Do you think Islam is compatible with
the West? Not in any self-evident manner
so although I would also say that Islam
is part of the West, you know we should
actually give that some consideration.
That doesn't mean that Muslims aren't
compatible with Western society, you know, I mean many Muslims are no more radical
Muslims than Christians are radical
Christians. In fact many Muslims aren't
any more Muslims than many Christians
are Christians. // Hello there welcome to
Rational Religion where we make sense of
spirituality. In today's episode of
believe you me we're gonna be discussing
Jordan Peterson's views on Islam - where
he goes wrong, and what he can do about
it. Hi my name is Tahir Nasser, I'm a
junior doctor working in the UK. And my
name is do my Umar Nasser, I'm also junior
doctor in the UK... that was exciting
wasn't it? Yeah absolutely. Very diverse. So we're
Muslims from the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, 
a reformist community within the Muslim
world who are trying to show you what
the true original teachings of Islam are.
So I think we all know who John Peterson
is, he's a psychology professor from
Canada.  Yeah and he's become quite a phenomenon
on YouTube and on other streaming sites
in particular, and generally in terms of
the literature side of things as well
he's written some really well-received
books as well. And in terms of TV
interviews, you know he did a TV interview
which is probably gonna go down in
history as one of the biggest car
crashes for channel 4. So you know I
gotta hand it to him he's got some
talent for a number of things. But he has
also expressed some views with respect
to Islam which... well they're wrong...
to put it bluntly. But he's acknowledged
that he doesn't know much about Islam
and that it would require years of
study, and he's not the kind of person
who likes to make glib comments, throw away comments which.
require in-depth study. So he gives his
impressions but before that he does say
look, I don't know much about this, but here's my impression. He wants to have
these discussions with Muslims and you
know we want to have a bit of a remote
discussion, showing you a few
of his clips and and talking through
them and if you're not Mr. Jordan
Peterson, watching this, which is probably
quite likely statistically no I think he
follows our website and everything.
I think he watches everything! - Because we want him to receive this
information and we want him to analyze
it and critique it and do his own
research off the back of it. And it's obviously quite important that
he sees this because he's a very
influential voice in the West, a lot of
especially young people follow him, and
the views that people have on Islam
really do colour our culture and our
politics. Yeah so it's not a small issue,
so please do send this to him if you're
not him, if you are him please continue
watching. Alright let's go. First clip. // Problem number two for me and
again this may be a consequence of my
ignorance which I am trying to rectify.
Muhammad was a warlord and I don't know what to do about that fact. Like one
thing you can say about Christ,
hypothetically, let's say I'm not talking
about a historical reality necessarily,
although I'm not denying it either is
that of all the things he was warlord
was definitely not one of them. And I
don't know what to do about that. And so
I don't know how to reconcile that.
Okay, so 'Prophet Muhammad is a warlord, peace be upon him, what do you make of that?
Well I mean I think it's an emotionally
charged and fundamentally inaccurate
description of him and he mentions in
his video that you know he doesn't think
anybody could take exception to the use
of that word because he was a warlord.
Alright, but you know would you say for
example, that Churchill was a warlord?
That's bad example, he was a bit nuts. You
could say Churchill was a warlord, because
he was the first to use chemical weapons.
Putting that aside in the context of
WW2, would you for example say,
that you know Churchill's actions in
World War Two, defending Britain against
- or Roosevelt or other western leaders
against Nazi expansion, would you say
that that was the actions of warlords?
