A professor, sentenced to life for so-called
“separatism”
Now, his daughter tells the real story of
what happened.
Welcome back to China Uncensored.
I’m Chris Chappell.
For decades, the Chinese Communist Party
has demanded that all ethnic groups in China
assimilate to Han Chinese culture—
or more specifically,
the modern Chinese Communist Party culture
that rejects religion, tradition, and regional
languages.
That’s what’s happening to the roughly
10 million Uighur people
from China’s Xinjiang Autonomous Region.
Among them is professor Ilham Tohti.
For years he was an economics professor in
Beijing.
He also ran a website that sought to bridge
the cultural divide
between the Uighur people and Han Chinese
people.
For that, he was arrested,
and he’s now serving life in prison on charges
of inciting separatism—
even though he never advocated for separatism.
If you think that’s crazy,
wait till you hear what happened to his daughter.
Shelley Zhang sat down with his daughter,
Jewher Ilham,
who fled China and now lives in the US.
Thank you for joining us, Jewher.
It's a pleasure.
So can you tell me about the last time you
saw your father?
The last time I saw my father in person was
2013,
February 2nd at the Beijing international
airport.
I was accompanying my father to Indiana.
My father was invited by Indiana university
as a visiting scholar
and I was just a freshman college student
and was my winter break.
My purpose for coming here was to just stay
for a month,
help my father settle down, maybe cook for
him
and then travel with him.
You weren't trying to stay here, you just
weren't going to-
I wasn't planning to stay here,
I just packed my suitcase for two weeks clothes
and I was planning to buy rest of the clothes
in the US
but at the airport my father was stopped.
We were actually stopped at the passport scanning
process.
That was the last step.
If my dad's passport was scanned successfully,
he would just get on the airplane
and we could have left the country together,
but he was stopped and taken away by four
to six policemen,
security men at the airport.
I can't remember exactly because I was really
nervous
and shocked and didn't know what was going
on,
what I should do.
We were taken to a small room together
and we waited for hours and hours waiting
for someone
who is higher level to give the staff order
to let us leave.
But there was one staff and came in and said,
your father cannot go.
You can.
Did they say why?
They never gave us a good reason.
My father kept asking them, we have legal
status in China,
we have every document ready,
we have the invitation letter, we have visas.
Why aren't we allowed to leave the country?
I've never done anything illegal.
Why am I not allowed to leave?
But the staff just told him, if you are allowed
to go,
you would have gone by now.
Just wait, be patient.
And they weren't going to detain you from
leaving?
Yes, they...
In the beginning they didn't
even know I was my father's daughter and they
asked,
who are you?
I said, I am his daughter.
Where are you taking my father?
They said, Oh, you're his daughter,
then you follow us.
So I was taken away together.
They asked me if I wanted to go.
At that time, I did not want to leave the
country at all.
My only purpose for coming to US was to accompany
my father.
If my father was not going to make it to the
US
what's the point of me leaving?
So I refused.
I said no.
I actually said no at least five times.
They asked me five times, you want to go or
not?
Your plane is leaving.
Don't say that.
We are the ones who didn't allow you to leave.
And I said, of course I'm not leaving.
Why do you even ask?
For me it was an obvious question,
obvious answer, but my father looked at me
and said,
I think you should go.
Wow.
I started tearing up.
Why?
Why and you abandoning me,
why are you trying to let me append you?
And he said, look around you.
This country is treating you like this way.
Do you still want to stay here?
I was just 18, I was a teenager
and I went to boarding school
and I lived in a bubble for my entire life.
For me, those kinds of things would happen
at the airport
that just basically didn't make sense in my
brain at all.
You weren't expecting anything like this?
Yes.
My dad kept saying,
Oh, we might be tailed by some Chinese government
officials.
I used to think my dad was just being paranoid,
suspicious all the time,
suspecting people all the time and when he
says stuff on them,
Oh yeah, of course.
