 
 [MUSIC]
 OPRAH WINFREY: All new. 
 These women are coming forward today to tell you something 
 that could save your marriage. They've been the other woman. 
 It's the side of the story we rarely get to hear,
 straight from the source. Next. 
 WINFREY: Hi, everybody. Hi, hi, hi. 
  [CHEERS AND APPLAUSE] 
 WINFREY: Good to see you all. 
 AUDIENCE MEMBER: We love you, Oprah. 
 WINFREY: Hi, thanks. Have a seat. Have a seat, 
 have a--nice to see you guys. 
 Where's all the brothers coming from? This is my brothers 
 aren't... 
 [LAUGHTER] 
 [CHEERS AND APPLAUSE] 
  WINFREY: Hey. What is going on? 
  [LAUGHTER] 
 WINFREY: What is going on? Are you all... 
 AUDIENCE MEMBER: We love you, Oprah. 
 DEAN: Yeah. 
 WINFREY: Are you all a club or something? 
 [LAUGHTER] 
 WINFREY: What is the occasion? Are you all a group? 
 DEAN: Oprah, we called off from work and we all said 
 we're gonna go as a group. 
 WINFREY: As a group? 
 DEAN: Yes. 
 WINFREY: So you all are friends who all got together 
 and said let's come to the Oprah show? 
 DEAN: Right. We were hoping Gayle would be here. 
 [LAUGHTER] 
 WINFREY: You were hoping Gayle. 
 You were hoping--you should have called me. 
 DEAN: We know. You're not. 
 [LAUGHTER] 
 WINFREY: Though she is very single. 
 DEAN: Very single. 
 [LAUGHTER] 
 WINFREY: You should have told me, honey. 
 I-she would have been here, shed have flown here for that. 
 [LAUGHTER] 
 WINFREY: And it's--how many of you all? 
 One, four, five, six, 12. 
 DEAN: Twelve. 12 of us. 
 WINFREY: Twelve to choose from? 
 [LAUGHTER] 
 WINFREY: Oh my man. 
 DEAN: Twelve. 
 WINFREY: Well. How old are you? You're a little young for her. 
 DEAN: No, I'm not. 
  WINFREY: Okay. 
 DEAN: I'm her age. 
 WINFREY: You are not. 
 [LAUGHTER] 
  DEAN: Well, you know, I'm what she would like. 
 [LAUGHTER] 
 [CHEERS AND APPLAUSE] 
 WINFREY: It's good that we have all of you men in the audience, 
 because this is the show that you would be interested in, 
 to help you for your future. 
 Are you all single men? You're not married? 
 GROUP, AUDIENCE MEMBERS: No. 
 WINFREY: Nobody's married? Okay. So a while back, 
 I sat down with a roomful of cheating husbands who were 
 all very candid about their affairs and many of you told 
 us that what you heard was not only revealing, 
 but eye-opening. Today, you are gonna hear another side 
 of that story, because the women I'm sitting with all 
 admit to doing something many of you might consider to be 
 wrong, immoral, amoral. They are working women. 
 These women are a court reporter, a teacher's aide, 
 a writer, and a public relations executive. 
 Two are married and have children, 
 but they all have something in common. 
 SARAH: I've dated countless
 married men. By the time I was in my mid-20s, 
 it wasn't strange to me at all to have businessmen 
 who were openly married, flirting with me. 
 In fact, it became the norm. 
 CRYSTAL: I've been in a relationship with married men twice. 
 The first time, the relationship lasted off and on 
 for seven years. And there were times when my child 
 and his children, we'd all go out to dinner. 
 MICHELLE: When I'm in a relationship with a married man, 
 it is somewhat of a fantasy life because he does have 
 his own reality. He's married to somebody else and 
 has a life with that other person. 
 MELISSA: I was married and I had an affair with a married man. 
 My husband thought our marriage was fine and I was 
 always wanting an upgrade. 
 WINFREY: Well, Melissa, Michelle, Sarah and Crystal 
 all say that they are here to speak honestly about 
 what it's like to be the other woman from their experience. 
 The first question, how does this start? How does it start? 
 MELISSA: I met the other man at a coffee place. 
 He started showing up every morning at the same time. 
 We're making a lot of eye contact and then he eventually 
 joined in conversation, and it just escalated from there. 
 He said, do you wanna take a ride in my truck? 
 Basically, I'm alone in a truck with somebody of the 
 opposite sex and we both knew what was gonna happen. 
 SARAH: I met him at a business dinner. 
 He was very distinguished businessman, high profile, 
 a lot older than me. He pursued me very hard. 
 He would've phoned me constantly, text messaging and calling. 
 CRYSTAL: The first time I became involved with a married man, 
 I met him through work. I accompanied him on business trips 
 and I would be introduced as a business associate. 
 We would go out two or three times a week. 
 I don't know what he would tell his wife when we went out. 
 MICHELLE: I met him in Vegas. We hooked up for the weekend 
 that was all really it was supposed to be, 
 and that was six and a half years ago. 
 I ended up moving to his town after he had been married 
 and that's when we took it, I guess, to a different level. 
 WINFREY: So Michelle is a 36-year-old single woman who 
 says she's been having an affair with a married man 
 now for seven years. What did you mean when you 
 said took it to a different level? 
 MICHELLE: The first few years when we were dating, 
 I guess, I only saw him, like, once a month or something 
 and we didn't--he'd always kept me at arm's length. 
 WINFREY: Mm-hmm. 
 MICHELLE: He didn't ever wanna get to know me at a 
 different level, I think, 'cause it was easier to keep 
 life separate. And so when I ended up moving into 
 the area where he lived... 
 WINFREY: And you moved into the area where he lived 
 to be near him? 
 MICHELLE: No. I had family in the area. 
 WINFREY: Okay. 
 MICHELLE: So not for that reason at all but we, emotionally, 
 developed a relationship and ended spending 
 a lot more time together. 
 WINFREY: Mm-hmm. 
 MICHELLE: So I got to know him at a deeper level and more 
 about who he was and what he wanted, and it was a lot, 
 a lot more intimate than it had been. 
 It was more physical in the beginning. 
