[intro music].
Hi, I'm Nikki La Croce and you're
listening to the Who the Fuck podcast,
inquisitive, authentic, unapologetic,
a safe space for self exploration,
questioning the status quo and
finding out who the fuck you are.
[intro music fade out]
Hey gang,
thanks for joining us for the sixth
episode of the who the fuck podcast.
Our guest today is Kaitlyn Kim and we're
going to be talking about Kaitlyn's
experience growing up as a Korean
American and how it shaped her outlook on
life. We met at work
during some particularly
high stress times and bonded over
our mutual need for comedic relief.
Kaitlyn's shoot from the hip.
Banter resonates because it serves as a
reminder that it's possible to be keenly
self-aware while also
being self-deprecating.
So without further adieu,
welcome to the show. Kaitlyn,
why don't you start by telling
us a little bit about yourself.
Hey Nikki, thanks for letting
me or having me on the podcast.
So a little bit about
myself. I grew up in West LA,
which is pretty close to
like Santa Monica area.
Both my parents are super
Korean and very traditional.
I grew up with an older brother who is
about 16 months older than me and then
two younger sisters.
One is five years younger and then
the other is 12 years younger.
Born and raised in LA, went
to school in San Diego. Um,
and then right after moved to Seattle,
which pissed my parents off a lot.
That's a good jumping off point.
You said you know that your
parents are super Korean.
I'm curious what exactly that means.
So they hold on to those
very traditional values,
meaning they are really
strict, disciplined,
kind of everything that you would think
of a Korean culture they try to instill
in us and kind of led to
some hard times growing up,
but they're just really
strict I would say.
Do you think that that fits pretty well
into the stereotype that's been created?
I, I hate to follow stereotypes.
I don't like to find
myself leaning into them,
although at the same time I can easily
say that I fit certain stereotypes for
myself in many ways and obviously
they're there for a reason. You know,
I think it's a matter of are you taking
it literally and limiting yourself to
believe that that's the only way somebody
can be or is it just spot on because
it happens to be the way
that some people are?
No,
I mean I think the stereotype
is true. Koreans or just,
Asians in general are stereotypically
really smart and that's because we go
through very gruesome schooling and we
are taught to believe that education is
the most important thing no matter what.
So getting A's on everything and just
prioritizing your studies is the most
important thing to get a good job.
So basically from the time you are old
enough to have the capacity to learn,
you're on that trajectory to figure out
how you're going to learn as much as
possible and be able to apply
that as much as possible.
Going into college and
ultimately your career.
Yeah, pretty much. There was no
flexibility when it came to school.
Okay. So what was that
like for you growing up,
particularly as a, as a child?
I think that that feels quite restrictive
in a way that I wouldn't be able to
understand. My parents were
very much academically focused,
but there were also other focal points
that I think pulled away from that and
allowed me to feel like I had a little
bit more freedom in what I was able to
do. Did you ever have that
sense or was it really like,
this is the track you're on?
Yeah, it was a track I was
on and I think, I mean,
every kid is afraid of
disappointing their parents,
but for me specifically,
it was like I would come home with a B
and it would be the end of the world if I
didn't come home with a 4.0 plus
GPA. It was like, what are you doing?
And it was all really centered around
the fact that my parents had an outline
for me. They were like, you
were going to go to school,
you're going to go to med school,
you're going to be a doctor,
and you're gonna make the
family very proud. Um,
so there was no really
deviating from that plan.
So any extracurriculars that would
take away time wasn't on the books.
That's
really interesting.
Could you tell me a little bit about
what your parents do for a living and did
they follow the same, I guess,
protocol for going down that path
of being a doctor or a lawyer?
No, actually no one in my family
is a doctor or a lawyer. Really?
F funnily enough. Right.
Um, but uh, my dad is a,
an accountant and he, his dad
was an accountant as well,
but my mom, I had to stay at home mom,
so they got married really young.
My mom was 21 popped out a kid by 22
in the Korean culture, the man works,
the woman stays at home.
So my mom just raised all the kids
while my dad works these insane hours.
You
said you have an older brother
and two younger sisters.
Are any of them on track or
working in one of those fields?
No, actually I probably came the closest,
but my brother kind of dabbled in a
bunch of different things. But he,
he never went the med route, the med
school route or the lawyer route. He's,
I think in sales now.
And then my younger sister is
in college for communications.
Okay.
Well I can speak from experience that
communications degrees are super useful,
I'm sure when applied to wanting a job
that has health benefits or anything that
would really provide
some sense of security.
But that's why you freelance podcast.
So when you were growing up
and you know your mom was,
it was stay at home and
your dad was working a lot,
obviously you said that
education was a really big focus.
So was your mom really heavily involved
in your educational endeavors or was
that more just kind of keeping
you accountable to them?
She
was involved in the sense that
she would, you know, go to our,
go to our like teacher, like parent
conference checking grades all the time.
I mean, she, I think up
until middle school, I mean,
when you're in elementary school,
there isn't really that much. But, um,
from middle school to high school,
this is where a big chunk of the placement
for high school is going to happen.
So depending where you are and
your math level, history, English,
so on and so forth. So we had
tutors, we had like Saturday school,
we had extra school, like extra
math classes on top of everything.
So she was more involved in stuff that
she would put more and more on me and
provide these like extra help kind
of versus just like school is enough.
Obviously, that
sounds like your parents felt, you know,
they're doing all of this in your best
interest, but at the same point in time,
do you feel like that is actually how it
worked or you do think it was a little
bit counter-productive in that?
It may be I'm coming from a place where
I think that would just stress me the
fuck out and I would have a really hard
time honing in on that in a way that
would maybe be able to please my parents.
So did you feel like that was useful or
did you feel like it was more pressure
that just created maybe
some distance for you?
Yeah, it definitely was more pressure.
It was this pressure to do well and it
was the pressure to not disappoint and
because they were spending so much money
on tutors and so much money on extra
schooling, there was no other choice
except to perform like amazing. Uh,
amazingly well.
I
mean and you had tutors,
were those tutors because you needed
tutors or those were tutors to make sure
that your A's stayed A's?
Yeah, it was tutors.
I mean I will say like I was always in
the math class above me so it was tutors
to make sure that I was studying all of
the material before I started to learn
it and then during it to also do really
well on the test and get through any
towards sort of subjects
that I had issues with.
