PROTESTERS: Don't shoot! Don't shoot!
JUDY WOODRUFF: Outrage over police killings
of black people has fueled unrest from coast
to coast.
PROTESTERS: George Floyd!
PROTESTER: Black lives matter!
PROTESTERS: Black lives matter!
AMNA NAWAZ: And an extraordinary scene in
the nation's capital.
PROTESTER: No justice.
PROTESTERS: No peace!
PROTESTER: No justice!
YAMICHE ALCINDOR: Some cruisers drove into
crowds.
TAY ANDERSON, Board Member, Denver Public
Schools: As a black man, every day I wake
up and wonder, will I be able to go home?
PROTESTERS: I can't breathe! I can't breathe!
I can't breathe! I can't breathe!
ANNOUNCER: "Race Matters: America in Crisis,"
a "PBS NewsHour" special.
JUDY WOODRUFF: Good evening. I'm Judy Woodruff.
Welcome to this "PBS NewsHour" special, "Race
Matters: America in Crisis."
The death of George Floyd at the hands of
police in Minnesota has ignited outrage across
the world, and once again exposed the deep
wounds of racism here in the U.S. Protesters
have filled the streets in cities large and
small, demanding justice and change.
The vast majority have been peaceful, but
there has been violence and looting, and there've
been aggressive tactics from law enforcement.
How Americans see all this is filtered in
part through the lens of race, according to
our new poll, one we do with NPR and Marist;
62 percent of Americans say they believe the
demonstrations are legitimate protests; 77
percent of black Americans feel that way,
but, among white Americans, it's 58 percent;
28 percent of all Americans say they believe
the demonstrations are people acting unlawfully.
We want to examine how we got to this moment
and where we go from here. That is a long
conversation, and we think it's important
to start by listening to black Americans.
In days to come, all of us will decide what,
if anything, will change.
Tonight, we will ask questions about policing,
inequality and what it means to simply live
while black in the U.S.
But we begin with two influential voices who
have thought long and hard about black history
and America's future.
Filmmaker and producer Ava DuVernay's work
has focused on the black experience, including
the film "Selma," the documentary "13th,"
and the series "When They See Us." Her media
company, ARRAY, has a new online educational
platform about these issues.
Darren Walker is the president of the Ford
Foundation, which works to reduce poverty,
improve equality and social justice.
For the record, the foundation is a funder
of the "NewsHour."
Darren Walker, let me start with you.
Why do you think what happened to George Floyd
and the reaction to it has the hold on us
that it seems to have, these massive protests
that go on day after day across this country?
DARREN WALKER, President, Ford Foundation:
Judy, I think the moment of reckoning for
this country on race has come.
George Floyd has captured our hearts, our
broken hearts, because, for African-Americans,
his murder was but an extension in a long
list of names over many, many years, so we
actually, as a community, were not surprised.
I think, for white America, white America
was deeply wounded and shocked by the visual
of his murder over eight-and-a-half minutes.
And I think, for white America, deniability
of racism in our policing and in our nation
is no longer an option.
And that is why it has gripped us and resonates
so deeply in the American psyche.
JUDY WOODRUFF: Ava DuVernay, is it something
that is a simply repeat of what we have seen
over and over again, or is there something
different about what happened to him, this
moment?
AVA DUVERNAY, Filmmaker: Well, certainly,
the act of black death is not new. That's
-- you know I think, though, that there was
something about the tape itself that was unusual,
as someone who, unfortunately, watches this
material a lot for my work.
And that was the very clear framing of both
people looking directly to the camera. You
know, in other instances of murder by police
on tape, we may see the victim through a body
cam, which obscures the officer wearing the
camera. We may see it from a distance on a
security camera.
It's very rare that we have seen both parties
in the frame looking directly toward the lens.
For me, that's what was startling. I really
had to interrogate for myself, why did -- why
is this bringing me to my knees, especially
when I'm so used to watching this stuff?
And I came to the conclusion that I could
see that white officer's face. I could see
his disdain. I could see his intention, in
my view. I could see the callous disregard
for human life.
JUDY WOODRUFF: And, Darren Walker, there's
a gut-level demand for justice right now.
What would justice look like?
DARREN WALKER: We need to reform the systems
that produce too much injustice, starting
with our economic system.
We have to look at fundamental questions in
our economy, like the basic question of how
much capital do we allocate for workers, so
that we don't have an economy that produces
too much prosperity for people like me, and
too little prosperity for people like George
Floyd?
We have to look at our criminal justice system
and ask, why is it we lock up so many black
and brown men and women in this country? We
have to look at our educational system and
ask, why is it that we have school districts
side by side, one affluent with a rich tax
base and great schools, next door, a poor
district without school books?
This is America. The question is, will we
go back to the playbook that we always do,
which is to have leaders make statements,
to have corporations issue platitudes, make
some contributions to black organizations,
and then go back to business as usual?
That playbook will not work on this occasion.
JUDY WOODRUFF: Well, when it comes to the
playbook for the future, at first, it seems
to me, people want to -- need to talk about
and need to have -- come to some kind of an
agreement, Ava DuVernay, on who is at fault
here.
We know the policemen are involved. Is it
generations of white Americans? Is it the
police across the country? Is it politicians?