 WINFREY: Well, Michelle's friend Melinda is here. 
 What do you think of Michelle's relationship, Melinda? 
 MELINDA: I have a hard time with it, because, I think, 
 she deserves to be number one in somebody's 
 life and she is always second. 
 WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Sarah, you've dated lots of married 
 men or several? 
 SARAH: When I was younger. 
 WINFREY: Yeah. 
 SARAH: I did get involved with quite a few, yes. 
 I was in a jet set lifestyle with my career and there 
 were many playboys out there who wanted to cheat on their 
 wives and I just--it was my age, my circumstances, everything. 
 WINFREY: And so is it just--were you just involved with 
 men who were married? Did you seek out men who were married? 
 SARAH: No, I never seek them out, specifically. 
 WINFREY: Mm-hmm. 
 SARAH: Sadly, they seemed to be the ones attracted to me. 
 I never met great single guys and so I kind of fell into it, 
 which is no excuse but it's the truth. 
 WINFREY: Uh-huh. Are you--is anyone here, 
 were you seeking out married men? 
 CRYSTAL: I didn't know the men I dated were married 
 when I first met them. 
 WINFREY: Uh-huh. Okay. So but after you go out with 
 one who is married and listen, you know, 
 that isn't--sometimes, the first question on everyone's 
 mind, are you married, but after it's happened to you 
 one time, I would think that would be the first 
 question the next time around. 
 CRYSTAL: Definitely. 
 WINFREY: Yeah. 
 CRYSTAL: Definitely. 
 WINFREY: And so when you find out they are married, 
 does it matter? 
 CRYSTAL: For me it mattered, at the time. 
 WINFREY: Yeah. It did, at the time. 
 How long did the relationship continue? 
 CRYSTAL: For me, it lasted seven years. 
 WINFREY: Seven years. How long did your relationship continue? 
 MELISSA: Eight months. 
 WINFREY: Eight months. And when you were involved in 
 this relationship, I know, like all the women who are 
 watching who are married and, you know, more and more 
 woman are actually having, also having affairs, 
 did you ever, at any time, think about the wife? 
 MELISSA: Oh, yes. 
 WINFREY: Yeah. 
 MELISSA: She was a character of his story, of his life. 
 WINFREY: Yeah. 
 MELISSA: She's an extension of him, just like the kids, 
 his friends, the rest of his family. 
 WINFREY: Mm-hmm. 
 MELISSA: She was just a part of his life that I accepted. 
 WINFREY: That you just accepted. 
 And you felt like what, in the relationship? 
 MELISSA: In the very beginning, it didn't bother me but 
 as I knew that she became suspicious, then it started to 
 bother me because I knew it was hurting somebody else. 
 WINFREY: Uh-huh. 
 MELISSA: If it--what she didn't know wouldn't hurt her, 
 but when she did know, then I realized that it... 
 WINFREY: Felt badly about it. 
 MELISSA: Yeah, yeah. It started to get stressful. 
 WINFREY: And the same for you, Michelle, or not? 
 MICHELLE: I have always chosen not to know about the wife. 
 It's been six and a half years. I don't know to this day. 
 WINFREY: So are you currently still involved? 
 MICHELLE: Yeah. 
 WINFREY: Yeah. Is anybody else here currently still involved? 
 CRYSTAL: Happily married. 
 WINFREY: Happily married. 
 CRYSTAL: Happily married. 
 WINFREY: Happily married, non-cheating, married? 
 CRYSTAL: Correct. 
 WINFREY: Okay. Yes? 
 SARAH: No, and my affair lasted almost two years. 
 WINFREY: Mm-hmm. 
 SARAH: At the beginning, he misrepresented himself and 
 told me he was single and he did a great job on winning me, 
 you know, spoiling me, taking me around the world. 
 He was everything I looked for in a guy. 
 I'd thought I'd found Mr. Perfect. 
 WINFREY: Yeah. 
 SARAH: So when he dropped the bombshell that he wasn't 
 actually that available, I moved into another stage by then, 
 'cause I was deeply in love with him. 
 And I thought if I kept going with this and being the 
 person he'd fallen in love with, I could, somehow, 
 win him away from his wife. 
 I wanted to be number one. That was my challenge then. 
 WINFREY: Uh-huh. 
 SARAH: That went on to be a very destructive path for me. 
 WINFREY: How so? 
 SARAH: Because the more I wanted to be number one and 
 the more that he was manipulating me into believing 
 I could be with a-- 
 he talked about building a future together... 
 WINFREY: Mm-hmm. 
 SARAH: ...and he was a very intelligent businessman, 
 so I was dealing with somebody who, actually, 
 was a manipulator, as part of his job every day. 
 WINFREY: Mm-hmm. And you're shaking your head because? 
 CRYSTAL: I'm agreeing with everything she's saying. 
 WINFREY: Do you feel you were manipulated into the 
 relationship? 
 CRYSTAL: Oh, definitely. 
 WINFREY: Yeah. 
 CRYSTAL: Especially when they don't tell you upfront 
 that they're married. 
 WINFREY: Mm-hmm. 
 CRYSTAL: And I was very young, my daughter was three, 
 at the time, and he was, he had the attributes of my soul 
 mate and then, by the time I was emotionally invested, 
 I found out that he was married. 
 WINFREY: Mm-hmm. 
 CRYSTAL: And I--after the seven years we spent more time 
 together, the wife wasn't calling, we were going on trips, 
 so I began to believe that she didn't care and that 
 she was okay with it. 
 WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Yeah. We'll be back in a moment. 
  [APPLAUSE] 
 WINFREY: Coming up, what happened when one of our other 
 women meets the wife. But first, Melissa tells us why 
 she believes having an affair saved her unhappy marriage. 
 MELISSA: The day I confessed the affair to my husband, 
 he just shattered. He literally folded in half, 
 went to the ground--I mean, he's six foot two inches, 
 240 pounds and he just, he started crying. 
 Many times through the years that I told him that 
 I was unhappy and needed more from him and it just fell 
 on deaf ears. The affair changed my marriage because he 
 was willing to, not only stay in the marriage, but work 
 toward a better marriage. He said I had kind of knocked the 
 cocky right out of him. Today, our marriage is 100% percent 
 better than I ever imagined it would be. 
