

Aptavani 13

Volume 1

Gnani Purush Dadashri

Shuddha Anami

Copyright 2010 by Shuddha Anami

Smashwords Edition

#  Word from the Translator:

Please note that Gnani Purush Dadashri never wrote a word for any book. This book is a compilation of his spoken words in satsang, and Shuddha Anami is a translator within a collective, of the words spoken in Gujarati. Shuddha has been sharing the English translations of the words of Gnani Purush Dadashri on the Internet since 1994.

Gnani or Jnani is the One who has known, is in the experience of, the eternal Self. Purush means the Self. Akram Vignan means that which is attained without doing anything, and the science behind this. A gentleman by the name of Ambalal M. Patel became a Gnani Purush in June 1958. This happened spontaneously within him. The absolute light of the Self prevailed in him from that time. In that state of the absolute Self, he became the instrument for the salvation of the world. The words that came out through his medium have become words that are now liberating hundreds of thousands of human beings who were seeking meaningful solutions for their pains. These satsang sessions of the Gnani Purush happened in Gujarati and were carefully preserved and are presented as they are, in many different languages. They are all in the form of questions and answers from Gnani Purush Dadashri.

#  After Self-realization

The _Gnan Vidhi_ of the _Gnani Purush_ separates the Self from the self. The reader is requested to allow for the use of capital letters, in the middle of sentences in the book, which have been used frequently for ease of understanding the message of the _Gnani Purush._ The small 's' is the self or the worldly interacting self, where the reader has to introduce one's own worldly name. The 'S' is used to denote the awakened Self after the _Gnan Vidhi_ or the absolute Self. Similarly, the small 'y' is used for the worldly self, and the 'Y' for 'You' is for the awakened One. The small 'v' is for the vision through the worldly eyes or the physical eyes whereas the 'V' is for the Vision of the awakened One as the Self. In the same vein, the words that are meant to convey the realm and domain of the awakened Self have capital use e.g. 'Knower' or 'Seer' or 'Conduct' versus knower, seer, conduct as the self. Please note that the original Gujarati book does not have such differentiation, and thus requires a special inner view while reading this book. This differentiation presented in the English versions has been found very useful by the readers of previous _Aptavanis_ , and hence is continued here.

Please note that the above use of capital letter does not apply to the statements or questions made by the questioner in the following book, because the view of the questioner is not apparent in the questioning process.

This first of two volumes of Aptavani 13 is for _Mahatmas -_ those who have attained the Self through the _Akram Path -_ and it will lead to the absolute Self. The book will also help others understand the science of karma and the science of _prakruti_ – the non-Self complex. Aptavani 13 was compiled and first published by _Atmagnani_ Dr. Niruben Amin, in Gujarati in July 2002. The original versions in Gujarati contain a précis written by Dr. Niruben of the entire body of the original satsang with Gnani Purush Dadashri, and is not presented in this version of Aptavani 13.

Shuddha Anami

November 21 2015

New York.

www.dadashri.org

**Table of Contents**

Word from the Translator:

After Self-realization

[1.1]

How is Prakruti Formed?

Subtle Science of Prakruti

'Gnan', in Swabhaav, in Vibhaav

Way of Bringing About the Final Settlement

Is Prakruti Jada or Chetan?

Who is the Doer of Prakruti?

Difference Between Prakruti and Nature

Relation Between Prakruti and the Self

[1.2]

Prakruti in the Form of Result

Do Prakruti and Life Leave Together?

One Dances to the Tune of Prakruti

Prakruti Forces one to do...

Relation between Swasatta and Parsatta

Prakruti is Independent at the Time of Liberation

Both Behave According to Their Nature

Freedom and Dependency of the Prakruti

Prakruti is not to be Changed, Change its Cause

On What Basis can Purushartha Happen?

Cause-effect Nature of Prakruti

Who has Attachment-Abhorrence in This?

Prakruti, Dependent on ego or Vyavasthit?

Prakruti is Like a Ready Fireworks

[1.3]

Prakruti Unfolds as it was Bound

Prakruti has Attraction

How Will Prakruti get Spent?

No Changes in the Style of Prakruti

Awareness Brings Prakruti Within its Regularity.

Awareness in Front of Prakruti

[1.4]

See Prakruti as Flawless

Who is at Fault in This?

How can Prakruti be Changed?

It Happens According to the Prakruti

As Many Layers of Prakruti as the Variety of Vikalp

Energy Increases as the Prakruti Reverts to Naturalness

From Lack of Control

Eventually Both are Vitarag

Gnani Changes Prakruti Like This

Problem is not of the Mistake, Problem is of the Ignorance

The Vision of the Self Makes Even a Tiger Non-violent

The Flawless Vision of the Gnani

Know the Fault, but do not Consider him to be Faulty

The Real Culprit got Caught

[1.5]

Different Natures of Prakruti

Path of Moksha With Only one Sentence

That is why Attributes of Prakruti are Born

The Main Origin of Attributes of Prakruti

Complete Understanding of Prakruti

Natural Repair in Absence of Ownership

Prakruti Will Take Best Care of Body

Karma Troublesome and Prakruti Helpful

[1.6]

Is it Possible to Attain Control Over Prakruti?

Controlling is a Mistake

Control an Untimely Bomb?

Will the Result of Gnan Come in This Life or the Next?

Nigraha kim Karishyati

Habits of Prakruti Will not Leave Quickly

Against Prakruti Prone to Addiction

Strong Intent Changes the new Prakruti

Can One's Nature Change in This Very Life?

Prakruti can Change with Gnan

How is one to See his Prakruti?

Against the Prakruti Which Does not Respect any Boundary

Settle the Prakruti With Equanimity

Prakruti Becomes Utterly Soft with Gnan

Live and Life-less Prakruti

Nature is of Prakruti, and Doership is of the self

If You 'See' Then You are the Boss and if You do not 'See' then Prakruti is the Boss!

Know Also an Awkward Prakruti

This is the Big Garbage That Hinders

Prakruti Dissolves in Samayik

[1.7]

Purify Prakruti This way...

Prakruti Writes and Purush Erases

Against Angry Prakruti

One who is Aware Infront of Prakruti is a Gnani

Tubers of Prakruti Obstruct Light of Gnan

Stop, not through pressure but through understanding

Do not believe sweetness in discharge prakruti

Pardon the Prakruti

Be Glad Where you can see the Mistakes

The Gnan or the Gnani, Removes Prakruti.

The Nature to Become Involved in Prakruti and Prakruti are one

Prakruti will ultimately show Godly qualities

Ultimately Even Prakruti Becomes Like God

Who Comes First in Naturalness?

Interference Creates Unnaturalness

[1.8]

Knower-Seer of Prakruti

Awareness Increases with Agna and Satsang

Prakruti's Gneyas subtle, subtler...

Saiyam Means not to Saiyam Means not to Become one With Prakruti

Prakruti Makes one Dance

After Doership is Gone Divine Karma Remain

Against the Force of the Prakruti...

The One who Knows the Nature of the Prakruti is the Knower

Exact Knowing-Seeing Infront of Prakruti

Main Camera Takes the Picture of the Prakruti

Nature of the Prakruti

[1.9]

From Pure Self to Absolute Self

Energy, of Purush and Prakruti

Gnani is Sitting in the Company of the Eternal

Began the Union with God

Purush is Antaratma and Purshottam is Paramatma

[1.10]

One who Constinuously Sees Prakruti is Paramatma

There is Distinct Separation in the Individual Knowledge of the two

Vision of the Self and the Vision of the Flawless

Just See the Flawlessness of the Prakruti

That is the Final Worship of the Self

The Constant Seer of the Prakruti is Paramatma

This is how 'I-ness' Dissolves

Clear Science of Prakruti Opened up

[2.1]

Dravyakarma

Living Beings Bound by Three Karma

Dravyakarma are Divided Into Eight Kinds

Illusion Exists due to the 'Eye-glasses'

Everything Appears 'Wrong' due to the Eyeglasses

What are these eight karmas?

Dravyakarma Means Sanchit Karma

[2.2]

Gnanavaran Karma

Analogy Example of Dravyakarma

Gnanavaran Karma Prevents Gnan From Manifesting

Gnanavaran Obstructs Thus

This is Going the way of Wrong Understanding...

Avarans Increased in Locations of Religion

That Indeed is the Huge Gnanavaran

Difference between Gnanavaran and aGnan

[2.3]

Darshanavaran Karma

This is how Both are Bound

Sooj is Darshan

Eventually all Veils are Lifted Away From Darshan

Gnan Vidhi Removes the Veil Over Darshan

[2.4]

Mohaniya Karma

I-ness is Mohaniya Karma

The Self is Forgotten due to Mohaniyakarma

Main cause is Moha

What Makes one Deluded is Moha

One had Filled in Heavy Mohaniyakarma

It is the King of Infinite Karma

Difference Between Darshanavaran and Darshanmohaniya

How Much Charge Karma in Akram?

[2.5]

Antarayakarma

Obstacle Karma

Despite Having it, it Cannot be Enjoyed, That is Antaraya

This is how Antaraya are Created

Do Pratikraman the Moment an Obstacle Happens

Avaran and Antaraya

This Causes Antaraya Against Eating Food

Ego of Intellect Creates Obstacles

One is the Owner of the Universe but...

Obstacles in Taking Medicine or in Thinking About it?

Secret of Dada's Deafness

Obstacles to Use and Repeated Use

Obstacle Against Benefit

Obstacles Against Profit and Energy

What Destroys Antarayakarma?

In the Ritual Worship of Antarayakarma, one Binds Gnanantaraya

Obstacles Against Life Span

Obstacles Against Religion

Negative Attitude Towards Gnan Also Causes Obstacles

This is how Obstacles Puzzles one

This is how Obstacles Have Been Created Against the Path of Moksha

Intent of Compassion for the Salvation of the World

Heavy Antarayas Prevent Meeting a Gnani Purush

Pratikraman for Obstacles

Obstacles to Gnan-Darshan Arise Thus

Obstacles Against Expression in Conduct

Gnan is Attained, if Obstacle is Destroyed

Cannot Destroy Idols or Pictures

Nischaya Breaks the Threads of Obstacles

Obstacles Against Satsang

Desire has Obstructed the Relative Expression of Energies of the absolute Self

Obstacles due to no Determination; no Obstacles due to Determination

Difference between Nischaya and Desire

Have Obstacles to Eating Ever Occurred?

Gnani is in Antaraya-free State

That is how the Energies of the Self Manifest

[2.6]

Vedaniyakarma

Pain-pleasure experience

Interval Between two Pains is Pleasure

Do not Suffer, Know

There is Beliefvedana, not Gnanvedana

Dada's Close Observation Within

Lord Mahavit Also had Ashata Vedaniya

Dada at the Time of Unfolding of Vedaniya Karma

'You' Know Your Suffering

Vedaniya Does not Touch the one who is Absolutely Independent

[2.7]

Naamkarma

Not Chitragupta but the Secret of Naamkarma

Even the Body is due to Naamrupa Karma

What Amazing Naamkarma of Lord Mahavir

Aadeya-Anadaya Naamkarma

Yash-Upyash Naamkarma

Fame and Defame Based on What?

Great Karma With Intent of Salvation of the World

That was Dada's Naamkarma

[2.8]

Gotrakarma

Lokpujya, Loknindya Gotra

Bhaavkarma Charged Instantly Through Egoism of High Status

One who is not Lokanindya is Considered Lokapujya in This era

Tirthankara Gotra Bound Through Darshan Only

[2.9]

Ayushyakarma

What makes one bound in the body is ayushyakarma

The Body Dies, not You

Long or Short Life Based on Merit Karma

Will Power is a Karma Effect

Death is the Final Balance of all Karma

Lifespan Depends on Number of Breaths

Lifespan of Good People

Punyai of the World is not Ready, Therefore Gnani's Life is Short

Dada's Lifespan

Now the Lifespan of People Have Increased

All Eight Karma are Bound Every Moment

Principle of Binding Ayushya

Ayushya of one With Matrubhaav is Longer

[2.10]

Ghati-Aghati Karma

Dravyakarma is Constantly Dissolving

Ghati in the of a Veil and Aghati in the form of Body

Only Ghati Karma Remain to be Settled

Dravyakarma of Tirthankaras

When all Knowledge Arises Within, The Gnanipada is Attained

Ghatikarma Destroyed with Shukladhyan

Moha is the Main Root

Karma Bound Verily Through Kashaya

Ekavtari State Through Akram Gnan

All that Remains now is Charitramoha

Only Dravyakarma That Remains is of the Body

That is When Gnan is Attained

Dada Gives Complete Solution

[2.11]

Bhaavkarma

Bhaavkarma Happens as a Result of Dravyakarma

Kashaya Means Bhaavkarma

Difference Between Bhaav, Bhaavna and Bhaavkarma

Even Gnani has Desire That is Dying

Bhaav Will Improve Both Lives

With 'I am Shuddhatma', Bhaavkarma Goes Away

Bhaavkarma bound through doership

[2.12]

Dravyakarma + Bhaavkarma

Relation Between Bhaavkarma and Dravyakarma

Secret About why Impurity Touches the Self

Belief Changed With Pressure of Circumstances

Inspiration is of Power Chetan –the 'Energized' Self

Bhaavkarma is the Imagination of the 'self'

Pudgal Arose Based on the Intent-Imagination

Nondoer With Gnan, Doer with aGnan

Through 'it Happens' one is the 'Doer' of Dravyakarma

Electrical Body and Kashaya

The Candle Burns and the wax Deposits

Bhaavkarma Results From Dravyakarma

Dravyabandha-Bhaavbandha

Mistake is Only of the Vision

Lingadeha is Bhaavkarma

When Will That Recurrant Cycle of Bondage Break?

Constant Natural Compassion

[2.13]

Nokarma

No Obstruction if There is Gnan

Nokarma is Experienced Through Senses

Every activity is nokarma

Because You are not the Doer

All Charitramoha are Nokarma

Akram Path : Kramic path

Understanding of Nokashaya

Prarabdha is Indeed Nokarma

Nokarma Means Akarma

[2.14]

Dravykarma + Bhaavkarma + Nokarma

How Much Doership is There in These Three Karma?

Bhaavkarma Results in Dravyakarma and Nokarma

Bhaavkarma is not Under one's Control

Only the Vision has Changed

Only Tirthankaras can see Dravyakarma

Subtle Difference Between Bhaavkarma and Nokarma

If You do not Become the Owner You Become Free From Karma

All the Activities of the Body are Nokarma

Filled Stock is Dravyakarma, its Expression is Nokarma

Vishrasa, Prayogsa, Mishrasa

Wrong Vision Causes Bhaavkarma

Equanimity Stops Charging Karma

Ego Wears the Yellow Eyeglasses

Vision Changed Through Dravyakarma

Charging Happens When Bhaav and Main Vision is Spoilt

Keep in Awareness, the 'Glasses', Your State, and the External

Surrendered the Living, and the Lifeless Remains

Bhaavkarma Goes Away Through Vignan

[3.1]

'There is Something' is Darshan, 'This is it' is Gnan

Darshan and Gnan, Understanding Through Intellect

There is no Difference in Them

Upon Specific Thinking That Which is Seen Becomes Gneya

Seen and Known; Both Relative

Eventually it is all one

Constant Conviction of the Self is Kshayik Samkit

How Knowledge or Experiece Comes From Understanding

[3.2]

Seeing Generally, Knowing Specifically

Details of Darshan-Gnan

Vitaragta With General Gnan

Dwelling Only in the Self

It Takes Time for it to be Decided

KevalGnan has Halted

How Subtle the Understanding of the Tirthankars

[4]

Gnata-Drashta, Gnayak

Knower-Seer Nature of the Self

The Self has Only Gnankriya and Darshankriya

Gnandhara-Kriyadhara Both run Separately

Every Effect Falls off for the Gnani

Seeing is Swabhaav, Walking is Vibhaav

Is There any Difference in 'Seeing'?

Exact Understanding of Knower-Seer

The Knower is Beyond the Senses

Knower does not 'do', and doer does not Know

Who is the Witness?

That is When 'self' Becomes the Knower

Two forms of gneya

Real, gneya or Gnata?

Knower is Always Flawless

State of Gnani From a Fraction to Complete

The Discharge of a Mahatma is Unique

Dada is Only as Gnani Purush During Vidhi

Poised as the Self, Restless in Situations

All the Layers of Karma Effect Leave by Seeing

Keep 'Seeing' the Galan

Knower is the Solid Entity of the Self Only

Inside and Outside Brahmand?

Relationship of Gneya and Gnata

Constant Knower Seer is Indeed KevalGnan

Knower-Seer Does not Have any Problem

The Self Does not Need Anyone

One who Remains Knower-Seer is Indeed Vitarag

Knowing-Seeing the Antahkaran is Higher

Relation of the Self With the Destructible World

This is how the Link of Knower-Seer Remains

See the Waves of the Mind Like a Movie

One who Knows the Self as the Self is Absolutely Free

Drashya ad Drashta are Always Separate

Only Knower-Seer is considerd Gnayak

Gnayakbhaav is the Final View

Gnayak Does not Have Association with Memory

Through Gnayakbhaav Purity Happens

Constant Knowing is Indeed the Paramatma

[5]

Absolute Through Naturalness of the Self and the non-Self

Cessation of Interference is Indeed Naturalness

Dada's Interference to Remove Interference

The Self and Prakruti are Sahaj, Worldly Interacting self is Asahaj

Full enlightenment halted because of ego

Awareness Increases by Asking for Energies

Retract the Interference

Filled Stock Will Discharge Without Fail

That is When the Visa for Moksha is There

Obstructions Leave by Seeing

Naturalness Exists Where There is no Attachment-Abhorrence

Should one get rid of Interference or Remain Separate?

Interference Removes Interference

Knowing-Seeing Stops Interference

Who is the 'I'?

Oneness Believed by the ego

That is When it is Called Natural

When is it a Pure Worldly Interaction?

Naturalness is Where There is no Interference

Body by Nature is Effective

Natural Means Effort-free State

Cause-Effect go Away Where Where is Naturalness

There is no Knowledge of the Self, Where There is 'Doing'

Effort Pushes Sahajta Away

Naturalness Verily Means the Effortless State

Gnani is Eternally in Effortless State

Dadashri's Unique Naturalness

Understanding Vyavasthit Gives Rise to Naturalness

Devine Energy of the Self Manifests From Naturalness

Not the Activity but Restlessness in it, Binds Karma

Are you in a Hurry? Then Let go of all Possessions

How can one Remain Sahaj?

In the Ultimate State all Activity Without Effort

In the Effort to Attain the Natural State...

One Becomes Natural by Seeing the Natural One

[6[

See Just one Pudgal

The Pudgal Dances and the Self Sees!

See first and then Know

Seeing Leads to Purity

Keep Reading Your own Book

After Right Vision, There is Only Discharge

What Does one Pudgal Mean?

Ultimately Only This Exclusive Goal

Saw Infinite Gneyas in one Pudgal

This is Lord Mahavir's Method

[7]

Knower of the Seer-Knower

Gnayakbhaav: Mishrabhaav

Knower-Seer, Through Intellect or the Self

Seer of Pudgal is Pragnya

That Which Shows is Pragnya

Seer of Even the seer

Whose Upyoga is in the Middle?

Follow the Five Agnas to Attain the Absolute State

The Self Means the Light of Absolute Knowledge

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**Aptavani 13 Purvardha**

Aptavani 13 Volume 1 of 2 Volumes

#  [1.1]

#  How is Prakruti Formed?

##  Subtle Science of Prakruti

**Questioner** : Dada, what is _prakruti_?

**Dadashri** : _Prakruti_ means that which was formed through the false projection of the self. One keeps saying, 'I am Chandubhai, I am Chandubhai ( _the reader should substitute his name for Chandubhai_ )', and then he says, 'I did it'. That indeed is considerd instilling of life ( _pratishtha_ ) into an image or idol or person ( _murti_ ). This _murti_ is in the form of a body. One has done _pratishtha_ (instilled life) in it, giving rise to a _pratishthitatma_ (relative or charged self) and it gives fruit in the next life. Just as doing _pratishtha_ in this _murti_ (idol) gives fruit, this (body) gives fruit exactly like that. It is because this is an exact _murti_. Then the fruit, the _prakruti_ , does not remain under our control; it will keep giving fruit. Hence that is indeed our own _kruti_ (creation), born out of _aGnanta_ (ignorance of the Self). The Self ( _Atma_ ) has not created it. It was formed by two things coming together; through _vishesha_ _bhaav_ (the new extra intent that happened and that intent is not the property either of the two that met).

**Questioner:** So did this _prakruti_ (current energized complex of mind, speech and body) arise by coming together of _jada_ (matter) and _Chetan_ (the Self, Soul)?

**Dadashri:** Yes. The _parmanus_ (subatomic particles) of _jada_ (matter) came together with the Self ( _Chetan_ ), and therefore this came about. Ego, anger-pride-deceit-greed arise. Anger and pride gave rise to _ahamkar_ (ego) and deceit and greed resulted in _mamata_ (myness). This in turn gave rise to this _prakruti_ (energized non-Self complex).

One is the _Atma_ (Self), but being ignorant of the Self, an illusion arose, which is the belief, 'I am Chandubhai. I did this', and therefore a new living form ( _pootadoo_ , individual, person, non-Self complex of mind, speech and body) had been created. It became the _prakruti_. Now, one did not create it, it just happened. When those two ( _jada_ and _Chetan_ ) become separate, new _prakruti_ stops from being formed; that is all. _Prakruti_ means the form, person ' _pootadoo_ ' without the Self ( _Chetan_ ). _Prakruti_ is that where there is no _Chetan_ at all. There is only a 'belief _Chetan'_.

This illusion that has arisen from the relation between the two, that 'am I doing this or who is doing this?' Then he has accepted that, 'I am the one who is doing this, there is really no one else beside me, who else can do it?'

This extra result ( _vishesha parinam_ ) arises from two things ( _jada_ and _Chetan_ ; non-Self and the Self) coming together. This _vishesha parinam_ is the _prakruti_.

In that, the _Purush_ is the Self, is verily the God ( _Bhagwan_ ). But as a consequence of external pressure, _prakruti_ has arisen. What is all this? Who did all this? Awareness of 'I did it' arises, which is the _vishesha_ _bhaav_ (the new intent-view-outlook that arises and that intent is not the property either of the two –the Self and the matter), and that gives rise to the _prakruti._

Nothing happens to the main _Purush_ (Self). This _vishesha bhaav_ has arisen as a consequenc of external circumstances. As long as the _Purush_ (Self) does not come into its own awareness, it will indeed continue to remain in the awareness as the _prakruti_ ( _prakruti_ _bhaav_ ). _Prakruti_ means unawareness of one's own Self ( _swabhaav_ )

Iron left on the seashore will undergo changes. The iron itself does not do anything in that. Similarly, sea air does not do anything either. If air did that, then everything there would rust. But this is the coming together of two things that gave rise to a third thing. It is an extra intent ( _bhaav_ ). The rust that happens, is the _prakruti_. Iron is in the _bhaav_ (view, intent, outlook) of the iron, and _prakruti_ is in the _bhaav_ of the _prakruti_. If you separate the two, _prakruti_ (non-Self) will in the place of _prakruti_ , and _Purush_ will be _Purush_ (Self). As long as they are in one form, the rust ( _prakruti_ ) will continue to increase, without end.

##  'Gnan', in Swabhaav, in Vibhaav

_Purush_ and _prakruti_ are not linked together. They are in proximity with each other, and because of the view ( _bhaav,_ intent, outlook) of proximity, illusion arises in the _gnan_ (knowledge) of the self. This is because _Purush_ by nature is knowledge ( _gnanmaya_ ). The illusion ( _vibhramata_ ) is: 'Who did this? Then he will say, 'I did it', but actually all this is done by _prakruti_. However, as the _gnan_ (knowledge) changes, _prakruti_ arises, and when the _gnan_ comes into the Self ( _swabhaav_ ), _prakruti_ gets destroyed. Currently this _gnan_ is in 'extra view-intent' ( _vishesh bhaav_ ) and when it comes in natural view as the Self ( _swabhaav_ ), then the _prakruti_ gets destroyed.

When two eternal things (elements) come together, _vishesha bhaav_ arises in both. Both maintain their individual attributes ( _gundharma_ ), but additional attributes arise. Amongst the six original eternal elements, when matter ( _jada_ ) and the Self ( _Chetan_ ) come in close proximity, then _vishesh bhaav arises_. The other four elements, no matter where and how, when they come into close proximity with each other, there is no effect at all.

Marble gets hot from the presence of the sun. In that the 'original owner' the 'marble' believes that it is in marble's nature to be hot, that is how this extra result ( _vishesha parinam_ ) is. This will end when the sun sets. Marble stones are cold by nature. Similarly, _vishesha parinam_ resulted due to the proximity of _Atma_ (Self) and the _pudgal_ (matter), which gave rise to ego. What was a natural _pudgal_ (matter); does not remain anymore.

By two things coming together, their individual natures (property) do not change, but a third _vishesha bhaav_ (extra intent; extra attribute, extra view) arises in the 'ignorant state'. Just as when you place a book in front of a mirror, the book does not lose its nature. So then does the mirror lose its nature? No. The mirror is in its nature, but when you go in front of it, 'it' will also show you its own nature too, will it not? It will also show you the _vishesha bhaav_. This is a very subtle thing. Scientists will understand it quickly.

What is this _vishesha bhaav_? How does _prakruti_ arise on its own? I have seen all that. I am telling all this after 'seeing' it. How does this happen? It is because of the close proximity of the two, by both coming into touch with each other. The current state the Self is because of these two with _samipya bhaav_ (that which arises as a view due to proximity) and both coming into touch with each other. That belief should go away.

Extrinsic ( _vyatirek_ ) attributes arose when _pudgal_ (matter) and _Chetan_ (Self) came together. From that the view-intent ( _bhaav_ ) arises, and based on that _bhaav_ , _prakruti_ continues to be formed. It remains separate, but 'this one' does _bhaav_ here, and corresponding to that _bhaav_ a body complex with form ( _pootadoo_ ) is being created. After being formed (created) through _bhaav_ , it remains in its nature. Then it becomes young and grows old. For everyone, at first, it is such that it is liked, then it goes into its nature. One does not like it when it becomes old. _Prakruti_ is formed with the _bhaav_ (view-intent-outlook) according to what your (current) _bhaav_ are. If one has a desire to be a _sansari_ (live a worldly life as man and woman), he will meet a woman and more. He will meet with all those circumstances. Whatever _bhaav_ 'one' does, _vishesha bhaav_ ; that is how this ( _pudgal, prakruti_ ) becomes. Such attribute is in the _pudgal_ (non-Self complex) only.

_Gunas_ (attributes) of the _prakruti_ are of the non-Self ( _para_ ), not of the Self ( _swa_ ). People (not Self-realised) consider attributes of non-Self, as the attributes of the Self. Not a single attribule of the _prakruti_ is in ' _shuddhaChetan'_ (pure Self), and not a single attribute of the ' _shuddhaChetan'_ is in _prakruti_. As attributes, they are both separate in every way. Due to the intent-view of close proximity ( _samipya bhaav)_ to each other, oneness ( _ekata_ ) has happened, there is nothing else. They are separate right from the very beginning. Total 'wrong belief' has set in indeed. When a _Gnani_ _Purush_ give the 'right belief', the solution has come! It is only a change in vision only. Mistake is of the vision only.

##  Way of Bringing About the Final Settlement

What is this vision like? If you press a finger on one of your eyes then you will be see two lights instead of only one. If only little pressure comes on your eye will you not see two lights? Now actually there is only one light. Yet it appears two. If you are drinking tea then also many times one circle in a saucer appears as two circles. What is the reason for this? It is because there are two eyes, and the actual input of the visual information is distorted, and therefore everything looks double. These eyes see that too and that inner eyes—information processing site 'sees' that too, but that is _mithya_ _drashti_ wrong vision. Therefore it shows wrong—all associated with wrong belief. If it shows the right, if the vision is right, associated with right belief, then one becomes free from all pains that are externally induced ( _upadhi_ ) _._ _Vitarag Vignan_ —the science of absolutism is such that it can destroy all the pains, this science is verily such that it can make one free from all the pains. And the science is verily such, science is always that brings forth activity. Therefore after knowing this science, it will continue to work, You do not have to do anything. As long as you have to do anything, it is intellect in operation. And as long there is intellect, ego is there. And as long as there is ego, you will not be able to bring about settlement even if you want to.

**Questioner:** How does the vision begin to change?

**Dadashri:** The change of vision begins when one meets the _Gnani Purush_ and one's vision changes gradually as one listens to the _Gnani_ 's _satsang_. At this time as you are listening to this _satsang_ , your vision will change little at a time. Thus as you become familiar to a certain extent, in a month or two, the vision changes. Or else you should ask the _Gnani Purush_ , 'Sir, please grace me and change my vision', then He can change it for you in a day or only within an hour.'

##  Is Prakruti Jada or _Chetan_?

**Questioner** : Should one understand _prakruti_ as _jada_ (matter, inanimate) or _Chetan_ (Self)?

**Dadashri** : There is absolutely no _Chetan_ at all in the _prakruti_ , and the _chetan_ that is there, it is a power _chetan_.

**Questioner** : Is there only power _chetan_ in the _prakruti_? Is it not completely _jada_ (matter)?

**Dadashri** : _Prakruti_ is _jada_. Power has entered into that _jada_.

**Questioner** : Now, _prakruti_ you called it _jada_ , does movement in it happen in it because of the presence of the _Chetan_ (Self)?

**Dadashri** : Yes, just as when the sun comes up, people's restlessness increases, and when it goes down, people's restlessness decreases. All that happens in its presence. It is not told to do anything, it is not ordered to do anything. Similarly, in the presence of the _Atma_ (Self), power _chetan_ is filled into the _prakruti_. It is a power _chetna_ (energized self), not the main _Chetan_ (real Self). When the power goes away, that is the end of it. It will work as long as there is power in it.

Hence, these three batteries of mind, speech and body are charged, which later discharge, and charged again. These continue to get charged in the presence of the Self ( _Atma_ ). So, it is actually _jada_ (matter), but it is a power _chetan_. We can say _jada_ , but only _jada_ does not do anything. There is power _chetan_ (energy of presence of Self) filled in it. Then these three batteries continue to discharge. Discharging of the power filled batteries is called an effect.

If we put some ice in a cup and lay it on the table, where does the water come from on the outside wall of that cup? You see water trickling down, where does the water come from? There is ice in the cup, and therefore the moisture in the air condenses and forms water on the outside of the cup. You cannot see the moisture directly; it will be understood through the intellect ( _buddhi_ ). But people explain that this all happened. So then one will understand that, but these elememts ( _tattvas_ ) will not be understood. This is what has happened, how does it happen? Just as this condensation happens through science, this _prakruti_ has arisen through science.

What people know is not _prakruti._ It is something that has arisen, and people believe that it is something that God created. They call it the divine play of God.

##  Who is the Doer of Prakruti?

**Questioner** : I am asking this to understand even more, that who gives _prakruti_ the power of doing? Ultimately, it has arisen from matter ( _jada_ ), has it not?

**Dadashri** : No, _prakruti_ is not completely _jada_. It is _nischetan_ - _chetan_ (lifeless life; inanimate consciousness), and _nischetan_ - _chetan_ is not _achetan_ (inanimate; matter).

**Questioner** : Can it considered ever changing?

**Dadashri** : It is ever changing, but it is a _nischetan_ - _chetan_.

**Questioner** : What kind of energy ( _shakti_ ) can _nischetan_ - _chetan_ be called?

**Dadashri** : _Nischetan_ - _chetan_ means that it is a discharge _chetan_. If you charge anything, will it not continue to discharge on its own? Do You have to do anything in it? Its activity will happen on its own. No one has to do anything in it. Therefore, this is all a discharge, an effect, and I call this effective energy _nischetan_ - _chetan_. Although there is no _Chetan_ (the Self) in the effective energy, it looks like _Chetan_ , and that is why I call it _nischetan_ - _chetan_.

**Questioner** : Is there any power of 'doing' (doership) in the _prakruti_?

**Dadashri** : Yes, that is the nature of _prakruti_. Doership is not in the state of the Self ( _nijswarupa_ ); the Self is _akriya_ (not connected with any activity). Charged _pudgal_ (non-Self complex) _parmanus_ (subatomic particles) that are in a _prakruti_ , they are active ( _kriyavan_ ) they are _sakriya_ (wih activity). Everything is going the wrong way because of not understanding this. If one understands, 'Who is the doer', then there is final solution, otherwise there is no final solution.

_Pudgal_ is not a living thing. But it acquires extra intent ( _vishesha_ _bhaav_ ) of the Self, and _pudgal_ is formed accordingly. So change happens in it too. The Self does not have to do anything. _Vishesha_ _bhaav_ of the Self arises, which attracts the _parmanus_ (subatomic particles) and it automatically becomes a form ( _murta_ ); and then continues to carryout its work.

There is no need for a doer in this world. Whaterver things there are in the world, they are constantly changing. And because of that _vishesha_ _bhaavs_ keep changing and everything appears anew.

If one understands only this much, then there is a solution. The Self is _akriya_ (not connected with any activity), it is being made _kriya_ (to be connected with activity) by saying, 'I did this', and _prakruti_ is _sakriya_ (with activity) which people call _jada_ (inert, matter)

##  Difference Between Prakruti and Nature

**Questioner** : Please explain, what is _prakruti_? What is nature?

**Dadashri** : What nature results into is _prakruti_. When two hydrogen atoms and an oxygen atom are separate, that is called nature, and when they come together and it becomes water, then it is called _prakruti_.

Therefore nature is different and _prakruti_ is different. _Purush_ (the Self) has a vote in the _prakruti_. _Prakruti_ carries the vote of the _Purush_ , and nature does not have the vote of the _Purush_. It is scientific circumstantial evidence.

Formation of our body happens by five elements coming together, that is called _prakruti_. And when all the elements are separate, it is called nature. As long as air, space, light are separate, it is called nature, and when they come together to form this body, it is called _prakruti_. One needs a doer in the _prakruti_ , and no doer in nature. Nature itself is natural creation.

##  Relation Between Prakruti and the Self

**Questioner** : What is the relation of _prakruti_ to the Self?

**Dadashri** : There is no relation of _prakruti_ to the Self ( _Atma_ ). But _prakruti_ keeps arising in the presence of the Self. Such circumstances arise that their presence gives rise to _prakruti_. Now if a _Gnani_ _Purush_ separates those circumstances, then nothing of that sort will happen after that. So one will have to go beyond that illusion, he will have to become a _Purush_ (Self-realised). This _prakruti_ is full of illusion.

When you believe this as Chandubhai, that belief itself does the charging. And then Chandubhai only has come into bondage. When you attain this _Gnan_ , when you become aware of the Self, then You cease to charge. Only discharge remains, and that cannot be stopped. If it is effective, then no one can stop the effect. One can stop eating (charge), but what about what he has already eaten? He has no choice but to go to the toilet for it (discharge), does he? Hence, whoever has been given this _Gnan_ , charging has stopped for them.

**Questioner** : After attaining the _Gnan_ , _prakruti_ that has arisen due to _vishesha_ _bhaav_ (extra view-intent), then the Self be kept separate?

**Dadashri** : It is separate, and it remains separate. I can see that. It is separate, but the belief of the past that you are still stuck with, you cannot get rid of. You have that habit, do you not? It will gradually leave. However it is separate. The Self remains separate for you.

*****

#  [1.2]

#  Prakruti in the Form of Result

##  Do Prakruti and Life Leave Together?

**Questioner** : Despite being miserable why does a human being keep getting embroiled in this worldly life?

**Dadashri** : He is not getting entangled, he is suffering from pain; he wants to be free, he does not like it, but he has no control over it. He is under the control of _prakruti_. He can be free, if he becomes free from _prakruti_ , otherwise _prakruti_ will continue entangling him. _Prakruti_ has been already formed, you are under its control, so you do not have any say in it. All you can do now, is to become free from this _prakruti_. Until you become free from it, it will continue to entangle you. One becomes dependent on the _prakruti_ , and then wanders around the world.

**Questioner** : It is said that life and _prakruti_ leave together (at the time of death); so then what should one do?

**Dadashri** : Yes, they leave together; it means that some _prakruti_ is reduced by attaining _Gnan_ , _prakruti_ means _avaran_ (veil of ignorance). So if you have such veil ( _avaran_ ) here, then you cannot wander wherever you wish. If the veil is removed, that much less it ( _prakruti_ ) becomes. However if one has bound a very strong _prakruti_ , one of very dense veil, then he will not be freed from it even when he dies. It will seem exactly the way it was. His _prakruti_ will not go away. It is the same, whenever you look, even when he takes a beating because of it. If one's _prakruti_ is of stealing, he will get the beating, and yet he will only steal. If he is of bad conduct, he will suffer for it, his _prakruti_ will remain the same; he is overpowered by his _prakruti_ and does all this. When he makes a donation, he does so under the control of his _prakruti_ , not through _Gnan_. Even when he steals, he is under the control of _prakruti_. When _Gnan_ of _prakruti_ (non-Self) and _Purush_ (the Self) happens, that 'who am I?, and 'what is this _prakruti_?' they both separate, that is when there will be freedom, otherwise not. 'You' are _Purush_ , the Self is _Purush_ , and this (body complex) is _prakruti_. As long there is control of _prakruti_ , _Purush_ does not have any say. When _Purush_ becomes separate from _prakruti_ , then _Purush_ indeed has all the say. You can be free when You know 'who I am' and it comes into Your experience. Otherwise, these pains will keep coming at you for sure. You will have to constantly suffer the pains of the worldly life. At times you will have peace and other times turmoil. It is all because of the _prakruti_. Real happiness in not in this ( _prakruti_ ) at all. These peace and turmoil are both imaginary ( _kalpit_ ) things; it is not real happiness. Real happiness is eternal; once it comes, it never leaves. With real happiness, even if you were thrown in jail, you will not have any problem, turmoil will not arise.

**Questioner** : Some people, when they do not have any peace, they take poison and kill themselves to be in peace.

**Dadashri** : Yes, but what can he do? And it is not that one drinks poison. He does not deliberately drink poison; _prakruti_ makes him drink it. One does not have the energy even to evacuate his bowels. Lord Krishna did not have it, Lord Mahavir did not have it, and I do not have it. All this is under the control of _prakruti_. God was God, He was Lord Krishna. He had become _Purush_ , so He knew this _prakruti_. 'This is _prakruti'_ is how He would continue to know and know it, just as one knows a neighbor. It is very much worth knowing this inner science.

##  One Dances to the Tune of Prakruti

One dances as his _prakruti_ makes him dance. He loses the awareness of what is to his benefit, and what is harmful to him. When _prakruti_ makes him angry, he ends up becoming angry. He even cries when _prakruti_ makes him cry. He is does not feel ashamed of doing that. He sobs and cries his eyes out.

**Questioner** : Does _prakruti_ make one cry, or karma do?

**Dadashri** : Karma verily means _prakruti_. That is considered the main _prakruti_. _Prakruti_ indeed runs everything. It is the _prakruti_ that does it, and one says, "I did it", and that is called egoism.

Who asks for tea? _Prakruti_ does. Who asks for a sweet dessert? Who becomes hungry? Who becomes thirsty? _Prakruti_ does. Who feels insulted when insulted? It is the _prakruti_. Who goes to the toilet? Does the Self ( _Atma_ ) go? All this is _prakruti_ , and what do people say? 'I went to the toilet'. Does _prakruti_ get hungry or You?

**Questioner** : _Prakruti_ does.

**Dadashri** : And one says, 'I became hungry'. There is nothing wrong in saying it for the worldly interaction, no problem in saying it 'dramatically' (as in a drama). But one says it believing that. In worldly interaction, in drama, you have to say that.

Knowing the Self, _Purush_ and _prakruti_ will become separate. Then _prakruti_ carries out a role of the _prakruti_ , and _Purush_ caries out the role of the _Purush_.

After attaining this _Gnan_ , doership is gone, 'I' became a _Purush_ and _prakruti_ became separate. You became a _Purush_ and _prakruti_ became completely separate, therefore _Purush_ can do the _purushartha_ (progress as the Self). _Prakruti_ cannot do _purushartha_ , can it? And _prakruti's_ _purushartha_ (effort) is considered illusory _purushartha_. As it is, _prakruti_ is not under one's control. On the contrary, it makes one dance. And we are under its control. _Prakruti_ is not under our control at all. It is because whatever _prakruti_ that has been formed (in the past life); is an effect. And no one can do anything in the effect. Hence we have to suffer the effect, and so we have to remain under its control. Therefore, we (as the) _Purush_ have to do _Purushartha_ , and _prakruti_ will exercise its force. When You do this, You will gradually become separate and _prakruti_ will come to end. There is no new income, and the old only goes away. When there is discharge and no new charge, it ( _prakruti_ ) comes to an end. Up until now there was our doership only. _Prakruti_ would keeps it good for a while and at other times it would spoil it. It was just the belief we had of my-ness, but actually we ( _Purush_ ) were not there, were we? It is after knowing this _Gnan_ , that we became _Purush_. The real is _Purush_ , and the relative is _prarabdha_ ; it is effect giving _prakruti_. This whole science is worth understanding.

##  Prakruti Forces one to do...

If you really look at it, no one in the state of ignorance (of the Self) has become separate from _prakruti_. All these people are somewhat sufferer ( _bhokta_ ) of the _prakruti_. Who is the owner of the _prakruti_? It is the one who says, 'I am indeed this, I am Chanduubhai'. He is the sufferer of _prakruti_. What is _prakruti_ like there? If it is one's mother-in-law, it will become happy if it is shown the respect as a mother-in-law. When the son says, 'Daddy', _prakruti_ becomes happy, but this is Chandubhai. He suffers all such talk, so it is not the Self but the ego by the name of 'Chandubhai'.

This world is _prakruti_ controlled. It makes everyone do against his will, and he too, does it against his will. It will make you do it even when you do not want to do it. Our science shows us that this _prakruti_ is making us do against our will, know that and become separate from it. But this is for the one whose _dehadhyas_ of, 'I am this _prakruti_ , I am the one who is doing this', is gone. Otherwise _prakruti_ makes the whole world dance.

Otherwise, who is this Lord Krishna? It is a state of _narayan_ (God) from _nar_ (ordinary human being). But He was asleep like this. Hey... he did get shot by an arrow, did He not? Did He not know that an arrow is going to be coming His way? He would let it happen like in a drama. He knew that was going to happen, still He did not change anything. Whatever is going to happen to the _prakruti_ in time, will not let it go.

_Prakruti_ and _Atma_ (Self) are separate, but due to their proximity they are stuck so strongly to each other since time immemorial, that they do not become unstuck at all. And therefore, there seems oneness in their nature. Even the self ( _atma_ ; relative self) feels that, 'I will die'. Because it is one with the _prakruti_ , is it not? Hey, how can you die? But his nature has become one (with the _prakruti_ ).

One is completely, three hundred and sixty degrees, dependent on the _prakruti_. It is just the ego one does; ego of 'I will do this and I will do that.' That is all.

**Questioner** : So, from zero to three hundred sixty, whole _prakruti_ is dependent?

Whole _prakruti_ is entirely dependent. Now, whatever is going to happen in the _prakruti_ , based on that, speech comes out as an evidence ( _naimitik_ ), and so one adjusts (believes) in his mind that it happens according to what I say.

**Questioner** : Was the _prakruti_ of Tirthankars also dependent?

**Dadashri** : Not just of the Tirthankars, every _prakruti_ is dependent.

**Questioner** : No, I mean that the Self and it does not have anything to do with each other, but it...

**Dadashri** : Both have noting to do with each other.

**Questioner** : But _prakruti_ of Tirthankars, Gnanis has become clean in certain way, has it not?

**Dadashri** : One moves towards _Gnan_ as his _prakruti_ becomes clean, and the more he ruins his _prakruti_ more he goes down. One becomes lighter as he makes his _prakruti_ clean, and he climbs higher (towards _moksha_ ).

**Questioner** : Do _prakrut_ (non-Self) circumstances remain all the way to _keval Gnan_ (absolute knowledge state; absolute enlightenment)?

**Dadashri** : _Prakrut_ circumstances can exist even after _keval Gnan_. _Prakruti_ exists until one goes to _moksha_. Hence there are certain attributes, but anger-pride-deceit-greed is gone. Thereafter whatever remains, is there.

##  Relation between Swasatta and Parsatta

Now, if one understand this _parsatta_ (the authority of the non-Self), and then does not interfere in that _parsatta_ for one lifetime, then that _parsatta_ itself will let go of him and he will become free. That is all. One interferes in the _parsatta_ , and that is why that _satta_ (authority) holds on to him. People interfere in its authority. One says, 'I did it'. He does not have the energy to go to toilet. I gathered some foreign doctors and told them this, and they all become uncomfortable. Then I told them, you will realize if it is your energy when you are constipated.

**Questioner** : It is _prakrutik shakti_ (energy of the non-Self).

**Dadashri** : Yes, that is it. Nature is what drives everything, _prakruti_ makes one walk, and he claims, 'I walked'.

**Questioner** : Is authority of _prakruti_ independent of the authority if the Self, or is it dependent on the Self?

**Dadashri** : Authority of _prakruti_ is completely separate from the authority of the Self. Only the presence of the Self is necessary. The Self does not do anything. Everything will run if there is the presence of the Self. It is not dependent on the Self; all it needs is the presence of the Self. There is nothing, if there isn't the presence of the Self.

**Questioner** : Does that mean that _prakruti_ can do _akraman_ (invade with aggression) towards me? Can _prakruti_ do aggression towards the self?

**Dadashri** : It has, these people look the way do because of the aggression by the _prakruti_ towards the Self. Despite being God, one looks like this. One becomes angry, one becomes greedy, one becomes deceitful and one becomes cunning.

##  Prakruti is Independent at the Time of Liberation

**Questioner** : Now, if _prakruti_ wants to do something, it has to take permission of the Self, does it not?

**Dadashri** : No. _Prakruti_ means that whatever _bhaav_ (inner intent, view) the worldly self ( _vyavahar atma_ ) made, whatever kind of interference was done, such will be the _prakruti_ formed (charged). Then at the time of discharge, the worldly self does not like the discharge, but nonetheless _prakruti_ will become free (discharge) only according to its own nature. It (the self) does not like that at that time. Anger against you arose within me, but but 'I' do not like that.

**Questioner** : The anger that expresses; is it the _prakruti_ that does the anger?

**Dadashri** : What is visible is not anger. I go to the seed, to its main root, see where its starting point is. So at the starting point, one creates interference of anger with this _prakruti_ , and with whatever kind of _bhaav_ he does, the main _prakruti_ is verily formed with such _bhaav_. Then that _prakruti_ discharges through its nature ( _swabhaav_ ). At that time, the self does not like it, but what can the poor _prakruti_ do? Therefore, as long as there is a mistake in one's understanding, the _prakruti_ will cause pain. Otherwise, the _prakruti_ itself has not come to give either pain or pleasure.

##  Both Behave According to Their Nature

**Questioner** : _Prakruti_ and _Gnan_ , _Gnan_ keeps increasing day by day and _prakruti_ works too. _Prakruti_ works for a _Gnani_ , and it works for _aGnani_ (the one who does not have Self-realization) too. Now, explain to us how can _Gnan_ conquer _prakruti_?

**Dadashri** : _Gnan_ does not conquer the _prakruti_. _Prakruti_ remains within its intrinsic nature, _Gnan_ remains in its intrinsic nature! The Self remains in its intrinsic nature, _prakruti_ remains in its nature. In all the activity ( _kriya_ ) of _prakruti,_ the illusion of 'I am doing', is broken. Then One comes in _swabhavik kriya_ (the 'Seeing' and the 'Knowing' natural activity as the Self).

##  Freedom and Dependency of the Prakruti

**Questioner** : Please explain what that agent is, between the two.

**Dadashri** : There is no agent in the middle. The agent you believe is the agent of the _prakruti_ , and it has all the control, not You. You just have latched onto it. And you beleive there is some external agent. What does it say to that? You are the external agent. You do not have anything to do here. You keep 'seeing' what goes on.

What do 'we' do? Whole day, 'we' keep 'seeing' what 'A.M.Patel' eats, drinks. How many times he threw up. 'We' keep 'seeing' all that. That is all the authority 'we' have.

**Questioner** : Is _prakruti_ not a part of the body?

**Dadashri** : This body, mind-speech-body, all that comes under _prakruti_. Everything, except the Self, which the world believes as 'I' is all _prakruti_. And the Self is separate from that. One does not know that, the poor self (worldly interacting self) is not aware of that. And _prakruti_ , as a result, is independent, in effect (discharge), it is effective, but in 'causes' (formation, charge) it is dependent. It is not completely dependent, but there is a voting system, a parliamentary system. The Self does not have anything to do in this.

**Questioner:** If _prakruti_ is not completely independent, then what is it dependent on?

**Dadashri:** No, even in effect (discharge) it is independent. From birth to death, it is all effect (result), it is independent. _Prakruti_ is independent in that, You do not have any say in it. But you have some control in the causes that are being created within; you can make some change if you want to. Even there, you cannot make complete change. You can make some change that if you feel natural enmity towards someone, you can still decide within like, what do you gain from animosity? So you have that much right to make a change within, change in the causes, not in the effect. Effect will come exactly as it is meant to.

When one goes to approve a wife (arranged marriage), it is the _prakruti_ that does the approval, and he claims 'I approved her'. Then he comes home and tells her, 'I did not realize that you were like this. You turned out to be bad'. Hey _mooah_ (you mortal one)! She has not turned out to be bad, you are the one who is awkward. How can one understand these puzzles? One keeps getting entangled all day long.

##  Prakruti is not to be Changed, Change its Cause

**Questioner** : But it is said in the Gita that, the main nature of the _prakruti_ is to go verily towards illusory attachment ( _maya_ ), and now how is it possible to go against it, that is, to go towards the Self? Just as the intrinsic nature of water is to flow down, and the intrinsic nature of fire is to go up, it is difficult to take it against its nature. Similarly, how difficult is to take _prakruti_ towards the Self?

**Dadashri** : It is a mistake to take _prakruti_ against its nature. It is not to be taken against its nature; it is not to be trained. It is within its realm and authority ( _satta_ ). That _satta_ is an effect. _Prakruti_ 's _satta_ is result laden. That effect (result) cannot be changed, can it? Causes are to be changed, but instead, people try to change the _prakruti_ (result).

##  On What Basis can Purushartha Happen?

**Questioner** : So then, does _prakruti_ do all this, or does all this happens within the _prakruti_?

**Dadashri** : All this is _prakruti_ only. One should first know what _prakruti_ is. There are the mangos on a tree. Is it (the tree) making the mangos or are the mangos happening?

**Questioner** : It is happening.

**Dadashri** : That is how this _prakruti_ is. 'Result of an exam' (effect) is _prakruti_ , and and the causes that arise is an illusory ( _bhrant_ ) _purushartha_. Whatever is one's _gnan_ (knowledge) so is his _purushartha_.

_SatGnan_ , which is absolute knowledge, is called God. Whatever fraction of that God is with him, that much is his _Purushartha_. One does things based on that _Gnan_. When he repents after having cursed someone, does he do that through _Gnan_ , or does he do it through _aGnan_ (lack of absolute knowledge)?

**Queastioner** : Through _Gnan_.

**Dadashri** : That is the power of _Gnan_ , so there is _Purushartha_ there. Whatever part helps the part of _Gnan_ , that is all _Purushartha_. The rest is _prakruti_. _Visarjan_ (dissolution) is in the control of _prakruti_. _Sarjan_ (creation) is according to _gnan_ , and _visarjan_ is in the hands of _prakruti_. No one has a say in _visarjan_. All this is only scientific circumstantial evidence. The world is the puzzle itself; God has not puzzled this world at all.

##  Cause-effect Nature of Prakruti

**Questioner** : Are we born with some kind of _prakruti_ , certain _prakruti_ we have brought with us when we are born?

**Dadashri** : You have brought forth _prakruti_ for sure (from the past life). The Self is with the _prakruti_ , that is all, but you have brought _prakruti_ with you. That which brings (you in this life) is _prakruti_ and that which leaves is also _prakuti_ ; everything is _prakruti_ indeed. When was _prakruti_ bound (created)? _Karan_ (causal) _prakruti_ was bound in one's past life, a _karya_ (effect) _prakruti_ is formed from that same _karan_ _prakruti_ in this life. Effect ( _karya_ ) _prakruti_ means a fruit giving _prakruti_. And causal ( _karya_ ) _prakruti_ means that it not yet ready to give fruit. Now, causal ( _karan_ ) _prakruti_ will arise from this effect ( _karya_ ) _prakruti_. The ego is awkward and therefore it keeps giving rise to causal _prakruti_.

**Questioner** : One comes with this inner _prakruti_ from the second of birth, and then the outer _prakruti_ unfolds after birth?

**Dadashri** : Yes, he brings internal _prakruti_ with him, which gives rise to outer _prakruti_.

**Questioner** : But Dada, is there any relation between the formation of exrternal _prakruti_ , and internal _prakruti_ he brings with him?

**Dadashri** : If one knows how to discover that, one can become a _Gnani_ like me.

The external is encountered only because of the presence of the internal _prakruti_ ; otherwise it will not come together externally. Otherwise, there is no such rule that you will come across the external. This is very subtle talk.

**Questioner** : New karma that happen, do they happen only due to the external _prakruti_?

**Dadashri** : New karma that happen are based on the ego and the current understanding and knowledge. One can bind positive as well as negative karma, and _prakruti_ keeps one in such circumstances.

No one has such understanding at all. One thinks that everything he encounters; it all comes from the external only.

##  Who has Attachment-Abhorrence in This?

**Questioner:** The Soul is devoid of attachment-abhorrence ( _raag_ - _dwesh_ ), now how can this _prakruti_ become without attachment-abhorrence ( _raag_ - _dwesh_ )? When will this happen? What is the sequential order of this?

**Dadashri:** Gross ( _sthool_ ) _prakruti_ (mind-speech-body) does not have any attachment-abhorrence at all. _Puran_ - _galan_ (intake and output) is the nature of the _prakruti_. It is only the ego that does the attachment-abhorrence. It attaches to that which it likes and it abhors that which it dislikes. _Prakruti_ is in its nature. Would it be cold in winter or not?

**Questioner:** Yes, it would be.

**Dadashri:** When it (the ego) does not like cold, it creates abhorrence. Some people really enjoy cold weather, do they not?

**Questioner:** Yes, that is correct.

**Dadashri:** That is how it is; the _prakruti_ will feel cold in wintertime and hot in summertime. It is the ego that does _raag_ - _dwesh_. Once the ego leaves, _raag_ - _dwesh_ is gone.

**Questioner:** So after attaining this _Gnan_ , the _prakruti_ automatically returns to its naturalness, does it not?

**Dadashri:** Yes, after attaining _Gnan_ , _prakruti_ separated, but it has remained in the form of discharge. It will continue to discharge slowly and steadily. That which has been charged will indeed get discharged. It will discharge in the absence of the live 'I am Chandulal' (ego) automatically. That is what 'we' call _vyavasthit_.

##  Prakruti, Dependent on ego or Vyavasthit?

**Questioner** : Are _prakruti_ and _vyavasthit_ the same thing?

**Dadashri** : Your _prakruti_ is under the control of _vyavasthit_ , and _aGnani's_ (ignorant of the Self) _prakruti_ is under the control of ego. What does under the control of ego mean? It may even act crazy. Man with active (charge) ego ( _ahamkari_ ) will not be controlled at all even by _vyavasthit_ , will he? Your ego is gone, so _vyavasthit_ remains for you.

**Questioner** : Do _vyavasthit_ and _prakruti_ have any relation?

**Dadashri** : Ofcourse there is. Whole _prakruti_ is only _vyavasthit_. Such _prakruti_ is not false. _Vyavasthit_ means that ninty-eight will follow ninty-seven. It is also _vyavasthit_ that ninty-eight will not be followed by ninty. It will come, as it is suited.

**Questioner** : So is there some difference between _prakruti_ and _vyavasthit_?

**Dadashri** : A lot of difference. _Vyavasthit_ carries out work, and _prakruti_ keeps dissolving. In English I call _vyavasthit_ , scientific circumstantial 'evidence'.

**Questioner** : If _prakruti_ keeps dissolving, so then would it not get destroyed?

**Dadashri** : Yes, it is being destroyed, now it will start undergoing _nirjara_ (discharge). New karma is not bound after attaining this _Gnan_ , and old karma keep dissolving; they keep discharging. Nothing new is being charged. As long as there was awareness of 'I am the doer', new charging was occurring, and as long as _vyavasthit_ is the doer, his charging ceases. Then only discharge continues.

Suffering (the effect) _prakruti_ is _vyavasthit_ , creating (cause) _prakruti_ is not _vyavasthit_. Giving rise to a new one is not _vyavasthit_. One will continue to give rise to new _prakruti_ if he does not have _Gnan_. _Prakruti_ will not arise at all if one has _Gnan_ ; causes disappear.

**Questioner** : Dada, _prakruti_ is an effect, is it not?

**Dadashri** : Yes, _prakruti_ is an effect, you cannot say that it is only effect. Effects and causes, both attributes are in _prakruti_. Besides causes, the rest of the part is effects. That is why 'we' stop the causes. And that is why 'we' tell you that it is _vyavasthit_. It cannot be called _vyavasthit_ if causes continue.

_Prakruti_ means that stock has been created (filled) in the past life. Whatever stock was created in the past life, it is now manifesting. And anything filled today, will manifest in the next life. That is called _prakruti_.

##  Prakruti is Like a Ready Fireworks

Whatever you have filled, only that will come out. Say there is a small firecracker, a spinning firework with hissing sound, and a large cracker (in your fireworks for celebration) Will they lose their nature when set alight? _Prakruti_ means a kindled (ready to fire) thing. You do not have to kindle it now. When the time is right, it will be ablaze. Will it then stop? If it's nature is of a spinning firework, it may enter your loose _dhoti_ (lower garment), and if it's nature is that of a cracker, then it will blow up with a blast. And if its nature is of a sparkler, it will sparkle. So it will fire up based on its nature.

Large firecrackers blow up with a bang, but if you mistakenly filled it up with powder for a spinning hissing firecracker, it will fire like a spinning hissing one. If it gets into your _dhoti_ , how is that the fault of the poor man who lit it? He wore clothes appropriate for firing crackers, and you believe that a cracker would blast. Hey you, it is not a cracker; it has been filled in with the hissing spinning powder! So it will display the nature of a spinner firecracker. Will a cracker filled with sparkler powder blow up? No, therefore this is like the powder that has changed, what can the mind do there? So that is how it reaches the _buddhi_ (intellect). Can the internal powder be changed? If workers manufacturing the fireworks are too busy talking when they are packing the powder at the factory, they may pack the wrong powder, and that is how they end up. Then, thinking that you are lighting a cracker, it will fire like a spinning hissing firecracker and get into your clothes and burn them, and people will complain.hey, how did this happen? How did this happen? Hey, that is the way it is, it is _kaliyug_ (era of time lacking unity of mind, body and speech).

*****

#  [1.3]

#  Prakruti Unfolds as it was Bound

##  Prakruti has Attraction

**Questioner** : There is conviction of 'I am _Shuddhatma_ ' after attaining the _Gnan_ , but attraction ( _asakti_ ) that exists, does not suddenly go away, does it?

**Dadashri** : _Prakruti_ has attraction; _Purush_ (Self) does not have attraction. Once _Purush_ becomes separate He continues to do only _Purushartha_ ; and _prakruti_ is considered the one with attraction ( _asakti_ ). _Prakruti_ keeps being attracted. _Purush_ (Self) and _prakruti_ (non-Self complex) should become separate. No one can separate them for you. Once in a while, once in a million years, there is a _Gnani_ _Purush_ present, he will separate them for you. Until then one has to keep doing every thing indeed. That other way, when 'we' separate the two, then the Self ( _Purush_ ) will remain in nature as the Self, and non-Self ( _prakruti_ ) in the nuture of the non-Self. _Prakruti_ is in attraction and _Purush_ is as Knower-Seer.

After giving such _Gnan_ , 'we' separate the two, _Purush_ and _prakruti_. So one becomes a _Purush_ , and _Purush_ is with _Purushartha_. There is so much _Purushartha_ can be done in this! And the people keep looking at your _prakruti_ only. Hey _mooah_ (mortal)! Do not see the _prakruti_ , see the _Purush_. If you see the _prakruti_ , you will see the same old nature of his. You are not to see that. Does he not go to toilet? Does he stop going to the toilet after attaining the _Gnan_?

**Questioner** : No; that will continue.

**Dadashri** : If he was eating a lot of _kadhee_ (soup), is he going to stop eating the _kadhee_?

##  How Will Prakruti get Spent?

**Questioner** : You have then written that, 'some _prakruti_ is of renouncing, some _prakruti_ is of penance, some _prakruti_ is indulgent in pleasure. One has to just spend (use up) the _prakruti_ to attain _moksha_.' So what does 'spending the _prakruti'_ mean?

**Dadashri** : That is correct. It means to make your _prakruti_ suitable to others, become suitable and settle with equanimity.

**Questioner** : How can one use up (spend) _prakruti_ used to physical pleasures ( _vilaasi_ ) and go to _moksha_ (attain final liberation)?

**Dadashri** : Yes. One can go to _moksha_ after spending it ( _prakruti_ ). All this is physical pleasure, is it not? Do people not eat _jalebi_? Do they not eat _Hafoos_ (Alphonso) mangos? Is that not all physical pleasure ( _vilaas_ )? What is not _vilaas_ here? These are all physical pleasures of living beings ( _jivavilaas_ ). Some _vilaas_ very sticky and some is a little loose.

**Questioner** : What is the difference between _aadat_ (habit) and _prakruti_ ?

**Dadashri** : Habit is the beginning. If you do not have a habit, _prakruti_ will remain like that. And if you have a habit, then _prakruti_ will become _prakruti_ with that habit. When you keep asking again and again for tea, then it becomes a habit. First you make a habit, and then it becomes a habit. Is there not a difference between making a habit, and becoming a habit? Yes? The one who is making a habit can become free, and what becomes a habit, it cannot be removed.

**Questioner** : Is one not born with _prakruti_ (carried over from last life)?

**Dadashri** : Yes, You are born with it, and it is from the time you are born. That does not mean that you have come with it at a gross level. When you are born, _prakruti_ is in the form of _parmanus_ (subatomic particles), and is set up in form here (as life unfolds).

##  No Changes in the Style of Prakruti

**Questioner** : How can we make the nature of the _prakruti_ loosen its hold? This is because I know that this nature of _prakruti_ is such a thing that it is bondage. For example, one may have a habit of eating spicy or a habit of eating sweet, which doe not allow him to follow some discipline.

**Dadashri** : Wheter it is outside, or within the discipline, _prakruti_ will give its fruit. It may have gone beyond the limits of the set discipline ( _niyam_ ) but it is all a discharge, is it not? Therefore, the point is not that it remains or does not remain within the boundary of discipline; the point is that you see it as it is. Whatever is the nature of the _prakruti_ , that is what it constantly displays. What does discharge mean? It is which _prakruti_ continues to display as its nature.

Whatever has been charged, continues to discharge. And this body has been charged in such a way, it walks in the same way at age eighty, as he did when he was young. His style will not change. One can know from his walk. And nothing can be changed in these three charged batteries (mind-speech and body). Changes in them can be made only in the next life. There, worldly knowlwdge is of use, not our _Gnan_. Changes will happen according to that.

_Prakruti_ is with _niyam_ (regulated law and boundary) Nothing can be without _niyam._ The world has _niyam_ Only egoism is awkward (without discipline). Everything else is within disciple and law. Whatever is within its related law, is turned into one without discipline by this ego. One will say that he want his tea hot, and then the tea gets cold while he is talking to someone. Hey, why don't you quickly drink it, and then do the talking? But ego is crazy like that. The mind is not like that. The mind is all within its _niyam._

##  Awareness Brings Prakruti Within its Regularity.

**Questioner** : So, if there is awareness ( _jagruti_ ) of the _Gnan_ , _prakruti_ will automatically start coming within _niyam_ (regularity, natural state) is that true?

**Dadashri** : _Prakruti_ will start coming within _niyam_ for You, otherwise _Gnan_ will not take hold. If _Gnan_ has entered, then _prakruti_ will come into its natural state of regularity ( _niyam_ ).

**Questioner** : Now if _prakruti_ is with regularity and discipline then does it have any relation to _Gnan_? Does a discipline and regularity filled _prakruti_ help our _Gnan_ at all? There is also a sentence of Shrimad Rajchandra ( _Gnani Purush_ 1862-1902), 'body should be in an orderly regularity, speech should be _syadvaad_ (that which is spoken after seeing the viewpoint of the other, and thereby does not hurt him). So there is great emphasis on the _niyam._ So, then you also said just now that it will be good in one ate fig within _niyam._

**Dadashri** : Yes, so it is good.

**Questioner** : So that regular discipline ( _niyam_ ) of the _prakruti_ , it touches _vyavahar_ (worldly interaction); now how does it help _Gnan_ (Knowledge of the Self and the 'doer')?

**Dadashri** : So the _prakruti_ with _niyam_ helps _vyavahar_ (worldly interaction) and thus it helps _Gnan_. But it remains without regualrity then it will not be helful to the _Gnan_ , will it. There should be _niyam._ If it happens it is correct, there is no insistence for it.

**Questioner** : So it is also important to know what the regularity and discipline should be, is it not?

**Dadashri** : It depends on the body, does it not? One knows the _niyam_ that 'I will be able to eat only two _rotlis_ (thin flexible wheat flatbreads)'. Having decided that _niyan_ of two, if _prakruti_ pressures too much, then I will take half a _rotli_ extra.

**Questioner** : So in what matters should one have some regulated discipline?

**Dadashri** : Everything. You should eat within _niyam_ , and then what should you do if you cannot? You should not start crying. Eating, drinking sleeping, they are the main things, are they not? Which will you eliminate? Everything is worth keeping within the discipline. The _niyam_ of nature, for example going to the toilet in the morning has been arranged in a regular discipline.

**Questioner** : The nature of _prakruti_ and the regular discipline ( _niyam_ ), are they two separate things?

**Dadashri** : They are different. When one becomes habituated, it is called nature ( _swabhaav_ ).

**Questioner** : All that is habituated is _swabhaav_ , you said. So to move from that _swabhaav_ to _niyam_ (regular discipline) is some kind of _purushartha_ (effort)?

**Dadashri:** _Swabhaav_ (nature) is always within _niyam._

A person who does not like to eat that which is sour, will not eat it, even if we give him a hundered rupees. And the one who likes to eat sour things, he will pay five rupees so that he can eat something sour.

**Questioner** : Yes, is that called nature of the _prakruti_ ( _prakruti_ _swabhaav_ )?

**Dadashri** : All these are called _swabhaav_.

**Questioner** : And is _swabhaav_ according to _niyam_ (regulated order) indeed?

**Dadashri** : It is according to _niyam._

**Questioner** : Now, to arrange the amount, how much sour to eat and how much not to eat, is that called _niyam_?

**Dadashri:** All _niyam._ That is 'our' work. That is our _Gnan_ working.

##  Awareness in Front of Prakruti

**Questioner** : You say 'keep on doing the work' instead of that, is it not appropriate to say, 'Let the work happen'.

**Dadashri** : No. The intent behind saying, 'keep on doing the work' is that whatever work is going on in _prakruti_ , let that work continue. You do not obstruct. 'You' remain in your own effort (as the Self) only

**Questioner** : What I meant to convey is that whatever is already happening, to that we say 'do it this way', but it is indeed happening, is it not?

**Dadashri** : It is happening, but in order not to obstruct, we say 'do' it. 'Now there is nothing to be done', that is called obstruction. You cannot say, 'Everything is happening, now there is nothing to be done.' Let _prakruti_ run as _prakruti_ , You keep 'seeing' it. That is why 'we' tell you to 'drive with your eyes open', do we not? Do people drive with eyes closed? Can one drive a car with his eyes closed? That is how everything has to be done with awakened awareness ( _jagruti_ ) in the state of the _Gnan_.

If the 'car' stops after attaining the _Gnan_ , turn the handle. Before, there were cars with handles (to jump start), were they not? If the car stopped, one had to turn the handle and start it again. So turn the handle on the Self and do not apply brakes to the _pudgal_ ( _prakruti_ ). Many people apply brakes to the _prakruti_ that, 'it will be fine if you don't say anything'. You should not apply breaks. Let _pudgal_ (non-Self complex) run on its own temperament. Do not put breaks like, 'it is _vyavasthit_ , is it not? It is like this and it is like that.' Why do you have to apply the break? It runs so well within its temperament, it will really run.

**Questioner** : Yes, and we should apply handle of the Self.

**Dadashri** : Yes, apply handle to the Self and do not apply breaks to the _pudgal_. Many people apply breaks to the _pudgal_ , 'It is only _vyavasthit_ , is it not?' You will end up applying the brakes, but _vyavasthit_ is only after it happens. Until then, let the car run by itself. Let the _pudgal_ run, wherever it goes, the way it wants to. Do not apply brakes to it, because it just has to be 'seen'. Applying brakes will not work, and on the contrary it will collide. It is a 'collision'.

If you apply barakes, it will only collide, nothing else can be changed in it. And to apply handle to the Self is _upayoga_ (applied awareness), maintain some awareness, slow down and You become aware, slow down and You become aware.

**Questioner** : People say that one should have discipline ( _niyam_ ). One should apply the brake of discipline, what about that?

**Dadashri** : For our _mahatmas_ 'we' have given only the five Agnas. There is nothing of this for the _mahatmas_. All this I have said, it has been for the outside people.

**Questioner** : Our _mahatmas_ say that one should have discipline; it should be like this.

**Dadashri** : They will say that. They will say whatever they had filled within. And the other person who has not filled discipline in him, he will say that. That is not the question. How do we know what kind of stock one has filled? He has come with all kinds of stock, and that stock keeps coming out. For us, one following 'our' five Agnas, 'we' do not have any condition (demand). And he may go where he wants to, may eat what he wants. He follows the Agnas weakly, that is why have to tell him this extra thing about applying the handle.

If you say it will be fine if I do not go to the office, then it will go wrong but when you do not say anything, he will keep going to the office. This does not need the handle to be applied to it. This will keep going if you do not apply brakes to it.

**Questioner** : What brake gets applied in not following the five Agnas?

**Dadashri** : He has applied other brakes. What is wrong in not doing this? What is wrong if it happens this way? That is how he has applied the brakes. He has not released the brakes yet. He has always applied those brakes

That other is going on for him, it will continue if you do not apply the brake. And the brake is not applied through the mind; it is applied through speech. It happens when you say it; otherwise it is not called brake. A negative thought in the mind is not called a brake.

**Questioner** : If there is some work, and I say, 'I will not do this work. I will not do the work', does that mean that brake got applied?

**Dadashri** : Brake is applied and it will remain like that. Until it is released, it will keep wearing down.

**Questioner** : Still _vyavasthit_ is making one do that work for sure.

**Dadashri** : It will make one do the work, but brake will still remain applied. Applied brake will keep getting ruined. All those brakes have to be released.

*****

#  [1.4]

#  See Prakruti as Flawless

##  Who is at Fault in This?

_Prakruti_ (the non-Self complex) is verily natural, but the intellect creates interference. _Prakruti_ may not like to use the cooling fan; in that, where is the fault of the fan? Where is the fault of _prakruti_ in this? That the fault is seen is due to the intellect and not the Self (Soul).

Circumstances bind _prakruti_ and the worldly life ( _sansar_ ) runs according to _prakruti_ , now in this, whose fault needs to be seen?

All these are the faults of the _prakrut_ (the non-Self), but one believes that these are the faults of the Self ( _Chetan_ ), which is why this worldly life perpetuates. In fact no one is at fault at all. When the _prakruti_ is the 'doer', at that time the Self is not the owner. At the time of binding (charging) of the _prakruti_ , the self (the worldly self) becomes the owner through the illusion and at the time of unfolding (discharge), the Self (the Soul without the illusion) cannot be the owner.

What is _prakruti_? If you go to the well and say, 'You are worthless'. That gives rise to _prakruti_ , and thenwhatever is spoken is _prakruti_. When that _prakruti_ speaks, from that echo (from the well), would you not know what you had said before? All these faults are of that _prakruti_.

##  How can Prakruti be Changed?

**Questioner:** How can the nature of the _prakruti_ , which has been established for many years, be changed?

**Dadashri:** If You 'know' your _prakruti_ (the formed complex of mind, speech and body) that this is a fault in this _prakruti_ , if you know this much then it is enough, that means your nature has changed. It is more than enough if You (the awakened one) 'know' a mistake as a mistake. It is a great _purushartha_ of the _Purush_ (Self) to know a mistake as a mistake. It is _prakruti_ and _prakruti_ will not change. The _prakruti_ , which is already formed, will not leave its nature.

**Questioner:** Will the faults of the _prakruti_ decrease by 'seeing' the _prakruti_?

**Dadashri:** Except that there is no other way at all. If You have the intent to be rid of the mistakes then they will decrease and if You do not then they will remain.

**Questioner:** But many qualities of the _prakruti_ are good too and many qualities are bad too.

**Dadashri:** If you want to purge all of them, then do so. Or purge those, which are wrong and are hurtful to you.

##  It Happens According to the Prakruti

Otherwise, everything else is according to _parkruti_. One is going to do according to his _prakruti_. Not everyone has to sing, a singer will sing the songs. Each person does according to his _prakruti_. Why do you have to look for faults in it? He does it according to his ability. You cannot make him do according to your design, insisting that he has to follow only your design. There cannot be such rule.

Where is the mistake when one does according to his _prakruti_? Is this is a department of judges? Everyone does things according to his _prakruti_. I too keep do work according to my _prakruti_. One has _prakruti_ , does he not?

**Questioner** : One forgets just that, that the other person is not the doer.

**Dadashri** : Yes. There is no problem if that awareness prevails. Worldly life ( _sansar_ ) arises from the second one sees a fault in others; and it will not be resolved until this mistake is destroyed. One will remain entangled.

Not even for a second, 'we' have seen a fault in anyone, and if 'we' do see any, 'we' will tell him right away. Right to him, 'we' do not hide it. 'We' tell him that 'we' see this fault. Accept it if you have a need, otherwise leave it aside.

**Questioner** : You say that for his salvation.

**Dadashri** : 'We' say it to caution him, so that he gets a solution, and 'we' do not have any problem if he does not accept it. 'We' do not have problem at all if he refuses adamantly to accept it. 'We' will tell him to do it this way, and there is no problem if does not accept it.

**Questioner** : You do not have any problem?

**Dadashri** : I know on what basis he is sayting this. He is doing so on the basis of unfolding karma. It is not that he wishes to obstruct my _Agna_ , does he? He does not wish that at all, so we are not liable.

'We' have to turn it around when he says (anything negative) as a result of unfolding karma. If any _prakruti_ loses control, then in that situation, 'we' have to restrain it promptly. It will do complete harm to itself, and it bnrings harms to others too. However, ordinarily _prakruti_ keeps making mistakes indeed. Everything in the world are _prakrutis_ only.

##  As Many Layers of Prakruti as the Variety of Vikalp

**Questioner** : A _prakruti_ that appears quiet, is it suppressed or is it in balance?

**Dadashri** : The _prakruti_ that appears active is considered in balance, and even that which appears quiet _prakruti_ is considered in balance too. It cannot be considered suppressed. Suppression has nothing to do with it. A man may appear calm even if you slap . Therefore, it is not suppressed; it is also not brave. It is not through _Gnan_ ; just the _prakruti_ is like that.

**Questioner** : Then how many layers of _prakruti_ there are?

**Dadashri** : There are as many layers of _prakruti_ , as the variety of _vikalp_ (beginning with 'I am Chandubhai').

##  Energy Increases as the Prakruti Reverts to Naturalness

##  From Lack of Control

**Questioner:** Dada has said that if a _prakruti_ that had gone beyond bounds and norms reverts to naturalness, then the energies increase a lot.

**Dadashri:** Yes, there will be tremendous rise in energies.

**Questioner:** How does it happen?

**Dadashri:** If a _prakruti_ that had gone haywire becomes natural, there is a tremendous rise in the inner energies, and it pulls a lot of energies from outside. What will happen if you pour water on a large hot iron ball? It will consume everything; it will not let even a single drop to drip down. In the same manner such a _prakruti_ , which has gone haywire, is like a red-hot iron ball. And later as it starts to cool down, its energies start to increase.

##  Eventually Both are Vitarag

You will be able to maintain _vitaragata_ , if you become acquainted with the other person's _prakruti_. For example, a rose plant has thorns that prick you, so it is decided that rose plant will always have thorns. Then, you will not be upset by the thorns. You will have to be ready to be pricked if you want the rose. To become acquainted with the _prakruti_ is knowledge ( _gnan_ ), and with knowledge comes conduct, that is all.

Therefore, the _prakruti_ , that this person's attributes (nature) is this, then _vitaragata_ (state without any attachment or abhorrence) remains towards him. You will know that it is not his fault; his _prakruti_ is like that.

So, to see a fault in anyone is your own fault. Our science says that if you see fault in anyone, it is your own fault. That reaction has come because of your own fault. The Self ( _Atma_ ) is _vitarag_ , and _prakruti_ is also _vitarag_. But whatever fault you bring out, it has its reaction.

_Purush_ (Self) is _vitarag_ , and _prakruti_ is _vitarag_. Inspite of living with _Purush_ , it has remained _vitarag_. _Prakruti_ is _jada_ (without the ability to 'see and 'know', matter), it is not _Chetan_ (the Self with the ability to 'see' and 'know'). It is by nature _vitarag_ , just as the Self is _vitarag_ by nature.

**Questioner** : What is the difference between _vitaragata_ (non-attachment) of the Self and _vitaragata_ of the _prakruti_?

**Dadashri** : There is no difference. But today, the self ( _vyavahar atma_ ) is not in the _vitaragata_ , and thus it interferes in the _prakruti_. Then _prakruti_ reacts, that is all. Otherwise, _prakruti_ itself does not do anything.

##  Gnani Changes Prakruti Like This

People think that when Dada goes to his room, he goes to sleep; it is far from the truth. At the age of seventy-seven I sit in _padmasan_ for an hour. Even the legs bend, that is why the light and the energy of the eyes have been preserved. That is because I have never criticized or insulted the _prakruti_. People insult it by criticizing it. _Prakruti_ is alive, so it will have an effect if you insult it. If you insult this non-living thing ( _jada_ ; inanimate), there is an effect. What effect does it have? The echo (effect) of it falls on only you, and _prakruti_ is little alive, it is _mischrachetan_ , so it does have some effect. So you cannot insult it.

##  Problem is not of the Mistake, Problem is of the Ignorance

I know that the mistakes are the same as before. Do you have such awareness?

**Questioner** : It is completely in my awareness, but it goes away. After the mistake happens, I realize that it has gone away.

**Dadashri** : Then there is no problem.

**Questioner** : And I also know that Dada will rebuke me.

**Dadashri** : You will know that too, because a mistake has occurred, and that 'we' know. Whatever is in the _prakruti_ , it is going to come out, there is no choice there. The reason 'we' rebuke you is that are you aware or not?

There is no problem when a mistake happens. To know the mistake, and improve upon the mistake is what is important. Mistake is of the _prakruti_. 'We' do not consider mistake of the _prakruti_ , a mistake. When You 'know' the mistake, it proves that You are separate.

**Questioner** : We may not even be aware of this when it is happening,, but what is the awareness which comes automatically later?

**Dadashri** : Awareness that comes later is not proper, but presence of awareness while mistake is being made, is called full awareness.

**Questioner** : But that awatreness comes automatically later.

**Dadashri** : But that will come automatically, and that itself is called the Self. But if awarenerss comes when the mistake is happening, that is called exact.

**Questioner** : Because I have not applied the handle, or done anything, and yet it shows from within that a mistake has occured, mistake has occured.

**Dadashri** : That proves that Self is indeed separate, and now it has become separate. This is the proof of it.

##  The Vision of the Self Makes Even a Tiger Non-violent

**Questioner:** Instead of making my _prakruti_ adjust with the other person's _prakruti_ , if as 'I am _Shuddhatma_ (pure Soul)' I see other person as _Shuddhatma_ then will the _prakruti_ adjust by itself?

**Dadashri:** It will definitely adjust. If you prod the _prakruti_ then it will rebound and react, otherwise it will behave so beautifully and naturally. When one becomes unnatural then that _prakruti_ will keep jumping (becoming unnatural).

**Questioner:** But the one who has taken _Gnan_ , his _prakruti_ can become _sahaj_ (natural) , but is it so for the opponent who has not taken _Gnan_?

**Dadashri:** The one with the _Gnan_ can adjust with the _prakruti_ of another very easily and naturally, if the 'interferer' within does not interfere.

**Questioner:** Now there are two people opposing each other, one has taken Dada's _Gnan_ so he is in the process of making his _prakruti_ natural by staying in _Gnan_ , as the Self, by following five Agnas; but how will this make the _prakruti_ of the opponent who has not taken _Gnan_ , _sahaj_?

**Dadashri:** No, this has nothing to do with him.

**Questioner:** Now his _prakruti_ does not become _sahaj_ , then will it not create problem for us?

**Dadashri:** For You these five Agnas is the safe side in every way. If You remain in these Agnas, then no one, not even a tiger or a lion can harm you. As long You see a tiger as a _Shuddhatma_ -pure Soul, it will forget the beastliness and violent nature. Once it forgot its nature it means it is over, it will not do anything.

**Questioner:** Does that mean that seeing _Shuddhatma_ (the Self) in the other person, brings about a change in that person?

**Dadashri:** Of course, that is indeed why I am telling you to see the family members as _Shuddhatma_. You have never seen them thus, have you? Say for instance, as you enter the home and notice your elder son and you might not have seen anything, you might just say how are you, you do everything but internally if you say, 'he is an unworthy fellow'. If you see him this way then it will have its effect. And if you see the Self in him then it will have that effect.

This world is totally effective. It is so effective that you can't even talk about it! 'We' are doing the same thing in this _Vidhi_ (the instillation of inner energies to the one who surrenders to the _Gnani_ ) 'we' place an effect and energize the vital-eternal element dormant within you. That is why you feel so energized, otherwise how can it happen? I have come here with the earnings of infinite life times and you walked here just like that.

**Questioner:** You had said that 'we' see _Shuddhatma_ as _Shuddhatma_. Within, this _Shuddhatma_ is absolutely flawless...

**Dadashri:** It is verily the God (Bhagwan).

**Questioner:** But we can see even his _prakruti_ flawless.

**Dadashri:** Yes. That _prakruti_ must appear flawless.

**Questioner:** At the end when _prakruti_ also appears flawless then both come along together.

**Dadashri:** Yes, besides our path, _Akram_ path even goes to the extent of saying that 'see' the deceit ( _kapat_ ) that exists or arises. And in _karmic_ (step-by-step path) deceit will not work at all! There the ego has to be purified every step of the way. Deceit will not work over there.

Therefore it is enough if it finishes in two to three more lives! Oh, even if it will finish in ten more life times, what are 'we' going to lose? But, no one is at fault.

##  The Flawless Vision of the Gnani

**Questioner:** What is the meaning of faultlessness? How can we see a person flawless? Is this flawlessness a natural thing or something else?

**Dadashri:** Now, if one attains this absolute flawless vision, then only he can see the other person flawless, otherwise he cannot see other person flawless. The fact that one sees the other at fault is his very own fault. Therefore, I see the whole world as flawless. By 'I' here I mean to convey that when I am as Dada Bhagwan (the absolute Self), I see the whole world flawless, and when I interact as Ambalal, I still see the world as flawless in my conviction ( _pratiti_ ), but that may not be in the conduct ( _vartan_ ). At that time, I would even point out your mistake.

When I see the whole world flawless then how did I see this mistake? But then, I erase that mistake (of Ambalal) on the spot, all blemishes are wiped off and I see it again with clarity of the flawless vision. I have not come here to see the faults of your _prakruti_ (the relative self). I have come here to 'See' your _prakruti_. I have not come to see the faults of your or my _prakruti_. Rather, I have come here to 'See' ( _nirikshan_ ) the _prakruti_. I have come here to Seer and Know the _prakruti_.

**Questioner:** And then, is flawlessness a natural process or something else?

**Dadashri:** One is flawless only when one is natural. Otherwise not. Unnaturalness is the flaw.

Now let's talk about previous conversation. What do our _mahatmas_ (those who have attained _Gnan_ \--Self) do? They will scold the children and will do other things to correct them. _Mahatmas_ know and they have awareness that, by real viewpoint the child is blameless, but by relative viewpoint he is not. So they would reprimand them. How long will they scold and reprimand? As long as they have opinion, 'if I do not correct and scold him, he will not improve.' So they do such things to improve them.

That is why we (Dadashri & The Lord within) simply remain as the Seer of the _prakruti_ of others. But for someone who stays close to me like this Niruben here, there are some residual intentions of correcting her, and that is wrong. Sometimes, I end up saying something that points out her mistakes. The mistake of the _prakruti_ is not to be minded. That is the hallmark of a _Gnani_. The fully enlightened _Gnani_ is Lord (God) in human form. The Lord does not see the fault of any _prakruti_ , ever. I see everyone flawless. I do not see anyone at fault. Not even slightest mistake in others is to be seen. If she were to drop a hot coal on me, I would not see her at fault, and yet minute errors of hers are noticed and the desire to see her overcome these faults arises in the mind. Nonetheless, one does not need to get rid (push away the negativities) of the _prakruti_. _Prakruti_ will of course play its own role. That is certain. What do these worldly people do? They strive to improve others at the cost of losing their own improvement. Their fathers also had sustained such personal losses and thereafter they had improved.

**Questioner:** So Dada, at the cost of losing his hundred points he improved the other person, but what were these hundred that he lost?

**Dadashri:** That loss was to the self ( _atma_ ). Even his father had sustained similar loss, no? One man was saying to his son, 'Don't you understand, I am your father!' You crazy fool! What kind of person are you? Why did you say such a thing? That too, to a son attending college? Mooah! (Dadashri's classic way of addressing to awaken the spiritually ignorant person). What kind of father are you? Then I admonished him a lot. I explained to him that this was not the way to talk to a son. What will it lead to in future relations with him, and what will be your condition? As a _Gnani_ , we cannot speak such words. I 'See' him flawess, a hundred percent flawless and there are no two ways about it. Every living being in the entire world is seen as flawless. Not a single flaw is evident in anyone, and the same is the case with You too. However, in your situation, your flaws are arising in your discharge (effect karma unfolding in this life). If you see the other person at fault it means that abhorrence remains. That abhorrence will have to go.

##  Know the Fault, but do not Consider him to be Faulty

**Questioner** : So every individual should be known to be faultless, and not consider them as faultless, is that so?

**Dadashri** : To consider as faultless becomes an opinion, We should Know everyone is flawless.

**Questioner** : And if he is at fault, know him as faulty?

**Dadashri** : No, in our _Gnan_ , he is not guilty, Know him only as flawless. No one is at fault at all. One appears faulty through illusory vision. Illusory vision creates two parts: he is guilty and he is flawless. He is _paapi_ (sinful, with the effect of demerit _karma_ ) and he is _punyashadi_ (virtuous, with effect of merit _karma_ ). And this vision (of _Gnan_ ) is only a single vision, he is indeed flawless ( _nirdosh_ ); and that is absolutely locked. Then _buddhi_ (intellect) does not have any scope of saying anything. It does not give _buddhi_ any scope to interfere. It will go away from there because it knows that it does not have any say in it. She will say, 'Let us go home'. Is she single? She was married, so she will run off to her husband's home.

**Questioner** : So Dada, we should not even consider one as faulty or faultless, we should know him as flawless.

**Dadashri** : Know everything, but do not know him as faulty. Knowing one as faulty, means it is your vision that is spoilt. And 'Chandubhai' interferes with faulty one one, You should keep Seeing that. 'You' should not obstruct 'Chandubhai' (file one).

**Questioner** : Keep seeing what he is doing?

**Dadashri** : That is all, keep Seeing, because the one at fault is knocking heads with the faulty one. But 'Chandubhai' is flawless, and the other person is also is flawless. Both fight, but they are both flawless.

**Questioner** : So even if Chandubhai is at fault, by subtle viewpoint he is indeed flawless.

**Dadashri** : He is definitely flawless by subtle viewpoint, but you do what you have to do to Chandubhai. Howebver in relation to the world, I am telling you to consider him flalwless. You have to caution Chandubhai that it is not acceptable if he does that. You are to feed him pure 'food'. The current state he is in is because of having fed him impure 'food'. So now, the settlement has to come by giving pure food.

**Questioner** : If he does anything wrong, I have to tell him to do _pratikraman_?

**Dadashri** : Yes, you have to tell him all that. 'You' can even tell him, 'You are worthless', only to 'Chandubhai' and not others, because he is Your file number one.

**Questioner** : So, if file number one is is at fault, then should I consider him at fault and scold him?

**Dadashri** : You can scold him, you can also be prejudiced against him, that, 'I know, you are like that'. Scold him too, because we want to bring him to a final settlement.

##  The Real Culprit got Caught

**Questioner** : But we should see the other person, for example file number ten, flawless, is that so?

**Dadashri** : Flawless. Hey, even your file number two (spouse) is also flawless. Because, the faults that were, existed because you saw others at fault, and you have not seen the fault of this Chandubhai? This is the reaction of seeing those faults. So the guilty one has been caught. Others are not at fault at all.

**Questioner** : We saw that other wrongly.

**Dadashri** : You saw it wrong indeed, now You see it correctly. One just has to understand this; there is nothing else to be done. The talk of the _vitarags_ just has to be understood; nothing is to be done. That is how wise _vitarags_ were. If he had to do anything, the poor man would get exhausted.

**Questioner** : And, if he does anything, bondage comes, no?.

**Dadashri** : Yes, doing is verily bondage. Anything you do is bondage. Turning rosary beads, you 'did that', means bondage. But that is not for everyone. For the outsiders (non- _mahatmas_ ) you can say turn the beads, because they are in business of creating bondage.

*****

#  [1.5]

#  Different Natures of Prakruti

##  Path of Moksha With Only one Sentence

Someone may ask you to show him God. So you tell him that if he subtracts all his _prakruti_ 's nature, then he is God indeed.

**Questioner** : Subtracting that is the main thing, Dada.

**Dadashri** : First decide that there is God within; then know how to substract all this.

**Questioner** : If one has the _sadhana_ (spiritual seeking) of life after life, one will know how to subtract.

**Dadashri** : One will know, but it is not easy.

**Questioner** : You said to just subtract it, but how should one do that? The _prakruti_ is _jada_ (inanimate, lifeless).

**Dadashri** : It is _jada_ , and yet it is active ( _kriyavaan_ ). And it gives sweet, as well as bitter fruits. One will say the sweet ones are my doing, and the bitter ones are not mine. But sweet and bitter are both _prakrutis_. The one who does not want to give rise to fruit, is the Self.

So subtract all the _prakrut_ (non-Self) attributes, and then You will see God. God is that what has manifested within, what you see is the _prakruti_.

**Questioner** : You are saying to subtract all the _prakruti's_ (non-Self) nature; one can remain the Knower-Seer ( _Gnata-Drashta_ ) of the _prakruti_ , but how and from what can we subtract?

**Dadashri** : When the other person curses you, God is not doing the cursing; it is the nature of the _prakruti_ doing the cursing. When You deduct this, You see God. When You deduct every kind of _prakruti_ 's nature, You can see God. If only this sentence was ever there, many _sadhus_ (monks who renounce life to attain the Self) would have been on the path to _moksha_. If only someone had said this much pure thing!

##  That is why Attributes of Prakruti are Born

What would you say if clove tastes sweet? If it tastes good to the tongue? It has become _vikari_ , it is not in its main nature.

Would one eat bittergourd ( _karela_ ) if they became sweet? No. He will say that he wants only the bitter ones. He will make do with the less bitter ones, but he will not touch the sweet ones at all.

Every one is in his own nature. Nothing in this world will let go of its nature. That is why a Muslim person will say 'I like fish'. Hey, what pleasure do you get out of eating fish?' It is what we find different in our vegetables. There is difference in _parmanu_ (subatomic particle) of everything, and thus there is a difference in the taste. If you make _rotli_ (thin flexible flatbread) at ten minutes past eight, and you make another at fifteen minutes past, there will be difference in taste, because there is a change in time, it there not? Flour is the same; _bhaav_ (intent-view) that goes into it is different.

**Questioner** : Even _parmanus_ of the flour will change internally, will they not?

**Dadashri** : That is the time limit. Flour, water etc., everything keeps changing, and people say, 'no, no _rotli_ is the same. Hey, it is not. Each and every _rotli_ is different, time is different, is it not?

**Questioner** : No. But bitter gourd is always bitter, but mango can be sweet or sour.

**Dadashri** : People do not consider a problem if a mango is sour or sweet. But what if it turns out to be hot (spicy)? They will say, 'Throw it away; there is something wrong with it'. If it is sour, they will understand that it is sour.

**Questioner** : No, but they are all their attributes, _neem_ tree will always be bitter. But man has all the changes.

**Dadashri** : Even in man, if you know how to know all these _prakrutis_ , then you will understand that this one is a _neem_ (bitter), you may touch it, sit under its shade, but you are not to take its leaves in your mouth. Do people not sit underneath the _neem_ tree?

**Questioner** : Yes, they do. They take the benefit of its shade to cool down.

**Dadashri** : Hey, they even take their leaves and do this. They will smell them but they will not put them int their mouths. They know that it will be only bitter; they are 'born' bitter. Human _prakruti_ is not like that. Many times a 'bitter' _prakruti_ will become sweet at a certain age.

**Questioner** : Will it change?

**Dadashri** : Because man is ever changing. Their change is only in giving fruit for one lifetime; and we give fruit and at the same time we also bind (create a new one for next life) it. So we cannot say that one is a thief forever.

**Questioner** : Can we say that _neem_ tree will remain a _neem_ tree firever?

**Dadashri** : Yes.

**Questioner** : And we cannot say that a man will remain bitter forever.

**Dadashri** : No, you have to find out what the man is like? But see that only generally. Like this man, you find out and know that he is like this. He may even change tomorrow morning and become a great _Gnani_.

**Questioner** : But can _prakruti_ remain constant roughly throughout life in humans?

**Dadashri** : Yes it can. It does for many people. That is why, do people not say ' _pran_ (life) and _prakruti_ ' both leave together (when one dies).

**Questioner** : But there is no rule that says that it will remain the same.

**Dadashri** : Not for humans, but it is for the rest.

Know the _prakruti_ and then get Your work done from it. Would it be fun if you are insisting heavily and I am heavily insistent too? No. If I realize that you are being stubborn, then I have to calm down, because the fault is not of the one being stubborn. His _prakruti_ is like that. No matter how much _Gnan_ one has, he will become stubborn indeed as per his _prakruti_.

**Questioner** : Is stubbornness an attribute of the _prakruti_?

**Dadashri** : Yes.

**Questioner** : Is it called _prakruti_ of the ego?

**Dadashri** : Yes, it is of the ego; whose else?

**Questioner** : You said that to become stubborn is an attribute of _prakruti_ , but still say that stubbornness is of the ego.

**Dadashri** : In our _Gnan_ , it is an attribute of _prakruti_. So when one is being stubborn, I look at that as a habit, and therefore I am not affected by that.

**Questioner** : Is _prakruti_ not a snapshot of the ego?

**Dadashri** : This is all of the ego. Not just a snapshot, all of it. Whatever you look at, it is only the nature of the ego.

**Questioner** : So when one says that he is of a very wierd nature, he is stubborn, he is referring to the ego?

**Dadashri** : Then what else?

**Questioner** : _Prakruti_?

**Dadashri** : He does not know to whom he is telling that. He does not know that. He thinks that he is indeed telling the one who lives within him. So he is telling the self ( _atma_ ). All the tricks he uses and all the worldly interaction that goes on, he blames the self (of the other) for it. Because, even the other person says, 'I am this, I am the Chandulal'.

**Questioner** : He says, 'I became stubborn'.

**Dadashri** : He has become set in that belief. And the other one too is set in the belief, and the people around believe that to be true. Really he is 'Chandulal' (the _prakruti_ ) only, but it reaches the Self ( _Atma_ ) ultimately. The main mistake reaches the Self. Otherwise, would anyone chew wood? But they found taste in that too. They buy and chew it.

##  The Main Origin of Attributes of Prakruti

**Questioner** : Something is hot, the other is sweet, is there anything like ego behind that? So how do those attributes of _prakruti_ arise?

**Dadashri** : That is all _prakruti_. Ego came about based on the scirntific circumstasntial evidence.

When it came into this space; that is the taste that happens. It depends on the space. Appearance and everything depends on space. Faces of people look different because of space. What would happen if they all looked the same? One will not be able to find her husband. She will go here and there. If everything looks the same, then when one comes home, he will not find his home. The space is different, so how different is everything. How wonderful it is!

**Questioner** : Different space means that the taste that arise are different, form-taste-smell-touch are different.

**Dadashri** : Taste and everything else, because the space is different, we can get every differtent thing of this world.

If everyone is sweet, where will you find an attorney? Where will you find a hot tempered man? Where will you find a bland man?

##  Complete Understanding of Prakruti

**Questioner** : This _prakruti_ may be in its own nature ( _swabhaav_ ), but even then, the Self ( _potey_ ) is separate from it, is it not?

**Dadashri** : Completely separate. We do not have anything to take or give it at all (nothing to do with it). The One who remains completely separate from it has no problem at all. In worldly interaction ( _vyavahar_ ), you simply have to know the other person's _prakruti_ , what else? _Swabhaav_ (nature). Other person's _swabhaav_ means that you know (that he is a trustworthy man) that this man is here, so you do not have any problem. You know that, even if you leave your coat with him with two hundred thousand rupees in the coat pocket, and go out, there is no problem. That is if you know the nature of his _prakruti_. Careful, you cannot leave it with others.

**Questioner** : One knows _prakruti_ of others, but not his own. That is the cause of all the suffering of pain.

**Dadashri** : Our _mahatmas_ know their own _prakruti_ ; they know everything for sure. Where lies the weakness, where is its strength, they know all that. Still, those who have not delved deeper, they may not know that. _Mahatmas_ with some understanding know everything. And some write long letters (letters of confession), they disclose their whole _prakruti_ in it. Those who write their _alochana_ (recalling and confession of a mistake), they write very long letters and bring them to me.

**Questioner** : One kind of _prakruti_ continues to become thinner (easier), but on the otherside does _prakruti_ become stickier?

**Dadashri** : There is nothing left to become sticky, is there? It becomes stickier only as long as there is ego (charge ego). How can it become stickier without the ego? Without the ego; it automatically begins to become thinner, it starts dissolving.

**Questioner** : Habit of _prakruti_ will change, but what about its nature ( _swabhaav_ )?

**Dadashri** : All the other _swabhaav_ will go away. _Swabhaav_ can be changed if one wants to, but if he does not want to change then everything will remain as it is.

##  Natural Repair in Absence of Ownership

Doctors told me, 'Your liver has become very bad'. I replied, 'Nothing has become spoiled. I happily enjoy _rotla_ and _makhan_ (flatbread and butter cream)'. And the doctor may not even be touching _makhan_. Where is your bad liver? Those in America ask me, 'Should I operate on it?' 'Hey, leave the operation alone. Whose operation are you doing? This is considered a _Gnani_ _Purush_ , the one who is not the owner of the body'. Even there, you do not remain straight? Do you have to do any operation there? You have to do the operation on the one having the ownership.

**Questioner** : Operation is to be done on the one with ownership

**Dadashri** : Yes. And the one who does not have any ownership, what operation does he need? The owner incurs a loss or gain. Here, there is no loss or gain. This is just a show he puts up; there is no ownership. Then what else remains?

**Questioner:** Here, does the repair happen by itself? How does repairing happen for the body, of which there is no owner?

**Dadashri:** The 'home' becomes old and eaten up verily because of ownership. However, it gets old by nature with age, but because of ownership, everything of it becomes spoilt.

**Questioner:** Is the effect faster because of the ownership?

**Dadashri:** No. Because of ownership means, that the natural effects that happen, are claimed as, 'these are happening to me.' Such claims then stick on. Nothing sticks to the one who says, 'It has not happened to me'.

Whatever happens, it happens to Chandubhai, what do 'I' have to do with it? You should say, 'Do not worry Chandubhai, 'I' am with you, am 'I' not?' Try even saying that. Look in the mirror and say, while tapping on his shoulder. No one will come to tap on your shoulder. What will the wife say? She says, 'I have been telling you all along, but what can I do when you do not have what it takes?' Hey, expertise at this age? 'You do not have the expertise!' she jabs. So _sansar_ (worldly life) is like this from its root. Despite being so dark and miserable, why does it ( _sansar_ ) taste good? It is due to _moha_ (illusory attachment).

**Questioner** : Once, it came in your speech, 'this fracture has occurred, but who will repair it?' And you said, 'I moved away from there'. So nature repairs all this.

**Dadashri** : Yes, so there is no choice at all, is there?

**Questioner** : And it will do it very quickly. It healed immediately. As long as one is _tanmayakar_ (become the body-mind form) in it, there is no help from nature.

**Dadashri** : No. Those doctors started to say, 'It hurts a lot after a fracture, why are you not feeling the pain? You put up with a lot of pain.' I told them, 'I do not have any tolerance. 'We' do not have any tolerance at all. Tolerance is an attribute of the ego. 'We' do not have anything like that. Just a small injection settles it down. You can give the injection when you have to settle it down.' So the doctors ask what happened? What is this? Is the _Atma_ (Self) itself? It is separate, and this is separate. So they told other doctors, 'Go, go and see the _Atma_ '. Because 'we' were the same that day as 'we' are today. There is no difference. Doctors may forget, but I do not. In America the doctors used to forget and used to say that we should do this and we should that. I told them that if it came to doing the operation, I will put a stop to that. You will not have it your way here. Do not open this; this case (bag) is not worth opening. What are you going repair of a case that will repair itself naturally? Just as hunger comes on its own, do doctors have to bring it on by doing the operation?

**Questioner** : No.

**Dadashri** : That comes on its own. And it happens because there is no ownership. A gust of wind comes and breaks the windows, so one says that they broke because of the wind. One will break on account of nature, and the second breakage will be of ownership. Why don't you let one break? Influence of the wind should remain. But your effect falls on it too.

**Questioner** : Now, is there a law in nature that the window will get fixed again?

**Dadashri** : It will get fixed for sure. Such law of nature is indeed there. If you remove this hair, it will definitely grow again. Even if it white, it will grow as white.

**Questioner** : Now if one does not keep ownership, and instead this _niddidhyasan_ (varying levels of visualization of the Self) remains; does that do the same job of repairing?

**Dadashri** : It will, it will repair everything. If knowingly and with understandling we leave it alone, then nature automatically keeps doing it on its own. What is the need for a doctor? And if he does come, then do not say no to him. Take the medicine, if he comes and gives you. For that, do not do be preoccupied whole day and night that you need a certain medicine; take it if comes spontaneously and naturally. Tell him not to do the operation. Please do not open this 'suitcase'. There is no fun in this; you will become trapped in this.

##  Prakruti Will Take Best Care of Body

**Questioner** : All circumstances are dependent on unfolding karma. I get everyting automatically. But there is no one else to arrange all that. So is there such energy in _Chetan_ (the Self), or is there enough life energy in the _anu_ (atoms), that reaches all the way there?

**Dadashri** : _Chetan_ (Self) has nothing to do with that. Just like a film runs in a theatre, that is attribute of _prakruti_. It becomes arranged by its nature. If _prakruti_ takes care of you it will do so better than a doctor will. Doctor may even give you unnecessary injection. _Prakruti_ will do a wonderful job of what is good for the body.

**Questioner** : When the body is going to die, no matter how hard a doctor tries, the body will die according to the account of the _prakruti_ , will it not?

**Dadashri** : It will not work at all, will it? Doctor is just a _nimit_ in between. Just as a barber is a _nimit_ (evidence in the process) of cutting the hair, the doctor is similarly a _nimit._

**Questioner** : So _galan_ (emptying, discharging) of his body at that time is actually in his benefit, is it not?

**Dadashri** : It is in his benefit, absolutely in his benefit. _Prakruti_ does not work outside of benefit. Even a stomache it creates, it is in your benefit, because it is removing the disease and not increasing it. It removes it from right now before it becomes a bigger problem later.

After attaining _Gnan_ , one does not become the owner of _prakruti_ , so disease leaves by itself. Disease will not go down if ownership still exists. It will completely go away if there is no ownership. _Prakruti_ will continue to worship purity. As long as there is ownership, _prakruti_ cannot do its work. The owner will not refrain from interferrring, will he? Does owner interfere?

**Questioner** : Yes, he will hold on to it, as an owner.

**Dadashri** : It will interfere. He will treat it; do other things, interfering happens. If one does not interfere, _prakruti_ will continue to become pure ( _shuddha_ ). _Prakruti_ 's nature is to become pure, if one does not interfere. But _aGnani_ will not stop from interfering. You (Self realized) may not, but _aGnanis_ (the one without knowledge of the Self or the doer) will interfere, will they not? Saying 'it happened to me', it will become worse.