You wouldn't. Warlord is a term you use
only for those who are aggressors in war
and those who use battles and war as a
means to expand their territories and
their aims. Now that is therefore an
inaccurate portrayal of the Prophet
Muhammad completely. Why is that
inaccurate? so
accurate because he didn't ever use war
to spread his teachings in fact the
greatest number of conversions after
eighteen years of persecution after six
years of having been involved in battles
he had a two-year lull in fighting
against the meccans and we're going to
go through that all in a bit more detail
but this is a short answer to your
question he had a two year long after
what was known as the treaty of
hudaibiya and you know his number of his
of his followers went from 3,000 men
yeah that's the numbers we can count
from the number of the army who was
there
so 3,000 at the Battle of Han dock and
the Battle of the ditch to within two
years 10,000 so normalize it took 18
years to get to 3,000 men in his
community and it took another two years
to get to 10,000 and I'm during this
time and those two years run the
peacetime right so sorry I mean and when
you look at the modern day a world of
Islam you look at the most populous
Muslim country in the world what is it
it's an Indonesia Indonesia was never
invaded by Muslim army it was a group of
Sufi travelers and Sufi mystics who went
and they preached at Indonesian people
who are Buddhist and Hindu at the time
and a variety of Aboriginal religions
there and they accepted Islam and now
that is the most populous country of
Muslims in the world so the idea that
Islam was spread by the sword you know
it's an absolutely false picture of
Islam and I think I think it's there
because I think some critics in the West
don't want to portray Islam as a
spiritually attractive teaching yes they
want to say the reason why it expanded
and why so many people converted it was
because you know it's just war and it
was expansion of course this is
intuitively ridiculous to imagine that
one lone person who you know is rejected
by his own community is in the position
to start expanding yeah you know how do
we begin we begin with his birth I guess
so yeah it's a little bit bomb out so he
was born six century and five 70 of the
Common Era ad and at that time Mecca
which was the chief Arab states because
they had the Holy Temple I guess you'd
call it there where all the pilgrims
were around Mecca traveled to and did
their pilgrimage that was where he was
that's the Kaaba that's the gun the
black stone which Muslims do the circum
animation
time they had one Idol for every day of
the air in there so he was born in this
society of idolatry he was he grew up
there I mean he had a very essential
Matic childhood I guess you could say he
his father died before he was born his
mother died
reports say basically around six years
old near six years old then he went on
to the care of his grandfather its
grandfather died a few years later when
he was twelve yeah and then he went
under the care of his uncle yes this is
an orphan in the most extreme sense of
the word and though he was descendant he
was a member of the most rich and wealth
his tribe in Arabia he was you know one
among their number and he had no parents
he was one of the poorest in that tribe
and this isn't a fact this isn't a
society which is highly tribal you can't
conceive of how tribal the society was
it was extreme tribalism and you know he
grew up to up to the age of about twenty
five as part of this tribe and what
happened then well I mean he he grew up
in that society he was known as a sod
economy image which means the most
trustworthy and most honest person so is
he was renowned in a society as being
their best socialist leader this was his
nickname was the truthful or the
trustful and the faithful so I mean this
is quite an extraordinary individual
right from the get-go I mean not
everybody gets that's not a narrow
practice just name people by those terms
anyway absolutely so but he was so
exemplary in his character that they saw
that this man is at least possibly the
most significant person to notice this
was his future one so he went under the
employer ship I guess he was a he was an
unemployment by hazard Aditya it was to
be his wife she was 40 years old
and when he was 25 and he traded well
and he was very very honest in his
dealings and because of that she a very
successful older businesswoman proposed
him so this is a woman having twice
widowed before already had children
proposing and wealthy proposing to a
poor orphan employee 15 years her junior
who accepts her marriage proposal she
pays for the wedding right and they live
together for 25 years yes in a
monogamous relationship in a society
where polygamy was the norm right Wow
that's not the picture we know absolute
or have been taught from the media about
the Prophet Mohammed is it no because it
shows when he was
and as youngest people say yeah you know
it's polygamous later on in life and he
was for various reasons I mean he you
know especially largely so he could
teach the women of different communities
the teachings of Islam
yeah and mostly women he married were
divorced always owed so but when he was
