Tess Terrible: Welcome to Free Thoughts. I'm
Tess Terrible, one of the producers of Free
Thoughts podcast. We are recording our 200th
episode today. Our guests are Aaron Powell
and Trevor Burrus, regular hosts of Free Thoughts
podcast. We'll be discussing the history of
the show and how Aaron and Trevor were first
introduced to libertarianism. Aaron and Trevor,
welcome to Free Thoughts.
Trevor Burrus: Thanks. [00:00:30] That's kind
of weird isn't it?
Aaron Powell: It's good to be here.
Trevor Burrus: Yeah. You got a confused look
on your face on your face for a second. It's
like, wow.
Aaron Powell: Long-time listener, first-time
caller.
Trevor Burrus: Yeah, exactly.
Tess Terrible: This is my first time sitting
in this room recording with you guys. I guess
my first question would be: Could you guys
give us a little bit of the history of how
the podcast started.
Aaron Powell: Sure, so there's a podcast [crosstalk
00:00:50]
Trevor Burrus: It's not very interesting.
Aaron Powell: It's not terribly interesting
but we can-
Trevor Burrus: We can begin to like bring
it up a little bit.
Aaron Powell: Yeah. The people want to know.
[00:01:00] Trevor and I were both fans of
a podcast called Econ Talk. It's been around
for quite a while. We had Russ Roberts, the
host of it, on Free Thoughts-
Trevor Burrus: Two years ago maybe.
Aaron Powell: Two years, yeah. I had always
thought that that format, I enjoyed that format
a lot and thought that the kinds of things
that we talk about at libertarianism.org,
so less of the day-to-day policy or current
events and more ideas and history [00:01:30]
and theory behind policy would lend themselves
well to that format. At the same time I was
listening to another terrific show called
The Partially Examined Life, which is about
a handful of guys who read philosophy and
discuss it. That was also an inspiration so
it was, it would be fun to do this. We have
all the resources here to do it, it fits well
with what libertarianism.org is up to, let's
try it. In the space of, what? It [00:02:00]
went for like, it was like probably 48 hours
behind saying, "Hey let's do this ..." to
actually sitting down and recording the first
now very bad first episode.
Trevor Burrus: Did you listen to the first
episode?
Aaron Powell: I've listened to bits of it
again and it's ...
Trevor Burrus: I saw you on Twitter bad-mouthing
it.
Aaron Powell: It's not ...
Trevor Burrus: It's not that good but ...
Aaron Powell: It's not that good. We took
it from there.
Trevor Burrus: I liked the idea, of course,
and let me get into some of the other policy
areas that I like, which is pretty much all
policy areas except [00:02:30] for monetary.
Monetary is pretty much the one that I don't
really enjoy reading as much, but because
I do constitutional law here and I spend a
lot of my time, it's a very different job
than Aaron's, it's nice to be able to get
into other stuff. I specifically wanted, and
this is something Aaron and I wanted together,
was to be able to, as he said, not like Caleb's
podcast, the Cato Daily Podcast, where that's
often about Section 238 of some sort of bill
or some sort of specific policy area that's
come up that day, but [00:03:00] more evergreen
kind of things.
We wanted to bring on people like Michael
Cannon and not ask him: How does Obamacare
work or not work, but to ask him: How do libertarians
think about healthcare, and then to try to
ask him all the questions that someone would
want to ask a libertarian about healthcare
that are the kind of obvious, what about people
dying in the streets kind of questions. Bringing
on Cato Scholars are our obvious resource,
initial resource, bringing them on to really
get into the ideas and the [00:03:30] theories
that inform the way they do policy.
Tess Terrible: I'd like to build off that
on how you both think about sourcing and ideas
for podcasts.
Trevor Burrus: Sourcing? You mean finding
people to be on the podcast?
Tess Terrible: Yes, finding people to be on
the podcast, different topics that we explore
on the podcasts.
Trevor Burrus: It kind of depends upon, we
pay attention to articles, books, people coming
to Cato. Sometimes it's just someone's in
town for either a Cato event or maybe another
organization's [00:04:00] event or something
we maybe specifically want to do. Occasionally
we'll do one that's thinking about current
events, although sometimes that's difficult
to really hit those at the right time. Earlier
this year we did one with Alex Nowrasteh on
immigration that seemed pretty relevant to
the immigration debate. It's hard to hit the
current events though so much as with the
books and the friends of ours who are in town.
We have a lot of friends in the libertarian
world so we can kind of reach out to them
and say, "Hey, you want to come on?"
Aaron Powell: Yeah. I think Trevor [00:04:30]
probably is responsible for more of the guests
than I am. The nature of his work, he's paying
more attention to all of the people within
the movement and all of the scholarship going
on. For me, it's ... I just come across things.
I'll read a book. I'll see a book review.
I will read an interesting blog post. I will
... There'll be someone I'm following on Twitter
who I think is cool and might have neat things
to say or people [00:05:00] I've met at conferences.
