TRICIA ROSE: It seems to me
that we think a lot about policy
and inequality.
And my own work focuses in
some ways on those issues.
But the place that reinforces,
consciously and unconsciously,
the nature of how we think
about each other racially, what
constitutes a black
space, a black art,
a black cultural
expression, happens
in the form of narrative, and
storytelling, and imagery.
And those are the places
where we're the most open,
the most free.
And it touches most
of us more regularly.
You have to be a policy wonk to
be paying attention to policy.
You don't have to be much
engaged in media images
to actually have to
become a part of how
they shape the consciousness
about race in America.
So it's an exceptionally
important thing.
It raises lots of
issues, many of which
I hope we'll talk about today.
Does it matter who's making
these kinds of images?
Does it matter that
these are independent?
Independent from what?
Is there something
called crossover?
Those of you who are 40 and
up remember when crossover
was like this big deal.
Did somebody crossover to pop?
They sold out.
This is a non-starter
conversation in 2018,
is my position.
How did that happen?
What does that actually mean?
Is that a good thing?
Is that a bad thing?
Has it created opportunity?
Y'all are laughing
because you know this is--
I think about this all day.
My [CHUCKLES] colleagues
and students are like, yeah,
we've heard this 14,000 times.
So the context for
cultural spaces
for African-American
and black diasporic art
has dramatically changed.
So in a funny way you'll find
examples of black culture
being at the center
of popular culture
and then weirdly segregated.
I don't know if you
all watched the Emmys,
but there was this huge constant
nominate all these people
of color and then award no one.
It was like--
I was like, can we just go
back to when we didn't even
get nominated?
It's just a little
easier on the psyche--
[LAUGHTER]
--for me, since they weren't
awarding me anything anyway.
So we have amazing
cross-generational alums
to just get started with
those kinds of issues,
plus many more.
So I'm going to start--
I'm going to do it in
alphabetical order,
but I'll make sure
you know who's who.
And you all, I'm sorry, these
are short just so we have--
forgive me.
You're going to be like, what
about these other 90 things
I've done?
Because, really, you all rock.
Brickson Diamond, who's right
here to my left, class of '93.
[APPLAUSE]
Woop-woop.
[APPLAUSE]
He's a [CHUCKLES] trustee
of Brown University.
He's the CEO of
Big Answers, which
generates new partnerships and
leverages impactful connections
for clients in entertainment,
technology, and asset
management.
Brickson is also the founding
board member and chair
of the Blackhouse
Foundation, which
is dedicated to expanding
opportunities, increasing
knowledge, and providing
support for black filmmakers
through partnerships with the
world's most prominent film
festivals.
And largely under his
leadership in Blackhouse,
a record 39 black films
were presented at Sundance
this past year.
[APPLAUSE]
That's a lot of films.
[APPLAUSE]
Now we're out of order,
but Tanya Hernandez--
I know.
It's OK.
It's still out of order.
It's all good.
It's alphabetical
up here, you know.
I was trying to
keep it democratic.
Because I'm not responsible
for the alphabet.
[LAUGHTER]
Tanya Hernandez is class
of '86 and-- woop-woop--
[APPLAUSE]
--received her BA from
Brown University and her JD
from Yale Law School.
She's the Archibald
R. Murray Professor
of Law at Fordham
University School of Law,
where she co-directs the Center
on Race, Law, and Justice
and where she serves as its head
of Global and Comparative Law
programs and initiatives.
She's been awarded many
prestigious fellowships
around the world and is an
internationally recognized
comparative race law expert.
She's the author of a new book
entitled Multiracials and Civil
Rights, Mixed-Race
Stories of Discrimination.
And Tanya will be coming
back to Brown in about a
month, near the end of
October, to give a book talk.
If you're in the
region please come by
and sign up on our mailing list
so you can learn the details.
Welcome, Tanya.
[APPLAUSE]
To Tanya's left is
Scott Poulson-Bryant,
class of '08, but
really class of '88.
[LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE]
I had the blessing of having
Scott twice as a student.
In '88 I was a graduate
student, and he was an undergrad
in my senior seminar.
And then he came back.
I'm like, you're back?
I'm like, OK, well let's
work together again.
[LAUGHTER]
What the heck.
Scott is a music critic, a
writer, novelist, journalist,
academic, and now assistant
professor in the Department
of English at Fordham University
with research and teaching
interests in 20th century
African-American literature
and popular culture,
gender, sexuality studies,
the 1970's-- which is an
interesting decade indeed--
film and media studies,
and American studies.
What especially
renders him relevant
for this discussion is that
Scott became extremely well
known in journalism circles
for a number of things.
One was his legendary
1988 Village Voice cover
story about voguing, which was
the first national coverage
of this cultural phenomenon.
He's also a co-founding
editor of Vibe magazine.
And I'm certain if you're of
a certain age in this room,
you have like many
copies of Vibe magazine
somewhere in a basement box.
[LAUGHTER]
And [LAUGHS] I'm speaking,
really, about myself,
apparently.
[LAUGHTER]
I was just remembering,
like I have
the whole first year in a box.
OK, his groundbreaking
Vibe profiles of Sean--
who was then Puff Daddy--
Combs in 1992 and the
De La Soul piece in '93
both won the ASCAP Deems
Taylor Award for excellence
in music journalism.
Before helping to launch Vibe
he was the staff writer at Spin
and editorial director
of Giant magazine.
And finally, and definitely
not least, is Doreen St. Félix,
class of '14, Doreen.
[APPLAUSE]
Doreen is a staff writer
at The New Yorker.
And she was previously a
staff writer at MTV News
and an editor-at-large
at Lenny Letter.
She co-hosts a podcast
called Speed Dial
at MTV News focused on music,
pop culture, sex, and race.
Her writings have appeared
in the New York Times
Magazine, New Yorker, Vogue,
The Fader, and Pitchfork.
