[Doug] it's great to have you all here we're going to go around the virtual room or the
virtual round table and do some quick
introduction so I'll introduce each you
by name and then you can you can take
the mic and introduce yourself quick
title and then we'll go around the room
that way and then we'll start right into
this so let's start off with making sure
all right so I'm gonna start out
introducing Lucy Bernholz
[Lucy] Hi I am Lucy Bernholz I'm delighted to be here
this morning with you for this
conversation I'm the director of the
digital civil society lab at Stanford
[Doug] perfect thank you, Linda Essig
[Linda] good morning my name is Linda
Essig I'm here at the sunset of Los
Angeles on the unseated land of the
Tonga people, I'm the Dean of the
College of Arts and Letters at Cal State
University Los Angeles
[Doug] very good, and over to you Bamuthi
[Bamuthi] hey peace my name
is Marc Bamuthi Joseph I'm originally
from New York live in the Bay Area work
in DC I'm the vice president and
artistic director of social impact at
the Kennedy Center
[Doug] thank you, Sunil Iyengar
[Sunil] yes hi this is Sunil Iyengar director
of research and analysis of national
down for the arts very pleased to be
here we're a proud co-sponsor of the
National Endowment for the Arts Research lab here
[Doug] yes thank you and last we'll go over to Jon Leland
[Jon] hi I'm very happy to be here
I'm the vice president of insights at Kickstarter
[Doug] wonderful well this is an
exciting panel for me it's a great way
to start off our day and I want to put a
prompt question out to all of you
so in her presentation Lucy talked about
the importance of first principles and
thinking about our systems she pressed us
to push beyond ever the mushrooms that
are just on the surface and look beneath
an example in the soil underneath I'd
like to you to go like to go around from
the panel here and ask in light of the
recent crises we're facing what are the
first principles that you think are most
important for us to be keeping in mind
here maybe let's start with Linda
[Linda] okay thank you well before I answer the question about the first principles I
really want to thank Doug and Joanna
for the opportunity to share my thoughts
with the esteemed panelists and with the
many others watching I also want to
thank Indiana University for allowing me
to defer its modest honorarium to an
artist in need rather than accepting it
myself and I'm not sharing this to
highlight my own righteousness but
because her story is emblematic of what
working artists especially working
artists who serve communities of color
are facing right now in the world of
Covid 19, Martha Carrillo is part of the
self-help graphics and art census
... working toward a full count of
all of the residents of East LA as well
as under different circumstances a
resident artist with their barrio mobile
art studio she lost that contract work
as a result of the pandemic as did many
artists around the country so I'll come
back to that but first principles so I'm
hoping you'll allow me to have to first
principles the soil in which we work and
I want to share my observations of them
the first is the free market economy as
a first principle and the neoliberal
version of it that we've lived in since
1980 is the soil I really love Lucy's
metaphor but it's a soil that does not
really provide the nourishment we need
as a nation it's a soil that's proven to
be completely inadequate to the task of
nourishing us during this time of crisis
as a system it is inadequate to the task
of producing and distributing necessary
goods equitably in a time of crisis the
free market as the first principle has
not provided masks or testing kits or
even toilet paper efficiently and I
would add that the the current regime's
responses to black lives matter protests
and a note to my colleague Tyler Cowen
is speaking later these are protests
they are not riots or that response is
also one of the mushrooms that grows out
of this sick soil in that it favors
property rights over human rights and as
Marc Bamuthi points out there is a
tension between public good and private
wealth and that free market soil really
helps the latter to grow but often at
the expense of the former so that's kind
of the sick soil but the the healthy first
principle is community level an
individual
action that we really see matter for
community well-being right now whether
it's our neighbors feeding neighbors or
people in a cafe deciding whether or not
to wear a mask individual actions in
community and neighborhood settings have
literal life-and-death consequences so
we really need to look to community
action during this time of crisis in
which I learned from Amaka Agbo
presentation is it's called restorative
economics a term that I have I really
love so um this raises a whole bunch of
questions for me but I'll I'll shut up
now and let someone else have a chance
for a change thanks
[Doug] it's a great place to start with
lots of questions and it's a good
transition I think over to mark them
with you for some your thoughts on first
principles here
[Bamuthi] yeah that's hard because Linda did it I
feel like we can all go home now it's
it's true the first principle is the
relationship between the structural
economy and the moral economy it's it's
really hard to move outside of that and
or to for me to think beyond that
because it literally is the root of evil
in this country and as we are out in the
streets protesting and beginning to
articulate notions of anti-racist
systems necessarily we connect anti
racism and anti capitalism and if not
anti capitalism at the very least contra
capitalism if we were to take an
incremental step so it's it's hard for
me to really think beyond that as a
first principle because it really is the
the root of division and social
hierarchy here access to resources I do
think that the collective psychology as
a post Covid response and principle the
nurturing of the collective psychology
by reimagining what constitutes beauty
and health in terms of the public
imagination is another principle that we
might look to and by beauty and
health I don't just mean aesthetics I
mean the cultivation of narratives that
embed us in an interdependent notion of
our and and maybe a more liberal
understanding of our collective humanity
a greater empathy working in the arts
sector as a poet as a practicing artist
and and having institutional grounding
at the Kennedy Center among other
institutions I note whose stories are on
stage whose stories are on screen what
gets propagated as norm or normal and
this works across demographic
classification gender expression
sexuality
physical capacity and physical capital
so the the diversification and the
propagation of stories that uplift a
more collective and democratic
understanding of beauty married to a
relationship a further evolution of the
relationship between the structural
economy and the moral economy is what I
propose as a as an additional principle
[Doug] that's great
Sunil your thoughts on sort of first
principles it
[Sunil] thank you yes and thanks to Lucy for
raising that as the frame for this I
think that's a really helpful way to
think about what we have to do now I
think there in my I think I often think
of to kind of first principles that
maybe collide and intersect you know
lately I've been reading over the last
couple weeks over the statement you know
what we see on coins the motto
e pluribus unum which you know essentially
means out of the many the one and I
think what I'm talking about here is
reconciling individual expression you
know the need for individual agency and
voice with that of a group and really
good being larger in being part of
something larger than ourselves and
being part of you know having feeling
less alone and I think that's what the
arts at least historically and what
especially now are showing themselves
capable of doing make bridging that and
so for individuals we know and this is
from research of course we know a lot
