SPEAKER 1: Awesome.
Thank you all for joining us.
This talk is brought
on by Talktopia.
If you want to join us, head
over to go slash talktopia.
We are joined today
by Eric Barker.
He wrote this excellent
book that I've used
like 10,000 post-it notes on.
I probably killed
a lot of trees.
My apologies.
ERIC BARKER: It says less
about the quality of the book
and more about your OCD--
SPEAKER 1: Yeah, pretty much.
ERIC BARKER: --than
anything else.
SPEAKER 1: So the book's called
"Barking Up the Wrong Tree."
The book is about success,
common myths that we have,
and what things we can
make ourselves better.
So I wanted to start
with the first question--
after researching
this book on success,
what are things that
you found yourself
doing differently after it?
ERIC BARKER: Writing
the sixth chapter
was on work, life balance.
I had been working
so hard on the book
that I was literally
looking at this going,
I'm violating like every one
of the things I'm recommending.
I was not balanced.
So for me, that was
really critical was
to be able to sit
there and kind of say--
to take on a really
ambitious project.
And then I had to really
kind of algorithmically like
go through the things
I was talking about
and start to incorporate
them more myself.
Because I found myself
getting so intense about this
that my life really
stopped having balance.
SPEAKER 1: Right.
Now in the first
chapter you talked
about filtered and
unfiltered leaders.
Can you go into
that a little bit?
ERIC BARKER: Yeah.
This was really interesting.
This was work done by Gautam
Mukunda at Harvard Business
School.
I connected strongly with
it because I'd been writing
about research on leadership.
And I noticed this
total discrepancy
where half the
research was saying
that leaders are essential.
They're critical.
They pull people together.
They give people a mission and a
meaning and drive them forward.
And the other half was
saying that if you've
got a bunch of real A players,
they'll self-organize.
You don't need some
figureheads taking the credit.
And it was totally
a contradiction.
And I was scratching my head.
And then I came across
Gautam's research.
And what he saw was
that there are actually
two different kinds of leaders.
There's filtered leaders
and unfiltered leaders.
And basically, do leaders
make a difference?
Do they not?
Well, when you're talking
about filtered leaders,
you are talking
about people who are
going through a vetted system,
like in a typical hierarchical
corporation.
Those people are heavily vetted.
So by the time anybody is in
the running for CEO of GE,
they've been so thoroughly
vetted that they're
almost indistinguishable.
They would make the same
decisions as anybody else.
So their decisions
don't have huge impact.
Because if you pick one
person or the other,
it's the same thing.
Versus unfiltered
leaders-- so when
you're talking about
entrepreneurs, when you're
talking about if the
president steps down,
the vice president, who
was not chosen, comes up.
Those people are
less predictable.
They weren't filtered the
same way through the system.
So you can't expect them
to make the same decisions.
So they aren't predictable.
And they create big change.
Change is a value-neutral word.
Sometimes those changes are
bad, but sometimes you've
got unfiltered leaders,
like Abraham Lincoln, who
was a perfect storm that
resulted in him being elected.
He ended slavery.
So unfiltered leaders
create big changes.
Filtered leaders not so much.
But they each have their place.
When you need a company or
organization to keep going,
they're doing well,
prefer a filtered leader.
And if you need changes, you
want an unfiltered leader.
SPEAKER 1: And you
talk about ponds,
like finding the right
pond for a leader.
ERIC BARKER: What I
saw through looking
at all the research on success
and talking to actually Gautam
about this was that the
things that are really
critical in terms of
success in any arena
is first knowing yourself,
knowing your signature
strengths.
What are you good at?
What are you uniquely good at?
Because the more
time you spend--
this is research you see from
the University of Pennsylvania
in terms of when people exercise
their signature strengths,
they are happier,
they're more successful.
They feel more respected when
they do things they're good at.
And then aligning yourself--
picking the right pond.
In other words, what's
a place that respects
and values what you do?
Because you can be
great at something,
but if you're not
in a place that
really respects and
rewards that, you're going
have a tough time.
So it's aligning knowing thy
self, picking the right pond.
When those two are
in alignment, you're
in a really good position to be
successful in whatever you do.
SPEAKER 1: That ties into
knowing when to quit.
Can you go into that?
ERIC BARKER: Yeah.
That's something that's
really interesting.
Because grit is kind of having
its time in the sun now,
and everybody's talking
about being gritty.
And the truth is,
we all quit things.
We have to quit things.
Otherwise, I'd still be
playing with action figures
and playing t-ball.
We all quit things.
You need to move forward.
So it's more of an issue
of what do you quit?
When do you quit?
And there was some really
interesting research
by Gabriele Oettingen
at NYU, where
she talked about this funny
little word called "WOOP."
And it's an acronym for when the
issue-- you want to first wish,
then it's the issue of
what's the outcome you want,
the obstacle, and then the plan.
Those are four steps.
Because we all like to dream.
But the truth is research
shows when we dream we actually
sap our energy, because our
brains aren't good at telling
fiction from reality.
That's why movies are exciting.
So when we dream we
can actually sap energy
if we don't go to the next
step, which is first is wish.
Second is to really think,
what's the outcome you want?
What is the crystal clear
thing you want to achieve?
And then-- once you wish--
outcome, then you have to
think about the obstacle.
That's the tough part.
What's in the way?
What is stopping you from
getting what you want?
And then the fourth
part is a plan.
How are you going to
overcome that obstacle?
When people walk
through that then
you're really in
a good position.
That's what's called in academia
implementation intentions.
You're really in a good
position to move forward.
But the secondary effect
is really fascinating.
When people go through
this WOOP exercise,
if they feel energized,
if they feel better
about their goals, that
generally indicates,
the research shows,
that they're realistic.
That this is something
they could do.
And if they feel
de-energized, the goal
is probably unrealistic.
So using that WOOP exercise
can really help people
decide when to use
grit and when to quit.
Because they'll look at
their dreams, their wishes,
they walk through this.
They can see if they
have an adequate plan,
if that goal's reachable.
And then they can
make the decision
whether to quit on that
or to at least come up
with a different method
to try and get there.
SPEAKER 1: And it's
protection from people
who seem to be geared towards
more positive thinking.
Where it adds a little bit
of pessimism so they can--
ERIC BARKER: You always
have to think about,
what are the challenges?
Because otherwise, it stays
merely a dream versus saying,
what's in the way?
