G'day, A.J. Mahari here and i'm just gonna do a little sound check
well maybe not anyway have a rather
ambitious topic today
where i hope to give a fair amount of
information that will be helpful to
people
yeah i think that's all good to go there
okay so
yeah i've been looking into this well
looking into it more but also
uh the more i work with clients and the
more i see patterns and etc
in deeper ways uh
yeah so talk a little bit maybe about
borderline's projected blame and you
know what people at bpd do
but on this stream i'm really gonna
challenge people to think about your
codependent self
and what's really going on with that why
are you really blocked from no contact
why do you keep feeling sorry for that
person etc etc because
it's all not in one's best interest it
bet it still stresses people out
and it affects their mental health so
codependency
and the false cell codependency
and the reality of maybe not
the kind of broken attachment of people
of bpd
but most people with codependency do not
get secure attachment in
childhood as well so i'm going to start
off by talking a little bit about
what is this stuff about the codependent
ball cell
well you know it codependency starts in
childhood
right so children create a false self
because they do not
have enough emotional and social support
to become
emotionally and psychologically separate
from their parents
this adapted self this isn't the same as
bpd by the way but like there's overlap
of close similarity but it's not the
same
this adapted self can be either defeated
sorry can be either deflated
and codependent or it could be
inflated and counter dependent so you
talk a little bit about maybe not much
about
counter dependency today as well so the
codependent deflated false self
is designed to please a parent or the
parents
and maintain their what is it it's
conditional love it's not unconditional
it's not what people require
to be healthier the counter-dependent
inflated is designed to protect children
from feeling their unmet dependency
needs
by maintaining distance between
themselves and the and the parent or
parents and so the true self
which operates from a sense of integrity
personal authenticity
and connection to wholeness gets
sacrificed
in both adaptive processes and this
i think speaks directly to why people
with codependency
abandon and re-abandon and abandon
themselves
and self-sacrifice so the deflated
codependent false self is a protective
defense that helps children sustain
their need for comforting
intimacy and its
attempts at attunement with mother
and or this is like in really young and
you know infancy and toddlerhood too
and to prolong the feelings of safety
associated with the codependent stage of
development
this codependent behavior also keeps
people feeling weak and vulnerable
with strong needs to attach to the
others
who seem stronger and more capable and
then just a little bit about the
counter-dependent false self
this inflated counter-dependent false
self helps children block feelings of
shame
about being loved conditionally
because it's not good enough it's not
enough it's not healthy enough as is
unconditional love or something a little
bit better than conditional love
and so it's also protection and blocks
feelings from
falling into states of developmental
shock and trauma
related to experiences involving
abandonment
or anything that's abusive and this
isn't the exact same for everybody as
codependency
but a lot of people with codependency
have had a cluster b
parent those who use this defense of
counter dependency typically act strong
and capable
even though they don't feel that way
inside so it's a child's
adaptation to their parents needs
for them to adapt to lack of emotional
availability
and it also forces them to abandon their
inner urge
to develop a separate true self
and then the result is in codependency
or counter dependency
that children grow into adults who grow
up recreating these same
kind of self-limiting codependent and
counter-dependent relationships
in their adult lives they continue to
monitor
and modulate the expression of their
authentic ideas feelings and behaviors
to make sure they do not threaten the
conditional love from those closest to
them
so i think that's something that you
know i haven't talked about before on
this channel anyway but
the false self component of people with
codependency
so i'm going to get to um
the shame and the guilt but you know
first i wanted to say how toxic
guilt and false you know and shame
create this
false responsibility that keeps people
in codependent dysfunction and in you
know what what are the trauma bonds with
first of all people with bpd but also
narcissists
um so this is sometimes called a toxic
or chronic guilt which is closely
related to
a false and overwhelming sense of
responsibility
often children um if you can identify
with this people children in childhood
are parentified and this is where this
stems from more often than not
or parentified at a time or parentified
in a way and not maybe entirely
but this stems from the childhood
environment
and is carried into adulthood and adult
relationships
whether they're romantic work or other
types of relationships
so false responsibility because this is
what codependents
have is this idea of all this
responsibility
for this poor helpless person with bpd
learned helplessness
you know lack of identity can't really
relate in any healthy way for a whole
bunch of other
deeper even more traumatic reasons and
then
you know you feel responsible you know
so it's like in a little picture i have
here you know a person with bpd
anger rage blame and a codependent
toxic guilt toxic shame and
between the blame and the denial
protective identification of the
borderline
while the codependent is kind of like
going well i'm sorry
like it's just it's just it doesn't make
any sense but it
it's rooted in childhood because why
should you feel sorry for what somebody
did to you
or blamed you for
so you know false responsibility i don't
know if i
covered this area but um refers to an
attitude when you feel responsible
for things that objectively you aren't
responsible for
and well shouldn't feel responsible for
so often it's in childhood at some point
or other people feel responsible
for the needs and emotions of their
parents or siblings or other family
members
or a parent usually the sense of
responsibility comes from being
overtly or covertly blamed and punished
like for example you're making your
mother
sad maybe a father would say to a child
or a parent might say to a child why are
you hurting me
when you're not you know or you didn't
do what i told you to do
and add some kind of blaming statement
therefore like now i have a migraine
therefore like what am i supposed to do
you never listen to me and a parent
might even say you don't
love me of course a bpd or mpd parent
could do that but
parents um and other authority figures
often blame children for things that
they themselves are fundamentally
responsible for
so there you see especially if you've
had a cluster be
parent well isn't that
the age-old reality of bpd npd
and other mental health challenges
wherein
everything is everybody else's fault so
yes you can have parents
blaming children because they still know
how to take personal responsibility
or they hold the child to an impossible
standard
and impossible expectations where the
child is punished for making mistakes
or being imperfect and blamed for
failing
meanwhile you probably weren't even
doing anything in a lot of these
scenarios it's all coming from
often a cluster be parent an emotionally
unavailable parent
a parent with some other kind of issues
since since children are powerless and
dependent
they have no choice but to accept any
treatment they receive from their
caregivers
since the children don't have a frame of
reference they also tend to normalize
their environment or even
perceive it as loving and caring etc
so this ball skill which is really toxic
guilt
um is instilled you know by
by what i've just said you know kind of
parents or environment
uh guilt shame and anxiety hurt betrayal
disappointment loneliness emptiness and
so many other feelings
this false sense of guilt can even
become a default state
that is referred to as chronic or toxic
guilt
and as a result a person tends to take
on unjust responsibility
and feels overly guilty if things around
them go wrong
they're quick to accept that everything
is their fault
even though it isn't and i just like to
add to that
the fact that a lot of people with
codependency might think no i don't do
that i don't
but it can still be in your unconscious
because it's within
the wounded inner child and this is what
i do extensive work with clients on by
the way so if i resonate with you i'm
out here to help you with all of this
stuff that
is tragic that it happens to people
so
yeah children are really quick to accept
that
everything is their fault even though of
course it isn't
and they also have a poor you have poor
boundaries if you
can develop any at all and end up
emotionally enmeshed with
parents family of origin other people
and try to manage other people's
emotions or generally feel overwhelmed
by other people's emotions
so not only can you be being blamed but
you can also have
self-blame so unlike people with strong
