Sarah: Hi, welcome to our live Photography
Conservation Q&A.
I'm Sarah Meister, a curator in the department
of photography here at MoMA.
Lee Ann: And I'm Lee Ann Daffner, the conservator
of photography here at MoMA.
Today we are in the photo conservation lab
at MoMA.
And we saw that there were so many wonderful
questions that came in from the viewers that
we thought in order to give everybody a little
time to get settled, we might take a minute
to give a tour of our facilities here.
Not many people get a chance to have this
sort of behind the scenes.
Sarah: I love this space, so we thought we'd
share it a little bit.
Let's start at your desk.
Lee Ann: Come look at where I do the work on the photography collection.
Sarah: So, we picked a few things that we
thought might be particularly interesting.
And I thought one of these is a recent acquisition.
This falls under the category of things that
we say, that we really can't responsibly
put on view, at least for any length of time.
And so, we thought it would be fun to show
you exactly what it is, but I let Lee Ann
hold things when I'm not wearing gloves.
Lee Ann: Okay.
Well, if you come a little bit closer, you
might see that there's a little package here
on my work table.
It houses an auto chrome, which is a late
19th, early 20th century color photographic process.
The package is designed to protect this work
of art because it's glass.
And it's a unique object and we absolutely
do not want to break the object.
So, we have a little four flap enclosure.
I'm going to pull it out, handle very carefully.
And then if you look through, you may see,
I have it held up against one of our windows.
This is a very precious and unusual process.
The image dye is made from dyed potato starch grains.
And this particular plate was in the camera
that Alfred Stieglitz had on that rooftop
that day back in... What year do you think this is?
Sarah: 1918, we think.
But, Lee Ann, maybe one more thing about when
you're holding it up.
One of the reasons that Lee Ann's desk is
right here is that it faces north.
And so most... would you say most conservation
studios are designed this way?
Lee Ann: Whenever possible.
The northern light is the most even light
that you can get.
Southern light is very bright, but it's uneven
throughout the day.
So very often, conservation labs will position
their work tables and their easels right around
that north facing light so that you can actually
maximize, you know, your working hours throughout
the day.
Sarah: So maybe you'll show us a little bit,
we pulled an another print that Lee Ann's
working on and this way you can... or even
though in like galleries, we try to have the
lighting be as even as possible, so as to
de-accentuate the flaws.
When Lee Ann's working on things, she likes
northern light or raking light to make them
as obvious as possible.
And so, maybe you can show us what you're
doing with this one.
Lee Ann: No, absolutely.
What Sarah was saying was so true.
In fact, light is one of the tools that we
use.
We have to be able to see the object and the
materials so that we can understand the conditions,
so that we can understand what needs to happen
with this particular work of art.
This is for an upcoming exhibition and it's
in the lab because it's on an original 1955
mount, but it was quite worn around the edges.
And so, I've been consolidating with a material
that will hold the gelatin flaps in place.
And then I'm doing cosmetic integration with
specially formulized watercolors that are
perfect for the use, you know, filling in
the little losses.
Sarah: Can I just point out two little things
that might be of interest.
One is that you can actually see where there
were pins that held this mounted print in
place at one point.
And do you want to flip it over so we can
show?
Lee Ann: Oh, sure.
Yeah, it's really interesting.
Sarah: And then the backside of it is, you
can see the two areas where there were blocks
glued to the back of the print and a wire
hung between them.
And that's actually how these prints were
displayed.
So while we wouldn't do this now, we certainly
are more and more trying to respect the original
display and that's something I really love
about this work by Otto Steinert.
Lee Ann: Yeah.
No, we want to try to preserve as much of
the history of the object as possible.
And so that exhibition is definitely part
of it.
Sarah: Should we go maybe to the microscope
for a little bit because we...
Lee Ann and I...
Lee Ann: All right. Let's go over here.
Sarah: So this is a photograph by Bill Brandt.
It's maybe a little hard to see with the mylar,
so I'll lift this, of Jean Dubuffet's eye.
And this photograph was a really exciting
one to look at under the microscope.
Lee Ann and I... and now I leave it to her.
Lee Ann: Well, we carried out an extensive
survey of Bill Brandt photographs and it was
an amazing opportunity to look at a body of work
and understand the materials, the techniques.
How did Bill Brandt enhance a photograph that
he had already spent so much time taking and
developing.
And, you know, cropping really in a very special
and precise way.
So, in fact, Bill Brandt was a very heavy
retoucher.
And so, what we're going to look at under
the microscope now is some retouch around
the eye.
So, let's...
Sarah: And one of the things Lee Ann helped
me understand was that there are different
kinds of retouching and she categorized them
in this book so that we think of them as additive
retouching and reductive retouching.
Lee Ann: Exactly.
Sarah: And they're all of these different
categories that once you're looking at them
under the microscope, you can see it super
clearly, even if to the naked eye, you just...
They seem like emphasis.
Lee Ann: Exactly.
I mean, that was the whole idea.
He wanted the viewer to be able to look at
the photograph and see, you know, the bright
streaks in the eyeball or see the deep crevices
in the wrinkles.
And he enhanced that by either carefully etching
away, which we can see now.
I don't know if you've moved it, but that's
okay.
Sarah: Oh, sorry.
Did you have it on an etch?
Lee Ann: Yeah, there you go.
Do you see right around the eyelid there's
little white, very bright white patches and
then in the crevices of the wrinkles he's
just taken, you know, a brush and some ink
and he's really enhanced that.
Do you want to have a look?
Sarah: Sure.
Always.
Never turn down an opportunity to look in
a conservator's microscope because you...
It makes it look almost like a moonscape.
Lee Ann: It's completely different way of
looking at surfaces and materials.
This is a surgical, a stereo surgical microscope.
And so, you get the complete 3D experience
as opposed to a regular research microscope
that just has one ocular.
Maybe some people have, you know, in their
science classes use one of those.
But this one has two, it's stereo.
So we can really see the surface.
We can do work under the microscope.
Sarah: And maybe you want to mention also
about the light because unlike the northern light
here, I don't know if you can see, but
there are these super, super angled lights.
