♪ (SOUNDWAVE) ♪
(RADIO STATIC BUZZES)
MAN: You're tuning in
 to Lovecraft Country Radio.
There's some strong language
and spoilers ahead.
Buckle up.
LETI LEWIS: (PANTING)
Sorry.
I realized I started my month.
ATTICUS FREEMAN: It's okay.
Hey. No big deal.
LETI: See you downstairs?
ASHLEY FORD: Woo. All right.
So, uh, that happened.
That happened.
We saw that.
SHANNON HOUSTON:
We did. We saw it.
We liked it.
I think we liked it.
I liked it.
ASHLEY: I liked it.
I liked it.
Yes, I did. Yes.
Yes, yes.
SHANNON: I think primarily
we just experienced
a spiritual and sexual
awakening that I know
will mark me
for the rest of my life.
ASHLEY: I am inclined to agree.
I feel we are bonded now.
Uh, true sisters
in the ever long
and just never ending love
-of this particular sex scene.
-SHANNON: Yeah.
ASHLEY:
I think that that's true.
SHANNON: We have some shit
to unpack, right?
-We have some things.
-ASHLEY: We do.
Let's get started.
This is "Episode 3: Holy Ghost."
(UPBEAT MUSIC PLAYING)
ASHLEY: All right. Welcome
to Lovecraft Country Radio.
I'm Ashley C. Ford.
Podcast host, writer,
and horror enthusiast.
SHANNON:
And I'm Shannon Houston.
A writer for the HBO series,
 Lovecraft Country
and mother to three,
free Black children.
ASHLEY: Amen.
Okay, Shannon,
we've got a lot to talk about
today.
And I know we both love talking
about this show, obviously.
But we have some friends
that love to talk
about this show too
and I think it's time we bring
one of them on.
SHANNON: I couldn't agree more,
Ashley.
Later in this episode,
we're going to call up
writer Daniel Jose Older.
Daniel is a fantasy writer
whose writing credits
include Star Wars
and this is a really amazing
fun fact,
Daniel is also responsible
for taking down H.P. Lovecraft
himself.
I can't wait to welcome him on
to the show.
ASHLEY: Listen,
I know the story.
I can't wait for you to hear
that story.
-SHANNON: I'm so psyched.
-ASHLEY: I can't wait
to talk about this
with Daniel
until then,
let's get into it, Shannon.
SHANNON: Okay.
So, everyone should know
this at this point,
I'm not the biggest
horror, gushy, body parts
falling out,
baby heads on big body monster.
I'm not that girl.
Um, but that doesn't mean
I didn't enjoy it.
This episode was jam-packed
with horror but Ashley,
I need your help.
Help, please.
ASHLEY: I loved this episode
for so many reasons.
It made me deeply emotional
in ways
that I didn't expect
which is, you know,
good for a TV show
but I mean,
I really didn't expect.
We're gonna start
with a quick recap.
In this episode,
we've got Leti purchasing
a house in a predominantly
white and racist part of town
that she soon discovers
is haunted.
Yay. We've got ghost.
Then she goes full detective
with Atticus trying
to piece together the horrific
history of this house.
SHANNON: Yes.
So, this is really our Leti
episode which means it's also
our Jurnee Smollett episode.
-ASHLEY: Oh, yes.
-SHANNON: Um, give her
her things,
give her her fucking things.
-ASHLEY: Immediately.
-SHANNON: Something that
we focused on
in the writer's room
was this idea of taking
a performative character
and bringing them into
something real.
So we always talked about
Leti as an activist
with good intentions
but somebody
who's performative in her
nature a lot of the time.
Um, and she uses that to her
advantage.
So, we want to talk about
taking somebody
who's moved through life
as a ghost, so to speak,
uh, never fully being her
authentic self-- with herself
and with others and we wanted
to put that person
in a situation where they had
to face themselves
and they had to face their
literal fucking ghost.
Um, so, Leti is really who's
guiding us through
a lot of the themes that we're
gonna talk about today.
ASHLEY: Yes. Yes, she is.
And boy does she do
an amazing job.
I think you're absolutely
right that it is imperative
that we give Jurnee Smollett-
Bell her things.
She is such an amazing actress
and has been one
for so long
and I just feel like
with this character,
I'm really getting
to see how good she is
in so many different facets.
So, I love that.
I love that this is
the Leti episode.
You know who else I love?
-SHANNON: Who-- whom else?
-ASHLEY: Dracula.
-And Dracula...
-SHANNON: Yes.
ASHLEY:
...is all up in this episode.
So I noticed very early on
in this story
that Dracula was being used
through the character
of Leti as well.
Um, because that's how we get
into one of the major themes
of this episode which
was resurrection.
-SHANNON: Uh-hmm.
-ASHLEY: In Dracula,
it's a very direct horror
element, okay?
It's a vampire.
It is a hundreds-year-old
dead person who drinks
the blood
of living people
to stay alive
and is powerful and can fly
and in some cases,
can turn into a bat,
in some cases,
can turn sparkly and make you
fall in love with him
just depending on
what kind of vampire
we're talking about.
SHANNON: My only real concept
like really--
when I see Dracula and when I
hear Dracula,
I'm like, "Oh yeah,
 Buffy Season 5.
Fucking the Dracula episode."
Ashley,
you got to get into this.
It was so good.
Dracula was so hot.
I felt so many different
emotions.
Um, I know, you know,
there are many Draculas
and I know you know
the original
and the literary Dracula
better than me.
-ASHLEY: I do.
-SHANNON: So, I'm gonna let you
keep diving in but I just wanna
say shout out to Buffy Season 5,
hot Dracula, it was everything.
ASHLEY:
You know, throughout history,
there have been a lot of hot
Draculas.
-SHANNON: Amen.
-ASHLEY: And if we're gonna call
Leti a Dracula, she gets added
to that side of the cannon.
