What's up guys, Paul
from golfers authority,
and I have a really special
guest on today for episode 13,
lucky 13. Um, can't believe
we're already on 13. Uh,
this is just an idea that now it's
grown into a real show. So, uh,
this week I have Jim
McCarthy from cure putters.
I'll tell you the story during
the show about how I met you.
It was crazy and sign. Jim is one
of the smartest businessman I know.
And one of the nicest guys as
well. So without further ado, Jim,
welcome to the show. Thanks for having
me, Paul. So where are you at right now?
Like your office or something?
You're all sunny. Jacksonville, Florida,
right near PJ tour headquarters in, uh,
in a studio, uh, podcast studio
that my, uh, one of my buddies owns.
I've been doing a bunch of podcasts in
here during all the Cova stuff for the
different businesses I'm involved
in. It's been a good time.
That's a nice studio. I mean, he did
a nice job. He did a really nice job.
He's got a, we'd done a couple of
round tables. He's got five, uh,
five microphones that you could, you
know, they're all right here on this area.
So you can do a variety of
different things in here. It's it's,
it's pretty sweet.
That's really cool.
I'm like, I don't know.
Cause when I was trying to figure out
what to buy when I was like, I I'm okay.
I'm happy with what I bought. I
mean, I can still upgrade. Right.
But I can tell like what he has. I'm
like, Oh awesome. Nice stuff right there.
Like I know exactly what
that is. And I was like.
I have no clue, like how to
measure anything. I just,
it all looks really cool to me. So
that's kind of, kind of how I measure it.
Awesome. No, I think it looks
sick and it's like a micro,
big little microphone behind you too.
And like on the wall TV's and stuff.
Yeah. Some he's got some, uh, you know,
some of the sort of traditional, um,
freestanding ones. Yeah. I like that
one back there. That's cool that you,
that we use, you know,
when you don't want to have the big
thing right in front of your head or
whatever, we've done some
different TV stuff. Uh, it's a,
it's a first class spot,
man. I like coming over as
comfortable and fun in here.
First. It actually be well, and
that's not true in a second person.
Now that has been in a
studio. Well, actually, no,
you're the first I know someone else
has a podcast and they were in their
studio, so that's really cool. I like
that. So, all right. So let me think.
They all, I met Jim, this
is how crazy this world is.
So I went to the PGA show
this year, as you guys know.
And I didn't know Jim at all, I
knew cure putters was a who doesn't,
but I, uh,
a really good friend of mine invited
me to dinner on the last night though,
we were there both Damien
and I, and it was a small,
it was almost like one of those
scenes in a movie. I thought,
don't you think it was like, so pre
I mean, you're probably used to that,
but I wasn't. I was like,
this I'm up. I don't know.
It was a cool dinner. I mean, that's know,
nice little private room when we had about
a dozen people in there and everybody
just good spirits, good people.
And, uh, it was, it was a blast.
So it was a small table. I mean,
it probably was 10 or 12 people.
I don't even know how many people
are in that room, but it was like,
it wasn't like a big room, but it was
a really nice, fancy, fancy restaurant.
And Jim sat next to me and we're
talking and he's like, Oh, I go,
so what do you do? And he's
like, Oh, I own cure putters.
And I started laughing. I'm like,
yeah. Right. And he's like, no, really?
And I'm like, no shit. And then he goes,
uh I'm like, I know who you guys are.
I did the CX one. Right.
And you're like, really?
And so then I like took
my phone out and I'm like,
I must mostly like two years ago I
looked it up and freaking, I was like,
number two on it, Google.
And you're like, crap.
You're like, what the hell?
That was the end of the day.
And I show up for me and I was just
looking forward to the awesome dinner,
having some fun and you know, drive
home that night. Yeah. I had to,
I had to drive a, I don't
know where I was going.
Do you have any other
businesses you had to go
or something and they talked you into
staying, but it was cool. We totally,
I don't know. We bonded. I feel like.
That was fun. That was
great. Good to know.
No. Yeah. So it was crazy.
Cause like, I don't know.
That's what I try to tell people.
Like you go to the PGA show and it's
just different world. I don't know.
I try to just hang out with people
that are cool. And obviously I did.
So that's how I met Jay. So I mentioned
that night and then we've been,
we became friends and then I don't know,
we text and I email him and I was like,
I want to talk to you like probably a
lot a month ago. And I was like, Hey,
would you be willing to come on my
podcast? And he said, absolutely.
So that's how I got them
on the show guys magic.
But so I don't know if you know this.
