Alright guys, so today's video is gonna
be a little bit different. I've decided
since we're doing this month-long
read-a-thon for canceled athon, it's not
just gonna be a start of the month
announcement and an end of the month
wrap up with everyone all the co-hosts
talking about it. So I wanted to do a
little bit more than that. I wanted it to
be a bit more special. So I thought it
needs to be a community based event, and
so there's gonna be a new person every
week from within the book community,
talking about cancel culture. Some
people it might be that they were
impacted by cancel culture. So week one is
going to be a canceled Q&A with Jordan
Harvey, which we will get started with
soon, but before we go on with that week
2 will be a Q&A with small booktubers
and that's going to include Insatiable
Reads, Book Invasion, and Zachary Ryan.
So that should be interesting to, getting
a smaller book perspective; a perspective
that we don't hear a lot about. So week 3
is going to be a similar discussion on
cancel culture, but with OhSheReads,
then the final one, week 4, will be the
panel discussion with me and all of the
co-hosts about cancel culture, talking
about the same questions that we've been
asking the other people, and then we'll
move on to discussing and dissecting the
group books So You've Been Publicly
Shamed. So without further ado, we are
going to jump straight into the
questions and talk to Jordan Harvey
about cancel culture.
Hi guys my name is Jordan Harvey and today I'm
going to be sharing some thoughts on
cancel culture through A. G. Macdonald's
questionnaire, and we'll be discussing my
thoughts on cancel culture in general,
but also specifically on Book Twitter. So,
Question Number One is so many people
have different definitions of cancel
culture. How would you define cancel
culture? See I think this is the issue
there are a lot of different beliefs
about what cancel culture is under one
single umbrella term, and that is part of
the issue. I think it started out as one
thing, and it's morphed into different
things and I think talking about cancel
culture as a whole has become difficult
because it means different things to
different people.
Zack Tries to Read has a really great
video discussing some of those
differences and I would highly recommend
watching it, but for today's purposes, I
just like to talk about the kind of
negative side of cancel culture that
I've seen emerge and the kind of mob
mentality and that's the definition that
I'll be going off of when I'm discussing
the rest of the topics, unless I stay
otherwise. So I think cancel culture
actually started out as a really great
thing it was a way for people in
marginalized communities or with voices
not being heard and those people were
then able to call out people who were
above the law through privileged power
money, whatever the case; like Harvey
Weinstein or Jeffrey Epstein who weren't
being held accountable for their actions
and it was a way to have those voices
heard and to bring the issues to light
of what had been going on and I think
obviously that's really positive.
Unfortunately I think it's morphed into
something different
cancel culture now has become a sort of
mob mentality and it's become harder and
harder to take it seriously because of
some of the really toxic and damaging
things that have been going on under the
term cancel culture. It's now become a
way to ostracize someone, ruin someone's
career, or otherwise silence people which
is not I think the original intent it's
become really easy to distill criticism
because of Twitter's parameters, and to
something really small that is then it
doesn't take into account the nuances of
the issue and context oftentimes, and
then therefore people get outraged based
on the 120 character distilled criticism
that someone may have, and that's how
misinformation spreads, and that's how
the mob grows, and I think that a lot of
nuance has been lost which is a huge
issue. While the legal system definitely
fails, it's definitely got issues;
it also has systems in place to protect
people, unlike the internet. So that's why
I don't think people on the internet
should act as judge, jury, and
executioner because a lot of times they
aren't privy to information I think the
whole James Charles thing, which you know
obviously isn't part of book the book
community, still has a lot of relevance
because he was cancelled before he even
got to say anything before he got to
share his side of the story, and then of
course he was uncancelled, he did share
his side of the story but the people who
you know said really malicious terrible
things and I'm sure put them in a really
dark space they just get to walk away
scot-free and I don't think that's right.
But yeah, for the rest of this conversation,
unless otherwise specified, I will be
talking about the cancel culture that
is the mob mentality of silencing people
of censoring people of ending people's
careers, because that I think is really
dangerous. Do you think canceling
somebody's ever justified? Yes. Despite
all that I said I think the earlier form
of cancel culture is actually a really
positive one it gives voices to
marginalized groups, and people who don't
necessarily or wouldn't necessarily have
a voice without it.
So in that regard yes do I think people
should be cancelled over an opinion? No.
Do I think people should be cancelled
over a, you know, a theme that they
include in their book that could be
interpreted in different ways? No. Do I
think people should be canceled for
doing something that you know some found
hurtful but maybe it was unintentionally?
