so I think we'll make a start
if everybody is sort of taking their
seat
welcome to the Scottish
National Gallery are hopefully all
having a wonderful Edinburgh Festival
yeah everyone seems to be smiling yeah
everyone's having a great time right
well this is the Scottish National
Gallery and SSHoP festival lecture and
our speaker this evening is Janice
Janice Galloway now my name is Alex
Hamilton I'm chair of SSHoP which stands
for the Scottish Society for the History
of Photography and we asked Janice to
contribute to our journal which I will
show you. This is our journal and we're
launching it we're launching the summer
edition that Jan has contributed to
tonight so they will be on sale so
please make sure you get a copy I'm sure
Janice might even sign her
particular page if you ask her kindly. So we asked Janice to contribute
to the journal and we also that might be
a great idea to ask her to be our
festival lecturer this year so and she
kindly consented so she's going to be
talking on really collecting
photographs, family association with
photographs, she'll weave you are a
wonderful story about really why why are
we a passionate and a whole range of
ways about having
taking photographs. Now before I
introduce Janice just a little bit about
the format for this evening Janice will
talk for about 45 - 50 minutes and then
while open it up to questions as to
roving mics so in terms they don't keen
have a question then please put your
question in we are going to be filming
Janice's talk this evening SSHoP have
launched their own YouTube video channel
so it will go live at some point so if
you don't want to be filmed asking a
question you can discretely discretely
leave it some
if you want to but yeah that's a brave
new new approach for us. As I was saying
we'll have a reception to to celebrate
the talk and to launch the journal and
also to actually have some analysis
books available this evening that'll
happen about seven o'clock you're all
welcome, free glass of wine, always makes
sense and the National Gallery in your
honor
are going to give 15% off everything in
the shop including the journal so your
chance to spend whatever money got left
after this very expensive festival so I
think that's most of the house keeping
rules I really want to thank Steven
Morgan and the Scottish National
Gallery for putting this event on. We're
a charity so basically a voluntary
organisation so for us it's a real
privilege to do things in partnership
with the National Gallery. They provide
all these wonderful facilities so very
much a big warm thanks to to Steven
Morgan for for putting on the event
along with it with his staff so
Janice Galloway I don't think Janice needs
much of an introduction really she's one
of Scotland's sort of foremost writers I
had the pleasure of hearing her speak at
the Edinburgh Book Festival where she
spoke about one of her passions, Muriel
Spark, and yeah it was it was a it was a
really wonderful wonderful experience I
think we're in for a real treat tonight
in terms of the topic that Janice
wants to cover so I'll hand over to
Janice and
Does anybody know if these are mine, yeah,
no God no they're not mine
that's that one sorted hello Edinburgh
oh good somebody said hello back okay a
lot of you said it, you are terribly
well trained anyway. I'm not at all sure
actually A. what I'm doing here and B. I
know I brought a wee bit I was very
proud to be asked to do something called
writers choice and choose a photograph
of my own to offer for the magazine and
I think this is what's what's brought
this about. I don't very often talk about
pictures I tend to write about them and
talking about them is far more difficult
I discovered. I discovered this yesterday
when I tried to speak the thing out loud
that I had written down so I've thrown
away and what I'm gonna do is kind of
busk on certain ideas which ought to be
inside these pictures I
think I can speak to the pictures as
they actually sit in front of you rather
than some kind of idea of them. The only
difficulty I had was with the idea that
was put to me was the habit of collecting
photos as mementos. And you you lied
specifically to this audience why we do
not have a lot of photographs my family
I have I think 14 so you're gonna get a
chance to see almost everything in my
family heirlooms tonight and the
peculiar thing about them was that they
tended to be for events. I was born in
1955 it is hard to believe it's harder
for me to believe than it is for you to
believe but it's it's one of these
things I remember about being born in
1955 is a lot of stuff was dramatically
not DIY. If you wanted a family picture
you've got the man from
the main street, who was right next to,
was right next to the fruit shop
actually.
Why the photographer would be next to the
fruit shop I don't know but that was
very was and you went in and asked him
if he'd come round to your house and a
stranger that arrived at your door. The
first time I saw this man doing his work
I would be five and I was terrified.
There were no men in our household I
don't think I've ever seen one up close.
And there was this man going on forever
with an extra pair of eyes. It was quite
a terrifying thing and that experience
of having the photograph taken has never
been one I've enjoyed I don't think it
was the poor man's fault I think I was kind
of destined not to enjoy it very much
but it was something that I was always
fairly wary of especially since when I
was about seven everybody in the world
start to have access to a cheap camera
even the man next door who spent all his
money and drink according to my mother
had bought one Lord knows why but he had
indeed bought one and the fact of a
camera being accessible and available
kind of sifted in to me I didn't take my
own pictures though until I would be
about ten about ten years old and then I
would only take pictures of animals
because of course one of the things a
good girl from Saltcoats is always
told is don't speak to anybody hen,
there's a lot of Glasgow folk out there.
