[LS:] This is Linda Shelton and I’m interviewing
Ken and Ardell Noyes in their home in Lyman,
Utah and it’s June 11, 2016.
And now we’ll start.
That’ll be for the transcribers to have.
So anything you’d like to talk about?
Were you both born in Wayne County?
[AN:] Um-hm.
[KN:] Yes, I—well, actually no.
My parents were living in White Canyon, in
what I—I’m not sure what county that’s
in.
It’s now at the bottom of Lake Powell.
[LS:] Oh my goodness.
[KN:] When I was born, there was a VCA, that
was Vanadium Corporation of America, mill
down there.
[LS:] Kind of a mining operation?
[KN:] Well, yeah, the mining was actually
going on, oh like up at what’s now called
the Happy Jack Mine.
There were several uranium mines in the area,
and they brought their ore down to that mill,
and it may have been from other areas.
[LS:] So it was a uranium mine.
[KN:] It was uranium and vanadium, yeah.
And my parents were living there.
And when it came time for me to come into
the world kicking and screaming, they had
to drive to Price.
[LS:] That is a long ways.
[KN:] That’s a long ways.
They crossed North Wash, as I recall my parents
telling me.
There were sixteen crossings of North Wash
to get up to what is now Highway 95.
[LS:] And was this like a dirt road they were
on?
[KN:] It was all dirt, yeah.
[AN:] It was all dirt clear to Green River,
wasn’t it?
[KN:] Oh yeah.
[LS:] Was she in labor at the time?
[KN:] Uh, no, it had been determined that—and
myself and all our siblings—my siblings,
were born cesarean section.
So they had to go up with enough time for
things to get set up for that.
And I was born in Price at the Carbon County
Hospital.
[LS:] Oh my goodness.
[KN:] And my parents lived there for a few
years, just how long, I’m not sure at this
point.
And then they left there and went to Durango,
Colorado for just a couple of years, and when
I was about five years old, they moved to
Hanksville and then that's where I was raised.
[LS:] Oh, were you?
[KN:] Yes, I was raised in Hanksville and
intent on staying there until Ardell changed
my mind.
[LS:] [laughs] Now how did your dad come to
this part of the country?
[KN:] Well okay, Dad was born in Victor, Utah,
outside of Wellington.
I think it was at the time called Desert Lakes,
I think, and um, my grandparents farmed there.
But at some point in time the water went bad.
Dad said the water went alkali.
[LS:] Oh, I see.
[KN:] And farming kind of died in that area.
And when he was, ah boy—I’m trying to
remember, I think he said nine years old—they
moved with teams of wagons from there to Hanksville,
and he was raised there and, except for just
a few short interludes, lived there the rest
of his life.
[LS:] Oh my goodness, how did he make his
living in Hanksville?
[KN:] Um—Dad worked construction and seismograph
and when I was about sixteen, he got on with
the state road and he stayed with the state
road department until he retired.
[LS:] How interesting!
[KN:] So, I’m almost a born-and-raised native
of Wayne County but not quite.
[laughs]
[LS:] Right, right you come pretty close!
That's amazing!
It’s so interesting to see, to hear how
people lived and how far they had to go for
things like medical care.
And how it was a struggle to make a living,
it often is so—now what about you Ardell,
what about your early life?
Were you born in Lyman?
[AN:] Um, well, I was born in Richfield, but
my family lived here in Lyman.
I grew up here.
[LS:] How nice.
[AN:] My four sets of great grandparents were
among the first settlers in the valley.
[LS:] What were their names?
[AN:] Chappell, Cook, Turner, and Allen.
[LS:] Mm okay, and they settled around Lyman?
They had farms?
[AN:] Lyman and this area, and then Fish Creek
Ranch below Teasdale.
[LS:] Oh I know of that, yes, oh that's amazing.
[KN:] The area just below Lyman used to be
called Jacksonville—
[AN:] Or East Loa.
[KN:] —or East Loa, yes, depending on—anyway.
[LS:] Okay, how interesting.
So you grew up around your grandparents—
[AN:] Um-hm.
[LS:] —and knew them.
[AN:] Only my first six years; my parents
were both the youngest of their large families
and so my grandparents didn’t live long
after I was here.
[LS:] But do you have memories of them.
[AN:] Um-hm.
Um-hm.
[LS:] And anything you’d like to share about
them?
Were they sheep ranchers?
What did they do for a living?
[AN:] Um, my Grandpa Turner, his wife died
when very young and so he had to go to work
for the larger ranchers.
So he spent his years out on the mountains
taking care of the sheep and other people
here took care of his kids.
[LS:] Wow.
Wow.
[AN:] My mom was eleven months old when her
mother died, so another lady that had been
helping my grandma took her and helped with
the boys.
And the boys—there are five boys—they
grew up kind of taking care of themselves
living with other people.
And all of them went to World War II along
with my dad, and his dad, so World War II
had a big influence.
[LS:] There seems to me—from people I’ve
interviewed—there's such a cohesive feeling
among the people in Wayne County, if someone
needs help people step in and help such as
when your grandfather lost his wife.
[AN:] Yeah.
[KN:] President Pace—Paul Pace—had a statement
he always made regarding Wayne County.
He says, “Wayne County is a hard place to
live, but it’s a good place to have trouble.”
[LS:] [laughs] That's very good, very good.
[KN:] Because just for that reason, you know,
if you’ve got trouble everybody’s willing
to pitch in and help you.
But it’s hard to make a living here.
[LS:] Yes, yes.
[KN:] We have six children and all of them
have, well, our youngest is on a mission in
Brazil right now, so it remains to be seen
what he’s going to do.
But all of them have chosen careers and they've
pursued them.
Well, three of them have their doctorate degrees
and—but they are all something that has
to be applied elsewhere.
There’s nothing for them to do in Wayne
County, and so they’re scattered hither
and yon.
[LS:] So what fields are they in?
[KN:] Our oldest son is a Doctor of Pharmacology.
Our second is an attorney, of course you know
Kennard.
[LS:] Uh huh!
[KN:] Uh huh, a doctor of jurist law, and
our third son just barely graduated as a doctor
of veterinarian medicine.
[LS:] Oh my goodness, all of them.
Those are great achievements.
[KN:] We think so; we’re proud of them [laughs].
[LS:] And now the new vet, where will he be
practicing?
[KN:] He works at a veterinary clinic, is
it in Provo or Springville?
[AN:] It’s in Provo.
[KN:] It’s in Provo.
We just moved, helped move them back here
a couple of weeks ago.
And right now he and our younger daughter
live just across the driveway from each other.
And she and her husband, they’re expecting
and so we’re excited about that.
And Ken and Christine are expecting—
[LS:] That’s what I’ve heard.
That’s awesome.
[KN:] —and we’re anxious about that so
Grandpa and Grandma will figure out the road
to Seattle.
[LS:] [laughs] Absolutely.
That’s a beautiful place to visit.
[KN:] It is, it is.
I spent a period of time there when I was
in the Navy; we commissioned our ship at the
Bremerton shipyards.
[LS:] Yes.
[KN:] And so I have some memories of Seattle,
of course it was mostly in the winter, so—but
it is a beautiful area.
[LS:] That is terrific, and what a different
environment.
With so much water there, a contrast to the
beautiful desert, it will be very different—I
hope you’ll get used to the rain.
Kennard will, though.
[KN:] Yeah, his wife is from there and so,
I think they’ll do fine.
[LS:] Well it sounds like your children have
a strong value for education.
How do you think that happened?