about the arts ability through the
creative arts therapies through arts
education studio art studies of studio
arts or even jazz improvisation we've
seen how it improves self efficacy it
gives perspective taking it really sort
of shores up the individual and kind of
elevates the individual voice and agency
as I said and provides clarity but then
on the other side we also see for the
social benefits the community wide
benefits I think you know we all agree
probably the arts are inherently social
our data have shown eighty percent of
people who go to an arts event did so
because they wanted to be with family
and friends 60 percent of people who
perform the music dance or not
necessarily formally perform dance music
or theater did so to be with
same people and more than 50% of
people who make art work you know arts
and crafts for example did so for people
they personally know and I say that
because you know that suggests this deep
community bonding element which we're
finding now and especially now since
we're spending so much time in virtual
spaces it's really critical to the arts
I'll end by saying there's recently a
study by the Knight Foundation
commissioned some work on this they
looked at about eleven thousand adults
across 26 cities and he saw their
residents who had access to the arts as
perceived themselves as having access to
arts and cultural activities showed far
greater attachment and investment in
their communities and yet we know from
our own data that 35% of people out
there say they don't have access to arts
and cultural amenities and resources and
that's often emerges as a key barrier
for why people don't engage in the arts
they don't have someone to go with for
example and or it's difficult to get to
the physical location so I'm kind of
throwing all these data points is to
point out that I think there's that
individual and collective benefit which
are really part of core the part of the
first principle [Doug] great well thanks for
that perspective it's nice mixing this
up a bit it's a good segue over to Jon
if we think about some of these virtual
spaces and access so your thoughts on
first principles Jon [Jon] thank you and
thank you the other speakers man this is
a this has been a beautiful conversation
so far the I'll just mention what the
first principles of Kickstarter are
which I don't think we've talked about
publicly before and you're going to use
the language here but this is what the
this is what our first principles are as
written our fuck the mono culture and
art and creative expression are
essential right and there is a there is
a really interesting tension here
between having a shared value of fuck
the mono culture and actually fostering
that and I think you know as we look at
this current moment you know what
Bamuthi sort of talked about in terms of
reimagining notions of beauty and health
like what are the narratives we live by
what are the narratives and whose
narratives
do we listen to and doing value in our
society I think we go through periods
where we've seen the sort
of
the culture kind of solidify in some
respects though who were evaluate you
can we listen to and the internet you
know done well it often that's been
doing well but done well breaks open the
possibility for new voices new forms of
expression and new speakers of that
expression into our lives it's the
responsibility the platforms that hosts
that work though and invited onto their
platforms to be really stewards of that
public space and of those values to try
to connect those voices and allow for
them to emerge with audiences that can
hear them [Doug] very interesting all right
well in a way Lucy you had the first
word in this with your pre-recorded
remarks and so if maybe it's only
fitting that we go around the circle at
least as it appears on my screen and
give you your thoughts on this [Lucy] well I
mean I thank you and thanks to all the
panelists that is already there's no
doubt that this group is inspired and
and more thoughtful on this than I am I
don't want to was just a metaphor but I
think that the other two really first
human principles that I have been
thinking about a lot in my work are I
guess I would call them mutualism and
pluralism that that we have this innate
desire to gather together to do things
together we are not are it's not just
artists who are social although I
absolutely agree humans are social we we
gather we have I think an innate desire
I'm not a biologist but there are plenty
of them who've studied this and then I
think there's also this in the creation
of mutuality and the living and
mutuality and the grouping of it we
create groups that have ins and outs
there are always in and out groups or
people who are in or out of the groups
and and maybe this you know
that's what we're struggling with at all
times I absolutely agree with the
statements about the the nature of
capitalism and the way it has set us up
so that this moment is almost inevitable
but I also think the other the other I
guess first principle about humans about
people that I take great inspiration
from is the imaginary if you read black
liberation theory or afrofuturism the
this moments is what a privilege to be
part of what it what an extraordinary
opportunity so I think I guess the three
I'd add there our mutualism, imaginary,
and pluralism and they're and they're
much more human centered than system
centered principles because the panel
did such a great job on the system [Doug] well
thank you so I think building out of
those we've each identified some of
these first principles or major
priorities and I think embedded in most
of those explicitly is that the current
systems aren't either are either a bit
toxic or aren't handling or addressing
these first principles as well as we'd
like them to so the next question I want
to throw out to the group is what kind
of systems or structures do you think we
need to put into place in response to
the first principles that you've
identified and for this I'm going to
experiment and not go in a pre
structured sequence I'm gonna let you
each decide who if we can pull this off
what order we go in so feel free to jump
in at this point
[Sunil] I think probably other
panelists can speak to more tangible
solutions from their perspective as
practitioners or working artists but I
think what was said earlier about laying
bare how vulnerable individual artists
are and recognizing and finding a way to
solve that problem I know that with the
Cares Act implementation a grants that
for example the National Endowment for the Arts
is supporting we're really after
supporting jobs and hires as well as
providing space for artists and arts
organizations but you know you look at
the data just coming in and this is from
last week it turns out that you know
just the Performing Arts industry alone
has lost about forty eight percent
employment forty eight percent but you
know just from March to April for small
businesses especially and I think if we
think of the artists in a sense as small
business owners we have to fit into that
capitalist frame for policy purposes you
know we recognize that you know artists
are essentially hurting the most among
except for maybe accommodate hotel
transportation kinds of workers when you
look at industry statistics from small
business surveys it's been going out
seventy-one percent see a large negative
effect from this and are experiencing it
right now versus like forty three
percent for small businesses as a whole
I say all that because we've only now
begun to understanding quantify what
arts workers as freelance workers for
example freelance artists as very small
businesses contribute to the economy we
now know they contribute a very high
share like about twenty percent of what
the top twelve arts industries give to
the total economy now that's just one
lens and so again I can't be
prescriptive here but I like what Lucy
said about imagination and maybe that
can get us out of this with scenario