Who is at fault?
AVA DUVERNAY: All of the problems that we're
seeing now, their foundations lie in our racist
history as a country that's never been reconciled.
The question now is, do people who believe
in justice and dignity of all colors and kinds,
can we digest that and start to let it nourish
us, as we really try to dismantle these systems?
We will have to get out of the framework,
the way of thinking that any of this is salvageable,
because it's truly not. It was built on a
rotten foundation.
DARREN WALKER: I would just say, Judy, to
this point, we have to also acknowledge that
what has happened in this country in the last
two decades is a context of growing inequality
in America.
And we have had many white people who feel
left behind. Inequality is so pernicious in
a democracy, because inequality asphyxiates
hope, and hope is the oxygen of democracy.
And so we have too many hopeless people, black
and white.
But African-Americans have a historic reckoning
that this country has never come to terms
with. We have a generation of downwardly mobile
white people in this country.
So, we have today a confluence of two realities,
the reality of black (INAUDIBLE) which is
right, and the reality of growing white economic
vulnerability. That is what we are seeing
on our streets.
JUDY WOODRUFF: Given that, Ava DuVernay, how
do you begin to make a difference?
AVA DUVERNAY: It's really about inviting people,
particularly Caucasian people, to put their
heads together and think about strategies
and tactics that only white people can really
do.
Imagine white folk got together who were well-meaning
people who believed in justice and dignity
for all, packed together with strategies along
those lines, very muscular, very demonstrative,
beyond statements, beyond social media hashtags,
but thought of strategies to actually work
to dismantle these things actively. I think
it would be a game-changer.
JUDY WOODRUFF: Darren Walker, civil rights
movement, there was Dr. Martin Luther King
and other leaders from the white community,
from the black community, leading the way.
Who are the leaders of today?
DARREN WALKER: There are courageous leaders
willing to raise their hands, to roll up their
sleeve.
We have to be the leaders we need. We need
our corporate leaders to throw out their playbook
and start afresh, to get over, put a nail
in the coffin of the Milton Friedman ideology
that corporations' only purpose is to make
money for shareholders.
We have to have our policy-makers and our
political system respond to the people who
are in the streets. I am inspired by these
protesters, the peaceful protesters, who simply
want to live in a fair society. That is not
too much to ask. And the time has come for
America to save itself, to save our democracy.
JUDY WOODRUFF: Ava DuVernay, what would you
say about this question of, who do we look
to for leadership?
And the other question I have for you is,
what do you say to the young African-American
boy or girl who is sitting there right now,
maybe with a white friend, both of them fearful
about the future?
AVA DUVERNAY: We have learned from our American
history that leadership with one leader kind
of put on a pedestal is dangerous.
Every black leader that has risen through
the American media apparatus has been killed
or exiled, that a distributed leadership model
is the most healthy and most productive, in
that there is no one place to pinpoint the
scorn of the system.
I would tell young people that these are not
our darkest days, that our darkest days are
when voices were being suppressed, where black
people were not allowed to write or read by
the white power structure, where we were not
able to walk into municipal buildings, having
to go through the back. There have been gains
made. We have to use those as tools in this
new era and keep developing our systems and
our strategies to defend ourselves.
And so that's what I would invite the next
generation to start thinking about now. A
lot of white people called me and texted me,
great friends of mine, people that I love
dearly, asking me, what do I do?
And my answer is, educate yourself. There
have been white allies throughout the history
of America who have gotten together and come
up with muscular strategies for change. And
many of them have worked.
And so I feel like there's kind of this question,
what do I do, what do I do, which really is
asking for black labor in this moment to help
you think through what to do. Trust me, there's
something to do right where you are.
JUDY WOODRUFF: And that brings us to the last
question I had, Darren Walker, which is, how
do you give people hope? What is the message
of hope that you have right now for everyone
watching?
DARREN WALKER: I am very hopeful, Judy.
There are so many reasons for hope, first
because we live in a democracy. And every
American needs to vote, and that we can see
on the streets across this country reasons
for hope, young, black and brown, and queer,
and people in wheelchairs, people old and
young in the streets.
They are in the streets because they too love
America. They want America to be America.
AVA DUVERNAY: I believe that we can do better,
and that's where hope lies.
I believe that this might be a tipping point.
It's hard to say, you know, but I'm hopeful
that it is. And I will be working to engage
with that hope actively. And that's what I
invite others to do alongside us.
JUDY WOODRUFF: Ava DuVernay, Darren Walker,
we thank you both so much. Thank you.
AVA DUVERNAY: Thank you.
JUDY WOODRUFF: We turn now to the issue of
policing, and start by hearing from someone
who knows firsthand about law enforcement
and its intersection with black Americans.
Four years ago, Terence Crutcher was shot
and killed by a police officer in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
Yamiche Alcindor recently spoke with his sister,
Tiffany.
And a warning: Some of the images will be
difficult to watch.
DR. TIFFANY CRUTCHER, Sister of Terence Crutcher:
My name is Dr. Terence Crutcher, twin sister
of Terence Crutcher, who was killed in Tulsa,
Oklahoma, in September of 2016 by a white
female police officer by the name of Betty
Jo Shelby.
