In your book,
you share your stories,
you talk about your life,
especially as mayor.
What I loved is,
there's an anecdote
about you sitting at the desk
for the first time,
"Wow, it's day one--
what do I do, where do I begin?"
-Yeah. -What would
your day one be as president?
You know, Obama said,
"I'm gonna go for health care,
I'm gonna shut down Guantánamo."
Trump said,
"I'm here to build a wall."
Everyone has their idea
of day one.
-None of them seem to achieve
it, but... -(laughter)
everyone has their idea
of day one.
What is your day one
as president?
I think day one you launch
a package of Democratic reforms
to strengthen our democracy.
Some things that I think we
could achieve in the first year,
the kinds of things that were
in H.R.1 that the House passed
but that's gonna go
to the Senate and die there.
Making voter registration
easier,
making it easier to get
to the polls,
but also launching things that
are gonna take years to achieve.
Launching a reform
to the electoral college
based on the idea that
you might say is simplistic,
that... you ought to give
the presidency
-to whoever gets the most votes.
-Right.
Um, launching a commission
to dep-- propose measures
that would de-politicize
the Supreme Court.
I mean, big, deep structural
reforms that,
-uh, need to happen, right?
-(cheering and applause)
Um... Not because
I'm under any illusion
that they can get done
in the first few days
or even in the first few years,
some of these things.
But really to remind everybody
that one of
the most elegant features
of our constitutional system
is that it's designed
to be capable of self-healing
and reform.
There have been periods
when we've not been afraid
to have a number
of structural reforms.
In the '60s and '70s you saw
change to the voting age,
you saw the 25th Amendment.
Even though the ERA,
sadly, didn't make it,
having that fight led to things
like Title IX.
And then we've been in a drought
of structural reforms.
Not much has changed.
And so when we do have a change
to structures,
it's usually in
a very cynical way.
So, for example,
a lot's been made
of this idea
of Supreme Court reform,
as though our side of the aisle
are the only ones
who are talking about changing
the Court.
Republicans changed the number
of justices
on the Supreme Court.
They changed it to eight
until they took power again,
and then they changed it back
to nine.
I would like these kinds
of changes to happen not in
an opportunistic shattering
of norms
for one part to get their way,
but through a systematic set
of structural reforms
that will make
our democracy stronger
for the balance of my lifetime.
Because every other issue
that's so urgent, from--
I think climate tops the list,
but climate, income inequality,
education, gun reform,
immigration-- you name it--
is gonna be very hard
to deal with
if we still have such, uh,
such warping of our
democratic system itself.
It's interesting
that you have these ideas
that connect with-- obviously,
Democratic voters--
but you have the challenge
of selling some of these ideas
and the idea of your presidency
to people who may be in the
middle or have voted for Trump.
And you know some of the people
who voted for Obama went on
to vote for Trump.
People have shown that they can
switch their affiliations.
-Yeah. -How do you sell some
of those ideas
to somebody in the heartland?
If somebody's a Trump supporter,
and you say to them,
the electoral college
is something
that needs to be changed,
how do you sell
that type of idea
to somebody who feels like,
-or has been indoctrinated
to believe, -Yeah.
-that those are their ideas?
-Yeah.
I mean, some of it's
just plain English.
Just saying like, "In a
democracy, don't you think
"the way we ought
to pick our president
is to give it to the person
who gets the most votes?"
Um, some of it-- I mean,
that shouldn't be...
That seems very simple.
-Yeah.
-(laughter)
It's so simple
that I don't trust it.
-Something's weird.
-(laughs)
And, you know, what I've found--
'cause we have a lot of people
where I live who did that:
they voted for Obama
and for Trump.
Many of them also voted
for Mike Pence for governor
and me for mayor.
Uh, and one of the things
that shows you
is that it's not
all about ideology.
I think a lot of people
want to know--
they may have values and ideas--
they also just want to know
what these ideas mean
in their life.
And so part of that's when we're
talking about our democracy,
that we're all better off in
a better democracy, but also
when we're talking about
something like health care.
Climate change is a great
example where, I'm afraid still
that when we think about
climate change
our mental imagery around it
is usually something
from the Arctic, right?
It's a polar bear looking
for a habitat,
it's a piece of ice falling off
the ice sheet.
When I'm thinking
about climate change,
I'm thinking about neighborhoods
in South Bend,
in my Midwestern city,
devastated by two
historic floods,
1,000-year flood
and a 500-year flood,
that happened less than
two years apart.
So saying, "Look, this is a
safety issue for you and me."
