
say, I'm too busy right now
and you don't feel as bad,
'cause you know that there's other
white faculty members who
can take over for you.
But, the thing is, when I was
associate dean over hiring,
I said look.
There's two things, when
the dean appointed me
and he asked me to be his associate dean,
he was a white male,
and I tried to put politics out of there,
but he was in the style of a JFK,
alright, but better.
And he wanted diversity,
he wanted social justice.
That was central to his
mission as the dean.
So when he asked me to be
over faculty development,
student affairs with
diversity as the emphasis,
I said, only under this condition.
One, that I have oversight over hiring,
and with that, the
pools have to be diverse
and I'm not as concerned
about who the final candidate is,
about their racial-ethnic makeup,
as I am with what's on their meter.
What's their life history?
Can they teach and mentor
in a diverse population?
So if a white faculty member can't do it,
then we're not hiring her,
or hiring him, alright?
Because she has to show me
that she's had something,
membership in an organization,
or done something in her experience
that she can mentor diverse students.
We were the diverse college,
we still are the most
diverse college on campus.
So she has or he has to show
me they have that ability.
What does that do?
That releases some of the service burden
or, I shouldn't call it a burden.
It relieves some of the service loads
that's directed towards
the faculty of color
because I have a competent
white faculty member
who can mentor students of color
along with white students.
So that's what I would do.
Just like when you look at a...
and I told the dean, I had to teach him.
I said when we look at, like,
if it's a black applicant,
we want to see what organizations
she belonged to or he belonged to.
What's the, you know,
the V that represents
your life, right?
We want to see the life story.
White applicant, we just
want to know where they went
to school, how many publications
they have, were they
mentored by some star out there.
Bring them in, bring them in.
We don't go down that
list like we do for the
candidates of color.
So, we started going down lists,
even if special ed, I think
somebody said special ed here?
Nobody's special ed?
Must have been the last one.
Even if special ed, we've
got the first person of color
in the history of that department.
Because I made them do it.
You're gonna find me somebody, right?
We're not gonna keep hiring--
And actually, what that
was, we did a targeted hire.
So I approved targeted hires,
and went through central
administration and made
sure we could do all this.
If you have, and actually,
that person was Asian-American
that we hired.
If you've got a special talent,
then we can go around the
typical search process and come after you.
Because if we sent that
out, there's only gonna be
a few people.
So we can target our search.
So, some of the things we
did was targeted searches,
I went and gave some of the talk
to University of Miami of Ohio.
Did this whole thing.
Three days.
Did a university-wide lecture.
But I met with the Dean of
the College of Education.
And in that meeting with the
dean, her associate deans,
the department chairs, and
some key faculty members,
told them one of the most--
if you want diversity at
the University of Miami,
because when I flew in there,
I forget what airport I landed
in, if it was Indianapolis,
or someplace, they had a limo
to pick me up, and so, we're going,
it felt like we was going back in time.
I said, "Just stop
before you get to 1863."
(laughter)
I don't wanna get to slavery.
But, we're going through, and
just felt like, we're going
back, there's 1910, there's
1890, like, hold up.
So, once we got into campus,
I heard all kind of stories
of faculty members about how hard it is.
Confederate flags and
being run off the road,
and students, I talked to a student class,
or a class of students, and...
the black males were always
asked if they were in gangs,
and things like that.
Just everything you could imagine.
But when I talked to
the Dean, I said, "Look,
"the only way you can do
this is targeted hires,
"or you do kind of a cohort,
"where you bring in two or more,"
"who have a specialization
that you need, and so,
"you can go after them."
And so, after I left, I
didn't communicate with them.
But two years later, I run
into some of the people that
I talked to, and they had
four faculty members, and they
said, "He's the reason
why you all are here."
And all the sudden, boom.
Diversity.
And very competent people.
But they brought in two at a time, right?
So now they have two people that can
be there together, support each other,
with supportive faculty members.
And they had a dean who got it.
