MY QUEST, THE HUMAN QUEST,
IS TO KNOW REALITY.
HOW TO KNOW REALITY?
TRY TO FIND BEDROCK.
DIG DOWN, SEE BOTTOM.
OF WHAT IS REALITY MADE?
WHAT ARE THE MOST BASIC
BUILDING BLOCKS
FROM WHICH THE COSMOS
IS CONSTRUCTED?
ATOMS, PARTICLES, MASS-ENERGY?
QUANTUM MECHANICS,
FORCES, FIELDS?
SPACE AND TIME. SPACE-TIME?
TINY STRINGS
WITH MANY DIMENSIONS?
A NEW CANDIDATE
IS "INFORMATION."
INFORMATION?
ISN'T INFORMATION, WELL,
TOO ABSTRACT?
A DESCRIPTIVE IDEA,
NOT AN ENERGETIC POWER?
THE PHYSICIST
JOHN ARCHIBALD WHEELER
SAID IT BEST: "IT FROM BIT."
"IT" MEANING ALL STUFF
IN THE UNIVERSE.
"BIT" MEANING INFORMATION.
"IT FROM BIT."
DOES INFORMATION
CREATE THE COSMOS?
I'M ROBERT LAWRENCE KUHN,
AND CLOSER TO TRUTH
IS MY JOURNEY TO FIND OUT.
I GO TO VIEQUES ISLAND,
PUERTO RICO.
WHY THIS RUGGED PLACE
WITH DENSE FORESTS?
WHY HERE TO INVESTIGATE
INFORMATION IN THE COSMOS?
A UNIQUE GATHERING IS HERE,
ORGANIZED BY THE FOUNDATIONAL
QUESTIONS INSTITUTE--FQXI.
PHYSICISTS AND COSMOLOGISTS
WHO DARE TO THINK
"OUTSIDE THE BOX"
OF CONVENTIONAL WISDOM,
"OVER THE HORIZON"
OF CURRENT SCIENCE.
THE GATHERING HAS
AN ORGANIZING PRINCIPLE--
THE PHYSICS OF INFORMATION.
AND HERE'S THE DEEP QUESTION:
IS INFORMATION
THE ULTIMATE STUFF
FROM WHICH PHYSICAL REALITY
IS BUILT?
WILL THE IDEAS AND ARGUMENTS
OF THESE SCIENTISTS
BE AS TANGLED AS THE ROOTS
AND BRANCHES OF THESE FORESTS?
HOW TO CLEAR AWAY
THE UNDERBRUSH OF OLD IDEAS?
I START AS A SKEPTIC.
"INFORMATION AS REALITY"
SEEMS SO OUTLANDISH, SO TRENDY--
A METAPHOR ON STEROIDS.
I SPEAK WITH AN EXPERT
IN QUANTUM INFORMATION
WHO DEFENDS THE STRONG IDEA
THAT INFORMATION IS INDEED
MOST FUNDAMENTAL--
MIT PROFESSOR SETH LLOYD.
ROBERT: SETH,
I'M ALL FOR COMPUTERS.
I UNDERSTAND HOW INFORMATION
AND BITS WORK,
BUT YOU WANT ME
TO DO SOMETHING MORE.
YOU WANT ME TO BELIEVE THAT
THE WHOLE UNIVERSE IS A COMPUTER
AND THAT COMPUTATION IS AT
THE FOUNDATIONS OF EVERYTHING.
HOW CAN YOU THINK THAT WAY?
SETH LLOYD: [LAUGHING]
WELL, ISN'T IT OBVIOUS?
SO ONE WAY WE COULD TAKE
THAT STATEMENT
THAT THE UNIVERSE IS A COMPUTER
AS A METAPHOR.
IT'S LIKE, HEY, WE LIVE
IN THE AGE OF COMPUTATION,
AND WHEN YOU'VE GOT A HAMMER,
EVERYTHING LOOKS LIKE A NAIL.
ROBERT: IT USED TO BE
A TELEPHONE EXCHANGE.
SETH: IT USED TO BE A TELEPHONE
EXCHANGE.
BEFORE THAT IT WAS A GIANT PIECE
OF CLOCKWORK, RIGHT.
SO NOW WE HAVE COMPUTERS.
YOU KNOW, NEXT THING
THE UNIVERSE IS JUST GONNA BE
A BIG SMART PHONE.
BUT WHEN I SAY THAT THE UNIVERSE
IS A COMPUTER
I'M ACTUALLY MAKING
A TECHNICAL, SCIENTIFIC,
AND MATHEMATICAL STATEMENT.
WHAT IS A COMPUTER?
OKAY, LET'S BE PRECISE
ABOUT THIS.
THE COMPUTERS THAT WE HAVE
ON OUR DESKTOPS
OR THE COMPUTERS THAT WE HAVE
IN OUR SMART PHONES
ARE DEVICES
THAT PROCESS INFORMATION
IN A SYSTEMATIC FASHION.
THEY'RE PHYSICAL SYSTEMS THAT
CONTAIN BITS OF INFORMATION.
IN A CONVENTIONAL
ELECTRONIC COMPUTER
A BIT IS A LITTLE CAPACITOR,
LIKE A BUCKET FOR ELECTRONS.
AND IF THE BUCKET IS UNCHARGED,
SO THERE ARE NO ELECTRONS
OVER HERE,
THEN WE CALL THAT A ZERO.