Of course.
You know, annoying teenage kid, teenager.
At that moment, everything started making
sense
and then I knew my father was never lying
and all his questions,
his concerns were actually true.
I felt really ashamed
for at least a few years.
I felt ashamed for not being there for my
father,
not supporting him enough at that time.
But your father, was he trying to shield you
from what was happening to him?
Did you know that he was being surveilled
and all this stuff?
Whenever my father took me to shopping or
let's say going somewhere,
when we drive, my dad always look at the front
mirror and said,
okay, we're being tailed again.
And I used to say, do you think this is an
action movie or what?
Dad, you're not that important.
Nobody's going to follow you.
I used to say jokes to my dad like this way
and my dad just didn't say a word.
Sometimes...
I went to boarding school in high school
and when I got back home I found an empty
apartment,
actually many times.
I never really questioned the reason.
I even for a while actually thought my father
left me alone
and went to travel by himself.
And even though my boarding school was very
close to my home in China,
but my father insisted in sending me to boarding
school.
He said, Oh, your brothers are too young.
They might bother your studies.
And then-
And high school is a very important time and-
Yes.
Yes.
So I also, I couldn't wait to leave home for
a few years.
I wanted to stay with my peers, with my friends
at school.
I was so excited for it and I was too excited
that
I forgot there's something wrong behind it,
or I just didn't want to pay attention to
it.
I chose to ignore it.
I don't think you should blame yourself too
much
because I think your father probably wanted
to keep that from you.
Right.
Yes, but I just thought if I was more supportive
and if I didn't argue with my dad so much,
if I didn't just blame him so much,
he would have less stuff on his shoulder.
He could have felt more relaxed.
And then he already had enough on his plate,
but he had to worry about me.
I complain about him always spending time
in front of his computers,
always spending time with strangers,
always spending time with journalists.
And he never spent time with me.
Do you what he chose to do?
So I kept complaining that he only focused
on his computer.
He actually moved his computer to my bedroom,
so he would type and post articles in my room
and he forgets about time.
We still don't talk.
He's in my room.
I'm on my bed doing my homework.
He's typing in front of the camera.
We don't talk for hours and hours and then
it's his way of,
okay, I am spending time with you.
I'm here.
Yes, yes.
He tried to find a solution.
It didn't work quite well,
but he was trying to be a good father.
What was your dad doing on the computer all
the time?
He created a website called Uighur biz.
In China, social media platforms
like Facebook, Twitter, Instagram
they're banned and search engines like Google
also it's banned.
And the Chinese media is obviously
censored by the Chinese government.
So there weren't enough information left
for the Chinese citizens to explore,
and not many people knew the truth
or get to have access to all this information.
My father believed all the misunderstanding
is coming from not having enough information,
knowledge.
Misunderstand means you didn't understand
it well,
that means you didn't get the correct information.
And if you don't have enough information,
how are you going to get the correct information?
And my father wanted to provide this platform
for people to create understanding,
gain an understanding between each other.
So is this specifically for Uighurs or...?
Not only Uighurs actually it was written
in many other languages as well.
They had different,
in English, Chinese, I think there was Tibetan
as well.
I'm not quite sure.
It was very long time ago and I know it was
just a teenager.
Anyone could post on it.
Han Chinese could post on it,
Uighurs could post on it.
Anyone as long as they wish to do so.
They could write articles, comment, like,
they even can have their own forum inside
the website
and post pictures-
Like a platform,
like a news hub,
all these things.
Yes and you could share anything.
And Xinjiang is so far away from mainland
China,
people don't get to know what is happening
with her
since Chinese government is not planning
to share information of what is going on with
there.
And people in Xinjiang,
how they are treated was directly caused by
the Chinese government
and they're getting those negative things.
For them, their stereotypes are,
they have made stereotypes for a Han Chinese.