No. I think those people should be
educated I think those issues should be
discussed, but I don't think that is
something worth
ruining someone's life over now that
being said I do think it's completely
within one's own right to say. I don't
want to engage with that person or that
media for my own safety and protection
and well-being I think that is
completely justified, I also think it's
completely fine for someone to say I
don't want to support that person
financially and if that's your
definition of cancel culture, I think
that's completely fine. I think it's also
great to educate and say listen I saw
this video or I've read this book and
and someone mentioned this, which I found
to be hurtful and problematic and this
is why. The issue with Twitter though is
that it gets distilled down so much and
through subtweeting, it just becomes this
monster that isn't necessarily
completely informed a lot of people
haven't even seen the original video or
read the book and they'll just be going
off of what other people have said, which
can become really dangerous if those
ideas again are distilled down to 120
characters. So many of these dramas or
all people can talk about for a day or
two and then everybody forgets them and
moves on to the next issue. Do you think
they short attention spans actually stop
us from making a permanent change, or
does canceling one person send a message
to others? See this is where I think it
gets really dystopic and really scary
because I hate the concept of silencing
someone or ending someone's career and
that being used to send a message to
other people because that's when people
will begin to censor themselves, and be so
afraid of creating because you know they
could accidentally say something to hurt
someone and it could end them like that
is dystopia. To me that is horrifying.
Obviously, if it's something like rape or
murder or abuse that's one thing and I
hope that you know people think twice
before doing those things calling out
powerful men powerful, people in general,
for you know things that are against the
law is completely fine.
But calling someone out for having an
opinion and trying to end them for
having an opinion or for saying or
putting something in the work that could
be misconstrued. That is so wrong to me
because it will silence creatives
because of fear and I think that's
something that's starting to happen and
it's really sad. Especially because so
many of these things are forgotten
within a day or two because they aren't
actually important issues. They're things
that people just it feels good to be in
the mob it feels good to watch someone
get publicly crucified. It's safety
within numbers and it's a way to feel
justified and important but what you're
actually doing is really terrible and
terrifying.
It's ganging up on someone and silencing
them. I just have a lot of issues with
that. Do you think the frequency and
occasional ridiculousness of cancel
culture, like people trying to cancel
Laini Taylor because she doesn't like
slytherins, diminishes the impact of the
bigger issues? I didn't know that that
happened but that is ridiculous. Yes. The
short answer is yes. That is hilariously
wrong to try to cancel someone over not
liking slytherins. Do you think that
there is anything that people should be
cancelled for and never given a second
chance?
Yes. Rape, abuse, murder, if it's against
the law then yeah, that's probably a good
sign that that person should be
cancelled. If it's an opinion, if it's
something problematic in someone's work
if it's you know something that someone
accidentally said or some information
that got this quoted or whatever the
heck, no I think that that person should
have the chance to apologize. Do I think
that people within the community that
got hurt and need to accept that apology?
No. They can choose to not engage with
that media they can choose to say to
educate other people and say listen this
is a problem and this hurt me. This is
why so I don't choose to engage with
that person or their work and that's
completely fine but to say this person
deserves to be wiped from the collective
consciousness.
That's wrong and I think that people
should be given a second chance.
There's a really great video by a
channel called Make Stuff that
highlights the importance of making
mistakes which they highlighted through
Avatar The Last Airbender and uncle Iroh.
It's a video that I highly recommend so
if you have a chance go check that out
but I think that highlights the
importance of making mistakes and also
the importance of forgiveness well. I
don't think it's necessary for anyone to
get forgiveness. I do think it's
completely fine and important even for
people to make mistakes and then learn
from them, so it's a bit of a tricky one
to answer, but that's my thoughts and I
tend to lean towards forgiving people if
I've actually seen that they've learned
grown and changed their ways.
The term 'cancel party' has been used a lot on
social media over the last twelve months.
