ANNOUNCER: PRESENTATION OF
"DIALOGUE" ON IDAHO PUBLIC
TELEVISION IS MADE POSSIBLE
THROUGH THE GENEROUS SUPPORT OF
THE LAURA MOORE CUNNINGHAM
FOUNDATION, COMMITTED TO
FULFILLING THE MOORE AND BETTIS
FAMILY LEGACY OF BUILDING THE
GREAT STATE OF IDAHO, BY THE
FRIENDS OF IDAHO PUBLIC
TELEVISION, AND BY THE
CORPORATION FOR PUBLIC
BROADCASTING.
ANDREW FINSTUEN,
PROFESSOR, BOISE STATE
UNIVERSITY: IT'S THAT NOTION OF
THERE'S NEVER JUST A SIMPLY GOOD
THING THAT HAPPENS, AND RARELY
IS THERE SIMPLY AN EVIL THING
THAT HAPPENS.
WE'RE TIED UP IN THAT.
MARCIA FRANKLIN, HOST: COMING
UP, A CONVERSATION ABOUT ONE OF
OUR COUNTRY'S GREATEST PUBLIC
INTELLECTUALS: REINHOLD NIEBUHR.
THAT'S "DIALOGUE".
STAY TUNED.
(MUSIC)
NARRATOR, IN "AN AMERICAN
CONSCIENCE: THE REINHOLD NIEBUHR
STORY": HE MAY BE BEST KNOWN AS
AUTHOR OF THE FAMOUS SERENITY
PRAYER.
REINHOLD NIEBUHR, IN "AN
AMERICAN CONSCIENCE: THE
REINHOLD NIEBUHR STORY": GOD,
GIVE US GRACE TO ACCEPT WITH
SERENITY THE THINGS THAT CANNOT
BE CHANGED...
NARRATOR: BUT AMERICAN-BORN
REINHOLD NIEBUHR, A THEOLOGIAN,
A CELEBRATED WRITER, AND A
PROGRESSIVE SOCIAL THINKER,
BROUGHT A DISTINCT AND PROPHETIC
VOICE TO SOME OF THE MOST
DEFINING YEARS IN AMERICA'S
HISTORY.
FRANKLIN: HELLO AND WELCOME TO
"DIALOGUE".
I'M MARCIA FRANKLIN.
YOU WERE JUST LISTENING TO A
CLIP FROM A PBS DOCUMENTARY
CALLED "AN AMERICAN CONSCIENCE:
THE REINHOLD NIEBUHR STORY."
IT CHRONICLES THE LIFE AND WORK
OF ONE OF AMERICA'S MOST
PREEMINENT THINKERS.
REINHOLD NIEBUHR, WHO WAS BORN
IN 1892 AND DIED IN 1971, WAS A
PROTESTANT MINISTER AND A
PROFESSOR AT UNION THEOLOGICAL
SEMINARY IN NEW YORK FOR MORE
THAN 30 YEARS.
KNOWN AS A "PUBLIC THEOLOGIAN,"
HE WAS OFTEN CALLED UPON TO GIVE
HIS OPINION ON ETHICAL AND MORAL
ISSUES OF HIS DAY.
NIEBUHR'S SPEECHES AND HIS
PROLIFIC WRITING, WHICH INCLUDE
THE BOOKS "MORAL MAN AND IMMORAL
SOCIETY," "THE NATURE AND
DESTINY OF MAN," AND "THE IRONY
OF AMERICAN HISTORY," INFLUENCED
LEADERS ON ALL SIDES OF THE
POLITICAL SPECTRUM.
IN MARCH 2017, I SAT DOWN WITH
THE DIRECTOR OF THE DOCUMENTARY
ABOUT NIEBUHR, MARTIN DOBLMEIER,
AND ONE OF ITS PRODUCERS, BOISE
STATE PROFESSOR AND DEAN ANDREW
FINSTUEN.
WE TALKED ABOUT THE FILM'S
GENESIS, AND WHY THEY FELT THE
TIME WAS RIGHT TO BRING NIEBUHR
INTO THE SPOTLIGHT AGAIN.
FRANKLIN: WELCOME TO BOISE.
I'M SURE THIS IS FUN FOR YOU,
ANDREW, BECAUSE THIS IS WHERE
THIS IDEA WAS GENERATED, RIGHT
HERE IN BOISE, IN THE
"NIEBUHR-HOOD," SO TO SPEAK, AS
YOUR STUDENTS WOULD SAY, BECAUSE
YOU KIND OF HAVE A THING FOR
NIEBUHR.
FINSTUEN: YES.
FRANKLIN: AS I UNDERSTAND IT
THIS STARTED BECAUSE YOU HAD A
BIT OF A FRUSTRATION THAT THERE
WASN'T SOMETHING OUT THERE, A
DOCUMENTARY ABOUT NIEBUHR.
TALK ABOUT THAT.
FINSTUEN: RIGHT.
ABSOLUTELY.
SO, I HAD DONE SOME WORK ON
REINHOLD NIEBUHR DURING MY
DOCTORAL DAYS AND PUBLISHED A
BOOK THAT -- HE'S PART OF THAT.
AND THEN I WAS JUST THINKING,
"WHY DON'T WE HAVE AN "AMERICAN
EXPERIENCE"-TYPE FILM OR SOME
SORT OF DOCUMENTARY THAT
CHRONICLES HIS LIFE BOTH FOR ITS
INFLUENCE ON INTERNATIONAL
RELATIONS IN POLITICS, BUT ALSO
IN TERMS OF JUST TELLING THE
20TH CENTURY STORY THROUGH THIS
FIGURE'S LIFE AND CAREER?"
AND I JUST CONTINUALLY GOT
FRUSTRATED THAT IT WASN'T OUT
THERE.
AND SO ONE DAY, I SAID TO
INGRID, MY WIFE, I SAID, "I
THINK I'M GOING TO TRY TO MAKE
IT."
SO I MADE A PHONE CALL TO A
FRIEND WHO IS CONNECTED TO ROBIN
LOVIN, WHO'S A MAJOR NIEBUHR
SCHOLAR.
ONCE HE WAS INTERESTED IN THE
IDEA, THEN I MADE SOME CALLS TO
GRANT ORGANIZATIONS, AND THEY
PUT ME IN TOUCH WITH MARTIN.
AND SO I CALLED MARTIN UP, COLD
CALL, AND DESCRIBED THE IDEA TO
HIM.
