FEMALE SPEAKER: Hi, everyone.
Welcome to Talks at Google.
Today it is my pleasure
to welcome Jim Butcher
for "The Aeronaut's Windlass."
[APPLAUSE]
Jim, welcome to Google.
JIM BUTCHER: Thank
you very much.
FEMALE SPEAKER: Thank you
for us being your first tech
stop ever, not bookstore.
Can you tell us about the book?
JIM BUTCHER: It's
a steampunk novel.
When I first started
pitching it I
tried to tell people that it's
sort of X-Men meets Hornblower.
But then I decided that wasn't
steampunky enough, so from then
on I said it's "League of
Extraordinary Gentlemen"
meets Hornblower.
It's set in a world where
the surface of the world
is very dangerous,
and so everybody lives
in these enormous
black obsidian spires
that were built many,
many, many moons ago.
And all contact between the
spires is done by airship.
All diplomacy, all
trade, all everything
is done by airship
from spire to spire.
Two of the more powerful
spires in this world
are in the opening stages of
going to war with one another,
and the monarch of
a local spire has
decided that he needs
an action team to help
better position his spire
before the war gets started.
So he goes out and
recruits a pirate
and a princess and a wizard.
There's a checklist.
[LAUGH] I don't
make up these rules.
And a warrior and a girl
who can talk to cats.
Plus her cat.
Although it's not really as much
her cat is as she's his human.
He gets this group together
and sends them off on a mission
to find a traitor
within their own midst
before something totally
horrible happens.
And then totally horrible things
happen, and adventure ensues.
That's the first book as
we get to meet these people
and see the kind
of world they're in
and then throw them
into hideous danger
against horrible monsters
and evil opponents
and not-so-evil opponents.
I had a whole lot
of fun writing it.
It's one of the things
I've had a better
time writing than many
other projects I've done.
Also, it's the longest
book I've ever written.
It checked in at
over 200,000 words.
It's a falling hazard to
children and small animals.
If you get the book,
be careful with that.
FEMALE SPEAKER: I'd love to know
what some of your inspirations
were for it.
It felt like this
hybrid between a world
where there's magic,
much like Dresden Files,
but it's also this sort of
nobility-based oligarchy
situation.
JIM BUTCHER: Not "Star Wars."
Definitely not "Star Wars."
FEMALE SPEAKER: Never.
JIM BUTCHER: Really,
the heaviest influence
probably came from the
nautical hero novel.
You start with Hornblower--
that was Forester,
I believe-- and then
the Jack Aubrey books
that were the ones that were
published in the '90s, the ones
they made "Master and
Commander" off of.
"Master and Commander"
was my background movie
for while I was
writing this series.
Those and then David Weber's
Honor Harrington books,
which also came from
that same source,
was also partially
an inspiration.
And, because my brain is
not working right now,
"20,000 Leagues Under the Sea."
That's my strongest direct
steampunk influence,
although that was just
science fiction at the time.
They didn't know to
call it steampunk.
I actually don't think
it's a steampunk novel.
I wanted to call
it a steam opera,
because it's like space
opera, but it's not.
It's airships.
And so I wanted to
call it steam opera.
My editor was like
"Jim, you can't just
go inventing genres like that."
And I was like "Oh."
But maybe if the series
gets enough oomph,
maybe there'll be a new genre.
That would be cool.
FEMALE SPEAKER: You
can be a pioneer.
JIM BUTCHER: Yeah.
Yeah.
FEMALE SPEAKER: It's interesting
that you mentioned nautical.
They're in the air,
but it felt very naval.
Did you do a lot of
research into that?
Having read the "Master
and Commander" and Horatio
Hornblower books, I felt
like I was reading that,
but at the same time, they're
soaring through the air.
JIM BUTCHER: I was doing
a whole lot of research,
and then I finally realized
that I was researching
the wrong place,
because I really
need to be researching
ballooning and blimp
stuff, the blimp stuff from
World War I especially,
to find out more things
about was going on.
I did get into
nautical research.
And let me tell you--
this is what I learned
about nautical research.
There is a name for everything,
and it makes no sense at all.
But you had to have a specific
name for every little rope
and every little stay
where the rope was tied off
and anything the
rope was attached to.
They all had to have these
very specific names so that
in the middle of a
crisis situation,
somebody who was an officer
could look at you and say,
"You!
Something something
the mizzen bowsprit!"
And you would know
exactly what had
to be done, because
otherwise you might all die.
It was a very, technical,
very focused language
for when you were working
on one of these ships.
And if you didn't know
it, you were a threat
to everybody else,
because you needed
to be able to do everything.
Yes.
There was so much research.
And I still need to
do more, because it's
going to get more involved
as the series goes on,
because that's what series
do, from everything I've seen.
I'm actually going to have
to get down to San Diego
and go hang out on the tall
ships that are in the harbor
there and ask a lot of questions
and write a lot of things down.
FEMALE SPEAKER: Sounds like
a terrible, terrible research
experience.
JIM BUTCHER: I know!
It'll be so awful!
FEMALE SPEAKER: Is it
easier, in a case like that,
to then just use our real-world
terminology for that,
or would you rather create
your own in this scenario?
JIM BUTCHER: I like to use
real-world terminology whenever
I can, because when
I'm writing, I'm
doing the absolute best I
can to make the language as
transparent as possible, so
that when you're reading,
you forget that
you're reading words,
and you're just watching
the movie that is playing
on the screen in your head.
I try and do everything I can to
keep my language from intruding
on the story that's happening,
which is why, I think,
I write at about an eighth-grade
reading level, on average--
because I don't want
the words to get
in the way of the
experience for the reader.
Books, I think, are the
first virtual reality.
And I invest very heavily
in that idea in the way
I've put together
my writing style.
FEMALE SPEAKER: What's
something about this book
that you learned from
your previous series
that you enjoy being able
to explore in this series?
What limitations
were removed for you
from getting to start afresh?
JIM BUTCHER: The Alera
books were the other books
that I wrote before this,
and they were, similarly,
third-person, multiple
viewpoint characters.
And the pace for those
books was a little bit slow,
because they happened over
a broader span of time,
for the most part, then when
compared to the Dresden Files.
When I write the Dresden
Files, basically I'm
writing about Harry Dresden's
worst weekend of the year.