It's really just ... I often think of Free
Thoughts as the continuation of the way that
I approached professor office hours in my
undergrad. I was one of those kids in undergrad
who went to professors' office hours all the
time because it was a lot of fun to just sit
down and talk with these highly-educated people
about their field.
For me [00:05:30] it's, I'll come across things
that are just like, that is someone who I
would really enjoy talking with for an hour
and learning what they know about a topic
and then so just send them an e-mail and invite
them on. One of the more gratifying things
is just how many people say 'yes'. Most people
seem happy to come on Free Thoughts.
Trevor Burrus: Yeah, I've never had anyone
outright just say 'no'. Either it's just,
"Oh, I don't have enough time until this happens
..." or they just didn't respond to an e-mail,
so I guess that's one way of saying 'no' if
you're cold e-mailing someone, but I think
[00:06:00] more often it just sort of slips
through the cracks 'cause most people like
to talk about their work and get it promoted.
Tess Terrible: Do you all have a approach
to the podcast interview?
Trevor Burrus: I think long-time listeners
will probably be able to tell the approach
that we both have to some extent.
Aaron Powell: I think that I ... I mean, the
feedback that I get from listeners, which
I'm happy about because it's what I try to
do, I try to play devil's advocate a fair
amount. I try to put myself ... [00:06:30]
Because we're libertarians, we're at the Cato
Institute, a lot of the people we have on
are libertarians. There are things that we
disagree with our guests about frequently,
but on the whole we're coming from similar
places and so I try very hard to put myself
into the shoes of someone who thinks what
they're hearing is crazy, thinks it's completely
and obviously wrong or thinks they have very
strong objections and then give voice to those
to [00:07:00] take the potential criticisms
as seriously as possible.
Trevor Burrus: Yeah. Since I am not married
and don't have three kids I tend to do more
reading of this stuff before Aaron and that's
why he has many other things he's doing but
I often try to read, especially if there's
a book episode, I've usually read the entire
book for a given episode. I kind of let Aaron
do the devil's advocate thing, you'll hear
me do it sometimes but I often have [00:07:30]
an entire, having read the whole book, kind
of an idea that I want to get through at least
some of these ideas that the author has written
about. Maybe the third section is the best
but you've got to lay the groundwork so your
listeners can hear that I might be leading
them a little bit more, leading them on for
questions that I already know the answer to
and then letting Aaron jump in and push back.
Tess Terrible: Yeah. I think my favorite comment
I've seen on Twitter was that you were both
classified as humble inquisitors.
Trevor Burrus: [00:08:00] Oh really? That's
a good one.
Aaron Powell: That's nice. I like that.
Tess Terrible: Humble inquisitors. Yeah. We
do have a variety of guests on the podcasts
and I'm wondering, who do you enjoy interviewing
the most? Is it authors, intellectuals? You've
had a couple people from pop culture on discussing
pop culture.
Aaron Powell: I don't know if there's a category.
I think I like [crosstalk 00:08:22]
Trevor Burrus: I think policy scholars. Not
just art, I mean policy scholars as a general
rule, that's what, because often ... We talk
[00:08:30] for a living and an author may
not be terribly great at talking. They might
be really good at writing but not terribly
good at talking, so policy scholars tend to
be really good guests.
Aaron Powell: That's true, but as far as like
the ... There have been certainly people in
all of the categories who have been wonderful
to talk to. I think the kinds of guests that
I like the most are ones who are, first easy
to talk to.
Trevor Burrus: Of course, yes. [00:09:00]
There are a few episodes, yeah.
Aaron Powell: Sometimes we're just ... It's
weird because to some extent, you might just
get that stereotype that Trevor mentioned
of the writer who's good at writing but not
good at talking. There's another version of
that that sometimes comes up, which is the
person who's really used to doing media, who's
really used to doing television or short radio
spots and so you'll ask a question, and at
Free Thoughts we like to have, we want it
to sound more like a conversation [00:09:30]
than a strict ....
Trevor Burrus: Because it is a conversation.
Everyone should know that there's almost ... There's
very little editing that goes on in a Free
Thoughts episode.
Aaron Powell: Yes, but it's not ... We don't
try to make it be like ask a question, get
an answer, ask a question, get an answer.
Sometimes you'll get people who are so trained
in media appearances that you ask a question
and they give you like a perfectly encapsulated
30-second answer and then just stop.
Trevor Burrus: I remember Michael Tanner was
really good at that, 'cause Michael Tanner
is like so experienced that you just like
his 30-second answer.
Aaron Powell: Right. [00:10:00] Those are
sometimes more difficult because you have
to say, like ...
Trevor Burrus: And ...?
