FROM THE MILLER CENTER, THIS IS
AMERICAN FORUM.
DOUGLAS BLACKMON: WELCOME BACK
TO AMERICAN FORUM.
I'M DOUG BLACKMON.
WHOSE FAULT WAS FERGUSON?
THAT'S THE QUESTION BENEATH
ALMOST ALL OF THE DEBATE IN
WHICH AMERICANS HAVE BEEN
ENGAGED OVER THE PAST YEAR,
AFTER A YOUNG BLACK MAN WAS
KILLED DURING AN ENCOUNTER WITH
A WHITE POLICE OFFICER IN
FERGUSON, MISSOURI, AND THE LONG
STRING OF SIMILAR CONFRONTATIONS
SINCE THEN, AND IN SO MANY
PLACES, THE DEMONSTRATIONS AND
AT TIMES RIOTOUS BEHAVIOR BY
AFRICAN AMERICANS, AND OTHERS IN
PROTEST OF THOSE EVENTS.
WHOSE FAULT IS IT?
SHOULD SOMEONE BE PUNISHED?
CAN ANYTHING BE DONE TO PREVENT
THESE INCIDENTS FROM CONTINUING
IN AMERICAN LIFE?
THOSE ARE THE QUESTIONS FOR
WHICH WE HAVE ALL BEEN FUMBLING
FOR ANSWERS, AND THE FOCUS OF
OUR AMERICAN FORUM SPECIAL
SERIES, CONTINUING IN THIS
EPISODE, ASKING, "WHAT NOW?"
WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE?
OUR GUEST TODAY HAS BEEN ONE OF
THE MOST INFLUENTIAL AND WIDELY
FOLLOWING SCHOLARS OF BLACK LIFE
IN AMERICA FOR MORE THAN FOUR
DECADES.
ORLANDO PATTERSON IS A PROFESSOR
AT HARVARD UNIVERSITY, THE
AUTHOR OF MANY ACCLAIMED
VOLUMES, WINNER OF THE NATIONAL
BOOK AWARD, A PROLIFIC
COMMENTATOR, AND AN
EXTRAORDINARY AND OUTSPOKEN
PUBLIC INTELLECTUAL.
HE'S IS ALSO THE EDITOR AND A
MAJOR CONTRIBUTOR TO THE
RECENTLY PUBLISHED THE CULTURAL
MATRIX, UNDERSTANDING BLACK
YOUTH.
THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.
ORLANDO PATTERSON: THANKS FOR
HAVING ME.
BLACKMON: SO FERGUSON, BALTIMORE
, ALL OF THE INCIDENTS WE'VE HAD
IN THE COUNTRY OVER THE PAST
YEAR, WHAT'S YOUR BROAD VIEW
ABOUT WHAT HAS HAPPENED HERE AND
THE STATE OF THE CONVERSATION IN
AMERICA ABOUT RACE?
PATTERSON: WELL I THINK YOU HAVE
TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN
PROXIMATE, IMMEDIATE CAUSES OR
FAULTS, IF YOU WANT TO CALL IT
THAT, AND MORE BASIC FUNDAMENTAL
ONES.
THERE'S NO PROBLEM, NO DOUBT
ABOUT WHAT THE IMMEDIATE FAULT
WAS.
VERY INCOMPETENT, OUT OF CONTROL
POLICE IN MANY AREAS OF THE
COUNTRY.
UM, THE KILLING OF THE BLACK
YOUTH IN FERGUSON AND IN SOUTH
CAROLINA AND MORE RECENTLY IN
BALTIMORE, CLEARLY INDICATE BAD
POLICING, POSSIBLY INFLUENCED BY
RACIST ATTITUDES, ALTHOUGH I
DON'T WANT TO, YOU KNOW, SORT OF
CLAIM THAT ALL POLICEMEN ARE
RACISTS.
THAT'S CERTAINLY NOT THE CASE I
THINK.
AS A POLICEMAN WROTE ME IN
RESPONSE TO AN OP-ED I DID A
!!, A VERY INTERESTING LETTER
YESTERDAY, THINKS THE POLICE ARE
TYPICAL IN TERMS OF THE NUMBER
OF PEOPLE WHO ARE RACIST AND WHO
ARE NOT.
BUT WHAT I EMPHASIZE IS VERY
BADLY TRAINED POLICE AND A
POLICE CULTURE THAT HAS EMERGED
IN RECENT YEARS WITH A STRONG
PUNITIVE EMPHASIS OVER
INCARCERATION WHICH HAS SHIFTED
FROM SEEING VIOLENCE AS A LAST
RESORT.
AS A PROFESSIONALLY TRAINED
POLICEMAN YOU SHOULD RECOGNIZE
THAT YOUR JOB IS TO CONSTRAIN
WITHOUT RESORTING TO KILLING.
THAT COMES AS A LAST RESORT AND
IN FACT WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN
RECENT YEARS IS THAT SHOOTING TO
KILL IS THE FIRST RESORT.
NOW THAT'S WHAT YOU DO IN THE
MILITARY.
THAT'S NOT WHAT YOU DO IN A
POLICE FORCE BECAUSE YOU ARE
DEALING WITH CITIZENS NOT ENEMY
COMBATANTS.
UNFORTUNATELY A MENTALITY IS
EMERGING WITH THIS AS A
COMMONPLACE.
SO THAT'S THE APPROXIMATE CAUSE.
HOW DID WE GET INTO THIS
SITUATION?
THAT'S THE NEXT QUESTION.
AND, WHY DO POLICE FIND
THEMSELVES IN THE SITUATION
WHERE THEY HAVE TO EXERCISE
ULTIMATE RESTRAINT SO OFTEN?
AND THAT GETS INTO THE DEEPER
ISSUES.
AND, IT'S ONLY PARTIALLY
INVOLVED WITH RACE TO THE DEGREE
THAT MOST OF THE PROBLEMS
BETWEEN BLACKS AND WHITE
AMERICANS GO BACK TO LONG
HISTORY AND INSTITUTIONAL RACISM
AS IT'S CALLED, AND SO ON.
THAT'S CERTAINLY A FACTOR BUT
THE DEEPER ISSUE IS NOT ONE OF
INCREASING RESURGENT RACISM AS
SEVERAL OF THE RACE LEADERS AND
OTHERS HAVE COMMENTED ON
RECENTLY.
I WANT TO EMPHASIZE HERE IN
FACT, AMERICA HAS SEEN
TREMENDOUS PROGRESS IN RACIAL
ATTITUDES SINCE THE CIVIL RIGHTS
REVOLUTION.
AND ALL OUR SURVEYS AS WELL AS
VERY UP CLOSE, IN-DEPTH
INTERVIEWS INDICATES THAT THAT
TREND DOESN'T CHANGE.
THE WHITE POPULATION CONTINUES
TO BE INCREASINGLY LIBERAL IN
ITS ATTITUDES, YOU KNOW,
COMPARED NOW AS LATE AS THE '60S
-- THE 1960'S WHEN THE MAJORITY
OF WHITE AMERICANS THOUGHT THAT
BLACKS WERE INFERIOR AND
WOULD NOT WANT TO LIVE NEAR
THEM AND SO ONE.
AND NOW THE GREAT MAJORITY DO
NOT HOLD SUCH VIEWS.
AND I WANT TO ESPECIALLY
EMPHASIZE ONE INTERESTING THING
ABOUT AMERICAN RACIAL ATTITUDES.
THE YOUNGER GENERATION OF
AMERICANS, THE MILLENNIAL
POPULATION, EVEN PEOPLE UNDER 35
OR SO ARE EASILY THE MOST
RACIALLY TOLERANT GROUP OF
CAUCASIANS ANYWHERE IN THE
WORLD.
YOU DO NOT NEED A NATIONAL
CONVERSATION ON RACE.
BLACKMON: YOU WERE RECENTLY
QUOTED SAYING THAT YOU'RE NOT
INTERESTED IN A NATIONAL
CONVERSATION ON RACE.
AH, SO WHY DID YOU AGREE TO COME
ON THIS SHOW WHERE WE'RE HAVING
A CONVERSATION ON RACE?
PATTERSON: NO WE'RE HAVING A
CONVERSATION ON THE RECENT
PROBLEMS.
THE PROBLEM OF POLICE VIOLENCE
AND THE REACTION TO THAT
VIOLENCE BY BLACK AMERICANS
, QUITE RIGHTLY, AND THE
DISCUSSION OF AS A RESULT OF
THIS THE CONDITION OF AFRICAN
AMERICANS.
BUT MOST SPECIFICALLY OF
VIOLENCE BOTH BY THE POLICE AND
IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY.
THAT'S WHAT I FEEL WE NEED A
NATIONAL CONVERSATION ON.
THE CONVERSATION ON RACE
GENERALLY IS SIMPLY TOO VAGUE
AND MISSES THE POINT.
IT'S A WASTE OF TIME OF HAVING A
NATIONAL CONVERSATION ON RACE.
YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE WHITE FOLKS
SAYING, YOU KNOW, I'M NOT RACIST
AND DENYING THIS AND GETTING
RESENTFUL AND BLACKS SAYING, YOU
KNOW, YES IT'S RACIST.
YOU KNOW, THAT DOESN'T GET IT.
WHAT DO YOU DO WITH THAT?
BILL CLINTON TRIED THAT.
IT DIDN'T WORK.
WHAT WE NEED IS A CONVERSATION
ON OUR POLICE FORCE, HOW WE GO
ABOUT DEALING WITH OUR CITIZENS
AS POLICEMEN.
AND WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND WHAT'S
HAPPENING IN THE INNER CITIES
AND WHY THE POLICE ARE THERE SO
OFTEN.
AND THESE ARE SEEN AS
COMPLEXITIES WHICH SOME PEOPLE
MAY NOT WANT TO FACE BUT WHICH I
THINK WE HAVE TO FACE.