And so all the
story that happens
has to happen in this very
little compressed space.
I decided I wanted to try
and do that with this book
as well, only from multiple
character viewpoints.
The events of the story happen
in that same compressed space,
but we see it from several
different points of view.
When you've got that,
then the question
becomes where do
I put the camera
for this particular scene?
Which character is
best going to show you
know the events of this action?
Which character is best
going to be involved in them?
Which is the one that's
going to help the reader best
understand what's going on?
Because I'll know what's going
on in this airship battle,
but if I just write paragraphs
and paragraphs of airship
battle, the reader
isn't necessarily
going to know what's going on.
So it's like OK, for
this fight, we're
going to go over to this
character, who's never been
on an airship
before, and yet who
is bossy enough
to demand answers
to questions from people
who have better things
to be doing so that the reader
will get what's going on,
because the characters who
know will be explaining it
to this dummy.
It's a concept called the joy
of idiocy in writing craft.
You always keep an idiot
around to ask questions
as a surrogate for the reader,
so that-- hopefully-- the idiot
asks the questions that
the reader wants answered,
and then the reader gets to know
the answers without ever having
to admit that they didn't know.
That's one of the
fun things you get
to play with when you've
got multiple viewpoints.
FEMALE SPEAKER: Thank
you for providing us all
with very interesting idiots.
As you said, it was a
great, awesome experience
to have these
multiple viewpoints.
And one thing I loved
about this particular book
is that you have a bunch
of wonderful women in it.
It's, I think, at least
an even match-up of female
protagonists to male, and
there's this whole range
on both genders.
Where were some
of the inspiration
for those characters?
JIM BUTCHER: Some of them?
I was writing, and
there they were.
Bridget certainly
emerged that way.
Gwen was a character
who actually
emerged from a roleplaying
game that I was
running in this story world.
That's how I do my research
for my story worlds.
I'll get something
built, and then I'll
run a roleplaying
game in the world.
That's always wonderful,
because when I do that,
the players can never
do anything right.
You can write any
script you want
for the players-- they aren't
going to follow that script.
They're going to
break it somehow.
And then you find you
find yourself frantically
building the world six
inches in front of their feet
as they are stopping off in
the completely wrong direction.
It's a good exercise
in creativity,
and it really helps me flesh
out things as I'm going along.
She came from one
of the players.
I knew what I wanted
my villain to be like.
I knew I wanted my villain
to be evil Mary Poppins.
And she kind of is.
She's this very proper
person, and she can't kill you
as long as you're being polite.
But she just waits for you
to make a slip in etiquette,
and then she can
tear your eyes out.
A little bit of pressure.
FEMALE SPEAKER: It's every
Catholic schoolchild's worst
nightmare.
There's one very unique
character who I very much
enjoyed, and that is Rowl.
You wrote a cat who talks.
You wrote people
who talk to cats.
What up with that?
JIM BUTCHER: I wanted cats,
and I wanted talking cats.
And I was thinking I
wanted to establish
this race of
intelligent cats that
live alongside humanity,
not with humanity
in a pet situation, because
that wouldn't really
happen very well.
FEMALE SPEAKER: It's sort of a
pet situation in the other way.
JIM BUTCHER: Yes.
More it works the
other way around.
These cats live alongside the
societies in these spires,
and they live in the
vents and air tunnels
and kill things that come in
there from the surface that
are cat-sized.
Humans don't really like
them, but they can't really
get rid of them,
because they perform
a really useful service.
And they can't
really ignore them,
because the cats have
opposable thumbs and matches.
So in a lot of
ways, for the cats,
it's like oh, I notice your
warehouse is rodent-free.
Perhaps you would like it to
continue to be rodent-free.
Perhaps there will be cream
waiting for us every Thursday
at 3:00.
Really the cats are
this little fuzzy mafia
that exists in an underworld
alongside humanity.
But the cats also can go
everywhere and hear everything
and learn everything,
because they're quiet,
and they're smart, and
they have excellent senses.
And the lord of the
spire, the spirarch,
figures out that wait-- these
cats are really, really useful.
We probably shouldn't just
treat them like vermin.
I need every
advantage I can get.
And so he recruits somebody
who's friends with a cat.
Her father runs a vattery,
which is where they grow meat
in vats inside these spires.
Basically, she works
in a butcher shop.
They have a deal
with the local cats.
She made friends with one
when she was very small.
The cat named her Little Mouse.
She's about six-two.
The cat named her Little
Mouse, and then she
grew up much larger than she
had been when he first met her,
which offended him greatly.
He hangs out with her.
So Rowl and Bridget are a team.
Rowl taught Bridget
how to speak cat,
and so Bridget can
talk to the cats.
The cats understand English,
except when they don't.
They're the most obnoxious
little characters.
Oh, my gosh!
Honestly, I would like to
think these books will succeed
because it's got
a cool story world
or it's got really
identifiable characters
or it's got great action
or because there's
good plots in them,
but they're going
to succeed because
there's talking cats.
And I've made peace with that.
FEMALE SPEAKER: Opposable
thumbs means signable checks.
JIM BUTCHER: Yes, exactly.
The hard part is not letting
them steal the show from all
the plain old boring humans.
FEMALE SPEAKER: I
was so surprised
to learn that you were not
necessarily a cat person
beforehand.
I'm not a cat person,
but that's what
I imagine cats would sound
like in terms of [INAUDIBLE].
JIM BUTCHER: I wasn't
a cat person myself.
But I knew cat people and
how they think and talk
about their cats.
I've been introduced
to cats for a long time
from the point of view of
those who love them very much.
Now I have cats.
They're not mine.
I got them for my fiancee, and
she named them after the cats
in the books.
They're Maine coons, and they're
kittens, and they're enormous,
and they're adorable.
I'm like go away, cat.
I don't need to like you.
Get out of here.
We have a business relationship.
Go.
And it's like why are you
sitting on my lap and purring?
It's so adorable.
Damn.
FEMALE SPEAKER: You've
sort of touched upon this,
but you said you very much
enjoyed writing these books.
What's something that was
different about writing them
from writing your other ones,
aside from talking cats?
JIM BUTCHER: Right,
aside from talking cats.
I was really working
on trying to make sure
that I had down a
dialogue that didn't quite
sound like regular everyday--
the way people use their speech
patterns.
