

### Relationship With God:

### Getting To Know God

### By

### Jesus (AJ Miller) &

### Mary Magdalene (Mary Luck)

Published by

Divine Truth, Australia at Smashwords

http://www.divinetruth.com/

Copyright 2014 Divine Truth

Smashwords Edition, License Notes

Thank you for downloading this ebook. You are welcome to share it with your friends. This book may be reproduced, copied and distributed. If you enjoyed this book, please return to Smashwords.com to discover other works by this author. Thank you for your support.

### This ebook is a transcript of a seminar delivered on 7th May 2011 in Melbourne, Australia by Jesus (also known as AJ Miller) and Mary Magdalene (also known as Mary Luck) as part of the Relationship with God series, on the subject of how to get to know God. In this talk they describe the way in which we can discover the truth about God and about other subjects through a process of experimentation.

### Reminder From Jesus & Mary

### Jesus and Mary would like to remind you that any document produced by Divine Truth containing any information from Jesus, Mary or any other person includes only a portion of God's Truth that they have personally discovered.

### It does not and cannot contain the entire of God's Truth since God's Truth is infinite and humankind will forever continue to discover more of God's Truth as we progress in receiving more of God's Love.

### Please remember that due to these limitations information contained within this document may need to be revised in the future.

### Many other ebooks have been published by Divine Truth, including ebooks translated into a variety of different languages.

### Please visit <http://www.Smashwords.com/profile/view/DivineTruth> or www.divinetruth.com for further information.

### Additional sessions on the subject in this book can be found on www.Smashwords.com/profile/view/DivineTruth

### For more information go to:

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Table of Contents

1. Introduction

2. The emotional basis of Chronic Fatigue

2.1. Spirits draw energy from us through our emotional injuries

2.1.1. Feeling our fear protects us from spirit influence

2.2. Processing spirits' emotions

2.3. Processing fear by living in truth

2.4. We can avoid fear of anger by placating others or creating illness

2.5. Coming to trust God through our emotional processing

3. Getting to know God

4. The three categories of truth

4.1. Being realistic about what we know for certain

5. How to discover the truth about God

5.1. Determining whether God exists

5.2. Determining whether God is good or bad

5.3. Determining whether God is an entity or an energy

5.4. Determining if we can have a relationship with God

5.5. Determining if God cares for us

5.6. Experimenting with our relationship with God

5.7. Embracing the process of asking questions about God

6. Truth is only certain once we have experienced it

7. Reasons why we don't enjoy the discovery process

7.1. God created us to experiment

8. Using experimentation to discover other truths

8.1. The example of Jesus' resurrection

8.2. Experimenting with Divine Truth teachings

8.2.1. The example of Mary growing in love

8.2.2. If there's any doubt about truth, it's still in the "maybe" category

9. What it is like to be at-one with God

9.1. Having no fear

9.2. Loving others at all times

9.3. Feeling constantly loved by God

9.4. Feeling good about yourself

9.5. Speaking the truth at all times

9.6. Being completely God reliant

9.7. Feeling others' emotions

9.8. Discovering the truth about at-onement

10. Being willing to make mistakes

10.1. The example of AJ being truthful about his identity

11. Closing Words

1. Introduction

How is everyone? [00:00:16.21]

**Participant** : Good, excited. [00:00:18.13]

We thought actually with such a group that it would probably be better to have a bit of an interaction with you guys, in terms of questions that you would want to ask. We haven't got any specific subject that we wanted to talk with you today about but we would love to answer any of the questions that you have. [00:02:28.17]

Okay, fire away people. Everyone is shy. There's no point coming along and not wanting to say anything! Face your fear and go ahead. Good on you. [00:05:07.04]

2. The emotional basis of Chronic Fatigue

**Participant** : Last time I was at the workshop I spoke to you about my Chronic Fatigue and my hook into needing people's approval. Now I sometimes feel like I'm being physically attacked by spirits because I have days when I just deteriorate so dramatically and so quickly, and it's scaring me. I'm confused what the hook is into them. What do they get from me? [00:06:02.18]

Okay, well let's draw what's happening for you. So here's Elvira. Sorry about the dress, Elvira! If you had no emotional injuries at all, what would happen is you would have a nice smooth protective barrier around yourself (what some people call an aura). So no person would be able to hook into any emotion that you have and draw from you, and you wouldn't be able to hook into anyone else's emotion either or draw from them in that state, because you'd also be loving. [00:06:51.04]

With no emotional injuries we would have a protective barrier all around us

Now, as soon as you have an emotional injury, then there's a crack, or a hole in that aura or that field of protection around yourself. And the more emotional injuries we have, the more cracks there are into our self. So you can imagine there are these energy vortexes. And this is how they actually look to spirits, these energy vortexes that enter certain parts of our body through those cracks. And it doesn't matter whether the person is in the spirit world or on Earth; if they are here on Earth next to you, they can also draw energy from you as a result of those cracks. [00:07:49.27]

So what's happening for yourself quite frequently now is that you're trying to see, "I've got something going on with this person on Earth and I've got something going on with that person on Earth." And you are trying to address some of those things that you have got going on with the people on Earth.

Emotional injuries create holes in our protective barrier through which energy can be drawn from spirits or people on Earth

2.1. Spirits draw energy from us through our emotional injuries

The problem is that there are all these spirits that surround you. These spirits also know every one of those cracks and they will attempt to draw your energy from you wherever they can. That's their desire, which is all based around what they want out of the interaction. And your allowing of it is about what you want from the interaction or what you allow from the interaction. You see, a lot of times we don't want something specifically, but we feel like we have to give it. [00:08:41.26]

So for example something that has happened in your life a lot with women is that you feel like you've got to do things for them no matter what they're demanding from you. So that's one of the emotional holes if you like. So if I were a woman in the spirit world, I would see that hole and then I go, "All I've got to do is pressurise Elvira a bit and she'll automatically allow me to draw from her emotionally." [00:09:07.23]

**Participant** : What emotion do they get from me? I don't understand. That has always confused me about what it is that spirits can conceivably get. [00:09:18.01]

Well, one emotion that they get from you is your fear. In other words, they can project something at you, like be nasty towards you, and they feel you go afraid. And they like that. Because what that does, it gives them a feeling that they're more powerful than you. It gives them a feeling that they're in control of you. [00:09:38.17]

So, some of the spirits who are around you are addicted to your fear. They like seeing you afraid. They like seeing you feel scared for your life, in fact. And if you think about the last few weeks in particular, you can feel some of that fear. When you start getting quite ill, you can almost feel that fear for your life kicking in as well. And that's what they love to see happen to you. They love you being afraid for your life. It makes them feel powerful and in control of you and some of them laugh at that, and some of them are condescending towards that. Others are actually just quite vicious and they just like to have that feeling of power over you. [00:10:21.21]

**Participant** : So I need to go into the fear of that? [00:10:24.23]

The fear that you might die. That is one of the fears they're playing upon. You have a number of other fears. Fears about embracing a life of desire. So, if you think back over your life, every time desire has come along, you've almost been in two minds. Or, if I could say it more like what it really is, you really have two feelings that are almost opposing each other. One is, "I would love to follow that desire." The other is, "I'm scared as hell about following that desire and where that's going to lead me." And so what they do is they manipulate you through your fear. [00:11:08.21]

So fear is a big part of what they're doing with you. They cause you to become so afraid that you're willing to give to them yourself almost, energy wise. You're willing to give yourself to them just to prevent their rage towards you or their anger towards you. [00:11:28.24]

2.1.1. Feeling our fear protects us from spirit influence

**Mary** : And it's the resistance to feeling that fear that is allowing them to draw the energy from you. So you need to just soften into the fear, and just let yourself feel how terrified you are that they are going to attack you, and harm you or reject you heavily. A lot of the approval addiction is about just avoiding the horrible ostracism that you fear. If you can soften into the fear, then it feels scary, but you'll still have your energy. It's the resistance to the fear that's causing the drain. [00:11:57.16]

You resist the actual fear emotion, which is something that you've done most of your life. You were taught how to do it from your childhood, and you've been doing it most of your life now. So it is a pattern that has been built up over your life. But as you start stepping into your fear, you'll find spirits and others can actually hurt you less. [00:12:28.09]

Most of us are afraid that with fear, if we step into our fear, people will be able to harm us more. So most of us think that we are going to get harmed more, we'll be more open and more vulnerable, and so we worry so much about that that we resist our fears. But the irony is that when you feel your fear, the hole that allows somebody else to control your fear gets patched up. So when you feel your own fear, the hole that allows somebody else to control your fear is no longer present in that moment. And so, in that moment you can no longer be influenced by the external person. [00:13:13.14]

Feeling our fears patches up our emotional holes

In a lot of ways it's about having a loyalty to the truth. Once we have this loyalty to the truth, fear does not become the dominant thing controlling our lives anymore. And what's happening for yourself is that fear is quite a dominant part of control. And so that's open, and so if anybody now wants to control you, all they need to do is tell you that, "You're a bad person, that you've done bad things in your life and you should be ashamed of yourself," and a few other things like that. Or they can even be less blunt than that and say, "In this interaction you're not being nice to me," and all of a sudden you will feel like you've done the wrong thing and have to be nice. [00:13:59.14]

So, because of that, they're sort of manipulating the fear that you have of being disapproved of. They're manipulating that through that opening and now they really have control. All they've got to do is make a few suggestions to you that, "You're bad, you're this and you're that," and all of a sudden you'll try harder, give more, which is what the problem is. This is what causes the chronic fatigue, the desire to give more and more and more and more to placate the fear that you can't feel inside of yourself. [00:14:31.05]

2.2. Processing spirits' emotions

**Participant** : I've been like crying and shaking now since I started watching your videos. Have I been just doing capping emotions? [00:14:40.09]

Well the other problem you face, Elvira, and it's going to take a little bit of time for you to work through this, is you also have a group of women spirits surrounding you who are very, very afraid. And they feel your fear and they commiserate with it. In other words, they feel like, "Don't you go and feel your fear. We've got to try and get away from our fear, we've got to do whatever we can to help you avoid your fear," and so forth. But a lot of times when you start processing, because of this willingness to feel other peoples' emotions that you have quite strongly, you're allowing them to process through you. And as a result of that, they get to feel some of their fear through you and they get to feel some of their grief through you. And this is because at the moment it's very hard for you to determine what the end of you is and what's the beginning of another person. They almost feel at the moment like they're you even. That's how close they are to you. They almost feel like they are you. And so a lot of times you are very willing to feel their emotions, but also avoiding your own in that moment. So you'd be crying but actually... and to be frank many people are doing this still; they are crying but they are actually crying somebody else's emotion or in commiseration with somebody else's emotion. They are not actually crying their own life; they're actually feeling about another person's life. [00:16:17.29]

2.3. Processing fear by living in truth

**Mary** : Can I add to what you've just said about processing fear, because I've put a lot of focus on that in the last few months? I've found that stepping into desire and taking action... not in the sense of, "Okay, I'm afraid of heights, I'm going to jump out of an aeroplane", but instead firstly connecting to, "What is my desire? What do I feel the truth is in this situation? I'm going to stay true to that, and step into whatever this experience is." And that is the time when I've been triggered and released the most fear. And I've had to leave an interaction sometimes and go and process.

**Mary** : Fear is the thing that limits our actions and desires. Even just focusing on, "I'm going to take a new action or I'm going to step into this desire," can trigger our fear much more than just sitting and going, "Okay, I'm afraid of other people, I'll just feel that." If it's not changing in my interactions with other people, I know I'm not releasing the fear, because immediately that I start releasing the fear of other people, my interactions with other people will change. But also my experience is when I step into more interactions with people, by first recognising, "What is my addiction? How am I going to challenge this?" and then step into the interaction, my fears have been challenged and released far more rapidly. [00:17:53.03]

**Participant** : Would you mind giving me an example of something that you've done recently? [00:17:59.29]

**Mary** : Sure. So I've got a lot of terror about spirits. And so I started running the mediumship team in the God's Way of Love Organisation that we've just launched. And there are a number of people in that team who have been very spirit influenced in the past and very attacking as a result towards AJ and me. At the opening of the first meeting, I said, "Guys we need to talk about the fact that spirit influence can happen and how we're going to deal with it. How, as a team can we make sure that we don't make this a venue for spirits to influence all of us into other interactions that aren't authentic?" So we agreed that if a person is spirit influenced, we would give them some truth and ask them to leave and they could come back at a time when they weren't so over-cloaked.

