Oh, thank you
Fairey
Thank you
Thank you. Very fine. Thank you for their spontaneous. Welcome. That's very much
appreciated
So this evening we have a wonderful time wonderful time
are we going to be talking about it's
Kept us in about humanism and rationality and some of the things are happening in the world today and hopefully some jokes as well
What more what more could you ask for so I'm going to ask you to give a very warm welcome to our first speaker
Please welcome all the weight flown a long way to be here to be with us this evening Robin blunder
Hello
Hello everyone. Welcome to the 17th Richard Dawkins award celebration. My name is Robyn bellum nur
I'm the CEO of the Center for inquiry and
executive director of the Richard Dawkins foundation for reason and science in the US
Now these organizations have recently merged our shared mission is to promote the separation of church and state
the rights of non-believers and atheists around the world and the end to
pseudoscience wherever that arises
so
Thank you
So with equal vigor
we fight against the regressive forces of the religious, right and
the anti science
anti-vaccination movement on the Left
we
We stand against those who would defraud the gullible with their nonsense claims of
Communing with the dead and psychic powers and we fight against the industry that markets worthless
alternative medicine such as
Homeopathy and I understand your Prince Charles could use a talking to about that
Which would one of you do that for me, please?
So if they're at the Center for inquiry and the Richard Dawkins foundation
Our job is to engage people's rational faculties. We hold religious dogma up to scrutiny
Which is where it goes to die
We reject superstition because it's bollocks. I
know your word and
As a natural consequence of all of this we bring people to atheism
Now making people into atheists is not particularly easy in the United States
I mean, we're a highly religious country
and of course
We don't have the great tool for doing that that you have in Great Britain the Church of England
So tonight tonight is a celebration of critical thinking at its most brilliant and witty
Richard Dawkins, Ricky Ricky Gervais and Richard Weissman are among the world's greatest living ambassadors of reason in science
And it's pretty history-making to have them all onstage together
Tonight the amazing Ricky Gervais swill join the ranks of other Richard Dawkins Award winners
Including people like Bill Maher and ayaan Hirsi Ali and your own Christopher Hitchens and Stephen Fry
What these extraordinary Award winners have in common is their
I'll have to look at the table later
What they all have in common is their willingness to slay mythology's that people cling to it ad evidence and
As a result each has helped to advance human progress and humanist values
Now some people see religion as a benign force or even a force for good but because it's not true it
has to use techniques other than logic and
Human reason to keep a grip on its adherents and this plays out in highly destructive ways around the world
In the rejection of science because ideas like evolution are at odds with the biblical
account of creation in
groundless and irrational dogmas
finding their way into law resulting in the discrimination against LGBTQ people and
limits on women's reproductive freedom and this is all bad enough in countries with a
Judeo-christianity background, but in Muslim countries, there's an even heightened
epidemic of bad effects in
13 countries of the world atheism is a capital offense
You can be put to death for non belief
So one of the programs of the Richard Dawkins Foundation and the Center for inquiry is called secular rescue and as the name
implies
It rescues people around the world who are risk from simply being an atheist or criticizing religion
We have literally helped dozens of atheists leave their homes and find safety
Thereby escaping prison mob violence and even death and another intellectual lifeline
Around the world is through our translations project
We provide access to the books of Richard Dawkins
Translated into languages dominant in the Muslim world
And they are offered as a free download. So that means native speakers in Arabic Urdu
Indonesian and Farsi can now obtain The God Delusion
and Richards books on
evolutionary biology with a click of a mouse
We know we know that an earlier copy of The God Delusion
Translated into Arabic. That was a bootleg copy
Has been downloaded more than 13 million times and three million of those in Saudi Arabia
alone
So
At the Richard Dawkins foundation
we're bringing the truth of science to places where that's heretical and
we are bringing a religious doubt to places where such such questions are treasonous and
despite the odds
This is a hopeful endeavor
We are spreading the Enlightenment values and we are unleashing the power of human reason
So, please consider joining our efforts
supporting our efforts by becoming a member
You know the famed mathematician and evolutionary biologist
JBS Haldane said quote
There is no great invention from fire to flying
Which has not been hailed as an insult to some God
So tonight I say let the insults begin. Thank you
Fantastic class Thank You, Robin
Tonight obviously, we're here to celebrate the 2019 Richard Dawkins award
And I mean, it's absolute pleasure to introduce somebody who has never received that award
Please welcome Richard Dawkins
I'm sorry to say I hadn't seen any of Ricky's wonderful shows and I met him for the first time
it was backstage in a London theatre where the comedian Robin intz had organised an
Alternative Christmas a Christmas for atheists. I
Was one of the many performers and Robin had lined up some really big names as well
including Ricky Gervais as one of the star turns I
Was astounded by the audacity of his act
It reminded me of a New York Times review of Tom Lehrer that wonderfully witty American songwriter and performer
the New York Times said
Mr. Lara's Muse is not fettered by such inhibiting factors as taste
Well Ricky's act was like that only more so I found his script literally shocking and I don't shock easily
Naturally this drew
Me to him
How I asked him did you get away with it?
