A counsel in Ealing could become the
first in England to enforce an exclusion
zone around an abortion clinic
campaigners say a buffer zone is needed
to prevent anti-abortion protesters
harassing women as they use the clinic
so a necessary protection for women
using the service or an infringement of
the right to protest
joining me now from central London is
the chair of labour life Ed Ronnie and
also from Cardiff we're hoping to speak
to dr. Pam Lowe who's a senior lecturer
in sociology there she is
who has researched the effect that
protests have had on abortion patients
to you Ed Ronnie first of all isn't
anything but that guarantees the safety
of women and indeed staff using these
abortion clinics to be welcomed well I
don't see what what relevance that has
good counsel network are outside abortion
clinics and they're offering support for
women who in the hotspots don't want to
have an abortion... They say it's support but the Ealing council considers it a public order
offence
well Ealing Council are considering that
they have absolutely no evidence of that
whatsoever in fact I was formerly a
member of Ealing Council for the
Labour Party and I'm kind of astounded
at my former colleagues for pursuing
this without any evidence of harassment
whatsoever what good counsel network do
is they offer a leaflet and they say to
women going in we're here to offer you
support if you want to continue with
your pregnancy now if you're pro-choice
and a woman is vulnerable she doesn't
want to have an abortion she's feels
she's pressurised into an abortion for
economic circumstances family members or
a boyfriend or an abusive husband and in
truth she wants to continue with the
pregnancy and have her child but she
feels she's not supported then she
welcomes that offer of support and there
are hundreds of women who have been
offered their support and continue to
receive that support as long as they
wish to receive it so that is something
that that's definitively pro-choice and
if you want to remove that choice to
those women who don't have a broadband
connection or aren't wealthy enough for
all the support
that everyone else can get then that is
not a pro-choice position okay Pam is
not a pro-choice position you've
research
this what impact do these people
standing outside clinics have as Ed
says they're simply handing out
leaflets they're offering support
they're offering advice.
Ed has made specific reference to the good council network
it's important to say that the
different groups involved in
standing outside clinics very enormously and there's no control over who
comes and who goes and what individuals
do so it might be the case that someone
there's a good counsel on network
doesn't necessarily be abusive that
doesn't mean to say that further groups
are not abusive and I think that's
what's important to remember there is no
control over who stands outside a clinic
and this is a very specific form of
street harassment women feel harassed
because they don't know what the
intentions are for the people outside
the clinic and there's been all sorts of
reports you know women have been sprayed
with holy water
women have been you know called
murderers what happens outside the
clinic varies enormously and it's
uncontrollable because it just depends
on who turns up on the day and women do
feel harassed about that and they don't
necessarily need someone outside the
clinic to give them a choice because the
idea that the idea that it's only people
outside the clinic often women choices
is based on a really strange idea about
what happens inside abortion clinics and
if women go into an abortion clinic and
say they're being coerced the abortion
clinic will not procedure and will offer
them proper support from people who are
qualified to give it okay I'm Alice but
just put those points to you I mean in
in terms of advice that you get if you
are pregnant and unwanted you can go to
lots of different places you can go to
your GP you can google it I know you
said those without broadband connection
but but you know most people have access
to a GP and these two things immediately
offer you advice and guidance on both
things I just googled it myself the
first thing that brought me up was the
NHS it showed you links to how an
abortion is carried out it tells you can
go to an NHS to an abortion clinic you
should speak to your partner you can
talk to your GP there is no restriction
on women getting this information
themselves
why is it the people outside these
clinics feel they need to reinforce this
information well what they've found is
that a lot of women feel that that
support is not available to continue
with their pregnancy because they're
poor because they're coerced because of
economic circumstance they feel they
can't afford to standing outside if this
woman can't afford to have a child is
these people standing outside these
clinics going to support that child for
the next 18 years yes that's exactly
right that's what I said in in my first
comments is the good counsel network
make themselves available to support
these women for as long as they need or
want that support that is the whole
basis of the charity and that is to help
women who have facing difficult
circumstances who do not want to have an
abortion but won't have the choice to
continue with their pregnancy but have
not found that support elsewhere now the
point is yes of course life charity and
many other works including co-counsel
network have online support that people
can go to and they have multiple
different methods
what good counsel network have found is
that nevertheless there are still women
who are in unclear situations of
immigration or who are who are too poor
to access the Internet as I said and
this is the only way they're receiving
support for the choice to continue with
their pregnancy which is what they want
and they welcome receiving this leaflet
and they welcome receiving this offer of
support and I do know that internet is
