the first rule of journalism I learned
from my dad was the questions are more
important than the answers second when
asking questions good reporters use the
five W's and H third facts must have two
independent sources if not attributed to
one speaker fourth editors provide a
vital role they keep reporters from
jumping the gun and publishing stories
without all the facts with today's
millions of sources were dealing with
more data and less information we are
the editors now on today's show my
guest and I will explore some of the
events leading up to how we receive news
today what's driving the narrative and
what my guest has learned along the way
he's been a CIA officer a New York Times
magazine editor a comedy writer for Bob
Newhart and a talent coordinator for The
Tonight Show so you know there's a story
or two right there an internationally
noted novelist he's the author of 10
books one of his novels surprise party
is in 54 editions his website Urgent
Agenda dot com is one I read every day
after today's show you'll know why
[Music]
welcome to the show William Katz well
thank you sir I'm glad to be here well
please allow me to set the stage here
COVID 19 has many dots to connect and
it's teaching us some very harsh lessons
of the light and I wrote some bullet
points down because I'm not going to
commit them to memory
yeah I can't I'm too old for that so
dealing with information being thrown at
us from a million sources is one and
we're losing the who what where when why
and how our great reporting on top of
that we're now the editors to but we
aren't trained for that and we're basing
massive decisions on what may be missing
information or outright lies China's
numbers are suspect so when I thought of
doing a show about all this and the need
for being our own news editor guess what
I instantly thought of you and so here
you are bill what say you well I think
it's first of all an exceedingly
important subject you know we talked
very grandly about freedom of press in
the United States and there's there was
a press critic in the nineteen fifties
and sixties named AJ Liebling very
famous man and who used to say freedom
of the press belongs to the man who owns
one today we all in a way own a press
it is a remarkable transition that we're
going through in the flow of information
when the First Amendment was written
guaranteeing freedom of the press it was
written before the age of electricity
many people don't realize that there is
no way in the world that the founders of
this country could have predicted what
the press or the media as we call today
would look like in the year 2020 they
had don't no idea how to plug anything
in to be plugged in there was no
electricity through words the press
actually meant
a man working in a basement problem with
a teenage son at a printing press and
doing it page by page and circulating
possibly a two or three page newspaper
that's what the press was today we have
a press that has two enormous cattle
characteristics one it's very democratic
in the sense that anyone can get online
and save their piece on the other hand
it's frightening
because we have these huge international
conglomerates passing themselves off as
journalistic organizations that claim
that they are the the gatekeeper they
are the the watchdog over American
democracy and we usually find that
they're only watching one side of the
political argument I think most people
have sensed even if they may not be able
to articulate it that something is very
wrong and it didn't start yesterday it
started probably during the Vietnam era
we used to say during that era that if
the United States had the press and
World War two that it had in Vietnam we
would have lost world war two we began
to see the transition from reporting the
news without fear or favor to well this
is our opinion and we're really much
better than you are at home we can tell
you these things reporting is kind of a
minor part of the effort and I'm sorry
to say that idea has grown into what you
see today the CNNs the New York Times
I was on the New York Times this is a
completely different newspaper than the
one I served back in the 1960s the
importance of editors editors are
critically important because every
writer needs an editor including really
good writers when I was on The Times I
was an editor and I added it some very
famous people
they all need their editors somebody has
to be the watchdog over the reporter and
must interfere interrupt that raw
information that comes through and
instead of putting it right into the
newspaper make certain that everything
is right that it's read that it's
research and then it goes into the paper
if it is a relevant story right now you
have not only in the press but in
publishing and in certain parts of the
government
news without editors books without
editors the great book editors of the
past are no longer with us today it's
the marketing director who basically
runs the publishing house you have
people who often don't have enough
experience to be editors we used to talk
about the curmudgeoning old editors
those editors were good and one of the
things they were very good at and what
the media today is very bad at and it
applies really throughout the economy is
vocabulary words mean whatever they they
want them to me they use a word like
diversity they never talked about what
it actually means in real life which is
not what it's supposed to mean they will
talk about ethnicity different groups in
ways that the groups themselves wouldn't
even recognize and they will say well
this is not only our right it's our
responsibility to analyze now I happen
to work at the Times under a man named
Lester Markel who was really the founder
of modern interpretive journalists and
he always warned us how dangerous it was
that the line between interpretation and
editorialization is very thin and that
that applies not only to the press to
radio and television it applies to
advertising it applies to a discussion
of health care you you need you need
somebody to say no this is not a fact
it's just your opinion that you're
making into a fact so I think we have a
crisis a word that has overused itself
in communications in America people
believe or at least some have believed
that they were getting a story when in
fact they were getting an editorial we
still are paying the price for that kind
of journalism used in Vietnam and is an
open wound in the society you know what
many people don't realize that the North
Vietnamese wrote an official history of
the war in which they admitted that they
had lost but it was never that that
remarkable passage in the book where
they said we were defeated and we sued
for peace has never been read over any
American reason it's it's stunning it
really is funny
is there a link to that I can provide I
mean would where would I where would we
find that because I'll try I'd be happy
to dig it up and put it in the
description so people can actually I
don't know I don't know where you'd find
a book I mean the official North
