

### Frequently Asked Questions:

### Jesus' Identity

### By

### Jesus (AJ Miller) &

### Mary Magdalene (Mary Luck)

### Session 2

Published by

Divine Truth, Australia at Smashwords

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Copyright 2016 Divine Truth

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### This ebook is a collection of answers given by Jesus (AJ Miller) on the topic of his identity. The answers were given in an interview with Mary Magdalene (Mary Luck), who posed frequently asked questions from members of the media and public, on 5th August 2013 in Wilkesdale, Queensland, Australia. In this session Jesus answers more questions about his identity, including; why he has not 'proven' to the world who he is, claims that he is insane, what happens when people leave his teachings, what he believes are the real reasons why most people reject his claim, and the contrast between people's general personal interactions with him and what they state about him to others.

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Table of Contents

1. Why haven't you proven you are Jesus?

2. Why don't you speak Aramaic to prove that you're Jesus?

3. Why don't you turn water into wine to prove that you're Jesus?

4. Why don't you "insert miracle" to prove that you are Jesus?

5. How could you prove that you are Jesus of Nazareth?

6. How many people have listened to your teachings?

7. Why does the media often find you logical but call you crazy?

8. How many people completely believe you are Jesus?

9. What do most people say when they leave your teachings?

10. What reasons do people give for not believing you're Jesus?

11. How do you feel when people reject teachings because of your identity?

12. What are the real reasons people cannot believe you're Jesus?

13. What do you do about the reasons why most people reject you?

1. Why haven't you proven you are Jesus?

**Mary:** You're constantly asked to prove that you are Jesus. Why have you not done that?

Well, there are so many reasons why I haven't done that so, let's go through a few of them: firstly, I'm not God, now, people say, "What's that got to do with proving that you're Jesus?" well, for the majority of people on the planet, whenever somebody says that they're Jesus, all of the Christians, basically, assume that that means you're saying that you're God, and in fact a lot of people assume - as a result of Christian beliefs - assume that it means that you're saying that you're God and I'm not saying that I'm God at all, in fact, I've said over and over again that I'm not God. Now, because I am not God, I can't do what God can do. So, God is omniscient, I'm not; God knows everything, I don't; God can look at the future and the past very clearly, back and forward as far as the universe has existed, I can't; I am just a person, a man, and nobody really wants to hear that. So everyone, when they hear the words, "I am Jesus" they automatically assume that that means I'm saying, "I am God".

And therefore, they then want me to perform all the things that they believe God would perform; of course, God wouldn't perform many of the things they believe either; in fact, there's proof of that, and that is that God's not performing them right now, so therefore, God wouldn't do it; God only does what God chooses to do; and there are reasons why God chooses to do things the way God chooses to do them; but, because they assume that Jesus is God, or they assume the Bible belief that I am God, they then assume that I have to perform things that they believe God would perform, ironically which God hasn't performed, either. So it's a huge sort of an issue for people and I feel that the fact that I am not God confronts the majority of people's belief systems, even the belief systems of people who are not Christian, ironically.

So what we find is there is this presumption, even in atheists, when they're asking me questions, that because I am saying I'm Jesus, that means I'm saying I'm God, and I should be doing God-like things in order to prove that I'm God or their conception of what God would do, and because I don't do those particular things that it means that I'm not Jesus: now, there's a whole heap of illogical thought in that entire process.

**Mary:** There also seems to be the assumption on the part of even atheists that you're saying that you're Jesus, and that you'll do exactly what the Bible - even though they don't believe in the Bible - that you will do the things that it says that you did in the Bible.

Yes, I probably was going to bring that up down the track. I think, firstly, it's important to focus on this issue of God, like what people's assumption or presumption is of what God would do: the reality is God has access to every place in the universe right now so, if God's not doing something right now, there are good reasons why God's not doing it; and just because Jesus is on earth, it doesn't mean, even if Jesus was God, it doesn't mean that Jesus would do anything other than what God's already doing. So, I can't see any logic in that statement, or in any of the belief systems about if I am saying I'm Jesus, therefore I'm saying that I'm God because I am not God, I am not going to be doing the things that God could do, and I think that's very important for people to understand. So that would be my first thing, I think, that would need to be raised on the issue.

Yes, with regard to God and God's Laws, the reality is God is never going to break God's own laws in order to prove or disprove something: and I think, oftentimes, humankind expects God to break God's own laws; also, what humans view as miracles are not miracles from God's perspective - they are just the perfect enacting of God's Laws - and, in fact, what people believe are miracles is not what I believe are miracles; I believe there's no such thing, in fact, as a miracle with the exception of the miracle of the creation of life, which God has engaged, I don't believe there are any miracles in the universe in the sense that everything that is, or does happen, in the universe happens for a reason. There's a law controlling the event and so anything that happens in the universe will have God's Laws controlling the event in some way.

So, a person might say, "It's a miracle that the earth revolves around the sun." Well, I would say, "No, it's not a miracle; it's one of God's Laws. It's the Law of Gravitational Pull", and speed and everything working in harmony with each other that a body, such as the earth, can travel through space going around another body that is much heavier, obviously and the speed at which we travel determines the distance and so forth. All of these things are not really miracles; they are facts about the creation of God, God's Laws; and, in fact, everything that happened in my first century life are just facts about God's Laws, that's all, they're not miracles at all; and what we see as miracles, are only because we rarely see these laws being engaged on the planet; and because I was in a condition where I could engage more of the laws of God due to my condition of love, I then could put into practice more of God's Laws than the average person could do in the first century and that's the only thing that caused any of the miracles to occur.

**Mary:** So, you're saying healing people of illnesses: that you were just acting in harmony with some of God's Laws in a way that we commonly don't act today on the earth.

Most people on the planet have no knowledge of them at this point in time, and so therefore they cannot engage those particular laws. It's a bit like before we discovered the Law of Aerodynamics, we only engaged, generally, the Law of Gravity; or, we also engaged what's called 'lighter than air' forms of transport; so, we could not engage any 'heavier than air' forms of transport because of not knowing the law, the Law of Aerodynamics; but once we knew and understood the Law of Aerodynamics, now we can engage 'heavier than air' transportation, controlled transportation through the air, by engaging another law and it's only because we know that law that we can engage that particular thing. And it was exactly the same with me in the first century: it was only because I knew more laws than the average person, and could engage them because of my condition of love, that I could do anything in harmony with what God would do.

And this proves that I am not God, because the reality is I am fully governed by all of God's Laws just as the average person is; and therefore, I don't see any so-called miracle as being a miracle, to me it's not a miracle, it's just an engagement of another law that the majority of people didn't know or understand at the time, that's all it is. It's not anything special other than that and while it is amazing discovering God's Laws, and then being able to engage them, it's not a miracle; it's a fact of life, it's a thing that God's created as a fact of life; and we, as humanity, only do not engage it because we don't know, we have not yet discovered all of God's Laws, and, in fact, my opinion is we've discovered very few of them and as a result we almost see anything as a miracle, when it's not really a miracle.

**Mary:** So, then, you're saying that one of the reasons why you haven't proven that you're Jesus is that you're not God and a lot of people want you to prove that you're God in actual fact.

Exactly, and it's impossible for me to prove that I'm God, because I'm not God: I've said to people, "I am not God" and if you want to believe what the Bible tells you - or I would actually argue that it's not even what the Bible tells you, but rather your interpretation of what the Bible tells you - and if you would like to believe that, then that's up to you, but it's not true; and, therefore, any desire that you have for me to prove that I am God, or prove that I should be able to do God-like things, are all just based on completely erroneous information and really, I can't engage any of that form of proof.

**Mary:** Okay, so you're saying that you're not God, and so you're never going to prove that you're God.

And I'm never going to be able to do the things God would be able to do.

**Mary:** Yes, what about this issue you've just mentioned, the Bible, in that it's not fully factual?

Well, that's the other thing, isn't it? That a lot of people ask me to do things that the Bible says I did in the first century. Now, of course, most of what the Bible says I did in the first century, I didn't actually do, so that's interesting in itself; like, the reality is, things like walking on water, turning the water into wine, multiplying the loaves and the fishes, these were all embellishments by people who were quite deceitful after my death, who wanted to embellish my life in order to gain converts to Christianity - and it wasn't even the Christianity I taught - it was already a modification of what I taught. So, they were trying to gain converts using me as some kind of so-called god that did all these special things, which I never did: I never claimed to be God on earth in the first century and I've never claimed so since, either.

It's only people after me who have claimed those particular things. Now, some of those people claimed that because they did actually think I was God, because of the things that I did, and they are wrong. Like, it's just that they're wrong: I said I don't see any so-called miracle as being a miracle, it's just engaging the Laws of God in the manner of understanding; and so many of the things contained within the Bible are false about my life. Now, when people say to me, "Well, you should do this because that's what you did in the first century." I go, "Well, firstly, I didn't do that in the first century for a lot of reasons and secondly, I'm not going to do the same things I did in the first century again, either like, I've grown two thousand years, it's not like I'm the same person as I was then, I've changed quite significantly since then and so I'm not going to do the same things that I did in the first century. And, also what the Bible says I did in the first century, is completely wrong, that's not what I did."

And there are some things that are right, and some things that I said are actually in the Bible in the way that I actually said them, and so forth but there are also quite a lot of things in there that I did not say, never would say, and never could say because they're all wrong: and so to actually then want me to do something that the Bible says I did in the first century, which I never did, is not a logical proof that I am Jesus.

**Mary:** Okay, so, you're saying that a lot of what's contained in the Bible about your first century life is not factual and so, you're never going to do them, you didn't do them then, and you're not going to do them now. There are some things that you did - you said just now, that there are some things that are recorded in the Bible that you did do.

Certainly.

**Mary:** So why aren't you doing them now?

Well, this comes to the point of what happens when you become at-one with God. See, in the first century, as is recorded in the Bible, there was no record of me ever performing any so-called miracle - which remember I've said there's no such thing as a miracle anyway - but there's no record of me performing any so-called miracle before I was 30 years of age, after my baptism by John, which I was in my 31st year by the Jewish reckoning of counting, and I, before then, could not perform any of these things.

Now, I had a choice before then, of how to perform things: one way was that I could allow myself to be over-cloaked by a spirit, and many people do this today, where they let themselves be over-clocked by a spirit, and then they can perform something that the average person on earth can't perform - but which the spirit knows about - for example, reading a person's mind, they might be able to read a person's mind - every single person on earth can do it once they engage the law, once they understand how it works- but the person who's doing it is only just having a spirit tell them the thoughts of another person, and they're open to the connection between themselves and the spirit.

Now, I decided in my first century life that I didn't want to do that, I felt it was quite deceitful, I felt it was an erroneous position that a person on earth formed because of some unhealed emotion and the spirit worked through them for some reason that the spirit had as an unhealed emotion which was out of harmony with love: so I didn't want to engage doing anything special using a spirit to over-clock me.

So I decided all I wanted to do was become at-one with God in the way that God displayed love, and then if God wanted to do anything through me, then I would be that vehicle, if you like, to get those particular things done. and it was only by engaging the law that I could do that, I understood that: I understood that God's Laws were very much defined by God, and were very fixed and immovable; and all I needed to do was bring myself into harmony with the way in which those Laws operated in order to perform certain things. So, before I was 30 years of age, I could not perform any so-called miracle, unless I allowed a spirit to over-clock me, which I did not wish to do - now, after I was 30 years of age, I became at-one with God and just before my baptism by John, I became at-one with God; at that point in time, I knew far more of God's Laws than the average person who lived on earth, including John, himself; as a result, I could engage some of those laws, which included being able to heal people under certain circumstances, as long as the law was engaged.

So, I couldn't heal everyone: I only healed certain people under certain circumstances because the law could be engaged in their position; and I didn't cure the lame, either - unless the law could be engaged in a certain way - then, I could cure the lame because once the law was engaged, then I could engage the process. So, this is the only way in which anything can be done, in fact; the law must be engaged in order for anything to be done. You cannot break God's Laws in order to perform miracles. All of the so-called miracles are just new laws that mankind has not discovered, and I wouldn't call them even new, really, because from God's perspective, they've existed forever, right from the inception of our universe, right until now, they've existed. So these are laws that exist that we have to learn how to engage and really it's like a scientific process of discovering what those laws are as to how to engage them.

In the first century, I discovered a lot of laws, and therefore I knew how to engage them and, in this life, once I go through the process, or back to the condition that I want to get through, by engaging the laws that are involved in getting into that condition, I will be able to perform many different things, even better things than I performed in the first century. That is my belief at this point in time, because I know more of the laws than I did then; however, it's not going to be miracles, they're not going to be miracles from my perspective, they're just going to be engaging the laws.

**Mary:** But perhaps they'll look like miracles to other people. They would be the kind of thing that some people wish for you to perform at the moment.

Yes, and it's illogical for them, as we'll discuss in this FAQ session, it's illogical for people to assume that just because I can do one thing it's proof of my identity, because it isn't, all it's proof of is that I can do that thing. So it's a bit like saying, "if you can fly, then it proves that you're Jesus." No it doesn't, it just proves that you can fly, it doesn't prove anything else and that's the thing we need to bear in mind.

**Mary:** All right, so you've just let us know that, basically, you could do certain things that people would perceive to be miracles in the first century. People would even perceive them, perhaps, to be miracles now, if you could do them, but at this point, you're not yet at the state of at-onement with God again.

Correct, the main reasons why I can't perform things now is because love has not been perfected inside of myself and for that to occur, all fear that exists inside of me has to leave: and that's the process I'm going through and God's been taking me through for the past 15 or 17 years now, of releasing fears, releasing fears, until I can get to the point where the love that exists within is in harmony with God's Love; God's Love has no fear involved in it and so, for me, to be in harmony with God, and therefore be able to do those things, I have to obtain that condition through my own choice, through my choice to release fear, basically and that will take time.

In the first century that took me around 13 years of time, from the time when I actively engaged God's Laws, and I realised that there was this law involving love, and that was that fear and love could not co-exist at the same time and so I realised that I had to go through a process, which took 13 years to engage in my first century life. Now, at the moment, I started engaging this process when I was 40 years of age, or 41 years of age; I've been doing it for 9 years now in terms of this process; God had been leading me through this process for much longer than that, of course but it was only when I became fully conscious or aware myself, of what the process involved, which was 9 or so years ago, that I realised what I had to do and what I had to do was release all of my fears, which I'm still doing and, that might take another - well in the first century that took 13 years, and I've been doing it 9 years so far - so it's probably at least going to take another four, as a minimum, it's going to take another 4 years, so, it will be at least another 4 years, probably, until I can engage some of these laws. Now, it's true that some of those laws might be able to be engaged before then, depending on my memory of them and how much in harmony with love I am at the time of engaging the laws.

So, at the moment I have a memory of all the different laws I can engage but I'm not harmonious with love with regard to engaging those particular laws so that's going to take some time to develop.

**Mary:** Yes, so you're saying that basically you're in this process of bringing yourself back into alignment with a set of laws.

Yes.

**Mary:** And once you are, then you'll be able to do certain things that currently ...

I can't do.

**Mary:** ... you can't do because we're all bound by God's Laws.

And because, the primary reason why I can't do them is because fear exists within me, and fear is not harmonious with love, so, therefore, fear is not harmonious with law - with God's Laws I'm talking about, not human laws of course, in human laws, there are millions of laws that are created out of fear but not God's Laws, none of God's Laws are created out of fear - so, I must engage God's Laws in the same manner that anyone else would engage God's Laws, if I am ever going to do things that are new, that have not been done on this earth. Now, other people may see them as miracles, but I don't see them as miracles; they're just me knowing another law, like, mankind knowing the Law of Aerodynamics, now, not just the Law of Gravity or the laws of engaging 'lighter than air' flight, now he engages the laws that can engage 'heavier than air' flight and that's only because we know more laws, that's the only reason why and this is the same principle that we'll be engaging.

**Mary:** Okay, so, you've spoken about this journey back towards alignment with the laws; once you're there, does that mean that you'll be doing miracles willy-nilly everywhere? Or you mentioned ...

No, no, as usual, all of the so-called miracles are just engagements of law, so where the law permits me to engage a process that other people believe are miracles, but which I see as just engaging the law, I will engage the law when I'm driven by love to do so. I won't engage, I won't be able to engage it if I wasn't driven by love to do so because in that place, you have to be harmonious with love before the law can be engaged.

**Mary:** So what would be an unloving use of performing a miracle? What would motivate you?

Well, we see a lot of these happening on earth today where a spirit over-cloaks a person on earth, who doesn't understand the law: the spirit understands the law, the person on earth doesn't understand the law, but the spirit over-clocks the person on earth, and does so-called miracles through the person. Now, while it's great that the spirit did it - it's not very good because it's deceitful, it's not true. The person on earth isn't in the condition where they understand the law, they're only being assisted and if they told the truth, and said, "Look, I'm being assisted by a spirit." Now we'd be in harmony with more truth, that would be fantastic. That's not the kind of thing I want to do; what I want to do is show the potential of the human species without having somebody assisting you all the time, only through this connection with God, that's what I want to demonstrate to people.

I don't want to demonstrate what anybody can do, which is allow yourself to be over-clocked by the will of another person, pushed around by a person, whether they're seen or unseen matters not to me, they're still pushing you around and manipulating you into doing something that you believe is right perhaps, but it's deceitful and it's out of harmony with love. You're not going to be able to fully engage miraculous things in that place, so I don't want to do that; I just want to engage the law in that pure space.

**Mary:** It'd get a lot of people off your back, though wouldn't it, if you just suddenly did some miracles? Why wouldn't you do that?

Well, I am not going to engage these processes just for some egotistical reason and in fact, if I attempted to, I would be automatically out of harmony with the law of love: so you can't engage these things for some egotistical reason. I am not like people claim me to be, I am not narcissistic or egotistical, I have no desire to do something which helps another person just because it helps me and so I don't have any desire just to turn the water there into wine just so that you will believe that I am Jesus. That doesn't make any sense to me, whatsoever - I don't have any desire to turn water into wine, anyway, which we can discuss in another question, and you'll see why - but all of these so-called things that people want me to do are often just to prove to them something. There's no loving reason for doing it at all and in fact for many of them, no matter how much proof I furnish about my own identity, they would still not believe me anyway and many of them say that to me, in fact, I had one man said to me, "No matter what you did, I still wouldn't believe you're Jesus." Okay, well what can I say to that? Fair enough.