narcissistic tendencies and similar dark
personality traits
who never take responsibility for their
actions people who suffer from false
responsibility and toxic guilt within
codependency
are very quick to attribute what went
wrong to themselves and blame themselves
for it
so many children learn to blame
themselves for being abused and
mistreated
or for not having your needs met or
a parent's not paying attention to you
at times when that's crucial in early
childhood they're blamed for things
when children are blamed for things they
internalize it
those are those injunctions and the in
what's the word sorry um invoked
uh things that become the internal
critic
and so then children blame themselves
for things from that point on
or from whatever age or whatever
whatever happened in childhood
and then it happens so many times it
becomes like a default mode
so when people codependency grow up it's
only natural good to to continue
um this in their adult relationships
especially if they never took the time
and effort to consciously and critically
examine it
and then i just wanted to say a little
bit about codependency and repetition
compulsion because i've been talking
about that here and there without going
into it
a little more deeply but a lot of people
who suffer from toxic guilt and shame
that is what underpins really the
development of codependency
which refers specifically to
dysfunctional relationships or one
person supports or enables another
person's
unhealthy behavior which could be
you know like emotional challenges
mental health issues or addiction
acting out irresponsibility abusive
actions and all kinds of other things
this is because a self-blaming person
is used to is used to sorry being in a
dysfunctional relationship
where they had to be responsible for the
just dysfunctional person's
dysfunctional behavior
so when you grow up it all seems natural
even quote normal unquote because it's
simply
that familiar this unconscious drive to
replicate one's dysfunctional childhood
environment
is referred to as a repetition
compulsion and it usually continues
until the person becomes aware of it
and is willing and able you know to get
help and get into a healing recovery
process
to work that through this also increases
by the way
the susceptibility to manipulation
and general dysfunction so people who
suffer from chronic self-blame
constantly feel shame and guilt which is
toxic by the way
they're exceptionally susceptible to
manipulation
the manipulator can always appeal to
their false sense
of responsibility or blame them for
something or shame them to get what they
want
so a lot of people at bpd don't know
they're doing that
a lot of narcissists know they're doing
that
as one reason why you find narcissism or
dark personality traits
often you know people with codependency
involved in those type of relationships
or with people with bpd
these relationship patterns are
frequently talked about in tandem
and in a dysfunctional way these two
personality types or bpd
codependency npd and codependency
fit together and draw each other like a
sadistic and masochistic person
attracts each other's company like a
person who likes to yell
and control another person's life and
someone who's used to being yelled at
and controlled i don't want to say
attract
each other but you know there is this
compelling reason
in the unconscious that really is
part of how people get into these
relationships when you have codependency
people replicate and act out their
childhood dynamics and their adult
relationships
some become more dependent and others
might you know have bpd or
be narcissist so
as children many people are treated
unfairly and cruelly
and sometimes people don't realize how
they have been because it's not always
to the nines of what that might mean
many are routinely blamed for things
that are not they are not responsible
for
or expected to meet certain unrealistic
and unreasonable standards
when you're just a child and as a result
they learn
numerous toxic lessons so view those
toxic
lessons for many people codependency to
blame themselves for being mistreated
to have unrealistic standards for
yourself
to normalize and accept dysfunction to
unconsciously or even consciously seek
dysfunctional relationships i don't
think too many people do it consciously
but
false responsibilities to false guilt
and false guilt leads to self-blame
over time you internalize it
this makes you more susceptible to being
manipulated and taken advantage of
where you sacrifice your own well-being
and self-interest to please
and take care of and try to rescue and
enable others
and this is basically a form of not only
self abandonment and self sacrifice
it is self erasure it is like
you don't feel many people's
codependence
don't unless until you get in healing
and recovery don't
feel worthy enough to even really exist
or be seen that's deep down
in the unconscious and this doesn't have
to continue forever
and then i just wanted to quote um
beverly ingle
who said quote for too long we have been
protecting the ones
who have hurt us by minimizing our
trauma and deprivation
it's time to stop protecting them and
start to protect ourselves
we have been told and feel that we're
responsible for their emotional
well-being
we are not we are responsible only
for ourselves and so to that i would add
the first step
is always is recognizing this but
recognizing this in a deeper way which
is
what i hope what i'm the information i'm
providing today
will be providing more on i think it's i
i've kind of strayed away from just
putting it out there this way because
i really feel for people and i you know
and i've been through this myself and so
who wants to hear that maybe you're
operating out of more of a false self
than
authenticity but that's what i think a
lot of clients that i work with discover
that there it's not anything that
anybody does on purpose
so you can work on developing a more
self-loving and self-caring relationship
with yourself
and you can learn to have healthier
boundaries and you can learn not to
accept
unjust responsibility for others
and all of this by extension will help
you have healthy relationships and
social interactions with
others of course the key thing there is
to first
build a healthy relationship to yourself
and with within yourself and that's
where the inner child
healing family of origin work and
self-differentiation
is so crucial so just adding to this
then
um because you know it is it is
the underpinnings of codependency or its
alternate
counter dependency really stem from
shame a shame wound in childhood
and also um this you know false
responsibility this toxic
guilt because it's not healthy guilt
healthy
guilt is when you do something wrong and
you feel
remorse for it but toxic guilt
is like it's not yours in the first
place it's hard to resolve
and shame wow that wound there
is like especially well anytime somebody
gets a shame
but in childhood what information you're
really taking
in not always do people realize this
is not just that you're bad that you did
something bad but that you
are bad so normally
shame passes after an embarrassing
incident you know for people that
haven't had this childhood experience
but for people with codependency shame
is internalized from experiences in
childhood like i said
and it just sits there waiting be to be
activated
and persist long after any event
of its activation like an open wound
that has never healed you're ashamed of
who you are
it's all pervasive paralyzes spontaneity
and to a degree defines people who have
codependency
guess what happens to you if you're with
a bpd let alone a narcissist
they're going to consistently push those
buttons in you
that are going to to um recreate
activate this shame
inside of you this woundiness
so people's codependency whether they
know it or not
often don't believe that they matter
or are worthy of love respect success
happiness especially in relationships
maybe even in work but
you think that you're bad defective
inadequate a phony a failure or worse
and i've had so many clients you know
express all of this to me as well
chronic internalized shame makes
ordinary shame feel
more intense and last longer and and not
that when you're with somebody a bp or a
narcissist you're getting
normal shame you're still being really
toxically shamed
and so you can feel more you know you
feel it more and it lasts longer and it
creates
shame anxiety largely about being
acceptable to yourself
and to other people extreme prolonged
shame can lead to hopelessness
and despair or cause a sort of psychic
numbing a feeling of like being
really not alive inside or feeling like
a zombie and that
that is the toxic um
codependency well well you know i'm
saying people are toxic
but it's the toxic freeze response
where in people are just like frozen in
this and maybe not aware of it maybe not
feeling it
internalized um shame causes such low
self-esteem
and most codependent symptoms such as
pleasing
addiction caretaking control enabling
depression lack of assertiveness
intimacy issues
and perfectionism core feelings that
stem from low self-esteem and
internalized shame
are almost endless really but
unworthiness
and fear of abandonment where
self-confidence would otherwise be
