
Chinese: 
欢迎朋友们收看这一期的Economic Update
这是一个以经济角度讨论我们生活的节目
讨论我们与我们子女的工作，我们的债务，我们的收入，还有那些迫在眉睫的问题
我是主持人 理查德·沃尔夫 (Richard Wolff)
我想与大家讨论一件事：它既是个新问题，却也曾经出现过
众所周知，却也令人震惊
《失业问题》

English: 
Welcome, friends, to another edition of Economic
Update, a weekly program devoted to the economic
dimensions of our lives: jobs, debts, incomes
– our children's, our own, those looming.
And I'm your host, Richard Wolff.
I want to talk to you all about a problem
that is both old and new, well known and shocking
just the same.
It's unemployment.

English: 
A topic we need to talk about for many reasons.
The first one is the obvious one: It's crashing
all around us.
We have seen 20-25 million people – and
that's an undercount – lose their jobs in
the last month in this country.
We've never seen anything like it.
This is a faster crash into deep unemployment
than we've ever seen.
The only parallel that comes to mind is the
Great Depression of the 1930s.
Let me remind you, in 1933 at the worst moment
for unemployment, the official rate was 25
percent.
We are fast approaching that kind of number.
We're not there yet, but we probably will
be.
And in any case, it will be worse because
it's been compressed into four weeks, whereas

Chinese: 
出于很多原因，现在讨论它很有必要
第一个原因是显而易见的，它现在，在你我之间横行。
上个月，在这个国家已经有2000到2500万人失业，这还是保守估计
我们没人见过这种场面
当前失业人数增加的速度，也比以往任何时候都快。
我唯一能联想到的事，就是1930年代的大萧条
而且，让我提醒您，1933年，在失业最严重的时候，官方数据是25％
我们正在迅速接近这个数， 目前还没有到
但是，很有可能发生，还有可能变得更糟

Chinese: 
大萧条时期，我们花了四年时间才达到这种下降水平，现在它被压缩成四个星期
当年人们可是有机会对此作出调整，和适应
而且他们也没有感染重病的危险
所以，从多方面来说
这种可能正在成为现实，而且我们还远远没有脱离险境
这可能是资本主义历史上最大的危机，
就是这么严重！
因此，让我们看一下失业问题，因为病毒本身的危险
加上资本主义经济崩溃，这样双重的负担和困难，可以使任何社会不堪重负

English: 
in the Great Depression it took four years
to get to that level of decline.
Those people then had some chance to try to
adjust, to try to accommodate.
And they also didn't have a deadly disease
threatening them at every turn.
So in many ways this may qualify already – and
we're not, way not, done from the end of this
– this may qualify as capitalism's greatest
crisis.
That's how serious it is.
So let's look at the unemployment, because
whatever the dangers were of the virus itself,
having a capitalist economic crash on top
of a virus is an unbelievable burden and difficulty
to put any society through.
It should have been, and it could have been,
the first order of business of any economic

Chinese: 
它本来应该是任何社会，任何经济体系中的头等大事，
但是现代社会中的资本主义
却无法预防这种可怕的冲击
好吧，让我们首先以失业本身开始说
在过去的四个世纪中，它一直是资本主义的一部分
资本主义从17世纪早期，从英格兰开始发展
到现代，占据全球主导地位
在这段时间里，有一个重要的数据
每个以资本主义为主导经济体系的国家中
都曾发生过一种或多种形式的崩溃
它平均每四到七年来一次

English: 
system in any society, but certainly capitalism
in modern society, to protect precisely against
a crash that might come at such a terrible
moment.
Well let's deal first with unemployment as
a topic in itself.
It has been part of capitalism for the last
four centuries.
That's the period of time that capitalism
grew from its earliest beginnings in 17th-century
England to its modern global dominance.
Over that time – and here's a crucial statistic
to understand – capitalism in every country
where it settled and became the dominant economic
system has had a crash, of one kind or another,
on average every four to seven years.

Chinese: 
资本主义是一个极其不稳定的经济体系，一直以来都是
四到七年一次，我们有多种词语来形容它
经济衰退，萧条，低迷，崩溃，危机
真的是无止境的，为什么？因为它经常发生
它在你的一生中发生过很多次，并且以后也会再次发生
我可以肯定的说，这种循环已经持续了四百年，
就让我直说了
资本主义知道这是一个可怕的危险
之后我们将进一步解释：
什么资本家无法阻止它
他们尽一切努力在尝试：此起彼伏的政府政策，无为而治

English: 
Capitalism is a profoundly unstable economic
system, and always has been.
Four to seven years.
And we have a lot of words: "recession," "depression,"
"downturn," "crash," "crisis."
I mean it really is endless.
Why?
Because it happens so often.
It's happened in your lifetime many times,
and it will in your future as well.
I can say that with the confidence that that
pattern hasn't been broken for 400 years.
And let's, in fact, be clear: Capitalism knows
that this is a terrible danger.
We'll come into that some more in a few minutes.
But capitalists have been unable to stop it.
Everything has been tried: this government
policy, that government policy, letting it
heal itself.

