MATT: Help me in
welcoming to the stage
three-time Grammy-nominated
composer and saxophone
player, the band leader for
David Bowie's Blackstar band,
the one and only Donny McCaslin.
[APPLAUSE]
DONNY MCCASLIN: Thank you.
Thank you.
MATT: Thanks so
much for joining us.
DONNY MCCASLIN: Good
to see you, man.
MATT: Please, have a seat.
DONNY MCCASLIN: Thank you.
MATT: How you feeling today?
DONNY MCCASLIN: I'm good.
I'm good, thanks.
MATT: Beautiful trip
from Brooklyn out to--
DONNY MCCASLIN: Beautiful
trip from Brooklyn.
I've been home for a
couple of weeks now,
kind of decompressing
from a lot of touring.
So taking the kids to
school a lot, making dinner.
MATT: That doesn't sound
like decompressing to me.
That actually sounds like--
DONNY MCCASLIN: Well, it's true.
MATT: More recompression.
DONNY MCCASLIN: Yeah, it's
not total decompression.
But the love of being
with the children
is carrying me
through the angst that
happens when you try
to feed your children
and get them to school on time.
MATT: Who is more
unruly, the other members
of the band when
you're on the road,
or your kids when
you're at home?
DONNY MCCASLIN: Definitely
my kids when I'm at home.
Yeah, because when
I first come home,
they're really happy to see me.
And then there's the
second day, which
is payback for when
I've been gone.
And usually, that's
when my wife is gone,
and I'm kind of
running the show.
And there's just a lot of--
MATT: Welcome back.
Here's the keys.
Here's the kids.
DONNY MCCASLIN: Yeah.
And then the kids are
giving me a hard time,
because I've been gone.
But it's good.
MATT: So I want to go back.
Your music career started
at a very young age.
You were gigging on large stages
at the age of 12 with your dad.
DONNY MCCASLIN: Yeah.
Yeah.
I started when I was 12.
I was actually in a photography
class in junior high school.
And I was not really
engaging with the class.
And I found out that
it was the last day
that you could switch classes.
And my best friend
from elementary school
was in beginning orchestra.
So I just switched without
having played an instrument.
And my father is a piano
player and a vibraphone player.
And he had offered various
times over the years,
you want to take some lessons,
you want to take piano lessons,
clarinet?
I always said no.
I was more into sports,
basketball and whatnot.
But I got into the class.
My dad asked me what
I wanted to play.
And I said saxophone.
And it was an
impulsive decision.
But looking back
on it, I think it
was because the guy who
played in my father's band
when I was growing up was
a very charismatic player.
He was a hippie, like
a tie-dye t-shirt.
And he would play these wild
solos, sort of avant-garde.
And it was this really--
I don't know.
It was interesting.
Growing up in Santa Cruz, it
was an interesting cultural kind
of environment to grow up in.
And anyway, he was
very charismatic.
I remember one time looking
into the bell of his saxophone,
and it was like a
pool of condensation
with a cigarette butt floating
in the middle of it, which
is kind of gross now.
But as a 12-year-old, I was
like, man, that's really cool.
MATT: The most jazz thing ever.
DONNY MCCASLIN: Yeah,
anyway, so that was it.
It was saxophone right away.
And then it was something
that I just started doing.
I started practicing
a lot right away.
And things went from there.
MATT: Yeah.
Well, and it seemed to
progress quite quickly.
I mean, through
even high school,
you were already performing on
things like the Montreal Jazz
Festival.
DONNY MCCASLIN: Yeah, yeah.
I was fortunate.
Santa Cruz is a
relatively small town.
But there was a high
school in the next town
over where my father lived.
My parents were divorced.
So I was able to use
my father's address
to get access to this
high school that had
an incredible band director.
Name was Don Keller,
trumpet player
who had been best friends
with Bill Berry in the Navy,
who was also a trumpet player
who played in Duke Ellington's
band.
So Bill had given
Don a copy of all
these different
Ellington charts.
And this was at a time
when none of this stuff
was readily available for
high school or college bands.
So I was in this small town, but
playing Duke Ellington's music
four, five days a week,
which was amazing.
Then the Kuumbwa Jazz Center
had opened before that.
It opened up in 1976.
But the thing was,
bands would play
in San Francisco from
Tuesday through Sunday night.
And then they would come
to Santa Cruz on Monday
night and play the Kuumbwa Jazz
Center, the small nonprofit.
But because of that, I was
able to hear Elvin Jones.
That was the first concert I
went to when I was 12, followed
by McCoy Tyner two weeks later,
Art Blakey, Cedar Walton,
Phil Woods, and the
list goes on and on.
So I had access once a week
to these legends of the music.
And then Santa Cruz
was just very vibrant.
There was a lot of music.
