hello everyone I'm Annelise Riles and I'm
the Executive Director of the
Northwestern Buffett Institute for
Global Affairs and the mission after
Northwestern Buffett is to bring
perspectives from across the disciplines
and around the world together to
creatively and courageously address the
greatest global challenges and at the
moment we collectively face an
astounding global challenge with the
novel coronavirus the crisis does make
us aware of our common humanity and our
global interconnectedness and although
we're all immersed in the crisis
management associated with caring for
our families and colleague constitutions
and communities we know that there is a
need for more expansive thinking about
what we're now facing so during this
trying time we are honored to host an
esteemed cultural anthropologist dr.
Adia Benton will speak to us about kovat
19 including what we know and what we
don't know about the viruses
transmission Adia is associate professor
of anthropology here at Northwestern
where she studies patterns of inequality
in the distribution of and politics of
care specifically during complex
humanitarian emergencies like our
current crisis first book HIV
exceptionalism development through
disease in Sierra Leone explores the
treatment of AIDS and is an exception
disease and assesses the recognition and
care that designation
takes away from other diseases in public
health challenges in poor countries
Aditi is also at work on projects about
the 2013 2015 Western West Africa Ebola
outbreak and wants to improve access to
quality surgical care so Adia will
address the roles of scientific and
public health expertise in collaborate
in calibrating recommendations at
various levels of government and she
will discuss different ways which we can
reframe our conversations about
approaches to flattening the curve as we
call it so dia thank you so much for
being here and we're all super excited
to hear what you have to say over to you
thanks Ana lean so as you can imagine
this has been a trying few days
including I have lots of kids some kids
upstairs so you might hear occasional
noise and it also meant that I didn't
get to put together the beautiful slides
that I wanted to put together including
one that had MC Hammer dancing - can't
touch this can't touch it I and so
hopefully we won't be touching our face
through faces throughout this thing
we'll be washing our hands so I think I
wanted to I want to start a brief
overview of this outbreak and hopefully
we'll start questions maybe 20 to 25
minutes in because I want to be able to
engage as you know it's difficult it as
it is using this medium but I'll start a
little bit with everyone I think already
knows or should know which is that roto
virus disease or kovin 19 which is named
that because it is a corona virus that
was discovered in 2019 the way we found
out about this was through a series of
cases that emerged in December of 2019
in Wuhan China of course scientists of
varying stripes have been able to trace
this back to at least as early as
November 2019 the putative source or
origin of this outbreak was a seafood
market but again that is also contested
because the people who sort of preceded
this what's known as the sort of biggest
cluster opening cluster of this outbreak
are people who were who had no contact
with the seafood market so fast forward
to we're in March so we've had something
like five to six months of this
spreading from on and rapidly to
multiple countries I think we're in a
100 I keep the dashboard for Johns
Hopkins oh and that's a really great
resource for people who are interesting
but 155 countries our nap have now had
infections so a lot of people usually
want to know how do I know if I have
this is that something people really
people could hold hands ready
um yay so some of the symptoms are or at
least the primary symptoms that we've
heard of our fever cough shortness of
breath so you're not seeing a lot of
runny noses you're not seeing all of
that something but it feels like the flu
it looks a lot like the flu what most
people are concerned about is that
they're they're sort of asymptomatic
transmission it is a droplet infection
which is to say it's not airborne it's
not to say that droplets do not move in
the air but it's not as easily
transmissible as something like measles
so it doesn't hang in the air in ways
that an airborne disease might so you
don't have to worry about it's sort of
lingering in the air for hours as you
might think about for measles it does
mean however that surfaces that are not
disinfected and cleaned are often the
way that people get this or very close
distance or proximity to a person who is
who has been infected increases your
risk of becoming the disease so that's
sort of like the sort of way to talk
about risk as many of you know and have
heard certain people who are at great
risk of becoming very sick from this
Disney's most people and that's like 70
to 80 percent of people might have
something like what's called a mild
infection which isn't to say that you
won't feel bad but it's to say that you
might not require hospitalization 15 to
20 percent might have experienced more
serious conditions in which
hospitalization looks like the
