[GOOGLE LOGO MUSIC PLAYING]
JOSH LANZET: Let's bring up
the co-creator and showrunner
of "Snowfall."
Dave Andron, come on up.
[APPLAUSE]
[MUSIC - RONNIE HUDSON
AND THE STREET PEOPLE,
"WEST COAST POPLOCK"]
Listen to that.
Good to have you.
DAVE ANDRON: Thanks.
Good to see you.
JOSH LANZET: Oh, my gosh.
I just want to ask everyone I
see, like, where's my money?
That's how I feel
after watching this.
[LAUGHTER]
I'm so excited to be--
I've seen, I love the show.
I've seen it, big fan.
I want to start talking
about you first.
A lot of writers that I've
spoken to, that I've seen,
start as a writer's
assistant for too many years
and then end up
becoming a writer.
For lack of a better term, you
kind of skipped a little bit,
skipped some steps and went
directly into being a writer?
DAVE ANDRON: Yeah.
I mean, by the grace
of kind of one person,
I really got to
skip those steps.
I will say that one of the nice
things about being a writer
is you have the ability to kind
of produce your own material,
and you don't have to
rely on anybody else.
Right?
As an actor, you need a script.
As a director, you need a ton
of things, including money.
But as a writer, if you have
a computer and some time,
you can bang out
50 pages that can
change your life in a hurry.
And so I did that.
I moved down here.
I studied fiction in college,
thought I might go that route,
decided that wasn't for me,
and moved out here and wrote.
I spent the better
part of two years
really writing one
script, initially.
And it took a while to figure
out how to do it and whatever.
Because I hadn't taken classes.
I hadn't kind of
done any of that.
And I worked odd jobs.
But ended up getting it
into the hands of a guy
named Graham Yoast,
through a guy
who knew a guy who
knew a guy who had
created a show that was on NBC.
And he gave me a job
as a staff writer
on that show, which is bananas.
And I think it rarely
happens that way.
But it was kind of having
a piece of material
that people were willing to keep
handing on to somebody else,
to be, like, here,
you should read this.
You should read this.
JOSH LANZET: Was it
intimidating coming in,
not having been a
writer's assistant, just
jumping in in the deep end?
DAVE ANDRON: I guess
it should have been.
I think, in all
things probably, it
helps to have some confidence
that's probably unwarranted.
[LAUGHTER]
I don't know.
JOSH LANZET: That's my life.
DAVE ANDRON: So I just
kind of felt like--
came in and just pretended
like I knew what time it was.
And it worked out OK.
JOSH LANZET: Well, that's good.
And I know that the first show
that you got on was "Raines,"
I think.
For those that
don't know, this was
a show about a detective
partnering with ghosts
to solve crimes.
DAVE ANDRON: It wasn't
technically ghosts--
JOSH LANZET: I'm sorry.
DAVE ANDRON: --I will
clarify, which is maybe part
of why that show didn't work.
[LAUGHTER]
I will say, in the defense
of Graham, the idea
being when somebody is murdered,
it's very rarely random.
Usually, they know the
person who's responsible.
And so the idea
was a detective who
was losing his mind,
who was essentially
hallucinating his victims.
Such that, if he could
get to know them better
throughout the course
of the episode,
he would find out why somebody
would have wanted them dead.
Right?
So in the first episode,
he initially shows up
and there's a girl
who's been murdered.
And she's this very sweet,
kind of innocent girl.
And then he finds out
at a certain point
she's a prostitute,
and all of a sudden,
she's made up and smoking.
And she's, like, great,
now I'm a hooker.
But it was all about a
guy who was kind of losing
his shit a little bit.
JOSH LANZET: Makes sense
they chose Jeff Goldblum.
DAVE ANDRON: Yes, so--
JOSH LANZET: Yeah.
DAVE ANDRON: --Jeff Goldblum.
JOSH LANZET: He's amazing.
DAVE ANDRON: He's the
perfect guy to play it.
Because you always
watch that guy
and you feel like something
else is going on in his brain.
JOSH LANZET: Sure.
DAVE ANDRON: So
he was a great guy
to look like he was losing it.
JOSH LANZET: So I imagine,
I mean, I don't necessarily
see connections with
that topic in "Snowfall,"
but were there any lessons that
you learned in that writers'
room or from anyone in that
room that you kind of carried
through your career?
DAVE ANDRON: Man, so many.
as you point out, kind of
coming in and not knowing just
everything, from how
a writers' room works
to the mechanics of a script.
I was able to write an
episode that got produced.
So being on set and the
experience of learning,
it's one way in your
head, on the page.
And then you get out on the set.
And all of a sudden,
it's like all the things
you kind of thought were
maybe going to happen
aren't quite happening.
And you've got to
figure that out.
So everything from storytelling
to production stuff,
there was kind of
unlimited lessons learned.
JOSH LANZET: Wow.
And I would imagine
it doesn't always
happen that, in your first
show, as a new writer,
that you would get
your own episode.
DAVE ANDRON: Yeah.
I think that was just continuing
to kind of push and be in there
and throwing ideas out.
JOSH LANZET: Yeah.
DAVE ANDRON: Again,
yeah, I can't really
speak to how that
exactly happened.
But I was lucky.
JOSH LANZET: Sure.
And I think that luck continued.
Because I know your next project
was the "Knight Rider" remake.
DAVE ANDRON: You could
say it continued,
or you could say it detoured.
JOSH LANZET: I like
"Knight Rider."
I like KITT.
I'm a big fan of
William Daniels.
I'm into it.
DAVE ANDRON: Thanks.
JOSH LANZET: So I know
you developed that.
Even though you
developed, I believe
they brought in Gary Scott
Thompson to show run.
DAVE ANDRON: Yeah.
There was a strange
process where
I'd gone in with
a set of producers
to pitch another idea that NBC
was kind of, like, we're not
going to do that.
And then called
us back and said,
we want to reboot
"Knight Rider."
Do you guys want to
take a swing at it?
And at the time, this was
kind of right after "Raines,"
and I felt it was amazing they
were even asking us to do that.
And I felt like this is
something they were going
to make and put on the air.
So we dove into it.
And I thought we
kind of cracked it.
And we did a two hour pilot.
The writers' strike
happened kind of right
as we were locking that script,
which meant no rewrites.
So the process of production
was kind of crazy and difficult.