planning and thinking about these these
stark disparities and how do we resolve
them through this [Lucy] can I jump in on
I think imagination here is absolutely
necessary but I was really struck in
Bamuthi remarks about some of it the
possibility of repurposing physical
space for example when I heard that I
just thought bingo you know and and
there's a there's an e in talking about
institutions it sort of were used to
looking at physical assets like that and
I absolutely agree there's a possibility
there and what an opportunity to step
into some of these ideas about joint
ownership mutual mutual cooperativism of
the ownership of those assets but also
the governance of these resources right
there is a real opportunity to not just
repurpose the physical assets but allow
a whole new healthier ... ecosystem
of joint responsibility to flourish and
I'm sure this is actually already
happening I don't doubt for a second
that there are communities around the
country no doubt with artists involved
that are beginning to do this so I think
that's an enormous opportunity there's
also you know there's with all of the
the digital infrastructure and the
digitization of our culture that was in
in place our place prior to this year
there's an enormous amount of inquiry
and experimentation with joint ownership
of digital resources as well and we're
experiencing and I'm sorry my historian
brain always goes back to that rhythm of
the past but mutual ownership the
Commons what a great moment to take
those ideas and really put them into
into action [Doug] Linda [Linda] yeah I think just on
both of those points there's sort of
this immediate action that can be taken
and I think this repurposing of spaces
is is one of those but I
we have to look a little more long-term
and we have an opportunity to imagine
some some longer-term kinds of
structures I mean I think I don't think
anyone would argue maybe they would that
that many of our organizations are by
design set up to maintain a certain
status quo and we might want to think
about different kinds of organizational
structures that are more responsive that
are more project oriented that have more
Commons base to use Lucy's term funding
kinds of models I mean I think we really
we're at a turning point here and yeah
I'll stop there Thanks [Bamuthi] yeah yeah I'd
like to hop in and echo the the
Kickstarter the foundational principle
of you know fuck the monoculture because
you know nature loves diversity and
there is such a thing as cultural
biodiversity this this kind of diverse a
diversification of of narrative and
access to to narrative and I think so
much follows from that the the
relationship between the creative and
the environmental the relationship
between the the narrative and you know
the the physical asset of the planet and
systems that center or an
economy that that really centers a kind
of sustainability and interdependence
but I with some apologies to Sunil I
think that the I would like to see an
additional federal agency
I guess not apology just adding on
to I would like to see an additional
federal agency I'd like to see a
National Endowment for some some kind of
federally supported or federally
sanctioned Department of inspiration and
there was a case a few years ago these
kids in Detroit at Detroit's worse
performing high schools sued the
government of Michigan because they
claimed that their Fourteenth Amendment
rights their Fourteenth Amendment rights
were being violated they charged that
under the Fourteenth Amendment they had
a right to literacy and I found this so
moving because you know coming from a
people whose literacy was illegal for
the better part of the country's history
well I'm certainly pre its founding and
through the majority of its history I I
thought that that was such a compelling
and robust notion that in order to have
access to the franchise you also have
actually have access to letters to
communication to so that to me opens up
a whole a really beautiful and
provocative prompt for all of us do you
also have the right to clean air do you
also have the right to water if we look
at Flint not too far away from from
Detroit not just their human rights are
are the constitutional rights of the the
residents of Flint Michigan are those
being violated because of the lack of
access yes the right to health care all
these things so now working at a quasi
federal organization is certainly one
that receives a healthy amount of
government support as a living memorial
to the 35th President John F Kennedy
I've kind of transposed that original
prompt to think about inspiration for
all as a democratic small D ideal that
we can build systems around so when
folks asked me well what is social
impact within the context of an Art
Center that's often what I say that
inspiration itself is a democratic right
and if we were to build systems not just
in terms of them
manufacture of art but to secure for our
country's citizens the right to
inspiration systemically
I think we'd be a lot better off [Doug] yeah lets move over to Jon
[Jon] yeah I think from my vantage point
speaking more practically about just the
going back to the platform cooperative
type model that's something that we
certainly have been looking at and I
think is kind of a moral imperative from
the digital space because there's really
no good reason why
Spotify should be owned by a giant
corporation shareholders when musicians
are living so tenuously and barely able
to make a living like you that these are
the artists that are like hurting the
most in the current crisis that have
obviously been the most vulnerable and
we the Internet provides such a great
opportunity to reimagine the structures
reorganize ourselves at scale and very
very efficient ways and we haven't
really managed to create new like
vibrant large-scale kind of capitalist
structures through the internet we just
took the old system of capital
aggregation funneled it into this thing
and then blew up a bunch of companies
right and so I think from our
perspective the hope is that we actually
can lean into that possibility there's
there's nascent platforms like like Ampled
which is a platform cooperative
that's trying to spin up kind of like a
patreon type model but is a platform
cooperative where the creators on that
platform own the platform unlike patreon
which is owned by venture capitalists
Kickstarter we are a not owned by
venture capitalists we're a small
private company we're a public benefit
corporation but this is something we've
explored where small companies also
really hard to make this change you know
this is very complicated but something
that we're interested in trying to
figure out how to do but that should be
the future that we're we're building
towards actually isn't the
infrastructure to build towards that
future right so companies like Ampled
really struggle because it's you know it
takes a lot of capital to hire engineers
to build a platform that your voice is
so much smaller going
against a publicly traded company like
Spotify or a company patreon has
hundreds of millions of dollars in
venture capital those there's no support
structure for companies like that we
have to think about what is what is the
alternative financial capital structure
that can create platforms like that and
make them successful kind of to
deconstruct the existing model [Linda] if I can
just jump in for a second that's why I
started where I did and to use continued
lucy's metaphor which I really love you
know I spent a lot of time in the last
15 years teaching artists to kind of
work within a system that doesn't work
for them and Kickstarter is kind of a
mushroom that really helped help those
artists and and other and patreon and
things like that but they're mushrooms
they're still mushrooms in this soil
that needs to change so instead I'm just
wondering if there's a way instead of us
teaching artists to behave differently
within a system that doesn't work for
them to instead change the system so it