IF YOU PUT A WHOLE BUNCH
OF ELECTRONS OVER HERE
SO THE BUCKET IS CHARGED
FULL OF ELECTRONS,
THEN WE CALL THAT A ONE.
AND THEN WHEN YOU FLIP BITS,
YOU LIKE, YOU KNOW,
MOVE THE ELECTRONS
BACK AND FORTH,
SO YOU DUMP THE ELECTRONS OUT,
YOU PUT THEM AROUND,
YOU PUT THEM BACK IN,
AND THAT IS FLIPPING BITS,
AND AT BOTTOM ALL A COMPUTER IS
IS A DEVICE THAT FLIPS BITS
IN A SYSTEMATIC FASHION.
ROBERT: OKAY.
SETH: AND IN FACT, IN ORDER
FOR IT TO DO THE KINDS OF THINGS
THAT OUR CELL PHONES
AND THAT OUR COMPUTERS
AND OUR CAMERAS ACTUALLY DO,
THE ACTUAL ARCHITECTURE
BY WHICH THEY FLIP THE BITS
CAN BE VERY SIMPLE.
AND WHAT IS COMPLICATED
IS THE PROGRAM THAT WE PUT IN
TO SAY, OKAY, HAVE SIRI
TALK TO ME
IN THAT SEDUCTIVE YET CHASTE
VOICE THAT SHE USES.
RIGHT?
OKAY, SO A COMPUTER HAS
A TECHNICAL DEFINITION.
IT'S A PHYSICAL SYSTEM THAT
BREAKS UP INFORMATION INTO BITS,
AND THAT FLIPS THOSE BITS
IN A SYSTEMATIC FASHION.
SO WHAT IS THE UNIVERSE?
THE UNIVERSE
IS A PHYSICAL SYSTEM.
NOW WE'VE KNOWN
FOR MORE THAN A HUNDRED YEARS
THAT AT BOTTOM, EVERY ATOM,
EVERY ELEMENTARY PARTICLE
CARRIES WITH IT
BITS OF INFORMATION.
SO AN ELECTRON FOR INSTANCE,
IT HAS A SPIN.
THE SPIN IS QUANTIZED
BY THE LAWS OF QUANTUM MECHANICS
THAT SAYS IT CAN ONLY TAKE
TWO DISTINGUISHABLE VALUES:
SPINNING UP LIKE THAT
OR SPINNING DOWN LIKE THAT.
SO IT'S A BIT.
YOU COULD CALL SPINNING UP
A ZERO;
YOU COULD CALL
SPINNING DOWN A ONE;
BUT IT'S A BIT WHETHER YOU
CALL IT A ZERO OR A ONE OR NOT.
SO AT BOTTOM, THE UNIVERSE
CONSISTS OF INFORMATION.
EVERY ELEMENTARY PARTICLE
CARRIES INFORMATION.
JUST LIKE A BIT IN A COMPUTER,
EXCEPT SMALLER.
AND WHEN TWO ELECTRONS EACH
CARRYING A BIT OF INFORMATION
COME AND THEY INTERACT
WITH EACH OTHER,
THOSE BITS FLIP, AND THEY FLIP
IN A SYSTEMATIC WAY.
THEY PERFORM A LOGIC OPERATION.
BUT IF AN ORDINARY COMPUTER
IS JUST A SYSTEM THAT CONTAINS
BITS OF INFORMATION
THAT INTERACT WITH EACH OTHER
AND FLIP
IN A SYSTEMATIC FASHION,
THEN THE UNIVERSE AT BOTTOM
IS JUST A BIG GIGANTIC,
MAYBE INFINITE SYSTEM
THAT CONTAINS BITS OF
INFORMATION AT SMALL SCALES.
THOSE BITS ARE INTERACTING
WITH EACH OTHER
IN A SYSTEMATIC FASHION.
SO THE SUBSTRATE, THE KIND
OF COMPUTATIONAL SUBSTRATE
IS THERE.
AND THE ONLY ADDITIONAL
QUESTION IS,
IS IT REALLY TECHNICALLY
A DIGITAL COMPUTER?
SO CAN THE BIT FLIPPING
THAT GOES ON IN THE UNIVERSE
DO THE SAME KIND OF BIT FLIPPING
THAT GOES ON
IN OUR SMART PHONES?
WELL, I DON'T EVEN HAVE TO ARGUE
ABOUT THAT
BECAUSE OUR SMART PHONES
ARE PART OF THE UNIVERSE,
SO OF COURSE THE KIND
OF BIT FLIPPING
THAT GOES ON IN OUR SMART PHONES
IS ALLOWED AND INDEED ENCOURAGED
BY THE BIT FLIPPING THAT GOES ON
IN THE UNIVERSE AS A WHOLE.
AND EVEN MORE REMARKABLY
WE CAN BUILD QUANTUM COMPUTERS
THAT STORE BITS ON INDIVIDUAL
ATOMS AND ELEMENTARY PARTICLES
AND ACTUALLY DO THIS COMPUTATION
AT THIS MICROSCOPIC SCALE.
SO THE CLAIM THAT THE UNIVERSE
IS A GIANT COMPUTER
IS NOT JUST
SOME METAPHORICAL CLAIM;
IT'S ACTUALLY A TECHNICAL CLAIM
ABOUT WHAT IS A COMPUTER.