So like what I normally do when
I talk to brands, I don't know,
but I know who they are, but I don't
know much about them. I always say, Hey,
what's your story? Cause
I want to know. Right.
Because I always feel like
if you know someone's story,
then you kinda know them as a
person or you on yours kind of cool.
Because some people are, could be like
arrogant and whatever. And you're like,
I want to talk to spinal Spoonamore. So
that's how it was. Wow. I was like him,
the name of the show. Right?
What's the story behind the brand.
So can you tell me, you told me a
little bit at dinner that night.
So can you tell me like the story
of cure and how that all came about?
Sure. So it started about GSE back in
2013, two guys,
not me, two guys, retired
architectural engineer and uh,
and a golf pro,
a PGA pro got together at their club and
they were heavy in the pudding.
Um, they're both very good pliers,
both on the plus side of the golfing
world, not like very good players.
Like a lot of people think they can shoot
80 or something and that's fantastic,
which nothing wrong with 80, but
these are very, very good players,
fairly competitive to, uh, in
their age brackets. But, um,
they basically put their minds together
and they'd been working on the moment of
inertia and putting
for some time. And, uh,
the Steve Davis, the retired
architect, uh, and Jeff Ryan,
the PGA pro. So they, they basically
spent a lot of time on the, putting green,
coming up with ideas of how to
make punting easier for people.
And Steve went home to
his drafting table. Uh,
he lives beautiful place down
on the ocean in Flagler beach.
And he just sat down at his
drawing table. Was she, you know,
he's obviously knows how to do from
design and stuff all over the world.
And instead of doing
buildings and hospitals,
that he was doing potters and
pretty soon he came up with a,
with a prototype. It was a
wooden prototype that, uh,
he made and then they took and had it,
they took it and had it
manufactured into more of a
actual putter, uh,
material using aircraft grade aluminum.
And they, they got to actual
prototype. I made a handful of them,
uh, which was fairly
expensive, uh, to do all that.
And they were testing and
they were telling their
story and they were trying to
get this thing off the ground. And, uh,
they had one of the guys that
there was involved with them,
another golf pro club pro another good
player who I knew who was actually one of
the pros that our club in Jacksonville.
And he approached me and said, Hey man,
we want to go T it up. Me and
a guy who was on one of them,
detours and then me and a buddy.
So we're going to get a four ball
going and go play well. So we did that.
And those guys had the effectively,
it wasn't even called a cure,
then had these potters and
we'd show up and, you know,
pegging the ground and right
out of the box, you know,
we'd see the putters on the first
hole. And we're like, Whoa. I mean,
I think it looks crazy.
What is that thing, I guess,
as you've have you seen
Paul that, you know,
that our potters are a little bigger than
normal and some are a lot bigger than
normal as it was very first
prototypes they had out there,
these guys were making everybody and I,
they just waxed us and they made it all
day long and we were making on him for a
while until the back nine. And then
we're kind of like, we were kind of like,
what is that? Right? I mean, these guys
are good potters anyway, but they were,
they were making everything and it was
still, I think it's still a record.
We play Polish any part
longer than the flag for par
better as a polling, then
you got gambling around that.
So these guys made like 15, I think
there's the number 15 poles. Yeah.
One day. And so, you know, right away,
I was like, what the hell is this?
And so a grant, the guy who
was working on the side,
sort of with Steve and Jeff started
telling me about, I said, man,
like for you to talk to these guys,
they're trying to get the business
off the ground and just do me a favor,
just sit down and, you know,
talk to them about the business and
try and help get off the ground.
What kind of advice can you give him?
Blah, blah, blah. And so, you know,
just kind of a favor there. I said,
sure, no problem. Not a set it up,
meet here at the club, whatever.
I'm happy to talk to him.
And they came up from a
Palm coast and we started
talking about it and uh, yeah.
Then they came up a second time.
Then he came a third time.
They brought me a Potter and then
I went out and a crazy, true story.
I went on my brother on the back of
the hall with a green behind the house,
on the course. And, uh, it was a front
pan. We went all the way to the back.
We drop three balls and, uh, you know,
just goofing off and very first spot
I hit, went in and we stepped it off.
It was 85 feet. And you know,
I don't ever remember making any five
foot put in my life, but, um, you know,
we kind of looked up at the
sky like, are you kidding me?
Like the first time I
ever used this thing,
the ball goes in from there.
We really started looking at the data
that they were compiling from all the
testing they were doing. I didn't know
what to tell him my, why was this time?
And so they were teaching
me, you know, their path and,
and where they came from,
why they did what they did,
why they're changing the geometry of
the Potter. Hasn't changed in 40 years,
basically for the most part.