She hadn't thought about it,
but she got it then and how
important it was, and she made it happen.
>> Can you describe to me a target?
>> Targeted hire, like in most,
you can do it in teaching
institutions too,
but in research-intensive institutions,
like, I get targeted a lot.
But its, so I have a certain
specialization that I do,
that a lot of people don't do.
And they say, the department will say,
"We need William Smith.
"He does X, Y, and Z.
"So let's go after him to get him here,
"and this will benefit
the department's exposure,
"we'll attract more students,
the students that are here
"want to study under somebody like that."
Those type of things happen.
>> Moderator: So is it
like headhunting then?
>> It's almost like a headhunter, yeah.
Actually headhunters come
after me now for deans and
associate vice president positions.
>> Teacher in Red: Such
violent terms, targeting
and headhunting.
Is there another way
to make it sound nicer?
>> It's always stealing, so,
you know, I don't know how you
can get away from it.
>> Moderator: Can I ask what's
happened to that position now
that you've stepped down from it?
>> From associate dean?
Well, you know, when I stepped
down, a new dean came in.
So, I stayed on only...
through the transition.
We had some interim deans.
And so I stayed on until we
were bringing in the new dean.
Once I stepped down and she
came in, she basically, like
most deans do, changed
it to her own style.
So, my position was basically taken away.
Whereas the dean that I came under,
he negotiated that,
"I need a dean that's able to do this.
"So if I take the position,
I want this, this, and that."
She didn't see it as part of her makeup.
>> Moderator: I mean, so, the
policies that you put in place
did not--
>> Well some of them had
last, I created a diversity
action task force.
And so, what that was to do,
was to break down the silos
in our college.
And our dean was pretty big on that.
When he interviewed for the
position, and he came through
the ranks; he was a student,
undergrad, graduate student,
long time faculty member, long
time associate dean, so he
came, he was like the Lou Hinkin.
Now he's the Vice President
of Global Affairs.
He's...
had that vision.
But when I created the
first action task force,
the departments were
doing their own thing.
And many were struggling,
especially with to diversify.
So what I wanted to do,
like, for instance, ed psych.
They do wonderful things.
>> Teacher in Red: That's my Ph.D.
>> Okay, alright.
So, by bringing all those
groups together, we can say,
"What are you doing
individually that we all
"could benefit from?"
So now it becomes a college-wide effort.
So, student recruitment days or,
ed psych did a wonderful job of that,
they're bringing in all these students,
many of them we'll get.
Assistanceships and things like that.
So those models brought
together to discuss--
at first, I had a big group.
People who, like you guys,
just interested in change.
It was too big, to wildly,
so I reduced it to basically
department chairs, and so
now I'm holding all the
department chairs accountable.
So, we get in there, we talk,
we see what others are doing,
we work together, now we go after it
as a college.
So, with that, we went
after students, our student
population, diversity population
continued to increase,
our faculty of color
increased across all units--
like I said, special ed is
the hardest one, because the
history of special ed, right?
You don't get many, particularly
African-American faculty
members, but they always
said, "Oh, there's no blacks."
What I did was, I went, I said,
"Tell me the top 10 special
ed programs in the country."
They told me.
I went, and I looked at the
websites of those top 10,
and I looked for faculty of
color, and I found 'em, and I
called all of 'em, and
I said, "Look, this is
"what we're doing."
And I explained Utah to them,
and what I was going to do
was to bring them out, just
to give a lecture, right?
And say, "We want you to give
a talk on this topic that
"could benefit the college,
but focus on special ed."
And so, all these top professors started,
"I didn't really realize that
Utah was as good as it is."
And there was one black female
who was very, she was a full
professor, real interested
in coming after this
kind of courtship.
But that's a targeted hire.
We courted you.
We gonna bring you out,
let you feel us out,
we'll feel you out, give a
lecture, pay you a little
honorarium, treat you
nice, show you the campus,
so you can get a sense of Salt Lake City.
