Dialogue in eight parts between
Fritz Lang and Jean Luc Godard
including extracts from
M by Fritz Lang
and Contempt by J. L. Godard
Each film should have
a definite point of view.
lt is the eternal problem
of the ancient Greeks.
lt's a fight against the Gods.
The fight of Ulysses.
That's Minerva, isn't it?
She's Ulysses' protector.
And that's Neptune,
his mortal enemy.
ln Contempt, Fritz Lang plays the role
of a well-known film director
who could be himself.
Moreover, he is called Fritz Lang.
- l'm Paul Javal. Mr. Prokosch...
- l know.
lt's swell.
l really like Cinemascope.
lt wasn't made for people
but for snakes and funerals.
What's the matter, Miss Vanini?
ls it about the script?
He says it's not the same
on screen as on paper.
l'm going to meet my wife.
The Nazis used to say ''revolver''
instead of ''cheque book''.
Are you going to accept the job,
yes or no?
''But man, when he must, can stand
fearless and alone, before God
His candour is his shield
He needs neither arms nor wiles
Until such time
as God's absence helps him''
- That's Hölderlin, isn't it?
- Yes. The Poet's VocatIon.
The final line is obscure.
Hölderlin originally wrote...
- ''So long as God is not present''
- And then...
''So long as God is close to us''
The way the last lines are written,
they contradict the other two.
lt is no longer about God's presence.
lt's God's absence that reassures man.
You are Fritz Lang
and l'm Jean-Luc Godard.
You've made many more films
than l have, l think.
Do you know how many?
But l know you know
more about my films than l do.
You've made 42.
My God. Too many.
You've seen a lot of things
through 42 films -
many upheavals in the history of
Europe and the history of America.
Today, if you were to be asked
the question,
by someone who doesn't know
the cinema,
asking you, Fritz Lang,
how would you define what man is,
and more particularly,
one who is a film director?
Would you say a hard worker,
an artist...?
What makes a man a director -
what's special about being a director?
You know l don't like the term ''artist''.
What is an artist?
Someone who works hard,
who knows his job.
A great surgeon
is an artist in my opinion.
l'm someone who works hard.
l like my job.
l must say l like it a lot.
That's all.
l have a somewhat different feeling.
Van Gogh was more important
than the carpenter who made
the easel on which he painted,
even if it was beautiful.
You're absolutely right.
lt's an excellent example.
Maybe l'm wrong!
No, listen...
You know...
You prefer to see yourself
as a carpenter...
Not as a carpenter,
but as a hard worker.
People think we don't work much,
but in fact we work a lot...
The public think that
we just make films for pleasure.
They don't know what hard work it is.
l think we both have something...
together. Can you say that?
ln common.
l think you're a romantic,
and l am too.
l don't know if it's a good thing
to be romantic in these times.
- Today, l think it's a bad thing.
- Why?
Why?
Because being romantic is...
being sentimental.
lt's not at all
about being sentimental.
l think when you're tough,
just as the technical side is,
you can't say anything.
The technical side is not romantic.
l don't want to see myself
as a machine.
Like a robot.
And one other thing
in response to what
l think a director is.
l believe he must be...
- ..a psychoanalyst.
- A psychoanalyst.
He has to...
get beneath the skin of an actor.
He has to...
He has to know why the people
in the script do what they do.
So l think he has
to be a psychoanalyst.
One day this was asked of me
and l had an idea
which has stayed with me ever since.
Someone said: ''l can see
very well what you wanted to do,
what you were thinking.''
So l said: ''How can you know that?''
He told me something.
So l started to think.
Maybe in all our films
we put our hearts...
..our desires, everything that
we love or that has betrayed us.
And l think one day,
if there is someone
who could analyse us,
you and me,
maybe he would know.
l don't know why l've made my films.
Do you know?
So l think this person will find out
why we know how to do things
in such and such a way.
I thInk that a dIrector
has to be a psychoanaIyst.
1 0,000 MARKS REWARD.
WHO lS THE MURDERER?
SlNCE MONDAY, JUNE 1 1 ,
THESE CHlLDREN
HAVE BEEN MlSSlNG:
KURT KLAWlTZKY
AND HlS SlSTER KLARA.
What a lovely ball you have.
- What is your name?
