Joining me live now here on the programme
on RT International Slavoj Zizek - a philosopher
and international director at the Birkbeck
Institute for the Humanities.
Great to see you today.
Thanks for coming on the programme.
Let's discuss the breaking news here, Mr.
Zizek, that over the death of Fidel Castro,
the age of 90.
Socialist ideas seem to be gaining traction
around the world.
Take the rise of Bernie Sanders in America,
for example.
What do you think Castro's death could mean
to people today who are attracted to leftist
ideas?
Unfortunately, as much as of course Fidel
Castro was a fascinating personality and so
on, I think that at the level of his ideas,
his political practice, and I’m sorry if
I offends some of my leftist friends with
this, he should be forgotten as soon as possible.
You know why?
Because, again, I know what is to admire,
heroic leftist stance, a small country resisting
the world’s biggest superpower, and so on.
But ask yourself sincerely, did Cuba produce
anything new in the sense of a new model of
social practice in economy, in culture, in
political democracy, and so on and so on?
When I visited Cuba a little bit over 10 years
ago, what really depressed me was not human
rights violations and so on, even not economic
efficiency, but this general sense of stagnation.
Nothing moved, people were just waiting.
No creativity, no activity in economy, in
culture, and so on.
It was country just, as the Germans put it,
in ‘stilstand’ – sitting, waiting.
And you know what depressed me even more?
I spoke there with some people, who were I
think ordinary people, and I noticed we walked
in some Havana streets, and I noticed how
many buildings are falling down and so on.
And they told me, ‘but you see that's our
heroic greatness, things are falling down,
even old buildings you cannot repair them,
but no matter how much we suffer, how much
we have to renounce, we remain faithful to
our revolutionary cause.’
Mr. Zizek, doesn’t that tell you something
though?
Obviously you're talking about your visit
to Cuba.
You're talking about failed and old antiquated
infrastructure.
You're talking about a stalled economy here.
But then you're mentioning that people are
saying ‘this is thanks to our great leader.’
So not in some way the people … it's not
so important to them the standards of living
as it is the reverence to who was Fidel Castro.
Yeah, but again, when a regime … revolution
… legitimizes itself by this reference to
suffering as you see, ‘even our economic
decay proves our greatness,’ this is a very
sad situation, which is why if I make a remark,
which sounds maybe tasteless, but I think
it's deeply tragic … In psychoanalysis,
we call this reference to renunciation ‘symbolic
castration.’
So basically the regime's legitimization was
legitimization which … or fidelity to castration.
Well, no wonder the leader was called Fidel
Castro.
It's a very sad thing, you know, because Castro
was great in mobilizing people, big events
and so on and so on.
If there is a lesson to be learned from the
fiascos of the 20th century is that the real
test of a revolution is when big events are
over.
What happens after the wild night when things
return to normal.
How do things change in everyday life for
the people.
Well, I suppose Mr. Zizek, that that should
potentially be the next question.
What is next for Cuba then?
I don't think there is a big thing.
There are just the obvious choices: either,
but I don't think they will, they walk carefully
around this North Korean way, softly into
capitalism, not quite; they go full way the
Chinese way, party remains in power, but economy
is liberalized; or they are they openly embrace
Western liberal democracy, which I think is
also very dangerous.
Because it’s clear that then the pressure
of the United States’ human immigration
to reprivatize all and so on, would be a catastrophe.
I can just hope that some soft way will be
negotiated where in spite of reintroducing
capitalism some social achievement …
Alright, Mr. Zizek, let's jump back into the
… just quick … briefly here.
Because ultimately the improvement, the so-called
improvement of America-Cuba relations - John
Kerry in July this year reopened the US Embassy
in Havana.
Of course it was closed in 1961.
We now have Donald Trump poised to man the
helm in the White House.
Not just a future of Cuba, what is the future
of Cuba-America relations?
Well, I don't know enough about it, I just
think that paradoxically, if Trump imposes
a harsher line, it may paradoxically even
give an upper hand to hardliners in Cuba.
I think that every intelligent anti-communist
in United States knew that Obama's way was
the right way to undermine the system from
within.
So I .. but again, the choice will be the
choice of Cubans themselves.
The predicament of Cuba is for me just a sign,
an indication, a symptom if you want, of the
great problem of today's left - from SYRIZA
to Latin America: great at mobilizing the
people but then the inability to propose a
new efficient socio-economic system.
So you're talking essentially, you're describing
socio-economic stagnation when it comes to
standard of living in Cuba.
And as you suggest the wider region to Latin
America as well.
You're not painting a very rosy picture of
Fidel Castro.
Fair enough.
We've been getting mixed reaction incoming
from all around the world today Mr. Zizek.
In fact, some media outlets calling today
‘the death of a tyrant.’
Did you think that's potentially an image
that will dominate?
No, no, no.
I don't go so far.
I’m still a leftist.
Even I try to be a communist.
I look I draw here a clear line between communism
and fascism.
Fashion, where to put it simply, bad people
who promised to do bad things, they took power,
they did bad things.
Communism is even at its worst, even in Stalinism
and elsewhere a genuine tragedy.
Things which were meant in a noble way, which
had emancipatory potential, turned terribly
wrong.
And I hope that we will use Castro’s death
also as an instigation to rethink what went
wrong and how to do it better.
