(gentle music)
- When I was 15, I got pregnant.
I was like, "I think I might be pregnant,"
and we went and we got a pregnancy test.
I went into our bathroom,
and I took the test,
and while I was waiting for it,
I opened up this little box that I had
and I put out a line and I snorted it,
because I was an addict at the time,
and I saw that I was pregnant,
and when he got home,
he told me straight up, "You
need to take care of this,
"or I'm going to do it with a hanger."
And he was totally serious.
- Whoa, okay.
- He was not joking, it was
not like an empty threat.
He was not going to allow this to happen.
- Today I wanna introduce
you to my friend Bb.
She is absolutely one of the most kind
and caring people that
I have in my life today.
In addition to starting a dance company
here in Portland around 2014,
Bb is mother to one of
the sweetest little boys
ever to grace the face of this planet.
One day, we were hanging out,
and the whole subject
of abortion comes up.
And I assumed that we
both shared the same views
since we go to the same
church and everything.
But to my surprise, Bb shared with me
that this wasn't the case.
That even as a person of
faith, Bb is still pro-choice.
And so, of course, I was floored.
How can you be Christian and pro-choiced?
So instead of arguing with her,
I decided to ask her for her story.
This is "i'm Listening."
- So I had to make that choice at 15,
as an addict, (laughs) as just a kid,
totally like, you know?
- Yeah, no, that--
- And do I risk, you know?
- Your life.
- My life,
or do I go to a clinic
and make this choice?
And so I decided to get an abortion,
and I still to this day
do not regret that decision.
That was the right decision.
I don't regret it, however,
I deeply regret that I
had to make that decision.
I hate that I had to make that decision.
It happened on August 23rd,
and every year I remember it.
That is something that
will stay with me forever.
That is my first child.
That is not something that will go away.
And I don't consider it as a fluke,
I do consider it like
that is my first child,
and I made the decision, you know?
And the whole experience of it
was not great. (laughs)
It was pretty awful,
the experience itself.
I was alone, my boyfriend
was playing basketball.
I couldn't tell anyone.
Nobody knew except for
him, and that friend.
I went into the room,
I was just this girl.
They were very cold,
they did the ultrasound.
They wouldn't let me look at the baby.
I didn't get to see it.
And then they just gave
me some medication,
I had to wait in the waiting
room, they took me back,
they did it, it was super painful
and I fell asleep in this
cot and they gave me a cookie
and I had to call my
grandma to pick me up,
and it was awful!
It was awful.
- That sounds terrible.
It was awful, and not saying that
everyone's experience is like that,
but that was my experience,
and it was not a healthy, like,
"Oh, yep, went to the abortion clinic!
♪ Da-da-da ♪
No, it was terrible!
And I was a kid!
I was a kid that had to
choose between my life
or this life that I didn't even know yet.
And so now,
again, I believe I made
the right decision.
If that had happened, if
anything had happened to me,
I wouldn't have the beautiful
son that I have now,
that gift that I have now,
which is Siona.
- True.
- And I truly believe
that God will reunite me with that child,
and I know that now.
I didn't know that then.
But there's lots of other situations,
like when it comes to rape,
when it comes to incest,
when it comes to young girls.
I do believe absolutely
that they should have that choice
because we live in a broken,
fallen world, and it is not...
I, personally, cannot
wrap my head around how
it is fair to force a woman
into one particular choice or another.
And I also don't see God
being angry at me or anyone else
for making a decision like that.
Is his heart broken?
Absolutely.
Is he, like--
- Holding a grudge?
- No, so when, like I
said in the beginning,
anti-abortion, as in,
against birth control,
I feel like that's a
very different situation.
It's very different when you're just like,
"Oop, I got pregnant, I'm
gonna have an abortion.
"Oop, I got pregnant again.
"I'm gonna have an abortion,
oop, I got pregnant."
That's a very different
thing than when you're
considering, like, "Oh, I am a kid,
"and I don't have any
support from my family.
"This is potentially my
life, what is gonna happen?"
Or when you have a situation where
it's your brother's. (laughs)
Or you have gotten raped and
not only do you have to...
I don't know what that experience is like,
but I can empathize with the fact
that if there is a safe choice,
and we live in a broken
world where our God
can cover a multitude of sins,
and we will be reunited in eternity,
where those children will be with him
and also potentially with us,
why is that an anti-,
a not-Christian idea?
- So at this point in the conversation,
I think it's time that I
make a confession to you.
When I first asked Bb to
join me for this episode,
I was really looking forward to poking
and prodding at her position in hopes
that I could convince
her that she was wrong
and she should ultimately end up believing
what I wanted her to believe.