In 2016 Forbes magazine named
Doreen its 30 Under 30 list,
citing her work on the
Lenny Letter launch
with a newsletter reaching
400,000 subscribers
in under six months.
She's already racked
up high praise
for the depth of her writing on
black popular cultural figures.
When I read The New
Yorker I find myself--
sometimes I read it online,
and I'm just skimming really
quickly on my phone.
And then I'm like, this
had to have been Doreen.
It was just too good.
Then I scroll back to the top.
I'm like, here she is.
And in fact Pitchfork
actually there's--
her Pitchfork essay on Rihanna
was described by the Paper
magazine as quote, "the
best damn thing ever written
regarding Rihanna."
[LAUGHTER]
So join me in welcoming this
fantastic group of panelists.
[APPLAUSE]
So I'm going to
come have a seat.
Thank you for that.
I was going to try
to work that out.
All right, we're just going
to keep this very informal.
We want this to
be a fun reunion.
We don't want people to
come back and feel grilled.
Because then you
all won't come back.
And we love having you.
So this is a real
opportunity for me
to hear from you across so
many mediums, and generations,
and contexts.
What is the scope
of what it means
to tell black stories
in the world today?
And you might-- some of
you who are slightly older,
vintage might want to--
me being the eldest
of the bunch--
might want to talk a bit
about what's different.
So in particular,
I'm just wondering
what's your current state--
what's your take on the current
state of racial representation
in popular culture
and media as compared
to either previous eras in
which you were involved,
or what you've heard
about, in Doreen's case?
There are three mics,
I think, for four.
So you can--
[INAUDIBLE]
Like, what's your overall sense?
[INAUDIBLE]
BRICKSON DIAMOND: I'll jump in.
TRICIA ROSE: Yeah, thank you.
BRICKSON DIAMOND:
You're welcome.
So I don't know if it's on.
Can you hear me?
TRICIA ROSE: Yes, it's on.
BRICKSON DIAMOND: Here we are.
So I've been working around the
film business for the last 12
years or so, but certainly
watching black content
for as long as I've been
alive, because looking
for representation of
myself in various ways.
And so I think we're probably
at the third or fourth peak
blackness [CHUCKLES]
zenith in modern times
in terms of film and media.
So you think about that in
terms of blaxploitation.
But even before that you
think about black folks on TV
when you get The Ed Sullivan
Show and the Supreme
coming on, to blacksploitation,
to the peaks in the '80s
and '90s.
Any era has a great peak of it.
But now I think it's
interesting because
of the sheer volume of content
that's being distributed
and the multiple platforms
on which you can capture it.
So I think that the
democratization of content,
which insults some
people in my film space--
which is film is film, it's
not content, it's art--
is this notion of I can
make whatever I want.
I can get it to anybody
who has eyes or ears.
So therefore I don't
need these big platforms
to control what I make
or what I distribute.
And so in that
environment I think
that we are at a real
sort of turning point
in terms of what's possible.
That is being very naive about
commerce and about what makes
money and making a living.
TRICIA ROSE: So before
you go, hold on.
You can't end on that little
commerce and then pass the mic.
[LAUGHTER]
So say just a little
bit more about why
you think that's naive.
Because what you're
basically saying
is that there's been
this massive expansion
in the capacity to
distribute and create.
But the assumption is that
that expansion produces
opportunities for more
development of broader
representations, or more
radical representations, or ones
that break certain boundaries.
But you're basically saying
there's a naivete for people
who hold this position.
BRICKSON DIAMOND: Because
there are still gatekeepers.
And so for me to--
and my favorite
example is Issa Rae.
Who knows Misadventures
of Awkward Black Girl?
So that's Issa's sort of start.
And that's Issa coming out
of Stanford just making stuff
with her friends.
And that gets a lot of traction.
And then she gets
a deal with ABC,
and not just ABC,
with ShondaLand.
But I've had Issa on
panels and talked to her
about this for years.
She said that that show--
she didn't know
what she was doing,
so she took notes
from everybody.
Anyone who had a thought about
the content, she'd take it
and she'd incorporate it.
In the end, she ended up with
something that wasn't funny
and it wasn't her.
And that deal fell apart.
So nothing came out of
ShondaLand for Issa Rae.
And Larry Wilmore called
and then developed Insecure.
But again, that's HBO.
And I think HBO is
generous, and engaged,
and wanted to hear her voice.
But that validation mattered.
You wouldn't have Issa Rae
today without that validation.
And you need those platforms.
And I would even
say as black people,
we deserve those platforms.
But there's still a lot
to do to get the access.
Because there's lenses,
and perspectives, and bias
that stand in the way.
TRICIA ROSE: One
point you made there--
and then I'm passing the
mic over to someone else.
But what's important there too
is that we think about artists
as being fully formed
with a statement
that they're ready to give.
Whereas what you're
describing is a nurturing,
transformative process that
is both exciting, but also
is a source of vulnerability--
BRICKSON DIAMOND: Well and--
TRICIA ROSE: --as it turned
out in the ShondaLand context.
BRICKSON DIAMOND: So
vulnerability is not always
a bad word.
TRICIA ROSE: No, no--
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
TRICIA ROSE: --to open.
BRICKSON DIAMOND: You're
evolving as an artist.
I'm a big fan of film
festivals and have
labs at film festivals.
And that's because it
gives you a community.
So who's seen Sorry to Bother
You, Boots Riley's new film?
Who knows The Coup, Boots
Riley's original rap group?
And so he talked about
being in the Sundance lab.
And Boots went to every
single lab Sundance had.
He was, I'm going to get
everything you all got.
And he learned.
And he had the
masters telling him
and helping him hone his
craft before his first film.
And I think that--
TRICIA ROSE: That's perfect.
BRICKSON DIAMOND: --we need to
be breaking down those doors
and on the platforms that are
going to edit, and give you
notes, and say crazy crap to you
so you can learn how to stand
up and how to find that voice
because you're carving it out
of stone.
TRICIA ROSE: Right,
right, excellent.
