Marshall: Who made that?
Did you make that?
Stan: No.
I got it as a gift.
Marshall: Do we know who the artist is?
Stan: Bob Ross.
Marshall: I mean, the one who did it.
Stan: No.
I don't know.
Marshall: The unsung artist.
Everything is about Bob Ross and nothing is
about the person who did it.
Stan: No. Because the label even says Bob Ross on it.
Marshall: Oh!
So it's an uncredited artist.
Stan: It's made by Kidrobot.
Marshall: Oh, Kidrobot.
Stan: But it doesn't give an individual credit.
It only gives...
Marshall: No.
So I think it's somebody who is doing it for
wages.
Even the name Kidrobot implies that they hire
children and they have robots doing the work.
Stan: No.
I think - are they a YouTube channel?
Charlie: I'm not sure but their website
has a line of plushies called Phunny.
And it's PH instead of F.
Marshall: PH like pH balance?
Charlie: [chuckle] No.
Stan: No.
Like PH is a F. F-f-f, Phunny.
Marshall: Oh, funny with a PH.
Stan: Instead of using an F you use a PH.
[laughter] You think that was funny.
Marshall: I like it.
Stan: You like it.
Marshall: So clever.
Stan: Like when you call someone fat, you
can be like not fat like P-H-A-T.
Marshall: And that means cool?
Stan: Yeah.
Charlie: You can be so skinny and yet so
phat. [chuckle]
Marshall: Gosh!
I learned from you.
How are we?
Stan: I can answer half of that question.
Marshall: How are you?
Stan: I'm great.
How are you?
Marshall: I'm glad to be here.
Stan: That's good.
Marshall: We're ready to go?
Stan: I think so.
I think we're going.
Marshall: Alright, let's go.
[intro music]
What are we going to do today?
Stan: Voicemails.
Another voicemail episode.
Marshall: Why not?
Stan: Yeah.
Marshall: Yeah.
Stan: It was fun.
Marshall: Should we just start?
Stan: Sure.
Marshall: Let's do it.
Stan: What about the people that forgot your
name?
Marshall: Oh, I'm Marshall Vandruff.
I help creative people maximize their creativity.
Stan: Oh, wow!
That's a good one.
You just come up with that?
Marshall: Yeah.
Stan: Damn.
Marshall: How about you?
Who are you?
Stan: I'm Stan.
I help Marshall.
Marshall: Ah, no.
There's more to it than - there's more to
Stan than helping Marshall.
Go ahead.
Stan: I run Proko.
Marshall: You do the Proko.
Stan: I do the Proko.
Marshall: Yeah.
Stan: Sounds like a dance move.
Marshall: Yeah.
Charlie: I do the Proko.
Stan: Can you show us the Proko?
Marshall: You should be the one to do that.
I'm not responsible for inventing the Proko.
I could.
Stan: I know.
I guess I introduced myself, I do the Proko.
Marshall: We can have a separate session where
I'll do some Proko moves and we'll assess
them put them into AI see whether they pass
the test.
Stan: Everything is AI now, huh?
Marshall: Yeah.
It made a big impression on me.
Stan: It did?
Marshall: It did, yeah.
Stan: You've been thinking about it?
Marshall: I've been thinking about it ever
since we did that episode on AI.
Stan: What have you been thinking?
Marshall: I've been thinking about the fact
that critique on technical things will be
a thing of the past.
I do think that that's going to be the way
we do it.
We let machines do a lot of our work.
Here's a good example, when drum machines
came in where they could synthesize the sound
of a drum, they could do it better than imitating
other instruments.
It was harder to imitate a cello, really hard
to imitate a human voice.
But you could do a drum pretty well fairly
early on.
And drummers did lose work because drum machines
replaced a good deal of it.
Stan: What's a drum machine?
Like it's a computer generated sound?
Marshall: A drum machine is a musician who
can now play drums and do incredible drumming
that would be technically amazingly demanding
with a physical drum set.
But you can go in there and program it all
so that it will play it. Do it.
Stan: So it still plays the drum.
It still hits.
Marshall: No.
It does not physically hit a drum.
It's synthetic.
Stan: No. It's an digital sound.
Marshall: Digital sound correct.
Stan: Okay.
Marshall: But that was the first thing that
could imitate.
You had synthesizer sounds in the '60s and
'70s, but you did not have really the imitation
of an instrument that sounded convincing.
And drums were the first ones that they sampled
well enough to make it work.
Stan: Oh, cool.
Marshall: Okay.
Well, the point is, it did put a lot of drummers
out of business.
Stan: Yeah.
Marshall: A lot of studio drummers were just
not in demand because anybody can do this
on their computer.
But it did not get rid of drumming altogether.
In fact, I think it was in the 1980s there
was a book called Megatrends by John Naisbitt
and he talked about the high-tech high-touch
phenomenon.
Stan: Okay.
Marshall: This means that in I think it was
a town in Texas or something where people
bought personal computers.
There was a surge of personal computers.
And then they found out that in the following
weeks, the sales of gardening equipment went
up as well.
Because when you sit in front of something
so synthetic, you start to get an impulse
to do something that's more organic.
Stan: Oh, I don't get that.
[chuckle]
Marshall: You don't have that experience?
Stan: No.
I never went to buy gardening equipment after
sitting in front of a computer.
Marshall: Oh, no.
I remember the first time in 1994 when I bought
one of those big 20-inch CRT monitors and
sat in front of it for so many hours, I have
already told this story.
Stan: That probably has a different effect
than your brain though than the current monitors.
Marshall: The current monitors are way easier
on the eye.
Stan: Yeah.
Marshall: Yeah.
But they made me want to roll around in dirt.
Stan: Okay.
Nice.
Marshall: Yeah.
Now back to the-
Stan: Yeah. Yeah. Back to AI.
Marshall: Yeah. Back to the AI thing.