##  Karma Troublesome and Prakruti Helpful

**Questioner** : So can we say that it means that one's _prakruti_ protects him, supports him.

**Dadashri** : That is its nature, if there is no interference from you anymore, then _prakruti_ will go ahead and repair it. _Prakruti_ 's nature is to be free from trouble. If any trouble happens, it will stop it. This is because it happens to become troublesome due to the unfolding of our karma. Or it does ego. Otherwise _prakruti_ 's attribute is to be free of trouble. It will immediately cover up any trouble that has occurred.

**Questioner** : So, whatever has been filled ( _puran_ ), it will continue to empty ( _galan_ ).

**Dadashri** : It continues, but _prakruti_ is prone to be free from trouble ( _nirupadravi_ ). Trouble or misery ( _upadrav_ ) is based on our karma. So if you get wounded here, _prakruti_ will immediately move to cover it up.

**Questioner** : Healing process begins immediately after one gets hurt.

**Dadashri** : Immediately, whole machinery is ready. This happens also in the municipality, if there is any damage anywhere, all the machinery of the municipality is employed there. And this is the same. This is unfailing, and that other is all corrupt where half of it will be done and not the rest. Metal and stones for the repair put in places where they are not needed, and not where they are needed, and this is exact and unfailing.

**Questioner** : In that, when you talk about troublesome; what kind of trouble?

**Dadashri** : If someone gets hurt in a bicycle accident, his leg gets a cut, all that problem and misery is as a result of unfolding karma, but because its nature is of healing and to be free from trouble; it covers it (the wound) up, it will builds a healing tissue over it. This healing begins immediately upon an injury. It will stop bleeding, everything.

**Questioner** : Today it became clear, what even the doctors say that they do not do the healing. Healing is done by nature, all we are doing is clean the wound.

**Dadashri** : They just clean the wound, they help; they help the nature.

*****

#  [1.6]

#  Is it Possible to Attain Control Over Prakruti?

##  Controlling is a Mistake

**Questioner** : How can _prakruti_ be brought under control?

**Dadashri** : It is a mistake to try to bring _prakruti_ under control, because _prakruti_ is a result (effect). You cannot control results (effects); you can control the causes. Causes are in your hands, not the effects. So _prakruti_ is in a form of effect. Just as results they give in a school or a college. What if you try to control the result? You can take control of the examination. Do you completely understand the explanation? Do you understand that this _prakruti_ is a result? Yes, causes can be stopped.

You can change anger-pride-deceit-greed. Anything related to causes can be changed. By changing the causes, _prakruti_ becomes weak. So its color-form (its interactive appearance) changes. _Prakruti_ will play its role, but its color (intensity of tone) changes. So it becomes easy (not sticky). So you will feel that even _prakruti_ has changed. No, it cannot change; it is an effect. How can effect change? If effect could be changed, then Lord Mahavir would not have remained to suffer the effect, would he? Why would he stick around to be tortured with wooden nails in the ears? How wonderful is this discovery of effect!

Through recognizing _prakruti_ , you know that this is rose. Can you have control over rose plant such that its thorns will not prick you? You have to carefully extract work out of it; then _prakruti_ will be controlled. When can rose be controlled? The answer is, if you pluck the rose very carefully without being pricked by thorns. You can control it that way. That is how, that is the method 'we' are trying to tell you. But will a rose plant ever change. You will get poked as soon as you stick your hand. Will you not? Will it spare the gardener? It will not spare the gardener; the one who gives water to it. Will it not spare anyone?

##  Control an Untimely Bomb?

**Questioner** : It has been so many years since we attained _Gnan_ , even so, why does _prakruti_ still not stop from playing its role?

**Dadashri** : _Prakruti_ will play its role, will it not? Should you not understand what _prakruti_ is? _Prakruti_ means an untimely bomb. One never knows when it will explode. It will definitely explode. It is not under your control.

**Questioner** : But Dada, still, why does it not come under control?

**Dadashri** : It is not under your control; still you do not have to say that. You will be a fool if you try to control it, and you will be a greater fool if you do not try to control it. So, it is worth understanding this. It will fit when you understand this. Understanding means to keep Seeing what is happening with the _prakruti_.

**Questioner** : When someone says insulting things to me, and even after so many years I cannot maintain control, then what is the point?

**Dadashri** : _Prakruti_ may scream even louder that day. For ten years it would be saying it quietly, and that day it will become very loud, because there is too much powder filled in it. So You should not do any _bhanjghad_ (construct-destruct, interfere) in it. All You have to understand is, can You 'see' it as separate or not? There is no problem if You are able to 'see' _prakruti_ separate. You are free if You can.

Do 'we' not remain separate when someone scolds 'us'? 'We' remain separate when someone praises 'us', and 'we' remain separate when someone scolds 'us'.

**Questioner** : I cannot remain separate at that time. When someone scolds me, I talk back at him.

**Dadashri** : But, even that, You have to 'see' and then Your _dhyan_ (meditation) will gradually become like this. The same was happening to 'us' in this path, and it is happening like this now. Right now, this is what is happening to you, then gradually it will become like this. So You are coming along on this path.

**Questioner** : So it is going to remain like this even in this life?

**Dadashri** : It may even become less in the later part of your life. It is different for everyone, depending on what karmic stock one has. _Pudgal_ means the emptying ( _galan_ ) of what was filled ( _puran_ ), and that is what is going on. Nothing new is being charged (filled), but keep Seeing what is discharging (emptying).

**Questioner** : So many years after attaining _Gnan_ , should we not have control over our _prakruti_?

**Dadashri** : That is correct, but what state would you have been had you not met Dada?

**Questioner** : Then, it is not even worth talking about.

**Dadashri** : Then speak now! There is so much energy to accomplish great things. Yes! So then carefully do Your work if there is any contradiction. _Prakruti_ means machinery, and how can you show obstinacy ( _aadayee_ ) towards machinery? If you tell the machinery, to that gear, 'I created you, so do not obstruct my finger when I touch you', it will cut it off whether you created it or someone else has, because it is a mechanical adjustment. This _prakruti_ is mechanical. So you have to learn from Dada, so that it will weaken the mechanical adjustment. Can that happen or not? You should once understand that from 'us'. This art of interacton ( _bodhkada_ ), means it is an art of _ahimsa_ (non-violence), not of _himsa_ (violence). Yes, it will take one to _moksha_. So do not ruin this life of yours.

##  Will the Result of Gnan Come in This Life or the Next?

**Questioner** : There is our mahatma, he took _Gnan_ and now he does _alaukik bhaavs_ (spiritual inner intents), so will he get the effect (result) of these _alaukik bhaavs_ in this life, or later?

**Dadashri** : He will receive both, now and also later. Results of _bhaav_ (inner intent) are fresh as well as later. It happens later after binding the _prakruti_ , and at the second he will receives the illumination of the light. Does a person not cool down after 'we' give _Gnan_?

**Questioner** : Yes, a lot.

**Dadashri** : It is a result of the _bhaav_.

**Questioner** : Even whole interest will change.

Dadashri: It will all change. It loses its stickiness. And in how many ways You have become free. Now,what is the rush to attain _moksha_. Whatever _prakruti_ one has, it is not going to leave him alone. He has to suffer that _prakruti_ to be free, for sure. One has to understand what he has to do in that _prakruti_? That is all he has to understand. One has come here with bound _prakruti_ , he has bound infinite, much of which he is now free from. He has bound it from all the sides.

##  Nigraha kim Karishyati

Certain part of _prakruti_ is changeable and certain part is not changeable at all.

**Questioner** : What part is changeable, and what part is not?

**Dadashri** : Most of it in not changeable at all. Only a certain part of it is changeable, and what seems changeable, _prakruti_ is not changing; it appears to be changing. Actually, it is already changed. It is also a kind of _prakruti_. But what people say that it changed because of this. That is what seems to them. In fact, it is not changing, it has already changed from within. This is very important to understand. This _Akram Vignan_ is very deep science.

**Questioner** : Does _prakruti_ change after one attains _Gnan_?

**Dadashri** : It will not change before, or even after attaining the _Gnan_. It changes a little after _Gnan_ , but how much? It has already changed previously (in the past life) within, and that is why it changes. A new _prakruti_ is not being formed.

**Questioner** : If _prakruti_ cannot be changed, then how should one interact with beneficial _prakruti_ or unfavorable _prakruti_.

**Dadashri** : 'You' have to See only. 'You' should say, 'Why do you overeat all this?' Why do you eat sour things?' _Prakruti_ is doing that, so You are separate and _prakruti_ is separate. You are not responsible, but it will become your responsibility if you try to stop it. Lord Krishna has said, ' _nigraha kim karishyati_ ', has He not? How are you going to stop it? How are you going to restrain _prakruti_? _Prakruti_ is a discharging thing. I have given such a _siddhant_ (that which accomplishes the ultimate, incontrovertible principle) in writing that you do not have to read anything!

**Questioner** : Yes you have written it that way.

**Dadashri** : The _siddhant_ too is verily in the heart, and it solves the problem. No entanglement will rise at all.

**Questioner** : _Prakruti_ cannot be suppressed that is one thing, then how should one understand _prakruti_? Should we understand it as _jada_ (inanimate, without feelings)?

**Dadashri** : Effect (result) cannot be changed. There is no question of _jada_ - _Chetan_ (matter-Self) in it, is there? Once you have taken the exam at college, is there any way of changing the result? Here, the result is in the hands of these people, still they cannot make too much change. It is without any interference there (during causation in past life), is it not? Result means effect, no change can be made in it. _Prakruti_ gives all the effects, so one cannot change anything. That is why he said in short, ' _Nigraha kim karishyati_ ', but ascetics do not like that. Gnanis understood that _prakruti_ cannot be suppressed; it has to be Seen only. Instead, people are trying to suppress _prakruti_.

##  Habits of Prakruti Will not Leave Quickly

**Questioner** : A man has certain _prakruti_ , or a habit which he cannot get rid of it quickly, is that true?

**Dadashri** : It will not go away. If it has become a habit, then that _prakruti_ will go away after a long time.

**Questioner** : So, what should one do so that it goes away soon?

**Dadashri** : Whatever force it has, it will last as long. If you drop this ball from this height, will it stop suddenly from bouncing? No it will not. So this is like that.

##  Against Prakruti Prone to Addiction

**Questioner** : We say that not a fraction of _prakruti_ is in 'I (the Self)', and not a fraction of 'I' is in the _prakruti_. So why does it not change after attaining _Gnan_?

**Dadashri** : How can it change? Whatever _prakruti_ one has come with, it will remain, will it not? With _Gnan_ , main causal _prakruti_ can be changed, and effective _prakruti_ remains. Then it does not give rise to entanglements. The film will play exactly the way it was filmed. Except the causes part of it becomes loose and non binding. Therefore, nature's arrangement is wonderful.

**Questioner** : No matter the circumstances, _prakruti_ never changes, is that so?

**Dadashri** : What never changes at all is called _prakruti_. It only changes when _Gnani_ _Purush_ destroys all sins, then certain part of it tones down. So after _Gnan_ , Your _prakruti_ is considered changed, otherwise it does not change. That is why people say that Dada changes one's _prakruti_. There are some who drink lot of alcohol, eat meat; they stop doing that the next day.

**Questioner** : What shoud one do to stop drinking and eating meat?

**Dadashri** : It is important that you stop drinking alcohol, and it is best if you do not eat meat because it carries a liability. But when I explain it, one will understand that it is a liability. Then he will stop eating. It is not in your _prakruti_ ; that is why you do not eat it. Thus, you may say, 'I do not eat meat,' but underlying this should not be the sense that, 'I am wiser than these other people.' This brother here used to think, 'I am a bit smarter than him'. Is that smartness gone now?

**Questioner** : It is gone, but I do think about cigatettes again.

**Dadashri** : _Prakruti_ will not let it go away. You have to explain it and you have to let go of it in such a way that systematically those _parmanus_ (subatomic particles) do not remain in the body. Even its root should not remain. If you suddenly stop, then root and other thing will still remain.

##  Strong Intent Changes the new Prakruti

**Questioner:** The unchangeable insensitivity ( _jadata_ ) that is in one's nature, has become strong and inflexible due to advancing age. Some are angry and some are greedy. So until one tries to improve his nature, _satsang_ is not going to happen for him.

**Dadashri:** What it is, how much change has occurred in nature of the _prakruti_ today from what it was, when you were young?

**Questioner:** It has changed quite a bit.

**Dadashri:** It happens based on its development. It will not happen if you try to do so. Nature of _prakruti_ will change as circumstances keep changing. But _prakruti_ will not let go. You cannot change the nature of _prakruti_. It is the circumstances that keep changing. Such circumstances should come together. Whenever you see an egoistic _prakruti_ , it will only be in ego, and one with greedy _prakruti_ will be in greed from the second he is born to the time he goes to the final station (on funeral pyre). If they have prepared wood for his final station, he will say, 'Use that wood, and only so much wood, okay. The rest is for the house.' He will make that clear and then die. Because he has greed, does he not? So that is nature of his _prakruti_.

**Questioner:** Does the _prakruti_ decrease, go down?

**Dadashri:** When it becomes less, you are still not the one doing that. That does not happen with _purushartha_ , it becomes less based on scientific circumstantial evidence, or it increases too. _Prakruti_ is not under Your control. So all You have to do is, 'Wow, so much greedy _prakruti_ , it is not going to let me become free the entire life.' So, the _bhavna_ (inner intent in discharge) you have to make is, 'whatever wealth I have, may it be spent for the salvation of the world.' If you do such _bhavna_ , then fruit of it is that your mind will be vast and charitable in the next life. This life the _prakruti_ is spoilt, this life is gone like that, but at least improve the next life. So, seeing this _prakruti_ , you should improve the next new one. This _prakruti_ is cautioning you to improve your next one if you do not like the current one, otherwise leave it alone if you like it. Therefore, all you have to do is to do the _bhavna_ only, nothing else.

One man tells me that he does not want to crush anyone. He asks me, 'what should I do so that not one living being ( _jiva_ ) gets crushed under my car?' So, I told him, 'Do _bhaavna_ with _nischaya_ (firm determination), that this should not never happen in any situation. Make such _bhaavna_ so strong that it remains present all the time within you. Then, they not will die through you.

So, this world is a fruit of your own _bhaavna_. Sow good seeds of _bhaavna_ , so that you reap good fruit.

Not a single person wishes that even tiniest living being (insect etc) die under his car, and yet they get crushed under his car. Why is that? If you ask someone, 'If you are driving on the road, and suddenly some man runs across the road, what should you do?' he will say, 'what can I do? That kind of situation happens, that he will be run over.' It gives the fruit within. He left an opening (laxity in determination), and its result comes. You should have a _nischaya_ that no matter what happens, even if the car gets destroyed, but no one should die under my car. This is all yours. God has not interfered in this. It is all your own projection.

Now, you can bind any kind of _prakruti_ as you will. _Prakruti_ is bound according to the _sanskar_ (influences, impressions) you receive. So, you will bind good _prakruti_ if you remain within good _sanskar_ , and bad _prakruti_ if you remain within bad _sanskar_. If you want only worldly happiness in this world, _kalpit_ (transient) happiness, then make others happy. If you give happiness to every living being, you will receive happiness while sitting at home (without having to do anything).

##  Can One's Nature Change in This Very Life?

**Questioner** : Dada, is this nature of the _prakruti_ or the ego?

**Dadashri** : It is of the _prakruti_. Ego is part of the _prakruti_. _Prakruti_ means (its) nature ( _swabhaav_ ). If this man's nature is formed, it is decided, then in that nature, it will give fruit accordingly. Then it will not give any other fruit. If it is not in his nature to accept a bribe, then he will not accept a bribe no matter how hard you try. Even if he accepts it, he will return it.

**Questioner** : Can that nature change later?

**Dadashri** : In his every nature, as many divisions there are, if any of those divisions is going to end, it will change.

**Questioner** : But can it change by itself?

**Dadashri** : It will change by itself.

**Questioner** : If one knows that his _prakruti_ is like this, is it then possible for him to do _purushartha_ to change that nature, if he wants to?

**Dadashri** : There is no other _purushartha_. Whatever is going on within, that is _purushartha_. _Purushartha_ is going on within one, to put in words we say that one 'did' _purushartha_. However, when it happens, know that through this _purushartha_ the favorable result happened.

**Questioner** : Even that one is woven into it, is it not?

**Dadashri** : Yes. This 'I am doing _purushartha_ ' is a kind of ego.

**Questioner** : So, _prakruti_ will show its nature when circumstances come together, it again will show its nature when circumstances come together, this way it comes to an end, is that so?

**Dadashri** : Yes, if some end has come (of some nature), then it will be finished.

**Questioner** : But even if one has a sticky _prakruti_ , he too is going to come across circumstances and open up the _prakruti_ ; does _prakruti_ wear down a little at that time?

**Dadashri** : Of course it will. It will continue to wear down for sure. That is the rule.

**Questioner:** Even after taking _Gnan_ , the nature of _prakruti_ (the relative self), cannot change, can it?

**Dadashri:** It can change, yes. The results of rise and fall, remain within the _prakruti_ only, meaning it may change in someone, and the entire _prakruti_ (the non-Self complex which includes the dying ego) calms down. This is because it _prakruti_ may have arrived at its concluding stage and that person (the ego) may think that he did the _purushartha_ (effort).

This _prakruti_ is not such that, it has to be this way only. It will follow as much you explain to it. _Prakruti_ was formed and bound in the past life and then it had become tough. It can mold if someone were to explain to it. But it can change within the limits only; it cannot change beyond that. If you had made a decision that, 'I want to do service to saints.' Then when you meet any saint you would serve him and your _prakruti_ will change, so this is how you would have made a decision. Decision was not made from point to point that, 'it should be this way only.' It is just that if a person who would have made a deep inner intent in the last life, that, 'I want to keep the _prakruti_ as per _gnan_ '; for him _prakruti_ will change, if someone gives him the _gnan_ that it is good to serve the saints. It will change for a person who had made such deep inner intent.

##  Prakruti can Change with Gnan

**Questioner** : When can one's _prakruti_ change?

**Dadashri** : It will not change even when he dies. _Prakruti_ will never change. _Prakruti_ will change according to however much _gnan_ (knowledge) arises, however much understanding arises. _Prakruti_ changes according to _gnan_ , but it still remains as _prakruti_. Man cannot come out of the _prakruti_. _Prakruti_ of this life will not change at all. Based on whatever _gnan_ manifests within, in this life, _prakruti_ will change for the next life. Then based on whatever _gnan_ manifests in the next life, _prakruti_ will change for the life after that. It goes higher, step by step like that. But one cannot come out of _prakruti_. _Sadhu_ - _sannyasis_ (ascetics, monks), saints, they are all in _saatvik_ (relative purity) _prakruti_.

One cannot come out of _prakruti_ , and the one who does come out of the _prakruti_ , he is called a _Gnani_ _Purush_ or God, that is all.

**Questioner** : Can _Gnani_ _Purush_ change _prakruti_?

**Dadashri** : _Prakruti_ cannot be changed; _gnan_ (knowledge) can be changed. A place of living, home can be change but _prakruti_ cannot be changed. You were living in the home of _prakruti_ , from there you have been placed in Your own (the Self) home. _Prakruti_ will continue to play its role, but by making it sit next to 'us', the _prakruti_ will change completely.

One whom 'we' _Gnan_ ; his _prakruti_ will end within ten-fifteen years. During the rest of his life, _prakruti_ that seems contradictory will not be there. Then it is _prakruti_ that is convenient for others. _Prakruti_ becomes mild and pleasant, because that other _prakruti_ empties out. And _aGnani_ (the one without knowledge of the Self and the doer) fills (creates a new one) while the old _prakruti_ is emptying. This means on one side _prakruti_ is emptying (discharging), and at the same time on the other side, _prakruti_ is filling (charging). These people (the ones who have knowledge of the Self and the doer) do not create anew. They only have discharge, so it will go away.

There is _samvar_ (no influx of the new karma) and _nirjara_ (discharging of karma) after one attains _Gnan_. So they do not come across anything else. And for others, there is _bandha_ (influx, binding of karma) as well as _nirjara_ (discharge). Therefore, they continue binding again. That is the state of _aGnani_ (those without _Gnan_ ). So it will not go away till they die. On the contrary, _prakruti_ increases.

**Questioner** : If one tries to understand it and try to remove it, only then will it go?

**Dadashri** : How can an _aGnani_ remove it by himself? He is himself bound by the _prakruti_ , he will not understand _prakruti_ at all that his _prakruti_ is wrong, because the ego will find even wronng _prakruti_ to be right. Ego is always blind; therefore it does not have any awareness of the right or the wrong. And _buddhi_ (intellect) will misuse it. It will tell the ego, 'That is correct, what you are saying is indeed correct.' So the ego follows blindly. So one cannot see a single fault of his own self.

##  How is one to See his Prakruti?

**Questioner** : You have said that the _prakruti_ is to be 'seen' only, and it will not change at all now, then there is no question left at all (about changing it).

**Dadashri** : To 'See' _prakruti_ means You are to See the one flying the kite. 'You' keep Seeing the one flying the kite, from afar. And You say, 'Wow, Chandubhai with so much pride energy you flew the kite'. That is considered Seeing, it is considered Knowing the _prakruti_. Do you do that? What Chandubhai eats, You keep Seeing that wow, he eats lots of chillies, he does not eat certain _daal_ , he stuffs himself with _jalebi_!

##  Against the Prakruti Which Does not Respect any Boundary

**Questioner:** What if the _prakruti_ is not under any control?

**Dadashri:** The one whose _prakruti_ is not under any control will be given a taste (!) by the _prakruti_ itself, directly. We will not have to go teach him anything. The one whose _prakruti_ stays within bounds and control, it will give rise to happiness and the _prakruti_ , which does not respect any bounds and goes beyond control, will promptly bring pain to the owner. Try to face off with a policeman, with an uncontrolled _prakruti_ , you will get the result right there and then only. Wherever you see, at home also, everywhere if one has _prakruti_ , which does not respect boundaries; it will punish the owner directly and promptly. A person with an uncontrolled _prakruti_ would be running around. At last he will come to his senses after learning his lesson, stumbling and taking a beating for his mistakes.

**Questioner:** In short I am interested in knowing if it is better to have control over the _prakruti_ as opposed to no control.

**Dadashri:** If it remains under control then it is best. Uncontrolled _prakruti_ will hurt one definitely. Having a _prakruti_ that remains under control is ideal, and the _prakruti_ will remain under control with _Gnan_.

**Questioner:** The _prakruti_ will remain under the control with _Gnan_ , naturally? Is that so?

**Dadashri:** There is no such word as natural ( _sahaj_ ) here; it will remain so with _Purushartha_ (being the Self, progressing as the Self). The one for whom it remains under control naturally, his work is done; nothing else remains for him!

##  Settle the Prakruti With Equanimity

'We' eat what is agreeable to 'us'. _Prakruti_ will not leave even if we ask her to leave. _Prakruti_ will not go away.

**Questioner** : Can one change _prakruti_ if he wants to?

**Dadashri** : _Prakruti_ will not change, and whatever changes, it does so because it was going to change.

**Questioner** : Does that mean that it can be changed?

**Dadashri** : It cannot be changed at all. After attaining the _Gnan_ , it can be settled with it with equanimity. _Prakruti_ cannot be changed. If _prakruti_ could be changed then it would be all over (!) A 'changer' would be required, no? And if one becomes the 'changer' (ego complex) , then it is all over. That is the destruction of _Gnan._

##  Prakruti Becomes Utterly Soft with Gnan

**Questioner:** But Dada, _prakruti_ can become soft with _Gnan_ , can it not?

**Dadashri:** It will become utterly soft, because the light of the _Gnan_ does not go in it. All this runs in the presence of the Self. Now the Self is there, its presence is there, but its light does not go in it, does it?

**Questioner:** It does not go, so the _prakruti_ ...

**Dadashri:** It becomes soft. _Prakruti_ will work in the presence of the Self, but the light will not go in it.

**Questioner:** What does 'light will not go in it' mean?

**Dadashri:** Power is gone from it. _Prakruti's_ power becomes cold. It becomes soft. One becomes angry, that is only _prakruti_. If you do not say a word, and _prakruti_ is becoming angry, we call it _gusso_ (anger without violent intent). And if _prakruti_ and ego together do it, we call it _krodha_ (anger with violent intent). So the ego does not go away, it is its power. Ego does not go away from the other also, does it? That is not power. Powerless _krodha_ does not scorch anyone, it will not burn.

##  Live and Life-less Prakruti

So, how we should conduct in this _prakruti_ , we can do that much with _Gnan_. If You do not interfere, then _prakruti_ cannot do much. When does _prakruti_ do anything? It is forceful only when You are involved in it. When You become separate, then _prakruti_ continues to dissolve forever. It has become life-less ( _nirjiva_ ), has it not? That other is a live _prakruti_.

**Questioner** : Does it come alive when we interefere?

**Dadashri** : Yes. He will also be awkward. With the karmic stock within, it can also be awkward.

**Questioner** : So can _prakruti_ improve after attaining _Gnan_?

**Dadashri** : It will lose its power. _Prakruti_ will not stop at all from playing it role. But as it becomes separate, it can become lifeless; it is like life has been removed from it.

**Questioner** : It becomes lifeless but its effect will continue, will it not?

**Dadashri** : Even the effect continues only if you are weak. Otherwise, every living being lives through _haavbhaav._ From that the _bhaav_ has to be taken out, so then it will live with _haav._ People ask, 'how were the _haavbhaav_?' In this the _bhaav_ (intent-view) is ours, and the _haav_ (external activity through mind-speech-body) are of _prakruti._

**Questioner** : What does _haav_ mean?

**Dadashri** : Everthing besides _bhaav_ (intent, view) is _haav_. _Bhaav_ is of the worldly interacting self ( _vyavahar atma_ ). Everything else is the _haav_ is of _prakruti_. 'We' remove the _bhaav_ when 'we' give you _Gnan_ , do 'we' not? Then ego remains lifeless. So _bhaav_ (charge) ego gets pulled, then _dravya_ (discharge) ego remains. _Bhaav_ (charge or causal) _prakruti_ goes away and _dravya_ (discharge or effect) _prakruti_ remains.

**Questioner** : In the eyes of the others, our _prakruti_ remains the same, no?

**Dadashri** : That cannot be changed. But he will know that there is no _bhaav_ (hurtful ego) in it. So he will not be hurt much. He will feel hurt only if there was _bhaav_ (living ego) in it. He will feel hurt even if there is only _bhaav_ , and no _haav._

##  Nature is of Prakruti, and Doership is of the self

There is only nature ( _swabhaav_ ) in a fan. This cannot be changed. No matter how many _mantras_ (chants that affect the mind) you evoke, how many _tantras_ (bodily tactics) you do, even then nothing will change. And in humans there are both, nature ( _swabhaav_ ) of _prakruti_ and doership ( _kartapanu_ ). When one attains _Gnan_ , doership goes away leaving only the nature ( _swabhaav_ ). Doership becomes less. So you feel, 'Wow, how much it has changed. His nature has changed.'

**Questioner** : Will the nature not change if doership is gone?

**Dadashri** : No. That nature then gradually comes to an end. It is like throwing a ball. It will bounce high, then less higher and that way it will stop bouncing. After attaining _Gnan_ , the doership part changes. So you feel that it has changed. But nature does not change. Because doership changes, you feel that this nature has changed. We believe all that to be nature ( _swabhaav_ ). We believe it to be nature of _prakruti_ ( _prakruti swabhaav_ ).

**Questioner** : I did not quite understand that. What did you say?

**Dadashri** : Doership indeed goes away with _Gnan_ , and so only _prakruti swabhaav_ remains. That is why we believe- know that it was like this before, and why has it changed? Nature ( _swabhaav_ ) that was with doership has changed. So you feel that it has changed, but it has actually not changed. In it, certain part of doership is gone with _Gnan_.

A child has only _swabhaav_ (nature), and as he gets older his _swabhaav_ is associated with doership. When that doership goes away, then only his _swabhaav_ (nature) remains. But we think that his nature has changed. We talk about nature with associated doership in it. When it changes from that, we think the nature has changed.

**Questioner** : So after that doership is gone, main nature of the _prakruti_ will remain?

**Dadashri** : That will remain for sure. Then it gradually starts being demolished, because there is no other 'income'. After throwing a ball, it will slowly begin to 'demolish' and stop from bouncing. It will start again if it is thrown again.

**Questioner** : What is the nature of doership? Please explain it with an example?

**Dadashri** : A man will become angry with his son and also with the enemy from outside. That is the nature of _krodha_ (anger), and what is the doership like towards the son? When it is towards the son, it is for the benefit of the son, and if it is towards the other person, then it is for his own benefit. So, _krodha_ (anger) with his son binds merit karma ( _punyai_ ). Father burns his self internally for the betterment of his son. _Krodha_ means to burn. When that nature of doership goes away, then only anger ( _krodha_ ) remains.

_Krodha_ will happen even when nature of doership goes away. However, it too is a lifeless ( _nirjiva_ ) thing. It is considered alive ( _jivant_ ) only when doership is associated with it. When your doership goes away after attaining _Gnan_ , then this _krodha_ will not be painful at all. Bite from an ant or mosquito is not considered painful. Bite from a scorpion is considered painful. So it ( _krodha_ ) is like ant or mosquito. Bite like that from a scorpion is gone. All the tubers, all the madness is of the ego, which Dada gets rid of for you.

##  If You 'See' Then You are the Boss and if You do not 'See' then Prakruti is the Boss!

**Questioner** : Suppose someone's _prakruti_ is of an interfering _dakhodakhal_ (interference in what is unfolding) type, and unrelentingly so, and then he rationalizes by saying, "my _prakruti_ is like this only," such protection is simply not to be done, no?

**Dadashri** : Know ( _jaano_ ) the one who is protecting and taking sides. The protector is the _prakruti_.

**Questioner** : To exercise _purushartha_ (being the Self), one has to make _prakruti_ a horse and ride on it with the rein in hand. Having refused and chided it once, and twice, if it does not pay heed, am I not to understand that it has taken the seat on me, is riding over me? So then, how am I to regain the dominance-control over it?

**Dadashri** : As long as You can See, You are the rider, and when You cannot See, then it is riding over you.

**Questioner** : That means that when I See this bad _prakruti_ I am really in charge for sure. Suppose my _prakruti_ is of the suspecting type, amidst the unfolding of such circumstances, when suspicion arises, then that _prakruti_ is totally bad, because one must not harbor any suspicion. So at that time what should I do to straighten up this _prakruti_?

**Dadashri** : 'You' should become straight.

**Questioner** : Does that mean to let it do whatever it does?

**Dadashri** : Yes.

**Questioner** : But in general it seems that I am seeing my own _prakruti_ , what _prakruti_ is doing from morning till night!

**Dadashri** : You have to only See the _prakruti_.

**Questioner** : And it happens that if I see around then I see the other's _prakruti_ too.

**Dadashri** : Everything will be seen. That which is evident needs to be Seen. Who is looking for any mistakes? _Prakruti_ will present to be seen. What is called a mistake in _prakruti_?

**Questioner** : Dada, it is such that due to many past habits, sometimes I will say, 'such thing should not happen, this that happens I must not do it, etc.' such words come out.

**Dadashri** : No, it is not so. Who sees mistakes in _prakruti_? The one who still has some attributes of illusion. Otherwise, there is no such thing as a mistake in the home of the Lord. Everything is _gneya_ (that to be known, that which is front of the Self) only. There is no such _bhaav_ (feeling, view) that this is good and this is bad, in the eyes of the Lord. There is no duality. So there, this worldly vision is not to be employed. So 'we' continue 'seeing' the bad too, very nicely. 'We' would see everything but our intent will not spoil inside. Our _Gnan_ will not spoil. Society has made this distinction of good or bad. What might be bad for us may be good for another person. I would like to eat _jalebee_ **(** sweet and flavored golden rings fried to crispness) and you might not prefer that. So where is the question left of good or bad? It is just that it is necessary to understand the facts from the _Gnani_. 'We' remain constantly like this. You should express your problems and ask a question and I would answer. Everything was an in illusion, was it not? Where did the good or the bad not exist?

**Questioner** : We had done same thing until now, no?

**Dadashri** : No, not like that. This was in illusion only, was it not? But as one does the setting, all this will unfold. And then as you ask, it will come out. As you ask and inquire further, more will come out. Then after a time, one forgets, and then it returns again, to be forgotten again. Thus it keeps on decreasing. What is the ultimate stage? It is that in which, You See and Know what Chandubhai-the worldly self is doing. And what has happened is correct. These two represent the ultimate stage. Is it possible to be in that stage or not?

**Questioner** : It is possible.

**Dadashri** : Hmm, what then, is next? Therefore, we have got the thing (the Self) in our hand. Where is the problem when you have gotten hold of the kite (goal of final liberation) in your hand, what does it matter even if it takes a few wild downward spirals towards the ground? Just by mere pulling on the string (5Agnas) it will fly. In the pre- _Gnan_ stage you did not have the string in your hand at all. How could you ever control its downward spiral and free fall?

**Questioner** : When can one say that rein of _prakruti_ has came in his hand?

**Dadashri** : The day the _prakruti_ obeys and reverses, is the day when it becomes known to You, that now it is becoming malleable and that its reins have come in Your hand. Can you not see 'our—Dada's' _prakruti_?

**Questioner** : The _prakruti_ can be seen, but it cannot be molded or changed.

**Dadashri** : That means it is in some excess. As long as it disobeys, You have to hold the reins. In this manner, sooner or later it will obey and turn around. No one can defeat the one who wants to defeat the _prakruti_ at all costs.

##  Know Also an Awkward Prakruti

Have you had any such experience?

**Questioner:** Yes. I had for sure, Dada. I would run to be first for the shower, this I can see more during _jatra_ (pilgrimage).

**Dadashri:** He will be selfish ( _swarthi_ ) in everything, for going up, going down. His calculation is always different.

**Questioner:** His attention would be preoccupied in this only; his awareness is there only.

**Dadashri:** Let it be so for the _prakruti_ , but because you like it, the one within is still are not as aware. Now You understand because I explained to you. Every time it ( _prakruti_ ) should understand. It should not be like this. Why it is happening like that? Therefore, whatever happens, it is _prakruti_. But You should know why this happened, this should not happen.

**Questioner:** Then that is _prakruti_.

**Dadashri:** Yes. Yet, why do you hurry to take shower, why do you hurry to eat early, all that should be in Your awareness. Should it not? That means there was no awareness that is why this mistake had occurred. This _prakruti_ unfolds the way one has brought it from past life.

He who used to get up at 6:30 AM, is pacing back and forth since 5:30 AM, then know that he is a selfish one, _mooah_! He is calculating, let me use the toilet first, otherwise someone else will get in. We would know that, no? That he is selfish is not a problem, but one should have _jagruti_ (awakened awareness) for that. The awareness that what is happening is wrong. His _prakruti_ is like that. Everything is such that even the _prakruti_ cannot be seen. He will gradually progress by staying in _satsang_ and with the inner intent of service to people.

##  This is the Big Garbage That Hinders

Your garbage is different, and his garbage is different.

**Questioner** : Is garbage not the attributes of the _pudgal_? Some of it, one does not wish for it himself. So these are all the attributes of _prakruti_ , are they not? Good or bad, you are saying that they are attributes of the _pudgal_?

**Dadashri** : It is not a problem if they are of the _pudgal_. But there is so much of influence of _pudgal_ on the self ( _atma,_ worldly interacting self) that it has stopped the movement of the self. It has become confined. There is so much influence of the _pudgal_. The self can become free if fifty percent of this influence goes away. Then the self will become strong, filled with energy.

**Questioner** : But you say, 'Not a single attribute of _prakruti_ is in 'I' (the Self), and not one attribute of 'I' is in the _prakruti_ '.

**Dadashri** : Yes but, it is not in You but _tarapanu_ (absolute 'I-ness') should remain, should it not? The One who does not believe a single attribute of _prakruti_ is 'His', and knows all His attributes is a ' _Gnani_ '. If he believes even one attribute as his, he will become trapped in worldly life ( _sansar_ ). There is too much pressure from the _prakruti_ , is there not? _Prakruti_ is such that leave alone matters of the Self, it will makes him become an animal.

**Questioner** : Dada just said, his garbage is different; your garbage is different. What is in our garbage? What is it like?

**Dadashri** : Everyone's garbage is different. They will stink too. There is no fragrance to it. But these garbage will leave. Sooner or later, for the one who has such desire, it will leave.

**Questioner** : It will leave in your presence, will it not?

**Dadashri** : Yes, but for some it may not leave, even in my presence.

**Questioner** : You say that, but it will leave if one wishes, will it not?

**Dadashri** : Yes, he may have the desire, but then after a while he will say that he does not understand it. That is the end of that; he is back to where he was before. Based on which 'thermometer' are you asking? One thermometer is not correct. If he is looking at his thermometer, it may be showing that he has a fever of 102 degrees. Nevertheless if he is here, he will attain the Self.

**Questioner** : Whoever comes at the feet of Dada, he will attain the Self for sure, will he not?

**Dadashri** : Yes, his work will be done for sure.

##  Prakruti Dissolves in Samayik

If You became _Shuddhatma_ then the _prakruti_ becomes natural. Natural means it will not let one create any interference ( _dakhodakhal_ ) and after becoming natural it means it is _vyavasthit_. So 'we' will not tell you to drink poison because you had a bad thought. From now onwards, a bad thought that comes would be Known and a good thought that comes would also be Known (by You). But now how can all this dissolve? Certain things cannot come under the control. You are saying that there are things that will not dissolve. We have to make a way out for that. Certain things can dissolve if You sit for an hour with _gneya-Gnata_ (that to be known and the Knower) relationship. The kind of _prakruti_ you want to dissolve can dissolve this way. So sit for an hour and become the Knower ( _Gnata_ ) and see that which is to be known ( _gneya_ ). So the _prakruti_ will dissolve gradually. So it is possible to dissolve the total _prakruti_ here.

*****

#  [1.7]

#  Purify Prakruti This way...

##  Prakruti Writes and Purush Erases

**Questioner** : Will all this _prakruti_ , anger-pride-deceit-greed, remain in lower life forms too?

**Dadashri** : Yes, in the _devagati_ (life as celestial being), in every life form, wherever you look, this is the same _prakruti_. They are called karmic tubers ( _granthis_ ). And when they go away, one is called tuber-less ( _nirgrantha_ ).

So one is bound due to these tubers. What do they make one do? There is no solution for it. When one gives _Gnan_ like ours, and gives You some control over those tubers, then one can become free of them, that this is separate, and You are separate. These tubers are separate, and Chandubhai is separate, and all this is separate. Now keep 'seeing' all that. Ours is a wonderful science. So there is bliss without having to work hard, is it not?

**Questioner** : But what is in _prakruti_ can be recognized only when you show us, right?

**Dadashri** : Yes.

**Dadashri:** Our science will show you everything; that this is greed here etc., because the Seer 'sees' it after separating. Chandubhai's greed will not go away, but You will know that Chandubhai's greed is not going away. So then You can instigate a little bit, can You not? Make him understand somehow and make him give five to twenty five thousand rupees somewhere.

**Questioner:** Do the solutions to disconnect and be done with _prakruti_ , go in the part of _Purushartha_ (that which is of the Self and lets one remain as the Self; the five Agnas of the _Gnani_ _Purush_ )?

**Dadashri:** Yes, of course. If You explain it somehow or the other, it moves on. It is not possible to see one's own _prakruti's_ mistakes, because _prakruti_ cannot see _prakruti's_ mistakes. Anger-pride-deceit-greed, ego or intellect cannot see the mistakes of the self. The self is the _prakruti_ so one cannot see the mistakes of the self. The ones that are visible are the very huge mistakes that exist. There are infinite other mistakes. One is nothing but warehouse of mistakes but one cannot see them; if one starts seeing the mistakes then one can become a God.

With what aid does one start seeing mistakes after attaining _Gnan_? Through _pragnya_ _shakti_ (liberating energy of the Self). One starts seeing mistakes through _pragnya_ _shakti_ which has manifest from the Self ( _Atma_ ). When the mistakes are 'seen' then, You immediately bring about the closure. You would say to the self, 'brother, do _pratikraman_.' When that _pragnya_ _shakti_ shows the stains then You should say, 'wash it off.' So you should wash away all the clothes. Once you do _pratikraman_ for all the stains, all gets cleansed.

**Questioner:** Dada, grant me the energy not to paint anything again on this slate which has been erased.

**Dadashri:** _Prakruti_ (the non-Self complex) writes and _Purush_ (the Self) erases. _Prakruti_ will write by mistake and _Purush_ will erase it. _Prakruti_ will not refrain from writing and You became a _Purush_ , so _Purush_ will erase by doing _Purushartha_. This was the discovery of the _Vitarags_ (the absolutely enlightened Ones). This is because _prakruti_ cannot do _Purushartha_. Only _Purush_ can do the _Purushartha_.

_Prakruti_ will keep opinions, keep everything but You have to become free from opinion. _Prakruti_ means, your _charitra_ _moha_ (discharging illusory conduct) will keep the opinion, but You should become free from the opinion. _Prakruti's_ filled stock is coming out.

##  Against Angry Prakruti

After _Gnan_ when one becomes angry with someone due to the force of _prakruti_ , but immediately behind all this, where is he? He is in, 'this should not happen', that is the intent; and the people of the world are verily in the intent (state of) of what happens. So there is a lot of difference between the two. For you everything proceeds with agreement, does it not?

**Questioner:** It happens. Later the current opinion separates from the old one.

**Dadashri:** But after how long? Awakened awareness should come within one or two hours! But such junk _karmic_ stock has been filled that prevents this, and one does not know anything. Do you not feel that way? In how many hours should the awareness come? In two, four, or even twelve hours, You should become aware that, 'This is wrong.' But here, even when 'we' tell you, You do not realize it. This still happens in so many instances, but You are not aware of it. 'We' would know right away that this one has gone in the wrong direction. Would 'we' not know this? Despite that, 'we' allow it to continue. But 'we' also know that eventually, everything will work out fine.

##  One who is Aware Infront of Prakruti is a Gnani

**Questioner** : How much does _prakruti_ help in maintaining awareness?

**Dadashri** : The Self will help.

**Questioner** : So if _prakruti_ is in a quiescent state ( _upsham_ ), then it will help the awareness, is it something like that?

**Dadashri** : That will happen by itself. If it is in his unfolding karma, then it will become calm. The awareness that comes after it ( _prakruti_ ) becomes quiescent is not very helpful. When awareness prevails when _prakruti_ is not calm, when _prakruti_ is fighting back; one is called _Gnani_.

**Questioner** : But state of _Gnani_ arises only when _prakruti_ goes from the state of quiescence ( _upsham_ ) to when it comes to its end ( _kshaya_ ), does it not?

**Dadashri** : All aspects of it will end. That which resists and opposes (You) is coming in order to end. So tell it, 'go ahead and oppose (be in front of 'Me'). To quieten and calm it down, means to 'kick the ball back', it will return. Whatever is the demand of the 'collector' pay it off then only the resolution will come, otherwise, the demand will return. The 'boss' (collector) has come; hey you, why don't you pay up the five thousand and be done with it? The boss has come, and he is asking for it. But he wants to send him back, so he is flattering him, as if he is going to let him go. Will he let him go? He will not, will he? On the contrary, he will drink your tea, and belittle you with his arrogance. He drinks your tea for free and the debt is still standing; that is _upsham_.

##  Tubers of Prakruti Obstruct Light of Gnan

**Questioner** : Suppose there is a tuber of greed, at that time the light of the _Gnan_ becomes dim, is that so? So light of the _Gnan_ is based on _prakruti_? It is going to increase or decrease, or does it also increase-decrease based on the awareness ( _jagruti_ )?

**Dadashri** : _Prakruti_ creates obstacles for it. You have been given full light of _Gnan_ , but _prakruti_ interferes in it.

**Questioner** : Interfering that _prakruti_ does, is that based on his past karma?

**Dadashri** : That is it, what else? That verily is _prakruti_ ; past karma itself is _prakruti_. 'We' do not enter into such interference so 'we' do not have such interference ( _dakhal_ ).

**Questioner:** What should I do there?

**Dadashri:** No, You are not to do anything. Whatever wrong-right happens, continue with _pratikraman_.This whole path is of _pratikraman_ only. This is the path of shoot-on-sight _pratikraman_. If your _pratikraman_ happens shoot-on-sight, then only you will accomplish, otherwise you will not.

##  Stop, not through pressure but through understanding

Whatever karmic stock one had filled, that much stock he indeed, has to purify.

**Questioner** : How can I say how much stock I have?

**Dadashri** : That You can tell, can You not? Thoughts of _prakruti_ all these, will come, its fragrance and everything will come. Their evidences will arise, coming events cast their shadows before. This is not a path of forcing _prakruti_ , is it? Man will apply pressure if there is ego, will he not? And will that pressure remain? You never know when it will rebounce.

**Questioner** : If _prakruti_ is not to be pressured, then should it be allowed to dance away?

**Dadashri** : You cannot let her dance at all, but do not pressure it. It should be made dull. The tendencies will stop, if one understands that there is no value - meaningful attribute in anything. They will stop automatically. If the understanding takes a firm hold within that there is no ultimate value-meaningful attribute, it is harmful, then the tendencies will stop. Try and make it understand.

##  Do not believe sweetness in discharge prakruti

_Prakruti_ of any kind of activity has arisen, so do it as long as the _prakruti_ make you do it, but do not encourage it. Do not take pleasure ( _rasa_ ) within, from it. This is not beneficial activity. Whatever activity (work) you can do, it is discharging, but do not take the pleasure (interest arises from pleasure) that you are taking in it. It is not something worth taking any pleasure from. It will make you wander and throw you away. That tastes sweet, it is tasteful; it will take you down.

This _prakruti_ that has arisen, you are not the doer of it right now. It is simply 'discharge'; therefore 'we' will not scold you. 'We' will neither scold you that this is what happened, nor encourage you. The mind may wonder that something unusaul has happened here. Then you will confuse and ruit it. Without understanding, you will not know how much medicine you should give to someone, and it is not your job to give medicine to anyone you please. All of this is _prakruti_ ; see it without interest ( _udasin bhaav_ ). Do not take a lot of interest. You should 'see' that this _prakruti_ does not harm anyone.

You should do the work that is yours. This is a _prakruti_ filled with karma effect, that is your load and liability through no choice. You have no choice. It will find out the wrong thing, and go there, where it derives a taste, and finds it sweet. And this sweetness is _prakrutik_ (generated through non-Self complex) sweetness; it is not of the Self. There is still a lot more to do.

**Questioner** : Please tell us in more detail.

**Dadashri** : All of you follow these five Agnas; go deeper within them only. You still cannot follow the five Agnas properly, can You? 'We' say this and that to adjust to you. By this I mean, we show that 'we' are pleased, even when 'we' are not.

**Questioner** : This is the reason for telling you about all the mistakes that happen. We will definitely find the right guidance here; such is our strong faith. This is the reason not to hide anything here.

**Dadashri** : When you feel the sweetness, you will start hiding it. Otherwise, you will ask 'us' as long as it is in the beginning. And then when you experience much sweetness, you start hiding it. Be alert and then proceed.

##  Pardon the Prakruti

**Questioner** : There was a statement of yours in your _satsang_ that one can forgive one's own _prakruti_ (the non-self complex), but one cannot defend or protect it. Please explain this difference by giving examples.

**Dadashri** : If you defend, side with and protect it then you went along with _prakruti_ only. Thus you become the owner of _para_ (the non-Self). If _prakruti_ did something wrong, then it can be forgiven, because You remain as the Self and forgive it, whereas in the other, you become the self, the _para_ (the non-Self, _prakruti_ ) and then you have to protect it. One becomes the owner of the non-Self. No matter what kind of mistake has been committed, it can be forgiven. To forgive one can remain separate as the Self, whereas in the other, the protection happens only as the owner of the non-Self, becoming the non-Self. To side with is verily becoming the owner of the non-Self. One becomes a member of that side. And to forgive, one does not have to take any sides. To grant forgiveness is indeed the _swabhav_ (intrinsic nature) of the Self.

**Questioner** : What does it mean that we can forgive _prakruti_ by staying in _swabhav_ as the Self?

**Dadashri** : No matter how wrong the _prakruti_ is, there is nothing better than forgiving it. All other ways make one _tanmayakar_ (to take the form of body-mind). Therefore, if it can be forgiven, then one can remain separate. If one protects the _prakruti_ that is bad, then he slipped on to its side. If one protects or takes sides, the _prakruti_ grows increasingly. When _prakruti_ that presents is suitable, then the process called _raag_ (attachment) has happened. To take its side ( _uparanu_ ) means _raag_ for _prakruti_. To protect ( _rakshan_ ) the _prakruti_ , that too is attachment.

**Questioner** : Forgive this _prakruti_ only, what does it mean?

**Dadashri** : The one who is doing the _pratikraman_ , he is doing it, is he not? He asks for forgiveness for the mistake, which has happened. The one who does _pratikraman_ is _prakruti_ and the one who grants the forgiveness is God. So the one who asks for forgiveness is separate and the one who forgives is separate. The two of them have no relationship. And there is a big relationship in protecting. Only where there is a tremendous relationship, the protection happens.The one who is the doer of _pratikraman_ does the _pratikraman_ , does he not? So whatever mistake is made, he is asking for forgiveness for that. So the doer of _pratikraman_ is _prakruti_ (the non-Self complex) and the forgiver is the God. So the one who is asking for forgiveness is separate and the giver of forgiveness is separate. There is no other relation between the two. And there is a close relationship in protecting. Only where there is a tremendous relationship, the protection happens.

**Questioner** : Yes, he will not protect without attachment _raag_.

**Dadashri** : Call it _raag_ (attachment) or whatever. But the closest relationship is where one is the owner of the _para—_ the non-Self, and there he will not refrain from protecting it. There is no other word left for protection, is there?

**Questioner** : That means the _prakruti_ is not to be nurtured or protected?

**Dadashri** : Yes, after becoming the Self ( _Atma_ ) _,_ to side with and defend the _prakruti_ is wrong, isn't it? If one gives any weight to its side, then one has become of that side for sure. This trouble has arisen by protecting the _prakruti_ and taking its side, and now _pratikraman_ reverses it, cleanses it.

**Questioner** : You gave us this _drashti_ (vision) for cleaning it all, yet why is it that one ends up taking sides and protecting the _prakruti_?

**Dadashri** : That is indeed because you are still on the side of _prakruti_. 'We—the _Gnani_ ' cannot take the side of _prakruti_ even for a second. There is readiness to forgive the _prakruti_ the second a mistake is 'seen'. Any protection given from now onwards is a grave mistake. If one conceals, that is also being partial; it is also a mistake. If you say, "Dada, this is wrong." Then I should readily admit, "Brother, it is wrong." If I use other words to protect or do _vakilaat_ (plead like a lawyer) it is a mistake.

**Questioner** : To cover up is a weakness.

**Dadashri** : It is a mistake indeed.

**Questioner** : And Dada, one can forgive the _prakruti_ of another person. Can one forgive one's own _prakruti_?

**Dadashri** : That can be done, for sure! One must forgive it. If you do not forgive, then there is no other way that is this easy.

**Questioner** : Dada, this forgiveness also means it is a kind of a judgement.

**Dadashri** : Yes, call it a judgment or whatever you want. This judgment is on the basis of the _prakruti._ There is no judgment in _Gnan_. Judgment exists over there, where egos are traded.

**Questioner:** How can one forgive the _prakruti_?

**Dadashri:** There is no need to be irritated with _prakruti_ , or anything else. One should not to be irritated with or to take the side of one's own _prakruti_. And granting forgiveness means not to have attachment or abhorrence, have _vitaragata_ (absolute state beyond attachment-detachment). The bad—(offensive) will come out for sure. This may happen to the _Gnani_ even, on a rare occasion, but 'we' would become instantly _vitarag_ towards that.

Whatever happens through _prakruti_ , what is it all about? It has come to _udaya_ (unfolding). Whatever _prakruti_ has to suffer (pleasure or pain) that is what you are suffering. Whatever I speak, the mind might say, why did I speak this? But it will not do, because it is simply not under 'our' control, it is already woven into the (now unfolding) _prakruti_ and hence he will speak for sure, and 'we' are to continue 'seeing' that. Do you understand what I am trying to convey? If this is understood completely, major work will be accomplished!

##  Be Glad Where you can see the Mistakes

Who can bind the one who does not want to be bound?

**Questioner** : That is fine, but what if one cannot see all the sides of his _prakruti_ , then...

**Dadashri** : If he cannot see them, then he will see them even through suffering of pain.

**Questioner** : Only some, the part that cannot be seen.

**Dadashri** : Those will be seen in the next life. How can you see all of it? Celebrate the ones you can see with a party, that you can see at least these many. You will not be able to see the rest. You can see some, can you not?

**Questioner** : Heaps and heaps are seen.

**Dadashri** : So then then throw a party for everyone (celebrate). Follow the language of God. Do not see what is not (with you); see what you have.

**Questioner** : So when some of it is seen, that could not be seen before, then it feels that this kind was only seen today. Then I feel that there must be quite a bit like this, still remaining in there.

**Dadashri** : That is fine, but you have to celebrate for what is now Seen. Where is it, how can it ever be Seen? It is not so easy to See.

**Questioner** : Sometimes we get such a vision from Dada that shows a completely different direction. Just in a talk, in an ordinary _satsang_ , or individually too, we get such vision which begins to show us a new direction that, 'Wow! I missed this corner!'

**Dadashri** : In the _satsang_ general talk comes out, it is not addressing one individual. In that, it is different for everyone, different for each individual.

##  The Gnan or the Gnani, Removes Prakruti.

Even this will have to be understood completely. In the presence of thousands of people, when someone says,'Chandubhai does not have any sense', and You feel like blessing him, 'Wow, 'I' knew that Chandubhai does not have any sense, but now even he knows that!' Then that separation will remain.

'We' call this brother ( _bhai_ ) everyday, some days 'we' don't call (acknowledge) him, why is that? It is so that he will think that why is it like this today? That is when he will realize that he can remain separate. 'We' give such keys (turns and adjustments). 'We' elevate him and make him fall, lift him up and drop him, and so this way he will attain the _Gnan_. All these activity of ours are so that one attains _Gnan_. It is after seeing the differing _prakruti_ of each individual. 'We' have done all that, having seen everyone's _prakruti_.

**Questioner:** Yes, according to the _prakruti_.

**Dadashri** : It should be only like that, should it not? That _prakruti_ should go away, right? One will have to get rid of _prakruti_. How long can something that belongs to someone else, stay with you?

**Questioner** : That is correct. There is no choice but to get rid of _prakruti_.

**Dadashri** : Yes. Nature removed it for 'us'. _Gnan_ removed it for 'us'. Yours will go away only when 'we' remove it for you, will it not? 'We' are the _nimit_. Much of it is gone. You still have to do _pratikraman_ at night, don't you? Therefore you have mistakes, which you will have to remove slowly. You know that afterwards, don't You?

If 'we' do not call you by saying, 'Come over Chandubhai', then You have to understand that you have been cautioned. And when 'we' speak, _prakruti_ continues to leave. When we say, 'Come over Chandubhai', then _prakruti_ jumps. It shows off the false pride. But then, (with this molding) it will not bind you again. You do not become _tanmayakar_ (become one with) in it. That is why again 'we' do not say anything one day, so that it comes down.

**Questioner** : These are all the medicines?

**Dadashri** : Yes.

**Questioner** : Dada does not have any _raag_ (attachment) or _dwesh_ (abhorrence) in this.

**Dadashri** : There will be some _prakruti_. Some good people have to be told, 'we' have to maintain this; otherwise they will destroy everything. People are meddlesome, are they not? Therefore 'we' have to remain biased. 'We' are actually _vitarag_ , but we have to remain biased, for that reason. No one should be hurt or harmed. In this manner, through the pressure, if it works well for even one person, it is worth it. Should one not be placed on the path of ease?

##  The Nature to Become Involved in Prakruti and Prakruti are one

**Questioner:** _Swabhaav_ and _prakruti_ are two names for the same thing or are they different?

**Dadashri** : If _swabhaav_ (nature) has become _pudgalmaya_ (one with non-Self complex), then _swabhaav_ and _prakruti_ is one and the same. And it is the _prakruti_ that we call _swabhaav_. This person's _swabhaav_ (nature) is like that, so it is his _prakruti_ that we refer to as _swabhaav_. It is actually not _swabhaav_ , because _swa_ (Self) _bhaav_ (view) is God ( _Shuddhatma_ _Bhagwan_ ). Really the Self (God) is in _swabhaav_. But one has a wrong belief, that is why he says that, 'I am like this, I am a collector, I became so and so.' And thus continues to suffer beatings because of that.

_Swabhaav_ and _prakruti_ are considered the same. But it is possible for _swabhaav_ to be mild. It is _prakruti_ when the cow does not attack, and it is _prakruti_ when it does attack. When a man is hitting another person, at that time it exists within that what he is doing is wrong. I am doing the wrong thing is _gnan_. And the one hitting is the _prakruti_.

**Questioner** : Now, when we say, 'You come into your _swabhaav_ ', who are we telling that?

**Dadashri** : That _swabhaav_ is different. There, we are telling one to come into _Paramatma_ _swabhaav_ (into the absolute Self). You are in a different state, in the wrong state. You are in the worldly state, in the non-Self state (state of _prakruti_ ). Come to your own state; in the state of the Self. 'You are a _Paramatma_ (absolute Self)', come into that state. God, or no one else has the licence to take anyone's licence. The one who comes into his own state, he becomes _Paramatma_.

**Questioner** : 'You come into Your _swabhaav_ , means to becomes free of _raag_ - _dwesh_ (attachment-abhorrence). That can happen if one comes out of doership.

**Dadashri** : It is like this, this _Shuddhatma_ (pure Self) is who You are, and that is Your state. Now you have moved away from that, and so you have to become that state (Self) by 'seeing' that. By understanding that, it is _akriya_ (not involved in any activity), it is like this, and it is like that, become that form. This _vyatirek_ (external, not intrinsic) attribute has arisen, and your belief has arisen in that. So by seeing this, you have to become that form (the Self).

##  Prakruti will ultimately show Godly qualities

No human being will refrain from showing his nature ( _swabhaav_ ) As long as one has not attained the Self, the nature of the Self ( _Atmaswabhaav_ ) cannot be seen. One can see only the nature of _pudgal_ (the non-Self complex).

When the (pervasive influence) nature of the _pudgal_ finishes and it becomes like the nature of the Self , when it ( _pudgal_ ) 'imitates' the Self in exactness, then it can be said that One has attained completion ( _purnahuti_ ).

**Questioner** : So the main Self is 'visble', and one becomes like the Self?

**Dadashri** : Yes. I have helped you become free from insistences ( _aagraha_ ). You were not becoming all this because of that greatest of inner pull ( _khencha_ ). Yes, there should not be any pull of any kind.

**Questioner** : So. Does 'like mimicking the main Self', mean _gnan_ (knowledge)- _darshan_ (vision) _-charitra_ (conduct)?

**Dadashri** : Just as that _Gnan_ - _darshan-charitra_ and _tapa_ , here in worldly interaction ( _vyavahar_ ) there is _gnan_ - _darshan-charitra-tapa._ There, it is all ideal. There is no insistence-pull etc., there. There is no pain at all, no destruction-construction type problems ( _bhanjaghad_ ).

**Questioner** : No, but this worldly interaction ( _vyavahar_ ) means it is all residual _pudgal_ , is it not? So then which _pudgal_ does _pudgal_ effect? So when all the imitating play of the _pudgal_ , when all the natures ( _swabhaav_ ) of the _pudgal_ come to an end, and then again...

**Dadashri** : Is this _pudgal_ of mine not higher than yours? As it goes higher and higher, and when my four degrees (deficiency) goes away, then its form will look like God ( _Bhagwan_ ). This includes my conduct and everything here. So even the body becomes God. Even the body of the _Tirthankara_ had become God. That is why people on the outside accept it, do they not?

**Questioner** : So the body within is the same, but does it change in the middle? Let the body remain the same. Where does change happen in the four degrees?

**Dadashri** : It is because of the body within, people see the weakness here. People see the weakness here because of the four degrees lacking. There are clothes, a ring; the hair is combed. This eating and everything you see, that will not be seen.

**Questioner** : So those four degrees that change.

**Dadashri** : Then it is such that even the other person will not have any doubt.

**Questioner** : Internally, there is complete three hundred and sixty degree. Is it not?

**Dadashri** : Of-course that will be so, will it not?

**Questioner** : Then what?

**Dadashri** : Even this conduct should become like that, should it not?

**Questioner** : Is that considered nature ( _swabhaav_ ) of the _pudgal_?

**Dadashri** : Yes, it is nature of the _pudgal_ , but it will become as if it is imitating that of God. So that is God, and this will also look like God. People will say that he indeed is God.

**Questioner:** Will this whole relative part (that evident to the world), become like a God? Will the whole _prakruti_ become like a God?

**Dadashri:** Yes, if others see such forgiveness, such humility, such simplicity and straightforwardness, and such contentment like a God. There is no effect of any thing at all. There is no component of 'I-ness' ( _potapanu_ ). All the attributes can be seen by people. Lot more attributes will express and be evident. These new qualities are neither of the Self, nor of the _pudgal_ (the non-Self). Such attributes will arise.

Forgiveness is neither attribute of the Self nor the non-Self, natural forgiveness ( _sahaj_ _kshama_ ). If someone were to become angry, 'we' do not have to grant forgiveness, forgiveness flows naturally. But he can understand that He (The _Gnani_ and the fully enlightened Lord within) have forgiven him. Therefore after critical analyses 'we' can understand that 'we' do not have any concern (give and take) in this.

**Questioner:** You mentioned this for the forgiveness, how it would be for straightforwardness ( _saradta_ )?

**Dadashri:** Yes, straightforwardness would be there too, no? Even though other person's condition is the opposite, it will appear correct to the straightforward person. Such straightforwardness! Such humility! None of this has anything to do with the Self!

**Questioner:** So once anger-pride-illusion-greed dissipate, is that the reason such attributes manifest?

**Dadashri:** If one has contentment instead of greed, people will say, 'see, he does not want anything at all.' Whatever is available it is fine. When such attributes are manifest within a person, he is called a God.

**Questioner:** When people notice such straightforwardness and forgiveness at that time, where is one then?

**Dadashri:** He will be in the state of the main Self ( _mooda swarupa_ ). When the conduct of the _pudgal_ (the relative self) appears like this, people will say, 'Oh ho ho, what natural forgiveness he has!' Look at this, someone was to insult Him, there is no reaction on his face. And they will utter this proverb too, ' _kshama virasya_ _bhooshanam_ (forgiveness is the ornament of a brave person).' Hey, he is not just brave or it is not even forgiveness. This here is simply a God!! Again they will say forgiveness is the entrance of the _moksha_ (liberation). Hey _mooah_ (mortal), not this forgiveness, that natural forgiveness. Nothing can bring about the improvement as the forgiveness does. The way people can be changed with forgiveness, nothing else will. No one can improve by physical beating. So forgiveness is the ornament of a heroic One.

##  Ultimately Even Prakruti Becomes Like God

_Prakruti_ will become free only when it becomes like the Self, otherwise it cannot. People will call _prakruti_ God, it will become like God. It will be a wonderful _prakruti_ ; it will not hurt anyone. When it becomes God, You will be able to become free. It, _prakruti_ has started to become God. Has _prakruti_ changed from what it used to do before, or not? That _prakruti_ is becoming God right now.

Lord Mahavir's _pudgal_ eventually became God, and that is when he became free. You will have to make it God.

**Questioner** : Is it the same rule for everyone?

**Dadashri** : Yes, one cannot be cursing others and become God, can he?

**Questioner:** I asked because there arose the talk about the non-Self _pudgal_ and _pudgal Gnani._

**Dadashri** : That is a relative self, is it not? Relative self will look like God. When people are convinced that it is God, then one will become free. Is it possible for relative self to be cursing and become free?

**Questioner** : So is it _prakruti_ itself, or the _pudgal_?

**Dadashri** : _Prakruti_. Everything besides the Self, is all _prakruti_ , and _prakruti_ is itself _pudgal_.

**Questioner** : Before going to _moksha_ , everyone's _prakruti_ must come into that stage, according to the rule?

**Dadashri** : Yes, but only then people will say that he is _sarvagna_ (the One who has Known everything). External _prakruti_ will indeed become like that.

**Questioner** : The ones you give _Gnan_ , those _Purush_ are different. Those who do not want to bother giving others the _Gnan_ , but they want to go straight to _moksha_ , they too have to bring their _prakruti_ to the level of God and then leave?

**Dadashri** : Everyone, there is only one method, is it not? There cannot be two methods. Paths may be different, but the method is only one.

**Questioner** : Now are we going to have the inner experience of that thing in this life or not?

**Dadashri** : Why are you talking about this life? It will automatically happen in one or two life times. Where the Vision has changed, it will not take long at all.

**Questioner** : So Dada, does everyone have to bother with all this?

**Dadashri** : Only then will it all become clear, will it not? In the _kramic_ path much ego has to be purified. In the _kramic_ path, _parmanu_ of anger-pride-deceit-greed will not remain.

The Self within is God indeed. Outside is the _prakruti_ , make it _vitarag_. People are making it a _vitarag_. If they know the path that makes it easier to do so, then they will find the end. This _prakruti_ also has to be made _vitarag_. Lord Mahavir's _prakruti_ is always _vitarag_.

_Prakruti_ is ultimately to be made _vitarag_. But after attaining the _Gnan_ , You do not have to do that, it will happen automatically. If one remains in my Agnas, then _prakruti_ will continue to become _vitarag_. You do not have to do anything. If you have to do anything, then you become the doer again. It happens by You remaining in the _Agna_

##  Who Comes First in Naturalness?

**Questioner:** After attaining this _Gnan_ , does the _prakruti_ become _sahaj_ ( _natural_ ) or as the _prakruti_ becomes _sahaj_ the _Gnan_ starts to manifest, what is the sequence in that?

**Dadashri:** When 'we' give this _Gnan_ , the vision ( _drashti_ ) changes and then the _prakruti_ starts to become natural ( _sahaj_ ) and later on becomes completely natural. Once the _prakruti_ becomes _sahaj_ , the Self is verily natural and then it is done, so both became separate. And as the _prakruti_ becomes _sahaj_ the external part (that visible to the world) becomes a God. The One within is verily the God, in everyone.

**Questioner:** Our _prakruti_ is unnatural ( _asahaj_ ).

**Dadashri:** There is no problem with that; you had charged (filled) this _prakruti_ before meeting me.

**Questioner:** The _prakruti_ should become natural, no?

**Dadashri:** It will become natural once You remain in this _Gnan_.

_Prakruti_ is settling ( _nikal_ ) only, it will come to an end by itself and the new _prakruti_ is getting filled (charged) in 'our' presence and if someone's _prakruti_ happens to be strong then he will have a couple more life times to spend, yet, within one to two more lives everything that had been multiplied (charged), will start to dissipate.

**Questioner:** From Your vision ( _drashti_ ), is this charging (filling) of the _prakruti_ from here on clean and good? Our vision (drashti) is changed but the new _prakruti_ which is going to form will it be proper or not?

**Dadashri:** Now there is no reason to harbor any doubts, is there? If You become Chandubhai (the non-Self) then you know that there will be a doubt. But that is not in your faith ( _shraddha_ ) at all, is it?

##  Interference Creates Unnaturalness

**Questioner:** With _Gnan_ the understanding arrives, but does the _prakruti_ get destroyed?

**Dadashri:** No, _prakruti_ will keep doing its work, _prakruti_ of the _Gnani_ would be separate; a hundred percent separate.

So why can we call someone a _Gnani_? We do so because His _deha_ (body) is in natural state and _Atma_ (the Self) is in natural state, both are in natural state. There is no interference. If it creates interference then it is unnaturalness ( _asahajata_ ).

Even now whatever interference is happening, that much unnaturalness remains and it needs to go, and You are aware of that too. You are becoming unnatural, You do Know that too. You also know that You need to stop being unnatural. And You also know that you are to stop this unnaturalness. You also know that how can this stop, You do know everything.

**Questioner:** Even then we are not able to implement.

**Dadashri:** That will come gradually, it will not happen right away. Have you seen this safety razor that is available for the shaving, if you just apply superficially, does it mean is done? It will take some time; it will take some time for everyone. If you use it thus (Dadashri gesturing a slicing activity), will it happen?

**Questioner** : It can make a slashing cut.

**Dadashri:** It takes time for everyone.

*****

#  [1.8]

#  Knower-Seer of Prakruti

##  Awareness Increases with Agna and Satsang

**Questioner** : Dada, do we have to let go of our _prakruti_ or not?

**Dadashri** : That is all, nothing else. You are to continue to See what _prakruti_ is doing. When _Gnani_ _Purush_ separates You from _prakruti_ , he makes You a _Purush_ , You just have to keep Seeing the _prakruti_. As long as you were in, 'I am definitely Chandubhai', you were in the _prakruti_. Unfolding of past karma happens, You have to 'see' that unfolding. Whatever work _prakruti_ is doing, mind is doing, intellect is doing, You are to See all that. But instead, you interfere and disrupt inside. 'You' have to See what interfering disruption it (ego, _prakruti_ ) is doing, but instead,You too get into it. instead. There verily is the weakness.

**Questioner** : Dada, what is the solution to make that stronger?

**Dadashri** : You just have to attend _satsang_ and _Agna_ , that is all. If there is a mixture of these two, then it will happen.

Now, _prakruti_ is considered _mishrachetan_ or _powerchetan_. What does _powerchetan_ mean? There is no _Chetan_ (the Knower-Seer Self) at all. Power had arisen in it, just as when you put something in front of a heater, will it get hot or not? The heater does not have any desire to make it hot.

**Questioner** : You said that _prakruti_ is _mishrachetan._ If the part that was charged (in the past life) meaning, if it discharges (current life) completely, what remains then?

**Dadashri** : _Prakruti_ itself is the part that is charged. So _prakruti_ indeed comes to an end when it discharges completely.

_Prakruti_ will discharge everything. Then, that is exactly what 'we' say that you will have to leave (die) _mooah_ (O mortal one), why are you trying to hurry? You will have to leave, when it discharges completely. So I asked, 'do you want to go early'?

**Questioner** : So Dada, _prakruti_ 's nature is to keep discharging?

**Dadashri** : Constantly. That verily is its nature.

**Questioner** : So, _prakruti_ simply needs to be Seen continuously, and that is what you are saying. _Prakruti_ continues to discharge, and You keep Seeing that, so then sooner or later it will come to an end.

**Dadashri** : Yes, one continues Seeing it. Some _prakrutis_ may be crazy, some may be wise, some part crazy, some part wise; there are all kinds of _prakrutis_. You have to keep Seeing all those _prakrutis_. One person may keep eating _kadhee_ (soup), another person may keep eating _daal_ (lentil curry), another may keep eating sweets; You have to keep Seeing all that. Attributes of _prakruti_ ; You have to keep Seeing the attributes of your _prakruti_. Would You not know that?

**Questioner** : Of course I can, why not? Just to remain in _upayoga_ (applied awareness), right?

**Dadashri** : Yes, keep Seeing.

**Questioner** : Has each person brought his own _prakruti_?

**Dadashri** : Yes, he has brought _prakruti_ with him. _Prakruti_ means that which he has recorded (in past life) and brought with him. Therefore, the record will keep playing whole day, the way it had been recorded. Your record plays for you, his record plays for him. Have you not heard your record? Have you? Is that so! Did you like it very much? You would not like it, would you? So, this man likes his record. Do you not like it? _Prakruti_ means a recording, so it will play whole day like that. You have to keep Seeing that.

**Questioner** : Does _prakruti_ becomes less as 'I' See it?

**Dadashri** : Becomes less means that the seed will not be sown again. If you feel that these opinions have caused you to become entangled within; then See that. _Prakruti_ will attain purity when You See. _Prakruti_ becomes pure as You See the _Shuddhatma_ (pure Self).

**Questioner** : As long as I do not See the _prakruti_ , it will not become 'less', is that so?

**Dadashri** : One will not go to _moksha_ (become absolutely free from _prakruti_ ) as long as one does not See _prakruti_.

**Questioner** : If I continue to See my own _prakruti_ , will purity come into it?

**Dadashri** : Then, You are considered to have become the Knower-Seer ( _Gnata_ - _Drashta_ ). To See your own _prakruti_ is itself the Knower-Seer state. To see the trees-leaves, all those things, that is not Knowing-Seeing. Even _buddhi_ (intellect) can see that, it is 'knowing' through the senses ( _indriyagamya_ ); but through the Knowledge ( _Gnan_ ) beyond senses ( _atinidriya_ ), one can See the whole world as it really is.

**Questioner** : Now to lessen this _prakruti_ , _Gnani_ helps us change the vision, does he not?

**Dadashri** : 'You' (the Self) are separate and this ( _prakruti_ ) is separate. Now, You have to See this _prakruti_. Just as you see a movie in a cinema, You can See what the mind is saying, what different thoughts it is thinking, in this _prakruti_. It is a movie; You are to just see the movie. It is _gneya_ (that which is to be known) and You are the _Gnata_ (Knower). It is a relation of _gneya_ - _Gnata_. That is the movie (film) and 'I ' (the Self) am the Seer; both have become separate.

##  Prakruti's Gneyas subtle, subtler...

**Questioner** : Is it true Dada that after one has seen all the _gneya_ of _prakruti_ , then do those exact _gneyas_ become evident and visible?

**Dadashri** : There are many _gneyas_ that remain to be Seen after that. There are those in the middle. There are all kinds of _gneyas_ of the middle. First, there are the gross ( _sthul_ ) _gneyas_ of _prakruti_.

**Questioner** : What kind of _gneyas_ are there in the middle?

**Dadashri** : _Sukshma_ (subtle) and _sukshmatar_ (subtler), they are all of the _prakruti_ ; they are a mixture like _mishrachetan_.

**Questioner** : So then what do anger-pride-deceit-greed go into?

**Dadashri** : That is all _sukshma_ (subtle) _prakruti_.

**Questioner** : Then are we to See those _gneyas_? Those actually can be seen Dada, we can see some of this and also the other.

**Dadashri** : No, no, they are not Seen. If one Sees them, then his face will not show changes (sulking, anger etc). The ones that are very gross are Seen. The subtle ones are not Seen, are they? The face continues to show the effect indeed, does it not? As You See them, more and more, later You will See all the later _gneyas._ When You See the _prakruti_ , then it (the Seeing) will move ahead a lot better. _Prakruti_ is what obstructs everything. Can You See your _prakruti_?

**Questioner** : I can see the gross part, the big part.

**Dadashri** : Nothing gross is Seen. What gross, the big part, can You See?

**Questioner** : I can know where an effect happens, and what happens.

**Dadashri** : Do You Know what your _prakruti_ will do after you get up? Do You Know what your _prakruti_ was doing? What _prakruti_ will do, now what it will do, now what it will do, do You Know within? Hey, not my _prakruti_ , I even Know what your _prakruti_ will do. I Know the _prakruti_. After you get up, it will do everything time to time. It is not worth keeping awareness of time. Continue to See what is happening.

##  Saiyam Means not to Saiyam Means not to Become one With Prakruti

Now anger-pride-deceit-greed will not happen, because these are not the attributes of the Self at all. So our _mahatmas_ (those who have attained the Self through _Gnan_ _Vidhi_ ) are considered _saiyami_. _Saiyami_ means, one's own opinion arises in opposition of what this _prakruti_ (non-Self complex) is doing; such a one is a _saiyami._

When the _prakruti_ becomes angry, the awakened One within does not like it. So that opinion that becomes separate is the _saiyami_ , 'it should not be like this, this obstinacy should not be there'. _Prakruti_ will continue to play its role. The _asaiyami_ (the one who is under the control of _kashaya_ ), will play a role by becoming one with _prakruti._ The _saiyami_ will keep the _prakruti_ separate; he will continue to keep _prakruti_ separate. That which becomes one with ( _tanmayakar_ ) the _prakruti_ is separate. In all this; the _saiyami_ is the one who separates through a different opinion in what the _prakruti_ is doing. No matter how the _prakruti_ is, but the one who does not become one with the _prakruti_ is called a _saiyami_.

**Questioner** : Is it necessary to have contrary opinion to the opinion of the _prakruti_ is, or is it necessary to become Knower-Seer ( _Gnata-Drashta_ ) of it?

**Dadashri** : It is necessary to become Knower-Seer. Knower–Seer is considered the ultimate. It is a high level. It takes long to attain such a high level. And what does an opinion separate from _prakruti_ mean? 'It shold not be like this'. Dislike will keep arising.

**Questioner** : So with that, one will progress in the direction of the Knower-Seer.

**Dadashri** : He progresses ahead, then later on that side, the Knowing-Seeing becomes 'full-sight' (absolute), when it happens.

**Questioner** : That is the 'full sight'; before that the opinion has to be changed.

**Dadashri** : But, we consider that the Knower-Seer indeed, from the view of the Self ( _Nischaya_ ). It begins from here.

**Questioner** : The One who does not become absorbed in ( _tanmayakar_ ) _prakruti_ verily is the Knower-Seer ( _Gnata-Drashta_ ).

**Dadashri** : That is verily the Knower-Seer.

##  Prakruti Makes one Dance

**Questioner** : So we can say that, nature of the _prakruti_ makes one do all this. Even when one does not wish to do it, he is dictated by his _prakruti_. _Prakruti_ makes him do it.

**Dadashri** : Not only does _prakruti_ makes him do it, but it makes the 'top' (human being who is unwinding like a spinningtoy) dance. These are all 'T-O-P-S'. Everyone is dancing and _prakruti_ makes them dance. Whether one is a president, or he is an ordinary person, they all dance to their _prakruti_ , and they do the ego of 'I danced'.

**Questioner** : What if we nurture the view ( _bhaav_ ) of Knower-Seer?

**Dadashri** : Then the salvation has happened, no? One is then considered to have come into the nature of the Self ( _swabhaav_ ). One's nature is not of doership at all; it is of a Knower-Seer. And He becomes trapped with it by believing that he is the doer. That is all there is, and that is why the world life remains standing.

**Questioner** : In the Gita, when Arjun says that he will not fight, Lord Krishna tells him that 'you will fight by your nature, by your _prakruti_ , you are going to fight for sure'.

**Questioner:** In the Gita, when Arjun says that he will not fight, Lord Krishna tells him that 'you will fight by your nature, by your _prakruti_ , you are going to fight for sure'.

**Dadashri:** Yes, no one will refrain from acting according to his _prakruti_ , will he? Even Lord Krishna acted according to His _prakruti_ , did He not? There is no choice, is there? _Prakruti_ will not leave anyone alone. One only changes his opinion through _Gnan_. When one is subsurvient to the _prakruti_ , _raag_ (attachment) will not stop from happening. If his opinion changes that this does not suit him, then he is free.

##  After Doership is Gone Divine Karma Remain

**Questioner** : Even after the Self becomes separate, _prakruti_ continues to do its own work.

**Dadashri** : _Prakruti_ will continue to work as per its nature. The Self is not needed in that, only its presence is necessary. Presence means the light of the Self.

**Questioner** : After the _Shuddhatma_ (pure Self) becomes separate, divine transformation ( _divyakaran_ ) of _prakruti_ too should happen, no?

**Dadashri** : When the same kind of transformation of _prakruti_ happens, they are considered _divyakarma_ (divine karma). Then, the karma that remain are _divyakarma_ (divine karma). There is no owner, there is no ego; therefore they are called _divyakarma_.

**Questioner** : But what the world accepts as a _Brahmagnani_ (Enlightened One) such as Vishwamitra; even his _prakruti_ did its work. That _prakruti_ does not let go of its hold sometimes, it does not let go even after _Gnan_ ; it continues to do its work.

**Dadashri** : There is no problem. There is no problem with what _prakruti_ does. 'You' have to keep Seeing what _prakruti_ does. It just has to be Seen. The nature of the Self is _Gnata-Drashta_ (Knower-Seer). For You, after attaining the Self, You have to continue to See the _prakruti_. For You, the ego ( _ahamkar_ ) is gone, illusory attachment ( _mamata_ ) is gone, so what is left then? When anger-pride-deceit-greed do not happen at all; that is called _Gnan_.

##  Against the Force of the Prakruti...

**Questioner:** Why is there so much force of _prakruti_ (the non-Self complex) that it makes one forget the 'Seeing'( _jovanoo_ )?

**Dadashri:** That much energy of the Self is lacking. If the energy of the Self ( _Atmashakti_ ) is dominant, then despite any kind of forceful _prakruti_ , the Self will become separate.

**Questioner:** The energy of the Self is the same in everyone, is it not?

**Dadashri:** The extent to which one remains as the Self ( _Atmarupa_ ), that amount of energy will be there. To what extent one remained the Self?

**Questioner:** Who has to become the Self ( _Atmarupa_ )?

**Dadashri:** The Self only, the Self (the one who has awakened) has to become that, no? The Self only! The Self that has been given to you, The _Atma_ that 'we' have given to You, is verily the original Self ( _muda Atma_ ).

**Questioner** : I didn't understand, how to attain the energy ( _shakti_ ) _._

**Dadashri:** The energy will increase, will start to manifest in direct proportion to the amount of _Agna_ You follow. The energy of original _Atma_ is same in everyone but the varying energy that arises, is in direct proportion to the following of the _Agna_. This energy will increase gradually and reach its maximum state.

**Questioner:** As long as the force of _prakruti_ exists it prevents the following of the _Agnas_. Everything has risen due to the _prakruti_. The desire to follow the _Agnas_ is there.

**Dadashri:** There is no problem with _prakruti_ , if one decides; does _nischaya_ , then everything can be settled. You 'the Self' are _Chetan_ (Knower), and _prakruti_ is _nischetan Chetan_ (non-Self complex, mixed or energized consciousness, mechanical _chetan_ ). So what can this _nischetan Chetan_ do to the _Chetan_?

**Questioner:** As long as they are together, the obstruction arises.

**Dadashri:** If You become stronger then it will not become obstructive.

**Questioner:** So after attaining this _Gnan_ the one who 'sees' ( _joovey_ ) the _prakruti_ , who is that?

**Dadashri:** That verily is _Atma_ the Self, the One who has awakened, who Sees this, who else would that be? Everything is on the head of _Atma_. _Atma_ here means _pragnya_ the energy of the _Atma._ Here you should not consider the main _Atma_ again. _Atma_ here means _pragnya_ that does all the work in the beginning, but 'we' do say _Atma_ , that is only for the sake of speaking.

**Questioner:** Is it considered to be pure when it Sees the _prakruti_ or is it considered pure ( _shuddha_ ) when it Sees the elements ( _tattva_ ) of the _prakruti_ the non-Self?

**Dadashri:** From the time one becomes the Self, the elemental form ( _tattva swarupa_ ), and begins 'Seeing' the _prakruti_ , then the _prakruti_ (the non-Self complex) too became pure ( _shuddha_ ) _._ The _prakruti_ cannot be called pure as long as the ego exists.

You have now become _Shuddhatma_ , You have become _Purush_ , therefore you have become worthy of attaining _moksha_ and yet you cannot attain it, why is that? What _prakruti_ says, what the _pudgal_ says is, 'You have become pure, but I was pure too and you spoilt me. So make me pure again too, then only you wil become free, otherwise according to the rule you will not become free'. Therefore, when you clean all the stains from it, it will leave. When you do _pratikraman_ , it will become pure and leave. You have become pure now, but you are responsible for it until you purify it, are you not?

**Questioner** : How are we to purify it.

**Dadashri** : Through _pratikraman_. Do _pratikraman_ as you see the stains (faults).

##  The One who Knows the Nature of the Prakruti is the Knower

To continue to 'See' closely ( _nihadavu_ ) the nature of _prakruti_ is considered Knower-ship ( _Gnayakata_ ). Not someone else's _prakruti_ but one's own. And to suffer the pain of one's _prakruti_ , is considered _vedakata_ (suffering). And the one who Knows ( _jaaney_ ) the nature of his _prakruti_ is considered Knower-ship ( _Gnayakata_ ).

There is an experience of infinite lives, and so one knows when he has a headache, really he is the Knower of it. He does not do anything else at all, and You have been given Knower-ship, through which You See the _prakruti_. You should See the _prakruti_ having the headache, but instead unawareness ( _ajagruti_ ) of 'I have a headache' arises. And so it begins to hurt. If one Knows, then he Knows who it is hurting. He also Knows the pain of the the one in front.

Our science ( _vignan_ ) is of a very different kind. Many times 'we' too cannot remain separate from pain in certain matters. In certain things 'we' are definitely separate, but in certain things about pain it is attached (stuck) in some places. Wherever 'we' are attached, 'we' keep separating (detaching).

**Questioner:** Do you place greater _upayoga_ (applied awareness) there?

**Dadashri:** 'We' place greater _upayoga_ , but still _upayoga_ has to be placed. That other is a _sahaj_ (spontaneous and natural) _upayoga_.

'One' (the Self) Knows when the tooth aches. The Knower continues to only Know, there is no pain within. _Prakruti_ experiences the pain, 'Chandubhai' experiences the pain, but when one says 'I am experiencing pain', then it sticks to him. He immediately becomes what he envisions to be. I tell you not to delve too deep into it. You have one more life left, don't you? That will all leave.

Our science is of a very different kind. Many times 'we' too cannot remain separate from pain in certain matters. In certain things 'we' are definitely separate, but in certain things about pain it is attached in some places. Wherever 'he' is attached, 'we' keep separating 'him'.

**Questioner** : I have 'seen' that. I 'Know' that Chandubhai is experiencing the pain, what concern do I have with him?

**Dadashri** : 'Knowership' ( _Gnayakata_ ) will not remain if it becomes weak.

**Questioner** : I have spent a whole night like that, Dadaji.

**Dadashri** : Yes that you will, but not everyone can do that. It is not that way for all these others. This is because one has had an experience of infinite life times. He will realize when two to four mosquitos attack him. It is the _prakruti_ that kills them. It is the unfolding mistake of the _prakruti_. That fault of the _prakruti_ will leave, when it is to leave. If you become confused (interfere) when it leaves (discharges), then that is a mistake.

**Questioner** : You had taught us that. Who would get entangled after that Dada? Why should one bother at all? It will take with it what is due to it in the account of karma.

**Dadashri** : Yes, it is collection on the account that is due. But, 'it is the account ( _hissab_ )', should remain for You, should it not? Such a one will sleep even if the room is full of mosquitos. Whereas here, he has problem with just four in the room. The other person will sleep peacefully because he has to sleep with nothing but mosquitos. But if there are only four, he will keep looking for them. If two mosquitos have entered into my mosquito net, Niruben ( _Atmagnani_ Dr. Niruben Amin 1944-2006) will remove them for me, because it takes long to get rid of aversion that had taken hold. The aversion that entered in the past life, became ingrained in the _prakruti_ so it takes time to leave.

Now, Jain scriptures says, the one should suffer twenty two _parishaha_ (different forms of sufferings). But one is not able to suffer even a single _parishaha_ out of even the four. How can the _jivas_ (living beings) of _dusham kaad_ (the current era of the time cycle characterized by lack of unity in mind-words and activity)) suffer _parishaha_? We, can do so because of our _Akram_ _Vignan_ , otherwise these twenty two _parishaha_ , they say that if you are made to sleep on rocks, thought of that nice comfortable bed should not cross your mind. You should not have thoughts of how you used to sleep on a nice comfortable mattress. Are these twenty-two _parishahas_ conquerable at the second? It is because of the science that problem is solved.

Yes, they have been told that, if you are made to sleep on rocks, thoughts of that a nice comfortable bed should not come into your meditation ( _dhyan_ ). You should not have thoughts of how you used to sleep on a nice comfortable mattress, and right now I have like this. Do not have such meditation.

##  Exact Knowing-Seeing Infront of Prakruti

**Questioner** : Dada, you said that I should now continue doing the work of _Shuddhatma_ , does that mean that we have remain the Knower-Seer and in eternal bliss?

**Dadashri** : That is all, nothing else. Knower-Seer and in eternal bliss! And keep Seeing only what Chandubhai's _prakruti_ (non-Self) is doing. If a car comes, Chandubhai will say, 'It will hit us, this will happen and that will happen'. You (Self) just have to keep Seeing that. They are all phases of the _pudgal_. You have to See only that, your own _prakruti_.

When You See your _prakruti_ , it will automatically give the fruit (effect) and leave. It will say, 'I will not return, You are free, and so am I'. Then if you have any problem, you can welcome her back.

When I was coming here, I saw a bus was burning on the way. I said, 'the bus is burning'. It was burning like a huge bonfire. Then I Knew ( _janyoon_ ), 'This bus is burning'. Then I review that vision that this is _prakruti_ , how far it reached that, 'Oh my God, what are these children doing? These secret rebels! They do not know what they are doing!' This is how that _prakruti_ started working inside; I kept Seeing what is happening in the _prakruti_!

_Prakruti_ will not refrain from speaking, will it? 'This bus is burning and it happens like this', so are you losing anything in that? _Prakruti_ thinks that this is ours only, so it will not refrain from being overwise. _Prakruti_ will continue to be overwise. We continue to See, that is all. What else? We understood, 'Oh ho ho! What _prakruti_ is doing?' 'These boys should not be doing this. They are doing this because they do not realize the consequence. They do not realize what they are doing.' But at the same time 'we' Know them. I Know that, and on one side _prakruti_ is doing its talking.

And if some crazy entity within all these _prakruti_ , asks, 'Who are you?' So then we will say, ''We' are _keval Gnan_ _swarupa_ (absolute knowledge state). You can do whatever you want to do. You can claim as much as you want to against him!'

You have become _Gnata-Drashta._ To See your _prakruti_ is the state of Knowing-Seeing ( _gnata drashatapanu_ ). Then You should talk with your _prakruti_. You should maintain interaction with it through the name of Chandubhai* (Reader should insert his or her name here). You will not have to mention unfolding of _karma_ ( _udaya karma_ ). Ask him when you get up in the morning, 'How are you Chandubhai? Are you in good health or not?' He is your neighbor, is he not? What is problem with that? And Jain is the neighbor of Jain, and Brahmin a neighbor of Brahmin, then where is the problem? So You can tell him ( _prakruti_ ), 'How are you? Why don't you drink a cup and a half of tea today?' Why don't you get your work done in this way, and See how well _prakruti_ does the work? You should know how to adjust with _prakruti_. It has a wonderful nature.

**Questioner:** How can one know his own _prakruti_?

**Dadashri:** You can Know by 'Seeing' it; one can know it by studied Seeing ( _nirikshan_ ).

Only the One who is completely separate from the _prakruti_ can See the _prakruti_ .You will not find anyone who 'Sees' ( _jonaar_ ) his _prakruti_ in worldly life interaction; you will find those who study the _prakruti_. After _Gnan_ , 'One' Sees the _prakruti_ , what are its habits; after becoming the Self. 'He' Sees the habits and the nature of the mind-speech-body.

##  Main Camera Takes the Picture of the Prakruti

You too can take the picture of your _prakruti_. One or two years after attaining the _Gnan_ , You can at least take certain picture of your _prakruti_. And ask other people of the world. Ask _sadhus-acharyas_ (monks and spiritual heads) to take the picture of their _prakruti_ , they will not know how to. Not one picture of theirs will be of any use, because they do not have a 'camera', do they? Theirs is a home-made camera; camera of the ego. Camera has to be original. But their's is in the form of ego, so what happens in that? How can they take a picture? This is to understand. This is a subtle talk.

**Questioner** : One's individual _prakruti_ does not work after _Gnan_ , does _prakruti_ of nature work, does it not? It will do its work, will it not?

**Dadashri** : You have to See even what it does, and See this _prakruti_ too. You should come into the nature of Knower-Seer.

##  Nature of the Prakruti

This _prakruti_ prefers to eat _mathia_ (crisp uniquely spicy wafer thin deep fried snack, orange gold in color made of lentil flour). All these _mahatmas_ knew this, so when I visit America they prepare and keep _mathia_ ready for me. But this year I ate them in the home of two individuals only, that's it. That which suits is the _prakruti_. In other homes, it was not preferred by the _prakruti_ so I left it after taking a bite. Then if someone says that he likes _mathia_ , they would not believe it. The taste of the _mathia_ is in my _prakruti_.

**Questioner** : Again how is this Dada, at this second our _prakruti_ did like this and later on again after a month or so we may not prefer this, it will change.

**Dadashri:** It can change even within three days only or even within a day. You may like to eat _dhebroo_ (small spicy round deep fried millet patties ) today and tomorrow you may not like it.

**Questioner:** I may not like it.

**Dadashri:** When did you study this?

**Questioner:** Observing Dada, leads to the study. Observing how Dada is, leads to the understanding of how a natural _prakruti_ works.

**Dadashri:** When the snacks are served then it will chose after critical observation as to what is different in all that? It will go for the items that have extra red chili pepper powder on it. That is called _prakruti_. When the _prakruti_ is Known entirely from all aspects, one becomes the Lord. To not become absorbed in the _prakruti_ is to Know it. Otherwise to become one with the _prakruti_ is to lose the 'Knowing' and that sets in the bondage. If one Understands the _prakruti_ completely, one becomes free.

This is the _prakruti_ (the non-Self complex of mind-speech and body), if You keep 'Seeing' it then there is not any problem whatsoever. Then neither You nor 'we' are liable. It should be Your desire (deep inner intent) to 'See', and despite that if the 'Seeing' is missed, there is no liability.

*****

#  [1.9]

#  From Pure Self to Absolute Self

##  Energy, of Purush and Prakruti

**Questioner:** ' _Purushartha Param Devam'_ ( _Purushartha_ is the absolute God). In everyone's view definition of _purushartha_ can be different. So what is the definition of the best _purushartha_?

**Dadashri:** There are two kinds of _purushartha_. One is when one becomes separate from _prakruti_ after becoming a _Purush_ (the Self) and Sees the _prakruti_. He keeps Seeing what the _prakruti_ is doing, that is called _Purushartha_. And the other _purushartha_ is an illusory _purushartha_ , but in the eyes of the rest of the world, it is considered real _purushartha_. Because it is a _purushartha_ , is it not? If he does something wrong, he receives bad fruit, if he does something good, he receives good fruit.

**Questioner** : Please can you clearly differentiate between the energy of _Purush_ and energy of _prakruti_.

**Dadashri** : Energy of _Purush_ means it is with _Purushartha_ , it is with _swaparakram_ (extreme activation of energy of the Self) Wow! 'We' wander within an hour throughout the world through _swaparakram_. After having made you a _Purush_ (the Self) after you become _Shuddhatma_ (pure Soul), Your energies begin to increase tremendously, if Your awareness ( _laksha_ ) is in it, and if you keep in touch with us.

This is all of the _prakruti_ ; it is energy of the _prakruti_. Now he remains _tanmayakar_ (engrossed) in the _prakruti_ , and You do not have to be _tanmayakar_ , that is the only difference. You are to See whatever _prakruti_ is doing.

Lord Mahavir was 'Seeing' only his own _pudgal prakruti_ (non-Self complex that is discharging). He remained Knower-Seer of only that, and in that way, he attained _keval Gnan_ (absolute Knowledge).

##  Gnani is Sitting in the Company of the Eternal

**Questioner** : 'Even _Gnani_ is indeed in the _prakruti_ '; please explain that.

**Dadashri** : Yes, 'we' too are in our _prakruti_. 'We' eat, drink, sleep, talk.

**Questioner** : 'But despite living in _prakruti_ , the One who is separate is _Gnani_ '.

**Dadashri** : Yes. 'We' remain completely outside this body as a neighbour.

The One sitting within (absolute Self); I (the Gnani) am sitting with that _Sat_ (the eternal, the Self), and all these people are sitting with me. Therefore, all these are next to the _Sat_ (eternal) are they not? So what I say is that there is no problem if you read a newspaper or eat sweets here, but there will be a problem if you go out and read books or scriptures. There will be a problem with whatever you do. There will not be any problem, no matter what you do, here, because you are close to (near) the _Sat_ , are you not? You will not find _Sat_ anywhere. _Sat_ means that which is completely separate from the _prakruti_. Separate!

##  Began the Union with God

**Questioner** : What is a solution to separate _Purush_ (Self) and _prakruti_ (non-Self)?

**Dadashri** : _Purush_ and _prakruti_ are two different things. _Purush_ is _Shuddhatma_ , and _prakruti_ is _pudgal_. _Prakruti_ is _puran_ (charge, input, filling in) and _galan_ (effect; discharge, emptying) in nature, _Purush_ is _Gnan_ by nature. _Purush_ is a non-doer ( _akarta_ ) and _prakruti_ is a doer ( _karta_ ). So it is where the doer is active. That which happens is _prakruti_ ; that which remains still ( _akriya_ , not involved in activity) is _Purush._ Thus You should separate the two.

**Questioner** : Is there any tool for that?

**Dadashri** : This awakened awareness ( _jagruti_ ) itself. You indeed know that one is inactive ( _akriya_ ) and the other is active ( _sakriya_ ). So then You have to separate the two.

**Questioner** : We have come (into this world) with _prakruti_ , which indeed is the reason for ongoing pain and misery. We now have _Gnan_ from the _vitarag_ (the Gnani). Now _prakruti_ will play the role of _prakruti_ ; in that, the pain and pleasure that happens to it, when will that become less sticky (cause less effect)?

**Dadashri** : Not less sticky, it will not affect You at all. When You Know (Experience as the Self) that it is all someone else's ( _parbharyu_ \- not of the Self) then You will have the complete experience. At the second the experience that it is of someone else, has not happened.

After the Self became separate, _Purushartha_ (progress as the Self) remains. _Purushartha_ had not opened up as long as _dehadhyas_ (fixed belief, 'I am this body') existed. _Purushartha_ begins after _Purush_ and _prakruti_ become separate. With that continued _Purushartha_ one gradually becomes _Purshottam_ (God, the absolute One). One becomes _Purshottam_ (God the absolute) from _Purush_ (the Self). The process of union with God arises. What _Purushartha_ does one have to do? By just saying, 'It is not mine, 'Nothing touches me', This is not mine''; nothing will touch You. Because the rule is, 'Is this Yours, or that other?'If such confusion arises, You should say, 'It is not mine' and it will automatically go away. It will not stay. It will not even stay to tell you that 'I was yours'. The second you say, 'This is not mine', it will leave. People of the South say, ' _aamcha nahi_ (not mine) _'_ , but it means the same, does it not? Before it used to be ' _tumcha hi thaa_ this is yours for sure'. From now onwards, ' _aamcha nahi.'_

_Purush_ and _prakruti_ become separate through _bhedvignan_ (science of separation). Thereafter, if one follows the five Agnas, he will end up as _Purshottam_. The ultimate state is that of _Purshottam_. Such a God is called _Purana Purush Purshottam._ The one who does not even have 'I-ness' ( _potapanu_ ). Even with this body, he does not have 'I-ness' that, 'I am saying this, and why are you not listening to me?

**Questioner** : It is more than enough if one becomes _Purush_ for just one second.

**Dadashri** : No one has become a _Purush_ even for a second. What did someone like that Anandghanji Maharaj say? 'Dear Lord Ajitnath! You have conquered anger-pride-deceit-greed, attachment-abhorrence, and thus be called _Purush_. But how can I be called _Purush_ when they have conquered me?' So how can he become a _Purush_? If one becomes _Purush_ for even a second, he will become _Paramatma_ (absolute Self).

##  Purush is Antaratma and Purshottam is Paramatma

**Questioner** : If we call Him a _Purush_ , then why did He suffer (pain or pleasure) in the universal playground ( _lila_ ) of the _prakruti_?

**Dadashri** : _Purush_ will never suffer ( _bhogvey_ ) at all. He is not considered _Purush_ as long as he suffers them. As long as it suffers, it is called ego. As long as one is suffering, one is in illusion, and therefore it is considered ego. As he stops suffering, he becomes a _Purush_. When One becomes the sufferer of the Self ( _swabhaav no bhokta_ ), He becomes a _Purush_ , and if he becomes the sufferer ( _bhokta_ ) of the view of the non-Self ( _vishesha bhaav no bhokta_ ), ego continues to exist.

**Questioner** : What is meant by suffering of (view, nature) of the Self ( _swabhaav no bhokta_ )?

**Dadashri** : When One becomes the sufferer of the nature (view) of the Self, One becomes a _Purush_. When he suffers the view of the Self ( _Atma_ - _swabhaav_ ), he becomes a _Purush_ , and if he suffers what is not of the Self, is the ego; he is called _jivatma_ (mortal). And the other is _Paramatma_. Now, one cannot suddenly become _Paramatma_ from a _jivatma_ , and so for some time one has to remain as _antarAtma_ (interim stage of the Self realized one), for a little rest. Until one resolves whatever he had accumulated in _jivatma_ , he has to remain as _antaratma_ , and then when everything is resolved, then he verily is _Paramatma_. He verily is _Paramatma_.

This is nothing but sheer entanglement. Where there is contradiction, there are countless entanglements. The world ends up liking it. Entanglement means fun for the world!

**Questioner** : The reason for it is that, what should one do about the rest of the life if one suddenly attains the light?

**Dadashri** : The rest of the life will pass wonderfully.

**Questioner** : But once one attains the light, rest of the life will not remain, will it?

**Dadashri** : He will then become _Purush_ , and when he becomes a _Purush_ , day after day he continues to become _Paramatma_ , from _Purush_. Once one becomes free from entanglements, he will not become entangled, will he?

One who becomes a _Shuddhatma_ and becomes the Knower-Seer, he has become a _Purush_. One who constantly Sees _prakruti_ is _Purshottam_ (absolute God).

**Questioner** : Is that what we can call Your current state?

**Dadashri:** No. 'Our' state is slightly unripe in this. If 'our' state was that, then 'we—the _Gnani Purush'_ would have become Dada Bhagwan (absolute Self). So 'we' are short of four degrees. So 'we' do not claim to be that form, that is why we are considered _bheda vignani_ (the scientist who Knows the distinct elements of the Self and the non-Self); we are considered _Gnani_ _Purush_. One has to say it as it is; otherwise liability is incurred on the self indeed. We have to say as it is; yes where it is yes, and no, where it is not. Even if someone finds it wrong, there is no problem, but one has to say as it is. We cannot say any other way. Is there God or not? Did God create all this? All that 'we' have to say, as it really is.

Then, that _Purushartha_ begins after one becomes a _Purush_. Then for that _Purush,_ the _Purushartha_ that happens, will lead to _Purushottam_ state day by day. He becomes _Purushottam Paramatma._ _Purush_ is _antarAtma_ and _Purushottam_ is _Paramatma_. That is all; one is _antarAtma_ until he becomes _Purushottam_. And from the second he becomes _Purush_ ; he begins to become _Purushottam_. The whole world is aware of the existence ( _astitva_ ), 'I am'. Every living being has the awareness of 'I am'. One does not have the awareness of 'What am I?' They do not have the awareness of the Self ( _vastutva_ ). When 'I' becomes 'I am _Purush'_ , everything is done. It will automatically become the absolute, after becoming _Purush_. Is it simple or difficult mathematic?

**Questioner** : Very simple.

**Dadashri** : Yes, it is very simple. I learnt such mathemetic, learnt all the equations. I got out of the entanglement and have wandered in a free state.

*****

#  [1.10]

#  One who Constinuously Sees Prakruti is Paramatma

##  There is Distinct Separation in the Individual Knowledge of the two

**Questioner** : Who is the knower of _prakruti_ 's attributes and faults?

**Dadashri** : That verily is the _prakruti_.

**Questioner** : What part of the _prakruti_ does the seeing?

**Dadashri** : It is the part that is intellect ( _buddhi_ ), part that is ego ( _ahamkar_ ).

**Questioner** : So what is the work of the main _Atma_ (Self) in this?

**Dadashri** : What is it to the Self? The main _Atma_ (Self) does not have anything to do with it.

**Questioner** : How is the Knowing-Seeing of the main Self ( _muda Atma_ )?

**Dadashri** : It is unsmeared ( _nirleyp_ ), whereas this one is smeared.

**Questioner** : So, that which sees the right-wrong, is it the smeared part?

**Dadashri** : Yes, it is all the part that is smeared !

**Questioner** : This intellect ( _buddhi_ ) that saw the right-wrong; that which 'Sees' that and 'Knows' that, is the Self?

**Dadashri** : If it sees the fault of the _prakruti_ , then it becomes _prakruti_. The Self is not there. The Self is not like that. It does not 'See' anyone's fault.

**Questioner** : He is not asking about someone else's fault; he is talking about (seeing) his own faults.

**Dadashri** : When it sees faults, it means that at that time, it is indeed _prakruti_. But it is a higher _prakruti_ , _prakruti_ that helps attain the Self.

**Questioner** : And one who sees _prakruti_ as flawless ( _nirdosh_ ), who is that?

**Dadashri** : The One Seeing _prakruti_ as flawless is the _Paramatma_ indeed. It verily is the _Shuddhatma_. It does not interfere in anything else at all, does it?

**Questioner** : What kind of bliss does it get out of Seeing the flawless ( _nirdosh_ )?

**Dadashri** : That bliss is called the bliss of liberation ( _muktanand_ ).

**Questioner** : So it does not say anything about the result.

**Dadashri** : Result; it does not see the result of the _prakruti_ at all.

There are two kinds of resultant knowledge ( _gnan_ ). One is the knowledge of the results in _prakruti_ ( _prakruti nu parinamik gnan_ ), and the other is the resulting knowledge of the Self.

**Questioner** : What taste is it tasting by Seeing as it is?

**Dadashri** : He has already tasted the bliss ( _anand_ ), but what it says, is that I am not concerned with bliss at all. I am concerned with Seeing this as it is. So what 'we' have said is, 'Why don't You too See as it is?' That is the ultimate talk.

