>> WELCOME BACK TO THE LINE.
NEW MEXICO COULD JOIN A
GROUP OF STATES THAT WANT TO
ABOLISH THE ELECTORAL
COLLEGE.
AS WE RECORD THIS
DISCUSSION, GOVERNOR
MICHELLE LUJAN-GRISHAM HAS A
BILL ON HER DESK THAT WOULD
ASSIGN NEW MEXICO ELECTORS
TO THE WINNER OF THE
NATIONAL POPULAR VOTE.
NOW, STATES REPRESENTING 172
ELECTORAL VOTES HAVE PASSED
SIMILAR LAWS.
THE PLAN GOES INTO EFFECT
ONLY IF ENOUGH STATES PASS
LAWS TO CONSTITUTE A
MAJORITY OF THE ELECTORAL
COLLEGE.
SOPHIE, OBVIOUS FIRST
QUESTION: IS THE ELECTORAL
COLLEGE JUST SOMETHING OF
THE PAST THAT WE SHOULD JUST
WALK AWAY FROM AT THIS
POINT, OR IS IT JUST NOT --
IS THE EMOTION OF IT SO HIGH
THAT WE'RE NOT SEEING IT
CLEARLY?
>> I THINK THE ELECTORAL
COLLEGE, SORT OF LIKE THE
SENATE, THEY'RE RELICS OF A
TIME WHEN THERE WAS CONCERN
THAT THE POPULATION AS A
WHOLE COULD NOT BE TRUSTED
TO GOVERN ITSELF.
SO ON SOME LEVEL, THEY'RE
ANTI-DEMOCRATIC.
THEY DISTANCE US FROM OUR
OWN DECISIONS.
I THINK PART OF THE PRESSURE
NOW, THOUGH, REALISTICALLY
IS THAT WE'VE HAD TWO
PRESIDENTS WHO HAVE BEEN
ELECTED WITHOUT THE POPULAR
VOTE, AND THEY WERE BOTH
REPUBLICAN, AND SO WE
CERTAINLY DO SEE A POLITICAL
DIVIDE BETWEEN THE FOLKS WHO
WANT IT AND THE FOLKS WHO
DON'T, AND OTHER BIG DIVIDE
IS THE BIG STATE/SMALL STATE
DIVIDE, AND YOU CERTAINLY
SEE IT IN CONVERSATIONS
ABOUT THIS TOPIC HERE IN
NEW MEXICO, CONCERNS THAT
NEW MEXICO WILL LOSE
ELECTORAL POWER.
WE HAVE TO BALANCE THAT
AGAINST, LIKE, DOES THE
NEW MEXICO VOTER DESERVE TO
HAVE MORE SAY THAN VOTERS IN
OTHER STATES, AND AS AN
INDIVIDUAL, ARE YOU REALLY
ENTITLED TO THAT.
>> MERRITT, YOU SEE THAT A
LOT, READ THAT A LOT, THAT
THE COUNTRY IS GOING TO BE
CALIFORNIA AND THE EAST
COAST AND TEXAS, IS GOING TO
DECIDE PRESIDENTIAL
ELECTIONS FROM NOW ON.
IS THAT A FAIR WAY TO PUT
THIS?
>> EVEN WITH THE ELECTORAL
COLLEGE, AND WE HAVE FIVE
ELECTORAL VOTES, NO ONE --
>> NO ONE COMES TO VISIT US.
>> RIGHT.
AND TO ME, THIS IS REALLY
LESS A VIEW OF WHETHER THE
ELECTORAL COLLEGE IS A
RELIC, ARE WE A DEMOCRACY OR
A REPUBLIC, IT'S NONE OF
THAT.
IT'S THAT DEMOCRATS ARE
REALLY, REALLY, REALLY MAD
THAT TRUMP WON.
HE'S DATA LIKE NEVER BEFORE.
HE WENT TO THE STATES -- HE
DID THE MATH, HE DID THE
DATA, HE GAMED THE SYSTEM,
HE WON, AND DEMOCRATS ARE
MAD.