I was in a salsa band.
There's a large Hispanic
population in the area.
So I was in a salsa band.
All the major reggae groups
played in Santa Cruz.
So I saw Jimmy Cliff, Peter
Tosh, Mighty Diamonds,
Black Uhuru, Burning Spear.
What else?
Paul Jackson, who played bass
in Herbie Hancock's group,
the Headhunters.
He was living in Santa
Cruz at that time.
And so I was like 15 or
16, and I was in his band.
And he was playing bass
and Casio and singing.
And it was really out.
And the band was called
Surely Out, actually.
But I was in that.
And so just being able
to play all the time.
And then having this sort of
green light with my father
to just come and
play with his band--
he played four or
five days a week.
And I could just go after
school or on the weekends.
I could stay there
all day and play.
So just the sum total
of all that experience,
it makes me think
of Malcolm Gladwell
and his book "Outliers."
I don't know if you
guys have read that.
But there's something in there
where he talks about the 10,000
hour thing.
And I think that
was the beginning
of that accumulation of
time playing music, having
to deal with different
musical situations,
being on the instrument
hour after hour after hour.
And in a way, my first--
after Santa Cruz,
I went to college
at Berkeley College of Music.
And maybe I was a junior, and
I got invited by Gary Burton.
MATT: Right.
I was going to mention that you
hit the road with Gary Burton
shortly after.
DONNY MCCASLIN: So this is
prior to joining his group.
I was in a student group that
he led that did a jazz cruise.
And I went to the rehearsals,
and I was nervous.
I was just like, Gary Burton.
And all the guys who
were playing in the band
were all great.
So I remember feeling
like I probably didn't
do so well in the rehearsals.
But then the first gig, I played
up to my ability at the time.
And I remember him
sort of reacting to it.
And sometime later,
he said that it
was like it was a whole
other situation with me when
I was on the bandstand.
And I realized, well, that was
because I was so comfortable
having had all this
experience with all
these different situations.
MATT: Yeah, the pedigree
and background that you've
listed out there,
it seems like it
would be pretty difficult to
hit you with a new person that's
going to put you on
edge or stun you at all,
having grown up through
that list of names.
It's pretty astounding.
DONNY MCCASLIN: Yeah,
so it was great.
It was great.
MATT: So you did four
years floating around
with Gary's band.
And then that ended up leading
you here to New York City.
And I don't know
exactly the order.
But at some point, you
either moved to New York City
and then replaced Michael
Brecker in Steps Ahead?
DONNY MCCASLIN: Yeah.
Basically, I had moved
to New York City.
And the first year or so, I was
still playing a bit with Gary.
That ended.
And I was just freelancing.
And I think I did a gig
with Eddie Gomez, who
was the original
bass player in Steps.
And some sequence of events led
to me getting a call from Mike
Mainieri to join Steps.
And this is like the early '90s.
And there had actually
been a couple sax players
after Michael before I joined.
But it was a big, big deal for
me to get that opportunity,
because I was such
a fan of that band
and such a fan of his playing.
And these solos he played
on some of these songs
that I was now going
to perform, they're
iconic solos I'd listened
to hundreds of times.
So the thing was, ultimately,
it was a really, really
great opportunity, because
I had to find my own way
to play these songs, my
own way of improvising
on these songs that didn't
sound like I was trying
to sort of copy what he did,
which nobody could do anyway.
But really, my generation
of saxophone players
were so influenced by him.
So it was a great opportunity,
because it forced me
to just, like, OK, how
am I going to do this?
How am I going to find--
what is my voice, and
how can I kind of develop
that in this
context where I'm so
influenced by the
original source material?
MATT: Right.
In that same time
period, though, it
wasn't like you were
only doing Steps work.
You have, again, this sort of--
I want to say incestuous.
That's a very good
term for what I
think the music world
in New York City
is and specifically with jazz.
And it sounds like it holds
true for the West Coast as well.
But this idea that everyone
kind of knows everybody,
and the swapping and
sharing of players
is and was very
prominent at the time.
You did a lot of
additional work--
folks like Gil Evans and
Dave Binney and Scott Colley
that you did a whole
collaboration with.
Do you find that
collaboration is just
a natural state for you?
How do you approach
that when you're
pairing up with these
other big players
to collaborate on something?
DONNY MCCASLIN: Well, I
remember, at one point,
being here and kind of doing
my thing of floating around
from club to club
during the night
and hearing different
things, and at one
point seeing David Liebman,
who's a very famous saxophone
player and educator and very
influential voice in the music.
And we were just talking.
And he said to me like,
so, you got your boys?
And I was like, what do
you mean, Mr. Liebman?
But I knew what he meant.
And did I have a group of people
I was meeting with regularly.
And I didn't at that point.
