Marshall: Hi, Stan?
Stan: Hey, Marshall.
Marshall: Let's podcast.
Stan: Let's do it. It's called Draftsmen.
Marshall: All right. Woo!
[intro music]
Haven't seen you in a while, what you been
up to?
Stan: A lot of things.
I've been prepping for the conventions.
Well, we did comic-con a few months ago.
That was really cool.
I recorded a lot of people.
We've been releasing some videos of me interviewing
people.
Marshall: Yeah.
Stan: I've been preparing for a Lightbox and
CTN.
By the time this episode comes out though,
I would have already been at Lightbox I believe.
Marshall: Okay.
You're getting ready for that?
Stan: We're getting ready for that.
Marshall: Good.
Stan: What have you been up to Marshall?
Marshall: I've been teaching.
We did a draftsmanship boot camp in Orange
County at Cura studios that went really well.
It was two days of six hours of lots of exercises.
I taught a lot during it too but there was
a lot of pencil and pen time.
Stan: It was sold out, right?
Marshall: Yeah, it was sold out.
Stan: Alright.
Marshall: And a few people came there because
of this podcast.
Stan: Oh, really?
Marshall: We had one student who came two
weekends from Colorado, knowing about it from this podcast.
So, this podcast has been something that's
been important in my life.
It's bringing students who make pilgrimages.
They are actually traveling to study which
I think is a good thing.
I think that when you make it so that it's
an actual set the time aside, book the hotel
room, do the traveling, that it somehow enhances
the seriousness of it.
Stan: That is true.
Marshall: I've had some of my most significant
educational times like a week at a retreat
because everything else was set aside, you
go into another world.
Stan: Yeah, you focus.
Marshall: Yeah. Have you done that? Have you had
pilgrimages that were important
to you?
Stan: Yeah.
I went on a plein air road trip with a friend.
Marshall: Really? How long?
Stan: Let's see, we did - it was a full day.
How long did it take to drive up the coast
to San Francisco?
Marshall: Oh, it takes up pretty much a day. Yeah.
Stan: A day.
Yeah, I think it took longer than a day though
because we would stop.
When we see something we would stop and go
out and paint.
Marshall: Okay, yeah.
Would take longer than a day.
Stan: Yeah.
Would take longer, yeah.
We would paint for like an hour or two.
Marshall: When did you do this?
Stan: Oh, man.
This was like maybe six years ago - five or
six years ago.
Well, we were going to Monterey actually because
there was the plein air convention in Monterey that year.
And so, we did a road trip and then we stopped
there and then we stayed in Monterey for like
five days and painted a bunch there.
That's cool.
Marshall: I've always wondered how - I love
the California coast and just the whole West
Coast all the way up Oregon and Washington
so much.
Thought about how nice it would be to do a
summer of a road trip all the way along up
the beaches and every town that you stop in
that has an art teacher or a studio, you would
go there and you would study with that student.
Stan: Oh, that is a lot though.
Marshall: It would be a lot, I know, but it
was just a fantasy.
I was just dreaming, maybe.
Stan: Okay, cool.
Marshall: Okay.
What are we going to talk about today?
Stan: You bring it up.
Marshall: I'm the one who got it?
Okay, I think we're going to respond.
This one touched a little button.
Stan: Uh-oh, let's press some little buttons.
Marshall: Yeah.
I love these podcasts.
This from Stan, opened a Pandora's box.
Stan, "I feel there is no point in learning
history because..."
Maybe I should have let you say it.
You want to go ahead and say that?
Stan: That is a bad - I mean, that is a quote
but then I did say more after that.
Marshall: You did, the dot dot dot, yeah.
Stan: The dot dot dot is important.
I acknowledged that studying history is important.
Marshall: You did.
Stan: I don't do it very much but I should. Continue.
Marshall: You've already repented.
Stan: Sorry. I'm I being defensive?
Marshall: Marshall pulls you up on that in
his usual very kind way.
But this is a huge problem with Millennials
and trying to teach Millennials their lack
of reverence for the history of the field
they are studying!
There is underscores in between each word
and then there's two exclamation points and
there's underscores in between the exclamation
point.
Stan: Is this the episode where we just rip
on commenters?
Charlie: I feel like we should have a big
airhorn at the end of that.
Stan: Wow! Well, I got a problem with baby boomers.
Marshall: Yeah, this can turn into the Millennial,
the whole generation that started the Vietnam
The whole generation, every single person.
War, and - okay.
The first thing I want to address about this
it would, you know, I do understand this is
someone who is a teacher.
And I'm going to tell you my suspicion, this
is someone who is a teacher who is teaching
in a university or in a place where students
come in and they have to study.
Stan: Oh, okay.
It's probably a bad school.
Marshall: Well, let's not go that far.
Stan: Okay.
Marshall: Let's just say, because paper chasers
- it's easy to make fun of paper.
Paper chasers are people that they just don't
care that much about the subject, they care
about getting that piece of paper at the end.
This class is a notch on my belt.
This degree is going to prove that I have
the badge.
And so it lends itself to an energy that says,
"what's the minimum I have to do?", and so
when you're hoping to make a connection of
enthusiasm and love of the craft with a person
where that's their energy is, it's a tough
fit.
So, I do want to, since I'm so old in defense
of Millennials, I am around a number of Millennials
who care deeply about history.
In fact, some of them know it better than
I do.
Some of them know -
Stan: Sean.
