>> Matt: LAURA PASKUS, GOOD TO
SEE YOU WITHOUT A MASK ON
10 FEET AWAY.
>> Laura: HI MATT.
>> Matt: WHAT STRIKES ME ABOUT
YOUR BOOK IS THAT, ONE, WE HAVE
KNOWN ABOUT THIS FOR SO LONG.
AND, TWO, YOU DO AN EXCELLENT
JOB OF GETTING INTO SOME OF THE
HUMAN STUFF.
LET'S FIRST START WITH SOME OF
THE WORK THAT YOU HAVE DONE OVER
THE COURSE OF A COUPLE DECADES
THAT YOU HAVE BEEN COVERING
THIS.
YOU FOUND PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN
WARNING ABOUT THIS, WHO HAVE
BEEN TALKING ABOUT IT,
AT VARYING DEGREES OF VOLUME,
FOR YEARS.
WHAT HAS CHANGED?
>> Laura: I THINK THE BIG THING
THAT HAS CHANGED IS MORE AND
MORE PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT THE
CLIMATE IS CHANGING AND THAT IS
GOING TO HAVE A NEGATIVE IMPACT
ON COMMUNITIES AND LANDSCAPES
AND RESOURCES HERE IN NEW
MEXICO.
AND EVEN THOUGH THERE IS STILL A
PARTISAN DIVIDE ON CLIMATE
CHANGE AND THE UNDERSTANDING
THAT IT IS HUMAN CAUSED, IN NEW
MEXICO, THE NUMBERS DO SHOW THAT
MAJORITY OF NEW MEXICANS
UNDERSTAND THAT CLIMATE CHANGE
IS HAPPENING, UNDERSTAND IT WILL
HAVE NEGATIVE IMPACTS AND
UNDERSTAND IT IS HUMAN CAUSED.
THAT HAS DEFINITELY CHANGED
THROUGHOUT THE COURSE OF MY
REPORTING CAREER.
>> Matt: OKAY.
SORT OF THE SUBTITLE IS NEW
MEXICO'S CHANGING CLIMATE.
YOU DO A GOOD JOB OF SORT OF
BRINGING IT INTO A GLOBAL FOCUS,
TOO.
ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I NOTICED
AND THAT YOU EMPHASIZE IS THAT
WE ARE SEEING CLIMATE CHANGE
NOW.
IT IS HAPPENING IN A LOT OF THE
STUFF THAT, FOR EXAMPLE, WE SEE
ON OUR LAND EVERY MONTH BUT SNOW
PACK, FIRE SEASON, IT IS IN OUR
FACE, IT SOUNDS LIKE.
>> Laura: IT REALLY IS HERE IN
NEW MEXICO.
I FEEL LIKE NEW MEXICANS AND
MAYBE PEOPLE IN OTHER STATES
FEEL THIS WAY ABOUT THEIR STATE,
BUT IN NEW MEXICO I FEEL LIKE WE
HAVE A CLOSE CONNECTION WITH OUR
LANDSCAPES.
WE PAY ATTENTION TO OUR SEASONS,
NEW MEXICANS UNDERSTAND WHAT IS
HAPPENING AROUND THEM.
SO, WHETHER IT IS A LONGER FIRE
SEASON OR BIG FIRES WITH PRETTY
TROUBLING FLOODS AFTERWARDS, OR
THE DRY RIO GRANDE, WE SEE THESE
IMPACTS ALL OVER THE PLACE BUT
THEY HAVE BEEN HAPPENING ALL
OVER THE WORLD FOR A WHILE NOW.
IN THE BOOK I TALKED A LITTLE
BIT ON WHAT WAS HAPPENING EVEN
10 YEARS AGO IN THE PACIFIC
WHERE YOU HAVE ISLANDS THAT ARE
BEING INUNDATED BY THE OCEAN AND
PEOPLE ASKING FOR HELP AND
ASKING WHY AMERICANS AREN'T
PAYING ATTENTION TO CLIMATE
CHANGE AND AREN'T TAKING ACTION
ON CLIMATE CHANGE.