Aaron Powell: I also think, anyone who just
is willing to really kind of, not just explore
their particular expertise but to like question
the assumptions behind it to delve into it
in more depth. I like guests who like to think
about these things at kind of a more theoretical
or abstract [00:10:30] level because those
are the kinds of conversations I particularly
enjoy. But then we've had very concrete ones
that are terrific too. We've had ones that
we tend to call practitioner ones where it's
someone who's not in policy, someone who's
not in academia and not an author but is a
business owner.
Trevor Burrus: Or like a practicing lawyer.
Aaron Powell: Yeah, who can just tell us about
their job and what they do and how they've
succeeded and then how policy issues, political
issues, factor into that.
Trevor Burrus: I like to do, I like episodes
where [00:11:00] I don't know much about what's
going on. I kind of said I don't really do
monetary policy, that is the biggest hole
in my knowledge. Foreign policy, I don't do
a lot of reading on my own time because I've
convinced that either you should know a lot
about foreign policy and have a very informed
opinion or you probably should just refrain
from having opinions if you don't have time
to read all the foreign policy. I really enjoy
having on guests who are really teaching me,
so I'm not asking leading questions, I'm [00:11:30]
actually asking ... I have no idea what we're
talking about, please tell me more. People
like George Selgin, our colleague here, is
always a great guest 'cause I just really
don't know much about what he's talking about.
John Glaser, who was just a recent episode
is a similar type of thing. Those are really
exciting for me 'cause they're great learning
opportunities, outside from the prep I did
for the podcast beforehand.
Tess Terrible: As you mentioned before, this
is a more conversational podcast more so than
the other podcasts that are produced by The
Cato [00:12:00] Institute. I worked with Caleb
Brown on the Cato Daily Podcast for a couple
of years and now I have the privilege of working
with both of you on this podcast. I'd really
like to know, although it is conversational,
what's going through your head during the
podcasts? How are you hoping to lead the conversation
one way or the other?
Trevor Burrus: Aaron's like smiling.
Aaron Powell: no, I mean 'cause [crosstalk
00:12:24]
Trevor Burrus: Just picture ... Aaron's going
to be like, well sometimes I'm like, Aaron's
thinking, what the heck is Trevor talking
about? Sometimes [00:12:30] I'm thinking,
what the heck?
Aaron Powell: Oh sure. [crosstalk 00:12:31]
Trevor Burrus: Where is Aaron going with this?
Like I said, yeah ... But Aaron's like, okay
what do I need to push back on ... and I said,
yeah.
Aaron Powell: Trevor and I come into an interview,
into a discussion, with a set of questions
that we've written up, so it's ... We share
a Google Doc and we have the person's bio
at the top and we have a bulleted list of
questions, usually about a page, [00:13:00]
page and a half worth of questions that we've
just typed up while reading the book or reading
the policy paper or in our research. They're
not ... They're kind of in an order in the
sense that we've figured out what the opening
question is and we have figured out what the
closing question's going to be, but the ones
in the middle are usually less prioritized.
Trevor Burrus: You can't really lead your
guest exactly where you want.
Aaron Powell: Yes. [00:13:30] We come in with
an idea of like these are the kinds of questions
we'd like to get answered. These are the kinds
of topics we'd like to see addressed and maybe
this is roughly the order we'd like to approach
them in, but then both of us, I think, try
to let it flow the way that it flows. If it
goes off in another ... If the conversation
goes off in another direction, we let it and
we'll only really return to the sheet if there's
a pause, if it feels like we've run out of
steam on that particular [00:14:00] line of
questioning. I would say in a given episode,
we usually get ... We actually ask maybe half
to two-thirds of the stuff that's on the paper
that we sat down with.
Trevor Burrus: And ask a bunch of things that
aren't on the paper.
Aaron Powell: Yeah.
Trevor Burrus: 'Cause, of course, a few things
... It's different than just having a conversation
in the sense that there are a few tasks that
we have to be mindful of, one is clarifying
jargon so you have to be able to say, okay
is this something that everyone's going to
know what they're talking about [00:14:30]
and asking follow-up questions to clarify
more complex issues and things like that.
Those are important ways to ... You have to
be thinking a little bit different than just
having a conversation, but a lot of the people
who are on our podcast are friends of mine,
especially Cato staffers and a lot of the
academics. The conversation that we're having,
although it's a little bit more obviously
stylized than maybe formalized, it's not terribly
different than the kind of thing we'd be talking
about at a bar over [00:15:00] the same type
of thing, so it's one thing I really like
about the show.
Tess Terrible: I guess that almost answers
my followup question, which is: Do you ever
get nervous before a podcast?
Trevor Burrus: I think a couple guests ...
Tess Terrible: Yeah.
Trevor Burrus: ... Like back earlier on when
we had people that we particularly revere
on, people like Richard Epstein, Matt Ridley.
Aaron Powell: Thomas Sowell.
Trevor Burrus: Thomas Sowell. Thomas Sowell
was pretty nerve-wracking, [00:15:30] partially
because it was over Skype and we had been
told that he could be irascible sometimes
and there were a bunch of rules on top of
that and Thomas Sowell is particularly important
to the intellectual development of Aaron and
I. When big heroes of yours are coming in
you might get a little bit nervous, but I
think I've gotten over that mostly.