He admitted that he was using the Atheist audience as a testbed to try out ideas and see just how far he could go
Before subjecting a real audience to a more generally acceptable version. He was he was pushing the envelope
numbers rephrased that he was using the Atheist audience to reach way outside the envelope
In order to calibrate where the bounds might be for an ordinary there. I say less interesting audience. I
Next met Ricky when I interviewed him for one of my channel 4
Documentaries we pretty much agreed about everything
Some people think that makes for bad television
It's not exciting the public want disagreement
Well, I've never thought that agreement can be interesting as well as verbal fisticuffs
It doesn't have to be tame and bland and I need hardly say there's nothing tame or bland about Ricky Gervais
his comedy
Equally gives offense
not least in his splendidly irreverent takedowns of Hollywood celebs in his presentations of the Golden Globe and
Things like that if there was a Golden Globe for seeing how far you can go and just getting away with it
Ricky would win hands down
And he's so witty and entertaining with it
More recently. I've been watched
his various drama series The Office Derek extras afterlife
And what I've learned is that
He's a truly great playwright and actor as well as a stand-up comedian
The character of David Brent in the office is so sensitively written
I found the embarrassment of it too near the bone always couldn't bear to go on watching like
Like 48 hours, but I also admire
Perhaps my favorite of all his shows is Derek where Ricky plays a supremely kind and gentle
half-wit it's
It's a piece of acting genius, but he also shows his writing genius as for afterlife
It almost had me in tears. It's so
movingly clever
Ricky is not just a stand-up comedian. Not just a great comic actor. He's an outstandingly creative writer as well
Like Woody Allen except Ricky is capable of playing more than one character
I'm going to end my
acclamation of this witty hero of
Atheism and reason with a long series of quotations from him because I think they're so wonderful
on life and death
It's a strange myth that atheists have nothing to live for it's the opposite
We have nothing to die for we have everything to live for
It's amazing life there's so much to live for as for death they said
That's the best thing about being dead. You don't know about it. It's like being stupid. It's only painful for others
The doctrine of hell is one of the most evil things about both Christianity and Islam
at least it is to the extent that people really believe it but as Ricky points out a
Christian telling an atheist they're going to hell is as scary as a child telling an adult. They're not getting any presents from Santa
Another wonderful Sallie remember if you don't sin Jesus died for nothing
On morality and the absurd myths that you need religion to be good
Do unto others is a good rule of some I live by that
Forgiveness is probably the greatest virtue there is but that's exactly what it is a virtue. Not just a Christian virtue
No, one owns being good. I'm good. I just don't believe I'll be rewarded for it in heaven
My reward is here
and now it's knowing that I try to do the right thing that I lived a good life and that's where
spirituality really lost its way when it became a stick to beat people with do this or you will burn in hell you
Won't burn in hell, but be nice anyway
And one of the nice what are the things that you'll notice about Ricky if you follow him on Twitter, for example
He's how nice he is is he can be cutting in his wit?
And he can of course give a fence but he has a wonderful
gentle side as well
Frequently to non-human animals, but to human animals as well when asked once whether he believed in God his reply was I believe in dogs?
as
for Twitter itself I can strongly
emphasize with this
Arguing with morons on Twitter. He's like correcting graffiti on a public toilet wall that you'll never need to use again. I
Read that Ricky had an early ambition to be a scientist and his attitude to science seems to me exactly right
Of course, he wouldn't claim to be a scientist to quote him
Science seeks the truth and it does not discriminate for better or worse. It finds things out
Science is humble. It knows what it knows and it knows what it doesn't know
It bases its conclusions and beliefs on hard evidence
Evidence that is constantly updated and upgraded
It doesn't get offended when new facts come along. It embraces the body of knowledge
It doesn't hold on to medieval practices because they are
traditional and
The following seems to me to show an admirably a scientific attitude to theology
The existence of God is not subjective
He either exists or he doesn't it's not a matter of opinion. You can have your own opinions, but you can't have your own facts
Ricky is immensely famous, of course, and he's very gracious about being stopped in the street and other aspects of Fame
But being famous also prompted are typically witty
Remark on the subject of the widespread belief that only religious people are moral
Being famous is like believing in God
Someone's watching you all the time
I've never quite known how to cope with the retort that it's only
Extremists who get a religion a bad name
Ricky's answer to that at least hits one nail on the head
You can easily spot any religion of peace. It's extremist members would be extremely peaceful
Literary scholars have sometimes pointed out how fine can be the line between tragedy and comedy?
Some of the greatest comedians and comic characters have been close to crotchety
Charlie Chaplin Buster Keaton, Tony Hancock
Falstaff Basil Fawlty
Ricky Gervais is one of the world's great comedians, but unlike some comedians. He's not himself a tragic figure. He's a happy man
with an endearing smile a
laughing court jester in a dark time
He uses humor to lift us all out of despond
Other comedians may do that in
Escapist way making us laugh as a way of running away
from the dark reality of life
Ricky doesn't do that on the contrary
he goes right to the heart of the darkness tackles the evils of life and the evil people by confronting them head-on and
Laughing at them as he himself said if you can't joke about the most horrendous things in the world
What's the point of jokes? What's the point in having humor humor is to get us over
terrible things
Ladies and gentlemen
atheists and rationalists
I give you a great hero of our movement our own wittily creative infectiously laughing court jester
ricky gervais
Fantastic I can take that back from you. I directly I sit down that's it
Now Richard digits you have been all in black that would look really amazing trick
I think you do have the power of your mind. That was amazing
So we're going to chat about
I'm gonna start off picking up on one of the topics you mentioned there
Which is I think many people in the public atheists of this
Reputation for being a little bit down in the world and a little bit pessimistic
Are you I mean, we're living in quite a difficult time in the moment. I are you optimistic people. Are you optimistic about the future?
well
I don't know
I'm happy. I've always been happy
I've been at I have I was I've always tried to get the most out of life
It was I I worked out early on that. That was the shortcut. I wanted. I just wanted to be happy
I did that first and then decided how I was going to sort of make a living
am I optimistic I
Mean I've got nothing to fear
I look at this
Bit like a holiday. We don't exist for thirteen and a half billion years
Then we exist for 80 90 100 years if we're lucky and you experience everything it's amazing
I mean
It's amazing to be alive the chances of us being here as us that sperm hitting that egg is four hundred
trillion to one
It's incredible that we're here, you know, and then we die never to exist again, you know
And then some people even get offended by me saying that
they that
they say things like I'm
You don't know that
I'll probably live again are you know some summer said on Twitter once to me? Why don't you pray just in case there's a god?
And I said, why don't you put garlic over your door just in case there's a Dracula
I've got I've got no problem with with praying, you know, I'd you know, I
It doesn't bother me for I've never been bothered by spirituality
I don't believe in it, but it's I never a personal belief has never been a danger
Um, I was so religion is something else and not even just religion
But Dogma dogmas that is the dangerous bit and it just really exist in religion
it exists in more and more places now that cultism that that which shouldn't be questioned anything that
You know, that's that's what you want a question. If someone says you shouldn't question this though
You've got you've got to question it you've got
That
Sort experiment about the improbability of being here and all indeed the chance of one sperm eating one egg
Yeah, and I love to quote a poem by Aldous Huxley. I think it's called fist philosopher song and it goes a million million spermatozoa
All of them alive out of their Cataclysm, but one poor noah dare
Hope to survive and all that billion minus one might have chanced to be shakespeare another newton a new done
But the one was me
Shame to have ousted your betters thus taking arc when the others remained outside
Better for all of us fraud homunculus if you'd quietly died
That's great
But I mean, I
Think realistically we probably have to be pessimistic
But that's no way to live a life. I think you've got to be optimistic
Otherwise is that you you're not gonna have any chance of changing things to make them better
So I say I'm realistically a pessimist but I live my life as an optimist
And like really I'm happy. Yeah, and I don't think it's and I think you if I get it right your question is geared to
Either are we are we worried about not exist again, or are we worried about how where the world's going?