Terence, they called him Big Crutch. He was
a gentle giant. He was just a beautiful, beautiful
soul.
He was leaving to go to a church service with
my mom and dad, and, 15 minutes later, he
was dead. And so his vehicle stalled in the
middle of the road. From the testimony of
Betty Shelby, she said she thought he was
high, and that he may have been having a mental
health breakdown, and she wanted to help him,
and then saw Terence not communicating, not
looking well, and she called for backup.
Next thing we know, if you look at the video,
there's police officers fleeing in. There's
helicopters looming.
MAN: I think he may have just been Tasered.
WOMAN: Shots fired!
DR. TIFFANY CRUTCHER: And then the video just
stops, and Terence is gone.
And we found out that he was Tased and shot
simultaneously. And I know he was unarmed.
And I know he didn't see the bullet coming.
And the next thing that I remember and that
I see every night when I lay down is his body
on the ground with blood everywhere.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR: What was your reaction to
watching the death of George Floyd on video?
DR. TIFFANY CRUTCHER: George on video, I felt
like Terence was shot all over again.
This time, it was different. You know, hearing
George cry out for his mom, and watching the
officer not even care or move, I -- elicited
a stress reaction physically. And I couldn't
sleep for at least three days. And I broke
out in hives from the stress. And it's just
been, I would say, traumatizing.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR: What don't people understand
about families whose loved ones are killed
on video? What's not shown about your experience?
DR. TIFFANY CRUTCHER: What's not shown is
that it's impacting us in a severe way from
a mental health standpoint.
For example, I got pulled over after Terence
was killed, and I took his little boy, Terence
Jr. and some of his cousins to the movies.
And when the police turned on the lights and
just sped up behind us, we pulled over, but
the kids were screaming hysterically, saying
that: "We're going to be shot. We're going
to be killed."
And I had to calm them down. And Terence's
kids are still in counseling. They go twice
a month. And, right now, his daughters are
saying: I wish that people would have protested
for my dad like they're doing for George,
or like they're doing for Ahmaud.
And they're dealing with the situation every
single day, every time that happens on national
TV.
JUDY WOODRUFF: We have seen that same exhaustion,
anger and frustration in the thousands and
thousands of protesters out across the country.
For many, George Floyd's death was just the
latest example of decades of mistreatment
by law enforcement.
Beyond the individual cases, like Floyd's
and Terence Crutcher's, and Rodney King before
them, statistics show African-Americans bear
a disproportionate toll at the hands of police.
A 2019 study found that black men and boys
are almost 2.5 times more likely to be killed
by police than white men and boys. But the
disparities manifest in ways beyond fatal
encounters.
And, as we will hear, the effect on many black
Americans from all walks of life runs deep.
Yamiche Alcindor will have a conversation
on all this.
But, first, we hear more voices of those affected.
ABOUCOU LIBALY, Protester: You have a daily
fear of your life for no reason.
I want to be able to go outside and do whatever
the hell I want to do without worrying about
someone trying to call the cops on me because
I'm standing in front of their store, or someone
trying to call the cops on me because I'm
walking across the street or I want to walk
in their store with a hoodie on.
That's how I want to walk. It's normal.
TAYLOR JONES, Demonstrator: For it to be 2020,
and not 1960, and it's still happening, this
is heartbreaking. And nothing is being done.
DAKOTA PATTON, Colorado: It's happening so
much that I expect that a black man's life
each month is going to get taken by the police.
DENNIS SCOTT, Washington, D.C.: I have been
stopped by the police when I had a white girlfriend,
and he asked how we knew each other. And I
told him. And he said, "I guess that's permitted
now."
JULIANNE ROBERTSON, Washington, D.C.: I have
four children. And I have worked so hard to
cultivate their lives and their beingness.
And so the idea that they can have a random
encounter with a police officer, and they
get to end their life, they get to end their
future.
TAYLOR JONES: My plans were to actually be
a police officer, but then I realized that
that one good apple in a bad batch really
doesn't make a difference, because once you
sign your life over to that badge, you have
to be loyal to who you work for.
CORIE MCCOWIN, Nebraska: My hope for the future
is that the injustices that continue to happen
over and over again, that they can be learned
from and used as a lesson in order to create
change.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR: For a closer look at these
concerns and fears, I'm joined by Tracie Keesee,
co-founder for the Center for Policing Equity.
She is also a former Denver police captain
and a former NYPD deputy commissioner of equity
and inclusion.
And Tef Poe, he's an activist and rapper who
started Hands Up United in reaction to the
killing of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri.
The group advocates for more accountability
in policing.
Thanks so much for both of you for being here.
I'm going to start with you, Tef.
What was your reaction to seeing the death
of George Floyd?
TEF POE, Activist/Rapper: I felt very disturbed
that a law enforcement officer could murder
somebody like that in cold blood. And I was
even more disturbed by the fact that the other
officers stood around and watched it.
And I think that speaks a lot about the state
of our country today.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR: Tracie, what did you think
when you saw that white police officer kneeling
on George Floyd's neck for eight minutes and
46 seconds?
TRACIE KEESEE, Co-Founder, UCLA Center for
Policing Equity: For me, it's not just why,
why are you doing that? It is one of which,
why is everybody standing around, and why
isn't anybody intervening?