TO ME, THIS IS A PRETTY
HOLLOW GESTURE THAT
SIMPLY -- IT DOES CERTAINLY
REDUCE OUR VOTING POWER.
WHETHER IT'S FAIR OR NOT, IT
WILL DIMINISH OUR VOTING
POWER.
>> IN WHAT SENSE?
I WANT TO MAKE SURE I'M
CLEAR.
>> BECAUSE OUR VOTE DOES
COUNT MORE THAN A
CALIFORNIAN'S RIGHT NOW,
BECAUSE WE HAVE FIVE
ELECTORS.
I THINK IT ODD WHEN WE'RE SO
DISADVANTAGED IN SO MANY
WAYS IN THIS COUNTRY THAT WE
WOULD ACTUALLY TAKE ONE OF
THE FEW ADVANTAGES WE HAVE
AND GET RID OF IT.
>> YOU KNOW, THIS HAS BEEN A
THING OUT THERE, THERE'S
BEEN A GROUP HERE IN
NEW MEXICO THAT'S BEEN
PUSHING THIS FOR A LITTLE
BIT, TOO.
IS IT ALL ABOUT EMOTION,
SENATOR, OR IS THERE
SOMETHING MORE INVOLVED
HERE?
DO WE FEEL LIKE WE'RE NOT
GETTING OUR FAIR SAY IN
PRESIDENTIAL POLITICS?
>> WE'RE OVERREPRESENTED
NOW, AS MERRITT SAID.
WE'RE OVER REPRESENTED, AND
THAT'S AS A RESULT OF THE
ELECTORAL COLLEGE.
WHAT I SEE IS A VERY
ANTIQUATED SYSTEM.
NOW, THERE ARE MORE THAN
REPUBLICANS THAT WERE
ELECTED WITHOUT A MAJORITY.
I WENT BACK AND LOOKED.
JOHN QUINCY ADAMS, FOR
EXAMPLE.
RUTHERFORD B. HAYES.
BENJAMIN HARRISON.
ALL THREE OF THEM WERE
ELECTED WITHOUT A MAJORITY
VOTE.
I THINK IT'S VERY IMPORTANT
NOW WHEN THERE ARE SO MANY
DIVISIONS IN THE COUNTRY
THAT A PRESIDENT BE ELECTED
WITH A MAJORITY VOTE SO THAT
HE OR SHE CAN GO AHEAD AND
CREATE POLICY WITH MORE
CREDIBILITY.
AND YOU KNOW, I JUST THINK
IT'S A QUESTION.
DO YOU VALUE DEMOCRACY?
DO YOU VALUE EVERY VOTE
COUNTING EQUALLY?
AND MAJORITY RULE?
OR ARE YOU JUST PROVINCIAL
AND WANT YOUR STATE TO HAVE
A DISPROPORTIONATE SHARE OF
POWER?
AND, YES, WE'VE BEEN DOWN A
LONG TIME, SO MAYBE WE
DESERVE A LITTLE
DISPROPORTIONATE POWER EVERY
ONCE IN A WHILE.
BUT I WOULD OPT FOR
DEMOCRACY.
>> INTERESTING LAST POINT
THERE.
YOUR SENSE OF THIS.
WHAT HAPPENS -- LET'S KIND
OF FLIP THIS AROUND A LITTLE
BIT.
WHAT HAPPENS IF WE GO TO
THIS GAME AND GET ENOUGH TO
FLIP THIS OVER IN THE
COUNTRY AND GO TO THE
POPULAR VOTE, BUT THEN
UNPOPULAR PEOPLE ARE STILL
ELECTED?
DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?
WHAT HAVE WE GAINED HERE?
IT COULD HAPPEN.
>> CHAOS WILL REIGN IS THE
BOTTOM LINE, IS WHAT WILL
HAPPEN.
THE BILL, I THINK, IS
THERAPEUTIC.