AND WITHIN THAT FIRST
CONVERSATION, MARTIN WAS
INTERESTED, VERY INTERESTED.
AND HE SAID, "WELL, NIEBUHR'S
AMERICA'S CONSCIENCE."
AND SO WE HAD THE TITLE FROM DAY
ONE.
AND THE CONVERSATION JUST
CONTINUED FROM THERE.
FRANKLIN: WHY DID YOU FEEL IT
WAS SO IMPORTANT TO HAVE A
DOCUMENTARY OUT THERE ABOUT
NIEBUHR?
FINSTUEN: WELL, AS A HISTORIAN,
HE TOUCHES MANY OF THE CURRENTS
OF AMERICAN LIFE IN THE 20TH
CENTURY, FROM INDUSTRIALIZATION
TO THE BLACK MIGRATION FROM THE
SOUTH TO THE NORTH AND DETROIT,
TO THE COLD WAR, WORLD WAR II --
I'M GOING OUT OF CHRONOLOGY, FOR
A HISTORIAN -- BUT NEVERTHELESS,
ALL OF THE STREAMS OF 20TH
CENTURY LIFE, HE'S A TOUCHSTONE
FOR THOSE.
AND HE'S ASKING TOUGH QUESTIONS
OF AMERICA, AND, MEANWHILE, ALSO
A CHAMPION OF AMERICA.
SO THAT DIALECTIC, THAT
AMBIGUITY OF HIS APPROACH, WHICH
IS REALLY RICH FOR, I THINK, HIS
DAY, HIS GENERATION AND OURS.
SO THAT'S WHY I THOUGHT IT WAS
SIGNIFICANT.
FRANKLIN: NOW, MARTIN, THIS IS
NOT A PERSON THAT WAS UNFAMILIAR
TO YOU.
YOU, TOO, HAVE APPRECIATED
NIEBUHR AND HAVE DONE MANY
DOCUMENTARIES ON ISSUES OF FAITH
AND RELIGION, SO IT'S ALMOST A
PERFECT MATCH, WASN'T IT?
MARTIN DOBLMEIER, DIRECTOR: OH,
IT WAS IDEAL.
AND I HAVE TO SAY, HONESTLY,
BECAUSE WE'VE BEEN DOING FILMS,
NOW, FOR 30-SOME YEARS, I
PROBABLY GET APPROACHED ONCE A
WEEK OR TWICE A WEEK, SOMETIMES,
WITH PEOPLE WHO'VE GOT FILM
IDEAS.
AND SO, SERIOUSLY, PEOPLE
CALLING UP AND, "OH, YOU SHOULD
MAKE A MOVIE ABOUT MY FATHER,"
OR SOMETHING.
IT'S RATHER CONSTANT.
BUT WHEN I -- I, ACTUALLY,
TALKED TO ANDREW ON THE PHONE,
AND IT WASN'T A FILM PROJECT
ABOUT HIMSELF.
IT WAS AN IDEA THAT RESONATED
IMMEDIATELY WITH ME.
I'D READ NIEBUHR IN COLLEGE.
BUT I READ HIM AS A YOUNG MAN,
AND I WAS MUCH MORE IDEALISTIC,
IN SOME WAY, AND SOME OF IT
REALLY JUST DIDN'T CONNECT.
AND THEN GOING BACK AND LOOKING
AT NIEBUHR, NOW, MUCH LATER IN
LIFE, AND HAVING ALL THE
EXPERIENCES OF LIFE AND SEEING
HOW ON TARGET HE WAS CONSTANTLY
ABOUT HUMAN NATURE AND THE USE
AND ABUSE OF POWER AND ALL OF
THIS, AND IT RESONATED, SO...
I DO REMEMBER THAT CONVERSATION.
HE WAS RATHER SELF-EFFACING,
ANDREW, AND JUST SORT OF WANTED
TO PRESENT THE IDEA AND GET THE
CONVERSATION GOING.
AND JUST SOMETHING INSIDE OF ME
SPARKED, AND I JUST LIKED THE
WAY THAT HE PRESENTED THE IDEA,
AND IT JUST TOOK OFF FROM THERE.
FRANKLIN: NIEBUHR'S LIKED BY
PEOPLE ON ALL, ON BOTH ENDS OF
THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM.
I MEAN PRESIDENT OBAMA LOOKED
TOWARDS HIM, BUT SO DID PEOPLE
WHO ARE CONSERVATIVE.
FINSTUEN: JOHN MCCAIN HAS CITED
HIM.
DAVID BROOKS, OBVIOUSLY.
AND BROOKS MAKES THE POINT IN
THE FILM THAT
NEO-CONSERVATIVES...NIEBUHR, AND
DURING THE RUN-UP TO THE IRAQ
WAR, FOR EXAMPLE, SOME OF THE
NEO-CONSERVATIVES WERE LOOKING
AT NIEBUHR AS SOMEBODY WHO
OFFERS A THEOLOGICAL, ETHICAL
JUSTIFICATION FOR WAR.
ALTHOUGH, NIEBUHR ALSO WRITES
THAT PREVENTIVE WAR IS NEVER --
AND ANDREW BACEVICH MAKES THIS
POINT -- IS NEVER APPROPRIATE
FOR A DEMOCRACY.
SO THERE'S LOTS OF TENSION IN
NIEBUHR'S THOUGHT.
AND BECAUSE OF THAT AMBIGUITY I
MENTIONED A MOMENT AGO, YOU CAN
FIND AFFINITY ACROSS THE
POLITICAL SPECTRUM.
NIEBUHR HIMSELF DESCRIBED
HIMSELF AS A POLITICAL LIBERAL
AND A THEOLOGICAL CONSERVATIVE.
BUT EVEN THOSE TERMS -- YOU'LL
HAVE ARGUMENTS OVER WHETHER
FOLKS THINK HE'S LIBERAL ENOUGH
OR NOT, AND THE CONSERVATIVE
PIECE ON THE THEOLOGICAL
SPECTRUM IS A QUESTION MARK, BUT
THAT'S HOW HE THOUGHT OF
HIMSELF.
DOBLMEIER: AND I THINK PART OF
IT, TOO, IS THAT SOMETIMES YOU
HAVE TO ASK, "WELL, WHICH
REINHOLD NIEBUHR?"
BECAUSE HE WENT THROUGH SO MANY
EVOLUTIONS OF HIS THINKING ABOUT
PASSIVISM VERSUS INTERVENTION,
SOCIALISM VERSUS, YOU KNOW, HOW
THE ECONOMIC WEALTH IS GOING TO
BE DISTRIBUTED.
