[MUSIC]
>> Fr. Pacwa: WELCOME!
I'M FATHER MITCH PACWA AND
WELCOME TO EWTN LIVE, WHERE WE
BRING YOU GUESTS FROM ALL OVER
THE WORLD.
OUR SHOW TONIGHT T WILL BE
EXPLORING A NEW TRANSLATION OF
THE GOSPEL OF MARK AND IT WAS
DONE BY A BUSINESS SCHOOL ETHICS
PROFESSOR, NO LESS.
THE QUESTION IS, WHY DO WE NEED
A NEW TRANSLATION OF MARK'S
GOSPEL.
FURTHER, WHAT IS A BUSINESS
SCHOOL PROFESSOR, BY HIS OWN
TRANSLATION, ADD TO GO THE
OTHERS?
WELL, MICHAEL PAKALUK IS
PROFESSOR OF ETHICS AND SOCIAL
PHILOSOPHY AT THE BUSCH SCHOOL
OF BUSINESS, CATHOLIC UNIVERSITY
OF AMERICA IN WASHINGTON, D.C.
HE'S ALSO THE AUTHOR OF THE
MEMOIRS OF PETER A NEW
TRANSLATION OF THE GOSPEL
ACCORDING TO MARK.
SO, MICHAEL, WELCOME.
>> Guest: WELCOME, FATHER MITCH
SUCH A PLEASURE AND HONOR TO BE
ON YOUR SHOW.
>> Fr. Pacwa: DELIGHT TO HAVE
YOU.
I'VE DONE A LOT OF WORK IN
STUDYING THE GOSPEL OF MARK.
SO, I APPRECIATE THE WORK THAT
YOU ARE DOING VERY MUCH.
IT'S ONE OF MY FAVORITE COURSES
THAT I HAD IN GRAD SCHOOL WAS ON
MARK'S GOSPEL AND I LEARNED A
LOT FROM IT.
SO, THIS IS A NICE PIECE AND A
NICE WELCOME TRANSLATION.
HERE'S MY QUESTION.
WHY DID YOU CALL IT THE MEMOIRS
OF PETER?
WHY DON'T YOU JUST CALL IT THE
GOSPEL OF MARK.
>> Guest: MEMOIRS OF SAINT
PETER, THAT ACTUALLY IS A PHRASE
THAT COMES FROM JUSTIN MARTYR,
ONE OF THE CHURCH FATHERS.
HE WROTE THAT PHRASE IN ABOUT
150A.D.
IT REPRESENTS THE VIEW OF THE
EARLY CHURCH THAT MARK'S GOSPEL
WAS SOMEHOW DERIVED FROM THE
PREACHING OF SAINT PETER AND
OTHER CHURCH FATHERS CALLED MARK
SAINT PETER'S INTERPRETER OR
SCRIBE.
AND TRADITIONAL VIEW IS THAT
MARK WENT WITH PETER TO ROME.
AND PETER WAS AWKWARD IN
PREACHING AND NOT FEELING
COMFORTABLE WITH GREEK, AND IT
WAS THE ROMAN EMPIRE --
>> Fr. Pacwa: AS A MATTER OF
FACT, I WOULD JUST ADD IN THERE,
HALF OF THE CITIZENS OF ROME, IN
THE FIRST CENTURY SPOKE GREEK AS
THEIR FIRST LANGUAGE.
THERE WERE SO MANY GREEKS THAT
WERE BROUGHT IN AS SLAVES, THEN
THEY BECAME FREEDMEN, THAT HALF
OF ROME SPOKE GREEK.
>> AND THAT RAISES A BIT OF A
SIDE ISSUE.
DID JESUS SPEAK GREEK ALSO?
DO YOU HAVE A VIEW ON THAT,
FATHER, WHILE WE'RE TOUCHING ON
THAT TOPIC?
>> MY OWN SENSE IS THAT THE LORD
DID KNOW GREEK, IN THIS WAY.
I'VE TRAVELED ALL OVER THE
WORLD.
AND THE MOST STRIKING WAS BEING
IN THE AMAZON JUNGLE OF EASTERN
PERU.
AND SOME LITTLE CHILDREN CAME UP
TO ME AND SAID, HELLO, JOE, HOW
ARE YOU.
SO, LITTLE KIDS, RAISED IN THE
AMAZON JUNGLE KNEW SOME ENGLISH!
BECAUSE TODAY, ENGLISH IS THE
MOST COMMON LANGUAGE IN THE
WORLD.
IT WAS LIKE THAT FOR THE
PROVINCE OF PALESTINE, IN THE
ROMAN EMPIRE AND THROUGHOUT THE
EMPIRE.
THE FACT THAT THE CITY OF
SEPHOROUS WAS BEING REBUILT
THROUGHOUT OUR LORD'S GROWING UP
AND THAT CARPENTERS, LIKE, ST.
JOSEPH, HIS FOSTER FATHER, AND
HIMSELF, WOULD HAVE BEEN WALKING
THAT MILE AND A HALF, TWO MILES
TO DO THAT WORK FOR THE ROMAN
GOVERNMENT.
IT WAS A ROMAN PROVINCIAL
CAPITAL.
AND THEY WOULD HAVE KNOWN GREEK
FROM WORKING JUST THE WAY PEOPLE
AROUND THE WORLD KNOW ENGLISH
TODAY.
SO, I HAVE LITTLE DOUBT THAT HE
HAD SOME GREEK.
>> Guest: YES, AND MY NEXT BOOK
IS ON THE GOSPEL OF JOHN.
THAT'S ALREADY IN PRESS.
BUT I BELIEVE THERE ARE PASSAGES
IN JOHN WHICH WE CAN ACTUALLY
THINK OR FROM THE TRANSLATIONS
IN ARAMAIC OR HEBREW, THEY ARE
OUR LORD SPEAK ANYTHING GREEK.
AND THEY COME AND APPROACH HIM.
AND THE ANSWER IS ACTUALLY IN
GREEK ORIGINALLY.
SO, I THINK ONE CAN CONCLUDE
THAT.
THAT'S AN INTERESTING QUESTION.
ALL RIGHT.
SO, THE MEMOIRS OF SAINT PETER,
IT'S A PHRASE THAT COMES FROM
ST. JEROME.
PETER WAS LIKELY NOT AS
COMFORTABLE IN GREEK AS MARK
WAS.
MARK IS NOT A GREAT STYLIST AS
YOU KNOW OR SOME KIND OF
WONDERFUL, HE DOESN'T WRITE IN
HIGH GREEK.
HE WRITES IN COMMON GREEK AND
THEN, IT'S KIND OF RUSTIC AND
FAMILIAR.
BUT HE ACCOMPANIED PETER, JUST
THE PICTURE THAT WAS TRADITIONAL
IN THE CHURCH.
AND AFTER THE MARTYR, LEFT ROME,
AND WENT TO ALEXANDRA.
AND THE GOSPEL, IT'S CONFLICTING
EVIDENCE BUT PROBABLY MAINLY
COMPOSED OF BEFORE PETER'S DEATH
IN ROME.
I ACTUALLY DIDN'T WRITE -- WHEN
I STARTED WRITING THE BOOK, I
WAS JUST GOING TO WRITE A
TRANSLATION AND COMMENTARY ON
THE GOSPEL OF MARK.
AS I WORKED AROUND IT, I BECAME
CONVINCED OF THE TRUTH OF THIS
TRADITIONAL VIEW AND THEREFORE,
I ADOPTED THAT TITLE FOR THE
BOOK.
>> Fr. Pacwa: WELL, YOU CITED
ST. JEROME AS SAYING THIS.
AND YOU MENTIONED JUSTIN MARTYR.
JUSTIN MARTYR IS AN INTERESTING
WITNESS BECAUSE HE WAS BORN IN
THE CENTER OF PALESTINE.
IT USED TO BE CALLED ANOTHER
NAME AND TODAY, IT'S CALLED
NABLOS IN THE PALESTINIAN
TERRITORIES.
AND HE LIVED IN ROME AND DIED IN
ROME.
HE WAS MARTYRED THERE.
SO, HE WOULD HAVE CONTACT WITH
TRADITION FROM WHERE HE WAS BORN
AS WELL AS LIVING AMONG ROMAN
CHRISTIANS WHEN HE EVENTUALLY
MOVED THERE AND IN TEACHING.
HE ALSO CLAIMS TO HAVE HAD
ACCESS TO A VARIETY OF OTHER
RECORDS ABOUT CHRIST'S TRIAL.
