
Spanish: 
Today is June 9th, 1995.
My name is Ana Hughes.
We are interviewing Mr. José Hochner.
H-O-C-H-N-E-R, in Miami Beach, Florida,

English: 
Today is June 9th, 1995.
My name is Ana Hughes.
We are interviewing Mr. José Hochner.
H-O-C-H-N-E-R, in Miami Beach, Florida,

English: 
in the United States,
and the interview will be in Spanish.
- Good morning.
- Good morning.
Could you please tell us your name
and last name?
My name is José Hochner,
H-O-C-H-N-E-R.
What is your birth date
and place you were born, please?
December 12th, 1913.
In what city were you born?
I was born in the city of Jolkiew.
In the district of Galicia.
Tell me, what was the name of your father
and your mother?
My father was called Elías,
and my mother was called Chaya.
How many brothers and sisters did you have?
I had two sisters.
And their names?

Spanish: 
in the United States,
and the interview will be in Spanish.
- Good morning.
- Good morning.
Could you please tell us your name
and last name?
My name is José Hochner,
H-O-C-H-N-E-R.
What is your birth date
and place you were born, please?
December 12th, 1913.
In what city were you born?
I was born in the city of Jolkiew.
In the district of Galicia.
Tell me, what was the name of your father
and your mother?
My father was called Elías,
and my mother was called Chaya.
How many brothers and sisters did you have?
I had two sisters.
And their names?

Spanish: 
Their names were Tova and Chana.
Tell me, Mr.Hochner,
how was your life in Galicia?
Our lives... well...
we were a very religious family.
My father was very religious.
He was a representative
of the Orthodox community in the city council.
He was also a representative
of the Orthodox Jews.
He was the only Jew who was sitting
(in the city council)
and would wear a kapale (kippah).

English: 
Their names were Tova and Chana.
Tell me, Mr.Hochner,
how was your life in Galicia?
Our lives... well...
we were a very religious family.
My father was very religious.
He was a representative
of the Orthodox community in the city council.
He was also a representative
of the Orthodox Jews.
He was the only Jew who was sitting
(in the city council)
and would wear a kapale (kippah).

English: 
Your daily life.
How was it in your local city?
When?
Before the war.
Before the war, we lived well.
My father had a wood business, forests.
They worked with wooden boards,
and the children worked with their father.
My father even built a big house,
and he always dreamed all his children
to live under the same roof.
Tell me, Mr. Hochner,
how was the relationship with your neighbors?
Were they Jews,
or which other religions
lived near your house?

Spanish: 
Your daily life.
How was it in your local city?
When?
Before the war.
Before the war, we lived well.
My father had a wood business, forests.
They worked with wooden boards,
and the children worked with their father.
My father even built a big house,
and he always dreamed all his children
to live under the same roof.
Tell me, Mr. Hochner,
how was the relationship with your neighbors?
Were they Jews,
or which other religions
lived near your house?

English: 
On the surroundings, mostly Jews.
There was always a great anti-Semitism,
like the Polish.
And this was shown
during the wartime.
So, we were always accompanied by Jews.
Do you remember if,
when you attended to the synagogues,
or attended to school,
you felt any anti-Semitism
- from the people who were not Jew?
- There always was anti-Semitism.
And a Jew could never go to the university
to be a student, to be a lawyer,
to be a medical doctor.
They always made fun of Jews,
and there was a great anti-Semitism.

Spanish: 
On the surroundings, mostly Jews.
There was always a great anti-Semitism,
like the Polish.
And this was shown
during the wartime.
So, we were always accompanied by Jews.
Do you remember if,
when you attended to the synagogues,
or attended to school,
you felt any anti-Semitism
- from the people who were not Jew?
- There always was anti-Semitism.
And a Jew could never go to the university
to be a student, to be a lawyer,
to be a medical doctor.
They always made fun of Jews,
and there was a great anti-Semitism.

Spanish: 
Tell me, Mr. Hochner.
Until what grade could you study?
I finished my...
I took seven commerce classes,
and I also studied the most part in...
Your mom was dedicated to house-working.
Do you remember how a Shabbat was?
Your celebration at home.
It was very festive,
and we always had guests,
and always with the children together.
And it was a very respectful place.
Very respectful.
Imagine that the greatest
and most accredited Rabbi,
like Lubavitch today, who was called
the Belzer Rebbe.

English: 
Tell me, Mr. Hochner.
Until what grade could you study?
I finished my...
I took seven commerce classes,
and I also studied the most part in...
Your mom was dedicated to house-working.
Do you remember how a Shabbat was?
Your celebration at home.
It was very festive,
and we always had guests,
and always with the children together.
And it was a very respectful place.
Very respectful.
Imagine that the greatest
and most accredited Rabbi,
like Lubavitch today, who was called
the Belzer Rebbe.

Spanish: 
When he visited our city,
he always went to stay at our house
for two weeks.
What language did you speak
in your house?
We spoke Yiddish.
We always spoke Yiddish.
Tell me, the friendship your family had
with the Rabbi of the city.
Tell us a bit about that friendship.
This friendship was...
The Rabbi lived near our house.
And he had a daughter
who was the same age as my sister.
And they were like two sisters.
Every Saturday night my sister
went to sleep there,
at the Rabbi's house,

English: 
When he visited our city,
he always went to stay at our house
for two weeks.
What language did you speak
in your house?
We spoke Yiddish.
We always spoke Yiddish.
Tell me, the friendship your family had
with the Rabbi of the city.
Tell us a bit about that friendship.
This friendship was...
The Rabbi lived near our house.
And he had a daughter
who was the same age as my sister.
And they were like two sisters.
Every Saturday night my sister
went to sleep there,
at the Rabbi's house,

Spanish: 
and the next Saturday night
the Rabbi's daughter would go
to our house.
And we were really close friends.
And always at Pesach, when we finished,
we would accompany the Rabbi after the 'seder'.
So, we were really good friends.
Tell me, Mr. Hochner.
When did you and your family
start to realize that there was something
threatening your lives?
In what year, if you can remember.
We never dreamed
that this could happen to our lives.
We never dreamed that.
Even when the Germans entered,
they entered for a few days,
and then they had an agreement
with the Russians.

English: 
and the next Saturday night
the Rabbi's daughter would go
to our house.
And we were really close friends.
And always at Pesach, when we finished,
we would accompany the Rabbi after the 'seder'.
So, we were really good friends.
Tell me, Mr. Hochner.
When did you and your family
start to realize that there was something
threatening your lives?
In what year, if you can remember.
We never dreamed
that this could happen to our lives.
We never dreamed that.
Even when the Germans entered,
they entered for a few days,
and then they had an agreement
with the Russians.

Spanish: 
So, they left our city,
and the Russians stayed with us
for a couple months,
until the war
between the Germans
and the Russians broke out.
And in the meantime,
when the Russians were in our city,
they always nationalized the rich,
they took all their great businesses,
they emptied the stores,
nationalized the banks,
and we were with the Russian
for several months.
We expected maybe to have to work,
to not have a business,
but no one ever dreamed
such terrible things (would come).
Tell me, Mr. Hochner.
Do you remember in what year

English: 
So, they left our city,
and the Russians stayed with us
for a couple months,
until the war
between the Germans
and the Russians broke out.
And in the meantime,
when the Russians were in our city,
they always nationalized the rich,
they took all their great businesses,
they emptied the stores,
nationalized the banks,
and we were with the Russian
for several months.
We expected maybe to have to work,
to not have a business,
but no one ever dreamed
such terrible things (would come).
Tell me, Mr. Hochner.
Do you remember in what year

Spanish: 
did the Russians enter?
The Russians entered in 1939
when the war broke out.
So, The Germans were about 2 or 3 weeks,
and the Germans left,
and the Russians arrived.
- In 1939.
- 1939.
And this was until June 1941,
when the war
between Russia and Germany broke out.
Tell me, Mr Hochner.
When the Germans entered,
did you feel the danger
to your life with the Germans?

English: 
did the Russians enter?
The Russians entered in 1939
when the war broke out.
So, The Germans were about 2 or 3 weeks,
and the Germans left,
and the Russians arrived.
- In 1939.
- 1939.
And this was until June 1941,
when the war
between Russia and Germany broke out.
Tell me, Mr Hochner.
When the Germans entered,
did you feel the danger
to your life with the Germans?

Spanish: 
We expected to be in the third class,
to not be able to have a business,
to not be able to go to school,
but we never expected so many things.
Mr. Hochner, you, with the Germans,
before the Russians entered,
you lost your things,
they took away your things.
They entered your house.
Some of it happened, with the Germans.
Not yet, not yet.
In those few days, no.
There even were when the Germans left,
and to our city many Jews always arrived.
They always went there to stay far
from the Germans.
So, then, when the Russians took them...
When the Russians arrived

English: 
We expected to be in the third class,
to not be able to have a business,
to not be able to go to school,
but we never expected so many things.
Mr. Hochner, you, with the Germans,
before the Russians entered,
you lost your things,
they took away your things.
They entered your house.
Some of it happened, with the Germans.
Not yet, not yet.
In those few days, no.
There even were when the Germans left,
and to our city many Jews always arrived.
They always went there to stay far
from the Germans.
So, then, when the Russians took them...
When the Russians arrived

English: 
put signs saying that whoever wants
to return home, can do it.
And there were Jews that registered,
that wanted to go back,
because they didn't know
what was awaiting for them, yet.
And these Jews that registered,
that wanted to go back,
one night, all the police of Russia
came with two trucks to pick up
all these Jews to Siberia,
because they found out
they were enemies.
And if you prefer to go back
to the Germans,
then that means you are against us.
And they took them all to Siberia,
and for some it ended up good,
because they revived the war.
Who knows, if they don't register.
So, they took so many people
who lived in Siberia.

Spanish: 
put signs saying that whoever wants
to return home, can do it.
And there were Jews that registered,
that wanted to go back,
because they didn't know
what was awaiting for them, yet.
And these Jews that registered,
that wanted to go back,
one night, all the police of Russia
came with two trucks to pick up
all these Jews to Siberia,
because they found out
they were enemies.
And if you prefer to go back
to the Germans,
then that means you are against us.
And they took them all to Siberia,
and for some it ended up good,
because they revived the war.
Who knows, if they don't register.
So, they took so many people
who lived in Siberia.

English: 
Mr. Hochner, once the Russians arrived
to your city,
what happened to your family,
to your house?
What happened?
When the Russian arrived,
I stayed.
They nationalized all the forests
and businesses we had.
And I worked as a wood specialist,
where they... with a real poor salary, of course,
but I stayed working there with them.
Did they take away your properties?
Yes. They nationalized the businesses,
banks and everything that was great,
that is called capitalist.
And they nationalized it. They took away everything.
And tell me, Mr. Hochner.
What happened to your father,
to your mother,
to your sisters?

Spanish: 
Mr. Hochner, once the Russians arrived
to your city,
what happened to your family,
to your house?
What happened?
When the Russian arrived,
I stayed.
They nationalized all the forests
and businesses we had.
And I worked as a wood specialist,
where they... with a real poor salary, of course,
but I stayed working there with them.
Did they take away your properties?
Yes. They nationalized the businesses,
banks and everything that was great,
that is called capitalist.
And they nationalized it. They took away everything.
And tell me, Mr. Hochner.
What happened to your father,
to your mother,
to your sisters?

