DAVE: Today's cool fact of the day is if you
purposely post more status updates on social
media, you'll reduce your feelings of loneliness
even if you don't get any responses from your
friends.
Your feeling of loneliness is more strongly
related to how many times you post rather
than how much of a response you get.
I guess that's a replacement for the bartender
from years ago.
Hey it's Dave Asprey with Bulletproof Radio
and I'm excited to introduce you today to
Andrea Kuszewski.
Andrea is a writer for Scientific American,
Discover Magazine, Qualcomm Spark, Wired UK,
and she writes a blog called The Rogue Neuron.
She recently wrote a piece, a couple years
ago, about how to increase your intelligence
that is driving major amounts of traffic to
I think it's Scientific American, Andrea?
ANDREA: ĘYes.
DAVE: ĘAwesome.
By the way, welcome to the show.
I'm kind of getting ahead of myself.
ANDREA: ĘThank you.
Good to be here.
DAVE: ĘYou write about so many cool things
that I don't even know where to start interviewing
you today, but one of the things that stood
out was obviously increasing intelligence.
How could we not talk about that?
But you write about heroism and extreme altruism
and morality and a bunch of other things that
maybe don't line up necessarily with increased
intelligence.
So I want to talk about those things for sure.
ANDREA: ĘOkay.
DAVE: ĘFirst though, let's just talk, why
do you study intelligence?
Why did you write about this?
What's the deal on increasing intelligence?
ANDREA: ĘWell, it's always been kind of a
goal of mine to push myself to my highest
potential.
You know, to achieve as much as I can.
I've always been one of those universal self
starters, self learners, I taught myself to
read at age 3, not because I wanted to, it
just happened to work out that way, so I was
reading at a very young age, and I was always
taking in lots of information.
So learning became a way of life for me.
So as I got older and I started working as
a therapist with kids on the autism spectrum,
so kids with Aspergers were kind of my specialty
and these were kids that had a lot of potential,
but there were a couple of things going on
where they were kind of impeding their progress
in certain areas.
So my goal was to take these kids that have
all this raw potential, and how can I get
them to surpass all of these limits that are
standing in the way of progress and getting
them to push themselves beyond what anyone
thought they could achieve?
And so that's where I kind of started my whole
career and that's kind of the main theme throughout
all the work I do is trying to find a way
to help people reach their highest potential
in every way.
Intelligence, creativity, you know, fewer
sociopaths, more heroes.
We need that.
We need more of that heroic courage in the
world.
So really, that does tie in with reaching
your highest potential.
And when you think about humanity in general,
where do we want to see humanity, what do
we want it to look like in 100 years and how
do we get there?
It doesn't have to be fancy with new technology,
it can be as simple as being conscious of
how you live your life and choosing a path
that is going to get you to the place where
you want to be and doing it deliberately.
DAVE: ĘThat's some pretty big words.
So we need a sociopath reduction strategy?
ANDREA: ĘYes.
Yes.
DAVE: ĘAlright, I fully concur with that.
I've never heard it put that way and it's
a part of why I write the Bulletproof Executive
too.
I believe that when people's brains are turned
on all the way, they do less mean stuff and
the world's a nicer place.
Do you have anything more specific about making
less sociopaths?
ANDREA: ĘWell, it's a complicated subject
and it's one that I'm currently working on
right now that's my main area of research.
So, looking at sociopaths right now, we look
at what were they like as children and can
we identify people that are going to be future
sociopaths?
What are the traits that they have?
What are the deficits?
Why do they go down this path of destruction
of the entire world at their own benefit?
DAVE: ĘOh you mean like propensity study
of political science or something like that?
ANDREA: ĘWell you say that, but I do have
a theory about presidents, but in any case.
Yeah, so when you look at one of the traits
that they have and people seem to think that
sociopaths, they have some kind of a mutation.
There's something wrong with them.
That something happened that made them evil.
And really it's more of an adaptation.
So they have the traits that they have, and
they have the inability to handle the world
around them with what they're given.
So they have poor emotion regulation.
They have very low exhibited empathy.
It's not that they have an inability to empathize
with people, they can, it's just that it's
so intense for them, they don't know how to
handle that appropriately so what they end
up doing is just like shoving all that off
to the side.
So I mean, everyone experiences this to some
degree, so it's kind of like a spectrum of
sociopathic traits you know?
So if you go through a bad breakup and you're
really depressed and you're like screw relationships,
this is horrible.
What you tend to do is you isolate yourself
emotionally from things.
You shove those emotions aside and you disconnect
from people and you get that cold callous
demeanor for a short time as you're getting
over this breakup, but as you're healing,
you reconnect with your emotions and everything
works out normally.
But with sociopaths, imagine doing that at
a very young age, maybe go through some kind
of trauma where it's so debilitating that
they have to completely disconnect from those
emotions because their ego is so fragile,
they can't handle connecting to them and still
surviving.
So really it's a survival mechanism.
DAVE: ĘDo you believe that there's any relationship
between the sociopath side of things and Aspergers
or ADD?
Are they related in any way?
ANDREA: ĘWell, they're related in the fact
that there are some concurrent traits.
So when people are often like "Oh!
Cold callous behavior!
Not showing empathy so, therefore, you know,
people with Aspergers are sociopaths.Ó That's
not true.
So there's like a necessary sufficient group
of traits that must be present in order to
qualify as a sociopath.
So not showing empathy is only one of them.
Another one of those is having a very low
emotion regulation which you know often, Aspergers,
they have the same thing.
But another feature is a sociopath is always
up for the preservation of themselves.
They put everything in the world through a
filter of Ňhow am I gonna benefit.Ó When
they do things that seem to be charity driven
or they're doing something that appears to
benefit someone else, you know that in some
way they are benefiting more either through
social capital orÉ
DAVE: ĘSo if you let someone with Aspergers
when they're a kid read Ayn Rand, does that
make them a sociopath?