But what it does is,
even if it's just a speaker's series,
it brings in those top people,
who could now be missionaries
for you.
Like, hey, I could send
some students there.
>> Moderator: But, is Utah unionized?
>> No.
>> Moderator: So, it has money, obviously.
>> Everything's relative.
>> Moderator: So what advice
would you give to a school
like Eastern, at this
size, that is unionized?
I think that is part of, I
mean, thank God for the union
anyway, but I think it
has certain protocols.
It hasn't, it's only been--
>> Teacher in Red: The hire
protocols don't come from the
union, they come from the state law.
Those are state law protocols.
>> Many of those state
law protocols are intended
to enhance diversity.
Even though they might
not have that effect.
I think that was their root.
>> Every process is limited
by the weakness of the people
carrying out the process.
>> I was gonna say, that's why
I mentioned at the last M.E.I.
meeting, that I think a
large component of the search
committee members, they're the
ones who, probably not making
the final decisions, but they
are the ones who have to make
the recommendation, and if
they do not strongly make the
recommendation, and what goes
on there, then that's going
to have an impact on the
final three people or whatever
that we recommend.
And I experienced being on
such committee, just last
semester, and how we had
some individuals who came in
and were of color, and kind of,
the language that I kind of
heard coming from some of the
committee members, and
I'm like, it's code for
"I don't know."
Plus it's passionate.
Are you scared of passion?
And that's kind of what
I sensed, and to me--
>> "They don't get our culture here."
That's the one I've heard a lot.
>> So I think that's an
important part of it.
>> Those are gatekeepers.
And the gatekeepers keep
things going status quo.
When I was, soon as I
got my Ph.D. I taught
at Western Illinois.
I was probably only in my second year.
I get a...
email or a call or something
from Western Illinois,
no...
Western Illinois did try to
recruit me there, but there was
another institution out of state.
And they wanted to recruit me
for a position as faculty,
but as department chair.
Now, I'm just starting out.
Assistant professor.
Department chair, and associate professor.
And they kept coming
after me, and I'm like,
"I'm an assistant professor,
a new assistant professor,
"why are they doing this?"
This was in sociology, actually.
And what they were doing was,
they try to get a unqualified
candidate in the pool,
in the short list so,
yeah, this is what I'm figuring out.
'Cause it doesn't make sense.
If I'm two years out, assistant
professor, you want me to be
department chair?
So, I wouldn't get the job, but
I would make the short list.
And they will say, "Well, he
doesn't have the experience,
"but he made it to..."
Why would?
>> Teacher in Red: "We
had a diverse pool."
>> Right, right.
"We had a diverse pool, but
these people were better."
Right, right.
>> Moderator: That is so sinister!
>> So I, I obviously, and
they kept coming after me,
and I turned it down, but
I told one of my mentors,
white male, sociologist,
said, "I should have gone
"and just racked up a bill."
Steaks for everybody!
And then left.
Give 'em a three, four,
five thousand dollar bill,
and then say, "How does
it feel to do that?"
>> Catherine: But then you might feel bad.
>> I wasn't even going to the interview.
No, I wasn't even going to the interview.
I'd just make them pay for a trip.
And rack up a bill and didn't show up.
But I couldn't, I couldn't do that.
>> [Teacher in White] You
wanted to show how disrespectful
they were in asking
you to be a placeholder
so that it looked like
they were successful
and tried hard enough.
>> Right.
That's what it was.
So, obviously, they
didn't want to go after
a real diverse pool of
qualified candidates.
>> Catherine: They were afraid
it might do some real good.
>> Yeah, 'cause if they get
somebody in there, then it might
change things, and then those
people who aren't part of the
choir will start to feel
uncomfortable about their behaviors
and that's really what it boils down to.
"If we diversify, now I've
gotta watch what I say and watch
"what I do."
Actually, there was a faculty
member here, and I won't
mention his name, I won't
even mention the department.
When I was in my master's
program, we were pretty close.
White male.
And his wife was black.
And he would not bring
her to department socials.
