[MUSIC PLAYING]
Hi, everybody.
Welcome to another episode.
I'm Mike Monticello.
I'm Kelly Funkhouser.
And I'm Jake Fisher.
So for those of you that
are watching the podcast as
opposed to listening
to it, you can
see that we have a
new face here today,
and that is Ms.
Kelly Funkhouser.
Kelly has been with Consumer
Reports for several months now,
but this is your first
time on the podcast,
so welcome to the show.
Thanks.
Now, I know you're
from Utah, and I
know you are CR's Program
Manager for Vehicle Usability
and Automation, which
sounds really important.
It is.
It absolutely is.
That's what I figured.
So tell us-- so tell the
audience a little bit
about your background and what
brought you at Consumer Reports
and what you do here.
So I was studying
cognitive psychology
at the University
of Utah, and that
means that I was trying to
understand how people interact
with systems and machines,
and particularly drivers
with automation.
Those are the driver assist
type features that everyone has
been talking about these days.
Right, which actually
fits in with something
that we're going to
talk about today, which
is Consumer Reports' first
ever ranking of partially
automated driving systems.
And I know you two had
a lot to do with that,
and apparently also
go to the same tailor
is what I'm guessing,
judging by your shirts, that
are the same color.
But I think the bigger issue
that everyone really cares
about, what's with the arm?
Oh, yeah.
So for those of you
that are watching,
you can see my hand
is bandaged up.
I had a little bit of a
crash on my mountain bike
and I had to have some
surgery to fix a few things.
But I'll be fixed up soon.
Don't feel like you have
to send a bunch of get well
letters or everything.
I'm going to be OK.
So let's get back
to the subject,
though, because this is a
big deal, the fact that we've
ranked these systems.
We haven't done this before.
So Kelly, let's-- I'm going
to throw you to the wolves,
since you're brand new.
That's what we have to do.
OK, let's do it.
Tell us what exactly are
partially automated driving
systems.
Partially automated
driving systems
are steering and
speed control that
is done in part by the car.
So those are some of the
advanced or adaptive cruise
controls.
So it's kind of a step up from
the traditional cruise control
people are familiar with, where
it automates some of the gap
distance or following distance
from a car ahead of you,
or steering, which may try
to keep you in your lane
or push you back when you try
to get close to a landline.
Right.
And then adaptive cruise control
has been around for a while,
but the steering assist is kind
of one of the newer things.
Jake, why?
Why now?
Why is Consumer Reports
ranking these systems now?
Well, we're seeing
more and more of them.
So I think Tesla really
made a lot of news
when the autopilot
came out and everyone
was very excited about
it and everyone's
posting videos of themselves
on YouTube with it.
And it's one of
these things that's
really understood very well.
But there's more and more of
these autopilot-like systems
out there now.
They're becoming
really more mainstream.
I mean, we're seeing them on
just normal everyday cars, not
just luxury low volume vehicles.
And we just felt it was really
important to look and see
what's going on out there,
and also kind of looking
at the different
aspects of them.
Because they're really
almost all over the map.
They're not being
implemented the same way.
And we want to see
what's a good way
to do these things, what's a
bad way to do these things.
Right.
I mean, Kelly, how did
we get to the point
where I think
people out there now
think that a lot of cars out
there are self-driving cars,
but they aren't really, right?
No.
No, they're far from that.
So as Jake was saying,
there are varying degrees
of how well these
cars perform, if they
do a good job at keeping
you centered in the lane
or if they're more
reactionary as you
start to drift over a lane.
Maybe it might just
give you a slight nudge.
But even the best systems
out there right now really
are not self-driving.
Right.
And I mean, part
of it, Jake, is it
fair to say that
some of these systems
have been marketed to make
people think that they're kind
of like a self-driving
car, or at least
they can go into
self-driving modes?
Is that a fair statement?
Well, let me think about this.
Yes.
OK.
Absolutely.
And it's overselling what
the capabilities are.
And I think probably
maybe the best example
was when Mercedes Benz first
introduced their system.
And this was a couple
years ago, and there
was full page ads that
said your self-driving
Mercedes Benz is here.
I don't know if
it could possibly
be any more confusing to make it
think that it's a self-driving.
I mean, it's literally
there in the ad.
In that situation, they've
backed off quite a bit.
I mean, we wrote quite
a bit about saying, hey,
it's not a self-driving car.
But it's just one of these
different things that are going
on that really is a confusion.