Marshall: Sean is an example, yeah.
Sean knows all sorts of things about any subject
you bring up.
he's an English well of it.
With music history, I've got some students
that know old blues.
They know the chronology.
I've got a number of students who know the
numbers of the Beatles albums as they came
out, the order they came out and the years
that they came out, better than I do.
And I remember the years that they came out.
So, there's that, is that stereotyping Millenials
is one thing that we have to watch out for
because it just goes back and forth - stereotyping
millenials, stereotyping boomers.
I don't know what the Gen X is and I don't
know what the next one is but you got this category.
You happen to be born in a certain year, therefore
you've got these qualities.
You may have had enough bad experiences as
I have had too, that just a lot of students
that go through the colleges, they want to
do the minimum.
So, there's the first thing.
The people who do love it, let's focus on
them.
The people who care about history.
One of the reasons they care about it is because
once you open up the Pandora's box of what
happened before all of the wave of the stuff
that's going now, there's almost always something
that gets people excited.
I saw it with the online students back at
2010 through 2012.
As soon as they discovered Bouguereau.
As soon as they discovered - there's that
Salomon guy, I don't know if you know his paintings.
A number of the pre-raphaelite.
And I know that there are people who hate
the pre-raphaelites but forget about that.
The pre-raphaelites for craft, these are young
students who care about the craft of painting,
they discover the pre-raphaelites, they go
crazy for it and then they collect it all
and then they examine it.
And then they find out that some of these
artists were better at this and some are better
at that, and some of them had their career
cut short.
And they're just often running with the kind
of energy that a kid has when they're interested
in something.
So, I am very big on history but I am also
not big on trying to get people interested
in history who just aren't that interested.
Stan: Oh, man.
Where do I start Marshall?
Marshall: You start wherever you want to because
I've got a few things to say.
Stan: I will continue about something you
said.
So, he is pointing out that, you know, he
said that Millennials are not interested in history.
And if you're going to play that game where
you blame a generation for something, let's
start with your own and maybe consider that
maybe your generation sucks at teaching history.
I'm not going to play that game though because
I don't think that's true.
Marshall: Yeah.
And also he might not have been saying - what
he was saying is because I think he's a teacher,
I think that he's found it frustrating that
I get put into a room with all of these nitwits
that could care less about the thing I care
about.
And so, that's where that kind of thing comes
from I think.
Stan: Well, he did say that it was Millennials.
Marshall: He did.
A problem with teaching Millennials as the
history of the craft that they are studying.
Stan: I know that - I was taught history in
a way that would make me hate history.
It was a bunch of - it is a series of facts.
Marshall: What a shame!
Stan: Yeah. I don't love it because I never enjoyed.
I never had a teacher who had a passion for
it and taught it well.
I was lucky in other fields.
I had really good art teachers, but I was
not very lucky as far as having a good history teacher.
So, every generation has bad history teachers,
good history teachers, people who are interested
in history and people who are not interested
in history.
Just stop stereotyping millions of people
into one group.
Marshall: Okay.
Stan: Not you.
Marshall: I won't do it.
Everybody -
Stan: Everyone, just stop.
Marshall: There's one stereotype that is true,
and that is that every human being stereotypes.
You can't keep from it.
It's just a way to survive by being efficient.
Every human being.
Stan: But still, stop.
Marshall: Unless it is for fun.
Stan: Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah, yeah, if it's a joke and you just
-
Marshall: When it's in affection it's great.
Stan: Yes.
Marshall: Okay.
Stan: Cool.
Marshall: So, the stereotyping is one thing
we have to get beyond.
Stan: Yeah.
We're not lazy and entitled and all that other
crap.
I'm always preaching against laziness.
Marshall: Yeah, I know you are.
When - I've heard some people that have stereotyped
Millennials as entitled.
And I thought, "Well, what about Stan?
What about my son?
What about some of these Millennials that
I know that are some of the hardest working,
most forwardly ambitious, most proactive people,
that are in my life personally?"
And I would say that most the most proactive
and heading towards success people that are
in my life personally are Millennials.
So, I'm not really contaminated with that
stereotype and I might have been if I was
putting more attention into what you sometimes
have to when you are teaching in a classroom.
Okay. But we already said that.
Stan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I want to keep going. Just keep bashing this guy’s comment.
Marshall: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's keep moving.
Yeah, yeah, we've got to move on beyond the
stereotyping thing.
Let's take the core of this topic, not the
stereotyping, but the people who are not that
interested in history-
Stan: Right.
Marshall:  Who are students. Maybe they're ambitious but they're just saying, "Hey, you know, I don't need
to know about what happened in the history
of my craft.
Let's start out with something that might
be a surprise."
It's not necessary to know the history of
your craft to succeed financially.
The proof of this, I don't know that much
about Justin Bieber, I don't know that knowing
more of the history would have made him more
of a sensation because it's not necessary.
And there are many other stories like that
of people who don't know anything.
Even the Beatles sang a song, I don't know
if it was their original song, but it was
Roll Over Beethoven?
So, it is like there is this young defiant
shake your fist energy of history and you
are still going to do very well.
I had a teacher, Graham Booth, who taught
type design.
And he had us understanding the difference
between serifs and non sans-serif type.
He had us do a lot of hand lettering of type.
He even had us take another class where we
had to slug type out of lead and cast it and
understand what happened in print shops historically.
And he felt that this will make you a better
designer.
He wasn't just old school, he also was an
innovator when computer started to change graphic design.