SO WHEN I SAY THAT THE UNIVERSE
IS A COMPUTER,
I'M SIMPLY STATING A SCIENTIFIC
AND MATHEMATICAL FACT.
ROBERT: SETH SEEMS SURE
THAT INFORMATION
IS NOT JUST A WAY
OF APPRECIATING OR APPROXIMATING
HOW THE UNIVERSE WORKS,
BUT THE LITERAL,
MOST FUNDAMENTAL WAY
IT ACTUALLY WORKS.
THE UNIVERSE IS NOT
LIKE A COMPUTER
AS EXPLANATORY METAPHOR;
THE UNIVERSE IS REALLY
A COMPUTER AS SCIENTIFIC FACT.
THE CLAIM IS MONUMENTAL.
IF SETH IS RIGHT,
REALITY MUST CHANGE.
BUT MUST IT?
PERHAPS SETH IS SO GENERALIZING
THE CONCEPT OF COMPUTING
SUCH THAT THE UNIVERSE BECOMES
A COMPUTER ALMOST BY DEFINITION?
CALTECH COSMOLOGIST SEAN CARROLL
HAS STRONG OPINIONS
ABOUT WHAT'S BEDROCK;
HE'S WRITTEN ON TIME
AND FUNDAMENTAL PARTICLES.
DOES HE HAVE A STRONG OPINION
ABOUT INFORMATION?
SEAN, SOME PEOPLE WILL NOW TALK
ABOUT INFORMATION
BEING NOT JUST A METAPHOR
BUT RATHER SOMETHING
THAT'S EVEN MORE FUNDAMENTAL,
THAT INFORMATION ITSELF IS WHAT
GIVES RISE TO EVERYTHING ELSE,
LIKE QUANTUM MECHANICS.
HOW DO YOU SEE THAT?
SEAN CARROLL: I TEND TO THINK
OF INFORMATION
IN VERY SIMILAR WAYS
THAT I WOULD THINK ABOUT IDEAS
LIKE ENTROPY OR ENERGY,
WHICH IS TO SAY THEY ARE WAYS
OF DESCRIBING REALITY,
BUT THEY'RE NOT ABSOLUTELY
FUNDAMENTAL,
NECESSARY INGREDIENTS
OF ANY DESCRIPTION.
WE COULD GET ALONG WITHOUT
TALKING ABOUT INFORMATION
JUST LIKE WE COULD GET ALONG
WITHOUT EVER TALKING
ABOUT ENERGY.
I DON'T THINK INFORMATION IS
DEEPER THAN THE LAWS OF PHYSICS.
I THINK IT GIVES US
A USEFUL HANDLE.
I THINK OF IT AS A DESCRIPTION,
BUT I ONLY HESITATE
IN SAYING THAT
BECAUSE IT SOUNDS LIKE
I'M DOWNPLAYING IT.
I THINK IT'S
AN INCREDIBLY USEFUL HANDLE,
A REALLY SHARP TOOL THAT HELPS
US UNDERSTAND HOW REALITY WORKS.
BUT IT IS A TOOL.
IT IS NOT AN ABSOLUTELY
ESSENTIAL PART
OF REALITY ITSELF.
ROBERT:
WHEN YOU SAY IT'S A TOOL,
IS THAT LIKE A MATHEMATICAL
EQUATION IS A TOOL,
WHICH IS EITHER AN ACCURATE
OR AN APPROXIMATION OF REALITY?
BECAUSE PEOPLE WHO DEFEND THIS
WOULD SAY THAT THE INFORMATION
IS CONTAINED
IN EVERY OPERATION
THAT THE UNIVERSE DOES
IS A COMPUTATION,
AND THEREFORE BECAUSE OF THAT
INFORMATION IS MORE FUNDAMENTAL
TO WHAT THE UNIVERSE DOES.
SEAN: YEAH, I, I HEAR WORDS
LIKE THAT ALL THE TIME,
ABOUT HOW EVERYTHING
IS A COMPUTATION,
WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE UNIVERSE
IN ITS EVOLUTION
IS INFORMATION BEING PROCESSED.
I THINK THAT GIVES ME AN ANGLE
TO LOOK AT THE UNIVERSE.
BUT I DON'T THINK
IT'S A NECESSARY
OR FUNDAMENTAL ANGLE.
I DON'T IMAGINE
A QUESTION IN PHYSICS
ABOUT HOW THE UNIVERSE CHANGES
FROM ONE THING INTO ANOTHER
THAT I COULDN'T ANSWER WITHOUT
EVER TALKING ABOUT INFORMATION.
ROBERT:
SO HOW WOULD YOU ANSWER IT,
BY USING DIFFERENTIAL EQUATIONS?
SEAN: THAT'S RIGHT, SO GOING
BACK TO ISAAC NEWTON
WHO SAID THAT YOU
DESCRIBE THE WORLD
BY GIVING THE POSITIONS
AND THE VELOCITIES
OF ALL THE PARTICLES,
AND THEN I HAVE LAWS OF PHYSICS
TO TELL YOU HOW THEY EVOLVED
WITH TIME.
IN QUANTUM MECHANICS
WE'VE UPDATED THAT
WITH WAVE FUNCTIONS
AND QUANTUM STATES,
BUT IT'S STILL
THE SAME PARADIGM.
