(upbeat music)
- Last week we heard from Dan Hannan,
who spoke a bit about how many
of the trends we see today,
Black Lives Matter, this
increasing tribalism
in the United States,
it comes from this post-modernist sludge
that's emerged from our universities.
Have a listen to a bit
of what he had to say.
- Actually a much better word for them
would be pre-modernists
because they are reverting
to the pre-enlightenment
idea, that what counts
is not whether something
is objectively true
or can be empirically proved,
but what counts is whether
you like the person saying it,
whether they are from
an approved category.
And it's a terrifying thing how quickly
we can strip away the reason, the logic,
the scientific method,
all of those rational processes
that made the enlightenment
and make the modern world possible.
- Well, to continue that theme today,
I'm delighted to welcome
Bella D'Abrera from the IPA.
She runs the foundation for
Western Civilization Program
and very closely been thinking
about some of these same issues.
Welcome Bella to Water Cooler.
- Thank you so much
for having me on today.
- I always find it a
frightening thing to say
that we're moving away
from the enlightenment.
You know, the very thing that
gave us science, progress,
social progress, technological progress.
We're moving away from that.
Do you think that's an overreaction?
- No, I think we're
really going backwards,
and we're going backwards at quite a pace
and quite terrifying pace.
Certainly in the last six months,
I think we've seen the total collapse
of the idea of a rule of law and,
and reason and scientific fact
and the total rejection of scientific fact
by people who should know
better, by the ruling class.
And it's a very unsettling experience
to be watching it as it happens.
And I think you and I
both speak out about it
as much as we can in the media,
but you know, it is very disturbing.
And of course you can't
talk about what's going on
with the ruling class without talking
about what's going on in universities,
but we'll get to that.
We'll get to that later.
- Yeah, well, to what extent do you think
some of the unpleasant
trends, shall I say,
or unhelpful trends to put it mildly,
we're witnessing now come
out of the universities?
- Well look, I think you
can really connect the two.
There's just no doubt that that humanities
in the Western world have
completely lost their way,
and it's been becoming painfully obvious
in the recent months.
You know, the sixties and
seventies saw the birth
of the new humanities and the,
this explosion of postmodernism,
and the rejection of knowledge
and this rejection of truth,
which is essentially the rejection
of these enlightenment principles.
It saw this focus on language,
the power of language and, you know,
cultural relativism and everything else.
And this is, and it's
exploded out of academia
and into the public, into
our world, into our lives.
And unfortunately, it's affecting
us now on a daily basis.
So yes, the universities
are absolutely culpable,
and the academics are absolutely culpable.
- One example that struck
me as a complete rejection
of the principles of the enlightenment,
the principles of empiricism,
is how we're seeing this big argument now
over whether certain
medicines would be a cure
or would help, you know,
control the disease
if people get infected.
Now, I would've thought it'd be nice
if we could actually look at
the facts surrounding this,
but instead we're locked into
a debate about who said what?
And if Donald Trump recommends or suggests
there might be some promise
in a particular medicine,
immediately, it's rejected out of hand
by the other side, right?
- Well, yes, that's very frustrating.
And I think it comes down to this idea
that truth is whoever tells it.
So if you,
so truth is no longer
objective truth is subjective.
So it's based on the,
that the person who was
actually making the statements.
So if you think Donald
Trump is the epitome of evil
of which, you know, most of
the Democrats seem to do,
then anything he says is
then ultimately wrong and,
and a mistruth.
And this is the problem with, isn't it,
with making truth so objective.
And it's also interesting, you know,
if you look at the whole
Black Lives Matter thing,
and this, these comments about
not so much Black Lives Matter,
but the comments, the recent comments
that you can't be a Republican and black.
So therefore it negates your blackness.
You know, that it's politicizing race,
and it's politicizing truth.
And it's just,
it's a terrible state that
we've got into in the world.
- If, I'm sure if our civics teaching
was a little bit better in
schools and universities,
people might be more aware
of the way we're trampling
on many of the values
and the traditions and the institutions,
which have served us so well.
Do you think that's right?
- Oh, look, absolutely.
I mean, they only introduced civics
into the Victorian curriculum, I think,
a couple of years ago, before
that it just wasn't taught.
So, you know as we all know,
the national curriculum is deeply flawed.
And the new South Wales curriculum
and the Victorian curriculum
and all the other curriculums
around the country
that have sort of taken
bits and invented their own.
But, there's a total rejection of the idea
that Australian children need to know
about any of these things.
They wouldn't know what rule of law was,
so they don't know when
it's not being practiced.
You know it's not rocket
science. It's very simple.
You just need to teach
people about the values
and the foundations of
Western civilization,
much of which comes from the
enlightenment and liberalism
and democracy and all these things.
And then they'll know when
they've been taken away,
but they don't know that
they're being taken away
because they didn't know they
had them in the first place.
So, really, the progressive,
this progressive idea of education
is also largely to blame.
Unfortunately, in Australia, you know,
the minute you go to school,
from the minute you
start until you graduate
when you're 15 or 16,
not only are not taught
how to read and write,
but you're also not taught anything
about why you live in (indistinct),
the successful, stable, peaceful, free,
ostensibly, nation that we have.