I mean, you hear about
what's going on with Waymo
or something,
California, you almost
feel that self-driving
cars are here.
Yeah, they're not.
And didn't we have something
similar like that with Volvo
recently, too, where
they were marketing it
a certain way on their website.
And I think you contacted
them and said, look,
this is what it says, this
is what it's implying,
but that's not what's
really happening, right?
Yeah, well that was interesting.
So we took several
different of these systems--
the systems that we have in the
cars that we purchased-- and we
looked at these systems.
And one of the ones
we included was Volvo,
with their Pilot Assist system.
And what was interesting about
it was when we-- actually I
talked to Volvo prior
to this to kind of see
what their comment was, because
it was not one of the-- it
was one of the lowest
rated systems out there.
And they were like,
well, what are you doing.
It's not a partially
autonomous system,
you should think about it
as advanced power steering.
And I said, well no, you're
kind-of presenting it
as something more than that.
And they were like, oh no.
And I'm like, OK, I'm on
your website right now
and it's in the autonomous
driving section of the website.
So again, perhaps
overselling it,
perhaps adding confusion to it.
But when they realized
that, they actually
change the website.
So actually today the
website is changed
and it's no longer underneath
the autonomous driving section.
Still it's being presented
as a semi autonomous system,
I think it's still
a lot of confusion.
It's better, but there's
still confusion there.
So let's talk about
the criteria for how
we ranked these systems.
So we had five
criteria, and they
were automation capability, ease
of use, is it clear to drivers
when the system
can safely be used,
does the system make sure the
driver is paying attention
to the road, and what does the
system do if the driver doesn't
or can't respond to prompts to
retake control of the vehicle.
So Kelly, I'm going
to start with you.
Let's start at the bottom of
our rankings, which was Volvo.
Volvo, yes.
So Volvo turned out to be one
of the least capable systems
of actually keeping you in your
lane, and controlling the speed
and steering simultaneously.
That being said, because
it's not very capable,
it actually may have some
benefits in that the driver is
engaged pretty much all the
time because they're not
going to be relying
on the system
to do the steering for them.
So it's really more of a--
as Volvo actually said
on the phone call--
is a power steering, or
an advanced power steering
type of a system.
So it's just kind of helping
you with the steering
rather than doing it for you.
It did fall behind in some
of the other categories
too, such as the, we
call it system fallback,
which is what happens if
you don't respond when
it's telling you to
touch the steering wheel
and things like that.
The Volvo actually just
shuts off completely.
Yeah, overall it
wasn't very capable.
The drivers can be putting
too much faith in the systems
and not paying attention.
I mean, that's one of our big
things with these systems,
right?
Yeah, absolutely.
And to be clear, these
systems-- and we're
looking at how good are
they at driving automation.
But when you start
thinking about it,
it's like, why should it
be automating the driving.
And safety is not the
reason, because these are not
safety systems, these are not
advertised as safety systems,
these are convenience features.
Like driver assist systems.
Like some kind of a--
Well--
Is it even that, or maybe
is that even too strong?
Driver assist--
That's even too strong?
Often the assists are
sometimes safety systems,
so it's very confusing
because the nomenclature
is all over the place.
But these are not
safety systems,
they are convenience features.
And it's a convenience
feature that may have risks.
Because if there is
over-reliance on the system
and it's too good at driving
yourself down the road,
people may very
quickly tune out.
And that is one of our concerns.
Right.
So if you're
concerned about that
the best system is no system.
Right.
Right, right.
Well and the fact that
the system shuts off
when you may need it most
just reiterates the fact
that it's not a safety
system, it's not there
to help you when you need it to
be a safety system, it's more
of it convenience feature.
OK, so that's Volvo.
Let's talk about the
Nissan Infiniti system.
You want to take that one, Jake?
Sure, sure.
And it was a little
of a newer system.
But what's interesting about
the Nissan Infiniti system
is that it's very quickly
going across product lines.
It's already in the Nissan
Rogue, it's in the Leaf
that we tested it on, it's
going to be in the Altima,
so it's really kind
of going mainstream.
In our testing it's
a bit more capable
than the Volvo, a little bit.
But again-- and Nissan
has reiterated this to us,
too-- they didn't want to make
it too capable because they
were concerned that
people were going
to have this over-reliance
with the systems.
And it doesn't seem that
Nissan or Volvo is really
trying to completely create
an autonomous vehicle.
So it's not trying
to-- they're not trying
to let the car drive itself?