She is absolutely a hot
Dracula.
The story of Dracula
as we're seeing played out
in this episode
and actually,
-it starts last episode.
-SHANNON: Right.
ASHLEY: That we get into that
Dracula thing
because that ends
when Leti died.
SHANNON: Yes.
And it's easy to forget that,
you know, we see her at the top
of this episode
in that incredible church scene
that we'll talk about later.
Um, and we know that something
is weighing on her
and in the room, we had to
constantly remind ourselves
-this is a character who died.
-ASHLEY: Right.
SHANNON: Uh, she was brought
back to life
but she died and in
episode 2 when you see her
run into the bathroom
and she's wrecked with grief,
that is her literally coming
back to life
and realizing,
"I was dead and now I'm alive
and I don't have any concept
of what that means."
And so what's-- what about
that experience
for Leti reminds you of Dracula?
ASHLEY: You know, I think
the biggest thing
that it reminds me of
is that when the undead
are reborn as vampires
in horror
and then as you see Leti
be reborn,
there is this craving
to consume life.
SHANNON: Ooh.
ASHLEY: And Leti has come out
of this death,
-ravenous for life.
-SHANNON: Yes.
ASHLEY: And in feeling
disconnected from it
as a vampire would,
also performing humanity.
SHANNON: Ooh.
ASHLEY: Because she
doesn't actually feel
connected to it yet.
She hasn't found her way
back to it yet.
The only difference here,
in my mind,
between Leti
and a vampire, you know,
that despite the, you know,
the blood thing,
which I'm using
as a metaphor here,
-is that she can get back.
-SHANNON: Yes.
ASHLEY: There is a way for her
to get back.
But everybody knows
that much like human death,
vampires cannot die,
it's just the rule.
It is an inverse rule,
once you're on the other side
of that thing.
And so it's almost like
in this episode,
she is reaching
for what feels impossible
because who's ever heard
of a vampire
becoming a living person again?
SHANNON: Oh. I love that.
I love the impossibility
of what she's up against.
And I feel like that's
what's weighing over her
and we've used the word,
"resurrection."
She was resurrected
in this, like,
kind of
completely fucked up way.
But she's been resurrected
almost into a ghost, right?
Like, she's not made flesh yet,
she's not fully human,
so she's doing that thing
you're talking about.
She's reaching, she's trying
different things
to make that connection,
and kind of, like,
performing a humanity.
And you can sort of see that
happening, like,
at the Winthrop House and this,
like, energy that she has,
"We're buying a house.
This is the house.
We're gonna change
the neighborhood,
-we're pioneering."
-ASHLEY: Right.
SHANNON: "Ruby and I
are gonna be, like,
best big and little sister again
or something."
And then of course,
we see this incredible sex scene
that you and I
-both really enjoyed.
-ASHLEY: Uh-hmm. Yes, we did.
SHANNON: This is also
an example of Leti's desire
to feel something or feel
lots of different things,
and it's playing out
in this episode.
How are we feeling about it?
I am personally feeling
quite good about this decision
on Leti's part.
ASHLEY: Well, let me tell you.
I think Leti
has made a great choice here.
SHANNON: Uh-hmm. Uh-hmm.
ASHLEY: I think this
is a fantastic choice.
I think sometimes you gotta
get it on to get down,
and I really, really loved
the way she went about it,
I'm not going to lie.
I think that was a very
powerful moment for her
and a powerful moment
for Atticus, you know.
They have this moment,
and, you know, like,
and then there's this blood,
which does not scare him.
-SHANNON: Uh-hmm.
-ASHLEY: You know what I mean?
He is curious,
but he is not afraid.
He really could have punked out
in that moment
and he didn't act like a punk,
and I just felt
in that blood, like,
that blood was, like,
the evidence
of a broken barrier.
-SHANNON: Ooh.
-ASHLEY: Right?
It was the aftermath
of the push through,
into life or into connection,
or into intimacy, like,
whatever it was,
it was this broken barrier
that will not be made over.
It will not ever be what it was.
And that's okay.
-SHANNON: That's okay.
-ASHLEY: That's okay.
-SHANNON: And I agree.
-ASHLEY: Because the barrier
needed to be broken.
SHANNON:
It needed to be broken. Amen.
ASHLEY: She wanted it.
And it needed to be
because she wanted it to be.
SHANNON: I agree. Atticus
becomes, like, 38% sexier
by not making a big deal
of the blood, like,
that's what I'm looking for,
I don't know.
-ASHLEY: Yes.
-SHANNON: Thank you. Yes.
-ASHLEY: Thank you. Yes.
-SHANNON: I was into it.
Um, also, like, first of all,
the party was just fucking fun,
like,
-we're all stuck in our houses.
-ASHLEY: Wasn't it?
SHANNON: I was like, "I wanna
party, I want to go to a party,
why am I not at this party?"
"Everybody at this party is hot,
I wanna sleep with Leti,
I wanna sleep with Atticus,
I wanna sleep
with the band members,
I wanna sleep with Hippolyta,
like, everybody."
But yes, this is also
an emotional scene.
Just before we see Tic
in the doorway,
we also see one of the ghosts,
which I love. Um--
-ASHLEY: Yes.
-SHANNON: --so there's also
this connection between Leti
and Tic's first time together,
and Leti being literally
haunted in this house.
ASHLEY: Oh, yeah.
Haunted in the house,
haunted by the fact
that performances catch up
-with you eventually.
-SHANNON: Uh-hmm.
ASHLEY:
You can't perform forever.
Like, at some point,
you're gonna break,
you're gonna bust out of that.
Because the truth of
the matter is, like,
sending your representative
ahead of yourself, you know,
which is performing is, like,
sending a hologram.
That's not a real person.
Eventually somebody gonna put
their hand through that shit.
Eventually,
somebody's gonna figure out
that something
in the milk ain't clean.