I don't think that when we are able to say
that all of your technical issues will be
taken care of by this computer teacher, that
we will not give any kind of technical feedback.
But I do think that that will be allotted
to somebody who can do it much better than
a human can do it.
That's been on my mind a lot.
I've been thinking how we get prepared for
this.
And that the shift is going to be more toward
prompting creativity.
Stan: Any interesting use cases you come up
with?
Just briefly?
Marshall: Interesting use?
Stan: Use cases like the technical things
that AI will be able to critique.
Marshall: Well, the things that we mentioned
which are persepective.
Stan: Right. Anything else?
Marshall: No. Perspective, rendering and anatomy are the three that I've taught for so long.
Stan: Yeah.
So, those are the ones you have been thinking
of.
Marshall: Yeah, those are the ones to let
go of.
But no, I have not really been giving any
insight into how it will make a difference.
Stan: Just trying to squeeze ideas out of
you Marshall.
Marshall: Yeah, yeah I am hoping that something
gets squeezed out rather than just being...
Stan: Trying to milk you.
Marshall: Yeah.
Not working that well.
Stan: No. It's not.
Marshall: No. Well.
Stan: Picked the wrong thing to milk.
Marshall: I think what we need is voicemails.
Stan: Charlie give us a voicemail.
Voicemail 1: Hey Proko.
This is Silver and I'm calling from Norway.
Loving the podcast it is great sort of background
chatter while sketching.
My question is, how do you guys know when
a painting is finished?
How do you know when to stop rendering to
not sort of draw all the life out of it.
That's it.
Thank you.
Marshall: I don't know and I've had a lifelong
reputation of continuing to work on it and
continuing to work on it and continuing to
work on it until I worked it in to...
Stan: Until you work the life out of it.
Marshall: Yeah, I work the life out of it.
Yeah, I've done that more times than I can
count.
Stan: Well, I know it's done when I'm done
with it.
Marshall: So, is there someone that you have
in your studio who says...
Stan: No.
When I'm done.
Marshall: When you're to - it's you're taking
responsibility.
Stan: Yeah.
Marshall: Good answer.
Stan: I'm making a decision to be done.
Charlie: Just walk away.
Stan: Yeah.
I mean, it's like okay, well, then how do
you make that decision?
Marshall: That's what we're looking for.
Stan: Yeah.
I guess - okay, so when I approach a drawing
or a painting I usually have a plan.
I'm not just like feeling it out.
And when that plan is executed, I'm done.
Marshall: This means that you have a vision
of what it should look like.
Stan: Yeah.
So usually, I'll cover the whole thing and
I'll be be like well it could be done.
I've finished shading all the areas that should
be shaded but I might not be happy with some parts.
So, I'll take another pass through it, fix
some things and then I'll get to the point
where I'm like, "Okay. Cool. Yeah."
There's obviously things I could improve but
in order to really improve maybe this knee,
I should probably just start over and just
do another knee.
So, I'm done with this one.
You know what I mean?
Marshall: I do know what you mean.
It is an emotional call.
And some people, I've had that example, I
could do more, I could do more, I could do
more and there is not that critical assessment
to say "but it wouldn't make it better to do more".
And that's a call.
Stan: Yeah.
Marshall: There's a saying about watercolor
is that, it takes two people to do a watercolor.
One is for the watercolors to do the watercolor
and the other is for the person to be right
behind them and hit them over the head hard
when the watercolor is done.
Because one of the most common things is to
keep working it and not let the water be itself.
Stan: Yeah.
Marshall: Well, there's another thing, I remember
saying to William Stout, 20-some years ago,
why I wasn't a painter is that when I paint
I always overwork it.
And he immediately jumped on that and said,
"What do you mean overwork it?"
And he explained that there are stages of
a painting that it needs to go through the
next one or it doesn't need to go through
the next one.
But if it's going to go through the next one,
there are distinct levels of how much it needs
to be worked.
Stan: Yeah.
Marshall: And that you could work on a painting
for a hundred and fifty hours and make it
better and better.
But it has to do with the wisdom of whether
it needs it or not.
Stan: Or whether you want to take it to that
next level.
Or you're fine with it.
It does what you wanted it to do at this stage
already and you don't need to spend another
hundred hours on it.
Marshall: I've spent over a hundred hours
on pieces that I don't regret.
That they wouldn't have been what they were
if I had not put that much into it.
Stan: Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
Marshall: This may be the the kind of thing
where you have someone else who says, "That's enough.
It's not going to get better if you keep working
on it."
Stan: Yeah.
There's another part too is, I was mentioning
how, you know, there comes a point where I
could say, "I could improve this part of the
drawing but it would probably be better just
to do that over again because some things
like the line quality.
It's like okay, I'll just going to have to
erase these lines to make a better line.
Like I'm just not happy with the dexterity.
Maybe my hand was tight and I just wasn't
loose with my strokes and they look kind of
uncertain.
Marshall: Yes.
Stan: And that's when you should just redo
it.
And that reminds me of Berni Wrightson.
Or was it you that told me about the book
that they released with his failed inking?
Marshall: Yeah. A Look Back. Yeah.
Stan: Or the ones he thought were failures
and he redid them?
Marshall: Yes.
Stan: I was looking at a few of them a few
days ago and like when you look at just a
failed one, it looks amazing.
Marshall: It's amazing.
Stan: It's like, 'Oh, that's great.'
And then you look at the one that made it
into the book it is like, 'Oh, okay.
Well, yeah, he did improve it.'
Marshall: He did improve it, yeah.
Stan: But he wouldn't have been able to keep
working on that first one to make it that new one.
Marshall: Yes.
Stan: He had to start over and redo it.
So sometimes.
Marshall: Yes.
Tearing down and rebuilding rather than tweeking.
Stan: Yes.
Sometimes it's not about just keep going and
keep fixing.