Lee Ann: Right. It's a very focused light.
We can also take one of them off and make
raking light.
And that also enhances the topography of the
surface and gives us more information.
And with Brandt, you can see so much on the
surface.
I mean, for a very flat gelatin, silver glossy
print.
I mean, he really worked the surface.
It's amazing to see.
Sarah: And in some ways it's what makes each
one of his prints unique because he was so,
so engaged with the surface of the print that,
you know, people think of photography
as a medium of multiples and of something where
the machine really takes a prominent role.
And while that's somewhat true, it's also
amazing when you encounter examples of the
handwork that goes into it as well.
Lee Ann: Exactly.
No, I concur completely and I really feel
like photography is a medium of multiples,
but every one had to be made by hand.
And so there's going to be, you know, small differences
or large, you know, differences depending
on what the photographer has done.
Well...
Sarah: So that was... so we're getting the
signal, it's time for us to go answer some
real questions.
Your questions, not just things that make
us curious.
So, give us a quick second.
We're going to go to photography and then
we'll head into the main part of the
Live Q&A from there.
Lee Ann: All right.
Hey, Sarah, do you want to turn off that light?
Sarah: Oh, I don't know how.
Lee Ann: Oh, okay.
I'll do it for you.
Sarah: I don't touch her equipment.
Sarah: Alright, see you in a minute.
Lee Ann: Okay, let's go.
Sarah: Hi, everyone.
Lee Ann: Hello.
Sarah: Here we are in the photography study
center.
You may remember the spot.
Lee Ann: Yes.
And I hope that you all enjoyed your short
tour of conservation, but I think now it's
time to get to some of your questions.
Sarah: So we have a couple of questions that
you submitted in advance.
We picked our favorites and we're going to
start with those, although our producer will
hand us questions that any of you submit now,
so keep them coming and we're going to try
to get to as many as we possibly can.
Lee Ann: All right, well, enough for the introductions.
Let's look at our first question.
So, Tree Island Horror asks, what's the most
difficult photograph you've ever had to save
and why?
That's a good question.
I think from my perspective, working in a
museum that has a lot of contemporary art,
we deal with really large photographs.
And I think the most challenging work that
I've ever had to address was the deconstruction
and reconstruction of a Jeff Wall mammoth-scale lightbox, where we had to completely
take the entire thing apart and then put it
back together in time for the exhibition.
I didn't do this alone.
This was a team effort, we had two conservators,
we had artists assistants and art handlers,
but it was really tricky and very challenging.
Sarah: I don't take photographs so I don't
have a favorite one that I've ever treated,
but I did pick one that I love that Lee Ann
treated and that I thought she did such a
marvelous job.
It would be fun to share.
This is a work by Edward Weston of Tina Modotti
and we brought a before just to show you how
dramatic and marvelous what she did.
This picture had what looked like almost white
worms crawling across Tina Modotti's neck.
And it was essentially unexhibitable because
it looked like she had such a horrible disease,
which she didn't have.
Lee Ann: So we have...
Sarah: The reveal.
Lee Ann: The before treatment photograph because
we document everything we do
before and after treatment.
So this... that was a xerox, this is the actual
photograph.
And, I don't know, Sarah, actually do you
want to see if you can hold it up?
Sarah: Maybe I'll see if I can hold it.
Lee Ann: If you notice those white marks,
I went in and I isolated the actual photograph
with a material that would protect the platinum
print, which is below.
And then I went in and I did retouch and it
was pretty successful.
I don't think that you can even see.
Sarah: To put it mildly.
Yeah, Lee Ann's very modest about her treatments.
I really, I think they're amazing, but I, of
course, can barely color with a crayon.
So that's...
Lee Ann: That's probably not true.
But part of our training is we want all of
the work that we do to be reversible.
We want it to meet the aesthetic needs and
we also want to try to stabilize the works
whenever possible.
So the Jeff Wall's a good example of stabilization
and that was a good cosmetic treatment.
Sarah: We have some others too if you feel
like it.
And Jimmy Ho had asked a question similar
to that, but then he asked another one that
we thought was worth talking about in the
beginning.
What is the relationship between the curator
and the conservator?
He asked before organizing exhibitions and archives.
We think also that it might be interesting
just to talk in general how we... what we collaborate on.
Lee Ann: Yeah. No, totally.
Well, really, you know, it starts... a lot
of it starts with curatorial because there
may be exhibitions, there may be projects
loans.
So they will present the needs revolving around
the work and then we as conservators will
come in and say: "Okay, well, you know, there's
a group of photographs that needs to be treated
or these need to be cleaned or we want to
redo the framing for some kind of, you know,
stabilization issues."
So it's a lot of back and forth trying to
meet the needs.
Sarah: And also to protect the work.
So how long it's going to be on view for?
What are the... all those parameters.
Lee Ann: Right.
That's a whole thing.
Sarah: Big debate.
Lee Ann: Yeah, the mission statement of the museum is twofold.
On the one hand, to make the collection as
accessible as possible but also to preserve
for as long as possible.
So, we try to find that common ground.
Sarah: And often if we try to limit the amount
of time something's on view, so we'll say,
"Okay, we'll rotate that out after a certain
period."
Sometimes we'll lower the light levels.
But there was a question that just came in
that I want to address.
Lee Ann: Oh, okay. Great.
Sarah: Sneak it in the middle.
Deborah Hahn on YouTube asked, "Why don't
you put gloves on?"
Which is a super excellent question that we
should settle from the start.
Lee Ann: Excellent question.
Sarah: So, you might notice that when we were
holding this, we were never actually touching
the print or the original mount.
We have this tissue, and Lee Ann's position,
if I can...
Lee Ann: Yes.
And though that's fine to share.
Sarah: Is that we get a better grip if we're
moving things around, if our hands are clean
and we're not touching the original photograph
without gloves.
However...
Lee Ann: We do have gloves on our hand at all times
and some materials do require the gloves.
Also, I don't know if you noticed, but when
we were handling the print without the inner
leaving, we weren't touching the mount, we
were touching the support mount.
And the reason we have the support mount,
so there's a photo, secondary and tertiary 
area.
