MALE SPEAKER: Thank you
all for coming today.
We have the pleasure of having
Ryan Holiday here at Google
to talk to us.
I'll give you guys a quick
intro to who Ryan is.
Ryan Holiday is a media
strategist and prominent writer
on strategy and business.
After dropping out
of college at 19
to apprentice under Ryan
Green, author of "The 48
Laws of Power" and
other best sellers,
he went on to advise
many bestselling authors,
like Tim Ferriss and
multi-platinum musicians.
He was a media strategist for
Tucker Max, another bestselling
author.
And he's the
Director of Marketing
at American Apparel,
where he had
to deal with everything
from media hype,
to lawsuits, to scandals.
His campaigns and
strategies for handling
good and bad situations have
been used in case studies
by Twitter, YouTube,
and Google, and written
about in "Ad Age," "The New
York Times," and "Fast Company."
His latest book, "The Obstacle
is The Way The Timeless
Art of Turning
Trials Into Triumph,"
was released by
Penguin on May 1.
He's also the bestselling
author of "Trust Me I'm Lying,"
and "Growth Hacker Marketing."
He's currently an Editor
at Large at "The New York
Observer," and contributes
to "Thought Catalog"
from his home in Austin, Texas.
Please join me in giving
Ryan Holiday a warm welcome.
[APPLAUSE]
Ryan, thanks a lot for
coming to speak at Google.
RYAN HOLIDAY: Of course.
MALE SPEAKER: There's
a bunch of fun topics
I want to delve into,
like learning, media
strategy, philosophy,
reading, writing.
But before we do all that can
you just walk us through real
quick like how you got
to where you are now
and how you got started
with everything?
RYAN HOLIDAY: Yeah, I mean, it's
sort of a long confusing story.
But I was in college.
I actually went to
UC Riverside, which
is like an hour
from here, and I was
contributing to the
student newspaper.
And so I thought
I would use this
as an excuse to like meet
all the people that I
wanted to meet.
So I ended up writing an
article about this guy.
His name is Tucker Max, who
was like a famous blogger
at the time.
We sort of struck up this
friendship from the article.
And he put out his first book.
I was like an intern for that.
And that was just some sort
of random thing that happened,
and that book ended up
becoming one of the first blogs
to become a bestselling book.
It sold something like 2
million copies worldwide now.
It launched this sort of whole
male centric literary genre,
which was very unexpected.
So I sort of saw how this
like blogging and publishing
was changing the book industry.
I ended up working with
another author through Tucker.
His name was Robert Greene,
who actually lives here in LA.
He wrote "The 48 Laws of Power."
So I was doing this
publishing stuff,
and then it happens
that Robert is
on the Board of Directors
for American Apparel.
So I started there as
sort of like a consultant
in 2007 maybe, and then ended up
building a marketing department
there.
And I've been there ever since.
And then I wrote my
first book in 2011,
which is sort of an
expose about the media
industry from my experiences
of working with relatively
controversial, unusual
people, and then obviously
my experiences with publishing
and writing as well.
MALE SPEAKER: Nice.
That's cool.
You're obviously really young.
And you've accomplished
a ton of stuff already.
You've had big responsibilities
at American Apparel.
You've dealt with a lot
of challenges there.
And you already have
three books out.
Is there something you
attribute your success to?
RYAN HOLIDAY: Not really.
I guess.
What I've found-- I have
this weird thing where
I think if you do one thing
you can be like really good
at that one thing.
If you do two things it's hard
to be good at those two things.
But if you do like a bunch of
things that are all somewhat
related, they kind of
like fuel into each other.
So it's like, I was
working for these authors,
and I was learning how
blogging works, which
turned around and became very
relevant at America Apparel.
But there I'm learning other
things about like ad buying,
and media, and stuff like that.
And then sort of working
with the authors,
I'm learning how books get made.
So all the things are
sort of this series
of like concentric circles that
sort of all add to each other.
So for me it's not
like I did one thing,
and I dedicated myself
totally to that,
and then I did another thing,
and then I did another thing.
It was like all sort
of simultaneous.
There was one period where I had
basically like three full time
jobs, which was not
exactly a fun experience,
but it sort of
compressed a period
of learning that would
have normally taken
like years into like one or two
years where I just learned so
much that then I could
experiment and do things
when I took some of
that stuff off my plate.
MALE SPEAKER: Got it.
And I know you've talked before
about the role of mentors.
I was curious to hear
about how in the past
you've set up those
sorts of relationships
where you're able
to learn from people
like Robert Greene and others?
RYAN HOLIDAY: Yeah,
I mean, I think
one of the problems
with mentorships
is people think it's this
like very formal relationship.
Like I say now that I was
an apprentice under Robert.
But that's just like
a word that gets
attributed to a relationship
after it's mostly wound down.
You know, it was he needed
a research assistant.
I volunteered to be
that research assistant.
And then it slowly grew into
a very beneficial relationship
for myself, and then obviously
hopefully for him as well.
So when I get young
kids that email me,
that want to talk
about-- They're like, oh,
will you be my mentor?
That sounds like very weird.
Like who would say that?
And I think Sheryl
Sandberg was talking about
that in "Lean In."
she was like people
think it's like
you get anointed.
And that's not
really how it works.
It's just like you don't
walk up to someone and say,
will you be my
girlfriend or boyfriend?
It's like no.