BLACKMON: I THINK YOU'RE GETTING
AT THE SAME FRUSTRATION OR
EMPTINESS THAT I WAS FEELING
WHEN I FIRST DECIDED, LET'S TRY
TO DO A SERIES OF THESE EPISODES
THAT HAVE THIS KIND OF A
CONVERSATION, BECAUSE MY SENSE
WAS IMMEDIATELY AFTER FERGUSON
AND THE FIRST ROUND OF PROTESTS
AND THE CONVERSATION THEN, THAT
IT WAS SO REPETITIVE.
THAT THIS WAS THE SAME SEQUENCE
OF EVENTS, THE SAME CONVERSATION
WE'VE SEEN AFTER TRAYVON MARTIN
, AFTER ALL SORTS OF THINGS THEY
GO BACK AND YOU BEGIN TO FORGET
ALL OF THE TIMES THAT WE'VE HAD
A VERSION OF THIS.
AND EVERYONE GRAVITATING TO
SCRIPTS THAT THEY PLAYED OUT
MANY TIMES BEFORE, QUITE
SINCERE, KNOWING HOW TO BE MAD
AT EACH OTHER AND PROCLAIM THAT
THINGS ARE BAD BUT NOTHING EVER
REALLY SEEMING TO GO BEYOND THAT
POINT IN THE CONVERSATION.
PATTERSON: WHAT I'M SAYING IS
THAT YOU HAVE A RATHER DIFFICULT
SITUATION WHERE MOST WHITES CAN
SAY I'M NOT A RACIST AND MOST
BLACKS CAN SAY THERE ARE RACISTS
ALL AROUND THE PLACE.
SO, BUT OVERALL, MY OWN VIEW,
AND I SPEAK AS A FOREIGNER IF
YOU LIKE.
I SEE MYSELF AS AN AMERICAN NOW.
I CAME HERE 40 YEARS AGO.
I SEE MYSELF ALSO AS AN AFRICAN
AMERICAN.
WHAT IMPRESSES ME IS LOOKING
BOTH OVER TIME THE FACT THAT THE
SITUATION HAS GOTTEN SO MUCH
BETTER.
IT'S HARD TO IMAGINE AMERICA NOW
DURING THE JIM CROWE ERA BUT
IT'S WITHIN MY LIFETIME.
SO I TEND TO PREFER TO SEE THE
GOOD.
YOU KNOW THE GLASS HALF FULL OR
THREE QUARTERS FULL RATHER THAN
A QUARTER, THREE QUARTERS EMPTY.
BUT ALSO, SINCE I WORK A LOT
WITH YOUNGER AMERICANS AS A
PROFESSOR, I ALSO SEE
PROPORTIONATELY THE REMARKABLE
CHANGES THAT HAVE TAKEN PLACE.
THIS YOUNGER GENERATION OF
CAUCASIAN AMERICANS ARE
EXCEPTIONAL IN THEIR ATTITUDES.
I ALSO DO SOMETHING ELSE WHICH I
THINK IS IMPORTANT IN THINKING
OF AMERICA, AND WE CAN MOVE AWAY
FROM THIS, IS TO COMPARE AMERICA
WITH OTHER COUNTRIES.
EUROPE.
EUROPE IS LARGELY UNTESTED.
IT'S OK FOR SWEDEN TO SAY WE'RE
REMARKABLY SORT OF LIBERAL UNTIL
YOU'RE TESTED.
AND FRANCE, YOU KNOW, I MEAN
LOOK AT WHAT'S HAPPENING THERE
NOW.
WHAT I'M SAYING IS THAT IF
YOU'RE COMPARING AMERICA WITH
OTHER COUNTRIES WE'RE VIRTUALLY
WAY AHEAD.
AND ESPECIALLY IF WE COMPARE
AMERICA WITH BRAZIL WHICH HAS
THE LARGEST BLACK POPULATION IN
THE WORLD OUTSIDE OF AFRICA.
AND MOST LARGER, TWICE THE SIZE
OF THE BLACK AMERICAN
POPULATION.
WE ARE JUST WAY AHEAD OF THEM IN
TERMS OF THE ADVANCES MADE BY
BLACK AMERICANS AND SO ON.
SO I THINK ONE SHOULD PLACE THAT
IN CONTEXT BEFORE WE GET TO WHAT
IS A RACIAL PROBLEM AND A
PROBLEM OF POLICING AND A
PROBLEM OF VIOLENCE WHICH WE CAN
GET TO THAT ISSUE IF YOU WANT TO
TALK ABOUT.
BLACKMON: AND THAT'S AN
INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT POINT THAT
YOU MAKE.
UNITED STATES, IT'S NOT JUST TO
MAKE AMERICANS FEEL BETTER IN
THE MIDST OF A DIFFICULT TIME
, BUT IT'S VERY TRUE THAT MOST
AMERICANS DON'T REALIZE THAT
UNTIL VERY RECENTLY MOST OF THE
EUROPEAN COUNTRIES HAD BLOOD
CITIZENSHIP.
SO THE NONWHITE PEOPLE LIVING IN
GERMANY FOR INSTANCE UNTIL QUITE
RECENTLY MOSTLY TURKS AND OTHER
MINORITIES HAD ALMOST NO
PROSPECT OF EVER BECOMING
CITIZENS.
PATTERSON: NOT JUST THAT.
LOOK AT JAPAN AND ITS KOREAN
MINORITY.
FOURTH GENERATION KOREANS ARE
STILL NOT RECOGNIZED.
AND CONCERNED JAPANESE PARENTS
WILL HIRE INVESTIGATORS TO CHECK
OUT WHO THEIR DAUGHTER IS
MARRYING AND IF THERE IS EVEN A
WHIFF OF BEING A KOREAN THAT'S
THE END OF IT.
BLACKMON: YES, SO IT'S AN
IMPORTANT POINT THAT IN THE
MIDST OF ALL THIS THAT THINGS
HAVE IMPROVED IN MANY, MANY
WAYS.
BUT YOU AND THIS MOST RECENT
WORK AND THE BODY OF YOUR WORK
OVER TIME, YOU'RE ALSO AT THE
VERY CENTER OF A QUITE IMPORTANT
DEBATE AMONG SCHOLARS AND IT HAS
A REFLECTION IN THE LARGER
POLITICAL AND POLICY DEBATES AS
WELL.
AND THAT IS THIS DISAGREEMENT
THAT BOILS DOWN TO IN
SOCIOLOGICAL TERMS THE PROBLEMS
THAT FACE THE COUNTRY NOW IN
TERMS OF RACE, IS IT ABOUT
STRUCTURE OR IS IT ABOUT
CULTURE?
IS IT THIS PERSISTENT LEGACY OF
THE PAST EMBODIED IN THE BANK
LENDING PRACTICES AND
DISCRIMINATORY HIRING PRACTICES
AND THE WAY THE GOVERNMENT
BEHAVES OR IS IT SOMETHING ABOUT
THE BEHAVIOR OF AFRICAN
AMERICANS AND THE CULTURAL
MATRIX THE MILIEU THAT THEY LIVE
IN?
PATTERSON: I NEVER TALK ABOUT
CULTURE AND ISOLATION ALTHOUGH I
EMPHASIZE CULTURE BECAUSE IT'S
BEEN DEEMPHASIZED.
I ALSO ALWAYS SEE CULTURE AS
INTERACTING WITH SOCIOECONOMIC
FACTORS.
BUT YES, IT WAS NECESSARY FOR
SOMEONE TO EMPHASIZE THE PAST OF
HISTORY MATTERS.
AND YOU AS AN HISTORIAN WOULD
KNOW WHAT I MEAN.
AND IT MAY SURPRISE YOU THAT ONE
SHOULD EMPHASIZE THAT HISTORY
MATTERS ESPECIALLY IN A PLACE
LIKE VIRGINIA WHERE HISTORY IS
ALL AROUND YOU.
YOU CAN'T STEP OUTSIDE THIS
BUILDING WITHOUT SEEING HISTORY
EVERYWHERE.
ONE OF THE CURIOUS THINGS ABOUT
AMERICANS THOUGH IS THAT WHILE
THEY'RE HAPPY TO EMPHASIZE
HISTORY WHERE HISTORY GLORIFIES,
THERE'S USUALLY A RELUCTANCE TO
EMPHASIZE HISTORY WHERE HISTORY
EMPHASIZES THE NOT SO GLORIFIED
FEATURES OF AMERICA.
SLAVERY, WHICH IS A GOOD CHUNK
OF OUR HISTORY.
AND THE NEO-SLAVERY SYSTEM WHICH
YOU HAVE WRITTEN SO WONDERFULLY
ABOUT, SO PENETRATINGLY ABOUT,
BUT PERSISTENT RIGHT INTO THE
1940'S.
YOU CAN'T WRITE THAT OFF.
THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT.
AMERICA THEN IS DISTINCTIVE IN
BEING THE ONLY EUROPEAN DERIVED
COUNTRY IN WHICH SLAVERY EXISTED
IN THE SOCIETY.
YOU SEE, BRITAIN HAD SLAVERY.
THEY INTRODUCED IT AND SO DID
FRANCE AND SO ON.
WHILE WE'RE THOUSANDS OF MILES
AWAY FROM BRITAIN, FRANCE AND SO
ON, IT WAS HERE IN AMERICA.
AND IT IS AN IMPORTANT FEATURE
IN AMERICAN SOCIETY STARTING
HERE IN VIRGINIA.
SLAVERY THEN AND ALL ITS
CONSEQUENCES BECAME CONSTITUTED
IN MANY FASCINATING WAYS.
AND ONE OF COURSE IS THE
DEVELOPMENT OF RACISM TO JUSTIFY
THIS HARSH TREATMENT OF AFRICAN
AMERICANS.
BUT THERE ARE CULTURAL
IMPLICATIONS OF SLAVERY.
SEVERAL OF THEM WENT BEYOND JUST
RACISM AND THE BELIEF THAT
BLACKS ARE DIFFERENT.
