WHY IS ARCHAEOLOGY IMPORTANT IN
THE STUDY OF THE BIBLE? WHY DO
ARCHAEOLOGISTS IN GENERAL SEEM
TO HAVE SUCH A NEGATIVE ATTITUDE
TOWARDS THE BIBLE? AND
WHAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT
ARCHAEOLOGICAL DISCOVERY THAT
RELATES TO THE BIBLICAL WORLD?
STAY TUNED FOR AN INTERVIEW WITH
ONE OF CHRISTENDOM'S BEST KNOWN
TEACHERS OF BIBLICAL
ARCHAEOLOGY.
[MUSIC]
LAMB AND LION MINISTRIES
PRESENTS CHRIST IN PROPHECY, A
PROGRAM THAT FOCUSES ON THE
FUNDAMENTALS OF BIBLE PROPHECY,
SHOWING HOW CURRENT EVENTS IN
THE NEWS RELATE TO BIBLICAL
PREDICTIONS OF END TIME EVENTS
AND THE SOON RETURN OF JESUS.
NOW, HERE'S YOUR HOST, DR. DAVID
REAGAN. GREETINGS IN THE NAME OF
JESUS OUR BLESSED HOPE AND
WELCOME TO CHRIST IN PROPHECY. I
AM DELIGHTED TO TELL YOU THAT
NATHAN JONES, MY COLLEAGUE AND I
HAVE AS OUR VERY SPECIAL GUEST
ONE OF CHRISTENDOM'S BEST KNOWN
TEACHERS OF BIBLICAL
ARCHAEOLOGY. HIS NAME IS DR.
JAMES FLEMING AND HE IS FROM
GEORGIA. JAMES WE ARE JUST
DELIGHTED THAT YOU WOULD COME
AND BE WITH US TODAY. IT IS MY
PRIVILEGE, THANKS. WELL WE WANT
TO START OFF BY JUST FINDING OUT
A LITTLE BIT ABOUT YOU.
WOULD YOU TELL US ABOUT YOUR
BACKGROUND AND ALSO ABOUT YOUR
CREDENTIALS SO THAT OUR VIEWERS
WILL KNOW THAT YOU KNOW WHAT YOU
ARE TALKING ABOUT? WELL I FEEL
A LITTLE BIT SELF-CONSCIOUS, BUT
I GREW UP IN AN AIRLINE FAMILY
AND I COULD FLY FREE. SO THAT
MEANS YOU FLEW AROUND A LOT. SO
AFTER I HAD FINISHED COLLEGE I
THOUGHT YOU KNOW I OUGHT TO USE
THESE FREE FLYING PRIVILEGES TO
STUDY OVERSEAS. AND I WENT AS A
STUDENT TO STUDY IN JERUSALEM.
MY REASON FOR JERUSALEM IS
BECAUSE WHEN I WAS IN COLLEGE I
NOTICED IF YOU WANTED TO KNOW
WHAT THE BIBLE SAID ABOUT
SOMETHING, I WENT TO A CHRISTIAN
COLLEGE, MAKE SURE YOU ONLY READ
ONE COMMENTARY, BECAUSE IF YOU
READ 2 COMMENTARIES THERE'S 3
OPINIONS, RIGHT? AND THEREFORE
IF YOU ARE REALLY GOING TO BE
SERIOUS YOU NEED TO ASK, "WHAT
WOULD THIS HAVE MEANT IN ITS
ORIGINAL TIME AND PLACE?" OKAY.
SO WHY DON'T I USE SOME OF THESE
FREE FLYING PRIVILEGES TO GO TO
ISRAEL FOR MOST OF THE BIBLICAL
STORIES AND STUDY TIME AND
PLACE, SO IT WAS; GEOGRAPHY,
HISTORY, ARCHAEOLOGY. AND I KNEW
THAT I WANTED TO BE A TEACHER
AND I THOUGHT AT LEAST GEOGRAPHY
AND HISTORY I WOULD BE
INTERESTED IN, I WASN'T SO SURE
ON THE ARCHAEOLOGY PART, YOU
KNOW THE THINGS THAT PEOPLE
MADE. BUT I STUDIED WITH
PROFESSORS FROM HEBREW AND TEL
AVIV UNIVERSITY, WHEN IT CAME
TIME FOR A DOCTOR'S DISSERTATION
I CAME BACK TO THE UNITED STATES
THEN. BUT I CHOOSE METHODS OF
TEACHING BIBLICAL, HISTORICAL
GEOGRAPHY, AND ARCHAEOLOGY WITH
AN EDUCATION DOCTORATE. EVEN
THOUGH I ENDED UP WITH MORE
THEOLOGY CLASSES ON THE DOCTORAL
LEVEL WANTING TO WORK AND LIVE
IN THE MIDDLE EAST I THOUGHT IT
WOULD BE WISER TO HAVE A SECULAR
NOMENCLATURE DEGREE RATHER THAN
SOMETHING THAT SOUNDED TOO
RELIGIOUS BECAUSE THERE IS
SUCH SUSPICION THERE, JEWS AND
MUSLIMS. YES, AFRAID YOU ARE
GOING TO BE CONVERTING PEOPLE.
YEAH. WELL NOW YOU LIVED IN
ISRAEL A LONG TIME DIDN'T YOU?
ACTUALLY 37 YEARS. WOW. I WENT
AS A STUDENT IN '69 AND THEN
RETURNED AS A TEACHER IN '73.
WHERE DID YOU TEACH THERE? I
TAUGHT AT WHAT AT THAT TIME WAS
CALLED THE INSTITUTE OF HOLY
LAND STUDIES, NOW IT IS CALLED
JERUSALEM UNIVERSITY COLLEGE.