**Mary:** Does that bother you?

No, not at all, it doesn't worry me that people don't believe that I'm Jesus. I know who I am. It's like me saying to you, "No matter what you do I will never believe you're Mary Magdalene." Or, saying to Igor, "No matter what you do, Igor, I'm never going to believe that you're Igor." Fair enough, what can you say to that? Not much at all, really. Like, it's a very illogical thing to say and it's a very illogical thing to do and also, I believe in the future, many of them will turn around from that very illogical statement and go, "Yes, I was a bit of an idiot". Even saying that is a bit idiotic, actually.

**Mary:** Why is it idiotic?

Well, it's idiotic; firstly, because it's illogical, you're basically saying that you're not going to believe anybody is anybody, no matter what they do. What sense does that make, from a philosophical perspective? None whatsoever. This is the thing, because they have all these beliefs about Jesus, of course, they have all these ideas that make no logical sense when applied to another person and I put to these kind of people, that basically it's their belief systems that prevent them from analysing anything I say with any logical thought, with any clear thinking because their belief systems preclude it and while your belief systems preclude any logical thought, it's impossible to help you, both here on earth and in the spirit world. Now, sooner or later, events of life will confront these illogical thoughts, and help you see that they are pretty illogical, and at some point in the future you may change.

For example, once the atheist arrives in the spirit world, he will realise there's a spirit world: a lot of people laugh at me when I talk about a spirit world, well, when you arrive there, you won't laugh at me anymore you will realise there was one all that time. You still might not believe I was Jesus, of course, but you'll at least know that I spoke the truth on that issue and this is what I find for the majority of people, it's not until they actually speak to the people I know in the spirit world that they'll actually accept that I'm Jesus - but we can talk about that later, too.

**Mary:** Yes, sure.

As to what is the only way that anybody's going to be able to prove that they are Jesus.

**Mary:** All right, so if we address that in another question, how you could possibly prove it. The original question I asked was, that you're constantly asked to prove that you're Jesus, why haven't you? And you've basically spoken about how other people desire you to prove it, haven't you?

Yes.

**Mary:** So, you've mentioned that you're not God, and so you can't prove that you're God. That you didn't do everything that's stated in the Bible, and so you're not going to end up doing those things again.

Exactly.

**Mary:** That when you did do certain things that are recorded in the Bible, you were at-one with God.

Of course, and I'm not at-one with God at this point yet, because of the fear that exists within me on different subjects.

**Mary:** Yes, and also that you're not going to do things in an unloving way to make life easier for yourself, perhaps.

No, in fact, it would be impossible to do so: I can't engage laws of love while at the same time being selfish and narcissistic and self-involved; that's the reality. So, if I'm selfish, narcissistic, and self-involved, I'm not going to be able to do anything, in fact, that anybody else hasn't done on the planet.

**Mary:** Which is quite ironic isn't it, because if you suddenly just did perform a miracle, it might make a lot of people suddenly believe that you're Jesus, but in that same act, you'd be doing something that's narcissistic and self-involved, so everyone would be happy with that, and yet it would prove your lack of love.

Exactly, it would actually prove the lack of love and it will actually prove that I am narcissistic and self-involved, that's the sad thing about it. I find that quite amusing because I'm often accused by the media or others that I am narcissistic and self-involved, and so forth and yet, if I do what they want me to do, that would make me such, so again, illogical, their claims are illogical. So, I don't know if I've covered all of those points.

**Mary:** Yes, so, just the final point was that you're not yet at-one with God again, and I think you covered that.

Yes, so for all of these reasons, it's impossible for me to engage proof that the people, generally, who ask me these questions want. Now, there's plenty of proof of who I am, actually, already presented. There's over a thousand hours of video presentations where I talk about things not heard of on this planet ever before. So, you could choose to watch all that but the majority of people don't do that, because they hear the claim that he's saying he's Jesus, and then they go, "That's impossible." They say that's impossible without hearing a single word that I've ever spoken generally. Or, they're critically analysing, trying to critically analyse every single thing I say, trying to prove that I'm not and it's not a very logical way to proceed if you're trying to find out whether Alan John Miller, who claims to be Jesus, is actually Jesus or not.

Also, it doesn't matter, that's the irony: it doesn't matter to anyone other than me, who I am; and if it matters to you, it's only because of your belief systems that would be confronted if you accepted that I was Jesus. So, if it matters to you, who I am, that's like it mattering to me who you are. Why would it matter? Why wouldn't I just let you be you? It doesn't matter in any way unless I have a personal investment.

And I suggest to the majority of people who've asked these questions, is they have deep personal investments in what they believe Jesus to be and, as a result of that, project at me all sorts of things because of their deep personal investments. All of their projections are unloving; they're never going to be at-one with God while they have them towards me because remember I did say, and it is recorded in the Bible, that he who judges another is going to be in deep trouble. ; he who is angry with another is going to be in deep trouble, according to Matthew, chapter 5, that says, "... if you're angry with me, you're going to be cast into Gehenna ..." is what it says in Matthew, chapter 5, if you believe your Bible - of course, I never said that, but that's what the Christians believe - if you're angry with anybody, according to Matthew, chapter 5, you'll be cast into the everlasting hell-fire according to what the Bible says - now, I don't agree with that - but if you believe your own Bible, then you need to stop being angry with me for claiming that I'm Jesus.

According to the same passage and verse as in Matthew, chapter 5, it says that you must love you enemy. Now, I suggest to you, I've had a lot of, as you know, emails from Christians, saying they want to shoot me. In fact, I had a radio talk-back show where a Catholic-Christian rang up and said I need a bullet in the head. That was her statement. And I go, Yes, that's very interesting. That's very out of harmony with Matthew, chapter 5, where you would love your enemies. Now, if you love your enemies as your friends, are you saying you'd put a bullet in the head of your friend, would you? No, I don't think so.

So, if you're saying you'd do that to me, you're way out of harmony with your own belief system, let alone with what the truth is. So, I would suggest to such people that they look at their personal investments in why they want me to prove that I'm Jesus, and instead listen to what I'm saying with an open mind for a change, that's what I suggest. That's what people in the first century had to do, too, by the way, ironically, they had to do exactly the same thing.

2. Why don't you speak Aramaic to prove that you're Jesus?

This has to be one of the most ridiculous and illogical, stupid questions that I have ever heard to be frank; it goes along with many other stupid questions that I'm often asked, I feel. Now, I say it's stupid and illogical because it is totally crazy to believe just because I spoke Aramaic that somebody would believe that I'm Jesus. Like, the reality is that Jim Caviezel, I think is the way you pronounce his last name, who played me in The Passion of the Christ spoke Aramaic for nearly two hours.

**Mary:** A lot longer than that I'm assuming, if he had rehearsals and ...

Exactly and if that's the case then that proves that he's Jesus, doesn't it? No, it only proves that he can speak Aramaic; that's all it proves, it proves nothing else; and this is a measure of people's illogical reasoning. If I spoke Aramaic, the only thing it would prove is that I can speak Aramaic; it doesn't prove that I'm Jesus. If it did, then there'd be literally thousands of people who could prove that they're Jesus and that obviously can't be true because there's only one of us. So, I find a lot of these questions quite laughable actually, in terms of the lack of logic that's present, and, in fact, I would suggest to people who ask these kinds of questions that you need to go and do a course in logic because without a course in logic, you obviously don't understand much at all. And a course in logic is if I can speak Aramaic, then all it proves is that I can speak Aramaic, that's all it proves, it doesn't prove anything else it doesn't prove my identity as Jesus.

It never can, in fact, prove my identity as Jesus and if you believed that I was Jesus just because I could speak Aramaic, then in my opinion you're crazier than I am. Like, honestly, if you believe that that's true, then you're crazy of course it's not true.

**Mary:** Also, not many people actually speak Aramaic, do they?

Of course, so like I find that humorous as well: the dialect of Aramaic that we spoke in the first century has not been spoken for nearly two thousand years so, how would anyone ever know that I'm actually speaking the Aramaic that I spoke in the first century, even if I could speak it. No one ... who's going to be around to validate the test? Certainly not the person who can't speak Aramaic at all. I could be speaking gibberish for all they know and just because I go, "blah, blah, blah," and speak some Aramaic to them, what, they're going to believe that now I'm Jesus, because I'm speaking it. And by the way, a spirit could over cloak me and speak the dialect of Aramaic that I spoke two thousand years ago, but what does that prove? Nothing at all, except that I'm able to be over cloaked by a spirit who speaks Aramaic, nothing else.

**Mary:** Okay, so let's talk about this in terms of ... we've established that it's not logical that just because a person speaks Aramaic, that's proof that they're Jesus.

Not at all.

**Mary:** What about the fact that you are saying that you have memories of the last two thousand years, and someone might assume that part of those memories would be language. So, can you explain what's going on there?

Sure, for the last two thousand years, after I left the earth, I never spoke a language: we spoke in thought packages that can be transmitted into any language from one person to another, and through feelings; so, for two thousand years I haven't spoken a language, as people on earth interpret a language to be. A language is a very impure and inaccurate way of transferring information, mostly because I have to have a feeling, then I turn it into a thought, that I have to accurately describe then these thoughts need to be turned into a language, and the language has to be able to accurately describe the thought, as well as the feeling, I transmit that to you through my voice, you then hear it as a language, you've then got to transmit it back to a thought, and then down into a feeling, for you to understand how I feel about a certain subject.

Now, there is a whole heap of levels of distance from my original emotion in that process: we've got the transmission of the thought, transmission of a language, the re-transmission of the language into thought, and the thought into an emotion; and so there is a whole heap of errors that arise, and do always arise, in fact, you see it constantly in day-to-day life on earth - all these errors that arise due to this inaccurate way of transmitting feelings from one person to another. Now, in the spirit world, we transmitted feelings as they were and, if a person could feel them, if they were open to those feelings, then they'd understand completely accurately what was being felt, and therefore what was being thought. On earth that rarely occurs; it's very rare for another person on earth to actually accurately understand what you feel, no matter what language you use, and no matter how much you tell them something and so, I feel the process of language on earth is very limited.

Now, if you examine that, and understand that I haven't used language for that period of time, and in fact I don't actually enjoy the use of language for these reasons, because I find it's often misinterpreted. Then you can see that I probably haven't had much interest in language for nearly two thousand years actually. Now, while I could speak some languages in the first century, they were languages that I learned as a child. I spoke three languages in the first century, not Aramaic only, but also Hebrew and Greek and these are languages that I learned through my study, both, usually of the Bible, or what was known to be the Bible at that time.

**Mary:** So the Jewish books of the Bible.

The Jewish books of the Bible, and also because I lived - up until the age of 12 - near Alexandria, in Egypt. I spent a lot of time in the synagogue, and conversing with people who spoke Greek, as well as Hebrew and Aramaic so, I learned all three languages as I was growing up, just like the average person on earth would do if they lived in a household with three languages. Now, those languages are not important to me, they're never going to be important to me and, in the end, while I might be able to speak them once I remember everything from my soul, which remember I said is a process of releasing fear - so, as I release fears, I will get closer and closer and closer to everything that I remember, everything that I remember will have clarity, including language - but I suggest to people that I won't be able to just speak Aramaic, I should be able to speak almost every language of the earth, given the fact that I've interacted with almost every language of the earth over two thousand years through the transmission of thought.

So, I feel that the whole concept of me speaking Aramaic, when the whole concept should be, you should be able to speak any language on earth, is interesting in itself. Secondly, the only reason why I can't speak any language on earth is because of fear; it's because of fears that I have within myself that prevent me from this assimilation of the knowledge that comes from my soul that doesn't prevent it in other areas, because I have no fear in those particular areas. All I need to do is work through those particular emotions, and as I do, things will have a lot more clarity and therefore, I might be able to speak these languages; but even if I can speak every language on earth, it's still not proof that I'm Jesus, all it's proof of is that I can speak every language on earth, that's the only thing it proves.

**Mary:** So could I ask a little bit of clarity there?

Sure.

**Mary:** You spoke about how it might be possible in the future, as you remove more fear, for you to remember not just Aramaic, but many other languages.

Hebrew, Greek, initially, and then the other languages.

**Mary:** So, just for people who've never met you before, this certainty that you're Jesus, did that and all of these memories of two thousand years of life, did that happen very suddenly?

No, no, it's happened over a period of time. So, as I've released fear, I remembered more things; as I release another fear, I remember more things; as I release another fear, remember more things; and so forth, and so forth, and this has been going on now for 17 years, actually all of my life in this life but for the last 17 years in a more active way, and for the last 9 years, in a more direct way because I then had to come to accept a few things that I wouldn't psychologically accept before that. So, it's going to be a process like that from now on, as well; I'm going to continue going through this process as long as I allow the release of fear, I will also allow the return of the memories - when I say the return, they're still there, all the memories are there - it's just my ability to psychologically accept them, will be determined by the fear that I'm in.

**Mary:** So, would you say it's similar to someone who has, similar but not the same, perhaps, as someone who has some fear about an accident that happened when they were a child, and because of that, they block the memory.

Certainly, it's exactly the same as that or you could say it's almost the same as Alzheimer's, in some ways and Alzheimer's occurs because people do not want to remember certain things and as a result, they start closing down their ability to remember. The memories are still stored within their soul, and in their case, in their spirit body's mind but they're not accessible because of this desire to close them down because of the emotional impact that these memories may have in terms of their life and for this reason, a lot of people close down their memories from childhood, in particular but also, as people get older, oftentimes, all of their life they close down their memories, they can't remember things.

I was speaking to my mother the other day and she can't remember smacking me across the face when I was 15. Why is that? Because she doesn't want to remember it she doesn't want to remember because it has some emotional hurt for her, some emotional pain; like, I remember it, my sister remembers it, my brother remembers it but she doesn't remember it. And so, this is an indication of what happens to memory when we have fear associated with memory, we do not remember things and it's a fact of life.

**Mary:** Okay, so what has been the content of your memory so far? I mean are they events? We're talking about language here. Why have you remembered some things, and not language, I suppose I'm asking?

Well, firstly I've never viewed language as very important: so, I've never had much of a focus on remembering language, in fact, I feel language has many flaws, as I've explained; so, I prefer to be able to transmit emotions, than transmit language.

There are many other things that I remember because I have a deep desire to remember them so, things about God, for example, God's Laws, I've always had a fascination and deep desire, no fear about those kinds of things. So these are the things I remembered first. I remembered the process of coming back to earth, and the process of how we came back to earth, but only after I dealt with a lot of fear and I was in fear for months on end before I allowed any of these kinds of emotions. So, there are some times when I dealt with lots of fear, and I remember something and then, there are other times when I have no fear, and so I remember those things very easily.

Now, the majority of things that I'm teaching people at the moment are things that I have no fear about and so therefore, I can easily remember them, and easily transmit them to others, using the best possible language I can, given the fact that I'm very limited with English, as well as any other language; and all I can do is explain myself in different ways until people understand and because I have no fear on these particular subjects, it is very, very easy for me to explain these particular things and remember them.

Of course, the things that are more personal in my life, so the things that have happened to me personally in the first century or through the spirit world and on earth, are much more personal in terms of my fears and so, therefore, they are harder to remember: many of the personal things are much harder to remember, as a result of the fears that I have so as I've released fears, then I remember more things; so, for example, there was a time when I didn't remember much of my life in the first century, and now I remember a lot of it because I have released fears about different things that allowed me to remember specific events.

**Mary:** Okay, there's just a point about your physical body and your spirit body being different.

Yes, that's true too, the spirit body and the physical body are different to my soul: so, for the average person on earth in their first incarnation, they have a soul, or half of a soul, connected to their physical body and spirit body; so everything, every experience that their physical body has had, their soul has had; every experience that their spiritual body has had, their soul has had. In my case, because we're connecting - and in every one of the case of any one of the fourteen who've returned - in our case, the soul has been around for two thousand years, but the bodies we're connecting to have only been around, in my case, for 51 years, since the time of conception. Now, since I've only been around since the time of conception, my physical body and my spirit body only remember events in this life and it's only my soul that remembers all the events of all of my life. So, it depends upon how much I allow this connection with my soul as to how much I will remember; and how much I allow the connection is determined by fear, as I said.

So, while I'm afraid about certain things, so for example, if I'm afraid of what will happen to my physical body, then I'll only remember certain things; if I release that fear, then I'll remember a lot more things, and so forth; so what I remember depends totally on the level of fear that I allow myself to work through at any given time and the level of fear that I allow myself to experience at any given time. Once I allow myself to work through those particular fears, then I have a very complete memory of everything that has occurred. So there are some events that I've done a lot of work processing through my fears, and so I remember them vividly, as a result, and they have no emotional signature, anymore, I don't feel pained by them, and I don't feel afraid of them anymore, and so I can remember them very, very well; there are other events that that doesn't apply to.

**Mary:** And is there a reason why you've chosen English for this incarnation?

Well, I suppose there are a lot of reasons for choosing it, it is the most widely spoken language on the planet to a degree, in terms of the amount of countries that speak it.

**Mary:** And the media, would you say?

And, I suppose, yes, there's the media issue, most of it is very much based on English. And because it is widely spoken in the western world, there is a lot of effort and time put into translation into English from other languages so it would make sense for anybody who returns to earth to probably speak English as their first language, or their second language, at least, which of course, all of the fourteen can do. So, while others of the fourteen know Spanish and French, Vietnamese and Afrikaans, and other languages, the reality is that all of us also know English. As I've said before, it's completely unimportant what language I speak on earth. What's more important is whether I'm logical, whether I make any sense or not, whether, when people listen to me, they realise that there are things that are said that are truth or not - that's the most important thing I would have thought.

If I was listening to another person, I wouldn't be concerned about what language they're speaking, I'd be concerned about whether what they're saying makes any sense and whether what they're saying I can put into practice and actually prove whether it's true or not - that's what I'd be concerned about, if it was me looking at this question as to whether I can speak Aramaic or not. Well, to me, it makes no difference; what matters is can I speak logic or not and I feel for the majority of people they have a lot of difficulty with logic because of their emotional belief systems and I feel that's one of the reasons why logic is often thrown out of the window, and people then accept belief systems which are illogical.

**Mary:** Certainly from my perspective, I find it crazy that when people are sitting in front of you, interviewing you, they want you to speak Aramaic or turn water into wine, when I would think, wouldn't world peace or a connection with God be far more relevant to a discussion with Jesus?

Yes, to me, like, there are almost a billion more questions that could be asked that are a higher priority than those.