I THINK THAT IT'S JUST
SOMETHING THAT -- AND
I WOULD SAY DEMOCRACY IS
WHAT PUT THE ELECTORAL
COLLEGE INTO PLACE, AND WHY
WOULD WE WANT TO GIVE AWAY
OUR BIRTH RIGHT AS FAR AS
OUR ELECTORAL VOTES.
IS IT BROKEN, DOES IT NEED
TO BE TWEAKED?
SURE.
BUT IS GIVING OUR VOTES TO
WHOEVER THE POPULAR PERSON
IS THE RIGHT WAY TO DO THAT?
ALL THIS DOES IS IT SUPPORTS
A BROKEN TWO PARTY SYSTEM.
THERE ARE DEMOCRATS AND
THERE ARE REPUBLICANS, AND
THERE ARE PEOPLE IN THE
MIDDLE WHO HATE BOTH OF
THEM.
>> A GROWING MIDDLE.
>> EXACTLY, THE GROWING
MIDDLE.
AND ALL THIS KIND OF
MOVEMENT DOES IS IT SUPPORTS
A BROKEN TWO PARTY SYSTEM.
AND FOR THAT REASON ALONE,
I'M NOT IN FAVOR OF IT.
>> SOPHIE, OBVIOUSLY ONE OF
THE DOWNSIDES COULD
POTENTIALLY BE THE WIDENING
OF THE GAP OF RURAL VS.
URBAN.
AGAIN, WE TALKED ABOUT
CALIFORNIA, TEXAS, NEW YORK,
ALL THAT KIND OF THING.
BUT YOU CAN JUST SEE IT AND
FEEL IT IN THE COMMENTS ON
WEB PAGES AND FACEBOOK
PAGES, FOLKS WHO ARE NOT FOR
THIS ARE REALLY NOT FOR
THIS.
THEY REALLY FEEL LIKE
THEY'RE BEING PUSHED ASIDE
HERE.
IS THERE A DANGER HERE IF WE
GO TO THIS?
>> DEMOCRACY IS DANGEROUS.
IT'S A PART OF THE BIG
EXPERIMENT.
I THINK IF WE BASED OUR
POLICY ENTIRELY ON THE
COMMENTS ON THE INTERNET,
FIRST OF ALL, WE ALREADY
HAVE EVIDENCE THAT THE FOLKS
WHO ARE MAKING THOSE
COMMENTS MAY NOT, IN FACT,
BE CITIZENS OF THE UNITED
STATES.
I CAN'T IMAGINE US LIVING IN
THAT SORT OF WAY, THAT SORT
OF THUNDERDOME KIND OF WAY
OF HANDLING THINGS.
WE NEED TO MAKE GOOD POLICY,
AND IT NEEDS TO BE
CONSISTENT WITH BOTH THE
VALUES OF OUR COUNTRY AND
THE COMMON GOOD OF OUR
PEOPLE, AND IT SEEMS TO ME
HERE THE VALUES ARE
CERTAINLY IN QUESTION.
I DO WANT TO ADDRESS ONE
THING THAT TOM MENTIONED,
THOUGH, WHICH IS THAT THE
CITIZENS OF THE UNITED
STATES DID NOT, IN FACT,
VOTE FOR OUR CONSTITUTION,
FOR OUR STRUCTURE OF
GOVERNMENT.
AT THE TIME, FIRST OF ALL,
VERY FEW OF US WOULD HAVE
BEEN CONSIDERED CITIZENS,
AND ALSO, OUR GOVERNMENT WAS
PUT TOGETHER BY A GROUP OF,
YOU KNOW, FAIRLY PRIVILEGED
WHITE DUDES WHO, SORRY, GOT
TO SAY IT, WERE CAREFUL TO
MAKE SURE THAT THERE WOULD
NOT BE TOO MUCH POPULAR
INPUT.
AND OUR GOVERNMENT PERHAPS
ISN'T BETTER FOR THAT.
>> AS THE SENATOR MENTIONED,
THIS HAS ONLY HAPPENED FIVE
TIMES IN OUR HISTORY, DOES
THAT NOT PROVE THE POINT
THAT THE SYSTEM IS WORKING
AND IT'S NOT AS BIG A
PROBLEM AS WE'RE ALL TALKING
ABOUT HERE IN 2019?