Because he knew, or learned
quickly, the racism within
the department.
And he would tell me they
would talk about, "We don't
"want too many black students
in here, it's gonna ghettoize
"the department and lower our stature."
And those type of things.
And he couldn't believe it.
I mean, he was trying to get out of there.
He actually did leave.
But he finally brought his wife around,
and they were shocked.
And all of a sudden he was ostracized.
So, when I was working
my masters, I worked at
admissions here.
So...
it was that kind of relationship
I had with him and others
that, on the administrative level...
>> It's really hard hearing these stories.
I'm an idealist.
I try to idealize this
wonderful world, and I know
just a couple of people are
like that, but it just seems
so pervasive.
I don't know.
I'm just saying it's really
hard to hear your stories.
>> But, you know, as a social
scientist, I'm interested
in people, and ideologies,
and everything else.
But one thing about this current
presidential campaign,
and I don't care what politics you have,
but you can see that what we
thought were on the fringes
aren't really on the fringes.
So a lot of these Trump supporters?
If you're a Trump supporter, I'm sorry.
I'm sorry.
(laughter)
But as a social scientist,
when you look at it,
it's shocked many white social scientists.
Because they just thought
these was fringe people.
It's not a major part of our population.
But no, it is!
So, the minority
population looks like this.
Who are forward thinkers,
social justice minded,
want that kind of utopia,
but it's not the majority.
And that's the wake-up call we're getting.
That, you know, if you're
gonna build gates and send
people, and disrespect
other people's gender
or ethnicity publicly
and you get applauded...
that's a dangerous,
dangerous space to be in.
And so, if that's dry wood,
what's gonna be that match
that makes it all blow up?
And that's the kind of
scary time we're in.
And particularly, when
you throw in economics
or what you're dealing with?
Oh my Lord, that is...
when you mess with people's
money and livelihood,
that hurts.
That ugliness of society
comes out in those times.
>> Can I ask a question?
You started by saying,
"speaking to the choir,"
and you spoke about
wanting to be in the choir,
and I think everyone
here does, and worrying
that we're not, and trying to be, right?
But, the fact of the
matter is we need our choir
to be bigger.
And so, the people, like
you said, some people
get it, some people don't get it.
Sometimes, from my position
of white privilege, the part
of racial fatigue that I see a lot of
is the fatigue of trying
to get people to get it.
You know what I mean?
I feel like we keep saying
the same things over
and over again, and we
say 'em here, and we're
all nodding and stuff, right?
But then, when we go say
them at other places,
department, I mean, I'm not
talking about my neighbor
with the Confederate flag,
which I do have one, but,
I'm talking about campus things,
but the people who wouldn't show up here.
Do you have any magic wand
to get people to get it?
>> Students.
Students are the magic wand.
Because this group existed 20
years ago, different makeup.
This group existed 40 years
ago, different makeup.
Saying the same thing.
So, if we look at the concerns
of faculty 40 years ago,
and students 40 years ago,
and they haven't changed,
that means the institution
isn't interested in changing.
The only time it changes, it
doesn't come from faculty,
it comes from students.
Mizzou got a president fired.
Students got on board, just
like they did in the '60s,
like they did in the '70s,
like they did in the '80s,
around apartheid, students lead that.
Faculty came and supported.
Institutional change happened.
So, once students are
ignited, and they say, "No.
"We want a more diverse faculty.
"We want a more diverse
learning experience.
"We want to hold our white
faculty accountable for being
"the best, culturally
competent people out there,
"who get it, who aren't afraid
to say, 'white privilege.'"
That's who we want.
That's when institutions start to change.
>> Teacher in Red: That's the best answer
I've ever heard to that question.
Thank you so much.
No, really, you just gave me so much hope.
>> Moderator: Maybe,
in one way it's changed
because we have two deans
here, so it's not just
faculty, and I know we
have Richard and maybe
a future dean here.
>> I want the email!