He was right there on the forefront of it.
But I admired that because he had this long
reach back into the past and he was also very
forward oriented.
Robert Beverly Hale also wrote the, I think
Encyclopedia Brittanica it might have been,
Entry on Drawing.
Stan: Oh, I thought you said he wrote the
Encyclopedia.
Marshall: He wrote the entry on drawing.
And he has a tremendous respect for the old
masters and the old craft.
And he also had, I am told, a tremendous respect
for what happened in the 20th century and
the disassembling of it.
There's something about that broad view that's
nice.
But I want to get back to Graham Booth.
Some of the best type designers don't know
or really care that much about all of the
technical evolution of how type changed.
They just love shapes.
They love how you can go thick and thin and
make little curlicues on the end of that.
I don't know how much Rick Griffin knew about
the history of type.
He may or may not have, but I do know that
he was endlessly inventive when it came to
playing around with letter forms.
So, knowing history is valuable, but I would
not say that it's a game changer, I would
not say that it's necessary, I would say that
it is something that will deal with what it
is. Go ahead. Take from this.
Stan: My own personal story, I mean, I think
that I'm relatively successful right now in
my career and I don't know much history.
Sometimes, ignorance can be good because like,
if I put more of my attention on learning
history, it might have taken some of my attention
away from just learning just the pure science
behind drawing and painting.
I was ultra focus on that and had no focus
on the history.
Marshall: Knowledge can be burdensome too.
It can slow you down because you have to think
through too many options.
Was there may be a reason that we're born
not knowing history?
And that we're going to get it in bits and
pieces.
Now, I've got a question for you - What makes
you interested in anything historical?
Stan: Usually stories.
Well, history.
Like when it becomes human and there's an
actual story to it and an experience you can learn from.
That's what I like.
And I know, that's the proper way to learn
history.
That we've talked about this.
But when it's a series of facts and names
to remember, that's when I don't like it.
And when I talk to a lot of people who know
a lot about art history, the conversation
becomes that.
Exactly that.
It's not stories, its name-dropping.
And it pushes me away.
Marshall: There is, I think is a hunger that
naturally leads, children do it.
You know, they - "tell me about what happened
with grandpa?
Tell me about what it was like when you were
a kid?"
They are naturally wanting to know the difference
between now and then.
And those things, you can't keep that from
happening.
They will get curious.
And I think the same thing happens in our
artistic development.
That there comes a point where we want to
know, 'this is so hard for me, was it hard
for people before me?'
This is - this is enjoyable but there is something
that I'm wondering whether I could get away
with doing this.
Is there anyone who has done that before?
That is where history becomes relevant because
it is sort of like, if knowledge is like food,
you don't want to just take in all of this
food and not have any hunger for it.
You usually have hunger for it because you
want to do something so I need something that
will nurture me and strengthen me to do it.
And that is where the study of history becomes
a joy.
Reading biographies - I think if you're going
into any profession, isn't it satisfying to
look at the people who've done the best in
that profession and read how their career
changes happen?
How they had disadvantages that made them rise to the occasion?
Stan: Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, I told you how I was listening to
a lot of interviews from mixergy.
Marshall: Mixergy.
Yeah.
Stan: And that is kind of history.
I mean, it is not that long ago but it is
history of successful companies from, you
know, a generation ago and how they did it.
And you can learn from that.
And I really enjoy that.
I read Elon Musk's biography and I really
enjoyed that.
So, like when I can relate it and I can learn
from it, I really enjoy it.
Marshall: Yeah. It gives you context. It lets you see where you are.
It is like when you live someplace and you
say, "I want to pull the mat back and see
where I live in relationship to other places."
That can be satisfying in its own right but
there is another thing that it gives.
It gives ideas.
When you look at the old stuff and you see
how tame or how wild or how different it was
than things are now, it can, to the creative
observer and to the creative producer, stimulate
things that you would never do by just looking
at what is going on right now.
And you're right, history as a story is the
great secret.
That is why the best popular historian to
me right now is Ken Burns.
I mean, I didn't discover him until 1990 and
I've only seen maybe a third of the documentaries
he's done, but he is one of the best storytellers
I know.
And some people don't like his stuff because
it goes slowly but that is because they won't
sit and give it 100% attention.
Those documentaries are just great.
He always finds a story and he always brings
it around to the human condition and what
it's like to live in a human body and be in
life.
Civil War is a great one to start with.
I've already mentioned it.
But just the first episode of the Civil War
will have you - If you aren't moved by the
first episode of the Civil War by Ken Burns,
1989 then don't bother with the rest of his stuff.
But if you are moved by it, then you might
go to The West.
I just watched his one on the history of radio,
An Empire of The Air, it was just great.
So, history is a treasure chest.
You can keep digging into it and the more
you dig into it, especially of the last 100
years because so much of it been documented
- the last 200 years.
But even before that, you start going back
thousands and thousands of years and we have
still got writings of them and you start to
put together all the curiosity that it can arouse.
It's just worth a lifetime.
Stan: Yeah.
Have you listened to Dan Carlin's podcast?
Marshall: No, I don't know it.
What is it?
Stan: Sean and my brother recommended it
to me.
They are extremely long -
Charlie: Hardcore histories.
Stan: Hardcore history, right.
I've listened to a very small portion of it
but I went through the whole one about, I
believe it was World War I.
But yeah, really enjoyed.
It was like 10 hours or maybe even more.