If You See the resulting knowledge of _prakruti_ ( _prakruti nu parinamik gnan_ ) as flawless, You have passed. And if you see it as faulty, it means that you gave rise to an entanglement.

**Questioner** : Through which light of the _Gnan_ , the Self does not see it at fault ( _doshit_ )?

**Dadashri** : He does not See the fault through the fractional components of _keval Gnan_.

**Questioner** : Is it because he saw that the pleasure in seeing one at fault resulting in attachment-abhorrence ( _raag_ - _dwesh_ ), is temporary, and that is why he does not see anyone at fault?

**Dadashri** : There is bliss ( _anand_ ) in Seeing the flawless ( _nirdosh_ ). But he does not see it that way with the aim of getting bliss from it, but it because it is only that way. He sees it as it really is. Others do not see it as it is, and that is why pain happens.

##  Vision of the Self and the Vision of the Flawless

When someone says to me that they were saying this behind your back, I tell him that they will. It is my unfolding _karma_ , and the poor fellow; it is his unfolding _karma_ too. And 'we' See with awakened Vision ( _nihadavu_ ) the unfolding _karma_ ( _udaya swarupa_ ).

'We' See ( _joyeeye_ ) the whole world, every living being, only as the pure Self ( _shuddha swarupa_ ). 'We' also See them the way You see them, and 'we' See with awakened Vision ( _nihadavu_ ) _prakruti_ in unfolding form. 'We' See (the pure Soul directly) and 'we' See with awakened Vision ( _nihadiye_ ) the other one. And no one is at fault; the world is flawless.

**Questioner:** You said that, ''We' See ( _joyeeye_ ) one and 'we' See with awakened Vision ( _nihadiye_ ) the other one. I did not understand that. What is the difference between ' _jovoo_ ' and _'nihadavu'_?

**Dadashri:** 'We' See the Self (of the other person) through the Self, 'we' See _drashya_ (that which is to be seen) as a _drashta_ (Seer). 'We' See the Self with the Self and through the vision of the self, ( _deha_ _drashti_ ) 'we' See the relative, with awakened Vision ( _nihadiye_ ) _prakruti_ in the form of unfolding _karma_ ( _udaya swarupa_ ). If one is cursing someone, it is his unfolding _karma_ , there is no fault in it today. His fault is the _bhaav_ (intent, view) that he is doing internally. But, our _mahatmas_ do not even do _bhaav_ (have a view that, 'I am this body, I am doing.'), because the _kartapurush_ (doer) has separated. 'I am pure Soul' means doership is gone. Are You really _Shuddhatma_ or are You Chandubhai?

**Questioner** : I am _Shuddhatma_.

**Dadashri** : Then You are free from doership. 'I am Chandubhai' was indeed the doership. So the state of doership is gone, You do not have any doership anymore. You will not bind karma.

**Questioner** : Dada, it has taken long to digest all that. Others have digested, it has taken me long to do that.

**Dadashri** : What it is, is that such talk seldom comes out; as one takes in such talk, he will digest it, and then it will be settled. This kind of talk has never taken place before, has it? Such circumstances have to come to gether, do they not? And what kind of circumstances you have? You to go to his home, live in his home and eat at with him too! So everything will solidify, will it not? Such circumstances, there are such moments that come during the days. There are certain times that come, then things become all right. If we hold on to the _Agna_ of the Gnani Purush, then it is more than enough. There will not be any problem if You do not let go of the _Agna_.

##  Just See the Flawlessness of the Prakruti

**Questioner** : I am starting to see my _prakruti_ , everything is seen, I can see mind-intellect-chit-ego, but how do I study them? How should _Gnan_ work in front of the _prakruti_? How can I maintain awareness? How can I study all that?

**Dadashri** : When you study the _prakruti_ , you will know what kind of _prakruti_ you still have. You will know that _prakruti_ is like this. And if you have known little about it, you will know more and more about it everyday. Then eventually you will know it completely. All You need to do is to keep Seeing what Chandubhai is doing. That indeed is the _shuddha_ _upayoga_ (pure applied awareness).

**Questioner** : But Dada, many times it so happens that while I keep seeing like this, internally I become unsteady, and so there are reactions to that.

**Dadashri** : What do you go into?

**Questioner** : I have to constantly See my _prakruti_ , what is working when I cannot See that?

**Dadashri** : Veil of ignorance ( _avaran_ ). You have to destroy the _avaran_.

**Questioner** : How can that be removed?

**Dadashri** : It begins to get destroyed day by day with _vidhis_ (special inner energies attained at the feet of the _Gnani_ ) here. This was all full of _avarans_ (veils that obstruct the Vision of the Self). You could not See anything. Now you are gradually able to See. That _avaran_ will not let you See everything. Right now, You will not See all 'your' faults. How many can You See? Can you see ten-fifteen?

**Questioner** : I can see many.

**Dadashri** : Hundreds?

**Questioner** : The chain of them goes on.

**Dadashri** : They will still not end. There is _avaran_ , it will remain constantly, will they not? There are many faults. Even for 'us' (the _Gnani Purush_ ) _shukshmatar_ (subtler) and _shukshmatam_ (subtlest) faults happen when 'we' do the _vidhi_. These faults do not harm the other person, but 'we' are aware that they happen. 'We' have to cleanse them immediately. It is not acceptable. 'We' have to cleanse whatever 'we' See.

**Questioner** : I feel the burden of everything that has happened in the past.

**Dadashri** : You should throw away the burden of the past in this way, why should You be burden Yourself with them? They will create burden for you only if they touch you.

**Questioner** : I can see everyone's _prakruti_ because of the _Gnan_. What has happened in the past, I can see everyone's _prakruti_. I can see my _prakruti_ and now I can see how to make adjustments. I can see all that.

**Dadashri** : Yes, everything will be Seen. You will know the _prakruti_ , will you not? You can know your _prakruti_ , now that You have become _Purush_ (the Self). Otherwise you will not know it, will you? You will see it closely, analyse it, and you will even seek out any attribute there is.

Everyone has _prakruti_ , but when one allows his _prakruti_ to expend ( _khapavavi_ ), he becomes God. If he either expends his _prakruti_ or he Knows his _prakruti_ ; then he begins to become God. Then after Knowing the _prakruti_ , he will allow it to be used up by settling it with equanimity. He will See _prakruti_ , what it is doing, what is 'Chandubhai' doing with others? He (Self) will See all that, if he is fighting, He will even See it fighting with others.

**Questioner** : How is one to expend it, Dada?

**Dadashri** : To keep Seeing the _prakruti_ , is indeed called expending it. This means to expend it in worldly life interaction ( _vyavahar_ ) is to settle ( _khapavavoo_ ) with equanimity. This means the mind would not be upset. To expend, by simply taking a back seat and quelling the _kashayas_ (anger-pride-deceit-greed) is called expending (with equanimity). This Seeing, is the final expending, This Seeing brings an end to it. Lord Mahavir was constantly Seeing just one _pudgal_ (his own non-Self complex). Which way it is going, where is it wandering? He kept Seeing just that. That is why 'we' are saying 'See ( _joovo_ ) Your _prakruti_ , See it with awakened awareness ( _nihado_ )'.

Every human being, even _Tirthankaras_ have _prakruti_. There is no choice but to expend (settle) and be done with it.

**Questioner** : After attaining a _Siddha_ (final bodyless state of liberation ) state, is _prakruti_ not there?

**Dadashri** : It will not be found there. _Prakruti_ leaves upon final liberation ( _nirvan_ ). What is _nirvan_? _Prakruti_ does not remain after _Prakruti_ has been Seen and Known. Then arises the _Siddha_ state; that is where it is called _nirvan_. Other people use this word wherever they can. They are killing the meaning of the word _nirvan_. It is a word that has come out of the mouths of those who have attained _nirvan_ , and only they have understood that word. Others use that word, but only those who have attained it, understood what _nirvan_ means.

**Questioner** : Until then one has to take one more birth in Bharat Kshetra (current world), is that what it is?

**Dadashri** : You do not have to think all that. You should not delve in such thoughts. Go beyond that and See with awakened awareness the _prakruti_ , see what _prakruti_ is doing ( _nihado_ ).

Real _Purushartha_ is, when You keep Seeing _prakruti_ after becoming _Purush_. Keep Seeing with awakened the _prakruti_ , that is all. If You know this Seeing with continuous awakened awareness ( _nihadavoo_ ), then You will attain _moksha_ within one life time.

##  That is the Final Worship of the Self

**Questioner** : I do not like 'my' _prakruti_ now. I can See the _prakruti_ and now that _prakruti_ has become such that the one who was involved in taking account of everything, now has become forgetful.

**Dadashri** : Could you see your _prakruti_ before?

**Questioner** : Absolutely not, Dada.

**Dadashri** : What kind of _Atma_ have you attained! Wow, it is that which Sees what the _prakruti_ is doing ( _nihadey_ )! It _nihades_ (Sees continuously) the _prakruti_ : one who had lived and wandered around as _prakruti_ is now Seeing 'his' _prakruti._ Now what? The _prakruti_ that was the knower ( _gnata_ ), now becomes the known ( _gneya_ ). What was the seer ( _drashta_ ) has now become the seen ( _drashya_ ).

Whatever _prakruti_ does, to continuously See with awakened awareness ( _niahadavi_ ) that _prakruti_ is worshipping the Self ( _swarupa bhakti_ ). Seeing the _prakruti._ What is to be done there? For the One who Sees the _prakruti,_ there is no responsibility. There is responsibility of the _prakruti_ for the one who does not See it.

**Questioner** : When we say the _vidhis_ , _Namaskar_ _Vidhi_ , _Charan_ _Vidhi_ , is it considered worship of the Self ( _swabhakti_ ), or is Seeing the _prakruti_ considered the worship of the Self?

**Dadashri** : No, no. Chandubhai is the one saying the _vidhis_. Chandubhai is saying it to become free, but You Know what Chandubhai said, and where he fell short. That is You. The One who Knows where Chandubhai fell short, where he made a mistake, the Knower of all that is You. You and Chandubhai are always together, but you both have different businesses.

**Questioner** : He is definitely separate.

**Dadashri** : Yes, that is it. When you make it as one business, then you take a beating. To See what _prakruti_ is doing ( _prakruti ney nihadavi_ ), you can call it _swarupa bhakti_ (worshipping the Self) or _swaramanta_ (to play in the Self). _Bhakti_ (worship of an external) means there is nothing wrong in doing the _bhakti_. _Swa ramanta_ (absorption in the self) means _bhakti_ (worship). Right now it is _pudgal_ _ramanta_ (dwelling in the non-Self). Hey, sight of a mango (any object of pleasure) will entice through sensations that begin within, see that _ramanta_ , how much fun it is! But _chit_ gets stuck there. And when you have 'Dada' on your mind all the time; that is called _Atmaramanta_. _Gnani_ _Purush_ is your own Self. So, it will take long to attain the main Self ( _muda Atma_ ), but when you do _ramanta_ of _Gnani_ _Purush_ , you can see him walking around in front of your eyes, then what more do you need?

Seeing what _prakruti_ is doing ( _nihadavi_ ) is _swaramanata_ (dwelling in the Self). So what comes within _prakruti_? Mind-intellect- _chit_ -ego, senses organs, all these come into _prakruti_. And if someone tells Chandubhai, 'Chandubhai, you do not have any sense, you do not do a proper job of running the contract business', and his face becomes like he swallowed castor oil and You continue seeing it, that is more than enough. There is no problem if You know that the face has become like he swallowed castor oil, people have the problem if that happens. You (the Self) do not have the problem, but You See it all continuously ( _nihado_ ).

**Questioner:** Once you had spoken in a sentence that, 'Do not do _vikalp_ ('I am Chandulal, this is happening to me'), and if _vikalp_ does happen, then 'See' the _vikalp_ and the _vikalpi_ (the one who has become Chandulal) and You will become free'.

**Dadashri:** That is correct, You just See that. That is called _swaramanata_.

##  The Constant Seer of the Prakruti is Paramatma

_Prakruti_ is dependent on the non-Self ( _paradhin_ ), not dependent on the Self ( _Atmadhin_ ). One who Knows _prakruti_ , becomes the absolute Self ( _Paramatma_ ). If you Know _Purush_ (the Self) then You can know _prakruti_. One becomes a _Purush_ after becoming a _Gnani_ (Knowing the Self) _Purushartha_ begins when one becomes a _Purush_ , and what is the kind of _Purushartha_ (progress as the Self) is of the _Purush_? It is constantly Seeing what _prakruti_ is doing ( _nidhayaj kare_ ).

One who Sees what _prakruti_ is doing ( _nihadey_ ) is _Purush_. One who constantly Sees what _prakruti_ is doing is a _Paramatma_ (absolute Self). What is there to be Seen in _prakruti_? The _Purush_ Sees what the mind is thinking, what decisions the intellect is making, what crazy thing the ego is doing, also where the ego collides. This is because the ego is blind, it is like Dhrutrastra (In the epic _Mahabharata_ Dhrutrashtra who was blind from birth, was the King of Hastinapur at the time of the Kurukshetra War the epic's climactic event. Throughout his reign as King of Hastinapur, Dhritarashtra was torn between the principles of dharma and his love for his son Duryodhana, and often ended up endorsing his son's misdeeds merely out of fatherly love. Thus Dhrutarashtra essentially presided over the fall of Hastinapur's kingdom. All of his sons perished in the war) who was blind and it functions through the eyes of the intellect ( _buddhi_ ). No one except intellect will accommodate it. It is because of the presence of the intellect ( _buddhi_ ) that it excerces its arrogance ( _rof_ ). It is because of the _buddhi_ , it (ego) has become President, and the intellect becomes the Prime Minister Therefore the One who Sees what ego and all else are doing ( _nihadey_ ) is _Shuddhatma_. Its 'work' is to simply continue to See only.

**Questioner** : When a man is stealing, he knows that what he is doing is wrong. Now here, stealing is also a result (effect), so it is a discharge. The inner view ( _bhaav_ ) he has in the mind that this is wrong; is that discharge too?

**Dadashri** : People who have not attained the Self, for them there is _purushartha_ in the _bhaav_ (intent-view). Whereas here, You do not have _purushartha_ of _bhaav_ , your _bhaav_ has been removed. Therefore pure applied awareness ( _shuddha upayoga_ ) is verily the _Purushartha_ (further progress as the Self).

**Questioner:** So, however much Knower-Seer we remain, that much is the _Purushartha_!

**Dadashri:** Or if You See _Shuddhatma_ in others, or follow our _Agnas_ , that is _Purushartha_. When You follow the five _Agnas_ I have given to You, at that time there is _Purushartha_. So if You follow the five _Agnas_ , that is a _shuddha_ _upayoga_ (pure applied awareness). Otherwise, See what the _prakruti_ is doing ( _nihado_ ). Now if Chandubhai is bickering with someone, at that time You See him with, 'wow, I have to say that you are still at it! You are still just the same as you were before; you have not changed at all. When You See this way, then that is considered _shuddha upayoga_.

**Questioner:** Please explain more about, 'One who 'Sees with awakened awareness ( _niahdey_ )' the _prakruti_ is _Purush_ and the One who is done Seeing with awakened awareness ( _nihadi rahyo_ )' the _prakruti_ is _Paramatma._

**Dadashri:** It means Chandubhai's _prakruti_ , what 'Chandubhai' is doing, The One who 'Sees with awakened awareness' all that, is _Purush_ , and the One who is done with 'Seeing with awakened awareness' is _Paramatma_.

**Questioner:** What is the difference between _Purush_ and _Paramatma_?

**Dadashri:** _Purush_ is still becoming a _Paramatma_. And _Paramatma_ does not have to do anything, he is a Knower-Seer and in eternal bliss. Whereas You ( _Purush_ ) still have to settle files; that is all.

Therefore, _Purush_ is still 'studying to See' ( _jovu, nihadavu_ ) that _prakruti_ is doing all this; He, the Self is not the one doing it. He is called a _Purush_. When someone curses him, he feels, 'Oh ho ho! He is not the doer. His _prakruti_ is doing that.' That is when he is considered to have become a _Purush_. But he still has not attained the stillness of a _Purush_ , and so he becomes upset. However, he is a _Purush_. Further ahead, he does not have the work of studied Seeing ( _nihadavoo_ ). At the time of the sound (of the cursing), the _prakruti_ is 'Seen', such a One has become a _Paramatma_.

When one finds a fault, it means that he is not 'Seeing' the _prakruti_. Later he realizes that he made a mistake. No one is at fault in this world, and mistake that happens; it is a mistake of the _prakruti_. And if one sees 'him' at fault for the mistake of the _prakruti_ , it is a grave mistake. So what did 'we' say? So when _prakruti_ is fighting with a _prakruti_ , just See them fighting.

**Questioner:** One keeps up with the Seeing of what _prakruti_ is doing.

**Dadashri:** There is no problem then. But when the other _prakruti_ is fighting with you, if he is being hurt by you, then that is your mistake. This is because the other person does not know about the _prakruti_. He only knows, 'I verily am this body complex', so you cannot tell him anything. You have to make sure you do not hurt anyone. And nothing is going to change, whether you fight or not. One has done nothing but fight for infinite lives. And he believes that he can change by doing that. Nothing is going to change.

**Questioner:** But Dada, at least some change can happen with _pratikraman_ we do against a _prakruti_ , can it not?

**Dadashri:** We gave him the _Gnan_ to make that change. And change will happen when that _Gnan_ comes into result.

##  This is how 'I-ness' Dissolves

**Questioner** : Does 'I-ness' ( _potapanu_ ) arise because of attributes of _prakruti_?

**Dadashri** : It is indeed because of attributes of the _prakruti_ that 'I-ness' has arisen. But that 'I-ness' should be destroyed. Hence 'I-ness' will have to gradually leave for sure.

**Questioner** : It will slowly leave by remaining in _Gnan_ , will it not Dada?

**Dadashri** : 'I-ness' will gradually become less as one Sees the 'I-ness'. There is no need to rush it. It is no ordinary thing to get rid of the 'I-ness'. One becomes God when it leaves.

**Questioner** : What is to be Seen in the 'I-ness'.

**Dadashri** : Whole _prakruti_ is to be Seen ( _nihadavi_ ). Whole _prakruti_ is only 'I-ness'. That is only where one believed, 'I am that'. 'He' who is free from the _prakruti_ part, One who has such _Gnan_ , is a ' _Gnani_ '.

##  Clear Science of Prakruti Opened up

All these discoveries are new and they are of _Akram_ _Vignan_.

**Questioner** : Dada, you have completely disclosed the science of the Self, and on the other hand you also have disclosed a clear science of _prakruti_.

**Dadashri** : Yes, that is correct.

**Questioner** : Nowhere else has science of _prakruti_ been disclosed, Dada. No one has been able to describe it.

**Dadashri** : But how can they? It is indeed difficult to know.

**Questioner** : It is not even in any scripture, Dada.

**Dadashri** : Who are the ones speaking the scriptures? They are the ones living within the _prakruti_. They live within the _prakruti_ and know the _prakruti_. But they cannot see the whole _prakruti_. _Keval Gnanis_ (absolute enlightened ones) have not spoken all this. They have talked about only some things.

**Questioner** : They do not have anything left, do they Dada? Besides that of the Self, nothing of the _prakruti_ remains for them. That is why description of it ceased.

**Dadashri** : Yes, it has not come out. It has not become open.

**Questioner** : So, in Dada's speech, it works for everyone; it is all open. On the one side everything is open about the Self, and also it is completely open about the _prakruti_. So there isn't any confusion anywhere. Then ultimately there is this about 'I (the Self), _bavo_ (ego complex) and Mangaldas (body complex)'. That is absolutely magnificent!

**Dadashri** : Yes, absolutely magnificent! Even I feel that this is something else.

*****

#  [2.1]

#  Dravyakarma

##  Living Beings Bound by Three Karma

**Questioner** : We had question in _satsang_ about what is _dravyakarma_? Will you please explain _bhaavkarma_ , _dravyakarma_ , and _nokarma_ we talk about? What is considered _dravyakarma_? What is considered _bhaavkarma_? What is considered _nokarma_?

**Dadashri** : Yes, 'we' will explain them to you now.

_Dravyakarma_ , _bhaavkarma_ and _nokarma_. There isn't a fourth kind of karma, and because of only these three karma, the living beings of the whole world are bound. There are only these three tubers (karmic), and that is why these _jivas_ (living beings) have remained as _jivatmas_ (mortals). When these three tubers are destroyed, one becomes a _Paramatma_ (immortal absolute Self).

Now you have to know these three. If I introduce you to three people, you will not forget them. Similarly it is with these three kinds of karma; _dravyakarma_ , _bhaavkarma_ and _nokarma_. There is no other karma. These three karma encompass all karma. You have to know them.

What do some people understand? All the _bhaavkarma_ (intent in current life) one does, their effect will be these _dravyakarma_. If one does _bhaav_ (desire-intent) of eating, that is _bhaavkarma_ , and they call eating as _dravyakarma_. Actually it is not like that.

##  Dravyakarma are Divided Into Eight Kinds

The final balance of all the karma one does in his whole life becomes divided in eight parts. They are all considered _dravyakarma_. So in this life one receives wrong 'glasses' (like colored eyeglasses) and body, these two in _dravyakarma_. _Gnanavaran_ (Knowledge obscuring), _darshanavaran_ (Vision obstructing), _mohaniya_ (deluding), and _antaraya_ (obstructing), these four karma as the bandages ( _avaran_ , covering, veils); and _naamrupa_ (body determining), _gotra_ (status determining), _ayusyha_ (life-span determining), and _vedaniya_ (pleasure and pain producing), they are in the form of the body. These eight karma are verily present with one at birth.

**Questioner** : So where did this _dravyakarma_ come from?

**Dadashri** : It is the effect of past (life) karma; a balance sheet. It is a balance sheet of the past lives, so one has come with the balance. In that the _dravyakarma_ have come free (without any effort). One did not have to do _purushartha_ (self effort).

This every karma is being bound at every _samaya_ (the smallest unit of time), and it is divided into eight parts. But when karma is bound, all the eight kinds are there. Then the division is made. With certain karma ( _naamrupa-rupa karma_ ), body is formed. With some karma ( _shata-ashata karma_ ), bitter-sweet (pleasure-pain) 'taste' arises. Through some karma ( _gotra karma_ ) one is worshipped ( _lokapujya_ ), or insulted ( _lokanindya_ ) by others. Some karma ( _ayushya karma_ ) dictate life and death, some will die soon and some will live long. These four karma, and with the other four karma will 'cover the eyes' ('colored glasses'). Knowledge is obstructed, so _Gnanavaran_ (Knowledge obscuring) _karma_. Vision is obstructed, intuition is lacking, so it is _darshanavaran_ (intuition or Vision obstructing). So one will see it wrong only. You will only see what your glasses will allow you to see, right? He has such _dravyakarma_. As a consequence _avaran_ (veil) arises over the main element (the Self), which makes one go on the wrong path in many kinds of ways.

Now I will explain you _dravyakarma_. There is a man who does not have _sooj_ (intuition; insight) of what is ahead, and so he blindly keeps colliding. That is _darshanavaran karma_ (Vision obscuring karma). The deviation that happens in knowing (it as it is), prevents Knowing, is _Gnanavaran_ (Knowledge obscuring) _karma_. Then _moha_ (illusory attachment) is _dravyakarma_. Then _vignakarma_ or _antarayakarma_ (obstructing karma) is _dravyakarma_. Then this body is part of _dravyakarma_. Because there is a body, then there has to be _naamrupa_ - _rupa_ (name-form), does it not? When there is a body, there has to be pleasure and pain suffering karma ( _shata_ and _ashata vedaniya_ ), does it not? When there is a body, then there is higher and lower status ( _gotra karma_ ), is there not? And as there is a body there is death ( _ayushya karma_ ), is there not? Therefore, all the eight karma arise because of the body. Therefore, this body is _dravyakarma_.

##  Illusion Exists due to the 'Eye-glasses'

_Atma_ (Self) and body are indeed separate; still what makes them appear as one? It is _dravyakarma,_ the wrong eyeglasses. So every living being comes here in this life with glasses, each with his eyeglasses. Some see it this way, and some see it another way. They are all _dravyakarma_. One follows the wrong, because of the wrong glasses. His glasses will change when he has another birth. But glasses keep on changing according to what he knows.

Therefore, _dravyakarma_ is the main thing. _Dravyakarma_ is the main cause for giving rise to the worldly life. Whatever kind of is bandage over the eye, (colored glasses over the eye)( _avaran_ ) of the _dravyakarma_ , that is how one sees. 'One' has lost the Vision of the Self-his own _darshan_ (Vision). Bandage is placed (veil is created), one gets the 'colored glasses' and so he has to see through those glasses. Then whatever he sees is what it is.

So _dravyakarma_ is such that everything one sees wrong (not as it is). Just as a who is standing on his head sees things wrong, _dravyakarma_ will show you green, yellow, all kinds of things and because of that illusion has arisen in this worldly life. It will not let you see as it really is, and gives rise to an illusion. That are the 'glasses' that is _dravyakarma_. That _dravyakarma_ is the beginning of this world. The view-intent-outlook ( _bhaav_ ) started changing according to those glasses, and that is _bhaavkarma_. Then all kinds of desires arise.

##  Everything Appears 'Wrong' due to the Eyeglasses

_Dravyakarma_ means, one person likes to eat onions, and another person does not even like to look at onions. That is _drashtirog_ (disease of vision). Therefore, these eyeglasses are wrong, so someone sees everything green and someone sees everything yellow. The one who is seeing green; will say it is not yellow, it is green. So then you will understand that it is not like that on the outside, but he sees it that way. So say yes to him, otherwise a fight will commence. You understand that the poor man is saying, not through his own energy (the energy of the Self), not with his own faculty, but through the faculty through which he takes support. Whatever dependency he is subject to, the glasses he is wearing, is the _dravyakarma_ is in the form of these eyeglasses. 'He' (through the eyeglasses) sees everything wrong (not as it is), like this this is 'my father-in-law'. Actually, it is not like that. Can the Self see anyone as father-in-law? The Self can See the Self only. He (the other person) is the Self, but is being seen as father-in-law is the _dravyakarma._ Can one ever be a father-in-law? Is he a 'father-in-law' for all? And if there is a father-in-law, how long will he be one? Only for a while, may be twenty-five years, or until a divorce happens. Who will call him a father-in-law on the day after the divorce? That which shows,'this is my father, this is my mother,' is all _dravyakarma_.

_Dravyakarma_ means that wrong 'eyeglasses' are there in this life (from past life), and so because of them, you do not know 'who' you are. It is wrong knowledge ( _gnan_ ), wrong vision ( _darshan_ ).

If you have come with green eyeglasses, everything will be seen green. Therefore the one with illusion will see the world of illusion. When will this be finally resolved? Does one not have to come to the final resolution of any problem?

So the _dravyakarma_ that is bound (created for next life) is the establishment of the wrong vision, through which all this happens; 'right-wrong' _bhaav_ (view) are 'seen'. Would God (the absolute Self) have _bhaav_ (view-intent-outlook) of begging? Would you not understand that something is that is not right has happened here? Are the resultant feelings of the view ( _bhaav_ ). Do you like the view-the fixed feeling ( _bhaav_ ) of 'I am married, I am widow'?

What does _dravyakarma_ mean? You cannot see well with the eyes, and so you have to get some eyeglasses. I have ears, and yet why do I have to be hard of hearing? Why can I not hear? It is because _dravyakarma_ has become bad. Because _bhaavkarma_ (the charging that happens during discharge, in past life) were spoilt, the _dravyakarma_ became bad. This is the fruit of that.

##  What are these eight karmas?

So there are eight divisions of _dravyakarma_. There is infinite _Gnan_ (Knowledge) but a veil that has come over it; that veil is _Gnanavaran_. There is infinite _Darshan_ (Vision), and it has been veiled, that veil is _Darshanavaran_. And bcause of _Gnanavaran_ and _Darshanavaran_ , _mohaniya karma_ (illusion producing karma) has arisen. And because of that _vignas_ (obstructions) have arisen, which is _vignakarma or antaraya karma_. _Antaraya_ means that that you will not be able to obtain what you want, even when you keep wandering after it. Otherwise, mere thinking about something will bring it in front of you, and that is considered the destruction _antaraya_ (obstructing) karma. Then, when it is hot outside, one will become uneasy, or when it is cold, he feels cold, that is _vedaniya karma_ (pleasure and pain suffering karma). Then there is is _naamrupa karma_ (name and form karma), the name one has been given and supported a name, 'this is Chandu'. _Naamrupa_ that I am like this, I am like that, I am Jain etc. Then there is _gotra karma_ (status determining). He is a very good man; he is a bad person; that is all _gotra karma_. Then there is _ayushya karma_ (life-span determining). He is born here, so he is going to die.

Toothache is also _dravyakarma_. Learning, intellect; all that comes within _dravyakarma_. But that is all fixed. Then from _dravyakarma_ arise the _bhaavkarma_. What one will eat is _dravyakarma_.

**Questioner** : Is it written?

**Dadashri** : Not written (destined), it is present within indeed. Even fasting is there. One will go hungry even in his father-in-law's hometown, if he was meant to fast. Now, how would doctors know this science? You will not find any of this in the scriptures. These exact understanding is of _Akram_ _Vignan_.

##  Dravyakarma Means Sanchit Karma

**Questioner** : So then _dravyakarma_ is like _prarabdha_ (fixed effect), right? Where I will be born, what name would I get, all that?

**Dadashri** : No. _Dravyakarma_ is called _sanchit karma_ , those that remain as karmic balance from which the karma will come into effect one by one. When they are ready to give fruit, they become _prarabdha_ _karma_. Whether there is equanimity ( _samata_ ) or agitation ( _vishamata_ ) in suffering (tasting) that fruit; is what determines the binding of a new karmic account. You will not have any problem at all, if equanimity remains while suffering the effect of the fruit.

**Questioner** : What is the difference between _dravyakarma_ and _udayakarma_?

**Dadashri** : When d _ravyakarma_ becomes ready to give fruit (effect), it is called _udayakarma_ (unfolding karma). _Dravyakarma_ comes to an end through _udayakarma_. It is a _dravyakarma_ when it is not ready to give fruit.

**Questioner** : What should one do to bring (have) good _dravyakarma_?

**Dadashri** : Maintain equanimity while suffering the effect of the fruit. It means that you settle with it with equanimity while suffering the fruit. If _kadhee_ (soup) is not sweet enough or is too salty, settle it with equanimity.

_Dravyakarma_ means, why does one do something wrong? It is because wrong bandages (binding with colored eyeglasses) have been put on the Vision and Knowledge, and so he does the wrong. If the bandages are cleared (removed), then he will not do anything at all (non doer). 'We' clear those bandages for you by giving you _Gnan_ (Knowledge) and _Darshan_ (Vision).

After attaining the _Gnan_ , some of the _dravyakarma_ come to end. Those are the wrong eyeglasses. The other four karma (of body) namely; _naamrupa_ , _vedaniya_ , _gotra_ and _ayushya_ , are to be suffered.

*****

#  [2.2]

#  Gnanavaran Karma

##  Analogy Example of Dravyakarma

**Questioner** : Please explain every karma in detail. Please explain _dravyakarma_ with an illustrative example.

**Dadashri** : Have seen a candle?

**Questioner** : Yes, I have seen a candle.

**Dadashri** : What are the things in a candle?

**Questioner** : There is a wick, and there is wax.

**Dadashri** : All these material of use is there, and when it is lit, it is called a whole candle. It will give light. Such light giving candle exists. The entire lit, light emitting candle is analogous to all _dravyakarma_. They are constantly dissolving and new _dravyakarma_ arises. Just as this candle burns, this ( _dravyakarma_ ) continues to dissolve.

I will tell you what all is there in this _dravyakarma_. In the candle you understand that there is a wick and wax etc, similarly in the _dravyakarma_ there is _Gnanavaran karma._

##  Gnanavaran Karma Prevents Gnan From Manifesting

If you blindfold a man and send him away, what will he see? What will he see?

**Questioner** : Nothing.

**Dadashri** : Such bandages have been bound (created in the past life) for the self ( _vyavahar atma_ ). Whatever kind of karma you did, such are the bandages are placed over it. Green bandages are seen.

_Gnanavaran_ (Knowledge obscuring) karma means, that which does not let us see beyond, in _Gnan._ It exists as a veil over the _Gnan_ which You (the Self) have and does not let it illuminate. It is there, but it does not allow it to manifest. So there is a veil over the _Gnan_ (Knowledge). Now if only that veil moves, then the light is already there with You.You do not have to get it from outside. That karma is _Gnanavaran karma_.

**Questioner** : What is there for us, is that _Gnanavaran_?

**Dadashri** : Not just you, whole world has the same, do they not? _Gnanavaran_ means the bandage (yellow eyeglasses) over the eyes, and therefore he says, 'Why is this building yellow?' Hey you, the building is white. Your bound veil ( _pato_ ) is showing you that, so what can we do about that? So you have the _avaran_ (veil) over _Gnan_.

##  Gnanavaran Obstructs Thus

**Questioner** : What is _Gnanavaran_ (Knowledge obscuring) karma in connection to the Self ( _Atma_ )?

**Dadashri** : I am _Shuddhatma_ , now ' _Shuddhatma_ ' (the Self) is verily the _Vignan_ (Science), and there has come a veil over it. And that is why light does not come for you, and so you cannot know the _Gnan_. _Gnan_ will manifest when that veil (curtain) moves.

**Questioner** : How exactly is the _Gnanavaran_? Please explain that with an example.

**Dadashri** : There are many things, say if there are four _doodhiyas_ (mildly sweet light green colored squash vegetable) you may know them all as _doodhiyas_ , but how can you know which of the four are bitter and which are sweet ?

**Questioner** : Only if we taste them.

**Dadashri** : It is when we taste them...then that becomes _buddhi_ (intellect). When you know it without tasting it, then? It is the _gnanavaran_ (veil over relative knowledge) that is obstructing it; it is the _avaran_ (veil) over _gnan._ Such veil is removed when you taste it, is it not?

**Questioner** : Yes.

**Dadashri** : That is the removal of the curtain of _gnanavaran_ (knowledge obscuring). That which does not allow knowledge is called _gnanavaran._ He will smell and sniff by holding it close, to know if it is bitter. Knowledge that happens by smelling-sniffing, is _indriya_ _gnan_ (sense organ mediated knowledge), while the other is direct Knowledge ( _Gnan, atiindriya Gnan_ ). Knowledge should be direct.

One can never experience the real thing (the Self) and real happiness (bliss of the Self) through the veil of _Gnanavaran_. One will never awaken to the Self in, 'Who am I?' Such awareness will never happen, that is all _Gnanavaran_ , that itself is _aGnan_. Whole world lives in _aGnan_ (where the light of the Self does not reach). So when one attains _Gnan_ later, there is freedom from _Gnanavaran_.

##  This is Going the way of Wrong Understanding...

**Questioner** : I heard, somewhere in a discourse, that if we talk when we are eating, we bind _Gnanavaran_ _karma_. Is that correct?

**Dadashri** : One is binding _Gnanavaran_ whole day, is he not? Not just by speaking, karma are indeed bound whole day long. Not just the _Gnanavaran_ , tremendous _mohaniya karma_ (illusion producing) are being bound too.

##  Avarans Increased in Locations of Religion

When one goes to listen to religious lecture, that is the time he binds _Gnanavaran karma_. Would anyone believe this? Will they not argue that? Beat up this Dada! Dada is useless, they will say. Hey, listen to what Dada is saying. Such words are not likely to come from me. Understand what I am saying. One keeps talking in a lecture, and the other person keeps listening. It goes in through one ear and it goes out through the other ear. He has not straightened (improved) even a bit. One has gone to the same place of religion to listen to dicourses, for twenty-five years, but he is worse than he was before. There are very rare, two to five people in a thousand, who straightened out.

**Questioner** : But how is _Gnanavaran karma_ bound there?

**Dadashri** : Where one is giving _Gnan_ (speaking about liberation), there if you nurture apathy (not maintain awareness), then it will bind _Gnanavaran_ as well as _Darshanavaran_ (Vision obstrucing) _karma_. This (location where the _Gnani Purush_ speaks) is not a shop where vegetables are being sold! If you are not alert and aware at a vegetable shop, it is fine.

**Questioner** : Is bondage created when one goes to listen to religious lectures?

**Dadashri** : Yes, everything goes the wrong way. Infact, that is why all this wrong has happened. Then when he steps outside, we ask the respected (!) businessman,'why did you discard it all? You should have taken it home.' _Mooah_ (mortal one)! The _Gnanvaran_ and _Darshanavaran karma_ increased. In which life will you suffer them? At least understand what the Lord is saying, understand alteast a word of it!

##  That Indeed is the Huge Gnanavaran

If a senior person is there even then he will say,' 'You don't understand, you do not have sense.' Here comes the one who wants to measure his intelligence! How can anyone speak like that? Then there will be clashes only, no? But one should not speak such hurtful worlds like 'You do not have sense.' An ordinary person will take on the responsibility by speaking such thing because of lack of understanding. But the one who has understanding will not take on such a responsibility. When the other person speaks negative then he will speak positive. Other person may ask anything because of lack of understanding but you cannot speak negative or wrong, because you are responsible for that.

'You don't understand', you cannot speak like that too. You can say that, 'Brother, at least think! You think at least a little.' If you say, 'no one has any sense,' does it mean all are stupid? Do people speak like this or not?

**Questioner:** They do. This intellectual people speak in this way only, that, 'This person does not have understanding.'

**Dadashri:** Yes, people would speak like that, 'You will not understand'. To say such thing is the biggest _Gnanavaran_ (that which veils the knowledge of the Self) _karma._ You cannot say that, 'You will not understand', but you should say, 'I will explain to you'. If you say that, 'You won't understand' then it will wound the heart of the opposite person.

**Questioner** : Is it possible that _Gnanavaran karma_ will not go away even after meeting a _Gnani_?

**Dadashri** : It will be destroyed if one is not obstinate.

**QuestIioner** : If one's _Gnanavaran karma_ is very strong, then he will not be able to get rid of it even if he met a _Gnani_ , will he?

**Dadashri** : If that is crooked, then everything of his, will beome crooked. If the owner is not crooked, nothing will happen.

##  Difference between Gnanavaran and aGnan

**Questioner** : How can the veil ( _avaran_ ) over _Gnan_ (the Self) be removed?

**Dadashri** : When you say 'I am Chandubhai (reader insert his name), I am her husband, I am doctor', that verily is the _Gnanavaran_. That much of the veil is destroyed when You received the _Gnan_. Now, more veils will be destroyed as You follow the _Agnas_. Egoism will not jump around. Enough veil of _Gnanavaran_ has been removed so that the discharging ego remains surrendered. However, _samadhi_ (absolute freedom from any effect of the mind-speech or body) will remain directly proportional to the percentage of the _Agnas_ followed.

**Questioner** : What is the difference between _aGnan_ (absence of Knowledge of the Self) and _Gnanavaran karma_?

**Dadashri** : _Gnanavaran_ is an _avaran_ (veil), whereas in _aGnan_ one is not at all aware of the Self. _Gnanavaran_ may increase or decrease, whereas _aGnan_ will remain as _aGnan_. 'We' have removed _aGnan_ for you but the entire _gnanavaraniya_ is not removed _._ 'We' have destroyed the _aGnan_. Certain part of _Gnanavaraniya karma_ is destroyed, but whatever is left, it will unveil gradually. Therefore, first goes the _aGnan_ , and then gradually goes the _Gnanavaraniya_. . When the veil ( _avaran_ ) goes away completely, there is the 'full moon' ( _purnima_ ). Until then the moon of the second day continues to grow.

*****

#  [2.3]

#  Darshanavaran Karma

##  This is how Both are Bound

What things are there in this candle? I will show you. One is _Gnanavaran karma_ , and the other is _Darshanavaran karma_. _Darshanavaran karma_ is only the established faith ( _shraddha_ ) that one has, only _darshan_ has happened. The vision ( _darshan_ ) that has happened; has happened wrong. You are eternal, and in vision you are a _jivatma_ ('I am living'), and therefore fear of dying has entered into you. Change in the _darshan_ has happened. That is the veil over Vision of the Self ( _Darshananavaran_ ) and that is why you see through these (physical) eyes (only).

**Questioner** : Please give an example of _Darshananavaran_.

**Dadashri** : If I put a cloth over my face, can you see Dada?

**Questioner** : No I cannot.

**Dadashri** : That is called _darshananavaran_ (veil over vision). You have the eyes, but there is _avaran_ (veil) over it. You will be able to see when that veil moves aside. That is considered _darshananavaran_ gone.

Veil over _darshan_ (vision) has occurred. Even the eyes get veils of cataracts, and other things. There are all kinds of _avarans_ (curtains). They are such that you cannot know them, however, _Darshanavaran_ (veil over Vision of the Self) is always there.

However, there is infinite energy of the Vision within to See other things, but what can one do if there is _avaran_ (curtain)? Poor man sees all he can through the eyes. He cannot 'see' anything else so he accepts as correct, whatever he sees with the eyes. He understands this _Gnan_ as much as he can through intellect ( _buddhi_ ). Otherwise, there lies infinite _Gnan_ within, but we say it is based on whatever power (intellect) we have, whatever stock we have.

**Questioner** : Dada, how did binding of these _Gnanavaraniya and Darshanavaraniya_ happen? Please explain that with an example.

**Dadashri** : The belief about his self (after birth) as, 'I am a little boy', is the the binding of _Gnanavaran karma._

Even when you have been taught that you are _Shuddhatma_ in your past life, _Gnanavaran_ will arise again due to association with other people. But our _Gnan_ is such that _Gnanavaran_ will arise, but then it automatically goes away when he becomes of understanding age. All of that will automatically go away when he meets even a slight _nimit_ (someone instrumental in removing the veil). But we have to say that _aGnan_ (knowledge that binds) that people give, we have to call it _Gnanavaran_ , do we not? Then they name one, 'Chandu'. You have to call him 'Chandu' do we not? 'I am Chandu', and the he will show this is your dad, that is your mother. Then dad has to be referred to as 'Daddy'. All are _Atmas_ (the Self), and we think that daddy has come. So in that, the _Gnanavaran_ \- _Darshanavaran_ are bound. First the belief (conviction) is established with 'I am Chandu', and so _Darshanavaran_ (veil over Vision of the Self) happens. Then, as it sets in knowledge ( _gnan_ ), becomes the experience ( _anubhav_ ), _Gnanavaran_ (veil over the Experience of the Self) happens. Then, when this sets, all kinds of _antarai_ (obstacles) begin to happen, and then _moha_ (illusory attachment, parent of attachment and abhorrence) arises. It is called _mohaniya_. _Mohaniya_ _karma_ is bound and business starts all around.

What shows one, 'This is my father-in-law, this is my uncle etc?' It is because one has a veil (over vision) that makes him see it wrong (not as it is). It is wrong vision, _mithyatva_ vision. _Mithyatva_ _darshan_ means veil with wrong vision. and that itself is _dravyakarma_ (combination of veiled vision and effective body in discharge).

And the _avaran_ (veil) are _Gnanavaran_ , _Darshanavaran_ , that is all. There are no other _avarans_. _Avaran_ means to tie a bandage over your eyes and then go to the station. Is it better to go with a bandage or without a bandage over your eyes?

**Questioner** : It is much better to go without them.

**Dadashri** : All these people wander with bandages around their eyes and they have started business (of serious worldly interaction), and keep colliding because of inability able to see. When asked, he will reply, 'I can see with the eyes' Hey, that is not to be seen. You collided because you cannot see. Any time one collides, it is because of not being able to see; for not knowing.

**Questioner** : That is why you called it a _Darshan_ _avaran_?

**Dadashri** : _Darshan avaran_ and _Gnanavaran_. With _Darshan_ _avaran_ (veil over Vision) one does not have any _sooj_ (intuition and clarity). Do many people not say that they do not have _sooj_?

**Questioner** : Yes, that is correct.

**Dadashri** : That is _darshan_ _avaran_. And that _avaran_ will go away after some time through penance ( _tapa_ ), and then he will say, 'I have clarity of understanding ( _sooj_ )'.

##  Sooj is Darshan

Absence of _sooj_ (clarity of vision) within is called _darshanavaran_ _karma_. Many people keep getting entangled. If you ask one lady to make _daal_ - _bhaat_ - _kadhee_ - _puri_ - _doodhpak_ - _bhajiyas_ (full Indian meal), she will prepare them within an hour and a half, while another lady will keep getting entangled for three hours. Why does she keep getting entangled? It is because she does not have _sooj_ (intuition, clarity of vision). Do not take this personal, okay?

**Questioner** : Is the arising of clarity in vision ( _sooj_ ) _dravyakarma_?

**Dadashri** : The arising of _sooj_ is _dravyakarma_ (subtle effect karma) and the lack of _sooj_ is also _dravyakarma_. If an unpleasant guest comes, and you agree that a good thing has happened, then more clarity of vision ( _sooj_ ) will be the result for you (in the next life) and if you say, 'what the heck, why is he here,' then _sooj_ will decrease. So you yourself have covered your vision, there is no one else to cause a veil over your vision. You have been colliding because of the blindfold of your own creation.

**Questioner** : What is the difference between understanding ( _samaj_ ) and _sooj_?

**Dadashri** : _Samaj_ (understanding) is _sooj_. Understanding is _darshan_ (Vision), which can take one all the way to _keval Gnan_ (absolute knowledge) as it increases.

##  Eventually all Veils are Lifted Away From Darshan

**Questioner** : Are _sooj_ and _darshan_ the same?

**Dadashri** : They are one, but people take _darshan_ to a much lower level. Darshan is a very high thing. _Vitarags_ (the fully enlighted Ones) have called _sooj_ (clarity of Vision) as _darshan_. As one proceeds forward, having wandered around on the eleventh mile, he has attained the _darshan_ of that. His development increases as he moves forward, and with that his _darshan_ goes higher. And when one day light arises within that, 'I cannot be this (the body complex), I am the Self', then _Darshan_ becomes _avaran_ (veil) free.

**Questioner** : Where does _sooj_ come from?

**Dadashri** : As the _avaran_ goes away, _sooj_ happens. As he flows along (in life after life) the veil is lifted up and _sooj_ is there. _Sooj_ will increase continuously.

**Questioner** : Is _sooj_ inspired by the Self? _Sooj_ should be inspired by the Self, should it not, then only it will happen, will it not?

**Dadashri** : It is not the result of the inspiration (prompt) of the Self. It is a part of the Self that has been veiled, and it is the part that has come through that veil, the part that has manifest is called _sooj_. And the veiled part is considered as _Darshanavaran_ , from which _sooj_ increases to complete _Darshan_ ( _sarvadarshi – complete vision_ ).

##  Gnan Vidhi Removes the Veil Over Darshan

**Questioner** : How is this _Gnanavaraniya_ and _Darshanavaraniya_ ( _karma_ ) in life?

**Dadashri** : Why does this gentleman keeps getting entangled, even he is the Self? Clarity of vision ( _sooj_ ) does not happen, no? Poor man becomes entangled as he does not understand everything. It is called _darshanavaraniya_ _karma_ at that time. Do many people not say that 'I do not have the _sooj_ ' (clarity of what to do)? That is the fruit of _darshanavaraniya_ _karma_. Many people say, 'I do not even have the _sooj_ '. 'My business has become like this, I do not have any _sooj_ what to do', that is _darshanavaraniya_ _karma_. And when one has the _sooj_ (vision); but does not have the know-how of how to run the business; that is _gnanavraniya_ _karma_.

_Sooj_ has happened Understanding (Vision) has happened that 'there is something', that 'I am _Shuddhatma_ ', but now You do not know 'what it is'; that is _Gnanavraniya_ _karma_. That is why we keep getting together (in _satsang_ ). Now we are trying to destroy _Gnanavaraniya karma_ , _Darshanavaraniya_ _karma_ have already been destroyed. _Darshanavaraniya_ _karma_ is destroyed first, and then _Gnanavaraniya_ _karma_ gets destroyed gradually.

**Questioner** : Is 'I am Chandubhai' considered _Gnanavaran_ ( _Gnanvaraniya_ ) _karma_?

**Dadashri** : No, _Gnanavaran_ is a different thing. 'I am Chandubhai' is itself the _Darshanavaran_ (Veil over Vision of the Self). That is the wrong belief, and that indeed is the _Darshanavaran_.

**Questioner** : And _Gnanavaran_ ( _karma_ )?

**Dadashri** : That is considered wrong _gnan_ (knowledge).

**Questioner** : Ego the doer of wrong _gnan_ and wrong belief, is it not? It is Chandubhai, is it not? That verily is the whole _avaran_?

**Dadashri** : Yes, that indeed is the _avaran_.

**Questioner** : When is that destroyed?

**Dadashri** : We give you _Gnan_ , so it will surely be destroyed, will it not? _Darshanavaran_ (Veil over the Vision as the Self) is gone for sure. Then in that, its (the non-Self's) _bhaavko_ (the one with the relative view and intent) remain. It's (the non-Self complex's) _bhaavko_ remain, and they are the instigators of the doer ( _karavdavey_ ). That is when You have to remain separate.

_Darshanavaran_ is that which gives rise to causes (charge karma). The causes are created through lack of understanding. 'I am Chandubhai', is wrong belief. The wrong belief itself is _darshanavaran_.

**Questioner** : The _Gnan Vidhi_ that You do, destroys _Darshanavaraniya_ the veil over _Darshan_ , and hence the Seeing ( _Darshan_ ) begins.

**Dadashri** : When 'we' give _Gnan_ , one has the awareness that 'there is something', that means _Darshanavaran_ is gone. Then 'what it is' is decided, as it comes into experience ( _anubhav_ ), and that menas the _Gnanavaran_ has gone. _Darshanavaran_ has been destroyed, has it not? All of it is destroyed. That is the _keval Darshan_ (absolute Vision) 'we' give You. That is _kshyayak_ _Darshan_ (eternal permanent vision). When _Darshanavaran_ gets destroyed, it is called _kshayak_ _Darshan_.

**Questioner** : Similarly, what is the difference between _Darshanavaran_ (veil over Vision) and _mithyadarshan_ (wrong vision)?

**Dadashri** : _Mithyadarshan_ is gone and also _Darshanavaran_ is also gone. _Gnanavaraniya_ is not gone.

*****

#  [2.4]

#  Mohaniya Karma

##  I-ness is Mohaniya Karma

How many attributes of this candle did 'we' show you?

**Questioner** : Two.

**Dadashri** : And they are called _dravyakarma_ \- what you see through _moha_ (illusory vision); _dravyakarma_ is eyeglasses. Eyeglasses in the form of _moha_. One will say, 'Here comes my wife', and I am her husband. Wow! What a husband!

_Mohaniya_ means to believe 'I am' ( _potapanu_ ) where one is not, and the relations that result from that belief, are believed to be one's own. What is not yours at all, to believe it as yours, like, these children are my children and this son-in-law is my son-in-law too. Hey, how long will you carry these wrong beliefs in your head? Those are the seeds for a next life; karma that are heavily destructive; _mohaniya._

##  The Self is Forgotten due to Mohaniyakarma

What _mohaniya_ means is, say Nagindas who is like a head of the town, he drinks this much alcohol before he goes to sleep. He regularly drinks before he eats, and then goes to sleep. The regular drinking will indeed bring on _avaran_ (veil over awareness), but that will not be evident. Now one day his friend comes to visit him and he drinks couple of extra shots of whisky, so will he remain Nagindas? Such a wise man, and he would say, 'I am the President of India'. Would you not understand that he is under the influence of alcohol?

Hey you! You are such a wise man and what are you talking about? So this is the influence of the alcohol he has drunk. His own authority is gone; he lost his control. Whose control is it? What is the influence of? Now he says, 'I am the President of India', and that is _moha_ (illusory vision that attaches). He believes to be what he is not. So to say it otherwise is all considered _moha_. 'I am her husband, I am his father, I am his son', that is all _moha_.

One would ask that how long would the influence last. It is as long as the intoxication lasts. And the psychological effect that is caused by someone saying that 'You are a husband, you are a husband, you are a husband', then he will continue to feel that he is a husband. So this is _moha_.

There is _moha_ , so _avaran_ over (the awareness of) 'Who am I?' comes, then by the other way with, 'I am her husband, his uncle', _Gnanavaran_ ( veil over Knowledge of the Self) is considered to have happened. First _Darshanavaran_ (Veil over Vision of the Self) happens, and so 'our' _shraddha_ (faith; belief, conviction) is totally changed. _Shraddha_ 'I am _Shuddhatma_ ' goes away, and 'I am Chandubhai' is accepted as correct. Then _Gnanavaran_ happens. It will also come into experience. Then _mohaniya_ begins. Beginning is _mohaniya_ , then there is new _Darshanavaran_ , and then new _Gnanavaran_ will keep coming.

He is saying that because of the influence of the alcohol. He forgets the Self because of such illusion that arises for him. Similarly, through association with the worldly people, we believe happiness lies where they believe happiness is. Had you believed happiness through association with the _Gnani_ , you would have found the final resolution. Therefore, we went looking for happiness where people believe it is. _Mohaniya_ _avaran_ came because of that. Then you 'ate' (took more of that 'seen' through the veil, and that illusory 'food' turned into alcohol, and that is why whole day one runs around claiming 'this is my father-in-law, this is my uncle etc. Are they really that? Has one ever been a father-in-law forever? For how long is he a father-in-law? He is a father-in-law until his son's wife files for divorce. Therefore, all these relatives are temporary adjustments and You are permanent. And when you went for those temporary adjustments, you too became temporary.

And then you tell the doctor, 'Sir, save me'. How is the one, whose own sister died, is going to save you? Does a doctor's sister not die? But yet one pleads, 'Sir please save me'. Why is that? It is because fear has entered him, he has fear of dying. Just as that Nagindas says, 'I am the President', that is what has happened here. That is called _moha_. The influence and authority ( _amal_ ) is of someone else (non-Self), not of the Self. The _amal_ of the Self is gone, and this is the _amal_ (pervasive influence) of the non-Self. So one entered into the control and realm ( _satta_ ) of the non-Self. And one has started believing the realm and control of the non-Self as his own control, that 'I am the one doing it'. That started all the problems.

##  Main cause is Moha

And _mohaniya karma_ , 'I am Chandubhai' is verily _moha_ , what other _moha_ is there? All other _moha_ arise when this _moha_ is there. Otherwise, no other _moha_ will arise if that _moha_ is not there. Main cause,'I am Chandubhai' itself is the _moha_. Now how can one destroy such _moha_ even in thousands of life times? _Moha_ , 'I am Chandubhai' will not go away. If that is the root of _moha_ , then tree of _moha_ will continue, will it not? Look, for You, the root of _moha_ is gone, and therefore everything has begun to dry fast. Then one will say, 'I am a guru ( _bapji_ )'. He says that even when he has not known the Self, because his eyes (vision) is veled. He is the Self and yet he says that which is not matching.

**Questioner** : Layers (of veils) have come over the Self.

**Dadashri** : Layes have come over it, bandages, eyeglasses. One sees black when he wears black eyeglasses and yellow when he wears yellow eyeglasses. He sees whatever kind of eyeglasses he wears.

There are only two, _Gnanavaran_ and _Darshanavaran_. Main cause of this is _moha_. 'I am Chandubhai' is _moha_.

**Questioner** : There are three such words – _moha_ , _mahamoha_ and _vyamoha_.

**Dadashri** : _Vyamoha_ means extra ( _vishesha_ ) _moha_ , it means that one has become _murchhit_ (lost awareness). Then he does not have awareness. There is no awareness in _vyamoha_ , there is (relative) awareness in _moha_.

**Questioner** : And the third is _mahamoha_.

**Dadashri** : Even in _mahamoha_ there is awareness.

##  What Makes one Deluded is Moha

_Mohaniya_ _karma_ means, that it is not worth for one to have _moha_ (illusory attachment) about something, and yet there is attraction towards it, because the glasses are bad. _Dravyakarma_ is in the form of glasses. One's vision is according to the quality of his glasses.

Now, _mohaniya_ has arisen because of the two _dravya_ _karma_ , _gnanavaran_ and _darshanavaran_ , seeing ( _darshan_ ) stopped, stopped from coming into experience ( _gnan_ ), therefore it is _moha_. He saw what he liked, in that only; he got stuck. Just as a moth gets stuck at the light, he gets stuck in everything. That is _mohaniya_ _karma_ , and is the third _dravya_ _karma_. Why does he suddenly get attracted to whatever he sees? It is because _mohaniya_ karma exists.

When he comes to the market he will not refrain from buying the fireworks. He would not have bought them had he not come to the market. Nothing, if he does not see anything. When _moha_ arises instantly on seeing something; that is _mohaniya_ _karma_. He becomes unaware ( _bebhaan_ ), he even forgets his own self. He forgets that he is in debt. When loses awareness like this ( _murchhit_ ); that is due to _dravyakarma_. _Murchha_ will not happen when _dravyakarma_ is exhausted.

_Gnanavaran_ and _Darshanavaran_ , it is because of these two that this man will climb all kinds of mountains and fall into all knds of valleys, that is _mohaniya_. Effect of these two is _mohaniya_. That is why there is _moha._ Otherwise how can the poor fellow have _moha_? How is it a fault of a blind man if he cannot see as it is?

That is temporary happiness, whereas this is permanent happiness. How many kinds of _moha_ are there? Endless kind, are they not? And then he says, 'I am the abode of infinite bliss', so then I do not need any other _moha_. One is trapped in this, now one has to become free from this. That is why we say, 'Because _mohaniya_ (that which deludes) is of countless types, in front of them, I am the abode of infinite bliss.'

##  One had Filled in Heavy Mohaniyakarma

**Questioner** : Out of these eight karma, which is the most difficult one?

**Dadashri** : _Mohaniya_ _karma_ , what else?

**Questioner** : We want to become free from _mohaniya_ _karma_ , but our opposing forces (karmic account) are such that we cannot become even slightly free from the state of _moha_.

**Dadashri** : No one can become free from _mohaniya_ at all, can one? Not without the grace of a _Gnani_ _Purush_. He may try much, but he falls; fall anywhere, he will fall in a sea or do anything, but _mohaniya_ will not go away without the grace of a _Gnani_ _Purush_. Only grace can remove _mohaniya_. One can get rid of some of the other _dravyakarma_ by himself, but _mohaniya_ cannot be removed. Mohaniya means _murchha_ , one has lost awareness. It is only when a _Gnani_ _Purush_ brings him back into awareness; it will work, will it not? Nothing can be done (for liberation) without a _Gnani_ _Purush_.

##  It is the King of Infinite Karma

That is why Shrimad Rajchandra has said,

' _Karma anant prakaar na, tema mukhye aatha,_

Tema mukhye mohaniya, hanaaya tey kahoon paatha.'

'Amongst infinite types of karma, eight are the main,

Of which _mohaniya_ is main, let me tell you how it can be destroyed.'

There are infinite types of karma. They have been separated in parts, and finally arranged in eight categories. It was felt that they could not be fitted in less than eight parts, so they were left as eight. This is the least number of categories possible.

Which is the supreme head of all these? Who is the king? It is the _mohaniya_ karma. This has all arisen on the basis of _mohaniya_. Based on what have the eight karma arisen? What is the root of them? It is _moha_. Now I will explain to you how that _moha_ , that root of all that gets destroyed, how _mohaniya_ can be destroyed . There is a main root in it; everything will go away, if that main root goes away.

' _Karma mohaniya bheda bey, darshan charitra naam,_

Haney bodha vitaragata, achooka upaya aam.'

'Mohaniya karma is of two kinds, _darshan_ and _charitra_ by name,

The knowledge of _vitaragata_ destroys ( _darshan moha_ ),

This is the unfailing solution.'

-Shrimad Rajchandra

There are two divisions of _mohaniya_ karma. One is _darshan_ _mohaniya_ and the other is _charitra_ _mohaniya_. _Darshan_ _mohaniya_ is removed through _Gnan_ in the Kramik path, it is removed through liberating knowledge ( _bodha_ ). And in the _Akram_ it goes away through science of separation ( _bheda vignan_ ). What remains, now that _darshan_ _mohaniya_ is gone? It is the _charitra_ _mohaniya_. It is _charitra_ _mohaniy_ ; discharge _moha_ or effect _moha_. There are cause _moha_ and effect _moha_. Causes _moha_ ( _darshan mohaniya_ ) is gone, now even if you do not like that _moha_ , its effect is bound to come. It is a reaction of the past, therefore it is a _charitra_ _moha_. In the kramik path, liberating knowledge from a Sadguru destroys the causes _moha_ , and here in _Akram_ science it is destroyed through science of separation, and _charitra_ _moha_ is destroyed through _vitaragata_. In that kramik path, one will not do any _raag_ - _dwesh_ towards the one cursing him; that will destroy his _charitra_ _mohaniya_. And here _artadhyan_ (adverse internal meditation that hurts the self) and _raudradhyan_ (adverse internal meditation that hurts the self and the others) stop and _vitaragata_ indeed arises. With this one follows the five Agnas and settles with equanimity.

After attaining this _Gnan_ , your entire _moha_ is gone. Not an iota of it remains. How much of it remains? All that remains is conduct _moha_ ( _vartan_ _moha_ ). In your conduct, one will see that how much _moha_ you have! All your conduct will be with _moha_. It is called _vartan_ (conduct) _moha_. I too have _vartan_ _moha_. Do I not sit down to eat all this? Would I not take more _kadhee_ if I liked its taste? It is _vartan_ _moha_ ; it is not real _moha_. It is a discharge ( _nikali_ ) _moha_. It the one that is on its way out; going to its own home. It lets you know that it is leaving, when it leaves. And the real _moha_ is that which sows new seed of karma. It is what is making the world go round and round. That entire _moha_ goes away in an hour (in _Gnan vidhi_ ). It is completely destroyed. All this will go away only when _moha_ is destroyed, will it not? That _moha_ too is _dravyakarma_. We have removed everything, quickly.

'We' have given you the essential element ( _tattva,_ the Self) of the whole Jain and all the religions. And it is _kriyakari_ (works on its own from within). It works on its own it by itself will take you to _moksha_ automatically. It will not let leave you until it takes you to _moksha_.

##  Difference Between Darshanavaran and Darshanmohaniya

When one attains the Self, _mohaniya_ _karma_ goes away. How long is _mohaniya_ for? As long as 'I am Chandubhai' exists. Then with 'I am _Shuddhatma'_ there is no _mohaniya_ (illusion producing). But, _Shuddhatma_ should be the prevailing awareness ( _laksha_ ). You do not achieve anything by just saying it. And _mohaniya_ is indeed the cause for obstruction ( _antaraya_ ). This is because the fruit of _mohaniya_ is obstruction. But the Lord has separated them to recognize _mohaniya_ and _antaraya_ (obstruction). So the two are gone, what is _mohaniya_ the fruit of? It is the fruit of _darshanavaran_ (vision veiling). When _darshanavaran_ goes away, then all the four are gone. Your ( _Mahatma's_ ) _darshanavaran_ is gone.

**Questioner** : _Darshanavaran_ and _darshanmohaniya_ have been separated.

**Dadashri** : Yes, what is _moha_? _Adarshan_ (lack of Vision). _Adarshan_ means that which is, is not visible, and this _Darshan_ sees what is, as it is. That means that _darshanavaran_ is gone.

**Questioner** : What is the difference between _darshan avaraniya_ and _darshan_ _mohaniya_.

**Dadashri** : That is _avaran_ (veil), it is a covered up thing. That whole _Darshan_ has been covered up. The _Gnan_ has been covered up. Whatever amount of it opened up, only that much is open. The rest is still covered up.

And _mohaniya_ has covered all that up. Therefore whatever _bhaav_ that should happen ( _swabhaav,_ I am the Self), does not happen. _Mohabhaav_ happens, deluded state ( _sammohan_ ) arises. Because of covering that up, one does not become aware of the Self, and thus delusion happens. Therefore _mohaniya_ karma and _moha_ exists, and they create an obstruction ( _antaraya_ ). Just consider everything an obstacle ( _antaraya_ ) from the second one becomes separate from the Self, from the second distance arose. From the second obstacles to the Self happened, obstacles keep occurring ceaselessly.

Now, that _darshan_ _mohaniya_ is a gross ( _sthula_ ) thing. _Darshan_ _mohaniya_ is called _mithyatva_. _Mohaniya_ , _antaraya_ , _Gnanavaran_ , and _Darshanavaran_ strong collective force of these four, is called _mithyatva_. When there is further movement with _mithyatva_ , there are three parts to it. _Mithyatva_ _moha_ happens, _mishra_ _moha_ happens, and _samyaktva_ _moha_ happens. These three pieces of _mohaniya_ happen. Now when _mithyatva_ _moha_ at times becomes less, one comes into _mishra_ _mohaniya_. This is correct and that is correct. Path to _moksha_ , this path of temples and everything, that is correct and that of the worldly interaction ( _vyavahar_ ) is correct. Scriptures are correct, and so is the home, wife and children, business are correct. In both places they are the results of _moha_. When one goes there, he is in _moha_ , and he is in _moha_ when he comes here ( _satsang_ ). If he is in _moha_ on only one side, it is called _mithyatva_ _moha_. Those both _moha_ are there. One is happy while he is in a temple, when he goes to _upashraya_ (place of worship) he will not like to get up and leave if gets to hear the talk, and _moha_ arises when he goes to work. _Mishra_ _mohaniya_ is _darshan_ _mohaniya_. When _mithyatva_ _mohaniya_ and _mishra_ _mohaniya_ leave, then he attains _samkit_ – right vision, right belief. When anger-prid-deceit-greed leave; one attains _samkit_. _Upsham samkit_ and then from _upsham samkit_ to _kshayopksham samkit_ will take _ardha pudgal paravartan_ which means one will have to wander for a very long time _._ After that which is _kshaypksham_ , one wanders for a long time ( _ardhapudgal_ _paravartan_ ) for _kshayopksham_ to become _kshayak._ _Kshayak_ happens when _samyaktava_ _mohaniya_ goes away. There is not a single person in India who has _samyaktava_ _mohaniya_. Great work would be done if there was one. _Samyaktava_ _mohaniya_ means that nothing except the Self comes to him internally. What must the Self be like? What must the Self be? How can it be recognized? How can it be attained? His _moha_ is all in knowing the Self. Who is one like that here? Whole day there is no other thing. He is constantly in that (about knowing the Self). How many people are out there who are constantly in that? People cannot maintain that even for an hour, when this has to be maintained constantly.

The one who has decided that 'this' is what Self is and he does not have any doubt, so _samyaktava_ _mohaniya_ is gone, he has attained _kshayak_ _samkit_.

So for us this _samyaktava_ _moha_ goes away. 'This is the Self' is decided without a doubt, there is no doubt at all. The Self is exactly what Dada says it is and it has manifested in us. Then there is no place for any doubt. Otherwise nobody's doubt or uncertainty about the Self has gone awy in this world.

When this uncertainty goes away, when the doubt goes away, then everything is gone. And what else does one need when the Self is present? Manifest _Chaitaniya_ (the Self) is present. It will be present even when you do not recall it. What else do you need? Do you not keep going back to the bliss you experienced on the first night after the _Gnan Vidhi_? Discharge of karma does not happen immediately there, do they? When it is time for the discharge to unfold, he becomes entangled. And You have Seen that state, have You not? So in the first hour (in _Gnan_ _vidhi_ ) one becomes _jitendriya_ _jina_ (victorious over all senses and organs of activity). Then in the next hour, one becomes _jitamoha_ _jina_. One is a _jitamoha jina_ until the final elimination of _moha,_ when one is called a _kshinamoha jina._

Where it is cash, where the Self ( _potey_ ) becomes present, the _Atma_ becomes present; there is nothing in the world that remains constantly present.

Tirthankaras have given adequate proofs, have they not? Do you experience what I am telling you? _Gnanavaran_ , _Darshanavaran_ , how systematically; stepwise it has been said. Why is that? The main cause of all the eight karma is the _Darshanavaran_. This root cause is destroyed first. Then your entire _Darshanavaran_ is all gone.

**Questioner** : Which is destroyed first, _darshan_ _mohaniya_ or _darshanavaran_?

**Dadashri** : Both _moha_ and _avaran_ are destroyed together. They are fractured simultaneously within an hour, not one after the other.

Entire _darshanavaran_ is destroyed, but what happens now? Those other karma that unfold, create entanglements. They will not let one benefit from this _Darshan_. Otherwise like me, you too will be able to See and say it as it is. But they (unfolding karma) do not allow you to benefit from it ( _Darshan_ ); they will all create entanglements.

**Questioner** : It seems that there is a lot of stock of karma still filled there.

**Dadashri** : What it is like that, if we have given someone the _Gnan_ and told him to remain in the _Gnan_ , he will say, 'Yes, I will do that tomorrow.' And then if we send him to a thousand people to ask them all kinds of things, how much will he remain in the _Gnan_? If you keep sending him to all these people and tell him to ask them this and ask that, how long will he remain in the _Gnan_? That is how these circumstances ( _saiyogo_ ) will entangle you. 'We' do not have many such circumstances, and all our circumstances are in the form of _gneya_ (that which is to be known). For You also, they are in _gneya_ form, but they will not remain as _gneya_ for you, because they unfold one after another in force. This is because it is _Akram_ , is it not?

He will not be entangled if it was _kramic._ _Kramic_ means that all the stock of karma has been taken care of. (For you, if you take the kramik path) even after millions of life times, that stock will not be cleared; there will not be end to this. For example, when will the stock be taken care of now? When will I leave home and take _diksha_ (renounce worldly life) and thus find an end to the stock? 'No, no sir, I cannot do it. I am in no condition to be able to leave home.' So then what happened? Just by saying that, one creates obstacle against _diksha_. _Gnanantaraya_ (obstacle towards _Gnan_ ), _darshanavaran_ (vision obscuring) increased. So this is the liability.

This is the beauty of _Akram_ _Gnan_ that has unfolded. One has never heard of such a wonder, has he? It is very difficult for even one fraction of _darshanavaran_ to decrease. On the contrary, in this current era of the time cycle it keeps increasing, how is it going to decrease? Two percent decreases while forty percent increases.

##  How Much Charge Karma in Akram?

**Questioner** : So _mohaniya_ is the greatest cause of binding _dravyakarma_?

**Dadashri** : _Mohaniya_ , what else? Your _moha_ that binds _dravya_ _karma_ is gone. Which _moha_ now remains for you? Discharge _moha_. You might wear _saris_ and good clothes, but charge mind ( _bhaav mun_ ) is not there. This is all discharge _moha_ that remains, and the rest of the world continues to bind new _moha_ ; which is the root cause. Your ( _Mahatma_ ) root cause has been destroyed. So charge _moha_ is gone, all that remains is the discharge _moha_. In the _kramic_ path, charge _moha_ and discharge _moha_ go on simultaneously.

**Questioner** : So, new _dravya karma_ does not arise for us now?

**Dadashri** : Even if it does, how much? It is only as much as You follow 'our' Agnas, not any more. Only one or two more lives will come, and those will be of _punyai_ (merit karma effect). You will not have all these difficulties. You bind highest of all _punyai_ by following the Agnas, which will allow you to sit by the side of Simandhar Swami all the time.

*****

#  [2.5]

#  Antarayakarma

##  Obstacle Karma

##  Despite Having it, it Cannot be Enjoyed, That is Antaraya

The fourth _ghati karma_ – that which is destructive, _karma_ that destroys human life-- is the _antaraya_ (obstacle creating or resulting) _karma_. _Antaraya_ is that which will not allow you to enjoy something, even though you have it. Yes, even when you have everything, you are not able to benefit anything from it. You are sitting down to eat and there is a plate full of food in front of you, and you are just about to eat, and the commissioner comes and says, 'Chandubhai get up, get up this minute'. You ask him, 'What if I finish my meal first?' He will say, 'No, no, not a minute longer. You'll have to get up right now'. That is called _antaraya_ _karma_. You had the food and yet you were not able to eat it. So, within You there is _Gnan_ (Knowledge), there is _Darshan_ (Vision), there is _shakti_ (energy), there is _nirbhayata_ (fearlessness); you have all these attributes within you and yet you are not able to experience them. You have bound _antaraya_ (obstacles), you have built such walls. You have knowingly built them, and now you claim that you are trapped. Such are the _antaraya karma._

##  This is how Antaraya are Created

**Questioner** : I want to understand more about what _antaraya_ _karma_ is.

**Dadashri** : If you say you do not have any desire to come to _satsang_ , you created an _antaraya_ (obstacle) there. And if you say you have a desire, then _antaraya_ leave. These are all self created _antarayas_. _Antaraya_ means a wall (distance).

What is _antaraya_ _karma_? If your son is feeding some Brahmins, and you say, 'What will you gain from doing this? Why do you feed these people? Why don't you feed Dada's _Mahatmas_ instead?' You bind merit karma there, but you created tremendous _antaraya_ , for which you will not be able to eat even when you sit down to eat. It (food) will go away even when it is in your hands. That is _antaraya_. However many antarayas you have created; only those are yours.

You create obstructions through intellect, in whatever others were acquiring by saying, 'Why are you giving here in this place?' You cannot say anything when someone is giving something to someone. Saying anything is being over-wise through the intellect ( _buddhi_ ) is it not? It will kill you. If someone else is giving, why do you have to say anything? I had done the same with my _buddhi_. That was only creating _antaraya_.

Despite having the food, you are not able to eat, despite having enjoyable things, you are not able to enjoy them – that is all _antaraya_. There are many such _antarayas_. _Labhantaraya_ (obstacles against a gain), _bhog_ _antaraya_ (obstacles against enjoyment). _Oopbhog_ _antaraya_ (obstacles against repeated enjoyment), _danantaraya_ (obstacles in receiving and giving charity), _viryaantaraya_ (obstacles against energy); man has all these _antarayas_. Despite being the absolute Self ( _Paramatma_ ) one is suffering a life of an animal today. There is no doubt that one is a _Paramatma_. In my Vision I can See all are _Paramatmas_. One is a _Paramatma_ , but what can be done? One has come into an inescapable grip, one is trapped, one has come into bondage – that is why I am giving this _Gnan_ , so that he can become free.

All these obstacles ( _antarayas_ ) are self created, from the past life. In your past life when you had mangos, you felt, 'What is there to eat in it? Is this anything worth eating? It is like this and that.' We have done all these kind of things and it is fine for that life, but in this life, we don't get it. You will not encounter it, you learn from other people that mango is one of the best fruit, it is full of vitamins and goodness and so you look for it, but you don't find any. Because of your _tarchhod_ (contemptuous rejection) towards it, you created an obstacle.

##  Do Pratikraman the Moment an Obstacle Happens

Now if a man is giving a gift of cloth worth hundred rupees to a Brahmin, and you say, 'sir, he will sell it later'. You created an obstacle. When he was giving, you created a barrier and therefore as an effect of your karma, you will have to suffer _antraya karma_. This is considered an _antaraya_ , when someone is doing something for someone else, why do you have to create an obstacle? One uses his _buddhi_ (intellect) that all this is going towards a wrong cause. That is not your look out. He is the giver and the other person is the receiver.

Your son changes his clothes twice a day but if you tell him, 'why are you wasting money? You are wasting all your clothes, you are spoiling everything', by saying even this, you create an _antaraya_. You will not find clothes to wear (in your next life). Do not create obstacles for anyone.

**Questioner** : But there are certain obligations that arise, and so we have to create some _antaraya_ , don't we? When a person is the head of a household, it is necessary for him to say something.

**Dadashri** : The result of which will come, without fail. Or else, one should wash it off. Do the _karma_ , but it should be washed off. There is always a weapon to wash it off. Don't people with responsibility to run households, have to do everything? But since you have taken this _Gnan_ , you have been given the weapon of _pratikraman_. Those with the weapon will quickly wash it off.

You neither get the things you want, nor do things work out the way you plan – that is all _antaraya karma._

Then _antaraya_ means that no matter how highly educated one is, he cannot find a job anywhere he goes. And if the _antaraya_ is broken, he will make an application and get the job right away.

How does _antaraya_ karma work? There are many people who have everything. If they invite you to their home for a meal, you sit down to dine and they serve you _shrikhand_ (sweetened yogurt with saffron and nuts) and _puri_ (deep fried bread), while he sits down to eat a _rotlo_ (dry millet bread). Would you not realize that there is an _antaraya_ here? He sits down to eat _rotlo_ and yogurt. He is eating what the poor eat and he serves you a gourmet meal? There must be some _antaraya_ , right? What _antaraya_? The doctors have told him, ' _mooah_ (mortal)! If you eat that, you will die!' The poor man has _antaraya_. Now, a person has all kinds of _antarayas_ , _antaraya_ in eating, _antaraya_ in drinking. Does that not happen? Have you ever seen that? There is _shrikhand_ and everything, but one is not allowed to eat. Because of the _antraya_ you have created, it will not let you eat despite the food being there. There is something enjoyable but it will not let you enjoy it; that is all _antaraya_. There are many such _antarayas_.

##  Avaran and Antaraya

**Questioner** : There are two words, _avaran_ and _antaraya_ ; is _avaran_ physical and _antaraya_ mental?

**Dadashri** : _Avaran_ is a subtle thing, whereas _antaraya_ is not that subtle. Say a beggar comes here and you see someone giving him five rupees worth of food or something of the kind and you say, 'Hey, why are you giving him that?', then you bind _antaraya_ karma for yourself. Even when you know that that person is going to misuse it, he will sell it and buy alcohol with the money, you will still bind _antaraya-karma_ for saying that. Why are you creating an obstacle against what he is giving? You should not cause such _antaraya karma_. People bind all kinds of _antarayas._

##  This Causes Antaraya Against Eating Food

One time there was rationing of groceries, so there was a limit on the amount of rice one could buy. There was a couple. The husband would complain as the wife would overfill her plate with rice - the poor lady was a little heavy and she needed to eat, so why not let her! Perhaps she did not like _bhakari_ (wheat bread). The husband would nag her every day. One day the lady told me, 'Everyday when I eat, he does not let me eat in peace!' _Mooah_! (Hey you, dying man!), what kind of a man are you? This is called _antaraya karma_. You will not get any rice to eat. Why are you doing this? Why not sit peacefully? He did not have the understanding and thought that the problem will be solved by saying such things. Let's suppose that she eats less the next day, but obstacles will be created against you, won't they?

**Questioner** : But we do not know all this, and that is why we create many such obstacles. Today is the first time that we have come to know of this.

**Dadashri** : It is not that you don't know of it, no one else knows it either. All these words that have been written in the scriptures, only the Gnani Purush understands them. Others just talk about them. They will say, 'I have _antaraya_ karma, I have _antaraya_ karma', but hey, what is _antaraya_? What is it? You have no knowledge, you just talk big, that is all! There are big words in the scriptures, but if you ask them, 'what does this mean? Please explain it to me in a way that a child would understand.' They will say no, they don't know that. They can only do that when they understand it themselves. Whereas, I will tell even a child, hey, why are you creating obstacles even when this much is being given? You will not get those things when you need them! That is _antaraya_ karma! That is called _vighna_ (obstacle; impediment) _karma_. We create the _vighna_ , so the _vighna_ comes to us. That is called _vighna karma_.

**Questioner** : So in such circumstances, for example if she has diabetes and she takes a lot of rice, should we become the 'Knower-Seer' and keep 'Seeing' that?

**Dadashri** : What else are you going to do? And what will happen even if you do not? Whatever she may be doing, even if she pours a whole container of _ghee_ (clarified butter) over it and eats, what has that got to do with you? You are troubled because she is eating in your presence, isn't that so? Even when You are present, believe yourself as being absent. Believe that, 'I am not here'. She would do the same, if you were not present, wouldn't she? The poison is your presence, so get rid of the poison. All the poison is from what you see.

**Questioner** : With the clarification we got today, we will find the solutions for many things. All we are doing is only _antaraya_ karma.

If we see that something is going to harm someone, then shouldn't we say 'no' to him?

**Dadashri** : Are you talking about harm that comes from eating and drinking?

**Questioner** : In eating-drinking, by eating certain things...

**Dadashri** : There is no need for you to say no. It is necessary for you to explain the facts that, 'The body is harmed by doing this and doing that'. 'Come on! You can't eat this' – you cannot take such "police activity". Explain the facts to her about the the outcome of her activity, ask her what benefit she will gain out of it.

**Questioner** : Many such circumstances arise, every step of the way.

**Dadashri** : That is what I said. This common knowledge is not out there. That is why I am telling you all to talk and discuss things so that such common knowledge (practically applicable) comes to be revealed. You happen to mention the word ' _antaraya_ ' and based on that, all these facts came out. So that is good, ask and discuss things.

**Questioner:** Now from these obstacles ( _antaraya_ ), some are positive obstacles and some are negative obstacles. If someone takes just enough food on his plate and we tell him, 'Please take some more.' If we insist and make him eat more, then is that considered an obstacle?

**Dadashri:** Then the obstacle is destroyed. If you ask him to get up while he is eating, then you bind an obstacle. If I say to people, 'It is not worth giving anything to beggars.' Then I will not be able to give anything at all (in my next life), even if I want to give. Even though you have things of your own to give away, you will not be able to give. To obstruct is called _antaraya_. If you ask someone to get up and leave while he is eating, 'Get up, why did you come here, you are from another caste!' That is a tremendous obstacle, huge! In the past people used to make people of other cast, get up and leave. I have seen all that. Have these people left anything in creating obstacles? And see how miserable they have become? An obstacle; one creates a wall (obstacle) intentionally.

##  Ego of Intellect Creates Obstacles

**Questioner** : If an ox strays into my farm and eats the crop and I drive it away, does that create _antaraya_?

**Dadashri** : It is not considered _antaraya karma_ in driving out the ox that is eating your crop. If it does not leave, you can strike it with a stick on the legs, but you should drive it off your farm. Do not strike on the belly or the head. If you need the crop, drive it off the farm, otherwise let it stay respectfully, but you will not bind _antaraya karma_. _Antaraya karma_ is a different thing, so you do not have to fear.

What does _antaraya_ mean? If someone is giving a donation, and I tell him 'At least make sure that the person you are giving to, is deserving of it. If you give without checking, you will come into bondage.' Now that poor man is about to receive something, he is unhappy and in misery, he is getting something, and this man is giving to that person, and I am using my intellect in that.

**Questioner** : This is creating _antaraya_.

**Dadashri** : No, if he was creating _antaraya_ , the man would become cautious! But he uses his intellect believing, 'I am making him understand. I am clever and intelligent and this man does not have any sense.' So if he, himself was about to gain some benefit ( _labha_ ), an obstacle will arise against it. Then he says, no matter what kind of business he does, it is not successful and it is not profitable. Hey, you have come having created _antaraya karma_ , how are you going to gain from it?

One has created obstacle karma wherever he has gone. Wouldn't people have created such obstacles? Wherever he went; this sack of intellect! He interferes when someone is giving. Hey, why do you have to worry about that? You should not be interfering in what he is giving. But the one with such interfering intellect will give advice to the other person, 'You have no sense, how can you give like this?' And so that creates obstacles. For this reason, people have obstacles. It is because he (the receiver of charity) is the Self even though he is engrossed as the self ( _prakrutimai_ ). Let the _prakruti_ be. But the one who has not created obstacles ( _antaraya_ ), he gets whatever he wishes for.

And say one has loaned ten thousand to someone. This money will come back to him whenever he has the desire. So even that which you had given will come back to you. Whenever you have the wish that 'I want to stop doing business', then all the money (owed to you) will come back to you, provided you did not create any obstacles.

And if one had created obstacles, then he will have to keep going back and forth, for up to twelve months to collect the loan. He'll go there and ask if the boss (debtor) is in, and the staff will tell him that he just left. He asks when he will be back, they tell him to return at half past three because the boss leaves at four. So he goes home, but all day long his _dhyan_ (meditation) is on the debt, even when the poor man eats. Whatever _sadhana_ (efforts necessary to achieve or accomplish something, mediation on money) one does, it will continue, won't it? It will remain in his _dhyan_ (meditation). Such _dhyan_ will not remain for women. They will go through the motion to collect a debt but when they come home, it's over. But all these men are very clever, aren't they? They are emotional. The women are in 'motion' (relatively natural). This man then leaves early to get there by three-thirty – 'it's almost three-thirty. I'll reach there in ten minutes!' So he is engrossed in that awareness. Here the secretary tells the debtor that the _sheth_ (creditor) had come to collect his money, and so he (debtor) says, 'that's fine if he came. No problem. But you told him to come back and today I am in a hurry so see if you can tell him to come tomorrow.' But here the _sheth_ had left by three-fifteen. And then you should see how frustrated and angry he becomes, 'why did I lend him the money? Why did I have to lend him money?' And if he asks 'us', 'Is it his fault?' So we would tell him, 'No, sir. It is the fault of the obstacles that you have created. You created obstacles for other people and so this fault is due to that, he is not at fault. When your obstacles come to an end, then everything will work out smoothly!'

So, because there is Atma within us, it is possible that whatever we desire to eat or drink, will come before us. But instead, it does not happen even when we make the effort. On top of that he'll fight with you one day. 'Why do you keep doing back and forth every day, is your money going to go away?' so he gets upset. And then the creditor says, 'Above all this, see how he speaks! I am the one that lent him the money and just look at the way he talks!' Alas, the fault is your very own; he is not at fault. Whatever he is telling you is your own echo. You created this project; this is that very project. Have you had such an experience?

##  One is the Owner of the Universe but...

All these are obstacles. Otherwise you are the owner of the whole universe. Then one asks, 'Why do I not experience that?' When all obstacles leave then You are the owner indeed. Who created the obstacles? Lord Mahavir? The answer is, 'No, you have created them yourself.' "You are whole and sole responsible for your life." One has created the obstacles himself. If you do not tread carefully, then how are you going to survive? Here, he says, let's set the account with minute details. This person will not be happy with the easy and carefree approach. Yes _mooah_ (mortal)! There is infinite energy, why do you need to even think about such interference? Simply 'see' it quietly the way it is going on. He will ask, 'What will I do? How will I go to the lodge if I don't have enough money for the rent?' Hey you! You cannot talk like that. Everything is ready ahead. To speak this way, is the obstacle itself. And won't it then bring him the fruit (effect)? One creates obstacle on his own. One has created obstacles for everything himself. One creates an obstacle at every word. If one speaks negatively, then an obstacle is created; obstacles are not created for positive speech.

'We' do not speak even a word. 'We' do not have any obstacles. We are in the obstacle-free state ( _nirantarai pada_ ). Everything comes readily wherever 'we' are sitting. 'We' do not think about anything, but even then it presents before 'us'. Why does this not happen for you? It's because you have created obstacles. 'I don't know this. This cannot happen for me.' So then, what will the thing say? 'You fool! If you don't know, then remain where you are. Why are you insulting me?' All these things that you see are _mishra_ _chetan_ (projection of the Self into the non-Self). This wood too, is made up of _mishra_ _chetan_. It falls under the category of _pudgal_ (non-Self complex that fills and empties). This is not _parmanu_ (subatomic particle). This is _pudgal_. If you ever create abhorrence for it, its result will come to you. If you say, 'I don't like this furniture,' then the furniture will say, 'you and I have an obstacle.' That furniture will not come to you. People have created obstacles for themselves for sure.

One has created obstacles for everything himself. One creates an obstacle with every word. If one speaks anything negative, then an obstacle is created whereas the positive will not create obstacle.

##  Obstacles in Taking Medicine or in Thinking About it?

**Questioner** : Now say I come down with some illness and I take medicines to treat that disease. I have to go through the unfolding karma ( _udayakarma_ ) that has come, so am I creating obstacle in treating the illness with medicine?

**Dadashri** : No, no. Thinking about the medicine is _antaraya_ , taking the medicine is not _antaraya_.

**Questioner** : So is it because the illness is going to be cured, that one comes across the medicine for it?

**Dadashri** : No, it may not even heal, it may even get worse. Yes, but one drinks the medicine because of the _parmanus_ (subatomic particles) that are there within and to think, 'should I take the medicine. Should I do this or that', is obstacle ( _antaraya_ ). To say allopathic doctors are not good, naturopaths are better, so and so is better – all that is obstacles.

**Questioner** : So in situations like that, should one not do any _purushartha_ (progress as the Self, or move towards the helpful) at all, and just keep 'Seeing'?

**Dadashri** : What is _purushartha_? To keep 'Seeing' is itself _Purushartha_. Remaining the 'Knower-Seer' ( _Gnata-Drashta_ ) is _Purushartha_.

**Questioner** : But, should one not go to a doctor or do anything like that to have the problem looked at?

**Dadashri** : Just 'See' what happens. It is not considered _antaraya_ if you go to a doctor to get checked out. If 'Chandubhai' (file number one) is going, ask him, 'What do you think? Do you want to go?' If he says 'yes', then You say, 'then go'. Do not create obstacles. What control do you have that it will be fine if you don't go to the doctor? How can you say something like that? The one going to the doctor is separate, You are separate – or is everything as is?

**Questioner** : So then Dada, if I remain in the _Purushartha_ of Knowing-Seeing, if I keep 'seeing' that whatever happens is correct, then the _prakruti_ (the non-Self complex) will have the full scope and whatever it has to do, it will happen.

**Dadashri** : Do not create obstacles ( _antaraya_ ) for the _prakruti_. The second you say 'do it this way' or 'do not do this'; you create obstacles there. That is called having done egoism. Why don't You just 'See' what the _prakruti_ is doing? Lord Mahavir kept 'Seeing' only one _pudgal_ , he kept Seeing His _prakruti_. When Ambalal (Dadashri) is sitting with a shawl over his shoulders, 'I' can See him sitting, and 'I' can also See him talking. 'I' can also See how his hands are moving. 'I' can See all his gestures.

##  Secret of Dada's Deafness

There was a doctor who wanted to fit me with a hearing aid. He said to me, 'Dada, have it repaired.' I told him, 'No, no dear man. I don't want to.' So then he replied, 'Dada, it will give me the opportunity to do your _seva_ (service)'. He was a good man; his intent was to give service ( _seva_ ). The doctor would benefit for treating the Gnani Purush, he would derive full benefit, because the doctor's intent is complete. So I told him, 'But you are not seeing the harm to me'. He asked, 'What harm?' I told them, 'This is the fruit of 'our' karma. 'We' have to settle it. So this time, we want to settle it completely. 'We' would not look for any other solution. For 'us' there is no such thing as looking for a cure or solution'.

So if 'we' allowed him to fit the hearing aids, then how would 'we' settle 'our' _antaraya karma_? That would be considered as pushing aside _antaraya karma_. So he asked, 'what kind of _antaraya karma_ would Dada have created?' and the answer is that, 'if this man says something or if this man says something, he (dada in his past life) would scoff at them. So he did not listen even to the truth; that is why deafness comes. Even if someone would tell me the truth, I would not listen, so tell me how much misuse of intellect had happened! One would not listen even to the facts. So what else will come if not deafness? So I explained this to the doctor and he agreed. I told him that I have to suffer it now. If someone is telling the truth, one will not listen, does he have to remain in his own world of intellect only? 'That's enough, enough, I understand, I understand, I understand', he will not even let the poor man finish what he is saying. Does that not happen? Has that ever happened to you?

**Questioner** : It does happen.

**Dadashri** : So one had not even listened to the truth of the other person. That is the cause of the obstacles ( _antaraya_ ). So God says, at least listen to the truth, why do you do so much egoism?

So that is where one's deafness comes from. Any _vishaya_ (human faculty of sensations as well as organs of activity) that has not been used properly will invite a wound and deficit for sure. Yes, if the eyes have not been put to good use, then one will have to wear glasses.

**Questioner** : Sometimes it seems that the real obstacles ( _antaraya_ ) are more of the body. All these obstacles seem to be mostly of the body.

**Dadashri** : Yes, they are more. Of course they are of the body, what else? There are not many of the mind.

##  Obstacles to Use and Repeated Use

**Questioner** : Can you please explain _bhog antaraya_ and _upbhog antaraya_.

**Dadashri** : There are obstacles ( _antarayas_ ) of _bhog_ (use, suffer pleasure) and there are obstacles of _upbhog_ (repeated use or pleasure use). What does Lord Tirthankar consider _bhog_? And what does he consider _upbhog_? Once enjoyed, it is not enjoyed again. If you finish eating this mango, the one-time enjoyment is called _bhog_. Once it is gone into the stomach, it cannot be eaten again. Will it come into your taste again?

**Questioner** : No it will not.

**Dadashri** : Is that so? That is _bhog_ , and what is _upbhog_? You can wear this shirt again, you can wear these glasses again, this body will be of use next day; so that is _upbhog_. If you can get repeated use for pleasure, that is called _upbhog_.

And these clothes, people wear them every day, so that is called _upbhog_. Men, women are all considered _upbhog_. That which is used repeatedly for pleasure is _upbhog_.

**Questioner** : You are saying the right thing, as if a _Tirthankara_ is speaking. You have made a minute demarcation.

##  Obstacle Against Benefit

**Questioner** : Now, what is _laabhantaraya_?

**Dadashri** : All the obstacles are created through _gnanantaraya_. _Laabhantaraya_ means that if you obstruct anyone from benefitting from something, you bind _laabhantaraya_ for yourself. If someone is wearing good clothes and you tell him not to waste his money on clothes, that is _upbhog antaraya_ , and if he is eating _jalebee_ and other delicacies and you tell him, 'Why do you have to eat this every day? Do you want to be bankrupt or what?' that is creating _bhog_ _antaraya_. This world has been created through creating all kinds of _antarayas_ , and then one says 'God does not give me anything'. Hey, you have created those obstacles yourself, why would God interfere in it?

##  Obstacles Against Profit and Energy

**Questioner** : What does _anantvirya_ mean? How does it happen?

**Dadashri** : Yes. That is the state of the _anantvirya_. Don't you see 'our' _Atmavirya_ (energy of the Self) the whole day? For the _Tirthankaras_ , there is an excess of certain kind; that is all. This is called _virya_ (energy, _shakti_ ). There is no other _virya_ or anything else, just _Atmavirya_ (energy of the Self). One benefits infinite profit and _labdhi_ (relative accomplishment) from it.

There is _anantbhog_ (infinite one time enjoyments), _anant upbhog_ (infinite repeated enjoyments), _anantvirya_ (infinite energy) and _anantdaan_ (infinite giving). There is all this. Now, what is _anantbhog_? The answer is that where one is not the enjoyer of any enjoyment (remains as the Self only). One would be eating only two or three things, but over a hundred different things would appear on his table. In a time where no one has ever heard of a mango, he will have mangos on his table, everything will be there. Everything will be there, without any effort, without thinking about it. What is that called? It is _anantbhog_.

**Questioner** : He uses the power of the achievement of the self ( _swa-labdhi_ ).

**Dadashri** : The one who uses _swa labdhi_ is not a _Gnani._

**Questioner** : So one dwells in the attributes of the Self. One who is constantly in the attributes of the Self, is that called _anantvirya_ (infinite energy)? Is it considered _anant_ _upbhog_ (infinite repeated enjoyment)?

**Dadashri** : That even a _Gnani_ can remain in that. _Anantvirya_ is not like that. _Anantvirya_ is such that a mere touch of his hand can do wonders. _Anantavirya_!

_Anantdaan_ , - look don't 'we' give the gift of _moksha_ every day? Many people attain _moksha_. Having attained _moksha_ (after the _Gnan Vidhi_ ) they do not move away, do they?

Then there is _anant daan labdhi_ (the result-attainment of the ability to give infinitely). If one desires it, if he has the (effect) of past _karma,_ he will give millions of rupees in donations, and if he does not have the effect of past _karma_ , he will give only four _anas_. You give according to whatever is in your past _karmic_ account; you have all the freedom, freedom of infinite giving ( _anant daan_ ). If you were noble in your past life, you would have made decision of giving millions of rupees to everyone. The one who is not noble, he will say, 'Just give eight _anas_ (fifty cents) to everyone.' Some will give only eight _anas_ , and that other person may even give a million rupees. Both have the same _shakti_ (energy) to give, but the intent of the self ( _swabhav_ ) will not let go, will it?

**Questioner** : His intent ( _swabhav_ ) will not let go, even there?

**Dadashri** : Yes. Even when it comes to suffering pleasure (enjoying- _bhog_ ) , his intent will not let go. Even when it comes to the intake of food (also used for _bhog_ ), he will say, 'I don't want to eat _karela_ (bitter gourds). That other person says that he wants to eat nothing but _karelas_. Yes, that is the intent of the self (the _prakruti,_ the non-Self complex). Then everything happens according to his desire. Enjoying ( _bhog_ ) according to desire, repeated enjoyment ( _upbhog_ ) according to desire, and giving charity ( _daan_ ) according to desire.

Then comes _laabha_ (benefit). Who benefits according to his desire? The answer is the one who has not accumulated wealth that is not rightfully his. So for whose benefit does he do things? He does so that people's work will be done. So that lifts obstacles against his own gain. When one has the inner intent ( _bhaavna_ ) that other people should get a loss, then he has the obstacle against his own profit and benefit _laabhantaraya_. Some may have both profit and loss ( _laabh-alaabha_ ). There are times he will benefit and there are times when he does not benefit. But if obstacle of benefit goes away, he will attain _anantlaabha_ (infinite benefit).

So what God says is that, when all obstacles ( _antaraya_ ) is destroyed , _anantlaabha_ (infinite benefit) happens. _Anant_ _bhog_ , _anant_ _upbhog_ and _anant_ _virya_ arises. Otherwise, what is _virya_ _antaraya_ – it's where one says, 'I am doing it, but it does not happen.' And why is that? It's because the energy of the Self _virya antaraya_ is obstructed. So one has created obstacles in one and everything. Had he the understanding, he would not have created them. But who would explain all that to him?

Then there is _anantvirya_ (infinite energy (of the Self)). _Anant_ _shakti_ (infinite energy) – no end to One's energies! Just his touch will get the work done; he will accomplish other people's work. These are good people are they not? Or are these other, good people? Who is good?

**Questioner** : The _Tirthankaras_.

**Dadashri** : They have Seen all this in their experience. They Saw it and then they spoke. Thereafter it was recorded in writing. For infinite lives, this is indeed the path that has worked. Did you like this path?

**Questioner** : Yes Dada, ofcourse I like it.

**Dadashri** : No, but what kind of talks! Those with an understanding!

##  What Destroys Antarayakarma?

**Questioner** : So all the obstacles that were arising, they all move aside with _punyanubandhi_ _punyai_ (effect of merit karma binds new merit karmas). Obstacles like _labhantaraya_ , _danantaraya_ that used to arise. One cannot eat his food, even when it is ready.

**Dadashri** : No, one will reap benefit only to the extent of the merit karma ( _punyai_ ) he comes with. They ( _antaraya_ ) do not move aside. It ( _punyai_ ) does not have the attribute of moving it aside; it has an attribute of giving the fruit.

How can one get rid of _antaraya karma_? It is by destroying the _antaraya_ karma that are there. They will go away in the face of opposition. That which has given rise to _antaraya karma,_ when Your state does not become like that (sufferer of _antarya_ ), then they will go away.

One has caused such _antaraya_ repeatedly. Obstacle means one cannot accomplish anything according to his will ( _dhaaryoo_ ). Otherwise whatever one wants will come right in front of you. Then one may ask, so one does not have to do any _purusharth_ (effort)? No; the effort is simply the desire, the desire has to arise. For 'us', on the most part, about eighty percent of the time, the second the desire arises, everything is ready. Things keep coming, even when there is no desire.

So what I am telling you is that I have given you the way to destroy all the obstacles ( _antaraya_ ). We have given you all the _Agnas,_ and that will destroy all the obstacles. Settle the obstacles with equanimity.

**Questioner:** You said that eighty percent of the time, it happens this way, what about the remaining twenty percent?

**Dadashri:** 'We' are not concerned about that twenty percent. If the desire arises and it does not come, then it comes later. Later means it comes after two or three days. But it gets settled. And with that other, the second the desire to go somewhere arises, there is someone's car waiting at the door to take me there. We do not have any cars, no such things.

**Questioner:** No, so I wanted to know that why not a hundred percent? Why did you say eighty percent?

**Dadashri:** I said, not a hundred percent because 'we' also had created some obstacles, but they are little mild. Otherwise, 'we' (the Gnani Purush) would not have as much as we do, but it is not as much as twenty percent, but there is a little. But it looks better if we say twenty percent, that way later we will not feel that we made a mistake. Instead it is better if we added some five or ten percent more. Is eighty percent anything less in the current time cycle? You get a grade of eighty percent. Have you not noticed that all my necessities come right in front of me?

**Questioner** : Yes, they will come running to you.

**Dadashri** : They all come on their own. We do not need anything from that.

##  In the Ritual Worship of Antarayakarma, one Binds Gnanantaraya

**Questioner** : There is one method they have in religion, if one's worldly life does not run properly, one is taught to conduct the ritual worship of _antarayakarma_.

**Dadashri** : People do not even understand what _antaraya_ _karma_ is; they do not even know how it is caused. One keeps on creating obstacles and keeps reciting the _vidhi_ ( of ritualized worship of _antaryakarma_ ), there is no awareness there at all. Now what benefit does one get from doing the _vidhi_? He binds _gnanantaraya_ (obstacle to _Gnan_ ).

**Questioner** : How does he create _Gnanantaraya_ by doing _vidhi_?

**Dadashri** : Yes, but where he is supposed to do _vidhi_ of _gnan_ , he does the vidhi of _agnan_ (ignorance), and therefore he created _gnanantaraya_.

Krupadudev Shrimad Rajchandra ( _Gnani Purush_ 1867-1901) had said not to do _abhinivesha_ (get entrenched in one's own opinion and intellect). Everywhere people are stuck in their own ways ( _abhinevesha_ ) and that is a state of spiritual obstinacy and ignorance ( _jada)_ ; you are not to do that. In relation to the Self, it is a _jada_ state and what is that other gnan (knowledge)? _Shushkagnan_ (knowledge that gives no results). Everything that Krupadudev cautioned people against; is exactly what is going on now. So now tell me, they are going against Krupadudev in everything they do. Therefore one by-passes Krupadudev's directives (Agna), so who is going to free him from that mistake ( _dosh_ )? Even if one does it out of ignorance, even if it is done due to misunderstanding, who can help him? They do so because they do not understand. What happens if one sticks his hand in a fire without the understanding?

**Questioner** : He will get burnt.

**Dadashri** : So do everything with the understanding. Do not do it otherwise, that is what he says. Who has put you on a pedestal that you are doing such things? Why don't you eat, drink and be merry. And when you say anything, do so with understanding.

##  Obstacles Against Life Span

Only in dying do people create lesser obstacles.

**Questioner** : In dying?

**Dadashri** : Yes, if someone is going to die, people will not say 'it is better if he goes.' He will not create that obstacle. And many people say that, 'it will be good if he lives', so they go in the opposite direction of the obstacle. So he will be saved (from creating obstacle). This is justice. The world means it is in the form of justice ( _nyaya swarupa_ ). It is your own activity and your own talk, your own understanding and that is how everything will work for you.

**Questioner** : But Dada, I have really accepted the fact that the world is just, but with such examples it is clarified even more.

**Dadashri** : It will be clarified. If one understands the detail, then it will be clarified.

**Questioner** : Dada, many times what happens is that if someone is suffering a lot of pain, another person will say that he will give up his merit karma from fasting, to the ailing man so that he may be released from his suffering. That's what they say in the villages, what is all that about?

**Dadashri** : Yes, he is a _nimit_ (instrumental as one of the evidence; apparent doer). It can happen as a _nimit_ , and it may not even happen. It is not a scientific law that this happens, that it will happen.

Look, many great men have died at a very young age. How many obstacles ( _antarays_ ) agianst life-span must they have created?

**Questioner** : How did they create them?

**Dadashri** : Just understand its opposite nature. There are many great people; they were like that (short lived). This is not so for the _tirthankars_. Lord Mahavir had a life span of seventy-two years. Life span of seventy-two years is considered complete. In this time era, life span of seventy-two years is considered complete.

It is not an auspicious life ( _shubha ayaushya_ ), but inauspicious life ( _ashubha ayaushya_ ). So the _ayushyakarma_ (life-span determining karma) breaks. If the life span is an auspicious one, then one will enjoy it.

Lord Krishna had lived nine-hundred fifty years. Still he was short by fifty years. His life span was not complete. He was shot by an arrow, wasn't he? His life span was not exactly complete, but still nine hundred and fifty is considered complete. Fifty-one hundred years ago, the life span used to be a thousand years. Since Lord Mahavir, life span has been a hundred years. Before it used to be long, now the life span and everything else is decreasing.

##  Obstacles Against Religion

Ours is a hundred percent _Darshan_ (Vision). So it is three hundred and sixty degree Vision. And today all the religions are in opposition to each other. What will people of one religion claim? They will tell you, 'if you go to the religion of the goddess mother ( _mataji_ ), you will become _mithyatvi_ (entrenched in ignorance). You cannot go into Mahadevji, otherwise you will become _mithyatvi_. Hey, you are creating obstacle ( _antaraya_ ). You are creating obstacle in _Darshan_. You cannot say that, you are creating obstacle in both, _Darshan_ and _Gnan_. You cannot talk this way. Don't go there if you do not want to. And people cannot make statements like, 'instead of going to the _derasar_ (Jain temple), it is better to be crushed by an elephant!' They are all creating obstacles. Did you understand? All these are subtle talks that you should understand.