I think, like most, I was physically almost
sick to my stomach, again, conflicted. I have
been in uniform. I have certainly been in
spaces where I have had to use force. But
just the immediate reaction to me is, why
again? Why are we here?
YAMICHE ALCINDOR: Tef, talk to me a little
bit about your experience as a black man and
your interactions with police.
TEF POE: I try to keep my interactions with
law enforcement as minimalistic as possible.
It can go any type of way in that -- in those
discourses. And it usually doesn't go in my
favor. Even if I'm calling the police on someone
that could be attacking me or breaking into
my home, it could still result in me ending
up the person that's dead.
So, my first memory of the police in a real
sense as a young black boy is my father pulling
into a driveway to back out, because we had
drove into a neighborhood and got lost. And
the police pulled into the driveway and pulled
us over, pulled him out the car, questioned
him, threatened to take him to jail because
they said that they knew we didn't live at
that house.
And I just remember that. And that's -- that
left a lasting impression to me about interacting
with the police almost for the rest of my
life, even to being a young adult myself who's
had pistols aimed at me by the police, shot
at by the police.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR: Tracie, what do you make
of what Tef is saying? Where have you seen
bias play out in policing? And what reforms
do you think need to take place?
TRACIE KEESEE: So, I mean, Tef doesn't need
me to validate his voice. I think he said
it perfectly. That is the experience of many
black men in America that he so aptly described.
And when we talk about, where do you see bias,
I mean, you see bias in all areas. But I think
what you have got to do is back up and understand
the system of criminal justice itself was
designed to do exactly what it's designed
to do.
And so, when we talk about structural racism,
we talk about how it plays out and what it
looks like, we know there's disparities in
the outcomes of policing. And what's happening
here today is not a reform movement. This
is a movement that's going to require something
absolutely different than what is happening.
And unless there is a coordinated effort to
look at what we are calling policing today,
and if we're not taking into account about
how communities believe their public safety
should be served and delivered, or even if
not, we can talk about reforms all we want.
And I don't know about Tef, but, for me, you
know, there's exhaustion. There's generational
exhaustion here. And it's just not going to
be, nor will it be allowed to be, the same.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR: Tef, I met you in Ferguson
in 2014. You were active in the protests then
after the killing of Michael Brown.
Why do you think this moment in 2020 is different
and is happening? And what do you make of
that exhaustion that Tracie is talking about?
TEF POE: Tracie couldn't be more correct.
Donald Trump is a master of outrage fatigue.
Every week, every day, every hour, every millisecond
of the functioning day, there is something
to be outraged about.
And we have to remember that the Obama administration
did not challenge the militarization of policing
to the degree that we have reworked our memories
to remember. And we also have to remember
that we are now functioning in this linear
aspect of a two-party system, where neither
the Democrats nor the Republicans are giving
us suitable answers about what to do about
rogue policing.
As things currently stand, this isn't really
a black or white thing anymore. So, that's
the real problem for the United States government
at this point, that the citizens are genuinely
uprising on their own and taking matters into
their own hands.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR: The Minneapolis Police Department
was credited in some ways as trying to implement
some of the changes and reforms that activists
were calling for, but this still happened.
Tracie, can you talk a little bit about the
barriers to change here?
TRACIE KEESEE: And so one of the things is
the culture of policing itself. This is not
new. This is not a conversation that is just
popping up on the radar. There's been long
conversations about the culture of policing
and the narratives that support some of the
things that happen.
The other thing, too, is, you have chiefs
that don't last, right? So, if you have someone
who's trying to do the right thing, chiefs'
tenures are usually three to four years. That's
not enough to do much of anything, but to
maybe do policies and train folks.
The other barriers is that you really need
to think about what's happening here are not
just officers who are engaging. You have to
fundamentally think about, what type of police
or officer do you want? What do you -- what
do you want in them? What should they be able
to demonstrate and do?
One of the sort of fixes to this were to have
officers of color, black officers in organizations.
And if you have not, take the time and speak
to officers of color and women, and they will
definitely tell you that, when you're in a
male-dominant profession or a white male-dominant
profession, there are hurdles.
And, typically, folks who want to do the right
thing meet barriers. People who speak out
against the right thing meet barriers. And
then you have the organization itself, which
is typically still predominately white male.
There are some exceptions to that.
But you also have to think about what you
have going on inside when you look at organizations
where decisions are being made, where all
the patrol officers are down at the bottom
-- of color are at the bottom, and as you
look up through the organization, through
people who have an impact on -- direct impact
on policy and community, it is not reflective.
Part of moving forward will be, you have to
address those things. And there's been plenty,
plenty of recommendations, plenty of evidence-based
pieces that have been given that can help
do that.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR: What do you say to people
who think all police are just bad? Why do
you still believe in this system of policing?
TRACIE KEESEE: So, first, let me talk about
all police are bad. I mean, I understand where
that would come from. I get it.
But, because I worked with them personally,
I was one, I know that's not the case. I know
there's people inside that organization, many
organizations trying to do the right thing.
The question that's left on the table is,
what does that look like moving forward? And
so we do know that going back to the old rule
book of how you engage and how do you inform
your policies not going to work.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR: Last word to you, Tef.
