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at oodaloop.com hello this is matt devost
the ceo of OODA and you are listening and
watching the OODAcast and today we have
bradley rotter with us
bradley's longtime investor uh
technologist and security expert also
kind of one of the early adopters in the
cryptocurrency space so
looking forward to having a lively
conversation on past technology trends
and emerging technology trends
uh and also kind of getting his input on
the state of the world so bradley why
don't you start by kind of giving us
your background
how did your career progress over the
years thank you matt
well i started out as a child i didn't
start
trading commodities until i was 16. i
grew up on a farm in iowa
after west point in the army race back
to chicago and
was one of the pioneers for a new asset
class being developed at the time called
financial futures kind of reminds me of
cryptocurrency everybody was dismissive
uh thought it was unnecessary i thought
trading
futures and derivatives on the largest
commodity of all
money was would be a big deal it uh
it turned out to be it exploded i was at
the right place at the right time i was
on the
the floor of the chicago mercantile
exchange and the floor of the chicago
board of trade
grown men yelling kicking screaming
shoving and spitting it was
fabulous um
as a as a result of some of those bets i
uh
i also pioneered another new asset class
called finance called hedge funds i
started
investing in hedge funds starting in
1982
and seeding some with venture capital
and starting in 1985.
came the conclusion that uh that that
open outcry was archaic and inefficient
i
uh i thought the floors would go away so
i
loaded up the truck and moved to the
west coast so i've been in san francisco
for the last 30 years uh in involved in
in
trading hedge funds and technology
investing
since uh since 9 11 i've been a
self-described impact investor in my
case
trying to impact the security of the
homeland because we have issues
so that's that's where i spend my time
as i
suit up in the morning and try to make
an impact
excellent you know with regards to the
early stage of hedge funds
what were some of the uh the criteria
that you were using to evaluate back
then because obviously the industry was
just emerging
uh what was kind of the thought process
around where you were deciding to deploy
capital
so i would look i would look for other
risk takers that were
that that had different styles in
different markets than
than what i was focused on i was
primarily primarily focused on the bond
market
so i i would take money out of my
account and give it to a guy that was
that was just trading grains or just
trading metals or just trading
oil uh in fact i was
uh now i think of it i was ray dalio's
first customer when he opened up
bridgewater
he had a fax service that was faxing out
trade ideas
and you'd call them up and have them
execute them for you
so i was trying to build a diversified
portfolio of non-correlated strategies
excellent and does that contribute to
kind of the approach you're taking today
with regards to
homeland defense type and investments as
well
yeah i think we've um we've obviously
entered a
a a new paradigm as you can see in the
background this is
uh this is my day 174
of self quarantine i saw the virus
very early from underground video coming
in from
wuhan from my cryptocurrency
knuckleheads
and i uh i quickly came to the
conclusion that this is not the flu
so do you think that driving the
investments that you're looking at right
now and what what types of technologies
or things are on your radar screen with
regards to
opportunities to address the risk that
exists
well i've been making uh my my most
favorite bet is it
is in quantum i staked a company called
entanglement inc which is boldly
building
a post digital computation center in
newport rhode island
bringing together uh super computers
the quantum machines neuromorphic
computing
photonic computing and trying to put
them all in one place it's
it's i describe it as kind of a modern
day
manhattan project except more important
the uh the chinese i believe have pulled
ahead of us in quantum
and artificial intelligence which and so
we've
we've got some catch up to do my uh my
objective as an investor is to multiply
quantum times a i my uh my investment
thesis is simple my
my quantum experts believe that the uh
that the the potential of quantum is
unlimited
uh that's probably true it's a billion
times
faster and capable of of computation
that that
that's hard for man to even grasp
clearly the potential of ai is unlimited
especially when we have
ai now developing a.i
so i think multiplying those two
together should
should uh should have interesting
results
we've entered and we've entered into a
new
a new chapter of evolution evolution is
is has been with us you know for 15
billion years but it moved relatively
slowly
when when man appeared they were able to
impact evolution which is
why we have saint bernards and
chihuahuas
those were created by man i think i
think now that the next
the next evolution is going to be far
swifter than
than than anybody can handle and and
um humans humans are going to have a
hard time coping with the evolution
that's that's
that's happening in the digital sphere
interesting yeah i've written about that
a lot myself personally just being able
to cope with exponential change and the
fact that the pace of change is