English: 
Could they stay to live in the house
in the meantime?
Yes.
Yes.
When was the ghetto formed?
The ghetto was formed...
the Ghetto...
The ghetto was formed in December, 1942.
From 1939 to 1942,
how were the conditions
in which your family,
your sisters, your mother,
your father lived?
In those years,
when the Russians occupation remained.
My father died,
he was the only one who died,

Spanish: 
Could they stay to live in the house
in the meantime?
Yes.
Yes.
When was the ghetto formed?
The ghetto was formed...
the Ghetto...
The ghetto was formed in December, 1942.
From 1939 to 1942,
how were the conditions
in which your family,
your sisters, your mother,
your father lived?
In those years,
when the Russians occupation remained.
My father died,
he was the only one who died,

Spanish: 
who wasn't killed when the Russians entered,
so, my father died.
Did he have an accident?
He had an illness that there were no doctors
and there was no medicine.
So, he died.
And my mother and my siblings
lived together in the house.
And the businesses were nationalized
and they took us everything away.
How did you manage to eat,
to find food?
- Water.
- It was hard. It was really hard.
One had to stay where the bread was sold.
You had right to buy 1kg or 2kg,
depending on how big the family was.
You had coupons to buy bread.

English: 
who wasn't killed when the Russians entered,
so, my father died.
Did he have an accident?
He had an illness that there were no doctors
and there was no medicine.
So, he died.
And my mother and my siblings
lived together in the house.
And the businesses were nationalized
and they took us everything away.
How did you manage to eat,
to find food?
- Water.
- It was hard. It was really hard.
One had to stay where the bread was sold.
You had right to buy 1kg or 2kg,
depending on how big the family was.
You had coupons to buy bread.

English: 
You had to stay there during winter,
and many times once you got to the window
they would tell you
there was no more bread.
While you were without getting into the ghetto,
did you think in any way to leave the country?
No.
We didn't think about leaving,
because there was no possibility
to leave the country.
- There was no possibility.
- Maybe to escape.
No, no, no.
Mr. Hochner, to the others members of your family,
uncles, cousins.
- Were they living in the same city that you?
- No, no.
They lived in various cities,
because my mother had like four brothers
and two sisters,
and they had children and grandchildren,

Spanish: 
You had to stay there during winter,
and many times once you got to the window
they would tell you
there was no more bread.
While you were without getting into the ghetto,
did you think in any way to leave the country?
No.
We didn't think about leaving,
because there was no possibility
to leave the country.
- There was no possibility.
- Maybe to escape.
No, no, no.
Mr. Hochner, to the others members of your family,
uncles, cousins.
- Were they living in the same city that you?
- No, no.
They lived in various cities,
because my mother had like four brothers
and two sisters,
and they had children and grandchildren,

English: 
and they lived spread,
each one in at a different city.
While you were without getting into the ghetto,
did you have difficulties to find medicines,
or did you get ill,
or any serious situation for your family?
Well, when we lived in the zone
that was no ghetto,
but we always suffered a lot,
when you talk about the Germans.
So, for example,
a Jew couldn't go outside after 6:00pm.
I could go out until 8:00pm,
because I had a special certificate,
and there was a very luxurious street,
where the lawyers and the doctors lived.
Rich people.
They ordered to vacate everything.

Spanish: 
and they lived spread,
each one in at a different city.
While you were without getting into the ghetto,
did you have difficulties to find medicines,
or did you get ill,
or any serious situation for your family?
Well, when we lived in the zone
that was no ghetto,
but we always suffered a lot,
when you talk about the Germans.
So, for example,
a Jew couldn't go outside after 6:00pm.
I could go out until 8:00pm,
because I had a special certificate,
and there was a very luxurious street,
where the lawyers and the doctors lived.
Rich people.
They ordered to vacate everything.

Spanish: 
They had to leave the furniture
and the installations,
and they all had to leave the street.
Everyone who was Jew.
It was the most luxurious street
in my town.
And you couldn't walk on the sidewalk.
You had to walk where the horses walked,
because there were no cars in my town yet,
so, horses, cows.
So, a Jew had to walk there.
And you found your neighbors, your friends,
so humiliated...
Once the ghetto was installed, in 1942,
did they order you to leave your house?
Yes, when the ghetto was organized,
then a lady came, who was

English: 
They had to leave the furniture
and the installations,
and they all had to leave the street.
Everyone who was Jew.
It was the most luxurious street
in my town.
And you couldn't walk on the sidewalk.
You had to walk where the horses walked,
because there were no cars in my town yet,
so, horses, cows.
So, a Jew had to walk there.
And you found your neighbors, your friends,
so humiliated...
Once the ghetto was installed, in 1942,
did they order you to leave your house?
Yes, when the ghetto was organized,
then a lady came, who was

English: 
the national tax manager's wife,
with a policeman,
and they gave us three hours
to vacate the house.
And you could only carry with
what you had on.
So, at the front of my house,
it was a four-stories house.
It was a closed warehouse,
that the Russians hadn't taken yet.
At this house they sold us meat, fish,
so we accommodated it at this warehouse,
without windows.
There was only a door.
I had to go find wood boards
to make a bed for the three of us to sleep.
And the lady was at the front,
looking from my apartment's windows,
and we were at this warehouse.

Spanish: 
the national tax manager's wife,
with a policeman,
and they gave us three hours
to vacate the house.
And you could only carry with
what you had on.
So, at the front of my house,
it was a four-stories house.
It was a closed warehouse,
that the Russians hadn't taken yet.
At this house they sold us meat, fish,
so we accommodated it at this warehouse,
without windows.
There was only a door.
I had to go find wood boards
to make a bed for the three of us to sleep.
And the lady was at the front,
looking from my apartment's windows,
and we were at this warehouse.

Spanish: 
The lady was the wife of the manager
for whom you worked.
No, she was the tax administration
manager's wife.
In the meantime, where you still working
for the Russians?
I kept doing my job.
Even in this house,
where this lady lived,
the storehouses,
and wood, and everything was behind.
And I always went to the front,
to work.
Once you were kicked out of your house,
and you moved to the front building,
what happened then?
How long did you stay there?

English: 
The lady was the wife of the manager
for whom you worked.
No, she was the tax administration
manager's wife.
In the meantime, where you still working
for the Russians?
I kept doing my job.
Even in this house,
where this lady lived,
the storehouses,
and wood, and everything was behind.
And I always went to the front,
to work.
Once you were kicked out of your house,
and you moved to the front building,
what happened then?
How long did you stay there?

Spanish: 
Well, then, it was in 1942
that we entered the ghetto.
When we entered the ghetto,
but even before,
before entering the ghetto,
Erev Pesach; it was the week of Pesach
The table was already set for Pesach,
and my sister,
they knocked on the door,
and a Gestapo and two policemen entered,
and they took my sister and the two kids away.
One was five years old,
and the girl was nine years old.
And a truck was waiting outside,
and they took them
because when the Germans entered,
they ordered a health commission

English: 
Well, then, it was in 1942
that we entered the ghetto.
When we entered the ghetto,
but even before,
before entering the ghetto,
Erev Pesach; it was the week of Pesach
The table was already set for Pesach,
and my sister,
they knocked on the door,
and a Gestapo and two policemen entered,
and they took my sister and the two kids away.
One was five years old,
and the girl was nine years old.
And a truck was waiting outside,
and they took them
because when the Germans entered,
they ordered a health commission

Spanish: 
to take a Jew,
and there was going to be
an A category, B category, C category,
to know which works are suitable for them.
And my brother-in-law fought
to enter in the C category,
so he didn't have to do
too hard jobs.
My brother-in-law had a broom
to clean the streets everyday,
and my sister had the table set,
and all.
And they took them away.
My brother-in-law wasn't still there.
And when he came,
and saw the house empty,
then he went to find out
what was to happen with them.

English: 
to take a Jew,
and there was going to be
an A category, B category, C category,
to know which works are suitable for them.
And my brother-in-law fought
to enter in the C category,
so he didn't have to do
too hard jobs.
My brother-in-law had a broom
to clean the streets everyday,
and my sister had the table set,
and all.
And they took them away.
My brother-in-law wasn't still there.
And when he came,
and saw the house empty,
then he went to find out
what was to happen with them.

English: 
And they all were in...
there were like 700, approximately,
from C category.
And my brother-in-law also got registered,
and no one imagined they were going
to send them to work in the fields.
And then, when they were sending them,
we went to look and find out
because it was the first action in the city.
So, we achieved to find out
who was driving the locomotive.
And we went with gifts to a town,
so he can tell us where he sent them,
and he said more or less to so-and-so town,
and then, he had to go down,
and a German got on and drove the train.
But to know to where.

Spanish: 
And they all were in...
there were like 700, approximately,
from C category.
And my brother-in-law also got registered,
and no one imagined they were going
to send them to work in the fields.
And then, when they were sending them,
we went to look and find out
because it was the first action in the city.
So, we achieved to find out
who was driving the locomotive.
And we went with gifts to a town,
so he can tell us where he sent them,
and he said more or less to so-and-so town,
and then, he had to go down,
and a German got on and drove the train.
But to know to where.

English: 
He didn't know where he was taking them.
- So...
- So, for me this was such a serious blow.
I was in love with these two kids,
and imagine what we had to go through
during this time.
This was the first hit we suffered
from the Germans.
After you lost your family,
your sister, your nieces, your brother-in-law,
what happened later?
How did you go back?
And then, actions started.
After this action...
We call it action,
when they took people.
Then, another action happened,
that they took 2.500 people.
They had them near the railway.

Spanish: 
He didn't know where he was taking them.
- So...
- So, for me this was such a serious blow.
I was in love with these two kids,
and imagine what we had to go through
during this time.
This was the first hit we suffered
from the Germans.
After you lost your family,
your sister, your nieces, your brother-in-law,
what happened later?
How did you go back?
And then, actions started.
After this action...
We call it action,
when they took people.
Then, another action happened,
that they took 2.500 people.
They had them near the railway.

English: 
And waiting for two days in winter,
with snow, without food,
waiting for the trains...
Because they were heading to Auschwitz
and Treblinka,
and then they were waiting
for it to come back,
to take more people.
So, this was the second action,
of 2.500 people who were taken there.
- Your other sister and your mother.
- My other sister stayed at the ghetto,
and when my mother saw
that they were doing more and more actions,
and there was no defense,
and there was no chance,

Spanish: 
And waiting for two days in winter,
with snow, without food,
waiting for the trains...
Because they were heading to Auschwitz
and Treblinka,
and then they were waiting
for it to come back,
to take more people.
So, this was the second action,
of 2.500 people who were taken there.
- Your other sister and your mother.
- My other sister stayed at the ghetto,
and when my mother saw
that they were doing more and more actions,
and there was no defense,
and there was no chance,

English: 
she started to talk to me,
that I was the only one
who had a chance to live,
because I could go out to sleep,
because I had the right to go out
until 9:00pm.
And the other Jews until 6:00pm.
And I didn't accept.
I didn't accept it.
What is going to happen with you?
What is going to happen with me?
She said: But if you could help
in any way, I would understand.
You can't help it if the Gestapo comes.
They will take us away
and they will take you, too.
I want one from the family to live.
So, I prepared a bunker
where I worked.
And I said goodbye every night
to my mother, to my sister...

Spanish: 
she started to talk to me,
that I was the only one
who had a chance to live,
because I could go out to sleep,
because I had the right to go out
until 9:00pm.
And the other Jews until 6:00pm.
And I didn't accept.
I didn't accept it.
What is going to happen with you?
What is going to happen with me?
She said: But if you could help
in any way, I would understand.
You can't help it if the Gestapo comes.
They will take us away
and they will take you, too.
I want one from the family to live.
So, I prepared a bunker
where I worked.
And I said goodbye every night
to my mother, to my sister...