This is a mount that we at the museum provided
to give the work support so that we're never
torquing or handling the actual work too much.
Sarah: But thank you.
That's a really good question.
And we're happy, even though we had
some favorite questions
we are going to... we thought we would answer first,
we'd certainly are happy to...
Lee Ann: Take them when they come.
Sarah: Best practices.
Okay.
Western Gallery... Thanks for...
Asks: "What is the long term storage plan for
the photography department
and where will the collection be housed as it grows?"
And then Na Diagram also chimed down a similar
question: "Would love to see the various storage
techniques, boxes, sleeves, and how your collection
cares, differs for archives and museum objects."
So, the long term...
We'll leave that up.
The long term plan is that we try to store
here on 53rd Street in our cold storage as
much as possible of the collection.
It, as you can imagine is pretty full.
And as the collection grows, we occasionally
have to transfer things to offsite storage.
Most...
Lee Ann: Especially the large format material
which we collect very, very large scale things.
And they have to be stored with the paintings
on screens.
So we just don't have that capability here
at 53rd Street.
Sarah: And, you know, in terms of the long
term, we have room for growth here.
We have room for growth in our facility in
Queens where MoMa QNS used to be.
But we have film storage in Hamlin, Pennsylvania
and we have... and we occasionally outsource
unusual things to other places as well, cars
and things like that.
Lee Ann: Right, right.
It's true.
Sarah: But to see the various storage techniques.
Lee Ann: Yeah.
We have a few things here.
Sarah: I brought a few examples.
Do you want to maybe talk about this one first
and then I'll get a...
Lee Ann: Okay. Sure.
So let's see what we have here.
Okay.
So this is a mounted photograph by Henri Cartier-Bresson
and you can see that I opened the mount and
I took the inner leaving out.
This is a museum style window mat.
It's very thick and it has a nice bevel that
protects the photograph itself from anything
coming on top of it when it's in a frame and
there's a nice sheet of glazing.
Inside what we see is a variety of photo corners
which hold the print secure within the window mat.
And again, like I said earlier, this is really
important because it supports the entire photograph
during handling and, because photographs are
laminate layers, any kind of cramping or bending
is going to break that laminate layer and
that's where you start to get damages and
the work starts to, you know, deteriorate in
ways that we would like to control.
Sarah: Just one more thing to note about this
though is, the corners hold the mount tightly.
The corners hold the mount.
And in this, this is something that we recently
had out of its mount.
And so you'll see the top two corners are
actually not slid in.
So just usually, they'll have four corners.
So it won't matter what the orientation is.
Lee Ann: Exactly.
And I think we're probably due to redo the
photo corners, which on this piece and we
do on a regular basis.
Sarah: Sorry, one more thing to pause about
this photography because I have to brag a
little bit more about Lee Ann.
She was too modest.
She wasn't even going to say it, but I don't
know if you can notice.
I don't know how close we can zoom in.
But that bottom right corner, bottom left
corner...
Lee Ann: Bottom left and top.
So, this work was included in a major retrospective
of Henri Cartier-Bresson and had come into
the museum missing these corners.
We don't know why.
Sarah: Triangles, just like straight off.
Lee Ann: Just like uneven triangle, so we
never could figure it out.
But we went ahead and I made an insert here,
which can easily be removed.
And it would not disrupt the mount here.
It does not touch the photograph.
But for now it can be displayed in a more
holistic manner.
Sarah: Right. It allows you to look at the photograph as
a rectangle without a real consciousness of
those two missing corners, which would be
distracting and not really let you look and
fall into the work, which is the goal.
Lee Ann: Yeah, no, those are lots of issues
that we deal with for every single photograph.
What's best for the work, how do we want it
to look?
Do we not want to do anything?
Sarah: So we keep a lot of photographs matted
like this in boxes, but we also... that's not
always practical.
It's not always possible.
So in the boxes sometimes also, actually we'll
talk about this one in a minute.
We have prints that will just keep...
Oops, sorry.
Lee Ann: Yeah, actually, these boxes are nicely designed.
You can open them up and then you have another
surface that you can slide the works onto.
So these are a wonderful set of RC gelatin,
silver photographs.
Sarah: Donna-Lee Phillips is the artist.
Sorry.
Lee Ann: The conceptual work.
And we just have them in mylar sleeves, again
with that rigid support and that helps us
handle safely.
Do we want to take one of these out or...?
Sarah: Sure.
Let's take one out.
The other thing that we debate sometimes should
the sleeves one... have one side sealed,
two sides sealed, three sides sealed.
We usually do three because it's the most
protective.
But I've heard Lee Ann make an argument sometimes
for larger work...
Lee Ann: Sometimes if you want to just lift
the mylar off the surface.
It's really about the small details to help,
you know, protect the work for whatever physical
issue it has.
So this one, there we go.
Sarah: I'll hold the plastic.
Lee Ann: I want to actually lift that off
the surface.
Yeah, there we go.
So, right, removing the print from the sleeve,
trying not to touch the surface.
And then, so here now I'm definitely going
to wear my gloves because I'm handling the
actual photograph.
Sarah: And this is a photograph in which the
artist actually typed a caption onto the original print.
So you can almost make out the remnants of
the type on the back.
But it's a pretty amazing thing, but this
is a fairly simple thing.
And there... this isn't appropriate for most
display, but it's a nice storage option.
Lee Ann: I think I can get that back in.
So, there we go.
Sarah: Okay.
But actually I'm going to let you do that.
And then we go to the next question.
Okay.
Next question.
Elie Tals writes: "How is digital
photography preserved?"
Lee Ann: That is an excellent question.
We all live with digital images.
They are everywhere and ever present.
And this institution has a very dynamic and
strong department in
electronic media and performance.
We also are really lucky we have an entire
department of in-conservation devoted to the
preservation of digital files and digital
media.
And so, I will defer anybody who's interested
in that topic to those colleagues
and we can share some links.
You know, to point you in the right direction.
But we do have protocols and they're good.
Sarah: Damian Van Camp asks: "Some photographs
can be interpreted not only as two dimensional images
but as sculptural objects as well.
Is this something you take into consideration
when organizing the display of such photographs?