works for artists and all the other
people so yeah
thumbs up [Doug] yeah I don't know if they get
to see the thumbs up in live streaming
huh so actually I want to bounce it
right back to you then Linda because you
know if someone who works with arts
entrepreneurs for a long time I'm
curious to hear your perspectives on
what some of the new challenges there's
obviously a mismatch working in a system
that isn't working for them kind of
thing but that's not necessarily new
what do you think are some of the new
challenges and opportunities facing arts
entrepreneurs [Linda] yeah I've been thinking
about that and one of the things I'm
writing about now on my own until it
sees the light of day is is how to help
artists connect their work directly with
their communities without necessarily
having to go through large
organizational structures to do that
it's challenging but it is also an
opportunity I think the number one
opportunity is to make work that speaks
to our current moment right I mean
that's artists make work right and I
love I love my Bamuthi poem at the
beginning of his of his talk it was so
well it was art right so we need to
figure out a way to help artists make
art and yeah I mean that's the
opportunity and that's the challenge and
we need to figure out a way to support
artists who are making work and to
support you know the people bagging our
groceries now and to support you know
the folks doing the food delivery and
and we're not doing that yet
yeah I'm not sure I answer your question
[Doug] no that was good but actually now that
you can you know evoked the Bamuthi
presentation I want to I want to circle
back to that and give them a chance to
expand a bit especially it's sort of
cold ask ourselves and especially as
artists what are we doing in service of
social health and I want to give you a
platform to go more with this because I
think it was bold and important [Bamuthi] thank
you and I I really love the collegial
spirit of this this
thank you for nurturing it Doug and yeah
I I really appreciate the the mutualism
here
the the presentation for folks that
haven't seen it or the or the core
concept is that artists should be
deployed as in addition to the
manufacturer of films or poems or visual
arts pieces that creative thinking that
artistic intelligence that creative
intelligence should be more deeply
integrated into our systems building
that we tend to that we tend to position
artists as weird and other I've spent my
whole adult life in the San Francisco
Bay Area and before that I you know as I
said I was born and raised in in New
York there's a real danger the you know
again to use Jon's term the homogenous
asian of San Francisco is a global
danger because somebody has to set the
edge somebody has to be weird
somebody has to provoke a
of ethic sewn inside of the public
imagination that that challenges us all
to see beyond the obvious right now so
many of the gains so many of the
greatest minds I think that are in play
in our collective economy are seeking to
maximize financial capital as opposed to
you know I have a 18 year old son I have
a 14 year old daughter I notice in their
generation that there's an urge there's
less of an urge to be great there's more
of an urge to be seen it's a big
difference so artists and I think
artistic thinking as part of our systems
engineering and our systems architecture
is just
incredibly importance again somebody just
has to push the margins of the public
imagination I think artists do that
unfortunately I think the way that we've
characterized that work is as
entertainment as kind of intellectually
marginal as off to you know to the side
that artists just kind of like live up
on a hill somewhere or go to like artist
Island and be weird there and then come
back you know some something that we
might enjoy and ingest but again in the
background so this pertains this this
kind of is is most salient to me in how
we think about the public health because
I think what I say in the in the
presentation is that we are soon going
to shift from thinking about health as a
virological reality to health as a
mental and psychological reality and I
don't know who is stewarding for the
country the reintegration of of intimacy
and close contact in public space as a
public good I think that there are
incredible systems that we've devised to
deport people I think that the prison
industrial complex is an incredible
system so if we can design these systems
I believe that we can also design
freedom I think that we can also design
public good and public health and to not
enlist artists and artistic intelligence
in that design would be a mistake and so
that's the thing that I think I spent
the majority of the presentation
advocating for is is the is assigning
and deploying artists the same way that
we would think about bringing several
the plans to bear if they were a
Manhattan Project if if we were if if we
thought of public health the same way
that we thought of weapons building who
would we bring to the table and
hopefully it wouldn't just be scientists
it would be humanitarians as well [Doug] it's
great I love this idea of deploying
artists and moving them in more
mainstream and less weird but also
keeping and celebrating that weird and
and celebrating that fringe but I have
to stop talking because I need to pass
this over to Sunil who wants to jump in
[Sunil] no I just I was very inspired by me yeah
I thought that that was very really like
your presentation I think that's the
core point that we all should think
about um I guess what I would it's more
of a question just to ask if people if
you feel any sectors are particularly
ripe for that kind of transition or you
know incorporation of artists and arts
workers in that way I mean I think you
mentioned public health and there's been
really some great I think in last few
years and very encouraging signs of you
know of coming together among you know
public or public health departments arts
cultural agencies doing work and artists
I can think of R&D and business
communities where we clearly there's a
big role for innovation through the Arts
and I know there's been some attempts to
have artists and residents and those
kinds of programs or their particular
sectors you think they're going to
listen more to this call than others any
of you it's curious [Linda] I'm biased Sunil 
but I would say public education
[Bamuthi] I would I would say this is why
Linda's foundational call in response to
the first question is so important
because what are the sectors trying to
do you know the the National Football
League isn't a humanitarian organization
they're trying to you know its its
bottom line is make its to make money
using the instrument that's available to
it and to make money very specifically
for its 30-something owners which is why
the Commissioner of the National
Football League comes out on Friday and
says yeah black lives matter go ahead
protest right there's and it's why
you're seeing all these corporate
statements because it's very difficult
to avoid the zeitgeist in this moment so
so maybe a rephrasing of the question is
that all sectors are are ripe for this
kind of integration and and kind of but
they but they have to shift what they
perceive as their bottom line if the
bottom line is only financial capital
then none of them are but if the bottom
line is social capital political capital
if we think about equity if we think
about them equity inside of the moral
economy the same way that we think of
equity inside a financial economy then
though then it's wide open
but we have to go there first [Lucy] I want to
it might have been because the I
absolutely agree I'm very inspired by
this one of the things that I've often
thought about is you know often and
there's a whole literature on how people
come together in disasters and all kinds
of paradises get built and then they
dissipate it seems to me one sector that
I struggle with mightily and my whole
professional career has spent trying to