3. Why don't you turn water into wine to prove that you're Jesus?

Well, I feel this is just as illogical and unreasonable as the previous question actually, in terms of why I didn't speak Aramaic: firstly, it presumes that in the first century I did turn water into wine, which I did not; so, it also presumes that turning water into wine would be a loving thing to do, which it is not; in fact, it would be far better to turn wine into water, from a health perspective, than it would be to turn water into wine. And, in fact, I have no aversion to turning wine into water, but I would have a lot of aversion to turning water into wine. Again, it's one of these things that never happened in the first century that I'm often asked to perform in order to prove something. If I could do it, the only thing it logically proves is that I can turn water into wine, that's all it proves, it doesn't prove anything else, it doesn't prove that my identity is Jesus, it only proves that I can turn water into wine, so to me, it's pointless to even attempt such a thing.

Why would I want to attempt turning water into wine, when I know that wine contains alcohol, alcohol destroys brain cells, so therefore is unloving for me to imbibe or encourage anybody else to imbibe. Unfortunately, also, alcohol encourages over-cloaking by spirits, because there are dark spirits in the spirit world who don't get to drink alcohol in the spirit world and all they want to do is over-cloak somebody on earth so that they can drink alcohol through them, and this is why we have so many people who are drunk on earth, who are standing up and can't even remember who they are anymore because they're completely over-cloaked by another person. Now, do I want to encourage all of that behaviour? No, I don't. I would never want to, actually. So, I will never turn water into wine ever, that's the reality. I might turn wine into water, I don't know about that; but, to be honest with you, I can turn wine into water with a Bunsen burner and a few pieces of stainless steel. So, that can all be done quite easily as well, doing it the other way.

So, I feel, again, this question is really based around the Bible - the presumption that the Bible is speaking the truth about my life in the first century, which it is not. It's also this presumption that I should do things in order to prove myself, which if I was loving, I would not do. I would only do it if I was narcissistic and self-involved, and egotistical and I'm not going to do those things, because I'm not any of those things. So, I feel again that this question of proving myself because of a miracle - in this case turning water into wine - is really a very, very flawed logical proposition and it contains nothing real about it in terms of what is the reality of what I'm teaching or any of those kinds of things? What is the truth of God? What is the truth of the universe?

These are all just questions that people ask, thinking that they're stumping me in some way, and thinking that somehow they're going to convince me that I'm not the person that I know I am, which is never going to happen actually because I know who I am.

**Mary:** So when you said it's illogical, do you mean by that, that if you could turn water into wine, it wouldn't necessarily prove anything or ...?

It doesn't prove anything other than that I can turn water into wine; it doesn't prove that I'm Jesus, and it also contains the presumption that I turned water into wine in the first century which I didn't do. It also contains the presumption that turning water into wine would be a loving act, which it is not. So, it presumes a lot of things - all of which are incorrect. And, obviously, if I'm going to do something unloving, I can't engage God's Laws as I've mentioned before in another question; the reality is God's Laws can only be engaged under certain conditions and if I am choosing to engage God's Laws for self-aggrandisement in some way, to make myself appear better than others in some way, or in order to damage another person, of which this particular thing would do both, then I would be completely out of harmony with love, and therefore unable to complete the task anyway. So, I feel a lot of it comes from this deep misunderstanding people have about God's Laws.

They don't understand all of God's Laws are loving, and all of God's Laws involve love; in order to engage them, they must involve love. No so-called miracle - and remember I said in a previous question that I don't believe there's any such thing as a miracle - no so-called miracle or what I would call no engaging of a higher Law of God that people on earth don't know about, can be done without love being involved. So, love is an essential part of any one of these Laws being engaged; and, bearing in mind that turning water into wine would not be a loving act on a number of levels, it would be impossible to achieve, in my opinion, without there being some kind of dark influence being involved; and even then I doubt whether it's possible to achieve from a purely scientific perspective, water does not contain the same ingredients that wine contains.

Water is water, H20, it contains a simple amount of elements, two elements; wine contains many, sometimes hundreds, of elements in it that would have to be gathered from somewhere in order to convert water into wine. So, from a scientific point of view, converting water into wine would have to go through a process in order for it to occur.

**Mary:** So you're saying there are no magic tricks. There's always got to be science that underlies the miracle, the so-called miracle.

Some science underlies everything, very miracle that - so-called miracle that's ever been performed - there is a scientific explanation for, that's reality. And, I find it quite funny, in some ways, that I'm asked by atheists to turn water into wine, and my not doing so, proves to them that I am not Jesus; they don't even believe in Jesus, they don't even believe Jesus existed; they don't believe in the Bible, so therefore they don't believe that Jesus ever turned water into wine because they don't believe in the Bible. And yet I'm being asked to perform some fictitious thing that they know is not possible scientifically; I know it's not possible scientifically too, like, I'm not stupid. So, I am constantly amazed at the lack of logic, even in these so-called atheists, asking me to perform a miracle that is scientifically not possible to achieve without gathering other elements other than water, together in some manner and it proves nothing aside from that I could do it, even if I could do it. It doesn't prove that I'm Jesus; it doesn't prove my identity.

So, again, I feel it's a very flawed argument, very flawed questions that I'm frequently asked by people in the media and other people who believe themselves to be clear thinkers; and they call themselves sceptics, but I can't, I don't even think they're sceptics, because a sceptic is a logical person - a person who actually looks at something from a logical perspective and then is sceptical only because of logic, not because of their emotions. These kinds of people obviously are not clearly thinking logically, so therefore they're being driven by their emotions, they're being driven by their emotion to prove that there is no such thing as God's Truth. They want to prove that there's no spirit world, and as I've said, in the future they'll find out that they're wrong; and, in fact, they'll realise that they were quite silly making these presumptions that they have no evidence to support.

So, I have no evidence, myself, to support the fact that water can be turned into wine. I don't know if it can be done at this point in time. I believe that for it to be done, the elements which involve grapes and other things, other than just water, the elements would have to be present. Now, there may be a way that I can do that, in a very rapid way in the future, engaging some laws, I don't know. There might be a way that humankind can do it in some way after they engage God's Laws, I don't know those Laws that are involved in that particular process, at this point in time. However, I'm pretty sure, and I know for certain, that I did not know them in the first century, and so therefore never turned water into wine in the first century. And I don't believe that anybody who thinks I did is actually thinking very logically either, because I would not do something that's unloving.

Now if you talking about de-alcoholised wine, now that's a different matter altogether, I might consider that, because obviously alcohol destroys the brain cells, in particular; it has a detrimental effect generally on our body, and my belief is that the only reason why it seems to have a good effect on people's bodies is because they're full of stress and they need to release some stress. So, I feel that I would never engage that particular process of turning water into wine that's alcohol.

4. Why don't you "insert miracle" to prove that you are Jesus?

**Mary:** Why don't you - insert any miracle or sign or wonder here in this sentence - to prove that you are Jesus? So why don't you do a thing to prove that you're Jesus?

Well, I already know who I am - so, there's no point in me performing any miracle in order to prove that I'm Jesus, because I already know who I am - I don't need to prove to myself who I am, because I know who I am; and I don't need to prove to anybody else who I am because I'm not egotistical, I don't need them to believe me; I don't need them to honour me, or respect me or treat me in any possible way that people think that I expect; and for that reason I don't see any purpose to proving that I'm Jesus.

By the way, proving that I'm Jesus is quite difficult, and I'll talk maybe in another question about how difficult it is going to be to prove that I'm Jesus from a logical perspective, not from an illogical one; but, I have no desire to prove that I'm Jesus because I don't believe that's the point anyway. I know who I am; the people who have come with me know who I am. Other people will know who I am sooner or later, it doesn't matter to me when they know; for the majority of them it might be a lot later than sooner, that doesn't concern me very much; all that concerns me is that I can just live here on earth, teaching the things that I wish to teach that I know are true and that I can enjoy that process.

It doesn't even matter if nobody listens to it in the end, to me. It matters to them, because if they don't listen to it they're going to find their life a lot harder than it needs to be, that's the reality, but it doesn't matter to me. I don't need people to believe who I am in order to have some kind of narcissistic, egotistical, feeling within myself satisfied; I don't feel any need for people to believe who I am in order for them to come to terms with something about me.

I feel the more important thing is that they come to terms with things about themselves and they look at themselves and they examine themselves from a perspective of love; and they attempt to connect to God; and if they really want to connect to God, they'd do well to listen to what I'm saying to them because I know how to connect to God, that's the reality because I have connected to God and done so for two thousand years. So, if they listen to me about all of that, they'll have a lot better ways of doing that, if they listen; but I don't feel they have to listen; it's just a choice - just like it's a choice whether they believe me or not, or accept me or not, or even listen to me while I'm saying that I'm Jesus.

The majority of people don't listen to me when I say that I'm Jesus about any subject, even a subject that's not related to whether I'm Jesus or not and I find that quite amusing too, but there's not much I can do about that, and also there's not much I want to do about that. I don't believe I need to prove to people anything about my own identity.

There are a lot of things that I want to prove about God and that I want to prove about God's Laws and I'm already engaged in the process of attempting to prove those things, but there's not much I want to prove about myself.

**Mary:** So what about the idea that if you did do X miracle, or whatever it is, a lot more people might take you seriously, or take your claim that you're Jesus seriously?

Well, that might be true, but unfortunately they still wouldn't understand very much, because if the only reason why you listen to somebody is that they perform a miracle, then it's not a very good reason to listen to somebody. Like, there are many miracles - or what people call miracles on this earth - that are very, very dark and evil, actually; where dark spirits over-cloak a person and they do something that is actually very, very damaging to others. Now, if you then listen to that person for the rest of your life, you're going to be in a lot of serious trouble in your future, particularly after you've passed into the spirit world and you start recognising all of the laws that you break in that place so I wouldn't recommend that to anyone at all. Just because somebody performs a miracle, or what seems to be a miracle on this planet, it doesn't mean you should listen to them.

When I think you should listen to somebody is when they show you what love is, and when they explain the truth to you, and when they are willing to give you information, and when they're willing to be open about what is truth, rather than closed down and deceitful about it: they're the kind of people I feel you should listen to.

And there are many people who do perform so-called miracles on earth, through the help of spirits of course, who are in the spirit world performing these miracles through them - that people on earth believe are miracles - that have very, very dark intentions, and are very unloving as individuals and I suggest to the people on earth that you don't need to listen to those kinds of people either.

You need to examine things from the perspective of love: now, if we're examining things from the perspective of love, then you can see you could dismiss a lot of information that comes to you, because a lot of stuff that comes to us is not very loving; a lot of stuff presented by the media is not very loving; and a lot of stuff presented by people, generally, to us is not very loving; and we can dismiss a lot of information that way if we use love as our filter, rather than whether a person performs a miracle, as our filter.

**Mary:** So you're really saying that signs and miracles and wonders on this planet are not necessarily a good measure of love, because there are a lot of other processes that could come into play.

Exactly, there are a lot of laws that can be engaged by people who are evil in their intentions and I choose not to engage them, but if a person was evil in their intentions, they do choose to engage them - which would be seemingly miraculous at the time to other people - but which are not very helpful to their future progression in love and certainly not helpful for their relationship with God.

**Mary:** But those people are engaging some of God's Laws, but in a dark way.

It's like a lot of God's Laws: so for example, if we examine a lot of God's Laws - and now we're entering a philosophical discussion, and that's fine \- but if you examine a lot of God's Laws, you'll see that God has given us this beautiful gift, and then if we use it badly, it becomes like a weapon. So, for example, sex is a beautiful gift and if we engage it in harmony with the Laws of God, it will remain such for the rest of our existence but, if we engage it out of harmony with the Laws of God, it can become a weapon so much that diseases and viruses and even death can result from the use of sex. So, this is an example of how laws can be engaged in a positive or negative direction using our will; so once we come to understand the law, we can use it positively or negatively.

Now, mankind came to understand the law of how to split the atom - as the saying goes - and the very first use of it was to destroy hundreds of thousands of people; that's man's darkness that causes that; so God allowed the possibility of the discovery of these laws, once man discovers them, many times mankind uses them negatively. The whole flight, controlled flight was developed in the early 1900's; by 1914 it was being used to drop bombs on people; that's man, and the way man uses God's Laws.

Now, I choose to not use God's Laws in those ways: for that reason I'm not going to perform any miraculous thing until all of the things that I do are in harmony with all of God's Laws; I'm not going to allow myself to be over-cloaked by a spirit, and perform things like other people on earth are currently doing; I'm not going to allow that to occur, because I don't believe it's in harmony with God's Laws of love - it's a way of using the law as a weapon, and I don't agree with that and this comes down to man's will, and how man chooses to use his will.

I choose to use my will in harmony with God's Laws of Love: the average person on our planet chooses to use their will out of harmony with God's Laws of Love and the average so-called leader on the planet, whether that's political, religious or otherwise, chooses to use many of God's Laws out of harmony with love. That's the average thing that we see happening on the planet; my suggestion is that we need to stop honouring these people who use God's Laws out of harmony with love, and see it for what it really is - just a wicked way of using a knife, if you like. See a knife can be a gift if we need it to cut up some food, or we need it to pry open something for some survival purpose, it can be a gift; but if you stab it into the heart of somebody, it's a weapon - see the gift that we had that's now being used for an evil purpose. And there are many things in God's universe that are like that; where God gives us the choice of how we're going to use the gifts we're given.

Now, my suggestion to people is that if they want to engage all of God's Laws, only use the gifts you're given for loving purposes and that's the only reason why I would ever choose to do something that other people would view as miraculous - only to use the gift for a loving purpose.

**Mary:** You've mentioned that you feel it would be unloving to do a miracle in order to prove that you are Jesus, why is that?

Definitely, because it's selfish: the only motivation for doing so would be that people listen to me, or that I prove who I am to people; and I don't see that as a loving motivation.

**Mary:** Wouldn't it be loving if people listen to you more since you have some really good things to help them to improve their life and their relationship with God?

Only if I'm also in the right motivation: so if my motivation is egotism, or selfishness or self-aggrandisement, or glory, then my motivation is impure, and I would suggest to anybody don't listen to me if you feel that that's what I'm like, because it's not a good reason to listen to anybody, I feel; no matter what they've got to say, really.

I feel the time to listen to a person is when what they say makes sense, and the person themselves lives in harmony with what they're teaching, and lives in harmony with love; and it's not loving for a person to put themselves above you, it's not loving for a person to make themselves better than you. So, just because I'm saying I'm Jesus, don't assume that I'm saying that I'm better than you; I'm saying I'm a person, the same as you; I know more than you do, only because of certain things that have happened but I'm not better than you, and from God's perspective I'm your brother, you're my sister. I'm the same as you are in terms of this; I deserve the same amount of love from God that you deserve; I deserve the same amount of respect that you deserve, I don't deserve anything more or less.

**Mary:** And presumably, from that statement, you're not more able or less able to perform miracles than any other person.

Exactly, I am not more able, or less able to perform miracles than any other person - if we think of miracles as being something that people on earth don't understand as a normal thing that would occur - well, I don't see it that way, I see it as just an engagement of law; other people can engage the law just the same as I do; they can perform the same things as I do - ironically, the Bible actually says that \- in fact, the Bible says that they will perform greater works then I perform; that's what the Bible says.

**Mary:** And is that true?

Well, it's possible, yes; it's definitely possible - it's possible for every single person on earth to perform greater works than what I performed; that's possible, but only by engaging the law, only by engaging the law of Love; it's certainly possible because God made it possible. All of us are equal, and as soon as we engage the laws that determine what happens, then anything can be accomplished; that's reality.

**Mary:** And so then presumably when you engage the laws in harmony with love, then there might be a loving purpose to perform a miracle, which may prove your identity to others?

Well, I can't see how it would logically prove my identity to others. It may prove that I have the ability to engage the law; that's all that it proves really. See this is why I think people's logic is flawed: just because I engage a law that other people cannot engage, that then causes me to be able to do something in the future that other people cannot do, it still doesn't prove that I'm Jesus.

**Mary:** Well, and, you were saying that other people cannot engage, surely they can engage ...

Well, they can engage it if they engage the same law.

**Mary:** Yes.

But, if they are not in the same condition, they won't be able to - this is what I'm suggesting.

**Mary:** I see.

So, if they're not in the same condition as I am, they will not be able to perform the same task, if you like, which is engaging the law in a certain direction. Now, when they get into the same condition, they will be able to perform the same law, once they have the same knowledge, and they have the same amount of love, they will be able to perform the same thing - exactly the same thing. It's immaterial to God whether you're Jesus or Joe Blow, the law engaged will result in the result that it always has: all of God's Laws work in this manner - the law engaged always has the result.

**Mary:** So, this is very disappointing for most people because ...

I don't see why it should be disappointing, because basically what I'm saying is every one of them can do what Jesus did. Why would that be disappointing?

**Mary:** Because there's no way of them... suddenly Jesus arriving and them having proof of it, and feeling all relaxed about the fact that you're back and going to fix everything.

Yes, but this is another thing: I cannot fix anything; the reality is if God is not already fixing it, then it can't be fixed, unless something else happens.

**Mary:** Couldn't that be you coming back?

No, not at all because it needs the will of the individual, collectively used, in order to fix things. One person cannot force his will upon another; so even though I would like to fix things, I cannot fix them without other people's will being engaged along the same directions of love that my will is being engaged - that's the only way that things are going to get fixed - it's impossible for me to fix things any other way.

I can't come as some all conquering warrior on a white horse with a sword and slaughter all the people - besides being unloving - slaughter all the people who are wicked - my definition of wicked, of course - and keep all the people who are righteous - my definition of righteous - I can't do that; it's impossible for me to do that and stay in a condition of love; it's impossible. Therefore if I did that I could not engage any law, so I certainly couldn't engage a law where I'm riding a horse in the air.

I couldn't engage that law under those circumstances, because all of God's Laws revolve around love and, since all of God's Laws revolve around love, it's impossible for me to take an action that's unloving and remain in harmony with the law and for that reason I'd have to break the law, with its subsequent penalty.

**Mary:** So, basically you're back here; you're not going to perform any miracles tomorrow, especially not just for the purposes of putting everyone's mind at ease; and you're basically here to teach us how to embrace our own will in harmony with the Laws that God has already defined; and you are, yourself, in the process of engaging your own will in harmony with these laws again - and it's not completely in harmony with them again.

No, not yet because I still have fear: while fear remains in me, it's impossible for me to engage all of God's Laws in harmony with love; fear must be experienced and released in order for it to leave me; once that happens, then I become more in harmony with God's Laws of Love; the more in harmony with God's Laws of Love I become, the more potential there is for me to do things which other people cannot do - which other people may view as miracles, but which I don't see as miracles at all, I see them as just engaging the law. To me it's a scientific process that makes a lot of logical sense, if you think about it and we can see that scientific process in progress through humanity's history through all sorts of developmental areas. It's the same process that I'm engaged in; I'm just engaged in it at the soul level, which the majority of people don't even believe exists. So I'm just engaging it on a different level.

