Lisa: All right.
Hi everyone!
I am here with Hillary and Jeff Whittington,
and I am so glad that they made time today.
They want to make sure I sort of remind everyone,
if you haven't already read their book, please
do, and we're going to have a conversation,
and so I'll take a second out to promote this
book as well, sort of the book that Stephanie
Brill and I just wrote called The Transgender
Teen, and today, we're going to talk with
Hillary and Jeff and the three of us are going
to have sort of just an open discussion about
some of the issues that come up when trying
to parent kids that fall outside of sort of
society’s norms around gender in one way
or another, either transgender, non-binary,
or otherwise gender expansive kids, and I
want to that people that sent in some questions,
so we’re going to incorporate that in as
well, and I think we’ll just go ahead and
maybe get started.
I’m going to start by asking you guys a
questions if I can, and the first one really
is just about this generational divide around
gender, and I know that, you know, you do
a lot of work in your community in a number
of ways in our broader society around gender,
and you know, one of the things that’s really
complex is most people start – when then
think about gender, they really think about,
well frankly, genitals, right?
It’s like our baby was assigned this sex
at birth and so we assume that we know what
their gender is, and then all of a sudden,
that doesn’t end up being true what we realize
gender actually is more complex than just
our bodies but it also involves lots of other
parts of our sense of self and then also how
we express that, and the truth is most people
just haven’t thought very much about it
and haven’t needed to, and so when the issue
starts to come up, you feel like you’re
talking a different language, and I’m wondering
how you both sort of deal with that in your
own worlds and how you’ve tried to maybe
bridge that generational gap with people in
your life, maybe your own families or in the
work that you do as you try to talk about
this issue.
Hillary: I mean, I think for me, personally,
I’ll let you answer too, I think I, you
know, I start off by saying that I confuse
gender and sexuality and I confuse gender
in the beginning just like everyone else.
I thought that when a doctor says it’s a
girl that the baby’s a girl.
I really didn’t have to think about it any
further than that like most people, and I
think Ryland has taught us so much about gender
and I don’t know - what are your thoughts?
Jeff: Yeah.
I mean, absolutely.
I mean, there is a big generational gap and
then you come down to exactly what you’re
saying, it’s about education and it’s
about teaching people the difference between
sex and gender and how it’s not always what
we thought it was going to be that big – when
you see those new couples having babies and
they do the big gender reveal, and you go,
“Really?
Do you really know?
Because you don’t.”
[laughter] Lisa: Exactly.
Jeff: I become increasingly uncomfortable
seeing those things.
You really don’t know.
Lisa: True.
Jeff: And it is and that’s because they
go and they get a sonogram and they see the
sex of the baby, but they don’t realize
that doesn’t necessarily correlate to gender,
and it is, but it’s those conversations,
and I think that, you know, that the easiest
conversations are, you know, to have people
that know you personally and know the story
and they have seen the experiences that we’ve
gone through and those are the people who’re
generally more open to accepting it and listening
and receiving education.
Obviously, there’re those that just, you
know, they have no experience to go by and
it’s just that, it… Hillary: Yeah.
Well and my favorite thing is people that
will say, “Well, I wasn’t thinking about
that when I was their age,” and I say, “Yeah.
Of course, I wasn’t really either because
my brain aligned with the body, you know,
that I had from birth,” and I think until
you are forced to, you know, are opened up
to this and I’ve heard stories and maybe
met us, most people probably do think that
gender is decided by the birth and we’ve
learned, you know, through our trans with
Ryland, that’s just not the case at all,
and the more research I’ve done, the more
I’ve recognized that this is definitely,
you know, they say it and I’ll say it again,
gender is between the ears, not between the
legs.
It’s very true, and so…
Lisa: Well, I think too, you know, you’re
raising a great point and Jeff, the gender
reveals remind me too that issue where, you
know, so much what happens for parents is
the grieving in this transition that it’s
like, “Wait a minute.
I have this relationship with my child,”
and in some ways what parents don’t realize
because every parent, this is true, is that,
I mean this preceded this child, right?
That the dreams and in some ways, what we’re
really grieving it’s not, you know, parents
aren’t really grieving the actual child.
The actual child is still themselves, very
much the child they’ve always been.
It’s the fantasy child.
