Just been working on Berkman's book now and then
and just AK Press republished it, what is Anarchism
Reading these letters in the 20s one is working on the book and is finding it very difficult one of the things that he's
trying to come to grips with, I think in the book,
is why haven't people come to this idea, this idea which to me is just common sense, it's just..
this natural instinct almost, to solidarity and support?
I've seen Russia, I've seen totalitarianism in action
Why haven't
anarchist ideas had a greater impact in the world, I think he's talking about... now that's
80 years ago nearly
and the question we're also facing as people
At least believe what Emma Goldman says, anarchism is the only
belief that shows men and women, their true self, who they can be. We see that
we know that instinctively yet it's still had such A minuscule impact
Is that true or is it ...?
Chomsky: I don't think it's true that it's had a minuscule impact.
I mean a lot of the progressive social change of the past century
you know, isn't anarchist like progressive taxation isn't anarchist... social security isn't anarchist
But it's a reflection of attitudes and understanding which if they go a little bit further do reflect
anarchist commitment and they do... they are based on the Idea that
they really should be solidarity, sympathy, community, mutual support, mutual aid, and so on and so forth and
opportunities for creative action and they were based on these... they don't... you know they're subdued and channeled and modified so they
don't take real libertarian forms, but they're there and they lead the social change
Why hasn't it going further?
Well, a large part of it is violence and so, take say..
Berkman's experience in Russia
He entered into a violent totalitarian state. I mean up until the
Bolshevik takeover, the coup, revolution revolution, whatever you wanna call it, up until that
there were very significant popular
libertarian, sometimes anarchist initiatives all over.
Running from, you know, peasant anarchism in Ukraine to
workers councils with Soviets and so on and so forth...
They were simply smashed by force
by great violence, I mean Lenin and Trotsky were totalitarian extremists, and
they had a theory behind it
They were kind of dedicated Marxists who
believed that a backward primitive country Like Russia can't go to socialism
Masters principles tell us that and
Therefore we have to drive the country by force.
through the stages of
essentially state capitalist development, and then ultimately something will happen
I mean they weren't repeating the master accurately
This required suppression of
many years of Marx's later work which were literally suppressed
He was studying the peasant societies in Russia and so on and so forth, but that doesn't really matter...
I mean the point is they had a conception they used to... they had the force...
It wasn't easy like, you know, to destroy
Makhno's movement or Kronstadt
Eliminate the Soviets and so on. It wasn't a trivial operation, but it was carried out, and Berkman saw a
a totalitarian vicious...totalitarian society
- arising very much the way anarchists had predicted
- Yes
- I mean Bakunin spelled it all out. In fact Trotsky..
before he joined it said it was going to happen as did Rosa Luxembourg and others
But it happened so... and that's their variant... our variant was different
Berkman was writing right after Wilson's red scare - which made
the Patriot Act look like a Tea Party
It was a violent repression run by the progressives
Woodrow Wilson and others and not just affecting
anarchists, not just Emma Goldman who was kicked out, but
You know, even people pretty much in the mainstream like Eugene Debs, you know
leading labor figure... He... I mean Wilson tossed him into jail because he
raised some questions about the nobility of Wilson's war
and refused to even grant him amnesty when everyone else
was granted amnesty... this is really vindictive and it really
crushed independent thought... crushed labor... had a big effect so it was
violence. Alongside the violence there is the rise of
massive propaganda
That's the rise of the public relations industry to try to control attitudes and beliefs but
quite apart from that there's something quite simple.
I mean there are disciplinary effects to the way life is organized
Take, say, a student today
Students today have many... are more in some ways... I mean in a lot of ways they're freer when they were 60 years ago. Their
attitudes and commitments and so on.
- On the other hand the more disciplined.
- Yes
- They're disciplined by debt
- Yes, yes
- A part of the reason for arranging education so you come out with heavy debt is so you're disciplined or
let's take the last 20 years of the neoliberal years, roughly
What's called globalization: Neoliberalism.
A lot of it is... a very striking part of it is just aimed to discipline
It wants to eliminate freedom of choice and impose discipline
How do you do it? Well if we have a couple in the United States now
working, you know
Each 50... each of them 50 hours a week to put food on the table
But you don't have time to think about how to become a libertarian socialist
What you're worried about is how do I get food on the table
- Where can I shop cheaply?
- Yeah, I mean, that guy has kids to take care of, and I got something doing, you know
When they're sick I've got to go to work and what's going to happen to them?, to you know, and that's very
that's well-designed, techniques of imposing discipline. and there are costs to trying to be independent
Just take, say, trying to organize a labor union
and if you're the organizer
there's going to be cost to you... I mean maybe the workforce will gain but there's cost to you
- And we know there is... and we know what the cost is... Not just in energy and effort but just in punishment
- Yes
And people who are living in fragile circumstances have, I think, a reasonable calculation...
They say why should I take the cost? I have to get by.
So there are many reasons why normal instincts and attitudes don't come out.
But, you know, over time they often do. That's why we have social changes to for the better