**Mary:** So, your return is not really the return of turning water into wine, or walking on water, or turning loaves into fishes ...

And neither was my first visit the same and most of those things I never did as I pointed out.

**Mary:** It's really about, from what you're saying, creating awareness of an opportunity that exists for individuals ...

... to get into more harmony with God's Laws of Love, and therefore be able to be more powerful in the way in which we express ourselves and create in the universe, yes.

**Mary:** Which sounds exciting, but probably could be a bit of a letdown to people.

Well, I suppose ...

**Mary:** ... who have a different expectation.

Certainly, the person who has an expectation that I come and solve all of their problems for them - that's never going to happen - I can't solve all of their problems for them, because they created most of their own problems and as a result, it's not right for me to solve them; they need to learn how to solve them themselves; or, even better than that, would be to solve them and stop creating new ones; that would be fantastic. They need to learn how to do those particular things and I've had to do those things too.

So I've had to go through the process of learning how to do that and I am continuously in that process and that's the process that everyone else is in, too. So, I feel, on one level, the second coming, if you like, the second coming of Jesus, which is what we're experiencing, could teach us a lot about the engagement of our own desires, our own passions, our own power, all these other things that God wishes us to engage and that God has given us the ability to engage individually in equality, with the same equal stance as Jesus can engage it.

And in fact I fully expect that there will be people in the future that engage some of God's Laws that I've never known before and therefore, they do something that I view as miraculous, until I learn the law - that's what I fully expect - and I feel that if people understood that, we'd have a lot of progression occurring on this planet in lots of different areas. However, the problem of them wanting me to be the solution to all of their issues without them being personally engaged - this is not good - this is actually a flaw in their character and nature; it's a flaw with regard to the issue of humanity's creation: in other words, humanity wants to create badness, and then not deal with the consequence and I can't agree with that; God doesn't agree with that either. God says, "If you're going to create badness, you're going to have to deal with the consequence of badness. If you're going to create goodness, then you'll deal with the consequences of goodness."

This is part of the law, in fact: so I feel that if people understood that about the second coming that it would be - the second coming - would be a very powerful help to each individual on the planet. Unfortunately I don't know how soon that is going to occur because I don't have control of people's will - unlike what the Bible tends to suggest that I do - I don't; I don't have control over people; people will do what they choose to do and if they choose to reject everything I'm saying until such a point in time in the future - and it will be in the future - at some point they'll accept what I'm saying, but it may be well after they've died, and passed into the spirit world, and experienced life and disappointment there, as well, before they realise what's going on. I just know there's nothing I can do about that, except tell the truth. And this is why I said in the first century, the Truth will set you free - the Truth has set me free - the Truth will set you free; it's only the Truth that will set you free.

Nobody performing a miracle for you will set you free: in fact, if anything, somebody performing a miracle for you will enslave you, because you'll believe you're dependent on the individual, on that person, rather than understanding that you, yourself, personally, can perform the same thing.

**Mary:** Thank you.

5. How could you prove that you are Jesus of Nazareth?

Well, from a logical perspective there's only one way that I can prove that I am Jesus, that was born in the first century, from parents Mary and Joseph, and who had a life of two thousand years: and that is to provide proof of all the people who've known me over that period of time, so in other words, what I would have to do is get my mom and dad, Mary and Joseph, to come to earth; I'd have to get everybody who knew me in the first century to come to earth; and I would have to get everybody who has known me in the spirit world to come to earth and say that they have known me and how they know me. Now, the chances of that happening, at this point in time, are fairly low, although not impossible; there is no other way, though, that I can prove that I'm Jesus - just like that there's no other way that you can prove you're Mary Magdalene; there's no other way that Igor can even prove that he's Igor; there's no other way that Lena, behind this camera, can prove she's Lena, without getting other people. A document means nothing; like, a driver's license means nothing, it doesn't prove who you are, it only proves who everybody thinks you are.

**Mary:** I think that would be totally gnarly, though, when people say, like, "How can you prove it?" and you pull out a really old rickety document ...

An old rickety driver's license from two thousand years ago: say, "Here's my driver's license from two thousand years ago." As if, it's never going to happen though, for a lot of reasons. So, the only possible way for me to prove who I am, is to have all the people who have been involved in my life over the last two thousand years corroborate the evidence of my life.

**Mary:** So, I mean, obviously that would be fairly compelling, because there's a lot of people; you've been alive for two thousand years, and there is a lot of people.

Of course.

**Mary:** But, say it was Igor, and he brought in 5 people who knew him when he was a toddler. I could just say, "Well, I don't know these people. I don't ..."

Of course, so can you see that even after all of the evidence is being presented, you could still choose to ignore all of the evidence; that's the reality. So, the sad thing about this particular thing is that it's impossible for me to prove my identity to another person unless I have all the people who have known me for all of my life, come to you at some point, and talk to you about me, and you have to be open to believing them; that's the reality.

Now, on earth at the moment, there are twelve other people who have known me from my first century life and, once they work their way through their own issues and problems, and emotional issues and their own memories, they will be able to corroborate most of what I'm saying about my identity. However, whether a person on earth believes them or not, is completely different. Like, what are they saying about me? That I'm crazy, stupid, delusional, deceitful and so forth: that's what people are saying about me. Why wouldn't they say the same thing about those people? Or even one more thing, and that is, "AJ's just prepped them all, or Jesus' has just prepped them all to say that he's Jesus."

**Mary:** Manipulated.

He's manipulated it all.

**Mary:** And Cornelius and myself are often ... receive that ...

... accused of being manipulated, by myself - which is not true. They don't know - most people have no idea how we live our lives and what kind of character I have - but they assume that it's true because that's their preferred assumption. They'd like to presume that, rather than go, "Okay, there are people from all over the world who actually know that Jesus is Jesus because they've lived with him for two thousand years," they don't want to accept that. So, they'd prefer not to accept that; so they'll come up with any other explanation, and it's like Igor presenting 5 people, or in my case, I'll be presenting 12 people eventually, probably, who have known me in the spirit world who are now on earth, and everyone will say, "That's still not believable." The only other thing is that all the people who are spirits materialise, and come to earth so that you can see them, and then they all talk to you about me and my life, and what happened in my life.

And I suggest to people, if that actually happened, the majority of Christians, for example, would say that they're the devil and the demons: in other words, they would not believe those people; the majority of other people would have all sorts of different belief systems about where these people came from and what they're doing; a lot of them would never accept what they're saying; most atheists would never accept what they're saying, even if it happened. So, the problem with this identity issue, in terms of proof, is this: the only form of proof that I can offer that I'm Jesus is the proof of all of the people that have known me since the time that I arrived on earth the first time and all the people that have known me in the spirit world, and unless you can see them and hear them, and unless you can speak with them, and unless you can accept what they say to you, you're not going to be able to believe; that's reality.

**Mary:** Of course, everyone would ... most people would have their own personal measure, wouldn't they? They would say, "Oh, well, if he did walk on water, then I'd believe it." Or ...

But that's not logical.

**Mary:** ... if he did ...

It only proves that I can walk on water. It doesn't prove who I am.

**Mary:** "If he did speak Aramaic, then I'd believe him."

And that's not logical, because if I could speak Aramaic, the only thing it proves is that I can speak Aramaic.

**Mary:** Or "If he did turn water into wine, walk on water, and ...

... and speak Aramaic ...

**Mary:** ... speak Aramaic ..."

It only proves that I can do three things, now, instead of one: it doesn't prove that I'm Jesus; it doesn't prove my identity - logically it cannot prove my identity - it can only prove that I can do what I did; that's all it proves. As I said, I can never be God, I can never do what God does. So a lot of people come up to me and say, "What am I thinking now?" And I look at them and go, "Why would you think that I'm even interested in what you're thinking now? Let alone want to know what you're thinking now and let alone be interested ... and let alone can think of what you're thinking now? Can you think of what I'm thinking now?" Like, again it's because of their belief that I am God that I should be able to do these things; and I'm not God, I've stated that categorically - but, of course, people don't want to believe that either, that's how unreasonable people have become when it comes to my identity.

**Mary:** I feel for you a lot, because I can see that on the earth there are so many preconceived notions about who you should be and who you are and who their Jesus is, and how they would know and a lot of it is based on stuff that didn't even ever happen or you were never like. And so ...

And stuff that can never happen even, like, a lot of them say, "Where's you on your white horse? Why can't every eye see you like the Bible said?" It's impossible for every eye to see me; we live on a globe, a sphere; some people point that way and other people point that way \- it's impossible for you to even see the sun at the same time - so how are you going to see an individual at the same time? It's impossible; they're wanting even what is impossible to be true and it's never going to happen; so they're going to be always disappointed, unless they change their concept of what's possible; that's the truth. So, yes, I sort of see it as unfortunate that most people are not very logically thinking when it comes to the issue of my identity; they're not thinking in any logical manner; no scientific thought is ever engaged when it comes to these questions because all that they're interested in doing is trying to prove that I'm not Jesus.

Well, that's like trying to prove that I am; it's impossible; give that up, too. It's actually impossible for you to prove that I'm not Jesus, unless you were present in my first century life, and through my spirit world and you know I'm not Jesus. That's the only way you're going to prove that I'm not Jesus, in fact. So, ironically, the only way that I can prove that I am, is also the only way that you can prove that I'm not. I find that quite ironic and quite funny, in a way. So, what I would suggest to people is to even perhaps give up this whole concept of trying to prove or not prove that I'm Jesus, and just listen to what has to be said and work out whether it makes sense, whether it's logical, whether it's loving, whether it's truthful.

**Mary:** And make a choice ...

And make a choice ...

**Mary:** ... if you want to listen or not.

If you want to listen: if you don't want to listen, don't; it doesn't worry me; it's only your life that's going to be affected by not listening. Like, so, and that's your choice; you're allowed to make that choice; God's giving you the right and the will to make that choice; you're allowed to do it; you don't have to believe that I'm Jesus, so stop trying to force me to believe that I'm not; you don't have to believe that I'm not, so stop trying to make me believe that I'm not. Like, I know what I know, and there's no one who is going to easily change my mind - when I say easily change my mind, they're not ever going to change my mind - I know who I am; I remember my experience; I know who I am.

It's just like if someone came along to Igor and said, "Igor, you're not Igor." He'll go, "Hang on a sec, I know my experience; I remembered my life; I've known everything about my life; of course I'm Igor," like, I know who I am and he'd just laugh at them probably. And unless they had some kind of evidence and some kind of proof that they could bring people in to say, "Well, actually you were born this person, and you were given to your mother and all that"; unless there was some kind of documentary proof or proof from an individual perspective, it'd be impossible to accept that he isn't Igor from his own perspective. Just like it's impossible for me to accept that I'm not Jesus from my own perspective. So, I suggest to people that they start thinking a bit more logically about these kinds of questions and, like, I do feel, that at some point in the future, not only will the fourteen, the twelve who have returned with me, who are currently present on earth, will be able to verify my identity; but also, I will have very many visitors who come from the spirit world who will be able to verify my identity to the average people on earth but that can only happen after I go through a process of love that I have to go through, where I release all of my fears, and I deal with all of my identity issues, myself, beforehand; then, it can all happen, and only then can it all happen; but even when that does happen, it may be that the average person on earth still doesn't accept it, because of the things we've already mentioned.

6. How many people have listened to your teachings?

Well, if you include the last two thousand years of my life, obviously, there have been many billions of people that have listened to my teachings. However, if you include this life on earth, and how many people on earth currently listen to my teachings, there are probably a few hundred thousand people that have listened to my teachings. I know that we've produced around a hundred thousand videos; I know that there have been about five hundred thousand views of videos on YouTube; I know there are around about, at the moment, around thirteen hundred regular subscribers to our YouTube channel; and I know that I've personally spoken to probably around twenty thousand people over the last ten years. So, that's how many people have actually listened to the teachings that I've presented on earth in this life. Yes, when I say there are a hundred thousand videos, I mean we've given away a hundred thousand DVDs and so, they're not all of different videos.

But there's obviously a significant amount of people, in that regard, who have heard of the Divine Truth. If you look at maybe what's happened in the media recently, then possibly there are millions of people that have heard of this guy who's in Australia, who is Allen John Miller, who claims to be Jesus but the majority of people don't actually listen to me. The majority of people, in fact, spend most of their time trying to criticise me, rather than listening to me; so, I would say that the majority of the thirteen hundred subscribers to our YouTube channel fall into that category, where they're very critical of pretty much everything I say because they want to be. As I said, they don't want to accept that I'm Jesus, and they don't even have to accept that I'm Jesus; they just don't want to accept what I'm saying, let alone that I'm Jesus and as a result, they feel very critical.

The majority of people, who have listened to us in the past, don't listen to us now for the same reason: sooner or later, I say something to them, personally or collectively, that either challenges them, or causes them to become afraid of something internally, usually it's afraid of public opinion, or some other kind of fear that they have that triggers their internal fears and as a result of that, most of the people don't want to listen after that point.

Most people on the planet are only used to listening to somebody who they can agree with; they're only used to listening to somebody who makes them feel good; and I don't do any of those things generally. So, the majority of people find me very difficult to listen to for extended periods of time; the majority of people who are listening to me still don't understand what I'm saying, either; they think they understand what I'm saying, and they try to apply it from an intellectual perspective, but they have very little understanding from a soul perspective of what's being said.

And they don't understand how to release emotion in order to understand: so the reality is, while many hundreds of thousands of people may have heard the message of Divine Truth, this time around on earth at this point in time, very few people actually understand it or actually are engaging it as I engage it.

**Mary:** And you mentioned a lot of big numbers about the numbers of DVDs that we've copied and given away, and the numbers of views on YouTube and those kinds of things, but is this a static number? Are there the same group of people still listening now as were listening ten years ago? Are there a growing number or a reducing number?

Well, like everything with Divine Truth, it's a slowly growing number: now the reason why it's slowly growing is because most people are very, very against receiving truth; most people are challenged on so many levels when they hear any truth that it takes them a long time before they accept any new truth; because of that, most people who listen to Divine Truth, who listen to what we teach, eventually leave it, because sooner or later it challenges them on some level. However, there is this other quality that exists within the human soul, and that is everyone, at some point, likes hearing the truth no matter how bad it is when you first hear it and as a result of that, there is a slowly growing number of people who want to listen to Divine Truth.

Now I believe that at some point in the future, that growth will be more rapid: however, I don't expect it to be more rapid because I know how difficult it is for people to hear things that they've never conceived of before, and that challenges all of their belief systems, and challenges all of their relationships, and challenges their very life and how they live their life. So I understand that hearing the Divine Truth is going to be very difficult for the majority of people initially but I do also believe that there are many people on earth who want to hear truth at some level; it just depends on whether that level is high enough to exceed the fear they're in. For the majority of people at the moment, the fear takes precedence over their desire for truth. In the future, I'm hopeful that the fear will reduce through the experience of their own fear and as a result the desire for truth will be greater than their own fear, and then, of course, more people will listen.

**Mary:** And would you say that more people have listened and left than have listened and stayed?

Certainly there'd be at least twenty times more people who have listened and left, than who have listened and stayed. In fact, the majority of those people who listen and leave haven't listened for any longer than two hours. In fact, I would say, the majority haven't listened for any longer than 15 minutes and the reason why is because within the first 15 minutes of talking to me, most people are severely challenged and as a result, they don't want to hear any more. So, and that of course, includes the people who, as soon as I say I'm Jesus, are severely challenged and the majority of people fall into that category, even you (Mary) when you first heard. So, the majority of people fall into the category, where as soon as they hear that I'm saying that I'm Jesus, they automatically do not want to listen to any more. Now in the majority of DVDs that I speak, that happens within the first 15 to 20 minutes of the conversation, particularly if they're listening to a "Secrets of the Universe" or an "Overview of Divine Truth".

And for that reason, the majority of people who listen for the first 15 to 20 minutes, and then as soon as I say that, their fear comes up - their fear of cults, or their fear of me, or their fear of what other people will think of them, or their fear of all sorts of things, most of which they don't even understand comes into them, and then they get angry or they get upset, or belittling, or whatever and they don't listen anymore. That's the reality of the presentations I give; so these people who accuse me, in the media or otherwise, of saying that I'm Jesus in order to get followers, have no understanding of reality. The reality is when I say I'm Jesus, the majority of people who would normally be willing to listen to me, don't listen to me anymore; that's the reality.

7. Why does the media often find you logical but call you crazy?

**Mary:** Recently, we had some people from the media come to visit us and they personally found many of the things that you talked about very interesting; they were quite engaged and they commented also that you were a quite logical person.

Even sometimes their families listen to what I have to say.

**Mary:** However, after they left, they claimed that you're in lala-land or that we were in lala-land. Why do you feel that that happened? Why do you feel that this is the case?

Well, I can't see how the media can claim anything else, at this point in time: because to claim that I'm actually sane, and logical - which is what most of them believe I am when they speak with me at least - they would then go against almost everything they personally have learned about Jesus, everything that they personally believe, and everything they know the public has learned about Jesus and believes. Now, for a person of the media to do that, they're going to need to have a lot of courage and the majority of people in the media, I've found, don't have a huge amount of courage at all; they are feeding the public with what they know the public wants to hear and in fact, the majority of the media who've had contact with us have not only fed the public with what they want to hear, but have created a fiction about us in order to feed the public what they want to hear.

In other words, most of what the media claims about us is completely false, actually, as you know: so I find it very interesting that they have to go down this particular route and I feel the main reason why they go down this route is because they are generally afraid of the public; and ironically, the very public that they say they serve, they are afraid of. It's interesting when we look at what happens with the media, if the media attack us, then the public support the media; if the media agrees with us, or treats us kindly, then the public attack the media; which is very interesting; and so, therefore, the media have a problem when it comes to our life.

And the problem is if they portray me as a sane, logical person who's claiming that he's Jesus, but not saying that he's God and saying he's just the same as any other man; and who presents a lot of logical facts about the universe, that can be verified through a person's own practice; then people in the public will condemn the media, because people in the public have a lot of religious beliefs.

In fact, there's 1.5 billion people on the planet who believe I am God - that Jesus is God, not I am God - and so therefore have a false belief about Jesus; and there are the others, many of them believe Jesus never existed, which is also a false belief; and many of them believe that Jesus is anti- their own religion - which is also a false belief - and if you add all the sum total of all these false beliefs up on the planet, there's not a single person on the planet who wants to believe that an average person like myself, Alan John Miller, can be Jesus. And that's what I generally find; there's not a single person on the planet who actually believes I am Jesus, as a result.