Eventually, somebody's gonna
see the thinness here, right?
SHANNON: The people who helped
Leti to see this side of herself
the way that she discovers
that she is being performative
to a degree,
it starts with the ghost.
-Like--
-ASHLEY: Yes.
SHANNON: --they are actually
a part of her journey.
So these aren't just scary
ghosts for the sake
of being scary ghosts.
We actually--
they all have a story,
they're all people in bodies
that have been basically
done wrong to a degree.
So Leti confronts
the realtist, uh--
-ASHLEY: Uh-hmm.
-SHANNON: --Jerome J. Jackson.
-Um...
-ASHLEY: Yes.
SHANNON: ...I mean,
is that not--is that, like,
the Blackest Blackity
Black name of all--
-Jerome J. Jackson. Um--
-ASHLEY: I might know him.
-SHANNON: (LAUGHS) You know him.
-ASHLEY: I might know him.
-SHANNON: You know Jerome.
-ASHLEY: I'm pretty sure I do.
I'm pretty sure I went
to middle school with him.
SHANNON: You sure did.
Um, you and me both.
She confronts him to find out
who owned the house
before she did
and he lets it slip
that it's called
the Winthrop House.
So now, we have all
these questions.
ASHLEY: Uh-hmm.
We have a lot of questions.
SHANNON: Leti's arrested
by Lancaster, the cop,
he questions her
about her knowledge
of the Winthrop House,
um, and this is where
we find out that the body parts
of eight Black people
were discovered
in what she's now using
as her dark room,
and we find out about
the last owner, Hiram Epstein,
this fucking creepy scientist...
-ASHLEY: So creepy.
-SHANNON: ...who was fired
from the University of Chicago
for experimenting on people.
Um, in that epic scene,
she finds this photo
-of Lancaster with Hiram, and...
-ASHLEY: Oh, yeah.
SHANNON: ...believes that
he supplied Hiram
with Black people,
who are featured
in these missing persons report.
So she's doing her own research
to figure out
what the hell is going on
in this house.
Let's take a minute to just
talk about creepy scientists
and the history
of creepy scientists,
-creepy doctors in America.
-ASHLEY: Oh, yeah.
-There's a lot of them.
-SHANNON: Yeah.
ASHLEY: A lot of creepy doctors,
a lot of stuff like
that going on.
As a matter of fact,
right here in New York,
we have a statue of a doctor
known for using
Black women's bodies
as experiments to iron out
any kinks, uh, before
attempting them on white women.
And, you know,
that's just in Manhattan.
There's a long history
of Black bodies being used
for medical experimentation.
We're talking about
the Tuskegee Experiments,
Henrietta Lacks,
gynecology as a rule.
-SHANNON: Yeah.
-ASHLEY: Okay?
Very much founded
on what happened
to Black women's bodies.
Um, we're considered disposable
in the eyes of science,
and were for a very long time.
I'm not saying that
that's still the case,
um, hopefully, it's not,
but for a very long time,
it was the case.
Um, and Deirdre Cooper Owens
is a historian
who coined the term
medical superbodies
to describe how Black women
who were enslaved
were looked at.
The medical industry
is racist as fuck to this day.
-SHANNON: Yes.
-ASHLEY: We know that.
-SHANNON: Yeah.
-ASHLEY: We know that.
But how do we see it
in this episode, right?
One of the ways that you see it
almost immediately is in
how these bodies
have been disposed, where they
would have been disposed.
The fact that obviously,
the families who lost
these family members never got
any resolution to figure out
where their people were
or how to bury them,
um, or dispose of their remains
in their own traditions
and in their own ways.
So you have that versus Tic
(LAUGHS)
trying to kill Christina.
SHANNON: Oh, my God.
Oh, my God.
ASHLEY: And being told, "You
have to be smarter than this."
-SHANNON: Woo.
-ASHLEY: "You can't just go
-around killing white women."
-SHANNON: "Killing white women."
CHRISTINA: Call me
 when you're ready to learn
more about our family legacy.
And Tic, really, you...
have to be smarter than this.
You know, you can't just go
around killing white women.
ASHLEY: And the resignation
to that fact.
How much is her
magic external
and how much of it
is already inside the person.
-SHANNON: (GRUNTS)
-ASHLEY: You know what I mean?
-Activated...
-SHANNON: Yeah.
ASHLEY: ...by the shit
she's saying here.
SHANNON: And I think what's--
so, like, what hurts
about that line is you know
it's true.
-You know...
-ASHLEY: Uh-hmm.
SHANNON: ...that eight
Black people can go missing
in a town and it could have
been in the '50s,
it could be today.
And there wouldn't be much
pomp and circumstance about it
unless Black people made it so.
And then this...
-ASHLEY: Absolutely.
-SHANNON: ...literally evil
white woman knows
that she cannot be killed
so simply that, that-- for
Atticus to even pull his gun out
is almost like an act
of suicide in and of itself.
-ASHLEY: Right.
-SHANNON: So Christina is, like,
terrifying and amazing
because she's so confident,
and she's not wrong,
and that's part of where her
confidence comes from, like,
she knows who she is,
she knows her place
in the society for better
or worse,
and she will use that
to her advantage
as much as she needs to.
So that line is, like,
weirdly funny,
but also just like,
"Holy shit. That's right.
You can't just go around
killing white women."
-ASHLEY: It's the absurdity.
-SHANNON: Yeah.
-ASHLEY: It's the absurdity.
-SHANNON: Yes.
So we have Leti grappling
with her physical
and spiritual self right now,
we have these ghosts
that live in her home.
You can't help but connect
all of that to her relationship
-with religion, uh...
-ASHLEY: Uh-hmm.
SHANNON: ...we literally see her
in a church in the first scene,
I love that scene so much.
-I love that audio so much.
-ASHLEY: Me, too.