It’s this fantasy thing that we create as
parents for all of our kids so that we do
have to let go of that and the truth is, we,
most parents have to let go of that anyway
over the course of their child’s life, so
they usually get a little bit longer, you
know, to let go of that and it sort of gets
accelerated in this case, so that sort of
you’ve been your experience and this is
part of your own journey as parents.
Jeff: Oh, absolutely.
Absolutely.
Hillary: Yeah.
I mean, and speaking of that, I think as parents,
we just naturally sort of have these images
in our head of what our child’s life is
going to look like and that’s actually very
dangerous.
You know, I feel like parents will want to
turn their kids even into like crazy amazing
drummers or the best athlete and you know,
I sort of have seen that parents do this in
all ways of raising children - trying to impose
on your child what you want them to be versus
who they are.
I mean, I think that we’re able to guide
our children in some ways, but gender is hard
wired and I believe that there’s nothing
that we could’ve done other than make Ryland
feel shameful to change who he felt he was,
so, it’s interesting now just…
Jeff: But I think you hit it dead on.
I mean, there is absolutely 100% grieving
process, but what you are grieving is that
vision that you had for your child and everything
you thought it was supposed to be, and when
we found out Ryland, when we had the – met
with the audiologist, when we had the ultrasound
done and we said, “Oh, it’s a girl!”
I mean, the room was instantly bathed in pink
and it was and we were set up for our little
girl and the closet was full of dresses and
you just start to envision raising this little
girl, and then, you know, when we realize
what was happening and Ryland went through
that transition, you know, in your head, you
got to say that girl that I was visioning
is gone.
Hillary: But still the same child.
Jeff: But at the same it, it’s the same
child but you just, what really helps push
through that is watching when that transition
occurs in the child, the blossoming and just
that change in who that – the child’s
always the same, but when you really allow
them to express themselves and you just see
a completely different child.
Hillary: Happier.
Jeff: And the happiness, at least that was
our experience, the smiles, just that you
could see that inside, Ryland felt so different
and that really pushes that grieving process
along very quickly.
Lisa: Yeah.
I think Jeff that’s such an important point,
and Hillary too, you’re point about, you
know, when people say, “Well, you know,
and they’re too young to know,” right?
This is a common one and we’ll get to that
I think because some of the questions that
were sent in are some common misconceptions
I think, but one of them is it they’re too
young to know when in fact, the American Academy
of Pediatrics says, you know, by age 3, children
readily differentiate based on gender and
including their own gender.
By age 4, their gender identity is fairly
stable.
So, what’s different though is that for
cisgender kids, it’s not like, “Oh!
that’s only true for cisgender kids,”
but not for, you know, transgender and non-binary
kids, it’s just true for people.
It’s a developmental process.
It’s not always true, you know.
It’s not linear and it’s not necessarily
true for everybody but it’s true for the
vast majority of kids.
What’s really interesting to me is that
but if you don’t line up, well, then you’re
too young to know, but if you do line up and
you have kids in the playground at elementary
school or preschool who identify and they
are certain of their gender identity, people
are like, “Well, of course, they know,”
you know, and when you ask people generally
if you say, “What are you earliest gendered
memories?”
One the first times when you began to hear
people talk about, you know, what it meant
to be a little boy or a little girl, and then
the decisions they began to make out of that,
actually it is really young, and so, it’s
one of those misconceptions when people say,
“Oh, really!
They’re too young to know,” and in fact,
virtually, everybody knows.
Most people know and fairly stable sense of
it.
I think one of the really challenging things
for trans and non-binary kids because there’s
no language really available to them and it’s
even worse to that because most kid – most
parents when their child does assert a gender
identity that’s different than one that
was assumed, they go, “You know what, I
know, but actually, you know, girls can like
those things too,” or “But boys can like
doing those kinds of things or wearing those
clothes and that’s’ okay too,” and there’s
a lot of emphasis on, you know, sort of normalizing
a certain band but still keeping them in the
gender box that they started with, and it’s
almost an amazing thing to me just human – the
human desire to express our authentic self
somehow that really is so early and shows
up in our language that somebody can say at
a very young age, “No, I know that, but
that’s not what I’m saying.”
You know, “No, I’m trying to tell you
that it’s okay if, you know, some girls
like those things and they’re not a boy,
but I like those things and I am a boy, even
though you think I’m a girl,” and you
– and I think what’s perplexing is that
we often don't think that children have that
capacity when in fact we see in a thousand
different ways.