I was trying for something
a little bit more formal,
a little bit more
archaic-sounding.
I wanted it to feel a little
bit more like "Downton Abby"
without it actually
being that way.
They use the word
"quite" a lot, and so on.
There's a lot of these
conversations that
are very painfully
precise, and nobody
wants to talk about their
actual feelings, and so on.
That was the idea.
There's a scene where everybody
is having tea and maybe getting
ready to murder each
other, and we don't really
know until the tea's done.
That was fun to write.
Now I'm learning about tea.
Now I've been approached
by all these people
who know about tea, so now
I'm learning about tea things.
Apparently you can
have tea duels now.
I don't know how that works,
but they make holsters
with teacups and
saucers on them.
Apparently it's a whole thing.
FEMALE SPEAKER: Like
one, two, three, brew!
JIM BUTCHER: I don't know.
FEMALE SPEAKER: Maybe
you should find out!
JIM BUTCHER: Are you kidding?
I'm not even sure I would
survive the situation.
FEMALE SPEAKER: I'm
curious if there
were any lessons
you learned writing
your previous books that you
were excited to apply to these?
JIM BUTCHER: Maybe.
FEMALE SPEAKER: Don't commit
to a twenty-book series?
JIM BUTCHER: Yeah,
that might be one.
FEMALE SPEAKER: Three.
Three is safe.
JIM BUTCHER: I did.
I've got three books
contracted in this series,
and I've set it up so I can add
it after three or six or nine.
I hope I get to do
the whole thing,
because it's got a
pretty big story,
and I want to tell
the whole thing.
I think it'd be a lot of fun.
I don't know if it will
actually get there.
We'll see how the market
does and how receptive
the audience is and so on.
I'm pretty sure that
people, when they read it,
they're going to
start liking it,
and they'll go
along for the ride,
and they'll want to get
all the way to the end.
But I can't predict that.
You've got to make plans.
So I made plans
on this one rather
than just saying this is
going to be 20 books long.
That was a terrible plan.
There was no way
I was ever going
to be able to sell that
series at 20 books,
but I was too dumb to know
that, so I went and did it.
FEMALE SPEAKER: You do
something interesting.
I'm not sure if you still do
it, but you use beta readers.
JIM BUTCHER: I do.
FEMALE SPEAKER:
Did you use those?
JIM BUTCHER: Oh, absolutely.
In fact, in picking
the project, I
wrote the first 20%, 25%
of four different novels
and presented them
to the beta readers
on at a time to
get their responses
and say here--
what do you think?
Here-- what do you think?
Here-- what do you think?
There was a science
fiction novel,
which was basically
"Men in Black"
on the moon, a couple
hundred years in the future.
There was my Black
Company-esque fantasy novel.
There was a third fantasy novel.
I forget the
details of that one.
It was kind of awful.
And then there was
this steampunk.
The steampunk was the one that
everybody was like oh, my gosh!
I had a stronger
reaction to that
than I've had to anything,
including the Dresden Files,
from the beta readers.
So I'm like, OK-- it looks
I'm writing steampunk now.
I seem to have a
handle on this one.
Let's go.
FEMALE SPEAKER: I
think the beta process
is something we at Google
are pretty familiar with.
Where do you get your
beta readers from?
Are there tiers of betas?
Is it you have a
trusted circle of here's
where you want
your feedback from?
Or is it just you want
a general populace
of people who enjoy your work?
JIM BUTCHER: I've got about
15 people on the beta reading
list.
I've got a waiting
list of beta readers.
But there are times
when I meet somebody
where somebody comes up with
a very incisive question
or makes an observation
that is really sharp
or picks up on a plot point
that I've dropped hints for
but haven't really unveiled
or brought out into the open,
and I'll be like would you
like to be a beta reader?
And you would be surprised--
only about one person in three
who I ask to be a beta reader
actually does it and replies
to things on time and so on.
Most of them just wander off.
I don't know why that is.
It's a creative crowd.
FEMALE SPEAKER: We know
nothing about beta feedback.
[LAUGHTER] I'd love to
know-- in general, who
are some of your influences?
JIM BUTCHER: In general?
FEMALE SPEAKER: In
general-- life, literary.
JIM BUTCHER: Not "Star Wars."
FEMALE SPEAKER: Not "Star Wars."
JIM BUTCHER: The big ones are
probably my dad and my dad
and my mom and my sisters.
My family have been
my biggest influence.
In my first book,
I write a thank-you
to my writing
teacher, who taught
me everything I need
to know about writing
and then to my dad, who
taught me everything
I need to know about living.
My sisters, they took
me to see "Star Wars"
when it first came out.
It's the first movie I
actually remember going to see.
When "Empire Strikes Back" came
out, they came to the school
and lied to my
principal and told him
that I had a dentist
appointment and checked me out
of school and then blindfolded
me and took me down
to the very first premier
of "Empire" in Kansas
City at the big old
grand opry theater
with the big swooping curtains
in front of the screen.
Because they were
cool like that.
And the same for "Return
of the Jedi" and so on.
FEMALE SPEAKER: I think
you owe them forever.
JIM BUTCHER: Yeah, it's true.
I try to pay them back.
When "Return of
the King" came out,
I went and checked my son
out of school-- same thing.
Took him to see the
first showing of "Return
of the King," because there
are some traditions that
are worth preserving.
And all the kids and my
nieces and nephews and my son,
we're all planning on going and
getting my other sister's two
little girls.
She's got twin 8-year-old
girls, and we're
going to go check them
out of school to go
see "Star Wars" in December.
FEMALE SPEAKER: Who will
you be dressing as for that?
JIM BUTCHER: Oh, I've
got a Jedi robe at home.
I'll wear that.
FEMALE SPEAKER: What are
you reading right now?
JIM BUTCHER: Right now?
I just got finished reading
"Tribal Bigfoot," by David
Paulides, for my nonfiction,
which is a book that compiles
Bigfoot sightings and
encounters in connection
with Native Americans.
And then I'm reading the
first Powdermage book,
by Brian McClellan right now.
FEMALE SPEAKER: Does that
nonfiction book have anything
to do with Dresden?
I notice everyone asks.
JIM BUTCHER: No.