I can't remember when
it was-- probably just
when I moved to New York.
But it got me thinking about
how important that would be.
And in a way, I was just
kind of floating around.
And then through a
sequence of events,
I just sort of fell
into this group
of guys with David Binney,
Scott Colley, Jeff Hirshfield
on drums, some other guys.
And that was kind of
it, because I remember--
I think it was I started
playing sessions with Dave.
And we seemed to just be
musically compatible and then
socially compatible.
We're both from California,
both into sports,
just got along really well.
And that eventually played
on one of his records.
And that was kind of how
this group came together.
And then we were all young,
all just in New York,
so we had time.
So we would get together
two, three, four times a week
and workshop material,
like being in a band.
I guess it was a co-op
in this situation,
because we were all bringing
our own original music.
But it was really a
great opportunity,
because I started to hear
their individual voices.
And then I started to
think about writing
for that aesthetic or
that kind of group.
Because sometimes when
you're writing music,
it's daunting just to sit
at the keyboard and be like,
I'm going to write a song today.
What am I going to write?
And it's just this
huge playing field.
But when you can
narrow it down like,
OK, no, I'm writing
for this group.
And, more so than that, I
hear the way he plays bass.
I hear his saxophone sound.
And then it helps
me to focus a lot.
And I feel like sometimes
the most successful projects
or recordings that
I've facilitated
are ones where I felt that
strong sense of direction
and sound with the
personalities involved.
So that was a
really great thing.
And that group-- eventually,
we started calling it LanXang.
And we did a lot of
touring, and just, again,
hours and hours on
the bandstand, hours
hanging, listening to
music, talking about life,
talking about music--
all that stuff really.
I grew a lot through
that experience.
MATT: Kind of staying
on the topic of New York
City and the jazz
scene in New York City,
jazz has been a
little bit protected
through time, in the sense of
as the mainstream sort of shifts
its focus, disco
just was destroyed
by the change of the times.
But jazz has always been
this presence, especially
in cities like New York, where
it seems like there's just
a strong, tight-knit community.
You do a lot of touring,
like you mentioned.
But you also play a
lot here in the city.
Do you feel that that's true?
Is the jazz
community tight-knit?
Is that what's keeping it alive?
Is that what's keeping it
going in places like this?
DONNY MCCASLIN: Well, New York
City is really the epicenter,
I think, for jazz music.
It's not the only center, but it
is really the epicenter to me.
And part of what keeps
it going is there are so
many great musicians here.
Every instrument, every ilk--
there's just such a
high concentration here.
And people getting together,
working on projects,
and learning from
each other-- there's
just a lot of creative
energy around that.
And I think also with the
intensity of New York City
and the pace and just the
struggles for survival here--
that adds another element
of intensity to the music
that I think is important.
Certainly for me coming
from northern California,
growing up in that environment,
and now living here,
there's a big
difference culturally.
MATT: Yeah, I can imagine.
DONNY MCCASLIN: And I
remember feeling in California
like the intensity
that I bring to music
or that comes out
when I'm playing music
doesn't really fit
here as well as I
think it'll fit in New York.
And that's been true.
Nothing against California,
but you come here,
and I think there's
part of that struggle.
That all plays into it.
And then you have the
history here of how much
the music has developed
here over the years.
And then you have
the fact that there
are people who come to New
York City to hear jazz music.
There's a jazz tourism thing.
Clubs like the Blue Note,
the Village Vanguard,
they benefit from that.
So I guess all those things go
into making this the place it
is for jazz music.
And in terms of its
survival, I think
it's a big thing to answer.
Part of it is that the music is
so much about self-expression.
And I think that's something
that hopefully will never
go away.
Obviously, other realms
of music are as well.
But jazz, improvisation,
individuality,
telling your story in the
moment from song to song,
there's something very unique
about that in the music world.
And I think that will
never die, because I
think that's connected to
men and women's humanity's
need for self-expression.
And obviously, there's a lot
of different ways that happens.
But for musicians, I
think that's something
that will never go away.
What else would I say about it?
MATT: Have you ever
struggled with--
you mentioned the pace and
the intensity of the city.
Have you ever struggled
to separate from that?
Like, you find yourself writing
more uptempo, intense songs.
Is it hard to break
away and write a ballad
and calm it down for a minute?
DONNY MCCASLIN: I would
say that yes, sometimes.
In the end, I think I'm
most successful when I just
let the song be what
it's going to be.
And that's the problem
is that sometimes--
I've been living in
Brooklyn for 23 years.
And I remember at certain
points writing a song.
And I remember, it was a ballad.
And it was pretty.
And I was thinking,
oh, shouldn't this
be darker, shouldn't
there be more angst?
MATT: It's not convincing me.