I mean, everybody that’s a parent or a teacher
or works with young kids actually sees that
happen in day-to-day living, but when it falls
outside the realm of what we expect or what
we’re comfortable with maybe as adults then
we start to question and say, “Well, is
that really okay?”
And it’s scary and if we haven’t thought
about it, it’s really confusing and that
I completely get.
We just have to be careful not to go that
next step and say, “Oh so, therefore the
child’s wrong,” honestly if I’m just
uncomfortable.
Hillary: Having to add to that, I will tell
you that even when Ryland was before transition,
he would, you know, we allowed him to wear
more boyish-type clothing and, you know, let
him play with whatever toys he wanted to,
but he knew that he had to walk even a thin
line with us because we were okay with him
being a tomboy, but it was like, I mean, he
started to pick on social cues that we were
giving him without even realizing it, and
I think kids are smart and they know that
– they can see parents being comfortable
with certain things, and…
Lisa: Yeah.
True.
Hillary: I think a lot of the times they can
change their tune just to kind of make their
parents happy because at the end of the day,
I think a lot of us want to make our parents
happy because at the end of the day, I think
a lot of us want to make our parents happy
and, you know, that was a big struggle for
us just knowing that, you know, Ryland could
do some things but then, once he sort of pushed
it over the edge, we kind of, you know, have
a little push back, and so…
Jeff: Two things on that which one just leads
to an entirely different conversation, but
I always feel the need to mention it within
that - the term tomboy drives me crazy and
it drives me crazy because that’s what everyone
kind of classified Ryland as for so long.
It’s just, Ryland’s a tomboy.
She’s a tomboy and so that.
Hillary: And it was celebrated.
Jeff: And it’s celebrated, and I said, “You
know, what is the equally respected term for
the - when everyone identifies as a little
boy who feels he is – or who identifies
as a girl?”
Hillary: Who wants to wear dresses at school.
Jeff: …and wants to wear dresses.
Lisa: That’s true.
Jeff: Is it a socially acceptable term?
So, why do we have this double standard?
And so, anyway, so that kind of gotten just
a little bit further, but the other part about,
you know, you touch on these children of that
age knowing - They do know, and it’s really
interesting when we allow them to express
that and we start listening, and one of the
hardest things you have to do as a parent
is step back for a moment, so I’m going
to put my kid in the driver’s seat for a
second which is scary because that’s not
what we’re taught to do as parents.
We’re taught to guide our children, to lead
them through these early parts of their life.
We’re in the driver’s seat, set the rules,
set the boundaries, and putting them in the
front seat is scary, but you kind of have
in these situations, that’s what we ended
having it with Ryland is you know what, you
need to show us where this is going because
as soon as we allowed him to guide us a little
bit, then it was much clear what we were dealing
with and what we had, you know, where we were
going with this, so it’s difficulty.
Hillary: Yeah.
And he wanted to make us happy, and I think
once he got…
Jeff: Yeah.
Hillary: The okay from us that we will love
him no matter what and that we would help
him, you know, and he could be honest with
us, I think that was a huge breakthrough for
him even at 5 years old just to know, “Wow!
Mom and dad are going to love me even if I
really am a boy.”
Lisa: Right.
Hillary: Do you know what I mean?
Lisa: I absolutely do, and I think also the
importance of that – what you’re hitting
on is that, you know, I think a lot of parents
don’t want to open the box because they’re
afraid.
They don’t know what to do once the box
is opened.
What happens when child says this is who I
am?
I think the challenge is to just be okay,
that you don’t need to know yet.
All that you’re doing in that moment which
is what you did was to say, “We’re listening,
like we’re going to expect and you tell
us.”
You didn’t yet know what was going to be
required or what’s going to be needed.
All you were saying was, “Let’s take this
next step and the next step is tell us who
you are.
You’re trying to tell us.
We’ve been trying to tell you who you are.
How about you tell us who you are.”
At least in this one area and I think that
can just feel really frightening to parents
because the next step is an, “Oh!
And then what?”
But you don’t need to know and it doesn’t
necessitate anything.
You have to been sort of made those decisions
for himself… [phone ringing] Jeff: I’m
sorry here.
It’s just somebody…
Lisa: Don’t worry about it.
Jeff: Apparently, your phone’s connected
to…
Hillary: So, I didn’t know my phone was
connected…
Lisa: That’s life, right?
Don’t worry about it.
But I think, you know, it’s such an important
point and so important to me in that it can
feel really uncomfortable Jeff when you know,
you’re told you’re supposed to not only
be only the driver’s seat, but you’re
supposed to be able to control this.