And there were in Saltcoats sure that was
exactly the case and I used to take
pictures of animals more than anything
else and landscape which is what I still
do so it's a surprise to be asked to
send a picture of a person. In the end I
chose someone very close to me. To start
this one why do we take photographs I
don't know the answer in the in a lot of
cases I think we take photographs for a
whole variety of reasons or not very few
of them have to do with memory "I want to
remember this", very few of them are to do
with that because invariably you do
forget dates. I have taken photos of
events and I can't actually remember
what events are that might just be me
looking at your face madam it scene is
just me yeah
you seem very skeptical.
But this one surprised me a great deal
when I was trying to put things
together. These people are, well some of
them at least, are smiling and they've
absolutely no reason to smile and you'll
find out in a minute
why not. We've always done this it's
a human thing to do all animals leave
marks or they leave scent trails they
leave something that says I was here I
am here. A lot of them greet each other. I
have a cat and I now have two chickens
because the Fox eat four of them the
night before but they speak to you, they
will come up and address you and once
the address is done they will go on with
what they're doing in their life. We
also need to to kind of assert ourselves
in the manner of asserting our agency
and the other thing that photographs do
is just remind us that we were there. I
don't think any of these things are
contentious. These hands are 30,000 years
old and they are from Lascaux.
They're from a place of very
nearly Lascaux which is much lesser known
that they don't like tourists in very
usually and I was visiting the Lascaux
caves and someone said would you like to
see that this other gallery and this was
something that I saw there and I can
still scarcely believe these are the
hands of people who haven't drawn breath
for 30,000 years it cannot be possible
but there they are clear as day. And in
a way that I think is what the
photograph is too - it's our modern
equivalent it's what we do to assert
that we are actually there. Photographs
show you what you look like, they show you
how other people present themselves, they
help our recall of events. I think that's
one of the main reasons why people take
them, family events in particular, but the
parties, weddings, that kind of thing that
kind of thing. There was nobody taking
photographs at my wedding because I hate
having my photograph taken but usually
there are there are photographs taken at
weddings to make an evidential record
of things tends to be a purpose like to
let people show off that holidays tends
to be the more basic purpose and some
people think it's easier than putting
things into words. I've seen
that simply to if I could only visit
friends who've been on holiday recently
they would sometimes say "if you want to
see where we were on holiday, there you are!" And that is the end of that. You can look at the snap so
you can forget it.
Because they already have. We seem to
move on very very fast these days but
there are a whole bunch of reasons why we
would be attracted to pictures. The
Heirloom I remembered most in our house
is my mother's fur coat. It looked like
a dead bear I have no idea what it was
made of but it was something extremely
hairy and something that smelled bad and
had smelled bad for a long time to the
point where nobody wore it. It wasn't
actually my mother's, it was given to my
mother as her as a kind of memento mori.
She had nursed the lady who stayed
next door who was very sick and she gave
my mother a coat as a parting gift.
We had no idea what to do
with this bloody coat in a house. It
looked like something was waiting to
jump out on you when you went past and
that fur coat I remember very
particularly was something that nobody
wanted to wear and nobody wanted to be
anywhere near. There was something about it that made us draw back and it was
almost a marker of family and what my
mother did eventually was take a
photograph of it so she could throw it
out. Now there's a solution and that's
the lineage I come from. Somebody who
will think up an idea like 'I can only
throw this away if I take a photo of it'.
Unfortunately I tried to find it for you
so you can see what was talking about it
I don't have it I knew that it was made
of something that was dead I think my
mother did to the smell told you it was
made of something dead so eventually it
just vanished. The experience having
been raised by a small family
unit, mine was a very small family unit,
and all female, was that we don't we
don't necessarily get to pick and choose
the kind of things we remember. Some of
the things who remembered won't be
memories at all but the result of
stories that we've been told. And I was
absolutely sure I was at a certain event
until I was told there wasn't I've been
told stories about the event. It's very
very difficult to work out what you have
actually experienced in your life when
you're a child and what you've just been
told about and what has become a kind of
mythology or as something that applies
to your family and that is one of the
things that photographs made remarkable
difference too when it came to people
trying to facilitate memory and their
own lives.
This is a very early picture it's a
Robert and Clara Schumann. You probably
know who they are.
Robert played and wrote piano music and Clara his wife, who was there the breadwinner,
Robert made absolutely no money at all
and Clara, who played the piano
taught piano lessons and was one of the
foremost pianists of her day. So that's
the breadwinner and the guy who
sits in the corner writing songs that
for a long time nobody wanted and after
his death she looked after the songs and
they became a lot more famous than she
was. Clara here was 30, Roberts was 40 and
they must have stood like this, you'll
see on the thing, must have stood like
this for at least 15 minutes, they may
possibly have stood like that for 30
minutes. Now look at his feet he hasn't
budged has he? That man has stood there
for however long it took. Clara has tried
to drop the smile on one occasion, you
can see this a bit of fudge we're at
mouth is, but apart from that this
photograph of them exists through a
certain amount of suffering and they
didn't even ask for it.
It wasn't their idea. Somebody wanted, they're
very famous couple, and somebody wanted them taken for posterity, for the press.
It was never used for any other purpose
but they submitted to it because it was
a new thing and an exciting thing. This
one on the other hand it's a totally
different thing it's the photo we
started with this was taken in 1948 and
some of the women are smiling, it's
bizarre.