Right.
OK.
But again, I don't
think that's clear.
And that's part of the reason
why we're trying to do this,
and where we're trying to call
attention to what they do,
and why they don't.
Because again, if you look
at the marketing nomenclature
and all that stuff, it's fuzzy.
But going back to
Nissan Infiniti,
looking at this system.
Again, a little bit
better in terms of that,
but talking about-- as
Kelly was talking about,
what happens if someone
doesn't respond.
So in our testing, it's kind
of very unique in the way
this operates.
So for instance, it tells you
keep your hands on the wheel
and does all that.
So, well say you
fell asleep right,
and your hands fall
down or whatever.
It goes and actively
tries to wake you up.
It will actually pump
the brakes a few times.
It will make an
alarm that almost
sounds like a police alarm.
It'll go-- you know,
tried to do that,
and if that doesn't happen,
it keeps you in your lane,
it comes to a controlled
halt in your lane,
and uses these systems
to try to keep you safe.
Again opposite of
Volvo which just said,
hey, you're not using our
system right by taking it off.
Gotcha.
OK.
Right.
Kelly, let's move on
to Tesla, obviously
the most well-known system
autopilot of any of these.
Yes.
What were the highlights and
lowlights of that system?
So autopilot is very good
at keeping you in the lane
and controlling the
speed in most situations.
So on the highway or in stop and
go traffic it kind of shines.
But it does allow you to use
it on some of the back roads,
and end roads that have
different types of lane
markings or even a
single lane marking.
Which may be good
or bad, depending
on if you're paying attention.
Right, OK.
Yeah, there's a lot of--
again, [? essentially ?]
when we look at capability,
it's capable of
doing lots of stuff
it's really good at
holding you in its lane.
The problem is that
because of that,
there's a chance for
over-reliance if it.
There's a chance of--
we've both driven this car
hundreds of miles, right.
Yeah.
We've driven cars
with autopilot,
and once you go an hour--
and I've gone over an
hour without having
to put any input
in the steering,
or putting any
input in the pedal.
It's-- whether or not you're
going to be there and ready
to take over in an instant
is cause of concern.
And it's capability,
it's like, yeah, I
mean you could have
almost part of one lane,
and it's locked on to
it, but not very good.
It'll drive erratically.
Right, and to go further,
it even prevents you
from adding your own steering
while you're driving.
So soon as you activate--
Right, it doesn't like that--
Shut--
Well, once you put
any steering yourself,
you've shut the system off.
Exactly.
So now you have to restart
it, which is kind of annoying.
Right, is that the point?
Exactly.
OK.
So it almost convinces you not--
Where some of
these other systems
will let you add the
steering in that you want--
Right, right so if there is a--
And then it goes, and when
you to take your hands back
off the wheel it goes back
to whatever it was doing.
It's collaborative.
Exactly, yep.
OK, interesting.
Well, Jake we're going to let
you take the number one spot.
Cadillac Super Cruise,
tell us about that.
Super Cruise.
And that was in the CT6, in
case people were wondering.
Yes.
That's the Cadillac
CT6, and it will soon
be in many other
General Motors vehicles.
Really, it comes to the crux
of what we're doing here.
And while Tesla has
the capabilities
of going on some back
road and some broken line,
and tries to do that, Cadillac
takes a completely different
route about it.
So yes, on the right-- [? an ?]
[? undivided ?] highway, yeah,
it is very capable and
does a really nice job,
stop and go traffic,
or a long highway.
But it is much more
restrictive, and really
tries to balance the safeguards
with the capability, which
is something that
really makes it unique.
So one, it's not
so collaborative,
because it's
actually the only one
that actually-- if you're
using it correctly,
you actually do it hands free.
So you'll engage
your hands free,
but they make sure you're
looking at the road
by using a camera.
So that really is
a game changer,
because in our opinion
putting your hands
on the wheel isn't enough to
make sure that you're actually
looking at the road.
Looking at the road
is a better measure.
Doesn't mean that you're engaged
in the driving experience,
but it certainly
the better measure.
So that's one thing that
it does really well.
The other thing is that
it limits its operation.
So you're only on
the divided highway,
it's not going to allow you
to do it on other roads.
Highways that they've
mapped out already?
Highways that-- in our
experience it's basically all
divided highways
across the country.
OK.
It is capable there.
So it's not going to
go in some back road
where it's not as
sure, or maybe there's
going to be a cyclist
or something like that.