Why don't I have this?
And then you can start to create
an action plan to get there.
SPEAKER 1: Gotcha.
Can you talk about the student
who went to, I think it was,
Brown University or
Princeton and decided
I want to become the baddest
person in Kung Fu ever?
ERIC BARKER: This is Matt Polly.
Matt was at Princeton.
And he dropped out of
Princeton because he decided
he wanted to master Kung Fu.
And he moved to China.
He studied at the
Shaolin temple.
And it was crazy.
His parents went nuts.
He didn't fit in.
But this was a dream of his.
And at the end, he
realized he wasn't
going to be the baddest
man in the world.
So he quit his
dream at that point.
He realized he was
never going to be
the toughest guy on the planet.
But that crazy experience,
that chance he took
ended up launching
a writing career.
And now he's a very
successful author.
SPEAKER 1: Got you.
You had a quote in there--
trying to find it now--
like 10,000 post-it notes.
But it was about when he
went to the final bout
and he was seeing the master.
Do you remember that full quote?
ERIC BARKER: I'm not sure which
part you're talking about.
SPEAKER 1: He was with his
friend and his friend--
so it goes, they were studying
who the master is and wanted
to see the master fight.
So they saw the master fight.
And the master was
fighting someone,
and he literally almost
tore this guy's head off.
And he turns to his friend
and he's, well, you know--
ERIC BARKER: Well,
that was the guy that--
oh, the guy who was
leading the tournament.
This was the tournament
that Matt was fighting in.
And Matt's watching
the guy who he's
going to have to fight next.
And he sees this guy
destroy his opponent.
And they have to take the
opponent out on a stretcher.
And Matt's friend
tries to calm Matt
down and make him feel better.
And says, don't worry,
they will not take you out
on a stretcher.
Matt says, oh, that feels good.
He's like, yeah, you're too
tall for Chinese stretchers.
They'll just leave
you on the tarmac.
So he's like, this is
not a good situation.
SPEAKER 1: Oh, boy.
Can you talk about the
impact of networks?
Because some of us think if
we put our heads down and work
really, really hard and
are good that somehow
our work will sell
itself and it will be OK.
ERIC BARKER: The research
is pretty consistent.
Networks are really powerful.
Being connected makes
a big difference.
And I looked at a wide
range of research,
even extending out
to drug dealers.
Drug dealers with bigger
networks are more successful
and are less likely
to be incarcerated.
Networks matter
everywhere, in terms
of getting hired, in terms of--
there was even a study
done, I believe, at IBM
where employees
with bigger networks
actually ended up creating
more value for the company.
So basically, if you looked
at the individual employee
and you calculated
how many people they
had in their Rolodex,
their contact
list on their smartphone,
you can actually
quantify how much
more value that person
was worth to the company.
So networks, from top to
bottom, from getting hired,
getting promoted across
the board are valuable.
And so in the book, I go into
what the research shows can
help people increase the
size of their network
because it makes a difference.
SPEAKER 1: Got you.
Are there any quick
tips for either
promoting yourself or
building a network?
ERIC BARKER: Absolutely.
The simplest and easiest
thing, because networking,
it's kind of like a dirty word.
It like feels sleazy.
Like nobody likes it because
it feels very transactional.
And the simplest thing,
from the research,
that people can do to increase
the size of their network
is to reconnect
with old friends.
You have tons of people,
friends on Facebook,
in your smartphone, LinkedIn
contacts, who you just haven't
talked to in maybe years.
And reconnecting with
people, now it's not sleazy.
It's not scary.
You already know
these people, you're
already friends with them.
So reconnecting with people
is a really great way
to increase your network size.
And you don't have to have any
awkwardness or any sleaziness
because they're people
you already know.
A second thing that's
pretty simple is when--
I think this was
research by Brian Uzzi
and Sharon Dunlap-- was that
there are super connectors.
If you look through
your contact list,
you're going to find that
a disproportionate number
of people were introduced to
you by a handful of people.
We all have that one
friend who introduced us
to so many other friends.
Those people are your
super connectors.
So if you want to
build your network,
and you only have
limited time, you only
have limited resources,
then you want
to give a
disproportionate attention
to those super connectors.
And ask them, hey, I'm looking
for a new job, who should I
talk to?
Hey, I'm looking
to make new friends
in a new city I move to.
Who should I talk to?
Those super connectors
are the hubs of networks.
And that's where
you're going to get
the most bang for your buck.
SPEAKER 1: You mentioned
a guy named Panda.
His nickname is Panda.
ERIC BARKER: Yeah.
Adam Rifkin.
"Fortune" magazine,
I think it was 2012,
called him the most networked
guy in Silicon Valley.
Adam Rifkin, who's a great
guy, is a shy introvert.
But he is great at
connecting people,
and he's a really,
really nice guy.
He just believes in--
one of the tips that comes from
Adam is the five minute favor.
Where he just thinks,
what can I do for somebody
to help them out
that will only take
like five minutes of my time?
Whether it's offering them a
resource, linked to something
they might be interested
in, or connecting two people
who are in the same arena.
Just doing little things
like that because he
has a gargantuan network.
And you'd think that that would
take an enormous amount of time
to maintain.
But it's actually
relatively simple
when he's thinking about
just little things he can
do to provide value to others.
And it's created this
enormous incredible network.
SPEAKER 1: And I
think when people
are starting their network, a
lot of it is the fear failure.
They have to say
the right thing,
the right person
to impress them.
And then if they mess
up in the connection,
then they have this
negative self-talk.
So you were talking
about the importance
of positive self-talk and the
correlation between success
rates and BUD/S
Navy SEAL training.
Can you go into that?
ERIC BARKER: We all say
approximately 300 to 1,000
words to ourselves every minute.
And those can be positive.
Those can be negative.
Now, we're not getting
into the secret
here, where it's
like what you say
to yourself is going
to magically create
money, or success, or whatever.
But, in terms of the
things you say to yourself,
the Navy, basically
after 9/11, the Navy
wanted to increase the
number of Navy SEALs.
But if you reduce the threshold
for the difficulty of BUD/S,
the vetting program, then the
SEALs aren't going to be good.
So they were
thinking, how can we
help people get through it
without lowering standards?
And one of the four
things that they realized
was positive self-talk.
Because that story
you're telling yourself
in your head becomes a
self-fulfilling prophecy.