BUT WITHIN A FEW YEARS I WAS
ASKED TO GIVE CLASSES AT THE
HEBREW UNIVERSITY, THE MAIN
ISRAELI UNIVERSITY IN JERUSALEM.
THEY HAVE AN OVERSEAS CAMPUS,
3,000 INTERNATIONAL STUDENTS. SO
I TAUGHT THERE. AND DURING THAT
37 YEARS, WOULD YOU SAY YOU HAVE
WALKED ABOUT EVERY SQUARE MILE
OF ISRAEL? ACTUALLY MY FIRST 5
YEARS THERE I COULD ONLY AFFORD
A MOTORCYCLE, I DIDN'T HAVE A
CAR. SO A LOT OF IT WAS
MOTORCYCLED. BUT I HAVE A HOBBY
OF MAKING RELIEF MAPS AND MODELS
AND I MADE A VERY INTENTIONAL
GOAL OF EVERY TEXT IN THE BIBLE
WHERE SOMEBODY WALKED FROM PLACE
A TO PLACE B TO TRY TO WALK THAT
IN TERMS OF THE TIMING AND THE
SCENES AND GEOGRAPHY, THINGS
LIKE THAT. SO IT WAS A GREAT WAY
TO LEARN THE LAND. AND I
UNDERSTAND YOU MUST HAVE HAD A
CAMERA WITH YOU MOST OF THE
TIME, BECAUSE YOU TOLD ME BEFORE
THIS PROGRAM STARTED YOU HAVE
OVER 350,000 PHOTOGRAPHS OF
ISRAEL. AND UNFORTUNATELY THEY
WERE SLIDES, YOU KNOW BACK IN
THE OLD DAYS. OH, YEAH. SO NOW
YOU HAVE TO DIGITALIZE THEM? I
HAVE THIS POOR GAL, BLESS HER
HEART, 4 ½ YEARS DIGITALIZING,
SHE IS ONLY HALF WAY THROUGH,
BUT YES. DON'T A LOT OF TOUR
GUIDES OWE THEIR ABILITIES TO
TOUR ISRAEL BECAUSE OF YOU?
WELL, MANY GUIDES OF COURSE
LEARN MANY THINGS ON THEIR OWN.
BUT I WAS GRATEFUL THAT FOR THE
LAST 30 YEARS THE GOVERNMENT OF
ISRAEL, AND I AM HAPPY TO
SAY AND ALSO THE PALESTINIAN
AUTHORITY SAID, "WHY SHOULD JEWS
TELL JEWS WHAT CHRISTIAN PLACES
MEAN TO CHRISTIANS? OR MUSLIMS
TELL MUSLIMS?" THAT'S LOGICAL.
"WHY DON'T WE HAVE A CHRISTIAN
TEACH ABOUT GUIDING CHRISTIANS?"
SO YOU DO THAT FOR THE ISRAELI
TOUR GUIDES? YES, YES. AND WHAT
DO YOU TEACH ABOUT? HOW
CHRISTIANS VIEW SITES? WELL,
THERE ARE GENERAL LECTURES ABOUT
THE LIFE OF JESUS. BUT MOST OF
IT IS TAKING THEM ON FIELD
TRIPS, SO AT THE SITES WHAT IS
IMPORTANT FOR A CHRISTIAN GROUP.
OKAY. YOU HAVE QUIET A FACILITY
I THINK NATHAN WAS GOING TO ASK
YOU ABOUT YOUR FACILITY THERE IN
GEORGIA. YEAH, EXPLORATIONS IN
ANTIQUITY CENTER. I WAS ON THEIR
WEBSITE AND IT IS IN LAGRANGE,
GEORGIA RIGHT? YES. AND YOU
HAVE, IT IS LIKE BEING IN
ISRAEL RIGHT? I MEAN IT LOOKS
FANTASTIC, CAN YOU TELL US A
LITTLE ABOUT IT? AND YOU SAVE
THE FLIGHT. YEAH, YOU JUST HAVE
TO GO TO GEORGIA. NO, NO I WANT
PEOPLE TO GO TO ISRAEL, BUT IF
YOU CAN'T MAKE IT. TELL PEOPLE
ABOUT THE CENTER. FIRST OF ALL
WHERE IS LAGRANGE GEORGIA? OKAY,
IT IS 45 MINUTES SOUTH OF THE
ATLANTA AIRPORT. INTERSTATE 85
WHICH GOES FROM ATLANTA TO
MONTGOMERY, ALABAMA, IT IS JUST
INSIDE THE ALABAMA BORDER.
OKAY. WE CHOOSE THAT BECAUSE THE
FOUNDATION BASED IN LAGRANGE
OFFERED TO GIVE US MATCHING
GRANTS FOR THE MUSEUM, SO IT WAS
AN OFFER WE COULDN'T REFUSE, IF
WE BUILT A MUSEUM IN LAGRANGE.
OKAY, SO WHAT DO YOU HAVE THERE?
SO, THIS IS OUR FOURTH PLACE TO
HAVE A MUSEUM OF DAILY LIFE IN
ANTIQUITY. THREE TIMES WE HAD TO
MOVE IN ISRAEL, IT IS DIFFICULT
FOR CHRISTIANS TO FIND PROPERTY
THAT IS AVAILABLE WHEN YOU ARE
SUCH A MINORITY. AND THEN IT IS
DIFFICULT TO MAINTAIN IT WITH
THE UPS AND DOWNS... YES, IN
TOURISM. YOU KNOW A BOMB GOES
OFF EVERYBODY CANCELS THEIR
TRIP. AND YOU SEE IT WAS A
MUSEUM THAT WAS A PARTICULARLY
FOCUSED ON CHRISTIANS. WE HAD
FREE ENTRANCE FOR JEWS AND
MUSLIMS WANTING LOCALS TO COME,
BUT IT WAS MAINLY FOR CHRISTIAN
PILGRIM GROUPS. BUT LIKE YOU SAY
PERCEIVED DANGER... YOU KNOW THE
FIRST TIME I RAN ACROSS YOU JIM
YOU HAD A CENTER THERE ON I
GUESS IT WAS BETHLEHEM ROAD.
