
English: 
First of all, thank you so much
for doing this. I honestly,
the more I read about
you, the more I'm fascinated,
the more I want to
learn more and I get
front row seats for a
conversation like this. I'm happy.
I don't need anything else,
but it's, it's so interesting
to me because this is
something I've been discovering myself.
And I'm buffered you see
Anvesh is 17.
I'm not much older. I'm
24, myself. This is the
first time I'm entering this
domain. And this domain appears
from the outside to be
so vicious and vile that
people who are a certain
way in person are so
much different on Twitter. As
soon as politics gets involved.
It's just so weird. Yeah,
no, it's, I'm very conscious
of it. Like I don't
think of it as a
real means of communication and
I'm probably guilty of it
too, you know, but I
like to, to make that

English: 
First of all, thank you so much
for doing this. I honestly,
the more I read about
you, the more I'm fascinated,
the more I want to
learn more and I get
front row seats for a
conversation like this. I'm happy.
I don't need anything else,
but it's, it's so interesting
to me because this is
something I've been discovering myself.
And I'm buffered you see
Anvesh is 17.
I'm not much older. I'm
24, myself. This is the
first time I'm entering this
domain. And this domain appears
from the outside to be
so vicious and vile that
people who are a certain
way in person are so
much different on Twitter. As
soon as politics gets involved.
It's just so weird. Yeah,
no, it's, I'm very conscious
of it. Like I don't
think of it as a
real means of communication and
I'm probably guilty of it
too, you know, but I
like to, to make that

English: 
clarification that there are these
different levels of communication, Twitter
being the lowest, even an
op-ed is a posture.
You have a thousand words,
you have to say something
that's fairly like it's not
reasoned or deep. It's, it's
a provocation to thought at
most. And then obviously one
hopes with, if you have
the fortune of writing books,
that that's where the actual
more meaningful things can be
said. So the way I
think of postures or at
least I was, apparently you
said what you did was
that it's sort of a
mask that people put on
it sort of, when I
think of political posturing, it's,
it's sort of almost like
I'm referring to a different
crowd altogether for a different
purpose altogether, so I can
be free to have a
different personality.
Do you mean a differently
or do you mean it
just the same? I mean,
in exactly the same way
and one has to be,
I suppose, very careful not
to let the mask eat
into the face. You know,
you shouldn't become that identity
because exactly what you said.
There's a man called Chotay Wala,
!for instance, who, you

English: 
clarification that there are these
different levels of communication, Twitter
being the lowest, even an
op-ed is a posture.
You have a thousand words,
you have to say something
that's fairly like it's not
reasoned or deep. It's, it's
a provocation to thought at
most. And then obviously one
hopes with, if you have
the fortune of writing books,
that that's where the actual
more meaningful things can be
said. So the way I
think of postures or at
least I was, apparently you
said what you did was
that it's sort of a
mask that people put on
it sort of, when I
think of political posturing, it's,
it's sort of almost like
I'm referring to a different
crowd altogether for a different
purpose altogether, so I can
be free to have a
different personality.
Do you mean a differently
or do you mean it
just the same? I mean,
in exactly the same way
and one has to be,
I suppose, very careful not
to let the mask eat
into the face. You know,
you shouldn't become that identity
because exactly what you said.
There's a man called Chotay Wala,
!for instance, who, you

English: 
know, he can be quite
vicious on Twitter and my
friend Ashok Malik at
the MEA, said he couldn't
be a nicer man in
real life, you know? And
I'm sure that's true so
that we are, you know,
it's, it's, it, it, and,
and, and that's why I
think it's, it's, it's, it's
very, it's it becomes very
difficult when that frenzy or
that energy of posturing starts
to bleed into like more
serious decisions where people start
to make editorial decisions or
people start to lose jobs,
or people start to be
counsels.
Then you're suddenly like, you're
like, it's, it's, it's sort
of like a game or
a joke that's been taken
too far. Right. Right. And
I mean, I think one
of the more interesting parts
about you is that it
is not just that you
write journalistically, you also write
fiction books, you write novel,
it's not just fiction books,
but novels in general, you
explore the psyche of gap.
You explore the psyche of
yourself in so many places.
And I think it'd be
an interesting question

English: 
know, he can be quite
vicious on Twitter and my
friend Ashok Malik at
the MEA, said he couldn't
be a nicer man in
real life, you know? And
I'm sure that's true so
that we are, you know,
it's, it's, it, it, and,
and, and that's why I
think it's, it's, it's, it's
very, it's it becomes very
difficult when that frenzy or
that energy of posturing starts
to bleed into like more
serious decisions where people start
to make editorial decisions or
people start to lose jobs,
or people start to be
counsels.
Then you're suddenly like, you're
like, it's, it's, it's sort
of like a game or
a joke that's been taken
too far. Right. Right. And
I mean, I think one
of the more interesting parts
about you is that it
is not just that you
write journalistically, you also write
fiction books, you write novel,
it's not just fiction books,
but novels in general, you
explore the psyche of gap.
You explore the psyche of
yourself in so many places.
And I think it'd be
an interesting question

English: 
To ask if this mask
eating into the face phenomena,
apart from it, having consequences
to the external world, what
do you think? Does it
not like for me, I
grew up and I don't
know why I genuinely do
not. If you ever come
across my content on either
platforms, the number one value
I hold so close to
myself is the sense of
disgust I get from public
performances. It's like, I'm not
going to be able to
do that. Right. And I
wonder if one day I
let my guard down. And
that, that, that pressure, that,
that appears from, you know,
having some sort of a
public life starts to eat
into me, is that going
to affect me personally?
Do you think these people
who put on masks to
the point where their faces
are eaten, does it have
a consequence on their everyday
life?
I think it can have
a tremendous consequence. I, it,
it all comes down to
the kind of people are
able to make these separations
actors do it all the
time are, I think public
personalities, public intellectuals can make
these divisions. They can also
divide different sides of themselves
and save the realm of
the imagination or thoughtfulness for

English: 
To ask if this mask
eating into the face phenomena,
apart from it, having consequences
to the external world, what
do you think? Does it
not like for me, I
grew up and I don't
know why I genuinely do
not. If you ever come
across my content on either
platforms, the number one value
I hold so close to
myself is the sense of
disgust I get from public
performances. It's like, I'm not
going to be able to
do that. Right. And I
wonder if one day I
let my guard down. And
that, that, that pressure, that,
that appears from, you know,
having some sort of a
public life starts to eat
into me, is that going
to affect me personally?
Do you think these people
who put on masks to
the point where their faces
are eaten, does it have
a consequence on their everyday
life?
I think it can have
a tremendous consequence. I, it,
it all comes down to
the kind of people are
able to make these separations
actors do it all the
time are, I think public
personalities, public intellectuals can make
these divisions. They can also
divide different sides of themselves
and save the realm of
the imagination or thoughtfulness for

English: 
like an area where it
can come out, such as
books or, you know, people
can make these divisions, but
it's a constant that requires
a constant vigilance because it
is very corrosive.
It's very addictive. And it's,
it's sometimes it's feels like
it's everything, it's not everything,
you know, and it's, and
it's not even a close
approximation to the truth. And
so, so I think that
that is, that is it's,
it's, it's, it's something that
can be done, but again,
like, it depends on, I
suppose, somebody's level of self
awareness. Right, right. And
It's not just Twitter, though.
For me personally, I give
up on TV news a
very long time ago. I
was like, this just does
not seem like real people,
at least on the Indian
TV circus, which is absolutely
baffling that it passes as
journalism to me. And you
realize within those six minutes
shouting contest that the true

English: 
like an area where it
can come out, such as
books or, you know, people
can make these divisions, but
it's a constant that requires
a constant vigilance because it
is very corrosive.
It's very addictive. And it's,
it's sometimes it's feels like
it's everything, it's not everything,
you know, and it's, and
it's not even a close
approximation to the truth. And
so, so I think that
that is, that is it's,
it's, it's, it's something that
can be done, but again,
like, it depends on, I
suppose, somebody's level of self
awareness. Right, right. And
It's not just Twitter, though.
For me personally, I give
up on TV news a
very long time ago. I
was like, this just does
not seem like real people,
at least on the Indian
TV circus, which is absolutely
baffling that it passes as
journalism to me. And you
realize within those six minutes
shouting contest that the true

English: 
victim in this situation is
me. Who's here to gather
information that is almost no
sane way to understand this
private part of all these
public personas who are decision
makers and thought leaders of
some nature.
And you end up feeling
you end up attributing grander
causality just more. No, but
this is why so, and
so must have done that
while it turns out that
the reason is something far
more different from the posturing
that I am used to,
that the data points that
I'm absorbing from looking at
them outside. And part of
the reason why this, why
I started down this, how,
I don't know how to
say, but like this political
chain of guests to speak
about all these political issues
is because I was so
bad. There's no way to
make sense of this from
the outside. Right. I wonder
you being in America now
that you were in New York,
how hooked do you be
to the Indian political scene?
Are you still very hooked?
Yeah. You know, I,
I don't want to, I'm
in a situation where the
things that are, that actually
feed me about India, which
is actually just being in
India and being a, and

English: 
victim in this situation is
me. Who's here to gather
information that is almost no
sane way to understand this
private part of all these
public personas who are decision
makers and thought leaders of
some nature.
And you end up feeling
you end up attributing grander
causality just more. No, but
this is why so, and
so must have done that
while it turns out that
the reason is something far
more different from the posturing
that I am used to,
that the data points that
I'm absorbing from looking at
them outside. And part of
the reason why this, why
I started down this, how,
I don't know how to
say, but like this political
chain of guests to speak
about all these political issues
is because I was so
bad. There's no way to
make sense of this from
the outside. Right. I wonder
you being in America now
that you were in New York,
how hooked do you be
to the Indian political scene?
Are you still very hooked?
Yeah. You know, I,
I don't want to, I'm
in a situation where the
things that are, that actually
feed me about India, which
is actually just being in
India and being a, and

English: 
traveling specially like those things
are sort of closed off
to me. And so I
keep, keep, you know, I've
always balanced two or three
societies in my head at
the same time. And, and,
and, and I make it
a point to, to sort
of stay in touch and
to sort of keep an
eye on what's going on,
but I avoid the more
corrosive side of it, because
I think that that's, that's
in a sense, like part
of the freedom of the
thing that's happened to me
or the situation that I'm
in, I don't have to
get my hands dirty in
the same way.
I don't really have to
like, like take on the
more corrosive side of, of
what's going on. And we
are living through that kind
of steroidal age of sensationalism,
you know? I mean, it's,
it's, it's, it's really, it
was bad five years ago.
It's worse now. It feels
like it could be worse
still. So, you know, I
mean, it's short of like
literally murdering somebody on television

English: 
traveling specially like those things
are sort of closed off
to me. And so I
keep, keep, you know, I've
always balanced two or three
societies in my head at
the same time. And, and,
and, and I make it
a point to, to sort
of stay in touch and
to sort of keep an
eye on what's going on,
but I avoid the more
corrosive side of it, because
I think that that's, that's
in a sense, like part
of the freedom of the
thing that's happened to me
or the situation that I'm
in, I don't have to
get my hands dirty in
the same way.
I don't really have to
like, like take on the
more corrosive side of, of
what's going on. And we
are living through that kind
of steroidal age of sensationalism,
you know? I mean, it's,
it's, it's, it's really, it
was bad five years ago.
It's worse now. It feels
like it could be worse
still. So, you know, I
mean, it's short of like
literally murdering somebody on television

English: 
where like, we're very, very
close to about rock bottom.
So, so yeah, I mean,
you want to be insulated,
You really do. I mean,
I did not give two
s***s about the controversy
until I arrived in India.
And then my grandfather's television,
all it blares is Rhea
Chakrabarti at this point. And
so that it's like the
next step is that she's
going to appear in my
dreams. Cause there's just so
much Rhea Chakrabarti on the Indian
television scene. So in that
limited,
Something like that is so
insidious because it's, it's become
a kind of vehicle for
a much deeper culture war.
And, and, and so it's,
you know, one thing is
playing out on the surface,
but we know that it
has undercurrents of a much
deeper kind of change that
people are trying to affect.
And you have to question
that even if they were
right, even if they were
saying that Bollywood was a
club and that it was
dominated by English speakers, even
if all of that was
correct, like, is this the
way to change it?

English: 
where like, we're very, very
close to about rock bottom.
So, so yeah, I mean,
you want to be insulated,
You really do. I mean,
I did not give two
s***s about the controversy
until I arrived in India.
And then my grandfather's television,
all it blares is Rhea
Chakrabarti at this point. And
so that it's like the
next step is that she's
going to appear in my
dreams. Cause there's just so
much Rhea Chakrabarti on the Indian
television scene. So in that
limited,
Something like that is so
insidious because it's, it's become
a kind of vehicle for
a much deeper culture war.
And, and, and so it's,
you know, one thing is
playing out on the surface,
but we know that it
has undercurrents of a much
deeper kind of change that
people are trying to affect.
And you have to question
that even if they were
right, even if they were
saying that Bollywood was a
club and that it was
dominated by English speakers, even
if all of that was
correct, like, is this the
way to change it?

English: 
You know, I literally going
to try to sort of
whip up this frenzy of
emotion and try to go
after these guys. And it's,
I mean, it doesn't feel
like anything that could, anything
that was resolved in this
way could bring out a
good outcome.
It does look like a
power struggle. It does. And,
but my complaint is not
as much with the power
struggle. I, in fact, even
with politics, I'm not as
upset or disappointed at the
politicians as I am at
the media men, cause my
eyes and ears are the
media men. Right. And when
I see a respected news
channel, broadcast images of Rhea
working out, while they comment
on her character, to some
extent, I'm like, come on,
like let's not play that
game. You know? And this
witch hunt, because it's taken
a shape of a witch
hunt, right? If you, I
don't know how you, I
hope you're not, I genuinely
hope you're not, but when
you see delivery boys and
security guards being hounded for
statements,
I see,

English: 
You know, I literally going
to try to sort of
whip up this frenzy of
emotion and try to go
after these guys. And it's,
I mean, it doesn't feel
like anything that could, anything
that was resolved in this
way could bring out a
good outcome.
It does look like a
power struggle. It does. And,
but my complaint is not
as much with the power
struggle. I, in fact, even
with politics, I'm not as
upset or disappointed at the
politicians as I am at
the media men, cause my
eyes and ears are the
media men. Right. And when
I see a respected news
channel, broadcast images of Rhea
working out, while they comment
on her character, to some
extent, I'm like, come on,
like let's not play that
game. You know? And this
witch hunt, because it's taken
a shape of a witch
hunt, right? If you, I
don't know how you, I
hope you're not, I genuinely
hope you're not, but when
you see delivery boys and
security guards being hounded for
statements,
I see,

English: 
Oh my God it is absurd,
but let me, let me
start you off in the
deep end when it comes
to witch hunt. I
want to ask you because
your tweet sort of triggered
the entire William Dalrymple witch
witch hunt on, on, on
Twitter as well. How does
it feel?
I mean, I was, I
feel like, I feel like
we have an ill start
relationship with every time I
reach out to really something
bad happens in this particular
instance. I really like, I,
I thought I was worried
that he wouldn't take any
kind of stand and I
felt it was important to
say something like, like, let
me say it once. Like
it was not my intention
that booms react one way
or the other way, whatever.
And, and, and I, I
fully legitimately think that it
is right to criticize the
point of at which they'd
come to and could they
still have done what they
did.
So all of that is
up for debate, but yeah,
I wanted to, like, we
also have the right to
protest. Bloomsbury is an imprint.
It's a Mark of quality

English: 
Oh my God it is absurd,
but let me, let me
start you off in the
deep end when it comes
to witch hunt. I
want to ask you because
your tweet sort of triggered
the entire William Dalrymple witch
witch hunt on, on, on
Twitter as well. How does
it feel?
I mean, I was, I
feel like, I feel like
we have an ill start
relationship with every time I
reach out to really something
bad happens in this particular
instance. I really like, I,
I thought I was worried
that he wouldn't take any
kind of stand and I
felt it was important to
say something like, like, let
me say it once. Like
it was not my intention
that booms react one way
or the other way, whatever.
And, and, and I, I
fully legitimately think that it
is right to criticize the
point of at which they'd
come to and could they
still have done what they
did.
So all of that is
up for debate, but yeah,
I wanted to, like, we
also have the right to
protest. Bloomsbury is an imprint.
It's a Mark of quality