Charlie: Yeah, a lot of those can go on.
They are like in three-hour chunks.   
 Stan: They are extremely long.
But he's so good at telling the story and
getting you in the - feeling like you are
part of that world.
That it, yeah, it almost like just watching
a show on Netflix or something, you know,
but it's real.
It's true.
So, yeah.
Marshall: Well, there is another thing that
it prompts, is it prompts appreciation.
I find that even in that - whatever it was,
10 hours or so, 10 to 12 hours of looking
back at the American West.
Every time I would step out of my house, everywhere
I would walk around in Southern California,
I would look around at it and recognize there
were no refrigerators, there was no running
water, there was none of the stuff that I
have and it gave me a context for appreciation
of how much I've got access to now.
That all through human history people haven't.
People didn't have access to podcasts all
through human history.
In 19 or excuse me, about 2004, I went to
another Robert McKee four-day seminar of his
story workshop which I had gone to many times
before.
This was back when he used to hang around
and smoke cigarettes with the students at the breaks.
And I came into one of his conversations with
several people that I wasn't in on the first
part and I picked up in a moment that they
were trashing James Cameron's Titanic.
Whining about it for this and this and the
stereotypes in.
And can you believe that?
And they were a number of them that were all
in agreement.
And there was a pause.
And often what happens when people speak negatively
about something, you recognize how much time
you've spent negatively about something and
it's time to pay at a compliment.
And McKee took a puff on a cigarette and said,
"Yeah, but you got to hand it to Cameron.
He was the one that saw what this culture
needed in a poor little rich girl story."
And then, one of the other people said, "Yeah,
it hadn't happened since..." and then they
named it one of these poor little - yeah,
before that was.
So, this was a group of people who knew the
history of the genre of poor little rich girl
stories and how important those are.
Two girls who, whatever their problems are,
they want to see what it is like in the life
of a really rich girl and say, "she's got
the same problems with her mom and her family
and her issues that I've got."
And so, James Cameron, whether he knows history
or not, I think he does, but I don't know
whether he consciously decided, I'm going
to make this a poor little rich girl story
to scratch a cultural itch or whether his
instincts just happened to be right.
But the fact is he did it and then put all
of that craft into making an impressive movie.
So, there is another reason for knowing history,
is that when you are putting your work out
into the culture, you are putting it out into
a culture.
A culture that you are a part of.
And there will always be historical precedence.
There will always be people who've done this
before and sometimes their success came about
because of that not that you can necessarily
recreate it.
The Beatles made an astonishing - I remember
when it happened.
And it happened just a few months after President
Kennedy had been assassinated.
And there had been a number of other things
that had gone on in this country.
And people were in a state and then when they
had something to lock on to - I think it was
George Harrison who said, "We expected that
if we were given a fair hearing that we would
be a successful band.
But we had no idea that we would have touched
a nerve the way we did and it just went through the world."
So, those things are at least interesting
and they also can be informative.
They can be instructive for looking around
and figuring "what is this culture really need?
What is it that I have to offer?
What bugs me?
What might be bugging other people?"
And that can influence where we go with what
we do.
Stan: Yeah. Well, and if you also hear enough stories,
you can start seeing overlaps and patterns
happening and you can learn from those and
apply them to your own life.
Marshall: Yeah, biographies.
I mean reading Dr. Seuss's biography was very
convicting to me he was great as a children's
book writer and illustrator.
He was terrible as a collaborator, as a filmmaker,
he was a control freak.
He made people miserable when you tried to
work with him.
And the thing I got out of that is that when
you've got your niche, you may try some other things.
But he wasted a lot of time and put himself
and other people through a good deal of misery
as well doing things that he was not fit to
do.
So, you just read one person's story whom
you have admired a lot and you're going to
spend six to ten hours reading about their
life and you look at the pattern and then
you look at the pattern of your own life and
you say, "Let's not carry through with that path."
Stan: Alright, let's do a voice mail.
Charlie: Already.
Voicemail: Hi Proko. My name is Ortwein.
I follow you from Strasbourg a lovely city
in France.
Thank you very much, first of all, for your
Anatomy courses, they really have helped me a lot.
I hear you guys often talk about Rayleigh
method and Loomis, but do you know Burne Hogarth?
What is your opinion about him?
He also has a constructive approach in drawing
and I find his pieces very inspiring.
Have you studied these techniques and what
are the pros and cons of his approach?
Thank you.
Marshall: Should I go or you want to go?
Stan: I have a pretty quick one.
I've used his books only to reference other
thing and just get minor inspirations from it.
I know I used his book on hands a lot just
to see how he designs knuckles and tendons,
but I feel like a lot of his drawings just
don't have bones in them.
They're noodle people.
I don't like his drawing.
And it's really difficult to study a book
where I don't like the way that they designed
the anatomy.
His anatomy might be accurate and you could
get information from it but it's like, why
not just go to ratchet and goldfinger to get
that same information?
That is my take on it.
I know a lot of people love him but I am not
crazy on his drawings.
Marshall: Okay.
You want me to go?
Stan: Yeah.
Marshall: I spent a week with Burne Hogarth.
Stan: With him?
Marshall: Yeah, in 1989, I think was about
when 1989 turned to 1990, went to spend a
week with him at Scottsdale Artists School
in Arizona.
My buddy JD and I went.
Was our pilgrimage.
And it was, oh gosh, Hogarth was a character.