might feel unlovable and have rejection
sensitivity where otherwise self-trust
would be
have anxiety and a fear of making
mistakes
where self-acceptance needs to be
feel an important and fear criticism
where self-responsibility needs to be
feel um undeserving
and you know often fear being a failure
and or success you know so there's no
self-efficacy or self-agency there
and a lot of people's codependency
whether you know it or not
you know everybody's not the same place
but feel self-loathing
and fear intimacy to varying degrees
where self-respect should be
and then you can shame leads you to feel
judgmental
and fear your own power while self-worth
and um esteem should be in self-value
internalized shame creates a chronic
sense of inferiority
you may envy and compare yourself
negatively to people whom you admire
you may believe you're never enough that
you're not doing enough
attractive enough smart enough or good
enough because shame is painful
especially toxic shame you may be
unconscious of your shame
and think you have a good sense of
self-esteem
and some people's codependency may boast
or feel
self-important not like a narcissist but
and superior to those that maybe
somebody
is in a teaching capacity or supervising
people
people of a different class or culture
or anyone that
you judge by devaluing others you boost
your
your yourself higher to deny and hide
your shame from yourself
most codependents fluctuate between
feeling inferior
and superior and again it's not the same
for
absolutely everybody but toxic guilt
and toxic shame are not the same as
healthy guilt
or healthy shame and so that is
um what is the underpinnings
of this loss of authenticity
loss of authentic self that
creates so much difficulty and of course
only gets multiplied
in the repetition compulsion of the
unhealthy relational codependent pattern
over dating
in not exactly the same way but a
similar way is what people with bpd are
doing
but but people with codependency are
going to err on the side of
responsibility taking and of course
people with bp
you know they don't know what that is so
anyway i think that it was you know i
know the first thing it
well i've known about this for quite a
while but i just never wanted to say i
was always i was always like it was
codependent of me to go
well should i just put it out there but
yeah this idea that you know
in codependency another part of the
healing process
is really about finding your authentic
self
so it's not just you know working toward
boundaries
and assertion skills and you know
many other things that need to be healed
and especially coming out of these
relationships
but it's very much about
not only loss of self in a relationship
recently or maybe a little while ago or
maybe it's happening to you right now
but that you have this this is a
carryover and a trigger to the
original partial not
whole loss of self in childhood
for many people with codependency hey
there everybody
um and he said do they want to run
around like they are 18 again
like a kid and come back to safety net a
safety net
thinking you will always take them back
like you're a mommy or daddy
well i mean you're asking a question
about people with bpd and i think
you know they have those issues going on
for sure um
i don't know that they think people with
codependency are doormats but
what i've been just talking about is
there's a tremendous woundiness to
codependency
that i don't think a lot of people
realize and
that it's really important for people
with codependency
to stop focusing on the people with bpd
and what their issues are
because you're going to be in a world of
hurt until you
heal your own i'm not saying that just
to you keith i'm just saying in general
um alex hello aj loving your live videos
just popped up to say quick hello
can't wait to watch this tomorrow it's
getting late here in serbia oh yes well
hey
nice to see you and you said uh sending
um
a hug uh uh sending a bug i don't know
and a virtual hug
um to me and my other viewers well thank
you
oh alpha dog thank you so much for that
generous donation um they're
kind of you um wheels hi aj how are you
doing fine thank you how are you doing
thanks for explaining repetition
compulsions and codependency
um you said some of this sounds too
familiar
yeah how are you doing billy goat nice
to see you because like i'm on earlier
aren't i so it's like
not like past midnight your time right
now
so i think i just wonder you know if
people have any
thoughts feelings or questions everybody
isn't
in the same place right but codependency
and the loss of authentic self
and then that gets repeated when you're
in a relationship with somebody with bp
or
npd or a psychopath or you know
we talk mostly about cluster b but it
could happen i suppose in other
relationship types too
so really interesting that you know
it's like all things related
to trauma and varying degrees of trauma
the false self-protection is in there
too
it doesn't mean that i think that people
with codependency are all like
fake or acting no i don't believe that
at all
but there is this false cell that rises
up to the constant sort of like
pushing on people with codependencies
triggers
back to things that maybe they've
forgotten from their childhood because
depending how
traumatic it was or was it more like
uh you know a not minor but a less
traumatic
experience so um it is difficult to say
but i think a lot of people
with codependency um don't really
realize this part
of the false cell the toxic shame and
the toxic guilt
and what a block it is
for many people not only in getting into
a healing recovery journey
but when you left that bpdx or they
ghosted you or whatever the case
and like but you just can't get to that
full no
contact and by the way no contact is
many things and needed for many reasons
but when you first say that first no and
you're looking to
heal and focus on yourself and heal
yourself
that that person know is
as difficult as it is for all the
reasons and i've spoken about some
than before and maybe will again that
it's really important to know that you
need to build momentum
you know even even just changing your
focus
from the person with bp or the x or
whomever or maybe it's still
maybe it's still a narcissistic or
borderline parent
whether they're still alive or whether
they've passed away
because when they pass away if people
don't get their work and healing
and recovery work done they're still
going to be controlled by the
internal critic that invoke narrative
of a parent that was in some way
injurious to you
shamed you and and
who who you couldn't get any
unconditional love from
or the proper attunement with
um
yeah hey there nancy so anyway um
you know i i guess well yeah i guess i
should come prepared to talk on forever
until i'm done
but you know if anybody has any
questions you know that that would be
cool
or you know kind of like any of your own
experience to share
but i wonder how many people who are
trying to get over relationships with a
cluster b
realize that it's not just that that you
have to heal from
and i wonder how many people with
codependency have realized that there is
this false self
along with the toxic guilt and toxic
shame
you know which which is like what i said
earlier about
how people in childhood and it doesn't
have to be like the worst abuse in the
world but for some kids it is too
and then it's a more resilient
temperament i think is the difference
between people
in some cases with say a narcissistic
parent especially if you have a
narcissistic mother
and then you you develop codependency
as opposed to bpd well then
then the difference between those two
camps i see it's largely
sensitive temperament in in the case of
bpd
and more resilient temperament in the
case of people with
with uh codependency or sometimes it's
one parent
that there are issues with can often be
mother sometimes it's father
but sometimes the other parent excuse me
is a counterbalance or
helpful to you know some kind
of a better experience and a healthier
experience
and um sarah said do you think helps
that the person with bpd gets away from
the controlling
parent um
they never get away from the controlling
parent much like codependents won't
either until unless
each does their own work so it
they don't want to get away they're
enmeshed
um so yeah it can be highly conflictual
it can be like world war whatever but
um they rarely get away unless and until
they get treatment and therapy and etc
wheels um
well yeah that's that's interesting that
you came to that awareness because that
sounds like some important important
insight that you know
there's um with your father there's a
cycle of abuse
even separate from that with uh
your mother ability go perhaps saying no
to abusive partners is perceived as
saying
no to yourself so to counter in effect
you say yes to them
and mesh dynamic well that's interesting
because
um at least in the beginning right like
a lot of people have healed in things
but in the beginning uh you know like
when you grow up and you're adult and
you get into relationship and whether
that first relationship is with a
cluster b
or not i think um that people with
codependency often don't really know how
to say no
uh matt that's an issue too hi there
mark
um yeah i'm doing fine how are you
uh nancy i've got a crazy experience