And the Han Chinese in mainland China,
they have these stereotypes off Uighurs
that were given by Chinese government
so they don't have enough knowledge of each
other.
And if you have not enough knowledge of each
other,
you always think the other side is an evil
other side.
And my father was trying to prevent that from
happening.
My father was trying to create a bridge between
Han Chinese and Uighurs,
and other ethnic minorities.
And you know how bridges, it's connected.
If you're connected, you have less problems.
It's all about communication, right?
So that was your dad's website.
That was what he was working on?
Yes, and he spent hours, days, nights just
to post things, manage the articles.
And with the time pass Chinese government
realized
this website had gained so much attention
from not only inside China but also overseas.
My father researches the data he had collected
for the past few years during his researches.
Also those researches are not the information...
The Chinese government would want the overseas
people to just know-
He was an economist right?
Your father?
Yes, he was an economist,
but he had degrees in different,
he studied in different fields.
So your father was posting dangerous information
online
from the perspective of the Chinese government.
Dangerous as the exact population of Uighurs,
or what's their perspective of certain policies,
dangerous information as this.
I guess in China's government's perspective,
my father was trying to brainwash everyone
that Uighurs
are a peaceful minority in China.
What a terrible thing.
Yes.
And I guess my father was trying to brainwash
people
that we need to make a good relationship with
each other.
This is the man that the Chinese government
imprisoned for being a separatist.
Yes.
And he's saying we need to get along.
And my father never mentioned a word about
separating the country and he was accused
for being a separatist.
He had never mentioned a word about separating
the country.
I'll have to state that 10 times.
He had never mentioned that.
Let me take you back to,
so kind of grew up in this environment.
Your dad was doing this and you kind of knew
but not really knew what he was doing
and then suddenly in the Beijing airport,
there's this wake up call.
And your father is telling you to leave.
Did you understand that he meant leave for
America
and don't come back?
I think none of us knew,
at that time what is the next step.
I don't know if he was saying it to make me
go at that point
or he was actually thinking that way.
So he said, okay, just go at least and if
you don't like it,
come back after a month.
That's what he said.
He said, go check it out if you don't like
it, come back then.
That's what my dad said.
Then I kind of, okay,
maybe if I go and come back everything will
be fine.
But it wasn't like that.
When I arrived in the US I couldn't even reach
my father
for almost three days.
After three days he was released, so according
to my father,
he was arrested for more than 48 hours at
the airport
and he was beaten and questioned.
He said, no matter what I say in the future,
no matter what I tell you,
if I say come back, I don't mean it.
Stay there.
Oh my God, yeah.
I would rather you sweep the street in the
US
then you coming back here.
How did you feel when you heard that?
I just cried.
I couldn't say a word.
I just cried.
For me, I loved my school.
I loved my friends.
I loved my classmates.
I loved everything that I had when...
I just started my freshman year and everything
was fresh,
brand new to me and I got along with my teammates
and my dance clubs and everything was going
so well.
And I just couldn't accept the fact
that I have to throw that entire life away
and I didn't speak English.
What am I going to do in the US?
So you didn't speak English,
you were by yourself in America.
Yeah, and I had no money.
I didn't know anybody.
For me, what am I going to do here?
What do you want me to do here?
Are you kidding me?
It appeared to me as something ridiculous.
And even though now I think back,
I still think it was ridiculous.
But that's probably the best decision
my father had ever made for me.
And I am so glad I listened to him,
I listened to his advice at that time.
So you managed to stay in the US?
You started going to school here?
Yeah, so I was very lucky enough, so our flight,
my flight was supposed to bring me and my
father,
the seat next to me was empty for the entire
14 hours.
I landed in Chicago because there was no direct
flight to Indianapolis.
So I landed in Chicago, I spoke no English.
I only knew a few words.
They asked me why your visa is J2 where's
the J1?
I said, my father cut, cut, gone.
And that's what I did.
I didn't know how to say shackled.