IT'S THE IDEA OF WHAT I CALL
NATIVE ALIENATION, THE FACT THAT
BLACKS DO NOT BELONG.
THAT'S TRUE WITH ALL SLAVE
SOCIETIES BY THE WAY.
IF YOU FIND A SLAVE AS SOMEONE
WHO DOESN'T BELONG TO HIMSELF,
IT IS BECAUSE HE BELONGS TO
SOMEONE ELSE.
WHEN THE INSTITUTION WAS
ABOLISHED LEGALLY, THE CULTURE
OF SLAVERY PERSISTED.
AND AS YOU POINTED OUT IT
PERSISTED IN SOME LEGAL RESPECTS
TOO.
BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY THE IDEA OF
A GROUP NOT BELONGING WAS AN
IMPORTANT FEATURE OF THAT.
AND THERE ARE LINGERING ELEMENTS
OF THAT EVEN IN THE ATTITUDES
TOWARDS OBAMA.
IT IS A FACT THAT WHAT PEOPLE
FOCUS ON IS HIS BIRTH.
SO THAT'S ONE ELEMENT OF SOCIETY
WHICH PERSISTS WITHIN THE
CULTURE OF THE DOMINANT GROUP
AND I SPEAK ABOUT CULTURE ON
BOTH SIDES, OK?
THE EXCLUSION OF BLACKS AS FULL
MEMBERS OF THE SOCIETY.
IT PERSISTS ALSO IN WHAT I THINK
IS ONE OF THE BIGGEST PROBLEMS
THAT AFRICAN AMERICANS FACE AND
WHICH IS A RELIC OF THE PAST
, WHICH IS SEGREGATION.
BLACKS ARE ALMOST AS SEGREGATED
NOW AS THEY WERE WHEN MARTIN
LUTHER SPOKE AGAINST IT.
WILL EMPHASIZE THIS WHEN HE
TALKED ABOUT THE BELOVED
COMMUNITY, HE IS TALKING ABOUT
INTEGRATION.
INTEGRATION OF OUR SCHOOLS,
INTEGRATION IN SOCIETY.
SO THE OTHER QUESTION OF COURSE
, IS, WHAT DOES THIS LONG
HISTORY DO, NOT JUST THE WHITES
AND THEIR ATTITUDES IN TERMS OF
RACISM, EXCLUDING THEM, BUT TO
THE BLACKS.
PEOPLE DON'T LIKE TO TALK ABOUT
THIS, BUT WE HAVE TO, BECAUSE
THERE WERE BOTH POSITIVE AND
NEGATIVE CONSEQUENCES OF THAT
HISTORY.
THE POSITIVE SIDE, THE
RESILIENCE, THE REMARKABLE
CULTURE WHICH AFRICAN AMERICANS
IN SPITE OF ALL THEIR OPPRESSION
WERE ABLE TO DEVELOP.
A CULTURE WHICH GREATLY INFORMED
THE NATIONAL CULTURE.
PEOPLE DON'T SEEM TO RECOGNIZE
THAT.
ONE OF THE THINGS WE EMPHASIZE
IN THE CULTURAL MATRIX WAS THE
EXTRAORDINARY EFFECT OF THE
BLACK MINORITY ON THE GENERAL
CULTURE.
NOT JUST THE POPULAR CULTURE IN
SPORTS, MUSIC, ARTS, DRAMA,
FASHION AND SO ON BUT
CULTURE AND JAZZ WHICH IS OUR
CLASSICAL MUSIC AND IN BALLET
AND SO ON.
AND ONE OF THE GREAT PARADOXES
OF THE BLACK MINORITY IS THE
EXTRAORDINARY, THE GREAT
INTEGRATION CULTURALLY IN THE
SOCIETY ACCOMPANIED BY THE
UNUSUAL LEVEL OF EXCLUSION
SOCIALLY.
SOCIAL EXCLUSION AND CULTURAL
INTEGRATION.
IT'S QUITE REMARKABLE.
YOU SEE IT EVERY TIME YOU TURN
ON YOUR TELEVISION AND YOU SEE
IT IN THE FACT THAT THAT MOTHER
-- THE FACT THAT THE NATIONAL
MOTHER CONFESSOR IS A BLACK
WOMAN, OPRAH WINFREY.
AND YOU SEE AN ASTONISHING SORT
OF REVERENCE IN BLACK ATHLETES
AND SO ON.
BUT THEN YOU GET THE SAME
REVERENCE ACCOMPANIED BY
EXCLUSION SOCIALLY.
IT'S ONE OF THE GREAT PUZZLES OF
OUR AMERICAN LIFE.
BLACKMON: MUCH OF WHAT YOU HAVE
BEEN DESCRIBING IN TERMS OF THE
CULTURAL ARGUMENT IS STILL IN
THE GENERAL CATEGORY, ARGUABLY,
THINGS THAT AFRICAN AMERICANS
ARE NOT NECESSARILY IN CONTROL
OF.
SORT OF THE CREATION OF A
SEGREGATED WORLD IN WHICH
AFRICAN AMERICANS ARE SEPARATED
AND THEN THE IMPACT OF THAT AND
TO SOME DEGREE THAT THERE'S
SOMETHING BEING IMPOSED ON
AFRICAN AMERICANS.
BUT MUCH OF WHAT YOU ARGUE ABOUT
HAS TO DO WITH THE OTHER SIDE.
THAT AFRICAN AMERICANS ARE ALSO
NOT DOING WHAT THEY SHOULD DO IN
SOME RESPECT.
PATTERSON: OK, SO LET'S GET TO
THAT.
I WANT TO EMPHASIZE CULTURE IS
COMPLEX.
BUT YOU EXPLAINED IT VERY NICELY
THERE THE CONSEQUENCES OF WHAT'S
DONE TO PEOPLE.
WHAT ORIGINATES A PROBLEM?
WHAT INITIATES A PROBLEM?
IT'S NOT NECESSARILY WHAT
CONTINUES TO BE THE FACTOR
PRIMARILY EXPLAINING ITS
PERSISTENCE.
AND PEOPLE OFTEN SAY TO ME, AH,
BUT WHY IS IT THAT THE NUMBER OF
SINGLE PARENT FAMILIES INCREASED
SO SUBSTANTIALLY AFTER THE
1960'S.
THAT COULD NOT HAVE TO DO WITH
SLAVERY.
I SAY NO THAT'S A SILLY ARGUMENT
, BECAUSE TO SAY THAT SOMETHING
INITIATES A PROCESS IS NOT TO
SAY OTHER FACTORS DO NOT THEN
REINFORCE IT.
AND IF YOU HAVE A FRAGILE
SITUATION COMING FROM THE PAST
YOU'RE MORE OPEN TO THESE NEW
INFERENCES SUCH AS UNEMPLOYMENT,
SUCH AS ESPECIALLY THE MALE
UNEMPLOYMENT, SUCH AS POOR
SCHOOLS AND SO ON, SUCH AS
GHETTOIZATION AND VIOLENCE.
AND THAT IS THE SINGLE MOST
IMPORTANT INTERNAL FACTOR.
NOW THE STATE, VERY OFTEN, LET
ME SAY, I'VE BEEN ACCUSED OF
BEING A CONSERVATIVE BECAUSE I
EMPHASIZE THIS.
IT'S NOTHING OF THE SORT.
BUT I'M GUILTY OF GUILT BY
ASSOCIATION HERE BECAUSE
CONSERVATIVES DO EMPHASIZE THIS
FACTOR.
WHAT THEY TEND TO DO IS SAY WELL
LOOK, THIS PROBLEM OF SINGLE
PARENTING IS, YOU KNOW, I MEAN,
RACISM HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH
THAT.
WE HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IT,
SO LET THE STATE WASH ITS HANDS
OF IT.
NO, NO, NO.
IT IS TRUE THAT IT ORIGINATES IN
CENTURIES OF STATE SANCTIONED
SLAVERY AND STATE SANCTIONED JIM
CROWE.
AND AS YOU'VE WRITTEN SO
POIGNANTLY ABOUT UNFAIR
IMPRISONMENT OF MEN AND SO ON
THE STATE HAS A MAJOR
RESPONSIBILITY IN REPAIRING THIS
TO THE DEGREE THAT IT CAN.
AND IT CAN BE REPAIRED BECAUSE
ONE OF THE POINTS I EMPHASIZE IN
THE CULTURAL MATRIX IS TO SAY
THAT SOMETHING HAS AN HISTORICAL
AND CULTURAL BACKGROUND IS NOT
TO SAY THAT IT CAN'T BE FIXED.
CULTURE IS NOT IMMUTABLE.
WHICH IS ONE REASON WHY LIBERALS
DON'T LIKE CULTURAL
EXPLANATIONS.
OH YOU'RE SAYING IT'S CULTURAL
THEREFORE YOU'RE SAYING IT'S
YOUR FAULT, THEREFORE THERE'S
NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT.
NO.
LET ME GIVE YOU SOME DRAMATIC
EXAMPLES OF CULTURE CHANGING
QUITE SIGNIFICANTLY RIGHT HERE
IN THE SOUTH.
JIM CROWE.
AN INSTITUTION THAT WAS BUILT UP
OVER CENTURIES WAS DISMANTLED
WITHIN A FEW DECADES.
JUST THINK ABOUT THAT.
BUT THINK ABOUT AN EVEN MORE
DRAMATIC RECENT EXAMPLE.
THE ATTITUDE TOWARDS GAY
MARRIAGE.
WAS IT ONE OF THE JUSTICES IN
THE SUPREME COURT WHO STRUGGLED
WITH THIS, WHO NOW SAY LOOK,
THIS THING HAS EXISTED FOR
MILLENNIA.
AND WE WANTED TO CHANGE
SOMETHING BUT WE SEE RIGHT UNDER
OUR EYES WITHIN THE PAST DECADE
A SET OF ATTITUDES BUILT UP FOR
THOUSANDS OF YEARS CHANGING.
SO CULTURE CAN CHANGE.