SO, HE'S NOT SOMEONE WHO IS,
JUST, OH, I SORT OF HEARD FROM
MY GREAT GRANDMOTHER'S SECOND
AUNT.
NO.
NO.
HE HAS OTHER SCHOLARLY SOURCES,
AND HE WAS A SCHOLAR HIMSELF.
HE WAS NOT A SLOUCH.
>> Guest: RIGHT.
AND I THINK A LOT OF THIS
TRADITIONAL EVIDENCE IS QUITE
STRONG.
AND IF HE WAS THE SAME, THEN YOU
WOULD USE ANOTHER DISCIPLINE AND
ACCEPT IT.
IT'S AN INTERESTING QUESTION WHY
IT HAS BEEN REJECTED BY MODERN
BIBLICAL SCHOLARSHIP SAY, IN THE
BEGINNING OF THE 18TH CENTURY,
18 HUNDREDS.
AND I DO THINK IT HAS TO DO WITH
SOLA SCRIPTURA.
AND IF YOU THINK THAT THE BIBLE
IS THE SOLE CRITERION OF THE
FAITH, AND THE FAITH HAS TO HAVE
CERTAINTY, THEN YOU ARE GOING TO
LOOK FOR CERTAIN STANDARDS AND
THE UNRELIABILITY OF THE
TRADITIONS WHICH IS WHAT BROUGHT
THE BIBLE TUESDAY.
AND THAT LEADS TO THIS CORROSIVE
SKEPTICISM.
>> Fr. Pacwa: YES.
AND YOU SEE, ONE OF THE THINGS
LOOKING AT THE HISTORY OF
SCRIPTURE SCHOLARSHIP, EVEN THE
DOCTRINE OF SOLA SCRIPTURA WAS
INVENTED BY MARSILLIUS OF PADUA
AND WILLIAM OF OKAYMAN IN THE
13TH CENTURY.
THEY USED THAT DOCTRINE BECAUSE
THEY WERE INFLUENCED BY A
PHILOSOPHER, COMING FROM A
MUSLIM PERSPECTIVE.
THEY HAD A POLITICAL AGENDA THAT
THEY WERE IN FAVOR OF THE
EMPEROR AND AGAINST THE POPE.
THEREFORE, THEY WENT FOR THE
BIBLE ALONE, SOLA SCRIPTURA, IN
ORDER TO SUPPORT THE EMPEROR IN
HIS FIGHT AGAINST THE POPE.
AND THIS IS ALSO PART OF THE
AGENDA IN THE 17TH AND 18
HUNDREDS.
THERE WERE POLITICAL ISSUES AS
WELL AS PHILOSOPHY OR
INTERTWINED.
IT SEPARATED THEM IN THE FRENCH
REVOLUTION, IN GERMANY, AND
ELSEWHERE.
AND DENYING THE TRADITION, THEN
MAKES THE GOSPEL, THAT CAN
MANIPULATE FOR POLITICAL
PURPOSES.
>> Guest: NOW, I'M SURE YOU
HAVE HAD SHOWS ON THIS AND
EXAMINED IT IN DETAIL.
IT DOESN'T STAND UP UNDER ANY
SORT OF RATIONAL SCRUTINY.
IT'S NOT SIMPLY A FALSE VIEW
ATTACHED TO AN AGENDA, IT'S
OBVIOUSLY A FALSE VIEW.
AND THIS IS IMPORTANT
POLITICALLY.
WE FIND THE SAME THING IN OUR
TIME, THE PRO CHOICE IDEOLOGIES,
OBVIOUSLY IT IS FALSE.
AND YOU SAY, HOW CAN YOU SAY
THAT SO MANY MILLIONS OF PEOPLE
AND SUPREME COURT JUSTICES
DISAGREE WITH YOU.
WELL, IT IS.
AND IF WE SIT DOWN AND THINK
ABOUT IT, WE AGREE THAT IT'S
OBVIOUSLY FALSE.
AND THAT'S POLITICALLY
IMPORTANT.
IT'S POLITICALLY IMPORTANT TO
GET PEOPLE TO SIGN ON TO THINGS
THAT ARE OBVIOUSLY FALSE.
AND THIS IS GIVING UP OF YOUR
OWN JUDGMENT AND AUTONOMY, IN A
SENSE, YOUR OWN SOUL, IN ORDER
TO BE PART OF THE MOVEMENT.
THIS IS THE IMPORTANT PART OF
THE IDEOLOGY.
AS A MATTER OF FACT, I WAS IN
THE PUBLIC DEBATE ON SOLA
SCRIPTURA VERSUS SCRIPTURE AND
TRADITION.
AND MY INTERLOCUTOR EVEN SAID TO
ME, WHAT'S THERE IN THE
TRADITION THAT IS NOT ALREADY IN
THE BIBLE TEXT ANY WAY?
AND I SMILED.
AND I LOOKED AT THE AUDIENCE.
AND I SAID, THE TABLE OF
CONTENTS.
WITHOUT THE TRADITION, YOU DON'T
KNOW WHAT GOES IN THE BIBLE!
SO, THESE ARE OBVIOUSLY
IMPORTANT VIEWS TO DEAL WITH.
AND YOU BRING -- THAT'S ONE OF
THE THINGS THAT I LIKE ABOUT
YOUR INTRODUCTION.
YOU ALREADY SET OUT, IT'S NOT
JUST ST. JEROME.
IT'S NOT JUST JUSTIN MARTYR.
IT'S PAPIUS, WRITING END OF
FIRST INDUSTRY AND BEGINNING THE
SECOND CENTURY.
FIRST CENTURY, AND BEGINNING OF
SECOND CENTURY.
ORIGIN, AND CLEMENT.
AND ORIGIN WAS THE FIRST
SCRIPTURE SCHOLAR IN THE CHURCH.
ORIGEN.
AND THEY ALL SAME THE SAME
THING.
>> AND IT QUALIFIES FOR WHAT
NEWMAN CALLS CONVERGENCE OF
PROBABILITY.
>> HERE'S THE OTHER QUESTION,
DID YOU COME ACROSS ANY ANCIENT
SOURCES THAT MARK WAS NOT
PETER'S SECRETARY.
>> VERY GOOD QUESTION.
NO, NONE EXISTS.
>> Fr. Pacwa: NONE.
SO, FOR THE FIRST 300 SOME YEARS
OF THE CHURCH, ALMOST 400 YEARS,
EVERYBODY AGREES THAT MARK WAS
PETER'S SECRETARY.
>> Guest: YES.
AND A COUPLE OF VERY INTERESTING
THINGS COME FROM THAT.
ONE IS THE AUTHORITY OF MARK.
IN THE SCRIPTURE SCHOLARS,
AGAIN, MODERN ONES.
I THINK THE INTERESTING QUESTION
AND YOU MAY KNOW MORE OF THE
HISTORY I DON'T GO FEE OF
SCRIPTURE HISTORY THAN I DO.
BUT THEY TEND TO THINK OF THE
COMPOSITION OF THE NEW TESTAMENT
IS LIKE THE COME POITION OF
THEIR OWN -- COMPOSITION OF THE
BOOK.
THEY GO TO THE LIBRARY, GET THE
SOURCES AND THEY APPLY THEIR OWN
CREATIVITY AND THEY COME UP WITH
SOMETHING GOING BEYOND THEIR OWN
THINKING AND THAT'S WHERE THIS
COMES FROM, REDACTION CRITICISM,
DEFINITELY, THE MOST INFLUENCE
MODE OF DOING SCHOLARSHIPS SINCE
THE MID $1,800.
AND THAT IS NOT HOW ORDINARY
PEOPLE WORK.
AND THE GOSPEL IS A WORK FOR
ORDINARY PEOPLE.
THEY WORK FOR HANDING THINGS ON,
ALL TRADITIONS, MEMORIZATION,
THAT IS VERY IMPORTANT BEFORE
THE PRINTING PRESS.
AND PERSONAL INFLUENCE.
SO, I KNOW THIS PERSON WHO KNEW
THIS PERSON WHO NEW THIS PERSON
AND NOT EVEN THAT MANY STEPS,
RATHER THAN THREE OR FOUR IN THE
EARLY CHURCH.
SO, THIS IS HOW THE GOSPEL OF
MARK HAS AUTHORITY.