WOMAN: Hey, Leti.
What did you do to make
a mark on this world?
What mountains did you climb?
Which angels gave you
their wings?
Which skies have you flown?
And when you reached
the heavens,
who was there to catch you
when you fell?
And did they tell you
that you saved them too,
like you saved me?
SHANNON: So I wanna talk
a little bit about
how we see the way
she maneuvers through
her religion and spirituality,
and how that connects
to, like, bigger themes
in the show.
ASHLEY: Oh, absolutely.
Because Leti-- I mean,
-she's resurrecting...
-SHANNON: Uh-hmm.
ASHLEY: ...people
who she has only just begun
to communicate with.
-But they ultimately help her...
-SHANNON: Yes.
ASHLEY: ...in this final act
of resistance against Hiram.
And it is such
an amazing moment
to have her call on
those spirits
in her time of need
and have them show up
so completely,
and in assisting her, um,
find themselves whole again
in a certain sense.
SHANNON: Yes. Okay.
So I think this is
the perfect conversation
to have with Daniel Jose Older,
don't you agree, Ashley?
ASHLEY: I do agree.
Let's bring him in.
-SHANNON: Yes.
-DANIEL JOSE OLDER: Hey.
How's it going?
-SHANNON: Hi.
-ASHLEY: Hi, Daniel.
DANIEL: I'm very happy
to be here.
I love this show.
I'm excited to talk about it.
ASHLEY: (LAUGHS)
I know you are.
SHANNON: Yes.
We're so excited to have you.
First, I need to hear
the details on this whole,
like, bringing down
H.P. Lovecraft.
Please, tell me everything.
DANIEL: So I wrote a-- I wrote
an essay about Lovecraft.
This was one of my first, uh,
published essays, uh,
it's on BuzzFeed.
And just about, you know,
how racist he was
and how messed up he was,
and also just grappling
with his work and its--
and its legacy.
And I was like, "You know,
this dude is the statue,
he is the face,
the literal face
of the World Fantasy Award,"
which is like
one of science fiction
and fantasy's Oscars, you know?
Like, it's really a huge prize
to win as a writer.
And that's just so messed up.
And people have been talking
about how messed up it is
for a long time.
But I started a petition
that said we should put
Octavia Butler in instead
-because we should, you know.
-ASHLEY: Hard agree.
DANIEL: Because we should.
Octavia Butler
should be everywhere.
-SHANNON: Amen.
-DANIEL: And every writer
I know has been inspired
by her.
I know I owe so much to her.
Like she is so huge
in my own career,
in my own inspiration.
So, you know, I was like,
"That's where she should be."
And it got a lot of traction
and it went international
and it really upset
a lot of people
which was amazing,
-the right people. And--
-SHANNON: We love it.
DANIEL: Yeah. So then,
that year, I was nominated
for a World Fantasy Award.
So I actually got to go
to the ceremony to watch
them very awkwardly announce.
So, you know, as it happens,
Lovecraft won't be the face
of the World Fantasy Award.
And I got a lot of hate mail
about it
and I'm very happy that
it happened and here we are.
SHANNON: Yes. Amen. Amen.
And I feel like there's
a connection between that
and also what we're seeing Leti
go through in Episode 3.
-Meaning like...
-DANIEL: Right.
SHANNON: ...what you take
from different religions,
spirituality, beliefs, like
what we talked about earlier
is Leti is using
a lot of different tools
to figure out what's going on,
to get these ghosts out
of her house to also like
grow as a person.
So let's talk
a little bit about Leti
and spirituality and like
your understanding
and your experience
of this episode.
DANIEL: I felt very moved
by that scene. Just in that--
first of all, the creepy stuff
was so creepy, right?
And then we get to this
really triumphant moment
that like we-- I feel like
we felt it coming
for the whole episode and then
it just explodes outward.
And, you know, she really does
call on the ancestors
to lift her up
and that's just such
an explicitly empowering thing
into itself
because the history
of the ghost story
is always the ghosts of the past
coming to kill us, you know.
And we're supposed
to fear our ancestors
and they eat our brains
and hide in closets
and everything else.
But like so many of us,
so many people of color,
you know, come up in households
that in one tradition or another
honor our ancestors.
You know, like we have an altar
up in my house
and we hang out with it.
When we cook, they get food.
When we are confused,
we smoke cigars
and ask them for help.
And that's what it is,
you know what I mean?
So to see that-- that's always
what I've tried to honor
in my own work as, like, really
creating a counter-narrative
to the ghost story
where the ancestors
literally lift us up.
And that's really what
we see happening,
like she is fighting fire
with fire
but in such a powerful
and empowering way.
-It's tremendous.
-SHANNON: Yeah.
And there's
a reciprocal nature, right?
-DANIEL: Uh-hmm.
-SHANNON: She is giving
something back to the ghost
and they're giving
-something back to her.
-DANIEL: I love that.
And right, they're healed,
like they're explicitly healed
by the work that she does
with them
and I feel like that's another
thing we don't talk a lot about
is that, like, spirituality
whatever system you practice...
-ASHLEY: Uh-hmm.
-DANIEL: ...is a conversation,
right?
It's not just you
being dictated to from on high,
which I think is how
we see it a lot
and particularly
in Western traditions.
But like we're always
in conversations
with our spirits, you know,
like the creative process
is a spiritual conversation,
like anytime that we pray,
-we're listening.
-ASHLEY: Uh-hmm.
DANIEL: And we're speaking
and we're giving back
and we're taking.
And that's always, you know--
but it's not transactional
necessarily.
It's not like just like,
"Oh, you pick something,"
and then you get something, like
that's a very capitalist model.
But conversational
is different, right?
Like she's in conversation
with those spirits
and it's a conversation
about healing.
SHANNON: Yes. I love it.
And Ashley, we were talking
before about like the things
Black people don't touch.