available for free at most libraries so
you don't have to have money to go on
the Internet
Pam low isn't isn't Edie's point fare
though you know if minds are being
changed these organizations wouldn't
exist if they weren't at least having
some success if lives are being changed
at the gates of these abortion clinics
doesn't it show that there are some
women out there who aren't considering
all the options before they go through
with it there's a very small number of
women who prefer to talk to random
strangers outside the clinic than
actually prefer you know proper
professionals but I think that's a very
small minority and and the fact of the
matter is that the majority of women
going to the clinic do not want to
discuss their private business form the
pavement and this is a breach of
healthcare privacy you know the
different groups and as I say it's
different
you don't know who's gonna turn up some
of the mayor you know will film women
going in a side out clinics and it's a
breach of health care privacy and there
is absolutely no need for them to be
there if women go into an abortion
clinic and they are in two minds about
having an abortion they don't have it
you know we know from the data that the
amounts of women who do not proceed with
an abortion does not buried like
regardless of whether people are outside
or not so they're not actually having
the effect that they think they're
having but they are causing a large
amount of distress to women when in
their attempts to actually stop abortion
which is what these organizations are
for there exist against abortion and
that's what their central aim I did a
pale on Twitter to see if anybody had
any thoughts about this Nikki Hatchin
he's one of the sky contributors she's
also and also she said one of the most
distressing things about the abortion I
had was the protest nobody takes the
decision lightly to protest about
somebody entering or leaving a clinic is
abuse and Ed Rainey why do you and these
groups think that you have any right at
all
to intervene in a private medical matter
a good counsel Network started getting
involved in doing this work because they
found that there were prayer groups and
these are not protests there are these
of these a prayer vigils outside the
clinics and that they found that other
groups who are outside these clinics
we're having women who are not being
reached through all the means that have
been mentioned including by myself now
the point is doctor dr. Pam can speak to
these women who have been helped by Good
Counsel Network and so the reason that
any anyone has and don't go through with
abortions though there are women who go
there and they talk about it and they
decide against it women walk out of
these clinics every day just cuz they
walk in doesn't mean they're going to
have an abortion well exactly and that's
the point is that good counsel Network
do not assume that every woman who's
going to the clinic is going for an
abortion they're considering an abortion
but many of them hundreds at one clinic
in particular have found that they are
under pressure to have an abortion for
economic reasons for pressures from
family
you know curse coat in coercive
situations as well but also there may be
refugees or illegal immigrants and what
they need is the offer of charity to
support sorts of support solidarity and
support continuing through the pregnancy
through childbirth and through that
young child's life until they no longer
need that support this is the support
that's offered by Good Counsel network
and buffer zones will remove that offer
a support it will remove choice for
those women who feel they're not
supported in any way but to have an
abortion you can't be pro-choice if the
only choices available is abortion but
in Mary Stopes and the other abortion
clinics they don't they don't offer
support but it isn't the only choice
when you go to your GP or when you look
online you know it says you know it's a
big decision you have to talk to friends
you have to seek impartial divine advice
this is what it involves make sure it's
the right decision for you that that's
impartial if you don't the abortion
clinics only offer abortion they do not
offer support continuing the pregnancy
and they do not offer a support
throughout that young child's childhood
after giving birth okay Network and
other groups offer don't offer anything
else apart from abortion how is that
true it's not true the abortion clinic
will make appropriate references for
anyone who wants to continue like the
pregnancy and need extra support so they
will refer women on for example
intuitive situations can you let me
finish please
right so the abortion clinics will refer
to professional organizations they will
refer for example if women are being
coerced to organizations like website
that happen is routinely and actually
you know the problem is is that these
organizations and they very enormous ly
about how much pressure they put on
women outside the clinic there is no
control they call themselves painful
counselors but they're not qualified
counselors on the placement at all and
you know and the majority of women
experience this as harassment and the
idea that that you know that this is the
only line between women having and not
having abortion is just ridiculous there
are plenty other avenues and when you go
to abortion clinics and don't want to
continue can be referred to professional
organizations that can be referred to
social serve
we referred to women say that can refer
to an awful lot of places that are
actually professionally qualified
they've been supporting the women so the
idea that you know it's only you know
the people outside the clinic it's just
not true at all okay they were going to
have to leave it feeling council
deciding this issue tonight I'm afraid
we're out of time their ad rainy Pamela
thank you both very much
inning Council is going to meeting
tonight to discuss whether or not they
should implement one of these buffer
zones in their borough