There’s this fantasy and I told this story
one time when I was on an airplane, I’m
sitting next to this guy and somehow, he started
talking for reasons I can’t even remember,
about being a parent and he’s talking.
He’s going on and on about this, you know,
his parenting philosophy, and all this stuff,
and I said, “Well, I got to tell you, I
feel like every day, it’s an improvisation.
I have no idea of the best thing to do.
I do my best.
I don’t always meet the mark with my two
kids, but wow, you really seem to feel comfortable,”
then I said, “So how many kids do you have
and how old are they?”
And he says, “Oh, I don’t have any kids
yet.”
[laughter] Lisa: It’s like, “Oh yeah,
the most certain I ever was, was before I
was a parent,” and then the actually children
showed up and it ends up.
It’s just infinitely more complicated.
Jeff: Really easy to give advice when you
don’t have your own.
Hillary: Right.
[laughter] Lisa: Exactly.
Exactly.
Jeff: Yeah.
Lisa: So, I think, you know that’s one of
those things and I think, you know, as you
said, just, you know, when you realize, listen,
my child’s in pain.
This is not working.
My telling them who they are and what their
gender isn’t happening That’s just not
– it doesn’t - how about I listen and
let’s not worry yet about what this means.
Let’s not worry about all the answers.
I do not have the questions.
I don’t even thought of.
Let’s just start by having a conversation…
Jeff: Absolutely.
Lisa: And then listening and the power of
that, the healing and the love that that can
create and engender is really a powerful thing.
Yeah.
That’s true.
Jeff: I agree.
Hillary: I joke about it but this was not
written about in that thick book that I read
when I was pregnant called What to Expect
When You’re Expecting because I read it
from cover to cover and I thought I knew everything
I needed to know.
Lisa: That’s right.
Hillary: It really should be added by the
way.
Lisa: It really should be added.
It’s just – it’s not so simple, right?
It’s exactly – maybe it’ll come out
the next edition…
Jeff: Right.
Exactly.
Lisa: Since it became the bible along the
way.
[sighing] Lisa: So, brought up a couple of
the questions that we were – we had talked
about covering some of the things that come
up and maybe we’ll hit on a couple of those
briefly and then I do want to ask you guys,
I think a question about managing this once
it does raise itself as an issue having to
manage it, but I know some of the sort of
common questions or misconceptions that some
of the people they're going to watch us might
be having is, you know, one when we addressed,
“Are the kids too young to know?”
And I think we’ve talked about that.
I think one of the other issues is gender
choice and I think at least what I hear you
saying and certainly our experience in our
work is that gender is not a choice.
You can choose what to about your gender,
but how will I experience myself is a very
internal process and it isn’t one that you
make your choice bad.
Is there else you would add to that or anything
you think that we said…
Jeff: No.
I would agree.
I mean that’s awesome.
The conclusion that we came to and that - Ryland
has never shown it to be a choice.
You ask him, if you talk to Ryland even though
he’s almost 8 years old, he’ll tell you,
“I didn’t choose this.
This was something that I felt since I was
very young,” and what was just a further
evidence of that for us is just talking to
older transgender folks who just said that
they had felt this way for as long as they
could possibly remember, that was not a choice,
as you said.
It was just a choice or when they felt like
they had the ability to make a transition
and to live authentically.
It was more a matter of when they chose to
express that gender that they had…
Lisa: Yes.
Jeff: Felt since, you know, since early [crosstalk]
Hillary: And I mean just a note on that too,
I know that not all people know, as young
as Ryland, and I think it’s important to
note…
Lisa: True.
Hillary: That not everyone’s experiences
are the same and that’s something that I’m
constantly learning that not all kids feel
this way at Ryland’s age, but…
Jeff: But a part of that is giving them a
language though and even having the conversation
and allowing them to understand what the possibilities
are and are not because a lot of, and I’m
sorry, I just talked over you…
Hillary: No, it’s alright.
Jeff: A lot of transgender people that we’ve
spoken with have said that I wish this had
been an option for me when I was younger.
I wish I’d known this was a possibility
when I was younger, but the conversation wasn’t
there.
The language wasn’t there.
We didn’t talk about this, so it wasn’t
felt to be an option.
Hillary: Didn’t have the internet back then.
Jeff: Yeah.
So, anyway.
Lisa: Yeah.