>> But, yeah, I think it is
something that has to happen
in a multi-pronged way, but
it is great when it's a grass
roots, from the students.
But I think getting the students to care,
especially our white students to care,
is, to me, a bit of a challenge.
Except in these different
pockets, and a lot of the
humanities, and I mean, it'll
be interesting to see who
comes out tomorrow at the rally at 4:00,
the EIU rally.
Because that...
I think some of the issues are connected.
This is not a rich school,
and a lot of our
students, I mean, I'm not
even, a lot of our students are
running as fast as they can,
I mean, white and black.
They're working 40-hour jobs,
they're involved in all their service
and sororities, or
fraternities, athletics,
and they can hardly breathe, and let alone
think about mobilizing.
I mean, I've had a good talk
with my class last night,
about a lot of issues, but
it'll be interesting to see
how many show up.
>> And yet, two years ago,
after things happened in our
community against our
black students, in a week,
in a week, they organized a
500-person town hall meeting
in one of our buildings.
The students did that.
And they had people there,
they had overflow, we had
to close circuit it so
everybody could see what
was going on, I mean, it
was really an amazing thing.
And so, yes, they are
doing, and the same students
who organized that, who are
still here are feeling fatigue.
Because when I go to them
and say, "Hey, we're going
"to do this, do you want to
be part of it," they say,
geez, just don't ask us anymore.
You know?
They're fatigued.
They're fatigued as well.
>> Moderator: And the staff
who are part of it too,
are fatigued.
>> Absolutely.
But they did do that, and so,
I keep trying to think about ways that...
there are places, it feels
to me like there are places
where I can do more to
help relieve their fatigue
so when something big happens,
they're not so fatigued
that they can't do that
again, because they're gonna
need it, you know?
Can I help them with their
reserves somehow so that they
have them when they need them?
>> I think one of the
things, like, at Utah,
we have ethnic studies, and we have,
now it's gender studies, it
used to be women's studies.
And what we're doing, we're
moving towards a school
of cultural and performative justice.
And so we'll be two
divisions under the school.
And so, no longer dependent
upon hiring from other
departments, right?
Even though I have a joint
appointment, I'll keep my
joint appointment, but
new faculty members can be
brought into those divisions,
and we don't have to worry
about what sociology or
English or whatever says.
>> Moderator: What college are they under?
Do you have advisory colleges?
>> We are, but right now,
ethnic studies reports to the
Associate Vice President
of Diversity and Equity.
So we'll still report to that
person as like, the dean.
And so, we'll have
department chairs still.
But, what happens is...
now I forgot the point I was
trying to connect to what
you said.
>> Teacher in Red: To help
the fatigue for the students.
>> Oh.
Well, one of the things, when
gender studies and ethnic
studies come together,
when you have conversations
out there where you talk
about white privilege.
What we can't do, is we can't
underestimate white students'
willingness, not all, but a
significant number of white
students' willingness to
support social justice.
In every social movement,
there were a critical number
of white students who joined,
I mean, Students for a
Democratic Society in the '60s,
so you can't have a social
change at University of Michigan
in the '60s without white student allies.
So when you recognize our
history, and you know what has
happened with social change
and an empowering of students,
then that's your magic wand,
and then faculty members coming
on to support them, that's
when things happen, but we have
to be having those
conversations so students will
have the language.
When I was a psychology
student here, we didn't
have the language.
All we had was black power.
And had our afros and stuff like that.
And we knew this one, I
can't remember her name,
but she's a psychologist,
and we knew there was a
certain part of her lecture,
she was gonna talk about
cultural deficiency among blacks.
And Ebonics and all this other stuff.
So basically that blacks
were culturally, genetically
inferior to whites.
We knew that she was gonna
say it, but all we could
do is march out of the
room with some white allies
and protest.
But we didn't know about
the Association of Black
Psychologists, who could
have helped with information.
We had no black psychologists
in the psychology department,
so there was no one to turn to.