**Mary:** So, how does that relate to the media?

Well, the media have investments in portraying us as people that we are not. They have investments that are driven by their own fears, their fear of the public itself, and the fear of their own jobs, what their producers will do, what their organisations will do - if the members of the media portray us as we actually are. And I see this happening all the time when there is not a story that's good enough for what they believe it needs to be, they go and create one, fictitiously, in order to present so-called information to the public, which is not factual at all, but rather just a heap of lies. And why do they do that? Because they want to feed the public with what the public wants to hear; that's the only way, in todays media-based society, that you gain ratings - is by feeding the public with what the public wants to hear. Now, unfortunately, what the public wants to hear at this point in time is based on a lot of dark emotions that the public has within them.

So, the average person on this planet has a lot of very dark emotions - anger, sadness, grief, the sadness and grief aren't as dark as the anger; the anger is often terrifying. You can see their anger often reverts to violence; average people reverting to violence because of the rage that they are actually in, on all sorts of subjects. And, of course, this is very terrifying for the average person on the planet; so the average person on the planet conforms to the other average people on the planet, so they are not attacked by the average person. Now, because I don't conform to what the average person on the planet either believes, or accepts as truth, I am going to be the subject of ridicule and attack. It was exactly the same for me in the first century; I was the subject of ridicule and attack by the same kind of people who I am currently ridiculed and attacked by.

People in the media are like the people who held public opinion in the first century - the only difference is the media now is a mass media - in the first century, the only form of mass media was the written word, and that was only available, generally, to people who were very wealthy; in this life, mass media is available to everybody, pretty much everybody can access the media; and for that reason, it becomes a powerful tool to feed the public what they want to hear. Now I'm not interested in feeding the public what they want to hear; I'm only interested in feeding the public what is the truth, what I know to be the truth. That's my only criteria for what I speak of or if I'm asked my personal opinion - I will tell them the truth of my personal opinion; either one I'm happy to disclose.

Now the average person on the planet doesn't want to hear those things: they neither want to hear my own opinion, nor do they want to hear the truth of what is God's opinion about the universe itself, and their own life and their own belief systems and so forth; and for that reason they project at the media that the media must give them what they want, otherwise they will leave support of the media; and for that reason, the media gives the public, generally, what they want. So, even though the people who come to visit me, generally believe that I'm a very sane person who's very logical, and they can't often refute any of the things that I argue about or talk to them about, they wish to believe that I'm in la la-land, and there is a primary reason why they wish to believe it - because the alternative is unpalatable. The alternative is that I'm not in la la-land; the alternative is that I am Jesus and they don't want to accept that; nobody wants to come out and say that otherwise, they'd all be labelled as idiots and crazy.

Nobody wants to do that; so nobody wants to accept the alternative - and that is that I am the person that I'm claiming to be - and that is the main reason why they're ready to ridicule me, call me deceitful, lie about me, and so forth.

**Mary:** Just to clarify a few points there. You're saying that basically, unless the media attacks us, the media themselves ...

... will get attacked.

**Mary:** ... will get attacked. Second to that, you're sort of saying that the media is engaged in the business of giving people what they want, actually.

Yes.

**Mary:** To avoid attack, but also to maintain their financial position in terms of advertising ...

Well, and let's look at what the public really wants: what the public really wants is for their fear to be confirmed, that's what the public really wants; the public is addicted to having the fear, their own fear, confirmed - so, if their fear is about cults, they want their fear confirmed - they don't care that all I do is go around and do seminars; that I have no cult in my backyard; that I have no people living with me; they don't care about any of those things; they want their fear confirmed so they want to be told that I'm running a cult, that I have a compound, that ... none of the things are true. They want to be told these things because then their fear gets confirmed. If all you want is your fear confirmed, then you're going to get told a whole lot of lies just to have your fear confirmed and I'm not in the business of doing that, but the media are; many of the media are; not all of the media, we've had interactions with different members of the media that are not like that but they're not very popular.

**Mary:** This is what ... yes. Okay, so, that's what I also wanted to bring up with you. Recently we've had some other media where people were not ...

Where the media, themselves, were not attacking.

**Mary:** ... were not attacking and they didn't tell lies about us, for example.

No, they still asked many, what I felt were ludicrous questions: in other words, not logical questions if they really, truly thought about them but, they weren't attacking and they weren't belittling, when they had their personal engagement with us and I feel that that's probably a fairer way of dealing with the media. However, many of their listeners were not happy with that; they believed they should treat us with a lot of disrespect, as a result; and that's because the average person on the planet does treat other people with disrespect; and particularly treats other people with disrespect who have different beliefs than they do and that's how the average person on the planet operates; and until that changes, I can't see any of the attitudes towards ourselves changing.

**Mary:** Well, you're saying that the media is a reflection of the public.

Yes, you can't blame the media for what it does, because all it's really doing is feeding the public what they want; and it's the same with politicians, you can't blame the politicians for what they do, they're just feeding the public with what they want; you can't blame the religious leaders for what they do, they're just feeding the public with what they want.

I'm not in the business of feeding the public what they want; that's why I'm generally criticised - I'm not in a business at all, in fact - all I want to do is tell the truth of what I know to be true; that is very unusual on this planet; most people don't do that; most people, instead, tell people what they want to hear.

If you wish to only hear what you want to hear, my suggestion is go and find somebody who will do that for you: they're not your friends; they don't even love you; they're just manipulating you, that's all they're doing; because a person who truly loves you, will tell you what they know to be true, whether you want to hear it or not; that's what a person who loves you will do.

If you're willing to hear it, they will tell you, if you're not willing to hear it, of course, they won't; but they will wish to tell you what is true; and my feelings are the public itself - the general person on this planet - has a deep desire to avoid truth; they have a deep desire to avoid personal truth; they have a deep desire to avoid universal truth, because it confronts their personal truth. As a result, the average person on this planet does not want to hear the truth; they like hearing the lies. Ironically though, when somebody tells lies about them, now they're all up in arms; now they're all upset. So they want to have other people hear the truth about them, but they want to hear lies about everything else; and it's very hypocritical actually. Until that general problem is resolved on the planet, truth will be very difficult to tell on the planet.

And will also be very difficult to discover, because we'll be limited by the lies constantly; we'll be limited by the desire to not hear truth, rather than the desire to hear truth. So I feel it's a big problem \- and we can talk more in another question about why it's such a large problem - that, to me, is the biggest issue.

In order to summarise this question, I feel it's this: it's preferable for most people on the planet to believe I'm delusional, insane, crazy, deceitful, a liar, than it is for them to accept that I am the person I'm claiming to be; and I understand that; I understand all the reasons why they're in that place where they want to believe that I'm not Jesus for all of their own reasons; but just because everyone on this planet doesn't believe I'm Jesus, it doesn't mean that I'm not.

In the first century, when I began doing what I was doing, nobody believed I was the Messiah but now there are literally billions of people in the spirit world who know I am; and that happened over time because of what I taught. So, it's the same now; I just feel it's exactly the same now. We have huge investments, the average person has huge investments in not believing anything other than bad about me, because of my claim that I'm Jesus; and, they have huge emotional investments in doing so; and until they're willing to confront such emotional investments, they're not going to listen to a word I say, even though it is very logical. And even though it makes a lot of sense and even though they've never heard it before, they will not listen to it until they break through these barriers of belief that occur as a result of their own indoctrination.

So, my suggestion to people is break through these barriers as soon as you're able, because without breaking through those barriers, you're not going to resolve any issue of truth and I hope that at some point you do it, while you're on earth. If you don't do it while you're on earth, you'll be able to do it in the spirit world, because all those people, that I said could come to you, and confirm my identity, they'll be able to come to you if you ask them to, and confirm who I am; they won't have any trouble doing so.

And it will only get down to what you believe in the end; the sincerity that you feel in those individuals as to whether you're going to believe them or not. Just as, it really gets down to whether you believe I'm sincere or not, as to whether you're going to believe me about my identity.

8. How many people completely believe you are Jesus?

**Mary:** In your opinion, how many people who listen to you believe completely that you are Jesus, and have resolved this issue within themselves?

None, not one: if I think about all the people I've personally spoken to over the last 9 years, it's probably around about 20,000 people or so; of those 20,000 people, around about, at the moment, about just over a thousand regularly listen and so, of the 20,000, you could basically say 20,000, there have been 20 times the number of people who have stopped listening than there are people who currently listen; now, of those 1,000 people, I would say about a hundred donate to us regularly, of those 1,000 people - so the majority of people who listen to us regularly do not donate to us at all; the majority of people just listen - a lot of them listen so that they have something to complain about, and something to criticise; and a lot of them listen, they feel benefitted in their life, but not benefitted enough to donate to us or support us.

Around a hundred or so support us regularly, and of course, we're very thankful to those hundred or so people who do that; of those hundred, probably around twenty of them have started to address the issue of whether I'm Jesus or not.

**Mary:** What do you mean by that?

Well, there are a lot of emotional reasons, or emotional things a person needs to work their way through in order to accept whether I'm Jesus or not; of those one hundred, many of them would believe they've resolved the issue of my identity, but the reality is they've only be told by spirits what my identity is and they themselves have yet to personally resolve the issues regarding my identity. In other words, they're yet to process through the emotional things that they're going to have to process through in order to resolve the question as to whether I am Jesus or not. Now, around 20 people have started to engage that process and so those 20 people or so have really started to put into practice the principles of Divine Truth in their personal life, and they've started to - through their personal practice - realise that the majority of things that I'm teaching are true; and as a result of that, they have a much higher feeling inside of themselves that's their own feeling, that I am probably the Jesus that I'm claiming to be.

But, none of them have known me for two thousand years, except for two of those 20 people, yourself and Corny, Cornelius. So, two of those twenty people have known me for two thousand years; but, of course, both of you, Corny and yourself, still have yet to resolve a lot of issues with me, in terms of your personal acceptance of your own memories and feelings, and also being openly able to say to other people that I am Jesus, without feeling personally embarrassed or some other emotion and none have actually ever, personally, fully resolved the issue to the point where they have no more fear about it and they know for certain that I'm Jesus, and they have no more fear regarding the question. No one on earth has done that at this point. So, that bodes well, that's after 9 years of speaking publicly, there's not ...

**Mary:** Is that sarcasm?

No, I'm just making fun. I find it interesting because I have regularly said to people that unless they finish up resolving that particular issue, they will eventually leave the teachings of Divine Truth and that is true. Sooner or later, the majority of people leave the teachings of Divine Truth because of this one issue because they cannot believe that I'm Jesus.

**Mary:** But, if we go back to some earlier questions, where we discussed the issue of proof, we established, pretty much, that it's impossible to prove to someone who you are.

Exactly, so it doesn't make any logical sense to leave the teachings because I'm Jesus. Can you see the logic? It doesn't make any logical sense to leave the teachings because I'm saying that I'm Jesus; you need to have a better reason than that, really, to leave the teachings, because there is no way you can prove whether I'm Jesus or not. So, it doesn't make any logical sense to leave the teachings because you don't believe that I'm Jesus. If you're going to leave the teachings, leave the teachings because the teachings don't make any sense; leave the teachings because of some other reason, other than he's saying he's Jesus and I can't believe him; that makes no logical sense, because you can't prove or disprove that; so why leave a teaching when you can't prove the reason why you left? It makes no logical sense.

**Mary:** But, just to clarify, you're saying that most people are going to leave because they don't resolve, emotionally, who you are ...

Or they cannot get away from the fact that I'm claiming that I'm Jesus and that they cannot get away from the fact that they don't believe it and sooner or later, I say something that challenges them, and, of course, not believing that I'm Jesus, or believing that I'm not Jesus, helps you not deal with the challenge. In other words, the majority of people, when I say something to them that challenges them personally, emotionally, they revert to, "He's not Jesus," rather than thinking, "Is what he said about that right or not?" Because they don't want to go, "Yes, what he said about that was right." And that then means a large change in their life; they don't want to do that; and so what they do, instead, is they always hold this issue of whether I'm Jesus in abeyance for a later out - it's an out clause. It gives everyone a great out clause because it gives them a way to escape from the truth if they need it, if they believe they need it.

And this is what I find happening constantly: people constantly leave the Divine Truth, not for any other reason than saying that they don't believe that I'm Jesus; but the reality is that's not the real reason they left; the real reason they left was because I said something that challenges their very way of life, their very core of being - and we'll talk about this in a later question perhaps - and as a result of the challenge, they then use the excuse - he's saying he's Jesus and I don't believe he is - as the reason for leaving. And yet that's illogical, because it's impossible to prove that I'm not Jesus, just as it's impossible to prove that I am.

**Mary:** And this question, though, is speaking about people who believe completely that you are Jesus ...

Yes, there is no one.

**Mary:** There's no one but in your answer you implied that people could reach a point of complete belief that you are.

Yes, but they're not going to do it by any evidence other than the two evidences that I have already presented. Which is - well, there are probably three - the first one is, I present an accurate record of my own life, just like anybody on this planet can present, generally, an accurate record of their own life; secondly, that record is corroborated by other people who have been with me through my life, whether that is now or in the first century, or in the spirit world, or all three; thirdly, that other people in the spirit world that they cannot see corroborate this evidence. That's the only evidence I can provide, and it's the only evidence that anybody can provide that they are the person they actually are.

**Mary:** So, are you saying that to emotionally resolve who you are, people must consult these three things?

Yes.

**Mary:** And that's the only way to emotionally resolve who you are?

Yes. And, in other words, they're going to have to ask me about my life. Just like if I had to resolve who Igor is, I would ask him about his life. It's the most logical thing for me to do. I go, "Where is your life, Igor? Tell me about your life. How did you grow up? Who were your parents? What happened here? What happened there? What happened during this life? These books that were written about you say that did this, is that true?" This is the kind of dialogue that I would have with Igor, if I wanted to find out about Igor's life. I would then be able to talk to and communicate with the people who know Igor from his life and I would ask them the same kind of thing and this is what I would do if I wanted to find out the truth about whether Igor, is Igor. In other words, if I didn't want to believe that Igor is saying that he's Igor, and I didn't want to believe him, and I wanted some evidence, this is what I would do.

Ironically, this is not what people do with me and the reason why they don't do it with me is because they have all these investments, already, in me not being Jesus. They don't want to consider that as a possibility. So, I don't get asked questions about my life. I don't get asked questions about what happened here, what happened there? Who did I know? I don't get asked any of these questions because nobody believes it's true in the first place - that's why I don't get asked. And yet, if you think about how do you get to know any other person, that's exactly how you get to know them. And I find this is a remarkable thing about people generally in their dealings with me. How they treat the average person is completely different to how they treat me.

**Mary:** So, from what you're saying there though, it appears that people would need to deal with the emotional reasons why they do not approach you in that way ...

Exactly.

**Mary:** ... before they will then approach you in that way ...

Exactly.

**Mary:** ... and once they approach you in that way, then at least they have more evidence with which to resolve the issue.

Exactly, without having an open approach to somebody: so, if I hear Igor saying, "I am Igor Shakhanova" and I hear him saying that on television, and I go, "I don't believe him." How many people would actually even consider doing that? The majority of people would never consider doing that except with Jesus, by the way. But the majority of people, when the average person gets up, and I feel I'm an average person - but apparently I'm not according to everybody else - and the average person gets up in front of the television and says, "I'm Igor Shakhanova and I'm saying this and this, this is what happened in my life." The average person would go, "No worries. I accept that," unless there is evidence to the contrary. With me, that's not the case. What they do is, "No, that's all rubbish," unless you can provide me evidence to the contrary. Now I can provide a lot of evidence to the contrary, that it's not rubbish, but nobody wants to hear it because they've already made up their mind before they've even spoken, before they even hear anything more.

They've already made up their mind that I'm an idiot; they've already made up their mind that I'm a nut case, that I'm delusional; that I'm whatever they want to believe I am, deceitful or whatever; they've already made up their mind. And as a result, they never get to ask the questions that would normally be asked in order to satisfy their own curiosity to find out the truth and I find that's ironic.

**Mary:** Yes, it's ironic. I also find it's very interesting because when I see people approaching this issue of emotionally resolving who you are, I don't see them looking to your life.

No.

**Mary:** I see them looking to miraculous signs, your ability to heal, your ability to read their mind, your capacity to love, even. Any of these things, they use them as a measure and not actually the life that you have had and your ability to recount it and the ability of others around you to say I was there during that life.

Exactly.

**Mary:** I think most people feel that, in order to emotionally resolve who you are, they have to see proof, which is not necessarily in alignment with what you're even promising to be able to do.

No, and also, it's not proof: it's not actually proof, like, me doing a miracle is not proof that I'm Jesus, it's just proof that I can do a miracle; me, reading a person's mind is not proof that I'm Jesus, it's just proof that I can read their mind; me, understanding their emotions is not proof that I'm Jesus, it's just proof that I can understand emotions. None of it's proof.

**Mary:** And, I guess you're coming from the knowledge that you are a regular guy, a child of God, just like everyone else, who has a particular passion for God and teaching God's Truth, and a deep desire to connect with God. You know this ...

And I feel that everyone else has the potential to do the same. And, on top of that, if I were finding out about somebody else, I would ask them the questions about their life. In fact, I do, as you know, ask them, always, questions about their life - what happened here, what happened there, what happened here when you were growing up? This is how I get to know them; nobody does that with me.

**Mary:** Because they don't view you in that same way. They don't view you in the way you view you. That's what I was trying to get at. They don't see that ...

Not only that, they don't view me ... they don't think the normal rules of engagement apply to me. So it's not only that they don't ... because they already believe that I'm a liar. They already believe that I'm delusional before we begin. So, if I believe you're delusional before I begin an interaction with you - it's highly unlikely I'm going to listen to anything you say, about your own life, about the life of others, about whatever was the truth about what happened; anything, I'm not going to believe anything. That's the out-clause. The out-clause is, "I don't have to believe you, because you're delusional, or because you're deceitful, or whatever." I don't even give you the chance to show whether you're deceitful or delusional, or not. I just go ahead and make that judgment call.

**Mary:** Yes, and this occurs even for people who attend our seminars regularly.

All the time, there are people who have been attending our seminars for six years, who still do it with me, who still treat me like this; they have no idea, they have no idea about my personal life at all, none whatsoever; they think they do, because of what they've heard, but they have no idea: they don't know how I grew up; they don't know my family; they wouldn't be able to even name my brother's name, or my sister's name - the majority of people who know me right now wouldn't be able to name my brother or sister's name; they wouldn't know, or even be able to name my children's names, that's the reality. That's how little they want to know about my life and the reason why they want to know so little about my life is because anything they find out about my life might challenge their viewpoint that I'm delusional or that I'm a nutcase, or that I'm deceitful and they don't want that belief challenged. They want to remain in that belief.