[AN:] [laughs] They didn’t want to be sheep
farmers.
[laughs]
[LS:] You worked them hard enough at manual
labor that they—[laughs]
[KN:] That's right.
[AN:] They all loved growing up this way,
though.
I think they all really loved it.
[KN:] Yeah.
[LS:] Yes, yes, but they do know how to work,
and be disciplined.
[KN:] Yes, and that served them well in their
chosen professions.
[AN:] And I think my husband especially likes
to read a lot, and they saw that, and they
would read and—
[LS:] That's a strong, strong skill to have,
that's great.
Now, Ardell, while you were growing up here—so
did you say your dad was a rancher?
[AN:] His father, you know, his father’s
father settled here and helped build the reservoirs
and the canals and cleared the land.
So it was my father’s dream to live right
here in Lyman, have his own farm, and raise
his family here.
And so World War II broke out while he was
at Snow College.
So he was drafted and marched with Patton’s
army across Germany and some miracles—just
that his life was preserved—and he came
back home and was called on a mission, went
and did that, then he came back home and he
was finally able to marry and raise his family
here.
[LS:] Where did he go on his mission?
[AN:] Texas, Dallas.
[LS:] Oh my goodness!
[KN:] It was called the Southern States at
the time wasn’t it?
It was 
a big area.
[LS:] Oh wow!
[AN:] Um-hm.
[LS:] Huge, and very challenging.
So how was it growing up, was he a sheep rancher?
[AN:] They had a few cattle and a few sheep
and land that they raised, they raised a lot
of alfalfa and grain.
[LS:] So what was it like growing up here?
[AN:] Oh I loved it!
You know, we could just go out in the fields
and chase the rabbits and climb the mountains
and you could go fishing.
Of course it was hard work and it was fun
to be with Dad when he was moving the cows
to a different place.
He had a dairy.
He bought a few cows and milked them by hand
until he could finally— one day he could
build a little dairy barn and buy electric
milkers.
He just kind of built it up a little at a
time.
[LS:] So he was a dairy man, and that means
very early mornings and work every day.
Very hard to schedule vacations.
[laughs]
[AN:] No vacations.
[laughs]
[KN:] Vacation was between milkings.
[LS:] Yes!
[AN:] A trip to Salt Lake was when the oldest
brother went on his mission and had to go
to the mission home or, you know, a fun outing
was a few hours in the middle of the day to
go up and go fishing.
But we didn’t mind it; we loved it.
[LS:] So you had lots of chores and learned
how to work also.
[AN:] Yeah.
[LS:] Wow, that's awesome.
[KN:] Best thing is she learned how to cook.
[LS:] Oh I bet, are you a pretty good cook?
[AN:] No! [laughs]
[KN:] She’s an excellent cook!
[LS:] That's terrific.
[KN:] And she taught herself how to be a baker.
[LS:] Oh wonderful, wonderful.
[AN:] An interesting thing though, is my great-grandfather
was the first sheriff in Wayne County, and
he was sent to round up the Robbers Roost
Gang if he could.
[LS:] Seriously!
[AN:] And his family (speaking about KN) lived
in Hanksville and helped the Robbers Roost
Gang, you know traded their horses, left food
for their horses and get a little gold.
So my grandfather rounded up Silvertip and
Blue John, his grandfather was like helping
them.
So when we got married there was probably
a little conversation.
[laughs]
[LS:] I’ll bet, well, what was your grandfather’s
name who was out in Hanksville?
[KN:] Hyrum.
[LS:] Hyrum Noyes, and so he, I understand
that a lot of people throughout the area would
help some of the outlaws.
[KN:] Yeah, well, you know, the Robbers Roost
is not many miles from Hanksville and, well
we need to back up a little bit.
The grandfather that this all took place—my
grandfather was Hyrum, but it was his father
Fredrick Franklin who—he was actually a
soldier for the Confederacy in the Civil War.
He was baptized in 1862.
[LS:] Into LDS?
[KN:] Um-hm.
And we don’t know anything about his conversion
story.
We have a little bit of history of after the
Civil War.
He went home and his family was gone, and
he was kind of a displaced person, and since
he had joined the Church he thought, “Well
I’m gonna go West and join the Saints.”
[LS:] Um-hm.
[KN:] And so he got a job on the railroad
and came into Salt Lake with the railroad.
[LS:] Terrific.
[KN:] And in Salt Lake, he met my great–grandmother,
Hannah Mariah Williams.
And, shortly after they were married, Brigham
Young called them and her parents, Gustavus
Williams and his wife.
[AN:] And you’ve talked to Carol and Dwight
Williams.
[LS:] Yes.
[AN:] That’s their family.
[LS:] Oh I didn’t know that!
[KN:] Yeah, we’re related.
[LS:] So those are Dwight’s—
[AN:] Probably
[KN:] That would be Dwight’s grandparents,
wouldn’t it?
[LS:] Oh my goodness, so they were called
to go down—
[KN:] To the Muddy in Nevada.
A mission, that’s all I’ve ever heard
it called, whether it had a different name
or not I don’t know.
Anyway, that settlement didn’t work out,
and so when they were released, um, they just
kind of became gypsies, so to speak.
And my grandfather Hyrum, in our family records,
it seemed like they had a child born in just
about every community they stayed at for a
little while.
[LS:] As they traveled through the West.
[KN:] Yeah, uh-mm, they were in Kanab and
I don’t know, a number of other places.
Anyway, they finally wound up settling on
a little farm.
They homesteaded a hundred and sixty acres
in Caineville, called Aldridge, and the foundation
of the old house is still there.
And it’s one of the favorite hangouts for
our family, they love to go down to great-grandpa’s
homestead.
And there's a story told, and I can’t verify
it as being absolutely fact—but it’s a
fun story.
That Great-Grandpa, they’d had trouble with
crop failures, and he was actually off in
Nevada looking for work in the silver mines.
And uh, Great-Grandma had received notice
that their mortgage was due and uh, the banker
and the sheriff were going to be there on
a given date and they either paid up or would
be evicted.
And the night before the sheriff was to arrive
there was a group—some say it was actually
Butch Cassidy himself—but they were part
of the Wild Bunch, showed up, and Grandma
would always feed them, well, my great-grandparents
would, and like we say—
[LS:] If you're here and you have trouble,
people help you.
[KN:] Yeah, and they were good for a little
bit of gold which was not something that was
too easy to come by.
And the following morning she fixed them breakfast;
they came in in the evening and just stayed
in the outbuildings and the following morning
she fixed them breakfast and they could tell
that she was troubled.
And so they asked her what was happening,
and she told them, and they said, “Well,
how much do you owe?”
And she told them that, and the one guy went
out and when he came back in, he had a bag
with gold in it—gold coins.
He says, “Pay off your mortgage, make sure
you get a receipt.”
[laughs] So when the banker and the sheriff
showed up—
[AN:] [laughs] I don’t know if it was my
great–grandpa, but—
[LS:] [laughs] Could’ve been!
[KN:] Probably, he would have been the one
that had jurisdiction in the area—um, Grandma
paid off her mortgage and the banker and the
sheriff headed back for Bicknell, and at a
crossing called Aldridge they were set upon
by the Wild Bunch, who relieved them of their
watches, their guns, their gold.
[laughs]
[LS:] Oh my goodness, that is a great story.
[KN:] We kind of think that it was Great-Grandpa
Chappell that coined the expression, “The
outlaws below the Reef”, because he figured
everybody below the Waterpocket Fold was an
outlaw.
And he wasn’t far wrong, [laughs] so we’ve
had a lot of fun with that.