And there's tons of
research, much of it
done by Martin Seligman, in
terms of the power of optimism.
Where just when we
believe we can, it makes
sense to continue.
It's pretty intuitive.
When you feel like things
aren't going to work out,
why would you persist?
When you think things are
going to work out then
it makes sense.
So when your
self-talk is positive,
when you see positive things
in your life as personal,
you're responsible for
them, they're permanent,
they're going to keep on going.
And that they are
pervasive-- they're
affecting a big
area of your life.
You're more likely to persist.
You're more likely to go on.
And that was one
of the key things
that helped recruits get
through Navy SEAL training.
SPEAKER 1: Gotcha.
And didn't you also talk
about the importance
of that positive self-talk
for your own mental health
and well-being?
Because I think one
thing I hear about is
people want to network,
but they always say,
well, I have no value to give.
Why should I be doing this?
But then if you look
at Oprah, for instance,
she's born in a single family,
single parent household,
came from poverty.
But she always looked
at herself differently,
which allowed her
to get over this.
ERIC BARKER: There's a
strong connection, again,
that same research between
resilience and grit
and optimism.
Is that people who have
that positive self-talk that
say that good things
are personal, permanent,
and pervasive.
And the bad things are not
personal, permanent and
pervasive.
They are more likely to
persist, to show resilience
in the face of difficulty
and to keep going.
So if you're trying to achieve
a goal, whatever it is,
having that perspective
will be will
be beneficial in terms
of keeping going.
SPEAKER 1: And then there's
some people who are so confident
they kind of create like
self-delusion about--
ERIC BARKER:
Confidence is tricky,
because the whole confidence
paradigm is very tricky.
Because confidence, as a whole,
the benefits of confidence
are that it feels good,
feels good to be powerful.
It has enormous
influence on others.
There's research showing that
people will choose confidence
over expertise.
They will actually
choose a person
who is more confident
with a worse track
record than the person with
a better track record who
comes across as less confident.
But confidence can also lead to
hubris, narcissism, delusion.
And lower confidence
helps us learn.
We're open to new ideas.
But it doesn't feel good,
and it doesn't create
a good impression on others.
So what you see is that
the whole confidence
paradigm is kind of tricky.
Because confidence is
often either delusional or
contingent.
It's delusional because
we tell ourselves
these outsized lies
about who we are.
And eventually, there's going
to be a market correction.
Reality is going to
hit you in the face
and show you where
you really stand.
So it can be delusional
or can be contingent.
Where, basically, you
wake up feeling like I
need to slay a dragon every day
in order to have self-worth.
And you're on this
treadmill of I
have to keep performing in
order to have self-esteem.
SPEAKER 1: So you're
never really happy?
ERIC BARKER: Yeah.
And so you're on this
roller coaster of emotions
where how you do in
life is constantly
affecting how you feel.
And the anxiety of
knowing everything you do
is going to affect how
you feel about yourself.
As opposed to taking, as
I talk about in the book,
the perspective
self-compassion, which
originally comes from Buddhism.
But now, Kristin Neff,
at University of Texas,
has been showing that the
self-compassion of attitude,
taking a realistic view--
but rather than having an
unrealistic view of how awesome
I am, taking the view that I'm
going to see the world the way
it is and I'm going to forgive
myself when I screw up.
The research basically
shows that that perspective
gives all the benefits
of self-confidence
without the downsides of
narcissism, or hubris,
or seeing the world
in an unrealistic way.
SPEAKER 1: True.
It keeps you grounded.
You talked about the ghost army.
Can you go into that and
how it plays into the book?
ERIC BARKER: Yeah.
Basically, in
World War II, there
was a whole unit that was
dedicated toward deception.
Where, basically,
their goal was--
you're talking about less than
1,000 men whose job it was to--
these were artists and
guys who might not have fit
in other areas of the military.
And their job was to be less
than 1,000 men who appeared
to be 10,000 or more soldiers.
So they could
actually fill in gaps
in the line in World War II.
And there was a unit that had
huge speakers that would play
the sounds of tanks coming.
They had 95-pound
inflatable tanks,
which occasionally
they'd use a rope
to keep the barrel of the tank
up because it would deflate.
But from the sky, enemy
planes, recon planes
would see what looks like
tanks from a quarter mile away.
They'd hear the sound of tanks.
And they even had
radio operators
who would be making fake
signals to sound like there
was a huge division there.
And I talk about
this in the context
of when we are presenting
ourselves to others--
is it good to try and deceive?
This was effective
in World War II.
But deceiving others
as to who you are
can be an effective
short-term strategy,
but it's usually not a very
effective long-term strategy.
SPEAKER 1: Especially if people
can read that this person is
not the real deal.
ERIC BARKER: Eventually,
you develop a reputation.
Eventually, people
do see who you are.
And in terms of the
issue of ethics--
so in the book, when
I talk about when
nice guys finish last.
That whole idea-- often
it's split into the issue
of short term versus long term.
And a lot of
negative, bad traits
are very effective
in the short term,
but they're not effective
in the long term.
So if you look at
narcissists, narcissists
do better in job interviews,
they do better on first dates.
But what you see is after
a few weeks on the job,
narcissists are regarded
as untrustworthy.
After a few months, the
relationship partners
of narcissists report being
enormously dissatisfied.
It works very well up front,
not so well in the long term.
And across the
board, you see this
with a lot of negative traits.
Short-term effectiveness,
long term not so much.
If you're a used car dealer,
it might be a fantastic choice.
But if you're working
in an organization
that you plan on being for a
number of years, probably not
a good idea.
SPEAKER 1: And going
back to World War II,
I was thinking about
unfiltered, filtered leaders.
Where would you
put Patton in that?
ERIC BARKER: I don't know
enough about my history
to talk about Patton.
Sorry.
SPEAKER 1: Gotcha.
And I was thinking,
I was going to say
unfiltered because just the
way that he talked to people.
And his troops respected him
but the upper brass hated him.
And the German generals
used to call him that cowboy
American general who was crazy.
But he seemed to be
that perfect general
we needed for that
situation, which was wartime.
But then once the
peace happened,
it's like, where do you
put that unfiltered person
in a filtered organization
that's so top down,
like the military?
ERIC BARKER: One
thing that you see
that is critical
in terms of success
is the issue of people
usually discount context.
People's first reaction
is, I'm successful,
I've been successful, I will
continue to be successful.
And that's rarely the case.