That just feels to me,
thinking about growing up and knowing
how much is going through your mind and
your body and everything already that
to add that level of rigor and intensity
to the scope of what you're just trying
to navigate as a teenager or a preteen,
it just feels it honestly,
and this is no disrespect to your
family or any culture that prioritizes
education,
but it just feels like it starts to
compromise who you are as a person because
you lose sight of the things that are
making you feel fulfilled and maybe
education does make you feel fulfilled,
but to do anything with that level of
focus certainly takes away from other
things.
Did you have other activities that you
were able to engage with that were your
choice?
Did you play sports or anything like that
that they would have a they would have
approved of or was that not
really on the table for you?
Yeah,
that wasn't. I had no other time,
even if I wanted to pick up a hobby,
it wasn't something that my
parents really supported.
The only thing that they supported was
piano because they put me in piano.
Um, and that was for the,
it's mainly because it looks
really good on the parents.
If your kid is really good
at playing an instrument.
Also the fact that if I wanted to
play a sport, it wasn't really,
it was really allowed because number
one it's expensive. Number two,
it would take time away from actually
studying. Um, and also number three,
it just,
even if I wanted to play soccer or
something like couldn't because my shins
would be all bruised up and as the
first daughter you can't [inaudible] it
doesn't look good on the parents.
So as the first daughter,
does that mean that your other siblings
were able to play sports or do anything
like that?
Oh yeah. So my [inaudible] it's such,
it's crazy.
I feel like even though there is
some of the like male to female,
not discrepancy, but you know,
the double was favored for sure in terms
of the fact that like he got away with
a lot more things.
There weren't as many consequences
as the first daughter you are like,
it's ingrained in you that you
help her parents no matter what.
You kind of are the one
that stays behind for them.
You are the like leader because
I had two other sisters.
It was like I was a second
parent. I pretty much raised them,
but my 20 year old sister played
volleyball. She did whatever she wanted.
No curfew for her, nothing bruises.
If you're playing volleyball,
you're getting beat up.
Yeah. And I think,
I think it's the fact that me and my
brother were so close in age and then my
sister came along five years later.
So by the time kind of my parents learned
how to parent us and then they just
parented differently with each kid after.
I do think that some of that probably
came from just what you're saying and your
desire to move beyond your limitations
of your childhood and the way that you
grew up is that you maybe gave them a
little bit more clarity on what it was
that would be maybe more fair or helpful
to your younger siblings to be able to
not deal with some of the things that may
be frustrated you about like not being
able to play sports or things like that.
Do you think that that played in at all
or do you think it was just sort of,
they shifted gears now it gets
fine, just go ahead and do it?
Well, I will say I was, um, I
think for me versus my brother,
I was extra careful about not
disappointing my parents, but I may,
I voiced that I wish I was kinda like
the other kids that were in my grade that
got to play extra sports and that got to
do all these things on the weekends and
I wasn't like that.
So I think my parents started to see
that they're extremely strict and
disciplined ways weren't gonna. It
wasn't gonna work for every child.
I will say like my brother probably
rebelled a lot more than I did.
And then my 21 year old sister,
she was very much like my
brother, so, and they saw that.
So immediately they put
her in private school,
like an all girls pipe at school because
they are just trying to contain her a
little bit more and try to focus her
studies. And then with the last one,
they were just kind of a free for
all. So what happens when you come on?
She's doing.
So
one of the things that I maybe
should have asked sooner was,
can you tell me a little bit about your
family's experience coming to the States
and maybe how that impacted the
way your parents parent as well?
Yeah, my parents came over here, um, and
they grew up in South Korea, so they,
they moved to the U S when
they were 12 or 13 years old.
So they're more like a 1.5
generation is they like to say.
But when they came here it was
kind of a like token Asian,
like store a stereotype or
slash story of, you know,
they came with $100 in their pocket
and try to make, do with everything.
My dad's dad was a military guy, um,
but he was also really strict. Um,
so he never learned to speak English.
My parents eventually learned
because they went to college here.
But I think because my grandparents
were so strict and they,
they really stuck to
their roots, there was,
there was really no
assimilating for them. So they,
they moved into a very Korean
neighborhood, only had Korean friends.
So I think that's why my parents stuck
to it so much is because they grew up
with only that and they didn't
assimilate as well and they moved us to a
predominantly white area. So we didn't
have Korean friends going up and we,
they stuck to a lot of the
very traditional and kind
of the cultural parts of
the Korean,
like the Korean culture where like we
would eat dinner together all the time.
There was really no going
out and socializing with
other people on the weekends
because it's kind of family type
or you're studying all the time,
things like that. So I,
I see kind of the difference because my
mom assimilated a little bit better than
my dad did and that she was
really understanding about
the fact that we grew up
in a really American culture.
But my dad didn't really,
it didn't click for him that
much. So we would say like, Oh,
we don't want to go on a
sleepover. And he's like, why?
Like you see your friends at school,
why do you need to spend
extra time with them? So, um,
it was always kind of this divide between
like my dad and my mom and then how my
grandparents kind of impinge their
opinions on how we grew up too.
That
raises the question,
how involved were your grandparents
in your life growing up?
Because Korean culture and Asian culture
in general to my knowledge is very like
were saying family focus, but
especially when you look at, you know,
kind of kids starting to take care of
their parents at some point as well.
Plenty of European cultures
are like this as well.
Actually I think American culture is
predominantly the one that's like, no,
it's fine. You guys figured it out. Thanks
for raising me. Good luck with that.
But where you close with your
grandparents or your cousins or anything?
Did your I didn't even, I
guess I don't even know.
Do your parents have siblings
as well that were in the States?
Yeah.
So I mean my grandparents lived down
the street from me so they were kind of
involved in our, um, in the
parenting, in our parenting.
Like I would say that my dad's parents
were probably way more involved just
because my grandpa always had
an opinion on what we did. Um,
and it was almost like we always had to
pass it through to him first before we
did anything. Um, and I,
I truly believe my grandpa was
the reason why my dad was very,
very strict on us growing up because my
grandpa would always be like, you know,
why, why are they growing up
with only white kids? Like where,
where's their Korean friends and
all these kinds of things. Um,
and I think also another big part of my
dad's parents being so strict on us was
because we were the only kids that
didn't know how to speak Korean. Um,
all my cousins knew how
to speak Korean, but um,
and me and my cousins were
all really similar in age.
Did your extended family live also in
proximity? You guys pretty close? I mean,
they all lived in Los Angeles for a
bit and then they moved to Washington
eventually. Okay.
Is that how you sort of like thought to
even come here or was that completely
unrelated? Completely unrelated. I mean,
I came here because of Grey's anatomy and
I saw the space needle and I was like,
that's the place for me. I love it.