Do you believe there's a way to provide that
experience to a viewer without
potentially compromising the safety of the artifacts?
Have you ever considered an exhibit that explores
the physicality of a photograph?"
This is a great question and ties into what
we were just looking at in the lab
with the Otto Steinert mounted print
and really giving a sense of that physicality.
And I would argue even in a more subtle way
with the Bill Brandt photograph of Henry Moore
which has its own dimentionality by the creases
and the additions on it.
But I thought to answer the last part of it
about whether we ever had an exhibition that
talked about that physicality where that was
a central concern.
I would say that the Thomas Walter Collection
Exhibition is one where we made a conscious
effort to display the photographs in a way
that highlighted their physical presence.
Lee Ann: Exactly.
And that exhibition was part of a four-year
research initiative to look at a group of
242 photographs where we really delved into
the physical aspects of the photograph and
brought together curators and conservators,
conservation scientists and art historians
to look at the material.
And again, it was all about the physical aspect.
Did you wanna take this out or just to show...This
is a great one.
Sarah: This is a great one.
You know, I'm a little obsessed with Dorothea
Lange at the moment, I confess.
Lee Ann: I'll hold here while you talk.
Sarah: Okay.
In part because just this week, we finished
this book, Lange "Migrant Mother."
And while we were doing this, in part what
we were researching was that very question
of the physicality of the print.
What print is this book about if it's one
on one, and what other prints do we have
in the museum collection?
So, this is one that was made for the New
York Times.
And I don't know if you can see here.
Lee Ann: Here, I'll point out some of the
areas.
I don't know if you're... if the camera can
actually see this, but you'll see there are
some glossy areas and there are some really
some very matte.
Actually, you know what?
I have one of my...I don't know if you can
see better this way where there are glossy
and matte areas.
The matte areas have been highly retouched,
and that's for reproduction and the publication.
Sarah: Hold on.
I don't know.
I mean, is that clear?
I hope that's clear to all of you?
It's amazing the degree to which, just like
Bill Brandt did on his Henry Moore, but the
degree to which people at the New York Times
just went right in there to make this photograph
reproduced better in ink.
And I think when you look at this compared...
Lee Ann: Versus the...
Sarah: Let's take out this.
With this, it's pretty dramatic how the...
Lee Ann: It's completely different.
I mean, it really changed.
The background is dark and here it's light.
Sarah: And again, to speak to the materiality,
I'm going to lift...
This is called a sink mount.
And the sink mount is something that allows
you... it makes a really deep window.
So that again, the physicality, the dimensionality
of the print can be expressed.
Historically, we would kind of suppress that.
I would say we would mat it as if it weren't
this thick, well, not historically.
I would say in recent decades we would have
done that.
Historically, this would have just been like
this on the wall with no mat at all.
But more and more, I think the Walter Project
and all those were interested in how they are physically.
Lee Ann: Exactly.
How... what is the history of the print, especially
of the exhibition of the print.
So this sink mat, which goes over, helps protect
the edges of this print so that when you put
the over mat over, everything is completely
even and you don't have those exposed edges.
Sarah: All right. You want to take another question?
Lee Ann: Sure.
Sarah: I'll put some things away.
Lee Ann: Okay.
Well, let's see.
Adam Addendum Redundant asks: "Can you restore
photographs like one would do with paintings
or is it mostly about conserving and archiving?"
In this institution, we definitely do conservation
interventions if you will, similar to what
you, what we showed at the beginning with
the Tina Modotti portrait and I did the cosmetic
reintegration of those bad stains that were
on the neck.
We do focus on more just re-housing issues.
It really depends on the collection.
We'll work with the library and the archives
and we'll help them organize and house their material.
But yeah, sometimes we spend a lot of time
working just on one the way you would in paintings
conservation where you would remove a varnish
or you might do some in-painting.
The procedures are different, but the approach
can be similar.
Sarah: This was another one that we're slipping
in because Julie Weber asked on YouTube live,
something that we think would be worthwhile
clarifying.
She asked, "In the intro, it was mentioned
that some photographs are too precious to
exhibit," and I want to drill into what the
precious is there.
But anyway, "How do you reconcile having such
photos in the collection and can they be shared
with the public in other ways?"
So...
Lee Ann: Great question.
Sarah: Fantastic question.
And I'm sorry we were a little bit rushed
in the lab because we wanted to get up here
and start with the Q&A, but I'm glad we're
bringing this back up.
I think by too precious, partly what you mean
is too fugitive, meaning that by exposing
it to light you can be damaging it and that
can be part of what's not treating a photograph
as responsibly as we intend to do.
We, for instance, for that auto chrome, because
it is... that is actually a recent acquisition.
It was a gift of Richard and Barbara Benson,
but we did exhibit when that work was first
brought to the museum, we exhibited a facsimile
of it, clearly marking that it was a facsimile,
which means essentially a copy that to the
naked eye seems the same.
And we put that facsimile on view.
So it's important for history and for scholars
to be able to have the real thing in the collection.
But it's equally important that for something
that very, very fragile, precious fugitive print
if we put that on view in a regular
exhibition, it would deteriorate to the point
where it would be... it wouldn't look like
what it is.
And so our responsibility is to find the right
balance.
Lee Ann: Right. Exactly.
Sarah: And so when you asked how they can
be shared with the public, one is by making
a facsimile and clearly labeling it as such.
Another is through that book is reproduced
in a... that photograph is reproduced
in a book that Richard Benson wrote called
"The Printed Picture."
So, putting our collection online is
another way.
So we look for lots of ways to activate the
collection.
Lee Ann: And also, your department is very
active in bringing school groups at all different
levels through to give tours, small tours,
individual ones, and also encouraging scholarships.
So, people can come and make an appointment
and actually see the photograph in a very
limited and controlled environment.
So, there's the more public views and then
there's sort of a more one on one.
Sarah: So anyway, we really... We
recently acquired a very precious
19th century photograph by Hippolyte Bayard, that will
be on view this fall.
And we're really exploring different ways
of allowing... of how do we limit the light
but still share it and still preserve it.
And finding the right balance between all
those things is important.