with a guy with quiet bpd and cptsd
recently
it's a long story i'll just type in um
chunks
um i've been binge watching your bpd
videos this weekend because of it aj
i'm sorry to hear that happen nancy and
um yeah and i think whenever
people encounter um how can i put this
but
when you encounter re-experiencing
things like that again
it's like people need to look at what
because people have done a lot of
healing right and i mean nobody's
perfect
but people can do really well with
recovery from codependency
and then when you get around another
quote toxic unquote person
or cluster b it can kind of slide back a
little bit you know and that's all it
kind of takes to go through
not maybe to the same degree as one has
in the past but another one of those
experiences
that is certainly not healthy for
anybody
but i think that you know what a lot of
the information i put out in the
beginning here
is really also for people to think about
beyond everything else that that i'm
often talking about in this channel i'm
sure lots of other people
on youtube is really where
some of the blocks come from the deeper
and the more difficult blocks to get
through
to getting and going and staying no
contact
something that i don't know in the last
few years
and working with clients is uh and
comments to the channel
i've been made more aware of that you
know some people can get there
in a more sort of like not immediate but
quicker way and some people just
you know what's going on for the people
that keep saying but i feel sorry for
them but i
keep thinking about them and there's so
many reasons for why you're thinking
about them but
add to that how much they represent
for many people's codependency a parent
in their childhood
and all that woundedness
and sarah said you can only slide back
in your recovery if you
start engaging in hoovers and want to
contact
yes um but to get to where people really
need to go to turn the corner and move
forward
there has to be no contact
firmly in place and not compromised
because what's the number one thing
people say about why they can't do that
yet or they haven't done it yet or
they're not ready to do it yet
is well i feel bad for them well i feel
sorry for them
well that's still an extension of
something unhealed
inside people's codependency that isn't
just about
an acts of bpd or or an architect
it goes back to childhood still
so it's um and you know like
people with codependency uh to varying
degrees and everybody's in their own
different places with this
of course will continue to stay in
some modicum of the pattern that
is deep within the unconscious of
the person with codependency as well
what what part of that
pattern what part of that trauma bond
is because people have codependency they
stay
and they'll keep staying in that to
externalize
from having to face some of the deeper
pain
that healing from codependency really
requires people to work through and
you know it's it's like it's extremely
difficult work
and i think codependency is something
that
the word can be thrown around so
haphazardly
and yet it is very a very
very painful relational style and
pattern to have in one's life
and nancy said i have a narc and
psychopathic you have american
psychopathic x's and i had a bpd
friend so i thought i knew how to avoid
cluster b's and psychopaths
i've been clustered be free for three
years
and then he said so i wonder why i fell
for the bpd
love bombing it was the most intense
top-notch love bombing i've ever
experienced
i feel stupid i should have known better
well try not to judge yourself
and um people with bpd aren't love
bombing but
people continue to say that so i'm sure
it felt like that
but that mirroring you know along with
that idealization
and um i forget the other third part of
that i always do
well their codependency as well they're
they're people pleasing
but yeah i mean and maybe you know
it's hard to say but you see when
like you said you were cluster b for
three years which is a great
accomplishment
and then somebody comes along and for
some reason you just don't
see the red flags and they're all
different right some of them don't
really wave the red flags at first and
then the next thing you know
it's like again it might have felt too
good to be true
but and i'm not saying hey that makes
you
you're all the way back to step number
one with codependency but
it's it's it's still it's like even when
we do our best to heal it
it's like we we can do really well but
we can still be a little bit
susceptible to when a toxic
person is doing their dance so to speak
and and it sounds like that's what
happened to you and i wouldn't um
be judging yourself about it nancy it's
like nobody's perfect and
he said i'm also in a happy healthy
relationship
i've also done a lot of inner work i
worked on myself before reconnecting
with my current partner
i don't know why i fell for this bpd
dude
yeah well that's interesting and
obviously
something you'd probably like to figure
out
and you said yes to mirroring and
idealization big time
yeah and if only more people could know
but it's hard right
that even in idealization people with
bpd
aren't idealizing the person
that they're you know wanting to enmesh
with and get identity through
as much as they're idealizing
from the get-go you know someone else's
object other parent representation of
mother father or parent never had or
because you know it's usually what was
never had not that there was a great
parent
that they are um then you know but
even in idealization you're not being as
seen as it feels like you are
and that's just a real bummer of it all
you know
one the only way i could think to put it
right now
but uh interestingly enough i just
wonder if people
realize you know that
toxic shame and toxic guilt
even when you've done a lot of work and
done really well
can still be in part
you know not fully healed
and um nancy said he sex bombed me big
time
i felt sorry for this guy because of the
extreme trauma he went through
ah bingo there is one button he pushed
for sure
he was abused by narcissists and
psychopaths so we had that
that common bond well nancy yes and i
i don't um i have compassion when i say
this to you but
that was a red flag right and a red flag
that anybody could miss
um that you had that common bond of both
having been abused by narcissists and
psychopaths
well you know hey it could have meant
that you were going to meet
a person with codependency but you know
it turned out that no they had bpd
so really sorry to hear that you went
through that but again this speaks to
the reality that there's no perfection
in all of this right
we can heal and we can do our best
and we can get assertive and we can
really change the dynamics of
codependency from
our lives you know and heal from that
but nothing is
perfect in that regard and i think
that's been my experience in my life
like never mind the codependent issues
i've had on a channel which i'm trying
to like you know
definitely lose um but the thing is
it i know myself that i still tend to
have this reaction
of a freeze upon response
if somebody pops up in my life not
necessarily online or anything and
like when i say pops up in my life not
somebody in my life but you know like if
you encounter somebody you don't really
know
or you know it's a friend of a friend or
it's just somebody who you hire to do a
job for you or something
and there and the next thing you know
they're being really toxic and stuff
well one thing i'm aware of that's
happened to me not so much recently but
it's happened to me a couple years ago
i immediately started to go
back into a fawn or freeze response
and i usually catch myself and then i'm
not happy about it but then i still
it's like it's like we heal so much
but toxic people will still push on the
buttons and the buttons are
pretty healed right like you did a lot
of work nancy but like
and i'm not comparing what i'm talking
about what you said because
when it involves intimacy and physical
intimacy that's
gonna be even harder to you know not uh
back up in the middle of and sort of
like it's different
but i just think it's important people
with codependency realize first
before mostly the healing journey and
then when people get far down that road
in that healing journey
um toxic people can still
uh well i don't want to say drag it out
of us but we can still encounter
something there and
i think that's what melody beatty wrote
about in her book codependent no more
which i haven't read for like 20 years
or something
but she had a chapter on sort of what
she called a bit of a relapse or
something
um or i don't know if that's the word
she used and that
she implicitly said it's when we get
back around the same types of toxic
people
but we don't always know that's
happening um
well yeah wheels you're dealing with um
i'm so sorry to hear that you're feeling
horribly guilty because that's the
codependency that's
yeah that's what you've been um to no
fault of your own taken on since the
very beginning of your life no doubt and
um i i
yeah all i can i can say about that
really is i hope you can keep working
through you know that codependent aspect
of feeling bad for your father because
he's making his own choices
and you're in that false responsibility
zone
you're not responsible for your father's