**Mary** : By the end of the first meeting, someone became very influenced by some spirits who are very violently opposed to myself and AJ, but specifically myself. I could feel my fear, and I thought, "If I don't submit to this fear in my interaction with this person, I'm going to get resistive or I'm going to get angry with them and try and shut them down." So because I wanted to stay in truth, and in a loving space with the whole group, I went, "I'm going to have to soften into this fear," and I stood and shook and talked to the person about what I could feel was happening. We spoke at length and he couldn't see what was happening. So eventually I had to ask him to leave, and he was very angry with me. But during the whole process, I remained connected to myself, because, this is the beautiful thing about when we soften into our fear, we stay in connection with ourselves. We know what is loving in that space, even if we might be shaking. And so I shook and asked him to leave and since then I feel less fear of those kinds of interactions. But I had to challenge it in the moment. [00:20:05.22]

For yourself, Elvira, anger is the result of the underlying fear not being felt. So whenever you feel frustrated or angry, it's because you're not allowing yourself to feel the underlying fear. Anger is your guide into what you're avoiding. So you know straight away if at any time you feel just a moment or tinge even of frustration, whatever it's about, it might even be about the fact that you're feeling ill and you feel quite angry that you're feeling sick, allow yourself to realise, "Actually this is covering over my fear about feeling sick." And allow yourself to go into that fear and feel that fear instead of trying to avoid it through anger. [00:20:58.06]

2.4. We can avoid fear of anger by placating others or creating illness

So you'll do usually one of two different things to avoid your fear. When somebody projects at you, "I want you to do what I want", you'll either do what they want, which is a way of avoiding your terror of them when you don't do what they want, or you'll feel quite ill. You'll actually create more physical ailment within yourself as a way of excusing yourself from doing what they want. So the creation of the sickness is actually helping you avoid what they're projecting at you, without actually having to say to them, "You're actually wanting me to do something, and no, I'm not going to". You can now say to them, "I'm sorry, but I can't help you because I'm feeling sick and I really need to rest". It's a way of actually avoiding the confrontation emotion. [00:21:49.28]

So the way the spirits and people around you manipulate you is they project the rage at you... or to be more honest, it's the threat of rage toward you. So in other words, you're very, very sensitive to people who potentially could become rageful with you. Most of the time, they don't become rageful because you're already doing what they want. So because you are already doing what they want, they're not going to get into a rage with you. What you're scared of, is stopping doing what they want and then they'll get into rage with you. And the way to avoid that then is to actually have an illness, where you go, "I'm too sick to do what you want". And it's a great way of actually not having to confront their rage, because they at least might have some compassion for your sickness and therefore not be angry with you for not doing what they wanted you to do in the first place. [00:22:53.00]

The threat of rage can cause us to do what others want

Now the original question you asked was about the co-dependency. In other words, what are you addicted to getting from them? Well firstly, you're addicted to preventing their potential anger. How does it feel when somebody is angry with you? [00:23:14.06]

**Participant** : My dad scared the crap out of me. [00:23:18.18]

Yeah. And how do you feel about yourself when they're angry with you? [00:23:23.00]

**Participant** : Helpless.

Yep. And if you allow yourself to settle even further down, you'll find actually there's quite a few emotions in how you feel when they are angry with you. Terrible feelings inside of yourself about yourself. You almost blame yourself for another person's anger with you. [00:23:43.09]

**Participant** : Yeah, I wasn't good enough to stop it. [00:23:46.02]

Yep. So in other words there's an automatic threat from a person who is potentially in a rage with you, a person who has an underlying soul condition where they can easily get into a rage with you if you don't give them what they want. If you think about your parents, that threat has come from them, quite strongly when you were little. This automatic threat of, "Unless you do what I want, then we're going to have trouble here." And after a while, the child learns, "I've just got to always do what they want and then I'll avoid their rage. That's how I avoid their rage." So I just do, do, do, do and eventually exhaust myself doing to avoid their rage.

So what you're addicted to is avoiding other people's rage. Avoiding the emotion that comes from them to you, when you don't do what they want. That's what you are avoiding. And those emotions are all sorts of emotions, ranging from condescension right the way through to just bare violence. And you have a range of people around you like that, from people who will just be condescending towards you right the way through to somebody who will just be angry and really quite violent with you. And if you think back to your childhood again, you had the same pattern going on there. [00:25:17.27]

So after a while we become so addicted to having a person not be angry with us that we'll do almost anything they want in order to prevent them from being angry with us. And there's my hole. My hole is actually, "I need to learn that it's okay for the other person to be angry with me. I'm still not going to do what they want, even when they're angry with me, and even if they're condescending towards me. Even if they tell me that I'm a bitch or a bastard, even if they tell me that they're going to try to harm me, I'm still not going to do what they want." [00:26:00.04]

And in fact what happens with me, the more a person treats me that way, the less chance there is of me doing what they want. For yourself, the more they treat you that way, the more chance there is of you doing what they want. Do you see? There's a big difference between those two states. [00:26:18.29]

2.5. Coming to trust God through our emotional processing

So the key is to allow yourself to see how frightened you are. In a way I'd say that the underlying causal emotion is partly about how much you can't trust that God is going to protect you in an angry situation. And that is a really deep childhood feeling that you have that you weren't protected in angry situations. So the key is to allow yourself to embrace that grief fully and let yourself fully feel that, "No, God's not going to protect me, so I've got to come up with some alternative arrangement here." And the alternative arrangement is, 'I'll do whatever they want'. That's the alternative. [00:27:04.07]

**Mary** : Would you say that's really the block to Elvira processing her fear? [00:27:10.00]

Yes

**Mary** : Because at the moment you touch into your fear and you go, "No, no, no, no, I can't do this, because I'm not going to be protected." Whereas once you grieve this feeling that God's not going to be there, you'll have more faith and then when you hit your fear you'll go, "It's okay, I can just surrender into this fear." [00:27:25.00]

And, "God will help me through the whole process. God will help me deal with this emotion." [00:27:28.23]

**Participant** : I've actually been surprised every time I go into something, somewhere in there is God even though I don't trust him. [00:27:39.08]

Exactly!

**Participant** : And I've raged at God but I don't know how to build that trust. [00:27:51.23]

Could I discuss with the whole group how to build trust in God? That would be a good thing to talk about I think. There are some simple and direct things you can do to slowly build your trust in God and get to know God better.

3. Getting to know God

I feel that for many of you, you're doing emotional work, which is great, but you're forgetting the reason why we're doing emotional work. It's only so that we can connect to God better. That's the only real reason. [00:28:34.27]

Now, if inside of myself I don't believe God really exists anyway, I don't feel that God's an entity, I don't feel that God's very trustworthy or I don't feel that I can have any faith in God being good, then how am I ever going to want to deal with an emotion that's preventing my relationship with God, when I already have all these blocks towards God anyway? [00:29:02.05]

So what we need to do is we need to come to understand some basic ways in which we can get to know God better and come to trust Her. And for many of us, it's because of the lack of trust in God and the lack of faith in God that when we hit a certain emotion that's quite dark and deep within us we automatically stop. Because what else do we do when we are self reliant? When we are self reliant, we have this tendency to hit the emotion, we go as deep as our self reliance will allow us, but not deep enough to release the emotion. And as a result, because there's this gap about how we feel about God dictating most of our life, we don't actually go through into that really dark place that is going to rip the emotion out of us and it will be gone. So what happens is we get so deep, until self reliance kicks in and we go, "No I can't do any more now. That's it, now I'm frightened, now I'm terrified, now I can't go further." And we even say to ourselves, "I can't do this, I can't do this." We tell ourselves these messages constantly that we can't do it. [00:30:24.12]

And so what we want to do is find a way in which to get to know God. And by the way for many of you guys who are struggling with your emotions, this next part is also really good. Because what I find in many of our discussions is a fellow will come up to me and say, "Look, I have a lot of trouble getting into my emotions". And I go, "Well, actually it's not really about getting into your emotions, it's really about getting to know God and then, in the process you'll get to feel some emotions." The emotional side is really a subsequent result of your desire to get to know God. Not the other way round. And then I get asked, "Well, I don't really believe God," or, "I don't really believe that God exists," or, "How can I know?" And I'll go through with you now the basis of how you can know. [00:31:13.24]

**Mary** : In the last 6 months my focus has been about God and creating this relationship. That is the basis of this path, but I too neglected that for a long time because I was very caught up in who I was and not wanting to be that person and all these other issues and emotions, a lot about my family. And I never stopped and went, "This is about me connecting with God and getting to know who 'me' really is, whoever that might be." And just stopping and focusing on that and exercising my desire to know and understand God brought me lots of different books and experiences, and it's also really empowered me in this emotional process. I really want my emotions now because I really want God. And God isn't like this religious figure that I had a lot of baggage about, such as God and religion being the one thing and being controlling and hypocritical. Stopping and feeling, "Who is God and how much do I want God?" has really helped me so much. So I feel it is such a beautiful topic to talk about and one that I am quite passionate about. [00:32:33.04]

**Mary** : The other thing is that a lot of people have a lot of trust issues with AJ. He's saying he's Jesus. That's a pretty big deal and it triggers emotions for everyone on the planet, let's face it. Whether we want to feel about that yet or not, it's definitely there. And I was speaking to a group recently and I was saying that for myself, I also had a lot of issues with trust with AJ. And I also had a lot of issues with trusting what I felt was this other identity, who I am. Taking my focus to God and developing that relationship and trusting that God can teach me these things has streamlined not only my emotional processing, but this relationship with AJ. Because I'm not having to trust AJ, I'm not even having to trust myself – I'm having to trust what I feel, but beyond that I get to trust someone who really knows what he's talking about. And that I feel for everyone on this path, it's not about us, we're here to teach it. But really please know it's about God. It's not even really about your emotions. Yes we're emotional beings, but in the end it's about God and it's the best relationship ever. And that's why we stand up here and just talk about all these different things; it is only in the hope that you might know God a little bit better. Because once you make that connection, you don't need us anymore. [00:34:08.13]

4. The three categories of truth

So what we will do is we'll go through how to get to know God, in a really practical, down to earth, pragmatic way. Something that will make a lot of sense to you. Let's focus firstly on the issue of truth. Now I don't mean God's Truth and I don't mean your truth either. In this case what I am talking about is that there are basically three categories that we can put most things in when it comes to truth. [00:34:44.00]

One category is, "I don't believe that's true". Let's call that category number one. I think of these categories as piles of pieces of paper that I've put together from different things that have happened in my life. So here's pile number one, which is basically, "All the things I don't know." Now, of course that pile is pretty big, is it not? You think of all of the things that you could possibly know in the universe, and for the majority of us that pile is probably the largest pile of all three piles; all the things that we don't know. Or we could say they're the things we don't believe and we don't even know what we don't believe at this point because it is just stuff that we have never learnt about. [00:35:41.21]

Then there's another pile. This pile is usually much smaller and this is, "All the things I think I know." Now for many people that is still a large pile because often we have a very inflated viewpoint of what we know and so we have quite a large pile that we think should be in that category. And then there's this third pile and at a lot of times at the beginning, and particular when it comes to what we know about God, this pile is almost non-existent. This is, "What I definitely know and feel as truth". [00:37:04.06]

**Mary** : So it's like the 'for sure', the 'maybe' and the 'no idea' piles. [00:37:09.10]

Yes. So as Mary just suggested, you can think about all truth as piles of, "I'm sure", "I think I'm sure" or, "Maybe". For the last two thousand years of my life this is how I have approached everything. For everything I have ever done in terms of discovering truth, this has basically been my approach. I am basically aware that there's a huge amount of things I don't know, I'm also aware that there's things I think I know but they might be true or they might not be. [00:38:00.10]

**Mary** : So the 'maybe' pile is like a hypothesis? [00:38:02.09]

Yeah, it's almost like a hypothetical theory. I'm testing it. Things in the maybe pile are the tests that I put in place about truth. [00:38:14.14]

But then there's this 'for sure' pile. One thing I discovered in the 1st century quite early was that there were things that I knew for sure, no matter what anybody else thought or said to me. I knew that when they were saying or thinking something that was in disharmony with what I felt to be true, then it was definitely wrong. One of the other things I learnt quite early was about my relationship with God; that there is a God who is an entity. That was something that I knew for sure quite early in my life in the 1st century. We will talk about why I knew that as we progress. [00:38:46.05]

So you can think about this for every single truth that you could ever ask a question about. So for example, "Is there such a thing as the Law of Attraction?" Well, when we first hear about the Law of Attraction we go, "I've never heard of that". So that is in the no idea pile. Then we start to experiment with it a bit and we get to the 'maybe' pile of, "I think there might be such a thing as this Law of Attraction. I seem to experiment with it a bit and how it works. I've got no idea really, but I experiment and before I know it things become real." And then once things start to really gel, I go, "Wow this Law of Attraction is not about what everybody thinks, it's not the mind being exercised to think about something and all of a sudden it comes, but rather it's about desires and passions of the soul influencing the whole thing." And once I start exercising my desire and passion of the soul all of a sudden things are attracted and I notice the attraction instantly. I'm going, "Wow, there's a direct co-relation between what's going on in my soul and what I am attracting right at this moment. That direct co-relation is happening." And once I hit into that knowing, now I can put into my 'for sure' basket. [00:40:02.18]

Now what happens for many of us when it comes to this process is that we have a lot of judgement of the process. So in other words, when you're asked a question, "Is this true or not?" most of us have an emotion of, "If I say I don't know, they're going to think that I am an idiot. So it's best for me to say, 'I think I know that it is.'" Or even say that it is, when I'm not really sure. In other words, we start to falsify what we feel sure about inside of ourselves just for the sake of pleasing somebody else emotionally. That's what we do. And most of us have gotten used to doing that so much that most of the time we try to live in the 'maybe' pile; in other words, where we think we know the truth and we're quite definite about it. But actually if we're really honest with ourselves we're not really sure, we just think we're sure. It's really a 'maybe' inside of ourselves. But we're not honest enough with ourselves because we're worried about what everyone's going to think if we don't have a specific opinion.

