- [Voiceover] Good evening everyone,
I am Virginia Shih,
chair of the University
Library's Free Speech Movement,
Cafe Programs Committee.
Welcome everyone to our first Free Speech
Movement public event in Spring 2016.
Thank you very much for your attendance.
I would like to thank
everyone on the FSM committee,
who helped me to put together this event.
Without further ado I would
like to turn the podium,
to Professor Penny Edwards
from the Department of,
South and Southeast Asian Studies,
who will introduce our
speaker and discussion,
and facilitate the
program for the evening.
Thank you very much.
(applause)
- [Voiceover] So I would like
to welcome everybody here,
this evening.
And I'd like to start before I
introduce tonight's speakers,
by offering a special vote
of thanks to Virginia Shih,
for all she has done through
her energy and dedication,
to the study and collection
of South East Asian language,
materials and specifically I should add,
that if you don't already know
Virginia Shih is the chief,
South East Asian Librarian
here at UC Berkeley,
but specifically for
really being the catalyst,
for tonight's event, I had long planned,
well I should say, for
the last nine months,
planned to bring Mr.
Kyaw Zwa Moe from Burma,
but I did not, I wasn't
able to pull together,
sufficient funds and
Virginia mentioned to me,
the Free Speech Movement
educational program,
and it was such a perfect fit.
I'd like to thank her and her
colleagues on the library,
FSM educational program library committee,
who are here tonight, thank you so much.
And I'd like to give Virginia
a bouquet of flowers,
in appreciation.
(applause)
I'm just going to say a few words about,
Mr. Kyaw Zwa Moe,
and then I'm going to say a
few words by way of entry,
into tonight's event.
So Mr. Kyaw Zwa Moe is the founder,
sorry he is not the founder,
I got that wrong, that
was from an early draft,
yes you are not, I stand corrected.
He is the Chief English Language
Editor of The Irrawaddy,
which has become one of the
prominent media outlets,
and windows on knowledge
and fresh information,
and a beacon of investigative
journalism in the region.
Mr. Kyaw Zwa Moe will be
speaking from his own,
personal experiences to
his role as a journalist,
in speaking truth to power
in Burma under various regimes,
and from various locations.
I will very briefly
introduce Mr. Min Shin who,
who like Kyaw Zwa Moe will
be known to many of you here,
in the audience, especially
those from the Burmese,
community and scholars of Burma,
who is a PhD candidate in the Department,
of Political Science here at Berkeley,
and will be acting as a discussant.
And I will quickly say,
thank you to other sponsors,
including the Center for Human Rights,
the Peace and Conflicts Studies Program,
the Center for Buddhist Studies,
and the Freshman Seminar Program.
"It is not power that corrupts but fear",
wrote Nobel Laureate's
Burmese opposition leader,
Aung San Suu Kyi.
"Not only does by our fear
stifle and slowly destroy,
"all sense of right and wrong,
"it so often lies at the root
of other kinds of corruption."
she wrote.
"It is not easy for a
people conditioned by fear,
"under the iron rule of the
principle that might is right,
"to free themselves from the
enervating miasma of fear.
"Yet even under the most
crushing state machinery,
"courage rises up again and again,
"for fear is not in the natural
state of civilized man."
With these words I'm
delighted to move into,
the second stage of this
evening by focusing on,
the quality of courage,
moral, physical and political,
as well as the vision and integrity
shared by so many,
of what are collectively
known as the 88 generation,
and activist and opposition
members who've stood up to the,
military regime in Burma
and exemplified by both,
Mr. Zwa Moe and Mr. Min
Shin who are here tonight.
If as Václav Havel wrote,
"the specter of dissent does
not appear out of thin air,
"then the air on which that
specter breaths is courage,
"and language is its weapon."
I am proud to work, teach,
and learn at UC Berkeley,
in the department of South
and Southeast Asian Studies,
where we teach 13 different languages,
of South and Southeast Asia.
Including since last fall,
for the first time in our history,
and thanks to Title Six funding,
channeled through the center
of Southeast Asian Studies,
Burmese, so big shout
out to Mr. Kenneth Wong,
our first Burmese language lecturer,
who's also in the audience.
(applause)
It was on a trip to Burma last May,
to research and gather teaching materials,
for my Southeast Asia 10a class,
that I met Mr. Kyaw Zwa Moe
Our mutual friend, Burmese activist,
Dr. Maginmamagi had connected us,
and she had suggested that
it might be interesting,
for Mr. Zwa Moe to interview
me about my research.
So we were three minutes into the meeting,
and Kyaw said to me,
"aren't I meant to interviewing you",
and I'm like "well you're
much more interesting.
"I mean look at everything you've done,
"and your experiences,
"and you spent 8 years
as a political prisoner.
"And you're able to
write about things like,
"and contextualize that" for example,
Saya San one of Burma's most
famous resistance leaders,
under colonial rule, that
his image is in the prison,
and it was so interesting.
And then Kyaw Zwa gave me
several articles he'd written,
about the prison as a
space to write and reflect.
And I used some of these
materials teaching,
my South East Asia 10A course last fall,
and will be using them again.
And so one of his articles that I taught,
I'm just going to plug the
Irrawaddy journal here.
The Cell, it was called The Cell,
I'm only going to, I don't want
to steal Kyaw Zwa's thunder,
I'm just going to read out one line.
"If Burmese prisons are
universities for political,
prisoners who yearn to
learn then the cells,
are the classrooms," he wrote,
and I'm hoping that he
will expand on that,
in his talk tonight, and
with that I'd like to
turn the floor over to Mr. Kyaw Zwa Moe
who will speak for 40 minutes,
and then Mr. Min Shin will
have a 10 minute discussion,
period and then there
will be open Q and A,
from the audience.
Thank you.
(applause)
- [Voiceover] Hello?
Hello everyone.
Thank you for having me here.
Especially Penny and Miss Virginia Shih,
to organize everything for me to be here.
Actually Berkeley is
not, sorry for my voice,
the weather is different now,
so I get a little bit different voice,
and strange voice in my throat.
Berkeley is not a strange place for me,
it is very nice to be back here.
In 2005 and 2006 I was a visiting scholar,
at the great U A School of
the Journalism at North Gate.
So I spent a year here, so
it is really really nice,
to be back here and to
feel this nice weather.
So I'm happy to be back here,
thank you for inviting me here.
40 minutes is pretty long,
(laughing)
I never talk that much.
I think this is quite informal
maybe talks and discussions.
So whatever you want to know,
you can stop me, and raise your hand and,
then you can ask any questions.
Now I'm journalist as Penny said,
and in the past, Min Shin and I were,
on the streets in 1988,
28 years back, together.
And the pro democracy uprising
happened in our country.
We were just high school students,
and he was a leader of the
student union,
while I was a leader of
another student union,
and we sometimes
organized a demonstration,
against the time bomb Socialist Region.
And we organized many
demonstrations at the time.
But I think the last time
when we met was in Burma,
in 1990 July.
And then we organized a
demonstration on the streets,
and then, at the time the military troops
and raided our groups.
And then we were disposed,
and then we ran away in
different directions.
And since then we never met again,
15 years.
I was put in jail, and
then he went into hiding.
So that was the life we started in 1988.
But now recently, after the
National League for Democracy,
won by a land slide in November last year,
I went to the Naypyidaw,
especially in past February of this year,
I went to the Naypyidaw,
the capital of Burma
then I met a lot of my inmates there.
Who are now members of parliaments
and who were elected in that election.
And then this is a very happy reunion
and you might now that over 100
former political prisoners, like me,
now members of parliament,
sitting in the parliament
in Burma now.
And these days some of them
are even become the ministers
and chief minister,
and they are my inmates.
And they are also colleagues
of Min Shin's as well.
It is really nice to meet them,
back in the parliament
and I will say that that is kind of
the achievement we have struggled
over the past three decades
and we dreamt, we dreamed
when we were in the prison,
but I'm not saying that this
is the goal we achieved.