Spanish: 
And... without knowing
if I will be able to see them tomorrow.
And it was like that for about two months.
I went out to sleep,
and one night I didn't realize that,
during the morning,
when I took the head out of the bunker,
I realized that there was an action.
I hid,
and I waited,
and I knew that something was going to happen
all the time.
And that's how I was for two days and a half
inside the bunker.
The other day,
during the morning.

English: 
And... without knowing
if I will be able to see them tomorrow.
And it was like that for about two months.
I went out to sleep,
and one night I didn't realize that,
during the morning,
when I took the head out of the bunker,
I realized that there was an action.
I hid,
and I waited,
and I knew that something was going to happen
all the time.
And that's how I was for two days and a half
inside the bunker.
The other day,
during the morning.

Spanish: 
Mr. Hochner, we were talking about
the time you had to built a bunker
at the place where you worked.
Yes, and...
for me it was really hard to say goodbye
every night.
You say goodbye to your mother
and to your sister without knowing
if you will be able to see them the next day.
And the same for them.
But they were really right,
because I was unable to help them.
They couldn't go across the street,
because they would kill them right there.
So, with this permission I had,
I had the right to go out,
and I stayed hidden in that place,

English: 
Mr. Hochner, we were talking about
the time you had to built a bunker
at the place where you worked.
Yes, and...
for me it was really hard to say goodbye
every night.
You say goodbye to your mother
and to your sister without knowing
if you will be able to see them the next day.
And the same for them.
But they were really right,
because I was unable to help them.
They couldn't go across the street,
because they would kill them right there.
So, with this permission I had,
I had the right to go out,
and I stayed hidden in that place,

English: 
until one morning I saw that everything
was calm,
so I approached with much fright
to that warehouse.
The door was open,
no one was there.
The walls were covered with blood.
I cried, I screamed.
They took them away.
I never found them again.
The last night, when I said goodbye...
Do you remember the date
when this happened?
This was around November or December, 1942.
After finding out
that possibly your mother and your sister

Spanish: 
until one morning I saw that everything
was calm,
so I approached with much fright
to that warehouse.
The door was open,
no one was there.
The walls were covered with blood.
I cried, I screamed.
They took them away.
I never found them again.
The last night, when I said goodbye...
Do you remember the date
when this happened?
This was around November or December, 1942.
After finding out
that possibly your mother and your sister

Spanish: 
- had been already killed...
- What?
After finding out
that your mother and your sister...
I stayed alone.
What could you do then?
I could do nothing after.
I kept working,
I kept working,
and then came from the Judenrat.
Do you know what is Judenrat?
Judenrat is the...
They always organized a group of...
- Jews.
- Jews.
If they asked for something,
let's say, they came in
and arrested the 11 most important people
of the city,
and they asked for...
They were arrested on a bail,

English: 
- had been already killed...
- What?
After finding out
that your mother and your sister...
I stayed alone.
What could you do then?
I could do nothing after.
I kept working,
I kept working,
and then came from the Judenrat.
Do you know what is Judenrat?
Judenrat is the...
They always organized a group of...
- Jews.
- Jews.
If they asked for something,
let's say, they came in
and arrested the 11 most important people
of the city,
and they asked for...
They were arrested on a bail,

Spanish: 
and they asked for 100kgs of silver,
100kgs of gold, in 24 hours.
If they don’t bring them,
they will kill those 11 people.
So, these women, these ladies,
these mothers
of these people who were arrested,
went from house to house
and took away our rings,
our earrings,
and whatever it was.
There was chandeliers for the Hanukkah,
and everything.
They took everything away,
to fulfill what was due.
So, this is the committee.
So, after these two actions,
the committee came to my house one night,
and told me, "There are few people left.":

English: 
and they asked for 100kgs of silver,
100kgs of gold, in 24 hours.
If they don’t bring them,
they will kill those 11 people.
So, these women, these ladies,
these mothers
of these people who were arrested,
went from house to house
and took away our rings,
our earrings,
and whatever it was.
There was chandeliers for the Hanukkah,
and everything.
They took everything away,
to fulfill what was due.
So, this is the committee.
So, after these two actions,
the committee came to my house one night,
and told me, "There are few people left.":

English: 
And the city commander ordered
the next day at 8:00am
to come near the committee,
and there the commander will go
and will organize the place
where each person will work.
And I said: "I have my job,
I am not going.".
So, they got mad at me,
that I have to collaborate,
that I have to go,
that they never came to bother me.
Look, I have my brother.
He will go, too.
So, nothing will happen.
And I obeyed,
and I got dressed, got shaved,
and went where they told me.
And there I found about 600 men, only men.
And I stayed near them,

Spanish: 
And the city commander ordered
the next day at 8:00am
to come near the committee,
and there the commander will go
and will organize the place
where each person will work.
And I said: "I have my job,
I am not going.".
So, they got mad at me,
that I have to collaborate,
that I have to go,
that they never came to bother me.
Look, I have my brother.
He will go, too.
So, nothing will happen.
And I obeyed,
and I got dressed, got shaved,
and went where they told me.
And there I found about 600 men, only men.
And I stayed near them,

Spanish: 
and a policemen came
and put us like this,
in groups of 4,
and ordered us to march.
We marched for about half an hour.
And we got to the stadium,
where they play football.
We sat down.
When we went in,
they closed the doors.
They organized us
in groups of 4.
In the meantime,
the Gestapo came out from the dressing rooms.
And they started to gather 10.
10 x 4 = 40. To the truck.

English: 
and a policemen came
and put us like this,
in groups of 4,
and ordered us to march.
We marched for about half an hour.
And we got to the stadium,
where they play football.
We sat down.
When we went in,
they closed the doors.
They organized us
in groups of 4.
In the meantime,
the Gestapo came out from the dressing rooms.
And they started to gather 10.
10 x 4 = 40. To the truck.

English: 
I was getting hits and insults.
When I was already taken,
another group started,
another group, of 40, of 40.
Each truck was moving.
And when the people were already
asking why were they taking them.
Why voluntarily?
Voluntarily is much different
when they knock on your door
and they take you out
because each one tried to hide.
But here, voluntarily each person
was to look for a place to put him to work.

Spanish: 
I was getting hits and insults.
When I was already taken,
another group started,
another group, of 40, of 40.
Each truck was moving.
And when the people were already
asking why were they taking them.
Why voluntarily?
Voluntarily is much different
when they knock on your door
and they take you out
because each one tried to hide.
But here, voluntarily each person
was to look for a place to put him to work.

English: 
And when it was my group's turn,
the 40 to go up,
I saw the manager.
He drove with me.
And he had 11 Jews.
They were called valuable Jews,
which are specialists in each branch.
And he came with a list,
and talked with this Gestapo,
who gave these 11 people,
because he needs them.
So, they asked them:
"Go see if there's one left in the stadium,
but no one from the truck.
No one is going.
So, I was the only who was left
in the stadium,
and they took me out.
And the rest all left.
613 or 614 men.
And a policemen, then,
ordered to take me to the ghetto.

Spanish: 
And when it was my group's turn,
the 40 to go up,
I saw the manager.
He drove with me.
And he had 11 Jews.
They were called valuable Jews,
which are specialists in each branch.
And he came with a list,
and talked with this Gestapo,
who gave these 11 people,
because he needs them.
So, they asked them:
"Go see if there's one left in the stadium,
but no one from the truck.
No one is going.
So, I was the only who was left
in the stadium,
and they took me out.
And the rest all left.
613 or 614 men.
And a policemen, then,
ordered to take me to the ghetto.

Spanish: 
While getting near the ghetto,
there were wives, sons, daughters,
waiting to know which work
was assigned to the father.
And they found out
that no one came back.
No one came back.
So, they started to cry.
And these 613 people were taken to Auschwitz,
or I don't know where.
I stayed alone.
I stayed alone.
So, I went back to work,
and I worked for two or three days.
And they came from the committee and said
that there were no men left.

English: 
While getting near the ghetto,
there were wives, sons, daughters,
waiting to know which work
was assigned to the father.
And they found out
that no one came back.
No one came back.
So, they started to cry.
And these 613 people were taken to Auschwitz,
or I don't know where.
I stayed alone.
I stayed alone.
So, I went back to work,
and I worked for two or three days.
And they came from the committee and said
that there were no men left.

English: 
That they would organize a block in the ghetto.
A block of various apartments.
70 people were going to stay in this block.
And these 70 people are going to work
to clean the streets and do various works,
and you will not have to do it.
No danger, no danger.
So, I didn't have a chance to resist,
and I went to this block.
And we were 70.
And they took us out to work everyday.
How many Jewish people where in your town?

Spanish: 
That they would organize a block in the ghetto.
A block of various apartments.
70 people were going to stay in this block.
And these 70 people are going to work
to clean the streets and do various works,
and you will not have to do it.
No danger, no danger.
So, I didn't have a chance to resist,
and I went to this block.
And we were 70.
And they took us out to work everyday.
How many Jewish people where in your town?

English: 
In my town there were 5,000 permanent,
but with other small towns,
about 7,500.
And there were 74 left.
When they put you to work in the ghetto,
to clean streets.
We went to this block to clean streets,
and then, they dispatched all the furniture
the Jews left in their houses.
Pianos, radios... the railway took all of this,
and it was loaded in wagons
to Germany.

Spanish: 
In my town there were 5,000 permanent,
but with other small towns,
about 7,500.
And there were 74 left.
When they put you to work in the ghetto,
to clean streets.
We went to this block to clean streets,
and then, they dispatched all the furniture
the Jews left in their houses.
Pianos, radios... the railway took all of this,
and it was loaded in wagons
to Germany.

Spanish: 
And one day they ordered us...
since there were no trucks or cars,
there were horse carriages.
You know what horse carriages are.
So, they sent me and a friend
with this horse carriage to charge things
and take them to the railway.
And I went to a house in the ghetto,
and in this ghetto there was a...
how do you call it...
- An attic?
- Attic.
Inside the roof, you know.
- On the last floor of the house.
- The last floor.
So, I went there,
it was full of furniture and rags and clothes.

English: 
And one day they ordered us...
since there were no trucks or cars,
there were horse carriages.
You know what horse carriages are.
So, they sent me and a friend
with this horse carriage to charge things
and take them to the railway.
And I went to a house in the ghetto,
and in this ghetto there was a...
how do you call it...
- An attic?
- Attic.
Inside the roof, you know.
- On the last floor of the house.
- The last floor.
So, I went there,
it was full of furniture and rags and clothes.

English: 
I went there, and I opened a window
and started to throw the things,
and the truck was below.
And while I was throwing the things,
I felt a hand.
I felt a hand,
and I didn't know if it was alive.
Then, I felt it was still warm,
and uncovered and saw the face
of a beautiful little girl.
And her elder sister lived
in our house.
So, she told me:
"All my family should be here,
go look for them."
I've been hiding here for five days.
Go look for them and see if you find
my family.
And I was still throwing things
from time to time,
so they didn't find out what I was doing.

Spanish: 
I went there, and I opened a window
and started to throw the things,
and the truck was below.
And while I was throwing the things,
I felt a hand.
I felt a hand,
and I didn't know if it was alive.
Then, I felt it was still warm,
and uncovered and saw the face
of a beautiful little girl.
And her elder sister lived
in our house.
So, she told me:
"All my family should be here,
go look for them."
I've been hiding here for five days.
Go look for them and see if you find
my family.
And I was still throwing things
from time to time,
so they didn't find out what I was doing.