English: 
of standards, you know, and
it represents a whole lot
of people. Who've worked very
hard to make that name
mean something. And if suddenly
that name is being debased
or it's being used in
a way that it would
never be used here or
in America or in England,
or, you know, to publish
a kind of writing that
isn't, that is firstly dubious
in its political connections, dubious
in its conclusions, dubious in
its quality.
I mean, we all have
the right to object too.
Some people who object I'll
just by-standers. Some people
are influential writers, but that,
so that I was, I
was sort of like, I
was congratulating him for speaking
out and, and of course,
like, you know, but that
was the, that was the
sort of right wing gang
playing mischief. I think they
were trying to use that
to sort of, to go
after him and yeah,
so I felt terrible about
it.
Right, right. I mean, I
don't know about feeling terrible
cause it's, it's sort of
become the kind of a

English: 
of standards, you know, and
it represents a whole lot
of people. Who've worked very
hard to make that name
mean something. And if suddenly
that name is being debased
or it's being used in
a way that it would
never be used here or
in America or in England,
or, you know, to publish
a kind of writing that
isn't, that is firstly dubious
in its political connections, dubious
in its conclusions, dubious in
its quality.
I mean, we all have
the right to object too.
Some people who object I'll
just by-standers. Some people
are influential writers, but that,
so that I was, I
was sort of like, I
was congratulating him for speaking
out and, and of course,
like, you know, but that
was the, that was the
sort of right wing gang
playing mischief. I think they
were trying to use that
to sort of, to go
after him and yeah,
so I felt terrible about
it.
Right, right. I mean, I
don't know about feeling terrible
cause it's, it's sort of
become the kind of a

English: 
situation where even if I
can speak from the very
limited experience, I have no
matter what I say on
my philosophy, YouTube channel say
I'm referring to Freud, right?
Fraud has nothing to do
with this entire debate. People
are going to come after
me still
Stop shipping the white man. Right.
Why don't you talk about
what is in the Gita?
And I have all due
respect for that, but think
about what you're saying, it's
not the same territory. We
are speaking on different planes
here. Right. But it it's,
it's, it's gotten to the
point where my bet.. my
channel grew massively over the
last couple of weeks, a
couple months. And I think
the reason why I did
is because people are intellectually
hungry. And to the greatest
extent that the intellectual hunger
is being satisfied is with
a bunch of people that
are pro hindutva. And
for that reason, you know,
the satiation happens through that.
And therefore there is some
sort of a wildfire happening
on that. And then at
a certain point, I was
like, you know what? I
cannot continue having that conversation.
I will saturate myself. I
need to know when I'm

English: 
situation where even if I
can speak from the very
limited experience, I have no
matter what I say on
my philosophy, YouTube channel say
I'm referring to Freud, right?
Fraud has nothing to do
with this entire debate. People
are going to come after
me still
Stop shipping the white man. Right.
Why don't you talk about
what is in the Gita?
And I have all due
respect for that, but think
about what you're saying, it's
not the same territory. We
are speaking on different planes
here. Right. But it it's,
it's, it's gotten to the
point where my bet.. my
channel grew massively over the
last couple of weeks, a
couple months. And I think
the reason why I did
is because people are intellectually
hungry. And to the greatest
extent that the intellectual hunger
is being satisfied is with
a bunch of people that
are pro hindutva. And
for that reason, you know,
the satiation happens through that.
And therefore there is some
sort of a wildfire happening
on that. And then at
a certain point, I was
like, you know what? I
cannot continue having that conversation.
I will saturate myself. I
need to know when I'm

English: 
wrong. And that's, that's how
I started. You know, I
got in contact with you
and all that. So with
this book, because again, as
an outsider, as somebody who's
not, you know, wide into
the system, I hear stuff
about the book is, you
know, they made it into
freedom of speech expression. The
fact that, you know, books,
allowed to be published.
You know, this is one
of the narratives. The many
narratives that exist and journalists
have resigned to it.
You know, intellectuals have resigned
to the fact that every,
every aspect has many narratives.
And so we can pick
whatever narrative we want to
support. Are we sure that
that book was really that
inaccurate when it comes to,
you know,
Mean, I don't like it's
it's for me less a
question of inaccuracy. It's the,
the, that like, and the
book is being published. So
this is not
This is not
Salman Rushdy, this is
not Wendy Doniger and
go like, this is not
a state. You know, when
you speak of freedom of
speech, you speak primarily of
two things. One that the

English: 
wrong. And that's, that's how
I started. You know, I
got in contact with you
and all that. So with
this book, because again, as
an outsider, as somebody who's
not, you know, wide into
the system, I hear stuff
about the book is, you
know, they made it into
freedom of speech expression. The
fact that, you know, books,
allowed to be published.
You know, this is one
of the narratives. The many
narratives that exist and journalists
have resigned to it.
You know, intellectuals have resigned
to the fact that every,
every aspect has many narratives.
And so we can pick
whatever narrative we want to
support. Are we sure that
that book was really that
inaccurate when it comes to,
you know,
Mean, I don't like it's
it's for me less a
question of inaccuracy. It's the,
the, that like, and the
book is being published. So
this is not
This is not
Salman Rushdy, this is
not Wendy Doniger and
go like, this is not
a state. You know, when
you speak of freedom of
speech, you speak primarily of
two things. One that the

English: 
state not silence you and
the other, that violence pro
violent protest, which is protest
that could do bodily harm.
If we'd like to take
that Carl Schmitt
of the state, possessing us
monopoly on the use of
violence, that, that kind of
violence not call you into
silence. Those are primarily the
things we're talking about. We're
not saying that somebody publish
a provocative book, invites somebody
to the launch who's raised
the most vile slogans. Who's
been part of the precipitation
of that, that all of
that occur. And we protecting
freedom of speech, restrict our
own speech.
That's be an absurd proposition,
you know? So, so that,
that question that we don't
have the right to speak
out against someone who's spoken
up, that's obviously complete. I
mean, that's, wouldn't work at
all. But the question, I

English: 
state not silence you and
the other, that violence pro
violent protest, which is protest
that could do bodily harm.
If we'd like to take
that Carl Schmitt
of the state, possessing us
monopoly on the use of
violence, that, that kind of
violence not call you into
silence. Those are primarily the
things we're talking about. We're
not saying that somebody publish
a provocative book, invites somebody
to the launch who's raised
the most vile slogans. Who's
been part of the precipitation
of that, that all of
that occur. And we protecting
freedom of speech, restrict our
own speech.
That's be an absurd proposition,
you know? So, so that,
that question that we don't
have the right to speak
out against someone who's spoken
up, that's obviously complete. I
mean, that's, wouldn't work at
all. But the question, I

English: 
think that, that issue
are ca sting a light, a
casting, a question in glance on
Bloomsbury and the way that
editorial is being handled and
w and the way that
they behave, probably you're right
to do it, probably we
on one side who object
to those, that kind of
direction, Bloomsbury India has
taken.
We also have a right
to question that, but I
think that absolutely, I have
a lot of sympathy for
the authors. I think that
that's a very, like, that's
an awful thing to have
happen. I wouldn't want to
have that happen to me.
So obviously something went wrong
at Bloomsbury and, and I
think people are right to
question that
It is also very suspicious
that, you know, the, the,
the way the entire series
of events went down, it
was very atypical. You know,
first it's getting published. All
these people are being invited,
suddenly there's a furor. And
then suddenly we were really
like, you know what, can't
do this anymore.
And then the book gets
so much publicity, it's a
bestseller, even before it comes
out of the market. And
by bystanders like me, people
like me, I like all
of this happened, but we
just took a nap. Like

English: 
think that, that issue
are ca sting a light, a
casting, a question in glance on
Bloomsbury and the way that
editorial is being handled and
w and the way that
they behave, probably you're right
to do it, probably we
on one side who object
to those, that kind of
direction, Bloomsbury India has
taken.
We also have a right
to question that, but I
think that absolutely, I have
a lot of sympathy for
the authors. I think that
that's a very, like, that's
an awful thing to have
happen. I wouldn't want to
have that happen to me.
So obviously something went wrong
at Bloomsbury and, and I
think people are right to
question that
It is also very suspicious
that, you know, the, the,
the way the entire series
of events went down, it
was very atypical. You know,
first it's getting published. All
these people are being invited,
suddenly there's a furor. And
then suddenly we were really
like, you know what, can't
do this anymore.
And then the book gets
so much publicity, it's a
bestseller, even before it comes
out of the market. And
by bystanders like me, people
like me, I like all
of this happened, but we
just took a nap. Like

English: 
this was like a six
hour duration before all of
this went down and it's,
to me, it's interesting to
me, it's so interesting. And
I think you pick on
this theme in, if not
one more than one of
your books, this, this idea
of a historical romanticism, you
see, I am some sort
of a pragmatist and my
job on the internet apart
from this podcast, which is
where I'm choosing my curiosity
is to offer people some
sort of philosophical guidance.
And when I do that,
I tell them, Hey, listen,
the explanation to you is
not in your past, it's
in your future, no matter
who you are, no matter
what has happened, right? But
as, as a country, as
a society, that is this
very viewed fascination with our
history that I do not
see in America. So that's
a first, it's a very
interesting, you know, Octavio Paz
has that very lovely book
called enlightened India. And he
says, in ref reference to
Mexico, he says, you know,
one of the great differences
that separates a country like

English: 
this was like a six
hour duration before all of
this went down and it's,
to me, it's interesting to
me, it's so interesting. And
I think you pick on
this theme in, if not
one more than one of
your books, this, this idea
of a historical romanticism, you
see, I am some sort
of a pragmatist and my
job on the internet apart
from this podcast, which is
where I'm choosing my curiosity
is to offer people some
sort of philosophical guidance.
And when I do that,
I tell them, Hey, listen,
the explanation to you is
not in your past, it's
in your future, no matter
who you are, no matter
what has happened, right? But
as, as a country, as
a society, that is this
very viewed fascination with our
history that I do not
see in America. So that's
a first, it's a very
interesting, you know, Octavio Paz
has that very lovely book
called enlightened India. And he
says, in ref reference to
Mexico, he says, you know,
one of the great differences
that separates a country like

English: 
India and Mexico from the
United States is that America, in
a sense is the people's
people have individual histories, but
the country itself has no
history.
The country looks to the
future. It looks to modernity.
It is modernity. Whereas in
countries like India and Mexico,
the future kind of depends
on the way, the questions
or the pasta resolved. And
I would take, I would
separate myself from what you
said earlier, which is that
I don't support historical romanticism,
which is to say a
sentimental view of the past,
which is even further to
say a wish to recreate
or bring back the past.
For me, my love of
history is predicated on understanding
that the past is dead
on that Naipaul-ian idea
that that one
draws a line having drawn
that line, having recognized that
that history is, is behind
you. And that, that the
future lies ahead. I feel

English: 
India and Mexico from the
United States is that America, in
a sense is the people's
people have individual histories, but
the country itself has no
history.
The country looks to the
future. It looks to modernity.
It is modernity. Whereas in
countries like India and Mexico,
the future kind of depends
on the way, the questions
or the pasta resolved. And
I would take, I would
separate myself from what you
said earlier, which is that
I don't support historical romanticism,
which is to say a
sentimental view of the past,
which is even further to
say a wish to recreate
or bring back the past.
For me, my love of
history is predicated on understanding
that the past is dead
on that Naipaul-ian idea
that that one
draws a line having drawn
that line, having recognized that
that history is, is behind
you. And that, that the
future lies ahead. I feel

English: 
very strongly that cultures can
be nourished by the past
that, that, that creative relationship
with the past of which
perhaps the Renaissance is like
the finest example, it can
lead to like tremendous sense
of cultural confidence of strength,
of, of ingenuity, of renewal,
of people feeling that they
too have something.
And in India, of course,
we have a tremendous, very
rich intellectual inheritance, which, which
so I completely feel that
like, if people are suddenly
quite jingoistic about those things,
it is because there is
a kind of realization that,
that part of the legacy
of the colonial experience was
that we would cut away
from those things. You know,
we didn't, we didn't receive
them with the
Delight and with the enthusiasm
that one could have and
that they would have been
something that would have been
intellectually very invigorating. So, so,
so it's, it's, it's, it's

English: 
very strongly that cultures can
be nourished by the past
that, that, that creative relationship
with the past of which
perhaps the Renaissance is like
the finest example, it can
lead to like tremendous sense
of cultural confidence of strength,
of, of ingenuity, of renewal,
of people feeling that they
too have something.
And in India, of course,
we have a tremendous, very
rich intellectual inheritance, which, which
so I completely feel that
like, if people are suddenly
quite jingoistic about those things,
it is because there is
a kind of realization that,
that part of the legacy
of the colonial experience was
that we would cut away
from those things. You know,
we didn't, we didn't receive
them with the
Delight and with the enthusiasm
that one could have and
that they would have been
something that would have been
intellectually very invigorating. So, so,
so it's, it's, it's, it's

English: 
the two things together. It's
realizing that the past is
over that it's dead and
that it must be seen
as dead. And at the
same time, absolutely loving the
idea of history. Absolutely loving
the idea of being nourished
by a sense of wonder
about it's because it's an
aspect of curiosity, you know?
Hmm. Right. And so what,
tell me if I made
sense of that accurately. So
it seems like what you're
trying to say is that,
that there is a, there's
a sort of a nourishment
that gets passed on because
by effect of having such
a cultural depth, but because
we had such a long
period of disconnect, that there
is a sort of a
jingoistic overcompensation, am I understanding
you correctly?
It is. But one of
the, one of the sort
of symptoms of that compensation
is that piety, not the
intellect, not intelligence, not inquiry,
not, not the life of

English: 
the two things together. It's
realizing that the past is
over that it's dead and
that it must be seen
as dead. And at the
same time, absolutely loving the
idea of history. Absolutely loving
the idea of being nourished
by a sense of wonder
about it's because it's an
aspect of curiosity, you know?
Hmm. Right. And so what,
tell me if I made
sense of that accurately. So
it seems like what you're
trying to say is that,
that there is a, there's
a sort of a nourishment
that gets passed on because
by effect of having such
a cultural depth, but because
we had such a long
period of disconnect, that there
is a sort of a
jingoistic overcompensation, am I understanding
you correctly?
It is. But one of
the, one of the sort
of symptoms of that compensation
is that piety, not the
intellect, not intelligence, not inquiry,
not, not the life of

English: 
the mind piety is being
made to stand in for
intellectual inquiry. So it's not,
it's not saying, Oh, we
knew this. We knew that
we were so great. And
look at the Gita and
look it like, leave all
that aside, begin with the
proposition that your history is
junk. You have nothing just
pretend for argument's sake that
that's the case.
And then go after it
with this in the spirit
of intellectual inquiry, because there's
all the difference between being
inspired by the past and
being mired in the past.
So you was mentioning the
example of the United States here.
You're right. There is history
here that is miring. This
racial history is extremely miring,
but there is also on
the side of that and
engagement with the past that's
creative and intellectual. There's an
industry of books of television
shows of like endless stimulus
that is to do with
looking at the past and
rethinking the past and feeling
it as part of one's
intellectual inheritance.

English: 
the mind piety is being
made to stand in for
intellectual inquiry. So it's not,
it's not saying, Oh, we
knew this. We knew that
we were so great. And
look at the Gita and
look it like, leave all
that aside, begin with the
proposition that your history is
junk. You have nothing just
pretend for argument's sake that
that's the case.
And then go after it
with this in the spirit
of intellectual inquiry, because there's
all the difference between being
inspired by the past and
being mired in the past.
So you was mentioning the
example of the United States here.
You're right. There is history
here that is miring. This
racial history is extremely miring,
but there is also on
the side of that and
engagement with the past that's
creative and intellectual. There's an
industry of books of television
shows of like endless stimulus
that is to do with
looking at the past and
rethinking the past and feeling
it as part of one's
intellectual inheritance.