You meet, and then
a relationship
blossoms over time.
So the mentorships
I've had started
as very informal or
even sort of random,
and then based on like a
mutual exchange of value
grew over time into
being something.
And there's obviously a
bunch of different traits
that are important to a good
mentor/mentee relationship,
or whatever the other
word is for that.
But it's something
that you have to want,
and you have to sort
of build into existence
rather than like-- It's
not a scheduled thing.
It's not a formal thing.
It's just something
that happens.
MALE SPEAKER: Got it.
And besides these mentors,
what are some other places
that you've turned to in
the past for learning,
or for basically figuring
things out as you went along.
RYAN HOLIDAY: I mean, books
obviously are very important.
I read a lot.
I try to read like two
or three books a week.
And for me, what I
realized very early on,
and it's a little
bit clearer for me,
because I work in book
publishing, and I'm a writer,
but I consider reading to
be like part of my job.
And that was actually
somewhat weird
when I was working full
time at America Apparel.
It's like I would want to
sit there and read a book,
but you can't do that
at an office, you know.
So now I work from home, so
I can sort of arrange my day
in a way that appearances
matter a little bit less.
But what I say is,
OK, look, chances
are whatever problem you're
going through right now someone
else went through before
you, and they probably
wrote it down.
And so books are the way that
we access that knowledge.
And if you're not
availing yourself to it,
you're going to learn a
lot of things the hard way
when you don't
necessarily need to.
So I consider reading to
be like part of my job,
and part of what's
accelerated what
I've been able to accomplish.
So it's like when
people are like, oh,
how do you have so
much time to read?
It's like, well, how do
you have time to sleep,
and how do you have time
to eat, and go to work?
Like that's just what you do.
It's not like this
extra luxury that I
squeeze in when I'm on vacation.
MALE SPEAKER: Got it.
That was going to be
one of my questions.
How do you have so
much time to read.
RYAN HOLIDAY: There's no secret.
And I don't read fast.
I think a lot of people think
that people who read a lot
must be like speed readers,
and so they focus on that.
It's like, no, people
who read a lot just
spend a lot of time reading,
because it's important to them.
And that's sort of the
distinction that I made.
MALE SPEAKER: Got it.
No, that's helpful.
We'll get back to the reading
thing in a little bit.
I wanted to ask you a bit more
about media strategy stuff.
I don't know how many
people in the audience
have read either of
your first two books.
So I just wanted to touch on
some of those topics briefly.
Was media and marketing
sort of always a world
that was compelling
to you, and sort
of how did you get into that?
RYAN HOLIDAY: Well, I really
wanted to be a writer,
and I wanted to
be around writers.
But I was 19 years old so I had
nothing to contribute there.
But I did sort of understand
how the internet worked.
And I saw how blogs
were sort of becoming
very influential to
people who are my age.
So I thought like, oh, if I want
to work for these authors maybe
that's something that I
can bring to the table.
So I think that's a mistake
that a lot of writers make.
I mean, that might not be super
relevant to everyone here.
Like I find writing to be easy.
It's like having something
to say that's far more rare.
Like everyone has the ability
to string a sentence together,
and if you have something
compelling that you need to say
it doesn't really matter how
well the sentence is written.
Right?
So for me it was about-- I
wanted to be around writers,
but then I also knew that I
had to have like experiences,
and do things, and
learn things that
would make my
writing interesting.
So "Trust Me I'm Lying"
was the first instance
where I thought like I
have something to say here
that no one else has said
because I understand something,
or I've seen something that
maybe not everyone has seen,
and this book would be a way
for me to communicate that.
So it's like I always
wanted to do it.
I was just waiting
for sort of the pitch
that I wanted to swing at it.
MALE SPEAKER: OK.
Got it.
And in terms of that first
book, in your mind what
are the biggest take aways
or lessons that you've
learned from that?
Or you learned that,
created that book,
and that you've later
used to help promote
a lot of the musicians and
authors you've worked with?
RYAN HOLIDAY: So basically
"Trust Me I'm Lying"
was sort of an expose of
the modern media system,
but my premise is that when the
economics of a medium change
from subscription
based content to what
I will call one-off
content-- Right?
Like we don't read
the "Huffington Post."
We read articles from the
"Huffington Post," or articles
from "The New York Times."
That means that
all these articles
are competing against each
other for a finite amount
of attention.
And so that competition
multiplied millions of times
over exaggerates and
distorts the information
that's being conveyed.
Like a newspaper is a
buyer's market, right?
Like they're
deciding what content
is going to go in the
however many number of pages
they're publishing that day.
"Business Insider," or
"Gocker," or whatever,
they can publish
an infinite amount.
So there's sort of looking
to manufacture and create
as much content as
possible, and they
have a direct financial
incentive to do so.
And so that very
quickly puts you
at odds with the truth or
reality in a lot of ways.
Like in one of my talks And
this started with blogs,
but it's turned the
entire media system over.
Like I have this job ad I like
from "The Washington Post"
where they're looking for a
blogger to post like 12 times
a day.
So it's like, you can see how
after like three or four posts
you're starting to run out
of stuff to talk about.
Or you're starting to have
to talk about things that
have already been
talked about, and then
put your own spin on them.
And then because no one is
like subscribing to that site,
especially with things
like RSS reader declining,
the only way that people are
going to see that article
is whether it spreads on Twitter
or it spreads on Facebook.
