hey guys Kriben Govender from the gut
health gurus podcast I'm a food
scientist my background my my sidekick
James Shadrach is unfortunately busy
today on another appointment he's
double-booked himself so I'm flying solo
and kind of winging it with my audio and
video but I have a an absolutely amazing
guest for you today his name is Sandor
Katz I am pretty sure if you're in the
gut health in fermentation world you
would have come across Sandor his work
his books his inspiration because I
would say he's being one of the guys
that's been flying the fermentation flag
for quite some time
say Sandor firstly welcome to the show
thank you so much for having me out it's
my pleasure to be with you and or what I
typically like to set the scene for my
audience is to ask the question really
and to get it from the horse's mouth for
one of a better word who is Sandor Katz
well I think what brings me here is that
I am a fermentation revivalist and I got
interested in / obsessed with
fermentation about 25 years ago 26 years
ago now and went went down the rabbit
hole and learned about fermenting lots
of different things started you know
noticing how good fermented foods made
me feel shared the products of
fermentation that I was making with
people in my life ended up getting
invited to teach workshops in
fermentation that led me to writing a
book about fermentation and I've been
full time I'd say for the last 16 years
as a fermentation educator you know
traveling you know all around I mean all
around the US and North America and you
know increasingly other parts of the
world
just sharing with people easy techniques
for fermenting in home kitchens
restaurant kitchens and of course
learning about fermentation because
fermentation is practiced in you know
infinite infinitely varied permutations
in culinary traditions in every part of
the world so you know always learning
more about fermentation always
experimenting in my home kitchen meeting
lots of other people who are interested
in in this phenomenon and just always
you know curious to broaden the context
for thinking about it and you know
learning new different kinds of ferments
so that's not necessarily the totality
of Who I am but I think that you know
that that gives us enough to work with
absolutely that's that's a wonderfully
intro and what I'd like to do is just
let's jump in a time machine and take a
step back I think you mentioned 14 years
ago that first moment when you I guess
but was there a particular health
concern or or something that led you to
discover fermented foods well I mean
like most people I grew up with some
fermented foods so you know it's not
that they so you know that they suddenly
became part of my life where they hadn't
been part of my life before I mean I I
guess I would say that there are you
know kind of three main you know sort of
periods of my deepening interest in
fermentation so you know as a kid I
wasn't thinking about fermentation at
all but you know my grandparents who
were in my life were immigrants from
Eastern Europe and you know we always
ate pickles I mean my grandmother wasn't
making them we were buying them at a
corner delicatessen but you know that
was just part of the like the flavor
palate that I grew up with and I loved
pickles pickles were one of my favorite
foods so you know something predisposed
me
- you know really really enjoying this
particular flavor of fermentation which
I think I think sour flavors are very
accessible to kids and as a kid like I
love loved love the sour fermented
pickles that we would eat when I was in
my mid-20s which would be in like late
80s I spent a couple of years
experimenting with a macrobiotic diet
and I mean not really for any particular
reason like I was just you know in a
phase of life where I was you know
interested in trying different things
and one of the things that macrobiotics
really emphasizes is the digestive
benefit of pickles and other live
ferments ferments that are not cooked
after their fermentation and during this
period I started noticing that these
pickles that I had loved my entire life
that I had been eating my entire life
that when I would eat them and even even
like looking at them thinking about them
right now talking about them like I
could feel my little salivary glands
under my tongue squirting out saliva and
in a very tangible way I started
associating these foods with getting my
digestive juices flowing but I still
really wasn't making any ferments myself
I cup - there were you know sort of lots
of high quality options easily available
but in 1993 I moved from New York City
which was my hometown to rural Tennessee
where I still live and one of the things
I got involved with in this change of
life moving to a rural area was keeping
a garden and this was nothing I had ever
done before
and you know I was such a naive city kid
that I had never really thought about
the idea that in a garden all of the
cabbages would be ready and around the
same time all of the radishes would be
ready at around the same time so when I
was faced for the first time with this
reality of food production and you know
Agricole
troll cycles I decided I should learn
how to make sauerkraut I you know we had
a bunch of cabbage I knew that I loved
sauerkraut I knew there couldn't be that
hard to make I knew that it was
considered a you know a practical way of
preserving cabbage and other vegetables
so you know I looked in the joy of
cooking which is your sort of most you
know basic kitchen reference cookbook in