SO WHAT'S INTERESTING IS WHEN
JOHN MCCAIN SAYS HE ADMIRES
REINHOLD NIEBUHR, HE MAY BE
ADMIRING A VERY DIFFERENT
REINHOLD NIEBUHR THAN BARACK
OBAMA IS.
FRANKLIN: REINHOLD NIEBUHR WAS
KNOWN, IS KNOWN, AS A PUBLIC
THEOLOGIAN.
HE, THESE WERE RELIGIOUS PEOPLE
WHO WERE VERY PROMINENT IN THE,
BASICALLY, '30S THROUGH '60S, UP
TO THE '60S, WOULD YOU SAY?
AND MEDIA WOULD TURN TO THESE
INDIVIDUALS TO ASK THEM FOR
THEIR OPINIONS ON THE BIG ISSUES
OF THE DAY.
IN FACT, TODAY, I NOTICED, IS
THE 69TH, EXACT 69TH ANNIVERSARY
OF THE COVER OF "TIME MAGAZINE"
FEATURING NIEBUHR.
HE WAS THAT IMPORTANT THAT THEY
PUT HIM ON THE COVER FOR THEIR
25TH ANNIVERSARY OF "TIME
MAGAZINE."
WHY WERE PUBLIC THEOLOGIANS SO
CRITICAL IN THIS TIME PERIOD?
AND DO WE HAVE ANY TODAY?
FINSTUEN: THAT'S AN EXCELLENT
QUESTION, AND WE'RE ASKED IT
OFTEN IN RELATIONSHIP TO
NIEBUHR.
I MEAN, I THINK PART OF IT IS
THE ERA OF A MORE CONSOLIDATED
MEDIA MARKET, MORE AROUND COMMON
LANGUAGE, COMMON VOCABULARY.
I THINK AT THE 1950S, IN
PARTICULAR, THERE'S THIS NOTION
OF AN AMERICAN CIVIL RELIGION
THAT SORT OF BLENDS TRADITIONAL
CHRISTIAN IDEAS AND AMERICAN
REPUBLICANISM.
AND I'M NOT SURE WE'RE IN THE
SAME PLACE WITH THAT TODAY.
AND THAT'S NOT NECESSARILY A BAD
THING.
THERE WAS A WAY IN WHICH THAT
ERA IS CALLED THE "ERA OF
CONSENSUS," AND THAT CONSENSUS
MAYBE KEPT SOME GROUPS WHO WERE
MARGINALIZED FROM ACTUALLY
HAVING A VOICE.
NEVERTHELESS, THERE'S A KIND OF
COMMON VOCABULARY, COMMON
MOMENT, AND THE THEOLOGIANS AND
ALSO OTHER BIG INTELLECTUALS OF
THE DAY ARE ASKING BIG QUESTIONS
AND WRITING BIG BOOKS.
IT'S A POINT THAT DAVID BROOKS
MAKES IN THE FILM, AS WELL.
SO IT'S A WHOLE ERA OF -- I
THINK IN SOME SENSE, ALSO --
REEVALUATION OF THE AMERICAN
MOMENT.
BECAUSE YOU'RE COMING OFF OF
WORLD WAR II, AND THE WORLD HAS
DRAMATICALLY TRANSFORMED AND
CHANGED BECAUSE OF THE
DESTRUCTION OF EUROPE, AND NOW
AMERICA TRULY IS THE LONE
SUPERPOWER, EVEN IF WE HAVE THE
SOVIET UNION ON THE RISE, AS
WELL.
AND SO IT'S A REALLY -- IT'S A
TIME OF EVALUATION AND
REEVALUATION.
WHO ARE WE?
WHERE ARE WE HEADED?
WHAT'S OUR DESTINY?
THESE KINDS OF MAJOR QUESTIONS
SURFACED.
AND I THINK THAT'S PART OF IT.
AND AS FAR AS TODAY GOES, THE
DIFFUSION OF OUR MEDIA AND
INFORMATION, WHETHER WE ASK BIG
QUESTIONS.
I'LL PICK ON THE ACADEMY, THE
UNIVERSITIES.
I'M NOT SURE, I THINK WE'VE
HYPER-SPECIALIZED TO A POINT
WHERE WE'VE LOST A KIND OF
NARRATIVE OF OUR OWN AMERICAN
EXPERIMENT.
DOBLMEIER: I THINK -- THAT'S A
GREAT RESPONSE, BECAUSE I DO
THINK THAT, IN SOME WAYS,
REINHOLD NIEBUHR AS A PUBLIC
THEOLOGIAN IS SORT OF A
MICROCOSMIC LOOK AT HOW
AMERICA'S CHANGED OVER THESE
LAST TWO GENERATIONS FROM HIS
TIME.
THE MEDIA, LIKE ANDREW SAID, IS
A VERY DIFFERENT PLACE THAN IT
WAS BEFORE.
IN THE 1940S AND '50S, WHEN
REINHOLD NIEBUHR WINDS UP ON
THAT COVER OF "TIME MAGAZINE,"
THE MEDIA IS RATHER MONOLITHIC
IN SOME WAYS.
THERE'S A HANDFUL OF TELEVISION
NETWORKS, THERE'S A HANDFUL OF
RADIO NETWORKS, A HANDFUL OF
MAJOR PUBLICATIONS, AND IF THEY
LIKED YOU, AND YOU WERE ONE OF
THEIR DARLINGS, YOU WOULD WIND
UP A CELEBRITY IN THAT KIND OF
ARENA.
WE HAVE A VERY DIFFERENT MEDIA
TODAY.
THERE'S A DIFFERENT WAY THAT THE
MEDIA LOOKS AT RELIGION.
IT WAS UNDERSTOOD BACK IN THE
'40S AND '50S THAT RELIGION WAS
PART OF AMERICAN LIFE, AND IT
WAS GOING TO CARVE OUT A PLACE
FOR THOSE KIND OF PEOPLE TO
SPEAK ABOUT THAT.
MAINLINE PROTESTANTISM WAS THE
DOMINANT RELIGION IN AMERICA.
FRANKLIN: 90 PERCENT OF THE
PEOPLE?
DOBLMEIER: IT'S NOT THAT WAY
ANYMORE IN THIS COUNTRY, AND
ESPECIALLY NON-CHRISTIAN.
