>>> THE QANON MOVEMENT APPEARS
>>> THE QANON MOVEMENT APPEARS
TO BE GAINING A LOT OF
FOLLOWERS.
CAN YOU TALK ABOUT WHAT YOU
THINK ABOUT THAT AND WHAT YOU
HAVE TO SAY TO PEOPLE WHO ARE
FOLLOWING THIS MOVEMENT RIGHT
NOW?
>> WELL, I DON’T KNOW MUCH ABOUT
THE MOVEMENT OTHER THAN I
UNDERSTAND THEY LIKE ME VERY
MUCH.
UH, WHICH I APPRECIATE.
BUT I DON’T KNOW MUCH ABOUT THE
MOVEMENT.
>> I’VE BEEN A BIG SUPPORTER OF
MENTAL HEALTH.
I RECOMMEND THAT PEOPLE WHO
BELIEVE IT MAYBE SHOULD TAKE
ADVANTAGE WHILE IT STILL EXISTS
IN THE AFFORDABLE CARE ACT.
>> THOSE TWO VERY DIFFERENT
ANSWERS.
QANON HAS GONE MAINSTREAM, SO
MAINSTREAM THAT THE TWO MEN
RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT ARE
ACKNOWLEDGING ITS EXISTENCE AND
AT LEAST TWO QANON SUPPORTERS
HAVE A PRETTY GOOD SHOT OF BEING
ELECTED TO CONGRESS IN NOVEMBER.
YOU CAN’T TALK DISINFORMATION
WITHOUT GETTING IN DEPTH ON
QANON.
QANON IS A PRO-TRUMP ONLINE
CONSPIRACY CULT BASED ON THE
BELIEF THAT DONALD TRUMP IS
BATTLING DEEP STATE ACTORS AND
CHILD MOLESTERS.
IT BEGAN ON A RACIST FORUM IN
2017 FREQUENTED BY TROLLS AND
FAR RIGHT EXTREMISTS.
IF NOT FOR SOCIAL MEDIA, IT
MIGHT HAVE STAYED THERE.
AS THE QANON CONSPIRACY SPREAD
ONLINE, OFTEN THROUGH
ANTI-SEMITIC MEMES, BELIEVERS
STARTED SHOWING UP IN THE REAL
WORLD AT TRUMP RALLIES.
QANON BELIEVERS ALSO BEGAN
POPPING UP IN THE NEWS, OFTEN
FOR COMMITTING VIOLENT CRIMES.
THE FBI WARNED LAST YEAR THAT
QANON IS A POTENTIAL DOMESTIC
TERROR THREAT.
THIS CONSPIRACY THEORY, ONCE
HIDDEN IN THE SHADOWS OF THE
DARK WEB, HAS MADE ITS WAY TO
THOUSANDS OF THOSE FACEBOOK
GROUPS THAT ROGER WAS TALKING
ABOUT, AND MILLIONS OF MEMBERS.
IT’S NOW INFILTRATING A NEW
GROUP OF TARGETS.
BRANDY ZADROZNY HAS MORE ON
THAT.
BRANDY?
>> IT’S NOT JUST A CONSPIRACY
THEORY.
IT’S A CULT.
IT FEEDS ON UNCERTAINTY AND
ISOLATION.
NATIONWIDE PROTESTS, THE
ELECTION, AND A PANDEMIC HAVE
PROVIDED JUST THE ENVIRONMENT TO
RECRUIT AND RADICALIZE NEW
MEMBERS.
THIS CHART WAS MADE USING
CROWDTANGLE, A FACEBOOK-OWNED
TOOL.
IT SHOWS THE ACTIVITY OF
HUNDREDS OF THE LARGEST QANON
GROUPS.
THAT SPIKE IS IN MARCH WHEN
STATES BEGAN COVID-19 LOCKDOWN
MEASURES.
BUT IT HASN’T JUST GROWN.
QANON CONTENT IS REACHING A NEW
AUDIENCE AND IN SOME UNEXPECTED PLACES.
ANTIVACCINATION, ANTIMASK
CONSPIRACIES HAVE PUSHED THE
THEORY.
IN SOME 200 CITIES AND TOWNS
ACROSS THE U.S., MOMS, OFTEN
WITH KIDS IN TOW, GATHERED IN
THEIR MAIN STREETS, HOLDING
SIGNS BRANDED WITH QANON
MESSAGES.