Vietnamese history of the Vietnam War
should be available to everyone for some
reason it disappeared many years ago I
have not seen the copy in perhaps twenty
or thirty years but it was stunning
because the their official history you
know it's strange about military
histories very often even dictatorships
want them accurate and it's I don't know
what what the incident is maybe they're
afraid that if they do a propaganda
piece their own military will turn
against them but the Nazis me yes yes
but we are not getting today the kind of
news that we were told we were supposed
to deliver when I was at the Graduate
School of Journalism in 1962 it was very
closely supervised by editors from the
New York Times which at that time was a
great newspaper not always great but
great enough and we have lost the
influence of the lead porters in the
what we call the greatest generation
that we think of the greatest generation
Tom Brokaw's phrase as the soldiers the
homefront
nobody ever thinks about the fact that
we had a press that did a remarkable job
in World War Two and one of the reasons
they did a remarkable job is they had
lived in very hard times themselves in
the depression they knew how they knew
how serious this was I have an actress
friend who has a wonderful phrase about
young people today and she says one of
the reasons they are often so shallow is
that they have never seen strife real
strife they've actually grown up in
very easy times until this bump that we
we've hit and this is a big bump and
maybe this will change them that the
world is a serious place a presidential
election is not a football game and and
one of the things that makes any great
news organization
is the great editor at the top the
person who lays down the rules and says
this is the way it's going to be and if
you don't like it you can leave but
we're not going to change it for you
because you feel something in your blood
you must say if you feel something in
your blood that you must say go work for
the editorial that is what is needed the
the muffle of editing is so low and that
level of editing is a direct result of
an educational system that has become
very lax that has become very
propagandistic where my narrative when
your narrative are equally valid and
everyone's narrative is equally valid
who are we to say that someone's
narrative is wrong well the purpose of
any good investigation whether it's in
in health care in deal with is that the
narrative has to be challenged and you
have to find out what the correct
narrative is the quality of our
information will depend on what people
think their jobs are you know you hear
all the time in journalism a reporter
would say we're just doing my job well I
would like to know what he thinks his
job is or what she needs her job is I
think we would be shocked at that the answer
very often what what concerns you the
most about the information we're being
given about COVID 19 I think what
concerns me the most is the fact that we
have so many people giving us the news
who are scientifically illiterate they
know absolutely nothing about science
and they don't have any interesting I'll
tell you the story when I was a student
at the University of Chicago we were
required to take a course called Natural
Sciences One or Physical Sciences One I
think they changed name every now and
then it was a course but other
universities called Physics for Poets
it is of course not for scientists or
for science students but for non-science
students to learn what they need to know
about science to function as a citizen
and we I had to be dragged into the
course like many other political science
majors I was dragged and they
put me down they strap me down and I
took the course and we began the
readings and the readings were one
failed experiment after another one
scientific thesis that later proved to
be wrong after another and I went up to
be instructor one day and I said
professor why are we learning all these
wrong theories and he said and this is a
phrase I will always remember it's the
one phrase I got out of college that
I've never forgotten he said we want you
to understand how science proceeds 
I inspire great difficulty it is it is
brutally difficult you never know what's
around the corner and the way it's
reported today is the scientist is the
Superman the he-man with the white coat
and on the other side are these
politicians and these ordinary citizens
and they don't understand what we
understand that's not the way science as
well science is filled with debate it's
filled with doubt scientific theories
are overthrown you know Einstein was
challenged in the 1930s by the Hitler
regime Hitler gathered together 200 of
Germany's most prominent scientists to
write a paper showing that the theory of
relativity was wrong he didn't want to
give Einstein any credit at all for
doing anything and they published this
paper and when Einstein traveled to
America once there was a reporter
meeting the ship and he interviewed
Einstein we said Professor Einstein how
can you challenge what 200 Germany's
best scientists are saying and he said
wonderful answer he said it doesn't take
200 scientists to prove me wrong it
takes one thing and that fact of course
never came up and you have people today I
mean you you watch these 24-hour news
services which put great pressure on the
reporters to come up with news every day
sometimes there isn't any sometimes
there isn't any they have to understand
how difficult this is how difficult
science is go back to your high school
class who were the people who went to
medical school and went into physical
chemistry there were the people at the
tops of the classes you didn't find
anybody
bottom of the class you know becoming a
becoming a physicist and you get the
scientific illiteracy and the belief
that we must you must worship the
scientist
oh no don't worship the scientist
question scientists you're seeing for
the first time now in the president's
daily briefings some real revelation of
scientific debate at a time of crisis
that when when for example a candidate
says we should bring in the experts my
answer I talk back to the television
set that's never arues with me this
would be what we should be saying is
which scientist you're talking about
team a or team b and if I can related
to other areas including the health care
area and including climate change I mean
there are newspapers that have made as a
matter of policy a decision not to admit
to their pages anyone who doubts the the
standard concerns about climate change
that's terrible what if those people
turn out to be right so what you haven't
what you have today and what really
concerns me is you have a great deal of
illiteracy on the part of the very
people who are teaching this literacy
I've learned so much from you over the
years and of reading Urgent Agenda and
you once wrote and I've got it written
here we're told that journalism is
history's first rough draft we have the
right to ask where's the second draft?