AND INFORMATION GIVES US
A USEFUL WAY
OF CONCEPTUALIZING IT,
BUT IT DOESN'T CHANGE
THE UNDERLYING LAWS.
ROBERT: AND WHAT WOULD IT TAKE
FOR YOU TO CHANGE THAT OPINION?
WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE TO,
TO KNOW OR THINK
ABOUT THE STRUCTURE
OF THE UNIVERSE
TO SAY, WELL, WAIT A MINUTE,
MAYBE INFORMATION
IS MORE FUNDAMENTAL
THAN I REALIZED?
SEAN: WELL, CONSTRUCT A THEORY,
A BETTER THEORY
THAN THE ONE WE THINK WE HAVE
ABOUT THE UNIVERSE
IN WHICH INFORMATION PLAYS
THIS CENTRAL ROLE.
THE USES TO WHICH INFORMATION,
INFORMATION THEORY,
INFORMATION PROCESSING ARE PUT,
AS FAR AS I UNDERSTAND THEM,
ARE WAYS TO UNDERSTAND
PHYSICAL PROCESSES
THAT ARE DESCRIBED
BY OTHER THINGS,
THAT ARE NOT DESCRIBED
FUNDAMENTALLY BY INFORMATION.
SO IF THAT WERE NOT TRUE,
IF THERE WERE A BETTER THEORY
OF THE UNIVERSE
IN WHICH INFORMATION WAS
THE FIRST THING YOU NEEDED
TO START TALKING
ABOUT THAT THEORY,
THEN I WOULD TOTALLY CHANGE
MY MIND.
ROBERT: TO SEAN,
THE JURY IS STILL OUT.
HE ISN'T SURE ABOUT
THE PLACE OF INFORMATION.
HE APPRECIATES
THE USE OF INFORMATION
TO FACILITATE UNDERSTANDING,
BUT HE DOESN'T SEE
THE STUFF OF INFORMATION
REPLACING
THE CLASSICAL PARADIGM--
THE LAWS OF PHYSICS
DESCRIBING THE POSITION
AND MOMENTUM OF PARTICLES
AND HOW THEY EVOLVE OVER TIME.
I'M WITH SEAN.
BUT I FEEL, WELL,
A BIT ANTIQUATED, NOT SO HIP.
AM I MISSING SOMETHING?
VIEQUES' PRIMITIVE LANDSCAPE
HELPS UNDERMINE
CONVENTIONAL WISDOM.
IS THERE A MORE RADICAL WAY
TO IMAGINE INFORMATION?
PERHAPS IN SOLVING THE BIGGEST
PUZZLE OF MODERN PHYSICS--
THE HOLY GRAIL
OF QUANTUM GRAVITY.
HOW TO INTEGRATE THE UNIVERSAL
GEOMETRY OF GRAVITY--
GENERAL RELATIVITY--
WITH THE DISCRETE MICRO-EVENTS
OF QUANTUM MECHANICS.
SOME KIND OF BREAKTHROUGH
IS REQUIRED.
COULD THAT BREAKTHROUGH
BE INFORMATION?
I ASK A THEORETICAL PHYSICIST
AND STRING THEORIST AT BERKELEY,
RAPHAEL BOUSSO.
ROBERT: HOW CAN INFORMATION
HELP US
WITH THE PROBLEM
OF QUANTUM GRAVITY,
OF UNIFYING THE SEEMINGLY
DISPARATE THEORIES
OF QUANTUM MECHANICS
AND GENERAL RELATIVITY?
HOW DOES INFORMATION HELP?
RAPHAEL BOUSSO: WELL, TO EXPLAIN
HOW INFORMATION MIGHT HELP
WITH QUANTUM GRAVITY,
IT'S GOOD TO THINK
OF AN ANALOGUE,
ANOTHER PROBLEM OF UNIFICATION
THAT EINSTEIN FACED
PUTTING TOGETHER
NEWTON'S THEORY OF GRAVITY
WITH EINSTEIN'S OWN THEORY
OF SPECIAL RELATIVITY,
WHICH HAD PUT A FINITE
SPEED LIMIT ON EVERYTHING,
WHICH, WHICH NEWTON'S THEORY
DIDN'T OBEY.
AND HE EVENTUALLY FIGURED IT OUT
BY UNDERSTANDING THAT GRAVITY
IS NOT REALLY A FORCE.
GRAVITY IS GEOMETRY.
IT'S, IT'S BODIES MOVING
AS STRAIGHT AS THEY CAN
IN WHAT'S ACTUALLY
A BENT SPACE-TIME,
BENT LIKE THE SURFACE
OF A SPHERE OR OF A SADDLE.
AND TODAY WE'RE TRYING TO GO
ONE STEP FURTHER--
UNIFY GRAVITY,
EINSTEIN'S THEORY,
WITH QUANTUM MECHANICS.
AND QUANTUM MECHANICS
INFORMATION,
QUANTUM INFORMATION,
IS REALLY THE CURRENCY
IN WHICH THE THEORY
IS FORMULATED.
AND THERE APPEAR TO BE
PHENOMENALLY INTERESTING
CONNECTIONS
BETWEEN THE SHAPE OF SPACE-TIME
AND THE AMOUNT OF INFORMATION
THAT CAN BE CONTAINED
IN A REGION OF SPACE-TIME.