Because this small group are among
120,000 naturalized japanese-americans
who were forced into internment camps
after Pearl Harbor was attacked.
Roosevelt knew that these people had had
nothing to do with the attack but it was
teaching the 'Japs' a lesson and making
the best of it, bizarrely there are loads
of these, look it up online. Families got
together because they were together like
kinding almost pretending they were on a
holiday and they took snaps of the
family group there. I find them deeply
disturbing partly because they are
trying to make the best of something
it's very hard to make the best of. Some
of them died in those camps because they
weren't fed very well but this family
apparently all survived and I noticed it
was the women who were smiling. What does
that tell us about about how the genders
react to things or about how women are
raised the women are trying to smile
because it's what you're meant to do
when somebody points a camera at you. The wee boy down there you knows perfectly
well there's something very odd going on,
he is uncomfortable. But the photograph
had not yet reached, even by that time
1948, any kind of ubiquity. You could make
it into whatever you wanted and that I
guess was this family's way of trying to
cheer themselves up. I looked at it ages
and discovered the two women at the back
were smiling the two daughters have
their eyes shut maybe they were blocking
out the camp I don't know it's a strange
one. This is maybe something they are
more familiar with this is a picture of
a clippy. Driving the Ardrossan bus and
her driver in the mid-1930s, her driver is
not her husband, her husband is standing
off some way waiting to get on another
bus because he was such a querulous man
my father clippys refused to get on his bus.
So he was one of these drivers who
actually said 'come on get aff' in place of
having someone else in the bus to do it.
My mother's driver there is a nice
smiling man and she kept that
photograph. I managed to find it after
her death or into the house and rooted
through the photographs and found this one
on purpose. I don't have any photographs
with my mother with my father. But I do
have that one of my mother and her
driver. So that will do. That's my dad in
the middle you can see nobody wants to
be with him in this photograph either.
Ah well. And that's my mother being glamourous. This is known the end of the war,
this is 1945. That is my big sister,
you're going to meet my big sister again
very soon. By the time personal cameras
came about, that terrified ghost in the
corner there, that terrified child is me
wondering what a camera is. You can tell
one has been pointed at me because the
only way you got a good picture was to
get into RV Morris at the end of the
road who was right next to the to the
greengrocers and you could get your photograph taken in there. You can tell he's not
used to photographing kids so I appear
to be setting on his carpet. Nothing comfy
there. The one in the middle was what
they took when they got home, this is my
mother and father, much older than the
average, my mother was 43 when she had
me. and I in her own word she said 'if I
kenned you were coming things would have been different.'
darkly. So there I am, arrived, knowing my
luck, somehow, sitting on a wee chair and
that person over there is my Dad.
In the other one things seem to have
moved on bizarrely. I'm now one-year-old
and even more skeptical than I was in
the baby photograph and behind me that
lady is my auntie or at least it's my
mother's brother's wife she was a black
London girl who met my uncle Tommy and
the two of them really were a fantastic
couple they were wonderful together but
the one baby they had and had all sorts
of illnesses that's him
there, he died at the age of three, the wee 
baby who's behind us, and that is my
granny's front and when I look at these
I'm trying to think what is it people
enjoy about old photographs. What I see in these is a kind of fear. There's a kind of
terror, there's a kind of 'something bad's
gonna happen any minute' and here it is
still waiting to happen. These are all me
that is me at a wedding and if any of you
remember, oh my goodness,
any of you remember of those kinds of
weddings where you got handed a shiny, if
you were a wee girl, you got handed a
shiny horseshoe, you can probably just
see the edge of the horseshoe there, and
the bride takes it from you. I'm having
none of the brides taking it from me. I'm
holding on to it for grim death but I
mean again terrified by the lens. There
was something that scared me very much. That one in the middle is just bizarre
that is me in the painted Alps of Ardrossan with a different photographer
because that was prestigious in those
days, apparently. The pigeon is dead! I
tried to stroke it and it fell off and
the guy came back up and sellotaped it
on there. I find nothing reassuring
it at this photograph either is supposed
to be things of joy and look at the
state of me and that last one, that last
one is tragic. I'm not entirely sure I
think I'm cold and in my memory I
saw that as a field, it was a
never-ending field and later in life I
think that my mother, when she was in her
mid fifties, she explained to me it
wasn't a big field it was
granny's front green. That's why it's
all covered in rubbish because it was a
chip shop next to my granny's and people
used to chuck thier empty bits of chip
wrappings in there. there's something
terrifying me there too I can't explain
this apart from family life and here it
comes
that's me at age of five that's my
mother getting much older and that that
lady that remember the rain you saw
before this is that lady grown up and my
goodness how grown-up she is my sister
Nora me and my mum in that picture our
ORD enough but ladies and gentlemen do
have a look at the surroundings do have
a look at the fag bun and the thing
sitting at the edge of the sofa well
we're trying to look sophisticated do
have a look at the wallpaper that was
all round every wall that was why we
like the telly so much it was something
else
to look at you can see there's a whole
pile of junk in the corner and someone
has put something on the carpet under
her feet I presume we have done that
because the guy who was taking the
photographs do you see how the line up
there of the of the carpet just suddenly
stops oh sorry do it again the line of
the carpet just suddenly stops and what
you're seeing is what's underneath the
carpet there and I think that's because
the photographer being an unknown
quantity was not trusted to stand on our
carpet and leave it intact these were
tough times folks these were difficult
times and this bloke who came round
all I remember amaz to this day is a
flash in the corner and we almost paid
no attention to him he didn't speak
throughout the entire ordeal but my
sister decided to use it as a foot of
opportunity and that's my sister in her
best frock and it almost makes me weep
looking at that I didn't like her very
much
she was handy she would hit something
before she would ask a question and she
was like that for a whole variety of
reasons which I don't need to go into
you'll just have to take my word for it
there is a woman dressed up to the nines
looking traumatized look at her face