YES. YES. IN JERUSALEM AND YOU
HAD SITES THAT YOU COULD GO TO
WHERE YOU COULD SEE HOW THEY
DEALT WITH OLIVES, AND HOW THEY
DEALT WITH WHEAT, AND HOW THEY
ATE AT A TABLE. YES. AND ALL
THESE VARIES THINGS, IT WAS
WONDERFUL IT WAS LIKE WALKING
THROUGH ANTIQUITY. RIGHT. AND
THEN YOU HAD TO LEAVE THERE AND
GO TO EIN KAREM WHICH IS OUTSIDE
OF JERUSALEM AND THAT IS AND WE
HAVE VISITED THERE BECAUSE YOU
HAD TO LEAVE THAT AND A LADY
NAMED.... SO NOW YOU HAVE TO
COME TO LAGRANGE, GEORGIA. SO
NOW WE HAVE TO COME TO LAGRANGE,
GEORGIA, WE ARE JUST FOLLOWING
YOU AROUND. OKAY, I AM SORRY I
MOVE SO MUCH. A WONDERING JEW
WAS MY FATHER. HOW CAN PEOPLE
FIND OUT ABOUT THEN ABOUT IT,
AND THEN YOU MINISTRY AND THE
CENTER? WELL WE HAVE A WEBSITE
THAT IS EASY TO REMEMBER. JUST
TELL THEM RIGHT IN THAT CAMERA.
SO, DIGGINGFORIT.COM, EITHER
THE NUMBER 4 OR F-O-R AND THAT
LEADS YOU TO.... IS IT
DIGGINGFORIT.NET? AND IT COULD
BE .NET, .COM, .ORG. OKAY.
DIGFORIT.NET THAT IS EASY. AND
THEN THAT LEADS YOU TO THE
MUSEUM OR WE HAVE A BOOKSTORE
TOO, OR THINGS LIKE THAT. OKAY.
AND IT GIVES YOU MAPS AND
DIRECTIONS AND SUCH. ARE YOU
OPEN YEAR ROUND? WE ARE.
ALRIGHT. AND WE ARE CLOSED LIKE
MANY MUSEUMS SUNDAY AND MONDAY
BECAUSE IT IS IMPORTANT TO BE
OPEN FOR SATURDAY FOR MOST
PEOPLE. YES. WE ARE HOPING TO
TAKE A VIDEO CREW THERE AND DO
SOME SHOOTING OF YOU ACTUALLY
TEACHING AT THIS PLACE. WELL YOU
WILL BE GLAD TO KNOW THAT YOU
ARE GOING TO FEEL, "HEY I HAVE
SEEN AN OLIVE PRESS LIKE THIS
SOMEWHERE IN ISRAEL." WE HAVE
THE SAME KIND.... IT WILL BE A
DÉJÀ VU EXPERIENCE. WE HAVE AN
AREA FOR THE LIFE OF THE
SHEPHERD WE ACTUALLY HAVE GOAT
HAIR TENTS FROM THE JORDAN,
IRAQ BORDER. SO THEY ARE ALL
AUTHENTIC THEN? YEAH. WOW. THE
LIFE OF THE FARMER, SO WE WILL
HAVE... WELL I TOOK A GROUP ONE
TIME TO YOUR SITE ON BETHLEHEM
ROAD AND WE HAD A BIBLICAL MEAL.
WE HAVE A WHOLE AREA WHERE YOU
CAN HAVE A BIBLICAL MEAL THERE
ARE A COUPLE OF ROOMS THAT ARE
SET UP FOR THAT. AND IT TALKS
ABOUT MANNERS AND CUSTOMS BUT
MOST IMPORTANT: WHAT WOULD A
PASSOVER MEAL HAVE BEEN LIKE
WHEN THE TEMPLE WAS STANDING.
AND HOW CAN THAT HELP US BETTER
UNDERSTAND THE LAST SUPPER? JIM
I HAVE NOTICED OVER THE YEARS AS
I HAVE READ A LOT IN ARCHAEOLOGY
THAT MOST ARCHAEOLOGIST SEEM TO
HOLD THE BIBLE IN CONTEMPT AS A
RELIABLE, HISTORICAL DOCUMENT.
AND I WOULD LIKE YOU TO COMMENT
ON THAT IN JUST A MOMENT. SURE.