AND WITH THE RIGHT SUPPORT FROM
THE SOCIAL AND ECONOMIC FORCES
AND LEGAL FORCES.
AND THAT'S WHERE I COME BACK TO
THE VIEW THAT MY EXPLANATIONS
ARE NEVER PURELY CULTURAL
BECAUSE CULTURE ALWAYS EXISTS
WITHIN A CONTEXT.
IF IT'S REINFORCED BY THE SOCIAL
CONTEXT IT WILL PERSIST.
AND IN THAT SENSE SINGLE
PARENTING WILL PERSIST IF IT'S
REINFORCED BY A SOCIAL AND
ECONOMIC ENVIRONMENT WHICH
NEGLECTS IT.
BLACKMON: BUT YOU'RE ALSO
ACKNOWLEDGING VERY MUCH SO THIS
INTERPLAY.
PATTERSON: YES.
BLACKMON: WE WANT TO LOOK TO THE
FUTURE AS WELL.
SO THE QUESTION COMES BACK TO
NOT JUST WHAT THE EXPLANATION IS
FOR THE SITUATION WE ARE NOW IN
TODAY BUT WHERE SHOULD THE
EMPHASIS BE IN TERMS OF GOING
FORWARD?
AND WHAT YOU WERE JUST TALKING
ABOUT WOULD SUGGEST THAT IT'S
THE ROLE OF THE STATE TO
INTERVENE IN TERMS OF A SINGLE
MOTHER WHO NEEDS SOME KIND OF
SUPPORT THAT MAKES IT WHERE SHE
SHE COULD BE A BETTER PARENT.
PATTERSON: IT'S BOTH.
IT'S BOTH.
BECAUSE I DO THINK AND I
EMPHASIZE IN THE LAST CHAPTER OF
THE BOOK WHEN I GO THROUGH ALL
THE WAYS IN WHICH THE GOVERNMENT
CAN BE HELPFUL, I ALSO POINT OUT
THAT AFRICAN AMERICANS HAVE HAD
ONE GREAT REVOLUTION, THE CIVIL
RIGHTS REVOLUTION WHICH
ADDRESSED THE EXTERNAL PROBLEM,
OK, SUCCESSFULLY.
THAT PERHAPS THEY SHOULD THINK
ABOUT AN INTERNAL REVOLUTION
IN FIXING THE PROBLEM.
BLACKMON: WE HAVE THIS
PERCEPTION THAT ONE OF THE BIG
PROBLEMS AMONG IN AFRICAN
AMERICAN COMMUNITIES IN THE
PAST, TEEN PREGNANCY WAS AN
OFTEN BROUGHT UP FACTOR.
AND YET THAT'S SOMETHING WHILE
THE TEEN PREGNANCY GIRLS IS
ACTUALLY DECLINING DRAMATICALLY
AND OVERALL FOR THE COUNTRY.
IT HAS FALLEN BY 50%.
AND SO IT'S ALMOST LIKE THE WHAT
WE ARE SEEING IS AN EVOLUTION OF
WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A SINGLE
PARENT AND IS SOMETHING THAT
ISN'T AS DEBILITATING AS PERHAPS
IT ONCE WAS.
WELL, LOOK, LET'S GET INTO THAT
SHALL WE?
PATTERSON: IT'S COMPLEX BUT I
THINK WE SHOULD BE CLEAR IT UP.
BECAUSE ONE OF THE THINGS I HEAR
BEING SAID A LOT IS THE NUMBER
OF WHITE WOMEN WHO ARE HAVING
KIDS OUT OF WEDLOCK IS AS GREAT
AS WHEN MOYNIHAN WROTE IN THE
1960'S AND MID-1960'S AND THE
PERCENTAGE IS THE SAME AMONG
BLACKS AND SO ON.
ERGO, THIS IS A PROBLEM WHICH IS
NOT DISTINCTIVE.
WE'RE COMPARING OUR APPLES WITH
PINEAPPLES HERE.
OK?
AND THAT'S WHY I KEEP REFERRING
TO THE SCANDINAVIAN SITUATION
BECAUSE THE WHITE SITUATION IS
MORE LIKE THE SCANDINAVIAN
SITUATION.
THAT IS TO SAY THAT MOST WHITE
WOMEN WHO END UP AS A SINGLE
PARENTS COME SO AS A RESULT OF
DIVORCE.
THAT IS TO SAY THE KIDS ARE BORN
TO PARENTS WHO ARE EITHER
COHABITING OR GETTING MARRIED
AFTERWARDS.
MOST OF THEM TOO WHO GET
DIVORCED GET REMARRIED.
WHITE AMERICANS HAVE A PROBLEM
BUT THEY LOVE TO GET MARRIED AND
SO THEY STAY MARRIED.
THE FATHERS INVOLVED RECOGNIZE
THE KIDS AND SUPPORT THEM TO A
MUCH GREATER DEGREE.
IN FACT YOU HAVE A LOT OF
CUSTODIAL BATTLES AS TO WHO'S
GOING TO KEEP THE KIDS.
SO IT'S A DIFFERENT SITUATION.
THE KIDS, WHITE KIDS END UP
GROWING UP IF NOT WITH THEIR
BIOLOGICAL PARENTS, OFTEN WITH A
TWO PARENT STABLE SITUATION WITH
SUPPORT.
I OFTEN SAY IT'S NOT OUT OF
WEDLOCK WHICH IS THE PROBLEM BUT
OUT OF BEDROCK.
KIDS NEED A BEDROCK OF STABILITY
OF AT LEAST A COUPLE OF ADULTS
, WHOEVER THEY MAY BE.
THIS IS NOT THE CASE OF THE
BLACK AMERICAN COMMUNITY.
MOST OF THE KIDS BORN OUT OF
WEDLOCK, IN WHICH THE PARENTS
ARE NO LONGER TOGETHER AND THAT
REMAINS THE CASE.
BLACKMON: SO DOES THAT MEAN
THEN, TO WHAT YOU JUST SAID,
DOES THAT THEN SUGGEST THAT A
BILL COSBY RESPONSE OF A DECADE
AGO, THAT IT IS TIME FOR BLACK
AMERICA TO CONFRONT THAT THESE
MORAL PROBLEMS, THESE ISSUES
WITH ITS CONSTITUTIONAL FIBER,
DOES THAT SUGGEST THAT THAT'S
WHERE THE CORE PROBLEM LIES IN
AMERICA?
PATTERSON: HE OVEREMPHASIZED, HE
OVERSIMPLIFIED, BUT IT IS AN
ISSUE.
THE QUESTION IS HOW WE SOLVE THE
PROBLEM?
WHETHER THE SOLUTION THAT
AFRICAN AMERICANS ADOPT THE
MARITAL PATTERNS OF WHITE
AMERICANS OR NOT IS
QUESTIONABLE.
BECAUSE THERE WAS A POLICY, A
PROGRAM IN WHICH OVER $300
MILLION  WERE SPENT BY THE BUSH
ADMINISTRATION, THE HEALTH AND
FAMILIES PROGRAM.
I DON'T KNOW IF YOU KNOW ABOUT
THAT, WHICH WAS DESIGNED TO DO
JUST THAT.
IT'S WAS A KIND, IT'S A FAILED
CULTURAL POLICY IF YOU LIKE.
AFRICAN AMERICANS WERE TO BE
COACHED INTO PROPER MARRIAGE AND
SO ON.
IT DIDN'T WORK.
THERE IS ONE EXCEPTION I THINK,
I FORGET WHAT STATE BUT IT WAS
BY AND LARGE A FAILURE.
IT'S A FACT, ONE OF THE CHAPTERS
IN THIS BOOK EXPLORES IN DEPTH,
BECAUSE I WAS VERY INTERESTED IN
THAT.
I LOOK AT ALL POLICY OPTIONS.
I SAY HOW DID THE BUSH POLICY
OPTION WORK?
IT DIDN'T WORK.
IN FACT, NOT ONLY DID IT FAIL
BUT IN ONE CASE, THAT OF
BALTIMORE, IT TURNS OUT THAT
WHEN THESE INNER CITY PEOPLE
WERE TAKEN IN AND COACHED AND SO
ON, THEY WENT BACK HOME AND
SAID, WELL SO THIS IS WHAT A
HEALTHY FAMILY IS SUPPOSED TO BE
LIKE.
WELL WE DON'T HAVE ONE AND
SPLIT.
IT HAD THE VERY OPPOSITE OF WHAT
WAS INTENDED.
SO THAT IS NOT GOING TO WORK.
MY POSITION, IT MAY BE A COP
OUT, IS I'D RATHER LEAVE IT TO
THE WISDOM OF THE AFRICAN
AMERICAN CROWD IF YOU LIKE AS TO
WHAT SOLUTION IS GOING TO
EMERGE.
WE HAVE A SOLUTION IN WHICH A
YOU KNOW, A SINGLE WOMAN IS
STRONGLY SUPPORTED BY OTHERS
EVEN THOUGH THEY DON'T GET
MARRIED.
I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE SOLUTION
IS.
IN THE SAME WAY THAT ONE DIDN'T
KNOW WHAT THE CIVIL RIGHTS
SOLUTION WAS GOING TO BE UNTIL
MARTIN LUTHER KING AND THE
SOUTHERN CHRISTIAN GROUP AND
OTHER GROUPS DEVELOPED IT.
BUT IT IS A PROBLEM WHICH SHOULD
BE RECOGNIZED.
BUT LET'S NOT JUST EMPHASIZE
THAT BECAUSE THERE ARE OTHER
PROBLEMS IN THE AFRICAN AMERICAN
COMMUNITY.
INTERNAL PROBLEMS.
THEY TO SOME EXTENT DERIVE FROM
THIS BUT ALSO DERIVE FROM
GHETTOIZATION AND THAT RELATES
TO THE PROBLEM OF HOW THE POLICE
GOT INVOLVED WHICH IS THE
VIOLENCE IN THE INNER CITY.