English: 
And I found one of her sisters, no more.
So, they said "We've been without water
for so many days.".
I said that I couldn't,
but I'll bring you water during the night.
I'll lend you a kerchief,
because they want to go out
during the night.
And during the night,
while no one was seeing me
I brought 2 liters of water
and the kerchiefs that a woman gifted me.
And I went up there,
I gave them the water,
and they told me that
before the war
their father had a storehouse,
a warehouse of fine kerchiefs.

Spanish: 
And I found one of her sisters, no more.
So, they said "We've been without water
for so many days.".
I said that I couldn't,
but I'll bring you water during the night.
I'll lend you a kerchief,
because they want to go out
during the night.
And during the night,
while no one was seeing me
I brought 2 liters of water
and the kerchiefs that a woman gifted me.
And I went up there,
I gave them the water,
and they told me that
before the war
their father had a storehouse,
a warehouse of fine kerchiefs.

Spanish: 
It was great.
And they made an agreement
with a non-Jew,
that they will give them
all this storehouse,
that once they can't live in the ghetto anymore,
so he can hide them.
And I gave the water to these two women,
and they went there,
and I helped them get out of the ghetto
while no one was seeing.
And they left,
and I went to the block to work.
I was paying attention
if they were not bringing dead people,
because it was very dangerous
during the night.
At 9:00pm there were no Jews left.
They couldn't.
And they got to this place.

English: 
It was great.
And they made an agreement
with a non-Jew,
that they will give them
all this storehouse,
that once they can't live in the ghetto anymore,
so he can hide them.
And I gave the water to these two women,
and they went there,
and I helped them get out of the ghetto
while no one was seeing.
And they left,
and I went to the block to work.
I was paying attention
if they were not bringing dead people,
because it was very dangerous
during the night.
At 9:00pm there were no Jews left.
They couldn't.
And they got to this place.

English: 
And I, one day, coming back from work,
at night,
the watchman told me that...
There was always a watchman
keeping watch of the block.
He told me, "Here's a letter
that a woman left."
And I saw the letter,
and I went up to the bathroom
and opened the letter,
and I saw the letter.
It was from those two women.
That this non-Jew
didn't want to keep them.
That he's kicking them out.
That please, if you can,
if you can help us,
and organize us there,
on that block,
they were going to work there, too.
That this woman,
the reply was coming next Wednesday,
at 7:30am.

Spanish: 
And I, one day, coming back from work,
at night,
the watchman told me that...
There was always a watchman
keeping watch of the block.
He told me, "Here's a letter
that a woman left."
And I saw the letter,
and I went up to the bathroom
and opened the letter,
and I saw the letter.
It was from those two women.
That this non-Jew
didn't want to keep them.
That he's kicking them out.
That please, if you can,
if you can help us,
and organize us there,
on that block,
they were going to work there, too.
That this woman,
the reply was coming next Wednesday,
at 7:30am.

English: 
I prepared a letter, a reply,
and on Wednesday I delivered
the reply.
It was that going there was not a plan,
because I was also thinking everyday
to escape from the block.
Because this block was not going to last
for much longer,
because the work is finishing.
So, I also thought about leaving.
But, if you want to,
talk to this man.
If he accepts me to go there
for a few days,
and from there to go together,
because I also have a non-Jew prepared.
And we go together,
if he allows us,

Spanish: 
I prepared a letter, a reply,
and on Wednesday I delivered
the reply.
It was that going there was not a plan,
because I was also thinking everyday
to escape from the block.
Because this block was not going to last
for much longer,
because the work is finishing.
So, I also thought about leaving.
But, if you want to,
talk to this man.
If he accepts me to go there
for a few days,
and from there to go together,
because I also have a non-Jew prepared.
And we go together,
if he allows us,

English: 
if he allows us,
if he allows us to be there for a few days.
And this lady accepted.
And one Sunday night,
it was raining a lot.
She brought me a straw hat and cigarettes,
because I smoked by that time.
And she was like 20 meters above,
and I was behind her.
We walked for about 1 hour and a half,
we arrived to this farm,
and we entered this farm
and she showed me,
she went up there,
where the animal food was.
And they were there.

Spanish: 
if he allows us,
if he allows us to be there for a few days.
And this lady accepted.
And one Sunday night,
it was raining a lot.
She brought me a straw hat and cigarettes,
because I smoked by that time.
And she was like 20 meters above,
and I was behind her.
We walked for about 1 hour and a half,
we arrived to this farm,
and we entered this farm
and she showed me,
she went up there,
where the animal food was.
And they were there.

Spanish: 
And I went up there
and found these two kids.
We were talking for the entire night
about how this was impacting their lives.
And now they're kicking them away.
And the explanation is
that he's scared.
He's scared, because Jews
were found hidden where the non-Jews were,
and they killed the Jews
and the non-Jew.
So, the next day,
one of them said that
he wanted to talk
to the man. And the man came.
The man was an employee
from the City Hall,

English: 
And I went up there
and found these two kids.
We were talking for the entire night
about how this was impacting their lives.
And now they're kicking them away.
And the explanation is
that he's scared.
He's scared, because Jews
were found hidden where the non-Jews were,
and they killed the Jews
and the non-Jew.
So, the next day,
one of them said that
he wanted to talk
to the man. And the man came.
The man was an employee
from the City Hall,

Spanish: 
and I started to talk to him.
I told him: "Look, I have these gold coins
that are worth a lot during the day.
And I will make a bunker
that no one will be able to find.
Why don't you try
to let the three of us stay for a while?
And then, if you don't like it,
I go with a friend of mine.
And I convinced him,
and he even came
when the bunker was ready.
And he didn't find it.
I said that he was going to look for it
but he wouldn't find it.
He didn't find the bunker.
It was very well done.
Then, the three of us went inside the bunker.

English: 
and I started to talk to him.
I told him: "Look, I have these gold coins
that are worth a lot during the day.
And I will make a bunker
that no one will be able to find.
Why don't you try
to let the three of us stay for a while?
And then, if you don't like it,
I go with a friend of mine.
And I convinced him,
and he even came
when the bunker was ready.
And he didn't find it.
I said that he was going to look for it
but he wouldn't find it.
He didn't find the bunker.
It was very well done.
Then, the three of us went inside the bunker.

English: 
It was so dark that there was
no difference if you had your eyes
open or closed.
You couldn't talk out loud.
You could only whisper.
Because there was a wall
that many people went near it
on the street.
Without cleaning, without showering,
without seeing what you were eating.
Flies could get in it.
There was no light.
And one was satisfied.
Hopefully I won't bother,
hopefully they'll leave us here
in these conditions.
And we were there.
And then the man came each time
with a newspaper about the Russians.
But are you waiting for the communists?
The Russians have lost this amount of planes,

Spanish: 
It was so dark that there was
no difference if you had your eyes
open or closed.
You couldn't talk out loud.
You could only whisper.
Because there was a wall
that many people went near it
on the street.
Without cleaning, without showering,
without seeing what you were eating.
Flies could get in it.
There was no light.
And one was satisfied.
Hopefully I won't bother,
hopefully they'll leave us here
in these conditions.
And we were there.
And then the man came each time
with a newspaper about the Russians.
But are you waiting for the communists?
The Russians have lost this amount of planes,

Spanish: 
and this amount of trucks
and this amount of tanks and people.
And today or tomorrow the Germans
will win the war.
And what am I going
to do with you?
What am I going to do with you?
And I said: Well, I don't want to bother.
If you want to, I have two proposals.
One is that I have something hidden
where I lived.
And I will manage to take it out
and gift it all to you.
Or we leave, but I'll let you know that
if we leave and they find us
on the streets,
that we'll have to say it.
They will torture us and they will ask us
where were we.
We will have to come to show
where we were.
And he was very scared.

English: 
and this amount of trucks
and this amount of tanks and people.
And today or tomorrow the Germans
will win the war.
And what am I going
to do with you?
What am I going to do with you?
And I said: Well, I don't want to bother.
If you want to, I have two proposals.
One is that I have something hidden
where I lived.
And I will manage to take it out
and gift it all to you.
Or we leave, but I'll let you know that
if we leave and they find us
on the streets,
that we'll have to say it.
They will torture us and they will ask us
where were we.
We will have to come to show
where we were.
And he was very scared.

English: 
He was very scared.
So, since I told him that I was
going to gift him things.
Do you want us to take this out
or it has no importance?
How did I take out the fur coats?
This has no importance.
We won't talk about it.
Tell me, how much time
were you in the bunker?
In the bunker, about 19 months.
- With the two girls.
- No, in the beginning, I was alone, hidden.
- In the factory. And then?
- And then with them.
How much time were you on the house
with them?
13 or 14 months.
Let's see. You and your family had fur coats
hidden in your house.
- Which is what you were talking about.
- Yes.

Spanish: 
He was very scared.
So, since I told him that I was
going to gift him things.
Do you want us to take this out
or it has no importance?
How did I take out the fur coats?
This has no importance.
We won't talk about it.
Tell me, how much time
were you in the bunker?
In the bunker, about 19 months.
- With the two girls.
- No, in the beginning, I was alone, hidden.
- In the factory. And then?
- And then with them.
How much time were you on the house
with them?
13 or 14 months.
Let's see. You and your family had fur coats
hidden in your house.
- Which is what you were talking about.
- Yes.

Spanish: 
How could you, knowing
the tax manager's wife living in house,
How could you do
so she wouldn't keep the coats?
I had to... this was a big risk,
but I had to take the risk.
And I lived everyday with many risks.
This man had a very stupid sister-in-law,
very dumb.
Her work was to go out
everyday with the cattle
to take care of it
when they go out to eat on the field.
And this lady,
the sister's lady started to prepare
that we are going to send
a letter with you,
and you will go to so-and-so place.
My husband will take you.
And you deliver the letter and leave.
If they ask you something, you leave.
You run away.

English: 
How could you, knowing
the tax manager's wife living in house,
How could you do
so she wouldn't keep the coats?
I had to... this was a big risk,
but I had to take the risk.
And I lived everyday with many risks.
This man had a very stupid sister-in-law,
very dumb.
Her work was to go out
everyday with the cattle
to take care of it
when they go out to eat on the field.
And this lady,
the sister's lady started to prepare
that we are going to send
a letter with you,
and you will go to so-and-so place.
My husband will take you.
And you deliver the letter and leave.
If they ask you something, you leave.
You run away.

English: 
And he waited outside,
and did it.
And what I wrote on the letter
was that I'm José Hochner,
you kicked me out of my apartment.
I went to the front
to live at this warehouse.
And we lived in the ghetto.
And then, I communicated
with a groups of partisans.
The partisans will know what
a group of guerrilla has to be given.
- Guerrilla?
- Guerrilla.
- Guerrilla or partisans.
- Yes.
And we were in a forest,
and we were suffering hunger.
I ask you. When you kicked me out,
I had hidden in my house such piece,
at such place, at such distance
from this to that.

Spanish: 
And he waited outside,
and did it.
And what I wrote on the letter
was that I'm José Hochner,
you kicked me out of my apartment.
I went to the front
to live at this warehouse.
And we lived in the ghetto.
And then, I communicated
with a groups of partisans.
The partisans will know what
a group of guerrilla has to be given.
- Guerrilla?
- Guerrilla.
- Guerrilla or partisans.
- Yes.
And we were in a forest,
and we were suffering hunger.
I ask you. When you kicked me out,
I had hidden in my house such piece,
at such place, at such distance
from this to that.

