>> Michael: WELCOME BACK, I'M
MICHAEL COREN AND THIS IS "THE
ARENA," OBVIOUSLY.
THE MORAL MAZE WE HAVE MANY
SUBJECTS.
I THINK ONE MORE THIS MORAL
MAZE.
MARY WAGNER IS IN PRISON
BECAUSE SHE ILLEGALLY ENTERED
AN ABORTION CLINIC TO
PEACEFULLY PROTEST.
SHE HAS BECOME A HERO TO MANY,
BUT SHE IS COMMITTING AN
OFFENCE.
SOME WOULD SAY THE SOLUTION IS
TO CHANGE AND NOT BREAK THE
LAW.
ALISA IS HERE.
MARY, IS 39.
>> SHE IS 40.
>> Michael: AND SHE IS IN
MILTON, I THINK.
>> SHE IS AT THE VANIER CENTRE.
>> Michael: HOW MANY TIMES HAS
SHE BEEN ARRESTED.
>> SEVERAL TIMES OVER TWO
YEARS.
>> Michael: THERE IS ANOTHER
WHO IS HIGH PROFILE.
SHE HAS BEEN ARRESTED MORE
TIMES.
>> YES.
>> Michael: SHE WALKED UP AND
DOWN OUTSIDE ABORTION CLINICS.
THAT I THINK IS EASIER TO HAVE
AN OPINION ON.
THE BUBBLE IS A NONSENSE.
THEY ARE NOT PRONE TO VIOLENCE.
IN THIS CASE, MARY IS ENTERING
ILLEGALLY.
SHE KNOWS SHE WILL BE ARRESTED.
SHE IS DOING IT BECAUSE SHE
WILL BE ARRESTED SURELY.
>> IT'S FUNNY, NOTHING SHE IS
DOING IS ILLEGAL.
SHE IS GOING INTO THE WAITING
ROOMS OF ABORTION CLINICS WITH
ROSES.
A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO SHE 4
GIFT-WRAPPED ORNAMENTS FOR THE
MOTHERS AND SHE HAD A CARD WITH
THE HELP LINE NUMBER ON IT.
SHE ASKED THEM, WOULD YOU LIKE
A ROSE OR AN ORNAMENT OR DO YOU
NEED ANY ABORTION ALTERNATIVE
INFORMATION.
IF SHE SAY YES, SHE GIVES IT TO
THEM.
BECAUSE SHE IS TAKING AWAY FROM
THE BUSINESS-
>> Michael: SHE PRAYS, TOO?
>> SHE SPECIFICALLY TALK TO THE
WOMEN WAITING.
>> Michael: THERE WAS EVIDENCE
THAT SHE PRAYS.
THERE IS A LOT OF -- I THINK
DISINGENUOUS APPROACH.
SHE IS GOING IN THERE TO BE
ARRESTED.
SHE KNOWS SHE WILL BE ARRESTED.
SHE UNDERSTANDS THAT.
THIS IS INTERESTING, NO TELLING
WHAT IS GOING ON HERE.
THERE IS A DISRUPTION GOING ON.
THAT IS WHY SHE IS DOING IT.
I UNDERSTAND WHY.
BUT WHAT IS ACHIEVED?
>> SO MANY THINGS ARE BEING
ACHIEVED.
WE LOOK AT HISTORY AND CIVIL
DISOBEDIENCE HAS HELPED MANY
CAUSES.
THE DIAMOND JUBILEE MEDAL, HE
WAS SAYING THAT CIVIL
DISOBEDIENCE IS NECESSARY.
[TALKING SIMULTANEOUSLY]
>> BUT I THINK THAT NOT ONLY IS
IT EFFECTIVE IN HELPING THE
WOMAN WHO ARE SITTING IN THE
WAITING ROOM WHERE BABIES HAVE
BEEN SAVED BECAUSE SHE HAS
TALKED TO THEM IN A PLACE THEY
NEVER EXPECTED.
ALSO WHEN SHE GOES INTO THE
PRISON, SHE SAYS THAT 80% OF
THE WOMEN INSIDE THE JAIL HAVE
HAD ABORTIONS AND SHE IS ABLE
TO HELP THEM.
A MAJORITY OF THEM REGRET THEIR
ABORTIONS.
EVEN MYSELF, I WAS INVOLVED IN
A CASE BECAUSE AN
8-MONTH-OLD -- A WOMAN 8 MONTHS
PREGNANT WITHIN THE WALLS OF
THE JAIL WAS PRESSURED TO HAVE
AN ABORTION, BECAUSE SHE WAS
SAYING NO SHE WAS ONLY GIVEN
FOOD AND WATER -- BECAUSE OF
OUR INTERVENTION, BECAUSE
SOMEONE WAS IN PRISON, SHE WAS
ABLE TO GIVE BIRTH TO THE BABY.
>> Michael: IT'S MY JOB AS A
JOURNALIST TO ASK QUESTIONS,
NOT JUST HERE.
I'D LIKE TO SEE EVIDENCE OF ALL
THE PEOPLE WHO WERE WAITING
THERE TO HAVE AN ABORTION AND
CHANGED THEIR MIND.
AND WOMEN HAVING --
>> Michael: I HAVE AN ISSUE
WITH PEOPLE PROTESTING BECAUSE
I DO BELIEVE WITH THIS THING,
IT'S PART OF THE FABRIC OF OUR
CULTURE.
BEYOND PEOPLE SAYING SHE
SHOULDN'T GO TO PRISON.
I DON'T THINK SHE UNDERSTANDS
WHY SHE IS GOING TO PRISON.
SHE IS BRINGING ATTENTION TO
THE SUBJECT.