And if you grew up Christian,
like I grew up Baptist.
I'm not in the church anymore.
But if you grow up
-with certain traditions...
-DANIEL: Right.
SHANNON: ...ghosts and spirits
and it's so like--
it's so bizarre because it's
like there's a million ghosts
-in the bible.
-DANIEL: Yeah.
SHANNON: There's one
really important ghost
who literally died for us all.
-DANIEL: Right.
-SHANNON: But it's like
we still--
we don't talk about that.
-DANIEL: Don't talk about that.
-SHANNON: He came back flesh,
-it's not creepy at all.
-DANIEL: Yeah. Yup.
SHANNON: It's fucking creepy.
It's wonderful but it's creepy.
Let's talk a little bit
about that too like
the things that we're afraid of.
ASHLEY: Yeah. One of the things
that I noted in the show
was this group of Black kids
playing with the Ouija board,
because I immediately
in my mind was like,
"Oh, this is where
they jump the shark,"
because Black kids don't play
with Ouija boards.
You know what I mean?
And that--
and then that the Ouija board
would then say,
-"George is dead."
-DANIEL: Yo...
-ASHLEY: Like that is what--
-DANIEL: That was it, right?
ASHLEY: The Ouija board said
and it was not only terrifying.
It was really hard for me
to even fathom
that it could happen.
And I just-- I know that like
you not only have
a personal history
but you have, I think
a really deep knowledge period
of, like, spirituality and like
having those conversations
with other people
about spirituality,
because when you come
from a background
or when you talk to people
about your spiritual background
and it's not the dominant one
in, like, the community,
it can be-- people's reactions
can be intense
and they can be scared
and all of those things.
Where do you think that
comes from like why are we
so afraid
of the spiritual realm?
Why are we so afraid
of the idea that we interact
with the spiritual realm
and that the spiritual realm
interacts with us?
DANIEL: Well, I will say
I think some of it
in terms of like specifically
the ghost story
always being a horrible thing,
I do think a lot of that
has to do with being afraid
of the past and like having
shame around history,
whether that's shame of how
fucked up your people have been
or how fucked up your people got
by the people
who were being fucked up,
there's all different levels
of shame that I think history
has taught us to feel.
And that is, like, personified
by the ghosts,
like the ghosts is literally
history walking with us,
you know, in a very real way
and like how we relate
to our own history
has so much to do
with how we understand ghosts.
I also think there's a level
in Latin America particularly
where like anti-Blackness
plays such a strong role
in the way that...
-ASHLEY: Uh-hmm.
-DANIEL: ...people perceive
different religions, right?
So there's like
this common saying
that like a lot of folks
in Cuba or in Brazil, like,
Cuba's like a hundred percent
Catholic
but also a hundred percent,
you know, Santero, right?
-ASHLEY: Uh-hmm.
-DANIEL: Like folks will be
practicing their full religion
and also doing stuff on the side
but they won't be admitting it.
And they'll mark off Catholic
on the census or whatever.
You know what I mean?
But like don't go
to the Bible as soon as shit
-gets real and fucked up.
-ASHLEY: Right.
DANIEL: And they'll be doing
all of that work.
You know what I mean?
Like when I was a medic,
we would go into people's houses
who would swear up and down.
They are one hundred
percent Catholic.
Don't mess with that shit
at all.
They will have their ancestors
up, you know.
I remember explicitly
we came in one time,
this guy was dead. Literally
his heart had stopped
and his ancestor altar
was all types of dusty
and messed up and left behind.
And like here's one
of those dudes
that shouldn't come back
to life.
You know, we were working
him up. Nothing was working.
We're throwing all kinds
of meds at him.
And I just walked over to
the ancestor altar and I'm like,
-"Go get your guy."
-ASHLEY: Uh-hmm.
DANIEL: And then I left the room
to make a phone call
to call one of the doctors
to get some more meds.
I walked in, the dude was alive.
Dude had a pulse.
-SHANNON: Oh, my God.
-ASHLEY: Oh, my God.
DANIEL: And I was like,
"Come along, Mi Gente,
get it together like
take care of your altars."
Like, you know, altars will
take care of you if you
take care of them.
You know what I mean?
But, you know, we-- it's--
-anti-Blackness...
-ASHLEY: Yeah.
DANIEL: ...is deep
in our communities.
You know what I mean?
And it really causes people
to fall off on their spiritual
practice on the strength
of thinking that they're, like,
following this one, you know,
white God, and it's messed up.
SHANNON: God, that's
so interesting, you know,
bringing up how race plays
a part in that.
And Ashley and I have talked
about the traditions
of the Black church and how
within those traditions,
there's like this--
a lot of fear
is wrapped up in that.
And there's also joy like,
you know, again to go back
-to that opening scene.
-DANIEL: Right.
SHANNON: What powerful is like
Leti is watching everybody else
basically catch the spirit.
And her head is bowed
and this incredible audio
was playing over.
We're hearing the voice
of Precious Ebony who I love
-is speaking to us.
-DANIEL: Uh-hmm.
SHANNON: So there's also
this like the voice
of a trans Black woman
telling the story of another
trans woman over Leti
witnessing the Holy Ghost
occurring in front of her
but she can't quite get to it
and she doesn't know
how to get to it
partly because she herself
is a ghost, you know,
or a Dracula or, you know,
like all of these things
are happening. Um...
but what was so cool what I was
excited about in the room
was when we decided
that our characters needed
to seek out magic too.
And magic
from Black people, right?
Like Leti's--part of Leti's
response is, "Okay.
These white people have magic.
They're haunting houses.
They're showing up
in my photographs."
Black people got magic too.
-DANIEL: Right.
-SHANNON: You know, she went
to the church and she's not
quite getting it there.
She doesn't go back
to that church to get help.
Um, she seeks out
this Black woman
and that's the woman
who gives her the tools.