can you please elaborate further maybe
using the pandemic as a backdrop well
the the phrase of course was based on
Ben Bradley's phrase that history or
rather journalism is history's first draft
that was original with him and it
was really a warning to the public that
not everything printed on Tuesday is
going to be valid on Thursday because
the facts will change new facts will
come out a new interpretations will come
out I mean it wasn't until the 1960s
that we learned that Franklin Roosevelt
had a mistress throughout all his years
in the
White House and it really did change our
interpretation at least a personal
interpretation of Roosevelt now when I say
when Bradley said his history's rough
first draft the second draft has usually
come from historians years later they
were right but we haven't got time for
that the the papers will print and there
will be no great curiosity about whether
what we printed today was really active
I think that it is owed to the American
people to have in effect a formal
department in every newspaper called the
second draft it's like the cold-case
squad and in police departments the
years later you know years later facts
come out and they change what we know an
example I love to use as the example of
the decision by Harry Truman to use the
atomic bomb there are many many people
who have opinions at the time there were
many journalists who had opinions at the
time and then back in oh I guess it was
sixties and seventies they kind of was a
little industry in the academic world to
study the decision and it was perfectly
obvious what the purpose of the industry
was and that was to make Truman look bad
these were in left wing historians and
they studied when they study but to
their credit there was a professor at Stanford
in particular to his great credit over the
years he changed his mind and that's
that's a really good second draft
because he actually went about it as a
true historian but that is what we need
in journalism itself the journalist can
look over past editions and say you know
this rule wasn't quite accurate and it
gave an impression that people still
have this wrong and to correct things as
you go along because the way things are
now the sloppiness is so great that
stories go in and unless somebody
catches it on the outside
or unless the target of some new story
catches it and demands a retraction it
will stay in people's minds and people
have not been let's just say there have
been a lot of people that have not taken
the time to
do that no and I would observe that our
current president does that sometimes
with his he's from Queens yes he is you
know and if a lot of people don't don't
know if you've met enough New Yorkers
from Queens you want you get it you
understand I lived in Queens okay just
for a few years while we're here with
William Katz today and Bill Urgent
Agenda it reminded me of Winston
Churchill's action this day stamps so
what's the genesis of Urgent Agenda's
name where did that come from I thought
it up one day and it sounded good I wish
I could give you a sexier answer but it
just rolls off the lips you know I I
read of this very thing last night about
humanities courses where they interpret
what a writer meant and many writers
living writers who visited these courses
said I never meant that Arthur Miller once
that was asked why he kills Willy Loman
at the end of Death of a Salesmen and he said
look we were out of town in New Haven I
was very tired the other ending wasn't
work this time let's kill him at the end
everyone will be happy and it is amazing
how how that happens I think there is
far too much interpretation of writers
who never meant that the interpretation
in the first place this is just a name I
thought up one day it fit the idea of a
blog that dealt with important issues
and that's how it got its name was the
genesis of it did you did you sit down
one day and say aha I'm going to do
Urgent Agenda or is there something
motivating you I have a feeling it was
the writer and editor in you that you
said okay but that's my that's my gut
telling me that real story I I founded
Urgent Agenda in 2008 the Internet was
developing very rapidly I mean for goodness
sake I think the Internet in 1993 had 50
pages in fact I had one of the first
services and I gave it up there's not
enough here for me to do to do anything
about well it grew of course
dramatically and I thought here's an
opportunity to do what I've always
wanted to do which is to publish my own
newspaper I'm the editor I'm the
publisher editorial director and in any
any position you can name I fill but I
really of course I'm just one person but
I have complete independence I don't
have ask anyone's permission
I alone right now I like doing that I
would love to have interns because I
think I could teach them a great deal
but it is very dangerous today to have
interns if you have interns you have to
have lawyers and you have to have video
surveillance of everything you're doing
at least if you have female interns so I
decided not to go to go that route hire
their only male you'd be sued for you
know discrimination the other way sure
so what I enjoy practicing the kind of
journalism I believe in which is you notice
if you read Urgent Agenda that certain words
they are used but they use very rarely
one is the word may I can't stand news
date with news stories they tell us what
may happen
why don't they tell us what may not happen
I don't that's to me that's not real
journalist I mean unless something is
that important that much a possibility
that they feel they must do it I don't
do that I don't make predictions
occasionally I might but I don't make
predictions aren't you amused by these people
who say I predicted here last year well
he did then he got it right now
tell us about the other 20 predictions
and maybe that didn't come out right so
I got I don't think predictions I always
caution about the tentativeness of
information like polls if we run a poll
often say a poll is simply a snapshot in
time it may not last I'm very I try to
be careful about personal attacks
sometimes we will use them in a humorous
vein but I don't believe in the
viciousness of what is going on in
politics and I also believe very
strongly one of the things that is
missing from journalism today is a real
sense of history and by history I don't
mean Howard Zinn I mean real historians
you know I'll give you some examples we
hear the word progressive being used all
the time we hear the word liberal being
used all the time they're often used
interchangeably they are not in any way
interchange there was a progressive
movement there was a liberal movement
they split rather badly in the 1940s and
progressivism there's really a code word
for the hard left you know you can ask