appropriate thing and they're saying
something like 5 percent and this is
looking at the whole range of cases
something like 5 percent of people might
end up in the ICU 1 percent and again
you're going to a lot of variation on
what a fatality rate is right now a
fatality rate is not something you can
definitively pin down in the middle of
an outbreak but you'll hear something
between 1 and 3 percent okay some of you
I'm trying to think this I'm just sort
of talking through all of the
the facts what we know most people so to
get back to this who gets very sick
people with underlying conditions
irrespective of age are very old people
so people who are 60 70 80 the mortality
and the seriousness or severity of the
disney's is of heightened likelihood at
those times we also you people I know
are also concerned about children
because we know that most of us who have
small children we also see them looking
pretty sick all the time including mine
he's had a runny nose for about six
months the the conventional wisdom
currently is that children are not
necessarily driving transmission as they
might in other situations but I would
suggest that we look at those data quite
cautiously because of how households are
structured so in other words a lot of
what a lot of transmission is actually
very much about close proximity and
therefore homes are where a lot of the
transmission is actually happening which
is to say you know you're in you're
close to people who are less than six
feet away from someone for more than 10
minutes I know many of you are
acknowledged that in your homes
you don't necessarily sanitize and
disinfect everything all the time and so
when you have these sort of close
interactions with people in your home
one of you gets six most of you get sick
you know when my kids come home sick I'm
often like oh I'm sure in three or four
days I will have what they have and
it'll hit me harder that's usually the
case so these are the kinds of questions
or conversations that we have to be
having about how we reduce the
transmission let's see I want to
actually pause on the household
transmission question because I think
this is actually where anthropology and
demography might also contribute so one
of the things you know I'm doing this
from home we're all doing this from home
at this point one of the things that
concerns me about shut down on this sort
of flattening the curve level is that we
are now so if any of us have become
infected in the past five to seven days
we're now coming home and we're kind of
localizing our infections um for those
of us who live in multi-generational
households it might mean that we have to
start thinking about how we isolate
ourselves from our loved ones it we have
to think about how our surfaces are like
how we interact with each other how do
you keep your four-year-old for example
or three-year-old from hugging and
kissing you all of the time these are
real questions and concerns and so
household structure I would think would
matter as much as what you're doing
outside of your home so these are things
I would love you know during Q&A if
people are interested in talking about
that more I'm happy to also address that
because you're hearing about social
distancing as the way that you're
supposed to be able to fight this at
home you need we need to be thinking
about what that actually means and
entails particularly for those of us who
have family members who are in and out
who have to actually continue to work
I'm married to a person who's an
essential worker who happens to know how
to run an ICU so how will that affect
our household dynamics I also happen to
be in a circle or network of friends who
have to drop kids off occasionally and
vice-versa so how is that going to how
do those social network questions
actually impinge upon this idea of
flattening the curve so these are the
things that I'm thinking about as an
anthropologist the other thing I'm
thinking about is so what becomes
essential many of the people that I
interact with on a daily basis are
hourly workers contract labor contract
laborers people who do not have the
ability do not have benefits do not have
the resources to carry on and to pay
their bills
when Donald Trump and his economic
advisory team put their plans together
how are we going to manage how are our
community members going to manage
I haven't voted yeah
I'm gonna vote today these are the
questions that I'm actually thinking
about I hope no one really asked me
about hand-washing but I'll just leave
that we know that wash your hands the
tests the that so one of the other
things that I'm concerned about so all
so I'm sure most people are have are
live in places where schools have been
closed and we're dealing with the
blowback of that in a bunch of different
ways um the city of Chicago has actually
been planning for this outbreak well
there's been an emergency preparedness
plan in the works for for a while I
think they actually did a scenario
exercise before well before this
outbreak happened and so they had
planned for the eventualities of closing
schools and you know and therefore can
distribute much they also probably took
a little bit longer than some people
would have liked to close down schools