understand this is this thing called the
nonprofit sector which is as
hierarchical and structured for
capitalization purposes as as any other
industry and it's also I think
and I was gonna say fraying but I don't
think that's the right verb but we'll
use it for now in ways that offer
tremendous opportunity and and what you
see around it as we often also do in
quote-unquote disasters are these
community movements social movements
these unstructured informal ways of
being that are driven by values other
than financial value which is also one
of these first principles we keep sort
of circling around I often say to people
you know the number one I live in San
Francisco number one financial value
around here is efficiency but if I were
to list my top ten values for you it
doesn't come anywhere it's nowhere near
the list you know what happened to truth
and beauty and justice and those kinds
of things so it's long way of saying I'm
agreeing with whoever said it might be
all sectors I think everything is under
such the the the foundations of almost
everything every public system we've
built and this adjacent nonprofit sector
and probably many corporations as well
are showing that they were built on
quicksand and how do we capture what's
happening already and I think the arts
if there's a sector that a sector
it's where artists live it's where
people who pursue I don't think of
artists as weird so much as those who
proudly pursue a set of other values
first and foremost and the one that our
current society has privileged above all
others of efficiency it's not a it's a
wishy-washy answer and that I don't know
how to make it more practical but I
think that's that there's tremendous
possibility there and I think we have to
I for one lead the charge and saying
let's reimagine this whole Civic space
this whole civil society thing it's got
those many fractures and fissures and
unuseful elements to it as
as the marketplace in the government as
[Doug] well it's good thank you
well I want to take that as a chance to
bounce it back over to Jon who I think
has lots to say both about sort of
different organizational structures and
legal types
I'm glad you broach the non-profit thing
because the NFL might be one of my
favorite nonprofits out there as a way
of teaching us a lesson about what
nonprofit really means but Jon's got a
different vantage on this and I also
want you to get have a chance to comment
on how you might think about this
generally about systems to support
creativity and what other insights yes
it may be two different pieces that may
or may not be something you can weave together [Jon] yeah I
don't know if I can weave together but this
is this is such a great conversation and
I 100% agree with Bamuthi your point
of like what are we design a system for
so I Doug and Sunil are aware of a
project I've been working on quite some
find out for Kickstarter which is like
how do we evaluate our mission
performance how do we you know we're a
public benefit corporation we are trying
not to maximize try to create a
different bottom line than just having
financial return be our primary value
we're not a nonprofit that we want to
create a sustainable business that can
operate independently just with a
different bottom line than revenue so we
have to evaluate well what is the value
what if the creative value of the work
that we're supporting what is our value
in that process and what is the
diversity what is the creative diversity
of the ecosystems a whole in order for
it to be healthy those are very
difficult questions to answer and as
I've gone through the process of trying
to figure out how we can answer that
question what I found is in the u.s. the
value is always money right all of the
creative any sort of creative value
nonprofit space bottom line is well
what's the economic impact with that
right and that's what we're designing
for which is I don't think that is the
bottom line like so how we have to
reimagine what would it were to be
designing the system for and abroad
they're they've you know in Europe in
other countries they talk more about
trying to find another bottom line but
nowhere has really done it well as far
as I've been able to find yet and you
still have the nonprofit problem which
is the the frameworks and methodologies
they've developed to try to form a
different bottom line are being created
by people that are in organisations that
are just trying to justify their own
existence and get funders right so it's
it's actually kind of the same bottom
line but one step removed and we're in a
position where we're actually just doing
this because we think it like you know
it doesn't change anything in terms of
our capital we're just trying to create
a healthier ecosystem but no one that
we've been with find who's actually
created methodology for this without
money as the thing that they're
ultimately aiming at for I was like
maybe far as I can find and what's
beautiful about the moment that we're
currently seeing in terms of the
challenge to policing in the United
States is that it is a discussion about
well wait what if we reimagine this
entire thing worth the value what this
is the big part of debate right it's
like reforms versus defund abolish the
police and everyone's kind of freaking
out about abolish the police from the
police but but it's opening up this
conversation of a really radical
reimagining of the underlying values of
what this is and how we relate to each
other in community and that's a if we
can all these systems are interconnected
actually at the end of the day and if we
can start reimagining you know how what
we build our society for in one area I
think we can start pulling it into into
the rest [Doug] Linda did you want to jump in [Linda] yeah I just I'm starting to
form an idea so I'm and I'm speaking it
out loud to 250 people or over many are
listening but I think you know we're
talking a lot about systems and I think
I think the answers aren't going to be
at that macro level but really in
communities
settings and as I was thinking that Lucy
put something in the chat box about what
about healthy community food systems so
when we look at at arts activity in
community settings in with for
communities with community support those
have the potential to be healthier when
we look and think about this notion of
policing if we invest in communities in
education and Community Arts and
Community Services and bring police in
as community members as part of a
community that month you know and then
network these communities together so in
this utopian imaginary that's Lucy's
word again she's good with the metaphors
Thank You Lucy is you know this this
utopia of networked communities where
our communities are really working
internally and then working across
communities with one another but the the
the centralization of financial capital
and a few small corporations and to some
extent a few a few nonprofit large
nonprofit organizations works against
that idea and that's why you have people
like like like the artists I mentioned
to you know is out of work there
needs to be a community level support
for those folks
just the thought [Doug] thank you so I'm gonna
interject briefly here to also remind
the audience that's out there to email
in and tweet in questions we're getting
near an end time where we can start
taking some I've heard it see there's a
bunch of there's a bunch of them they've
been collected but we're collecting more
as we go and I'm gonna get fed some of
these questions as we go but maybe I'll
give one last sort of question for me
that I'm gonna pop over to Sunil
about what you see is some lessons
learned here as we insofar as we react
to the pandemic or other crises of the
moment what do you think is some of the
lessons learned that across your desk
[Sunil] you know I could just say I'll happen to
live in Maryland and I don't think I'll
ever be quite nostalgic
about my commute morning commute two
into the city but that said one one time