[MUSIC]
WELCOME BACK TO OUR INTERVIEW
OF DR. JAMES FLEMING ONE OF
CHRISTENDOM'S BEST KNOWN
TEACHERS OF BIBLICAL
ARCHAEOLOGY. JIM RIGHT BEFORE
THE BREAK WE WERE TALKING ABOUT
THE WAY IN WHICH ARCHAEOLOGIST
SEEM TO HOLD THE BIBLE IN
CONTEMPT AS A RELIABLE,
HISTORICAL DOCUMENT. AT LEAST
THAT IS THE IMPRESSION THAT
I GET FROM READING A LOT OF
ARCHAEOLOGICAL ARTICLES. HOW
ABOUT IT? THERE WAS A PERIOD IN
THE MID 1900'S WHERE MANY PEOPLE
HAD TO PROVE THE BIBLE CAN BE
PROVED BY ARCHAEOLOGY AND THE
AGENDA TO TRY TO HAVE SOMETHING
SPECIFICALLY APPROVING ABOUT THE
BIBLE. AND REACTS TO THAT, YOUR
TRAINING IS AT A SECULAR
UNIVERSITY; YOU WANT TO CONVINCE
YOUR SCIENTIFIC COLLEAGUES
THAT YOU ARE OBJECTIVE AND NOT
FORCING AN AGENDA. MADE THEM
SWING TO THE OTHER SIDE OF
TRYING TO ALMOST BE AFRAID TO
MAKE A BIBLICAL CONNECTION. BUT
YOU KNOW WHAT GETS ME ABOUT THAT
IS IF AN ARCHAEOLOGIST FINDS A
PIECE OF PAPYRUS IN EGYPT
WITH SOME WRITING ON IT THEY
IMMEDIATELY ASSUME THAT THAT IS
TRUE AND THAT IS AUTHENTIC. AND
YET HERE IS THE BIBLE ONE OF
THE BEST PRESERVED DOCUMENTS OF
ANTIQUITIES. IN FACT THE OTHER
MORNING MY WIFE AND I WERE
HAVING A DEVOTIONAL WE STARTING
READING 1 CHRONICLES, THE FIRST
6 CHAPTERS ARE THE MOST DETAILED
CHRONOLOGIES I HAVE... I MEAN
THIS IS NOT FAIRY TALES THIS IS
DETAILED CHRONOLOGIES. SURE.
WHAT YOU SHOULD SAY IF YOU ARE
TRULY OBJECTIVE IS THAT THE
BIBLE SHOULD AT LEAST BE
CONSIDERED AS AN EQUAL SOURCE
AMONG OTHER ANCIENT SOURCES. NOW
FOR SOMEONE OF FAITH WE WOULD
HAVE SPECIAL TRUST IN ITS
AUTHORITY. BUT ACADEMICALLY IT
SHOULD AT LEAST BE TAKEN AS A
SOURCE LIKE ANY OTHER SOURCE AND
NOT PUNISHED BECAUSE IT WAS
PRESERVED. SEE IF IT WAS LOST
AND THEN FOUND, OKAY THEN IT IS
VALUABLE SOURCE, YOU KNOW. AND
ONE OF THE THINGS AND WE'LL TALK
ABOUT IT LATER THAT THE DEAD SEA
SCROLLS HAVE SHOWED US IS HOW
ACCURATELY ITS MEMORIES HAVE
BEEN PRESERVED OVER THE
CENTURIES AND THEREFORE NOT
DEMEANED IN ANYWAY. YEAH, NATHAN
YOU HAD A QUESTION. YEAH, I WAS
WONDERING HOW DO YOU VIEW THE
HISTORICITY OF THE BIBLE? YEAH,
YOU KNOW SOME PLACES IN THE
BIBLE ARE MEANT TO BE SYMBOLIC
AND THEY YOU KNOW, LET ME TELL
YOU A PARABLE ABOUT A VINEYARD
ON A FERTILE HILL. OR JESUS
SAYING A MAN WENT TO JERUSALEM
TO JERICHO. YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSED
TO SAY, WHAT WAS THE MAN'S NAME,
WHAT TIME OF YEAR DID HE TRAVEL?
BUT HE IS USING A SPECIFIC ROAD
AS AN ILLUSTRATION FOR A
PARABLE. OR ISAIAH 5 THERE WAS A
VINEYARD IN JUDAH WELL HOW ARE
VINES IN JUDAH GROWN? AND EVEN
IF YOU FEEL SOME PORTIONS OF THE
BIBLE MIGHT BE A PARABLE A TRUTH
FOR ALL TIMES AND ALL PLACES, IT
DOESN'T MEAN THE HISTORICAL AND
GEOGRAPHICAL REFERENCES ARE NOT
IMPORTANT. YES, YES. I ONCE HAD
THREE PROFESSORS I WAS ASKED TO
TAKE AROUND BY HEBREW UNIVERSITY
AND SHOWED JERUSALEM BECAUSE
THEY WERE CONSIDERING HAVING,
THEY HAPPEN TO BE FROM GERMANY,
OF HAVING THEIR UNIVERSITY BRING
STUDENTS TO STUDY AT HEBREW
UNIVERSITY. AND THERE WAS SUCH
RESISTANCE TO THINK THAT IT WAS
IMPORTANT TO VISIT ANY PLACE IN
THE BIBLE. BECAUSE IN THEIR MIND
MANY PORTIONS OF THE BIBLE WERE
NOT HISTORICAL. BUT I CONVINCED
THEM THAT IF YOU ARE GONNA TRULY
BE OBJECTIVE YOU HAVE TO AT
LEAST AT PRELIMINARY CONSIDER:
COULD THIS BE AN HISTORICAL
MEMORY? YOUR CONCLUSION AFTER
THAT PRELIMINARY OPEN TO THE
POSSIBILITY MIGHT BE DIFFERENT,
BUT YOU AT LEAST HAVE TO BE OPEN
TO THAT POSSIBILITY. WELL, YES.
AND QUITE FRANKLY I GET AMUSED
AT WHEN I READ THESE SECULAR
ARCHAEOLOGIST BECAUSE IT SEEMS
THAT QUITE OFTEN THEIR PURPOSE
IS TO PROVE THAT THE BIBLE IS
WRONG, AND IT SEEMS EVERY TIME
THEY TURN OVER A SPADE OF
DIRT THEY FIND SOMETHING THAT
JUSTIFIES THE HISTORICITY OF THE
BIBLE. AND THEY ALWAYS TAKE THE
LATE OR THE EARLIER DATES THEN
WHAT ARE TRADITIONALLY HELD, TOO
IT SEEMS. WELL PART OF THAT IS
YOU HAVE TO WRITE A THEORY THAT
NO ONE ELSE HAS WRITTEN. SO THAT
YOUR NAME AND EVERYONE WILL USE
YOUR DATES, YOU KNOW, EGO ENTERS
IN THERE SOME. BUT YOU KNOW IT
IS IMPORTANT TO AT LEAST BE OPEN
TO THE POSSIBILITY THAT THIS
MIGHT BE A VERY ACCURATE
REMEMBRANCE ABOUT THIS TIME AND
PLACE SO LET'S GO AND STUDY THAT
TIME, STUDY THAT PLACE, AND BE
OPEN TO THAT POSSIBILITY. AND
FOR ME, I HAVE COME TO THE
CONCLUSION THAT, THERE FOR
EXAMPLE THERE ARE 27 CITIES
NAMED IN THE GOSPELS. THEY ARE
FULLY NAMED BECAUSE INSIGHT
COMES TO THE STORY IF YOU KNOW
WHERE IT HAPPENED. THERE ARE 353
TOWNS MENTIONED IN THE BIBLE.