Where do we go from here? What do you want
to see happen?
TEF POE: What I would love to see happen is
for both black and white police officers to
really open up their third eye and understand
what's happening here.
You are allowing yourselves to be weaponized,
to the good of the oligarchs, to the good
of people who have no good for you. In a sense,
you have become the toy soldiers of the rich.
And that can change right now, but we, as
the citizens, can't change that. And there's
no way in hell that law enforcement should
be at war with the constituencies that they
live next door to right now.
Like, when you take that uniform off, you
live next door to the same people you're shooting
at. And that's ridiculous.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR: So much to talk about.
Thank you, Tracie and Tef.
JUDY WOODRUFF: As we discussed earlier tonight,
this past week's protests have also reignited
demands about tackling deep inequality in
America.
African-Americans face staggering gaps in
wealth and income, in education, housing,
and health care, gaps that have been laid
bare and made worse by the coronavirus pandemic.
Even as today's jobs report for the month
of May saw white unemployment drop, black
unemployment rose to nearly 17 percent.
Amna Nawaz will focus on the roots of these
problems in a moment, but, first, let's hear
from people who live with them.
JANAYA KHAN, Black Lives Matter: To be black
in America is to know the full preciousness
and the full precarity of life.
I have asthma, and since the lockdown has
sort of happened around the pandemic, I haven't
left my home. I'm telling you this so that
you understand how much it would take to get
me out of the house and to be on the streets,
that the risk was worth it to me.
ROODY SALVATOR, Utah: The protests have a
lot of white allies, and I love that.
Now, what I would like to see is to have those
people using their power of their purse to
help black businesses grow, because we desperately
need it, especially in the era of COVID-19.
NYGEL ANDERSON, Washington, D.C.: Slavery
built every piece of this country. There is
not one sector, not one industry that this
-- slavery did not help, the banking, education,
health. Pick anything, right? We built this.
Of course we believe in this. Of course we
believe in this country.
JOHNNAH BAILEY, Nebraska: It starts with our
school system writing black people and people
of color into the curriculums, because racism
is something that is learned.
JANAYE MATTHEWS, Colorado: Racism isn't just
a racist cop shooting someone or choking them
out, that it's also how we show up in our
workplaces. It's how we assess health care
access and equality, how we assess education
and employment as well, that all of these
areas have work to do.
JANAYA KHAN: The consistent theme across oppression
is that black people are at the core of it.
If we're talking about misogyny and the gender
wage gap, it's black women who are being most
impacted. If we're talking about reproductive
justice, if you're a black woman in this country,
regardless of class, you are 243 percent more
likely to die from maternal morbidity or mortality.
KAREN MILLER, Virginia: I gave birth to my
first son at Piedmont Hospital in Atlanta.
You would express your pain or you would express
a particular issue that you're having, and
the number of times that medical professionals
would say to you, oh, let's just wait it out
and see if it gets any better, I live in my
body. I live in my experience, so I already
know that it's going to be minimized.
So, I do everything possible on my end, so,
by the time come to you, I am in desperate
need.
NYGEL ANDERSON: When this all calms down,
what happens? What is the new normal, right?
Right now, yes, this is good, right? This
is positive. But what happens when there's
no signs and there's no cameras, there's no
microphones? What are we doing every day,
each and every day?
AMNA NAWAZ: For more now on how those inequalities
are perpetuated, even protected, by American
systems and institutions, I'm joined by Dr.
Lauren Powell, executive director of health
care at Time's Up, which fights harassment
and discrimination. She was previously the
director of health equity for the Virginia
Health Department.
William Darity is a professor of public policy
at Duke University and the co-author of the
book "From Here to Equality: Reparations for
Black Americans in the Twenty-First Century."
And Nikole Hannah-Jones, she is an investigative
reporter for "The New York Times Magazine,"
and she led their Pulitzer Prize-winning 1619
Project, examining the legacy of slavery in
this country and centering the stories of
black Americans.
Welcome to you all, and thank you for being
here.
And, Dr. Powell, I want to start with you,
because we cannot forget this moment is unfolding
on top of a global health crisis here in America.
Black Americans are disproportionately affected.
They make up 13 percent of the population,
but more than a fifth of all COVID-related
deaths.
You have called this your nightmare scenario.
Why?
DR. LAUREN POWELL: Executive Director, Time's
Up Healthcare: Well, I think that this moment
is a confluence of several historic injustices
all at once.
I was talking with a colleague not too long
ago, and -- a colleague in emergency management,
and I really expressed that my biggest fear
was that something as terrible as the murder
of George Floyd would happen in the middle
of this pandemic, and that people would feel
the need and the willing, the rightful need
to protest in this moment.
And the intersections of what COVID-19 is
already doing to the black community, on top
of the potential for spread in protests, certainly
led to what I called my worst nightmare, and
what is actually coming to pass right now.
AMNA NAWAZ: Professor Darity, I want to ask
you about the economic crisis we also cannot
ignore, which is yet again disproportionately
affecting black Americans. Black workers have
been disproportionately affected. Their businesses,
many of them are essential workers continuing
to work on the front lines.