English: 
Everything has been tried to get this economy
somehow not to crash every four to seven years.
In the last big crash, the 1930s, we even
developed a new economic theory and analysis
called "Keynesian economics," after the name
of the British economist who developed it:
John Maynard Keynes.
But that didn't work either.
Monetary policy, fiscal policy, the government
has a Council of Economic Advisers, we have
economists working in the Federal Reserve,
in the Treasury.
We have it all.
But we can't solve the problem.
The last crash, 2008 and '9.
And here we are, 10 years later, the next
one.
And here's the sad story: When you don't have
it every four to seven years – that's the
average – if you have a longer run like
we did since 2009 – 10, 11 years – then
the sad reality is, if you have a longer run-up,
you have a worse crash.
And boy is that the case now.

Chinese: 
为了停止每4至7年经济崩溃的循环，他们试过各种方法
上一次，1930年代的大萧条中
我们甚至发明了一种新的经济学理论，称之为凯恩斯主义经济学
以发明它的英国经济学家命名：约翰·梅纳德·凯恩斯(John Maynard Keynes)
但这也不起作用
我们政府启用货币政策，财政政策
雇佣经济顾问委员会
我们请经济学家为美联储工作，为财政部工作，我们拥有一切，但我们还是无法解决问题
上一次经济危机是在2008年和2009年
今天又回来了
10年后它又来了一次
而且可悲的是
如果它不是平均每四到七年来一次，而是更长
10年，11年，像2009年到今天这么长的时间间隔
那么结果会更悲惨，如果间隔时间更长，那么危机则会更糟。就象是现在这种情况

Chinese: 
但一般间隔是四到七年
让我们来看看本世纪的前20年，
从2000年到2020年，2000年发生了经济危机，互联网危机，2008年和2009年又发生了危机
次贷危机，现在又发生了一次危机，我们称其为“新冠危机”
是的，以某个触发事件的名字来命名经济危机很有趣
但是，没有那些事件，也有过经济危机，而有那些事件时，危机也不曾爆发
给你们个提示：危机是系统本身自带的，整个系统是不稳定的，每次只有触发的事件不一样而已
关于失业的第二点，也是有历史的。
我们知道失业一直都会影响到我们，可为什么不做准备呢？
每隔4到7年就会爆发一次危机，不觉的我们应该对此有所准备吗？

English: 
But the four to seven years holds.
Let's take a look at the 20 years, the first
20 years, of this century: 2000-2020.
We had a crash in 2000, "dot-com crash."
We had a crash in 2008 and '9, "subprime-mortgage
crash."
And now we have another crash, and we're calling
it the "covid crash."
Yeah, it's fun to call something a crash named
after what triggers it.
But the problem is we've had crashes without
those triggers, and we've had those triggers
without the crashes.
Hint: It's the system itself that is unstable.
What only varies is what sets it off.
The second thing about unemployment that we're
suffering is also, in a bit, historical.
Why weren't we prepared?
Unemployment affects us all the time.
Spurts of it happen every four to seven years.

English: 
You'd think there was a way in which we were
prepared.
Just like stock prices go crazy sometimes:
We should have been prepared in 2000.
Mortgage defaults happen all the time: We
should have been prepared in 2008.
And viral pandemics have happened over and
over again: We should have been prepared.
We weren't – and weren't prepared for the
unemployment.
Amazing.
It's like the system suffers something and
then needs to pretend it doesn't have this
unstable system about itself.
So, for example, there was no program available
to do really systematic counseling, how to
help people get through an unemployment.
This should be a vast network of offices helping
people do – learning from the past.
How did people get through it in the past?
What were the systems that helped out?
What were the things to avoid?
None of it.
Where are the programs to retrain people – take
advantage of the fact you can't do the job