ONLY A CRAZY ARCHAEOLOGIST WOULD
COUNT THEM, RIGHT? BUT I HAVE A
HUNCH THAT MEANING COMES IF YOU
KNOW ABOUT THE PLACE. OTHERWISE
THE TEXT WOULD SAY, "THEY WENT
TO ANOTHER TOWN." AND YOU AND I
WERE DISCUSSING SOMETHING ABOUT
THAT THIS MORNING, I THINK
IT IS IMPORTANT. HOW MANY ARE
MENTIONED IN THE OLD TESTAMENT?
DO YOU REMEMBER? 353, YOU FORGOT
ALREADY? WELL I DIDN'T KNOW IF
THAT WAS THE WHOLE BIBLE OR
JUST... IN THE LAND OF ISRAEL.
ALRIGHT. IN THE NEW TESTAMENT?
27 IN THE GOSPELS, AND 83 IN
THE BOOK OF ACTS. HOW MANY ARE
MENTIONED IN JOSEPHUS? NOW, IN
GALILEE JOSEPHUS MENTIONED IN
GALILEE 46 TOWNS BY NAME. OKAY,
THE REASON I AM DOING THIS IS
BECAUSE YOU'VE GOT ALL THESE
LISTS AND NOT ONE SINGLE LIST
MENTIONS NAZARETH. RIGHT. SO
NAZARETH HAD TO BE A LITTLE
PODUNK TOWN. YEAH, AND THAT IS
EXPRESSED WHEN THE EXCAVATION IS
FOUND. NAZARETH WAS 200 TO 300
PEOPLE, UNWALLED. NOW IT SEEMS
LIKE IT IS THE MARRIAGE CAPITAL
OF THE WORLD, EVERY OTHER STORE
IS A BRIDAL SHOP. CANAAN ON
THE OTHER HAND WAS 5,000, SO
SOPHISTICATED CITY SLICKER
NATHANIEL FROM CANAAN. REMEMBER
WHERE IT SAYS, "CAN ANYTHING
GOOD
COME OUT OF NAZARETH?" NAZARETH
IS A YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING
PLACE. AND WHEN PAUL SAYS, PILOT
IS WRITING THAT SIGN, "JESUS OF
NAZARETH, HOW DO YOU SPELL THAT,
N-A-Z...." THE MOST IMPORTANT
THING TO REMEMBER ABOUT NAZARETH
IS THAT NAZARETH WAS NOT
IMPORTANT. AND THEN YOU CAN
UNDERSTAND HOW A MYSTERY OF OUR
FAITH IS THAT A MAN FROM SUCH A
SMALL VILLAGE WITHOUT
SOPHISTICATED THINGS IN THEIR
TOWN, WITHOUT YOU KNOW NO
UNIVERSITY, HAS 3,000 GRADUATE
SCHOOLS AROUND THE WORLD TODAY
STILL DISCUSSING HIS SAYINGS. IT
IS ONE OF THE MYSTERIES OF OUR
FAITH. GOD REJOICES IN THE
LITTLE THINGS RIGHT? ONE OF THE
EVIDENCES TO ME THAT HE MUST
TRULY HAVE BEEN GOD IN THE
FLESH. WELL JIM YOU HAVE DEVOTED
YOUR LIFE NOW TO TEACHING
BIBLICAL ARCHAEOLOGY. WHY ARE
YOU, WHY DO YOU CONSIDER THIS
SO IMPORTANT? WHAT IS THE
IMPORTANCE OF BIBLICAL
ARCHAEOLOGY? IF A CHRISTIAN IS
SERIOUS ABOUT THEIR FAITH, THEY
NEED TO KNOW 2 WORLDS VERY WELL.
THEY NEED TO KNOW THE WORLD OF
THE BIBLE, THEIR FAITH DOCUMENT
SO THAT THEY CAN BETTER
UNDERSTAND WHAT THOSE WORDS
WOULD HAVE MEANT IN THEIR TIME
AND PLACE. AND THEY NEED TO KNOW
THEIR WORLD IN WHICH THEY LIVE
SO WE CAN PROPERLY CORRELATE THE
SIMILAR ISSUE TODAY THAT THAT
ANCIENT TEXT CAN ADDRESS, OR
THEN IN YOUR WORLD THIS ANCIENT
PROPHECY TO UNDERSTAND THE WORLD
TODAY TO MAKE A PROPER
APPLICATION. WELL HOW ABOUT
GIVING US SOME EXAMPLES OF HOW
UNDERSTANDING ARCHAEOLOGY WILL
BETTER HELP YOU UNDERSTAND A
BIBLICAL STORY OR SOMETHING IN
THE BIBLE. WELL OF COURSE EVERY
PAGE HAS THOSE. BUT FOR EXAMPLE
SOMETIMES A WORD CAN BE
TRANSLATED 2 WAYS, AND UNLESS
YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT THE ORIGINAL
TEXT WAS YOU WOULDN'T KNOW. THIS
IS GOING TO BE SURPRISING TO
SOME OF YOUR HEARERS AND VIEWERS
OF THE PROGRAM, BUT THE WORD
UPON AND AGAINST ARE THE SAME IN
GREEK. THE WORD; LIFT UP AND THE
WORD TAKE AWAY ARE THE SAME. NOW
VINES IN THE ANCIENT WORLD DON'T
HAVE WIRE HOLDING UP ALL THE
BRANCHES LIKE MODERN VINEYARDS.