The staff at the Chicago airport apparently
thought
I was suspicious and said, you follow me.
So I was taken to another room, a small room,
just like the one we were locked up in China.
I was taken to the one in Chicago.
I waited there for hours and hours.
So more than 30 hours, no sleep, no food,
no water.
So I waited there and people started talking
to me.
I had no idea what they were saying
and they didn't have a Chinese translator
for me.
And one person, I guess she lost her patience,
and she said, you go back to China.
That I understood.
And I understood and I didn't know what to
do.
And she did this.
Do you have anyone to call?
And then I realized before I left,
I had a name card in my pocket.
I took it out.
I was so lucky.
It was the person who invited me and my father
to Indiana university.
It was his name card, [Elliot Burley]
He happened to work in the government before
and he called the government and they accepted
me
and allowed me to get into the country,
so that's how I'm here.
Without him I wouldn't be the person who I
am today.
Elliot helped me a lot and he took me under
his wing.
He took care of me, treated me like his own
daughter.
He taught me English, he was my best friend.
Best teacher, like a father, an uncle,
and he only met my father once before this
happened
and he sacrificed so much.
He passed away two years ago.
It was heart broken and I thought my world
was collapsing.
I was like, my own father is locked up in
a prison
and charged for sentence to life
and my father in the US just passed away.
I didn't know what to do.
Yeah, like bad things come one after another.
It was very difficult for a while.
I'm sorry.
Yeah.
But I'm pretty sure both of them.
My father who's in prison,
I'm sure he's praying for me and he's watching
over me
and I'm sure Elliot is also doing that too.
Can you contact your father at all since he
got
a sentence of life in prison in 2014?
After he was sentenced,
I was able to write a letter and I took a
picture of it
and I sent it to his lawyer.
He read it for my father and my father said,
tell her, let her study well.
That's the only thing he said.
That's the most parent thing you could say.
Yes, and that's always what he cared the most.
He said let her study well and take care of
her health,
and that was the last and only message I have
ever sent to my dad.
That was 2014 and after that I was not able
to come talk with him.
And 2017 was the last time my family members
who are in China,
their last time of having contact with my
father.
According to the Chinese constitutional law,
all political prisoners are supposed to be
allowed
to be visited by their family members every
month.
Before my family, it was every three month.
And since 2017 that right had been [inaudible].
That's around the same time that they started
really ramping up these concentration camps
on these days, right?
Yes.
Is your father in Xinjiang?
Do you know where he is imprisoned?
According to my last knowledge,
he was at Urumqi first prison,
but we don't know if he had been transferred
to another prison room or another prison
or to a concentration camp, I don't know anything.
And I really wish the Chinese government could
release a video or image,
or just simply a personal written letter from
my father
so I can prove that he's actually alive.
So tell me a little bit about the advocacy
work
that you're doing now for your father and
for Uighurs?
I understand you spoke at the UN?
Yes.
I was lucky enough to be invited
to a UN general assembly this past September.
I have been trying to do anything that could
possibly
help my father and my community.
I don't know if it's helping,
I didn't know if anything would help.
I just don't want to regret, and I don't want
to,
one day when I got older and I cannot face
my children
or cannot face my families and say, sorry,
I didn't do anything at that time,
so I'm just trying to do anything I can.
I don't know.
We try and we'll work,
but anything possible I will do it.
What do you think about what the US government
is doing?
They just passed the Uighur act.
It's a big achievement for the Uighurs
compared to two years ago we had nothing.
No attention, no acknowledge, people had no
idea who the Uighurs were.
Now house passed the bill,
we'll still need to go a Senate again
and then send to the president's desk,
but it's already a big achievement
and I do hope other countries can also join
the cause because one...
Of course the US is doing great and they have
been doing a lot of work,
but one country's work is not enough
and we need more people to join the cause
and that's the only way to be able to make
a change.
I understood you met President Trump?
Yes.