Chinese: 
我们知道股票价格有发疯的时候，那么2000前不应该做好准备么？
贷款违约也在一直重复，我们也应该在2008年前做好准备
瘟疫也发生过不止一次，我们也应该有所准备
我们没有，也没有为失业做准备
真令人惊讶。 这个不稳定的系统遭受了危难，却假装它本身没有这个问题
举个例子，我们没有可以真正教人们如何度过失业的系统性培训
这应该是一个庞大的，帮助人们的办事机构
从过去中学习，看看以前的人们是如何度过的失业的？
什么样的系统最有效果？
要避免什么事情？ 我们什么都没有做
对人员进行再培训的机构在哪里？不应该利用好这段没有工作的时间来培训吗？

English: 
you used to have, get you upgraded, get you
trained, get you . . . . None of it.
None of it.
We could have been organized to have a vast
program of tutorials.
We have millions of teachers who are not teaching,
and we have millions of people unemployed.
You know something?
We might put these two together.
We might actually do something creative.
And then of course – we'll get to it – you
could have had the government hire people
to do useful things.
What in the world is going on with unemployment?
Now let me read you a list I prepared for
this program of the things we have noticed
over the centuries go with unemployment.
In other words, when unemployment goes up,
here's what else goes up.
You ready?
Here's my list: psychological depression,
alcoholism, drug abuse, marital problems,
child abuse, and criminal behaviors.
They all go up with unemployment.

Chinese: 
升级知识，接受培训，获取……没有，什么都没有
我们本来可以组建上千万的教育项目
我们有数以百万的老师不在教书，我们有数以百万计的人失业
把这两个放在一起，我们可以做些很多有创意的事
当然，我们还要讲， 政府本可以雇用人们做一些有用的事情
失业怎么就成这样了？
现在，让我为您读一读我给这个节目准备的清单，
这是这几个世纪以来，与失业息息相关的事件
换句话说，当失业率上升时
这些事情也会同时增加和减少，准备好了吗？ 清单如下
心理抑郁
酗酒
吸毒
婚姻问题
儿童虐待
和犯罪行为，都随着失业而上升

English: 
But there are some things that go down with
unemployment.
Let me mention those: individual workers'
self-esteem, they feel bad about themselves;
they lose their job skills, those go down;
personal savings go down because they get
used up; and the physical and mental health.
What I just listed to you is billions and
billions of dollars' worth of lost value.
And I'm not even talking about the hurt to
the individuals, the communities, the families
involved.
It is a wild inefficiency of capitalism every
four to seven years to throw millions of people
out of work.
I don't want to hear about capitalist efficiency,
when what they really mean is the efficiency
of the capitalists to save on every possible
cost.

Chinese: 
但是有些事情会随着失业而下降，如下
工人的自尊心，他们对自己的表现而难过
工人的工作技能，技能不再熟练了
个人储蓄下降，因为它们被用完了
以及身心健康。
我刚刚向您列出的可是十亿，百亿美元的损失
我还没有开始谈论对个人，社区，相关家庭的伤害
资本主义的危机不受控制
它效率如此之低
每四到七年就会使数百万人失业。
我不想听到资本主义的高效，
它真正的意思是，只有资本家节省成本高效了

Chinese: 
但是，即使这是真的，仅仅在企业内部提高效率又有什么好处呢？
外部，许多人无所事事可不是高效
每四到七年，就要有几个月或几年无所事事也不是高效
还有一件事令我惊讶，也是关于失业和资本主义的
老板们也讨厌它。 它对老板们也有害
即使老板们知道也不一定承认的，
只有工人干活，他们才能获得利润
工人在家，机器可不会自己动起来
原材料不会自己变成成品
什么都不干，就什么都不会发生
工人必须工作，必须监控，必须修理，必须...不用我多说了
所以老板也讨厌它

English: 
But what good is it to be efficient inside
the enterprise – if even that's true – when
you are so inefficient as to have millions
of people sitting idle for months, or years,
every four to seven years?
And here's something about unemployment and
capitalism that has always amazed me: Employers
hate it too.
It's not good for them.
Employers know, even if they don't admit it,
that the only way they have profit is if the
workers are working.
If the workers are home, your machine doesn't
do it by itself, your raw materials don't
develop into final products by themselves.
Nothing happens by itself.
Workers have to do it, have to monitor it,
have to fix it, have to – you get the picture.
So employers hate it.