I've been fascinated
with Bigfoot
since I was a
small child and had
recurring nightmares about him.
So I've dealt with them
by learning everything
I could about Bigfoot.
FEMALE SPEAKER: Just wondering
about the Native American
spirituality thing.
What books might we be surprised
to find on your shelves?
JIM BUTCHER: Gosh.
I guess I wouldn't be surprised
at anything, because they're
mine.
There would be the old
spread of romance novels
that I read when I was
first getting started
learning writing theory.
I went out and bought a
bunch of different books
by bestselling authors from
a number of different genres
and read them and
tried to identify--
what are the common
factors in these books?
What are the things that
they all have in common?
So there's a bunch of romance
novels and standard mystery
novels.
One of my favourite
is Robert B. Parker,
so there's a ton of Spenser
novels all over my shelves.
A lot of Piers Anthony.
Bad pun novels.
I've loved those.
I don't know who
you'd be surprised
by anything that was there.
If it's science
fiction and there's
a good story or a
cool world or somebody
who writes really fast plots
or really good characters,
then I've got them
up there, and I
am studying them
and trying to steal
everything I can from them.
I mean trying to better
myself as a writer.
FEMALE SPEAKER: Do
you find yourself
able to enjoy science
fiction books?
Or does it hit
too close to home?
Or is it always like a
research project for you?
Or if it's well
written and engaging,
are you just a regular reader?
JIM BUTCHER: It's very
hard to get into that space
where I can disengage my
professional brain from it
and go oh, OK-- where
I'm not breaking down
oh, I can see why
this is so effective.
It's because he did
this here and that here.
When I do get a book
that I can turn it off
and I'm reading along and
going oh, that was awesome--
then I'll be like
wait a minute; you're
too professional to do that.
Shut up!
You can talk to me
later, professional guy.
Those are much rarer--
to find a good book
that I can really enjoy purely
for the sake of enjoying.
There's only a few
writers who do that for me
on a regular basis.
FEMALE SPEAKER:
Can you name them,
or is this a don't
let them know--
don't inflate their egos.
JIM BUTCHER: Oh, no--
Sanderson doesn't have an ego,
I don't think.
He's, like, this
genuinely nice guy.
It's disgusting.
Really.
There's a new Sanderson
book came out here recently,
and I got on the
plane in Chicago
and flew out to San
Francisco and landed,
and he'd written another
book in that time-- I mean,
there it was!
I swear-- he's a
clone or a robot
or has an army of clone robots.
I don't know.
Something like that--
it's impressive.
FEMALE SPEAKER: What type of
readers were you as a child?
What was your favorite?
JIM BUTCHER: "Voracious"
and "indiscriminate"
would be the words I would
say would apply to that.
I started off with the
Chronicles of Narnia
and then Prydain
Chronicles, which are
books that are still excellent.
I still go back and reread
them every couple of years.
They're books by
Lloyd Alexander.
And then after that it was
everything I could find.
One sister got me "The
Lord of the Rings" one year
when I was sick in
first grade, and I
read through "The
Lord of the Rings."
And the other sister
got me the Han Solo
trilogy by Brian Dailey,
that they put out,
and I read through that
one-- just devoured that.
I read every science
fiction and fantasy
book they had in
the school library,
and then I went over to
the nonfiction section,
to mythology, and started
reading all the mythology stuff
and everything they had about
UFOs and Bigfoot-- which
in the '70s was considerable.
From there, it was everything.
I would read adventure
novels, mystery novels--
everything I could
get my hands on.
You know where they
would have the posters,
and they'd put a little
star next your name
for every time you read a book?
My name had stars and then
an attached piece of paper
with more stars, and then
another piece of paper
attached to that
with more stars,
longer than the posterboard was.
In fourth grade, I had a
teacher who made it a policy
to take books away from me
whenever I was reading them
at inappropriate times in class.
And then she had to bring
in and assemble a bookshelf
in her classroom, because
she kept taking books,
and I kept going to get more.
At the end of the
year, we had to have
a hand truck and
a bunch of crates
to bring home all the
books that she had
confiscated from me that year.
The teachers the next year were
going to do the same thing,
and they got to look
at that on the way out,
and they just said
you know what-- he
seems to be getting the lesson.
Maybe we should
just let him read.
They just sat me at the back
so I could read quietly and not
disturb the other children.
FEMALE SPEAKER: You were
educating in a different way.
If you could go back
in time 15 years
and tell yourself
anything, what would it be?
JIM BUTCHER: Oh, god.
What kind of madman are you?
The Temporal Police will get us.
FEMALE SPEAKER: Sports Almanac.
JIM BUTCHER: One, I
don't want to disturb
the time-space continuum,
because that seems
like an unwise thing to do.
Two, it seems like
an unwise thing
to do because I
don't really have
any complaints about the
way the past 15 years
have gone-- at least not
as far as the writing
thing has proceeded.
Sure, there are parts that
could have gone better,
but overall, looking
where I am now,
I'd be crazy to go back
and try to rock the boat.
That seems like quite
a terrible idea to me.
I'm at a point in my career now
where I can write what I want
and have a reasonably
good chance of having
somebody publish it for me.
I've got to turn down work.
I've got a bunch of
problems with my career,
but they're really
awesome problems,
like my hand hurts from
signing too many books.
That is great.
It's also terrible, because
my freaking arm hurts.
But at the same time, if
you're going to have a problem,
that is a pretty cool problem.
I kind of dig that.
Yeah, I don't want
to change anything.
I'm pleased with how it's gone.
FEMALE SPEAKER:
That's wonderful.
Are there any genres you'd like
to dive into that you haven't
explored yet?
JIM BUTCHER: I still want
to do science fiction.
The answer is yes-- all of them.
I still want to do science
fiction I haven't gotten to.
I'm going to write an epic,
epic, epic fantasy epic one
day, and it will be epic.
Be a big old honking doorstop--
elves, dwarves, and hobbits.
They won't look like elves,
dwarves, and hobbits,
because I'll have painted
them and filed off
the serial numbers.
But it'll be elves,
dwarves, and hobbits.
But yeah.
I want to do my big old doorstop
fantasy one of these days.
The Dresden Files started
off as this side thing
that I was doing as a project
to prove to my writing teacher
how wrong she was.
But I wanted to write
swords and horses.