that said I will come out as a person
who has questioned this decision for a
range of reasons and a lot of that has
to do with who provides care who offers
caregiving what happens when the school
is sort of a colonel or that we're the
beginning of or at least a central node
in in a community so what can it do and
what can be done through those with
respect to epidemics that said I'm also
happy that we're able to implement a
preparedness plan in a in a very quick
way and one that actually kind of links
up to broader programs we do not have
enough testing though and and that is a
federal problem that's a state problem
that's a county problem so I'm hoping
that someone will ask specifically about
that
I have a whole list of things here but I
really feel like I want to be able to
address people's questions so what did
what one thing the last thing I'll talk
about for now it's the question of
flattening the curve so there are two
things that we've been hearing this sort
of big messages that we've been getting
from the big messages that we've been
getting from our governments and I'm
using that loosely because I don't think
that the message actually has been
unified in all levels but one of the one
of the things that we've been hearing a
lot about is is social dissonant
distancing and flattening the curve and
so I'm assuming that most people know
what that means but I'm gonna talk about
what it means and then what or what
people whose use it mean and then what
that actually might mean for us as
people who are trying to kind of go
about our lives with some semblance of
normalcy I don't know if that's really
possible but flattening the curve is
what we've been when it's been sold and
so when we hear flattening the curve
what we're also hearing is what you're
trying to do is trying to kind of manage
the number of people who end up in the
hospital make sure that there aren't so
that so that we don't max out our
capacity to care for people who are
seriously ill and so what we're doing is
we're kind of trying to make sure that
rather than having that huge sort of
growth of disease we're gonna have it
sort of spread itself out so the
capacity can match need so in other
words when we limit our movement we're
limiting the spread and then it sort of
keeps us below hospital capacity that's
great but as we know so there are a lot
of things that I had that concerned me
about the curve so if you actually look
at what what are the x and y-axes what
do they mean
we mean number of infections and we have
that curve that is sort of and then
there's a hospital capacity which is
sort of a threshold that we're trying to
meet or stay below
and there's time as we're extending time
we're lowering infections and we're hope
and so in some ways what we're doing is
we're localizing our my question is how
do we think about that curve or in in
relation to region so in other words
there are some regions that have higher
numbers higher density of people
different kinds of household structures
you have different regions that are
underserved already right so what
happens if you live in a rural region
where all the hospitals consolidated and
moved what are you what what if you're
in a place that has high population
density high high relative to how high
rates of transmission amongst them and
so on so we have to think about like
what a flattened curve looks like in our
sort of specific space
it's something I'm still trying to work
through but I'm trying to think of it as
a social issue so as an anthropologist
like what does can we translate the
epidemiological and sort of clinical
concerns into ones that acknowledge the
social context in the political context
and the economic context in which we're
actually trying to do this collectively
bring dant change the shape of that
curve so I'll actually that's the way
I'm talking about reframing so I'm
wondering if now we can it's early for
questions but I'm wondering if we can
shift to them because I probably have
people probably have a lot to to ask
since it looks like they're about 600
people here I'm seeing some questions
having trouble
everyone this is the area of sports
associate director for research idea I
just wanted to to your private messaging
and you'll be able to see the questions
that I'm sending through to you there we
have one the first question is about
balancing the non kovat 19 health risks
of isolating our most vulnerable against
home at 19 propagation risk this is
someone who's departing in a few minutes
so I wanted to push that question to the
top right and that's that's actually
something that I have wondered about and
honestly if anyone's here looking for an
NSF rapid grant I mean this might be one
of them which is the I'm hoping that the
question is about or I'm reading the
score understanding this question to
mean what happens to everyone else who's
sick with other things people who have
chronic conditions for example so
diabetics people who are hypertensive
people who have heart disease whatever
it is so what happens when there are
other people who need hospitalization
for other things what happens when we
have are there people who are whose care
will be affected I have a colleague
who's actually she's not in the u.s.