What creates obstacles on the way to moksha? Opinions. One cannot understand even ignorance ( _agnan_ ) because of opinions, let alone knowledge ( _Gnan_ ).

If one does not get the benefit of religion, then it means that he has obstacle against religion ( _dharma_ _antaraya_ ). You have a desire to get the benefit of religion, but you cannot attain it, that is your openly evident obstacle.

**Questioner** : It's the obstacle that has come from the past, hasn't it?

**Dadashri** : No, but the old one leaves and a new one is bound. As long as one does not have _Gnan_ , by rule they will continue to be bound. When wheat is grown, and if the seeds fall on the ground, then some more wheat will grow,

##  Negative Attitude Towards Gnan Also Causes Obstacles

**Questioner** : If one does not have the _leynu_ (the credit of the _karma_ ), he cannot take _Gnan_ , is that correct?

**Dadashri** : That is not _leynu_ , but an obstacle. It is not a question of _leynu_ (that which is going to be received as an effect in this life due to merit _karma_ performed in past life). Give ( _deynu_ ) and take ( _leynu_ ) is amongst family, these are all obstacles. Therefore, for _Gnan_ , if one does not call the right path as, right, then he causes _antaraya_. These are all tools for creating obstacles. Or else negativity towards the real _Gnan_ , is all _antaraya_.

**Questioner** : But how does one know what is right or otherwise?

**Dadashri** : One may not even know that.

**Questioner** : What should one do so that he will see it as being right?

**Dadashri** : Don't others see it that way? It is like this, if a person is living in my neighborhood, he may not see this as the truth. That is his _antarayakarma_. It is not in his fortune, so he will see it wrong.

**Questioner** : So all the obstacles have been created unknowingly?

**Dadashri** : Some unknowingly, some knowingly, through the ego and the madness of the ego and intellect ( _buddhi_ ).

##  This is how Obstacles Puzzles one

If you had asked him, he would have told you, shown you, that here is the liberated One ( _mukta Purush_ )! You didn't even ask?

**Questioner:** No, no. I have talked about it many times.

**Dadashri** : But you wouldn't have believed it right away! 'Is that so? In the present time? It can't be! How can it be? How can one find the path of _moksha_?' Right now, if one finds even religion, it is more than enough! So a person does not believe that this is the path to _moksha_. But if we ask them ( _mahatma_ ), 'do you experience the bliss of freedom?' They would reply, 'yes'. So if you have faith in him you would be able to come here, and even that if the obstacles have been broken. If the obstacles are there, then even when one sits to dine, someone would come and tell him, 'uncle, get up, get up', don't they do that? If you tell him, 'wait, I'll be there in a couple of minutes', he will say, 'No, not even in two minutes.' So will obstacles spare anyone? These are all the obstacles that impede everyone.

**Questioner** : What should we do to break the obstacles?

**Dadashri** : You are asking for solution, now? But I am here now, why do we need solutions now? Now just ask for whatever you want, without much further ado. Ask so that you will never have to ask again. Ask for whatever you want, why don't you? If you want _nirvikalp_ _samadhi_ (the unaffected state of the Self, without any 'I-ness'), if you want liberation, if you want the divine Vision ( _divya chakshu_ ) – ask for whatever you want. You ask and I will give. In doing so, I am not truly the giver. I am simply instrumental in the process ( _nimit_ ). Whatever I give you; it is your own. I simply have the key. So ask now, whatever it is. If you don't want to ask right now, then ask for it two months later. I will give it to you then. Then you will have to come back here again.

**Questioner** : No, no why would I keep it pending for tomorrow?

**Dadashri** : If still there is an obstacle, the mind tells you from within, 'it will happen, what's the hurry?' This is what the mind will tell you from within. What can one do if the obstacles still exist?

When you keep having the desire to go to 'Dada's absolute _satsang'_ ; that is the beginning of the destruction of obstacles, and in going there. And when you don't have any difficulty getting there, consider the obstacles destroyed. Those obstacles will break. If you take Dada's name, the obstacles will break. If you say, 'I bow down to Dada Bhagwan', then it will break, so say that.

All that happens through grace! Yes, what cannot happen through grace? What is the value of words? People have _antarayas_ (obstacles). Is it not a wonder that despite 'cash' (instant) _moksha_ around, one is not able to attain it?

**Questioner** : One will not attain it even if it is right next to him, will he?

**Dadashri** : Those are the _antaraya_ , are they not? Did you meet me after a whole year? You must have been trying to meet me for over two years or so, right?

**Questioner** : But I did tell you that I would come. But the circumstance never arose.

**Dadashri** : No, so that itself is _antaraya_. Some people have lesser _antaraya_ , and you people have more. Because other people are wise and these people are not wise, they are over-wise. Have you ever been overwise? They will also create all kinds of objections and insistence of objections ( _vandha-vachaka_ ) because they are over-wise, won't they? A straightforward man will not create obstacles through _vandha-vachka._

One saint was saying that _Akram_ path is of useless ( _akkarmi_ ) people.

**Questioner** : He bound sin karma ( _paap_ ), did he not?

**Dadashri** : No, if it were a sin karma he created, he would have to suffer it's effect. He just created an _antaraya_. One should not speak even one sentence without considering its consequences. What happens if one does? _Antaraya_ (obstacle) against the truth will be created and it will give rise to falsehood. Or if someone is going to take _Gnan_ , he would not let it materialize, then obstacles will be created, and that is called _Gnanantaraya,_ _Darshanantaraya_.

If someone comes to _satsang_ and because of his opinion entrenched belief ( _matartha_ ), he says it is not worth going to Dada's _satsang_ ; then he will not be able to come to _satsang_ again. Some people have been thinking about coming here for the last nine years and they have not been able to do so, because they have kept creating . And that man asked you if he can come here, you said yes and did he not come immediately?

**Questioner** : Yes.

**Dadashri** : Obstacles were not created. So there is nothing if obstacles are not created. If obstacles are created, you will not be able to come here for twenty years!

##  This is how Obstacles Have Been Created Against the Path of Moksha

**Questioner** : Please explain some more about this _antaraya_. Some followers of other paths and spiritual masters that come to Dada feel, 'What's wrong with what I have attained. I have attained it!' So even though they have the opportunity to attain the ultimate truth, they are not able take it.

**Dadashri** : The fact is that, no matter what they may have found, but if they keep their minds open that 'if I come across a path of liberation, I want to take that path', then it will happen. But if they do not keep their minds open and feel 'I don't need anything else besides this', then that is _antaraya_. They put up a wall, then that wall obstructs none other than themselves. Now if one wants to break the wall down, he will have to do it himself, then the Gnani will grace him. If he tells the Gnani that he has obstacles and he wants to break them, and he decides to break them, then 'we' would grace him and the obstacles will break. However, one has created the obstacles himself.

**Questioner** : Many people do not even realize that these are their own obstacles.

**Dadashri** : They do not realize that, 'I am creating obstacles' or 'what am I doing?'

**Questioner** : They believe what they are doing is fine.

**Dadashri** : 'It is fine indeed' – that is what they believe.

**Questioner** : What is the solution there? Can something be done if that is the situation? If it is a situation where one believes, 'what I am doing is correct', then is there any other solution there?

**Dadashri** : The solution will be automatic...when his anger, pride, deceit and greed start to bite away at him, the solution will come automatically. When they bite him, he will think, 'I'll have to do something good, this cannot go on.' 'We' did not have to go out and ask all these people to come here. The 'biting' itself sends them over here. Just like the sweet potatoes that roast from all sides in a fire, people too are 'roasting' away. The inner turmoil is constantly burning. In America it is constantly burning. Whether one is in America or anywhere else, but one is constantly burning in the inner turmoil. Whether one is an ascetic or a religious teacher, they are constantly burning from within. This is because, the second he feels, 'I am a _sadhu'_ , or 'I am an _acharaya'_ , the burning starts. One alleges to be what one is not, and that is exactly how he goes about. People have been wandering for infinite lives. The Self is without a name ( _anami_ ), and yet he acquires a name and goes around wearing it with pompous pride.

**Questioner** : What should I do so that I can establish faith in such people? Suppose if one cannot attain it here because he has _antarayas_ , what can I do to make these people have faith?

**Dadashri** : For him to have faith, you have to somehow or other bring him here to me just once. I will find a way. Even a dog would come to you if you show him something and have patience. Similarly, if you speak to him gently into coming here, and then when I talk to him, he will get the solution in his mind. That is because 'our' talk is _vitaragi_ (absolutely free of attachment or abhorrence); there is no insistence that he has to do this or that. All that is relative is full of insistence. If I do not say a word, then this lady who is sitting here, will also not say a word either. She will sit right until the end. She has entanglements, doesn't she? Now, she does not like the entanglements, but her _antaraya_ _karma_ within, are such that they give rise to nothing but entanglements. So 'we' wanted to talk to her. I thought to myself, 'this poor lady has come here all the way and her trip will be wasted'; and so I made a direct connection to the _Atma_ (the Self) within her, and made the request that 'do something so that she may attain this'. 'We' make arrangements with the God within and we turn around some 'machinery' within her, and that is when this much discussion can take place. Otherwise, would she ever talk in this way? There is infinite entanglement within! Now, she is not at fault. The _antaraya karma_ causes the entanglements. Do you understand that? Do you?

Otherwise, a person would become clear the second he comes here, clear the second he steps in; here, there are no _parmanus_ of _maya_ (atoms of illusion) are there? So _maya_ stays far away from here. _Maya_ cannot come here close to the Gnani Purush. Dear lady, did you understand the issue of entanglements?

**Questioner** : Yes.

**Dadashri** : Even to give a response there is tension in the head. The speech is tense; the mind desires, 'let me talk and discuss this', but even then it ( _antaraya_ _karma_ ) will not let one speak. Yes that is called _antaraya karma_. Dear lady, did you understand _antaraya karma_? There are all kinds of _antaraya karma_ like this.

##  Intent of Compassion for the Salvation of the World

**Questioner:** This science ( _vignan_ ) does not succumb to the intellect, is that why many people don't come here?

**Dadashri** : Why do we need to bring many people here? This intent in discharge ( _bhaavna_ ) is one kind of compassion ( _karuna_ ). We do have that compassion. It is the very thing that is very needed for us. That is all; we don't have to worry about anything else that happens. It is our duty to maintain compassion; whether it happens or not, is not in our hands. It is in the hands of _vyavasthit_. It is your duty to have compassion and people will indeed come here, they will come, they will all come!

_Akram_ _Vignan_ is not found in any time era. This has come for the salvation of hundreds of thousands of people. Many people will get their work done, and too without partiality; people from all religions, the Jains, Vaishnavs, Swaminarayans, everyone.

##  Heavy Antarayas Prevent Meeting a Gnani Purush

When people go out to buy vegetables in the morning, some get fresh ones and some get rotten ones, don't they? It is because there are no _antarayas_ against fresh vegetables. Now if you go to buy wheat, there are _antarays_ , and if one wants to buy diamonds etc. how can he go? How can he go without having money in his hands? He has infinite _antarayas_. There are many _antarayas_ for these things. Here ( _satsang_ ), even if ten people were to come, it would be more than enough. There are infinite _antarayas_ to come here (Satsang with Dada). This is the highest of all things, how can everyone have such merit karma ( _punyai_ )? There are crowds of people in the market for vegetables. Are there not crowds of people? And how many are there in a jeweler's shop?

**Questioner** : Very few.

**Dadashri** : There are many _antarayakarma_. How many billionaires are there in India? And how about poor people? Most of the people are poor, aren't they? Similarly, 'this' thing ( _Gnan_ ) is not for everyone. All we can do is tell them. We can express our inner intent, that this is how it is.

There are so many obstacles to attain this. There are tremendous obstacles. These obstacles cannot be destroyed for man. Man's obstacle towards money, _labhantaraya_ can be destroyed, obstacles for donations ( _daanantaraya_ ) can be destroyed, but this obstacle towards _Gnan_ ( _Gnanantaraya_ ) and _Darshan_ ( _Darshanantaraya_ ) cannot be destroyed. These two _antaraya_ (obstacles) are very difficult to break.

That is why they do not come here, they would attain only if they come, will they not? So it is has a liability. And those who are true, they will attain it. Those who are true seekers, they will come from anywhere and come here. So, one should not rush others into this. There will not be a large of crowd for this.

That man was going down the stairs (leaving), why is that? I even tell everyone that he has come here having climbed the stairs, he came up the stairs with gusto, but he will soon be going down them. Rarely does a path of liberation comes along, that is when there are all kinds of obstacles. All this that happens; it is all correct. What is it like? Look, the man walked out. When we offered to give to him 'cash' (instant moksha), he got up and left. And that is correct too. It is not incorrect, is it? 'We' immediately realized that this correctness has come. _Antarayakarma_ have arisen. At first I thought, why did this _antarayakarma_ come? So 'we' cannot give _Gnan_ , as long as he is just sitting here, can we? If he tells me, 'This is what I want. I want to be free', then I can give. We cannot give the knowledge of liberation ( _moksha nu Gnan_ ) to the one who wants to be bound, can we?

**Questioner** : The intent to surrender ( _samarpit bhaav_ ) should arise, should it not?

**Dadashri** : So this is called _antarayakarma_. An encounter with a Gnani does not happen. When one's merit karma ( _punyai_ ) of infinite past lives comes into fruition; that is when one gets to do _darshan_ of Dada. Now tell me, a ready morsel of moksha is there, everyone else will alert him about this too. The other morsels, one will get or may not, but this morsel of moksha! The Gnani Purush will not be seen again.

**Questioner** : Even after infinite lives, one will not meet a Gnani.

**Dadashri** : Even in hundreds of thousands of years, there is no _Akram_ _Gnan_. One can place absolute faith in it. Everything becomes ready within, as per our word. And if you say, 'Dada says this every day, does he not? He says the same thing every day, and Dada is like family to us!' This way one looses out.

Some people's obstacles ( _antaraya_ ) of direct meeting (with a living Gnani Purush) have been destroyed and for some, obstacles of indirect ( _paroksha_ ) meeting are destroyed. The ones whose indirect obstacle are broken; have obstacles for direct ( _pratyaksha_ ) meeting for ever, so he only receives indirect ( _paroksha_ ) meetings. Obstacles of direct ( _pratyaksha_ ) meeting are huge, which I have seen. Our effort goes to waste; his effort goes to waste too. You will get tired of 'writing letters' (of invitations).

**Questioner** : Why did such a huge obstacle arise, even to just meet you? You know that I have known of you for such a long time.

**Dadashri** : Everyone has obstacles. Those who 'know' (Dada) will have obstacles. Those who do not 'know' will not have obstacles. The one who knows will have obstacles. The minute one says, 'he is like this or like that', an obstacle is created. Even if you speak based on someone else's comments; the obstacles are created. Obstacle of knowing ( _jaankaar_ ). Not of not knowing. There is no acquaintance between the one who does not know and 'I' and so there are no obstacles, are there? So are there any problems there?

Whether something is right or wrong, if there are five people to criticize ( _tika_ ), then you will do the same. It is not that there is a discipline or goal. That is not so. You will sway this way and you will sway that way too. Therefore all kinds of obstacles have happened.

Those who have determination ( _nischaya_ ), obstacles get destroyed there. They will break after a long time. One man tells me I have wanted to meet you for six years; today I have met you. So how many obstacles did he have? Tell me! And those from the foreign countries will think only once and get to meet me. They think of someone only once and they get to meet him. They do not have obstacle and they are not over-wise either, are they? Is it more valuable to be wise or over-wise?

**Questioner** : Wisdom is more valuable. Over-wiseness will ruin things for one. For me, the day I got _Gnan_ I felt that I met _pratyaksha_ Gnani.

**Dadashri** : Direct ( _pratyaksha_ ) meeting with the Gnani, but you met God. You actually met _pratyaksha_ _Paramatma_ (direct meeting with absolute Self). The one Krupadudev has called the Absolute Self in the physical body ( _dehadhari_ _parmatma_ ).

##  Pratikraman for Obstacles

**Questioner** : I have too many obstacles. I fall asleep while reading.

**Dadashri** : Everyone has brought all the _antaryakarma_. But you should do pratikraman of them every day, that 'Dear Lord, please remove my obstacles. I do not wish them anymore. I may have erred in the past, which is why these obstacles are here. But I do not want to make any mistakes anymore.' Pray to the Lord everyday like that.

##  Obstacles to Gnan-Darshan Arise Thus

**Questioner:** What causes _Gnan antraya_ and _Darshan antraya_ (obstacles against Knowledge as the Self and Vision as the Self)?

**Dadashri:** One will talk negative in every matter. One may not understand the knowledge the saints and priests give in their sermons, and then he will start to talk negatively; that is the way one creates _Darshan-antaraya_ and _Gnan-antaraya_. One should not speak like that. He may be any kind of _acharya_ or _maharaj—_ religious head, he speaks according to his knowledge and understanding but one cannot speak wrong or negatively about him. That verily causes obstacles against one's Vision ( _Darshan antaraya_ ) and obstacles against the Knowledge of the Self ( _Gnan antraya_ ). Over there, the obstacles one creates are way less than one would create here (in the _satsang_ in the presence of the _Gnani Purush_ ); here grave obstacles would be created. He will have to wander for many _chorashi_ (one _chorashi_ is 84 lakh births).

The Gnani Purush is a _mokshadata_ —the one who grants final liberation, He has come to give the gift of _moksha_. Not _Gnan_ but the gift of _moksha_ , so would any obstacle remain if the one who is the giver of the _Gnan_ and the one who wants to take the _Gnan_ , come together? Would any kind of obstacle remain?

It does not take long if the _antaraya karma_ is broken. How far apart is _Atma_ \- the Self and _moksha_? Not at all; the obstacles that lie in between the two is the distance between them.

**Questioner:** How can one destroy _Gnan antraya_ and _Darshan antraya_?

**Dadashri:** The Gnani Purush can destroy them for you. The Gnani Purush destroys the ignorance (of the Self) and he can also remove obstacles for you. But there are certain obstacles that even the Gnani Purush cannot remove. Those obstacles are beyond the power of the Gnani; where humility ( _vinaya_ ) is being violated. Humility is the basis for the path to _moksha_. _Param_ _vinaya_ absolute humility! There should not be even a single negative thought, a single wrong imagination about the Gnani Purush. What can a single wrong imagination do? One does not get a single wrong thought and imagination for his own mother, then what about for the Gnani Purush? Rather, it is better to remain less in touch with the Gnani Purush. If one does not remain close to the Gnani Purush, he will not have any thoughts about him, would he?

##  Obstacles Against Expression in Conduct

**Questioner** : Many things come into _darshan_ (vision), but do not manifest into conduct ( _vartan_ ).

**Dadashri** : It will come into _darshan_. Some people have greater _darshan_ , but they have heavy obstacles against it manifesting into conduct. However their _darshan_ (understanding) is very high, they have not left anything that needs to be understood.

**Questioner** : So, is that a weakness in power of the mind ( _manobud_ ) or is it just an obstacle ( _antaraya_ )?

**Dadashri** : One has created strong obstacles. The entanglements have been solved through _darshan_.

##  Gnan is Attained, if Obstacle is Destroyed

**Questioner** : But Dada many times obstacles are necessary in order to attain the _Gnan_. We are tested only when there are obstacles.

**Dadashri** : Yes, we are tested where our karmic account is, where we have made mistakes. This is all an effect of all the mistakes made, is it not? The effects of the obstacles caused, have come forth. Obstacles against attaining _Gnan_ are created, so one does not attain _Gnan_ , does he?

There is a need to attain _Gnan_ , we want to 'dine', it is necessary to 'dine', so what can we do when one creates obstacles? And we do get hungry, don't we? So, it can only be attained if there are no obstacles.

##  Cannot Destroy Idols or Pictures

Some people will take our books for free and then they turn around and sell them. Or if one is an angry man, he will say to his wife, 'what are these books of Dada doing here? I told you not to bring them.' So he would take them and burn them. He creates such a tremendous _antarayakarma_ in doing so that even after thousands of life times, he will not attain liberation. And when _Gnanantaraya_ is created, _Darshanantaraya_ is created without fail. So these will always be together. With _Gnanantaraya_ , all the eight ( _dravyakarma_ ) are created.

**Questioner** : Along with _Gnan antaraya_?

**Dadashri** : Yes, only one _antaraya_ karma is created and with _Gnanantaraya_ , all eight will be created. So by selling the books, burning them, the poor man does not know what can happen when he is filled with anger. He does not know that, does he? You cannot burn anyone's photo. It is tantamount to killing him. Yes, many people are over come with anger and they burn photos. You cannot do that; it is an establishment of faith ( _sthapana_ ).

_Sthapana_ (establishment of faith) is together with a name. It may not be living; there is no _dravyabhaav_ (physical presence) there, but it has the name established ( _naam_ _sthapana_ ) to it, doesn't it? You cannot do anything to even an idol of God. People will ask why nothing happens to the Muslims (who destroy idols). They are bound to receive the fruit too, are they not? The idol ( _murti_ ) will never do anything, but the protecting celestials ( _shashan_ _devas_ ) will. One will receive result of hurting others, by doing it. If you burn a Muslims _masjid_ (mosque), many Muslims will be hurt, the fruit of which you will definitely have to suffer. You will never become (truly) happy by hurting anyone. Therefore give as much happiness as you can. If you cannot do that, you cannot hurt anyone at all, and hurt is caused through lack of understanding. People think that they are not hurting anyone; that is what they tell me. They feel, 'You should not do anything wrong like that, you should not hurt anyone. 'I ask, 'What do you understand? You hurt people all day long. So then what is it that you understand?' He is talking in his own language (by his own intellectual view). You should listen to my language. You keep hurting people all day long. Only the Gnani's language is certified language. There is nothing left to think or know beyond that. Sooner or later you will have to know that, will you not?

##  Nischaya Breaks the Threads of Obstacles

All obstacles ( _antaraya_ ) break for the one who attains this _Gnan_. What I am telling you is that here 'we' have given you a path that will help you break all obstacles. I have given you this _Gnan_ , and along with that I have give you all these the Five _Agnas_ , and so it is possible to break all obstacles.

**Questioner** : Dada, when the determination ( _nischaya_ ) is made that I want to go to _satsang_ without fail, then everything works out to my convenience.

**Dadashri** : The _nischaya_ (determination in the relative, and the Self in the real) itself will break all obstacles and remove all traces of them. Only the _nischaya_ is needed. As long as one does not make a _nischaya_ (firm determination), the obstacles keep peeping up their heads. Right now there is a lot of traffic on the road, but if the Prime Minster were to come out, all the traffic would clear out. It would all automatically clear out within an hour. This is like that. Is 'our' status here (in _Akram_ _Vignan_ ), that of the Prime Minister? This status is that of the absolute Self ( _Paramatma pada_ ). The status that You have been given after taking this _Gnan_ is the _Paramatma pada_. It does not matter that you are not able to maintain oneness with that state ( _pada_ ); it is because there is weakness on your part to adjust to it (the Self). However, it is a _Paarmatma_ _pada_ – the state of the absolute Self.

' _Antar chhootey tya khule chhe antar ankhadi re lol_ '

The inner vision that has opened up for us, the divine vision ( _divyachakshu_ ) – _antar_ _chhootey_ means the divine vision unfolds day by day. It means that as the _Gnanantaraya_ and all other _antaraya_ begin to break, the divine vision opens up. These obstacles ( _antaraya_ ) that have been created; have been created due to all the _karma_ , haven't they?

As the obstacle is destroyed, everything opens up. It (the Self) is aloof from you because of the _antaraya_. Otherwise You are not separate from the Self (Atma). It is separate because of this obstacle. Otherwise the Self and you are not separate. Only the _antarayakarma_ creates the problem. Now everything has been attained. Why does it still not give you the benefit like you want to, in spite of attaining it? It is because of _antaray-karma_. As the _antaraya_ goes away, you will have the solution.

##  Obstacles Against Satsang

**Questioner** : When Dada's _satsang_ is going on, one is not able to come because he has created obstacles, how are these _antaraya_ created?

**Dadashri** : It is not an obstacle that one is not able to come. It is the effect of the obstacle. It is the effect of the obstacles created in the past. He has no choice but suffer it.

**Questioner** : How was that obstacle created?

**Dadashri** : One created it himself. By saying, 'Why do we have to go there every day? What's wrong if we don't go for two days?' That created this entire obstacle.

**Questioner** : If one is coming to Dada's _satsang_ and someone tells him, 'Why do you go there every day to listen to the same thing?' So then will he not create an obstacle?

**Dadashri** : Yes, that other man is creating an obstacle. This obstruction is an obstacle ( _antaraya_ ). Why don't you talk straight so that even a small child understands? However many obstacles you have created, only that many are your obstacles.

##  Desire has Obstructed the Relative Expression of Energies of the absolute Self

**Questioner:** When one has an intense desire for something, pain arises because one is not able to get it.

**Dadashri:** When there is a great desire for something, you will get it for sure, but because there is intense desire, it will be delayed. And when the desire decreases, it will come quicker. On the contrary, desire ( _ichchha_ ) creates obstacle.

**Questioner:** Will we not get the very thing we intensely desire?

**Dadashri:** You will get it. You will get it, when the desire for it decreases; then you will get it. You will definitely get the thing you desire. Obstacles only arise because of desire. Obstacles start breaking as the desire decreases. Thereafter, all things are available to you. When something is about to happen, the desire for it will arise beforehand. Once the obstacles shatter, you get everything according to your desire. Why do 'we' (Dada) not have any obstruction? This is because 'our' state is completely _nirichhak_ _pada_ —a desire-free state.

A human being is indeed a _Paramatma_ – absolute Self. There is the potential for the expression of infinite _aishwarya_ (the relative expression of energies of the absolute Self). The second one desires anything, he becomes a human being! Otherwise the Self can attain whatever it wants. One is not able to attain because of obstacles. Your divine energy ( _bhagwat shakti, aishwarya_ ) is covered up by whatever obstacles you create. _Bhagwat shakti_ means whatever one desires it will come in front of him. As many obstacles are created, that much energy gets veiled.

'We—the Gnani' do not have anything like desire at all. There are two kinds of desires: one is discharge desire and one is charge desire. Charge desire binds a new account of karma. An example of discharge desire is say a person is hungry and he looks for food in a certain manner, we can tell that this man has a desire to eat something. But this is called discharge desire. For 'us' when such discharge desire arises, even before 'we' say anything, food is served to us readily. We do not have to make any effort. So many obstacles have been broken that 'we' get everything the second a desire arises. This is called _nirantaraya_ obstacle-free state.

##  Obstacles due to no Determination; no Obstacles due to Determination

In the path of moksha, as obstacles arise, one's energies manifest more. Therefore, even when obstacles come on the way, be firm in your _nischaya_ (determination) that no one has the power to block you. You have to maintain such an inner intent ( _bhaav_ ). You do not have to say it out loud in words, saying it out loud is ego. Obstacles are created because of the ego of, 'I am something'.

**Questioner** : Do obstacles ( _antaraya_ ) get destroyed on their own, or are they destroyed through _purushartha_?

**Dadashri** : _Antaraya_ (obstacle) means _anischaya_ (lack of _nischaya_ ). Where is man's _purushartha_? _Purushartha dharma_ (religion of progress as the Self) is open.

**Questioner** : Is _nischaya the_ _purushartha_?

**Dadashri** : Yes, _nischaya_ that I want to do it only this way.

**Questioner** : But, not everyone's _nischaya_ materializes.

**Dadashri** : You are not to see whether it materializes or not, you just have to make the _nischaya_. And if you keep it slack, then so will be the results. Your own lack of determination ( _anischaya_ ) is your _antaraya_. _Antaraya_ is broken when you do _nischaya_. When _nischaya_ of the Self is made, all the obstacles do indeed get destroyed, do they not?

##  Difference between Nischaya and Desire

**Questioner** : You have said in one of the Aptavanis that _antaraya_ (obstacle) can be destroyed through will power, and on the other side we know that obstacle is caused by desire ( _ichchha_ ).

**Dadashri** : It is not necessary to do desire. You have been asked to make a _nischaya_ (determination). _Nischaya_ will destroy any kind of obstacle, for sure.

**Questioner** : If we have a strong desire ( _ichchha_ ) for something, we make a _nischaya_ that I want to acquire a certain thing; then this desire ( _ichchha_ ) causes an obstacle, so should we not do that?

**Dadashri** : You need _nischaya_ , where is the question of _ichchha_ (desire) here?

**Questioner** : Please explain the difference between _nischaya_ and _ichchha_?

**Dadashri** : There is a lot of difference. _Ichchha_ (desire) is something of your liking, and _nischaya_ is exactness. _Unichchha_ (lack of desire) is something that is not liked, and _ichchha_ is something of your liking. And _nischaya_ means that you made a determination.

**Questioner** : Please explain _nischaya_ and _ichchha_ with examples?

**Dadashri** : What examples? If you like something, to go get some bananas, you have to make a desire _ichchha_. If you want to do any work you have to do make a decision _nischaya_. How fast will one walk to go and get something he does not desire ( _anichchha_ )?

**Questioner** : He will sit down.

**Dadashri** : And how about for something he desires?

**Questioner** : He will run.

**Dadashri** : And _nischaya_ is beyond the two.

**Questioner** : Is that why, Dada you tell us to do _nischaya_ of following the five Agnas?

**Dadashri** : Yes, that is it. You have to do _nischaya_. And it will automatically be followed. Your _nischaya_ is needed. If you slack off, then it too will become slack. If you say that you want to go to Dada, no matter what obstacles there are, then they will get destroyed if you do the _nischaya_. And if you say, 'It is _vyavasthit_ , is it not?' then it will be ruined.

**Questioner** : Yes, I have experienced that.

**Dadashri** : One cannot use _vyavasthit_ like this. If it is _vyavasthit_ , then why don't you drive cars with your eyes closed? Then your view is correct. What is the problem if you drive a car on the road with your eyes closed? It is _vyavasthit_ , is it not?

**Questioner** : Then an accident will happen.

**Dadashri** : So will an 'accident' not happen in this too? You can say _vyavasthit_ only after an accident happens even when you were driving with care, with open eyes. One has to understand this, does he not? Can he say it without understanding?

**Questioner** : This is applicable to everything that if there is power of _nischaya_ , then obstacles will definitely be destroyed.

**Dadashri** : Yes, strength of _nischaya_ will take one to _moksha_. And it is because of _anischaya_ (lack of determination) that everything has become stuck.

**Questioner** : Is _anischaya_ (lack of firm determination) and _anirnaya_ (indecision) the same thing?

**Dadashri** : The same; but there is greater power in _anischaya_.

**Questioner** : So it is like 'to be or not to be'. It gives rise only to uncertainty.

**Dadashri** : There will not be any substance to it if uncertainty ( _dwida_ ) arises. If one makes a _nischaya_ (determination) that I definitely want to go there in the morning, then know that he is going.

**Questioner** : So is it not considered ego (I am doing) to do such _nischaya_?

**Dadashri** : There is no ego left at all, so where is the question of doing the ego? And whatever ego there is, it is a discharge ego. So, when ego is not there with You (the Self), then how is it going to be used?

**Questioner** : Is _nischaya_ mandatory?

**Dadashri** : No; not mandatory. Mandatory is all different, separate. _Nischaya_ means something that takes you towards your goal ( _dhyeya_ ).

##  Have Obstacles to Eating Ever Occurred?

**Questioner** : If someone goes with a determination ( _nischaya_ ) to do _satsang_ but the _satsang_ does not happen, then what benefit will he attain? Does he attain the same benefit as the _satsang_ happening; or is it less or more?

**Dadashri** : He only receives the fruit for his intent ( _bhaav_ ). If someone tells you, 'Here, eat this', even then you get the 'fruit'.

**Questioner** : Ordinarily, if one goes with _nischaya_ , then there is no obstacle at all.

**Dadashri** : Most likely not. Yes, that does happen sometimes.That is not always the case. There is no one to stop you at all if you have the _nischaya_. There is no need to be indecisive. If there is a slippery slope for a mile, and you think, 'What if I slip?' then there is no solution to that. 'I will not slip, how can I slip?' - then such will be the arrangement that will be made; the legs, mind and everything will all be careful. And with inner feeling, 'I will slip', then the mind will become weak with, 'How will I go?' Do such a nischaya, 'No way, I will not slip.' With that everything is clear. Thereafter, if you still slip, then it is _vyavasthit_.

**Questioner** : So does _nischaya_ have the power to destroy obstacles?

**Dadashri** : It can destroy all obstacles. It will not leave even one obstacle alone.

**Questioner** : So if obstacles hinder us, is that a deficiency in the _nischaya_?

**Dadashri** : It is deficiency in the _nischaya_ only.

**Questioner** : So it is one's own deficiency and yet he blames the obstacle.

**Dadashri** : There is no one else; they are all self created obstacles. Those created by you, can be removed through _nischaya_. Why aren't obstacles ever created for eating? Do you let _antaraya_ happen in that? These obstacles are all created deliberately. Had they been created on their own; then you would have had obstacles in getting tea and everything. None are created on their own.

People are very shrewd, are they not? That shrewdness itself has killed them. It would have been good if one were not shrewd (misusing intellect).

**Questioner** : They are not shrewd. One believes he is shrewd.

**Dadashri** : One has believed himself to be so. One thinks he is independent.

##  Gnani is in Antaraya-free State

The true meaning of _antaraya_ will not be found even in the scriptures, even if one tried to look for it. Those with the experience (of the absolute Self) did not write everything down in the scriptures. The main _Atma_ (Self) does not have any _antaraya_ (obstacle). All its necessities are met with, just while sitting at home. It does not have any _antaraya_ at all, does it? And if there are any, 'you' (self) have created them through your _buddhi_ (intellect). They are an exhibition of the _buddhi_.

One man was asking, 'Dada, how wonderful your circumstances like, and our circumstances.... when you come down and if someone knows that you are coming, there is someone ready with a chair for you. You do not have any difficulty getting anything. No obstacles.' If someday 'We' get the desire to eat, mind you on the most part, 'we' do not have any desires, but if 'we' ever do, then there will not be any obstacle. People are ready with food, wandering what 'we' will eat. So there is no obstacle, is there? The main _Atma_ (Self) does not have any obstacle at all, does it? Whatever the wish, will all happen immediately.

So which _antaraya_ occurred? They arise because of _Darshanavaran_ (Vision veiling) and _Gnanavaran_ (Knowledge veiling). Four categories ( _Darshanavaran, Gnanavaran, Mohaniya, Antaraya_ ) arise through through _moha_ (illusion that prevents the knowledge of the Self). Therefore 'one' is the _Paramatma_ as the Self. Everything that comes into the thought is attainable. But when it cannot be attained, what _antarayas_ have been created? The answer is that _moha_ creates the blockades. _Antarayakarma_ ; _vighnakarma_ arise because of lack of awareness of the Self.

##  That is how the Energies of the Self Manifest

The energies of the Self are called _Atmavirya_. In one in whom _Atmavirya_ is lacking _,_ weakness will arise, anger-pride-deceit-greed will arise. _Atmavirya,_ the energy of the Self dissipates due to ego. _Atmavirya_ rises as the ego dissolves. When you feel that _Atmavirya_ is decreasing, then you should speak out loud, twenty-five times, 'I am full of infinite energy.' Then the energy will arise. There are infinite obstructions in the path of _moksha_ therefore against them, there is infinite energy.

The worldly life ( _sansar_ ) arose due to the energy going in wrong direction. Now there is so much right energy (that which is of the Self), that it can destroy all obstacles. That is the only reason that 'we' make you say the sentence, 'In the path of _moksha_ because there are obstructions of countless varieties, against them I am full of infinite energy.' All the obstacles can be broken by staying in the state of _Gnata_ - _Drashta_ —Knower-Seer. Otherwise _moksha_ is right here, it is lying verily with You. Is _moksha_ that far? It is just that obstructions have happened in the middle.

**Questioner** : The Self has infinite energy. What has caused obstacles against it?

**Dadashri** : You (self) are the one creating the _antarayas_ ; no one else interferes in that.

**Questioner** : But through which process are obstacles created over the Self?

**Dadashri** : It is through all the wrong beliefs. Is there only one kind of wrong belief? 'I am fat' is also wrong belief. 'I am slim' is also wrong belief. 'I am tall. I am dark. I am white', how many such wrong beliefs? There are as many wrong beliefs as there are words. Yes! There are that many wrong beliefs. When one goes beyond that, the right belief arises.

What causes the veiling over the Knowing energy of the Self ( _Chaitanya Shakti_ )? I want this and I want that. One sees the things that other people want and learned from that knowledge and wants the same for himself. 'I can't do without this...I can't do without spinach...' And in doing this, one became entrapped. The Self is full of infinite energy. One kept throwing stones on it.

It is like this. This gutter is flowing; there is tremendous energy there for the water to run through it. The gutter is good too, but if someone throws a stone in the gutter, then you wander why the water is not flowing smoothly. That is called _antaraya_ (obstacle) that has been created. If the stones are thrown in two places, then it will slow down the flow even more. If it is thrown in three places, the flow will be impeded even more. If even more are thrown in, then it will stop the water completely from flowing. And the Gnani Purush remains in the state free of obstacles ( _nirantaraya pada_ ). No _antarayas_ at all. All your _antarayas_ go away by sitting with him, merely by sitting with him. Even if you are making small talk with him!

*****

#  [2.6]

#  Vedaniyakarma

##  Pain-pleasure experience

How many so far?

**Questioner** : Four.

**Dadashri** : In a candle in the form of _dravyakarma_ , there are four _avarans_ (veils) in every living being, not in just one being.

And the fifth is _vedaniya_. Even if it is not your wish, suddenly cold weather comes and you shiver, but you have to suffer it. And if someone drops hot coal on you, you have to suffer _vedaniya_ (pleasure-pain karma), because you get burnt. People are suffering this _vedaniya_ in a hospital. Have you seen _vedaniya_ of people?

**Questioner** : Yes.

**Dadashri** : How much? Is there only one kind or many kinds?

**Questioner** : There are of many kinds.

**Dadashri** : Many kinds, and at some places some people are suffering ( _bhogavey_ ) _shata vedaniya_ (pleasure karma). Whereas that which gives pain, is _ashata_ _vedaniya_ (pain karma). Say there isn't any kind of pain in the body, and one eats mango pulp and goes to sleep. What is the person in? He is in _shata vedaniya_ (pleasure karma). Right now, the mango has not become disagreeable, so he is in pleasure. As soon as it becomes disagreeable, he will immediately say, 'I have gas here'. But until then he is suffering the _shata vedaniya_ (pleasure karma), he has brought that in his account of karma. So, one comes with both, _shata vedaniya_ and _ashata vedaniya_ (pleasure karma and pain karma). Sometimes _shata_ (pleasure) is short lived, and then comes _ashata_ (pain). This is how _shata_ - _ashata_ (pleasure-pain) continues all day long. When someone curses, _ashata vedaniya_ pain is suffered, and when someone showers flowers on you later, you suffer _shata vedaniya_ pleasure karma. Due to the body that has been received, if becomes hot outside, it becomes intolerable. He will start the fan and _shata vedaniya_ pleasure will follow. And when one starts a fan on a cold day and he gets cold, he cannot tolerate it, and that is _ashata vedaniya_ (pain karma). Did you understand _ashata vedaniya_? In no time, you will dicomfort.

When one's teeth hurt, _ashata vedaniya_ (pain karma) has arises. Ask him, 'Why do you have a face like that today?' He will say, 'I have a toothache'. He will try anything to relieve the pain. If nothing, then he will numb it by putting oil of clove on the tooth. By numbing it, there will be pain signals ( _vedana_ ) within, but he will not notice it. Otherwise you will not be able to tolerate the pain, will you?

Whatever suffering of pain-pleasure ( _vedana_ ) your body has to suffer, that is, your _dravyakarma_. _Vedana_ (pleasure-pain signals) can be of pleasure or it can be of pain, it may be bitter or it may be sweet, but at all arises from _dravyakarma_.

##  Interval Between two Pains is Pleasure

**Questioner** : Yes, the _vedaniya_ that you mentioned. I want some explanation.

**Dadashri** : The whole world is in two kinds of _vedaniya_. Some times it is in _shata vedaniya_ (pleasure karma effect) and some times in _ashata vedaniya_ (pain karma effect). If everything is normal in your dinner plate, there will _shata_ (pleasure), but if the vegetables are heavily spiced, there will be _ashata_ (pain).

**Questioner** : Even _shata_ is considered _vedaniya_ (here, it means suffering as pain)?

**Dadashri** : _Shata_ is _vedaniya_ , is it not? What people consider pleasure ( _sukha_ ) or and what they consider as pain ( _dukha_ ), the Lord calls it _vedaniya_. It is just an effect. It is a kind of _vedana_ (an effective signal).

**Questioner** : We believe that when pain decreases, it is pleasure. I am confused because you are saying pleasure is a _vedana_ (here it means suffering of pain).

**Dadashri** : Reduction in pain is not pleasure. People consider the interval between two pains as pleasure. The period between two pains, when one pain comes to an end and the other one has not started yet; that is considered pleasure. Write these words down. Where does an interval happen? In a _natak_ (that which does not last; a play). So it is not real pleasure. It is _vedana_ (pain-pleasure effect signal).

**Questioner** : So then what is considered real pleasure?

**Dadashri** : Real pleasure is _anand_ (bliss), when the bliss of the Self happens.

The reason it is called _vedana_ because whatever thing gave rise to pleasure, is the very thing that becomes the source of pain when it becomes abnormal. If you are suffering pleasure with the _doodhpaak_ (milk pudding) now, what happens when you eat too much of it?

**Questioner** : Yes, it will cause pain.

**Dadashri** : Therefore all that becomes abnormal is considered _vedaniya_. And anything that is not abnormal, it is called _sukha_ (bliss here). Therefore, eternal bliss of the Self ( _sanatan sukha_ ) never leaves; it does not leave under any circumstance. Absolute bliss ( _paramanand_ ) is constant. Have you tasted natural bliss of the Self, in any life time? Should you not taste it?

**Questioner** : But Gnanis do not think of pain ( _dukha_ ) as _ashata_.

**Dadashri** : They will not beleive that _ashata_ is painful, will they? They do not believe _shata_ as pleasure ( _sukha_ ), therefore they will not believe _ashata_ as pain ( _dukha_ ). But those who believe of _shata_ as pleasure; will for sure have to believe _ashata_ as pain even if they do not want to, that is mandatory. But those Gnanis (of the kramik path) renounce pleasure in _shata_.

_Vedaniya_ _karma_ gives _shata_ (pleasure) as well as _ashata_ (pain) within. So karma do everything. 'You' do not have to do anything.

##  Do not Suffer, Know

**Questioner:** Dada, this _Gnanavaran_ (knowledge veiling _karma_ ), _Darshanavaran_ (vision veiling _karma_ ), _mohaniya_ (illusion producing _karma_ ) and _antaraya_ (obstacle producing karma), can be settled with sooner through _chintavan_ (studied visualization), is that not so? Whereas _shata_ - _ashata_ _vedaniya_ ( _karma_ of pleasure-pain) and those _naamrupa_ ( _karma_ of name and physical attributes) – _gotra_ ( _karma_ of heritage and status) – _ayushya_ ( _karma_ of life span), do they not have to be suffered without any choice?

**Dadashri:** It is not that they have to be suffered without choice, even in that, if the _Gnan_ is solid, then one does not suffer ( _bhogavey_ ) them. _Tirthankaras_ never suffer them. They have _shata_ - _ashata_ _vedaniya_ , they do not suffer them, they only Know.

But what is this _Gnan_ like? What 'You' say, 'it is hardly anything, it has no value', because You only Knew that. But when you say, 'I cannot bear this', then pain will result for you. Lots of small pains, you get rid of them by just Knowing them; you do not become the sufferer ( _bhokta_ ) of them at all. And whatever pains you address as, 'this pain has come to me', then it comes to you on its own the second you say it. You say, 'I am aware of it, I am done Knowing it ( _mei jaanyoon_ ). The second the word 'Know' is used, it becomes light. Thereafter the (Knower) keeps kKnowing only.

##  There is Beliefvedana, not Gnanvedana

**Questioner** : Now when my head hurts, at that time who knows it and who is the one suffering ( _vedan, vedavoo, bhogavavoo_ ) the headache.

**Dadashri** : Ego is suffering ( _vedan_ ) the pain. The sufferer is the ego. It is your head, so your ego is suffering it. And when one eats a cheesecake, even that is suffered ( _vedey_ ) by the ego. Both, _shata_ (pleasure) and _ashata_ , (pain) are suffered by ego.

**Questioner** : Does the Self not suffer ( _vedavoo_ )?

**Dadashri** : This does not touch the Self at all.

**Questioner** : But we do experience the pain signal ( _vedana_ ).

**Dadashri** : That experience is of the ego, is it not! This is a _beliefvedana_ (suffering in belief only), it is not _Gnanvedana_ (suffering of the Self). Otherwise, you will not be able to sleep at all if it is _Gnanvedana_ (suffering of the Knower). You will not be able to sleep for nights and days at all. This is a _beliefvedana_ so you will be able to fall asleep. This is just a wrong belief. Ego is the sufferer.

**Questioner** : What is _vedana_ based on?

**Dadashri** : It is the fruit of the _vedana_ (pleasure and pain) you give to others. Hold surely in your beief that any _vedana_ you give to others will come back to you. The Lord had discovered this fact. So he avoided doing this because he knew that this was a very wrong way. Thus he became completely pure.

##  Dada's Close Observation Within

I used to take a bath in the morning. I used pour hot water on my back. What happens if you put extra hot water on a place where it itches?

**Questioner** : It will feel good.

**Dadashri** : It feels good. Then I Saw ( _joyoon_ ). I said, 'What is this still remaining?' When you pour hot water on, that place is filled with _parmanus_ (subatomic particles) of itch- of air ( _vayu, vatta_ ). When that _vayu_ shows its force, it itches. People say that it is a kind of rheumatism. These dogs do this (scratch) whole daylong, that is how that feels. All our bodies are the same. It feels good when you pour hot water on it. So I said, this is not a fault. I investigated, who feels this sweetness. Is was the ego who felt it sweet. Who was feeling the sweetness?

**Questioner** : The ego was feeling that.

**Dadashri** : Yes. 'I' Knew that 'ego' is feeling this. So why did this feel sweet? I investigated the root cause, how it came about? When it is very cold, one starts shivering. What people call a shiver, it is the air going in. that air is being released when it becomes ready to express. So one suffers shivering due to cold, at that time ego is suffering it, and as a fruit of it this ego believes it to be pleasure when hot water is poured. Therefore, so this is not a fault. What am I trying to say? The Self is the Knower of both, it does not suffer ( _bhagavavoo_ ) at all. Agnani (ignorant of the Self) suffers. When he says, 'I liked the taste of it, I indeed am Chandubhai, am I not?' will he then suffer it or not? Thus he binds karma. He binds karma (charges karma) and he discharges this karma. Have you not poured warm on your self?

**Questioner** : When I take a bath. I do not notice that because my chit is roaming all over while I am taking the bath.

**Dadashri** : Wow! It has gone out to roam! Our chit, even now, is present at every second. All the analysis is going on within. Only then we can give, right? It should be the 'medicine' of the Self, should it not? The medicine that worked from my experience, it will help you; otherwise it will not.

##  Lord Mahavit Also had Ashata Vedaniya

Lord Mahavir had _shata_ and _ashata vedaniya_. A cow owner forced spikes in his ears. He did not stick a long nail but he forced wooden spikes in his ears. How much pain ( _ashata vedaniya_ ) must it be giving him? Lord is also a _vedak_ (sufferer).

**Questioner:** Is Lord a _vedak_ , or is it his body that is _vedak_ , Dada?

**Dadashri:** Lord too is _vedak_. What the doctors define as a body, the part that doctors can see, He is responsible for that physical part too. The pain signals ( _vedana_ ) of that happens.

**Questioner:** Yes, He has _vedana_ of it, He is aware of that, but we cannot say that He is suffering the _vedana_ , can we?

**Dadashri:** The effect ( _asar_ ) happens. But at that time He has tremendous _tapa_ (penance). He does not suffer any mental pain ( _vedana_ ). He does not suffer any _vedana_ (pain signals) of speech.

**Questioner:** How is the difference between mental and physical pain ( _vedana_ )?

**Dadashri:** Mental pain ( _vedana_ ) is something that can go away with _Gnan_ , but physical pain ( _vedana_ ) cannot be removed with _Gnan_. If one has a toothache, it reaches all the way.

**Questioner:** This mental pain ( _vedana_ ), what kind is it?

**Dadashri:** Whole world is in mental pain, is it not? These people do not have physical pain ( _vedana_ ) at all. They only have mental pain ( _vedana_ ). Even God will know a toothache, when it happens, but He is in penance ( _tapa_ ) during it. He 'sees' how it has become red hot within.

**Questioner:** But body suffers the pain, does it not?

**Dadashri:** Body suffers, but that is where the sufferer is. That is where the ego suffers. So He (the Knower within, The Lord) Knows even that. He does not take any interest in the _shata_ _vedaniya_ (pleasure). Therefore he does not have any interest in _ashata_ (pain). He remains only in his _Gnan_. This _veda_ means to suffer ( _vedavoo_ ), suffer ( _bhgavavoo_ ) and to Know. _Veda_ means to Know. So the meaning of _veda_ ranges from suffering to Knowing that pain. However many gradation (stages of progression) there are, that many levels.

They have penance at that time, _Gnan_ (Knowledge as the Self, experience of the Self)- _darshan_ (Vision, understanding as the Self)- _charitra_ (Conduct as the Self) and _tapa_ (penance as the Self), but only until they attain _kevalGnan_ (absolute Knowledge). There is nothing after attaining _kevalGnan_. They have become absolute. Nothing touches the absolute. Lord Mahavir had to suffer pain ( _vedana_ ) until _kevalGnan_ happened.

**Questioner:** But they say that even after the happening of _kevalGnan_ , he had many pains ( _vedanas_ ), and physical pains ( _kashta_ ), did he not?

**Dadashri:** All those physical pains were there to the body. Body does have _shata_ - _ashata_ (pleasure-pain), but they do not touch him. He does not even have to do _tapa_ (penance). For him _Gnan_ - _Darshan_ - _Charitra_ (also known as _ratnatraya_ ) is natural and spontaneous.

**Questioner:** _Bhogavali_ _karma_ (the _karma_ of suffering) do not leave even _Tirthankaras_ alone, what kind of _karma_ are they?

**Dadashri:** They will not leave anyone alone.

**Questioner:** Does one bind _Tirthankara_ _gotra_ (lineage) and at the same time bind _bhogavali_ _karma_?

**Dadashri:** Yes, he does not have a choice. Either _shata_ (pleasure) or _ashata_ (pain). Even _Tirthankaras_ have both, _shata_ and _ashata_. They have both as their unfolding _karma_. Difference is in the suffering. People may think that they are in pain. When people see me, they may say, Dada has a fever. But I Know of the unfolding _karma_ , I Know of the suffering. So, even _Tirthankaras_ have _shata_ - _ashata_ in their unfolding _karma_.

**Questioner:** How long do they suffer ( _vedey_ ) _shata_ and _ashata_?

**Dadashri:** Until they attain _kevalGnan_. _Shata_ - _ashata_ do not have any effect at all after they attain _kevalGnan_. The physical body does have _shata_ - _ashata_ _vedaniya_ (pleasure-pain producing _karma_ ). The body will feel cold when it is cold, will it not? But they do not suffer ( _vedey_ ) it. There are many things where, 'we' do not suffer pain.

##  Dada at the Time of Unfolding of Vedaniya Karma

Doctors had come together, when my hip had fractured. One doctor said, 'Why is there a smile on his face with this bad a fracture?' so then another doctor, who was also a _mahatma_ , said, 'Don't say that, he is a _Gnani_ _Purush_. You see a smile because he is a _Gnani_ _Purush_.' Otherwise, his face would be gloomy, or he would be crying, or he will look as if he is going to cry. But look at the smile on his face! Fifty to hundred people were around all the time, so they asked me, 'What is this? Can you tolerate this much pain?' I told them, ''We' do not have to tolerate ( _sahan karavoo_ ) it'.

There are both _vedaniyas_ (pleasure and pain), no one has just _shata vedaniya_ (pleasure effect). But _vedaniya_ is in the form of _veda_ for 'us', it is in the form of Knowing. Still, 'we' have not seen pain ( _dukha_ ) any second. Any time the body has been ready to leave, or anything else has happened, 'we' have not seen much of _ashata vedaniya_ (pain effect). 'We' have remained in the _veda_ , which means, 'we' would Know that this is what is happening now. However, naturally 'we' have not faced many instances of _ashata vedaniya._ At most 'we' have _ashata vedaniya_ of teeth.

**Questioner:** What about the coughing that happens?

**Dadashri:** I consider coughing beneficial, that it is good that it happened. It wakes me up in the night, does it not? 'Our' desire is to stay up at night. 'Our' desire is to remain aware ( _jagrut_ ) whatever way we can. So, on the contrary, coughing keeps 'us' awake. Therefore, I considered it beneficial. There is no suffering in anything that you consider beneficial, is there? Yes, I do have toothaches. And, recently I had gone to Kuchha for three days, where I had liver pain. That _ashata vedaniya_ had arisen, but I continued 'Knowing' that _vedaniya_. That is all.

**Questioner:** Do you not feel pain?

**Dadashri:** There is pain, but nothing happens to the Self. Therefore, as long as 'we' are in the Self, it does not affect 'us'. I did have the pain, I had it for three days. I could not sleep for three nights. I would be awake within, but fell asleep at times. 'We' would know that 'Dada' is sitting.

If even _Tirthankaras_ have _vedaniya_ , then why would others not have it? But they have less _ashata_. See what kind of a month 'we' had? Dada had an accident, and then this (liver problem) came, it felt as if the light was about to go out.

**Questioner:** Nothing like that is going to happen, Dada.

**Dadashri:** No, not like that. Hiraba (Dadashri's wife) left, then does this not have to go too? Which _vedaniya_ is that?

**Questioner:** _Ashata vedaniya_.

**Dadashri:** People think that 'we' have the _ashata vedaniya_. But _vedaniya_ does not touch 'us', it does not even affect _Tirthankaras_. We do not have remorse over Hiraba leaving, 'we' are not even affected, are 'we'?

Some people may feel that _vedaniya_ (suffering) has come to 'us'. _Ashata vedaniya_ (suffering of pain) has not touched 'us' for even a minute; not even for a second for last thirty years.

##  'You' Know Your Suffering

It is decided for sure that one will suffer only so much _shata_ (pleasure) and so much _ashata_ (pain). He will not stop from doing _ashata_. He will roll this way and that way, but he will 'do' _ashata_.

**Questioner:** Dada, that is when one has not attained _Gnan_ , is it not? All that is gone after you gave us the _Gnan_ , has it not?

**Dadashri:** Yes, that is all gone, but here 'we' are just telling you.

If one is crying, he is getting upset, but it is enough if there is the awareness that, as the Self, 'I am separate.' 'I am not 'Chandu'. 'I am not 'Chandu' in any way or form. So when suffering ( _vedana_ ) is pleasure ( _shata_ ), in _shata_ people believe 'I am Chandu', but when can one be convinced that 'I am not Chandu'?' It is when pain ( _ashata_ ) happens. Therefore, it is definite that really 'I am not Chandu'.

**Questioner:** So then the other state does not remain.

**Dadashri:** Then there is no problem, is there?

##  Vedaniya Does not Touch the one who is Absolutely Independent

As the experience of the Self keeps increasing, one will also Know the _vedaniya_. This is bitter, this is sweet. What does _veda_ mean? One does not have _vedaniya_ of bitter. That means that bitter will feel bitter, but he does not suffer the _ashata_. Sweet will feel sweet, but there is no suffering of _shata_. He knows sweet as sweet, and bitter as bitter, that is all. That is called _veda_.

**Questioner** : Yes, but that is when he is absorbed in the Self, is it not? it happens only when his awareness ( _upayoga_ ) is constantly in the Self, is it not? Now if there is not the presence of the total bliss of the Self , till then some suffering of _shata_ - _ashata_ will remain, will it not?

**Dadashri** : 'I am _Shuddhatma_ ' is dependency on words ( _shabdavlumban_ ) That is the beginning of _pratiti_ (conviction), l _aksha_ (awareness) and _anubhav_ (experience). From there, it keeps increasing, keeps increasing, keeps increasing till it becomes absolutely independent ( _niralumb_ ). All long, til then, there is no change in the experience of the Self. There is a difference in the level of suffering _vedaniya_ (pleasure or pain). Not in the experience of this, the Self.

'I am _Shuddhatma_ ', that indeed is the _pratiti_ (conviction). But there is difference in _vedaniya_ there. As the dependency decreases within, then absolute independent state ( _niralumb_ ) will happen, then _vedaniya_ will not touch him. As long as there is dependency, _vedaniya_ touches him.

*****

#  [2.7]

#  Naamkarma

##  Not Chitragupta but the Secret of Naamkarma

Now I will tell you the sixth. Then there is the name, 'I am Chandu, I am Chandu'. This name is _naamrupa karma_. Name Chandubhai, I am an engineer, I am white, I am black, I am blind, I am fat, I am skinny. I am this and, I am that, that is all _naamrupa karma_.

Now, there is only one _dravya karma_ , but it has eight parts. This _naamkarma_. It means that you can see the _rupa_ (form)- _rang_ (color). When you can see the design and everything, it is _naamkarma_. It is this shape and form, the shape of the body.

**Questioner** : So, what is called book of _Chitragupta_ (a Hindu God assigned with the task of keeping complete records of activity of human beings), is the whole book of accounts?

**Dadashri** : No, but they are all _chitra gupta_ , (subtle paintings of karma accounts) are they not?

**Questioner** : Everything is painted secretly ( _gupta_ ).

**Dadashri** : It ( _Chitragupta_ ) is not an individual. Who is the one who shapes and forms this body? There is a 'sculptor' in the form of _naamrupa karma_. It is an account of _karma_. A 'sculptor' in the form of _naamrupa karma_ ; the shape of the body is according how it shapes it. No one else has to come to form-shape it, it happens by itself. One does not have to do anything in this world. What runs this world? It runs naturally.

Many have imagined that Brahma (Hindu God of Creation) creates all this. No one goes to create it. It happens automatically...the 'painting' just happens, from _bhaav_ (charge) _karma_. Naam karma keeps creating 'painting' only. _Naamrupa karma_ keeps giving it a shape and everything.

Now, there are many karma after _the naamrupa karma_. This kind of a body, this kind of bones, head like this, eyes like this, personality like this, there are many such kinds. These are all in this 'candle'. This is collectively called _naam karma;_ it is called _naam dravyakarma_.

##  Even the Body is due to Naamrupa Karma

**Questioner** : Yes, so is there any accumulation (of karma) from the past?

**Dadashri** : Yes, there is past accumulation. _Naamrupa karma_ is something that is settled (decided). _Naamrupa karma_ is considered _chitara karma_ , so it has design and everything. Other karma do not have this. A big forehead, large ears, large nose, all the limbs, whole design is in its hands. Hence, _naan karma_ can be called a designer. Do you understand what _naamrupa karma_ does? Are everyone's noses different, or are they all the same?

**Questioner** : They are all different.

**Dadashri** : So they have not come out of a mold, have they? Does one have a nose like his father? If it is like his father's, then they have all come out from a mold, but that is not the case. _Naamrupa karma_ creates a mold; different _naamrupa karma_ create differend molds. If everyone was alike, then you will not know who went to whose home, there will be no certainty.

They are all not the same, are they? One will recognise his parents immediately, will he not? Can a husband not find his wife easily, and vice versa?

This face, the body and everything, they are the _dravya karma_. Then what else is there? All this _naamrupa karma_ is considered _dravya karma_. _Naamrupa_ (name)- _roop_ (form) is all _dravyakarma_. Then there is _yashnam_ _karma_ (karma which brings fame), _apyash_ _karma_ (karma which brings defame), _adeya naamrupa karma_ (respect bringing), they are all _dravya_ _karma_ , any fame or defame one gets, it is not _nokarma_. Receivin _g_ respect or disrespect is not _nokarma_. They are all _dravyakarma_.

Even committing suicide is _naam karma_. It is based on _naam karma_. When one comits suicide, it is also based on _naam karma_.

How methodical talk this is, is it not? _Aghaat_ (heavy mental or physical blow), _paraghaat_ (mental or physical blow to others) are on the basis of _naamrupa karma_. Who else he is going to kill, he has come with that account of karma effect with him, even killing himself; committing suicide. Many such _naamrupa karma_ , he has come with many such things.

And there are many forms of _naam karma_. Naming this body is also _naam karma_. If the body is tall, it is _naam karma_ , and if it is short, it is also _naam karma_. What does one say when he is short? He is an _adhee hattho moovo._ If he is tall, then they say he is _bahot ooncha, bahot bevakoof_ (very tall very stupid) _._ So if he is tall they call him _bevakoof._ If he is short, they call him _adhee hathho._ So _mooah_ (mortal), where can I live? Then the answer is, 'come to the normal'.If you are normal, we will not call you with names.If the height is of five and a half feet, we have no problem.

**Questioner** : But what is the characteristic of _adhee hathha_?

**Dadashri** : The meaning of _adhee hathha_ (two and a half hand length, each hand-arm length is one anda half feet) means he is thre and thre quarter feet tall. He amy be four feet _adhee hathho._ What next? The answer is, he is one and half feet below the earth, underground,

**Questioner** : So he completed his height this way.

**Dadashri** : So he is one of those who will cheat everyone and roll hem into his pocket. That is why people had slandered him! The _moovo_ is _adhee hathho_ , they will say; don't go near him.

**Questioner** : So that one (the tall one) is considered stupid ( _bevakoof_ ), and this one is called cunning ( _loocho_ ).

**Dadashri** : The other person became stupid, he becomes cunning.

**Questioner** : Yes, then that is 'relativity' (relative).

**Dadashri** : Yes, of-course there is relative. If one becomes above normal, he start becoming shorter, and the one who is below normal will start becoming taller. The _adhee hathho_ is very cunning. People used to be scared of _adhee hathhas_ in the past. The current era is good. Such _adhee hathaa_ are not around, are they? Now they are all tall people with the height of five and half to five and three quarter feet, they are all tall. But they are slightly stupid, but there is no need to mention that. Because this is good. Stupidity is good. If the man is particularly cunning, then he gets deeply entrenched in worldly life, making everything exact in such away that matters of liberation are of no concern to him. These fools (the tall _bevakoofs_ ) will let go. It will not take them long if they find the right path.

Toes of some people's feet are like sheep, they are like those of animals. They have all that. All the limbs and the distal parts are not symmetrical. For some people thye are stuck together. Hey, how did they get stuck? Earlobes of Indians are hanging. They are going to _moksha_ , and that is why their earlobes are loose and hanging. If they are not going to _moksha_ , and they have a good heart, even then their lobes are hanging. They should be like yours, the way they move. In the foreign, even if he is a ranking minister, his earlobe is stuck.

**Questioner** : But Dada, some people's ears are big; their hands are big, are they not?

**Dadashri** : What big ears means is that if one is a _sadhu_ (ascetic) with big ears he has tremendous ambition as _sadhu_ , and if he is into worldly life, he has tremendous ambitions in the worldly life. But for that, one needs large ears like this, and our _Tirthankars'_ ears are this big. Where can you get such men from? Today, men have small ears like this.

One is creating a foundation to fulfill his ambition. Yes he is very motivated. Whichever line he is in, he is very ambitious in it. If he is into religion, then he is very ambitious in religion, and if he is into worldly life, he is very ambitious in the worldly life.

**Questioner** : Please explain that. How does he strengthen the foundation?

**Dadashri** : Yes, if he into religion, he will do it of the religion, and if he is into worldly life, he will do it of the worldly life. If he into religion, then he will go and do the _darshan_ (worship) of five-seven _sadhus_ early in the morning, he will do this and do that, he will go and five-ten _derasars_ (Jain temples) and do _darshan_ , he is very aggressively motivated about it. He will strengthen all the foundations, then it gets constructed and becomes ready.

Many other people have large ears, they are very exact and deeply involved in worldly interactions. They are into the worldly pleasures and enjoying them, they accumulate money for all that, enjoy the pleasures of the world; how many such desires one has within.

In the current era, it is not worth looking at the ears and noses. Ears like this are stuck on, and the noses like this are stuck on the bodies. If they wisen up, and change in front of the _Gnani,_ then we know that this is good.

**Questioner** : Can you know one by making a complete study of someone by looking at his face?

**Dadashri** : No, why would we go around looking for that? It is not worth looking at the faces of people of the current time era.

All the limbs and their distal parts convey the exact fitness (with refrence to name form _karma_ ). It is not a conjecture. What a wonderful talk this is of the _vitarags_! It is a wise talk.

Then, this body is _naam rupa karma_. That is also a _dravyakarma_ but there is no problem with this karma of body-name. That other ( _darshan avaraniya_ and _mohaniya karma_ ). All this arises from the illusion that you see, is the root cause of all this. That root cause should go away.

**Questioner** : Does this illusion begin with _naamrupa karma_ , Dada?

**Dadashri** : Illusion begins due to the _naamrupa karma_. The second a name is given illusion begins. Any name given, that this green, this is rose, is the beginning of illusion.

##  What Amazing Naamkarma of Lord Mahavir

**Questioner** : People say very strongly that one attains good state ( _gotra_ ), fame, good body, even _vedaniya_ only if he has (good) karma from his past life. He attains only if there is _naamrupa karma_ from his past life, he cannot attain these without it.

**Dadashri** : He will not attain them. If these attributes of _naam_ (name), _gotra_ (status) are good within, then. There are fifty six kinds of qualities, they are all good. And it is a different matter about a _Tirthankara_. _Tirthankara naamrupa karma_ is extraordinary. _Tirthankar naama karma_ and _Tirthankara gotrakarma_ come together.

What must be the _naam karma_ of Lord Mahavir like? Your heart will become very pleased and still just seeing him. Was he made out of diamonds? Diamond will not make your heart still. When you see a large diamond, you will like looking at it for a while, and then nothing. Here, your mind will not get tired at all. You will keep wanting to look at him. That much was his beauty. Can one become a _Tirthankara_ just like that? Beauty of the whole world is in just one man! And look at the men with the so called beauty today? You see them everywhere, do you not?

Two attributes, _naam karma_ should be good, and one's _bhaav_ (inner intent) should be good. Then you will know that his is really a noble man. Yes, when the two come together, one becomes noble. All the _bhaav_ without the _naam karma_ is worthless. Even God has praised _naam karma_. When does one have _naamkarma_? He has to bind very high quality karma for _naamkarma_ to arise.

##  Aadeya-Anadaya Naamkarma

So, _naamkarma_ has many kinds. _Aadeya_ _naamkarma_. If there is _aadeya_ _naamkarma_ , when this _sheth_ (important boss) goes home, even before entering into the home, everyone at home will say, 'Welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome.' He has not even entered the home, he is still climbing the stairs. Hey, what is all that? He has come with _aadeya_ _naamkarma_. 'We' (Dadashri) have that too. Against that, there is also _anaadeya_ _naamkarma_. And if the _sheth's_ brother-in-law comes, even if the poor man has come after three months, no one will say, 'Welcome' to him as he is coming up the stairs. He enters the home on his on. He is fifty years old, should one not say, 'Welcome' to him? No one will say that, he will go straight there. Even if he is twenty-five years old, one should welcome him. One will ask, is this a fault of the _sheth_? No, it is only your own disease of _anaadeya_ _karma._ The _sheth_ is not at fault. Why did the _sheth_ receive the _aadeya,_ welcome and not the brother-in-law? Call _sheth_ sefish or anything, this is disease of _anadeya_ is of the brother-in-law. So this family-race and everything else comes in your _dravyakarma_.

For 'us' there is _aadeya_ wherever we go. 'We' have never, in the young age, been without _aadeya_ _naamkarma_ , because right from the beginning 'we' have been _nispruha_ (without any inclination). 'We' have never wanted anything, always doing good for others ( _paropkari_ ; benevolent). Such were the attributes in every way; that is why. These are not the attributes of this life, the _aadeya karma_ of the attributes of the past life had become imprinted.

_Aadeya karma_ means that wherever he goes, people will say, 'Wecome, wekcome', even when he goes to an unfamiliar place.

If we have gone to a jungle, people around me be surprised. What is this called; this man brings a cushion for you here? No matter how torn and broken down it is, where you cannot find anything else, not even a leaf to sit on. I say, that is the _aadeya naamkarma_. Wherever you go, there is realm of welcome ahead.

However, there is no problem if they do not invite me. But all our Patels ( _patidaars_ ) around will get upset. They will not go even go anywhere (without invitation and respect).

**Questioner** : But that is for everyone. Everyone like it when someone says 'welcome', does he not?

**Dadashri** : Yes. Welcome, welcome with respect ( _aadar_ ), and for 'us' they have to mandatorily say, 'welcome, welcome', because 'we' are considered _aadeyamaan_. _Aadeyamaan_ means that wherever 'we' go, if 'we' have gone to see Indira Gandhi (past India Prime Minister), and as soon as she see 'us' waiting outside to see her, she will say, 'Welcome, welcome'. When they first hear the name, they will tell you to come, then they become all excited and say, 'Welcome, welcome'. Then they will not invite if anyone from the family comes, even if they have come after a year or three years. They will not welcome him even when he has come inside. He has come with _anaadeya naam karma_. So they will not welcome him even when we inform them that that _sheth_ is coming.

It is fun watching the tricks of the play of karma. Can you say what tricks karma will play? There are all kinds of karma.

##  Yash-Upyash Naamkarma

Dishonor, _upyash_ _naam karma_ (defame bringing karma) is included in _naam karma_. In this upy _ashnaam karma_ someone who runs around performing many errands will complain, 'I run so many errands for him and yet all I get is discredit and dishonor.' Hey _mooah_ (mortal), you have brought dishonor ( _upyash_ ) with you (from past life), so then he will give you dishonor, no? No matter how many errands you run, you will not get any appreciation. If you have brought _yashnaam karma_ (fame bearing karma; credit bearing karma where one will be praised by everyone for anything he does) with you then, even if you have not done anything; you will be honored. So you get what you brought forth.

**Questioner:** I have seen many incidents of miracles around you as I have with other sages. I have experienced a few miracles myself. Others have experienced miracles, only from your picture, even though they have never seen you in person. So what is this that you have?

**Dadashri:** There are no miracles with me whatsoever. I am not a magician. I am not doing these miracles.

**Questioner:** Then how does it happen?

**Dadashri:** This is just that the _Gnani_ _Purush_ , has a very high level of honor bearing _yashnaam karma_ , so by a mere touch of 'our' hand, his work gets done and he will say that Dada did this. I may not have done that. Just a mere touch of 'our' hand gets his work done.

And what is the meaning of _upyash naam karma_ (defame bringing karma)? You do the work yet you get dishonor and disrespect and I do not do anything yet I get all the credits and honor. I am not doing anything. They keep honoring and giving credit needlessly; it is a kind of _yashnaam karma_ and that is what people call a miracle. I give you one hundred percent guarantee that there is no such thing as a miracle in this world.

**Questioner:** Your saying such thing is the biggest miracle. Others will take credit that yes we...

**Dadashri:** Such people have some kind of self-interest and selfish motive; one or another type of selfishness is there. I have come here to tell you that that which is pure, that fact. I will not call that which 'it is' as 'it is not', and that which 'it is not' as 'it is.' These words will not flow from me.

**Questioner:** But Dada, those saints have such _siddhis_ (powers) that someone may think that, with their grace they will benefit people. Then is it through the medium of the ego?

**Dadashr:** No. It is true that saints always have a line (on the palm, karma) for the fame and credit ( _yashrekha_ ). Their fame _yashnaam_ is so abundant; it works for them as per their limit. Some have brought dishonor _upyash_ and some have brought honor _yash_ with them. That honor _yash karma_ works so much that a mere touch of his hand will get the other person's work done. That is called _yashnaam karma._ Other then this, it is not possible for a human to do anything; even these Gnanis are helpless in this regard.

**Questioner:** No, but there are some saints whose grace can cure the diseases of others.

**Dadashri:** That grace itself is the _yashnaam karma_ (Fame bearing karma). The one who has it has it; other will not have it.

**Questioners:** The one, who has attained it, will have it.

**Dadashri:** Yes, 'we' do not have such a thing. We have only that; we have all kinds of _yashnaam karma_. Therefore, you keep on saying the name (Dada-Dada Bhagwan). Your work will be done. We have nothing to do with it and yet we have complete _yashnaam karma._ Nothing has been done (by us) and yet the fame and honor comes on our doorstep. Even when I do not want it, honor comes to me. This is because a very high level of honor bearing karma has been brought forth from past life. I have brought forth very high order of respect _adeya_ bearing karma and _yashnaam karma_.

Therefore our people say, 'Dada, you perform all kinds of miracles. After you did that, this happened to us'. I tell them, 'If I performed miracles, I would do it to cure my breathing problems, would I not?'

I had gone to Bhadran once, where there was an eighty two year old, very religious man, who would become very cheerful and come into joy just seeing me. When he discovered that I was in town, he thought that it will be long before he saw my face, if he remained sitting at home. So he sat in the middle of the road, so that he can do my _darshan_ as soon as I entered the road. He had so much worshipful feelings, so he fell to my feet and grabbed hold of my leg saying, 'Dada Bhagwan, Dada Bhagwan'. So I gave a thump on his back. And what happened was that the next day his backache that had existed for twelve years went away. So he went and told the whole village that Dada removed his ailment of twelve years by thumping my back just once. So people of the village started coming to my home. Especially those who could pressure me, they would come sooner. They told me, 'At least do this much for me'. I told them to understand this much, I too have to take a laxative when I have constipation so that I can relieve myself. Therefore, this...

**Questioner** : It is like what happens when a crow sits on a branch and it breaks off.

**Dadashri** : Yes, yes, that is it. I thumped him on his back, and what was going to happen to him, happened. I will receive _yash_ (fame) because of _yashnaamkarma_. Even if I do not do anything I will receive _yash_ (credit). And some people have _upyash naamkarma_ , if such a person does work for you a hundred times, even then you will say, 'No, he does not do anything for me.' Does that happen or not?

Surrender all your pains to me, then I gurantee that they will not come to you if you do not remember them. They will come to you if you remember them. That is because I have come with _yashnaam karma_. So whoever I put my hand on, his work gets done. So everyone will find his or her solution. If _yashnaamkarma_ is not there, then the poor people will become entangled.

**Questioner** : You have brought a lot of _yashnaamkarma_.

**Dadashri** : And I see it too, and that is why people are at peace. How can they maintain peace otherwise, in this era of _dushamkaad_ in which pain is dominantly prevalent?

Once, before I had attained the _Gnan_ , a man come to me and told me, 'All my work got done because of you.' I told him, 'I do not know that, which work got done? He told me, 'You would say just that. It happened because of your presence. You are the one who did it.' 'I have not done anything. I do not even know anything in this.' So he says, 'It was not possible for my daughter's wedding to be fixed, and you helped it in arranging it. You used your special energies.' So then I had a thought that some other person must have done this and instead of giving him the credit, he has come to give it to me. I told him, 'This credit is not for me, someone else has done that and so go and give him the credit.' So he tells me, 'I am leaving it here, you are the one who did it'. And the man who did it met me the following day, and he told me, 'I did all this for him and yet he gives me _upyash_ (blame, discredit) He took the credit away from me.' This is how all this storm continues.

Therefore, from my young age, even when I have not done anything, people will come and give me the credit. Now what can I do if they come and drop off the credit? So then I realized that this is _yashnaam_ _karma_.

**Questioner** : What would you do with that credit?

**Dadashri** : Nothing. 'We' do a _vidhi_ like this and give it back, because 'we' would not keep it. 'We' would not keep even if 'we' did it, would we? It is because 'we' are not the doer at all, 'we' are just the _nimit_ , because my hand touched. 'I' am neither the hand, not the leg. This is only unfolding of your karma, and my hand happens to touch you. It was going to be cured and my hand touched at that time. I only get the credit ( _yash_ ) that Dada cured it. I will get all that _yash_ , and so he tells me that I did it. I told him that I do not do any such thing. I just proclaimed that it is the _yashnaamkarma_ that is there. Until now, people were not told by others that, 'this is due to my _yashnaamkarma'_. People do say that you cured me. They (other masters) enjoy that at that time, so they do not let go of that taste. When they do not let go of that taste, they miss _moksha_. They made a home on this path , then they miss out on that goal ( _dhyeya_ of _moksha_ ) _,_ do they not?

**Questioner** : But whenever we have a relative problem and we come here to you and get a _vidhi_ done, then it gets solved.

**Dadashri** ; Yes, I am the _nimit_. They come and do the _vidhi_ , and the _devas_ through whom the work is possible, I know them. Those who are going to be _nimit_ in this, I make a connection with them and pass the message on to them that, 'this is his pain and problem, please cure it', that is all. 'We' do not keep accounts or take any commision. I had a _sanket_ (subtle message from within) that you will give this _Gnan_. But in this current era of the time cycle, people have lot of pains, and in such pains this _Gnan_ will not prevail. Based on this _sanket_ , this _yashnaamrkarma_ may have unfolded and based on that I am doing it. Otherwise a _Gnani_ will never do anything like this. _Gnani_ will not interfere like this; he would say 'Talk straight if you want to go to _moksha_ , do not talk about worldly life'. That is exactly what he will say. If I say this, then the poor man will run away the next day. Even he will say, 'I do not have a job, and you are saying this! Here, I am leaving. I am going home.' So I tell him that I will do the _vidhi_ for you. Preserve that _Gnan_.

There was a man who had a cancer and it was cured. It is not that it would not get cured. Some cancers will be cured, but there is no certainty. This is just his karmic account with me, and my _yashnaamkarma_ , otherwise would such cancer ever heal? Cancer itself means 'cancel'. Now five percent survival is a different thing.

That is why 'we' say that this is 'our' _yashnaamkarma_. This is a very strong _naamkarma_ , so it heals other people. The miracle that happens is a strong _yashnaamkarma_.

##  Fame and Defame Based on What?

**Questioner** : Who receives _yashkarma_ and who receives _upyashkarma_ , has one done something for that?

**Dadashri** : Yes, who receives _yashkarma_? He is the one who does not have a desire to do anything for his own self; but has the desire do for others. If one has to live his life for others, live with the intent that how can everyone else benefit, he will have _yashmaankarma_. And the one who lives for his own self, will receive _upyashkarma_. He will do the work but he will not be appreciated ( _yash_ ). So most of the people live for their own self, do they not? Only a few live their life for others.

Why did 'we' receive _yashnaamkarma_? 'We' make everyone content ( _santosh_ ). That is why there is tremendous _yashnaamkarma_. This is something that has to be seen very closely. If I am staying in someone's home in America, I keep seeing that no one incurs even a dime's worth of damage on my account. If others were doing the damage, I would caution them.

**Questioner** : What is the essential difference between _yashnaamkarma_ and _punyai_ (merit karma effect).

**Dadashri** : There is a lot of difference. No matter how much _punyai_ there is, one may still not receive _yash_ (credit). _Yashnaamkarma_ , in America, no matter whose home 'we' stay, and while 'we' are taking a bath and everything, it is in our awareness that 'we' make sure that not a penny's worth of harm happens on my account. That is where we stop. Whether there is an owner (of the home) or not. 'We' conduct ourselves everywhere as if 'we' ourselves are the owners, and any pain it causes you, is the same as pain occurring to us. Fruit of this ( _bhaav,_ intent) is _yashnaamkarma_.

It is in our constant awareness that it should not cause you any pain. This is how it all was in the past life, this is the (effect) _yashnaamkarma_ of all that. You do not have to do any _punyai_ for it. For _punyai_ , you have to make an effort.

**Questioner** : But is it not said that one binds _punyai_ when he makes the other person happy?

**Dadashri** : Whether the other person becomes happy or not, but from the second you made a _bhaav_ (inner intent) that you only want to make him happy, that is the beginning of _punyai_. Then till that activity happens, you are binding _punyai_.

**Questioner** : Yes, you also said that the cause of _yashnaamkarma_ is the intent not to hurt the other at all.

**Dadashri** : No, it is not that. Whether the other person gets hurt or not, one may get some credit ( _yash_ ), but he has brought the other discredits ( _upyash_ ) has he not? If one goes to someone's home for a bath and something is being wasted, he will say, 'What do I care What do I care?' Whereas, there are no such words like, 'what do I care' in my vision. I cannot bear to see even a penny worth of harm to others. For me there no such thing as, 'What do I care?' Everything is mine. That is why people give me _yash_ , otherwise they will not. Otherwise, they will give _upyash_.

You would do his work, and he will say, 'Leave him alone, he is unnecessarily ruining it all for me.' Such is this world. People do tell me, that no one gives them any credit ( _yash_ ). I tell them, 'Why would they give you?' Oh you respectable one! How careful are the respectable ones! Can _yash_ be attained just like that? _Tirthankaras_ are all respectable ones, very respectable. This is because their whole life is with the awareness that hurting others is the same as hurting the self. And you say that the he is suffering his karma, do you not? Was that person saying that?

**Questioner** : That is what was happening.

**Dadashri** : The rule is that he who is going to receive _upyash_ , will not receive _yash_. One person asked, 'How can I get _yash_?' I told him, 'When your whole day goes into the intent ( _bhaav_ ) of who you can help, intent for the good of everyone.' Your intent was that, 'I can do at least something for someone in this world, I want to oblige others etc. Ultimately, if I do not have any money at all, I have legs at least. I can run around for others, can I not?' You have legs, you have other things; you have _buddhi_ (intellect) to help him write letters. This is the fruit of such intent ( _bhaav_ ). So _yashnaamkarma_ is bound, and if your intent is of doing hurtful things and you do work hard, even then you will receive _upyash_. Then he will say, 'I did all the work and yet I receive _upyash_.' Hey, you have brought with you the _upyash_ , so you will receive _upyash_. You should do the work; accept the _upyash_. This is worth understanding, is it not? How methodical this talk is? So there is karma by the name of _upyash_ in this 'candle'.

##  Great Karma With Intent of Salvation of the World

So _naamkarma_ is a very big thing. There are all kinds of _naamkarma_. There are many kinds of karma, such that higher _naamkarma_ is bound through certain karma, and a lower _naamkarma_ through some karma.

**Questioner** : Which karma are considered higher type _naamkarma_?

**Dadashri** : If you have high thoughts of doing something for the salvation of the world, even the intention of salvation of your enemy; when you have such things, then you bind higher _naamkarma_.

If one has made inner intent of the salvation of the world for a very long time, in many life times, then you will have a very high _yashnaamkarma_. _Yashnaamkarma_ arises only from the inner intent of the salvation of the world. In whatever proportion one has desire that the world, that others become happy, that much _yashnaamkarma_ is bound. And when you harass the world, you bind _upyashnaamkarma_.

##  That was Dada's Naamkarma

'We' had a fracture in our hip, so I investigated if this was _vedaniya karma_ or what? If it was _vedaniya karma_ , it will make me cry, and create a problem, will it not? Then, as I investigated, I discovered that there is a mistake in the _naamkarma_.

What comes into _naamkarma_ , limbs-distal parts, height, not very tall, not very short, normality. If all the limbs are the same in _naamkarma_ , there is this much defect (one leg became shorter after the fracture healed). It is not _vedaniya_. So I had investigated. I had not told you that, did I? This is _naamkarma_. People will think that _vedana_ (pain signal suffering) has not come, and nothing has happened, and so what is this? There is some mistake in the _naamkarma_. So do you not have to find that of what karma of yours is this effect of? What mistake had happened, that this effect has come?

One becomes helpless in front of a doctor's diagnosis. Nothing happened in this case of the hip fracture, did it? All the doctors always saw me smiling. These doctors sent other doctors to go and see the clear _Atma_. I explained that to you that this is not vedaniya _karma_. It is a _naamkarma_ and not a _gotrakarma_. If there was any fault in the _gotrakarma_ , many _mahatmas_ would not feel like doing the _darshan_ , _lokapujyata_ (worthy of people worship) will become less. On the contrary _lokapujyata_ increased.

*****

#  [2.8]

#  Gotrakarma

##  Lokpujya, Loknindya Gotra

How many are these?

**Questioner** : Six.

**Dadashri** : Now the seventh is _gotrakarma_. One has brought also that in the candle.

Whoever comes here, he bows to me and then sits down; does he not? Do I have to go and tell him anything? Who makes him do that? It is the _gotrakarma_ (status-determining karma) that does that. This is a high _gotra_ (status). When some other person comes, he will tell him, 'Why have you come here? Go away from here.' There is low _gotra_ there. _Gotrakarma_ is a _dravyakarma_.

Now, the higher _gotra_ is a _lokapujya_ (worthy of reverence by all). It is _gotra_ that is revered by everyone. And what is a low _gotra_? People will criticize and talk behind his back; about his state in society. Do people not say, 'Do not mingle with a lower level (criticized by all) person'? If one is born in a good family, he has the ego of that, and the one born in a bad family keeps feeling that he is from a lower level in society. Those are all _dravyakarma_.

Now, there is _gotrakarma_ in this body. People will say that he is son of the son of Ranchod Hargovind (a nobleman appreciated by all). So people will think ' Wow! _Lokapujya'_ (worshipped by people). People think this way. They feel as if an important person has come. Now, _lokapujya gotra_ does not exist nowadays. _Lokpujya gotra_ is that such people are held with high respect in worldly interaction. They are all _dravyakarma_. This formation of body is _dravyakarma_.

Nowdays _gotra_ (status) does not mean anything. Even then people say, 'We are of this _gotra_ , we are of this _gotra_.' How has the Lord defined _gotra_ , and what people have interpreted it to be? High _gotra_ is considered something that is revered by everyone ( _lokapujya_ ). It is fractionally within you too. Even your relatives and the loved ones have some fraction of it too. Only a _Gnani_ _Purush_ and _Tirthankaras_ are complete _lokapujya_ , no one else besides them is. When _nani_ _Purush_ and _Tirthankaras_ are passing by, people will keep bowing down to them, and also behind them (after they are gone).

Then in _gotrakarma_ , one can be famous or has become defamed. If someone is saying something negative about this _shaheb_ (respected man), so the other person will say, 'No you cannot say that about him, you will unnecessarily incur a karmic liability. You cann not say that.' That is what one will say behind him. What will people say behind a _lokapujya's_ back? They will say, 'Do not say that. It is wrong. It looks bad'. Become _lokpujya_ like that. People will stop criticizing and talking behind your back. And with our _Gnan_ , it is possible to become like that. Otherwise it is not possible. This _Gnan_ is such. Do you think that it is achievable with _Gnan_?

When two to five people are talking negative, that is the consequence of their _raag_ - _dwesh_ (attachment-abhorrence). Where as in _lokanindya karma_ unfolding every one will be critical and say, 'Let him go!' That is _lokanindya_. Even when one does good work, people will say, 'Let him go, do not even mention his name.' that is called _lokanindya_. Poor man comes under people's criticism. Even when he tries to do something good, people will criticise him. They will say, 'He must have ruined it, no one else would do that.' Hey! He did not do it. They will still say, 'No', and they will blame him.

So there is _lokapujya_ , and the other is _lokanindya_. Is there not any _lokanindya_ person in Ahmedabad? Is there not one worthy of receiving _ninda_ (negative talk) of?

**Questioner** : There must be.

**Dadashri** : How many, five to ten percent?

**Questioner** : Must be more than that.

**Dadashri** : Twelve percent? However, people do not have time to waste on criticizing others. But if one is eating meat, drinking alcohol, gambling, then will peope not criticizie him? That is called a _lokanindya_ _karma_.

##  Bhaavkarma Charged Instantly Through Egoism of High Status

High _gotra_ , low _gotra_ , they are all _dravyakarma_. So he received this free of cost, based on _dravyakarma_. Then as a result of high _gotra_ , one becomes 'tight' (arrogant) and his ego increases. And the other person is filled with inferiority complex, as a result of low _gotra_. He does not need to exercise (do) his inferiority, and the other person does not need to exercise (do) his superiority. Then these two become _bhaavkarma_ (charge karma).

Till now one has proclaimed, 'I of noble lineage ( _koodvaan_ ); I worthy of respect ( _lokapujya_ )'. There are others who feel and say,'I am of a lower cast. This one who is of criticised ( _lokanindya_ ), that is not You (the Self)' That is all _dehadhyas_ ('I am this body'). Nothing of that is Yours. So get rid of the of all pride and arrogance, and if you are lower, get rid of the inferiority. Get rid of both, the inferiority complex and the superiority complex, they are not Yours. Now, one has brought result of _gotrakarma_ , and because of that he gives rise to a new _bhaavkarma_ (in the ignorant state).

This Dada is considered _lokapujya_. He came here having bound high _gotra_. even that, he will have to leave it all here, in this very life. It will not go with him. Even _yash_ ( _fame_ ) and _upyash_ (defame) _naam karma_ is not going to go with him. And if one wanders off into seeking more respect from people _lokapujya_ , he will not attain _moksha_ ever again.

_Lokapujya_ means that, people will bow down, like this, behind us as 'we' are passing by. When 'we' are asleep with blanket over us, people will do 'our' _darshan_ like this, and leave. One would ask, 'Who took note of all that?' You do not have to see that. This is _lokapujya_! I have brought with me the worthiness of being worshipped ( _pujyapanu_ ). Even in a stranger on a trainwith whom I have done four hours worth of _satsang_ , _pujyata_ (desire to worship) will arise within him. That is called _lokpujyapanu_ (worthiness of being worshipped). This is called high _gotrakarma_. Very rarely there are such _lokapujya_ people in the world. There is everything in the world, but there is no such a _lokapujya_ person. But if you ever come across such a person your work will get done.

Not the respect _lokapujyata_ of a president, or if one sees a policeman, he says, 'Sir, come in, come in.' why does he say that? And after he leaves, he will say, 'Let him go, let him go away'. People respect them out of fear. Why? It is for him so that some day if he gets into difficulty with him, why not give him a him a little respect in advance? It is a kind of a fear, is it not?

##  One who is not Lokanindya is Considered Lokapujya in This era

This is a strange era, neither _lokapujya_ (praised by the world) nor _lokanindya_ (defamed by the world), the Lord accepts this as _lokapujya_. Hence there should not be any _lokanindya_. It is over when one comes into the _lokanindya_.

Therefore, 'we' used our independent vote. He who is not _lokanindya_ , he is _lokapujya_ in this era. _Lokapujya_ that _Tirthankars_ considered, they called that based on the era of that time. In this current era of time, what 'we' are saying is that we call those as _lokapujya_ who are not _lokanindya_. 'We' are taking on the responsibility for that. So do not become _lokanindya_. It is fine if you cannot become _lokapujya_ ; you will not be able to, it is going to be tough, but it will be great if you do not become _lokanindya_. There should not be any _lokanindya._

It is fine that you do not have the _lokpujyata_ , but this time era is such that you have to take a difficult test, so you will be given eatra marks (credit). Even the Lord will do the same, because I am saying that. This is because what I am saying, is impartial, I do not have any bias in this. When your _lokanindya_ activity will stop, you will go into the _lokapujya_. Although you are not being respected, you have still come into _lokapujya_ , because the test is difficult. That is why I told you this middle state.

And _lokapujya_ are rare in this era. So 'we' should you another way, that those who do not become _lokanindya_ , we will consider them _lokapujya_. If mistakes have been made, consider a new lesson, that if you do not do anything from now onwards, that will bring you into _lokanindya_ , that is considered very good, is it not?

And the _lokapujya_ you see in people around us, when their activity are not good they are not considered _lokapujya_ , but they are not considered _lokanindya_. If you call them _lokapujya_ , they will say, 'We are _lokapujya_ , we are _lokapujya._ ' They will all latch on to that. There can be only two to five _lokapujya_ persons in India. Can there be _lokapujya_? Then there are others who are _lokanindya_. The third category is of the many who are neither _lokapujya_ nor _lokanindya._ Even the wife does not respect him, his children not listen to him; so then how are other people going to respect him? His own disciples do not listen to him, so then how are the others going to respect him?

And do you like this third sentence? This is the discovery of Dada. Otherwise, there is nothing but _lokanindya_ everywhere. There is always some kind of _ninda_ (negative criticism) going on today. Do you understand all this? A new scripture has come out.

**Questioner** : There is no negative, it is straight positive.

**Dadashri** : He is in the positive; that is only why he is indeed _lokapujya_. They are positive people all around like this, are they not? All our _sheths_ (business men) are positive. So they are not _nindya_ (criticized by others). Some become _nindya_ (defamed) due to bad habits, then they have bad company. They hurt others through immorality...

**Questioner** : They can be recognized.

**Dadashri** : Yes, they cannot be considered _lokapujya_. So there should be a moral binding. So that is _lokapujya_. Right now 'we' have relaxed the definition of _lokapujya_ a little, otherwise one will not be considered _lokapujya_ at all, will he? There is no such person. Therefore 'we' made it easy. Those who are not _lokanindya_ , they are _lokapujya_ , nowadays.

##  Tirthankara Gotra Bound Through Darshan Only

**Questioner** : Right now, what kind of karma there are that these are considered _naamkarma_ and these are considered _gotrakarma_?

**Dadashri** : All the donations made here, is considered good karma ( _satkarma_ ) are they not? All that goes into _naamkarma_. And if one has to do salvation of the world through intent ( _bhaav_ ), it is considered _gotrakarma_.

King Shrenik bound a _Tirthankara gotra_ just by doing the _darshan_ of Lord Mahavir. And countless people have come to Lord Mahavir, had his _darshan_ and yet, spent countless lives wandering around; there are such people too. This is because despite _darshan_ of the Lord, the machine inside t turned in the negative direction, and this caused them countless life times.

That King Shrenik, he will become the first _Tirthankara_ by the name of Padmanabha, in the next cycle of twenty-four _Tirthankaras_. Just through the _darshan_ of Lord Mahavir! Now, many people did _darshan_ at that time, do they not? But no, but some guru had given vision to King Shrenik in one of his past lives; that vision and this _darshan_ came together, and immediately bound the _Tirthankara gotra_.

*****

#  [2.9]

#  Ayushyakarma

##  What makes one bound in the body is ayushyakarma

From that candle, what number is this?

**Questioner** : Seventh.

**Dadashri** : Now remains the eighth. It is decided that the candle is going to come to an end; do you not know that? After lighting the candle, you know it is coming to an end?

**Questioner** : Yes it will come to an end.

**Dadashri** : How do you know that it will come to an end?

**Questioner** : It gradually begins to decrease.

**Dadashri** : It gradually becomes lesser and lesser and therefore it will come to an end. Similarly, this _ayushya_ (life span) what it was at a young age, slowly begins to wrinkle away, it is headed towards coming to an end. That is _ayushyakarma_.

Now what is called _dravyakarma_? _Ayushyakarma_ that is in this body, it is called _dravyakarma_. It does not let all these karma go away before their time. All these karma have to be suffered. That is _ayushyakarma_ (life-span-determining karma). It will keep one bound in this way within the body for certain number of years. It will not let you become free even if you want to. It is a kind of a prison. Even that keeps us bound, you will not become free from it. You will become free when the time is right, that is called _ayushyakarma_. It will not let you off, even if you have attained _kevalGnan_.

**Questioner** : After attaining _kevalGnan_ (absolute Knowledge), can one retain the body for a while?

**Dfadashri** : It will remain fine. Where will it go? It will become free when the _ayushyakarma_ is over. Lord Mahavir attained _kevalGnan_ at the age of about forty-two years. He lived till he was seventy-two. So he lived to complete thirty more years of his _ayushyakarma_. There is no choice, is there? It will not let you go, will it? It is a kind of bondage. Why would we have intent of increasing the _ayushya_ (life span). It is for the salvation of the world. For all of ypu, it is not for worldly pleasures, it is for the salvation of others and yours.

##  The Body Dies, not You

What does _ayushyakarma_ do? 'You' as the Self are immortal. Still, you have this awareness that 'I am Chandubhai', there exists _murchhit bhaav_ ( illusory view ), and so you feel that 'I will die'. You the Self is not going to die, it is immortal, but you are not aware of it. Therefore, you believe 'I am' in that which dies. Whole world believes that, and you believe that too. All the ascetics believe that, and their _acharyas_ (head teachers) believe that they are going to die. How are you going to die, you mortal? The body will die. The one whose is going to be taken to the funeral will die. He will say, 'No, I am going to die, doctor please save me.' Hey you, the doctor's sister died, and his father died, how is he going to save you? Did the doctor's sister not die? So that is _ayushyakarma_.

##  Long or Short Life Based on Merit Karma

Some die at the age of fifty, some at the age of thirty and some at the age of ninety. Life can be long, it can be short; they are all _dravyakarma_.

There have to be many kinds of merit karma ( _punyai_ ) for one to have a long _ayushyakarma_ ; otherwise _ayushyakarma_ will be short if _punyai_ is lacking. What do some people say? Those who are needed here, thety are needed there (in the world after death) also. This is what they say.

That is life span. A _punyashadi's_ (one with merit karma) life span is long. If there is less _punyai_ , his life will be broken in the middle. Now if one is very _paapi_ (carries out hurtful deeds), and he has a long life, you will say, 'Wow! A long life for him?' If you ask the Lord what is considered good about the _ayushya_ of a _paapi_ (one with sinful deeds)? He will tell you that less he lives, the better it is, because he is in such circumstances of sinful deeds ( _paap_ ); those circumstances will change if he lives less. He will not live shorter, will he? 'We' are saying this to give you some level. He may even complete a hundred years, and he will collect demerit karma, only he knows how deep they go. And it is much better if a _punyashadi_ lives longer.

##  Will Power is a Karma Effect

**Questioner** : Dada, does willpower work in one's life-span ( _ayushya_ )?

**Dadashri** : No, willpower adjusts with karma. Karma is not under the control of willpower. Willpower is under the control of karma. People say they have willpower. Hey, but your willpower is under the control of karma. So it is not under your control. Control of one life is gone; you can change it for the next life.

##  Death is the Final Balance of all Karma

**Questioner** : Is place and time of death decided?

**Dadashri** : It will not happen without being decided. The main thing that is decided is the time, and whatever place is there at that time, that is the decided place.

**Questioner** : Who decides all this?

**Dadashri** : No one decides that, it is not under anyone's control. This is an effect of karma. Effect cannot be decided. Is there anything to be decided in the result?

**Questioner** : So, is it decided based on our past karma?

**Dadashri** : A balance of all your karma is extracted.

**Questioner** : Can one tell how many _dravyakarma_ of the body remain to be suffered?

**Dadashri** : Whatever black hair you have lost, they will not come back again. They have all been suffered ( _bhogvai_ ). Now the white hair remain, they will go away when you have finished suffering them. These teeth have been gradually suffered, you finish suffering the eyes, you finish suffering the ears. Everything is finished suffering. One slowly suffers the body, and then the skin will sag, this way the 'candle' will get used up.

##  Lifespan Depends on Number of Breaths

This _ayushya_ (life span) is not based on number of years. It is based on number of breaths, inhaling-exhaling. People have calculated the number of years from the number of breaths an average person takes. When one misuses the breaths, one's breathing increases and uses up more breaths when he is stealing, or when he is doing something immoral like illicit sex. Here, (in matters of sexuality) if fewer breaths are used up, one lives longer.

**Questioner** : One is born with a fixed lifespan which he is bound before he is born, is he not? Then if lifespan becomes like this, then the principle of binding of karma from past life is thrown out, no?

**Dadashri** : No, that is why lifespan is not bound by number of years; it is the law of number of breaths. What did these mathematicians discover? There are this many millions, this many billions of breaths of which this is the lifespan; a healthy individual uses this many breaths per day. A healthy person, neither above nor below normal one, uses this many breaths per day, and based on that they calculated so many years of lifespan. So lifespan in the form of breaths has been decided. To 'fracture' (use up) the breaths is under one's control, so the years do increase or decrease. By doing activity that use up more breaths, years become less. And one can live longer by doing that which uses less breaths.

**Questioner** : You said that the measure of one's life span is dependent on the breaths, so can one increase or decrease the number of breaths per minute?

**Dadashri** : Yes, greatest numbers of breaths are used up in adulterous sex. Just one adulterous sex encounter reduces one's lifespan by a year.

From the second one thinks about aldulterous sex and all the circumstances come together, inner restlessness starts, the reel of lifespan begins to unwind quickly. Secondly even sex with one's own spouse will use up more breaths. Thirdly, anger uses up a lot and against that if one becomes _nirvishayi_ (free from sexuality), or that is he has only limited sex with only his wife, he does not become angry, he is calm by nature, then his life span will 'increase'. Greed ( _lobha_ ) does not lower one's life span; it increases it. A greedy person is less _vishayi_ (sexual). For him, any talk about money, his ears go up.

Lifespan does not change. The years may increase or decrease. Lifespan is dependent on the number of breaths.

##  Lifespan of Good People

If one has good _upyoga_ (good use vision or awakened awareness) and he lives long, he can do wonders. That is considered a high quality life.

**Questioner** : I have heard that good people die sooner than the bad people. The sinful people live a lot longer to carryout bad deeds, is that true?

**Dadashri** : That is not true. One whose lifespan is short, he will die soon. Whose lifespan is short? One who has bound bad deed karma. One who has carried out good deeds ( _punyai_ ) in the past life, his life is longer. What happens when everyone is trying hard to live longer!

**Questioner** : But _sants_ (saints) are of a very high state, and yet why is their life short?

**Dadashri** : It is because of the deeds (karma) done in the past life.

**Questioner** : So then how was their life so high and good?

**Dadashri** : There is _punyai_ (merit karma) on one side, and there is also _paap_ (demerit) karma on the other side. _Ayushyakarma_ (life-span determining karma) is bound in the past life, which one suffers it. It continues to discharge.

##  Punyai of the World is not Ready, Therefore Gnani's Life is Short

**Questioner** : Why Krupadudev's lifespan was only thirty years? Should it not be long of such a _Purush_ (enlightened person)?

**Dadashri** : Based on this current time era, these _ayushyakarma_ are very short. There is much adverse influence of this era, and therefore necessary lifespan is not there, the rest of the _punyai_ is the _prakruti_. It ( _punyai_ ) becomes distributed into other things, and thus less in the lifespan. Krupadudev (Shrimad Rajchandra 1867-1901) is considered a _Gnani_ _Purush_.

And the other thing is that people's _punyai_ is not ready. When there is an occasion of the two coming together, that is when this will happen, it is when the _punyai_ is ready. _Gnani_ _Purush_ is not concerned about living or dying. _Gnani_ _Purush_ Krapudev is one of the great _Purush_. The rest are not considered _Gnani_ _Purush._ The rest are considered _shastragnanis_ (knower of scriptures), and he is an _Atmagnani_ (Knower of the Self). He does not think about living-dying.

##  Dada's Lifespan

All our four karma ( _dravyakarma_ ) are of high level. They are considered very high. See, I lived seventy-eight years, have I not? This is the proof. 'We' will see when more happen. But this is exact seventy-eight years, is it not? No one can reduce that, or can they? In this current era, living anymore above fifty years is a bonus. Doctors say that I will live still ten-fifteen more years. And these people ( _Mahatmas_ ) say even more, do they not?

##  Now the Lifespan of People Have Increased

**Questioner** : One lady has been unconscious for two months; she is in coma. Now, she is still alive because her _ayushyakarma_ still remains this much, she is still breathing, but her _dravyakarma_ is not left at all. She is just comatose; she is in the unconsciouss state only.

**Dadashri** : No; that is why she is suffering the pain ( _vedana_ ). This is a _vedaniya karma_ (pain pleasure karma). _Vedaniya karma_ is there only if _dravyakarma_ (subtle discharge karma of eight categories) is unfolding, is it not? So, she is in _vedaniya karma_ of _dravya karma_. She keeps suffering _vedaniya karma_.

What _buddhi_ are people playing around with? It is decided that one has to go there (die), and not according to the full time necessary. When he is forty-five or fifty years old, what happened? They will say that his heart failed! Otherwise, blood-vessel rupture here (in the brain), do they not? Haemorrhage happens. Before, I used to understand that haemorrhage means that someone hit him with a hammer on head.

There is no telling how one has to live in all this fear. There is no way of increasing one's lifespan, but there are infinite ways of shortening the lifespan, especially greed ( _lobha_ ) and intense insatiable greed ( _lalacha_ ).

**Questioner** : Has lifespan increased as compared to the past?

**Dadashri** : In comparison to the past, if you are talking about a little while ago, like hundred-two hundred years ago, they used to say that lifespan in tha past was long and it has become short now. What people say today is that lifespan was short in the past and it is longer now. So it goes up and down, up and down. It has never gone higher than hundred. After the normal standard, there are some two to five people who reach thae age of one hundred and twenty five years; that is different. Otherwise no one goes beyond a hundred.

**Questioner** : Does lifespan increase or decrease by doing _samadhiyoga_ ( the yoga of relative _samadhi_ )?

**Dadashri** : Yes, _samadhiyoga_ greatly increases one's lifespan, but what do you consider _samadhi_? You should experience _samadhi_ even while remaining in worldly interaction.

One of our _mahatmas_ was very close to dying. He also saw his own death. There is this string of lifespan, is there not? It will not break even when load is placed on it. You need enough load that it does not break, and if you try to place half a pound more, it will break. As there was _Gnan_ with him, he was saved. Energy of the Self presented, and he returned home. In the mind of _aGnani_ (non-Self-realised) he will feel that it is over. Now it is over. He has the awareness that, 'The one who is dying is me' and so it ends.