All right who else wants
this tell our third year
take on this current state of
racial representation in media?
All right, Doreen.
DOREEN ST. FELIX: I'll go next.
We can just keep it
going down the line.
So media, I'd say
that I started working
in media four years ago at this
point at a very critical time.
It was post-recession,
but also post social media
as an actual platform for people
to build their careers off of.
This is also, to put
in a global context,
this is post Arab Spring.
This is right around Ferguson.
And I think it really
affected the way gatekeepers
and media started to think of
what their mastheads looked
like.
Who was actually doing
the reporting about--
not merely black culture,
and black images,
and how they're processed,
but also black people
and how they decide to process
those images for themselves.
And because of that
weird gap period,
pre-Trump lambasting
the existence of media,
I was able to take
advantage of that.
And I think that there are a
lot of people in my micro-class
of writers who are journalists
of color, queer journalists,
who were both tokenized
but also nurtured because
of our specific viewpoints.
This was a great moment
where gatekeepers
decided to actually exploit the
specific knowledge that we had.
And of course, it's a
mutual exploitation.
And for me, I think it's a very
critical moment in journalism.
It seems that there are more
black writers and journalists
at these institutional
legacy magazines
than have ever been before.
But at the same time, we're
not seeing many people
get hired as editors.
We're not seeing them really
get hired on the business side.
And of course that
affects who you
see on the covers of magazines.
I think a great example
would be the New
York Times Magazine recently did
a story on the opioid epidemic.
And the photo of the
magazine was a mother.
And she's presumably white.
She has blond hair.
And it's covering her face.
And she's cradling a child.
Now let's contrast that
image with the images
of the crack babies of the
'80s and the early '90s.
And I've had these conversations
with peer journalists
who realize we feel like
it's a pressure cooker.
We're getting to the top.
We're almost able to
articulate ourselves in the way
that we'd like to, but
there's always this ceiling
that-- it's very
difficult to crack.
There's the glass
ceiling, but then there's
a concrete ceiling.
And I think when we talk about
what media workers of color
can actually get accomplished
given the historical boundaries
that prevent them from getting
those things accomplished,
that's what we're talking about.
TRICIA ROSE: Do
you find that it's
difficult if you were to
challenge and say, look
at this cover article and this
image of this mother versus,
pull out random--
I mean, is there a worry that
there would be repercussions?
DOREEN ST. FELIX:
I think it's more
that, in some ways,
conversation, discussion,
diversity talks
have been fetishized
in these professional spaces.
So everybody loves
to have the talk.
It's like, yeah,
let's have a panel.
[LAUGHTER]
Let's have 10 panels.
But when it comes to
actually instrumentalizing
what is being
discussed, if you don't
have people in
places of power, it's
difficult to see a conversation
get concretized into a spread,
or into a certain
journalist getting assigned
to a story versus another one.
TRICIA ROSE: All right,
that's very helpful.
Thank you.
Tanya?
TANYA HERNANDEZ: Yeah, I'd
like to sort of throw myself
in here.
And if some of you
are wondering why
does a lawyer have anything to
be talking about on this panel,
it's because as a lawyer I care
about the ways in which there
are representations
in media that
affect how law is enforced,
and in particularly,
how law's enforced with regard
to issues of inequality,
discrimination, et cetera.
So with the shift that I
have noticed, [CHUCKLES]
30 years since
graduating from Brown,
is that when it comes to media
representations about how
people identify, that blackness
is come to be treated as if it
were a trap as opposed
to a liberatory space,
that this idea
that, oh, blackness,
that's so restrictive.
Why do you just
identify just as black?
Oh, you don't really look black.
Why do you want to choose
to identify as black?
And that is
something that I view
as both a faux kind of wave
of talking about liberty,
this idea of your
personal equality
is about your ability to break
out of race or racial category
and that the rest
of us are fools
who are clinging to blackness
because we are stuck
in a pre-civil rights world.
And that, I think, is really
problematic for when judges
pick up these ideas in media.
They assume it's part of our
culture or exposed to it all.
And they start to treat civil
rights law as, oh yes, it's
very antiquated.
Now we're all free
to be trans-racial.
And so-- right?
And so things that you see in
the workplace that go down,
well that's not
really about racism.
That was a
misunderstanding, et cetera.
And that's one aspect of the
absence of journalists of color
that I think is
also problematic.
But also, even with journalists
of color, which stories
get amplified?
Which stories get picked up?
And I think that there's
this angle about identifying
with blackness as being old
fashioned and narrow minded
that is more seductive in an
elite media space that is not
beneficial to our civil rights.
TRICIA ROSE: Right, right.
Wow, very nice.
Thank you.
Scott?
SCOTT POULSON-BRYANT: Yeah, as
someone who isn't as involved
professionally with that sort
of space as I used to be--
and to your point
about democratization
and gatekeepers, I'm
sort of fascinated
by the way social
media has transformed
those kinds of positions.
Like, who are the
gatekeepers now when
it comes to Black
Twitter, which is
a space of cultural production?
And I'm really fascinated by
the way in which we don't--
it isn't always about sort
of the kind of journalism
that Doreen and I
did at one point,
but these sort of smaller, more
niche, direct marketing almost
ways in which people can
communicate their ideas
and their thinking
about blackness.
I mean, I just think about
like the Rachel Dolezal
sort of tyranny--
the tyranny of the memes
that came out of that.
There was a narrative in that.
And there was a propulsion,
and thinking about, and talking
about race in these interesting
kind of ways because of someone
like Rachel Dolezal.
When the Rachel
Dolezal story broke,
that was a moment
where I thought,
I wish I was a journalist again.
I would have some fun
things to say about that.
But yeah, I also find myself
thinking a lot, to your point
Tricia, about the ways in which
black culture production has
been sort of simultaneously
foundational to this American
project, culturally speaking,
but also marginalized,
at the same time oftentimes.