English: 
And what I fear is
happening at the moment in
India is too much a
worship of one's past, you
know, and worship doesn't get
you anywhere. It doesn't lead
to creativity. It's it's it's
how many times can you
say, "Bharat Mata ki Jai" you know, what,
what will that produce? So
it's, it's, it's, it's that
other side of like critical
inquiry and a thought. And
I've actually like comparing one's
past to other places of
like, of actually like looking
at one's history and in,
in, in ways that are
intellectually exciting, that, that I
support and I don't support
pie.
What were you not personally,
I'm infatuated with history as
well. Is that not what
you studied? I never studied
history, but I love history.
I love, I love, I
love that relationship between past
and present. I love it,

English: 
And what I fear is
happening at the moment in
India is too much a
worship of one's past, you
know, and worship doesn't get
you anywhere. It doesn't lead
to creativity. It's it's it's
how many times can you
say, "Bharat Mata ki Jai" you know, what,
what will that produce? So
it's, it's, it's, it's that
other side of like critical
inquiry and a thought. And
I've actually like comparing one's
past to other places of
like, of actually like looking
at one's history and in,
in, in ways that are
intellectually exciting, that, that I
support and I don't support
pie.
What were you not personally,
I'm infatuated with history as
well. Is that not what
you studied? I never studied
history, but I love history.
I love, I love, I
love that relationship between past
and present. I love it,

English: 
both in individuals. I love
to see the way people
reckon with their own private
histories, but I also love
the way nations reckon with
history. I love that that
tension between the present and
the past, I think it's
like very interesting and it
has and had, and it
can lead you down the
path of destruction, but it
can also like bring you,
it can also be like
a mirror, a kind of
wellspring.
Yeah, exactly. Right. So it
is interesting to me in
more than one ways, the
fact that, I mean, you,
you spent a considerable amount
of time in Banaras, right?
Yes. And it is one
thing to speak of Banaras
as a group of people,
as a concept for the
city, as an extension of
a historical path of, of
a cultural, you know, artifact
and all that. And then
it is different to speak
of it in terms of
individuals, people who live there,
the psyche that acquires them,

English: 
both in individuals. I love
to see the way people
reckon with their own private
histories, but I also love
the way nations reckon with
history. I love that that
tension between the present and
the past, I think it's
like very interesting and it
has and had, and it
can lead you down the
path of destruction, but it
can also like bring you,
it can also be like
a mirror, a kind of
wellspring.
Yeah, exactly. Right. So it
is interesting to me in
more than one ways, the
fact that, I mean, you,
you spent a considerable amount
of time in Banaras, right?
Yes. And it is one
thing to speak of Banaras
as a group of people,
as a concept for the
city, as an extension of
a historical path of, of
a cultural, you know, artifact
and all that. And then
it is different to speak
of it in terms of
individuals, people who live there,
the psyche that acquires them,

English: 
the, the, the, the mindset
that delivered the, the kind
of conditions that they live
with, what they think of
their past present and future.
And I'm curious, this is
a question I ask people
of different trades in any
case, in a different format,
but here's our last asked
this question to you. What
is it that you learned
from living in Banaras that
is absolutely unobvious to
somebody who's never done that.
It's a good one. Yeah.
It's a nice one. That's
a nice one. I mean,
I have to say, like,
the thing for me was
that, and it much more,
it was almost a sensual
feeling like I arrived with
the sense of New York time.
I felt like I wanted
to go efficiently about my
interviews. I wanted to like
collect my information and write
my book and like, you
know, go about it all,
very methodically. And people kept
smiling at me over there.
And maybe this would be
like, you know, like if

English: 
the, the, the, the mindset
that delivered the, the kind
of conditions that they live
with, what they think of
their past present and future.
And I'm curious, this is
a question I ask people
of different trades in any
case, in a different format,
but here's our last asked
this question to you. What
is it that you learned
from living in Banaras that
is absolutely unobvious to
somebody who's never done that.
It's a good one. Yeah.
It's a nice one. That's
a nice one. I mean,
I have to say, like,
the thing for me was
that, and it much more,
it was almost a sensual
feeling like I arrived with
the sense of New York time.
I felt like I wanted
to go efficiently about my
interviews. I wanted to like
collect my information and write
my book and like, you
know, go about it all,
very methodically. And people kept
smiling at me over there.
And maybe this would be
like, you know, like if

English: 
you don't have the blessings
of God, if you don't
understand the subtle side of
the city, like you're, you're
dealing with material surfaces, but
there is another bananas of
tradition of faith of like
almost a mental image, like
a kind of focusing point
for the spirit for, for
this other lack.
If you don't engage with
that world, which includes a
world of magic, it includes
a world where everybody lives
by the stars. It includes
a world where someone would
take their child to a
witch doctor before they would
go to like a conventional
doctor. If you don't somehow
understand tradition is alive. And
the tradition has its own
logic and its ways of
thinking and of believing you
won't, there's a part of
the city that you've completely
miss.
Like you would have gone
away with a very thin
impression. And, and, and it
was very hard for me

English: 
you don't have the blessings
of God, if you don't
understand the subtle side of
the city, like you're, you're
dealing with material surfaces, but
there is another bananas of
tradition of faith of like
almost a mental image, like
a kind of focusing point
for the spirit for, for
this other lack.
If you don't engage with
that world, which includes a
world of magic, it includes
a world where everybody lives
by the stars. It includes
a world where someone would
take their child to a
witch doctor before they would
go to like a conventional
doctor. If you don't somehow
understand tradition is alive. And
the tradition has its own
logic and its ways of
thinking and of believing you
won't, there's a part of
the city that you've completely
miss.
Like you would have gone
away with a very thin
impression. And, and, and it
was very hard for me

English: 
that, because it meant letting
go of this rational self
that I associate with the
West. And with I also
associated as a way of
like self preservation, you know,
it's like, I don't want
to be, I don't want
to have this other way
of thinking, like I have
no place for this in
my life, but bananas really
brought me very close in
moments to something that was
really part of the ancient
world.
And that was like frightening
and fascinating at the same
time. And I think that
that till you live there
and you start to reckon
with it that you can't
really understand that, that deeper
side of it, and people
say it all the time,
you know, one of this,
one of the really intelligent
sort of sages of Banaras
says, he says, anybody can
see the physical city of
bananas. He said, but the
real Banaras. So the subtle

English: 
that, because it meant letting
go of this rational self
that I associate with the
West. And with I also
associated as a way of
like self preservation, you know,
it's like, I don't want
to be, I don't want
to have this other way
of thinking, like I have
no place for this in
my life, but bananas really
brought me very close in
moments to something that was
really part of the ancient
world.
And that was like frightening
and fascinating at the same
time. And I think that
that till you live there
and you start to reckon
with it that you can't
really understand that, that deeper
side of it, and people
say it all the time,
you know, one of this,
one of the really intelligent
sort of sages of Banaras
says, he says, anybody can
see the physical city of
bananas. He said, but the
real Banaras. So the subtle

English: 
side of Banaras, it's like
the sun behind the clouds.
And if there isn't this
effort of internal visualization of
this other, you, you, you
don't access it. So it
was a, it was a
very self conscious sense of,
of, of, of, of what
this city meant. And I
had to find a way
to enter into that. And
did you Pasha parsley? I
don't think I could have
entered into it fully without
a loss of self Mora,
a loss of, of one
kind of self, but sometimes
you can, you can get
an intimation of something.
And at the same time,
not, not necessarily cross the
line, you know, so interesting.
They can't cross the line
now it's too late for
me, you know, I'm somebody
who's grown up in an
extremely, like an extension of
scientific culture in the West.
I'm part of that way
of thinking civil as yeah.
That way of thinking. Right,
right. And so that again
brings us back to that

English: 
side of Banaras, it's like
the sun behind the clouds.
And if there isn't this
effort of internal visualization of
this other, you, you, you
don't access it. So it
was a, it was a
very self conscious sense of,
of, of, of, of what
this city meant. And I
had to find a way
to enter into that. And
did you Pasha parsley? I
don't think I could have
entered into it fully without
a loss of self Mora,
a loss of, of one
kind of self, but sometimes
you can, you can get
an intimation of something.
And at the same time,
not, not necessarily cross the
line, you know, so interesting.
They can't cross the line
now it's too late for
me, you know, I'm somebody
who's grown up in an
extremely, like an extension of
scientific culture in the West.
I'm part of that way
of thinking civil as yeah.
That way of thinking. Right,
right. And so that again
brings us back to that

English: 
question. That one can't one,
can't walk back the past,
you know, there's a lot
of people hungering for like
ancient India, but, you know,
the ancient world was full
of things that you don't
want and that you can't
really recreate again.
So you have to find
a way to be simultaneously
modern and at the same
time, like engaged with the
past, you know, so it's,
it's it's anyway, but coming
back to what you were
saying. Yeah, right.
No, you're right. I think
that is a society wide,
a society wide conflict that
inhabits every individual's mind, does
this need to make sense of
Modernity? Scientists, science on one
hand and this deep, deep,
deep sense of tradition. Cause
I see that often being
fractured with very urban families
like my own family. Right.
I remember I had, what
was it, Jaundice. And
we were taking modern medications.

English: 
question. That one can't one,
can't walk back the past,
you know, there's a lot
of people hungering for like
ancient India, but, you know,
the ancient world was full
of things that you don't
want and that you can't
really recreate again.
So you have to find
a way to be simultaneously
modern and at the same
time, like engaged with the
past, you know, so it's,
it's it's anyway, but coming
back to what you were
saying. Yeah, right.
No, you're right. I think
that is a society wide,
a society wide conflict that
inhabits every individual's mind, does
this need to make sense of
Modernity? Scientists, science on one
hand and this deep, deep,
deep sense of tradition. Cause
I see that often being
fractured with very urban families
like my own family. Right.
I remember I had, what
was it, Jaundice. And
we were taking modern medications.

English: 
Right. And modern medication was
taking its time.
What my dad's like, you
know, what, take him to
that guy that does that
weird thing with like eggs
and dahi. And so
my mom did, and when
I healed the primary attribution
was the traditional, instead of
the scientific and even the
biological, my body might have
just healed itself. And it
is, it is a very
interesting coexistence. It is a
very interesting coexistence and it
is so interesting. You say
that that is a sort
of a hesitation in, or
like you you'd have lost
the self right. In the
city where the Ganges is
supposed to, you know, wash
your sins away in a
way, which is similar to
the, to the sense of
like, you know, there is,
there is something very interesting.
A friend of mine said
to me the other day,
and I think that is
something that you might be
that probably we you're circling
around when we're talking about
this. And he said, that
is a very clear distinction
between India and Bharat. And
I never thought of it.
Right. Well that comes up
in the, in The Twice-Born

English: 
Right. And modern medication was
taking its time.
What my dad's like, you
know, what, take him to
that guy that does that
weird thing with like eggs
and dahi. And so
my mom did, and when
I healed the primary attribution
was the traditional, instead of
the scientific and even the
biological, my body might have
just healed itself. And it
is, it is a very
interesting coexistence. It is a
very interesting coexistence and it
is so interesting. You say
that that is a sort
of a hesitation in, or
like you you'd have lost
the self right. In the
city where the Ganges is
supposed to, you know, wash
your sins away in a
way, which is similar to
the, to the sense of
like, you know, there is,
there is something very interesting.
A friend of mine said
to me the other day,
and I think that is
something that you might be
that probably we you're circling
around when we're talking about
this. And he said, that
is a very clear distinction
between India and Bharat. And
I never thought of it.
Right. Well that comes up
in the, in The Twice-Born

English: 
a lot. Right? Yeah.
That distinction. Yeah.
And was, that was the
attempt, was the inspiration to
go to Banaras and live
and, you know, spend that
time and, and understand Banaras
was that a search for
Bharat? Is that, is that
what was happening?
Well, it was, it was
exact. So The Twice-Born
"Dvija" in Sanskrit is refers
obviously to the Brahmins of
Banaras who my prison, I
wanted primarily to speak to
them. But the other sense
of The Twice-Born was
this idea of ancient cultures,
reborn as modern nations, Bharat
reborn as India and
the birth pangs of that
second birth of the ancient
country, reckoning with this like
ill fitting difficult, but modern
iteration of a nation like
India.
And so I wasn't so
much looking for Bharat
as I was exploring
the tension
Between India.

English: 
a lot. Right? Yeah.
That distinction. Yeah.
And was, that was the
attempt, was the inspiration to
go to Banaras and live
and, you know, spend that
time and, and understand Banaras
was that a search for
Bharat? Is that, is that
what was happening?
Well, it was, it was
exact. So The Twice-Born
"Dvija" in Sanskrit is refers
obviously to the Brahmins of
Banaras who my prison, I
wanted primarily to speak to
them. But the other sense
of The Twice-Born was
this idea of ancient cultures,
reborn as modern nations, Bharat
reborn as India and
the birth pangs of that
second birth of the ancient
country, reckoning with this like
ill fitting difficult, but modern
iteration of a nation like
India.
And so I wasn't so
much looking for Bharat
as I was exploring
the tension
Between India.

English: 
It's two concepts. Yeah. Right,
right, right. And, and the
truth is that true? The
truth is that there's, you
know, the last line of
that book, he says
Tripathi says, he says, one
thing I know is the
death is real. And of
course, like in the city
of death, what I was
reckoning with was the idea
that Bharat must die.
You know, that Bharat in
a sense, as much as
we love it, as much
as we're inspired by it,
it won't live on, you
know, even the people who
yearn for it are already belonged
to India, you know?
So, so, so the, this
there's a moment in fact
where like it was, so
I went thinking here I
am westernized in not out
of touch with my culture
out of touch with my
place. If I find myself

English: 
It's two concepts. Yeah. Right,
right, right. And, and the
truth is that true? The
truth is that there's, you
know, the last line of
that book, he says
Tripathi says, he says, one
thing I know is the
death is real. And of
course, like in the city
of death, what I was
reckoning with was the idea
that Bharat must die.
You know, that Bharat in
a sense, as much as
we love it, as much
as we're inspired by it,
it won't live on, you
know, even the people who
yearn for it are already belonged
to India, you know?
So, so, so the, this
there's a moment in fact
where like it was, so
I went thinking here I
am westernized in not out
of touch with my culture
out of touch with my
place. If I find myself

English: 
among Brahmin communities, who've come
in very ancient ways to
to Banaras
to learn Sanskrit, to be
part of traditional culture. Then
I'll find people who are
rooted, who in a sense
are not living with a
conflicted reality.
And it was a great
surprise to me that very
young Brahmin kids is what,
as all the people I spoke
to, they had all experienced
without ever leaving. Sometimes Banaras
they had all experienced this
incursion from modernity they'd
all been remade in a
sense by this interaction with
modernity. And I remember
like, look finally towards the
end, looking for somebody who
is actually tradition bound. And
Commissioner Tripathi had sent me
to this guy who was
a teacher at the Samved
school and a man called
Shastri.
And he said he really
lives as people used to
live a thousand years ago.
And I went to see
him, and I remember, I
couldn't even translate this word,

English: 
among Brahmin communities, who've come
in very ancient ways to
to Banaras
to learn Sanskrit, to be
part of traditional culture. Then
I'll find people who are
rooted, who in a sense
are not living with a
conflicted reality.
And it was a great
surprise to me that very
young Brahmin kids is what,
as all the people I spoke
to, they had all experienced
without ever leaving. Sometimes Banaras
they had all experienced this
incursion from modernity they'd
all been remade in a
sense by this interaction with
modernity. And I remember
like, look finally towards the
end, looking for somebody who
is actually tradition bound. And
Commissioner Tripathi had sent me
to this guy who was
a teacher at the Samved
school and a man called
Shastri.
And he said he really
lives as people used to
live a thousand years ago.
And I went to see
him, and I remember, I
couldn't even translate this word,

English: 
modernity for him because
he didn't know what that
meant. And so finally we
came to Kalyuga as a
synonym from modernity. And I
said, you know, what is
the value of teaching the
Veda in the age of
Kalyug? And he says, you
know, when there's
a flood, he said that
the farmer will take the
seed and he'll put it
in a pot up in
the tree.
And when the flood subsides
that can be farming again.
And he said, this is
what we do. And this
is all that can be
done. And so there was
an actual ancient voice in
some ways who I had
to translate my concerns for.
And he was responding to
those concerns, but the great
majority were already in a
sense what all their longing
with all that pain for
the death of Bharat, they
had already been remade without

English: 
modernity for him because
he didn't know what that
meant. And so finally we
came to Kalyuga as a
synonym from modernity. And I
said, you know, what is
the value of teaching the
Veda in the age of
Kalyug? And he says, you
know, when there's
a flood, he said that
the farmer will take the
seed and he'll put it
in a pot up in
the tree.
And when the flood subsides
that can be farming again.
And he said, this is
what we do. And this
is all that can be
done. And so there was
an actual ancient voice in
some ways who I had
to translate my concerns for.
And he was responding to
those concerns, but the great
majority were already in a
sense what all their longing
with all that pain for
the death of Bharat, they
had already been remade without