choices
and um so hopefully you can start to
feel what you're feeling about that
without that horrible guilt because
again it's toxic guilt it kind of goes
back to
really it's just akin to programming
that happens in childhood
and when we're little kids we don't have
any defense against it number one
and number two we don't know there's
anything wrong with it
uh chimney girl i find myself to be
easily manipulated
i never want to be the one to hurt
others but feeling toxic guilt for
cutting my bpdx out of my life he
doesn't understand how i just
how i can just end everything well
seeing and yeah that's interesting
because
i would say to you with compassion and
respect why does it matter that he
doesn't understand
see there's all these little wiggly
hooks in there right it's like
and they're difficult to navigate and if
you still find yourself being easily
manipulated
then um you know i wonder if you look
back in your childhood
you know where where do you think that
comes from why do you think that is
you don't have to answer me i'm just
saying those are questions for you to
think about
um and that toxic guilt that you're
feeling yeah people have to realize it's
it's so not it goes back to something
you felt in childhood
it's like way huger than these adult
relationships
and you know if he doesn't understand
how you can just
end everything well
again don't get in the false
responsibility narrative it's not your
responsibility what he understands or
doesn't understand
it's just your responsibility to take
care of you
and nancy he idealized and valued and
discarded me in in
just within a couple of hours last
friday
because i wouldn't leave my current
partner for him he'd been begging me to
marry him
yeah those are all red flags aren't they
like everything in a hurry and
everything right
away and kind of like all his way
without regard to anything that
you felt or you know that could be
conflictual for you or that you didn't
feel or that you weren't gonna do
like boundaries right he had no respect
for anything that was a boundary of
yours
and chimney girl i've gotten my power
back he still finds ways to contact me
but each time i hear from him i go
backwards a few steps
he really gets in my head well and is
there a way
to keep eliminating the new ways that he
finds to contact you because
that's the importance of no and i know
sometimes they're
almost impossible but that's the
importance of no contact because
it's not only about healing and moving
forward but
it's it's momentum too you know
momentum in healing and starting to feel
better about oneself
etc and then you hear from them and it
does
you know throw people back like in the
beginning control them all the way back
after a certain amount of healing it
like you said you know
put you backwards a few steps so however
he's still
contacting you you need to find a way to
end that
and the number one way to end that is to
simply report
to the police and say that you know this
person is
it's unwanted contact and and
document it and you know anybody that
can't
quit no matter how hard you make it for
them to contact you
or if they show up like when you're on
the street or if they show up to where
you live
that's when it's time to get the police
involved and that's somebody who
you know is is really really out of
control beyond
the average out of control of people
with bpd
because everybody with bp will do that
but
um so i'm sure that
you know it's not like maybe you haven't
tried to be
full no contact and and then you said he
still keeps finding these ways to
contact you well
you have to find a way to dry up those
avenues of contact
whatever they might be because
it's not a good sign what he's doing and
you certainly don't need it
and sometimes people really do have to
um
get the police involved etc get
restraining orders and that type of
thing because
it it they won't stop if
uh you know for any other reason they
just don't know how to stop
and sarah said when the person with bpd
gets married
is that usually in the idealization and
honeymoon phase
well yeah when they get married because
oh my god that's
that's got to bring on fear of
engulfment for sure
um but but yeah it's there's still any
idealization phase
and then if if that stays like that
uh for a little while or varying periods
of time depending on the person with bpd
then it can be a honeymoon phase but
i've had many clients tell me too that
there was really no honeymoon phase as
soon as they got married or
as soon as they moved in or whatever the
case may be
it just all went kind of hell in a
handbasket right then
even though they didn't know what was
happening
and nancy i didn't get my work done at
all because because of this guy
it was beyond crazy fortunately my
partner forgave me for what happened
well yeah and and just know nancy like i
mean this with all due respect right
but um if you weren't getting your work
done because of the guy
it was also because of the choice that
you made
that you know how you ended up involved
with the guy
so you know don't don't want people to
hang on to
false responsibility but it is important
to look at your part
in you know what you sort of got
involved with there and
and yeah i mean you didn't know what was
happening and i don't want to sound like
i'm judging
but there's there's a dualistic uh
reality there
and it's important to make sure that you
take care of your own
house right and what happened from your
perspective plus
all that they did right
and sarah i haven't seen my ex in three
years
and he texted me something about
marrying me i thought it was crazy
um that he's thinking about it he won't
see me but wanted to marry me makes no
sense
well right and so why do you think you
keep engaging
why are you not pulling no contact yet
because
um what part of you
in your unconscious mind
needs to keep repeating you know
the cycle uh he texts you with something
and of course it's never gonna be less
crazy
or less nonsensical um
so that's that's the whole thing about
um taking care of oneself
and getting fully out of the situation
and fully out of the contact
because it doesn't make sense
and do you really think you want to
spend your time
on trying to make sense out of it or not
or
trying to figure out why it doesn't make
sense
makes sense in in terms of understanding
somebody with bpd but it's
outlandishly ridiculous otherwise
so um but yeah i
i mean interesting that i don't know
when i when i bring up these topics but
um
i don't know what people think about or
if you will think about
the false self false self aspect
of how codependency develops has
developed in
in your lives or you know you know in
people with codependency where it comes
from
what it means and the toxic shame and
guilt
can be the biggest block of all creating
a toxic freeze upon response
in codependency that really is blocking
people from getting to no contact
because the other side of that
shame and guilt and taking too much
responsibility that isn't yours
for anyone doing that is
the flip side of it is still
self-abandonment
still self-sacrifice um
still opening oneself up to
to something that indicates
maybe something from childhood still
needs to be looked at a little more
deeply
yeah i remember that terry said i never
reach out first i'm still dealing with
residual codependency
i feel bad for him yeah why
i guess but do realize it's not my
problem anymore
but yeah but yet you still feel bad for
him
so i wonder who does he remind you of
mother or father
what is the sticking point and i mean
with all due respect
this goes back to something deeper
because it doesn't sound
me like for you it's really about him
um nancy i've never gotten validation
specifically words
of affirmation and physical touch from a
male
namely my dad in my life so love bombing
is words of affirmation and physical
touch
on steroids yes i totally understand
that
um and prior to the current partner i
had terrible experiences in romantic
relationships
yes i'm so sorry to hear that and i've
been also having a
career difficulties for a long time not
being able to get
a satisfying full-time job or run a
full-time business losing my steady
part-time job last week i'm sorry to
hear that too
and getting scammed by my ex-employer
last month
maybe these those things have made me
vulnerable
and susceptible well yes
and um i mean there's a lot going on in
the world that you know and people can't
control
everything for sure but um
yeah i mean then you said you got
scammed by
the ex-employer i'm so sorry to hear
that
but again i guess if there's remnants of
codependency
then toxic people or whatever your
ex-employer is about but toxic people
will sense that and take advantage of
that
and and that doesn't make it your fault
but i'm just saying
you know i think it's this is why it's
so crucial
for people to be really self-aware and
and i'm not saying you're not nancy and
the fact that you're aware that you know
it kind of goes back to your father that
you know he never
um you never got validation yes well
and maybe there's maybe there's still
some reparative work to do around that
you know to to give that validation to
your wounded inner child or
still somewhat wounded inner child um
that would probably help you uh hey
there joe hi aj stop following still
trying to get to no contact