If you look at research
by Boris Groysberg,
at Harvard Business
School, you see
that when top stock market
analysts would leave one firm
and go to another firm, they
wouldn't stay top stock market
analysts.
But if they brought
their team with them,
they usually stayed at
that high performing level.
Because again,
that context, that
shorthand that we develop with
others, that understanding,
that's really critical.
And that's when I
talk about the idea
of knowing yourself but then
also picking the right pond.
That issue of your
skill set is great.
But you can be the greatest
guitarist in the world--
if you work at an
accounting firm,
that's not very valuable there.
So it's the skills you have,
and it's where are they?
Are those valuable
and respected there?
And it's aligning those two.
So people have to
think about context.
The other element
of context is when
you're talking about
the issue of ethics.
Where peer pressure influences
all of us not just teenagers.
So if you're going
to a company--
Bob Sutton, who's a
professor at Stanford,
when I talked to him he had a
great quote that I loved where
he said, whenever you
interview at a company,
look around at the
people who work there.
Because you're going
to become like them,
they're not going
to become like you.
And if that's not lined up, if
that's not who you want to be,
then you better really
make another choice.
SPEAKER 1: It's true.
Now there's timing
time to context, too.
If you're a wonder kid--
could be possibly a
great software engineer,
but you were born in
the 1940s or '30s.
ERIC BARKER: I think
Malcolm Gladwell talked
about that in "Outliers,"
is that issue of timing.
And also, where is
the organization
you're looking at working for?
They might need something
different at a different time.
If a company is doing
fantastic, again, they
might need a filtered leader to
just keep it stable and steady.
If you're in an
industry in decline,
what they're doing currently
obviously is not working.
So they need to mix it up.
They need an unfiltered leader.
Because if you're headed
towards the ground anyway,
you might as well take
a change, take a risk,
and be able to pull out of
it versus just continuing
what isn't working.
SPEAKER 1: Gotcha.
You mentioned a person
in San Francisco
called the Emperor Norton,
the defender of Mexico.
I've never heard of
this person ever before.
Can you talk about
that a little bit?
ERIC BARKER: This was a guy in
San Francisco who became San
Francisco's unofficial mascot.
Where he basically said that he
was the Emperor of the United
States.
And the people of San Francisco
at the time bought into it.
And he would just walk
around, kind of declared.
The police all sort of
doffed their hats to him.
He would get free
meals at restaurants.
And he just was extremely
confident in there
but utterly deluded.
And I use that
story to illustrate
the issue of confidence.
We talk about confidence
like it's this panacea.
You got to have confidence.
You can't be lack of confidence.
And there are downsides
to confidence.
When you take confidence
out to the extreme,
it can be delusional.
It can lead to
narcissism or hubris.
You know confidence isn't
the answer to everything.
And I use that to illustrate
when confidence goes too far.
SPEAKER 1: And didn't he
write letters to Congress
saying I'm disbanding Congress?
ERIC BARKER: He made decrees.
He made decrees.
Some of which actually
worked out well.
He was way ahead in
terms of diversity.
And he said there
should be a Bay Bridge
before there was a Bay Bridge.
And he had he had some really
good ideas, some of which
eventually got enacted.
SPEAKER 1: I guess there
was a race riot happening
in San Francisco between
the white populace
and the Chinese-Americans.
He got in between it and
talked everyone down.
ERIC BARKER: He was
involved in a lot,
although he didn't have
any real authority, some
of his predictions came true.
SPEAKER 1: Fantastic.
I'm going to go to some
audience questions now.
Nassim Taleb wrote,
success isn't being on top
of a hierarchy.
It's standing outside
of all hierarchies.
Given the focus on
promotion within
many corporate
environments, how do you
feel about this viewpoint?
ERIC BARKER: I think it
depends on personal goals.
I think most people are going to
work inside of an organization.
And it depends on what are
your skills, if your skills are
drawing people together.
We're seeing increasingly people
are able to work on their own.
They're able to do
their own thing.
But most people are going
to work for organizations.
And so I don't think
that's the only way.
SPEAKER 1: Gotcha.
Can talk about Tim
Kreider's stabaversary.
ERIC BARKER: Yeah.
Tim Kreider, a
cartoonist, and when
he was on vacation in Greece
he was actually stabbed
in the neck and almost died.
He described it as there's
a difference of about one
millimeter between him
going home in coach
and him going home
in the cargo hold.
And the thing was, when he
came home, for the next year,
he was basically incapable
of being sad or disappointed
because he was just so
thrilled to be alive.
He was so happy
because everything was
compared to I could be dead.
But after a year, things
started to frustrate him again.
He started to get sad again.
You can't sustain that forever.
So he started celebrating
his stabaversary,
the day when he got stabbed,
to kind of remind him, hey, I'm
lucky to be here.
Hey, this is really great
that I have any opportunity.
Bad things are going to happen.
I'm not going to be thrilled
about them all the time.
But I'm lucky to be here at all.
And that's something
we can all learn
from in terms of happiness.
SPEAKER 1: That's
a really good idea.
Hopefully, not to get
stabbed to do that.
ERIC BARKER: No.
You could skip that part.
SPEAKER 1: So how do we go
about finding the right ponds?
I think a lot of
introspection, or you
need to go out there
and get experience.
What would be the best way?
ERIC BARKER: The best
thing, first and foremost,
is to let other people
do the work for you.
Hey, going out there, we
can each only do so much.
But you can read online
and then pass that.
You can talk to people.
But first, getting
to know yourself,
getting to know your
signature strengths.
It's like, what am I
consistently good at?
And the research
shows a good way
to go about that is actually
to ask people around you.
Because when people ask
themselves, what am I good at?
They're actually
quite bad at it.
People are not
always good at that.
But when you ask your friends,
when you ask your coworkers,
preferably, if you
could do it anonymously,
if you can have them
kind of submit to it.
Have a friend filter them
for you so it's anonymous.
You can get some much
more objective feedback.
And it turns out
that people around us
often know our strengths and our
weaknesses better than we do.
And then something that
Gautam Mukunda talks
about called intensifiers,
which are qualities that,
at the mean, are not
necessarily positive,
but in the right context can be.
So in other words, you might
be somebody who's stubborn.
Well, in interpersonal
relationships,
stubbornness is a negative.
If you're an entrepreneur,
stubbornness is persistence.
So those qualities are
dependent on context.