It might be quicker and you might get a better
result if you just do it again.
Marshall: Yeah.
Barron Storey is big on that.
That you destroy it and then start over again.
Claire Wendling does her drawings over and
over and over.
Each one can be a rehearsal until the one
that is a rehearsal, it doesn't need to be
a rehearsal anymore because it was good enough
as a finished piece.
That's one of the advantages of drawing.
You just keep doing it until one of them works
and that's the one.
Stan: Yeah.
What the fuck?
Brandon, is that your computer?
Brandon: No.
Stan: Is that Charlie.
Marshall: What happened?
Charlie: No.
Mine was muted.
Stan: Oh, that's mine.
Charlie: Oh.
[chuckle]
Stan: Can you turn the speakers off?
Marshall: While you do, give me just a moment.
Stan: Brandon!
What's going on?
Did I lose my co-host?
Charlie: I'm here.
Stan: I'm back.
I guess you sound just like him.
Charlie: Well, let's sing a song while we're
waiting for Marshall to return.
Oh, wait, here he is.
Stan: Your son is here.
Charlie: Are you here to usurp my power?
Marshall: You are more handsomer than me.
Stan: He's not arguing.
Marshall: I am proud to turn the throne over
to this, my beloved second offspring.
Stan: People are going to think it's true.
Marshall: Yeah, they are.
Charlie: I have nothing to say to that.
Stan: Okay.
Let's just continue the show.
Marshall: Did we answer our Norwegian friend's
question?
Stan: Um, I hope so.
I think it was a good answer.
I'm ready to move on to the next one.
Marshall: Okay.
Let's go to another.
Voicemail 2: Hi, my name is Cristy and I want
to become a fashion illustrator.
And I'm just getting started.
And what I really want to do is do fashion
illustrations for like cosplayers.
And I was just wondering, what do you think
the fundamentals are?
Thank you.
Bye-bye.
Stan: So, she said she wants to do cosplay
costumes?
Charlie: Yeah.
And she wants to design the costumes.
Stan: Designs cosplay costumes.
Charlie: Yeah. Do like the rotation and stuff.
Stan: Wouldn't that be like designing the
original character that you're cosplaying though?
I mean, I guess sometimes you have to make
it real, right?
Charlie: A lot of the times cosplayers will
make like their own invention based on a character.
Stan: Okay.
Okay.
Right.
Because sometimes it's really complex and
you have to figure out how it's actually going
to work on a person, right?
Charlie: That and also making like a different
version of a character.
This is a theme based off of like a gothic
dress that's incorporating elements of the
character but is its own unique design.
Stan: Interesting.
Okay.
Well the fundamentals, I mean, if you're talking
about the drawing part of it, it's the same
fundamentals as drawing.
You probably don't need to know perspective.
Sorry, Marshall.
Marshall: You don't need to apologize.
Stan: Yeah.
But I mean, yeah.
Marshall: I would add drapery into that.
Stan: Yeah, that's a big one.
Marshall: Yeah.
Stan: Yeah.
Drapery, you probably need to learn how to
draw people because you're putting costumes on people.
You should know what's underneath because
if you're going to put clothes on them correctly,
you should know what forms those clothes are
draping over.
Marshall: Some fashion designers though seem
to work very flat, decorative and let the
other people work that out.
Stan: Yeah. Almost like a blueprint of the thing.
Marshall: Or even more cartoony and then let
somebody else take it to this next level.
I mean, when you look at the preliminary work,
even concept art for movies, the blue sky
stage come up with any idea and any style.
It may not be practical but it gets us thinking
unusually.
But then, at some point if it's going to be
turned into an actual costume.
Cristy, you're probably already doing the
first thing which is that you're into the
the subject, into cosplay.
So you know what other people are doing, you're
looking at it, you're interested in it and
that's the start.
The next is that you get ideas then you draw
them out and then where you run into trouble
drawing them out, that's where you know that
you need help.
That's where you find the fundamentals.
You may say, "I'm really just into masks."
and if you're into masks and you have got
great ideas for masks, all of the practical
technical problems of designing masks you
will find out in your first dozen masks that
you design and build.
And you know, drapery and the way folds and
cloth work, the way ceramics and styrofoam
and things that will stretch, all of that
is a part of every student that I've seen
that got into designing costumes for cosplay.
That's where they put a great deal of their
energy.
Stan: Yeah.
Marshall: Is how to make this practical and
especially if you're going to make more than
one version of it.
Because when you make one version of it, that's
one thing, you've got a prototype.
Now, what if you want to sell this and mass-produce
it, then you've got a whole other set of problems.
You know this because you've done product.
Stan: Yeah.
You have to figure out a way that you're going
to make these things and not lose money.
Like a certain type of stitching might look
better but it's going to cost twice as much
or whatever I don't know.
I'm just making up stuff.
Marshall: Yeah.
But yes, you could have the stitching printed
on or you could have it actually done.
But I think that your motive is that you love
the costumes and so you're going to want to
make them as good as they can be.
And mass production is a whole other issue
that gets you out of the comfort zone of doing
this for yourself and your friends or for
a few select clients who have enough money
to afford to pay you a thousand or a couple
thousand dollars for a costume.
That you can spend a week or so full time
on and justify putting the energy into it.
But I don't know much about it and I wanted
to learn drapery back in the '80s and I got
a chance to teach fashion sketching at the
Junior College.
Stan: You taught fashion sketching?
Marshall: I taught fashion sketching and the
reason why is that I wanted to learn drapery.
Stan: Oh, I thought you wanted to learn fashion.
[chuckle]
Marshall: Well, I was in a room with a number
of people, the students who knew everything
about fashion and I knew nothing about fashion.
But I was there to teach them about drawing
and drapery.
Stan: Yeah.
Marshall: And I started to find out then that
there was a lot to fashion sketching besides
learning to draw.
Stan: Yeah.