look at her ankles where the hair was
that happened I have two possible
suggestions there was a dance place
called the Bobby Jones in ear and people
danced hard in those days and either
somebody has booted her shins into
pieces or it was one of the chaps who
offered to work at home and in fact
didn't walk her home
my sister was raped at least four times
coming back from the Bobby Jordan's and
I don't actually know if that's some
kind of proof but the face has its own
story the hands very tightly together
have their own story and those heels
every time I look at them I wish I'd had
the nose when I was we just to see what
happened to you but she'd probably have
hit me so didn't and those three of us
in the photograph you saw before because
it says so much those faces see so much
I wanted on the cover of a book called
this is not about me as far as I was
concerned it wasn't about me it was
about my family can you tell me how much
time I have left still think okay 20
minutes really okay yeah one of the
things that was so shocking about
looking back at these as an adult was
the at the time I thought these pictures
were sophisticated I thought a
photographer has come around to hosts
and Luke but - I thought that was
sophisticated when I was about 17 you
think I would have known better but for
some reason it didn't percolate for some
reason we did not look at the bruises on
nourishing
we did not look at the fact that my
mother has very badly fitting false
teeth in that picture and it's having to
wear slippers because she doesn't have a
beer issues but she doesn't have to keep
nice for what when she goes outside and
Nora is wearing there was bizarre dress
I think I've ever seen but that's are
dolled up to the nines just to be in the
house for a man with a camera it didn't
strike me that that's booked something
about insecurity and something about
class at the time it certainly does know
and that endless photos of us mostly
seeing nothing very much at all I have
no idea of my a pair of knickers is
hanging behind my mother but I know it
is it's the problem with amateur
photographers you see I don't know who
do that at all I know that's me sitting
my mother
the Turkish Lucas thought and we've just
been rescued from a horrible ordeal it's
terrifying no photograph I'm glad to my
mother didn't like it and the fact that
she threw it away was what enabled me to
have it there and I appeared to be
sitting on her knee at the tender age of
seven I can't explain that photograph
much either but one underneath there are
three people that's my father and his
two sisters and me meeting him he was
dying and I hadn't seen him for a number
of years about two years three years and
my sister thought I should meet him and
that's me meeting him nobody looks very
thrilled
do they it's a very serious dark kind of
a photograph somehow I couldn't even
tell you where we where it appears to be
in the middle of a field far far away
from human habitation I'm not sure where
we are in the photograph I'm not sure
what the purpose of it was other than I
would get the chance to meet my dad and
that's him in the middle not standing up
very well
the story behind photographs usually
chose me partly because it seems to be
part of my family's history and what
they do this one in the middle was the
first time I ever got my hair cut after
you see the one mothers
sitting with my mum that was the first
time I got a haircut this is a second
time it got me here to cut and I appear
to be wearing slim jeans over in there
the one in the top colored my goodness
had we lived so long I'm sorry about the
skirt they were fashionable at the time
and if you bought them that color they
were cheap so that is the reason I'm
wearing that covered nice orange here
and that is my mother looking her
sophisticated best open the guard and
what's behind us there that social
housing behind us and I'm sorry you
can't see the potatoes because that is
what we actually have in that garden
beside you could ask that would make us
look industrious and that's me showing
off with my motorbike my boyfriend took
this photograph and then asked for a
short my bait now we didn't give him
once he was not my boyfriend
soon after this photograph was taken and
that was Mira my bike and look again do
you see anybody who's looking thrilled
with life my mother's given her a best
shot
but it's not very convincing finally we
got there this was some years later the
tall lady in the pink dress is me the
man tolling above my two tiny uncle's is
my boyfriend the two tiny uncles are
just doing Frattini Uncle Stu one of the
tiny uncles his wife is right make sure
you see that smiling women in the middle
that's my sister
and I keep this photograph too sure she
could do that she could dress up and go
out without man pleasing without danger
without anything bad happening to her
and go to a wedding and not even I mean
she would insult people but that was
just Nora you know but she would have a
good time and what I remember about that
wedding in particular is that my sister
for the first time in her life danced
with me I am 23 in that picture my
sister there will be heading towards her
50s and looking glamorous and the bride
is wearing yellow
nobody really cared much little braids
in my family we just went to have a
photograph taken and here we are having
it my mother so we scuttled up the back
with yet another tiny man looking over
her shoulder there were many tiny man
men in the family and that for some
reason as a picture of all the ones I've
shown you it was the only one I could
find that was in any way kind of
carefully and anyways sort of Julia and
some of the others I think one of the
things that families do is yes they do
try to take photographs of each other
when they are showing at their best but
sometimes they show their best would get
the chance to do it so infrequently that
you get what you get you will get my
mother looking at least ten years older
than she is shortly getting a new teeth
with me sitting on a lap helplessly like
a strange out-of-place ventriloquist
dummy that those clumsy Cana pictures
are what I remember from childhood and I
think a lot of people who came from poor
backgrounds did have those kind of
experiences so when you went to
something like this you dolled up to the
nines too sure you could do it this was
you in your weekend strut your stuff
clothing and that's still a favorite I
have no idea who that little girl is
though near but she looks like such a
different kind of little girl she's up
the hen sir she's not particularly
smiley but all she's doing is keeping
the Sun out of her eyes I'm gonna think
about pictures of me as a child are the
ones of Nora a child as a child which
would even was something must have been
happening right socially something must
have been happening out there in the
ether that made families maybe feel a
bit more coherent a bit more like people
who could work together and be together
and enjoy each other knowing then all of
those people apart from the little girl
I presume and me and the young man I'm
with are no dead and I think I'm at that
stage in life where I was a late baby it
was my mother was 40
five when she had me I have already told
you that if I can't you becoming mrs.