But certainly, sharing it with the public
is a big part of that.
All right.
Oh, speaking which.
Cora Johnston asked, "What is the oldest photograph
in your collection?"
And Felix Oncken wrote basically the same
thing.
"What is the oldest photograph from MoMA's
collection?"
Lee Ann: Well, there are Henry Fox Talbot
prints in the collection and I think the Lace
Photogram 1842, that's probably it.
Sarah: So early 1840s, we're not interested
in collecting, you know... The Henry Ransom
Humanities Research Center in Austin, they
have Niépce's original view.
You know, one of the earliest photographic
processes.
For us, it's about what are the earliest photographs
that speak to the ideas of modern art
that are then carried through in the collection.
So, having an older photograph that we perhaps
couldn't exhibit at all or something that's
important just because it was the first is
less important to us than having a work like
Talbot's The Open Door, which is an incredibly
important work that speaks to practices of
allegory that come forward later.
Lee Ann: Exactly.
Come up again and again and again.
Ronald Lusk asks: "What advice do you have
for a current fine art photographers for making
preservation easier for future curators and
conservators?"
Well, I can say...
Sarah: Thank you for asking.
Lee Ann: Well, I can say right off the bat
that, you definitely want to document everything you do.
You want to know... you want to make a note
of what the papers were, how it was processed.
You want to give some indication of, you know,
the size of your collection, I guess, or how
it might be important in the body of work.
But it's really the documentation of the physical
part that's going to help us down the line
understand the work.
And so, so many photographs had been created
that are amazing, but we don't understand
the physical aspect.
And so, preservation can be a little bit more
challenging in those cases.
Sarah: And for some works that incorporate
an aspect of deterioration into that work.
When is that deterioration welcome?
When is it too much?
So, I think those are some of the parameters
that Lee Ann was asking about.
But there are... we love having dialog with
artists when they're saying: "I'm thinking
of mounting my print.
This is a look that I aspire to have for my
work.
What kinds of materials would you recommend
that we use to mount my print to?"
Lee Ann: Yeah.
And in those situations...
Sarah: Sorry.
We don't want to dictate to an artist how
their work should look, but if they ask us
a question, we're certainly happy.
Lee Ann: And we've done a lot of research,
and we have a lot of experience on, you know,
the history of photography and different,
you know, mounting systems, pros and cons.
And we want to be able to share that information.
At the end of the day, the artist will have
to make a decision based on
what they to convey.
But, yeah, there are many different ways that
works can be mounted and framed and presented
and those materials are changing all the time.
New things come on the market.
So, we try to...
Sarah: Protection is generally welcome.
Information and protection.
Lee Ann: Definitely.
Corporal Cheddar, Pasquale V, Anna Maria Med and Adelaide, they ask,
"What is the process for getting into conservation?
What advice would you have for young artists
looking into joining the field?"
Okay.
So, conservation really... just a little preamble.
Conservation brings in three different disciplines.
It brings in studio art, art history and science.
So, now our field has graduate programs that
help students master the areas of those three
separate disciplines to become a conservator.
The ways in which somebody might investigate
conservation, there are actually some websites
which maybe I'll mention in a moment, but...
Sarah: Maybe we can ask the producer to put
them up on the...
Lee Ann: Yeah.
Because, there is one group, the Emerging
Conservators Group, which is part of the
American Institute for Conservation.
And they have put together an incredible 10
tips for people who are interested in conservation.
And so if you Google that or you go onto the
AIC website, you can go and read a little
bit more about some of those tips of getting
into conservation.
But I'll mention just a few, which I think
are really good.
Number one, you should find a conservator
and go visit them in their lab.
There's nothing like being there as you saw
earlier today, you know, what is the environment like
what kinds of projects are they working
on?
Join the professional organizations.
And I think that we gave a list of the producers.
I'll rattle a few off.
There's the American Institute for Conservation,
there's the International Institute for Conservation,
ICOMCC, which is the International Council
of Museums Conservation Committee.
Those professional organizations have all
kinds of different activities and online resources
that you can investigate, and becoming a member
is a way of first demonstrating your interest,
but also finding out about what does this
field really about.
So, find a conservator, visit a lab, join
a professional organization, take advantage
of the online resources, not just for the
organizations, but the graduate programs in
North America have very detailed information
about requirements to get into conservation.
And that's another way that you can find out
and maybe meet some people.
There are other things that you should explore,
but that might kick off some of the exploration
that I'm sure you'll want to take on.
Sarah: Yes.
So, I don't know how to say this, so I'm going
to spell it.
This is from "hvssvn" and asked: "Do you
use scanners or digital cameras to capture
these physical photos to archive digitally
and why?"
The answer is, well, this is sort of simple.
Yes, we use both, well, rarely scanners...
Lee Ann: Not the scanner.
Sarah: Not a scanner so much, but a digital
camera is used at all stages of the... of our
process, from even before acquisition, identifying
it as something that we are thinking about,
talking about it with our peers.
Then when we acquire it, we make a high resolution
scan to put on the website, when we try for
that scan to be color corrected and balanced
and everything that we could use it in a publication.
And then the other thing for conservation.
Lee Ann: Right. So, in conservation, we document all
the work that we do, all the conservation 
treatments that we carry out on work.
We document before, during and after the conservation
treatment.
And we use very high resolution digital imaging
for that.
And we have our archiving protocols.
So, there's a lot of imaging that happens. For sure.
Sarah: Images of images.
So this is a question from Dmace3...
Dmace13, sorry.
And Chez Foxy Jam, sounds familiar.
"What advice would you give to smaller collections
who want to provide better conservation techniques
to photo archives that are restricted by budgets
and/or lack of resources?"
To which was added by Chez Foxy Jam.
"What basic strategies would you recommend
to organizations or brands who are developing
their own research collections in-house but
who do not have dedicated archivists and or
conservationists on staff?"
And I have to say this could be my favorite
question of the day because the truth is,
all of us can do things to protect the photographs
in our lives and the photographs
for which we're responsible.