Aaron Powell: Yeah, I think that ... I wouldn't
say I get nervous. Sometimes if it's a topic
that I really don't [00:16:00] feel that I
know all that well. I've done the research
but still don't feel like I know all that
well there's a little bit more nerves but
it always turns out fine because if part of
what we're trying to with this show is help
our listeners to understand the particular
topic or set of ideas, then going into it
not knowing stuff just gives lots of opportunity
to ask ...
Trevor Burrus: Stupid questions.
Aaron Powell: ... Ask the stupid questions
that are exactly the stupid questions [00:16:30]
that everyone else is hoping someone will
ask.
Tess Terrible: Myself included.
Trevor Burrus: What about you? Are you ever
sitting there going: I really wish they would
ask this question, and then do we usually?
Tess Terrible: Sometimes. Sometimes I have
guests that you bring in that I'm doing my
best not to fan girl over.
Aaron Powell: Are there times when you're
listening to us and you're like, oh man they
blew it.
Tess Terrible: Yes, but I'm not going to mention
those times. [00:17:00] Yeah, we ...
Trevor Burrus: Ooh, I'll have to ask you off-air.
Tess Terrible: Yes. That leads me to ... We
talk to a lot of intellectuals, a lot of scholars
on this show, and then we have a few guests
that have very unique personal experiences.
Can you talk to me a little bit about what
it's like talking to those people.
Trevor Burrus: Yeah, so we've had people like
Shon Hopwood and Bernie Kerik are two that
we've had on who talk a lot about their own
lives, Shon is the most recent one.
Aaron Powell: Both spent [00:17:30] time in
prison.
Trevor Burrus: Both spent time in prison.
I think the episode we did with Dr. Ryan Neuhofel
was somewhat related to that, his own personal
experiences of being a direct primary care
physician.
Aaron Powell: When we had our episode about
Guantanamo Bay with an ex Guantanamo Bay guard.
Trevor Burrus: I really, really like doing
those episodes. I think that they're popular.
I think that they're very valuable. I would
like to do more of them. It's hard to find
guests of the sort where you, that I'd like
to put on human interest stories of someone
who had, I don't know, gotten [00:18:00] wrapped
up in the EPA over some sort of long period
of time with some sort of Kafkaesque story
of declaring wetlands in the Everglades and
something like that. A lot of people who are
put in those situations are not guaranteed
to be great talkers and people who can get
into the kind of ideas that we like to get
into on Free Thoughts. Definitely some of
my favorite episodes are the personal experience
ones because you're just hearing a fascinating
story from someone who's done something incredible
or who has lived a fascinating life.
Tess Terrible: How do you feel [00:18:30]
about talking about your own opinions on certain
areas of public policy?
Aaron Powell: Clearly our guests can ... We're
highly reticent to express our own opinions.
Trevor Burrus: I wonder if they wonder what
our opinions are though.
Aaron Powell: I don't know. I guess that's
a good ... If ...
Trevor Burrus: We have episodes where we just
talk.
Aaron Powell: Hit us up on Twitter and let
us know.
Trevor Burrus: Yeah. We have episodes that
are just either you being a guest or me being
a guest. I'm sure sometimes they wonder what
our opinion is, or maybe they don't. I don't
know.
Aaron Powell: I certainly think we both [00:19:00]
express our opinions a fair amount. Neither
one of us would be in the careers we are in
if we weren't the kind of people who really
like telling other people our own opinions.
At the same time, I think it's really important
... One of the bad ways that people discuss
politics is to go into it assuming that my
opinions are correct and I know everything
[00:19:30] about this, or that the person
that I disagree with, I'm disagreeing with
them because they simply don't know as much
as I do or they have impure motivations or
whatever. To not listen and to just trample
their expression with your own expression
of your opinions.
I don't think that we ... We don't try to
cover up our opinions or tone them down or
whatever, but it's more just, we're here [00:20:00]
as kind of representatives for our audience,
that's our first job, and so what we want
to get is just a full and complete and fair
picture of what our guest has to say and we're
less interested in particularly advancing
our own views on the subject.
Trevor Burrus: I guess the answer to this
question would be more interesting if we had
more people on who we disagreed with fundamentally,
which is not a product of not trying, [00:20:30]
it's more about ... When you asked, Tess,
like how do we get these guests on, I guess
I know a lot of libertarians. I know a lot
of people in the libertarian world that I
can e-mail them and say: Hey I really like
your book, and of course there is a theme
to this podcast, but I think Aaron and I both
agree that we would love to have more people
on who disagree with libertarianism and then
the question of ... We had Jennifer Lawless
on, we've had Elizabeth Anderson on and I
think we're going to have Elizabeth on again.