story you're gonna it's extraordinary
just to look at these and think more
than anything else about fleetingness
and I think in our family that's what
photographs Olbers where you didn't
expect people to be around long what's
the main one Mainers - didn't last very
long even if they came out the main
alive most of the women were domestic
servants and look at this this is the
70s don't let anybody tell you it was
all crap look at this the extraordinary
thing that seems to have happened there
is that people have found access to be
different to that which once they
believed they had to be for a lifetime I
am a fervent believer that life is
getting better I know Donald Trump is
there I'm not daft but Donald Trump is
about to be impeached if we all think
that hard
it will happen that's the thing you have
to do because most of it most of it is
still coming together we are about to
have all sorts of problems to do with
the environment and stuff and that's
what I feel my photographs will then
have a kind of meaning all their own but
when I was asked to send one end to the
magazine it was very hard to choose
because a lot of my photographs as I see
I don't have people in them and they're
not photographs done by someone who has
had any training and taking photographs
I've done my own learning process but
what I wanted to do was pick that one
and I guess if you want to see it
properly you'll need to look out there
but the only thing that I've taken
pictures of that I feel out of huge
value are baby pictures of my son that's
him at I think 17 months running you
know that way we boys do just run for
movies whatsoever and that's and running
for no reason
at a place called money AK water in
Highlands where I was trying to teach
people to write novels and I was so
bored I'm holy shit it's just magic the
absolute thrill of having a mini
surroundings he'd never been anywhere
like it in his life and I ran and ran
and ran and then he fell asleep and I
have one more picture of him I sleep I'm
holding him up trying to fit him into my
friends car who actually brought him to
the in the in the first place but I was
only asked for one foot to get off and
I'm terribly well-behaved I just I just
gave one photograph the other one is
actually my my paper fever all of them
and the reason why I took so many
photographs I think was because it was a
family habit and I know have enormous
sets of photos I'm unlikely ever much to
look at but what I'm doing is weeding
them down to the precious I'm allowed
five put box when there's something like
a hundred in every Bowl you can do it
folks if I can do it
you can stir yourself it's wonderful
throwing old photographs away don't
button them that's kind of creepy but do
you throw them away securely in a bin
bag to make sure the press don't get
them and live with just that handful
because I only have this handful really
that are all neighbor another three or
four I only have this handful and it
seems to me to say almost everything
there is to see about the family I
remember and the family that I wouldn't
remember in quite the same way at all if
those photographs did not exist I think
it's important the habit of family
photographs is dying out young people
don't do it
they take selfies all the time but then
they throw the whole lot away or they
empty the phone out and they take a
whole new bundle of selfies so if I'm
reggaeton is on its way that'll be a
very sore lesson to be learned about the
value of something that you can take
with you something you can carry and I
still do feel you know in a presumably a
kind of sentimental way but it just
feels like common sense that these are
my memento mori like the family in the
very first picture who wanted a snap of
themselves just in case any of them went
missing in case any of them got lost
most of these people are lost I still
know where the boyfriend lives he's been
married three times
he'snot not married again so just watch
this space so all I have to say about
photographs of the time being me I hand
it over to you to ask a few questions
should you wish
yeah well as Janet says we're not
opening up to questions so there's a
couple of roving mics I think Pete's
gonna take one maybe just work with what
has anybody got got a question they
would like to to present to to Jonas
there's right the way back yeah what do
you hi that's fantastic thank you
would you consider chopping people out
of your photos to put them and making a
collage of all the people that you might
want to take from all the photos you're
throwing away it would kind of defeat
the purpose of throwing them away you
wouldn't say I'm really looking forward
to throwing them away
and I come from a come from a generation
with too much junk that my mother kept
everything my mother kept in melanda the
thing that the Malanda bread was wrapped
up in you used to get folded she tried
to iron it once that was when she found
out his proof recording on earth she
used to keep everything because she
never knew where never got a picture of
her few Bob she just kept everything and
cleaning the place out once my mother
had departed was just kind of
nightmarish we just had to throw
everything out anything we may have
wanted to keep there was no point even
in looking there was too much stuff so
the whole lot went so I seemed to be
adequately trained somehow and throwing
things out very obediently and not
really once they're gone they're gone
the important things you retain any way
up to a certain age my memory has
stopped to get clear but I forgot what
my second name was yesterday which is a
new one
and I don't know I don't in my married
name I mean my name name the name of Bob
has been partly because I was talking to
someone on the phone and I forgot who to
spell it and then and then I forgot the
name but by and large I'm happy with
what I retain as enough I don't think
there's much room to retain much else
why'd you do that would you cut people
out of pictures and put them at home
project with my mom and she's had a
stroke and there were bits of this year
this there's a lot the photo so I was
just chopping out and then telling you
know she married my dad and then she had
the children I'm just doing it as a sort
of a collage really but she knew
everybody and that's like that's a whole
different thing that that has a genuine
therapeutic use you know you can use