- Elsie Beckmann.
There's something
that always strikes me with...
lf l may call you...
- What?
- An older director.
- An old director.
- A dinosaur.
What strikes me about Abel Gance
or Renoir, who we know,
it's an incredible sense of youth.
Always being interested
in things at the point
at which they are born
as if they're happening
for the first time.
You're always interested
in new issues. Do you think...?
Listen, l think that our profession,
the art of cinema,
doesn't just belong to this century.
l think it's an art for young people.
You think it's more of
a young person's art. l think so too.
Let me tell you something.
l have been thinking a lot...
l've written a film that l never made.
lt was called...
l don't know. l've forgotten.
And l was trying...
What is ''remember''?
..to remember my youth and l couldn't.
l wanted a comparison between
youth today and my youth.
l find that... l think that...
..these days our lives are quicker.
Think of silent films,
they're much slower.
Films that we made 30 years later...
The dinosaur's talking now.
Films when l started out
in 1 91 9 or 1 91 8,
so 45 or 46 years ago.
These films are much slower.
Just as our IIfestyIe has started
goIng at a quIcker pace
our films became a little quicker.
Faster paced?
And the life of young people
is much faster paced
than our lives were
when we were young.
Gentlemen,
l open this meeting.
l see that all division leaders
of this organisation are represented.
l assume you are authorised
to make binding decisions.
We all know why
we are assembled here.
An outsider is ruining our business.
Police measures and the daily raids
to catch this child murderer
are hampering our activities
to an unbearable degree.
We are no longer safe
in any hotel, bar,
café or even private home
from the clutches of the police.
This state of affairs must end.
Things must return to normal,
or we'll all be ruined.
Our coffers will soon be depleted.
lf we can't get funds
to support those members' wives
enjoying room and board
at state expense,
l don't know how we'll find the money
to realise our plans.
Our reputation is suffering.
The police are looking for
the murderer among us.
When l run into a policeman,
he knows the potential risks. So do l.
lf either dies in the line of duty,
fine. Occupational hazard.
But we must draw a line
between ourselves and this man.
We conduct our business to survive,
but this monster
doesn't have that right.
He must be killed, eliminated,
exterminated. Without mercy.
No child in this city must take
a single step without us knowing it.
- But how?
- And who?
People who can go anywhere
without causing a stir.
Follow anyone
without attracting attention.
Follow any child to any house
without arousing suspicion.
ln short, people whom the killer
would never suspect.
- But who?
- There are no such people.
The beggars' union.
Let me tell you something.
l told you, amongst us...
..almost no one from that time
when we started out is still with us
who worked in this new art.
There is Dreyer, Abel Gance
and yourself.
And we couIdn't taIk
as you are abIe to now...
We couIdn't speak out.
I thInk It was a Iot easIer for us
than for you.
Because we were expIorers
and at that tIme,
the financers requIred
that we finIsh a film
In four weeks or somethIng IIke that.
PeopIe made a Iot of money
from these films at that tIme.
l think in that respect,
films are a bit like loaves of bread.
They're good. They're made
to be consumed today,
in a week, six months, a year.
l don't know how it is now.
But a film that lives on
isn't just a loaf of bread.
But l think only time
and the public can tell
and when a film lives on like a film
by Abel Gance, NapoIéon...
Abel Gance's NapoIéon will live on.
lt is a work of art.
But how many such films
do you know?
How many such films could still be seen
and liked by the public today?
Maybe there aren't...
We mentIoned AbeI Gance, Dreyer
and you. Maybe In Dreyer's case It's
The PassIon of Joan of Arc.
And maybe VampIre.
And for you, in my opinion,
l think it's M.
- ls it yours also?
- Yes, l think so.
Naturally. l think the film M
is a documentary.
That's odd. l've heard that before.
But...it was...
Hey, Heinrich!
- What's the matter?
- Listen. Someone's whistling.
Can't you hear it? There.
You're a baby.
Mothers smack babies.
- Children are always punished.
- No, why?
- Because the cinema is...?
- Romantic.
Exactly. Because if the cinema
is a young person's art,
it's a youthful art.
Maybe that's why, because it is young
it is often taunted.
Taunted. How would you
say that in German?
- l don't know.
- We're stricter with it.
l'd like to ask you,
how should we react in relation to...