she's in I think
Belgium right now and she's concerned
about one of the two but she's basically
the health care health system is quite
good but she's also concerned about what
happened she's pregnant 38 weeks
pregnant and has and is expected to
possibly have some less easy or more
complicated pregnancy so is this also
going to impact all is will kovat
actually affect or impact the kinds of
other forms of care that will obviously
be happening and my I guess for me
that's a question that I don't know if
we're at that at that level yet I think
I've heard from colleagues who work in
hospitals in New York and Boston that
they may be having some trouble if a lot
of people come in at once like what
other kinds
axé that you know especially at the ER
so what kinds of other emergencies or
urgent care issues can actually be
addressed when the hospitals are
reaching their capacity I think there
are other issues as well so people who
come in for a test through outpatient or
urgent care will that also affect who is
going to be who's going to be able to be
seen when they're telling you to stay
home if you're sick you know so there's
a whole lot of stuff that actually coded
maybe marginalizing other forms of care
I mean it may make it very difficult and
you saw this during the Ebola outbreak
so there are a lot of people who are
afraid to go to facilities because
they're afraid not only of becoming
infected with the thing that getting
infected with Ebola but also because
everyone sort of maxed out already I'm
handling those very intense very complex
cases many of our hospitals are equipped
to to handle sort of moderate
emergencies but I mean actually I'll
give one more example my father was
supposed to be hospitalized last year
for heart condition and he was in the he
actually was on his gurney in a hallway
in a private hospital with several other
patients for days he didn't even get it
get it and he didn't get a room so I'm
imagining what happens if kovat hits
that hospital on a normal day great idea
the next question is what is
fundamentally unique to this outbreak in
comparison to prior ones and that's
socially politically policy wise I'm not
so I would say in some ways it's in some
ways it's unique because it's new it's a
new disease it's one that we don't have
much precedent for and so we're still
learning I think in other ways it
reveals some of the existing rips in our
society
sort of our country but also sort of
globally in terms of how people move
from place to place the quality of care
that's possible the the fragility of our
economies particularly they when they're
they're becoming more casualized they
treated and casualized labor so in some
ways it's unique because we're dealing
with we're still trying to learn about
it we don't have vaccines we don't
necessarily have effective treatment and
we're not necessarily equipped to handle
this if it gets significantly worse in
that same vein we're also treating it
like it's exceptional and novel and so
we're we're suspending a lot of things
that we otherwise wouldn't suspend and
and this is part of you know the state
of emergency kind of thinking like so
we're exceptional izing a lot of things
you know people aren't expected to go to
work or which is you know a longer story
but we are also in this in this moment
where a lot of our leaders are and I I'd
say Trump fits into this but he's not
the only one who are ignorant about
about the social repercussions of the of
this outbreak and our response to it so
the response to it is actually producing
as much strife as the disease itself and
so I would say unique because it's a
unique disease and that it's new and
we're still trying to figure out how to
best address it exceptional exceptional
in our responds in the sense that we're
willing to suspend a lot and sacrifice a
lot to make sure that it doesn't spread
but what I think it's also doing is
revealing other a range of fault lines
related to the economy related to
politics related to the nature of work
related to how we interact and engage
socially so what does it mean to kind of
create
distance between us amongst ourselves
what does it mean to actually take a
break from work and lower our
expectations of the desire and the nests
of necessity of working hard every day
that's the thing we're also learning a
lot about our health system we're
learning a lot about public health and
that there isn't a bat signal and
there's no hero to save us and we need a
range of actors to be able to do their
jobs and it seems like we're not
appropriately or properly equipped in
ways that we should be idea there have
been a number of questions processing
the state of Illinois in comparison to
other locations around the country both
cities in the States so one piece is
know you mentioned you're going to vote
today and there's been debate about
whether Illinois should have canceled
the election like Ohio did do you think
it should have been cancelled is it safe
to go out and vote and you know in the
similar vein do you think Chicago or
Illinois I will employ no quarantine
like San Francisco so sort of just
thinking about regional variations here
this is interesting
um did Ohio really cancel I thought the
Supreme Court overturned that last night
is it did I freak did I miss that or no
um okay I'll just answer the question
because I do so civic duty it's the risk
I'm willing to take we also use paper
ballots so I think we're a little bit
like you know we don't have the screen
wiped down in Chicago at least so I'm
not worried but uh one of the things we
instituted it was early voting which I
think helped a lot of people we had
record number of people mailing in their
ballots in in in in Illinois so I think
that's going to be a big thing people
event that people have been working
shirring us that they're working to keep
those places clean i think the
democratic process at this point is
something that we should be very
invested
and I do worry about whether the disease
I'm wondering if we should if we should
have actually changed how we vote and
the duration for our be our duration of
a sort of election period but again this