English: 
There you will find a board that moves
in front of you.
And there you will find,
covered with ground,
a big box with fur coats.
Because my father also in the summer,
in the summer you couldn't cut forests,
because there was a law.
When the tree is alive you can't cut it.
Only in winter, when it's dead,
when it has no leaves and nothing.
So, we've had money in the summer
because we couldn’t cut it.
So, we bought fur,
because fur was cheap in summer.
So, that's how you get profit.
I explained to him that
there were 22 furs,
that were worth a lot.

Spanish: 
There you will find a board that moves
in front of you.
And there you will find,
covered with ground,
a big box with fur coats.
Because my father also in the summer,
in the summer you couldn't cut forests,
because there was a law.
When the tree is alive you can't cut it.
Only in winter, when it's dead,
when it has no leaves and nothing.
So, we've had money in the summer
because we couldn’t cut it.
So, we bought fur,
because fur was cheap in summer.
So, that's how you get profit.
I explained to him that
there were 22 furs,
that were worth a lot.

English: 
I gift you this fur coat
for your work.
And 21, what these ladies left,
the sacks (of fur),
Do you know what costal (sacks) are?
Please pack the sacks that remain, please pack them
I'm not telling you what day
they are coming for this.
But when they come,
if you plan to stop them with police
or with Gestapo,
let me know that it's an armed group
that will come,
and it's your house and your life.
So, please understand me and do this,
and that's how you'll save yourself.
So, this day after 2 weeks,
we sent again.
This man left with the car,
and this lady behind.

Spanish: 
I gift you this fur coat
for your work.
And 21, what these ladies left,
the sacks (of fur),
Do you know what costal (sacks) are?
Please pack the sacks that remain, please pack them
I'm not telling you what day
they are coming for this.
But when they come,
if you plan to stop them with police
or with Gestapo,
let me know that it's an armed group
that will come,
and it's your house and your life.
So, please understand me and do this,
and that's how you'll save yourself.
So, this day after 2 weeks,
we sent again.
This man left with the car,
and this lady behind.

Spanish: 
We went out of this bunker,
and went through the corn and the wheat,
that grows very tall,
and we hid there.
We were hidden there
for the entire day.
Because they will suddenly stop them,
and they will come.
And this lady is dumb,
and they will say, "where does she live",
and she'll show where she lives.
We were hidden.
She came with the fur coats.
And I had a Polish friend,
and the fur coats were delivered
to this Polish. He also obtained a lot of money.
This money went to this man.

English: 
We went out of this bunker,
and went through the corn and the wheat,
that grows very tall,
and we hid there.
We were hidden there
for the entire day.
Because they will suddenly stop them,
and they will come.
And this lady is dumb,
and they will say, "where does she live",
and she'll show where she lives.
We were hidden.
She came with the fur coats.
And I had a Polish friend,
and the fur coats were delivered
to this Polish. He also obtained a lot of money.
This money went to this man.

English: 
Mr Hochner,
about what year are we talking about,
that you asked for the furs,
so this man could allow you
to keep living hidden in the bunker?
Do you remember the year?
Maybe at the end 1943.
Tell me, Mr Hochner.
You have mentioned the great friendship
you had with the Rabbi of your city.
- Yes.
- Could you tell me about what happened
- to the Rabbi and his family?
- Yes.
When we were at this block,
we had to do various jobs.

Spanish: 
Mr Hochner,
about what year are we talking about,
that you asked for the furs,
so this man could allow you
to keep living hidden in the bunker?
Do you remember the year?
Maybe at the end 1943.
Tell me, Mr Hochner.
You have mentioned the great friendship
you had with the Rabbi of your city.
- Yes.
- Could you tell me about what happened
- to the Rabbi and his family?
- Yes.
When we were at this block,
we had to do various jobs.

Spanish: 
And one night they woke us up,
and said that they found the Rabbi
in a bunker with his family.
And they brought them here,
so they could stay here,
until sunshine,
to send them to the cemetery.
The others went to bed,
got sleep again,
until next morning.
But since he was such a close friend,
like from my family,
I got dressed and went down with them.
And it was incredible, after one year
in a bunker.
With a dirty beard, I smelled bad...

English: 
And one night they woke us up,
and said that they found the Rabbi
in a bunker with his family.
And they brought them here,
so they could stay here,
until sunshine,
to send them to the cemetery.
The others went to bed,
got sleep again,
until next morning.
But since he was such a close friend,
like from my family,
I got dressed and went down with them.
And it was incredible, after one year
in a bunker.
With a dirty beard, I smelled bad...

English: 
And this Rabbi had one daughter,
who was a really close friend of my sister.
And in 1939, at the beginning of 1939,
a Rabbi's brother came
and fell in love
with the daughter of the sister,
and he married her.
And two or three months before the war,
they got on a ship.
My brother suffered a lot.
He said that he was going to have
to go too,
because he can't live without her.
And this daughter left.
And then, two daughters-in-law stayed.
One younger daughter, grandchildren.

Spanish: 
And this Rabbi had one daughter,
who was a really close friend of my sister.
And in 1939, at the beginning of 1939,
a Rabbi's brother came
and fell in love
with the daughter of the sister,
and he married her.
And two or three months before the war,
they got on a ship.
My brother suffered a lot.
He said that he was going to have
to go too,
because he can't live without her.
And this daughter left.
And then, two daughters-in-law stayed.
One younger daughter, grandchildren.

English: 
And I approached to where they were,
and I told them,
"I'm going to tell you with all the truth,
like a friend.".
When the sun rises two policemen will come
to take you to death.
And I suggest you,
when this policeman comes
to take you,
walking on the streets,
try to escape.
In either case they will kill you.
It doesn't matter if they kill you
while trying to escape,
or when you're there at the cemetery.
Maybe one of you will be saved.
But the fear was so great,
that one policeman was able to take
2,500 people,
and no one dared to move.

Spanish: 
And I approached to where they were,
and I told them,
"I'm going to tell you with all the truth,
like a friend.".
When the sun rises two policemen will come
to take you to death.
And I suggest you,
when this policeman comes
to take you,
walking on the streets,
try to escape.
In either case they will kill you.
It doesn't matter if they kill you
while trying to escape,
or when you're there at the cemetery.
Maybe one of you will be saved.
But the fear was so great,
that one policeman was able to take
2,500 people,
and no one dared to move.

English: 
Because of fear, and second reason
was that there was no place to go.
Because if you escape,
and a Polish finds you,
he'll kill you, too.
He'll kill you, too.
So, no one had this strength to escape.
They took them to the cemetery,
and the other four men
with the batons.
We went to the cemetery with them.
We prepared the hole
for a certain amount of people,
and when it was ready,
the Rabbi approached to the police,
talked in perfect German,
and said, "I ask you three favors
before my death.

Spanish: 
Because of fear, and second reason
was that there was no place to go.
Because if you escape,
and a Polish finds you,
he'll kill you, too.
He'll kill you, too.
So, no one had this strength to escape.
They took them to the cemetery,
and the other four men
with the batons.
We went to the cemetery with them.
We prepared the hole
for a certain amount of people,
and when it was ready,
the Rabbi approached to the police,
talked in perfect German,
and said, "I ask you three favors
before my death.

Spanish: 
First is to allow me to die with my tallis.
Do you know what a tallis is?
I want you to allow me to pray
before my death.
And I want to be killed at last,
because maybe in the meantime
a miracle happens,
and my family is saved,
and stays alive.
And then, he approached to me
and told me,
And he said, Yosele - I was called Yosele
And he said, Yosele - I was called Yosele
He said,  "You will survive the war,
and please you'll tell me daughter Sarah,
when and how we..."
When he told me that I was going
to survive the war.

English: 
First is to allow me to die with my tallis.
Do you know what a tallis is?
I want you to allow me to pray
before my death.
And I want to be killed at last,
because maybe in the meantime
a miracle happens,
and my family is saved,
and stays alive.
And then, he approached to me
and told me,
And he said, Yosele - I was called Yosele
And he said, Yosele - I was called Yosele
He said,  "You will survive the war,
and please you'll tell me daughter Sarah,
when and how we..."
When he told me that I was going
to survive the war.

English: 
It's like when you say go to the balcony
and jump to the floor, you'll stay alive.
That's something impossible.
How could I survive the war.
But I survived the war.
And then I went to Israel with my son,
and I knocked on the door,
and she already knew,
because I wrote her a letter.
And the story was to be recorded
and make a movie about it.
It was so sad.
And I stayed there for a while,
then he went to another room
and took out a tablecloth
that my sister embroidered
a gift for the marriage.
She said that it was a gift she wouldn't sell
for even millions.
But she wanted me to keep a keepsake
of my sister.
And she gifted me this tablecloth.

Spanish: 
It's like when you say go to the balcony
and jump to the floor, you'll stay alive.
That's something impossible.
How could I survive the war.
But I survived the war.
And then I went to Israel with my son,
and I knocked on the door,
and she already knew,
because I wrote her a letter.
And the story was to be recorded
and make a movie about it.
It was so sad.
And I stayed there for a while,
then he went to another room
and took out a tablecloth
that my sister embroidered
a gift for the marriage.
She said that it was a gift she wouldn't sell
for even millions.
But she wanted me to keep a keepsake
of my sister.
And she gifted me this tablecloth.

Spanish: 
This was the Rabbi's story.
But, we didn't, we finished...
What was left to finish?
Once...
Back to what we were talking about.
About your stay in the bunker.
That this Ukrainian man
was allowing you to stay
after receiving the fur.
How long could you stay,
after he received the fur coats?
- How long did we stay?
- Yes.
We stayed until the Russian (who invaded Poland from the East) came.
One week earlier, it could be heard
that the Russians were approaching.

English: 
This was the Rabbi's story.
But, we didn't, we finished...
What was left to finish?
Once...
Back to what we were talking about.
About your stay in the bunker.
That this Ukrainian man
was allowing you to stay
after receiving the fur.
How long could you stay,
after he received the fur coats?
- How long did we stay?
- Yes.
We stayed until the Russian (who invaded Poland from the East) came.
One week earlier, it could be heard
that the Russians were approaching.

Spanish: 
So, he came and told us,
"We and all the neighbors
will get out of here,
because the Germans,
where do they leave from?
Where do they leave from?
They burn everything.
They leave nothing,
so the Russian don't take
advantage of anything.
And they're burning everything.
So, everyone left.
We left water here, near you.
And our daily food
was corn flour.
He cooked for a week,
he left it in a pot,
and when she came to take out
the milk from the cow,
she gave us some milk,
and we ate daily.
Breakfast, and this food in the night.
This was daily.

English: 
So, he came and told us,
"We and all the neighbors
will get out of here,
because the Germans,
where do they leave from?
Where do they leave from?
They burn everything.
They leave nothing,
so the Russian don't take
advantage of anything.
And they're burning everything.
So, everyone left.
We left water here, near you.
And our daily food
was corn flour.
He cooked for a week,
he left it in a pot,
and when she came to take out
the milk from the cow,
she gave us some milk,
and we ate daily.
Breakfast, and this food in the night.
This was daily.

Spanish: 
Then, I asked him a favor,
because everything was getting burned,
and everything around was so flammable.
Why don't you open a little hole over there?
We may have to escape fast,
and it's hard.
So, he opened a hole,
he covered it with an iron plate and grass,
and the last night...
They left, we were alone, alone
at this zone.
And one night, Friday night,
at around 10:30 PM or 11:00 PM,
no one could walk on the streets,
just the army.

English: 
Then, I asked him a favor,
because everything was getting burned,
and everything around was so flammable.
Why don't you open a little hole over there?
We may have to escape fast,
and it's hard.
So, he opened a hole,
he covered it with an iron plate and grass,
and the last night...
They left, we were alone, alone
at this zone.
And one night, Friday night,
at around 10:30 PM or 11:00 PM,
no one could walk on the streets,
just the army.