Chinese: 
这就是为什么今天很多老板都开始逼迫工人重返工作岗位，即使这并不安全
即使这很危险，不仅是对于被逼的工人，还有他们的家人，子女，父母，都有感染的风险
所以，资本家喜欢的制度
产生他们讨厌的失业
所以你不得不问这个问题： 为什么会有这样的系统存在？
这样的低效，浪费了人类的潜力，浪费人力资源，
他们能从中得到什么？ 因为那些大人物们
那些资本家们，那些拥有公司，董事会成员的人。
他们赚大钱，他们坐在这个系统的顶部
他们确保失业是其他人的问题
你要知道，有一点是他们世世代代的共识：
对他们来说，失业还是有一点好处的

English: 
That's why today many employers are beginning
to push workers back into the job even though
it isn't safe, even though it is deadly – not
just to the worker who's being pushed, but
to his or her family – children, parents.
You know the story.
So the system that the capitalists love produces
the unemployment they hate.
So you have to ask the question: Why would
you have a system like that, that is so inefficient,
that wastes the human potential and the human
resources on the scale that it does?
What do they get out of it?
Because they're the top of the pile.
The capitalists are those people who own the
business, are on the board of directors, they
make the big bucks, they sit at the top of
the system.
They make sure the unemployment is other people's
problems.
And you know something?
They recognize – and they have for generations
– that there's a good thing to unemployment
for them.

English: 
Because it scares working men and women.
It always has.
Because when unemployment shoots up, the great
question in the minds of workers is, will
it come to me too?
You know, it's a little like worrying about
the covid virus.
Will it get me?
Or will I escape?
The anxiety about being unemployed is often
as bad as the unemployment itself.
Well, here's another way to get at it.
Unemployment means, side by side, we have
workers who want a job but don't get one;
we have tools, equipment, and raw materials
sitting there not being used, idle, gathering
rust and dust; and we have lots of social
needs not being met.
Capitalism doesn't put these things together.
But we, as a people, need it.
We need the output, we need the jobs, we need
to use the raw materials.

Chinese: 
因为它会威胁到工人们
因为，当失业飙起来的时候，工人们也会担心：我会是下一个吗？
这有点像担心新冠病毒
我能逃脱吗？还是会中招？
对失业的焦虑通常和遭受失业本身一样严重
换一种说法
失业意味着同时存在多种情况：我们有想要工作 但无法工作的工人
我们坐拥工具设备和原材料，在那里吃灰，生锈
而且我们有很多社会需求没有得到满足
资本主义无法把这些东西整合起来，
但是我们作为一个人类，我们需要它们
我们需要输出，我们需要工作， 我们需要使用原材料

Chinese: 
资本主义之所以不这样做，是因为资本家它不赚钱就不做了
因此，我们所有人都被资本主义的利润制度绑架了
这是系统的故障，这个系统只为少数几个人而运行
现在又来了病毒，
我们为什么不对这种病毒采取措施？
我们为什么不为此做些工作呢？
重新配置工作岗位，补全试剂测试，进行清洁消毒，
使返工的人员更安全
而不是在安全措施完成前之前就返工
失业者还是需要消费物资的
他们吃饭，穿衣服，用家具
他们开车，用东西，但不让他们生产东西
每个人都在消耗，物资数量不断减少

English: 
Capitalism doesn't do it because it isn't
profitable for capitalists to hire.
And so we're all held hostage to the profit
system of capitalism.
That's a failure of a system.
That's a system working for a few, but not
for the many.
And here with this virus?
Come on.
Why aren't we doing something with this virus?
Why didn't we get to work to reconfigure jobs,
to do the testing that we haven't done, to
clean, to disinfect, to make work safe for
people to come back, rather than pressing
them to come back before it's safe?
You know, unemployed people continue to consume:
They eat, they wear clothing, they use up
furniture, they use up a car.
They use things, but they're not allowed to
produce them.
Everybody continues to consume, but a shrinking
number produce.

Chinese: 
那可不是一个高效的系统
好，Economic Update节目的上半段已经结束
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在那里，您可以了解我们的其他活动
也可以光顾我们的工人合作社店铺，购买的有趣的商品
以及我们最近出版的两本书：理解马克思主义(Understanding Marxism)
和理解社会主义(Understanding Socialism)
最后特别，感谢一直支持我们的Patreon社区
激励着我们，这些对于这个节目来说是无价的
别走开，我们马上回来

English: 
That's not an efficient system.
Well, folks, we've come to the end of the
first half of Economic Update.
I want to remind you, please, to subscribe
to our YouTube channel.
Just go to YouTube/Democracy at Work.
It's a way of supporting us, and it's a way
of following us on Facebook, Twitter, and
Instagram.
Please be sure to visit democracyatwork.info,
our website, where you can learn about all
our other activities, our union co-op store
that has interesting things for you to buy,
and the two books we recently published, Understanding
Marxism and Understanding Socialism.
Lastly, special thanks, as always, to the
Patreon community that supports us, and encourages
us, and that is invaluable for this program.