is an exception this is something that's
somewhat exceptional we we have so as I
mentioned before and I just learned this
fairly recently Chicago started its
pandemic preparedness last year or at
least did a test of their Pepa demic
preparedness or emergency preparedness
plan the Public Health Department for
Chicago is actually run by a person who
used to be an epidemic intelligence
officer I don't know how many people do
that that seems that the city and the
state have actually been in better
coordination that with each other then
say with the federal government and I
think this is where the actual structure
and organization of our public health
system breaks down is we're getting very
mixed messages uncoordinated messages
and uncoordinated actual implementation
between at these different levels
I think that's both the strength of of
our decentralized model but also a
weakness because we can have this
incredible mismatch you know like we
have a sort of federal response and a
federal set of recommendations that may
or may not match up with the local
situation I believe that a lot of places
are under counting I believe that we
will I think we still have a lot to see
about how well these interventions
actually work I think we still don't
know how much these interventions will
actually be part of the problem I mean a
problem that may even be worse than the
disease itself I
one thing that I'm also concerned about
I mean Chicago may not actually be in
San Francisco's position for a range of
reasons some of which is how we're a
little bit more spread out we have a
little bit of a different kind of
geography and praten probably as
prepared public health system how we'll
deal with it but I what I have one thing
I also warned a few weeks ago was many
of our social rifts in other words the
racial class divides especially those
that we see in places like Chicago and
San Francisco Seattle will also reveal
some of the fault lines and care so and
the social safety nets that we have the
social supports that we have in place
people who are have been self-reliant or
reliant on a strong community network
may pull through this but we also have
to think about questions of like rent
control mortgages casualized labor
public transportation so on and so forth
I'm not sure if I answered that question
completely but I am concerned I was very
even very concerned when Oklahoma found
58 test to test members of the Oklahoma
City Thunder and the Utah Jazz but did
not necessary but we don't necessarily
have tests for people who are at risk
who are not millionaires who played
professional sports but that's another
story altogether we have had a number of
questions idea about sort of how this is
affecting our everyday lives you know
whether and how long to avoid visiting
elderly family members how we can help
people in our communities how we best
communicate the crisis to children you
know there are some about sort of
forecasting around how long we can
expect to self isolate some about what
we do as people who live in high-density
spaces in a city like Chicago or
Evanston
so give you that range of questions to
try and tackle
that's a lot well because I've obviously
been thinking about this too how long
are we I think two weeks was not two
weeks is not long enough if we're
thinking solely epidemiologically the
incubation period of the disease is Matt
you know max forty days or something
they say we don't even know so these are
the things we're still figuring out but
if a model a modeler would an infectious
disease modeler I assume given the ones
I've talked to would try to go okay so
how long how long would people have to
be sheltered in place to be able to stop
transmission all together it would be
we're we're beyond that like we can't do
that particularly with how easily I
would say how easily it's spread through
contact and also given the lack of
testing and the number of people who
just who are who have minimal sort of
mild mild disease or mild disease before
they while they're transmitting it so I
think it's weird this what we're what
we're facing is strict interventions
that emerge when other systems have
failed we are basically dealing with
what I think is the backlash of that
failure to really focus on Diagnostics
and really focus on getting to the root
of this very early on so that's that's
that but I think we're also dealing with
the sort of like problem of uncertainty
that trickles from although all the way
from the top all the way down which is
to say things we don't know about the
disease but also very hesitant somewhat
ignorant responses at the at the federal
level foolish even so I'm not sure
what's going to happen I have to be
honest but what I will say and I'm not
sure that two weeks is going to be
enough for much
unless it's just a buy time to figure
out deeper interventions so it seems
like we're getting better access to test
it seems like the national stockpile has
lots of ventilators and other materials
it seems like industry is ramping up
production I am a couple of friends who
work in like procurement and governments
and they say oh we're getting requests
for manufacturers to make more medical
equipment and more protective gear so
something is happening will it happen at
the scale that we need in the time that
we needed I don't know when it comes to
our elderly and and vulnerable and other
vulnerable members of our communities
you know this is the time when our
people who are skilled in community
organizing are people who are have the
means actually have to look out for each
other so if you you know if you know
people who are struggling because they
don't they don't have a lot of family or
friends nearby
if you know that there are people who
can't get their groceries or whatever
you know we hope that we could reach out
but I think there are also ways that we
need to kind of tap into some of the
resources that ostensibly our cities in
our states had been planning for using
the resources that they've been planning
to use under these conditions of
emergency so really understanding what
is available to us on because of this