there his youngest one you know passions
are out there highest he wasn't like
that human passions leave her either fit
right like a 19th century writer there
yeah and his passions are at highest
actions are at their peak you shoot all
such things and lived a life for virtue
that's true that's pretty much it that's
pretty much so you know this is a man
who then reached the age of 14 and after
fifth you know for like between the age
of 25 to 40 he was a man who would
retreat to the cave of Hira for weeks at
a time yanking provisions which is why
foot pack for him meditating praying in
this cave 15 years seeking guidance for
his people
yeah and those they were I mean if you
read accounts of his people they were in
the the lowest form of civilization they
would have Wars for a hundred years or
literally one person kicking a camel
that's that's a real thing that's one of
the actual wars that happened you know
they used to bear as a big kick daily
fare they used to bury they're pretty
rude they used to bury their infant
daughters alive this is a society that
used to enslave people pretty much
willy-nilly if they didn't have any
tribal support and keep them safe for
generations there's pretty much the
worst society you could imagine and I'll
see him growing up in that he felt so
spiritually you know when you work that
distance from that baby because he was
acutely a spiritual individual connected
to God you know he felt like his the
world needed guidance nee recognized
that the whole world was in this state
now the point is was he a war lon he's a
put his appointed as a prophet at age
forty years old yeah right let's say
he's sincere and maybe you think he's
deluded fine but let's at least see some
sinner right so he claims to be a
prophet of God and he's appointed as a
prophet God what does he do so he
basically goes around preaching his
message to those around him first his
close family and then his close friends
and family and then he widens his sphere
preaching his message so he eventually
ends up reaching to the whole of Mecca
they boycott him the boycott extends
even to an economic boycott which
results in a famine against his tribe
which results in the death of his
wife of 25 years yeah the death of his
uncle who raised him after the death of
his grandfather it's known as the year
of sorrow right and you know this is a
man who after how many years of this
kind of took 10 years of this kind of
treatment okay
we're his his followers are persecuted
to the extreme extent that the first
martyr of Islam was a woman for example
who who was a who was stabbed with a
spear through her private parts you know
other people had horses tied to each
hand and run in different directions to
tell and there was a clean chat these
people these were literally people who
were tortured and you know the the the
best way to understand that is the fact
that the Prophet Muhammad peace be on
him he actually sent his followers on
two waves of migrations two Abyssinia he
has a Christian Kingdom and he said
among the Christian King you will
receive your rights they're being denied
to you here and so there are two waves
of migrations to Abyssinia to escape the
persecution yeah right while he stayed
in Mecca with a very small diminished
number of followers and then we mean
what happened after those ten years so
in the thirteenth year so we talk about
the boycott and the the deaths and shoot
from that in the thirteenth year
sorry us in the thirteenth year that's
right he had an assassination attempt on
his life yeah another one but this was a
particularly grave one all the other
tribes teamed up on him they appointed
one person from each tribe to stab him
at the same time so that his tribe
hadn't couldn't fight all of them
simultaneously yeah so that's the degree
of consternation he was causing in their
society and their you know their how
strong they were in trying to um what
was he preaching which annoyed them so
much God is one and all humans are equal
under the sight of God yeah that was his
message in effect mm-hmm so he he then
basically he he survived that
assassination attempt we believe he was
informed by God and he survived it then
he left you know immediately that night
so then he migrated 200 miles north to
Medina which was another city where here
there were many of his followers not
that many but there were some of his
followers there so he went across the
entire desert being pursued by assassins
and you have very many close calls with
them
well they had a bounty of his own in his
head of a hundred camels to bring him
back dead or alive so so the picture
painting for you is basically a man who
was persecuted for 13 years sent his
followers on two sets of migration
refused and we didn't mention this he
refused to allow his followers to fight
back against his oppressors even though
they wished for him to do so I mean put
those references down below and then he
himself was forced to migrate because of
an assassination attempt away from the
city was birth in which he's been living
for how old was he now he's 53 now he's
53 years old at this a top of 53 years
of living in the city he's having to
leave buts wife died his uncle's dog
