Welcome to the show.
Hi. I'm very happy to be here.
You know what-what gets me is
you're a hugger,
and I'm not used to hugging
people who are taller than me.
-(gasps) -I don't know
where to place myself
in a taller-person hug.
It is kind of awkward, 'cause
you get the arm sandwich moment.
Yeah, but I'm... 'Cause I'm used
to, like, tall hug.
-I know how to hug down.
-Right.
And then, like, you're the first
person I've hugged
who's taller than me,
and I don't know how
to engage in that hug at all.
Yeah. I did have a growth spurt,
like, you know,
20 minutes ago, to be fair.
-Okay. Okay...
-It's artificial.
-(laughter)
-Welcome to the show.
Um, and congratulations
on your book--
 Sissy:
 A Coming-of-Gender Story. -Mm.
Let's first talk
about the title.
I mean, 
 Sissy would seem like the title
that everybody would want
to stay away from,
because that's a derogatory term
many people have used
-to describe people
who are queer... -Mm.
gender non-conforming,
etcetera, etcetera.
And yet, in the book,
you talk about how,
through self-love,
you've learned
to own these titles
as badges of pride.
What does that mean?
Yeah, well, it's funny,
because in some ways,
"sissy" was the first word
that I had
to even name my difference.
You know, I didn't know the word
"transgender" when I was a kid.
-I didn't even know
the word "gay"... -Right.
as early as I knew
that sissies--
people who are gender
different-- was the thing.
Um, and so, the whole point
of this book for me is
to kind of excavate the story
of my gender
and really not take any part
of it for granted.
And so, the naming it Sissy is
about reclaiming my childhood
-for myself.
-Mm-hmm.
You know what I mean?
And-and learning
to, uh, kind of, like,
snatch back the power
from people who try to be, like,
"Oh, you shouldn't
be like that."
And you just kind of be like,
"Well, I mean,
"if you think you're gonna,
like, tease me with that name,
like, it's the title of my damn
book now, so, sorry."
(applause and cheering)
Like, oops. (laughs)
One thing I really enjoyed
about this book was the way
you tackled conversations
in and around being trans,
being gay,
being gender non-conforming.
Because we cannot deny
that in society
it is a difficult topic
to broach, because A:
a lot of the time we don't
even know where to begin.
-Right.
-Right? Everyone's afraid
of stepping on a landmine
somewhere.
And then, for some people, it
just makes them uncomfortable,
-because they've been taught
certain things growing up. -Mm.
Why did you feel
like humor needs
to be part of the conversation?
Why do you say that people
shouldn't take it as seriously?
Like, they should respect it,
but they should be able
to laugh and joke about gender.
That seems like a...
a controversial thing to say.
Right. Well, in the process
of writing this book,
and also in the process
of promoting it,
I feel like I've learned
a new identity for myself,
which I didn't realize
was so necessary.
But I'm gender chill, y'all.
You know what I mean?
Like, ev... Like, I...
'Cause I don't want
to live in a world...
Like, I want to think about
what is the future
-we want to build
for trans folks? -Right.
Right. What is the future
that I want to live in?
And the future I want to live in
is not some future
where, like, you know,
there's no gender,
and everyone wears, like,
grey hoodies and sweatshirts...
-Yes. -and, like, you know,
shaves their head,
and, like, whatever.
Like, that's not the world
I want to live in.
I want to live in a world where
gender is this playful thing,
where there's no patriarchy,
no misogyny,
none of the things
that make gender suck,
-um, and only the things
that make gender great. -Right.
I want it to feel like
a dress-up bin, you know?
And, like, some kids, you know,
don't even play dress-up
but, like, watch oth...
they go, you know, color,
-Yes. -and then some children--
I don't know who--
like, you know, go in
the dress-up bin and are like,
"Um, how much
can I put on my body
-and still stand up?"
-Right. And that's something...
that's something you actually
encourage in the book,
which I found
really interesting.
You said one of the things
that you think
could help us in society
is if people experimented more
with their gender, so people
going out there and dressing
in clothes that
they wouldn't normally...