WHY ARE PEOPLE PROTESTING THAT
SHE IS IN PRISON?
THE LAW IS THE LAW.
THEY DON'T THINK, OH, GREAT, WE
GET TO ARREST HER AGAIN.
THEY ARE JUST DOING HER JOB.
THE LAW IS THE LAW.
CAN YOU CHANGE IT, BUT IT IS
THE LAW.
>> IN MANY CASES, THE JUDGES
HAVE A BIASNESS TOWARD THE
SPECIFIC CASE.
FOR EXAMPLE, JUST A COUPLE OF
YEARS AGO WHEN MARY WAS ON
TRIAL FOR DISRUPTING THE
OPERATION OF A BUSINESS, THAT'S
WHAT SHE GETS TRIED FOR.
WHEN ASKED WHY SHE DOES THIS,
SHE WAS TALKING ABOUT HOW SHE
HAS A HIGHER MORALE LAW.
THE JUDGE SAID YOUR LAW IS
WRONG AND YOUR GOD IS WRONG,
AND SCREAMED THAT HER MORALITY
WAS WRONG.
>> Michael: WHEN YOU SAY THERE
IS A BIAS, I KNOW IS LOT OF
JUDGES AND I KNOW THAT IS JUDGE
SAID, LOOK, I DON'T WANT TO DO
THIS, BUT YOU GIVE ME NO
OPTION.
IF YOU KEEP BREAKING THE LAW, I
HAVE TO IMPLEMENT THE LAW.
IT'S TOO EASY TO SAY ALL THE
JUDGES ARE BIASED.
MOST ARE NOT AND THERE ARE ALL
SORTS OF PEOPLE IN PRISON WHO
HAVE DONE NOTHING WRONG,
MINORITY BACKGROUNDS, NO ONE IS
CAMPAIGNING FOR THEM.
THERE IS A BIG CAMPAIGN IN
POLAND.
I HAVE TO SAY, IN CANADA AND
OUR CULTURE, THIS IS A GREAT
COUNTRY.
IT'S BASED ON FREEDOM AND
DEMOCRACY AND POPULARLYISM.
-- PLURALISM.
>> WELL, I MEAN, I'M NOT SURE
ABOUT THE POLAND SITUATION.
I KNOW THEY DID A DOCUMENTARY
OF HER THERE.
I WANT TO GO BACK TO THE FACT
OF THESE PEOPLE ARE JUST DOING
THEIR JOBS.
THERE IS A PRELIMINARY IN THE
'80s TOLD TO ARREST
PRO-LIFERS OUTSIDE OF A CLINIC
AND HE REFUSED TO, EVEN THOUGH
THAT WAS HIS JOB.
HIS MORAL CONVICTIONS PREVENTED
HIM FROM DOING SOMETHING WHERE
PEOPLE WERE PROTESTING AN
UNJUST LAW.
WHEN YOU HAVE SOMETHING SO
PREVENT IN CANADIAN SOCIETY, I
THINK MARY MAKES ALL PRO-LIFERS
LOOK BAD, SHE IS TREATING THIS
ISSUE LIKE THERE IS A CHILD
BEING KILLED.
>> Michael: MAKING THEM LOOK
BAD.
>> SHE MAKES THEM LOOK BAD
BECAUSE SHE IS ACTING LIKE --
>> Michael: WHAT IS THE POLICE
OFFICER WHO WAS TOLD TO GO TO A
CATHOLIC CHURCH TO ARREST AN
ATHEIST.
>> THERE IS A DIFFERENCE
BETWEEN SOMEONE MAKING A
DISTURBANCE AND SOMEONE TRYING
TO SAVE LIVES.
MARY IS ACTUALLY MAKING IT
TANGIBLE DIFFERENCE.
IF SHE IS GOING INTO A PLACE
AND HAS ROSES.
IF YOU KNOW HER, SHE TALKS SO
QUIETLY.
>> Michael: OF COURSE SHE DOES.
>> IT IS NOT HER MAKING THE
DISTURBANCE, IT IS THE NURSES
SCREAMING FOR HER TO GET THE F
OUT.
>> Michael: WE HAVE TO BE
HONEST HERE.
THEY WANT HER TO LEAVE.
>> ABSOLUTELY, BECAUSE IT'S
RUINING THEIR BUSINESS.
THEY DON'T GET PAID IF SHE
CONVINCES THEM NOT TO GET
ABORTIONS.
>> Michael: YOU KNOW WHY WHERE
I STAND ON THESE ISSUES.
I DON'T BELIEVE EVERYONE IS
SUPPORTS ABORTION IS A BAD
PERSON OR IN IT FOR THE MONEY.
I'VE MET TOO MANY.
I DISAGREE WITH THEM BUT I
DON'T THINK THEY ARE BAD
PEOPLE.
I HAVE MET PEOPLE IN THE
PRO-LIFE MOVEMENT WHO CONFUSE
ME.
>> ONE PERSON IS ON THE RIGHT
SIDE AND ONE PERSON IS ON THE
WRONG SIDE.
ONE PERSON STANDS FOR THE
KILLING OF DEFENCELESS HUMAN
BEINGS AND BUTCHERING THEM AND
OTHERS ARE TRYING TO STOP IT.
>> Michael: WHAT IS MORE
PRO-LIFE, RAISING A FAMILY,
PAYING TAXES, SACRIFICING FOR
YOUR CHILDREN, MAKING SURE THAT
THE HUSBAND AND WIFE IS WHO YOU
SHOULD BE AND GOING OUT INTO
THE WORLD THAT CAN BE
CHALLENGING.
OR BEING BEHIND BARS AND BEING
RECORDED -- REGARDED BY SOME AS
A GREAT MATTER.
>> I BELIEVE WE