DONNY MCCASLIN: There's
not enough wide intervals,
it's too--
and I was sort of
over-criticizing the work
instead of just letting it
be what it was going to be.
And eventually, I was like,
no, man, this is the song,
I just have to let it come
out this way and not judge it.
So for me, it's
actually just been
trying to let the music
be what it's going to be.
And everything else
takes care of itself.
MATT: So all this
time in New York,
and this leads to
a few years ago
where you were contacted, via
mutual friend, by David Bowie
and asked to play
on the song "Sue."
And this then kicked off
the whole "Blackstar" saga
that's transpired.
Can you speak to the experience
of meeting David Bowie?
DONNY MCCASLIN: Oh, absolutely.
So Maria Schneider is this
composer that I've worked with
for, I don't know, 14
years or something.
And she was getting together
with David to work on "Sue."
It was a collaboration,
like him singing
with her band, which I'm in.
So she was calling
me during that time.
And I was just giving
her feedback on stuff.
But at a certain
point, she said, yeah,
I think he should do
something with you.
And she played him
one of my records,
which was called
"Casting for Gravity,"
and suggested it to him.
And then I think suggested
it to him again and again.
She was just telling
me about this.
And I was like, wow, OK.
But you never know what
was going to happen
with those kind of things.
But eventually, they came to
hear us play at the 55 Bar.
And later, she told
me that he had said,
oh, I see that Donny's
playing here, let's go.
So they came down together.
I didn't meet him.
I knew that he was coming.
I actually didn't even
tell everybody in the band.
I told Mark Guiliana,
who plays drums.
But I didn't tell
the other guys.
And then I saw him,
and then that was it.
They were gone.
But a week later, I had
the first workshop session
with Maria and a few
people from her band, David
and Tony Visconti.
Dave is a longtime producer.
So that's where I met
him for the first time.
And so at that point,
I knew that he was
interested in doing something.
But again, I didn't
want to think about it.
I was just here to
work on this piece.
And then I remember I arrived
early to the rehearsal space.
And we were all there.
And we're setting up.
And then David walked in.
And it was remarkable, in a way,
now looking back on it, because
from that day and every
day after that that I ever
was with him, when he
walked in the room,
there was just this
real presence about him.
And I think part of it
was just that he was
really present in the moment.
And you just felt him
taking everything in.
It wasn't like he was sitting
there on his cell phone,
or he was disconnected.
He was completely connected
with the environment in front
of him, and completely engaged.
And that was something
that I really
came to admire and appreciate
about being with him was just
that presence.
Anyway, so he was there.
And eventually, he
came over to me.
And we started
small-talking a bit.
And as the day went
on, he eventually
asked me for my email
address and my phone number,
which I gave him.
And he emailed me.
He emailed me the
next day, I think
it was, and sent over
a song and basically
was saying he'd love to
record the song with my group
and maybe two or three songs.
And he said it--
and that was another thing about
him is his command of language
was really deep.
He just said it in
the funniest way.
It would be something
like, it would just
be a dream for me to record
two or three songs with you
and your group.
OK, that's-- I'm sitting
at home in Brooklyn.
One of my kids needs
a diaper change.
And I'm just looking at
that email like, wow.
MATT: Screen capture
that, print it out,
and frame it on the wall.
DONNY MCCASLIN: Exactly.
So it was really exciting.
And then there was
another workshop session
with "Sue" maybe a
couple weeks after that.
And then we recorded it
about a month after that.
And at this point, he had
sent me some more music.
And so that was kind of rolling.
And in terms of "Sue"--
just kind of an
interesting story,
I thought, was we spent five
or six hours recording this.
And it's a large ensemble.
Maria's conducting.
And David and Tony are
just in the control booth
the whole time.
Again, he's just
taking everything in.
And it's like a
nine-minute piece.
So finally, we get it together.
We splice it together.
And then I was going to
improvise over the whole piece.
But before doing
that, David was going
to put down what they
call a scratch vocal,
which is basically
just having the vocal
there so that the
improvisers know
where it is, and we
can play around it,
and so on and so forth.
So he comes out.
Six hours in the control
booth, he comes out.
They put him in a little room,
clears his voice, maybe 30
seconds of singing into the
microphone to get his level,
and they roll the tape.
Well, they press Record
now, because it's digital.
But anyway, they record.
And he sings "Sue"
start to finish.
And I think they might
have, oh, let me just--
I think he might have punched
one or two things really
briefly.
And then it was my turn.
And I went, played.
And then I played,
just thinking,
oh, they're probably going
to a little blip here,
a little note there.
But I went ahead and just
played over the whole thing
a few times.
Ryan Keberle did the
same on trombone.
We did a little bit together.
And that was it.
I went off to a gig.
So a couple months
later, I hear the song.
And I'm sure it's his vocal
from the scratch thing.