And I think that this
changing thoughts thinking
about gatekeeping as sort
of a way of controlling,
or maintaining,
or containing what
black cultural production is--
there are these free
spaces now that I found.
Like when we were starting
Vibe, one of the reasons
we started Vibe was precisely
because of the opioid thing,
because of the way the crack
baby was being represented.
And how could we
make a magazine that
read beautifully
about blackness,
that looked beautiful?
Because that's a big
part of it, not just
what people read, but the
actual images they see.
How can we get the photographers
and get the writers who
could express blackness in this
creative and foundational way
and resist the sort of
narratives that were out there?
And we were owned by
Time Inc. at the time.
And so there were
fights to be had.
But we won them
more often than not
because we saw the
space that needed to be
resisted and pushed against.
So I'm just fascinated
as, again, just
as a viewer right now--
I will say, not to
be critical, but my--
the one thing-- the resistance I
have to this fascination I have
is that there's still this
thing called quality control.
And sometimes the lack
of gatekeeping as ANR
people, or as editors, or--
means that I find myself
reading interesting stuff that
feels very first draft.
And I think there's
a way in which we--
and I feel like we
sort of encourage--
[APPLAUSE]
--I mean I love
the democratization
of culture that way.
But I also feel like there
are ways in which first draft
culture doesn't free us either.
So that's just something I've
been thinking about recently.
BRICKSON DIAMOND: I do
want to jump in back.
Though, Scott, there's
still gatekeepers even
in this sort of
social media world.
Because the algorithm
is out there.
SCOTT POULSON-BRYANT: See,
no, that is absolutely right.
That is very true.
BRICKSON DIAMOND: It is
absolutely controlling
what you and I see every day.
SCOTT POULSON-BRYANT:
That is very true.
BRICKSON DIAMOND: And that's
baseless, and sometimes really
mindless in terms of who's
building the algorithm.
Because they don't think about
us when they're building it.
And so I think about that,
but also the people--
I think that we all
have throwbacks.
And there are folks
that we're relying on.
So I literally had a
conversation yesterday
about Scott.
And--
SCOTT POULSON-BRYANT: About me?
BRICKSON DIAMOND:
--yes, about you--
[LAUGHTER]
--and about the impact that
his writing on Facebook.
I think the last
thing I read from you
was that you were
saying you were not
going to comment any more.
Then you went on to comment.
[LAUGHTER]
SCOTT POULSON-BRYANT:
Yeah, that's
my own sort of self-policing.
[LAUGHTER]
BRICKSON DIAMOND: You
didn't do a good job.
[LAUGHTER] But then
we're all like,
well what's he going to say?
And then the engagement piece--
so there's the algorithm first
that says what I
get to see it all.
But then there is the
power of the writer
take it back and
say, all right, I'm
going to engage these audiences.
We're just going to
play into the algorithm.
Because the more engaging I am
and the more responsive I am,
the higher I'm going to float
up in terms of people's pages.
So there's this whole sort
of math thing going on
that I think we all need to
be more aware of that ranges
from how your engagement with
your followers lifts you,
in terms of visibility, to
opening weekends on content,
on television, on film.
So Nappily Ever After is
on Netflix this weekend.
You got to go home
and just play it
even if you're not watching
it to make the numbers go up
so that they make more.
Because Netflix is
really guarded about what
the numbers are.
But they will show
up to a creator
and say, the numbers
just aren't here anymore.
Sorry, you're done.
SCOTT POULSON-BRYANT:
Can I ask you a question?
Do you see-- in
terms of Facebook,
Facebook is actually really
valuable for someone like me
who was a journalist.
Because I can feel like I can
be part of a public conversation
that I used to be a part
of and sort of be more
personally engaged about it.
The Netflix question
makes me think.
It sort of makes me think
about the conversations
we used to have about opening
weekends for black films.
And so it was like,
everyone go see it.
Buy the ticket, even
if you don't go.
Or buy two.
But then we see
Hollywood not respond
with a slew of a whole
lot of new black films.
We have the moment now.
Is Netflix sort of
similar to that you think?
In TV or of streaming,
if we do all show up,
there will be more
to show up for?
BRICKSON DIAMOND:
Yes, but we won't
know what they're doing because
it's behind this curtain.
But I think it is
this notion of--
they look at the
numbers aggressively.
And they follow them.
The beauty and the upside
and downside of Netflix
is they are making
so much content,
they just give you money.
They're like this is--
you got a good thing, Doreen.
We like it.
It's due on the 12th.
Thanks.
[LAUGHTER]
DOREEN ST. FELIX: [INAUDIBLE].
BRICKSON DIAMOND:
And then you get it.
As long as it's not garbage,
no offense, they put it on.
And if nobody watches
it, they don't come back.
But if somebody comes
back, they're going to--
you're going to
have another one,
and another one, another
one, another one.
SCOTT POULSON-BRYANT:
That's good.
BRICKSON DIAMOND: And
they have this thing now
called Strong Black Lead.
They're not a
client yet, Netflix.
But they have the
Strong Black Lead,
which came out just
when the controversy hit
with the communications director
using the n-word in a meeting
and publicly, and then
using it again in the review
meeting with HR about
the first meeting.
So it's like--
[LAUGHTER]
--problematic.
TRICIA ROSE: Yeah,
missing the point.
BRICKSON DIAMOND:
Missing the point,
but they now have
Strong Black Lead.
And they're really
driving that forward.
And they want more audience.
TRICIA ROSE: But
at the same time
there is a fundamental
tension here for me.
So tell me if I'm--
anyone and everyone
can pipe in on this.
So on the one hand you're
saying if work gets done
and it gets a lot
of viewers, then
there'll be more that work.
Well what is the work that
gets a lot of viewers?
What is the existing
framework about what
constitutes a black performance
that has enough mass appeal
to actually generate
the proper numbers?
And so we end up
with-- and I know
you all are fans, but whatever.
We get another Empire.
Sorry--
[LAUGHTER]
--sorry.
Everybody's--
BRICKSON DIAMOND: Star.