English: 
Stay with us; we'll be right back.
Welcome back, friends, to the second half
of today's Economic Update, devoted to the
topic of unemployment.
In the first half, we discussed what the costs,
causes, nature of unemployment are, and how
it has dogged capitalism from the beginning
– never overcome, never solved, as a fundamental
problem.
Now I want to turn the attention to what we
could do about it.
What are the alternatives to unemployment
that a rational economic system – or anyone
living who's rational about economics – might
want to consider?
None of these are new.
And if you're not familiar with them, it's
because the education in our society has – for

Chinese: 
欢迎朋友们回到Economic Update节目，《失业问题》的下半部分
在上半段，我们讨论了失业的代价，原因，性质
以及它如何从初期就困扰着资本主义
永远无法克服，无法解决的根本性问题
现在我要转移一下话题
怎么样解决它，
有什么方法可以替代失业
这是一个合理的经济体系
或是任何一个经济上理性的人可能会考虑的事
这些都不是新鲜事物
如果您不熟悉它们，那是因为
我们社会中的教育很明显的

Chinese: 
没有把学习这个问题放在首要地位
好吧，我将从最简单的开始
这有一个，替代失业的方法
一般来说，失业是老板决定解雇了您
是老板的决定
哦，我知道，我们可以称之为炒鱿鱼
或卷铺盖，或其他各种花哨的字眼
但最终结果是您被解雇了，您自己也清楚
您被解雇是因为雇用您，我无利可图。
您做的东西卖不完，
不管您之前做的商品和服务是什么，我卖不掉了
所以我不会付您工资去生产而我不能卖的东西，您被解雇了
可我们还有另一种解决方案
正如我将要说明的那样，该方案现在也一直存在
不裁员
但降低每个人的工作时间
它们的最终结果都是一样的

English: 
reasons I think will become clear – not
made that learning a priority.
Okay, I'm going to begin with the simplest.
Here's an alternative to unemployment.
Usually, unemployment is a decision by an
employer to fire you, and that employer is
making that decision.
Oh, and I know, we can call it "layoffs,"
or "redundancy," or all kinds of other fancy
words.
You're fired is the bottom line, and you know
it.
You're fired because it isn't profitable to
hire you.
I can't sell as many of whatever it is you
helped to make – whatever the goods and
services are – as I used to, and so I'm
not going to pay you a wage to produce what
I can't sell.
You're fired.
And there's always been an alternative to
that, and that alternative exists now too,
as I'll explain.
Don't fire people, but give everybody fewer
hours.

English: 
It accomplishes exactly the same thing, but
what it does is share the unemployment equally
across all workers.
Everybody goes from 40 hours to 30, or to
20, or whatever it is.
And you know, even today when we have this
special kind of capitalist crash – the one
stimulated by a virus – it's clear that
many people were not working anymore because
the assembly line was set up so you couldn't
be six or more feet away from the next person.
Okay, well, uh, stretch it out a bit.
Have people working fewer hours if that's,
if there isn't the demand, but you can do
that as a substitute for unemployment.
In many countries around the world, trade
unions, where they're strong, demand this.
They want the unemployment shared by everyone
equally, and not imposed by some on the others.
And you know why?

Chinese: 
在所有工人中平均分配失业
每个人从每周40小时减少到30小时，20小时，或其他时间
你知道，在今天，由瘟疫开启了资本主义崩溃，这种特殊情况下，
许多人很明显不能再工作了
因为生产线上，人与人之间需要安全距离，不能超过六英尺。
好吧，工作距离需要拉长一点
需求也降低了，那么请同时减少工人们的工作时间
您可以这样来代替失业
在世界各地，许多工会力量强势的国家里
他们希望所有人平等地承担失业，
而不是由少数人强加

English: 
Because then it can't be used as a club over
the working class.
It doesn't serve the employer, who can terrify
some by saying I'll fire you and I'll let
your coworker go.
You can't divide workers if there's a rule
that what afflicts some afflicts all, when
it's none of their fault.
But I, put that one aside.
I want to talk about what we've got now, the
unemployment of the covid virus.
Here's a better way to go than unemployment.
We now have – whatever the numbers actually
are – 20, 30 million people who were working
a month ago who aren't working today.
Well, what are they doing?
The vast majority of them are doing nothing.
Or they're finding something around the house
to do, getting on each other's nerves, upset,

Chinese: 
你知道为什么吗，因为那样就不能威胁到工人阶级
老板不能恐吓工人，不能说
我要解雇你，但让你的同事留下来
如果规则是，一方受难，人人同责，就无法分裂工人阶级
而且，失业也不是工人们造成的
现在我想把这个话题放一边，谈谈现在的状况，
新冠病毒造成的失业
以及比失业更好的办法。
具体数字是多少还不清楚，但我们现在有约两三千万人，一个月前在工作,现在失业了
他们现在在做什么呢？
他们绝大多数人无所事事
也许他们正在家里找事做
找彼此的茬
懊恼
焦虑