white his uncle's died and he's leaving
with a bounty on his head so he goes to
Medina and what happens then so in
Medina it doesn't stop so the people
that were trying to kill him there then
start telling the people in Medina
unless you give him up this is a quote
they said we'll come to you with our
armies will kill your men and well
essentially you know enslave your women
so this was the state and one of the
other the other sort of chief of the
Jews in Medinah was was given this
ultimatum he came to the Muslims very
very worried
but eventually they kind of reached an
agreement that he wouldn't be given up
yeah and we also have you know in the
holy quran itself where it discusses
this and it says that you know you were
in it you were in a state where you're
weak in the land and you were you were
afraid that you would be snatched away
yeah right so this is recorded in the
quran was recorded in the history books
this is well known this is the state
that the muslims were living it was you
know it's obvious from the fact that
he's migrated yeah 200 miles away yeah
and you know where did the back the
first battle take place it didn't take
far from Medina hmm you know the mother
is not that far is between Makkah and
Madinah and and and the first battle
what happened you know the first battle
ensued because the Muslims were then
given permission to fight back but that
was after Muhammad peace be on him was
made the head of the state of Medina by
the two idolatrous tribes there and the
three Jewish tribes there right they all
those right yeah that's correct and they
all came together and said muhammad
peace be on you eat muhammad you know
we're gonna make you our leader our
elected leader because we keep fighting
amongst ourselves we need an outsider to
arbitrate between our different tribes
yeah he was elected as the city-state's
ruler and we'll talk about what he did
in that capacity a little bit later yeah
but for now we're discussing sort of you
know what was the state in that in that
early period you know the again it says
in the grandness also
recordin these sayings actually that
they were so afraid that they couldn't
even sleep at night the Muslims but
they're so afraid of attack yeah because
they kept on hearing these rumors of
attack coming in and they said you know
we wish for the day when we'll be able
to sleep with only the fear of God in
our hearts
yeah I'm slowly so what happened then so
they migrated to twice Abyssinia 200
miles north to Medina and now the
meccans the Meccan idol idol idolaters
still don't stop chasing them they send
letters being aggressive towards their
other tribes people in the city saying
if you don't give him up we're going to
come and kill you and what results is a
confrontation God gives permission to
the Muslims after 13 years of
persecution and what does God say to
Muslims this is the first verse of the
firaon that was revealed permitting
Muslims to take up arms and to fight
does it say take up arms and conquer
these people because of the way maybe
you made Muslim or they may die at your
hand is that what it says no it's not
what it says the Quran states in chapter
22 permission to fight is given to those
against whom war is made because they
have been wronged and indeed Allah has
the power to help them those who have
been driven out from their homes
unjustly only because they said our Lord
is Allah and if Allah did not repel some
men by means of others Khoi stirs and
churches and synagogues and mosques
where in the name of our lies often
remembered which surely have been
destroyed and Allah will surely help him
who helps him so this is such an
important verse because this is the
permission yeah right God says
permission is given to fight okay so
this was the first time Muslims were
permitted to take up arms and
self-defense and what does it say what
was the reasoning given the reason is
self-defense is very clear permission is
given against those who've been fought
yes right so there's they battle has
already been initiated and they're
responding to it in defense of
themselves but then the permission
actually gives the underlying principle
as well where it says it's not just
permission to defend your own selves but
also it's it's defense of those who
being persecuted wherever they are and
what are the faith of background they
are yes so it says you know there
Cloisters the churches and synagogues
and mosques yeah and you know what do
you make of the actual ordering that
well it's pretty interesting because it
doesn't put mosques first it has amidst
or place of worship and it particularly
says this is with respect to those
who've been driven out of their homes
this isn't just a persecution in your
home this isn't just discrimination
discrimination in your city it's got to
the state where you can't live there
yeah all right
you have to leave okay that's the
condition that's being attached to being
permitted to fight back yeah and it says
that if God did not permit some people
to fight back against other people then
you would have the destruction
destruction of temples churches
synagogues and mosques
so he goes temples first all sort of
described as cloisters it actually just
means temples yeah and then it says