that for something and I'm very pleased
that you you you talked about it because
it is something to remember I am the
couple who ste just in the next-door
house to us the mother in that family is
suffering very badly from dementia and
she's been wondering what she can do and
you've just given me a gift that I can
pass her in town I can tell it about
this that's fantastic
Jess I've seen fantastic my granny by
the way once my parents got divorced you
went through all the family photographs
and coke dad it can't happen
I wondered one of the many things I
liked about this talk was the things
that reminded me of the family
photographs men were very different
almost always taken by my by my granny
she was the very first person that I
noticed who always took photographs and
of course those photographs as we've
seen here are easily distinguished from
the ones that people take today every
day photographs and family photographs
in that the one person who's not in the
photograph is the person with the camera
my granny extended that distinction to
most people in front in front of the
lens at the film vendors the other week
said that photograph photography is dead
because people just take all these
photographs with their cell phones and
don't look at them and I wondered I mean
dude I wonder what you thought about
that whether you think everyday
photography and family photography is
dead just because people look at the
take the pictures and then that's it do
you think there's a it lost their eye
I think it's losing it that the whole
that it ones
because as you see people now have
phones the canticle specters and the
ears with which you can do it I can't do
it with these because I have a cheap
mobile phone and it's not very good at
doing that kind of thing but and the
ease with which people can do it tends
to make what they produce throw away you
know it just happens all the time or
they take lots and lots of pictures not
necessarily kidding what they're taking
pictures of my son I think when he was
about four years ago I'd be 20 and went
to a party and said that the best thing
to do a lot of the men at the party a
lot with the boys at the party or just
taking pictures of everything in case
they got so drunk they forgot who'd been
there kind of thing they were just
taking pictures of everything it was a
sort of catalogue I think photographs
that are kind of different I don't even
know if they Harper use snowy deeds that
a kind of thing you do with your phone I
don't actually know if they have a set
function but I know for a fact I'm
absolutely sure that there are people
who just love photographs for what they
are people like yourself you know who
will take a photograph for the
photographs sake it'll take several to
try and get the best out of a bunch who
are not trying to say something about
who they were out with or who they went
out with or what the weather was like
what they're trying to do is see
something if you like
sutler about something that lasted for a
second and then was gone and when you do
that kind of thinking when you're taking
a photograph when you when you take a
photograph votive if I don't snap this I
may well not remember it and that is
something very something about it that
makes me want to have the option of
remembering it you don't necessarily
know what it is straight away I think
one can stockpile photographs you can
keep lots of photographs but eventually
as we were saying to each other
eventually there comes a time where you
realize not all of the men a great deal
and there's a kind of sentimentalism
that you should not gonna hear to
actually get through to what the art
might be in what you've got but the
feelings might be in what you've got and
I'm just just having one picture left of
your mum it can be far more important
than having hundreds and hundreds which
II don't look like a
don't do it any favors and see just you
have to we enter through to the point
but you don't look at any of them
his answer the question hello Janice I
need help
about a photograph and you reminded me
of the occasion in your talk which I
have to say it's better value than many
of the fringe things up into this the
street thank you very much we too had a
local photographer come around and take
photographs probably of the family but
only one I think was ever kept and it
was me looking very very grumpy because
I did not want my photograph taken I
must have been four or five either we
killed kilt on photograph it was framed
in colour parents had it parents of
course are long gone but the photograph
has stayed with me in its frame for 65
years it's now in the bottom of a box
and when I go somebody will come across
it probably realize it's me but I'm
wondering what should I do with this
photograph now is there anything I
should do with it it's there but your
name in the back so they'd know for sure
is you don't leave them guessing put
your name in the back of it put the date
you put your name in the back of it
the other photograph have got from that
time but I don't have the photograph for
soon don't to see the American fleet and
Largs
early 50s before you were born a huge
thing all the American warships
I often the be now Americans saw
American sailor stopped my parents and
asked if he could take a photograph of
this wee boy wearing a kilt and
apparently I was told that I smiled and
I often wonder if that photograph
survived anywhere
however enough you would track it down I
have no idea but it makes such a good
story it doesn't matter a lot much
because you're half the other one but
whatever I mean it says something that
you've held on to it you have kept it
under the mansion in Google and have it
the photograph that's healthy you you're
bound to know someone who will love that
photograph and it's not for you to know
who is it may surprise you
what are you able to come back and find
out who it is that does inherit it but
it doesn't actually matter because then
it becomes a photograph that belongs to
just the kind of family of people
looking at images of people and seeing
aren't we strange I think that's one of
the most useful thing you can do with
photographs you can reassure yourself
that you're a lot more normal than you
sometimes come across you know yeah
everyone I am in one of my favorite
books apart from Hills the by Burchard
