Kat Banyard we've seen allegations that
range from touching a knee to rape are
they all part of the same line of behavior?
- Well we know that violence
against women exists on a continuum from
sexual harassment as you say to more
serious and extreme violations what
underpins it all is an inequality of
power between women and men and various
other cultural trends linked to that so
the toxic cultural current which has
existed for you know hundreds of years
that teaches boys and men that they are
entitled to sexually access women's
bodies regardless of whether the feeling
is mutual
now all of these discussions about
sexual harassment and sexism in
Parliament in wider society this is not
somehow incidental to politics this is
not an add-on this is a very stuff of
politics this is about who holds power
in society and in this case it's about
men's power in a society which is still
deeply sexist - Dame Ann Leslie youmust have seen some appalling behaviour?
I mean this is this is patty cake here
it's going on now it's ridiculous I mean
we were when I was young very long time
ago every man in my office assumed that
I was young and pretty which I was,
unbelievable but I was that I'm welcome
his stupid jokes, you know touching me often things and of course I didn't
and after a while I got I got so angry I
was terrible smoker in those days then I
actually stubbed out a fag on his arm
The the worst one was when I was
very young I was the first time I did
any questions which is live and I'm
there sitting next to one of the panelists
this man called Sir Nicholas
Fairbairn, the Solicitor General in
Scotland and I suddenly realised that he
had his hand up my crotch and there is a
question the question was something to
do with I don't know what it was
now I was so furious but also scared
because you know if I said what I would
say to him you know sort of two or three
years later if you do that again I will
tell Jonathan Dimbleby who is it that I
can't answer any questions until Sir
Nicholas takes his hand out of my crotch
I didn't say it but I always wished I
had done however what I did like about
what's going on now is feminists have
been trying all the time to say oh my
goodness women women must be empowered
they must be strong they will be strong
women and they seem to spend their time
now saying that women have traumatised
because some silly old drunk in
Parliament put his hand on her knee or
anything like that you can't have it
both ways you can't say women are strong
and empowered and then say well I mean I
should say Nicholas Fairbairn is dead so
isn't here to defend himself in your
allegation but what do you make of what
she is saying, would you feel that
that belittles in any way what's going
on
well I think it shows just how much
courage that the women and girls
reporting sexual harassment have when
you know on countless discussions on
national TV and in the media this issue
is still trivialised and dismissed when
we know actually that sexual harassment
is a routine everyday experience for
very many women and girls
Joanna Williams you have a different perspective 
- Yeah I mean I'd like to
take issue first of all with the idea
that these women are brave I mean to
have lunch with someone in a very posh
restaurant and discuss the state of
politics is not in any way the
equivalent of working down a coal mine
or even working as a single mum as a
cleaner you know these are and when
these women come out and tell their
stories about somebody may or may not
have touched their knee 15 years ago
they receive a round of applause
You're not very sympathetic?
I'm not sympathetic I actually think it's really offensive
to women who have been raped that we
discuss knee touching in the same breath
as rape I think that
it's hugely offensive
That's what start this isn't it is it all part of the same line of behavior?
well we know that violence
against women exists on a continuum and
it's underpinned by the same sexist
attitudes and inequalities of power in
our society and we have to address at
all it's not one or the other 
- You see I would take issue with that I really don't
think that these things are on a
continuum and I think the suggestion
that they are actually demeans women and
belittles women women do know the
difference between being raped 
- I mean most of my career has actually been
foreign corresponding so I know they can
bad condition a horrible condition of
most of the women in the countries that
I was working in and if I said to them
you know now in England if any man does
this to you you should scream and say
break coming up I wouldn't insult
- I mean people don't scream and say
rape they say to stop treating me like
object or not not in the face Wars for
example if you you know the number of
wars I've done and I'm sure you have too
women do not say oh stop it he's he's
trying to 
- Why don't you aspire to live
in a society
where people just treat each other with respect?
I'm not excusing it...
at all but I just say get you know
proportion we must have a sense of sort
It's really possible to criticize these
things from and and I think Ann's example
of stepping out a cigarette on someone
is is wonderful and I think it's
possible to deal with these things also
- Most people aren't that brave are they?
UK feminists are in the National
Education Union are releasing report which
surveys students and teachers up and
down the country about sexism in schools
and what it finds is that sexual
harassment is rife in schools and not
only that but young girls are learning
that society just turns a blind eye and
in fact brushes it off as has happened
in this conversation now what that means
it goes unaddressed and it just is
allowed to perpetuate we have to bring
about change and that means at every
level it means we have to continue the
conversation speaking out against sexual
harassment but we need to act on every
level and government Ofsted teacher
training institutions and individual
schools so that we can make change for a
new generation where girls are not
subject to routine secular holidays is
that sexual harassment is being defined
so broadly there is a statistic released
our last week that showed that 28% of 18
to 24 year olds think that winking is a
form of sexual harassment now to me
that's utterly tragic what we're
teaching young girl - Can you see no circumstance under which winking
- No you know you can
ignore winking or you can be flattered
and you can actually enjoy being wink
that I do not see any circumstance under
which winking is sexual harassment
it demeans and trivializes harrassment
A leery teacher winking at a fifteen-year-old girl?
Winking is is subjective it's how you choose to
interpret it I think what's what's a
problem is that we teach young girls to
see themselves as victims and that's tragic 
- Apart from anything else
about women what is worrying me now is
young men because young men in this
country white men boys they're not doing
very well in schools
the women are beating them they're not
doing very well in jobs ditto and you're
getting and you're constantly telling
young men that you know you are scum
because you are so sexist and horrible
and everything and you know they aren't
quite delicate creatures men and I think
the net result is that they turn away
into themselves and you know they will
say well you don't want anything to do
with me do you and they will use
violence because one of the things that
really is difficult for young men is to
read messages properly and I think it's
going to be very dangerous because young
men the biggest problem we have now in
schools and in every everything else
- I think despite some
minimisation women and girls will
continue to speak out against sexual
harassment and despite the nay says they
will change as well
I'm sorry we're
outside but thank you all very much
indeed for coming
Thank you