It's like a really good just like
finger in the wind decision to make.
I would be lying if I said I wasn't a
massive Grey's fan when it originally came
out. That's a topic for
another day. So you know,
you were saying that some of it factored
in potentially your parents trying to
meet their own parents' expectations,
your dad trying to meet your grandfather's
expectations and that you and your
siblings didn't speak Korean.
Did you ever speak Korean?
Was that something that you grew up with
in your house and then just stopped or
how, how was that for you?
Yeah, my parents, when we were
growing up, we only spoke Korean, um,
up until we were probably when
we were rolled in kindergarten.
And at that point my dad said, we're
not speaking Korean anymore more,
you have to learn English because we
don't want you to have any sort of accent
because he didn't want us to
get bullied. Um, and so he,
they stopped speaking Korean to us
and we only started speaking English,
English, and then we lost it all.
And so by the time we were
probably fourth or fifth grade,
we didn't know how to communicate
with our grandparents anymore.
That's really a drastic shift. Geez.
Did you think that they had a reason
behind not wanting you to speak Korean at
all as opposed to being more bilingual?
Was it the concern with the
accent more than anything?
You know,
I have no idea what was going through
my dad's head because it's like now they
always kind of get mad at us for not
trying to learn Korean on her own and
trying to communicate with our
cousins more and our grandparents.
But like back then it was,
I really think that his,
he just didn't want us to get bullied.
And this is kind of his first time
enrolling us in a school that was
predominantly white.
Yeah.
I mean it's certainly a noble reason in
the sense that it's very kind hearted to
say, I don't want you to be bullied
and I want to protect you from that.
And at the same point in
time, the older you get,
the harder it is to learn a language and
you had already had the foundation for
it.
So there is this sense of how much
more well versed could you be in
communicating had you learned it earlier
and been able to keep it in conjunction
with learning English as opposed to, uh,
having to attempt to learn it
ad hoc on your own as an adult.
But what would inspire
you to learn Korean?
Nothing, no nothing.
Because I don't have, um,
Korean friends or I don't have super
Korean friends and I don't talk to my
grandparents. I think it's, it's
not that I have to talk to them.
I think I've accepted the fact that I
can't speak Korean and I probably will
never learn to speak Korean.
That I just will always rely on my parents
to be kind of the translators for me.
Um, and it's not like I blame them for
not speaking to me while growing up.
They still somewhat speak
Korean, but I like, I just, I,
we lost it when we're younger.
We, they never spoke it to us.
We never really were. Um,
it was never really put in our head that
we had to only learn Korean and that we
had to speak it like all
the time when we're home.
So when they spoke English to us when
we were growing up, it was kinda like,
well we lost it because
we never spoke. Spoke it.
Yeah. And to be completely fair,
I mean that's what most people who have
come to America historically have done.
My ancestors did it. And
you could not speak Italian,
you could not speak German.
You had to learn English because that
was the language that you would be
speaking here. And I
certainly commend the, um,
the approach to be more multilingual now.
I think that there is a much different
way of thinking about it now than when we
were growing up and
that it is more, I mean,
you just hear so many of my friends in
Seattle are bilingual Spanish because
they come from Puerto
Rico, Venezuela, Mexico,
like they're all over the world and
they're able to speak these languages and
have conversations with each other.
And I'm the gringa who can't understand
any of it and I'm just like, sure.
Did you say something about a beer or
the bathroom? That's about all I know.
And so like, like just, um, from
the, the language perspective,
that creates a little bit of a barrier
between yourself and your family and
probably your culture as well.
So you feel like that's accurate?
Oh, 100%. I mean, we were probably
the least like favorite, um,
grandkids because we didn't
speak any sort of Korean.
So especially on my mom's
side, my mom's parents,
my mom's dad is always so mean to me and
my siblings because none of us really
know how to speak Korean
or communicate with him.
So he kind of always calls
us like little they'll,
he'll call me like a little brat and
Korean. Um, that's just kind of like,
that's how I buy relationship
with my grandpa, my mom's side.
It was a very like, surface level,
but it was a lot of him kind
of yelling at my mom for us,
not speaking Korean and not being more
kind of ingrained in that culture.
And it was, I know it was hard
for my mom because you know,
we're growing up in a super
predominantly white area,
so she doesn't want us to feel
left out. But at that same time,
how much does she keep pulling us back?
Um, and especially cause my mom and my
dad have a little bit different parenting
styles.
It was hard for them to be on the same
page when it came to kind of Korean
culture part.
So I feel like you have enough challenges
as a parent to align with each other
on anything,
let alone if you have something that
is so deeply important to you both,
but you have some philosophical
differences on and then
you're trying to relay
that to your children. Yeah. But it
was, it was always my, my dad's way.
So even though they had
different parenting styles,
whatever my dad said it went. Yeah.
I'm speaking to your comment earlier
about that really being the hierarchy in
every household. Yeah. It's whatever
my dad said and it's always very,
it's different now, but it's
like women should be at home.
It's kind of what I
remember growing up with.
Yeah.
So you've talked a bit about what it
was like for you feeling the impact of
being Korean in your Korean home.
What was it like for you when you were
younger and you were in school and you
said you were growing up in a
predominantly white neighborhood.
Do you remember when you first
felt a sense that you were,
you were different in some way? I,
that you were, like I said earlier,
like I didn't want to use the word
minority because it feels taboo,
but it is really just such
a small percentage of the
United States that is made
up of Korean Americans.
So do you have a recollection of when
that moment really came to fruition for
you? Like this is something that
I feel maybe is a bit isolating,
or was that even the feeling that you had?
Yeah, I would say I probably felt
it the most in middle school.
I went to school in Brentwood,
so I think there were three other
Korean kids in my class and they,
um, they actually weren't, they
didn't really grow up Korean American.
They grew up very, so they
didn't speak English that well,
but it was always, I remember
getting comments like, Oh,
like Kaitlyn shit just kind of be grouped
with all the other Korean people just
because like that's who she looks like.
I remember just the clicks and just
like the little groups in middle school
where I had maybe like
three or four white friends,
but for the most part they always,
people were always like, Oh,
just go over to the Korean table.
It's so just like, unbelievably
naive and not surprising. I mean,
we've all seen mean girls, right?
But they're always lumping
people together in that way.
And it's not something that I personally
had to deal with growing up surrounding
the way that I look, it's necessarily,
I mean I got bullied and projected upon
for different reasons for how I looked,
but it was never something that I
could walk into a room and you're like,
that is the obvious difference between
this person and this other group of
people.
