bjbj Woman: This is We Are Netflix, Netflix
employees talking about work and life at Netflix.
[Music] Lyle: m Lyle Troxell. And on this
episode of We Are Netflix, we ve got something
special. Bren You will never be fully successful
in the long run unless the people here reflect
the people you serve. [Applause] Lyle: Recently,
Netflix invited bestselling author Bren Brown
to our Los Angeles office to discuss her research
on courage, vulnerability, diversity, and
inclusion in the workplace. Bren talk 
professor at the University of Houston, where
she holds the Huffington Foundation Bren Brown
Endowed Chair of the Graduate College of Social
Work. So that s an incredible thing. And mostly
we know that Bren has made it safe to talk
about all sorts of fabulous things like shame
and vulnerability. Bren Brown. [Applause]
een able to help us understand that we can
have a lot of seemingly competing emotions
at the same time. So tell us a little bit
about like how you got to understanding the
relationship between vulnerability and courage.
Because most people think of those things
as being somewhat separate. Bren I definitely
grew up thinking they were separate. I grew
up, you know, Texan. You re either brave or
you re afraid. Pick. And so I just kind of
grew up with the idea I must be a very fearful
person because I m afraid a lot. And I think
as a kid growing up kind of always feeling
on the outside, I became really, a really
powerful pattern finder. It was kind of a
way of moving through the world somewhat safely.
Like I could see, oh, this emotion is connected
with this way of thinking. If people are behaving
this way, they re feeling this way. So I started
to really, I became a really good pattern
finder. And so that just kind of led, in a
very circuitous like 12-year degree plan way,
to becoming a researcher and a qualitative
researcher. And I think when I started doing
the research, it was all about shame. And
I really wanted to understand shame. And that
came back to a moment when I was When I was
in college, I worked in residential treatment
with adolescents. And we had this really difficult
week. And I don t talk about this story really,
very often, so it s interesting. We had a
very difficult week where one young girl tried
to commit suicide, another girl tried to run
away. And if you re living in, if you re working
in a treatment facility, residential treatment
facility, these are kids who parental rights
have been severed. They re growing up in treatment.
And I was getting my degree in social work
at the time and working part time at this
place. It was in the hill country in Texas.
Just beautiful, run by these kind of amazing
forward-thinking clinicians. And so in treatment,
when someone tries to run away, the whole
place goes on lockdown. You take shoestrings
out of everyone s tennis shoes so that their
shoes fall off if they try to run. It s like
a thing where Because it s contagious, that
kind of behavior. One person goes, then more
kids get the idea. And so we had this emergency
meeting. And the clinician, the therapist
who ran the clinical part, came up and said,
I know you care about these kids. I know you
re kind of scared right now because of what
s going on in the program. But you cannot
shame or belittle people into changing their
behaviors. And he kept talking, but I didn
t hear anything after that. And I actually
made an appointment to follow up with him
two days later and said do you remember in
that meeting when you said you can t shame
or belittle people into changing? Are you
sure about that? And he s like, I am sure
about that. And I said but that s the way
the world works, like the way like parenting
works. That s the way magazine articles work.
That s the way commercials work. got to the
end of that. And I thought I was going to
do it for six months and it took six years.
I m really bad at time estimation. Really
bad at it. And then when I was done with that
study and had a real handle on shame, I said,
oh my God, I ve got all this data about shame
but inside this data is also the answer to
the question about wholeheartedness. So I
started asking the question, okay, I understand
what shame is, but who are these weirdos that
think they re enough? Like who are these people?
erable, which was super devastating for I
thought the answer was going to be wholehearted
people have PhDs in shame. I thought that
would be the answer. Like I wanted to be heady
and intellectual. I didn t think the answer
would be like they like themselves and they
re vulnerable. Like what kind of bullshit
is that? ack to that. But one of the things
that we have learned, you know, I ve learned
for doing this for 20-plus years is what you
discovered about shame, which is that blame
and shame does not change people s behavior.