And, you know, SEO is
obviously important too.
But basically that
means that unless it's
sort of hitting these
various social triggers,
it's not going to be seen.
And so that creates what
I call toxic incentives.
MALE SPEAKER: Yeah,
and people trying
to like grab you with headlines,
and the really weird subtext.
RYAN HOLIDAY: Yeah,
basically it means
the media is trying to
sell something to you
rather than trying
to literally sell you
something that is so good that
you would pay for it, you know?
And so because of that, one,
it turns a lot of journalists
into-- It adds a
level of manipulation
to the profession of
journalism, and then
it also creates certain
opportunities for marketers
to wield influence
and direct the news.
And so the book is sort of
trying to rip back that curtain
and show how that works.
MALE SPEAKER: Got it.
Do you think
anything has changed
since the publication
of your book?
Have things gotten worse?
RYAN HOLIDAY: Yeah.
Definitely worse.
So I wrote it in 2011.
It was published in mid 2012.
And I did an updated
paperback last year.
But like when I
wrote those, like
Upworthy didn't really exist.
And Buzzfeed was not the
behemoth that it now is.
And so I was talking about some
of the snark and negativity
that was very pervasive
in the media at the time,
and that's still a problem.
And now you're sort
of on the other side.
I think you're seeing this
very artificial positivity.
It's like this kid was
dancing at a talent show,
and you'll never guess
what happened next.
And it's just some
weird kid dancing.
It's not like this mind
blowing stuff, right?
But now what tends to get clicks
on Facebook-- Like the way
that the Facebook algorithm
favors certain stories,
determines the content.
Like there's entire businesses.
Upworthy is basically an entire
multimillion dollar business
designed to game Facebook's
social algorithm,
in the way that
like Demand Media
was created exclusively
to game SEO.
And so you're seeing
just massive amounts
of content designed
essentially to manipulate us.
And we know this.
And yet we share
them all anyway.
And the reality is most
things are not either
super negative or
super positive.
They're somewhere in
the middle, and they're
complicated and confusing.
But that doesn't distill itself
well into a headline or a three
minute video, and
so you see so much
content created
along those lines.
MALE SPEAKER: Cool.
Let's talk about philosophy
and stoicism a little bit.
That's the subject
of the newest book.
What's your view on philosophy?
How should people
learn it and use it?
RYAN HOLIDAY: Well, I definitely
didn't write a philosophy book,
because I know that when
people hear that, they're
like I don't want to read
that, that sounds super boring.
So like philosophy before
the modern university
was designed to help
people live good lives.
Now, it's mostly
pretentious, confusing,
and complicated
academic debates, right?
So I focus on
stoicism, specifically
on Marcus Aurelius, who
is at the time of writing
his book "Meditations," which
mine is partially based on,
is this totally unique
historical figure.
It's like you have a guy
who's the most-- He's
the guy in "Gladiator"
if you don't know.
But he's the most
powerful man in the world.
Right?
He has unlimited wealth.
He's the head of the most
powerful army on Earth.
He's the head of the most
powerful empire on Earth.
He's literally worshipped
as a god while he's alive.
Right?
And yet every
night he sits down,
and he writes in this little
journal about how he can
better, and more like just, and
honorable, and fair, and kind,
and patient, and in
all these things.
And then that document
survives, and for 2000 years
successful people have been
reading it, and interpreting
it, and basing
their lives on it.
To me that's what philosophy is.
And what's really cool
about stoicism-- Well,
we can talk about stoicism a
little bit more in a minute.
But stoicism, the three
most prominent stoics
are Marcus Aurelius,
who I just said
was the emperor, Epictetus,
who was a former slave.
So you have the most
powerful man in the world,
and then a totally
powerless man.
And then you have
Seneca, who was
one of the most famous
sort of businessmen
and political advisers
in his lifetime.
To me that says that it's this
philosophy for extreme success
in extreme adversity for
people who are actually
out in the world doing things.
It's not questions about
stuff you don't care about.
It's like how do you deal
with getting angry, or getting
jealous, or getting
discouraged, or wanting
to break the rules
about something.
How do you actually deal with
those practical issues in life?
That's what stoicism's about.
MALE SPEAKER: Got it.
Are there like a
handful of lessons
that you see yourself applying
like on a daily basis that
come from that philosophy,
or that help you
in certain situations?
RYAN HOLIDAY: Yeah.
Sure.
Well, the big one is the one
that I based-- So the book
is based on a quote
from Marcus Aurelius.
There's a long quote, but
the short version of it
is, "the impediment to
action advances action.
What stands in the
way becomes the way."
So I read that when
I was 19 years old
and it went over my head.
But as I've gotten older,
and as I wrote this book,
I started to understand
sort of what that means.
It's this formula for
optimism that essentially
says like, look, you don't
control what happens to you.
You control how you
respond to that thing,
and you may as
well respond well.
So that's a big one.
You know, the stoics have
this idea where they say,
like there is no good or bad,
there is only perception.
I think that's really important.
Stoics had an idea of what
they called amor fati, which
is this sort of love of
everything that happens to you.
So if you picked up any of
the stoic texts right now,
it would just be like short
sentences, almost like zen
like sentences about how
to just deal with life.
And that's what I take from it.
And every time you
read it and look at it,
you take something
different based
on what you're dealing
with right now.
MALE SPEAKER: Got it.