Not something that's just
happening out there
in the atmosphere or out there
in the Arctic,
but in our homes
and our neighborhoods,
where Nebraska's under water,
California's catching fire,
South Bend's at risk
of greater floods.
And the more we can make it
concrete like that,
the more it's not only
politically effective,
but I also think
philosophically better.
Because if we can't explain
or validate a policy,
in terms of how it's gonna make
-our everyday personal lives
actually better, -Right.
then why are we even out here?
Let me-Let me ask you
about the Mike Pence
versus Pete Buttigieg.
Um, it seems like it started
out of nowhere for many people.
You know, it seemed
Mayor Pete came out--
that's you, by the way--
came out and, um, and said,
"Um, you know, if Mike Pence
has a problem with me,
he should take it up
with my creator."
And this has turned
into a conversation
in and around religion
in America.
You have an interesting idea,
and that is
that for a long time,
-people on the right
have claimed religion. -Right.
But you believe
that there's a religious left
and religion as a whole
is something that people can be
interpreting differently.
-Right. -How-how do you sell
that message,
and do you believe
that on the left,
religion is as strong
as it is on the right?
I think it absolutely can be.
I think there's a great
tradition of the religious left
that's not getting
enough attention.
I mean, you look
at the civil rights movement,
which is certainly a product
of the religious left
in some senses.
You look at the work
that's going on right now,
uh, in order to help lift up
the conditions
from immigrants at the border
to poor people
across this country.
Um, and what I think
it signals to us
is we've got to do away
with this idea
that the only way you can think
about the implications
of religion and politics is
from a right-wing perspective.
I'm careful when I talk
about this,
because anybody
in the political space,
I think,
has an obligation to be there
-for people of any religion
and of no religion. -Mm-hmm.
But I also can't miss the fact
that when I'm in church
and I'm hearing about scripture
about, uh, taking care
of the least among us
and humbling yourself
and visiting the prisoner
-and taking care
of the stranger... -Right.
...uh, and-and lifting up
the poor,
that has
some political implications.
And they are radically different
from the behavior
of-of, uh, conservatives
who present themselves
as religious.
That's just one
of the-the conversations
that has followed you
on the trail recently.
It's been you
and, uh, and Mike Pence.
Um, more recently,
you've been thrust into the news
in and around issues
regarding voters who are black.
-Mmm.
-You know, people have said,
"Mayor Pete, it feels like
you have a blind spot
when it comes to black voters
in America."
You know, uh, whether it be
the fact that in South Bend
when South Bend's economy
rose up,
black people
didn't rise up as much.
You know,
they stayed in poverty.
Um, you know, you've had issues
in and around conversations
around the black police chief.
What do you think
you're gonna do,
or how are you going to appeal
to black voters
and-and connect with them?
Because, I mean, everyone has
an area where they're strongest
-when they're running
for president. -Yeah.
Um, today you met
with Reverend Al Sharpton.
Did you garner any knowledge,
or-or is there any idea
that you will change
in how you communicate
with black voters specifically?
Well, I think a lot of it's
the importance of outreach.
So, there are people
who will find their way to you,
and those are
your core supporters.
And then there are the people
who will never hear from you
unless you reach out to them.
And it's one of the reasons why
we're in South Carolina,
for example,
in a couple of days,
and we'll really be proactively
making sure we're engaging,
uh, whether through the
faith community or in other ways
-with black voters and
black neighborhoods. -Mm-hmm.
This was important
for me back home, too.
Not everybody knows
that South Bend
is a racially diverse city.
We're about 40, 45% nonwhite.
And I prided myself
on-on winning reelection
-in minority districts as well
as whiter districts. -Right.
But that happened through a lot
of lessons learned the hard way.
As you mentioned,
we had some very painful issues,
especially in my first days
and months as mayor,
around race and policing,
uh, around neighborhoods.
We have a lot of
racial inequality in our city.
Not because we want to,
uh, but it's shown me that
good intentions are not enough.
You have to have intention
around your policies,
and we're working on everything
back in South Bend
from black entrepreneurship
to investing in historically
disinvested neighborhoods.
I think the same thing has
to happen at the national level.
Look, these racial inequities
didn't just happen.
They're not an accident.
They're, in many cases,
the consequence
of racist policies,
which means we have to have
not just nonracist policies
but anti-racist policies
if we're ever going to see
these things equalize
in our lifetime.
Uh, and I may not be able
to convince
every voter out there
to be for me,
but at the very least,
I need to make sure
that every voter out there
knows that I'm for them.