And I've had this conversation with my
friends who are biracial or black as
well.
And for as much adversity as I've
faced in my life for other reasons,
I that is just something that really
is so far removed from my capacity to
understand is that like if you look in
a mirror and you look different than
somebody else in enough of a way that's
going to start to define who you are to
them without them knowing you at all.
And did you feel like that was limiting
for you in terms of getting to know
people and building friendships?
Yeah,
I think always people always just referred
to me as a super smart Asian girl.
I mean there's worse.
Yeah, there totally is worse.
But I just remember there was a Korean
click at my middle school that was,
they were very Korean. Um, but
they actually hated me because I,
they said that I was a banana, like
I was too white to be Korean. Um,
and I think it's because I did
so much to fit into like the,
like the cliques that with
all the white girls, um,
I would do things like
try to blonde, like a dye,
my hair a little bit blonder so I can
fit in with them a little bit more. Um,
and if like they got a certain haircut,
I would get the same haircut because
I didn't want to look too Asian. Um,
and I remember the day that I got bangs
and I thought it was supposed to be side
bangs,
but it was like real bangs and I looked
the most Asian I've ever looked in my
life and I just was terrified of
going to school because I was like,
Oh my God, I'm going to look so
Korean. Um, but yeah, it was,
it was limiting in making
friends because I like,
I like I would only be
able to make friends,
like my friend group in middle school,
they were the more like very chill,
like they didn't care about
the parties and everything.
So I think that's why I got
accepted into that group. But if,
even if I tried to talk to another
group of girls that were like, you know,
the beach blonde hair with the blue
eyes and the like really short shorts,
like they would kind of just look at me
weird like me and my brother were just
never really accepted into that group.
That's something that I can
relate to on a different level.
I definitely had those
moments where it felt,
especially in your teenage years,
it is such a weird awkward
time for everybody.
And so the people who are very cliquey
like that and very unaccepting tend to be
the ones that later in life you can
look back and be like, good thing.
Like I didn't fall in with you I guess.
But at the time it's very
disheartening and I had,
you know, the way that I dressed, the
way that I behaved in certain ways,
I mean people were predicting my
lesbianism before I ever came out.
So it was like not really smooth
sailing for me in middle school,
but that similar feeling
of like how do I fit in,
can what can I do to feel like I belong
here and what's scary about that,
and honestly part of why I started this
podcast to begin with is being more
forgiving of ourselves for wanting to
be so like everybody else when being who
we are is actually the
most important thing.
The idea that acceptance has to happen
because people are the same is so
archaic. I think there's
predispositions to it.
Like you were saying about your
parents and this sense of we're Korean,
let's live in a Korean community and
take on Korean culture and really embrace
that people of any ethnicity
tend to do that. I'm not,
I didn't grow up in one of those big
Italian families that does all this stuff
Italian families do.
So I actually felt a little bit isolated
because we didn't have that type of
culture in our family.
And so like there's different things that
come together or fall apart for you as
you're growing up and you,
depending upon where you are,
whether it's at home or at school,
you're doing different things to try
to basically camouflage yourself with
whatever group you're with at the time.
And I would say it wasn't until I actually
moved to the Seattle about a little
over two and a half years ago that
it felt like shedding all of that.
It was asking myself what I
really wanted, what I cared about,
and what was important to me in terms
of being authentically who I am and what
would I do to be able to project that
more than this need to fit in with
everybody else. But this is, I don't know,
almost 20 years later that I'm coming
to this realization after having so many
of those similar sensations
of I don't really fit in here.
I can do everything I possibly try
and I still feel like I'm a little bit
removed from this situation.
And so while there's not
that cultural barrier for me,
I certainly can relate to what you're
talking about because it's something that
at the time you sort of just go through
the motions and you deal with it because
that's all you can do.
But looking back on it,
how do you feel that that's impacted you
as you've grown into your own adulthood
and started making decisions for yourself
about the people that you want to be
surrounded by, are the things
that you want to do in your life?
I think because the Korean
culture was so limiting, um,
and just kind of growing up,
like just being a little bit different
than like all of the people that
surrounded me. Um, and the fact that
I really, really wanted to fit in.
I only made friends with white people,
like only upper dated white people.
Like all of that. It was, um,
like I really like really
rejected my Korean culture, um,
to the point where I'm just like,
I don't want to learn Korean.
I don't really care about it. Like,
I don't like going to Korean church,
any of that because I didn't really
want to like be labeled as that. Um,
and then when I moved to Seattle, when
I was finally kind of able to be myself,
I think a big part of kind of being
away from my parents' influence,
I was like, all right, it's
kind of okay to be Korean.
But I still pretty like
predominantly have white friends.
I think I have like I started to
make a few Korean American friends,
but only the ones that are very much
like me, we were straight up Twinkies,
bananas, whatever you call it. Like
we are, they speak English perfectly.
They grew up the same way I did. Um,
and even if I have friends that kind
of grew up in Korea and came here,
um, and still hold a really
like a very Korean face to them,
it's kind of hard for me to relate to
them cause I just, I know how that is,
but I've just spent so much
time rejecting it then.
Like it's almost like two
different identities I grew up by.
Yeah, that's, that
makes total sense to me.
The closest I can come to it is thinking
about my sexuality and growing up with
like a group of people who knew me for
so many years and I was in a place where
I was never going to be out. I
didn't feel comfortable with it.
I didn't want anybody to know, even
when I lived there, when I was out,
when I was married,
I didn't want to go back to my hometown
and see people that I went to high
school with and have to have
those weird interactions.
So I totally get what you're
talking about in that respect.
It's very interesting to see how you
sort of splice your life to fit where you
are and even when you're
authentically being yourself.
I do think that there is some sense of,
it's more about the level of comfort
that you're talking about, right?
Is that it's not as much that you're
rejecting Korean culture now because it's,
it's less about defiance
and more about now.
It just doesn't really fit with your
lifestyle because that's not how you
basically raised yourself in
that capacity. Right? Like you,
you grew up with very strict guidelines.
This is how you're going to do things.
This is where you should fall on
the spectrum of your Korean culture.
And by pushing away from that, you were
able to say, okay, this is who I am.
This is the life I'm defining for myself.
But there's still something
that inherently draws you
back to what you grew up
with.
Yeah, definitely. I mean, even now I
think about it and I think about like,
who am I going to marry? And my,
my dad is pretty strict about
you only marry a Korean man.