them if you want to talk to them why is
it progressive to support dictatorial
governments that's what some of them do
but you don't find journalist to be like
CNN which has all the time it needs
you can't give a network more than 24
hours a day if somebody can find a way
to do it they'll be very rich but they
you know they have reporters they never
sit down and explain to the reader what
something really is what it means you
you have conventions coming up for
presidential election coming up I mean I remember
the days when we had reporters thinking
specifically at Len O'Connor who was a
Chicago-based reporter for NBC who
appeared on the air in his obese and
crumpled white shirt but he knew every
block of Chicago the reporter who
really knows the story who wasn't
thinking of the next assignment
but wants to do this really well we
don't have that kind of reporting I get the
feeling that many people who work at
these networks write for national
newspapers really don't know much about
the country I'll give you just an
example of that I once interviewed
Charles Kuralt who did the On the Road
series for CBS for years and I asked him
I said Charles in all the years of
traveling around the United States what
is the most important thing you learned
from talking to ordinary people and
without any hesitation he said I am
always amazed at how well informed
Americans are now that is something
journalists don't like to hear they face
it we're the ones who are well informed
who are these fools these deplorable but
the fact is that Americans are quite
well-informed they are interested they
may not be able to speak and in turn and
speak about an issue the way of Columbia
professor can speak about the issue but
if you look at rolling polls during
election season whenever something
important happens you see the polls
change immediately there is a big
audience of informed people I think
they're getting less and less informed
because the press is less and less good
but he was listening but the interview I
conducted with Kuralt was about 1972 so we
still had a very very large number of
members of the greatest generation still
alive we had World War Two veterans who
were in their 50s and very much
interested because they knew as my
editor at The New York Times used to say
that what happens in Asia can result
in the drafting of a boy in Des Moines
and they understood it from personal
experience oh yeah and what we have to
do is we have to improve every aspect of
our journalism beginning with vocabulary
words have lost their meaning they
really have lost their meaning I mean
when people talk about the Democratic
Party the traditional
Democratic Party would you please mister
reporter tell me what you mean by that
specifically what do you mean
we had a it actually isn't funny it's
serious but I found it funny there has
been a movement in New York City and it
happens periodically from the forces of
evil to change the nature of what is
known in New York City as the special
high schools these are the world-famous
schools in New York the High School of
Music and Art the famous school the
Bronx High School of Science Stuyvesant
High
these are elite schools which exist
only for elite students and to get in
you have to pass a very stiff
examination well we have a
superintendent of schools and in New
York City I don't live in New York City
by I know the subject who came to
the conclusion that the schools did not
reflect the population of New York City
they weren't supposed to they weren't
designed to they were supposed to
reflect the elite students in New York
City went on to do great things and he
published the figures and he said this
must not stand it's racism the exam is
racist and that's what the only way you
can interpret it well we have a
congresswoman from New York
AOC you probably heard of her she's we
call her Evita from the Bronx by way of
Westchester County and she took the
seven high schools and put their names
down and she said this is what failure
looks like now it turns out six of the
seven schools have student bodies that
are mostly non-white and you say that's
what failure looks like doesn't she
think that that's what success looks
like but then you get into the subject
of coded language the are Asian
wonderful Asian students I'm not
considered by the radical leftist to be
known white it's terrible I mean it's
really terrible the term person of color
is a culture
I'm not saying in a derogatory way at
all but I wish some journalists would
say let's understand what we're talking
about here we're talking about one group
but other groups have been left out of
that definition and they and they resent
it yeah you know Asian students recently
sued Harvard University over admissions
they have becoming politically active
and the way they're treated but it's
things like that we have to begin at the
beginning I feel that the profession
it's not a profession journalism is not
a profession they call it sad but it's
not should do what airlines do it just
is every six months I think some
airlines I know you know that business
correct me if I'm wrong there pilots go
right back into the simulators and go
right back to basic training and they
have to they check them out on all the
basics of flight I think we we need that
in journalism I think we should demand
that college prefessors on their
sabbaticals not do something in their
field I won't be a carpenter for a year
do something that you've never done that
was expose you to a new world and they
basically the people in journalism
should go back for a week to a really
good journalism school and they're very
two of them or to a journalism program
and relearn the basics and I think
that's what we have to begin we're in
trouble with journalism we really are
yeah my dad is my dad was a journalist
he was an official US Army War
Correspondent and an editor
Stars-and-Stripes at the end of World
War Two so I grew up with a lot of the
same standards for reporters and editors
so I I knew there was a my dad
would say I'd asked him one time dad why
are you reading the Sun-Times you got
the Sunday Sun Times and the Chicago
Tribune on Sundays why do you do that
why not just one he said son I want to I
want to see the slant to the news yes
and I thought okay but even back then we
were talking in the 70s and into the 80s
when I was becoming more
aware even then they weren't as what's
the right word they weren't as they
weren't that far apart now it's all over
the map I mean well yes well that's
right you can read two papers covering
the same story and they're entirely
different and that's not what the news
pages were supposed to be about Joseph
Pulitzer was really the hero journalism
which is why there's a Pulitzer Prize at
the beginning of the 20th century in the