 [MUSIC]
  [MUSIC]
 CRYSTAL: What I really liked about the relationship is 
 that I always had the freedom to go out on other dates. 
 There was never a time where he could say to me, well, 
 I don't want you seeing other men, when he would go home 
 to his wife. I didn't have some of the obligations that 
 come with being a wife. I didn't have to clean up behind him, 
 I didn't have to cook for him. It was great to have someone 
 there when you needed a date or you needed money or you 
 needed companionship. It was like I could rent a husband. 
 WINFREY: So Crystal is now married and a mother and she says 
 she regrets her seven-year affair with a married man. 
 Why do you now regret it? 
 CRYSTAL: I regret it because all the time I was spending 
 with him, I could've been, I could've made myself available 
 to a man who could commit to me fully. 
 WINFREY: Mm-hmm. 
 CRYSTAL: I've grown a lot in the past seven years and I'm not 
 here to judge, but I feel that my relationship was wrong... 
 WINFREY: Mm-hmm. 
 CRYSTAL: ...and that there was no good that could come from it. 
 WINFREY: Yeah. And why do you feel that it was wrong? 
 CRYSTAL: Well, eventually, I became the other, other woman, 
 so another woman entered the picture. 
 WINFREY: Yeah. 
 CRYSTAL: And I realized that if he was going to be unfaithful 
 to his wife, certainly, down the line, he was gonna be 
 unfaithful to me. We didn't have any core values in our 
 relationship that we... 
 WINFREY: Yeah. 
 CRYSTAL: ...based on deceit. 
 WINFREY: Well, your story, you know, I don't think I've ever 
 said this on TV before, but your story really mirrors my 
 story, because when I was in my--yes. In my 20s, 
 I was involved with a married man. And it is one of my 
 greatest regrets. And later found out that that the married 
 man also had another--I would--I also became the other, 
 other woman. And it is such a powerless position to be in 
 and such a, you know, if I--you know, I have a whole lot of 
 regrets in my life, but I regret it not only because of 
 the--how pathetic it made me as a woman... 
 CRYSTAL: Mm-hmm. 
 WINFREY: ...and I regret it not only because I was pathetic, 
 but because of what I did to his wife. 
 CRYSTAL: Mm-hmm. 
 WINFREY: Or, you know, I didn't think about his wife. 
 I believed what he was telling me. I believed the lies 
 that he was telling me about her. 
 And so, you know, I look back at that time in my life and 
 feel, you know, it's not that he was responsible anyway, 
 because I always had the choice. 
 CRYSTAL: Mm-hmm. 
 WINFREY: I always had the choice. 
 CRYSTAL: I had painted a picture of what his wife looked 
 like based on everything he told me and I actually had 
 a chance to meet her once and she was beautiful and poised 
 and she was just the opposite of the picture he painted. 
 And so... 
 WINFREY: Of course. 
 CRYSTAL: ...that was just, I guess, that was my aha moment. 
 WINFREY: Of course, 'cause, you know, no guy is gonna say, 
 you know, my wife is really beautiful and she's really 
 good to me and things are really going well at home, 
 and everything's lovely and I'm just using you. 
 CRYSTAL: Mm-hmm. 
 [LAUGHTER] 
 MELISSA: Well, actually, the other man in my life, 
 he did say his wife was beautiful... 
 WINFREY: Mm-hmm. 
 MELISSA: ...and that he loved her and, you know, 
 things weren't great at home, 
 but it was just something he did. 
 WINFREY: Uh-huh. 
 MELISSA: In a way, it was like, well, if she's so great 
 then I must be really great, you know, to him. 
 He--for him to be interested in me with being so happy at home. 
 WINFREY: But now, you know what I was saying, 
 I mean--I've, you know, often talked about, you know, 
 my dating years in the 20s and 
 how--what a sorrowful time that was. 
 [LAUGHTER] 
 WINFREY: When you look back on yourself now... 
 MICHELLE: Mm-hmm. 
 WINFREY: ...and you're still in it, 
 but it is a pathetic situation. 
 And when you finally get out of it, you will look back 
 at yourself and say, why was I this pathetic? 
 And what do you think of yourself? 
 MICHELLE: I don't have a problem with myself. 
 I have a problem with what I'm doing. 
 I don't think it's right. 
 I've never felt or thought it was right. 
 WINFREY: Uh-huh. 
 MICHELLE: I didn't meet him, he wasn't married when I met him. 
 WINFREY: Uh-huh. 
 CRYSTAL: So it wasn't a situation where I ever got 
 into it because he was a married man and I expected 
 to not be having an affair. I've always been completely 
 against it. I think it's wrong. 
 WINFREY: Uh-huh. 
 MICHELLE: I didn't mean to fall in love with him. 
 So I don't look at it as right at all. 
 WINFREY: How could you possibly believe that somebody 
 is not lying to you if they're lying to the person 
 that they made their vows to? 
 MICHELLE: You know, I guess I don't look at it that-- 
 I mean, I do look at it in the sense like people say, 
 well, if you were ever to--if he were ever to divorce 
 his wife and marry you, he's gonna do it to you. 
 And I've always been the type of person that says, 
 you know, there's a good possibility it would happen. 
 WINFREY: Yeah. 
 MICHELLE: You know, it's--I can't say it wouldn't. 
 I'm not one to defend it and say, oh, 
 but I'm the right person for his life. I'm the person. 
 I don't know. I would take the chance. 
 WINFREY: Uh-huh. 
 MICHELLE: I know the relationship I have with him, 
 I don't feel it's right to be having an affair but, 
 you know, I know our situation and we have great chemistry. 
 He's my--one of my dearest friends and... 
 WINFREY: Okay. So in the name of chemistry, 
 you'll keep doing it. 
 MICHELLE: Probably, actually. 
 WINFREY: Well, Dr. Michelle Callahan is a psychologist 
 who's counseled both the other woman and wives whose 
 husbands have cheated. What do you want to say to 
 women who get involve with married men? 