Even if someone isn't totally libertarian
we might be just talking to them about something
that we [00:21:00] agree upon but if we had
... One thing I would love to grow the podcast
in such a way to bring on people who disagree
with us. If you disagree with us and you're
an academic or some sort of person who has
[inaudible 00:21:10], send us a tweet and
maybe we can have you on.
Aaron Powell: Come on. Tell us why we're wrong.
Trevor Burrus: Yes.
Tess Terrible: So this being our 200th episode
and us having the opportunity to talk about
this, who would you like to see on the podcast
in the future if you had a wish list.
Trevor Burrus: Oh, there's so many more guests
that we could get on. I think ... [00:21:30]
One of my goals has been people who are kind
of celebritarians who are ... Well not celebritarians
that's libertarians who are celebrities, I
mean celebrities who are actually libertarians.
Aaron Powell: Like [crosstalk 00:21:41]
Trevor Burrus: I would love to get libertarian
sympathy, so people like Mike Rowe and Adam
Carolla would be super fun to have on. I would
love to have on someone like Clarence Thomas,
that would be a great episode. I'd like to
have more representatives on, people like
Justin Amash would [00:22:00] be good, Thomas
Massey, Rand Paul, people like that.
Aaron Powell: On my side, my wish list of
guests ... I mean there's not like a ton,
if you think of the question as like who are
the kind of dream guests that would be hard
to get on, our experience has been that most
of the people we ask are willing to come on
and as the show grows they're more willing
to come on so that list isn't all that big.
For me it's more [00:22:30] like the people
I really would like to talk with, 'cause again
if I'm thinking of this as like who would
I like to talk with for an hour. There's a
list of particularly philosophers who I have
learned a ton from and have really gotten
a lot out of their books and would like to
discuss with them. It's more of those ... For
me it's more of those academics.
Trevor Burrus: I think that another one that
[inaudible 00:22:55] is on the academic side
is James C. Scott I think would be, who has
written a bunch [00:23:00] of important books
about anarchy in the state. He has a new one
out called Against the Grain. He wrote Seeing
Like a State and The Art of Not Being Governed.
He's someone I would really like to bring
on. I've tried to e-mail him a few times and
probably just sort of went away or went to
his spam folder or whatever. There's definitely
a lot of academics who would be nice to have
on. I would like to have someone on like George
Akerlof who won the Nobel Price and is married
[00:23:30] to Janet Yellen, mostly because
I think his last book is quite insane and
so I'd like to really grill him on that book,
but I don't see getting many Nobel laureates
on here as of yet, especially if they're not
friendly to libertarians I guess would be
a better way of putting it.
Tess Terrible: Over 200 episodes, 200 interviews,
what have you learned about libertarianism?
Aaron Powell: I think one thing that I've
learned or at least developed is a greater
sense of the breadth [00:24:00] of libertarianism
and the breadth of the ways that liberty and
politics interact. You come in as a certain
... I came into libertarianism in a very specific
way, through a specific kind of set of ideas.
I came in through economics and philosophy
and approached it in this academic way. I
think a lot of the people in the movement
come in either through political activism
or [00:24:30] through academic pursuits. They
have this kind of abstract way of thinking
about liberty or this very electoral way,
but seeing the ways that such a variety of
people are part of this, the ways that they
experience political liberty or experience
the lack of political liberty.
The kind of personal story episodes that [00:25:00]
we've talked about but also the practitioners
and also some of the people working in the
trenches in areas of policy that I hadn't
been paying as much attention to or hadn't
had as much exposure to. Some of our episodes
with Peter Van Doren on the specifics of regulations
where it's these things that if someone sat
down and told you they were going to tell
you about telecom regulation in the 1980s,
[00:25:30] that sounds dreadfully dull, but
when you start hearing all the details of
it, these are crazy stories with heroes and
villains and at good pacing when Peter's telling
it.
I think that, for me, is like just seeing
how much more variety there is in the study
and practice of liberty than [00:26:00] I
think I had coming into it four years ago.
Trevor Burrus: I guess going off of that,
one thing that I learned, and this is a little
bit silly to say, but I'm trying to think
of the right way of saying this, but especially
for our colleagues here at Cato who have been
guests who most of them at this point have,
I think, our colleagues are really, really
smart and it's sort of funny for me to say
that because I've been a huge fan of Cato
for decades [00:26:30] and I have, especially
before I started here everyone at Cato was
a rock star to me because I was consuming
all the podcasts and all the events and so
someone like Mark Calabria, who recently has
left Cato but became a good friend of mine.
You know he's really smart, you've heard and
talked about him all the time and you've heard
him on TV and you've seen his writings, but
then you get him in the chair and you're able
to kind of grill him, so to speak, and you
realize how [00:27:00] deep his knowledge
is on the areas like the episode we did with
him on housing and the policies around housing.