is rapidly increasing over time as well
you know one key debate in the quantum
field
is kind of the timeline for when we get
to you know where quantum actually has
an impact beyond
kind of the theoretical or kind of proof
of concept so
what's your take given that you're
actively investing i mean where do you
think we're going to reach the point
where we get
real contributions that are you know
could be exploited as a national
security risk
or could also be exploited for positive
benefit kind of where do you pitch that
timeline
you know i think it's happening right
now entanglement is
uh working on a on a fantastic project
with the army
that's that's centered around the govid
prop process they're able
using quantum computing can optimize
and predict the demand of of where test
kits will be needed and then how to get
the right amount of kids to the right
spot so it's like
it's like a traveling salesman problem
you know times a million
and the the interesting thing about
these machines is that
they can literally evaluate all the
possible paths at one time
and so that the results have been rather
extraordinary and the re
the results can can come in you know
five or six seconds it's quite fast
fascinating to watch
interesting and you think that's
outpacing the kind of just the human
intuition you know because my gut
instinct says well send them to florida
send them to arizona send them to
california
is there something that has come out of
that program that has been a little
counterintuitive that leads you to
believe the machines saw something that
humans would miss
well humans humans can miss things the
uh
i i've marveled my entire life that for
thousands of years man was absolutely
convinced the earth was flat
even though every night when he was
laying out at the campfire looking up
into the heavens
everything else was round
and so when everybody's convinced of one
thing it i
i like to kind of go the other way i
think we've got something coming that's
going to be worse than covet
and i really don't talk a lot about this
because it's
it's so out there but i believe that
we've entered a grand solar minimum
doesn't happen very often but it happens
all the time
the last grand solar minimum was in 1645
a period that's fondly remembered as the
little ice age
the growing regions changed almost
instantaneously
causing millions of of deaths in famine
so and pretty much everybody on the
planet is
is is convinced that we're that the
planet is warming i think
i think it would be interesting i think
they're going to be surprised
interesting and what is the you know not
being familiar with the concept kind of
what is the
the background behind it it's
fascinating
and you know the one one interesting
correlation of grand solar minimums
is is pandemic
um so the the effect is
is uh counter-intuitive if you if you go
outside now and look up at the sun which
i don't recommend you will see zero
sunspots on the face of the sun
it's been that way the preponderance of
the year
it was that way for almost 150 days
last year so the sun goes through cycles
as everything does
uh and there are cycles within cycles
within cycles
but when a grand solar minimum happens
the sun
quiets down it doesn't change
temperature that doesn't affect the
temperature of the earth
but the sun basically relaxes and as it
relaxes
the uh the magnetic force field that
shields our solar system from the cosmic
rays that are plowing in
also relaxes and so more cosmic rays
enter the solar system
more cosmic rays hit the earth's
atmosphere
as those cosmic rays are plowing through
the atmosphere
they ionize the molecules in the air
around which
clouds form and it's the cloud cover
that reflects the sun's rays
and lowers the temperature of the earth
and what sort of temperature lowering do
you expect i mean based on what happened
in the 1600s
yeah well in the range the thames river
froze over
so i mean the absolute change in
temperature
might only be a few degrees but the
problem is
is that the the summers start later and
end sooner and the growing regions
literally change overnight
so i'm using an indicator that nobody
else on the planet is using
the sun
it's fascinating so a comment that was
attributed to you that caught my eye
on social media was that we've entered
peak civilization can you
explain to me you know made it for a
great sound bite can you explain to me
kind of the
the nature behind the comment yeah i'm
hoping i hope i'm wrong on this one i've
been giving speeches
you know for the for for years called
investing at the peak of u.s
civilization
you know it's it seems like a bold call
but it isn't
they all peak and there's and there and
it's not just the greeks and the romans
and the
aztecs there have been thousands
of civilizations in various degrees and
they all they all peak it's just
it's part of nature i suppose
um the the apache was a grand
civilization in the southwest they
controlled it
i mean it was uh a substantial
a substantial civilization have you met
an apache lately
no no so
i'm i'm not being a cassandra it's
actually pretty goddamn cool to live
in the peak of civilization we're we're
immensely fortunate to have been able to
to experience this but i um
something has changed in our lifetime
that never really changed
very much before and that was the unit
of time
the unit of time has been compressed in
our lifetime thanks to
the internet and and telegram and