And this relates a lot to childhood emotions regarding our parents. If we didn't have their opinion, then automatically we were wrong. How many of your mums and your fathers allowed you having a completely different opinion to them without them in some way being upset with you? It's a fairly rare parent that actually can do that and it's a very good parent who can do that too, by the way. So there we are, they're our three piles.

4.1. Being realistic about what we know for certain

Now, how does this all apply to discovering God? Well the fact is that the majority of us don't know anything about God when we begin. [00:42:03.12]

**Mary** : Even after we've watched "Secrets of the Universe", and we go, "Oh, wow!" We can then just want to put ourselves in the 'for sure' pile. But the truth is that we haven't had that discovery for ourselves. We've just heard about it and gone, "I think there is something in this." [00:42:19.11]

And we are fascinated by it, but that doesn't make it real. [00:42:23.05]

**Mary** : And we've got to stop kidding ourselves that it's real. We've got to go, "No this is my personal relationship and I have to discover this." [00:42:31.09]

So we need to learn to be very truthful about everything including God. And to be frank, at the moment for most of the audience, there are a lot of things you think are maybe true about God, but as yet they are not certainties. [00:42:50.07]

Now let's look at what you raised Elvira, trust in God. If God was a certainty and I knew for certain that God was loving all the time and I knew for certain that all of God's Laws were always loving and I knew for certain that God viewed me as a precious child who I could have a relationship with, if I knew those things for certain, do you think I would not ever trust God? Of course not! So the fact that I don't trust Her means that I don't know those things for certain. The proof is in our life. If we're still being self reliant then we don't know God for certain. And that's okay. Don't judge that. Just see it as the truth. "This is the truth of where I'm at right at the beginning. Where I am at right now is that I've got a very small 'sure' pile about God." [00:43:43.25]

Now to be frank some of us don't even have a 'sure' pile about whether God exists or not at this point. And we're trying to follow the Divine Love Path without even feeling for certain that God exists. What's the point of doing that? I might as well firstly go through a process of finding out whether God exists or not, surely? [00:44:04.02]

**Mary** : And this is where a lot of guys say to their partners, "You've got to feel your emotions, got to feel your emotions, got to feel your emotions". [00:44:10.04]

And he's going, "What's the point feeling my emotions? I don't even believe there is a God yet". [00:44:15.17]

**Mary** : And they go, "It's all about emotions". And they miss that it's about God. [00:44:19.10]

So a lot of times we find that the feminine side of the soul is there trying to bully the masculine side of the soul into feeling an emotion. But in reality, the masculine side of the soul is going to the feminine side of the soul, "Hang on a sec, do you even believe God exists yet?" And if she's honest with herself, she goes, "No, I don't really trust God yet, so I mustn't really believe God exists or that God is loving." [00:44:48.24]

**Mary** : And the cool thing is that this is the most beautiful important process you're going to go through in your whole soul's existence. So it's okay if at the beginning the 'no idea' pile is racked high and there is nothing in the 'for sure' pile. [00:45:00.28]

Don't be scared of that.

**Mary** : Every time something moves across to the 'for sure' pile, it's a precious moment in the history of your soul. Don't try and fake it. Just let it happen. And let yourself be vulnerable with yourself and with God, like, "Hey, I don't know you but I don't know what's going on. This is all a big jungle I'm in here. And I know there's emotions that I think might be unloving but I'm not sure yet." And allow this process that AJ is going to explain a bit more to happen, recognising that every time there's just one more sheet of paper on the sure pile, it's precious. You'll never lose that and it's going to stay with you for the life of your entire soul, which goes on long beyond this earthly plane. It's like a cool adventure. A lot of us feel really pressured, like, "Oh God, emotions, path, got to do it," when really, if we see this as a voyage of discovery that we're starting in the nursery of our soul, it's pretty exciting. [00:46:03.00]

For me it's an everlasting voyage. It's not something that has a goal at the end of it, in the sense that I'm just getting closer to God, closer to God, closer to God of what I know for certain. [00:46:17.16]

**Mary** : But there are still things in the 'no idea' pile. [00:46:19.22]

Yep. And there are a lot of things about God Herself that are still in that 'no idea' pile for me. The key is to not judge it. Now the things that are in that pile for me about God may be quite a lot less than the things in that pile for you about God. But the key is not judge where we are at either. We want to assist each other to come to see the truth. And we want to do it in such as way that is both logical and feeling at the same time, not just illogical but feeling, or logic only and no feeling. We want to do it in a way that embraces both. Because, it's only when you feel the truth as certainty that it actually changes your life. That's the only time. You can think anything; it's not going to change your life until you feel it as a certainty.

5. How to discover the truth about God

So now what we want to do is to focus on the truth about God. Because, if we think about it logically, God knows all truth. So it would make sense from a logical perspective that if there is a God, then that God would be the creator of all things, and as the creator of all things, would then know all truth. And it would then make sense that if I could have a personal relationship with that God, I will discover truth far more rapidly than I would using any other form of experimentation. [00:48:09.27]

When most of us experiment, we use the scientific methods of experimenting, such as, "Okay, what I'm going to do is I'll set up an experiment to test whether an atom exists." Now I might have to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars setting up this experiment to test whether an atom exists and how the atom exits. And I do a series of experiments and really what I'm trying to do is to prove how it doesn't exist. So the scientific method is about proving the non-existence and then what's left must be true. That's often what happens. [00:48:49.00]

5.1. Determining whether God exists

Now to me, my focus is the opposite way of that. The first question I needed to resolve was whether God existed. Because if I resolved the God existence question, then it would make sense that if God exists I can now start discovering things about that God. And then hopefully if God exists, that I can also develop some kind of personal relationship with God and find out through that relationship all the other things that exist, whatever they might be. [00:49:21.17]

So to me the question of the truth about God is the most important question that you could ever ask yourself or that you can ever discover. And my feelings now and from a long time ago are that all other questions you could ask almost have little significance without first answering this question. [00:49:54.03]

But what you see most of us do emotionally is this. Most of us go, "Well I've had a religious upbringing or a painful experience, and so I want to believe there is no God before I begin. That's what I want." Because how many of us want to believe in a God who is fear inspiring, who punishes people, who torments you in hell fire for the rest of your life and you're never going to get to heaven if you do one thing wrong? And who defines what's right and wrong anyway? So it all seems quite confusing, and in the end I go, "I'd just rather prefer to believe that God as an entity doesn't exist." [00:50:46.04]

And you can see how in the New Age movement, many then go into this feeling that God's an energy and not an entity. It helps get away from a lot of things because if God was an entity and we see all these unloving things happening around us, we go, "Well, God mustn't be very nice." We can't accept that God isn't very nice, so, "Let's accept that God is an energy instead. In other words, that God is an uncaring, unfeeling power house." That's what many of us would prefer God to be as well. And we get away with a lot of emotions that way. We get to deny a lot of emotions about resolving questions about God that way. [00:51:28.21]

So, once we start to focus on this question about whether God exists, all of the piles are all in 'no idea' pile. We've basically just got no idea. When somebody says, "Well, what's God look like?" "I've got no idea." When somebody says, "What does God feel like?" "I've got no idea either. I don't even know whether God has feelings." "Well, did God create everything?" "I've got no idea." "Is God real?" "I don't really know. I've never felt God, so I don't know whether God's real or not." So the truth is that when we begin in this process of discovery of God, we've really got no idea about most of it. [00:52:18.19]

**Mary** : Even if someone's up here going, "'No God is good, God is an entity, God loves you, it's all going to good," you still don't feel it in your heart. You go, "I don't know." [00:52:26.23]

I can get up here and say, "Look, I've felt God and met God and everything else", but it's really immaterial to you if you think about it because you haven't felt God or met God in the same way. So you're just going on my statement. And what's the point of that? That's not a personal experience where you know inside of your own heart for sure the truth. So while it might sound inspiring and might sound beautiful what I describe, you still can't really trust it until you go through some kind of personal experience about the whole thing. Does everyone get that? The personal experience has to be gone through rather than just trusting what anybody else says to you about any subject, but in particular about the subject of God. [00:53:17.02]

So what would you do now? What would you do given that almost every question you ask is in the 'no idea' pile about God? What would be your next course of action knowing that? [00:53:31.23]

**Participant** : To ask questions. [00:53:33.12]

To ask questions would be your next course of action, wouldn't it? [00:53:38.14]

5.2. Determining whether God is good or bad

**Mary** : So that immediately puts some things in the 'test', or 'not sure', pile, doesn't it? "I'll ask this guy Jesus, he reckons God's good." [00:53:48.18]

"I've got no idea whether God's good. In fact if I'm really honest with myself, if God does exist and if God's good, then why the hell do we have so much badness on the planet? To me that is an indication that God is bad, actually, not that God's good." So my first hypothesis might be, "God is bad, God is punishing."

And there's a whole group of consequent feelings that we'll have about that. So I have a whole list of things that I think are true. And I need to be honest with myself about this for this whole process to work. As soon as I get dishonest with myself, I'm going to get away from this process actually having any benefit to me. So I need to be honest with myself.

My feeling is that, "God is bad because there are 50 million children who die pretty much every day on this planet. 50 million children under five years of age die every day on this planet. Now if God cared about anything surely God would care about those children? So to me those children dying straight away means that God is bad, if God exists that is." And I need to be truthful about what I feel within myself. [00:55:30.23]

My mother has been in a few different religions in her life. The whole point about being in a religion is to worship God, is it not? In most cases that's what people think. But my mum still hasn't resolved the question whether God is good or not. In fact she still has a feeling in herself that God is bad. Would you go to church every week with that feeling? To be frank, there are millions of people on this planet who go to church every week with the feeling that God is bad. And they still go to church every week. Now, it's a very important question to resolve, isn't it? [00:56:16.17]

So "God is bad, God is punishing," they're the things I think I know about God. So I start testing it. How can I test the feeling that God is bad? On one hand I've got all this evidence that children die every day for no reason. And parents hurt children; you see that happening all the time. [00:56:44.11]

**Mary** : "My parents hurt me, where was God?" [00:56:45.25]

"My parents hurt me, where was God in that process?" Or, "I often screamed to God to not get hurt and I still got hurt."