English: 
sometimes even leaving Banaras, they'd
become part of this empire
of modernity.
And so, so we shouldn't
ever fool ourselves about the
fact that, you know, that's
when nostalgia leads you astray
and you think, Oh, we
can be, as people were
before, it's a lie. It
will never, it can never
happen. No, you're right. I
think you're very right. I
think Bharat has to go
through a, sort of a
metaphorical death where, you know,
it's sort of like the
Phoenix burning for it to
reemerge from the ashes kind
of a situation. Exactly.
And I'm sympathetic with. It's
also interesting
That Bharat in India, first
of all, I mean, will
have political implications. Like we
can, we can draw coordinates
that refer to Bharat and
India and the political sphere,
but then there's a sociological
sphere. And I think you
hit it bang on with
that story, but it's a
conflict between modernity 
and agrarian society, civilization
history. Like it's, it's, it's
sort of like this. I

English: 
sometimes even leaving Banaras, they'd
become part of this empire
of modernity.
And so, so we shouldn't
ever fool ourselves about the
fact that, you know, that's
when nostalgia leads you astray
and you think, Oh, we
can be, as people were
before, it's a lie. It
will never, it can never
happen. No, you're right. I
think you're very right. I
think Bharat has to go
through a, sort of a
metaphorical death where, you know,
it's sort of like the
Phoenix burning for it to
reemerge from the ashes kind
of a situation. Exactly.
And I'm sympathetic with. It's
also interesting
That Bharat in India, first
of all, I mean, will
have political implications. Like we
can, we can draw coordinates
that refer to Bharat and
India and the political sphere,
but then there's a sociological
sphere. And I think you
hit it bang on with
that story, but it's a
conflict between modernity 
and agrarian society, civilization
history. Like it's, it's, it's
sort of like this. I

English: 
often wonder if like it's
such a cocktail, it's such
a cocktail where a very
agrarian mindset meets just the
ills of cheap capitalistic modernity,
and that cocktail produces some
of the weirdest side effects.
And, and, and maybe, maybe
the people that you were
meeting, I don't know if
you would say they were
halfway between Bharat and
India or they had occupied,
some part of India and
some part of Bharat. Right.
But it's, it's, it's sort
of like that when you
see a baba holding a phone,
doing his Facebook, you know,
it's, it's kind of like
very, yeah.
I met with very, very
aware
That that technology, that, that
phone, you know, they, it
was, it was a Trojan
horse of assault like that.
It didn't just, it was
not just a tool, but
that tool contained ideas and
ways of being and like
would, would lead them into
a world of conflict. So,
you know, when he was
talking of this man in

English: 
often wonder if like it's
such a cocktail, it's such
a cocktail where a very
agrarian mindset meets just the
ills of cheap capitalistic modernity,
and that cocktail produces some
of the weirdest side effects.
And, and, and maybe, maybe
the people that you were
meeting, I don't know if
you would say they were
halfway between Bharat and
India or they had occupied,
some part of India and
some part of Bharat. Right.
But it's, it's, it's sort
of like that when you
see a baba holding a phone,
doing his Facebook, you know,
it's, it's kind of like
very, yeah.
I met with very, very
aware
That that technology, that, that
phone, you know, they, it
was, it was a Trojan
horse of assault like that.
It didn't just, it was
not just a tool, but
that tool contained ideas and
ways of being and like
would, would lead them into
a world of conflict. So,
you know, when he was
talking of this man in

English: 
my book about "Trishanku Ki Avastha", you know, being
in the state of Trishanku,
what does that mean?
Trishanku was the King, who was
hung in the limbo between
Vishwa Mitra and, and who
am I thinking of the
other sage?
You know, the one second
come to me, it'll come
to me in a second,
we'll have this great battle.
And the Vishwamitra is the
Kshatriya Sage. And the other
is, is, is a Brahmin
Sage. And they have an
intellectual battle. And in the
course of this battle, the
King Trishanku becomes suspended
in midair, he he's in
limbo. Right. And that was
this man's like image for
saying that state of being
neither here, nor there like
tradition hasn't been renounced, but
this modernity has not come
in.
Its fullness. It's the Vyaas,
by the way, I think
it's . I was going
to get that. But anyway,

English: 
my book about "Trishanku Ki Avastha", you know, being
in the state of Trishanku,
what does that mean?
Trishanku was the King, who was
hung in the limbo between
Vishwa Mitra and, and who
am I thinking of the
other sage?
You know, the one second
come to me, it'll come
to me in a second,
we'll have this great battle.
And the Vishwamitra is the
Kshatriya Sage. And the other
is, is, is a Brahmin
Sage. And they have an
intellectual battle. And in the
course of this battle, the
King Trishanku becomes suspended
in midair, he he's in
limbo. Right. And that was
this man's like image for
saying that state of being
neither here, nor there like
tradition hasn't been renounced, but
this modernity has not come
in.
Its fullness. It's the Vyaas,
by the way, I think
it's . I was going
to get that. But anyway,

English: 
so, so just coming back
to this, the other thing
that had, that had been
very destructive was that, which
was not the ambition of
modernity earlier, was that it
had become synonymous with Western
culture. And a lot of
people like in the older
generation of let's say that
post world war history of
the kibbutz of Tel aviv of
Nehru, there
was this idea that
modernity would be
culturally neutral.
And that after the very
specific onslaught culture, that colonization
was that here was a
way for us all to
partake in something that would
free us from cultural specificity.
But that would also be,
we would be able to
partake in the richness of
modernity without associating that modernity
as simply being Western culture
again. And in that respect,

English: 
so, so just coming back
to this, the other thing
that had, that had been
very destructive was that, which
was not the ambition of
modernity earlier, was that it
had become synonymous with Western
culture. And a lot of
people like in the older
generation of let's say that
post world war history of
the kibbutz of Tel aviv of
Nehru, there
was this idea that
modernity would be
culturally neutral.
And that after the very
specific onslaught culture, that colonization
was that here was a
way for us all to
partake in something that would
free us from cultural specificity.
But that would also be,
we would be able to
partake in the richness of
modernity without associating that modernity
as simply being Western culture
again. And in that respect,

English: 
we've completely failed people who
experienced modernity now experience it
with that sense of a
front, because they associated with
a tremendous sense of loss
for themselves and, and with
being in indoctrinated in a
foreign culture.
So that, that, that more
profound, more neutral spirit of
modernity that was not necessarily
tied to one culture to
the influence of one culture
that hasn't had the success
one would have hoped to.
Right. And so, so it
engender is tremendous feelings of
loss. I never realized it
up until I got on youtube
primarily possibly cause my
social circles were insulated, but
since I did get on
YouTube and I've probably never
confessed it either, but I've
become more lost at home
than I've ever been.
It's sort of me realizing
how, how much of a,
how different, and I don't
mean that in a, in

English: 
we've completely failed people who
experienced modernity now experience it
with that sense of a
front, because they associated with
a tremendous sense of loss
for themselves and, and with
being in indoctrinated in a
foreign culture.
So that, that, that more
profound, more neutral spirit of
modernity that was not necessarily
tied to one culture to
the influence of one culture
that hasn't had the success
one would have hoped to.
Right. And so, so it
engender is tremendous feelings of
loss. I never realized it
up until I got on youtube
primarily possibly cause my
social circles were insulated, but
since I did get on
YouTube and I've probably never
confessed it either, but I've
become more lost at home
than I've ever been.
It's sort of me realizing
how, how much of a,
how different, and I don't
mean that in a, in

English: 
a, in a qualitative is
better versus none of that,
but how different I am
from my immediate physical surroundings,
the surroundings are not get
to explore. Cause I was
riding behind a car behind
the car with the NAC
and all other jazz. And
so it's interesting that in
one sense, somebody like me
is lost, right? Where modernity
has infused my traditional traditional
values created this weird alchemy
that I do not know
how to make a sense
of.
But I think to Iceland
talks about is it's probably
that, or if I'm not
mistaken, it talks about the
different kind of being lost,
right? Like there is a,
there's a sense of being
lost that that book refers
to, and I'm interested in
picking that up. How is
it that you felt lost?
What is, what is, what
is a Aatish's lost look
like? You know, I understood
that sense of loss in
a, in a very, very
narrow way, which was that
here I was setting out,
let's say in 2000 or
2005 to be a writer
in India.

English: 
a, in a qualitative is
better versus none of that,
but how different I am
from my immediate physical surroundings,
the surroundings are not get
to explore. Cause I was
riding behind a car behind
the car with the NAC
and all other jazz. And
so it's interesting that in
one sense, somebody like me
is lost, right? Where modernity
has infused my traditional traditional
values created this weird alchemy
that I do not know
how to make a sense
of.
But I think to Iceland
talks about is it's probably
that, or if I'm not
mistaken, it talks about the
different kind of being lost,
right? Like there is a,
there's a sense of being
lost that that book refers
to, and I'm interested in
picking that up. How is
it that you felt lost?
What is, what is, what
is a Aatish's lost look
like? You know, I understood
that sense of loss in
a, in a very, very
narrow way, which was that
here I was setting out,
let's say in 2000 or
2005 to be a writer
in India.

English: 
And I felt that I
lived in a place where
writing had occurred for 20
centuries, but I knew nothing
that different barriers have a
kind of impermeable rock separated
me from the different layers
of living history in India.
And then what I had
felt very thin, it felt
like I had to always
live guessing at
What new invention would come
out of Europe and America
that I would in some
way respond to and come
running after. And that I
didn't have a creative relationship
with my place. You know,
I felt a sense of
fraudulence and that, that was
like the primary objective of
my mid twenties leading into
the thirties. And now I'm

English: 
And I felt that I
lived in a place where
writing had occurred for 20
centuries, but I knew nothing
that different barriers have a
kind of impermeable rock separated
me from the different layers
of living history in India.
And then what I had
felt very thin, it felt
like I had to always
live guessing at
What new invention would come
out of Europe and America
that I would in some
way respond to and come
running after. And that I
didn't have a creative relationship
with my place. You know,
I felt a sense of
fraudulence and that, that was
like the primary objective of
my mid twenties leading into
the thirties. And now I'm

English: 
almost 40, was this sense
of, of overcoming that, that
limitation of, of somehow being
able to break down some
of those barriers and to
engage with things that had
been closed to me with,
with, and I think that
that the way things were
and The Twice-Born or
the product of that creative
engagement, but I was also
dealing with the fact that,
that I didn't want to
make a return journey.
I didn't want to like,
you know, I didn't want
to be different. I didn't
want to forsake the person
I had become in that
contact both in India with
the West and then actually
in the West, like I
was going to be that
person, but I was also
not going to be re
I was not going to
be limited by being that
person. So do you understand

English: 
almost 40, was this sense
of, of overcoming that, that
limitation of, of somehow being
able to break down some
of those barriers and to
engage with things that had
been closed to me with,
with, and I think that
that the way things were
and The Twice-Born or
the product of that creative
engagement, but I was also
dealing with the fact that,
that I didn't want to
make a return journey.
I didn't want to like,
you know, I didn't want
to be different. I didn't
want to forsake the person
I had become in that
contact both in India with
the West and then actually
in the West, like I
was going to be that
person, but I was also
not going to be re
I was not going to
be limited by being that
person. So do you understand

English: 
what I'm doing? What I'm
saying? It was,
Yeah, I kind of do.
Maybe, maybe I feel maybe,
and I'm not sure because
I need to understand what,
or at least I need
to ask you politely what
those barriers were, because maybe
I feel inklings of a
similar lawlessness maybe, but what
were those barriers? What do
you mean?
Is it linguistic barriers? Primarily
barriers, lack language was a
huge, huge feature. Of course.
I mean, my grandfather was
an Urdu poet like that
being a huge modern movement
of Hindi and Urdu writing,
which I was my Hindi and Urdu
at that time was not
good enough to read. So
there was a very clear
linguistic barrier far ahead of
that or deeper into the
past was this super exciting
world of Sanskrit literature, which
I love language.
And I love the complexity
of language. I love grammar.
And here was this, this
sister of the great, like
Western languages of Greek and
Latin and which had 10

English: 
what I'm doing? What I'm
saying? It was,
Yeah, I kind of do.
Maybe, maybe I feel maybe,
and I'm not sure because
I need to understand what,
or at least I need
to ask you politely what
those barriers were, because maybe
I feel inklings of a
similar lawlessness maybe, but what
were those barriers? What do
you mean?
Is it linguistic barriers? Primarily
barriers, lack language was a
huge, huge feature. Of course.
I mean, my grandfather was
an Urdu poet like that
being a huge modern movement
of Hindi and Urdu writing,
which I was my Hindi and Urdu
at that time was not
good enough to read. So
there was a very clear
linguistic barrier far ahead of
that or deeper into the
past was this super exciting
world of Sanskrit literature, which
I love language.
And I love the complexity
of language. I love grammar.
And here was this, this
sister of the great, like
Western languages of Greek and
Latin and which had 10

English: 
centuries of like literary production
and writing and all of
those things, which would have
been like, I was curious,
intelligent kid. I would have
loved those things, but they
were never made available to
me. Like my mom, there
was a kind of invisible
force steering me in different
directions.
And so out of in
college, I wanted to learn
French. And if you see
my notebooks from that time,
there's this like rather pathetic
need to like learn the
trappings of Western culture to
sound very familiar, to sound
very fluent. And then there
comes a moment where you
think, who are you doing
this for? Like, is this
real growth? Is this real
intellectual engagement or do you
just want to pass? And
I have to say like
for a long time, that
was, that was, I felt
the failure of that.
I felt that I was,
that I was putting on
an act. I thought writing
was to get good. If

English: 
centuries of like literary production
and writing and all of
those things, which would have
been like, I was curious,
intelligent kid. I would have
loved those things, but they
were never made available to
me. Like my mom, there
was a kind of invisible
force steering me in different
directions.
And so out of in
college, I wanted to learn
French. And if you see
my notebooks from that time,
there's this like rather pathetic
need to like learn the
trappings of Western culture to
sound very familiar, to sound
very fluent. And then there
comes a moment where you
think, who are you doing
this for? Like, is this
real growth? Is this real
intellectual engagement or do you
just want to pass? And
I have to say like
for a long time, that
was, that was, I felt
the failure of that.
I felt that I was,
that I was putting on
an act. I thought writing
was to get good. If

English: 
I was to be produced
something meaningful, I would need
for like a much more
vigorous, like intellectual connection with
this place that I've grown
up in where my both
sides of my family come
from and I would need,
I would need to somehow
like have some kind of
personal reckoning with the
way the kind of weird
place I'd been left that
as someone born in 1980,
you know, so it was,
it was that, that was,
that was the first, that
was the festival.
But then obviously there were
huge other things like, you
know, it's changing now, but
the world I grew up
in, if you said you
were learning Sanskrit, like my
mother's friend would be like,
Oh, why are you bothering
with all that chanting chanting?
You know, or it would
be like, it was, it
was a culture of contempt.
Like it was Robert Byron
who writes so wonderfully about
the way that the sensibilities
of the British were blunted

English: 
I was to be produced
something meaningful, I would need
for like a much more
vigorous, like intellectual connection with
this place that I've grown
up in where my both
sides of my family come
from and I would need,
I would need to somehow
like have some kind of
personal reckoning with the
way the kind of weird
place I'd been left that
as someone born in 1980,
you know, so it was,
it was that, that was,
that was the first, that
was the festival.
But then obviously there were
huge other things like, you
know, it's changing now, but
the world I grew up
in, if you said you
were learning Sanskrit, like my
mother's friend would be like,
Oh, why are you bothering
with all that chanting chanting?
You know, or it would
be like, it was, it
was a culture of contempt.
Like it was Robert Byron
who writes so wonderfully about
the way that the sensibilities
of the British were blunted

English: 
in India and that they
will put out of sympathy
within India.
Oh, well, something very similar
was happening with us. Like
we were not designed to
look at people past a
certain social or educational side
and to see the humanity
to understand that they would
be full of all kinds
of very rich, like cultural
inheritances of stimuli or tradition
of like, like that, that
was a kind of, and
I sometimes think of it
as the legacy of cast,
but it was, it was
a very dehumanizing experience.
The way that I grew
up in India, I felt
that a tiny portion of
people were available to me
and fully human and complex,
and that my reading of
this much bigger world around
me, very thin, very arid.
I was unable to see
in the ways that I

English: 
in India and that they
will put out of sympathy
within India.
Oh, well, something very similar
was happening with us. Like
we were not designed to
look at people past a
certain social or educational side
and to see the humanity
to understand that they would
be full of all kinds
of very rich, like cultural
inheritances of stimuli or tradition
of like, like that, that
was a kind of, and
I sometimes think of it
as the legacy of cast,
but it was, it was
a very dehumanizing experience.
The way that I grew
up in India, I felt
that a tiny portion of
people were available to me
and fully human and complex,
and that my reading of
this much bigger world around
me, very thin, very arid.
I was unable to see
in the ways that I