That's it. You don't marry outside
of the Korean, the Korean culture,
no one else is. Okay. So even when I
brought home my first Korean boyfriend,
like, and we did not mesh well. We
were like complete opposites. Was he,
as you would define super
Korean, super Korean,
like everything that
you think about a mom,
like putting their son on a
pedestal, that was it. And I was,
I was like, cut it out. I'm out. Um,
but even like I could never just
bring home whoever I wanted. Um,
so even in the dating
world now for me, I'm like,
there's always something in the back of
my mind where it's like I have to bring
them all Korean guy. It
can't be anyone else.
So now I'm on the hunt for like
a Korean American, but it's my,
it's like kind of that like you're saying
the pulling back where I reject a lot
of a big part of it,
but it's kind of instilled in
me that I need to still uh,
you know,
make my parents happy and it can only
bring home specific type of types of
people and only tell them
specific types of news.
You have to only tell them really good
news or like show them I'm excelling at
life,
but you can't really tell them the
downfalls because then it just makes them
disappointed.
I can also relate to that.
It's probably fairly common for most
child-parent relationships where you know,
it's harder to open up about the things
that are difficult to talk about even in
just recent months with my own parents
having to make the conscious decision to
say, I don't agree with
what you're saying.
And I'm going to tell you what I think
about this and it's hard and I'm going
through an emotional time and I need you
to give me this type of support in this
way. I've never done
this before in my life.
It was terrifying and I guess what they
showed up for me when I actually said it
right.
So I think part of it is as children
with such specific guidelines or rules in
place that we grew up within this mindset
that we've been just accustomed to,
to challenge,
that feels like a disappointment
to to say to my parents,
I want to talk more openly about things
that are hard for me to talk about,
which I don't want to
talk to anybody about.
Speaking with was such a big thing because
my parents have said my entire life,
like you can talk to us about anything.
And I recently said to my mom,
because she said it again, I know that,
but don't you think maybe that the fact
that don't talk about these types of
things makes me feel like I can't,
even if you're telling me I can,
and it's a little bit of
that lead by example mindset,
which it sounds like a little bit in
that in that way too for you is how can I
explain to you that I have a difference
of opinion or a different, uh,
feeling about this?
Maybe it's not good news.
Maybe it's something that I'm struggling
with but I don't want to disappoint
you. And if disappointing you is what's
always at the forefront of my mind.
How am I ever supposed
to do what I really want?
That's best for me because I afraid that
that's going to create distance between
us. Like, is that something that
goes through your head when,
when you are in those moments where
you're giving them good news but you're
maybe feeling something else, like do you,
do you have that kind of push and pull
with yourself, with your engagements,
with your parents or are you sort of like,
"I just don't talk to them
about it and it is what it is"?.
I would say I'm probably
closest to my mom's side.
I am a little bit more comfortable and
as I've gotten older I have been more
comfortable telling her kind of the bad
things or if I'm struggling being able
to be open with her about that. And
she says she's a lot more accepting.
Um, with my dad, it's a,
it's a little bit of a different
story where he's also, I mean it's,
I don't know if it's Korean thing,
but he's just very closed off.
So I'm probably not Korean thing,
but he, there's like no emotions.
Um, that really gets shared. Like I
don't share many emotions with him.
We don't really talk about super deep
stuff because I've only ever really known
him growing up as the really
strict parent that would say no.
Yeah. Um,
and I was more scared to piss off my dad
than I was to piss off my mom because I
think my mom did lead a little
bit more by example for us.
She kind of made it okay for us
to tell her certain things. Um,
while my dad didn't.
I definitely had similar dynamics
with my family growing up as well.
Kind of having the one parent that you
feel is a little bit more of your trusted
resource. So when you were
talking about dating your parents,
having that expectation for
you to marry a Korean man,
do you think that that's
something that like you, you know,
you said you have in the back of your
mind, is that sort of like if it happens,
great, but if not, I'm not
going to like pursue it.
Like are there Korean dating
apps? There have to be, right?
Like have you tried like Korean
date.com or whatever? It probably is.
It's like they have like Filipino Cupid.
We always watch 90 day fiance and
that's the thing that comes up.
Honestly,
I don't know if there's like an app
that only has like for Korean people,
but I mean when I grew up
at, when I was in LA and
we, um, you could put preferences,
so I would usually say Asian just
because I kind of like when I was 21,
22 years old, I'm like, yeah, I'm probably
going to date to marry at this point,
so I should probably only
find an Asian person. Um,
and I think even now I,
if I brought home an Asian person,
like something other than Korean,
my dad would still be
upset, like visibly upset.
Do you think he would have a moment
when that person walks in the door?
Yes.
And the person would know it?
Oh yes. Oh yeah. I don't totally out.
My dad does not hide his emotions very
well. You will see it on his face.
Um, but he would be the most
comfortable with the Korean man,
Asian. Any Asian man would be like second.
And then everything else
is like below the line.
Is there any Asian culture that like
your parents would be really upset about
you bringing home? Because obviously
there's intercontinental conflict.
Oh there totally is. My dad
and it's like it's, it's,
I mean just Koreans and Asians in
general are like really racist.
But let's face it though...
like I mean everyone is.
We can try as hard as possible to
say things exactly politically right.
But there will always be the group
of people who say it's generational.
"This is just what I call these types
of people". And you're like, okay,
you can't stop everybody from
saying everything kind of wrong.
So I mean broad stroke,
everybody has a bit of a cavalier
attitude regardless of where they're from.
It just depends on how,
I guess outward and possibly
like lined with hatred that is,
or if it's more
comedic as we've talked about.
Because you have a very,
part of the reason that prompted me to
even do this episode with you was just
like how much you talk about the Asian
stereotypes in a way that is laughable.
Like you just sort of rip on yourself
all the time and you're like,
"it's just because I'm
Asian" and I'm like, okay,
now I'm just going to start
saying these things to you.
Yeah, I mean I always say like if
you see a bad driver on the road,
it's probably an Asian woman. But I always
tell my, I always tell people I'm a,
I'm an awesome driver
cause I grew up in LA.
So it's like I can get from point a to
point B in like two minutes less than
what Google map says.
I love it. And you're like, "it's
fine. I've hit three cars on the way,
but nobody's counting those"
because I'm an Asian woman, so
that's fine. But I guess, um,
in terms of like my dad who I bring
home and like the Asian culture,
like, like number one, like he would
want a Korean person number two.
Like I would say like Chinese would
probably be the closest thing.