In fact, it was confirmed.
But I couldn't believe it,
that he was able to just--
and if you're familiar
with that song
or if you have a
chance to listen to it,
it's kind of a tour
de force vocally.
He's really kind
of going all out.
And so I thought that
was pretty remarkable.
And then the saxophone solo from
start to finish, I was like,
whoa.
I just didn't expect it.
MATT: Everything made it in.
DONNY MCCASLIN: Yeah,
everything made it in.
But that was something
that when it came time
to start working-- well,
when the "Blackstar" started,
that dynamic repeated itself,
where he was singing with us,
and then we'd get the
track, we'd get the take,
and maybe we'd fix a bass and
drum thing if it needed to.
And then he would go out,
maybe fix a vocal thing
or add some harmonies.
But it all happened so quickly.
And then we also really
had a green light
to just go for whatever
we were hearing,
add whatever we were hearing.
MATT: I was curious to
talk about that, too--
DONNY MCCASLIN:
Oh, yeah, go ahead.
MATT: --in the creative process,
because I have had the pleasure
to speak with a few other people
who worked with David Bowie.
And I've heard two
distinct things that sort
of channel themselves, one
being that when he has an idea,
it's very clear to him
exactly what he's looking for.
But then what
almost seems counter
to that is that he's
very good at giving
long leash to the people
that he works with.
So I was curious, when you were
in the studio working with him,
how much play did you have
versus how clear his ideas were
on what he was trying to create?
DONNY MCCASLIN: Well, I'd
say that the clarity was
in the demos that he sent me.
And I wasn't sure,
as I had them--
when I had them and I
was listening to them,
I wasn't sure like, well,
what's going to happen,
are we opening
this up for solos,
are we going to modulate, are we
going to experiment with form?
I just didn't really know.
So I just tried to
prepare for everything.
And one thing that
I did was I knew
that he was a fan of Stan
Kenton when he was growing up
and that he really
loved Gil Evans' music
and obviously was
a fan of Maria.
And I was also kind of starting
to hear some different things
with the horn lines, like
some counterpoint, some orch--
I basically start to
orchestrate the stuff
for all the different
instruments I play,
which is alto flute,
flute, clarinet, soprano,
tenor, but just sort of making
this kind of horn section
feeling.
Especially with the
alto flute, it really
gives it kind of a brassy sound.
It makes everything feel
bigger, like there's actually
a brass section in there.
So I started doing that,
because I was hearing it.
And I kind of wanted
to surprise him with it
and see what he thought.
And so when we start recording
the first tune, I was like--
and I added some
lines here and there.
I was like, hey, I got--
and he was totally
cool with it--
totally.
And so I felt like
there was just--
I could go for anything.
But that being said,
that clarity you
were talking about
in your question,
the songs provided
a lot of that.
So it wasn't like
anything major--
oh, we don't need to--
I guess what I'm trying
to say is essentially,
the song forms that
you hear on "Blackstar"
are what he sent in the demo.
And it's just us realizing that.
And there's more horn parts.
There's more keyboard
things happening.
But he said various times
through the process,
go for whatever you're hearing.
And Jason Lindner,
who played keyboards,
he had nine keyboards
in the studio.
So we were experimenting
with different sounds.
And he was adding--
I guess one thing is, I
remember at the end of one
day on the song
"Blackstar," David had left.
And we were just
kind of wrapping up.
And Jason was like, can
I just put one thing on?
Tony was like, yeah, of course.
And he goes out there and he
just doubled the bass drum
on the song ""Blackstar"."
Do-do, do-do, do, do-do--
something like that.
I can't remember
the exact rhythm.
And that was the first song--
I think that was the first song
that came out was "Blackstar."
Yeah, it was.
You hear that right away.
You hear the bass drum
and synth doubling that.
It's a big part,
for me, of the song.
And it was just this
end-of-the-day, oh,
I've got one more idea.
And then I think all of us--
Tim Lefebvre, Ben Monder, Mark--
as we listen to
that record, it's
like, wow, they left everything
in there that we played.
And I think that's one thing
that, for us, felt so wonderful
about hearing it was
we listened to it
and it was like, that's
us, that's what we do.
We hear the
interaction, all the--
it's all there.
And I guess that was
really affirming,
because that's what he wanted.
He wanted us to do our thing.
And they left it in there.
And it wasn't this,
OK, let's just
add like 20 synths
and a string section.
Tony and David did add things.
But it's so well
done, and it's so--
that's, I think, one of the
great things about the record,
listening back to it.
There's so many layers
of content in there.
And the way it works
together, the way it's mixed
together is really tremendous.
MATT: When you guys were making
"Blackstar" in the studio,
was "No Plan" a part of that?
Were these songs
that were recorded
at the same time, produced
at the same time that
just didn't make the record?