He probably rolled over in his grave when
Ardell married an outlaw from below the Reef.
[laughs]
[LS:] What a fabulous legacy.
How fun.
[KN:] They were people of their time and they
did what we do, they did what they needed
to to survive.
They left there and went out to the San Rafael,
and I don’t know whether you’re familiar
with the San Rafael Ranch or not.
It’s between Hanksville and Green River.
And the ranch is still there and, uh, Great-grandfather
and his boys built at least one, maybe two
dams for water diversion for the people that
owned that ranch.
And then they went into Richfield for a while
or not Richfield, excuse me, Green River for
a while and I don’t know how long that lasted
or what became of it.
But they finally ended up in Victor and uh
my great-grandfather and grandmother are buried
there at the Victor cemetery.
And then from there back to Hanksville—and
my grandparents are buried in Hanksville as
is my father; my mother is still living.
[LS:] Oh, is she?
[KN:] Um-hm.
[LS:] Is she still in Hanksville?
[KN:] No.
She was originally from Snowmass, Colorado.
It’s just thirteen miles below Aspen.
Her parents came in, actually before she was
born, and purchased a farm on both sides of
the Roaring Fork River and eked out a living.
And of course eventually Aspen caught on,
took off, and they put in a trailer court
and did quite well in the latter part of their
life.
But that's where Mom was when she and Dad
met.
[LS:] So that was home.
[KN:] That was home—um-hm.
After they were married then of course they
moved to where dad’s work was and the rest
of that we’ve talked about.
[LS:] So she, in the latter part of her life,
wanted to go back where her roots are.
[KN:] Well, she went back up there because
her parents were in ill health—
[LS:] Oh I see.
[KN:] —and she and Dad were retired and
so she went back up to take care of them and
they have since both died.
But the property is still there, and she and
my younger brother are taking care of it.
[LS:] Oh good, good that's terrific.
[KN:] And she’s had— she’s getting old
but she’s still feisty; she’s still Mom.
[laughs]
[LS:] That's great.
Now would your ancestors have been in Caineville
at the time Ephraim Hanks and his son Walter
were there and they built that church or was
that maybe a different—
[KN:] Probably, but I can’t say for sure.
They were there when the cholera outbreak
killed so many people in Wayne County, and
I think at the time that was actually Paiute
County.
[LS:] Oh I didn’t know that.
About what year would that have been?
[KN:] I wish I could tell you.
[LS:] That’s okay, not a problem, but there
was a bad cholera outbreak?
[KN:] There was a bad cholera outbreak and
Grandpa’s one brother died of it and is
buried there at the Caineville Cemetery, as
is Ephraim Hanks.
[LS:] Yes.
[KN:] And um, yeah—I don’t know whether
that death had anything to do with them pulling
out of that area or not.
But my grandfather was the baby of the family,
and uh—
[LS:] Oh I see.
[KN:] —and um, he had an older brother,
Frank, who was kind of a little imp.
The Indians would come in and Grandpa and
Grandma’s attitude toward the Indians was
“We befriend the Indians and they’ll befriend
us”.
And so the Indians would come in and Grandma
and Grandpa would treat them well too.
They would always sleep out, just out in the
open and Uncle Frank said they would always
sleep with their feet toward their fire, because
it kept their feet warm.
And he, uh, slipped out at least once—probably
more than once—with a long stick and after
the Indians were asleep, he’d flip a coal
over against one of their feet and sit back
in the bushes and watch the Indian come alive.
And of course he thought he was being real
sneaky, and one day sometime after that he’d
wandered around and actually got lost.
And he didn’t know how to get back home
and he was setting on a rock crying his eyes
out—and this was the story he told on himself—and
he sobbed for a second and he looked up and
there was a horse standing there, looked up
a little higher and there was an Indian setting
on the horse looking at him.
And he wasn’t sure what was going to happen
next, then the Indian spoke to him and says,
“I know you, you’re the little rascal
that pushes the coal up against my feet.”
(all laugh)
[KN:] Uncle Frank was sure he was going to
be scalped right there, but the Indian picked
him up and put him on his horse and took him
home.
[LS:] How nice, that’s great.
[KN:] That’s one of our fun family stories.
[LS:] Terrific, amazing huh.
That is awesome, so you both went to Wayne
High School?
[AN:] Um-hm.
[LS:] Oh my goodness, were you in the same
class?
[KN:] Nope, nope.
[AN:] I was in ninth grade; he was a senior.
[LS:] So you probably weren't really friends
because—
[KN:] Oh, very much so.
[LS:] Were you friends?
[KN:] Her older brother was my best friend.
[LS:] Oh, that's great.
[KN:] And I used to go to their place to hang
around with him but that only lasted for a
day or two.
[LS:] [laughs] So did you date in high school?
[KN:] Our first date was my senior graduation
and she was too young to date.
And I knew it, but I wanted to take her.
And so before I asked her, I called her mother
and she said, “Well we have a family rule
that we can’t date till we’re sixteen.”
My heart sunk and she says, “but since it’s
you I think it would be okay.”
[LS:] Oh how sweet!
[KN:] And the um, the enemy boats wouldn’t
want to follow into the known minefield.
[LS:] What a choice!
Torpedo or a mine—
[KN:] It was an interesting–
[KN:] It was an interesting situation that,
we had mined the harbor, but because of the
rules of engagement we had to leave an alleyway
for ships to go in and out, I mean it was—
I know, I know, I know.
[LS:] That’s interesting isn’t it.
[KN:] There’s a lot about the Vietnam conflict
that—
[LS:] Oh yes, yes.
[KN:] —didn’t make sense then and still
doesn’t.
[LS:] Sure, sure.
[KN:] But anyway, he was successful.
He was able to—
[LS:] So you didn’t set off mines?
[KN:] No, he was able to avoid the mines;
we did some pretty, pretty interesting maneuvers.
[LS:] What did that feel like?
Were you—
[KN:] We didn’t know!
We didn’t know.
[LS:] You were not aware of all those—
[KN:] No.
[LS:] —intricate projects.
[KN:] No.
No, I was down in the engine room; I was a
machinist’s mate.
And my watch station was, actually, I got
to back that up, my watch station was on repair
locker five.
And it was to relieve the engine room if there
were casualties sustained in the engine room.
We didn’t know what was going on.
All we knew is we were at general quarters
and the ship was twisting and turning like
a snake.
[LS:] I’ll bet, yeah.
[KN:] After we got out and into clear water
and was making a high speed run out into the
gulf then the skipper came on the 1MC which
was the main communication speaker system
in the ship and gave us a brief explanation
at what had happened.
[LS:] Oh my goodness.
[KN:] And he told us we had earned our combat
action award, but it was never, it was never
awarded to us.
[LS:] Oh seriously!
[KN:] I’m serious.
[laughs]
[LS:] Ooh!
Wow.
[KN:] The only thing I can think of is the
political situation with the negotiations
and things that was going on, um they probably
didn’t want to acknowledge that it even
happened.
[LS:] I see.
[KN:] There was a lot of that.
[LS:] There is a lot of that, yes.
[KN:] It was like the fighter bomber pilots
that had to fly over missile sites being prepared
to shoot at them, but until they actually
shot at them, they couldn’t take them out,
you know.
[LS:] Mm hm, oh my goodness, how hard to deal
with.
It’s probably much better you didn’t know–
[KN:] Oh yeah, absolutely.
[LS:] —the details at the time, right?
[KN:] Yeah, yeah.