19th century newspapers actually were
reflective of political parties there
was no claim to objectivity it was a
democrat or republican paper but look
who wanted to change that he wanted to
separate the news pages from the
editorial pages
he was so clear his idea was to
achieving grandly quite well in fact
until I think the 16 weeks came along
and people had the ideas of something
called the new journalism which would be
on a high intellectual level I remember
when I was on the Time as the executive
editor Clifton Daniel's said I want to know
what the golfer was thinking well
anybody who's ever been in real
journalism and he was in real journalism
knows that's a ridiculous story the only
person who knows what the golfer was
thinking was the golfer which means
there's no way to check the story he'll
tell you what he wants to tell you
and that's it and they and and the we
also must realize that the quality of
our journalism is a direct reflection of
the quality of our schools they are the
feeder system to journalism at one time
very few journalists went to college
they went directly from high school
became copy boys and copy girls and they
worked their way up
today all Germans will are college
graduates and their journalism is going
to reflect the standards that they
learned in college and those standards
I'm sorry to say have slipped
considerably
yeah well I know you went to the
University of Chicago and I grew up
and I remember this news bureau was so
did I yeah that the City News Bureau was
the I think was boot camp for reporters
she it was and and it was they did a
great job there I mean some of the best
reporters and I grew up watching them
reading them and that was a great
training ground yes it was there's a
Chicago was a great city to cover yeah
yeah if you could you survived you know
where there's a will there's a relative
yes my dad also used to say that
everything is related and the big
problem is seeing the relationships and
you've worked for three very different
entities you're a CIA officer you worked
as an editor for New York Times Magazine
and then you were a pre-interview
pre-show interviewer you'll give me the
correct terminology
talent coordinator talent coordinator
for the Tonight Show Starring Johnny
Carson yes and so can you connect those
dots for us where's the chronology
there what what started when well I went
to University of Chicago and the
Graduate School of Journalism at
Columbia at the University of Chicago I
was the funny I was the news director of
WUCB I want you to know that the I
wouldn't say it was a small station but
it didn't have an antenna and in order
to hear it you had to plug your radio
into the sockets in your dormitory room
which contains some sort of a wiring
system that went to our studio and they
were the only people who could hear us
so it was you know it was not a
world-famous station we didn't expect to
hear Edward R. Murrow on WUCB you heard me so
that's that's where that started but I
also was an intern for a U.S. Senator
named Paul Douglas my days
as liberal and a great war hero by the
way which is why there's a Paul Douglass
Center at Parris Island he was a
great Marine it was the oldest man in
American history to go to the Marine
Corps training and fought in combat
Peleliu and Okinawa where he's very
severely wounded so I got the bug for
Public Affairs who traveled around
Illinois during the 60 campaign we
traveled with Kennedy learned an
enormous amount about what a political
campaign really is then after that I went
to the graduate School of Journalism I did I decided
not to go into journalism directly I
went to the CIA
an interesting thing to do and it really
was one of these days right out of a
Hollywood movie they advertised they
advertised for people and if they like
your resume they called you and you're
interviewed by I wasn't and I won't
mention his name because it's still
classified ironically but they have a
meeting somewhere and this guy was right
out of central casting
he was Ivy League and oh you had a
feeling he had stepped right off the
Mayflower you know and into America and
he was he was the image of the of the
intelligence officer and I took a test
and they liked me and and so they hired
me and so and I found myself right in
the CIA right before the Cuban Missile
Crisis and I was in the CIA during that
crisis on the same floor where that
crisis was being handled I walked in one
morning and one of the upper floors and
I didn't recognize when I was cables all
over the place and then wires and on
each door where we used to just walk in
with a code box and they stopped me and
they said we have new installations this
morning
correction of the director and your
number and they gave you the number of
the code box so I could get it to my
office
and I walked in and there was it there
was some guys at a big table looking at
pictures and one of them called Mills
was I've gotten to know and he said you
want to see some pictures what kind of
pictures and they were the first
pictures of the missiles on the ships
coming in to Cuba and I was absolutely
amazed at what we had and my first
thought was what is going on in Khrushchev's
mind I mean he knows we have this
capability and I learned the
capabilities the National Photographic
Interpretation Center they were
remarkable and I did go through those
ten days and they did take out the red
books which were being focused in the
event Washington was attacked where to
go if he survived I had an apartment
about a quarter of a mile from the White
House and I didn't think those red books weren't going
to do me any good and you know my first concern was I had
just bought my first car you know but
the ticket books we each month they a
certain amount on the car and my first
question was If I'm vaporized do my parents
have to make the car payments that's the kind
of thing you'd bring about but it was it
was fascinating was it so that wasn't
just before the Cuban Missile Crisis
1962 which is about was that before or
after Dr. No came out I think it was
it was that same year I think it
was later in the year that maybe it
wasn't I think are you thinking of that
or seven or seven days Dr. Strangelove
I'm thinking Bond James Bond
yeah so I don't see you know hey sign me
up for that
so what attracted you to serving there I
mean what was it that I I think that
just fascination I did not know if
I wanted to make it my career and I
eventually decided not to but just
fascination to be on the inside of
America's spy agency and and of course
you firstly you learn about intelligence
is that most of it is deadly dull you
know most information gathering eighty
percent actually is gathered openly but
even what isn't
most of it is not information that you
must know to live your life like the