AND PEOPLE IDENTIFY THEMSELVES
NOW AS THE "NONES," PEOPLE WHO
DON'T HAVE -- THEY'RE SPIRITUAL,
BUT THEY'RE NOT RELIGIOUS.
WELL, WHO SPEAKS FOR THEM?
I DON'T THINK THEY'RE REALLY
OPEN TO THE NOTION OF A MAINLINE
PROTESTANT THEOLOGIAN SPEAKING
ON BEHALF OF THEIR IDEALS.
FRANKLIN: WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
"NONES," N-O-N-E.
DOBLMEIER: N-O-N-E, YES,
ABSOLUTELY.
FRANKLIN: NOT N-U-N.
DOBLMEIER: NOT N-U-N-S.
AND THEN THE LAST THING, TOO, IS
THE WHOLE NOTION OF -- WITHIN
THE WORLD OF THE MEDIA, JUST THE
NOTION OF RELIGIOUS LITERACY.
I THINK IT'S NOT QUITE THE SAME
AS IT WAS BACK IN THE '40S AND
'50S.
FINSTUEN: WELL, I WOULD LIKE TO
ADD, TOO, THE QUESTION ON THE
FIGURES, BUT IT'S ALSO A
QUESTION OF AUDIENCE.
ARE WE -- DO WE HAVE AN AMERICAN
PUBLIC THAT WANTS TO THE LISTEN
AND DIALOGUE -- TO PICK UP ON
YOUR SHOW -- WITH A SUSTAINED
ATTENTION TO THESE KEY, BIG
QUESTIONS?
SO, IN SOME WAYS, THE CONTEXT
ISN'T SUPPORTIVE OF A FIGURE
THAT CAN -- OR FIGURES THAT
CONTINUE TO ASK THESE QUESTIONS,
HAVE THESE CRITICAL PERSPECTIVES
WITHOUT BEING MARGINALIZED
EITHER AS ONE STRIPE OR ANOTHER
IN THE POLITICAL OR RELIGIOUS
SPECTRUM OR SHOUTED DOWN, OR
WHAT HAVE YOU.
I'M NOT SURE WE HAVE AN AUDIENCE
THAT'S REALLY ASKING AND PAYING
ATTENTION TO THESE QUESTIONS.
FRANKLIN: YOU MENTIONED THAT
MAJOR MEDIA ENTITIES WOULD TURN
TO NIEBUHR AND OTHERS LIKE HIM,
INCLUDING MIKE WALLACE.
AND YOU HAVE A VERY INTERESTING
CLIP, I THINK, IN YOUR
DOCUMENTARY IN WHICH MIKE
WALLACE IS INTERVIEWING
MR. NIEBUHR.
LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT THAT.
MIKE WALLACE, IN "AN AMERICAN
CONSCIENCE: THE REINHOLD NIEBUHR
STORY": DO YOU THINK THAT
BECAUSE YOU'RE A CHRISTIAN
YOU'RE A MORE VALUABLE MAN IN
OUR SOCIETY?
OR MORE WORTHY IN THE EYES OF
GOD?
NIEBUHR: CERTAINLY ANYBODY THAT
SAYS, "IN THE EYES OF GOD," IS
PRETENTIOUS.
HOW DO I KNOW ABOUT GOD'S
JUDGMENT?
ONE OF THE FUNDAMENTAL POINTS
ABOUT RELIGIOUS HUMILITY IS THAT
YOU SAY YOU DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE
ULTIMATE JUDGMENT.
IT'S BEYOND YOUR JUDGMENT.
AND IF YOU EQUATE GOD'S JUDGMENT
WITH YOUR JUDGMENT, YOU HAVE A
WRONG RELIGION.
FRANKLIN: SO THIS, IN SOME WAYS,
KIND OF SUMS UP OR GETS TO THE
CORE OF WHAT NIEBUHR WAS ABOUT
WHEN HE TALKS ABOUT HUMILITY,
HUMILITY.
HE SAYS, "ONE OF THE FUNDAMENTAL
POINTS ABOUT RELIGIOUS HUMILITY
IS YOU SAY YOU DON'T KNOW ABOUT
THE ULTIMATE JUDGMENT.
IF YOU EQUATE GOD'S JUDGMENT
WITH YOUR JUDGMENT, YOU HAVE A
WRONG RELIGION."
PRETTY BIG STUFF TO BE SAYING
WHEN 90 PERCENT OF THE COUNTRY
IS PROTESTANT.
AND HE'S JUST KIND OF SAYING,
"YOU KNOW, YOU MIGHT HAVE SOME
FALSE HUMILITY HERE."
FINSTUEN: RIGHT.
WELL, I MEAN, AND NIEBUHR WRITES
A LOT ABOUT HUMILITY.
AND PART OF THE DOCTRINE THAT HE
PAYS THE MOST ATTENTION TO IS
THE DOCTRINE OF ORIGINAL SIN.
NOW, HE THINKS ABOUT IT
DIFFERENTLY.
I WON'T GO INTO THE FINER POINTS
OF HIS THEOLOGY ON THIS.
BUT, FOR HIM, THAT IS MORE A
DOCTRINE ABOUT HUMILITY.
HE ALSO HAS A NOTION OF THE
IMAGE OF GOD AND HUMANITY.
SO HE WANTS TO AFFIRM HUMANITY
BUT ALSO REMIND HUMANITY THAT WE
SHOULD THINK OF OURSELVES AS
LEVELED; AND THAT, HE SAYS, IS
THE SUREST FORM OF HUMAN
COMMUNITY.
IF WE CAN UNDERSTAND THAT ALL
HAVE FALLEN, ALL FALL SHORT.
AND CHRISTIANS UNDERSTAND THAT
AT SOME LEVEL, BUT THEN OFTEN
MOVE THAT INTO A PRIDEFUL KIND
OF ARTICULATION: "I'M MORE
RIGHTEOUS, MY VIRTUE IS MORE
DEVELOPED."
AND NIEBUHR JUST KIND OF
CONSTANTLY WANTS TO REMIND AND
SAY, "YES, WE HAVE TO MAKE
DISTINCTIONS BETWEEN PEOPLE IN
OUR CIVIL SOCIETY, BUT,
ULTIMATELY, WE ARE LEVEL BEFORE
GOD," AND THAT IS WHAT GIVES US
POSSIBILITY FOR HUMAN COMMUNITY,
BECAUSE IT'S THE RECOGNITION OF
THE HUMANITY IN EACH OTHER.