 DOCTOR CALLAHAN: You know, Michelle, you really need to get 
 in touch with what there is that happened in your past, 
 what you were told about yourself or what you think about 
 yourself today that would allow you to put yourself in this 
 secondary position. If you were to go to a bar today and 
 meet a man, and he were to promise you, hey, you know what? 
 I'm gonna give you 30% percent of my time, 30 percent of my 
 attention, 30% percent of my love, you'd tell him to go get 
 out of your face just as quick as the day is long but, 
 in this situation, you allow yourself to stay and it's 
 a toxic relationship. 
 Dr. CALLAHAN: And every day that you stay in it, 
 it erodes your self-esteem, it erodes you self-worth, 
 and it makes you feel less powerful. 
 And you have the power to change it, you made the choice 
 to get into it, and you can make the choice to get out. 
 MICHELLE: And I've gotten out of it before. 
 [APPLAUSE] 
 WINFREY: Okay. Well, let's just ask you this. Okay. 
 Are you happy? Are you happy with this situation? 
 MICHELLE: I mean, there's periods where I'm not, 
 yeah, but you know what... 
 WINFREY: No, really, no, you did--you hate it. 
 Hey, I know that. 
 MICHELLE: Yeah. 
 WINFREY: Well, sometimes everything isn't perfect. 
 Life is like that. Are you happy? 
 MICHELLE: In general, yes. I wish we could be married. 
 I wish it could be different. I don't believe that it will 
 ever be different. I honestly don't. But am I happy? 
 Yeah, I see him more than most people see their boyfriends. 
 I see him pretty much every day. 
 It's a great--we have a great time. 
 WINFREY: How is it--so what kind of lies is he telling 
 his wife? 
 MICHELLE: I don't know that he has--the way his job is, 
 I don't know that he has to lie to his wife about where he is. 
 I really don't know that he is. 
 WINFREY: Well, he ain't telling her he's with you. 
 MELISSA: It's lies by omission. 
 MICHELLE: Yeah, no, I don't think he's telling her. 
 I don't think he's--I think, yeah, he's lying by not 
 saying anything--yeah, yeah. 
 WINFREY: He's not saying, I'm not with you, I'm with Michelle. 
 So what is--what he--he has to be telling her something. 
 MICHELLE: His job is not normal hours. 
 It's not anything normal, so I don't know, 
 I don't know what it is. 
 MELISSA: She's in love with a liar. 
 MICHELLE: I really choose not to find out anything 
 about his wife. 
 SARAH: My guy used to say to me, he's not actually 
 lying to his wife because she knew where he was. 
 If he was on a business trip, he just left out the part 
 that I was with him. So to him, that wasn't lying. 
 WINFREY: Uh-huh. Coming up, the number one reason these 
 women say men do cheat. We'll talk about that when we 
 come back, back in a moment. 
 [MUSIC]
 [MUSIC]
 SARAH: Our affair was one big adrenaline rush. 
 Everything was so spontaneous and so secretive and so edgy 
 that it was always fun. 
 And our sexual chemistry was fantastic. 
 It was very hot and heavy and I ended up flying all over 
 the world to see him at his expense. 
 MELISSA: We would see each other three or four times a week. 
 The kids had soccer practice. I'd drop them off and run down 
 to our spot. It was shielded by trees above a road, 
 so it was completely secluded. 
 CRYSTAL: We would usually meet at my apartment. 
 He would buy me lingerie and he really liked for me to be 
 sexy for him. I felt that I could offer him great sex 
 and that his wife could not offer him that. 
 MICHELLE: He would come to my house a lot. 
 And there sometimes we would stay in a hotel. 
 We had great sexual chemistry. And we were intimate. 
 I mean it was everything except that he went home to 
 his home and I went home to my home. 
 WINFREY: And so is it an illusion to believe that that 
 kind of sexual chemistry or attraction can be a lasting thing? 
 Dr. CALLAHAN: Absolutely, because it's just an escape from 
 this man's reality. He's just looking for a sexual fantasy 
 and he plays it out with the other woman instead of playing 
 it out with his wife. She has so many fewer responsibilities 
 than the wife does. Your only job is to stroke his ego, 
 make him feel important, and look the way he wants to look. 
 That's not how any real relationship works. 
 WINFREY: So what is the counseling that the other woman 
 needs? Doesn't the other woman need to just not mess 
 with other people's husbands? 
 Dr. CALLAHAN: Absolutely. 
 WINFREY: So what do you say to her? 
 Dr. CALLAHAN: I'd try to get her in touch with where she 
 came from and why she would even agree from the very 
 first step... 
 WINFREY: Yeah. 
 Dr. CALLAHAN: ...when you know he's married--not if you 
 don't know, but if you do know... 
 WINFREY: Yeah. 
 Dr. CALLAHAN: ...why did you agree right then and there? 
 WINFREY: What if you don't know... 
 Dr. CALLAHAN: What are you afraid of? 
 WINFREY: What if you don't know and you're involved with 
 the person--you're emotionally involved with the person 
 when you realize now, oh, my god, this person's married. 
 Dr. CALLAHAN: It's very, very difficult because women are 
 very emotional and they get very emotionally attached 
 and connected.  And at that point, it's very hard for 
 them to make the disconnect. We create a plan to very 
 slowly start to pull them out of the relationship because 
 they're in love then. They are even more invested in the 
 fantasy that they will eventually become the wife. 
 They believe it. They say, we're connected, we're in love, 
 we're making plans to go forward. So it's very hard to have 
 that reality check and say, you know what? You being in this 
 relationship actually is going to make it more likely that 
 he stays with his wife than it is that he will leave her. 
 It's very hard to get them to believe that. It takes a
 very long time to get that message to sink in. 
 WINFREY: That you're being in the relationship is more--
  he's more likely to stay with his wife. 
 Dr. CALLAHAN: Absolutely. 
 WINFREY: Why? 
 Dr. CALLAHAN: Because he can have the best of both worlds. 
 He can have his cake and eat it too. 
 He's got no reason to leave his wife if you will continue 
 to date him and stay with him while he's with his wife. 
 He doesn't have to get rid of either one of you. 
 He can keep both of you. Why would he ever leave? 