I remember way before all this happened
like years ago I was commuting and you
know I was on my phone as often am
checking work messages replying busily
somebody I knew who didn't work at the
National Endowment for the Arts came up to me
and like who I knew knew anyway said to
me you know what are you doing
you look so engaged because she goes um
you know there are no emergencies in the
arts she basically told me because she
knew I worked at the Arts now and now
ralick statement now is I guess not only
emergencies for the arts but I think
nationally and how the arts are you know
clearly part of the solution I think as
we're all saying in a systemic way I
said that because you reminded me and I
think what I'm trying to get across here
is a lot of what we've discussed so far
I think necessarily involves starting
some things from scratch right but I
also want to shout out to the fact that
there sis they're sort of you know
there's some bright spots right without
being Pollyannish or some places where
these convergences have been happening
and built and made stronger one
thing I'd like to point out which we
didn't really discuss and maybe this is
a lesson learned is uh you know we have
a couple of great colleagues Brian
lusher and Andy Mathis who frequently go
to Puerto Rico and and the Virgin
Islands over well after the hurricane
problems that happen you know assist
with recovery and ongoing not just fly
in and leave but really stay and help
the communities there I think that kind
of disaster relief consciousness or that
kind of mindset of emergency
preparedness is something that I think
art the arts now has to kind of take in
and sustain and we have to continue to
think about ourselves on the front lines
of rebuilding in many of these cases I
just think it's a couple of quick things
zanny boss some of you know and Jill
Robinson put a report out recently
called the long haul in it for the long
haul
talking largely about nonprofit arts
cultural organizations after the
pandemic and one of the things she says
in it is local audiences local talent
indeed the local supply chain will reign
supreme this is assuming that the travel
industry is going to be hit very hard
and we're not going to have the ability
to be as geographically mobile so I
think that again throws us back in on
ourselves and our local communities and
finding solutions
our communities and so I mean I don't
know how that's operationalize but I
think that's a key lesson for me is that
the local supply chain really attending
to the circles that are broadening out
in these larger concentric circles for
the Arts and for people to participate
more fully I said enough but one quick
thing I think virtual engagement is we
talked about that what that looks like
in maintaining equity inclusion in these
platforms and ensuring that you know we
don't move into a monolithic scenario
with arts on through the internet and
online I think that we preserve these
different voices somehow it's going to
be crucial as well [Doug] that's that's great
Sunil thank you you're continuing
to set me up well on this and I'm going
to mention that one of the comments were
getting bit from the AEI backstage room
is that you've been dropping a lot of
statistics and numbers Sunil and people
want to know your sources they want to
know where this research is coming from
and have you share it so maybe rather
than having you listed all now we'll
find a way to get that info back to
these people [Sunil] well they really want to know that
this is legit [Doug] I don't think they were questioning it, I thin they're curious [Sunil] I thought I just threw out
big numbers [Doug] but actually the
last point that you mentioned in your
remarks there is something that comes to
us a question wants to build off that
that comes to us from Twitter from Bente
Bouthier I probably
butchered that name and I apologize for
it but I'll read it and since while many
many organizations have adapted to
digital models during the pandemic how
could moving away from in-person
consumption of art an exchange of ideas
impact the arts sector long term
[Bamuthi] I just have an emotional response and
the emotional response comes from I'm
here in Washington DC
I don't live too far away from 1600
blacklivesmatter Plaza and I rode my
bike around this weekend and was moved
chilled and a little scared as I weaved
in and out of protests probably 95% of
the people that were out had masks on
but there were a few that didn't and I
the the dual crises of I guess one of
the questions that was launched for me
is why are people out here risking
literally risking their health and I
have to think that there's some
understanding that we are only as safe
as the members of our community who are
most at risk and so there's something
about this moment where the the risk was
worth it for tens of thousands of people
across all 50 states and dozens of
countries
so let's transpose that to arts
experiences and creative experiences is
what's worth the risk of coming together
in intimate space to engage in
collectively in creative practices and
creative imagination what is the
calculus in terms of our self-concept
our Civic constant
what degree what variable what weight
does Public Engagement hold in our
self-concept and in our Civic concept
there's this is lovely I love seeing you
guys in your boxes you guys are gorgeous
I really appreciate it but but in terms
of my self-concept there's something
missing here you know there's so I think
that what the arts sector has to
consider what we're all wrestling with
is that the virtual experience delivers
content but not humanity the the virtual
experience isn't why we got into this
thing and it's not the function it does
not answer the question what does our
country need from us right now our
country I believe needs for us to design
systems that bring people back together
because everything then cascades over
our economic well-being our you know our
sense of morality it cascades over into
this thing of if if there is no public
good there's a difference I guess
between something that happens in public
and a public moment you know I mean a
public value and so I think that the
arts sector can't go the arts sector has
to figure out a way to evolve forward I
you know it's the the equity and the
democracy that's demonstrated in having
these virtual channels the the
collective access that we have to sublime
art that we may not have had before is
amazing and that's a fantastic content
strategy but it's not the actual mandate
for the arts sector it's not what the
world needs right now
[Doug] interesting well I think we have time to
sneak in one other question here at
least this one comes also from Twitter
from the Alliance for the Arts and
research universities what are we doing
to give our citizens and our students in
our current systems access and time to
develop creative intelligence
you want to take that one off
[Linda] um I'll I guess being a Dean in a
university and this might be directed at
me um we have to whether it's virtually
or in real-time provides students while
they're in school and I would say this K
through graduate school opportunities to
fail and to figure stuff out you know
you don't you don't build creative
intelligence by doing something someone
else told you to do over and over again
you build creative intelligence by by
doing new things and putting them out in
the world and seeing if they fly I think
I mix my metaphors but that's that you
know ultimately it comes down to that
giving students opportunities to build
creativity to to develop their own
voices and one of our strategic
priorities in the College of Arts and
Letters at Cal State LA product
placement is to build voices for social
justice that's a college priority right
we have to give students an opportunity
to do that and to to fail at doing that
and be supported in that failure and get
back up and dust off and do it again and
grow creatively
[Doug] other thoughts on this one