FRANKLIN: WELL, AND IT'S A GUT
CHECK, ISN'T IT, FOR PEOPLE TO
SAY, "OKAY, I ESPOUSE THESE
PRECEPTS OR I SAY I FOLLOW THE
TEN COMMANDMENTS, BUT AM I
REALLY?"
I MEAN, HE TALKS A LOT ABOUT THE
DUALITY BETWEEN GOOD AND EVIL OR
THE DUALITY THAT EXISTS IN
EVERYONE.
EVEN IF YOU'RE DOING SOMETHING
GOOD, IT MAY BE TINGED WITH SIN,
IN THE SENSE OF, SAY, PRIDE OR
HUBRIS, AND TO CONSTANTLY BE
CHECKING THAT.
DOBLMEIER: AND I THINK PART OF
THE REASON WHY HE'S SO
SUCCESSFUL AS A PUBLIC
THEOLOGIAN, HE APPLIES THAT
NOTION OF HUMILITY AND THE GUT
CHECK NOT ONLY TO INDIVIDUALS
BUT TO SOCIETIES, TO CHURCHES,
TO NATIONS.
I MEAN, HE'S SPEAKING TO A
NATION, NOW, THAT'S COMING OUT
OF THE SECOND WORLD WAR, AND WE
ARE THE RANKING NATION THAT'S
HOLDING UP THIS WHOLE NOTION OF
A CIVILIZATION, WESTERN
CIVILIZATION.
AND HE WANTS AMERICA TO THINK
THAT NOT ONLY DOES THIS APPLY TO
INDIVIDUALS, BUT THIS ALSO
APPLIES TO THE AMERICA THAT
WE'RE CONTINUING TO REBUILD,
NOW, AFTER THE SECOND WORLD WAR.
AND SO I THINK THAT'S WHAT GETS
HIM ON THE COVER OF "TIME
MAGAZINE," TO SAY THAT IT'S NOT
JUST AS INDIVIDUALS WE HAVE TO
THINK ABOUT THIS, BUT AS IN A
LARGER CORPORATE SENSE.
AND HE'S OFTEN JUST AS CRITICAL
OF THE CHURCHES.
THAT'S WHAT I FIND TO BE REALLY
INTERESTING.
AND, YOU KNOW, THEN HE WOULD GO
OUT AND SPEAK ON A REGULAR
BASIS.
HE WAS SPEAKING AND PREACHING
ALL THE TIME.
BUT, OFTENTIMES, THE CHURCHES
WEREN'T INVITING HIM TO COME AND
SPEAK.
THEY WERE ANXIOUS ABOUT WHAT HE
WAS GOING TO SAY.
IT WAS THE CHAPLAIN AT THE
UNIVERSITIES, MORE OFTEN THAN
NOT, THAT WOULD INVITE HIM TO
COME AND SPEAK, BECAUSE THEY
FELT IT WAS MORE OF AN OPEN
FORUM FOR HIM TO BE ABLE TO
SPEAK AND, SOMETIMES, CRITICALLY
ABOUT WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN
AMERICA.
FRANKLIN: WELL, THIS WAS THE
THING, WASN'T IT, THAT HE SAW,
EVEN IN HIS OWN PARISH, SAY,
THAT PEOPLE WOULD BE LOVELY
PEOPLE INDIVIDUALLY, RIGHT, BUT
THEN SOMETHING ABOUT COMING
TOGETHER IN A GROUP WOULD BRING
OUT SOME NEFARIOUS ACTIVITY OR,
AT LEAST, A BLIND EYE TO -- IN
HIS INSTANCE, SAY, WHEN HE WAS
IN DETROIT, NOT UNDERSTANDING
THE PLIGHT OF THE WORKER --
FINSTUEN: RIGHT.
FRANKLIN: -- AMONG HIS
PARISHIONERS, MANY OF WHOM WERE
IN MANAGEMENT AT FORD.
SO THERE, AGAIN, THIS DUALITY
BETWEEN INDIVIDUAL AND GROUP.
FINSTUEN: RIGHT.
I MEAN, AND YOU'RE OUTLINING
VERY NICELY THE ARGUMENT IN
"MORAL MAN AND IMMORAL SOCIETY."
INDIVIDUALS MIGHT BE ABLE TO
ACCOMPLISH CERTAIN DEGREES OF
MORALITY OR VIRTUE; GROUPS IT'S
HARDER.
BUT LATER IN LIFE -- I WANT TO
MAKE SURE THIS POINT IS MADE --
HE SAYS, "I KIND OF WISH I HAD
RETITLED THAT 'IMMORAL MAN AND
IMMORAL SOCIETY,' IN THE SENSE
THAT MAYBE I MADE TOO FINE A
DISTINCTION."
YES, GROUPS CAN TEND TO BE MORE
IMMORAL, BUT LET'S NOT FORGET,
AS YOU POINTED OUT EARLIER, THAT
WE ARE SORT OF DIVIDED WITHIN
OURSELVES.
WE ARE SINNERS, TO USE HIS
LANGUAGE, AND SAINTS
SIMULTANEOUSLY.
IT'S THAT NOTION OF THERE'S
NEVER JUST A SIMPLY GOOD THING
THAT HAPPENS, AND RARELY IS
THERE SIMPLY AN EVIL THING THAT
HAPPENS.
WE'RE TIED UP IN THAT.
THAT'S KIND OF THE COMPLEXITY
AND THE GLORY AND TRAGEDY OF
BEING A HUMAN BEING.
AND THEN IT'S ABOUT HOW THOSE
CAPACITIES GET EXERCISED.
HE SAYS, "HUMANS HAVE THE
INDETERMINATE CAPACITY FOR GOOD,
AND HUMANS HAVE THE
INDETERMINATE CAPACITY FOR EVIL,
AND, YET, IT'S STILL CONNECTED.
DON'T EVER SEPARATE THEM."
AND WHEN YOU TRY TO SEPARATE
THEM IS WHEN YOU HAVE TROUBLE.
FRANKLIN: AND AMERICANS IN
PARTICULAR SEEM TO OFTEN WANT TO
HAVE THIS BLACK AND WHITE,
GOOD/BAD, YES/NO.
AND HE'S SAYING, "LOOK, EVEN
WHEN IT COMES TO YOUR OWN
COUNTRY..."
AT THE HEIGHT OF THE COLD WAR,
HE'S SAYING, "GUT CHECK AGAIN.
YES, THE SOVIET UNION IS AN
ENEMY" --
FINSTUEN: RIGHT.