Well, there's not a lot we can do about it. Either way, you know, it's not a choice
Is that are you gonna die or live?
Probably I just live forever
Which I probably wouldn't choose or I would then regret it I think the first million years I'd really be kicking myself I've got
Why I choose infinity
There's no way how I quite absolutely agree with that what's frightening about death is not death itself
It's infinity. It's it's eternity. Yeah, I want to spend eternity under a general anesthetic
Yes gonna happen exactly. Yeah
Oh, yeah and Bentham, you know
We don't know we don't know but I imagine it's like the thirteen and a half
Billion years before we were born and that was fine
Well, um, before we started I did put on Twitter a a call for questions
Regarding in some yeah their needs. How are you asking for it?
Well, the first question was to Richard actually, which is about Charles Darwin
Created the theory of evolution. How did animals change before that?
So that's not that's a joke
That's a joke, isn't it that you may better I'll make that one up I know though, yep, but listen, okay
That is a joke, but it's no more stupid than some real one
Okay, the the the the one that obviously everyone gets and I used to be frivolous and I used to do not now
I just answer him seriously. Um
if we evolved from apes
Why are there still Apes around I used to say things like well
If god made man from dust, why is there still dust around and things that you know?
but now I say well we didn't evolve from
modern age we evolved with modern Apes from a common ancestor rather like and I just answer it deadly deadly serious like they
You know, it doesn't help
Someone someone followed it up with
Well, I've been that that go into the same zoo for twenty four years and I haven't seen one monkey turn into a person
But I think I think even though that's incredibly stupid
We think actually it shows what the problem is when people try and understand it
They can't grasp the scale of it. They can't imagine these tiny changes. No one can imagine fifty million years
So they do expect them to the chimp to go. Come on lad
And that's because they also give it a will
They think they think even non-religious people are trying to understand you. They try and think that the the giraffe was
Really stretching his neck, you know
That's the problem. There's lots of little logical problems that hasn't been explained properly
But actually it's if I can understand it anyone can you know and Richard you must have been asked many?
Stupid questions over the years. Is there a standout stupid question for you? Yes
Well, the one that really just mentioned but there's also why did we ever see a Crocodoc?
What that's a good question great question, I would love that I would love a car
I've actually got a Crocodoc toy that somebody gave me
What image have you got in mind for a Crocodoc a
Crocodoc would be a crocodile that we angry but he's fucked because he just got a bill
That's like my time
Implication of that is that there should be an intermediate between every animal and every other animal. I think there should be that way
You can get crocodile. Well, I cut they they they can't see that it's nearly an analogue
thing as well
and and I think you've spoken at least before you're you're amazing model about if you took a picture of your dad and your
Grandparents and their dad you at any one point you go. They look alike, but at some point is a fish
You know
Eventually, there's a fish. I didn't see that coming what you did
do you sued you know, it says that they again it's the best the scale the scale is is
unimaginable, it's lucky that it did happen because we couldn't imagine it if it wasn't fact we couldn't make that up because it's
Incredible it's incredible. It's probably true
But whenever I've done that it always gets a gasp of astonishment why I mean everybody knows we're descended from fish
Yeah, well the way I put it is them if you could meet your two hundred million greats grandfather
You would eat him with a slice of lemon and tartar sauce. Yes, exactly
yeah, yeah, I
Split it is there is the scale though, isn't it? And then is it true? We're closer. I know I know closer
Is it a non-scientific term, but I'd like these facts as well that go around that we're evolutionary speaking
I think they mean in time we're closer
To a salmon than a salmon is to a shark
Respectable thing to say about yeah, nothing wrong with that. All it means is that we are close to cousins
That means to say that the common ancestor that we share with salmon lived a lot more recently than the common ancestor that salmon
Yes, sure
Yeah, so it is a Crocodoc possible
Okay, listen let me RTR take this
I'm a psychologist. So I mean I can answer this
Is that a possibility in a parallel universe? Oh, here we go
I
Did a podcast with Lawrence Krauss and he was definitely saying things that I had to just wind me up just when I started
Understanding it. He'd throw in something else. I got why are you doing that? Well, it is true that when duckbill platypuses were first
Sent back to the museum
here
Nobody believed they were real. They thought it was a hoax. They thought that somebody had taken a duck's bill and sent onto
Some other kind of kind of creature so I suppose that's the nearest approach to a Crocker duck and that is real
Because it's only monotreme that it produces eggs and milk. It could make its own custard
It doesn't but it
Could I use the instant stuff so it could use that as well together whisk it will be fine. Yes. It is amazing. I mean
Some Australian mammals. It's because is it true that?
It floated away and there weren't predators as such so and there were predators
Actually, they didn't they they most had gone extinct. There was a giant
Predatory carnivorous kangaroo for example must've been quite terrifying bounding after you with its jaws a gape. Yeah
We should bring them back yeah, I think so. Yes. Can we now now you
Started it but not into an idiot on Twitter. No, can we bring back the mammoths, you know can't we?
Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome
The greatest thing ever can we can we bring back the mammoths there is a serious possibility
The genome of the mammoths is being pretty much worked out
and
The technology to actually bring it back is isn't there yet?
We've got the genome and so it doesn't seem totally impossible that you could now. What does that mean?
Do you mean you've synthesized something or you've put together bits of day-night or the DNA exists?
And you've you found in the elephant and modified it. What does it mean?
We've got the we've got the well mean you've got the thing that would
Make a mammoth if it was
well, because frozen mammoths died sufficiently recently and they're frozen in in the Arctic so that there's plenty of
Tissue there. You can get plenty of DNA
There's a lovely Hilaire Belloc poem about the frozen mammoths which ends up
I
Can't remember how it goes, but it's the skin beat you it fit will make an excellent soup
But the snag is if the skin be but punctured before it is boiled
Your conception is wholly and utterly spoiled and hence on account of the size of the beast
The dainty is nearly unknown. But anyway, there it is. It's it's if you don't know the answer Richard just say so
Right, you asked to this it's
So high, you know you how would we bring it back? How could how what is the process?