All the tools are necessary
and that's kind of what
I got from your story
about the altar.
-Take care of your altar.
-DANIEL: Right.
SHANNON: And it will take care
of you but it's like we need
all the tools,
we need the doctors,
we need this person,
we need the altar,
like everything kind of
coming together.
DANIEL: And I love that moment
that she-- they're both
a little bit like, "Hmm.
Who do we bring into this?"
You know what I mean?
Like, when she takes out
that goat
-on the porch, you know.
-ASHLEY: Sure did.
DANIEL: Like, they're like,
"Ah. This is a lot."
Which is like real,
you know what I mean?
Like if someone cuts
a goat's head off,
like you're gonna have a moment.
I really appreciate it
because we so often see
a lot of these traditions
depicted just as like
straight up demon worship
on so many shows.
-ASHLEY: Uh-hmm.
-DANIEL: Tracing all the way
back not for nothing
until Lovecraft.
-ASHLEY: Uh-hmm.
-DANIEL: You know, like
Lovecraft showed folks doing
diasporic religions in the woods
and like sacrificing children
and doing all kinds
of horrible shit, acting like
that's, you know,
what it is and it's not.
But that's the common,
you know, understanding.
So I love that this episode
was really like--
this bullshit
that he was laying out,
we're gonna show you
what it really is about
and we're gonna use it
against him.
You know, it's like
how do we use it to heal,
how do we use it as a tool
of resistance and survival.
And there's examples
of that and I think of those
as counter-narratives much like,
you know,
this show is a counter-narrative
to Lovecraft's racist
mythology, right? Like I think
we do the same thing
with religion sometimes.
Um, when we look at
Santeria, right?
Like it's--the history of that
tradition is folks
using Catholicism
to mask their practice,
so that they could survive.
And that, you know,
is what made it
into what it became which
is a syncretic and very complex,
you know, combination
of lots of things
and it's rooted
in the African tradition.
And then it changed again
in so many different ways
when it came
to the States, right?
-ASHLEY: Right.
-DANIEL: And so there's
a creativity to that, you know.
And the way that
the religion itself
and the tradition itself changed
and became fluid and all that.
And that's, you know,
what brought us to that moment
where someone's showing up
at the door with a goat
and doing, you know,
this traditional practice
and calling on Oya
and calling on the ancestors
and doing all this
different work,
you know, that's survival.
-ASHLEY: Right.
-DANIEL: You know, I just think
it's like with anything,
like with art,
like with literature, you know,
it's like how do we use it
to heal or how do we use it
as a tool of resistance
and survival.
SHANNON: Yes. And I love that
when we talk about survival,
like you keep using the word
resistance
which is so fucking important
for this show.
So I want you to just talk
a little bit more specifically
about how you personally
see spirituality
as being a form of resistance.
DANIEL: One thing, like,
that really drew me into the--
into-- like Santeria is
something I carry in my blood
and, you know,
I've just always felt deeply.
The moment that I was really
like became a part
of the community was being
out of Bembe, you know,
a ceremony and seeing Black
and brown people
respecting each other so deeply
and like being in community
with each other.
And as a brown person,
that really blew my mind.
And, you know, because there's
so much like I've been talking
about anti-Blackness
in our communities
and ways that we distance
ourselves
and try to get closer
to whiteness, you know.
So for me, I was like,
"Holy shit."
You know, this is a place
where we commune
with spirit together
and a place that's rooted
in God, you know,
and in different forms
of just worship and healing.
There is like, you know,
human shit in that.
And there are ways that even
in that sacred space,
anti-Blackness
is still enacted, you know,
and like sacred things are kept
from the folks that, you know,
need to have them the most,
you know, so that's--
I think it's very much
connected to this conversation
about like loving forms
of literature, like Lovecraft
and also being able
to critique it, you know,
like same for folks
in the church,
same for folks in the synagogue.
Like how do we honor
ourselves and our traditions
and also critique them
when they're fucked up?
That's a religious practice.
That's about balance,
you know.
How do we honor
the writing that we love
and also say this was fucked up,
you know.
And we're gonna
take from it and like,
you know, just like Leti
does with different religions
and different traditions,
she's gonna take what she needs
to survive not even
disrespectfully but just say
like, "We need this right now.
We need to call the ancestors.
We also need God.
We also need
all of these pieces."
And what we come up with
is something brand new
and something absolutely
beautiful and foraged
from our resistance
and our need to survive
-and hopefully from love.
-SHANNON: Woo. Yes.
-ASHLEY: Uh-hmm.
-SHANNON: Daniel.
DANIEL: Power to the people.
ASHLEY: This has been fantastic.
SHANNON: Thank you so much.
Oh, my God.
DANIEL: Thank you all
for having me.
I'm very happy
to have been here.
ASHLEY: Can't wait to talk
to you more about the show--
-DANIEL: Yeah. Oh, yeah.
-ASHLEY: ...as we continue.
DANIEL: Bring me back.
I have a lot to say,
as you know me.
SHANNON: We love it.
We love to see it.
Thank you, Daniel.
DANIEL: All right, y'all.
SHANNON: Bye.
ASHLEY: All right.
It was a ton of fun
-to get to talk with Daniel.
-SHANNON: Oh, my God. Amazing.
ASHLEY: He's so much fun.
He's so smart.
Such a good friend.
Um, but we wanna get back
to Leti
who's not only dealing
with resurrections
of the undead with--
but herself.
She is the resurrection
of the undead.
But we also have this art
of reconnecting
with her spiritual beliefs
in different ways
somehow managing to feel
connected to this larger
conversation about resistance
and about,
you know, sort of,
I guess the right way to say it
is sticking up for yourself.
SHANNON: Right. Right.
Absolutely.