ANDREA: ĘIt could steer them in that direction,
yes!
And I'm not saying that no people with Aspergers
are sociopaths, I'm sure they overlap as most
things do.
DAVE: ĘSo you probably don't know this, but
I had all the symptoms of Aspergers although
I was never diagnosed until my mid 20s and
I was diagnosed formally with ADD based on
spec scans and behavioral studies and things
like that.
ANDREA: ĘRight.
DAVE: ĘSo I'm sort of asking these things
and for anyone listening who doesn't know
that, I know a little about emotional regulation
and hacking the brain to make the brain turn
fully on because you actually can handle all
of those inputs including emotional and environmental
sounds all of those things after you've basically
upgraded your performance on many different
levels.
So I'm not making fun of or saying that people
on the spectrum have anything negative or
sociopathic about them, but it's very interesting
to hear how you explain the overlap there
because it's true.
If you can't regulate your emotions or you
don't know how to do it or you don't have
the energy in your cells to do it and you
also have just a hard time dealing with all
of that, all of a sudden then if you get that
push in the direction of do everything for
yourself, you may not understand that you're
impacting others in a harmful way.
ANDREA: ĘRight.
DAVE: Very well said.
Thank you for walking through that.
I know that's a little controversial territory
and turning that stuff off's important.
ANDREA: ĘEx-altruism, you know extreme altruism,
what I'm looking at is the relationship between
that and sociopathy.
And they are actually very similar if you
look at the exhibited traits.
When you're looking at the whistleblower type
of personality.
Edward Snowden.
Classic example.
Some people look at him and say he's a traitor
sociopath look what he's doing, releasing
government secrets, but if you look at what's
the motivation behind his behavior, what's
driving him to do that?
It's his inability to see injustice and not
be able to do anything about it.
He's willing to sacrifice possibly his own
life, his own well being, he scrapped his
career, he's in hiding.
Why?
Because it's for the greater good and that's
the difference.
They exhibit a lot of the same behaviors,
but the drives are different.
External preservation versus internal for
the sociopath.
DAVE: When will I be able to read some of
your work on this?
When will our listeners be able to because
this is going to be fascinating and very topical.
ANDREA: ĘWell I have written an introduction
to this topic for Scientific American, it's
on their guest blog from last year so you
can find that by looking it up.
You can just Google it, it's Walking the Line
Between Good and Evil, but that is actually
a book that I'm planning right now and IŐm
laying out the framework for that, so that
is going to be for the next year of my life,
that's going to be my major topic that I'm
highly interested in talking about.
So you will be hearing much more of that in
the future.
DAVE: Well when your book is ready to come
out, I'd love to have you back on the show
to talk more specifically about that stuff.
But on this show, let's switch gears and talk
about some more things about intelligence
and mental performance because I know you've
got a lot to offer there and all the Bulletproof
listeners are super super into that.
Alright, first thing.
In 2009 the study suggested that after short
interactions with women, men have lower mental
performance.
Any thoughts on that?
Because I'm feeling kind of dumb right now.
ANDREA: You know it's not surprising because
mental performance, partially, it's about
attention allocation.
Concentration.
Motivation.
So when you have things that are competing
for not only attention but competing for your
motivation, yeah you're not gonna be performing
as well.
Another factor is any kind of emotional stimulation
is going to interfere with your cognitive
pathway.
So when you have an influx of and it can be
induced in many different ways so extreme
physical exercise to the point where you can't
even think straight anymore, you know.
Running a marathon or I'm not just talking
about a slow jog.
I'm talking about hitting that point where
you're hitting acute exerciseÉ
DAVE: Like crossfit maybe?
ANDREA: Yeah!
DAVE: Okay.
ANDREA: And actually that brings up another
topic about training.
How do you train for that?
How do you train to endure these kinds of
things that would normally impede learning
and then surpass that and still learn in spite
of?
And if you're able to do that, that's only
gonna bring you to a higher ability.
So if you think about emotional trauma, you
know, you have a fight with your spouse and
then you have to sit down and take a physics
exam.
How well are you gonna do on that?
Probably not as good as you would have otherwise
because what happens is that emotional stimulation,
it literally blocks off the cognitive pathway
and you aren't able to use your prefrontal
cortex like you would normally.
So when you think about males in front of
females, what's happening?
Oh, emotional reaction.
And that's going to diminish that capacity
somewhat.
DAVE: So I use heart rate variability training
with my executive performance coaching clients
and just with myself in order to sort of teach
myself to turn off the fight or flight response.
ANDREA: Yeah.
DAVE: Now the response though that guys get
around women, well sometimes it's fight or
flight, I suppose you're not used to dating.
But lets assume that you're comfortable around
women and you still experience that.
Is that sort of different than an emotional
fight or flight?
Or is this like I'm happy to be around people
or are we primarily dealing with the sympathetic
nervous system here?
ANDREA: ĘI don't think that would be the
fight or flight then.
That's more of attention allocation.
You just can't stop yourself from focusing
so much on that.
DAVE: You have to stop looking at those.
It is too much work.
ANDREA: ĘYeah.
Multitasking.
So if you're trying to multitask, you're not
going to be performing as well.
So while doing research, I try to eliminate
as many external stimuli as I can.
You know, visual.
I try to be somewhere by myself.
Auditory, block off as manyÉ I try to reduce
everything down to the lowest common denominator.
I don't have as many things competing for
my attention.
DAVE: ĘI love that you're talking about the
tricks that you use.
What are the other things you do to hack your
own brain to increase your own intelligence?
ANDREA: ĘWell, there's five things.
The article that I wrote was basically the
five principles of increasing intelligence
and they're just things like eat better food
and get more sleep, these are actually ways
that I approach life.
And I actually do practice what I preach.
And so all of these five things are things
that I do on a regular basis and I've been
doing them for a very long time, and when
I would teach my clients with Aspergers how
to improve their performance, I use the same
principles for them, so it really is a way
of looking at life.