And why do they want to remain in that belief, because it helps them get away with anything that I might say that might be challenging. So, if I say something to them that's challenging, they can go, "He's just an idiot," or "He's just deceitful," or "He's just manipulative," or "He's just whatever." Without there being any proof of such things. They can say it, because it lets them off the hook with regards to listening to what I've said; and I find that's the primary reason why most people don't want to hear what I said; and this is the primary reason why nobody really believes who I am because nobody, has really engaged the question about what's happened in my life.

Even you (Mary) haven't if you think about it and it's only recently that you've started engaging those kinds of questions and this is because you didn't want to have your experience tainted, and I understand that; but at the end of the day, how do you get to know somebody, really, without engaging all of these questions? You can't, really and I find the irony of it quite remarkable in a lot of ways in that this general concept that the normal way of getting to know someone doesn't apply to Jesus.

The way of getting to know Jesus is get him to perform a miracle for you, then you know him - no, you don't, you don't know anything. You don't know anything about me if I perform a miracle, whether I could or not; all you know in that moment is that I can perform the miracle that you wanted; that's all you know, nothing else.

**Mary:** But people have a whole lot of preconceptions about your nature and character, anyway.

Of course.

**Mary:** They believe that if you did the miracle that would prove that you're the Jesus that they already have a preconception about.

And it's not going to be.

**Mary:** Which none of this is actually you.

Yes, the conception of Jesus on this planet two thousand years away from when I was on earth before, is completely different to the person I was: the conception of Jesus on this planet at the moment is terrible, to be frank, like I'm a much better person than the average person believes Jesus to be. Because the average person believes Jesus would come and murder billions of people. Of course, I'm never going to murder millions of people; I'm not a genocidal maniac.

**Mary:** But even in the first century, most people we knew didn't know you.

No, I agree.

**Mary:** They didn't know your character and nature.

No, they just, again, did the same thing as what they do with me now, and that is base it on their own ... I challenge so many things, let's face it, in terms of inside of a person when they speak to me; and not because I want to, but just because the truth challenges people automatically, that people become frightened, scared, angry, abusive and all these other things before they want to know me. And I feel like that's fine if that's what they want to choose to do but don't think you know me from a book, don't think you know me because you have some kind of guess of what I might do.

The reality is unless you are at-one with God yourself, you don't know me and that's what I said in the first century as well: unless your Father is my Father in the same manner that I am the son of my Father - in the sense of at-one with God - unless your Father is my Father, in that manner, that you are at-one with God, you will not know me because you won't know what I'm going to do in any circumstance or situation; you won't be able to guess because when a person is at-one with God, they would choose to do things completely differently than the average person on the planet.

**Mary:** Yes, only because the average person on the planet is so far from God right now. If we're all ...

Exactly, and also so steeped in fear.

**Mary:** If we're all closer to God and had less fear, then a person at-one with God wouldn't be so out of the ordinary.

Exactly, exactly, so, the average person on the planet, I understand where they're coming from; I understand that they've got all of these preconceptions, thousands of years of them in fact, all added up into them, all converging into their mind; and they've got books, four of them in fact, in the gospel account, that they believe are an accurate reflection of my nature and character, which they are not. And they've got all these things that they reckon that I was like this, or like that. I get so many people tell me, "I know you're not Jesus because Jesus would do this, or Jesus would do that." And I go, "Oh, goodness me." Like, how arrogant is that, telling Jesus that you know he's not Jesus because your concept of Jesus, two thousand years removed from when I existed on earth, is now true. How can you believe that your concept of somebody who lived two thousand years ago is true, even?

How could you have that much arrogance to believe that? Honestly, you've got to be extremely arrogant to believe that your concept of somebody who lived two thousand years ago is accurate; because there's been so much distortion, historically, of any single person who has ever lived through history - let alone a person who has as much, shall we call it infamy, or fame, as I do - and so, yes, you're just not going to have an accurate concept of me at all. So, stop believing that you do, and just start listening instead. That's my suggestion, have a listen, instead of worrying about whether I'm going to take your money. I do everything for free, how can I take your money. Like, don't worry about that. Listen to what's being said, and listen to the reasonableness of it. Put it into practice in your day-to-day life. You don't even have to pay me a cent to do that. Go and do it before you make any judgments, rather than just making judgments on face value, which is all based around your own emotional inability to cope with the fact that I'm Jesus.

And that's what I feel the majority of people need to do: they have an emotional inability to cope with the fact that I'm Jesus; that's all, and that's what's driving everything. And my suggestion to them is, deal with that. Like, there's no way you can prove that I'm not Jesus, so deal with that. There's no way I'm going to prove that I am, deal with that too. If you want proof, it can only be established using the same method that you can establish your own identity to other people, and that is the people who knew you from the time of your birth to right now, have to testify to your identity. And, sooner or later, that's going to happen with me, and also I can testify to my own identity through my own experience, which is what the average person can do. So, unless you're willing and prepared to accept those things, you're not ... no matter what I do, whatever miracles I perform. I could levitate in the sky, it wouldn't make any difference; all it does is prove that I can levitate; it doesn't prove that I'm Jesus.

**Mary:** People are just terrified, aren't they, that if they believe that you're Jesus, that somehow this will affect their ability to make rational decisions and use their own will.

Yes. I'm totally confused about that, considering the fact that I'm a very rational person, and encourage people to use their own will. I feel, though, a lot of it is about confrontation of beliefs, honestly. The majority of people who come to me, and say to me, "I don't want to listen to Divine Truth anymore because you're saying you're Jesus, and I know you're not." I go, "Yes, you don't know I'm not. That's impossible to know that I'm not in your condition, in your position - impossible. You've not asked anybody; none of the people who I knew, have you ever spoken to, so, of course, you don't know whether I am or not. So, what's your real reason?" And the real reason is often that they've been confronted, at some level, which we can talk about later; there are a lot of ways people get confronted - and I think there's a question later that we'll talk about the ways in which people get confronted and how they get confronted through their interaction with Divine Truth.

**Mary:** Yes, lots more I could say on that issue, but let's move on.

### 9. What do most people say when they leave your teachings?

**Mary:** So, you've had at least 20,000 people listen to you, and most of them no longer listen. What do most people say to you when they leave your teachings?

Well, yes, I've had 20,000 people listen to me in this life, face-to-face, shall we say. Obviously, millions and millions of people have listened to me over history, but 20,000 people have listened to me face-to-face in this life. Without exception, every single person who is now no longer listening to me, who has told me why they're no longer listening to me has said they don't listen to me anymore because they can't believe that I'm Jesus: or, to put it more succinctly, they usually say they know that I'm not Jesus, and that's why they don't listen to me anymore; they don't not listen to me because what I say is illogical; they don't say it's because they can't believe it; it's only the stuff about being Jesus they feel they can't believe; and they say, categorically, that they know that I'm not Jesus.

And I think, yes, I'm sorry, but you're being really illogical now, because there is no way that you could know that I'm not Jesus: unless you were with me in my first century life, with me throughout my spirit life, saw my return through your spirit eyes, and then returned to earth with me, and then have lived this life with me, there is no way that you can prove that I'm not Jesus. So, it's an illogical statement to say that you're not listening to me anymore because I'm not Jesus; the reason why you're not listening to me anymore is because I said something that confronts you, and you don't want to listen to it anymore; so, be honest about that, say, "Yes, I don't like what you said about this, so I don't want to hear anymore." That's fine; do that because it's impossible for you to prove that I'm not Jesus and it's impossible for you to know that I'm not Jesus, impossible.

And while it's like that, anytime you say to me that you are not listening any more, or you refused to listen right from the beginning because I'm saying that I'm Jesus, you are being very illogical and unreasonable; it's a very unreasonable thing to do. Now, I think it's very reasonable to say to me, "I'm not listening to you anymore because you don't make any sense" or, "I'm not listening to you anymore because I believe you're a scoundrel and because I've got proof that you are" or, "I'm not listening to you anymore because you lie all the time, and I can't abide lies," or whatever; now that would make sense to me. Of course, none of those things are true, but it would make sense to me, if you said those things, or whether you believed them even, than it would to say I'm not listening anymore because I know that you're not Jesus. And I feel it's quite amazing that the majority of people think that that is a valid reason to not listen to somebody; I listen to everybody and they're not Jesus.

When Igor comes and talks to me in my house, and says to me, "AJ, I think you should do this." I go, "Yes, that's a good idea, actually." I listen to him because I evaluate everything that's said to me, based on its logic, based on its reasonableness, based on the love that's in it, based on the truth that's in it; not based on the individual that's telling me it, even; and so I don't expect Igor to be Jesus before I listen to him. So, why would you expect me to be Jesus before you listen to me; that doesn't make any logical sense either. So, I feel there's a lot of illogical behaviour when it comes to people's assessment of my identity.

10. What reasons do people give for not believing you're Jesus?

**Mary:** When most people leave your teachings they say it's because they know that you're not Jesus. What reasons do they give you as to why they can't believe that you're Jesus?

I would say the majority of people who say that they can't believe I'm Jesus, it's because I've said something that they believe isn't true about themselves: so, they might have come up and asked me how do I feel about their position with something and most of the time they expect me to answer a certain way, because they expect Jesus to answer a certain way; and of course, when I just tell them the truth, usually they can't handle that truth, generally emotionally, and so what they do is they get upset; and then, of course, they're looking for a reason to not listen to it; and, of course, the easiest justification is he's not Jesus anyway, so I don't have to listen to him.

**Mary:** So, would you say that the most common thing is that they don't give you a reason?

The majority of people don't give me a reason other than saying that they know that I'm not Jesus: and I ask them how they know, and oftentimes they say, "I just know" and that's it; but I know the majority of times why they've left. The majority of times I understand why they've left because I've told them, in advance, what their issues are that I know they'll eventually leave listening to the Divine Truth and use those particular things as reasons to leave; so, for the majority of people, it is all about this issue of whenever they have an emotional confrontation of a belief system inside of themselves that they can't emotionally - or believe they can't emotionally handle - they revert to the excuse of he's not Jesus, so I'm not listening to him. But, ironically, they will still listen to everybody else, even though everybody else isn't Jesus either.

So that tells me it's not a very logical decision: you'll still listen to your wife, and she's not Jesus; you still listen to your father, and he's not Jesus; you still listen to your friends, and they're not Jesus; and so you're saying you're not listening to the one guy because he's saying he's Jesus. That doesn't make much sense, particularly when you listened to him before and you thought everything he said was logical about everyone else. Most of the time it's been totally because of that one reason.

**Mary:** So you said something they couldn't agree with, or they have an expectation of you to be a certain way that you aren't?

Yes, and in that regard the expectation that I'd be a certain way: for example, most people have an expectation that I know everything, and, "Well, do you know everything?" So, I'm a person; I'm telling you I'm a man, and I don't know everything because I'm a man; I'm not omniscient - I'm not God - I keep telling people I'm not God. And they go, "But Jesus would know everything." No, Jesus doesn't know everything; I'm sorry, I'm Jesus, and I don't know everything - I'm telling you, Jesus doesn't know everything. And logically it's impossible for me to know everything, actually because from God's perspective, God is infinite, all of God's Truths are infinite: I'm a finite man who is slowly learning more and more of God's Truths; at any one point in time, I will not know everything; I can't. In fact, my opinion is I know very little and if you expect me to know everything, then you're expecting me to be God; that's not very reasonable when I've told you I'm not God.

So, even their expectations are way out of harmony with what I'm teaching: so, if a person after listening to me, says, "Oh, you're not Jesus because you didn't get everything right." I go, "But I've said I don't get everything right before I began. Before you knew me, I was saying that I don't get everything right." Even after I become at-one with God, I'm not going to get everything right, because knowledge is not the worry; the issue, from God's perspective, in terms of perfection, is are you perfect in love, not are you perfect in knowledge? The only Being in the Universe who is perfect in knowledge is a person who doesn't exist in the universe, and that's God; God doesn't exist in the universe even, because God's more infinite than the universe itself, so God doesn't exist in the universe; and God's the only person with all the knowledge, with all the Truth - God's the only person. And if you expect me to be in the universe, and be all knowing, it's a physical impossibility; because to be all knowing, I'd have to exist larger than the universe and that's a physical impossibility too.

So you're asking a lot of physical impossibilities by expecting me to be all knowing: scientifically it's impossible for me to be all knowing, and exist inside the universe; so it makes no sense from a scientific perspective, from a physical perspective, from a spiritual perspective. It makes no sense at all that a person requires that I know everything and yet, there are a lot of people who come along to the seminars, and when I don't have an answer for them, they go, "Well, he should know, he's Jesus." Basically you're saying, "He should know, he's God." And I've already told you I'm not God, so you're not believing me when I say I'm not God; you expect me to be God. Jesus isn't God; never will be God; never can be God because I am a created soul, just the same as you are. That's the whole point. So that's another reason why people feel that I can't be Jesus, because I'm not all knowing. And I say, "Yes, I'm not all knowing."

Another reason why they say I can't be Jesus is because I make mistakes, but I say of course I make mistakes, that's how you learn actually, by making mistakes. So, you're expecting me to be perfect before I'm perfect; you're expecting me to be perfect in knowledge and only God can be that; and you're expecting me to be perfect in love before I'm perfect, and I've told you I'm not; so how can you expect me to be perfect in everything I do?

I don't understand; why would you stop listening on that basis? I don't stop listening to you, even though I know you're not perfect. So why do you stop listening to me just because I'm not perfect? Can you see, for some reason, the rules about Jesus apply differently for me to everybody else - that's how everybody thinks; it's not true - I'm under the same rules, the same laws, and the same government as God has imposed upon every one of Her children but everyone wants to believe that somehow the rules don't apply to me, which is a part of their false beliefs, again being challenged.

And yet they leave Divine Truth because of that; I would never leave Divine Truth because of that, but that's just me. What other reasons are there, that I can think of that people say that they can't believe I'm Jesus? There's quite a lot that all get back to the same statement - that they can't believe I'm Jesus so therefore they can't listen anymore - you know most of them yourself, don't you.

**Mary:** Yes, it's mainly to do with ... I just see people get emotionally challenged by something that you do. Or their perception of love is that love pleases ...

... panders ...

**Mary:** ... panders ...

... panders to their addictions.

**Mary:** ... pleases their addictions, makes them feel comfortable all of the time.

Yes and this is like the amount of times people come up to me and I can feel, yes, you don't want the truth, you want to only hear what you're now going to ask me the question about, and I know the answer you want; already, I know it before you begin; I can feel it; a lot of times I can read people's minds, that's the truth; and I can feel their intention and their intention is - ask a question, he'll give you the nice addiction being met because he's Jesus; he'll look after you; he'll make you feel good about yourself. And when I don't do that, they're just angry - angry, bitter and twisted - and there have been so many people that have come along to one seminar, came up, asked me a question, I give them an answer they don't want to hear, and they never want to see me again and they spend the rest of their life criticising me on the internet just because they heard something they don't want to hear and I find that's quite funny, really and in some ways it's sad.

**Mary:** I think it's sad for people ...

Well it's funny in a way too, because it just is an indication of how little they really wanted to hear the truth: they're claiming, falsely, to other people and themselves that they want to hear the truth; when they ask a question where somebody gives them the truth, they don't want to receive the answer; and, in fact, are willing to abuse the person for the rest of their life; that's an indication of how little they want to hear the truth. It's quite funny.

**Mary:** Yes, people live most of their lives like this. Like, if they say to their husband, "Does my bum look big in it?" And he goes, "Well, yes." Then, most women that's ...

... then like this is divorce.

**Mary:** Well, not a divorce, but often like, an emotional ...

No sex for weeks on end.

**Mary:** Yes.

You said my bum's fat so I'm not having sex with you now.

**Mary:** Well, but I mean that's even more extreme than - like most women maybe wouldn't be like that, but there would be a chilling feeling towards their husband for the next three hours.

Of course, that's why most husbands are afraid to say it.

**Mary:** But it's exactly the same thing: people don't want the truth and they're willing to be cruel in response to receiving the truth.

Yes, they want to shoot the messenger, even if the messenger is stating the truth.

**Mary:** And even if they ask the question.

And even if they ask the question: so they set up the messenger to be able to shoot him later; and you see this happening a lot in relationships; and you see it happening a lot in life, generally, where people are set up, so that you can shoot them down; and that's a cruel way of living your life, and it's certainly never going to be a life that's harmonious with God's Love or God's Laws; and therefore, never going to be a life of miracles, if we classify a miracle as living in harmony with God's Higher Laws.

**Mary:** Yes.

So, yes, and although it's sad, it's a self-imposed thing that people have; so, it's sad that they choose to do it, but it is also self-imposed; it's to do with the degree of arrogance that the average person has towards receiving truth - they don't want to receive it. Why don't they want to receive it? Because they don't want to feel the emotion involved in receiving it: so the woman who's got a fat backside, doesn't want to feel she's got a fat backside, even when she knows she has; she doesn't want to feel it and she knows she's got to do something about it and she might even feel powerless about doing something about it, because of how her addictions lead her to eat, or whatever it is that causes her to do it, to put on the weight in those locations. But, she doesn't still want to hear the truth; she's got all this hurt she doesn't want to feel; if she was willing to feel all the hurt, ironically, not only would she receive the truth, but the fat would fall off her backside.

And that's the same as all of us, really, in the end of the day, if we were open to receiving the truth, not only would we receive the truth, but there would be benefits to our life as a result of receiving the truth, that we would feel the rest of our lives.

11. How do you feel when people reject teachings because of your identity?

**Mary:** What do you feel when people reject everything you say just because they can't accept your identity?

Well, in terms of personal feelings, I don't feel personally hurt in any way: I just feel like, well, any conversation with them is fairly pointless because if that's the only reason why you're going to reject what somebody says because they're not Jesus, or you don't believe they're Jesus, when they're saying they are, then I suggest to the person it's not a very good reason to reject anything. Like, I don't reject them because they're not Jesus; so, why would they reject me if they believe I'm not Jesus? Like, it doesn't make any logical sense to me. So, my personal feelings are probably just one of feeling a bit sorry for them in fact, because I just feel sorry for anybody who rejects truth just because the person giving it isn't the person they want them to be; or they reject truth because the person giving it doesn't meet their addictions and demands; or the person who's telling them the truth is not the person they hoped the person would be. Like, it's sad that anybody would reject truth on any of those bases.

So, I feel that rejecting the truth for any of those reasons is not a good reason to reject the truth: so for that reason, I accept truth from children because sometimes it's beautiful, accepting the truth from children; it is the truth and what they're saying to you is the truth; I accept the truth from people who I know are just bitterly angry with me sometimes, because I know what they're saying is the truth and I don't have any feeling they have to be something before I'll accept the truth from them.