dimensions of the new German cement
factory I mean this is not something I
want to discuss on my next date the
dates were interested either you know I
had my first service in CIA was on the
open side well you could say you worked
with the CIA the second part was on the
dark side now people say well how can
you be open and then go to the dark side
and the answer is that for certain
people they would put you on the dark
side under what they called Fragile
Cover I wasn't deep cover and the
purpose was that you would that that
there was no direct written relationship
with the agency so that if you got
tagged overseas of you in Germany and
the Russians wanted to expose you and
embarrass the United States and they
knew who you were they had no
documentation then it was a light a form
of light coverage just to protect the
country against embarrassment the deep
cover agents never came anywhere near
the CIA I mean they would they you know
that was a whole different thing but I
left and decided well this is not what I
want to do for the rest of my life and I
hadn't had that do my army service so I
enlisted in the National Guard and I got
out of the army the hour President
Kennedy was assassinated
we drove into the den from Fort Dix
which is where I was assigned Fort Dix
was probably the easiest of the basic
training centers or as they called it
the candy-ass army
I mean I was the second part after basic
training was they put me in a job but
they actually I am not kidding you by
the way where they actually had flowers
on the chow tables and they had little
I think they put all the misfits who
they suspect it would probably be enemy
agents in this section because we were
literate and you didn't have to go to
they never called reveile just were told
what time to show up and very very light
very very light I mean I actually I
everything I had would a good time in
the Army out of the army and again I
delayed my entry into journalism because
I got an offer to work at the Hudson
Institute which is a national security
foreign policy research and could be a
assistant to Herman Kahn Herman Kahn was
one of the great strategist at the Cold
War very controversial man because
people thought he was Dr. Strangelove
and I found that fascinating year and
then I got an offer for the New York
Times where I stayed for I think five
years or six years that was that was it
was it was a quite an experience because
my first job at the Times to be assistant
to one of the editors from actually the
semi-retired and because he was had been
so prestigious
they gave him an office on the 14th
floor which is the top floor of the
Times where very few people from The
Times ever go very few people have ever
been on the 14th floor and they didn't
have an office for me there and so 
Bill was roaming the halls no no it's a
much better story the publisher Punch
who I was introduced to immediately Punch
few people ever met Punch said you know
we don't have an office for you Bill but
we do have the safe room which is the
New York Times keeps it safe and it's
big enough for a desk
would you mind being I was tempted
from the partnership I think I could
handle this you know
I mean I was walking into executive
offices I learned about the transfer of
the first American troops to Vietnam
sitting on the desk of Arthur A.
Sulzburger who was the chairman of the board of
the New York Times and who did elderly
man he didn't come in regularly he was the
only one who had a TV set and I knew the
president was going to speak so I just
walked in sat on his desk and watched
history happened and write on the wall
next to me was a bar relief map of Korea
that had been given to him during the
Korean War by General MacArthur so for a
kid going into journalism to have that
opportunity to be on that floor where
all the major decisions were made and
when Scotty Reston became executive
editor he had an office on the news
floor but he also had an office on the
14th floor and I would go by say hello
as saying hello to a friend and I was
spoiled rotten I mean I was absolutely
spoiled rotten
yeah I mean it's and I think that when I
later went to the magazine as an editor
I could sense a tinge of resentment on
the part of some of the guys who's been
with the Times for 40 years who the hell is
this kid he knows the publisher
he knows the chairman I realized that
wasn't doing me any good I wasn't making
any fast friends so but but it was a
very interesting experience and and then
you went to the Tonight Show you know
people have questioned me about that said
how can you go from the New York Times
the you know the so-called premiere
newspaper to a show where it's all
about humor and fiction and made-up
stories and I said think about that for
a minute it wasn't that difficult to
transition it was to a degree
somewhat embarrassing people wondering
how can you leave New York Times
becasue there was the the belief
that you never left in New York Times i
mean I used to say to people there were
dead bodies sitting at desks they never
wanted to leave and and why because once
you made it through the Times it was the
pinnacle of journalism so-called people
would stay there just to say because
it's to go so they could go to parties
and say I'm Jones of the New York Times
they loved the institutional prestige
one lesson I learned in life is
one of the worst traps you can get into
is the institutional prestige trap of
going to an organization because
it's prestigious hating what you're
doing and never going anywhere just so
you can say you're their big mistake
that a lot of people make yeah a lot of
young people are making that mistake man
oh yes very much so as a talent
coordinator for The Tonight Show your
job was interviewing guests and I'm
taking a wild guess not a wild guess
maybe an educated guess you were doing
pre interviews so that Johnny would have
some talking points prepared in his mind
for that particular guest
that's exactly right well they're
basically set several functions of the
talent coordinator some at some shows
that called segment producers we in
effect produced a segment of the show
your first responsibility was to find
talent new talent you know it's easy to
pull James Stewart's name out of a hat
that's easy but to find the next James
Stewart that's hard and so we we were
always on the lookout for talent it was
actually a pretty nice job to have
because you got tickets to all the
Broadway shows you got tickets to
anything you wanted to see and what job
perks oh and they really were perks and
you took people to lunch and it was very
nice but once somebody was booked the
next phase of the job was to 
preinterview The Tonight Show was
not a scripted show but it was not a
completely unrehearsed show Johnny