Some things where I initially think, I was
like, oh I bet he doesn't know the answer
to this question, of course they do know the
answer to that question. It goes without saying
that Peter Van Doren is particularly good
at that and is definitely one of the favorite
guests for both of us. His depth of knowledge,
it blows people away inside the building and
it's great to get him on [00:27:30] the show
so you can sort of share it outside of these
walls.
Tess Terrible: What policy areas have you
developed an interest in since working on
this podcast?
Trevor Burrus: For me that's a weird question
to ask. I have an answer to that to some extent
but I'm kind of omnivorous when it comes to
policy areas, so there weren't many that I
wasn't interested in. Some of them became
more interesting to me because of the guests
that we've had [00:28:00] on. If I wasn't
doing constitutional law and criminal justice
work here I would probably be doing something
in healthcare policy or education policy.
Episodes that we've done on healthcare policy,
whether with Peter Suderman or Michael Cannon
or on education policy with Neil McCluskey,
for example, get into the deep history of
what's actually going on in the history of
public schooling or the history of the American
medical system. [00:28:30] Those episodes
particularly piqued my interest even more
to learn more about those.
I also, bringing it up again, monetary policy
has become more interesting to me because
of talking to George Selgin, both actually
on Free Thoughts and just personally when
we go have lunch or something. The way he
talks about money, the episode we did with
him on the gold standard was very illuminating.
The episode we did with him on just sort of
how money evolved in the United States. [00:29:00]
All of those have made me more interested
in learning about those areas.
Aaron Powell: I am not as omnivorous as Trevor
when it comes to policy. I tend to stay more
focused on my areas of philosophy and moral
issues of politics. Although, like Trevor,
I had a pretty wide exposure coming in, not
because I had been just reading tons of policy
for my day job, but because prior to starting
libertarianism. [00:29:30] org my first job
at Cato was as the staff writer and the staff
writer's chief job is to write this bi-monthly
magazine called Cato Policy Report that is
effectively the newsletter about what Cato
has been up to over the last two months, and
that includes summaries of most of Cato's
output, which meant that in the years before
I started libertarianism.org I would attend
every single Cato event, every single Hill
briefing. [00:30:00] I read every book and
every paper we published. If you do that for
two years you're going to get a pretty solid
overview of public policy.
That said, I think the area that my interest
has most been sparked and I've followed up
the most on is the stuff that comes from the
conversations that we've had with our colleagues,
Julian Sanchez and Patrick Eddington digital
privacy, [00:30:30] about surveillance, about
kind of the ways that policy and law interact
with the online world. I was somewhat interested
in that stuff, I knew about it, but the conversations
with them, it's really fascinating stuff and
I think they are the most followed up on in
my own reading and independent study.
Tess Terrible: With the current political
climate and increased media attention [00:31:00]
on libertarianism, how do you think perceptions
of libertarianism have changed throughout
the year?
Aaron Powell: I think there's two ways that
they have.
Trevor Burrus: We're probably thinking the
same two ways.
Aaron Powell: Okay.
Trevor Burrus: I'll let you know after you're
done answering your question.
Aaron Powell: One is libertarianism, I think,
is a scapegoat for [00:31:30] what's wrong
with the country, that it was libertarians
that gave us Trump, whether because some of
them may have voted for Trump or because they
didn't vote for Clinton or because they voted
for Gary Johnson. They're a convenient ... My
political side lost or my political side isn't
accomplishing what they wanted to, or I can't
get legislation through because those libertarian-ish
republicans in the freedom [00:32:00] caucus
are mucking up the works or whatever. I think
that there kind of were political outsiders
who could be blamed often without much cause
for the dysfunction of everyone else.
At the same time, I believe that there is
a willingness to, if not take us more seriously
then to at least pay attention to our ideas
or co-opt [00:32:30] our ideas. Suddenly we
have people who weren't really worried about
what the federal government was up to under
Obama because Obama was a nice guy who seemed
like a cool dude who wouldn't do anything
wrong and had everyone's best interests in
heart and so we didn't have to worry about
the wars that he was starting or the surveillance
programs that he was overseeing or the press
[00:33:00] freedoms that he was curtailing
because he was one of us.
With Trump, I think a much larger portion
of the population is suddenly sympathetic
to the kinds of critiques of state power that
we libertarians have been making for decades.
You see people pushing back against surveillance.
You see people questioning war in a way that
they weren't a couple of years [00:33:30]
ago. You see the rise of movements against
police misconduct, police brutality. I think
those are encouraging signs and if they're
not, I think a lot of these people, they aren't
saying, "Oh, these libertarians have some
good ideas. I'm listening to them and now
I'm acting upon them." It's more just libertarianism
is kind of in the air more than it was because
the underlying nature of the environment has
shifted [00:34:00] and so even if they're
not willing to give us credit for being the
ones who have been championing these ideas
for decades while everyone else has been silent
about them, it's at least good that they're
suddenly kind of taking our side on these
issues.