If you ask around and want Hogarth stories,
you will hear many of them.
I can do a pretty good impersonation of him
but I'm not going to do it right now because
I have to get up on my feet and throw chalk
and tell people and yell at them and shake fists.
He was endlessly interesting just because
he was so keyed up and ticked off and angry
and warning students about 
"bring in the form of the figure!"
Stan: That's great.
Marshall: But his book, Dynamic Figure Drawing
which is the one that I copied all the way through.
Stan: It delivers on the title.
It is extremely dynamic.
Almost too much.
Marshall: Yeah.
I copied all the way through that book but
I didn't learn a thing partly because I didn't
have a teacher explaining it and if you try
to read his books, they are not going to enlighten
you, they're probably going to confuse you.
I would read those paragraphs multiple times
and stop and think, 'what did I just read?'
And then read them again and stop and think
what I just read and I wore myself out.
Because that was -
Stan: Why?
Marshall: It was the opposite of what I mentioned
a few weeks ago about how Jack Hamm and Andrew
Loomis and Stephen Peck have a spirit of nurturing
the student, of gently helping the student.
They are a conscientious guide that say, "Oh,
you could trip there.
Now, watch out!
Let's just take your foot a little slower
there and we'll be okay."
And Hogarth does not have that spirit at all.
It's a slam down you know, the gavel has come
down and this is the way it is.
And so, if you don't get it, they are - those
paragraphs with the exception of Dynamic Light
and Shade.
Dynamic Light and Shade is easier to read,
it's got better text.
The other books, it is really, really hard
to read.
I suggest don't read them.
But here is the advantage of Hogarth, is that
he was such a remarkable draftsman that it
occurred to me when he would demonstrate and
put lines around things that you could - you
could take an alligator body and you could
have him slice through it this way and he
would know the cross section.
You could slice through it at an angle and
he would know how those things would stretch out.
He was just extremely knowledgeable and skilled.
But his aesthetic - one woman in my class,
I use Hogarth stuff when I teach anatomy,
one woman said, "I'm sorry that I leave your
class so often but every time you show one
of those pictures by Burne Hogarth, I start
to get physically ill."
Stan: What?
Physically ill?
Marshall: And so I said, "Okay.
I understand."
Stan: Wait, why?
Marshall: Because the aesthetic is that, you
know, all these superheroes in these dynamic
points, there's an artificiality.
Stan: Oh!
Okay, yeah.
Marshall: You see it most in his last one,
The Dynamic Wrinkles and Drapery.
When you look at those characters that he
has got in motion, there is an artificiality
in there that is so amped up.
It's amped up almost to grotesquerie.
But I don't trash Hogarth's books because
they are great for showing how simplified
forms relate to organic form.
And even though I don't recommend dynamic
anatomy because it's so artificial, there
is something valuable in going through all
the muscles of the body and exaggerating them.
He turns them into balloons as much as anything
else.
And what I prefer over Bridgman, even though
Bridgman is harder to understand, is Bridgman
turns those muscles into rock and he chisels
them.
Hogarth much more like swollen people on steroids.
Stan: Yeah.
Swollen noodles.
Noodles that have been sitting in soup for
too long.
Marshall: Yeah.
If you seek through the internet, 'people's
opinions about Hogarth', you will be busy
for a long while.
And you're going to find praise from people
that it helped a lot.
I mean, he help me.
Stan: I did reference Hogarth in many of my
Anatomy lessons.
So, you can definitely get good information
from it, you just got to be careful.
I say the same thing about Bridgman, it is
like, there is so much good stuff in there
but be careful because there is little booby
traps in there.
Marshall: Yeah.
Yeah.
The pictures can be useful.
And then to have any peers that are also studying
anatomy they can look at it and offer negative feedback.
I think I will tell one story.
It was in this one week that we paid all this
money for her to do this pilgrimage.
Burn demonstrated and drew the entire time.
And would then turn and lecture and then go
back and turn and lecture.
And then by day two he was talking more about
politics than he was about Anatomy.
And by the time we got to day three, he was
on everything about political stuff, about
the oil crisis, about how it can be solved,
about religion and mysticism and the problems
of this and that.
And one woman, I don't know where she was
from but she had an accent, and she said,
"You are great artist and I have traveled
around the world to be with you this week
so that I could learn from you and you do
not teach me.
You talk about this and you talk about that."
And Burn looked at her while she was talking
and he looked at us and he looked at several
of us to see if any of us were going to defend
him, and we all sat there and we didn't defend him.
And he backed off and he taught beautifully
that afternoon.
Stan: Okay.
Marshall: And then the next day, Thursday,
he was in pretty good form and somewhere in
the afternoon he started to get off on to
something about whatever the president who,
I don't even remember which president was
at the time, and that woman said, "Legs."
And somebody else said, "Legs."
And then, several said, "Legs."
And he picked up the cue immediately and went
right back to what he was talking about which
was the anatomy of the leg.
I also found that even when he was teaching,
the rhythm as he explained all of these muscles,
I already knew anatomy at that time, but if
I was a beginner I would have been completely
lost because he was just saying..
And if you didn't know it...
Stan: Right.
He wasn't teaching it.
Marshall: Right.
And so I thought, the better thing to do,
because I was also drawing while he was drawing,
I thought, 'this is a better investment of
money, just watch him.'
And I watched how he could put a line on any
form and knew it as a cross contour and when
I came away from that, I had a higher standard
of what competent draftsmanship was.