And half of what, Lee Ann, well, maybe not
half, but a significant chunk of what Lee Ann
has taught me is that basic conservation
principles of keeping light levels low, handling
things carefully, keeping environment's stable,
those things are really good for all collections,
from MoMA's collection to mine at home.
And I think that, I mean, I'd love from you
to elaborate.
Lee Ann: Yeah, for sure.
Sarah: But I think the idea of information
we can share is great.
Lee Ann: Yeah.
And we want to share and some of those resources
that I mentioned just a moment ago, we'll
also give some of this information and point
you in the right direction.
But so much of conservation and preservation
is common sense, in the sense that as Sarah
was saying, you want to organize your collection,
make sure you know what you have in your collection.
You want to house it properly.
It doesn't have to be housed in beautiful
eight ply mounts, but it could be housed...
Sarah: Yeah, I mean, I remember what Lee Ann
said, we could have prints that were just
on a board, an archival board, not an acidic
board, just in a polyethylene, which is for
normal people, plastic...
Lee Ann: But it's a nonreactive.
Sarah: Fine.
Lee Ann: Yeah, no, there are definitely differences
in...
Sarah: But a polyethylene bag and a board.
Those are really inexpensive materials and
they provide an extraordinary amount of protection
and stability.
Lee Ann: Exactly.
Yes.
Sarah: And, sorry, just to add onto this question,
Nik Yazikov from YouTube live, just related
to this road: "What are the best ways to avoid
large prints deteriorating or getting damaged
while on display if you cannot afford expensive
framing or mounting?"
Lee Ann: It's a really good question.
It's a little tricky because, again, this
is a common sense situation.
If you have a large print and you are displaying
it on the wall, and there's nobody around,
meaning, you know, it's in your private residence,
probably you're not going to have the same
problems that you would have in a major institution
because of the traffic.
And again, that's a common sense.
Sarah: So keep children, pets away from it,
don't talk in front of works of art.
You know, the reason we don't have a lot of
photographs sitting in front of us right now
is that Lee Ann taught me when I'm speaking
about a photograph, I should always have my
hand or something in front of my mouth, so
that we... You spit on them and you damage them.
Lee Ann: It's part of the way we talk.
And so you definitely have to be mindful.
But yes, the larger the print, the more problems
are going to be and the bigger the problems
they can be.
The framing and mounting... look around, shop
around and see if you can find a mounter or
a framer who is willing to work with you to
achieve your goal.
And it's just a matter of doing research and
trying to get...
Sarah: But if you can't frame or mount it,
try to put it in a place where the conditions
are reasonably stable, where there's no direct
sunlight and where there aren't a lot of people
elbowing around.
So like a hallway is great in some ways because
it's dark, but it's narrow so people are
more likely to brush against it.
So using that common sense, I would say goes
a long way.
Lee Ann: Yeah, definitely.
Framing does protect the work.
So, there's no way around that part.
Sarah: We do like framing.
Oh, all right.
This is one for you.
Lee Ann: So Andrea Elkind, Tairo and
Pamela Knohr ask: "What are best practices
for conserving photos in a humid city?"
All right.
So, another really good question, light, temperature,
and humidity.
Those are the three culprits that photographs
are susceptible to.
And humidity is one of the worst.
So, while we are concerned about temperature
and we want to keep the temperature in a reasonable
range and we want to keep the light levels
at a reasonable level, humidity is really
going to do it in for your photographs because,
actually, there's two reasons.
You have a lot of organic materials in photographs
of gelatin silver prints.
You've got, you know, albumen prints and those
are made up of largely organic materials,
so they're susceptible to mold.
Also, insect damage can be a problem too.
But on the other hand, you also have the image
making material which can also be susceptible
to high levels of humidity.
So all of our color photographs are made from
dyes similar to the dyes in our clothing.
And as you know, the dyes will fade in light,
they can also fade in, you know
continual washings.
Sarah: But is there's anything people can
do...
Lee Ann: Well, I wanted to go...
Yeah, hang on, hang on.
Sarah: Sorry.
Lee Ann: So the best practices would be knowing
that, keep your collection in boxes with buffering
material like matte boards and blotter materials
or high quality papers that will help to absorb
some of that excess moisture.
Try to keep away from windows.
And also the other thing, if you keep your
collection in an environment that's somewhat
stable, meaning it doesn't fluctuate, you
know, from really hot temperatures and humidity
down to very low, keep it where you like to
be.
Where we are comfortable is where the photographs
are going to be comfortable.
Sarah: So an attic for instance...
Lee Ann: Is not a good place or the basement
is not a good place, but your closet, which
is dark, that's probably a good place.
Sarah: All right.
Lee Ann: Should I, let's see if this is for
you or for me.
Ianthe Papadima says: "Where
does MoMA's vernacular photography come from?
Family albums, flea markets, etc.
And do you try to identify old photographs?
And if so, how?"
And I think that that's for her.
Sarah: Okay.
So, when she asks about vernacular photography,
what she means for those of you who don't
know that word is, photographs that weren't
originally intended to be works of art and
that can... the umbrella that that encompasses
can include anything from a photograph that
was made for a newspaper like that print of
''Migrant Mother" that we were looking at
to a snapshot that you might find in a family
album.
We do have examples of that in the collection.
They're really some of my favorite works,
but they...
We acquire them from a whole range of places.
Typically we're not scouting through flea
markets, eBay, things like that.
We are very fortunate that we have some collect–
There are really, really fantastic collectors
out there of vernacular material.
Some of them have a business of it, some of
them are just really, really good passionate
collectors and very generous ones who share
with us when they get something that they
think is really special, that ought to be
in the museum's collection.
So, we get it from a wide variety of places.
And do we try to identify unknown works?
Always.
You know, the reason I've, in general, moved
away from the idea of anonymous photograph
to photographer unknown is that the...
Lee Ann: It's in the cataloging.
Sarah: In the cataloging of it.
To say anonymous implies that the photographer
doesn't want to be known.
Whereas to say, photographer unknown really
suggests closely the reality, which is
that we just don't know.
But that doesn't mean we don't want to try.
And we have all kinds of ways of trying material
evidence that we develop and look at
with conservation to, the internet can be very
helpful with that.
Really scrutinizing the picture on the front
and the back looking for marks or any clues.