Hillary: Or, no, no, or resources.
You know, you think about little kids growing
up in rural areas, they may not even get to
meet someone lesbian or gay in their neighborhood,
so I can imagine that this was even, you know,
it’s 50 times harder years ago and even
for us.
When we went through this with Ryland in 2012,
even at that point, the only – I mean, there
were very few resources available and not
a ton on the internet like there is now, so
I feel like the more that we’re talking
about this, the more, you know, doing things
like this, it’s good.
I think people just need to know that this
is really something that can happen with children.
Lisa: Well, and it’s so true and you guys
raised a lot of great points in that, that
not all kids come to it at the same time and
for a lot of reasons, you just say Jeff, sometimes
it’s just access to language or resource
information.
I think that’s changing a lot, so that’s
interesting.
We certainly in the book that Stephanie and
I wrote, one of the things that we try to
address is that some parents, the first time
they’re hearing this when their kid is a
teenager.
Jeff: Right.
Lisa: And teens communicate in some interesting
ways.
I mean, we’ve heard some really funny stories.
We’ve also heard some really sad stories,
but I think one of the ways in which we – I
think each person comes to this understanding
and at whatever point feels that there’s
simply at that point where it needs to be
expressed, maybe privately to parents or privately
to friends depending on where they are and
the situation that they’re living in, but
at some point, it finds its way to an authentic
expression of themselves and then I think
it’s not linear at that point, so it’s
not like, I mean, I still may try things on,
right?
I mean, when there’s so many things and
Jeff your point about there’s not equivalent
for boys to a tomboy is really, really important.
We talk about that a lot too and so it’s
very difficult.
How do you try something on when everybody
is shaping or trying to define you and then
how do you find your voice in the midst of
that?
Some of it has to be exploration.
It doesn’t mean you’re going to know inferior
that it’s always going to take the same
shape, but that fundamental sense of self
which is different than what I choose to wear
or how I choose to express it, that sense
of self, even if what I call it changes, I
think that actually is the stable part that
the American Academy of Pediatrics is talking
about.
So, I’m like as I realize that there’s
not just two names for gender but there’s
been literally I mean, an infinite number
of names for gender, I might change whether
I identify as one thing or another, but it’s
only an evolving language that I’m trying
to apply to an internal experience, and I
think that’s one of the things that you’re
trying to hit on to.
I think one of things too that comes up for
parents is, you know, “Did we do this?”
Right?
“Is this – did this happen because of
us?”
And I’m always saddened when I hear it because
I know in their mind that is all this blame
that parents get, right?
“You did this.”
“You really wanted, whatever, a boy or a
girl,” which is… [laughter] Hillary: Yeah.
Lisa: It’s fat to really capture out, ridiculous
that is, but…
Jeff: Go home and try and change the gender
of any your children who are…
Lisa: Yeah.
[laughter] Jeff: Good luck with them.
I hope it goes – it’s not going to be
pretty.
Lisa: Yeah.
Good luck to that, and many have tried and
it hasn’t worked out that long.
Exactly.
And they think why they think it’s sad,
there’s no parent says, "Did I create my
cisgender child, either?"
Just the truth is it’s not a parenting issue.
It’s an – you know, gender is an internal
thing for each one of us and I think when
I do try to find some comforting words I think
for parents which is to say, “If your child
is expressing their gender and that gender
does not fit what they’ve been told and
what’s decided, he’s telling them that
is an act of love and trust and faith that
your child is expressing for you because if
they don't feel that, they will not.
It’s in all the reasons you said Hillary,
they want to protect you.
They want to protect their relationship with
you.
I mean, a child will not risk love unless
they really feel there’s no recourse.
Jeff: Right.
Lisa: So, I think when a child expresses that
at whatever age they do, whether it’s a
younger child or a teenager, what they’re
saying to you is, “I love you and I’m
desperately counting on you to continue to
love me.”
Hillary: Yeah.
Absolutely.
Lisa: I think that’s the important thing
that parents need to know.
Jeff: Absolutely.
One of them.
Hillary: I couldn’t agree with you more.
That’s make me a little emotional because
it’s true.
If your child trusts you enough to tell you
who they are, then it’s almost a gift…
Lisa: Yeah.
Hillary: "I'm telling you I love you and I
need your help,” you know.
I mean, the alternative is we know what the
alternative is and it’s not pretty, so…
Jeff: And they have to, and to that we might
got trust that you’re still going to love
me.