And I started fooling around with it and
I started showing the better players.
I knew in the area. We've got a
lot of great players in there.
A lot of tour players, a lot of many tour
players. I started showing them. And,
uh, you know, the initial reaction
was odd because of the look and the
shape, the size.
But when we were showing guys the data
and when we brought them in the lab, um,
that we were using a test in, you
just couldn't argue with the science.
So ultimately long story short, we
put a deal together, uh, to where,
um, guy came on board as a CEO, racists
invested some money, raised some money.
Uh, and then we basically had raced
to get to the PGA show to launch it.
This is, this is the
end of 13, three months.
So by the time, by the
time we got our deal,
Don and I raised the money,
we had had 35 days to get to the show.
And so this time, I mean, it was Paul,
it was insane. We needed a name, we
needed a logo. We needed, you know,
a show plan, a booth, how
are we going to staff? It,
all marketing materials,
the different, you know,
golf bags and everything.
You would want a booth.
So obviously it starts with
the name and with the logo.
And there was one of the great things
about being in a time crunch is
it helps you make decisions very fast
and doesn't necessarily mean you're going
to get them all right. But
a lot of times in business,
people will really struggle
to make those decisions.
They chicken it around and kick
it around and kick it around.
And they never really make
enough progress to get anywhere.
So I enjoyed the fact that it was going
to be a race and I've been through
startups before of my
own and helping others.
And while the group as a whole and
not done really much of that at
all. So there was a lot of nervous
energy. We were able to, you know,
every single day, get up, put
our priorities down for the day,
crank through it, see what, you know,
what did we screw up from yesterday?
What still has to be done? What are
the biggest obstacles, uh, you know,
and just March. And, uh, we got to
the show and, you know, Dean Beamon,
former PGA tour commissioner
is one of our partners. And he,
he started with us back then as well.
And we went to the PGA show
and we won best new product.
Amazing.
It was, it was, I mean,
Donald Trump came into the booth and was
putting with him and bought a bunch of
putters at, for a couple
of his resorts and stuff.
So we got pictures with him and the booth
and stuff was kind of funny, ironic.
Now he's president obviously, but
it just, it kind of started there.
We were super active and then
each year it's, you know.
It grew like crazy. We
grew like crazy. Uh.
We were doing a couple thousand potters
a month, 3000 a month at one point.
And that, you know,
our goal was to be a top
five Potter company in the
U S and that put us right on
the cusp of banging
into that. And the, uh,
the landscape change a little
bit over the last five,
six years with Nike
using the equipment piece
of golf. Uh,
but the big four remained the same
title as the Calloway and paying and
tailor-made and have just massive market
share on the putter game. And it's,
it's a tough place to play. And that's,
that's tough. Those are some big boys.
Uh, any kind of club, I mean, yeah.
Yup. You really want to, they don't,
they want you in your sandbox.
They don't want you on the big
boy field. And, uh, you know,
it's tough and they, they they're,
they're very good brands and I played
golf my whole life and for the most part,
and I'm been very loyal to some of
those brands and I think they make
quality stuff. There's
no question about it,
but they are selling a story
of game improvement and
technology. And they're
not in certain areas,
especially pudding. It's not,
it's not in line with the amount
of improvement that they are
actually putting into their
equipment from a Potter standpoint.
I'm very comfortable talking about that
part, the rest of their stuff. You know,
I can't really, I don't
know that stuff that well,
but from a planning standpoint, until you,
you can only do so much until you change
the geometry or you everybody's used to
the four inch geometry, four and a half
inch geometry for a Potter. You know,
you think about it. Potters are
always been this this long, right?
For 40 some years,
the biggest change in pudding was the
ping answer back in the day when replaced
a lot of those old blade
style potters. And that was a,
that was an increase in
Moi of maybe, I don't know,
I think it's 18 or 20%. It was game
changing, right? I mean, game changing.
And you see how many putters
today out on tour, all the tours,
even your buddies that
look like the answer,
every manufacturer has got
something, everybody's got something,
it looks like an answer, right?
So what these guys effectively
figured out was until you make that
thing bigger, right. Change that geometry,
and then maneuver the weighting,
et cetera, center of gravity,
all the different characteristics
that go into making a putter.
You're not going to get that,
that large improvement that
everybody's looking for.
So they figured that out and that's
all, but in the Y amount of inertia,
which is effectively the
resistance to twisting and pudding,
and it's the single handling number,
one thing that can improve budding.
And that is because it helps
with basing on variation.
That's when you want to, when
the ball hits the putter,
the movement that the face
is going to have, right.