So the first one is seeking novelty which
is you know, I'm in the field of psychology
generally cognitive neuroscience but I'm constantly
reading about philosophy and physics and many
many other fields both in how they relate
to mine and how they don't relate to mine.
You know.
Because there's expanding your horizons and
looking at fields that are very different
from your own, it helps with just in general
increasing the number of synapses in your
brain.
Think about that.
And the more connections you have, the more
they build on each other and you're just going
to increase your performance generally.
So seeking novelty is a big one.
And incidentally of the big five personality
traits, that is one of the only areas that
actually correlates with intelligence is you
know, that novelty seeking, that openness
to experience is one of the only traits that
actually does correlate with higher intelligence,
for a good reason!
Okay soÉand the second one is challenging
myself.
So, once I learn how to do something, once
I master a skill, once I get to the point
where I'm fluent at it, I will immediately
move on to the next challenging activity.
So when people do theseÉIŐm pretty tough
on brain training games, you know, I'm pretty
hard on them.
DAVE: ĘYou should be.
ANDREA: ĘI pretty much say the only thing
brain training games will make you better
atÉ is brain training games.
If you do the same one over and over because
once you know how to do somethingÉ it's no
longer challenging.
Our brains are not built for being smarter.
They're built for efficiency and survival.
DAVE: ĘAnd for avoiding pain, right?
ANDREA: ĘYeah.
So how do you do that?
Your brain has learned to adapt to the environment
so that it wants to survive.
It's not gonna be expending energy if it doesn't
have to.
So it gets like, lazy.
And it looks for ways to be efficient.
And it finds efficiency very quickly and so
once you're aware of this, it's kind of like
you're hacking your own efficiency in a way
that you want to prevent that efficiency from
happening.
As soon as you get to the point where you
notice you're getting fluent, you need to
bump it right back up again and start challenging
yourself again.
DAVE: ĘOkay, so this is gonna sound masochistic
but it's not.
It's a legitimate scientific question.
Should I wire my brain training game up to
an electric shocking dog collar so that instead
of being "oh look i got a higher score" that
I'm actually avoiding pain because the brain's
wiring to avoid pain is larger than the little
dopamine spike you get from that extra star
on the brain training game?
ANDREA: ĘWell then you're kind of messing
around with classical conditioning on a step
too.
We don't wanna start associating learning
with discomfort and pain.
DAVE: ĘIt's a fair point.
ANDREA: ĘYeah.
But as far as the discomfort, you bring up
a good point though, is that learning is not
easy.
It shouldn't be easy.
DAVE: ĘYeah.
ANDREA: ĘIt can be fun and it should be rewarding,
but it should not be easy.
It's really difficult.
So these are people that are like give me
the couple things I need to do!
Wouldn't it be easier to take nootropics rather
than actually reading books and learning things?
And I'm like, well it would probably be easier
but I don't think you're actually gonna get
smarter just by doing that.
DAVE: ĘIt's an either or though.
ANDREA: ĘNo and I'm not knocking nootropics
but there's a way that they can be used to
enhance and but popping a pill is not gonna
make you suddenly know physics if you've never
studied it.
It doesn't work that way.
DAVE: ĘProvigil followed by the view probably
isn't going to change your life in a major
way.
ANDREA: ĘExactly.
DAVE: ĘVery fair point.
ANDREA: ĘYeah.
DAVE: ĘOkay, so do you take any smart drugs
or cognitive enhancers?
ANDREA: ĘTo be totally honest and I've actually
come up with this before, so it's not a big
huge deal, but I do have ADD, and I do take
adderall for that, but I have not taken any
of the other nootropics but for me, people
are like "Oh you're taking smart drugs, that's
why you're so smart" it's like "Well no, it's
actually more about managing dopamine and
things like that."
DAVE: ĘOh yeah.
ANDREA: ĘAnd it's a specific neurochemistry.
I try to explain ADD to people, now I'm not
hyperactive, so for me it's just attention
allocation.
So I'm living on a hallway with 100 doors
and at any given point in time in a normal
person, there's 35 doors that are opening
and closing and you're having to navigate
your attention between all this information,
and for me it's like having 85 doors open
all the time so there's stuff coming in from
every direction and I'm having to fight between
do I choose this or this or this because there's
such a flood of information.
And so when I think about hacking my own mental
health, I understand that this is what's going
on.
My goal is not to reduce the number of doors
that are open, my goal is to be able to effectively
manage all of that information.
So by managing my dopamine levels and norepinephrine
and things like that, I'm actually able to
benefit from having ADD because the information's
there, I just need to find a way to organize
it make it work for me.
So one of the things when I talk about hacking
your own mental health, when I see clients
with Aspergers or with ADHD or any kind of
what we would call a disability, like a mental
disability, the goal should not be making
them more normal, it should not be toning
down their traits.
The goal should be managing the higher traits
that they have, to the point where it's effective.
Now obviously you might have to dial it down
a little bit, but the goal should be keeping
the traits as saturated and as high as possible
while still being able to control it.
So really the control is the big factor.
Not dialing it down to more subdued.
DAVE: ĘIt's interesting you say that.
In my work with performance coaching, one
of the areas of concern I have is around neurofeedback
and I've done a ton of neurofeedback and I
think it's one of the things that gave me
the ability to maintain my own ADD skills
and not have to deal with all of the things
I used to deal with on a regular basis cognitively.
The ability to focus my attention as much
or as little as I want but still be able to
absorb way more information than the average
person.
I've been concerned that neurofeedback has
the potential to take A students and make
them into C students.
It also makes F students and makes them into
C students.
It also creates an average brain if you do
it the wrong way.
If you train your brain to look like an average
of 1000 brains, it may not be the direction
we want to go.
Do you have any thoughts on the risks or rewards
of that sort of brain training?