[LS:] But you were down there just wondering
what was going on and knew there was some
sort of general alert—
[KN:] Yeah.
[LS:] Oh gosh and so the torpedoes missed—
[KN:] Mm.
[LS:] How fortunate.
[KN:] Yeah, we thought so too.
[laughs]
[LS:] [laughs] Yes, yes.
Absolutely.
So how long were you in the Navy?
[KN:] I—total six years.
[LS:] Oh that’s a long time!
[KN:] Yeah.
Two of that was um reserve after four years
active duty.
[LS:] I see.
[KN:] And then I went and joined the National
Guard for four years.
[LS:] Oh.
Did—did you get activated?
[KN:] No.
[LS:] Good.
[KN:] No.
I was in the guard when the rescue attempt
for the hostages in Iran took place.
[LS:] Oh seriously?
[KN:] And that was an interesting time, but—
[LS:] And so the National Guard, how was that
connected with the rescue attempt—
[KN:] It wasn’t, it wasn’t, but—
[LS:] —but you just heard it because you
were in the military.
[KN:] We actually found out about it through
our officers before the full details were
made available on the news.
[LS:] Oh I see, I see.
[KN:] Because we were on drill when it all
came down.
[LS:] Oh my gosh.
Was it Air Force or Army that did that primarily,
I never, or was it a joint effort?
[KN:] I think it was kind of a joint situation,
but to be perfectly honest with you, I don’t
know.
[LS:] Right, right, I don’t remember, I
probably never knew the details, just that
it was a horrible—
[KN:] It was a mess.
[LS:] —series of—
[KN:] It was a mess.
[LS:] —accidents and—
[KN:] The big thing was and it’s, it was
the same thing as us going into Haiphong Harbor.
When you send, when you send American soldiers—sailors,
Airforce, Marines, whatever they are—into
harm’s way and then try to run the operation
from the White House or from Washington DC,
you’re screwing up.
If you're going to send the men to harm’s
way, let the officers on site deal with the
unexpected.
[LS:] Right, right.
[KN:] They’re trained and prepared, and,
anyway— But we see the same thing going
on now.
[LS:] Yeah absolutely, absolutely.
[KN:] You know—
[LS:] There’s always this sort of same scenario,
huh.
[KN:] Yeah, and these rules of engagement,
when you start putting rules of engagement
on that restrict our ability to defend ourselves—
[LS:] Mm.
[KN:] —um, if you’re going to throw those
kinds of rules on, don’t send the soldiers
in the first place.
[LS:] Yeah, right, right.
[KN:] Give them the mission and tell them
to get it done and the American soldier will
get it done.
[LS:] Right, yeah—
[KN:] So.
[LS:] Well, Ardell, what was it like for you
while he was in Vietnam?
[AN:] Well, it was frightening, yeah.
I tried to keep busy with school and things
but—
[LS:] And where were you going to sch— well
you were still in high school?
[AN:] High school, well, yeah—
[LS:] Oh my gosh.
[AN:] And then I went to Snow College—
[LS:] Wow, what year did you graduate from
high school?
[AN:] 1973.
[LS:] I see, and then you went to Snow.
And that would be very frightening to hear
everything in the news and know that he was
there.
[AN:] Yeah, he didn’t tell me very much
though.
[LS:] Yeah?
[AN:] Oh, I’m safe, I’m out here at sea.
[laughs]
[LS:] [laughs] Oh dear, and so when did you
see each other again?
[KN:] I’d come home on leave every chance
I got.
[LS:] Mm, that’s a long ways to come!
[KN:] Yeah, [laughs] but then I was released
from active duty in Ja—
[AN:] January ’75.
[KN:] 1975, that’s right.
[LS:] Oh, goodness.
[KN:] And, uh, came home and surprised her
with a ring.
[LS:] Oh seriously!
[KN:] I don’t think it was a surprise.
[laughs]
[LS:] So when did you get engaged officially
then?
[AN:] January.
[LS:] Was it in January?
[KN:] Yep.
[LS:] You didn’t wait very long.
[laughs]
[KN:] Nope.
[AN:] Two days after he got home.
(all laugh)
[KN:] Yes.
[LS:] Two days!?
[KN:] I said—
[AN:] Was it?
[KN:] —yeah, I said hi to Mom and Dad and
got in the car and headed for Ephraim.
[LS:] Oh fabulous!
Fabulous.
[KN:] I had the ring in my shirt pocket and
picked her up and we headed back toward Lyman,
and I was being sneaky, and we got, oh, far
enough toward Manti that
the temple was—
[LS:] Oh that’s wonderful! [laughs]
[KN:] —big and beautiful.
And I was thinking that we would drive up
to the temple, but I couldn’t wait.
[LS:] Just in the distance was ok.
[KN:] Yeah, I reached in my pocket and held
the ring out for her and stopped the car—
[LS:] Oh good.
[laughs]
[KN:] —right in the middle of the road—
[LS:] [laughing] Oh, no.
[KN:] —and she squealed and took the ring
and put it on and the truck driver that had
stopped behind us and was watching the whole
thing go down finally honked his horn and
got us going.
[laughs]
[LS:] Oh, how cute, how cute.
That’s great.
Was it a surprise, Ardell?
[AN:] I expected it, but I was surprised that
it was that soon—
[LS:] At that moment.
[AN:] —that day.
[LS:] Yeah.
[AN:] Yeah.
[LS:] Yeah, so it sounds like you probably
got pretty close through the letters as well
that—
[KN:] Oh, very much so.
[LS:] —you both knew that you wanted to
be married and that’s great, that is great.
And so when were you married?
[AN:] April 29th of that year.
[LS:] Of ’75.
Aw, that’s terrific.
[KN:] That was my birthday.
[LS:] Oh!
[KN:] She knew my memory wasn’t very good
and so—
[AN:] He doesn’t forget our anniversaries.
[LS:] Oh, that’s fabulous, that’s fabulous,
that’s good.
And lived in Lyman right away, or—
[KN:] No.
[LS:] Where’d you first live?
[KN:] We lived for—
[AN:] Seven and a half years.
[KN:] —seven and a half years in Hanksville.
[AN:] Yes, yes.
[KN:] And then—
[LS:] And what did you do there?
[KN:] I was in the uranium industry—
[LS:] There you go.
[KN:] —and—initially I was mining.
And then Energy Fuels Nuclear came into the
area, and they were looking for people to
help with exploration, and it required a certain
amount of scientific and mathematical skills
that I happened to be able to do.
And so I became a geological technician, is
what my title was, and I worked with them
for thirteen years.
[LS:] Oh goodness.
[KN:] And we lived in Hanksville for, like
she said, for seven and a half and then employment
transferred us to Arizona.
And actually the office was in Kanab, but
most the things we were doing were out on
the Arizona strip.
[LS:] Maybe Fredonia or down that area.
Oh wow.
[AN:] We lived in Fredonia—
[KN:] Our home was in Fredonia and we lived
in Fredonia—
[AN:] Seven and a half years.
[KN:] —seven and a half years.
[LS:] Oh, wow!
[KN:] Anyway, about two and a half years into
our stay there, wasn’t it?
When we bought the bishop’s house?
[AN:] Oh yeah.
[KN:] Our bishop, I was his ward clerk and
he was an educator and he left and went somewhere;
I don’t know—
[AN:] Venezuela.
[KN:] Venezuela.
[LS:] Oh wow.
[KN:] And they put their house up for sale,
and we had a couple of kids and the trailer
that we were staying in was a little cramped—
[LS:] Oh my goodness.
[KN:] —and so we thought, well hey we’ll
just buy that house and so we did.