I MYSELF CONTRIBUTED
TO UNDERSTANDING
WHAT THOSE RELATIONS ARE,
AND THEY'RE EXTREMELY SURPRISING
AND VERY BEAUTIFUL,
AND IT SEEMS THAT THEY
SHOULD HAVE A DEEPER ORIGIN,
THAT IF WE DISCOVER THIS ORIGIN,
IF WE,
IF WE UNDERSTAND WHAT UNDERLIES
THIS STRANGE RELATION,
WE MIGHT UNDERSTAND
HOW TO PUT TOGETHER
GENERAL RELATIVITY
AND QUANTUM MECHANICS.
ROBERT: WHAT WAS
YOUR OWN CONTRIBUTION?
RAPHAEL: WHAT I DISCOVERED,
FOLLOWING THE WORK OF OTHERS,
OF COURSE, IS THAT IF YOU CRAM
TOO MUCH INFORMATION
INTO A REGION OF SPACE,
GRAVITY WILL MAKE IT COLLAPSE
TO A BLACK HOLE,
AND EVENTUALLY IF YOU CRAM MORE,
THE BLACK HOLE WOULD GET BIGGER
THAN THE SURFACE AREA
YOU SPECIFIED,
AND YOU JUST CAN'T DO THAT.
AND SO THAT PROVIDES
AN ABSOLUTE LIMIT
ON HOW MUCH INFORMATION
YOU CAN HAVE,
COMPLETELY INDEPENDENTLY
OF WHAT YOU THINK
THE SMALLEST CONSTITUENTS ARE.
IT'S A VERY UNIVERSAL THING
THAT'S GOVERNED ONLY BY GRAVITY,
AND SO THAT ESTABLISHES
A CONNECTION
BETWEEN THESE TWO THINGS,
QUANTUM INFORMATION AND GRAVITY,
THAT IF WE COULD UNRAVEL
ITS ORIGIN,
I THINK IT WOULD TELL US A LOT
ABOUT HOW TO UNIFY
THOSE TWO THINGS.
ROBERT:
HOW ARE YOU DIFFERENTIATING
BETWEEN THE PARTICLES
OR THE MASS-ENERGY
AND THE INFORMATION?
HOW DO THE TWO ARTICULATE?
RAPHAEL: WELL, THE MASS
AND ENERGY ARE JUST FORMS,
IN THIS VIEWPOINT,
THAT THE INFORMATION TAKES.
ROBERT: IN THIS ANALYSIS
INFORMATION IS,
IS VERY FUNDAMENTAL.
IT'S NOT JUST A, A WAY,
IT'S NOT A MEASUREMENT THING.
IT'S SOMETHING THAT,
THAT IS REALLY THE,
THE PRIMARY CONSTITUENT
OF WHAT YOU'RE WORKING WITH,
SO IT DOES SOUND
LIKE IT'S MORE FUNDAMENTAL
THAN THE COMMON UNDERSTANDING
OF INFORMATION.
RAPHAEL: IT'S CLEAR
THAT IN THIS RELATIONSHIP
BETWEEN INFORMATION AND GEOMETRY
IT'S INFORMATION THAT HAS
THE SIMPLE RELATIONSHIP.
IF I TRY TO RE-EXPRESS THAT
IN TERMS OF THE MASSES
AND CHARGES
AND SO ON OF PARTICLES,
IT BECOMES VERY CONVOLUTED,
AND IT WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE
TO SEE THE RELATION.
SO AT THE VERY LEAST IT TELLS US
THAT THIS PARTICULAR RELATION
GIVES A PREFERRED STATUS
TO INFORMATION.
IT'S OF COURSE POSSIBLE THAT
BOTH THE QUANTUM INFORMATION
AND THE OTHER PROPERTIES
OF PHYSICAL NATURE
HAVE SOME COMMON ORIGIN,
AND SO THAT'S WHY I'M RELUCTANT
TO SIMPLY DECLARE
THAT INFORMATION
IS AUTOMATICALLY
THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL THING
IN THE WORLD.
BUT YES, YOU'RE RIGHT,
THAT WOULD BE
THE FIRST GUESS YOU'D MAKE
LOOKING AT THIS RELATION.
ROBERT: RAPHAEL HELPED DISCOVER
THE DEEP RELATIONSHIP
BETWEEN INFORMATION AND SPACE
AND HOW INFORMATION IS STORED
IN MATTER AND ENERGY.
INFORMATION TO HIM IS NOT
SO MUCH "MODELING THE SYSTEM,"
IT IS THE SYSTEM.
I'M NO EXPERT, BUT IT SURE
SOUNDS AS IF RAPHAEL
HAS SHOWN THAT REALITY
WON'T WORK
UNLESS INFORMATION
IS IN SOME SENSE REAL.
HE FOCUSES ON STRINGS--
THE SMALLEST THINGS.
WHAT ABOUT THE BIGGEST THINGS--
THE STRUCTURE OF THE UNIVERSE?
I ASK ONE OF THE FOUNDERS
OF CONTEMPORARY COSMOLOGY,
THE MIT PROFESSOR WHO FORMULATED
COSMIC INFLATION--
THE PREVAILING THEORY FOR HOW
THE UNIVERSE BEGAN--
ALAN GUTH.