Knowing what your
signature strengths
are, knowing what your
intensifiers are--
if you don't have that,
then looking at environments
isn't going to be very helpful.
You need to say,
what am I good at?
What am I bad at?
And what qualities do I have
that, dependent on context,
might be positives or negatives?
And then you can start
to look at what interests
you, what is aligned
with your skill set.
You can do a lot
of research online.
But in the end, you
want to get to a point
where you're talking to people.
Because in the end,
it's going to be
hard to get an honest
answer about the culture
of an organization.
Going back to that
Bob Sutton quote on
"you're going to become
like those people,
they're not going
to become like you."
You need to talk to people
who have worked there,
who are working there to
get an idea of if that's
going to be a good fit, if
that is the right pond for you.
SPEAKER 1: What I usually
tell new college grads is
when you are looking to
learn about a new career is
to go talk to someone
who is working at NASA.
What are the three best
things about this job?
And then what are the three
things that need improvement
and that you don't like?
So you can kind of hear
an even keeled take
on what's going on
in the organization.
I have Glenn Gould in here.
So can you tell us
about Glenn Gould?
ERIC BARKER: Yeah.
Glenn Gould was considered
one of the greatest
pianists of the 20th century.
But he's a very strange
guy, a very, very odd guy.
And had a lot of crazy quirks.
He would always wear gloves,
sometimes multiple pairs
at the same time.
He had this crazy chair that he
used at every performance that
was like sloped and low.
You can actually
hear it creaking
on the recordings of it.
But this was a guy who
was so odd and so strange,
but there's so many environments
he never would have fit in.
He never would have been fine.
But finding his thing,
playing the piano,
and finding the
right environment,
he's achieved the
highest level that you
can in terms of celebrity.
He was mentioned
in "The Simpsons."
So that's it.
That's the highest level.
He's done that.
He's considered one of the
greatest pianists ever.
But he's this oddball.
But he found the right
environment for him.
And that's what makes
all the difference.
A lot of people have
a lot of skills.
But if it's not aligned,
it's not going to work.
SPEAKER 1: One thing
I see a lot is people
who are just fantastic
in their line of work,
but they want to
try something new.
But they're afraid of getting
started, because it's not
going to be perfect.
And I think in
your book you talk
about it's more about the
quantity of production,
less about just producing
one great thing.
Can you talk more about that?
ERIC BARKER: You
see across the board
that very often quantity
produces quality.
The research on
patent applications--
the people who submit
more patent applications
end up getting more patents.
When you look at
scientific research,
the researchers who
produce the most papers
usually end up with the
handful that are great.
So people who are
more prolific--
ceteris paribus-- people
who are more prolific
end up producing
more great stuff.
So you have to take chances.
You have to give
things a shot and just
do more to get out there.
Sometimes there's
a cost to that.
But if there isn't, if you
can just put in the hours,
more work.
And that, of course, leads to
the work-life balance problem,
where doing more
does produce results.
So you have to
know when to stop.
Because-- ceteris paribus--
more work, more results.
You also want to have a
personal life as well.
SPEAKER 1: How do you find
that balance yourself?
ERIC BARKER: That's one
that I struggle with.
But in the end, as I
talk about in the book,
the issue is, in the
modern era, we talk
about work-life balance a lot.
Nobody did 40, 50 years ago.
And that's because
the world has changed.
Because now you have your
smartphone in your pocket 24/7.
You can't say, oh, I left
those papers at the office.
I'll get them for you
tomorrow at 9:00 AM.
No, they're available
currently in the cloud.
You can check your
email wherever you go.
You always have
the option to work.
Before, the doors of the
office closed at 5:00 PM.
Now they don't.
So basically, the onus
has shifted to us where
we need to make a decision.
And that's what's critical.
So for everyone, the
idea of this go, go, go,
success as determined
outside yourself
is going to be
inherently problematic.
You need a personal
definition of success,
where you're saying, I'm
going to work this hard.
And if that means I
don't get the promotion,
I'm OK with that.
Or I want that
promotion, and if that
means I spend less time with
my family, I'm OK with that.
But the decision has to be
based on a personal definition
of success.
What you want.
Because the world is not
going to decide for you.
The world is going
to say, keep going,
keep going until you drop.
SPEAKER 1: And this
goes into your point
of choosing your problems.
ERIC BARKER: Yeah.
It's choosing the
problems you want to have,
where it's am I more
comfortable sacrificing
a bit of my social life?
Am I more comfortable not
getting that promotion at work?
But the research that was done--
I think it was Stevenson
and Nash at Harvard
did some research.
And the people who
had gotten closest
to some approximation
of work-life balance
had four metrics that
they value their life by.
And that was happiness,
achievement, significance,
and legacy.
Because the problem that
most people do is they
use a single metric.
And often that single
metric is money.
Because it's a number,
and it's made easy.
Make that go up.
But then you end up
sacrificing happiness, health,
relationships, all
these other things.
So you need this
balance of the four.
Happiness-- do you
enjoy what you're doing?
Achievement-- are you
getting ahead in your goals?
Significance-- is what you're
doing positively affecting
those around you that you love?
And legacy-- to some degree, are
you making the world a better
place?
And people who, if you look
at your schedule and you say,
I'm making a little deposit in
each one of those four buckets
every week, every
month, that's where
people start to find a balance.
Because the problem is when they
use that collapsing one metric,
you miss stuff.
Or if people try and use
a sequencing strategy,
where when I'm this I'm just
going to focus on my career.
And then I'm just
going to focus on that.
And life doesn't
work out like that.
It's like relationships.
You can't ignore your kids
for the first 10 years
and then make up for it.
That doesn't work.
So people need to balance
happiness, achievement,
significance, and legacy.
SPEAKER 1: It's nice
having those four metrics,
because you can see
when you're putting too
much time in a certain bucket.
ERIC BARKER: Yeah.
This one's getting way
too much on happiness,
and you just got fired.
Or way too much of
achievement and you're
really kind of miserable.
Or you're working hard.
You might be happy, but is that
benefiting those around you?
There are things we need to
try and find a balance for.
Each person's balance is
going to be different.
But over time, you can start
to see what works for you.
SPEAKER 1: I had a mentor who
marched with Dr. Martin Luther
King when he was little.
And then he got into
IBM, and his mentor
was African-American.
He's African-American.
And his mentor had a door closed
on him because he's black.