What would we do the process is that you use the you use the soft tissues of this frozen mammoth?
Sequence the DNA and that's pretty much been done with a little bit of filling in with the elephant DNA as well
Now what we don't yet have the ability to do is to implant that DNA into an elephant egg
Right, then put the elephant egg into a put the elephant egg with mammoth DNA
Into a female elephant and then grow the embryo so it'd be it would be a hybrid
Mostly no. No. No, how would you how could you see? Oh, so you'd clone? Oh you'd cloned the
Dolly the sheep. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it would be that kind of thing
so dolly had it was a sheep egg and into that sheep egg was it was put the
DNA of another sheep, right? And so and then
If a mammoth baby come out wouldn't that surprise the elephant?
No doubt. Yes, no doubt. A lot of people have hairy babies
And fast and everything like
Elephants have got tasks. Ostrich is just hairier than this. Yeah, if if you could
Clone a mammoth
Would you do it not clubbing would you would you?
I would but there are many who wouldn't there are many think it would be unethical somehow to do this. They think
It would be um cruel
Why would it be cruel because it wouldn't ever be in its natural habitat. Well
If you made lots of them, there's some people think that we should actually
clone, lots of them and let them loose on them on the Siberian tundra - to him, you know bring back the ecology that
I'd bring back
Tyrannosaurus Rex I let it loose in parts of England to be honest
Would you do if you could if you were part of the committee deciding whether to bring back a mammoth, how would you vote I
Don't know why I would I would I would I be doing it just cuz I could
Because that's summoned to be said
He what he what
I
Don't know what
Yeah, yes. I don't know about I'm not I'm not certain the answer
I was a lot more comfortable. We talking about Crocodoc slow. I'll give you that so
Okay, so we'll move it. I'm the away from mammoths n' and crocodiles D
So atheism. Yeah, so I can remember I don't know if this has any resonance for YouTube
I can remember listening to you on the radio. I can't place this
I know it's a long time ago and I would think it's after
The initial success of the office I think and I think it's Steve right? I might be wrong and
he said something like
Oh, you must wake up in the morning and say thank God for my amazing things that are happening
And you said why would I say thank God. I'm an atheist right? And it was the first time I'd heard the word atheist
I'm kind of public radio
well, I mean
yeah, there shouldn't even be the word should there if people didn't invent gods I wouldn't have to deny them and it's just
It's like I
I was told when I sort of started breaking America to not mention, I was Nathan really first thing I did on everybody
First thing I did why what what am I gonna do imagine?
Imagine not doing something because people hate you because of what you are. That's that's you know
That's my only thing I've got I'm a white rich middle class man, but I'm at least I'm hated for being an atheist
you know, I mean
I'm oppressed I have oppressed in 13 countries. I'd never go to anyway
Have you seen the change in your of the last 20 years or so about how
Atheism is perceived. Well, I mean you sort of do it I
There's part of me that does it because I think I should that there is someone being persecuted now that might you know
I can't I can't change the world
But what I mean?
maybe someone in a Western world that thinks they shouldn't come out because it's a bad thing because
It's still a bad thing in Western society in America
they took about up America right the but probably that big bit in the middle of America, but
We were voted least
trustworthy group joint bottom with rapists
So there's still a thing about I better not say I'm an atheist that are annoying my mom or dad or granddad or school
There's still that so you do that some of that I do it as an intellectual pursuit because someone asked me a question
I'd rather give the right answer than the wrong answer
I'd rather tell the truth than lie because it's easier, you know, I think the ability people think I run into churches and go
It's all fucking bollocks. I die. I
Don't I don't care, you know, I don't
But if I'm asked if I believe in God, I'll say no. I mean, you know
the tricky one is some I
Did a film called the invention of lying where I did a scene where my thank you seven people saw that film
Where my mother in that is dying and it's because I'm the only person in the society can lie
She says I I don't want to go to nothingness and I go there's not nothing
This is a beautiful place you go. And you're young again and I invent heaven right and
That comes from a fact that when my mum was dying, I did face dilemma
If she'd have said you think there's a god that's that's a personal
thing and that's a you know, um
So yeah, I am I I try I just try and be honest, really
and the other is if if someone else's kid five-year-old asked me do I believe in God I
Sort of think. What should I say here?
And I say well I don't but a lot of people do what do you think?
you know I try and I there's still a a
Diploma is not it's not always my place. You don't you know, I mean I'd
But you know my house my rules if someone asks me someone Twitter, I turn the truth
The last 20 30 years have you seen that a change in how atheism and is is perceived? I'm not just sociologist
I haven't done the research. I'm not a psychologist. So I
Not sure would only be a subjective impression
The statistics suggest that we are growing in numbers
Obviously in
Western Europe
But also even in America
I think the number of people who claim no religion in the United States is now more than twenty percent
Which is large compared to any particular
Religious denomination. So I think that the the statistics show that the trend is in the right direction, but as Ricky says
other polls show that we're done down there with rapists in in
Terms of public. I think I have to lump us in with
You know
Agnostics which again? I keep trying to explain that on Twitter that they're not mutually exclusive
you know one deals with knowledge one deals with belief and so
You know
People say on Twitter to me over there. It's a logical to be an atheist
You should be agnostic and I say well I am I am as well
Agnostic see on your nerves a bit. Well
No, because we're all agnostic aren't we we all don't a stick by definition if if we accept that no one knows
Knowledge, you know, I'm being very diplomatic here. But if we accept that no one knows that there's a god or not
We might be wrong and weird 99% Sure no
But let's say we we don't know we're all agnostic. So take it out. It doesn't matter now. We ask about belief
What do you believe what's your best bet when someone says they're agnostic if there isn't it sort of attempting to go
what do you just think about it a bit more than
Because it well, I just think that there's a there's a yes
But there's a category mistake some people do do it because they don't want to say they believe in God, you know
But if you you shouldn't ask an agnostic if there's a God or not, you should ask them
Do you believe there's a god or not? Because then they can't say I don't know because that doesn't make sense
Well, you don't know whether you believe or not right, you know, so
yeah, I I think the the
really sick making thing is people who think because because they're
Agnostic, and we can we can't know for sure
Therefore the likelihood is 50/50. Hmm. Yeah, very different
I mean, it's it's you know, I'm I'm agnostic but I think but I believe that the likelihood is about 1 percent or less
Yes
Yes, if we accept that, we don't know if it's a default. We don't know no one's come back from heaven
No one's proved it
you can't prove the non-existence of something and why would you the periodic table of non-existent things is infinite, you know, it's like
So if we accept that
That's that's a knowledge. That's a category of knowledge. But if you just say, what do you believe?