English: 
We heard that they were opening the door, and that they were walking.
Since I didn't trust this man (the owner of the home), so I waited for him to order at this time,
when there were no neighbors
and no one was listening,
to kill us.
And I decided to open this hole,
to uncover it and escape.
When we went out of this hole,
and we thought about walking,
but we couldn't walk,
we went like doing like squats,
without moving the legs.
We were either sitting or lying down,
because you couldn't stand up, (their muscles wouldn't allow since they were in the bunker)
so it didn't work.
And we got to a neighbor's front,
and I realized that this neighbor
wasn't there,

Spanish: 
We heard that they were opening the door, and that they were walking.
Since I didn't trust this man (the owner of the home), so I waited for him to order at this time,
when there were no neighbors
and no one was listening,
to kill us.
And I decided to open this hole,
to uncover it and escape.
When we went out of this hole,
and we thought about walking,
but we couldn't walk,
we went like doing like squats,
without moving the legs.
We were either sitting or lying down,
because you couldn't stand up, (their muscles wouldn't allow since they were in the bunker)
so it didn't work.
And we got to a neighbor's front,
and I realized that this neighbor
wasn't there,

Spanish: 
and that there was a padlock on the door,
and I said, I'll pull this out,
and we'll enter here.
And I pulled out the door,
and we entered to this little house,
and I felt like I could talk,
like I could see the daylight.
I went down to the basement, and there was jelly and fruits
and things that they had,
and I had so much time without eating
these things.
And bombs fell many times,
and the house danced like this...
It was a little house,
but I wasn't afraid of this.
These few days were a paradise for us,
that we could talk,

English: 
and that there was a padlock on the door,
and I said, I'll pull this out,
and we'll enter here.
And I pulled out the door,
and we entered to this little house,
and I felt like I could talk,
like I could see the daylight.
I went down to the basement, and there was jelly and fruits
and things that they had,
and I had so much time without eating
these things.
And bombs fell many times,
and the house danced like this...
It was a little house,
but I wasn't afraid of this.
These few days were a paradise for us,
that we could talk,

Spanish: 
sleep on a bed...
I slept on a bed!
And we were there for a few days.
And then I heard that a Russian
knocked on the door,
and three Russians came
with their carbines
to take us with them.
"You are spies."
"We are not spies,
we suffered a lot here.
Come and I'll show you where we were hidden,
and our entire family was killed (by the Nazi's)."
The luck was that a lieutenant came,
a Jew, and left us.
I waited for a few days,
two days, and then the owner came (of the house where I was hiding)
to where I was.
I approached to him
to say goodbye,

English: 
sleep on a bed...
I slept on a bed!
And we were there for a few days.
And then I heard that a Russian
knocked on the door,
and three Russians came
with their carbines
to take us with them.
"You are spies."
"We are not spies,
we suffered a lot here.
Come and I'll show you where we were hidden,
and our entire family was killed (by the Nazi's)."
The luck was that a lieutenant came,
a Jew, and left us.
I waited for a few days,
two days, and then the owner came (of the house where I was hiding)
to where I was.
I approached to him
to say goodbye,

English: 
and he told me:
"Please give me your word
that you won't tell anyone
that I hid you
because I am very embarrassed
to have hidden Jews.
To have hidden Jews.
When I was hidden,
if he had known where I was,
he would have come to where you were
and kill you.
But first, he sold himself for the cash,
and second, for being afraid,
if he frees us,
so we would say where we were.
Once the Russians free you,
did you stay with the two girls?
- When... after...
- When you went to the little house,
and the Russians came,
did you hide...
Then we went to...
it wasn't my house.
My house was...
I was too sad to go to my house.

Spanish: 
and he told me:
"Please give me your word
that you won't tell anyone
that I hid you
because I am very embarrassed
to have hidden Jews.
To have hidden Jews.
When I was hidden,
if he had known where I was,
he would have come to where you were
and kill you.
But first, he sold himself for the cash,
and second, for being afraid,
if he frees us,
so we would say where we were.
Once the Russians free you,
did you stay with the two girls?
- When... after...
- When you went to the little house,
and the Russians came,
did you hide...
Then we went to...
it wasn't my house.
My house was...
I was too sad to go to my house.

Spanish: 
I didn't go to my house,
I went to another empty house.
They lived in an apartment.
I lived in another apartment.
Until... I will say it later.
At the end.
Why I retired from them.
What else are we...?
Were you in a refugee camp (DP camp)
after the war?
Refugees? No.
Tell me, how much time
did you stay in your town
after the Russians freed you?
In my town...
When the Russians came...
I have a certificate here,
that I showed it and they named me
department forest manager.

English: 
I didn't go to my house,
I went to another empty house.
They lived in an apartment.
I lived in another apartment.
Until... I will say it later.
At the end.
Why I retired from them.
What else are we...?
Were you in a refugee camp (DP camp)
after the war?
Refugees? No.
Tell me, how much time
did you stay in your town
after the Russians freed you?
In my town...
When the Russians came...
I have a certificate here,
that I showed it and they named me
department forest manager.

Spanish: 
And I had 4,500 workers
under my orders.
And I, since there was nothing to buy,
and everything was empty,
I received from one office in Lemberg...,
I received food for these people,
for the workers,
food, shoes, vodka.
So, I had a warehouse with this food,
and I named a young man to manage it.
And then, people started
to come to this warehouse.

English: 
And I had 4,500 workers
under my orders.
And I, since there was nothing to buy,
and everything was empty,
I received from one office in Lemberg...,
I received food for these people,
for the workers,
food, shoes, vodka.
So, I had a warehouse with this food,
and I named a young man to manage it.
And then, people started
to come to this warehouse.

English: 
Very important people came (the wives of the officers, governor, and the major)
and would take food baskets
and vodka baskets.
And there was a list of the names (of the people that were entitled to come and take)
but they (these women) would falsely sign their names
in order to account for the goods that were taken out.
And that's how it was during a certain time.
And then, one night they told me, (the two women that were hiding with me)
I wasn't in the house anymore,
they (the two women that were hiding with me) told me that the supervisor came
with three soldiers to look for me.
He himself had come (to the
warehouse) to steal!
and I didn't go back
to the house to sleep.
And he did a certificate for me,
because it was hard to find a ticket
without a permit,
and I was authorized to make
permits to any people
to find it.

Spanish: 
Very important people came (the wives of the officers, governor, and the major)
and would take food baskets
and vodka baskets.
And there was a list of the names (of the people that were entitled to come and take)
but they (these women) would falsely sign their names
in order to account for the goods that were taken out.
And that's how it was during a certain time.
And then, one night they told me, (the two women that were hiding with me)
I wasn't in the house anymore,
they (the two women that were hiding with me) told me that the supervisor came
with three soldiers to look for me.
He himself had come (to the
warehouse) to steal!
and I didn't go back
to the house to sleep.
And he did a certificate for me,
because it was hard to find a ticket
without a permit,
and I was authorized to make
permits to any people
to find it.

English: 
And I did that certificate,
and I went to buy tickets,
and I escaped.
I left everything,
without giving the keys,
without giving the seals (stamps to make a document official),
without giving many things. 
I abandoned it, and I left the two women,
I left the two women because I didn't know
where I was going.
- Where did you go?
- And one of those woman
worked at my office.
- Where did you go when you had to escape?
- I escaped and left without papers,
I had no passport nor anything.
I want to Czechoslovakia's border.

Spanish: 
And I did that certificate,
and I went to buy tickets,
and I escaped.
I left everything,
without giving the keys,
without giving the seals (stamps to make a document official),
without giving many things. 
I abandoned it, and I left the two women,
I left the two women because I didn't know
where I was going.
- Where did you go?
- And one of those woman
worked at my office.
- Where did you go when you had to escape?
- I escaped and left without papers,
I had no passport nor anything.
I want to Czechoslovakia's border.

Spanish: 
At Czechoslovakia's border
were a group of Jews,
and I went there and told them my case.
I asked for advice to be able
to go to Prague
because there was a JOINT (agency for Jewish refugees) in Prague
- Do you know what's a JOINT?
- Yes.
There's a JOINT,
and there they may help me.
So, these Jews from the border
told me, "You now what?
Give me this amount (of money),
and I'll find you a certificate,
because the Jews that lived there each
had a certificate (that indicates he has permission) that he goes to pray
to the synagogue
at the other side of the border.
And I found a certificate
that allows me to go pray.

English: 
At Czechoslovakia's border
were a group of Jews,
and I went there and told them my case.
I asked for advice to be able
to go to Prague
because there was a JOINT (agency for Jewish refugees) in Prague
- Do you know what's a JOINT?
- Yes.
There's a JOINT,
and there they may help me.
So, these Jews from the border
told me, "You now what?
Give me this amount (of money),
and I'll find you a certificate,
because the Jews that lived there each
had a certificate (that indicates he has permission) that he goes to pray
to the synagogue
at the other side of the border.
And I found a certificate
that allows me to go pray.

Spanish: 
So, I paid for them
and they gave me a certificate.
I already went with my wife in this time,
And we went...
we passed the border,
and then, to go to Prague
you need a passport,
you need the tickets.
We went to the train,
and at the train,
when they went to check your tickets
you got scared that they would ask you.
We passed and we went to Prague,
we arrived to Prague.
We couldn't go to a hotel
without passport.
Without a passport we can't.
So, we lived in Prague,
with a woman who was hiding.
She rented us a little room
and we lived at this little room

English: 
So, I paid for them
and they gave me a certificate.
I already went with my wife in this time,
And we went...
we passed the border,
and then, to go to Prague
you need a passport,
you need the tickets.
We went to the train,
and at the train,
when they went to check your tickets
you got scared that they would ask you.
We passed and we went to Prague,
we arrived to Prague.
We couldn't go to a hotel
without passport.
Without a passport we can't.
So, we lived in Prague,
with a woman who was hiding.
She rented us a little room
and we lived at this little room

Spanish: 
until the JOINT made us a traveler's passport,
which lasted for six months.
A "raise passe"... It was a travel pass.
Could you arrive with that pass?
With that pass I went to Paris,
and we were struggling to leave Paris
to the United States.
But they didn't allow us,
so we went to Colombia.
- This is already in 1947.
- Yes.
Tell me, Mr. Hochner - 
You talk about your wife,
- When did you get married?
- In 1946.
Was your wife a war survivor?
She was a Czechoslovakia survivor.
No, Romania.
Where did you meet?
First I had a warehouse in Poland,

English: 
until the JOINT made us a traveler's passport,
which lasted for six months.
A "raise passe"... It was a travel pass.
Could you arrive with that pass?
With that pass I went to Paris,
and we were struggling to leave Paris
to the United States.
But they didn't allow us,
so we went to Colombia.
- This is already in 1947.
- Yes.
Tell me, Mr. Hochner - 
You talk about your wife,
- When did you get married?
- In 1946.
Was your wife a war survivor?
She was a Czechoslovakia survivor.
No, Romania.
Where did you meet?
First I had a warehouse in Poland,

Spanish: 
and this woman came to the warehouse,
and someone surely told her to go,
and there we met, and we married.
Tell me, Mr. Hochner,
you told me about an experience you had
when you had to testify
against a thief, murderer,
who had helped
for many Jews to die.
This day was in Poland.
In Poland, in Breslau.
So, one day the governor came.
The governor was from my town.

English: 
and this woman came to the warehouse,
and someone surely told her to go,
and there we met, and we married.
Tell me, Mr. Hochner,
you told me about an experience you had
when you had to testify
against a thief, murderer,
who had helped
for many Jews to die.
This day was in Poland.
In Poland, in Breslau.
So, one day the governor came.
The governor was from my town.