I think learning to draw and even learning
drapery is secondary to just being able to
come up with the idea, the concept of what
you're trying to create.
Marshall: Yes.
Stan: Because the end product is not your
drawing.
It could be super sloppy, it could be a really
crappy drawing.
The drapery folds may not be represented correctly
but real drapery is going to act properly
even if you drew it wrong.
Marshall: Yeah. Right.
Stan: So, the end result is the way you designed
the idea.
It's not your drawing.
So most of the fashion sketches that I've
seen, the drawings weren't the best.
They were good enough.
Marshall: This is a question for fashion designers.
But like any discipline, you want to look
at it from two angles - One is the creative
side and one is the technical side.
The creative side is you go to those amazing
collections that Dover has done of the history
of costume and you spend time in there saying,
"I like this, I don't like this, I like this,
I don't like this."
You get to understand the evolution of costume.
That feeds your awareness of what people have
already done with clothing and costume.
And then look at what other people are doing
in the industry right now and decide what
you like and don't.
Come up with ideas.
And then, there is the technical side of it.
Which is the awareness that some cloth is
heavy and some cloth is light, some cloth
is expensive, some is cheap, some stretches
some doesn't, some has one kind of weaves
other has another kind of weave.
All those technical things.
But it's the two together.
If you're really good at ideas and you can't
ever make it happen, you got an issue.
If you can make it happen but you don't have
any ideas you are going to need to team up
with someone whose ideas you admire.
But that's advice for anything that you're
going to pursue.
Stan: Yeah.
I think experience with actually making the
costumes is probably more valuable than experience with drawing.
Marshall: Yeah.
So the best advice Cristy, is to hang out
with other people who are doing this, work
on stuff together and share each other secrets.
Bolster each other to more creativity.
Charlie: A lot of people have been doing
3D printing for the more ornate pieces of cosplay now.
Oh nice
Stan: That's expensive though.
Charlie: Well, a lot - you can get 3D...
Stan: I mean, I guess not if you doing just
really cheap printers.
Like you don't need super fine detailed prints.
Charlie: A lot of libraries have free access
to 3D.
Stan: Oh, wow! Yeah. Okay.
So they are like really low res prints, right?
Charlie: Probably.
Stan: Where you could see like thick layers.
Like each layer is like a millimeter thick.
Charlie: Yeah.
Stan: Yeah. Okay.
Yeah, that's cheaper then.
That's cool. That's a good idea.
Marshall: Well, we didn't do too bad for being
not-
Stan: For not knowing anything about a fashion.
Marshall: These questions are dangerous, they
get us out of our territory.
Stan: Yeah.
Voicemail 3: I am someone who is getting very
close to their 40s.
I'm 38.
My name is Giovanni Ingo Mingus.
Um, the thing is I feel that I want to get
in, become an artist.
Get a career in art.
But I also feel that I might be too old at
this point in my life.
I want to see what do you guys think.
And is this still a good age?
Is never - are you never too old?
But please let me know what you think.
Bye.
Stan: Someone asked us this question at Comic-Con
panel.
Marshall: Yeah.
It's a common question.
Stan: It is.
Marshall: But it usually comes from people
over 30 .
Stan: Over 30, yeah.
No, sometimes there's people in their 20s
that are like, "Oh, man.
I know this kid who's way better than me and
he's 17."
Marshall: Yeah.
Stan: And they are comparing themselves to
someone who's younger and better.
And because of that, they think that they
are too old.
But I mean, if you are a 15 year old and your
eight year old brother or sister is better
than you, you are probably going to think
you're too old.
Marshall: Yeah.
Stan: You know, it's just a feeling of inadequacy.
Marshall: Yeah.
Its relative and it's also a competitive model
I think that contributes to this is that if
someone is that young and that good, that
means how could I ever shine a light as bright.
And the competitive model has its advantages
but it's also got bad things about it.
And the worst thing about it is that it fosters
energy that can get you into this position
of doubt when you might say, "I want to do
it because I want to do it.
I want to see how good I can get."
It's a whole different energy.
The exploration, discovery, let me see how
good I am, let's dig for treasure even if
we don't find anything we are going to enjoy
digging.
Stan: Yeah.
He probably has a career doing something else.
And I guess, it always depends on the person's
situation.
Can you do both?
You know, can you make that transition very
slowly over ten years, where you are working
on improving your skills and drawing and just
enjoying that.
Enjoying the fact that you are able to draw
and support yourself with this other job that you have.
And not have the pressure like a lot of young
people do where they come out of college and
they don't have another career to fall back
on.
They have the pressure to make art work.
Right?
That's a totally other thing that he doesn't
have to think about.
Marshall: That's right.
There's no stakes.
Stan: Yeah.
Even if he fails, he still has this job that
he can fall back on.
But just don't expect to just start and switch
immediately.
Going slowly and even if you never really
reach that, do it just because you enjoy it
like you said.
Marshall: Mm-hmm.
There's another thing here.
And you are not being specific Giovanni, about
what kind of artist you want to be.
There are some crafts that are much more demanding
than others.
If you are a person who likes to come up with
ideas that make people laugh, the amount of
technical challenge to be a good cartoonist
is not as much as the amount of technical
challenge to be a director of action-adventure
films.
You got extremes of how much one takes.
It takes years and years of experience and
demand and full-time attention to do one and
the other it may be something in a matter
of two or three years you can get pretty good
at, if you feel like it's something that you
have got it in you to do.
So there is another thing is what is it that
you are trying to do?
Take color out of the mix.
Take rendering out of the mix.
Now you've got something that people tend
to call cartoons.
You've simplified your discipline.
Stan: Cartoons have color.
Marshall: Uh, yes they do.
I'm so used to painting cartoons that have
no color.
Stan: Oh, that is what you mean.
Marshall: Shel Silverstein stuff and all the
New Yorker things.