[LS:] Wonderful.
[KN:] And we had only owned the house for
just a few months, and I was called to replace
him as bishop.
[LS:] Oh my, it was the house, huh?
[KN:] The one guy that I worked with, when
he found out about the call, he laughed and
he says, you’ll never be able to sell that
house!
[LS:] That’s true.
That was very young, how old were you when—
[KN:] I was—
[LS:] —you were called to be bishop?
[KN:] —Thirty-four.
[LS:] That’s a young bishop.
And how long did you serve?
[KN:] Four and a half years.
[LS:] That’s, that’s plenty with a young
family.
[KN:] Well, and my employment was such that
I was gone at least four days a week, and
so when I got back into town the rest of the
time was spent as bishop and—
[LS:] Wow!
[KN:] —I spent, just, you know, what time
I could with my family.
One of the guys I worked with, a contractor,
we picked him up at the head office and was,
was taking him to our place for dinner and
our second son Kennard was just a big chattery
boy at that time.
As we drove past the church, he tapped the
guy on his shoulder and he says, that’s
where my daddy lives.
[LS:] That’s great, that is funny.
[KN:] He figured when I wasn’t home, I must
be there because—
[LS:] Oh, and how was that for you, Ardell,
as a young mother?
[AN:] Well, I missed him, and I wished that
he could be home more, you know, but I was
busy with the kids and it was life so—
[LS:] That’s right.
[AN:] —that’s the way it was.
[LS:] That’s right, wow.
And, I’m sure that was a challenge.
What was the ward like?
Was it a young ward, a mix—
[KN:] No, it was an old established ward,
it was about four hundred and, four hundred
and sixty members.
Probably, like most wards, probably about
fifty percent were somewhat active.
[LS:] Right, right.
[KN:] And I had way good counselors and I
don’t know, I think, I think we did okay.
[LS:] Good, good.
But there’s always lots of challenges.
[KN:] Oh yeah, there’s lots of challenges.
And one of the interesting things is we were
only, what is it, thirty-five miles to Short
Creek, Colorado City.
[LS:] Oh seriously?
[KN:] Yeah, and part of our routine was, we
would open the building for our services and
then we would go through the restrooms and
clean out the literature that had been sneaked
in there from—
[LS:] Oh really?
[KN:] —from Colorado City.
[LS:] Trying to recruit people.
[KN:] Right, uh-hm.
[LS:] Oh, I didn’t know that.
[KN:] Kind of—kind of fun.
[LS:] Oh my goodness.
[KN:] Fun, funny.
I don’t know what you call that.
Interesting.
[LS:] Yes!
[AN:] Well your first counselor grew up—
[KN:] Yeah, that’s right.
[AN:] —in a polygamous family.
[LS:] Really.
[KN:] Yeah, he was raised in—down there
it’s just called Short Creek.
[LS:] Okay.
[KN:] He was raised out there until he was,
I think about fifteen or sixteen.
And he actually got to studying the scriptures
and got to asking questions that were deemed
inappropriate and he was invited to high tail
it.
[LS:] Oh my goodness.
[KN:] And he did and was contacted or got
in contact with the Church and was baptized
and raised his family right there in Fredonia.
[LS:] How hard, how hard.
[KN:] But he told me he had twenty-three brothers
and sisters.
[LS:] Oh my goodness.
And was he ever able to see his parents again?
[KN:] He could go back and visit his family
on occasion, but it was, he says it was really
tense.
[LS:] I would think so.
How difficult.
[KN:] He told me about one brother of his
that finally broke away from, and living somewhere
else in Utah, that became convinced of the
error, but he already had three wives.
[LS:] Whoa.
[KN:] He said that was the saddest thing,
Isaac always said that’s the saddest thing.
He loves those women and he loves his children
and he knows that what they’re doing isn’t
right—
[LS:] Oh.
[KN:] —but what do you do?
[LS:] What a hard choice, huh.
[KN:] Yeah.
[LS:] Do you leave your children—
[KN:] Yeah, you know.
[LS:] —you need to provide for them.
[KN:] Yeah.
[LS:] Oh I hadn’t ever encountered that
situation, so I hadn’t thought about that.
[KN:] Yeah, and he told me, he says, if I
want to know what the Church is doing or what
the brethren are saying he says all I need
do is call my brother because he follows them
religiously—
[LS:] Really.
[KN:] —but he still doesn’t know what
to do, I mean, he’s—
[LS:] Oh so he’s still in—
[KN:] —he’s between a rock and a hard
place.
[LS:] —so he’s still in the same situation.
[KN:] Uh-hm, yeah.
[LS:] That would be a hard choice, what a
heartbreak.
[KN:] Yeah.
[LS:] Hm.
[KN:] I often wondered, I often wondered if
I was a priesthood leader and he was seeking
counsel and direction what I would tell him.
But I’m glad, glad I haven’t faced that
one.
[LS:] Right, that would be a very hard choice.
[KN:] Yeah.
[LS:] Very hard.
I think I’ve got a cough drop, in here,
we’ll see So how long did you live in Fredonia?
[KN:] You’re the—
[AN:] It was about eight years.
[LS:] Wow, and then you came to Lyman?
[AN:] Um hm.
[LS:] That is great.
[KN:] Yeah, I was given the opportunity with
Energy Fuels—I guess you’d call it an
opportunity—I was working my crew out in
Winnemucca, Nevada.
And the head office called and told me when
I got back to Fredonia, to make sure I got
my passport up to date because they wanted
me to go to Venezuela and oversee an operation
down there for 120 days at a time, unaccompanied.
[LS:] Oh ho ho, that’s terrible!
[KN:] And then we were, our family was being
transferred to Denver, to the head office,
and we tried to put a happy face on it.
Ardell was pregnant with Leanna.
[LS:] Mm.
[AN:] Our fifth.
[LS:] Oh!
[KN:] And we went to Denver and looked at
homes, and we found a home we liked, and it
was in a wonderful neighborhood.
It was only a few blocks away from a high
school and—
[AN:] Which, by the way, is Columbine High
School.
[LS:] Oh, whoa!
[KN:] Yeah.
[LS:] Oh!
[KN:] Anyway, and we were going ahead and
our oldest, Albert, was just eleven years
old.
Ten, eleven.
Somewhere in that neighborhood, and we got
home from that and he came in on a Sunday
afternoon excited about something his primary
teacher had told him about the priesthood,
and he came to Dad to ask.
And I answered his question and it hit me
that if I went ahead with this, he was going
to have to ask somebody else those questions
because I wasn’t going to be there.
[LS:] Right.
[KN:] And that was, that was the thing that
tipped it for us.
[KN:] So we started looking for something
else to do, and of course we contacted our
parents, that’s what you do, and Grandpa
Kennard says, “Well, I got something you
can do," which I wasn’t really that interested
in, but as time went on we were kind of led
to feel like that’s what we should do and
so we wound up here.
[LS:] And that was sheep ranching.
[KN:] That was sheep ranching, dairy farming—
[LS:] So you really didn’t have experience
with that before.
[KN:] Nope, uh-uh.
My dad had a farm in Hanksville, but we just
raised feed and hogs and cattle—
[LS:] Uh-hm.
[KN:] —a few milk cows—that, just for
personal use.
[LS:] Right, right.
[KN:] But I hadn’t run into anything like
this.
[LS:] Yeah.
[KN:] And—
[LS:] What did you think of it at first?
[KN:] What am I doing here?
[LS:] What a change from the work you’d
been doing.
[KN:] Yep.