 WINFREY: So why do you think men cheat? Why was the man  
 that you're now currently involved with and have been 
 for six and a half years, why is he cheating? 
 MICHELLE: I met him before he got married. 
 So I think it was the relationship... 
 WINFREY: So why didn't he marry you? 
 MICHELLE: Because he's the type of person who already 
 was in the situation. I met him at a time in my life when 
 I was just out to have fun. I knew he had a girlfriend. 
 WINFREY: Uh-huh. 
 MICHELLE: I didn't really--I wasn't looking for anything. 
 WINFREY: Okay. 
 MICHELLE: I think he married someone who's a good companion. 
 Financially, they work well together. 
 I think that's important to him. I think he loves her. 
 I think instead of investing emotionally in the relationship, 
 he's chosen to look where it's easier outside maybe. 
 WINFREY: Yeah. And it's easier... 
 MICHELLE: And I felt... 
 WINFREY: ...it's easier with you? 
 MICHELLE: I don't think that's the right way to do it, but I, 
 you know, I think obviously there's something missing. 
 And instead of taking the time to... 
 WINFREY: Okay. The man you were dating, why was he cheating? 
 SARAH: He was telling me that he didn't have the chemistry 
 at home with his wife... 
 WINFREY: Mm-hmm. 
 SARAH: ...and he was only with her because of the children. 
 And he actually led me along the garden path to say that he 
 wanted me and he was gonna leave her. And that's the-- 
 I was basically in love with a con man. So that's what I 
 wanted to believe would happen. And I got so far into denial. 
 WINFREY: Why was he cheating, Crystal? 
 CRYSTAL: He fell in love with me and he wanted to wait 'til 
 his children graduated from high school to leave his wife. 
 It's cheaper to keep her. He didn't wanna address alimony 
 and child support issues if he left his wife. 
 WINFREY: Okay. We'll be right back. 
 WINFREY: Coming up, Dr. Callahan tells us what cheating 
 men don't want their mistresses to know. 
 [MUSIC]
 [MUSIC]
 CRYSTAL: I had fairytale dreams of us being a power couple, 
 being a well-kept wife, and having the big home and fancy 
 cars and big diamond ring. 
 But it was never going to be a reality. 
 MICHELLE: I would love for us to end up marrying. 
 And people say, well, he's cheated on, you know, his wife, 
 he'll cheat on you. It could happen. 
 And I would take that chance on in a heartbeat. 
 MELISSA: There was a lot of dreaming out loud where we 
 would say, oh, wouldn't it be nice if we could do this 
 or we could do that. But I think both of us knew that 
 it was a relationship that wouldn't make it. 
 SARAH: He wanted a future with me so much so that he 
 gave me a budget to go and look at properties, 
 look at houses, talked about settling down, 
 talked about how he would explain to his other half that 
 he was leaving and when he was going to do it. 
 He even rehearsed what he was going to say in front of me. 
 Of course, nothing happened. He couldn't leave her. 
 WINFREY: Well, after Sarah's own experiences as the other 
 woman and talking to dozens of other mistresses, 
 she wrote a book called, "Having an Affair? 
 A Handbook for the Other Woman." What good do you think 
 can come from such a thing, from your book? 
 SARAH: I was in such a low place that year. 
 He had absolutely crucified me. And I began writing a 
 diary as rehab, to try and get myself through it. 
 I didn't know how to pick up the pieces. 
 And slowly, the diary turned into the book. 
 And I just hope that I can help--if I can help one woman 
 not go through what I went through and waste so much time, 
 then my work is done. 
 WINFREY: 'Cause you believed the picture that he painted. 
 SARAH: I believed the picture he painted. 
 And I wanted that picture. 
 WINFREY: Uh-huh. 
 SARAH: And then when push came to shove, 
 he chose his wife over me, as is usually the case. 
 WINFREY: Mm-hmm. 
 SARAH: I was discarded. I had nowhere to go. 
 I was suffering financially, mentally and physically. 
 My health... 
 WINFREY: How long were you in it? 
 SARAH: Almost two years. 
 WINFREY: Almost two years. Yeah. So you believed all the lies. 
 SARAH: I did. 
 WINFREY: Yeah. 
 SARAH: I--and--I did. 
 WINFREY: Yeah. And there are always lies, 
 are there not, Dr. Callahan? 
 Dr. CALLAHAN: I mean, I think from what you've said, 
 sometimes, they say the wife is wonderful, 
 but a lot of times, it is lies. 
 And they keep feeding you the story that you're going 
 to move forward, but you keep noticing the reality check 
 that it's not moving forward. So it's a big ego stroke to 
 the woman, too, where he's telling you all--men have 
 us figured out. They got it already. 
 They understand us better than we understand them. 
 And they know how to prey on women's vulnerabilities 
 and how to give them that emotional attention. 
 And they'll give you what you want so they can 
 get what they want. 
 WINFREY: And so when you find yourself involved in that 
 kind of entanglement where, Sarah was saying earlier, 
 she wanted to win. She'd been put in the position where 
 she wanted to win. Your advice to women is what? 
 Dr. CALLAHAN: They have to get out of their mindset of 
 being a competition. You're not--the wife has already won. 
 She's already got the grand prize. 
 So you have to really stop thinking about when it might... 
 WINFREY: She's already got the lying grand 
 prize is one she got. 
 Dr. CALLAHAN: Yeah. 
 [LAUGHTER] 
 WINFREY: A lying, cheating grand prize she's got. 
 Dr. CALLAHAN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 
 [LAUGHTER] 
 Dr. CALLAHAN: Well, yeah. That's right. 
 What kind of prize is he really? 
 WINFREY: Yeah. 
 Dr. CALLAHAN: And start focusing back on how to pick your 
 life back up, because you do get so entangled with that 
 other person that you don't know how to live without them. 
 WINFREY: Yeah. And I think one of the things for women who, 
 you know--'cause it's very easy to villainize the other woman, 
 but I think that quite often, the wives don't understand 
 the lies that are being told. I think the wives think that, 
 well, why would you do this? Well, you know, 
 in the case that we've heard here, you know, a lot of times, 
 you don't even know until you're emotionally involved. 