He wouldn't be mad,
but like Chinese would be second or
Japanese and then kind of everything else
falls. Like, it's not even four or
five, six. It's like 10, 11, 12.
Then your dad is like, ok you can
bring home the Korean American.
Yeah, yeah. I can bring
home the Korean American,
but he wants to be able to
like speak Korean to them.
He wants to make sure that they
have a really good, good background.
Their parents are good.
The number one thing is always
they need to have a good job.
Their parents can't be crazy and they
can't come from a broken family and it's
kind of because they are so set in this
idea that if the person I marry has any
of these faults, it's just
gonna come into my life.
It'll proliferate. Interesting.
I can understand the wanting a good job.
I can understand not wanting crazy
parents crazy in laws. Guess what though?
He can't stop that from
happening. Like I unfortunately,
there's too many stories out
there. It's like it doesn't matter.
You don't get to pick those people.
But the broken family, I, you know,
basically being a child of divorce
is what that sounds like. Right.
So is what is that
outlook in Korean culture?
Is that just saved?
You don't get divorced, you
don't, you don't get divorced.
My parents are very much the
type that when you marry someone,
you, you marry them and
you're stuck with them.
Like there is no divorce options.
So even when my dad's friends
were getting divorced, it was,
you can tell that there
was a little bit of a,
you don't want that kind
of attitude. And so for me,
he wants us all married once and
that is done. It's done. So yeah,
that's a lot of pressure too.
Especially if somebody is to be in an
unhappy marriage and ultimately having to
make that choice. I imagine, you know,
there's a lot that goes into making a
decision to leave a marriage in general,
let alone if you're feeling
additional pressure from your family.
So do you feel like that
has added to, you know,
you feeling pressure when you're dating?
Like if I'm going to marry this person
and you'd better be the right one,
like don't fuck it up.
100% I probably wouldn't
introduce anyone to my parents if,
unless I knew they were going to be
accepting of it because I wouldn't want to
put that the boyfriend through that. Like
I would feel so bad doing that to him.
So it totally, it does put
a lot of pressure on it,
which is why when I first
moved home, when I was dating,
I would only look for
specifically Korean American,
Korean Americans because,
because it was like this is who I'm
going to marry and I don't want to date
outside the circle because there's no
use because my parents will never accept
them. So why, why waste my time?
So I have a question about Korean culture
then and homosexuality because I'm not
familiar. Like, I mean I
feel like I know the answer,
but like talk to me a little bit
about it because I don't want to be
presumptuous, but the look on your
face right now, tells me a lot.
I mean,
I'm pretty sure a lot of other cultures
probably have this and they're not as
accepting, but it is, homosexuality
is like not a, another thing.
My dad, when my brother got an earring,
my dad just flipped out. He's like,
what if people think you're gay?
And it's like all these things,
and it's my brother. For
me, my brother was like,
it was never really about that. It was
because all my friends are getting it.
I want to fit in with them and
I don't think it's a bad thing.
And my dad's like, no, no, no, no.
You need to take out right now because
think of how people are going to perceive
you and how it's going
to make us look. So, um,
I think a lot of that is just because
my grandparents were very strict about
that. It was man and a
woman. They're traditional.
So I think there's a lot of
different factors that play into it.
But like if I try to come home
with a woman, my dad would be like,
you're disowned. You're
no longer in the family.
We're not talking like we're cut off.
That to me is sort of like the ultimate
fear to have when I was coming out and I
was pretty sure that wouldn't be the case.
My parents and I had a lot of
turbulence during that whole period,
but there was never a moment where
that happened and I asked that question
particularly because I think that there
is definitely culturally speaking,
like that is a very definitive thing and
if I were growing up in plenty of other
European cultures as well, I mean that's,
I'm not going to restrict
it to Asian cultures,
but there's just a lot of places you can
live where it's like your parents are
saying, we want you to date
and marry a Korean man.
What if it was a Korean woman
and you're like, I'm not gonna,
I'm not gonna marry a Korean man,
but it's she, she's Korean guys.
I got half of it.
Right.
It needs to be the man first and it could
be go through all of the races first
and then it's the woman.
It's like, that's the bottom,
bottom or I just don't get married
at all. They just don't accept it.
They would be like, okay.
Literally like have you gone through
every single country that has any males?
Pretty much. Yeah. You, you need to
have a pee pee. And then my dad's like,
that's better than a VV so...
Oh my God. Um,
so you have talked a lot about kind of
trying to escape the culture to feel more
aligned with who you are personally.
And is there a part of you
now that you've separated,
like you have some more distance between
you and your family in terms of just
literal locale.
Do you feel more proud of your heritage
now than you did when you were younger?
Do you still feel like you're
just sort of, you know,
it's part of you but it isn't
very definitive for you?
Yeah, I think it's the latter.
I think after moving here and
not being super close to them,
I still don't really relate to it.
I will every now and then go
get Korean food and you know,
like the server always try to speak to
me in Korean cause I look Korean and I
just respond in really broken Konglish
it's, and so they're like, Oh,
you don't speak Korean?
I'm like, Nope, I don't.
I'll try to say it in Korean and
I'll, you know, like I'll say, yeah,
I don't know how to
speak Korean very well,
but they always kind of give
me a look and it's almost,
it's almost like they're
disappointed that I don't speak,
how dare you not speak.
But even now I'm like,
I'm finding out who I am and kind of
what I like and I say I'm an alpha female
and I will, I joke about it, but it's,
it's because Korean women are usually
pretty submissive and I completely trying
to like block that out completely.
And I tried to do
everything opposite of that.
No, I can attest to that.
Just professionally speaking,
you're very much a go getter.
You're somebody who has a lot of capacity
to do on your own and I really admire
that about you. You have a great
attitude and you're very self sufficient.
And when you made the comment earlier
that when you were in your early twenties
that you, if you were dating, you
would date to marry. It's like,
I'd actually shocked me to hear you say
that because it's surprising to me that
like you would even have that inkling
in your brain knowing you not in that
mindset now like having years have
passed and you're independent,
you're very much, you know,
I'm living my life for me,
which I admire and I wish in my twenties
I had had the capacity to really be as
well thought out about it
as it sounds like you are.
And I think maybe some of that came
from just your experience growing up and
wanting to figure that
out sooner than later.
Yeah. It was almost kind of
like the tether and it broke.
Finally I was able to just like start
like becoming myself without this
influence of what you were supposed to
be as a Korean and growing up with Korean
fan of Korean families. So it definitely
is not as much pressure being here.