Or was this something that
came along after the fact
and say, hey, we have
some extra material,
maybe we should
realize this as well?
DONNY MCCASLIN:
No, it was all part
of the "Blackstar" sessions.
Yeah, in fact, "No
Plan" is the song--
MATT: So there was
very much a plan.
DONNY MCCASLIN: [? BA-DUM TSH ?]
MATT: Sorry.
DONNY MCCASLIN: Yeah, it was
it wasn't called "No Plan"
at the time, I don't think.
It was "Wistful," I think
was the working title.
But that was one song that we
recorded probably seven times,
which was by far the most takes
that we ever did of anything.
And it was because
we were experimenting
with different orchestration--
acoustic bass, electric
bass, so on and so forth.
So "No Plan" and those
other songs that came out--
I'm forgetting the titles--
but they were all part
of the "Blackstar" sessions.
MATT: OK.
Interesting.
So from that experience,
obviously what transpired,
transpired.
But you've moved
on with the band
that you mentioned to record
your most recent release, which
is "Beyond Now."
DONNY MCCASLIN: Yes.
MATT: Talk about how
that process rolled out
and the influence of
working with Bowie,
going through everything
that you went through,
and then maintaining those
relationships with the band
to work on your new record.
DONNY MCCASLIN: Yeah.
I think the last group period
that we worked on "Blackstar"
was in March.
And then I did it day of
woodwind overdubs in April.
So then a couple of months
later in the summer,
I had some time to write music.
And as you can
imagine, his music
had been just in
my head for months.
And so it was still there.
And I'd been listening a
lot to deadmau5 and Kendrick
Lamar and Aphex Twin as well.
And I think those were all
kind of there as I sat down.
And so in terms of the
original music on "Beyond Now,"
it was all written that summer.
And those were the
main influences.
The song "Beyond Now,"
the title track, I was--
I don't know-- somewhere in
the middle of writing the song.
And I was just thinking,
this is familiar.
And I realized that it was
similar to an intro of one
of David's tunes that
didn't make "Blackstar"
but came out later.
But it was just these three
elements-- a bass line,
then a inner voice that was
moving almost chromatically,
and then a melody that was
kind of floating on the top.
And there's other
moments like that
where I could feel the direct
influence of his music.
With some of his music,
there's a real urgency
at the beginning of the song.
And that was something that
I was thinking about when
I was writing this music.
But then also, these other
influences that I mentioned
were also really present.
So it was writing the original
music and then, with the guys,
developing it as we
would play and working
on the form and sort
of fine tuning it
over the fall when
we were touring.
And then the other thing
was, what other songs should
I add to this--
cover songs?
And David Binney, who's
produced most of my records,
we had a lot of back and
forth about different options.
And one song I
knew I wanted to do
was "Warsala," because we had
started playing it a couple
weeks after David passed,
because we were doing
this week at the
Village Vanguard
in New York City, which
was my first time there
as a band leader.
So it's a big deal, because
that's like the jazz mecca.
So it was a big deal to me.
And then him passing, it
was just really devastating.
And then I was just
thinking about, well,
how do I pay tribute to him?
I don't feel like I can play
anything from "Blackstar".
It's too much.
But eventually, we
settled on that tune.
Jason recommended it,
started playing it,
and it just was
really cathartic to be
able to play it every night
of every set on that gig
and just kind of
helped to channel
everything that had happened
into sort of a musical context.
And it's a great song.
So I was like, OK, we
definitely need to record this.
MATT: And there's a handful
of covers on the record--
some really diverse covers,
really diverse source material.
And in listening to it,
it's an interesting blend
of elements of electronic
music mixed with obviously
modern jazz and improvisation.
And I know that a couple
of your Grammy nominations
are for improvisational solos.
How did you approach merging
electronic music, which
is traditionally very structured
and repetitive, with what
is more your wheel house of
improvisation and freedom
and that sort of thing?
DONNY MCCASLIN: As
a saxophone player,
part of what's
interesting is, how can I
improvise within this sonic,
rhythmic context in a way that
feels authentic to me?
And it eliminates some
of the bebop vocabulary
that I've grown up with or
that was part of my thing.
And so it's been kind
of an opportunity
for me to find new language that
feels right for this context.
So part of it has been exploring
the instrument, finding
multiphonics and overtones
and these different ways
of creating sound that
feel like, oh, yeah,
that feels like
Squarepusher, or that's
like something that Aphex Twin
would do or Ventian Snares,
and now I'm in there
with these guys.
And Tim uses a lot of pedals,
the bass player, and Jason
with synths.
And there's a lot of pedals.
So those guys--
I guess part of the
aesthetic of the band
is improvising with sound
and not always notes.