English: 
would have liked to see
that that would, that took
some effort to overcome that,
Right. It is. It is
so interesting. You say, you
know, the fact that there
were only a few people
who were complex enough because
they were near enough, everybody
else sort of existed existed
behind this veil of
abstraction, where they became concepts
of some nature. And I
don't know, I'm not intellectually
aware enough to pinpoint at
whether there is a legacy
of cost that, that causes
this, but that is definitely
existence of class. That is
a very clear divide that,
well, I mean, I go
to America, I do all
my chores myself.
I figured it out, you
know, all that happens. I
come back to India and
then I have to contest
with that. The reality that
there is somebody from a
different class that is supposed
to be employed that is
supposed to do all that
stuff for you. And, you
know, there is cognitive dissonance
and it is not even
like, I mean, it doesn't
even look like they're socially
ready for that kind of
reckoning. We don't look like

English: 
would have liked to see
that that would, that took
some effort to overcome that,
Right. It is. It is
so interesting. You say, you
know, the fact that there
were only a few people
who were complex enough because
they were near enough, everybody
else sort of existed existed
behind this veil of
abstraction, where they became concepts
of some nature. And I
don't know, I'm not intellectually
aware enough to pinpoint at
whether there is a legacy
of cost that, that causes
this, but that is definitely
existence of class. That is
a very clear divide that,
well, I mean, I go
to America, I do all
my chores myself.
I figured it out, you
know, all that happens. I
come back to India and
then I have to contest
with that. The reality that
there is somebody from a
different class that is supposed
to be employed that is
supposed to do all that
stuff for you. And, you
know, there is cognitive dissonance
and it is not even
like, I mean, it doesn't
even look like they're socially
ready for that kind of
reckoning. We don't look like

English: 
a civilization. That's going to
wake up on itself and
be like, listen, man, we
are also talking about these
people, like the same stuff.
I think you used the
word [inaudible]
Yeah. And it's such a
wonderful feeling. And, you know,
I remember like really loving
the fact that I cook
quite well now that I
do all of those things
and not being in situations
where I was dehumanizing people.
There's somebody who works as
a super in my building,
but that person is then
also like having a beer
down the road from me.
And like, I don't treat
him. I don't think of
him as, in some ways
like indentured to me, I
think of him as somebody
who's, you know, a completely
autonomous human being, doing a
job.
And that, that level of
like, I hated that about
my life in India. I
don't know if I could
have had a different life,
you know, I feel like
maybe, you know, but it
was, it was very hard

English: 
a civilization. That's going to
wake up on itself and
be like, listen, man, we
are also talking about these
people, like the same stuff.
I think you used the
word [inaudible]
Yeah. And it's such a
wonderful feeling. And, you know,
I remember like really loving
the fact that I cook
quite well now that I
do all of those things
and not being in situations
where I was dehumanizing people.
There's somebody who works as
a super in my building,
but that person is then
also like having a beer
down the road from me.
And like, I don't treat
him. I don't think of
him as, in some ways
like indentured to me, I
think of him as somebody
who's, you know, a completely
autonomous human being, doing a
job.
And that, that level of
like, I hated that about
my life in India. I
don't know if I could
have had a different life,
you know, I feel like
maybe, you know, but it
was, it was very hard

English: 
for me because I had
family in India and they
had already, they had already
a way of engaging with
the place and, you know,
it was not to somehow
some extent you inherit those
things, you know? Right.
Yeah. Even if I were
to revolt against that, because
I have a problem with
masks in general and I
go down to my family
and like, listen, we can't
do this no more.
Right. You don't mean like
COVID masks. You mean
I am a Trump suppoter, you have no
idea. No. I mean, it's,
it's things don't exist in
isolation. Like my revolt cannot
exist in isolation. If nobody
is ready to understand the
economics is not ready to
pick. There's so many factors
that go into sort of
something like that. Right. And
we were pretty far behind
in terms of understanding that.
And I think part of
it is the part of
it is the legacy of
colonization.
The fact that, you know,
there is some sort of

English: 
for me because I had
family in India and they
had already, they had already
a way of engaging with
the place and, you know,
it was not to somehow
some extent you inherit those
things, you know? Right.
Yeah. Even if I were
to revolt against that, because
I have a problem with
masks in general and I
go down to my family
and like, listen, we can't
do this no more.
Right. You don't mean like
COVID masks. You mean
I am a Trump suppoter, you have no
idea. No. I mean, it's,
it's things don't exist in
isolation. Like my revolt cannot
exist in isolation. If nobody
is ready to understand the
economics is not ready to
pick. There's so many factors
that go into sort of
something like that. Right. And
we were pretty far behind
in terms of understanding that.
And I think part of
it is the part of
it is the legacy of
colonization.
The fact that, you know,
there is some sort of

English: 
a societal trauma where we
have existed as that class
and then the ones that
who managed to escape. It
automatically occupy the colonizer mindset.
That might be a guest
man may be very wrong
about that too. I'm curious
to know what you think
about this. It's almost unerasable
form of classism that I
don't know what to make
sense of. What do you
think?
I mean, it's, it's firstly,
to your point, it's absolutely
right. It's very important not
to deal with something so
serious in trivial or cosmetic
ways. You know, I had
a friend once who'd come
very privileged girl, and she
would take auto rickshaws
in Delhi, even though it
was very clear that like
she lived in a palatial
apartment and she could well
afford like five cars with
air. And, but it was
like, don't let that little
thing make you feel good
about yourself because it's actually,
it sort of, it shouldn't,
you shouldn't look away because
you f*****g took an auto
show.
You know, that's not a,
like, like a serious wreck.

English: 
a societal trauma where we
have existed as that class
and then the ones that
who managed to escape. It
automatically occupy the colonizer mindset.
That might be a guest
man may be very wrong
about that too. I'm curious
to know what you think
about this. It's almost unerasable
form of classism that I
don't know what to make
sense of. What do you
think?
I mean, it's, it's firstly,
to your point, it's absolutely
right. It's very important not
to deal with something so
serious in trivial or cosmetic
ways. You know, I had
a friend once who'd come
very privileged girl, and she
would take auto rickshaws
in Delhi, even though it
was very clear that like
she lived in a palatial
apartment and she could well
afford like five cars with
air. And, but it was
like, don't let that little
thing make you feel good
about yourself because it's actually,
it sort of, it shouldn't,
you shouldn't look away because
you f*****g took an auto
show.
You know, that's not a,
like, like a serious wreck.

English: 
And so I actually agree.
You can't have this revolt
in, in private as to
your other question, are you
asking why it's so intractable?
Are you asking why it
runs so deep this sentence
in your, in your listen,
it's not just that you
lived in those parts of
the country. It's also that
you've studied the history. It's
also that you studied the
linguistic history. Yeah, right? That is,
yeah. There is a certain
understanding I'm sure that you
have of the phenomenon.
And so I'm curious, what
does it say? What does
the history say about a
present situation? Be this context?
See, I think sometimes, and
this is going to sound
very politically incorrect when somebody
is dealing with their own
system of differentiation, let's say
class in England or cast
in India that can be
inequality and differentiation. And at
the same time, like there's,
if not mobility, there's still

English: 
And so I actually agree.
You can't have this revolt
in, in private as to
your other question, are you
asking why it's so intractable?
Are you asking why it
runs so deep this sentence
in your, in your listen,
it's not just that you
lived in those parts of
the country. It's also that
you've studied the history. It's
also that you studied the
linguistic history. Yeah, right? That is,
yeah. There is a certain
understanding I'm sure that you
have of the phenomenon.
And so I'm curious, what
does it say? What does
the history say about a
present situation? Be this context?
See, I think sometimes, and
this is going to sound
very politically incorrect when somebody
is dealing with their own
system of differentiation, let's say
class in England or cast
in India that can be
inequality and differentiation. And at
the same time, like there's,
if not mobility, there's still

English: 
more humanity in a system
like that.
Like people, what can
happen as these systems progress?
And especially as new systems
of inequality are heaped on
to old systems of inequality,
is that, is that the,
that rank becomes calcified.
It becomes ossified in certain
ways. And people are not
able necessarily to reach, you
know, somebody living in a
correspond society knows the basis
of why he may think
of himself as superior or
somebody else's inferior and he
can change those things.
Gandhi could change those things.
He could, he knew that
system, that language, he effect
a movement of change within
that language. When you have
something like class, which we
have to some extent inherited
from the Europeans, which is

English: 
more humanity in a system
like that.
Like people, what can
happen as these systems progress?
And especially as new systems
of inequality are heaped on
to old systems of inequality,
is that, is that the,
that rank becomes calcified.
It becomes ossified in certain
ways. And people are not
able necessarily to reach, you
know, somebody living in a
correspond society knows the basis
of why he may think
of himself as superior or
somebody else's inferior and he
can change those things.
Gandhi could change those things.
He could, he knew that
system, that language, he effect
a movement of change within
that language. When you have
something like class, which we
have to some extent inherited
from the Europeans, which is

English: 
shot true with aspects of
cast, kind of sitting like
a solid block of concrete
over this other structure, it
becomes harder for people to
identify what it is that
they're responding to.
Sometimes they respond, you know,
Naipaul would say that the
difference is what most, like,
they were almost like racial
differences, you know, between people
of privilege or people of
education and people of poor
backgrounds and all these things.
And it becomes like you're
responding to something very deep
and animal, but you're not
responding in an in ways
where you can actually identify
that thing. And you're not
like it. And so it
creates a stasis. That's much
harder to shake up.
Having said that, I believe
that it's, it is being
shaken up. You know, like,
like however much, there are
things that I don't like
about what's happening right now
in India. It is a
tremendous time of flux. And

English: 
shot true with aspects of
cast, kind of sitting like
a solid block of concrete
over this other structure, it
becomes harder for people to
identify what it is that
they're responding to.
Sometimes they respond, you know,
Naipaul would say that the
difference is what most, like,
they were almost like racial
differences, you know, between people
of privilege or people of
education and people of poor
backgrounds and all these things.
And it becomes like you're
responding to something very deep
and animal, but you're not
responding in an in ways
where you can actually identify
that thing. And you're not
like it. And so it
creates a stasis. That's much
harder to shake up.
Having said that, I believe
that it's, it is being
shaken up. You know, like,
like however much, there are
things that I don't like
about what's happening right now
in India. It is a
tremendous time of flux. And

English: 
one hope like what flux
is, you know, it's, it
has, it has good possibilities
and you can also, you
can also commit suicide and
it's, it's all of those
things are happening side by
side. But so I think
that the shakeup is occurring
and it sort of remains
to be seen the direction
it takes.
Mm Hmm. Cause God knows.
I mean, I remember
growing up with, we used
to have this common, I
don't even know saying that
we'd rationalize things away by
"India me to aise hi chalta hai.."
, which was sort of
a signifier because it's, it's,
it's automatically interesting to me
when there is a common
phrase in language that elicits
that that is expressed to,
you know, for the same
effect. Like there is so
many ways of saying that
the reason why everybody was
saying that there is something
unique about that.
And the fact of the
matter is there was sort
of this institutional lays that
people felt that people felt
like the institutions weren't responding.
And now most definitely there

English: 
one hope like what flux
is, you know, it's, it
has, it has good possibilities
and you can also, you
can also commit suicide and
it's, it's all of those
things are happening side by
side. But so I think
that the shakeup is occurring
and it sort of remains
to be seen the direction
it takes.
Mm Hmm. Cause God knows.
I mean, I remember
growing up with, we used
to have this common, I
don't even know saying that
we'd rationalize things away by
"India me to aise hi chalta hai.."
, which was sort of
a signifier because it's, it's,
it's automatically interesting to me
when there is a common
phrase in language that elicits
that that is expressed to,
you know, for the same
effect. Like there is so
many ways of saying that
the reason why everybody was
saying that there is something
unique about that.
And the fact of the
matter is there was sort
of this institutional lays that
people felt that people felt
like the institutions weren't responding.
And now most definitely there

English: 
is, if not an overreaction,
there is some sort of
an action. You see the
change happening in both a
positive and a negative direction,
Feel a sense of ownership
over the institutions or that
government and things like that.
Yeah.
Yeah. Right. And my, I
get concerned only when I
begin to think, because some
part of this new Bharat
slash India that we are
yearning to create has civilizational
traits, right. This continuation of a
civilization. We want to do
indic civilizational. Some of it,
because this, the civilization's not
homogenous. It's so heterogeneous it's,
it's just such, it's such
an alchemy that to solidify
the point of rendezvous as
to where we meet that
civilization aspect, sort of transmutes
into an ideological aspect.
And that worries me, that
worries me a lot, politically
that I do not want
somebody else telling me what
my Hinduism is going to
look like. That is some,
you know what I mean?
I'm, I'm also interested in

English: 
is, if not an overreaction,
there is some sort of
an action. You see the
change happening in both a
positive and a negative direction,
Feel a sense of ownership
over the institutions or that
government and things like that.
Yeah.
Yeah. Right. And my, I
get concerned only when I
begin to think, because some
part of this new Bharat
slash India that we are
yearning to create has civilizational
traits, right. This continuation of a
civilization. We want to do
indic civilizational. Some of it,
because this, the civilization's not
homogenous. It's so heterogeneous it's,
it's just such, it's such
an alchemy that to solidify
the point of rendezvous as
to where we meet that
civilization aspect, sort of transmutes
into an ideological aspect.
And that worries me, that
worries me a lot, politically
that I do not want
somebody else telling me what
my Hinduism is going to
look like. That is some,
you know what I mean?
I'm, I'm also interested in

English: 
the fact that, you know,
you, you, you studied, you
sat down with sanskrit
long enough and you get
trashed on enough by people
for being all sorts of
thing when they've really not
invested that time at all.
Right? Like what do you
think?
So to describe the mechanism,
the thing that you're, I
think that where we're talking
and there's again, like I
refer you to this wonderful
book by Octavio Paz. And
he was such a like,
again, somebody who put in
a lot of time and
he was coming, not from
the position of the colonist
or the white man, he
was Mexican in fairly recent
memory who really bothered to
try to think about India,
especially in light of his
own country. And he talks
about this process where he
says, you know, the conversion
of culture into religion always
ends with the conversion of
religion into politics.
And I think something like
that is playing out right

English: 
the fact that, you know,
you, you, you studied, you
sat down with sanskrit
long enough and you get
trashed on enough by people
for being all sorts of
thing when they've really not
invested that time at all.
Right? Like what do you
think?
So to describe the mechanism,
the thing that you're, I
think that where we're talking
and there's again, like I
refer you to this wonderful
book by Octavio Paz. And
he was such a like,
again, somebody who put in
a lot of time and
he was coming, not from
the position of the colonist
or the white man, he
was Mexican in fairly recent
memory who really bothered to
try to think about India,
especially in light of his
own country. And he talks
about this process where he
says, you know, the conversion
of culture into religion always
ends with the conversion of
religion into politics.
And I think something like
that is playing out right

English: 
now in India. And it's,
it's, it is dangerous in
many ways, because with every,
with every one of those
transitions, a certain kind of
richness or complexity, you know,
the Hindu culture that we
inherited is, as you said,
full of subtlety, full of
heterodox practices, full of things.
Like there's no, there isn't,
it can't be reduced to
like slogans and to, to,
to sort of a certain
political ideology, but it's also
very difficult.
It's a very difficult culture
to, to apprehend, to deal
with it's it's, it's, it's
not, and this other thing
is much easier. It's a
much easier way to swallow
where you think you're getting
your past, but actually you're
getting a reduced version, the
skim milk of your past
an adulterated version, right? Yeah. You're
getting, you're getting you're, it's
been, been remade in certain
ways. And you think like,

English: 
now in India. And it's,
it's, it is dangerous in
many ways, because with every,
with every one of those
transitions, a certain kind of
richness or complexity, you know,
the Hindu culture that we
inherited is, as you said,
full of subtlety, full of
heterodox practices, full of things.
Like there's no, there isn't,
it can't be reduced to
like slogans and to, to,
to sort of a certain
political ideology, but it's also
very difficult.
It's a very difficult culture
to, to apprehend, to deal
with it's it's, it's, it's
not, and this other thing
is much easier. It's a
much easier way to swallow
where you think you're getting
your past, but actually you're
getting a reduced version, the
skim milk of your past
an adulterated version, right? Yeah. You're
getting, you're getting you're, it's
been, been remade in certain
ways. And you think like,