BLACKMON: BECAUSE WE'VE
CERTAINLY HAVE HAD OVER THIS
PAST YEAR THE INTERPLAY BETWEEN
THE POLICE AND AFRICAN AMERICANS
IN THE INNER CITY AND THIS
LARGER DEBATE ABOUT MASS
INCARCERATION.
THIS LARGER DEBATE ABOUT THE
FEROCITY OF POLICE ENFORCEMENT
IN RECENT YEARS.
ALL OF THESE THINGS COME
TOGETHER.
IN THE PAST YEAR IN THE POST
FERGUSON DEBATE THE BEHAVIOR OF
POLICE HAS BEEN A REAL FOCUS ON
THIS AND I THINK YOU WOULD HAVE
ARGUED THAT THAT HAS BEEN OVER
EMPHASIZED AND NOT ENOUGH
ATTENTION TO THE BEHAVIOR OF AS
IN THE CASE OF FERGUSON,
WHERE IN THE END IT TURNED OUT
THE YOUNG AFRICAN-AMERICAN MAN
WAS --
PATTERSON: YEAH, IT'S BOTH AND
TO UNDERSTAND WHY WE HAVE TO GO
BACK TO HOW THIS ORIGINATED.
IT'S BEEN AROUND FOR SOME TIME.
IT EXPLODED IN PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE
AND CONSCIOUSNESS NOW.
BUT BLACK AMERICANS HAVE BEEN
SUFFERING THIS FOR A LONG TIME.
AND WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND HOW IT
ORIGINATED AND WHAT HAPPENED.
THIS GOES BACK TO THE EARLY
1970'S HISTORY AGAIN.
THE GROWTH IN VIOLENCE
ESPECIALLY IN THE INNER CITIES
AS A RESULT OF DRUG ADDICTION
AND GANGS.
HERE IS THE GREAT IRONY OF HOW
THIS THING ORIGINATED, THE
EMPHASIS ON LAW AND ORDER, THE
EMPHASIS ON INCARCERATION AND ON
DRACONIAN LAWS.
NEW YORK, ONE OF THE MOST
LIBERAL STATES IN THE NATION
UNDER A LIBERAL REPUBLICAN,
NELSON ROCKEFELLER, WHO
INTRODUCED THE FIRST REALLY
HARSH SET OF LAWS.
WITH EMPHASIS ON INCARCERATION
FOR DRUG CRIMES.
NOW, ROCKEFELLER, WHEN HE
INTRODUCED THESE SERIES OF
DRACONIAN LAWS, I MEAN THE
LIBERAL COMMUNITY IN NEW YORK
SAW WHAT THE CONSEQUENCES WOULD
BE AND WERE EXTREMELY CRITICAL,
VERY CRITICAL.
TO WHOM DID ROCKEFELLER TURN FOR
SUPPORT IN PASSING THESE LAWS?
HE TURNED TO THE BLACK LEADERS
IN NEW YORK, ESPECIALLY IN
HARLEM WHO CAME OUT IN FORCE.
AND THERE'S A BOOK COMING OUT
SOON ON THIS BY MIKE FORTNER
CALLED BLACK SILENT MAJORITY
WHICH EXPLORES THIS IN GREAT
DETAIL.
HOW ON EARTH DID WE GET INTO
THIS SITUATION WHERE AMERICA
BECAME THIS COUNTRY?
THE MOST DRACONIAN LAWS, MASS
INCARCERATION.
WHAT HAPPENED WAS THAT NELSON
ROCKEFELLER GOT THE FULL SUPPORT
OF BLACK MEN BECAUSE THEY WERE
CATCHING HELL.
THEY WERE TERRORIZED BY WHAT WAS
HAPPENING IN HARLEM AND OTHER
INNER CITY COMMUNITIES.
MASSIVE INCREASE IN DRUG
ADDICTION.
HEROIN AT THAT TIME.
THIS WAS BEFORE THE CRACK
EPIDEMIC AND GUN VIOLENCE.
AND THEY WANTED RELIEF AND
WEREN'T GETTING IT.
BECAUSE THE OTHER EARLY PERIOD
ORIGINATED IN THE SOUTH AND YOU
KNOW BLACK CRIME WAS REALLY NOT
PAID MUCH ATTENTION.
THEY WANTED PROTECTION.
WE'RE CITIZENS.
WE DESERVE PROTECTION.
SO THEY SUPPORTED HIM AND WITH
THEIR SUPPORT THAT'S HOW THE
LAWS GOT THROUGH.
BECAUSE IF THEY HAD COME OUT
STRONGLY AGAINST IT THEY
WOULDN'T HAVE WON.
NOW TALK ABOUT UNINTENDED
CONSEQUENCES.
THE LIBERAL COMMUNITY SAW THE
CONSEQUENCES, BUT WHAT HAPPENED
WAS THAT WE SHIFTED TOWARDS THEN
THIS DRACONIAN EMPHASIS, THIS
LAW AND ORDER EMPHASIS WHICH THE
RIGHT BEEN PICKED UP AND THE
BLACK COMMUNITY FOR A LONG TIME
COULDN'T SUPPORT BECAUSE EVEN IN
THE 1980'S WE HAD THE CRACK
EPIDEMIC.
AND IT WAS LIVING IN A STATE OF
SIEGE IN THE INNER CITIES.
ONE CANNOT NEGLECT THAT AND
PEOPLE ARE NEGLECTING THIS.
BLACKMON: YEAH, AND IT'S OFTEN
FORGOTTEN TODAY AS RECENTLY AS
THE EARLY 1990S IF YOU LOOK AT
THE POLLING THE AFRICAN AMERICAN
OVERWHELMINGLY SUPPORTED THREE
STRIKES YOU'RE OUT.
THESE VERY DRACONIAN MEASURES.
PATTERSON: THEY DID SO
UNFORTUNATELY, GIVEN THE
CONSEQUENCES.
MORE IMPORTANTLY, INSTEAD OF
FOCUSING ON THIS RELATIVELY
SMALL MINORITY OF INNER CITY
YOUTHS WHO WERE CREATING THE
PROBLEM AS A RESULT OF YEARS OF
NEGLECT AND ALL THE REST OF IT,
NO FATHERS, GANGS AND SO ON.
THEY THEN BEGAN TO GENERALIZE
AND PROFILE THE WHOLE BLACK
COMMUNITY.
AND AS WE EMPHASIZE AND IN
ESPECIALLY MY LONG CHAPTER
, AFRICAN AMERICANS IN THE INNER
CITIES AND OUT ARE AMONG THE
MOST LAW ABIDING GROUP OF PEOPLE
IN AMERICA.
THEY'RE ALSO THE MOST GOD
FEARING AND CHURCH GOING GROUP
OF PEOPLE IN AMERICA.
THIS IS THE 80% OF AFRICAN
AMERICANS WHO ARE THE ONES
CALLING FOR POLICE PROTECTION.
BUT INSTEAD OF GETTING POLICE
PROTECTION THEY GOT POLICE
ABUSE.
THERE YOU HAVE IN A NUTSHELL THE
PROBLEMS.
THEY GENERALIZE IT.
THEY DISRESPECTED THE ENTIRE
BLACK COMMUNITY.
SO THE BLACK COMMUNITY FOUND
ITSELF BETWEEN A ROCK AND A HARD
PLACE.
A ROCK OF POLICE BRUTALITY AND A
HARD PLACE OF THE MINORITY OF
THE DISCONNECTED GANG BASED
YOUTH WITH THEIR VIOLENCE.
AND INSTEAD OF BEING PROTECTED
THEY FOUND THEMSELVES, YOU KNOW,
BEING DISRESPECTED BY THE POLICE
AND LIVING IN AN ENVIRONMENT
WHICH IS REALLY, I MEAN,
HELLISH.
BLACKMON: WELL THIS BRINGS US
BACK TO I THINK THE TENSION
BETWEEN SOME OF YOUR
INTERPRETATION OF THINGS AND
SOME OTHER EXPERTS AND THAT IS
THAT WE HAVE THIS OVERWHELMING
SUPPORT WITH ALL AMERICANS AND
CERTAINLY AFRICAN AMERICANS
BECAUSE THEY SEE THE EXISTENTIAL
THREAT OF CRIME IN THE '70S AND
THREAT OF RISING CRIME IN THE
1970'S -- THREAT OF RISING CRIME
IN THE 1970'S, 1980'S, 1990'S,
AND IN FACT GENERAL HOLDER TELLS
THE STORY OF WHEN HE WAS AN
ATTORNEY IN WASHINGTON OF GOING
UP TO A HOUSING PROJECT IN
WASHINGTON, D.C. AND MEETING
WITH THE TENANTS ASSOCIATION AND
SAYING WE'VE GOT A BUNCH OF
IDEAS ABOUT PROGRAMS TO TRY TO
DIVERT YOUNG MEN AWAY FROM
PRISON AND TRY TO AVOID SENDING
THEM AWAY AND ALL THE LITTLE OLD
LADIES WHO WERE IN THE TENANTS
ASSOCIATION OFTEN WERE BLACK,
AND SAID WELL THAT ALL SOUNDS
GREAT, GOOD DO WHATEVER YOU CAN
TO HELP THE KIDS OUT BUT BEFORE
YOU LEAVE TONIGHT WILL YOU GO
AHEAD AND ARREST ALL THE GUYS
WHO WERE SITTING ON THE FRONT
STEP OF MY APARTMENT.
SO THERE WAS THIS AMONG THOSE
WHO FELT THREATENED THERE WAS
STRONG SUPPORT FOR THIS.
BUT NOW 20 YEARS HAVE GONE BY IN
WHICH CRIME RATES HAVE PLUMMETED
FOR WHATEVER REASON, PERHAPS THE
ONE YOU WERE SUGGESTING EARLIER.
BUT SO ARGUABLY BLACK BEHAVIOR
HAS CHANGED QUITE DRAMATICALLY.
IT HAS ACTUALLY DONE WHAT YOU
WOULD SAY, BILL COSBY WOULD SAY
SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED.