Depending upon where it hits,
most people aren't hitting perfectly
in the center every single time,
especially as your handicap
deteriorates in number, right?
So the average golfer, and America's,
what, what do they say shoots like 110,
105, something like that. And
they're in the 35 to 40 putt range,
and they're worried about buying
a $500 driver, right? I mean,
just think about a backwards that is.
Because you'll use a driver
maybe half time, right.
I use it the most 14 times.
[inaudible] one of the shorter centers
in the country and you're going to use it
on par three, but you know,
probably not. So it was 14 at most.
You're using your part of 35 to 40 times.
So you reduced the face annual variation,
you reduce your number of pots,
you reduce your number three putts,
uh, your proximity to the hole.
You are sort of that circle of love.
Three-part avoidance. You know,
you get nothing in close. So everything
becomes a tap in. It's a really,
really big deal. And the
Moi and our potters are,
are improving it on average by 50%.
So we've effectively made the hole twice
as big is really how you look at it.
What model was that? One was that the.
That was, that was the original. Uh,
we had an RX and two when
we first launched. And,
uh, since then we've had
that, we've expanded the RX
line to RX one, two, three,
four, five, and eight. We've been
at a six. And we came out, you know,
if we listen to a lot of the
players loud to her players,
we were blessed to have,
and we don't, we, you know,
we were in a tough spot because we're
out on the putting green and all these
different tour events, and we
don't pay the players. And, uh,
that's tough to compete with the big
boys where you don't have that brand name
and recognition as well as a
paycheck. That's a tough game to play,
but we were able to get a lot
of potters in play pretty quick.
And then we listened to those
guys that were playing them,
listen to their feedback. How
can we make these things better?
And then we came out with our CX
line, which was love a smaller,
little bit different, feel, a little
bit different sound, a still heavy,
heavy Moi, strong science,
not as much as the RX series.
And we did very well with that. Um,
you know, we had, we've had wins. Uh,
we've got 10 wins. Now at this point, uh,
we had a top five over the weekend
with an RX three, but, uh, you know,
Lexi Thompson, she won with our
biggest Potter. What the RX five,
multiple times,
Jerry Kelly won a ton
with our CX one in that CX
series. And he set some records out on
the champions tour, as a matter of fact,
number around, under par in a row I'm
around sixties in a row. I think, uh,
he won rookie of the year.
He won a bunch and then we had them up
scattered around on the PGA tour as well.
But again, continued listening to the
feedback cause it's still, you know,
still everybody's looking to cure
smaller company. Uh, not Titlest,
hasn't been around a hundred years.
It doesn't have all the Marquis
stars doesn't pay the people.
We went back to the drawing board
again and came up with a tour X line,
which is the most, is the most, um,
let's see, how would I
describe it? It's the,
it looks more like your
traditional tile, uh,
style of putters that you
seen or see out there today.
Little bit smaller than the
RX and CX little bit different
profiles and pretty
recognizable for the most part,
especially that tour X one and
two X three, they look, you know,
if you look at those, they look similar
to a lot of stuff that's out there.
And the two,
I think there's enough similarities
to plenty of subs out there as well.
Feel good. It's still
still loaded up with Moi.
So it's still better than the
other, other stuff that's out there.
Thanks to the science. And it's
kind of rounded out, you know,
very large line of stuff
that we've got now, you know,
a very wide range of models for
people to pick from based upon
their, what they like to look at first.
And how's it sound, how's it feel?
And I didn't even get into
the customization options
and features that we have
with all of them,
but it's remarkable to have the amount
of science and customization that we've
got. And.
Nothing makes me happier
when I go to a PGA event.
And I see my friends, like
on putting green, you know,
like their actual product,
like, it just makes me happy.
Cause it's like knowing that
they don't pay the players to,
to use them, you know, or try them
out. I think it's cool. Personally.
It's been a, it's been a big hurdle,
but it's also been something for
us that we have been shouting out,
you know, from the mountaintop.
Because if you think about it,
if you're a tour player and this is how
you make your living and you've got the
big guys all around the green, right?
All the big ones, everybody knows titles,
Calloway's had never been paying.
So they're all out there. Right?
And we're out there, they're out
there and you have the choice, Paul,
as a tour player, you can go
play whatever you want. Um,
some of these guys don't
own under contract,
but some of them have freedom with their
putter. They only have a 13 club deal,
actually a fair amount of, so they
can go play whatever they want.
And every week the guys are out there,
they're trying to get
them to try other stuff.
And if you try and put it in play,
you're going to get paid. Right. So,
and then you have bonuses to keep
it in play. How long you have it,
if you have it for the whole year,
and then you get extra money on top,
if you win and this and that.