And he talked to my
mentor and told him
what to do to pursue his
career and go forward.
But my mentor focused so much
just on that career metric
that so long as this
company was happy with him
everything is OK.
But then when you come home,
the family is not there,
and he's missed out on some
of the most important life
experiences just because
he's focused on one thing.
So it's very easy to focus
on something external
because it's easily definable.
But trying to define what an
ideal inner balance or family
life is is a little bit more
subject to interpretation.
ERIC BARKER: Oh, no.
In the book I tell the
story of Ted Williams,
one of the greatest baseball
players of all time.
He was just so
focused on hitting,
so focused on
success in baseball,
that he wasn't present for
the birth of any of his three
children.
When his daughter asked him,
dad, tell me about yourself,
he said, read my biography.
And he realized he
just wasn't there.
And he wasn't very happy.
And he got divorced three times.
And he paid huge
prices for his success.
And I think that's
something that at first it
seems like he would be this
great legendary baseball
player at Cooperstown.
But in the end, is
that going to lead
to a happy, well-rounded life?
Consistently you see that
many, many high achievers
make a Faustian bargain of
sorts, where they completely
sacrifice their personal
life and personal happiness
for success.
And again, if more work
produces more results,
then you have to
make the choice.
Where am I going to stop?
Because it won't
be decided for you.
SPEAKER 1: It's so
hard to get out on top.
So many people want to
continually ride that high
and relive their past dreams.
And then once you get that
Super Bowl championship,
or what you're looking
for it's like, OK,
that's another thing off
the list I cross out.
But now it has not much
meaning in the present
or in the future.
ERIC BARKER: No.
So it's critical to have
that personal definition,
where this is enough for me.
SPEAKER 1: We have a question.
Ellen asks, you
mention in your book
that overconfidence can
be incredibly damaging
to an organization.
What are some
tactics to recognize
this in ourselves and ways
to change it if it's present?
ERIC BARKER: The issue
of overconfidence
is really critical.
I think Malcolm Gladwell
talked about this in a lecture
he gave.
Underconfidence is the
sins of the amateur.
Overconfidence is the
sin of the expert.
So the real danger comes
from overconfidence,
because we trust experts
with a lot of power.
So overconfidence is what
produces a housing crisis
or a stock market
collapse, because it's
the people who have the
authority, who have the power.
That's what they usually
make the mistake of.
One of the best things
in terms of limiting
that on a personal basis is--
A, making sure you
have people around you
that you're still listening to.
Even Machiavelli, who is not
lauded very highly in ethics
circles, said that
a great leader
has to have people around him
who will be honest with him,
who he can trust.
Because otherwise you're
going to spin out of control.
You need people who
will be honest with you.
But past that,
something you can do--
Peter Drucker, one of
the leading management
experts of the
20th century, he'll
talk about the
feedback analysis.
Where basically when
you're making predictions,
write them down when
you're trying things.
And then see how effective
your predictions were.
See when you say this
project is going to go well--
I'm not sure about this one.
And then you can start to
get an idea over time--
how accurate am I?
Because that's the problem
with too much confidence
is the issue of delusion,
where you're not
in touch with reality anymore.
As I mentioned in the
book, the old saying,
there's no such thing as a
pretty good alligator wrestler.
You are or you aren't.
And that's where
overconfidence gets you killed.
But there's usually not such
an obvious corrective mechanism
as there is in alligator
wrestling in day-to-day life.
SPEAKER 1: I like that idea
of tracking your thoughts.
So here's a challenge
to the audience.
Any time you're going into a
situation where it's ambiguous,
you don't know what's going to
happen, open up a spreadsheet
and write what you think
is going to happen.
Or write in the situation what
you think is going to happen.
And after the situation
happens, write down
exactly what happened.
And then go back to that list.
And you can kind of
see where your thoughts
are gearing towards.
So my thoughts
sometimes would gear
towards more pessimism
for certain meetings,
or more optimism
at other meetings.
And then when you get back
in the situation of being
ambiguous, you can
go, oh, wait a minute,
my mind tends to go
in this default mode.
Maybe there's something
else I'm missing here.
So that you can catch yourself
when you get yourself locked
in those thought patterns.
ERIC BARKER: And
you'll be shocked
to see how much you
rewrite history.
When you go back and see what
you wrote you'll be like,
that's not the story
I've been telling myself.
Memory is not this perfect hard
drive recording everything.
It's constantly being rewritten.
And you will be shocked
at what you wrote then
and what you believe now.
So it's actually a
really useful exercise.
SPEAKER 1: I had my
old journals from 2008.
And I was reading them.
I'm like, I don't
know who the hell
this guy is but I hate him.
Compared to then, I was
reading the current ones.
Like, oh, that's me.
But to see your thoughts evolved
over time, you're like, OK,
you can see the improvement
in what you're skewed towards.
So I have someone asking, how
to be a super connector myself?
How can someone go about
becoming a super connector?
ERIC BARKER: The
critical thing there is--
I think it was Ben Casnocha
had some really good advice.
Basically is budgeting time
and money for networking
is taking an amount of time.
Because if you say
I'm going to devote
this many hours
towards it, make it
a skill, something you
practice like anything else.
I am always going to be
looking for introductions.
And I am going to
designate this many hours.
Every Sunday lunch is going
to be with somebody new.
And I am going to
put aside x amount
of money for Sunday lunch.
Or how many coffees?
I am going to have a coffee or
drinks with somebody two nights
a week.
Budget it, make it a
part of your schedule,
and start to put that together.
And then past that,
it's always a matter
of every time you
meet somebody see
who they can introduce you to.
Who else should I talk to?
Who else should I meet?
And then to create a more
powerful network all around
is start mixing and matching.
Start introducing new people
you've met to the people
you knew before.
And the opportunities will
start to multiply like a fission
reactor.
It's just going to
start to expand.
But the first critical thing
is just like anything else--
give it dedicated
time, dedicated budget,
and be consistent.
SPEAKER 1: Makes sense.
And there's two other
points you had too.
One was saying thank you
and having that gratitude.
Because the gratitude,
we look at it
as one way of making
someone else feel better.
But then, I think, some of the
studies you had in the book
said that there's always
biological benefits
to the person saying thanks.
ERIC BARKER: Gratitude
works both ways.
The best thing about--
when I'm talking
about happiness,
what's great about gratitude
is it makes two people happy.
Thanking someone else
makes them feel good.