But we came through it.
And they picked up the series.
And then, because
I had only worked
on one show for one
year as a staff writer,
they were, like,
we're going to bring
in a guy we've got
a deal with to help
you run what's going to be a
pretty big show for you to take
on.
And at the time, I was,
like, well, that's great.
I mean, that they
believe in this guy--
it must be the right thing.
Clearly, there's a
lot that I don't know.
And then looking back, I
should have at that point
either kind of said,
look, I'll run it.
I'm going to run it and
do a thing I want to do,
or I should've walked away.
JOSH LANZET: Do you feel like--
and I hear what you're
saying, that maybe it
wasn't the best situation.
Did you still learn, I
guess, watching that,
how you might show
run in the future?
DAVE ANDRON: Yeah.
I mean, I think you
probably learn as much
from the experiences where you
watch somebody do something
really well as you do when you
watch somebody do something
really poorly.
JOSH LANZET: Sure.
DAVE ANDRON: And so even if
the lessons that are learned
are, oh, this is how
not to do things,
those are important
things to learn, too.
JOSH LANZET: I try and serve
that role for a lot of people
in my day-to-day.
DAVE ANDRON: Yeah.
I probably serve that
lesson for people now.
I hope not but--
JOSH LANZET: And then, jumping
a couple of shows later,
you jump to this
really tiny show--
I'm sure no one's heard of
it-- called "Justified,"
which just so happened to
be nominated for eight Emmys
and won multiple,
such a tiny show.
What was the journey like
getting from "Knight Rider"
to what is, I think it's
safe to say-- maybe I'm
editorializing-- what
is considered probably
one of the best television
shows in the past 20 years?
DAVE ANDRON: Man, I hope so.
That's a really
nice thing to think.
Yeah.
I mean, look, that goes
back to Graham Yoast.
He was the guy who
gave me my first job.
And then I did "Knight
Rider" and wrote
a bunch of other pilots
and was actually working
on another show when
he called and was,
like, hey, I've got another
thing that's going to go.
What are you doing?
And unfortunately, when
it first started out,
I was on this other show.
But then, thankfully, I
guess within a few months,
that show was canceled.
And that was the show I was
working on the staff of.
And so I jumped over onto
"Justified" about halfway
through the first
season and just
ended up writing a couple
of episodes for that.
But again, it goes
back to Graham,
the guy who gave me
my first job and then
who had created "Justified."
It's just lucky that that guy
came into my life, really.
JOSH LANZET: Yeah.
I don't usually
love this phrase.
But it seems like he's
your spirit animal.
DAVE ANDRON: If I
have a spirit animal,
he's my Canadian spirit animal.
JOSH LANZET: Which is fair.
It seems like also "Justified"
was the first show that you
spent multiple seasons on.
You stayed for a while.
DAVE ANDRON: Yeah.
I mean, I felt like over the
course of those three shows
I'd kind of worked on before
that and writing pilots,
I thought I had kind of
figured some things out.
And then spending six years
on a really good show,
I think, kind of
rewrote a lot of what
I thought I already knew.
But that was the experience
where I felt like, OK,
I really cut my teeth.
I really understand what this is
and working with really, really
high class actors
across the board
and producing something that
really was about something.
It was about the heartland and
about this part of our country
that is forgotten.
It had this kind of
great spine and scope.
But it also had a kind of really
high entertainment value, which
is something Elmore Leonard does
in all of his books, really.
But that was by far the
best experience I'd had
up until that point.
JOSH LANZET: And that also
kind of continued your run of,
I guess, what one might call
traditional leading men,
where you had Timothy Olyphant
right after Jeff-- well, I
don't if you'd call Jeff
Goldblum traditional--
but really booming leading men.
DAVE ANDRON: Yeah.
And that show ended up
really becoming a two-hander.
There was Tim, and then
there was Walton Goggins,
who played Boyd.
And I don't know--
this is a thing that's
now out there, I guess.
But the original pilot
had Raylan killing Boyd.
And that was supposed
to be kind of a one off
and it was supposed to be done.
And then they shot the
pilot and tested it.
And everybody who kind of
watched it was, like, yeah.
We love the guy with the hat.
But you're going
to kill that dude?
What, are you crazy?
And FX and Graham kind
of quickly agreed.
And so they reshot the
ending and kept Boyd alive.
And then that became the
backbone of the show.
I don't know what
"Justified" would have been,
really, without Boyd.
And you could see
how that show changed
over the course of
the first season,
where it had a very kind
of procedural-- you know,
they pitched it to
FX initially as there
was a showdown of the week.
And then, I think, over the
course of that first season,
if you watched that
show, you watch
it go from a
showdown of the week
to something that ends up
being much more serialized.
And then the second
season really
embraced that with the
creation of the Bennett family
and Mags and the kids.
And that was when
the show, I feel,
really kind of found
its footing and became
what it wanted to become.
JOSH LANZET: And were there
any kind of bigger lessons
that you took from
"Justified" moving forward?
Anything come to
mind as a big lesson
that you learned on that show?
DAVE ANDRON: Man,
there were so many.
It's hard to kind of
single out one thing.
I think a certain kind of
economy of storytelling.
JOSH LANZET: Interesting.
DAVE ANDRON: I think
even getting out of--
in your first job, you take--
or I was willing to take--
whatever I could.
And I liked "Raines."
I think "Raines" is a show
that done in another way
with some tweaks could
have found an audience
and lived a little longer.
But it was also very procedural,
and it was very networky,
as was "Knight Rider," as
was the thing I worked on
after that.
And I had written
pilots for networks
over those three or four years.
And this was the
first time, I was
on a cable drama that was
serialized where we could
get away from a little more of
the formulaic, kind of network
way of doing things and
embrace a different style
of storytelling, where
the guy in the white hat
didn't always have to win.
It didn't have to be
wrapped up in that episode.
I think just doing six seasons
of a big, serialized show
was probably the
biggest take away.
JOSH LANZET: Yeah.
That's awesome.
And it seems like you've
chased that down a little bit,
going in that similar
path with "Snowfall."
DAVE ANDRON: Yeah.
I mean, I think that, while
the worlds are so different,
if you look at the
tone of "Justified"
and the tone of "Snowfall,"
there are similarities.
I mean, it's obviously about a
very specific time and place,
a very difficult
moment in our history.