##  All Eight Karma are Bound Every Moment

**Questioner** : Except for _ayushyakarma_ , all other seven karma are bound every _samaya_ (smallest unit of time), please explain how? Please explain that in your own language?

**Dadashri** : Why just seven karma, all eight including _ayushyakarma_ are bound.

**Questioner** : _Ayushyakarma_ are bound only three times in life, not every _samaya_ , is it?

**Dadashri** : Everything is bound every _samaya_. They have just been given different names. They gave three names to bondage.

**Questioner** : How are they bound? Please explain that more clearly?

**Dadashri** : Along with binding of other karma, _ayushyakarma_ is always bound. _Ayushya_ (lifespan) of karma is also called _ayushaya_. What can you call an end of karma? So everything is called _ayushya_. _Ayushaya_ _karma_ is what is bound.

**Questioner** : Within one life, having bound life of _deva_ (celestial being) does he again bind a life in hell ( _nark_ )?

**Dadashri** : No, that lifespan ( _ayushya_ ) is different. That (celestial, hell) is the effect that has come forth. After two thirds of the life is gone, one third is left. In that one third, many times _ayushya_ is bound (for his next life). After five, seven, ten times is bound, his (current) lifespan comes to end. If he is sixty years old, the first lifespan is bound at age forty, until then it will not be bound. That is the order that was established. It is a good order that has been established. What it is for is that, hey you are forty now so why don't you straighten out, become wise? Otherwise you will end up in an animal life form. So then he spends his next tweny years well. That is why this has been written, and it is true. It is not something that has been made up. The talk of the _Tirthankaras_ is correct. You have been cautioned that, until now you have been irresponsible in your _moha_ (illusory attachment), and now become wise. Nonetheless, _ayushyakarma_ is being bound continuoously.

##  Principle of Binding Ayushya

**Questioner** : Is next birth decided only after lifespan has been bound in this life?

**Dadashri** : This is how lifespan is bound. Suppose a man's lifespan is of eighty-one years. He is going to live eighty-one years. So according to opinion of the _vitarags_ , no matter what positive or negative he does in his first fifty-four years of his life, he is not held responsible. Anything he has done, it will be accepted. But if he straightens out for the last twenty-seven years, his work will be fine. It is because most part of his karma deposit for his next life comes from the last twenty-four years. Everything else prior to that goes away.

So after fifty-four years, the first thing is that he should become aware, that it is now time for the binding of lifespan for the next tlife. At age fifty-four, _ayushya_ (lifespan) will surely be bound. What did he do up until now? A balance sheet (all activities of his) comes when he is fifty-four years old, and sickness or anything else may happen and _ayushya_ will be bound. _Ayushya_ will be bound even if there is no sickness. And first picture is snapped when he is fifty four years old. If one is doing negative deeds in this world, then a snap shot for him as an animal, of water buffalo, of a cow, of a donkey is taken within. That resonates within. Now, first time an _ayushya_ of an animal is bound, because he had done negative acts when he was young, he had done _artadhyan_ (adverse internal meditation that hurts the self)– _raudradhyan_ (adverse internal meditation that hurts the self and others), so this happened at the age of forty-five. _Ayushya_ has also been bound. Now if he dies at that time, he goes into a lower life form. Therefore, after _ayushya_ begins to be bound, there comes a balance sheet of any activity after that. Hence one has to be very aware in his later years. So, what scriptures say is that first forty years of life is gone in ignorance, but maintain good thoughts after forty, otherwise a bad picture will be snapped. It is because, after that _ayushya_ begins to be bound.

Then remains the twenty-seven years; he joins the _satsang_ and he changes. Having comes to _satsang_ for eighteen years, the picture of the donkey becomes erased and a new picture of a king is snapped. So when he is seventy-two years old, a new _ayushya_ is bound. And then for six out of the nine remaining years (from eighty one year life), he does a lot of _satsang_ , a picture is again snapped when he is seventy seventy eight years for a life in the _deva gati_ (life as celestial being), erasing the last picture. Now only three years remain, right? Those cheerful results that used to be there became weak. In the beginning he was very cheerful, and at that time good _ayushya_ is bound, then it becomes weak and when he is eighty year old, again human _ayushya_ is bound.

Now one year remains, the last year. In his eighty years, after eight months, a new _ayushya_ is bound. Now four months are left. That is one hundred twenty days are left. Out of these when forty are left, a new _ayushya_ is bound. From this after twenty-six days a new _ayushya_ is bound. Now thirty-two hours are left, and from that after twenty-two hours a new _ayushya_ bound. Thus, it goes on till last three hours are left. Then after two hours, a new _ayushya_ is bound. Then after forty minutes, a new _ayushya_ is bound. And then after thirteen minutes a new _ayushya_ is bound.

Now, there is only one minute is left, they are lighting a candle ( _divo_ ) over there. But there are sixty seconds in a minute. Again, a picture is snapped again after forty seconds. Still twenty seconds remain, so after thirteen seconds another picture is snapped. Thereafter one more is bound and thus comes the end of one's life span of this life. Pictures keep getting snapped. One time it is of human, one time it is of _deva_ , one time it is of a donkey, one time it is of a dog, pictures keep changing, and the final one is the one that counts. The day before one dies, lots of pictures are snapped, but they are all the ones that that do not matter; what matters is the final one that is snapped. This is how scientific it is. It is exactly correct.

##  Ayushya of one With Matrubhaav is Longer

**Questioner** : Dada, what kinds of inner intents ( _bhaavs_ ) there are for _ayushyakarma_ so that it can be longer? What kind of karma there are that make _ayushya_ longer or shorter?

**Dadashri** : For _ayushyakarma_ , if _matrubhaav_ are less then _ayushyakarma_ will be less. Matrubhaav is needed for everything. _Matrubhaav means_ one cannot see other person hurting, so he will run to his aid.

**Questioner** : Do men also have this _matrubhaav_ (known as _vatsalya bhaav_ ) towards their children?

**Dadashri** : Yes, of-course, a lot.

**Questioner** : And greater the _vatsalya bhaav_ there is, is there a longer _ayushya_ in the next life?

**Dadashri** : Yes.

**Questioner** : But this _ayushyakarma_ , what is it decided from?

**Dadashri** : Whatever harm you cause to any living being's _ayushya_ , you are actually causing harm to your own _ayushya_.

**Questioner** : So then a butcher should die after short life, but he lives a lot longer.

**Dadashri** : A butucher is not guilty at all. That is his family business. Guilty is the one who eats that meat.

**Questioner** : But what I believe is that _ayushya_ happens according to _roonnanubandh_ (account of karma of past life). When the account with one family is over, so _maya_ (illusory attachment) leaves from there.

**Dadashri** : That is as clear as light. Account of karma ( _roonanubandha_ ) of _ayushya_ means that however much pain you cause to others; that much _ayushya_ becomes shorter, and it becomes longer if you give happiness to everyone. Then karma accounts are bound like that. It appears as an account of karma externally, but subtly it is a different thing.

*****

#  [2.10]

#  Ghati-Aghati Karma

##  Dravyakarma is Constantly Dissolving

What is this body? What is it made of? It is a baggage of eight karma. And in a candle there are four karma; and these are eight karma. What are the karma in a candle? One is the wick, a wick that burns. Then what burns the wick is wax. The third, it itself can burn down and come to an end. That is how one has brought _ayushya_ (life span karma) with him. This candle had brought its _ayushya_ with it. So a wick, a light, wax, and _ayushya_. It has four and our's are eight. It does not have _ghati karma_ (destructible karma). It has _aghati_ and we have _aghati karma_ (indestructible karma), four of them. It will have _ghati karma_ if it was alive. _Gnanavaran_ (knowledge obscuring), _Darshanavaran_ (Vision obscuring), _mohaniya_ (illusion producing), _antaraya_ (obstructing producing) they are all _ghati_ _karma_. So they keep killing the Self.

This is a very good example of the candle that has been given. It has never been given in any scripture up until now. This is the first time it has come out.

_Dravykarma_ is the candle, and this candle in the form of _dravyakarma_ ( _Gnanavaran, Darshanavaran, mohaniya, antarya, vedaniya_ , _naam_ , _gotra_ , and _ayushya,_ ) keeps burning continuously. No one has to do anything in it, does one? Candle, on its own, burns naturally. It has begun to burn from the second one was born. So you will not have to burn it. It will gradually burn down and come to an end. So _ayushyakarma_ will be exhausted and come to an end. So all the eight _dravya karma_ will dissolve and he will take with him to his next life the new bound _dravyakarma_.

**Questioner** : But _dravyakarma_ depends on _udayadhin_ (unfolding karma), does it not?

**Dadashri** : It is _udayadhin_. _Dravyakarma_ keeps dissolving according to the unfolding of karma day by day, it is exhausting. _Dravyakarma_ is exhausting constantly, and one day it will be exhausted.

**Questioner** : _Prakruti_ that is already vowen, will it take much longer for its _dravykarma_ to exhaust?

**Dadashri** : It will exhaust in time. It is connected to its time. It will exhaust even when one is asleep or awake.

##  Ghati in the of a Veil and Aghati in the form of Body

These eight karma, they are all _dravyakarma_. Four are _ghati karma_ (destructible, veil can be removed), and four are _aghati karma_ (indestructible, to be suffered) which the body has to suffer. Eyeglasses arise based on these _dravyakarma_. Now 'we' have removed that basis, otherwise when will it end? Otherwise those glasses will never end even after having wandered in all the life forms.

Colored glasses and the body are two different things. 'We' remove those colored glasses when we give you the _Gnan_ , but you cannot get rid of the karma that body has to suffer, one has no choice but to suffer them. _Nokarma_ that arise from this have to be suffered, there is no choice.

**Questioner** : What does it mean that these four karma 'kill' ( _ghaat_ ) the Self?

**Dadashri** : First is the _Gnanavaran_ , then the _Darshanavaran_ , then the _mohaniya_ and _antaraya_. These are considered _ghati karma_. As long as these four karma are there, they are 'killing' the Self. This means a veil ( _avaran_ ) keeps coming over the Self. And the other four are _aghati_ _karma_. _Aghati_ means that they do not create a veil over the Self. And so if you do not become _tanmayakar_ (become the body-mind form, engrossed) in them, they will discharge and come to an end. Lord Mahavir had these _aghati karma_ even after he attained _kevalGnan_. He cleared only the four _ghati karma_. Those _aghati_ will remain, will they not? Hence, _vedaniya_ - _naam_ - _gotra_ - _ayushya_ ; these four are considered _aghati karma_. For everyone these remain even after _kevalGnan_ (absolute Knowledge). Even if they remain they do not harm the Self.

**Questioner** : So only these four have to be settled ( _khapavavoo_ )?

**Dadashri** : Yes, the other four will discharge on their own.

When _shata vedaniya_ (pleasure effect) comes, go to sleep peacefully. If _ashata vedaniya_ (pain effect) comes, do not hurt others.

##  Only Ghati Karma Remain to be Settled

**Questioner** : This _ayushya_ , _vedaniya_ , _gotra_ and _naam_ karma they are seen to be touching the body. They are clearly seen to be related to the body. That _Gnanavaran_ , _Darshanavaran_ ...

**Dadashri** : They too are related to the body, but in the form of 'eyeglasses'. Otherwise they have all arisen from _dravykarma_ indeed. If these _ghati_ go away, then there is no problem with the _aghati_. _Aghati_ will remain as long as there is the body, so there is no problem even if one receives _upyasha_ (defame; disgrace). The real question is, has the _Gnanavaraniya_ gone? One will say, yes it has. So then, what about the _upyash_ that people give you? Let it be. It will last as long as there is the body. It will receive _yash_ (fame, praise) as well as _upyash_.

**Querstioner** : Can the _Gnanavaran_ _karma_ that is a joined with the body leave even when there is a body? _Gnanavaran_ - _Darshanavaran_ both?

**Dadashri** : They are always with it. They are all mixed in this body. But all those four _ghati karma_ can be destroyed, _aghati karma_ cannot be destroyed.

_Darshanavaraniya_ goes away after attaining the _Gnan_ , _mohaniya_ is gone, everything is gone. _Antaraya_ and _Gnanavaran_ karma are not gone. These four are killing the Self ( _Atmaghati_ ). They are called _ghati karma_. In those _ghati karma_ , veils (of ignorance) will be destroyed as you settle the two ( _Gnanavaran_ and _antaraya_ ) with equanimity, and thus obstacles will be destroyed.

And those other four ( _vedaniya, naam, gotra, ayushya_ ) that are bound, they are discharging, all they do is give rise to pain-pleasure ( _shata-ashata vedaniya_ ), right till the end. Even Lord Mahavir suffered both, _shata_ and _ashata vedaniya_ right till he attained _nirvana_ (Liberation; ultimate state of liberation from the round of births).

**Questioner** : Scriptures say that _kevalGnani_ does not have _ashata_.

**Dadashri** : They will have _shata-ashata vedaniya_ . His _shata-ashata_ is not like that, it is not solid like that; it is very subtle. Still people did stick wooden nails in his ears, did they not? At that time tremendous _ashata_ arose.

**Questioner** : Did they torture the Lord with the wooden nails before or after he attained _kevalGnan_?

**Dadashri** : It was before _kevalGnan_. After that. he went through a lot of _ashatavedaniya,_ including exposure to a lot of bedbugs etc. That is why the _devas_ (celestial beings) called him _Mahavir_ (the Grat One). Tremendous _ashata vedaniya_.

##  Dravyakarma of Tirthankaras

**Questioner** : Dada, what are _ghati-aghati_ karma of the _Thithankaras_ like?

**Dadashri** : The too have four _aghati_ karma and they are different for each _Tirthankara_. _Vedaniya_ , _naamrupa_ , _ayushya_ , are different for all, and _Gnanavaran_ , _Darshanavaran_ , _mohaniya_ and _antaraya_ , all four are destroyed equally for all _Tirthankaras_ ; it is called _kevalGnan_ only if they are equally destroyed, until then it is not considered _kevalGnan_. It is considered _kevalGnan_ , only when all four are the same for all of them.

Some are dark in color. Some are white, some are gold in color, they consider our color as gold. It is not exactly like the gold. So these are of all kinds of colors, there is difference in them. Then there is difference in height; tall and short. Yes, they are all good looking, but they all have different shapes. Now, the shape cannot actually be considered true beauty. But they all look the same, beautiful, why is that? Their beauty ( _laavanya_ ) is the same, but they do not have the same shape. They are very different in the shapes of their limbs and distal parts, but their beauty is the same. Some are tall, some are fat, some are thin. Mallinath (the only female of the past twenty-four _Tirthankara_ ) was beautiful, she was _dehakarmi_ ( body _naam karma_ that was beautiful). Without being a _dehakarmi_ , can one appear beautiful with any make up? No. She is considered a _tirthankar_.

There is a difference in the _vedaniya_ of _Tirthankaras_. Lord Mahavir faced many pains ( _ashata_ ), whereas other _Tirthankars_ had little. Others had lots of pleasures ( _shata_ ). Some _Tirthankara_ 's _vedaniya_ _karma_ is bound of _shata_ _vedaniya_ (pleasure producing karma), and some _Tirthankara_ 's _naamrupa_ _karma_ is bound of _ashata_ _vedaniya_ (pain producing karma).

**Questioner** : That is based on _punyai_ , is it not?

**Dadashri** : That is it; it is all _punyai_. That all comes into it. Just hearing about some _Tirthankara_ _naamkarm_ a people are awed, and hearing about some other one, people turn their heads and walk away. There are all kinds of these. Some become worshipped in any community, but not all over India. And some are are worshipped only in certain communities. Some's _ayushya_ (life span) is short, some's is long; there are these differences.

##  When all Knowledge Arises Within, The Gnanipada is Attained

When one attains any responsible status, there are calculations taking into account, then only he can attain it, otherwise he cannot. What calculations are they? I am talking about the main attribute, that who comes onto the responsible post?

_Naamkarma_ is high from birth. It is _aadeya_ _naamkarma_. Even if one is young, people will say, 'Welcome son, welcome son', and they say that even when he is older. That is _aadeya_ _naamkarma_ , his whole life. Then he has _yashnaam karma_. Mere touch of his hand will get other person's work done. So he has many kinds of _naamkarma_ then he has good _ang-upang karma_ (limbs and distal parts). He does not have unattractive limbs and body parts. The hands, fingers, ears, head all areare proportionate and attractive. He has a beautiful form.

What else does he have? He has _lokapujya gotra_ (worshipped and respected by people). He has come with a good _ayushyakarma_. And he has come with _vedaniya karma_ that has the least _ashata vedaniya_. Look. My leg fractured but 'we' have not experienced _ashata vedaniya_ at all. So when you have all such multiplications then you attain such state. I have not become this on my own.

So, 'our' _shata vedaniya_ is considered good, in this current era. 'We' have come will all the karmic account effect. Dada has come with those four karma like _Tirthankaras_ ( _aghati karma_ ); and these other four karma ( _ghati_ ) turned out to be weak due to the current time era. Because of that weakness, 'we' sit here with all these people. Look, 'we' go for a snack, do 'we' not? Otherwise, who wold do that? Had 'we' been complete, you would not have had chance to share 'us'. So remaining incomplete was a good thing.

Dada is not at loss at all. Dada's desire is that may this world attain the right _Gnan_ and the right path and peace. May some attain _moksha_ , some attain peace, some attain the path of the _vitarag_ , and some attain the right religion; that is the only desire of Dada. He does not desire anything else. This is all for this desire. Even _Tirthankaras_ desire the same.

**Questioner** : At this age, energies should decline, and therefore people are amazed that Dada can do such a wonderful work, at the age of seventy-eight, he can do so much work. Is there not energies of _devas_ (celestials) behind that?

**Dadashri** : Of-course, there is their grace. Even that is dependent on the unfolding of karma. Such _nimit_ had been arranged, nothing new. _Yashnaam_ _karma_ (fame bearing karma) is in the form of other karma. _Naamkarma_ is very high. _Lokapujya gotra_ too, are considered very high. When the _ayushya_ becomes seventy-eight, it is high.

**Questioner** : Thousands of people keep remembering, this fame spreads, that itself is _naamkarma_ , is it not?

**Dadashri** : _Naamkarma_ is not spreading of fame. Spreading of fame is the fruit of today's karma. And that fruit that _naamkarma_ gives is different, so you will receive respect wherever you go.

So, this is 'Dada Bhagwan's' work and I keep getting the fruit of fame ( _yash_ ). 'He' does not want the fame and _yashnaam karma_ is 'mine'.

**Questioner** : What fame does 'Dada Bhagwaan' need, he is _nirleyp_ (absolutely unaffected; nothing can smear it), is he not?

**Dadashri** : 'He' does not have any of the eight karma at all. They are all mine. _Gnanavaran, Darshanavaran, mohaniya, antaraya, naam, gotra, vedaniya, ayushya_ , the eigh karma are 'mine'.

**Questioner** : 'Mine' means whose?

**Dadashri** : This ' _Gnani_ _Purush_ 's' off-course.

If you take into account, then is it _Gnanavaran_? No, there is only a little, only about four degrees worth. There is absolutely no _Darshanavaran_ , absolutely no _mohaniya_ , no _antaraya_ of any kind. What does _antaraya_ mean? It means that you do not get what you desire.

They will ask, 'Why does Dada not have as many diamonds as that _saint_?' I tell them that Dada does not have such desire, does he? If I have a desire and it is not fulfilled, then it is considered an obstacle ( _antaraya_ ). I do not have any desire at all. _Darshanavaran_ , _mohaniya_ , _antaraya_ are nonexistent. Then _vedaniya_ , especially _ashata_ _vedaniya_ , I very rarely have one. Otherwise, I do not have any _ashata vedaniya_. Even that is minimal. Then there is very good _naamkarma_ , _gotrakarma_ is good too; _ayushya_ is also good. In every way they are good , all the eight karma are high level.

What is _kevalGnan_? All the four _ghati karma_ have stopped, that is called _kevalGnan_. And those that are considered _aghati karma_ are the ones that are bound. _Aghati karma_ , even God does not have any choice in it, does he? You have such _aghati karma_ , and he has them too. But his _aghati karma_ differ, in that he settled them as he went, whereas yours are unsettled _aghati karma_. But both are considered _aghati karma_. One has a debt of hundred and someone has a debt of a million, but both are considered a debt. The other person has to pay a rupee at a time; he has to pay a thousand at a time, because the number (debt) is larger.

Still, all those karma have to be settled. To settle means to settle them with equanimity, right? We will have to give up the boxes of the karmic stock we have brought with us. These boxes belong to someone else (non-Self). Will you not have to give them away? Give them away quickly, Tell them to take their things to their home.

**Questioner** : But the discharge karma that are there, still remain, do they not?

**Dadashri** : Discharge means the effect of the four _ghatikarma_ ( _Gnanavaran, Darshanavaran, mohaniya_ and _antarya_ ). And the cause is _ghatikarma._ So, the cause has stopped now. The remaining _aghatikarma_ is the result of the four _ghati karma_ (of past life). It is because there was a cause, effect occurred. Now the cause is gone, so the effect will give its fruit and leave. Then one continuously suffers the _vedaniyakarma_. He continuously suffers _naamkarma_ , continuously suffers _gotrakarma_ , continuously suffers _ayushyakarma_ (until _nirvana-_ final liberation).

**Questioner** : _Ayushya_ , _vedaniya_ , _naamrupa_ , _gotra_ , they all have to be suffered, whether one attains _Gnan_ or not.

**Dadashri** : That is correct, one has to suffer them whether he has attained _Gnan_ or not. However, the one who has the _Gnan_ , he has to suffer them without being affected by them; and the other one has to suffer them through touching them, but they both have to suffer them. So then however much he touches them; that much he has to suffer them. If he remains the Knower-Seer, then he does not suffer. Whatever awareness one maintains there, he benefits that much.

##  Ghatikarma Destroyed with Shukladhyan

**Questioner** : Infinite _Gnan_ , infinite _darshan_ , infinite bliss, infinite energy – is it because these four attributes of the Self are obstructed that they are called four _ghatikarma_. It is because they are killing the attributes of the Self. That is why they are powerful.

**Dadashri** : You should not deduce too much from the words. When there is a fight between the two, this one wins. We do not mean power in that sense. When a cloud comes and covers the sun, does that mean that the cloud is powerful? But seems like its power, does it not? It is not powerful. It will not gain anything if it fought with the sun The Self is the owner of infinite energy. It can kick everything away, but it does not do that. Yes, if one uses extra energy, then he can do anything.

**Questioner** : If one becomes absorbed, become one in the _dhyan_ (meditation) of _Shuddha Chidrupa_ (the pure Self), it is the greatest of all _shukladhyan_. _Dhyan agni_ (fire of meditation as the Self)is considered so powerful that it burns down all the _ghatikarma_.

**Dadashri** : Yes, all of you have been given the fire of _Gnan_ ( _Gnan-agni_ ), right! _Shukladhyan_ (meditating as the Self) that You have been given destroys all your _ghatikarma_.

**Questioner** : Yes it destroys _ghatikarma_ if one comes into the _dhyan_ as the Self ( _Shuddha Chidrupa_ ).

**Dadashri** : You have indeed been given _shukladhyan_. All of You are in _shukladhyan_ , and _shukladhyan_ will destroy all _ghatikarma_.

**Questioner** : That is why these four karma are considered powerful, are they not? This _shukladhyan_ will destroy the _ghatikarma._

**Dadashri** : If we do not write that, then people will think, 'We will get rid of them in no time with just one stroke.' We have to write this in worldly interaction.

**Questioner** : Pure Self ( _Shuddha Chidrupa_ ) can destroy _ghatikarma_ with its _shukladhyan_ ; now what is the process of destroying it? For example, this heat of the sun kills infinite bacterias. That happens with its heat. Similarly, these _aghati karma_ must get destroyed with the heat, with light of pure Self, right? Is that how it is, or what is it?

**Dadashri** : It is not like that. _Ajagruti_ (lack of awareness) arose because of the effect of extra intent ( _vishesha_ bhaav). The extra intent arose because of the lack of awareness of the Self. Why did it happen? It is because of presence; close proximity of these. Just as say there is a businessman; what happens when he drinks this much whisky? Then he completely looses his awareness, and another awareness arises, 'I am Excellency Gaekwaad.' He will say something different. So there is the intoxication of that alcohol. Such is this intoxication of ignorance.

**Questioner** : Because all these four _, Gnanavaran, Darshanavaran, mohaniya, antaraya_ , are the cause of the ignorance ( _aGnanta_ ).

**Dadashri** : No, this _avaran_ (veil) came from that very ignorance of the Self, and that _avaran_ becomes destroyed with awareness of the Self.

Lord Mahavir had discharge karma too. He attained _kevalGnan_ when his four _ghatikarma_ were destroyed. _Atmagnan_ is attained when some components of _ghatikarma_ are destroyed. When they are completely destroyed, _kevalGnan_ is attained, yet those four _aghati karma_ are still there.

##  Moha is the Main Root

**Questioner** : Is there a relation between wrong belief and four _ghatikarma_?

**Dadashri** : _Darshanavaran karma_ is called wrong belief.

**Questioner** : Wrong belief means _Darshanavaran_ , so then is there anything for _Gnanavaran_?

**Dadashri** : _Darshanavaran_ gives rise to _Gnanavaran_.

**Questioner** : What is actually in the _Darshanavaran_. Is the _Darshan_ of the main thing (the Self) veiled?

**Dadashri** : _Darshan_ is veiled, and therefore the wrong belief has occurred. Where there was a right belief, wrong belief has set in.

**Questioner** : It is also that _Darshan_ continues to be veiled with the wrong belief, does it not?

**Dadashri** : Veil continues to increase thereafter.

**Questioner** : Is there a link to all the four karma, _dDarshanavaran_ _karma_ , _Gnanavaran_ _karma_ , _mohaniya_ and _antaraya_? Is there any connection with each other?

**Dadashri** : They are all through connection. It is all one. It has been given separately to others to help them understand.

**Questioner** : How is that? How is its connection?

**Dadashri** : This is all _mohaniya_ (original _moha_ ). All the eight karma happen because of _mohaniya_ (original _moha_ ). Everything is in the _mohaniya_ , so just one would suffice for that.

**Questioner** : What is the connection of this?

**Dadashri** : From all these, first comes _mohaniya_. Everything comes into _mohaniya_. Whole thing has arisen from _mohaniya_. _Mohaniya_ means not to see gold as gold, and see it as something else. Therefore, not to see the Self as the Self, so one sees it differently from what it is.

**Questioner** : _Gnanavaran_ - _Darshanavaran_ and four _kashayas_ , they have a connection, do they not?

**Dadashri** : These indeed are the _kashayas_. To explain them more, explain them further, they have been given names. What else? Anger-pride, they are all sons of _moha_ (original illusion). That is why 'we' cut _Darshanmoha_ (in the _Gnan Vidhi_ ), _charitramoha_ remains, that is all.

**Questioner** : This attribute of _Darshan_ has veiled by that _Darshanavaran_ - _Gnanavaran_. Attribute of the _Gnan_ is veiled, and infinite bliss is veiled. Veiling of attributes and _avarans_ (veils), how is all that?

**Dadashri** : All these eight karma, they are in the form of _mohaniya_ (original _moha_ ). As _mohaniya_ leaves, everything leaves.

**Questioner** : Is it because of karma that attributes of the Self have been veiled?

**Dadashri** : Yes, all of them have been veiled.

**Questioner** : So as the _mohaniya_ is destroyed, _Darshan_ _moha_ is destroyed, attributes begin to manifest.

**Dadashri** : Attributes begin to manifest. When completely manifest, that is called _kevalGnan_.

##  Karma Bound Verily Through Kashaya

**Questioner** : What is the relation between all the four _ghati karma_ and _kashayas_? Are _ghati karma_ bound because of _kashayas_ , or are _kashayas_ there because of the _ghati karma_?

**Dadashri** : What is happening to us right now? _Kashayas_ arise because of _ghati karma_. Now, if you realize who You really are, then the _kashaya_ can be pushed away.

**Questioner** : Can they be pushed away, or do they move away (on their own)?

**Dadashri** : They move away. Now, when _kashaya_ move away, You do not bind _ghatikarma_ , You will not bind either _ghati_ or _aghati_ karma.

##  Ekavtari State Through Akram Gnan

**Questioner** : How can one destroy four _ghati_ karma? How can one become free from them?

**Dadashri** : You have become free, so what else do You have to ask. You have four _aghati karma_ remaining. _Ghati_ karma are gone. Fraction of _ghati_ karma that are there, they are just for one life. _Ghati karma_ that you had, they remain for just one life. Why are you asking this even when You are free from them? Yes, _aghati_ are not gone. Those that do not cause any harm to the Self, they will leave on their own.

**Questioner:** _Ghati karma_ will not leave completely, will they, Dada? This is because if they all leave completely, then _kevalGnan_ will happen.

**Dadashri:** Yes, _kevalGnan_ will happen. So therefore, we have been freed from all the rest (of _ghatikarma_ ) and thus one more life time ( _ekavatar_ ) is left. It is because they have left that _nirakudata_ (state beyond ease and unease) remains within, otherwise how can it remain! Residual _ghati karma_ remain for one more life time. Can we say no to the one who wants four more life times? If one follows what I have instructed, then there will not be a second life after the next one.

##  All that Remains now is Charitramoha

**Questioner** : How does one know that _Gnanavaran_ karma is gone, _Darshanavaran_ karma is gone?

**Dadashri** : When you have all the _sooj_ (intuition; insight) then realise that all your _Darshanavaran_ is gone. Puzzles do not arise anymore do they? If they do, then they dissolve on their own, do they not?

**Questioner** : Yes.

**Dadashri** : Therefore, entire _Darshanavaran_ is gone. Certain fraction of _Gnanavaran_ still remains. Entire _mohaniya_ is gone. That is why the worries have stopped. Then _charitra_ _mohaniya_ (illusion in discharge only) remains.

We are not interested even when one says, 'Welcome sir, welcome sir'. The interest we had before, is all gone. Or, we are not interested when they insult us. What _lokanindya_ _gotra_ do? We are not interested in the _lokaninda_ (defame by others) they do. _Loakpujya gotra_ (famed by others), we are not interested even people keep praising us. All the interests have left on their own, have they not?

**Questioner** : Yes all the interests are gone.

**Dadashri** : So now speak, what do you have interest in? Is it in _lokapujya_ _gotra_ (people respecting and praising you)? No?

Whatever one has understood through intellect,is what is written in the books, and the writer wrote in the book according to what he understood. However, whatever is written, it is not so in the path of _moksha_. One will find a completely different _Gnan_ instead.

##  Only Dravyakarma That Remains is of the Body

**Questioner** : We say in the _Gnan Vidhi_ that, 'I am pure Soul free from _dravyakarma_ '; with what view are we saying this?

**Dadashri** : From the viewpoint as the Self (real).

**Questioner** : With respect to the Real; but as long as we have a body, four _aghati_ _dravyakarma_ still remain. Will _dravykarma_ remain right till the end?

**Dadashri** : But they remain with Chandubhai as discharege.

**Questioner** : And will _dravyakarma_ remain right till one attains _moksha_?

**Dadashri** : Yes.

**Questioner** : We understood that all the karma go away after attaining the _Gnan_. But the four _ghatikarma_ go away in every way, do they not?

**Dadashri** : No, they do not go away completely; some do remain. Enough for one or two lives more.

**Questioner** : And do four _aghati karma_ remain right till the end?

**Dadashri** : They will remain as long as there is a body.

##  That is When Gnan is Attained

**Questioner** : How is _Gnan_ attained?

**Dadashri** : Everything comes together when you have _Yashnaam karma_.

**Questioner** : Just _yashnaam_ karma alone?

**Dadashri** : There are other things too, are there not? Other things come within.

**Questioner** : Which other things come together?

**Dadashri** : _Gnanavaran_ goes away, _Darshanavaran_ goes away. _Mohaniya_ goes away, and this (the Gnani Purush) come together, that is when _Gnan_ is attained. However, people cannot become free from _Darshanavaran_ , _mohaniya_ and _antaraya_ karma. These four will not leave. Those others are bound. _Shata_ _vedaniya_ karma is bound, higher _naamkarma_ is bound, _gotra_ karma is bound, long _ayushya_ karma is bound, but those other four ( _Gnanavaran, Darshanavaran, mohaniya, antaraya_ ) will not leave. _Antaraya_ will not leave, even _moha_ will not go away for them. When _moha_ for the worldly life leaves it gets stuck here (in religious matters) .

##  Dada Gives Complete Solution

**Questioner** : When _ghatikarma_ goes away, only then does the first _moksha_ , causal _moksha_ , happens. And when _aghati karma_ also goes away, the final _moksha_ happens, at the time of _nirvana_.

There is constant discharging of karma, without inflow (cause) of new karmic matter ( _samvarpurvak ni nirjara_ ), going on from the second _samyak_ _darshan_ (right Vision) happens. People of the world (non-Self-realised) have _bandhapurvak ni nirjara_ (bondage happening during discharge), and this here (in _Akram Vignan_ ) is _samvarpurvak ni nirjara_.

**Questioner:** And is it only possible to become _Siddha_ (final bodyless-karmaless state) after the destruction of these eight karma?

**Dadashri** : Yes, correct. Now, for You, they are all settling ( _nikali_ ) karma. These four karma, we have destroyed in certain proportion, and the other four karma are now being destroyed. It is not worth for you to be concerned about any of this. You are a _Shuddhatma_ , so then whatever Chandubhai is doing, is the _nirjara_ (exact settling in discharge) of all the eight karma.

When one becomes free from the eight karma, _moksha_ happens. However the first _moksha_ will not manifest into conduct right away. First the belief is established. With the _Gnan_ 'we' give You, the (right) belief is established and so _samyak darshan_ happens. But _vitarag charitra_ (conduct absolutely free from attachment and abhorrrence) is not attained immediately. It will take time to manifest into conduct. But if change in the faith ( _shraddha_ ) \- belief happens first, then everything will change. If 'I am Chandubhai' does not change, then when will be a solution?

Such solutions will not be found in the scriptures, and the gurus do not have them. No guru, or anyone else can reach there. Whatever solutions You reach, it is due to _kevalDarshan_ (absolute Vision). It will not reach through opinion or _buddhi_ (intellect). This is solved only because of absence of _buddhi_ , only where there is not an iota of _buddhi_.

**Questioner** : Dada has given the ultimate explanation of _dravya karma_. No one has ever given such explanation, anywhere.

**Dadashri** : Yes, _dravyakarma_ cannot be understood. One's work will be done if he understands _dravyakarma_.

*****

#  [2.11]

#  Bhaavkarma

##  Bhaavkarma Happens as a Result of Dravyakarma

**Questioner:** Now please explain _bhaavkarma_ in detail.

**Dadashri** : If you want to understand _bhaavkarma_ , it is the easiest. To understand the beginning then, 'I am Chandubhai' itself is indeed the first _bhaavkarma_. Then there many as one proceeds from there. On top of that, first bandage of _Gnanavaran_ - _Darshanavaran_ are tied, and so one cannot see as it is, and so he says, 'I am Chandubhai'. This is the first _bhaavkarma_.

Then, because 'eye glasses' have changed, an intent-view ( _bhaav_ ) arises that 'he is my enemy', 'he is my friend'; that is _bhaavkarma_. The eyeglasses are not because of the _bhaav_. _Bhaav_ happens because of the eyeglasses, and this _bhaav_ gives rise to new 'eye glasses', a new _dravyakarma_ for the next life.

The main meaning of _bhaavkarma_ is that it gives rise to _bhaav_ and _abhaav_ , and that is the cause of binding of karma for all the world. _Bhaav_ means attachment ( _raag_ ) and _abhaav_ means abhorrence ( _dwesh_ ). _Abhaav_ means anger and pride, and _bhaav_ means greed and deceit. _Bhaavkarma_ is bound as a consequence of this _bhaav_ - _abhaav_.

**Questioner** : So is it based on like and dislike?

**Dadashri** : That like and dislike comes later. How long is it considered _bhaav_ - _bhaav_? It is as long as it is associated with ego. And _bhaav_ - _bhaav_ without ego is like-dislike. Like-dislike is in the discharge. So, with _bhaav_ - _bhaav_ there is charge. People have either _bhaav_ or they have _abhaav_ , there is no third thing.

##  Kashaya Means Bhaavkarma

'I am Chandulal', 'I am a Vaniya ( _trader_ )', all these are wrong beliefs, all these are _bhaavkarma_ (charge _karma_ ). And becoming 'I am Chandulal'- ego arose therefore anger-pride-deceit-greed arose, and because of this _karma_ are bound. Now in anger-pride-deceit-greed, 'I' and 'my' are incorporated. This is because pride ( _maan_ ) means 'I' is included and greed ( _lobha_ ) means 'my' everything is included. Because of that these _bhaavkarma_ are bound and as _dravyakarma_ – subtle discharge _karma_ (wrong vision in all this) is there currently, this _bhaavkarma_ (charge _karma_ ) happens for us in this world.

Anger happens on someone by itself, does it not? One cannot tolerate if someone insults him and therefore he will get angry. One will get angry to protect his pride, one will get angry to protect his money and that is called _bhaavkarma_.

Now say one goes to a wedding and if the receptionist there welcomes him with much show of respect then will he not become 'tight' automatically or someone has to kick him? He becomes tight without any kicks, does he not? That is called _bhaavkarma_ of pride ( _maan_ ). And if someone did not do ' _jai_ _jai_ ' (gave respect) to him then he cooled down (felt insulted), that is called _bhaavkarma_ of insult ( _upmaan_ ). Will one cool down or not if someone does not acknowledge him?

To 'do' deceit ( _kapat_ ), to 'do' _moha_ (illusory attachment), all that is called _bhaavkarma_. _Maya_ (illusion-ignorance of the Self) means one will 'do' (enter into) deceit. To 'do' deceit to protect money, to protect pride; is also _bhaavkarma_.

One will have enough money for daily sustenance (eating-drinking), but even then greed ( _lobha_ ) will not leave. Greed for earning more money, one has lots of money and household is running very well yet he will worry the whole day for money, so what can you call this? Greed. Again whatever he was supposed to earn in the next life, he exchanged it today. He would withdraw money from the bank (of nature) today, here only and spend (overdraft) it and he will save two _lakhs_ for his son and tell him, 'You spend it, enjoy.' Hey _mooah_ , but what will you do in next life? You unfortunate one! Let it come by itself, naturally. Why did you keep digging needlessly, even if you have this much income? So he ruined that which was coming. So this greed is called _bhaavkarma_.

_Bhaavkarma_ is that which breaks one's steadiness ( _sthirata_ ); it will break one's awareness, all that is _bhaavkarma_. So this anger-pride-deceit-greed, all this would make you lose your awareness. A greedy one will have awareness of greed, all other awareness would have been lost. That is why such a one is called _lobhandha_ (blinded by greed). He will look only for greed and everything else would be blind for him. There is no problem if his daughters were going around but he would be going around for greed only.

Four _kashayas_ are verily _bhaavkarma_. Not anything else.

**Questioner:** Anything that fits in this four components, is that _bhaavkarma_?

**Dadashri:** Yes, that which fits in this four all that are _bhaavkarma_. There is no other _bhaavkarma_ except this.

**Questioner:** When these _parmanus_ of anger-pride-deceit-greed come together in that, then this _bhaavkarma_ arises, does it not?

**Dadashri:** No, anger-pride-deceit-greed;that verily is _bhaavkarma_. That which is evident is verily _bhaavkarma_ , if it is associated with violent intent ( _himsak bhaav_ ). And if there is no violent intent then anger-pride-deceit-greed are not considered _bhaavkarma_. Discharge _bhaav_ (intent) is not called _bhaavkarma_. _Bhaavkarma_ is alive, it is _mishrachetan_ (mixture of the Self and the non-Self). Nothing else will be acceptable in this scientific process. Nothing else will adjust, will it? There is no contradiction where there is only science. Contradictions exist in the _kramic_ path, because some have to be told one thing, and some have to be told something else. There is only one thing to be told here.

Anger-pride-deceit-greed that used to happen before caused the _bhaavkarma_. Now _bhaavkarma_ is gone as Chandubhai is no more. We have removed the _bhaavkarma_. _Bhaavkarma_ exists in the _kramik_ path, it is step by step.

**Questioner:** You said that _bhaavkarma_ arises because of presence of _kashayas_ , so if one kind of _kashaya_ is present out of four _kashayas_ even then one is considered equally at fault?

**Dadashri:** One out of four will not be there, all four will be together. But one will be more or less. One would be sitting like a leader inside. All four will be there. 'We—the _Gnani_ _Purush_ ' do not kill, we do not commit violence, but 'We' would give leave to one of them from here. So all the others would leave. So we give leave to the _kashaya_ by the name pride ( _maan_ ). So all those other would leave. Otherwise all others, anger and all other _kashayas_ would leave if we give them leave, but they will come back again. And if only pride destroys, then everything destroys. So there are six sons of _maya_ : anger-pride-deceit-greed, attachment-abhorrence. And seventh is _maya_ (illusion; ignorance of the Self), that one is trapping everybody in the world.

_Artadhyan_ - _raudradhyan_ and _dharmadhyan_ are all _bhaavkarma_.

##  Difference Between Bhaav, Bhaavna and Bhaavkarma

Whole world is trapped in _bhaavkarma_. _Bhaavkarma_ means sowing of seed (of new karma). _Kramic_ path means it is based on _bhaavkarma_. Sowing better seeds instead of bad seeds, then sowing even better seeds than that, and then even better seeds than that; that is how one has to progress forward ( in the _kramik_ step by step path).

**Questioner** : Good thoughts that come in the mind is called _bhaav_ , by the people?

**Dadashri** : No, no. People do not even understand _bhaav_. One says, 'I like the taste of this ( _bhavatoo_ ), I like this etc., but all that is not _bhaav._ No one knows how to recognise _bhaav_. _Bhaav_ continues to play in the words, 'This is my _bhaavtoo_ (to my liking), that is my _bhaavtoo'_ , so this is my _bhaav_. That is not _bhaav_. Yes, that seed ( _bhaav_ ) has a potential of growing. As long as there is the belief, 'I am Chandubhai', it will grow (give fruit in the next life). And it will not grow with, 'I am _Shuddhatma_ '.

However, that ('I like this' 'I feel like this') is not a _bhaavkarma_. Actually all these are fruits (effects) from _bhaavkarma_ only (from past life).

**Questioner** : Many times we do good _bhaav_ , why is that some _bhaav_ materialize and some do not? Is that due to our _bhaavkarma_ also?

**Dadashri** : No, it is not _bhaavkarma_. This ' _bhaav_ ' that happens is _ichchha_ (desire). _Bhaav_ is considered charge. That does not happen anymore at all. They stop after 'we' give you the _Gnan_. It is not a _bhaavkarma_. Just because you have this _bhaav_ , can you call it a _bhaavkarma_? _Bhaav_ is just a word being used.

**Questioner** : Dada, we have _bhaavna_ , where does it arise from?

**Dadashri** : But _bhaavna_ of what? There are two kinds of _bhaavnas_. If you like the taste of something ( _bhaavavoo_ ), people call it _bhaavna_. We say, 'This is my _bhaav._ ' This is an effect, and (really speaking) _bhaav_ that arises is karma, it is a _bhaavkarma_. _Bhaavna_ is a fruit of _bhaavkarma_. _Bhaavkarma_ is considered cause, and _bhaavna_ is an effect. 'This _bhaave_ (like the taste)' is an effect. Eat what you like the taste of ( _bhaave_ ), but roast the seed.

**Questioner** : So are _bhaavna_ and _bhaavkarma_ different?

**Dadashri** : Yes, _bhaavna_ will result in the _bhaavkarma_ , in the ignorant state. Now people use the word _bhaavna_ to represent _ichchha_ (desire). 'My _ichchha',_ they call it _bhaavna_ (sometimes they say _bhaav_ ). That is not a _bhaav_ ; _bhaav_ is a completely different thing. _Bhaav_ is a very deep (subtle) thing.

_Bhaavkarma_ , is when you are saying to fulfill your desires ( _ichchha_ ) within, and the _bhaavna_ you do, that you want to build a home, you want to get married, you want go get your son married, do you not do such _bhaavs_? When you do such _bhaav_ , the subtle _bhaav_ that is bound within, is _bhaavkarma_.

_Bhaavkarma_ cannot be in the effect (result, discharge). These are all considered effects. _Bhaavkarma_ is in the form of cause (charge). All these _bhaavnas_ are considered effects. They are in the form of effects.

_Bhaavkarma_ is a different thing. _Bhaavkarma_ is a difficult thing to understand. People think that 'I like the taste of it ( _bhaave_ ), so it is my _bhaavkarma_.' It is not like that. _Bhaavkarma_ does not come into worldly interaction at all. It is not visible in worldly interaction.

##  Even Gnani has Desire That is Dying

_Bhaavkarma_ will not come into awareness ( _khyal_ ). I have such _bhaav_ , I have such _bhaav_ , all that will come into yourawareness, but _bhaavkama_ will not come into your awareness at all.

'We' are said to be _nirichchhak_ (desire-free), the one who does not have any kind of desire. Yet if it is already one o'clock and if it is half past one then I would look inside, that why nobody is serving lunch today? Why would I say that? Is he a manager that he sees all this? But no, there is a desire to eat. What desire this _nirichchhak_ a (desire-free) person has? He has a desire to eat. All these desires are discharge (effect) desires. These _bhaav_ (desires) are discharge, the sun rises and sets, it looks the same even when it goes down. But like the setting sun, all those desires will come to an end. And they will arise again. Desires and _bhaav_ ( in discharge, effect) will remain right till the end, will they not? One will say, 'I like ( _bhaavey_ ) mangos', what will people say to that? You bound a _bhaavkarma_. No, not so. _Bhaavkarma_ is not that easy to understand.

**Questioner** : So, the _bhaavs_ (feelings with desire) sprouting from the heart considered _bhaavkarma_?

**Dadashri** : No, _bhaavkarma_ is something that you will not even find. One capable of understanding will understand, but it is something that cannot be explained.

If one understands _bhaavkarma_ , he is considered to have caught on to the _purushartha_ from there on. And when can _bhaavkarma_ be understood? Either _Atmagnan_ is ready to begin, or one has attained it; then he will understand it. Otherwise, when we say things like, 'I like ( _bhaavey_ ) this, and I like that', or when one succumbs to insistence filled _bhaav_ and eats, that has nothing to do with _bhaavkarma_.

Now that you have attained _samkit_ (right Vision), and You delve deeper would you or would you not one day understand what this is? Who makes you do this? It is not something that can be explained. And many people ask, how what kind of _Gnan_ you attained? How can you explain _Gnan_? These entanglements of words cannot be there.

##  Bhaav Will Improve Both Lives

**Questioner** : Please explain with an example what _bhaavkarma_ is?

**Dadashri** : Say one man says, 'I gave fifty thousand rupees in donation, but I did so out of pressure from our mayor. Otherwise I am not the one to give anything at all.' Sometimes, one has to donate because of the pressure from someone, does that happen or not? He gives fifty thousand because of the pressure from the mayor. Now who will credit this fifty thousand? In which account will that be credited? His _bhaav_ (intention) is like this, his _bhaav_ is not to give, but he gives because of the pressure from the mayor. Will his giving go to complete waste? No, it will not be wasted. There has to be some fruit (result) for his giving. He will receive the fruit in this life only. People will sing his praise. He will not receive it (credit) in his next life. And the one who gives with _bhaav_ (positive intent of helping others), people will praise him in the current worldly life, and he will also receive credit for the donation, in his next life; he will receive both.

That is called _bhaavkarma_. If you keep such _bhaav_ clean (positive and helpful to others), then you will receive its fruit here, in this very life; and also there in the next life. By ruining the _bhaav_ , you ruin the _bhaavkarma_ (charge karma).

##  With 'I am Shuddhatma', Bhaavkarma Goes Away

**Questioner** : Are all the karma bound through _bhaavkarma_?

**Dadashri** : This whold world has arisen from _bhaavkarma_ only. 'We' stop all the _bhaavkarma_ with the 'key' ( _Gnan_ ), so one becomes free from them; he stops binding karma. The only binding that happens is from following the _Agnas_ , for one or two life times. Whole world has been bound by _bhaavkarma_ indeed.

As long as 'I' is in 'I am Chandubhai', there is _bhaavkarma_ , and when 'I' is in 'I am _Shuddhatma_ ' _bhaavkarma_ ceases. _Bhaav_ means _astitva_ (existence). To exist where one is not, is called _bhaavkarma_.

**Questioner** : Is it _abhaav_ (aversion) to believe _vastutva_ (self)?

**Dadashri** : No, _bhaav_ ('I am Chandulal') arises because of _abhaav_ (aversion because of ignorance) of _vastutva_ (establishing as the Self). When _bhaav_ (view as the Self) for _vastutva_ (established as the Self) arises, _bhaavkarma_ goes away. So _astitva_ (existence) is there, but if one believes _astitva_ as the Self, then there is no _bhaavkarma_ , and and if one believes existence ( _astitva_ ) in _dehadhyas_ (I am the body), then there is _bhaavkarma_. Therefore, only _bhaavkarma_ is the impediment, nothing else is impeding. The world arises from _bhaavkarma_ , and effect of which comes forth. As _bhaavkarma_ ceases, the world begins to leave and end. Then, only the effect needs to be suffered.

##  Bhaavkarma bound through doership

Then the main _bhaav_ , that 'I did it' gives rise to _bhaav_. When you do it with _kartabhaav_ ('I am doing'), that doer ( _karta_ ) is _bhaavkarma_. That which is suffered with _bhogtabhaav_ ('I am suffering'); that is also _bhaavkarma_. After attaining the _Gnan_ , You do not suffer with _bhogtabhaav_ , you suffer with _nikaal_ (setlling) _bhaav_. You settle with equanimity, while the other person (who has not attained _Gnan_ ) suffers with _bhogtabhaav_ ('I am suffering') .

Do you experience that it happens?

**Questioner** : Yes, Dada.

**Dadashri** : What are the things that happen?

**Questioner** : When everything is just happening, then where is the question of our doership?

**Dadashri** : And the doership that is there within, it is with intent of 'I am doing' ( _bhaavatmak bhaav_ ), which I have stopped. Whole world becomes a doer through _bhaavkarma_.'We' have stopped that for You. 'We' have put a lock on that.

With the _bhaav_ , 'I am the doer', whatever happens is called _bhaavkarma_ (charge, cause karma). 'I am the doer of this', is _bhaav_ _karma_. 'I am not the doer, _vyavasthit_ is the doer', is there for You, no? Then what else is there? Then _bhaavkarma_ is gone.

*****

#  [2.12]

#  Dravyakarma + Bhaavkarma

##  Relation Between Bhaavkarma and Dravyakarma

**Questioner** : Of the three karma ( _bhaav, drava and no karma_ ) what is the _nimit_ - _naimitik_ (evidentiary) relationship between _bhaavkarma_ and _dravyakarma_? Please explain that in detail.

**Dadashri** : This pain-pleasure ( _shata_ - _ashata_ ) one suffers is _dravyakarma_. Then fame-defame ( _yasha_ - _apyasha_ ) one receives is _dravyakarma_. Treatment with respect-scorn one receives is _dravyakarma_. Long-short _ayushya_ (lifespan) one receives is _dravyakarma_. Hence, these _vedaniya_ , _naam_ , _gotra_ and _ayushya_ – these four and _Gnanavaran_ , _Darshanavaran_ , _mohaniya_ and _antaraya_ , they are the eight _dravyakarma_. From these eight arise _bhaavkarma_. How do they arise? When _ashata_ _vedaniya_ comes, one becomes irritated with his son, with his wife. When _shata_ _vedaniya_ comes he becomes pleased. Then comes the high _gotra_ (status karma). He is pleased if it is high, and if it is of a lower class, he will feel bad when someone tells him that he is of the lower class. And from that _bhaavkarma_ is bound.

**Questioner** : The subtle _parmanus_ that are within, are they in the form of _dravyakarma_?

**Dadashri** : Yes. In the form of _dravyakarma_ , that is correct. So, because of all the _dravyakarma_ , _bhaavkarma_ arise. But if You do not become the owner of them, then _bhaavkarma_ will go away (not happen). Those _bhaavkarma_ arise because you take on the ownership of the _dravyakarma_. When you become free of the ownership, _bhaavkarma_ will go away. _Bhaavkarma_ going away means charging karma will stop, and only discharge will remain which this body will have to suffer.

**Questioner** : Do the type and the degree of _bhaavkarma_ are as they are in _dravyakarma_ , or is there a difference?

**Dadashri** : No, it is nothing like that. _Bhaavkarma_ is only of one type. It gels from the main place and it is called _bhaavkarma_. And then it takes a long time to form new _dravyakarma_.

##  Secret About why Impurity Touches the Self

**Questioner** : Here, a question arises that if the Self was pure ( _shuddha_ ) indeed, absolutely pure, then why did this happen when it came into close proximity ( _samipya_ ) to the _pudgal_ (non-Self complex)? Why did it catch on to, 'I am not pure'? Why did it forget its own purity at that time?

**Dadashri:** No, it has not forgotten anything. _Vyatirek guna_ have arisen.

**Questioner:** So, did it then do _bhaav_?

**Dadashri** : No, no he did not do any _bhaav_ or anything. These _vyatirek guna, bhaav karma_ have arisen from _dravyakarma_. The _bhaavkarma_ means; pride means 'I' and greed means 'my'. With 'I' and 'my', everything started. It is the 'I' who suffers the pain; nothing touches the Self. Now how can the pain one stop from coming? One does suffer pain, does he not? It is because there is the belief of 'I-ness' ( _hoonpanu_ ). Belief means that there is power of the _Chetan_ (Self) that filled into this, because of the belief. In what did the power of _Chetan_ come? In the form of belief. The pain ( _dukha_ ) is of that power; that power is there in it, and that is the pain. When the power gets pulled from it, pain goes away. Like when the power is used up from this battery cell, the cell is dead. This power has arisen from _vyatirek guna_ ( _bhaav karma_ , I am Chandulal, I am doer). It is called _vyavahar atma_ (relative self), it is not real Atma (the Self). It is _pratisthit atma_ (relative or charged self).

**Questioner** : The two original ones (the Self and the _pudgal_ ) remain together. Do they not lose their individual attributes?

**Dadashri** : They have no give-take with each other. Absolutely no give or take. If anger-pride-deceit-greed do not happen, then the Self would remain within, and _indriyas_ (five sensory and five reactive organs) would keep eating peacrfully within, eating and drinking would continue. But _vyatirek_ _gunas_ ( _kashaya_ ) have arisen, anger-pride-deceit-greed have arisen.

Whatever is done with the belief 'I am Chandubhai', is all _bhaavkarma_. Therefore _karma_ gets bound. And 'I am _Shuddhatma_ ' is _swabhav_ (state of the Self) where the Self is in its own natural state. But _bhaavkarma_ means in _vibhav_ (attribute that is not of the Self), so 'I am Chandubhai' is _vibhav-karma_ , that itself is _bhaavkarma_. That which is seen 'wrong' (not as it is) is all considered _bhaavkarma_. Everything that is 'seen' 'right' (as it is) is _swabhav karma._ The thing called _bhaav_ and through it, that which is seen is the illusion ( 'I am Chandulal, 'This is mine' 'I am doing') and that is the _bhaavkarma._ 'I will do this and I will do that, and did that' is all _bhaavkarma_.

**Questioner:** The _bhaavkarma_ that happens, 'I will do this and I will do that.' Is that charge _bhaav_ or discharge _bhaav_?

**Dadashri:** After attaining the _Gnan_ , they are discharge _bhaav_. For others they are _charge_ _bhaav_ , are they not? 'I am doing it' is itself a charge _bhaav_. Yes, it is different matter if the 'I' is dramatic. There are only rare Ones with an 'I' that is dramatic. However, everything with 'I am doing,' is charge. All this that people do, run business and everything, earn money, that 'I am doing' is itself _bhaavkarma_. **(Aptavani 13 P 279 eng 238,239) (T-76 Dec '11)**

##  Belief Changed With Pressure of Circumstances

**Questioner** : I want to understand what is _bhaavkarma_. Who does this _bhaavkarma_?

**Dadashri** : _Bhaavkarma_ is in fact the energy of the Self. The belief of the Self changes; only its belief changes, nothing happens to the _Gnan_. It only happens to the belief.

Now why does _bhaavkarma_ happen? The Self can Know and See, but the circumstances which come together on the path of evolution ( _samsaran_ _marg_ ), all the six eternal elements; because of them a 'bandage' (veil) is placed over the 'eyes' (Vision of the Self). This (original _dravyakarma_ ), bandages (veils) are placed over the four out the eight karma. And the other for karma have to be suffered through this body.

_Dravyakarma_ is the bandages of the four karma placed over the eyes (Vision), and because of that one does not see as it is, and everything worldly (relative) goes on. To have the wrong belief of the self is _bhaavkarma_. When 'we' give _Gnan_ , the bandages (veils) are removed, and then the right vision begins. But who is really the doer of _bhaavkarma_? It is the ego, the one that suffers. The Self does not suffer anything.

Some people say that the Self did _bhaavkarma_. If one understands the Self and _bhaavkarma_ according to his own interpretation ( _bhasha_ ), then there is no possibility of a solution. It will have to be understood in the language of the _Vitarag_. And if _bhaavkarma_ was the attribute of the Self, then it would remain forever. Do you understand that?

Now what is _bhaavkarma_? Two _vastus_ (eternal elements), _vastu_ is always eternal. _Tirthankars_ have called them _vastu_. When circumstances of two eternal elemets, _jada_ (matter) and _Chetan_ (the Self) come together, they give rise to an extra ( _vishesha_ ; additional) attributes. They maintain their own attributes, but a third attribute arises, which people called _vibhaav_. People in their own interpretation call it as opposite attribute, they say that opposite _bhaav_ of the Self arose. They say that the _sansarbhaav_ (worldly intent) of the Self arose. Hey you, can the Self ever have _sansarbhaav_? It is _vishesha_ (extra) _bhaav_. By circumstances of two _vastus_ (eternal elements) coming together, it has happened. _Vastus_ have to be eternal, then, their coming together gives rise to _visheshbhaav_.

**Questioner** : Does _vishesha bhaav_ arise in both?

**Dadashri** : In both. _Vishesha bhaav_ happens in the _pudgal_ and it also happens in the Self.

**Questioner** : Do _vishesha bhaav_ of both arise separately, or do they come together as one?

**Dadashri** : It is like this: In the _pudgal_ part, the _pudgal_ is not live. There is no _bhaav_ there, but it becomes ready to acquire _vishesha bhaav_. So change happens in it also change happens in the 'Self' too. Now the Self does not do anything in this, _pudgal_ does not do anything; _vishesha bhaav_ arises.

**Questioner** : Is it because of the circumstances of the two together.

**Dadashri** : The second the circumstance happens, _vishesha_ _bhaav_ arises immediately.

**Questioner** : Is it merely because of the circumstance, or what is the reason?

**Dadashri** : It is because of the circumstance. But the other reason is the ignorance ( _aGnanta_ ). You have to accept it (believe it) completely. Because what we are talking about, we are talking about what is within the boundry of ignorance. We are not talking about what is within the boundry of the _Gnan_. Therefore, this _vishesha_ _bhaav_ arises for the Self in the ignorant state.

##  Inspiration is of Power Chetan –the 'Energized' Self

**Questioner:** Shrimad Rajchandra has said, ' _Hoy na Chetan prerana, to kaun grahe karma_?' (If not for the inspiration of the 'self', who would acquire _karma_?). Please explain that.

**Dadashri:** What it is that; that is a _kramic_ path. Now what do they consider _Chetan_ in the _kramic_ path? They consider _vyavahar atma_ (the worldly interacting self) as _Chetan_. So this inspiration is of that _Chetan_ (of the self), so we say that, that is all of egoism, and they call it the self. And it gives the inspiration. Now, that _Chetan_ is _Chetan_ , but we deduced that it is a power _Chetan_ , not the main _Chetan_ (Self; _shuddha_ _Chetan_ ). And if it was a pure _Chetan_ (Self), if it inspires, it will remain the inspirer ( _prerak_ ) forever, wherever it goes.

**Questioner:** So change that _pudgal_ undergoes, who acquires that? What is there to acquire in it?

**Dadashri:** Yes, he is right, ' _Hoy na Chetan prerana, to kaun grahe karma_?' (If there is no inspiration of the 'self', then who (would be there to) acquire _karma_?). It is the one who says, 'I am doing it', who acquires the _karma_.

**Questioner:** So it does not acquire anything, it is just a belief.

**Dadashri:** It is all a belief. It is all verily the wrong belief. It is verily a belief and _pudgal_ becomes that form. Whatever the belief, that form of _pudgal_ arises. Fruit of this _bhaav_ , is that one becomes that form of _dravya_ (that which is experienced through the five senses and the mind body complex). Such is the nature of the _pudgal_ , and with 'I am not the doer', then nothing happens to that _pudgal_. Even if it is there, it will become free. It becomes free if one becomes the Knower-Seer. As long as one is the doer, new _pudgals_ are also acquired and the old ones are also released. The one acquiring is 'he' (the ego), and the one releasing is also 'he' (the ego). And here (In _Akram_ ), the one acquiring is gone and the one releasing is _vyavasthit_ , ' _potey_ – I -the Self' becomes free from it all.

Now, how can people understand this deep talk? They do not understand it, so they believe that main _Chetan_ (Self) is doing all this.

##  Bhaavkarma is the Imagination of the 'self'

**Questioner** : The other thing that Krupadudev (Shrimad Rajchandra) has said, ' _Bhaavkarma nija kalpana, matey Chetan rupa, jivaviryani sfurna, graham kare jadadhup_ '. Please explain that.

**Dadashri** : Yes, that is correct. _Bhaavkarma_ is in the imagination of the self, nd therefore it appears as the self ( _chetan_ ). But that is so as long as there is _bhaavkarma_. _Bhaavkarma_ applies to the _vyavahar_ atma (worldly interacting self). Here (in _Akram Vignan_ ) 'we' have completely eliminated the _bhaavkarma_.

**Questioner** : Just kept the _muda Atma_ (main Self).

**Dadashri** : 'We' completely left the Self alone, as the absolute One, and in the _kramic_ path there is _bhaavkarma_ , that is considered one's own imagination ( _kalpana_ ). Therefore, as _Chetan_ it becomes _mishrachetan_ (mixture of the Self and the non-Self).

_Nija kalpana_ means _sankalp_ - _vikalp_ ('mine' and 'I am Chandulal'). 'We' have completely removed the existence of _bhaavkarma_ , which in the _kramic_ path goes away in one's final life (before _moksha_ ), it goes away upon attaining _kevalGnan_. We removed it immediately. Otherwise, 'You' will not be considered _nirvikalpi_ (egoless, the Self) will you? And 'I am Chandubhai' is _vikalp_ , 'I am Jain' is _vikalp_. 'I am a vaniya' is a _vikalp_ , 'I am fifty years old' is a _vikalp_ , there are so many _vikalps_. All those _vikalps_ have been fractured.

Only _Gnanis_ understand this language. However, how can the _aGnani_ (one withouth the Knowledge of the Self) understand it? So people understand that the main _Chetan_ is like this. They say that it will not stop from doing _bhaav_ , _sankalp_ - _vikalp_ etc.

_Bhaavkarma_ means doing _vikalp_ ('I am this') of _vyavahar atma_ (relative self) Inspiration of _Chetan_ happened in it, and so power is filled in the _pudgal_. It becomes a _pudgal_ with power (power _Chetan_ ). Now, after attaining _Gnan_ , new power does not fill in it, and the old keeps discharging.

##  Pudgal Arose Based on the Intent-Imagination

_Bhaavkarma_ means to miss out (come out of) the nature of the Self ( _swabhaav dharma_ ). One misses his _nija bhaav_ (state and nature of the Self) because of _kashaya_ (anger, pride, deceit and greed), and then _parabhaav_ (the view-intent of the non-Self) arises. That _parabhaav_ is considered _bhaavkarma_. But imagination ( _kalpana_ ) is 'his' (ego) own, and that is why Krupadudev says that it is in _Chetan_ form.

_Jadadhupa_ means it pulls _parmanus_ (subatomic particles). The moment one becomes angry, _bhaavkarma_ happens, _parmanus_ are pulled in. External _parmanus_ do not enter much into it. The external _parmanus_ are in the gross form, however only the inner _parmanus_ are pulled into one's inner space ( _nija akasha_ ). All the _parmanus_ are in it. But the subtle ones are within; they are all ready. External ones come together because of the subtle ones. The _sthula_ (gross, visible) are also needed, no?

And when 'one' does _kalpana_ ( _bhaav_ intent based imagination), it is called a design. When a photo of that design happens, then _pudgal_ becomes exactly like that design. So we did not do anything to create this _pudgal_ , it has happened according to our _kalpana_. This _pudgal_ has arisen in exact accordance with the _kalpana_ of _bhaavkarma_. Eyes-nose and everything. So His words, ' _jivaviryani sfurna, graham kare jadadhup_ ' means, it (the energy of the living being) pulls these _parmanus_ , acquires them. They are pulled in as soon as the 'energy of inspiration' ( _sfurna_ ) arises. Whatever the _bhaav_ \- inspiration happened, such _pudgal_ _parmanus_ are pulled in and this has arisen. Otherwise who created the water-bufalow? The answer is 'he' (in ignorance in past life) 'created' the _pudgal_ of the water buffalo, and then 'he' entered it. Who created the elephant? 'He' created it. No one'creates' it with awareness; one 'creates' it through _kashayas_. _Kashaya_ means that one has no control in it; it is _parabhaav_. One is forced into doing it, _parabhaav_. It is only because _swabhaav_ (the Self) is lost; otherwise will anyone become a donkey? Will anyone like that? But what can one do? One becomes an elephant and lives 'peacefully'(!) inside. Then he will keep moving his trunk around, will he not? And look at the donkey, it walks around happily with loaded sacks on its back, does it not?

Did you understand, ' _Graham kare jadadhup_ '? It is only 'you' who has given rise to _jadadhup_ (that which charges or pulls subatomic particles). God has not come in to design all that. No one has come to do that. When you do negative _bhaav_ , _parmanus_ surrounds you, and those _parmanus_ make you only blind. And if you do positive _bhaav_ , those _parmanus_ (negative ones) go away. It is not that you accumulate them only. But one should also know how to do positive _bhaav_ , should he not? And having done positive _bhaav_ , if one is not going to do negative ones, then it is fine, but he may even do negative ones. What does an elephant do? It takes a bath with his trunk, and then he also throws dirt over his body with the trunk. It then takes a bath again. Hey, why do you throw dirt over yourself if you have to take a bath? But nature of the _prakruti_ will not go away, will it?

##  Nondoer With Gnan, Doer with aGnan

**Questioner** : The Self, as an element is not the doer of karma, so then how can it do _bhaavkarma_?

**Dadashri** : It is a non-doer as the element (as the Self), but through ignorance ( _aGnan_ ) it is a doer, is it not? As long as one does not know, 'Who am I?' one is the doer. He is not the doer after he attains the awareness of 'I am _Shuddhatma_ '.

##  Through 'it Happens' one is the 'Doer' of Dravyakarma

**Questioner** : There is a quote from Krupadudev, ' _anupchaarik vyavahar thii atma dravyakarma no karta chhe, upcharthi ghar-nagaradi no karta chhe.'_ Through invisible-involuntary conduct in worldly interacrtion, the self is the doer of _dravyakarma_ ; through visible-voluntary conduct the self is the doer (builder) of homes-cities.'

**Dadashri:** 'You-the awakened One of _Akram_ _Vignan_ ' do not have anything to bother with _upcharit_ - _anupcharit_ (visible or invisible discharging conduct, activity), do you? These words are taught in the _kramic_ path. On what basis 'you are Chandubhai', and on what basis you built a home, you did this and you did that? That is through _upchar_ _vyavahar_ visible conduct in worldly interaction ( _vyavahar_ ). And _anupcharit_ _vyavahar_ , it is one whose visible conduct has not occurred at all, its _yojna_ (planning) has not occurred, whose design has not been made; through such _anupcharik vyavahar_ the self is the doer of _dravyakarma_ (subtle discharging _karma_ , through which _bhaav karma_ or charge _karma_ happens). Eight categories of _karma_ give the fruit; in that visible conduct ( _upchar_ ), it is the doer of home-city-potmaking etc.

'I am going and I am coming' is _upchar_ (visible conduct). This is so because what has become _charit_ (formed in conduct, visible in effect) is becoming _upcharit_ (expressing, discharing in conduct through mind, speech and body). _Upcharit_ of _charit_ happens, that which is ready as fruit, unfolds in conduct. And if you want to do the function, make it formal, you have to do _aupcharik_. Then _upcharit_ became _aupcharik._ _Charit_ (conduct) has already happened (effect), and now _upcharit_ (unfolding visible conduct). Does He (Shrimad Rajchandra) not say that this is nothing but _upchar_?

Do you understand, 'With _upchar_ , a doer of _ghar_ - _nagar_ _aadi_ ' (one is a doer of home, city etc. through visible conduct) and ' _anupcharya_ ' (that which happens). How much of a problem it would have been if had to mold a nose or something like that? We can make _ghar_ - _nagar_ (home-city), but how much of a problem it would have been if we were given this responsibility (of shaping-making a human body complex). So look, this (state of Yours in _Akram_ ) is without any responsibility, is it not?

This one (the self in current life) does the design of _bhaav_ , and the _pudgal_ does the design of the _pudgal_ (for next life). Based on the _bhaav_ this one does, it happens.

Just as you raise your hand in front of a mirror, the mirror shows that, does it not? That is how this is. That is how it happens immediately. Hence, these words are worth understanding, they are very deep words, but they are in the _kramic_ path. We do not need these words (in _Akram_ ), do we? I have removed all the _upchar_ - _anupchar_ business (all issues of conduct, the effect). I have left nothing for you to memorize. One wanders around with the experience of the Self, the very next day.

How much of a problem it would have been if had to mold a nose or something like that? We can make _ghar_ - _nagar_ (home-city), but how much of a problem it would have been if we were given this responsibility (of shaping-making a human body complex). So look, this (state of Yours in _Akram_ ) is without any responsibility, is it not?

This one (the self in current life) does the design of _bhaav_ , and the _pudgal_ does the design of the _pudgal_ (for next life). Based on the _bhaav_ this one does, it happens.

**Questioner** : Those _pudgals_ get pulled in.

**Dadashri** : Yes. They are pulled in. They have become ready because they have been pulled in. They are already pulled in for sure. Doing _bhaav_ they become bound. Therefore whatever kinds of _bhaav_ one does, all this becomes bound. So this does not come into one's awareness that how all this is bound. How did the design of _pudgal_ happen? Whatever design of _bhaav_ the self does, that design will happen. This one does the design of _bhaav_ , and the _pudgal_ does the design of the _pudgal_. Based on the _bhaav_ this one 'does', it happens. Just as you raise your hand in front of a mirror, the mirror shows that, does it not? That is how this is. That is how it happens immediately. Hence, these words are worth understanding, they are very deep words, but they are in the _kramic_ path. We do not need these words (in _Akram_ ), do we? I have removed all the _upchar_ - _anupchar_ business (all issues of conduct, the effect). I have left nothing for you to memorize. One wanders around with the experience of the Self, the very next day.

##  Electrical Body and Kashaya

**Questioner** : Now, anger-pride-deceit-greed is called _bhaavkarma_. One time the talk had come out that anger-pride-deceit-greed happens because of subtle body ( _sukshma sharira_ ).

**Dadashri** : Yes, that is correct. There, it is only subtle body only. The electrical body charges too, and that is why one feels burning sensation, that is how the _parmanu_ happens.

**Questioner:** So then, what is the relationship between _bhaavkarma_ and subtle body?

**Dadashri:** There is no give-take at all. The subtle body digests the food, and circultes the blood etc.

**Questioner:** And yet, does it (subtle body) become the base for anger-pride-deceit-greed?

**Dadashri:** The electrical body is not the support. Where tdoes the electricity come from? Electricity is needed, no? Those _parmanus_ are electrical, with electricity, and that is why they sting and burn, no? They have been charged with electricity and that is why they feel like a burn!

**Questioner:** So then at time does the electricity of the subtle body have a role?

**Dadashri:** Yes, the subtle body is all filled with electricity.

##  The Candle Burns and the wax Deposits

New _dravyakarma_ are binding for the one who has not taken _Gnan_ ( _Gnan Vidhi_ ). What is it that binds this karma? Then the answer is that other new karma are being bound through _bhaavkarma_ , and the current life's _dravayakarma_ that are there are dissolving, and as they are dissolving at that time, new _bhaavkarma_ keep being deposited within. Just as a candle is burning and the wax is depositing, in the same, in this candle of _dravyakarma_ , _bhaavkarma_ are being deposited.

The whole world has arisen through _bhaavkarma_ and through it new _dravyakarma_ are being formed, and from that _bhaavkarma_ arises again. Then _dravyakarma_ get bound, and this carries on.

**Questioner:** And does this body arise as a result of that karma?

**Dadashri:** _Bhaavkarma_ happen through _kashaya_ , and when _bhaavkarma_ happen, then karma will be bound. And they in turn will become ready to give fruits in the next life. So, _bhaavkarma_ becomes _dravyakarma._ What happens when _dravyakarma_ happens? It all gets divided into eight parts. So this much in _Gnanavaraniya_ , this much in _Darshanavaraniya_ , this much in _mohaniya,_ this much in _antarya,_ this much in _naam,_ this much in _vedaniya,_ this much in _gotra,_ and this much in _ayushya._

It becomes _bhaavkarma_ from that _dravyakarma._ Otherwise if the _dravyakarma_ become cleared (without further charge) then _bhaavkarma_ will not happen at all. So 'we' have destroyed _Darshanavaran_ and _mohaniya_ , and with the chage in Vision, _bhaavkarma_ left. The entire _bhaavkarma_ has left.

##  Bhaavkarma Results From Dravyakarma

_Bhaavkarma_ always arises from _dravyakarma_ , but as long as there is _bhaavkarma_ , there is ignorance of the Self ( _aGnanta_ ), and where there is no no _bhaavkarma_ at all, there is _Gnan_.

When 'we' give you _Gnan_ , 'we' removed the 'bandages' ( veils). So, entire _bhaavkarma_ , which gave rise to the worldly life, goes away. Entire _bhaavkarma_ is gone, and that is called _Akram Vignan_. And in the _kramic_ path, they say what you are saying, that _dravyakarma_ comes from _bhaavkarma_ , and _bhaavkarma_ comes from _dravyakarma_ again. But they understand _dravyakarma_ as something different. The worldly interaction that goes on outside; they understand it differently. However, _dravyakarma_ means those 'bandages' (blind fold, veils), that is all. Main cause is _dravyakarma_. _Dravyakarma_ gives rise to _bhaavkarma_. Effects from causes, and causes from effects arise again. Now, karma that they can see, people consider that _dravyakarma_. Infact _Tirthankaras_ have not said that. _Tirthankaras_ have mentioned only the two: _dravyakarma_ and _bhaavkarma_.

Questioner: But what we see is not _dravyakarma_?

Dadashri: No, no. In this language (of the people), this goes on but here (in _Akram_ ) what we say is correct, and on the outside what you are saying is what is going on.

Questioner: I have not understood exactly about that _bhaav_ yet.

Dadashri: The causes of this entire life arise in the form of veils in the next life. In the form of veils, which impede clear Vision. If it is little bit green then it appears green, if it is yellow then it appears yellow. So varieties of _bhaav_ will arise in people.

Questioner: So then this _dravya_ _karma_ (discharge karma, effect karma) becomes the cause for the next life, does it not?

**Dadashri:** The cause of the next life is verily the blindfold _paato_ , the veil ( _dravya_ _karma_ ). It is that which blinds the Self. That is why one makes the _bhaav_ (subtlest intent), otherwise _Atma_ – the Self never does any _bhaav_.

**Questioner:** Dada, only the _pratishthit_ _atma_ the relative self, discharging self does the _bhaav_ , does it not? _Shuddhatma_ —pure Self will not do any _bhaav_ , will it?

**Dadashri:** In fact even _pratishthit_ _atma_ does not do any _bhaav_ at all. _Shuddhatma_ does not do any _bhaav_ either. It is just that the one who believes that 'I am Chandubhai' that _vyavahar_ _atma_ the worldly self does the _bhaav_. _Pratishthit_ _atma_ had arisen through _bhaav_ 'I am Chandulal,' only. If there were no _bhaav_ then _pratishthit_ _atma_ would not have arisen at all.

It is verily these 'wrong 'seeing' veils' that are the problematic obstructions. Now what exactly are they? They are the result, the fruits of past life accounts, and they verily blind us again and make us see the wrong and the opposite.

**Questioner:** How much force would it have?

**Dadashri:** The greater the force of the original cause, the greater will be its effect. If the cause is powerful then the effect will be powerful. If the cause is weak then effect will be weak.

**Questioner** : But if the cause is strong, then will it not pull one (towards the non-Self)?

**Dadashri** : Leave alone pulling the man away, but it throws him over upside down, does it not? They are all wrong 'bandages' (veils), they will make one see everything the wrong way. Does it show you right way or the wrong way?

**Questioner** : Dada, now I See only the right way.

**Dadashri** : Is that so? Have you seen the wrong way before?

**Questioner** : Many.

**Dadashri** : Is that so? Do you not see the wrong anymore? When 'we' give this _Gnan_ , then most parts of these veils ( _avaran_ ) are destroyed, removed. But some people cannot digest this. The science ( _Vignan_ ) is not digested. One will keep getting solution as it is digested. It will not be digested immediately, will it? But if one remains in _satsang_ then his work can be done with ease. This is because the _satsang_ is such a thing that one's veils would continue to break day by day, however _parichaya_ (familiarity) is necessary.

##  Dravyabandha-Bhaavbandha

**Questioner** : Please explain _dravyabandha_ and _bhaavbandha_.

**Dadashri** : If one has not attained the _Gnan_ , then whatever he does in the presence of _aGnan_ , it causes _bhaavbandha_. And that _bhaavbandha_ results into _dravyabandha_. The eight karma that are there, are called _bandha_ (bondage) of _dravyakarma_. That is what is called _dravyakarma_. There are no other _dravyakarma_.

**Questioner** : The eight karma, in _kramic_ scriptures they refer to those _rupi_ (visible) karma as _dravyakarma_. When the self enters into the complex of attached formed karma, then it is called _dravyabandha_. So there _dravyabandha_ has been called _rupi_ (visible), and _bhaavbandha_ is called _arupi_ (visible).

**Dadashri** : Is _Gnanavaran_ visible? _Darshanavaran_ is not visible. _Antaraya_ is not visible. Those are the true _dravyakarma_. All these eight karma, they are the _dravyakarma_. If you want to understand the Lord's language, then in his language that is _dravyakarma_ , and because of it exist anger-pride-deceit-greed. There are 'bandages' of _dravyakarma_. Bandage of _Darshanavaran_ , and therefore the poor man keeps colliding. And as he collides, he becomes upset. That binds the _bhaavkarma_.

**Questioner** : Is _Gnanavaraniya_ karma _rupi_ (visible)?

**Dadashri** : No, but what I am saying is that what do these ( _kramik_ path) people consider _dravyakarma_? They consider sniffing of tobacco _dravyakarma_.

**Questioner** : Yes, that what is visible, that which is _rupi_.

**Dadashri** : All that are visible; they call them _dravyakarma_. If I wear a garland of flowers, they call it _dravyakarma_.

**Questioner** : Yes, that is what they say.

**Dadashri** : Now, what 'we' say is that, _dravyakarma_ cannot exist in two ways, only one. _Dravyakarma_ is that from which arises _bhaavkarma_. And that from which _bhaavkarma_ does not arise, is not _dravyakarma_.

So this _Vignan_ of ours is different. Ours is all very clear, is it not? They may be seeing it differently, however that is not the understanding, it is not correct. That is not the talk of the Lord. The Lord is very clear. But then afterwards (after Lord Mahavir's departure) anything may have happened. I call everything _nokarma_ (gross discharging karma), but this is based on our science. It is possible that it will mean different if there is some difference in that other ( _kramik_ ) science.

This is arisen from ignorance ( _aGnan_ ). When _aGnan_ is gone, this will leave. The _aGnan_ has cleared, has it not? The belief, 'I am Chandubhai' is gone, is it not?

**Questioner** : Yes, completely gone.

**Dadashri** : Then that is good; then this is exactly what this is. Therefore there it is _kramic_ , so such meaning may be necessary, for them.

Now, their _bhasha_ (inner language) is different. Their interpretation is that whatever you see with your eyes; becoming angry is _bhaavbandha_. And receiving a slap from someone, they call it _dravyabandha_. But what are really considered _dravyakarma_ from this _bhaavkarma_? The eight karma are considered _dravyakarma_ , this is the main eight karma, and that is called _dravyakarma_. These are called _bhaavkarma_ and those are called are _nokarma_. These people refer to _nokarma_ as _dravyakarma_. If they understood only this much, the problem would have been solved.

They consider even _nokarma_ as _dravyakarma_. They consider _dravykarma_ in the _bhaavkarma_. But true _dravyakarma_ are these eight karma. _Bhaavkarma_ from _dravyakarma_ , and _dravyakarma_ from _bhaavkarma_ again, and _bhaavkarma_ from _dravyakarma_ , and _dravyakarma_ from _bhaavkarma_ , that is all. And _nokarma_ does not have much value. They spin as a top does, so what?

##  Mistake is Only of the Vision

Now what is _bhaavkarma_? Say there is a businessman with strong _dravyakarma_ , admired by others ( _lokapujya_ ), so we will say, ' _Sheth_ , welcome, welcome.' There is nothing wrong for the _Sheth_ to be welcomed but if his ego becomes inflated, that is _bhaavkarma_ , and if we insult him and he gets depressed, that is also _bhaavkarma_. So there are eight kinds of _dravyakarma_ , from which all the _bhaavkarma_ arise. Those _bhaav_ are in the form of _raag_ - _dwesh_ (attachment-abhorrence) or in the form of anger-pride-deceit-greed. What about that _Sheth_? Pride and anger arose in him, because of 'Wecome, welcome'. He keeps becoming proud, and that other got enveloped in an inferiority complex; hence both are harmful.

When fruit (result) of high _gotrakarma_ comes, one becomes elevated, and becomes depressed when fruit of low _gotrakarma_ comes, and so _raag_ - _dwesh_ attachment-abhorrence, anger-pride-deceit-greed, continue to happen. So that is called _asrava_ (attraction of subatomic karmic particles to the soul). So _ashrava_ happens when these eight _dravyakarma_ give their fruit, anger-pride-deceit-greed happen. Now how can that be stopped? They cannot stop, can they? If the vision ( _drashti_ ) changes ahead, then _asrava_ becomes _parishrava_ (no charging, exact discharge). This is where it will stop; otherwise it will not stop _bhaavkarma_ to happen from _dravyakarma_.

So 'we' did something that will not let _bhaavkarma_ arise from _dravyakarma_ at all. So we stopped _bhaavkarma_ for sure. So we removed _ashrava_ also. What did this _Akram_ _Vignan_ do? It removed everything. There is no _bhaav_ at all. Anger-pride-deceit-greed that arise, are all _nikali_ (settling). They are not capable of growing anymore, because the owner is gone. Otherwise what happens there? If the vision, 'This is mine' arises then _ashrava_ will happen again. _Ashrava_ happens when _bhaavkarma_ happens, and so _bandha_ (binding of new karma) happens again.

But what does Krupadudev say? ' _Ashrava tey parishrava. Nahi iin mey sandeh,_ _maatra drashti ki bhool hai._ ' That which is charged will discharge. There is no doubt about this. It is only the fault of the vision.

When the _ashrava_ happens, the binding will happen for sure. Therefore it is not worth uprooting ( _ashrava_ ) attachment-abhorrence-anger-pride-deceit-greed. You will not be able to dig them out; your efforts will be wasted. People have been making such useless efforts since time immemorial. But change the vision somehow. Therefore, if 'your' vision changes, then _ashrava_ is _parishrava_. _Parishrava_ means that it becomes discharge ( _nirjara_ ), without causing any bondage ( _bandha_ ). That is the highest way in the _kramic_ path. And here, for us, 'this is not mine at all', so then there is no problem there at all. When 'we' give _Gnan_ , from very next day 'this is not mine at all' remains. Anger-pride-deceit-greed are of Chandubhai. They are not effect producing; they are lifeless. Ego and everything is lifeless.

Therefore 'he' says, 'This is not mine, this is not mine, I am _Shuddhatma_ , I am _Shuddhatma_ ', does he not? Before, the one who used to say that 'I' am definitely Chandubhai, is no more now. One would ask, 'Are you not Chandubhai?' You can say that I am Chandubhai for worldly interaction ( _vyavahar_ ). Only for the worldly interaction, but really 'I' am not Chandubhai. Whole vision has changed.

Krupadudev, being a _Gnani Purush_ , had attained this (truth). And when he attained that, he wrote, ' _Ashrava tey parishrava. Nahi iin mey sandeh,_ _maatra drashti ki bhool hai._ ' That which is charged will discharge. There is no doubt about this. It is only the fault of the vision.

##  Lingadeha is Bhaavkarma

**Questioner** : But in that Dada, the Self is unsmeared-unanointed ( _nileyp_ ), the Self is not affected at all. Similarly, the body is not affected at all either. Whatever effect ( _asar_ ) happens; respect-disrespect, anger-sexuality, that is all affects the _lingadeha_ , so then where is the _lingadeha_? So it does the ego. It has the pride-extra pride. Sexual feelings-anger happens to it. All this relates to the body, and the self ( _atma_ ) becomes involved in it, then please tell us what is _lingadeha_.

**Dadashri** : _Lingadeha_ , we call it _bhaavkarma_. Now _lingadeha_ is not under the influence of the Self ( _swadhin_ ), it is under the influence of the non-Self ( _paradhin_ ). _Bhaavkarma_ is fruit of some seed. When that fruit comes, it is called _bhaavkarma_. We believe that ( _bhaavkarma_ ) as a seed again, and fruit of that comes. People call that _dravyakarma_. But _bhaavkarma_ means, that if you are of high _gotrakarma_ then your parents and others around you will be of a high _gotra_ , and that is why when you come, everyone will say, 'Welcome, welcome'. The effect of pride ( _maan_ ) that happens in your mind at that time is _bhaavkarma_. And if your _gotrakarma_ is poor, no one will welcome you, and you will feel, 'Fools, they are worthless people. They do not even know me.' _Mooah_ (oh mortal), why do you have to say a thing like that? That is _bhaavkarma_ you just did. That started the _lingadeha_. This is the cause of beginning of all the bodies.

**Questioner** : In that, Dada you have said, 'The cycle of rebirth that is going on, happens from the _bhaav_ of _lingdeha'_.

**Dadashri** : Yes. It happens from the _bhaav_. _Bhaav_ does not mean ' _bhaavavoo'_ (like the taste of something). Do _mahatmas_ not say, 'I like ( _bhaave_ ) mango pulp ( _ras_ ) and _rotli_ a lot, so will I not bind karma?' I told him, ' _bhaave_ is desire ( _ichchha_ )'. It is in your language that you say ' _bhaave'_ , for which you can also say ' _ruche chhe_ ('I like it'). But _bhaavkarma_ is a different thing. _Bhaavkarma_ means that, 'I am Chandubhai and this body is mine'. With this belief ( _bhaav,_ view), whatever _bhaav_ is done, it is _bhaavkarma_. And those who do not believe that, for them _lingadeha_ has stopped.

**Questioner** : Now _lingadeha_ has stopped. So does that mean that no _bhaav_ will arise at all?

**Dadashri** : After this _Gnan_ 'we' have stopped your _bhaav_ completely, have 'we' not?

**Questioner** : Yes, so there will not be any _lingadeha_ at all, right? So then if I believe that I am not Chandubhai, I am not this body, then what am I to do? I am not to do anything?

**Dadashri** : No. Why not 'do' anything'? When 'what I am' has been decided, then 'this is not' is decided. Now You want to go into this direction, You want to get rid of this shop ( _pudgal_ , non-Self complex) and You want to remain the Knower-Seer and in absolute bliss. That is all Your work.

There are certain exceptions in this _lingadeha_. (By this I mean) our _Mahatmas_ still maintain _sansarbhaav_ ('I like this world'). They have company of females ( _strisang_ ) and other such associations are there not? Still, that does not come into the _lingadeha_ ( _bhaavkarma_ ) for him. This is because if he is indeed in doership, if he is 'Chandubhai', then that responsibility is his. Then all this will come into _bhaav_ , but here it all ( _lingdeha-bhaavkarma_ ) goes away. That is it, so much change happens.

##  When Will That Recurrant Cycle of Bondage Break?

**Questioner** : _Bhaavkarma_ happen due to _dravyakarma_ , and because of _bhaavkarma_ , _dravyakarma_ is bound. And so if it continues like that, then when will chain of life after life break?

**Dadashri** : _Bhaavkarma_ means charge karma. From that charge karma , discharge karma continues to happen. If that charge is stopped, then the solution is attained. It will continue by itself. If one knows how to stop, it will stop, and then _moksha_ will happen. Otherwise, unless it stops, if there is no one to stop that, it will continue for infinite lives. Charge and discharge, charge and discharge. Cause and effect, effect and cause, cause and effect, effect and causes. Causes and effect, effect and causes. This continues day and night.

**Questioner** : How can one know that causes have stopped?

**Dadashri** : This _Gnan_ 'we' gave You, did You not realise that?

**Questioner** : Yes.

**Dadashri** : That is it; causes stop immediately. Someone may say, 'How can I know that I am no longer hungry? Then the answer is, 'Go ahead and eat, eat in my presence, and you will know.' Eat whatever you want to, even _khichadee_ (cooked rice and lentils) will do, will it not? You will know it just like that; you will surely know that.

##  Constant Natural Compassion

**Questioner:** You are saying that the compassion of the _Gnani_ is natural, it is not a discharge karma effect. So then do the _Tirthankaras_ (the fully enlightened beings) bind _tirthankara gotra karma_ (to become a Tirthankara) naturally or with deep inner intent (as a _bhaavkarma_ of previous life)?

**Dadashri:** They are binding with _bhaav_ karma. Yet their compassion is natural. The nature of compassion is spontaneous, there is no activity involved, there is no doer. One charges (binds) a karma with _bhaavkarma_ (causal karma- 'I am Chandulal').

**Questioner:** Do the _Tirthankaras_ bind this _bhaavkarma_ at the time of attaining Self-realization?

**Dadashri:** That _bhaavkarma_ is indeed after Self-realization, but it is after the right Vision—'I am pure Soul' ( _samkit_ ) happens. After the right Vision ( _samyaktva_ ) is attained, there exists the deep inner intent ( _bhaav_ ), 'let the suffering humanity attain this bliss that I have attained.' That is the _bhaavkarma_ , the charge karma. That is how one binds the _tirthankara gotra._ I too have the same _bhaav_ , that may the world attain this bliss.

Compassion ( _karuna_ ) is natural indeed. Just as it is: spontaneous compassion. If someone were to abuse me, then also the natural forgiveness ( _sahaj kshama_ ) is there. Forgiveness is the naturally existing compassion. So compassion is a natural attribute, whereas kindness -mercy is the effect of _bhaavkarma_. After becoming a _Tirthankara_ , there is no _bhaavkarma_. _Bhaavkarma_ (charge karma) was there in their previous life. I still have this pending _bhaavkarma_ of wanting the entire world to attain salvation. The _Tirthankara_ had charged for becoming a _Tirthankara_ on the very day they had the inner intent of salvation of the entire world. So the effect of the karma that was charged is evident now. Theirs is the absolute compassion ( _keval karuna_ ). Their compassion is continuous and constant. They do not have any _bhaav_ -charge karma. As long as any _bhaav_ karma exists, there is no _kevalGnan_ (absolute Knowledge).

**Questioner:** But this intent ( _bhaav_ ) of salvation for the world, is that not a charge intent-- _bhaav_?

**Dadashri** : No, that _bhaav_ that is happening, is not _bhaav._ It is not what the Lord means by charge _bhaav._ We are talking about one to two more lives, and someone might get filled with this _bhaav_ (charge _bhaav_ ) to become instrumental in the salvation of the world ( _jagat kalyan_ ). What it does mean, is that the _Tirthankara_ had had this charge _bhaav_ that the bliss that I am experiencing, may everyone experience that. This is the only charge (cause) for them. But it is not possible for everyone to have such a _bhaav_. Most do have the general intermittent desire that all living beings should attain liberation. It is not one's main _bhaav_ intent, to have the salvation for the entire world. Only few people would have that inner intent for the world's ultimate salvation. Everyone does not have it. It is possible for a person, only when he meets with all the circumstances from all around that establishes the _bhaav_. It is not possible that this will happen for everyone. Yes, the longing, 'let all humanity attain this bliss that I have,' is a worthy one to have. Such effect ( _bhavnaa_ ) should be there, nothing else. The rest we have brought along with us from our past life, have we not? That is the credit- 'bank balance'- that we are suffering in this life. Moreover, what is the big deal about spending that credit? Therefore, do we not need to take up something worthwhile in the task of salvation of the world? Should we not take a share of that?

*****

#  [2.13]

#  Nokarma

##  No Obstruction if There is Gnan

**Questioner** : Dadaji, please say something on _nokarma_. People still do not really understand about _nokarma_.

**Dadashri** : No will know about _nokarma_ , will one?

**Questioner** : No one knows much about it. So please explain in detail today again, in todays _satsang_.

**Dadashri** : _Nokarma_ means that these karma do not affect You if you are the Self, and they do affect you if you are Chandubhai. That is called _nokarma_.

**Questioner** : How did the word _nokarma_ come about? Why did they use the word 'no'?

**Dadashri** : It is not the alphabets, 'N O'. If You have the _Gnan_ , it will not touch You, and if there is no _Gnan_ then it will 'touch' (affect) you. So then they are insignificant. They are and they are not there, and that is why they are referred to as _nokarma_.

**Questioner** : So there are two possibilities in it.

**Dadashri** : No, it is not like that. Karma are bound to affect one, but if one has _Gnan_ , he will not be affected. That is why 'we' call it _nokarma_.

Those who said it must be smart, they do seem somewhat smart, do they not? How wise, they called both karma, _nokarma_. You have _nokarma_ , and he has _nokarma_ also. _Nokarma_ will look the same, will they not? Now, how would they know that it will sprout (affect) him, and not affect the other person? People do not know that, do they? If they were so smart, they will look for it. Today's people do not have such sense, I think.

**Questioner** : Dada, this is a very deep understanding;then only this discovery must have been made, right?

**Dadashri** : _Nokarma_. This karma will 'grow' for the whole world (not Self realized). This is all _nokarma_. Still we say it is _nokarma_ that, for a _Gnani_ (Self-realised) they do not 'grow', they will look the same. So they will look just like these, no change can be seen. But the Lord says that he does not want to see any change. It will not grow for Him because has the _Gnan_. And it will grow for you (the one without _Gnan_ ). We do not have to see if it there is a change (in conduct) or not.

**Questioner** : Does _Gnani_ not have doership in this?

**Dadashri** : No.That is why it will not grow. Karma will appear the same for both. He is scolding and the other person is scolding too. The people will say what is the difference between the two doing the scolding? No, there is a great difference. He carries a visa (for _moksha_ ) and those others do not. They will let the one with the visa sit, and send the other one back.

**Questioner** : So Dada, where the ego is not, anything that happens naturally and spontaneously, is it called _nokarma_?

**Dadashri** : It will not go away as long as 'I am Chandulal'. It depends on which direction is 'his' fundamental awareness is. Is 'his' awareness is in 'I am Chandubhai', or is it in 'I am _Shuddhatma_ '? So if 'Your' Vision is turned around, if it is _samyak_ Vision (That which Sees the Self), then You will not bind karma on this path. And you will bind karma if this current vision ('I am Chandulal') remains. That is why Lord calls it _nokarma_.

##  Nokarma is Experienced Through Senses

And what _nokarma_ is that it is that which is visible to the eyes, can be heared by the ears, can be tasted by the tongue. Hence, anything that can be experienced through the five senses, that happen through the mind are all _nokarma_. The mind is the inspirer of this. Then, whatever is experienced through _buddhi_ (intellect), chit, ego, they are all _nokarma_. If you take away _bhaavkarma_ , take away anger-pride-deceit-greed, then all the rest are _nokarma_. And anger-pride-deceit-greed are not gross, they are subtle. When one does _gusso_ (anger without violent intent, without ego) within, it is not _krodha_ (anger with violent intent, with ego). _Gusso_ is a result (effect). All the karma you see or experience, they are all _nokarma_. The whole world is sitting only on _nokarma_. But it does not bind for the people, just that ( _nokarma_ only). That is why I say that except for _bhaavkarma_ , the rest are _nokarma_. This cannot be understood completely.

**Questioner** : What is considered _nokarma_ , please give an example of it.

**Dadashri** : All these karma are _nokarma_. Your coming here, going upstairs and coming down, come and go, eat and drink, do business, it is all _nokarma_. Those that do not have anger-pride-deceit-greed in them, they are all _nokarma_.. Now if you have greed ( _lobha_ ) in your business, it is not considered _nokarma_ , if greed is ingrained in it.

**Questioner** : Please give one example of _nokarma_? How does all that happen?

**Dadashri** : You will eat something sweet you like; it is still _nokarma_. You will not bind any karma. Even when You say, 'It is very good, it is like this and it is like that, I like the taste of it', You, the one with _Gnan_ will not bind karma, that is called _nokarma_.

**Questioner** : That is correct. You have now removed our _bhaavkarma_.

**Dadashri** : Yes, _bhavkarmas_ have been removed.

**Questioner** : So, we do not have all the four _kashayas_ (anger, pride, deceit and greed).

**Dadashri** : You do not have any charge _kashayas_ at all. You have discharge _kashayas_ , and 'we' have placed pure Self absolutely separate.

To slap someone is also _nokarma_. Can anyone slap someone without _krodha_ (anger with violent intent-ego)? Can a father slap his son? Now a slap is _nokarma_. If _krodha_ happening too; then it is _bhaavkarma_. The two become separate.

If you slap this man and people come and tell me, 'What is this considered?' I will reply, 'This is just his _nokarma_.' If they say, 'He was angry at that time', even then it is not _bhaavkarma_ , because I have given him _Gnan_ , and so his anger-pride-deceit-greed are in the form of discharge. A new karma is bound if it is in a form of charge. So it is very important to understand this. The one who has understood this science will find the (final) solution.

##  Every activity is nokarma

Any activity ( _kriya_ ) is called _nokarma_. Acttivity is not the cause of the problem, if the awareness is towards worldly life, then it will latch on to you, and if Your Vision is towards the Self, then it will not latch on to you. That is what it says. It depends which way is your vision.

What is visible or that which you can experience with this body or senses, eating-drinking, going and coming, staying, doing business, bowing down, all those karma are _nokarma_. Drinking water, standing up, sitting down, coming here, screaming, yawning, they are all different kinds of _nokarma_.

All these karma visible to the eyes, those that are in the worldly life, they are all _nokarma_. One doing worship is also _nokarma_ , doing _swadhyaya_ (study of the Self) is also _nokarma_. When he is going to _upashraya_ (Jain temple), it is _nokarma_ everything is _nokarma_. When a person is doing evening prayer, turns rosary beads, they are all _nokarma_. Giving a lecture, and also listening to a lecture, they are _nokarma_. It is worth understanding this _nokarma_. It is enough if one understands it. It is not possible to understand it. If one understands _nokarma_ from a _Gnani_ _Purush_ , he can conquer the whole world.

What have scripture writers have written? _Nokarma_ means insignificant karma.

When you get up in the morning, it is _nokarma_. We say, 'I got up and you got up'. And when rest of the people of the world say that, they are saying it from _nokarma_ ( with the belief, 'I am Chandulal') and so they sow seed of karma again. They sow seed from _nokarma_. Otherwise, those seed that are not likely to be sown, you can throw the seed down if you want to, otherwise if there is awareness (of the Self) there, if they have the _Gnan_ , then people will not throw the seed. And even if they have thrown a seed, they will pick it up again ( _pratikraman_ ). There is so much of it (Science) there. Therefore, from the second you get up, getting up itself is _nokarma_. Then seeing is also _nokarma_ , what you hear is _nokarma_. Brushing your teeth, drinking tea, eating breakfast, then everything coming together, it is all _nokarma_. Then when a customer comes and causes any problem, it is all _nokarma_.

This beauty of karma, it is this Dada who gave us. People do not even know what _nokarma_ is. What kind of karma they are. Poor people, because they do not know, they keep getting entangled, and worry that what if it will grow? No it is not likely to grow at all. So You do not interfere, like 'It is very good, you have to eat it'. Go ahead and eat. Seed is sown only when you do anger-pride-deceit-greed. Anger-pride-deceit-greed itself is the seed of karma.

**Questioner** : Hence, is _nokarma_ what we do during the twenty-four hours?

**Dadashri** _:_ But these are all fruit (effect) of karma.

**Questioner** : Whatever activity is done by the _prakruti_ (the formed non-Self complex), and you can see that as the Seer, is that called _nokarma_?

**Dadashri** : The essential thing is that whatever the _prakruti_ does, in which there is no _bhaavkarma_ ; it is all _nokarma_.

_Nokarma_ is such a thing that the karma, which are known as necessity, they are all _nokarma_. Human necessities. Did you not understand necessities? Can you do without eating? Even _Gnani_ has to eat, does he not? Can you do without going to the toilet? Can you do without sleep?

**Questioner** : No, we cannot at all.

**Dadashri** : Then, can you do without drinking water? They are all the necessities. All the necessities of this body are called _nokarma_.

Even if you do not want to eat in a restaurant, and you are hungry and you do not get to eat any food, then you have to go to any restaurant and feed this body, they are all _nokarma_.

One gets married, bears children, all that is _nokarma_. All activity without _raag-dwesh_ (attachment-abhorrence) are _nokarma_. The reason the Lord called it _nokarma_ is that if 'you' do it without _raag_ - _dwesh_ , it will not stick to you. If you do it with _raag-dwesh_ , it will stick to you.

##  Because You are not the Doer

_Nokarma_ means that this karma will not be an impediment if You are on the way to _moksha_. And if you are on the path of worldly life ( _sansar_ ), this karma will help you in the worldly life.

**Questioner** : How can _nokarma_ help one in the worldly life?

**Dadashri** : All these karma help in the worldly life, do they not? One eats, drinks, plays, jumps around, goes out with his wife and children, goes to watch a movie, they are all _nokarma_ , are they not?

**Questioner** : How are they not impediment on the path to _moksha_?

**Dadashri** : It is because He is not the doer. His ownership is not there. He is not responsible for the ownership. No title. I have taken them away, both, the ownership and the title. So his responsibility is not there.

**Questioner** : Why is there no doership ( _kartabhaav_ )?

**Dadashri** : When I gave 'You' the _Gnan_ , did I not tell You that _vyavasthit_ is the doer, not You? Did I not tell You that? Do you remember that? So You are not a doer anymore. You do not have doership within. Because doership exists as long as, 'I am Chandubhai' by _nischaya_ (real beleif). To really believe that 'I am Chandubhai' is itself the state of doership. That is gone. So it does not remain anymore.

So Your _nokarma_ will not grow (into _bhaavkarma_ ), and for others it grows. For You it does not grow because you are no more the doer of the _nokarma_. And they are doers, therefore the moment they say, 'I did it', they support it and thus bind karma. By saying, 'I did not do it', You take away its support, it falls off. If you ask, 'Who did it if you did not?' he will say, 'the Knower will Know, I do not want to interfere in it. I have not done this. Such is my experience.' Does that happen or not?

You have to understand _nokarma_. What does _nokarma_ mean? All the worldly interactions you do, the ones that _vyavasthit_ does, they are all _nokarma_.

**Questioner** : Those who have not attained _Gnan_ , for them can it be called _nokarma_?

**Dadashri** : For them too, it can be called _nokarma_ , but for them they can grow because the presence of 'I am doing it.' And for us it is, 'I am not the doer, _vyavasthit_ is doing it', and so it will not grow. So the worldly life ends. Causes have stopped, so they drop off. Karma exist as long as they are supported. No one is there to bother You if You do not give it a support. If You call the doer the doer, then we do not have any problem. When one is not doing it, and says, 'I am doing it', then there will be binding (of karma). That is why Narsinh Mehta said, ' _Hoon karoo, hoon karoo, eyja aGnanta.'_ 'I am doing, I am doing, is indeed ignorance'.

**Questioner** : Dada, the support we were giving, we put itat your feet at the time of _Gnan_.

**Dadashri** : The one giving the support was surrendered, with, 'I surrender all of that, (to you, Sir). You surrendered what gave it the support.

##  All Charitramoha are Nokarma

**Questioner** : Is everything that is in the _charitramoha_ , _nokarma_?

**Dadashri** : All other karma of _charitra moha_ , they are all _nokarma_. When people say, 'This man has not changed. He is the same.' The Lord calls it _nokarma_. _Nokarma_ means they have to be suffered.

**Questioner** : Many times other people ( who are not _Mahatmas_ ) tell me that they do not see any change in our _Mahatmas_.

**Dadashri** : They cannot see the change; to them they look the same. People look for a change.

**Questioner** : They look for the external change.

**Dadashri** : External, what else? They do not know how to see anything else, do they? Would their work have not been done if they knew how to see other things (more subtly)? What they tell our _Mahatmas_ is that you have taken _Gnan_ from Dada, but you are still the same. Outwardly, you used to get upset before, and you still get upset. But Your _bhaavkarma_ are gone, only _nokarma_ remain.