ANDREA: ĘI'm not as familiar with probably
the kind that you're talking about, but I
do believe that the way our education system
is set up is so that they do want everyone
to train into that middle category.
You know, the outliers are not really encouraged
or nurtured.
They're kind of put into "here's the bell
curve and here's the center and this is where
most people tend to thrive and so since we
areÉwe need our school system to be efficient,
we need standardized tests.
In order to standardize things you have to
be able to throw a lot of information out
there and be able to score quickly and get
in norms and all this other stuff, so what
ends up happening isÉ the people that are
in the tails of the distribution kind of get
left out of that.
They try to squeeze everyone into that middle
and the really exceptional people are not
getting the kind of environment that they
should.
So that sort of relates to what you're saying.
DAVE: ĘOkay.
So what other technologies do you use then?
You're not using neurofeedback, you take Adderall,
I'm surprised that you haven't tried Provigil
because it has a dopamine effect.
Adderall made me tweak by the way.
ANDREA: ĘI've never heard that.
DAVE: ĘAdderall I was like, "don't touch
my skin!"
So that didn't make me so happy, but yeah,
it might beÉ
ANDREA: ĘThat's the thing with Adderall,
everyone thinks that if you take it you're
gonna be smarter, but it doesn't work that
way for everybody.
If you have any kind of anxiety disorder or
any kind of sensitivity to stimulants, it's
really not gonna work for you.
You're gonna get paranoid and anxious and
it's not gonna have the effect that you want.
For me, it's like I've never gotten the jitters
from caffeine ever, no matter how much I drink,
no matter how much coffee I ever had, I don't
get that buzz from coffee like some people
do.
I feel more alert, definitely, but that's
just my neurochemistry.
So Adderall works for me.
It doesn't give me that central nervous system
problems like some people get.
DAVE: ĘNow you take it with Bulletproof Coffee,
right?
ANDREA: ĘI have taken Bulletproof Coffee.
Yes.
DAVE: ĘAnd Adderall at the same time and
you're still good to go with that.
ANDREA: ĘYeah.
DAVE: ĘWow, you're hardcore.
ANDREA: ĘYeah.
And I'm generally, you know what?
People, they characterize me as intense, but
I'm very mellow as far as my temperament.
I'm not one of those hyper bouncing off the
walls kinds of people so yeah.
It doesn't make me get that high feeling like
maybe other people would with sensitivities
to that.
DAVE: ĘCool.
Yeah you don't come across, and watching on
video people can see this on YouTube but most
people listen to this when they're driving,
right?
ANDREA: ĘYeah.
DAVE: ĘYou don't come across as super hyper.
The dark makeupÉjust kidding you don't have
vampire makeup on.
ANDREA: ĘNo, the people that are always so
hyper, I'm always like oh my god it just looks
so exhausting to be in that intense all the
time.
Although you know, to each his own, right?
DAVE: ĘSo for your neurochemistry, even though
you're on basically legal meth, it doesn't
affect you in that way because we're all different.
ANDREA: ĘRight.
DAVE: ĘWhich is kind of an important thing.
When it comes to things like nootropics, what
do you think aboutÉwhat age should people
be looking at these things?
Like, is it ethical to use nootropics when
you're 12 if you don't have a condition like
ADD or Aspergers?
Or 8 or 16?
Like, what's the age?
ANDREA: ĘWell, the problem that's going on
with your brain like that is it isn't fully
formed until you're in your twenties.
I think what I've last heard was like, 25
is when your prefrontal cortex is finally
starting to become fully developed, so when
you think about these heavy duty meds that
are really messing around with those levels,
and some of the changes could be permanent,
you know.
DAVE: ĘYeah.
ANDREA: ĘWe don't know yet.
They haven't been around long enough to really
know.
As far as ADD meds, I'm absolutely on board
with children being prescribed them.
I've worked with kids when they were not on
them and then worked with them once they started
medication and let me tell you it was like
night and day.
The parents were crying, they couldn't believe
what a difference it made in this child's
ability to actually learn information and
take in information rather than you know,
too much going on for them to handle.
So for them it worked.
And not every child that's diagnosed with
ADD has ADD.
Hyperactivity is not the defining feature.
Everyone thinks hyperactivity is a defining
feature and it is not.
It's attention allocation.
Some people also have hyperactivity as an
additional trait.
It's their way of like, it's like an effect
of having ADD.
It's one of the side effects for them is the
hyperactivity.
But not everyone gets that.
So when you see kids that are hyperactive,
sometimes they're just hyperactive.
Sometimes they're just ill behaved or they
don't care or they've learned that behavior.
Whatever.
So not every child that's hyperactive is gonna
do well on ADD medication.
So that is an important thing to remember.
So I am pro drugs for that, for kids.
But not everyone that's being diagnosed with
it I think has the disorder and that's actually
doing a disservice to those kids who actually
do have it and need it because they end up
getting that stigma of you're just drugging
your kid and you can't get them to sit still,
or getting them to have higher grades, so
as far as that, that's my opinion on that.
As far as the other nootropics likeÉHonestly
I wouldn't be prescribing them to children
before their late teens at the very earliest.
Early 20s.
I couldn't even imagine seeing a child on
the anti-narcolepsy drugs.
I justÉI have no idea what that would do
to them, but it can't be good.
DAVE: ĘI worry about that because I'm probably
the biggest cheerleader for Provigil there
is for people who aren't on the spectrum or
you know, dealing with the specific cognitive
dysfunction.
And I get the question a lot on my forums.
I'm like guys you're PFC, your prefrontal
cortex, isn't formed until at least 23.
The earliest you should even think about it
is that age.
So if you're in high school, there are lots
of high school students who illegally and
unwisely borrow ADD from their friends and
that has one set of effects but at least we
kind of know that.
But some of these other things, just don't
mess around with it.
Let it grow the right way and then start messing
around with it.
That's a message that anyone who's listening
to this who's in this age group really should
listen to.