AT THE LAST SUPPER IN JOHN 15
ANY BRANCH THAT BEARS NOT
FRUIT I WILL, NORMALLY IT IS
TRANSLATED TAKE-AWAY, BUT THE
SAME WORD IS NORMALLY TRANSLATED
ACTUALLY 75% OF THE TIME, I WILL
LIFT UP, IT IS THE WORD OF THE
ASCENSION STORY. WELL THE
TRANSLATOR THINKS; PICTURES
MODERN VINES ALREADY LIFTED
UP... YES. SO TRANSLATED IT, I
WILL TAKE AWAY. BUT IT IS A VERY
IMPORTANT DIFFERENCE IN THE
MEANING BETWEEN LIFT UP, AND
TAKE AWAY. DID YOU KNOW THAT IF
A VINE HAS A BRANCH THAT TOUCHES
THE GROUND AND WITHOUT WIRES
HOLDING THEM UP THEY DO, IT WILL
MAKE ITS OWN ROOT. NO I DIDN'T
KNOW THAT. AND NO LONGER TAKE
ITS NOURISHMENT FROM THE DEEPER
MOTHER ROOT OF THE VINE. BUT SO
WHAT THE VINEDRESSER DOES IS
THEY STICK ANOTHER ROCK UNDER
THE VINE, ANOTHER ONE TO LIFT IT
UP. ABIDE IN ME, KEEP YOUR
NOURISHMENT COMING FROM MY
DEEPER ROOT, I WILL LIFT YOU
UP SO YOU WON'T SUPPORT YOUR
SHALLOW OWN ROOT. BUT YOU SEE
THIS IS JUST ONE LITTLE EXAMPLE
BUT YOU HAVE TO ASK, HOW WERE
VINES GROWN AT THE TIME OF
JESUS, TO HELP INTERPRET THE
TEXT. WELL GIVE US ANOTHER
EXAMPLE; YOU MUST BE A WALKING
ENCYCLOPEDIA OF EXAMPLES. OF
TRIVIA. BUT THEY HELP US BETTER
UNDERSTAND. YEAH. WELL GOSH, A
SPECIFIC DISCOVERY FOR EXAMPLE;
GRAVE CUSTOMS YOU NEVER THROW
AWAY OLD CLOTHING YOU USE IT AS
RAGS, AND YOUR TEAR THEM UP INTO
STRIPS. AND YOU SWADDLE INFANTS,
YOU WRAP INFANTS, AND YOU
SWADDLE THE DEAD. THE WORD
SHOULD BE GRAVE CLOTHS, NOT
GRAVES CLOTHES BECAUSE YOU WOULD
WRAP A BODY WITH TORN UP STRIPS
OF CLOTH. SO ARE YOU SAYING THE
SHROUD OF TURIN IS NOT... AS AN
EXAMPLE YOU GOT RIGHT TO IT. IN
LATER PERIODS YOU WILL HAVE A
BURIAL SHROUD, BUT IN BIBLICAL
TIMES YOU WOULD WRAP A BODY. NOW
WHEN YOU WRAP A BODY IT IS FINE
GOING UP TO THE SHOULDERS BUT
THEN YOU HAVE TO COME INTO THE
NECK. SO THE HEAD WRAPPING ARE
ALWAYS A LITTLE BIT SEPARATE
FROM THE BODY WRAPPINGS. THAT
WOULD EXPLAIN THEN WHY LAZARUS
HAD TO BE UNTIED, HE DIDN'T PULL
OFF A SHROUD HE HAD TO BE
UNTIED. OR WHY THERE WAS A
SEPARATE HEAD WRAPPING FOR
JESUS. SO DON'T THINK OF, IF
SOMEONE HAD STOLEN THE BODY AND
LEFT THE GRAVE WRAPPINGS THERE
WOULD BE ONE PILE OF GRAVE
CLOTHS. BUT IF THE BODY
WRAPPINGS WERE ONE PLACE AND
THERE WAS THE HEAD WRAPPINGS
SEPARATE FROM THEM, THIS IS WHAT
MADE PETER BELIEVE, RIGHT? THAT
THE BODY WAS GONE BUT THE
WRAPPINGS WERE UNDISTURBED. NOW
I DON'T WANT TO MAKE IT A TOO
LITERAL THING BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY
THE MYSTERY OF THE RESURRECTION
PRESENCE OF CHRIST IS THE
REALITY MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THEN
JUST LOOKING AT GRAVE CLOTHS,
BUT AHA, THAT IS WHAT IT WOULD
HAVE MEANT IF YOU STOPPED TO ASK
WHAT WERE BURIAL CUSTOMS IN THE
TIME OF JESUS. WE WERE TALKING
YESTERDAY WHEN I PICKED YOU UP
AT THE AIRPORT. WE WERE TALKING
ABOUT HOW ART SOMETIMES HAS AN
IMPACT UPON OUR BIBLICAL IMAGES,
AND IT IS AN INCORRECT IMPACT.
