PAUL JAY: Welcome to The Real News Network.
I'm Paul Jay.
Nine years since the fall of Saddam Hussein,
what are the conditions in Iraq?
What is the level of violence?
And what do the Iraqi people have to look
forward to?
Now joining us to talk about that situation
is Sahar Issa.
She's with the McClatchy Baghdad bureau.
In 2007 she was awarded a Woman of Courage
in Journalism Award from the International
Women's Media Foundation.
Thanks very much for joining us again, Sahar.
SAHAR ISSA: Thank you.
JAY: And once again I'll just explain to people,
we're shooting Sahar in a way you can't really
recognize her, because it's still not a very
safe place to be a journalist, in Baghdad.
Sahar, so talk about nine years later what
does Iraq look like.
ISSA: Nine years after the invasion, nine
years, how many successive governments have
come, have been elected, have been voted into
control and into power, and the Iraqi people
are still waiting for these governments to
take into consideration that what the people
want is to live a life that is normal, that
is normal--services within acceptable limits,
electricity, clean drinking water, jobs.
The aspirations of the Iraqi people are dwindling,
their hopes of realizing their dreams through
these successive governments.
They are becoming a sarcastic people, and
they are very skeptical about whether or not
this generation will see any development in
the country.
It is not a good place to be at this time.
JAY: There was a very large demonstration
in Basra today--supporters of Sadr.
And apparently it's partly because the Arab
League meetings are coming at the end of the
month.
But the slogans, we're told, were all about
poverty and the dire economic situation facing
Iraqis.
What is that?
ISSA: I will [incompr.]
something.
Look at Basra.
It happened in Basra.
Basra may be--as a province, may be one of
the richest provinces, I don't know, in the
world.
Its oil wealth is very, very much.
And at the same time, these people are living
in dire conditions.
Jobs are a dream.
There is no economy.
There are no services.
Nothing is moving forward.
Several times there were calls from Basrali
politicians in order to create a province
in Basra--not a province, but a region, so
that they would have more control over their
fates, more control over how many schools
they have, how many hospitals they have, how
to bring about stability in economics, how
to repair their streets, how to build homes
and flats and apartments.
But this call has unheeded, for the central
government looks to keeping strong control
over the provinces.
It is not about to allow part of its power
to go into the hands of the local government.
This is basically what this is about.
This is not only in Basra, of course, but
especially in Basra, because Basra is so rich,
the contrast is so great.
JAY: Now, oil contracts are being signed with
foreign oil companies, both Chinese, American,
and European.
Oil is flowing.
Money is coming in.
Oil prices are very high.
So where's all the money?
ISSA: So where is all the money?
That is the $1 million question.
If anyone can answer it, I think you would
not live very long.
But that is the situation in Basra.
It is the situation in many other provinces.
No development is being seen.
However, because of the Arab summit, you see
that the streets are being cleaned, flowers
are being thrown, things like that.
Superficial, superficial things are being
made to beautify the cities, and millions
and billions are going to this.
And the really essential and important and
fundamental things required in order to build
lives of people, this is something that is
being neglected.
And the politician Haider Al-Abadi, who is
an economist by profession--and he is the
head of the financial committee in the Parliament--once
told us that if only the economy would be
put to rights, a lot of even the political
issues would dissolve--people would be running
after their livelihoods instead of running
after problems.
But, unfortunately, it is not a priority to
the Iraqi government.
JAY: Now, the Maliki government, how legitimate
is it considered by the Iraqi people?
The elections have always been very controversial,
and the whole process was the product of occupation.
What is the sense of that?
ISSA: Let us put it simply.
Those who profit--or benefit, not profit--those
who benefit from this government consider
it legitimate, and those who don't want another
one.
This situation, of course, stems from the
controversy that brought about these successive
governments.
The other thing is there is a real feeling
that the prime minister, Mr. Nouri al-Maliki,
is consolidating power in his own hands.