Spanish: 
He was son of a communist shoemaker,
and he was the governor of this city,
and he came with a Jeep behind him
with policemen,
and told me, "Look, José,
they took Kriegel.".
When I say Kriegel,
I am saying like worse than Hemler,
worse than any Gestapo.
Because this man was so evil.
He was a "Volksdeutsche"
he wasn't German.
He was...
Do do you when they carried
these wagons with Jews to Auschwitz?
Each Jew used a... had
a pliers, a handsaw, a screwdriver hidden,
that they suddenly take out.

English: 
He was son of a communist shoemaker,
and he was the governor of this city,
and he came with a Jeep behind him
with policemen,
and told me, "Look, José,
they took Kriegel.".
When I say Kriegel,
I am saying like worse than Hemler,
worse than any Gestapo.
Because this man was so evil.
He was a "Volksdeutsche"
he wasn't German.
He was...
Do do you when they carried
these wagons with Jews to Auschwitz?
Each Jew used a... had
a pliers, a handsaw, a screwdriver hidden,
that they suddenly take out.

Spanish: 
Since they were wagons without windows,
without doors, and they sealed the doors,
during the way each one started
making holes
with a screwdriver, with a knife,
to escape.
This was too risky.
First, risky.
Imagine to escape from this hole
while the train is...
And then, on the roof there always
were Gestapos watching us.
But they took the risk,
because no one wanted to go to Auschwitz.
This bandit, this Kriegel already knew
when these trains pass,
and he waited there,
where they jumped,
and he took them.
If they stayed alive,
if they stayed alive after jumping,
he did it with the business,
that they have to pay such amount.
It doesn't have to be cash.
It can be diamonds, gold,
but if you don't, I take him.

English: 
Since they were wagons without windows,
without doors, and they sealed the doors,
during the way each one started
making holes
with a screwdriver, with a knife,
to escape.
This was too risky.
First, risky.
Imagine to escape from this hole
while the train is...
And then, on the roof there always
were Gestapos watching us.
But they took the risk,
because no one wanted to go to Auschwitz.
This bandit, this Kriegel already knew
when these trains pass,
and he waited there,
where they jumped,
and he took them.
If they stayed alive,
if they stayed alive after jumping,
he did it with the business,
that they have to pay such amount.
It doesn't have to be cash.
It can be diamonds, gold,
but if you don't, I take him.

Spanish: 
If he fell and was dead,
he tried to take off his gold teeth.
He undressed him and started to search
because he knew that every Jew
has something hidden.
If he (Kriegel) would find a Jew in the streets past
the time that they would be allowed to be outside,
the fear was not of the Germans,
he was afraid of Kreigel.
If he catches him.
"Look, you have no right,
this is worth 500 pesos,
this is worth such amount.
And that's how did man made a fortune.
If he entered to a Jew house,
and showed them "I am Kreigel",
then they all trembled in fear.

English: 
If he fell and was dead,
he tried to take off his gold teeth.
He undressed him and started to search
because he knew that every Jew
has something hidden.
If he (Kriegel) would find a Jew in the streets past
the time that they would be allowed to be outside,
the fear was not of the Germans,
he was afraid of Kreigel.
If he catches him.
"Look, you have no right,
this is worth 500 pesos,
this is worth such amount.
And that's how did man made a fortune.
If he entered to a Jew house,
and showed them "I am Kreigel",
then they all trembled in fear.

Spanish: 
Imagine that this Kriegel was taken,
and he had a fortune of bags with diamonds,
gold, that he stole.
He was married.
And he also lived in Poland,
like three hours away from this town
where I lived.
And this governor was told that he was in jail,
and so and so day,
I forgot the date,
he was going to be processed.
And you, José,
are the only witness who can certify.
Because there are no more.
And you know very well about this.
I said, "My lady, it's too dangerous.
I don't want you to be at home."
And I got into this jeep
with this governor,
and policemen where behind.
And we took three hours,
and we arrived at 8:30.

English: 
Imagine that this Kriegel was taken,
and he had a fortune of bags with diamonds,
gold, that he stole.
He was married.
And he also lived in Poland,
like three hours away from this town
where I lived.
And this governor was told that he was in jail,
and so and so day,
I forgot the date,
he was going to be processed.
And you, José,
are the only witness who can certify.
Because there are no more.
And you know very well about this.
I said, "My lady, it's too dangerous.
I don't want you to be at home."
And I got into this jeep
with this governor,
and policemen where behind.
And we took three hours,
and we arrived at 8:30.

Spanish: 
We went to the judge.
So, in the halls there were witnesses
that the woman prepared,
paying, buying witnesses.
That he was a God,
that he didn't do anything.
And I was the only one.
I entered. And this governor approached
to where the man was, and said,
"My name is so and so,
and I'm from the communist party,
and he showed us who he was,
and be careful with this process
because he was worse than any Gestapo.
And I was sitting.
What happened through my mind
at this moments... many times I asked to myself
"Is this me?"
"Is this me?" Here at a judge.

English: 
We went to the judge.
So, in the halls there were witnesses
that the woman prepared,
paying, buying witnesses.
That he was a God,
that he didn't do anything.
And I was the only one.
I entered. And this governor approached
to where the man was, and said,
"My name is so and so,
and I'm from the communist party,
and he showed us who he was,
and be careful with this process
because he was worse than any Gestapo.
And I was sitting.
What happened through my mind
at this moments... many times I asked to myself
"Is this me?"
"Is this me?" Here at a judge.

English: 
Me, who saw Kriegel,
and Kriegel is now sitting down.
And now I'm going to talk
about Kriegel?
Is this really me?
I could not imagine! 
I was afraid of having a heart attack
Just by thinking and watching him
all the time.
Then, they started to call the witnesses,
and each witness talked, talked,
and then, at last they called José Hochner.
I approached and told him
if it was going to be too funny
after so many men who said
and many women who said
that his was an angel,
that he didn't do anything,
that he's not guilty.

Spanish: 
Me, who saw Kriegel,
and Kriegel is now sitting down.
And now I'm going to talk
about Kriegel?
Is this really me?
I could not imagine! 
I was afraid of having a heart attack
Just by thinking and watching him
all the time.
Then, they started to call the witnesses,
and each witness talked, talked,
and then, at last they called José Hochner.
I approached and told him
if it was going to be too funny
after so many men who said
and many women who said
that his was an angel,
that he didn't do anything,
that he's not guilty.

English: 
And I come and tell incredible things
about what this men did.
Why would they believe me?
Why wouldn't they believe
what the rest said?
Why me?
But, I brought with me a book
about the first week when the war ended.
Kriegel wasn't in jail yet,
they didn't know about Kriegel yet,
and they didn't know
if they were going to take him.
But here are three pages.
Page 43, 44, 45.
They write about Kriegel here,
who is Kriegel.
And please read these three pages,
and I have nothing to tell you.
So, they read these pages
and the next day the hung him.

Spanish: 
And I come and tell incredible things
about what this men did.
Why would they believe me?
Why wouldn't they believe
what the rest said?
Why me?
But, I brought with me a book
about the first week when the war ended.
Kriegel wasn't in jail yet,
they didn't know about Kriegel yet,
and they didn't know
if they were going to take him.
But here are three pages.
Page 43, 44, 45.
They write about Kriegel here,
who is Kriegel.
And please read these three pages,
and I have nothing to tell you.
So, they read these pages
and the next day the hung him.

Spanish: 
Mr. Hochner, you were telling me
about how being the only witness,
you set that man to hung him
to kill him for all the crimes
- that he committed.
- Yes.
After this judgment,
you leave to Czechoslovakia,
and then you managed to move to Paris,
to get the Visa to...
- No, this about Kriegel was way after the war.
- Way after.
Yes.
- In what year are we talking about?
- This may be 1948.
1948.

English: 
Mr. Hochner, you were telling me
about how being the only witness,
you set that man to hung him
to kill him for all the crimes
- that he committed.
- Yes.
After this judgment,
you leave to Czechoslovakia,
and then you managed to move to Paris,
to get the Visa to...
- No, this about Kriegel was way after the war.
- Way after.
Yes.
- In what year are we talking about?
- This may be 1948.
1948.

Spanish: 
- When did you get the permission to leave?
- To leave where?
To Colombia. That they didn't let you
enter to the USA.
- That was in 1948.
- 1948.
So this was before getting the visa,
that you testified against Kriegel.
Yes.
Once you arrive to Colombia,
where could you work?
How could you redo your life?
Well, when I came to Colombia,
I came without money
because when I settled my business
in Poland,
there was too much money.
I could have lived from interests
without working.
But it was Poland money.
But when I had to leave
and buy dollars

English: 
- When did you get the permission to leave?
- To leave where?
To Colombia. That they didn't let you
enter to the USA.
- That was in 1948.
- 1948.
So this was before getting the visa,
that you testified against Kriegel.
Yes.
Once you arrive to Colombia,
where could you work?
How could you redo your life?
Well, when I came to Colombia,
I came without money
because when I settled my business
in Poland,
there was too much money.
I could have lived from interests
without working.
But it was Poland money.
But when I had to leave
and buy dollars

Spanish: 
and gold coins to be able to live there,
then, I spent all the money
during the three months
while I was getting the visa.
I even was at a very poor hotel.
And...
Then, my job didn't work
in Colombia,
because the wood,
first, they have very different
qualities and names,
and the distances and all.
This was not a business for a Jew.
Then, I started with a soap business,
and my father in law
had a soap factory.
And he more or less talked to me,
and I started to practice,
and I went to another city,
to not be his competition.

English: 
and gold coins to be able to live there,
then, I spent all the money
during the three months
while I was getting the visa.
I even was at a very poor hotel.
And...
Then, my job didn't work
in Colombia,
because the wood,
first, they have very different
qualities and names,
and the distances and all.
This was not a business for a Jew.
Then, I started with a soap business,
and my father in law
had a soap factory.
And he more or less talked to me,
and I started to practice,
and I went to another city,
to not be his competition.

English: 
And I went, and I started with soaps.
I started with 50kg of daily production.
When I left Colombia
I even had 20,000kg a day.
Very accredited, established brand, and all.
And I still to this date
miss my business,
because everyone
appreciated that a man
who came with just a pair of pants...
and my brand was like what Coca-Cola is here
or Marlboro.
Very accredited.
But due to certain things
about the family I had to move on
and leave.
- How many children do you have?
- I have three.
- I have two daughters and one son.
- How many grandchildren do you have?
I have eight.
I have eight grandchildren.

Spanish: 
And I went, and I started with soaps.
I started with 50kg of daily production.
When I left Colombia
I even had 20,000kg a day.
Very accredited, established brand, and all.
And I still to this date
miss my business,
because everyone
appreciated that a man
who came with just a pair of pants...
and my brand was like what Coca-Cola is here
or Marlboro.
Very accredited.
But due to certain things
about the family I had to move on
and leave.
- How many children do you have?
- I have three.
- I have two daughters and one son.
- How many grandchildren do you have?
I have eight.
I have eight grandchildren.

English: 
Tell me, Mr Hochner.
What is your message to your grandchildren,
to your children,
to the next generations to come.
Now that more than 50 years have passed
after the end of the war.
What is your message for all the people
listening to your story?
Well, what message can I leave
after this?
I know that the anti-Semitism grows
more and more daily.
Israel is still very uncertain and very...
I always insist to prepare.
Always be prepared to defend yourself.
To know something.