Can you feel the energy in the room? [00:57:02.01]

**Mary** : Everyone's like, "Wow I never thought we're going to go to this place in this talk!" [00:57:07.00]

Can you see that many of us are not honest that we have some of those feelings in us? You've now got many spirits who feel that what I have just stated is true - that God is bad. Their energy is affecting yours and connecting with yours and before you know it the energy in the room goes really dark and gloomy about God. But we need to be honest. But we need to have more of an investigative nature with it. So at this point what a lot of people would do is say, "God is bad, God is punishing, I've got the proof. That's it, I don't want to know anything more." Now the problem with that is that if God does exist, God would therefore be infinite and if God is infinite then maybe what we know about God is finite. And maybe my perspective that God is bad has some problems associated with it. [00:58:06.09]

**Mary** : So in this process I have to recognise that I don't know everything yet and I need to be willing to ask questions. I have to go, "Okay, this is evidence I've got and it feels really crappy. I'd like to hold onto this belief, but what else is in my world? The sun just set; that was very beautiful. I even felt a bit moved to tears. It felt like a gift given to me. Where did that come from? If God's bad and God created everything, where did the sunset come from?" [00:58:38.03]

And then a butterfly goes past us. A really colourful one that just sits on a limb of a tree or on a flower next to us and we're just struck by the beauty of it and the delicacy of it. And we just go all of a sudden go, "Wow, I'm thinking God's bad but if God exists, God also created the butterfly, and I'm finding that quite beautiful. And the sunset is beautiful too." And I look at my wife's body and I go, "That's pretty beautiful. I find that really beautiful and attractive too. There's all this beauty around me that I'm starting to see." We need to be honest; there is all this beauty around us, isn't there?

So in amongst the world of chaos, and in particular when it comes to natural things, we see huge amounts of beauty. Where do you want to go when you go on a holiday? Do you want to go to middle of London where all the smoke stacks are going up with all of the pollution, or even better Tokyo on the wharf where there's all this pollution everywhere and you need a gas mask to breathe? Is that where you'd like to go for a holiday? No. Where do we want to go to? We go up into the mountains or down by the sea or some place with a lot of natural beauty, because we feel attracted to that beauty. [01:00:08.19]

So we go, "Okay, I feel that God is a punishing God because I look at all these bad things that are happening." But then there's a bit of a conundrum now, isn't there? "On one hand God is a punishing God or God's bad because all these bad things happening, but on the other hand I see these good things that happen every day and what am I attracted to? I'm attracted to a lot of those good things happening. A lot of it is in nature. A lot of it is not manmade but rather nature that I'm attracted to here." And I'm going, "Well okay, if it's the same God then how does that work? There all these children dying but at the same time there's all these beautiful things happening, including children being born." Now we're starting to scratch our head a bit. Because we need to become open to the fact that maybe we don't know the truth about God yet, even though we do think God is bad. And we need to investigate the fact that, "Alright God is bad and God is punishing, but now there's another thing that I think I know about God, and that is God likes beauty."

And in a way that's almost a conundrum. Because on one hand you've got what you would think is quite evil happening and on the other hand what you think is quite beautiful is happening at the same time. And so then I start making up some theories about that. You know what kind of theories to come up with then? Many of you have come up with these theories. [01:01:45.11]

**Mary** : "It's about the balance". [01:01:46.05]

"It's about the balance. God's about balance. There's got to be some evil with some good. There's got to be light and dark. There's got to be male-female even." They go there with that. We start trying to explain what God is. So we say, "Well God is bad and God likes beauty, so there needs to be good and evil for us to appreciate good." And we start coming up with all those theories. And while that sounds all like it's reflected in the universe in which we live, is it very logical? Like do you need bad in your life to appreciate the good times? Wouldn't you prefer to have just one series of good times with no bad? Wouldn't that be what you prefer? And then you're saying that God created bad so that you can appreciate the good. But you spend most of your life avoiding the bad and embracing the good, don't you? And so we start questioning even those things. And for myself, I keep either a written record of all this investigative process or at least an intellectual list, if you like, of the investigative process. That's what I do with every single thing I do. I even do that now by the way. [01:03:14.14]

**Mary** : So, let's say we get to where we have, "Okay I feel God is bad and punishing but I also think he likes beauty." Alright, so that's a conundrum. [01:03:23.10]

I still don't know either one of those for certain. Nothing is in the 'certain' pile yet. [01:03:25.18]

5.3. Determining whether God is an entity or an energy

**Mary** : What other question can I ask that might resolve that for me? "So if there is a God, is God an entity? Can I connect to God?" Because surely that will help me resolve these things. So then I might start a new hypothesis. "So if there is a God, would God be an entity or an energy? How am I going to discover this?" How would you discover this? [01:03:52.08]

Now it is true that I can say that you are energy. Is that not true? You have energy. But could I then go, "You are only energy"? Is energy the only thing you are? Don't you have more than energy? Don't you have feelings and emotions? Don't you have passions and desires? Don't you have thoughts? And while all those things may consist of certain types of energy, they're all very, very different for each person, aren't they? So I'm starting to go, "Okay, this is very interesting too. What is this telling me about God?" And I can start writing down the things that I'm starting to discover now. Still the things that I think I know or that I am testing. [01:04:42.13]

So I need to test, "Maybe God has energy, but God is not just energy." Just like you have energy but you are not just energy. You are more than just a piece of energy, more than some atoms flying around, aren't you? Because, for some reason when I walk past, your atoms don't all of a sudden join onto my atoms. And my atoms look different to Mary's atoms and I wonder what's going on. Like, the coalescence of those atoms into a being looks very, very different and everyone says, "Oh yeah, that's genetic." But if we were just energy, I'd be walking past Mary and if I've got a lot of energy, you'd think that part of her body would join onto mine because we're made of energy and energy can swap and be attracted to different things. So why is it that when I walk past Mary I don't lose a part of my body in the process? Now don't you be rude about that. And then as I walk past, I still retain my sense of being, my sense of self. And she's still retained her sense of self. And I go, "Okay, we seem to have some kind of way of keeping our energy in a place that makes sense." In other words, a way that joins the energy into being an entity that makes me, me. And Mary seems to have a way of keeping her energy together that makes her Mary. And she seems to be unique to many of you. Like Lena over there on the camera, she doesn't look much like Mary; aside from the fact that she's got the basic same features, as she's female. But aside from that, there's quite a lot of difference between the two, in terms of character, nature, size, everything. [01:06:44.20]

**Mary** : And I seem to be able to know that I'm different from Lena. And I get to know Lena and I can get to know me. And we have a sequential life that we can remember and recall and think about. [01:06:57.25]

And I know I've experienced my life and I know I haven't experienced what you've experienced, because that's being your life. And I don't walk past you, and I go, "Oh yeah, he or she has got that thought happening right now." I don't then think it's my thought, because I can know the separation between those two thoughts and I can know the separation between the two actions. [01:07:22.26]

And we can start applying all this; this opens me up to another investigation about God. What if God is an entity rather than an energy? What indications are there that God's an entity rather than an energy? What things in the universe would seem to support the proof that God is an entity? Does anyone have an idea what kind of things might support that God is an entity? [01:07:53.23]

**Participant** : Us

Well, yes. Aren't we the biggest proof? Like, the fact that you and I or Mary and I are seen to be separate in some way. And, probably less so for Mary and I, in the sense that because there are certain things happening that I can feel with Mary and I. But I know Mary and I are very, very different to any of you in the audience. When I say different, I don't mean bad. We have a feeling that we are different person. I don't walk past you and go, "Oh, all of a sudden I'm Igor! I've had Igor's life now and I've had Igor's experience." I might be able to learn his experience and I might be able to see it in his soul, but I still know myself to be a different person than Igor. [01:08:42.09]

**Mary** : And how do you do that?

In terms of seeing or knowing?

**Mary** : No. How do you learn Igor's life? You have a relationship with Igor. [01:08:49.09]

I have a relationship with Igor! And I ask him questions. And later on actually, the more developed I become, I actually notice myself starting to actually see Igor's soul and feel what's happening in Igor's life and I can actually walk past Igor and actually tell him what's happening in his life. But I still know it's Igor's life. It's not mine. I can still feel that. [01:09:10.27]

5.4. Determining if we can have a relationship with God

**Mary** : So we might learn about God or hypothesise that God might be an entity that we might learn to know through a relationship. [01:09:18.02]

Yeah. So what we do to discover that? To test that theory? [01:09:25.14]

**Participant** : Start talking to God. [01:09:27.08]

Yeah. What would you do to test his theory with a person? You'd go up to the person and say, "Sit down, I want to see whether you're the same as I am." [01:09:37.28]

**Mary** : "Do you like chocolate?"

"Do you like chocolate?"

**Mary** : "Yes."

"Yes."

**Mary** : "Do you like broccoli?"

"No. You like broccoli!" So we start seeing the differences, but then we even start talking about the emotion. So, the feelings we've had, the experiences we've had in our life. "Did you have this experience when you were a child?" "No. I did." "What about that experience?" "No, I didn't have that but you did." And so we start seeing ourselves as separate entities, but we're starting to enter a communicative relationship with the person, are we not? So if I were now experimenting with this in a sincere way I would go, "Okay, if God is an entity, it would make sense that I could talk to God. And it would make sense that somehow I can hear God even though I'm not really sure how that will occur." Now I can experiment with all of that. I could take actions. What kind of experiments might I choose to do? [01:10:36.04]

**Participant** : I was just going say that when you've got a relationship with the person and you say, "How are you?" you're not cut off from your emotions. There's a softness to actually receiving how they feel. [01:10:53.02]

Exactly!

**Participant** : So I remember when I was little, when I started talking to God I could actually feel, it feels so good, just the fact that there this interaction between me and this being. So it would feel like a warm, beautiful feeling that I was actually feeling connection with. [01:11:11.05]

Yeah. And so we can see this again from another hypothesis and that is, "When I interact with you, if I am blocked to any emotion whatsoever, then we just have an intellectual connection which we both walk away from feeling like...?" [01:11:26.28]

**Participant** : Superficial and dry.

Exactly! We don't feel fulfilled. We don't feel any sense of personal and emotional fulfilment in a relationship like that. So we can then go, "Okay, well perhaps God's the same. Perhaps God is similar to us in the sense that we can't have a fulfilling relationship if we try to just do it intellectually, we have to have feelings involved." So I can experiment with that. I could start actually spending time by myself seeing whether I can feel God or feel God's answers to me. So I can just experiment with that. I could talk to God and when I talk to God have a feeling that goes with it. So in other words it's not some bland thing anymore where I just intellectually say, "Hail Mary Mother of God. Hail Mary Mother of God" and so forth. Not like we were taught when we were younger. But now what I've got going on is a feeling with God. "If you exist I really feel like I want to know you as a feeling." [01:12:30.23]

**Mary** : So some of us might even start with, "You know what, God, I've really got the shits, you're bad and that's my feeling." [01:12:37.05]

"And that's my feeling. Now can you show me something firstly to prove to me that you're not bad? But also, I'm still going to talk with you because I still want to know whether I'm right or not", because at this point I don't know whether I'm still right, do I? It's only when I'm sure that I'm going to know whether I'm right or not. And that's also going to be something that we feel as a truth with complete certainty within us. And by the way, once it gets into the 'sure' pile, you'll be life and death on the issue. In other words, you'd be willing to die for that particular truth, not out of anger or fear, but just because you know it's the truth and that's it. And nobody would be able to shake you in that place. [01:13:31.00]

5.5. Determining if God cares for us

**Participant** : I've talked to God a lot, but I don't feel like I've been talked back to. So am I blocking God? [01:13:42.02]

Well see that's another question we need to put in the 'not sure' pile. So if I'm talking to God a lot and I'm not getting any answers, either God doesn't exist or I'm not hearing Her. It can only be one of the two things really, can't it? Now if I feel that there's proof enough around my universe to show to me that God must exist then the second option must be the truth; that I'm not hearing her. Why am I not hearing her? Then we start feeling, "Well all right, let's go for the feelings side of things again." When I'm talking with a person, if I'm just talking from my head to their head, I'm not really feeling them either, am I? Like, I sit down with a person and I've got to question them, "How do you feel about this? How you feel about that?" and even if I am questioning them, a lot of the times I'm not feeling it from them. I'm not feeling a rapport with them in any way. I'm not connecting. [01:14:39.06]

**Mary** : Yeah. And if I'm also saying to them, "Yeah, I'm fine, I'm really good. I've got a bit of stuff going on but I feel great." [01:14:45.21]

Which is not true.