IT HAS AUTHORITY BECAUSE IT'S
TRACEABLE TO PETER, NOT JUST
BECAUSE IT WAS, OH, THIS WAS
WRITTEN THEREFORE IT HAS
AUTHORITY FOR EVERYTHING WRITTEN
AFTER IT.
THAT'S ACTUALLY A BIZARRE VIEW.
AND MARK -- PETER'S AUTHORITY,
WE DON'T EVEN HAVE TO TALK WHEN
IT WAS WRITTEN, WHETHER IT
BECAME BEFORE OR AFTER MATTHEW
AND LUKE.
WE COULD BE SAYING ALL REFERENCE
IS TRACEABLE TO PETER, REMEMBER
HOW PETER REPRESENTED THE LIFE
OF CHRIST AND THAT WAS A
TREMENDOUS INFLUENCE ON OTHERS
OF THE REPRESENTATION OF OUR
LORD.
>> Fr. Pacwa: ONE OF THE POINTS
THAT YOU ARE MAKING THAT I DON'T
WANT FOLKS TO FLY OVER IS THAT,
IF THIS IS A GOSPEL THAT'S THE
MEMOIRS OF SAINT PETER, IT HAS
TO BE WRITTEN BEFORE HE DIED.
>> YES.
>> Fr. Pacwa: THAT'S AN
IMPORTANT ELEMENT OF IT.
AND HE DIED 65AD, ABOUT THAT.
SO, THAT IS VERY DIFFERENT THAN
MOST OF MY COLLEAGUES.
MOST OF MY COLLEAGUES WOULD SAY
THAT THE GOSPEL OF MARK IS FIRST
AND THAT IT WAS WRITTEN IN 75AD,
75 AND 80.
AND THEIR ARGUMENT IS IN MARK
13, IT PREDICTS THE DESTRUCTION
OF JERUSALEM.
JERUSALEM WAS DESTROYED IN
AUGUST, SEPTEMBER OF 70.
THEREFORE, THIS MUST HAVE BEEN
WRITTEN A FEW YEARS AFTER.
THAT'S THEIR ARGUMENT.
>> VERY BAD ARGUMENT.
>> Fr. Pacwa: SEE, WHAT'S SO
BAD ABOUT IT.
WHAT DO YOU SEE AS THE WEAKNES.
>> WELL, THERE ARE TWO
WEAKNESSES.
AND OBVIOUSLY, IF OUR LORD IS
GOD, HE CAN SEE THE FUTURE AND
HE WANTS TO WARN PEOPLE ABOUT
JERUSALEM.
NOTHING SURPRISING AT ALL THAT
HE WOULD PROPHECY ABOUT THE FALL
OF JERUSALEM.
AND THE CHURCH DEPENDS ON THIS
KIND OF ADVANCE KNOWLEDGE.
AND SECOND, IN NATURE, THE
DESTRUCTION OF THE CHURCH IN
MARK 13, IT DOESN'T HAVE THE
DEGREE OF DETAIL THAT SOMETHING
WRITTEN AFTER THE FACT WOULD
HAVE HAD.
AND IT LEAVES OUT CERTAIN THINGS
THAT YOU WOULD HAVE WANTED TO
PUT IN.
MIGHT WANT TO PUT IN.
AND THE TWO COUNTER ARGUMENTS I
GAVE YOU, EVERYBODY KNEW THEM,
ACCEPTED THEM UNTIL, AGAIN, THE
MIDDLE OF THE 19TH CENTURY.
AND THE QUESTION, WHY THESE
OBVIOUS ANSWERS AND REASONS FOR
REJECTING THAT METHOD OF DATING
WERE PUT ASIDE.
I'M PUZZLED BY THAT.
>> AND IF YOU WERE TO FOLLOW THE
THOUGHT OF PEOPLE LIKE PROFESSOR
WILLIAM FARMER AND A FEW OTHERS.
A REALLY FINE BOOK CALLED
POLITICIZING THE BIBLE.
I DON'T KNOW IF YOU HAVE SEEN
THAT BOOK.
>> NO, I HAVEN'T SEEN THAT ONE.
>> IT'S ABSOLUTELY PHENOMENAL.
BY SCOTT HAHN, AND BEN WEICHER.
THEY ARE BOTH PROFESSORS AT
STEUBENVILLE AND THEY DID IT
TOGETHER.
THE BOOK IS ABSOLUTELY
STUPENDOUS.
AND ONE OF THE ISSUES IS THAT
BECAUSE BISMARCK WAS UNITING THE
PROTESTANT NORTH OF GERMANY WITH
THE CATHOLIC SOUTH AND WEST,
THAT HE WANTED TO DEEMPHASIZE
THE PRIMACY OF ST. MATTHEW'S
GOSPEL.
>> WONDERFUL.
GOOD.
>> Fr. Pacwa: AND MATTHEW'S
GOSPEL IS THE ONE THAT
EMPHASIZES PETER AS THE ROCK
UPON WHICH I WILL BUILD MY
CHURCH.
TO GET CATHOLICS LESS ROOTED TO
THE PAPACY, AND MORE ROOTED TO
THE NEW GERMAN REICH.
THEN, HE DEEMPHASIZED MATTHEW BY
EMPHASIZING THAT MARK IS FIRST.
THEREFORE, IT DOESN'T MENTION IN
MARK 8 THE LINE THAT YOU ARE THE
ROCK AND ON THIS ROCK, I WILL
BUILD MY CHURCH.
IT HAS PETER'S CONFESSION BUT
NOT, YOU ARE THE ROCK.
SO, YOU DISPLACE MATTHEW.
I DON'T KNOW HOW OLD YOU ARE BUT
BACK WHEN I WAS A KID, WE HAD
ONE GOSPEL CYCLE FOR SUNDAY
MASS.
AND THE DOMINANT D GOSPEL WAS TE
GOSPEL OF MATTHEW.
SO, TO DEEMPHASIZE THE
CATHOLIC'S DEPOPE BENEDICTENCE
ON -- DEPENDENCE ON MATTHEW, IN
THE THEOLOGY AND IN THE
LECTIONARY, THEY SAID, WELL,
MARK IS FIRST.
AND THAT'S WHERE THEY GOT THOSE
REASONS.
>> THAT'S FASCINATING JUST ON
ITS OWN, AS AN ARGUMENT BASED IN
HISTORY.
BUT ALSO, I LOVE THE USE OF THIS
KIND OF DEBUNKING STRATEGY WHICH
IS USED SO OFTEN AGAINST THE
CHURCH AND SOUND THINKING THAT
WE SHOULD USE THE SAME WEAPONS.
WE TAKE THE VIEW AND REFUTE IT
ON ITS OWN TERMS.
WE SEE HOW IT CAME ABOUT AND
WHAT IT WAS USED FOR.
I LIKE THAT STRATEGY.
AND FATHER, IF I COULD --
>> Fr. Pacwa: THIS IS WHY I AM
A PUNK FROM CHICAGO.
>> EXACTLY.
NOW, IF I MAY, I WOULD LIKE TO
RAISE A CONSIDERATION RELATED TO
WHAT YOU HAD SAID EARLIER ABOUT
SOLA SCRIPTURA.
SO OFTEN FAMILIAR WITH THIS KIND
OF DEBATING POINT AND IT'S MORE
THAN THAT, IT'S A PROFOUND TRUTH
THAT THE CANON OF THE SCRIPTURE
IS DETERMINED BY THE CHURCH.
THE CHURCH HAS SAFEGUARD OVER
THE SCRIPTURE, KIND OF A
FIDUCIARY TRUST ON THE
REVELATION AND WHAT BELONGS AND
WHAT DOESN'T BELONG IN THE CANON
OF SCRIPTURE.
SO, THERE'S A KIND OF
DEPENDENCE, UNITY OF SCRIPTURE
AND TRADITION IN THAT SENSE AND
EACH IS PRIOR TO THE OTHER AND
IN A DIFFERENT RESPECT AND
CREATES AN APPEALING UNITY.
>> Fr. Pacwa: YES.
AND I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO
PAY ATTENTION TO, WHEN YOU STUDY
THE HISTORY OF THE DEVELOPMENT
OF THE CANON, IT'S NOT THAT THEY
SAID, WELL, I DON'T LIKE THIS
ONE BECAUSE IT DOESN'T HAVE A
GOOD RHYTHM AND I CAN'T DANCE TO
IT.
IT'S NOT LIKE THAT!
IT'S NOT ARBITRARY.
>> IT HAS TO DO WITH APOSTOLIC
ORIGIN.