WE SEE THE IMPACTS ALL ACROSS
THE GLOBE.
>> Matt: WE SEE THEM KIND OF
SLOWLY OR AT LEAST WE WERE,
RIGHT?
IT WAS SORT OF THIS SLOW MOTION
CRASH THAT IS NOW MANIFESTING
ITSELF.
TO THE POINT WHERE IT SOUNDS
LIKE WE USED TO SAY, WOW, IT HAS
BEEN LIKE A HOT STRETCH, YOU
KNOW, OR WE HAD A GREAT WINTER
OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
NOW, WE KIND OF KNOW WHAT WE CAN
PIN TO CLIMATE CHANGE, AT LEAST
MORE, IT SOUNDS LIKE.
>> Laura: THIS YEAR IS AN
INTERESTING YEAR FOR NEW MEXICO,
I THINK, FOR US TO BE PAYING
ATTENTION TO BECAUSE THE RIO
GRANDE DRIES PRETTY REGULARLY AS
WE HAVE SEEN DIMINISHED SNOW
PACK.
AS WE CHOOSE TO USE THE RIVER'S
WATER FOR OTHER USES.
BUT, THIS YEAR IS REALLY
INTERESTING BECAUSE THE RIVER
STARTED TO DRY AT THE END OF MAY
EARLY JUNE AND RIGHT NOW THERE
IS ABOUT 40 MILES DRY OF THE
MIDDLE RIO GRANDE, BUT THIS
YEAR'S SNOW PACK WASN'T SUPER
BAD.
IT WAS CLOSE TO NORMAL FROM THE
FALL THROUGH FEBRUARY AND YET WE
STILL SAW REDUCED SNOW PACK AND
AN EARLY SNOW MELT.
SO FOR PLACES LIKE THE ARID
SOUTHWEST, WARMING MEANS DRYING,
SO, EVEN IF WE HAVE CLOSE TO
NORMAL PRECIPITATION, THIS
WARMING THAT WE ARE SEEING IS
HAVING SUCH BIG IMPACTS ON OUR
WATER RESOURCES, ON THE RIVERS
AND ON THE ABILITY TO RELY ON
SURFACE WATER.
>> Matt: YOU SPEND A FAIR AMOUNT
OF TIME TALKING ABOUT THE
CONCEPT THAT JONATHAN OVERPECK
HAS OF A HOT DROUGHT, A DROUGHT
MORE RELIANT ON TEMPERATURE THAN
IT IS ON PRECIPITATION.
IS THAT KNID OF WHAT YOU'RE
TALKING ABOUT?
>> Laura: EXACTLY, WHERE EVEN
WHEN WE HAVE A GOOD SNOW PACK,
THAT MELTS OUT EARLY AND FAST,
OR WE HAVE CLOSE TO NORMAL
PRECIPITATION BUT THAT COMES
IN RAIN INSTEAD OF SNOW.
SO THERE IS ALL KINDS OF ISSUES
INVOLVED WITH THAT DROUGHT
INCLUDING THAT THE WARMER IT IS,
THE MORE PLANTS NEED WATER, THE
FASTER YOUR SOILS DRY OUT, THE
HARDER IT IS TO RECOVER WHEN
THERE IS PRECIPITATION SO HOT
CELL IS A REALLY IMPORTANT
CONCEPT FOR NEW MEXICANS TO
UNDERSTAND.
>> Matt: YOU TALK ABOUT A GUY
NAMED GREGG GARFIN WHO HAS --
WHO IS A SCIENTIST.
ONE OF THE THINGS YOU QUOTE HIM
AS SAYING, THE BIG MESSAGE FOR
ME IS THE INTERCONNECTEDNESS
BETWEEN ALL THESE SYSTEMS.