And so if somebody uses our
Potter on tour and says no to
all that stuff, that's a
big statement for us, right?
Yeah. They were walking away
from a lot of like potential.
Big statement by the,
what we've been able to figure out
now having a 70 top tens and 10
wins on the, you know, on
all the different tours,
we've tracked all those stats and we
can show them how much money they're
actually making by using the Potter
because of the improvements. Right?
So it's not, it's not a Potter
contract, right. That we just,
we're going to pay you 50
grand or 200 grand or whatever.
But when you look at your earnings
and you see the difference,
you can see how much money
you're making B by playing that.
And it's a game changer.
Yeah. And that's a problem. Right? Cause
some people want the sure thing. Right.
So they don't want to get
paid. I want whatever path,
a million dollars a play a putter
for the year. Even though it might,
I might not ever be in the top
five. Right. Because I'm there,
but then it's like a gamble. Right.
So if someone's willing to players
willing to use something that actually may
improve their game, which might
actually make them be a top finisher,
like doesn't matter. Right. Because
they're going to get, it's like risk,
risk reward. Right. So, I mean,
that's why I get excited
seeing the brands. I like,
like being used on the green rags, I'm
like, Oh cool. I'll take a picture of it.
And I'll like text. Like I did
that with, uh, with lab, right.
Lab putters directed force.
Like I saw them there.
Somebody was using them
at the Phoenix open.
I just took a picture and I
texted it to Sam. I was like, Hey,
I'm gonna need your putter. You
know, I don't even know it was,
I knew exactly what it was like
they were talking, I don't know.
It wasn't a shotgun. It was, but it was
like, you know, some well known player,
but I still excited to see
the X I'm like, Oh neat. But.
No, nothing. We love more than turning
on the TV and seeing them play,
especially when their contention. And
we've seen them when it's, it's a,
it's super cool. And you know,
we've had guys that put it in play,
they go out there, you know, they've
basically led the field in potty,
in the first couple of rounds and
their first or second overall in the,
in the tournament. And they go
in the final round and they,
they go back to the game or that
they won five times with and finished
20th and it's, they lose it. It's
crazy. You know, because you know,
golf was so mental and it's funny
as such a mental, emotional,
personal preference thing that, you know,
you get back to the top and you're there.
And you're like, well, okay, perfect.
I'm throwing my old gamer in here.
That's taking me to victory lane five
times and then boom, look where you're at.
You know, it's that, it's that
crazy. It's that mental that,
that could even happen.
Right. But it happens a lot.
And the way some of these guys
change it, it just blows your mind.
Another thing that we deal with, you know,
and if you're paying somebody and
they can't take it out of play,
don't take it out of play.
By the balls. Right. You're like,
what's do I use my putter, not you,
but I'm saying a big bird, bigger brand
could have them. And they're like, well,
you still have to use our putter. And
you're like, but I'm losing with it.
I think ultimately the guys there's enough
options with the bigger manufacturers
that they just had to use
something. Right. Uh, they,
they hate change and mid tournament.
Some of them are very fickle and they'll
change more than others, but that's,
I would say that the 80 20 rule,
you know, but they're going to,
if they're not putting well, they're,
they're typically not going
to switch mid tournament.
They're just gonna work harder
that week leading into it.
And then before and after around,
and then maybe look at switching around
the following the following week,
if they can't get the thing going again.
But it's been interesting being out
on the greens for the last five years,
six years, and seeing all
that stuff from all the,
what goes on and guys that put them in
and guys to take them out and guys come
and try us and they think
it's great. And I mean,
there's some big names that have had
our putter and put it a ton with it and
practice saying, they're going to put
it in play. And then they never do.
It's just a really, really interesting
landscape out there. And really,
it's funny if you were to take cure,
if you were to take our potters and put
one of the big names on and stick them
out there, it'd be really interesting
to see, but what happened?
And I think about that with some of the,
I think about with your putter brand,
a couple of the brands that I know,
and I work with some friends with,
and I think about that too. Or it's like,
what would, if that was a large brand,
you know, like,
why are these not getting the
recognition that they should? Right.
Because they're not spending money.
I mean, they're spent a ton of money,
but not spending enough money.
They're not being outspent. I mean,
as I feel like that's,
I feel like one of the problems
with the golf industry is right.
It's all about money. So it's
like, you gotta pay a pay to play.
And if you don't have the
big, huge budget to spend,
then people may never hear
of your product. Right.
Yeah. Where we say is there, they're not
golf companies or marketing companies.
That's all we say. I mean, we're a
golf company with real technology.