Fantasy's what I wanted.
FEMALE SPEAKER: Have you spoken
to that writing teacher since?
JIM BUTCHER: Yes, actually.
Many times.
Actually, she wrote
me a couple years ago
and said, "Hey,
do you think I can
pay you to write a foreword
to my story craft book
that I'm going to be
sending out to publish?"
And I was like no, you can't
pay me to write that foreword.
So I wrote up wrote
up a foreword for her,
because she wound up
teaching me a whole lot,
and I knew a whole lot
less than I thought I did.
She was a wonderful teacher.
FEMALE SPEAKER: You have
some pretty engaged fans.
What's one of your most
interesting fan interactions?
JIM BUTCHER: Interesting
fan interactions.
FEMALE SPEAKER: Unique
fan interactions?
JIM BUTCHER: Well, I
got engaged to one.
FEMALE SPEAKER: So
that was a unique one.
JIM BUTCHER: Yeah, it
was kind of unique.
I met her in an autograph
line a couple years ago
and worked up the courage
to speak to her on Facebook
about six months later, because
she's pretty and a girl,
and I can't just go talk to her.
Yeah.
It doesn't change.
You can take the nerd
out of the school,
but it doesn't come out.
It doesn't wash clear.
I've had fans who showed up at
my house to get an autograph,
who road tripped to my
house from Norman, Oklahoma,
in Independence, Missouri,
and knocked on my door
and asked for an autograph.
That was a little
disturbing, actually.
FEMALE SPEAKER: We're
not encouraging that.
JIM BUTCHER: The ironic
thing was I wasn't at home.
I was out of town
in Norman, Oklahoma,
attending a friend's wedding.
And so they'd driven all
that way for nothing.
I felt kind of bad for them.
There's been all
kinds of things.
If you're worried about
talking to me or seeming weird
or something like
that, the bar you
have to clear to not be
all that weird is very low.
So don't worry about it.
It's cool.
FEMALE SPEAKER: This is
unrelated to anything,
but I said I said I'd ask you--
what's your favorite cosplay?
JIM BUTCHER: My
favorite cosplay?
The favorite one I've
done lately is me
and Katie have done
Gomez and Morticia.
And that's been a
whole lot of fun,
because you're cosplaying Gomez.
The way you sell that
is with the crazy eyes.
You have to have the
smile and the crazy eyes,
like maybe about to come
knife you-- hahahahaha!
And then it works out.
And at Dragoncon-- this was
well before the steampunk book
came out-- a bunch of my friends
wanted to cosplay the steampunk
characters.
I'm like you bunch of hipsters.
One did, "I'm dressed as
a character from a book.
You probably haven't read it."
Of course not!
Because it hasn't
been published yet.
Aw, you guys.
You're horrible
with your privilege.
FEMALE SPEAKER: We'll take
audience questions in a moment
if anyone wants to line up.
He said you can ask
questions, guys.
What's one technology or power
from this book, "The Aeronaut's
Windlass," that
you wish you had?
JIM BUTCHER: They have guns, but
guns are really risky to use,
so they use gauntlets--
which are basically
Tony Stark Iron Man gauntlets,
only way steampunkier.
There's a crystal up
against your palm,
and it's connected by wires
to a cage of copper wire
that goes around your
forearm, and you've
got to wear leather
underneath it,
because the wire heats up
after you use it for a while.
You get a blast away
like this at people,
and that would be awesome.
Not like I want
to murder people.
I just want to be able to have
that option available to me.
That would be totally cool.
FEMALE SPEAKER: There's other
uses-- demolition, you know.
And then my last
question for you
is if you could live in
one of the worlds in any
of your series that you've
written so far, which would it
be?
JIM BUTCHER: If I could
live in one of the worlds--
I wouldn't want to live
in any of those places!
Oh my gosh!
FEMALE SPEAKER: If you had
to live in one of the worlds?
JIM BUTCHER: OK, if
I had to live in one.
Dresden Files Chicago, I guess.
I would go there.
I would go there, and I
would buy some apartment
to live in that Harry never
goes near, hardly ever sees.
And I would stay real
low the entire time.
AUDIENCE: Hi.
JIM BUTCHER: Hi!
AUDIENCE: You've talked
about the Dresden Files
and getting started with that.
I think I've read what you
just said about how it started
as a prove-your-point-type
piece.
I've read through them all and
recommended them to friends,
and they say, "OK,
but the first two,
they seem a little like you're
not knowing where you're going,
and "Summer Knight"
happens, about book 3 or 4,
and it seems to gel,
and all of a sudden
there's this major arc.
Is that a correct assessment?
Or is that incorrect?
At what point did
you have that big arc
that you're building now?
And I hope I'm not offending
you by that comment.
JIM BUTCHER: No, not at all.
When I first wrote the
first Dresden Files book,
I turned in the first
couple of chapters,
and my teacher looked at it
and looked up at me and said,
"You did it."
And I said, "What?"
She says, "You did it.
This is of professional quality.
I don't know if this will
be the first thing you sell,
but you'll be able
to sell this."
And I was just like-- uhhhh.
And she said, "You're
going to need to plan out
the rest of it, OK?"
And she was talking about
the rest of the novel.
[LAUGHTER]
But I came running back into
conference the next week
and was like OK, here--
I've got this planned out.
I've got this whole
thing planned out.
It's going to be about 20
books, maybe 21-- I'm not sure
if I get them all
in in that time--
and then there's going to be
a big old three-book trilogy
at the end that kind of
capstones the entire thing.
What do you think?
And she just kind of
looks at me the way
the Road Runner looks
at Wile E Coyote
as he's charging off a cliff.
I can still see the expression
on her face in my memory,
because I can tell that
she had finally got me
on board with what she
was trying to teach me,
so she didn't want to
quash my enthusiasm.
But at the same time,
there was no way
I was going to sell a 20-book
series to any publisher
anywhere.
So she had to give me an
answer that would not dissuade
me and not crush my enthusiasm.
And so she just looks
at me and says, "Well, I
think if you sell
a 20-book series,
yeah-- you should
be doing fine."
You know-- like that.
So I had an idea
what I wanted to do,
but I wasn't very good at
putting the story together
and dropping things
out ahead of time.
As I have continued
writing, I've
learned to trust the
readers a whole lot more.