**Mary** : If it was the worst week of my life, then are they going to really feel me? Because I'm not creating the openness there, am I? I'm not going, "I can hardly tell you how bad it's been." [01:15:04.20]

And then this person goes, "I don't want to hear how Mary's been for the week. See you later." [01:15:11.27]

**Participant** : I just realised when you said that, I actually feel like why would God care if I've had a bad week?

Okay. So the real feeling in Elvira at the moment is actually, "God doesn't care for me. How can God care for me? Why would God even want to care for me? Like, I'm just this little ant anyway. Like, how many billions of people are on the planet? Nearly 7 billion people on the planet at the moment and what you're telling me is that God actually wants to have a relationship with me?" [01:15:41.02]

**Mary** : "How is that even possible?"

"How is that even possible for a start? But secondly, if it is possible, I'm just this little ant. I'm nothing really." Many of us have been taught we're nothing from our childhood, and so we feel like nothing, so God must see us as nothing too. So what we do is we put that in that 'maybe' pile. Be honest and put it in the 'maybe' pile. "I haven't yet tested the truth about it, but from my experience in my life that's what it seems. It seems that God can't care about me. That's what it seems like." [01:16:20.15]

So for many of us what we've been doing is we've been talking to God, talking to God, talking to God. But actually we have a lot of these emotions about God that we're not being honest about. Can you see that? Some of us have emotions that, "I don't know whether God exists." Some of us have emotions that, "If God does exist, he doesn't care about me." Or, "If God exists he's only a male." How many of you ladies feel that? We have a lot of belief systems about God that seem to be true because of the life experience we've had. For yourself, Elvira, there is a definite feeling in you that, "God can't care about me. You look at my life. It doesn't feel like I'm being cared for by God in my life." [01:17:12.15]

**Participant** : And then I get all conflicted because I think, "Alright, I'm whinging to God, and okay I've got things to whinge about, but I'm not somewhere in a slum in India and I'm not hungry." [01:17:34.18]

Yeah mum and dad pulled out that card early in your life, didn't they? They handed you the card, "You've got a whole plate of food in front of you, there's a lot of people in the world that don't have a whole plate of food in front, you eat it." That's one of the cards that gets handed to us very early in life. In other words, "You're not allowed to have a bad feeling and you're not allowed to make your choice because I'm telling you other people have got it worse than you have." And this is a very early card that most parents play on their children in order to manipulate them into doing what the parent wants. So while I agree that that has been an experience in your life, we're still not certain that that's how God is with people. But it is a feeling we have. Now, be honest with your feelings with God. God loves your honesty. [01:18:30.15]

5.6. Experimenting with our relationship with God

Now when you think about it, if we don't even know that we can test that. What we can do is we can say, "Alright, for a whole month I'm going to falsify every feeling that I have with God and see whether I can feel God in that process." Now you could even experiment with that with your neighbour. So they say, "How are you?" and you say, "I'm fantastic," so you falsify every feeling and see how good the interaction is. So you can experiment with a neighbour and find, "Yeah, that didn't work very well." You might be in a relationship with someone or a friendship with somebody and every time they come and ask you how you feel you tell them the opposite of how you feel and see how that works. And then, the next month, do the opposite of that and ask yourself, "Well with that experiment did I feel connected or not?" You see we don't experiment enough, do we? [01:19:24.14]

**Mary** : We get to this point where we go, "Yep, my childhood was bad, I went to church but I didn't get it, and I didn't really like the people there. And then bad stuff started happening in my life and then I felt guilty about feeling about that, so clearly God is bad and punishing." And we end the experiment. Lots of people out there have definitely done that, haven't they? And we don't keep questioning, asking, "What do I know for sure?" [01:19:49.12]

So for yourself Elvira, often what you do is you have these feelings about God that you're almost afraid to have, like the feeling that, "Maybe God doesn't care about me. But I can't feel that feeling because that disconnects me." But it's a feeling you have inside. So you need to feel that feeling inside. [01:20:10.28]

**Mary** : Has anyone done the experiment where they just raged at God and felt like, "This is not fair! You've totally abandoned me and I don't want to do this anyway!" And then suddenly, "Oh, there's God"? [01:20:22.07]

"I can feel a bit of God's love coming. Oh, okay. So you do exist and you heard that one at least." [01:20:29.05]

**Mary** : "But you seem okay with that."

**Participant** : I feel like if I tell the truth about my true emotions, people run away. [01:20:41.15]

Many do.

**Participant** : It's just like, "Oh, I do not want to know you. I do not want to connect with you," and then I just feel rejected.

Okay. So now the question we've got to ask is, "Is God like that?"

**Participant** : I feel like he is because I'm so angry at God.

I agree. I agree you feel like He is. But can you see that there is a possibility, and this is why it's still in this 'maybe' pile, that you're only feeling like that because of your experience in your life, and you're actually imposing your experience of your life upon God? So this is another thing I'd write down, "Okay, at the moment I feel God just doesn't want to listen to any negative emotion I have." So I write that down. [01:21:22.10]

**Mary** : "I've got to be a good girl and then God will love me."

Yeah. "The only time God loves me is when I'm a good girl and I make sure everything is nice and fluffy and warm and lovely." [01:21:30.21]

**Participant** : How do you know how to do that if you don't even know what a good girl is?

Exactly, that's another question that I need to resolve in this 'maybe' pile.

5.7. Embracing the process of asking questions about God

Can you see how many questions we have? This is why most people don't embrace the process, because initially when we start opening this process up of being questioning, we've just got thousands of questions. And we look at the pile of questions and we go, "Gee whiz, how am I ever going to resolve that list of questions?" And so what we do? We get all those questions and we roll them all up, we put them to one side and say, "I'll get on with life and if one of those questions comes up at some point in the future I'll have a look at it." That's what we do. But when you're dedicated to resolving these questions you'll find you'll get them resolved very, very rapidly. [01:22:17.14]

**Mary** : And that's what I was going to say. Once we start this process of going, "Okay, maybe God's an entity and maybe it's the honesty and the emotional openness that creates the connection between me and God," then things can move really rapidly. [01:22:31.11]

So I can now start being honest with God. "Look God, to be frank, I think you created a bit of a crap universe actually, and the laws that you've made are crap too, if they're laws at all. Because it feels to me like there's a lot of anarchy and no law. But if there are any laws at all why don't you give us a book or something?" Then some religious person comes along and says, "He gave you the Bible." "What? The Bible's full of crap. I can't even read the Bible without it contradicting itself halfway through. And in the first half of the Bible it talks about God being a punishing God, which is exactly what I am saying - God is. So how can you say God's a loving God on one hand but a punishing God on the other hand? That doesn't make any sense to me. God's either one or the other, surely? Oh, hang on a sec. No we talked about this yin and yang thing didn't we? That's right, where evil and good have to co-exist. Is that what you're telling me? No, no, no. Okay, so you're telling me God's always good, but we've always got bad on the Earth. Now how did that all happen?" And we don't resolve those questions. If we're honest with ourselves, we actually get a list of very, very good questions we need to resolve. [01:23:36.09]

**Mary** : And a lot of us have been told, "No, you just have to believe this. You just have to know that God exists. Can't you know that God is good? Come on! If you knew God, you would know God is good." And there's a lot of condescension and we're guilted into feeling that we can't have those feelings. "It makes me seem like I'm ungrateful and there's something obviously very wrong with me that I don't know that God is good." And we get shamed into not exploring this whole beautiful process, which remember I said is the most important journey of your entire soul. It all gets shut down because we feel guilt. We feel ashamed or we feel like, "Oh, I'm not good enough. I'm just one in the back of the group. Everyone's crying and praying and I just kind of pretend that I'm there." [01:24:18.29]

And then I have this situation happen where I asked mummy a series of questions of, "Mummy, if God's always good, then why do people die?" And you know what happened when many of you asked that question, if you were ever brave enough to ask a parent who is going to church? You get a little tap across the face sometimes or, "How dare you say God's bad." And you get the anger-based response to shut you down, rather than it being an honest question that you need to ask. And so what happens with our questions about God is we're taught not to ask them. Can you see that? You think how much in your own life you've been taught not to ask questions that need to be asked about God. [01:25:12.02]

**Mary** : Or you absorbed the feeling from your parents that you'll never resolve that, so just forget about it. You can't ever know.

And many parents get upset because they personally have not resolved the question and they're just as confused and angry about the resolution of that question as you often are, or even more so. And so when you ask the question they just respond in rage. Like, "How dare you even ask that question?" Or they go down this track of trying to deny the process of even answering the question. Because many parents don't want to say, "Look darling, I've got no idea, but it's a wonderful question and perhaps we should investigate it more thoroughly." Because many of us feel that these questions are unresolvable. And since they are unresolvable, what's the point of asking them? And so what we do is we close down this whole field of investigation about God. It all gets shut down. We investigate science, we investigate cultures, religious formats on Earth and we investigate religion, but we don't actually investigate God. Even when we investigate religion, we're not investigating God. Because we're investigating the religious interpretation of what God is. So, we're still shut down quite a lot from investigating God. [01:26:36.26]

**Participant** : I just wanted to say, once you ask the question and you get an answer back, the first answer back feels really liberating. And it makes it really exciting to ask more questions. [01:26:53.09]

I agree.

**Participant** : And so the more you ask, if you have that real longing, it's like ...

Wonderful!

**Participant** : Yeah. And it makes it easier to ask more questions.

Yeah. It was Adele, wasn't it?

**Participant** : Yes.

Yep. Now, Adele, I put to you though; the answers that come back could also be coming from an alternative source. [01:27:13.25]

**Participant** : Yes. They could.

So, now we've got this additional question. Was that wonderful answer I just got from God or was it just from a person in another dimension that I can't see that I think is God? [01:27:28.08]

**Participant** : Yes. And you have to trust by asking more questions.

Exactly! You've got to keep asking questions.

**Mary** : That is the beautiful thing. Everyone just goes, "Oh my gosh, there's too many questions." Some of you feel like, "No way, I can't do this, there are so many questions." But that's because there's no wonder in this process. If we just go into it going, "Okay, wow, I think I've made the discovery. I think something that's in the 'maybe' pile could be going over here to the 'sure' pile." But I just have to keep asking questions, and then we can stay invigorated by this process. If get really fearful and I go, "No, I have to know now, I can't keep asking all this questions, it's taxing," then we're going to get really tired. But the more you develop in the process, the more trust you have in it. [01:28:18.29]

6. Truth is only certain once we have experienced it

So every single truth that I've ever resolved personally, about God and the universe and all of those other things have been resolved through this process for me. But I need to say a bit about the 'sure' pile. It's not just what you feel and know as the Truth, because there is this other aspect to the truth actually entering you; and that is, it has to actually be an experience. [01:28:53.09]

So in other words, I can postulate to you theoretically that we can walk through that brick wall there. That brick wall is made of atoms. My body is made of atoms. Is that not true? Well, that's another theory that I'm presenting to you. But if that's the case, and if we're made of matter, then it would make sense that if I had control over my matter, I could somehow align that matter and I could physically walk through that brick wall. [01:29:35.28]

**Mary** : And you might be even able to explain all the science of that to us. So you could tell us exactly how you've discovered this new truth and it's all going to work. And so you can stand up here for three hours and tell us how you are certain that you can walk through the wall. [01:29:51.02]

And then when I walk through that wall, now all of that fact, although being presented to you as fact becomes proven by the experience, does it not? And it's only by the experience that what we feel and know as truth really becomes truth. So there are many people on the planet and in the spirit world who think they know the truth, they think they feel the truth in a certain way, and yet they have not had the experience, and so therefore they cannot still say for certain. [01:30:30.04]

**Mary** : So it's like being there up there going, "Yes I know the science for sure. I know that you're atoms, the wall is atoms, and it's possible to walk through it. I can explain it to you, it is a sure thing." But they've never actually done it, so they haven't had the experience. And that's the difference. They can't say it's in the 'sure' pile but unless they've done it. [01:30:54.04]

It's not in the 'sure' pile yet. Until you have personally done it, you will never have anything in the 'sure' pile. And it's very important that we're honest with ourselves that it's yet to personally happen. So I can talk to you about God till I'm blue in the face and I can tell you that God will give you Her Love if you long for Her Love and talk about how to long for Her Love and all those kind of things, but until that personally happens for you and you recognise it as the truth in the experience, it will never become a fact. And you can talk about it all you like to another person and it's still not a fact. And it's still never going to be a fact until you've had the personal experience of it happening to you. It's the same as with the Law of Attraction and all the other laws of God. Exactly the same principles apply. [01:31:46.15]

Now instead of judging the other person's experience, because every experience has to be a personal experience, we just need to recognise, "Okay, I have yet to have that experience. And since I'm yet to have that experience, I can't say for certain whether that thing is true or not true." However, I can also go through a whole set of experiences and understand everything that's happening about certain things and then I know for certain that thing is true. And I know for certain what is being said is true. And lot of the things that I'm presenting to yourself as truth can only be presented because I have personally had the experience of that truth. That's the only reason why I'm very definite about what I'm saying to you as truth. Many times you'll ask me a question and sometimes I'll go, "I don't know." [01:32:38.07]

A child put up her hand in a recent presentation and asked me, "Who created God?" And I said, "I don't know" because I've not personally had that experience of knowing that particular truth, so I can't answer that truth. And I actually said to her, "I don't know anybody else who knows that either." [01:33:02.15]

**Mary** : But you said, "It's a good question."

It's a wonderful question, that's still in the, "All the Things I don't know" box. And there are quite a lot of things in that box still.