Stan: The comic strips.
Marshall: Yeah.
Stan: Black-and-white comic strips.
Marshall: But, ah, yeah.
There's a lot of times that when you are -
Stan: Newspaper comic shows.
Black and white newspaper comic strips.
Charlie: Yeah.
Sunday.
Stan: It's like.
Yeah. Not the Sunday one.
Marshall: And so, yeah, there are people who
pencil for comics.
There's people who ink for comics.
There's people who just color for comics.
Stan: Yeah.
So it depends.
But like as far as are you too old to have
a career and you're not even 40 yet, the answer
is, no but it depends on you.
Marshall: Yeah.
Stan: Like for example I started getting into
it very seriously when I was like 17.
And by the time I was like what?
27 I guess, I was earning enough to support
myself.
And that's basically going from knowing nothing
to having a career where I have a house.
So that's 10 years.
So if you're able to put in the same amount
of effort into it, you could by the time you're
40-something you could be a professional.
Marshall: Yeah.
Stan: Could.
Marshall: You could.
Stan: Could. Right. But it depends.
Marshall: But it's again, it's entirely dependent
on you Giovanni.
You are in midlife crisis.
And midlife crisis is where you recognize
that this movie is over halfway finished.
And the pressure that happens to do the thing
that I want to do surges up naturally.
And you've got that happening.
You're questioning it right now.
And you may have it surge enough to where
you say, "I'm going to ride this wave."
There will always be the setbacks.
There's going to be all the difficulties that
anybody goes through at any age.
But if you want it enough, that's what I think
it is more dependent on than anything else,
It's desire.
Stan: And you could do it even faster.
And there's people that go - they start getting
into it very seriously in college.
Marshall: Yeah.
Stan: And then four years in, they are really
good and they get hired right out of school
and that only took them four years maybe even
less.
That question, it's like the wrong question.
I don't know.
Marshall: I see this in colleges.
I've seen it for all of these years.
When you get returning students, a particular
kind of returning student, this is a student
who really - they are about this age, thirty,
forty, even fifty.
And they recognize that they went to school
and did not make use of it.
And they come in with such a seriousness,
I will learn this.
And they tend to be smart because they have
learned how to learn.
That's the most important thing.
When you are a kid, when you are a student,
when you learn how to learn, everybody else
just has to get out of the way because you
are going to figure this out.
So, you've got this awareness that life is
finite, you've got this desire and you can
say, "I will work smarter and more efficiently
than I would have if I was going at this where
life stretched on indefinitely in front of
me."
Stan: Just like to pitch The Art of Learning
again.
Great book.
Marshall: But people have been really positively
responsive to The Art of Learning.
Stan: Yeah.
I saw some people actually already read it.
Marshall: Well, it would be nice to be able
to tell you, I don't have them on the right
at the front of my mind, but many many stories.
Biographies of people who do their best work
in their second and third and fourth acts
of life.
Can be very encouraging.
Let me throw one out.
Dr. Seuss didn't do his first children's book
until he was 37 years old.
It was, To Think That I Saw it on Mulberry
Street.
Stan: 'He didn't do his first children's book',
what did he do before that?
Marshall: He was an illustrator.
He was an editorial illustrator.
Stan: Okay.
Marshall: But this did not, well, actually
it did include some rhymes I think.
Stan: Yeah.
So, he was pretty much doing the same thing
he just he didn't do the book.
Marshall: He made a transition.
But if you read, there's a biography done,
a very kind biography done by two of his friends.
He went into doing children's book illustration
as a sacrifice.
He had to turn down money.
He had to turn down other things.
It was not the kind of thing everybody wanted
to get into at the time.
But he made the transition and the first book
did not sell well enough to where he could
make his living on it.
Sold a little bit.
But he didn't have - The Cat In The Hat I
think was at about the age of 50 that that
one went ballistic and he became so famous.
But there are many other stories of people
who in their later decisions, they find sometimes
it's good to look at the stuff that you've
been doing up to this point and see which
ones of these skills that I already have contribute
to this.
Stan: Yeah.
Learning how to draw on paint is a lot like
sports in the way the discipline it takes
and the repetition and all that to get good.
You know, with sports, you have to be young
pretty much to perform at a peak level.
But with art, you don't.
It's not completely dependent on your body.
It's mostly dependent on your mind.
And so, if your mind can stay sharp through
your 80s and 90s or whatever, you could be
a professional artist when you are 90.
Marshall: Yeah.
Stan: So, if you are only 30-something, it's
a lot of years.
Marshall: Yeah.
Giovanni adopt old people who are on new journeys
and doing well as your role models.
Stan: [chuckle] Yeah.
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Voicemail 4: Hi, Stan
Hi, Marshall
I love the podcast.
I just want to ask you a little question.
Whenever you're doing work or at a convention
or anything like that, there's always that
one person who kind of just has that ideas
they want to tell you.
That they have the big idea that they want
to show you.
They kind of want you to help out with sometimes.
And you kind a lot be nice but you kind of,
you know, not let them down too hard.
I mean, what kind of advice would you give
to people like that who have that big idea
and they don't exactly know how to make that
idea happen for them and, you know, they are
asking you as an artist?
I love the show.
You are the best draftsman.
Thank you very much.
Stan: That's funny.
Marshall: I'm still not sure what the question
is.
When somebody asks, says that they have a
big idea and they ask you for help with it?
Stan: Yeah.
I get this a lot but not necessarily regarding
art but just with business.
Marshall: Hey, have I got an idea for you.
Here is what you got to do with your business.
Stan: It's like okay.
No.
I don't know.
I mean, but why is he asking this question?
Like are there artists that come to other
artists and say, "I have this idea maybe for
like a book and I want you to illustrate it.
And you can make it but I can't."?
Marshall: Yeah.
I have an image that came to me and I want
you to paint it.