English: 
you're, you're actually engaging with,
you're not getting it with
all its depth.
Then what was interesting in
Banaras was that they're really
good Brahmins. They could see this.
They were like, when the
Congress was in power, they're
like, it was fine. They
did their little English saab
thing, and that was fine
for them. And we had
our culture and tradition and
they said, these guys, they
want what we have and
when they're done with it,
it's not going to be
recognizable anymore. You know, because
it's, it's, it's really like,
I mean, even to read,
you know, the end of
something like the
Kumārasambhava whatever in it's
sexuality in it's like, it's,
it's a deep 20 centuries
of 15 centuries later, it
feels shocking, you know, which
is very like, that's, that's
the kind of culture that
one is engaging with.
And so if you're this
really kind of, sort of,

English: 
you're, you're actually engaging with,
you're not getting it with
all its depth.
Then what was interesting in
Banaras was that they're really
good Brahmins. They could see this.
They were like, when the
Congress was in power, they're
like, it was fine. They
did their little English saab
thing, and that was fine
for them. And we had
our culture and tradition and
they said, these guys, they
want what we have and
when they're done with it,
it's not going to be
recognizable anymore. You know, because
it's, it's, it's really like,
I mean, even to read,
you know, the end of
something like the
Kumārasambhava whatever in it's
sexuality in it's like, it's,
it's a deep 20 centuries
of 15 centuries later, it
feels shocking, you know, which
is very like, that's, that's
the kind of culture that
one is engaging with.
And so if you're this
really kind of, sort of,

English: 
if you're kind of in
this very reductionist, you know,
trying to turn it into
some tame version of Christianity
and Islam with a kind
of Ram as your Prophet
and the Gita is your
Quran. And, you know, you're
like, like you're not, you're,
you're going to have to
lose a lot to make
such a complex fit into
such a little frame. Right.
Right. And that's, that's the,
that's the fear.
Like I don't, frankly, I
never not that that should
matter. But a lot of
my concern doesn't come from,
like, I don't want poor
Muslims to be targeted. And
to me, I find that
all of that horrible, but
like the animating concern for
me is like my fear
for Hindu culture and tradition,
which I've spent so many
years like engaged with and
which I'm in many ways
I consider mine and I
don't want it to become
something simple and crude

English: 
if you're kind of in
this very reductionist, you know,
trying to turn it into
some tame version of Christianity
and Islam with a kind
of Ram as your Prophet
and the Gita is your
Quran. And, you know, you're
like, like you're not, you're,
you're going to have to
lose a lot to make
such a complex fit into
such a little frame. Right.
Right. And that's, that's the,
that's the fear.
Like I don't, frankly, I
never not that that should
matter. But a lot of
my concern doesn't come from,
like, I don't want poor
Muslims to be targeted. And
to me, I find that
all of that horrible, but
like the animating concern for
me is like my fear
for Hindu culture and tradition,
which I've spent so many
years like engaged with and
which I'm in many ways
I consider mine and I
don't want it to become
something simple and crude

English: 
Seen as an outsider when
you were so invested in
Hindu culture, was that everything
growing up,
You don't know. I mean,
India was so, so strangely
welcoming. Like my grandparents were
not, they were fairly, they
were not traditional, but there
was, they were sort of
very grounded religious Sikh, family,
fairly conservative. And you would
imagine this huge shock of
like, your daughter has like
an affair with a Pakistani
and there's a child out
of wedlock. And a lot
of people could have made
that situation, including in the
United States could have made that
very uncomfortable.
It could have made me
feel a sense of exclusion.
And it really wasn't like
that it was the opposite.
I was showered in a
feeling of love and a
sense of acceptance. And, and
it basically like, I mean,
when people say now like,
Oh, you're an Islamist or

English: 
Seen as an outsider when
you were so invested in
Hindu culture, was that everything
growing up,
You don't know. I mean,
India was so, so strangely
welcoming. Like my grandparents were
not, they were fairly, they
were not traditional, but there
was, they were sort of
very grounded religious Sikh, family,
fairly conservative. And you would
imagine this huge shock of
like, your daughter has like
an affair with a Pakistani
and there's a child out
of wedlock. And a lot
of people could have made
that situation, including in the
United States could have made that
very uncomfortable.
It could have made me
feel a sense of exclusion.
And it really wasn't like
that it was the opposite.
I was showered in a
feeling of love and a
sense of acceptance. And, and
it basically like, I mean,
when people say now like,
Oh, you're an Islamist or

English: 
a Pakistani or whatever. Like
I find it just mind
boggling. Cause it's, it's, it's
it's and people will say
things like, there'll be like,
you know, Oh, well you
have no right to comment
because now you have, you
have a foreign passport, which
I've always had.
And I think like, that's,
it's so insane to say
that you talk, you can
go talking to somebody who's
been 30 years out of
40 years in that country.
Like you wouldn't say to Raghu Karnad
or Madhav Khosla.
obviously like identifying like some
part of me, which you
think like, by my birth
or my blood, then I'm
like, and actually some of
the more vicious people actually
say that they say, it's
your blood, my responsible, I
can't fix that. You know,
there's nothing I can do.
Right. But it's, it's it's
so there's, there is like
this, you know, there's an
extent to which one can
be one's own person, but
like you're also who you
are, is also in part
decided by what people make
of you, you know? And
as far as like the

English: 
a Pakistani or whatever. Like
I find it just mind
boggling. Cause it's, it's, it's
it's and people will say
things like, there'll be like,
you know, Oh, well you
have no right to comment
because now you have, you
have a foreign passport, which
I've always had.
And I think like, that's,
it's so insane to say
that you talk, you can
go talking to somebody who's
been 30 years out of
40 years in that country.
Like you wouldn't say to Raghu Karnad
or Madhav Khosla.
obviously like identifying like some
part of me, which you
think like, by my birth
or my blood, then I'm
like, and actually some of
the more vicious people actually
say that they say, it's
your blood, my responsible, I
can't fix that. You know,
there's nothing I can do.
Right. But it's, it's it's
so there's, there is like
this, you know, there's an
extent to which one can
be one's own person, but
like you're also who you
are, is also in part
decided by what people make
of you, you know? And
as far as like the

English: 
situation goes in India, it's
just, it's, it's so unequivocal
that it's been decided that
I'm something I'm not, but
I really don't have a
say in the matter,
Do you sometimes often check,
check inside and be like,
am I really, am I
really this what people are
calling me, does that, does
that happen? You know, what's
interesting to me is within
this block of five or
six years, an entirely new
vocabulary was created, put into
effect and it got successful
as far as the political
domain was. Right. And that
that's sort of in a
demand supply model. It, it
sort of speaks to the
hunger that the unrepresented, whoever
the underrepresented were six, seven,
10 years ago, they had
for something like this.
Right. And I don't know,
I don't know how, how
fair it is to you
or to this conversation to
bring it up. I don't
know how you feel about
it, but you can bring
up anything you like. Cool.
I mean, I was reading,
I was reading the, the,
the, the, how do you
say the infamous article, the

English: 
situation goes in India, it's
just, it's, it's so unequivocal
that it's been decided that
I'm something I'm not, but
I really don't have a
say in the matter,
Do you sometimes often check,
check inside and be like,
am I really, am I
really this what people are
calling me, does that, does
that happen? You know, what's
interesting to me is within
this block of five or
six years, an entirely new
vocabulary was created, put into
effect and it got successful
as far as the political
domain was. Right. And that
that's sort of in a
demand supply model. It, it
sort of speaks to the
hunger that the unrepresented, whoever
the underrepresented were six, seven,
10 years ago, they had
for something like this.
Right. And I don't know,
I don't know how, how
fair it is to you
or to this conversation to
bring it up. I don't
know how you feel about
it, but you can bring
up anything you like. Cool.
I mean, I was reading,
I was reading the, the,
the, the, how do you
say the infamous article, the

English: 
"Divider-in-Chief article". And
it did not like I
was like any, any person
who read it cannot really
make the case that this
is written by, you know,
like it's, it's, it's a,
it's a critique. It's, it's
a fair critique.
I can ha I can
totally imagine somebody's sensible, rational,
absolutely fine. Having that point
of view. What do you
think happened like that, that
was such a clear idea.
It was pure. I think
it was purely visual. Like,
I think it was like,
I think they saw this
cover, which associated with prestige,
which by the way, does
not have that prestige here.
The more like people like
the new Yorker, the economist
in India, they're like,
"Koi faltu magazine hoga". With time,
they somehow like attribute it
a prestige to it, which
doesn't, it doesn't have any
more. And they saw this
image of this person who
at a very volatile time
who they just, they wanted
to see honored.
And when it was like
this negative image with this

English: 
"Divider-in-Chief article". And
it did not like I
was like any, any person
who read it cannot really
make the case that this
is written by, you know,
like it's, it's, it's a,
it's a critique. It's, it's
a fair critique.
I can ha I can
totally imagine somebody's sensible, rational,
absolutely fine. Having that point
of view. What do you
think happened like that, that
was such a clear idea.
It was pure. I think
it was purely visual. Like,
I think it was like,
I think they saw this
cover, which associated with prestige,
which by the way, does
not have that prestige here.
The more like people like
the new Yorker, the economist
in India, they're like,
"Koi faltu magazine hoga". With time,
they somehow like attribute it
a prestige to it, which
doesn't, it doesn't have any
more. And they saw this
image of this person who
at a very volatile time
who they just, they wanted
to see honored.
And when it was like
this negative image with this

English: 
negative headline, like it was
completely like visceral. And obviously
it was egged along by,
by the, you know, the
Sambit Patras and that kind
of group who would like,
you know, leading, leading the
charge. But the reaction to
me was completely, they were
not reacting to words. They
were reacting to an image,
right. I'm going to just
berzerk over it.
Have you, have you made
peace with whatever happens since
that? Are you like happy
in, in New York now? Is
that, is that how it
is? I've made peace in
some, sometimes I even think
that
I'm almost grateful for some,
for some reasons, because, you
know, I was very, I
was pretty much caught between
cultures at that point. And
what this did for me
was that it made me
realize that probably India given
my background was not a
place where I was very
welcomed. And if, if it
hadn't come to that, I
may have like, lived with
illusions for much longer. And,

English: 
negative headline, like it was
completely like visceral. And obviously
it was egged along by,
by the, you know, the
Sambit Patras and that kind
of group who would like,
you know, leading, leading the
charge. But the reaction to
me was completely, they were
not reacting to words. They
were reacting to an image,
right. I'm going to just
berzerk over it.
Have you, have you made
peace with whatever happens since
that? Are you like happy
in, in New York now? Is
that, is that how it
is? I've made peace in
some, sometimes I even think
that
I'm almost grateful for some,
for some reasons, because, you
know, I was very, I
was pretty much caught between
cultures at that point. And
what this did for me
was that it made me
realize that probably India given
my background was not a
place where I was very
welcomed. And if, if it
hadn't come to that, I
may have like, lived with
illusions for much longer. And,

English: 
and, and as it was
like, and it's not that
it's not painful, it is
painful, but it was,
It was
Better than to, it's better
to have that clear sightedness
and to kind of make
a goal of another life
at a time when one
still can. You know, if,
if, if that had happened
to me, when I was
at say 60, what would
I have done? You know,
like I couldn't have started
again. I couldn't have really
gone anywhere, but it's, it's
sort of like if there
was a finality to it,
and then it was followed
so much by like the
fact that I actually physically
couldn't give him, come back
to India. And so together,
it was like, I was
like, you know, this thing
is happening.
It's happening in a way
that concerns many more people
than just yourself. And you're
lucky that you've something has
happened. That's kind of woken
you up to it before
it was too late.
Hmm. So am I correct
in understanding, tell me if
this is, if this sounds
accurate, it's sort of like

English: 
and, and as it was
like, and it's not that
it's not painful, it is
painful, but it was,
It was
Better than to, it's better
to have that clear sightedness
and to kind of make
a goal of another life
at a time when one
still can. You know, if,
if, if that had happened
to me, when I was
at say 60, what would
I have done? You know,
like I couldn't have started
again. I couldn't have really
gone anywhere, but it's, it's
sort of like if there
was a finality to it,
and then it was followed
so much by like the
fact that I actually physically
couldn't give him, come back
to India. And so together,
it was like, I was
like, you know, this thing
is happening.
It's happening in a way
that concerns many more people
than just yourself. And you're
lucky that you've something has
happened. That's kind of woken
you up to it before
it was too late.
Hmm. So am I correct
in understanding, tell me if
this is, if this sounds
accurate, it's sort of like

English: 
the sentiment of being lost
that you would earlier mentioned
was settled by somebody else
to move, which was right.
And it's very difficult for
me, you know, because I'm
not a religious person and
I'm certainly not,
I'm Muslim. I didn't grow
up in a, and that's
not to use that word
in a negative way. Like
I have my sister or
my, I have family that
like from Muslim backgrounds, which,
which are, but I didn't
grow up in a Muslim
family and I can't become
a Muslim because somebody else
tells me it's not, it's
not something that I can
do. And actually like if
there's ever been worship in
my life, it's almost completely
focused, not even around Sikhism,
but around Hindu gods.
I'd been a Shiv Bhakt
for basically most of my
life. And, and so, so
those, so like when you
find yourself in that situation,
you then definitely want to
get away. Because here I
can have a very deep

English: 
the sentiment of being lost
that you would earlier mentioned
was settled by somebody else
to move, which was right.
And it's very difficult for
me, you know, because I'm
not a religious person and
I'm certainly not,
I'm Muslim. I didn't grow
up in a, and that's
not to use that word
in a negative way. Like
I have my sister or
my, I have family that
like from Muslim backgrounds, which,
which are, but I didn't
grow up in a Muslim
family and I can't become
a Muslim because somebody else
tells me it's not, it's
not something that I can
do. And actually like if
there's ever been worship in
my life, it's almost completely
focused, not even around Sikhism,
but around Hindu gods.
I'd been a Shiv Bhakt
for basically most of my
life. And, and so, so
those, so like when you
find yourself in that situation,
you then definitely want to
get away. Because here I
can have a very deep

English: 
engagement with Indian culture and,
and all of these things
that I love about India
can completely be mine, but
I don't have to like
live in a place where
I'm defending an identity.
That's not even yours. I
don't feel. Mm. Mm. You
know, so it's, it's, it's
like, it's, it's really, yeah.
It's too murky that to
be in that situation. And
I don't want to spend
my, like, who wants to
spend the rest of that
life? Like you don't like
it, the partition, they used
to tell this joke where
this, this, this family was
like, Hindu family will wandering
around and there were mobs
roaming the street. And they
said, you know, . And
they were like, because there
was so much part of
Urdu culture they're they
were like, basically like walking
into the trap, but it's
like, it's one of those
situations where you just, you
don't want to deny something,
but at the same time,

English: 
engagement with Indian culture and,
and all of these things
that I love about India
can completely be mine, but
I don't have to like
live in a place where
I'm defending an identity.
That's not even yours. I
don't feel. Mm. Mm. You
know, so it's, it's, it's
like, it's, it's really, yeah.
It's too murky that to
be in that situation. And
I don't want to spend
my, like, who wants to
spend the rest of that
life? Like you don't like
it, the partition, they used
to tell this joke where
this, this, this family was
like, Hindu family will wandering
around and there were mobs
roaming the street. And they
said, you know, . And
they were like, because there
was so much part of
Urdu culture they're they
were like, basically like walking
into the trap, but it's
like, it's one of those
situations where you just, you
don't want to deny something,
but at the same time,

English: 
you can't be that thing.
And the pressure is tremendous
and you don't spend your
life. Hmm. You know, yellow
people down. Right,
Right. Right. I mean, it's,
it's sort of like, like
you were forced into a,
in a sense, right.
And you probably don't want
any part of it because
probably everything that is causing
that controversy is not accurate.
So that is sort of
a separation that insulation that
you got from the whole
situation, in that sense. But
I have a personal question
and feel free to, again,
you know, be like, I
don't want to answer that,
but how does it feel
to be for just no
accurate reason we disliked by
so many people? How was
that? Well, I mean, I
don't to tell you the
truth, like, like, I mean,
it it's, it's not a
crowd that I like, I
actually, they don't remember, but
I used to get the
same thing from the Pakistani
trolls once upon a time,
and those guys were really
danger.

English: 
you can't be that thing.
And the pressure is tremendous
and you don't spend your
life. Hmm. You know, yellow
people down. Right,
Right. Right. I mean, it's,
it's sort of like, like
you were forced into a,
in a sense, right.
And you probably don't want
any part of it because
probably everything that is causing
that controversy is not accurate.
So that is sort of
a separation that insulation that
you got from the whole
situation, in that sense. But
I have a personal question
and feel free to, again,
you know, be like, I
don't want to answer that,
but how does it feel
to be for just no
accurate reason we disliked by
so many people? How was
that? Well, I mean, I
don't to tell you the
truth, like, like, I mean,
it it's, it's not a
crowd that I like, I
actually, they don't remember, but
I used to get the
same thing from the Pakistani
trolls once upon a time,
and those guys were really
danger.