It's not doing that.
And also because
it uses those maps
it can actually
warn you before you
need to take over the controls.
So it can say, OK
well in a half a mile,
you're going to be
getting off on an exit,
take over now, get back, engage.
As opposed to the
other systems, which
are kind of like this split
second I need help now,
take over.
And you're like, wait,
are their cars around me,
that's the issue.
So we have a lot
more information
on this topic on our website.
You can click on the links
in the show notes below,
or you can go to
consumerreports.org.
So let's move on to
audience questions.
As always, we want to remind
you we love hearing from you.
Send your questions, comments,
30-second video clips
to TalkingCars@icloud.com.
Our first question
that we have today,
actually, is incredibly
pertinent to what we've
been talking about already.
So let's read what
Max has to say.
Maybe it's one of those
things that you just
need to try it for
yourself, but I
can't understand how
self-driving systems, where
you keep your
hands on the wheel,
provide any benefit
to your drive.
It shouldn't be
a burden to drive
in a straight line
on the highway,
assuming you're
paying attention.
If anything, I
feel like it would
be jarring to feel the
steering wheel moving
without your input.
Is this simply a party
trick at this point?
Love the show, I
watch every week.
Jake, I'm going to
throw you this question
first, since Kelly's kind of
been hogging the show already.
So what do you got for us,
what do you have to say to Max?
Well, first of all,
Max, you get this.
And I think it would be
wonderful to see you, Max,
maybe consulting for
some of the car companies
going forward because
you're understanding
some of the issues.
And we hear it from
people, we experience it
when we drive the vehicles,
we hear it from people
when we survey them about
using this type of technology.
Sometimes you're fighting it.
I remember one person said,
well, either I drive the car,
or it drives the car.
It's like, make up your mind.
It's a strange situation.
Volvo, again, when
we talked to them,
they're like, well
it should help you.
But the truth is
sometimes it fights you.
So if you want to drive
in this part of the lane,
now it's trying to
tug you over there.
It's not quite totally right.
It's not really developed, and
these are some of the issues
that they're having
with these cars.
And I think, Kelly, we know
they're not exactly right yet,
because sometimes
they're annoying.
And so people end up
just turning them off
because they don't want the
steering fighting with them.
Right, right.
So some of these
systems that have
the automation-- especially
the steering part, right, those
are the ones that are jarring
what he said in his question.
You don't really want that.
You don't want to
fight with the systems,
you just end up turning it off.
So we still a little
ways to go on,
or they have a little ways
to go on this technology.
Let's go to the
next question, which
is actually a video question.
So Andrew, can you
run that tape for us?
This is John from us
Richland, Washington.
Been a fan of your
show since episode 1
and it's one of my
favorite podcasts.
Anyway I've got a
question for you.
I've got a 2002
Volvo V70 T5, it's
the black one in
the foreground here.
I've got about 170,000
miles on this car, bought it
about a year ago, had the
transmission fluid changed
at the time.
And my mechanic has told
me that the transmission--
it's an auto 5 speed-- is
nearing the end of its life.
And he's recommended
don't do anything to it,
when it goes out, that's
the end of the car.
Is there anything that I can
do to prolong the lifetime
of the transmission?
But is there something I could
add, or is it just leave it
as is and when it ends it ends.
So appreciate your advice,
and again love the show.
Thanks.
All right, so I think that's a
really good question, actually.
His mechanic told him
that the transmission's
going to have some issues.
So the question
is what can he do
to make it last as
long as possible.
And I talked to our
mechanic, Big John,
and he said basically there
isn't a whole lot he can do.
Additives could help it, or
they could actually hurt it.
And flushing the fluid again
could actually hurt it as well.
His best advice is
just leave it as it is.
But the one thing
that you can do
to prolong the
transmission's life
is to basically drive
it as gently as you can.
And that's about the
only thing you can do.
Beyond that, just
drive the car gently
and see how long it will last.
And then, at that
point he's right,
probably to replace
the transmission.
It's going to be--
cost maybe as much
as the car is worth.
Yep.
So just go easy on it, and
see how long it will last,
that's basically the advice.
Our next question, this is from
David says, love the podcast.
I'm now a CR member and it's
because of Talking Cars!
That's pretty awesome.
I'm looking for a new
or lightly used car
to use for weekend trips.
We definitely want something
with all-wheel drive, good fuel
economy, and room to
transport my bike.
Is a Subaru my only option here?
Kelly is a Subaru
his only option?