in the seventh man he talks about
photographs as being essentially about
an absence and actually not important in
themselves so he's looking at the things
that if you are a migrant you carry in
some deep and secret place you don't
mind whether it gets folded and because
really it's the kind of work you do with
that photograph that really matters and
I felt this through it I had to write
down that bit about the curved about I
knew these things were made of dead
things hmm you know so much that is dead
but there's so much you can make live
and I felt that about your book this is
not about me
that the photograph is not about you but
what you say about it what you weave
around it and that wonderful language is
very much about you and I just wondered
you know did were you influenced by that
that Bircher issue and the times when he
was writing about photographs and
writing and absence in in some way yes
because every every book you encounter
part of it is stuck someplace
some atoms of your mind and what is left
of your mind as you grew older well hold
on to that that information and bring it
out when it's required and what your
head is brought out know to initiate
this conversation is something that you
don't necessarily know is about to come
to your assistance or to clarify
something for you but it will just be
there I think that one of the most
exciting things about photographs is as
Edie memoir there are more things that
would vanish if we didn't have the snaps
I've got all my school pictures
I literally brought them because of my
lack of family ones but some of the
people I was at school with might have
Tom Dobb
I'm not been very thrilled by it but
just that real looks so bizarre because
we had a weird we on have another
photograph stick and it's some of us of
the age we might be really cool about it
and what we just look at we just look
spoiled you know invent in those ones
there is just something and inevitably
some people who have their eyes are shut
and they're always in the front row the
people with their eyes shut there are
inevitably people who have one sock
fallen down and the other one up and it
kind of takes you away back into the
tangibility of that thing how many of
you have school photos oh my god
look at that how many of you do and was
that a choice I was that just how things
fair load really flew in about or did
you through the I see you're amazing the
bad memories of school I hated a lot of
school but I kept the pictures god knows
what that says about me you know I
wanted to remember something and I
suppose if if you there are memory
people it's an interesting answer
because there are memory people are
people who want to remember things
whether they were good bad or
indifferent they just want to remember
you know the kind of person who will say
no that was I think that happened in
1944 actually see the more I think about
it was probably about me they thought
maybe may the force living in
you know and it sits there like like a
record and always will be I think I'm
not as bad as that column but I think
I'm one of these people who doesn't
intend to I wish to retain things
because you can't lose the photos again
this poor lady who lives next door
suffered the hosts fire before she moved
to to where she's living now and all her
photographs got lost I'd actually be
quite I think I'd be quite heartbroken
I'm probably stronger than that but I
think I'd be I think I'd feel the loss
if I lost all my photographs that is
something very important about them
staying as not-quite surrogate people
but facts of when you were last with
certain people and he spoke about
Microsoft developing I kind of well what
first spoke about was the idea that we
were approaching this can a catastrophe
because of the digital revolution all
photographs exists as digital files and
not as physical objects these physical
objects being images on pieces of paper
a and their idea was they were looking
at all kinds of different ways of
somehow preserving the idea of the
photograph as of physical objects one of
the idea they had was to make a Cana
basically I kind of hard disk drive but
it would be in a nice wooden box that
thought could set on the mantelpiece the
idea being there be a physical object
but of course as it stands at the moment
everybody now carries a phone about
Maxim how they access their photographs
and maybe that's why the selfie is what
is I don't know I just wondered about
that can a physicality hit with a
photograph yeah I thought I think that's
why they are so and I think what you're
seeing is that's probably why they are
so disposable they don't act there not
tangible yeah they just kind of exist in
the ether and there's I'm absolutely
sure that there is a kind of young
person who
leaves absolutely and utterly that if
you lose your your phone you can somehow
magic the photos back in when you get a
new one you know that there must be a
ways somehow that these things are
everlasting and forever and because you
snapped them they must be within the
corpus of the phone um I I don't
actually know how young people do regard
photographs or if your people bother to
have an opinion about what photographs
are I think I think you start thinking
about what the function of them might be
as an older person especially when you
have family there's a couple more
questions just to make sure this there's
one shot there yeah all right the
thought occurred to me as you're talking
about making rash decisions of
destroying photographs you can never
retrieve particularly you know at a
particular age you might bitterly regret
having done that I suppose you've got
the fallback position now of digitalized
in things whether it's a photo book or
sending them to your yahoo account so
they do exist so you can destroy what
you've got but you've got a backstop
position to retrieve something you have
a backstop position as long as the
internet exists yes but but it's a
variable beat another one just in the
middle
it's coming back to the physicality of
photographs
I love photograph albums so I inherited
one for my grandmother of my
great-grandfather which is wonderful and
I've made lots and lots of albums of our
family as they've grown up and now I've
got several shelves and I've run out of
shelf space I've stopped making physical
albums and then I think what am I gonna