Stan: Yeah.
Marshall: Also, you know, he did those Tarzan's.
I don't know if you know.
He did some really remarkable comic book work
in the mid 20th century.
Do you know them?
Stan: No.
Marshall: Because you don't know history. Okay.
Stan: Whoa! Wow!
Marshall: Let's not go back to that.
Stan: Are you a baby boomer!
Are you a baby boomer?
Marshall: I am definitely a baby boomer.
Stan: Okay.
Marshall: Yeah.
I was born before the Beatles.
Stan: Okay.
Marshall: Well, after World War II.
Hey, you know there's another - I'll bring
it, just one other thing about history.
Another thing about studying history is that
it sets standards.
The standards of historical illustrators in
the early part of the 20th century, the standards
of the pen and ink illustrators.
Their standards were so high that to study
them, just the bar is higher and it can make
you look at that.
So, I think that is what my online students
were getting so excited about.
That they look at all of this painting that's
happening today and then they go back a 100,
150, 200 years and they say, "Can you believe
the subtlety?
Look at those layers of color.
Look at all of that awareness.
Look at that knowledge and skill in that paint".
So, there's another reason is that the standards
at this time for artists are not particularly high.
There is a lot of exciting stuff.
But when you look at when it was tougher to
get in, it can inspire you.
Stan: Okay.
Marshall: Okay.
Now, go ahead.
I can tell, the wheels are going on inside
your head of trying to figure out, 'let's
see what else did the baby boomers do?'
Stan: I was just curious, about, you said
the standars were not high.
Marshall: They elected Reagan.
Stan: I was like, "well what?
I mean, they're not high".
It depends on which field you look at.
Marshall: Okay, go ahead.
Stan: Right.
Well, no.
I mean, like why are the standards lower in
like let's say the fine art world or in animation?
Marshall: I can tell you a couple examples.
Stan: Okay.
Marshall: A couple of my colleagues who are
illustrators decided that they wanted to get
better and they were going to do a study of
hands from Norman Rockwell, Leyendecker and others.
They were just going to do, I think it was
a hand a day or hand a week or something.
They did not carry through with it for that
long but the one thing they came out with
is these illustrators new hands.
They were just great at hands.
Stan: They could have studied Jeremy Lipking's
hands and just as fine.
Marshall: Yeah, that's because the Jeremy
Lipking is really good.
Stan: I know.
They are studying the best of the best of
those generations.
I mean, you're comparing our world right now
and you may be comparing everyone, but why
not just take the best of the best, Jeremy
Lipking?
Marshall: Let me tell you why.
Stan: Uh-huh.
Marshall: Because Jeremy Lipking is now.
Stan: Yeah.
Because he is good.
Marshall: And so, everybody is copying Craig
Mullins.
Everybody is looking at the people who are
so hot and happening now.
And so you get this wake.
Stan: What?
Marshall: It happened with Drew Struzan.
Drew Struzan defined what movie poster illustration
could be in the 1980s and in a major way.
I mean there was also David Grove and others,
but he was the main one and so there was this
huge industry of illustrators who were doing
second and third rate Drew Struzan.
Stan: I disagree.
I think everybody is studying Sargent and
Sorolla and Norman Rockwell and Frazetta.
You have a list that everyone studies from
the past.
It is the same thing as you have a small list
of now.
Marshall: Okay.
Stan: The list you mentioned of the people
with the hands that they did, those are the
same hands that like I did when I studied.
Marshall: But that is because you've been
in a good environment that digs into history
and says, "Here are some of the best."
Stan: Yeah.
But you're bringing up the point that if it's
now, you're studying the same one that everyone
else is studying.
Marshall: Drew Struzan when I first met him,
I asked him a question that he laughed in
my face.
I said, "What airbrush do you use?"
A technical question.
But when pressed on this stuff, he said that,
"He learned to draw", and I'm quoting him
exactly here because I wrote it down, said,
"I learned to draw from Rembrandt, Daumier
and Pontormo, I learned composition from Cezanne
and Degas and I learned color from Monet."
So, he has got this treasure chest of history
and he said my color will be like that.
My line quality will be like Pontormo.
My layouts will be like - you have got a lot
of Michelangelo in there, you have got a lot
of Mucha in there, you got a lot a Leyendecker
in there, he didn't even mention them.
But I think that part of what contributed
to his greatness - I mean, he would have been
great in any era I think.
But I think part of what contributed to it
is that he pulled from stuff that wasn't happening
now and then consolidated it into stuff that
is happening now.
When we saw that Alice Cooper album cover,
we didn't know that it was Leyendecker.
He did that Tony Orlando and Dawn, we didn't
know that was a Leyendecker style.
We just knew it looked cool.
And it looked cool in the 70s when nobody
knew who Leyendecker was.
It is just that the aesthetic had established
itself and will never go.
Leyendecker and Mucha keep coming back, Sergeant
keep coming back because they will never go
out of style for not for long.
Stan: I think it is just as useful to study
masters who are currently living.
Marshall: It is but our topic is history.
Who's making the argument for digging into
the treasure chest and not just looking at
the stuffs on the knick-knack shelf that you
bought this week at IKEA.
Stan: That's not fair
Marshall: Sure it is, but I'm a boomer.
Stan: Oh, man.
Alright.
Well, is that it?
Oh, no.
[laughter] We leave it at that?
Do we still have what's your thang?
Marshall: We do.
That's right.