telephone and social media
one of the uh one of my favorite
speeches i gave in 2008 was called
one if by twitter two if by facebook
basically basically forecasting what i
what i thought might might occur is we
become interconnected
and people have a one-on-one or
one-to-many voice
so it's it's quite spectacular to uh
to watch that unfold spectacular and
also frightening at least my facebook
feed
i've been told i have the face for
twitter
though i just you know from my
perspective i'm interesting yes the
interaction has increased but it also
feels like the
polarization has also increased and the
ability to
be influenced right if you have a belief
there are any number of
entities out there some state sponsored
that are willing to reinforce
that belief for you with content that's
quite not quite above board so
i see and live that every day in my
facebook feed in particular just because
i have a pretty wide community of
friends
did you see scott adams tweet a week ago
i did not no he's the he's the uh the
originator of dilbert he said i was
thinking about having a statue
commissioned of me on a horse but i'm
thinking
this is not the time
i imagine that was a pretty polarizing
comment
i do want to talk a little bit about
cryptocurrency and bitcoin
i mean you and i had dinner in san
francisco i was like late 2011
early 2012 uh in which i described to
you that i had been mining some bitcoin
to learn about it to teach my students
at georgetown and you said hey you need
to hang on to that
it's going to be worth more than an
ounce of gold someday
uh and you know we're now at i don't
know what the current price is maybe 5.5
x an ounce of gold per bitcoin so
what what led you to kind of to see that
that was emerging from a cryptocurrency
digital currency perspective
uh and then where do you think that is
going in the future
i i got to think that um you know i've
been i've been involved in the metals
markets and
and fx and all kinds of currencies
my i've always had the belief that that
uh money would change and
that's coming to be the um
the invention of bitcoin satoshi
nakamoto whoever she is
uh really really
had an i think a a very important impact
on
on how money is going to change the uh
i began i was on actually my first
podcast was in
2013 with with a podcaster named michael
covell
and i made the insanely bold forecast
that bitcoin would be
the highest returning asset of your
lifetime
that was in 2013 and so far so good
um it's you know no one likes gold more
than me but
bitcoin actually has some superior
attributes
try carrying your gold across a border
and see what happens
and the the fact that this is this is
the the only currency that i know of and
i
study these kind of things it's the only
currency that can't be printed
and that's that's the most unique aspect
of it um
you know i was having this conversation
this morning with it with an old gold
trader and i told him
there is because of that limited supply
there's
there's enough bitcoin at this moment
that every millionaire could buy one
third of a bitcoin
so that limited supply uh is
is rather interesting and and uh will be
interesting for the price
the uh i mean there are risks you know
the the biggest risk that i worry about
and i was looking forward to talking
about this
is emp
electromagnetic pulse radiation
would not would not destroy any bitcoin
but it would destroy a lot of private
keys
right so that's that's something i think
about a lot
i have rotter's rule number 66 there's
never
ever been a weapon ever made that was
never ever used
so we're likely and
mark weatherford agrees with this
scenario but
we're likely to see an emp attack in
this country the most dangerous weapon
ever made
doesn't kill anybody i find that very
interesting to think about
yeah yeah it is interesting you know as
as you mentioned it's not
the the currency itself bitcoin doesn't
go away but the access
to the keys is what goes away and i
myself
i'm fascinated you know with the
different ways in which you can store
and transfer
cryptocurrency as well i may have the
open dimes or you can put it on a usb
key in fact i gave my kids each
for christmas a little miniature uh
zero halliburton briefcase with a
one ounce silver coin and then a hundred
dollars worth of bitcoin on an open dime
and i said i want you to track you know
over the course of your
lifetime which has more value over time
so
as an interesting experiment i started
paying my son his allowance
years ago in bitcoin son of a bitch is
rich now
i'm sure he's happy about that i even
have the finney phone you know with a
little cold storage vault in the back so
yeah well you might want to wrap those
in foil matt
yeah you know what i mean definitely no
one's thinking about an emp attack but
the uh
we're we're living in a tom clancy novel
at the moment anything could happen
this is true it's definitely true
excuse me so are there other
cryptocurrencies that are on your radar
screen
or just implementations of blockchain
technology that you're interested in
you know the uh the first the first
alternative currency i bought was in
2013. i was giving a talk on
on bitcoin and a young 14 year old came
up to the podium to chat me up he was
fascinating young man so we went out for
a drink in this case
diet coke and he said mr rotter you
should take a look at the maidsafe
network
i said i'll do that jeremy that night i
went home and started
looking into this project and a week