TRICIA ROSE: --got
their guilty pleasure.
Everybody's got their
guilty pleasure.
That's not mine.
[LAUGHTER]
Or Tyler Perry--
BRICKSON DIAMOND: Nor mine.
TRICIA ROSE: --that's
not mine either.
But again, I'm not
saying it's good or bad.
I'm simply saying that the
assumption that the preexisting
kind of black consumer is
a critically sophisticated
about black culture
and history, and is not
rendering the same kinds
of potential narrative
faux pas, tropes, stereotypes
that we would be challenging
if other people made them.
So I'm wondering how
we get out of that bind
if we don't have more than just
the question of representation,
and amount of representation,
and success as our lenses.
DOREEN ST. FELIX: There's been--
as someone who basically
lives on the internet,
writes about the
internet, reports
on the culture of the
internet, I have no--
TRICIA ROSE: Wow--
DOREEN ST. FELIX: It's terrible.
TRICIA ROSE: --well at
least you're here in person.
We're very happy.
[LAUGHTER]
DOREEN ST. FELIX:
Popping out of my hole.
[LAUGHTER]
But one chorus I've
observed online, probably
over the past 2
and 1/2 years, has
been the unapologetic
blackness of blank.
And the reason why people use
this headline so much-- so
initially it's just a headline.
The point is to grab you.
So they could be talking about
the unapologetic blackness
of Empire, for example, in 2016.
Then you read the article.
And then it really is
just like a review.
The point is just
for you to click.
But then the headline ended up--
this headline ideology ended
up exerting this dominance
on the way people
actually started
doing their criticism so
that blackness ended up
becoming a cipher.
It wasn't about
specifically reporting
on the aspects of the art.
It was just like representation
was the end goal, which
is to say this show has
a all-black writer staff,
so it's good.
Or this show has all-black
female directors--
I'm thinking of a specific
show, I'm not going to say it--
so that means it's good.
And it's been really
frustrating for me as a critic.
Because I think,
in general, there's
always been a culture
of boot lickery.
But it's very high right
now because, I think,
there's an assumption that,
OK, we're getting our chances,
critics need to be
in cahoots with us
to make sure that those
chances end up surviving.
And I've found myself
sometimes just deciding
to not even cover
something because I
know if I decide that I hate
this season of Insecure--
TRICIA ROSE: You can't say so.
DOREEN ST. FELIX: --I'm going
to be made a pariah online.
You can't say so.
And here's the--
TRICIA ROSE: That's the
social media downside.
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
DOREEN ST. FELIX: --of thought.
And I actually, I really
like this season of Insecure,
but I think that--
[LAUGHTER]
TRICIA ROSE: Somebody was
going to tweet that you didn't.
So it's really, really good
that you clarified that, Doreen.
DOREEN ST. FELIX: I was a
[INAUDIBLE],, let me finish.
But I think, as a critic,
our environment is just
impoverished when
people cannot disagree.
There should always be someone
who doesn't like something.
There should be someone
who hates Black Panther
and puts out a--
[LAUGHTER]
DOREEN ST. FELIX: --here's
the thing, though--
[LAUGHTER AND TALKING]
--we're not a well-liked people.
TRICIA ROSE: I'm with her.
I'm standing with her on that.
I got beef with Black Panther.
[LAUGHTER AND TALKING]
DOREEN ST. FELIX: But you know--
TRICIA ROSE: I do too.
DOREEN ST. FELIX: Critics
are not well liked.
SCOTT POULSON-BRYANT:
I'm with you too.
DOREEN ST. FELIX: But
I think that to me I've
just noticed that there is
a homogenizing of thought
happening around
black criticism.
And thinking about The
Voice, which, rest in peace,
it's a tragedy that The Voice
has been killed in the way
that it has been--
one of the reasons why that
paper was so foundational
for me was because I
was reading people I
didn't agree with all the time.
But I was still so moved
by their thought processes,
by the excavation work that
they were doing in order
to evidence their arguments.
And so I think that
there is something
about this quick hit critical
culture where you either
like something or you don't like
something that denies nuance.
It denies ambivalence.
And it creates an
ontological position
of the black consumer where
they only like things,
or they don't like things.
They buy things, or
they don't buy things.
And there are other
ways to engage.
SCOTT POULSON-BRYANT:
Yeah, imagine
working with people you don't
disagree with at The Voice.
That was my experience.
But yeah, so the downside to
my sort of loving of cultural
[INAUDIBLE] of the internet is
the way in which criticism now
is sort of framed as hating.
There is no critique anymore.
There is no-- if you don't
like something you're a hater.
You're hating it.
You're a hater of it.
You're not a critic of it.
But also this sort of hot take
culture that we're living in,
this sort of think piece
culture-- like I hate
think pieces now.
Everyone has a think
piece about every idea
that comes down the pike.
And it's like, but
it doesn't feel
like you've thought about it--
[LAUGHTER]
--for it to be a think piece.
So yeah, that does
get bothersome.
But I also think there's a
way in which that unapologetic
blackness thing-- which
annoys me to no end--
is a kind of response to
the respectability thing
that everyone sort of is
talking about in social media.
And I wonder if
there's this sort
of holding on to this
unapologetic blackness thing
and grouping blackness
under this sort
of weird, huge
umbrella, encompassing
all sorts of rachet or
crazy behaviors, is a way
that people are sort of
holding on to something
that they feel like
they're losing.
And I don't know if that's
the remnants of crossover
culture in a way, or a way
of losing a black public,
or something.
I don't know.
But yeah, I don't
quite understand
the unapologetic blackness.
Like are we-- it encompasses
everything from Serena
on the tennis court
to Black Panther to--
which, I agree, can use
some criticism sometimes.
So I just wonder about
whether that has a lot
to do with this respectability
conversation people are trying
to have too and these sort
of stunted think pieces
that get published the day
after something happens.
BRICKSON DIAMOND: But a
slight turn on that is
y'all aren't going
to go see stuff.