But also, taking the time
to be grateful for things
keeps that top of mind.
What is most advertising
trying to do?
They're trying to make their
products or their company
top of mind.
That's why you see so
many ads over and over
and over again just so that
when you think of soda,
you think of Pepsi
or you think of Coke.
They want to stay top of mind.
Well, one of the most powerful
and replicated happiness
studies is writing
down three good things
that happened to you that day
before you go to bed at night.
Why?
Because it makes them
more top of mind.
Tons of good things
happen to you every day.
Tons of bad things
happen to you every day.
So you can only
focus on so much.
You only have so much
bandwidth in your head.
So what's going
to be top of mind?
What are you going
to remember that day?
What are you going to
remember from that day?
And if you take the time
with those three things,
you're going to be happier.
So gratitude, Shawn Achor,
one thing he recommends,
is the first thing
you do when you
get in the office
every day is just
sit down and write
a thank you email
or send a thank you
text to someone else.
It'll make them feel good.
It'll make you feel good.
And how you feel in the
morning, the research shows,
affects the rest of your day.
It's a very simple
happiness exercise
and critical for
connecting with people.
Showing them that they
are valuable to you.
SPEAKER 1: I have a calendar
reminder for every Friday
to send out a thank
you to somebody.
ERIC BARKER: Absolutely.
SPEAKER 1: And another
point you brought up
is doing your homework.
After someone gives
you an assignment
for connecting with
them, actually coming
back full circle
and saying, hey, you
told me to do this and whatnot.
ERIC BARKER: Following up.
That's critical with mentors.
Because there's nothing that's
going to irritate mentors
more than when they
give you good advice
and you don't actually
follow through with it.
So listening to
what a mentor says,
it also allows you to stay
in touch with the mentor.
Because if the mentor is
actually really valuable,
they're probably
going to be busy.
You hope they're
going to be busy.
They've got a lot
of stuff going on.
So they give you advice,
you go, you follow through
on the advice.
You get the result,
you come back.
Now you can say, hey, I
followed through on your advice,
here are the results.
I'm thinking about
what I should do next.
I've put some thought into it.
Here's two possibilities.
If you have a chance,
I'd love to hear
what you think would be a
best and next step for me.
That's a great way to
keep a relationship
with a mentor going.
And it's flattering to them that
somebody is taking their advice
and actually following
through with it.
It sounds simple.
It sounds stupid.
But the truth is so
many people just don't.
They'll bother a busy
person, ask him a question,
and then not do it.
If you did and you document
it, you got positive results.
And then you're asking their
advice, that's the thing.
And if you're somebody
who does their homework--
So many people, so many
busy, successful people,
it's like they get people
clamoring for their time,
but they don't follow through.
Those people didn't
do their homework.
You don't need to ask
the head-- if you're
looking for
investment advice, you
don't need to contact
the CEO of Goldman Sachs.
There's easier ways to do it.
So you want to make sure you're
asking the right questions.
Did you do your homework?
Is this the person you have
to talk to to get the answer?
If you've done that much work,
you're going to impress people.
You're going to stand out
above the other 99.9% of people
who reach out to them.
So following through,
doing your homework,
it really makes
a difference when
you're trying to
make relationships
with potential mentors.
SPEAKER 1: And then,
also, these people
have busy family lives
with their careers.
If someone comes up
to you and says, hey,
can you be my mentor?
Well, I'm thinking of a
terribly long time commitment
that person does not have.
So I always looked
at it as friendships.
It's like maybe I can
research as much as
possible of this
person on the internet
without being a stalker.
But going on their
blog, learning.
And then if I have a question
that can't be answered,
make sure it's something that
can be answered within five
minutes and doesn't require them
to write their life story out.
ERIC BARKER: No.
And what you see
in the research is
that the best
mentor relationships
become like friendships.
But asking that, will
you be my mentor?
It's kind of like
asking somebody
to marry you on the first date.
That's a huge
commitment to somebody
who just emailed me and
asked me a question.
And they had like six
spelling errors in the email.
Versus asking questions,
showing you did the work,
showing that you're
somebody who's smart,
and showing them that
they are the right person
to ask that question to.
But there is no other way.
I want to be this level of Jedi.
I got to talk to Yoda.
They're the perfect
person for this.
That's respectful.
You're respecting their time.
You are not putting
all the effort on them.
This is not something that can
be answered with one Google
search.
It's like this is something
that shows them that you
are an A player like they are.
You're trying to get
to the next level,
and they are the right
person to talk to.
And that's how you
get a good mentor.
SPEAKER 1: That's true.
And then, also,
the introductions,
the double opt-in introduction.
First, I would go to Eric.
Because, let's say, I want
Eric to talk to Brian.
And then Brian's good for Eric.
First, I'll go to Eric, ask if
he's OK with the introduction.
Then I'll go back to
Brian, explain to him
why it's beneficial
to meet Eric.
And if he agrees, I'll
introduce them both.
Because I'm sure you get
a lot of introductions
where it's like--
ERIC BARKER: Hey, here's
somebody you really
have no interest in talking to.
Why don't you guys chat?
No.
How about we don't.
SPEAKER 1: So for my last online
question, this is from Lisa.
She says, there's a lot of
information in your book
and a lot of information
to learn and retain
to day-to-day life.
In your opinion, how should
we retain all this information
and how much of it?
ERIC BARKER: I don't
think that everybody needs
to learn everything in there.
I think there's areas
we're they're strong.
There's areas
where they're weak.
Some people might be
in a great situation
in terms of the nice
guys finish last issue.
They might be
surrounded by other--
in Adam Grant's
terminology, they
might be surrounded
about other givers.
Might be a good place.
That might not be something
they're worried about.
But they might
have a big problem
with the work-life
balance issue.
Or somebody might be
really great at networking,
but they might have a
real confidence issue.
Focus on the stuff that is going
to benefit them individually.
Like what goals do you have?
What serves those goals?
Don't try and do everything.
Pick one thing, get that
right, and then move on
to what is of
secondary interest.
So there's no need
to exhaustively go
through every piece
of advice in there.
SPEAKER 1: Excellent.
Do we have you
in-audience questions?
We're going to get
you a mic real quick.
AUDIENCE: I also wrote a book
on the science of success.
And I was completely
shocked, because I
had read hundreds
of books talking
about positive mental attitude,
mostly written by armchair
plagiarists quoting
each other, and doing
a lot of scientific research.