always had notes as you said before
about what this person was going to say
what stories the person was going to
tell little things about the person's
background and those notes went to two
people Johnny and the head writer
and the head writer and his staff would
write in little responses that Johnny
could give to the talking points but the
talking points and then the responses to
the talking points and those were the
jokes so it was a it was a it was a
responsible job you had to in effect
shaped the person before the show make
certain that the person that the people
who appeared on the show including stars
understood it was Johnny's show and make
that person look good right that was a
big deal for him a very big deal well he
was mentored the importance of mentors
something that is also very important I
don't think kids today get proper
mentoring he was mentored by Jack Benny
was one of his boyhood idols and one of
the things that he would always stressed
to Johnny is Johnny the whole show has
to be good not just you if you think
you can be good everyone else can flop
and you have a show you won't have a
show it's it's your job to make everyone
good and he told the story of the people
who would ask him Jack I heard your show
last night on radio why do you give the
best lines to other people and he said I
don't really care who has the best lines
all I care about is people standing
around the water cooler the next day at
work saying wasn't the Jack Benny show
good one and that's that's the way you
put on the show yeah it's it's all about
entertaining the audience yes you're
there for the audience that's the key
the the audio the audience is the key
and I wish some people today would
recognize that it is not an opportunity
for the host of expressions political
views yes
what would surprise people about your
role there I don't think anything would
surprise them I think I had a good
background for it
I think journalism was a good background
for I also was was was a comedy writer I
started my independent career by writing
for Bob Newhart and I got to write for
Bob Newhart by doing one of the
stupidest things you could do in the
business I mean you know it's always the
story of the guy who hits the jackpot by
doing something dumb because he doesn't
know it's done yeah and I thought well I
have some ideas for some comedy things
and I always like Bob I saw one of his
earliest performances in Chicago but he
was still an accountant always liked him
I thought I think I'm gonna write
something for Bob Newhart gosh gosh
jolly whiz how would I do that
well right out of the Hollywood movie I
would write it I would find out who is
agent was and I would send it to him
well of course in 99.9999 percent of the
cases nobody will read it you know it'll
just lie on a desk but I did call the I
think one of the Hollywood unions I
think it was probably after and I said
could I find out Bob Newhart agent
Yes it's open information they gave me
the name they gave me the address
and I said dear sir I have always liked
Johnny not Johnny Carson Bob Newhart and I
have written something for him would you
please read it and send it to him and if
you're interested just call me and sure
enough the agent read it he loved it he
sent it to Bob Newhart who loved it and
they bought it and that was how I got
myself in that business Wow and they're
absolute amateurism well sometimes it's
easier to get from it
forgiveness than permission right
it is what it is and and you know I I'm
I think back to Johnny Carson he was a
very talented and very he was very
complex - yes most highly successful
people are then you have Bob Newhart was
Bob Newhart your boss oh no no no no I
just wrote to him and I didn't know him I
never met him he bought the material but
that can't be signed by William Morris and sold
material to Bob Newhart and then when I
joined the Tonight Show
he would be periodically be the guest
host and that was the first time we met
Wow and we didn't keep up a contact
that was one of my mistakes I I wish I
had kept up contact with him but there was
no professional reason to when I read
that that you were a writer form I've
been a big fan of Bob Newhart for so
long he's such a great storyteller which
is what we need more of and the fact
that he's still at it he's still
performing and I guess that kind of
longevity says a lot about his talent
yes well he was kind of an original he
did these telephone routines you know
where you imagine what was being said on
the other end and they were hilarious
and that's what I did when I when I said
my material out I knew history style and
I wrote it I wrote a sketch about a
college dean being tied up in his office
by protesting students and getting a
phone call out and what he was telling
the people of the other end and them not
believing it is that on video somewhere
no it was used at his nightclub act and
I don't don't actually have I guess I
have a copy a written copy of it somewhere
okay I and the second thing I sent to
him was a you know these new stories this
is the way he would say you know these
news stories about birth control pills
where they're 98% effective and the
sketch was about a doctor calling the
woman who's in the two-percent
explaining it to her yes I wrote a yes hello
hello Florence It's Dr. Kane how ya
doing Florence have I got some news for you
I can hear him doing too I'm crying it's too good
I think there's a three-way a three-way
tie and my favorite Bob Newhart sketches
Sir Walter Raleigh calling the office
bus driver training and then I guess my
all-time favorite was the miss Mrs. Grace
L. Ferguson Storm Door and Airline
Company yeah those three just kill me
they just kill me and it's so creative
and so you mentioned something about
which I really liked
having a desk in the New York Times safe
was that where the money was kept or was
that were like the the crown jewels of
information were kept crown jewels
didn't kept there it actually was not
where the money was kept they called it
the safe room I think the time has kept
its money bangs like sure most companies
but the publisheer walked in one day
and he said I wonder what's in that safe
and he said I don't think we have the
key to earth or at the combination
rather than that he but he knew John
Mosler who was the head of it was a
Mosler safe just I'm gonna call him and
they can send over these crews they can
open any of their safes and he called them
and they came with the crew open the
safe and inside was a Pulitzer Prize and
I remember the moment when they took it
out and they showed it to the publisher
they won a lot of Pulitzer Prizes
but usually they kept more visible sight
than this Pulitzer Prize but inside
was a Pulitzer Prize that's what was
in the safe so so I want to I want to