But as I was sitting there,
listening to her story,
I started to realize, well,
maybe not everything
is so black and white,
that maybe in certain circumstances,
there are no right answers.
And so instead of pushing my
agenda further and further,
I felt like the most helpful
thing to do was to ask her
what she thought the ideal
solution would look like.
Let me shift to this question, then.
On your view,
what would be the quote,
unquote right course?
What does the world in which we recognize
the horror it is to have to go
through that type of experience,
we balance the morality and
the value of human life,
and the ending of it early,
but also try to make provision
for some of these unique
circumstances like this,
but not also provide provision
for the careless taking
the abortion medication
like it's an Advil type of situation.
What do you see as a
potential solution being?
I'm looking to you for all
the answers, now.
(both laughing)
'Cause I'm kinda floored on this!
- Well, I don't think there is.
I don't think you can...
'Cause we can say all the things like,
"Okay, what if it was just like rape,
"incest, and young girls," right?
And that's what we're gonna say is,
these are okay things, right?
But then that all comes down
to a value judgment on the doctor
and then it becomes subjective,
and that's not okay,
and then what if, then
there's always room for lying,
and then that opens up the doors,
again, for unsafe abortion,
which I don't think is responsible,
and so--
- Which, by the way,
your story has given
me so much more context
on the concept of an unsafe abortion.
I've always looked at,
when people use language
around unsafe abortion,
like, "Oh, the woman is just careless
"and so she uses an
unsafe method of solving
"her own problem," but--
- Like she drinks a bunch,
or she--
- Whatever it is,
but the context of your boyfriend,
if you can even call him a friend
at that point--
- Yeah, and I stayed with him
for three years after that.
- Oh my goodness.
- Anyways, that's neither here nor there.
(both laughing)
- Yeah, so let's just say that we accept
that there's a certain
amount of suffering and evil.
Wouldn't the pro-life stance,
as far as no abortion
except for extreme, extreme
cases still be a better
solution on the balance
of the world scale?
So in the sense that if
human life has value,
however you define that value,
legislating against abortion
saves more lives than it hurts?
- [Bb] Mm. (laughs)
- Because I would venture to guess,
the number of human beings that have
to go through an experience
similar to yours--
- Is low.
- Much less than the number
of people who are just doing
it out of carelessness.
- Absolutely, I think most
of the people I know that
have gotten abortions
are in their 20s and just
hooked up and are like,
"Boop boop!" (laughs)
You know? Or not, or not.
There are a lot of people
who do seriously consider
and they're just not ready, right?
And that is a reality and I don't wanna
take that away or make that seem
as like everyone who gets
an abortion is careless,
or if you're not young or whatever,
that you don't think about
it, 'cause I know people do,
and it is very serious
for a lot of people.
So I just wanna say that,
but do I think that?
I think what I want to ask you is,
how does bringing life in,
when they are unwanted,
and not only legislating that,
but when there's legislation,
like funding is being cut,
for WIC, for Head Start,
for food stamps, for welfare,
all of those programs, the
funding is being cut for that.
I think a lot of people
that are pro-life are like,
"Well, you can give it up for adoption,"
and how many thousands
of kids don't get adopted every year,
or how many thousands of kids
are in the foster care system that have
not healthy or good experiences?
And again, the start of your
life doesn't determine--
- The end of it.
- The end of it, or you being
happy or healthy or
productive or whatever,
but how do you
see that being more beneficial?
- Yeah, so I think, well,
I don't know what most people would think.
What I think is that much more care
needs to be put onto that second stage
of the pro-life-like argument.
Okay, cool, let's say
you quote, unquote win
the abortion thing, you ought
to have a plan that happens,
so if a young girl or a victim of a rape,
or whatever the case is,
does give their child
up for adoption, and we
don't have a system in place,
to use very Christian
and very coarse language,
the blood of that child is now
on your hands.
- Yeah.
- That's your mistake.
If you are not part of fighting
for change in that respect,
if you are so adamant
about this, I would...
Like, how many children have you adopted?
How many times have you fostered children?
Have you voted in this and that?
Have you allocated some
of your own resources
and space in your own home
to help solve this problem?
And if not, then I just see you
as a talker, you're a hypocrite.
So here's the heart of the question
we were being forced to confront.
What does it mean to be pro-life,
to truly value human life?
If we simplify it down to just mean
allowing someone to be born,
then it makes the argument really easy.
But if we truly value human life,
doesn't it actually mean more than that?
Do we care about the health and dignity
of children born into hard circumstances?
Are we actively helping
them find loving families?
And are we caring for mothers,
or are we simply making them afraid
and insecure about raising a child?
Tough questions!