So for me as an acoustic
instrument, it was like,
how can I explore
this territory?
So it's been fun to
be like, OK, I've
got to find a new
vocabulary to drop from.
So that's been
part of it for me.
Now I'm actually
using electronics.
As of about two months ago,
I started doing things.
But prior to that, it was
just finding different ways
of playing and
just thinking about
more of a percussive, rhythmic
language in my playing,
not always feeling like it's got
to be super melodic or whatever
and just trying to experiment
with all that stuff.
That's been part of it.
And then also, as
I mentioned before,
the idea of improvising
with sound and rhythm--
that the guys in
the rhythm section,
they do that a lot-- and
just finding my way in there
with them.
So it's been really fun.
And one way I describe
it, what we do--
people would say, how do
you describe your music?
Or in terms of David,
it would be like,
David Bowie does a jazz record.
Well, that's not true.
"Blackstar" is
not a jazz record.
And what do I do?
I would say right
now, we're exploring
the intersection of electronic
and music and improvisation.
And to me, that's, to
me, more of what it is.
It's kind of a hybrid group
where the drums are still
acoustic.
And until two months
ago, I was acoustic.
Now I'm electrified.
But it's really fun,
because it feels like it's
something really different.
And all of us in the
group grew up not just
being jazz musicians.
Talking about my
upbringing and then I've
continued to just
be involved in a lot
of different kinds of music.
And so all of that comes
into play in this situation.
And that's why we're
able to negotiate
these different styles
in a cohesive way.
MATT: It was really interesting.
My first experience
with the record--
it comes on.
And I sort of like,
oh, this reminds me
of Herbie Hancock
when he first broke
into the synth and electronic
world, but not really.
And then I'm listening
a little bit more.
I'm like, I can totally hear
like the deadmau5 influence--
yeah, but not really.
None of that stuff really
explains the full compass
of what you've
created in the album.
I really enjoyed it, by the way.
DONNY MCCASLIN: Thank you.
MATT: So we do want to open
it up to audience question
and answer.
If you guys have some
questions, please make your way
to the microphone.
While people are sorting
themselves out to do that,
I do want to ask you
about what's next?
Are you planning
on hitting the road
again to support the record?
Are you doing some
stuff here in the city?
DONNY MCCASLIN: Basically, I've
got a couple more weeks off.
And then I'm going to go
to Australia and Japan
and the West Coast and
then across Canada and then
to Europe.
And it's all--
MATT: Sounds like a very
linear trip, by the way.
DONNY MCCASLIN: Yeah,
it's a linear trip.
But it's all presenting
"Beyond Now" live.
But I do have some new
material that I'm developing
that we're playing now.
And I'm hoping to, in
these next couple weeks,
write some more music.
And part of what I'm hearing
is working with vocals.
So I'm not sure exactly.
It's not going to
be me, by the way.
But I'm kind of working on,
what's that going to look like,
who's that going to be.
So that's where it's headed.
MATT: Oh, very interesting.
Let's take a question
from the audience.
DONNY MCCASLIN: Sure.
AUDIENCE: Excuse me.
The question I
would have would be,
how fleshed were the demos
that Davie Bowie gave you?
Because the B-side of "Sue" was,
"'Tis a Pity She was a Whore."
That seemed like it was
just him and a keyboard.
How orchestrated and how
involved were the demos
that you were initially given?
DONNY MCCASLIN: Let's see.
I would say fairly developed,
because there was always
a drum loop that was one
bar, maybe two bars long,
synth bass, and
then David singing,
and guitar on most things,
maybe not everything, and then
some other synth.
Sometimes the horn
lines would be on synth.
So that's kind of the
basic orchestration
of what the demos were.
I'm trying to think if there's
any exceptions to that.
Let me think for a second.
That's pretty much it.
So again, for us, the
information was all there.
It was just kind of up to
us to realize it and to--
I was talking earlier
about the approach
that I took, in terms of
orchestrating things and adding
harmony to the horn stuff.
But it was all there.
And yeah, the only tune that we
really experimented with a lot
in terms of form was
the version that we
did of "Sue," because I think
initially, it was like--
the version with Maria
with the orchestra,
there's so much content there.
So actually I thought,
well, why don't we
just go the other direction
where it's David, drums,
and bass and have it be just
super intense and the guys
going nuts and him
just on top of that.
And initially, I was cueing the
different sections or whatever.
But just the flow
really wasn't there.
So we really went back to
the song form from the Maria
version but just pared down.
And I did kind of a reduction
of the orchestration stuff, just
for clarinet and flutes.
And it just ended
up working out.
We played a certain amount of
the song and then, at the end,
were just jamming.
And for me, there's
one part of that
near the end of the song
where he kind of modulates
to another key
when he's singing--
(SINGING) "Sue"-- and
I think it's up a half
step or something.