emergency and how we can best distribute
those in ways that reflect or at least
are attentive to the vulnerabilities in
our community so I know that the city of
Chicago says that that was a part of
their preparedness plan it's why they
were able to kind of come out with a
package of interventions related to
school closures it's big it's one of the
reasons they're able to kind of advise
on those issues so many cities would
have a preparedness plan like that I
just saw a video with Mel Brooks and his
son he's talking to his
son through a glass door at the back of
the house and you know in sort of
communicating that way he drops off
groceries or whatever I think for a few
days once you realize that you're not
having symptoms or whatever maybe able
to kind of start or re-engage and have
those kinds of face-to-face interactions
with your people again you know I've
been thinking about taking my kids down
to see my parents and I do have to think
about my father's health and my mother's
things like that so we've been talking
about like what that would look like and
how we would limit exposures and things
like that I think that's just it we need
family plans and community plans as well
idea I want to think for a minute and
would love your thoughts as would many
about the international comparative
element here
you know obviously we're sort of
catching the tail end of this presumably
I don't know the mid mid range of it who
knows but it's it's not like were the
first ones in the United States to deal
with this problem and so there have been
some questions about approaching the
pandemic reactions the ways in which you
know South Korea has been so successful
in handling the outbreak you know what
do you sort of make of the different
responses and what are we what are we to
learn here so yeah we have South Korea
who've been sort of held up as a as a
really good model particularly because
they didn't do I think as formal a
lockdown as many of the other places
that were tough so Italy's you know if
we can't really you know they're a bunch
of places that we could be comparing
ourselves to right now and we're
probably a little bit more like Italy
and accept it ELISA demographically an
older population with love I was talking
to some demographers and I think you
know we talked about them not having
enough replacement so births and deaths
are not even so to speak
Singapore apparently did well you know
it's like one of those things where
you're like do you have to be an island
nation with an authoritarian leader to
be able to pull this off yes and no so
yes let's talk about South Korea one
thing that South Korea did that we did
not was we did not have rapid testing we
did not have immediate testing we and so
in that regard we failed there wasn't I
think I sort of committed a concerted
effort to equip people with the
materials that they needed or I'd say
the resources that they needed to be
able to follow directives about social
and mobility so in that regard I think
that's where we we failed and I believe
that that's one and they you know they
also have a very good health system that
that can handle the capacity you know
handle the capacity and they do a really
Singapore actually does a did a very
good job of explaining what it is that
they did as well which looked very
different from what South Korea did
we're trying to start to use some of the
techniques that South Korea used which I
know everyone talks about those
drive-through testing centers
unfortunately ours our the the story
that I heard from Trump in his address
is that when he declared the national
emergency was that we're getting it
through Target and Walmart or something
so it's sort of a corporatized response
which I guess is what you should expect
from a corporate president I'm hopeful
about those I think we also have other
concerns which is the extent to which
the emergency helps with regulatory
situations so in other words can we get
something through the FDA in time or can
it be exempted from a process there are
costs and benefits to that right so in
in some ways we lose some of the we lose
some of any state you know the safety
regulations we lose some of the benefits
so we're looking at vaccines that are
being rapidly produced and tested right
now we're looking at drugs that are
being repurposed for treatments and
things like that and so one of the
things that I'm concerned about is can
we ensure public safety without also
making us guinea pigs for a capitalist
experiment I know that sounds very
paranoid but it's something that I I
worry about because it did also happen
in West Africa right so what what are we
ascending to when we
for things to happen more quickly of
course there are many tests and many
other diagnostic modalities that are
being rolled out in South Korea in China
and Japan in Europe and we might if we
had actually used those and push those
through the regulatory process we might
have be in a different situation right
now I did it that question was about
what we so we would I think what we can
learn is and there's a pretty good
report from the WTO from China that we
could use some of their strategies while
also not using some of weird
surveillance the words guarantee and
strategies or punitive strategies I
think we can learn from South Korea in
the ways that people adapt communities
adapted but also the ways that the
government responded very quickly the
way that it rolled out the kinds of
technologies that enable interventions
and that enable kind non-punitive
interventions that's what I would say I
think we also need to be careful to look
at what it is that our states think what
our states actually do in how so how
they imagine emergency every state has a
different kind of state of emergency and
what powers are suspended under those
emergencies and they have very little to
tell us about what good can be done what
things that can be done that enable care
and solidarity in these moments on that
point
idea we've had a question about - can
you talk a little bit more about
authoritarianism and if and when this
crisis ends what do you think of the