And if we had the Mark
background, not bad.
Money. Yeah. If you're like
a half a billion dollars
or something crazy to like,
just spend Willy nilly,
I think here's why I think
this year is a very, I mean,
we all know what's going on with
Kobe and what's in all of our lives,
but I think it's very interesting
year for golf, especially because I,
I feel I've heard from people
that the big companies are hurting
bad, like really, really bad
insider people telling me this.
And then the smaller ones are like, Oh
yeah, we're, we're selling like hotcakes.
Like it's like, because direct to
consumer number one, but number two,
it's like people are willing or home or
they're able to actually find out like,
what's really good. Not, they can go
over to PGA Superstore and go buy it.
Right. Like.
Yeah. I think you're, I
think you're right on that.
I don't know the exact numbers inside
the big guys right now is here.
So I hear some things, but I can tell
you that I know what our numbers are.
We've been up every month, month, over
month, the entire year. And, uh, it's,
you know, nothing it's chocked
up to exactly. The thing
is you're saying, right.
You can't go out and get the thing
somewhere else. When everything's closed,
people are looking more inward. People
are online. So we'll see. I don't know.
Hopefully it's not all that. And this
can keep going. Obviously for us.
Maybe like a Renaissance I'm
hoping, right. Because a couple,
I'm not to name brands, but a couple of
brands have told me, they're like, yeah.
You know, we've been direct to
consumer forever. And we were like,
but we also were selling the
big brand, but big box stores.
And they were like 80 20, right.
In that same regard where like 80% of
those retail big box. And now like,
now it's complete. It's now it's like
95, five, right. Or something like that.
It's like a feather in your cap. If you
can get into a big box retailer, like,
Oh, look, I got into PGA
Superstore, you know, but it's like,
you're not making Jack shit because all
the costs and there'd be naked in the
store.
It's tough. But you
know, I mean, it was a,
it was a big deal for us
to get into superstores.
I'm sure three, four years ago,
because you know, you need,
you need the eyeballs and that
people need to see that in there,
which has been great for
us. And you know, they,
they don't play bass or wonder for four
putters. They play some big orders.
So everybody wants that,
but there's a lot and working with them
and it that's a different channel. So,
you know, it's just, uh, that's a, that's
a tough space to play in. You know,
you need to have,
you need to have that demand for
them to really scale your stuff.
And turn up. And the, yeah,
you gotta have the people walking by
to see that and be like, what's that,
you know, and then finding it, I
think direct to consumer, I think,
I think this year is going to be
the death of malls personally. Like,
doesn't matter where your mall is.
I don't care if it's the nicest
mall in the area. No. One's to like,
this is the death of malls. Like.
Outdoor ones are going to be okay. The
indoor ones are in big trouble. Yeah.
Like where you are, where we are.
I think, uh, I think, you know,
our outdoor malls here are still
crank. And even during the code though.
I would agree. I think
the big old night, I mean,
even the nicer malls around here, like,
they're just, no one's going inside.
What's the nice one out there
by you. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah. That's good.
That's going to do fine.
Yeah. But I mean, it's like, they,
if that's super high end, right.
That's like the, that's like, yeah,
that's a whole nice area over there,
but I mean, you're seeing
it, you're seeing it in
commercial real estate, right.
People are realizing you don't need to
have all those commercial real estate.
I mean, at least I see that in my world,
but I think you're seeing
it with the golf industry,
especially because once people
find out, I'll give an example.
Like I reviewed a golf bag, the minimal
golf bag once ago, before I even came,
like when I came out and we,
I talked to Sam golden on podcasts,
I don't know, a month ago.
And you know, yeah. Yeah.
He's a good dude, man.
I like him. He's super good, dude.
He's most down to earth dude.
Like I talked to him a couple
of weeks ago. Oh, did you?
I love all my good friends. Like,
he's cool as hell he was on the show.
Actually we're giving away a minimal
bag of listening contest is over in like
five days. So, um, yeah. I mean,
that's a very innovative bag.
I love talking innovative brands
like yourself, right? Like, you know,
like I saw earlier before the show,
like I have a call call with Encore
tomorrow to top up for the podcast.
Like I think people need to know
about brands because what's happening.
I'm hoping is that all this noise.
I don't see the big brands doing a
lot of marketing right now. I mean,
I don't know if you've seen
it, but they're not, you know,
I heard from somebody that some people
have been writing those gonna write off
this year. Some of the big
brands are and be like,
we'll figure it out next year.
I don't, if that's true or not.
From a business standpoint, that's
like a, see people say all, yeah,
this can be a tough year. So we're going
to dump everything bad in this year.