Readers are smart.
And so when I first started
setting up the story,
I was only dropping one
or two little things
in that were going to
come into in the long haul
and otherwise trying to focus on
Harry's immediate surroundings,
basically.
Then I realized-- wait a minute.
Readers are much better
at putting this together
than I ever thought they were.
So I started incorporating
more and more
and being able to bring in more
subplots and more characters--
more plans for the future,
more payoff from the past.
Because I'm writing
for people like me.
I'm writing for nerds.
Nerds are smart.
They can work this stuff out.
So I sat down and
started doing that.
And as I learned to
trust the audience more,
I think the books got better,
because the audience was
able to grab them grab onto
them and enjoy it more.
AUDIENCE: Hi.
JIM BUTCHER: Hi!
AUDIENCE: Love the
Dresden Files, the arc,
the little bits that
you drop here and there
and the payoffs later on
and those sorts of things.
I normally wouldn't ask this,
but it's driving me nuts.
Every time a new
one comes out, I
find myself rereading the
whole Dresden Files up to it.
I take notes in
the side and all.
In "Proven Guilty," when
Harry is driving back,
he gets hit by a drive-by,
and there's some hints,
and that never gets
resolved in that book,
and I haven't seen
a resolution soon.
Is that at all going
to be resolved?
JIM BUTCHER: Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Weird, right?
Cool.
AUDIENCE: Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
JIM BUTCHER: Like I
said, the audience
can pick these things up.
There's a lot of little
stuff like that that's
been seeded through, actually,
and that will get answered
eventually and hasn't been yet.
And that's cool.
It'll be more fun later.
AUDIENCE: What roleplaying
system are you using?
How do your roleplaying
games differ
from how your plots
ensue in a novel?
And can I buy the Evil
Hat version of "Windlass"?
JIM BUTCHER: We don't have
a deal with Evil Hat yet.
I think they're trying to do
the Dresden collectible card
game first.
So there's that question.
I'm answering in
reverse order here.
How does my roleplaying
differ from my book writing?
Not significantly.
I tend to cliffhang
every play session, just
like I do chapters, to
where the players are going,
"We're going to stop there?"
I like doing that.
I like to torture the
players and to bring up
the things that are just the
absolute wrong worst thing
for them at the time.
They like it.
As far as game systems, I
ran the Cinder Spire stuff
with Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay.
Right now, I'm
playing Pathfinder,
because I realized that my son
had reached 21 years of age
and had never played
Dungeons & Dragons.
Every other roleplaying
game under the sun,
but never D&D. Except
I went out and got D&D,
and D&D was fourth edition,
so it wasn't D&D any more,
so I went got Pathfinder.
And then I went and got the
Keep on the Borderlands,
because that's where
you start playing D&D.
Only I set it during
a zombie apocalypse,
so the keep on the borderlands
was the only human stronghold
that was left, but in
order to be allowed inside,
they had to agree to be on
the expeditionary force.
And the expeditionary force got
sent off to the Caves of Chaos
to see if they could make an
alliance with the greenskins
against the zombies.
So the Caves of Chaos as
a diplomatic mission--
that was awesome.
We had so much fun playing that.
Whatever system comes by.
I want to run something in fifth
edition now that it's come out.
That looks pretty cool.
You're very welcome.
FEMALE SPEAKER:
When you play D&D,
do you DM, or do you
play as one of players?
JIM BUTCHER: I mostly DM.
When I play, I get so
bored with my character
that I will either get heroic
or stupid about every two weeks
so I can get a new character.
And at some point,
my GMs have just
gone "Jim, just switch
to a different character,
and we'll just pretend that this
guy hopped out of a backpack.
OK?"
FEMALE SPEAKER: It's magic!
JIM BUTCHER: "That's
how it's going to be.
Because you're really
stretching far to get
killed at dinner in
the friendly convent."
AUDIENCE: Thank you so much
for coming and speaking.
One of Harry's caches, I guess,
in the beginning of the series
is because of his magic, he
can't be anywhere near tech.
He has to take cold showers.
He basically lives this
aesthete life in a basement.
As a writer, how does your
relationship with technology
change the way that you write?
JIM BUTCHER: How does my
relationship with technology
change the way that I write?
The biggest influence
that it's had on it
is when I first started
writing the Dresden Files,
I was a college student with no
money, so research for Chicago
was basically me buying a
couple of Chicago guidebooks
and learning what I could
about Chicago from that.
I didn't know anybody
who lived there.
I didn't have enough
money to go there.
So my research had
to come from whatever
I could find in a book.
Fast-forward a couple
years, and the Internet
is up and running
on a regular basis
that everybody can
get to, and people
are able to take
digital pictures
on their digital camera and then
upload them to the Internet.
That was new.
And so I would be
able to say to people
who had read a couple
of my books, "Hey,
I need to know what the east
wall of Graceland Cemetery
looks like."
And I would send that
out to this list of folks
who lived in Chicago,
and I would get a reply--
"I drive by there on the
way to work every morning.
I'll take a picture
of it for you."
And lo and behold-- by noon
I'd know what it looked like,
and I could write it.
That was amazing.
And then later came you
guys-- came Google and Google
Maps and Google Street View.
So then I would go Google
Street View everything.
I would use it and
set up my scenes
by standing on the street
and looking around and being
able to visually see everything
in the relationship of where
all the objects were to
one another-- to the point
that a couple years ago, I had
a Chicago SWAT captain come up
to me and say, "You know
that scene you set up
where you had the
shooter on the roof
and he took out a
number of street lights
so there was only one approach,
so that he could control
this hostage situation?"
I'm like yeah.
He's like, "I
really need to know
who you talked to
get that information,
because we like to
keep track of people
who know that kind of thing."
And I had to look
at him and say,
"I just used what I knew from
Call of Duty and Google Street
View."
And he just looks at me.
I swear he aged five years,
just right during the time
of that sentence.
Then he shakes his head
and he's like, "Oh, man, I
hate the Internet."
But then there's all the
marketing aspects and so on,
too.
Because I can communicate
with my fans and readers
all the time.
I can get feedback
directly from them.
All my beta reading
is on an email list
that I sign people up for.
I couldn't do it
without the Internet.
And when I don't have the
Internet, I get twitchy.
That happens,
occasionally, and I scream.