Stan: That is hilarious.
Marshall: Yeah.
Charlie: I remember we've gotten a support
ticket, at least one, where someone wanted
to - us to incorporate or do the animations
for their project and stuff like that.
Like big projects that would take like all
of our resources to do.
Marshall: Here's the way you get them to do
it.
You pay them money.
It's called being a client.
You are hiring them as the supplier.
You get to be the art director not the art
suggester.
This is your money, you make the rules of
what it's going to be.
Stan: The problem with a lot of the people
that have these ideas and go to people with
them they don't have money to pay other people.
So their idea is, I'm going to let this person
have my idea or 50% of my idea because it's
so genius and they are going to execute it
and I will get 50%.
Marshall: Yeah.
It doesn't work that way.
Stan: No.
Your idea sucks.
I am sorry but your idea sucks on its own.
Marshall: Well, actually, there can be good
ideas.
Stan: Without execution there are no good
ideas.
Marshall: Without execution, yeah.
There are some seed ideas that are going to
be better than non-seed ideas.
Stan: Of course there is some worse ideas
than others.
[chuckle]
Marshall: Yes.
But that breaks down too because you can have
the worst idea in the world that is so well
executed that it becomes wonderful.
Stan: Pet rock.
Pet rock.
Marshall: Pet rock yes.
Stan: Stupid idea.
Marshall: But they pulled it off.
Stan: They did it really well.
Marshall: Some people might not know what
the pet rock was.
That was way before your time.
Wasn't it?
Stan: Yeah. But I think a lot of people know it as an
example of like, "Wow!
I can't believe that works."
Marshall: I remember when it happened and
I could not believe that anybody would buy
a pet rock.
And yet everybody was buying a pet rock.
Stan: Yeah.
Marshall: I did not buy a pet rock.
But it's a whole other issue.
Stan: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marshall: You can also have great ideas as
happens with some movies.
It was a wonderful premise but it's very hard
to pull a movie off.
So the work is in pulling it off.
And we don't have the right to create visions
for other people.
If we have a vision and someone else wants
to pick it up and run with it, great!
But to say, "I've got an idea for you.", is
intrusive.
It's the kind of thing that therapists will
focus in on if you are in the office with them.
That this is controlling behavior.
Yes.
Stan: [chuckle] Wow!
Really?
Marshall: That's not the thing to do, to go
and tell other people that you've got an idea
that they ought to do.
Stan: Yeah.
Marshall: Unless you are paying them.
Unless you say, "I want to hire you to do
this kind of thing."
Sometimes though, there are some people who
hire you to do something and they've got a
strong vision of what it should be.
Stan: Oh, yeah.
Marshall: That can be - that can be difficult
to work with.
In fact -
Stan: Oh, okay.
Marshall: But some crafts people like that.
I've worked almost always for art directors.
They knew what this was supposed to be but
they also knew to hire me for it because my
style fit for it.
So there's creativity in that.
It's also going to the right person that you
are going to pay.
But I don't know, we're going all over the
place on this.
I don't whether we are done.
Stan: Yeah and I think we're done with that
one.
Marshall: Okay.
Voicemail 5: Hello Stan and Marshall, I have
a one large question and another one small one.
The first one is about balancing fun and the
work factor.
Stan: Wait, what?
Voicemail 5: The stress that involves into
work.
Charlie: Fun and the work factor.
Marshall: Fun and the work factor.
Stan: Oh, balancing fun and work.
Marshall: Balancing fun and work. Yes.
Stress and the work.
Voicemail 5: For example you have a deadline,
you have tons of requirements from the clients
and you can't find the right pace for him.
And now there is stress piling up.
And when you do that and even if you find
it in the end, most likely feel like working and not art.
So, I wonder how did you guys tackles things
like that?
And the second one is for Stan.
Do you think there will be another application
like skelly but with muscles?
Thank you.
Stan: Damn it.
I get a first one.
Do you have any thoughts?
Marshall: I have a number of thoughts but
I would like to keep them short.
Stan: Okay.
Marshall: It's the thing is balancing the
difficulties of the job with the enjoyment of the job.
The challenges even including client challenges
and fatigue and all that other stuff and when
things are going well.
I don't know what the answer is to it.
Frank Oz who directed Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
on his commentary said, "Filmmaking is so hard.
Harder than anybody knows.
That I figure if there's anything that we
are going to do that is this hard, we ought
to do everything we can to make it fun."
So, I think that is, you do everything you
can to make this enjoyable, embracing the
difficulty of it in advance.
But there's no way anybody can say "I've got
a formula for you.
It's going to make your career easy".
Things are going to go well, every time something
looks like it's going to be bad it's going
to end up being good.
It just doesn't work that way.
It's a big question indeed.
Stan: Yeah.
Most things worth doing are going to be challenging.
Marshall: Yeah.
Stan: Personally, I really like work.
So, I've never not enjoyed it other than when
it's work that someone else makes me do.
So, I mean, if he has clients that tell him
what to do, I kind of, I get it.
Maybe he has similar personality to mine where
he just needs to do his own thing.
But when I have my own thing and I have tight
deadlines and I need to finish things fast,
I'm still enjoying that because it's my own
thing.
I don't know why.
Marshall: It shows it.
Stan: Yeah. Okay, cool.
Marshall: Well, people who raise children
- we've had people ask about how do you balance
dealing with kids and trying to be an artist.
It's such a huge thing.
What simple answer can you give?
But I always noticed that people who embraced
it and said, "I am a parent.
This is my job.
This is my creativity.", they had an energy
that made it so that however much I suffer,
this is going to be the thing that I decided
to do.
Stan: Yeah.
Marshall: And I think analogically that fits
with your career as an artist.
Who would ever go into the arts as a profession
because they wanted to make money in an easy way?
A deluded person would do that.
A person who has their eyes not open to the
reality of it.