>> EXACTLY!
THESE BISHOPS IN THESE AREAS
HAVE THESE BOOKS.
AND THESE BISHOPS --
>> BY THE WAY, MARK IS NOT AN
APOSTLE.
AND FURTHERMORE, HIS GOSPEL IS
THE GOSPEL OF AN EYEWITNESS.
ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS THAT WE
DIDN'T CONSIDER, IF IT'S NOT
PETER BEHIND THE GOSPEL OF MARK,
THEN WHO IS?
AND MANY TIMES, WHERE PETER
ANDREW AND JOHN ARE TAKEN ASIDE
IN THE GOSPEL OF MARK AND ONLY
THEY WERE WITNESSES AND GIVEN
EYEWITNESS ACCOUNTS, I THINK WE
CAN SAY NOT JOHN AND IMPROBABLE
THAT IT WAS ANDREW.
SO THAT JUST LEAVES PETER.
>> Fr. Pacwa: HERE'S THE
QUESTION THAT SOME PEOPLE BRING
UP.
WAIT A MINUTE!
OF ALL OF THE GOSPEL, PETER
LOOKS THE WORST IN MARK.
THE OTHER GOSPEL SHOW HIM A LOT
MORE RESPECT.
THEY HAVE HIM, LIKE, MATTHEW
MENTIONING, YOU ARE ROCK, AND ON
THIS ROCK, I WILL BUILD MY
CHURCH.
AND YOU KNOW, THERE ARE A LOT OF
OTHER, VERY IMPORTANT, POSITIVE
STATEMENTS IN THE OTHER GOSPEL.
HIS FAILINGS AND FAULTS ARE
THERE, TOO.
BUT MUCH MORE POSITIVE RESPECT
IS SHOWN IN ST. LUKE THAN IN
MARK.
AND IF THIS IS PETER'S MEMOIRS,
HOW COME THEY MADE HIM LOOK SO
BAD?
>> FIRST OF ALL, ABOUT THE
PETRINE AUTHORITY, ALTHOUGH YOU
ARE PETER IS NOT IN THE GOSPEL
OF MARK, THERE ARE MANY, MANY
POINTS, I WOULD SAY, 12-15 WHICH
UL STRAIT PETER'S FROM TIME TO E
ILLUSTRATE PETER'S PRIMACY OVER
ALL.
AND IT'S NOT HIDDEN.
IT'S NOT EVEN CORRECT TO SAY
IT'S SOFT PEDALED AND YOU MAY
SAY, PRESENTED IN A SOFT AND
IMPLICIT WAY.
AND THAT'S CONSISTENT WITH PETER
BEING THE SOURCE OF THE GOSPEL.
WHAT ABOUT THE PORTRAYAL OF
PETER'S FOIBLES?
GO TO THE GOSPEL OF JOHN.
LOOK HOW JOHN DEFERS TO PETER.
THEY BOTH GET TO THE TOMB, JOHN
GETS THEIR EARLY AND WAITS FOR
PETER TO GO IN.
JUST ONE EXAMPLE.
AND IT'S SO DELICATE, THE WAY
IT'S DESCRIBED IN JOHN.
IT'S CLEAR THAT THERE'S
TREMENDOUS DEFERENCE AND RESPECT
TO PETER BY ALL OF THE OTHER
APOSTLES.
SO, ALMOST LIKE IT'S ONLY PETER
WOULD BE SO BLUNT ABOUT HIS OWN
FOLEFOIBLES AND IT IS RECOGNIZED
MARK GIVES SO TO SPEAK, THE MOST
UNFLATTERING PORTRAIT OF PETER.
AND THE BEST EXPLANATION IS THAT
IS PETER'S HUMILITY.
I WANT TO SAY MORE THAN THAT.
I WANT TO SAY SOMETHING ABOUT
WHAT I CALL THE SUBJECTIVE ARK
OF MARK'S GOSPEL AND THE
RECEPTION OF THE GOSPEL.
TAKE THE GOSPEL OF JOHN AS
ANALOG.
JOHN IS CONCERNED WITH THE
RECEPTION OF OUR LORD BY THE
JEWISH PEOPLE.
A VERY IMPORTANT THING OF THE
GOSPEL OF JOHN, HOW IS IT THAT
HE CAME UNTO HIS OWN AND HIS OWN
RECEIVED HIM NOT.
RIGHT?
AND THERE ARE SOME REALLY
INTERESTING PRINCIPLES THAT WE
DISCUSSED IN THE PHILOSOPHY IN
THE NEW TESTAMENT.
EVERYTHING THAT'S RECEIVED IS
RECEIVED IN THE MANNER OF THE
RECIPIENT NOT IN THE MANNER OF
THE THING RECEIVED.
SO, IF YOU ARE GOING TO DISCUSS
THE COMING OF THE WORD INTO THE
WORLD.
JUST LIKE THE PARABLE OF THE --
YOU HAVE TO SPEAK ABOUT THE
RECEPTION OF THE WORD.
THAT'S PART OF THE STORY.
THAT'S PART OF THE INCARNATION.
RIGHT?
ONE OF THE WAYS TO THINK ABOUT
MARY, SHE'S THE PERFECT
RECIPIENT OF THE INCARNATE WORD.
BUT EVEN THE REST OF US ARE
FAIRLY IMPERFECT AND HIS OWN
PEOPLE REJECT HIM IN THE GOSPEL
OF JOHN.
IN THE GOSPEL OF MARK, MARK
SIMPLIFIES THE LIFE OF CHRIST.
BASICALLY, HE PREACHES FROM
GALILEE, COMES DOWN TO
JERUSALEM, AND IS CRUCIFIED.
BUT THAT'S WHAT I CALL THE
OBJECTIVE ARK OF THE GOSPEL OF
MARK.
THE SUBJECT OF IT IS HOW HE'S
RECEIVED EVEN BY THOSE CLOSE TO
HIM OF THE AND YOU FIND REPEATED
MISUNDERSTANDINGS, LACK OF FOOL,
THE REBUKES, FOOLISH STATEMENTS
AND PETER IS OBVIOUSLY LEADING
THESE THINGS.
ON THE MOUNT OF THE
TRANSFIGURATION.
NO, YOU CAN'T BE CRUCIFIED.
GET BEHIND THEE SATAN.
AND PETER IS KIND OF IN THE LEAD
OF ALL OF THIS.
AND AFTER PROFESSING THIS, EVEN
AFTER FALLING AWAY, HE DENIES
OUR LORD, RIGHT?
AND THREE TIMES.
ONLY IN MARK DO YOU HAVE THE
ROOSTER CROWING TWICE WHICH
MAKES THE THIRD DENIAL EVEN MORE
SHOCKING.
BECAUSE HE HEARD ONE ROOSTER
CROW AND STILL KEPT DENYING OUR
LORD.
IT'S THE LEAST FLATTERING
ACCOUNT OF THE FAILURE OF HIS
OWN FRIENDS AND DISCIPLES TO
RECEIVE HIM PROPERLY IS IN THE
GOSPEL OF MARK.
AND I THINK THAT FOR PETER, THIS
IS AN IMPORTANT PART OF THE
GOSPEL.
IT'S NOT JUST THE GOOD NEWS.
IT'S, LIKE, OUR DEFECTIVE
RESPONSE TO THE LORD WHICH OUR
LORD RESPONDS THEN TO, IN MERCY.
AND THAT'S PETER'S OUTLOOK ON
THE GOSPEL.
>> I THINK THAT IS RIGHT.
THERE ARE SOME REALLY FINE
LEADERS WHO ARE RETICENT ABOUT
THROWING THEIR LEADERSHIP WEIGHT
AROUND.
>> YES.
VERY INTERESTING.
>> THEY ARE THE LEADER BUT THEY
DON'T SAY, WELL, OF COURSE, I
WAS CHOSEN.
>> I THINK THERE'S A STAGE IN
PETER'S LIFE AND WITH THE OTHER
APOSTLES WHERE THEY DID LIKE
SAYING, WELL, I'M DESIGNATE TOAD
SIT AT THE RIGHT AND THE LEFT.
AND I DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOU GUYS,
BUT I GOT TO SEE SOMETHING ON
SOP TOP OF THE MOUNTAIN, I CAN'T
TELL YOU WHAT IT IS AND YOU
DIDN'T SEE IT.
BUT THERE WAS A LOT OF THAT
GOING ON.
>> YEAH.