later i climbed on a plane to troon
scotland to meet the development team
made safe had developed a distributed
decentralized
peer-to-peer self-authenticating
self-managed network
that's run on math and logic and all of
them
all of the data is encrypted sharded
sent around to the other nodes and then
the map
of where your shards went is encrypted
again
it's a fascinating project turned out to
be a great investment
i've been i've been out of it for a long
time the project's still not live
um i was uh an early participant in
in a couple of unicorns one was uh
uh one was wan chain i'm
i'm heavily involved in a project called
cosmos
and and so some of the some of the
returns in this marketplace is
unlike any asset class that i've seen
cosmos is
is has been a 40x return in a couple of
years
the uh but it's moving really really
quickly
um because of the money involved this
this space attracted the finest minds
around the world that that were working
on
this project and and taking the taking
the gains of what they learned and
working on
other projects and so the analogy i use
it's kind of like having
a thousand golf foursomes playing
universal best ball
and so it has i it has immense
ramifications to supply chain
this the blockchain really represents
the uh
the first advancement in accounting
theory in 200 years
since double entry accounting this is
triple entry accounting
and so i've long said that if i'm right
about cryptocurrency
banks will become as plentiful and as
useful as
blockbuster video stores i'm pretty sure
i'm right on that
the um one of the most interesting
projects that i'm
a seed investor in is a firm called ipwe
which is putting the world's
intellectual property system
on the blockchain signing up countries
at a time
if you could if you can get a patent on
a blockchain you can do things more
easily that were really hard to do
before you can license it you can lease
it you can hypothecate it
you can buy or sell it you can build
portfolios
so i think i think that that probably
permits
the the rise of of a new asset class and
intellectual property
we've always thought about it for years
but nobody's done it and
this company has great potential i
believe interesting so it would be on
the blockchain and you could almost you
could use that to define the rules i
mean you could almost have it be
a tree off uh where the inventor could
seek some of the reward associated with
the patent by distributing it via the
blockchain and
having the the linkage to the
originating ip
is that kind of the model there exactly
okay
and they've they of course have
artificial intelligence involved they
spend a ton of money building this model
but the intel the
ai can actually look look at the entire
framework of a
of a of a pool of patents and figure and
evaluate them
which means you could price them and
allow
a allowed borrowing against intellectual
property that's now stranded on
companies balance sheets as intangibles
so they'll be able to evaluate and
lend against that that's interesting the
ai can
can look at a portfolio and see where
the holes are of what's missing
i would love for ai to just go and find
the applicable
licensees for my patent because i mean
that's the part that is so labor
intensive right is to understand
that's who might be using the technology
in your patent that you could initiate a
dialogue with or even automate the
process
that's what they're doing i've always
said i could use a little artificial
intelligence
so you mentioned we're kind of living in
a uh a tom clancy novel i like that
analogy you know i've read every book
that
clancy wrote including the continuation
of the series you know
the after his death uh interesting times
if you were you know an entrepreneur
trying to navigate
a company through today's times kind of
what leadership lessons from your career
do you think you would
would apply to the advice you'd give to
that person
well it's it's it's easier said than
done but this is a good time to kind of
appear
over the horizon if that's if that's
possible
i'm i'm trying to peer over the horizon
for the post
digital world we think that that that
digital is is is the way the world's
going to work but with
with quantum and neuromorphic
computation and so forth
i think there's a new chapter coming
which is which is going to make
everything uh
move quickly um it's it's going to
if we're if we're indeed at the peak of
civilization that's
that's going to make everything a little
a little more tricky
my favorite quote in history is is a
quote from lennon
not john lennon said
there are decades in which nothing
happens
and there are weeks in which decades
happen
i think that was june
i've yeah it stole that quote from you
multiple times for my newsletter and
other
sources online so
you know i first encountered it there um
so what uh sources do you rely on to
kind of inform your perspective on the
world you know what are
what do you consume to to make you smart
besides your email is there anything out
there that stands out
or even any books that you're currently
reading that you'd highlight for
folks listening or watching
you know i spent a lot of time trying to
to
to figure out the development in the
blockchain space it's just
it's moving so quickly it's it's hard to
keep up
obviously uh a good website for
that i enjoy is called zero hedge have
you looked at that
yep so that's a daily that's a daily
stop
um if i ever get through my inbox