IF WE TRY TO LOOK AT THOSE IN
ISOLATION, WE ARE SETTING
OURSELVES UP FOR MORE PROBLEMS.
THE IDEA THAT WE ARE GETTING
RAIN INSTEAD OF SNOW HAS
FAR-FLUNG IMPACTS AND IT IS ALL
CONNECTED.
>> Laura: IT IS.
AS THE CLIMATE HAS CHANGED, WE
ARE STILL RELYING ON A WATER
INFRASTRUCTURE THAT WAS ENTIRELY
SET UP FOR A SNOW MELT SYSTEM.
YOU KNOW, OUR BIG RESERVOIRS,
WHEN WATER IS DELIVERED.
ALL OF THESE SYSTEMS ARE
BECOMING OUTDATED AND SO THAT IS
A BIG -- YOU KNOW WE KIND OF
NEED TO CATCH UP POLITICALLY,
SOCIALLY AND IN TERMS OF OUR
TECHNICAL AND ENGINEERING
EFFORTS, WE NEED TO START TRYING
TO CATCH UP WITH THE CLIMATE.
>> Matt: WE ARE MUCH BETTER AT
THAT BUT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT
ADDED UP TOGETHER PROBABLY
MULTI-BILLION DOLLAR SYSTEMS.
THAT IS COST TO BUILD A DAM OR
EVEN A WATER CONTROL SYSTEM IS
ALMOST MIND BOGGLING NOW.
>> Laura: WOULDN'T IT HAVE BEEN
GREAT IF WE STARTED PLANNING FOR
THIS 20 YEARS AGO WHEN WE HAD A
REALLY GOOD IDEA OF WHAT WAS
HAPPENING OR EVEN BACK IN THE
1960'S WHEN THERE WAS SOME
PRETTY SOLID CENSUS BUILDING
AROUND THE FACT THAT THE CLIMATE
WAS CHANGING. INSTEAD WE HAVE
JUST CONTINUED TO KICK DECISIONS
DOWN THE ROAD AND THEY GET MORE
EXPENSIVE AND HARDER TO
IMPLEMENT AND CERTAINLY RIGHT
NOW WE HAVE SO MANY DIFFERENT
CRISES TO FOCUS ON THAT I WORRY
THAT THE CLIMATE CRISIS WHICH IS
BECOMING MORE AND MORE
PRONOUNCE, WILL KIND OF GET
PUSHED ASIDE ONCE AGAIN.
>> Matt: AS YOU READ THROUGH THE
BOOK, AS I READ THROUGH THE
BOOK, LIKE I SAID, THE HUMAN
PART OF THIS COMES UP SO OFTEN.
WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE SYSTEMS
NETWORKING IT IS NOT JUST
CLIMATIC, IT IS HUMAN.
I AM WONDERING WHAT YOU THINK
THAT DOES TO OUR SENSE OF PLACE
AND OF HISTORY, THESE TRADITIONS
THAT WE HAVE IN THE PLACE THAT
WE LIVE.
>> Laura: ONE OF THE THINGS,
LIKE I MENTIONED BEFORE, I
REALLY FEEL LIKE AS NEW MEXICANS
WE ARE VERY CLOSELY CONNECTED TO
OUR PLACES.
AS THOSE PLACES CHANGE, WHETHER
IT IS CONIFER FORESTS IN THE
JEMEZ THAT ARE EITHER BURNING
OFF OR DYING OFF OR OUR DRY
RIVER BEDS, WE START SEEING
THINGS LIKE A DRY RIVER BED AS
NORMAL AND STOP THINKING THAT
THAT IS SOMETHING THAT IS AND
SHOULD BE ALARMING, AND THAT WE
SHOULD REALLY BE, AS A SOCIETY
THINKING, ABOUT HOW WE ENSURE
THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN.