Chinese: 
想道：天哪，这事完了以后我还能有工作吗？
我能在失业补助领完之前找到工作吗？
焦虑，紧张
令人反胃，震惊，但这一切都其实没有必要
让我借鉴一下历史上的美国，
这样你们不会以为我在提倡一件美国人不做的事情
上一次，美国失业率像现在这么高的时候
1930年代
富兰克林·罗斯福（Franklin Roosevelt）为应对当时强的工人运动，以及社会党和共产党的压力
你知道他做了什么， 他制定了公共就业计划
是的，如果私营公司无力或没有意愿雇佣工人
那么政府来，在1934年至1941年间

English: 
anxiety-ridden, wondering: My god, will the
job be there when this is over?
Will my unemployment run out before I get
my old job or a new . . . . The anxiety, the
tension – it's disgusting, it's horrific,
and it's all unnecessary.
Let me borrow from American history, so I'm
not misunderstood to be advocating something
we don't do in America.
Here's what we did in America the last time
we had unemployment like this: the 1930s.
Franklin Roosevelt, in response to pressure
from the labor movement and the socialist
and communist parties that were big and strong
then – you know what he did?
He created a public employment program.
That's right.
If the private companies were either unable
or unwilling to hire, well, then the government
would.
And it did.

English: 
From 1934 to 1941, somewhere between 12 and
15 million people were hired.
Let's see, what could we do today?
How about this: We have tested one million
out of the 325 million people in this country.
You know what we could do?
Train and deploy an army of testers across
America – with their masks, and gloves,
and their six-foot distancing – to do the
testing.
Train the people to do it.
Give millions of people a job testing the
remaining millions of us.
That would be an enormous service to every
possible way we have of fighting this virus.
We're not doing it.
Here's another set of jobs for hundreds of
thousands.
In other countries they're called "tracers."
You know what they do?
When they identify someone who has the virus
they trace, who are the other people you saw
in the last two weeks – who did you go out
with, who did you have dinner with, who did

Chinese: 
政府雇用了1200至1500万人
让我们来看看，今天的我们能做什么？ 这样行不行？
我国才测试了3.25亿人中的100万人
不如我们在全美训练和部署一支测试人员大军
让他们戴着口罩和手套，保持安全间隔6英尺，进行病毒测试
培训大家作到以上几点，让数以百计的人测试剩下的数百万人
这将为我们对抗这种病毒提供巨大的帮助
我们还没有这样做
还有一项需要成千上万人员的工作
在其他国家，他们被称为追踪者
当他们发现感染者时，
他们会追踪在过去两周内的和感染者接触的密接者
和谁一起出去过？
和谁一起吃过饭？
和谁一起散过步

English: 
you go for a walk with – in order to check
them, because they are the ones in danger.
We don't do any of that.
Here's another group: cleaners.
People whose job it is to clean and disinfect,
on a mass basis, every workplace, every store,
every athletic arena.
And we need to do it over and over again,
so it's an ongoing job.
Wow.
What about the millions of teachers who could
be tutoring on the internet, one-on-one, with
four students a day over four hours, times
five days a week.
That's 20 students.
Each unemployed teacher could be working one-on-one,
interactively, with a student, making people
learn and benefit out of this catastrophe.
And then there's the greening of America.
Converting us into an ecologically sound place,
by planting trees.
By a thousand other things.
There could be a public employment program
that could have been planned, and could be

Chinese: 
因为那些密接者也处于危险之中，所以要检查他们
我们也没这么做
还有另一组人：清洁工们，从事大规模清洁消毒的工作人员
每个工作场所
每个商店
每个体育场
都需要一遍又一遍地清理，这是一项持续性的工作
数以百万计的老师们呢？可以一对一，在互联网上进行辅导吧？
每天花四个小时，教四个学生，一周五天就是二十个学生。
每个失业的老师都可以与学生进行一对一互动
使他们从这场灾难中学习并受益
还有绿化美国
通过种植多种草木，让我们的生态平衡
如果我们有一个好的公共就业计划，现在就可以启动并工作了

English: 
up and working now.
Instead leaving people idle – that's a disastrously
failed response to the failure of capitalism
in the first place.
Not only did we not prepare for this virus,
we haven't any mechanism to cope intelligently
with the unemployment that has crashed around
us.
Think about it: This is a waste of human potential,
and a waste of human resources, that stands
as the most profound criticism of capitalism
one could ask for.
Here's another thing we could do.
We can make a transition in our economy to
worker co-ops.
You know, we talk about this, but let me explain
to you why it particularly affects unemployment.