possibility that governments and
militaries may not relinquish the power
that they've expended over their Nations
this is a very thorny topic um the other
day I was joking about how Agamben
Giorgio Agamben
Italian philosopher he had written about
the states of exception and how you know
governments suspend the rule of law to
be able to enact certain kinds of I'd
say implement certain kinds of laws
rules and so on that could be it
couldn't be damaging to a population
let's just put it that way he was
complaining that that was happening in
Italy a lot of other philosophers
disagreed and thought he was being a
little bit of a I don't know what's the
word hysterical which but one you know
people who study authoritarianism
anthropologists that particularly who
study authoritarianism are very worried
that the national emergency opens up
possibilities for Trump
so can you cancel an election can you
postpone an election do you have even
more sort of legit is the sir do certain
forms of force and violence achieve
greater legitimacy under the national
emergency so in other words can the
National Guard can the can sort of state
militaries and the Federals and and our
US military actually act against us and
against our interests Amida to uphold
the authoritarian rule that's a
possibility and so that's why I'm
actually urging people to think about
what did it what kinds of powers are
being granted under any kind of
emergency so my friends in New York when
they heard that New York in turn a state
of emergency which could mean
that boarders were going to be secured
they started to say well like so what if
I want to go to New Jersey or
Connecticut or Massachusetts or whatever
is that going to be patrolled what if I
get on a train that leaves the state
what does an emergency look like for
every state and how can and what
movements or mobilities are restricted
through this calling something a state
of emergency and then a week later we
see that they've created a containment
zone in New Rochelle you know again I
don't want to sound like a paranoiac but
it looks very suspicious amaura it feels
punitive when I believe that once these
people knew that they were sick and at
risk for transmitting to others they
were willing to shelter in place and
stay home and people were aware of that
sort of the contagious Ness of that
household so to speak so is the security
theater or is it something else like
what are we normalizing here I read
another piece about a person who had a
helicopter circling above and telling me
go back into the house after someone in
their household had been found sick to
be sick and so again these are really
spectacular instances of this emergency
but you want to think about again what
are your rights what are your
responsibilities what is the government
what can the government do under these
conditions you want them to be able to
do to be able to implement interventions
that are helpful and that make sure that
ensure that others don't get very sick
but you also want to make sure that
those powers don't just you know grow
blob-like
leaving you holding the holding the bag
and leaving us not you us so I you know
I encourage people to kind of become
familiar with and learn about what it is
that a national or state emergency or
City emergency means what it looks like
beyond the health consequences but then
because the health stuff is a very
small part of this idea we've had a
number of questions about your
particular area of expertise here which
is inequality during these humanitarian
and global health crises and so you know
I think many people are really concerned
as they should be about the ways that
this virus is going to further amplify
the effects of inequality and our most
vulnerable populations so this
particular attendee asks one do you have
any advice for how to help in the short
term and then what can we be thinking
about and doing in the longer term this
is great I've been trying to figure this
out myself because a lot of like I said
a lot of Wade workers self-employed
people self-employed people especially
will experience shots especially if
their work is meant to be done
face-to-face so you know I've been
I know people who train they train
athletes they train people who want to
stay fit and they need to be and that
you know can they do things online or
whatever but that you know that stuff is
it's ephemeral and so what I'm trying to
do myself is you know the people who I
know are getting paid hourly or half are
getting paid for doing face-to-face or
care work I'm trying to figure out ways
that I can help them personally that I
can't do that by myself I am but I think
we have a few bills that are going
through Congress right now that are
supposed to be helping develop I think
one just passed last night am I making
this up is it last night
I feel like this timeline is becoming
very big happened yesterday and it feels
like last week so you know I think at
this point we're actually going to have
you know instead of bailing out banks or
in addition to bailing out banks we need
to be asked holding our officials
accountable for how they're thinking
about helping people who are in this
position so that's that's one
inequality is manifest there are others
including so we're you know one of the
things that they're doing is like oh
we're talking about the cost of a test
and the cost of care those are again
spectacular in the sense that we know
that a lot of people won't actually have
to seek care we needed safety nets for
those people who have to be in the
hospital and who are admitted and all
that stuff but we actually have people
for whom the disease is the least of
their worries and so you know like I
said some cities say oh we have it we
have stuff for emergency Mia and we have
this but I don't think that we're we're
ready for something beyond three months
I think we probably need to start
thinking to about work the nature of
work and how we can make sure that
people are supported I'm I hate to be
the booth but when I hear think about
this I feel so overwhelmed because this
is actually one of the things that
worries me the most