Lee Ann: And this goes back to the question
that we had earlier about how, you know, what
should fine art photographers be doing, you
know, for their work... for the future curators
and conservators.
And labeling and identification, it cannot
be underestimated.
Sarah: Yeah.
That would be a gift, we don't count on it,
but it would be a gift.
Lee Ann: Okay.
Sarah: Okay.
Barking.
This is a question from barkinghere.
"What's considered the most valuable photograph
or photographs in MoMA's collection and why?"
And I'm sure our general council is like,
don't talk about value.
But I think, you know, how much you pay for
a photograph is one expression of
a photograph's value.
But partly what I love about what we do here
and the kinds of things we take care of is
that sometimes the value can be a teaching
value.
Sometimes the value can be simply the joy
that it brings to stand in front of it.
And those kinds of things are a lot harder
to put a number on.
Lee Ann: Even something, yeah.
For example, some of the vernacular photographs
you were just mentioning, some of those are
amazing and they're wonderful and you would
never want to... Um thank you.
My microphone.
Sarah: Your microphone.
Lee Ann: Yeah.
And so the monetary value is not the issue
there.
It's not the...
Sarah: But I would say Grosso Modo, works
where you've read that there have been scandals
about fakes.
That might be one way.
Nobody bothers to make a fake of something
that isn't really...
Doesn't have a high market value.
Lee Ann: That's true.
Sarah: And unique works, works that when,
you know, anything where we send it out on loan
where we know that it would be impossible
to get another replacement print.
We put a number on it, but the truth is the
number should be priceless because there's no...
We have so many treasures in the collection
where they simply couldn't be replaced.
And so, that's where, when Lee Ann says keep
those light levels low, we say, okay.
Lee Ann: Yeah.
Okay.
All right.
So, this could be for both of us.
apokalipsischilango asks: "Is there a specific
photograph that you're really fond of?
How, when, where was it taken?"
And seascrafty says: "Which is your favorite
photo?"
So, I mean, I will say, I mean, every day...
Sarah: I make a habit of not answering this
question.
Lee Ann: I know, well, there's 30,000 photographs
and they're all amazing.
They're all just, you know, magic because
photography is magic.
And this changes for me, you know, which
might be a favorite.
But I have to say I'm very fond of work that
Alexander Rodchenko made in 1935 or so
was called The Dive.
And he took it in a very young Soviet Russia
and it's a portrait of a man diving off of
a diving board and he's doing a cannon ball.
And it's just a really amazing print.
Sarah: But be honest.
What's part of what you like about that picture?
Because I happen to know.
Lee Ann: Well, because I spent so much time
with it and the research.
When the paper...
So the paper was made...
Sarah: I'm gonna keep her honest.
Lee Ann: Yes, okay.
I love that work because it's such a symbol
of the time in which it was made and everything
about it, the materiality and the image speaks
to the hardships that were happening in
Soviet Russia at that time.
Sarah: So will you describe...
Sometimes you hold a piece of paper and it stays flat.
Lee Ann: Good rigidity.
Sarah: Rigidity.
Lee Ann: But this photograph, the paper is
very fluid and very, you know, it doesn't
have a lot of integral strength.
And that's just because of the paper making
at the time hadn't developed.
And so it's just such a... It's so evocative
of that moment and that's why I love that print.
What about you?
There's got to be one that speaks to you in
some way.
Sarah: Really, no.
But I'll say often it's related to what you're
working on.
Lee Ann: Yeah, that's true.
Sarah: So if would have asked me six months
ago I would've said Lange's Migrant Mother
because that was all I could think about.
You know, I would lie in bed at night and
dream about it.
Most recently I finished a project about an
album of photographs made by Frances Benjamin
Johnston, and it's called The Hampton Album.
And a handful of them are going to go on view
in two weeks in an exhibition called
Lincoln Kirstein's Modern, because Lincoln Kirstein
gave the album to MoMA in 1965.
And we are just printing now for the first
time, a near facsimile of the original album.
So everyone can hold it and enjoy it.
Lee Ann: They're exquisite.
Sarah: They are magnificent platinum prints
made between 1899 and 1900 and the album is
just unbelievable and I'm so honored.
Latoya Ruby Frazier wrote a text that's in
the book along with the text that I wrote
and it's just... it's a marvelous album.
And even though prints from that album are
in the Library of Congress and at Hampton
University and in the Harvard Art museums,
what we have is in fact the most complete
and it's just extraordinary.
Lee Ann: Yeah, it's a truly unique and amazing
object.
Sarah: And in terms of what we do together,
there's a note on the prints in
the back of the book.
And I had described the paper one way, I think
I had said a low quality paper.
And Lee Ann and the whole conservation team
came up here and they're like, "Let's talk
about the language that you use to describe
this paper."
And we settled on, well, I'd said inferior
quality.
And we settled on average quality because
it's not that it was inferior, but we have
wonderful discussions about what does it mean
to describe something as low quality, if that's
not really getting at the, you know, there's
a practicality to it and I think we can
find the right balance to that.
Lee Ann: To communicate, you know, to people
who don't have an opportunity
to spend so much time with this work.
What sentence, what description is going to
convey that information the best?
Sarah: That was fun.
Lee Ann: Yeah, it was good.
Sarah: Anyway, so I'll call that my favorite
for now.
Oh, this is for you.
Lee Ann: Kevinplam.
"What emerging archive technologies are you
excited for?"
Emerging archive technologies?
Well, it's not that this is difficult to answer,
but archiving technology.
So if we're talking about housing the collection,
we're always looking for better materials
that we can, you know, store with the mat
and the sleeves and the inner leaving papers.
We're always looking for better ways to store
things in terms of
the furniture and a better shelving system.
Sarah: Sorry, one little example of this is the... Do you
remember the year that we came up with the
openable photo corners? This was good.
Lee Ann: So this was a system that we designed here
in house with one of our extremely talented colleagues.
So these are photo corners that can be opened
and then closed.
So, and the photo corner stays intact and
can be reused.
And that's good for conservation of labor
and also of material.