THAT THERE'S BEEN GREAT CHANGE
IN MUCH LESS CRIME BEING
COMMITTED BY THIS POPULATION OF
FOLKS AND YET IT IS A STRUCTURAL
THING.
A STRUCTURAL ELEMENT OF SOCIETY
IN TERMS OF THE POLICE AND THE
GOVERNMENT THAT IS STILL
BEHAVING AS IF IT WAS 1990.
PATTERSON: IT'S CHANGED, THE
CRIME RATE HAS GONE DOWN
SUBSTANTIALLY AS SEVERAL PEOPLE
LIKE OURSELVES HAVE POINTED OUT
, BUT IS STILL LEVELED OFF AT A
CATASTROPHIC RATE I'M AFRAID.
THE MURDER RATE IS EIGHT TIMES
THE NATIONAL AVERAGE IN THE
INNER CITIES.
BLACKMON: AMONG AFRICAN
AMERICANS, YEAH.
PATTERSON: IN FACT WITHIN THE
INNER CITIES IT'S EVEN GREATER.
IT'S MORE LIKE TEN TIMES.
AND WHAT'S MORE THE BAD NEWS IS
THAT IT IS BEGINNING TO INCREASE
AGAIN AMONG TEENAGERS, OK, SINCE
2002.
SO YOU CAN EMPHASIZE THE DECLINE
WHICH IS GOOD WHICH
CRIMINOLOGISTS HAVE HAD A HARD
TIME EXPLAINING.
WE'RE NOT QUITE SURE WHY.
BUT YOU SHOULD POINT OUT THAT IT
IT!S STILL THE CASE THAT THERE
IS A SENSE OF LIVING ON THE
SIEGE.
YOUR GIRLS HAVE TO BE LOCKED UP
AND YOU'RE TERRIFIED EVERY TIME
YOUR KID GOES OUT.
BLACKMON: SO WHAT SHOULD HAPPEN
THEN, GIVEN WHAT YOU JUST SAID?
PATTERSON: THERE'S SEVERAL
THINGS THAT SHOULD HAPPEN.
ONE OF THEM IS NOT VERY POPULAR
BUT IT'S BEEN IN THE NEWS AGAIN.
IT'S GHETTOIZATION IS PART OF
THE PROBLEM, LIVING IN CRAMPED
SPACES WITH BAD SCHOOLS AND IN
WHICH KIDS ARE SORT OF, AND I
CAN'T EMPHASIZE THIS POINT
ENOUGH, KIDS HAVE GOT TO HAVE
ADULT SUPERVISION.
AS A SPECIES THAT'S THE WAY WE
ARE.
WE DIFFER FROM OTHER SPECIES IN
THE SENSE THAT OUR HEAD IS TOO
BIG SO THAT WHEN WE'RE BORN IT'S
STILL UNFORMED, STILL TOO SMALL.
AND IT GROWS, IT GROWING RIGHT
TO TEENAGE YEARS AND SO ON.
BLACKMON: I HAVE AN 18 YEAR OLD
SO I'VE LEARNED IT'S A VERY
DIRECT EXPERIENCE.
PATTERSON: WHAT IT MEANS IS THAT
WE NEED CONSTANT ATTENTION
GROWING UP.
IF KIDS DON'T GET THAT, YOU'LL
HAVE PROBLEMS.
IN THE!!!!!!BLACKMON: IN THE
HAD DURING THE CLINTON YEARS AND
A BIT BEYOND THAT YOU HAD
SEVERAL THINGS THAT HAPPENED,
SOME OF THEM MORE DELIBERATE
THAN OTHERS.
BUT THROUGH THE HOPE VI PROGRAM
ALMOST ALL THE PUBLIC HOUSING
PROJECTS PARTICULARLY IN URBAN
AREAS AWAY FROM THE NORTHEAST
, TREMENDOUS NUMBERS OF PUBLIC
HOUSING COMPLEXES WERE
DEMOLISHED AND RECONSTRUCTED AT
IN A VERY DIFFERENT WAY WHICH
WERE DRAMATICALLY FEWER PEOPLE
AND SO YOU HAD A DISPLACEMENT.
THEY ALSO TYPICALLY DIDN'T ALLOW
ANY MEN BACK IN, IF THEY HAD A
MOTHER AND CHILDREN BUT ANYONE
WITH A, ANY KIND OF CRIMINAL
RECORD COULDN'T COME BACK IN.
BUT NONETHELESS THAT SEEMED TO
DISPERSE A TROUBLED POPULATION
IN WAYS THAT SOME OF THE
PREDICTED NEGATIVE CONSEQUENCES
OF THAT WERE THESE DISPLACED
FOLKS WHO HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN
BAD BEHAVIOR IN THE PAST OR JUST
GOING TO BE BAD IN ANOTHER PLACE
BUT INSTEAD THEY SORT OF
DISAPPEARED.
BUT THEN THE OTHER THING WAS
WELFARE REFORM AND THEN THE
THIRD THING WAS, AND NOW IT HAS
A BAD NAME, THROUGH THE BANK
COMMUNITY REINVESTMENT ACT YOU
HAD BANKS COMPELLED TO FINALLY
GIVE LOANS TO A LOT OF POOR
PEOPLE, MANY OF THEM WHO
COULDN'T PAY THEM BACK, AND THAT
LED TO A RECESSION OR WAS A PART
OF THE RECESSION IN 2008.
NONETHELESS YOU HAD TREMENDOUS
GROWTH OF VERY MODEST INCOME
NEIGHBORHOODS THAT AFRICAN
AMERICANS MOVED INTO AND THERE
WAS THIS GREAT DISPERSAL AND
THAT COINCIDED WITH THE FALL IN
CRIME.
PATTERSON: YES IT DID AND THAT'S
BEEN NOTED.
BUT LET'S EMPHASIZE ANOTHER
FACTOR WHICH IS AFRICAN AMERICAN
MEN AND THE PROBLEMS THEY FACE.
BECAUSE ONE OF THE FACTORS
EXPLAINING THE LOW RATES OF
PARTNERSHIP, I WON'T SAY
MARRIAGE NECESSARILY, BUT
PARTNERSHIP, IS THE SHORTAGE OF
AVAILABLE MEN IN THE AFRICAN
AMERICAN COMMUNITY.
AND THAT IS DUE TO SEVERAL
FACTORS.
ONE IS THE HIGHER RATE OF
UNEMPLOYMENT AMONG THEM.
SO EVEN IF THEY'RE AVAILABLE
THEY DON'T NECESSARILY MAKE,
FROM THE WOMAN'S POINT OF VIEW,
IDEAL SPOUSES.
AND ALSO THE EXTREMELY HIGH RATE
OF INCARCERATION.
ONE IN THREE AFRICAN AMERICANS
IN THEIR 30S HAVE HAD A PRISON
RECORD.
THAT IS OBSCENE.
THAT IS OUTRAGEOUS.
I MEAN WE'RE SUPPOSED TO BE
LEADERS OF THE FREE WORLD AND WE
INCARCERATE OUR PEOPLE AT A
HIGHER RATE THAN ANY OTHER
NATION IN THE HISTORY OF THE
WORLD.
THIS IS TRUE ESPECIALLY OF
BLACKS.
IT'S ALSO TRUE OF WHITES.
BLACKMON: 25% OF ALL PRISONERS
IN THE WORLD ARE HERE, RIGHT.
PATTERSON: SO, THAT HAS CREATED
A SITUATION WHICH IS A SHORTAGE
OF MEN BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY IT
WAS A TOTAL COUNTERPRODUCTIVE
POLICY BECAUSE IT ACTUALLY
WORSENED CRIME.
BECAUSE YOU BRING IN A LOT OF
NONVIOLENT PEOPLE WHO WERE IN
THE WRONG PLACE AT THE WRONG
TIME, DRUG ARRESTS AND SO ON.
YOU BRING THEM INTO PRISONS WITH
HARDENED CRIMINALS THEY END UP
BEING VIOLENT WHEN THEY COME
OUT.
SO FORTUNATELY, ONE OF THE FEW
AREAS OF AGREEMENT IN THE
DIVIDED WASHINGTON NOW IS THE
FACT THAT THIS WAS A DISASTER.
AND EVEN ALL THE REPUBLICAN
CANDIDATES AND EVEN CRUZ IS
SAYING WE'VE GOT TO REDUCE THE
PRISON POPULATION FOR VARIOUS
REASONS.
HOPEFULLY SOMETHING WILL BE DOWN
THERE.
BLACKMON: YOU ALSO HAVE BEEN
PRETTY CRITICAL OF, OVER TIME,
SPECIFICALLY OF HIP HOP WHEN WE
TALK ABOUT BLACK CULTURE END OF
THINGS.
TELL US ABOUT THAT.
PATTERSON: NO, I SHOULD CORRECT
THAT.
I'M NOT, I'M CRITICAL OF ONE
GENRE OF HIP HOP.
THE GANGSTER HIP HOP.
I THINK HIP HOP IS PHENOMENAL.
IT'S ONE OF THE AREAS AS YOU
KNOW, THAT A GREAT MAJORITY OF
THE PEOPLE WHO CONSUME HIP HOP
ARE MIDDLE CLASS AND UPPER
MIDDLE CLASS WHITE KIDS AS WELL
AS THE REST OF THE WORLD.
AND WE HAVE A LONG CHAPTER IN
OUR BOOK ON HIP HOP.
SO AGAIN, I WANT TO EMPHASIZE,
NO I'M NOT ANTI-HIP HOP.
I THINK IT'S JUST EXTRAORDINARY
THAT OUT OF THE SOUTH BRONX THEY
HAD SUCH A REMARKABLE MOVEMENT.
AND GOOD HIP HOP, MOST HIP HOP
IS LYRICALLY AND MUSICALLY QUITE
INNOVATIVE AND IT'S ANOTHER
EXAMPLE OF HOW AFRICAN AMERICANS
HAVE HAD A DISPROPORTIONATE
INFERENCE OUT OF ALL RELATIONS
TO THEIR NUMBERS.