Be patient.
ANDREA: ĘWait until your twenties!
Wait until your twenties really because we
don't know what it's going to be doing to
you, but we do know the prefrontal cortex
is not fully formed and not fully matured
until your twenties.
So, it's like, there's reasons why certain
medications you can't give to children under
3 or children under 12.
There's reasons why they have those warnings.
Because in those cases we know that those
chemicals are gonna be interfering with brain
development under a certain age because we
know that through chemical trials.
These other things are still so new that we
haven't gotten to that point yet, but we do
know that they have an effect on the prefrontal
cortex and we know it's not fully formed yet,
so why mess with that at this point whenÉdo
you need the anti-narcolepsy as a high school
student?
No, you don't need it.
That's for increased performance and that's
where you want to buck up.
Learning is difficult.
Put forth the effort.
Don't mess with your brain at that point.
DAVE: ĘIt's funny that people are willing
to pump iron.
They're willing to deal with physical pain.
But stimulating the brain to change is just
as painful to the brain as it is to lift something
to your tolerance with your muscles.
ANDREA: ĘOh absolutely.
DAVE: ĘSo, and like you said, you adapt pretty
quickly with the brain.
Is there something that people should do whether
they're adults or teenagers in order to grow
their IQ?
Like a very specific either training methods
or nutritional things?
Like, what are the things we can do if we
don't want to go down the smart drug path?
ANDREA: ĘWell I mean, one of the simplest
things you can do is constantly pushing yourself
beyond what you think is possible.
So beyond your comfort zone.
You know, people think that the goal is for
things to be easy and that's actually the
opposite is true.
The goal is for things to be difficult.
Not so hard that it's impossible, but just
hard enough that you don't think you can accomplish
it but you can.
So you wanna put your goals just past the
point that you think you can achieve it, and
when you do that, it triggers dopamine, you're
more motivated, it has this positive feedback
loop and then you're constantly growing your
cognitive ability.
So, it's not pleasant.
It's actually painful, so what I like to tell
people is that you know, you should learn
to fetishize the pain of struggling through
learning something new and that really is
the sweet spot.
When it's difficult and you're struggling
and you're in this mild discomfort all the
time, then you know you're really onto something
and you're in the sweet spot.
So you've gotta come to recognize the pain
of learning and liking it and accepting that.
DAVE: ĘHere's a statistic that might interest
you.
I tend to coach people who are kind of at
the top of their career.
CEOs and hedgefund traders.
And peopleÉentrepreneursÉpeople who are
wanting more focus and more attention and
I recommend Dual N-Back training which is
a free, open source kind of software and I
know you've written about it and you've talked
about it before, the one that's proven most
to stimulate your brain.
Most of them don't finish it and I tell them
20 minutes a day for 20 days.
Anyone could do this.
Your kids in high school could do it.
In my own experience with that thing, I felt
like such a failure because it was so hard!
But I couldn't remember this thing from just
2 points back and really, it's such a simple
thing but because your brain isn't wired to
do two things at once like that, I find that
even amongst kind of theseÉI guess they would
object to being called elite people, people
who are seen as being elite thought leaders,
ultra successful people, they don't wanna
do it either because of that brain pain where
it's internalized thought is like sweat but
it's internalized as I suck.
ANDREA: ĘYeah.
DAVE: ĘHave you ever been on the I suck,
I'm a failure, I'm no good when I push my
brain?
How do people navigate that?
ANDREA: ĘWell that's sort of the one factor
that everyone forgets about is motivation.
And that thing about the Dual N-Back test,
you know the very first study that came out
that actually showed a transfer of training
a working memory test in the Dual N-Back and
actually transferring that to gain intelligence
in a generalized intelligence test that came
out in 2008 and they tried to replicate that,
so other people are training them in the Dual
N-Back and trying to get that transfer of
the increase in intelligence and some people
were successful and some weren't and they're
like "oh look, not everyone can replicate
it so therefore it's not working there" so
when I looked at it, and I found that the
people that were able to replicate those results
were people who did the Dual N-Back training,
but it was framed in a video game or it was
framed in an activity that was a Dual N-Back
and it would still train those working memory
tests but it was done in a way that was motivating
for the people taking it.
And they found that those who rated it as
more motivating to engage in, so after they
finished these tests and they interviewed
them and they said ŇHow'd you feel about
it?
Was it hard?
Was it difficult?"
So people that rated it both as difficult
and enjoyable had the highest increase in
their cognitive ability at the end of that.
So it has to not only be difficult, but you
should be enjoying it.
So that's where I say you need to fetishize
that pain.
That's where the seeking novelty comes in.
That's where doing new activities because
novelty, we like novelty, that's always fun
anyway because it's something new.
We're bored with it.
Who wants to sit down and say if you do 12
pages of long division every single night
you'll be able to raise your IQ by 2 points
and someone will say totally easy I'll just
do that every night.
You're not gonna do that for more than a couple
nights because who the hell wants to?
I wouldn't want to.
DAVE: ĘRight.
ANDREA: ĘBut if they say do these series
of games and it'll be something different
and it's fun, you're more likely to do that.
But if it's framed in terms of daily activities.
So all these things that I do to make myself
smarter, it's not just that I sit down to
play a game, I sit down to do a task, what
is the Dual N-Back doing?
You have stimuli that are competing for attention,
you're having to hold things in working memory,
well looking for new stimuli, weeding out
the things that are signals from noise and
all this stuff.
So that's what it's actually doing fundamentally.
So how do you take that concept and apply
it to everyday activities, you know?
So I say when I want to concentrate I reduce
all the stimuli down to me and my computer
or what I'm thinking, but what if my goal
now is to you know, train my brain a little
bit.
Maybe I'll introduceÉmaybe I'll work in a
coffee shop and force myself to do the same
kind of work with stimuli around me that's
competing for my attention.
That kind of thing.