And you hear the
whole rhythm section
just kind of bend with him.
It's a jazz moment.
He's improvising.
He was just taking the melody
and just going for something.
And it was such a
beautiful moment to me.
And I was like, he's
such a bad dude,
because he's willing to
go for that in the moment.
And then they left it in there.
And it's just tremendous.
So I hope that
answered your question.
AUDIENCE: Absolutely.
Thank you.
DONNY MCCASLIN: Sure.
MATT: I think we another.
AUDIENCE: Yeah, I'm just curious
about your recent experiments
with electronics.
Woodwinds, as a
class of instruments,
seem to be maybe among
the most difficult to
interface with electronics.
And electronic
wind instruments is
almost a different instrument.
And I know woodwinds
players do play that.
But I'm just curious
about your experiments,
to the extent that you're
willing to divulge.
DONNY MCCASLIN: Yeah.
No, I'm happy to talk about it.
I guess I felt with
the EWI, I just never
really heard it for myself.
I loved hearing people play it.
But part of the thing for
me with the electronics
was like, I don't want to
sound just like a synth,
because I already have
somebody doing that.
I still want the sound
of the saxophone there.
So just for the
longest time, I just
wasn't feeling like there was
a way to do it that made sense.
And then everybody
was telling me
how difficult it is to capture
the signal on the saxophone
and so on and so forth.
So basically,
eventually, I was--
but I just love the sound
of the ring modulator.
I love it, man.
And Tim Lefebvre has
used it for years.
And I just kept
thinking, man, if there
was a way I could do that.
And then I was on the gig
with Maria a few months ago.
And Mike Rodriguez
was playing trumpet.
And he had a clip-on mic.
And then his output was
going into a preamp--
a little preamp on stage.
And then he had
some delay thing on.
So I was like, that's cool.
That's something
I could do and I
don't have to take a
rack of extra baggage.
It's a few boxes, fits in--
MATT: [INAUDIBLE] like a
guitar player's pedalboard.
DONNY MCCASLIN: So
I got the preamp
because I felt like the
most important thing was,
how do I really capture
the saxophone sound first,
and then I want
to manipulate it.
So that the preamp solved
that, this little preamp.
And then I was in Chicago.
And a buddy of mine
works at Reverb.
Jim Tuerk works at Reverb.com.
So I emailed him.
Hey, I'm interested
in ring modulators.
And I was looking online.
And there's-- I
talked to my friends--
the Moogerfooger
that people love,
and there's a couple others.
And you look at the online demo,
and it's almost always guitar.
There was one for saxophone.
So I went.
And Jim had three
different pedals.
And I just AB-ed him.
And the one that really
worked best for saxophone
was the Fairfield
ring modulator.
So that was the
first thing I got.
And then he just threw in
a couple other delay reverb
things.
And the one I got was--
oh, it's from Akron, Ohio.
MATT: Is this an EarthQuaker?
DONNY MCCASLIN:
EarthQuaker, that's it.
So that's all I have right now.
I just have the preamp, the
ring mod, and the EarthQuaker.
But that, in and of itself, has
opened up a big world for me.
And I haven't even
really practiced with it.
Maybe once before sound
check, about a half hour,
I was just messing with it.
But I've been hearing
it for a while.
And the thing that I love is
that, the way the set-up is
so far, I can go between a
clean sound and that sound,
and it feels really seamless.
And then the distorted
ring modulator sound
doesn't sound like
a synth to me.
It just sounds like a really
edgy saxophone, distorted.
And really, it adds a lot of
the New York angst that I feel.
So I love it.
And then the reverb and delay--
so it's been great so far.
And I've just been
improvising with it on gigs.
And it's felt great.
So I'm open to new stuff.
And I just need
time to explore it.
But I'm loving it.
MATT: Sounds good.
So the album is
called "Beyond Now."
It is available now.
DONNY MCCASLIN: Yes.
MATT: How do people
connect with you?
What's the best way to find
out where you're going to be,
how can we come see a show?
DONNY MCCASLIN: Well, my
website, DonnyMcCaslin.com,
has a tour page.
And then I have a
Facebook band page
that information is posted on.
On Twitter, DonnyMcCaslin--
so all that stuff.
But I guess my website is
probably the main thing.
And the record is
on Motema Records.
And folks can get that
at iTunes and Amazon.
MATT: Google Play.
DONNY MCCASLIN:
Yeah, there you go.
Exactly.
Exactly.
So it's out there.
And I'm sure having a
lot of fun presenting it.
MATT: All right.
Well, we thank you very
much for taking the time.
DONNY MCCASLIN: Thank you, Matt.
My pleasure.
[APPLAUSE]
MATT: [INAUDIBLE]
Donny McCaslin.