still not quite learning slowly getting
less reluctant to go no contact
too much blame thrown my way after
something that starts out
um well i don't know if that's easy or
i'm not sure what that means but um
and just remember you know no contact is
is very painful very difficult because
when people go no contact it it will put
you fully
more in well maybe not right away but
the goal is to look at self
right look at the codependency look at
your own healing and recovery
and that means the difference between
not being full no contact and
being full no contact is that you can't
really
get on with your own healing and you're
not really don't mean just you
people often aren't then facing the pain
that they need to heal
and like i've said before it's never
gonna it's not gonna be like you're
gonna wake up one morning and go this is
the day i'm ready this is perfect
you know it's very difficult so um
sometimes you know like people just have
to kind of do it
and when i what i know is with clients
is you know and and
there's lots of fear around doing
there's lots of you know different
moving pieces of pain and difficulty and
still feeling sorry for them etc etc but
slamming that door shut and saying no in
that way and going no contact
is what opens up so much more the
healing and recovery journey
but yeah it does involve getting in
touch with people's own pain
that's not easy
sarah said it's a cognitive dissonance
it reminds me of my mom
the dynamic with him in is the same
as with my mom well and i think sarah
that's where you have to look to heal
some more of the dynamic with your
mother because
i don't think it's really about this guy
anymore except for that connection you
just made
you know which is um more than just a
reminder by the way
the dynamic is the same so there's still
something left over
and you know somewhat of a wounded inner
child inside of you
and you need to work on that to free
yourself of
the whole dynamic whether it's it's more
sort of
put out onto the x but as you know
it kind of originated with your mom rob
hi aj i felt
a lot of toxic guilt hit me this past
weekend
i am no contact and her birthday was in
june
also her sister contacted me but i
didn't open the email still feel like i
want
wanted to um talk to her but stop myself
i even felt guilty for not wishing her
um but i stayed strong i think you mean
wishing her a happy birthday
well yeah and i mean i think what's
important for people is to really dig
down and ask the question and journal
about it at the very least if you're not
working with somebody is why are you
feeling this guilt
and where does it go back to in your
childhood because
after they've it it's like the stockholm
syndrome of it all isn't it really
when when you're still identifying with
caring about feeling sorry for
feeling guilty about an abuser
right so complicated stuff for sure uh
dana thanks
um thanks you i learned so much about
bpd
thanks to your videos oh you're very
welcome
um i'm not sure if that's marcin or
markin
what's your opinion about telling the
closet family
closest sorry family in this case sister
of my ex-fiance that my ex
has bpd and she'll get treatment
um x is already married and pregnant
i felt i feel that i shall help in that
way
pain about telling the closest family
i would say don't do it you know because
it's you holding on to false
responsibility
again it's not your responsibility can't
save can't rest you can't fix anybody
um and and you know hey
it's on your mind and you care and
you're still somewhat involved with that
i get that out of your comment
but these are the the choices that
people have to make
to continue in their own healing and
recovery journey so that
you know you you think that you can help
in that way but
but you probably won't like you know
probably won't help
and the other thing is
you know this isn't your responsibility
so i you know i don't know but but
that's my opinion is that
you would be better off to just leave it
alone
keep focusing on yourself and your life
and keep moving forward
wheels i definitely think shame has a
huge impact on how i view my dad
on some level i don't i don't feel
like i deserve more than the crumbs of
decency i get sometimes
i also feel bad because dad gets psycho
wrath yeah but he married her
he married her and he stays with her
that's his problem
that's his responsibility so you know
and
let's face it when he's getting a wrap
you don't get it so
you know it's i hear your wheels and
it's it's that codependency right
it's the way that your mind was
programmed by these
people that somehow everything was going
to be your fault because they decided so
and keep remembering that your father
has not rescued you
your father as a child even your father
did not
do anything about all of this so if he's
getting the wrath of psycho
so what i mean easier for me to say but
that's where you
that's where you got to think about
aiming toward
because none of that's your
responsibility
he's made his bed he's laying in it
that's his choice
uh cb my ex stands for my emotionally
unavailable father
and my victim mother who always felt
abandoned
so i'm now associating both with my ex
trying to emotionally connect and feel
guilty for leaving
well see and that's where really getting
into this
healing recovery journey i'm always
talking about that i work with lots of
clients on
is so important because you have to go
back
to the origin of that with your mother
and father to heal
that in a wound in your wounded inner
child
or it's not going to change with the x
um real sometimes too
i don't know if this even makes sense i
think it's also the fact
that i just want someone to care about
me well yes and that's
and and i think that might that's in
there for sure
but then there's also that other moving
piece of this
journey here on wheels which is very
painful
which is um
you're not going to get one of them to
care about you because
it's the family system it's the way they
operate and it's unfortunately who they
are
you deserve it but you're not going to
get it
and that's really tough to have to go
through um
understanding and and processing
uh see the understanding all this makes
it so much easier
he could have taken steps for his own
recovery years ago
not my problem anymore right but where
it connects to
your father and your mother it is still
your problem very much you see it's not
really that the x is the problem
it's what's down deeper and you're
wounding your child
from your parents
um i'm glad something was interesting
there joe i don't know what you're
referring to but that's cool
and um yeah i just think people need to
know that you know
codependency is the abandonment of self
and it's learned it's not like you just
decided to abandon yourself
um but continual abandonment of cell
and the feelings of toxic shame toxic
guilt to go back to childhood
and then there's the false self involved
and so you're not getting to know who
you authentically are
you're not getting to build your
self-esteem and your self-worth
people need to and it's a process but
people need to work
on the inner child healing
family of origin work and
self-differentiation i just happen to
mention those three aspects
because that's what i do with so many
clients
and until unless people do that with
somebody in some
fashion or other you're going to keep
having these difficulties
that truly are being in a way projected
out
with people's codependency onto the acts
of bpd or the narc
or the whomever because it's not really
about them
it's about the repetition compulsion
within codependency
from how you were wounded as a child
that's where people have to go back to
the work
so when i work with clients it's often
that yes they're
talking about the borderline or the
narcissist or
parent and the acts and whatever and
they have to work on that as well but
then it's getting
into the deeper process of healing the
wounded inner child and what really
happened in family of origin what really
happened with the parent or parents
and so unless people are willing to do
that work you're going to remain
in an element of the false self within
codependency
you're not going to get to your
authentic self and you've lost yourself
more than than you were lost in
childhood to
again being with a cluster b and
replicating
the repetition compulsions of the
codependent
unhealthy relational style that nobody
chooses it happens in childhood
so again there's a lot of responsibility
for people with codependency to learn to
take
and to stop taking everything that isn't
you know stop taking on everything that
isn't
your personal responsibility but so many
people codependency
keep on you know putting it out to the
ex you know bpd or the narcissist or
even still blaming parents when really
now the journey is yours to take to do
the kind of healing
and the deeper work that will set you
free
and uh cpu said i'm so angry about
wasting so much emotional energy on a
daily basis due to ptsd
well it's it's not only due to ptsd it's
it's due to what you know i'm talking
about
here as well and it's like um
being angry about it makes sense because
anger
is a protective emotion because
underneath anger
is pain and grief he said i wish i could
direct this energy
on all the good things i could achieve
well if you do that inner child healing