So I am still kind of doing the same kind
of activity, but in a different environment
and it's a natural environment and so if you
push yourself to engage in activities that
mimic the same kinds of effects that you get
from the Dual N-Back, you're more likely to
follow through on that.
DAVE: ĘThere's something to be said for novelty
and there's also kind of changes in the brain
structure that can happen.
You mentioned I think on Google plus a while
back, something about the physical evidence
of structural brain differences from people
who wake up early versus people who stay up
late.
So, alright, we're talking about pushing the
brain and training the brain into doing uncomfortable
things.
ANDREA: ĘYeah.
DAVE: ĘI'm a night owl.
I study computer science, which means I literally
would stay up until 3 or 4am if I let myself
and be quite happy that way.
ANDREA: ĘI've been in that.
Yeah.
DAVE: ĘI just sleep in for a long time.
I have kids so that's not how I roll, I just
sleep less.
But, okay, number one.
Do you wake up early or do you stay up late?
ANDREA: ĘOh, I'm a night owl.
DAVE: ĘWell you have ADD I would've bet that.
ANDREA: ĘYeah.
And my boyfriend's a programmer so this household,
it's like going to bed at 4, waking up at
11, that kind of thing.
And you know, it just works best for me.
That's just how I work best.
But you know, for a time I did have a job
where I did have to get up at 5 oŐclock every
morning and I had to be at work from 9 to
5 and then you know, I had to force myself
to be on during those hours, and that was
really difficult.
I was not performing optimally.
DAVE: ĘWas it good for your brain to learn
to do that or was it just painful?
ANDREA: ĘIn that case I think it was painful.
It was akin to shock.
So the goal is to kind of like, do it so that
it's not impossible.
And then you struggle, struggle but can never
get there.
DAVE: ĘYeah.
ANDREA: ĘYou wanna put the life raft just
past your fingertips and then okay then you
get it and then you push it back a little
more and then you get it, so completely, like
I went from going to bed at 4am to waking
up at 5am and that was just really difficult
and I don't think I benefited from that.
If I had extended it an hour each night over
a period of two weeksÉ
DAVE: ĘYeah.
ANDREA: ĘThat probably would have been better.
DAVE: ĘThat's a little more natural, like
treating jet lag basically.
ANDREA: ĘYeah, yeah.
Exactly.
DAVE: ĘI went and I taught myself to wake
up at 5 or 5:30 every morning for about two
years I'd wake up and I'd meditate for an
hour because I figured out an hour of meditation
replaced two hours of sleep.
So as long as I was getting a certain window
of sleep, I was able to save time that way,
but it still took discipline and that's not
my preferred wake up time today and the idea
that I could teach my brain to do that and
still be on during the day was kind of amazing.
So I was wondering if you had come across
research or in your own life had played around
with brain plasticity and wake up time.
ANDREA: ĘI haven't seen anything on that
specifically, but the way I look at it, you
gotta choose your battles here.
DAVE: ĘOh yeah.
ANDREA: ĘThere are plenty of areas in my
life where I can challenge myself and push
myself.
Sleeping is one of those things that I don't
wanna mess around with.
I really love sleeping.
I used to fantasize about napping when I was
in college.
But I also get insomnia so it's kind of a
catch 22 there.
So with my sleeping I don't like to mess around
with it too much.
DAVE: ĘHow much do you sleep?
ANDREA: ĘUsually around 6 or 7 hours a night
normally.
DAVE: ĘOkay.
ANDREA: ĘI always want to get more sleep
but sometimes it's not possible.
DAVE: ĘIt's not possible because you just
wake up or it's not possible because you have
stuff to do?
ANDREA: ĘBoth.
Usually I have a hard time falling asleep,
so often times I'll be lying there awake and
I'm like oh I'll do some work while I'm awake
and the stimulates my brain even more and
then I can't fall asleep because I'm thinking
about all the stuff I'm working on and it
just perpetuates this negative feedback loop
and so I struggle with falling asleep and
then I end up automatically waking up a certain
time everyday.
So how much sleep I get depends on how successful
I am at actually falling asleep.
DAVE: ĘGot it.
So it's a going to sleep thing.
It's funny how much of an impact.
I've found that in my own life, there was
multiple sleep things that I managed to overcome
with training, breathing, or amino acids and
neurotransmitter modulation and things like
that.
And when I deal with like, super high performance
people, same thing.
Either they have a hard time going to sleep
because they're so focused on the stuff they're
doing and they like it or they're worried
about it and they keep running in their mind,
or they wake up in the middle of the night
thinking about stuff and they can't go back
to sleep, so it's always either trouble going
to sleep or I wake up and I'm laying in bed
for hours and hours and I think each of them
has different behavioral roots and the way
they learn to do that and the ways they're
doing it and sometimes different biochemical
roots that can be as varied as food versus
stress levels and things.
ANDREA: ĘYeah.
DAVE: ĘLet's talk about food for a minute.
Food and sleep and what it does or doesn't
do for growing IQ.
Like, how important is food for your brain
and what are the recommendations that you
think are most important for keeping brains
strong?
ANDREA: ĘFood is important, and I'm not a
nutritionist so I can't give too much specific
information, but I was at one point, back
in the early 2000s competitive weight training
was my thing, so I was on a diet where I was
eating very lean protein, complex carbohydrates,
a certain amount of fats and I was very, Ęvery
militant about my eating.
6 small meals a day, no processed sugar, all
this stuff, and I had the easiest time sleeping
and waking up.
It was like I never slept better in my whole
life as when I was and I was physically exhausting
myself in the gym too and I still just had
the most restful sleep.
I could wake up at 5, I was learning better,
but what I found is that if I'm eating a lot
of sugar or if I'm not paying attention to
how much protein I'm eating, or if my diet
gets off track, I will start to feel sluggish
and I can't concentrate.
It ruins my concentration.
It ruins my ability to learn new things.