>> Fr. Pacwa: AND MARK'S GOSPEL
DESCRIBES, AS DOES THE OTHERS,
BUT IT ALSO INDICATES THAT, I
DON'T DESERVE THAT THE HUMILITY
OF SOMEONE WHO REALIZES HOW
PROFOUNDLY HE HAS BEEN FORGIVEN
OF BAD SINS.
AND BECAUSE HE LOVES THE LORD
ALL THE MORE HIS SINS ARE
HIGHLIGHTED IN HIS OWN MIND
WHILE OTHER PEOPLE ARE SAYING,
ACTUALLY, HEY, WE THINK YOU ARE
A GOOD GUY.
BUT YOU DON'T KNOW.
SO, HE IS BRINGING THAT OUT.
AND I SEE THAT GOING ON IN THE
TEXT.
>> PETER, COMMA, A SINNER.
AND I THINK THAT'S HOW MOST
SAINTS SIGN THEIR NAMES.
AND THAT IS SO CLEAR IN THE
GOSPEL OF MARK.
AND ANOTHER THING, THIS CANON OF
THE SCRIPTURE POINT THAT WE
DISCUSSED EARLIER.
I BECAME VERY IMPRESSED IN
WORKING ON THIS BOOK WITH WHAT I
CALL THE SELECTION PROBLEM.
LET'S TAKE SERIOUSLY JOHN'S
CLAIM THAT THERE ARE SO MANY
EVENTS ABOUT THE LIFE OF CHRIST
THAT COULD BE WRITTEN DOWN, AND
YOU PUT IT IN BOOKS, AND JOHN
DISCUSSES THE MEANING OF THE
CLAUSE THAT THE WHOLE WORLD MAY
BE NOT ENOUGH TO CONTAIN ALL OF
THE BOOKS.
WE DON'T HAVE TO SAY THAT.
WE CAN SAY A HUNDRED THOUSAND
THINGS THAT OUR LORD DID.
RIGHT?
AND HOW MANY STORIES AND
MIRACLES AND PER ICKPIES THAT,
THEY ARE CALLED BY SCHOLARS, DO
YOU KNOW WHAT THE COUNT IS,
FATHER?
HAVE YOU EVER CHECKED?
HOW MANY BITS OF SEPARATE
ACTIONS, MIRACLES ARE THERE?
>> Fr. Pacwa: WELL, I DID A
LONG TIME.
I DID IT A LONG TIME AGO BUT
HAVE YOU TO REMIND ME.
>> I RESEARCHED IT AND IT WAS
200.
AND IN THE GOSPEL OF MARK, IT'S
70 OR 80.
BUT THIS IS THE PROBLEM THAT
CONFRONTS SOMEBODY WHO WANTS TO
WRITE DOWN ANYTHING.
ORAL TRADITIONS ARE OPEN.
YOU CAN SAY, I'LL TELL YOU MORE
LATER.
OR YOU CAN SIGNIFY OR SUGGEST
THERE'S A LOT MORE TO BE SAID.
AND THERE'S THIS, I'LL GO OVER
THIS BRIEFLY AND SO ON.
BUT WHEN YOU WRITE SOMETHING
DOWN, THERE'S A SENSE IN WHICH
YOU COMMIT YOURSELF TO INCLUDED.
SO, WHAT YOU INCLUDE BECAUSE
VERY, VERY IMPORTANT.
AND THIS IS IMPORTANT FOR PETER,
IF HE IS, AS I BELIEVE HE IS,
AND THE CHURCH HOLDS, AND HE'S
REPRESENTED AS BEING IN THE
GOSPEL OF MARK.
THE FIRST AMONGST THE APOSTLES,
VICAR OF CHRIST, A UNIVERSAL
PASTOR.
WHEN THE APOSTLES ARE LEAVING
FOR THE DIFFERENT CORNERS OF THE
WORLD, THEY HAVE TO HAVE SOME
KIND OF AGREEMENT WHAT THE LIFE
OF CHRIST, WHAT THE PORTRAIT OF
CHRIST IS GOING TO LOOK LIKE.
OF THOSE HUNDRED THOUSAND, THE
APOSTLES PICK THESE HUNDRED AND
ANOTHER PICKED ANOTHER HUNDRED
AND SO ON, AND YOU WOULD BE IN
DANGER OF DRIFTING OVER TIME IN
UNDERSTANDING THE GOSPEL.
SO, IF I AM AN ADMINISTRATOR OR
SENDING OUT PEOPLE WHO ARE
CHRIST'S VICAR THROUGHOUT THE
WORLD, I WANT THERE TO BE
UNANIMITY OF HOW CHRIST IS GOING
TO BE PRESENTED.
AND THIS IS A WAY OF
UNDERSTANDING THE AUTHORITY.
IT'S REPRESENTING PETER'S
COMPOSITE PORTRAIT.
IF WE COVER THESE THINGS, WE'VE
COVERED HIM WELL AND ADEQUATELY
AND THIS IS A GOOD
REPRESENTATION OF OUR LORD FOR
PEOPLE ALL AROUND THE LORD.
SUPPOSE THAT'S TRUE.
AND I THINK IT IS TRUE.
BUT HERE'S THE INTERESTING
THING.
AND THIS CAME TO ME WHILE I WAS
AT CHURCH THE OTHER DAY AND I
WAS IN THE VESTIBULE WITH A
LITTLE KID LISTENING TO THE
HEALING, SEVERAL HEALINGS OF THE
LEPER.
AND JUST IMAGINE ONE OF THEM.
AND YOU SAY, OH, IN MY ADULT
LIFE OF A CATHOLIC, I PROBABLY
HEARD THIS A HUNDRED TIMES AND
HEARING IT OVER AND OVER.
WHY DIDN'T WE HAVE MORE STORIES
OF OUR LORD, WHY JUST THESE?
WHO PICKED THAT OUT?
WHO PICKED THAT OUT SO THAT FOR
THE NEXT 20 CENTURIES, THIS
STORY WOULD BE LISTENED TO AGAIN
AND AGAIN AND AGAIN BY
CHRISTIANS.
AND IT DAWNED UPON ME, THAT I AM
UNDER THE PASTORAL CARE OF THE
FIRST POPE WHEN I LISTEN TO THE
NEW TESTAMENT BECAUSE IT WAS
PETER'S DETERMINATION PRIMARILY
IN THE GOSPEL OF MARK WHAT WAS
TO BE INCLUDED IN THE COMMON
PREACHING OF OUR LORD.
THEN, THAT LEADS TO AN ANALOGOUS
POINT.
AND THE GOSPEL DON'T JUST STAND
ON ITS OWN.
THE BIBLE DOESN'T STAND ON ITS
OWN.
THE CONTENTS HAVE TO BE FIXED BY
THE CHURCH.
AND SOMETHING FUNDAMENTAL, THE
PORTRAIT OF JESUS, WHO JESUS
WAS.
IT DOESN'T STAND ON ITS OWN.
IT'S HAND IN HAND WITH THE
PETRINE MINISTRY.
AND WE HAVE A PORTRAIT OF THE
LORD, AND UNDER THE GUIDANCE OF
THE FIRST POPE.
AND WE'RE BEING GUIDED BY
DECISIONS OF WHAT PETER MADE HOW
OUR LORD WOULD BE REPRESENTED.
THAT'S WHAT I CALL THE SELECTION
PROBLEM.
AND THEY THINK JUST FROM A
MANAGERIAL POINT OF VIEW.
MAYBE BEING IN BUSINESS SCHOOL
HAPPENS IF THIS REGARD.
IT WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN LEFT UP TO
CHANCE BY ANY GOOD MANAGER.
>> Fr. Pacwa: ALL RIGHT.
WE HAVE TO TAKE A LITTLE BREAK.
AND WE'RE GOING TO COME BACK AND
I'D LIKE TO PURSUE THAT JUST A
LITTLE BIT MORE.
LET'S TAKE A BREAK RIGHT NOW AND
CONTINUE THAT PART OF THIS
DISCUSSION.
HOW AND WHY DID THEY CHOOSE WHAT
THEY CHOSE TO LAY OUT BEFORE US
THE GOSPEL.
SO, PLEASE, STAY WITH US!