You mentioned Seneca,
who was like one
of the wealthiest
people at his time.
I think a lot of
people nowadays think
stoicism is like sort
of either not feeling
emotion, or forgoing like all
of your worldly possessions
and not being materialistic.
But this guy was super wealthy.
RYAN HOLIDAY: Yeah.
MALE SPEAKER: And
he really cared
about a lot of these ideas.
So how do you
reconcile those things?
RYAN HOLIDAY: Sure.
Well, one of the saddest
parts of philosophy
is that stoicism
is known as being
the philosophy of
not having emotions.
And then epicureanism
is known as being
the philosophy of like
loving luxury, and whatever.
And, in actuality,
both schools were
about essentially the
opposite of whatever
their modern reputation is.
It's very unfortunate.
I think it turns a
lot of people off.
But what Seneca is saying
is, and all the stoics,
they're not saying like
you can't be wealthy,
you can't be successful, you
can't go out and do things.
What they're saying
is that you can't
be dependent on these things.
Like he's saying, wealth
is nice if you have it,
but if you make your personal
happiness dependent on having
this money, that bad, because
it's not in your control.
Right?
The economy could melt
down at any moment,
or your house could burn down,
or you could lose your job.
And if you have equated wealth
with personal happiness,
now your personal happiness
is outside of your control.
And so stoicism is about
control in that sense.
How do you make the distinction
between externals and internals
and focus most of your
energy on internals.
Having externals is nice, but
sort of what they would say
is understand that they
are yours in trust, which
means that they could
leave you at any moment.
And a lot of the stoic exercises
are sort of about practice
not having those things.
So Seneca was famous.
One day a month he would
practice being poor.
So he would wear
like crappy clothes,
and he would like
not eat at his house,
and he would sleep outside.
I mean, it's I think more now
like a metaphor than anything
else.
But the idea is like we're
so afraid of these things,
so we don't think about
them, and therefore
we're not prepared for them.
And then it makes
them much scarier,
and we dread them
that much more,
even though if you looked
at it really objectively
it's really not that bad.
MALE SPEAKER: Right.
That makes a lot of sense.
Back to the subject of reading,
which you brought up before.
For those of you who don't
know, sort of as Ryan mentioned,
he is an extremely avid reader.
His collection of
books is enormous,
and he has like
over 15,000 people
who subscribe to his
monthly reading suggestion
newsletter, which I
follow and appreciate.
So I'm curious to hear a little
bit more about your perspective
on reading and books, and the
purpose they serve for you.
Have you always been
reading a ton of stuff,
or did that sort of
develop all of a sudden.
RYAN HOLIDAY: Yeah.
I mean, I've always
been reading a lot.
I grew up reading a lot.
In college I don't know.
I would take cues
from the professor,
and then I would read just like
everything that they suggested,
or I would ask any smart
person that I would interact
with in any way if they
had any book advice.
So weirdly I got
introduced to stoicism,
because when I was in
college I got invited
to this conference that was
put on by Trojan condoms
of all things.
They had a conference in West
Hollywood for like college
journalists.
And then the moderator of
this like little session
was Doctor Drew, who's
host of "Love Line"
and he has that show on HLN now.
And so we were leaving,
and I was like, hey,
do you recommend any books?
And he recommended Epictetus,
who is one of the other stoics.
And so that sort
of chance encounter
introduced me to a book
that I spent $15 on.
And it totally changed my
life in like dramatic way,
and put me on the
path that I'm on now.
And so I'm sort of
of the mind that it's
like ask people which
books changed their life,
read those books, and see
what you can get out of them,
and then let them sort of-- Like
the way I find books to read
is I ask people what
they like, and then I
try to read one book from
every book that I read.
So I flip to the
bibliography, and I
see like anything that
sounds interesting.
Or I'll just pick something
mentioned during the text.
So I kind of have these chains,
where it's like I read this,
and then that takes
me to this, and then
that takes me to
some other thing.
MALE SPEAKER: Cool.
How do you organize
yourself and what you read?
I know you've written about
the commonplace book system.
Maybe you can talk about
that as well for a second.
RYAN HOLIDAY: Yeah.
So I only read physical books.
I know that makes me
somewhat anachronistic now,
but I read only
physical books, and then
I write notes in them while I'm
reading, and I fold the pages.
I learned this system when I
was researching for Robert.
This is the system that he used.
So I had to learn
that system and then
participate in that system.
So my system is I read
the books, I take notes,
I fold the pages.
And then I wait
like a week or two,
and I go back through
the book and I
transfer any quotes,
or stories, or facts
that I marked down to
four by six note cards.
And then I organize
those note cards.
I have a box of my house
that's organized by themes.
And I do this, one, when
I'm just reading generally,
but if I'm researching
for a book,
like "The Obstacle is the
Way" I think is three parts,
and then each part
is like 10 chapters.
So in my box for that
book was actually
five sections, three, and then
an intro and a conclusion.
And then each section had
10 file dividers, and then
probably 20 to 30 note cards
per section, sometimes 200 note
cards per section.
And then when I would sit down
to write I'd take the note
cards out, and I
sit down and I--
Like if I'm writing
Part Two Chapter Six,
and I'm travelling, all I have
to take with me is those note
cards.
And that's got like
quotes and stories,
and maybe I saw a
word that I liked,
and I want to use that word.
So weirdly the book only took me
probably three months to write.