- Well, and then I think also,
the other part of the conversation
is about the mother themselves right?
So, okay, you're saying
you made this choice,
you got pregnant, now you're gonna
have this child--
- Or were the victim
of a circumstance.
- Right, or whatever, right?
But then most jobs don't have
adequate maternity leave.
And (laughs) so there's that,
and a lot of places don't have
rooms or privacy for pumping,
and daycare is so expensive,
and then women either have
to choose to not work,
but if they're a single
mom, that's not a choice,
and so then, what kind of
support are we giving women?
And there's also not a lot of conversation
or resources for mental health
after giving birth, which,
postpartum depression is so real
and so prevalent, and
we don't talk about it.
And so then, what kind of support
are we giving the woman, right?
And yes, we're talking
about a child, but this
is a life, (chuckles)
this woman's life is a life!
And so, what kind of support and care
and consideration are we giving her?
If the mother doesn't
have the support and care,
we have a finite amount of
resources, within ourselves, so--
- I think you're pointing
out such a huge problem.
And from our perspective
as followers of Jesus,
I would like to say that this is an area
in which the church has failed.
We've championed, to moderate success,
the idea of pro-life and legislating
our beliefs and things along those lines,
when the real call of pure
and undefiled religion,
as the book of James was to describe it,
was to take care of the widows,
to take care of the orphans and those
who are downtrodden or outcast
or whatever the thing is, right?
And so much attention has
been put on legislating
our right position so that the government
would do the thing that
Jesus called us to do.
And so, for me, where I'm wrapping up,
and I guess a lesson that
I'm taking from this is,
it's not enough to just point the finger
or expect the government to
do what I was called to do,
what the church was called to do.
And I think that this is really one
of the calls to live a life of faith,
is to be the change that you can be,
to take ownership for your actions,
and where you have the
ability is to be redemptive
in how you choose to live your life.
The fact is that there will be suffering,
there will be pain, there will be sin,
there will be death on
this side of eternity.
And our job isn't to point the fingers
and to blame people who
are in the middle of that.
Our job is to be the hands and feet
of the God that we claim to believe in,
and I think what we're--
- And to support
and draw.
- Saying in some common ground
here is we would love to see the church do
more of that and do better at that.
- Yeah, rather than, exactly,
saying, "You're a murderer," (laughs)
and here's the things, right?
- 'Cause that's not a very
redemptive strategy!
- And all of that, right?
But saying, "I see you,
"and I see this world,
"and I understand it
and I empathize with it.
"Now let me show you,
let me take your hand
"and show you what the reality
of this choice really is."
- And how, even, you've made a mistake,
and it is this thing that we would define
and use language like killing
and murdering, how even then,
God is bigger than that.
- Yes.
- And able to redeem your
life and your decision,
and we are here to help with that.
We're not casting a blame,
though there could be
blame that could be cast,
but we choose not to cast blame,
because we are people with blame.
We don't have clean hands.
And so rather than point
the finger and ostracize,
let's band together,
let's support each other.
- Yeah!
- The last question that I
would love to throw to you is,
any advice for a young
Bb who's 15 years old,
who maybe is not in this exact situation
but is in a similar one,
and if there's any advice
that you can give them.
And as you're thinking about that,
I just wanted us to pause for a moment
and just really thank you
for showing up in this space.
You shared some things that
blew my mind, no doubt.
But I can't imagine on the
other side of these microphones
how challenging it may have been for you
to trust me with that story,
and then even just to
put your story out there,
I mean, that's--
(Bb sighs)
I can only imagine how hard that was,
and so I just wanna say
thank you for trusting us.
I see you as someone
who has so much love
and life within her,
and it's incredible, it's inspiring,
I get to see how you
interact with your child.
I love how when we're at
church in our little classroom,
he's there running around,
(Bb laughing)
and I just see how much joy he brings you,
I see how much being a
mother matters to you,
even to the extent that you're halting
your career for the
sake of this young one,
and I just wanna say, it's beautiful,
and as much as you do
that, I see Jesus in you,
and I think it's just amazing,
and the wisdom and the care and the tact
that you bring to this conversation,
though even, I think, at the
end of this conversation,
we still see it differently--
- Yeah. (laughs)
Which is okay!
- Yeah.
I appreciate it and I understand
you better because of it,
and I'm just so grateful
that you've taken the time
to share your story with us.
- Thank you, you know, God is good.
It can be really hard, especially for me.
I have a hard time opening
up about certain things,
but it's all about his
glory and his redemption
and where he's brought me
and where I've come from,
and if I'm not willing
to share that story,
then I'm not letting his
light shine through me.
He has changed my life.