>> I THINK THAT'S A GOOD
QUESTION, AND I'M NOT SURE
THAT I HAVE A GREAT ANSWER
FOR IT.
IT DOES FEEL THAT THERE IS
SOME ACCELERATION SINCE THE
DAYS OF ADAMS AND HAYES.
SO I GUESS IT REMAINS TO BE
SEEN HOW QUICKLY THIS SORT
OF MOVEMENT MOVES, IF WE'RE
GOING TO SEE MORE OF THAT.
>> I JUST WISH OUR
LEGISLATURE WOULD FOCUS ON
SOMETHING ELSE, LIKE PASSING
THE BUDGET, LIKE PASSING
ETHICS.
THIS TO ME IS A DISTRACTION.
OUR INPUT TO THIS, IT'S SET
UP LIKE THE ELECTORAL
COLLEGE.
SO IF A STATE ADOPTS IT, THE
ELECTORAL VOTES GO THERE.
SO WE TAKE IT FROM 181 TO
185, OR 186, POSSIBLY.
TO ME, IT'S A DISTRACTION
AND FURTHER POLARIZES OUR
VOTERS IN AN AREA WHERE THEY
DON'T REALLY NEED TO BE
FOCUSED.
LET'S ALL WORK TOGETHER AND
PASS THIS DARN BUDGET,
BECAUSE WE HAVE SO MUCH
MONEY, AND SEE IF WE CAN
ADJUDICATE DOLLARS AND RUN
OUR STATE BETTER.
>> I HEAR IT.
PRIORITIES, AS THEY SAY.
>> AND, SORRY, SOPHIE, I
DON'T THINK YOU CAN SAY,
WELL, YOU KNOW, THE WHITE
GUYS REALLY SCREWED US HERE,
BUT THEY DIDN'T SCREW US
HERE.
YOU CAN'T REALLY PIECE APART
THE DECLARATION OF
INDEPENDENCE.
>> HISTORICALLY WE KNOW THAT
THERE WERE ATTEMPTS TO KEEP
THE POPULAR VOICE FROM BEING
HEARD.
>> I DON'T KNOW THE WHOLE
BACKGROUND, BUT WHAT I DO
KNOW IS THAT THE FOUNDING
FATHERS WHO ESTABLISHED THE
DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE,
THEY ALSO DID THE BILL OF
RIGHTS, AND BOTH OF THOSE
SEEM TO BE PRETTY GOOD
DOCUMENTS.
>> YES, BUT THEY ALSO, AS A
PART OF A BIG COMPROMISE,
DID THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE
AND THE SENATE, BOTH OF
WHICH OVERREPRESENT THE
RURAL AREAS.
>> THERE'S A PROCESS TO
AMEND THE BILL OF RIGHTS,
THERE'S A WAY TO ADJUST THE
CONSTITUTION, AND DOING A
POPULAR VOTE IS NOT WHAT
THAT PROCESS IS.
>> THIS IS A WAY AROUND THE
ELECTORAL COLLEGE, AND IT'S
NOT A POPULAR VOTE.
SO I THINK THAT WE'RE STUCK
WITH THIS COMPROMISE FROM
OUR FOREFATHERS.
WE DIDN'T VOTE FOR IT.
WE WOULDN'T BE GIVEN THE
RIGHT FOE VOTE FOR IT.
AND THE HISTORY OF OUR
COUNTRY IS INCREASING THE
RIGHTS OF THE MAJORITY OF
THE FOLKS, WHETHER THEY BE
BLACK, WHETHER THEY BE
IMMIGRANTS, WHETHER THEY BE
WOMEN.
I SEE THIS AS A FURTHER
DIRECTION HERE.
>> THAT'S ALL THE TIME WE
HAVE FOR THIS WEEK.
WHAT A GREAT SHOW.
WE'RE ALWAYS PLANNING THE
NEXT SHOW, THOUGH.
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