..not quite censorship, but something
heavier than that, tyranny?
Should we be like children
and throw a tantrum?
Or should we, on the other hand,
try to outsmart it.
- l know nothing about children.
- No, but tyranny.
We should always fight against tyranny.
When you talked about censorship,
there's something that interests me.
l don't know if it's true. Tell me...
l've always been against censorship.
l made a film that was called...
Woman In the WIndow.
La Femme au portraIt.
There was a scene in that where
a woman... And it was a dream.
Where a woman tries to poison a man.
This scene was cut.
Not by America, l mean all of America.
lt was cut in Oregon
because...there was a case
where a woman
wanted to poison a man...
We have censorship to an extent
but l've heard
that you have a lot of censorship.
You know how l like France.
ls it true that in France
you can't film a politician
or a policeman taking a bribe?
No, l don't think so.
But it's strange. ln France...
For example, three quarters
of the films l make in France,
l can't make in Russia nor in America.
But there are certain films that l can't
make in France but can make in America
or in Russia.
A war film, you can't do in France.
Why not,
generals are always in the right?
You can't show a captain
or a general making a mistake.
- You can't?
- We can't.
There isn't really a film that has been
made about the liberation.
Or about the Occupation.
l don't know. The French, not even
the authorities react in a way...
They don't like documentaries.
lf it's fiction...
But listen...
The President can't be shown
in a French film.
While in America many actors
have played Kennedy...
You've touched on something -
they don't like documentaries.
l think that a film which we make today
about a time that we knew
and that we lived through...
When you make a film like that,
it has to be a documentary.
lf it's good it is
by its very nature documentary.
Coming to Capri with us, Mr. Lang?
''Each morning to earn my bread
l go to the market where lies are sold
and, full of hope, l line up
alongside the other vendors.''
- What's that?
- HoIIywood.
From a ballad by poor B. B.
- Bertolt Brecht?
- Yes.
Homer's world is a real world.
And the poet belonged
to a civilisation
that grew in harmony
not in opposition with nature.
And the beauty of The Odyssey
lies precisely in this belief
in reality as it is.
Thus in reality
as it appears objectively.
Exactly. And in a form
that cannot be broken down.
And is what it is. Take it or leave it.
Today in Paris, there are certain films
that we can't make
or if we did, we'd know
they would cause trouble.
l want to make a film about students.
Students are 1 8 or 1 9 years old,
interested in everything,
particularly politics...
- But it's important...
- But that we can't do...
We can't make films about dockers
like Waterfront or whatever
in the States.
We can't because it's like that.
These are some examples.
l'll tell you something.
We had censorship in Hollywood.
But we could talk to the censors.
- That's better...
- Can you talk here?
Who censors?
- A group of people?
- Yes, people we don't know.
You know, in the past, l always
found myself, when l made a film...
..going to the censorship body,
not as if l'd done something
nor with my collaborators
having tried to do something.
Like a little boy
who'd done something wrong.
Maybe the public is a bit like that.
The censors don't look
with their hearts...
The romantic... The heart
has to be involved, you're right.
Something that the producer
Carlo Ponti said that always struck me.
He said the public watch films not
with their eyes but with their stomachs.
Do you think it's true?
What does the stomach mean?
l think l know what it means.
lt's very difficult.
l don't think the public know
if they watch a film with the heart
or with the stomach.
But they know very well
if a film is good or not.
l believe in the public.
l'll say something
l work for the public. l think film
is an art for a mass audience.
And if l didn't believe that the masses
could judge a film properly
l wouldn't have the right to make films.
But if, for example, you make a film,
that you believe is for a mass public,
and the public don't like it
and you don't think it's bad,
do you change?
- What, the film or myself?
- No, the film.
No, not at all. Maybe l'm not right.
Maybe l'm wrong.
But generally l've found...
l fear it may sound a bit...
- How do you say that?
- Say it in English.
Pretentious.
That l almost never had
what we call in America a flop.
As In a faIIure, you know?
l found that the films l've made
that l didn't like when l finished them,
they had a life of their own,
you know?
And in ten years, or 1 2 years,
l see them again,
and find they're not as bad
as l thought.
Are you crazy,
throwing orange peel on the ground?