[MUSIC]
[MUSIC]
>> WE ARE SPEAKING
WITH MICHAEL PAKALUK, A
PROFESSOR OF ETHICS AND SOCIAL
PHILOSOPHY AT THE BUSCH SCHOOL
OF BUSINESS AT THE CATHOLIC
UNIVERSITY IN AMERICA, IN
WASHINGTON, D.C. AND ALSO, HE'S
THE AUTHOR OF A BOOK CALLED THE
MEMOIRS OF SAINT PETER, A NEW
TRANSLATION OF THE GOSPEL
ACCORDING TO MARK.
YOU CAN GET THIS BOOK AT EWTN
R.C., OUR RELIGIOUS CATALOG,
ewtnRC.com.
IT'S ITEM NUMBER 8345.
IT'S A VERY USEFUL TEXT!
SO, SOMETHING THAT WE WERE
DISCUSSING, HOW IT IS THAT OF
ALL OF THE VARIOUS EVENTS OF OUR
LORD'S LIFE THAT WE HAVE
RELTTIVELY SMALL NUMBER OF THE
GOSPEL AND MARK IS THE SHORTEST
OF ALL OF THE FOUR GOSPEL.
RELATIVELY SMALL
ONE OF THE ISSUES THAT I
SUSPECT.
FIRST OF ALL, IS THAT ISN'T THAT
CORRECT COMPOSED THIS IN ROME.
IS THAT PART OF YOUR THESIS AS
WELL?
>> YEAH, I'M CONVINCED OF THAT.
IT'S NOT REALLY IMPORTANT FOR MY
THESIS, BUT SO MANY SCHOLARS
HAVE POINTED OUT THAT FOR A LONG
TIME, SO MANY REFERENCE TO ROME
AND THE LIFE, THAT I THINK IT
CONFIRMS THAT.
>> AND THERE'S A FEW LATINISMS
IN THERE, LATIN WORDS, WRITTEN
IN GREEK.
>> RIGHT.
BUT THERE ARE EQUIVALENTS,
ARAMAIC EQUIVALENTS BUT THE
LATIN IS USED
>> Fr. Pacwa: AND MOST LIKELY,
WRITTEN IN ROME.
I MYSELF, WE HAD A DISCUSSION
YESTERDAY.
ST. LUKE COPIED ABOUT 2/3 OF
MARK INTO HIS OWN GOSPEL.
AND ST. LUKE, I'M CONVINCED
FINISHED WRITING LUKE AND ACTS
BY 62.
THAT'S WHERE THE ACTS OF THE
APOSTLES ENDS INCONCLUSIVELY.
AND THE OLD ARGUMENT USED THAT,
WELL, HE PREDICTED THE
DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM,
THEREFORE, IT MUST BE
AFTERWARDS.
THE PROBLEM WITH THAT IS ACTS OF
THE APOSTLES MAKES NO MENTION OF
THE WAR BETWEEN ROME AND THE
JEWISH PEOPLE.
MAKES NO MENTION OF THE
DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM.
AND SCHUK LIKES POINTING OUT
THAT WHEN YOU ARE BAD, SOMETHING
BAD HAPPENS TO YOU, GUESS WHAT?
IT'S YOUR FAULT.
SO, LIKE WHEN HEROD, THE GRIPPA,
SCRUTS ST. JAMES AND THEN ALMOST
JOHN AFTERWARDS AND THEN HE DIES
EATEN BY WORMS IN HIS STOMACH.
THAT'S BAD.
BUT HE LIKES TO SHOW THAT
CONNECTION.
BUT HE DOESN'T MENTION THE
DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM.
THAT'S, LIKE, THE DESCRIBING OF
HISTORY OF MARK AND SKIPPING
OVER 9/11 -- HISTORY OF NEW YORK
AND SKIPPING OVER 9/11.
AND HE KNEW WHEN IT HAPPENED IN
62, BEFORE PAUL WENT TO TRIAL.
AND THAT MEANS THAT MARK WAS
WRITTEN BEFORE THAT
>> Guest: YES
>> Fr. Pacwa: PROBABLY WRITTEN
IN THE 50'S AND THAT'S MY OWN
ASSUMPTION.
IF THAT'S THE CASE, WHAT YOU
HAVE IS ABOUT 20-SOME YEARS OF
PREACHING.
SAINT PETER HAD BEEN PREACHING
IN JERUSALEM AND IN JUDEA AND HE
GOES UP TO ANTIOCH AFTER HE
ESCAPES HEROD AGRIPPA THE I AND
HE COMES TO CORINTH BY 53 OR 54,
ACCORDING TO ST. PAUL RECKONING.
AND THEN, HE GOES TO ROME IN
THOSE EARLY 50S.
SO, THIS IS SOMETHING WHERE HE
HAS BEEN PREACHING FOR A WHILE
AND IN DIFFERENT LOCATIONS.
NOW, WHEN YOU ARE A PREACHER,
YOU KNOW IN THE CLASSROOM, THERE
ARE CERTAIN THINGS THAT THESE
EXAMPLES GET ACROSS THE POINT
BETTER THAN OTHERS.
THE LONGER YOU TEACH AND THE
LONGER YOU SEE THE REACTION OF
WHAT STUDENTS GET AND WHAT THEY
DON'T GET
>> Guest: YES
>> Fr. Pacwa: THE MORE THAT YOU
ADAPT YOUR CLASS MATERIAL TO
WHAT THEY UNDERSTAND SO THEY GET
THE POINT THAT YOU ARE GETTING
ACROSS.
WOULD THAT BE ABOUT RIGHT?
>> Guest: YEAH, THAT'S A
FASCINATING IDEA, CONTESTED BY
EXPERIENCE, PASTORAL EXPERIENCE.
>> YEAH, YEAH, THAT'S A GREAT
IDEA.
>> Fr. Pacwa: SO I THINK THAT
THE REPEATED PREACHERRING BY
PETER AND THE VARIOUS
COMMUNITIES AND AT THE LITURGY.
I MEAN, HE WAS CELEBRATING MASS
ALL OF THOSE YEARS AND
PREACHING.
ST. JUSTIN MARTYR SAYS WE READ
THE MASS.
HE DESCRIBES THAT.
HE DESCRIBES THAT IN HIS SECOND
APOLOGY.
SO, YOU HAVE THAT PROCESS OF
EXPERIENCE AND THIS IS WHAT
GRABS PEOPLES' ATTENTION, THE
AHA MOMENTS.
AND THIS IS WHAT I THINK GUIDES
THE CHOICE OF EPISODES
>> Guest: I AGREE WITH THAT.
THAT'S A GREAT THESIS.
>> Fr. Pacwa: YEAH.
AND IT'S FAIRLY COMMONLY HELD,
BUT IT MAKES GOOD SENSE.
THAT'S PART OF IT.
AGAIN, ALSO, THERE'S 20-SOME
YEARS FROM THE DEATH OF OUR LORD
AND HIS RESURRECTION UNTIL THE
WRITING THAT HE HAS TO SORT OF
WORK ON THAT.
AND I DON'T KNOW HOW LONG YOU
HAVE BEEN TEACHING BUT I HAVE
TAUGHT FOR A LONG TIME.
AND I KNOW THAT THERE ARE
CERTAIN THINGS THAT WORK BETTER
THAN OTHERS.
>> Guest: YES
>> Fr. Pacwa: AND THIS IS, NOW,
THINK, VERY IMPORTANT BECAUSE WE
ALSO HAVE POPULAR WRITERS
ANYWHERE FROM THE DA VINCI CODE
TO VARIOUS OTHER SO-CALLED
THEOLOGIANS SOMETIMES.
AND SOMETIMES CLERGY PREACHING
IN THE PULPIT WHO DENY CERTAIN
THINGS AND SAY, OH, WELL, WHAT
REALLY HAPPENED -- AND IN THE
FACE OF THAT, YOUR BOOK IS VERY
IMPORTANT TO GIVE CREDIBILITY.
YOU DON'T GIVE CREDIBILITY, YOU
LAY OUT WHAT THE CREDIBILITY OF
THE GOSPEL IS
>> Guest: YES
>> Fr. Pacwa: AND THAT'S WHAT'S
IMPORTANT
>> Guest: OKAY.
AND YOU KNOW, 20 YEARS, AS WE
POINTED OUT IS PROBABLY THE SPAN
OF TIME BETWEEN THE BEGINNING OF
PREACHING AND WHEN THESE THINGS
FIRST GOT WRITTEN DOWN BY MARK.
THAT'S NOT A LONG TIME.
RIGHT?
SO, THAT'S LIKE YESTERDAY AS YOU
ARE LIVING YOUR LIFE!