And _nokarma_ is divided into two parts. You have _charitra mohaniya_ , and that other person has _mohaniya karma_ , complete _mohaniya_. So they have both, _darshan moha_ and _charitra moha_ , and that is called _mohaniya_. 'Your' _darshan moha_ is gone.

What this really means is that these ( _Mahatmas_ ) are with _chatitra moha_ (only), and those ( _non Mahatmas_ ) are with real _moha_. Seed will grow for those with real _moha_ , and not for these _Mahatmas_. There are karma, but they are _nokarma_.

**Questioner** : So _nokarma_ is also for those with the real _moha_?

**Dadashri** : Yes, they too have _nokarma_ but their _nokarma_ will grow and for these, it will not. All these _vartan_ (conduct) _moha_ , they are _nokarma_. If you have _moha_ , then you are responsible for these karma, and if You are without _moha_ , then You are not responsible for them. How can one understand the minuteness of this detail? Where is man's capability? How can he even remember this?

##  Akram Path : Kramic path

**Questioner** : This _nokarma_ , is it all what we call discharge?

**Dadashri** : That is it; discharge.

**Questioner** : Does charging not happen at the time of discharge, some times?

**Dadashri** : This is how it is: this word 'discharge' is not of _kramic_ path.

**Questioner** : Yes, it is of the _Akram_.

**Dadashri** : This, becoming angry, getting irritated they all come nto _nokarma_. For us everything is discharge karma. However _nokarma_ has to be separated in the _kramic_ path. Where no _raag_ - _dwesh_ happens, that part is all _nokarma_. Such is the account. When anger-pride-deceit-greed happen, they are all _bhaavkarma_ and the rest are _nokarma_. There are not many circumstances in (formation of) _bhaavkarma_. One or two, they are _naimitik_ (evidentiary) causes. And what happens based on circumstance is _nokarma._

In the _Akram_ _Vignan_ , 'we' have not kept any value to the _nokarma_. Otherwise, can 'we' give _Gnan_ of liberation to people living a worldly life? How long will it last? But, as this is _Akram_ _Vignan_ , _nokarma_ is not an impediment. Otherwise _nokarma_ itself is the impediment in _kramik_ path. They have so many difficulties, whereas do you have any difficulty? Dada will not scold you even if you eat a wonderful lunch and go to the office. So what is wrong with that? You have to remain within Dada's _Agna_ , that is all. And also _Agna_ is not difficult, is it?

Now You have to settle files with equanimity. If you have to brush your teeth, it is a file. If someone comes to see you, it is a file also. Sleep is also a file. So, settling all the files with equanimity makes it _nokarma_. Entire _bhaavkarma_ has been removed.

**Questioner** : So, does _nokarma_ mean all this fruit-results?

**Dadashri** : All this fruit. So it will feel sweet, it will feel bitter. Both have to be settled with equanimity, and so it will begin to become cleared.

**Questioner** : At every place? At every second? One has to take all this in _dhyan_ (awareness here) in every situation?

**Dadashri** : But that is not the case for You. This is because You are sitting in the _Akram_ _Vignan_. Those in the _kramic_ path have to do that in everything. When he says that today the sweet is very nice, it sticks to you. And when he says that the vegetable is bad, it will stick to him. But when You say good or bad, nothing sticks to you.

**Questioner** : We would not say that at all, now.

**Dadashri** : But there is no problem in saying that; it will not stick to You because it is a discharge. It is a discharge, but it is not of the live individual, (it is of the non-Self complex only). The 'battery cells' of the three batteries (mind, speech and body) continue to discharge, do You have to do anything in that? They will discharge as long is there is charge in them; then there will come an end to them.

**Questioner** : The settlement has happened, the method has changed after attaining the _Gnan_ , silence is golden.

**Dadashri** : Yes, You are to 'See' when you say anything, and You also are to 'See' when you remain silent. When someone says that you are not saying anything, You 'See' that too.

##  Understanding of Nokashaya

_Nokashaya_ is a relative word that, if 'You' have attained _Gnan_ , these _kashayas_ will not touch You, but they will touch you if you have not attained _Gnan_. Hence _nokashaya_ has been used in the relative sense. It is worth understanding, if you understand just one sentence of the _vitarags_ , you will go to _moksha_. If one digests just one sentence, he will go to _moksha_.

**Questioner** : There, they define _nokashaya_ as, that what is not a _kashaya_ , but they are like _kashaya_ , they are as _nimit_ (evidentiary) for doing _kashaya_.

**Dadashri** : That is correct. That meaning is not wrong. As long as people do not have _Gnan_ , they are all _nimit_ in doing _kashaya_ , are they not? When the other person makes fun of him, he became irritated, thus _nimit_ arises again, does it not? And You do not bind karma even if you make fun of someone. You just have to do _pratikraman_ for the pain you caused him. And 'You' do not have the authority to do that, You have to tell Chandubhai, 'Why did you do that? Do you not have any sense, now that you are this old? Do _pratikraman_.' 'You' should tell him, 'You are old now, you are now a grandfather and you are doing this?' 'You' can say that, can You not?

**Questioner** : Yes.

**Dadashri** : Yes, You have to say that, who else can say that? If someone else says so, then you will beat him up.

One has to understand this sometime, but it he cannot do so in this time era. There is nobody's fault in this. The words that have been written are fine. Some differences will remain, between our _Akram Vignan_ and _kramik_ path. They will never mean the same, because that is _kram_ and this is _Akram_. All these people have taken _Gnan_ ; that is why 'we' have told them that they do not bind karma. Therefore, 'we' have said that they are all _nokarma_ ( _nokashaya_ ). Now tell me, how can those people (non _Mahatmas_ ) believe that, so then they will get irritated, they will pick up a stick and beat you up, will they not?

**Questioner** : You called those _nokashaya nokarma_ , so then the quartet of _anantanubandhi_ _kashaya_ , _pratyakhyani_ _kashaya_ , _apratyakhyani_ _kashaya_ , what can we call that?

**Dadashri** : Yes, that is indeed the _bhaavkarma_. There is no doubt whether it is _anantanubandhi_ or anything else, but it is _bhaavkarma_.

Now, in the _kramic_ path _nokarma_ are of different types. They have nine kinds of _nokarma_. They are _rati_ (like), _arati_ (aversion), _haashya_ (laughter), _bhaya_ (fear), _juguptsa_ (disgust), _shoka_ (grief), _purushveda_ (sexual craving of a male for a female), _striveda_ (sexual craving of a female for a male), and _napunsakveda_ (sexual craving of a bisexual ). And we did _vyapar_ (wholesale business), did the opposite (in _Akram_ ). Entire _vishaya_ (sexuality) everything we call as _nokarma_.

**Questioner** : Does _juguptsa_ (disgust) mean dhruna (heavy scorn) _bhaav_ , or _dhikkar_ (scorn) _bhaav_ , or _chitri_?

**Dadashri** : One will have _chitri_ (disgust). There is no _chitri_ in _tiraskar_ (scorn; contempt). This happens to you ( _Mahatma_ ) but we consider it a _nokarma_ , it is not _raag_ - _dwesh_ (attachment-abhorrence). If one steps into something very dirty, his face and all will show disgust. Hey, why did it become like you just swallowed castor oil? Worse than castor oil. The Lord says, 'we' do not call that karma ( _bhaavkarma_ ). After this happens, if he fights with the other person, then he binds karma ( _bhaavkarma_ ).

Now if someone is walking oddly and he sees that as strange and laughs. Now that laugh is considered as without fault, only if he does not make a mistake of hurting the man. So it does not affect our _mahatmas_ , does it? Our _mahatmas_ will not play mischief again, will they? They will settle it with equanimity. They will laugh, and they will joke; joke is just as a laugh, it does not result in any _raag_ - _dwesh_.

It is said that in those all nine karma, one can remain without any raag-dwesh, and that is why they are called _nokarma_. How wise these people are, those who said that!

**Questioner** : Dada, how can fear ( _bhaya_ ) be without any _raag_ - _dwesh_?

**Dadashri** : One can remain without _raag_ - _dwesh_ even in (circumstance of) fear. I will give you an example of that. I have given this man the _Gnan_ , he does _vidhi_ here. He is reciting, 'I am _Shuddhatma_. I am _Shuddhatma_ ', and a blast happens over there, his whole body will shake, which I will know also. He has that fear. But external fear ( _bhaya_ ) is considered startling or fright ( _bhadkat_ ). Internal fear ( _bhaya_ ) is considered _bhaya_. He just had the external fear ( _bhadkat_ ), and not inner fear ( _bhaya_ ).

**Questioner** : He had _bhadkat_ , but the word _bhaya_ one uses...

**Dadashri** : That is in one's own language (interpretation).

**Questioner** : Even in the language we should understand it as _bhadkat_.

**Dadashri** : You have to understand it as _bhadkat_. Everything heads in the wrong direction, because they said it to mean _bhaya_. There are many words that need to be changed.

One is not likely to find the main word. You will find all the words and facts about them from a _Gnani_ _Purush_. As long as one experiences fear, he has not attained the Self at all, and if one takes fear into _nokarma_ , it is meaningless.

So _nokarma_ is like this, just _bhadkat_. Therefore, there is tremendous stillness in us. As long as there are certain kinds of noises, 'we' are not affected. If 'we' have never before, in the last life or prior lives, heard them, and if suddenly some new sound comes out, then it –the body has a startle reaction. 'We' do not lose our stillness.

These _mahatmas_ do not lose their stillness at all, the body may become shaken up a little like this.

##  Prarabdha is Indeed Nokarma

Now, if you look for another meaning of _nokarma_ , then what is it? It is _prarabdha karma_ (effect of past karma). It is not _sanchit_ (not accumulated karma).

**Questioner** : Has some part of _sanchit_ come into _prarabdha_ (effect)?

**Dadashri** : That _prarabdha_ is now ready to give effect. _Sanchitkarma_ are the eight karma: _Gnanavaran_ , _Darshanavaran_ , _mohaniya_ , _antaraya_ , _vedaniya_ , _naam, gotra, ayushya._ From them, whatever unfolds, are ready to give fruits are _prarabdha karma_. There may be mangos for twenty years, twenty five years or fifty years in a tree; but what unfolds (bear fruit) in this one year, that much is _prarabdha karma_. Therefore _nokarma_ is _prarabdha karma_.

##  Nokarma Means Akarma

**Questioner** : Dada, are we to understand that whatever happens automatically from past _dravyakarma_ is _nokarma_? So then, Dada there must be some reason for _nokarma_ to happen, right?

**Dadashri** : Even when you can see someone doing karma,.it is _nokarma_ if the inner state is _akarma_ (karma are not charging). It is considered _akarma_ when One has become a _Shuddhatma_. Otherwise it is considered a _sakarma_ (with binding karma). Therefore, _bhaavkarma_ arises in whatever an _aGnani_ does. From that _bhaavkarma_ arises _dravya karma_.

**Questioner** : So then this is a process, is not?

**Dadashri** : Anger-pride-deceit-greed are woven in this activity. In any activity, there is always anger, pride, greed or something. If you go to a shop, there is always something. _Dravya karma_ arises from what is woven within (carried over from past life).

After 'we' give You the _Gnan_ , You stop binding karma. Only karma you bind are the ones from following the five Agnas thay You have been given. Otherwise karma are bound only when you have the belief, 'I am Chandubhai and I did this'. You are not Chandubhai anymore, that is decided, is it not? You are Chandubhai by worldly interaction ( _vyavahar_ ), but not as the Self ( _nischaya_ ), so karma will not be bound at all. The one (ego) binding the karma is gone. Karma is bound as long as there is egoism.

**Questioner** : Can we call _nokarma_ as _akarma_ for our _Mahatmas_?

**Dadashri** : After attaining _Gnan_ , they are all considered _akarma_. People will know and see that you are doing karma, but it is _akarma_ , because You are not the owner of that karma. For other people in the world, _bhaavkarma_ sows seeds and then bear fruits of those seeds.

**Questioner** : What if they do not sow the seeds?

**Dadashri** : Then this world would not be there, would it? Seed is sown because his vision ( _drashti_ ) is wrong, so then how can he have the control? All these diseases will leave when someone helps him change that vision, otherwise this disease of worldly life will not leave.

*****

#  [2.14]

#  Dravykarma + Bhaavkarma + Nokarma

##  How Much Doership is There in These Three Karma?

**Questioner** : So then how is _bhaavkarma_ different from _nokarma_? Please explain that in detail.

**Dadashri** : Yes, I will explain that. It is very important thing to understand.

All this is due to these three karma. When people say I am binding karma, they are these three, which have been separated in different parts.

_Bhaaavkarma_ , _dravykarma_ , _nokarma_ – only these three karma have given rise to the world. It will end when all the three are removed. There are three kinds of karma, there is no fourth kind. _Dravyakarma_ is not under one's control. _Dravyakarma_ is an effect, and so is the _nokarma_. But one is not a doer of _dravyakarma_ at all, whereas one can be a doer or a non-doer of _nokarma_. In _aGnan_ (ignorance of the Self) one becomes the doer of _nokarma_ , and one is a non-doer in the state of _Gnan_. But which karma does the main work? _Bhaavkarma_. One indeed becomes the doer of _bhaavkarma_ in the ignorant state. When anger-pride-deceit-greed are not there, when they go away, that is the end, there is liberation.

**Questioner** :Therefore, is there not a line of demarcation between _bhaavkarma_ and _dravyakarma_?

**Dadashri** : _Dravyakarma_ is a different thing; _dravyakarma_ means that you will see yellow if you have yellow glasses over your eyes, you will see red if the glasses are red. The main thing (the Vision as the Self) is not like that. That is why _bhaavkarma_ arises in 'him' (the ego). And what happens again with that _bhaavkarma_? _Bhaavkarma_ , _nokarma_ come together and give rise to _dravyakarma_ again. Therefore, effect from cause, and cause from the effect again. This is all a collection of cause and effect.

##  Bhaavkarma Results in Dravyakarma and Nokarma

Therefore, the mother (root cause) of _bhaavkarma_ is _dravyakarma_. Who then is the mother of _bhaavkarma_ if it is the son? It is _dravyakarma_. If _dravyakarma_ is the son, then who is the mother? It is the scientific circumstantial evidence. This is just a question of this one generation. After scientific circumstantial evidence it becomes _dravyakarma_. And it will not stop from becoming _bhaavkarma_ from _dravyakarma_. Then what is the result of _bhaavkarma_? Effect of _bhaavkarma_ is _dravyakarma_ , and the fruit arising out of _dravyakarma_ (in the current life) is all _nokarma_. So, _dravyakarma_ is formation of this body, and the 'bandages'(colored glasses) arising. These bandages means _Gnanavaran_ , _Darshanavaran_ , _mohaniya_ and _antaraya_. Then this body means, _naam_ , _ayushya_ , _gotra_ and _vedaniya_. You received this body as a result (effect) of the karma 'you' caused. Now the karma of mind-speech-body that have to be suffered are _nokarma_.

**Questioner** : Is the body a medium for _dravyakarma_ , or is it itself a _dravyakarma_?

**Dadashri** : The body is _dravyakarma_ , and it is a medium for _bhaavkarma_. What is _dravykarma_? Result (effect). _Dravyakarma_ arises from _bhaavkarma_ associated with _dehadhyas_ (belief 'I am this body'), and as result a new body is formed. _Shata vedaniya_ (pleasure karma) and _ashata vedaniya_ (pain karma) arise and (new) wrong 'bandages' are created (in ignorance). Therefore _Gnanavaran_ , _Darshanavaran_ , _mohaniya_ and _antaraya_ , they all come into _dravyakarma_.

##  Bhaavkarma is not Under one's Control

So, it is _bhaav_ from _dravya_ , and _dravya_ from _bhaav_. It is like the oak tree from a seed, and a seed from the oak tree. One does _bhaavkarma_ , he does not do the _dravyakarma_. _Dravyakarma_ is the result. _Dravyakarma_ means the result (effect) of the _bhaavkarma_. One is the 'doer' of an exam (takes an exam), but can he be the 'doer' of its result?

**Questioner** : Real doer is _bhaavkarma_ , is it not?

**Dadashri** : Yes, but that is also a _naimitik_ (apparent, evidentiary) doer, not a real doer. It is not exactly the doer. If it was exact, one would change it around and it will take him immediately to _moksha_. As a result of the 'pressure' (influence) from the past, one is very happy. Hence through pressure from pleasure circumstances, all the _bhaavkarma_ of pleasure are bound, he will have good thoughts of merit deeds ( _punyai_ ). When there is pressure of pain, then thoughts of bed deeds ( _paap_ ) will come together. _Bhaav_ will happen even if one does not want such _bhaav_. Therefore _bhaavkarma_ is not under anyone's control.

**Questioner** : You had said that no one in this world has understood _bhaavkarma_ , and that, 'I will bown down to the one who has understood it'.

**Dadashri** : But how can one understand? Is it easy to understand _bhaavkarma_? To understand _bhaavkarma_ means to stop _bhaav_. He will stop _bhaav_ if he understood it. People have understood _bhaavkarma_ in their own language (interpretation). If one understands that 'bandage'(colored glasses) on the eyes, then he can understand _bhaavkarma_.

##  Only the Vision has Changed

But it is because of _dravyakarma_ that _bhaavkarma_ happens, otherwise _bhaavkarma_ will not happen. Now _bhaavkarma_ is charge karma. Charge karma done in the past life, and in this life you have to suffer _nokarma_ as the fruit, in the form of discharge. _Nokarma_ is not of much value; value lies in the _bhaavkarma_. All the discharge karma are _nokarma_ ; and causes that arise from them are _bhaavkarma_ , they are the ones that do the charging. But all this is because of the _nimit_ of _dravyakarma_. Now, what 'we' have changed in this _dravyakarma_ is your vision. The vision that, 'I am Chandubhai' and 'I am her husband' is removed and 'we' gave you the _Darshan_ (Vision) of 'I am _Shuddhatma'_. Now the Vision is changed. That other vision was becoming veiled, and thus giving you the wrong knowledge. With this changed Vision, _gnan_ (knowledge) changes, and so also conduct changes.

##  Only Tirthankaras can see Dravyakarma

**Questioner** : Please tell us how one can know _dravyakarma_?

**Dadashri** : It is widely propogated in the worldly language that whatever karma carried out through the senses, is all _dravykarma_. But they are really _nokarma_. Within the senses, in the _antahkaran_ (inner complex of the mind, intellect, chit and ego) they are all evident, those that are visible are _nokarma_. Besides them, are other karma, _bhaavkarma_ , which are not visible and which only the _Gnanis_ can See.

**Questioner** : What are _nokarma_?

**Dadashri** : They are all those you can see.

**Questioner** : _Dravykarma_?

**Dadashri** : _Dravyakarma_ are those that you cannot see. I can understand _dravykarma_ , but only _Tirthankaras_ can See them. I can understand them, but you cannot even understand them.

##  Subtle Difference Between Bhaavkarma and Nokarma

**Questioner** : Please explain the subtle difference between _bhaavkarma_ and _nokarma_ with an example.

**Dadashri** : What is _bhaavkarma_? Say if five to seven people come to your home at eleven at night, you may say, 'Welcome, welcome', but in your mind you feel, 'Why the fools have to come this late at night?' Saying, 'Welcome, welcome', is _nokarma_. And, 'Why the fools have to come this late at night?' is _bhaavkarma_.

_Nokarma_ is clearly visible. All this quarrelling and fighting, cheating in broad daylight, doing anything, is all _nokarma_. And internally when there is, 'Why the fools have to come this late at night?' that is negative _bhaav_ within, while showing the external as positive. This is the deceit ( _kapat_ ) in the inner intent ( _bhaav_ ).

Externaly you welcome them nicely, while being deceitful within. That is called _maya_ (deceit). Hence, anything done based on anger-pride-deceit-greed, is all _bhaavkarma_.

Now, when guests come and you say, 'Welcome' (which is _nokarma_ ), along that if you had decided that it was a nice thing to say that, then good _bhaavkarma_ happen along with the _nokarma_. So then the light of _dravykarma_ in the next life will increase, and veil of ignorance would have been thin. But when within happens that, 'Why the fools have to come this late at night?', then ( _ashubha_ ) inauspicious _bhaavkarma_ happens. And because of that the veil of ignorance of _dravyakarma_ for the next life, increases. This darkness that happened of _Gnanavaran_ and _Darshanavaran_ , is _dravyakarma_. These three are in just this one sentence, are they not? Did you understand?

**Questioner** : Now, if we say, 'Welcome', aloud, and also there is a good intent within, then what is that?

**Dadashri** : That is also _bhaavkarma_. That other was inauspicious _bhaavkarma_ , fruit of which will be _paap_ karma (sin karma), and fruit of that other will be _punyai_ karma (merit karma), that is all. But, they are both _bhaavkarma_.

Therefore, when it happens in the mind, 'Why the fools have to come this late at night?' you bind sin karma, fruit of such _bhaav_ will be sin karma effect. You will have to suffer pain for that. If you do good _bhaav_ , the fruit will be good.

Effect of _bhaavkarma_ is _dravyakarma_ of the next life, so body is bound from this. And from that _nokarma_ arise, _nokarma_ are all visible to you. When you say, 'Welcome', it is _nokarma_. And _bhaav_ (inner intent) that, 'Why the fools have to come this late at night?'; is _bhaavkarma_. Now, as _dravyakarma_ , the fruit of it will be in the form of a dog in the next life, and whoever comes, they will push him (the dog) around, 'Get away from here, get lost from here.'

##  If You do not Become the Owner You Become Free From Karma

This discharge anger-pride-deceit-greed is _nokarma_ , and real anger-pride-deceit-greed that happens is _bhaavkarma_.

**Questioner** : Dada, is _bhaavkarma_ also based on accumulated karma ( _sanchit karma_ ) from the past life, or is it based on _purushartha_?

**Dadashri** : The _bhaavkarma_ that are bound, they happen from that 'candle', based on the eight karma ( _dravyakarma_ ).

**Questioner** : So then where is the _purushartha_ in this?

**Dadashri** : There is no _purushartha_. _Purushartha_ is when _bhaavkarma_ happens You Know and Be in equanimity.

**Questioner** : Bringing that into equanimity is also dependent on karma, is it not?

**Dadashri** : No, not dependent on karma, it is dependent on _Gnan_.

**Questioner** : If this is not part of _purushartha_ , then karma itself will become completely powerful, does it not?

**Dadashri** : Yes, that is correct. Karma is powerladen, that too is _purushartha_. This _purushartha_ is an illusory ( _bhrant_ ) _purushartha_. _Purushartha_ means progress. There are two kinds of progress. One is real _purushartha_ , _purushartha_ after one becomes a _Purush_ (Self-realised), to progress through that (as the Self). And this illusory _purushartha_ , one progress in that also. So this _purusharth_ will help one. After attaining _Gnan_ You do not have any _bhaavkarma_ , no matter what you do, because You are following Dada's _Agnas_. What is _bhaavkarma_? It is a _bhaavkarma_ , whether you do good or you do bad. It is _bhaavkarma_ as long as one is a doer. Whatever is discharge, it is _nokarma_. And charge is _bhaavkarma_.

**Questioner** : It looks like _bhaavkarma_ , but one does not get involved into it and it discharges. So does it become _nokarma_?

**Dadashri** : Therefore it is _nokarma_. People on the outside (non- _Mahatmas_ , those who have not attained _Gnan_ ) enter into it, and so it becomes _bhaavkarma_.

Where did anger bring so much fire from? They were there as _parmanus_. They become gross (visible) and they came out, so they became _nokarma_. You are responsible for what is within; 'you' are the owner of that. There is nothing if You do not become the owner of what comes out. There is nothing if You do not become the owner of anger-pride-deceit-greed.

**Questioner** : What does this 'not becoming the owner' mean?

**Dadashri** : Not to become the owner is the _Gnan_. There is the _Gnan_ of 'Who one is', is there not? Why does one become the owner of anger? It is because of _agnanta_ (ignorance of the Self), because of lack of understanding. One is not the owner, and yet he believes that he is. People on the outside are owners. They are really the owners. You see that, do you not? They seem opulent, do they not?

**Questioner** : So, really the ownership is also a state of belief only, is it not?

**Dadashri** : He is really the owner.

**Questioner** : How is that?

**Dadashri** : Worries and restlessness will not happen if one has not believed that he is the body. He is the owner. Therefore, one who does not have _Gnan_ , he is considered the owner at that time. If you ask him who is saying that? He hwill say, 'Of course, I am saying that'.

**Questioner** : How is it for those who have attained the _Gnan_?

**Dadashri** : They do not become the owners. The mistake does happen for some when they ask, 'Why is this happening, why is this so?' That is all, just a (transient) belief only. But in reality it is not so.

##  All the Activities of the Body are Nokarma

**Questioner** : So where does _nokarma_ come in this body?

**Dadashri** : Every activity is a _nokarma_ , meaning discharge karma. But if one is _aGnani,_ there is charging of new karma. And _Gnani_ will not allow it to be charged.

Eating is also _nokarma_ , but if if it is very spicily hot and _ashata_ (pain) that arises within is _dravyakarma_ (in ignorant state)

**Questioner** : _Upyashnaam_ _karma_ (defame bringing karma) and _yashnaam karma_ (fame bearing karma) will unfold but the interaction from that is considered _nokarma_?

**Dadashri** : That is all _nokarma_. Karma that unfolds and starts giving its fruit is _nokarma_.

**Questioner** : So circumstances of giving the fruit?

**Dadashri** : That is all _nokarma_. Nokarma begins from the second it comes out from within.

**Questioner** : Does _nikachit karma_ (heavy karma that one has no choice but to suffer the effect), is that _nokarma_?

**Dadashri** : Yes, _nikachit_ is even stronger than that.

##  Filled Stock is Dravyakarma, its Expression is Nokarma

**Questioner** : This speech that is spoken, what is it included into? Does it go into _nokarma_?

**Dadashri** : Speech is in two forms. Its main _parmanus_ are of _dravyakaema_. And when it is drawn out from here and the form it comes out is _nokarma_.

**Questioner** : So, what is in a code word form, till it becomes a short hand...

**Dadashri** : All that is in _dravyakarma_ , and what comes out is _nokarma_.

**Questioner** : All that comes out of the mouth is _nokarma_.

**Dadashri** : _Nokarma_ means that You are not the owner and therefore You are not responsible for it. You become responsible if you become the owner.

**Questioner** : And what do the thoughts that come to the mind go into?

**Dadashri** : That is all _nokarma_.

**Questioner** : And all the tubers ( _granthi_ ) in the mind, do they go into _dravyakarma_?

**Dadashri** : Into _dravyakarma_.

**Questioner** : What about chit, intellect and ego?

**Dadashri** : They all go into _dravyakarma_ , but when one begins to use them, they become _nokarma_.

**Questioner** : When they are lying within in subtle form, they are _dravyakarma_ , and when one starts using them, they are _nokarma_.

**Dadashri** : Yes.

##  Vishrasa, Prayogsa, Mishrasa

**Questioner** : So, can _mishrasa_ and _prayogsa_ be considered _dravyakarma_ and _bhaavkarma_ , respectively?

**Dadashri** : _Prayogsa_ happens initially (in the last life). It happens before _dravyakarma_. It happens the moment you say something. _Prayogsa_ , _parmanus_ that were pure ( _vishrasa_ ), and 'you' began to talk. _Parmanus_ entered in the moment you did the _bhaav_ from within. As those _parmanus_ become colored, they become _prayogsa_.

How long is it considered _prayogsa_? These pure _parmanus_ are _vishrasa_. When they enter within (on the soul) when you say anything, they become _prayogsa_. Then it takes a while for them to become _mishrasa_. When they become _mishrasa_ , it is called _dravyakarma_. It cannot be called _dravyakarma_ until then. When _mishrasa_ is happening it is considered _dravyakarma_ , and after becoming _dravyakarma_ , it comes into effect again.

You should not enter too deep into all this. It is not worth getting deep into it. This is a maze. 'We' tell you not to enter into it. Do not enter into it at all. Only the Self is worth Knowing. This other is a maze. Having known the Self, it comes automatically into Your awareness, even if you do not think about it. Does is automatically come into your awareness upon waking up in the middle of the night? It comes to You on its own, does it not?

**Questioner** : It comes to us.

**Dadashri** : That is called direct experience of the _Gnan_. Yes, experiential _Gnan_. Now You have attained the Self. Then what is the point of knowing anything else? The Lord's scripture is very deep. So people are trapped in all kinds of ways in the words.

##  Wrong Vision Causes Bhaavkarma

One does not have to do _dravyakarma_. They arise from _bhaavkarma_. _Dravyakarma_ automatically keeps giving fruit. You have to do all the _nokarma_. _Nokarma_ will not be an impediment if there is no _bhaavkarma_. _Nokarma_ is helpful when there is _bhaavkarma_. You bind _punyai_ (merit) when you do good, and _paap_ (sin) when you do wrong, but that will happen only if there is _bhaavkarma_.

This Vision has changed into wrong vision, and so _bhaavkarma_ begins, _vishesha_ (extra) _bhaav_. Not _swabhaav_ (natural, of the Self) _bhaav_ , but _vishesha_ (extra) _bhaav_. _Bhaavkarma_ keep occurring within, because the vision is wrong. This is my brother-in-law, he is this and he is that, 'I am doing this, and I am doing that', it is all _bhaavkarma_. He is sowing all the seeds.

##  Equanimity Stops Charging Karma

_Bhaavkarma_ arise from _dravyakarma_. When the bitter and sweet are not suffered with equanimity, there is _raag_ (attachment) towards the sweet, and _dwesh_ (abhorrence) towards bitter, and so karma is bound. If equanimity prevails when bitter or sweet happens, then karma will not be bound.

**Questioner** : _Bhavkarma_ means the situation that comes through _dravyakarma_...

**Dadashri** : Anger-pride-deceit-greed ( _kashaya_ ) happen because of the _dravyakarma_ , they are all _bhaavkarma_. But the one who does not want to do them ( _kashaya_ ), the one who has _Gnan_ , will not do it. One becomes happy when sweet circumstances arise, and becomes irritated when bitter ones arise. That is how it goes on. Nothing will be bound if one maintains equanimity ( _samata, samabhaav_ ).

**Questioner** : So the anger-pride-deceit-greed that happen within the living being...

**Dadashri** : That is _bhaavkarma_.

**Questioner** : Does _bhaavkarma_ happen through the _nimit_ of _dravyakarma_ , or does dravykarma cause them?

**Dadashri** : No, _dravyakarma_ makes 'him' do it. But 'he' will never listen to _dravyakarma_ , if 'He' is a _Gnani_ (Self-realised).

**Questioner** : So then whatever my body suffers right now...

**Dadashri** : Whatever pain-pleasure you suffer is _nokarma_. Therefore, we settle with all the karma, sweet or bitter, with equanimity. So what does _nokarma_ mean? If one is a _Gnani_ , he will not bind karma, and if one is _aGnani_ , then seed will be sown again from the karma.

##  Ego Wears the Yellow Eyeglasses

**Questioner** : In Aptasutra 3963, it says, 'How long does the place for ego remain? It remains until 'whatever that is' between _karman sarira_ (causal body) and _Shuddhatma_ (pure Soul) goes away. What is this 'whatever that is'?

**Dadashri** : That itself is the _aGnan_ (ignorance of the Self). It is the veil of ignorance. Live ego goes away when _aGnan_ does not remain. Then, only the ego in a form of a shadow remains; dramatical ego, which takes care of the worldly life. Therefore, only the ego needs to be liberated, the Self is already liberated, is it not?

Everything goes away as the _aGnan_ leaves. _Avaran_ (veil of ignorance) is in two forms. One is in the form of veil of ignorance, and the other is in the form of _dravyakarma_. _Dravykarma_ is there everyday. But the main thing is about the veil in the form of ignorance. _Dravyakarma_ is according to certain aspect; there is no problem in that, for forty-fifty (life span) years. The _dravayakarma_ effect keeps changing, and that _aGnan_ is forever. _Dravyakarma_ is nothing but 'eye glasses'. It is not ignorance ( _aGnanta_ ). It is 'eye glasses', whatever the kind of glasses one wears, that is what he sees. He sees yellow if he wears yellow glasses.

**Questioner** : Who is the one wearing them?

**Dadashri** : Ego.

**Questioner** : So, it is the ego that has such glasses, is that so?

**Dadashri** : One has to wear the glasses mandatorily. So then whatever 'it' (ego) is seeing, it then begins to see it wrong. He sees it wrong, so then he follows the wrong path.

##  Vision Changed Through Dravyakarma

Now, what _dravyakarma_ is that it 'puts colored glasses (bandage) over your eyes' and them makes you see all this. So the vision changes, that is all because of _dravyakarma_. It is because the vision changes. This body that has arisen based on the _dravyakarma_.

**Questioner** : The vision through which we saw the world, before attaining _Gnan_ , is that vision the 'eye glasses' of _dravyakarma_?

**Dadashri** : That vision is based on the _dravyakarma_. And that vision has led us on the wrong path. But its base is the _dravyakarma_. That vision ( _drashti_ ) itself cannot be considered _dravyakarma_. What you call 'eyeglasses', that is called the _dravyakarma_ , that is correct.

_Nokarma_ means discharging karma, and _bhaavkarma_ means charging karma. _Dravyakarma_ do not go away from the middle. Here, 'we'( _Gnani Puursh_ ) remove the wrong vision. So the main Vision ( _muda drashti_ ) stops from going into the _dravykarma_. That wrong vision goes away.

**Questioner:** There is a definition given in the _Vachanamrut_ of Shrimad Rajchandra that the result of _bhaavkarma_ (cause karma) is _dravyakarma_ (effect karma).

**Dadashri:** That is correct. But people understand that 'result' in their own language. This result means it is the glasses—spectacles of the current life. And people understand result as _dravya_ matter, that which is experienced through the five senses. That is also a language, it is not wrong in a way, but _dravyakarma_ is not like that. If one understands the meaning of _dravyakarma_ then he can accomplish a lot.

**Questioner:** What are you trying to say about _dravyakarma_?

**Dadashri:** Now what is the _dravyakarma_ , it creates a blindfold and makes you see all this. So _drashti_ vision changes, all that is because of _dravyakarma_. This physical body originated due to change in _drashti_ vision. This physical body, which has formed, is entirely due to _dravyakarma_.

**Questioner:** Before _Gnan_ the _drashti_ (vision) through which we see the world, is that _drashti_ the glasses (blind folds, veils) of _dravyakarma_?

**Dadashri:** On the basis of _dravyakarma_ that _drashti_ (vision) exists. And we have walked on wrong path because of that _drashti_ (vision). But the basis of that _drashti_ (vision) is _dravyakarma_. That _drashti_ is not called _dravyakarma_. This glasses (blind folds—colored glasses which prevent 'seeing' it as it is) that you are saying, that is verily called the _dravyakarma_. That is correct.

_Nokarma_ means discharge karma and _bhaavkarma_ means charge karma. _Dravyakarma_ do not dissipate in between. We are just removing the wrong _drashti_ (vision) in the _Gnan_ _Vidhi_. So that ( _muda_ – original) Vision refrains from going on that side, in _dravyakarma_. That wrong ' _drashti_ – vision' verily disappears.

By the disappearance of this _dravyakarma_ , did your _drashti_ (vision) change or not?

**Questioner:** Yes, it changed.

**Dadashri:** But they (the non- _mahatmas_ ) have _dravyakarma_. _Dravyakarma_ is the reason for the wrong _drashti_ (vision). On the basis of _dravyakarma_ , vision became deluded, sees the relative as real, and this whole world is being governed on the basis of this wrong vision, and on that very basis _bhaavkarma_ ('I am Chandulal, I am the doer') charge karma happens. Otherwise without _dravyakarma_ , _bhaavkarma_ cannot happen at all. That _drashti_ (deluded vision) is there because of _dravyakarma_. It will show opposite of whatever it is. One sees the _viparit_ ( the wrong) , so he will follow the wrong way.

**Questioner:** When You give us _Gnan_ at that time You change our _drashti_ (vision) and due to that our karma stops charging, is that so?

**Dadashri:** Because of the disappearance of the main Vision (Vision as the Self), _bhaavkarma_ is charged.

Only the _Atmagnani_ and His sheltered Ones ( _Mahatmas_ ) can understand _dravyakarma_. _Dravyakarma_ means it has already come into fruition, it is in effect.

##  Charging Happens When Bhaav and Main Vision is Spoilt

_Dravyakarma_ is not a visible thing. People take it into gross ( _sthula_ ) understanding that they are visible, and understand it at the gross level. They believe that _bhaav_ means subtle ( _sukshma_ ), and _dravya_ means gross ( _sthula_ ). Actually, _dravya_ is subtler than subtle. Now how can these people understand this? They do not understand this at all, do they?

**Questioner** : It did not become clear to me yet.

**Dadashri** : _Nokarma_ means discharge, it is all gross.

**Questioner** : Do _dravyakarma_ and _nokarma_ not seem linked?

**Dadashri** : _Bhaavkarma_ arise from _dravyakarma_. And at the time of _bhaavkarma_ arising from _dravyakarma,_ new _dravyakarma_ form (for next life).

**Questioner** : Give us an example please.

**Dadashri** : When someone curses 'you', your ' _bhaav'_ will change at that time.

**Questioner** : What is someone cursing us called?

**Dadashri** : That is called _nokarma_. Cursing goes into _nokarma_ , but 'your' (present) vision changes. Then _dravyakarma_ arises from it. When _raudrabhaav_ (the internal meditation state that hurts the self and others) arises, it is called _bhaavkarma_ , and at the time when _raudrabhaav_ arises, the main internal machinery, this vision is spoilt. That spoiling of the vision is _dravyakarma_.

Your ( _mahatmas_ ) Vision does not become spoilt at the time of _nokarma_. It will not become spoilt even if _bhaav_ (intent-view) arise, because there is no _himsak_ (violence, ego) intent in it. When the vision does not become spoilt, it means charging will not happen. Charging happens only if vision gets spoilt. If vision does not spoil, then even _bhaav_ that happens is also discharge. When both, _bhaav_ and main vision is spoiled, it is called charge.

**Questioner** : How can one be free from _bhaavkarma_ , _dravyakarma_ , _nokarma_?

**Dadashri** : Until one attains _samyak_ _drashti_ (right Vision, Vision as the Self ), he cannot become free at all of _bhaavkarma_ , _nokarma_ , _dravyakarma_. _Samyak drashti_ does not happen, does it? That _mithya drashti_ (wrong vision, 'I am Chandulal') will not change. Nothing can be attained as long as _mithya drashti_ exists. This _mithya drashti_ is worldly vision ( _sansar drashti_ ). That _samyak drashti_ is _Atmadrashti_ (vision as the Self). It is a different Vision. After attaining _samyak drashti,_ _bhaavkarma_ ; _dravyakarma_ , _nokarma_ , they all happen separately and then they go away. Then everything remains separate. Karma will stop from being bound.

##  Keep in Awareness, the 'Glasses', Your State, and the External

When two elements come together, those two elements maintain their own attributes, and a third new component of completely new property arises. It is called _vyatirek guna_. 'Glasses' are created by that _vyatirek guna_.

The Self is in its own nature, but there is so much 'fog' that one cannot see. He will be able to see when the fog is lifted. _Dravyakarma_ is like fog. The effect of the fog remains on him for a long time even after one comes out of that fog. _Gnani_ _Purush_ can remove it for you.

That which sows seed for the next life is _bhaavkarma_. Karma without seeds are _nokarma_. And what is _dravyakarma_? What kind of glasses has one brought with him from his past life? Are they number four, number eight or number twelve (power)? All his life, he sees through the glasses he has come with. He has _sooja_ (intuition; insight) according to whatever glasses he has come with.

He has also brought energies in his _dravyakarma_. There are infinite energies in the Self. But he has also brought with him the energies to obstruct the energies of the Self (in _dravyakarma_ ). The other thing is that he has also brought _murchit bhaav_ ( _mohaniya karma,_ the view that deludes), he has brought _moha_ (that which makes one unaware of the Self)

If one puts on yellow glasses, he will see the world as yellow. He is aware about the glasses, and therefore understands that he sees yellow because of the glasses. He has put on the glasses of _dravyakarma_ of the past life. And that is why he is seeing all this. If he is aware of the glasses, if he remains in the awareness of the Self, if the external matters are in his awareness,then there is no problem.

What people of the world understand as _dravyakarma_ , is also correct (according to their view), but main _dravyakarma_ is a different thing. _Dravyakarma_ are those eight karma mentioned before. And this, _bhaavkarma_ and _nokarma_ , is the fruit of _dravyakarma_.

**Questioner** : Are they ( _bhaavkarma, nokarma_ ) the fruit of the _dravyakarma_?

**Dadashri** : They would not be there if _dravyakarma_ were not there. _Bhaavkarma_ and _nokarma_ happen because of the _dravyakarma_ , and therefore 'we' completely remove the deluded vision ( _mithya drashti_ ) so _bhaavkarma_ , _dravyakarma_ , _nokarma_ , none of them touch You. That is why 'we' have said, 'I am absolutely free from _bhaavkarma_ - _dravyakarma_ - _nokarma_ ; such a _Shuddhatma_ I am'. Hence, there is no _bhaavkarma_ , no _dravyakarma_ and no _nokarma_ , here. 'We' do not have _bhaavkarma_ , _dravyakarma_ or _nokarma_.

##  Surrendered the Living, and the Lifeless Remains

One has surrendered _dravyakarma_ , _bhaavkarma_ , _nokarma_ , but he does not understand that, does he? Every karma has been surrendered, because I tell you to say, 'I surrender to You all; _bhaavkarma_ , _dravyakarma_ and _nokarma_ '. If one asks, 'Do I not have to keep them?' So I tell him, 'If you want to keep them, then tell me first. Then you keep them.' So he will say, 'No, I do not want to keep them'. So then how will he have them? Why worry having surrendered them to 'us'?

**Questioner** : I surrender my mind, speech and body, _bhaavkarma_ - _dravyakarma_ and _nokarma_ , to Dada. But then I still suffer them, so how can I say that I have surrendered them?

**Dadashri** : You surrendered the 'live' _bhaav_ ( _bhaavkarma_ ), and you kept the lifeless one. Therefore, live mind, live speech, and live ego, you surrenderd all that. And all that is ready to give fruit, (discharging) remains with you.

**Questioner** : This is the first time I have understood this. I have surrendered _bhaavkarma_ - _dravyakarma_ - _nokarma_. This is also the first time I have understood the importance of that.

**Questioner** : You did understand it, did you not? You understood it the first time, but many have yet to understand it, do they not? _Bhaavkarma_ will continue and you will bind karma, if you have not surrendered.

**Questioner** : What you are saying is true, but I understood its importance just now.

**Dadashri** : It has to be understood. You are right; did you not understand it exactly?

**Questioner** : All I know that I do not have any _bhaavkarma_ (after _Gnan Vidhi_ ).

**Dadashri** : Yes, very few _Mahatmas_ have understood it. All this goes on more or less. However one will not understand that.

**Questioner** : One will be greatly blessed if he understood this.

**Dadashri** : He will have the solution if he understands this. But he cannot understand it, can he? This is _Akram Vignan_ , so it goes on, even if one does not understand it. It goes on for this young child too, does it not?

One has surrendered everything that he considered 'my'. He says, 'I surrender to You all my _bhaavkarma_ , my _nokarma_ , my _dravyakarma_ , my name, my body, my speech, and everything'.

**Questioner** : I was just thinking that, we are surrendering all this, but we are not giving up anything at all.

**Dadashri** : No, but when one surrenders after he understands, he will be blessed. But one does not understand it, does he? Many _mahatmas_ still do not understand _nokarma_. Great _mahatmas_ , and yet their work goes on. We realise that they will understand it further along the path.

When we say _dravyakarma_ , one thinks that he will need money (general meaning of _dravya_ is money) that is fine too, accept it (for _Akram_ ). It will be ruined if we try to clarify it. All this goes on with the help of Dada, does it not?

What people believe as _dravyakarma_ , I accept it. I say that is fine, because sooner or later they will understand it. If you allow _dravya_ (money),then how many more things you will have to allow, do you not have to add this table too? Many people understand that worshipping, and other things are _dravyakarma_ , they say that it is the fruit of _bhaavkarma_. That is not _dravyakarma_ ; it is _nokarma_. Otherwise, the best is like this man here.. He does not want to know anything; to him whatever Dada says is old.

##  Bhaavkarma Goes Away Through Vignan

This world stands on these three karma, _bhaavkarma_ , _dravyakarma_ and _nokarma_. _Gnanis_ of the entire _kramic_ path work on _bhaavkarma_. And they have to reduce _bhaavkarma_ day after day, step by step. Step by step because it is a _kramic_ path. Now, as 'he' reduces _bhaavkarma_ on one side, his _swabhaav_ (the Self) blossoms. And what we have done is that 'we' have completely eliminated the _bhaavkarma_ , because _bhaavkarma_ happens only if 'you' are 'Chandubhai'.

All the four _kashayas_ are gone in this _Akram Vignan_ , have they not? So there is no _bhaavkarma_ left, and so _dravyakarma_ , the eight karma of the next life are not bound, because 'You' are no more the doer of _bhaav_.

**Questioner** : So the batteries that were constantly charging, they will not charge anymore?

**Dadashri** : No, they will not be charged. Only charging that will happen is that of following my _Agnas_. You need _punyai_ for one more life, do You not?

**Questioner** : Whatever intent of doership there is in following the _Agna_ , does one bind _punyanubandhi_ _punyai_ (merit karma of the highest quality) as a result of that?

**Dadashri** : Yes. You will need it for the next life, will You not? To go to Lord Simandhar Swami in Your next life, will You not need _punyanubandhi_ _punyai_? Thereefore, the moment You are born; home, clothes etc. fit for a king will be kept ready by your parents. You will not have to build a home. If you have to build a home, then it is not considered _punyanubandhi_ _punyai_. A home is ready and one is born there. Should everything be ready or not for You? Then You need something like a horse and carriage to take You for _Darshan_. Do You not need all that?

**Questioner** : Yes.

**Dadashri** : A car will take you to Lord Simandhar Swami, and then come to pick you up again.

So this is a wonderful science, if you understand it. It has the ultimate principle ( _siddhant_ ) and is without any contradiction. You will not find contradiction anywhere.

*****

#  [3.1]

#  'There is Something' is Darshan, 'This is it' is Gnan

##  Darshan and Gnan, Understanding Through Intellect

**Questioner** : Please explain the difference between _gneya_ (object or thing to be known) and _drashya_ (that which is to be seen).

**Dadashri** : How did you understand? About _gneya_ and _drashya_ ?

**Questioner** : _Gneya_ means simply to know internally. We can see _drashya_ externally.

**Dadashri** : It is not like that. The Lord has used two words, _darshan_ and _gnan._ One would ask, 'Sir, could you not just have used the word _gnan_ only? _Darshan_ and everything come into the _gnan_ , do they not?' No. This difference cannot be understood. Many things are solved through _darshan_ , without _gnan_. Now, in _Gnan_ (Knowledge), _Darshan_ (Vision) and _Charitra_ (Conduct); _Drashta_ (Seer) Sees the _drashya_ (the scene), and _Gnata_ (Knower) Knows the _gneya_ (that being Known). It is the same, one thing, The Knower-Seer is the Self only. When 'Seeing' the _drashya_ , He is considered _Drashta_ , and when he is 'Knowing' the _gneya_ , he is considered _Gnata_. Now what is _drashya_? That is one big question arises.

Seeing with these eyes is not considered 'seeing'. That is seeing for the worldly life ( _sansar_ ). What is 'seeing' and 'knowing' in this? What is _darshan_ and _gnan_ in this? Why are they different?

So, _darshan_ and _gnan_ are two different things. It is something that will take a long time for the people of the world to even understand. If _Gnani_ explains it, then one will understand it. People have not understood _darshan_ - _gnan_. Even philosophers have nothing to say when it comes to discussing _darshan_ - _gnan_. Wherever you see, _darshan_ - _gnan_ has not been understood.

**Questioner** : It is a topic beyond intellect, is it not?

**Dadashri** : Yes, a topic beyond intellect. Now the difference is experienced through _Gnan_ ( _Gnangamya_ ). Still, I am giving you an example that you can understand through intellect.

Now, if I give you an example so that you can understand _darshan_ - _gnan_ in detail, then your intellect ( _buddhi_ ) will accept it, and you will feel, 'Yes, that is correct'. Otherwise, the only I can See it.

Say there is some noise in the other room while we are all sitting here, someone will say, 'There is something there'. Now how do we know if it is a dog or a cat? But do these people know that there is at least something there? Do they know that there is something there?

**Questioner** : Yes.

**Dadashri** : They will not know whether it is a dog or a cat, how would they know? Or it may be a child who could have made the noise. But would they not know that there is something there?

**Questioner** : Yes, Dada.

**Dadashri** : What is that called? Is it called _gnan_ (knowledge) or _darshan_ (vision)? Or is is called _drashti_ (vision)? 'There is something', what is it? Everyone says that there is something, but if you say, tell us, 'What is it?' They will say, 'There is definitely something there.' They will all say it with the same opinion, 'There is something'. So you get up and go there to see, and say, 'It is a cat'. So then everyone will say that it is a cat. Therefore, 'there is something' was knowledge ( _gnan_ ), and 'it is a cat' is also knowledge, is it not? What is the difference between these two knowledge? Undecided knowledge, 'there is something' is considered _darshan_ ; it is considered seen. And decided knowledge is considered _gnan_ , it is considered known.

Undecided _gnan_ (knowledge) is considered _drashya_ (that which is seen, the scene), and decided _gnan_ is considered _gneya_ (that which is known). 'There is something' is the state of the seer ( _drashtapanu_ ) and when everyone agrees that it is a cat, it is the state of knowing ( _gnatapanu_ ). So they are the same thing.

**Questioner** : The example you gave of the cat, many times we do not hear or see anything, and yet we feel that there is something there; what is that called?

**Dadashri** : But, 'there is something there' is itself called _drashya_. As long as decision is not reached, it is called _drashya_. When decision is reached, the moment it is decided, it becomes a _gneya_. Until then it is not called knowing ( _jaanyoon_ ).

This word is in two forms, _drashya_ (that what is being seen) and _gneya_ (that what is being known), and the Self is in the form of both, the Seer and the Knower. That is what our _Gnan_ says that, this is _gneya_ and _drashya_ , and You See as the Knower-Seer.

The Self is the Knower-Seer ( _Gnata-Drashta_ ). When you say that you have a stomacache, it is a _drashya_ , then 'we' say, 'Tell me where it hurts?' and you say it hurts here, that is called _gneya_.

A doctor says, 'There is something going on, but I cannot diagnose it'. If you ask, 'What is the diagnosis?' the doctor will say, 'I cannot make the diagnosis. But there is something there.' These words are customarily used in the worldly life, but they are not aware of them.

##  There is no Difference in Them

**Questioner** : What is the difference between _gnata_ - _drashta_ (knower-seer) and _jaananaar_ (knower) and _jonaar_ (seer)?

**Dadashri** : _Jananaar_ (knower) and _jonaar_ (seer) itself is the _gnata_ - _drashta_ (knower-seer). I saw ( _joyoo_ ) and I know ( _janyoo_ ). The one who sees ( _joovey_ ) something, sees ( _joovey_ ) the _drashya_ , and knows the _gneya_ , he says _joyoo_ \- _janyoo_ (see-know).

What does this light do? If there is _Chetan_ (living Self) in it, it would say, 'I see ( _joyoo_ ). I am the one who knows ( _janoo_ )'. What is its nature?

**Questioner** : Of giving light.

**Dadashri** : It also gives the light. There are two kinds of light. Seeing and knowing. Why is is called knowing-seeing? 'All these are stars' is called seeing. When you specify that, 'This is a North Star', it is called knowing. It is the same light.

##  Upon Specific Thinking That Which is Seen Becomes Gneya

Now, if excessive thinking has caused confusion, then if you do not know them (thoughts), keep then in your vision ( _darshan_ ) that all these thoughts have all come together. If they have not come separately into your knowledge ( _gnan, jaanvama_ ), then see them collectively, that is called _darshan_. And when you see them in detail, that the following thoughts came, I had a thought of going to Aurangabad, you are considered the _gnata_ (knower), and that other is called _gneya_ (the known). If all the thoughts come together, it is called _drashya_ (the seen, or the scene)

Seeing with a thought (knowing) is called _gneya_ , and seeing without a thought (seeing) is called _drashya_.

**Questioner** : What do you mean by 'seeing with a thought' ?

**Dadashri** : When you are seeing a movie, you see everything. But in the movie, if a scene comes, and you think, 'why does one man chase another man with a knife? He will kill him.' That is called _gneya_ , and the rest that goes on is a _drashya_.

**Questioner** : We first saw that a man has come with a knife, so that is _drashya_. But to think that what is he going to do with the knife? Then _drashya_ becomes a _gneya_ , is that so?

**Dadashri** : The moment he comes with a knife, your thought enters into it, And the moment your thought gets into it, it is a _gneya_. If you do not have a thought and it passess naturally, then it is all _drashya_.

**Questioner** : If I See any irritation this Chandubhai (file 1) experiences; he experiences some confusion, how does seeing-knowing apply here?

**Dadashri** : When you first realised that, it is considered Seeing ( _joyoon_ ). As long as you do not know what it is, that is all a _darshan_ (vision). Therefore, as long as there is no decision, it is Seeing.

**Questioner** : Then what is considered knowing ( _jaanvoo_ )?

**Dadashri** : Knowing is when you experience it. As long as it is vague, it is seeing. It is called knowing, when it is decided. Most of it is in the seeing, there is less in knowing. No a lot of it can be decided, can it?

**Questioner** : When does knowing happen? When is it decided?

**Dadashri** : It is considered knowing when you experience ( _anubhav_ ) it.

Do people not say, 'Since how many days have you been applying the medicine?' One will say, 'I have been applying it for four days'. Ask him why, and he will say, 'I still do not know it'. So he applies the medicine. What does he do? As long as he sees but not know it, it is _darshan_. He has not experienced yet what the benefit has been of the medicine, so on the fifth day he says, 'it is throbbing less today'. That is because that _gnan_ (experience) has happened.

##  Seen and Known; Both Relative

**Questioner** : What is real-relative in these two? Is seeing the relative is seen, and even knowing is also based on the relative, is it not?

**Dadashri** : They are both relative, are they not? They are both based on the relative. That which is dependent ( _sapeksha_ ) is all relative There is nothing, except the Self, that is independent ( _nirpeksha_ ). Everything is relative and plus it is all destructible ( _vinashi_ ).

**Questioner** : Hence everything that is seen and known based on the relative is temporary-destructible, is it not?

**Dadashri** : That is all destructible.

**Questioner** : Now what _gnan_ (knowledge) is that which understands that this is temporary-destructible?

**Dadashri** : This understanding that happens is close to _kevalGnan_ (absolute Knowledge). He is on the side of _kevalGnan_. Hence, with such understanding, he comes to the side of the main _Gnan_ , permanent _Gnan_ , real _Gnan_.

##  Eventually it is all one

**Questioner** : So, the one who is the Seer ( _drashta_ ), becomes the Knower ( _Gnata_ ), is it when it becomes decided?

**Dadashri** : Knower and Seer are both one. He becomes the Knower when it is decided.As long as the dinner is covered up, there is _darshan_ (vision) that there is something there. And when he eats he will say, 'this is it'. What is decided, it is called _gnan_. One is a drashta (seer) when he understands that 'there is something there', and when it is decided, he becomes the _gnata_ (knower). The same person. 'There is something there', is some form of knowledge ( _gnan_ ), is it not? Are you going to discard it? That is the actual _gnan_. Therefore, _darshan_ and _gnan_ , they were the same thing.

**Questioner** : But ultimately, the Self is all three, there is no difference in _Gnan_ , _Darshan_ and _Charitra_ , is there? Is it not said that differences are made in _Gnan_ , _Darshan_ and _Charitra_ for explaining them.

**Dadashri** : There is nothing else. The Self is only one. These differences have been made to explain them, because people do not attain Knowledge ( _Gnan_ ) all of a sudden. They have _Darshan_ (Vision, Understanding) first, it is established in their conviction ( _pratiti_ ). When he attains _Gnan_ , he becomes aware that 'there is something there'.

##  Constant Conviction of the Self is Kshayik Samkit

**Questioner** : What is the real meaning of 'the Self comes into _darshan'_?

**Dadashri** : _Darshan_ means to see, to have _pratiti_ (conviction). One should feel 'there is something', for anything. First comes _darshan_ (vision), and then comes _bhaan_ (awareness, _laksha, jagruti_ ). Then it becomes decided.

When one has constant conviction that 'there is something', it is called _kshayik samkit darshan_. Otherwise _pratiti_ of 'there is something' will remain for a while, and then it will also go away, but this _pratiti_ remains constantly.

**Questioner** : So, right now _samyak darshan_ (right Vision) has happened.

**Dadashri** : In _samyak_ _darshan_ , some _pratiti_ of the Self will happen and then veil of ignorance will come over it. And this is _kshyak samkit_ (permanent conviction 'I am pure Self') so no veil will come over it.

How wise are they! I had become phenomenally impressed with it.

People took 'there is something' as _Gnan_. That is also correct, is it not? It is a fact that 'there is something', there is such _Gnan_ there. Now how do _Mahatmas_ become aware of _Darshan_? So when I give you _Gnan_ , the same day or the next morning, You will feel that 'there is something there'. So then I know that you have attained _kshayik_ _darshan_.

So, I have given you the _samyak darshan_ (right vision), but it is _kshayik samkit_. Now, what remains is for You to Know that what has been decided, Know what You are. So You should have such experience.

As the experiences ( _anubhav_ ) happen for You, You will continue to attain the Knowledge ( _Gnan_ ). When You say 'yes', that means the experience happened. That decided _Gnan_ (Knowledge) happens. One attains _Darshan_ first, and then _Gnan_ happens. When _Darshan_ (Vision, Understanding) and _Gnan_ (Knowledge, Experience) come together, they manifest into _Charitra_ (Conduct).

**Questioner** : Understanding that 'there is something' is _Darshan_ , and a direct decision that is 'made' is _Gnan_.

**Dadashri** : That is called _Gnan_. Now, You have Seen the result of the _gnan_ (knowledge), that 'there is something', but You have not seen anything clearly. You have not had clear experience ( _spashta vedan_ ), it is an unclear experience ( _aspashta vedan_ ). Therefore, You feel that 'there is something there', but the decision that 'this is it' has not come yet.

**Questioner** : Therefore, it is not completely decided that 'this is it'.

**Dadashri** : When will decision, 'this is it' become complete? It is when _kevalGnan_ happens.

##  How Knowledge or Experiece Comes From Understanding

'We' ( _Gnani Purush_ ) 'See' and 'we' say. It is not to be seen through these (physical) eyes. It is is to be 'Seen' in the awareness (of the Self) , Seen through experiential awareness (of the Self), experiential vision .

When you understand what 'we' are saying, it is _darshan_. And when you explain to another person as I have explained to you, yours is called _gnan,_ and his is _darshan_.

**Questioner** : You will not say it with the vision (view) that the other person cannot digest it.

**Dadashri** : It is in one's understanding. To understand and speak, is based on knowledge.

One cannot know as much as he can understand in this world. One can understand what he knows, but he may not know (experience) what he understands (vision). I have all the understanding, but as I do not know everything, I cannot show you.

*****

#  [3.2]

#  Seeing Generally, Knowing Specifically

##  Details of Darshan-Gnan

Say you are travelling to Anand by road with tress on the either side of the road. What does one with _darshan_ do? He will keep seeing all the trees. And what does one with the _gnan_ do? He sees a lemon tree, a mango tree, and he misses out on seeing other things. All the work cannot be done at the same time. Until one recognises all the trees, someone may ask, 'What did you see there?' He will say, 'All the trees'. Ask him, 'But what trees?' He will say, 'That, I do not know.' That it is considered 'seeing'. Then when he is shown that this is a mango tree, that is called knowing. Now people of the world have never delved this deep into this at all. How can this even come into their understanding? Only the knowledge of the _Tirthankaras_ will reach so high. Mind you, this is not the knowledge ( _gnan_ ) of intellect, it is the _Gnan_ of _kevalGnan_.

**Questioner** : And it is not even of this language. _Darshan_ and _drashya_ are also Knowledge beyond this language.

**Dadashri** : This _Gnan_ is of a very high level. 'We' have brought it to a lower level. There is a need for it, is there not? 'We' have to bring it down, do we not? But this discovery of _Tirthankaras_ , it amazes me just seeing that wow! What a discovery! They separated _Darshan_ and _Gnan_ , Seeing and Knowing. What was wrong in saying just one? But there lies such great science behind it, does it not?

When you go in a car from here, therte are two kinds of _darshan_. One is to see generally ( _samanya bhaav_ ) and is called _darshan_ , and the other is seeing specifically ( _vishesha bhaav_ ), and it is called _gnan_. What does _vishesha bhaav darshan_ mean? This is a _neem_ tree, this is a mango tree, that is called _vishesha bhaav darshan_. And to see with _samanya bhaav_ (general view) is called _darshan_. In _samanya bhaav,_ all the _jivas_ (living beings) come into it, You do their _Darshan_ (See) as _Shuddhatma_ (pure Soul). And all the _jivas_ are left out in _vishesha bhaav_ , and only the _neem_ tree and the mango tree are known. Therefore, _samanya bhaav_ is better than _vishesh bhaav_. Do not go into _vishesha bhaav_. But sometimes there is no choice there, because when Nagindas Sheth is coming, you have to get into specific seeing ( _vishesha_ _bhaav_ ), don't you? You do not have any choice, do you? If someone asks you if there is any mango tree here, do you not have to show him? But it is out of no choice. You should enter into specifics if you have a choice. This is neem and this is mango, you have done nothing but this for infinite lives. What else have you done? Whose child is neem and whose child is mango, why all this bother now? You have to eat your own mango, so why don't you do that peacefully?

**Questioner** : There is no need to even know, just keep Seeing it. On the contrary, you will be more miserable by knowing that this is an oak tree and that other is a mango tree. _Raag-dwesh_ (attachment-abhorrence) will enter into it.

**Dadashri** : A minute is used up in seeing an oak tree. How much more can You can See within a minute! You can See so many Souls in that minute.

'We' do not even make an effort to know anything. 'We' just make an effort to see it only. If you get stuck in knowing, 'what tree is it?' then you have use your intellect. Then the problem of I like this and I like that will enter into it.

Therefore, this path is completely of safeside, if You understand it the way 'we' tell You.

##  Vitaragta With General Gnan

Interference ( _dakho)_ happens with _vishesha_ _gnan_ (extra or additional knowledge, specific seeing), and _vitaragata_ (absence of attachment and abhorrence) happens through _samanya_ _gnan_ (ordinary or general knowledge, non-specific seeing). If you walk in the forest, Seeing _Shuddhatma_ in all the trees, is called _samanya bhaav_. Therefore You can remain _vitarag_ (unaffected) thus _darshan_ of all the Souls happens.

If you go out looking for a lawyer, do you look at his hair or you look at his ability to plead? If he comes here with black glasses, what use do we have with those glasses? Can he plead or not? That is how we See the Self.

When a _Gnani_ _Purush_ is walking, he does not see that one is a woman or a man, one is fat or thin, one is dumb or lame, he does not see any such thing. So then what does he see? He Sees the Self only with this general view ( _samanya bhaav_ ).

He will not do _vishesha bhaav_ (specific view). What does one with _vishesha bhaav_ do? Look, he is lame. So then he misses seeing the rest. He saw just one thing and so benefitted from only one thing, and lost the benefit of Seeing the Self in the other hundred. He did _vishesha_ _bhaav_. Therefore, 'we' See everything with _samanya_ _bhaav_. 'We' do not look at any _vishesha parinam_ (specific attributes), that one is a wise one, or he is without any sense, he is a fool, he is an ass, why would 'we' enter into such unnecessary problem ( _dakho_ )?

**Questioner** : That is why you have told us to practice Seeing _Shuddhatma_ (pure Soul) in everyone, every hour, have you not?

**Dadashri** : Yes, as you practice that, the _vishesha parinam_ will disappear. Opinions arise from _vishesha parinam._ He is blind and he is dumb, that is all the play of _pudgal_.

##  Dwelling Only in the Self

Where you live is your own home ( _desh, swadesh_ ). If you ask someone, he will tell you, 'I live in Ahmedabad'. Ask him, 'Where in Ahmedabad?' and he will tell you that he lives on this street and that street. But where in that street, and he will tell you that he lives in the house number one. But others also live in that home, but where do you live? That will make him think, that what is this? Birds and other beings live in that house. He will tell you that he does not know that, all he knows is that he lives in that house. That is it; the doors to intellect close there. So then what do you live in?

**Questioner** : My own 'home', in the Self ( _swadesh_ ).

**Dadashri** : In _swadesh_ , right? So then there is nothing like street, is there? Rest of the places, there are streets with addresses. And the Self is without any address. There is no such thing as having to take a bath etc. How long do you remain in the Self ( _swadesh_ )? You have to come out of it for a while, do you not? How long can You remain it it?

**Questioner** : I have to maintain awareness in this; it will come out of it and then get back into it again.

**Dadashri** : Can you see the signs of coming out (of the Self)?

**Questioner** : I can see it immediately. I will know that this has gone out of the Self.

**Dadashri** : Why would it go out (of the Self), He would remain in the home department ( _swadesh_ ) and continue to See ( _joyaa karey_ ). This is because it does not have any 'walls' (to limit it). So remaining there, he keeps Seeing the thought that arises. He remains in his 'room' (the Self) and keeps 'Seeing' what goes on in the 'foreign department' (non-Self complex, and the world).

**Questioner** : Where is one when he fails 'Seeing'? Is he in the 'home'?

**Dadashri** : He is indeed in the Self.

**Questioner** : What are the signs of going into the 'foreign' (non-Self)?

**Dadashr** : Restlessness ( _ajampo_ ) happens, suffocation happens. As soon as He goes out (of the Self), he is instantly into knowing (specifics, _jaanvoo_ )'. If he remains in 'Seeing', then He can do so while remaining in his own office (the Self), and he has to come out when he goes to know it. _Mooah_ (oh mortal)! Why did you have to know it, by knowing now? What work do you need to accomplish? That is ineed whole invited problem. He went to know it in detail. He will say that he wants to know what it is in details. Hey, forget the details. This is just all going to go away, no?

**Questioner** : If there is _upayoga_ (applied awareness) on that knower, can the Self see that that 'knower' went out, or went somewhaere?

Dadashri: Yes, that is possible, but that cannot remain completely, because he is in the knowing, is he not? He goes to find out (to know) what it is , what it is, in details. Can he not do without knowing in detail?

**Questioner** : Yes, he can do without it. What is even the need for it?

**Dadashri** : But there is that intellect ( _buddhi_ ), is there not? It looks for the details.

**Questioner** : What is Your knowing like? Do You get involved in knowing?

**Dadashri** : What is left to know after having Known everything? 'We' sit here having Known everything. This is the brother of my wife, what more is there to know? What is new in that to know? Whatever is left, what is the point of knowing again and again?

**Questioner** : So, one has to remain outside until he knows?

**Dadashri** : Suffocation will happen, as long as he remains outside. Went out to know the details. Where do these eggplants come from? Hey you, why bother! These are eggplants, all a play of the _pudgal_ (non-Self complex). What is the point of dissecting more? You do dissect a lot, right? This is called _magas_ (Indian sweet), this is called _gundarpaak_ (sweet made with edible glue), it makes the back strong. He went to know that.

**Questioner** : That knowledge ( _gnan_ ) will increase, will it not? As one goes to know more, his knowledge increases, no?

**Dadashri** : What increase of knowledge? This only causes further suffocation. This is not called knowledge. You went out to know the details. To know the Self is called Knowledge ( _Gnan_ ), and to Know that this is the non-Self is _Gnan_. _Gnan_ causes separation within; this is the non-Self and this is the Self. _Darshan_ (Vision) keeps 'Seeing' (from) within; that is all. One enters into details when he goes out to know ( _jaanva gayo_ ). He goes into details, 'What is this? What is this? What is this?' When the self enters into details, it enters into _darshan_ , it enters into _gnan_ , it enters into _charitra_ (conduct) and it enters into details.

**Questioner** : I did not understand that Dada, what you said. The Self enters into _gnan_ , enters into _darshan_?

**Dadashri** : People will accept only _darshan_ and move forward, but the entire Self is not only in the form of _Darshan_ (to See only), is it? It is as a whole, of _Gnan_ - _Darshan_ - _Charitra_ together. How long will people understand all this as separate? It is as long as they do not have a complete experience of the Self. There is no need to see anything separate after experiencing the Self. Ours is _Akram_ _Vignan_ , so, all that (which needs to be experienced) remains weak; so he comes out to see all that separately. What is this? What is that?

**Questioner** : So, this thing about knowing and seeing, like this knowing in the example you gave, 'this is a neem tree, this is an oak tree, and this is a mango tree; so then what is the knowing part in this—the Self?'

**Dadashri** : The Seeing in this is that, this is of the non-Self and this is Mine (the Self).

**Questioner** : That is the 'Seeing' ( _jovapanu_ , _jovoo_ ) but what is the 'knowing' ( _jaanvoo_ ) in it?

**Dadashri** : No, 'Seeing' is all with _samanya bhaavey_ (with general view, nonspecific view). He sees all the _gneyas_ (that to be known) with one view ( _ek_ _bhaavey_ ), sees all the _drashyas_ (to be seen) with one view ( _ek bhaavey_ )—the view of the Self.

**Questioner** : But in that thing, you said that this is neem tree, this is an oak tree; likewise, what matter does he see of his inner state? What does he see? So what does he get involved into seeing?

**Dadashri** : In that very thing; into Seeing. He does not get involved in anything else. What He enters into Seeing, that itself is His _upayoga_.

**Questioner** : No, please show us an example of that? What do we get involved into seeing?

**Dadashri** : When you enter into knowing a thing in detail, you are not the _Drashta_ (Seer) at that time. So You are not in the main Self. When you just keep seeing (knowing) only the neem tree, then its whole _drashya_ (the total vision) ends. Whole _drashya_ is with general view only ( _samanya bhaavey_ ). When one tries just to know, 'that this is a neem tree. What does it taste like?' He will say that it is bitter. When he keeps trying to taste it, whole _drashya_ stops at that time.

##  It Takes Time for it to be Decided

What the world is, what it is not, it is all in 'my' understanding ( _samaj, Darshan_ ), but it has not come into our knowledge ( _jaanvoo, Gnan_ ). Just as people did not know that from the wood of a teak tree, one can make good furniture. They knew that you get wood from cutting the tree, but they do not know that the wood is useful or not for furniture. If you do not know whether this is a teak or an fruit tree wood, you will not get the details.

**Questioner** : You said that the understanding has come about what this world is, but it has not come into your 'knowing'. What is that 'knowing'?

**Dadashri** : Details.

**Questioner** : Can we say that details have not come?

**Dadashri** : Yes, it will do if you say that.

**Questioner** : But, there it time involved in both, is it not? You need time even to understand, and time is also needed in knowing? Does it take time in both?

**Dadashri** : You need time. But you do not need time in understanding ( _samaj_ ). You need time in knowing ( _gnanpanu_ , experience).

**Questioner** : Is there interval time between _darshan_ and _gnan_?

**Dadashri** : A little.

**Questioner** : One goes to see a cow, and hears a sound means that there is something there, but to gain the knowledge that it is a cow...

**Dadashri** : Yes, it takes time to make that decision, does it not? Result of _darshan_ itself is _gnan_. But the Lord has not put much value on _gnan_. He has put value on _darshan_.

##  KevalGnan has Halted

**Questioner** : So then based on what did Lord Rushabhadev (the first _Tirthankara_ of the current time cycle) said that 'this one' (ultimately Lord Mahavira) will become the twenty fourth _Tirthankara_ , if the time was not decided?

**Dadashri** : He would have everything in his _Gnan_ that one will be this, he will wander around and become this, does he not? He Saw all that in his _Gnan_. All his veils go away and he could See everything.'We' can not 'See (in _Gnan_ )' everything, but it is in 'our' understanding ( _samaj, Darshan_ ). To 'us' it comes in understanding, and he can See (Know) everything.

**Questioner** : What does 'come into understanding' mean?

**Dadashri** : There is a difference between 'coming into understanding' and 'knowing'.

**Questioner** : Lord Rushbhadev can 'See' (in absolute _Gnan_ ) and it comes into Your understanding, what is the difference in the two?

**Dadashri** : To come into understanding means that one feels that 'there is something there'. That is called coming into understanding. And 'this is it' means that it has come into _gnan_. A decision is made, that is _gnan_ , and decision is not made and when is seems that 'there is something', it is called understanding. When it seems tha 'there is something', it is a kind of a _gnan_ , but it is a _gnan_ (knowledge) in the form of understanding.

**Questioner** : What comes into one's 'seeing', comes into 'understanding'. And when it comes into one's 'knowing', it comes into _gnan_. There is great difference in 'seeing' and 'knowing'?

**Dadashri** : There is a great difference between seeing and knowing. 'We' have seen the whole world, have 'we' not? But not 'known' it. That is why 'our' _kevalGnan_ has been halted, it went into _kevalDarshan_ (absolute Vision).

**Questioner** : We say that Dada has _kevalDarshan_. So what is going on in that?

**Dadashri** : It means that 'we' have complete understanding of the world, but it has not come into _Gnan_. He knows that it has come into his understanding, but He cannot be in that Conduct.

**Questioner** : So one understands that this is only the way it is, this is the way it is?

**Dadashri** : Yes, but he cannot remain completely in that.

**Questioner** : So, does any circumstances of any person come into clear _darshan_ , or does an _upayoga_ have to be placed (by You)?

**Dadashri** : It comes into _Darshan_. All the phases ( _paryaya_ ) of the entire world come into _Darshan_. _KevalDarshan_. Where does that _darshan_ begin? Every living being has _darshan_. People call that _sooj_ , based on that a living being, functions. It is this _sooj_ , that is the support by which a living being does any work, it is only the _darshan_. When it ( _sooj_ ) stops from within, one becomes entangled and everyone around him confuses him and torments him, so then he sits down for a while or lies down for a while and everything clears up. Then he quickly gets on with his work, because _sooj_ happens within.

**Questioner** : Therefore _Gnani_ _Purush_ has tremendous range in his _sooj_ , Dada?

**Dadashri** : There is profuse outpour in his _sooj_ like a waterfall. For the average person there is just a trickle.

**Questioner** : So everything will be very clear to him, Dada.

**Dadashri** : Yes.

This answer of _darshan_ - _gnan_ that 'we' are giving to you will not be found in any scripture.

##  How Subtle the Understanding of the Tirthankars

What the people do not understand today, what must that talk be like when those _Purush_ ( _Tirthankaras_ ) who understood, said it! They were born in our country.

**Questioner** : Was the society not developed when they said it? They must have said it long time before?

**Dadashri** : The society was very developed at that time.

**Questioner** : Is it not so now?

**Dadashri** : There was a dark period in the middle. It is developing now. It is developing very well now.

Now, people will not understand this subtleness in the worldly life, will they? People (non-Self realized) in the world will not understand us, that much subtle detail. How much subtleness has the Lord gone into!

**Questioner** : Dada, you talked about Seeing and Knowing, it is very amazing thing. You You extracted a great meaning out of that. Seeing and Knowing, _Darshan_ and _Gnan_ , we learnt something very new today.

**Dadashri** : It is a wonderful thing.

**Questioner** : Explanation was great. It clearified _darshan_ and _gnan_.

**Dadashri** : This is something that only the Lord would understand. The Lord has discovered a very subtle thing. And the Lord was the wise son of the wise mother.

How deep is this understanding! What a wonderful talk of the _Tirthankaras_! Do you not think so? Have they not explained _gnan_ - _darshan_ in detail? Otherwise people do not know it. If you ask them they do not know it at all, all they uderstand is _kadhee_ and _khichadee_ (soup and rice-lentil food).

How wonderful this is? One can achieve much more if one knows only this one thing, just this word. Did you understand it? I explained the complete meaning of it in your own language. That is why it has a very high meaning to it, which 'we' can See in our _Gnan_. It can also be understood at a gross level, that 'there is something there'. You attain some form of such _gnan_ , but you have not attained the _gnan_ , 'what it is'. Therefore, decided _gnan_ is called _gnan_ , and undecided _gnan_ is called _darshan_. How smart is that?

*****

#  [4]

#  _Gnata_ -Drashta, Gnayak

##  Knower-Seer Nature of the Self

**Questioner:** Dada, when you give us _Gnan_ , the knowledge of separation ( _bheda Gnan_ ) happens; where separation of _Shuddhatma_ (pure Self) and _pratishthit atma_ (discharging self) happens. Now _Shuddhatma_ is the Knower and Seer, and _pratishthit atma_ is discharging ( _galan_ ).

**Dadashri:** _Galan_ means doer and sufferer ( _karta_ and _bhokta_ ).

**Questioner:** It is the doer and the sufferer. So whatever _pratishthit_ _atma_ is doing, _Shuddhatma_ 'Sees' that continuously?

**Dadashri:** Yes, that is correct. _Shuddhatma_ 'Sees' whatever the _pratishthit_ _atma_ is doing. What is _pratishthit atma_? Union ( _yoga_ ) of three kinds, _manoyoga_ (union with the mind), _vachanyoga_ ( _yoga_ of the speech) and _kayayoga_ ( _yoga_ of the body), is called _pratishthit atma_. The One that is Seeing what these three are doing is the function of _Shuddhatma_.

**Questioner** : But this activity of the Self, of Seeing-Knowing all the _gneyas_ ; _Gnata-Drashta_ , that is also one of its activity, is it not? So that is its karma, is it not?

**Dadashri** : Knowing-Seeing is its main nature. Going out of one's nature is considered karma. Anything done contrary to one's nature is considered karma. Ones nature ( _swabhaav_ ) is not called karma. When water flows downward, it is not considered karma, it is called _swabhaav_ (nature); and one has to do karma to raise it upwards.

So Seening-Knowing is its nature. So what is its fruit? It is absolute bliss ( _param anand_ ) that is all. It is all-together. Seeing-Knowing and absolute bliss. There are infinite other attributes.

##  The Self has Only Gnankriya and Darshankriya

**Questioner:** Even 'seeing continuously' is doing something, is it not?

**Dadashri:** No, that is not 'doing' something. It is called _Gnan kriya_ (activity of the _Gnan_ ). There is no doer of it. There is no ego in it. All the other activities are of the ego. All _bhaavkarma_ are of ego.

**Questioner:** Then how can one remain only the Knower-Seer in worldly interactions ( _vyavahar_ )?

**Dadashri:** In worldly interaction, the 'self' is in the form of a doer, and really the 'Self; is the Knower-Seer. Now, what is he doer of in the worldly interaction? The 'self' is a 'doer' of worldly life, and the 'Self' is really the Knower-Seer; a doer of _Gnan kriya_ and _Darshan kriya_. There is no other activity ( _kriya_ ), there is no worldly activity.

_Gnan upayoga_ (applied awareness of the _Gnan_ ) is _Gnan kriya_ (activity of the _Gnan_ ), and _Darshan_ _upayoga_ (applied awareness of the _Darshan_ ) is _Darshan kriya_ (activity of _Darshan_ ). Now what is _Gnan upayoga_? This activity filled _pudgal_ results in activity, and the 'Seer' of these activity is the _Gnan_ _upayoga_. It is not a doer of any activity of the non-Self complex ( _paudgalik_ ). It is the doer of its own _swabhav_ (nature; the Self) and not of the _par bhaav_ (of the non-Self).

_Gnan kriya_ is needed for _moksha_ ; _aGnan kriya_ is bondage. What is considered _kriya_ (activity)? Activity with ego is called _aGnan kriya._ Egoless activity is called _Gnan kriya._ It means to continue to 'See' the discharging _karma_ effects ( _charitra mohaniya karma_ ). If one goes to eat food, that is discharge _karma._ That is 'seen' and to continue 'seeing' is _Gnan kriya._ With that _Gnan kriya_ , there is _Gnankriyabhyam moksha_ ( _moksha_ is attained through _Gnan kriya_ , means to remain as the Self and to 'Know'). What you are doing now, You Know that Chandubhai is doing that, You Know that _vyavasthit_ is the doer. When You keep Seeing that, it is a _Gnan kriya_.

Now, what is in people's understanding that, ' _Gnan_ and _kriya_ , _Gnankriyabhyam moksha_ ' ' _Moksha_ is through the activity of knowledge. So they hold that we have the _gnan_ (knowledge) based on scriptures, and we are also doing the _kriya_.' But that _kriya_ (activity) is called _aGnan kriya_ (activity carried out in ignorance, as the non-Self). And 'You' are doing _Gnan kriya_ (activity with _Gnan_ ; activity as the Self). Everything 'You' are doing is all _Gnan kriya_. Through that _Gnan kriya_ , there is _moksha_. Whatever activity is carried with _Gnan_ , is the basis for attaining _moksha_. _Gnan_ _upayoga_ is considered _Gnan kriya_. And all the solution has come through _Gnan kriya_.

##  Gnandhara-Kriyadhara Both run Separately

**Questioner** : What I was trying to understand is that, it has been said that track of doership and track of _Gnan_ do not run together, but our tracks run must together, no?

**Dadashri** : No. They need not run together. The track of doership is based on the unfolding karma, and You are the Knower.

**Questioner** : So that is happening and 'this' is the Seer.

**Dadashri** : Yes, that is happening and the Self keeps 'Seeing'. There is nothing else to do. The one who keeps Seeing Chandubhai is the Self; _Shuddhatma_. This is because the combined interaction of the doer and the Knower became separate. Before, their relation was joint; the 'I' was both the doer and the knower. So what was happening? It was double-edged. The track of knowing ( _amurtadhara_ ), and the track of doing ( _vishdhara_ ); they both ran as one. So what happened after _Gnan_? Both tracks became separate. Now, _Shuddhatma_ 's _amurtdhara_ (the track of the Knower) is separate and _vishdhara_ ( the track of the doer) is separate. There is this _Vignan_ (science) in this; here the slightest error will lead to a big loss. What happens when you switch the fan on and let it run whole night in winter? You have to come to me and understand this science. It is very important to understand this.

**Questioner** : But what if sometimes when I do something and then I feel in the mind that why did I do this?

**Dadashri** : The word 'I' should not come into that How can you use the word 'I'; 'I did it' when You are not the doer at all? You are not the doer of any activity; You have become the Knower-Seer. What state have You been given?

**Questioner** : Knower-Seer ( _Gnata-Drashta_ ) state.

**Dadashri** : And when You say, 'I did it'. You became involved in it, is that not indeed wrong? You cannot say, 'I did it' at all. When a doubt arises, it is the tendencies ( _vruttis_ ) that flow out, You do not. These tendencies are going out, but you think that You did. You have not, You are not there, so how can You say that? 'I' am the Knower-Seer. Do you understand all this _Vignan_? This is such a science that no one can touch it.

That doership now belongs to the _pudgal_. 'You' have now become the Knower, so doership does not remain, does it? The one who 'Knows' does not 'do' anything, and the one who 'does', does not 'Know' anything. Knowing and doing are two separate things. Karma is not created when it remains for You that 'I (now) Know this', 'I am 'the Knower-Seer'. And 'this happened to me, I am doing it', is not there.

**Questioner** : You have given us the Knower-Seer state, have you not?

**Dadashri** : Yes.

**Questioner** : So you were saying that, 'Our _mahatmas_ have _Drashta_ (Seer) state and 'we' have the _Gnata-Drashta_ Knower-Seer state'.

**Dadashri** : Yes, yours is the Seer state. It is the Seer state because Your Vision has opened up.

**Questioner** : Do we not have the Knower state?

**Dadashri** : Now one becomes a Knower as the experience (as the Knower) keeps increasing. However much experience happens, that much is the Knower state.

When someone curses him, he becomes rattled, but then he feels in the mind that whoever he cursed at is not 'I'. So because of that experience, such awareness will be longer the next time somone curses him. So this will then remain in the _Gnan,_ and as this happens more and more, _Gnata state_ is attained.

**Questioner** : So, as awareness ( _jagruti_ ) increases, does the Knower state ( _Gnatapada_ ) increase?

**Dadashri** : Awareness is there for sure, but it will not be maintained as long as there is that account of karma is not settled. As the account of karma is settled, _Gnan_ increases. When _Darshan_ - _Gnan_ come together, it is called _Charitra_ (Conduct). That is when _tapa_ (penance) is needed within! At that time there is significant friction within, it feels sticky bandage is being violently pulled off your skin along with some hair. When your heart heats up within, it is called _adeetha tapa_ (invisible penance) _. Adeetha tapa_ cannot be seen by anyone.

You can tell something from his face, but _adeetha tapa_ is not visible externally. And these people do external penance, the fruit of which is worldly fruit. Fruit of _adeetha tapa_ is _moksha_. The world (non-Self-realised) does not have _adeetha tapa_ at all.

**Questioner** : Dada, it is going to take a long for us, will it not? It will still remain a Seer state ( _Drashta pad_ ) for us, will it not?

**Dadashri** : Seer state is considered a very high state.

**Questioner** : No, for us it will still remain a Seer state ( _Drashta pada_ ), will the Knower state come?

**Dadashri** : Seer state remains. But then He goes into the Knower state all day long. So constant _Purushartha_ is going on, is it not?

**Questioner** : So it will keep on coming?

**Dadashri** : After becoming _Purush_ (the Self), _Purushartha_ is constantly going on. And five Agnas have been given only for that; to do _Purushartha_ only. _Purushartha_ is indeed constantly going on. Results of only _saiyam_ (absence of anger-pride-deceit-greed) happen. Even others will notice that they were fighting, having divisiveness due to difference in opinions, disturbing each other a while ago, and now they are friends and eating and drinking together; what happened here? That is _saiyam parinam_ (absence of _kashaya_ ).

##  Every Effect Falls off for the Gnani

_Gnani_ _Purush_ coughs violently, how he coughs. At that time, 'we' like that. Wow what _Vignan_!

**Questioner** : So who is this _Gnani_ _Purush_ who is coughing violently, and who is enjoying it?

**Dadashri** : The one coughing violently is _Gnani_ _Purush_ , and the one 'enjoying' is the _pragnya_ (liberating energy of the Self). Owner of _paristhiti_ (situation) is coughing. It is worth using the word _paristhiti_.

**Questioner** : But that is why Dada has said that no one is penalized or rewarded in nature, it just gives the effect.

**Dadashri** : Yes, it gives the effect.

**Questioner** : If we had not gone out last night, there not have been this time of coughing spell, no? That is the effect.

**Dadashri** : Then this effect would not have come. And these _parmanus_ (subatomic particles) would have remained within. Therefore it is correct that they came out. This is proper; according to (natural) law. This is in my _dhyan_ (awareness). This coughing needed to happen.

**Questioner** : But the effect has to be suffered.

**Dadashri** : You have to willingly and happily suffer the effect. Causes should not be created. Causes have to be stopped. If they cannot be stopped, then you should 'know' them. Cause cannot be stopped because they are _sanskar_ (effects of karma caused in past life) of the past life. They cannot be stopped, but you should know that a mistake is being made, that is all.

**Questioner** : So Knower-Seer view ( _bhaav_ ), if this happened as a part of this (coughing), then can we adopt it (Knower-Seer view) in every _vyavahar_ (worldly interaction) of life?

**Dadashri** : Yes, it is necessary in every _vyavahar_ indeed. The reason it is called _vyavahar_ , is because there is _nischaya_ (the Self) _Vyavahar_ and _nischaya_ are both separate indeed. This is proven by _vyavahar_ itself. And whole _vyavahar_ is a drama, and _nischaya_ is the Self as the Knower. That is how _vyavahar_ continues. It is a drama, and You have to keep seeing that, nothing else.

**Questioner** : Dada, it is not that straightforward ( _sarad_ ). Until we attain _Gnan_ , it does not come into our awareness.

**Dadashri** : Yes, it will not; not even a word will come in awareness. When 'we' give you _Gnan_ , some separation happens, and thereafter it will come into Your awareness.

##  Seeing is Swabhaav, Walking is Vibhaav

**Questioner** : In Hindi Aptavani it says that in this _samsaran marg_ (path of natural evolution), the world does not come to an end, and there is no end of us also. This path comes to end. 'The walking that you do' comes to an end.

**Dadashri** : The continuous 'Knower' ( _joyaa karnaro_ ) became free. And if he walks with the world, then he is bound to it.

**Questioner** : And the world will continue.

**Dadashri** : It will continue.

**Questioner** : That connection to (the world) is broken when one keeps 'Seeing' what is going on.

**Dadashri** : It is broken, the 'Seer' and 'the walker" become separate, do they not? _Sansar_ (worldly life) exists as long as you walk with the one who is walking (ego). When one 'Sees' the one who is walking, it is called liberation ( _mukti_ ). The world will continue for sure. Will it ever stop? Will it stop even if you ordered it to stop?

**Questioner** : It will not stop at all. There is a Seer and a 'walker' (doer) in ths body, is there not?

**Dadashri** : Yes, there are two parts, the Seer and the walker.

**Questioner** : So then the world continues, and along with it even this (the body, ego) will continue to walk with it, will it not?

**Dadashri** : But he, at the same time, says that, 'I am walking and I am also seeing', and so until then, there is bondage. He is constantly keeps 'seeing' and 'walks' with the body complex. Attribute of seeing will never go away, will it? Seeing is his nature ( _swabhaav_ ), and walking is _vibhaav_ (attribute that is not of the Self), _vishesha bhaav_.

**Questioner** : And the world will go on, it is said, is it not?

**Dadashri** : Yes, it will go on. And even in this as long as he walks, and continues to see and know (without separation), he will not get liberated. Only when he stops 'walking' and only 'Sees' will He become free. You keep 'Seeing' now onwards, don't You?

**Questioner** : But I have to keep 'Seeing' this 'Chandubhai' walking, do I not?

**Dadashri** : Yes, that is all. You have to keep Seeing this film that is running. Before one used to walk; and also used to see (mixture of knower and doer). He was the film and also the seer of the movie.

##  Is There any Difference in 'Seeing'?

**Questioner** : Many times it seems that this activity of constantly 'seeing' the _prakruti_ is happening through some other entity.

**Dadashri** : Yes, You do 'See', do You not?

**Questioner** : Yes, I do See that.

**Dadashri** : So what is at gross level will gradually happen at subtle level.

What You see; the world (non-Self-realised) cannot see their own Self. All You have to see is what 'Chandubhai is doing? What the mind is doing? What the _chit_ is doing? What the ego is doing? Now if this Seer remains separate, hundred percent separate, then no matter how gross or how subtle anything is Seen (within); the Seer is separate.

**Questioner** : There seems to be difference in the activity of 'Seeing' that was happening in the beginning, and the activity of 'seeing' now.

**Dadashri** : When unfolding of karma happens, everything may appear dim. But it is decided that You, the Seer are separate, is it not?

**Questioner** : Yes, that is decided.

**Dadashri** : Then, if it is dim, it is because of that unfolding karma. You should not raise any objection there.

**Questioner** : And when there is pressure of the unfolding karma, it feels that I have been left on the side.

**Dadashri** : Yes. You will feel that confusion has occurred. But it is not like that.

##  Exact Understanding of Knower-Seer

**Questioner** : Please explain to me what exactly is Knower-Seer. _Gnata_ (Knower) means it is based on mind-intellect, and _drashta_ (Seer) is based on the eyes, or is it based on chit? How can one be _drashta_ (seer) if his eyes are closed?

**Dadashri** : Thoughts that come to the mind, are subtle circumstances. See them.

**Questioner** : With what should I see them? With mind? With intellect ( _buddhi_ )?

**Dadashri** : Whatever You See, the mind and intellect will not be there; even eyes will not be there.

**Questioner** : This is the very confusion; I do not understand.

**Dadashri** : Seeing with mind-intellect is not considered Knowing-Seeing. Therefore, when You See subtle circumstances internally, circumstances of the mind; that is considered Knowing ( _Gnatapanu_ ). This Knowing is not dependent on mind-intellect, _Drashta_ (Seer) is not dependent on the eyes, it is also not dependent on the _chit_. It is dependent on _pragnya shakti_ (direct energy of the Self).

**Questioner** : This Seeing happens even when the eyes are closed?

**Dadashri** : It will be there, whether the eyes are open or closed. Therefore, all that you see through your eyes is not considered Knowing-Seeing. Through _pragnya_ within, You See the state of the mind; You See what thoughts the mind is doing.

**Questioner** : Does everyone attain Knowing-Seeing ( _Gnata Drashta pada_ ) state?

**Dadashri** : It is after _Gnani_ _Purush_ cleanses all sins ( _paap_ ), You can See, otherwise you cannot see the phases of the mind, can you? You can see those that are large ones, you willnot be able to see all the other ones, will you? See all those thoughts that come.

To See and Know what the entire file number one is doing, that itself is called Knowing-Seeing. Other people also say that they know. Like they saw and know this bungalow.

The Knower within does not Know the external. It does not need any help from the knowledge of the senses.

**Questioner** : It helps by remaining in the _Agna_ , does it not?

**Dadashri** : If You remain in the _Agna_ , then everything is done. You becomes complete.

##  The Knower is Beyond the Senses

**Questioner** : This Knowing-Seeing, is happening through these sense organs ( _indriya_ s)?

**Dadashri** : No, knowledge through _indriyas_ is not like that. The Self Knows all the _gneyas_ (that being known). _Indriyas_ (the sense organs) cannot know circumstances of the mind; intellect can know them. But intellect does not know all the circumstances of the mind. Now, circumstances of the mind onthat are pleasant, _aGnani_ will never know them. But with the power of our _Gnan_ , what You can See is called _gneya_. It can neither called _indriya gnan_ (information from the sense organs), nor _buddhijanya gnan_ (intellect mediated knowledge). People have taken _buddhijanya gnan_ into _indriya_. You may know knowledge from the senses ( _indriya gnan_ ) through senses ( _indriyas_ ), but _Gnan_ (Knowledge) without any _raag-dwesh_ is called _atiindriya gnan_ (knowledge beyond senses). Seeing and Knowing through _indriyas_ , without any _raag_ - _dwesh_ , is _atiindriya Gnan_ (knowledge beyond senses). Whereas that other person definitely has _raag_ - _dwesh_. If he does not have _raag_ , he has _dwesh_ , and if he does not have _dwesh_ , he has _raag_. And if does not have both, then he is _murchhit_ (deluded through _moha_ ).

**Questioner** : When does a state arise wherby the Self can Know and See without the assistance from _indriya_ (the senses)?

**Dadashri** : It can Know right now. Rignt now, it can See all the thoughts of subjects pleasant to the mind. It can See where the chit has gone. It cam See the subjects of the mind. That is where all this (the path of liberation) has begun. Whether _artadhyan_ arose or not, did _raudradhyan_ arise or not? All that began to come into one's Knower-known state. Once having started the progression (towards absolute Self), it will continue to increase day after day, step by step. And people on the outside cannot see that.

But people understand Knower-Seer in their own 'language' (according to their own interpretation). And in the _kramic_ path, everyone have become so called knower-seer. They tell me, 'We remain Knower-Seer'. I ask them, 'Can you explain to me how you are a Knower-Seer?' they say, 'Know and see, that is all. Know and see'. I told them, 'Seeing (through physical eyes) does not mean Seeing, and knowing through intellect is not considered Knowing.' So they felt trapped, that how different from what it has been till now? I told them, 'To See through right Vision ( _samyak_ _darshan_ ) and to Know through right Knowledge (samyak _gnan_ ) is called Seeing-Knowing.' So You See and Know what mind-intellect are doing. You See all that through _Darshan_ (Vision as the Self), you cannot see through your eyes. All of You can have _Darshan_ - _Gnan_ , but they (non-Self-realised) do not have that. They just believe that they can, in their mind. To see through sense organs is not _Darshan_ , it is a relative _darshan_ , and this here is a real _Darshan_. _Samyak Darshan_ (Vision as and of the Self) means real ( _swabhaavik_ ) _Darshan_.

Do you keep seeing desk and chairs in your office? Everything externally is seen through sense organ mediated knowledge ( _indriya gnan_ ). Whatever is visible, it is through _indriya gnan_. You have to remain the Knower-Seer of that which is internal. Knowing in worldly life is considered sense organ mediated ( _indriya_ ) knowing. You need Knowing beyond senses ( _atiindriya_ Knowing). This is all _indriya_ knowing, which will not do.

**Questioner** : How can one distinguish between 'this is knowing through _indriyas_ (senses), and this is knowing beyond senses ( _atiindriya_ ), through experience?

**Dadashri** : _Atiindriya_ Knows also what is known through _indriya_. Therefore, this is _gneya_ (that being known). Whole Chandubhai itself is a _gneya_. Knowing what Chandubhai is doing is called _atiindriya Gnan_. So, our _Gnan_ says that You are _Shudhatma_ , and You have to keep 'Seeing' what 'Chandubhai' is doing.

**Questioner** : That means that, as a _Shuddhatma_ , when I constantly See and Know Chandubhai as _gneya_ , is that called _shuddha upayoga_ (pure applied awareness of the Self)?

**Dadashri** : That is it. Then You are separate. No matter what Chandubhai is doing, if You only 'See' and Know and does not get involved in any positive or negative intents ( _bhaav_ ), then there is no problem. You are separate for sure.

**Questioner** : Now, whatever Chabdubhai is doing, whatever he experiences through his senses, I have to See that with _atiindriya_.

**Dadashri** : There is no problem with it, is it? What is the problem? You have become one with ( _ekakaar, tanmayakar_ , engrossed) in what you are eating, You have to also 'Know' that, that is all. And you did not become engrossed while eating, You have to Know that also.

This is a science ( _Vignan_ ). This is a very straightforward path, but if you understand that. It is not difficult at all.

When you become Chandubhai and see, it is considerd a sense organ mediated knowledge ( _indriya gnan_ ). It is not _indriya gnan_ if You become _Shuddhatma_ and then See Chandubhai .

**Questioner** : But seeing as a Chandubhai...

**Dadashri** : It will not help at all, will it?

**Questioner** : How does one know that?

**Dadashri** : One is always aware of that. He sees it as Chandubhai, does he not? You will know what Chandubhai is doing, because the _Shuddhatma_ You have been given is so much separate that You will Know everything.

**Questioner** : Please give an example of how one becomes Chandubhai and then sees Chandubhai, so that we can understand?

**Dadashri** : Chandubhai is not seeing Chandubhai, _Shuddhatma_ is Seeing Chandubhai.

**Questioner** : That is correct. But we know that through _indriya_ _gnan_ ; please give an example of that.

**Dadashri** : So, all this you see with your eyes, it is all through _indriya gnan_ (sense organ mediated knowledge), is it not? All this we hear through our ears, taste with tongue; it is all _indriya gnan_. Through the mind, mind is considered the sixth sense. Knowing through intellect ( _buddhi_ ) is all ignorance ( _aGnan_ ). All that goes into _gneya_. _Buddhi_ is called _aGnya_ , and _Shuddhatma_ knows through _pragnya_. Ultimate _Gnan_ is when _pragnya_ knows what _aGnya_ has done. It will not refrain from doing at least something. There is always restlessness within. You will Know that you ('Chandulal') have unnecessarily become insistant while eating. You are separate when You Know that. One suffers for being stubborn. He rejects and gets up without eating and then it becomes a problem when he becomes hungry.

**Questioner** : But when one is in more busy in the worldly interactions, at that time, say if there is a bus passing by, will Seeing with _atiindriya_ work or not?

**Dadashri** : How can he see, because there is an obstruction in the middle, is it not?

**Questioner** : That will continue as long as there is this body.

**Dadashri** : No. There is no such rule.

**Questioner** : Worldly interaction will remain...

**Dadashri** : No, it is not like that. It will go down day after day, will it not? How many buses will will pass at night? So it keeps going down.

**Questioner** : But Chandubhai's night will fall when he dies, will it not?

**Dadashri** : That is the end of all the karma. This whole account of karma has been setteled. But that other, when all the filled stock of karma has come out and emptied, then Purity will remain.

So it will all be discharged in this very life. Sooner or later it will be go down, and when new causes are not created and the old one discharge, then will anything remain? No, nothing will remain. In a short time, it will discharge, in two to five years. Mine discharged a long time ago. I am telling you that it will empty for You too. Some difficulty may arise, but there is no reason to worry about it. If any entanglement arises within, then as soon as You say, 'That is not mine', You will become separate. All that belongs to Chandubhai. It will try and affect you, because of the old habit. 'That is not mine'. Is it of Your boundry (the Self) or of that (the non-Self)? And so You says, 'It is not mine', and so You become free.

How much am I going to speak? When will it end, when it is all being written down? I am going to continue to keep talking.

**Questioner** : Whatever you say gets written down.

**Dadashri** : One will keep writing that down; when will that end? 'I' will not stop talking and your writing it all down will not stop. Do you have to write down your whole life?

**Questioner** : Yes. It will become useful to others later on, will it not? Here, all these people listen to what you are saying, but this is for others who miss out on hearing you.

**Dadashri** : What you are writing, the one who Knows that is the Self. It Knows whether you are writing it carefully, writing carelessly, writing it all with mistakes.

**Questioner** : Who remains the Knower-Seer?

**Dadashri** : Chandubhai is not going to remain, is he? Ego is not going to remain, is it? _Pragyna shakti_ (liberating light of the Self), agent of the main Self, remains the Knower-Seer.

##  Knower does not 'do', and doer does not Know

There is a difference between the doer and the Knower. The Knower Knows everything, and the doer does everything.

**Questioner** : And the doer has been called the ego?

**Dadashri** : That ego is different. So the part that is the doer within us is discharge part. Our real ego does not exist, so we are able to remain the Knower. Therefore the Knower is separate indeed.

So the Knower Knows everything, and doer does everything. These two act together and at the same time. The doer drinks tea, and at the same time the Knower Knows what it tastes like. The Knower has to be present at that time to know whether it was sweet or strong.

**Questioner** : Dadaji, this Knower is there for sure, is he not? Because he is completely separate.

**Dadashr** : Yes, it is when the Knower is there, that other goes away, it is gone. It goes away when it is Known.

**Questioner** : What do you mean by 'gone'?

**Dadashri** : The doer carried out the activity, and the Knower Knows that. Then that activity is gone.

The doer and the Knower do not know the same. The doer knows very little, and the Knower Knows everything, including all the phases and attributes. The doer is unaware so he knows only little, only that 'I did it', nothing else. And the Knower Knows everything, including all the phases and attributes.

**Questioner** : You said that the Knower does not do and the doer does not Know; please explain that the doer knows very little?

**Dadashri** : The doer does not know, but he only knows in words, that 'I did this'. He does not know anything, but the Knower Knows it in every way, because other intents ( _bhaavs_ ) do not arise for the Knower. _Bhaavs_ in the form of _raag_ - _dwesh_ , arise in (of the self). For you it is completely different. You do not have the 'doer' at all, do you? Whatever is happening, it is with a _discharge bhaav_. There is no doer left, so seeds will not be sown, will they?

**Questioner:** If anger ( _krodha_ ) happens and if I Know that _krodha_ has happened then will that anger go away?

**Dadashri:** No, it has nothing to do with that. The doer of anger is separate and the Knower is separate. We remain as the Knower. We do not like anger so We are verily separate from his (doer's) opinion. We are separate so We do not have anything to do with him.

**Questioner:** I do get angry sometimes.

**Dadashri:** So let anger come. What do You have to do with it? If someone gets hurt then ask Chandubhai to do _pratikraman_.

Do You understand 'doer' and 'Knower'? Knowledge of the doer is with _raag_ - _dwesh_ (attachment-abhorrence) and this Knower is _vitarag_ (without _raag_ - _dwesh_ ). The doer has _gnan_ (knowledge) too, does he not? But it contains _raag_ - _dwesh_. Does the one drinking tea not know he is drinking tea?

**Questioner** : Yes he does.

**Dadasdhri** : But that knowledge is with _raag_ - _dwesh_ . Then it enters into, it is sweet or bland.

**Questioner** : So whatever he does, He is separate.

**Dadashri** : You are separate, and many times You do not even like that (which the doer does). Even with such opinion You are separate from him.

**Questioner** : So whoever the doer is, is it mainly the ego?

**Dadashri** : That was it; whoever the doer was, this is the one. It is the same one who was there before _Gnan_. It is the same one whom you used to believe, 'I am that' (Chandulal). And the one who became separate (in _Gnan_ Vidhi) is You. You became separate when You attained _Gnan_ , you were not separate before that.

**Questioner** : Before we were together within.

**Dadashri** : We were together; we were one.

**Questioner** : We have now become separate within, however he is verily the doer.

**Dadashri** : Yes, he verily is. He is the same.

**Questioner** : He indeed is doing everything. He is doing the anger, he is doing the thinking...

**Dadashri** : He is the same one continuing to do on his own, there will not be any change in that. He is doing all that, but the Knower of that is separate.

##  Who is the Witness?

**Questioner** : Witness ( _sakshi_ ), Seer ( _Drashta_ ), absolute bliss ( _param anand_ )...

**Dadashri** : The witness cannot be the Seer, witness is the ego and Seer is the Self. Knower-Seer is the nature ( _swabhaav_ ) of the Self. Until one comes into the Self, there is _sakshibhaav_ (witnessing state). There is _sakshibhaav_ as long as there is ego. _Sakshibhaav_ means one remains the witness of his own activity, such as 'this many mistakes have occurred'. And _sakshibhaav_ is the work of the ego. This Knower-Seer is a path of complete _samadhi_.