NOW, AFTER SIX MONTHS OF RAPID
GROWTH, FACEBOOK FINALLY TOOK
SOME ACTION REMOVING SOME BUT
NOT ALL OF THE QANON GROUPS THAT
WERE SPECIFICALLY THE DISCUSSING
VIOLENCE.
TWITTER MADE A SIMILAR STRONGER
SWEEP THE WEEK BEFORE.
THOSE MOVES HAVE DECREASED BUT
NOT ELIMINATED QANON ACTIVITY ON
THE PLATFORMS, ALI.
>> WHAT DO YOU DO, YOU’VE GOT
FRIENDS, CO-WORKERS, NEIGHBORS
WHO BELIEVE THIS QANON STUFF.
SHANNON FOLEY MARTINEZ IS, AND I
HOPE YOU’RE SITTING DOWN FOR
THIS, AN EX-NEO-NAZI AND A
CURRENT YALE PROFESSOR WHO
SPECIFICALLY WORKS TO
DERADICALIZE PEOPLE WHO HAVE
FALLEN VICTIM TO RADICALIZATION.
SHANNON
SHANNON, THANK YOU FOR JOINING
US ON THE SHOW.
BEN?
>> SHANNON, THANKS FOR COMING.
WE TALKED A FEW WEEKS AGO FOR A
STORY ABOUT Q AN NO.
>> YES.
>> YOU TOLD ME EXPLICITLY, LIKE,
I DON’T KNOW WHAT I WAS THINKING
WHEN I WAS GOING DOWN THAT WHITE
SUPREMACIST RABBIT HOLE.
WAS IT, LIKE, DID I LOSE
EMPATHY, WHAT WAS HAPPENING AT
THAT TIME?
AND WHAT YOU WERE SAYING IS, AT
THAT POINT YOU DIDN’T THINK YOU
WERE BECOMING A BAD GUY.
THAT’S REALLY WHAT’S HAPPENING
WITH THESE QANON PEOPLE, RIGHT,
THEY DON’T THINK THEY’RE
BECOMING A BAD GUY, THEY THINK
THEY’RE BECOMING A HERO IN THEIR
OWN STORY, RIGHT?
>> SO I’M NOT A YALE PROFESSOR,
I’M A CONSULTANT AT PAN AMERICAN
UNIVERSITY, JUST TO CLEAR THAT
UP.
>> SO YOU’RE ACCUSING ME OF
DISINFORMATION ALREADY, 30
MINUTES INTO THE SHOW.
DON’T CLIP THAT AND PUT THAT ON
THE INTERNET.
GO AHEAD, SHANNON.
>> EVERYBODY ALREADY THINKS THAT
ANYWAY.
SO ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I
DIDN’T RECOGNIZE, WHILE I WAS
RADICALIZING INTO WHAT I WAS
DOING, WAS THAT I WAS CREATING
AN ECHO CHAMBER FOR MYSELF.
IN MY CASE IT WAS A PHYSICAL
ECHO CHAMBER.
I ENDED UP ONLY SPENDING TIME
WHO BELIEVED WHAT I BELIEVED,
ONLY IN SPACES WHERE THIS WAS
ALL THAT WAS GOING ON.
AND I DIDN’T RECOGNIZE THAT THAT
WAS HAPPENING TO ME, THAT MY
BRAIN GOT -- WAS REALLY LIKE
HIJACKED INTO ONLY FRAMING THE
WORLD AROUND THIS IDEOLOGY AND
THESE BELIEFS THAT I WAS
IMMERSING MYSELF IN.
ONE OF THE THINGS THAT’S VERY
IMPORTANT IS THAT THESE ARE
STILL INDIVIDUAL STORIES.
IT’S IMPORTANT FOR US TO TALK
ABOUT THE META, RIGHT?
IT’S IMPORTANT FOR US TO TALK
ABOUT THIS BIGGER, LARGER QANON
THING.
BUT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE PART OF
THIS ARE STILL INDIVIDUAL HUMAN
BEINGS WHO ALL HAVE A STORY
BEHIND HOW THEY GOT THERE.
MOST OF THE TIME THESE STORIES
INVOLVE SOME KIND OF TRAUMA OR
LAYERS OF TRAUMA IN THEIR LIVES.