But there is this great feeling on this planet that you have to be someone important before people will listen to you and I find that's pretty sad because why do you have to be someone important before anybody will listen to you? Like it doesn't make any sense to me either, logically: we're all children of God, therefore we're all equal; therefore each of us have a valid thing to say and the more we say that's harmonious with love, the more valid it is.

The less we say harmonious with love, then the less valid it is: it doesn't matter what they claim themselves to be; what matters is whether it's valid from a consideration of love or not; that's really the only real point of questioning, I feel, about whether you should receive something; Is it loving? Is the concept loving? Is it logical? Is it loving? And you would accept them no matter where it's from. So, I feel that people's reasons for doing that are fairly, again illogically conceived.

I believe though, that for the majority of people, they have a strong desire to reject truth just because it's going to cause some of their own personal fears to be exposed and rather than have their personal fears exposed, and then have to be felt, they would prefer to have their personal fears suppressed. And the way to suppress fear is to tell the person a lie; so, it's one of the main methods that we use on the planet in order to suppress a person's fear. So, in a previous question we talked about the fat woman's backside, or the woman's fat backside, shall we say: the fear she has is that she has got a fat backside and the fear she has is she doesn't look good like that and the fear she has is that other people make fun of her like that; and these fears all add up. And so when she goes up to her husband and says, "Do you think I look fat in these jeans?" she's got all these preconceived fears - whether they're valid or not is immaterial - she's got all these fears that she doesn't want to feel and she is really asking her husband to allay the fear, to make the fear go away.

And the majority, who come up to question me, are questioning me because they want their fear to go away; they don't want to know the truth; they want their fear to disappear and I'm not in the business of making fear disappear. In fact, I want fear to be exposed; I want fear to be addressed; that's what God wants; that's what all of God's Laws are, all God's Laws are love-based, and there is no fear in love, so all of God's Laws are fearless. And I would like people to address their fears so I'm not going to help a person, sit in their fear and I'm not going to say things to them that are going to help them do that and a lot of people are very confronted with that.

One of the things with regard to people terminating their friendship with me, or rejecting things that I say - and a lot of times it is like a physical termination of the friendship - so they enter a friendship, a dialogue with me, we become friends over time, then I say something that generally confronts them, and then they decide they're going to terminate the friendship. And they write me a termination letter, generally, where they say, "I no longer want to have anything to do with you because I don't believe you're Jesus". That's their termination letter that I receive frequently from people and, unfortunately most of the time they are not honest with themselves. The very reason why they terminate their friendship with me, why they send me their termination letter, is because of reasons I've already exposed to them during my conversations with them that they are unable to confront within themselves emotionally, that they're unable to accept emotionally.

And often, the very reason why they are terminating their friendship with me is the very reason that I've already explained to them over the years that I've known them - as to why they have a problem.

**Mary:** So, could you give us an example of that?

Yes, I could probably give you many examples of that: usually within a very short period of time of knowing a person they ask me, what is going on for their lives personally and usually I tell them what's going on in their life personally, because they ask me and they seem to display a willingness to know. Of course, most of the time they're not really wanting to know, they just want me to say good things; now, I'm willing to say good things if good things are there, but I'm also willing to say bad things if bad things are there and that's what they don't understand - but the average person doesn't do that. So, I tell them what's going on.

So, for example, one fellow came to me and said, "Oh look, I want to be your friend." And I said, "Well, it's impossible for me to be your friend because you're not real; you're faking your life constantly; every interaction that I have with you is just a fake interaction. You don't, you're not real with any emotion; you don't have any emotions that are real that I can feel inside of you."

And then I gave an example, "See, right at the moment," I said, "now that I've said that to you, you are in a rage with me and you're not even acknowledging that." Anyway that man drove off and then he was about, he said, later, he was about 15 k's away from me, and he got into this huge rage with me, and he wanted to kill me and he spent 2 or 3 hours driving home - wanting to kill me. He didn't see me for another 5 months as a result of that one conversation. He came back to me and told me how angry he was with me. And I said, "But have you dealt with the fact that you're not being real?" And he hadn't. And I said, "Are you going to?" And to this day, he's now not coming to any sessions; he doesn't have anything to do with me. He wanted to be my friend, he said; he has nothing to do with me now. He's still angry with me and wants to kill me; he's told me on many occasions that he wants to kill me, actually.

Now, I find that whole experience ... and that's the sort of extreme example of a person who has demonstrated to me, right from the beginning, what their true nature is and I've told them right from the beginning what their true nature is; they haven't wanted to accept it, right from the beginning, and now they don't spend any time with me for what they believe is - that I'm not Jesus.

**Mary:** So, you're saying this person now in their rage, they're still not being real, they're just in a rage about you challenging them about not being real.

Exactly, they're just in a rage about me challenging them about the fact that they're not real and the fact is he wasn't real because if he wanted to be my friend, he wouldn't be in a rage with me for nearly 5 years, he wouldn't be in a rage with me. He would want to be my friend and therefore want to work through why he's in such a rage with me being a good friend to him. Telling him the truth about himself. He would want to work through that. So, right from the beginning, I knew what the problem was and this is frequently the case: that the people who send me their termination letters, I frequently know the exact reason why they're actually sending me the termination letter and it's not because I'm not Jesus, it's because they don't like me and they don't like what I said; and they don't like it and they don't like me because I told them the truth. And they don't want to hear the truth; that's the main reason why.

**Mary:** So, you're saying it's often at some point in your ... you can't really call it a friendship, because you're saying they don't like you, but ...

No, well, that's right. Right from the beginning they haven't really liked me.

**Mary:** At some point in your relationship with these people you've raised something that ultimately comes to head, and when that comes to a head, either with you or in some aspect of their personal life, and you reflect the truth about that, then they don't want to have anything to do with you. I can certainly vouch for that; I mean I observe that all the time. It happens with me now, too.

Well, you think of all the times you didn't want to have anything to do with me. It's pretty much the same, wasn't it?

**Mary:** Certainly, I was personally challenged, yes.

Every single time, you just wanted to walk away; you wanted to go away and then, to your credit, you walked away, went away, and go, "Yes, he's right. Bummer." And, you had this feeling in you of at least some degree of self-honesty; well the average person, I find, doesn't have that, they have no degree of self-honesty, they don't want to examine themselves honestly. And so they just want to blame somebody for what they do.

I feel to the people's credit who stay, the majority of them have a larger degree of self-honesty: they have a desire to see themselves as they truly are, even though it's painful at times and that's the exact same desire I have for myself, the desire to see myself as truthfully as we are, even though it's painful at times for me too. That's the reality any time we walk towards God: God's going to expose our true nature to ourselves and it's just whether we can emotionally be humble enough to deal with it, as to whether we will stick in this desire to have a relationship with God or not - that's the primary thing driving our desire.

So, for the average person, they don't have that desire: they don't have this strong desire to be at-one with God, they don't have this strong desire to have a personal reflection of truth, and so, they want people to tell them lies, and when you tell them the truth, they view that as a mortal sin, which they will remain angry about until they see that you were right. And until they see that it's not very loving to be angry; and until they see that, once they get over their anger; that actually they had a lot of fear about the answer. And until they actually feel their fear, and feel the grief that their fear covers, they probably are not going to shift on the issue.

12. What are the real reasons people cannot believe you're Jesus?

Well, I don't believe it has anything to do with me being Jesus, actually: I feel quite strongly that it's impossible for anybody to prove that I'm not Jesus, just as it's difficult for me to prove that I am, given the circumstances that we're currently in at the moment. However, I do feel the main reasons why people don't believe that I'm Jesus - or say they don't believe I'm Jesus - is because they are physically confronted, spiritually confronted, emotionally confronted, psychologically confronted, belief system confronted, and, what else can I include in that? They basically are confronted on every single level a person can be confronted: their family is confronted, their life is confronted, their worldview is confronted, everything is confronted. And, when everything is confronted, usually the psychological disturbance of having so many belief systems confronted, at the same time, is so great for the average person, that they have to look for a way out of the confrontation.

**Mary:** And just to clarify, these things are confronted by you, or by Divine Truth? Or what are they confronted by?

The truth confronts all of these things: the real truth, God's Truth, confronts these things; and I'm going to state God's Truth. So, naturally I'm going to be seen to be the person who's at the spearhead of the confrontation: in other words, they're going to blame me for the confrontation. So, it's amazing how many people blame me for their family getting angry with them; like, I'm not their family; I'm not angry with them; but their family is getting angry with them, just because they listen to me, and they blame me for it. Like, why do you blame me for it; it's your family that's getting angry with you, blame them. So, the main reason why that happens is because they're confronted on so many levels: spiritually, psychologically, emotionally, physically ... confronted, their world view is confronted, everything is confronted; and as a result of the confrontation, the confrontation is so great internally, there's so much internal - what I refer to in my discussions as stretching that needs to occur - but which they see as internal confusion, and internal pain, that they have to look for a scapegoat.

And because I've been the source of much of the information that's confronted them, the scapegoat automatically becomes myself: and that's the main reason why the average person who leaves the teachings of Divine Truth, leaves the teachings of Divine Truth; because they're confronted in some way; most of them are confronted before they even begin; they're confronted as soon as I open my words and say, "Look, I'm Jesus and I'm going to tell you something." That's when they're confronted, just me saying that I'm Jesus confronts them in so many ways and the confrontation begins there and grows from that point, generally.

**Mary:** So, what happens to people when they're confronted on all these different levels?

Well, they hit the point where they feel they cannot emotionally cope with the confrontation: and, in other words, they're not humble enough to actually absorb the internal conflict that occurs as a result of all of this information; and because of the lack of humility, and - in other words, they're inability to feel every emotion that they're feeling at the time, without blaming somebody else - they revert to blaming somebody else for their emotional condition. And, of course, usually at that point, that's when they get angry; so they get very angry, even rageful, at times, some of them even become, like, they want to kill you, so rageful because they're psychologically disturbed on so many levels that it's very, very difficult for them to maintain any sense, even of what would be normally classified as kind or considerate behaviour.

**Mary:** So what's the major emotion that comes up for people? Would you say ...

Well, the major emotion is fear, obviously: but that's not the emotion they display; the emotion they display most of the time is rage or anger, which is a covering over of the fear; it's because their addiction is not getting met; so, for the majority of people, they are in heavy addictions with the life that they have - they have addictions with their friends, with their family, with their food, with their clothes, with their shelter, with their ... there are so many addictions, it's on every level. And the addictions are used to cover over their fears; and then as I expose their addictions, there's nothing left to cover over fear; and when there's nothing left to cover over the fear, and you're not prepared to feel fear, you get angry; and when you get angry, you get very unpleasant - you become unkind and inconsiderate, you are willing to harm another person in their life, and in most people's cases they then want to have a personal vendetta with me.

They want to express this personal vendetta for the rest of their life, which is an indication of how much they are lacking development in love because the reality is you'd never want to do that if you love somebody.

**Mary:** It's also a lack of development in not just love, but logic, isn't it?

Of course, but a person generally is very illogical once their emotions are triggered: they become very illogical if they are unable to be humble. When we have an inability to be humble, we become very illogical in the way in which we handle emotion. So, we handle emotion by becoming angry, and vindictive, and even resentful, and even murderous at times as a result of our inability to be humble. And so it's the lack of humility that really drives a lot of this kind of behaviour.

So the main reason why people say to me that they can't listen to me anymore because I'm saying that I'm Jesus, is because they lack humility; that's the main problem that they have and in some ways I don't mind because if they lack humility with me they're certainly going to lack humility with God - who I'm getting trained by, and so they're not ever really going to have a condition of at-onement with God unless they're willing to engage humility as an active quality that they personally want to develop.

And given the world and the world's general fear of humiliation, and general fear of being looked down upon and a fear of condescension, and so forth, I would suggest that the average person doesn't want to become humble. They don't want to feel all of their real feelings that they actually feel, and acknowledge the truth of their real feelings and as a result of that they are in a lot of addiction to avoid these fears and then, of course, project a lot of rage as a result.

**Mary:** And so what happens in your relationship with these people when they project rage at you?

Well, the main reason why I have a person leave my life, withdraw from a person, the only reason why, in fact, I withdraw from people is because they're angry with me, or they're treating me badly in some way. And the reality is if I love myself, and I'm practicing the truth that I preach, I will love myself and if I love myself, I will, in fact, not put up with people treating me angrily, or bitterly, or blaming me for things that I have not created - I will not put up with people treating me in an unloving manner; I won't put up with them yelling at me; I won't give them my time, more of my time, when they've already shown in the past, that they're willing to treat me badly when I have given them my time for free. So, I will withdraw from them as a result - that's the only time I will withdraw from a person and if I can leave their presence, and go to my home, I will.

If I can't leave their presence, or I am in an environment that I've created, then they have to leave me: that's why I ask people who are angry and bitter in any of our seminars, to leave because they're in my environment and I don't deserve their rage, no matter what I am and what I've done, I still don't deserve their rage - just like I don't believe they deserve mine. So that's the primary reason why I leave people myself, that's why I make the decision personally to leave them: however, the majority of people are not in that place; the majority of people usually leave me before I leave them and I feel the reason for that is I'm a lot more tolerant of unloving behaviour than the average person, unfortunately.

**Mary:** But people leave you not because you've been angry with them, though.

No.

**Mary:** Like the only time you leave someone is if they're angry with you.

... they're being angry with me.

**Mary:** But they don't leave you because you're angry with them, they leave you for other reasons.

No, nobody's left me because I'm angry with them, because I haven't been angry with them; no, the reality is I just tell them the truth of the situation and then they become challenged and angry and bitter. Some people feel ashamed to say they leave, or whatever, but very few people, actually, let themselves feel, in humility, feel their emotions as a result and stay: which I feel is the best course of action to take; that's the course of action I take when I'm dealing with people, generally. So, that's the course of action I suggest to other people to take but it's not generally the course of action others engage.

**Mary:** So, basically, though, in answering this question, you've said that the true reasons that people leave you, or just ...

... or leave ... let's say not leave me, because it's not leaving me. I don't see it as leaving me; they decide they can't listen to Divine Truth anymore: in other words they're deciding that they can't listen to God's Truth anymore because of - and most of the time on the end of that sentence they say - because you're not Jesus, which doesn't make any logical sense to me and I know for a fact that the majority of them are not leaving for that reason - they're leaving because they've been emotionally, spiritually, belief system, worldview wise, psychologically disturbed through something that I've said.

**Mary:** So they've been very challenged by that. What about the influence of others?

Well, of course, one of the reasons why people have left has been the influence of others, whether the others are spirits or people on earth. At one point in time, we had people who knew us ringing other people, trying to convince them not to come to our seminars - they come to our seminars for free. And we've got people who are so committed against ourselves, that they are willing to ring up all the people they know who are still coming to seminars, and tell them not to come to seminars anymore because they don't go to seminars anymore: that's how much they want the approval of other people in order to make the choice or the decision to not listen to Divine Truth. I feel quite strongly that a lot of their decisions are made for these reasons.

And then there's also this heavy spirit influence. Of course, there are a large group of spirits, billions in fact, of spirits who do not want this Divine Truth, God's Truth, to be on earth. If God's Truth comes to earth, in a full way, most of these spirits will no longer be able to have their addictions met: most of these spirits will no longer be able to influence people in the manner they currently do; most of these people in the spirit world will not be able to have a detrimental effect on the planet as a result. Now most of those spirits are fully committed to having a detrimental effect on the planet and they're fully committed to being evil, and they're fully committed to trying to affect every single person on earth negatively, and so, of course, they're not going to be very happy when somebody comes along talking God's Truth.

And so many people come under their influence very rapidly when we're with them but when we're not with them, they're not influenced and then they go, "Yes, the influence around Jesus and Mary, or AJ and Mary, is very dark." Well, yes I agree, it's very dark. There are a lot of spirits around us trying to convince you that we're not who we're saying we are, and trying to convince you that what we're teaching is not Divine Truth and those people (spirits) follow us around constantly looking for a new prey, every single moment that we're speaking.

So, this is a fact of the life we're living, just as it was a fact of the life I lived in the first century: when I was in the first century, as the Bible does actually say, the spirits were often around me; the dark spirits were often around me, trying to convince other people that what I was speaking wasn't the truth, trying to convince other people that it was all a lie. This is a fact of life living here on earth and it won't change until people on earth stop being governed by fear, and start feeling their fear instead, being humble to their fear but that is another reason why a lot of people leave. A lot of people become so disturbed internally that they are so easily influenced by people on earth and by spirits to not listen anymore, that they don't listen anymore - to their own regret later, generally.

**Mary:** So basically you're saying that people meet you, they hear some Divine Truth ...

Usually they like it.

**Mary:** Usually they like it, but at some point there's a stretch, or there's a challenge of their world view, of their comfort zone, or their ...

And most of the time it's not their worldview: it's most of the time it's a challenge of their personal emotional condition; in other words, they want to believe they are in this condition and I'm telling them, "Sorry, but you're not in the condition you believe you are."

**Mary:** At that point, there's a lot of psychological distress or emotional distress, or fear, and then you mentioned logic sort of goes out the window...

Logic goes out the window.

**Mary:** And most people then revert to saying, "Well look you're not Jesus, and so I'm leaving."

Yes, which is an illogical reason for leaving because they can't prove it. And that is all an indication that they're skipping over the real major points, the major points of why they're leaving. Like, I had another friend, the only reason why he left was because his wife didn't like me anymore but he told me it was because I'm not Jesus; and this is what happens, like, he's afraid of his wife and I told him that right from the beginning, that he's afraid of women - I told him that that was his biggest emotion, and that if he didn't let go of it, he'd never be at-one with God, right at the beginning of our relationship - and what is the thing that terminated our relationship, not me not being Jesus, but rather, the exact thing I said, which was his fear of his wife and his wife's emotions. And this is common; this is common as you know.

And, I feel that if people are going to leave Divine Truth, and choose to not listen to God's Truth anymore, my suggestion to them is this: make sure you've at least listened to some of it before you make the decision; make sure you make a logical decision; make sure you know the reason why you're leaving; and make sure you're honest with yourself about the reason why you're leaving; because otherwise, you're just wasting your own time, in fact. It'd be far better for you to do those things.

**Mary:** We have another friend who recently told us that she didn't want to feel any emotions, and she didn't want to prevent us speaking truth, so she didn't want to see us anymore. To me that's honest.