20 YEARS IS NOT THAT LONG
>> Fr. Pacwa: LOOK, I CAN STILL
TELL YOU THAT I WAS IN LATIN
CLASS WITH FATHER ROWKOKSKI WHEN
PRESIDENT KENNEDY WAS SHOT!
I REMEMBER THAT!
>> Guest: YES
>> Fr. Pacwa: AND THERE'S
EVENTS IN LIFE WHEN YOU SAY, OH,
I KNOW WHERE I WAS, I WAS EATING
MY BREAKFAST WHEN I SAW THE
FIRST SHOTS OF 9/11.
YOU REMEMBER.
>> Guest: RIGHT.
YES.
AND IN PETER'S GOSPEL, MARK'S
GOSPEL, THERE'S VERY LITTLE
PREACHING.
MOSTLY MIRACLES AND DRIVING OUT
AND THIS IS ANOTHER KIND OF
CONFIRMING BIT OF EVIDENCE, THAT
PETER IS BEHIND THE GOSPEL.
PETER WE KNOW IS AN ACTIVE MAN,
A FISHERMAN.
AND HE WAS A SPONTANEOUS
CHARACTER AND THINK ABOUT THE
WAY THAT HE JUST DIVES IN THE
WATER WHEN OUR LORD APPEARS IN
THE LAST CHAPTER OF JOHN.
THAT'S HIS CHARACTER.
AND WE TEND TO REMEMBER.
SO, THIS QUESTION OF, LIKE, THE
ASSASSINATION OF THE PRESIDENT
KENNEDY, WHAT FROM 20 YEARS AGO
IS JUST SO SALIENT TO YOUR
MEMORY THAT IT IS AS IF YOU WERE
THERE?
AND SOMEBODY LIKE PETER, IT'S
KIND OF, LIKE, A WORK OF POWER,
A WORK OF DIVINE POWER, NOT
NECESSARILY A TEACHING.
HE DOESN'T GET AROUND TO
PRESENTING TEACHINGS OF OUR
LORD.
HE'S MUCH MORE INTERESTED IN
SPELLING DEMONS AND HEALING
PEOPLE.
>> Fr. Pacwa: YES.
AND YOU THINK ABOUT THAT, THERE
WOULD BE CERTAIN TEACHERS THAT
YOU ARE ATTRACTED TO BECAUSE OF
WHAT THEY SAY.
BUT THIS TEACHER.
AND YOU SEE IT IN THE GOSPEL OF
ISN'T THAT CORRECT, THAT FIRST
SERMON AT THE SYNAGOGUE IN
COMPANION, PEOPLE SAY, HE
DOESN'T TEACH LIKE THE SCRIBES
AND THE PHARISEES.
IT'S HIS OWN AUTHORITY, AND THEN
HE CASTS OUT A DEMON, TOO!
>> Guest: EXACTLY
>> Fr. Pacwa: THIS IS VERY MUCH
A HIGHLIGHT FOR SOMEONE LIKE
PETER WHO SAYS, YEAH, IT WAS A
GREAT MESSAGE.
I DON'T REMEMBER WHAT HE SAID,
HE DIDN'T REMEMBER WHAT HE SAID!
>> Guest: NOT SO MUCH.
THAT'S ALSO KIND OF ENDEARG
>> Fr. Pacwa: IT IS.
BUT HE KNOWS.
EVERYBODY WAS PAYING ATTENTION.
IT WAS AUTHORITATIVE AND HE CAST
OUT THE DEMON BY AUTHORITY.
TOO.
>> Guest: EXACTLY RIGHT.
AND YOU ASKED AT THE VERY
BEGINNING, DO WE NEED ANOTHER
TRANSLATION OF THE GOSPEL OF
MARK.
AND I WANTED TO DISCUSS THAT IN
CONNECTION WITH PETER BEING THE
AUTHOR.
BUT THERE IS A KIND OF
EYEWITNESS CHARACTER TO MARK,
WHAT IT WAS LIKE TO BE THERE,
THAT'S THE PHRASE I LIKE TO USE
WHICH CHARACTERIZES THE ACCOUNTS
OF THE MIRACLES.
I DON'T THINK IT'S BROUGHT OUT
WELL ENOUGH BY THE TRANSLATIONS.
THE TRANSLATIONS ARE REALLY
FINE, LOTS OF BIBLE TRANSLATIONS
QUIBBLING WITH THE NEW AMERICAN
BIBLE AND SOME OTHER THINGS.
BUT IN GENERAL, THE STANDARD IS
REALLY VERY HIGH FOR BIBLE
TRANSLATION, THINK.
BUT THIS IS KIND OF, LIKE, DID
YOU GET THE WORD CORRECT OR DID
YOU SAY, HAIL MOST HIGHLY
FAVORED WOMAN, FULL OF GRACE.
IT'S MUCH, MUCH MORE SUBTLE THAN
THAT.
IT'S LIKE A MUSICIAN, A VIRTUOSO
WHO HITS THE NOTE AND FAR
SUPERIOR TO ANY OTHER PLAYER.
BUT AM I A GOOD TRANSLATOR?
BUT I HAVE TO SAY I CAN BE RIGHT
UP THERE WITH THE OTHERS, I I
WANTED TO TRY TO BRIT OUT THE
SUBTLETIES, BECAUSE IT'S FINDING
THE RIGHT EXPLANATION IN ENGLISH
WHICH REALLY DOES BREAK OUT THIS
SENSE OF SPONTANEITY AND I WOULD
GO BACK AND SAY, 5 TIMES, 10
TIMES, IS THIS REALLY THE BEST
WAY, DOES THIS CAPTURE IT?
I THINK ABOUT IT ALL DAY LONG,
THE TRANSLATION AND FIDDLE AGAIN
WITH IT IN THE EVENING.
I THINK THAT'S THE SUCCESS.
THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE SAY ABOUT
THIS TRANSLATION.
IT'S A NEW BALLGAME, LIKE
READING THE GOSPEL OF MARK FOR
THE FIRST TIME.
AND SOMEBODY WAS SAYING, NOW,
THEY ARE TRANSLATING IT AND I'M
SEEING THINGS IN IT THAT I SAW
IN THE COL ECT BROUGHT OUT BY
HIS TRANSLATION.
THIS IS WHY I WANTED TO DO IT
BECAUSE YEAH, WE NEEDED TO SEE
THESE THINGS ARE SO CLOSE TO THE
TIME IN WHICH THEY HAPPENED.
AND THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN
RECOLLECTION AND RECO REMINISCE.
AND YOU KNOW, PARIS -- WELL, YOU
GO WHAT'S THE CAPITAL OF GERM
ME, WHAT'S THE CAPITAL OF
FRANCE, PARIS.
WE KNOW THAT.
THAT'S ALWAYS REMINISCE ANNS AND
WHAT IT WAS LIKE FOR ME TO BE IN
PARIS, WHAT I REMEMBER SEEING,
HEARING, SMELLING WHEN I WAS IN
PARIS.
THAT'S THE CHARACTER OF MARK'S
ACCOUNT.
IT'S NOT RECOLLECTION, IT'S
REMINISCENCE, THE MEMOIRS.
I REALLY WANTED TO CONVEY THAT.
AND I DON'T THINK IT WAS
CONVEYED WELL ENOUGH SO ONE CAN
ALWAYS DO BETTER.
SO, IF I SUCCEED NATURAL
DISASTER THAT, THE TRANSLATION
IS A SUCCESS.
BUT THE COMMENTARY IS DIFFERENT.
THE COMMENTARY, I FIND THAT
SCRIPTURE IS REALLY FASCINATING
AND REALLY INTERESTING, RAISING
ALL KINDS OF PUZZLES.
EVEN WHAT'S CALLED THE LITERAL
SENSE, WHAT HAPPENED.
HOW MUST HAVE THINGS BEEN LIKE
FOR THEM TO BE RECOUNTED IN THE
WAY THAT THIS GOSPEL WRITER IS
RECOUNTING THEM.
AND IN CONNECTION WITH THIS,
THINK THE JAPANESE 5Y, THE
JAPANESE MANUFACTURING, IF YOU
WANT TO BE ABLE TO UNDERSTAND
SOMETHING YOU HAVE TO ANSWER THE
Y QUESTION FIVE LEVELS DOWN.
AND EVEN THE GOSPEL OF MARK,
SUCH A SIMPLE GOSPEL FOR ANY
VERSE AND YOU CAN ASK THE FIVE Y
QUESTIONS AND HAVE REALLY
INTERESTING THINGS TO THINK
ABOUT.