I think I can explain about the current
political situation later on
and Min Shin will add more.
So, when I met them,
when I met my inmates in the parliament,
and we recalled how we
struggled in the prison.
How we were tortured in the interrogation
center of the military intelligence units,
and how we killed our time in the cell
and how we started secretly
and in the cell,
because in other time we were not allowed,
especially political
prisoners we are not allowed
to read and write in the cell.
So it was really nice
to see them as members of parliament
representing their communities.
But it is not easy struggle for us.
Back in 1988, as I said earlier
and then we were on the streets
and the in front of us, there were troops
and with machine guns aiming at us.
Sometimes we had to ran away.
It happened many times to us,
but we were lucky, Min Shin
and I were lucky enough
to survive and to be alive and here today.
One of the, one of our colleagues
who were on that day in 1990
and we met again 15
years later in Thailand
and he was a member of the
Student Army called ABSDF.
And then one or two years later,
he passed away because of malaria,
so that is part of
our students
protestors life
and on so
we were high school students
in 1988, I started taking part
in the Pro-Democratic uprising
and then at the time,
my brother, who founded
the Irrawaddy magazine,
outside the country
and left the country because the military
intelligence units
raided our house to look for him
and he escaped.
That was the first time for our house.
And then I kept to my political activities
and then I published one small
secret political journal
and we distributed the
copies of that journal secretly in public
and for three years I was lucky enough,
but in 1991, when Aung San Suu Kyi
won Nobel Peace Prize,
and handfuls of students stayed
at demonstrations in the university campus
and the, I was also arrested in connection
with that demonstration
and then 600 students were put in jail.
Out of the 600 students, 140 students
were sentenced to 10, 15 and 20 years.
I was sentenced to 10 years at the time.
My prime crimes were I took part
in the demonstration, political movement
for three years with commitment.
That's my first crime.
My second crime was I published
that political journal
which is called Away.
And many people like that journal.
So that was my second crime,
that's why I was sentenced to 10 years
by the military tribunal.
So right after that I was put in jail
and the,
I didn't expect that lengthy imprisonment,
because of my peaceful
demonstration on streets.
That's the reason I think
Min Shin went into hiding.
He didn't want to be arrested.
He kept doing the political activities.
So he, I think that he went
into hiding for eight years,
but I spent eight years in prison,
so we are in the different situation,
but is almost together.
So in the prison,
as I said earlier, especially,
political prisoners were not allowed
to read and write, all of the stationary,
a piece of paper, a pen, a pencil,
any kind of book were illegal at the time,
but at the time I'd just passed
my matriculation before my arrest
and was waiting to attend the university,
but because of the
the nation wide demonstration,
all of the colleges and
universities were closed down,
so I was waiting to attend the university.
Instead of going to the university,
I was thrown into a cell
and then I was so keen to learn
whatever I wanted at the time.
I wanted to keep, I
wanted to keep learning,
but the most difficult thing was,
I was not allowed to read.
I was not to have any
piece of paper in cell.
So for the first year,
I tried to kill my time,
in the cell by knitting the shaws
and doing anything else.
But even the knitting the shaw
was illegal in the prison,
but luckily, I managed to knit
three or four shaws
and then I sent them to my mother.
I think, definitely she was happy
and so I tried to kill my time for a year,
and later on,
I was really, really hungry for knowledge,
for learning something in the prison,
because the military regime
and especially the chief of the military
intelligence unit, General Khin Nyunt
tried to kill our brain as well,
and tried to block all of the infomation
into our knowledge.
So that is the main thing,
they tried to keep us,
the political dissidents,
in jail, so that's why they didn't want us
to read anything.
So, over the year I tried to convince,
some of the wardens who were sympathetic
to young students like me
and most of the warden's knew that we
were not criminals and that we fought
for the democracy and that even though
the prison had a very strict rule for them
if they helped a political prisoner,
they can even put in jail back.
So, we tried to convince,
we tried to first of all,
I tried to find the right persons
who wanted to help,
who were really, really sympathetic to us,
and then I get us some people
and then later on, I convince them
to bring the, a piece of paper,
written in English, especially
and you might know that Burmese people
like, chewing betel nut
and so also the wardens
and chew the betel nut
and then Burmese people at the time,
Burmese people used the
newspaper, a piece of newspaper,
written in English, or
Burmese or whatever,
and they wrapped the chewing betel nut
with a paper and then I told that
particular warden who was sympathetic
to me and them, please
try to wrap a paper,
a piece of paper on which English
alphabet or language are written.
Because I wanted to learn
English language at the time.
So, and then, and then later on,
I managed to convince him
and then for the first year,
and then he brought a big,
the betel nut
and with the paper.
Just half of the paper,
but written in the English
and about Ice Barge.
I actually remember, Ice Barge
and three or four paragraphs,
so I started learning that paragraph
and luckily, some of
the political prisoners
in the prison were physicians
and lawyers and then the engineers
and many of them were very, very educated
and they were also
English teachers as well
and they were also
experienced politicians.
So I was one of the youngest ones.
I was 19 years old at the time.
I was one of the youngest,
so I had to approach them,
if I didn't know any meaning or definition
of one word.
So, and then they explained to me,
but unfortunately again,
I didn't have enough time,
because we had just only 15 minutes
and a day to get out of the cell.
We had to spend 23 hours and 45 minutes
in that small cell.
A nine and nine feet cell.
And I heard an inmate in that side,
four or five inmates
and we had to squeeze,
so, anyways some of them, my inmates
and also the political
prisoners in my cell block
were very educated, so
whatever I wanted to know,
about the language, about
the definition of a word,
I had to approach them.
And then I'd get the meaning
and then I'd try to understand,
what that sentence mean.
Something like that.
That's the way I started learning
in the prison.
So later on and then the I managed
to smuggle books like
the Wuthering Heights,
written by the Emily Bronte,
and Great Expectations by Charles Dickens
and the Essay Collection
of the Bertrand Russell
and also Bible, a pocket bible,
a New Testament.
And the pocket dictionary
and the later on, I managed to bring
the Times and Newsweek,
old issues of the Times and Newsweek
magazines as well.
So a difficult thing for me
is I had to find a place
to conceal all of them.
This is very, very difficult for me,
because in the cell, and the cell is empty
and the nothing, we just,
we just had a bamboo mat to sleep on
and then the other
corner there are a couple
of earthen bowls as toilets
and there is no place to hide.
But luckily we found a
small rat hole in my cell
and then we tried to dig in,
but this is very, very
risky and dangerous,
because this is kind of the,
you are breaking the prison,
so I might be sentenced,
we might be sentenced
additional imprisonment,
so we had to be very, very careful.
We had five inmates in my cell,
so that was top secret among us
so we couldn't tell anyone else,
even our political
prisoners in other cells
and we always say that
the wall has ears
so you have to be very careful.
Say nothing if you want to be a secret.
So in that way we tried to enlarge
that small hole and then later on,
I could put almost all of the books I had
and then the I say the biggest,
I would say the biggest batch of books
I kept in the prisons.
So, later on I had to share those books,
to other political prisoners who were
interested in reading and learning
English language as well.
That is how we, I learned
I tried to collect the
books in the prison.
That's why even in this, in this
permeation, in this article
I call it my cell became the library
in the prison.
But it is very dangerous and it is very
time consuming for me to keep them
and to get them out, heavy deal
and so even though we had a lot
of free time in prison
and we weren't free to read
the papers and the books,
so sometimes, it took
maybe a couple of days,
sometimes a week to finish a story,
to finish a one page article,
because we sometimes we had to hide
all of them for a week or two weeks,
because in prison there
are searching groups.
Every morning or every evening
and they come and also search everything.
They confiscate all of the things illegal
including the pen, the
pencil and piece of paper,
a toilet paper and also
sharpened materials,
like a bamboo stick or metal whatever
and even the lighter and many as well.