But we still had to
lean into the idea
that it has to be entertaining.
We can't glamorize the drug use.
But people still have to be able
to watch it and be on the ride.
And then, of course, there will
be moments of horrible violence
or addiction in those things.
But there's got to
be the sugar that
makes the medicine go down.
JOSH LANZET: Sure.
And so talk to us
a little bit, I
mean, moving into "Snowfall,"
the premier show we're
talking about.
So I believe it was created by
Eric Amadio, John Singleton.
It was being developed
for Showtime.
Talk me through where
you came into the picture
and how that all came to be.
DAVE ANDRON: Yeah.
They had set it up
initially at Showtime.
I think the initial
idea was Eric's.
And then he got paired up with
John, for obvious reasons.
Showtime set it up.
And they couldn't figure
out what the show should be,
or at least in Showtime's eyes.
And there are a lot of reasons
shows don't move forward.
So Showtime jettisoned
it at that point.
FX picked it up, and they
started to kind of redevelop it
with FX.
And I think they
had worked on it
for six months, a year
with FX before I'd come on,
which was when
"Justified" ended.
And FX called to say they had
a few projects at that point
they were excited about and sent
me a couple things to look at,
which I thought
that was wonderful.
FX is, by far, the
best place I've worked.
And I'm hoping I can just work
there the rest of my career.
But I read that script.
And while it wasn't
there yet, could see
that this was a world that--
it felt like a story that
was important to tell.
I was excited by the
prospect of working with John
and the prospect
of staying with FX.
So I kind of jumped in,
threw my hat in the ring,
and met with those guys.
And we all got along.
And so I got in the
process of trying
to figure it out with them.
JOSH LANZET: So once you worked
with them, you cracked it.
You shot the pilot.
From what I understand, that
did not go as well as hoped.
DAVE ANDRON: Yeah.
I mean, we put together a
small, a mini-writers' room
before so we could start looking
ahead into the series and then,
kind of working backwards to
set things up in the pilot.
So we did some work
on the pilot script,
and looked ahead a little bit,
and then put all that on hold
to go cast and shoot the pilot.
And it just didn't work.
There were a lot of reasons
why things kind of don't work.
I mean, there have
been pilots that have
been reshot over the years.
The "Game of Thrones" being
the most obvious example
I can think of.
But for any number of
reasons it didn't quite work.
I think there were
script problems still.
Some of it was the
way it was shot.
But when we tested it,
after all was said and done,
the concept still
tested through the roof.
FX knew that if we could figure
out the best way to do it,
people would probably
want to watch it.
And then we had, already, by
that time found Damson Idris,
who plays Franklin.
And Damson also tested
completely off the charts.
So we knew we had this
incredible star in the making
at the center of it and a
concept that would work.
And so FX then
said, all right, now
you have to go figure this out.
Take John and Eric's thing.
Take as much as you want out,
but you have to figure it out.
And if you can figure
it out, we would be
willing to reshoot the pilot.
So I went off for a
few months and rewrote
the script, which is why
we're all three credited
as creating it.
JOSH LANZET: Yeah.
DAVE ANDRON: And
did a heavy rewrite.
And it took a
little while, but I
managed to kind
of figure it out,
or at least figure
it out to the point
where FX is willing to spend
another x amount to make it
again.
And this time, it worked.
JOSH LANZET: I mean,
at least it wasn't
spending as much as
"Game of Thrones"
probably would have cost.
DAVE ANDRON: Probably.
JOSH LANZET: Yeah.
You brought up Damson.
I did want to talk about that.
For me, and I don't want
to speak for everybody,
he is the most captivating
part of the show.
I was joking before
we came up here
that there are three
equally great storylines,
and all I keep wanting to see
is more Franklin all the time.
DAVE ANDRON: Yeah.
You and everybody else.
I mean, there is the
possibility that this show
was too ambitious in the start.
And if you watch
the three seasons,
you can see that we've kind
of narrowed it down and chosen
to focus much more
on South Central
and then on the CIA, which is
really what the show is about.
Maybe it never should have tried
to be a three-legged stool.
And I don't know.
Even if we had
executed each storyline
at the kind of
utmost, you'd still
have scenes where you
have a legitimate movie
star on the screen.
And then you have
scenes where you don't.
And those scenes
are always going
to pale in comparison, no matter
how well they're executed,
because that kid is so good.
JOSH LANZET: Yeah.
He's incredible.
The interesting thing that
took me by surprise in watching
this show is I'm watching.
I'm, like, oh, what
an authentic guy.
They got this great LA kid.
And then I start
looking up interviews.
And you're, like, oh, you
know, I love doing the show.
And I'm, like, is he British?
What's happening here?
You found a British
guy who perfectly
encapsulated LA in the '80s.
DAVE ANDRON: I know.
And look, it was a
big discussion point.
It was not an easy
decision to make, really.
I mean, we saw the tape.
And I, strangely, through
friends of friends,
knew his manager.
And she had reached
out and said,
you're going to get a tape
by this client of mine.
He's British.
He's amazing.
So I knew that he
was British going in.
But I would not have been
able to tell from the tape
if I hadn't been told.
His accent was
already that good.
He was classically trained.
And part of their training going
through the schools in the UK
is they have to have not
only an English accent,
American accent, but
multiple dialects.
They literally will make
them do a Southern accent,
a normal West coast, and
a Boston or New York.
I mean, they really put
them through the ringer.
The other thing is they
grow up watching our movies.
So they all have a good accent.
Where we don't really grow
up watching British film.
So we don't.
So his tape, from the
beginning, was really good.
But then it just became about--
I think we were right
about the same time
that Samuel Jackson had come out
very publicly and been, like,
what is it with people casting
British African actors to play
African-American actors
for characters in shows?
And John Singleton,
I think rightly,
was very opposed to it.
And I was, like, look.
I'm not casting a
fucking British kid
to play this guy
from South Central.
That is my world where I have
people I'm excited about.
And the process went on
for months and months,
even after seeing Damson.
We flew him out here to
have an audition in person.
And John was still
kind of, like, nah.
And ultimately, it just came
down to the two or three people
we had found and Damson
being so much better.
And it basically
came down to, look,
do you want to make this
thing with this kid,
or do you want to
not make the thing.
JOSH LANZET: Oh, wow.
DAVE ANDRON: And it was,
like, well, you probably
have to go with the person who
gets your television show made.