But the scientific
research was always
with slightly above
average people.
Because you can't go out and
get the number one in the world.
It's really hard.
Say, hey, I'm going to follow
you around with videotape.
But I did that.
And I was blown away
that in sales, at least,
the number one in corporate
jets and the number one life
insurance sales
person in the world
were the most negative people
I've ever met in my life.
They beat up on
themselves verbally.
And then I contrasted that with
homeless people, who would say,
I'm happy, I'm always happy.
I'm living in this cardboard
box, but I'm happy.
So I was completely shocked
because this defied everything
I've been reading everywhere.
And I was expecting
to hear more of that
here, because you said
that everything that's
contrary to what you
normally hear in science.
And so what these
people would do--
and they're number
one in their field.
One of them is number
one in life insurance.
He'd sell $4.5 million
selling two days a week.
So he'd meet the Million Dollar
Round Table every two days.
Credible, worldwide number one.
He would beat up on
himself verbally.
He would tell himself
negative things.
I'm doing terrible today.
I need to push myself harder.
Harvey, you did a terrible job.
Why are you doing this?
And he'd beat up on him so.
So it was completely the
opposite of everything
I ever heard in all of
the literature out there.
But these were the number
one people in their field.
Any comments?
ERIC BARKER: There are
exceptions to every rule.
There are exceptions
to every rule.
AUDIENCE: Here's
another question.
How many of the success
books out there actually are
able to get the number
one person in the world
and follow them around with
cameras, and videotape, et
cetera?
Scientific studies, if you
look at them, other than Xerox
professional selling
skills, which
studied slightly above average
people, but not the very best.
None of them, at least
in the field of sales,
had actually gone out and
followed around number one
people.
None of them because
they can't get them.
They're impossible.
So I think a lot of what is
reported in success literature
is the average people or
the slightly above average.
And it's a lot of researchers
quoting each other and others'
research.
And quoting and doing
research of groups
that are below average,
or medium, or mediocre,
but not the very best.
How many actually go out and
study number one in the world?
ERIC BARKER: There are
a number of studies
that looked at some of the
top people in the world.
But it depends
specifically on what's
your question in terms of
their attitude, in terms of--
again, there's success.
There's also happiness.
Those can be very different.
And attitudes do vary
based on profession.
So being optimistic produces
persistence, produces grit.
That doesn't necessarily
mean-- again,
if it's in an industry
that is doomed,
persistence is not going
to result in success.
So I think it has to be
very specific on what
you are studying.
If you look at attorneys,
attorneys usually
score far higher on
pessimism and negativity
than most other people.
It is because it is a
beneficial quality in law.
Because you need, when
you're doing a contract,
to consider everything that
could go wrong and make sure
your client is covered for that.
So pessimism is a benefit.
And if you score
higher in pessimism,
you score higher on the
LSAT across the board.
So entrepreneurs,
as well, negativity
can be a benefit in the sense--
AUDIENCE: Otherwise you
don't push yourself.
ERIC BARKER: Yeah.
So the qualities vary in
terms of what the role is.
But also, you also have be
very specific about what
you're looking for.
Are you talking
about persistence?
Or are you talking
about financial success?
Or are you talking about
personal happiness?
So what you're looking at--
those can vary dramatically.
So it depends on how
specific the study is
and what they're measuring.
SPEAKER 1: Do we have
any other questions?
Alice, I think we have one
more and then we'll wrap up.
AUDIENCE: Thank you
for your talk today.
So a quick question I have
is, when people usually
talk about connecting
people or networking--
actually, you
should know the idea
that comes to my
mind is why don't we
just do self-improvement
other than networking?
Maybe for myself, I seldom
go to networking events.
Actually, I never
think about just
trying to connect with people.
I'm thinking about when
I was back in school
I really loved what I was doing.
I was a mechanical engineer.
I just enjoy when I was
dealing with mechanical stuff.
And then I think
that's actually maybe
why I actually get
you more and more
familiar with what I'm doing.
And maybe sometimes
showing better skills
than the peer
students around me.
And actually why I'm
hired here at Google.
Maybe that's why.
But compared with
my peer friends,
maybe they're always
trying to get connected
with people in Google.
But actually they
cannot come here.
But for me, I'm just
focusing on myself,
focusing on what I
think I should be doing.
But actually I come here.
And I know a lot
of Google people
without thinking about
networking with people.
So how would you
think about that when
we're comparing self-improvement
and connecting networking,
I would say?
ERIC BARKER: In
the book I do talk
about those two distinctions.
Where what you see is that
extroverts score much higher
in a number of success
metrics because
of networking abilities.
On the flip side,
introverts very often
excel in terms of
individual performance.
In fact, there's one
study, the jargon
was something like extroversion
is inversely correlated
with individual performance.
Or basically, the more
extroverted you were,
the worse you were at your job.
If you're spending a lot of time
hanging out with your friends,
you're probably not spending
those 10,000 hours of practice.
So both are very valuable.
But on average, having that
network, just because you
have those skills, making sure
that the right people know
you have those skills can
make a huge difference.
How does that resume get
in front of the person
when there's 1,000
other resumes?
Or when you're talking about
a much more informal system,
like Hollywood, where there's
not an HR department to become
a director of a movie.
It's all made based on
individual discretion.
Networking is essential, because
there is no formal system
by which to submit your resume.
So that level of visibility
makes a big difference.
And let's face
it, how often when
you buy something, if you
aren't sure which laptop to get,
you're probably going
to ask your friend.
Your friend's going
to say, get this one.
And you might go with it.
Same thing happens
with hiring decisions.
Big stack of resumes.
All are pretty good.
Who do you recommend?
Well, I know that one guy
who-- and you're probably
going to go with them.
And that happens all the time.
So it's a balance
between the two.
If you are more introverted, you
don't enjoy networking as much.
It's like focus on
building skills.
But that doesn't mean
that networking still
doesn't have its value.
And on the other hand,
hey, networks are great.
But if you're not
good at your job,
that's going to be
found out eventually,
and you may not have
that job very long.
So there is a
balance of the two.
I don't think you can really
get to the highest levels
without either an
enormous amount of luck
or a balance between both.
SPEAKER 1: Excellent.
Thank you very much
for joining us.
Let's give Eric a
round of applause.
Thank you.
ERIC BARKER: Thank
you very much.
[APPLAUSE]