It cannot get any clearer that the fact that
the gaps in wealth and wages predate the pandemic,
though, in this one graphic. And I just want
to share this. It was published this week
in The Washington Post.
It shows median household wealth over the
last 70 years in America. That top line, which
is continuing to go up, is white household
wealth. The bottom line is black household
wealth, basically stagnant over 70 years.
People will look at that and wonder, how is
that possible? What do you say to them?
WILLIAM DARITY, Duke University: I think it's
a consequence of the intergenerational effects
of the cumulative impact of America's racial
history.
The starting point for the gap that you have
described in the image that you presented
is the failure to provide the formerly enslaved
with the 40-acre land grants that they were
promised at the end of the Civil War.
That failure was accompanied by the provision
of 160-acre land grants in the Western part
of the United States to numerous white families.
So, on the one hand, the formerly enslaved
got nothing, which precluded their opportunity
to pass resources down to subsequent generations,
while many white Americans received substantial
land grants.
And then American national policies surrounding
housing acquisition in the 20th century, particularly
redlining, as well as the presence of predatory
lending for homeownership, all of these factors
cumulate over time to create the kind of racial
wealth disparities that we're observing now.
AMNA NAWAZ: And, Nikole, to bring us back
to this moment now, we're having a question,
when we look at the wealth of individuals
and households, but also how we as a country
spend our resources.
It's led to this question and the message
of defunding the police. I'm curious what
you make of that conversation right now.
NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES, "The New York Times Magazine":
Well, what we know is, in a capitalist country,
what we value is shown by what we put our
resources towards.
We have seemed to have an unending amount
of resources towards police, towards militarizing
the police, towards building jails, towards
incarceration, even as we have seen public
school spending go flat, even as we have seen
decline in spending on public goods and services,
even as we have tried to cut programs, social
safety net programs, such as food stamps.
So, what the pandemic has shown us is that,
if we decide that we want to meet basic needs
of our citizens, we, in fact, can do that.
We just are choosing not to. We suddenly have
found that we can provide all of our students
with Internet-ready devices if we want to,
that we can ask cable companies to give free
Internet to our students, that we can provide
three meals a day for our families in our
schools.
Many of these things that we said we couldn't
do, we have done. How do we then go back to
not doing those things once this pandemic
is over?
AMNA NAWAZ: You mentioned the education component,
which doesn't get enough attention. And you
have done so much extraordinary reporting
unpacking the ongoing segregation of American
schools.
We talk a lot about official accountability
in this time, but I want to ask you about
individual accountability. Can you explain
a little bit about how the individual decisions
that we make as Americans, about where we
live and where we send our kids to school,
how that contributes to that segregation?
NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES: Yes, of course.
So, we know that inequality is both structural
and held up by individual choices that everyday
Americans make. We have school districts that
are very segregated, but they're segregated
because the most powerful parents in a school
district, which are affluent white parents,
want it that way.
And so, on the one hand, we have large numbers
of Americans, the majority of Americans, who
say they believe in school equality and they
believe in integration. But then they make
individual choices that benefit their own
children, that ensure that their own children
will get access to the best public schools.
They fight against efforts to take off things
that screen children out, like exams to get
into schools, portfolio reviews to get into
schools. And so, even though we see these
large kind of systemic inequalities, parents
are holding those inequalities up with their
individual choices and also fighting the systemic
changes as well.
AMNA NAWAZ: Professor Darity, let me follow
up with you on that.
This idea of individual accountability, when
it comes to the economy, when it comes to
systems that have been built over 400 years,
how do individuals start to make decisions
to dismantle them and to make sure that those
racist ideas are not perpetuated?
WILLIAM DARITY: So, I think individuals have
to get into the process of supporting social
policies that could make the structural changes
in American life that could alter the kinds
of inequalities that we're talking about.
It's also a question of what your political
actions are in terms of supporting the kinds
of social policies that we need to alter the
circumstances.
And, in particular, with respect to the racial
wealth gap, in the work that I have done with
Kirsten Mullen in the book that you mentioned,
"From Here to Equality," we have argued that
a program of reparations would be required
to eliminate that huge racial wealth chasm,
and that a program of reparations on the order
of the provision of $10 trillion to $12 trillion
in resources to native black Americans.
These resources would be required because
we are in a present situation in which black
Americans constitute about 13 percent of the
nation's population, but only have 2.6 percent
of the nation's wealth.
Black heads of households with a college degree
have two-thirds of the net worth of white
heads of households who never finished high
school. And this is clear evidence of the
effects of the long-term cumulative effects
of America's racial history that I mentioned
earlier.
AMNA NAWAZ: Dr. Powell, there is this cumulative
effect, clearly.
We're having this conversation right now largely
because of policing and because of the life-and-death
nature of policing for black Americans. The
decision just to go out and protest right
now is a life-or-death decision.
When you look at all of the protests that
are growing, are now unfolding in every single
state, what's your biggest concern? How do
you tell someone whether or not they should
participate in this moment?
DR. LAUREN POWELL: I do think we have to recognize
there are some risks in going out to protest
right now, right? We are still in a public
health emergency. We are still in a pandemic.