So this room is probably
the quintessential sort
of profile of black
folks who don't
consume the content, just to
attack you all just brazenly.
[LAUGHTER]
SCOTT POULSON-BRYANT:
Why do you think that?
Because we're old?
Like because we--
BRICKSON DIAMOND: No, I think
we have lots of options.
We can read.
We can travel.
We can go see theater.
So when stuff comes out that's
really beautiful in the cinema,
who has time to go see it?
You have so many options
that we're not consuming it.
So it's made--
I mean, this is the worst
audience to produce for.
Because you're not going
to watch four or five
hours of TV a day.
You don't have
that kind of time.
You're not on Facebook.
You're not-- some people
are like, well maybe.
[LAUGHTER]
But again, I think
the challenge becomes
when I see a lot of
stuff at festivals that
is really beautiful, black
art, I'm like, well good luck,
no one's going to--
this is not for the
mainstream audience.
And the art house black
audience, I think,
is not vibrant enough to
really sustain this stuff.
That's not saying
you can't do it.
I'm just saying you don't.
And therefore it's
hard if you're not
voting with your
dollars and your feet
to expect the market
to produce more of it.
TRICIA ROSE: Hm, interesting.
Yeah.
TANYA HERNANDEZ:
Well I think that's
another interesting aspect
of this internet culture.
You have the yea
and the nay of it.
And it's what passes
for public discourse,
but it's really quite deficient.
And here I'm referring to
the comments back and forth.
Because people--
this is what I've
observed, that the comments
section is almost like a drop
the mic moment.
I said my two cents, bam.
[LAUGHTER]
One, I'm not really listening
to what you're saying,
so we're not really
having an exchange.
It's just that the screen is
showing back, back, back, back,
so it looks like an exchange.
But it's not really an exchange.
I mean, just a quick
little anecdote,
I had an essay that
I posted up on,
I guess, it was Medium-- because
I couldn't get nobody to do it.
And [INAUDIBLE] outlet.
And so I was simply
saying that the thing
about multi-racial
discrimination cases
is that it gets pitched
as being about something
new, and unique, and novel.
But in actuality, once
you get past someone
just saying what their
personal identity is,
that they get discriminated
against in all
the same crude ways that
just generic black people
experience.
It's about you being
not white, right?
That's that's ultimately black.
Anyway, so on the
comments section,
this person came for me.
[LAUGHTER]
And so I go, in nicer
words, thank you so much
for your comment.
When the back and
hte forth was, you're
just trying to impose
the one drop rule.
You're just trying
to minoritize me.
I'm not-- I was simply--
and I wasn't even talking
about personal identity.
I was simply saying that
when discrimination happens,
your identity is irrelevant.
But what was passing for
this public conversation,
us being in public discourse--
the one outlet that we
supposedly democratically
have for public engagement
is so impoverished.
Because it's a
performance of public
discourse without the
richness of public discourse.
And that is the harm
to us, as black people.
[APPLAUSE]
SCOTT POULSON-BRYANT:
Call-out culture is real.
TRICIA ROSE: So is this partly
the result of these being,
as you were kind of starting to
get at Scott, black spaces that
are kind of surrounded by
worries about holding on
to space, and
worrying about holding
on to a certain
kind of autonomy.
So we don't have
black newspapers.
We don't have black
media outlets, really.
We have places that have
black stories, and writers,
and producers in them.
So is that what you think
is creating this kind of--
well, any of you-- this
hyper-defensiveness,
as it were.
Or is it something
else that's going on?
Because you're of two
minds on this panel
around the role of gatekeepers.
I mean, you were saying the
gatekeepers were still there,
and in some ways
that's problematic
because they
control what we see.
And then there's
the gatekeepers,
not only for first
draft to second draft,
but gatekeepers for
critical engagement.
To say this is some
nonsense is not an argument.
It's just a refusal.
So what do you think
is behind this kind
of spatial protectiveness
or defensiveness?
And how might we
take advantage of
this extraordinary expansion?
I mean, we haven't had
this much opportunity
to communicate with
other human beings
in the history of human beings,
every second, all the time.
In fact a few less minutes
of it I'd be happy.
It's a little too much
communication for me.
[LAUGHTER]
But how can we
transform this space
without losing our
places as it were?
SCOTT POULSON-BRYANT: Right,
Brickson referred to the--
how did you describe it?
The-- now I'm forgetting
the words you used.
But to your point, Tricia--
the word'll come to me.
I have a bad memory these days--
is when I said the thing
about the Black Twitter
as cultural production
thing, I think
that's one of the ways
the internet works.
Social media can have
real close cultural value,
and sort of show us
ourselves, and educate
each other, and all that stuff.
But call-out culture is real.
It's like everyone wants to
drop the mic and sort of--
and that's sort of connected
to the way in which everyone
is a critic now.
Social media has
allowed everyone's voice
to be parts of these
conversations, now
matter how the algorithms
end up working.
But everyone gets
a chance do it.
But I think to your-- oh, your
point about these sort of ebbs
and flows of black culture
production, black people,
we always have the
experience of loss or theft.
There's always a
way in which being
foundational to American popular
culture, we put it out there.
We create, from the blues, to
jazz, to hip hop, whatever.
And then we see it get stolen
from us in terms of market,
or in terms of value.
So I think there's the way
in which the internet has
value because there is
a kind of ownership.
There is like that
black public thing
I was talking about that
gets created over and over
and doesn't have the sort of--
in a way doesn't have
the sort of ability
to be stolen in a way.
And if people do steal
it, a new fast thing
will come up right
behind it and doesn't
have to go through the ebb.
The flow can always be there.
TRICIA ROSE: You're an
optimistic member of this.
SCOTT POULSON-BRYANT:
I have to be.
I think, probably, because
I'm a professor now.
That's what I have
to be in a way.
You know what I mean?
Because these
students come to me
as a writing professor, and
as a literature professor,
and a scholar of popular
culture-- whatever that means.