English: 
They could come and kill
you. You know? So it
was exactly, as I said
to my sister, the other
day, I said, you know,
like if you posted this,
would you get trolled? She
said, I wouldn't get told,
I wouldn't run a hate
campaign against it. They'd kill
me. So like, it's it's,
it was so I've kind
of experienced that. And I
don't like, so when I
experience it like a symmetrical
or a mirror image of
it, like, it doesn't mean
anything to me, those are
not people who I think
are capable of real thought
or complexity.
Like they're very, or at
least in that incarnations in
social media and stuff, they're
very too limited to affect
me. You know? It's, it's,
it's, it's not so, so
yeah. I don't, I don't,
it doesn't touch me a
little water off a Duck's
back. Yeah. It's a lot
of heard behavior on social
media. Like I once got,
Oh my God, that was
so one time while I
was in New York, I wake
up this morning and I'm
suddenly viral on twitter for
no good reason. I'm not

English: 
They could come and kill
you. You know? So it
was exactly, as I said
to my sister, the other
day, I said, you know,
like if you posted this,
would you get trolled? She
said, I wouldn't get told,
I wouldn't run a hate
campaign against it. They'd kill
me. So like, it's it's,
it was so I've kind
of experienced that. And I
don't like, so when I
experience it like a symmetrical
or a mirror image of
it, like, it doesn't mean
anything to me, those are
not people who I think
are capable of real thought
or complexity.
Like they're very, or at
least in that incarnations in
social media and stuff, they're
very too limited to affect
me. You know? It's, it's,
it's, it's not so, so
yeah. I don't, I don't,
it doesn't touch me a
little water off a Duck's
back. Yeah. It's a lot
of heard behavior on social
media. Like I once got,
Oh my God, that was
so one time while I
was in New York, I wake
up this morning and I'm
suddenly viral on twitter for
no good reason. I'm not

English: 
popular enough or important enough
to be viral of any
nature, but this is what
had happened on, right.
So on my, on my,
on my Hindi philosophy, you
do, I will, I put
up a cover from Jimmy
Hendrix album. I'm forgetting the
name where, you know, he's
his face and it's this
10 faces of Vishnu or
some s**t like that as
a Hindu God behind. And
I edited my face onto
Hendrix's face to announce season
two or some marketing gig
like that. And I'd just
be like, okay, you know
what? Some people are going
to be disliking it, but
that's fine. That's on them.
I'm not trying to trample
over nobody's cultural religion. I'm
very respectful of that. This
is an album art and I
love Jimmy Hendrix. Right, right.
I go to sleep. I
wake up, I share a
birthday with Jimmy Hendrix, by
the way, I would say
that again. I share a
birthday with Jimmy. Oh,
nice. But say I wake
up and there is some
right wing page on Twitter.
That's popularized that image as
comedians, making fun of Hindu
gods again, and everybody from
PM office to Aditya Thakrey,
any, any minister, any police
officer, somewhere is tagged under me.
And I was like, thank

English: 
popular enough or important enough
to be viral of any
nature, but this is what
had happened on, right.
So on my, on my,
on my Hindi philosophy, you
do, I will, I put
up a cover from Jimmy
Hendrix album. I'm forgetting the
name where, you know, he's
his face and it's this
10 faces of Vishnu or
some s**t like that as
a Hindu God behind. And
I edited my face onto
Hendrix's face to announce season
two or some marketing gig
like that. And I'd just
be like, okay, you know
what? Some people are going
to be disliking it, but
that's fine. That's on them.
I'm not trying to trample
over nobody's cultural religion. I'm
very respectful of that. This
is an album art and I
love Jimmy Hendrix. Right, right.
I go to sleep. I
wake up, I share a
birthday with Jimmy Hendrix, by
the way, I would say
that again. I share a
birthday with Jimmy. Oh,
nice. But say I wake
up and there is some
right wing page on Twitter.
That's popularized that image as
comedians, making fun of Hindu
gods again, and everybody from
PM office to Aditya Thakrey,
any, any minister, any police
officer, somewhere is tagged under me.
And I was like, thank

English: 
God. I'm in New York. Thank
the Lord I'm in here.
Right. And it's a strange
place to be because you're
like, who are these people?
And why do they have
so much time for me?
I'm not that important please.
Right. Saying, yeah, go on.
No, I was just like,
this is just very amusing
to me that, that, that,
that sort of herd behavior
carries itself that way. Yeah.
No. So, so exactly that,
I forgot to mention it.
The darkest side of it
obviously is that it's now
much more targeted against my
mother. She obviously does have
to live there and wants
to live there. And also
like, you know, they can't,
like, there is a difference
of values.
Like they are astonished that
she would have had like
a love affair with a
Pakistani that she would have
had a child that like,
she maybe grew up in
a place where none of
those things mattered in, in,
in any serious way. Like,
it was absolutely fine to
do that. And even things
like, you know, like illegitimacy,

English: 
God. I'm in New York. Thank
the Lord I'm in here.
Right. And it's a strange
place to be because you're
like, who are these people?
And why do they have
so much time for me?
I'm not that important please.
Right. Saying, yeah, go on.
No, I was just like,
this is just very amusing
to me that, that, that,
that sort of herd behavior
carries itself that way. Yeah.
No. So, so exactly that,
I forgot to mention it.
The darkest side of it
obviously is that it's now
much more targeted against my
mother. She obviously does have
to live there and wants
to live there. And also
like, you know, they can't,
like, there is a difference
of values.
Like they are astonished that
she would have had like
a love affair with a
Pakistani that she would have
had a child that like,
she maybe grew up in
a place where none of
those things mattered in, in,
in any serious way. Like,
it was absolutely fine to
do that. And even things
like, you know, like illegitimacy,

English: 
like it's a big thing
for them. They're like, Oh
my God, you're like a
Boston illegitimate. Like I have
half a dozen friends who
have like children sometimes after
they get mad, before they
get married, sometimes they, they,
they hold off the wedding
just so they can have
kids.
And then they get married
later. So actually there is
a conflict of values here,
you know, like we do
not share the same worldview.
And so, so part of
it is like, like kind
of joking, like, Oh, whatever,
you know, you're public enemy.
Number one. Part of it
is the coming into being
of a certain moral system.
And of course, like I
would have to add to
this that I'm also like
gay and married to a
man. And like, all of
it adds up to the
fact that like, you're like,
you know, you can't really
live here.
Like you have to find
somewhere where you can live
and where you don't have
to like fight these battles
that don't need to be
fought. You know? And so

English: 
like it's a big thing
for them. They're like, Oh
my God, you're like a
Boston illegitimate. Like I have
half a dozen friends who
have like children sometimes after
they get mad, before they
get married, sometimes they, they,
they hold off the wedding
just so they can have
kids.
And then they get married
later. So actually there is
a conflict of values here,
you know, like we do
not share the same worldview.
And so, so part of
it is like, like kind
of joking, like, Oh, whatever,
you know, you're public enemy.
Number one. Part of it
is the coming into being
of a certain moral system.
And of course, like I
would have to add to
this that I'm also like
gay and married to a
man. And like, all of
it adds up to the
fact that like, you're like,
you know, you can't really
live here.
Like you have to find
somewhere where you can live
and where you don't have
to like fight these battles
that don't need to be
fought. You know? And so

English: 
there is, there is, there's
a deeper cultural side to
it where you waiting for
now that you're voting, who
are you going to vote
for in the upcoming?
If I bet
Considering that, considering that I've
been like atoning for having
supported Modi in 2014, whether
I like it or not,
whether there are policies of
his, I agree with I'm
a hundred percent voting for
the other side of this.
It's one of the first
time I'm voting, by the
way. No, you're going to
be voting in America. Right.
I'm going to be voting
in America.
So you're going to be
voting Biden. You can't say
that. You couldn't say that.
No. I mean, that's all
it is.
It's requested.
Let me have, let me
have the, they call it
the secret for their sacrifice.
Yeah, no, no, no. I
know. I give it to
you. It's it's I mean,
I was so invested in
American politics to what I
was there and it's, it's
such a, it's such a
circus of its own nature.
Like I don't think it
means realize the complexity of
it. Cause when I come

English: 
there is, there is, there's
a deeper cultural side to
it where you waiting for
now that you're voting, who
are you going to vote
for in the upcoming?
If I bet
Considering that, considering that I've
been like atoning for having
supported Modi in 2014, whether
I like it or not,
whether there are policies of
his, I agree with I'm
a hundred percent voting for
the other side of this.
It's one of the first
time I'm voting, by the
way. No, you're going to
be voting in America. Right.
I'm going to be voting
in America.
So you're going to be
voting Biden. You can't say
that. You couldn't say that.
No. I mean, that's all
it is.
It's requested.
Let me have, let me
have the, they call it
the secret for their sacrifice.
Yeah, no, no, no. I
know. I give it to
you. It's it's I mean,
I was so invested in
American politics to what I
was there and it's, it's
such a, it's such a
circus of its own nature.
Like I don't think it
means realize the complexity of
it. Cause when I come

English: 
back, they asked me very
simplistic questions and I understand
cause I was asking those
questions not too long ago,
myself, but Oh my God.
Oh my God. That, it's
just, it's so amusing to
me. How that, that, that,
that plays out.
What are, what are your,
what are your plans when,
when, when do we expect
the next book? What are
you working on? Are you
working on something? Yeah, I'm
working on, on, on fiction
at the moment on a,
on an awful. And I
don't know. I mean, it's
been through this whole COVID
period. So like, I hope
I'm not like too foggy
headed to know whether it's
good or bad or whatever,
but like, I'm going to
keep working on that and
that'll be the next thing.
And, and I'm, and I'm
doing a lot of journalism.
I've just, I've just become
a contributing writer for the
times for the, the style
section of the New York times,
which includes travel and lots
of like interesting projects.
So I'll be doing a
lot more long form writing

English: 
back, they asked me very
simplistic questions and I understand
cause I was asking those
questions not too long ago,
myself, but Oh my God.
Oh my God. That, it's
just, it's so amusing to
me. How that, that, that,
that plays out.
What are, what are your,
what are your plans when,
when, when do we expect
the next book? What are
you working on? Are you
working on something? Yeah, I'm
working on, on, on fiction
at the moment on a,
on an awful. And I
don't know. I mean, it's
been through this whole COVID
period. So like, I hope
I'm not like too foggy
headed to know whether it's
good or bad or whatever,
but like, I'm going to
keep working on that and
that'll be the next thing.
And, and I'm, and I'm
doing a lot of journalism.
I've just, I've just become
a contributing writer for the
times for the, the style
section of the New York times,
which includes travel and lots
of like interesting projects.
So I'll be doing a
lot more long form writing

English: 
and yeah. And that's kind
of, and it's also like
sends me to places other
than India. So I can
kind of like, let that
part of things cool down
for a decade, decade, two
decades. Right. Are you looking
forward to going, like, what
is the kind of places
that you like to go
When you're traveling?
I'm going for an assignment
as much as one can
say that one is, but
I'm going to Turkey for
quite an interesting assignment, which
is like using what was
basically the beginning of stranger
to history. And in some
ways like revisiting that, but
revisiting a younger self as
well, and like, like writing
in that idea of like
using travel as a way
to like go back to
somebody who you were 10
or 15 years ago, you
know?
And that's, so that's one
place that I'm interested. I'm

English: 
and yeah. And that's kind
of, and it's also like
sends me to places other
than India. So I can
kind of like, let that
part of things cool down
for a decade, decade, two
decades. Right. Are you looking
forward to going, like, what
is the kind of places
that you like to go
When you're traveling?
I'm going for an assignment
as much as one can
say that one is, but
I'm going to Turkey for
quite an interesting assignment, which
is like using what was
basically the beginning of stranger
to history. And in some
ways like revisiting that, but
revisiting a younger self as
well, and like, like writing
in that idea of like
using travel as a way
to like go back to
somebody who you were 10
or 15 years ago, you
know?
And that's, so that's one
place that I'm interested. I'm

English: 
very, very keen to travel
to South America, especially, I
mean, to central America, to
Mexico, I would, you know,
like as, as, as you
said with America here, I
mean there, there are these
letters of like stuff that
are very similar to India
of historical, like difficulties of
race of, of old religion,
reborn and modern religion or
Christianity.
And so I'm, I am,
I'm learning Spanish and I
would love to, in some
ways come around some years
later to like repay the
favor that Octavia posited by
coming to India, by writing
in some meaningful way, because
I feel it's the real
privilege of being Indian is
which I wish that we
could realize people like to
go very much realize that,
which is that you are
an Asian culture with a
very natural one arm sticking
out all the way to
Japan because of Hindu Buddhist

English: 
very, very keen to travel
to South America, especially, I
mean, to central America, to
Mexico, I would, you know,
like as, as, as you
said with America here, I
mean there, there are these
letters of like stuff that
are very similar to India
of historical, like difficulties of
race of, of old religion,
reborn and modern religion or
Christianity.
And so I'm, I am,
I'm learning Spanish and I
would love to, in some
ways come around some years
later to like repay the
favor that Octavia posited by
coming to India, by writing
in some meaningful way, because
I feel it's the real
privilege of being Indian is
which I wish that we
could realize people like to
go very much realize that,
which is that you are
an Asian culture with a
very natural one arm sticking
out all the way to
Japan because of Hindu Buddhist

English: 
culture.
And because the spread is
Sanskrit the culture, but you
also do have this other
history, which you could allows
you to reach as far
as Turkey and Morocco, you've
had
The British. So you're naturally
connected in certain ways to
Europe. Like the whole world
is yours. You don't need
to get rid of any
of it. You know, the,
the Indian has the possibility
to be like the most
cosmopolitan man on the planet
or woman on the planet
because we know all these
things and we need to
find ways. I feel like
because our history is so
interesting and so complex to,
to be observers elsewhere, to
write in like, you know,
because it, it, I think
that it's a very distinctive
way of looking.
I think part of the
privilege also of being Indian
is the automatic sense of
safety and difference. And I
think it's, I never felt
strange being around Jewish people
or, you know, Christians, or
like anybody, you may, you

English: 
culture.
And because the spread is
Sanskrit the culture, but you
also do have this other
history, which you could allows
you to reach as far
as Turkey and Morocco, you've
had
The British. So you're naturally
connected in certain ways to
Europe. Like the whole world
is yours. You don't need
to get rid of any
of it. You know, the,
the Indian has the possibility
to be like the most
cosmopolitan man on the planet
or woman on the planet
because we know all these
things and we need to
find ways. I feel like
because our history is so
interesting and so complex to,
to be observers elsewhere, to
write in like, you know,
because it, it, I think
that it's a very distinctive
way of looking.
I think part of the
privilege also of being Indian
is the automatic sense of
safety and difference. And I
think it's, I never felt
strange being around Jewish people
or, you know, Christians, or
like anybody, you may, you

English: 
may use whatever identity marker
for that. It was just
never strange because I've seen
the same cultural festival being
done in eight different ways
since I was a kid
with eight different things. And
it's all fine. The whole
"Chalta hai" idea is a
very libertarian idea.
And if you extend the
cosmopolitan domain, you're like, you
know what? That's a pretty
damn good privilege. And yeah,
that's my that's, that's part
of the fear that I
share, I think is that
that's going to get reduced.
You know, when you said
about how this is one,
God, please. No, go on.
I was saying, when you
were talking about, I think
you were mentioning a certain
book about, or certain manuscript
about sex sexuality or something
like that. And the transgressions
were built into the mainstream,
like the transgressions of part
of the main note of
literature.
I don't know if you
remember, but Abhijeet made that
point in a video on
his, on his Twitter when
he was up on our
temple and he's like this,

English: 
may use whatever identity marker
for that. It was just
never strange because I've seen
the same cultural festival being
done in eight different ways
since I was a kid
with eight different things. And
it's all fine. The whole
"Chalta hai" idea is a
very libertarian idea.
And if you extend the
cosmopolitan domain, you're like, you
know what? That's a pretty
damn good privilege. And yeah,
that's my that's, that's part
of the fear that I
share, I think is that
that's going to get reduced.
You know, when you said
about how this is one,
God, please. No, go on.
I was saying, when you
were talking about, I think
you were mentioning a certain
book about, or certain manuscript
about sex sexuality or something
like that. And the transgressions
were built into the mainstream,
like the transgressions of part
of the main note of
literature.
I don't know if you
remember, but Abhijeet made that
point in a video on
his, on his Twitter when
he was up on our
temple and he's like this,

English: 
he made that very harmful
and he got in trouble
for them. I know, but,
so that's very important like
that, that like that feeling
of, of being so complex
and of being so sensitive
that like, nobody can say
anything and you just want
to stand there, like clutching
your culture because you're so
afraid that something's gonna hurt
it.
Or someone's like, that is
not the spirit of like
Indian cosmopolitanism. That was not
the spirit of Gandhi or
Nehru to go. What's adopted.
There was a great, like,
like a sense of confidence
and have a creative engagement
with the rest of the
world. And so to suddenly
become this like shrunk and
fearful people, right? Like, that's,
that's really like, you know,
then, then you end up
kind of in some sort
of you'll need a theocracy
to protect you from like,
you know, the world, because
it's just it's the world
is so frightening.