wrap things up a bit to get to your
suggestions because this becoming better
editors of our personal news feeds
because there's so many sources of
millions of sources including this one
what suggestions do you have for getting
more balance and some objectivity you
know uh maybe it's how you edit Urgent
Agenda but I think people need I think
they need some tools the questions to
ask about when they're looking at
something how do I know I'm I'm not
being played by this article what do you
think well I think first of all it is a
function that shouldn't be necessary the
public shouldn't have to do that they
have to do it today and they do it two
ways it's interesting that the public
has detected there's no question that
the public has detected bias and it's it
stems from the fact that the newspapers
or in the press generally has violated
one of the fundamental rules and
journalism which is which always leads
to trouble and that is you cannot tell
people they don't see what they actually
see
and when you put on a news story and you
tell them there's no crime problem
this is in your imagination and your
your mother-in-law just got hit over
the head right outside the window you're
not doing too well as a journalist I
think confirmation bias can only be
fought by the pub by and in public
that is already informed through other
sources they can fight it newspaper by
newspaper they can refuse to watch a
television station which is clearly
happening with CNN I mean the audience for
CNN is one third of one percent of the
American people and they call themselves
the first name in news I mean that's
that's not the first name in the news and
also a better educational system I think
everything I have always believed that
every student graduated from high school
should have to take a course it may only
be a three week course in the
Constitution everybody should know the
Constitution it shouldn't just need and
they should have to take a course and
yes they should have to they should be
required to take a really good course in
how to read a newspaper and the schools
used to have courses like that and they
would teach kids the newspapers would
co-operate the kids would subscribe and
somebody would teach them well this is
when you look at a
story like this these are the things
you should ask and that can be educated
into people to some degree but it's a
long haul I think the change will only
come generation generationally
I think this an incident not incident
but this crisis we're going through today
might have some effect but I I can't
guarantee you know yeah it's it's I I'm
very happy that we have other sources of
news when I when I was growing up in
Chicago we had the three major networks
we had WGN WCFL we had WTTW we had the
two newspapers Tribune and Sun Times and
so those were kind of our major news
outlets we also had some radio stations
and and again the quality of that
reporting was was as you said very good
at least when I was growing up I know
before the Vietnam War it was a little
different but after the Vietnam War
there was a lot more hard news they
really put their nose to the grindstone
and so I consider myself blessed for
watching them in action and I don't
think I don't think later generations
have been blessed by that so it's really
about asking what's really going on here
I mean how are we how are we being
played today it's it's a significant
problem it's a significant problem no
it's it's not a new problem right it's
been pointed out that in 1936 for
example virtually all the major
newspaper publishers of the United
States for Republicans and yet Roosevelt
won in a landslide well one of the
reasons he won in a landslide is that
the reporters were democrats and they
they kind of straightened out the
publishers on the news pages so you know
you can have bias within papers and
still have a reasonable product but I
think there has to be a sense of
seriousness on the part of the news
reader or the news viewer a sense that
these are serious times that is one of
the things that's lacking you know the
word crisis is vastly overused but I
think if we do have a crisis in this
country a continuing crisis it's a
maturity crisis this is in many respects
a very immature country it's it said it
wasn't at one time as I said you know
when I was a little boy he could go down
a block where I lived or any block in
America and there's Phil who was a b-17
tail gunner through next to Phil
next-door neighbor was a guy who got hit
by a mortar shell and will be limping
the rest of his life on the other side
of Phil was the guy who was merchant
captain was sunk twice they had lived real
lives and we don't have that today we
don't have a sense of seriousness and
the sense of danger the sense that this
would really do us in and we'd better take
care of it that the young generation
nothing the good kids I mean they're
sure as fine as any kids we ever
produced but they have never had that
sense of strife that you know I could be
killed tomorrow morning and without that
you're not gonna get a better person and
if they didn't grow up but during the
Cold War no they don't know what the if
anything they think we were the
aggressors because the schools are so
blessed me today and it's extending down
into elementary school and they did not
feel the sense of personal involvement
at that previous generations oh all
right I mean you know you see your son
going off to war you know what you know
what the consequence or in the
depression grew forward we're to have a
quarter for milk was a big deal and they
grew up in that era and the kids today
grew up in a very soft air and they
don't
they're very fortunate they certainly
are it was paid for by a lot of people
it sure was blood and money it certainly
was and they they I think many do I mean
especially in the heartland of the
country many do but boy will you look at
some of the attitudes and the
universities that is a that that correct
view of history that idea of sacrifice
is a very rare one
well I've I could have you go on for
probably another hour just on Hollywood
and what's going on out there but our
time is is I told you I try keeping it
to a dull roar you enjoyed it so much
believe me I'm I I thank you so much for
your insights and your service and for
joining me
William Katz of Urgent Agenda dot com thank
you well thank you for having me well to
our viewers thank you too and there are
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leave you with a quote from Rudyard
Kipling and he said let me get this
right my notes and my there we go
Kipling said I keep six honest serving
men they taught me all I knew their
names were what and why and when and how
and where and who and until next week
there you are
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