it allows me to do a little bit of
reading but that's hard to do these days
i think i think fundamentally we've
changed um
maybe the order in which human
interaction occurs
so when you and i met we had a beer then
we met for a steak
and got to know each other and and once
we got to know each other we felt
comfortable
having a video call right i think we're
gonna flip that on their heads
i'm not gonna go meet anybody until i've
had one or two zooms with them to figure
out whether or not they're a knucklehead
it's true the the cost obviously is a
lot lower if you can just be in your
office and dial into somebody than
having to go commit to meeting them in
person and obviously the risks are lower
right now
the risks are lower and the risks are
not just viral
that you know if you if you happen to be
in la on the day when there's
when there's mass rioting uh
you're going to miss your flight to the
airport
one of my partners in new york lived in
down in the greenwich village the night
that
uh the greenwich village was attacked
and and
it was it was surreal they uh
the masses broke every window uh looted
every store on his street
for trying to trying to light his
building on fire
it was set so we're we're in a clancy
novel
i was talking to a friend of mine in
seattle who went by the uh
the occupied zone i said what was it
like
he goes brad it was surreal it was it
was
it was like something out of a movie it
was dystopian
violent but with really really good
coffee
something out of uh at a blade runner
right like it's
you don't want to live in that world but
i've always wanted to
eat the noodles and drink the whiskey
right i mean that was the
always the kicker and blade runner uh
you know one challenge that
i hear from people especially given the
fact that we can't be traveling or you
know can't be attending events
is how to expand the network and meet
new people say like
how are you expanding your network how
are you figuring out those people that
are worthwhile
to have the initial zoom calls with are
those referrals coming in from other
folks or kind of how is that working out
for you
uh i'm not really trying to uh to to to
expand the
the network too much i'm trying to to
keep up with the
the network already assembled i've had
um i've had 35
friends come down with coven and have
three deaths
wow so this is not the flu i'm
recommending people
not get this we don't we don't know what
it is yet
we it's it we originally thought it
it it primarily impacted the lung system
but it's
it's impacting the brain the central
nervous system
blood system and a lot of uh issues
associated with the
dynamics of blood work um
and having clots et cetera
yeah so i'm spending a lot of time
trying to keep up on that there's a
really
good resource called peak prosperity
that i've been to
the that it's been in my living room
every night since
174 days it's called peak prosperity and
it's a
it's a great daily brief on what's going
on with covet i recommend it to
everybody
interesting just search on that term
people will be able to locate it
yeah fascinating
any other topics that are the top of
mind for you you know by way of trends
that you're looking
at or things you want to cover before we
end the call
well i've been talking a lot about what
i call the uh
the war in cyber i fondly call it
web war one and it's a it's a
fascinating war to be involved with and
i am
the uh web war one is it's the first
it's the first war in history that
cannot end
there's no one to surrender there's no
flag or capital or general command staff
there's no one to surrender
also it's the first war in history
that we're all on the battlefield for
the wars
used to be over there somewhere and
most concerning it's the first war in
history that we're facing
thousands of adversaries thousands of
armies
nation states criminal gangs terrorist
organizations
pimply ass teenagers in the dorm room so
this is this is a war worth fighting
um i'm this i'm the seed investor in a
in a company called bolden that i that i
i'd like to introduce to you they're uh
america's only offensive cyber weapons
manufacturer
and it and as you know better than
anybody the uh
that war is has heated up in the last
few months
yeah it's an interesting one too i mean
before we pushed record on this call you
and i were talking a little bit about
the ooda loop and you know an
observation our friend jeff
moss had the founder of black cat and
defcon conferences was that
if you are a defender it becomes almost
impossible to close your ooda loop
because you don't know if the adversary
achieved their goal or if the attack is
over
whereas the attacker has that advantage
of understanding what they're going
after and what success is so
even if were a john boyd and you were in
a dog fight and you lost the dog fight
you closed your ooda loop right
you know the the losing of it was the
closure uh but in cyber defense we faced
this dynamic of really
not understanding uh adversary intent or
if they've
achieved their objective or if we've
thwarted the attack so
interesting dynamic there as well on
kind of the decision-making process on
offense versus defense and cyber war
that's a really good point
boy the the attacks in cyber make it
make it easy to rob a bank without the
the pesky getaway problem yeah
i've been i've been i'm being hunted my
uh
my cell phone was ported twice last year
by adversaries that's a even even though