work you'll be able to
um joe i wonder if my ex felt any less
triggered by leaving
me and going back to live with her
original bpd
her mom i mean i mean like the abusive
environment not being as threatening
real reciprocity oh wait a minute i
think i have to read that again
um cb i just want to say to you i hear
you when you say i keep trying but you
need to send in a
set an intention set goals behind the
intention
write it down find someone to work with
if you're not working with someone
already if you're working with somebody
that ain't working find somebody else
that's going to help you
and and help you to get there but you
have to have the intent to do it
and it's painful work but it's rewarding
work
you have to go through the pain in the
grief to let it go from childhood
to self-differentiate and get out of
family of origin roles and all of that
um you know stuff lack of a better way
to put it
so what you said there joe um
oh i see now on rereading your comments
so you think that the abusive
environment was not as threatening as
real reciprocity
well i think the abusive environment has
within it inherent threats
triggers open wounds etc
but um and i don't think a person with
bpd
like who you're describing probably not
having had
any or much therapy would be aware of
making any kind of choice between
going back to an abusive environment
versus trying to deal with being
reciprocal because
it's not even on the radar reciprocity
until unless they are significantly
treated
and then you said i meant that leaving
and going back to her mother
that has be bpd may be less threatening
than living with me
well i think there would be i don't
think it's less threatening i think it's
two different
kinds of threats and i think it's really
her repetition compulsion for what she's
most used to
tragically enough because going back to
you know the mother that wounded her is
not going to help her to be
it's it's going backwards instead of
forwards
but i think they were both um
yeah i can see where it was maybe more
threatening to try to
um live with you etc but
you see without treatment like you know
she's still very much
in that um child victim mindset
and she's going back to what she's used
to because it's an uncomfortable comfort
zone
and rab said i find that i'm battling
with myself
saying i have to heal myself now but
then it goes back to why things went
down the way
it did with my ex the mind games and
then anger hits me
well it sounds wrap like that's you know
you're resisting
you're resisting going where you need to
go which is understandable in the sense
that
it will be painful and then you said um
because you said when you you know you
need to heal yourself or maybe get some
help with that work
um yeah then the anger hits you because
anger again is protecting against the
pain
sounds like the pain is pushing up some
more
and that you kind of go around a little
cycle with it and then you get
angry um by by sort of involving the
x again when when they're not really
she's not really the issue anymore
and but then you get angry again and
then that keeps you
out of the work of going to the pain um
that goes back to your childhood
and people do this you know not not so
consciously but people do it
um
well said yeah it sucks to hear all this
but you ain't wrong
he would have figured it out and left
but i wonder if he knows
i'm the scapegoat oh yes he bloody knows
that
see when you're getting scapegoated he's
not getting it
when he's getting it you're not getting
it
and wants to keep me stuck to keep most
of the heat up yeah exactly he wants
you are he knows you're the scapegoat
and he knows that when you're getting it
he doesn't get it and so how selfish is
that
and how highly immature is that uh
you know someone who is supposed to
protect you and take care of you um
it's more than just immature it's your
father
if if he he has codependency and nothing
else
then then you know he's totally living
from that boso
for sure um joe thank you for your words
i'm going to book another session this
week so we can talk further
okay great well i wasn't going to say
anything about that joe but you did but
i look forward to talking to you again
um wales i know how quick my bros will
throw me under the bus to stay on
psycho's good side
and protect themselves why wouldn't dad
why wouldn't he protect himself by
throwing you into the bus are you sure
like i think i think he's already done
that many times
um so yeah i mean i'm not sure when you
say why wouldn't dad if you're asking in
a sense of
just trying to um hope that he wouldn't
be the same but i i don't think he's
very much
different from your siblings in that
regard
and let's face it i mean you know like
with my dark chad father for example
um you know when that guy roared
like i guess you know the golden child
definitely
he never roared at my mother so bazaar
but
i was the one who was gonna get it
although sometimes a neighbor got it
sometimes a relative got it too
but the whole thing was that people
would trip over themselves
often when there was relatives around
and stuff and he was about to lose it
and
roar and all this kind of abusive stuff
um
and everybody would just you know like
they'd forget that we had any
relationship or they forget that i
was daniel i was his bloody scapegoat
too and all they did was side with him
and
kind of like they didn't all stand up
and hide behind him physically but they
may as well have because
people want to bail out of that line of
fire and
they'll and they'll leave you standing
there by yourself
every single time that was my experience
and cb said that's the thing all these
patterns
are repetitive yes they definitely are
and they're repetitive on an unconscious
level and then people get
to varying degrees conscious like you
know you have some
insight there and some awareness but
it it you know i don't want to make it
sound like this journey
to heal from codependency and to heal
from whatever you know wounded your
inner child
it's not easy but it is so
it is so the way that you can free
yourself and it is so rewarding a
journey
and you said i'm proud of myself that i
managed to break through the gas
lighting
and reclaim my truth and stand up for
myself well yeah and now you just need
to set the intent
write it down with the goals find
somebody to work with
and start taking the next step in your
journey and then that'll be something
else to celebrate as well
because it's like one step at a time
right
wheels yeah that's what i'm saying he
definitely has thrown me into the bus
for himself
it makes sense that my dad would since
my bros and other relatives do
too or do yeah one i was just sharing
with you wheels like
that would happen to me too like you
know when i was a kid
if we were at my grandmother's or
another relative and there might have
been
several aunts and uncles and cousins and
like because i come from a big family of
origin
like i mean extend family and whenever
you know either my mother well my mother
tended to be more covert so she didn't
do it in front of other people
but when my father was gonna lose it and
i mean and i was gonna be the target but
people were just
literally i mean they weren't physically
but they would dive out of the way
i mean you know and and i'm not saying
physically
but i always knew you know i mean i
guess at a certain point when i was
younger i didn't but like i didn't know
what was going on but then as i started
to get you know 12 13 i kind of always
knew
it didn't matter what was going on
somebody else could piss him off
somebody else said his
you know wounded wounded tremendous like
little teeny weeny ego off and he was
gonna come and find me
and i was gonna be responsible for it in
his mind
um joe to cb how did you deal with the
gaslighting
and see he said my ex refused intimacy
at a fear of rejection
and gaslighted me trying to make me
believe that i was embarrassing
and that your wishes were unreasonable i
called them out on it
one just can't live like this yes
well that that's good that you were able
to you know work your way through that
see that gain that insight and stand up
for yourself
so now it's like you got to stand up
yourself a little bit more in a
different kind of way
and he said yes exactly i'm waiting for
a therapy place oh good
looking forward to this so much well
that's that's excellent
really important that people do take
that journey because without it
the repetition compulsions of bpd
or i guess narcissists have them do is
you know different things and then
the repetition compulsions of people
with codependency are going to keep
playing out
unless and until they get healed as well
so it's it's really weird because you
know codependency is
not really um you know thank goodness
it's got nothing to do with american
pseudoscience and psychiatry and their
stupid book to dsm
but um it's it's sort of out there
flopping around people interpreting it
differently
and you know so
and i won't get onto the subject much
except to say
i've been watching this crazy channel of
super warrior empaths
and and really you know it's it's
rampant codependency
but hey they have to do what they have
to do
um sarah what point does the person with
bpd become aware of the repetition
compulsion
well for some of them never