I run around.
I don't know what
to do any more.
I need my Internet.
AUDIENCE: Thanks.
JIM BUTCHER: You're
very welcome.
Hello!
AUDIENCE: Generally, when
authors have their books turned
into TV or movies, they're
given complete control
over how to cash the
check, and that's it.
I thought the Dresden
TV was done fairly well,
given your restrictions.
What did you think about it?
What would you have changed?
What might you do
differently if you could?
JIM BUTCHER: I've always been
a glass-half-full kind of guy,
so I like to think that the
TV series died before it could
mess anything up too horribly.
And so that's good.
And it also introduced
a lot of people
to the books, which
is also very good.
Now, I think, if I
wanted to do it again--
and it's a possibility
that it will happen again,
because the rights are
out with a major company--
if it does happen
again, this time,
I've attached myself to
the property in terms
of I want to be a consultant.
Not so that I can make it
exactly like my books--
because I know it has
to change a bit when
it goes to a different
medium-- but so that we
can keep the same spirit of
awesome, the flavor of awesome
that I like, in
the Dresden Files
and to continue
using it elsewhere.
All in all, I had no contractual
authority on my stuff, at all,
when it went there.
But I had friends on
the Internet and readers
on the Internet
who worked out who
was going to be in
charge of the project
by putting together rumors and
then talked to me and said,
"We think it's going to be
this guy-- Robert Wolfe."
And I'm like, "Robert Wolfe?
I loved the first couple seasons
of 'Andromeda.'" And so I
contacted Robert Wolfe and said
I suspect because of this fact
and this fact that you're the
one who's going to be in charge
of this.
He's like, "That's amazing!
You're like a
real-life detective!"
And I'm like yes, I am.
AUDIENCE: With magical powers!
JIM BUTCHER: It turns
out that he's a D&D nerd,
and we're both
Roman Empire buffs,
so we sat down and
talked about it.
And we got along really well.
So I actually had a
lot more influence
than you would
think over the show,
because I got on so
well with Robert.
I was very fortunate in that.
But that was purely an
interpersonal thing.
But he did a great job.
I think you're right.
I think he did a great
job with the limitations
they were handed.
AUDIENCE: Great.
Thanks.
JIM BUTCHER: Thank you.
AUDIENCE: Sorry to
come back again.
This is about Codex Alera.
Those were a great
escape hatch for me
one year, when it
was a bad year.
JIM BUTCHER: Good.
AUDIENCE: In those books, there
are two things that I noticed.
The fight scenes
were incredible.
I burned the edges of the pages
as I flipped them too quickly.
I don't know if that
was part of what
you wanted to do in
those books, to explore
how to write a battle scene
in an engaging and really
compelling way-- one.
And, two, in Harry
Dresden and Codex Alera,
you build these worlds and then,
to some extent-- no spoilers--
you destroy them.
And what's that
like for a writer?
JIM BUTCHER: I'm sorry.
What was that?
AUDIENCE: What's
that like for you?
Is that funny?
JIM BUTCHER: It's
like the guy who
spends six months
building a model of Tokyo
and then finally gets to
strap on a Godzilla suit.
That's what it's like.
You spend all this time
working and getting it perfect,
and then you get to look at it
and go, "And now-- mwahahahaha!
I'm going to wipe out
everything in Dresden's life.
I'm going to blow up his office.
Kadoom!
Going to burn down his home!
Pew!
Smash his car!
Kkkh!"
It is so much fun to do that.
AUDIENCE: I get
that sense that it
would be fun to knock
over the sandcastle.
JIM BUTCHER: It is!
Oh, my god, it's awesome!
AUDIENCE: I'm attached to it.
I enjoy the destroy,
but I'm attached to it
and now things are changing,
which is kind of the fun part.
JIM BUTCHER: We can build
new stuff, you know?
The great part
about being a writer
is that it doesn't cost me any
more to destroy Chicago that it
does to not destroy Chicago.
I've got no budget that I
have to worry about with that.
I just get words.
I've got the ultimate freedom of
how I get to present the story
or what I want to do.
Yeah.
It is tremendous fun, after you
spent all this time building
things up, to go now I'm going
to turn everything on its side.
It's like aha!
I sometimes feel like one
of those painters that
paints the giant
incomprehensible thing
and then goes aha and
turns it upside-down,
and it's a portrait of
one of the judges in the
"Who's Got Talent" contest.
Whose brain works like that?
I don't know.
That's amazing.
But I sometimes get
to feel like that,
where I get to
say now I've built
all your expectations in this
one direction-- surprise.
That's a ton of
fun-- totally worth
the effort it takes to do.
AUDIENCE: Hi.
JIM BUTCHER: Hey.
AUDIENCE: Back to the
roleplaying thing,
as readers we love to see
our characters level up.
But I've seen many authors
that level up too much.
The campaign goes Monty Haul,
and it ceases to become fun,
almost.
In your books,
thankfully, you don't seem
to have an issue with that.
Is it hard not to write yourself
in a corner that way, though?
JIM BUTCHER: No.
Because I know what the end is.
The reason that some of
the series go Monty Haul
and go too long
and people just get
too powerful-- they get
handed the dagger of Cain,
or whatever, and it keeps
going and going and going--
is that the story was
supposed to end before that,
and they did they
didn't end the story.
Stories aren't stories unless
they have an ending to them.
I'm one of the people
who believes that.
I don't believe in a
never-ending story.
For me, it's easy to keep
to keep Harry in check
in terms of where he's getting
as he's getting more buff
and getting more
contacts and so on,
because I know what he's going
to be fighting in the next book
and what's going to be
coming down the line
and where he's going to wind up.
Because I know all that
stuff, I can gauge-- OK, he
needs to be about this far.
Now he needs to
be about this far.
No he needs to be
about this far.
So that he is never the
super-overpowered guy
who just smashes
everything all around him.
He still remains the guy who is
not the big fish in the pond.
He's the medium-sized
fish who needs
to be smart and fast if he
wants to stay alive another day.
Really, it's all about
pacing and knowing
where you're going to wind up.
I know where I'm
going to wind up
and what he's going to be
doing when we get there,
so it's easy to
keep him on track.
AUDIENCE: Looking forward to it.
Thanks.
JIM BUTCHER: Thank you.