You go first.
I have been talking a lot.
Stan: Yeah.
Alright my thing this week is Jazza's Jazzy
Art Box.
Marshall: Jazza's jazzy art box?
Stan: Yeah.
Marshall: Tell me more.
Stan: Do you know Jazza?
Marshall: He's the art instructor on the Internet.
Stan: Well, he doesn't instruct anymore.
Marshall: Oh, he doesn't?
I didn't know that.
Stan: Yeah.
He does more like entertainment videos, art
entertainment stuff. Challenges.
Stuff that's really fun to watch.
He announced that he doesn't want to teach
anymore on YouTube.
Marshall: Okay.
Stan: He wants to just explore, I think creativity
and stuff.
But he sent me an art box of supplies.
This is kind of similar to the the black wing
thing.
If you send me free stuff I'm gonna open it
on the show.
Marshall: Do you have it?
Stan: Yeah, I have it.
Let me go - I actually haven't opened it yet.
Marshall: Is that right?
Wow!
Stan: Alright.
Jazza's Jazzy Art Box.
And again, I apologize for the listeners because
I'm about to open it.
Marshall: But listen, listen.
Stan: Oh, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
That was me failing that rip tape.
Marshall: He's got a key.
Stan: Alright.
Marshall: Wow!
Stan: Oh, yeah!
So, you're supposed to cut out this face,
that is Jazza's cartoon of himself.
Marshall: Okay.
Stan: And you're supposed to put it on your
face and hashtag him.
Marshall: Okay.
Stan: #jazzyartbox
Marshall: He writes your name in it?
Stan: Oh, hey!
He included a letter.
Marshall: And he even drew a skull.
Stan: Yeah.
And it says a "Stan Proko" and then "Penko"
in parentheses.
Marshall: I see.
Stan: And then he drew Skelly and he says,
'pretty accurate huh?'
Marshall: Yeah.
Stan: Yeah.
Should I read it?
Marshall: Why not?
Stan: "Dear Stan, I can't begin to say how
much I lo-" what the.
I'm just kidding.
That is not what it says. It says
"I can't begin to say how inspired by both
your content and the way you run such an awesome business.
You are truly trained the next generation
of artists to be all that they can be.
I hope you enjoy my little gift box and wanted
to thank you for many years of learning and inspiration.
All the best my friend.
Jos."
His name is Josiah.
Thank you Jazza Josiah.
`
Marshall: That's Jazza's name is Josiah?
Stan: Yeah.
Marshall: Okay.
Stan: Josiah Brooks.
That is nice.
Marshall: It is.
Stan: That is a nice letter.
Marshall: It is very complimentary and true
to form.
Stan: Well, okay.
So, what's in here?
We got, oh, looks like it's a list of everything
that's in here.
We got a bookmark.
We got a print.
Marshall: You sure do.
Stan: And here's the supplies.
So, I guess he put together these supplies.
This is stuff that he actually uses when he
draws and so he contacted all these suppliers
and put together this box.
I guess the biggest thing in here that he
put together was his own marker set.
See he's got his face on it.
And he chose these colors.
Marshall: It's called spectrum?
Stan: Oh, Illustrator by Spectrum Noir.
Marshall: "Spectrum Noir" like a Noir character.
Stan: I've never tried these markers so I'm
actually excited to test these out compare
them to kopecks.
Marshall: Okay.
Stan: Because I'm working on making a sketch
book.
Selling a Proko branded sketchbook.
Blank pages not like of my artwork and one
of those sketchbooks will be with marker paper
in it so testing that out on my paper.
Marshall: Okay. Alright.
Stan: A pen.
I don't read Japanese.
Marshall: I would love to play with that.
Sure.
Stan: Don't know what that is.
Yeah, you can start playing with these Marshall.
Marshall: Why not?
Stan: This is a Faber Castell Eraser.
Really nice.
A white ink uniball pen.
Marshall: Yeah, I use this.
Stan: You use white uniballs?
Marshall: Yeah.
Stan: On paper right?
Marshall: Well, when I put washes down with
the -
Stan: Oh, you put them on your washes.
Marshall: Yeah.
I put them on after wash dries and then you
can go in and put little highlights on it.
Stan: Interesting.
Marshall: It's nice.
Stan: I use white charcoal.
The General's white charcoal pencil.
Marshall: Yeah, those are convenient.
Stan: Yeah.
I'll try that out.
The thing I was actually most excited about
when I watched his video explaining his box
was this pencil case, because I actually have
never had a pencil case that I've really liked.
But this is the pencil case.
Marshall: It holds something like 12.
Stan: It holds a bunch of pencils.
This looks like a good size.
It will fit into a backpack that's thin.
My pencil case is a box and so it's bulky.
And it is weird to put it into a backpack
with books in it and stuff.
So, I'm actually kind of excited about this
one.
Marshall: Okay.
Stan: Twelve colored pencils.
Marshall: What brand?
Stan: Faber Castell.
I'm sorry, I don't know what this is.
It is a water-based.
Marshall: Oh, I know what those are.
Stan: Oh, what are they?
Marshall: They got a brush on the other side.
Stan: So, is it is just a marker?
Or is it black ink?
Marshall: It is just a marker on the other
side and it is a brush on this side.
Stan: Is it black ink?
Marshall: It looks like this one is black,
yeah.
Stan: Okay.
So, it is more closer to like what Kim Jung
Gi uses where it use India ink?
Marshall: Yeah.