And a lot of them want
to be part of that space.
So I think there's a
way in which I have
to maintain a kind of optimism.
As much as I push back
against first draft culture,
like I still--
I feel like it's part of the
game for me now in a way.
BRICKSON DIAMOND: To hop
on that a little bit,
I think it's about
the scarcity mindset.
I think you want to be
the mic drop because you
think there's only so
much attention to be had.
And so I think that notion
that there's only so much
to be had plays
against us, again,
because we're used to it
being taken away from us.
And I think it goes
to, not just ownership
of your social profile
and your platform in terms
of your page of
the world, but also
for us to start investing in
the means of communication.
I think black ownership
in terms of media
is not at a peak level.
It's certainly
been higher before.
I think Richelieu Dennis
buying Essence is a big move.
And investing in black media
in that way is sort of a trend
I'd like to see more of, of
us actually owning in various
communities, black communities,
Latino communities,
Asian-American communities,
LGBT community, folks--
so we talked more
about the billionaire
buying the publication today.
You don't have to
be a billionaire
to buy a couple of black
publications or platforms.
I think that's part
of the secret sauce.
To get much less scarcity
in the ownership side
is going to make a
difference for us.
DOREEN ST. FELIX:
Just very quickly
to punctuate this observation,
I think that there is--
so social media has
built-in structures
that create a faux
credentialing system.
Which is to say that if you get
a certain number of followers,
you're more likely to become
verified, whatever that means.
You have a blue check on your
name, and all of a sudden
it's like a megaphone.
And it also creates this
really unhealthy dynamic
when blue check
people say something
it's taken as the common
law of the internet.
And then, I think--
I've noticed this.
And it's trickled into
media a little bit
where people who just
became very good at talking
on social media-- you don't need
to be incredibly smart to be
good at social media.
It's about identifying
certain patterns of talking,
certain patterns of--
identifying what's trending
and speaking to that.
It's a very easy game to do.
That's why the Russians
were able to create
this army of black bots.
People were
interacting with bots.
These were not
real black people.
But they were so--
basically these programmers
just figured out the way
the most popular people interact
on these social media platforms
and were able to just
like create a calculation.
And it did it.
And I think what the
blue check culture
does is that it makes
everyone's comment,
therefore, a referendum
on their blackness.
So if you have an opinion that,
for some reason the majority
of people don't agree with, all
of a sudden you're not black
enough, or you're--
I mean, I've seen
people get called coon
online like it's nothing.
And I think that when we create
this strange stage where every
single bit of a person's--
everything that a person says
or everything that they end up
adding to this
popular conversation
ends up being seen either
as vaunted as a law
or as terrible as a sin.
It's just an unhealthy dynamic.
And then that's when you have
the cancel culture, where
someone has an opinion that
people don't agree with
and then all of a sudden
that person is not--
SCOTT POULSON-BRYANT: Trashed.
BRICKSON DIAMOND: --yeah,
that person is trashed.
They're not deemed to be--
considered to be a
part of whatever,
us, the popular consensus
of what blackness
is supposed to perform
itself like online,
that person is, therefore,
not a part of it anymore.
And so I think that
the credentialing,
this idea that if you are able
to accrue a lot of people,
which could just be-- who knows
what followers are at this
point--
that somehow makes you more of
an important voice than someone
who just has like a
few hundred followers.
It's just high school stuff
but amplified in this space.
TRICIA ROSE: Right,
right, really interesting.
So how do you think the
globalization of social media
spaces has transformed
this notion of what
constitutes a black audience?
Is there a global context, a
set of multiracial, mixed race,
Brazilians, other Latin
Americans, Caribbean people,
Africans, others who are
part of this conversation--
in other words, this spatial
racial parameter drawing,
is it having an impact?
Or are they sort of
victimized by what
might be an American
sort of domination
of the way the
technology is developing?
TANYA HERNANDEZ: If I could
throw myself in this one,
I have seen the
positive aspects of it,
two seconds ago about
saying negative,
so I'll throw out
the other side.
The way I've seen the positive
aspects of the internet culture
in the global arena is that for
Afro-descended peoples outside
of the United States, which
is actually the majority--
[LAUGHS] 3% of slaves
brought to United States,
North America, 90% plus more,
the Americas, Latin America,
the Caribbean.
Anyway, so for Afro-descended
people outside of the United
States mainland, to be able
to engage on something as--
a detail about natural hair--
for Afro-descended women
outside of the United States
to have access to
YouTube channels
about natural hair,
products, et cetera,
that is a liberatory space.
Because within-- for Brazil for
the longest time the idea was,
yeah, we have the
largest majority
of Afro-descended people
outside of Nigeria in Brazil.
But [SCOFFS] you're going
to wear your hair like that?
Uh, that's not professional.
I mean, all the same good hair,
bad hair nonsense conversations
that we have in United States,
they exist in Latin America.
And so to be able to have access
to the US, black conversations,
be it in English, but still,
the imagery is very powerful.
And you Google
translate, ba-boom.
And now everyone
has this access.
There's a diasporic
liberatory possibility there,
that, I mean, I think is
really quite phenomenal.
BRICKSON DIAMOND: But I think
about the other platforms--
and so we are so
US-centric in the US.
And so when I travel as an
African-American to even
Canada, I realize,
hey, wait a minute,
there's a whole different
experience right up there
where Trump will invade next.
But it's fascinating
to think about that,
on both the positive side
because there are dynamics
in markets where a
lot of these companies
are investing in
creating local content.
And Nollywood is what, the
second or third largest film
market in the world?
And that's all black
film all the time.
So I think there are places
where it's happening.
I think the challenge, in some
ways becomes that we tend to be
the most vocal of the
Afro-descended folks
in the world in terms of our--
outside of Africa-- in
terms of our rights,
and our perspective, and where
we want to be in the world.
And so you see a lot of the
tropes, even on the continent,
around skin color, and around
the straightening of hair,
and lightening of skin.