[Jon] I'll just jump in
you know I think just a building on that
the most creative spaces that I've seen
built before like people emerging
artists or ones that value the pursuit
of new ideas rather than the actual
success of them right if all you do is
and this is where actually digital
platforms are really come off me really
bag as they value often success and I
are optimizing just for like getting
there and winning the attention or
almost on the like war and all that
stuff but when you have a space that is
just like well are you working on
something and is it is it kind of weird
is it on the edge great a lot of that
stuff's gonna be terrible but it doesn't
matter because that's where the best
stuff emerges that and that's that I
think is I've seen very few spaces that
actually build value systems where that
is like kind of the culture and that's
what's valued rather than was it really
successful in the end
[Doug] good thanks so I've got a remark from
and a question from Rachel Skaggs who's
at the Ohio State University and she's
in our backstage room and zoom
apparently and here's what she writes I
love the conversation on arts thinking
is key to systems building which is
definitely linked to creative
placemaking and place keeping in social
practice are are there recent examples
of arts interventions into society
happening in your communities or how
does it rephrase they're examples of
this that come to mind that you can
share and discuss it with [Bamuthi] yeah for me
it's it's hard not to think about what
what well first with
Theaster Gates has done in Chicago on
the south side of Chicago what Rick Lowe
has done with project row houses in
Third Ward in Houston what Quran Davis
has done on Crenshaw Avenue with
destination Crenshaw all these examples
are examples of creative communities
hacking real estate and encouraging both
inside and outside not only a reclaiming
a physical space but a but a claiming of
psychological space again going back to
what we perceive as beautiful and
valuable but those you know all those
examples I think are very instructive
because they they do go back to the
Black Panther parties you know
principles we want land right so where
the arts sector I think is most
successful in terms of making these
kinds of incursions have everything to
do with
a kind of reclamation of square blocks
if not square miles in major cities now
this can happen in rural communities and
in urban communities as well but these
artists have essentially formed these
small oasis where creative enterprises
or creative thought or a different kind
of value system might flourish they've
created micro economies but they needed
land to do it not buildings but square
mileage right square footage is not
going straight up so I think this too is
one of those places where virtual space
is exciting and offers a prompt in terms
of and offers safe haven in terms of
where ideas might flourish but without
space to grow in the material world it's
a little bit more difficult to attach
that to our current economic system to
our to our current understanding of what
value is and what is valuable um it's
also interesting to me that the examples
that I gave destination Crenshaw project
row houses and and rebuild that these
are prompts from the visual arts sector
and the economy in the visual arts
sector is different than the economy in
my sector in the performing arts sector
because if I make a dance it has lots of
value to me but not as much value as the
photograph behind me as a matter of fact
this photograph can be sold but my dance
cannot right so there's a way that
visual artists have used the financial
resources from the sale of their work to
then support themselves on a higher
level but also to create land bases from
which their creative ideas might might
flourish so those are three examples
that that I would cite but they also
open up a whole new can of
in terms of how we get the financial
resources to support these mini oasis of
interdependence creative activity and
support for historically marginalized
communities [Doug] great thank you all right so
I just got another great question from
from an email that I think is gonna
touch on something we've already talked
about a little bit for this distinction
between sort of blowing stuff up and
more radical reforms or reimagining
versus more incremental things and I
think generally attention we all feel or
see about trying to push to get back to
the way things were that these systems
are designed often to be really
resilient and to a fault in some obvious
examples today so here's the question
from Priya Sircar have the panelists see
as the role of philanthropy in
reimagining or dismantling the current
system
question but small answers are okay [Sunil] well
I just thought that you know all of us
those of us who are arts in the arts
funding organizations we know that
cross-sectoral funding cross-sectoral
initiatives that's been a kind of
buzzword for the last several years
among the philanthropists community and
I think now we're in a position that you
know really look at which you know which
kinds of mashups of sectors are maybe
most viable even in the short term and I
think again I can only say like I think
I love examples just given about what we
might consider creative placemaking we
had to label it but I think that's a
really strong vibrant sector within the
arts alone I think a lot of the work
around arts and health arts in public
health but also arts being used in in
clinics and clinic out clinic settings
for a range of services that we might
consider social services and substance
abuse to trauma recovery a whole bunch
of things I think there's already some
embeddedness going on there now I don't
think that we're in a position to say
it's an you know it's gotten to where we
all would like it where the arts and
artists doing the work of this are
valued as you know instrumental to these
systems but I think we're much further
along I think from our little corner of
the world I think what we can do is try
to for example support research and
build up evidence that will speak to
those communities which are using
different vocabularies from all of us
right and really speak their language a
little bit it does require maybe a
little discomfort because we want rapid
change we want radical change in many
cases systemically that's warranted but
I think at the same time doing it
incrementally is the only real I think
viable short to medium term solution
being a relentless incrementalist
you know about this and yet while doing
that not losing sight of the vision you
know so I think I think you know I think
we've made some progress as funders
together and collaborating with other
other kinds of funders whether it's you
know collaborations with arts funders
and say the Robert Wood Johnson
Foundation or you know looking at you
know certainly other organizations that
are doing work and place-based
initiatives where the arts isn't
necessarily central to their mission I
think that has to continue
[Lucy] I was just gonna say I think
there's a really interesting possibility
here that's occurring to me from this
whole conversation one of the things
that and I I mostly work with
philanthropic foundations who are by law
required to fund institutions and then
you've got something like a Kickstarter
and the re-visability not that
they're not new they've been there
forever but a new visibility on mutual
aid support networks right the arts is
an area is sort of in this siloed world
we think of where the individual and a
collective of people is still really
recognized as the power it's the
creative energy not the institution
itself so how can we encourage the big
money that's locked up in these big
foundations that by norm and law fund
organizations only and we can't get the
money to the people and things like
Kickstarter bail funds mutual aid
networks where there's been this reattention
to the end you know the fact that