So we spent all our time to keep them.
Sometimes I was lucky
and then some of the other inmates
were caught with books
and then they were sent to another cell,
where they are put in
solitary confinement.
So, that's the way we
learned in the prison.
So I continued my studies in
the prison like that.
So, I was arrested in 1991, in 1992,
I was sentenced to 10 years
and then the thanks to my mother
who really, really supported me
I could manage to get
everything I wanted in the prison.
Even the food.
And the she could come and meet me
once every two weeks
and she always brought nice food,
home cooked food
and the everything I wanted.
So for the books, I can ask her,
please bring the books
and then drop at that warden house
and then that warden could smuggle
the books into my cell,
but it just it was just until 2014,
because in August,
one day in August,
1994,
she died, because of the car accident
and unfortunately, the
car was the military
vehicle, but it was a coincident,
but even some of my inmates in the prison
thought that that was assassination,
but that was not the case, I understood.
But they talk about it and they kept
that information from me,
because I was young
and I was quite weak at the time
and they know my mother was
alone to me at the time,
because my brother was outside the country
and so she was alone
who kept supporting me
whatever I needed.
So, my friends, my inmates kept that
information from me.
But, later on I found out
and the so
but actually to know,
since I was arrested, I was young,
but since I was arrested,
I expected everything
and expected.
I tried to make myself ready
to face anything and expect it.
So that came in 1994.
That was really, really
a sad moment for me.
That I recall
why I did, why I took to the streets
in front of the machine guns
and why as a young student,
why I tried to topple
the authoritarian government
together with Min Shin and other people
across the country
and why I wanted the
change in this society
and the system
and why at the time,
of course, you know, we wanted to
we wanted the democratic system.
We wanted to get rid of
the authoritarian system,
but that's what I understood at the time.
But in 16 year, when I was 16,
when I was in streets,
In the demonstration when I was 16 and 15,
at the time, actually,
For me, I just wanted to
know the truth.
Another time in 1988 March 13
and a group of the students
and then a group of the civilians
in the Rangoon Institute of Technology,
quarreled and then the
Royal Police came in
and they shot and then the one student
was killed on the spot.
And next morning, another
student was killed.
And then the government at the time,
Burma Socialist Programme Party,
which was led by
(indiscernible) General Win.
Lying to the public and they said
the student was killed by another group
of the civilian people,
but it was not the case and we knew it.
And then we tried to request
our demand, okay, you
the government was responsible,
and to disclose the truth,
that's all we wanted.
And we didn't even know at the time
and to demand for democracy
for the entire society
what we wanted is truth
from the government
and then they formed the investigative,
investigation commission,
but they came out with the same insult,
the same excuse, which is lie.
So at the time when my
mother passed a way,
I recall why I did this one.
Whether I deserve it or not.
Whether it is really fair to me or not.
Because at the time, I lost my mother,
the one I loved most.
So, I recall back and back and back.
But the more I recalled,
I think then I
more dedicated
to my cause.
At the time I knew what the democracy mean
and how useful the democracy would be
to our society, especially
for the authoritarian society
and but at the same
time, the basic thing is
as I said earlier, the truth
is very, very important.
And so,
and then with that in mind,
I tried to overcome my sadness
and within one week, I tried to get back
to my study with discipline.
So, next six years and the I kept doing
what I was supposed to do,
what I wanted to do,
but at the same time only reading
as story, an article in Time magazine,
was a defiance against the regime,
that's what I believed.
With that feeling,
with that understanding
I kept learning in the prison.
So that's why what
this is a long story from
eight years in the prison.
I learned a lot in the prison,
not only the language and also the
articles and political situations
across the country, across the world.
I knew everything even though
I was sitting in prison.
I knew how the Berlin wall fell down
and what happened,
what kind of political situation
between the Russian and the United States
and what happened in the (indiscernible)
So I learned a lot in the prison.
Three or four years
later, I was transferred
to another prison, which was quite remote
so it was more difficult for me
to receive any kind of support
from my house.
My grandmother was alone at the time,
so I kept learning and doing
what I wanted to do in the prison
and when I was released,
I met Aung San Suu Kyi
a couple of times and we discussed
about the political situation,
also that she really wanted to know
the prison condition as well.
I would say I was unlucky.
I was released in September 1999,
and a few months later the NCIC
came into the Burma and they
try to get the deed with
the prison authorities
and then they get the agreement
that the prison authorities
allowed the political
prisoners to read the books,
so I missed that moment.
So, after I was released,
you know the political prisoners
get permission to read books
and even to read a daily newspaper.
So they were lucky after me.
So whatever you know,
because my study in the prison,
I was ready to continue back
to my society, I would say so.
So I was released in 1999
and I met Aung San Suu Kyi
and we discussed about
the political situation
and then she told me
and I still remember that she told me
and she called me,
the H Line Mi Sin, Aung came
to my headquarters quite often.
I don't know who is who in my office
and there are a lot of people
and obviously the headquarters
and they are MIs.
But she came here quite often,
but should be in touch with the
S-One from a distance
and that's what she
said to me the last time
and then a few months later,
she was put under house arrest again.
And then the political
situation became tense again.
So I decided to leave the country.
To be honest, I don't, I didn't want
to be arrested again.
So with that, even with that connection,
with Aung San Suu Kyi,
I might be put in prison back.
Without any reason, the military
intelligence could do at the time,
My grandmother is with me,
so that's why I'm trying to bring
my grandmother to Thailand officially
One year after I was arrested,
it was in 1992,
my brother founded this magazine
and outside the country,
because there was no press freedom
inside the country
and there was no freedom of speech at all
and the military government,
so he fled the country
and he started founding
the Irrawaddy magazine.
And later on Min Shin also joined
as a culture editor over there.
At the time I was still in the prison.
I was not interested in
being the politician,
in being the members of parliment
or minister or whatever,
and I didn't want to aim
I didn't aim to be the journalist either.
When I was in prison at the time.
But, when I went to Thailand,
together with my grandmother,
I happened to join the Irrawaddy
as researcher and I did research a lot,
about the list of the political prisoners
and how many people were killed
during the 1988 uprising.
People say that up to
about 3,000, 4,000 people
were shot down including
the young students.
I did a lot of research,
but later on I studied
writing the news stories
and then I just became the very junior
reporter at the time.
And then I started learning
the journalism as well.
So, soon after I joined the Irrawaddy,
I fell in love with the journalism,
so now, it's 10 years already,
I must stay in this career.
Why I fell in love with the journalism.
I found that the first obligation
of the journalism is
to disclose the truth.
20 years back, on the
street, when we shouted
we want to know what happened
to the person who was killed,
so on the street, what we wanted,
what I wanted was truth.
Just the truth.
So 20 years later in the
Irrawaddy's news room,
when I learned the first obligation
of the journalism is
to disclose the truth,
then I like it a lot, that's why I said
I fell in love with that,
even the first obligation.
The first mission of the journalism.
And then, and then I learned more and more
of the journalism and
then I keep doing that
until now.
Four years later I was invited
to join the graduate school
of the journalism here.
I was lucky and I came here.
And then some of my friends
and also told me after one year,
because you know I was
stateless in Thailand.
I couldn't go back to Burma either.
So, some people, some of my friends
convinced me with
really, really good will,
please try to get asylum
here, than go back there
and I didn't take their suggestion.
I really thank them, but I
didn't take their suggestion,
because I believed that the,
even though I couldn't
be inside the country,
because of the military regime,
the Thailand, which is
a neighbor of Burma,
is a full friend of our
career, our profession because
I think as a jounalist,
I should be very close to the field.
So that's why I went back to Burma,
I went back to Thailand and then
I kept doing my reporting
in the Irrawaddy.
For many years.
So, it was very, very challenging
for a journalist in exile
and Thai government was not
very friendly either.