 And the guy is never telling you the truth. 
 Dr. CALLAHAN: Well, he knows you're more comfortable 
 knowing that he's unhappy, that he's not emotionally 
 supported, that he's not sexually satisfied, 
 that he feels lonely. Women are nurturers quite naturally. 
 So when they hear all these things, they immediately 
 step up and say, I'll take care of that. I'll please you. 
 I'll show you how it feels to be loved. 
 I can take care of you. I'm a wonderful person. 
 Let me show you how great I am and I can fix it. 
 WINFREY: Coming up, what wives have to say to 
 the other woman? That's next. You get your chance, 
 all the wives out there. 
 [MUSIC]
 [MUSIC]
 MELISSA: He would tell me that he loved her very much, 
 but it was just starting to get stale. 
 MICHELLE: I don't know her name, what she does. 
 I've never asked. I've never wanted to put a face to the 
 person. I've never wanted to give her an identity. 
 SARAH: He told me he was physically and emotionally 
 frustrated at home. He said if they didn't have children 
 they wouldn't be together, that he was in love with me, 
 not her. I became obsessed with him leaving his wife. 
 The lowest point came when I actually called his wife 
 and told her what was going on. 
 WINFREY: And when you say it finally got so bad, Sarah, 
 you called her up to say what? 
 SARAH: To tell her what had been going on for the last 
 two years because I felt at that point, she needed to 
 know he was doing some bad things. 
 WINFREY: Yeah. And what was your intention doing that? 
 Were you still trying to win him? 
 SARAH: At the time, Oprah, I wasn't quite sure. 
 I wasn't in a great mental place. I just knew that 
 I had to stop this guy doing it to both of us. 
 He was crucifying me and absolutely killing his wife, 
 who didn't know what was going on. 
 WINFREY: Well, we've been joined by two wives. 
 Catherine joins us and also Teryl. 
 Catherine says that she discovered her husband was 
 cheating when he came home with--this is--men, brothers, 
 take the lipstick off of your lips. 
 [LAUGHTER] 
 WINFREY: 'Cause her husband came home with the lipstick 
 on his lips, not even on his collar. How did he explain that? 
 CATHERINE: Well, I had to wake him up. He was asleep. 
 WINFREY: Yeah. 
 CATHERINE: And I walked by the next morning, 
 I was getting ready for work, and I looked down and I saw 
 the shine on his lips. And I leaned over, you know, 
 and woke him up. And I said, what's the lipstick? 
 And he was like, you know--he's in the entertainment 
 business--so he said, you know, I had something to do 
 last night, and someone, you know, just kind of kissed me 
 hello, it was a celebrity that kissed him hello. 
 And at that time I believed him. 
 WINFREY: Was that your first, 'cause I always hear from 
 friends of mine whose husbands have cheated that there's 
 always a hmm. There's that first kind of like, uh-huh. 
 Okay. Yeah. 
 CATHERINE: That wasn't my first. 
 WINFREY: That wasn't your first. You'd had others. 
 CATHERINE: No, I had several. 
 WINFREY: Mm-hmm. 
 CATHERINE: There was one time when we were on a road 
 trip and we were in the car and his phone went off 
 and he just didn't want to get it. And I'm like, I'll get it. 
 WINFREY: Mm-hmm. 
 CATHERINE: You know, do you want me to answer? 
 And he was like, no, no. No, it's fine. 
 And then I caught him when we stopped for gas. 
 I caught him checking his phone and talking to someone. 
 And I said, I bet that's not a friend. I bet that's a woman. 
 WINFREY: Bet that's a woman. And you finally ended it when? 
 When you realized... 
 CATHERINE: It took a long time. 
 It took several years and a lot of things to just, 
 you know, really end it for me. 
 But what the deciding factor was, the sheriff knocked on 
 the door and served him child support papers. 
 And he knew it was coming. 
 WINFREY: For a child you didn't know existed? 
 CATHERINE: No. 
 WINFREY: Uh-huh. 
 CATHERINE: And he knew it was coming, 
 and he just opted not to tell me. 
 After he locked himself in the bathroom and let himself out... 
 [LAUGHTER] 
 CATHERINE: ...and... 
 WINFREY: Drama mama, drama, drama mama. Yeah. 
 CATHERINE: Yeah. And I proceeded to try and knock his 
 front tooth out, I... 
  [LAUGHTER] 
 [CHEERS AND APPLAUSE] 
  CATHERINE: I decided it was time to leave. 
 WINFREY: Yeah. Yeah. Back in a moment. 
 WINFREY: Coming up, her husband left while she was pregnant 
 with their fourth child. What she has to say to the 
 other woman. That's next. 
 [MUSIC]
 [MUSIC]
 WINFREY: We're talking to wives who discovered their 
 husbands were cheating. Okay, how did you find out, Teryl? 
 TERYL: I overheard a phone conversation. 
 I walked in and heard him say to her, 
 I wish you weren't working today, 'cause I'd try to buzz 
 out to see you for a while. 
 So I instantly knew something wasn't right. 
 My heart started pounding. I busted the door open and 
 started asking, who are you talking to? 
 Who are you talking to? And at that moment I think he 
 snapped into reality for a moment. 
 And we talked, and I found out there was something going on. 
 WINFREY: Yeah. And at that time you were pregnant with your 
 fourth child, I hear? 
 TERYL: Yes. 
 WINFREY: Fourth child. 
 TERYL: Yes. 
 WINFREY: Wow. And so when you found out about it, 
 and you burst into the room, did he--and confronted him, 
 did he tell you the truth immediately? 
 TERYL: He told me that there was an emotional affair going on. 
 He said that there was nothing physical at that point. 
 WINFREY: Mm-hmm. 
 TERYL: And I chose to believe him... 
 WINFREY: Mm-hmm. 
 TERYL: ...but found out later that that wasn't true. 
 WINFREY: That that wasn't true. So when he was trying to 
 leave, though, I heard you grabbed him or something? 
 Is that true? 
 TERYL: I grabbed his ankles and he dragged me down 
 the hallway. And I didn't want him to leave because... 
 WINFREY: This was at the same day? 
 TERYL: This was later on, actually. 