Does it keep us from doing it, however, especially
in the diversity space? Because even when
people are trying to be vulnerable, opening
up themselves, there s a deep amount of risk
involved in being not 
the good, perfect Bren Tons, yeah. l outside
for so much, they don t seem to have the capacity
to extend that kind of openheartedness. So
I just wanted to know what s your journey
through this being an, feeling an outsider.
Right? And then how do we deal with trying
to be more vulnerable when we know that taking
risks sometimes is not rewarded? Bren So you
said something that was I think the key to
the whole thing, which is you want to have
the difficult conversation. Right? And then
you put yourself out there and you blow it
and you bout gender, about race, about whatever
you re talking about. But here s the difference.
This is the fork in the road. I m leaning
in to have the conversation, not to be right
but to get it right. So the shame comes when
you lean into the conversation in order to
be right and then you are, then your bias
is headed back to you and you are wrong. But
that s not the why that should drive the conversation.
The why needs to be I m not leaning in to
be right. My goal in this conversation is
to learn more and get it right. Then as long
as you stay curious and open and take your
armor, leave your armor off, you can t screw
it up. But so many I mean, like I have literally
taught race, class, and gender for PhD and
Master students for 22 years. I have never
had this conversation, a single conversation
about race, class, identity it doesn t matter
and not had my ass handed to me. I have never
not In a chair with DeRay Mckess-. You know,
and livestream to tens of thousands of people
who Anybody watch that? Th People lean into
them, especially the whiter, straighter, Christian.
They lean in to show ally of the month. Right?
As opposed to I m trying, I don t know everything,
I m never going to stop learning. So 
the 
shame comes for the intention. And let me
tell you, these are stealth intentions. where
you re in the up group, is that you actually
believe in your superiority and you don t
even know it. And so what you re trying to
do is prove that in fact you are superior.
And even though you really don t know anything
about this group, you re sure you do. You
know? And Bren Oh my God. ow Indians have
great And you re like that s it. That s all
you got. You don t know anything else about
the whole culture. You re just going to get
a cool point for having gone to an Indian
wedding. Bren And had tiki masala, yeah. Like
[unintelligible 00:12:19]. n the vulnerability
piece, right, or the courage piece. Let s
go with the courage piece for a second because
one of the things that people think, like
what you already said, which is like there
s no courage, there s no fear when there s
courage. Where you know for sure that there
is. But how does vulnerability serve us when
it comes to courage? Right? So how do you
get from making yourself like at risk to actually
showing up courageous? Because it seems like
you re just exposing your weakness. So help
me, help us think about that. Bren Yeah, so
I actually think vulnerability is the prerequisite
for courage. Because I don t, I cannot think
of nor have I ever been able to have thousands
of people that we ve asked Like, and let s
not do it rhetorically. Like let s do it in
this audience. Give me an exa-. I mean, the
definition of vulnerability just from the
data is uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure.
So to feel vulnerable is to feel uncertain,
at risk. And emotional exposure is people
may s urageous. Well, if you not feeling like
[gasps], you know, that s, then it probably
wasn t courage that you were showing. Bren
No. Because someone asked me the other day,
Do you think Netflix was a good idea? Like,
and I was like m scared shitless, so I 
think so because everything I ve ever done
that s been valuable has been really scary.
Like how do you know if you ve given a good
talk? Because I m slightly nauseous for a
day or so afterwards. Like, so if you re not,
if you don t feel afraid 
ng and the puffing up. Like normally what
I say is, you know, usually flags go up for
me because I don t think, I think people are
really dangerous when they re in fear. And
so I, so it s like that s a fear, that s a
person who s scared right now. So be thoughtful.
You know, be thoughtful because they will
crush anything in their way to feel less scared.
And so that s like right now when people One
of the things that triggers fear in other
people a lot that s like a really When you
talk about diversity, equity, inclusivity,
one of the big barriers I think we face is
nostalgia. You know, like, well, things used
to be like this. And so the thing that they
re not saying is the way things used to be.
And then the silent trailer is when people
knew their place. The way things used to be
when everyone knew their place. You know,
and 
so what you re saying, which is you need to
be thoughtful and careful. But I sometimes
think you just not fooling anybody. But I
also see a different motive and a different
way of operating, which is that people use
their power to intimidate other people. Right?