ALAN, ONE OF THE QUESTIONS
THAT IS BEING ADDRESSED HERE
IS NOT JUST WHAT INFORMATION
IS IN PHYSICS
BUT THE CLAIM BY A FEW
THAT INFORMATION REALLY IS
THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL THING
OF EXISTENCE.
HOW DO YOU REACT TO THAT?
ALAN GUTH: I HAVE TO ADMIT I
FIND THOSE ISSUES HARD TO PARSE.
BUT MY OWN UNDERSTANDING
OF PHYSICS
IS THAT, TO ME, MATTER-ENERGY
AND INFORMATION
ARE ALMOST THE SAME THING.
THAT IS, IN PHYSICS WE DESCRIBE
MATTER AND ENERGY
BY INTRODUCING FIELDS
AND EQUATIONS
THAT GOVERN THE EVOLUTION
OF THOSE FIELDS AND SO ON.
BUT ULTIMATELY THOSE FIELDS ARE
REALLY JUST MATHEMATICAL DEVICES
THAT WE USE TO DESCRIBE REALITY.
AND THE VALUES OF THOSE FIELDS
ARE INFORMATION,
SO I CAN EASILY BELIEVE THAT
THERE ARE OTHER FORMULATIONS
OF THE LAWS OF PHYSICS
THAT MIGHT LOOK
COMPLETELY DIFFERENT
BUT WOULD HAVE
THE SAME INFORMATION CONTENT,
AND THEY WOULD BE EQUIVALENT.
SO I WOULD SAY THAT ULTIMATELY
PHYSICS IS ABOUT NUMBERS,
AND NUMBERS ARE INFORMATION,
AND EVERYTHING THAT WE USE
TO DESCRIBE THE WORLD
IN TERMS OF ABSTRACTIONS,
I DON'T THINK WE HAVE ANY SENSE
OF WHAT REALLY EXISTS.
MAYBE I CAN BE MORE CONCRETE
BY SAYING
THAT I THINK THAT IF A COMPUTER
WERE SIMULATING THE WORLD
AND CARRYING OUT THE EVOLUTION
THAT WE THINK THE WORLD
REALLY EVOLVES ACCORDING TO,
THAT IS THE TRUE LAWS
OF PHYSICS,
NOT OUR APPROXIMATION
TO THE LAWS OF PHYSICS,
I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S
A PLAUSIBLE DESCRIPTION
OF OUR ACTUAL UNIVERSE,
BUT I WOULD THINK
THAT THAT WOULD BE
COMPLETELY EQUIVALENT
TO OUR UNIVERSE,
THAT WE COULD BE LIVING
IN SUCH A UNIVERSE
AND WOULD NOT KNOW
THE DIFFERENCE.
ROBERT:
BUT THE CLAIM OF INFORMATION
GOES DEEPER THAN WHAT
YOU'RE COMFORTABLE WITH.
IT'S NOT JUST THAT INFORMATION
IS ANOTHER WAY TO DESCRIBE
THE LAWS OF PHYSICS
OR EMBEDS NUMERICAL QUANTITIES,
BUT IT SAYS THAT THE, THE
FUNDAMENTAL UNIT OF INFORMATION,
THE BIT,
IS THE MOST UNDERLYING FACTOR.
AND THAT'S WHAT
THE LAWS OF PHYSICS ARE
AS OPPOSED TO THAT'S
WHAT THE LAWS OF PHYSICS
CAN BE DESCRIBED AS.
ALAN: YES.
ROBERT: YOU CAN HAVE
AN EQUIVALENT EQUATION.
THAT'S NOT THE CLAIM.
THE CLAIM IS THAT IT'S,
IT'S THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL
AND YOU'RE DEALING
WITH THE DERIVATIVE.
ALAN: YEAH, YEAH. UM...
OKAY, I THINK ALL I CAN SAY
IS I DON'T SEE A JUSTIFICATION
FOR THAT CLAIM,
ALTHOUGH MAYBE I COULD BE
CONVINCED IN THE FUTURE.
UNLESS THOSE BITS
ARE DOING SOMETHING DIFFERENT
FROM THE LAWS OF PHYSICS,
I DON'T REALLY SEE
THAT THERE'S A QUESTION HERE.
IF TWO THINGS ARE EQUIVALENT,
I DON'T THINK THERE'S
ANY VALID WAY TO TALK
ABOUT WHICH IS MORE FUNDAMENTAL,
AND I SEE THE TWO AS EQUIVALENT.
ROBERT: ALAN APPRECIATES
THE DEEP IMPORTANCE
OF INFORMATION,
THOUGH HE IS
NO INFORMATION EVANGELIST.
I LIKE HIS BALANCED APPROACH--
DESCRIBING MATTER-ENERGY
AND INFORMATION
AS ALMOST THE SAME THING.
THAT'S WHY ALAN IS JUSTIFIED
IN POSING THE POSSIBILITY
THAT OUR UNIVERSE
IS A SIMULATION,
RUNNING ON SOME COSMIC COMPUTER.
HERE I'M CONFLICTED.
ON THE ONE HAND,
THE UNIVERSE AS SIMULATION
IS A POSSIBILITY
THAT CANNOT BE REJECTED
IF THE UNIVERSE IS A COMPUTER
AND INFORMATION IS PRIMARY.