[LS:] Now you never had any adverse health
effects from uranium, you weren’t—
[KN:] No.
[LS:] —contacting it directly.
[KN:] Yes, but—
[LS:] Sometimes—
[KN:] —not over a long enough period of
time.
[LS:] Okay, you weren’t exposed dangerously.
[KN:] My actual times—time in the mines
was just a few years.
Once I shifted over to the exploration department,
we spent our time looking for the deposits—
[LS:] I see.
[KN:] —but we weren’t in production of
it so—
[LS:] Okay, you weren’t inhaling dust or
anything.
[KN:] No, uh-uh.
[LS:] Good, good.
[KN:] So we, uh, yeah.
[LS:] And so the sheep ranching was just a
huge change.
[KN:] Yeah.
But it was a good, you know it was good.
I think the Lord helped us.
How do I say this?
I think the Lord helped us in spite of ourselves.
[LS:] Uh-huh.
[KN:] I think this was an environment that
Ardell and I could raise our family in.
[LS:] Uh-hm.
[KN:] I think as I’ve looked back on it,
besides the fact that we would’ve had two
children in Columbine High School at the time.
I’m not sure we would’ve been equal to
raising our kids in the environment there
like we were here.
Here we had, you know, they had the grandparents
just down the road and there was always something
real for them to do.
[LS:] Right.
[KN:] It wasn’t make-work, it was real work;
it needed to be done.
[LS:] There’s a big difference there, huh.
[KN:] Yeah.
Several years after we were here I was coming
home from checking on the sheep out at what’s
called, uh, Antelope Spring, and I had my
two middle boys in the truck with me—I think
Albert was actually on his mission at the
time in the Philippines—and as we were coming
back toward the Forest Service boundary we
had to stop because there was a group of the
Aspen Achievement Academy at—
[LS:] Oh yes, mm hm.
[KN:] —okay, crossing the road and so we
stopped for them.
And of course those young people and my two
boys, they made eye contact at each other,
and when they got clear and we started off
I asked, “What do you think of those Aspen
kids, guys?” and I got the smart alecky
answers that I expected, you know.
[LS:] What did they say?
[KN:] I don’t remember now.
[LS:] Yep.
[KN:] I remember the final comment.
We got a mile or so down the road and I thought
the whole situation was over and done with,
and Kennard, our second son, he says, “I’ll
tell you one thing about those Aspen kids,
Dad,” and I said, “What’s that, pal?”
He said, “They didn’t get up in the morning
and go change sprinklers with their dad.”
[LS:] Oh, that’s great.
[KN:] And you know it was all worth it.
[LS:] That is great.
Yes, yes.
[AN:] As a teenager, he could say that.
[LS:] That’s fabulous, because there’s
so much between those lines, huh.
[KN:] Yeah.
[LS:] The bonds that were there and the values
that he was able to learn to adopt, oh that’s
wonderful.
[KN:] It’s been difficult and as my health
has deteriorated, I have a real aggressive
form of rheumatoid arthritis.
And I receive treatment through the veterans.
And I was out baling one night, and having
a pity party, you know, when you’re all
alone and it’s just you and your thoughts—
[LS:] And in a lot of pain.
[KN:] —go ahead, go ahead and have a pity
party, right?
Anyway, I was feeling sorry for me and thinking
of all the things I could have done if I’d
have chosen differently and wouldn’t have
to be doing the hard, physical work.
And I finally quit whining to myself long
enough that the spirit was able to get through
to me and the thought was impressed on my
mind, now this is—it said, “Your grandchildren
were born in the covenant”—
[LS:] Oh.
[KN:] —and I realized that while, yes, there
had been a price to pay for this lifestyle,
this life, the rewards have been far greater—
[LS:] That’s right.
[KN:] —and we will soon have ten grandchildren,
and that still holds true.
[LS:] Oh that’s wonderful.
[KN:] So.
[LS:] It’s a great blessing.
[AN:] The kids spent a lot of time just with
their dad, you know, helping with the animals
and with the farm work, just being with Dad
talking about whatever was on their minds.
When the question is in their minds, he was
there.
They could ask it and he gave them an honest
answer.
[LS:] That’s right.
And those opportunities wouldn’t have been
there—
[KN:] No.
[LS:] —with another situation, huh.
[KN:] No.
[LS:] Aw, that’s great.
[KN:] You know, even a local employment where,
like if I were working with the forest service
or something, the kids couldn’t have been
with me.
[LS:] Right.
[KN:] And our girls, we opened the bakery,
the one that’s in Royal’s Market.
[LS:] Oh good.
[KN:] We actually opened it in this building
right over here, that’s what we bought it
for.
[LS:] Oh my goodness.
[KN:] And so when our girls reached the point
where they wanted to work and earn a little
money, they could work with their mom at the
bakery.
[LS:] That’s great, that is great.
Now does this, is this still open or is—
[KN:] No, uh-uh.
[LS:] —or now you work out of Royal’s—
[KN:] Yeah.
[AN:] Right.
[LS:] —Grocery.
[KN:] When they, when Royal’s Market built
the market that’s there, they came over
and gave us the opportunity to move into there—
[LS:] Terrific!
[KN:] —and of course location is everything—
[LS:] Yes!
[KN:] —and so we did.
[LS:] Now, that means some early mornings
for both of you then.
[KN:] Just for her.
My job was to get her up and out of bed.
[LS:] How early do you start Ardell?
[AN:] Well for a while, I would go over there
at four o’clock, but then other women, you
know, wanted jobs and they kind of took the
early part so I, most of the time I was able
to get kids to school before I went.
[KN:] She’s done so well.
[LS:] That is terrific.
[KN:] She received lots of help.
Again, there was, there was things, just basically
walked in the door and said, “Here, we are,
we’re going to help you.”
[LS:] Ah.
[KN:] There was um, well, you tell them about
it.
The, the gentleman that had taught bakery?
[AN:] Oh.
They were just traveling through here, he
and his wife.
And just stopped by and bought a treat and
stayed and visited a while.
And I guess he had a really nice bakery in
New York?
Someplace back east.
And then moved down to Arizona to retire and
did a small bakery there.
He later sent me, a like that thick, a binder
full of recipes, and advice, and things.
[LS:] Really?
[AN:] He was just happy that someone was interested
in listening to him.
[LS:] How neat!
[AN:] He shared a lot of information.
Yeah.
[LS:] That’s great!
[AN:] Just a lot of help over the years.
All kinds of help.
[LS:] What kinds of things do you make?
[AN:] Breads, cakes, pies, cookies.
[LS:] Everything.
[AN:] Yeah.
[KN:] Everything.
[LS:] Wonderful.
That is great.
And that takes a lot of work.
And you have to be a good manager as well.
You have to take care of the financial end
of things and managing all of that.
the costs and prices and keep the profit margin.
Oh terrific.
[AN:] Um-hm.
[LS:] So you just learned all that as you
went along huh?
[AN:] Yeah.
[LS:] Oh my gosh.
That is amazing.
That is amazing.
Now, um, how has it been for you raising the
children?
Do you, you’ve already said you felt like
raising them in this environment was an advantage.
And were there challenges too?
[AN:] Yeah, but mostly I didn’t think of
them as a challenge until it was passed.
[LS:] Ah.
[AN:] You know, we just take each day and
do what needs to be done.
[LS:] Just do it, yeah.
And most of your kids felt okay about things,
as far as rules, the work?
[AN:] They were—
[KN:] Yeah.
[AN:] —they were really pleasant and happy
with life.