But if you go under that, why are they using
their power that way? And under that is the
fear. Bren s power over is a very, like one
of the 16 predictable forms of armor. Okay.
And in, when we sort of try to delineate what
that means for our culture, we say things
like, you know, you are willing to take risks.
You are willing to walk risk into truth. Basically
that s what it says. Right? And you re like
It impressed me as well. However, we are also
a high-performance culture. Yeah. So one of
the things that I have noticed is like the
belief in perfection or the desire for perfection
is also an impediment to courage because And
this is sort of perfection s right is u know
It I can give you all the data. But I can
just tell you, as a perfectionist and someone
that really deals with trying to be a recovering
perfectionist, it s really hard because perfectionism
I think in the next couple years we ll actually
see perfectionism in the DSM as a process
addiction. opposite of perfectionism is healthy
striving or striving for excellence. So we
see those as opposite sides. People that are
really good at striving for excellence or
healthy strivers are normally not perfectionistic.
People who are perfectionistic normally are
not great at striving for excellence. And
so what happens for us that, for those of
us who really struggle with tionism is the
fool s errand of managing perception. So the
thing about if you think about perfectionism,
I call it the 20 Ton Shield. We carry it around
thinking if I look perfect, work perfect,
act perfect, and do it perfectly I can avoid
or minimize shame, judgment, and blame. So
we use it to protect ourselves. The problem
is anybody in here Who in here would say they
re perfectionistic or struggle with perfectionism?
Like I know where we are, so hands up. Okay.
[Laughter] Bren So I ve seen the Perfect trailer
and the Perfect Art. Like, and, FYI, grateful
for it. [Laughter] Bren But, so for those
of us who struggle with perfectionism, anyone
in here avoid shame, criticism, and blame
successfully your whole life thus far? Like,
yeah, right. It doesn t work. But what the
20 Ton Shield does do is it keeps us from
being seen. And it s exhausting and heavy
and we carry it around. But here s the real
process addiction piece. When as a perfectionist,
I find myself in the groups of shame or judgment
or blame, my self-talk is not, wow, this perfection
thing is just BS, it doesn t work. My self-talk
is I wasn t quite perfect enough. Let me double
down. And so that just becomes this unwinnable
thing. And so what I think is for high-performance
organizations and I work inside them a lot
like here's my conundrum right now. I obsess
on the brand that is Bren Brown Education
and Research Group. Like I approve every font,
every caption on social, any outwardly facing
thing. Is it perfectionistic? I used to think
so until like I read Phil Knight s book around
Nike and kind of this whole like when you
go into these companies that are, that do
well, they obsess on the brand. I m sure y
all obsess on the brand. I know you do because
we were going to edit some of our own photos
and they were like, Not if it has the Netflix
logo on it. You re not going to be doing that.
[Laughter] Bren Yeah, like I was like but
we can do it. No, that s nice. I m glad you
can. But not if it has the Netfl ggle. And
so 
the line I think is And this is what I think
the line is. I was fueling my team s worst
perfectionism until the day I sat down and
said let me explain to you why the font matters.
Let me explain to you why the social captions
need to go this way. Let me explain to you
why inclusivity in stock photos is mandatory
here. Then all the sudden they have the why.
And it s, and because the why for perfectionists,
myself included, is always it has to be perfect.
I use to look at every single thing that comes
out of what we do. Context, color, connective
tissue, cost, consequence. Let me teach you
why the font matters. Let me tell you why
representation in stock image matters. Let
me And now all the sudden it s not like, oh
my God, is it, are we ready to put it in front
of Bren ? Is it perfect yet? And they re like,
you know, they re like Yes, thank you for
that. Thank you for that. You know, I m also
thinking about this issue of trying to do
it perfectly and how it visits all of us,
but I see a whole other deeper version of
it when it comes to people who are used to
being thought of as not as good. Bren For
sure. hing has got to be so perfect. Every
word you say, the way you dress, your hair,
your Everything is so tight because you are
concerned that the least thing you do wrong
will feed the narrative of you as not belonging
here, not earning the right to be here, not
as smart, not as moral, not as capable. So
while everybody is working on this issue,
I see a whole deeper level. And in some ways
what I notice of you say the shield, you can
t be seen. So I, you know, in fact Bren True.
ed is that you re constantly trying to project
a certain image. Like, yeah, I m the special,
okay black person. Men, black men in particular
are constantly dealing with like don t worry,
I m not going to rob you. Like that kind of
thing. Like constantly trying to allay people
s fears. And so consequently what happens
is that you go in and you try to blend. You
try to look like everybody, talk like everybody.