LIKE THE SONG, "ON A HILL FAR
AWAY STOOD AN OLD RUGGED
CROSS," A BEAUTIFUL SONG IT HAS
TREMENDOUS, IT'S AN ARTISTIC
INTERPRETATION. BUT IT JUST
DOESN'T COINCIDE WITH REALITY
BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T CRUCIFY
PEOPLE ON HILLS FAR AWAY. AND,
"UP CALVARY'S MOUNTAIN," THINGS
LIKE THAT, THE HYMNS. I MEAN
THEY PUT THEM ON THE ROAD TO GET
AN IMPACT, DIDN'T THEY? OR RIGHT
OUTSIDE THE GATE. THE WORD HILL
IS NOT MENTIONED IN THE TEXT,
RIGHT? BUT OUR HYMNS ARE. NOW
PART OF THIS IS TO ELEVATE THE
MEANING OF THE CROSS... RIGHT.
THAT'S WHY OFTEN THE MIDDLE
CROSS IS NORMALLY TALLER THAN ON
EITHER SIDE FOR THE THEOLOGICAL
IMPORTANCE. YES. BUT, NORMALLY
IT IS ALONG THE SIDES OF ROADS.
AND USUALLY IT IS ROOTED TREES.
YES. AND THAT'S WHY HALF THE
TEXT WILL SAY, "CRUCIFIED ON A
TREE." IT IS NOT JUST MEANING
WOOD, BUT MOST CROSSES, WHERE
THE CRIMINAL CARRIED THE
CROSSBAR THAT IS THE WORD CROSS.
YES, THE CROSSBAR. AND IT IS
FASTENED TO A TREE ON THE SIDE
OF THE ROAD. DID YOU KNOW THAT
IN 6 AD JOSEPHUS TELLS US, HE IS
A CONTEMPORARY OF THE TIME OF
JESUS, THAT THERE WERE 2,000
CRUCIFIXIONS IN 1 DAY IN
JERUSALEM? IT WAS, AND ALL THE
TREES LINING THE ROADS TO
AND FROM JERUSALEM BECAME
CRUCIFIXION PLACES. SO THE CROSS
LOOKED MUCH MORE LIKE A TREE
THEN WE WOULD PICTURE, YOU KNOW.
WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE? WHY SO
MANY CRUCIFIXIONS ALONG THE
ROADS? THERE WAS AN ATTEMPT TO
REVOLT AGAINST ROME. YOU PUT
THEM UP CLOSE SO PEOPLE CAN SEE
THE SUFFERING AND REALIZE...
THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS TO ANYONE
WHO TRIES TO GET OUT FROM
UNDER ROMAN BONDAGE. THE MOST
REALISTIC DEPICTION THAT I HAVE
EVER SEEN OF THAT WAS IN THE
MOVIE "SPARTACUS," WHERE THEY
HAD AS FAR AS YOU COULD SEE
ALONG THE ROAD THE REBELS ON
CROSSES. AND THAT'S TO OF COURSE
INTIMIDATE THE PEOPLE AS THEY
COME TO THE TOWN. YES. SO THEY
WERE ALONG ROADS. NOW A ROAD
COULD BE IN A VALLEY IT CAN GO
UP A SLOPE. MANY COULD SEE FROM
AFAR DISTANCE BUT IT DOESN'T
HAVE TO BE A HILL, THERE IS ALSO
A LOWER VALLEY YOU COULD SEE.
ANOTHER EXAMPLE IS LEONARDO
DA VINCI PAINTING OF THE LAST
SUPPER THAT HAS BEEN ETCHED IN
ALL OF OUR MINDS AND JUST ABOUT
EVERYTHING IN THAT PICTURE
IS WRONG. CHURCH ART IS THE
CULTURE OF THE ARTIST. YES. NOT
THE CULTURE OF THE BIBLE. AND
PEOPLE EAT AT TABLE AND CHAIRS
IN THE TIME OF LEONARDO SO TABLE
AND CHAIRS. BUT THEY DIDN'T AT
THE TIME OF JESUS. IN FACT THE
TEXT ACTUALLY SAID THEY RECLINED
AT THE TABLE. REMEMBER HOW MUCH
TROUBLE ARTIST HAD FOR THE
BELOVED DISCIPLE LEANING ON
JESUS' CHEST, AT TABLE AND
CHAIRS. YES. RIGHT, THEY
RECLINED AT THE TABLE. AND SO
ONE OF THE THINGS AT OUR MUSEUM
IS TO HAVE REPLICAS, AND OVER
1,000 FIRST CENTURY RECLINING
TABLES HAVE BEEN FOUND IN THE
MEDITERRANEAN WORLD. YES. BUT
WE HAVE REPLICAS FOR PEOPLE TO
TAKE PICTURES OF THEM. AND THEY
ARE NOT STRAIGHT TABLES EITHER.
NO. THEY ARE U SHAPED. YES. CAN
PEOPLE EAT AT THOSE TABLES AT
YOUR MUSEUM? YES, WE FIRST OF
ALL TRIED MAKING IT WITH
MATTRESSES LIKE IT SHOULD BE ON
THE FLOOR, BUT WE FOUND VERY FEW
AMERICANS CAN LIE DOWN FOR AN
HOUR AND STILL GET UP. SO WE
MADE AN AUTHENTIC ONE FOR
PICTURES BUT WE HAVE IT LIKE A
COFFEE TABLE IN A VAN SO THEY
CAN SUPPORT THEIR BACKS, YOU
KNOW. BUT WE HAVE A U SHAPED
TABLE. IT WOULD BE HARD ON THE
ARM, YEAH. WELL I JUST KNOW
THAT FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE
THAT WHEN YOU GO TO ISRAEL AND
YOU ACTUALLY SEE THESE THINGS IT
BRINGS THE BIBLE ALIVE IN A WAY.