7. Reasons why we don't enjoy the discovery process

What you'll find is that God has created this beautiful universe where there's so much in the 'no idea' pile that you'll spend a lot of your life enjoying the discovery of it. The only reason why we don't enjoy the discovery is that we were taught not to enjoy discovery by our parents. [01:33:33.27]

**Mary** : And not to enjoy this state of, "I don't know."

Not to enjoy that state, but not only that, we were taught that if we didn't know something we were stupid, dumb, or an idiot. There is a lot of emotional attachment to us not knowing things. And then when we got to this 'maybe' phase and we started to experiment, by definition when you experiment you are going to make a mistake. How do parents feel about mistakes? Like, you're a little child and you pick up a glass. But it's mum's precious glass and she's only got six of them. They got them when she got married and she is so attached to them because they were a special gift by somebody. And all of a sudden it gets fumbled and bang on the ground. And what happens? It was a mistake for me, but what happens? Now you get this barrage of very negative emotions from your mother. She might even scream at you and say, "Why did you do that?" and you get this terrible barrage of emotions. [01:34:39.29]

**Mary** : And little you just goes, "Oh, I was just testing the theory."

So there is little you, who's down here, looking up at this ogre who's yelling and screaming at you. What do you do now? What have you just learnt about the mistake? [01:34:56.00]

**Mary** : Don't test the theory unless you sure.

You might just have been testing the theory, "Will the glass bounce?"

**Mary** : Or the theory, "I can use my hand like mum does?"

Yeah. And yet as soon as we test a lot of these theories as a child we automatically get punished and therefore we become so afraid of even making mistakes. I put to you that many of you are very afraid of making mistakes in your life. [01:35:24.25]

**Mary** : And the key for this whole process to work is that you have to have a vital ingredient. And it's the ingredient that will actually speed up your discoveries. Desire. [01:35:36.19]

And fear of making mistake doesn't help desire very much, does it? If you're so afraid that you're going to make a mistake in every move you make, how are you ever going to follow a desire you have? [01:35:52.03]

**Mary** : And lots of people who have come to talks in the past have come and gone, "Wow, this is fascinating but, wow, what if this is a mistake?" [01:36:00.16]

"What if it's wrong?"

**Mary** : "What if it's wrong?" They have no trust in themselves. They could go, "Well if it's wrong then I'll just go back to the drawing board." There's so much fear that shuts down this huge explorative process. [01:36:14.09]

Maybe it's still in your, 'I don't know' category. Or maybe it's in your, 'No Idea' category. Just the fear of the potentiality of making a mistake that can be judged by others and you'll feel that. And you'll go, "Wow, that's pretty big actually." That can be so manipulative in terms of this process of experimenting. See, the beauty of what Mary and I are trying to create is that we're trying to have no strings attached to everything. So you start to learn that you can experiment without any form of punishment. In other words, you can on the one hand go, "Yeah, I can go along to the talk and listen," and then three months later go, "I don't believe that." And yet AJ still comes up and gives you a hug every time he sees you, or shakes your hand and doesn't treat you badly. So you know that even if you totally disagree with everything I'm saying to you, you're still not going to be ostracised or criticised by myself.

7.1. God created us to experiment

And the reason why is, I feel God does not ostracise and criticise anybody who's in an experimenting state. She wants you to experiment in Her Universe. She created you to experiment. [01:37:56.15]

**Mary** : If you look at a child, the most pristine form of our self, what are they doing? They're asking questions, they want to learn, they want to experiment. That's their way of doing. And it's not just an intellectual thing. They're doing it with their whole body all of the time, and their emotions and they're stepping right into that experience. And oops, they fell off the chair. [01:38:16.15]

And they're not even afraid. They fall off the chair, bash their head, got a great big lump coming up and the next moment, they're trying to get back on the chair again. They don't give up just because they've had a little bit of pain in the process. It's only when they were punished for the process that now they have huge amounts of resistance. Now, this is something we need to be aware of, that if there is a God, God is not going to punish you for experimenting in a universe that's full of experiments. So, God wants you to experiment with different things, and the key is to feel as you experiment. And if you feel while you experiment at this point you may find a 'maybe'. So, you can see how almost all of our life is either in 'I've got no idea' or 'maybe' categories. And it's only when we know and feel the truth and we have the personal experience that it will become a solid fact.

Now, many people throughout all of your life have told you that there is this fact and there's this fact and there's this fact. You grew up actually reading history books where so-called facts that are not actually true were presented. They're just the accepted societal fact, but not actual fact. And then there's a whole series of facts about history for example that were never presented. There's all this truth that nobody has ever discovered about, for example the truth of our nation. How many of us get taught in our childhood at school about the genocide of the Aboriginal race in Tasmania, for example? [01:40:04.27]

**Mary** : Or the stolen generation. They might teach that at school now but...

How many of us were taught that when we were young? The reason why is that society has certain things they don't want to accept as facts, even when they did happen. Because there are a lot of emotions connected. So, while we keep everything we possibly can either in the 'no idea' or the 'maybe' piles, it's only through the knowing and feeling of the experience that it'll become sure. Now, a lot of people become what you call philosophisers, where they live in this area between 'no idea' and 'maybe', never wanting anything to become certain. [01:40:41.16]

**Mary** : They love this area between 'no idea' and 'maybe'. They create a glowing facade that this is a wonderful place to be. [01:40:49.03]

And it is a wonderful place to be, in a place of experiment.

**Mary** : But to stay there.

But at some point, something must become known as a fact for you to actually embrace a happy life and for you to actually embrace knowledge. And in fact if that hadn't happened in your own history, many of you who flew here today for today's meeting would never have been able to fly. Because of somebody knowing and feeling and then experiencing the truth of flight, for example. That would never have occurred. [01:41:26.24]

**Mary** : Because this whole process isn't one of indecision. It's not like, "Oh, so many questions. I don't know, I don't know. Oh, ask another question. I don't know." [01:41:33.19]

And it's not a process of philosophising, where I'm just coming up with idea after idea after idea. [01:41:38.05]

**Mary** : And I think, "That's a beautiful idea," and I just think about the aspects of that idea. [01:41:40.14]

And I'm only just enjoying the discussion of it. But rather we want to at some point know for sure whether what we're discussing is true. Don't you? Don't you want some surety at some point about whether it being true or not. [01:41:54.16]

**Mary** : So I can love this process but I really want this 'sure' pile. I want it a lot. And that's the desire that will pull me through it. When you harness this desire, and you go, "Actually, I think I want to try out what they're saying. I'm just going to just start with one." And when you really desire it, watch how quickly you start to get answers or get more information. Things that you have might not have thought about God for 20 years in a really sincere way, and then you go, "No, I really want some more information on this." You step into a whole other interaction and bam, someone you don't even know, on the bus, is going, "Have you thought about God?" And you're like, "Wow, okay. I've attracted something else." Or you pick up a book in the doctor's waiting room and go, "Wow, I'm feeling that more." And suddenly you're in this process that was ignited by your desire for truth. But you had to have the true desire. [01:42:52.29]

You know the Wright Brothers, who came up with the first documented successful flying machine? The only difference between myself and them is that I've focused on the truth about God first, whereas they focused on the truth about flight first. But basically, we used exactly the same principles. Do you see that? [01:43:27.00]

**Mary** : And you know the Wright Brothers weren't very intellectual about this whole flight thing. They used their brains, they were quite logical, but I bet they didn't sit back and go, "You know, maybe we should work on that plane." There was a lot of feeling. [01:43:42.10]

Desire and passion.

**Mary** : Desire. Passion. Emotionally engaged. When it crashed, they felt it.

And not only that, whenever they read every book that said flight is not possible, did they go, "Yeah, we might as well give this up because they say flight is not possible." Did they do that? No. And so whenever you read a book that says, "You should give up this investigation of God," or, "God's not real," that's not a reason to give up the investigation. It's just following somebody else's opinion. [01:44:12.06]

So how does everyone feel about that process? Does it make logical sense to you?

**Mary** : Because that's the other thing. God is logical. With all of this emotional stuff, there is logic to what we say. We don't just say, "Just feel everything, no matter what, where ever you are. It's okay to bash up on your partner as well. You're angry, feel it." No, there's a logical sequence to the way God has designed this whole process of connection. Even though we're in our emotion, there's always logic. And love is a very logical thing. [01:44:47.17]

8. Using experimentation to discover other truths

And you could even replace the word God for this process of discovery with the word love. So, what's the truth about love? [01:44:59.23]

**Mary** : Love just puts up with everything?

Love's painful, hey?

**Mary** : Yeah.

Love hurts. All of us know that. Is that a truth? That's what we all think we know, but is that a truth? [01:45:13.01]

8.1. The example of Jesus' resurrection

**Participant** : I'm curious about the process of when you're resurrected. In that process you showed that there was no death, that there was an after-life and you returned. The witnesses of that experience were all of a sudden shown that it is possible. [01:45:36.08]

Yep.

**Participant** : And I want to know, would that have seeped into their soul as a 'sure'. [01:45:41.15]

Yep.

**Participant** : Or did they write it off saying, "But that's the Son of God"? [01:45:44.10]

Well, they'd personally seen it.

**Participant** : So is that their experience or did they go, "That's the Son of God, that's Jesus and he's different"?

**Mary** : I can answer that.

Mary was there.

**Participant** : I didn't know if you remembered that.

**Mary** : Yep. Well, I would say there was a surety in my soul that, "Wow, you're not dead. So there's something beyond this existence." That was in my soul. But it didn't make me sure that after he was gone again I could still connect to him. So it didn't give me all the surety about the spirit world. [01:46:14.19]

The experience is not just even feeling it and seeing it. Rather it is, "It happened to me." [01:46:20.21]

**Mary** : Yes.

**Participant** : So that 'sure' pile is really....

It's really small for most of us.

**Participant** : To have things there is a great accomplishment. [01:46:29.06]

**Mary** : It is.

Yeah, it is.

**Mary** : It's a precious, precious thing to put one thing in that pile. And even to have this 'no idea' pile go down and the 'maybe' pile come up is amazing. Most people in their earthly life do not even... [01:46:43.03]

...investigate it at all.

**Mary** : But from a heart space.

My feelings are if you've got even one thing in this 'sure' pile, you're doing pretty well. [01:46:50.22]

**Participant** : Well, that's just how I was feeling. It's like even if I'd seen that, my immediate thought would've been, "But he's different, he's closer to God." I would write it off for myself as an excuse not to enter that. The curiosity would be, "Can that be possible for me even now?" [01:47:06.08]

Don't forget that I had told them that it could happen for them. So, for three years prior to that happening, I had told all of them, including Mary the most, that this was what was happening for me and it can happen for them too. [01:47:19.17]

**Participant** : But even in this day and age with us not physically being there we celebrate Easter and we go to church and we learn about Jesus and we don't go, "Can that be possible for me?" [01:47:28.18]

Yep.

**Participant** : Right now in this time, this individual soul. [01:47:32.25]

Exactly!

**Participant** : This returning and experiencing an afterlife. [01:47:35.22]

8.2. Experimenting with Divine Truth teachings

Yeah. And one of the reasons why myself and Mary and others returned was that we want to demonstrate to you the changes that occur throughout our life. So as you see our lives blossom, if I could use that term, you'll see the changes in us. The changes once we become at-one with God, you'll see that change happen again, and what we'll be able to do after that point. And all of that will give you the personal faith that you can do it for yourself. Because we're saying to you, "You can." [01:48:05.06]

8.2.1. The example of Mary growing in love

**Participant** : Well, for me personally, seeing the shift in Mary from the very first DVD and over a year that I've been listening to her. [01:48:12.24]

**Mary** : Thank gosh I've shifted from there.

**Participant** : But for me personally, you have been the biggest inspiration, having that desire for God. The softness in you, the vulnerability in you, the confidence. Every single aspect of your soul just keeps shining. Even when I just look at your face on the computer I feel more love from you. And that's how I know that on a soul level that there's always a progression and evolution of your soul. [01:48:41.14]

Exactly!