To the Burmese immigrants in Burma
and the Thai government usually
had a good relationship with
the Burmese government as well.
So if Burmese government, the Generals,
and told the Thai government "Okay,
"these guys are trouble
makers in your country.
"So do something."
And then we got a problem.
So even my brother went
into hiding sometime.
Because the Thai government
tried to look for him.
So sometime he went into hiding.
So that was one of the difficulties
and obstacles of the exile life.
But we managed to report about Burma,
that's why I think the
international community
knows the Irrawaddy very well
and the reason my brother
founded this magazine
was to provide the information to
the international community
and the Burma was totally
blocked at the time.
And nobody knew what
happened inside the country
and of the military regime.
That was the main reason he tried to
form the Irrawaddy magazine.
So with that, mission and
we had kept doing that
and until now.
And as you know in 2011 and 2012,
especially 2011 and won the so called
Civilian Government
and took office and the country's
political situation has
changed a little bit
and then 2012, one year later
and then we get permission
to go back to Burma,
but just for five days.
And I was going there,
I was born in Burma, I
became a Burmese journalist
outside the country, but when they,
when the government,
Thein Sein's government
held a bi-election on April 1st,
2012,
and then we were invited.
So I get permission for five days,
to stay there to cover the election,
but for us it was a change.
It was a big change for us.
That's why I went back there in 2012
for the first time after
15 years in exile life
I wrote about the bi-election,
and then I went back to the Thailand.
So that's how my first trip after 15 years
away from my home
and later on, 2013, we started opening
there a small office inside the country
and then we expanded our office
in Burma,
but still we were at the time,
stayed under the so called
Civilian government.
All of the government members,
ministers were former Generals,
so it was also another challenge for us.
When you write the
stories, when you report,
especially very,
critical issues including the communist
drive, and buddhist
people and muslim people
and also the corruption
so that's another challenge for us,
but that's also another experience
to all of us as journalists.
Burmese journalists, we are
not very friendly to the media,
and that over the past 20, 30 years,
they had no press
conference, almost at all.
But after we went back there and they held
a press conference at sometimes,
but the problem was they didn't provide
any information, they
just said this and that.
Though we couldn't get enough information
to report, to write
the comprehensive story
for our readers to
understand the situation,
So for three years, over
the past three years,
that's what we did.
In Burma, and then so far,
I still need a visa to go back to Burma
and to work in Burma,
I still need a visa,
because information
minister always has to sign
the letter, write the letter to me,
if I want to go back to Burma.
So that's a restriction,
and then because of our critical reporting
and then the our independent stand
and they also force us
to change the spelling
of this name in the Irrawaddy,
seriously, so we spelled
it I-R-R-A-W-A-D-D-Y,
but they wanted us to spell it like the
A-Y-E-E-W-A-D-D-Y, something like that,
like the Burma and Myanmar,
and Yangoo and Rangoon,
so Ayeewaddy and Irrawaddy.
So, but and then that's
because, actually not because of the name,
because they don't like our reporting
even our caricature, our cartoons,
sometimes we published a very funny
caricature of President Thein Sein
and then they call us,
the president's office
called us, you know what, they said,
"You know I'm not
complaining, but personally,
"I don't like your caricature."
The person who was calling me
is the Editor of the President's Office.
(laughing)
Well, what should we do?
And why we don't like it.
That's what they said.
So and then, other reportings as well,
corruption, and the
radical buddhist movement
and then later on and they call us,
they issue the letter, official letter
and saying that you have
to change the spelling,
otherwise, otherwise we will not
allow you to keep publishing the magazine.
Actually three years back,
we kept publishing it from the minister
of the ministries of information
with this spelling, other time,
they just agree and three years later,
then they said, no we gotta agree.
By law, this is illegal
that's what they said.
And then the IN, the group of people
from the Irrawaddy, went to the Naypyidaw
and met three ministers
and the information minister as well
and I told them blindly,
okay, this is our trademark.
We've been 25 years back,
we couldn't change it.
If you really wanted us to change it,
then we will leave the country.
So that's our challenge,
our stand
and the other time,
when I said that we
will leave the country,
then they know the
reputation of the Irrawaddy
and then if we leave,
and this is really bad image for them.
So they are not allowing
the independent media
and there is that.
No, no, no, that's okay.
You can keep it.
But put the Burmese language
in the Burmese journal.
So we also had a Burmese language journal,
that we, the title is the same in English,
so they negotiated, okay, keep this one,
keep this spelling, but put
the Burmese name as well
and then we agree, okay.
Therefore English version,
we didn't put anything.
This is as it is
and then they agree to us.
So, what I want to say is the independent,
the power of the independent media
is very, very important even in
the military so-called military,
so-called Civilian government
so, that's the way we dealt
with the previous government.
Now, from the
first of April,
we've got a civilian government
as I said earlier
and members of parliament,
some members of the parliament
are my inmates
and then some ministers
are my inmates as well.
And then they still have
a state run newspapers,
now we always advocate that we
don't need a state run newspapers
in our country in a democratic society,
but the previous government keep the
state run newspapers
just for the propaganda.
And also now, we get the civilian,
the real civilian government
led by Aung San Suu Kyi, even though
she is not the president,
but she is above the president,
so even though we got
the civilian government,
we still have a state run newspapers.
Principally, we don't need it.
We don't want it.
But now I just told Min Shin yesterday,
on the April 1st,
that those state run
newspapers have changed a lot.
Before, we just read a stories
in line with the government's policies,
now the newspapers
under this civilian government
and published the poems like
the poems of Min Ko Naing,
who was a very prominent student activist
and former political prisoner as well.
And then they also published
a very critical cartoon as well
in their newspaper
and they even wrote an editorial
which calls for the release
of political prisoners
a few days back before
the political prisoners
were released,
so I mean they totally changed
their editorial policy
and the minister is
one of our friends, now
and he's a really, really good writer
and very prominent,
although very good person
actually he's a physician,
but he doesn't practice,
but he just writes the books.
So he is, the minister is also our friend.
But the problem is they
are not independent.
That's what I told the minister.
In the long run, we don't
need a state run newspaper
and we don't need a
ministry of information
and which our pressed,
any kind of publications
over the past four or five decades
there was no freedom of speech at all,
so even now, even under
the civilian government,
we don't need a state run newspaper.
Newspapers and publications
are supposed to be
independent
and to act as watchdog
and to monitor the government
and the parlimentary members
and as was a business set up.
But, we are not in that situation yet.
For the independent
media, I think in Burma
is still very difficult and to survive,
even though it is very, very important,
especially in this transition period.
I don't know what Aung
San Suu Kyi is thinking
of the ministry of information
and state run newspapers at the moment,
but in terms of democratic principles,
in a democratic society, we don't need
that kind of newspaper.
That's also a challenge for independent
journalists like us or independent
media but at the same time I think
the international community is also aware
that even though we got
the real civilian government,
the military is still powerful.
As you know they have 25%
of the parliamentary seats
in all of the parliaments.
In union parliament and also
in regional parliaments.
And then they have three powerful
minister positions in the government,
out of the 21 portfolios.
And then they have a lot
of businesses in Burma.
They have concessions with
the Chinese companies,
so they still have a lot of
power in our country,
even though as people wished,
as people voted for the NLD
and Aung San Suu Kyi led government,
is running the country at the moment,
but this is the situation
is very, very fragile.
We don't know what the commander and chief
of the military is thinking
and at the moment,
because they rule the
country for six decades
and whether they really wanted
to give a way any power, they enjoyed,
so this is the identity we get
that's why I said in the beginning,
it is kind of the achievement for us,
but this is not goal yet
and I think this is a very delicate
and fragile situation in Burma.
As a journalist, as a scholar,
whatever I think we have to continue
to carry out what we have been doing,
especially, to keep this transition
on the right track
and then I think we can gain the goal
probably in the near future,
maybe five years later,
or ten years later.