the US and I learned how to make
sauerkraut from the joy of cooking and
you know that's that first batch of
sauerkraut was it was just so delicious
and made me feel so good
and I just couldn't believe how
straightforward the process was like
literally you you chopped cabbage you
salt the cabbage lightly to taste add
caraway seeds or whatever other
seasoning you like now I would say any
other vegetables that you like you know
you get the veggies juicy by squeezing
them while they're salted and once
they're juicy you just pack them into a
jar or a crock or you know whatever your
vessel is and leave them for a few days
a few weeks a few months the flavor will
it will intensify but you know once I
just saw how easy straightforward it was
how delicious it was I just got kind of
got hooked and started like learning how
to ferment other things how to do other
kinds of fermented vegetables like
kimchi like the sour pickles that I grew
up eating I started playing around with
sourdough baking like a leavening with a
like a natural starter from the
organisms that you know are found on
grains I started playing around with
country wines like they you know very
simple you know elderberry or blueberry
or different kinds of fruit wines I
learned how to make me so I learned how
to make tempeh and you know I just
started you know exploring the the world
of fermentation and I found it to be you
know fascinating as well as delicious
and very satisfying and and then that
first time when I got invited to teach a
workshop so I had sort of fallen into
this interest
without any particular fear about it but
the first time I tried to teach people
how to make sauerkraut is when I
encountered you know the fear you know
all of these people who've been told all
of their lives how dangerous bacteria
are you know when confronted with the
idea of cultivating bacteria on
vegetables in a jar just panicked and
and you know the big question on
people's minds was you know how can I be
sure I have good bacteria growing you
know on the cabbage in this jar and not
you know some dangerous bacteria that
might make me sick that might kill
somebody so you know people you know
people can easily project all of the
anxiety they've ever had about bacteria
you know onto a jar of sauerkraut and
you know what's what's what's funny and
amusing about that is that like there
really are hardly any foods that are
safe the sauerkraut I mean the the
statistics are are stark you know
there's there's no case history of
illness or food poisoning from any kind
of fermented vegetables so you know the
reason you know that your jar of
sauerkraut isn't going to make you or
someone else sick is that it never makes
anybody sick you know there's just no
case history of illness from it even if
you were to you know take vegetables
that had been exposed to some sort of
incidental contamination in the field or
in or in handling the reality is that
the indigenous bacteria of the cabbage
would easily dominate over any
introduced contaminants and as they
begin to acidify the the cabbage they
would knock out the contaminants they
would no longer be found and you know
one of the very sort of elegant facts
about you know fermentation and other
means of acidifying food is that you
know acidifying food preserves food so
safely because you know the organisms we
hear the names of the nor the organisms
that have the potential to make us sick
can't survive in a sufficiently acidic
environment so once once you reach a
certain level of acidity the generally
agreed upon pH would be a
four-point-six you know for for most
government regulators but once you reach
that level of a city there there's just
no even theoretical danger to it so so
you know like most fermentation
processes you you know the sauerkraut
really is a strategy for food safety as
much as anything else but you know once
I started you know facing these issues
and seeing you know how scary it was for
people this you know method of producing
food that we all eat every day but that
has just largely disappeared from our
immediate experience I don't know I got
very drawn to the idea of just
demystifying this process for people and
helping people you know understand how
they can do it
you know safely effectively creatively
you know in in-home kitchens and and
there's been you know there there's just
been a huge amount of interest I mean
you know fermented foods and beverages
have really enjoyed enduring popularity
around the world it's not like you know
bread and cheese and wine and beer and
sauerkraut are just sort of suddenly out
of nowhere becoming popular but you know
certainly there is you know heightened
awareness and interest in the phenomenon
of fermentation I think because of
awareness of the microbiome and people
recognizing for the first time ever like
how important bacteria are to our you
know overall health and well-being and
that you know eating bacteria rich foods
are a great way of restoring
biodiversity in the god yeah totally so
if we could just summarize that a
beautiful eloquent monologue and so
free-flowing I didn't want to interrupt
the flow which is they beautifully put
together but it sounds like your your
maybe your your your new roots back in
is it hungry where you originally from
well it's funny my name my name's Sandor
Sandor is a Hungarian name but
my mother's parents who I grew up with
were from Bella what's know Belarus and
my father my father's family that came
over a generation earlier that was from