Yeah, you have to step up right you have to say what you believe and if you don't believe in any God
You're an atheist. That's the other misconception people think that atheism is denying the existence of God
It's not it's just not accepting the claim that there is a God, you know if there were 3 doors which God exists
God doesn't exist. I don't know that doesn't make sense
There's three doors. It says God exists. It doesn't exist
I don't know you not knowing is irrelevant to where there is or isn't the god
You can you've done a sleight-of-hand there on a category mistake because one is knowledge and to our beliefs, right what?
Session no what? No. No, there's always it. I'm saying 3 is always there if you had to choose one
Yeah, it's um, I but I believe
There's a god I don't believe there's a god. I don't know. Is it relevant then, isn't it?
Crock adducts when
So maybe wants my Twitter Twitter questions you spoke about lying there
What's the the biggest lie, you've told to impress somebody?
is that a question that's been submitted for on Twitter the biggest lie you've told
To impress somebody it's quite a tricky question actually, ah the because I've told to impress someone. Yeah, I
Honestly can't think of one. Yeah Richard or something. Not only can I not think of one. I'm quite confident. There's never been one
You've never told a lie to impress anyone
I've told a lie - not hurt people's fear. That's different
Yes, I suppose that's to impress them because I want them to like me by not saying so it might exact it
So can you come to my party? I say no. I can't I'm giving blood of the orphanage or something
No, because I don't want to say of course, I'm not coming to your party. I hate you and all your friends it would be
so
My lies are usually because I haven't got the nerve to be honest when it's someone's findings. They're all white lies. Yeah, okay
But I don't think I've lied - like on a CV or something. I
Didn't write the question
Okay, there are three doors I believe in God I don't
Um, I suppose that works if you say which answer sums you up most that's allowed
I think what would the three doors? Yeah, there is no God. There is a God
I don't know I'd go for there is no God because I'd want to identify
With choosing that door, but there's still the category was saying because one deals with knowledge in one
Now the category Maceda background in philosophy, of course your first degrees in philosophy is that my only degree okay
Your last degree. Yeah, he made it sound really good
Yes, degree a lie to impress exactly. Yeah, in fact my first degree was biology which I did for two weeks
And then swapped a velocity there were nine o'clock lectures it was 40 hours a week
I suddenly got to university and thought I haven't come here to learn. I've come here to join a band
do you not I mean and so that's a category our
Philosophy was um, yeah, I did philosophy and I have you ever found that useful
well
Only that everything is is
Useful that you look and he sort of dig well and that's not true. Is it really?
I
suppose
Critical thinking is is useful
But I think I already had it or I wouldn't have done science and philosophy
So I don't know that issues for other than it's nice to know stuff. It's fun
I mean I took it as one of the best things about being alive
Learning stuff. I want to know everything. I'm still in awe of the world, honestly
I wish this wasn't about me because I'd be quizzing him. He'd get fed up. He'd go for fuck. Shut up
I'd be asking him questions all the time
And
If we turn to your your your work, but I mean fantasy. This is a question to both of you. I think what's interesting
Is that your work is?
Incredibly innovative. So if you take Selfish Gene or you take the God Delusion
It's it's a very it's a very innovative work and God Delusion in particular
I mean came out of a time when
Atheism wasn't a popular thing to be writing about and you went for it the office
I mean just phenomenal in particularly all of your work, but the office we just sort of focus on that. I
Where do those ideas come from? What what's the process behind?
Innovation in that well, it's very different because Richards dealing in
What's true about the universe and I'm making stuff up so so I'm I wouldn't put myself alongside
scientists
but for me, it's
As I get older all I want to be in art in comedy. Whatever is just more honest and look deeper
That's all I want to do. Now. That's all I try and do a my being
Is this is me. First of all, it's even done before that's what you you don't want to do
You want to keep going, you know, this is new
but I do want to I
am fascinated with honesty and bravery
And something as lowly as comedy I think is that is that is that the best thing to and not without?
consequence I I think people think that
Sometimes you're just trying to offend for the sake of it. That's too easy. That is too easy
And I know many people say um, oh, yeah any anyone can just be offensive?
Go on then
So that on arena and be if it just be offensive see oh, you know, I mean it's ridiculous thing to say
So if that's never the aim
but I am aware that some people will find everything I do offensive because everyone's different but that's no reason why you shouldn't
Shouldn't say it, you know
Is a good thing about freedom of speech you have the right to piss off lots of people at once
Is that your thoughts as well? And I think that the
To say that offends me as though that was somehow an argument yeah is what's really pernicious and
I think Stephen Fry said
You're offended well so fucking what yeah
Yeah, and then
Christopher Hitchens said slightly more moderately
You're offended I'm still waiting to hear your argument
But that's what it is. That's what I offer people have found out now. It's sort of tit-for-tat
and
At some some of it was a rebellion against the first wave of political correctness where they said well if you can't do that
I'm offended by that now what you know, and it was it was but it's another form of dogma
It's another form of shutting you down
putting the the
suffix phobia on the end of something's that means you can't discuss it anymore and
You've got to be very careful about that but particular in comedy
Most offence is taken when people mistake the subject of a joke with the target
They think that subject is a terrible contentious terrible thing to laugh about well never look at the joke though, you know
And they don't they go now you shouldn't joke about so-and-so I've been asked by journalists
Is there anything you won't joke about and I say is there anything you weren't right about go straight away. They assume a joke is
Making fun of the terrible situation or the the victim or the and and and and I don't do that
I actually don't do that which and it's fine
If you do, I think humor is exempt from those things
But I still don't I still have a conscience when I and I try and make my jokes bulletproof
now, of course, you've got a make and bulletproof for 10 years time, which is a
Which is a problem
And is it a question of the audience
Perceiving where it's coming from in a sense that you know, if you were racist and you do racist material clue
That's a very ugly thing
Yeah. No, I think that's the joke. It's work
I think the actual what I mean is I think people you can do a joke about race and without being racist and
I think that's I think people think that you mustn't do joke about race because they assume it might be they haven't looked it and
some people just they just it just scares people a little bit and
some people are offended on other people's perhaps you see people in the audience looking around thinking can I laugh or that
maybe I shouldn't and even why and I
That's why I did in to boost up Jiggs because I want to say we you can laugh at this
Look, here's an example of something you can laugh at and I give them examples and I I almost done
I defied them not to laugh
because
It's okay to laugh at bad things. It is. Ok to valpha bad things, but you're not setting out to offend
I'm not setting out to offend and I think the targets are my joke of valid. I can defend every joke I've ever made
I could even argue that every jerk I've ever made is politically correct, but that
That's another that's another man. But yeah, okay
not that that matters because there's a difference between being correct and being politically correct and and it's been mugged and changed and now it's
A different beast than it was, you know
But now I think you're allowed to joke about anything. It's it's what the joke actually is
and sticking with your your work for the moment if there was a weird parallel universe where you could only
Have written one book or only made one television series or tour film
Which one would you be most happy with I?