Chinese: 
而不是让人们闲着
这是失败的资本主义，同时也是资本主义应对灾难的失败
我们不仅没有为这种病毒做准备。
也没有任何机制可以理智地应对我们崩溃的失业问题
好好想一想
这是在耽误人类的潜能，也是对人力资源的浪费。
这个事实就是对资本主义的最深刻的批判
我们还可以做的另一件事
我们可以在经济上，向工人合作社过渡，你知道，我们以前一直在谈这一点，
让我向您解释为什么它可以改变失业

Chinese: 
资本主义的企业有个底线
他们的第一目标就是追求利润
他们最大化能增加利润的活动， 这就是整个资本主义系统的工作方式
但是我们不仅仅想要获得利润，对吧？ 数百万人需要工作保障，对吧？
我们被解雇了，
只是因为，不让我们工作要比让我们工作更能增加企业的利润
这就是大多数失业发生的原因
但是且慢，对于我们大多数人来说，就业保障才是更重要的吧
也需要好的工作条件吧
社会保险福利也很重要
对我们来说社保比利润更重要，
利润只对老板至关重要
那么，让我们讨论一下这些个问题吧。 不，不，不，我们什么都不能讨论

English: 
Capitalist corporations have what they call
the bottom line, the number-one objective
they seek to achieve, what they maximize in
their activities.
It's called profit.
That's how the system works.
Yeah, but we don't just want profit, do we?
We want job security, millions of us.
We're being fired because it's better for
the profits of business not to have us working
than have us working.
That's why unemployment happens most of the
time.
But wait a minute.
For us, the majority, the people, the job
security is crucial.
Just like the job conditions, the benefits
– those are crucial.
Those are more crucial to us than profit.
Profit is more crucial to the employer.
Okay, let's work something out here.
No, no, no, we don't work anything out.

English: 
We have a system that says "the" – as if
there were one – the bottom line is profit.
In a worker co-op, that wouldn't be the case.
In a worker co-op you would have multiple
bottom lines.
Sure, you'd be interested in having the revenue
greater than the cost; you want to make a
profit.
Absolutely, I understand that.
But you also want job security.
You also want people with mental and physical
health coming out of your job.
You'd like to make people come out of a job
happier than they went in, better educated
than they went in.
You want it to be a place people look forward
to going to – because they'll be more productive,
by the way, which is also good for your profits.
So you want . . . a worker co-op isn't a profit-driven
enterprise.
It isn't capitalism.
Because there isn't an employer who gets the
profit, versus a group of workers who get
wages.
Because the workers are themselves the employer.
That's what worker co-op means.

Chinese: 
我们的系统定下了：仿佛其他问题不存在一样，利润是唯一的底线
但在工人合作社中，情况就不一样了
工人合作社有多个底线
当然，您希望收入大于成本。
你想赚钱，我知道
但是你也需要就业保障
您还需要工作身心健康
入职以后生活更快乐
在其中受到更好的教育
您希望它成为他人向往的场所，这样大家工作也会更有效率
效率高了，您的利润也就高了，您还想要。。。工人合作社不是仅仅以利润驱动的企业
不是资本主义，因为没有拿利润的老板，和拿工资的员工
因为工人本身就是老板，所以工人合作社意味着

English: 
They are as concerned about the wages as they
are about the profits because they get them
both.
And therefore the tension isn't there, the
tension that leads millions of workers to
lose their job to a small number of employers
who are calculating what's best for their
profits.
So a worker co-op would be an institutionalized
way of having more objectives than profit.
And guess what.
Workers in a worker co-op would right away
understand having anybody not working in the
enterprise is stupid.
There's no reason for that.
Even if the things you produce in your enterprise
are no longer what people want, fine, then
develop a way to move workers from one workplace
to another, from a place producing goods people
don't want to a place where workers are producing
what people do want.
That's not rocket science.