A man could slip and break his neck!
l should report you to the police.
Outrageous behaviour!
Mister!
When we saw you
six or seven months ago
in Cannes, you didn't know if you
were going to make another film.
But now l think you do want to make
another film. Can you tell me...?
- Shall l tell you the truth?
- Yes, the likely truth.
Dear frIend, I'II teII you somethIng.
When we get older, in any profession,
we've already spoken about that.
We worry about losing touch with youth.
l was afraid of that.
l didn't want to make any more films.
You know l was very happy...
..being able to work with you
on Contempt as an actor.
l said to myself,
''That's it, that's the end.''
But now perhaps in
the last three or four weeks...
l was at Chaillot
at the Cinémathèque française.
There were two or three
young people there,
girls and boys who said,
''Mr Lang, your films have given us
so many hours of pleasure.
We've learnt a lot from you.
Make more films.''
l was very touched
and l think l will make another film.
What will it be called?
l think l will call it
Death of a Career GIrI.
The death of a woman who thinks
only of her career and forgets...
Will the death be a punishment?
lt is a living death.
l'm superstitious.
Let's not talk about that.
What is it?
We talked about something,
about us dinosaurs.
When we started working in silent film.
As l said, we couldn't speak out,
we could only take action.
l found a great difference
when we worked together.
lt's very important
and l think you're right.
l'm talking now about the car accident.
The car accident
with Bardot and Palance...
When Palance and Bardot are killed.
Certainly what l would have done...
They're in the car
which is going faster and faster.
Maybe there's something...
He can't do that...
l'd show the accident.
But you don't show it.
You just showed that they were dead
between two trucks.
For you, the consequences were far
more important than the accident itself.
- That's rIght.
- That's InterestIng and sIgnIficant.
But comparIng what you wanted...
- The baIance...
- .. when we worked together.
l'm told that l improvise a lot
which you've seen.
When l saw The SpIders for example,
there are many things you've done
that l have too. That was 30 years ago.
A bit like the New Wave.
l'm happy to hear that.
l think so too. l haven't seen
these films for 30 or 40 years.
But, listen.
There is one big difference
between you and me.
You work differently.
You use improvisation.
That's something l don't like, but
l think a director has to be...
..a creator.
But in any case, l think a director
shouldn't talk.
He shouldn't write because...
He must say what he wants to say
with the films he is making.
lf a director needs words and writing
to explain what he wants to say,
that doesn't in my opinion
make a good film or a real director.
A director who says to an actor:
''You come through this door...
You have the script
and you do that and that.
And then go out this way.''
That's a traffic cop. What do you say?
- A traffic warden?
- Not a film director.
l'll show you something. One moment.
Let's put that there.
When l start working... Thank you.
When l have a script...
..a scene.
The set designer comes up
with a room like this, let's say.
l say that won't work.
l'll have four walls like that.
So l say, this man...
is sitting at this desk.
There's the desk.
There has to be a window here.
That's what we have to start off.
He's sitting here.
He gives me a door here.
l have a scene where
the man who's sitting here
has to walk here.
lt takes a long time.
- l don't want to...waste.
- Wait.
Waste time.
So give me a door here
so he can go this way.
When l'm sitting down,
and the opposite to you, l think,
l have the script and l say
we'll start with a shot here.
Now the man is sitting here.
He's writing
and the window is on the correct side.
He sees someone entering
from this side.
So now l make a drawing like this
and he goes this way.
The camera goes round
Then let's say there's woman here.
The camera is now here.
When l do this,
l know from the start
where l have to position the dolly.
- The dolly?
- And another thing.
- l don't film consecutively.
- ln order.
Now the cameraman makes the link
for all these shots.
When l have a shot on this side...
..like that.
l leave it
and l do everything that's here.
For other shots, l film from here.
That saves me time.
l always do that when l'm in the studio.
l know exactly what l'm going to do.
lt's because you have
a very specific idea for the scene.
That doesn't mean l don't change
sometimes, but not often.
You change from within the idea.
Not the idea directly, but sometimes
we see something that's better.
The actor might not get the lines out
right. You do something different.
One thing
l'd like you to explain to me...
l wouldn't know
whether l'd want the desk there
- or there.
- But why not?
l don't know. l have to see everything -
the desk, the chair, the door.