And so, to that extent, protesters should
absolutely be protecting themselves. This
entire situation has unfolded around police
and the excessive use of force. That means
we should really be rethinking, should you
be using pepper spray? Likely not in a pandemic
where the virus is spread through person-to-person
transmission, through droplets.
Pepper spray causes people to cough. Tear
gas causes people to cry and causes people
to want to remove their masks. And so these
are some of the things that our own government
and our own lawmakers should be considering
even in this moment.
And I will say, I think it's a privilege to
be able to think about separating the two
of these moments together.
The underlying golden thread, if you will,
between COVID-19 and the response we're seeing
following the murder of George Floyd, the
golden thread that binds the two together
is racism.
And so there will never be a convenient moment,
there will never be a convenient time to begin
the work of dismantling racism. And so, to
that point, you know, I say I think that people
have to weigh the odds on their own, they
have to weigh the risks on their own, and
do recognize that we are still in an emergency.
And so there are still risks to going out.
But I do think that it's possible to do it
safely.
AMNA NAWAZ: I thank all three of you very,
very much for your time and for being with
us.
That's Dr. Lauren Powell, Nikole Hannah-Jones,
and Professor William Darity.
Thank you.
WILLIAM DARITY: Thank you.
NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES: Thank you.
JUDY WOODRUFF: The past two weeks have been
a wakeup call to many, but, for black Americans,
racism, bias and offensive behavior are blended
into their lives, in their workplaces, in
their communities.
And, as many of them told us, it weighs on
both them and their children.
MICHAEL FARROW, New York: When I was 9 years
old, my father took away my water gun. He
said, "You can't have a water gun because
the police won't know that you're a little
boy."
HENRY HUNTER, Washington, D.C.: I have spent
the last week paying close attention to the
developments out of Minneapolis and globally,
taken my 1-year-old son to the White house
multiple times, so that he could, you know,
feel it, if not understand it.
A lot of children get to play offense in life.
You get to take risks. You get to overcome
failure. You get to learn lessons the hard
way. And I think black kids have to play defense
first.
KENT WASHINGTON, Colorado: This fear is real
for us. It's not an illusion. We have been
dealing with this all of our lives.
ALANDRUS DAVID, Texas: You have to tone yourself
down as a black person, just so white people
can't be afraid of you.
TONYA ALSTON, California: I don't want to
tense up every time I see a police car. And,
automatically, my hands go to the top of my
steering wheel.
I want us to thrive, not just try to survive
each day, try to survive each encounter.
VANESSA YOUNG, Minnesota: I come from a multiracial
family.
I have always felt like, and my parents, I
mean, in direct and indirect ways, told me
all throughout my childhood and even in my
adult years that I have to work twice as hard
to prove myself, and it's not fair, that I
can't make mistake like other people make
mistakes, because I will be judged differently.
I will experience consequences differently.
JENNIFER KINGSBY, Georgia: People of color
are always being told we have to be the ones
to forgive.
I want to know why. Why do I have to forgive
you, when you continue to hurt me? Why do
I have to forgive you, when you continue to
hurt those I love? Why do I have to forgive
you, when you continue to make the kids I
work with feel less than? I shouldn't have
to forgive you for that.
JUDY WOODRUFF: For African-American families,
the challenges, the pain, and the outright
exhaustion connected with this kind of behavior
present their own distinct burdens.
Special correspondent Charlayne Hunter-Gault
talks with a father and his grown son about
their work over decades to create change.
CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: Cleveland Sellers,
AKA, Cleve, is one of the iconic legends of
the 1960s civil rights movement. His son,
Bakari Sellers, is a former South Carolina
legislator whose recent book is called "My
Vanishing Country."
Thank you so much for joining me. It's great
to see you after all these years.
Let me start with you, Cleve.
Based on your years of experience, this George
Floyd killing is nothing new, right?
CLEVELAND SELLERS, Civil Rights Pioneer: Absolutely.
The murder of Emmett Till was the thing that
kind of the -- I developed my social consciousness
around.
CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: And, of course, Emmett
Till was lynched, ostensibly for whistling
at a white woman.
And so how did all of what you were experiencing
during the civil rights movement, right on
up through the time you yourself got shot
in Orangeburg, while young people were demonstrating
and four men were killed, how did that affect
your advice to your son Bakari growing up?
CLEVELAND SELLERS: African-American men had
to tell our sons about the survival skills.
And we all had to tell them the protocol that
they should follow in order for them not to
get arrested for just being indignant about
the name-calling by police officers and antagonisms
by police officers, so that they can get home,
and we could then litigate or protest the
actions of that particular officer.
So, it became important for me to do that
with all three of my children, one who was
a daughter. And we talked to her about driving
at night, and the blue light on, and having
to pull over in an area that had lights and
had some people around, so that you wouldn't
be isolated, and then end up like Sandra Bland.
CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: So, Bakari, how did
your father's advice impact you?
BAKARI SELLERS, Author, "My Vanishing Country:
A Memoir": Well, it wasn't as much the advice
as it was the example that my father set.
And I'm a product of the proverb it takes
a village to raise a child. You know, in my
book "My Vanishing Country," I talk about
all of these people who were part of my proverbial
village. And my father always took me to the
memorials. He always took me to the services.