I mean--
so Leti gets this big house
in a very white part of town
and, you know,
we have that title card
at the beginning of the episode
that says, "A group
of 10 Black folks
who moved into
a white neighborhood in 1955
and three went missing
a week later.
Pioneering is dangerous."
I think we talked about this
on the last episode
like we are abolishing
the phrase,
"We are not our ancestors."
We are not using that.
And I say that because I'm like
the very act of buying
a home in this neighborhood
and staking out claim
to a space that has said
that you're not welcome there
is fucking revolutionary
and it is obviously
a form of resistance.
She's the first Black person
in this neighborhood
and that is not a small thing.
We could have done an episode
just about that
without the ghost
and it would have been wild.
-ASHLEY: Oh, yeah.
-SHANNON: But that in
and of itself is such a--
such a moment.
And the fact that also
Leti plans to use the house
to organize for her community.
She's not entirely successful
in the beginning because again,
she's not quite going about it
the right way.
I love that line where Ruby
reminds her later like,
"You moved all of your friends
into the house.
You moved the artist
and the writers."
And that's not the community
necessarily.
-Those are your friends and--
-ASHLEY: Right.
SHANNON: --you have to think
a little bit bigger.
And the reason that
that's really important
and we talked about
this a lot on the show
and I think
it's important today.
Because in a world
with social media,
I do think there's not always
room to grow
especially as an activist.
Um, and it's not that I believe
in cancel culture per se.
But I just like the idea of Leti
being a flawed activist,
somebody who was doing
one thing before
and is now trying
to make the adjustment.
"Okay. I'm gonna buy
this big house
and it's gonna be
for the community.
Wait. My sister pointed out
something really
true which is like
this isn't activism purely,
like I wanted this house
and I wanted to hang out
with all of my friends.
How can I make that adjustment?"
And over the course
of the episode,
she makes that adjustment.
I just feel like
that's important for all of us
in this particular time
during an uprising
that's going to be ongoing.
Give yourself permission
to grow as an activist
in the way that Leti is doing.
There's this small moment
that I just have to bring up
because this also speaks
to resistance
and as we know,
the family is not
telling the truth,
the entire truth to Hippolyta
about what happened to George.
And she's starting to feel it
and it comes up in this episode.
But there's this fucking
great line where she says,
"To Montrose, I know you
and Tic took care of that man.
I don't need to know
the details."
And I just wanna
take a moment
to say like that
is also our show.
-ASHLEY: Uh-hmm.
-SHANNON: We are just casually
throwing it out there
that Hippolyta knows for a fact
they killed the sheriff
who killed her husband.
I just want to acknowledge
that history of our people.
Like if you think
that we didn't bust back.
Sometimes we did.
There's, again, resistance
on so many different levels.
I'm here for all of it
and I wanna thank Hippolyta
for delivering that line
so perfectly.
And then we have this concept
of people over property
which is ongoing
in this country.
ASHLEY: Oh, for sure.
There's this real tension
in this country now
and not just now
but for some time now
where Black death
is often justified
if it's considered a threat
to white property.
We've seen that be defended
by the state over and over.
Again, we've seen men
be acquitted after killing
Black children
because they claim
they thought the Black child
was stealing something
or robbing someone.
Um...
and that is ultimately
considered a reasonable reason
to end a life.
-And that has been true--
-SHANNON: Right.
ASHLEY: --for a long time.
This is a capitalist country,
um, and people's property
are how they maintain
or develop their wealth
and because money
is considered life,
turns out,
it's a life for a life
but money
being considered a life
is only true to some people
um, and that's how
we get where we are
to be perfectly honest.
Um...
they put up a sign
after Leti moves in
to this house.
And I've got to say
really quickly
Leti moving in to this house
brought up some really
-uncomfortable feelings for me.
-SHANNON: Hmm.
ASHLEY: Because I love
old Gothic-looking houses.
-I mean, go figure.
-SHANNON: Right.
-ASHLEY: Right?
-SHANNON: Of course.
ASHLEY: I love that shit.
And there have been so many
times when I've seen houses
when I've seen houses like that,
when I've thought about
buying houses like that,
and I look at the neighborhood
and the demographics of it
and decide that.
And specifically have said
many times
when I made the decision,
-I'm not a pioneer.
-SHANNON: Hmm. Uh-hmm.
ASHLEY: That's what I've said
every time.
I'm not going there
because I'm not a pioneer.
SHANNON: Yeah. I love that
you're saying that too
because we also talked
in the writer's room about like
that question.
There's the other side of it
which is why integrate,
-why pioneer?
-ASHLEY: Right.
SHANNON: Um, I think
there's a line in the episode
if it's not in the episode,
we did talk about it.
But Ruby was like, "You could
have bought a big-ass house
-on the South side."
-ASHLEY: Yeah.
SHANNON:
That's a valid question too.
Why do this?
Why go in there
and put yourself at risk?
And I think the answer is
because we fucking belong here
because we fucking belong
anywhere we want because--
-ASHLEY: Right.
-SHANNON: --we're Americans
whether that feels true
all the time or not,
we can live wherever the fuck
we want, so fuck you.
ASHLEY: And it's clear that
the community does not agree.
-SHANNON: Yeah. Yes.
-ASHLEY: They make it very clear
almost immediately.
Um, that sign
that gets put out.
That get-- that gets put out
that says,
"We are a white community,
undesirables must go."
That was wild--
-SHANNON: Oh, yeah.
-ASHLEY: --to me.
"We are a white community,
undesirables must go."
Like first of all,
we can't even be named.
Second of all, that sign
was mad professional-looking.
-SHANNON: (LAUGHS)
-ASHLEY: Who made that sign?
Like did they just have
those around
in case Black people
moved in or did somebody--
SHANNON: No, like,
somebody made it.
ASHLEY: --go down to the sign
shop and was like--I mean,
that wasn't a hand-painted sign,
was it?