They, you know, they had enough being able
to ride horses, and, you know, swim in the
streams, and go fishing.
There was enough fun that it was okay.
And when they would do the really hard jobs
with the sheep or at the dairy or whatever,
Ken would just laugh with them, tell jokes
and they made it fun.
[KN:] Sing songs.
[LS:] [laughing]
[AN:] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[LS:] That is great, that is great.
[KN:] We were, we were blessed.
We never had what I would call a rebellious
child.
[LS:] Oh that is terrific, that is terrific.
[KN:] When evening came, they all wanted to
be home.
And they were each other’s best friends.
[AN:] And they liked music.
The boys kind of taught themselves to play
guitar.
And they like to do that together.
And they would invite friends over to the
back yard.
Or after the bakery was gone, they kind of
set up a little hang out.
[LS:] How nice!
[AN:] So we were really lucky.
God sent us good kids, because He knew we
couldn’t handle the rebellious kind.
[KN:] That’s right, that’s right.
[LS:] And I imagine there was some challenges
financially.
[AN:] Oh yeah.
[KN:] Oh, yeah, I’d say.
[LS:] Learning, that’s a large management
job too.
[AN:] Sometimes we had to get by with very
little—and the kids were fine with whatever
clothes that they could have.
At one point, one of my oldest daughter’s
friends introduced her to Silver Jeans.
Fifty-dollar jeans.
She loved them and wanted them.
And so she earned her money and knew that
two pair was what she had to do with for the
school year.
And she was fine with that.
[LS:] And that’s a good lesson, isn’t
it?
Having to earn the money and to know the requirements
and the restrictions.
[AN:] Right, yeah.
[LS:] Terrific.
Good, good lessons.
And we were mentioning before, Ardell, how
the Park maybe has affected your ranching
or operation of the family.
Anything there that comes to mind?
[AN:] Um—
[KN:] I don’t think it’s had that direct
an impact on our part of it.
It’s— it had an impact early on with those
that used public land to graze their cattle
on because they would trail the cattle from
here down to toward Hanksville, down to the
desert and back and forth.
And I think some of the original land users
that way—well I know they had, and they
may still have, if they chose to use it—the
right to trail the cattle through the Park.
But I think with the road the way it is now,
paved and nice, it’s actually more economical
to truck them.
So I don’t know how much of an impact, really,
the Park has had.
I think on our operations here, at Chappell
Farms, I don’t think it’s had that big
an impact.
[LS:] Now where do you graze your sheep?
[KN:] We no longer have the sheep.
[LS:] Oh, okay, what’s the story behind
that?
[KN:] We sold them a few years ago.
Well, for one, there’s four of us that primarily
run the operation and the other kids are just
like our kids, they grew up and they chose
professions.
And uh, Ardell’s one brother, Merrill, is
just younger than you, right?
His son is a podiatrist, a Doctor of Podiatry,
and uh, you know, all of them have chosen
wonderful professions.
[LS:] So there’s no reason to keep the ranch
to hand it on to kids or grandkids.
[KN:] Well, yeah, well, I don't know, the
sheep were kind of not a favorite.
And I don’t understand everything about
it.
That had kind of become an established thing
before we came on to the picture.
[LS:] Oh, okay.
[AN:] Well then, Ken and our boys mostly took
care of the sheep.
[LS:] How many head did you have?
[KN:] We had thirteen hundred.
[LS:] Oh that’s huge!
[KN:] It was a lot of work.
[LS:] And where did you graze them?
[KN:] Out on the Parker.
And then we had a pasture right on top of
Boulder Mountain, and we loved that.
[LS:] So would you go up there in the summers?
Who would stay with the sheep?
[KN:] We would hire a herder.
But there was always times when they’d have
to leave and that was when I and my boys,
or my oldest daughter, she—she loved it,
I mean to go up and spend time.
[LS:] Now what is The Parker?
[KN:] It’s just this area out here.
The Boulder— below the Boulder, these lower
foothills are called “The Parker.”
[LS:] Okay, is that public land?
[KN:] Yes, uh-huh.
[LS:] And so you had grazing—
[KN:] We had grazing rights on it.
BLM and a lot of it was Utah State trust lands.
And then when we got off of that we would
go onto the Forest Service.
[LS:] Great, and so that worked out pretty
well?
[KN:] Um-hm.
[LS:] And so then when did you sell the sheep?
[KN:] Oh my.
[AN:] About five years ago.
[KN:] Five or six years ago.
Yeah, my boys were grown and gone, and all
the other boys were grown and gone.
And the realization was is that we had four
old men that were trying to do more than we
could do, you know.
[LS:] So it was a relief.
Was it a sad thing too?
[KN:] Initially.
But it didn’t take long to realize, wow,
glad I don’t have to spend March and April
lambing.
[LS:] What’s involved with lambing?
[KN:] You got to be there with them as much
of the time as you can.
Usually you’re lambing when it’s still
quite cold and if you don’t get them in
and get them dried off, get a little milk
into them, they’ll die.
They die anyway.
Grandpa Chappell always said, “Sheep were
born to die.
If they close both eyes at the same time,
they’re dead.”
[LS:] Oh gosh.
[KN:] And it was almost that bad.
[AN:] A ewe isn’t just naturally—
[KN:] Maternal.
[AN:] —prone to take care of her babies.
They kind of have to put her in a little pen
by herself with her baby or babies for them
to have time—
[LS:] To learn to nurse and all those things.
And so you are right there with the herd.
[KN:] It’s long hours, that’s the biggest
thing.
It’s not that hard.
But it’s long hours.
And it’s frustrating hours.
[AN:] It’s cold.
[LS:] Sleep deprivation.
[KN:] And it’s cold.
Yeah.
And so, you know, you miss it.
But, then after a while you realize that,
dang, this is nice!
[LS:] Right, right.
It was an adjustment.
A different lifestyle.
[KN:] Yeah, period of adjustment.
[LS:] So now, you still grow alfalfa, is that
right?
[KN:] Yes, we still have the dairy.
We have a three hundred cow dairy.
[LS:] Oh my gosh.
[KN:] And we raise, basically everything that
we feed them, except for the commodities that
you can’t raise here.
We can’t raise corn.
There’s the cotton seed and then the soy
mix, the commodity mix, that we have to have
custom made and brought in.
[LS:] So you feed all those things.
[KN:] Um-hm.
But we raise all the hay and raise a lot of
barley.
[LS:] That’s a huge operation, three hundred
dairy cows.
[KN:] It is.
It keeps us busy.
[LS:] And where do you send the milk then?
[KN:] Actually, we ship the milk all the way
to Logan.
[LS:] Oh really?
[KN:] Yeah, Gossner’s.
[LS:] Why all the way to Logan?
[KN:] That’s the only place that will buy
it.
We used to sell to Chappell Cheese just outside
of Loa, but they went under and closed down
and so.
[LS:] Why did that happen do you think?
[KN:] I’m, not entirely sure.
I think it was a variety of things.
[LS:] Okay.
And so there’s no place that will buy local
milk like Richfield or even Provo?
[KN:] No.
Well, apparently there is in Beaver, but Gossner’s
was already established with Chappell Cheese,
so when they closed down it was just kind
of a natural to ship to them; and they have
been really good to deal with, and real helpful.
So you know—if it ain’t broke don’t
fix it.
[LS:] Exactly!
Exactly!
Well that’s a huge operation just in itself.
And so you also led the dairyman’s life
with not many vacations.
[KN:] Yeah, well now it’s kind of fun with
the four of us.