WE KNOW SPECIFICALLY WHEN WE’RE
TALKING ABOUT WOMEN AND MOMS
FROM THE "ME TOO" MOVEMENT JUST
HOW ENDEMIC SEXUAL ASSAULT AND
SEXUAL VIOLENCE IS FOR WOMEN IN
THE COUNTRY, THAT THE WORLD
FEELS DANGEROUS AND OUT OF
CONTROL TO THESE PEOPLE, AND
THAT THEY’RE LOOKING FOR
SOMETHING THAT HAS -- A
MEANINGFUL CONNECTION TO
SOMETHING GREATER THAN
THEMSELVES THAT THEY HAVEN’T
FOUND ELSEWHERE.
WHEN WE START INTERJECTING THE
IDEA THAT CHILDREN ARE IN
DANGER, OF COURSE MOMS IN
PARTICULAR AND WOMEN ARE LIKE,
OH, WE HAVE TO SAVE THE
CHILDREN.
LIKE WHY HAS NO ONE TOLD ME
ABOUT THIS?
AND SO THEN WHEN THEY HEAR AND
THEY START INVESTIGATING IT,
INTERACTING WITH THESE IDEAS,
THAT THERE’S THIS -- COMING FROM
THIS SENSE OF DEEP
DISEMPOWERMENT, WHEN YOU FEEL
LIKE YOU’VE FOUND THE TRUE
TRUTH, THE REAL FACTS WHICH
HITHERTO HAVE BEEN HIDDEN FROM
YOU, THAT IS VERY ALLURING AND
SAIDEDUCTIVE AND FEELS LIKE
EMPOWERMENT FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE.
THE QANON FOLKS TEND TO BE OLDER
PEOPLE AS OPPOSED TO A LOT OF
THE FURTHER RIGHT WING STUFF AND
ESOTERIC HITLERISM STUFF TENDS
TO BE YOUNGER, TEENAGERS AND
YOUNG ADULTS.
BUT THIS IS OFTEN MIDDLE-AGED
AND OLDER PEOPLE WHO FEEL LIKE
THEY’RE TECH SAVVY BUT AREN’T
ACTUALLY REALLY ALL THAT TECH
SAVVY.
SO THEIR ABILITY TO FACT CHECK
IS OFTEN REALLY LIMITED.
AND THEY THINK THEY ARE.
SO ONE OF THE THINGS, I ALSO
WORK AT HELPING PEOPLE LEAVE
RADICAL VIOLENCE-BASED STUFF.
AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I
HAVE FOUND IS THAT WHEN YOU’RE
TALKING TO PEOPLE WHO ARE
INVOLVED IN CONSPIRACY THEORIES,
THAT THE PROBLEM IS THAT THERE
REALLY ARE CONSPIRACIES.
PART OF THE EXPLOSION OF QANON
IS THAT IT IS BEING EXPLOITED BY
DOMESTIC AND FOREIGN INFLUENCES
TO CREATE AND SOW DISCORD.
BUT THERE ISN’T A SINGLE
CONSPIRACY, RIGHT?
THERE ISN’T ONE DRIVER.
THERE ARE LOTS OF PEOPLE WHO
HAVE POWER, WHO WANT TO MAINTAIN
AND AMPLIFY THEIR POWER.
AND THERE ARE CONSPIRACIES THAT
ARE GOING ON.
BUT THERE ISN’T ONE SINGULAR
CONSPIRACY.
SO HOW TO TALK ABOUT THAT IN A
COMPLEX WAY AND HOW TO INTERJECT
THAT COMPLEXITY INTO WHAT THEY
HAVE, THIS WORLD VIEW THAT THEY
HAVE CREATED, TO NAVIGATE THE
DIFFICULTY FEELING THIS WORLD
THAT FEELS DANGEROUS AND UNSAFE,
AND THAT THEY’RE LOSING SECURITY
THAT THEY ONCE HAD, THROUGH
MULTITUDENOUS DRIVERS.
THERE’S RECESSION, THERE’S
SOCIAL CHANGE, THAT WE’RE
WATCHING THE DISMANTLING,
HOPEFULLY, OF WHITE SUPREMACISTY
WE’RE WATCHING FOREIGN ACTORS,
THE WORLD FEELS DANGEROUS AND
UNPREDICTABLE TO A LOT OF PEOPLE
AND THIS GIVES AN EXPLANATION AS
TO WHY.
>> IT’S A USEFUL EXPLANATION,
SHANNON, WHILE IT’S HARD TO
EMPATHIZE, IT’S USEFUL TO
UNDERSTAND THE DRIVERS ARE
SIMILAR, FEAR, DANGER, AND BEING
OUT OF CONTROL.
THANK YOU FOR SHARING THAT WITH
US.
SHANNON FOLEY MARTINEZ IS A
