>> Pat Ryan: The Modern
Science Laboratory is designed
to spend almost two years
analyzing rock and soil samples
to see if Mars is going to be
favorable for microbial life
or to preserve any end to
preserve any clues they find
about possible life that
was there in the past.
The robotic missions that are
like this one are being worked
from NASA centers
all over the country.
They are stepping stones
to future missions to Mars.
In fact, right here at
the Johnson Space Center,
there are teams that are
working to develop the food
that human crews would eat on
a mission that would take them
to Mars and this morning
we're going to learn more
about that effort from
Dr. Michele Perchonok
who is the Advanced Food
Technology Project Scientist.
Good morning.
>> Dr. Michele Perchonok:
Good morning.
>> Pat: What how long has
NASA been working on issues
about food for a
mission to Mars?
>> Dr. Perchonok: Well I've
been at NASA for twelve years
and they've been working on
it a lot longer than that
so I'm going to say
about twenty years.
>> Pat: I assume that we've
taken whatever we've learned
feeding crews on previous
flights, on space station,
on space shuttle and prior
missions is being rolled
in here.
What are the basics in trying
to develop something like this?
>> Dr. Perchonok: Well we
have actually we call it a two
pronged food system so first
is the packaged food system
that we already have
and are using
on International Space Station
but there's a little bit
of a difference on International
Space Station our food only has
to last about eighteen
months or so.
>> Pat: Good.
>> Dr. Perchonok: but on a
Mars mission they have to last
about five years so that
takes into account the fact
that they'll probably
preposition the food
on orbit before the crew gets
there, the time it takes for us
to make the food, as well as of
course the time that they have
to eat it so five year shelf
life not seen anywhere else
except maybe our military.
The other piece of the
food system is once we're
on the surface we can do what
we call a bioregenerative food
system, that's growing in
garmental chambers fresh fruits
and vegetables, either
growing or brining up in bulk,
things like soy beans,
wheat berries, peanuts
and then processing those
into ingredients such as tofu,
or wheat flower into bread,
or into pasta and then
of course the vegetables and
fruit can be used for just pick
and eat, or to process
maybe into a tomato sauce,
or into cooked vegetables
so the packaged food side
of things yes we have some
experience but we have
to go further but the
bioregenerative side we're
really doing very
little of that right now.
>> Pat: Are you thinking in
terms of growing it in the soil
on Mars, growing food there?
>> Dr. Perchonok:
No, so the thought is
that we will instead be
using environmental chambers
which will control the
temperature, the humidity,
the lighting and then they
would be grown hydroponically
so that we can recycle the
water and nutrients would be put
into the water and also because
these chambers are limited
in size we would probably
also be looking at dwarf
like plants, so smaller version.
>> Pat: tiny vegetables.
>> Dr. Perchonok: Well,
cherry tomatoes instead
of regular tomatoes,
cherry tomato plants might
only grow one to two feet,
whereas regular tomato plants
could grow four feet or so.
>> Pat: In thinking about
this I was thinking in terms
of feeding a crew on the way
to Mars and that sounds to me
like there are certain
things you just have to do
without because you
can't refrigerate
and you can't carry that much.
>> Dr. Perchonok: Right
so on the way to Mars,
which is about a six month
trip, and on the way home,
which is also a six month trip,
providing that the
planets are aligned
in their closest orientation,
we would use a food
system very similar
to International Space Station
so it would be a
packaged food system
where they're individually
packaged items
for each crew member so it
would be a serving of meatloaf,
or a serving of broccoli
au gratin
and they would just basically
rehydrate or heat that food.
>> Pat: Is there enough, how
much space does that much food
for that size crew take up?
>> Dr. Perchonok: It's
a lot so if you assume
and we don't know the crew size
but if you assume a crew of six
and you assume 1,000 day
mission, then we're talking
about almost or about
twenty thousand pounds
of packaged food.
Now that doesn't assume any
of the bioregenerative part.
Twenty thousand pounds of food,
the volume we calculated that
and we think it's
about the amount
of three large refrigerators
full so we're talking
about a small room or a
large closet worth of food
so doesn't sound like a lot
but that's really, really,
really tightly packed.
>> Pat: Apparently it would seem
to me that it would have to take
up a lot more room than that.
>> Dr. Perchonok: Gut feel yes
and so you know we've
done the calculations
and again its taking
into a lot of assumptions
that we don't necessarily
know the real answer
so how is it going
to be packaged?
Are there going to be racks or
other sort of secondary places
to stow them, in that case
it would take more room
so that kind of information
we don't have
yet so this is clearly just
the food, nothing else,
so if you're going to pack it
into something and then pack it
into something else, or
you have to add foam to it
to protect the packaging,
that all is extra space.
>> Pat: When you're
thinking about being able
to provide a crew with all
the vitamins and minerals
and nutrients that they need,
do you assume that it all comes
from meals that they eat or
are there other supplements
that help you do that?
>> Dr. Perchonok:
So currently on ISS,
International Space
Station, the only supplement
that the crew is required
to take is vitamin D
because the only way to really
get vitamin D in any quantity is
from the sun and obviously
they're not having any sunshine.
There are ways in the food
to do it but not as easily.
We have to make the
assumption to try
to give them all the nutrients
they need, all of the vitamins
and minerals and protein,
carbohydrate, fat, calories etc.
through the food because
ironically, or much more
of a challenge, is
that nutrients
in a pill actually break down
faster than the nutrients
in the food so chemistry
happens whether it's
in a pill form or the food form.
It seems like that matrix
in the food is actually
protecting the vitamins
so if we can bring up enough
food with enough quantity
of vitamins and minerals
in that food we're ok.