A lot of times big companies are going
to do that. You know, when you, if,
if you have a bad year, just put
everything in it. Right. Get it all out,
get it all out of the way and
then move into the next year.
So it's all upward from there and
you rebuild momentum faster and
I can get into a lot of
reasons why people do that.
So I could see somebody saying that,
but I don't think people are, I
don't think they're mailing it in.
I think they're doing what
they can to salvage it.
And then basically looking at it, like
it was going to be bad. And then let's,
we'll just take every hit we need
to take to get out of the way. Yeah.
Stuff comes out. What does
this almost August? Right.
So four months from now
and new stuff, you know,
we'll start hearing about the new titles.
Stuff. That'll be coming soon. Yeah.
So it was in August, right?
Yeah. And then, you know,
golf slows down in October.
These does here in Arizona because there's
receding but safe because we ended up
tournaments for three months. Then
we're at the masters in November. Right.
So like, I don't see golf slowing
down at all. You know, I don't,
if we're going to have the
PGA show next year with COVID,
COVID still going around. There's no
PGA show. Like I couldn't imagine.
That's going to be hard to pull
off. If Cobra is still gone around,
I'm hoping that we're starting
to see finally some meats,
some early success trends. I
hope it kind of feels like it.
It was like, I mean, I saw you
in January, right? In a January.
So like a month and a half later,
like I felt like after the PGA show,
there's a lot, a lot, a
lot of momentum. Right?
All these brands have a good show.
Um, a lot of networking, whatever.
And you can feel the momentum. Cause
now it's almost like I feel it,
it goes PGA show Phoenix open once the
Phoenix open is there that's when golf
starts. I don't care about the one Hawaii.
Cause no one's watching that anyways.
So things open happens. Golf's
open at that point, right? Yeah.
Well, for parts of the country,
I don't think the mass is really
opens until the masters and the
masters, because I mean, half the
country's under snow during that, like,
you know, my area, your area,
California, Sunbelt, whatever.
That's that's going to be Phoenix open.
Yeah. Yeah. That's when we open up.
Yeah.
Like in Arizona, I don't know
if it's like this in Florida,
but like October is a dead month for
golf and Arizona like completely dead.
Cause that's when the receivings all
the courses are closed. Not here.
Really? Yeah. No, we, we crank straight
through and then you get, I mean,
you know, we're lucky to play year
round, 70, 80 degrees. No problem.
Even on our winter days, it's
still in the fifties, you know,
during the day anyway. And so it,
it, it keeps going. Yeah. I mean,
holidays will slow down on as
far as rounds, a little bit,
but sales wise. No, because
of holidays, you know,
you typically get an uptick, everybody
wants golf stuff for Christmas. So then.
At what point, because I
remember you once told me,
like you were going like all over
the world, right? Like distribution,
like everywhere. And then you guys kind
of pulled back on that a little bit.
Right?
So we grew like crazy. We
were doing green grass,
we're doing big box. We're doing
specialty, we're doing distributors,
we're doing international
arts. And uh, and we were,
we and we were ripping and running,
man. It was fun. It was, it was hard,
but it was fun. And we really,
we got banged up internationally.
That was a game that we
started in we're Crow.
We were crushing it.
But you know, we don't,
we don't have the infrastructure,
like the big brands to
police all that stuff
internationally. And
that's one thing that I would
definitely tip my hat to those guys. Um,
they, they do a really good job of
policing that business and, you know,
the knockoffs and the unauthorized
retail and just all of that.
And in order for us to kind of salvage
the relationships with our international
distributors,
we had to go in to foreign
countries and try to
shut all these unauthorized
retailers and knockoff folks down.
And that takes a lot of time,
takes a lot of money and,
uh, it's,
it's hard and we shut
down about 90% of places
and that wasn't good enough. So, um,
that's a space that we still do
a little bit of business in, but,
uh, until we have the infrastructure
to kind of revisit to larger
deals, we're, we're, you know,
it did to police them, right.
We can't revisit the larger
deals. Cause it's just,
even if we caught fire again
and started cranking a product,
somebody else is gonna come along
and knock it off again or whatever.
And like lawless there pretty much.
And unfortunately that's the problem.
Some people listened and others didn't
and actually shockingly you know,
that we got great representation for
some of the global relationships that we
had on a legal side that went in and
they were very effective to the tune of
about 90%, not like 80%
of the folks we shut down,
but the problem is you need
them all down, a medium,
all gone because they're still
there. They're still disruptive.
They're still selling the product.
So the distributors are
competing these guys and.