FRANKLIN: -- "BUT THEY'RE
PEOPLE, TOO, AND YOU CAN'T JUST
MAKE THIS ARTIFICIAL DIVIDING
LINE, THEY'RE BAD, WE'RE GOOD."
FINSTUEN: EXACTLY.
FRANKLIN: AGAIN, PRETTY BRAVE
THING TO SAY.
FINSTUEN: YEAH.
AND, IN FACT, WHAT HE'LL SAY IS
YOU OFTEN -- IF YOU HAVE THAT
KIND OF MANICHAEAN -- THAT'S
KIND OF THE THEOLOGICAL TERM --
THAT BLACK-AND-WHITE NOTION, YOU
WILL OFTEN END UP REPEATING AND
LOOKING LIKE YOUR ENEMY, ITSELF.
SO BE VERY CAREFUL ABOUT HOW
MUCH YOU DISTINGUISH YOURSELF
FROM ANOTHER, BOTH INDIVIDUALLY,
COMMUNITY, AND, AS YOU'RE
POINTING OUT, NATIONS.
DOBLMEIER: WHEN I'D READ NIEBUHR
IN SCHOOL -- I MEAN I'D BE
READING THEOLOGY IN SCHOOL -- I
HAD NO IDEA THAT HE'S ON THE FBI
WATCH LIST FOR DECADES.
SO YOU WERE SAYING A PRETTY BOLD
THING FOR HIM TO BE ABLE TO SAY.
I MEAN, THINK ABOUT THE NOTION
OF A THEOLOGIAN BEING ON THE FBI
WATCH LIST.
FRANKLIN: AND THAT'S BECAUSE
THEY THOUGHT, "OH, HE'S" --
WELL, HE ASSOCIATED WITH
SOCIALISM --
FINSTUEN: RIGHT.
FRANKLIN: -- BUT WITH THESE TYPE
OF COMMENTS, HE'S THINKING,
"WELL, MAYBE HE'S A COMMUNIST,
TOO."
DOBLMEIER: BUT HE STAYS ON THE
LIST.
FRANKLIN: UM-HMM.
DOBLMEIER: AND, YET, THE IRONY,
AS WE TRY TO SHOW IN THE FILM,
IS THAT HE'S BEING INVITED INTO
THE INNER CIRCLES TO CREATE
POLICY WHILE HE'S STILL ON THE
LIST.
HE'S BEING GIVEN THE
PRESIDENTIAL MEDAL OF FREEDOM,
BY PRESIDENT JOHNSON, WHILE HE'S
STILL ON THIS LIST.
SO IT'S SORT OF THIS -- WELL,
HIS OWN LIFE IS SORT OF LIKE
THIS INTERESTING DICHOTOMY
BETWEEN BEING RECOGNIZED AND
CELEBRATED AND BEING A PERSON OF
CONCERN.
FRANKLIN: ONE THING THAT I FOUND
VERY INTERESTING, AS WELL, IS
THAT HE DOESN'T SEE MAN AS BEING
ON AN AUTOMATIC, AS HE PUTS IT,
ESCALATOR TO PERFECTION, THAT WE
ARE NOT, NECESSARILY, ALWAYS
IMPROVING, WHICH, AGAIN, WOULD
BE MAYBE AN AMERICAN IDEAL; THAT
WE HAVE THESE DIPS.
FINSTUEN: RIGHT.
FRANKLIN: WORLD WAR II AND THE
NAZIS WOULD BE ONE OF THEM.
FINSTUEN: YEAH.
FRANKLIN: BUT, AGAIN, THIS IS
NOT SOMETHING THAT WOULD BE
NORMAL CONVERSATION.
THE IDEA WAS "WE'RE GREAT AND
WE'RE GETTING EVEN BETTER."
FINSTUEN: EXACTLY.
I MEAN, YOU'VE CHARACTERIZED IT
VERY WELL.
IT'S THE PUSH-PULL OF INDIVIDUAL
LIFE, NATIONAL LIFE, GLOBAL.
HE USES HISTORY OFTEN TO SAY,
"LOOK, YOU BELIEVE IN SORT OF
UNMITIGATED PROGRESS.
EVEN IF WE SLIP A LITTLE BIT, IF
YOUR LINE OF HISTORY GOES LIKE
THIS, LET ME GIVE YOU A LESSON
IN HISTORY TO DEMONSTRATE THAT
IT'S MUCH MORE UNEVEN."
AND SOMETIMES WE'RE TURNING
BACKWARDS AS MUCH AS WE'RE
TURNING FORWARD, AND THAT THIS
NOTION OF PROGRESS IS, ITSELF, A
BELIEF THAT HUMAN BEINGS,
ESPECIALLY AMERICANS, BELIEVE IN
AT WHAT SORT OF JUSTIFICATION
AND, ALSO, AT WHAT COST?
HE'S, OFTENTIMES, CONCERNED
ABOUT THE WAY IN WHICH THAT SORT
OF NOTION OF BLIND OPTIMISM OR
PROGRESS CAN CREATE THE
UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES OF
DESTRUCTION.
OR THINK ABOUT OUR OWN ECONOMIC
CRISIS OF SEVERAL YEARS AGO.
THIS NOTION, OH, THE ECONOMY --
OR THE INTERNET BUBBLE -- THE
ECONOMY IS GOING TO GROW, WE SEE
NO END IN SIGHT, NO LIMITS --
WHOOPS, HISTORY INTERRUPTS, AND
IT ALL COMES CRASHING DOWN.
IT'S NOT TO SAY THAT WE'RE GOING
TO PREDICT ONE WAY OR ANOTHER,
IT'S LET'S JUST BE CAUTIOUS.
FRANKLIN: WHAT WOULD NIEBUHR
THINK ABOUT TODAY?
TODAY'S POLITICAL ATMOSPHERE?
DOBLMEIER: WELL, I TRY NOT TO
TALK DIRECTLY TO WHAT'S
HAPPENING IN THE POLITICAL WORLD
RIGHT NOW BECAUSE IT CHANGES ON
A REGULAR BASIS, BUT, AT THE
SAME TIME, I THINK THAT
NIEBUHR'S IDEA OF HUMILITY,
GENUINE HUMILITY, THAT WE CAN'T
TAKE OUR -- ASSUME THAT WE ARE
GREATEST NATION ON THE FACE OF
THE EARTH.
THERE MAY BE SOME SERIOUS
SELF-REFLECTION, AS A NATION,
THAT HAS TO HAPPEN FOR US TO
BEGIN TO CONTINUE TO MOVE IN
THAT PROPER DIRECTION.