 WINFREY: Yeah. 
 TERYL: It was about a month later. 
 WINFREY: Yeah. Mm-hmm. 
 TERYL: We tried to work things out. 
 I thought we were working things out, and found out again 
 it was still going on. I held on to him because he really 
 represented my dreams, my life. He was a part of me. 
 And for him to leave, it was like my life was ending. 
 WINFREY: Did he leave while you were still pregnant? 
 TERYL: Yes. 
 WINFREY: Yeah. And did you--I understand you wrote the 
 mistress, like, a long letter. 
 TERYL: Yes. 
 WINFREY: Asking the mistress to do what? 
 TERYL: I have it right here. 
 WINFREY: Okay. 
 TERYL: It says, what can I possibly say to the woman who 
 has aided in the demise of my life? I wish I could stand 
 in front of you to voice these thoughts so you could see 
 the real person in me, the real tears that fall, 
 and the real pain I have endured, to look me straight 
 in the eyes and try to convince me that you are the better 
 woman, to proudly admit that you are the woman who robbed 
 me of a sweet, enchanted and blessed marriage. 
 At what point does it become right to take away a woman's 
 husband? At what point do you justify hurting another 
 human being beyond comprehension? Was the battle worth it? 
 And what about the children? All the security and comfort 
 they had in a stable household has been taken from them. 
 WINFREY: Hmm. 
 TERYL: As a woman, I can't possibly understand how you are 
 comfortable with completely tearing apart our family. 
 If your relationship with a married man is all you've 
 ever dreamt for yourself, then you haven't set your 
 aspirations high enough. You are worth more than a man 
 who would leave his entire family and his entire life. 
 WINFREY: Hmm. 
  [APPLAUSE] 
 WINFREY: Well said. And so why was he cheating? 
 And was this the first time? 
 TERYL: It was the first time. 
 WINFREY: That he told you? 
 TERYL: That I know of, but I'm fairly certain. He... 
 WINFREY: How could it be the first time, though, 
 if you're willing to leave your whole family? 
 How could that be the first time, though? 
 TERYL: Well... 
 WINFREY: Teryl? 
 TERYL: ...he was the worship pastor of our church. 
 TERYL: And I think, altogether, it was very difficult for 
 him to return to that life. And I think it was difficult 
 for him to face all those people that he was accountable to. 
 WINFREY: Mm-hmm. As the worship pastor. 
 TERYL: Right. 
 WINFREY: Yeah. And so now you have all the children. 
 TERYL: I do. I have--we have joint custody. 
 WINFREY: And the children are how old? 
 TERYL: Ten, six, three, and seven months. 
 WINFREY: Wow. That is devastating. 
 TERYL: Yes. 
 WINFREY: Yeah. 
 TERYL: Very devastating. 
 WINFREY: And how have you gotten through it? 
 TERYL: My strength is solely because of God. 
 [APPLAUSE] 
 WINFREY: But this is the thing. All right. 
 I think the other woman certainly has her role in it, 
 but ultimately it was his choice. 
 TERYL: Mm-hmm. 
 WINFREY: He decided to leave you and his family... 
 TERYL: Right. 
 WINFREY: ...and his baby that was coming. You know, 
 she--this is America. She didn't put a, you know, 
 a noose around his neck. She didn't, you know, 
 voodoo him or whatever. 
 TERYL: Right. 
 WINFREY: And so how--you know, I think that's a really 
 impassioned letter to write to the other woman. 
 But what responsibility does he hold in all of this? 
 TERYL: It's definitely his choice. He made the choice, 
 it was his mistake, and I hold him just as responsible. 
 It's hard to put myself in her shoes because 
 I am a woman and she's a woman... 
 WINFREY: Hmm. 
 TERYL: ...and I can't imagine trying to do that to a family. 
 WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Were you willing to forgive him and 
 then go on with the marriage? 
 TERYL: Yes. 
 WINFREY: Were you willing to do that? 
 TERYL: Yes. 
 WINFREY: Yeah. 
 TERYL: I was going to stay in it until I knew it was over. 
 WINFREY: That's why you were holding on to him as he's 
 dragging you--you were holding on to his heels. 
 TERYL: Right. 
 WINFREY: Yeah. That's always a sad situation, isn't it? 
 Yeah. You look back on that time, and don't you wish 
 you'd have gotten up, at least, 
 and let him walk out the door. Yeah. 
 Coming up, a betrayed wife sued her husband's 
 mistress and won. She's here to talk about that. 
 [APPLAUSE] 
 MUSIC
  MUSIC
  WINFREY: When Candi Wagner discovered that her husband 
 was cheating, she took the steamy love letters and 
 sexy photos that the other woman had sent him and 
 headed to her lawyer. And Candi sued her husband's mistress, 
 which is something I hadn't heard of, charging her with 
 alienation of affection. She won and was awarded $500,000. 
 [CHEERS AND APPLAUSE] 
 WINFREY: And ultimately settled for $50,000. Why? 
 CANDI: Oh, it went to appeal and I decided at that 
 point just to put it behind us... 
 WINFREY: Uh-huh. 
 CANDI: ...completely. 
 WINFREY: Yeah. But why choose to sue the mistress 
 and not your husband? 
 CANDI: Well, unfortunately, you can't sue the husband. 
 Most states have no-fault divorce. 
 And you just have to pursue that. 
 And then I think, at the time, I felt so humiliated 
 and devastated. I felt--it looked like an opportunity 
 for redemption, in a way... 
 WINFREY: Mm-hmm. 
 CANDI: ...just to stand up for myself and my family 
 and also sort of make... 
  WINFREY: Because she actively pursued him, 
 is what you're saying. 
 CANDI: She actively pursued him. 
 WINFREY: And what you had was the evidence of her... 
  CANDI: I had... 
 WINFREY: She's sending nude photos and things? 
 CANDI: Well, racy photos. 
 WINFREY: Scantily clad. 
 CANDI: Yes. Yes. 
 WINFREY: Yeah. 
  CANDI: But to his place of work. 
 WINFREY: And letters? 
 CANDI: Cards and letters. 
 WINFREY: Saying what? 