And so I remember because I'm aware of this
now, if I have to pull an all nighter or I
know that I have some really important stuff
going on that I need to really focus on, I
will make sure that one of my top priorities
is my diet.
Making sure that I'm eating regular meals,
cutting out the sugar, cutting out the things
you know, no white bread or flour or anything
like that, and I do this because I know that's
going to help my brain function at the optimal
level and when I do pay attention, it does
make a difference.
DAVE: ĘAre you gluten free?
ANDREA: ĘI am not.
No.
DAVE: ĘSo you have ADD and you know food
affects you.
Have you gone hardcore gluten free to see
what would happen?
ANDREA: ĘYou know, I haven't because you
knowÉ I've read some evidence about how it
helpsÉ some of my clients years ago were
on gluten free diets and I remember I would
track their behavior and I collected data
on their ability to learn on gluten free and
not gluten free and for me I didn't really
see an effect with them, so I guess my experience
with watching that it didn't really have a
significant effect so I never really felt
compelled to try it myself.
So who knows.
DAVE: ĘGot it.
Do you subscribe to the Gluteomorphin sort
of dietary breakdown where gluten turns into
an opiate like substance in the gut that can
effect the brain?
Have you come across that?
ANDREA: ĘI have come across that.
I guess my experience isn't enough that I
can really comment on that fully.
DAVE: ĘI know you're not a nutritionist either,
so I don't really wanna go outside yourÉ
ANDREA: ĘThe biggest thing for me was really
cutting out sugar.
It's had the biggest benefit that I've noticed.
DAVE: ĘIs that do you think because of cortisol?
Sugar raises cortisol and makes the stress
hormone?
ANDREA: ĘYeah I'm sure that has to do with
that.
DAVE: ĘOkay.
ANDREA: ĘAnd I'm also very sensitive to blood
sugar crashes too.
So I notice that if I keep my blood sugar
as steady as possible, then I'm able to function
at my best too.
So if my blood sugar gets too low, I get really
grumpy.
DAVE: ĘYeah.
ANDREA: ĘI wanna kill somebody.
So I try to maintain the even blood sugar
levels at all times so, any kind of really
high sugar content foods kind of ruins that
for me.
DAVE: ĘWhat about intermittent fasting?
Either Bulletproof Intermittent Fasting or
not?
Have you played around with that?
Does it work?
And do you have any thoughts on that in mental
productivity?
ANDREA: ĘYeah, you know I've heard a lot
of people doing that, the fasting.
I've tried it myself and I've found that I
cannot function by fasting, just me personally.
And I'm sure that has more to do with just
my own neurochemistry than whether or not
fasting works for other people.
I have friends that do it on a regular basis
and it seems to work for them.
I wish it would work for me but I find that
for my peak performance I need to keep a steady
intake of food at some level.
The absolute fasting is difficult.
It's hard for me to concentrate.
DAVE: ĘI've found with my client base who
are not necessarily normal people, that a
few of them do normal like Bulletproof Intermittent
Fasting, but even then people are in good
shape and all, they start to crash a little
bit around lunch time and they get a little
cold and distracted and cranky.
And they still have a few hours before they're
going to eat.
So when they switch to eating only fat in
the morning, like you do with the Bulletproof
Intermittent fast, they maintain the energy
level because the calories are still there
but the body doesn't turn on any of the sugar
metabolism or protein metabolism types of
things.
ANDREA: ĘRight, because the fat takes longer
to metabolize so it stays in their longer.
DAVE: ĘYeah so for me, I can doÉnow that
I'm where I am metabolically, I can handle
a full on fast.
But I'm still more comfortable and just more
focused if I have an ounce or two or more
of fat in the morning and I still seem to
get the benefits of the fast.
How about things like Alpha Brain?
Things that raises acetylcholine.
Have you played around with those at all?
ANDREA: ĘNo, I have not.
DAVE: ĘOkay cool.
ANDREA: ĘYeah.
DAVE: ĘSo I don't wanna get you on a long
list of smart drugs to ask you about.
ANDREA: ĘYeah as far as like, smart drugs,
I just wanna emphasize the point because so
many people ask me about nootropics.
So many people because my area in grad school
my focus was intelligence.
And the fact that you could increase it.
So when people ask me about taking nootropics,
ŇDo they work, can they justÉthese principles
that you're giving me to get smarter, they're
really difficult and they take time.
Can't I just take smart drugs instead?
Wouldn't it be easier?Ó
And I say it will be easier, but you're probably
not gonna benefit.
So when you look at what they actually do,
it's like these drugs, they prime your brain
for learning.
They prime your brain in order to make connections.
Make those synapses and actually grow your
cognitive ability.
It doesn't do it for you.
It gets you all primed and ready for it, like
having all the best gear you know, and having
all the best equipment, you know getting a
good nights sleep, all these things, you have
everything working for you and then you set
out to learn new things.
And really that's the function of the nootropics.
It's getting your brain in the optimal state
for learning.
So you can't pop the pill and then expect
to know particle physics if you've never studied
it.
It will make you better able to learn that
subject once you put forth the really difficult
effort to learn that material, but it's not
gonna magically do it for you.
It's not magic, it's science.
DAVE: ĘIt's funny to me that we as a society
believe it's okay to take creatine and glutamine
before you go lift heavy things in order to
increase your training efficiencyÉ
ANDREA: ĘYeah.
DAVE: ĘBut not when you do the same thing
before you sit in a classroom.
ANDREA: ĘThat's when I think it's okay.
I'm not anti-nootropics, but you can't expect
it to do all the work for you.
DAVE: ĘYeah.
ANDREA: ĘLike taking a weight loss drug.
I just take a pill and the pounds are gonna
melt off me.
Well not really, what it's gonna do is it's
gonna make your curium more efficient maybe
or your workout more intense you know, but
you actually have to work your muscles.
You can't just sit there and expect your muscles
to magically grow, but they will grow better
if you do take creatine.