Right before coming
here to this job,
I had to sell my
Subaru Forester.
Sold it to my sister
because it's a good car.
If I'm going to recommend a
car to you a personal family
member, it's going to
be a Subaru Forester.
I loved it.
Fits a bike, fits a
snowboard, fits dogs.
All-wheel drive, good
for snow, good for dirt.
Running back and
forth to your cabin.
Going back and
forth to the cabin,
that's one of the
reasons that I got it.
It's like, Subaru's a good car.
OK.
Jake what do you have to say?
Subaru's are good cars, but
there's lots of other choices,
too.
Look, there's a lot
of nice small SUVs,
doesn't have to be a Forester.
It's a good choice, but I
might go for a Mazda CX-5,
the Honda CR-V is
a nice option too.
So I think there's
enough options there
that, they're good options, so
you could kind of choose which
one do you like driving the
most, which one-- you know,
even if you care about the
style or something like that,
look at the infotainment.
So there's different
options out there for sure.
Right.
You know, it's funny,
he didn't actually
give us as many specifics
as we usually get.
Usually there's a price range
or something like that in there,
and there really
wasn't a price range.
And didn't actually
mention the Forester,
we're just sort-of assuming
that's what he's talking about.
Could have been an
Outback as well,
but I'm pretty sure
it was the Forester.
And I agree with you Jake
on some of your picks there.
First of all, I think you
can't go wrong with a Forester.
But I also was thinking like
you said my Mazda CX-5 not quite
as much cargo room, not
quite as good a fuel economy.
But also I was thinking
maybe Volkswagen Alltrack,
the Volkswagen Golf Alltrack.
Again, not as much
cargo capacity,
but what I like about
those two picks-- the CX-5
and the Golf Alltrack-- is that
they're nicer driving vehicles
than the Forester.
I'm sorry to hurt your feelings.
No, no I like the Mazda as well.
So let's go to
our last question.
I'm helping my parents replace
their 2015 Toyota Camry
SE with a car that has more
advanced safety features,
such as Forward Collision
Warning and Automatic Emergency
Braking.
They both drive, but
they're 79 years old
and we'll need more
of these features.
They have a budget of 20 to
$26,000 and want a car that's--
want a used car that's
reliable, has good fuel
economy, and a warranty from
the manufacturer if possible.
Jake, what do you got?
Get a new Camry.
Don't look used.
If that's the price
range you're looking at,
you could afford a new Camry--
it comes standard
with those features
that they're looking for.
And quite honestly if you're 79
years old you want a warranty,
you want a vehicle
that you're not
worried about getting it fixed
and something going wrong.
Quite honestly,
you get broken down
in a used car and
something like that,
it's a bigger deal
if you're elderly.
So I would say, yeah, no
question, get a new Camry.
Agree or disagree
with your boss?
That's, I absolutely agree.
That's actually what I was going
to say as well, is the Camry
is a good choice.
The new ones, they've got
a lot of safety features.
You know what, when
I first looked at it,
I thought, OK, used or new
Honda Accord, because I really
like the Honda.
Actually, I liked driving
the new Honda Accord
a little better than the Camry.
But then I thought about it,
and I thought, 79 years old,
Camry and Accord sit
pretty low to the ground,
so then I started
thinking, small SUV.
And the problem there is--
I love your thought
of at that price range
you can get a brand new
Accord or Camry, I love that.
But-- and it's a little harder
to get a brand new small SUV
and keep it below $26,000 and
still have the safety gear,
so I would say 2016
2017 Toyota Rav4
or back to your choice
again, Subaru Forester.
Because they're so easy
to get in and out of,
do you know what I mean?
I hate to say, I agree with you.
I'm backing out of the Camry.
And I'll tell you
what, I'm going
to take it one step further.
Right now, if you're
looking for the car
right now, because the
new Forester is coming,
a 2019 Forester is coming out.
They're redesigning
the Toyota Rav4.
I bet you can get a 2018 RAV4
or Forester in that price
range with that equipment.
Yeah, that's a good point.
OK, well that's going to
wrap it up for this episode.
If you want to learn more
about the cars and the topics
we talked about
today you can click
on the links in the show notes.
Keep sending those questions,
comments, video submissions
to TalkingCars@icloud.com.
For the super smart Kelly
Funkhouser, and the wonderfully
witty Jake Fisher,
I'm broken down
old Mike Monticello saying
thanks for watching,
and we'll see you all next week.
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