I'm in Seattle and my parents not having
kind of the final say on everything I
do, but it's also the,
the financial freedom of my dad would
kind of always hold that over me.
Like you live under my roof,
it's my rules, my money. Um,
and as soon as I got away from
that, there was no hold anymore.
There was not that like you can't do this.
I mean I will say like
the sort of tiger mom,
tiger dad influence,
You used that phrase and then I was like,
I don't think I should say that first.
It's there though. It is. I, if I called
them with anything, any sort of news,
I can always expect a little bit of the,
the tiger NIST coming out. Um, but
I'm just not as afraid anymore.
Yeah. I will say though,
like when it comes to certain things
like who I marry and I kind of how I
present myself, I still, I will
always still think of my parents,
but I think that's just anyone in general.
I mean, I certainly feel
that way unless there is
just so little don't know,
expectation of you from your parents.
I think most people have that and I think
that's one of the hardest parts about
living life as an adult and becoming who
you are because moving to Seattle was
really the turning point for me and
that was less than three years ago.
I'm 34 now, so it took me getting into
my thirties and actually returning home,
being in the environment that
I grew up in for so long,
I went to school in Connecticut
so it wasn't the same area,
but generally speaking, the
Northeast, the Northeast,
and when I went back and I
saw just something as basic
as the old exit sign for
one of the places Holly and I used to
live and I just felt so much pressure that
I would never have understood that I was
under while I was still there because I
was in it and I was in the thick of it.
And I love the way you described it as
being a tether and the tether breaking
because my entire life I spent
trying to get out of Pennsylvania.
I think that when you're in a place for
so long where people are very similar or
the way that they think about things is
very specific and you just become sort
of an extension of that. Whether
or not that's what you want,
it's really hard to pull yourself away
from it no matter how hard you try.
Like I mentioned earlier,
I mean I graduated when the economy
crashed and I had every intention to move
out to California immediately and
pursue a film career and it was like,
no, I need health benefits.
I you couldn't be on your parents'
insurance at the time. So it was like,
I don't want to be like living
in a box and being afraid of,
God forbid anything happening to
me and just trying to make it.
And so I opted for more stability and by
doing that I kept myself in place for a
really long time and I could not
be happier that this happened.
I just wish it had happened sooner because
I would have loved for that tether to
have been cut 20 years ago,
25 years ago, 30 years ago.
I don't care. I just,
I knew that I didn't belong where
I was and being on the West coast,
it's like this is my vibe.
I mean I just got back from Hawaii and
I just keep looking at like the pictures
of myself and I have like a baseball
cap on for the first time in like,
I don't know, 10 years because I just
look like a little boy in them now. But I,
I was like, you know, this is who I am.
Like I'm gonna throw on my Billabong shirt
and my sweats and my baseball hat and
just like be who I am. I spent
so much of my life being told,
this is what you should wear.
This is how you should look.
This is what you should say.
This is what you should do when you
get to make the choices for yourself.
I can still be a very polite, well-spoken
human being wearing sweatpants.
Sometimes.
Yeah. It depends on the day. Sometimes
I'm just profane and annoyed,
but it did really, really depends
on who we've had meetings with.
Well, it's, I mean I,
people ask me if I'm going to
move back to LA and I say never.
That's what I, I've said
to Holly and I are like,
would you move back to the East coast? No.
No. And it's a big part of it is
because I want to keep that tether
broken. Because if I go back to LA,
I'm not far enough from my parents that
the influence will always still kind of
be there. But she's like growing up there,
it just almost would just bring me back
to when I felt like I had to always just
succeed and not ever fail
there. But then here it's just,
I don't have that extra set of
pressure and it's really like, no,
I'm just kind of me against like I just
have to keep pushing myself for myself,
not because my parents are in my ears
and they're like, yeah, I do this.
Do that. Like you, you
could still be a doctor.
And even when I first
moved here, my dad's like,
there's always a chance you're not
too old. You can still be a doctor.
And it's like, dude, I got
a job, I'm doing fine. Um,
but there's always that little like even
if I tell them really good news about
work, like if I get promoted or
anything, he's like, Oh, that's good,
but could have been a doctor or like
you could have lived, been living here,
rent free. He's under our house.
Promoted to an MD. Yeah, pretty much so.
But it's,
it's like that feeling of never being
able to like level up in their eyes that
I'm like,
I don't think I can ever move back under
their influence because I have to kind
of just be by myself and learn by myself.
And they're very much the type
of types that if you fail once,
like you can't ever
make that mistake again.
And I can see myself kind
of adopting that as well.
Do you think that you put
in an extraordinary amount
of pressure on yourself,
even with the distance, because
that's the sort of ingrained in you?
Yeah, totally. It's just,
it is ingrained in me that it's so hard
to break away from that and that's the
mindset that you, you don't ever just,
you just can't even make a mistake, I
think is what drives me to always like,
like do better.
But it's almost like a vicious cycle
where it's like you get into like the
analysis paralysis where I'm like,
Oh, if I do this, I might fail.
But what's the best path forward?
Trying to have a contingency plan
for everything. So if I fail,
then I know that at least I have a
backup plan. I'm very similar to that.
I would say partially because my parents
and their expectations of me and the
other part of it is just me
being me. Like I'm neurotic.
I want things to be done right.
I actually was saying to
somebody yesterday that I
want so badly to be perfect
at everything right away, even though
logically I know that's not possible.
It's not even realistic. Like nobody's
perfect at everything right away,
but it stops me from doing things that
I would otherwise do because I'm so
afraid of failing that if I
don't have that contingency plan.
Whereas if this doesn't work out, then
I've at least got this in my back pocket.
I mean,
to just go out there and be bold and try
something without a net is really scary
and to know that you're putting
that pressure on yourself is, I
want to say it's freeing in a way because
you know it's not coming from somebody
else,
but at the same time it also holds you
captive because I think for me at least
personally,
it restricts me from doing certain
things that I might've done sooner.
Like honestly, even this podcast
like I really to fail at,
this is just not an option for me and a
contingency plan is me going back to my
day job for the foreseeable future without
any sort of idea of how I'm going to
keep moving with something I
can be more passionate about.
Do you think that the pressure that you
put on yourself is something that has
helped you accelerate in your
career in the way that you want?
Or do you think that it's possibly been
limiting because you're maybe not even
exploring all of the potential that you
have because of that fear of failure?
Um, I would say it's the latter,
more so just because I
don't, I have that pressure.