Lithuania right so east Eastern European
Jewish roots okay so the the Eastern
European I guess the culture does have a
lot of fermented foods in there so it
sounds like from a very early age you've
had exposure to I guess his beautiful
sour tastes and and I can think back
when I was a kid as well and I've got my
own kids as well and they love that you
know they sell lowey's so it's all waste
you make me built-in to us I'm just a
purely anecdotal but it's built into us
to to have a preference for these sour
type tasting foods well I mean I would
agree but I would say that like it's
important to expose kids early to the
sour flavors of pimples and know like
you know if a kid is exposing like a
teething age to that they will love it
forever but you know if a kid's first
introduction to it is when they're nine
years old they're generally not going to
embrace it in a enthusiastic way at that
point in their life yeah I think
supermarkets and enough food supply is
so laden with with sweet with sweet type
flavors so potentially if the kids
exposed to a lot of sweet tasting things
maybe sweet will trump sour so I'm with
you on that one getting getting these
sour and fermented foods in as early as
feasible
is probably a good strategy to get
children
and of course you know certain fermented
foods and beverages have you know very
strong flavors I mean I would say many
of the strongest flavored foods that
there are our products of fermentation
you know I'm thinking of you know some
certain really ripe strong cheese's or
like in the Chinese context some of the
fermented tofu that I have encountered
the Japanese context maybe not all but
you know there there are certain from it
with Everage --is that have very strong
flavors that are really acquired tastes
that you know if you're if you're just
not growing up you know in a context of
tasting things like that you might find
them very very off-putting yeah when you
encounter them later in life
oh that i'm the swedish fermented fish
on source strumming that's a great
example of imagine i've never actually
tried fermented fish before but i'm
thinking I'm thinking something really
strong with a means you know ammonia
comes to mind when when a protein kind
of ferments down so I'll actually love
to try it
I mean I'm planning to go to Europe sued
and say maybe if I come across a
Scandinavian restaurant I'll give it a
go and report back so well there's
there's lots there's lots of styles of
fermented fish probably some of which
you have tried I mean you know the fish
sauces that are found in Southeast Asian
cuisines and that's those fermentation
of fish that's a fermentation that that
breaks down the fish you know there are
also fermentations that really preserve
the fish I mean if you think about sushi
like and try to imagine what sushi was
before refrigeration like you would only
eat raw sushi out of a powerful
refrigerator yeah but the the tradition
of sushi is really or about using rice
as as the bed for for fermenting fish
and and the the acidity from the
fermentation of the right
is what preserves the fish and you know
there I'm elsewhere in Asia I have you
know encountered traditions of
fermenting rice with I'm sorry
fermenting fish with rice or sometimes
also meet with rice it doesn't always
have a strong flavor it depends a lot on
how long it's allowed to ferment you
know any ferment can be done in a in a
sort of milder less strong flavored
version or if you give it more time
there's more time for fermentation
byproducts to accumulate they could have
a stronger flavor mmm that's and that's
a fantastic point that you raise this
there's all these different types of
products that would probably we don't
realize that are fermented by something
like a fish sauce or I think in even
coffee or chocolate say these are all
types of fermented foods and then to
your point on not having refrigeration
so fermentation being another salting
process as a preservative means a very
natural healthy way of preserving foods
and then you talked about rice which is
you know I'm not sure whether you want
to go into it but to talk about Koji so
that's something really interesting to
me so do you think that was there some
element of the yeasts and molds in rice
they were helping to preserve the fish
well okay so one of the limitations in
the in preserving meat or fish through
fermentation is that the fermentation
byproducts that that preserves the acids
and the alcohol ferment from
carbohydrates and you know meat and fish
have lots of protein depending on the
type they can have lots of fat but what
they never have a lot of is
carbohydrates so when you ferment them
with rice or other grains or starchy
tubers you're providing a very rich
carbohydrate base and then the
carbohydrate
it's really ferment and the acids
produced from the fermentation of the
carbohydrates are able to effectively
preserve the the the meat so but you but
you need to introduce some kind of a
carbohydrate like in contemporary salami
making they just add a little bit of
sugar like a very you know like a couple
of percentages of sugar is is is totally
enough carbohydrates to you know get the
acidification that they need to happen
to happen quickly
sure speaking speaking of salami
salami it was an interesting one because
when I was in probably very early high
school one of my local guys in the
neighborhood was Hungarian and so he he
I used to just go and play and then he
first introduced me to Hungarian salami
and that was probably one of my earliest