I THINK PEOPLE HAVE A HUNGER TO
HEAR THAT.
AND I THINK THAT'S GOING TO
CONTINUE FOR A WHILE.
AND I THINK NIEBUHR'S MESSAGE
WILL RESONATE, I THINK, FOR A
LONG, LONG TIME TO COME.
WE PUT PEOPLE IN THE FILM,
MARCIA, INTENTIONALLY, WHO WOULD
BE SOMEWHAT CRITICAL ALONG THE
WAY OF REINHOLD NIEBUHR, BECAUSE
HE HAD HIS CRITICS DURING HIS
DAY.
BUT HE'S THE KIND OF WRITER AND
THINKER WHOSE IDEAS ARE BIG
IDEAS, AND I THINK THEY'RE
WORTHY OF GOING BACK AND
REVISITING.
FINSTUEN: AND I WOULD MENTION
THE SURPRISES OF HISTORY, WHICH
I KIND OF MENTIONED A MOMENT
AGO.
SO WHATEVER PEOPLE THINK ABOUT
THE CURRENT SITUATION, A LOT OF
PEOPLE EXPRESS SURPRISE, BOTH
THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION, BUT
OTHER THINGS.
AND NIEBUHR WOULD SAY, "WHY ARE
YOU SURPRISED?"
HISTORY TWISTS AND TURNS ALL THE
TIME, AND WE ARE NOT AS CAPABLE
OF PREDICTING OUTCOMES AS WE
THINK WE ARE.
AND ONE OF THE DANGERS IS THAT
WE THINK THAT WE CAN FIGURE
OURSELVES OUT AND FIGURE HISTORY
OUT, AND THAT GETS YOU INTO VERY
UNTENABLE POSITIONS.
SO HE'S VERY CONCERNED ABOUT
THAT TENDENCY TO THINK THAT WE
CAN MAP THINGS OUT.
SO I THINK THAT WOULD BE PART OF
HIS RESPONSE.
AND, OF COURSE, ONE OF HIS MAJOR
BOOKS, "THE IRONY OF AMERICAN
HISTORY," IS JUST THAT THEME,
THE IRONY OF WHAT WE THINK WE
KNOW AND WHERE WE'RE HEADED, AND
YET THE OUTCOMES, THE UNINTENDED
CONSEQUENCES.
SO HE HAS A VERY NICE WAY OF
FRAMING OUR MOMENT.
WHATEVER -- HOWEVER PEOPLE FALL
OUT ON THE POLITICAL OR ECONOMIC
SPECTRUM, LET'S BE A LITTLE MORE
CAUTIOUS ABOUT OUR PREDICTIVE
POWERS.
FRANKLIN: DO YOU THINK THAT HE
WOULD ANALYZE THE CURRENT
SITUATION AND SAY THAT THERE IS
TOO MUCH PRIDE AND NOT ENOUGH
HUMILITY AMONG OUR CURRENT
POLITICAL LEADERSHIP?
FINSTUEN: I THINK HE PROBABLY
WOULD HAVE SAID THAT TODAY,
YESTERDAY, 10 YEARS AGO, 15
YEARS AGO.
I THINK HE'S VERY CONCERNED
ABOUT THE WAYS IN WHICH, BOTH IN
HIS OWN ERA, AS MARTIN SPOKE
ABOUT EARLIER, THE WAY THAT HE
SPEAKS TRUTH TO POWER.
HE WANTS PEOPLE TO TAKE A LONG
LOOK AT THEMSELVES, FIRST.
AND I THINK THAT'S A RARE
CAPACITY AMONG INDIVIDUALS TO
SAY, "NOW, WAIT A MINUTE, HOW AM
I CONTRIBUTING TO WHATEVER THIS
MIGHT BE?"
OR GROUPS.
BECAUSE HE'S GOING TO SAY IT'S
ALWAYS GOING TO BE INTENTION.
GROUPS, BY DEFINITION, ARE
DEFINED AGAINST SOMETHING ELSE,
SO LET'S BE COGNIZANT OF THAT.
AND SO, YEAH, I THINK HE WOULD
BE WORRIED ABOUT IT.
AND I THINK, IN SOME SENSE, OUR
-- I WOULD OFFER -- I MEAN, IT'S
HARD -- HE DIED IN 1971 -- IT'S
HARD TO SPEAK FOR HIM, BUT I
THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY EVEN IF
THERE ARE SOME COMMUNITIES THAT
HAVE FORMED SINCE HIS DAY, WE'VE
INCREASED IN OUR INDIVIDUALISTIC
TENDENCIES.
AND I THINK NIEBUHR WOULD WANT
TO ASK QUESTIONS ABOUT HOW THAT
INDIVIDUALISM EXPRESSES ITSELF,
ALSO, IN TERMS OF HUBRIS OR
PRIDE.
DOBLMEIER: WE HEAR A LOT OF
RUMBLINGS IN THE CULTURE TODAY
ABOUT ANGER AND FRUSTRATION,
DISSATISFACTION, BUT I THINK A
LOT OF IT EMANATES FROM FEAR.
I THINK THERE'S A GREAT DEAL OF
FEAR.
AND SO I THINK, IN SOME WAYS,
WHAT NIEBUHR MIGHT BE ABLE TO
OFFER IS THAT IF WE CAN FIND A
WAY TO ACCEPT THAT WE ALL HAVE
SOME LEVEL OF FAILING THAT HAS
TO BE ACCOUNTED FOR, IN SOME
WAYS IT DOES KIND OF EQUALIZE
OUR RESPONSE, WHETHER NOT AS TO
THE GROWING SENSE OF
ISLAMOPHOBIA OR THE HATE CRIMES
THAT ARE HAPPENING ACROSS
AMERICA, THE RACIAL DIVIDE THAT
HAPPENS IN AMERICA.
I MEAN, NIEBUHR WRITES THAT THE
FEAR IN THE FOE -- I'M SORRY,
THE EVIL IN THE FOE IS
REFLECTION OF THE EVIL IN THE
SELF.
AND I THINK HE'S REALLY,
ULTIMATELY, CALLING US ALL TO
REALIZE THAT THERE ARE
COMMONALITIES BETWEEN US THAT WE
HAVE TO ACCEPT AND HAVE TO DEAL
WITH.
IT'S NOT SOME SORT OF GRAND IDEA
ABOUT "LET'S ALL LOVE ONE
ANOTHER, WE'RE GOING TO LOVE OUR
WAY OUT OF THIS."