Trevor Burrus: Basically we had the same,
very similar two categories. I think that
Trump presents good opportunities for libertarians
of a certain sort to basically demonstrate
that we aren't conservatives and to demonstrate
that we have a unique [00:34:30] and interesting
critique of government that is relevant, particularly
in times like now, but it's actually always
relevant. I also think that there's a lot
of people out there who call themselves libertarians
and I can't control who calls themselves libertarians.
One reason we started this podcast and one
of the things that Cato works towards and
one of the things that libertarianism.org
works towards is a better, more robust view
of what libertarianism is, and there are a
lot of people out there who don't really [00:35:00]
have that and they might be Trump voters,
for example, and I'm not saying it's impossible
to be libertarian and vote for Trump, but
a lot of really, really fervent Trump supporters
call themselves libertarians. A lot of alt-righters
have called themselves libertarians and a
lot of people who are very racist have called
themselves libertarians and a lot of "states
righters" have called themselves libertarians.
That doesn't really help us too much and those
people are kind of on the ascendancy to some
degree, I just wish they would use a different
word to describe [00:35:30] what they believe.
On the other side we have places like Cato
and other libertarian organizations around
Washington DC who are, I think, for some organizations
are finally getting separated from the conservative
side that we have always been put on 'cause
I personally don't think of libertarianism
as being on the right, I actually think, I
think if anything obviously it's not a one-dimensional
political spectrum but I have more in common
with people on the left than I do with people
on the right. What Trump [00:36:00] has done
is he, I think he has split conservatives
in a way that they have ... That split has
always been there but now it's in the oval
office and it's much more politically real.
He's split conservatives between what I would
call collectivist conservatives, which are
the nationalist groups, the state is a family
kind of view of conservatives, the people
who want to want to ban drugs because it's
bad for your soul, the people who want to
ban foreigners because it's bad for [00:36:30]
American jobs and those things, and then what
I would call classical liberal conservatives,
the ones who are more repulsed by Trump who
have always found more affinity for libertarians,
although they may not want to go into the
things that scare them about libertarianism
like our beliefs on immigration, our beliefs
on foreign policy.
That puts Cato in particular and libertarians
in a pretty good spot to come in there and
say: Look at what we believe on immigration
in these heated times about immigration that
we've always believed on immigration. And
then people [00:37:00] say: Wow, those libertarians,
they're not conservatives. I always thought
they were ultra-conservatives or arch conservatives.
That's what the New York Times sometimes likes
to call us, that libertarians was just a version
of conservatism that is more extreme than
the sort of okay, friendly conservatives down
the block. I think in the Trump era, more
and more people realize that libertarianism
is an entirely different way of looking at
government.
Tess Terrible: Besides acting as regular hosts
of Free Thoughts podcast, you both have other
responsibilities [00:37:30] and jobs outside
of recording. Is listening to podcasts part
of your daily lives?
Aaron Powell: I think for me more than Trevor.
Trevor Burrus: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Aaron Powell: I listen to a fair number of
podcasts.
Trevor Burrus: I listen to books on tape more
than podcasts, but you listen to a lot of
podcasts.
Aaron Powell: Yeah, although with a few exceptions,
most of the podcasts I listen to are not politics
at all, not related to it, they're not about
philosophy, they're not about history, they're
about other topics that interest me, they're
palate [00:38:00] cleansers [crosstalk 00:38:01]
Trevor Burrus: Is there a fountain pen podcast?
Why isn't there? Why don't you start the fountain
pen podcast?
Aaron Powell: Oh, there are many fountain
pen podcasts.
Trevor Burrus: Aaron's a big fan of fountain
pens, by the way. It's his ...
Aaron Powell: I do not listen to any of them
because my interest within fountain pens,
even the very narrow field of interest within
fountain pens is then further narrowed for
me so only certain aspects of it and most
of them are long discussions then of aspects
of pen culture that I'm less willing [00:38:30]
to spend time listening to.
Trevor Burrus: Okay, so you're still weird,
that's fine. You listen to other things like
horror podcasts and story podcasts.
Aaron Powell: Yeah. I like a lot of the radio
drama shows that are out there right now.
The Black Tapes podcast is terrific. The only
real political podcast I listen to is The
Fifth Column, which is incredible and I love
it with Kmele Foster [00:39:00] and Matt Welsh
and Michael Moynihan, but then it's a lot
of tech podcasts, Accidental Tech podcast,
so on.
Trevor Burrus: Yeah. I still listen to EconTalk
on the regular, which has always been the
podcast that I predominantly listen to and
is still one of my go-to, definitely one of
the things that helped me most in just becoming
an informed libertarian was listening to EconTalk,
especially as someone who essentially never
took an economics class in [00:39:30] my entire
life, but going through whatever. I probably
haven't listened to every EconTalk but let's
say 350 episodes of EconTalk is more than
the hours you would spend doing a PhD in economics,
probably, in class, well maybe not PhD but
at least a bachelors. It's a great education
for anyone who doesn't already listen to EconTalk.