**Questioner** : What is the basic difference between witness ( _shakshi_ ) and Seer ( _Drashta_ ).

**Dadashri** : Great difference. Whole world is into witnessing, all these _sadhus_ and _acharyas_ (are into being the witness) The same ego is alive. Witness ( _shakshi_ ) means ego. There cannot be any _sakshibhaav_ (witnessing view) without ego, and the Self is the Knower-Seer. As long as there is ego there is _shakshi_ , and after ego goes away there is _Drashta_.

**Questioner** : So then are _artadhyan -raudradhyan_ (adverse meditation states) linked with _sakshibhaav_?

**Dadashri** : No. It is not like that. It does not have anything to do with _sakshibhaav_. _Sakshibhaav_ means that lesser the _moha_ (illusory attachment) there is within, there is only that much _sakshibhaav_. Otherwise, how can one remain a witness ( _shakshi_ ) when there is _moha_ there? _Sakshibhaav_ will remain when the intoxication (from _moha_ ) goes down. When intoxication from alcohol goes down, one will became aware that, 'Wow! How much more intoxicated I became today'. That is how intoxication of _moha_ is. Whole world is wandering around in intoxication of _moha_ , and believes that 'I am doing _dharma_ (religion). _Mooah_ (mortal)! What dharma, it is a karma that you are doing. _Dharma_ is something that will spread its scent from all sides. And the other _dharma_ , _Atmadharma_ (religion of the Self) gives _moksha_. How can you call this a religion? Everything is in its own _dharma_ (natural state). Would anyone eat ice cream if it were bitter? If he ate bitter ice cream just one day, will he go there again?

**Questioner** : No he will not Dada, no one will go there.

**Dadashri** : The result of this relative 'religion' is intoxication. How can there be _shakshibhaav_ when intoxication (from _moha_ ) exists whole day? For some people, some intoxication has gone down, and so _shakshibhaav_ will remain for some time. Whereas the Knower-Seer state is constant indeed. _Sakshibhaaav_ is a kind of an awareness of the ego. _Drashta_ (Seer) is the awareness of the Self. It is called _pragnya_. It is called awareness of _pragnya_.

##  That is When 'self' Becomes the Knower

**Questioner** : You call Chandubhai a _gneya_ , then he cannot become the Knower, is that what you are saying?

**Dadashri** : When there is a _gneya_ , how does one become _Gnata_ (Knower). It is when _Gnani_ _Purush_ make you aware of the Self that You are. Then You become free from _gneya_ part. 'I am Chandubhai' is just a wrong belief. The reason it is called _gneya_ , is because the knowledge ( _gnan_ ) he knows is intellect based ( _buddhijanya_ ) knowledge. So this (Chandubhai) is _gneya_ , and You (the Self) Knows this _gneya_. Worldly life continues with this. When You know even this _gneya_ (Chandubhai) then Your are _Gnata_ (Knower).

That what is to be known, the Lord calls it _gneya_. He said that, 'What you believe to be _gnata_ (knower) today, if You understand that it as a _gneya_ , then You become the _Gnata_ (the Knower). The Lord says that, what you have believed till now that, 'I m Chandubhai and I am the knower', when you realise that as the _gneya_ (the known), You will become a real Knower.

The Lord was _vitarag_ , and a _vitragi_ talk (without any attachment or abhorrence) means as clear as light. Then there is all kinds of words interweaving of words, but the talk is the same.

##  Two forms of _gneya_

**Questioner** : It is written, in Aptasutra 4226, that 'There are two kinds of _gneya_ ; one in the form of situation ( _avastha_ ), and one is in elemental ( _tattva_ ) form. (1) When _gnatabhaav_ is seen as _gneyabhaav_ , that is when one comes into the Self. (2) As the _mamata_ (myness) that was in _gneya_ goes away, and as _gneya_ is Seen as _gneya_ , the Self progress happens.' Please explain that.

**Dadashri** : There are two kninds of _gneyas_ one in the form of situation, and one is in the form of element ( _tattva_ ). As a situation all _gneya_ are ( _vinashi_ ) destructible, temporary; and in elemental form they are indestructible ( _avinashi_ ).

In this _Aptasutra, gnatabhaav_ has been written for _aGnani_ (non-Self-realised). For the _aGnani_ it is, 'I am the _gnatabhaav_ (knower)', 'I know that'. If can see all this as the _gneyabhaav_ (known, to be known), then He comes into the Self. All our _Mahatmas_ are now able to See with _gneyabhaav_. Before, they were seeing as 'I am Chandubhai, and now Chandubhai has become a _gneya_ (the known), and You have become _Gnata_ (Knower). Before you were Chandubhai, and you were also the knower. When that _gnata_ (knower) is Seen as _gneya_ , that is when one comes into the Self.

Then my-ness ( _mamatva_ ) that existed for _gneya_ goes away. As one sees _gneya_ as _gneya_ , _Atmapushti_ (progess as the Self) happens. 'I' and 'my' go away. Now, this _gneya_ is Seen only as _gneya_. So _Atmapushti_ ( _Purushartha_ ) will continue if You keep Seeing this _pudgal_.

**Questioner** : Then in Aptasutra 4227, Dada says, 'From the time we came into Knower-Seer relation _gneya_ continue to become clear. _Gneya_ that have been settled will not come again, because they became clear and thus become settled. This means they became the elemental form'. Please explain that.

**Dadashri** : _Gneya_ continue to become clear from the moment You came into the Knower-Seer relationship. Knower-Seer means that You are the Knower ( _Gnata_ ) and Chandubhai is the known ( _gneya_ ). From the moment You come into Knower-Seer relationship, _gneya_ is Chandubhai, meaning _pudgal_ , continue to become clear. They automatically become clear and make You clear, free us.

'Whatever _gneya_ that is settled, it will not come again.' When, what was bound through ignorance ( _aGnan_ ), is settled through _Gnan_ , it will not come again. This is because it became clear ( _chokkha thhaya_ ) and settled. To clear means to become the elemental form ( _tattva swarupey_ ).

**Questioner** : Then, Aptasutra 4226 says, 'When the Self is Seen as the elemental Self; then all the other elements ( _tattva_ ) will be Seen. The real _gneya_ is in the elemental form, and without _kevalGnan_ (absolute Knowledge) it cannot be seen in the elemental form. But when it comes into _shraddha_ (Vision), it is bound to come into _kevalGnan_. When _gnatabhaav_ is pulled away, then the extract that supported the self gets pulled away'. Please explain that.

**Dadashri** : Without _kevalGnan,_ _gneya_ cannot be Seen in the elemental form. That itself is called _kevalGnan_ , is it not? But once it comes into Understanding-Vision ( _shraddha_ ), it comes into _kevalGnan_ (absolute Knowledge).

**Questioner** : What is considered _gneya_ in elemental form?

**Dadashri** : _Gneya_ in elemental form means these six eternal elements. To Know them as _gneya_ is not possible without _kevalGnan_.

**Questioner** : All the six elements?

**Dadashri** : Yes. These six elements are eternal. All elements are always eternal. They cannot be seen without _kevalGnan_ , but they do come into one's _shraddha_ (Vision through the Self). Then they are bound to come into _kevalGnan_. First, they come into _Darshan_ , then into _Gnan_ , and then they gradually come into _Charitra_ (Conduct)

When _gnatabhaav_ (here 'I know as Chandubhai') is pulled away, means the 'extracted' away from the body. 'I' ( _hoon-_ ego) was the _gnatabhaav._ That got pulled away. So the extract went away. Then the lifeless ( _nirjiv_ ) remains.

##  Real, gneya or _Gnata_?

**Questioner** : I am the Knower ( _Gnata_ ) and Chandubhai is _gneya_ (the known), similarly all the _Mahatmas_ sitting here are all _gneya_ for me. Then the question is that, for me there are both; Real and relative. Are Real and relative, both considered _gneya_ for me? Is the Real also a _gneya_? When Real is seeing the Real, then how can it be called _gneya_ ? This question is to clarify what I am experiencing.

Relative form of another person is all a _gneya_. Now one's own Real Knower ( _Gnata_ , The Self), likewise is other person's Real to be considered a _gneya_ or a _Gnata_?

**Dadashri** : It is called Knower ( _Gneya_ ). The Real cannot be a _gneya_. When is the Real as a _gneya_? It is for those who are forever the relative, for those who have not attained the separation of Real and relative ( _aGnani_ ). For them the Real is _gneya_.

**Questioner** : So _Mahatmas_ has the separation, so for them it (the Self) is not _gneya_.

**Dadashri** : For the _Gnanis_ of the _kramic_ path, that is considered _gneya_. They call other _atma_ (self) _gneya_. Then, if their disciples say the same, what is so special about that? It is because, for them there is no Real-relative separation. The problem arises because they do not have ( the experience of ) the Real.In the _kramic_ path, _atma_ (self) is a _gneya_ for any _Gnani_ , then what of the others (their followers)?

**Questioner** : So, I am constantly Seeing myself; meaning Chandubhai. I see others in the same way, because I experience that just as Chandubhai is ipart of me, all these others are included. So then question arises that these are all relative, but there is also the Real in them. So then how should I understand that? How can a connection between his Real and 'my' Real? Question does not arise at all if it (the other person) is a _gneya_. But if it is not a _gneya_ , then if he is a _Gnata_ (Real, Knower), and if I am also a _Gnata_ , then what is the link between him and me?

**Dadashri** : The Real (exists) very rarely. Except for the _Tirthankaras_ , _kevalis_ (One who has attained _kevalGnan_ ), and followers of the _Akram_ _Gnani_ , nowhere can the word Real be used. The word 'Real' cannot written, or beleived for anyone elese.

**Questioner** : That is why this question arises that what is the relation between other people's Real and our Real? Can his Real be considered a _gneya_ , or as _Gnata_ (Knower)- as one nature?

**Dadashri** : We are all _Gnata_ , not _gneya_. Write down the meaning of _gneya_ on a paper. Then when 'we' explain it to you, you will understand it.

You are _Gnata_ (Knower), and all this is _gneya_ , but which _gneya_? Relative. 'See' the relative, and also 'See' the Real within. Because all the _Atmas_ (Self) are Real, and all the external is relative. For You, external part is _gneya_ and the inner part is the _Gnata_. 'We' explain that to You from the very beginning.

**Questioner** : Yes, the day you give us the _Gnan_.

**Dadashri** : This _Gnan_ cannot be found anywhere else. If you have been bound by three knots; 'we' have to undo all the three knots; and if there are two knots, 'we' have to undo the two knots. Will it do if I undo just one knot?

**Questioner** : No, all have to be undone.

**Dadashri** : Only _Akram_ _Gnani_ and _Mahatmas_ have _gneyas_. How can you the Seer a _gneya_?

**Questioner** : Only because of _gneya_ , _Gnata_ can See and Know.

**Dadashri** : Others indeed say that he too the seer, does he not? How can you call (that which he sees) as _gneya_? There is also a Seer within (but he is unaware of the Seer). That is what they will say in ignorant state, will they not?

**Questioner** : Yes, that is how they will talk. How should I understand all this? It is for me to understand, not for others. it is not for the _aGnanis_. I am asking for my own self. How should I understand the other person; as a _gneya_ or _Gnata_?

**Dadashri** : Yes, all that you come to see and know are not _gneya_. In them, whatever is relative, is _gneya_ and what is Real is _Gnata_.

**Questioner** : So does that mean that _Gnata_ Sees the _Gnata_?

**Dadashri** : That is how clear a meaning it is; clear as a light, the fact. Do 'we' not clearly say that in the first and the second _Agna_? You have now become _Shuddhatma_. See _Shuddhatma_ in others. Violence ( _himsa_ ) happens when the _Gnata_ (Self) does not See the _Gnata_. Others (those who can not See the Self) are (always) in _himsa_. What is _gneya_? It is that which is worth knowing. So, in the _kramic_ path, the Self is a thing (absolutely) worth knowing, and You have (already) Known the Self.

You have to Know _gneya_ now. You have now Known the (old) _gnata_ (Chandubhai). And for them (ones in _kramik path_ ) their _Gnata_ is _gneya_ (the goal is the Self). When that _gneya_ becomes the _Gnata_ (Self realization), this (the rest) becomes a _gneya_. One may not even know that it has to be just settled ( _nikal_ ). Now, why has that _gneya_ has not become _Gnata_? The answer is that all who do _tyaga_ (renounce), all who feel that they should do this, and do that; they all consider the Self ( _Atma_ ) as _gneya_. They have not Known the Self, so they created a solution of doing penance.

**Questioner** : One who has not known the Self, for him the Self is a _gneya_.

**Dadashri** : The right Vision _(samyak darshan_ ) that happened for them, they know certain part of the Self, and not the whole. Gnanis of the _kramic_ path Know it (the Self), in its entirety (absolute experience) in their final life. Until then the ego does not go away completely. And one cannot be considered a _Gnata_ in the presence of ego.

**Questioner** : Now I understand that one cannot be considered a _Gnata_ in the presence of ego. I understand all that now.

**Dadashri** : If you come with three knots and tell me that you do not understand, then I have to undo all the three knots, do I not?

**Questioner** : Yes, Dada.

**Dadashri** : What people say is that they used to take care of that in just one word. Theirs was of only one knot. If there are three knots, one will have complete satisfaction only when all the three knots are undone, no? You will know how many knots are there. Now you do not have to create any new ones. But you will know how many are there.

##  Knower is Always Flawless

**Questioner** : I Know whatever is going on within, whatever thoughts, speech or anything else that comes within. But why is that considered a fault ( _dosh_ )?

**Dadashri** : Fault does not apply to the Knower. What do we consider as a fault? Worldly interaction that goes on whole day is not considered a fault.

**Questioner** : What I am saying is that, each and every subtlest thought that comes, I Know that...

**Dadashri** : Yes. You are the Knower. So this is not the fault of the Knower ( _jaankaar_ , _jaannar_ ).

**Questioner** : But what I am asking is that how can it be a fault of even the thought.

**Dadashri** : Fault is not of the Knower. There is no problem with his activity ( _kraman_ ) of Knowing what Chandubhai is doing, but when he Sees that Chandubhai is scolding someone, he tells him that he is at fault.'He' tells Chandubhai that it is his fault, and that he should not do that.

**Questioner** : But when I am the absolute Knower ( _Gnayak_ ), _Gnayak_ of even Chandubhai, there is nothing like fault or good in anything.

**Dadashri** : There is not. But what I am saying is that since this is _Akram_ , there can't be only the auspicious-good, can there?

**Questioner** : But where is the question of _shubha_ - _ashubha_ (auspicious and inauspicious; good and bad) at all?

**Dadashri** : What I am saying that there is no problem if everything that is to be Seen is auspicious, or good only. But as this is _Akram_ , there is also the inauspicious, or bad filled within.

**Questioner** : Correct Dada. What I am saying is that both _shubha_ and _ashubha_ have been filled withion (in the past), but if I am only the absolute Knower ( _Gnayak_ ), then whatever comes along, let it. Then where is the question of making the separation?

**Dadashri** : This is something that may appear contradictory. It is very difficult to maintain the awareness that _shubha_ and _ashubha_ are all _gneya_. So _Mahatmas_ have been told that when Chandubhai is cursing others, You should tell Chandubhai that, 'Why did you do atikraman? Do _pratikraman_.'

##  State of Gnani From a Fraction to Complete

**Questioner** : The mind shows 'pamphlets', the _chit_ wanders, the intellect makes a decision, the ego signs on it. There is no bondage in 'Knowing' all of that as it is happening, is there?

**Dadashri** : Yes. Bondage is not there only if You 'Know' that. The Knower has to be separate, only then there is no bondage.

When one becomes the Knower, if he remains the Knower, then everything goes away! But one does not always remain as the Knower, does he? There is a state of complete _Gnani_ , and a state of partial _Gnani_! On one side, there is state of Knowership ( _Gnatapad_ ), and on the other hand that other (involvement with the non-Self) also continues, both continue until the _Gnan_ becomes complete ( _sarvansha_ ).

Until it becomes complete, it does not happen suddenly. The state of Knowership does not always remain; it remains for a short time. Then it goes back to the way it was. In this way, it starts to become complete. This is because the past (account of karma) continue to push, don't they? When you have to climb the stairs, just because you climb a step at a time does not mean you have reached at the top. You have reached only as far as the steps you have climbed.

**Questioner** : Yes, but who becomes complete?

**Dadashri** : One (the Self) is complete indeed.

**Questioner** : He is; and the one who is not, is he becoming complete?

**Dadashri** : The one who is not is becoming complete.

**Questioner** : Is he becoming so automatically?

**Dadashri** : He is becoming complete automatically.

**Questioner** : And these people say that one has to make the Self complete.

**Dadashri** : There is nothing to be done. Who is the doer then? One is automatically becoming that. The main thing in this is that what is needed is the Vision 'we' give You in the _Gnan_ _Vidhi_. That is the main thing. Since _aGnan_ has been given and established, he needs _Gnan._

##  The Discharge of a Mahatma is Unique

**Questioner** : One has come with charged batteries of mind-intellect-ego, speech, body, from the past life. They are only discharging, right? Now whatever intellect he has brought, that is how it will unfold, work in him; can any change be made in that? Can it be changed after attaining _Gnan_?

**Dadashri** : When One 'Sees', the change indeed happens. it will shrink (from unnecessary use). It is the same _buddhi_ (intellect), but it will shrink. When You 'See', all the change happens. A pound does not remain a pound. And if you do not 'See', and further become a doer ( _karta_ ), then it increases five fold.

**Questioner** : So if one 'Sees' the _buddhi_ , then that which was 'one pound', it shrinks and becomes less. And if one keep fuelling it, it will increase by five fold.

So, that means that whatever has been charged, only that much of it will discharge is not the case anymore. It can change, it can increase or it can decrease. There is no such thing that it will discharge by only as much as it has been charged, is there? It will become less as it shrinks; does that happen?

**Dadashri** : Everything will become less. It will all go away. There may be a lot of snow, but it will all go away. If it is not gone away, then the tendencies ( _vruttis_ ) that are filled within will not leave you in peace. These tendencies will make you very restless, even when you are sitting in a train.

**Questioner** : So does that mean that One can make changes in his _prarabdha_ (effect) through _Gnan_ or through _Purushartha_?

**Dadashri** : It will all change for sure!

**Questioner** : It will change; so does it mean that that the Theory of Karma can be changed, we can turn it around?

**Dadashri** : Not like that; it is not called a change like that.

**Questioner** : Then what is it called?

**Dadashri** : What weighed a pound (in karma effect), becomes lighter with the change in the Vision ( _drashtifer_ ). And with that other vision, it increases five fold, because one becomes a doer ( _karta_ ). It will be lighter if One becomes the Knower ( _Gnata_ ).

**Questioner** : And, many times, it goes away when You 'See' it.

**Dadashri** : It may go away. It is like the work that happens with a short signature (initials). Will it not get done with just initials as signature, or not?

**Questioner** : It will.

**Dadashri** : That is how it will happen.

**Questioner** : Will it go away if one remains the Knower-Seer?

**Dadashri** : Nothing remains at all after that. All you can see is some scene- scenery; that is all. It will burden you if it (effect) remains. Nothing remains when You become the Knower-Seer. Until You become the Knower-Seer, some burden will be felt.

**Questioner** : You said that if I 'See' _buddhi_ or _antahkaran_ , whatever it may be, then what would have been a 'pound' becomes light if I remain the Knower-Seer. And if I give fuel to it, it will increase five fold. So does that mean that what is in discharge as a 'pound, increases as I give fuel (support) to it? So then change happens in the principle of charge-discharge (of karma)?

**Dadashri** : It does not increase.

**Questioner** : Then, what happens?

**Dadashri** : You feel the burden. By 'it increases', you take it into your own language (interpretation). That feels as a bureden and that other feels light; that is all. There is no increase or decrease. Discharge means that it has come to leave. It will leave, whether it becomes (feels) 'heavy' or 'light'. If it is too heavy, You will fail to 'See' it and so some of it will remain (to be Seen). Then You will have to settle that. Discharge means it has now come to leave. Dirty clothes have come for washing, so you will have to wash them again if you failed to them initially. That is all there is. But having washed once, we go to wash them again, it is still dirty and this is clean. If you try to do all that, there will be more to do. Whatever has been washed, it is good and complete.

**Questioner** : All that is washed, are washed.

**Dadashri** : Whatever has not been washed, remains to be washed. Not a single karma is bound when You 'See'. Otherwise, how much problem they would have created in a hundred and fifteen people _yatra_ (pilgrimage with Dadashri in India)? They would complain, 'These are the customs of these people. And those are the customs. This is how it should be. This is wrong of that, and this is wrong of the other. One person will say, no, it is good; and the other will say, it is bad. They have internal conflicts, and do not remain straight and easy. And there were hundred and fifteen of our _Mahatmas_ in the yatra, and there was no problem at all. Even if there are a thousand people , nothing will happen in our group. How wonderful a key it is ( to Be the Knower-Seer) , their mind is under natural control.

**Questioner** : You say that karma become less after attaining the _Gnan_ , so when You give us _Gnan_ , you destroy our karma; that is why our karma become less, do they not?

**Dadashri** : Karma are destroyed. Then, those that were not destroyed, they go away through Knowing-Seeing. Still, if there some that are very sticky, they will remain as the balance for the next life.

**Questioner** : I understand all this, now. But what you say that if we do not remain the Knower-Seer, then it will increase.

**Dadashri** : Burden will increase, will it not? One will continue to be entangled. Then, when the time is right, the entanglement will go away. All that remains then is to wash them off. It has no choice but to leave when the time is right. Everything has its time. Any circumstance has to dissipate.

**Questioner** : Based on the one's wrong understanding, it remains?

**Dadashri** : Understanding is all good (and present), but these karma are very sticky, are they not? That is why one cannot remain the Knower-Seer. Yet, if there is _Purushartha_ , One can remain Knower-Seer. When he falls, he will get up again, he will fall again and he will get up again, he will fall, but he will get up again. _Purushartha_ is in One's control, but one allows it to become lax.

**Questioner** : But no change happens in discharge. Discharge remains of the same amount.

**Dadashri** : Discharge continues to happen, but it happens through further entanglement thus increasing the burden. He has the experience, does he not? One gets entangled for upto fifteen minutes, or for upto half an hour, at some places, does he not? That is the burden indeed.

**Questioner** : But when does the burden increase?

**Dadashri** : When one does not have the Vision, or if You do not remain the Knower-Seer, then burden will increase.

**Questioner** : But then does he dig deeper within (the puzzle)? Does he add fuel to it?

**Dadashri** : No, he is not fuelling it; he does not maintain His awareness ( _jagruti_ ). There is n fuelling or any such thing there.

He does not know how to deal with it. He does not know how to deal here. So that a negative opinion is does not become formed of someone, You have to say that he is helpful person, he is a helpful person. So the negative opinion will stop. That is how one should know how to deal with him.

**Questioner** : So does understanding of 'how to deal' comes only when _pragnya_ (direct light of the Self) arises after attaining the _Gnan Vidhi_ , does it not?

**Dadashri** : Yes, only after that. It cannot happen before that. How much can the intellect ( _buddhi_ ) show? One will lot of intellect and ego are blind. These poor people with less _buddhi_ are much better.

To know all this, you only need circumstance of highest _nimit_ close to you, that is all.

**Questioner** : Change does happen in the current life when compared with what it was before, does it not?

**Dadashri** : The change does happen. However much the awareness he has, life changes that much. If he is aware, then everything goes away on its own.

##  Dada is Only as Gnani Purush During Vidhi

Not even for a minute I am in just one 'work', there are two 'works' going on every time. Only for a short period, when the _Vidhi_ is going on, I am in just one work. Otherwise, during eating, bathing I am in two 'works.'

**Questioner** : What are the two works?

**Dadashri** : When she (Niruben) is giving me a bath, and I am in My _dhyan_ , s Knowing-Seeing is there. Therefore, there are always two things going for 'us'.

**Questioner** : How can there be two works, when you are the Knower-Seer and she is giving you the bath.

**Dadashri** : I am bathing, and I am also talking to Him (Ambalal Patel) at the same time. He may know thatwe are bathing together. No one will know that I am involved in another work (Knower Seer). And, when other people become involved in another work, you will know that he is lost in that work. You will not see that in 'our' case.

**Questioner** : And what is the one work you are doing when You are doing the _Vidhi_?

**Dadashri** : In only the one work, only in doing the _Vidhi_.

**Questioner** : And as Knower-Seer, what then do You do?

**Dadashri** : I am not the Knower-Seer when I am doing the Vidhi. 'We' are exactly as _Gnani_ _Purush_ at that time, otherwise your work will not be fruitful, will it?

**Questioner** : Does exact mean that you become A.M.Patel , or what happens?

**Dadashri** : No, that is _Gnani_ _Purush_.

**Questioner** : Does _Gnani_ _Purush_ mean A.M.Patel?

**Dadashri** : No, A.M.Patel is this body. 'We' are the _Gnani_ _Purush_ at that time, otherwise _Vidhi_ will not produce any result. And we are not in a hurry, that we want to attain _moksha_ tomorrow.

**Questioner** : When you are doing the _Vidhi_ , You are the _Gnani_ _Purush_ , then where does 'Dada Bhagwan' go at that time?

**Dadashri** : Dada Bhagwan is sitting in the same place. My Vision towards that (Dada Bhagwan) becomes less, it stops. My vision is in Simandhar Swami at that time, or in some other place, when 'we' are doing your _Vidhi_.

##  Poised as the Self, Restless in Situations

Whatever situation ( _avastha_ ) arises, it is all destrictible (temporary), and because one lives in the situation, he remains restless. _Swa_ (the Self) is indestructible-eternal ( _avinashi_ ), and if one remains in _avinashi_ , he can remain poised ( _swastha_ ), otherwise he will continue to become restless ( _asvastha_ ).

**Questioner** : One can Know and See that he remains restless ( _aswastha_ ) in this situation, and yet he can not remain calm ( _swastha_ ) at other times ?

**Dadashri** : Yes, he can See. Still restlessness will not go away. What happens there is that the Seer is the Self that Dada has given. _Shuddhatma_ itself is the Seer. We all remain in that state (the Self), then there is no problem. Otherwise there is no end to the cycle of restlessness ( _aswastha_ ) and calmness ( _swastha_ ).

**Questioner** : What is the key for it?

**Dadashri** : The key is this: Whether there is restlessness _aswastha_ or calmness _swastha_ for anyone the Knower of that is the _Shuddhatma_. One becomes _aswastha_ so he sticks his hand in it, in the foreign (non-Self). He should not stick his hand in the foreign. Whether one becomes _aswastha_ or _swastha_ Your business is to Know and See; these are all _paudgalik_ (of the non-Self complex) situations. And the Knower of all _paudgalik_ situations is called _Shuddhatma_. _Paudgalik_ means there is _puran_ (filling) and _galan_ (emptying).Whatever situation arises for you, it will come only if it has been charged-filled ( _puran_ ).So it comes now and empties-discharges ( _galan_ ).

One is bound to be burnt if he sticks his hand into the foreign. 'We' do not stick 'our' hand in it, and 'we' also tell others not to do so, because you are bound to receive the fruit that you are supposed to receive. Moreover, he will receive double the fruit for sticking his hand. He incurs double loss. We have to incur just one loss. Situation is of 'Chandubhai'. 'You' have to continue to Know that it is just _aswastha_ (restlessness). It will end within quarter of an hour. You will not incur double loss if You continue to 'See' it.

**Questioner** : Longer a situation lasts, is there that much _avaran_ (veil)?

**Dadashri** :Yes, however much the _avaran_ , that much longer the situation will continue. But if You keep 'Seeing' as a _Shuddhatma_ , then no matter how much _avaran_ there is, it will leave in a hurry. It will be resolved. And if one goes to stick his hand into it, then the problem arises.

**Questioner** : So then where should the awareness be maintained?

**Dadashri** : Awareness has to be maintained in 'Seeing'. Not becoming _tanmayakar_ (the body-mind form) in 'Seeing' is considered awareness. The Seer ( _Drashta_ ) and what is to be seen ( _drashya_ ) should remain separate, that is called awareness.

Dada 'sees' both; 'what is' and 'what happens'. He Sees, 'What is' is the Self in everyone, and 'what happens'- he Sees it as happening on its own. If you see someone gesturing in a crowd, if one keeps sticking his head, and all that; but He is not doing all that. His Self comes into Your Vision ( _Darshan_ ), but it his _pudgal_ (non-Self complex) is carrying out all the activity. And that is a _galan_ (discharging) activity, not _puran_ (charging) activity.

##  All the Layers of Karma Effect Leave by Seeing

You do not have to do anything, You just have to 'See' what happens. You have to 'see' what the intent ( _bhaav_ ) that is made, _nischaya_ that happens. And thereafter You have to keep 'Seeing' what happens in accordance with the _nischaya_. Whatever is unfolding is according to the design that is from the previous life. Therefore, nothing remains for 'us' to do.

**Questioner:** Can we say that making a _bhaav_ is in my control?

**Dadashri:** No, that is also not under one's control. It is the design from the past life that is speaking (making _bhaav_ ). You do not have anything to do with it. You only have to keep 'Seeing' what happens.

**Questioner:** I have to keep Seeing the layer (of effect karma) when it comes, that is all.

**Dadashri:** Then that layer will leave, otherwise if You did not continue to 'See' instead you say, 'why is it happening to me?' it will increase the burden. But that layer (of karma effect) will not leave.

**Questioner:** Do I need to keep 'Seeing' even if it is right or wrong?

**Dadashri:** It is never right or wrong. The intellect shows you the wrong. If it is wrong, then what will You do if that layer comes? You have to keep 'Seeing' when it is right, and You also have to keep 'Seeing' when it is wrong.

**Questioner:** Simply keep 'seeing' both.

**Dadashri:** To maintain equanimity ( _samanta_ ) in both, is _Gnan_.

**Questioner:** Both are only discharge.

**Dadashri** : Both are discharge, therefore, if one understands every word that 'we' are saying, then his work will be accomplished.

**Questioner** : Now the goal is only towards wanting to understand Dada's _Vignan_.

**Dadashri:** Yes.

##  Keep 'Seeing' the Galan

**Questioner** : Should I keep 'Seeing' _galan_ (discharge) after attaining _Gnan_ , or should I do something to speed it up?

**Dadashri** : Who is the giver of speed? Who is the giver of speed, when the doer is gone?

**Questioner** : So allow it happen on its own only.

**Dadashri** : Keep Seeing only. You have to only keep Seeing whatever happens. Whatever you had charged ( _puran_ ), will give its fruit (effect) and discharge ( _galan_ ). It will be bitter if it was bitter, and sweet if it was sweet. It will give both fruits, and discharge ( _galan_ ), You have to 'See' that. You should not interfere ( _dakho_ ) with talks about speeding it up.

If you make slightest mistake in this straightforward science, then you may take a beating. If any confusion happens, then come to me, I will repeat the 'operation' ( _Gnan Vidhi_ ) for you. There is a possibility for confusion to happen through misunderstanding, is there not?

**Questioner** : Do I let go of that mistake?

**Dadashri** : You cannot let go of _Gnatapanu_ (Knowing). Knowing ( _Gnatapanu_ ) is our nature, and _gneya_ (what is being known) is always there. The mind will keep showing files till one's life is over. It will keep showing You, and You keep 'Seeing' them. There will not be any Knower ( _Gnata_ ), if there is no _gneya_. _Gneya_ is like a film. Mind will show files right till the end, so _Gnata_ will not go away.

##  Knower is the Solid Entity of the Self Only

**Questioner** : And this constant 'Seeing', what is to be 'seen'? Who does the Seeing?

**Dadashri** : The One who has become _Shuddhatma_ , one who has become the Knower ( _Gnata_ ) keeps seeing.

**Questioner** : Dada, this experience of _Shuddhatma_ that has happened for me, from that I feel that this is one solid entity of the Knowing-Seeing Self ( _Chaitanyapind_ ) so, in that what is there to do and to See?

**Dadashri** : The Seer is the Self only. The mass of _Chaitanya_ is the Seer. What does it See? It is Seeing the _gneya_. Therefore, the thoughts are _gneya_ , and You are the _Gnata_ (Knower). As long as _Gnata_ cannot see _gneya_ it is not considered _vyavahar._

When _gneya_ and _Gnata_ do not become one, it is called _Gnan_. You are not to become _gneya_. This worldly life has arisen because you had done soin the past (life). Thoughts are _jada_ (lacking Knowing Seeing ability). There is no _Chetan_ (Knower-Seer) in it. This worldly life has arisen by becoming one with the _jada._ One wanders for infinite lives, and has not attained anything yet. And in this, now the Self has become the Knower. He 'Sees' all the _gneyas_. He 'Sees' them without any activity. The light of the Self state ( _jyoti swarupa_ ) shines brightly. He does not have to do any kind of activity for that, it will shine on its own.

**Questioner** : It is correct that it shines in the state of the light of the Self ( _jyoti swarupa_ ). Is it this _jyoti swarupa_ who has to remain the Knower-Seer ?

**Dadashri** : The One who shines is the one who is the Knower-Seer. The one who is who is _jyoti swarupa_ , who is _Gnayak_ (absolute Knower), is _Shuddhatma_. That same One; no one else. Only _gneya_ are different. Good and bad thoughts, are both _gneya_. That _gneya_ is different, then intellect is also _gneya_ , mind is _gneya_ , ego is _gneya_ , whole world is _gneya_. Lord Mahavir himself kept Seeing only the _gneya_ , _pudgal_ (non-Self complex) only. 'You' are _Gnata_ , _Gnayak_ , and _pudgal_ is _gneya_.

##  Inside and Outside Brahmand?

**Questioner** : What does, 'seeing within and Seeing from outside the _brahmand_ ' mean? When one becomes _tanmayakar_ (one with) _gneya_ , he is considered within the _brahmand_ , and when Hee Sees _gneya_ in its _gneya_ form, He is considered to be outside of _brahmand_.' I cannot understand this.

**Dadashri** : Seeing from outside the _brahmand_ is itself called _Gnan_.

**Questioner** : What does _brahmand_ mean?

**Dadashri** : All this is _brahmand_ , is it not? All this is a reflection (photo) of it. When one becomes _tanmayakar_ in the thought of the mind it means that he is in _brahmand_. When thought arises and One does not become _tanmayakar_ (body-mind form) with it, then he is considered outside of the _brahmand_.

Whole world is _tanmayakar_ in _gneya_ , is it not? The world become _tanmayakar_ in whatever thought that comes. And You See what thought arises and what does not.

**Questioner** : And what does 'outside the _brahmand_ ' mean?

**Dadashri** : It means to remain in the Self.

**Questioner** : Yes, is _gneya_ same as situation ( _avastha_ ), or are they different?

**Dadashri** : They are all the same. _Gneya_ is all situations. Situation itself is _gneya_. As more and more _gneya_ are Seen, the _Gnatapada_ (Knower state) becomes stronger. And when One becomes the Knower of all the _gneyas_ , it is called _kevalGnan_.

##  Relationship of Gneya and Gnata

The Self is continuosly Knower-Seer by nature. The Self, _Shuddhatma_ , 'we' gave You, its nature verily is of _Gnayak_ (absolute Knower). Whenever _gneya_ presents, the _Gnayak_ is there its awareness ( _jagruti_ ).

**Questioner** : Yes, how should we use it in worldly interaction?

**Dadashri** : It is there in worldly interaction ( _vyavahar_ ) indeed. The _vyavahar_ is _gneya_ , and _nischaya_ is absolute Knower ( _Gnanyak_ ). This is indeed the relation between the two, _vyavahar_ - _nischaya_ relation. There is nothing else, besides _gneya_ in _vyavahar_. No one is _Gnata_ in _vyavahar_ , and there is nothing besides _Gnata_ in _nischaya_.

**Questioner** : I understood that very well. So, when five to six work activity come together in _vyavahar_ , then that view of the Knower-Seer goes awy, and then it comes back again.

**Dadashri** : No, it does not go away. It seems so, but it does not go away like that.

**Questioner** : One becomes _tanmayakar_ in other _vibhaav_ (non-Self) state.

**Dadashri** : It does not go away. Say if there is a light here, when you fall asleep, you will see darkness. Slight dozing does not mean the light is gone. It is the same shining light. So all this _vyavahar_ is in a _gneya_ form, and _nischaya_ is in _Gnayak_ form. Now, they became related, relation of _gneya_ - _Gnata_.

##  Constant Knower Seer is Indeed KevalGnan

**Questioner** : I have much awareness of _Shuddhatma_ , Knower-Seer view remains a lot. When I remain in the Knower-Seer view, I experience that I am a completely different thing and feel bliss.

**Dadashri** : Of-course You will feel that. You will feel that it is a different thing and You will experience tremendous bliss. That is considered blisss of _kevalGnan_. Some _Mahatmas_ can experience the bliss of _kevalGnan_. Many of our _mahatmas_ , sometimes when such moments arise within, they even say, 'I am the Light of the absolute Knowledge ( _Hoon kevalGnan swarupa chhu_ )'. They can say that because for some moments one does become _kevalGnan swarupa_. Fraction of it has arisen. Now, as the karmic debt is settled, as the overdrafts (from past life) are paid off, one will understand all this more.

All of You _Mahatmas_ have become complete Knower-Seer, but You are _kevalGnani_ (absolute Knower) if You can constantly remain the Knower-Seer. Constancy is needed.

One who remains constantly the Knower-Seer is _kevalGnani_. But if one remains fractionally (time wise), then it will gradually increase by fraction. It increases as karma are settled. So there is no interference in this. This is the only path. That is the only highway. Proportion (time wise) of Knowing-Seeing increases as the files become less, fewer. It increases all the way to _kevalGnan_. That does not happen suddenly.

##  Knower-Seer Does not Have any Problem

_Vyavasthit_ will run things wonderfully if one becomes the Knower-Seer. I have not given you anything, nor have you taken anything here. What You have is Your own. All You have to do is to accept the _vyavahar_.

**Questioner** : Who has to do the _vyavahar_ that you mentioned?

**Dadashri** : The Seer has to. The one who is the Knower-Seer, he has to See that the film is like is like this.

**Questioner** : Yes. Is that just to be Seen only?

**Dadashri** : What else? See the _vyavahar_ only. For the Seer, there is no such thing as good and bad. It is intellect ( _buddhi_ ) that has that; the Seer does not. Intellect of profit-loss says that this is good or bad. But the Seer does not have all that.

So there is no problem in becoming the Knower-Seer. _Drashya_ (what is to be Seen) and the _Drashta_ (Seer) are always separate. _Drashya_ never becomes stuck to _Drashta_. Eyes do not get burnt when you are watching a bonfire. So in Seeing, the world is not an impediment. There is bliss in Seeing.

##  The Self Does not Need Anyone

**Questioner** : Are the qualities of _prakruti_ (non-Self) and the Self completely separate?

**Dadashri** : They are separate, are they not?

**Questioner** : When we say that _Shuadhatma_ is only the Knower-Seer, I can understand that it is a Seer, but when we say that it is a Knower, then through what medium does it receive knowledge? It does not use _prakruti_ as the medium at all, does it?

**Dadashri** : It will not use anyone; it does not also seek anyone's help. The Self is independent. It is _Paramatma_ (absolute Self). It has its own infinite energy. The Self does not have to acquire knowledge from anyone else. The One whose body itself is _Gnan_ , itself is in the form of _Gnan_ , in the form of science ( _Vignan_ ), where then is the question of acquiring knowldge from someone?

**Questioner** : When as a Seer ( _Drashta_ ) I am Seeing the _prakruti,_ that is fine, but when I become the Knower ( _Gnata_ ) of it, then I know only through some medium of the _prakruti_ , any thoughts or its attributes. How would I know otherwise?

**Dadashri** : No. The Self is by nature the Knower indeed. The knowledge that _prakruti_ brings with it, what comes into the _prakruti_ , has been planted- established from the Self only. The intellect ( _buddhi_ ) is the 'implantation' of the light of the Self only (indirect light of the Self through the medium of the ego); nothing else. So, except the Self, there is no place where there is the attribute of Knowing at all. This is where all the attribute of Knowing has arisen (from the Self). If Knowing-Seeing are the two attributes, they are only of the Self. Besides that, there is no Knowing-Seeing anywhere else, and whatever _prakruti_ knows, it is due to implantation ( _aropan_ ) from the Self. There is nothing else. Attribute of knowing is not in the _prakruti_ at all.

**Questioner** : What does that mean? Should one not do any implantation ( _aropan_ )?

**Dadashri** : 'Not to do' is the wrong 'anguage indeed.

**Questioner** : So then how am I to remain the Knower-Seer? How can I directly remain Knower-Seer without any medium or help from anything?

**Dadashri** : Its nature itself is Knower-Seer. I will explain that to you. You have understood Knower-Seer in your own language (interpretation).

**Questioner** : Dada, It is true when we say that the Self is Knower-Seer. Now if the Self is the Knower-Seer, then does Knowing-Seeing happen with the help of the subtle ( _sukshma_ ) body?

**Dadashri** : No. Would you see yourself in the mirror when you go in front of it or would you not? Does the mirror have to do anything in that? Similarly, all this shines in the presence of the Self. A physical mirror is _aChetan_ (absence of Knowing-Seeing attribute) and that other, the Self is _Chetan_ (presence of Knowing-Seeing attribute). It all shines within the Self. So then One Knows what happened, who all are visible in it. That is how the Knower-Seer is. Final Knower-Seer is like this.

**Questioner** : Final is fine, but suppose if I am doing some work, if I am seeing, then will I feel that is Chandubhai doing all this?

**Dadashri** : Yes.

**Questioner** : But I feel in my mind that Chandubhai is doing something, but who is explaining all that explaining to him? At that time, mind, chit, everything become present.

**Dadashri** : That is called _pudgal_ (non-Self complex) and that is _Chetan_ (the Self). What you call the Self in that _Chetan_ , that Self is not doing anything. There is a _shakti_ (energy) called _pragnya shakti_ from that Self, which becomes separate. You can See everything with that _pragnya shakti_. So _pragnya shakti_ separates from it. What is the work of that _pragnyashakti_? It is always finding ways to see how can it can take the Self to _moksha_. It makes You aware or cautions You. Now what is the other energy contrary to it? It is _ugnashakti_ (energy of ignorance of the Self), it is what we call _buddhi_ (intellect). It does not let you go to _moksha_. It will keep entangling you and bring you back inside its 'circle'. Now what does _pragnya shakti_ do? It takes that entangled one, to the other side.

**Questioner** : So with _pragnya shakti_ we can remain Knower-Seer?

**Dadashri** : That is it, with _pragnya shakti_. Not even with the Self.

##  One who Remains Knower-Seer is Indeed Vitarag

**Questioner** : We were discussing about who can remain absolutely a Knower-Seer? So I said that the one who is a _vitarag_ can be so. He can constantly remain the Knower-Seer. And he was saying that, no, one can remain so even if he is not a vitarag.

**Dadashri** : No. That is not what _vitarag_ means. _Vitarag_ means, however long one remains Knower-Seer, he becomes _vitarag_ for that long. If remains completely (constantly), then he becomes complete _vitarag_ , that is all. Hence, Knowing-Seeing is indeed _vitarag_. _Vitarag_ means that if one remains Knower-Seer for a little while, even for fifteen minutes, he is _vitarag_ for that long.

**Questioner** : When _raag_ - _dwesh_ (attachment-abhorrence) is completely gone, then more Knowing-seeing will come, will it not? Is that correct or not?

**Dadashri** : _Raag_ - _dwesh_ are already gone, where do you have to get rid of them?

**Questioner** : Yes, they went away upon attaining _Gnan_.

**Dadashri** : Departure of ego is itself leaving of the _raag_ - _dwesh_. Whatever _raag_ - _dwesh_ there is, it is discharge _raag_ - _dwesh_. Where is the question of removing _raag_ - _dwesh_ when charge _raag_ - _dwesh_ is gone? Now, however pure is Your _upayoga_ (applied awareness), only that much Knower-Seer You are. And if the _upayoga_ cannot remain pure and you continue to become entangled in this, then that much Knowing-Seeing will not be maintained.

##  Knowing-Seeing the Antahkaran is Higher

Therefore, the highest meaning of Knower-Seer is that He Knows and Sees everything 'he' is doing within, what mind-intellect-chit and ego are doing. He Knows all of this, Sees all of this from all aspects, that is all. Nothing else.

You are the Self, the Knower-Seer. Whatever is happening or not, if You let go of Knowing-Seeing in the slightest, then you will have a problem. You are who You are. This _Gnan_ that 'I am _Shuddhatma_ ' should remain the same.

**Questioner** : ' _Keval nij swabhaavnu akhand varte Gnan_ (the uninterrupted experience of the Selfstate only prevails)'. Then from what you said, whole day One remains only in the Self. Is that called ' _akhand varte Gnan_ '?

**Dadashri** : It is something else it is trying to say. ' _Keval nij swabhaavnu akhand varte Gnan_ (uninterrupted experience of the Selfstate only prevails)' means that there is nothing else but constant Knower-Seer State, that is what He (Krupaludev Rajchandra) is trying to say. That state is still far from us.

##  Relation of the Self With the Destructible World

**Questioner** : After realizing the Self, what is a relationship of the Self with the _vinashi_ (destructible) world?

**Dadashri** : Have you ever been a movie? What relation do you have with the movie? There is a screen there; do you have any relation with that screen? What relation do you have?

**Questioner** : Just of seeing it.

**Dadashri** : That is it. Similarly You have to only See. There is no other relation. The Self will go away when You do not See. So You have to See. There cannot be _Gnata_ , if there is no _gneya_. Presence of _gneya_ suggests the presence of the _Gnata_.

As long as the movie is running, there is a value of the viewer; otherwise there is no value of the viewer of the movie if the movie is not running.

##  This is how the Link of Knower-Seer Remains

**Questioner** : Today, when I was sitting in _nityakram_ (daily spiritual routine), I lost awareness towards the _dhyan_ (meditation) of the _vitarag_ for about seven minutes. After having lost it, I had the awareness that, 'I am full of infinite Energy', and when I repeated 'I am full of infinite Energy' every minute...

**Dadashri** : When the link to the awareness breaks within, You have to say, 'I am full of infinite Energy' or 'I am full of infinite Vision'. When You say that then it will fit. Link is all _paudgalik_ (non-Self), and it is in _gneya_ form.

**Questioner** : Can this happen?

**Dadashri** : Yes, it happens, this happens many times. And it is in a _gneya_ form and that link breaks. _Gnata_ is always there, if the link breaks, it will will br restored when You say that.

You Know when the link breaks, You are the Knower of that and You are also the Knower of the link that is continuous. You are the Knower State. If you have gone to see a movie and it suddenly stops running, and there is a problem, then know that it has stopped. And when it runs again, then know that it is running, you do not have anything to do with it.

##  See the Waves of the Mind Like a Movie

**Questioner** : Please grace us so that we can be the Knower-Seer forever.

**Dadashri** : There is exactly such grace. You are in the Knower-Seer state forever. But when the light of this _Gnan_ is dim, it seems that way, otherewise You are forever the Knower-Seer.

Who Knows that this light is dim? That is the main Self. So it is only in the Knower-Seer state that constant experience exists. Whenever the waves (in the mind, the _antahkaran_ ) come, You have to See them, that currently it is like that. The Self is _Gnayak_ (absolute Knower) by nature and to Know and See _gneyas_ is its nature. So what happens when _gneya_ is not there? Its Knowing state stops. So these waves (distrubances within) and all the _gneyas_ , keep seeing them. Those waves may be useful or useless. Whether they are contradictory by nature, or are contrary to scriptural knowledge, You still have to just See them; you do not have to do _dwesh_ towards it. Our science is different. You can beome completely free through our _Akram_ _Vignan_.

**Questioner** : _Sukshma_ (subtle), _sukshmatar_ (subtler) and _sukshmatam_ (subtlest), is there difference in such _niddhidhyasan_ (visualization)? All these are completely beyond the senses ( _atindriya_ ), are they not?

**Dadashri** : Which?

**Questioner** : _Sukshma_ (subtle), _sukshmatar_ (subtler) and _sukshmatam_ (subtlest), is there difference in such _niddhidhyasan_ (visualization)? All these are completely beyond the senses ( _atindriya_ ), are they not?

**Dadashri** : It is all _atindriya_. The stock of the Self is verily is ( _atindriya_ ) beyond the senses.

**Questioner** : So is that what is called uninterrupted awareness?

**Dadashri** : This verily is the uninterrupted awareness. When it illuminates absolutely, it is called _kevalGnan_.

What was to be seen on the other side, when it cannot be seen, it is becauuse there comes an obstacle in the middle. The movie of our worldly life comes in the middle. When there is no movie of our worldly life (of _raag dwesh_ ), when the account of karma becomes empty, then there will be extraordinary bliss.

**Questioner** : What is there to See on the other side?

**Dadashri** : The other side is the exact _gneya_.

**Questioner** : What do you mean?

**Dadashri** : This is not exact _gneya_. These are all unfolding of our karma. We can See the exact _gneya_.

**Questioner** : What can we know in the exact _gneya_?

**Dadashri** : That will be understood later. For now, you should not rush.

**Questioner** : Is exact _gneya_ associated with _dravya_ (element matter) _guna_ (attribute) _paryaya_ (phase)?

**Dadashri** : Yes.

**Questioner** : When one becomes _tanmayakar_ (engrossed, body-mind form) in the _gneya_ , does not remain the Knower of _gneya_ , then will he not be stuck in the _vibhaav_ (non-Self, 'I am Chandulal')? Does that not happen?

**Dadashri** : No, no, no. This _Gnan_ is such that one will not prevail (stuck) in _vibhaav_ , because Knower remains present. Knower-Seer remains present. It is not in the nature of the Self, the Knower Seer to become _vibhaavik_ (of non-Self), it is _swabhaavik_ (natural; of the Self). This science is such that _vibhaav_ ('I am Chandulal') will not arise at all. This _Vignan_ is an exactly an separated _Vignan_. Nothing will touch it. Nothing will touch; nothing will obstruct it. Something may show its power a little bit against it. But how long will that last? It is temporary and You are permanent. Who is it to show its power? It is temporary. Do what you can, I am permanent, what is the temporary ever going to do to the permanent? If you search for the permanent in the whole body, it is just You only (Self).

**Questioner** : Unsteadiness comes for just one layer and then everything rearranges itself and becomes steady.

**Dadashri** : Yes, one will slip a little because of the experience of many life times. You should then understand that no one else is there; it is just You (the Self). It is true that one will slip because he has done nothing but this _bhangfod_ (construct-destruct) for many lifetimes. Now it is this _Vignan_ that has held them back him. This is a science; it will bring success in everything. It will bring total success.

##  One who Knows the Self as the Self is Absolutely Free

To keep Knowing is Our nature, and to keep becoming spoilt is the nature of the _pudgal_. There is only one Knower, and things to be known are infinite. One who knows the other (non-Self) as the other is free. One who knows non-Self as non-Self, and the Self as the Self, is absolutely free. When You know the non-Self as non-Self, at that time if mind-speech-body complex does not become unstable (unsteady), then it can be said that the Self has been Known as the Self. But if it becomes unstable, it means that the Self has not Known the Self.

**Questioner** : Dada please explain, 'When You know the non-Self as the non-Self, at that time if the united complex of mind-speech-body does not become unsteady, then You will know the Self as the Self'?

**Dadashri** : _Swa_ means the Self and _para_ means this _pudgal_ (non-Self complex), which is different thing. When you know it as a separate thing, at that time mind-speech-body that are within only the _pudgal_ (non-Self complex), if they do not become unsteady, then _swa_ (the Self) is considered to be complete. One is not in the Self if it-the non-Self becomes unsteady (imbalanced). Therefore, the One who Knows ( _jaannaar_ ), if he is weak, he is bound to become unsteady ( _kampayamaan_ ) , and if He is strong, He will not become unsteady. Therefore, our _mahatmas_ will not become unsteady, because they are sitting here as the Self) with _Akram_ _Vignan_ , so they are sitting in the 'lift' (elevator).

##  Drashya ad Drashta are Always Separate

Nothing can affect you by Knowing-Seeing. Insult gives rise to dislike, the one who 'Sees' that dislike is Mahavir (great hero). Respect gives rise to like, the one who 'sees' the like is Mahavir. You say that this, _bhaav_ (like) and _abhaav_ (dislike) cannot happen at all, that is of no use.

Seer ( _Drashta_ ) and things to be seen ( _drashya_ ) do not become one. If they do become one, then it cannot ever be called the Self.

**Questioner:** So both things have to exist at the same time, is that so?

**Dadashri:** It can be called the Self when both work are happening, otherwise how can you call it the Self?

**Questioner:** How is that?

**Dadashri:** If there is only the 'Seer' and nothing to see, then what is he going to see? So the 'Seer' ceases there. Therefore you need the two. You have to have both, something to see and a 'Knower-Seer'. Nothing can be attained by just one, can it?

**Questioner** : It cannot happen. But in this; why are there two things, to read and at that time to talk also?

**Dadashri** : The Self is the same, is it not? The Self is in everyone, is it not? The Self Sees and Knows whatever you do. The doer will do, but will he do ianything if the Self is not there?

**Questioner** : And the world will not be there without the two, will it?

**Dadashri** : There will not be any presence (of the Self) at all. The Self will not be there.

**Questioner** : What do you mean?

**Dadashri** : If the Seer becomes one (with the non-Self), then the Self will not remain. If only the Seer remains and if there is nothing to See, the Seer ceases to exist. His presence goes away.

**Questioner** : Does the Seer exist because of the thing to be seen?

**Dadashri** : Yes, only then it will happen, will it not?

**Questioner** : _Gneya_ will always exist in the world, will they not?

**Dadashri** : But people push _gneya_ away. When you push _gneya_ away, the Self goes away. You need both together. _Vyavahar_ (worldly interaction) is _gneya_ , and the Self is the _Gnata_.

Mind will show You the 'movies', You have to remain the Knower-Seer of them. You have to remain the Knower-Seer of subtle ( _sukshma_ ), subtler ( _sukskmatar_ ) and subtlest ( _sukshmatam_ ) circumstances.

**Questioner** : Dada, its settlement, its discharge; can it be made to happen quickly?

**Dadashri** : What will happen if that movie ends quickly? The Seer will have to go home early. So let is happen slowly. Tell him ( file 1) not to rush it.

**Questioner** : Dada what you are saying is correct in that way, but if I See it the way You do, so that more inner bliss is experienced, then that other thing (pain of worldly life) will quickly go away.

**Dadashri** : Yes, yes; but when you cannot see with Your eyes, you walk around with glasses, 'Dada is with me, Dada is my glasses'. Now, You have become Knower-Seer of this (Chandubhai). You have only one thing that remains for You, 'What is Chandubhai is doing, or not doing'. Nothing else; is there?

When the movie ends, interim government becomes a full government. As long as one is Seeing the movie, it is an interim government.

##  Only Knower-Seer is considerd Gnayak

'Wearing this garland of flowers', people are seeing this. The seer may feel in his mind that 'what is he wearing?' and we' too laugh that, 'Ohoho! What is he wearing?' Would it not make 'us' laugh that what is Ambalal wearing and walking around with? When One remains the Knower of his self, he does not need any other knower.

**Questioner** : What a _sutra_ (aphorism)!

**Dadashri** : Yes. That much is enough. There is no need to go beyond that.

**Questioner** : Is there any difference between _Gnata_ and _gnayak_?

**Dadashri** : When onlythe work of Knowing is happening, then there is the _Gnayak_. If this is not happening, then that is called _Gnata_. Even when exclusive Knowing is not happening, the _Gnata_ is present. _Gnata_ is _Gnata_ , and _gneya_ is _gneya_. And _Gnayak_ is considered a _Gnayak_ when it is ints role of exclusive role of Knowing. Why did you have to ask?

**Questioner** : I had read somewhere that 'I am _Gnayak'_.

**Dadashri** : At home he is called Chandubhai, and when he goes to the office, they will say, 'magistrate is here'. Do they not say that? So then is he not the magistrate at home? The answer is, that whatever is appropriate in a situation is correct. We are always the Knower-Seer for sure.

##  Gnayakbhaav is the Final View

**Questioner** : _Gnayak_ and _upayoga_ , so is _Gnayakbhaav_ not indeed th _upayoga_?

**Dadashri** : Yes. That is the _upayoga_ , but _Gnayakbhaav_ (Knowing only) should remain. Coming in _Gnayakbhaav_ is itself the _upayoga_ ; there isn't any other _upayoga_. And if _Gnayakbhaav_ is not there, means that the _upayoga_ is gone.

**Questioner** : So then what is the difference between _Gnayak_ (knower) and _jignyashu_ (seeker)?

**Dadashri** : Tremendous. There is not even a link between _Gnayak_ and _jignyashu_. So where does _jignyashu_ stand? _Gnayak_ has become a _Paramatma_ (absolute Self). _Jignyashu_ will have to 'make' a guru, he will have to keep searching for one. Inquisitiveness ( _jignyasa_ ) has arisen within him, hence he has become a _purusharthi_. Wheras _Gnayak_ is a God. However much You remain the _Gnayak_ , You are God for that much time. For that much time fractions of _kevalGnan_ accumulate.

**Questioner** : You have made us a _Gnayak_ , you have placed us in that state. Our current state is not the same as yours, is it?

**Dadashri** : No, but what it is, is that those attaining that state are all considered one, because mental ( _aadhi_ ) and physical ( _vyaadhi_ ) and externally induced suffering ( _upadhi_ ) of any situation goes away.

**Questioner** : Yes, all the _aadhi_ - _vyadhi_ goes away.

**Dadashri** : That is all, when _aadhi_ - _vyaadhi_ - _upadhi_ does not hinder; that is true _Gnan_. Then if you do not have to read any book, if nothing ahead (in future) becomes weak, then the _Gnan_ is right. Otherwise when is there an end to what you have to keep reading?

Mixture of 'I am doing it' and 'I know it', is called _gneya_ ; and 'I Know' and I am not doing it' is called _Gnayak_ _bhaav_.

**Questioner** : There are all these dualities; this is _himsa_ (violence) and this is _ahimsa_ (nonviolence), this is good and this is bad etc. Does the _Gnayak_ experience them, or keeps Seeing them?

**Dadashri** : Everything is a _gneya_ ; _gneya_ and _drashya_ have been separated. This is _gneya_ and this is _drashya_. There is no other problem.

**Questioner:** Then _Gnayak_ does not experience such difference, that this is good and this is bad.

**Dadashri** : There is no such thing as difference ( _bheda_ ), is there? To a _Gnayak_ ; to the Seer, there is no such as difference. Ego is blind, and differences like good and bad are for the blind. And to the One who can See, there are no such difference.

**Questioner** : You had asked if I was in _himsa_ or in _ahimsa_? And I had answered, 'In _ahimsa_ '. At that time I felt that where is such a thing as _himsa_ or _ahimsa_ for Us? Is that correct?

**Dadashri** : That is correct. By 'we' means that there is no problem if You have become _shuddha_ (pure), is there? There is nothing left for the One who has become pure, is there?

**Questioner** : You have put us in the non-doer ( _akarta_ ) state, so we have no concern left.

**Dadashri** : Yes, that is correct. One mantains the non-doer state.

**Questioner** : If One is completely in his _Gnayak_ nature, and then violence towards a living being happens through Chandubhai. He ( _Gnayak_ ) does not have anything to do with it at all, does he?

**Dadashri** : _Gnayak_ does not have anything to do with it.

**Questioner** : So you are saying that it is Chandubhai who has to do with it, so make Chandubhai do the _pratikraman_ , if you want him to do _pratikraman_.

**Dadashri:** People will comment for this that happened and say, Look, what kind of a person he is,see He killed it. People will blame the doer.No one will say anything to the _Gnayak._ Karma do not create or bind for the _Gnanyak._ The _Gnayak_ has nothing to do with this! Therfore, tell the one who has done it, to do _pratikraman._ Why did you do _atikraman_? So now do _pratikraman._

**Questioner** : At that time does _Gnayak_ have the differentation that violence was done or not?i

**Dadashri** : No. The word _himsa_ is not there at all. There is neither violence nor nonviolence. All the _Gnayak_ Knows is that a living being neither dies, nor can it killing anyone. It neither lives nor dies.

**Questioner** : So then why do _pratikraman_?

**Dadashri** : _Pratikraman_ is to be done by the one who did the _atikraman_. He is living a worldly life, so people will say, 'Is he sensless or what?' And You do not have to do _pratikraman_ , do You? He who does _atikraman_ , has to do the _pratikraman_. You (the Self) do not have to do _pratikraman_ at all. When one does not do _pratikraman_ , _parmanus_ leave without becoming clear. So then they will have to be cleared (the next time).

**Questioner** : When I am in _Gnayakbhaav_ , is any mistake seen in the _charitra_ (discharge) _moha_? There is noting like good or with mistake, in _charitra_ _moha_ is there?

**Dadashri** : There cannot be any fault in _Gnayakbhaav_. _Gnayaknhaav_ is the final _bhaav_ , final view. Then no matter what the body is doing, where there is _Gnayakbhaav_ there is no fault. Such (level of) awareness has to be there, no? _Gnayakbhaav_ is no child's play. Everything you see with your eyes cannot be called _Gnayakbhaav_. When the subtlest fault is Seen, then it is called _Gnayakbhaav_.

**Questioner** : What kind of fault is subtlest fault?

**Dadashri** : Subtlest fault, fault that people do not consider a fault, when that is Seen.

##  Gnayak Does not Have Association with Memory

**Questioner** : For the Knower, there is _gneya_ on one side, and on the other side of Knowing, there is a desire to listening to something more, what is that?

**Dadashri** : That is called _Gnayak_.

**Questioner** : Does _Gnayak_ not have many kinds of _gneya_?

**Dadashri** : _Gnayak_ has infinite _Gnan_ , so there are also infinite _gneyas_. What is _Gnayak_ nature like? It has infinite _Gnan_. Why is there infinite _Gnan_? It is because there are also infinite _gneyas_.

**Questioner** : Now _Gnayakbhaav_ is not associated with memory, it is not supported by anything.

**Dadashri** : It does not need any support.

**Questioner** : Yes, so then what is beyond that? What is beyond _Gnayak_?

**Dadashri** : Nothing. The Self is _Gnayak_ , The Self is the Knower, The Self indeed is everything, and the Self Knows the self because it is like a mirror. Whole world can be Seen within, no effort is necessary.

**Questioner** : Yes, that is Knowing ( _jaanpanu_ ).

**Dadashri** : _Gnayak_.

**Questioner** : _Gnayak_. But _Gnayak_ comes into that, what happens if One goes beyond _Gnayak_?

**Dadashri** ; There is nothing beyond. And _Gnayak_ is only for this imaginary interaction, otherwise he is not even a _Gnayak_. There is no word like that at all. You are still in _vyavahar_ (worldly interaction), and until you reach there, this is as Your share. When that part does not remain, then only the 'I' remains.

**Questioner** : Chandubhai is in association with the past memory. And the one who knows that this is associated with Chandubhai is that called Knowing ( _Gnayakpanu_ )?

**Dadashri** : What is the basement (foundation) of memory? It is _raag_ - _dwesh_ (attachment-abhorrence). He was looking through _raag_ - _dwesh_ until now; he had memory till then. Now the Self Sees the one who was seeing with _raag-dwesh._ The Self Sees that with _vitaragata_ (complete detachment).

**Questioner** : So is seeing with _vitaragata_ considered Knowing ( _Gnayakpanu_ )?

**Dadashri** : Yes that is _Gnayakpanu_?

**Questioner** : Now _vitaragata_ and _Gnayakpanu_. After that, is there nothing behind that on this side?

**Dadashri** : Nothing behind it on this side. There remains a final word. The Self, the 'I' is the final One. Then, there is nothing, the Self is the Self only. There is no other part or division in it, there is nothing.

**Questioner** : So can we say that if _Gnayak_ looks this way, it is _sansar_ (worldly life) and if He looks this way, it is a _Paramatma_?

**Dadashri** : No, _Gnayak_ does not see _sansar_ at all. It is the _dehadhyas_ (who has the belief 'I am Chandubhai') that can see the _sansar_. The one with memory, one with _raag_ - _dwesh_ , sees the world. _Gnayak_ only Sees situations of the _tattvas_ (six eternal elements); nothing about _sansar_.

**Questioner** : But do we not consider _Gnayak_ in relation to situation ( _avastha_ )?

**Dadashri** : Yes, He can Know only as many _gneya_ is Seen, there is no other memory, is there? He knows all the situations. Someone asked me, ' _Gnani_ does not see any of the _sansar_ , does he?' I asked him why? Can I see sun fallen down? No. I see it the same, I see it as you see it. But there is a difference in your seeing and My Seeing.

**Questioner** : You Know that Ambalal is seeing it.

**Dadashri** : Yes, Ambalal is seeing it. It is like your glasses are seeing it.

**Questioner** : Yes, that is correct.

**Dadashri** : It is correct the way you understood.

**Questioner** : So this Knowing ( _Gnayakpanu_ ) for one; is for everyone. One seeing Ambalal, can see the entire universe, right?

**Dadashri** : Yes, that is correct. He (the _Gnayak_ ) holds the energy to See the entire universe. But that has come into My Understanding, but not in My _Gnan_. Everything can be Seen when it comes into _Gnan_.

##  Through Gnayakbhaav Purity Happens

**Questioner** : We need such a light that, when any kind of question arises, and wherever the light falls, we get a solution.

**Dadashri** : Yes, that is the light 'we' have give You. And tell me which solutions did you not get, after having met me?

**Questioner** : The state I am in; suppose if there is absolute purity ( _vishuddhi_ ) in that internal state, then there is no question at all. But what should happen for it to result in absolute purity within, with which, imputity would leave? Thereafter, the resultant purity and the element that is the Self, become one.

**Dadashri** : When You 'See' the internal state will become pure for sure. If You 'See' there? If you maintain in your _Gnayak_ nature, then resulting impurity will become pure and leave. Your internal state will become pure and remain with You, and You will also become pure.

##  Constant Knowing is Indeed the Paramatma

When the Knowing nature of the Self does not go away, One becomes a _Paramatma_. Whenever bad thoughts are coming within, if the _Gnayak_ (Knower) remains at that time, then Know that _Paramatma_ state has happened to some extent. Constant Knower ( _Gnayakpanu_ ) is consideted absolute _Paramatma_. The nature of _Shuddhatma_ is _Gnayak_ , and what is the fruit of that? Absolute bliss!

*****

#  [5]

#  Absolute Through Naturalness of the Self and the non-Self

##  Cessation of Interference is Indeed Naturalness

**Questioner** : What is naturalness ( _sahajik_ ) according to you?

**Dadashri** : Naturalness means not to interfere in the any activity of the mind-speech-body that is happening. How much do you understand in this just one short sentence I said? Should I add another sentence to it if you do not understand that? Naturalness is destroyed when you interfere in any aactivity of mind-speech-body that is going on. Not to interfere is naturalness ( _sahajikata_ ). One becomes _sahaj_ (natural) when the awareness of 'I am Chandubhai' is destroyed.

**Questioner** : Now, the one who has come into the awareness of the Self, is all his _vyavahar_ (worldly interaction) natural?

**Dadashri** : When he comes into awareness of the Self, then He does not have anything to do with _vyavahar_ , does He? _Vyavahar_ continues on its own.

**Questioner** : So is his _vyavahar_ just what the unfolding karma is?

**Dadashri** : That is it; there is nothing else. One comes into the awareness of the Self when doership is gone. When doership is gone, then only unfolding of karma remain.

##  Dada's Interference to Remove Interference

_Sansar_ (worldly life) means the self ( _vyavahar_ _atma_ ; relative self) has entered into interfering ( _dakho_ , _dakhodakhal_ ). And what is the nature of the body? It is _sahaj_ (natural and spontaneous). If the worldly interacting self does not interfere, then the body is _sahaj_. The body is free, and so is the Self. One is bound through interference. That is why 'we' stop the interfering. 'We' help one realise, 'You are not this (Chandubhai), you are this (the Self)', and so he stops interfering. Ego and _mamata_ (my-ness) are gone. Now, as much interfering stop, you will become the Self by that much, natural and spontaneous. _Sahaj_ means no interfering. This (body; Chandubhai) runs on its on, and so does this (the Self). They both run in their own way.

The Self remains in its own nature, and this body remains in its nature. This is beacuse _dehadhyas_ (I am this body) goes away. _Dehadhyas_ that was the connection between the two, thus becoming one, that _dehadhyas_ is gone, so this body does its own work and the Self does its.

Interferring 'we' are doing now is to remove your interfering. Then some people will feel that Dada himself is doing the interfering. That means that he has not understood this. He is doing that to remove your interference. He is sitting peacefully having removed his own, and he is now removing yours. He does not scold you. He accomplishes all this by making you laugh as if you have made an agreement to do so. _Gnani_ _Purush_ stops your interfering and everything else, and takes you ahead in cheerful spirit.

##  The Self and Prakruti are Sahaj, Worldly Interacting self is Asahaj

**Questioner:** Please explain a little bit about the naturalness ( _sahajata_ ) of thoughts-speech-activity and the naturalness of the Self.

**Dadashri:** The Self is verily natural. After giving _Gnan_ , _Shuddhatma_ that comes in to your awareness ( _laksha_ ), it comes into awareness by itself. You do not have to recall. Whatever you have to recall, it is what you forget. This will remain constantly in Your awareness. Therefore, the Self has become a _sahaj_ _Atma_ (the natural Self). From there on as one follows the Agnas of the _Gnani_ _Purush_ the thoughts, speech and acts also become _sahaj_ (natural and spontaneous).

**Questioner** : You ask us to to settle (the files) with naturalness ( _sahaj_ _bhaav_ ), so what is the way to cultivate this natural intent?

**Dadashri:** What does _sahaj bhaav_ (natural intent) mean? After receiving this _Gnan_ You became _Shuddhatma_ (pure Soul), so You are indeed in the state of naturalness ( _sahaj_ ). One is in the natural state when the ego is absent. Absence of ego is _sahaj bhaav_ (natural intent).

You attained this _Gnan_ so your ego is absent. Now, You don't believe, 'I am Chandulal' which is what you used to believe. Do You believe that now? It is all over!

'I practiced law in court and set him free. I did that for him!' He will say, 'I went to thee toilet.' Oh ho ho! Why could you not go to the toilet yesterday? He will say, 'Yesterday I had to call the doctor because I was constipated'.

On the contrary _sakriyata_ (doership) increases. _Sakriyata_ is due to ego. Everything is spoilt due to egoism. Once the ego goes away everything becomes regular, One becomes natural and spontaneous. Ego ruins everything, it verily spoils that which is of the Self, and where there is naturalness, everything is so beautiful.

**Questioner** : Absolute naturalness and spontaneity of the body is God ( _Bhagwan_ ); not that of the self. When body becomes _sahaj_ , the self will become _sahaj_. When the self becomes _sahaj_ , the body will automatically become _sahaj_ , will it not? Are they both not mutual?

**Dadashri** : The Self is verily _sahaj_. 'Absolute _sahajata_ (naturalness and spontaneity) of the body is God', is correct. When complete _sahajta_ of the body is attained, one is God. If the body slaps with _sahaj_ _bhaav_ , even then he is God.

**Questioner** : Is _sahajta_ of the Self not considered God?

**Dadashri** : The Self is itself _sahaj_. If the external becomes _sahaj_ , then Self is _sahaj_. But the external does not become _sahaj_ , does it?

**Questioner** : I still do not quite understand this?

**Dadashri** : 'When the self becomes _sahaj_ , the body will automatically become _sahaj'_ , what does that mean? When this worldly interacting self ( _vyavahar_ _atma_ ) becomes _sahaj_ , the body will automatically become _sahaj_ , but the main ( _muda_ ) Self is verily _sahaj_. All this problem is of the worldly interacting self.

**Questioner** : You said, 'slap with _sahaj_ _bhaav_ (naturally), is it possible to slap with _sahaj_ _bhaav_?

**Dadashri** : Yes, it is.

**Questioner** : _Prasadi_ (special gift) that Dada gives everyone with his shoes...(Dadashri used to smack with his shoe, some _Mahatmas_ who wanted to receive the _prasadi,_ on their back, while they willingly offered themselves in obeisance. This was their desire to have him destroy the ego within.)

**Dadashri** : That is all with _sahaj_ _bhaav_. _Sahaj_ _bhaav_ means that one does not have the awareness ( _bhaan_ ), _gnan_ (knowledge) or _shraddha_ (conviction) of 'I am slapping'. So when 'we' hit with _sahaj_ _bhaav_ , does not feel hurt.

**Questioner** : Can anyone other than a _Gnani_ _Purush_ hit with _sahaj_ _bhaav_?

**Dadashri** : Yes, he can if he is in _sahaj_ _bhaav_ (nondoer state)

**Questioner** : If someone other than a _Gnani_ _Purush_ slaps someone, that person is bound to feel hurt.

**Dadashri** : That is not _sahajata_ if he feels hurt. There is some mixture in it, otherwise he should not feel hurt.

Everything of 'ours' is _sahaj_. So you have to reach the state of _sahajta_. This is a path of _sahajata_. No law law is to take one towards _sahajata_. How can _sahajata_ happen in the presence of law? The _asahaj_ (not natural) one would not sit the way I am sitting here right now. He would not touch the nuts that are being passed around for all here. All that is not _sahajata_. _Sahajik_ means to remain easy naturally. He does not think what other people will say, or things like that. Therefore, if you see the _sahajikata_ and all this here, then you will know that this person is like that.

**Questioner** : Is even the ego expression _sahajik_?

**Dadashri** : You will know it; ego is blind from the core, is it not? Wherever it goes, you will know it because it is blind. It will not refrain from colliding.

**Questioner** : Yes, then is it not _sahajik_ there?

**Dadashri** : No, where there is ego, it cannot be _sahajik_ , can it?

##  Full enlightenment halted because of ego

**Questioner:** Does ego always create obstacles or is it helpful at times?

**Dadashri:** In this world, without ego, even this talk cannot be put on paper. You cannot even write this note in the absence of the ego. There are two kinds of egos. One is discharge ( _madadaal_ ; lifeless) ego, which is like a top (a spinning toy). And the second is the charge (alive) ego, which is like a warrior; it will create dispute and fight; it will do everything. That poor discharging ego does not have anything in its hands; it just spins like a top. So nothing can happen in this world without the ego. But that ego is the discharging ego; it will not bother you. Without ego, no work can take place. You do have to say that, 'I returned from the toilet, I want to go to the toilet.' Only if the ego gives endorsement does work happen, otherwise it does not happen.

**Questioner** : Has everything become natural (sahaj) for you?

**Dadashri** : Still, in some rare situations, with the slightest touch the ego (residual discharging ego) dissolves, and then it (the non-Self) becomes natural ( _sahaj_ ). It is _sahaj_ , but even so there are rare instances where some faint blemishes remain. Until the absolute Knowledge ( _purna_ ), such blemishes will remain. That is why completion ( _purna_ ) is not attained, right? Other than those few spots (blemishes), how is the rest of it? Everything is _sahaj_. Even for You some of it starts to become _sahaj_ , but you have lot more of those blemishes. Therefore to you it all appears blurred and colored.

**Questioner:** Is that not what we call a painting ( _chitraman_ )?

**Dadashri:** One has not paid off those karmic accounts yet. The painting (effect) is result of the project (causes) created in the past life. Project! This (unnaturalness) does not apply to it once it comes in to effect, it does not matter anymore. Those who have not become natural are the ones with the spots (ego reaction); most have become _sahaj_. They remain natural.

**Questioner:** So for us if the whole ego was working normally at one place all the time, instead it may be working more or less and for you has it decreased a lot?

**Dadashri:** No not that way. For you there is a 'break-down' every five minutes or so, and then it (naturalness) starts increasing. As the naturalness ( _sahajta_ ) increases, that other (egoism) decreases. From the moment you are given the _Gnan_ , naturalness will continue to increase, and the other (the discharge ego) will decrease. And what will be the net result of that? What is the last station? The Self will remain in the natural state as the Self, and the body (non-Self complex) will remain in the natural state as the non-Self. That is the final station. Both in their own natural state.

**Questioner:** It is difficult to imagine such a state of naturalness.

**Dadashri:** Yes, that imagination cannot be an imagination, right! That cannot come into imagination, can it! The web of imagination, its circumference area would be this little, and that one (of the natural Self) is very huge area.

##  Awareness Increases by Asking for Energies

**Questioner** : What is the limit of _sahajata_ (naturalness and spontaneity)?

**Dadashri** : There is constant _sahajata_ only. _Sahajata_ will remain depending on how much _Agna_ one follows. _Agna_ is religion ( _dharma_ ) and _Agna_ is penance ( _tapa_ ), so that is the main thing. 'We' have said that _samadhi_ (absence of any effect from mental, physical or externally induced pain) will prevail when You follow the _Agnas_. _Samadhi_ will not leave you even when someone curses you or beats you up.

You should decide, right from the morning, that 'Dada give me energy to remain in your Agnas only.' Once You decide that, it will slowly increase.

**Questioner** : In the beginning, after we attain _Gnan_ , if we follow that and our inner intent ( _bhaav_ ) becomes stronger, we can follow the _Agnas_ more and more.

**Dadashri** : You will remain more and more in the _Agnas_. Ordinarily there is a fourteen-year course in our _Akram_ _Vignan_. Those who are very weak, they will take longer than that, and those who are sincere here, they can complete that within eleven years, as the sincere devotion increases. But it is a fourteen-year course. One becomes _sahaj_ after fourteen years. Even the mind-speech-body become _sahaj_.

If one recites, 'Give me the energy not to interfere', everyday in the _Charan Vidhi_ , it will help a lot. And if one does not know that he should not interfere, then interference will happen again and again, and then he will regret. What is that like? 'Let there be salvation ( _kalyan ho_ )', if you say this with such intent, it has an effect. And if you do not say it, then there will not be such an effect. So there will be negative outcome. Proper positive result will not come.

**Questioner** : After attaining the _Gnan_ , if my _prakruti_ is bad, should I do _purushartha_ (make an effort) to improve it, or should I do _Purushartha_ of keep Seeing it?

**Dadashri** : You are not to do any _purushartha_ to improve it. It is improving now, you just have to settle ( _nikaal_ ) it only. Sift as much as you can through the sieve (of _Gnan-_ 5 _Agnas_ ), and the rest that is not sifted, will have to be sifted later.

**Questioner** : Then what is the point of saying, 'not to interfere'?

**Dadashri** : When one says, 'not to interfere', then it will settle accordingly. He will not interfere then. And if he does not say that, then he will end up interfering.

**Questioner** : When I am 'Seeing' all the activity of the _pudgal_ , where does interfering come into it?

**Dadashri** : There is no interference ( _dakhodakhal_ ) there. When You are reading _Charan Vidhi_ in the morning and You say, 'Give me energy not to interfere', then that _Gnan_ will continue whole day. You will not interfere. Say if you tell someone, 'You are going there but do not go to see a movie from there', then that _gnan_ (knowledge) will stay with him, and so he will come back without seeing a movie. But if you do not say that, he will go and see a movie too. So from that You can tell what will become the _nimit_ (instrumental) in it. You will Know what the _nimit_ will be, from what he says in the discharge. I am telling you a very subtle thing!

##  Retract the Interference

**Questioner** : A cricket match is going to start in Bombay and a couple of people from here are going there to watch it. I told one of them, 'You don't go to do Dada's _darshan_ in the morning, and you tell me that your partner gets upset with you. So then how is he going to let you go for five days? Will he not get upset with you?' So what I said to him, is that interference ( _dakhodakhal_ )?

**Dadashri** : This is what 'we' would say. 'Brother, what all are you going see?' He will say, 'I am going to Mumbai to watch a match'. So then 'we' will ask, 'Can you not do without that?' if he says, 'No I have to go', then 'we' would tell him, 'That is fine'. You will not be able to stop him even if you try. Say this much and retract your words.

**Questioner** : Is, what I said, considered interfering?

**Dadashri** : No. If you do not retract those words, then interference happens. Otherwise, he too will say, 'Chandubhai keeps nagging me for no reason!' So you should tell him but then retract your words, saying everything is fine. 'We' say this, but then 'we' also retract our words. 'We' ought not to tell you this.

When you do not retract your words like this; that indeed is interfering. When _dakho –_ interference happens, then _dakhal –_ effect of interference, happens. You may tell him but his _prakruti_ will not leave him alone, will it? He may say no to himself within; he may have made all the contracts (prior decisions not to go) but even then he will break the contract and go. This is because he is bound by his _prakruti._ It is discharge karma.

So do not make any cautionary suggestions ( _takor_ ) to anyone. Just tell them, 'Come for _satsang'_. Speak positively; do not speak negatively. Negative will create interference everywhere. When you tell him, he will say, 'You are telling me no, but I have to go', then recognize that this is the effect ( _dakho_ ) of the interfering ( _dakhal_ ) you did. That does not happen to 'us'. 'We' immediately retract our words. We Know that in whatever is meant to happen, he does not have a say in it and neither do 'we'. So why interfere unnecessarily?

**Questioner** : So what we say in the morning when doing _Charan Vidhi_ , does it help in this? Does it stop us from cautioning the other person?

**Dadashri** : It is helpful if you understand this.

##  Filled Stock Will Discharge Without Fail

**Questioner:** Why can't we refrain from creating interference ( _dakho_ ) and its consequences ( _dakhal_ ) in this worldly life ( _sansar_ )?

**Dadashri:** That is a practice. You have to stop this practice and affirm that from now on, there will be no _dakho-dakhal_ whatsoever. If You keep turning this 'key', then it will stop once whatever stock there is within, discharges.

**Questioner:** This is because if we want to become _sahaj_ and continue to remain as the Seer, then there is absolutely no place for _dakhodakhal_.

**Dadashri:** The stock of the past will not refrain from discharging, if You simply 'See' it; then You are _sahaj._ When the other (the _prakruti_ ) becomes _sahaj_ , then both will have become _sahaj_ , and then there will be closure. But for now, it is good enough if even one of two became _sahaj_. That which was filled will not remain without expressing, will it? The filled stock will keep coming out even if you don't like it.

**Questioner** : Old habits and one's nature that have been formed, that is the _prakruti_. You create separation between the Self and the _prakruti_ when you give us the _Gnan_. So if one remains in _Shuddhatma_ (the Self), in his natural state, then even the _prakruti_ will become natural with it, will it not?

**Dadashri** ; The Self verily is _sahaj_ (natural). However much You have become _sahaj_ , the _prakruti_ is indeed considered to have become _sahaj_.

**Questioner** : Now, when his _prakruti_ does not remain _sahaj_ , then He is to 'Know' and 'See' it.

**Dadashri** : Yes, there is that much weakness, it takes longer to settle that many files. That much awakened awareness ( _jagruti_ ) has not arisen yet. _Jagruti_ is weak. _Jagruti_ is needed every moment.

##  That is When the Visa for Moksha is There

**Questioner** : When is the state of _moksha_ considered attained?

**Dadashri** : Even when you curse someone, You ( _Mahatma_ ) are in _moksha_ , and even when someone else (non- _Mahatma_ ) does not curse at all, he is not in _moksha_. How can people understand this? _Sahaj_ (natural) state of the Self, and natural state of the body; that is _moksha_. Natural state of the body means that, even when you forcibly push someone, I will know that the Self is not doing that. 'You' are not doing it. You would Know that You are not doing that, would You not? Even if you do not desire it, it happens; this You have to See – that is the natural state of the body. To interfere in that, causes the natural state to disappear.

**Questioner** : How long does such natural state of the Self remain, once attained?

**Dadashri** : It lasts forever. It is considered _moksha_ only if it is everlasting, is it not? _Moksha_ should be attained here, in this very life. Fifteen thousand people here have attained _moksha_ for sure, and the others are in the process of becoming ready for it. For many it is a given state and many are coming into it. First and foremost, worries must go.

**Questioner** : Will our number come up or not?

**Dadashri** : If it is your desire, then it will and it is not your desire, then it will not. Up until now you did have that desire, so you have not attained it. If you desire it, then it will happen. All these people's number came up, so why will yours not come up? It is because you had not realized what this is. How is one to understand this, in this world? This is something beyond this world ( _alaukik_ ) that manifests once in a million years. With _Akram Vignan_ men and women can enjoy _moksha_ while living the worldly life. Look, have 'we' not given you all the freedom in the worldly life? This manifests once in a million years, and 'I' became just a _nimit._ You have to get all your work accomplished.

##  Obstructions Leave by Seeing

**Questioner** : To attain _moksha_ is natural. In this naturalness, to stop whatever obstructions arise, is _purushartha._ Please explain what these obstructions are.

**Dadashri** : Those are the impediments and interferences of the previous life.

**Questioner** : Yes. But Dada, which ones are they?

**Dadashri** : All these interferences that arise now, You become aware of them, don't You? If bitter fruits come, then Know that you had hurt someone. If sweet ones come, then Know that you had given happiness to someone. You would be able to recognize this, would You not?

**Questioner** : So then to ward off, to prevent and remove all these impediments that arise in this life, is there _purushartha_ in that?

**Dadashri** : Yes. But that _Purushartha_ is of only that of 'Seeing', You just have to 'See' these impediments. You do not have to do anything else. To eliminate them, you need the eliminator (doer) again. It is an offense to push circumstances away. Circumstances by nature are prone to dissociate (go away), and to push them away is an offense. That is why You just have to continue Seeing.

**Questioner** : But Dada, is it true that there is nothing to be 'done' in the effort ( _purushartha_ ) in attaining _moksha_?

**Dadashri** : It ( _moksha_ ) is a natural thing.

**Questioner** : So is that our (of the Self) nature ( _swabhav_ )?

**Dadashri** : It is the nature of the Self (Soul; _Atma_ ). Just like the water of the Mississippi River, it simply flows three thousand miles and naturally ends up finding the ocean. That is its nature; it is natural for it.

**Questioner** : So, I have to make an effort to come in to that _swabhav_ , don't I?

**Dadashri** : Can you come into the natural state of the Self ( _swabhaav_ ) if you make an effort of going against the Self ( _vibhaavik purushartha_ )? Is it possible for a mad person to become wise through _purushartha_? That is why one has to surrender to a wise man, and ask him to grace you.

**Questioner** : No. Dada, you are saying that _moksha_ can be attained in two hours, provided there are no obstacles in meeting a _Gnani_.

**Dadashri** : Yes. But that impediment does not go away does it? The obstacles have been created, haven't they been?

**Questioner** : Yes. But you said that we have to, 'Just See that as the Knower and the Seer.'

**Dadashri** : That is the only solution. The obstruction unfolds as a circumstance and by its nature it will dissociate—leave. The release and freedom from it, is only through Seeing it as it is.

**Questioner** : But Dada, how many lives will it take for that? Meaning all this is a discharge, is that right?

**Dadashri:** It is only settling ( _nikali_ ) indeed. People have created confusion because they do not understand. Just understand that it is _nikali_ (settling, discharging)! If it is made to be something that has to be acquired ( _grahaniya_ ), then it will stick to you. If you renounce it, then the ego will stick to you. A person who renounces is indeed an egoist and the fruit of the renunciation will come later. People do say, ' _tyaage iskoo aage_ —That which is renounced, will have to be suffered later.' They say, 'If you want to enjoy the pleasures of a life in the celestial world ( _devgati_ ), then give up your desire to enjoy a woman here'. So here we want neither renunciation ( _tyaga_ ) nor acquisition ( _grahan_ ); we need settlement ( _nikal_ ) – settle whatever unfolds.

All circumstances are such that they dissipate ( _viyogi_ ) by nature. And circumstances have arisen because of our interferences (in the past life). Had the interfercences not been caused in the past life, the circumstances would not have arisen. Up until the point of attaining _Gnan_ , the interferences were constantly being created and you were walking around with arrogance believing that 'I am following God's religion!'

**Questioner:** Once one moves from circumstance to naturalness ( _sahaj_ ), it (interference) goes away, thereafter he remains in _sahaj_ , correct?

**Dadashri:** When one remains _sahaj_ (natural), then the circumstance leaves. Once one goes into naturalness (the Self), the circumstance departs. One can go from a circumstance into _sahaj_. After going into _sahaj,_ the circumstance leaves (falls off).

**Questioner:** Does the circumstance also go into naturalness?

**Dadashri:** No, One goes in naturalness from the circumstances. Circumstance cannot become natural, can it? Naturalness is a different thing and circumstance is a different thing.

##  Naturalness Exists Where There is no Attachment-Abhorrence

**Questioner:** Now after attaining _Gnan_ , the Self reverts to its nature only, right?

**Dadashri:** And the _pudgal_ (non-Self complex) comes into its own nature. It comes within its own regulation, because the one who was interfering is gone. _Pudgal_ is always in regulation if there is no one to interfere. If you put charcoal etc. and everything else in this engine, it will run fine even if there is no driver. Now if there is a driver (ego) sitting within to interfere, he will stop the train, and later start it again. If there is no interference in the _pudgal_ , then it will continue to become clear on its own. But this one (discharge ego) interferes and creates a problem. Who does all this interfering? It is the wrong beliefs arising from ignorance followed by obstructive oppositions and mistakes!

**Questioner:** If the body becomes natural, can we say that one's _dehadhyas_ (I am this body) is gone?

**Dadashri** : If your pocket gets picked and You are not affected, then the _dehadhyas_ is gone. When anyone causes any problems for the body, You should 'See' that. If you are affected, then that is _dehadhyas_. 'Why did he do that to me?' is _dehadhyuas_.

**Questioner:** When can we say that the _deha_ (body) has become natural ( _sahaj_ )?

**Dadashri:** When anybody does anything to this body, it does not result in _raag_ - _dwesh_ (attachment-abhorrence); that is called _sahaj_. Learn by seeing 'us'. No matter what one does to 'us', it does not create any _raag_ - _dwesh_ in 'us'. _Sahaj_ is what is said in the language of the _Gnani_. _Dehadhyas_ goes away when the body becomes _sahaj_. _Sahaj_ (natural) means _swabhavik_ (natural). It is naturally in its own nature. There is no _vibhavik_ _dasha_ ('I am this body'). There is no awareness of 'I am' in it.

**Questioner:** You just mentioned the naturalness of the body, but when will I become natural ( _sahaj_ )?

**Dadashri** : The _Gnan_ that You attain results in _bhaan_ (exact awareness); it will decrease all the karma.Thus You start to become natural and spontaneous. One is becoming _sahaj_ , but he is doing so fraction at a time. Fraction by fraction he will become completely _sahaj_. One moves towards naturalness as _dehadhyas_ is destroyed. So now he is becoming natural ( _sahaj_ ). To whatever degree one becomes natural, that much _samadhi_ arises.

All day long 'we' are natural and spontaneous. This is because 'we' are not the owner of this body even for a moment, not the owner of the speech and not the owner of the mind. The ownership of this body left twenty-six years ago. The bliss of the Self ( _samadhi_ ) has remained uninterrupted for the past twenty-six years and has not left even for a second. This _samadhi_ remains even if someone were to slap 'us'. We would bless that person.

##  Should one get rid of Interference or Remain Separate?

**Questioner** : How do I know that this is a _dakhal_ (interference)?

**Dadashri** : You will Know all that, if you 'See' it with impartial view ( _tatashtha bhaav_ ). The Self is a thermometer. It will measure whatever you want to.

**Questioner** : That interference is of the self, and this _prakruti_ which is in its own nature - how can one know between the two? _Prakruti_ eats only two bowls of ice-cream as per its nature, so where is one's interference in this?

**Dadashri** : Interference ( _dakhal_ ) makes it eat more, and what else does it do? 'It is not worth eating. It is cold. It will cause sore throat', that is _dakhal_ also. To let it not eat or to let it eat excessive; both are interference.

**Questioner** : How can we maintain that level?

**Dadashri** : The level is maintained on its own if you do not interfere.

**Questioner** : Whatever it is, it runs on its own, and there is always some kind of interference on our part, in it.

**Dadashri** : All this is only _dakho_ (interference). The less it becomes, the better it is. _Dakho_ of movies has decreased; the _dakho_ of him not eating at night has decreased. He does not go out to eat in restaurants – that _dakho_ has decreased; so many interferences have decreased!

**Questioner** : But there are still a lot, are there not? They are still there; many interferences are there! What about so many _dakhas_ that are there all day long that are not recognizable?

**Dadashri** : Everything can be recognized. When you do it, you will know at that moment that _dakho_ is happening. How long does it take for a thermometer to show you how much fever you have?

**Questioner** : I recognize that a _dakho_ has happened, but it does not go away, does it?

**Dadashri** : You are not to get rid of it; You are to remain separate from it. _Dakho_ will stop within if You remain separate. You will be able to remain as the Self ( _swabhaav_ ). A guest will not go into your kitchen. How good a guest is that guest considered to be; but what if he goes in your kitchen and starts stirring the _kadhee_ – soup (interfere)? Similarly, this 'guest' goes everywhere and does _dakho_ (interferes). That is what this 'guest' does.

**Questioner** : You said that the thermometer shows everything, who is that?

**Dadashri** : It is the same _pragnya_ that cautions You all the way until final _moksha_.

**Questioner** : _Pragnashakti_ (liberating energy of the Self) keeps doing its work of showing 'him' (the awakened One) everything, is that what 'I' (discharging ego) interfere in?

**Dadashri** : You do _dakho_ in it. When you do _dakho_ even when it is cautioning You, then it will last for a long time.

Who does it caution? It cautions the one doing (ego) the _dakho_ , 'Why are you doing this? What benefit do you get out of that?' Nevertheless one keeps on doing it. _Pragnashakti's_ nature is such that it will not refrain from cautioning.

**Questioner** : What does God do at that time?

**Dadashri** : God is _udaseen_ (detached; indifferent), _vitarag_.

##  Interference Removes Interference

**Questioner** : After a _dakho_ happens, I have made a firm decision ( _nischaya_ ) that I do not want to do any _dakho_ (interference); is that considerd a new _dakho_?

**Dadashri** : It is a _dakho_ (interference), but it removes that other _dakho_ , does it not? This _dakho_ happens by removing the other _dakho_. This is a better _dakho_.

**Questioner** : _Dakho_ removes _dakho_. But then this _dakho_ remains. Does it not?

**Dadashri** : That other _dakho_ leaves on its own. Then You do not have to remove it. Tell it to leave and it will tell you that it will. That is all. You do not have to get rid of it. Did you think that you will have to get rid of it?

It is a _dakho_ , but it will leave on its own. If you say to it, 'your work is done now, so go away', then it will leave. Those other _dakhas_ will not leave. Those interferences will go way with this interference (decision not to interfere).

The path to _moksha_ is very difficult. Even an inch of progress in it, is considered very valuable. Anyone who said that the Self is separate was considered to be a great scientist. He recognizes that it is separate, but nothing more. And You ( _Mahatmas_ ) have gone beyond that.

If Chandubhai is sitting down to eat ice-cream; he would eat two bowls and get up if you do not interfere. But you do _dakho_ by saying, 'it is a nice ice-cream, why don't you eat three or four more servings ?'

**Questioner** : So 'one' does the _dakho._

**Dadashri** : Yes. Now _pragnya_ cautions him there, 'Hey, why are you doing this?'

**Questioner** : 'Have three or four more servings!' – who is telling him to do that?

**Dadashri** : That itself! Your _charitramoha_ (discharging illusory karma). _Charitramoha_ can also be dissolved! If You 'See', if You remain Knower-Seer, then it will go away. And if you do not maintain awareness, and you do not make a firm decision ( _nischaya_ ), then _charitramoha_ will remain pending.

**Questioner** : When _pragnashakti_ shows me, it is possible to remove it, meaning it is possible to stop that _dakhal_.

**Dadashri** : That is correct.

**Questioner** : So is there _dakhodakhal_ in speech also?

**Dadashri** : Yes, there is. There is _dakhodakhal_ (inteferrence and its consequence) in everything, is there not? There is _dakho-dakhal_ even in one's conduct. 'Come on, I am in a hurry' – one becomes restless – as if the train is going to leave. Not so, there is still time, but he keeps doing _dakho-dakhal_ everywhere.

##  Knowing-Seeing Stops Interference

**Questioner** : Show us a solution to stop _dakhao-dakhal_ (interference-interference reaction), Dada.

**Dadashri** : Become the Knower-Seer and _dakho-dakhal_ will stop. Your nature is that of the Knower-Seer. When _charitramoha_ comes, Know that 'this is a _charitramoha_ (illusory attachment in discharge karma)' You should Know and See it. It will go away if you See it.

**Questioner** : The one who is the Knower-Seer is the same one that does the interfering ( _dakhal_ ).

**Dadashri** : How can the Knower-Seer do that? He actually 'Sees' and 'Knows' the one doing the _dakhal_ , that 'he is doing _dakhal_.' The discharge ego is doing the _dakhal_.

**Questioner** : Does the _buddhi_ (intellect) do _dakho_?

**Dadashri** : _Buddhi_ does _dakho_ ; everyone does _dakho_. The ego, intellect, chit and mind, they all do _dakhals_ , do they not? But the main culprit is the ego. This is because it is the one doing the endorsement.

**Questioner** : Is the mind's nature to think and then move on?

**Dadashri** : No, it may not move on either. It will let go after it interferes.

**Questioner** : So it is not as forceful as that ego, is it? So the mind is not as forceful as the one endorsing it (ego), is it?

**Dadashri** : It is. A great deal! If the mind becomes obstinate about something, it will bring in the dawn. So none of them (ego or mind) are straightforward. Therefore, the self will have to become straightforward. They were straightforward to begin with, but we had ruined them. So, if we become straightforward, they will improve.

**Questioner** : So in this, I can become aware-warned only to the extent _pragnyashakti_ cautions me, isn't that so?

**Dadashri** : _Pragnya_ is ready to caution You about everything. When it cautions You and You don't listen to it, then it will stop.

**Questioner** : Suppose I listen to everything, will it caution me about everything?

**Dadashri** : The exact awareness ( _bhaan_ ) of everything will happen. Yes, it cautions about everything. If You become sincere to it, it will caution You about everything. It wants to take You to _moksha_ by whatever means it can. So if everything is happening according to its ( _pragnya_ ) desire, according to its intent, then it is ever ready.

##  Who is the 'I'?

**Questioner** : 'I have a habit of doing _dakho_ ', who is the 'I' in all this?

**Dadashri** : You are still that, you are you in two ways now. From the worldly interaction ( _vyavahar_ ) viewpoint, you are on this side but really You are on the other side ( _nischaya_ , the Self). However much You 'See', You are that much free. That much of it is gone. Whatever You have not 'Seen', that much still remains as _vyavahar_ , does it not?

**Questioner** : Yes, it remains.

**Dadashri** : You say that, 'I love _jalebi_ very much'. This _jalebi_ came to you (as a karma discharge) so that You can become free from it, but when you say 'I love it', you did _dakho._

**Questioner** : But does 'I' mean the body?

**Dadashri** : No, it means egoism, _ahamkar._

##  Oneness Believed by the ego

**Questioner** : Does that mean that _asahaj_ (unnatural non-Self complex) binds the _sahaj_ (natural, the Self here)?

**Dadashri** : As long as the belief of oneness exists.

**Questioner:** Who has beleived this oneness?

**Dadashri:** The ego has.

**Questioner** : How can one undestand this, as long as he has not attaine _bheda vignan_ (the science of separation)?

**Dadashri** : One will not understand at all! As long as the ego exists, how can one say, 'it happens'? As long as the ego is still alive, there is no telling what kind of madness will arise in it. And in Your case, after attaining _Gnan_ , a certain portion of the ego goes away, the ego that used to create interferences, the ego that used to create new causes; that part goes away and the ego of 'it happens' (discharge ego) remains. That is why You are able to undestand.

**Questioner** : The ego to perform the function of discharge, to settle the karma; that ego remains.

**Dadashri** : The ego has to be in 'it happens', that discharge ego remains.

##  That is When it is Called Natural

After the discharge ego ends, all activity of the body is considered natural ( _sahaj_ ), completely natural. At that time, the Self is natural and the body is also in its natural state. Both are separate and both are in natural state.

When this discharge ego is finished completely, then naturalness comes. This happens with natural ease. Just as you do not have to do anything to feel hungry, likewise this happens naturally.

**Questioner** : Is any karma bound during the natural activity that are happening?

**Dadashri** : Not at all! Even during this discharge (of your karma) You are not binding karma. Discharge ego is not able to bind karma. This ego exists to make You free from karma. It is to release the one who has been bound. Those who are bound need someone who can release them, don't they? So this ego is to set You free.

##  When is it a Pure Worldly Interaction?

Now the purity in _vyavahar_ (worldly interaction) is when You – the Self - do not become the body mind form ( _tanmayakar_ ); when You do not stick to anything, it may 'touch' you, but You will not stick to it, that is when it is considered pure. Otherwise causes for it ( _vyavahar_ ) to become pure will arise. It will become pure after a while. Pure means natural worldly interactions - ( _sahaj_ _vyavahar_ ). The one, whose relative worldly interactions are natural, is also in the natural state as the Self. Natural state of the Self ( _sahajatma swarupa_ ) means the one whose _vyavahar_ is natural and spontaneous (without any ego). Such a Soul is called _sahaj_ _Atma_. The meaning of this, is a little weak in the _kramik_ path, because in that path, the _Gnanis_ are _sahaj_ only in those places where they have become _sahaj_ (they become so step by step), elsewhere they are not. The rest remains _asahaj_ , does it not? And in the _Akram_ path one simply becomes _sahaj_ indeed.

' _Atmagnan sarad-sidhoo sahaj thhaye chhakey nahi.'_ This Knowledge of the Self has been given to You in easy and direct way. When it becomes natural ( _sahaj_ ) then there will no intoxication of the (discharge) ego. ' _Atmagnan sarad-sidhoo sahaj thhaye chhakey nahi.'_ There is no intoxication with it. Do people not say, 'look he is intoxicated with his sense of I know something? Look, he knows just a little and for no reason it has gone to his head'. When the _Gnan_ happens naturally, when true _Gnan_ happens, then no intoxication arises. The one who does not know, he will show a lot of ego-based reactions.

##  Naturalness is Where There is no Interference

The Self is indeed natural; by its nature it is _sahaj._ The body complex has to be made natural and spontaneous. So do not interfere in the effect of the body complex. _Sahaj_ (naturalness) means not to interfere in any way in the effect of the body complex. One moves along with the flow of the resultant effects. To interfere is the illusion. The one who interferes believes that, 'I am doing something.' 'I am doing something,' – that is the illusion.

As long as complete readiness in not attained in worldly interaction ( _vyavahar_ ), until then; the absolute Self is not attained. Therefore, _sahajatma_ _swarupa_ (the natural state of the Self) in worldly interaction means complete lack of interference with anyone or anything. Interferences such as 'It should be done this way, and not this way' simply do not exist. Nothing interferes with the other. The individual work of each (the Self and the non-Self) simply goes on. The _Gnatapurush_ (the Knower) constantly Knows what the _kartapurush_ (the doer) is doing. Both remain in their individual 'work.'

Look at the wonder, what a wonder! This is the greatest wonder of the past million years. So many people have been liberated.

Everything is incomplete as long as one says, 'I have to do this and I am not to do this, I have to renounce this.' The one who renounces is an egoist. The one who says, 'I can't do this', or 'I can do this' is egoistic. This is nothing but ego. So, this (the Self) has expressed fully within You; so all activity (kriya), of the Self and of the worldly interaction, is possible. Both remain within the realm of their own activity, while remaining completely vitarag (absolutely without attachment or abhorrence). Such is the Akram Vignan!

##  Body by Nature is Effective

It is necessary to maintain _vitaragata_ (absolutely without any attachment or abhorrence) in the _paraparinam_ (effect of the non-Self) that is in the form of discharge. There is no other solution. Lord Mahavir remained _vitarag_ (unaffected and absolutely separate) when they stuck spikes in his ears and the Lord remained _vitarag_ when they pulled them out from his ears. Whatever happened to the physical body, he might have screamed, but people misconstrued this. But a _Gnani_ 's body will always scream, cry and show all reactions. If _Gnani_ 's body becomes steadfast like this, then he is not a _Gnani_.

**Questioner** : People believe that a _Gnani_ would not be affected if someone were to say or do anything to him; he would not react.

**Dadashri** : People have worldly knowledge ( _laukik gnan_ ). These people have not gone outside of the _laukik_. People will call one a _Gnani_ , if he remains unmoved if he is burning. But you can immediately recognize the _Gnani_ just by observing him. A _Gnani_ would react immediately. The _Gnani_ will react and _aGnani_ (non Self-realized person) would remain still, because he has decided (via ego), 'I do not want to move at all.' The _Gnani_ is completely free from ego, and therefore he would be _sahaj_ (natural and spontaneous).

Natural and spontaneous means, restlessness and stillness occur as per the nature of the physical body. Restlessness-stillness of the body is natural for the body, where there is no _parparinam_ (effect of the non-Self), that Self is natural. Natural Self means the state of the Self. The physical body would become restless, that is its nature. When you throw a burning matchstick on the ground, you will notice that the end part of the stick starts to lift and curl upwards. Why is that? This is the natural effect. All the effects of the physical body change. They will not change for the _aGnani_ , because he has the ego that has resolved to remain steadfast. The _Gnani_ is free from the ego so eyes will tear up, everything will happen.