- [Voiceover] So thank
you so much for that
wonderful talk, which I would like
now to hand over to Min Shin,
for his discussion.
Thank you.
- [Voiceover] Thank you for having me.
Actually, very good to be with you with
Kyaw Zwa again to
as he said we have been
like together since 1988.
I was 14 years old, he was 15 at the time.
We were together on the streets,
staging protests against the basically
military government, even though they
ran the country under another name
of Socialist Party, but so then,
I, he was brought into prison,
he was arrested, he was interrogated,
he was tortured and then he was given
lengthy prison sentence, for me,
military came to my
house, tried to arrest me
and I was not at home, so
they arrested my father.
Since then, I was on the run.
So I was hiding for nearly
nine years inside Burma.
He was locked in the prison
for nearly nine years.
There was, there was kind of,
when we met in Thailand, in Chiang Mai,
there was kind of sorry all you know,
to see each other, we changed a lot,
and a lot of like up and down, you know,
in life, taught us a lot.
And one of our other friends,
we three were quite close in '88,
that guy joined in the struggle
ABSDF, as he mentioned, so we had
three different paths.
One ended in the jail,
the other one I was on the run,
another guy ended in the jungle,
so we three had reunion.
I remember it was really good,
then after a year or two, he passed away
from malaria.
So, I mean, stealing a line from the book,
like Captive Mind,
I would say that we could have wished
that our life had been much more simpler.
Right, than that complicated,
but on the other hand, this kind
of complication and up and down,
taught us a lot.
So on the one hand I wish we could
have had normal life, you know,
to go to school without being interrupted,
without being arrested,
have fun with girls,
you know all these things,
but life being totally disrupted,
because of the situation that we were
born into the society, right,
so when Kyaw Zwa Moe made his talk,
he basically said two things.
One is these things are hard to
make a separation, one is Burmese life,
the other one is Burmese politics
because his life like mine,
since all these teen age,
our life has been pretty much defined
by Burmese political movement.
Our struggle for like, truth
and our struggle for democracy,
the democracy movement.
So, in a way,
when I was hiding, I always thought
of my friends, right who were in prison
and I always thought of my friend
who were in jungle.
Especially like life on the run
is also many of you I believe
read Anne Frank Diarys, right?
When I was hiding, I
read diary of Anne Frank.
I was like wow.
When I was, the first
time I was in Holland,
I visited Anne Frank house.
Say wow, it was really, I don't know,
it's hard to explain what it feels,
to explain how I felt.
Because I read that book again and again
and I visited her place
and so in a way you have a,
how do I explain this,
it's more like shortage of space
and surplus of time.
It's so hard to make sense of your life
in that living in like very cramped
confined place in his case,
being locked by the captor,
in my case, locked by myself,
because I was on the run.
I could not go out
and I could not be with my family members
and friends, so it somehow is so hard
to accommodate ourself,
to be in the situation you
have a shortage of space
and a surplus of time.
That's one of the major challenge.
And another thing, it's like Kyaw Zwa,
I spent almost nine years inside Burma,
then fled to Thai border,
and I became a journalist
and I, and then I was so
I mean all of us wanted to learn,
so I eventually came here and I studied
in the Asian
program and also political science
and when I went back to Burma in 2012,
after initial liberalization
of psuedo-civilian government,
one of the places I wanted
to visit at the time,
was Pain Kan, because even though
I grew up in Burma, I'd
never visited Pain Kan.
Because in before '88, it was so difficult
for a kid growing up in the urban Rangoon,
to have enough resource to
visit this and that place.
So I took my time with my family
to visit Pain Kan, 11 centuries, you know
center of civilization
and there was one particular temple
that fascinated me a lot.
That was Manuha Temple.
Manuha was the king, and
that king was defeated
by the founder of that Pain
Kan civilization, Anawrahta.
So the defeated king was brought from
the south in Burma to again,
center of the country
and he was a prisoner right,
the first political prisoner of the,
our Burman Kingdom.
So when he was in prison,
and he asked permission from the captor,
the victor, I wanted to build a pagoda,
a temple, so that eventually
the permission was granted
yeah, so then he built the Manuha,
his name is Manuha, right, Manuha Temple.
Basically the temple was filled with huge,
four huge Buddha statues.
It was so huge that seemed like enclosed,
there was no room for even Buddha himself.
For the visitors, you barely find
a place to sit and pray.
So, it's basically, the king himself
gave a message being in detention,
being as a prisoner,
how claustrophobic you are.
How being crammed, how being confined,
so he sent this message very clearly
by building this Manuha Temple.
And the Histatugeti, he said it like,
"When I travel through out the samsura,
"cycle of rebirth, I wish I could never be
"the prisoner of another people,
"in the next life."
So when I was there, I felt like
I thought of like many of my friends
who died, who spent in
prison for many years,
I really, really wish you know,
that we would not have this kind
of prisoner of tyrant,
prisoner of dictators,
prisoner of you know, that answer
is really hard to explain,
because sometime people,
when you walk through this prop,
lot of people hand out
pamphlet, leaflet you know,
and but in Burma, under
military government,
you could be arrested for even holding
a sheet of pamphlet produced
by the student union.
It could land you seven
year imprisonment, minimum.
So it was a thing there,
you know, as I said.
On the one hand, I could have wished
I could have had simple
life, more simple life.
But on the other hand, my life.
Our Lives.
Taught us a lot, you know, to get
some kind of a unique
perspective to see life.
So that's something
that we share together,
and never ending, whenever we meet up,
whenever we have a conversation,
we talk about our life,
and exchange views and, as I said,
so glad that many of
our colleagues are now
in the parliament, in the administration,
so this is another thing like
the political things he said.
Yeah but still many of
our guys are in parliament
because of constitution, as he mentioned.
The military maintain really, really
important aspect of power.
Military controlled 25%
of seat in the parliament,
and elected.
Military controlled three ministers,
very important ministers, military ran
the kind of Politburo type body
called Missionary Defense
and Security Council.
Eleven community member, 6 is military.
So military can stage coup legally,
if they think the country's in danger.
So the point is that they
skew the playing field
by means of constitution,
and by means of
distribution of wealth too.
But they accumulated tons of wealth.
So, the country is very fragile.
We are in the very uncertain period.
There's a Burmese saying,
"No two lions can dwell in the same cave."
There is something similar to Chinese.
Chinese has like, "No tigers
live on the same mountain,"
or something like that,
but in Burmese we have,
"No two lions can live or
dwell in the same cave."
But the military drafted constitution
forced two lions in the same cave.
One is our citizen elected civilian,
another one is military.
So in next five years we will see how
these two lions will contest each other,
like contesting each other,
and accommodating each other.
We will see how skillful they are
in accommodating and contesting,
to move the country along.
If they fail, if the equilibrium fail,
we will see really,
really negative scenario.
Another Thai style democracy.
You have the military
coming back all the time.
They think they need to run the country.
So, I think having said that I want
to start the question to Kyaw Zwa Moe,
because this is a place of free speech.
We really be proud of this place
for the whole university.
So, in the past three years
of facing the previous
pseudo civilian government,
facing administration.
The past three years,
especially 2012 to 2015,
was mainly defined by hate speech.
Hate speech against Muslim, hate speech
against Rohingya minority, so I wonder.
What do you expect, with
this kind of hate speech?
More or less, systematically organized
by extremist Buddhist Monk,
and their supporters,
and the government, not just tolerate it,
exploit it to the advantage
of this hate speech.
So what do you see the role of hate speech
in this new elected civilian government?
Thank you.
- [Voiceover] I think that's one of
the main concerns we
all have in our country,
and you may know that hundreds
of people were killed in
Meiktila, the central bomber.
On the communist drive.