FINSTUEN: RIGHT.
DOBLMEIER: THAT'S NOT WHERE HE
GOES AT ALL.
THAT'S -- HE COULD NEVER BE THAT
NAIVE.
BUT HE'S, ULTIMATELY, SAYING,
"WE'RE ALL FAILED, WE ALL HAVE
OUR ISSUES, AND WE ALL OPERATE
OUT OF SELF-INTEREST."
AND I THINK IF THERE'S ONE THING
THAT HAPPENED IN THE ELECTION,
EVERYBODY GOES INTO THAT VOTING
BOOTH AND FUNDAMENTALLY VOTES
OUT OF SELF-INTEREST.
AND THAT CAME CLEAR, VERY
CLEARLY IN NOVEMBER OF 2016, BUT
THAT'S NOT TO BE A SURPRISE.
THAT'S KIND OF THE WAY WE ARE AS
HUMAN BEINGS.
AND IF WE CAN ACCEPT THAT AND
FIND A WAY FORWARD, THAT'S
WHAT'S GOING TO BE THE
POSSIBILITY FOR OUR NATION.
FINSTUEN: AND I THINK ANOTHER
WAY THAT HE WOULD PUT IT, TO
YOUR QUESTION ABOUT OUR CURRENT
MOMENT, ACROSS, NOT JUST AT A
NATIONAL LEVEL, ARE YOU WILLING
TO BE CONSTRUCTIVELY CRITICIZED,
AND ARE YOU WILLING TO
APOLOGIZE?
FRANKLIN: MANY PEOPLE KNOW
NIEBUHR, EVEN IF THEY DON'T KNOW
NIEBUHR, THROUGH THE SERENITY
PRAYER, WHICH SAYS, "GOD GRANT
ME THE SERENITY TO ACCEPT THE
THINGS I CANNOT CHANGE, COURAGE
TO CHANGE THE THINGS I CAN, AND
WISDOM TO KNOW THE DIFFERENCE."
VERY SIMPLE, BUT VERY PROFOUND
AT THE SAME TIME.
FINSTUEN: RIGHT.
AND THERE'S A WAY IN WHICH THAT
PRAYER HAS HIS WHOLE SYSTEM OF
THEOLOGY WITHIN IT, RIGHT?
THERE ARE THINGS YOU CAN CHANGE.
YOU SHOULD HAVE A SENSE OF
YOURSELF AND CHANGE.
BUT YOU ALSO, THERE ARE THINGS
YOU CANNOT CHANGE, AND CAN YOU
HAVE THE CENTERED ACCEPTANCE OF
THAT AND RECOGNIZE YOURSELF AS A
CREATURE AMONG OTHER CREATURES?
AND FOR HIM, BECAUSE OF THE
DIVINE, WE CAN'T KNOW ALL OF IT.
SO THAT KIND OF DIALECTIC,
AGAIN, AND THEN THE WISDOM TO
KNOW THE DIFFERENCE, IT IS, IT'S
COMPLEXITY, AND WE NEED TO -- IN
HIS CASE, WE NEED TO PRAY FOR
THAT WISDOM TO COME TO US, TO
NAVIGATE THIS DIALECTIC, THIS
BOTH/AND NATURE OF HIS THOUGHT.
BUT THAT PRAYER REALLY IS A
SUMMARY OF WHAT WE'VE BEEN
TALKING A LOT ABOUT OVER THIS
CONVERSATION: HIS DUALITY, HIS
CONSTANT, "IT'S BOTH/AND, NOT
EITHER/OR."
DOBLMEIER: I THINK COURAGE IS
THE KEY WORD, TOO.
I MEAN, WE CALL IT THE SERENITY
PRAYER, BUT THAT SECOND PHRASE
IN THE PRAYER ABOUT "THE COURAGE
TO CHANGE THE THINGS WE CAN."
I MEAN, OFTENTIMES, WE'RE MOST
SUSCEPTIBLE OF KEEPING THINGS IN
THE STATUS QUO, AND THE COURAGE
TO BE ABLE TO GO OUT THERE AND
SAY, "NO, THIS REALLY DOES NEED
TO BE CHANGED," WHETHER OR NOT
-- THE WAY WE TREAT PEOPLE, THE
ECONOMIC SYSTEM IN AMERICA, THE
POLITICAL SYSTEM IN AMERICA,
THAT TAKES A LOT OF COURAGE, AND
THERE'S A LOT OF RISK INVOLVED.
IN THE OPENING PART OF THE FILM
CORNEL WEST SAYS, "I TREMBLE AND
SHAKE AT THE COURAGE OF REINHOLD
NIEBUHR."
HE PUT HIMSELF OUT THERE ON THE
LINE, PUBLICLY, AND SPOKE WITH
COURAGE, I THINK, ABOUT THE
ISSUES OF THE DAY, AND THAT'S
WHAT I THINK THE CHURCHES IN
THIS COUNTRY ARE CALLED TO DO,
ESPECIALLY.
AND PEOPLE WHO REALLY WANT TO
SEE A BETTER AMERICA ARE CALLED
TO DO THAT EVERY SINGLE DAY.
FRANKLIN: WELL, THANK YOU SO
MUCH FOR TAKING THE TIME TO TALK
ABOUT "AN AMERICAN CONSCIENCE"
AND ABOUT REINHOLD NIEBUHR.
I KNOW, FOR ONE, THAT IT HAS
MADE ME WANT TO READ MORE OF HIS
WORK, SO I REALLY APPRECIATE YOU
TAKING THE TIME TO BE HERE.
THANK YOU.
DOBLMEIER: THANK YOU.
FINSTUEN: THANK YOU.
IT'S BEEN A PLEASURE.
FRANKLIN: YOU'VE BEEN LISTENING
TO MARTIN DOBLMEIER AND BOISE
STATE PROFESSOR ANDREW FINSTUEN,
WHO DIRECTED AND PRODUCED THE
DOCUMENTARY "AN AMERICAN
CONSCIENCE: THE REINHOLD NIEBUHR
STOIRY."
THE FILM PREMIERED ON PBS
STATIONS IN APRIL 2017.
FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT
THE "DIALOGUE" WEBSITE.
JUST GO TO IDAHOPTV.ORG AND
CLICK ON "DIALOGUE."
FOR "DIALOGUE", I'M MARCIA
FRANKLIN.
THANKS FOR TUNING IN.
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