experiences with a fermented a proper
fermented food and did did you like it
from from the get-go yeah I loved it and
so every time I would go ask his mom do
you have any of that that salami and and
you know what these guys were pretty
traditional so they were making it
themselves so it was like a family
recipe and it was amazing and it's still
one of my favorite foods and you know I
try and find it's like things like
salami or small groups have become so
processed these days so I try and find
something that's as natural and artisan
as possible so that I know it doesn't
have all these chemicals and
preservatives it's done using the the
old techniques but but I love it I love
it say Sandor what is your favorite
fermented food oh oh you're really gonna
have to make me think about that you
know it's so funny because I mean I do
get asked this question pretty regularly
and it's such an impossible question for
me because I mean I got interested in
fermentation because I love food like I
just like I love lots of different kinds
of foods and I mean certainly I'm very
devoted to
fermenting vegetables vehicles
sauerkraut kimchi love them all but I
mean do I love them more than I love
cheese that's hard I mean do I love them
more than I love beer I don't know so I
don't know I mean I don't have to decide
I'm so glad that the world is full of
you know such an incredible diversity of
different fermentation processes and you
know that's that's part of what I love
about fermentation is just how how
diverse it is how you know sort of
infinitely varied people have have made
it how you know you can take you can
take something that's sort of so
traditional and codified in a certain
part of the world and then you can take
the basic process and you can just
totally play with it you can like you
know take a process that's been applied
to you know soybeans in Japan for
thousands of years and then try it with
black-eyed peas try it with pistachios
try it with bacon and you know people
are just making miso out of the most
outrageous you know protein substrates
these dates and you know that are so far
from the original application of it and
I I just find that you know super super
exciting and inspirational and like
nobody's invented any new fermented
foods or beverages for hundreds arguably
thousands of years but but there's a lot
of kind of cross-pollination happening
right now and you know people taking
very traditional processes from one part
of the world and applying them to you
know very different kinds of ingredients
and and I found that exciting and I wish
I had an easy answer for my favorite
fermented food but you know I love so
many of them really yeah no that's
that's such a cool answer because I I
kind of approach fermented foods or my
JT's being pretty much from a health
perspective so I tend to favor certain
fermented foods from a scientific
perspective based on the types of
bacteria and then you've got someone
like yourself that comes from a totally
different space more
they're more artisan more kind of for
the love of food and a lot of flavors so
I love that answer that you know why
limit yourself to just woman when you
and I think even if you're thinking of
it primarily in terms of you know
probiotics and you know sort of
optimizing the probiotic benefit of
fermentation and people often pose the
question you know um you know what's the
best fermented food to eat for probiotic
benefit and you know I really I mean in
in my you know sort of synthesis of the
you know various bits of information
that I've you know sort of collected
regarding probiotics in general you know
I would say that the objective of
probiotic therapy is biodiversity it's
um you know encouraging restoring
rebuilding biodiversity and for that
simple reason there's no singular food
that is the be-all and end-all because
you know each different kind of
fermented food arguably each
manifestation from a different producer
in a different place will have you know
different microbial communities and sure
some of them will have you know sort of
more more you know higher bacterial
count greater biodiversity but eating
and drinking a diversity of live
fermented products you know definitely
gets more different kinds of organisms
you know into our bodies then you know
just picking one as you know the answer
to our problems and you know which you
know you you can get us it the flow of
bacteria or form eating the same food
every day but you just get a more varied
flow of bacteria if you mix it up a
little bit and you know have have some
yogurt have some sauerkraut have some
kimchi have some kombucha have some
ginger beer you know no no one of these
it
the ultimate source of probiotics and
you know the benefits I would say are
magnified by diversity mm-hmm I'm 100%
with you if you look at all the science
coming out on microbiome there's there
was a lot of debate on many topics but
when it comes to biodiversity in the gut
I think everybody is an agreement that
just like any ecological system the gas
is the same like a rainforest the more
the more different types of organisms
that are in there the typically it's
typically reflected in a healthiest
state in the body so I'm a hundred
percent with you and this is what I sort
of recommend to my members and my tribe
that's we introduced as many different
types of fermented foods as possible
whether it be kimchi kombucha kefir they
were all different so thank you for for
hollowing that so beautifully what's