Merrill and I primarily do the dairy and so
as long as we arrange with each other we can
take some time.
It didn’t used to be so bad but then somebody
went and called him as bishop.
[AN:] But he had a turn as Stake President.
So they’re switched.
[LS:] And there again, those are huge jobs.
[KN:] But we feel that we are blessed as we
support and sustain each other in doing it.
[LS:] That’s great.
How nice.
So with this arrangement with the uncles,
there were lots of cousins that have strong
bonds as well, so what a wonderful place for
your children to grow.
How nice.
How nice.
And so you’re far enough from the Park that
you had your grazing areas when you needed
it.
[KN:] Right.
And it didn’t really impact, it didn't really
impact us.
There’s been continual concern with the
periodic attempts to control the water.
[LS:] Oh, I didn’t know about that.
[KN:] Yeah, that’s not been the Park.
But there’s the Wild and Scenic River Acts
and things like that, where the federal government
has been trying to take control of the water,
and those have been concerning.
Thus far it hasn’t caused any problems.
[LS:] Would that do something like take out
the reservoirs?
[KN:] It wouldn’t take out the reservoirs,
but they would decide that they own the water
and they would allocate it as they wanted
it done.
[LS:] And here water is—
[KN:] Water is everything.
Dirt’s not worth much without water.
[LS:] No, it’s not.
[laughs]
[KN:] Those kinds of things are a concern.
Then there’s the sage hen, and the prairie
dogs, you know—yeah.
[LS:] Because when it’s hard to make living
as it is, then anything that makes it harder
is going to be very difficult to deal with.
[AN:] And living here, we’ve, you know,
managed the range and the forests.
We use the land—and when other people environmentally
want to tell us how to do it a different way—they
don’t want us to kill any prairie dogs,
but they ruin our farms, you know.
And so we try to kill the prairie dogs, and
these other things, you know.
Let them live out in the hil[LS:] But we’ve
got to make a living here.
[LS:] Not in your alfalfa field.
[KN:] Right.
[AN:] Right, and so that is the bad part when
they want to tell us how to manage our land.
We can’t kill the beetles that kill the
forest.
So then our trees die, and they don’t let
us take care of that.
[KN:] Won’t let them be harvested.
I don’t know.
[LS:] Yeah, that’s difficult.
Um, I had heard from someone there was an
issue this spring about a gravel pit.
[KN:] Yeah.
[LS:] And what are the details about that?
[KN:] Well, so far as I know, the gravel pit
is on the bench on the Teasdale side of the
river.
And the main objection that I have heard is
it’ll create dust that may obscure the sky
in Capitol Reef.
And any windstorm kicks up dust.
I don’t know—there’s got to be common
sense in all of this.
People have still got to be able to live.
[LS:] Right, because this could offer jobs.
[KN:] Oh yeah, it absolutely does, it will.
[AN:] And then they bring up any little thing
to try to stop it.
Like, “Oh it’s going to stir up radioactive
material out of the ground.”
Or “It’s going to make us not be able
to see the stars at Capitol Reef.”
It won’t make that much difference.
[LS:] It doesn’t sound very viable.
[AN:] No, it’s not.
[KN:] In a lot of ways, it’s a lot like
Aspen became.
When I was a boy and first going into Aspen
to visit my grandparents, Aspen was just a
quaint little fun town to be in.
And then the ski industry kicked in, and then
the jet set discovered it and, “Gosh, you
know, we can get away from LA, and we can
get away from all of these places and go to
Aspen where everything is just so good.”
But then when they start gathering in there
they don’t want to share.
And they want it to become where they just
left.
[LS:] Sort of like the camel that comes in
the tent.
[KN:] Yeah, exactly.
[AN:] Their kind of shops.
Their kind of food and cafes.
[KN:] When my dad was still alive, he told
me he went into a shop there in Aspen.
I had a birthday coming up and he decided
that he was going to buy me a nice jacket.
And he went in and he found a jacket he really
liked.
But there was no price tag on it.
So he finally got the attention of one of
the sales guys on the floor and he said, “So,
how much is this jacket?”
He said the guy said, “If you have to ask,
you can’t afford it.”
[LS:] Oh no, that’s terrible!
[KN:] [laughs] Dad says, “You’re right!”
[LS:] Very wise.
Oh that’s terrible.
[KN:] But, um—
[AN:] Common people are not really welcome
in the shops in Aspen.
[KN:] It’s kind of the same way, not as
bad, in Torrey.
That’s where a lot of the move-ins have
been.
And I don’t want to sound like I’m against
all of them because there’s some really
good people.
And even the ones that are opposed to the
gravel pit are really good people.
But they have a different perspective.
You know, they’ve made their money; they’ve
made their life, and they don’t want anything
to upset their little idyllic setting.
But there is the rest of us who have to work
every day for what we’ve got.
And uh, something that offers employment—will
the gravel pit actually help us?
Probably not.
But it helps a lot of people who mean a lot
to us—
[LS:] You know a lot of the young families
that need support.
[KN:] —you know, and there are young people
that have come back and are working hard to
try to make it here, because they want to
raise their families here.
And we want them to be able to.
And they’ve got to have employment.
They haven’t gotten a retirement to live
on.
[LS:] Yeah, because it’s still hard to make
a living in Wayne County.
[KN:] It’s hard to live in Wayne County.
Exactly.
That hasn’t changed.
[LS:] But how lovely that you have been able
raise your family here and have a successful
experience.
And now to have these grandchildren to enjoy.
That’s wonderful.
[AN:] It’s a great place to live.
[LS:] Now does the word retirement mean anything?
Is that possible?
[laughs]
[KN:] Retirement and retread is a lot the
same when you’re a farmer.
[laughs]
[LS:] Right, right, it will just be a retreading.
[KN:] Retread and run again.
[laughing]
[LS:] Because those are big operations you
deal with.
[KN:] You know, I’d like to be able to stay
involved as long as I’m physically able.
[LS:] Where do you have to go for your medical
treatment?
[KN:] The George E. Wahlen VA Medical Center
is in Salt Lake.
My primary care provider is in Orem—
[LS:] Wow, that’s a long ways.
[KN:] —but there is a Veterans Choice Program
that helps with a lot of things.
Just basic medical needs can be met at local
facilities.
[LS:] So like Richfield?
[KN:] The VA will contract them to do it.
[LS:] Would that mean Richfield?
[KN:] Some of it, even here in Bicknell.
So they’ve been really good that way.
[LS:] Excellent, excellent.
[KN:] They get a lot of bad publicity and
there probably are some bad things that take
place.
[LS:] About what?
[KN:] The Veterans Administration.
When you consider the number of people they’re
taking care of— and my personal experience
with the VA has been positive.
[LS:] Oh I’m so glad.
That’s good.
Because it is an enormous operation.
[KN:] It’s an enormous operation, yeah.
[LS:] I’m so glad it’s going well.
And Ardell, are you enjoying good health?
[AN:] Yeah.
[LS:] You appear to.
That’s awesome.
[AN:] So far so good.
[LS:] That’s great.
Well, you two have been so wonderful to visit
with.
And is there anything else you would like
to mention or talk about?
I’m—
[KN:] Gee, I’ve talked about things that
I didn’t know I knew.
[laughter]
[LS:] Well that is great.
That is great.
You are so nice to come and give us your time.
Because I know you are very, very busy and
you’ve got your grandchildren.
So maybe we’ll conclude then, unless there
is anything else you’d like to mention.
[KN:] Thank you.
We appreciate it.
[LS:] Oh thank you.
This is terrific.