**Questioner** : When _Gnani's_ _prakruti_ is shedding tears, is He still as the Self?

**Dadashri** : That is right.

**Questioner** : Does he (the _Gnani_ ) not control the _prakruti_ (non-Self complex)?

**Dadashri** : _Prakruti_ remains in its own nature. You don't need to control it. If You come into Your _sahaj_ (natural and spontaneous) state, then this ( _prakruti_ ) is in its own natural and spontaneous state. Now if I have to walk across this marble floor on this hot day without any shoes, I would complain, 'Hey, I got burnt, I got burnt, I got burnt', that is a _Gnani_. That is the natural reaction of the _Gnani_. Otherwise if he suppreses his reaction and doesn't utter a sound, then know that the mortal man is an _aGnani_! He will make sure of this appearance, and keep it that way. He will maintain the externa;l appearance of composure.What does _sahaj_ (natural spontaneousness) mean? It means to say as it is!

The physical body of the fully enlightened One ( _kevalGnani_ ) is _sahaj_. It will run if running is called for, cry if it is time to cry and laugh at the time of laughing.

People ask, 'Why did Lord Mahavir break down and cry when they pulled out the wooden spikes from his ears? Hey you! He broke down in tears, what is it to you? He will cry! He is a _Tirthankara_. A _Tirthankara_ is not like an egoistic person, who he will keep his eyes like this (stop from shedding tears), and everything along that line. He will harden up, if he is egoistic.

The tears the Lord shed when they drove the spikes in his ears were tears of compassion; and when they pulled them out, the tears were from the pain. The Self does not shed tears. The body does. I told them, if one does not shed tears, then realize that the person has become crazy or the _mooah_ (mortal) is egoistical. All activity would be natural. All bodily functions of a _Gnani_ are natural and spontaneous.

All this talk is way beyond the worldly knowledge. So this will not fit easily, will it? This is beyond worldly comprehension ( _alaukik_ ).

##  Natural Means Effort-free State

Naturalness is where there is no _purushartha_ (effort) involved. When a thief steals, it is considered a natural activity – _sahajik kriya_..

**Questioner** : There is inner _purushartha_ (effort) that is going on within the thief while stealing, so then that result is not called natural, is it?

**Dadashri** : No, even then it is called natural. If the thief quits stealing, that is called _purushartha_. To sneeze is not _sahajik_ ; it is reflex reaction.

**Questioner** : Please explain that some more.

**Dadashri** : _Sahajik_ means to proceed as guided by the mind. One does not have to think anything. One does not have to exert any effort; there is no _purushartha_. _Sahajik –_ naturalness, is to let the cart go in whatever direction it is going. _Sahajik_ (natural) means effort free, it happens by itself.

**Questioner** : To do as the mind tells us is _sahajik_. So is this the kind of naturalness that is present in the ignorant, the not Self-realized, state?

**Dadashri:** Yes, that is called natural and spontaneous. In such a natural state there is no inner one to do the _purushartha_ , there are only 'tops' (spinning tops, unwinding in this life as wound in the previous life). And natural and spontaneous ( _sahajik_ ) after attaining _Gnan_ , is called _Paramatma_ (the absolute Self).

##  Cause-Effect go Away Where Where is Naturalness

_Sahajta_ (naturalness) means, if the wind blows a leaf this way, it will fly this way. And if the wind blows it the other way, the leaf blows that way. There is nothing of its own; there is no 'I-ness' ( _potapanu_ ) whatsoever!

**Questioner** : So in short, the karma that is egoless is natural indeed, is that it?

**Dadashri** : Yes, that itself is _sahaj_.

**Questioner** : Then what is _sahaj_ (natural and spontaneous) conduct?

**Dadashri** : _Sahaj_ conduct means that the illusory part is gone. What remains when the illusory part is gone? What remain is _sahaj_.

**Questioner** : Then ' _sahaj'_ does not bind karma, does it?

**Dadashri** : After that it will not bind karma at all, will it?

**Questioner** : So that thing becomes pure, does it not?

**Dadashri** : Yes, pure! There after there is no cause-effect.

**Questioner** : Is it the same for _sahajta_?

**Dadashri** : Yes, that is it. He (one who is _sahaj_ ) does not have cause-effect. Cause-effect arise when _sahajta_ is absent. After attaining _Gnan_ , even You are _sahaj_ in charge, and _asahaj_ in discharge. This is because you become _asahaj_ in the effect of the past causes.

**Questioner** : So _asahaj_ (unnatural) in the effect, and _sahaj_ (natural) in the causes.

**Dadashri** : Yes, that is.

**Questioner** : But is everyone _sahaj_ in the causes?

**Dadashri** : No, only those who have taken the _Gnan_ , our _Mahatmas_ are _sahaj_ in the causes.

**Questioner** : But amongst them too, only those who remain in five _Agnas_ are _sahaj_ , is that correct?

**Dadashri** : Yes, only they, not others.

Natural Samadhi

**Questioner** : Can an individual remain in the state of natural _samadhi_ (blissful state, unaffected by external or internal problems)?

**Dadashri** : Only a very rare One can be so. The One who can remain in the natural _samadhi_ , is considered God.

**Questioner** : Is that not indeed the ultimate goal of a human being?

**Dadashri** : The ultimate goal is to get rid of one's own wrong beliefs; that is the ultimate goal. It has become unnatural ( _asahaj_ ) because of the wrong beliefs. If the wrong beliefs go away, then one is _sahaj_ indeed.

##  There is no Knowledge of the Self, Where There is 'Doing'

A little while ago, someone was saying, 'Do, do', was he not? He is saying 'do' for the Self or _Atmagnan_ – Knowledge of the Self!

So he says 'do', but he will never in a million years attain _Atmagnan_. _Atmagnan_ is natural ( _sahaj_ ); it is a natural state that arises. So ' _sajah_ ' and 'do' both have enmity from the beginning. Is there enmity or not?

A natural state ( _sahaj avastha_ ) cannot be acquired by 'doing'. For that the _Gnani_ has to bestow his grace, then one becomes natural and the work gets done. Those who say 'do this' or 'do that'; they are making one go against the natural state. It verily is the state of binding karma in this world. On the contrary it binds even more karma. To 'do' anything in the worldly life is contrary to the nature of the Self ( _Atmaswabhaav_ ), such a person is an opponent of the Self. Now, the doer becomes happy from within that 'I did this' 'I did that'; what he did is invite the eternal problem of wandering.

So one should understand with discretion ( _vivek_ ). 'One should wake up early' – if possible, it should be around four or four-thirty in the morning. Thereafter, with understanding, whatever happens is correct. Have the _nischaya_ (firm decision), however whatever happens, is correct. Then one should not become adamant and insistent; one should not come under strain. The path of the _Vitarag_ Lords is not one of stress and strain.

There is only the two: one is either natural or one is straining. I have seen people straining. Have you not seen anyone straining?

One is either _sahaj_ , or he is straining. Those whom you have met, they are all straining. Let go of this, why don't you! Can it be like this for _moksha_?

**Questioner** : If he becomes insistent about something, we can understand that he is straining.

**Dadashri** : Yes. The Self is somewhere else, and just see this marriage party withouth the groom! The groom has not even arrived and the wedding party is has started dinning.

_Gnan_ is such that it will make people natural and spontaneous ( _sahajik_ ). In the scriptures thay tell you to 'do this', 'do that', 'do penance', 'do chanting', and all kinds of things. There are sermons on only 'doing'. No one has shown the path for becoming natural. If one were to sit here, would he become natural or not? So you have to become natural. When one becomes _sahaj_ , One becomes a _Paramatma –_ the absolute Self. It is called _sahaj atma swarupa –_ natural state of the Self. So you only have to become _sahaj_.

##  Effort Pushes Sahajta Away

**Questioner** : All the efforts one makes to cultivate _chit prasannata_ (high state of chit); that is not considered _sahajik_. Is it?

**Dadashri** : No. Those efforts are considered relative. Relative means that there is effort involved for sure, and the real is _sahaj_. If you want to see _sahaj_ , then it is what I have, and that other is relative. There ( _chit_ states) one has to set it up, through many beatings via imagination—it is 'cultured'. I am saying this because people like 'cultured'.

**Questioner** : Reagarding this energy of vision ( _darshan shakti_ ), if one makes an effort to attain this vision, does it become veiled?

**Dadashri** : Mere effort will make everything wrong. It should be effortless; it should be _sahaj_ (natural and spontaneous). When effort is involved, it ceases to be _sahaj_. _Sahajta_ (naturalness and spontaneity) goes away.

**Questioner** : Everywhere, they show us some kind of efforts. There the energy of vision ( _darshan shakti_ ) does not develop; naturalness is not attained.

**Dadashri** : It will not be attained. _Sahaj shakti_ , the energy of naturalness (of the Self) is a different thing. It is not something that you acquire through efforts. Efforts drive it further and further away, and natural energy is _nirvikalp –_ free from the belief of 'I am Chandubhai'.

##  Naturalness Verily Means the Effortless State

**Questioner** : It is specified in the Charan Vidhi (spiritual booklet for _Mahatmas_ to sustain awareness after attainment of _Gnan_ ), 'bless me with the naturalness of thought, speech and acts just like You (the _Gnani_ ),' so how is that naturalness? What is the definition of naturalness?

**Dadashri:** Naturalness in gross language is defined as the effort free state. There is no effort of any kind. No effort is necessary from the Self and no effort is required on the part of the body (the non-Self). Even mental effort or intellectual effort is not necessary. No effort at all, is the effort free state.

**Questioner:** But in that there would be harmony amongst thoughts-speech and activity, no?

**Dadashri:** The effort free state has happened. That's it. No effort. The one who used to make the effort is gone from it. The mind-speech and acts are the doers of the work and from them all, the one who used to make the attempts, 'the doer' leaves. The absence of the attempter-doer is the state of naturalness and the presence of the attempter-doer is the state of unnaturalness. So once the attempter leaves it is natural. Later on whatever activity is happening, there is no problem; problem is of the attempter—doer only.

**Questioner:** So becoming an attempter is the ingrained knot within him.

**Dadashri:** Yes.

**Questioner:** That means that really in any process there is no need to make an effort or an attempt at all?

**Dadashri:** Attempt is necessary, but the doer of the attempt is unnecessary. If we say that there is no need to make an effort then people will quit doing the work. They will have mental attitude ( _bhaav_ ) to quit. So there is a need to make an attempt.

**Questioner:** But what is the reality from within, in exactness?

**Dadashri:** Once that attempter ( _prayaas karnaro_ ) disappears then it is done.

**Questioner:** When these actions are going on through the thoughts-speech and acts, at that time does the attempter really exist?

**Dadashri:** It is because of the presence of the attempter that there is an attempt. And that is the unnaturalness. Once the attempter leaves then the same thing becomes natural.

**Questioner:** That means when this process takes place by thoughts-speech and body when the attempter is doing and when the process takes place in the absence of the attempter, both these actions were really mechanical, no?

**Dadashri:** It is one and the same thing to have this happen; there is no change in the occurrence.

**Questioner:** So does it mean the same thing would have happened even if he had not made an effort ( _prayaas_ )?

**Dadashri:** There is interference ( _dakhal_ ) in the effort, and that is the problem.

**Questioner:** Does one suffer the consequences of the interference or do any changes in thoughts-speech and acts happen due to the interference?

**Dadashri:** That change is not going to happen. The effort was made ( _prayas_ ) therefore it is not called effort free ( _aprayas_ ).

**Questioner:** That is correct but when that effort takes place, does any change happen in the activity of thoughts-speech and acts?

**Dadashri:** No changes at all!

**Questioner:** So then what is the consequence of making an attempt?

**Dadashri:** That is only his ego, 'I am doing'!

**Questioner:** Is that considered a liability of the next life?

**Dadashri:** Yes, He is taking a liability of the next life, because it is the wrong belief.

**Questioner:** And if that wrong belief leaves then can we say that the attempter (doer of the effort) is gone?

**Dadashri:** Then it is the effort free state; one becomes natural and spontaneous. What 'we' (The _Gnani_ and the fully enlightened Lord within) eat, drink, all that is called natural.

**Questioner:** That means that when there was the wrong belief then there was the attempter; and what does he become after the wrong belief is gone?

**Dadashri:** Nothing happens, the interference ( _dakho_ ) leaves.

**Questioner:** But does the one who had the wrong belief, exist later on?

**Dadashri:** On one side is the Self and on one side is this body, the effort free body, thoughts-speech and acts. It is still _pudgal_ (integrating and disintegrating non-Self complex). The middle part of egoism is gone.

The one that was doing the strain is gone; the one who was getting drained is gone. The one who was getting bored is gone. All of them are gone.

**Questioner:** Then who is left?

**Dadashri:** Nothing, this, the non-Self complex remains natural. There is no one else's interference within.

**Questioner:** The acts of the body have to be done, there is the speech, and so in all that the ego is necessary, no?

**Dadashri:** No need at all. The one, who was creating causes, is indeed gone. Only effect remains.

**Questioner:** But then you are saying that no activity takes place until the ego places its signature, so then which ego is it?

**Dadashri:** It is the discharge ego.

**Questioner:** In that case what will be the difference in the activity and the result carried out through this discharge ego?

**Dadashri:** Sahaj, natural and spontaneous. There is no attempter, the effort doer; it would be natural.

**Questioner:** Yes, it would be natural, but the ego that was making the attempt would not be there, but would the discharge ego not be there?

**Dadashri:** There is no problem with that. The discharge ego would be there definitely. Everything of it is dying, discharging. That is called ( _sahaj_ _kriya_ ) natural and spontaneous activity.

##  Gnani is Eternally in Effortless State

**Questioner** : When one keeps thinking about food, thinks about tea, and all those things, does that mean that he has lost that _sahajata_?

**Dadashri** : _Sahajta_ will go away, no? Just because _sahajata_ is gone, it does not mean that the Self is eating. It is the 'eater' (the one who believes I am eating) that is eating. Ultimately the body ( _deha_ ) has to be made _sahaj_. He became the eater ( _ahaari_ ), but he has to be made _sahaj_. All that is needed is to become _sahaj_ , and that will take time. But _sahaj_ means liberated state, completion ( _purnata_ ). _Sahaj_ means complete effortless state. There is no problem if tea or food comes, with effortless state.

Who is said to be a _Gnani_ _Purush_? The _Gnani_ _Purush_ is the one who is in the continuous effortless state. The whole world is in the state of making effort ( _prayatna_ ) and you are in the state of lesser exertion-effort ( _yatna_ ). You are doing the good or the bad, and creating interference through that. You may wonder if this lineage of _pudgal_ (the non-self complex of thoughts, speech and acts) goes away, then what will happen? The constant existence cycle of _pudgal_ will continue. The Self is _Gnata_ - _Drashta_ (Knower-Seer) and _akriya_ (inactive). It does not have to make an effort or do exertion either.

**Questioner:** You do experience the Self, as separate, so do you experience its separateness at every location ( _pradesh-_ with reference to its contact to the non-Self complex)?

**Dadashri:** Yes, every place. It is verily separate; it is separate in you too.

**Questioner** : He is separate, but it is the question of Being that, Being the separate Self ( _vartavoo_ ).

**Dadashri** : To be the Self ( _vartavoo_ ), Conduct as the Self means that Self Knowledge is all prevalent, complete in every way ( _sarvaswa prakarey_ ). However much there is _aGnan_ (absence of the Self) that much it will lack in Conduct as the Self ( _vartey_ ).

**Questioner** : But, does that mean that it prevails ( _vartey_ ) like that throughout the body?

**Dadashri** : Yes, it prevails exactly like that. However much it prevails, that much _sahaj_ he is. Body becomes _sahaj_ after one attains _Gnan_ , because _sahajata_ arises where anger-pride-deceit-greed are gone.

**Questioner** : It is a great thing to be _sahaj_.

**Dadashri** : Is it not a great thing? Ultimately one will have to become _sahaj_ , will he not? You cannot do without becoming _sahaj_ at the end.

##  Dadashri's Unique Naturalness

**Questioner:** We are instructed to maximize the time with the _Gnani_. So when we stay around the _Gnani_ , then there we are to observe all this of the _Gnani_ , no?

**Dadashri:** Yes. The entire day you can observe his naturalness. How natural! How pure and spontaneous! How pure are the intents of the ego less state! You get to see the state devoid of intellect. These two are very rare; one never gets to see the state devoid of the ego and the intellect. Wherever you look you will see the people with intellect. Their words are filled with ego and arrogance. When they talk, they talk with puffed up nose (arrogance). Nothing is natural in them. Even when you try to take their picture their noses are high in the air with ego. And if a photographer happens to see me, he will take a picture even if he didn't want to. He will say, 'Here is a man who is natural and spontaneous and without any air of egoism.' A photograph of the stiff puffed nose is never natural.

So if you go with someone in a group there also if they do not see your face as a pulled face then they will understand that no, there is something. People are quick to notice very nicely. They do not know how to keep their faces _vitarag_ (without any effect), but they know very well to notice that the other person's face is _vitarag_. The pulled face does not look good, does it? Even if you notice in the photograph, you can see that this person has a pulled face. That is why when these photographers take a picture and if they notice that he has become unnatural then they cannot take good picture. He will look for naturalness. The photographer is always happy to see me. Anyway I turn for the picture he is happy because I am natural and spontaneous. He would become very happy. They are looking for the face that is spontaneous and natural, so they can take a picture easily. For the others, the photographer has to give instructions that please relax and sit thus. People become unnatural at the time of having their picture taken, and such a picture will not have much appeal. Natural picture looks beautiful. Which one will look good? The one that is natural. In the other one you can see the ego is expanded all over within.

When you take a picture and if you ask me to fold my hands together then I would do it, that's it. What else do I need? I will not think that this photographer is taking 'my' picture, otherwise I would become uptight and uneasy. I am always in naturalness. Many a photographer who comes in sees this naturalness of Dada and will push the button instantly.

As long as 'we' have _sahajikta_ , 'we' do not have to do any _pratikraman_. You, too, will not have to do _pratikraman_ in _sahajikta_. Any change in _sahajikta_ ; and you have to do _pratikraman_. However, and whenever you see 'us', you will see 'us' in Our same nature, there is no change in 'Our' _sahajikta_.

##  Understanding Vyavasthit Gives Rise to Naturalness

You have become the Self, so what else remains?

**Questioner** : So the Self has become pure. The question was what kind of a state is it in? And you said that a complete effortless state arises. There is not even the effort to put on slippers.

**Dadashri** : Right now, there is indeed the effortless state ( _aprayatna dasha_ ). It is called effort when the ego is present.

**Questioner** : You had said that if you have to catch a train, you go to the station to see if the train is coming or not. You don't keep straining your neck to see whether it is coming.

**Dadashri** : What is wrong in looking that way for the train? Then he will recognize that he has made a mistake. So you should maintain an inner intent ( _bhaav_ ) to become _sahaj_. What kind of _Drashti_ (Vision) should be maintained? Natural ( _sahaj_ ). At whatever time, whatever unfolds, See it all. What should your goal ( _dhyeya_ ) be – it should be 'I want to serve Dadaji and keep my _bhaav sahaj –_ my intent natural'. It is a tremendous thing to get the opportunity to serve Dada. One will only get it if he has the tremendous merit karma effect ( _punyai_ ) and not otherwise. One would not be able to even touch him! Just to be able to touch him even once is considered tremendous merit karma. And if such a rare occasion arises, accept it as 'as more than enough'. However, no matter what, you should remain in _Shuddha upayoga_ \- pure applied awareness as the Self.

**Questioner:** One can become _sahaj_ only when the complete science- _Vignan_ unfolds and opens within. Isn't that right?

**Dadashri:** When _'vyavasthit'_ is understood completely, then complete _sahaj_ state arises. Presently it is happening naturally on its own. Do not hold your breath for it; do not keep waiting for those guests. There is no end to waiting. But when _vyavasthit_ is understood, it instantly becomes natural - _sahaj._

**Questioner** : In order to become _sahaj,_ one has to completely understand _vyavasthit,_ right?

**Dadashri** : One becomes completely _sahaj_ when he understands _vyavasthit_ completely. However much one understands _vyavasthit_ , he becomes that much _sahaj_. So then there will be no suffocation at all. There is no conflict in the world if _vyavasthit_ is understood. And as much _vyavasthit_ One understands _, kevalGnan_ becomes unveiled by that much, and One becomes _sahaj_ by that much _._

**Questioner** : It is only when one does not understand _vyavasthit,_ that he goes outside of the _upayoga -_ the applied awareness as the Self, isn't that right?

**Dadashri** : Yes. Only then does he go. Otherwise he will not go outside of _upyoga_ , and only then he becomes _asahaj_. As he understands _vyavasthit_ , one continues to become _sahaj_. As he understands _vyavasthit_ , his veils get removed, and that is how it begins to become _sahaj._ You have become _nirvikalp_ (free from the belief of 'I am Chandubhai') for sure, but You have not become _sahaj_. You became _nirvikalp_ from the moment _Gnan_ was received.

As many _sahaj_ circumstances arise, that many changes will happen in speech-conduct. A state of _vitaragata,_ will begin to arise.

When does speech becomes _sahaj_? When it happens that, 'the taped record is playing', then speech will become _sahaj._ When he does not become the owner of speech, then he will become natural. Until then follow the five _Agnas_ properly and make progress in it.

**Questioner** : Does _sahajata_ of speech come after fourteen years?

**Dadashri** : It happens only then, does it not? _Sahajata_ of speech, _sahajata_ of the mind, _sahajata_ of the body, comes only then, does it not? That is its fruit (effect). As the _dehadhyas_ ('I am this body') gradually keeps going away, _sahajata_ comes. When _sahajata_ comes, it is called absolute state ( _purnahuti_ ), because the Self is already _sahaj_ , and the body becomes _sahaj_. Krupadudev has said that even if _dehadhyas_ leaves, it is more than enough. You (the Self) are not the doer of karma. "When _dehadhyas_ leaves, then you are not the doer of karma, you are not the sufferer of it; that is the essence of religion. ( _Chhotey dehadhyas to nahin karta tu karma_ , _nahin bhokta tu tehno_ , _eyj dharma no marma._ ')

_Sahajatma swarupa_ (natural state of the Self) is the ultimate _state_ , _sahaj_ state. _Sahajanand_ (bliss of naturalness), bliss of effort free state!

##  Devine Energy of the Self Manifests From Naturalness

What is naturalness? It is like flowing with the flow of water. If the flow of water turns this way, he will turn the same way. There is no _potapanu_ 'I-ness'. One follows where the flow of water takes him.

What is naturalness? The one who becomes natural even for one minute, comes in the state of Godhood ( _Bhagwan pada_ ). No one is able to become natural in this world! You have become natural because of this _Akram_ _Vignan_! Otherwise, is it possible to become natural while practicing law? How can a lawyer become natural? And on top of that, you are taking new cases! But look, You are becoming natural! That, too, is a wonder! This is known as the biggest miracle. And yet, we say, there is no such thing as a miracle. People use the term miracle because of lack of understanding. Actually, these are all scientific circumstantial evidences!

At present, the _Vignan –_ science of the Self, that has been given to You; is now constantly making You natural. And once You become natural, you become like 'Me'. Once you became like 'Me', you become the superior of the universe. _Dada Bhagwan_ is called the superior of the universe; the reason for that is that He is not the owner of this body. So then who is the owner of this body? Then he says, 'it is a public trust.'

**Questioner:** Dada, You have shown the divine energy of the Self ( _aishwarya_ ) to each seeker depending upon his capacity.

**Dadashri:** What an enormous _aishwarya_ is shown! Just look at the joy on their faces. Otherwise, their faces would look as if it is smeared with castor oil.

Even one sentence from the one who has become natural ( _sahaj_ ) is very beneficial to people! One has never (ever) become natural at all. Here, we have the solution to attain naturalness and this is it. Now, one becomes natural and straightforward in proportion to the wisdom he attains. Once you became straight forward (free from interfering intellect), you became natural.

When 'we' went to America, 'we' went there like a bundle (egoless) and returned like a bundle. We went everywhere in America, there too it was the same thing. Nothing is ours.

" _Vichre udaya prayog, apoorva vani param shruta_ —Moves around with the unfolding processes of circumstance! Unprecedented speech of absolute One, to be listened!" That is how it is.

**Questioner:** Does the divine energy of the Self arise and express from naturalness?

**Dadashri:** Yes, from being natural only. However much one becomes natural, that much divine energy (Godliness, energy helpful to all life) manifests. Now the foreigners are natural too. Our children are natural too, but that naturalness is due to ignorance (of the Self). So if the naturalness is associated with _Gnan_ , then it works.

**Questioner:** With worldly energy and prosperity, sooner or later one feels tired.

**Dadashri:** One feels sheer fatigue. One will get tired of worldly wealth. 'I have so many acres of land, I have so many bungalows,' all load falls on the mind. With every claim of 'mine' one utters, the load falls upon the mind. Yes, what can one do after saying so? Once it falls on his head, he feels suffocated and he does not know how to undo it. It will become undone if he says 'not mine', but he does not know that, does he?

##  Not the Activity but Restlessness in it, Binds Karma

There is no problem with the activity that are taking place, but the problem lies in the restlessness that arises in it. Activity ( _kriya_ ) is not to be stopped. It cannot even be stopped. The restlessness ( _chanchadata_ ) that arises in it, the _sahajta_ that is destroyed - that binds karma. When _sahajta_ is destroyed, karma is bound. There is nothing wrong with the activity you are carrying out, fault does not lie in all the activity, not even if one takes vain pride in doing it, but there should not be any restlessness in it.

**Questioner** : What is called restlessness? What are the attributes of restlessness?

**Dadashri** : One who has not been given our _Gnan_ , he is in restelessness; the whole world is. After 'we' give _Gnan_ , restlessness does not remain within one; naturalness remains. There is not the slightest of push from the Self, all external activity carry on automatically.

When _sahajta_ breaks, karma is bound. So the whole world is binding karma. If the restlessness is in positive intent, then it is binding good karma, and if it is in a negative intent, then it is binding bad karma. So one will have to suffer it again. A seed (karma, cause) is sown again. The restlessness will arise again.

##  Are you in a Hurry? Then Let go of all Possessions

**Questioner** : Dada my _laksha_ (goal) is for that ultimate state. What should do I to attain the ultimate state, because I have all these weaknesses ?

**Dadashri** : Your work will done be when you become free of that _vyavahar_ (worldly interaction).

**Questioner** : How can I get out of that file in order to attain the effortfree state ( _aprayatna dasha_ )?

**Dadashri** : That how to, you are able know, aren't you? _Vyavahar_ has not possessed you; you have possessed _vyavahar._ 'We' would just caution you that, 'dear man, these are the things that are detrimental'. We caution you about the things that obstruct you from getting what you want. But then if it is something you like, you keep on doing it. How am I to say 'no' to you!

**Questioner** : Sooner or later I will have to become free, will I not? There is no choice, is there?

**Dadashri** : Yes, but that is why you have to know the _Gnan_.

The one who is in a hurry will have to become _aparigrahi_ (nonacquisitive, externally or internally). Otherwise, you can go (attain the goal) while having fun, eating fritters etc. You have to decide between the two. You can go enjoying your fritters, isn't that so?

Mandatory worldly interaction ( _farjiyat vyavahar_ ), the Lord calls it _vyavahar –_ worldly interaction. One has to go toilet, one has to urinate, one has to eat and drink.

**Questioner** : Yes. So does one have to go to work?

**Dadashri** : No. Going to work is not _farjiyat vyavahar -_ a mandatory thing. It definately is not; going to work is indeed not. Going to work, doing business or farming, there is no such thing, is there!

**Questioner** : So then it means that it is something that one can blow off. Is it not?

**Dadashri** : Those things are not considered ( _sukha_ ) pleasure , are they? The one who wants to attain the higher states, indeed he would not have that. One who is settling it all with equanimity, for him, it is fine.

**Questioner** : To attain awareness of the Self and do worldly interactions, it is like expending all one's energies to do _vyavahar_. Having acquired the understanding of _Gnan_ from Dada and then to go over there (worldly interactions) and waste away all the energies of the Self; this is what happens.

**Dadashri** : It's like this. Food is necessary for the body; it is a necessity. Without it the body will wither away, it will die. The _vyavahar_ is there only to that extent and even then, the Lord said eat only once, whereby you will not die. Acquire your food through _vohriney_ (the tradition of going door to door seeking food in a bowl). This way you don't have to bother of bringing and keeping utensils. Ask for clothes too. Then spend the rest of the day in _upayoga –_ applied awareness _._

**Questioner** : This one remains according unfolding karma, and I remain in the _upayoga_.

**Dadashri** : Yes. One remains in _upyoga_ the whole day, does he not? Then there are no problems. There is no botheration there.

**Questioner** : Now for the one who wants to attain completion, he will need _aparigrahi dasha -_ a state free from worldly attachment, how can I settle with that, in the midst of the current worldly interaction ( _vyavahar_ )? How can I bring about the _aparigrahi_ state?

**Dadashri** : That which is your own, only You will Know. Settling of the files with equanimity is something You have to do, don't You?

**Questioner** : But as long as there is _vyavahar_ , it will remain as an impediment, will it not?

**Dadashri** : One will quickly settle with the _vyavahar_. If airline flight is to take off soon, and it is raining hard, would you sit around waiting for the rain to stop ?

**Questioner** : I will find a way, hurry up and catch the flight.

##  How can one Remain Sahaj?

**Questioner** : We need some tools ( _sadhan_ ) to make the body _sahaj_ , don't we?

**Dadashri** : Yes, how can one become _sahaj_ without the necessary tools? And what is more, they have to be the tools given by a _Gnani_ _Purush_. What kind should they be?

**Questioner** : Will any other tool not do? Will a tool given by any other person not do?

**Dadashri** : If the one who is in the state of ignorance, in an illusory state, wants to attain a natural path, he can do so even if starts acting naturally in that ignorant or illusory state. If someone serves him tea in the morning, he should go ahead and drink it, and if no one serves him tea, then that is fine. If they give him food, then he should eat, but he sould not ask for it if no one gives him any. In the present era of the time cycle, it is very difficult to maintain that _sahaj yoga_. The path of naturalness was good in the _satyuga_ (era time cycle marked by unity of thought, speech and activity). Today no one would serve him, without him asking. The poor fellow following the _sahajyoga_ would take a beating. It is a difficult thing.

In the _sahajyoga_ , if they you to sleep here (uncomfortable place) you go to sleep there. There will be no need for you to ask. You do not have to ask. To remain natural in whatever circumstances naturally unfold before you is the _sahaj_ path. But otherwise, all other _sahaj_ paths are the creation of people's imagination. There can never be the _sahaj_ path. That path is no child's play. One has done nothing but do all kinds of imagination.

If one can remain _sahaj_ for just one month, then there is no need for him to do any other _yoga_. Just one month of remaining _sahaj_ is more than enough.

**Questioner** : How can one remain _sahaj_ for just one day? How is his conduct?

**Dadashri** : Conduct? In naturally arising circumstances ( _sahaj prapt sainyogo_ ); both external and internal; the circumstances of the mind, the intellect, if he reamins beyond them; then he can attain naturalness. When the mind and everything else within is shouting and screaming, he remains separate from it and sees and knows them all. And on the outside, in the naturally arising circumstances; if he does not get his meal by two in the afternoon, then he cannot say anything. If it comes at three, three-thirty, then at that is the time, whatever time they serve him.

**Questioner** : How can one remain _sahaj_ , while having to fulfil his worldly obligations?

**Dadashri** : You cannot remain _sahaj_. Rarely there is one in a billion who does such a _sahajyoga._ It is not worth talking about _sahaj_. Instead, if there is a living 'burning lamp' ( _Gnani_ _Purush_ ), you should say to him, 'Sir, please light my lamp', so he would light it for you. Then the problem is over. Your concern in only with lighting the lamp, is it not? You can remain _sahaj_ on that path of _Gnan_. 'We' (the _Gnani_ ) constantly remain _sahaj_.

You can eat as much _doodhpak_ - _puri_ (milk ambrosia and fried unleavened bread) and _maalpuda_ (sweet fermented and fried bread), as you can, if it comes to you naturally. And then if you get _rotla_ (dry barley bread) and vegetables, eat that also. Do not welcome _maalpuda_ and _dudhpak_ , and push away _rotla_. Nowadays, welcoming one and pushing away the other, what other business is there?

**Questioner** : Dada, I had read a lot about, 'Become _sahaj_ , become _sahaj'_ , but how can one become _sahaj_? For that you said that if someone serves you _doodhpak_ , eat it, if someone serves you a _rotlo_ , then eat it. After hearing you say that, I can understand how to become _sahaj_.

**Dadashri** : Not to welcome one thing and and not to push away another thing is called _sahaj_. Whatever comes to you is _sahaj_. Then let others say, 'it is fried; it is fried. It will cause you problems'. You foolish man! Fried foods harm people with ( _vikrut buddhi_ ) intellect hurtful to others. Nothing will harm the one who is _sahaj._ Eat whatever comes to you. Suffer the pain that comes to you and suffer the pleasure that comes before you. As far as the _Gnani_ is concerned, there is no such thing as pain-pleasure! But it just comes.

And will one avoid it if it is bitter?

**Questioner** : He will get rid of it.

**Dadashri** : So whatever happens to the facial expression (while eating the bitter) let it happen. Do not interfere with it; this whole path is entirely that of _sahajata_ (naturalness).

**Questioner** : They say,' _Sahaj mila so doodha barabar_ – that which you receive naturally, is like milk', that means whatever one receives naturally is an effect from past life ( _prarabdha_ ); so then what is the difference between this and _purushartha_ (effort; cause)?

**Dadashri** : Attaining _sahaj state_ is not dependent on _prarabdha_ (effect, destiny); it is dependent on _Gnan_. One becomes _asahaj_ (unnatural) when there is _aGnan_ , and in the presence of _Gnan_ he continues to become _sahaj_. The whole world is _asahaj_ because of the _aGnan_ , is it not?

This is _Akram_ _Vignan_ , the direct realization of the Self; there is no _kram_ (sequential order of doing things for progress) or anything like that here. There is nothing to be 'done' in it. Where one 'does' things, the Self is not there. Where there is 'doing', there is worldly life there ( _sansaar_ ) and where there is naturalness ( _sahaj_ ) _,_ there is the Self there.

##  In the Ultimate State all Activity Without Effort

One becomes intertwined in worldly entanglements, more and more everyday. He did not have a garden, so he sees someone else's garden and makes a garden at home. Then he has to keep digging and digging, brings fertilizer and then waters the garden. On the contrary, the _mooah_ (mortal) increases his entanglement. How much entanglement was necessary?

**Questioner** : Just for eating and drinking.

**Dadashri** : Yes, those that are considered necessary. Necessary means that you cannot do without them. What happens if you do not eat? The human life goes to waste. What can you do? That does not mean that you eat rich sweets and other exotic food. Simple meals like, _khichadee_ – lentil and rice, or rice and lentil soup, but it is necessary. We were meant to remain dependent up to this level. To what exent? To the the extent of our necessity.

**Questioner** : That is correct.

**Dadashri** : Now, just because you ate, is eating alone sufficient? Thereafter will the results will come; do results not come for whatever you do?

Now, the necessities are such that they cannot be decreased either. Someone may say he wants to decrease them, but he is not able to. The daughter-in-law keeps complaining, the wife keeps nagging. But if you have the inner intent ( _bhaav_ ) that you want to reduce them, then it is more than enough.

The greater the unnecessities one has, greater is the problem. Even necessities are a problem nevertheless, they are not considered as such. This is because they are needed. But all non-necessities are a problem.

Every thing that is a necessity should happen naturally without you thinking about them. It indeed happens on its own. You do not have to wait for urine to be formed. It will form on its own, and one does not wait around for the appropriate place to urinate. Wherease all the intellectuals have to look for a place. However in the other case, urination will take place whenever and wherever; all that is considered a necessity.

**Questioner** : This talk is of the ultimate state, is it not?

**Dadashri** : Of course, it is the ultimate state. What other state? In view of the ultimate state, if You keep attaining higher state, You will then attain the ultimate. But what if you have been making your shop bigger from the start? Then the ultimate state will come late.

**Questioner** : One can reach the ultimate state only if he has a picture of it first, right?

**Dadashri** : Only then you can get there. I am giving you this picture of the ultimate state. Only the necessities are there. There won't be any pots or dishes and as far as necessities go, one will not even wait for an appropriate place to urinate. These beings are natural ( _sahaj_ ), so they are like the cows and the buffalos. They would not be embarrassed by it. Do the cows or buffalos get embarrassed? Not even if they are standing in the middle of a wedding ceremony? Would they not use discretion ( _vivek_ ) at that time?

**Questioner** : No at all, they'll not be discreet in front of anyone. It will ruin everyone's clothes. So at the time of such a natural state ( _sahajta_ ), how is one's own _upyoga_ (applied awareness of the Self)?

**Dadashri** : Complete! When the body is natural, then the Self is complete indeed (in the state of the Self).

**Questioner** : So He will not have any vision towards outside at all?

**Dadashri** : All that is complete and everything on the outside is continually being Seen. Everything has come into One's Vision and that verily is the natural state of the Self ( _sahajatma_ _swarupa_ ); that is the absolute guru – _param guru_. The one whose Self remains in such naturalness is verily the _Paramguru_!

**Questioner** : So presently the one who says 'no' and will look for a toilet; who is that? What is that?

**Dadashri** : _Vivek_ (discretion) remains, does it not? It will not let naturalness ( _sahajata_ ) remain. In naturalness, there is no such thing as _vivek_ (discretion). In _sahajata_ , one eats when he is given food, otherwise he does not ask for it or even think about it; nothing. Even if he has hunger pangs, He is not in it.

**Questioner** : What does he do when he is hungry?

**Dadashri** : Nothing.

**Questioner** : He would even have such unfolding karmas ( _udaya_ ) whereby if he gets hungry, everything will come to him, would he not?

**Dadashri** : That indeed would be the rule; they would come to him. Everything would come to him naturally.

**Questioner** : So then it will definitely go into necessity. Food is a necessity, not the clothes? Clothes do not go into a necessity, do they?

**Dadashri** : Not at all. Necessity means clothes or any such things, would not come under it; only the necessities of the body.

##  In the Effort to Attain the Natural State...

**Questioner** : Right now, there are the circumstances, and there are many more things than the basic necessities, so what is the connection to reach from having many unnecessary things ( _unavashyak_ ) to the state where only the necessity ( _avashyak_ ) is left? What is the way?

**Dadashri** : It happens as it decreases. It will take longer if you increase it. It will happen if you lessen it.

**Questioner** : What should one do to lessen it?

**Dadashri** : Why, will it not become less since you do want to get married? And what about the one who wants to get married?

**Questioner** : It will increase.

**Dadashri** : Yes, that is it. There is some _nischaya_ (decision), isn't there? Is everything according to the plans or is it haphazard? If one wants to go to _moksha_ , it would be according to a plan, wouldn't it?

**Questioner** : According to plan means one has to do it, is that it? Does one have to arrange it according to a plan? Does one have to arrange such decisions?

**Dadashri** : One does not have to arrange them; they have already become arranged. We are just discussing this. To whatever degree one's _bhaav –_ inner intent, towards it decreases, things will begin to settle down and one will become _sahaj._ How can he become _sahaj_ otherwise? It does not work, just because you believe it in your mind. Does even a single thing you believe in your mind, work?

**Questioner** : When one does not want to marry, then all the entanglements related to it will be reduced...

**Dadashri** : To whatever degree the entanglements decrease, one continues to proportionately become _sahaj_ and becomes helpful. If you increase the entanglements, the naturalness will decrease. One has become little natural ( _sahaj_ ), fractionally _sahaj_ , since 'we' have given _Gnan_. But if someone claims that 'since Dada has called them 'files', it does not matter however many I make. Where is the problem now?' So would 'we' say 'no' to him if he wants to do the wrong thing?

**Questioner** : What should the inner awareness be like in order to reduce the things on the outside?

**Dadashri** : The inner awareness should be that things are the source of pain ( _dukhadayi_ ) '.

**Questioner** : You have now shown us that, except for the necessities, we should get rid of as many non-necessities as possible, is that it?

**Dadashri** : Yes, you should not have all of them. If you have become bound to them, then be in the effort of gradually letting them go.

**Questioner** : So where does this 'letting go' lie? You said that these things should not be there, right?

**Dadashri** : In that, you should not ponder over the words 'let go'. This is something you have to understand from within that 'when will I become free from this?' One will let go of that which one believes to be detrimental to him. Just look at how he emphatically says 'no' when it comes to marriage.

**Questioner** : In everything one should be able to realize that it is detrimental to him.

**Dadashri** : When he feels that way about everything, that's when there is a solution. There is still an interest in other things. You don't have an interest in getting married, and that's why you clearly say,'not mine'. Even when the circumstances come from the outside, you are able to quickly discard it. That is how it should be with everything.

**Questioner** : Otherwise one is separate indeed, when it is clearly decided from within that this is not mine, so even when anything pulls me away, I am separate indeed, am I not?

**Dadashri** : Yes, if everything is like that, then there is no problem. Such was the case with King Bharat, even if they were to take away his entire kingdom and all his queens, he would be smiling. Or one should have the inner _bhaav_ that 'this should not be there. One should be completely _aparigrahi_ (nonacquisitive) amidst all _parigraha_ (acquisitions). That is how 'we' are, _aparigraha_ in the midst of _parigraha_.

**Questioner** : Complete _aparigraha_ in the midst of _parigraha_ means a thing (non-Self) and the Self; what connection is made between them? How was the separation made?

**Dadashri** : The separation is not made; the one who is _aparigrahi_ is 'I' (the Self, Dada) indeed .

**Questioner** : But how is it? I am asking this because circumstances of today are such, that one cannot push anything away even if he tries. One has such intent ( _bhaavna_ ), but the first way is to get rid of these things'.

**Dadashri** : 'I' without 'my' is God. All the 'my' are the impediments.

**Questioner** : So if I get rid of the 'my', then let the things remain where ever they are.

**Dadashri** : Yes, that is it! Ultimately this body has to be made _sahaj_. The more you 'had' (last life) painted; the more it has been unnatural ( _ashahaj_ ). So it will take longer to become _sahaj_. 'We' had not painted anything, so it resolves quickly.

##  One Becomes Natural by Seeing the Natural One

Only one thing needs to be said and that is 'brother, the Self is natural ( _sahaj_ ). Now, You have to make the _pudgal_ (the non-Self complex), natural.' So how can the non-Self become natural? One can become natural by observing someone who is natural. By observing the _Gnani_ , by observing the _Gnani_ 's naturalness in activity, one becomes natural and spontaneous. One may ask, 'Can we learn that in the college?' The answer is it cannot be learned in the college. How can it be learned in the college when the professors themselves do not have such awareness? And this _Gnan_ (that which is attained in _Akram_ _Vignan_ ) is beyond words, it is natural and spontaneous activity.

If a young boy is left to live with a bandit, he will become a first class bandit within only six months. If he attends a school where he is taught to become a bandit, he will not become one even in twenty years. Likewise, if one stays with a _Gnani_ _Purush_ , naturalness manifests by itself.

Unlimited restlessness has arisen in a person from time immemorial. That restlessness gradually eases into the stillness of naturalness.

If you observe my naturalness when someone insults me, then wonder and amazement will arise within you that 'Oh! Its like this!' You learn immediately at that time. You learn by just observing. Then if someone were to insult you, you too would learn to be natural. Otherwise, you will not learn that even in a million lives. Just by staying near the _Gnani_ , all such attributes continue to manifest within you by automatically; naturalness will arise. Even _Akram_ _Vignan_ says; its ultimate intent is just this that naturalness begins to happen.

**Questioner** : Is there a difference between _Akram_ _Vignan_ and _sahaj yoga_?

**Dadashri** : This is indeed the _sahaj yoga_. This is a complete science ( _poorna vignan_ ). _Sahaj yoga_ means not _asahaj_ (unnatural). This entire world is _kalpit_ (projected imagination, illusory) and this (Self) is natural. _Akram_ _Vignan_ is an absolute science. This absolute science means that as long as it is incomplete, it is unnatural ( _asahaj_ ). When it becomes complete, it becomes natural ( _sahaj_ ) _._

**Questioner** : I believe that only because of this _Akram_ _Vignan_ , one no longer needs the traditional yoga disciplines of _yama_ - _niyama_ - _asana_ - _pranayam pratyahara-dharana_ - _dhyan_ - _samadhi_.

**Dadashri** : There is no need for it at all! This state is attained only after the complete _ashtanga_ - _yoga_ happens. When that becomes completed, only then does one become _sahaj_ , otherwise he cannot become _sahaj_ , can he? _Ashtanga_ - _yoga_ is the main traditional path and this path is a rare exception. It is a very rare happening. But otherwise, the other ( _kramik_ ) is the main path; this _Akram_ path is an exception. This path does not remain forever. In this exception, whoever finds the direction, his work is done.

*****

#  [6[

#  See Just one Pudgal

##  The Pudgal Dances and the Self Sees!

When the self, the non-Self complex ( _pudgal_ ) does all the worldly 'dances' and the Self 'Sees' that, only then it can be called a "full-stop". It will do all the worldly dances, and there should be nothing like 'I do not want this', or 'if that happens, this will happen. It will bind me'. There should be no cutting or splicing of the 'film'. If certain parts are cut out, the connection cannot be made. So the entire film should be natural. Whatever natural ( _sahaj_ ) worldly film there is, it is good. If a renunciate's natural film is one of renouncing, it will do. It should be natural for him. The film needs to be free from the cut-offs in the middle of, 'I don't want this. I want that'. Hey _mooah_ (mortal)! Why are you cutting the film in the middle in this way? Whatever happens; let it be, why don't you! You have done this for so long. Now everything has fallen into place, so why are you turning it up side down again? Everything has fallen into place having done all this (in the past). 'I want this, I don't want this'. Now that things are in place, do you have to do it again?

One will say, 'I want to let go of the six _vigais_ '. Hey, forget about that, what will you eat if you do that? Aren't jaggery, _ghee_ , yogurt, cream-butter, oil part of the _vigai_? And oil? _Mooah_! Is your worship for letting go or is your worship of God? Do you worship God? In whose home does God reside, and who does He worship?

So you can say that, when You-the Self 'Sees' the entire dance of the _pudgal_ , realize that You have arrived at a fullstop. When You do not take any interest ( _rus_ ) in any dance, then the _sampoorna_ (absolute, completion) has arrived. You should not take interest (pleasure is built in) in it. Only when You attain the absolute Self-state, do you cease to take interest. You have been given that complete Selfstate; the very state where no interest is taken has been given to You. And the partial state will take interest. 'This will have to be renounced. I will have to do this' – are the _dakho_ interferences of the _mooah._ When have you not renounced? In which life have you not renounced ( _tyaga_ ) ? And then he acquires ( _grahan_ ) the very same thing again. When one becomes an ascetic (monk _, sadhu_ ); in this life one becomes an ascetic, then as he becomes old, he gets tired and fed up of it feeling 'darn all this...instead it would have been better living the worldly life'.

So You should maintain two things; either remain in the present, or keep 'Seeing' your own _pudgal_ (the non-Self mind, speech and body complex). I have made your Self so pure that You are able to See your _pudgal_ in every way.

As You keep Seeing, Your own light will increase and even bliss will keep increasing. Has bliss not increased? All of You say say that the bliss has increased tremendously. So then what is the problem with that? This one (discharging ego) is complaining about the side of the _pudgal._ But You have nothing to do with the side of the _pudgal_ , so for how long should You keep the friendship? When the friendship of the _pudgal_ gives you so much beating, then for how long should You maintain that friendship? Can You not gradually let go of that friendship? Say you have a friend, but what if that friend betrays you terribly? What then? Don't you slowly let go of that friendship? In the same way, render this (dance of the _pudgal_ ) uninteresting .

##  See first and then Know

**Questioner** : You have mentioned in the Aptavani that 'you know but you do not see' – what do you mean by that?

**Dadashri** : 'See' what Chandubhai is doing; he drank tea, See all that he ate and drank. This one knows everything but he does not See, does he? 'You' should constantly 'See' the _pudgal._ That is indeed Your first duty, then comes the duty of Knowing.

**Questioner** : This 'Seeing', how is it done?

**Dadashri** : Can You not See what he is doing? 'I' can See what 'Ambalal' is doing the whole day. Similarly, 'You' should be able to See (Chandulal); that is all. That is all You are to See, there is no need for a new design or no need to bring in an architect. You should be able to See the way I See it.

**Questioner** : You had once mentioned that when Chandubhai is eating, You should be able to see him just as he appears in a mirror.

**Dadashri** : Yes. You should See him exactly that way. Whether I see him or a mirror sees him, it is the same thing, is it not? You should See him exactly that way. Is that difficult?

**Questioner** : Dada, it is easy for you. But is it not difficult for us?

**Dadashri** : No. But You have to gradually make it fit; then it will fit on its own. If Your Vision does not go in that direction, then how can it fit? Lord Mahavir used to do only one thing, He used to constantly See what Mahavir (his non-Self) was doing, that is all. There would be no other work that would lead to problems ( _bhanjghad_ ). When Mahavir was awake, the Lord Mahavir (the awakened One) would see him awake. I See in that manner. 'You' have to See the way I See. Just as a man with awareness and understanding is observing you continuously, closely ( _nirikshan_ ); You too should closely See (Chandubhai); that is all there is. Everyone has the energy to closely observe others, but this here is the energy to closely observe ( _nirikshan_ ) one's self. It is because there is no practice of doing so since time immemorial, that one falls short there.

We make it easy for you by making You See your self in the mirror. This way You will gain practice; You have not seen this way from time immemorial. This is because, what was there to see when you have believed that 'This is me, myself'. Now the Self has become separate and that is why You can See. The 'Seer' has become separate.

The final Knowing-Seeing is when Chandubhai is coming or going, You See it as 'O ho ho! Come come Chandubhai'. When Chandubhai is talking, even then You can See him as being separate.

##  Seeing Leads to Purity

**Questioner** : One has to remain as _Shuddhatma_ (the Self) and 'See' the ego-mind-intellect, and then you said that there is no liberation for us without purifying them. So when one attaines the state of Shuddhatma, do they not become pure on their own?

**Dadashri** : When You follow 'our' Agna, You will be able to 'See'. They become pure ( _shuddha_ ) by 'Seeing' them. One became bound when he saw them as impure, when he imagined them to be impure. He became liberated upon seeing them as pure. You become liberated when You See them as pure.

**Questioner** : Does that process begin by just 'Seeing' continuosly?

**Daashri** : Yes, You have to keep 'Seeing' what Chandubhai is doing. You have to See what is Chandubhai's intellect doing, what is his mind doing.

You should not worry; others may become worried. You know Chandubhai and know that his nature is just like that from the core and if you try to improve him, it would take you countless lifetimes. Even if the stock is good, it is to be discarded and the bad stock is also to be discarded. Since it has to be discarded anyway, then why worry once you come into the Self? So keep 'Seeing'. Whatever stock there is within, it has no value. After attaining the Self, the _pudgal_ has no value at all. An overwise person on the contrary would become tainted even more. This world is such that an overwise person, will contiue to take a beating.

**Questioner** : So should we congratulate people or not?

**Dadashri** : Whether it is given or not, it is Chandubhai who is giving it, isn't he? 'You' do not have to give it. 'You should 'See' when Chandubhai gives it or when he does not. 'You' keep Seeing what Chandubhai is doing. Lord Mahavir used to do only one thing all day; he Saw only his pudgal (non-Self complex). He Saw where all the changes occurred, what other vibrations arose; He only kept 'Seeing' all that within. He even kept Seeing his eyelids move. Now what Lord Mahavir was Seeing, was different from what people see. People see through this sense organ of the eyes ( _indriya_ ). And the Lord was Seeing with Knowledge beyond the senses ( _atindriya_ ). What people with the eyes cannot see, the Lord can See it all.

**Questioner** : But Dada, what you say about 'Seeing', - that is the greatest _Purushartha_. To remain the Knower-Seer and to keep 'Seeing' all that.

**Dadashri** : The ultimate _Purushartha_ is what Lord Mahavir was doing.

An _acharya maharaj_ (spiritual master) asked, 'Lord, What do you keep seeing?' The Lord said, 'I keep Seeing only the _pudgal'_. The rest can be seen with these eyes, which is not considered 'Seeing'. I have shown You the way to See. You will not be able to see the pudgal properly yet. Therefore I have told You to 'See' the Real and the relative, everything that you see on the outside is relative. If You 'See' the Real within them as you go by, for three hours, then a wonderful _samadhi_ (oneness with the Self). will prevail. Not even three, if You do it for just for an hour, _samadhi_ like that of _Punya Shravak_ would prevail.

And when you interact with others, when someone is cursing you, you should not 'see' him as someone who is cursing. See the _Shuddhatma_. You should 'See' who is cursing and who He is; that too has to be 'Seen'. Both the knowledge should remain at the same time. And 'our' _Gnan_ makes that possible.

**Questioner** : You have given us that Vision Dada, haven't you?

**Dadashri** : Yes.

**Questioner** : All this talk would remain only in words if you had not given us that Vision.

**Dadashri** : The Five Agnas that 'we' have given to You; encompasses all that. .

##  Keep Reading Your own Book

**Questioner:** Dada has said, 'Keep reading only your own 'book', it is not worth reading any one else's book. Just read this book of the _pudgal_. Read the book of the mind, the speech and the body activity, it is not worth reading any other 'book'.

**Dadashri:** This reading is not so easy. It is the task of a valiant ( _vira_ as in Mahavir—the great brave One). In spite of being easy, it is not that easy. In spite of being hard, it is still easy. 'We' constantly remain in this _Gnan_. However, 'we' cannot remain as Lord Mahavir did. Only a _vira_ (brave) can do that! 'We' lack four degrees (to attain absolute Knowledge). Such deficiency will not work there. Yet 'our' Vision remains only there.

The _Tirthankara_ Lord constantly remains in his _Gnan_. The results within were only that of _Gnan_. How does he remain in that? What kind of knowledge had yet to gain that he had to remain in that? For the One who is sitting with the realm of _kevalGnan_ (absolute Knowledge) what knowledge still remained for such a _Purush_ , whereby he has to remain in that? The answer would be that He used to keep His Vision only on his own _pudgal_ and kept Seeing it.

Lord Mahavir used to constantly See what the non-Self complex ( _pudgal_ ) was doing or not doing. When celestial beings tormented the Lord with bed bugs, his body (Mahavir; non-Self) tossed and turned, and He (Lord Mahavir; the Self) kept 'Seeing' that. When 'Mahavir' tosses and turns, it is the nature of the body to do so. Regardless of whether one is Mahavir or someone else, that is the body's nature. Only egoistic people do as they choose. Forget the bed bugs, they will not budge even if they were set on fire. This is because they pour their entire energy ( _atmashakti_ —ego mediated energy) in it. They have decided that no matter what happens, they are not going to move. But look, how much energy of the self! Whereas these are _sahajbhaavi_ (natural and spontaneous), all _Gnanis_ and keval _Gnanis_ are all natural and spontaneous. They would react and cry and may even scream out in reaction to the pain. If the bedbugs bite, they (body) will toss and turn from side to side and they (Self) See all that. He first went into settling the karma, then it went into Seeing; He constantly Saw. He keep the Vision on only one _pudgal._ On the one _pudgal_ in which, all other _pudgal_ are included. One has to only See one's own _pudgal_ so that it dissolves.

Lord Mahavir could See how Mahavir is looking. The Lord kept Seeing Mahavir. He would See only one _pudgal_ , his own and no other _pudgal_ at all. _Pudgal_ (non-Self complex) means whatever _puran_ (input; cause) and _galan_ (output; effect) that is going on. He saw, 'This _puran_ going on, and this _galan_ going on'. When eating _vedhami_ (bread stuffed with sweet lentils) _puran_ happened, he ate _jalebi_ (crispy dessert soaked in sugar and saffron syrup) that is _puran_ , what _galan_ took place; He would constantly See all that.

He would Know and See what kind of breath he took near the sewer of Bandra? Breath that was taken in, and the kind of breath taken in when passing by the sewer of Bandra, He would See and Know all that. What kind of breath goes in if one is near the sewers of Bandra (Suburb of Mumbai)?

**Questioner** : Yes, there would be a foul odor....

**Dadashri** : People pinch their noses but even then the stench will enter. He would See that as only one _pudgal._ One _pudgal_ means he would not make a distinction of duality as to 'this is bad and this is good. This is bad speech coming out and this is good speech' – there would be no such things. Only one thing and that is 'all this is just _pudgal'_.

**Questioner** : Then, there is no such thing as right or wrong in the Vision of the pure Self.

**Dadashri** : This vision of good-bad is what is already bound from the understanding we had from before. Therefore, it is this bound vision that creates this duality. Otherwise there is only one _pudgal_. Good and bad is in one's understanding, and what is more, it is also a relative phenomenon. If you were to give meat to a Hindu who has been hungry for three days, he will refuse it. He will tell you, 'No matter how hungry I am, Amish food is not acceptable', whereas a Muslim will gadly take it. So this is how everything is. We feel disgusted at the thought of eating meat. What I am trying to say that there is no such thing as right or wrong there. Call it meat or vegetarian; it is only _pudgal_. _Pudgal_ means that whatever had been charged ( _puran_ , intake), that is exactly what is being discharged ( _galan_ , output) now. Presently _galan_ is taking place. You can see the _galan_ now, but could you not see at the time of _puran_? The answer is yes, but the awareness was not there at the time. You can now See when _galan_ is happening, but new _puran_ is not happening, and so it comes to a stop later. When does new _puran_ not occur? When one remains inactive ( _nivruti_ ) in activity ( _pravruti_ ), that is when new _puran_ ceases. So whatever activity you do, even then karma will not bind you, that is called _nivruti_. So on the outside, people understand worldly inactivity ( _sansari nivruti_ ) on a superficial level. That is like when the bull was active, he was going around in circles turning the wheel of the oil mill, now he is not going around.

##  After Right Vision, There is Only Discharge

People of the world have both, _puran_ (input, charge) and _galan_ (output, discharge), and that is called _moha_ (illusory attachment). And when there is only _galan_ and no _puran_ , it is called _charitra moha_. People may think that it is _moha_ , but we know that a file is being settled.

What do you see? We too call it a _pudgal_. Even when thousands of people were moving around Lord Mahavir, He constantly Saw the one entity, only _pudgal_. This is because what was filled ( _puran_ ) is now emptying ( _galan_ ). Therefore, in those who have attained the Self ( _samkiti_ ), only one thing is going on, and there are two things going on in the one who has not attained the Self ( _samyaktva_ ); he is doing _puran_ as well as _galan._ Whereas this one (the one who has attained the Self) is undergoing only _galan_ (discharge) of the _puran_ (charge) he had done in the past life. Therefore, if one is a Jain, he is emptying ( _galan_ ) as a Jain, a Shivites will empty as a Shaivite, a shoemaker will empty his shoemaking, and carpenter of his carpentry. People see it with different kinds of intellect, and then one ruins his own film.

The poor man is emptying that which was filled, why are you spoiling –interfering like this? Now, how can people understand this?

**Questioner:** We can understand this much more when there is direct presence of the _Gnani_ _Purush_. These puzzles are easily solved.

**Dadashri:** Yes, they get solved. They will not otherwise, will they? You will not find solutions in the scriptures, will you? It will not be finally settled, will it? That is why Krupadudev Shrimad Rajchandra ( _Gnani Purush_ 1867-1901) wrote that there is no final resolution ( _nivedo_ ) through scripture. There is no destruction-construction ( _bhanjghad_ ) if One Sees only the entity of _pudgal_. Otherwise, intellect will show different things. 'Why are these people doing this, why are they doing this?' Hey, these are enlightened beings. Whatever stock that is coming out, it is what was filled in the past life, why are you becoming all excited about that? Jain _pudgal_ and Vaishnav _pudgal_ means that they are emptying whatever stock they had filled.

**Questioner** : Then we have spontaneous satisfactory solution.

**Dadashri** : There will be a satisfactory solution. This _Gnan_ itself brings a complete satisfactory resolution. At everytime and place, You will have the solution, such is this _Gnan_ , _Akram_ _Vignan_. Even when someone curses you, you will have a satisfying solution. When Chandubhai curses someone, there will be a solution. And Chandubhai's karmic stock is being discharged. The other person's karmic stock is discharging.

**Questioner** : But one could not See Chandubhai before, could he?

**Dadashri** : He could not see that before. Until right Vision happens, one will see everything wrong, will he not? Until then, he does both, _puran_ (charge) and _galan_ (discharge), where as He (with right Vision) does only _galan_. He does not do anything else. If someone is smoking a cigarette, one will feel, 'What is this?' Those with intellect will be alarmed. Hey, that is what he has filled, so let that poor man empty it. In the _kramic_ path, there is such ongoing confusion even after one attains _samyaktva_ (right Vision). All kinds of confusions, because the intellect is stil there, is it not? One measures through the intellect right till the end (attains _moksha_ ). Does some of this not arise on the way for You ( _Mahatma_ )? That it is this way, and that way?

**Questioner** : No I do not feel that way.

**Dadashri** : Then it is good. We do not have any problem even if you say that.

Good or bad, Both is Only Pudgal

There are two parts of _pudgal_. Good and bad, profit and loss, there are two parts like that; this is what the _kramic_ path says. Whereas _Akram Path_ says that there is only one _pudgal_ , there is nothing else. There is only one _pudgal_ , so whether it is good or bad, the Lord does not have any objection; it is only for the societal arrangement. What is profit and loss based on? It is based on the worldly interaction, isn't it!

Otherwise everything is just one _pudgal._ Not right or wrong. Seeing something as good, creates attachment ( _raag_ ), seeing as bad creates _dwesh_ (abhorrence). But it is one _pudgal_. This is just the division people have created due to illusion. Everything is just a play of _pudgal_ ; it is only a play of _pudgal._ A straw-paddy, long or short, is still a straw-paddy, isn't it? Paper manufacturer will say that any straw-paddies the cows or bufallos do not use, is good for them. For them any kind of straws are good enough for paper making. To them it is all the same. Cows and buffalos do not like to eat the straw once it has become wet and damp from rainwater, unless they are very hungry. They will eat if they are very hungry. So, they will say that the straw is no good for them; that is how it is. In reality, it is not that way. In reality the One who Knows that this is _Chetan_ (Self) and this is _pudgal_ (complex); Knows everything. Everything formed through scientific circumstantial evidence is all _pudgal_. Everything arising from circumstances is _pudgal_ , anything arising through _swabhaav_ natural Self is _Chetan._

What is to be seen with eyes closed?

**Questioner** : Now I have to See only my own _pudgal_ ; no other kind of meditation ( _dhyan_ ) needs to be done.

**Dadashri** : There is nothing wrong with that. It is needed indeed. That is not called _dhyan_. That is called _Drashta_ (Seer)- _drashya_ (that which is being seen).

**Questioner** : So it a matter of Seeing just the body.

**Dadashri** : There is nothing wrong with that. That is necessary, is it not? You have to keep 'Seeing' only one _pudgal_. What does one _pudgal_ mean? That which is extremely valuable is _pudgal_ , and that which is worthless is also _pudgal_. Therefore consider _pudgal_ to be all the same. _Pudgal_ means _vinashi_ (destructible and therefore transient).

When One becomes the Seer ( _Drashta_ ) and makes the effort to Know what is within; that is when One becomes the Knower ( _Gnata_ ) and the other is _gneya –_ that which is being Known.

##  What Does one Pudgal Mean?

**Questioner** : What do you mean when you say, 'one _pudgal'_?

**Dadashri** : You can see all this, everything appears different, but _pudgal_ means the natural attribute of filling-emptying ( _puran-galan_ ). So You 'See' only the _pudgal_ in the entire body and nothing else. We are trying to say that we are not giving any kind of adjectives.

**Questioner** : Are you saying that to See one _pudgal_ means to keep seeing _puran_ - _galan_?

**Dadashri** : Just one _pudgal_ , nothing else. Whatever you count, it is all one _pudgal_. This is nothing else. I am giving You the entire _gneya_ as _pudgal_ only _._ That is why I don't give it to you in any adjectives.

These are all accounts of karma that has been charged ( _puran,_ filled); they will all discharge ( _galan_ , empty) and they are sticky. It is only one _pudgal,_ whether it is a cow or a buffalo.

**Questioner** : Do the mind, intellect, chit, ego come into the _pudgal_? Are they part of the _pudgal_?

**Dadashri** : Everything comes into _pudgal_. The ego, and everything. The entire world comes in just one _pudgal_. Everything that can be seen through the senses is _pudgal._

**Questioner** : Whatever happens to my or other's _pudgal_ is only _puran_ - _galan_.

**Dadashri** : Everything except the Self is _pudgal_. That has then been extended later. People tell me to say some more, so I told them, 'there is kitchen, toilet, _puran_ - _galan_ and _Shuddhatma'_. All this stock and baggage that we bring is 'kitchen' (charge) and all this discharge is 'toilet'. So there is just _puran_ (charge)- _galan_ (discharge) and _Shuddhatma_ , nothing else. People have made divisions of this with their intellect; 'this is gold, this is silver, this is lead, this is iron', etc. They made divisions through intellectual exercise.

**Questioner** : Regardless of what it is, it is still _pudgal._

**Dadashri** : It is only _pudgal_ ; it is all _pudgal_.

Now, what is the main attribute of _roopi parmanu_ – subatomic particles that have form? It is _puran_ - _galan_. If _puran_ (charge) has happened, then _galan_ (discharge) will continue. And when _galan_ has happened, _puran_ will continue to happen . Therefore, _puran_ - _galan_ , _puran_ - _galan_ , _puran_ - _galan_ continues. When you put something in here, food or drink, you will have to go to the toilet. If you inhale, then you have to exhale. Therefore, _puran_ - _galan_ , _puran_ - _galan_ continues. Does this not happen?

**Questioner** : Yes it does.

**Dadashri** : All this is its ( _pudgal's_ ) attribute. Do you now understand which penance ( _tapa_ ) Lord Mahavir was doing? _Aditha_ _tapa_ (internal penance not visible on the outside). How did He See only one _pudgal_? He was only the Knower of all the inner movements, all the activity, every inner vibration. He did not See anything on the outside; only this.

**Questioner** : If one wants to analyse anger-pride-deceit-greed, then the ego arises as an additional result ( _vishesha parinaam_ ), is it later that the _vyatirek guna_ (new independent attribute) arise? When anger arises, what is the connection between the ego and anger?

**Dadashri** : That is all _pudgal_ , but what is the point of rummaging through that (over analyse)? Do you want to extract anything out of the _pudgal_? Do you want to extract the essence from it?

**Questioner** : What is all this connection?

**Dadashri** : Only the Self is worthy of understanding, all else is _pudgal._ What is it that you want with the _pudgal_? Then we can break it down in details and understand it. Do you want to extract the essence of _pudgal_ from it? Do you want to completely attain only the Self, or do you even want to extract the essence of the _pudgal_?

**Questioner** : Only the Self is to be attained completely.

**Dadashri** : Those who entered into the _pudgal_ were never found; they never came out of it.

**Questioner** : Is that all for the benefit of understanding and knowing?

**Dadashri** : No, if one delves deeper to understand it, he will be lost and can never found again. Instead, what did Lord Mahavir do? He Saw just one _pudgal_ , no parts and no divisions at all.

**Questioner** : One whole _pudgal_.

**Dadashri** : Yes. Just one _pudgal_. There are endless kinds of situations, but there is just one _pudgal_ , which is _vinashi_ (destructible) in nature. Therfore, Lord Mahavir kept Seeing just one _pudgal_. He did not interfere in anything else. 'We' too would not interfere, would 'we'? If you want to understand, then 'we' can go deeper and explain it to you, but it will harm you. Do not go deep into it now. If you keep asking 'is the _pudgal_ like this?' then there is no telling where and how deep in the caves you will end up.

##  Ultimately Only This Exclusive Goal

**Questioner** : I try to 'See' the _pudgal_ only, but it remains for sometime and then it slips and becomes one.

**Dadashri** : You ( _Mahatmas_ ) are more accustomed with the outside things, no? People ( _aGnanis_ ) do not have practice of this inner separation at all. When you minutely observe a specific aspect of any _pudgal_ , with applied awareness ( _upayoga_ ), it will remain in your awareness ( _khyal_ ). In the same manner, You are to See your _pudgal_.

**Questioner** : So, outside of my own _pudgal_ there is no external interfering ( _dakhal_ ) at all?

**Dadashri** : What else? It is more than enough if You can 'See' one _pudgal_. One cannot do that, can he? We are trying to say that it will indeed create interference outside. You can try the practice of 'Seeing' but it is not possible. It will stay for little time and then you will miss again, it will wander outside!

**Questioner** : Such a stage will surely come, will it not?

**Dadashri** : The effort will be the same, but it will not happen, it will not stay, will it? It will go and come, go and come; You have to Know that. You have to 'See' only one _pudgal_. What is Chandubhai's mind doing, what is his intellect doing, what is his _chit_ doing, what is Chandubhai doing; to constantly 'See' all that, what is that? That verily is the complete _Shuddhatma_ – the pure Self!

**Questioner** : Suppose Lord Mahavir is 'Seeing' 'his' _pudgal_ , and at that time if Gautam Swami were to ask him a question, then the answer will come forth, will it not?

**Dadashri:** Even then the Lord is 'Seeing' only one _pudgal_.

**Questioner** : So it is the external part that gives the answer, right?

**Dadashri** : He (the Self, the Knower) will not give the answer, at that time the _pudgal_ part (the non-Self complex), that very part gives the answer.

**Questioner** : That is correct. But which external part are we referring to as 'one _pudgal_ ' and any other part besides this?

**Dadashri** : The One who is the 'Seer' and the 'Knower', does not have an external part. The One who 'Sees' and 'Knows' what you are saying, is called _Gnan_ (the Self).

**Questioner** : So Dada, will such stage come by itself?

**Dadashri** : You have to remain in that effort; you have to do all these things, don't You?

**Questioner** : Do I need to remain in only one _bhaav_ – intent-view?

**Dadashri** : Only in one _bhaav_ ; remain in only the 'Knower-Seer' _bhaav_ ( _Gnata_ - _Drashta_ ).

**Questioner** : At the moment it is difficult, that is what they say.

**Dadashri:** No, right now it is not possible, is it? At the moment we have to see outside. But if it is without attachment then it is called _Gnata_ - _Drashta_ (Knower-Seer) and if it is with attachment then it is called _indriya-gnan_ \- sense-oriented knowledge.

**Questioner:** If one becomes absorbed ( _tanmaya_ ) in it, does _indriya gnan_ come in?

**Dadashri:** No. Not even when one becomes _tanmaya_ (apparent body-mind form). It is called _indriya_ _gnan_ only if it is with attachment. One becomes absorbed in some places even if there is no attachment. But to become absorbed is not systematic and part of a rule. One will have to separate it again sometime. It, the 'Knower-Seer' state must remain continuous and constant. If you become absorbed ( _tanmaya, tanmayakar_ ) then Know that, that tuber ( _granthi_ ) exists within. That tuber will need to dissolve!

Thereafter, the whole _vyavahar_ (worldly interaction) becomes attachment free. It becomes _vitarag_ (without attachment or abhorrence) _vyavahar_. Many people's ( _Mahatmas'_ ) _vyavahar_ has become _vitarag_. But they remain in close contact with Me. They do the running around from far away; does one not need to remain in contact with Me?

##  Saw Infinite Gneyas in one Pudgal

Just as the _Vitarags_ 'Saw' infinite _gneyas_ in just one _gneya_ , similarly Dada too has Seen just one _gneya_ (that which is being known), just one _pudgal. Pudgal_ is just one by nature. Main natural _pudgal_ is created from _vishrasa_ (pure subatomic particles). The world is hundred percent made of pure _parmanus_ (subatomic particles).

So what did _Vitarags_ 'See' when they 'Saw' _pudgal_? They removed all the varieties that are in _pudgal_ from their _Gnan_ , and all this is just one _pudgal._ These varieties were created by people; by their intellect. So Lord Mahavir constantly 'Saw' only one _pudgal_ , nothing else. He did not 'See' any variety or anything else. Here, there are so many varities. Every shop has variety of _pudgals_.

The Lord 'Saw' only one _pudgal_ , He did not See that this is woman or man, this is gold, this is silver or brass, etc. So there is nothing to renounce or not to renounce. Everything is just one _pudgal_. He constantly Saw as just one _pudgal_ that is all. Nothing else. The Lord was very astute. Everyone around Him were fooled, and that is why they ended up wandering (from life to life). He was the only shrewd one who moved on (attained liberation). Only the one, who is wise will move on. Otherwise, the one who falls short will suffer. The one sticking spikes in his ears fell short, and the One whose ears were pierced with spikes moved on. How did he suffer the spikes whereby he moved on and the perpetrator got left behind? The answer is, He 'Saw' just one _pudgal_ ; _pudgal_ is hurting _pudgal._ He Saw just one _pudgal._

**Questioner** : One sticking the spike is a _pudgal_ , and this too is _pudgal_.

**Dadashri** : He was very astute.

##  This is Lord Mahavir's Method

**Questioner** : Lord Mahavir used to See his own _pudgal_. So, does Lord Mahavir dwell in the Self ( _Atmaramanta_ ) or did He 'See' the _pudgal_?

**Dadashri** : To 'See' and to 'Know' the _pudgal_ is itself being the Self ( _Atmaramanta_ ). Lord Mahavir steadied his Vision on one _pudgal_ only and stayed that way. Thereafter _kevalGnan_ arose.

**Questioner** : Ultimately, it should remain in one's awareness that this is what needs to be done.

**Dadashri** : Everyone ( _Mahatma_ ) has such awareness. They may not understand the word, but His awareness will be there somehow or other. _Atmaramanta_ (being the Self), _swaramanta_ ; it is all one and the same thing. _Swaramanta_ means that One is 'Seeing' only the _pudgal_.

**Questioner** : Dada that is how it remains for you, right?

**Dadashri** : It does a little weak for 'us'. All this that you are saying; you are saying in the state of _pararamanta_ (being in the non-Self). All day long, you remain only in _pararamanta._ You are in _Swaramanta_ through _nischaya_ (the Self), but your _nischaya_ is in the _vyavahar_ (worldly interaction). That is only how it is; nevertheless this is considered a very elevated state.

Lord Mahavir constantly 'Saw' his own _pudgal_. There are six elements in it, which he could constantly 'See'. He used to keep His 'Vision' in just one _pudgal._ Just one _pudgal_ ; nothing else. The nature of one _pudgal,_ is the nature of all _pudgal._ The nature is one and the same. I have given You the Lord's method. Now follow this method.

*****

#  [7]

#  Knower of the Seer-Knower

##  Gnayakbhaav: Mishrabhaav

Look, I am having the legs massaged and 'He' is 'Knowing' even that. What is going on, He 'Knows' even that.

**Questioner** : You just said that You are the 'Knower' of the one asking for a massage, 'Knower' of the one who is getting the massage, 'Knower' of the words that you speak too; so how does all that happen at the same time?

**Dadashri** : O ho ho! There is infinite energy! The Self can 'See' in every direction! These eyes can only see what is in front of them, whereas the Self can 'See' in all the ten directions. Can It not do so in every direction, every corner, every degree?

**Questioner** : But at a time, there can only be one right?

**Dadashri** : It is only one but It can tell everything. But to put it in words, different words are needed, and so that much time is needed. You cannot put together all the words at the same time. It calls for _syaadvaad –_ that which is acceptable to all.

**Questioner** : To see does not mean seeing with the eyes. It is the inner Vision ( _Darshan_ ). So all that we know, it is only the Self that Knows, but it is only so after we attain _Gnan_. Can people know also before attaining _Gnan_?

**Dadashri** : No, they will not know.

**Questioner** : Even before attaining _Gnan_ , whatever one knows, he knows through the attribute of the Self, does he not?

**Dadashri** : No. That is through the 'power' that has been stored.

**Questioner** : Now having attained the _Gnan_ , whenever any _gneya_ comes before me, I gain experience in Knowing them. One should gain the experience of the Self. Whatever is happening is the same thing, isn't it?

**Dadashri** : No, 'Seeing' and 'Knowing' is happening.

**Questioner** : Yes, but it is only our Self that is 'Seeing', is this what we are to understand?

**Dadashri** : Yes, Knower-Seer, _Gnayak_ (absolute Knower). _Gnayakbhaav_ (Knowing) means that the Self does not have to say anything. Before, the _Gnayakbhaav_ was not there at all. There was _mishrabhaav_ , in that there was a mixture of 'I am the doer' and 'I an the knower.'

**Questioner** : Now Knowing ( _jaanpanu_ ) has become pure.

**Dadashri** : Yes, pure Knowing.

**Questioner** : So this repeated experience of _jaanpanu_ – the state of knowing, that comes forth, is verily the experience of the Self, is it not?

**Dadashri** : Everything is of the Self. But in that, the one that shows knowledge ( _gnan_ ) of external things, that is the "power _chetan_ " ( _mishrachetan_ ).

**Questioner** : Dada, then what is the difference between the activity of 'Seeing-Knowing' of the main Self, and activity of 'seeing-knowing' of the _mishra-chetan_?

**Dadashri** : _Mishrachetan_ (self) can see the destructible ( _vinashi_ ). It can see only the destructible. And the Self can see both, the eternal ( _avinashi_ ) and the destructibe ( _vinashi_ ). It 'Sees' and 'Knows' both.

To 'us', the sun and the moon do not appear as if they have fallen. When 'we' look at the sun, it does not appear like its fallen down. 'We' see it in the same place as you do. But that is based on the changing destructible knowledge. That whole knowledge ( _gnan_ ) is destructible ( _vinashi_ ). It is not eternal Knowledge. No changes can happen in eternal Knowledge.

**Questioner** : The body sees with the eyes, the Self is in the _Gnata_ - _Drashta_ view (Knower-Seer) _bhaav_ ; it too is 'Seeing'. So what is the difference in the 'seeing' between the two visions?

**Dadashri** : What the Self 'Sees', it is a real _drashya_ (that which is being seen), and what these eyes see is a relative _drashya_. This is a relative _drashya_ and that one is the real _drashya_.

**Questioner** : What is the difference between them? What is the difference in the appearance? What is the difference in seeing?

**Dadashri** : A great difference. This is temporary ( _vinashi_ ) _drashya_. The Real ( _tattva_ ; pure element; the Self) will See only the real. And this relative, sees the temporary situations ( _avastha_ ) _._ All sense organ mediated knowledge ( _indriya_ _gnan_ ) is not considered _Gnan_. It is considered an illusion of the illusion. 'I know it' and 'I am doing it', are both there.

We have to search out the two, the Seer ( _Drashta_ ) and the Knower ( _Gnata_ ). The Knower-Seer is eternal ( _avinashi_ ). _Drashya_ (what is being seen) and _gneya_ (what is being known) are both temporary, not _drashya_ alone, but also _gneya_.

**Questioner** : The Knower of all this is the Self; then who is the Knower the Self?

**Dadashri** : There can never be a Knower of that (absolute) Knower.

**Questioner** : Yes. That is correct. There can never be.

**Dadashri** : There is a Knower of the one that does not know.

**Questioner** : That is because It is verily the Self, right! It is eternal; it is permanent.

**Dadashri** : Yes, therefore It is the Knower-Seer, and the rest is _gneya_ and _drashya_ in this world.

**Questioner** : The Self is the only 'Knower-Seer'.

**Dadashri** : He is the only 'Knower-Seer'. So then what else is there to look for? And the second question was correct, so who is the 'Knower' of that? It is the Self that 'Knows' the Self; it 'Knows' both (the Self and the non-Self).

**Questioner** : It is _swapara prakashak -_ illuminator of Self and the non-Self.

**Dadashri** : That question ends there. Did it come to an end or not?

##  Knower-Seer, Through Intellect or the Self

**Questioner** : I am trying to see as the 'knower-seer', it still feels that it is only the intellect that is seeing at that time.

**Dadashri** : You are correct. It is the indeed intellect that is seeing it. Knowing-Seeing begins where even the intellect cannot reach.

When you say 'I am trying to see as 'knower-seer', 'making the effort' means it is definitely the intellect. Now when you say it seems to you that the intellect is prevailing, it is the intellect that is seeing; but the one who is saying this, is _Gnan_. That is what You 'Saw'( _joyoo_ ). 'Seeing' means You did not 'See' is as the ' _Gnata -_ Knower _'_ , but You 'Saw' this as a ' _Drashta –_ Seer'. When can it be said that it is 'Seen' as a ' _Gnata_ - _Drashta'_? 'It feels that way', means it is Seen as _Drashta_ , and 'It comes in Knowing-Knowledge' means it was 'Known' as ' _Gnata_ '. Was it you that 'Saw' or did someone else come to 'see'?

**Questioner** : But I think that the one saying, 'It feels that way', is the indeed intellect talking; that is how it feels.

**Dadashri** : That is not the intellect. The intellect is involved in seeing, meaning the intellect sees from over there, and what it is seeing – You are the 'Knower' that, 'the intellect is indeed seeing, I am not seeing'. So the one that is 'Seeing' the intellect is You. So there, You are functioning as _Drashta –_ Seer. So 'we' (Dada and _Mahatmas_ ) have discovered who the Seer is. Meaning, this _Drashta_ is active for sure!

**Questioner** : But I cannot go beyond the intellect. So is (what I am seing) confined to seeing only through the intellect?

**Dadashri** : No, You have been able to go beyond the intellect for sure. But the intellect still continues to get nourishment. It is due to certain causes that the intellect gets nourished, which in due time will slowly diminish. You have gone beyond the intellect; otherwise the intellect would not let him you come here every day.

**Questioner** : Whenever the intellect interferes even a little, 'I' should tell her, 'Sit on the side. I am going to go to Dada; so let go'.

**Dadashri** : Yes, tell her to let go.

**Questioner** : The intellect does not interfere in coming to Dada; it comes with love ( _prem_ ).

**Dadashri** : 'With love' is indeed the sign that this _Gnan_ has gone beyond the intellect. This is the working of _pragnya_ – the liberating energy of the Self.

The intellect is seeing this, but you feel in the mind that 'I am seeing', that is the illusion. (The illusion makes you believe that) the knower-seer of all these _gneyas_ is not 'I', but rather the intellect. But who is the 'Knower-Seer' of the intellect? It is the _Atma -_ the Self. What do people say? I feel that, 'I am indeed the knower, and I am indeed the seer.' But what do You say? You say that you feel that, 'the intellect is seeing this'. Otherwise, people will say only that, 'I am seeing this' and 'I know this'. That itself is an illusion ( _bhranti_ ).

One is considered to be the real 'Knower' if 'Knowing' happens. That is the ' _Gnata_ - _Drashta'_! And indeed this does come into Your experience again and again, but such an exact clarification has to be made.

**Questioner** : How can one know that this 'knowing-seeing is of the intellect', and this Knowing-Seeing of the Self'?

**Dadashri** : The intellect's part is the seeing-knowing through the physical eyes;z what is heard by the ears, or what is tasted by the tongue; all that is the part of the intellect.

**Questioner** : So this is of the senses ( _indriyas_ ) but there are also other things going on within, like the biased views of the intellect that 'he is like this and he is like that'. Isn't it only the intellect that is seeing all that?

**Dadashri** : All this that is seen is only of the intellect. And the _Gnan_ - _Darshan_ of the Self of Knowing-Seeing is a different thing altogether. The One that 'Knows-Sees' _dravyas_ (eternal elements), that 'Knows' the phases of _dravya_ , 'Knows' their attributes; is the Self. Further, it also 'Knows' all the phases of the mind. The intellect is able to know the phases of the mind only to a certain limit; whereas the Self 'Knows' all the phases of the mind. It Knows the intellect; it Knows all the situations. It Knows the phases of the ego; it indeed Knows everything. Where the intellect does not reach, that is where Its 'Knowing' begins.

**Questioner** : How far can the intellect see?

**Dadashri** : Only up to a certain limit. It will work on worldly knowledge, worldly work.

**Questioner** : So you mentioned the Knowing-Seeing of the Self, does it know the _dravya_ (eternal element)?

**Dadashri** : Yes.

**Questioner** : How does it See the _dravya_ , the attributes of _dravya_ and the phases of _dravya_? What all in it, is it able to See? Please give its exact example.

**Dadashri** : It 'Knows' whose attributes they are. Whether they are the attributes of the _pudgal_ or of the _Chetan_ (the Self)? Then it also 'Knows' all other attributes. It 'Knows' what the attributes of space ( _akaash_ ) are. Then, it 'Knows' what the attributes of the time ( _kaad_ ) are.

**Questioner** : Please say something about the attributes. What are the attributes of time? What are the attributes of space?

**Dadashri** : That would be the reward of knowing the forty-five _Agams_ (Jain Scriptures), they are available to understand all these attributes. To uderstand the attributes of times, space.

**Questioner** : If the activity of the Self of 'Knowing' ( _Gnankriya_ ) and 'Seeing' ( _Darshankriya_ ) is for the purpose of Knowing-Seeing such things, then presently we all do not have such 'Seeing' and 'Knowing' the _dravyas_ (elements) _,_ do we?

**Dadashri** : There is no point in hurrying for that; is there? Just because you are not Knowing-Seeing in this manner does not mean that you have to drink bed-bug medicine (kill yourself), does it?

**Questioner** : So then what is there until then? Does that mean that Seeing of this ' _Gnan-Darshan'_ is not there?

**Dadashri** : If _raag_ - _dwesh_ (attachment-abhorrence) do not happen, then Know that You have attained the _Gnan_ ; Know that Your _Gnan_ is good. It is decided that worldly life ( _sansar_ ) is bound when _raag-dwesh_ happen. Your 'train' (to _moksha_ ), Rajdhani Express, is running for sure if _raag_ - _dwesh_ do not happen, You do not even have to check to see whether it is running or not.

When the train is running, two types of results are seen. Many trees will appear to be going this way. When your train is going in this direction, many trees will appear to be going this way. Many will appear as if they are moving along with us. There is some reason behind it, isn't there?

**Questioner** : Those close to the train seem to be running in the direction against the train, and the ones in the distance appear to be alongside.

**Dadashri** : But why is that? Intellect will understand that these are close and those are far.

##  Seer of Pudgal is Pragnya

**Questioner** : This 'Seeing' of all the things of the _pudgal_ , is it the activity of the intellect ( _buddhikriya_ ) or the activity of _Gnan_ ( _Gnankriya_ )?

**Dadashri** : If it goes in this direction, it goes under _pragnya,_ does it not? You can know a little through the activity of the intellect and the ego, but otherwise, without _pragnya_ there is no Understanding.

You should remain as an apprentice. It is not probationary.

**Questioner** : So all the activity of 'Seeing' that goes on after attaining _Gnan_ , the separation from the body that remains for _Mahatmas_ ; the awareness of _Shuddhatma_ that is established, is that happening through _pragnya_?

**Dadashri** : Everything happens through _pragnya_ _shakti_ (liberating energy of the Self). _Pragnya_ _shakti_ is up to a certain limit, it is there until there exist files to be settled. When the files are all settled, the Self (absolute Self) is the Knower.

**Questioner** : It means that to 'See' through the activity of _Gnan_ is very far away, isn't it?

**Dadashri** : That _Gnankriya_ indeed is the activity of _pragnya shakti_. Right now that _Gnankriya_ (activity of the _Gnan_ ) has arisen. After all the files have been settled, it will be _Vignankriya_ (activity of Science of the Self).

##  That Which Shows is Pragnya

_Pragnya_ itself 'Sees' till the end. _Pragnya_ indeed 'shows' You everything.

**Questioner** : It shows what I did when I was ten years old. It shows the 'pictures' of when I was twelve years old, like a movie. So does _pragnya_ show that film?

**Dadashri** : _Pragnya_ , means it is the Self that is Showing all that. But, ultimately _pragnya_ comes to an end. As long as there is _pragnya_ , it is the state of _Shuddhatma_ and the Self is _Paramatma_ – the absolute Self. In fact they are one and the same, but only after coming into this ( _Shuddhatma_ ), will it become the other ( _Paramatma_ ).

**Questioner** : Yesterday, when he (the self) was crying, He (the Self) could 'See' that 'Chandubhai' is crying, and at the same time, ' _Dada Bhagwan Na Aseem Jai Jaikar Ho_ ', was going on from within. So then who was it that was 'Seeing' Chandubhai and who was singing ' _Aseem Jai Jaikar Ho'_?

**Dadashri** : That is a 'record' ( _Dada Bhagwan Na Aseem Jai Jaikar Ho_ ) that is indeed continuing within.

**Questioner** : So, that 'original tape' continues on the inside?

**Dadashri** : It is going on some time for sure. So the one who speaks-sings that is separate, and He is the one 'Seeing' Chandubhai.

**Questioner** : Is the Seer of Chandubhai the _Shuddhatma_?

**Dadashri** : The seer of this that Chandubhai is doing, is the intellect.

**Questioner** : If the intellect is seeing, then how is one considered to be the _Gnata-Drashta_?

**Dadashri** : _Gnata-Drashta_ -'Knower-Seer' is the 'at a time' Knower of all these, who are seeing all these. The _Gnata-Drashta_ Knows 'at a time' the one who feels (like crying) and that which is spoken ( _Aseem Jai Jaikar_ ).

**Questioner** : But is it _Shuddhatma_ that 'Sees' what the intellect is doing?

**Dadashri** : It Sees what the intellect is doing, It Sees what the mind is doing, It Sees what the speech is doing, It Sees what the ego is doing, It Sees all that.

**Questioner** : It Sees through 'Knowing and Seeing', does it not? Is the one Seeing the Knower-Seer, or not?

**Dadashri** : Yes. That is indeed the Self.

**Questioner** : And the one seeing Chandubhai, is it the intellect?

**Dadashri** : That is the intellect that is seeing and the Self is 'Seeing' the intellect. The Self is the 'Knower' of what the intellect is doing, what the mind is doing, what the ego is doing and all that. Beyond the Self ( _Atma_ ) remains the absolute Self ( _Paramatma_ ). One who becomes the Self, is headed towards _Paramatma_ ; and the One who becomes _Paramatma_ , will attain _kevalGnan_ (absolute Knowledge). The One who attains _kevalGnan_ , has become _Paramatma_. He has become "full" (complete and absolute); he has become worthy of _nirvana pada_ –the state of ultimate liberation. Therefore, all day long, You should maintain the applied awareness ( _upayoga_ ) of 'Knowing and Seeing'.

**Questioner** : So Dada, is the _Shuddhatma_ state followed by the _Paramatma_ state?

**Dadashri** : _Shuddhatma_ itself is _Paramatma_ , but _kevalGnan_ has not happened in this. When _kevalGnan_ happens to the _Shuddhatma_ , it will become _Paramatma_!

##  Seer of Even the seer

**Questioner** : You say that when you give the _Gnan_ , you separate the Self and the body complex (non-Self); who is the 'Seer' of the one separating the two?

**Dadashri** : There are two things that are seers. One is _pragnya_ , and after the work of _pragnya_ is done, it is the Self. The Self remains as the _Gnayak_ (absolute Knower). Starting from _pragnya_ to the (absolute) Self is the 'Seer' ( _jonaar_ ). When work of _pragnya_ ends, the Self itself becomes the _Gnayak_ (absolute Knower).

**Questioner** : The state of the Self is like that of a mirror. The mirror does not have to come out to see. Everything is reflected in the mirror. Is everything similarly reflected in the state of the Self?

**Dadashri** : That is reflected, is separate and this is the absolute Knower – _Gnayak._ So who is the 'Knower' right now? It is that _pragnya shakti_ (liberating energy of the Self). Yes, because it is _karyakari_ – 'doing the work' of the Self. The main Self is not _karyakari_. _Pragnya_ is the _karyakari shakti –_ active _Gnan_ energy, that has arisen as long as this worldly life (files) remains. That _pragnya_ will wind up all the work, and go to _moksha_.

**Questioner** : So this _pragnya_ is there to help one get to the doorstep of _moksha._

**Dadashri** : Not just to the doorstep, it will sit You in all the way to _moksha._ Yes, the one that helps attain _purnahuti –_ completion; that is _pragnya._

There are tremendous energies. Energies that are such that no matter what kind of difficulties arise, the difficulties themselves, will get scared. When they see how much the energy has arisen, the difficulties get scared.

**Questioner** : To whatever extent it is 'Seen', that much does not touch (affect) me, but if I become engrossed in it, then I am affected by it.

**Dadashri** : 'See' whatever is 'seen', and do _pratikraman_ for that which was not 'Seen'.

**Questioner** : When I sit down now to see whatever happened today, then I can see everthing, and at the time I can also see that I am sitting to see what happened in the past.

**Dadashri** : Yes, then what?

**Questioner** : So what is this? There is even a 'seer' of the one who is 'seeing'.

**Dadashri** : That is the ultimate Seer, and that indeed is who You are. There is no 'Seer' of that 'Seer' (absolute Seer). Whereas there is the ultimate 'Seer' of the seer that is seeing this.

**Questioner** : So there is a Seer over the seer?

**Dadashri** : There indeed has to be a Seer over this seer.

**Questioner** : Is there a Seer even over that Seer?

**Dadashri** : There is no (other) Seer over this Seer. There is no Seer over the Seer. The true Seer is indeed the (absolute) Self.

**Questioner** : So the 'seer' that was seeing the activities of the whole day, then is there a 'Seer' of that 'seer' too? So who is the first 'seer'?

**Dadashri** : Call it _upadaan_ (spiritual readiness and receptivity), call it the intellect or call it the ego. And there is a 'Seer' of even that.

**Questioner** : Who is that?

**Dadashri** : That is the Self. It 'Knows' even the 'seer'.

**Questioner** : So where does _pragnya_ come into this?

**Dadashri** : That very thing is _pragnya_ , is it not? The main Self ( _muda Atma_ ) is the main Self.

**Questioner** : So is seer of the whole day called the ego? Or is it called _upadaan_?

**Dadashri** : Intellect, ego, _ugnya_ _shakti_ (energy of ignorance).

**Questioner** : That is correct. Dada, when I sit down to 'See' that of the morning, then I miss Seeing the present, I am Seeing of the past, now.

**Dadashri** : But You are 'Seeing', are You not? That itself is the Self that You are. So then what remains to be seen?

**Questioner** : Dada, is the Self considered _swapara prakashak_ (illuminator of the Self and the non-Self) because of this? Does It illuminate Itself also?

**Dadashri** : What else? There is a Seer over the seer. The Seer over the seer is the Self, it is called _Gnata_ (Knower) and all the things to be known are called _gneya_. And when Seer is the _Drashta_ , then this is _drashya_ (that which is being seen).

**Questioner** : If there is a Seer over the seer, so then what is the function of the main Self ( _muda Atma_ ) in this?

**Dadashri** : All these people they indeed see, do they not? The whole world sees and knows, does it not? If you tell them 'you do not know and see', they will ask 'so then what are we doing right now?' One saw the entire Fort area (areas of interest in Mumbai and Delhi), one sees this and sees that. But even that seer has to be Known. There is a Knower of that seer.

**Questioner** : This seer has to be Known?

**Dadashri** : The One Seeing this seer, and the One that 'Knows' this knower, such is the main Self.

**Questioner** : Currrently we call that _pragnya._

**Dadashri** : Yes, _pragnya_.

**Questioner** : So then what is the function of the main Self beyond that?

**Dadashri** : No, there is nothing beyond that. That is it; it ends there. There is no give or take for anyone there; there is no one to help or to be helped. Nothing to relinquish, such are these elements ( _tattva_ )! They are immiscible ( _tankotkirna_ ) by nature. They have never ever become one, they remain separate. Just as when you put oil and water together, they remain separate.

##  Whose Upyoga is in the Middle?

**Questioner** : Once, in the satsang you had mentioned that there is a one stage that one is _tanmayakar_ (engrossed, become the body-mind form) in what Chandubhai is doing. Another stage is such that Chandubhai is separate and the Self is separate. So the doer is separate and the Self is separate. And the third stage, the top stage is such that One even 'Sees' what Chandubhai is doing, that is, the Self 'Sees' what Chandubhai is doing. Please explain that?

**Dadashri** : What is there to understand?

**Questioner** : What is that stage?

**Dadashri** : Its like this, whatever Seeing is being 'done', it should be natural and spontaneous ( _sahaj_ ). When one has to 'do' the activity of 'Seeing', one has to be (subtle effort) the 'Knower-Seer', so then, there is the Knower of this one. He has to 'remain' the 'Knower-Seer'. So he becomes a manager. But there is still a 'boss' over the manager. The ultimate 'boss' does not have to make the effort to 'See'; the Seeing is natural ( _sahaj_ ).

**Questioner** : So who is the one who has to be the 'Knower-Seer', and who is the One who 'Sees' even Him?

**Dadashri** : The main Self is 'Seeing' even Him; that is the main one. The one where the 'Seeing' has to be 'done', that middle part is the _upayoga –_ the active applied awareness. So the 'Seer' of that, is in the ultimate stage. We are sitting here like this, if we put a mirror here, will we not see ourselves in it right away?

**Questioner** : Yes.

**Dadashri** : Does one have to make the effort to 'see'?

**Questioner** : No.

**Dadashri** : That is how it is reflected in the Self; the entire world is reflected within the Self.

**Questioner** : Who is that 'middle' one, Dada?

**Dadashri** : _Upyoga_ ( applied awakened awareness).

**Questioner** : But whose _upyoga_ is it?

**Dadashri** : It is of that _pragnya_ (liberating energy of the Self). Once it comes into the _upyoga_ of _pragnya_ , it is enough. Beyond this, there is not much need for us; our college is up to this point.

##  Follow the Five Agnas to Attain the Absolute State

**Questioner** : Whatever I see and know, that is one thing, and on the other side I want to become the Knower-Seer. So this knower-seer and that Knower-Seer; are they different?

**Dadashri** : Yes, that is correct.

**Questioner** : So how does this knower-seer transfer into that Knower-Seer?

**Dadashri** : The one who is the Knower of all the activity of this knower-seer, is this _Gnata-Drashta._

**Questioner** : So in short, this knower-seer is the ego, and the Knower of the activity of the ego...

**Dadashri** : What I is doing, what the mind is doing, what the intellect is doing.

**Questioner** : That is correct. What you are saying is correct. But even now I experience that this is how it is happening. That which is called as _gneya_. Now, even for this Knower of the mind-speech-body and ego - we say that the main Atma (absolute Self) is not the 'Knower-Seer'. The (absolute) Self is far away from it.

**Dadashri** : This is not Its subject ( _vishaya_ ). The subject of sense-based vision ( _indriya drashti_ ) is not It's subject.

**Questioner** : Is the 'Knowing-Seeing' energy only that of the main Self ( _muda Atma_ )?

**Dadashri** : Yes. But right now there is this medium of _pragnya_ in the middle.

**Questioner** : Right now it 'Knows' through a medium, but is it the Self that Knows this?

**Dadashri** : Then, who else knows that? But It Knows through the medium of _pragnya_.

**Questioner** : So does the 'Knowing' not reach It at all?

**Dadashri** : The main Self has nothing to with it. It is _vitarag_ (absolutely free from any evidence of the non-Self). And what is this that is happening, is Known by the medium that has arisen called _pragnya_ _Shakti_.

**Questioner** : So that Knower ( _Gnata_ ) is not affected at all by this _gneya_?

**Dadashri** : Not at all. It is not affected by any _sang_ (company and association). Nothing touches it. It is _nirleyp_ (unanointed, unsmeared) from any _bhaav_ , _asang_ (without any association) from _sang_.

**Questioner** : So is attribute of 'Knowing-Seeing' is Its state ( _swadharma_ ), is it?

**Dadashri** : Attribute of 'Knowing-Seeing' is the only nature. If there is a light that is turned on here, it will simply 'see'. If there was life in that light, it will simply continue to see.

**Questioner** : Is the Self used in it?

**Dadashri** : Is it possible not to? You will 'Know' the thoughts that arise, would You not Know the anger that arises within?

**Questioner** : Yes.

**Dadashri** : Yes. But it does not reach the ultimate (absolute Self). It reaches _pragnya_ , because this is an intermediate _Gnan_ (Knowledge), that other is completely and absolutely 'Knower-Seer'!

**Questioner** : Yes, it does not reach all the way. That is what it is, is it not? That is exactly my point, that how can it reach all the way?

**Dadashri** : It reaches the main Self only after coming into _pragnya_.

**Questioner** : What is the tool ( _sadhan_ ) for it?

**Dadashri** : Five Agna is verily the biggest and main tool. First it is seen through the senses ( _indriya gnan_ ). Then it is seen through the knowledge of the intellect ( _buddhignan_ ). Thereafter, it is Seen through the _pragnya_ , and then through the (absolute) Self.

**Questioner** : But the main Self that is the Knower ( _Gnata_ ) – what is the Its relationship, in the _Gnata_ (Knower) and the _gneya_ (that which is being known)?

**Dadashri** : When the _Gnan_ 'Sees' the _gneya_ , it becomes _gnanakar_ (becomes the form of the object being known).

**Questioner** : But this Knower, the main Self ( _muda Atma_ ), it does not become _gneyakar_ (become the form of that being known) at all, does it?

**Dadashri** : It has nothing to do at all with that. This _pragnya_ is there all the way. And when _kevalGnan_ happens, they become one. That is when _pragnya_ goes away.

**Questioner** : So the Self is of use only when _kevalGnan_ happens, not until then?

**Dadashri** : No. Until then It does not become the main Knower-Seer. We (all _Mahatmas_ ) do not even have that need. _KevalGnan_ comes on its own. You do not even have to go ask for it. Just as you buy a ticket for Vadodara and sit in the train to Vadodara, Vadodara station will come on its own; this is the same. All You need to do is sit in the train. Sit in it and follow the Agnas that You are not to get off at any other station. Even if this gentleman tells you to, tell him, 'I am not to get off here; let me come get back on the train.' Someone will tell you, 'Come, that canteen is very good.' Even then You should say 'no!'

**Questioner** : What if one ends up going to the canteen despite following the five Agnas properly?

**Dadashri** : Then there is no problem. If He is following the five Agnas, then no matter where he goes, there is no bondage for Him. But the One following the five Agnas will not get off at any station, will He?

##  The Self Means the Light of Absolute Knowledge

**Questioner** : The Self means _Gnan_. _Gnan_ means Light ( _prakash_ ), there is nothing at all besides the Light. Only the Light, only Light, only Light! And only Light means no other circumstance. Nothing, only the Light! So then, does only the _Gnayak bhaav_ (Absolute Knowership ) remain?

**Dadashri** : _Gnayak bhaav_. The continuous state of the Knower-Seer and that bliss ( _anand_ ). 'He' does not need anything else. There is nothing to 'do' in the Knowing-Seeing. It is all illuminated-reflected within. There is no kind of activity; _akriya_ – activity free. One gets tired when he does any activity; he has to lie down, he has to take a nap.

**Questioner** : Before, in the ignorant state, my vision used to remain on the _pudgal_ which does not have the attribute of knowing and seeing at all. Now that you have given the _Gnan_ , if I apply My Vision on the One that has the energy of Knowing and Seeing, then My Vision becomes still.

**Dadashri** : That is why it became still, and even in this non-still ( _asthira_ ) there is the activity of knowing-seeing, but that activity is the one of knowing-seeing circumstances. The activity of Knowing-Seeing ( _jaanvu-jovoo_ ) is only in the Self. But the Self has non-circumstance ( _asanyogik_ ) related activity, whereas that other is circumstance ( _sanyogik_ ) related activity. The activity of knowing–seeing referred to here is, 'This is a tree. These are the leaves. This is a cow. This is a buffalo. Etc.' People say this don't they? And people believe that to be the Self. This activity of knowing-seeing; there is no _Chetan_ (Knower-Seer Self) at all in that.

One would then ask, 'the how does everything work here? How can anything work without _Chetan_?' The answer is, 'In the presence of the Self ( _Chetan_ ), a power- _chetan_ (charged self) arises'.

**Questioner** : You said that this seeing-knowing of trees, leaves etc. is the activity of the power _chetan_. So this activity of seeing-knowing and all the _gneyas_ that become illuminated in the Light of the Self; is it the same thing or are they different?

**Dadashri** : They get illuminated-reflected within, in the Light of the Self; means there are no words there. The words are present only to the point of bringing into the Light ( _prakash_ ) wherever 'Knowing-Seeing' is happening. The words then depart to their rightful place.

**Questioner** : The Self is said to be _kevalGnan swarupa_ (absolute Knowledge state), who attains the _kevalGnan_ when that _kevalGnan_ happens?

**Dadashri** : It is indeed the Self that attains it.

**Questioner** : But the Self is indeed _kevalGnan swarupa_ is it not?

**Dadashri** : It is definitely _kevalGnan swarupa_ , but the clouds have to move away, do they not? That is what it becomes as the clouds move away. When the full sun is visible, who is it visible to?

**Questioner** : To the seer. the sun and the clouds meaning, the one who has the veils of the clouds.

**Dadashri** : Yes, but it is to the seer! But the 'Knower' and the 'Seer' are both the same thing.

**Questioner** : So, the Knower and the Seer, they are both one and the same?

**Dadashri** : Yes. The Self Knows the Self ( _swa_ ) as well as the non-Self ( _para_ ). It Knows the Self, as to who the Knower is, who is the Self.

The Known thing is the Self Itself. The Self Knows the Self. The Self Knows the Self as well as the non-Self. When the 'clouds' move away, then the Self can See Its whole Self (absolute Self). That is called _kevalGnan_.

JAI SAT CHIT ANAND

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