BUT SOMETHING HAPPENED TO HIP
HOP AND YOU'D BE AMAZED AT WHAT
THE SOURCE OF THE PROBLEM IS.
THE GANGSTER RAP WHICH EMERGED
IN THE 1990'S WHICH MAINLY
EMPHASIZED THE VIOLENCE, WHICH
EMPHASIZED STREET CRED VERY
OFTEN ARE CLAIMING TO BE BAD IN
A WAY WHICH THEY WEREN'T.
AND IF YOU INVESTIGATE THESE
SINGERS IT TURNS OUT THAT MANY
OF THEM CAME FROM GOOD WORKING
CLASS FAMILIES AND WERE CLAIMING
TO BE DOING ALL KINDS OF WICKED
THINGS WHICH THE OPPOSITE WAS
THE CASE.
THEY WERE SCARED TO DEATH WHEN
THEY'RE YOUNG.
NOW HOW DID GANGSTER RAP BECOME
THE DOMINANT GENRE?
IT TURNS OUT THAT IT WAS
ENCOURAGED BY THE CORPORATE
INTERESTS WHO HAD MANEUVER OVER
THE FINANCIAL CONTROL OF HIP
HOP.
THEY WERE ACTUALLY ENCOURAGED TO
EMPHASIZE THE, YOU KNOW, THE
VIOLENCE AND SO ON BECAUSE THEY
CLAIMED THIS SOLD ESPECIALLY TO
WHITE AUDIENCES.
I WANT TO EMPHASIZE THAT.
AND FURTHERMORE HIP HOP IS NOT
WHAT CAUSED THE PROBLEM, IT WAS
LARGELY REFLECTING IT.
ALTHOUGH BY REFLECTING, BY
FOCUSING MORE AND MORE ON THE
GANGSTER RAP, THE THUG CULTURE
, IT MAY HAVE AT ANY RATE GIVEN
TOO MUCH ENCOURAGEMENT TO THOSE
WHO WERE ORIGINALLY INCLINED TO
BE THAT WAY ANYWAY.
SO LET ME JUST MAKE THAT
ABSOLUTELY CLEAR.
THERE HAS BEEN NOW VERY RECENT
CHANGES IN HIP HOP WHICH I THINK
ARE VERY ENCOURAGING.
A YOUNGER GROUP OF SINGERS HAVE
MOVED IN THAT DIRECTION.
AS WITH EVERYTHING ELSE IT'S
COMPLEX.
NO, NO I'M NOT ANTI-HIP HOP.
BLACKMON: THERE'S NOT SOMETHING
UNIQUE TO HIP HOP?
I WAS GOING TO READ TO YOU SOME
KATY PERRY LYRICS OF RECENT
TIMES ABOUT "LAST FRIDAY NIGHT,
STRANGER IN MY BED, POUNDING IN
MY HEAD, M!NAGE 0 TROIS,
STREAKING IN THE PARK" AND
THAT'S NOT.
SO THERE'S NOTHING YOU NEED TO
HIP-HOP, IT IS --
PATTERSON: YOUTH CULTURE MUSIC
AND ALL OVER THE WORLD AND NOT
JUST THIS GENRE.
BLACKMON: SO THE BROADER
QUESTION, I WANT TO ASK YOU
ABOUT THAT, IF WE GO BACK A
LITTLE FURTHER BACK IN TIME.
IF WE GO BACK TO 1900.
AND AS YOU KNOW POVERTY
STATISTICS ONLY GO BACK A
CERTAIN AMOUNT OF TIME IN
AMERICAN LIFE THAT ARE
MEANINGFUL.
BUT IT APPEARS TO BE GENERALLY
AGREED THAT IN 1900 A LITTLE
MORE THAN 50% OF AMERICANS LIVED
IN WHAT WE CALL POVERTY TODAY.
THOUGH PROBABLY A MUCH WORSE
VERSION OF POVERTY THAN TODAY.
AND SO BY DEFINITION THAT WOULD
MEAN THAT AFRICAN AMERICANS WERE
PROBABLY, THEIR NUMBERS WERE OF
THE 95% AMONG AFRICAN AMERICANS.
PATTERSON: WE HAVE STUDIES BY DU
BOIS.
BLACKMON: EXACTLY.
THAT'S OUR BEST DATA.
BUT SO SOMETHING HAPPENS BETWEEN
1900 AND WE GO THROUGH THE GANG
CRISIS OF BONNIE AND CLYDE IN
THE 1930'S AND WE GET TO THE
1940'S AND A DIFFERENT KIND OF
GANG CRISIS BUT SIMILAR KINDS OF
ISSUES FACING POOR WHITES.
BUT SOMETHING DRAMATICALLY
DIFFERENT BEGINS TO OCCUR.
CULTURE CHANGES IN SOME MATTER.
WHITE CULTURE LOOKED BAD IN 1900
AND BEGINS TO LOOK A LOT BETTER
BY THE 1950'S AND SO IN THE END
1960'S.
TO LOOK BACK HISTORICALLY WHAT
WAS IT?
INSTITUTIONAL REMEDIES OR WAS IT
SOMETHING IN THE HEARTS AND
MINDS AND SOULS OF GOD FEARING
WHITE PEOPLE THAT, WHAT WAS IT
THAT BROUGHT ABOUT THIS GIGANTIC
CHANGE?
PATTERSON: SIMPLE.
THEIR ECONOMIC LOT IMPROVED
CONSIDERABLY WITH THE ASSISTANCE
OF THE STATE.
IRA KATZNELSON HAS A GREAT BOOK
WHEN AFFIRMATIVE ACTION WAS
WHITE IN WHICH HE TRACED IN
GREAT DETAIL THE WAYS IN WHICH
THE STATES ASSISTED WHITES IN
GETTING OUT OF FROM POVERTY.
BOTH THE STATE AT THE FEDERAL
LEVEL AND AT THE LOCAL LEVEL AND
IT VARIES WITH ETHNIC GROUPS.
SO WITH THE IRISH WE KNOW THAT
CIVIC GOVERNMENT WAS A CRITICAL
FACTOR IN THE IRISH GETTING OUT
FROM THE GHETTOS AND THEIR
VIOLENCE AND SO ON.
AND LATER ON, OF COURSE, WE KNOW
THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT,
WHILE THERE WAS THIS GREAT
WELL FOR REFORM IN THE 1930'S,
BUT ALSO THE G.I. BILL WHICH
BASICALLY CREATED THE SUBURBS
WITH MASSIVE STATE SUPPORT.
ALL OF THIS HAPPENED WITH THE
DELIBERATE EXCLUSION OF BLACK
AMERICANS AND REPEATEDLY.
IN THE CASE OF THE WELFARE
REFORMS UNDER ROOSEVELT
, EVENTUALLY IT CAME TO BENEFIT
AFRICAN AMERICANS OF COURSE BUT
IT'S SIGNIFICANT THAT EXCLUDED
FROM THE BENEFITS WERE DOMESTIC
WORKERS AND AGRICULTURAL
WORKERS.
BLACKMON: SO IT'S MINIMUM WAGE
AND SOCIAL SECURITY.
PATTERSON: OK, SO BLACKS WERE
EXCLUDED BUT IN THE CASE OF THE
INVENTION CREATION SUPPORT OF
THE RIGHT OF THE SUBURBS BY THE
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT YOU HAD RED
LINING AND ALL THE OTHER SET OF
FACTORS AND THE BUILDING OF
GHETTOS WHICH DELIBERATELY
EXCLUDED BLACKS FROM THIS.
IT'S IMPORTANT TO KNOW THAT THE
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WAS NOT ONLY
COMPLICIT IN CREATING
SEGREGATION AND EXCLUDING BLACKS
BUT THAT THIS HAD AN
ACCUMULATIVE EFFECT.
ACCUMULATIVE IN THAT IF YOUR
GREAT GRANDPARENTS HAD MONEY AND
PROPERTY, THE PROBABILITY OF YOU
HAVING PROPERTY IS GREATLY
ENHANCED BECAUSE IT'S PASSED
DOWN.
AND ONE OF THE IMPORTANT WAYS IN
WHICH BLACKS ARE DISADVANTAGED
IS NOT ONLY IN INCOME BUT EVEN
MORE IMPORTANTLY IN ASSETS, IN
WEALTH.
THIS IS MUCH GREATER THAN THE
INCOME DIFFERENCE.
AND THE AVERAGE WHITE AMERICAN
NOW HAS A HOUSEHOLD INCOME OF
WELL OVER $100,000, NOT INCOME,
IN ASSETS.
OVER $100,000.
FOR THE AVERAGE BLACK IT'S
SOMETHING LIKE $8,000.
BLACKMON: YES, IT'S 10 TIMES
HIGHER OR MORE.
PATTERSON: RIGHT.
BUT THIS IS CUMULATIVE SO YOU
CAN SHOW THAT ONE OUT OF
1900, IN FACT THERE'S A RECENT
STUDY BY A GROUP OF ECONOMISTS
WHO LOOKED AT A PROGRAM WHICH
HELPED A GROUP OF WHITES MAINLY
IN THE EARLY PART OF THE 20TH
CENTURY.
THEN THEY MOVED FORWARD OVER A
HUNDRED YEARS TO SEE WHAT THE
DESCENDANTS WERE ABLE TO TRACK
TO SEE THE OUTCOME.
AND AMAZINGLY THE CONSEQUENCES
LIVED ON.
SO YOU KNOW YOU WANT TO BUY A
HOUSE, I MEAN YOUR PARENTS LOVE
YOU, INHERENT YOUR PARENTS' HOME
AND SO ON.
SO THAT WAS A MAJOR FACT.