“How long has your father been gone?”
“He has been in jail for five years,
and we don’t know how long he will still
be in there.”
“Do you have any communication with him?”
“I haven’t heard about him since 2017,
because that’s when the concentration camps
started.”
And there was also...
Just a few days before the oval office event,
it was the religious freedom ministerial event
also,
they were a few hundred government leaders
were invited and involved for their religious
freedom event.
“The Chinese government targets religion
to ensure that people of faith do not answer
to any greater power than the Chinese Communist
Party.”
So they seem to really be focusing on the
issue
of religious freedom in China and the Uighurs.
Yes, but of course it is directly connected
to religious freedom,
but I also want to state that it is not only
about their religion,
what is happening to the Uighurs is not completely
about the religion.
Actually I would say Chinese government
is actually using our religion to get away
from what they're doing to us.
The Islamophobia is going on around the world,
around the globe and when China is labeling
us,
when they talk about us,
they always label us with Islamic extremist.
But first of all,
Uighurs are Turkish minority groups
and we share the same language, same religion.
Majority of us, we believe in Islam,
but Uighurs are just as diverse as Americans.
And so I would say this is not about religion.
Chinese government is using religion
to get away from what they're treating us.
So to just kind of hide,
as a justification is what you're saying.
Yes, yes.
And it's more about identity than religion
I would say.
It's because of we are Uighurs,
it's not because we're Muslims.
It's because you're a separate ethnic group
and you have your own-
Yes we have different language,
different culture, different writing systems.
Even food is different.
How we look is different I think,
and of course our region is full of geopolitical
value.
So it could all could be the the point.
For an ordinary American who's looking,
watching this and their interest in
helping the situation with the Uighurs.
What can they do?
There are so many things.
They can be involved.
The Uighurs are still hoping the bill can
pass the Senate.
Well it passed the Senate,
but it's a different bill the house had signed,
there were some adjustments added so they
need to repass it.
And it would be great if everyone can call...
You don't even have to be an American citizen
you can call the city or the States you are
living.
Call your representatives.
Let them sign the bill as soon as possible
so it can be delivered to the president's
desk.
It might sound it's a little step but it could
help,
it could be a major help for Uighurs.
It could probably save someone's life.
Also, another thing is scholars could sign
statements
and they could write to red cross the organization
and also they could donate to different projects
that are supporting the Uighur cause.
For example, I've been working on a documentary
film over a year
and I have just today I have just released
a fundraising video.
We are wrapping up the film and we still need
some money
to be able to wrap up the film and it would
be great
if we can have more people join the cause
and to be involved.
So you're doing a go fund me for the documentary
you're working on?
Yes.
Yes.
The film's name is Static and Noise.
It will be mainly covering China's treatment
to the Uighurs in China
and actually not only about Uighurs.
It will be covering the other Christian Han
Chinese groups,
how they have been oppressed by the Chinese
government.
So it's not only about one small issue it's
about the entire issue
that is happening in China.
And also another thing I would want to state,
I don't hate China.
I don't hate Chinese people.
Actually a few of my best friends are actually
Chinese.
But I do against the Chinese government's
policy towards certain groups,
like the Uighurs,
Like the Christian minorities in China,
the Han Chinese group,
the people who are suppressed by the Chinese
government.
I do against that.
A lot of people would, how can I say it?
When they hear that I'm being an activist
or some Uighur person is being an activist
to help with the Uighur cause.
They think, Oh, this person is trying to do
things against China.
But we should separate politics.
This is about humanity.
It is a humanitarian issue and it is not about
politics.
It's not about religion.
It is about humanity and everyone should be
involved.
It doesn't matter if I'm Uighur,
if I'm Chinese, if I'm American,
if I'm from any other country,
from any other ethnicity or any other religion
group.
This is not about one person anymore.
This is about the entire...
Us.
Yeah.
Well, thank you so much for joining us today.
Thank you so much.