Listen...
lf the door is there, likewise,
l don't want to waste time.
Swines! What do you want from me?
Help! Let me get out.
l want to get out!
l want out. Let me out of here!
You won't ever get out.
Gentlemen, l beg of you,
l don't know what you want from me.
l beg you, let me go.
The whole thing must be a mistake.
Oh, no. There has been no mistake.
Out of the question. This is no mistake.
No mistake.
Recognise this? You gave little
Elsie Beckmann a balloon like this.
Just like this one.
Elsie!
Where did you bury little Marga Perl,
you scoundrel?
But l didn't even know her.
You didn't know her?
What about her?
Or her?
l suppose you didn't know her either?
Don't let him escape!
Let go of me!
You have no right to treat me this way!
We'll show you what right we have.
Right? There's only one thing right
for a guy like you. Death!
- Kill him!
- Kill the rabid dog!
- Let him have it!
- Quiet!
Kill him, kill him!
l was saying there,
l can't change the door.
l need everything to exist.
The walls have to really exist.
The door has to exist.
Since it exists, l can't change it.
What l can change is the people.
Or if l don't like the door l'll look
for another apartment elsewhere.
Yes, l know.
Do you remember in Rome
where we filmed Contempt?
l should say something. When l saw
that scene... l should be honest.
l know that in these cases
you improvised.
- l find that scene extraordinary.
- No, but for example...
l'm talking.
lt's one of the best scenes l've
ever seen and l'm not flattering you.
You know that l think you're...
You know what l think of you.
But in this scene, l understood
why you improvised at times.
You always have
a great sense of vision.
Why is it necessary to see everything?
You have a vision
where that isn't necessary.
lt's something
that l don't totally understand.
Maybe it's that l'm interested
in the entirety of things
rather than something in particular.
You know l think...
We could talk about this
for days on end.
l think when l make a film,
l see everything.
l try to do one scene...
so that...
1 00 scenes later...
l begin here with an idea
which culminates here.
l think when you improvise
that's very difficult.
Or it doesn't work.
So l'm not saying
that it's better than your method.
Maybe, at the beginning
l have a point of view
which is more like a documentary
and from the start you have a point
of view that is more about fiction.
Then it comes together
and both are needed.
Yes, l think you're right.
Earlier we were talking about
the problem in France.
- There's one thing...
- l know what you mean.
lt's the only country where
the director owns copyright.
l don't know if it's copyright.
lt's the only place where a director
is seen as an author in law.
lt's something extraordinary
about France.
This doesn't exist anywhere else.
The distributors and the financers,
they make cuts.
We can't do anything in America,
England or Germany.
l can name two or three of my films
where they cut
exactly those scenes
for which l made the film.
And you can't do anything.
Why make films today?
lt has to be done.
The romantic element.
You know they have to be made.
But l'll tell you something.
l have nothing against ''entertainment''.
- Entertainment.
- Nothing at all.
But once l've seen a film made
for the masses, l've seen them all.
l have no reason to see something like
CIeopatra. lt's always the same thing.
l think films today should have
a critical point of view.
You have to put your finger
on something.
There has to be something that
will hold interest for young people.
l always ask what is a good film.
l don't know. A good film for me
is one that l'll watch again and again.
l've often said that films
should be a form of entertainment.
But they have to say something.
They have to be critical.
We talk about a film when there's
something to discuss after seeing it.
So people go to the cinema
perhaps a second or third time.
But l'll tell you something.
lt's often very difficult,
if l may talk about one of my films.
One of my films, M.
Fortunately, l was able to reach
various levels of the audience.
At one level, it is about
the pursuit of a criminal.
At another level,
it shows the work of the police.
At a third level,
which is an important issue now,
it was a discussion
about capital punishment.
And last but not least,
and very importantly,
the idea that children now
must be watched over more than ever.
l demand to be handed over
to the police.
l demand to be brought
before a real court of law.
That's a good one.
That would suit you, wouldn't it?
So you can plead insanity and spend
the rest of your life being cared for,
and then you escape or get a pardon,
and you're happy as can be,
free to kill with impunity, protected
by law on grounds of insanity.
And you're back to chasing
little children. No, no more of that.
You must be taken out of action.
But l can't help it!
l can't... l can't...
l can't help it.