Chinese: 
工人对工资的关注度与利润的关注度一样，因为工人们都获得了利润
因此劳资冲突就消失了
这种冲突导致数百万工人失去工作，而少数老板们却可以计算，享受获得的利润
因此，工人合作社将是一种实现多个目标的制度，而不仅仅是利润
而且，
工人合作社中的工人会立刻理解这个道理
一个没有人工作的企业有多蠢
没有任何理由
即使您在企业中生产的产品不再是人们想要的，也可以
把工人从一个工作场所，转移到另一个工作场所去
从一个生产无用商品的地方，抱歉，到一个生产热销产品地方
这有多难？

Chinese: 
一个聪明的工人合作社会花费大量时间精力和人力来帮助人们改变
在工厂，办公室或商店工作时，您可以尝试这样一个系统
一个积分系统
如果您是那里的老员工，给您加分
如果你要养一个大家庭，加分，
您的技术更熟练，加分
这些积分将决定，需要转移工作地点时会不会轮到您
根据您的分数，您可以决定选择是否留下来
类似一个资历系统
当人们不得不从一项工作转移到另一项工作时，这样作，就加入了更多的公平元素进去
但是，让百万健康的成年人在几个月里闲着不干事
这简直疯了
合作社经济中，您看得到它
感受的到它
这里都能体会的到
因此不会走那条路

English: 
An intelligent worker-co-op economy would
spend a lot of time, energy, money, and personnel
helping people to move.
Here's a system.
When you work at a factory, or an office,
or a store, there's a point system.
You get points if you've worked there a long
time, you get points if you have a big family,
you get points if you are more skilled than
the next one.
And those points then will determine if people
have to be moved from this workplace to another.
You get your choice whether to stay or not
depending on how many points.
It's like a seniority system.
And it can mean that there's a lot of fairness
built into when people have to move from one
job to another.
But have adult, healthy people sitting idle,
by the millions, for months?
That's nuts.
And a worker-co-op economy sees it, feels
it, experiences it, right then and there,
and therefore won't go in that direction.

Chinese: 
它了解人民，也是来服务人民的
在大多数情况下，工人阶级不希望失业。
因此，我们将竭尽所能阻止它，因为无人能从此获利
工人们做自己的老板，也会像资本家那样理解它
失业不是好消息
工人也将采取措施阻止它，他们无意让它发生
但是，资本家为了要分裂工人阶级，让他们恐惧，并继续赚钱，则会选择裁员
因为，开除解决了其他问题，所以，有损失也要这么做。工人合作社则没有这种问题
听好，在整个失业中，有一项基本原则
失业对失业者没有好处

English: 
It understands the people we're here to serve
– the majority, the working class – doesn't
want unemployment.
And so we're going to do everything to prevent
it because it's not good for anybody.
The workers, as their own boss, will understand,
like the capitalist does, that unemployment
is bad news.
And they will take the steps to stop it, because
they have no interest in not doing that; whereas
the capitalist – to keep the workers divided,
to keep them fearful, and to keep making money
– will choose unemployment, even though
it hurts him, because it solves other problems
for him.
Worker co-ops don't have that situation.
Look, there's a fundamental thing at work
here in the whole analysis of unemployment.
Unemployment never serves the unemployed.

Chinese: 
他们不想要它，害怕它，忍受它，被它折磨
对于老板来说，这是两害取其轻
好吧，这段时期，我的利润状况不好，我要暂时不开工了
这不是一件好事，但我可以这么做
工人遭受的损失更大，资本家往往是收入较高的人，他们比普通工人更容易度过失业期。
所以，这里，朋友们，就是它的底线
少数人失去利润与多数人的失业
不难理解，为什么资本家会选择保持这样，浪费的，非理性制度
但是，我无法理解的是
为什么，为谋生而工作的人们，你我，会如此纵容这样一个系统

English: 
They don't want it, they fear it, they endure
it, and they suffer it.
For the employer, it's the lesser evil.
All right, I've got to get through this period.
My profit situation . . . I'm going to do
without workers for a while.
Not a good thing, but I'll do it.
The workers suffer the most.
The capitalists tend to be people with higher
incomes; they can get through the unemployed
period a lot easier than the average working
people.
So here we got it, folks, bottom line: profits
for the few versus unemployment for the many.
It's not so hard to understand why capitalists
choose to keep such a system, irrational and
wasteful, in place.
But the mystery for me is how and why working
people – you and I, who work for a living

English: 
– would ever tolerate and endure a system
which every four to seven years throws people
out of work, wasting their lives, hurting
their income, smashing their families.
And for what?
For the profits of a small minority, which
is what employers are.
This is Richard Wolff.
Thank you very much for being on this program
with me, and I look forward to speaking with
you again next week.

Chinese: 
每四到七年就会使让大家失业一圈
浪费他们的人生
损害他们的收入
破坏他们的家庭
为了什么？
就为了少数人的利润？老板们的利润？
这是理查德·沃尔夫(Richard wolf)
非常感谢您与我一起参这次节目，我期待下周再次与您交流