Do you think people are fighting for
what they believe in now or is canceling
the new pastime? Again this is difficult,
because there are different types of
cancel culture. The cancel culture that
I've been talking about the negative
variety I think that it has become a new
pastime of sorts. It's really easy. I hate
to compare it to this but it feels like
you know public executions the
guillotine. It's... You're watching someone
suffer you want to see them end and
you're just part of the mob enjoying
watching it happen. In some cases not in
every case, there are people who are very
respectful, and I think that's something
else entirely, but the cancel culture
that's become really toxic that's kind
of what I'm seeing, is the internet feels
justified in acting as judge, jury, and
executioner; based on limited and
sometimes misconstrued information and
that's a huge issue and people getting
involved often don't take the time to
properly research and form their own
opinions. So it does feel a bit like a
new pastime you get to feel great about
tearing someone down and I find that to
be a huge issue especially since a lot
of the people that are the most vocal
aren't even part of the groups that are
hurt or offended by something they're
just acting on behalf of some other
group that might
even feel as you know passionately or
like they might not even be offended by
something, but other people will step in
I feel like there's a lot of like white
straight guilt that, you know, leftists
are like, "oh my god, I need to step in for
people of color and for people in the
LGBTQIA community because I have... I
harbor a lot of guilt for you know
things other white straight people
have said". And so they'll step in on other
people's behalf without even actually
properly asking that community what they
think or they see one person from that
community say something and they're like,
"Oh yeah, that definitely must be true, and
therefore I will crusade til the death
to end this person's whole life". I don't
know I just there's a lot of issues that
I have again this is not universally
true, but it's something that I've
witnessed so I'll just leave that there
Obviously we can't go around saying
offensive things without being held
accountable. So what do you think we
could do as an alternative to cancelling
people? I think the biggest thing is
education and communication. It's so easy
with cancel culture to become black
and white you see these headlines
without reading the article you see you
know people distilled down criticisms
into 120 characters and often the ideas
become oversimplified and talked about
without nuance and then it becomes this
black and white issue like for example
if an author had a book that had themes
with slavery, let's say a fantasy book
that had themes of slavery and this
author was a white person, and maybe
slavery was viewed as bad but it wasn't
handled with the nuance that it
necessarily should have been. And then,
you know, a couple of people read the
book and they feel that the author
hasn't handled it with the care of that
they should have and that could easily
on Twitter be distilled down to you this
author did not handle the pain and hurt
that my people have experienced and
appropriated this narrative into the
work of fiction which could down the
line then someone
that'd be like this author has racist
themes in their book this author is
using black people suffering in their
book or whatever then that could you
know then this author is racist; then
anyone who you know has read the book
and is like, "Well no, actually this author
is disavowing slavery, and it's actually
viewed in a negative light in the book,
then you know they could be seen as
aligning themselves with that author and
then they could get ostracized and it
just can become a really negative train
of events that no one wins from... No one
wins from that. So I guess it's important
to get feel less outraged try to take a
step back and calm down read the book or
if you know for a fact that it might
hurt you, protect yourself don't read the
book and just say I'm not going to
engage in this media. I'm not going to
engage with this author I'm not gonna
engage with this Youtuber because I know
from content warnings from other people
in the community that this wasn't
handled with the care that it should
have been to protect me as a person who
has experienced something within that
realm, or if you do want to engage with
the person or the media, then you can say,
"Listen, I read this this actually wasn't
handled properly in my opinion because
of X Y & Z". And that is so much more
productive and then tearing someone down
or trying to end someone or ostracizing
someone from their community so I think
what is important moving forward is
using cancelling "cancelling" as a way to
either personally make the decision to
not engage with someone or something
or for example support them financially
or alternatively to educate other people
or educate the person themselves on some
of the issues that they or their content
has. But those are just my thoughts on
cancelling and cancel culture. I do think
there are some productive things that
have come from it but for the most part
I think that it's kind of morphed into a
bit of a monster that is more
destructive than it is productive, but
that's all I have thanks for listening
to my thoughts I would love to hear
yours on
cancel culture the practice of canceling,
whether you think that I've missed any
nuances of cancel culture as a whole or
if you're on the other side where you're
leaning more towards personal
cancellation of 'I don't want to support
this person or author', I think that's
completely fine. Yeah, I don't know. I
would just love to hear your thoughts
because I do think this is something
that really should be discussed in
today's day and age because I feel like
it's getting a bit out of control.
So thank you, A. G. Macdonald for having me
and I'm really excited to see what other
people have to say on this issue and
this topic. Thank you so much to Jordan
Harvey for joining this conversation. I
think it's a really important
conversation, and it seems incredibly
timely after 2019 was, I think, the
biggest drama-filled social media year
that we've had so far within the book
community, and I just think that we
really need to readdress how we approach
things. How we approach this kangaroo
court that we call Booktube. So, as I said
before there will be another three
Cancelathon videos this month. There
will be a discussion with small Booktubers next week
OhSheReads on the following week and
then the last week will be the panel
discussion with me Savy, Justin from
Ghost Reader, and Thee Princess from
Castle Library. So... So stay tuned for
those and as always like share subscribe
to all of those amazing things and I
will see you guys in the next video