BUT I THINK ONE OF THE DANGERS
IN WRITING ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE,
AND I DEFINITELY HAVE FELT THIS
AT DIFFERENT TIMES IN MY
REPORTING CAREER, IT IS REALLY
EASY TO BECOME DISCOURAGED AND
IT IS REALLY EASY TO THINK THE
FORESTS ARE DYING AND I FEEL SAD
AND WHY SHOULD I CARE ABOUT THIS
LANDSCAPE ANYMORE? I THINK AS
ALL THESE CHANGES ARE HAPPENING,
I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD ACCEPT,
FOR EXAMPLE, A DRY RIVER BED AS
SOMETHING THAT IS NORMAL.
AND SOMETHING THAT WE SHOULD
JUST EXPECT BUT I DO THINK WE
NEED TO BE BUILDING NEW
RELATIONSHIPS WITH THE
LANDSCAPES AS THEY CHANGE SO
THAT WE'RE NOT JUST GRIEF
STRICKEN OR SO WE DON'T JUST
FEEL DESPAIR AND LEAN TOWARD
INACTION BUT KIND OF EMBRACING
CHANGE AS SOMETHING THAT IS
INEVITABLE AND GOSH IT WOULD
HAVE BEEN GREAT IF WE HAD
LIMITED OUR GREEN HOUSE GAS
EMISSIONS DECADES AGO, BUT THIS
CHANGE IS HAPPENING AND WE HAVE
TO ADAPT TO IT.
>> Matt: YOU HAVE A COUPLE OF
REALLY GOOD CHAPTERS IN THE
MIDDLE OF THIS BOOK ABOUT THE
LOSS OF YOUR FATHER AND HOW THE
FAITH COMMUNITY IS RESPONDING TO
IT.
HOW DID YOU START TO MAKE SENSE
OF GRIEF AND KIND OF THE
PARALLEL PATHWAYS OR CHANNELS OF
GRIEF WITH THE LOSS OF YOUR
FATHER.
>> Laura: I THINK IT IS REALLY
EASY TO -- I THINK IT IS REALLY
EASY TO BE SAD SOMETIMES AND
EASY TO BE ANGRY, ESPECIALLY
WHEN YOU ARE THINKING ABOUT
ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUES, IT IS EASY
TO FEEL ANGRY ABOUT THINGS THAT
YOU SEE HAPPENING THAT YOU THINK
ARE UNJUST OR UNFAIR.
AND THAT ANGER CAN PROPEL YOU
FORWARD TOWARD ACTION, BUT AFTER
A WHILE IT IS EXHAUSTING AND
AFTER A WHILE IT EATS YOU UP AND
KIND OF MAKES YOU ACT IN OTHER
WAYS OF YOUR LIFE THAT MAYBE
AREN'T GREAT OR HEALTHY.
SO, I THINK ONE OF THE REALLY
IMPORTANT LESSONS THAT I LEARNED
IS THAT IF YOU LOVE SOMETHING,
YOU WILL TAKE CARE OF IT AND YOU
WILL NURTURE IT AND FIGHT FOR
IT.
IF YOU CAN KIND OF KEY INTO
THAT, THAT THAT IS A WAY TO KEEP
MOVING FORWARD ON THESE ISSUES
THAT ARE SUPER OVERWHELMING.
>> Matt: SURE.
AS A COUNTRY, RIGHT NOW WE ARE
DEALING WITH SORT OF ANOTHER ONE
OF THESE LONG ISSUES OF RACE AND
RACIAL INJUSTICE.
THE FAITH COMMUNITY IS TIED
INTO, I THINK, BOTH OF THESE
MOVEMENTS.
HOW DID YOU SEE CHURCHES AND
CENTERS OF FAITH RESPONDING TO
THIS?
YOU TALK ABOUT IT A LITTLE BIT
AS SORT OF ALMOST A MORAL ISSUE
MUCH LIKE RACIAL JUSTICE WOULD
BE.