what's your thoughts on kefir well I
love I love kefir I mean I love I love I
love the flavor of kefir I love how
kaffir makes me feel if there's also a
big responsibility you know you know
once you have some kefir grains you know
you've got to keep feeding them like
they do not they do not take very well
to long periods of neglect though I mean
my life at this point involves so much
traveling that I don't even try to
maintain kefir grains
mm-hm they require more you know kind of
steadiness and consistency than I am
able to to give them but I've seen some
very impressive kefir grains in my
travels oh my god this guy this guy in
California who I met
he had like a single you know blob of
kefir that was all connected and it took
two hands to hold it and so only time
I've ever seen anything like that but
but but I love kefir you know sadly
there's there's very little commercially
available true kefir
you know in in in the US it's virtually
impossible because I mean there's
products you could buy called kefir and
they basically are made from you know a
powdered starter culture that perhaps
was originally derived from kefir but
where they left out some of the
organisms that were viewed as
problematic and you know kefir among
though the you know 30-something
different organisms that are part of
kefir one of them is the fungus and
popularly known as Saccharomyces
cerevisiae so that that will transform
lactose into alcohol and so in parts of
the world where the legal threshold for
alcoholic beverages is is 0.5% like the
US it's just not practical to sell true
kefir unless you were just trying to
sell it as an alcoholic beverage whereas
in some parts of the world like in the
UK I'm not sure what the situation is in
Australia but where the where the
threshold is 1% alcohol people are
marketing true kefir so you know if
you're in a place where you can buy true
kefir it's a wonderful thing to make you
just have to find someone with grains
and because everybody who does it for
any length of time ends up with way more
brains than the know what to do with
yeah they're not that hard they're not
that hard to find you know you just have
to you know do some networking with
other local fermentation enthusiasts and
you probably can find some kefir grains
but I mean I love kefir it's incredibly
delicious I also love yogurt III make
yogurt you know every couple of months I
make a batch of yogurt and you know
yogurt doesn't need the kind of you know
daily attention that kefir does yeah uh
yeah I mean after me nourish me organics
community uh deeply deeply entrenched in
the benefits of kefir milk kefir
certainly has tons of research and good
solid research behind the the efficacy I
say probably yeah and the you hollered
approvingly that the yeast the yeast
absolutely vital you know something like
psycho Massey is who ever see
there's lots of other different types of
yeast we've done a full genomic study on
kefir grains as well and there is a host
of different types of organisms and the
yeasts are equally as important they all
work symbiotically together so hence and
I'll that's an excellent point on the
alcohol the alcohol threshold here is
similar to the US which is 0.5% so in
reality you're never gonna find a true
certainly in Australia you're not gonna
find a true keffiyeh or milk kefir
anytime soon
then even water kefir I think because
they're so strict on the alcohol
regulations if it's tested above 0.5%
neither a liquor license
and I can understand you know this mums
this children and I agree with you send
all the best thing to do is to make it
yourself and say you know exactly if
you've got the patience to kind of
maintain it it's like a child you know
you've got to keep feeding it like a
sourdough culture it's the same sort of
situation where it requires a lot of
attention but it's yeah ooh rewarding
and a little maybe maybe not maybe not
as much attention as having a child but
a small pet a small okay that's probably
more apt apt analogy sometimes I think
about kefir grains is you know as
tedious as my children's and and I like
how you highlight at the point and just
come back to it how it makes you feel so
you mentioned that you can feel the
difference when you have kiffy yeah yeah
yeah yeah I mean I I mean I think you
know these foods can be really you know
these foods are energizing you know the
the nutrients in these foods are you
know very highly bioavailable and you
know in general I find that these you
know live fermented foods make me feel
really good and you know I certainly
don't follow any you know diet like
where I only eat fermented foods or an
thing like that I don't think that
that's necessary or desirable or
appropriate but I definitely eat them
regularly you know I'm not saying a day
has never gone by where I where I
haven't eaten some but I you know pretty
much every day I'm eating fermented
foods my days are better if I'm eating
some fermented foods I think of a lot of
fermented foods as condiments so I think
of them as you know embellishments you
know something I'll put on a sandwich
you know something I'll eat with my eggs
you know something I'll mix in with my
you know rice and vegetables and and
meat but I'm eating for dinner so you
know I just always like to put a little
bit on the plate cool we're coming at
the time pretty soon I've just got a
couple of more questions if you wouldn't
mind sticking around just go for it go
for it they something that you know
someone like yourself that's such a guru