Like the first draft
took three months.
But I researched for
it for seven years.
MALE SPEAKER: Right.
Now, we're obviously at Google,
and here we do a lot of work
towards digitizing
things, and trying
to put all the world's
information online, and make
it searchable, accessible,
all that stuff.
RYAN HOLIDAY: I've been
thinking about hiring someone
on TaskRabbit to scan them
all, but I'm so nervous.
So last year my house
got broken into.
And the first thing I thought
about was like, oh my god,
like I hope they didn't
take my note cards.
I'm going to be so screwed
if they take my note cards.
And they didn't.
Like it was totally untouched,
and I was like, oh, thank God.
So as I'm cleaning up my
office, because they basically
destroyed everything.
I'm cleaning up the office.
I set the box like
on like a corner,
and then I forget about it.
And like 10 minutes later
I walk into it, and just
poof, all the cards everywhere.
MALE SPEAKER: Aw, shoot.
RYAN HOLIDAY: So I know I need
to digitize it at some point.
But I mean, it's literally like
thousands and thousands of note
cards, some of which have
totally illegible handwriting.
And so I'm not sure.
I may just have to stick
with this system until I die
or something.
MALE SPEAKER: I mean, you could
do it for backup obviously.
RYAN HOLIDAY: Yeah.
MALE SPEAKER:
[INAUDIBLE] scenarios.
But I was just curious to
hear like you love paper,
and you love the
physical element of it.
Can you talk a little
bit about that?
Like what causes you to be--
RYAN HOLIDAY: Well, I think
there's two things there.
One, I think what
a lot of people
miss about books when
they're like making e-readers
and e-books and
stuff, is they forget
that a book is a
piece of technology.
And at one point it was
a pretty innovative piece
of technology, sort of
blew everyone's mind
when it came out.
But an analogy
might be like, you
know when you watch like
science fiction movies
they have all these
like cool doors.
Like the doors break
open in the middle.
And then we live in the
future comparatively, right?
And we still have just
metal doors, right?
Because a door is a really
good piece of technology,
in terms of it being
simple, and effective,
and more or less does
what we need it to do.
And I think a book is a
similar piece of technology.
Like in terms of sitting
down and reading something
that you're probably only
going to read one time for $15
a book is a pretty
good version of that.
And so for most people they
don't pick up a physical book,
and they're like,
ah, I hate this,
it's just not working for me.
In fact, people
love books, right?
So I think that's
something that people miss.
And I think that's
something that's
going to stick with
us for a long time.
It's just a great
piece of technology
all things considered.
People also forget
that in publishing
like it's so cheap to
print a physical book
that the margins
are-- It costs like $2
to print a physical book.
So switching to
ebooks is not that big
of a savings for most people.
But then in terms of the
note cards and stuff,
I think it's really
important for two reasons.
One, having to physically
transfer the stuff.
So if I'm just reading an ebook,
and then I'm transferring stuff
to Evernote I'm not having
to put in any effort,
or I'm not having to run that
content through my mind again.
And so I would fear that
if I did that I would just
have an enormous like Evernote
file or Google Doc filled
with things that I have no
idea are actually there.
Like if I'm writing
something often I'll
like think of a note card
that I know that I wrote,
and it will be a
total pain to go find,
but the only reason
I know it exists
is because I physically
wrote it down,
and I remember
having to write down
like six sentences
on a note card.
And I remember that,
and that's important.
But then like when
you're crafting a book,
being able to move things around
like right in front of you,
or lay them out, is, I
think, very underrated.
A lot of authors that I
know, or aspiring authors
more often than not,
think that writing a book
is just like, oh, I'm
going to sit down, and then
see where it takes me.
That's like a great way
to write a bunch of stuff
that you can't use.
So for me, like organizing it
and having it all sketched out
before I start, and being
able to-- It's like,
oh, I'm going to
move this over here,
or like actually I didn't use
this quote in section one,
now I can put it over
here in section three,
is very important.
And I don't know what the
technological replacement
for that would be.
MALE SPEAKER: Got it.
Are there any authors you're
reading right now that you want
to throw out, or
that you recommend?
RYAN HOLIDAY: Any books
that I'm reading--
MALE SPEAKER: Or just
finished recently?
RYAN HOLIDAY: I'm
trying to think.
What have I read?
Yeah.
I just read this book called
"Evening Empire," which
is by-- It's a fiction book.
It was really interesting.
It was like the author's
father was killed--
This is a true story--
The author's father was
assassinated by the mob in like
the '70s when he was like five
years old, and he wrote
like an investigative book
about his father's
own murder that I
thought was really interesting.
I tend to read all
over the place.
So like I'm reading a book
about the Civil War one day,
and then I'm reading a
book about technology,
and then I'm reading
a book of fiction.
So I keep the reading list,
and I only recommend books
that I've read that I liked.
I read a lot of
books that I think
like aren't good
enough to recommend.
But I do that once a month.
And that's sort of
everything that I've
been reading in that period.
MALE SPEAKER: Got it.
Besides reading,
are there other sort
of rituals, or things that
are part of your daily life
that help towards writing, or
towards any of the marketing
stuff?
RYAN HOLIDAY: I mean,
I think exercise
is very important to
the creative process.
I try to either run, or swim,
or I do cross fit every day.
That's very important.
I tend to have like
creative breakthroughs
when I've stopped
working on something
and I've went to
do something else.