i had anticipated that threat vector and
locked it down
they're able they have insiders inside
of att that will
accommodate their their needs it's quite
extraordinary
yeah i'm sure that's associated with
your involvement in the cryptocurrency
community right because they
realize that that cell phone number
might be the second factor
for some of the places where you might
have wallets stored online
etc so see a lot of folks in the
cryptocurrency space being targeted that
way
i also think you know the ones that are
known to have been very successful
are subject to physical threats as well
right
to get somebody to compel or kidnap or
or
able to uh get access to that private
key and thus transfer the wealth
associated with it
i used to say the most valuable data in
the world used to be in the pentagon
it's no longer case the the most
valuable data in the world is a bitcoin
private key
and they're and they're coming for them
i just want the first private key i'd be
i'd settle for that one
my my theory on uh on bitcoin i've been
on the record on this a couple of times
is that
uh it was invented by eric hughes i
don't know if you ever met eric but he
was one of the early cypherpunks
very involved in the digital cash
initiative and then kind of just
disappeared off the grid right the guy
wrote the original cypherpunk manifesto
uh just seems interesting to me that
he's you know disappeared from the scene
100
over a decade ago that's really
interesting we'll have to talk about
that yeah
i was i was having dinner with our
mutual friend bill crowell
who was the ex-deputy director of the
nsa we were having
dinner here in the silicon valley and at
dinner i accused
him and his team of being satoshi
nakamoto you know what his reaction was
he laughed nervously
so we don't know where he lives
the government invented the internet
they invented tour
would not you be disappointed had they
not had a hand in
this seemingly anonymous cryptocurrency
that really wasn't
i guess we will find out someday or
maybe we won't
i'm going to continue to hold for the
foreseeable future
you know it seems it's it's wild that
the
that the inventor of crypt of bitcoin
has remained anonymous i mean think
think of the uh
the internal pressure that there must be
inside him you know to
to to come out and and take credit for
such a thing
other people have tried but they've been
frauds
but uh it'll be interesting if
if she ever ever shows her face
so it will be interesting i agree i
think it was somebody who was absolutely
committed to the concept right and
didn't want to become
a celebrity and wanted to remain
anonymous so yeah
which is why i've always liked eric as
the potential creator just you know
somebody who's willing to write a
manifesto
about cryptography and be involved in
these initiatives
might be the person that has the
requisite to walk away from multiple
billions of dollars in value
yeah you know you've i'm sure you're
following this but uh the growth of
these stable coins
tether and usdc and so forth is
growing you know 100 million dollars a
day probably they're now
tether is now used for cross-border
transactions not just
not for cryptocurrency transactions but
transactions in general
yeah it's faster it's cheaper than swift
or the
the wire system so this
this phenomenon in in d5 reminds me of
what i went through while trading on
wall street i did
i did the first electronic trade on wall
street with uh
in the in the government bond market i
remember that because i almost got fired
now the and now the entirety of it is
almost
well it's all all a lot online and
electronic
and at points there are times when i
think the machines are in charge right
and especially saw that kind of
post shutdown in march you know and
talking to the traders that i knew they
said geez you know they're
very few humans that i'm trading with it
just seems to be that the algorithms are
running the market right now
i thought that was an interesting
observation yep
yeah you know the uh i've kind of been
to this rodeo before
one of one of the ways that i i talk
about
blockchain and and trading in wall
street is
it's abs i'm absolutely convinced that
that everything will be tokenized and
all securities digitized uh but
and so lots of people are working on
that and making great gains
but i've been to this rodeo before it's
i equate it to the decimalization
of wall street when i was trading bonds
for ef on wall street bonds were
quoted as a quarter bit at a half
the uh the bid ask spread on the 30-year
treasury was a half a point
nobody really wanted that to change but
they could not stop the
the march of digitization and when
things became
uh decimalized the lots of lots of the
profit lots of the spread went away
we're seeing that now in the in the
decentralized finance world
and it's uh you know i encourage your
listeners to really
spend some time looking at what's going
on in decentralized finance it's
it it's in the early days of replacing
the banking system it's a shadow banking
system right now
that has that has actually important
ramifications
good ramifications for the planet
for humans excellent
well on that note uh we'll close out
thank you so much for
joining us for OODAcast it was a great
conversation
good to see you again matt say hello to
mr gourley for me
will do thanks for listening to this
oodaloop production
for the latest analysis on cyber
security technology and global risks
please visit www.oodaloop.com