JOSH LANZET: Sure.
DAVE ANDRON: And look, we
put him through the paces.
And he spent a lot of
time in South Central.
And we brought in Dub C
of Westside Connection
to work with him to make it
as authentic as possible.
But it was never an easy choice.
It just seemed like it had
to kind of happen that way.
JOSH LANZET: Was it hard
going to bat for him,
I guess, not against,
but in conversation
with someone like
John Singleton?
I mean, this is someone
who, I think a lot of us who
love film, all know
John's work and everything
that he used to do.
And now you're coming in,
this is the first show
that you're officially
running, and you're
kind of talking to a legend
of sorts saying, you're wrong,
and here's why.
Was that tough for you?
DAVE ANDRON: Yeah.
I mean, I don't know.
I hope I didn't ever
phrase it quite like that.
JOSH LANZET: I hope so, too.
DAVE ANDRON: Yeah.
Yeah.
Look, it was very difficult. And
I, certainly in the beginning,
was willing to be,
like, look, I absolutely
think we should look at
every possible person
and really do our diligence.
And I understand the concerns.
And I had to respect very
much that it was John's world.
I mean, I grew up in LA.
But I didn't grow up in
South Central, right?
And I wanted to be as
respectful as I could of that
and of what he wanted to do.
But I think ultimately,
there was no choice.
but to go with Damson.
JOSH LANZET: Yeah.
I mean, I've read
articles which essentially
say that a lot of the
actors that we watch today
made the choice undeniable.
And it sounds like that's
what Damson did for you.
DAVE ANDRON: Yeah.
Very much.
And look, I'm sorry.
But also it's called
fucking acting.
I don't know.
The idea that we have
to be hiring that person
to play that person, that's
part of the great thing.
I personally don't want to
be put in a corner where
it's, like, all right, man.
You're a middle
aged white dude, now
you just write middle
aged white dudes
for the rest of your career.
JOSH LANZET: Sure.
DAVE ANDRON: Or
you're this person.
You have to now play that person
for the rest of your career.
I think part of what's lovely
about creating something
is doing the homework, trying
to get inside people's heads
as much as possible.
But the process of exploring
another person's life,
an experience that isn't your
own and articulating that
is part of what the juice
of this whole thing is.
And I think it'd be a real
shame to tell people they can't.
They're not allowed to
portray that person,
or not allowed to try to write
that person, just because
of the color of
their skin or where
they were born or whatever.
JOSH LANZET: Yeah.
And I have some
questions about that.
The one question I wanted
to ask before we get there,
because this captivated me so
much is the music in the show.
Incredible.
Invokes a nostalgia
from the '80s
that, especially for this
particular geography,
that few shows do.
I mean, I'm sure you heard
"West Coast Poplock" played
as you walked up here.
I mean, that opens the show.
John Singleton,
obviously, has a history
in bringing music into a lot
of his projects in really
interesting ways.
Did you both work closely
with your music supervisor
to kind of evoke a lot of
this, create the world?
DAVE ANDRON: Yeah, very much.
I mean, you can
tell from his movies
that he not only kind of
had a great sense of story,
but he really
understood pop culture.
He really did.
He saw what people responded to.
He was always
thinking about that,
what's the audience
going to respond to.
And it was so personal to him.
So not only was he great about
the more well-known things,
but he would get so
excited about a song that
was so obscure, more so,
even, than the really famous.
It would be, like, no, man.
Everyone's heard it.
You can't use that shit.
Like, everyone knows that.
But have something else
that was not as well-known,
that was so personal to him,
that was on the radio that day
when he was going through it.
And those are the
things, frankly--
you know, there's
a lot that I'll
miss about working
with him going forward.
But that specifically,
those little things,
those little details that he got
so excited about, that, again,
just aren't my experience.
I don't have that little--
I wasn't in the room
that day, you know,
when that song was on.
JOSH LANZET: I
think those things,
not that you need
someone affirming you,
but I do think that a lot of
those songs, at the very least,
for me, when I watched it, put
me, probably, where he was.
DAVE ANDRON: Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, look, that's a big
part of doing a show that's
a period piece like that.
From the moment you hear that,
it kind of puts you right back.
It's funny that the younger
people who watch it don't know.
We started-- we used "Blood
On the Leaves" in the finale
this year.
And I know, on Twitter,
there were some younger
people who were,
like, oh, they're
using that Kanye sample?
JOSH LANZET: Oof.
DAVE ANDRON: And I was, like--
JOSH LANZET: Oh, boy.
DAVE ANDRON: --oh, man.
But that happens throughout,
where they just know.
Because all these classic
songs have been sampled.
There's all bits and pieces.
And they'll be, like,
oh, that's that.
And it's, like, no.
It's the original.
I should also mention, of
course, our music supervisor,
whose name is Maggie Phillips--
JOSH LANZET: Yeah.
DAVE ANDRON: --who was amazing.
And look, we had a lot of money.
I think we spent close to a
half a million on the pilot,
on the music in the pilot.
And then after that, we
had $65,000 an episode,
which was a very
rude, awful awakening.
JOSH LANZET: With which
you played jingles
from old commercials.
[LAUGHTER]
DAVE ANDRON: It's
funny you say that.
My dad actually
is a musician who
wrote jingles his whole career.
JOSH LANZET: That's
why I said that.
DAVE ANDRON: --for
old commercials.
You're deep diving, man.
I appreciate that
level of research.
JOSH LANZET: We got some
gotcha journalism here.
Yeah?
DAVE ANDRON: Yeah.
That's really good.
Yeah.
What they've done to stretch
that number is pretty amazing.
JOSH LANZET: One of the things
you were talking about earlier
is you said you know
you don't want to be--
I'm quoting by the way, I
think you're wonderful--
but a middle aged
white guy, just writing
for middle aged white guys.
And to me, you're just a talent.
I don't see your
age or your color.
But it takes me to a moment in
the pilot of the first season,
where we're watching this.
And Franklin's
mother's on the phone.
And he's staring at her.
And she gets off
the phone and she
goes, what are you looking at?
And he says, I was just admiring
how good your white voice got.
DAVE ANDRON: Your
white phone voice.
JOSH LANZET: Yes.
Your white phone voice.
Yeah.
Yeah.
DAVE ANDRON: I cannot
take credit for that line.