If you choose this as a way to make your money
as a career, you're choosing something that's
going to be very difficult.
Even for the people who are the luckiest and
the most successful, it's still going to be
very difficult.
So embracing the work and knowing it's going
to be difficult in advance.
Stan: Yeah.
And if you are not enjoying it because it's
something that you are doing for someone else
and you are not really getting to decide what
to do, try to figure out how to make it yours.
To me I think that would work.
Is play with some ideas that you're working
on that your client doesn't even know that
you are doing this.
They are still getting what they asked for
but you have something in there that you are
working on in that project and you are trying
to improve on something or whatever.
Marshall: There's a quote from Alan Moore
in Writing For Comics.
Alan Moore said that early in his career he
made a rule for himself that he would not
take any job unless he could find a way to
make it personally interesting to him.
One way for Alan Moore was to radicalize the
idea.
To see how far he could take it.
And he said that, "Just having decided that
I am not going to take any jobs unless they
are jobs I want to do, they interest me."
He said he found himself in demand in a short
period of time.
Norman Rockwell made a similar comment.
That he said that when he took jobs that he
didn't really want to do, that he suffered
the tortures of the damned.
So, there comes a point where selectivity,
when you can afford to be selective about
which jobs you do, mean that you are doing
the work you love.
You are taking the challenges you want.
You are exploring where you want to go.
John Huston, the film director, said that
he had two criteria for which film that he would direct.
He said, "It had to be a good story.
Good script."
But the other thing is, "It had to take place
in a locale that he wanted to visit."
Stan: Oh, wow!
Marshall: I want to go to Africa.
I want to go to South America.
I want to go to Mexico.
And so that's how he made the choices.
Which means that he had a career of getting
paid phenomenally to travel to places he wanted
to go anyway.
Stan: That's cool.
Marshall: Yeah.
It's a nice attitude to take though.
That if you're going to say - it also had
to do with those 23 steps of lessons for success.
Stan: 23 Habits for Success.
Marshall: 23 Habits of Success.
To say 'no' and to say 'yes' to the things
you want.
Stan: Yeah.
Cool.
So the second part of that, the question was,
will there be another Skelly type App with muscles.
Aa-ah, yes and no.
I have no idea.
It's very hard to make this happen.
One is, it's not a priority for me right now
to make that happen.
Two is just technically difficult like to
have muscles deforming accurately.
Every single muscle in the body deforming
accurately to the movements of the joints
on a mobile device is very hard.
The phones aren't fast enough yet to even
do that, I don't think, without a crapload
or lag or just making the muscles so low-poly
that it's kind of pointless in my opinion.
If I was to do it, I want it to be really
good.
I could just make at the deltoids like a really
simple egg-like shape and have it deform in
kind of a way but I would want it to be super
accurate.
Marshall: And you know, it may not help you
as much as just looking at it.
Once you know the skeleton look at a live
model.
Stan: Yeah.
What we will have sooner though is a mannequin
version of it.
So, we will have surface forms but-
Marshall: That is what you are working on
right now.
Stan: Yeah.
We're working on that right now.
And I am not sure exactly when that will be
released.
But yeah, it will be a mannequinised version
of the surface forms instead of just a skeleton.
So that it will help you directly with drawing
an actual person rather than drawing a skeleton.
Marshall: Okay.
Stan: But he's thinking about muscles probably
he didn't learn anatomy.
Marshall: Yeah.
Stan: And, um, I mean, I could tell you that
when we do an animation with all like let's
say the muscles of a leg and they are deforming,
it will take several hours to render those frames.
And that's on a computer.
A really, really powerful computer.
Marshall: Boy!
Stan: And you're thinking, now I want to do
this on a phone, real-time as I'm moving it.
Marshall: This is such a pessimistic counterpoint
to the AI session that we did where we were
talking about that AI was going to do all
of this incredible stuff.
And now we're talking about the limitations
of technology and that you are expecting too much.
Stan: Yeah.
Marshall: Up against reality.
Stan: Yeah.
Marshall: This illustrates the fact that you
go into it thinking it's going to be easy.
Stan: Do you want to do what's your thing?
Marshall: I do.
It has to do with something we've talked about
previous.
I mean, today.
Stan: What?
What is it?
Marshall: For the last few years, I've not
made this public yet, for the last few years
I have been working with the junior college
at which I teach in Fullerton.
On a Children's Book Illustrations Certificate.
Stan: What?
Oh, certificate.
I thought you were working on a children's
book.
Marshall: No. It's Children's Book Illustrations Certificate.
Stan: Okay.
Marshall: This is a two-year program.
It can be done, if you have other things that
demand your time, in three or four years if you like.
But we have classes that I have written and
collaborated with other people to put together
so that if you say, "I really love children's
books and I want to understand how a children's
book is put together.
Where ideas come from.
What kind of illustration, techniques and
skills are necessary to do it.
And the love of the history of children's
books and how the industry happened."
That's what this certificate is about.
Is to give you for the lowest possible amount
of money that you could pay anywhere, to attend
these classes get your certificate.
And also, be in class with me because I am
going to teach at least one of the classes
every semester.
We've got one called Illustrating Literature.
We've got one called Children's Book Illustration
which I've taught a couple times already.
We've got a number of others that are in story
and turning stories into pictures.
So, if you are interested in that, it is now
official knowledge, the state has blessed it.
They are going to give the school money to
make the classes happen.
And you can find out more at fullcoll.edu
The college that I've been teaching and that I went to.
And if you are interested in that we are starting
it this next semester.
That is the spring semester of 2020.
Stan: Wow!
So your thing is an ad.
Marshall: It's an ad but it's something that
- I don't make any money from this.
Stan: From what?
Marshall: From pitching this.
I mean the classes either happen or they don't.
So I'm doing this for junior college teaching
wages.
But I'm doing it partly because I want to
attract people who have the same interest as me.