Would be most happy with the extended phenotype
No surprise, which is which is the one book I've written for a professional audience. Although I hope other people can read it as well
How interesting
Site, I thought you would you would go selfish gene or God Delusion. But oh you've written those as well just to remind you
I'm actually I admit pretty pleased with all my books here. I must admit
but
I I think though the one I
Think perhaps the one where I made the most original contribution is the extended phenotype. I was quite
agreeably surprised when you said you thought The God Delusion was
You know
Innovative, I'm not sure its innovative
Sorry, pull ropes and singing to me. I've gotta stop
It's my alarm clock reminding me to take my pills
Yeah, I love poor Rosie do you need to take your pills because we can get on if this is gonna get good
See I
Think the God Delusion was enormous Lee
I mean no one was doing books about atheism at that time
As far as I can remember know that well not quite true. Actually, Sam Harris was
but
And I think but but I mean there's really nothing in any of our books that that's not foreshadow didn't say Bertrand Russell
The why I'm not a Christian and so on
But then you mentioned The Selfish Gene
I think that that is more in innovative actually and I think the extended phenotype is more so, okay
Okay, I'd probably go with the Old Testament
Just because of how popular it was and how well it sold
Um, you did phenomenally well with that I'd be just think how rich I mean I could I do better marketing and I'd do better
deals
Yeah, then those goat herders did
I'll have a top US agent and yeah, I got a day young. I was listen to a Woody Allen routine
She's the vodka routine
he said always my rabbis terrible my rabbis tell um
He's giving us sermon. He forgot the Ten Commandments listed the Seven Dwarfs that
Was a great joke. Anyway, I digress so
if I didn't allow you to agree that your work was with the Old Testament if you weren't allowed to
Let's go which of your TV series or films would you go?
Well, I mean the office brings to mind again because it was the the first thing I'd try my hardest at and you know
So yeah
It really
Did you know the u.s. Office I'd use
Did you know from the the get-go with the office that you've got something very special there, um, yeah, I thought it was special
I thought it was different. I sort of came to it the big list of sort of don'ts more than do's because you know you
It was very late in life
I'd worked in an office for 10 years and I think I was like 38 39. So I knew this was a you know a
Second bite at the cherry, so I knew it had to be special and I was happy with that
I could walk away knowing that I've done something and is it true that when it was a exported to America?
They got a different cast and oh
Yeah, well
We sold the rights for them to do it. Why didn't they just take your version?
Because there was only 12 and I was too lazy to do any more
And there's a thing over there. They want that syndications
They want a hundred episodes of something and then the the money is exponential because it gets shown in
Rotation and you know, so and they did three hundred and something episodes where your episodes shown as well
yeah, but
It was on BBC America
And I think it was the it was the highest rated show on the channel and it got like a million and a half
So the US office was getting 10 million a week and the Superbowl episode got 25 million
Yes, so it's a it's a different beast. It's just a each episode
We made ours for about 120 grand by the end that there's were three million in episode. Yeah
Yeah, so it's just it's not even it's not even to be compared. I look at it
Like I sold my DNA but it's not my yeah, it's not my kidding
I was rather shocked to discover that one of david attenborough's really major series was
Redone with an American voice with Oprah Winfrey instead of David Attenborough. I thought that's utter heresy. I mean
but presumably
She just literally overdubbed the footage she didn't go and remake it or with different
No different. I think that Steve Carell as a spider
Ya know they just started again just because
Americans want things by Americans for Americans ours wouldn't have been big in the big middle bit
You know, it's it was and it was different. It was different. They did make it differently. It was more
optimistic
If it wasn't mine artistically, but it
Honestly it it was much more lucrative for me than my version, you know, so
Someone like someone on Twitter once sent me
The US version of the office is better than yours. How does that make you feel and I sent back fuckin rich
But that happens with TV, obviously Americans buy ideas and remake here it doesn't happen with books
I mean if someone even American publishers, we love God Delusion. We're gonna get Sam Harris to do it. That wouldn't know me
That's true. But what they do is change the title
Right. It's been irritating. Um
I've actually schooled mega Joon's
Either I've actually I've actually bought the same book twice. I didn't realize
On one occasion, I thought it you know on Amazon it says if you like so-and-so you will probably like so-and-so
Same book
Fantastic algorithms correct, isn't it if you like that
So, what would they change your titles did they I've never allowed it?
but many of my colleagues have had the title has changed, right and I find it unnecessary and
Really have nuisance it Matt Ridley says it's because the publishers like to feel important. It's the only thing they can do
And so I assumed it was marketing like they wouldn't get that title author. And yeah, they call it marketing
Yeah, they call him a heart. Yeah
So
We were chatting beforehand or second with some friends
and one of the the questions came up about comedy and the fact that we couldn't think of many if any
comedians
Who were religious?