You know, so people need to kind of like,
reframe how they're thinking about nootropics.
It's not in exchange, it's not instead of,
it's in addition to.
DAVE: ĘThat is so well said.
And you've inspired me to write something
about that on the blog.
ANDREA: ĘWell good!
DAVE: ĘI'll link it back to you when I do
that because it's such an important point.
And people say ŇOh you're cheating or you're
doping and I'm like okay fine, I'm cheating
or I'm doping, of course I told you what I
was doing and it's not against the rules so
I'm doing it.Ó
ANDREA: ĘRight.
DAVE: ĘBut if I'm doping and I don't go into
the race, who cares?
You didn't achieve that goal.
So you've definitely inspired me to share
that message in writing.
Now there's a question, Andrea, that I've
asked every guest on the show towards the
end of the show because we're running up on
our 45 minute limit.
And it's based on your entire life.
Not just the work you're doing or the research
you've done.
What are the top 3 recommendations you have
for people to help them perform better?
Basically to kick more ass?
Don't stick just to your research, it could
be have good parents, whatever it is.
ANDREA: ĘOh, in life?
DAVE: ĘYeah.
Share some wisdom with us.
ANDREA: ĘOkay.
One major thing is don't listen to the naysayers.
One of my very good friends, Scott Barry Kaufman
just wrote a book called Ungifted: Intelligence
Redefined and it's basically saying, you know,
people are always telling you you have what
you're given with.
You have your genetics.
You have your family socioeconomic status.
Whatever you're given and that's what you
have to work with and that's pretty much determining
where you're gonna go in life.
And so what ends up happening is people get
this attitude where well, I came from a poor
family or I was labeled as special needs and
I was told this and that and this is where
I'm at right now, and so they give up on setting
these high goals for themselves and they believe
that they can't achieve these things that
they seem to believe are impossible and I
say you can achieve almost anything that you
set out to do.
I'm not saying that it's 100% because I will
never be the next Michael Jordan and I know
that, but I can certainly become a hell of
a lot better at sports if I set goals for
myself when I put it out there.
So really, not setting limits on yourself.
So really, not seeing yourself as you know,
dealing with whatever you've been dealt with
in life.
Think of it as what is your potential?
What could you do?
What is possible?
Daring to dream that impossible dream and
it sounds so cheesy, but really, if you don't
ever set high goals for yourself, things that
seem impossible, you will never ever reach
them.
So that's the biggest thing is really kind
of setting high goals and not giving into
limitations.
That's the first one.
Another thingÉoh boy.
Constantly pushing yourself with learning,
and not just sticking within your field.
Seeking novelty is such a big thing.
So I'm a novelty junkie, you know.
It's impossible for me to have one full time
job where I'm only doing one thing.
I've tried it multiple times.
I can't do it.
I have to always be doing multiple things
and that's what makes me happy.
But through doing that, I feel I have such
a richer life because I'm reaching out and
expanding my horizons in so many different
fields.
So being multi-disciplinary is going to become
a bigger and bigger trend in the years to
come.
So constantly thinking in that direction rather
than narrowing such a small area or study,
I think always thinking multidisciplinary
is a good thing.
So did you want another one?
DAVE: ĘThat was two things.
So we've got one more in there.
One of the 85 doors that's open, just pick
that one.
ANDREA: ĘOkay.
You know what?
Considering my research on heroism and ex-altruism
and sociopathy, I guess having the courage
to stand up and do something.
Even if you're the only one doing it.
So it's really difficult to stand up for what
you think is right.
It's difficult to be the only person when
everyone else is kind of telling you that
you're wrong.
But if you believe in yourself and you believe
in what your cause is, having the courage
to stand up for that.
Because if you are right, in time, people
will eventually come over to your side, but
that intermittent time between when you first
step out and everyone else starts getting
on board with your idea, it's a very difficult
time period.
And a lot of people, they kind of fail during
that because it's hard.
So just having the courage to stick it out
and have faith that if you're on the right
path, other people will join you eventually.
So, being courageous.
DAVE: ĘWhat an awesome list.
I appreciate you coming up with those.
And I've seen a lot of people squirm trying
to think of those on the spot, but that's
one of the reasons that people come up with
creative amazing answers.
I'm always amazed at how few repeat answers
come through, even after we're nearing 70
or so podcasts.
ANDREA: ĘWow.
DAVE: ĘJust that people, they've walked their
own path, so thank you for sharing that.
You know, I really like those answers.
Now, there's another question for you.
Where can people find out more about your
work?
Where can they sign up to get notice of your
new book and things like that?
Where should they go to find you?
ANDREA: ĘOkay, well my personal website is
in a state of construction, right now.
But if you go to my Google+ profile, so if
you just look for me and if you could link
that up in one of the placesÉ
DAVE: ĘIt'll be in the show notes and when
we release it, we'll put links to everything
you mention here.
ANDREA: ĘOkay.
Yeah, so if you go to my Google+ profile,
you can find links there to my blog, to all
the work I've written.
There's links to everything on there and I
will be linking up my new blog to that profile.
So looking for me on Google will help you
find everything that you need.
DAVE: ĘAlright!
Andrea Kuszewski, thank you so much for taking
time to talk about such a wide, diverse number
of topics.
I had a great time with you today.
ANDREA: ĘOh, you're very welcome.
I had a great time too.
Thank you so much for having me.
Featured
Andrea on Google Plus
Andrea on Science 2.0
@AndreaKuszewski
Resources
Walking the Line Between Good and Evil: The
Common Thread of Heroes and Villains
Dual N-Back FAQ
Why Interacting with a Woman Can Leave Men
ŇCognitively ImpairedÓ
Ungifted: Intelligence Redefine
Bulletproof
Bulletproof¨ Coffee
Alpha BRAINŞ
Bulletproof Toolbox
Podcast #74, Andrea Kuszewski
22
Š The Bulletproof Executive 2013