ON THE OTHER HAND,
THE UNIVERSE AS SIMULATION
WOULD CONFIRM REDUCTIONISM,
THE IDEA THAT EVERYTHING,
INCLUDING CONSCIOUSNESS,
CAN BE REDUCED TO BASIC PHYSICS
AND EVEN TO DIGITAL EVENTS.
SO CAN CONSCIOUSNESS HELP
CORROBORATE THE CLAIM
THAT INFORMATION IS FUNDAMENTAL?
IT'S SAID THAT EVEN IF PHYSICS
FINDS IT FINAL THEORY,
THE MYSTERY OF CONSCIOUSNESS
SHALL REMAIN.
HOW DO WE HAVE INNER EXPERIENCE?
NOW, IN A RADICALLY NEW THEORY,
INFORMATION IS RECRUITED
TO PLAY THE CRUCIAL ROLE.
I QUESTION
ONE OF THE SUPPORTERS--
THE CHIEF SCIENTIFIC OFFICER
OF THE ALLEN INSTITUTE
FOR BRAIN SCIENCE,
NEUROSCIENTIST CHRISTOF KOCH.
ROBERT: CHRISTOF,
YOU'VE DEALT WITH INFORMATION,
PARTICULARLY IN TRYING
TO EXPLAIN CONSCIOUSNESS,
BUT DO YOU SEE INFORMATION
AS SOMETHING THAT IS FUNDAMENTAL
TO THE STRUCTURE OF EVERYTHING?
CHRISTOF KOCH: INFORMATION
IS PART OF THE STRUCTURE
OF THE UNIVERSE.
I'M NOT SAYING INFORMATION CAME
BEFORE SPACE-TIME, ENERGY,
AND MASS,
BUT IN ORDER TO EXPLAIN
CONSCIOUSNESS,
WHICH IS PART AND PARCEL
OF THE UNIVERSE,
WE NEED,
WE NEED INFORMATION THEORY.
AND ULTIMATELY
MY ONLY EXPERIENCE,
THIS IS THE HEART
OF THE MOST FAMOUS DEDUCTION
IN WESTERN THOUGHT,
COGITO ERGO SUM--
THE ONLY WAY I EXPERIENCE
THE UNIVERSE,
I DON'T KNOW WHAT GRAVITY
AND GALAXIES,
ALL OF THAT I HAVE TO INFER.
THE ONE THING I'M UTTERLY
CERTAIN OF IS I'M CONSCIOUS.
SAME THING AS YOU ARE CONSCIOUS
OF YOUR OWN EXISTENCE.
AND THAT NEEDS TO BE EXPLAINED
BY SOME SORT OF
INTRINSIC INFORMATION,
INTRINSIC INFORMATION PRINCIPLES
SUCH AS INTEGRATED INFORMATION.
SO THAT SAYS THAT IN SOME SENSE
IT IS FUNDAMENTAL.
MY ONLY REALITY
IS MY LIVED REALITY.
IT'S MY ONLY REALITY
I HAVE DIRECTLY ACCESS TO.
IT IS SORT OF THE LIGHT
INSIDE MY HEAD.
IT IS THE SOUND INSIDE MY SKULL.
THAT IS ULTIMATELY--
IT'S ALL CREATED
BY INTEGRATED INFORMATION
THAT'S CREATED
BY THIS COMPLEX BRAIN
THAT'S EVOLVED OVER, YOU KNOW,
SEVERAL BILLION YEARS
OF EVOLUTION.
SO YOU NEED AN EXTERNAL WORLD
THAT'S GIVEN BY PHYSICS AND MATH
AND SPACE AND TIME,
BUT THEN YOU ALSO NEED
SORT OF INFORMATION
THAT GIVES RISE TO EXPERIENCE,
AND EXPERIENCE ONCE AGAIN IS
THE ONLY WAY I OR ANYBODY ELSE
KNOWS ABOUT THE WORLD.
ROBERT: OKAY.
BUT DOES THAT MEAN INFORMATION
IS A WAY OF DESCRIBING
WHAT YOU SEE,
OR IS INFORMATION...
WHAT SITS BELOW
EVERYTHING THAT YOU SEE
AND GIVES RISE TO EVERYTHING?
THERE'S A BIG DIFFERENCE.
CHRISTOF: IT IS NOT JUST USED
TO DESCRIBE REALITY;
I THINK IT IS AN...
IT IS AN IRREDUCIBLE ASPECT.
IT'S AN IMMINENT--
IT'S AN INTRINSIC ASPECT.
SO I ORDER TO FULLY DESCRIBE
THE UNIVERSE,
I POSIT YOU NEED
SPACE, TIME, ENERGY, MASS,
AND YOU NEED
THAT ORGANIZED MATTER
GIVES RISE OR IS ASSOCIATED
WITH INTEGRATED INFORMATION.
THAT IS WHAT WE CALL EXPERIENCE.
IT'S A PART AND PARCEL
OF THE WORLD.
IT DOESN'T EMERGE.
IT IS FUNDAMENTALLY THERE.
IT'S JUST AS FUNDAMENTAL
AS CHARGE.
IT'S A FUNDAMENTAL PROPERTY
OF CERTAIN ELEMENTARY PARTICLES,
LIKE AN ELECTRON.
ULTIMATELY
INTEGRATED INFORMATION
IS A RELATIONSHIP AMONG ELEMENTS
WITHIN A SYSTEM.