All occurred between the Muslim community,
and Buddhist community,
and also in 2012
one young woman was raped
in Rakhine state, western part of Burma,
and then a lot of houses
were burned down,
and then many people were also killed,
and then the Muslim people
community were kept at bay,
and there was a hatred,
disastrous hatred
in that community, especially between
the Rakhinese people
and the Muslim people.
But the problem is,
the problem I saw is the administration.
At the time the administration,
as Min Shin said,
they orchestrated this kind of hatred,
this kind of violence,
and they created intentionally I think.
So it happened a lot,
and then of course you know everywhere
there are already a people,
a conservative people,
extremist as well.
I will admit that also in our
society there are such people.
But I don't think there
are a lot of such people.
But the problem in our
country at the time was,
that those in power,
the so called civilian government,
and their generals, they supported them,
directly or indirectly,
and publicly as well.
That's why a small group
of the radical Buddhist
group fought, or was powerful,
and people including the media
we feel that they are untouchable.
So whatever we wrote about them,
we had to be very, very careful
because they had a government,
they had the generals
and they had the money as well.
So sometime, so that's
why one of the reasons
we were told to change the spelling
of the Irrawaddy magazine
is a Rohingya issue.
In 20, in early 2013, we reported
about the Rohingya issue.
And then the government didn't like it.
And then next day and they issued
a statement in their state run newspaper
saying that the report in the Irrawaddy
and associated press was groundless.
That's what they said.
But we tried to
put all of the sources including
the government spokesperson there.
Denying about the fact that we reported.
But that wasn't the main reason,
they tried to change our name,
or our spelling,
so what I wanted to say is that
kind of radical movement
was backed by the administration,
so that was very, very
important in that area.
So since then I told my reporters
and my colleagues and my friends as well,
so the administration is very important
if that administration is liberal,
and that's the most important thing
we can change in society,
if the administration is still radical,
and conservative and then they
were trying to use any methods they can
then to create that kind of
saturation or hatred or hate speech.
You might notice that
right after the election,
which the election for
national democracy win
by land slide, most of the hate speeches
almost disappeared, even on the facebook.
We didn't hear a lot from those radical
buddhist monks
and the most notorious one is Wirathu.
If he hears what I'm saying,
if I go back, I will be in trouble.
(laughing)
So, we didn't hear much after the NLD win,
even though the NLD
didn't run the government
at the time before the April.
So I think before your question,
the government is very, very important
the government should be very liberal.
If the government, only administrating,
if they don't support that kind
of radical buddhist, radical movement,
I think things will be better I think.
(indiscernible), Aung San Suu Kyi's,
government appointed
the one vice president,
who is a Christian, we never seen
a Christian, or another religion,
apart from the Buddhist
and to who such a
high position in the government.
That is the first time,
I think in 50 years.
So I think the government is quite,
this government I mean,
this government is quite
liberal compared to the
previous government,
but at the same time
even Aung San Suu Kyi,
I think Aung San Suu
Kyi and her government
quite aware that this issue
is very volatile
and it can happen anywhere
and if the government or the military
not the government sorry, the military,
the generals and some
people who have the power
to some of them want to create
that kind of violence especially
in the Arakan state and in Shin state.
It might happen.
But I think the most important thing
is the administration's policy.
- [Voiceover] I want to
know just a little bit
about the financial health of the media
and whether you're gonna
see a consolidation.
It seemed like for
awhile, there were a lot
of new newspapers and magazines.
Will most of them survive?
What does the future look like for them?
- [Voiceover] Let me
start with our magazine.
The Irrawaddy is still a
non-profit organization
and the, when we started founding
the Irrawaddy in Thailand,
we received a grant from
the international agencies,
from the United States and
from the European countries,
and still we stay a
non-profit organization.
It is quite difficult to
make money or make profit in our country.
Because the media landscape has been
controlled by the government
and totally almost hundred percent,
until 19,
until 2012 or 13,
and there were no private daily
newspapers in our country.
We just had only state run newspapers.
Controlled and censored by
the ministry of information.
At the time all of the publications
had to submit every single story
to the ministry of
information to get permission
to publish them next day.
So after 2012, the government started
allowing the daily newspapers
and so even for the giant newspaper,
it's very, very difficult
to make the money,
because the state, three
state run newspapers
have the biggest
circulation in our country.
Over 100,000 copies across the country.
So even, as I said, the
biggest publications
now like 11 or Seventh Day, they
are not gonna make money at all,
but many of them are cronies,
and many of them are rich people,
so they can stay published
in their newspapers
and because they have their money
from other businesses.
That's the way they do,
so that's why I said earlier,
we don't need a ministry of information,
which runs a state run newspapers
and then which get a lot of advertisements
in their newspapers
and they also control all of the
t.v. stations that broadcast,
radio stations as well and they get,
they make a lot of money.
Part of the year I think they have
earned 75 million dollars part year
at the ministry of infomation
with the full newspapers
of three newspapers
and then the two t.v. stations
and the other semi-radio broadcasts.
So they make a lot of money
and for the private independent media,
there is no market at all.
So that's why we really want to change
that media landscaping.
We want to be independent,
not only the editorial policy,
but also financial status as well.
But still difficult, that's why
as I said earlier, we are still non-profit
organization, we still
receive the funding,
or grants from the international agencies,
but at the same time we're trying
to get the advertisements from the
same companies as well.
So I think the new government has
to come up with the good policy
or good approach how to
get it off the state run newspapers fast
and then how to get it off the
ministry of information,
but at the same time, as far as I know,
Because the military also has their
own newspaper and also the t.v. channel.
I think probably, the government,
the current government,
Aung San Suu Kyi government,
want to counter that.
So that's why they still want to keep
the state run newspaper,
even though they appointed a good person
in the ministry of information.
So for us it's still difficult.
Especially for independent media
to be sustainable in our country.
So I think this government
has to create the atmosphere
where independent media
can provide accurate information
and the stories with a
different perspective
and to all of the people
with financially
independence.
So that's the situation we are hoping for,
but I don't know when it will happen.
- [Voiceover] I was wondering about
the generations.
You said that the 88 generation
is now in parliament.
Which is really interesting.
In parliament, does that mean that the
other members are they, like,
an older generation is it a difference
in the generations in Burma
in how open they are to
change, I mean it's hard for me
to like in South Africa,
there was a truth and
reconciliation commission,
so you know, obviously it's
not there at this point,
but I wonder in parliament,
the 88 generation, are they younger
than the other members of parliament,
or, you know, I'm trying to picture
how does, how does it come together.
These old guard and the new members.
- [Voiceover] I think 88 generation is not
that young anymore.
(laughing)
Look at me and look at him.
(laughing)
I think, I think they are in forties.
Some people are in fifties already
and the NLD
and the other parties
recruited the younger people
before they contested the election
in November 2015.
I think that's a good thing.
So now you can see the young people
and much younger than the 88 generation
in the parliament.
That will be the new generation.
Of course you know,
I'm happy to see our generation
in the parliament as well,
because you know, they really suffered
and in the past,
so I think they
they really have something
to change in the parliament,
or in their community quickly
so I think the younger generation
as well as the 88 generation,
even the old guard,
now I think in the NLD the top leaders
are about sixties, seventies,
even Aung San Suu Kyi is 70 years old.
So, I think they, they
have to work together,
but I am happy
because the NLD, NLD has brought
young people as well
and one of the youngest NLD
is a 24, 25 years old, 25 years old,
that's not bad.
And then they try to bring their
woman candidates as well.
So now in the parliament,
we get about up to 13.4
or something woman
members of parliament,
in the parliament and before we just get
only 4 point something.
So it is kind of the triple now
and then the NLD,
I mean many critics said that NLD
was not very family or friendly
with the ethnic parties.
I will say that's not the case,
but before the election,
Aung San Suu Kyi and her party,
tried to
tried to bring the ethnic people
to contest for the NLD S-One.
So even among their own candidates,
there are ethnic people as well.
That's why in Kayin State and Mon State
in Chin State, Kachin State,
many ethnic people
voted for the NLD S-One.