AUDIENCE: Hi.
You do action
really, really well.
JIM BUTCHER: Thank you.
AUDIENCE: I've always
wanted to know--
have you studied martial arts?
Do you have any black belts?
How did you do the
research for that?
Some of those moves
and some of what
happens in combat you only
know if you've sparred before.
JIM BUTCHER: I've got about
20 years of martial arts
experience.
I've studied a bunch
of different arts.
I don't have black
belts in anything,
because I don't think
they're very important.
But I like to go to new
schools, and when I come in,
they're like well, do
you have any experience?
And I'm like teach me like
I don't know anything,
because I want to learn
what you have to teach me.
Usually it doesn't take folks
very long to figure out oh,
you've done some of this before.
It's like well,
yeah, a little, but I
want to learn what you've got.
I started off in shorin
ryu at the local Y.
And then I was very
fortunate to study
ryukyu kempo for a long time.
I actually got to spend
about three months
in 90-minute one-on-one
lessons every day,
because I was the only one who
ever came to the noon lesson.
So I got noon lessons
with Mr. Shintaku, who
was a 6-dan in
ryukyu kempo and was
a Japanese collegiate
aikido champion
and was a really good
teacher-- who would hurt you
if you did it wrong.
When you're in that one-on-one
circumstance like that,
you learn very rapidly.
You learn a lot very fast.
He was the reason I've
got one good martial arts
story-- that's my own, I mean.
After that, in college, it was
goja shoryu, aikido, kung-fu,
some jiu jitsu, some wing chun.
I wasn't very good at aikido,
but it was a beautiful art.
I'm too impatient to
be good at aikido.
Aikido is one of
those arts that's
basically like how foolish
would you like to look?
Come at me that hard.
I've done some kung-fu, some
taekwondo, some wing chun.
Epee, foil, saber.
I've got some weapon forms in.
But I'm kind of a dilettante.
I can handle myself reasonably
well against somebody
who is not a professional.
A professional would eat me
up, because professionals
are completely different
than everybody else.
But I have learned a lot.
And I've got to
talk to people a lot
and borrow stories from them.
Just generally, I've had
a lot of fun doing it.
What I realized at some
point-- I don't know,
maybe 10 years in--
I looked around
and I realized wait
a minute, the ability
to disassemble another human
being with your bare hands
is not really useful
on a day-to-day basis.
It doesn't really
help you out when
you're in the grocery store.
But other lessons from martial
arts, especially about balance,
teach you a whole
lot that's very
good for the rest of your life.
AUDIENCE: That's true.
Cool.
AUDIENCE: Maybe this
is an unfair question
but if you weren't a writer--
if it didn't take off the way
it did-- where do you think
your life would have gone?
My last real paying job, I
was working technical support
at a local Internet provider.
I was the guy who
came in at 10:00
and was responsible for the
entire place until 6:00 AM.
And it was the largest
provider in Oklahoma.
It provided for
everybody at that time.
They even had more customers
than AOL did in Oklahoma.
It was a great job.
I had a great boss.
It was my Fezziwig job.
My boss was former military.
He offered to fight a guy for
me once-- that's how good a boss
he was.
I had a guy who was on the phone
when my boss came in at 6:00,
and he had messed up his
computer by around 8:00
the previous night,
and then he'd
to fix it until 4:00 in the
morning, when he finally called
me-- at which point there
wasn't a whole lot I could do,
because he had
mangled it so badly.
He was screaming at me on the
phone when the boss walks in.
My boss actually
offered to fight him.
He was ex-military.
He was about
six-two, about 245--
played basketball with all
the college intern guys.
Had this buzz cut,
blue eyes-- looked
like the reincarnation of Thor.
He was like yeah,
I'll be happy to talk
to you about my employee.
If you're that
upset, come on down,
and I'll be the one
that you'll deal with.
I was like OK, man, when you
call me in on a Saturday,
I'm coming in after this.
They liked me because I had
just enough ability at code
that I could kludge something
together until morning
so that I didn't have to
go get a programmer out
of bed at 3:00.
I would wait until 6:00, and
then when I was off my shift,
I would give him a call,
because that was when, I knew,
his alarm went off.
He's like is there a problem?
Yeah there's a problem.
There's a patch program
that's kind of running,
and it's sort of
making things work,
but maybe you should get
in as quick as you can.
He's like OK, thank you
for not waking me up.
And I loved that
job, because I liked
helping people over the phone.
I liked getting them back
onto their video games.
I liked solving problems.
That was fun.
Plus, there was a lot
of "EverQuest" going on
at that job.
Come to think of it, I actually
wrote the first two books
of the Dresden Files and
the first Codex Alera book
on that job.
There you go.
I would probably be doing
something in that area
still, because I love my tech.
FEMALE SPEAKER:
Last two questions.
AUDIENCE: Silly
Dresden Files question.
Remember from "Cold Days"
the shenanigans regarding
the origin of the keep?
Can we expect more time
shenanigans in future books?
JIM BUTCHER: More
time shenanigans?
Sir?
One of the laws of magic states
that you cannot mess with time
like that!
Of course there will be
more time shenanigans!
I only established the
seven laws of magic
so that I could have
Dresden methodically break
them one by one!
AUDIENCE: All right, speaking of
silly questions-- after the way
you dealt with Cat Sith
in the Dresden books
and having a whole
race of talking cats,
I'm kind of scared.
Should I be?
JIM BUTCHER: It's not so bad.
They're like fuzzy, really,
really, really egotistical
little libertarians.
They're rolling all
over everywhere.
They're completely independent.
They don't want to pitch
in to anybody's help.
They're arrogant.
They're egotistical.
They're close-minded.
They're adorable.
They get away with it.
And they're almost as good
as they think they are,
which makes them very
useful to the team.
At the same time, the
cats in these stories,
they have created
weapons for themselves.
They wear fighting
spurs that they
strap onto their rear legs.
They are not to
be taken lightly.
They're not quite Cat
Sith, but they're close.
AUDIENCE: Thank you.
JIM BUTCHER: You're
very welcome.
FEMALE SPEAKER: Thank you so
much for joining us today.
JIM BUTCHER: Thanks, guys.
FEMALE SPEAKER: And "Aeronaut's
Windlass" is out now.
[APPLAUSE]