Which is cool.
You were showing
me the gym earlier.
I think that's probably
why that's there.
It's like you can work, and
work, and work on a problem.
And then you stop.
And then when you're
thinking about something
else that sort of magically
comes together in your mind.
So I think that's important.
Yeah, I don't know.
MALE SPEAKER: Cool.
You mentioned about writing.
You mention a little bit
about like the balance
between technique and
style, versus content,
and you lean more heavily
towards the content side.
I guess, is it a
common mistake that you
see that other
people don't really
have interesting
messages to say?
RYAN HOLIDAY: Well,
I just think it's sad
that most writers think they
have to go pay like $80 grand
to get an MFA.
So you're just focusing
on the craft part.
And the craft is certainly
important, but just
think about all the
fascinating memoirs that
have been written by people
who are like essentially
illiterate, or just
dumb as shit, right?
But they wrote like
fascinating memoirs
because they lived
interesting lives.
And I think you're far
better off focusing
on having something to say than
being really good at saying it,
you know?
Obviously there
are some books that
are just like amazing,
beautiful pieces of writing.
And like "The Great Gatsby"
is like I think an example.
Like people go
like, this is some
of the best writing ever
done in the English language.
But it's also, one, a super
compelling story written
by someone who was
being deeply critical,
and felt very compelled
to say something
about an entire
generation of people.
And so I would say
that "The Great Gatsby"
could be 50% worse from
a writing standpoint
and might still
be worth reading.
Or even when you
look at people who
are not professional writers,
like when you go on like Medium
or something, the best
posts are like from people
who have a particularly unique
or unexpected perspective
about something.
And so that's what I think
people should focus on
on their writing.
MALE SPEAKER: Cool.
Before we switch
to audience Q&A,
I just wanted to ask you about
the roadmap going forward.
What are you planning
on working on next?
Any upcoming goals or projects?
RYAN HOLIDAY: I mean, this
is three books in three
years for me, so I'm
pretty exhausted.
But I'm thinking about what
the next book will be probably,
and then I'm going
to hopefully take
some time off because
I'm very tired.
But yeah, keep doing
what I'm doing.
I have a marketing company.
I still work with
American Apparel.
I mean, there's no like
thing that I want to do next,
because this is
what I wanted to do.
MALE SPEAKER: Cool.
That's great.
I can open it up to audience
Q&A. I'll walk over to you guys
so you get recorded.
Yeah.
RYAN HOLIDAY: That's so weird.
MALE SPEAKER: Yeah.
RYAN HOLIDAY: Talk into
his hip microphone please.
AUDIENCE: Hello.
OK, I have 43 questions.
RYAN HOLIDAY: Is it 43
questions or a 43 part question?
AUDIENCE: No,
actually I guess it's
kind of a sign of how
great this talk was, or is,
that it's like, oh, and I
want to ask that, and that.
And why doesn't this
guy ask that question,
and that follow up?
So I'll choose maybe one or two.
The first one when Max
asked you about how did you
come by, kind of get to
the point of being-- You
kind of started at
19 as-- You know,
you started working
with that author.
But I'd like to kind of
take it a little bit.
The thing that strikes me most,
and I'm sure a lot of people
here, you give off a sense of
like this relentless, sharp,
focus that all these
kids that supposedly, you
know, still live with
their parents at 35
probably don't display.
And I would like you to talk
a little bit about-- I mean,
it's like all of the rest of
the stuff stems from that.
RYAN HOLIDAY: Sure.
AUDIENCE: You've
got this huge drive,
and then you figured
out how to-- If you
could talk about that.
RYAN HOLIDAY: No,
that's interesting.
I've always been sort of a very
intense person I would say.
I think there's
sort of an intensity
mixed with sort of
introvertedness, which
works well for what I
do, because it forces
you to sort of go internal,
and sort of nagging things
that you're just
focused on until you
can get them to make sense.
So I guess it's always
been that way for me,
but I sort of start
with 19 because up
until that point I guess I
was just a normal college
student that got a
series of lucky breaks
that introduced me to
people that taught me a lot.
But I don't know.
Like my childhood was
pretty unremarkable.
It wasn't like Steve
Jobs growing up next
to like the dude who created
Hewlett Packard, or whatever.
There was no thing like that.
It was just in college
I met some people
and started down this
path, and I've always
been very intense about it.
AUDIENCE: But there's
nothing during high school,
or during earlier schooling
that shows a difference in focus
between--
RYAN HOLIDAY: No,
I don't think so.
I mean, I've thought a lot about
it, but there's nothing there.
I wish there was.
It would make it
easier to explain this.
AUDIENCE: I guess I have maybe
two questions, but one I think
is quick.
Growing up you said you'd
had a lifelong obsession
with reading.
Was there like any kind
of shift in genre or book
that drew you in?
Or did you always love
biographies, or historical,
or fiction, or escapist
fantasy, or whatever?
RYAN HOLIDAY: I think what
my parents did pretty early
on is they gave me like all--
My dad was a police officer
and my mom was like
a school principal.
They were just
very like educated,
but like civil servant types.
So they gave me
their favorite books,
which just happened to
be the books that they
read in high school and college.
But they gave them
to me pretty early.
So it was like,
by the time I got
to like middle school
and high school
I'd already read
all those books.
So it was like, what
comes after that?
So I think I'm just a testament
to the compounding returns
that come from having
an early start.