So that might be the good
strategy for the NLD.
But in the long run I don't know how
because one of the policies of the NLD
is to beat up the
federal government,
federal country, the
democratic federal government,
but in fact is you know very, very
difficult I think to bring the,
all of the diverse
key players into the parliament
or into the government
and that's the biggest challenge for us.
That's why Aung San Suu Kyi
also said that the peace process
is her priority and that
in the peace process
and the government has to
deal with the military.
Military is the key in the peace process.
Allow the borders in the conflict areas
and then military can do
whatever they want to do.
Now without listening to
what the president said.
They can do whatever they want to do.
So in that case, so anyone even
in the 88 generation or whatever,
they cannot do anything.
So I think that's amazing sad.
Two lions.
Aung San Suu Kyi, even
though she is not president,
Aung San Suu Kyi is one of the lions
and the commander in chief, the military
and these two players are very,
very important for our country.
If they can negotiate, or if they can
accommodate each other and our country's
future will be bright.
But still it is a very delicate
and fragile situation.
And if the military is not tolerant,
for example, recently,
the NLD in the parliament,
and then they used, they applied
one article in the constitution
and to appoint the Aung San Suu Kyi
as state counselor.
The military representative
in the parliament
rejected it and they were quite angry,
they looked quite angry
and they rejected and rejected,
but the NLD, of course, the majority
of the parliamentary members NLD,
then they voted so they won.
Now, Aung San Suu Kyi is offically
above the president, and she is called
state counselor and that
kind of add and move
a policy by the NLD might have made
the military angry and upset.
That is a very, that would be,
that is the art of I think
the negotiation, compromise
in our country.
In terms of truth
commission like in the South Africa,
I would say it is too
early I think for that,
but I heard that the Comingo Nyo
was approached by the NLD to be head
of the Human Rights Commission.
He doesn't want to get involved in it.
But what they can do is
they should collect the
data information now
and they can interview the victims
and also the former political prisoners
and their families members
that's what they can do.
They can gather the information
at the moment, but not to revenge,
the military but that is the truth.
So they should actually you know,
the Human Rights Commission in Burma
should do and collect
all of those information
at the moment I think.
- [Voiceover] Hi, Kyaw Zwa,
I really want to express
how grateful I am for your good work
and for your life's work really.
I think one of the most frustrating things
I've experienced over the last five years
since the transition is that any time
that I would pick up a journalistic piece,
or read a blog or even academic articles,
it was very apparent that when academics
or journalists or NGOs or
international organizations
would go into Burma, the civil society
interfaced that they
would encounter in Burma
would inevitably be individuals
who are in actuality very closely linked
to the president's office,
or even think tanks are very closely,
you know Myanmar Egress or
the Myanmar Peace Center
that were in actuality founded by
individuals closely
affiliated with the military
and that that sort of representation
is largely what makes it
into the New York Times
or into the Economist
and on the other hand,
having seen this, this social movement,
on the ground on the part of the NLD,
on the part of the 88 generation,
terribly under resourced
and yet still were in the end
able to win the election.
Straight out of jail, you
know, just three, four years,
straight out of jail were able to regroup
and actually win, so I was wondering
first and foremost, what you think
is gonna happen to those individuals
or those bodies, those think tanks,
you mentioned the ministry of information,
which is thus far been an
apparatus of the government,
and why you think it's not a good idea
to use the 75 million or that mechanism
that's already in place,
everything that's in place,
to go towards building a democracy,
funding journalists,
or Myanmar Peace Center or Myanmar Egress,
if those resources are
still gonna be available
for the incoming government
and why they shouldn't use it,
given that they've had
such little resources
and such little capacity.
Why shouldn't they use those resources
to build up capacity?
- [Voiceover] Very good question.
I think we should ask Aung San Suu Kyi.
(laughing)
How she will locate the
funding or whatever.
That's right, that's right, I mean
the Egress and the what else,
the think tank and that group
was very, very powerful
in late 2000s,
I think so right?
In 2000, 2005, 2007.
Until recently.
Egress was founded by Nay Win Maung.
I think they're trying to convince
the international community,
especially the European Union
and almost all of the groups there
and because of that top group,
including the Egress, and the European
Union also shifted their policy
before European Union, also
there are agency in the United States,
supported the Pro-Democracy Movement
and also the independent media,
like Irrawaddy secretly,
not, they were not
inside the country at the time.
And the government didn't allow them.
So, they supported, but after 2007,
especially the Saffron
Revolution was crushed,
and cracked down by the
military government,
even the ranks were arrested and killed
and then after that I think the,
those think tanks and also that groups
tried to convince the EU,
and you had to support the government.
you had to deal with the government,
if you wanted to change the Burma's
political situation landscape.
That's what they told them
and then I think the European diplomats
and also agencies were convinced
and that's why they followed their
suggestions and advisors.
Over the past years and MPC,
I will say MPC, Myanmar Peace Center
it was one of them as well.
I think the channel and connotation
were the key over the past decades
and other military government.
If you had a connection with one general
and you are really, really important,
you are key person,
and then those international agencies
will approach you to get connected
with that general and then they believed,
they think that, they will
convince that general as well.
Something like that.
That's why those people
who have a connection
with one general,
became the powerful at the time,
but actually, basically, they were
kind of the brokers.
Now there are still brokers.
And then the over the first five years,
you know the MPC, Myanmar Peace Center
get a lot of funding from the EU,
millions of dollars, we don't know
how they spend the money,
and there was no transparency at all
and we heard that there was a problem now
and the
we haven't seen any tangible,
concrete result between the military,
the government military
and the ethnic people as well.
Only eight groups signed initially
the cease fire accord.
So for your question,
that was very complicated issue,
that's why I to be honest, in my stories,
also want to match some key people
in the NLD as well.
I told them blindly, you shouldn't use
anyone from the MPC,
in the peace process in your government,
some of them were just brokers
I don't think many of them had
a real intention to really create peace.
Between the government troops
and the ethnic people.
So, I don't know what kind of policy
the NLD will have, they just keep saying
that they haven't anything yet.
So, it is good and if they can use
such money in also the independent media
or to create a very good,
probably, agency or
organization which can help
stop the fighting as well.
But, I don't think there is a
clear solution at the moment.
Probably Min Shin want to add something.
If you want.
- [Voiceover] Oh, very
briefly I think the notion
is not very, new because
the argument is something is
better than nothing, right?
That's a very powerful argument
to persuade western governments
who are frustrated with the deadlock
in past 20 years until 2010,
so these so called our foes,
they approach western government,
especially the vulnerable
spot is EU, right
so they always want to do more engagement.
So then especially Germany, German
and the French, they have like huge
interests in Burma, especially
with the hydrocarbon
is a big deal in Burma,
so the argument is something
is better than nothing.
So we will see new system
with the 2008 constitution,
but old face, so you have
to tolerate the old face,
old people, old general, but they will run
the new institution, so that arguement's
pretty powerful, because
the western government
and estimated the public support
for the opposition.
And then they overestimated
the regime capacity
to maintain power.
So then, what happened was that,
as usual, they all read one book.
The (indiscernable) you
know, the native conclusion
from whatever transition.
The idea is you have to identify
moderate and hardliner.
So now, through these think tanks,
through these thought foes,
we grab moderate in the Burmese Army.
They're going to do good thing.
Even though old face,
they're going to deliver.
So then you identify so-called reformists.
So you give blank check to
the so-called reformists
with lots of money and the
human resource technocrats.
So this is slipper slope right?
You keep giving the blank check,
at the end at the
expense of the reformism.
So you are just supporting the reformists
at the expense of reformism.
So these so-called reformists committed,
anti-Rohingya, anti-muslim,
violence, shut up,
don't say that if you say something,
it will reverse back.
If they launch offensive
in the Kaychin State,
don't say anything it will
make hardliners stronger.