you know i mean um it it it takes quite
a bit
in treatment to become aware of that so
he said is it something they only
recognize in therapy pretty much yes
i don't think people would really get a
lot of window of insight into repetition
compulsions without therapy
and so at what point do they well some
of them never do
um same could be said for some people
with codependency though we're not
talking about the exact same repetition
compulsions
and wheels your story just made me
remember how much relatives friends and
others dove
out of the way and threw me into the bus
um the way your dad behaved with the
occasional relative or outsider getting
it
yes well but they wouldn't get i'd still
get it after they got it
right because nothing was ever satiating
of that dude
um
cb how to break through the gas lighting
never lose sight completely
of the objective reality how are how are
people dealing with things
etc and then compare also cultivate your
own inner voice
well yes which has a lot to do with you
know working on healing
the uh invoked narrative of
you know the inner critic
trusting instincts can help to a degree
for sure
nancy the bpd guy dealt with is
aware that he has bpd he didn't want me
to feel responsible for him
but he unconsciously ended up making me
responsible anyway
well and why would like how do you know
we didn't want you feel responsible
because what he said that
like that would matter um
yeah the people of bp and and i don't
know if he's had any treatment or not
but obviously not enough
they're always going to unconsciously
end up making others feel responsible
anyway
or you know people with still a little
bit of codependency or codependency
re-enlivened by
the situation going to take on that
false
load of responsibility again
because even though people bpd you know
project that out
and blame and thrust that on other
people
people need to not accept that right and
he said he's been working on resolving
his cptsd and is also in therapy
well he isn't getting far enough but he
hasn't addressed his bpd
well that's interesting i was going to
suggest resources for him but he had
already discarded me before i got the
chance
yeah do you think that was
like kind of like a measure of where
your codependency was
in that situation
dana did you already have
did you already have psychosis
when you were still suffering of bpd no
i never had any psychosis whatsoever
but then you have to remember i was
never assessed for bpd i was just
labeled with it
i don't think i ever fit the diagnosis
exactly but yeah i had a lot of trauma
to heal and recover from family of
origin but
uh no and not everybody at bpd has
psychosis and i never had a
psychotic second um never wanted to
commit suicide i was very atypical for
bpd
especially uh what it is today because
it's morphed and uh
the pathologizing of it is just never
gonna end
but uh it's funny when you said did you
already have psychosis
no when i had bp no i never did
um joe well my instinct my instincts
told
me for two or three years that my ex
would get better and that our love was
actually real
and it was very difficult to come to the
conclusion that it wasn't
well and sometimes with other things
going on
right instincts aren't as as
trustable as when there isn't so much
emotion going on and so much desire for
something to
come about in a way that one hopes for
it can kind of skew the um instinct
somewhat at times
um cb aj do you know anything about how
to manage cptsd symptoms like physically
overheating
i sometimes need to change my clothes
because i'm sweating so much
i just don't know how to manage well it
sounds like it's um
definitely like uh it could be
a somatic flashback that's driving that
so again you'd want to be working on um
you know as much healing and recovery as
you can you want to be working on what's
triggering that
um and and and that kind of thing
because
um yeah i mean you're dealing with
it the best you can when it happens but
the best way to manage it would be to
look for
the you know and again you could
probably do this more in therapy but
um look for where the triggers are
coming from
and what what is the cause because
otherwise you're just going to be
dealing with the symptoms
nancy he discarded me after i finally
set a few realistic boundaries with him
he perceived my action as abandonment
rejection well yeah and
that shouldn't be a surprise though
really right because even though the
dudes in therapy
doesn't sound like dudes getting
anywhere really
um wheels yeah same here aj even when
the outsiders get it
they get a pretty mild version and
there's always an aftermath of some kind
for you
yes absolutely um because
because they don't really unleash it on
relatives or others like they will on
the scapegoat
and i remember my father one time really
ranting and raving at a neighbor who
said something about why wasn't the
golden child learning how to drive or
something
and what my father's idiot
reasons for that were um although i
actually talked him out of getting the
golden child a motorcycle when he turned
16 because i'm like do you want him to
be dead or what because he's
not responsible enough to drive a
motorcycle
but anyway so so a neighbor a good well
quote friend of theirs
said something about it and um my father
just started yelling and screaming at
him it was amazing to watch because he
just like
tossed him out of the house
that didn't used to happen so much in
that out of control
fashion he used to have a better way of
doing that with others
see the trigger for heat seems to be
random but i notice it's more
when i'm anxious well and anxiety
can definitely you know drive
different imbalances in in the body etc
and so
i haven't heard i haven't heard this one
before but
making you feel really hot um
very possible so then you have to look
for what creates the anxiety what
triggers the anxiety
you said it seems to be random well but
maybe when you get your place
you know in therapy there that you're
waiting for you can look more into that
because
it's highly unlikely that it's random
but i can understand it would seem
random if you don't know
what it goes back to nancy yes he told
me he hasn't been happy with the therapy
he's been receiving
well yeah okay well
then there's a lot of resistance going
on there it sounds like
um i don't know are people supposed to
be happy in therapy i'm not i'm not sure
uh cb i'll see if i can make out
triggers
it's kind of constant immune system weak
got a kidney infection now if too much
cortisol
can do this then i need to find a way
meditation maybe
yeah or progressive relaxation um
and definitely no contact would help
um and it uh
yes i mean i'm sure that
you're you're getting triggered in a way
that is releasing too much cortisol
and then these are the symptoms of that
because they're different for everybody
so just remember though when when people
with bpd or even a narcissist you know
when they give that protective
identification of blame to you
codependents have to deal with the
reality of proposed cell
toxic shame toxic guilt taking
responsibility
that isn't theirs
well you know the fact that you think he
meant the quality of the therapy
uh it's hard to say what's going on
there right because is there a problem
with the quality of the therapy
or is it his problem i don't know the
answer to that
um
oh you're welcome cb yeah
so anyway with that i think i've um
said about all i had to say and uh
one of these days the the new format the
way i'm trying to do live streams is
you know i would hope for some questions
on the topic you know would be
would be nice and helpful helpful
helpful not to me but
a way that i could be more helpful to
others but uh
sometimes that's the case and sometimes
it's not and
this isn't a simple topic but i have i
hope people will
think about it some more and um
wheels you said in some ways i like uh
when her mask slips in front of others
usually but not always they slip in more
subtle ways
it's nice to know she can't always hide
crazy yeah but then other people
sometimes will shove that under the rug
you know even though they see something
and uh cb said i think my ex is more
narc
than bpd actually i'm journaling to get
the toxicity out of my mind
well and again whether he's more narc
than bpd
doesn't matter now right because again
that's
focus that is taken away from the focus
that you need to put on yourself
for your own healing and recovery
and stevie said you're being so
extremely helpful thank you for
all you're doing oh you're really
welcome so
and with that i must um yeah
get going here and um
i am going to think about the next topic
for the next live stream
and maybe people could think about if
they have any questions about
what information i'm sharing it's it's
not easy stuff though so maybe that's
why that doesn't happen
um
well that's an interesting question joe
but again whether her ex has been
diagnosed or not is like again who cares
i mean people have to refocus
oh you're very welcome nancy was it was
nice to see you again but i'm sorry was
under the
conditions of what you've been through
you know um
so yeah everybody take care and i just
gotta
wait for this thing to complete its
little cycle because i'm sure it's so
helpful
you know um yeah well all the best you
ability goat
um yeah everyone take care
you