I'm hoping that one of the last things I do,
I want to teach composition, I want to teach
creativity, but I also want to spend as many
years as I can working with other people who
love children's books.
Even the kind of children's books that are
enjoyable for grownups to read.
Which William Steig's, Dr. Seuss' many others
that are just you know, wonderful bits of literature.
And to immerse myself in a culture of this,
where we produce and even give ourselves goals.
Of let's see if we can come up with dummies
for six books a year and do that for a few years.
And then you figure, if you get 24 books that
you've written and laid out, you are bound
to have a few in there that could be good
and if you get a community of people doing that.
And now that sub self-publishing is a thing
and the community college right now they have
got a printing department with millions and
millions of dollars of equipment.
Stan: Oh, wow! Really?
Marshall: Yes. I took classes there at 30-some years ago
in that printing department.
It's still there.
And most people don't know about this.
So, yes.
It is a pitch.
That is why I'm making this as my thing.
We've come up with having your second acting
life.
Stan: Okay.
I will accept.
Marshall: Thanks.
What's your thing Stan?
Stan: My thing is this Karl Kopinski book.
Marshall: Yeah.
Stan: So at Comic-Con a few months ago, I
bought this it's called The Big Kopinski.
Do you know Karl Kopinski?
Marshall: I do.
I met him through you.
Stan: He is an illustrator.
And this is an original painting on the cover
of this book.
That's why it's -
Marshall: That's not printed on the cover
of the book, he actually painted it?
Stan: This is not printed. This is an original.
He printed, I guess, a total of a hundred
blank covers.
Just white covers with, I guess, paper that
you can paint on.
And I bought one and he painted it.
Marshall: You are in the elite club.
Wow!
Stan: [laughter] What?
Marshall: Wow!
You've got out original Karl Kopinski cover
on The Big Kopinski book.
Stan: Yeah.
I'm really happy with this.
Marshall: I can see why.
Stan: It's really nice.
That's my thing.
I love it.
Marshall: Yeah. It's a great thing.
Stan: It's Conan killing someone.
Marshall: Uh, yeah.
I guess it is.
It's violent.
So when I say it's a great thing, we have
to put it in context.
Stan: Yeah.
Marshall: Necessity of war.
Stan: Well, this is an evil person.
Marshall: Oh, yeah.
So, he deserved it.
Stan: Yeah.
Marshall: Yeah. So, the killing is alright.
Charlie: Did you request that or did you
just ask him to do whatever he wanted to?
Stan: Whatever he wanted.
Yeah.
I just told him to make sure it's good.
Marshall: Make sure it's an evil person getting
killed not a good person.
Stan: No. I didn't say that.
I just said, "Make sure it's something good."
He's like, "Oh, I'll try."
Marshall: Yeah, yeah.
I'm sure the pressure really brought out his
extra.
Stan: Yeah.
He made it good.
Marshall: He did.
Stan: And he posted a time-lapse of him painting
this on his Instagram and it like went viral on this.
Yeah.
Because he was painting with both hands at
the same time.
Yeah.
Marshall: Does he do this normally?
Is painting with both hands.
Stan: Yeah.
He told me after because I asked him about
it.
And he was like, "Yeah.
I mean, it's time-lapse, so you can't really
see what I'm actually doing the second hand.
But what I'm doing is just it's the blending
marker."
He's not actually like making strokes.
Marshall: But he's crisping something, drawing
something here and then blending it here as
he goes so he's following it along.
Stan: Yeah.
Something like that.
It's so fast that you can't tell.
All you see his two arms going at the same
time.
Marshall: Wow!
And that's online and we and we can see
it.
Stan: Yeah.
It's on his Instagram.
Marshall: Yeah.
I would like to.
Stan: You got to go back in time to about
July 20th or something like that.
But it was during Comic-Con.
San Diego Comic-Con.
Marshall: And you own the original.
Stan: Boom!
That's my thing.
Marshall: Kapow!
Stan: That's it Marshall.
Marshall: What should people put in the comments
this week?
Stan: Um, after they give five star review
on iTunes, they should go to YouTube and comment.
Marshall: On?
Stan: Oh, man.
We have so many questions.
There's so many topics we talked about.
You look like you have an idea,
Marshall: Aim us at success stories of people
who, after they were done with the first act
of their life or the second act of their life,
chose what they wanted to do.
That can be encouraging even if you're young,
to know that you can have more than one career
or you can have new reinventions of your career.
There are so many stories like that.
Why not make a little collection, a treasure
chest of encouraging story.
Stan: Famous people.
Marshall: Even if they aren't famous and they
are worth telling.
But yeah, there is enough of them that had
done it famously that why not?
Even there is another thing and it's the people
who do really well early in their career and
then burn out.
And then some that do well early in their
career and stay steadily strong all the way through.
Norman Rockwell story, if you don't know,
My Adventures As An Illustrator is worth reading.
And then reading the post log that his son
wrote about his dad having tremendous insecurity.
That he was washed up as an illustrator and
yet he stayed strong as an -
Stan: Who?
Marshall: Norman Rockwell son.
Stan: Oh, Rockwell.
Marshall: Yeah.
Stan: Oh my god.
So Rockwell had impostor syndrome.
Marshall: Rockwell had impostor syndrome,
yes.
Stan: Oh my god.
Marshall: Or at least, he did later.
He did later.
I don't know that he did earlier.
Stan: Interesting.
Marshall: Yeah.
Oh, impostor syndrome is something.
Stan: We should have an episode on impostor
syndrome.
Marshall: Yeah, impostor syndrome is what
we should have a talk about.
Stan: Okay.
Well, stay tuned for a future episode on impostor
syndrome.
Marshall: Okay.
Stan: If you don't know what that is well,
stay tuned and you will find out.
Marshall: Yeah.
Stan: Okay, bye guys.
Marshall: See you.