THAT'S WHY I SAY THE STATE WAS
COMPLICIT IN THE PROBLEMS OF
AFRICAN AMERICANS, GOING BACK TO
THE LEGALIZING OF SLAVERY, GOING
BACK TO THE LAWS TO RETURN
SLAVES TO VIRGINIA OR WHEREVER,
GOING BACK TO THE POLICIES IN
THE WELFARE PROGRAMS, IN THE GI
BILL, IN THE BUILDING OF THE
GHETTOS AND THEREFORE THE STATE
HAS A MAJOR RESPONSIBILITY IN
SOLVING THESE PROBLEMS.
NOT TO MENTION THAT IT'S GOOD
FOR AMERICA.
BLACKMON: YEAH.
SO BY ALL THAT CALCULATION YOU
GET TO A PLACE WHERE IN THE
1960S, WHERE YOU START DOING THE
BODY OF YOUR WORK, THE POVERTY
RATES OF AFRICAN AMERICANS AT
THAT POINT WAS NOT QUITE THE 50%
NUMBER NATIONALLY.
THOUGH IN MUCH OF THE GEOGRAPHY
OF THE COUNTRY WOULD HAVE DONE
WELL MORE THAN THAT.
AH, SO IN MANY CASES THE 1960S
ARE FOR AFRICAN AMERICANS AND
EVEN THE 1970S FOR AFRICAN
AMERICANS ARE WHAT 1900 WAS FOR
WHITE AMERICANS.
AND SO WE'VE GOT THIS 70 YEAR
GAP.
AND SO THE SHORT HAND OF THE
STRUCTURALIST VERSUS CULTURALIST
ARGUMENT IS THAT A CULTURALIST
IS MORE LIKELY TO SAY THAT
STRUCTURAL FIXES LIKE THE WAR ON
POVERTY, WHICH EFFECTS ARE SO
WIDELY DISPUTED NOW BUT ONE
WOULD SAY THAT A CULTURALIST
ISN'T GOING TO SAY THAT A
STRUCTURAL REMEDY LIKE THE WAR
ON POVERTY OR OTHER PROGRAMS IS
CENTRAL.
BUT YOU WOULD IN THE
INTERMARRIAGE?
PATTERSON: YES, BECAUSE OF
INTERACTION.
SO PEOPLE RESPOND TO
DISADVANTAGE IN THE BEST WAYS
THEY CAN AND THEY DEVELOP
ATTITUDES AND SO ON WHICH THEN
WHILE THEY MAY BE FUNCTIONAL AT
THE TIME, LATER HAVE
CONSEQUENCES.
AND I SAY SINGLE PARENTING, TO
GET BACK TO THAT, IS IN PART
REINFORCED BY THE FACT THAT YOU
KNOW MEN HAVE SUCH LOW INCOME OR
NO INCOME AND THEY FEEL THEY
CANNOT MEET THEIR
RESPONSIBILITIES AS FATHERS AND
SO ON, THAT'S ONE OF THE
FACTORS.
BUT IF YOU DO THAT GENERATION
AFTER GENERATION AFTER A WHILE
THE THING BECOMES NORMATIVE.
SO YOU HAVE TO SEE HOW CULTURE
AND STRUCTURE CONTINUALLY
REINFORCE EACH OTHER.
SO I'M NOT A PESSIMIST.
THE CONSERVATIVE POSITION IS
IT'S THE CULTURE.
AND THE CULTURE THERE'S NOTHING
WE CAN DO ABOUT, WE WEREN'T
INVOLVED IN CREATING IT AND
THERE'S NOTHING YOU CAN DO
ECONOMICALLY.
BLACKMON: IT IS JUST ON BLACK
PEOPLE.
PATTERSON: THAT'S SIMPLY WRONG
AND AS I SAY PEOPLE CAN CHANGE
THEIR ATTITUDES AND WE SEE SOME
CHANGE FOR EXAMPLE IN THE
DRAMATIC DECLINE AMONG AFRICAN
AMERICAN YOUTH IN THE TEEN
PREGNANCY RATE WHICH HAS GONE
DOWN SIGNIFICANTLY.
THAT WAS A RESULT OF A LOT OF
ATTENTION BEING PAID TO THE
PROBLEM AND THERE WAS EFFORT
BEING MADE TO EDUCATE AFRICAN
AMERICAN YOUNG WOMEN IN
PARTICULAR TO THIS AND IT DID
HAVE AN EFFECT.
THE RATES WERE CUT
SUBSTANTIALLY.
BUT THAT'S ONE PROBLEM.
WHILE THE RATE OF TEEN PREGNANCY
HAS GONE DOWN SIGNIFICANTLY THAT
INDICATES WE CAN DO THINGS.
!!!, BUT THE RATE OF SINGLE
PARENTING NONE THE LESS DID NOT
GO DOWN.
SO IT'S COMPLEX.
BLACKMON: LET ME ASK YOU ONE
LAST QUESTION.
SO AS WE HEAD INTO THIS
PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION AND HAVING
WORKED THROUGH ALL OF THIS
FASCINATING DISSECTION OF HOW WE
GOT HERE, BUT IF YOU WERE
SITTING THERE WITH SOMEONE SOME
MONTHS FROM NOW AND IT'S EITHER
HILLARY CLINTON OR RAND PAUL OR
TED CRUZ, WHO I GUESS IS YOUR
MAN, BUT YOU WERE SITTING WITH
WHICHEVER OF THOSE FIGURES WOULD
BE THE NEXT PRESIDENT AND YOU
ONLY HAD A MINUTE TO GIVE THEM A
PRESCRIPTION FOR HOW TO MOVE TO
THE NEXT PHASE OF AMERICAN LIFE
, ONE IN WHICH FERGUSONS ARE
LESS LIKELY AND BALTIMORES ARE
LESS LIKELY, WHAT'S THAT
PRESCRIPTION THAT YOU WOULD
OFFER THEM?
PATTERSON: WELL ON THE POLICE,
WELL FIRST OF ALL ON THE
INCARCERATION RATES AMERICA HAS
GOT TO GET OUT OF THE
EMBARRASSING SITUATION IT'S IN
NOW.
THERE'S GOT TO BE A SUBSTANTIAL
REDUCTION IN INCARCERATION.
WE'VE GOT TO MAKE MAJOR CHANGES
IN POLICE TRAINING.
POLICE HAVE GOT TO LEARN TO STOP
PROFILING THE ENTIRE BLACK
COMMUNITY.
THEY HAVE TO RESPECT THE INNER
CITY COMMUNITY AS A WHOLE AND
SEE THEIR ROLE NOT AS AN
OCCUPYING FORCE BUT THERE FOR
PROTECTION.
NOT TO JUST RESPOND TO CRIME BUT
TO PREVENT CRIME AND THEREFORE
COMMUNITY POLICING AND SO ON.
I'D STRONGLY EMPHASIZE THAT.
I'D ALSO EMPHASIZE THE NEED TO
REINFORCE ALL THE PROGRAMS WHICH
HAVE BEEN SHOWN TO WORK SUCH AS
CHILD CARE, HEAD START.
A STRONG EMPHASIS ON AFTERSCHOOL
CARE AND GROWING PROGRAMS WHICH
INITIATES YOUTH INTO JOB
TRAINING, AND A PARTNERSHIP
PROGRAM WHICH HELPS INNER-CITY
MOTHERS WITH TRAINING.
AND AN EMPHASIS ON CHARTER
SCHOOLS THAT WORK BECAUSE ONE OF
THE BIGGER PROBLEMS IN THE INNER
CITY IS THE POOR SCHOOLING AND
SO ON.
BASICALLY CONTINUING A SET OF
PROGRAMS WHICH THE PRESENT
PRESIDENT HAS STARTED ON LIKE
THE BROTHERS KEEPERS PROGRAMS
WHICH COORDINATES ALL THE
SUCCESSFUL PROGRAMS AND IN FACT
INCORPORATES BUSINESS PEOPLE IN
HELPING BOTH MEN IN TERMS OF
PROVIDING GOOD ROLE MODELS
, TRAINING OF JOBS AND SO ON.
THAT WOULD BE WHAT I STRONGLY
EMPHASIZE.
BLACKMON: AND WHAT WOULD YOUR
ADVICE BE, WHAT WOULD THE
MESSAGE BE THAT THEY SHOULD
CONVEY TO AMERICANS?
PATTERSON: THEY SHOULD CONVEY TO
AFRICAN AMERICANS THAT THEY ARE
INTEGRAL MEMBERS OF THIS
COMMUNITY AND THAT THE STATE WAS
RESPONSIBLE FOR MANY OF THE
PROBLEMS THAT AFRICAN AMERICANS
FACE OVER MANY HUNDREDS OF YEARS
AND THAT THE STATE WILL PARTNER
WITH THE AFRICAN AMERICAN
COMMUNITY AS THE AFRICAN
AMERICAN COMMUNITY ITSELF TAKES
ON A RESPONSIBILITY OF HOW IT
CAN MAKE THE CHANGES INTERNALLY
WHICH WE WELL HAVE TO MAKE.
BUT WITH A STRONG SUPPORT OF THE
STATE AS INDICATED BY THE MORE
ADVANCED SORT OF EUROPEAN
COUNTRIES WHICH ARE SHOWN IN
SCANDINAVIA FOR EXAMPLE HOW YOU
DO THIS.
AND SO A PARTNERSHIP IN WHICH
BOTH AFRICAN AMERICANS TAKE THE
RESPONSIBILITY FOR CHANGES
INTERNALLY BUT WITH STRONG
ASSISTANCE OF THE STATE.
BLACKMON: HARVARD SOCIOLOGIST
ORLANDO PATTERSON, IT'S BEEN A
TREAT TO HAVE THE BENEFIT OF
YOUR MIND FOR THE PAST HOUR.
THE BOOK IS THE CULTURAL MATRIX:
UNDERSTANDING BLACK YOUTH.
TO SEND US A COMMENT ABOUT THIS
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DAY, SEVEN DAYS A WEEK.
I'M DOUG BLACKMON.
SEE YOU NEXT TIME.
7
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