>> Laura: I WAS ABLE TO TALK
WITH SOME GREAT FAITH LEADERS IN
NEW MEXICO WHEN REPORTING ON
CLIMATE CHANGE AND ESPECIALLY
BACK A FEW YEARS AGO WHEN POPE
FRANCIS ISSUED HIS ENCYCLICAL
CALLING FOR ACTION ON CLIMATE
CHANGE AND IT WAS AROUND ALSO A
REALLY IMPORTANT INTERNATIONAL
MEETING THAT THE TIMING SORT OF
CORRESPONDED AND THERE WERE SO
MANY PEOPLE, NOT JUST CATHOLICS,
BUT PEOPLE ACROSS FAITHS COMING
TOGETHER TO SAY, WE'RE
CARETAKERS OF THE EARTH,
CARETAKERS OF ONE ANOTHER AND WE
SHOULD BE TAKING CARE OF THIS
ISSUE OF CLIMATE CHANGE AND ALSO
RECOGNIZING THAT CLIMATE CHANGE
IMPACTS VULNERABLE COMMUNITIES
FIRST AND MOST DEEPLY.
SO, IT IS A SOCIAL JUSTICE
ISSUE.
IT IS A MORAL ISSUE AND IT IS AN
ISSUE THAT SO MANY DIFFERENT
COMMUNITIES OF FAITH HAVE SAID,
WE'RE ALL -- WE ALL WANT TO WORK
ON THIS TOGETHER.
>> Matt: HAVE THEY REACHED OUT
TO NATIVE COMMUNITIES WHOM YOU
DESCRIBE IN THE BOOK AS -- I
DON'T KNOW IF YOU USE THESE
WORDS, BUT I GET THE PICTURE OF
THEM BEING SORT OF ON THE EDGE.
THEY ARE IN THE PLACES WHERE THE
SEA LEVEL IS RISING OR IN NAVAJO
NATION WHERE THEY DON'T HAVE
RUNNING WATER AND IT IS ONLY
GETTING MORE DRY.
IS THERE A CONNECTION BETWEEN
THOSE COMMUNITIES?
>> Laura: YEAH.
I THINK IN COVERING SORT OF
IMPACTS OF OIL AND GAS DRILLING
IN NORTHWESTERN NEW MEXICO,
THERE WAS A WOMAN I HAD
INTERVIEWED WHO TALKED ABOUT HOW
THE U.S. GOVERNMENT WANTED ALL
THESE GOOD LANDS AND PUT
PEOPLE -- PUT NATIVE COMMUNITIES
OUT ON THESE SORT OF INFERIOR
LANDS IN MANY INSTANCES LIKE
WITH THE NAVAJO NATION KIND OF
PUSHED PEOPLE OUT THERE.
AND THEN WENT, OH, MY GOSH,
THERE IS OIL, THERE IS URANIUM,
THERE IS NATURAL GAS, THERE IS
COAL.
WE WANT TO EXTRACT ALL OF THAT.
SO YOU HAVE PEOPLE IN THESE
COMMUNITIES WHO ARE DEALING WITH
THE DAILY PUBLIC HEALTH AND
ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACTS OF AN
EXTRACTIVE INDUSTRY AND THESE
ARE ALSO AMONG THE AREAS HARDEST
HIT BY CLIMATE CHANGE BECAUSE OF
THIS HOT DROUGHT, BECAUSE OF
THIS MOVE OF THIS ARID LAND TO
BE EVEN WARMER AND DRYER.
YOU HAVE MANY NATIVE COMMUNITIES
BEARING A DISPROPORTIONATE
IMPACT OF THE IMPACTS OF CLIMATE
CHANGE.
>> Matt: WELL, LAURA, THIS IS A
GREAT BOOK AND THERE IS A TON
MORE TO TALK ABOUT.
I HAVE ALL MY PINK NOTES IN HERE
BUT I LOOK FORWARD TO MANY MORE
AND THANKS FOR DOING THIS WORK
AND FOR STARING AT THIS STAFF
THAT IS HARD FOR A LOT OF US TO
LOOK AT.
>> Laura: THANKS MATT.