And then you disappear. Bren You disappear.
ure to act, to do your best impression of
the people who are already there and in charge
and in the majority. And as a result, you
get really exhausted. You start compromising
yourself. The authenticity isn t there. And
it s highly difficult to be courageous. Because
to be courageous is to put yourself out there.
To put yourself out there, people might realize
that you re a woman, for goodness sake. You
know, I grew up when lawyers, we had to wear
that bowtie. We had to wear like a tie and
like butto t even like And so I think your
work is so powerful for everybody and, you
know, as a woman of color from a working class
background who, you know, is like a class
straddler and all of that, I find it so powerful
to take back, you know, your humanity and
to say to people, you know, hey, I m going
to keep it high, I m going to aim high. But
I m also okay with being a human being. You
know? With being afraid, with being courageous,
with getting it right sometimes, with getting
it wrong sometimes. Be 
Graduate College of Social Work. So University
of Houston is the most racially, ethnically
diverse research university in the United
States. So my class looks like the world.
I mean, it looks like my kids went to public
elementary school, 51 countries of origin,
first generation represented. Like, because
we have a big medical center. It's just really
But I saw this particular exhaustion in the
black women in my classroom. And I started
mentoring a lot of black women who wanted
to get PhDs after their Master s but didn
t think it was for them. Because they really
said, Well, like, you know, that s like old
white guys with coats. Right? And I m like,
no, like me too. Like. And so I started doing
where I So I went to the stacks because I
was like wanting to understand this phenomenon.
And I came across this book called Shifting.
black woman, lived in Houston. And she said,
Yeah, I m trilingual. And I said, I was like,
oh my God, that s great. What do you speak?
And she goes, Just English. And I was like
what do you mean? And she goes, Well, I m
a med student, so I speak one way when I m
in medical school. I speak one way with my
friends. And I speak one way with my grandparents
and my parents. And lest I ever forget and
mess one of those up. Because if I don t speak
this way in medical school, they ll think
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oppression is the best, I mean, is the most
formidable foe you could ever have. Because
what it doesn t take from you like while you
re watching, it takes from you in ways you
don t understand. That s why like when I tell,
when we talk about the emotional labor to
path, to shift, like that shit kills people.
Like every day people die from that. Like
just the stress and the anxiety and remembering
and, you know, and the cost of doing the wrong
thing in the wrong place. So I think the answer
has to be tw tively. Or if you re like, oh,
I don t really talk about that kind of stuff.
Okay, you re a supporter then. I mean, like,
I mean, just that s my perspective. The same
thing around patriarchy. Like you re either
dismantling it or you re propping it up. So
I think systemically we have to work on those
issues. But we can t lose generations of people
that it could take to change those. So at
the very same time, I think what companies
have to do is put in place mentoring, put
in place champions, put in place ways for
people to gather, to come and say and Because
power and those dynamics are real. Like they
re as real as like that glass of water. And
if people don t have a safe place to talk
about that, the price is too high. The price
is too high. And so I think high performance
is great. I believe in it. I believe in obsessing
on the brand. But if you don t acknowledge
that there s a system in place already when
people come to work here that absolutely privileges
some and puts others at a huge disadvantage,
you will never ever have the diversity of
a company. Like, and this, and for y all,
like more so than maybe any, maybe a couple
companies where, that I work with are super
global. You will never be fully successful
in the long run unless the people here reflect
the people you serve. dirty word if you know
yours and use it on behalf of others to dismantle
the system. Right? So it s like you can t,
right, you can t do anything about privilege
because the whole idea is that it was unearned
advantage created long time ago, weren t alive.