(cheering and applause)
It's...
it's interesting
that you say that
and you-you've commented so much
on policies and ideas
that you would have
for the nation,
because, recently,
you know, you took flak,
I think, it was
at the CNN town hall,
where, you know, uh, it was
Anderson Cooper who said to you,
"Hey, um, you're one of the only
or one of the few candidates
who does not have any policy
on their website."
And then your response was,
"Well, I don't--
I don't want to inundate people
with the minutiae of policy."
Uh, what does--
what does that mean, per se?
And-and, you know,
does that mean you don't trust
that people will be able
to handle the ideas of policy?
Or do you think that policy
is not as important
-as people think it is?
-So, I think every candidate
has an obligation to present
the details of our policy.
I've sought to do that
in-in kind of Q&A format,
but I recognize that we'll want
to continue doing that
in written format,
whether it's things
that we'll be adding
to the website
or things
that we'll be putting out
in policy addresses
on specific issues.
What I'm getting at
when I say this though
is that we need to make sure
we don't get trapped
at the level of policy design
without also talking
at a higher level
about the values
that motivate our policies
and at a ground level
about what those policies mean.
-So... -Give me an idea
of what that means.
Well, so, for example,
on education, uh,
you know, I believe some very
technical things need to happen.
Like, um, you know, right now,
when you get, uh,
student loan debt forgiven
on income-based repayment,
uh, that's-that's taxable,
and I don't think it should be.
We'd be better off
if it weren't. Stuff like that.
Technical but meaningful.
Um, but the-the biggest thing
we need to do around education
is have a secretary of education
who believes
in public education.
-So...
-(cheering and applause)
So you're saying focus more
on the values...
-So I want to make sure
that we start -Right. Okay.
at the broad strokes
so that people--
when we get into the more
technical stuff-- and we will--
um, that it's understood
where that's coming from
and how it all fits together,
instead of just presenting
all the technicalities
and expecting people
to be able to kind of guess
-or derive what our values
must be -Mm-hmm.
by looking at all these bullet
points in our white papers.
It's not that I'm against having
the white papers.
It's that I want to make sure
that we lead with our values,
so people can put the papers
in context.
When you speak to voters
who are concerned about
your experience or lack thereof,
you know, you-you hear echoes
within the Democratic Party
or whether it's centrists
who say,
"You know,
this Mayor Pete guy's great.
"He talks a good game,
but, I mean,
"does he have the experience
of Joe Biden?
"Does he have the experience of
Kamala Harris or Corey Booker?
He-he doesn't, and I'm worried
about that lack of experience."
-How do you respond to that?
-I actually think
experience is one of
the best reasons to vote for me.
I know that sounds
a little cheeky at my age,
but the experience
of being a mayor,
I think, of a city of any size
but especially in the strong
mayor system we have in Indiana,
-where there's no city manager,
for example, -Mm-hmm.
uh, you are dealing
with these issues
up close and personal every day,
whether it's homelessness
or poverty or race and policing.
You're not debating them
in a committee.
You are-- you are having
to manage them.
I mean, one minute,
we could be dealing
with an economic development
puzzle about incentives
for somebody who's saying
they're gonna add jobs.
And the next minute, we're
having a Parks and Recreation
controversy
over moving a duck pond.
Um, and-and then that's when
you get the call
-that there's been a racially...
-Did you move the duck pond?
-Uh, we're working on it.
Yeah. Yeah. -Uh-huh.
It's-it's a long story,
but it's-it's got to move.
-The ducks-- the ducks will be
better off. Um... -(laughter)
But, um... but just when you're
having a good laugh about that
is when the phone call comes in
about a racially explosive
officer-involved shooting,
where you don't even have
all the facts.
And you got to figure out what
to say on television
-to try to hold the community
together. -Mm-hmm.
What you learn is that the job
has not just a policy element,
um, not just
a management element
but also
this-this intangible part,
the moral part of just calling
people to their highest values.
It's actually probably the thing
we're most grievously missing
right now in the White House,
and we really need it.
It really matters.
(cheering and applause)
Look,
one thing I've always enjoyed
about you, from the beginning,
is, uh, you're not afraid
to jump into, uh,
the sticky side
of a conversation.
And, uh, I've always appreciated
your ability to take a step back
and go, like, "Oh, yeah, maybe
I could change that or evolve."
The book is fascinating.
Your campaign is proving to be
as fascinating.
Thank you so much
for joining us on the show.
-Thanks for having me out.
-Really had a great time
with you.
The memoir, Shortest Way Home, 
is available now.
Mayor Pete Buttigieg, everybody.
We'll be right back.