Like, "I trust that you will still love me
if I tell you that - and I express myself
in this way."
Lisa: Absolutely.
Jeff: Too many kids don’t feel that trust.
They don’t have that trust, and yeah, it
just goes down bad roads, so.
Hillary: And I think too, I mean, the thing
that really breaks my heart is when I talk
to families who have deep religious roots
that sometimes get in the way of that.
I think that’s been a huge struggle for
this community, just not feeling – feeling
like they’re going to be ostracized from
their faith community, whatever that may be,
and I think that that’s heartbreaking to
me.
I feel like whoever your God is, he wants
you to love your child first and foremost
and that’s just one thing that sort of hits
home for me.
I just never want kids to feel like three
can’t be who they are because they’re
going to be kicked off, you know, whatever
faith that they belong to, so yeah, I mean
it’s heartbreaking.
I’m sure you see it too.
Lisa: Yeah.
I mean, we absolutely do and it’s so important
and I just, I do want to say one more thing
about faith before we move off to the next
topic which is just, I mean, I know that when
I was a teenager I didn’t come from a religious
family.
We were not a church-going family, but when
I was a teenager, I did come into very personally
important spiritual understanding of myself,
and I found such great comfort in that at
a time when I was really struggling with who
I was and wondering, and I think that one
– and I remember reading and my personal
faith tradition is in Christianity and I was
reading the New Testament, and I remember
this moment where I just would realize that
the most profound message in all that I was
reading was about love.
Hillary: Yup.
Absolutely.
Lisa: And that’s the thing that has always
stayed with me and that’s the thing that
I just try to remind all youth in particular,
that if they feel like there’s a conflict,
the fundamental tenets of faith is love and
that we are all part of this creation, and
I think it is incredibly sad if at the point
that you most need the comfort of a faith
that you feel like that faith is not available.
That can destroy you.
Hillary: Absolutely.
Lisa: And it’s a really serious thing.
So, I’m glad you raised that.
Yeah.
I feel really strongly similar about that
issue because for some, that’s the only
thing they have if they’re experiencing
rejection by family and maybe at school among
friends, and others, for them to have that
one place that they can hold on to and if
they can’t, that really can be the thing
that just makes it too much for them to deal
with.
Hillary: I agree 100%.
Lisa: So, one of the things we’ve touched
on a little bit too is just, so at whatever
point, this – you know your child’s gender
becomes the focus for a family.
It can just your world upside.
It literally takes sort of the life that you’ve
imagine and that you’ve been trying to create
and sort of causes it into question, to come
into question and there’s just so many things
that are really challenging that it is not
about your child.
It’s just about what the topic coming in
means and you wrestle with individually.
In families where’s two parents, it’s
also challenging I think to because you’ve
come to different understandings, you have
different histories, you’re on your own
time tables.
You’ve got all these stuff going on and
I know this is a big topic and we could probably
spend the whole time just talking about that
we don’t have enough time today to do that,
but I was wondering if you could maybe just
touch briefly on how you’ve navigated this
in your life, and I know that sometimes, it
falls to the mom to sort of take the lead
if there’s a mother and father in the family
and sometimes, what becomes sort of a practical
decision early on, like, “Okay.
You go to research and report back.”
Eventually, it can become and Jeff, I know
sometimes it means the dad sometimes initially
gets sort of relegated to the sidelines, but
sometimes, that can become structural.
It’s equally isolating for both parents
because each of you is struggling with that
and I don’t know your story on that, but
I’m just wondering if you could just say
a little bit about, you know, was this true
for you in your family and how you navigated
that a bit in terms of, you know, over the
years, I know that it’s still, I’m sure
it’s not an issue that's over, but, you
know, how you’ve started off seeing this
in your own experience?
Jeff: Yeah.
I mean it was a struggle.
It was definitely two different journeys for
quite some time.
We were on different paths.
I kind of chose to be on the sideline and
I think it is.
Oftentimes, it’s based upon you own personal
fears, your own experiences, your own environment.
You know, I at the time was working as a full-time
firefighter and a very kind of what is often
times very, oh for lack of a better term,
kind of a macho, you know., it’s just, I
don’t feel comfortable discussing what was
going on at home, so I really kind of just
clammed up.
I didn’t want to talk about it.
Hillary was involved in research and she was,
you know, throughout which she was around
Ryland every day.
She had the conversations with Ryland.