And I feel that's much more honest; yes, I feel that's much more honest. It's sad in the sense that we still feel her to be our friend and it's sad in the sense that it's not helping her life in the future, but, it's honest. She's being honest about it, and that's great and you've got to respect people like that, that are honest about it. When people just say they're leaving because they don't believe I'm Jesus, that's not honest. There's no honesty there: they're not being honest with themselves, or with me; and I know they're not - and most of the time, the very reason why they're leaving I told them right at the beginning of the time that I knew them, what the problem was - so, I feel, for the average person, like, we're perfectly okay with people leaving, of course.

We feel that this is the beauty of free will: you have the choice, that you can make choices and decisions. If you leave God's Truth, it's not going to be a good life for you. That's a fact, because you're leaving the way the universe is governed; you're leaving God's Laws; you're choosing to act in disharmony with God's Laws, and when you choose to act in (dis)harmony with God's Universal Laws, there are consequences. It's like, stepping off of a building, the Law of Gravity is going to take its effect.

Like, you step off a building, and the Law of Gravity will take its effect. Now, if you step off a big enough building, the Law of Gravity is going to take its effect and it's not going to be very pleasant - even a small building, it's not going to be very pleasant - you're going to hit the ground with some pretty strong force, and potentially break a bone, and that's just the result of breaking the law.

**Mary:** Mind you, I feel, that you can leave, like, what we teach, and live a moral life, you can ...

Yes, and that would be in harmony with many laws. So you'd have a good life.

**Mary:** It doesn't mean that everything is going to go terribly for you. And in fact you ...

No, not at all.

**Mary:** If you listen to Divine Truth for 5 years, and then went, "Oh, that's it, but I'm just going to live a very moral life."

That would be fantastic.

**Mary:** And before then you didn't have one at all, you're in a better condition.

Heaps better.

**Mary:** So, I don't feel like it's all hell and damnation if you leave Divine Truth.

No. It's just that you're better off learning about God's Laws, even if you can't accept them, because if you know what they are, you can decide to live in harmony with them or not, as a decision. If you don't learn about God's Laws, then oftentimes you're acting in ignorance and the consequences of ignorance are just the same to the consequences of wilful disobedience. So, in other words, if I don't know there's a Law of Gravity, and I still step off the roof, not knowing there's a Law of Gravity, the Law of Gravity is still going to work.

So whether I'm ignorant of the law or not, it's still going to have its consequence. Of course, the consequences are slightly different in terms of emotionally because if I did it wilfully, then I'd have additional conscience matters to work through; so it's from a soul perspective that there is a difference but, there is a similar consequence to the same action, whether it was wilful or not - and this is what people need to understand.

It's like, you're far better off knowing about God's Laws, and not doing it, than you are not knowing.

**Mary:** Knowing about God's Laws and not following them, you mean, than you are of not knowing.

... of not knowing. Yes. There's no such thing as blissful ignorance - that's the truth. And blissful ignorance creates a lot of pain; it's not blissful at all. It's far better to not be ignorant, and still decide - at least you know why you got into trouble - but, even better than that, would be to know the truth and decide to live in harmony with it - that would be even better; that's what's going to result in the most beautiful life, and the most loving life, and the most pleasurable life.

**Mary:** Okay, thank you.

13. What do you do about the reasons why most people reject you?

Well, there's nothing I can do, from God's perspective: if I honour all of God's Laws, and particularly the Law of Free Will, which is a very, very important law that God has created, and a gift that God's given to each of us individually, then there is nothing I can do about somebody not listening anymore; there's nothing I want to do about somebody not listening to me anymore; in fact, I fully support their desire and right to not listen to me anymore; just as I fully support my desire and right to not listen to anybody else anymore, if that's what I choose. So, there's nothing I can actually do, or want to do; I don't want to force them; I don't want to impel them; I don't want to convince them; I don't want to motivate them; I don't want to give them a motivational speech; I just want to let them make their own choice - if their own choice is to not listen, then don't listen anymore - that's fine; I'm okay with that. You can even be my friend and not listen anymore - that's the reality - I've got many friends who don't listen to Divine Truth, and still they're my friends, and I talk to them about other matters.

Now, in terms of trying to assist them to get over whatever is the emotional confrontation that they feel as the real reason why they don't want to listen to me anymore, well, there are already over a thousand hours of material on YouTube which would already be helping them do that. The majority of these people have also had some of their personal questions answered by me and so, really I've done all I can already to help them through the confrontation they're experiencing as to the reason why they don't want to listen anymore; and for the majority of people, it just means that they haven't been humble enough to listen to that advice, or take into account those particular things; in fact, for the majority of people, they listen for a while, they haven't listened to the whole thousand hours, they've listened for a while, until something confronts them, and at the point that something confronts them, that's the point when they want to walk away and my suggestion to people is you're not going to grow that way. The only way you grow, is by being stretched, and so, you can't expect to grow by only listening to the things that you agree with - you're never going to grow that way.

**Mary:** So, at the point where we hit something that is very challenging, instead of immediately seeking internal justifications to not listen, there's the choice to look at what's being challenged.

Yes, at that point we have a choice and most people make the choice to not listen anymore at that point; and the reason why they make that choice is because they're challenged and they don't want to be humble to what the challenge is; they don't want to feel it emotionally and so, rather than feeling it emotionally, they wish to walk away from what they believe is the trigger of the confrontation emotionally that's occurring within them. So, at that point they make a choice to leave rather than deal; now, this is the same kind of choice the average person makes when they go to see a psychologist; they go to a psychologist and while the psychologist is telling them things they want to hear, then they stay engaged, but as soon as the psychologist tells them something that they don't want to hear, they want to run away and they go away, usually for good.

That is the choice that they make and unfortunately, that proves that they really didn't want to change in the first place, not enough to confront the emotional reasons why they don't want to change. If we're willing to confront the emotional reasons why we don't want to change, we would go through the emotion that the confrontation has caused and come out the other end of it but most people don't come out the other end of it; they make the choice to avoid the emotional confrontation so they leave the source of the confrontation.

Now, in my case, because I'm often viewed as the source of the confrontation, because I'm stating something that they don't want to accept, they leave; and I'm okay with that, like I said; it's fine - that's their choice; they have a choice to make and that's their choice. My suggestion to people is this: they don't need a reason to stop listening to me; the way God's made their Free Will is that they're allowed to choose to not listen to me without having a reason at all.

You don't have to come along to the sessions; what I notice a lot of people doing is they almost feel guilt when they don't come to a session, or they feel guilt when they don't come to a seminar that's in their region. They feel sort of ... it's almost like this macabre pull towards going, when they don't really want to go because they know they're going to get confronted when they go and they don't really want to go, but they go anyway. And then of course they get confronted and then they feel they've got to make some kind of justification for why they don't want to go anymore and so what they do then is they start inventing reasons to not go and most of the inventions are all around things that I've already told them are true.

So, for example, one invention that they often have is, "You make mistakes." "Yes, I've told you that. That's correct, I do make mistakes but I told you that from the beginning. So, why would you not want to listen anymore, just because I make mistakes? That doesn't make any sense when I told you from the beginning that I do make mistakes. You obviously either didn't believe me in the beginning, or now you're just using that as an excuse to not listen now."

Or they might say to me, things like, "Oh I don't believe you're Jesus anymore." Well, you can't prove that so that makes no sense to me at all. You can't prove that I'm not Jesus so, that doesn't make any sense that that's a good reason to stop listening now; you were listening before, why aren't you listening now? There must be a different reason and the reality is you don't need a reason to stop listening; you're allowed to stop listening at any time - it's all free, it's not like you've committed to some hundreds of hours of teaching, it's not like you've entered a university degree that you believe that you've paid for and now you've got to finish it, even though you don't want to finish it - you can leave at any time - no one is going to be bothered by that, I'm still going to love you. You can leave at any point you want. Then they say to me things like, "But you don't get things. You're not all-knowing." "But I've told you that I'm not all-knowing. I've told you that Jesus is not all-knowing. So how is that now a reason?"

So forget using all these so-called excuses; my suggestion to you is this: if you don't want to come along to the session, don't come along. You don't have to give anybody a reason; you don't have to come up with fanciful reasons; you don't have to come up with illogical reasons. Stop trying to convince yourself that you have a logical reason, just say to yourself, "I don't want to go." And don't come and it doesn't matter what the reason is that you don't want to go - that's what I feel - that's why we make the sessions for free: people have the free will then to make a choice at any moment; they can get up and leave at any moment; they don't have to come back.

**Mary:** And certainly we don't go looking for them.

We don't go looking for them.

**Mary:** Nor do we reject them.

We don't advertise for them. We don't market for them.

**Mary:** No, no I mean we don't go looking for people who just stop coming.

Of course, we don't go knock on their door, like the other religions, like religions do, like I've had done to me, knocking on my door, saying, "Why aren't you coming back?" We don't do that; we leave people to make their own choices and decisions; they're allowed to do that, of course, they're allowed to do that. That's their God given gift.

**Mary:** And it's always mystified me, that when people decide that they don't agree with Divine Truth, then they feel that they should, or that it's good, or that they want to abuse us, when we haven't forced anything upon anyone.

No, nor have we abused anyone.

**Mary:** We've not abused them, and now they feel like they can't let it go. Like, for me, if I want to let something go, I stop going and I move on to the next thing. The fact that they can't let it go, though, indicates something, doesn't it?

Of course, yes; you see what happens with Truth, God's Truth when it hits our soul, after a while, it starts resonating with our soul, and we just can't give it up no matter what we want to do. We might want to give it up, but we just can't and for a lot of people they get angry about that; they get angry about the fact that they can't give it up. So, instead of just having a good bash on a punching bag or something, and letting go of all that rage that they have about the fact that now God's Truths - they've heard God's Truth, they can't forget it anymore - instead of having a good rage about that, which is one thing they do need to have a good rage about, obviously, they would rather be in a rage with the people they heard it from, who have not harmed them, all we've ever done is just present Truth for free, to them - we've given them our time for free - how can you be complaining about that? Like, you didn't have to sit there and spend the time with us; you could've got up at any moment, so why are you angry about it?

You're only angry about it because there's something inside of you that resonates with it, that you don't want to face, and you don't want to feel that from an emotional perspective - so, in other words, you lack humility - that's the only reason why you're angry with us, because you lack humility. I'm not angry with you, because I don't have that same lack of humility; I'm more humble than that; I can see that every time I get upset inside of myself, it's got something inside of myself; not anybody else to blame. And that's the difference between ourselves, generally, and the people who listen to us, most of the people who listen to us get angry with us at some point, because they lack humility; they lack that ability to be able to see that any feeling they have is not the result of somebody else, but the result of something they're feeling inside of themselves.

Yes, also I would like to say on this subject that, when people withdraw from us, we still feel a lot of love for them actually; the majority of people who have listened to us and who have left, and even the majority of people who are angry with us, we still feel a lot of love and compassion for them. We see the reasons why they felt confronted at the time, and we also can understand, perhaps better than they do, at this point in time, as to why they feel so angry with us and we believe at some point in the future, they will possibly work through their rage and anger and actually get into a condition where they see that they were just afraid, and need to work through their fears and see that they just wanted some addictions met that we weren't meeting and maybe they can work through some of their addictions. So we actually have a lot of feelings of love towards all the people who have left hearing the Divine Truth and who have left coming along to seminars, don't come along to the seminars anymore or anything like that; and it's not like there are regular seminar attendees, or anything, it's just we notice when people have withdrawn from us.

And we don't feel angry with them for withdrawing from us, but if they treat us badly during that process, then of course, there's a lot more resistance in us towards having a relationship with them in the future. So, when I say resistance in us, what we are waiting for is their own repentance for their angry behaviour and what we find, for the majority of people, is that they are not repentant for their angry behaviour because they feel justified by being angry - they justify their behaviour; they are justifying their addictions. And so for the majority of people they're going to need a lot more humility to return to hearing God's Truth, or Divine Truth, then they have had to listen to it in the first place because after they've left, many people have become angry and resentful.

When they become angry and resentful, they're demonstrating their lack of love, and also their lack of concern for proper ethics and as a result of that, the next time we engage with them, the very first thing we are going to address with them is their lack of love and lack of ethics. And, of course, unless they've dealt with those particular emotions, they're going to find that confrontation much more confrontational than any previous confrontation they've had. So, I'd suggest to any person who's left listening to Divine Truth and is now considering listening to it again, that they look sincerely at the reasons why they left and it actually had nothing to do, most of the time, with what they told us the reasons were that they left, or what they believed were the reasons they left, but rather have a lot more to do with their inability to be humble to all of their own emotions - the inability to feel everything they feel without blaming other people. That's the primary reason why anybody leaves anything.

**Mary:** Leaves anything?

Yes. Like, we have two primary reasons why we leave anything: one is because we leave and we're not emotionally connected to it at all; the second reason is because we have huge emotions about it and we're angry. Now, my suggestion to people is the majority of times they have left Divine Truth, it's because they are angry and they are resentful - it's not because they just have no connection to it - it's because they're angry and resentful, which is not the average reason why people leave other things.

**Mary:** People leave other things because they don't have an emotional connection to it you mean?

Yes, most people leave other things because they don't have an emotional connection to it but the majority of people who leave Divine Truth, leave because they have an emotional connection to it but they're angry. But they're the two primary reasons why we leave anything: we don't have an emotional connection or we do, and we're angry - are the two reasons generally.

**Mary:** Yes, yes. No, I agree with that. Just, sometimes we leave abusive situations but we leave them because either we've worked through ...

We're angry or we don't have an emotional connection anymore, usually.

**Mary:** Exactly. Yes. No, I agree.

You know the people who leave an abusive situation because they don't have an emotional connection anymore, that's great, that means that they are no longer hooked into accepting the abuse from an emotional perspective - so that's fantastic. The people who leave an emotional abuse because they're angry, are still hooked in to the addiction that wasn't getting met though the abuse and, that means that they're probably going to attract more abuse in their future. It's not a good reason to leave anything because you're angry, because you're still going to attract the events you're angry about.

**Mary:** Yes, I agree.

It's very important to point out that we do not threaten people: we don't threaten people that they must come along to our seminars; we invite them to come along to our seminars; we don't try to chain up people when they're there; we don't pressure them to stay; we don't pressure them to donate we don't pressure them to support us; we don't pressure them to leave unless they're being abusive - there is no pressure at all that we've put on people - we don't threaten them if they do leave that if they do leave they can never come back. None of these things actually occur: so, the reality is that we are very, very conscious of the way in which people express their free will. Now, if they have a problem with me and my identity, they can leave at any time but I suggest to them that a problem with my identity isn't their real problem because they don't have a problem with other people not being Jesus.

So, the problem with my identity is greater than that and this is what they need to find: they need to find the real reason why they have the problem as the reason why they don't wish to listen anymore. Now, I'm not saying they have to, in the sense - because they can leave at any time; they have the right to leave for no reason at all - however, it's not going to be beneficial to their future to leave when you blame it on one thing when it's really another. You really want to find out why you left if you really want to progress with your future life even if you don't want to listen to God's Truth, you still want to find out why you leave and really understand the reason why you leave, rather than blaming it on some illogical reason such as he's not Jesus, which is a very illogical reason for leaving anything.

So that would be my suggestion to them. We, myself and yourself, as you know, we love them still; we love people and if they want to come back at any time we're happy for them to come back at any time. They can come back and leave and come back and leave - just as you've (Mary) done many times in my life - and there's no, like, animosity that's harboured against the person for doing such a thing. Just make sure you're doing it for the right reasons; that's the main thing.

There is little that I can do about a person's lack of logic, or lack of love, or lack of desire for truth, or lack of usage of their own will in harmony with love - there's little I can do to help them in those particular situations - there is little I can do to help them be humble; I can talk about humility; I can talk about the need for them to experience all of their own emotions, which includes experiencing all of their own emotional and psychological distress. But if a person doesn't want to do that, there is nothing that anybody can do, even God, can do for them.

So my suggestion to a person is this: if they are confronted by something that I'm saying, including when I'm saying that I'm Jesus, let themselves feel their emotional distress; be humble to what it is they're truly feeling. What is the real reason why they feel the way they feel - allow themselves to feel that - if you allow yourself to feel that, you're being humble; if you're humble you will grow in your relationship with God. You might not necessarily want to listen to Jesus for a while, but you still will be humble in your growth towards God, if you're humble to all of your own emotions; but if you blame something that is not to blame, in reality from God's perspective, then all you're doing is you're fooling yourself and therefore you are not going to progress towards God, no matter what you choose to do, and who you choose to listen to.

So, I feel, in probably conclusion to this session of questions, the issue of me being Jesus or not is certainly an issue that you're going to have to resolve at some point in your future, only because for your own areas of confusion, really but, using it as a reason to not listen to truth is a very stupid reason for not listening to truth - it's very foolish. Using it as a reason to not absorb love, to live in harmony with love, is a very silly reason to not be loving. My suggestion is if you're using the excuse of my own identity in order to not be loving or not be truthful in your own day-to-day life, or not live a moral life, then all you're doing is creating an excuse for a different thing that's real, for a different reality.

In other words, you really have other reasons: you don't want to be moral, or you don't want to live in harmony with truth, or you don't want to be loving, and you're not willing to face up to that and instead, you wish to blame me because I'm saying I'm Jesus, as a reason for not listening or not practicing what you hear. I suggest to people you don't have to practice what you hear from me; I don't expect you to practice what you hear from me; I don't expect you to believe that I'm Jesus; I don't expect you to understand my life; I don't expect you to question me; I don't expect you to listen to me; I don't expect you to come along to my seminars; and I don't expect you to donate to me; and I don't expect that you ever believe, in your entire future, that what I'm saying is true - I don't expect any of those things. If you think that my saying I'm Jesus means that I expect those things, then that's your emotional baggage, not mine.

And what I suggest to you is deal with that emotional baggage, rather than projecting it at myself; mind you, you're allowed to project it at me as well if you wish to, you're allowed to dump it all on me if that's what you desire, but it's not going to be very good for your future because you're not being honest with yourself. So, I don't know if we will have that many more questions about my own identity. I feel the reality is I've said all there probably is to say in these sessions about my identity, and I would like to now get on to subjects, perhaps about Mary's identity, because that hasn't been addressed at this point, so we'll probably go through some questions about Mary's identity, but we're more focused on wanting to now talk about frequently asked questions relating to truth and God and laws and principles and ethics and morality and all of these kind of truths, because we feel that these kind of truths are far more important for anybody to understand than issues about our personal identity.

But we'd like to thank you for listening to all of these answers that we've given to your questions, in fact, about identity, and hopefully they've been enlightening enough to confront some concepts and ideas that you have about my identity and Mary's identity. Thanks for your time.