I frankly don't even know
if that was John or Eric.
JOSH LANZET: Yeah.
DAVE ANDRON: But it was-- yeah.
JOSH LANZET: I
mean, that line, I
think that's definitely--
it was the first,
but certainly not the
last reference to code
switching in the entire series.
You know, I guess
from your perspective,
not just in the series, but
as someone who's writing it,
the requirement for you to
code switch a little bit
as a writer--
what were the
challenges in that,
kind of writing dialogue that is
authentic to a group of people
that you were and
are not a part of?
DAVE ANDRON: Yeah.
I mean, look-- part of, I
think, my job in this show--
more than maybe something
else I would create and run--
is to also know
what I don't know.
Right?
It's to really embrace--
I mean, our writing staff is as
diverse as any writing staff,
I would say, out there.
The same with our crew.
I mean, we really
tried to bring together
a group of people who
knew the world, who
could speak to the world.
And it was always a question,
a little bit for me,
of once I had to go
rewrite the pilot,
knowing that I always thought
I was going to be shepherding
a vision of John's.
And when I realized that
it was going to have to be,
that I was going to
step a little bit more
out in front of it, I
definitely had to question it.
Where it was, like, how much
can I be out in front of this?
| always knew that I'd have
to rely on people heavily
whose experience it was.
As much as I could
parrot the voice,
or go back to experiences that
I had growing up in that world,
it really came down
to always knowing
that I had to be willing
to listen to other people
and make sure that if
somebody was calling me out
and being like, oh, you can't
say that, that's bullshit--
really listening to that.
And relying on people like Dub C
and like John to just make sure
that everything was
exactly what it should be.
JOSH LANZET: Yeah.
I imagine Dub C would not have
been shy about telling you
what didn't work.
DAVE ANDRON: Dub
C is the greatest.
He's so cool about it,
and respectful, though.
He was always, like, yo, man.
You might want to--
and I was, like,
just tell me, dude.
You don't have to wind up.
But it's been the
experience so far
of my career getting to be
a part of the world of South
Central and be
trusted by our actors,
by other writers to write the
show and own it in that way.
It's been a very cool thing.
JOSH LANZET: Yeah.
I think what's really
interesting is not only
with the dialogue, but we're
talking about some pretty heavy
topics in this show.
I'm sure a lot of
you have seen it.
But we're talking about CIA drug
trafficking and the Iran-Contra
and all those other things.
What did you do, I
guess, to set yourself up
and your writers' room up for
being historically accurate
and things along those lines?
DAVE ANDRON: Yeah.
I mean, we are clearly playing a
little fast and loose certainly
with the CIA stuff.
You know, there's a lot
of conspiracy stuff.
There was obviously "Dark
Alliance" and the Gary Webb,
about what the CIA's role
might have been in what
happened in South Central.
And I think we did
make the decision.
Look, we did as much
research as we could
with what was out there
and try to read both sides.
Because, again, with
the internet now,
you can go down whatever
rabbit hole you want.
And you will find
things to support
whatever crazy theory you want
to have going on in your head.
So we tried to kind of look at
stuff on both sides of the line
and formulate something
that felt like it might
have been close to the truth.
And I think, as a group,
we ultimately felt
trying to sell the idea that the
US government was pumping drugs
specifically into
these communities
to destroy them felt like
we would lose credibility.
It felt like a step too far.
What did feel real to us,
through all the interviews we
had done and the
stuff we looked at
was that they were
looking the other way,
to make sure the cocaine
was able to be brought in
to fund this war in Nicaragua.
And I think and
understand the consequence
of that was all of a sudden
the cocaine prices went down,
like hugely went down, and
crack was able to take off.
I think that that's something
that is probably a truth.
Now nobody in the CIA
has ever gone on record
saying that that was the case
and probably nobody ever will.
And in that regard, you could
call us out and be, like, well,
you're bullshitting.
And there's no evidence,
really, to support that, aside
from maybe a disgraced
journalist who
ended up killing himself.
And if you don't know that
story, it's worth looking into.
It's pretty fucking wild.
But the stuff that was happening
in South Central and the way
that that neighborhood--
what the show
ultimately is about
is how a working class
neighborhood went to a war zone
in two years.
I mean, that's literally the
backbone of the whole thing.
And those details, the reality
of that, I don't think we're
fudging at all.
JOSH LANZET: I mean,
is it hard to balance?
Right now you've got--
you're balancing the dialogue.
You're balancing
historical accuracy.
And then you're also balancing--
the show, pretty
much every episode,
has South Central,
East LA, and the CIA.
So you're balancing, I
think the phrase used
was three-legged stool.
DAVE ANDRON: Yes.
JOSH LANZET: You're
balancing all three of those.
Is it hard to get the
exposition necessary
and the historical points
necessary across three
different storylines and
still keep them engaging?
DAVE ANDRON: Yeah.
I mean, I think as you
watch the show what you're
seeing is that it
has, again, whittled
down more into being just
about South Central and just
about the CIA.
I mean, ultimately, I think
we were hoping this would also
be a love letter to
LA and what happened
to LA over the course of this.
But the reality is
crack just did not--
it didn't kind of decimate
and infest East LA the way
it did South Central.
And so it just wasn't
as integral a part
of telling the story.
Now what is becoming an integral
part of telling the story
is that the cocaine
was initially
coming up through the
Bahamas and Florida
and being brought
across the country.
And then there was
a massive crackdown
in '83-'84 in Florida.
And all of a sudden, those
routes got primarily shut down.
And what happened was the
Mexican border opened up
once they realized there was
this huge market for cocaine,
certainly in
Southern California.
So that is a way now that we can
kind of tie that initial East
LA storyline back
into the fabric
of the story we're telling.
But yeah, look,
it's tough to tell
a story that's that ambitious.
It's hard to set up
one world, I think,
and make it really feel fully
fleshed out and authentic.
And it's really hard
to do it with three.
It's also hard to
do it in 42 minutes.
We don't have the 55
minutes and the $12 million
you might have on HBO,
frankly, to do it.
And that's OK.
There's liberation in
some of the constraints.
But we have to be aware
of what we're trying to do
and how much time
we have to do it.
JOSH LANZET: Sure.
A big theme of the show
seems to be that a lot of us
pretend to be someone we're not.
But in doing so, we
maybe find that we're
closer to that person
than we thought.