That's the only-- I mean,
I thought a lot about it,
and there was no
like, oh, you know,
I got introduced to this
book and it changed my life,
or I saw this person talk
and it changed everything.
There wasn't really like that.
It was just, you know, I'm just
reading "Lord of the Flies"
in fourth grade, or fifth
grade, or something,
when I should have
been reading it
in freshman year of high school.
And so that allowed me to start
asking questions and seeing
things maybe a little bit early.
AUDIENCE: And then
the second question
is, is there a particular
book or work that you really
wish that you had done?
RYAN HOLIDAY: Is there a
book I wish I'd written?
AUDIENCE: Yeah.
If you read something and
said, wow, I wish that was me.
RYAN HOLIDAY: I'm a
big Nicholas Taleb fan.
So I think "The Black
Swan" is pretty amazing.
One of the people in the
book is Samuel Zamurray,
who was the founder
of United Fruit.
He's not a good person.
But there was a really
interesting biography
of him called "The Fish
That Ate the Whale"
that I liked a lot that I
probably wish that I'd written.
I think most of the books
that I thought were amazing
that I wish I'd written were
probably like biographies,
because I just can't wrap my
head around writing like a 900
page book about someone,
and not only writing it,
but having no factual
errors, and being
able to sort of live inside
this person and produce this--
I don't know.
Just the mammoth size of that
task is very impressive to me.
AUDIENCE: So you
mentioned really at 19
you were interested, slash
excited about blogging.
And, you know, you sort
of was charting a bit
about sort of the arc
of that, maybe how
it's maybe going down at this
point in time, the lack of RSS
feeds and what have
you, and maybe it's
turning into sort
of advertising.
I'm curious, because
you've connected
in a great way blogging to how
that's produced sort of more
publishing opportunities, is
there a new technology today,
or is there a technology
front that you're
excited about that
kind of connects,
if not in the same way, but
has that sort of same feeling
for you that blogging once did?
RYAN HOLIDAY: I don't know.
Obviously I think books are
really exciting right now.
I think you're seeing
a lot of people
do cool things in like audio.
I think you're seeing
cool stuff in audio right
now, both like on podcasting
and in audiobooks.
It's never sort of
been cheaper and easier
to produce like
professional quality stuff.
And then with
smartphones and broadband
you can store this stuff really
easily or access it easily.
So I think audio books used
to be the thing that you could
only listen to in your car,
and you had to have nine CDs
or whatever.
And now it's like it's just one
thing in iTunes or whatever.
Right?
So I think that's interesting.
But there's no one technology
that's like, oh, I love this,
I think this is going
to change everything.
And that might just
be because having
seen that happen with
blogging I'm a little jaded,
and I think that sort of--
That one of my favorite writers
is Evgeny Morozov,
where his sort of point
is that technology
just allows us
to be more or less
who we actually are.
And so I've lost some of
that idealism about like,
oh, this is going to make
everything so much better.
It's like, no, you're going
to see the same people doing
the same things,
just like you're
seeing some of the same
Hollywood economics now
be applied to the people who
are creating content on YouTube,
or whatever.
It's all, at the end of
the day, it's the same.
AUDIENCE: Hello Senor.
RYAN HOLIDAY: Yes.
AUDIENCE: Quick question.
What's on your iPod right now?
RYAN HOLIDAY: I would prefer
not to answer that question,
because I listen
to terrible music.
My thing is that I listen
to the same songs like over,
and over, and over again.
And then I throw
them away after,
because I'm so
sick of them, and I
feel so disgusted that I would
have listened to this song
300 or 400 times.
AUDIENCE: But it
helps though, right?
RYAN HOLIDAY: Yeah, of course.
And I think it's like very
good for like focusing.
The music becomes
background noise.
The music replaces
the background noise,
and then all that's left is
like whatever you're working on.
AUDIENCE: I'll get your
recommendations later.
RYAN HOLIDAY: Yeah.
I don't think you're
going to like them.
AUDIENCE: Two questions.
One is when do you read?
Do you ritualize you're
reading, like in the morning,
or a certain time,
or do you just
read whenever you
feel like reading?
RYAN HOLIDAY: I'm more
of like a binge reader.
So if I'm travelling I'll
read like a ton of books,
and then if I'm home and I'm
busy I might not read anything
for a couple days.
So it's me it's more I read
whenever I have a chance,
and I try to increase
that by always
like carrying a
book around with me.
So it's like, you know, let's
say I have to be here at 10:30.
Maybe I'm going to
get here at 10:15,
and like read
for-- You know, I'm
going to try to squeeze
reading in like little blocks
like that.
AUDIENCE: What motivates
you to put the effort
to do all this-- Like
what drives that?
RYAN HOLIDAY: Yeah.
And I call it a
note card system.
If you Google like my name,
and that, you can see it,
and I have pictures, and
I've sketched it all out.
But like this is my job.
I mean, I'm supposed
to find-- Like when
I write books I need to have
examples, and stories, and data
to make my argument.
So it's somewhat
unfair in that I
get paid to produce this system.
So it's not like I'm doing it
for fun because I'm very OCD.
It's like this is what I have
to do to produce what I produce.
But even if I didn't I
would still probably do it--
And I had a version
of this system
before I learned it-- Because
I think it's important.