churches and then it says synagogues and
mosques and why is it that order that
mosques is last and temples as fast the
reason is because religions that are
known by temples are the furthest away
from Islam in theology the next is
closest as churches because the
Christian faith is closest after those
types of religions which are in temples
and then the third faith which is
closest to Islam is Judaism in its
theology and so that's placed next to
and the list a third and the last place
given is mosques yeah in other words is
pointing out that the most the greatest
pirate priority isn't with respect to
their Muslims they're like you they have
the same religious beliefs as you it
actually means that regardless of their
faith you should defend them because
freedom of conscience is universal and
it's a brilliant response to you know
pure ultra pacifist isn't it yes I'm
saying that you know if if people are
not allowed to defend themselves when
there's a tyrannical ruler then they
then you know all truth will be
destroyed and there'll be no peace in
the world
exactly you know these places in which
God's name is oft commemorate and this
is not the beautiful aspect of the Quran
the Quran knowledge is that in these
other places of worship in the temples
and the churches and in the synagogues
the name of God is often remembered so
so this was the verse of permission to
fight so unless you want to say that a
man who fights in defense of freedom of
conscience for all as a warlord you know
it's just simply not an acceptable
position to hold and also the numbers
involved in the actual armies clearly
showed is the home that he was not you
know in expansionary or in the battle so
in the first battle how many Muslims
were there so they're three
hundreds sort of you know young and old
with a few sort of camels here and there
but Amish I think there are two camels
and two horses or a few camels and two
horses there are men basically with
pitchforks there are 300 equivalent
there are 300 13 of them they face an
army of 1000 with you know many hundreds
of horses and comes the cream and crop
of Mecca fully equipped soldiers yeah
and guess who won it was a 313 who beat
them and that kind of pattern of being
outnumbered didn't stop the next battle
was the Battle of a hood there's a
thousand Muslims against 3,000 idolaters
we should say and then what was in the
Battle of the ditch it was three
thousand Muslims abeyance to about ten
thousand confederates have different
communities they've come to fight the
Muslims both in front of the city and
behind them right and then what happened
there was a treaty of hudaibiya yes
we've already mentioned and during that
treaty the Muslims have a peace treaty
with the Meccans
because the Meccans were sick of losing
basically and they decided that they
were going to have a period of peace and
during that two-year period the Muslims
went from 3,000 in the number of their
soldiers to 10,000 so during a period of
peace they expanded by 7000 while after
16 year 18 years of persecution and
warfare they had only got up to 3,000
men so what does that tell you about the
nature of the Islamic teachings it means
it's spiritually attractive basically
yes and it's something you know no one
can really people can't spend time and
missionary activity if they're
constantly fearing for their lives and
they're involved in different battles or
expeditions yeah right in defending
their people yeah but actually when
people have a period of peace and they
have security yeah then they can go and
actually preach here is actually the
message of Islam that God is one and
that people are equal that Prophet
Muhammad peace be upon him is the
messenger and that we should follow him
and through following his teachings we
ourselves will be spiritually elevated
towards God okay so after this peace
treaty was broken by the mekansm cells
because they didn't follow us the
Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him took
his army which is now ten thousand
people you know and he marched in Mecca
surrounded it took it by surprise
covered all the ports and he basically
there at his mercy completely as mercy
now let's remember this is
a man whose wife will died as a result
of that boycott whose uncle died whose
quote you know close to followers have
been persecuted men even mean tortured
and died his own daughter actually who
was pregnant at the time was attacked
and she she died she was thrown off the
camel and she died so this is issues
mister she miscarried and died yeah as a
result of that so this is this is you
know this is the man that we're talking
about so what did he do when he when he
had them at his mercy well if he was a
warlord what would you expect well he
would have done much for answers Genghis
Khan has so many other tyrants in
history do when they have the upper hand
he would have sorted them to burn their
houses you know down the whole warlord
thing yeah yeah so what did he do he did
the opposite he gathered their chiefs
whom he had been fighting for many years
and who had taken so much from him in
terms of been worldly things and he said
what treatment do you expect of me and
they said we hope that you'll treat us