And there are
products that are just
sort of popular
around the world that
are terrifying that I think
we've been able to dispense
with here, in many ways.
But there is black--
we as black Americans do
not define black culture
in the world, necessarily.
And we have really
great tentacles out.
But I think there are
local spaces where
there are stories
being told that we
have no awareness of at all.
TRICIA ROSE: So before we
open it up to the audience,
which we're just
about to do, I want
to ask one final question
which is, where do you
think the next best
place for creating
rich and complex cutting-edge
black storytelling is going
to take place, either where
you hope it's going to happen,
or where it's actually
already happening?
And how can we help sort
of expand that space?
[INAUDIBLE]
[LAUGHTER]
BRICKSON DIAMOND: I can jump in.
SCOTT POULSON-BRYANT:
[INAUDIBLE] you all heard that.
[LAUGHTER]
BRICKSON DIAMOND:
So all the artists
I'm working with now in
the age of what we think
is peak television, I'm telling
them to go to the studios
to make traditional
studio films.
Because the studios
are desperate.
And so I spent most of my career
in asset management business.
And my thesis is
buy low, sell high.
And so if Netflix, Amazon, and
Apple are spending, what, $15,
$17 billion on content
this year collectively,
the studios got
to make something.
And we got [INAUDIBLE]
executives in there.
And you could ride the Black
Panther wave, whatever it is.
And you can ride the
Crazy Rich Asians wave.
These movies have performed.
And so the studios--
and I don't just say
this theoretically.
I'm talking to
studios who are like,
we got to get something
on the screens.
So it's not for everybody.
But if you have the way--
Girl Trip--
TRICIA ROSE: Girls Trip.
BRICKSON DIAMOND: Girls
Trip is a, again--
there are ways to get out there
and have some opportunities,
even if you're not Kevin Hart.
TRICIA ROSE: Right--
[LAUGHTER]
--so your point there is
less about the venue itself,
but more about being strategic
about where there's an opening.
BRICKSON DIAMOND: Where there's
an opening, where it is low,
where people are
desperate, you got
to go sell your wares because
they need your opportunity.
And think about Fox.
Who remembers Fox when
it first came out?
It was like the blackest
thing there was.
It couldn't be further
from that until--
and now I'm going to
get real controversial.
Think about OWN.
OWN was not black until white
women weren't watching it.
And now it's real black.
[LAUGHTER]
TRICIA ROSE: What is that?
Sell low-- buy low, sell high.
BRICKSON DIAMOND:
Buy low, sell high.
TRICIA ROSE: I'm just checking.
Good point.
SCOTT POULSON-BRYANT:
I don't know
if this is because of the
algorithms on my social media
feeds, but I'm
feeling like there's
a real flowering in
black letters right--
in black literature right now.
Like in the last few months
I've found all these books
by new young black
writers who are
getting published independently
and by the majors.
And are sort of-- we're in a
really interesting conversation
around blackness and diaspora.
And big shout out for my boy,
Kiese Laymon, whose new book
Heavy is coming out.
That book is going to change
the game in very many ways
in terms of thinking
about autobiography,
and the memoir, and
representations of blackness.
So I have a lot of faith in the
literary community right now
and some editors I know who
are very active about finding
black writers, young
black writers especially
to tell different
kinds of stories.
And also particularly in
the young adult market,
I'm noticing a lot of
sort of forward movement
and progression there.
TRICIA ROSE:
Interesting, interesting.
DOREEN ST. FELIX: SZA
did tweet yesterday
that books are
making a comeback.
So--
SCOTT POULSON-BRYANT: SZA did?
[LAUGHTER]
DOREEN ST. FELIX: Yeah.
SCOTT POULSON-BRYANT: SZA would.
[LAUGHTER]
AUDIENCE: Influence leader.
SCOTT POULSON-BRYANT:
And I don't follow SZA.
So I don't know [INAUDIBLE].
DOREEN ST. FELIX: I take all my
cultural forecasting from SZA.
[LAUGHTER]
BRICKSON DIAMOND: People
in the room are like, who?
[LAUGHTER]
SCOTT POULSON-BRYANT:
[INAUDIBLE]..
BRICKSON DIAMOND: SZA's
your hope for the future?
[LAUGHTER]
DOREEN ST. FELIX: I guess I'll
just quickly say I definitely
feel the same way.
There's a count
that's set every year.
It's called the VIDA count.
And basically it just
counts how many women--
they don't break it down by
race even though they should--
are participating in
both media and books.
And very incrementally the
number creeps up every year.
So for me, thinking
also about what spaces
that black women
in particular can
create their cultural
production in,
books is definitely a space.
But again, living online,
I've noticed like--
there's this like
polymathic kind
of young, black teenager who
makes content for the internet.
And I don't know how it
will be put under one house.
I don't know if
these kids are going
to end up being film
makers, or if they'll
end up being less
traditional storytellers,
but there are just these--
I remember like two years ago
I interviewed a bunch of kids
from Atlanta who just moved to
Hollywood because they decided
that they were
going to be famous.
They had become very
well known on Vine,
which is a defunct video
sharing application.
And it was the first
time, I'd say, in like--
I know I'm a little bit younger.
But it was the first time
I had a sense of this
is a generation
that's going to be--
this generation of
polymathic creators
is going to be
solidified in 20 years.
They're going to Hollywood.
Maybe they'll get a studio
together and make their videos.
Also they make music.
They dance.
And so in that vein
I think that there's
a lot of originators
designing independent ways
to make their content.
They're finding smaller
ways to get funded.
And so for me,
obviously, hearing
about all of these steps
that are made in film
are very exciting.
But I think on
smaller platforms are
ways for kids who are 18,
19 years old to kind of just
like burst out even while
they're not yet fully formed
and be able to make TV shows,
make videos that might not
be widely seen but offer
them an opportunity
to get better in education.
So that's what I'm excited
about independent kids online.
TANYA HERNANDEZ: Great, great.