English: 
he made that very harmful
and he got in trouble
for them. I know, but,
so that's very important like
that, that like that feeling
of, of being so complex
and of being so sensitive
that like, nobody can say
anything and you just want
to stand there, like clutching
your culture because you're so
afraid that something's gonna hurt
it.
Or someone's like, that is
not the spirit of like
Indian cosmopolitanism. That was not
the spirit of Gandhi or
Nehru to go. What's adopted.
There was a great, like,
like a sense of confidence
and have a creative engagement
with the rest of the
world. And so to suddenly
become this like shrunk and
fearful people, right? Like, that's,
that's really like, you know,
then, then you end up
kind of in some sort
of you'll need a theocracy
to protect you from like,
you know, the world, because
it's just it's the world
is so frightening.

English: 
So anyone could say anything,
anyone could, you know, like
upset you or like, so
if you need, like whatever
happens at the end of
this, it's very important that
like, that you make, once
people make that peace with
that situation, because, you know,
it's, it does have incredible
destructive potential. When, when I,
when I, when I try
to talk to you about
the civilizational state sort of
becoming adjusting towards an ideological
state, that the theocracy theocracy
is the worst of my
nightmares, when it comes to
that, I often end up
wondering, it's like, are you
guys awake to the fact
that the same road that
we're taking right now can
end up brilliantly beautiful your
social Renaissance, the way you
ideally imagined it to be,
or it might end up
into an Iran and I'm
no, absolutely not.
Right. And you were right
it's after the whole controversy
had gotten gone down on
my Twitter about me abusing
whatever Hindu gods I was
like, please don't carry your

English: 
So anyone could say anything,
anyone could, you know, like
upset you or like, so
if you need, like whatever
happens at the end of
this, it's very important that
like, that you make, once
people make that peace with
that situation, because, you know,
it's, it does have incredible
destructive potential. When, when I,
when I, when I try
to talk to you about
the civilizational state sort of
becoming adjusting towards an ideological
state, that the theocracy theocracy
is the worst of my
nightmares, when it comes to
that, I often end up
wondering, it's like, are you
guys awake to the fact
that the same road that
we're taking right now can
end up brilliantly beautiful your
social Renaissance, the way you
ideally imagined it to be,
or it might end up
into an Iran and I'm
no, absolutely not.
Right. And you were right
it's after the whole controversy
had gotten gone down on
my Twitter about me abusing
whatever Hindu gods I was
like, please don't carry your

English: 
cultures in such a fragile
manner. I'm not looking to
offend it. Be more courageous.
And also like, like, what
do they want? Like if
you ask them, like, what
is the India that they
imagined? Like, is it a
place? Is it a place
where there are, for instance,
like you have IITs, you
have maybe institutes of classical
studies, you have a prominent
place for Indian learning and
your education is that the
kind of thing you want,
but you want like modern
highways, lots of travel bars
and restaurants, boys, and girls
going to, do you want
all of that?
Or is that because I
don't know what this other
vision is. I don't think
they haven't really articulated it.
You're right. And that's because
we've, we've gotten into this
age of anti-intellectualism where, you
know, people who've worked the
four barriers of, you know,
pushing human experience writers or
artists in general intellectuals are
looked down upon in a
way. And it, it sort
of scares me that that

English: 
cultures in such a fragile
manner. I'm not looking to
offend it. Be more courageous.
And also like, like, what
do they want? Like if
you ask them, like, what
is the India that they
imagined? Like, is it a
place? Is it a place
where there are, for instance,
like you have IITs, you
have maybe institutes of classical
studies, you have a prominent
place for Indian learning and
your education is that the
kind of thing you want,
but you want like modern
highways, lots of travel bars
and restaurants, boys, and girls
going to, do you want
all of that?
Or is that because I
don't know what this other
vision is. I don't think
they haven't really articulated it.
You're right. And that's because
we've, we've gotten into this
age of anti-intellectualism where, you
know, people who've worked the
four barriers of, you know,
pushing human experience writers or
artists in general intellectuals are
looked down upon in a
way. And it, it sort
of scares me that that

English: 
is the mood you're, you're
absolutely right at the point
where you ask a certain,
someone of a certain nature
as to what do you
imagine the future of India
to be?
And they go back to
the "Sone ki Chidiya"
a dream. It is a
recursion to history. It's, it's,
it's this nostalgic romanticism that
I will not make peace
with you. Like you said,
in the beginning, what does
it look like every day?
This Sone ki Chidiya,
I like, what's the, what
is it actually gonna look
and feel like, you know,
you're right. You're right. It
has to be put down
in words for you to
bend, conceptualize it in your
mind, properly for you to
then act towards it. You
cannot have, right. You're absolutely
right. And I mean, it
is, but it's all sorts
of things.
I mean, I, I often
say that there is no
point of political argumentation. If
the economy is not in
a safe place, we live
in a materialistic world driven
by capitalistic motivations. Let's not
talk about all abstractions are
to figure out the economy.
And so, you know, this
was my great, like, this
is why, like, this was

English: 
is the mood you're, you're
absolutely right at the point
where you ask a certain,
someone of a certain nature
as to what do you
imagine the future of India
to be?
And they go back to
the "Sone ki Chidiya"
a dream. It is a
recursion to history. It's, it's,
it's this nostalgic romanticism that
I will not make peace
with you. Like you said,
in the beginning, what does
it look like every day?
This Sone ki Chidiya,
I like, what's the, what
is it actually gonna look
and feel like, you know,
you're right. You're right. It
has to be put down
in words for you to
bend, conceptualize it in your
mind, properly for you to
then act towards it. You
cannot have, right. You're absolutely
right. And I mean, it
is, but it's all sorts
of things.
I mean, I, I often
say that there is no
point of political argumentation. If
the economy is not in
a safe place, we live
in a materialistic world driven
by capitalistic motivations. Let's not
talk about all abstractions are
to figure out the economy.
And so, you know, this
was my great, like, this
is why, like, this was

English: 
my grade, the great appeal
for Modi, for me in
2014, I was like, I
don't care about chauvinism. And
twice there's prosperity. If there's
prosperity, like people are too
invested.
And then a bad idea
can't really take, hold, let
them have it. They want
to have like, around temple.
They want to have like
this stuff on their cars.
They want to say Bharat Mata ki Jai
five times a day. Let
them say all that, but
let them have jobs. And
like, be part of like,
like a future that looks
something like let's use just
South Korea as a model, you
know, where you're, we're moving
in that direction. And you're
moving at that pace. You
know, even a tyranny like
China, it's moved enough. People
enough people have come onto
the site where they earn
$10,000 a year.
And then as society becomes
very stable, it becomes very
hard for a truly catastrophic idea to take hold.

English: 
my grade, the great appeal
for Modi, for me in
2014, I was like, I
don't care about chauvinism. And
twice there's prosperity. If there's
prosperity, like people are too
invested.
And then a bad idea
can't really take, hold, let
them have it. They want
to have like, around temple.
They want to have like
this stuff on their cars.
They want to say Bharat Mata ki Jai
five times a day. Let
them say all that, but
let them have jobs. And
like, be part of like,
like a future that looks
something like let's use just
South Korea as a model, you
know, where you're, we're moving
in that direction. And you're
moving at that pace. You
know, even a tyranny like
China, it's moved enough. People
enough people have come onto
the site where they earn
$10,000 a year.
And then as society becomes
very stable, it becomes very
hard for a truly catastrophic idea to take hold.

English: 
And that's not to say
like, people like places like
Iran were very rich when
they committed suicide. This is
like rush on the absolute
app. They were like at
the forefront of Western civilization
when they decided to lose
an entire century from which
they never recovered. So these
moments of change are very
volatile.
And the fear for me
was always like, if there
isn't prosperity enough prosperity to
feed this transition, then a
vacuum is left. Where a truly
bad idea can take hold.
And now what I fear
is that that bad idea
is being fostered. You know,
it's, it's, it's all this
cultural stuff. It's all like
some kind of like Vega
and vega dream of
some Ram Rajya or Hindu and
do like, and, and, and
it's, it's like, if you,
if you lose a generation,
if you, if one doesn't

English: 
And that's not to say
like, people like places like
Iran were very rich when
they committed suicide. This is
like rush on the absolute
app. They were like at
the forefront of Western civilization
when they decided to lose
an entire century from which
they never recovered. So these
moments of change are very
volatile.
And the fear for me
was always like, if there
isn't prosperity enough prosperity to
feed this transition, then a
vacuum is left. Where a truly
bad idea can take hold.
And now what I fear
is that that bad idea
is being fostered. You know,
it's, it's, it's all this
cultural stuff. It's all like
some kind of like Vega
and vega dream of
some Ram Rajya or Hindu and
do like, and, and, and
it's, it's like, if you,
if you lose a generation,
if you, if one doesn't

English: 
change, because that's the fear
for me, like 30 or
40 years at a time
like this at a time
of what used to be
possibility, it's the difference between
like either making it as
a country or ending up
as a basket case, you
write 30 years in our
time.
are not 30 years, a
hundred years ago by that
standard the 300 years. And
in every sense of the
word, like, you know, I
sometimes Twitter surprises me
with something nice. And there
was a tweet that said,
there's quantum computing, Neurolink CRISPR
of flying to Mars and
all of that happening on
one end. And the world's
media has focused on this buffoonery,
that happens in global politics,
all around the world in
a similar fashion and the
similar pattern over and over,
over and over. And it's
like, can we please be
invested in something like that?
Can we please?
I don't, for me, even
the opposite is true, right.
I'm fine with the fact
you're right. Most, most political
decisions flower in retrospect. Right?
So even if it's all
hindutva and all of that,
eventually if everybody has the

English: 
change, because that's the fear
for me, like 30 or
40 years at a time
like this at a time
of what used to be
possibility, it's the difference between
like either making it as
a country or ending up
as a basket case, you
write 30 years in our
time.
are not 30 years, a
hundred years ago by that
standard the 300 years. And
in every sense of the
word, like, you know, I
sometimes Twitter surprises me
with something nice. And there
was a tweet that said,
there's quantum computing, Neurolink CRISPR
of flying to Mars and
all of that happening on
one end. And the world's
media has focused on this buffoonery,
that happens in global politics,
all around the world in
a similar fashion and the
similar pattern over and over,
over and over. And it's
like, can we please be
invested in something like that?
Can we please?
I don't, for me, even
the opposite is true, right.
I'm fine with the fact
you're right. Most, most political
decisions flower in retrospect. Right?
So even if it's all
hindutva and all of that,
eventually if everybody has the

English: 
money, then look back, we
let great decision. That was
the best we could've done.
But if that doesn't
Happen, right, the odds are
you, you, you you'd hate
this moment in history, if
this isn't right. And even
the opposite group, if, if
you leave out all cultural
significance and if you give
people economic prosperity, I'm fine.
But even that with when
I, when the, the nightmare
of an entire society, civilization
is starving to death under
a fly over and looks
at you with eyes half.
Yeah.
It is very hard to
go to sleep peacefully. It
just genuinely is very hard
to go to sleep easily.
And so those are more
immediate problems to me. And
then everything else can follow.
Right? Yeah. You were saying,
No, I was just going
to say that, you know,
there are so many people
who would have been like
literally at, at that very,
very vulnerable point. And now

English: 
money, then look back, we
let great decision. That was
the best we could've done.
But if that doesn't
Happen, right, the odds are
you, you, you you'd hate
this moment in history, if
this isn't right. And even
the opposite group, if, if
you leave out all cultural
significance and if you give
people economic prosperity, I'm fine.
But even that with when
I, when the, the nightmare
of an entire society, civilization
is starving to death under
a fly over and looks
at you with eyes half.
Yeah.
It is very hard to
go to sleep peacefully. It
just genuinely is very hard
to go to sleep easily.
And so those are more
immediate problems to me. And
then everything else can follow.
Right? Yeah. You were saying,
No, I was just going
to say that, you know,
there are so many people
who would have been like
literally at, at that very,
very vulnerable point. And now

English: 
with the kind of like
economic bad news that we're
seeing that moment when, regardless
of their politics, regardless, very
things that they would have
been able to make decisions
in the lives of their
children that would have like
advanced some sort of like,
like deeper base in like
knowledge and education and like
in elevating to a new
level of society, like all
of those things, all of
those decisions, man put to
the scale of like hundreds
of thousands, people would suddenly
not be able to make
any of the choices, you
know, they would suddenly be
reduced.
They would be making a
journey back to where they
came from economically. And so
that's like, it's, it's just,
it's like, it's an absolutely
shattered. I guess what I'm
trying to get at is
the emotional cost when people
are full of dreams and
possibilities. And when they have
to put those aside for
that, for the foreseeable future,

English: 
with the kind of like
economic bad news that we're
seeing that moment when, regardless
of their politics, regardless, very
things that they would have
been able to make decisions
in the lives of their
children that would have like
advanced some sort of like,
like deeper base in like
knowledge and education and like
in elevating to a new
level of society, like all
of those things, all of
those decisions, man put to
the scale of like hundreds
of thousands, people would suddenly
not be able to make
any of the choices, you
know, they would suddenly be
reduced.
They would be making a
journey back to where they
came from economically. And so
that's like, it's, it's just,
it's like, it's an absolutely
shattered. I guess what I'm
trying to get at is
the emotional cost when people
are full of dreams and
possibilities. And when they have
to put those aside for
that, for the foreseeable future,

English: 
you know, it's, it's, it's
absolutely, we describe it as
all 23.9% reduction or whatever,
but we're really dealing with
human beings. You know, we're
dealing with like the destiny
of tens of millions of
human beings who won't be
going anywhere.
Right. You're absolutely right. I
mean, I've had conversations with
people who set out on
dreams three or four or
five or six years ago
would genuinely sitting down and
wondering if they were wrong
all along. And it's, it's,
it's the, it's the, it's
the default state of human
thinking that, you know, you
first come to yourself and
ask if the problems with
you. Maybe it is that
maybe, but it's the wrong
place to be asking questions.
I tell him, I tell
him, my friend is like,
you know, you did what
you could. This is not
your hands. And I mean,
I'm not saying that it's
in anybody's hand, but we
are in a dire situation.
And that's just the reality
of it. And the sooner
we accepted, the sooner we
make peace with the fact
that there is a future
and a past that fall in

English: 
you know, it's, it's, it's
absolutely, we describe it as
all 23.9% reduction or whatever,
but we're really dealing with
human beings. You know, we're
dealing with like the destiny
of tens of millions of
human beings who won't be
going anywhere.
Right. You're absolutely right. I
mean, I've had conversations with
people who set out on
dreams three or four or
five or six years ago
would genuinely sitting down and
wondering if they were wrong
all along. And it's, it's,
it's the, it's the, it's
the default state of human
thinking that, you know, you
first come to yourself and
ask if the problems with
you. Maybe it is that
maybe, but it's the wrong
place to be asking questions.
I tell him, I tell
him, my friend is like,
you know, you did what
you could. This is not
your hands. And I mean,
I'm not saying that it's
in anybody's hand, but we
are in a dire situation.
And that's just the reality
of it. And the sooner
we accepted, the sooner we
make peace with the fact
that there is a future
and a past that fall in

English: 
order in a certain way.
But thank you so much
for doing this. This has
been
Great to speak to you,
Like relax a bit less,
but I've been very relaxed.
I'm just like, I slept
quite little
Last night, but I'm very
relaxed and it was wonderful
to talk to you and,
and look me up if
you're ever here. 

English: 
order in a certain way.
But thank you so much
for doing this. This has
been
Great to speak to you,
Like relax a bit less,
but I've been very relaxed.
I'm just like, I slept
quite little
Last night, but I'm very
relaxed and it was wonderful
to talk to you and,
and look me up if
you're ever here. 