And not just my life but my person.
And if I'm not willing to share that,
then I'm dimming what he's
done for me and through me.
So thank you for allowing
me to have this platform
and let God just shine in what he's done.
Advice for a young Bb, oh, man,
I don't know if I could give any advice
that would actually, (laughs)
that she would actually listen to.
But for not just young women,
but any woman, the Bible says
that you are worth more than rubies,
so don't allow someone to pay pennies.
- So I know that it might
seem reckless or ignorant,
but my strategy going
into this conversation
was actually to do zero research
on the whole abortion issue.
The hope was to sit there
with as neutral of an agenda as possible,
and simply listen and
learn, instead of debate.
And in hindsight, I'm really,
really glad that I did this,
even if it did mean that
there were several times
in the conversation where
I didn't always know
what to say or have the right answer.
Having had some time
to reflect on our chat,
I think that the place that Bb and I
would end up agreeing the most on was
this idea that more needs to be done,
whether it's more for
women who might feel forced
into a no-win situation, or
more for the unborn babies,
who literally don't even
have a voice in this matter.
And on that note, we're in
really, really good company.
Since having shot this episode,
I've done some research on
the whole adoption, slash,
support for single women
part of the equation
and found that much to my surprise,
a lot is being done by the church,
both for women and for babies.
For one example, adoption.org even goes
as far as stating that
Christians, and more specifically,
older, straight white Christians,
are more than twice as
likely to adopt children
as the general population!
In fact, many would say that
perhaps in direct response
to Jesus's teaching on the importance
of valuing all human life,
research indicates that upwards of 65%
of non-kin foster parents actually attend
a religious service every single week.
The truth is that many,
many, many people of faith
are sacrificially giving to be the change
that they're wanting to see in the world.
Now of course, this obviously isn't meant
to say that only Christians care,
as there are an incredibly large number
of single parents, gay
couples, poor families,
and yes, even non-religious families,
who are adopting or fostering as well.
And my point is this,
that no matter who you
are or what you believe,
if you're taking action on
this, this is what matters.
So as much as I know that it's
likely gonna be impossible
for the comments section not to devolve
into arguments about
morality or legislation,
I'd like to encourage you to chew
on the most important
question that I personally
came away from this conversation.
The question is this, what can I do
to make the world a better
place for women and for babies?
Next time on "i'm Listening,"
I sit down with my barber,
a man who was sent to prison
for selling meth to the feds.
- You're expected to do whatever
is necessary to uphold your obligation,
whether it be violence or doing things,
stashing some shanks or
whatnot, you know what I mean?
You just have to wear that mask,
which makes it really hard.
Because now I don't want
this, I don't want this.
This is not who I am.
- Hey, before you go, how would you like
to see more from "i'm Listening"?
Here's what I mean, for every
episode that we produce,
we oftentimes have three, four,
sometimes five times the
amount of footage available,
and we wanna give it all to you.
There's tons of behind-the-scenes footage
and entire episodes that we don't actually
end up putting out there in public,
and all of it is available to
our friends over at Patreon.
If you've never heard of Patreon,
it's a platform where viewers
and creators come together
to make content like this happen.
We've got shows coming up
on things like marijuana,
homosexuality, and even
Paganism coming up,
and none of it would be
possible without your support.
So if you'd like to join
this group of people and help
make shows like this
possible as well as getting
access to tons of additional content,
you can do so at patreon.com/jkhoe.
That's patreon.com slash J-K-H-O-E.
Since you're still listening,
I thought I'd throw in
a little bonus for you.
At the end of my conversation with Bb,
I invited her to share a
word of blessing over anyone
who might be facing abortion
in a more personal way.
Here's what she had to say.
- Lord, (sighs) I just wanna lift
up the women and men that
might be listening to this.
Lord, I pray that
if there is anyone
that is seeking wisdom,
I know that they will find it in you.
God, I want them to know
that you are bigger,
not just than their choices,
but bigger than this world,
bigger than circumstance,
bigger than trauma,
bigger than pain, bigger than fear.
I pray that they know that this world,
this right now, it is a blip,
and it will be gone in
the blink of an eye,
and eternity is coming
and that is what's real,
that heaven is tangible,
that it is possible right
now in their hearts,
and also that there is an ending in sight
for whatever
they might be experiencing.
And what they see happening in the world,
that is not your desire or your will.
It is not from you and it is not of you.
Lord, that there is an
enemy that has done this,
an enemy that has caused this,
an enemy that desires this.
And that they know your character,
which is rich in love
and freedom and peace,
and that their hearts can be redeemed,
their bodies can be redeemed.
In Jesus' name, amen.
- [Justin] Amen.