Right?
You look at someone like
Franklin in the first episode.
He's hiding the fact that he
smokes weed from his mother.
And by the end of season 3,
he's the person behind the gun.
Right?
You see someone like
his mother, pretending
to be someone she's
not on the phone,
and she wears fake teeth
and all those other things.
You see Teddy, a
CIA agent, who seems
to be the nicest friendliest
guy in the world.
But now we see he's behind a
gun by the end of season 1.
Do you kind of talk about
these themes in the room
to say, hey, these are questions
we want to probe and make
people think about?
DAVE ANDRON: Yeah.
I mean, I think certainly
we kind of go back to basics
at the beginning of
every season and start
to remind ourselves
the story we're telling
and the things we're addressing.
Those discussions, those
really big thematic discussions
take place largely before the
first season when you're really
kind of trying to figure
out what the show is
and what it's all about.
I think the duality, I think
the reinvention of one's self
in the model of trying to
achieve the American dream--
all of these people,
to some extent,
are ambitious for any
number of reasons.
Franklin's ambitions or out of
a very different-- initially,
on the surface level,
than Teddy's ambitions.
But ultimately,
they're both people
who feel like they want more
control over something, more
power.
And I've always loved that Teddy
and Franklin on the surface
could not be more different.
Right?
A kid in the hood who who's
just trying to kind of get out
of this cycle that he's been
stuck into and then a kid
from the Midwest who essentially
had every opportunity
and every advantage.
And yet they come together
and are weirdly similar.
And I've always loved that.
I think part of
my favorite scenes
to write for the show are
the Teddy-Franklin sit
downs with those two
going at each other
from these two very
different perspectives.
And then what I think
they're ultimately
learning, which neither of
them would probably ever admit,
is that they're
kind of more alike
than they would recognize.
And one of my favorite
moments was the ninth episode
in this season, where they
have that moment where
Franklin is completely
lost and completely alone.
And Teddy is the only
one who understands,
who truly understands the
pressure that he's under
and what he's trying to do.
And that felt, coming
across that moment,
even in the writing of
it, was, like, oh, shit.
This is such a cool
thing, such a cool duality
for these two very
different people to be
kind of coexisting within.
And it's exciting to see
where they go from there.
JOSH LANZET: Yeah.
I know there was--
I'm trying to remember.
I binged it.
So all these episodes
blur in my head.
But I think toward
the end of season 2
is the first time we see
when Teddy and Franklin are
in a room and Teddy talks about
how it's important to cede
responsibility and a
little bit of your power
in order to grow to the
size that you want to grow.
And I think that
was the first time
we saw he was talking to
Franklin and to himself
at the same time.
DAVE ANDRON: Yeah, I think--
is that maybe the moment
when they're in the bank?
JOSH LANZET: Yes.
DAVE ANDRON: And
they're in the studio
and Franklin goes to the window?
JOSH LANZET: Yes,
DAVE ANDRON: Yeah.
Again, that was kind of
the beginning of they
get over this
initial thing where
Teddy, in this really kind of
awful way, recruits Franklin.
But he recruits
him in a way where
he makes him understand that
he has complete power over him.
But that was the first
moment of helping the kid.
Or at least, on the
surface, it seemed
like he was helping him right?
Franklin didn't know what to
do with all this dirty cash.
And Teddy knows this
banker, of course.
Now there's also an element of
Teddy wanting to control him,
where now Teddy knows where
Franklin is keeping his money--
JOSH LANZET: Sure.
DAVE ANDRON: --which is
good for Teddy to know.
But yeah, he's trying to
build the kid up and build
his confidence up.
And it's self-serving.
But it's also real.
And Franklin is grappling
with all those things.
Because he doesn't know how
big this is going to get.
And he doesn't know what
kind of boss he's going to be
or how much power, how
much power you actually do
want to attain.
Because everybody
thinks they want power.
And then you start to
move up those ranks.
And you realize that
there's awful things that
come with that and
responsibilities
that come with that and
stress that comes with that.
And you have to decide,
OK, how much of that
do I want on my plate?
How much is it really worth it?
JOSH LANZET: As
someone with no power,
I can say it's pretty
cool down here.
[LAUGHTER]
I'm hanging.
It's funny.
So I was talking to a couple
of friends about the show.
And one person asked me for what
the best comparison point is.
The trouble with the show
is there kind of isn't one.
DAVE ANDRON: That's
great to hear, actually.
JOSH LANZET: Well,
it was hard for me.
I'm glad it works for you.
DAVE ANDRON: Well, you
want to do something that's
different, though, you know?
JOSH LANZET: And it is.
It is.
The closest thing
that I said was it's
a little bit like "Breaking Bad"
with more history behind it,
much grittier.
And the one thing when I
was trying to explain it
is, when you're
watching "Breaking
Bad," it seems like Walter
White had no other options.
Franklin seems to have other
options, but is choosing this.
Was that a big conversation
in the writers' room,
about how you wanted to get
Franklin into this lifestyle?
DAVE ANDRON: Yeah.
And you know, again, that's
something I can throw back
to Eric and John.
Where that was a thing that they
had kind of come up with that
I didn't change.
And part of that
was because it came
from John's real experience,
where he had, at times,
he had been sent to a
white school in the Valley
at some point in his youth.
JOSH LANZET: Oh, wow.
DAVE ANDRON: So it was
very personal to him,
that idea of somebody
who had gone out and been
a part of another world
and kind of seeing that.
But I thought it was
a really smart choice.
Because the obvious
thing would be,
you could have made him a kid
who had a horrible life, who
had a mother who--
like we did, obviously,
his father was absent.
But had a mother who didn't care
or wasn't well or something,
and they were in debt, and they
were going to lose their house.
I mean, you could have piled, I
think all these obvious reasons
on.
But I think it was
really smart to make
him a kid who could have chosen
to go out into that world
and play the game and try to
win by the rules of the society
that this country has kind of--
the rules we have dictated.
But he kind of understood
what I was going to do to him.
And he didn't have interest
in playing by those rules.
And he felt like he was
going to get fucked around
and beat down.
And he would have, every day.
And we kind of went
at that very directly
in the finale of this
season, of the third season.
Which I was really proud
of the episode and the way
it kind of came together.
But yeah, it was absolutely
a conscious choice.