And, so there's,
and I don't want to use the
term much in institutions,
I'm not going to,
but you can't help but think
if this is the problem,
if the children aren't being taught
and then of course when
you get to University,
they're doubling down
on identity politics,
and Western civilization
is rarely mentioned,
then you're going to get
this political class,
and then you're going to get
people that know nothing.
And they don't know what
they're giving away.
And this, I think, you know,
it keeps, it takes us back
to what we're living through,
especially in Victoria at
the moment, with people,
as you mentioned in your
article this morning,
people just giving up
their freedoms overnight.
- That's what I find extraordinary.
The willingness of people to do it.
I suspect it's partly because
they don't know what they are.
But, you know, so we've
got the situation now,
as we now know in Victoria,
where the Chief Medical Officer,
the Chief Health Officer,
as he's called in Victoria,
is essentially above the law, right?
He can authorize people to raid your home,
- [Bella] Yes.
destroy your property, destroy your home
if he thinks fit, you know,
without having to go to the
courts for any authority.
And without having obviously
to consult Parliament,
seek the authority of Parliament.
Now, this is frightening
in it's structure.
- It's like, yeah, he's
like King John isn't he?
He exactly like King John.
This is what, we've been
through all this before.
This is not new behavior is it?
This is not, this is...
- It's new to us though.
It's not something that I think
we've experienced in Australia.
- No, it's new to us, but then
is it not just human nature?
I mean, this is what we've
been trying to prevent again.
This is the whole point of Magna Carta.
This is the whole point of the Barons,
this is the whole point
of having the rule of law.
It's something so
precious, and you're right.
It hasn't happened in Australia before.
And it's terrifying that it
has been cast aside so swiftly
with so little fight.
But again, it comes back to the fact that
do people really know what rule of law is?
And they probably don't
because they're not
taught about it at school.
And we haven't had to fight for it before.
We've had all this,
these years of prosperity and freedom
and suddenly it's taken
away almost overnight.
And, you know, Jacinda
Ardern did the same thing,
she's completely first,
the idea of rule of law,
and she did that three or four months ago.
So that's, it's, you know,
it's happening in New Zealand as well.
- Yeah. Yeah.
And this is why I think
it's wrong just to say,
well, this is all Dan Andrews
and his awful government.
I mean, whatever you think about them,
a Parliament, a Victorian
Parliament at some stage,
must've passed this emergency legislation,
which he's now using,
with these provisions in and thought,
Oh, that's okay. That'll be all right.
- Yes. Yeah, it's not just on Andrews.
All the politicians are
complicit, aren't they?
In fact, as we speak,
they're fighting it out now, aren't they?
We'll find out, probably at
the end of this conversation
whether Andrews has managed
to convince everyone
that he needs not six
months of emergency powers.
Again, putting himself above the law.
- Yeah, well, getting
back to where we started
the universities, the
institutions, more than any other,
I think, and I think you might agree
are more, are responsible
for this complete change in direction.
- Yeah, so you can see, sorry.
- What's happens to them next?
I mean, their business
model's in a bit of trouble,
but we'll let court, are they rescueable?
- Well, look, I mean, are
they financially rescuable?
I don't know if they're
ideologically rescueable,
but they might be
financially vestibular safe
if they cut down on their
admin, and they cut down,
I mean if you look at the salaries
of the Vice Chancellors
and you know, I mean, they,
they're going through
absolute financial turmoil.
And now that they're having an inquiry
into their business
dealings with China, I mean,
there's nothing good about being
part of University at
the moment in Australia.
They are, you know, ideological
and financial crisis,
and potentially this parliamentary inquiry
that Morrison is organizing,
it's just going to be, you
know, it's going to be dire.
What, what are we going to find out?
I don't feel sorry for them,
because I think they've
known the risk all along,
especially when it comes
to putting all your eggs
in one financial basket.
You're relying on the
international student fees.
They knew that risk,
and they did nothing to mitigate the risk.
So I don't think they
should be bailed out.
And I do wonder how you can solve
the ideological problem as well.
It's so ingrained in the
humanities, essentially,
that, you know, how do you get that back?
How do you get the humanities back?
It's an interesting question.
And we need the universities.
We don't need as many universities.
We certainly don't need 43
universities in this country.
We need them, but do we need that many?
And should we not just
go back to this idea
of training is something
that you, that is useful?
So, yeah, I don't know
if I've answered your question, but...
- Well, you have, but (indistinct).
- [Guest] It's difficult.
- We like to end on a
redemptive, optimistic
kind of interview.
- [Bella] I know,
I'm trying to think of
something optimistic. (laughs)
- Well, I'll spot one, I'll spot one.
The IPA, that finding
organization for which you work,
is doing better than ever.
They've got great support behind them.
They're out there
fighting, and we are too.
So, you know, let's just...
- Yes, and you know in
the crises like this,
this is good, this is
focusing people's minds.
In fact, you know,
the very fact that we're actually talking
and thinking about the rule of law,
and we're thinking about our
freedoms is a good thing.
- Hmm. Never waste a good crisis.
- [Bella] Never waste
a good crisis. (laughs)
- Thank you, Bella.
Thank you, It's been a pleasure
to talk to you
- Thank you so much.
Thank you.
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