which is the fact that the intervention
itself is causing the pain it's it's
going to and it's going to wreak havoc
and we're we're and I don't understand
how we're not bailing out families but
this is also maybe one of these things
where we need to look to other places as
a model is it are these other countries
that are instituting this kind of
extreme social distancing I'm so
quarantines isolation and so forth are
there strategies that they're using to
ensure that people are cared for this
might be another place where so instead
of just looking at like diagnostics and
Karen ELISA are there other models
available to us that we can sort of
think through as organizers as
communities and so on to kind of advance
this I do think that this is going to
take lots of people hanging their heads
together and less and in a grassroots
movement that's how I'm feeling right
now I go to bed thinking
this time we kept thinking about this
I'm probably getting like a corona so so
I probably at this point I'm kidding I
don't of course I can't get a test so
who knows that so but anyway this is
something that that actually is on my
mind and something that I hope that's
someone smarter than me can can help us
think through so you know we have a few
minutes left and there have been a
number of really excellent questions
that unfortunately we don't have time
for but I did want to sort of look to
the future and we have a couple of
questions in that space and one of the
key ones that we think about a lot of
Buffett is how do we think about what a
global solution looks like for something
like this global pandemic yeah and
that's a really I love that question
I've been thinking about it a lot one of
the ways I was thinking about it was
through sports and bear with me because
we have a few global events coming up I
found out this morning that they're
postponing the Euro 2020 to 2021 so it
doesn't have as catchy a name um and I
had tickets to see it in in Azerbaijan
which is one of these countries that
sort of ranked as like level 3 because
it borders countries that have severe
outbreaks and when I thought about it
and obviously have the Olympics in Tokyo
coming up and I think of those as
emblematic of why we actually need a
truly global response in the sense that
you know even if Japan gets their
numbers down even if Japan stops
transmission Japan is going to be
hosting millions of people who came for
this game from all over the world so
they're going to have you know so
whatever they think they did nationally
is not as is sort of like it's be it's
beside the point
right it is not it and the same thing
happened in Brazil and the same thing so
what what a global risk
means is we actually need nations that
trust in international or transnational
institutions global institutions and we
don't have that right now so you know
World Health Organization exists and has
existed since the end of World War two
for that reason but you know in the past
30 years or so it's its strength its
ability to act as a global institution I
think has waned it's sort of
transitioned from a place that has
aspirations to affect global thinking
around health to just an institution
that sits in a sort of weakened advisory
role so I would say it would be nice if
we could invest in global institutions
it would be nice if we could invest in
them and understand that our only our
relationships the things that link us
together are not simply trade relations
of trade not only relations of capital
and that's sort of I think unfortunately
that's sort of at the backbone of any
international health regulation which is
what are the relations of capital that
undergird the in the way that this this
these kinds of organizations function
one of the things that I me time ago
said this many years ago he said that
the UN is like the mother of all
bureaucracy because it it's like every
bureaucracy joins together and so when
you see the same kinds of hierarchies
that exist between nations within
nations and between nations so your
elites are sent to Geneva
your elites are your release and and
they're hierarchically organized in ways
that reflect power so I'm kind of
talking around the fact that we had we
have global institutions we probably
need to invest in them better but we
also need to reimagine them outside of
existing hierarchies we need to imagine
them as institutions of solidarity
and ones that in which the the entities
that make it up share a common cause and
health is one of those things it would
be lovely you know we're talking about
something like universal health care now
and I think we need to be start me going
back to these broader questions about
equity so fairness about we have to
really question how power functions and
operates not simply in the in the
countries that that comprise these
institutions but within the institutions
themselves in the interventions as
they're implemented I'm not sure how we
do this but there are other movements
that that are at work here so the
people's health movement for example try
to work against the logics the
capitalist logics of the World Health
Organization's so this week not so to
speak they do exist but I think I can
say world health is not really what they
do so great wonderful well well listen I
do we have to stop unfortunately but
you've given us so much to think about
serving up some really larger questions
here about how to think about the nature
work what are the consequences of
well-meaning policies for rising
authoritarianism how do we reimagine
equity and much more and I want to thank
you but also everyone for joining us
today we were over 500 strong and this
will be a series of webinars offering
new and more expansive perspectives on
the current crisis so please stay in
touch with us on twitter at buffett inst
and sign up for our mailing list or
reach out to me on email at buffett
director northwestern.edu if buffer
drinker at at west indeedy you if you
have ideas you can expect us to receive
a link to a survey where we hope you'll
share your ideas also and in the
meantime everyone please be well and
stay imaginative and hopeful thanks so
much I do