**Mary** : Thanks, Laura.

And the interesting thing Laura too is that many of us have spent a lot of our time talking to people about the truths of what we're learning. And we don't yet really fully appreciate that one fact that you now appreciate with Mary. And that is, it's not been Mary talking about it that's necessarily convinced you anything, it's actually Mary changing that's caused conviction in you. [01:49:05.21]

**Participant** : It's actually been your emotion when AJ is doing the talking. Like in the beginning, I would feel your embarrassment and your sense of, "What am I doing here? I don't know what to say," always looking for reassurance. [01:49:22.03]

**Mary** : Don't forget there was anger in there. "Stop talking about that." There was a lot of yuckiness coming out of me. [01:49:28.01]

**Participant** : And now, you have your place. I don't know if it's a sure thing, but definitely feels that way to me that you have your place in your expression. So it's just through that, that I've got more faith. [01:49:41.01]

**Mary** : Thank you.

Yep. And that's the beauty of this process of personal discovery. It doesn't matter what I say to Mary, Mary is not going to have a personal experience until she goes through the whole process. So, it's actually impossible for me to convince any of you the truth of what I'm saying. All I can do is put it together to you as firstly a theory, then hopefully through my own life and through people's lives who follow it, it gets demonstrated to you as more fact and as a demonstration to you. And then it's a choice inside of you whether you want to embrace that or not. And then when you decide to embrace that, you'll start to have personal sureties as you go through that process. We don't expect everybody to just drop everything and say. "Yes, that's true", and off they go. That's not like that at all. And in fact, it's not ever been like that for both of us. So we would never expect that to be the same way for yourselves. This is the process that we've both had to actually go through with the discovery of every truth. And I'm still going through that process and Mary's still going through that process and every Celestial spirit we've talked to you about still goes through that exact same process. And eventually they become sure through the personal experience. [01:50:58.19]

**Mary** : Yeah. And I really treasure when people are just vulnerable about where they're at. We've been wanting to talk about getting to know God for a while, but what's sparked this idea to do this talk today was that at Easter time we were sitting around a table with three or four other couples, and one of the guys was very anxious and he just quietly said to us, "Look, I can't get into my emotions. I feel like I'm just really stuck." And both of us turned and said, "It's not about your emotions. This is about God". And he was sitting with his wife and another couple who were going, "You've got to do emotions. This is about emotions. You're not doing them. This is not going to work." [01:51:46.23]

"And you're the black sheep of our little group because you're not getting into your emotions," that kind of thing.

**Mary** : But it was so beautiful, just his willingness to be vulnerable. And then ironically we started talking about God and explaining this process and he started to tear up. He felt a connection then to what we were discussing. And I just thought it was precious that he opened the room in his belief of, "Look, it's all in the 'no idea' pile for me. I don't get it."

And we ended up discussing quite a few things that were totally relevant for everyone. Just like wouldn't you agree this talk is pretty relevant for all of us? It's beautiful when we can just be vulnerable about where we're at. God loves that too. [01:52:32.21]

**Participant** : It was interesting five days ago I was actually in my head about, "Oh, Law of Attraction is triggering this and that." And then I just stopped and I just asked God what is it really about and all of a sudden I saw some flower turning towards the sun. And I just cried for an hour because it made me realise it's just about my heart longing and feeling it and receiving the nourishment from God. [01:52:55.18]

Yep. And it's those personal experiences that help solidify your faith. Until that point in time that you've had the personal experience where you have some surety, there's not going to be much faith there. And instead of punishing yourself about it, you say, "I just don't have any faith yet." And that's another thing that's in this 'maybe' pile, "I don't understand faith yet." And that's okay - I'm allowed to be in that place. God's not going to punish you for being in that place. [01:53:23.20]

8.2.2. If there's any doubt about truth, it's still in the "maybe" category

**Participant** : When you first start to get a little bit of a knowing experience about a question, can that just continue to build through more experience? Because I'm just starting to wonder about how much of some of the things I've started to feel that I know would still be in the 'maybe' pile, just because of that wondering. [01:53:52.00]

**Mary** : I feel like for me, Di, there's a mini step pile in the middle between the 'maybe' and the 'sure' piles, where I go, "Okay, it doesn't really feel like a theory any more. I kind of really feel it's true. It would take a lot to sway me from this now. I've got enough evidence; I had many experiences." So it sits between the 'maybe' and 'sure' pile, but it's not quite sure. [01:54:15.20]

But when somebody criticises Mary for having that experience, then she goes into doubt. So that's proof that it's still really in the 'maybe' pile. You can have all the criticism in the world aimed at you, stuff coming at you from everybody on the planet, but once you've gone into the 'sure' category, from that moment on you don't sway. It's an interesting place because it's not a place of arrogance either. It's not a place of holding onto a belief just because you want to hold onto a belief. It's not like that at all. It's very different to that. It's a very humble place of knowing that you're definitely sure about this particular thing and nothing can sway you, but it's not because you're arrogant about it. [01:55:10.16]

**Mary** : It almost feels to be like a quiet knowledge; it's a surety that no one can take away from me. You don't all have to agree with me, I don't have to shout it from the rooftops, but it's just something I carry with me always. [01:55:22.23]

And in fact I put to you that if you do get upset with somebody else about them attacking your surety, then you're not sure. You're just not sure yet. Because the truth is that once you're perfectly sure, you have a solid sense inside of yourself that is okay with attack from others. [01:55:45.04]

9. What it is like to be at-one with God

**Participant** : Hi, AJ. My question is what is it like to be at-one with God?

9.1. Having no fear

It's a very good question. It's very hard to describe, but can we maybe give you some analogies that will help you understand. Firstly, at the moment, in course of a day, how many times do you act on a fear based thing? Where you're afraid of somebody's opinion or where you're afraid of what they'll do to you if you do something wrong? Do you find yourself doing that quite frequently? [01:56:26.17]

**Participant** : Not really.

Not really. So, everything you do in a course of a day is totally what you want to do that day? [01:56:33.20]

**Participant** : No. Not really.

So, once you're at-one with God, everything you did today would be exactly only what you wanted to do today. However, it would also be harmonious with love of every single person and every single creature around you. [01:56:53.00]

**Mary** : Including yourself.

Including yourself. Today.

**Participant** : There's a lot of freedom there.

Right.

**Mary** : It is; it's a very free state.

9.2. Loving others at all times

It's a very free state. So you imagine that every single moment today all you've ever done was do exactly what you've desired but also, without having to try, you were automatically loving in every single thing you did. You didn't have to think about it, you were just automatically loving. So that's partly what it's like to be at-one with God. [01:57:25.23]

Secondly, how many times in a course of a day, do you have a doubt about something? So you ask yourself a question and you don't really know the answer? Or you have doubts about your interactions with others where you go, "Oh, maybe I did the wrong thing there," or, '"Maybe they did the wrong thing with me." Well that never happens when you're at-one with God. [01:57:48.09]

Even when someone is yelling at you, you still don't feel that it's the wrong thing. So you still love them even when they're yelling at you. You actually have a feeling inside of you of love for them while they're yelling at you. Imagine that. Normally what happens when somebody's yelling at us, what do we do? We start getting defensive, we start shutting down. We maybe get a little bitter. Some of us want to run away because we're afraid. Others want to stay there and fight. And for some of us we might even want to have a punch up. That's how we feel in terms of response. But none of those feelings will come to you at all. You won't need to try. It'll just be automatic that none of those feelings come to you at all, with no trying at all. So you imagine you don't have to try to be loving, imagine that. Just that everything you did was automatically loving but you didn't have to try to do it. It was just all a smooth process where you just love anyway. What else can we describe there? [01:58:59.13]

9.3. Feeling constantly loved by God

**Mary** : Well, the biggest thing is that you feel in this constant love connection with God. So you're feeling connected to God and this amazing love. And you're open to receiving it. You're not feeling unworthy; you're not feeling like, "Oh, it's too much. It's overwhelming," or, "I don't deserve it'. You're just feeling love coming from God in a constant way. [01:59:22.25]

So in every single moment, you don't question that you're loved. [01:59:27.14]

**Mary** : You know it.

You know that you are.

**Mary** : You're having the experience.

So because you know that you are, when somebody treats you in an unloving manner, you don't bite their head off. Because you know you're loved by God. No matter how they treat you, it's not going to make any difference to what you know in this relationship you have with God. So they could treat you angrily, sad, they could try to shame you, they could talk about your past and all these darkened things we did in our past, they could try and physically hurt you, but you'll still know that you're loved by God in that moment. And you don't need to defend it or anything like that. You just feel that love in you. [02:00:08.06]

9.4. Feeling good about yourself

So how many of us in a course of a day will look in a mirror and go, "I'm not that happy with my reflection. I wish I looked a bit different. I wish I were a bit taller, I wish I were a bit slimmer", or whatever. You don't have any of those feelings either, ever. There's an automatic acceptance of everything that you are. And ironically, everything you are is the perfect person you could be anyway. So any weight you would have had by that stage, you would have lost. Any old age you have by that stage gets younger. All of these things happen. So all the things we're often critical of, for example the grey hair that appears, well that goes away. So you look in the mirror and you are the perfect example of what you can be. And so you're automatically not critical of anything that you see in the mirror either. So you imagine walking down the street, and you're not self-conscious at all. You're not worried about what anybody thinks of you. [02:01:07.03]

**Mary** : You feel like you totally love everyone. Everyone in the room, "Oh yeah I can feel they've got this. They've got these emotions coming out of them, they're not really loving themselves or not really loving me even, but I just love them so much." [02:01:18.01]

9.5. Speaking the truth at all times

Now one thing that's really challenging is another aspect. And this is, you will be truthful with everybody at every moment without fear. And you find that a little difficult at the moment. So, you imagine walking along the street, and because you just have a feeling, you know how sometimes you're walking along a street and another person looks at you and you look at them, and there's this sort of connection going on, and there's some reason why you need to talk but you don't really know, but because of different emotions we have we don't talk to them. We go, "Oh, sorry, don't look at them," and you walk past. Well those events, you don't do that anymore. You just go, "Howdy, how are you?" And if they open up in that process, you will engage automatically. You're not questioning their response to your love anymore. [02:02:13.26]

9.6. Being completely God reliant

**Mary** : And you're in a state of total trust of God's laws. Trusting that God will care for you. [02:02:19.16]

So you're not scared for your life, for your food, for your clothing, for your shelter, your existence. You don't plan ahead anymore. So you know how when we want to go overseas, what do we do? We get all these brochures; put them all over the floor or on the table. We start analysing would this be good, would that be good, what's my comfort levels and what do I need and all of these kinds of things? Very few of us just go, "I'm going tomorrow without a plan." [02:02:50.28]

**Mary** : "I've got the desire, let's go."

And unfortunately, with the life we have today, you need a passport, which means you have to plan something. But in the future when you're at-one with God, you won't even need a passport. Nobody can give you a passport, you can go everywhere on the planet where you want to. So how can anyone give you a passport? You won't need a passport. So you'll just go, "I feel like going to Tanzania today," and you're there. Because that was your desire and you'll go there, for sure. As soon as you have a desire you'll act upon it. [02:03:29.22]

So you'll be walking along the street and there's someone you're really attracted to, and if you're single, you'll go right up to her and go, "I'm really attracted to you." You might not touch her, but you'll go, "I'm really attracted to you." She goes, "What?" "I don't know. I can't explain it. I'm just really attracted to you." But you won't feel bad about what you've just said or the action that it's caused in her either. You'll just be truthful and honest in that interaction. [02:03:58.04]

9.7. Feeling others' emotions

Then another thing that will happen is you'll go up to a person and you can feel they have a certain injury. And their injury is that they'll do anything for you if you ask them. [02:04:17.13]

**Mary** : Whether they wanted to or not.

Whether they wanted to or not. And you go, "I can feel that injury. I do not want to ask this person anything." [02:04:25.14]

**Mary** : Why would you do that?

**Participant** : To allow them to feel the emotion.

Not just to allow them to feel the emotion.

**Mary** : Because my asking them would be helping them stay in an addiction. So I wouldn't. [02:04:36.24]

So I wouldn't do it.