Not a knockoff of it, but then it's
like, you're gonna spend, I mean,
think about that. This is so hard, right?
Because you spend enough time trying to
run your business and now you have to
like police your products
in other countries, which
is a big money sink because,
because right.
Well, and we thought like, you know,
from what, from our vantage point,
we were cranking so well that, you know,
we were looking at all
different kinds of options.
We actually looked at manufacturing
over there, which we've never done.
We've always been in the U S
and we're super proud of that.
But at one point the numbers are getting
so big where we'd have to make them
over there so we could leave him over
there and eliminate that shipping problem.
Um, and we never got far enough down
the road on that anyway. But, uh,
we were making all kinds of plans in
our factor here and John to get out in
front of it. So if it kept going that
we could manage it, cause it, man,
it's a bear.
Imagine, I couldn't imagine it's
like foreign relations, right?
Like you're the CIA or something.
And you're like trying to manage something
in a different country with different
rules with lawlessness, I would
say. Right. Like, and I mean,
I could.
It's just unfortunate, you know, it
just unforced, it's one of those things,
one of his business lessons and it
was, it was great while I was laughing,
you know? Well, while it lasted and uh,
and you know, we may revisit that, but,
uh, we're gonna,
we definitely have to have the
infrastructure to be able to place it.
So as right now, I mean,
I would assume that majority of your
sales is coming from direct to consumer,
right? Yes. The big box store. Yup.
Was it always like that though?
Or would you say it was like 50, 50?
No, it was definitely,
it's definitely now shaded more towards
a direct consumer where before that was
the, that was the, that was the
smallest channel we had. And you know,
you got to remember when you're, when
you're in those other channels, the,
you know, our customers don't really
want to compete with us. Right. So we,
we weren't after the
direct consumer business,
because it was a little
bit taboo in a way.
So we had much more focus on the
other channels and grown that brand.
Yeah. Like the, yeah. The
normal business way. Right?
Like I've been direct to
consumers just really take off,
tastes taken off in the
last five, 10 years.
So then what do you guys have going on,
like coming out in the next this year?
Is there a new products coming
out or you're in the process?
Yeah. We've got a,
we've got a great product roadmap and
we're working on prototyping and trying
to figure out what we're going to bring
out and trying to figure out, you know,
what, what is the, what's
the runway look like here?
Is it really going to be a PGA show?
Do we, you know, if there isn't,
when are we going to roll it out?
Those are all the kinds of questions
that we're dealing with right now.
It's really interesting because I like
a lot of my friends at different brands,
like I'm seeing on every, everyone's
doing something different, you know,
like one of my friend's brands,
what they ended up doing was they
had a whole, uh, calendar right.
Of how they're gonna do releases this
year. And there was like, you know what,
screw it. We're just gonna release
it all now. And then we're do,
or we're just get, and they actually
sold out. Right. Which is cool.
But their initial orders were so,
you know, that's one thing of it.
Another way I've seen it is stuff that
was supposed to be released in March.
Got pushed. Right. Cause he
couldn't get the product.
And now they're releasing two
weeks ago and they're two,
the five colors of a certain product and
they've sold out three. So, you know,
it's like, this is like the old
West now just like, this is,
this is all new chair, unchartered
territory. Like there's no like, Oh,
so we do, it's like, it's you just kind
of gut feeling to see how, what happens.
I'll usually any, a really wrong
answer, you know, just more about.
You get,
you definitely gotta be trying stuff
and you gotta be trying some new things.
For sure.
So like, I know you can carry many
hats. Right? So you, you have cure,
but then also you have
your M and a firm, right.
That you do work with or any company,
what other kinds of businesses do you.
Yeah, I'm involved in a
social media company and um,
and then I, I coach a lot of youth
sports. That's cool. Yeah. That's a lot.
Well, I'll tell you guys, this guy,
he's like the smartest guy I know,
like for those businessman wise
now for real, it's like, yeah,
yeah. I know. I'm not trying to, no,
I'm being serious. Like I'm on the show.
I was like, Holy crap. I smart. Um, so
now your son's going to Georgia, right?
Yeah. My oldest is a Georgia. That's
awesome. Yeah. For a lot of fun,
part of the football team
there, we love going there.
Hopefully we have have our season.
We'll find out a couple of days here.
Well, I just want to say
thanks for being on the show.
I know you're busy and I appreciate
it very much. Uh, like I said,
you guys here makes some of the
best potters around Jim is awesome.
That's all I have to say about that and
bike your putter because it will really
help you score more without having
to take five pots to make it.
So thank you again for being on the show
and see you guys in the next episode.