He let me have these -- sit at the adult tables
and have these conversations with many of
these heroes.
And I write -- and because it's so true -- that
heroes walk among us. And so many of the lessons
that were passed down to me, they were built
on the premise that our history is more than
just Martin, Malcolm and Rosa, but, instead,
we have to uphold the names like Ella Baker,
like Fannie Lou Hamer, like Modjeska Simkins,
and Septima Clark.
And those lessons are the ones that ring true,
especially today.
CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: And you pass those
along to your children as well?
BAKARI SELLERS: I have a 15-year-old daughter
who just got her permit, and now she will
be driving.
And many of those conversations that black
parents have to have with black children are
conversations that white people don't have
to have with their kids, we're now having
today.
I talk to my daughter about the same things
my father just said. If a police officer is
behind you, make sure you call 911 and go
to a well-lit area, because I don't want her
to be Sandra Bland. I don't want her to be
mistaken for anything, so she has to watch
her hands.
I mean, at the end of the day, one of the
things we need to realize is that, in this
country, many black folk don't get the benefit
of their humanity. And I'm petrified that,
one day, there may be an officer who does
not see my daughter as being anything -- as
being anything but human.
You know, in the George Floyd case, you can't
tell me that those officers saw George as
being a human being. They stood on his neck
for eight minutes.
And that's the fear that I have of raising
a black child, that her life will be cut short
simply because of a fear, a paranoia, a lack
of humanity, or a lack of dignity, because
she's a black girl in this country.
CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: Let me ask both of
you.
Given the reaction, widespread reaction to
the George Floyd case, are you optimistic
that things are finally going to change? I
mean, I just heard you give a long list of
things that have been going on with black
children all these years.
CLEVELAND SELLERS: I think that, you know,
for the Black Lives Matter, it's time to begin
to bring people together and to organize folk
and begin to put something in place that has
some kind of texture to it and some kind of
framework to it.
CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: And, Bakari, how optimistic
are you that this new wave of protests are
going to change things in a very significant
way, perhaps more than in the past?
BAKARI SELLERS: Well, I don't know if I can
say that. But the biggest problem is that
this has become a cycle that is perpetuated
in this country.
And let me also just push back slightly on
the framing of the question, because I don't
want anybody to believe that this is about
George Floyd alone. This isn't. This is about
George Floyd. This is about Breonna Taylor.
This is about Ahmaud Arbery. This is about
David McAtee. And this is about systemic injustice
and institutionalized racism that's been perpetuated
in this country for years upon years, upon
decades, upon centuries.
And to channel my father and Fannie Lou Hamer,
people are sick and tired of being sick and
tired. And so now we're at the point now where
I'm -- my job is to break that perpetual cycle.
And I'm proud that people like Taylor Swift
and Carson Wentz and Trevor Lawrence are coming
out.
CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: So, you sound a little
bit optimistic that this massive protest movement
from around the world, not just in this country,
but around the world now.
That's a big change from the past, isn't it?
BAKARI SELLERS: I don't know if it's a big
change.
Let me just say that my father's generation
captivated the world before. Like, I don't
really give people credit for showing up.
I want to see the follow-through. And I hope
that people are there, and I have faith that
people will be there, but this will be new
-- this will have to be a new door that is
opened.
And, you know, I have three children, and
I'm going to remain on this journey for truth
and justice and peace, but I don't want to
pass them down the same America that I have
now.
CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: Just very quickly
to both of you, as a final question, how much
of the follow-through is going to depend on
voting?
CLEVELAND SELLERS: Well, I think a lot of
it is going to depend on voting, but there
are going to be structural changes that are
going to have to occur.
And I think it was Roy Wilkins said, how many
coffins must we walk behind before we can
find justice and equality and peace and love?
CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: So, I think I hear
both of you saying what you used to say, we
all used to say back in the day of the civil
rights movement. We have got to keep on keeping
on.
Is that right, Bakari?
BAKARI SELLERS: Amen.
CLEVELAND SELLERS: Keep on...
BAKARI SELLERS: Keep on keeping on.
CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: Thank you.
BAKARI SELLERS: No justice, no peace.
CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: Thank you.
JUDY WOODRUFF: And thank you, Charlayne.
As we have heard throughout the program, there's
a responsibility to move to meaningful and
lasting change that all of us, especially
white Americans, have to address.
Many people have been asking for resources
and ideas. On our Web site, you can find a
list of books, articles, podcasts, and videos
aimed at helping all of us challenge our own
biases and educating ourselves about institutional
racism and the barriers that African-Americans
still face every day.
You can find all that at PBS.org/NewsHour.
And that concludes our special, "Race Matters:
America in Crisis."
We want to thank all those who shared their
voices tonight. And we want to thank you for
taking the time to listen along with us.
Our country has been rocked in the aftermath
of one event in one city, but to heal and
move forward as a nation, it will take many
difficult conversations in every city and
town, with as many of us engaged as possible.
At the start of the pandemic, we came together
as a country, and by staying at home, that
unity helped save lives. Now we have the chance
to come together again to change lives and
save them too.
I'm Judy Woodruff.
For all of us at the "PBS NewsHour," thank
you, please stay safe, and we'll see you soon.