 CANDI: I think they first met in a bar out of town 
 and nothing happened, but she chose to send him a 
 Christmas card. And he obviously bit, so she kept writing. 
 And initially, she would say things like, 
 I know you're married with three children and we can 
 just be friends, but, you know, I really enjoyed meeting you. 
 And then they became more graphic, that she could fly to 
 our town any time, and then describing sexual acts she'd 
 like to perform if only they could be together. 
 And it took months... 
 WINFREY: How did you get all these letters? 
 CANDI: I found out from a friend of a friend that they 
 were hidden in his workplace. In a little cubby 
 in the wall is where I found them. 
 [LAUGHTER] 
  WINFREY: Hmm. Look at her beaming. I found them. 
 [LAUGHTER] 
 WINFREY: But isn't that--I mean, you say this now. 
 I mean, I know that the sense of betrayal is devastating, 
 you know? That maybe you can smile here today, 
 but when you first recognized that you'd been betrayed, 
 it's devastating. 
 CANDI: Yeah, this was a long road to get to this place. 
 WINFREY: Yeah. To get to this place. 
 And you're in a better place now. 
 CATHERINE: Yeah. 
 WINFREY: Yeah. 
 CATHERINE: Much better. 
 WINFREY: You said happily divorced. 
 CATHERINE: Happily divorced. 
 WINFREY: Yeah. It hasn't been that long for you, though. 
 What place are you in, Teryl? 
 TERYL: I'm still healing. It's been a long process. 
 WINFREY: Does he still have a relationship with your children? 
 TERYL: He does. 
 WINFREY: Mm-hmm. 
 TERYL: He does, and he takes his time with them 
 and he does a good job with them. And I'm thankful for that. 
 WINFREY: We'll be right back. 
 [MUSIC]
 [MUSIC]
 WINFREY: Well, at the beginning of the show, 
 I came out of the audience and there was this guy-- 
 I'm changing the subject now--there was this--there are-- 
 first of all, Gayle is on the line. 
 GAYLE KING: Hello. 
 [CHEERS AND APPLAUSE] 
 WINFREY: Gayle? Gayle who was on--doing "The Gayle King Show" 
 on XM Radio. I don't know if you all know Gayle has a show 
 on XM Radio. So she got to... 
 KING: I know. Oprah, I was taping the show and they said, 
 you know, Oprah wants to call you on the air. 
 And I said okay. And I looked at the subject matter today 
 and it just says, "The Other Woman." I go, I don't have 
 nothing to contribute to that conversation. 
 [LAUGHTER] 
 KING: I don't know why Oprah's calling me about that. 
 WINFREY: That's not what I'm calling you for. 
 KING: Okay. 
 WINFREY: I'm calling you for-- 
 when I walked out to the audience today, there were all 
 of these black men. There are like 12 black men in the 
 audience, which is highly unusual, which is, you know--every 
 now and then, you see a sprinkling of a few men. Just a few. 
 KING: Me like, me like. 
 WINFREY: Okay. 
 [LAUGHTER] 
 WINFREY: Okay. So I asked them all were they a club. 
 And this one gentleman said that he was here, 'cause he 
 thought you were gonna be here. But, well, you should see... 
 KING: Oh... 
 WINFREY: Wait a minute, Gayle... 
 KING: Darn. 
 [LAUGHTER] 
 KING: Oh, god. 
 WINFREY: Okay. So this gentleman is here. What's your name? 
 DEAN: My name is Dean. 
 WINFREY: Dean. 
 DEAN: Yes. 
 WINFREY: Who wanted to know if you were here, 
 because you were coming to see Gayle? 
 DEAN: Yes. 
 [LAUGHTER] 
 KING: Hi, Dean. 
 DEAN: I'm in love with Gayle. 
 [LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE] 
 WINFREY: You're in love with Gayle. 
 DEAN: Yes. 
 WINFREY: He's--and the whole time, he hasn't paid any 
 attention to what we're talking about. 
 [LAUGHTER] 
 WINFREY: So Gayle. 
 KING: But you know what I think is interesting about this, 
 Oprah? You must see something about Dean, 
 because you wouldn't call me.  
 [CHEERS AND APPLAUSE] 
 [LAUGHTER] 
 WINFREY: Okay. 
 KING: That's what I know about my friend. 
 You would not be calling. 
 WINFREY: No. I'm calling you, 'cause Dean said he wanted 
 to meet you, and I just wanted to have you all-- 
 let him hear your voice. That's why I'm doing that. 
  KING: No, honey. 
 WINFREY: No. 
 KING: You would not be making no introductions 
 if you're not interested. 
 [LAUGHTER] 
 WINFREY: No, I'm not saying anything. 
 No, frankly, I said to Dean--Dean, what did I say to you 
 earlier? I think you're a little young. 
 DEAN: No. I'm perfect for her. 
  [LAUGHTER] 
 WINFREY: How old are you? 
 KING: Oprah, Oprah, hush. Young is good. 
 [LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE] 
 WINFREY: All right. I just want you to know that 
 that was going on. 
 KING: No. But he really said that out loud? 
 WINFREY: Yeah, he's--he said... 
 KING: That is so nice. 
 WINFREY: And all of his friends are--they're just sitting 
 here grinning and they don't know what's happening. 
 [LAUGHTER] 
 WINFREY: They came. They came. But you know how 
 unusual it is, you know... 
 KING: Yes. 
 WINFREY: But it's rare to see men in the audience period. 
 KING: Yes. 
 WINFREY: And I walked out and there's this whole row of 
 brothers. I wanted to know, was there a brothers convention... 
 [LAUGHTER] 
 WINFREY: ...or whatever. 
 And I--and there's 12 of them to choose from. 
 So I wish you were here today. But we're out of time. 
 KING: I do too. 
 WINFREY: We're out of time. All right. 
 KING: Wait, wait, wait. 
 WINFREY: What? No. Bye. 
 KING: Bye. 
 WINFREY: Get off the... 
 KING: Bye, Dean. 
 WINFREY: Bye. 
 DEAN: I love you. 
  [LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE] 
 WINFREY: Thanks for watching. 
   [MUSIC AND APPLAUSE] 