You said, for instance,
everybody should try on
a three-piece suit,
regardless of their gender,
-just try it on
and see how it feels. -Yeah.
Why do you think
that's so important?
Well, the... one of the myths,
I think, of the way
that the trans movement
has done our messaging
is the idea that, like, oh,
cis people have a stable gender.
You know, like,
people who aren't transgender
have a gender that's simple.
I'm like, girl,
no one has a simple gender.
That's a silly idea.
Um, and more importantly,
everyone should try out
new things.
You know, we grow up in a world,
or at least most of us
grow up in a world,
where our gender possibilities
are shut down
-from the moment we're children.
-Right.
And I think it is...
it is everyone's responsibility
and everyone's opportunity
to explore, um,
what else that could look like.
Why do you think people
are so afraid of it, though,
and-and so hateful towards it?
Because, I mean, in my world,
I've always gone,
if somebody's not hurting me or
it's not hurting other people,
why does it affect you?
But there are people
who are vehemently opposed
to everything that you
represent as a human being.
Have you ever engaged
with somebody like that,
and have you ever figured out
why people are so against it?
Yeah. I have a lot
of empathy, actually,
for people who are
really uncomfortable around me,
or who, you know,
stigmatize trans folks,
or who, you know, just,
like, plain straight-up hate,
you know,
gender-nonconforming people,
and the reason I have empathy
is because it's, like,
when someone catcalls me
in the street,
you know, when someone,
you know, like, is violent
towards trans folks,
I'm just like,
"Darling,
your trauma is showing."
You know? Like, the only reason
that you would lash out
against a trans person is
because you've been traumatized
on the basis
of your gender, too.
You know, that, like, something
about your gender went wrong,
or someone told you
that you couldn't cry
when you were a child,
or someone told you
that this is how you had to be,
and you see someone, like moi,
with such freedom, and you
don't know how to handle it.
(cheering, applause)
Um, to that effect...
-I brought you a little present.
-You brought me a present?
-Yes. So, I introduced a term...
-Oh, you brought me
-a little bag. I love bags!
-Yes, a little baggie.
-I got a bag! I love bags!
-A little gift bag.
She always leave a party
giving people gift bags.
Um, so, back in the... when
we talked in the dressing room,
-Yes.
-I taught you a term.
-Yes. -Uh, the term
is "gender-(bleep)."
All right. I have
never heard of that before.
Yeah, and it's not like
it's not what it sounds like.
It's, like,
playing with your gender
and having a damn good time.
Um, and so I brought you
some clip-on earrings.
-Oh, wow. -Because
I figured you could use...
-So I get to wear these?
-Yeah. So...
You know what kills me with
clip-ons all the time is they
-give me headaches. -But these
ones aren't tight, I promise.
-Are you sure?
-They're good ones. No, th...
'Cause a lot of the time
they'll, like,
-give you a headache...
-No, they're gentle.
-(laughter, cheering)
-Yes.
-(cheering)
-Look at that! Wow.
Trevor, this is... this is...
I mean, like, I don't want to...
I don't want to, like,
be your stylist right now,
and I don't want to, like,
you know, but I just...
this is a look.
You realize
this is a look, right?
You know what's
interesting for me...
to your ideas of gender
and how we identify it
and what signifies gender
around the world is,
in South Africa
and in many African cultures,
men will wear earrings like this
-and, to your point,
it doesn't... -Mm.
like, no one would be like,
"Oh, that man is not man"
or "is..."
Do you get what I'm saying?
-Yeah. -It's funny,
'cause like this, I'm just like,
"I, I look traditional
right now. I could be..."
-Yes. -Like, that's
what I'm thinking right now.
-Right. -Like,
if my grandmother saw this,
she'd be like, "Finally!
-Hey! -He's connecting
with his roots!"
-Yes! -Thank you so much
for being on the show.
-Of course.
-It's a really beautiful book
-(cheering)
-that talks about gender
in a really honest
and funny way.
 Sissy is available now.
Jacob Tobia, everybody.