Except that it is not as soft as a real brush,
this is a foam brush.
Stan: Oh, got it.
And a sketchbook.
This looks nice.
Marshall: Let's see if you can do it.
You need a key, you got one right there to
your right.
Watch this guy go.
This guy is an awesome.
Stan: Not succeeding.
Oh, no.
I just ruined the paper.
Marshall: Not a generational thing.
Stan: You are putting too much pressure on
me Marshall.
Yeah, I totally just like ripped through the
paper.
This looks like good paper.
Oh, it smells good.
Anyway, that and then two pencils.
I don't believe there's anything else in here.
Thank you so much Jazza.
I don't think he is selling these anymore,
so I don't know the point of me promoting it.
Marshall: Yeah.
Stan: That's sponsoring.
Anyone who doesn't know you about Jazza yet,
no one.
Marshall: This is an historical box.
Stan: Yeah.
Anyway, go follow Jazza on YouTube, he's fun.
I watch his stuff.
He's one of my rotating YouTubers that I watch.
What's your thing?
Marshall: My thing is this documentary which
may be hard to find, It's Visions of Light.
It is all of the great living cinematographers
of that time got in front of the camera.
All that they could assemble for this.
And they talk about cinematography.
It's 90 minutes.
It's not meant to be instructive but one of
the things that I noticed about it is that
all of these great cinematographers know the
cinematographers of the past.
They know them and they rattle their names
off.
You know, Billy Bitzer did that and that kind
of thing, that was one of the first times
that I saw that people who rise to the top
of their fields are people who know what happened before them.
Stan: But you said that's not always true.
Marshall: It's not always true.
Well, would you say that Justin Bieber is
at the top of his field?
Stan: Yeah, like one of the top-selling musicians
of all time.
Marshall: Okay. Yeah. Okay, then maybe.
[chuckle] Yeah, there's that exception.
Stan: I don't mean.
Marshall: Okay.
But if we're going to challenge the exceptions
this is going to take me as long as it took
you to undo that Jazza box.
Stan: Yeah.
Marshall: Okay.
Stan: And I don't know much about -
Marshall: What's her face?
Stan: Taylor Swift.
I don't know much about Taylor Swift, but
I don't think she knows like a lot about history.
I mean, she was so young when she got famous
it's like -
Marshall: Is she a singer?
Stan: Yeah.
Marshall: Yeah, okay.
Stan: She's also one of the top selling musicians
like of all time.
She's very young.
Marshall: Okay. I'm sorry I didn't know.
I'm very ignorant about current events.
Stan: No.
I don't necessarily like her music but, I'm
just saying.
Marshall: Anyway, back to Visions of Light,
one thing that you'll love about this is that
in that 90 minutes, it is filled with so many
images of cinematography from the early silent
era all the way up to - maybe through the
70s or 80s, so that the variety of imagery
in here is huge.
You have just got color and black and white
and deep space and shallow space and it's
mostly Hollywood but some European.
So, it is just a very inspiring - this is
one of those ones that I have watched over
25 times.
Stan: Jesus Christ!
Marshall, variety.
Marshall: And will continue to.
I will continue to watch it.
It's got so much variety in it that it's worth
watching over and over.
And if you are going to be a storyteller with
pictures, anyone who is making pictures, even
painters would get a lot out of this because
you figure what are cinematographers doing?
They are making images.
They are just using different tools but they
have got the same issues that you're trying
to compose something that is going to evoke
an emotion.
Okay, anyway.
Visions of Light, however you can find it.
Stan: Cool. Alright.
Marshall, how many stars should they leave
on iTunes?
Marshall: Well, you know, five.
Stan: That's a good answer.
The correct answer.
Leave us five stars.
Tell your friends all about us.
Marshall: What should be the YouTube comments?
Charlie: What's an artist in history that
nobody talks about that you enjoy?
Marshall: Oh, yeah.
Stan: There it is.
Marshall: Who are some - who are some hidden
treasures in art history that we should know
about?
And let's make a rule here, it is got to be
previous to say 1940, I think.
Stan: Really?
Marshall: Yeah, yeah.
Because otherwise it's like -
Stan: Like that's the birthday of the artist.
Marshall: No. No. No. I mean, art that was being produced previous to 1940.
Stan: Art produced.
Marshall: Yeah, yeah.
We got to go back to the stuff that is is
genuinely remove from us by a generation or
two generation.
Stan: I don't know, I mean, there's maybe
people producing in 1950s and 60s who we have
no idea about.
Marshall: Go ahead and correct this.
What should the cutoff date be?
Stan: I don't know.
I think anything from 30 years ago and beyond
is - because it doesn't matter when it was made.
It is just a hidden treasure.
The point is no one knows about it.
Who cares when it was made Marshall?
Marshall: The point is, we're trying to dig
into the unknown treasures of history.
Stan: 30 years ago is part of history.
Why are you discriminating against people
who are currently alive?
If they're not known but they are worth knowing,
I want to hear about it.
Marshall: You are trying to press me to make
some outrageous an irresponsible statement
like if it's done by an artist who is still
living it can't be good and I will not say that.
Stan: You are so racist.
Marshall: Whoa!
Stan: This episode should have ended so long
ago.
Marshall: It should have ended half an hour
ago.
Okay.
Yay!
We're done.
Stan: Alright.
Marshall: Everyone can be relieved.
Stan: Bye everybody.
Marshall: Yeah...