So at the end you are just sliding down
on the slippery slope
physically supporting
the reformists at the
expense of reformism.
If you don't have like
an objective criteria
of what reform means at what point
do you stop and step
back, enough is enough.
No way, so Norway, Sweden,
all these kind of neutral country,
EU, even United States,
were deeply involved
with this kind of narrative
and they're now in shock.
All of these guys were shocked
because they thought
military and the ruling party
would maintain at least
executive if not parliament.
But with the landslide victory of Suu Kyi,
they all got shocked.
I mean I'm not saying
like, Aung San Suu Kyi
will have a magic power and
like make things change,
but I think this is very interesting,
lesson for the western
governments should learn,
if you keep saying something
is better than nothing
and supporting, giving blank check
to so called reformists
at the expense of reform,
you can easily measure, right,
with the human rights violation,
with the new arrest of
the political prisoners,
you know the students and
the Chinese copper mine,
so I think that there's a lot of like,
misguided theoretical underpinning,
which is we need to undefine and persue
endlessly after the so-called reformists,
rather than reformism.
- [Voiceover] I think,
let me a little bit.
I think they were, they were misinformed.
They were, I mean,
there was giant countries and
there were giant governments
that were misinformed by those people,
that groups they were called, scholars
and the specialists, whatever,
they have a connection
with the military generals,
but before the election,
they tried to project
differently without reflecting
the people's desire.
Before the election I was invited to
the NUS, National University of Singapore,
with some people from the MPCS wall
and then they kept saying that
they kept saying that you know,
I mean everything was, everything was
political situation was very fluid,
especially in the ethnic areas
and that means the National
League for Democracy
couldn't win and things like that.
And the military gathered 25% already
and elected and then if their USTB,
the ruling party then,
win, 24, or even 24
and they would be able
to form the government.
That's their policy
and that's what they
kept telling everyone.
But actually that was not the case
and then the election proved it.
And even in some ethnic areas,
the NLD won, but again,
NLD is very popular,
but at the same time,
especially the military
backed, the USTB party,
was hated by the people
over the past decades.
What I wanted to say is the Burmese people
are not very smart and sophisticated.
Of course, we live in that country,
they are not, we are
not that sophisticated,
and that smart and to look at the
each policy of the parties,
like NLD and USTB, Ethic parties,
education policy, foreign policy,
whatever policy and to guess their votes
and they don't have that knowledge,
but at the same time,
they are not naive and stupid at all
and to cast their vote
for those who are corrupt,
and who are oppressors in their life
and then who drove away
their family members
and to become the refugees
outside the country,
and who kept their
family members in jails.
So Burmese people are
not that naive either.
I mean, that's our history,
we have a very long history,
and since the British era,
Burmese people are
quite politically aware.
That's what those scholars forget.
And then the western government,
not all, some of the western government
and bought their ideas
and after they gathered,
after election was over,
they get shocked.
So I think international communities
should offer, I mean, the real
accurate perception as well,
of the Burma.
Burma is a quite complicated country
and situation.
- [Voiceover] Thank you Kyaw Zwa.
I just realized the time is eight,
the staff have to leave,
but I will give the last
question to Brad Adams
from Human Rights Watch,
who is here tonight.
- [Voiceover] Thanks.
Hi, you know, sorry just so I can see it.
Thank you for what you just said,
because my experience in talking
to western governments and others
was exactly what you said,
they didn't really want to know,
or even investigate what Burmese people
were thinking, they didn't take the time
to get out of their
embassies or their cars
and go and talk to
people, so they believed
in the consensus, which was a very
comfortable one for themselves.
And Penny and I had this experience
in Cambodia 20 years ago where
every smart diplomat and journalist
told us that the Hun Sen regime would win
that election the first election there
and the Cambodian people had
completely different views
and the opposition won overwhelmingly.
There's a lot to be hopeful about,
but I just want go back to the Rohingya,
because if there is a subject that keeps
me and my colleagues awake at night,
it's the Rohingya and the prospects
for more rounds of ethnic cleansing,
crimes against humanity,
whatever you want to call it.
And when I've been in Burma
in the last couple years
and talked to NLD members
and I'm sorry to say,
88 generation members, many of them
have expressed open racist sentiments
toward the Rohingya and Muslims
and I would say in fact,
that's the majority
sentiment among people I met
at the 88 generation offices,
senior members of the group
and at the NLD offices,
senior members of that party,
I'm not gonna name names to embarrass
anybody right now, but we came away
quite stunned at how they were voicing
the same views as the Mabatha.
Sometimes they would say we aren't
like the Mabatha, but they would say
basically the same thing.
And some of them didn't even,
you know, yelled at us, saying the term
Rohingya was not a real term,
and we should not use it.
Same thing that the military regime
and the fake civilian government said.
So my question to you is,
you have better access to
these people than I do,
how deeply are these anti-Rohingyan,
anti-Muslim sentiments
among the people who are
running the government
and if the military does something
that would actually be sickening,
but probably politically smart
and causes trouble and lands that trouble
on the doorstep of Aung San Suu Kyi
and the NLD, how do you
suspect they will react?
- [Voiceover] To be honest, I don't know
how many people in the NLD
or in the current government
have a hatred against other religions,
especially the Rohingya.
But I think the, what I read,
the manifesto and when I talked with the
some people in the NLD as well,
I think they
wanted to have
equality for all of the ethnic people
including the Muslim people,
including the Rohingya people.
I mean for that they might have to come up
with very concrete
or good policy.
I don't know what kind of policy
they might come up with,
but when you look at the local,
especially Arakanese State,
Arakan State where many Rohingya
are locked up in their camps.
Even Arakanese people are quite
I want to say all, but maybe some of them
or many of them are quite hostile
to the Rohingya people as well.
Probably same to the
Arakanese people as well.
That's why I think the situation
in Arakanese state is quite tense
and even now, you might be aware
that the ANP, Arakan National Party,
has the
outpost, the appointment
of the chief minister,
by the NLD.
They don't like it at all.
They even they now very,
they are now very,
they become the opposition against the NLD
in their region of parliament now.
So, the NLD appointed the Arakanese person
as chief of minister, but that person
is member of the NLD,
but Arakanese people, majority
of the Arakanese people,
just wanted the Arakanese chief minister,
which is from ANP, their main party,
Arakan National Party.
So, so it is quite I think
quite complicated and quite difficult
situation out there.
If the NLD cannot manage
and arrange very well,
I think that state will
be the starting point
for chaos
or whatever in our country.
And also again, about the military
can use that area, that's a
achilles heel I think.
That's an area they can
start doing something
and we were concerned
even before the election.
The military could do something,
from that state.
Because you know, 2012
and that was the area
and all of the violence happened,
because of that rape case.
Again, I want to, I want to mention
that in that rape case, even
the government newspapers
and spread hate speech officially
and also some high ranking officials
of the president's office,
also intentionally spread
that hate speech as well.
So, I mean that's a very,
serious issue, Rohingya issue.
I don't know how the new government
will control it, will manage it
but if the Rohingya people,
but, but again, the Muslim people
have voted for the NLD,
so of course they prefer the NLD,
to the previous government
because they believed
they will have a right
their rights and equality
under the NLD government.
That's not what we should forget.
- [Voiceover] Alright, thank you.
I must close and I wanted to thank,
very, very much our speaker Kyaw Zwa,
I forgot to say he just arrived yesterday
from Yangon, so he's doing very well,
given the jet lag and
to mention of course,
that we're all in a spirit of celebration
because it's not only did Aung San Suu Kyi
you know,
together with the actual
real civilian government,
see their inauguration on one April,
but then the subsequent
release of political prisoners
and also that it's Burmese New Year.
(speaking in foreign language)
So on that celebratory note, again,
let's give a big round of applause
to both Kyaw Zwa and also to Min Shin.
(applause)
Thank you so much.
(applause)