You don t believe in it, but you re still
benefiting from it. Each of us can find a
way 
that we do it every day. Bren Every day, yes.
cing it and then figuring out how to use it.
And then the other thing that you said, which
is that you ve got to create these kinds of
systems and opportunities and relationships
that tries to offset some reality of what
exists here. And what I think about is, if
we want people to take risks, right, if we
want people to bring their full self, if we
want people to be vulnerable, we ve got to
create the kind of environment that suggests
that they can survive that risk. Bren Yes.
An envi-, a culture u know, like you said,
we re all over the world now. And like even
when you call a meeting, what time is it?
Even when you ask for input from the people
on VC, how long do you wait to hear from them?
You know, it s like, oh, and we had some colleagues
from another country. And they re like, re
with you on the VC. You re talking. We re
with you. Then someone makes a joke. We don
t understand the joke. We know it s a joke.
But then the conversation starts going really,
really fast. And then we are way out now.
We have no idea what s happening. And something
as small as that, of saying maybe I should
slow down or maybe I should think about my
jokes or maybe my jokes aren t as funny as
they used to be, given the fact that we have
different people here at this table. Or, you
know, so all of the vocabulary, the language,
the patience, the seeking of information.
But this is something that I think is also
really important for this work of creating
inclusion, which is the courage to be destabilized
es and atrophy. Like if you re not destabilized,
you re not fricking paying attention today.
Like you know what I mean? [Applause] Bren
Like it s like we need to be You know, and,
you know, it s so interesting because one
of the forms of armor that I wear sometimes
when I m scared is the knower. Like I need,
like do I need to be the knower? Like do I
need to be the knower here? Like, and the
opposite of armor is curiosity. You just have
to stay curious. And like in Hong Kong. Because
we know they have great ideas because 9 times
out of 10, we ll end up implementing against
their ideas, not ours. But they don t share
them on the phone with us. And I don t know
what s happening. I was like, well, what did
they say is happening when you asked? And
he s like, and he said literally, Can you
tell me what to say? And I said I can because
I m afraid for your colleagues right now.
So I ll just say [Laughter] Bren I will help
you in this instance. I ll say just say, hey,
I noticed that y all are not contributing
a lot during the calls. What does support
look like? Your ideas really matter. And he
was like, Okay. hu+c hL<E h1iS hX*M hRWu hRWu
h][= h][= h][= hkea hkea bly in English and
not 
in whatever they re accustomed to. Bren Yeah.
Right. And I was like so what did they say?
They said, If you could just send the agenda
five to seven hours in advance, that feels
more respectful to us because then we can
bring our thoughts together. We, unlike y
all, are not one to share thoughts that 
are not formulated. h. And maybe I ll even
say it better and give myself credit and not
to the one who initially said it. But I guess
I wanted to end also with your thought about
something that I have been recognizing in
my own life and in the lives of my colleagues,
which is that in order to get better at creating
these kinds of environments where people can
feel respected and connected and belonging,
it s like a contact sport. Bren Full on. ittle
worlds. And this is our world. And we re not
going outside that much. Some of us are outside.
Okay? And some of us have families that are
very different and diverse, whatever. But
it seems that people want to play it safe.
And they just, like they want to read a script
that you could give them. They want to read
a book. But they don t want to get close.
And so Because of course that could be, show
vulnerability. Bren Uncomfortable. Yeah. tweeting
with her the other day. And she s retired
now, but she was a CEO and has led D&I before
D&I was a thing. And she said, If you re not
leading a diverse life, you cannot lead a
diverse team or a diverse organization. You
know? And so like for a lot of people, like
a lot of white folks are like what does that
mean? Everybo-. Like trade out my kids? Or
like what do I do? [Laughter] Bren And it
s like, but this is where I think Netflix
is actually super powerful. It s consume film,
books, do things outside of your world where
everything s produced and made by people that
look like you and believe like you. Like,
and go to other people. Not just bring them
into where it s safe and known for you. Like
explore, invite, know. And this is not just
for white folks. This is for all 
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