-SHANNON: No. I--
-ASHLEY: Like I mean,
just watching it in the show,
I remember just being like
wow like in my mind, I'm like,
I don't care how much it costs.
Somebody had to spend money
on having this sign made.
And they probably had multiple
signs made that say this.
And it's strange, I think,
sometimes to realize
how deep somebody can get into
an action or a thought process
and do something incredibly
cruel like that.
SHANNON: And that's like
as you were describing the sign,
I'm like, "Yeah. That's true."
All the energy
you put into that sign
and you could have just sat
there and ate your fucking food.
Same thing for all the other
white people, you know,
showing up the bricks
placed over the horns
to blast noise into the home.
That is a real thing
that used to happen.
And Atticus mentioned
it's a tool used--
-it's a form of torture, right?
-ASHLEY: Right.
SHANNON: We're going to torture
you with noise.
We're going to torture you
with excessive heat.
He knows a little bit
about this,
we'll find out more
on that later.
But you have all of these things
happening.
All the things that you expect
to happen in an episode about
a woman moving into
a white neighborhood.
But as I always say,
I'm also very proud
of the fact that
in every episode,
I think there's always a moment
where we highlight Black Joy.
And Black Joy as resistance
as also just like
we're fucking partying and
we're having sex in bathrooms.
Because that's what you do
at a party sometimes.
-ASHLEY: I have.
-SHANNON: So we love the party.
It was-- it was so amazing
and just seeing all those
beautiful people dancing
and eating.
And, you know,
there's a turn at the end.
But what's so great about this
fucking incredible scene
with Leti and the baseball bat.
That too, I don't know
about you, I felt joy.
-Uh, Shirley Caesar.
-ASHLEY: Oh, I felt joy.
SHANNON: Shirley Caesar's
playing in the background
the soundtrack to her busting
the windows out of the car,
-I felt amazing.
-ASHLEY: Oh, it sparked joy
for me absolutely.
And can I just say
that one of the things
that sparked joy for me
in that moment
was that when she grabbed
that bat,
Atticus and these men
grabbed their guns.
SHANNON: Hmm.
ASHLEY: And they went out there
and they just stood
and waited as she busted
these windows.
And they didn't put
those guns down.
-SHANNON: Yup.
-ASHLEY: And they didn't do
or say anything to anybody
until the cops showed up.
-SHANNON: The organization.
-ASHLEY: You know what I mean?
-SHANNON: The organization.
-ASHLEY: The organization of it
in that moment. But also,
I can't remember the last time
I've seen in a film
men gather to protect
a Black woman like that.
SHANNON: Oh.
ASHLEY: I cannot think
of the last time or moment
I've seen a scene
where a Black woman
was protected in the midst
-of her reasonable rage.
-SHANNON: Uh-hmm.
ASHLEY:
I can't think of anything.
So that absolutely
blew me away.
SHANNON: That's a community.
That's a community.
And what, you know,
what Daniel was saying
earlier about like,
"You're supposed to draw
on different communities
and have communities
and sometimes
you'll all come together."
And I do think that
that's a lesson that Leti
is learning like
what is my community,
who are they?
I think she's really starting
to understand like,
"I'm not in this alone.
The more real I am,
the more I can build
with this community."
So I love that scene too
and just fucking community.
And somebody write that essay
about why Ashley
can't remember a scene
where a Black woman
in a moment of rage is supported
by a group of Black men.
And where is that scene
and why aren't we seeing that
and what do we need to rectify?
We'll leave you guys
with some references
and recommendations
just coming off of Episode 3:
"The Holy Ghost."
We have Count of Monte Cristo,
 Dracula,
Thirteen Ghosts,
The Exorcist,
Beloved.
Let's talk a little bit
about Shirley Caesar
and some gospel that people
need to get into, Ashley.
ASHLEY: I love Shirley Caesar
and Dorinda Clark.
SHANNON: Yes.
ASHLEY: The fucking iconic
 Clark Sisters
-movie on Lifetime.
-SHANNON: Yes.
ASHLEY: You're not ready
but you need to watch it.
-SHANNON: Watch it.
-ASHLEY: Because you need
to understand what's going on
around here.
We got a dope
 New York Times article.
"Gods, Monsters, and H.P.
Lovecraft's Uncanny Legacy."
The My House series featuring
Precious Ebony
and many more iconic trans
and queer dancers
which this show actually
introduced me to Precious Ebony.
And that is--
that has been a lovely,
lovely rabbit hole to fall down.
Finally, you know, go check out
One Hundred Years of Weird Fear
by Daniel Jose Older.
And a little extra finally,
he has an amazing YA series
called Shadowshaper that deals
with elements of spirituality
as resistance for young people
in New York City
and it's really, really great.
SHANNON: Yes. We love it.
So that is our show
for this week.
Thank you so much
for listening.
This show is hosted by us.
I'm Shannon Houston.
ASHLEY: And I'm Ashley C. Ford.
This podcast was produced
by HBO
in conjunction with
Pineapple Street Studios.
Our executive producers
are Jenna Weiss-Berman,
Max Linsky, and Bari Finkel.
Agerenesh Ashagre
is our managing producer.
The episode's lead producer
is Jess Jupiter
and our associate producers
are Alexis Moore
and Natalie Brennan.
Our editors are Maddy
Sprung-Keyser and Josh Gwynn.
Noriko Okabe is our engineer.
Original music by composer,
Amanda Jones.
SHANNON: If you like the show
and you have a minute,
you can review and rate
this podcast via Apple Podcast,
Spotify, or anywhere else
you might get your podcast.
It really helps people
find the show.
You can also stream the podcast
on HBO and HBO Max.
We'll be back next week
for Episode 4
which premieres on HBO
and streams on HBO Max
on September 6th
at 9:00 PM Eastern.
ASHLEY: See you then.
(UPBEAT MUSIC PLAYING)