I have the pressure on myself to not
fail that I won't try new things.
Um, however,
I do think that kind of the first step
of like moving from LA to Seattle,
uh,
and just doing a one way trip or a
one-way flight was kind of the first step
that I took. I was like,
it might fail and he don't have a
contingency plan cause I quit my job and I
sold everything. Um, that I was like,
all right, well I can do it. And I,
I did it and it was kind of proved to
myself that it's okay to take these sort
of chances and my career
now I'm 100% where it's,
it's more,
it's not even just I am afraid to fail
and I'm afraid to start new things,
but it's because a big part of it is
because I don't want to disappoint people
and another part of it is also just
because like I don't know what,
I don't know.
We're really similar in that way.
When Holly was asking me if you
guys had met yet and I said, yeah,
I think you guys met really briefly one
time when you were at our place before I
said I really enjoy talking to Katelyn
because I feel like you remind me of
myself in the least
narcissistic way possible.
But I think that you have
this ambition that is really,
it really radiates from you in a way
that is super influential and really
enlightens those around you to like what
they're capable of because of how you
think about things and
like to problem solve.
And that's why it's been really cool
to work with you in a professional
capacity, but also to get to know you
personally because you're also much more,
I think, mature and in tune with
yourself than I was at your age.
And to be honest,
it's probably because you are
spending time with yourself,
learning about yourself and giving
yourself the chance to really find out who
the fuck you are because
without that time,
especially coming out of an upbringing
that was so structured for you,
how could you not just fall in line
and do exactly what's expected of you?
I mean, you literally said,
that's great that that's
what you guys want for me,
but I'm going to go find
what I want for myself.
And I think that's really courageous and
I think it's really inspirational and
important for people to look
at and consider when they're
thinking about what it
is that they want out of life. Because
we spend a lot of time trying to people,
whether it's our parents or bosses
or siblings or whoever, or spouses,
it might be, it could be anybody
and you don't see enough people.
I think taking the chances
to give themselves to the
opportunity to fail or to
find themselves and say,
this is why I do it this way because
this is what I like and I just am really
glad that you were able to
have this conversation with
me and be so candid about
your experience and how these
things have guided you in your life.
One last question before we end the show.
What would you say if
you were to have kids,
do you think that you would do something
differently to help them feel maybe a
more healthy connection with their Korean
culture because it's something you do
want them to still understand or or grow
with or do you think that you want to
raise them a little bit more in what your
life has been where it's more focused
on trying to kind of find
that path for yourself?
I would not push the
Korean culture on them.
I would not push all of
these extra holidays,
we have and kind of the bowing down to
the elders and never disrespecting them
and not being able to talk back.
I grew up without a backbone and it's
been really hard for me to kind of get a
backbone and now I don't
let people walk over me.
But I would always do that before.
Actually surprises me a
bit, to be honest with you,
because I see your personality now
and it's really contradictory of,
of of that concept. I mean,
I've seen you feel hesitant
to react to things,
but you, you have a strong stance.
I think the last two and a
half years I've been here,
that's where I grew the
most. And so, but back then,
like I would never talk back to
my parents ever. And I don't,
I don't like that feeling.
I don't like that feeling of feeling
defeated all the time. So for my kids,
when they're growing up,
I will always say it's okay
for them to tell me things.
I would ask them to tell me if they got
thrown into jail one day and I would
make it okay. And I would, I
would, I would lead by example too,
and I would be very open with them
about my kind of, how I'm feeling,
my pitfalls and just if I'm
feeling like sad or anything,
I want to show emotion to them because
I want them to feel comfortable showing
emotion to me. Um, and I, I mean,
especially with my parents
because they do speak English,
I wouldn't feel as bad if they
didn't learn Korean going up.
But just around like dating too,
I would say you date whoever you
want as long as they make you happy.
And it's because I've
seen marriages like that.
I've seen friends who've grown up with a
very open family and I loved it because
they're so honest with each other.
And you don't feel like you have two
identities. You don't have, you know,
you have to identity with your friends
and you have to identity with your
parents. Um, and for me
and my kids, I have them.
I want them to have one identity.
I want them to know who they are and
just feel comfortable with whatever they
wanna do. Growing up.
I love that.
I think that that was just
such a beautiful explanation
of feelings that I've
had as well for myself and it's something
that I value a lot as far as your
perspective because you can't enforce
something on somebody and expect the
results that you want if
that person doesn't feel it.
And I understand where your parents have
come from in terms of why they raised
you the way that they did.
I understand why my parents
raised me the way that they did,
but when you describe that feeling of
seeing other families and their relatives
in their closeness because their
closeness wasn't prescribed,
it was more organic, right?
It wasn't like we have to spend family
time together and be a family and like
try harder to connect with each other.
It was more because you're open and
you're authentic and you're vulnerable.
You just are closer.
But there is something that
really validates you as a
person when you can walk
into a room and show up fully and not
feel like you're disappointing somebody.
And I think that's for me what resonates
a lot about most of what you said
today,
which is there is a lot of good in our
parents and how they raised us that
created the strength that we have and
our capacity to learn and deliver things
and be successful human beings.
But there is also the challenge of
feeling constantly like you are just,
you know, one mistake away from
being a total failure in their eyes.
And that's just such an unhealthy way
to perceive yourself and whether or not
that is truly how they would feel.
The fact that we sense that
and our anxiety is bred
from that potential feeling
is just not the right way
to go about your own life.
And so I really applaud you for making
the changes to your own life that you
needed to find yourself in a healthy
way to be able to create a world,
uh, both within you and around you.
That gives you some sense of humanity
and that like unique connection to
yourself that you didn't have growing
up and that it sounds like you really
sought with others to try to collect,
you know, how do I fit in here?
What's the right thing for
me to do? How should I look?
What should I be doing to
make sure I'm, you know,
checking the boxes for whoever I'm
around and that's so relatable to me.
It's not fair that we grow up many of
us with that mindset regardless of the
reason as to why we feel like we don't
fit in when we are just who we are and
everything that you've said about who
you are now and your ability to grow from
who you were as a child and teenager,
it just says a lot about you as a
person that you have strength that is
admirable and a very strong ethic to
prove yourself to yourself and that you
don't owe an explanation
to anybody except you.
100%
I
really appreciate you joining me for
this episode of the who the fuck podcast
Kaitlyn. Well gang,
that's all for this episode
of the who the fuck podcast.
Thanks for listening and a big thank
you to Kaitlyn Kim for sharing her story
and her time.
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Until next time [outro music].