IT'S A VIEW OF THE SYSTEM
VIEWED FROM WITHIN.
SO ULTIMATELY IT'S
A MATHEMATICAL RELATIONSHIP.
IT'S MATHEMATICS IN SOME SENSE,
SO YOU CAN SORT OF TAKE
A PLATONIC VIEW ON THIS
AND SAY ULTIMATELY
IT'S THE MATHEMATICAL REALITY
THAT GIVES RISE TO EXPERIENCE.
I'M SAYING THAT ULTIMATELY
MY REALITY, MY LIVED REALITY--
NOT THE ONE I INFER,
WHICH IS INVOLVED IN PHYSICS--
THE ONE I LIVE RIGHT NOW;
I HAVE AN EXPERIENCE. I SEE YOU.
YOU JUST ASKED ME A QUESTION.
I HEAR YOUR VOICE
INSIDE MY HEAD.
I HAVE THIS MOVIE INSIDE MY HEAD
THAT SHOWS YOU.
THAT EXPERIENCE
IS INTEGRATED INFORMATION.
IT'S JUST THE SAME.
IT'S AN IDENTITY RELATIONSHIP.
INTEGRATED INFORMATION
IS MY EXPERIENCE,
MY EXPERIENCE
IS INTEGRATED INFORMATION.
SO THAT'S FUNDAMENTAL
TO CONSCIOUS EXPERIENCE,
WHICH IS A FUNDAMENTAL ASPECT
OF REALITY,
SO IN THAT SENSE
IT DOESN'T PREDATE PHYSICS
BUT IT'S PART OF PHYSICS.
NOW YOU CAN ASK
WHY THAT PARTICULAR THEORY.
THAT'S VERY SIMILAR TO ASKING
WHY QUANTUM MECHANICS.
CAN YOU IMAGINE A UNIVERSE
WHERE QUANTUM MECHANICS--
THE LAWS OF QUANTUM MECHANICS--
DO NOT HOLD?
YES, YOU CAN IMAGINE,
BUT FOR WHATEVER REASONS
WE DON'T KNOW RIGHT NOW,
WE LIVE IN A UNIVERSE
WHERE QUANTUM MECHANICS HOLD.
SAME THING,
WE LIVE IN A UNIVERSE
WHERE INTEGRATED INFORMATION
GIVES RISE TO, TO CONSCIOUSNESS.
ROBERT: WHAT'S FUNDAMENTAL?
WHAT'S BEDROCK
IN THE GRAND CHAIN OF EXISTENCE?
AT FIRST GLANCE, INFORMATION
WOULD SEEM MORE A METAPHOR
OR A MODEL
THAN THE FUNDAMENTAL
BUILDING BLOCK OF REALITY.
TWO FACTORS MAKE ME THINK TWICE.
FIRST, THE SURPRISING
RELATIONSHIP
BETWEEN QUANTUM INFORMATION
AND GRAVITY.
SECOND, INTEGRATED INFORMATION
AS A POSSIBLE MECHANISM
FOR CONSCIOUSNESS.
SO IF THE UNIVERSE WERE
A COMPUTER, A QUANTUM COMPUTER,
WHAT WOULD BE
ITS COMPUTING POWER?
I RETURN TO SETH LLOYD.
SETH: BECAUSE THE UNIVERSE
IS QUANTUM MECHANICAL.
SO IT INHERITS EVERYTHING
THAT A QUANTUM COMPUTER CAN DO.
SO THE UNIVERSE
BY ITS VERY NATURE
INHERITS THIS ABILITY
TO DO MANY, MANY
DIFFERENT THINGS.
SO THERE ARE ABOUT
TWO TO THE 300
ELEMENTARY PARTICLES
IN THE UNIVERSE.
THAT MEANS IF EACH PARTICLE
HAD A BAR CODE,
YOU WOULD HAVE A 300-BIT BARCODE
TO LABEL EACH PARTICLE
IN THE UNIVERSE.
SO LET'S TAKE A VERY TINY CHUNK
OF THE UNIVERSE,
LIKE 300 ELECTRONS.
IT'S MUCH, MUCH, MUCH,
MUCH SMALLER THAN THE UNIVERSE.
THIS CHUNK OF 300 ELECTRONS
COULD DO 2 TO THE 300
DIFFERENT THINGS.
SO EVEN A TINY FRACTION
OF THE UNIVERSE
CAN DO MORE THINGS THAN THERE
ARE ELEMENTARY PARTICLES
IN THE UNIVERSE AS A WHOLE.
ROBERT: NOW IF, IN FACT,
OUR UNIVERSE IS
FUNDAMENTALLY A COMPUTER,
THEN IT SHOULD BE
ENTIRELY FEASIBLE,
ON FUTURE SUPER-COMPUTERS,
TO SIMULATE WHOLE WORLDS.
I'D STILL BET AGAINST
WHOLE WORLD SIMULATIONS.
I'D SUSPECT FLAWS
IN THE ASSUMPTIONS.
BUT WHOLE WORLD SIMULATIONS ARE
THE CONSEQUENCE OF THE ARGUMENT,
NOT THE CORE.
THE CORE IS WHETHER INFORMATION
CONSTRUCTS THE COSMOS...
WHETHER INFORMATION
IS CLOSER TO TRUTH.