in this space so inspiring to others
there's a couple of things it's a bit
selfish of me to ask but what's the what
what do you think is the origin of
something like a keffiyeh or kombucha
because it's so conflicting when you
look at the law and the stories behind
it well I mean we don't know the origins
of any of these things you know we don't
know the origins of anything that we you
know I mean you know we have our old
joke you know which came first the
chicken or the egg yeah you know there's
like nobody knows so you know we have
rough ideas of the you know sort of
geographical origins of these foods so
kefir comes from the caucasus mountains
and anyone from the caucasus mountains
could tell you where kefir grains came
from which is that they were a gift for
the people from from Allah that Muhammad
brought to the people you know myself
I'm a little bit I'm a little bit more
of a skeptic and I don't necessarily
like you know accept the the origin
stories at face value so you know I'm
picturing that in a region where lots of
families had goats and and goats milk
and you know people tip
stored the goat's milk in you know some
sort of animal lining whether it's a
skin or a bladder or something like that
but you know something that they would
hang above the door and and people would
part of those sort of ritual of the
place was people agitating that
fermenting milk above the doorway and
some family started you know finding
these little blogs these little rubbery
blobs the kefir grains in their milk and
their milk had a delicious flavor and
texture and people started associating
that delicious flavor and texture with
those little globules that formed in the
milk and there were more and more of
them so they started sharing them with
their neighbors and their family and
there and you know eventually it became
um you know original specialty but I
mean where did the first yoghurt come
from like so you know we could say like
oh it was the eastern shores of the
Mediterranean it was a very hot day
because it involved thermophilic
bacteria but I mean these spontaneous
events happen you know it doesn't mean
that you can replicate them you know in
any environment like they happened in
some specific place under some specific
set of conditions you know people
figured out methods by which they could
replicate them and expand them but it
doesn't mean that like anybody can have
the the spontaneous experience of having
it occur in the first place and I mean
that's really what fermentation is is
it's it's like you know this sort of set
of techniques that people you know
figured out really in the absence of
scientific information for how to you
know sort of perpetuate the results of
some you know accidental thing that was
pleasing in in some way because it made
the food more stable more delicious it
produced alcohol and removed some you
know toxic or foul compound but you know
there's there's some there's people
recognize some benefit and there's
therefore you know sort of sought to
replicate
the the process about water kefir once
it thought some the original story of
that well so okay so water kefir as far
as I can tell there's no specific
relationship whatsoever to the milk
cultural that would culture that we call
kefir water kefir as best I can tell has
its origins in Mexico where it is known
as TB coasts and the story is that the
first crystalline structures of TB
coasts were found in the subcutaneous
layer of prickly pears now I I have
explored some prickly pears looking for
them I have never felt so you know maybe
they only developed under a very
specific condition maybe that story is
not true
maybe it's only some very particular
variety I mean it's hard it's hard it's
hard it's hard to say but water kefir
you know I believe comes from the
opposite side of the world as heavier ki
fears from the caucasus mountains water
kefir tea because I believe is from
Mexico and how about kombucha um
kombucha my general idea is it's from
you know somewhere in the north in the
north of China but but somewhere
somewhere in China sure yeah there's a
couple more questions so everybody knows
the I guess the fermented vegetables
they know keffiyeh kombucha what's some
really like interesting ones that maybe
people have never heard about that would
might they might like to explore yeah
well I mean you know of course what
you've heard about depends entirely on
where you come from so you know I mean I
would just really encourage people to
not assume that they know everything
about um sauerkraut and kimchi and
there's a vast amount of regional
variation and you can ferment any
vegetables for different lengths of time
cut up differently big pieces beverages
relishes you know there's a lot a lot
a lot of different possibilities within
the realm of fermenting vegetables so
don't you know please don't don't write
that off as just like beginner stuff but
you can ferment anything I mean what
like a particular you know interest of
mine is the fermentation of grains and
like you know we were just talking about
the fermentation of meat with grains you
can ferment everything else with grains
and people do ferment everything else
with grains and you know in contrast
with fermenting vegetables we're really
preservation is you know is your primary
objective because vegetables you know
are highly perishable and in temperate
climates you can only grow vegetables in
certain parts of the year and so that
preservation of vegetables has been you
know really made sustaining healthy life
