I'm here in Bangkok on the
sidelines of the Asean Summit.
And I've just finished speaking
to Mahathir Mohamad, Malaysia's
prime minister.
We talked about his
change in stance on China,
as well as the succession
saga in Malaysia.
But we started off talking about
Jho Low, the fugitive financier
who allegedly is at the heart
of the multi-billion dollar
embezzlement scandal
involving 1MDB.
The US Department of Justice
has reached a settlement
with Jho Low.
Did this deal come
as a surprise to you?
Well, the amount is much bigger.
If he had said the full amount
we would be very happy indeed.
But this is really
a part of the money
that was made use by Jho Low
to buy properties, et cetera.
So we are still
going after the rest
of the money that has been
made use of by Jho Low.
In light of this
settlement, is Malaysia also
negotiating with him directly?
No, we have no contact with him.
We don't even know where he is.
Malaysia has said
repeatedly that it
would like Goldman
Sachs, which has arranged
1MDB bonds, the proceeds
of which allegedly
were used to then
obviously be part
of the embezzlement of 1MDB.
And Malaysia has always said
that Goldman should return
$7.5bn.
Is that a realistic
sum in your view?
The amount is not beyond
what their role is worth.
Goldman Sachs has
offered less than $2bn.
Less than $2bn.
So we are not satisfied
with that amount.
Do you have a sum in
mind of an alternative?
No, I'm not supposed
to say that.
The DoJ alleges that also
other international banks
were apparently involved
in helping, unknowingly.
Are there concrete plans
of going after these banks
as well?
Where we can prove
that it is our money,
we would make requests for the
banks to freeze the account.
Can you give us some names?
I think the Deutsche Bank
was mentioned, and UBS.
You have said in the past
that freedom is not absolute.
And now we are seeing
the rise of populism
in many western countries.
Is this a sign that western
democracies are doomed?
Western democracy, I think,
you have taken things too far.
There must be limits and you
must recognise the limit.
And accept that as part
of the democratic process.
There seems to be a
retreat from the US
under the current Trump
administration from the region.
What does this mean to you
as a southeast Asian country,
also in light of the
potential of China's rise
and China filling this gap?
For Malaysia, the current
trade war between China and US
has resulted in lots of people
who invested in China wanting
to move away from China.
And Malaysia is one
of the destinations.
In terms of your
relationship with Beijing,
it seems like there's
been quite a reversal
since the very beginning of your
latest term as prime minister.
It seems to be quite a 180.
Why did this occur?
Well, I was reminding
not only China,
but other countries
that there is such
a thing as new colonialism.
We should avoid this idea
that you can colonise
through economic power.
So that was what I was
saying, and it's not
directed at China alone.
In the China context of
things, when you first
came back to power you
mentioned that, for example,
some of the
infrastructure projects
symbolised unequal treaties
between China and Malaysia.
And obviously if
one does believe
in the national security threats
that the US, for instance,
outlined with Huawei, I
mean, are those two risks not
a potential form of colonialism?
We are not worried
about the Chinese.
We have been very
friendly with the Chinese,
even during the first
time I was prime minister.
But the previous government
entered into agreements
to consult this railway
line, which is not really
necessity at the moment.
In the future, maybe.
But the cost was horrendous.
It comes to about 60bn
Malaysian ringgit.
We cannot afford that.
So, if possible we
thought it was simply
just dropping the project.
But we found that we are
obliged under contract
that if we unilaterally
drop a project
we have to pay compensation.
And the composition
amount is huge.
Speaking of your
relationship with them,
I wanted to talk to you a
little bit about Khazanah
Nasional, the sovereign wealth
fund of which you are chairman.
Now earlier this year
there was the announcement
that the founder of
Chinese tech firm SenseTime
and a senior
executive of Tencent
joined the Khazanah board.
Why did Malaysia decide
to include these two
Chinese executives?
Well, these people are
obviously very smart.
They have been able to
manage their companies well
and we thought
that the injection
of their ideas into Khazanah
would be very useful,
especially as we
had to deal a lot
with Chinese foreign investment.
Would it also
potentially help Malaysia
to sell the around
$33bn worth of assets
that Khazanah has potentially
to Chinese investors?
We have no plans to sell
to foreign companies.
As far as possible, we would
like to sell to the locals.
But, of course, if we
need the money and we
need the money to repay
loans and all that.
We will consider the necessity
for disposing of certain assets
to foreigners.
What do you think about
some of the Asian leaders,
such as Indonesian President
Joko Widodo or Pakistani leader
Imran Khan, in terms of their
relatively weak responses
and stances versus how China
is dealing with and treating
Uighur Muslims in Xinjiang and
what is your stance on that?
Well, our people
have been there.
They are - perhaps they were
not shown the whole thing,
but any - what they saw did not
show that the Chinese were very
badly ill-treating
treating the Uighurs.
But we are aware of the Uighurs'
desire not to be part of China.
Turkey, which is a strong
partner for Malaysia in terms
of the economy and defence,
has come out and given a stance
with regards to the Chinese
treatment of Uighurs saying
that it is a shame on humanity.
And you, yourself, have spoken
up in defence of Muslims across
the world.
So do you have anything
more to say about what
is happening in Xinjiang?
We would like to know more
about what's happening
before we make our stand.
But with Turkey, of course,
these are Turkic people
- the Uighurs are Turks.
But also Muslims.
Yes, they are Muslims, but
everywhere else Muslims
are oppressed.
In Europe, in America.
There are oppressed.
This is something that is
almost the norm at this moment.
The United Nations has
said and confirmed that...
they claim that about
1m Uighurs are now
kept in what they have
described as internment camps.
This, obviously, is an
extremely problematic situation
and one that has been well
documented also by the UN.
So do you think that this is
enough information for you
to take a stance as, obviously,
a leader of a Muslim majority
nation in the region?
There are so many
problems with Muslims.
Why, the Rohingyas
are being expelled
from their own country.
This is a much bigger
problem than the Uighurs.
What's further evidence
would you need, apart
from an institution
like the UN confirming
that this is happening, in
order for Malaysia to stand up
against this.
Well, if we see massive
emigration of the Uighurs there
because of the ill-treatment,
as happens in Myanmar, then,
I think, the world must
take notice and I...
we'll join the
world in protesting.
Another very topical
and important issue
concerning Malaysia
and Malaysian politics,
obviously, the
issue of succession.
Will you step down in 2020
as originally planned?
No, there was no actual
date or time mentioned.
But the actual time I will be
there depends on the problems
that we face.
I've had some experience
resolving financial problems,
so they want me to solve their
problem before I sit down.
At the beginning of
this latest term,
you mentioned that Anwar
Ibrahim would be your successor.
Is that still the case?
Will he succeed you?
Yes, it is.
It is a promise that I made.
What do you respond
to the theory
that there is a potential that
you might not step down at all.
I've made many mistakes in
appointing my successors,
so I don't mean too make
another mistake this time.
So do you think
that at the moment
Mahathir Mohamad remains
maybe the only person that is
able to run Malaysia right now?
At the moment, maybe.