I mean, one of the
big sections that I
have is just like life advice,
just weird, interesting
perspectives that I might not
have thought of otherwise,
that I might want to
go back to at some time
if I'm like dealing
with something
or struggling with something.
AUDIENCE: Hi.
Is there anything else
that you can attribute
to your success besides
reading, and social networking,
and obviously your drive?
Like is there anything?
RYAN HOLIDAY: Well,
one would be luck.
Right?
I think that's a
lot of people don't.
It's like, hey, I
emailed this person.
He got back to me, and then
another good thing happened,
and another good thing
happened, and it sort of
builds from there.
So I think that's
obviously very important.
But that probably doesn't
answer your question.
So I've hired and fired
my fair share of people.
And like I hire people.
I'm very excited about them.
And then so often they
end up not working out,
because two things.
They don't want it, right?
And I seem to want them to be
more successful than they want
to be for themselves, and
that's very frustrating.
Or two, like they're
just nuts, like
they just have so many,
especially young people,
like they have so many issues.
And it's like, look, I'm
hiring you to do this job,
not because I want to be like
involved in your personal life,
or I want to hear
why you couldn't
do this because of that.
So for me it was like I
wanted this stuff really bad,
and I wasn't going to
let any things that I
was dealing with
interfere with that.
So it was like sort
of not all business,
but like when it was
business it was all business.
And so I think taking
care of yourself
and being well
adjusted, and centered,
and healthy is very important.
And it's sort of part
of the job as well.
AUDIENCE: Can you talk a
little bit more-- Sorry,
it's another question.
RYAN HOLIDAY: Yeah.
AUDIENCE: Can you
talk a little bit more
about how you became Director
for the American Apparel?
RYAN HOLIDAY: Yeah.
So this probably doesn't
apply for any other company
because American Apparel
is a little bit unusual,
but when I came in American
Apparel had no marketing
department.
And the company was probably
a $400 million a year
company at this point
with 10,000 employees.
But there was like
a guy over here
who kind of did some
marketing stuff, and then
someone over here who sent out,
you know, product placement,
and then there was
someone else over here
who was designing ads.
And part of what Dov
brought me in to do
was sort of organize that stuff.
So I ended up building
the marketing department.
Like literally our office was at
one point like a large storage
closet for broken sewing
machines at the factory.
And so we cleared that out,
and that became the office.
So I ended up becoming
the Director of Marketing
because it was like
I built it, and there
wasn't anyone else
to be in charge.
And so it was this sort of
totally random accumulation
of stuff that led to
me being the director.
And American Apparel is like a
vertically integrated company.
So like Dov, the owner and CEO,
is like my only direct boss.
So it probably
couldn't have worked
at Urban Outfitters or somewhere
else, but it's been very cool.
I got to learn so
much on the job.
What I like about marketing
is you do this thing,
and then you can
like see in real time
whether it's like driving
people to the store,
or it's driving sales, or
you put out this thing,
and then a reporter's
calling you
and they want to talk about it.
So marketing has been
very cool for me,
and my role at
American Apparel was
about creating some
semblance of strategy
behind that, because
it wasn't there before.
It was just very scattered.
AUDIENCE: Sorry, will
be my last question.
RYAN HOLIDAY: Whatever.
AUDIENCE: So in
terms of marketing,
would you say that you just
attended a lot of conferences,
and how you got into that in
terms of social networking?
RYAN HOLIDAY: I've definitely
been to a lot of conferences.
I could probably count on one
hand with like half my fingers
how many of those conferences
I really got something out of.
I think a lot of people
focus on those things
because it's like what
everyone else is doing.
The conferences that I've
gotten the most of that I've
met the most people
at-- I was actually
at a Google conference in
London like two weeks ago
called Google Create.
It was very cool that I
met all these people at.
It was one of the
best conferences
I've probably ever been to.
But it was like totally
random, and most of the people
were not talking
about marketing.
So I tend to find that
it's going to the things
that you don't know
that much about.
Like you go to
South by Southwest,
it's like there's 250,000
other people there
attending this conference.
You're not going to get
face time with people.
You're probably not
going to learn that much.
Everyone is there just
as an excuse to party.
Is that the place that you're
going to get the most out
of it?
And is that worth a week
of your life, or whatever?
So one, I try to think
about attending the ones
that other people
aren't attending.
And then I've also found that
if you're speaking at-- So
I would much rather
speak at a conference
than attend a conference, even
if that conference I'm speaking
at is much less prestigious
and much smaller than the one
that I'm attending, because it
sort of changes the dynamic,
and you have a different
relationship with the people
that you're meeting.
I went to this one like
sort of private-- I
guess this is a good
example-- I went
to this private
conference, and Keith-- I
don't know if you know
who Keith Ferrazzi is,
but he wrote that book
"Never Eat Alone."
And he spoke.
And I was talking to the
host, and he was like, yeah,
I invited Keith, and he was
like, hey, do you want to come?
It's this thing at my house.
And he was like, I'll
come only if I can speak.
And I was like, what?
And he's like, he only
goes to conferences
he can speak at, because
of that exact thing.
It just changes the dynamic
of how you meet people,
and how they perceive
you, and stuff like that.
So that might be
like a little trick.
AUDIENCE: Thank you.
RYAN HOLIDAY: Yeah.
MALE SPEAKER: All right.
Thank you so much
Ryan for coming.
RYAN HOLIDAY: Cool.
Thank you guys.