we had a presidential candidate who
socialized the phrase universal basic
income didn't succeed in it but really
shift the attention I'm not anti
institution but we're talking about
people here I mean Linda started us off
talking about an individual artist so is
there a way to deliberately hybridize
some of this keeping the power in the
distributed networks but the money is
locked up in these big piles and
distributing it out through these
networks where the the individual and
the collective
is the center of energy and let those be
the I'm gonna now metaphor mash mushroom
up some new institutional structures for
us I think we've got some and you know
the rules that make philanthropy work
the way it works are utterly changeable
they're human world we made them we
wrote them we can rewrite them
but that recognition and there's a such
power in that because I'm having a hard
time at thinking of any other sector of
philanthropy where we know the creative
energy is not the institution as much as
the individuals I'm not coming up with
... we don't anyway so I think there's
a real moment there to reimagine some of
these systems maybe we could stop
locking people up so we stopped needing
bail and we can use bail funds as art
funds or something like that ties right
back into the police defunding situation
all of that money redirecting it [Doug] Jon
[Jon] yeah okay
I'll try to be quick about this because
one I've been working on this problem at
Kickstarter for a while as well yeah
we're trying to access those giant pools
capital and redistribute them at scale
to a lot of individuals right like and
this is actually something I've been
pitching foundations and philanthropy
institutions for a while in my spare
time it's not my primary job I guess but
it's something that it makes total sense
it's very hard to get those institutions
to change and we have to basically
launder the money because it's not set
up for this so I have to take a
foundation I've worked with the knight
foundation on this the knight foundation
made a grant to American documentary at
an American documentary pledged in two
campaigns right and in talking them
about this program my point is that I
was like you know if we have five
hundred thousand dollars
I would much rather have two
hundred thousand dollars going to a
hundred artists in very small amounts
that we can leverage through our
platform through community adding it to
community support to reply to a platform
like Kickstarter then five grants of
$100,000 because those five grants or
$100,000 tend to go to people that are
very privileged in cities with
connections to large institutions and
they tend to look more like me and you
know we want to be in very small towns
across everywhere with access to
everyone and that small amount can
catalyze a huge change for those artists
lives so that's one piece of this so
we're
on this if people want to talk about
this please reach out to me but and the
other thing I want to mention here
actually comes from a climate work idea
because I'm also a head of
sustainability at kickstarter and I do a
lot of climate change work and there's a
problem in climate change that it's
being solved that I don't see being
solved in some of the problems that
we're talking about which is the gap
between traditional philanthropy and
venture capital right so climate change
you can have charities that just donate
money to something that's doing you know
fighting climate change but it's in
seeking return it tends to be a
non-profit or you have venture capital
search trying to make it a 10x 20x
return and it leaves this massive gap of
opportunity where you need a ton of
capital going into companies and
solutions that may have a go may just
return the capital right it'll give them
if things work out well it's 1 or 2 X
return to the granting institution and
actually don't have things set up for
that mechanisms or capital frameworks to
really do that kind of a capital
allocation that's something as we think
about well what do we need to rebuild
the institutions the foundations of how
arts are supported shared distributed
made in society we have this massive gap
they were coming back they're a company
like ampled which you know I really
want to succeed even if it hurts
Kickstarter there's no capital for them
because they're not going to get
philanthropy money because they are a
non-profit and they're not going to get
venture capital money because they're
maximizing financial return but
ultimately that solution is if it can
flourish and be self sustainable as far
more impactful and equitable than what
most nonprofits are doing and certainly
for-profit companies are doing and so
thinking about different ways to deploy
capital and ways that are sustainable
that help grow a better soil develop a
better soil for us is something that I
think needs to be considered [Bamuthi] if I can
just jump in here and unfortunately I
just have to challenge the premise of
the question
because you know what philanthropy the
the core of philanthropic giving is over
generations an individual a family has
made zillions of dollars destroying the
planet and then spends point zero zero
one percent of the zillions of dollars
that they've made to you know and
there's a graphic going around right now
where New York City is spending
something like six billion dollars on
its police force and 750 million dollars
on youth and Community Development
the question isn't for philanthropy
whose model is you know thanks to you
know thanks to Jon and - you know and -
Lucy - Sunil really all for all four of
you that are rethinking how funds are
distributed in terms of the public good
but it's a trap - to ask what could
fillet have to be doing be doing better
you know this goes back to you know Lucy
sighting of Andrew yang and a universal
basic income it goes back to a kind of
pre Reagan you know 1950s 1960s tax
structure quite honestly what are you
know this is back to a Bernie Sanders
Elizabeth Warren reading of of the tax
code it's just a sigh I mean I love
Elizabeth Warren's idea of a billionaire
tax which is like make your money man
but after after a while how much right
so I just wanna I love all the
innovations that are being made in the
realm of philanthropy but I just think
that we have to challenge the the
premise of the question itself because
the place is an undue burden the same
way that I think that we place sometimes
an undue burden on the artists to come
in and do a poem for disadvantaged kids
and then we're mad when
racism doesn't end at the end of the
poem you know I mean it's it it doesn't
work like that in terms of the moral
landscape and it doesn't work like that
in terms of the financial landscape we
really have to think our tax rethink
our tax structure and what our
priorities are in terms of the civic
good it can't just be on philanthropy to
undo all these systemic pathologies [Doug] on that thank you
I'm really excited to be ending this in some ways with questioning
the premise and the question in the
first place I take that as a huge sign
of success for the conversation that
we've accomplished a lot there and I
wish we could go on much longer actually
in part cuz I've got a a giant stack of
questions that only seem to keep getting
better from the audience so there's a
lot of demand and curiosity for what you
all have to say which just means I
should be especially thankful to all of
my panelists all five of you for coming
together joining us having this
conversation thank you very much
does anybody have a last word or six
they want to throw in who run into the
lunch hour I don't see any digital hands
going up so with that thank you all very
much everyone else stay tuned you can
keep watching this we get a little
information on about our Center but
otherwise we're going to be back at 1 o'clock for panel B
which should also be very exciting thank
you all everybody [Bamuthi] really appreciate
y'all thank you [Linda] thank you Doug [Lucy] thank you [Sunil] thanks very much