I REMEMBER ONE TIME WHEN I WAS
IN CAESAREA PHILIPPI AND I READ
THE STORY TO THE PEOPLE OF PETER
MAKING HIS CONFESSION OF JESUS
THERE AND THEN JESUS SAYING TO
HIM, "ON THIS ROCK I WILL BUILD
MY CHURCH, AND THE GATES OF
HADES WILL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST
IT." AND I WAS TOLD THAT THIS
HUGE CAVERN THERE WAS CONSIDERED
BY SOME TO BE THE GATE TO HADES.
AND I COULD JUST SEE HIM,
GESTURING THERE. ANY ENTRANCES
TO THE UNDERGROUND WERE CALLED
THE GATES OF HADES. YES. AND
THAT IS A GROTTO, AND IT WAS A
PAGAN PLACE OF WORSHIP. BUT
MANY TIMES THE NEW TESTAMENT IS
PHRASED IN A WAY SO YOU CAN
PICTURE, BECAUSE YOU KNOW AT
CAESAREA PHILIPPI IT IS FAMOUS
FOR ITS GROTTO ENTERING THE
UNDERWORLD. AND ALSO IT IS THE
BOTTOM OF A 9,000 FOOT HIGH
MOUNTAIN, ON THIS ROCK I WILL
BUILD MY CHURCH. JESUS PROBABLY
AS A GOOD TEACHER IS USING
WHAT'S AROUND HIM. DID YOU KNOW
FROM THE MOUNT OF OLIVES YOU CAN
SEE A MOUNTAIN THAT WAS MOVED,
AND ON THE MOUNTAIN OF OLIVES
JESUS IS SPEAKING TO HIS
DISCIPLES ABOUT FAITH CAN MOVE
MOUNTAINS. YOU CAN SEE IN THE
DISTANCE FROM THE MOUNT OF
OLIVES A MOUNTAIN THAT HEROD CUT
OFF THE TOP OF ONE AND PUT IT
ON ANOTHER. TRIED TO MOVE THE
WHOLE THING. HERODIAN. IN ALL
MODESTY AND NAMED IT AFTER
HIMSELF, HERODIAN, RIGHT? BUT
MAYBE JESUS HINTED JUST AS THE
EMPIRE HAS SLAVES TO MOVE
MOUNTAINS, FAITH CAN MOVE
MOUNTAINS. FOR THE RABBIS OF
JESUS DAY, A MOUNTAIN STOOD FOR
SOMETHING IMPOSSIBLE. FAITH
CAN ACCOMPLISH THE IMPOSSIBLE.
[MUSIC]
MY COLLEAGUE NATHAN JONES
AND I ARE IN THE PROCESS OF
INTERVIEWING DR. JAMES FLEMING
CONCERNING THE IMPORTANCE OF
BIBLICAL ARCHAEOLOGY. ON THE
WALL BEHIND ME HERE YOU SEE A
PHOTOGRAPH OF A PLACE CALLED
QUMRAN IT IS LOCATED ON THE
SHORE OF THE DEAD SEA, AND AT
THE VERY TOP OF THIS BARREN HILL
YOU CAN SEE SOME CAVES. IT WAS
IN THESE CAVES THAT THE DEAD SEA
SCROLLS WERE DISCOVERED IN
1947. DR. FLEMING, MANY PEOPLE
CONSIDER THE DEAD SEA
SCROLLS THE MOST IMPORTANT
ARCHAEOLOGICAL DISCOVERY OF THE
20TH CENTURY. WOULD YOU AGREE
WITH THEM? I DO BECAUSE IT
PRE-DATES EXISTING MANUSCRIPTS
BY ALMOST A 1,000 YEARS. WOW!
MAYBE WE CAN TALK ABOUT MORE
ABOUT THAT NEXT WEEK? OKAY.
SOUNDS GREAT. OUR TIME IS UP SO
LET ME INVITE YOU TO BE BACK
WITH US AGAIN NEXT WEEK WHEN WE
WILL INTERVIEW DR. FLEMING IN
DETAIL ABOUT THE SIGNIFICANCE OF
THE DEAD SEA SCROLLS, AND
OTHER BIBLICAL ARCHAEOLOGICAL
DISCOVERIES, LIKE THE CITY OF
DAVID. UNTIL THEN THIS IS DAVE
REAGAN SPEAKING FOR LAMB AND
LION MINISTRIES, SAYING, "LOOK
UP, BE WATCHFUL, FOR OUR
REDEMPTION IS DRAWING NEAR."
WHAT WILL HAPPEN WHEN YOU DIE?
THIS MONUMENTAL QUESTION IS
ANSWERED BY DR. DAVID REAGAN'S
BOOK TITLED, "ETERNITY: HEAVEN
OR HELL." MANY OTHER QUESTIONS
CONCERNING THE AFTERLIFE ARE
ANSWERED IN THIS EASY TO
UNDERSTAND BOOK, BASED UPON THE
CLEAR TEACHINGS OF THE BIBLE.
CAN YOU BE CERTAIN OF LIFE AFTER
DEATH? WILL YOU FACE A JUDGMENT
BEFORE GOD? CAN SALVATION BE
LOST? ORDER THE BOOK,
"ETERNITY," FOR A GIFT OF $15 OR
MORE, PLUS SHIPPING. JUST CALL
THE NUMBER YOU SEE ON THE SCREEN
AND ASK FOR THE "ETERNITY" BOOK.
CALL MONDAY THRU FRIDAY, 8 TO 5
CENTRAL TIME, OR ORDER
ON-LINE AT LAMBLION.COM.
[MUSIC]
THANK YOU FOR JOINING US ON
TODAY'S CHRIST IN PROPHECY, A
PRESENTATION OF LAMB AND LION
MINISTRIES, A NON-DENOMINATIONAL
MINISTRY DEDICATED TO TEACHING
THE FUNDAMENTALS OF BIBLICAL