I was gone a lot because I was working so
much and just didn’t want to talk about
it.
For me, Ryland was already, you know, we were
dealing with the deaf diagnosis and the cochlear
implants.
I felt Ryland already stood out a little bit.
I could not wrap my head around another – something
that we need to deal with, another thing that
could make Ryland, I guess in my – what
I was thinking that, you know, make Ryland
different.
Make Ryland an outcast.
I was afraid of what it would mean with our
friends, what it would mean with our family,
what it would mean with Ryland’s friends,
what – I mean, I was completely 100% I should
say mostly fear based on what was going to
happen.
Hillary charged forward.
It brought us to near divorce.
I mean, we just could not get on the same
page, and as you said, we’ve seen this with
a number of families that are within our support
group, another who for six months his wife
would the meetings and he would not come at
all, wanted nothing to do anything and now,
he is one of the strongest advocates I’ve
ever seen.
We all – it’s our own journey and I think
that’s why we chose to go public with it
because one of the things, and this isn’t
the case for everyone and we acknowledged
that, but one of the things that I think for
us, those fears that we’ve had along the
way often times had been way too built-up
within out self.
They didn’t pan out the way that were afraid,
you know, that things that - our community
was accepting.
You know, Ryland didn’t lose friends and
we’ve lost some people, and yes, some of
it’s been a struggle.
We had some really tough conversations, but
for the most part, we didn’t need to fear
as much as we did and so we won't feel to
understand and see that because I think that,
that fear can be that – that’s the big
thing they can keep you from taking that next
step into affirming your child.
Hillary: But I think we’ve lucky to - I
don’t know why we’ve had a such a positive
experience for the most part but we have and
feel like, I feel like because of our experience,
I feel like it's our duty to stand up for
this community because the amount of sad stories
that I read or you know that I deal with on
a constant level just makes me realize that
not all communities are this open and loving
and there are some really horrible things
that go on to families that are going – that
are on this journey, and so I just think it’s
important that we would be just help in any
way we can, educate people and make them realize
that you know, Ryland - it’s funny, there’s
nothing that goes on here that isn’t like
any other family.
I mean, the kids come home from school.
They want a snack.
You know, we don’t – it’s not this like
big weird thing and truthfully, we don’t
even think about gender anymore.
I don’t even – we don’t use the word
transgender in our home unless it comes from
Ryland, there just no need…
Jeff: Oh, and that’s not like, that’ we’re
not trying to avoid it’s just.
Hillary: It’s just.
Jeff: It’s just not a big topic of conversation
anymore.
It really isn’t.
Lisa: Right.
Hillary: He just like – he’s just a kid
who wants to play with his friends and have
dessert after dinner, you know.
[laughter] Lisa: Or before too, if he probably
could.
Hillary: Before.
Jeff: Before.
And wouldn’t eat his vegetables, but that’s
a whole thing.
[laughter] Lisa: That’s right.
If he really could.
Hillary: I think it’s important that we
normalize this a little bit, and yeah, we’ve
had more hurdles than most families, but in
the big picture, you know, this isn’t life
or death if you support your kind and it could
be worse.
It really could, you know.
He’s not on a ventilator.
He’s not in, you know, he’s not in the
hospital.
He’s a healthy happy kid.
We just need to make sure we educate those
around us so that he’s continued to be supported
and society realizes that we’ve done nothing
wrong and he’s perfect the way he is, so…
Jeff: And I think one of the things that just
kind of going back to that for a moment, the
– I think just knowing ahead of time that
the husband and wife or the – whoever, whether
it’s husband, husband and wife, wife, whoever
it’s the parent I should just say, that
the parents may be on two different journeys.
I think acknowledging that and knowing that
ahead of time is important because you then
can kind of empathize with the other person
and see when you’re on a different path
and trying to figure out and understand why
the other person is kind of reacting the way
that they’re reacting.
I don’t think we were just so blind going
into this journey.
We didn’t know where, we don’t know.
You’re just so afraid and I think we just,
we were unable to connect in that way and
we didn’t know if either one of us was ever
going to come back together, and be on the
same path, and we definitely are on the same
journey now.
I mean, there’s – I can’t even think
of the last time that we had any sort of disagreement
as to like how we’re handling Ryland’s
situation and how we’re advocating for him
and we’re pretty much, you know.
Hillary: But like, I mean, just I want to
touch a little bit on the support.