SO, I WANTED TO WRITE A
COMMENTARY THAT SHOWED THE
INTELLECTUAL RICHNESS OF EVEN A
SIMPLE GOSPEL LIKE MARK.
THINK THIS IS FOR THE NEW
EVANGELIZATION OR APOSTOLATE,
DRAWING PEOPLE IN.
I'M THINKING OF THE ENGINEERS AT
GOOGLE OR FACEBOOK AND MAYBE
DISMISSED CHRISTIANITY.
AND NO, THIS IS EXTREMELY
FASCINATING.
READ THIS ABOUT THE GOSPEL OF
MARK.
SO, THAT'S WHAT THIS BOOK IS
TRYING TO DO.
I THINK THAT'S TWO NEW THINGS
>> Fr. Pacwa: AND THINK FOR OUR
AUDIENCE TO UNDERSTAND SOME OF
YOUR BACKGROUND, YOU TEACH
ETHICS.
AND ONE OF YOUR RESOURCES IS
AYERS TOTLES NICO MATEI US
PHILOSOPHY AND YOU WERE READING
AND TRANSLATING THAT FROM GREEK,
TRANSLATING THAT MATERIAL INTO
ENGLISH, IS THAT CORRECT.
>> YEAH, THREE BOOKS ON THAT
PHILOSOPHY, AND HE'S AN
INTERNATIONAL EXPERT ON THE
BOOK, I AM.
>> Fr. Pacwa: SO, YOU ARE
FAMILIAR WITH THE GREEK OF THE
ANCIENT WORLD FROM OTHER
PERSPECTIVE, ARISTOTLE BEING ONE
OF THE MOST IMPORTANT
PHILOSOPHERS IN THE HISTORY OF
THE WORLD.
I'M SURE YOU HAVE READ PLATO AND
THE OTHER PHILOSOPHERS.
EVEN THOUGH THE COINA DIALECT OF
THE GOSPEL IS A BIT DIFFERENT
FROM THE GREEK OF ARISTOTLE AND
PLATO.
STILL, YOU HAVE THE BACKGROUND
AND WHEN YOU TRANSLATE
LANGUAGES, ESPECIALLY IF YOU
KNOW THE LANGUAGE FROM ITS
DIFFERENT STAGES OF IT, YOU GET
A FLAVOR, A TASTE OF THE
LANGUAGE AND YOU THEN CAN SEE
THINGS AND I'VE FOCUSED ON NEW
TESTAMENT GREEK, COIN A GREEK,
AND HAVING MORE BACKGROUND IN
GREEK IT IS EXTREMELY HELPFUL
TO HELP CATCH THE DISTINCTIVE
IMMEDIACY OF MARK'S GOSPEL, THE
ENERGY AND THE DRIVE OF IT AS
DISTINCT FROM SOME OF THE OTHER
GREEK LITERATURE.
AND THAT'S EXTREMELY USEFUL AS A
WAY TO HIGHLIGHT WHAT IS
SPECIFICALLY MARK'S WAY OF
CONVEYING IDEAS AND THOUGHTS.
THAT'S WHY I WANTED TO POINT
THAT OUT TO FOLKS.
NOT SOME BACKGROUND WHICH, OH, I
JUST SORT OF FELT LIKE I'LL
CHANGE A FEW WORDS HERE AND
THERE.
NO.
HAVE YOU A DYNAMIC SENSE OF THE
LANGUAGE THAT THE WORDS SENSE
AND YOU ARE CONVEYING THAT.
>> AND IT'S A HIGHLY ACCURATE
TRANSLATION, IF ANYBODY HAS THE
IMPRESSION THAT IT'S A PAIR
PARAPHRASE, NO, IT'S NOT.
AND THEN, I ASK MYSELF TWO
QUESTIONS BECAUSE I THINK OF
EACH SENTENCE IN THE EXPRESSION
OF A COMPLETE THOUGHT WHICH IS A
STANDARD GARMIAN DEFINITION OF
WHAT A SENTENCE IS.
YOU HAVE TO VIEW EVERYTHING HOW
IT FITS IN THE SENTENCE AND THE
LARGER STRUCTURE.
OF COURSE, THAT'S THE MEANING OF
THE NATURE.
AND THE SENTENCE QUESTION I ASK,
DOES MY ENGLISH RENDITION
CAPTURE EVERYTHING GOING ON IN
THE GREEK SENTENCE, NOT JUST
WHAT'S SAID BUT THE NUANCES AND
ALL OF THE SHADES, WHAT'S IN
THERE BUT NOT BEING SAID.
YOU WANT THAT TO BE YES.
TO BE COMPLETE THAT'S VERY HARD.
LEARNING TO TRANSLATE A ARISTOT,
IF THERE WERE 20 THINGS, I WOULD
CAPTURE 17 OR 18.
AND THAT WAS VERY HARD TO DO.
AND HAVE I INCLUDED ANYTHING
INADVERTENTLY NOT IN THE GREEK
THAT WOULD SUGGEST SOMETHING
OTHER THAN SAYING WHAT'S IN THE
GREEK.
AND YOU WANT THAT TO BE NO.
SO, TO GET BOTH YES, FIRST, AND
NO ON THE SECOND IS REALLY,
REALLY DIFFICULT AND REQUIRES A
LOT OF DISCIPLINE AND
EXPERIENCE.
IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT YOU CAN
EASILY DO.
AND THEN, THE ENGLISH WE END, IT
NEEDS TO READ LIKE A NATURAL
SENTENCE, NOT A STRANGE THING
THAT'S NOT ENGLISH
>> Fr. Pacwa: AND I WAS JUST
GOING TO ADD THERE.
WE ONLY HAVE A MINUTE OR SO BUT
I WANTED TO MENTION TOO.
ENGLISH ITSELF IS A VERY LIVING
LANGUAGE.
IT CHANGES THAT THE ENGLISH
SPOKEN TODAY IS NOT THE SAME AS
A HUNDRED YEARS AGO EVEN.
YET EVEN IN MANY EARLIER
CENTURIES, BUT TO HAVE SOMETHING
THAT ALSO CONNECTS WITH MODERN,
CONTEMPORARY ENGLISH AND CONVEYS
THAT QUALITY OF WHAT'S IN MARK,
FOR HIS LEVEL OF GREEK.
THAT'S WHERE THE SKILL COMES IN.
>> AND ALL OF THE TIMES, THEY
HAVE APPROACHED ME OF NEW
TRANSLATION OF SO AND SO AND
ETHICS.
AND I SAY, DO WE NEED A NEW ONE
OR ARE THE 20 THAT EXIST PRETTY
GOOD.
AND THEY SAY, OH, WELL, 20 YEARS
HAS PAST HAD AND THEY THINK THAT
IT NEEDS TO BE REDONE AND MAYBE
LANGUAGE IS CHANGING FASTER THAN
WE THINK.
AND YOU KNOW, COLLOQUIALISM, YOU
WANT IT TO HAVE THE SAME
TONALITY AS MARK'S LANGUAGE
>> Fr. Pacwa: WELL, YEAH, WE
HAVE THE FORMALITY OF HAVING RUN
OUT OF TIME!
I WANT TO MENTION, THE BOOK IS
CALLED THE MEMOIRS OF SAINT
PETER, A NEW TRANSLATION OF THE
GOSPEL ACCORDING TO MARK.
IT'S BY MICHAEL PAKALUK, OUR
GUEST TONIGHT.
YOU CAN GET THE BOOK AT
ewtnRC.com.
IT IS ITEM 8345.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR BEING
WITH US, MICHAEL.
WE APPRECIATE IT.
AND MAY THE LORD BLESS YOU AND
ALL OF OUR VIEWERS IN THE NAME
OF THE FATHER, SON, AND THE HOLY
SPIRIT.
AMEN.
AND AGAIN, WE ASK YOU TO
CONTINUE, YOU'VE BEEN WONDERFUL,
GENEROUS AND KEEPING US GOING
THROUGH THE COVID CRISIS IN THE
LAST MONTHS.
JUST CONTINUE TO REMEMBER AND
KEEP US THROUGH THE GAS BILL,
ELECTRIC BILL AND WE'LL BE ABLE
TO PAY ALL OF OUR BILLS AND
BRING YOU GUESTS LIKE THIS.
GOD BLESS YOU AND THANK YOU.
[MUSIC]