Nothing for example
I'm just saying is do we think it's a thing that most stand-ups tend to be agnostic or atheist or I think so
I think that's because a lot of comedians
Are critical thinkers, I think a lot of them a science
They're intelligent
Well, I don't want to swell we ever. Yeah, but then, you know a lot of a lot of religious people are intelligence
but they've been they've been got an early age and it's like oh
yeah, I think they're braver some people there's still a thing of not saying I'm an atheist cuz they because people think that it's a
Bad thing to be, you know parents still
christen their kids because they think it's a respectable thing to do, you know, I
And I that that's sad, but I get it
There's a couple though there's a couple they don't put it in their act. I don't think a
Tim Vine is very devout
Yeah, yeah, but in general it they tend to be I think more
Skeptical or I think that's because they are they look at things from all angles and they come up with funny
ideas, and I'm
And I try I I look at the idea and I think that's that that's what's wrong and that's what Dogma does is that
people try and give ideas human rights so you leave them alone and
You you you you don't have to you can
Ridicule ideas without her in anyone and some people say that deserves a round of applause. Oh, thank you
And
And they and they found it shut some people up if they say that's her you know
you can be accused of
racism or anything if you if you
Criticize an idea and it's people jumping in the way of a bullet and saying why are you shooting at me? And
It comes back to Richard's point that
I'm offended
That's not an argument. It's not an argument. It's like me being offended if someone takes the mickey out of maths
it's like
Go on yeah fine. Yeah, dude, I mean
Because you can laugh at math it doesn't it doesn't affect maths it doesn't affect math
And
And I like asking this of all performers when you
You've done a lot of live work when you go onstage or before you onstage. Do you have any superstitious rituals that you carry out?
No
No, I'm not superstitious am I
Is this a trick? No that if I said yes, I'd go down a vault
Look at this footage and deny it no
Really? No. I have I probably have loads of
Sort of neuroses and OH CDs and things out but nothing based on superstition. It's some
Worrying that the audience in is that what it was the air conditioning like is it someone as there's squeaky door who's good?
No ice in the drinks someone's putting off. There's someone you know, and I have all those things but I have no superstitions
no, what did you mean superstitions or do you mean I mean some performers touchwood to wear certain socks or
Nothing. I wear the same clothes because I can't be bothered to think about what else to wear. But I
Don't do touchwood. Okay. Um, no, I don't
know
I
Don't know I don't know I just I burn some incense say a couple of prayers
That's it really
and in terms of changing
minds in terms of getting people to be more skeptical or rational or scientific both of you enormous ly
Influential but with with two different ways obviously yours using comedy a lot at the time and you're depending more on factual
Arguments, how does that play out is is that plain to the same audiences do you think is equally persuasive?
Well, I think which is more driven in his
What what do you think about changing minds what do you think I'm known to be not very good at it I
tend to just as he was saying earlier Ricky just I tend to just tell the truth and
That isn't always the right way to go about it marketing wouldn't approve
I suspect of just simply going out and telling the truth. I had a rather nice encounter with neil degrasse. Tyson, who?
who said something like
You just put it out there. You don't there's there's no act of
Persuasion. There's no act of seduction going on. You just you just seem to say here are the facts take it or leave it and
I had to say
I
Said I gratefully accept the rebuke
But I then went on to say I'm not the worst with that and I quoted
Alan Anderson, who was then the editor of
New Scientist
Who said I asked him what your policy is at New Scientist and he said our policy of New Scientist is science is interesting
And if you don't agree you can fuck off. Yeah
That's exactly yeah
Yeah, I don't I don't I do
Of things there there are probably worse things than people believing in all the different gods
It doesn't affect me because I'm because I'm free and liberated in' and safe and
But yeah
You can still be annoyed. It's ignorance that annoys me more than anything. Whatever it is. It's not I don't want to keep going after
Religion because that's only one form of this belligerent
Willful and and it's not even that it's you. You can't sort of help what you believe in. Most people aren't going around
Thinking this llinois people. I'm trying to oppress people's rights. They just think I
believe in God because that's how that's how my brain worked when I was little and now I I think is probably a God and
most religious people
Aren't crazy
It's something else again. It's something you know
and
We worry about the people who believe the bad bits in their holy book as well as the good bits
Most nice people who believe in God they can tell the difference
They do they know the nicer if they cherry pick and they know the nice bits from the bad bits
They don't do the bad bits and my point is if you know the bad bits from the good bits
You don't need the holy book, you know, you're already a moral person
And with afterlife which I think is phenomenal thank you, um
Clearly obviously you talk about a theism in there
But it's fundamentally about kindness and living a good life. I I think I think it is
I think the question is
When you when you lose the best thing about life, is it still worth living?
That's that that's what the question starts with this started with a high concept really imagine
You lost everything you wouldn't care about anything you do what you wanted. So that was the comedic
Where did that thought come from? I don't know. I don't know. I think it might have been
Sort of two years of
This thing that you've got to watch what you say
Like it, wasn't it? It wasn't to say the right thing
It was to say the thing that was least offensive to most people which is nonsense. We'd still be in the Middle Ages
We'd still be putting leeches down our pants, you know
Every every scientist committed heresy at some point every great invention every move forward in progress
was going against some sort of crazy dogma at some point and and
And it wasn't that there was more
Crazy mad nasty people around it was that they weren't ashamed of it anymore in the last few years, you know
In my day racist were ashamed
Not
so and
That and the backlash was some people saying oh you can't say anything and I just thought what imagine if you could
You just could you didn't care about the consequences?
You wouldn't didn't care about
offending anyone because that we do we we
Even myself and Richard who want to tell the truth
We do things we don't want to do all the time because just because we're worried about if we're mugged we hand over the cash
Because we don't want to get hurt
But imagine if you didn't care about living or dying that happens in afterlife. He thinks bring it on. I'm not scared anymore
So that was the idea if you weren't scared about consequence if you weren't scared about politeness if you weren't
You had nothing to lose and that was the seed of the idea really?