Each parent needs support in their own way
and, you know, Jeff's way of dealing with
it was he clammed up, didn’t want to talk
about it.
I, on the other hand, was like enough to have
TYFA there’s online support groups that
parents have now that is so powerful and important
and I think a lot to the parents out there
who are divorced.
I can’t even imagine having to deal with
something just eager to make and be completely
on different sides of the room, you know,
but it’s possible and there’s a lot of
support out there now.
I mean, I know you guys are a huge resource
at gender spectrum and we’re lucky now that
we have more resources.
Lisa: Yeah.
It’s so right.
I think that that getting support is essential.
Whatever that support looks like to you and
it may take a little while, as you say Jeff,
to get to figuring out, maybe you need that
time to just go and figure out what’s going
on and think about it on your own and maybe,
and that’s not for everyone, but ultimately,
I think figuring out what that support looks
like and I think that, you know, there are
books today, like Raising Ryland, that I think
are helpful.
I think also The Transgender Teen and Transgender
Child that talk about these general issues.
Sometimes I think what’s wonderful about
individual stories is that it gives you a
deeper sense of a journey, some of which will
apply but some of which won't but you still
see there’s a journey and everybody’s
on their own journey and that’s really helpful.
I think, you know, there’s just so many
ways, and I know, I mean, one of the questions
we got was a parent for today’s event was
about a parent concerned about child protective
services being contacted and that’s not,
you know, it’s not an unheard of thing.
Thankfully, it’s, you know, generally now
if they get contacted, there’s enough and
even in the most conservative parts of the
country, certainly if somebody does have a
bad experience, they should reach out to Gender
Spectrum and we would work to find support
for them, but it’s still a fear that lives
with many parents that is just by loving and
listening to your child and supporting them
that this is going to happen, and I think
it’s really important to name that this
is a really difficult and confusing time and
finding support in a place that you can go
to whether that’s, you know, Gender Spectrum
or TYFA, or Gender Odyssey or any of the organizations
that are supporting you, if they’re going
to a PFLAG meeting, they’re going to the
– if there’s an LGBT, QIA, or whatever
acronym they have center near you, doing – going
to an online group, doing whatever it is that
you can to just find a place as a parent to
say, “Hey, this is where I am today.”
Hillary: And you’re not alone.
Lisa: And you’re not alone.
It’s just incredibly, incredibly powerful.
Jeff: There’s a lot of parents out there
who’ve been through this journey who are
willing to offer support and willing to be
the ear, and to - absolutely, and it’s important
to find that and going to Gender Spectrum
was very powerful for us, very powerful, and
we…
Hillary: As a family, we grew a lot.
Jeff: Yeah.
Hillary: After attending…
Jeff: I was exhausted after that weekend.
[laughter] Jeff: I said [crosstalk] oh my
goodness!
Lisa: Stop - exactly.
[laughter] You said to go, right?
Isn’t it over?
Yeah.
Jeff: Yeah.
I know but in a great way, like it was really…
Hillary: Ryland loved it.
Jeff: It was just, it was powerful.
There was a lot to learn.
There was a lot to understand.
There were some great connections made, a
lot of support, a lot of just – it was great.
I know Ryland loved it.
It was phenomenal, so.
Hillary: Yeah.
And I think it’s important for kids to see,
you know, and meet someone that’s like them,
you know, it may not, but just someone that
they can relate too.
I think that’s been so powerful for our
family and I think many of the families out
there, if there’s a way for them to meet
someone in their area who they can relate
it, you know, a gender creative child that
is along the same age as theirs, it’s huge.
Absolutely huge.
Jeff: Yeah.
Lisa: I agree.
Well, I know we’ve only been able to hit
on just the top level of just a couple of
issues, but I really want to thank you both,
Hillary and Jeff Whittington.
Thank you so much for taking time today.
Thank you for your terrific book, Raising
Ryland.
I appreciate that and I just really value
the time that you took to have this conversation
today and to help share your experience with
parents, so thank you very much.
Jeff: We appreciate it.
Hillary: You too, Lisa.
We’re happy to be here and I really enjoyed
your book as well, Transgender Teen, definitely
a must-read for families on this journey.
Thank you for what you do, we appreciate it.
Lisa: Thank you.
All right.
Well, have a great day and we’ll connect
soon hopefully on some other topic we could
cover together.
Jeff: Sounds good.
Hillary: Sounds good Lisa.
Have a good one.
Lisa: Bye.
Thank you.