And some people are even wondering whether
we will see more elections or not.
JAY: And what is the role now and the feelings
of the Sunnis, who have felt, if I understand
it correctly, very excluded from this whole
process?
ISSA: It is not a matter of excluded.
In the beginning they excluded themselves.
It's a matter of ethics.
They thought that participating in a government
that stems from occupation is not acceptable.
But as a result of this ethic, they were excluded.
And it was difficult for them when they came
back in the next elections, because the other
partners have already made deals, made friendships,
put to strategies, and they are a latecomer.
They tried very hard in order to become partners,
but they still feel that they are not really
partners, it is not a real partnership.
It is--how do you say?--they are together
at the table, but the decision-making process
is in the hands of the Shiite majority for
sure.
JAY: And what is the level of violence now?
Before the American troops left, there was
dire warnings that massive civil war would
break out again.
What is the situation?
ISSA: The situation here--of course, violence
has not stopped, but it has become a different
kind of violence.
Whereas formerly [incompr.]
sectarian strife, it was more random, it was
more random, it was faceless, it killed people
on the streets for no reason--people went
out and they didn't return, they didn't know
that they were going to return it all--now
it's a different kind of violence.
It is a more political violence.
Targets are carefully chosen.
A lot of the Iraqi people believe that even
the politicians themselves--those who are
in the government, especially--participate
in this violence one way or the other.
And as you see, we have an example that the
prime minister for three years held a file
on Tariq al-Hashemi that he only brought up
now to use it politically.
So it is not far-fetched that our politicians
themselves are implicated in violence.
It is political violence.
It is less than it used to be.
JAY: And what is the ongoing role now of the
United States in this massive embassy in Baghdad?
ISSA: It is advisory.
But whether its advice is taken or not, this
is a whole different thing.
The numbers, of course, of the people present
here are great.
This is also something of controversy, because
we hear that 16,000 people are inside the
embassy.
It is true that not all of them are State
Department.
Many of them are--how do you say?--like, support,
support things like security and service,
etc., etc.
But their role seems to be diminishing.
Is this good or bad?
I don't know if it is good or bad, because
in some issues, to have the advice of the
United States of America is to help politicians
hold their horses.
Our politicians are new to the game.
Perhaps they don't have the finesse, they
don't have the patience that is necessary
for a political and diplomatic game.
In this affair I believe that the Americans
were very good in mediating between people,
very good in bringing people together and
rubbing out the--what do you say?--rubbing
out the harsh edges in meetings, and generally
sort of becoming almost a glue keeping the
partnership together.
Now that their presence is diminished and
their influence and even their advice is diminished
to a certain extent, we can see, because as
soon as they left, the first thing that Mr.
Nouri al-Maliki did, unfortunately, was to
alienate the Sunni community by very strangely
accusing the top politicians in this way.
It could have been done in a better way, in
a more political way, in a more diplomatic
way.
So was he doing this upon the advice of the
Americans?
Or was he opposing their advice?
Or maybe he didn't take their advice at all.
But he is known to be a strong-headed man
who has a will of his own, and he jumps into
situations like this, regardless, sometimes,
of the results.
JAY: And what's happening amongst the people
in terms of organizations that are emerging,
trade unions, other ways that people are getting
organized to fight for their own interests?
ISSA: To tell you the truth, it is very poor
organization.
There is a very low level of civil society.
There is no progress in this matter--I cannot
say no progress.
I will say, to be fair, there is little progress.
But to tell you the truth, building of establishments,
as they would want to see in a country like
Iraq at this time in history, we should have
seen more accomplished.
First it was because of the sectarian strife,
and then it was because of something else,
and then it was--there are so many excuses.
And people are waiting, but they don't know
how long they have to wait and what it is
they are going to get at the end of their
very long wait.
JAY: Thank you very much for joining us.
ISSA: You are most welcome.
JAY: And thank you for joining us on The Real
News Network.