**Mary** : I wouldn't want to support anyone in their addiction in things that I know that harm them, that cause them to not love themselves. I just couldn't do it. [02:04:45.00]

I just can't do it anymore. So I can't manipulate anybody into doing what I want them to do anymore. It's just automatically out of the question for me to do that. That's what happens when we become at-one with God. We don't manipulate people through their emotional injuries anymore. [02:05:04.03]

**Mary** : At the moment, most of us do that a lot of the time.

So you imagine. You're the guy in the house and you've worked all the day. The lady of the house stayed at home all day. You come home and there's no meal made. In that space, what would you do? You would automatically make the meal. You wouldn't even ask her to make the meal and you wouldn't imply to her that she's been lazy all day and, "Why hasn't she got off her big backside to do the meal?" You would never say those things because the feeling is not even in you to say it. The feeling in you is not even there. So these are all part of what it feels like to be at-one with God. Pretty nice place isn't it? [02:05:48.26]

9.8. Discovering the truth about at-onement

And that's another thing we can experiment with, at-onement.

"Now AJ just said a whole series of things that he feels are the truth about the at-onement condition. How am I going to work out whether it is true or not?" It's the same process. "At the moment I've got no idea whether that's true. It sounds fantastic but I don't know whether it's true. It could be just somebody's pipe dream." Quite often I'm accused of being an optimist or an idealist, or having a highly imaginative soul. And while that is true, these are actual experiences that Mary and I have had. But you don't have to believe that. You can start at this point of, "I don't know, I've got no idea." Let's see what happens in this process of growth towards God. See whether that kind of thing will happen or not. [02:07:05.24]

**Mary** : Who feels like once they reach at-onement with God, who needs a pile anymore? Because the truth is it just keeps going. You just keep going in this process. You're 'sure' pile gets bigger, but you really want to look at why I don't know. You're like, "Doing this got me to this really great place, so I want to keep doing it." [02:07:29.08]

Yeah. So you actually learnt that this process of discovery of truth, which is what we've tried to describe in a fairly basic rudimentary fashion, becomes part of your soul. In the case we raised it is about God, but actually this process is a process that you'll use in your everyday life with everything you ever come against. And you'll just use it automatically. It'll be what you do to discover everything. And just because you've become at-one with God, you won't stop.

Imagine if I became at-one with God and I went, "Alright, I'm at-one with God, now I'm happy as Larry," as the saying goes. Although, I've never met a Larry who's been that happy, but anyway... But I'm very happy and if I just said, "Oh, that's as far as I'm going, that's all", and I didn't have this pile of which I had no idea about still, I would never have become at-one with Mary. I would never have gone through the soul union state. And if we've never done that, you wouldn't even be watching us right now because we'd still be in the spirit world. Because we couldn't get here unless we got to that place.

So, everything that's ever happened to us in our lives that's been really fascinating and interesting and also enjoyable, and some of the things even that have been not that enjoyable recently, have all been the result of us taking this approach that we're willing to continue the process of discovery without judgement of ourselves or without judgement of another in that process. And if you can do that, you will find that your life will just grow and expand and grow and expand and it will be a continuous growth and expansion. [02:09:26.08]

10. Being willing to make mistakes

**Participant** : I sort of realised why I stayed in self reliance - it's safer with the things I think I know. [02:09:41.14]

Yes.

**Participant** : I don't even want to know about the things I don't know. [02:09:44.18]

Yes. The example of Mary's progression

**Participant** : Because I'll be made to feel stupid and I don't want to test because then I could make a mistake. And, I realised that desire was the key. So my question, Mary, is did you have to process the injuries, if you had any, around feeling stupid and making mistakes before you could do this, or did you just step into the desire? [02:10:10.23]

**Mary** : Well, I think I built the desire, Joy. So I read about God, I thought about God a lot more. And I still had those fears of being humiliated, especially of making a big mistake. But the desire led me through. In the example I gave earlier to Elvira, when I was leading the mediumship team, I had a strong solid desire to stay loving. I didn't want to waver from that point. And because of that my fear got triggered and I came out the other end of it because I desired to be loving so much, I was willing to be humble in the process. And I feel it's the same in this journey. If I grow my desire, if my desire is strong enough, then I'll be willing to feel, "I've made a mistake, that feels yucky," in the process. Would you add to that? [02:11:02.24]

I also feel though that Mary had to release some of her emotions in order to do that. You see, we have a lot of emotional hooks into both the 'no idea' and 'maybe' categories. And yes, one of the best things you can do is start addressing those emotional hooks that you have in them. So for example, just how often do you say to another person, "I've got no idea?" [02:11:26.17]

**Participant** : I never used to say that at all.

Exactly! There's an emotional resistance to you admitting that you've got no idea. Now obviously if you've got an emotional resistance to admitting it, then it's going to be very, very hard to actually examine everything that's in that pile, all of which you have no idea about. Who has an emotional hook into feeling we're wrong or making a mistake? Most of us, don't we? It's very rare for a person in today's environment to not have a fear of making a mistake. Quite often, early days, I would say, "I would like and go and do this," and Mary would say, "But we haven't got the funds to do that." And I say to her, "That doesn't matter. Why is that a limitation?" It's only a limitation because of her fear that if we make a mistake, and we've spent a thousand dollars making that mistake, we're not going to get that thousand dollars back and then we'll be a thousand dollars poorer, and we'll have made the mistake with the thousand dollars as well. So we'd rather not do it. And I'd say to Mary quite frequently, "I've made a lot of very expensive soul based mistakes." [02:12:42.15]

**Mary** : AJ always says, "There's no price on your soul."

There's no price on my soul.

**Mary** : "If you learnt through the process, it wasn't wasted."

Yep. So let's say you decide to move to another country and then 3 months later you decide, "I've got to move back." I don't view that as a mistake. Now, you might have spent $50,000 or $100,000 doing that move, and I still wouldn't view it as a mistake. And if you have an investigative process going on, nothing is ever a mistake really in the process. [02:13:16.17]

**Mary** : I guess if you think about it, how much money have you guys spent on spiritual growth and personal development over the years? [02:13:23.04]

All the courses you did and all the religions you've donated to and all of that? If you added all that up, how much would that be? It would be a fairly significant. For some of you, it's probably in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, over the years. It all adds up. [02:13:39.26]

**Mary** : But if at the end of it, you get one thing in this 'sure' pile, was it worth it? [02:13:43.29]

**Participant** : Yes.

Of course it's worth it.

**Participant** : What happens if you don't get anything in that 'sure' pile?

Well, it was still worth it because now you know what's in the 'no idea' and 'maybe' piles. In other words, we often in that process discover what is not true for certain. So I go along to some kind of religious format or New Age thing and we start dealing with crystals and they start talking about the Law of Attraction and they tell me, "I've just got to think my way into positive thoughts and when that happens my life will change instantly, and that's my Law of Attraction." And I'm there thinking, thinking, thinking, thinking, thinking, thinking, thinking, thinking, thinking ... [02:14:26.20]

**Mary** : Testing, testing, testing.

Thinking, thinking. Five years later, there's still not much difference in my life, and I'm going, "Mm, maybe that doesn't work." So that's something I can put in the 'sure' pile as, "I'm sure that doesn't work". You're still getting some kind of answer. And that's really important because if you don't eliminate what doesn't work, a lot of times you'll never discover what does. [02:14:55.04]

**Mary** : Yeah. And maybe that's the true answer to your question, Joy. Maybe I was a bit understating in the desire answer because really how I grew in two years before this really kicked in for me was humility. It was the ability to go, "Oh I might be stuffing up," or, "I'm more willing to see what's really inside of me." And that helped me step into this process more, growing the humility enough to go, "If I make a mistake, I'll put up my hand." But I really wasn't there three years ago. [02:15:25.05]

**Participant** : I think that's what the first two years were about.

I actually, before I came to Earth this time, I've always enjoyed making mistakes. This time I've found it quite difficult because the projection of the world on you when you make a mistake is quite severe. In the last six years of my own progression I could probably name all my mistakes on one or two hands that I've made. But it's constantly getting flung at me. And, not only that, with the media stuff coming soon, you'll find that'll be their focus of attention - all of the mistakes that I've made. And if you worry about what other people view as your mistakes, you won't progress, honestly. But in the world we live in, there is such a hatred for mistake. It's like people hate it because they have so much internal fear about making mistakes.

So for example, many people go, "It would be a mistake to go along to one of those AJ lectures." I've heard people say that to their friends that it'll be a mistake to go along. And I'm thinking how could it be a mistake? I don't even view such a thing as a mistake really, to be frank, but a mistake would be to do one thing and then it not work and then to do exactly the same thing and not work and then do exactly the same thing, and to do that 15 to 20 times and it still not work. Then the big mistake would be to do it again. That to me is a mistake. It is never a mistake to try something new that has some form of logic or something associated with it for certain. Why would that be a mistake? [02:17:17.25]

**Mary** : And everyone goes, "It's all about trust. If it's perfect, then we can trust it." I now feel that if someone came up and demonstrates humility by saying, "You know what, since breakfast, I've stuffed up in seven different ways." I go, "Okay, well now I'm dealing with an honest person." I can trust honesty a lot more than someone who presents this facade of, for example, "I've been a perfect mother. I've been a perfect daughter. I've been a perfect housewife." [02:17:48.28]

"My Law of Attraction is going AWOL, you know, everything that happens in my life is pretty bad but I'm still perfect."

**Mary** : So we view mistakes as untrustworthy. Whereas I feel a humble person owns their mistakes and I feel more trust for them. [02:18:03.05]

Yeah. So I feel actually that before Mary was quite rigid about mistakes, weren't you, babe? [02:18:13.18]

**Mary** : And fear of humiliation.

Fear of humiliation from mistakes.

**Mary** : Like Laura was saying, she could feel it in the first DVDs that I was terrified. [02:18:21.10]

Yep. And then even a fear of other people knowing your true state was something that Mary had to get over as well.

**Mary** : "I'm not loveable," that was my feeling. [02:18:31.00]

10.1. The example of AJ being truthful about his identity

And I had to get over that too. When I first remembered all the details that I've been teaching you over the last three years, one of the feelings I went through, this terrible feeling that I had was, "Oh no, I've just got my life together and I've just got everything quite happy and now I'm going to say that I'm Jesus to people. How much is that going to stuff up my life?" And I had huge fear associated with that. And a huge fear everyone would just focus on my mistakes. And so for a period of time I decided it was better for me not to say anything at all. It's a bit hard for me not to say anything at all, as you realise, so I went through three months of that and that didn't work very well. I felt quite bad about myself in that place. And then I went through the place of, "Alright, I'll talk about the truth but when anybody asks me how I know, then I won't say anything about that." So then I tried that. I was just so afraid to just be me and be perceived as a person who's made mistakes that I actually wanted to be perfect before I spoke the truth. Many of you actually have this going on too. You want to be perfect before you actually speak the truth. But the problem was, if I did that I would never have met Mary, even now - and we met three years ago. I would never have even met her. [02:20:05.02]

**Mary** : And for me, that's horrible. Not only would I have not met my soulmate but my whole soul progression wouldn't have begun. I would still be that angry, fearful, demanding; controlling girl I was three years ago. [02:20:18.00]

I only met Mary by embracing my desire to speak the truth, but also by speaking the truth about who I was. [02:20:24.16]

**Mary** : And you had to be humble.

Her own family had me in their living room because I was saying that I was Jesus, ironically. And if I had never said that, they wouldn't even have had me in their living room. That's the irony. [02:20:40.19]

And this is what happens for most of us. We're so afraid of making mistakes that we want to present everything perfectly. We don't want to embrace this process of desire, not understanding that the next set of enjoyable things in our lives can't happen without firstly embracing this set of enjoyable things and growing from that experience. And this is what this view point of truth is all about. This is a growing experience. It's not something where somebody just tells you the truth, like AJ gets up here and tells you what he thinks the truth is. And everybody goes, "No worries. We all believe that," and throws away their life in the process. That's not what happens. For majority of us, we have to go through the process, and to be frank, I feel all of us have to go through this experimental process with our own desire. Nobody else can make you do it, nobody else can force you into it, and nobody can manipulate you doing it even. It's something you need to embrace for yourself, if you want to continue growing in the universe that God's created for us to grow in. [02:21:49.21]

**Mary** : And to me that's really beautiful and teaches me a lot about God. God wants me to know myself. God wants me to take responsibility for who I am. And the more I do that, the more I connect with God. That's really cool. [02:22:04.13]

11. Closing Words

So let's have a break now for, shall we have half and hour or so? Then we'll answer another question. That question took a while!