We've heard that one before.
What do you know?
What are you saying?
Who are you anyway?
Who are you?
All of you. Criminals.
Probably proud of it.
Proud you can crack a safe or sneak
into houses or cheat at cards.
All of which
you could just as easily give up,
if you had learnt something useful
or if you had jobs
or if you weren't such lazy pigs.
But me...
Can l do anything about it?
Don't l have this cursed thing
inside me?
This burning, this voice, this torture.
You claim then
that you are forced to kill?
l have to wander the streets endlessly,
always sensing
that someone's following me.
lt's me. l'm shadowing myself.
Silently.
But l still hear it. Yes.
Sometimes l feel
like l'm following myself.
l want to run away from myself.
But l can't escape from myself.
l must take the path
that it's driving me down and run
down endless streets.
l want it to go away!
And with me run the ghosts
of mothers and children.
They never go away.
They're always there.
Always! Always! Always!
Except when l'm doing it...
Then l don't remember a thing.
Then l find myself in front of a poster
and l read about what l've done.
l read and l read.
l did that?
l don't remember anything.
But who believes me?
Who knows
what is going on inside me?
How it screams and cries out inside me,
when l have to do it.
Don't want to. Must!
And then a voice cries out,
and l can't listen to it any more! Help!
l can't. l can't.
The accused has stated
that he can't help himself.
ln other words,
he must commit murder.
He has pronounced
his own death sentence.
A man who claims to be compelled
to destroy the lives of others...
Such a man
must be put out like a bonfire.
He must be exterminated!
Wiped out!
Now there's something
that must be said.
Many financers aren't in favour
of films that are problematic.
They are only in favour
of entertainment.
l think that a man or woman
who has being working very hard,
of course, needs entertainment.
But if at the same time
we can deal with
an interesting problem...
They'll say:
''Let's go to the cinema again.''
lt works and they'll buy a ticket
a second time and a third time.
And now there's something
that l find interesting.
Do you know
the term ''box office'' in France?
lt's the money that comes into the till.
lt's the takings.
The financers when they see...
lt also interests me.
When the financers see the figures,
they'll say,
''l'm losing money, l've recouped
my money, or l've made money.''
When l see the figures,
l'm very happy if we've made a lot
of money but it's not just about that.
- Because a lot of money...
- A lot of people...
l've reached a public
that l wanted to reach
wIth my Ideas.
When there haven't been many peopIe
I haven't been abIe to reach them.
- You have to reach them.
-AIways. The romantIc eIement.
We'll touch wood for now,
for future films.
Mr. Lang,
l've come to say goodbye.
Goodbye.
What will you do?
Go back to Rome.
Finish my play.
- And you?
- l'll finish the film.
One should always finish
what one starts.
Which shot are you doing?
Ulysses' gaze when he first sees
his homeland again.
lthaca.
- Goodbye, Mr. Lang.
- Bye, l hope we'll meet again.
We're ready, Mr. Lang.
Quiet on the set.
Camera!
Silence.
EPlLOGUE
ThIs recordIng was made In ParIs
In November, 1 964.
Howard Vernon was one of the maIn
actors In FrItz Lang's Iast film
and has sInce remaIned a cIose frIend.
He watched the IntervIew
and Iater toId us
about the care he took In preparatIon.
He took this interview very seriously.
Relatively speaking, he took it
as seriously as making a film.
lt was part of his work.
lt was a contact with the public.
lt was as important for him
to give this interview
as preparing a scene for a film.
He's not as familiar with the French
language as he is with English.
That was an issue for him to start with.
l don't mean that we had prepared
anything in advance.
But l was his coach.
Lang, 7 /1 .
After BreathIess, we can see...
We can see Jean-Luc's style
becoming more and more pure
in all his films.
ln A Woman Is a Woman
and particularly in VIvre Ia vIe.
- What was it called?
- VIvre sa vIe.
- Once more? Wait one moment.
- Yes, please.
Wait, cut.
Lang, 7 /2.
After BreathIess, we can see...
We can see Jean-Luc's style becoming
more and more pure in all his films.
ln A Woman Is a Woman
and particularly in VIvre sa vIe.
- Finished.
- Fritz Lang, 8/1 .
l think it's a bit...
Once more. Cut!