like Joseph treated his brothers and he
said well then I forgive you all
so not the treatment of a warlord no not
at all
so names there's a general amnesty there
are a few people who've created to
commit it you know very very specific
crimes against the state who were
punished but I was literally five or six
that wasn't you know it's a very few
actually counties to your hands yeah all
of the chief towns the general
population given a general pardon even
the wife of the chief 10 who to eat and
his uncles and liver on the battlefield
was pardoned even the man who Jabara his
name was who killed his pregnant
daughter was forgiven you know so these
this is the degree of forgiveness he
showed and you know John Peterson makes
a big deal about how he doesn't
understand how a person who fights in a
battle could be a moral role model for
anybody but you could only take that
position if you're a pacifist actually
yeah because a pacifist is the one who
thinks that fighting on any
circumstances is illegitimate and
immoral but if you accept that there are
conditions which you do need to take up
arms yeah actually you need a moral
guide who has taken up arms and shows
you how to do it in a legitimate and
righteous fashion to be a moral guide
for others and in actual fact to say
that Jesus is the paragon of forgiveness
on the contrary yeah he is not the
paragon of forgiveness because
forgiveness can only truly be exercised
when you have the power and the right of
retribution now Jesus at no point had
the power and right of retribution over
his enemies he was a victim
throughout the whole of the crucifixion
narrative mm-hmm okay and no point
through the crucifixion crucifixion
narrative did he ever have the right or
power over his enemies the Prophet
Muhammad alone how that was put in that
position and therefore you can't say
that Jesus actually exercised true
forgiveness because he never had the
right or power of retribution and in
addition to that he never actually
demonstrated to the world what the moral
example is of one who actually goes to
war I mean I'll give you one or two very
small examples we talked about there are
big things but there were even small
things which really shocked me when I
read them for instance a problem hung
with he had so many rules of war you
know which were you know extremely
humane you should only fight you know
how two armed combatants you should not
touch their women or children or their
monks for instance or old people old
people don't cut down their trees don't
don't cut down any fruit bearing trees
don't destroy their monastery
or places of worship and I think y'all
seen don't don't limit the access to
water don't limit their access to water
so those are that those were the the
stand ones but there are smooth few few
ones which were almost a fine print
which I've only sort of you know my
adult life heard of which I was just
shocked he said well we've researched
read into them yeah when she said he he
said the Muslims should be the most junk
gentle someone who strikes someone so
this is the advice he gave to his
soldiers who are fighting for their
lives yeah he should've said it must
have should be the most gentle weight if
someone who strikes it and he also said
he returned farther than that
he said don't don't don't hit anybody's
face so literally this is a battle
between men who are in 3313 against Nam
me of a thousand then an army of 1000
Aslam of 3,000 then an army of 3000
Islamic 10000 and then he's telling his
soldiers don't strike your enemy at the
enemy on their face or to heart general
or to hard journey
don't don't don't disfigure them in the
act of death which means no wanton
cruelty nothing like that I mean can you
imagine that person being described as a
warlord who then when he has power over
as enemies forgives them all including
the man who killed his daughter
and now 1,400 years later will you read
a young heresy Ali and think we know
about it slut why he doesn't but happy
to voice upon it and call him a warlord
and say actually you know I don't think
anybody would disagree with the
statement that he's a warlord it bites
to be honest it really bites because you
know he doesn't unfortunately is in a
way not as Fault in a way it is
you always have responsibility for what
you say but it's the culture and the
environment in which he is learning
about these things absolutely and at
least he said look I want to have
dialogue with Muslims I'm gonna learn
more so that's to his credit so I think
that so that's the first thing that we
want to say us the first tip that will
cover we're going to do more episodes on
Jordan Peterson's views on Islam
so again if you're not John Peterson
send this video to him so that he sees
it and if you are John Peterson get in
touch look mate we are happy to come on
your show and trap of you Abby to have
you on our show we're very flexible now
any deceptions public or private would
be happy to talk about this moment but
please do check out upcoming videos as
well also make sure you subscribe the
button should be down there yeah because
we have lots of content on religion
January I think
long as well yeah hit the belt so until
next time peace be upon you peace be on
you