Spanish: 
Tell me, Mr Hochner.
What is your message to your grandchildren,
to your children,
to the next generations to come.
Now that more than 50 years have passed
after the end of the war.
What is your message for all the people
listening to your story?
Well, what message can I leave
after this?
I know that the anti-Semitism grows
more and more daily.
Israel is still very uncertain and very...
I always insist to prepare.
Always be prepared to defend yourself.
To know something.

Spanish: 
And the things that you see
that every day is harder. More.
Two sons of my son are very religious,
because he's a Rabbi,
and the others are not religious,
but they're still too little.
They in any way know
what anti-Semitism is.
I often tell them about it.
And what message can I give?
This is very hard. Very hard.
Why do you think you survived, all this pain,
all this suffering?
Well, my son says that is from God.
That my father was very religious,
and my mother pushed me to go
sleep elsewhere.
That everything is in God's hands.

English: 
And the things that you see
that every day is harder. More.
Two sons of my son are very religious,
because he's a Rabbi,
and the others are not religious,
but they're still too little.
They in any way know
what anti-Semitism is.
I often tell them about it.
And what message can I give?
This is very hard. Very hard.
Why do you think you survived, all this pain,
all this suffering?
Well, my son says that is from God.
That my father was very religious,
and my mother pushed me to go
sleep elsewhere.
That everything is in God's hands.

English: 
I unfortunately was very religious,
but after watching all this,
after watching so many kids being killed.
Mothers killed their children in the bunkers
because they heard the Gestapo was passing
to save themselves.
And she killed a girl.
It doesn't enter your mind all of this (it's incomprehensible)
So, all this diverts oneself.
It diverts/deviates oneself.
Mr. Hochner, thank you very much
for getting us this interview.
For sharing all this with us
and the rest of the world
that is hearing your so dramatic story.
And, truly, it's a honor for me
to have listened to your story.
- Thank you very much.
- Thank you.
And without looking.
I didn't even look at it.
You're very kind.
Thank you very much.

Spanish: 
I unfortunately was very religious,
but after watching all this,
after watching so many kids being killed.
Mothers killed their children in the bunkers
because they heard the Gestapo was passing
to save themselves.
And she killed a girl.
It doesn't enter your mind all of this (it's incomprehensible)
So, all this diverts oneself.
It diverts/deviates oneself.
Mr. Hochner, thank you very much
for getting us this interview.
For sharing all this with us
and the rest of the world
that is hearing your so dramatic story.
And, truly, it's a honor for me
to have listened to your story.
- Thank you very much.
- Thank you.
And without looking.
I didn't even look at it.
You're very kind.
Thank you very much.

Spanish: 
Are we going to start with this
or with the grandchildren?
To see if they are
at the corridor.
We'll see them later.
Thank you very much.
My father. He's the only one who had
a normal death.
He died from an illness.
His name is Elías Hochner,
and he was very religious,
and he never allowed anyone
to take them photos.
No one had photos of him.
But when I was freed,
I entered to the town hall,
which is the city hall,
and there each one had his sheet
with his photo and signature,
and there they gifted me this photo.
This is my sister,
whose name was Chana,
and this was her husband.

English: 
Are we going to start with this
or with the grandchildren?
To see if they are
at the corridor.
We'll see them later.
Thank you very much.
My father. He's the only one who had
a normal death.
He died from an illness.
His name is Elías Hochner,
and he was very religious,
and he never allowed anyone
to take them photos.
No one had photos of him.
But when I was freed,
I entered to the town hall,
which is the city hall,
and there each one had his sheet
with his photo and signature,
and there they gifted me this photo.
This is my sister,
whose name was Chana,
and this was her husband.

English: 
They were taken to Auschwitz
in 1942 with the children.
This was Erev Pesach.
The table was set, and all.
And two hours before they came
and they took them out.
These are my sister's two children.
One was 9 years old,
whose name was Sheindele Fuchs
and the other was called Dovid Fuchs.
They were taken with their mom
to send them to Auschwitz.
These are two sisters.
One is in the second row.
Her name was Freida Reinman.
And the other is in the center.

Spanish: 
They were taken to Auschwitz
in 1942 with the children.
This was Erev Pesach.
The table was set, and all.
And two hours before they came
and they took them out.
These are my sister's two children.
One was 9 years old,
whose name was Sheindele Fuchs
and the other was called Dovid Fuchs.
They were taken with their mom
to send them to Auschwitz.
These are two sisters.
One is in the second row.
Her name was Freida Reinman.
And the other is in the center.

Spanish: 
Then, in the third row.
Who was called Roza Reinman
I was with these two women
in a bunker for more than 13 months.
And every Jew had to use a Star of David,
with a white flag.
My sign had the W,
which is called WEHRMACHT/WERTMACHER
which indicated I worked as a wood specialist,
so I had certain...
that I could be outside at later hours,
and I could get out of the ghetto.
Mr. José. When did they give you
this emblem?
They gave me it when I started
work with them, in 1941.

English: 
Then, in the third row.
Who was called Roza Reinman
I was with these two women
in a bunker for more than 13 months.
And every Jew had to use a Star of David,
with a white flag.
My sign had the W,
which is called WEHRMACHT/WERTMACHER
which indicated I worked as a wood specialist,
so I had certain...
that I could be outside at later hours,
and I could get out of the ghetto.
Mr. José. When did they give you
this emblem?
They gave me it when I started
work with them, in 1941.

English: 
This is my house, where I was born.
And this house was built
with four apartments,
because my father always dreamed
that all his children
would live under the same roof.
And at this house,
when the Rabbi, Belzer Rebbe, passed by our town,
he lived at this house,
where we were.
When was this photo taken?
I was with my children in 1990.
We went to Auschwitz and the Warsaw Ghetto, and Russia.
And we went to my town
because my children wanted to see
the house where I lived.
Mr. José,
could you tell us what is this photo?

Spanish: 
This is my house, where I was born.
And this house was built
with four apartments,
because my father always dreamed
that all his children
would live under the same roof.
And at this house,
when the Rabbi, Belzer Rebbe, passed by our town,
he lived at this house,
where we were.
When was this photo taken?
I was with my children in 1990.
We went to Auschwitz and the Warsaw Ghetto, and Russia.
And we went to my town
because my children wanted to see
the house where I lived.
Mr. José,
could you tell us what is this photo?

English: 
This is the synagogue.
That when the war broke out,
was 360 years old.
Today it's more than 400 years old.
When the Germans came in,
they destroyed everything inside.
The Torahs, everything.
And they threw Jews there,
and they poured gasoline over them
and burned more than 40 people.
And this synagogue is very historical.
This is from a Sovietsky king,
who built this synagogue,
and they never allowed anyone to renew
the external part of the synagogue.
Just inside, so it always had
its natural color outside.
This is the Rabbi of our city.

Spanish: 
This is the synagogue.
That when the war broke out,
was 360 years old.
Today it's more than 400 years old.
When the Germans came in,
they destroyed everything inside.
The Torahs, everything.
And they threw Jews there,
and they poured gasoline over them
and burned more than 40 people.
And this synagogue is very historical.
This is from a Sovietsky king,
who built this synagogue,
and they never allowed anyone to renew
the external part of the synagogue.
Just inside, so it always had
its natural color outside.
This is the Rabbi of our city.

English: 
Her daughter was
a really close friend of my sister.
I was present when he was killed
at the cemetery.
He was found one year
hidden in a bunker.
Before they killed him,
he approached to me
and asked me,
"Please tell my daughter
when and how I was killed."
And I went to Israel and I told his daughter
what date and how he was killed.
He asked the German
to allow him to put on his tallis,

Spanish: 
Her daughter was
a really close friend of my sister.
I was present when he was killed
at the cemetery.
He was found one year
hidden in a bunker.
Before they killed him,
he approached to me
and asked me,
"Please tell my daughter
when and how I was killed."
And I went to Israel and I told his daughter
what date and how he was killed.
He asked the German
to allow him to put on his tallis,

Spanish: 
and they allowed him to pray
before his death.
And he asked them to kill him first,
because maybe a miracle can happen.
So, his family could be saved.
This is a cutout of a Poland newspaper.
Two years after the war.
When they took one greater bandit,
and he had many many people
under his responsibility.
He killed people.
He went to the cemetery and took
the people out
to take their teeth.
- Mr. José, how was that man called?
- He was callled Mr. Kriegel.
And he was a "Volksdeutsche". (people whose language and culture had German origins but who did not hold German citizenship)

English: 
and they allowed him to pray
before his death.
And he asked them to kill him first,
because maybe a miracle can happen.
So, his family could be saved.
This is a cutout of a Poland newspaper.
Two years after the war.
When they took one greater bandit,
and he had many many people
under his responsibility.
He killed people.
He went to the cemetery and took
the people out
to take their teeth.
- Mr. José, how was that man called?
- He was callled Mr. Kriegel.
And he was a "Volksdeutsche". (people whose language and culture had German origins but who did not hold German citizenship)

English: 
In this article it's mentioned
that you were the only witness.
And in this article,
it's in the city where they lived, Poland.
The governor approached,
who was Jew,
neighbor of my town.
And he told him that he was arrested
and I was the only witness
who could talk about him.
And he had many paid witnesses,
saying that he didn't do anything,
that he wasn't guilty.
- And thanks to you...
- He was hung the day after.
This is from the book that was written
in Israel about the Rabbi,
when I was present,
when he was killed at the cemetery.
This is a book written that is called [INAUDIBLE],
that a professor wrote
one year after the war.

Spanish: 
In this article it's mentioned
that you were the only witness.
And in this article,
it's in the city where they lived, Poland.
The governor approached,
who was Jew,
neighbor of my town.
And he told him that he was arrested
and I was the only witness
who could talk about him.
And he had many paid witnesses,
saying that he didn't do anything,
that he wasn't guilty.
- And thanks to you...
- He was hung the day after.
This is from the book that was written
in Israel about the Rabbi,
when I was present,
when he was killed at the cemetery.
This is a book written that is called [INAUDIBLE],
that a professor wrote
one year after the war.

English: 
And in this book he's showing
that from the 7,500 Jews (of the area of Jolkiew),  74 remained/survived.
And in this book Kriegel is also mentioned.
And this helped me a lot
when I was a witness,
to talk about who was Kriegel.
And he had so many paid witnesses....
So, in this book there are three pages
where it tells,
before he was taken,
they already talked about Kriegel.
And this helped me a lot
to get him killed.
Mr. José, here we have people
who have gathered with you.
Tell us. Who are they?
They are my two daughters
and my son,
and my grandchildren.
My son in law is here.
This is my entire family.

Spanish: 
And in this book he's showing
that from the 7,500 Jews (of the area of Jolkiew),  74 remained/survived.
And in this book Kriegel is also mentioned.
And this helped me a lot
when I was a witness,
to talk about who was Kriegel.
And he had so many paid witnesses....
So, in this book there are three pages
where it tells,
before he was taken,
they already talked about Kriegel.
And this helped me a lot
to get him killed.
Mr. José, here we have people
who have gathered with you.
Tell us. Who are they?
They are my two daughters
and my son,
and my grandchildren.
My son in law is here.
This is my entire family.

English: 
Daddy, I want to tell you
that I'm very proud of you,
and how you have survived
this horrible experience,
and also want to thank you for the trip.
It was very meaningful to me
to see where you were born,
and be so close to your story.
Thank you.

Spanish: 
Daddy, I want to tell you
that I'm very proud of you,
and how you have survived
this horrible experience,
and also want to thank you for the trip.
It was very meaningful to me
to see where you were born,
and be so close to your story.
Thank you.