do with them when I'm not here anymore
whoo well you know we've got four kids
how are we gonna divide them up or we
just they just it's sort of something
that vaguely troubles me I don't want
the kids to because I only got one from
my mother and it made life very simple
you know what does one do there are
wonderful things and you can show the
kids what they look like when they were
two well each of your children can dance
although in the 30s now thirties and
they're still seeing did I look like
that yeah we got the pictures of my
daughter out when she was born so I
think it's it's I think you're right
that the physicality is hugely important
but just as having things on the
internet that disappear making albums
creates a problem as what you do with it
well it's a different it is a different
sort of problem and it's it's Sam I
guess it's kind of micro problem because
again my mother's wisdom was absolute
and complete she wouldn't write a role
because she thought I don't bloody care
to David I'm did you know you don't
really kind of like the kind of
gentleman who did but it's necessarily
going to rush towards that as a solution
but certainly you won't be there and
they will sort something out of that and
if you have did you say you had four
books although shelves Lords well in
that case I would strongly advise them
were they to come my way pick it pick
out every fourth book
I don't see what else you can do because
you can Audion stuff if you know you can
have too much stuff I'm I'm a I'm an
investor that throw it away at her
because I've been so many house moves in
my life and it just makes things
difficult have you stayed in the one
house for a long time yeah I just wanted
to say two things I actually did read an
article by the court in which said that
photographs have become so important
that after saving family pets from a
fire you'd actually save the photographs
mm-hmm and I wanted to ask as a as a
writer or somebody writing from
photographs and reading books that have
not been written from photographs but
from imagination do you find yourself
did you find like a change in the kind
of vocabulary that you're using like you
know using scientific terms or even kind
of a photographic vocabulary no because
if even in the in the act of writing if
you are describing a photograph would
you try to use photographic terminology
does it happen automatically because
I've read some works of authors that
have written from photographs as well
uh-huh and they just automatically tend
to use this kind of terminology like
well for cut different focus focus
extraordinary different and it would
never occur to me the that's an older
copy this is not about me the family
picture on the front of this is not
about me
I looked up very hard and the first
three pages that's something I made to
do tonight was actually read that oh
what it's owns our photograph in
warrants actually sounds like and in
many ways there's a lot more play with a
photograph in warrants
you can alert to things don't you and
the most important thing to do is allow
people the space to make it into
something they can see because if you
try too hard to make them see exactly
the thing that you're seeing right now
you're you're enacting a kind of force
upon them that doesn't allow their
imagination to catch fire and that's the
only way they will hold the image that
you have tried to make because they have
made it one they can see you probably
know that sooner from friends who
perhaps read a book and then you read it
and they say what um what do you think X
looked like in the book what do you
think that person looked like don't
answer because the other person that you
explain who you think they look like
will see that's not what they look like
at all this is what they look like they
will recreate the thing and one of the
beauties I think all photographs is that
there is a certain amount of recreation
that you do to it you will make a person
look no blow if that is the bent of mind
you have while you're looking at it you
will make a person look more trivial you
will make a person look more fragile you
you actually bring you to the
interpretation of the photograph so I
don't think I think it'd be highly
unlikely that I would use photographic
words and what Auden may have been doing
you can write anything is to use a
language that is not a spoken language
to try and imply distance in other words
it's not what would trip off the tongue
you're looking at something and seeing
it as an object you're not seeing it as
the people inside it I'm one of these
people who has to see the people inside
the photograph the object doesn't
interest me very much except that it has
these pictures on it that's the beauty
of it your son's just dawned on me and
digitized the photographs you could make
them digital albums which is but not
what as well as the other ones
No haha okay okay everybody like that
that's a great idea I'm gonna do it
myself but it's only getting one but
yeah yeah I mean there's the reiterated
uses language is usually for different
purposes if you're actually trying to
describe what send the photo I be very
surprised if you would resort to
photographic terminology because you'd
use of it is likely to be much wobbly
other than it should be in checking up
on that kind of thing before you start
writing is often too much of a bind for
a lot of people so they escape it and
the other thing is that it takes them
away from the fact that what you're
doing is creating something and the best
act of creation also admit an act of
creation to the person who is receiving
that act of creation whether it's a
photograph whether it's a novel and
everybody's idea of what the people look
like is different everybody's idea of
what is happening in the picture or what
the tensions are in the picture are
different and that's human nature that
is what we do we accept the self upon
the object it's well josh is taking us
on an amazing journey but I know that
there is a drinks reception waiting for
all of you and I'm sure Janice could do
with a refreshment but before before we
give Janice a big clap as well again
remind you her article is in studies
it's a wonderful piece Janice so I think
they should definitely snap it up as
they say and obviously her book as well
outside so can I ask you all to yeah put
your hands together for Janice go