And I think it just made the
whole thing more interesting
and kind of a harsher look
at the world we live in now.
But certainly, the
world as it was in 1983
when we first meet him.
JOSH LANZET: And I'm
so glad you brought up
the finale of season 3.
Because that's my next question.
It's tough.
I think when you watch the first
episode of the first season,
and we see Franklin make
the choice to come in here,
it seems like it was a choice.
The finale of season 3
seems to dispel that idea.
To essentially say
that even if Franklin
had made other choices--
DAVE ANDRON: Yeah.
JOSH LANZET: --completely
opposite choices,
he would have ended
up in the same place.
And what it feels like
a little bit to me,
and I would love to hear
your thoughts on this,
it kind of seems a bit like it's
saying, if you're growing up
as an African-American in
a less affluent community,
like Franklin does,
there are going
to be a litany of
obstacles that you're
going to have to
overcome that people
who are not in that
situation are not ever
going to have to face.
And those obstacles are
often too hard to overcome.
Is that kind of where
you were going there?
And is that a story
you wanted to tell
from the very beginning?
DAVE ANDRON: Yeah.
I mean, I think
certainly from the way
it was set up with him, that
was part of the DNA of the show
and what we were saying
about the choices you make.
And if you really
want to get out
from under the thumb of
the system, which you maybe
have to do if you're Franklin
and you're in that place--
but yeah, I mean, that
was the thing, man.
And we talked a little bit
about that in the room.
And it was are you really damned
if you do, damned if you don't?
And Walter Mosley,
who's been with the show
from the very
beginning, and who I've
come to really rely on
and love was, like, yes!
You were fucked either way.
My opinion of being a
black man in America
is you are screwed either way.
I was, like, well, yeah.
Then that's where
we're going to go at.
Now, I don't think
you could argue
that had you gone the other
way, it would have been worse.
JOSH LANZET: I don't know how.
DAVE ANDRON: It's going--
I mean, yeah, this is going to
not end well, spoiler alert,
probably for anybody.
But it would have been
an uphill struggle.
It would have been brutal.
And it would have been
getting his fucking
face put in the mud every day.
And that's a hard hit.
It sucks.
JOSH LANZET: Yep.
I don't know that he's in
a better situation now.
But I think that that leads me--
and I know that we're
coming up on time,
so I want to leave time for
other folks' questions--
that kind of leads me to
a final thought, which
is that the interesting thing
about watching this show
is that the moral compass
is constantly moving.
We think it's with Franklin.
I don't want to say too much.
But once he pulls the
trigger, he's not really
our moral center anymore.
Teddy, again, I
mentioned earlier,
seems like a moral center.
He's pulling triggers,
so he's kind of not.
And Lucia, who seems
wonderful in the first season,
already turns on her family,
and in the second season
is also the one behind the gun.
So it's interesting.
When you come into the
ideas of this show,
are you intentionally
shifting the moral compass
of the show with every episode?
DAVE ANDRON: I think
when you sign up
to do a crime show
or a drug show
or wherever you want to
classify it in the genre,
I think for us, it was what are
these people all willing to do?
Right?
That was one of the
big thematic things,
was how far are
they willing to go?
At what point do you stop?
Is there ever a line
where you say, like, OK,
this line I'm not crossing.
This is the thing I'm
not willing to do.
And how far will they go?
And I think that's
a big part of what
the arc for these characters
will be all about.
Do they have moments
where they're
looking to fully walk away?
And if so, are they able to?
And what does that
mean for them?
But it's certainly something
we're very conscious of
and spend a lot of
time talking about.
JOSH LANZET: That's awesome.
Does anyone have-- we can
open it up for questions.
AUDIENCE: My name's [INAUDIBLE].
I'll just put this right here.
I'm just really curious
about the writers' room.
I've always been
curious about that.
You said there was a group of
people in the writers' room.
I'm wondering
about-- and you just
stick with whatever you
want to answer to this,
but do you write
chronologically?
That's my first
question, I guess.
Do you write chronologically?
And how are people choosing
when people are writing lines?
Is it, like, someone,
like a head writer,
comes in with a structure?
And then, we're, like, oh,
this still isn't climactic.
This isn't what we need.
I'm just really curious on how
that creative process is going.
Are in there for seven hours
yelling at each other--
whatever you want to tell me.
DAVE ANDRON: Yeah.
Hopefully, they're not
yelling at each other.
AUDIENCE: No, but in a good way.
DAVE ANDRON: Yeah.
I mean, writers' room is kind of
my full happy place, honestly.
And all the hats you end
up wearing running a show,
we start up.
And there's a group of anywhere
between, I think, eight--
the fewest amount
we've had is eight.
Then last year, we, I
think, had 13, which is--
AUDIENCE: Eight?
13?
DAVE ANDRON: 13 was a lot.
13--
AUDIENCE: But what
is everybody doing?
Like, 13 people,
that's a lot of people.
DAVE ANDRON: That's
a lot of people.
They're all sitting around.
Hopefully, you can get
everyone on the same page.
And so it is my
job to kind of come
in and every once in
a while, I'll come in
and be, like, does
anyone have anything
they want to-- but I'll
come in in the first couple
days and just
download whatever I've
been thinking about season
and big things and arcs
and whatever.
So you start
talking big picture.
And you try to maybe have
some sense of the goalposts
at the end.
But I also think that you, then,
you kind of hamstring yourself.
It's much more fun to
set up the general thing,
the backbone for the season.
For instance, this
third season, I
knew Franklin's
neighbor is this girl
that he had once been
in love with and dated
and her father's a cop.
And we'd built a
couple seasons now
to getting to where I
knew the season was going
to be about Franklin and
the cop and the girl,
that we had this triangle.
So to come in and
start with that,
and so you start
talking big picture.
We obviously have
a pretty big cast.
So you have to talk about a
lot of different characters.
So you start kind of big.
And then you start
kind of narrowing down
when you have some
framework for the season.
But, like, OK, what's the first
episode going to look like?
And you have big white boards.
And you just start putting
beats up for stories.
AUDIENCE: And then do
some of those 13 people
just start, like, OK,
you go write scene 1?
DAVE ANDRON: No.
So I get to kind of decide who--
AUDIENCE: You're the boss.
OK.
DAVE ANDRON: --who does what.
There's got to be some
structure in there.
AUDIENCE: Cool.