And at that time, there
should have been even white
professors who said, "Look,
she's a little crazy" and behind
the, that wasn't behind the
times, that was the times.
But there were progressive
psychologists as well.
We had nobody to turn to.
But now, we're not in that era.
So we have to have voices
where we talk about white
privilege, or we talk about
institutionalized racism,
or we talk about sexism, or we talk
about racial battle fatigue.
When those things come out
your mouth, now people have
a language and say, "Okay,
now I recognize this."
Even students of color.
We have a diversity
scholars program at Utah.
And much of the first
year program talks about
racial microaggressions and this...
You would imagine, some of them wonder,
"I don't believe it, it's not part of..."
Because they were tokens
from Utah, many of them.
So they were treated special,
they were the only one.
But then, once they got to
campus, stuff started changing.
And so, once they started
seeing stuff change, now it's
like, "I'm feeling this."
So I have one Latino male who just,
"I'm not believing this,"
at the beginning of the semester.
By the end, he had a conversion.
And a black male too, highly
conservative black male.
Wanted to say, "No, race is not
a factor, blah, blah, blah,"
and when we started talking
about racial microaggressions,
and a checklist, you'll see
some of those who come to my
talk, you'll see some of those
things, he started looking at
his world differently,
like, "I'm experiencing
"all of these."
And so, at the end of the
semester, he said that that was
my biggest transformation,
and everybody in the class
knew that wherever they were,
he was on the opposite side.
He was, that black man was
the most conservative on race.
So, we need these spaces of
communication and open dialogue.
Particularly among ethnic studies
and gender studies because
we know that these are among
the two most vulnerable
programs at the university.
So, and crises like what you're
going through tell you who
is more respected than the other.
Who's the favorite child.
And who's the least favorite child.
Least favorite child gets cut.
And you know, what's going on,
if you really look at this,
and socially, sociopolitical aspect,
if you look at the makeup
of the students at Eastern,
Chicago State, and somebody
said, I think you said that
we're having more working
class, first generation students
come here, they know that.
They know who's the working
class, first generation
student, who's the
historically black school,
Chicago State, cut, cut, cut, cut.
So the most privileged kids are safe.
>> Teacher in Red: Governor's
state institutions.
>> Now what's happening there?
>> In the Board of Governors, rather.
The Board of Governors' institutions.
Those five.
>> I worked at Governors'
State for a while.
>> I haven't heard anything
about Governors' State in this
crisis except that they're
in the same boat, I'm sure,
as the rest of us.
I haven't heard anything.
>> They used to always
have a older population.
Is it still just junior,
senior, grad school.
>> They're now full-category.
Just recently.
>> But I also think they have
a lot of what we used to call
non-traditionally educated students.
>> Post-traditional.
>> Post-traditional, is
that what we're saying now?
I knew you would know it.
>> They were considered one of the early
schools without walls.
Information should be free and flowing.
So you go there, you can hear
stuff from other classes.
Now if you got ADD, then
that might be a problem.
Which most people do.
Undiagnosed.
And most artists do.
>> This has been a fantastic conversation.
We're getting to it, but I'm going to be,
I think your talk is in the ballroom?
The Grand Ballroom?
So I'm definitely going to
send out word to the faculty
that they need to be there for this, too.
I mean, we did publicize this,
but we will definitely get
the word out for this, and
please, everybody else,
spread the word.
This was very powerful, very important.
Thank you so much.
Anybody can stay as long
as they want, but we don't
want to keep you.
You have a big two days ahead of you.
>> I'm even in a class, I'll
go all the way to some class
this afternoon, some graduate course.
But one of the things I don't
like doing is, I was at Duke
last month, or a few months
ago, wherever I go, if you're
gonna take the time to
say you want me to come,
and you're gonna give me
an honorarium, I'm not one
of those people that wants
to come and just take the
money and run.
I'm-a do is, you got me.
>> I was just gonna say,
steaks for everybody!
(laughter)
We're very fortunate to have you here.
Thanks.
>> Thank you.
Thank you.