possible through the winter in places
with with with with with long harsh
winters and it's been really really
important but when you ferment grains
it's never about preservation because
grains and they're mature state when
they're dry preserved perfectly just all
you keep them dry but that same some of
the same qualities that enable grains to
store for so long make them difficult
for us to digest and so you know the
fermentation of grains makes them much
much more digestible
it makes minerals in them more
accessible to us it gives something
that's got very plain flavor more
pronounced flavor and it makes something
that can be really dense into something
that's light and and and more pleasant
to eat but you know I love the South
Indian method of fermenting rice and
lentils dosa and Italy incredibly simple
processes where you you know you soak
the glue you soak the the rice you soak
the lentils then you put them together
in a grinder or a blender with a little
bit of the soaking water and
grind them into a paste and ferment that
in a very hot tropical place for
probably just about eight hours in a
warm temperate place maybe 24 hours in a
cool temperate place maybe 48 hours once
it's rising then doses or our crepes of
this and so delicious and then II
deleseur these steamed breads of this I
love this afro-brazilian similar for men
called acarajé where you take black-eyed
peas and you soak them overnight and
then you blend them into a batter and
then you do these fry breads of the
black-eyed peas which are incredibly
delicious I've been making a friend of
mine who is just diagnosed with celiac
disease I've been making her buckwheat
Brit where I take whole buckwheat raw
buckwheat and I soak it blend it into a
batter add a little bit of salt Rose it
for 24 hours then put into a well
greased loaf pan with lots of seeds
lining it and and and bake bread out of
that or you can make pancakes out of
that but I mean I just think we can make
grains so much more delicious so much
more easily digestible with really
simple fermentation techniques that are
really found you know all around the
world - like in you know culinary
traditions virtually everywhere that's
that's something that excites me that I
would you know encourage people to play
around absolutely and it's it's such a
good way to encourage more vegetable
consumption as well because we can make
it really interesting by fermenting it
in terms of flavors textures or get
analeptic qualities of the food so
anything they can get us away from over
consumption of meat into more plant
through diversity I'm a hundred percent
supportive of so that that's absolutely
brilliant and there's recipes that you
mentioned do you do you have them on a
blog somewhere or where people can
access them well sure I mean the easiest
place is my book wild fermentation all
those things mentioned or are are in my
book wild fermentation and
and you know they the the Internet is a
wonderful place to look for recipes to
like you know if you've you know hear
about something like you know dosas and
you know you don't have you don't have
the right book in front of you if you
just search on the internet you're gonna
find hundreds probably thousands of you
know food bloggers from you know the
aspera who are like sharing you know
their their family methods are doing it
told you then use the huge one as well a
huge database of recipes and and what we
will do is we will definitely link to
your book in the show notes so if people
want to a deep dive with Sandor and his
recipes absolutely genius in terms of
fermented foods bouillon so we'll link
to those in the show notes so just to
wrap everything up I know your time is
very precious and just a parting
question I like to ask my guests is if
there was one thing that someone could
do to improve their gut health what
would it be sandal well I mean I will
say fermented foods but I'll also say as
important somewhat argue more important
than the probiotics are the prebiotics
and just you know eating lots of high
fiber food a lot of like you know tubers
and leafy green vegetables and you know
like you can have all the probiotics in
the world and if you're not eating the
kinds of nutrients that can nourish them
along the entire length of the intestine
they're not going to flourish as well as
they can so you know that so just you
know eating you know the right kinds of
you know complex carbohydrates
polysaccharides the kinds of things that
you know really a length justice system
to to break down are the ones that are
gonna really like nourish all those
probiotics that we're eating so I'm a
hundred percent we do you know you can
put the good guys in there but you've
got to put the the food for the good
guys as well to help them to to flourish
and they got
sandor thank you so much for giving me
your time I think it's in the afternoon
for you it's in the morning for me I
highly appreciate it and looking for all
right well absolutely I'm looking
forward to your necks and benches and
I'll be following up following along
very closely and I'm sure the the
audience here will be following on your
journey as well so thank you so much
sandable great thank you take care bye
bye
see you later thanks indle that was
awesome
great send me a link when you post it
yeah absolutely I'll send you a link so
you can share to your your audience and
you know all the people following along
on your journey but really appreciate
your time sandal okay great
have a good day bye bye see you later