Tess Terrible: Aaron, I've been specifically
asked to direct this question at you: How
were you first introduced to libertarianism?
Aaron Powell: Asked by who to direct it to
me?
Tess Terrible: Our [00:40:00] other producer,
Evan Banks.
Aaron Powell: I hate to give him credit, but
by Trevor.
Trevor Burrus: He doesn't want to say it,
I know. This is hilarious.
Aaron Powell: By my cohost, Trevor Burrus.
Trevor Burrus: You're welcome, world.
Aaron Powell: Yeah, so I was an undergraduate,
getting my English degree in Boulder, Colorado
and I took a class in science fiction literature.
Trevor was [00:40:30] in that class, conspicuously.
He was the guy who always had something to
say about everything.
Trevor Burrus: Guilty as charged.
Aaron Powell: Then, I think it was after the
final exam or something, I ended up at a diner
with you and my friend Nicole, who was also
in the class, and we chatted and Trevor and
I became friends. [00:41:00] That was when
he started introducing me to these ideas.
We would go a couple or few times a week to,
there was a Barnes & Noble in Boulder and
we would go in the evening instead of doing
homework.
Trevor Burrus: There's not much homework in
philosophy major English degree, I guess.
Aaron Powell: Yeah, but I'm sure there was
something I could have been doing.
Trevor Burrus: Probably.
Aaron Powell: We would go to Barnes & Noble
and we would ...
Trevor Burrus: You could have been studying
German.
Aaron Powell: I could have been.
Trevor Burrus: Mr. I took German three times.
Aaron Powell: Three times. Failed it twice.
Trevor Burrus: Yes.
Aaron Powell: Passed it on the third time.
[00:41:30] But we just would have conversations
and Trevor recommended readings and I was
kind of of the left at that time because as
an English major I was really into lit crit
and post-modern philosophy, which has a certain
political slant to it, although it's much
more interesting and nuanced and worthwhile
than people who only know the term [00:42:00]
'post-modernism' and hurl it around as an
epithet understand. I encourage you, if you
really hate post-modernism to actually read
some of it or at least read about it. It was
through those conversations and through reading
and through various discussions that I came
around.
Trevor Burrus: My perception is, I'm same.
[00:42:30] Aaron had blue hair.
Aaron Powell: I did.
Trevor Burrus: He was ...
Aaron Powell: Also it was green at one point.
Trevor Burrus: Green ...
Aaron Powell: Red at another point.
Trevor Burrus: Maybe red at one point.
Aaron Powell: Something purple once.
Trevor Burrus: With his Converse shoes.
Aaron Powell: I still have my Converse shoes.
Trevor Burrus: Yeah, you still have your converse
shoes. Yeah, we started ... I don't know,
well in Mark's class, that was the name of
the professor, there were videos. We would
go as a class to watch movies like Cat People
and Candyman and, what else did we watch?
Some other weird ones, [00:43:00] Eraserhead
or something like, maybe not Eraserhead but
we would have ...
Aaron Powell: Blade Runner.
Trevor Burrus: Blade Runner. We'd have social
...
Aaron Powell: Aliens.
Trevor Burrus: That helped the class socialize,
and I should remember, I don't remember the
first time we started talking. It might have
been, like our friend Nicole, I might have
met her first, but Aaron and Nicole were hanging
out before that so, yeah, there was a very,
very long conversation that went on for about
a year or so about the meaning of government
and the meaning of ... Most of it I would
say was about economics. I was a very different
libertarian at that time [00:43:30] than I
am now that ...
Aaron Powell: You were more socially conservative.
Trevor Burrus: I personally wasn't socially
conservative but a lot of my attitudes were
more on the socially conservative but I've
never been religious or any of those things,
but probably on war and some of those things
I was not as libertarian then. Mostly what
we talked about were economics, things like
what's wrong with minimum wage and what's
wrong with these kind of things. Some of the
books I gave him were Thomas Sowell, which
are a great sort of entry drug. Then [00:44:00]
after that we took two more classes together,
so we took three classes together total in
undergrad. We ran a website for a while and
then we went to law school together and then
Aaron graduated a year before me in law school
and then he got here and then I got here and
the rest is history.
Aaron Powell: Thank you for listening to our
200th episode of Free Thoughts and special
thanks to our producer, Tess Terrible, for
hosting. I also need to thank our other producer,
Evan Banks, who has been with us from [00:44:30]
the very beginning, and also to Tess' predecessor,
Mark McDaniel, who is now at Reason Magazine
and manned the recording booth for a couple
of years making sure that we got everything
down on tape the way it ought to be. Thank
you to Trevor [crosstalk 00:44:49].
Trevor Burrus: Always a pleasure. I think
we should do 200 more.
Aaron Powell: We should do 200 more. Thank
you to all of you for listening and we'll
see you next week.