DAVE ANDRON: And
generally, it'll
go with people who
have been with the show
now for a few years who I know--
AUDIENCE: They know
the characters.
DAVE ANDRON: Yeah.
I know they can write the show.
Because there's always a
question with a new writer of
are they going to be
able to get the tone
and write these voices.
So typically, I'll
right the first one.
And that means writing an
outline based on the board.
And then tearing that up, maybe.
And blah, blah, blah,
sending to the network,
and then writing a script.
So I try to give people
ownership of the episodes.
Sometimes people
will split a script,
especially if I have
a new baby writer,
I'll sometimes pair them
with an older writer,
just to try to help them
along in the process.
But somebody ultimately has
to have ownership of it.
And I always felt, as a
writer on other staffs,
that I wanted to be
assigned with really
having to own it and get
under the skin of it.
Because even if we get a version
of the story in the room broken
that we're happy with,
I'd love the writer
to come back and be like,
you know, I'm writing it.
And this scene feels soft.
And I don't know what
they're thinking here,
to really start to own it.
AUDIENCE: Cool.
DAVE ANDRON: And we go
through the seasons like that.
AUDIENCE: Awesome.
Thank you.
DAVE ANDRON: Of course.
JOSH LANZET: Any other?
Back over there?
AUDIENCE: Just wondering what
it was like working with John
and what the impact
of that is now
on the show in terms of
the creative direction.
Has the trajectory
already been set?
Do you know what you're going
into for the next two seasons?
How much of that
is going to change?
DAVE ANDRON: Yeah.
It's interesting.
The process of working
with him, I mean,
it changed so much for me.
And his blessing
for me to be the guy
to come in and help
him tell this story,
it was something that, again,
has changed my life and the way
that I see the world.
And I'll always be so grateful.
I'll always kind of
take away those moments
of him being so excited
about the power of a moment
and those little things.
There was a moment in the
second season when Franklin's
buddies, this white boy,
Rob, who was in his crew,
and his dad steals his cocaine.
And we had him go to
get the cocaine back.
And John was, like,
he's got to say,
tell Rob to slap his daddy.
and he's like man,
slap yo daddy.
And at that, it was
just, like, one line.
But it became this
hugely iconic moment.
And John was so good at that.
And then I think the
direction going forward--
he was very gracious
about allowing
us to do what we needed
to do in the room.
He was not there every day.
He liked being on
set a lot more.
That was kind of
where he was happier.
And so I take a lot of solace
that by this season, outlines
would come out,
scripts would come out,
and he would just be
ecstatic about them.
He was so happy
with the direction
of where we were
taking it and what
we had done that I feel very
confident in moving forward,
that he'd be happy with the
things that we were doing.
And look, over four
years together,
we talked a lot about what
the story was and kind
of where it had to go.
And while we didn't
have specifics
for how things were
going to end, again,
knowing that I can't
be in John's head,
I feel like we'll do him proud.
I feel like everybody will
step up and kind of remember
the things that he was always
really passionate about
and really try to serve
those things in his memory.
AUDIENCE: What kind of
viewership do you get--
hundreds of millions?
I mean, how many--
DAVE ANDRON:
Hundreds of millions.
JOSH LANZET: Worldwide?
DAVE ANDRON: You
know, it's funny.
We don't get the numbers
for international stuff.
So I really don't know.
JOSH LANZET: OK.
DAVE ANDRON: I know that
over the course of all
their platforms,
between streaming and TV
and whatever else is somewhere
between 3.5 and five million
a week are seeing the show,
which is pretty great for us.
I think, like, the
night of viewing
is somewhere around a million
viewers, or maybe the live plus
3s, which are within three days.
And we just now live in
this world, strangely,
where the ratings of that
moment aren't that important.
It's kind of more about
creating an ecosystem that
has something for everyone.
So you have to subscribe
to the app or do whatever.
JOSH LANZET: Right.
DAVE ANDRON: They just put us on
Hulu, now that Disney owns us.
AUDIENCE: Yeah.
I haven't watched.
I mean, obviously, the
billboards are awesome.
You drive by.
You're, like, I want
to see that show.
DAVE ANDRON: Yeah.
AUDIENCE: And I just
remember-- you sometimes in LA,
you get busy and just
don't get to things.
DAVE ANDRON: Sure.
JOSH LANZET: But
obviously, I'm going
to go home and watch it straight
through, one through four.
[LAUGHTER]
DAVE ANDRON: Yeah.
I know the first two
seasons are now up
on Hulu, which has, I think,
really helped, actually.
AUDIENCE: Is it on
Amazon Prime, too?
DAVE ANDRON: I don't
think it's on Prime.
AUDIENCE: You have
to pay for it.
DAVE ANDRON: You have to pay for
it on iTunes or Amazon Prime,
right.
AUDIENCE: My question is,
overall the show is a success?
I mean, you guys are doing well?
And--
DAVE ANDRON: Yeah.
AUDIENCE: --it's well-received.
I mean, it's got
like a 9.5 rating.
DAVE ANDRON: Yeah.
I think we've managed to
get better every year.
And you can see it.
I mean, you watch
the first season,
and it's still a
little scattered.
It's a lot of storylines.
But as it kind of continues
to sharpen its focus,
it's come up more and more.
And I think my proudest
moment was somebody sent me
a link of Snoop Dogg watching
the finale this year.
And he was, like,
motherfucking "Snowfall."
And I was, like, oh, fuck.
I'm good.
[LAUGHTER]
If it's in the popular
culture in that way
and Snoop shouting us
out, but we're good,
FX is now just
kind of, like, what
do you need to tell the story?
How many seasons do you to do?
How do you want to finish it?
How do you tell
it the right way?
AUDIENCE: Well, how many?
DAVE ANDRON: At this
point, I think six.
I think we're at
the halfway point.
AUDIENCE: We love
these LA dramas.
And cool, well, congratulations.
And yeah, "Justified's" sick.
DAVE ANDRON:
Appreciate that, man.
Thank you.
JOSH LANZET: Well, I think
that's all the time we have.
That's really exciting.
You heard it here
first, six seasons,
what we're all hoping for--
and a movie.
[LAUGHTER]
Who knows?
Thank you so much
for your time, Dave.
I really appreciate it.
Thank you for coming out.
DAVE ANDRON: Thanks everybody.
JOSH LANZET: Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