The problem is in the
packaged food system
to make sure its stable
without a refrigerator
or freezer we have to process it
and that process often
will be partly heat
to kill the micro-organisms,
or radiation to kill them,
or drying it down to allow
so that the micro-organisms
can't grow.
Now we have new technologies
we're looking
at microwave sterilization,
high pressure,
which look at killing the
micro-organisms either
by through the pressure of
breaking the cell structure
or microwaves but either
way we're introducing a step
that can kill not only the
micro-organisms but some
of the nutrients so we have
that challenge in there.
>> Pat: And that's part of what
we do in the station food now
with the freeze dried food
and thermostabalized food.
>> Dr. Perchonok:
Correct, correct.
All of that is already
on station and one
of our studies is looking
at not only how much
of the nutrients you lose
through the processing but then
if you look at them at ambient
or room temperature storage
for one year or three years
how much more are you losing
because unfortunately that
chemistry continues to happen
and we lose more nutrients.
>> Pat: Does that mean you
have to add more nutrients
to them ahead of time to
account for the degradation?
>> Dr. Perchonok: So that's one
way to do it and we would call
that fortification and
actually in our beverages
that are fortified because
the beverages were dried
and then you add
the vitamins to it,
they actually do maintain
more vitamin stability.
The other way now is to
protect those vitamins:
Can you encapsulate them?
Can you do something
else to them
so that they are more protected
and think of it as almost
like in a shell so that they
don't react with the water
or the oxygen out there and
allow them to stay more stable
for longer periods of time.
>> Pat: It's very
interesting to think about that
down to the details
but we sucked all
of the excitement
out of food too.
[laughter] Are the
crew members going
to get bored having what I
guess is a narrow selection
over the course of
two or three years?
>> Dr. Perchonok: So that is
another study we're doing is
looking at how much
variety do you need?
How can you sort of
mix it up a little bit
with different condiments?
How do you make it more special
with extra you know special
meals whether its holidays
or birthdays or just say it's
the first Sunday of the month
but right now we have
about 180 food items
on International Space Station
and that seems to be well
and then we have another
hundred or so items from Russia
and some more from
Europe so we're probably
at about a three hundred
number and that seems
to be the right number
for a six month mission.
What do you need for a two and a
half year mission and that's one
of the reasons why we're looking
at this bioregenerative
food system
because it introduces a
little bit more variety,
it introduces a little
bit more creativity,
well you know tonight
I'm going to put
in my pasta sauce bell
peppers but not onions
and the next night I'm
going to put in onions
and not bell peppers so
it's a little bit different
but yes they are going to
get bored, it's not like here
on earth where we can say I
don't feel like eating anything
out of my refrigerator
so I'm going to go
to a restaurant tonight.
>> Pat: If you get bored with
the food as a crew member might
in this circumstance do you
find that they don't eat as much
as they're supposed to?
>> Dr. Perchonok: That
is what we're finding
that they don't eat as much when
they're bored with the food,
that the acceptability of
the food goes down and so
and that's a big concern
because this food allows them
to perform well, keep healthy
and more importantly it helps
to mitigate the bone
loss and muscle mass loss
that they do experience
in microgravity.
>> Pat: What kinds of things
do you have on the menu
at this point, if
we were launching
to Mars tomorrow what kind
of food would be
available for a crew?
>> Dr. Perchonok: Well right now
of our sixty plus
thermostabalized items,
which is basically
canned food in a pouch,
only seven of them have
a five year shelf life
and they all happen to be meat
items so brisket, pork chops,
meatloaf, so not
a lot of variety
but we're working towards
trying to get that improved
and making sure that they have
a good variety of items just
like they do on International
Space Station
from chocolate pudding
cake for dessert,
to having scrambled eggs or a
cinnamon scone for breakfast
and you know fruit you know
strawberries or whatever
so we're working towards it.
>> Pat: Now in this case
you got maybe twenty years
or more before we're
ready to make that trip is
that why we need to be preparing
the menu now for a trip
that doesn't launch until
the twenty thirties?
>> Dr. Perchonok: Well you're
right, we have a lot of time,
however, the bioregenerative
food system piece we're
estimating could take ten if
not fifteen years to develop
because not only do we have to
determine what we want to do
with it, what we want to grow
but then what do you need
to process and what
equipment do you need for that
and you'll have a galley
that I describe as a sort
of a twenty first century galley
but a fifteenth century
operations
because you may have a juicer or
a food processor but meanwhile
if you're making bread you're
either going to have to knead it
by hand or have a bread maker,
or if you want grated
carrots you're going to have
to grate them, you can't go
to the grocery store and pick
up those grated carrots
so there's a lot involved
in the bioregenerative
food system.
So what we're trying to do
is say ok we're going to sort
of put that out in the future
and not necessarily do it right
away but right now let's look
at that packaged food system
because if we can extend the
shelf life now that makes
that if you think about it
if you can have a higher
quality food up front
so that it doesn't it's
still good in five years,
think about how good it would
be in one year or two years
for International Space Station
so we're working on that first.
We hope to have a five year
shelf life food system ready.
Knowing how to do it, not
necessarily having developed all
of those two hundred plus
products by about twenty twenty
and then we can take
some time to develop all
of those formulations, we
don't call them recipes,
we call them formulations.
>> Pat: It all sounds very
interesting and be interesting
to see how it turns
out, what comes up next.
Thanks for your for bringing
us up to date on that.
>> Dr. Perchonok:
You're welcome.
>> Pat: Michele Perchonok is
the Advanced Food Technology
Project Scientist.