But then of course it becomes about kindness if it becomes becoming about people trying to save you
there's the comfort of strangers and the people who care and them and that's the thing about like
Grieving and depression the thing that came out of after I thought would shocked me
I've never had a reaction like it even the office. I've never had a reaction like it because it was an emotional reaction and
I found out that people come up to me all the time and they say oh I lost my mother
I lost my husband and you think oh, yeah, of course. Everyone's grieving. Everyone's grieving this year about something and
the older they get the more that happens and and
that was never an intention, but I think it I
Think people hadn't seen certainly a comedy, but they hadn't seen
Something that doubt with grief that man he was just he wanted to die
and then I had to make it funny so
Yeah, but also his character is dealing with grief not from a religious point of view at all
well, I wanted that I wanted a bit of a play on words with afterlife like he thought his life was over and
He doesn't really it doesn't even believe in an afterlife. He hasn't even got that comfort
so what's the point and
and I went down to sort of a nihilist road and I I
Wanted to bring him out to say well this to the point. We've still got a few years to enjoy everything else
That's the that was the sort of philosophical question
So to answer your original question, I think I am quite positive and I think I am quite optimistic
I'm an optimistic person. I think it'd be all right, you know, I think it would be all right
If there's a meteor heading towards Earth
Five billion people are pray to their God and a few hundred scientists to get Bruce Willis up there
And you talk about the impact I think again this is true of both of you
The impact on people's lives that if you say people after life that's has a resonance with people
well
I think people want to see things that they haven't seen before and I think this is what happens with
Marketing and people who are worried. I think everyone sets out with these good intentions
I'm going to do an
Uncompromised thing about something they're going to say that it's never been said before and then soon
someone says if you take out a couple of the swear words
we could put on a nine o'clock if you change that to so-and-so and we might and then soon they've
That's it's watered down and it's a you know
I remember once I was
One of my first things at channel 4
11 o'clock show and I did the sketch
it was about there was think about
people who claimed benefit when they didn't need it and I played this sort of
sort of bigoted crazy right-wing
journalist who it would always come down on the wrong side, right and
and he was saying my carrot was sort of saying then what you should do is right if if someone you know, um
Claims their death set off a fire alarm and see if they run out of the building, right?
So it was all that sort of stuff Channel four said can you change that to the blind because the Deaf are very militant
So their moral judgment was how many letters they'd have to write also
It doesn't work if he's blind because he can hear the fucking Bell. I
Wonder why they care about getting letters actually
I've often wondered that because that way people think that one
one camp now is worse than the worst now now people are terrified of one complaint and now you know how to rap splitting the
BBC, you know
I've
You know talked people down like
Executives for saying I'll write the letters. Sometimes they want to know I've explained the joke why it's okay and they're okay never complain
I've never had if I were to complain it's never been upheld, you know
because if you can if you're clever enough
You can it's not just putting stuff out there and trying to offend everyone it's you know
You can explain it. Some people just want to be heard. I
Were in my normal job people would complain I'd call them back and they go. Oh didn't think you'd call back. They were already happy
That you called them back
Some people want to be heard because they're never heard and then people are scared
I've been playing these days and there's no reason for it
but with with afterlife
How does it?
Feel to to get that feedback from people that it's much more emotional people saying that that touch me that has resonance. It's great
It's really good. I feel very proud of that because some
it's just I suppose it's just another little layer to it and
And I'd certainly rather that than I
Hated it. I was offended. You know, I don't I don't want people to hate things how to and be offended
I want them to enjoy it. You know, I'm a comedian
I'm not a politician or a you know, a religious leader or I put stuff out there cuz I think they'll enjoy it and
And pay me
And Richard up see your books have had enormous influence on on people's lives. How does that feel?
Well, I do very much appreciate getting letters from
people who say you've changed my life and I get a a fair number of those I
Get an enormous number who say that my books on evolution
Decided them to go into science at school and only this week I was seeing a doctor and he and
Australian doctor in the hospital and he said
At the end. I want to thank you The Selfish Gene was what made me take up
Biology and hence made me become a doctor. I love that. I mean that that's really a wonderful wonderful
And perhaps more that's more relevant to this meeting
The God Delusion
enormous numbers of letters from people who say you saved me from my religious upbringing
You you you you articulated something that I that I felt myself but could never quite find the words to just to say
Myself. I am no longer. I realize free from the shackles of
religion and and that I find again hugely gratifying there are many who say
There are many who write in great distress because they have lost their faith and are unable to
break the news to their parents or their spouse and
in particularly poignant are the
Clergy people who've there we've got a project in America called the clergy project which is designed to help
clergy people clergymen and clergy women who become atheists and can't escape because it's the only living they know and
So that's poignant
When they when they're they're stuck they can only earn their living by by going on preaching sermons and things like that. So the
clergy project
Does that and I like to think that maybe I help them as well people who who need to escape?
And find it very difficult. I
think that's I
I think that's really important and it comes back the point we made earlier
Ideas not having human rights because I think people think when we criticize religion we're criticizing people who are religious
Which is couldn't be further for the truth because we think they're victims too
Absolutely. I mean the word Islamophobia is all about that
It's a fear it people think that if you criticize Islam you're criticizing Muslims quite the contrary. They're the primary victims of Islam. Well,
We are we're almost out of time
But just before we finish up here just to turn our attention to the future you have amazing pieces of work
Carried out. What? What direction do you see yourself going in the future?
downhill
Just just seriously, it's just just awful
Yeah, I've got a bad back. I wake up. I just like my knees have gone I
Don't know. It's what's the point really? I just I
Want to be a wet. When when have we got the head in a jar?
That's when I that's where I'm on a skateboard me in a jar on a on a hoverboard
Whizzing round 200 years old right. I want to do more afterlife. I'm starting filming next week actually afterwards here
I'm gonna do follow-up to humanity next year with them super nature
So and then I don't know just get drunk
Thank you so much for your
Sharing insights know anybody isn't about you your work and that the offender being a crooked duck and
before I I think
My two guests properly there's some other things to be done
Which is Simon who is in charge of the this wonderful venue the Troxy here has given us the help the venue
Out of here. Oh
I
Just say I've knocked over a glass of water I'm not see wet myself on stage
Absolutely clear. No, okay. Um, we have a real rock and roll death if you electrocute yourself
Des pride and Chris French from the skeptic who have organized the event this evening
And the Center for inquiry and of course the Richard Dawkins foundation again for our helping to organize and sort out the events
But most of all my two wonderful guests it felt like a very special evening I think you'll agree and
Congratulations on the award lovely. Thank you very much does
the air
So we knew Richard Dawkins for fuck's sake
Richard will be signing books
afterwards, but I think you'll agree a
Fantastic and unique evening legend. Please give a huge round of applause for two wonderful guests two
amazing people Richard Dawkins Ricky debate
Thank you so much. Thank you
How did I save me tonight?
You