So we don't have to redo every single time
like that Tina Modotti, we have to redo those
photo corners, but we will redo them to look
like this.
Sarah: The Cartier-Bresson.
Lee Ann: Yes, you're right.
Cartier-Bresson.
So...
Sarah: So that's sort of a new approach to
something.
Lee Ann: Exactly.
Sarah: It's kind of old fashioned.
But it was new system for us.
But I think...
Lee Ann: It's a refinement of a system.
And that's again, about this detail of, you
know, focusing on what ways can we better
serve the collection and care for the collection.
So from an archive point of view, that's how
I would answer that question.
From the question is though, here is archive
technologies.
Archive technologies, I mean, that to me
infers data management or imaging system.
So, I mean, we just look forward to easier
ones to use to make their job easier...
Sarah: We have a lot more colleagues around
the institution who say: "Hey, there's this
great new technology."
And they teach us how to use it.
Lee Ann: Yeah, it's not going to get used if it's not intuitive.
I don't want to say easy, but if it's not
an intuitive system, it's not going to be
as successful.
So that's what we look forward to.
Sarah: This is a good question.
So cietisoonguyen... Sorry for butchering the
name.
Asks: "What is the best way to mount
a printed photograph?"
And prewarfathead asks: "Dry mounting used
to be a thing.
Now, not so much.
Is it bad if you get a dry mounted photo?
Do you try to separate it from the mount?"
Maybe we'll start at the end in that.
Lee Ann: So the dry mounting tissues, although
I think that you still can get them and it
still is done professionally and then also
amateurs can do this on their own.
Sarah: I used to do it.
Lee Ann: Yeah, dry mount tissue is not the
worst thing.
We have noticed that that tissue can actually
act as a barrier, a buffer between the photograph
and the mount that it's adhered to.
So it's not necessarily a bad thing.
And oftentimes we see all kinds of dry mounted
photographs and we don't take them off unless
there's really some sign that it is a problem
with the work.
And we rarely see it because those systems
have been highly refined over the years by
the photo industry.
Sarah: But if you were to say today, what
would be the best way to mount a photograph?
Lee Ann: So, well, it depends on what you want to do.
The most important thing is that your photograph
has a rigid support so that you can handle
it and for, you know, framing it up.
After that you can do photo corners, you can
do hinges, you can do an overall mounting.
It really depends on the look that you are
after as a photographer.
Sarah: And I would say, well, I think here
our principle is as reversible as possible.
So we will... our preference would be photo
corners internally at a certain scale.
That's not really practical, but we really,
we don't have the technology to mount prints
above a certain scale.
And that's often something that we hope and
have a dialogue with living artists about
to say maybe let's talk about how we would
recommend you mount this through
an outside lab and then we'll acquire it once it's mounted.
Because there are risks also associated in
mounting processes and then once it's mounted
if there are no borders, the edges are fragile, so...
Lee Ann: That's why frames actually really
do help.
Even though there is a minimal aesthetic with
not showing something that's framed and we
understand that and always respect the artist's,
you know, intent for that.
Something to be aware of.
Sarah: memona_madi asks: "What would be the
best way to share that 30,000 items collection
beyond the museum's physical space?
How could you create new cultural opportunities
to your audience online?"
And whoa, if we don't spend an enormous amount
of time thinking about this.
I would say in some ways, this represents
what we expect the future of the museum to be.
Meaning, we want to encourage people to come
here to look at the original objects to experience them.
And we are developing a system for rotating
our gallery displays so that more and more
of the collection can be on view more regularly.
But the truth is there are many people for
whom it's not practical or possible for them
to come to the museum really, maybe not more
than once in their life.
And so the online course, Seeing Through Photographs,
that we did and the other online courses that
the museum offers, that's one way to provide
access into the collection.
The museum's website, we spend an enormous
amount of time and effort getting good images
and providing cataloging information and other
supplemental information so that even though
not everything is on the website yet, you
can use that as a tool to begin browsing through
the collection.
Lee Ann: Recently the museum has scanned and
posted online, all of the exhibition views.
Which I think is an amazing resource to see
how it works were shown.
Sarah: So you can go through, browse through
the exhibition history and then even through
that link to object.
So we're constantly working with our teams
inside and outside the museum.
And if you have ideas, let us know.
We can't say that we think we've figured it
all out, but we do spend a lot of time thinking
about that and the Seeing Through Photographs
learners are really all over the world.
So, I can't believe it.
Lee Ann: Oh, no.
Sarah: But it's time to wrap up.
I've just informed.
Lee Ann: Okay.
All right.
Sarah: So, this is exciting.
There are people who tuned into this live
stream from California,
Athens, Greece,
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada.
Lee Ann: Sao Paolo.
Sarah: Sao Paulo yay! Florida.
Sorry, I'm working on a Brazilian project.
Florida,
Montreal.
Lee Ann: Paris.
Sarah: Paris. That's nice.
Italy, South Africa, Russia and Tennessee.
So, thank you all.
That is really an extraordinary audience.
Lee Ann: No, that is super exciting.
Sarah: We appreciate all of your thoughtful questions
and comments.
Lee Ann: So, if you've enjoyed this, please
check out...
There are other playlists on conservation
and photography, other ways to...
Check out some of the subjects that we've
been talking about.
Sarah: And that Seeing Through Photographs
course that I just mentioned a minute ago,
there's a link I think in the description
below and it's a free online course.
We really, anyway, we welcome people to learn
through that about photographs.
And if we... Oh, this is the most important.
If we didn't get to your question and you
left them on Instagram or YouTube, we will
do everything we can to try to pay attention
to those questions in the coming days.
Lee Ann: Yeah. It would be good to come back to some.
Sarah: But if you think... you're lying in
bed at night and you think, oh, I really wanted
to ask something, go ahead and add it and
we'll do our best to tend to it.
So, we appreciate everyone tuning in.
Lee Ann: Yes, thank you for tuning in and sending your questions.
And I think there's a subscribe button down
there.
So please hit the subscribe button and you'll,
you know, keep informed in all the different
programs that are coming through the YouTube
channel.
Sarah: So, bye for now. Thank you.
Lee Ann: Okay, bye bye.
