KATIE COURIC: Let's unpack
this whole gender conversation.
You use a device,
or a character,
called the Genderbread Man.
SAM KILLERMAN: Person.
KATIE COURIC: Oh, sorry.
Oh.
Sorry, sorry.
The Genderbread Person.
SAM KILLERMAN: It's OK.
I find it really helpful to
think about gender in a few
different distinct
categories-- gender identity,
how you define your gender
and how you see yourself;
gender expression, the different
ways that we present or perform
gender through our actions,
our dress, and our demeanor;
and biological sex
or anatomical sex--
the physical characteristics
that make up our body that,
in many people's minds,
equal gender, but don't.
KATIE COURIC: So gender
expression is the way you
present yourself to the world.
So you could be talking
about the way you dress,
the way you comb your hair--
SAM KILLERMAN: Or don't.
KATIE COURIC: --or use product.
So everything as it relates
to the outside world.
SAM KILLERMAN: Yeah.
That's a perfect way
to think about it.
So even just-- OK,
so this is funny.
The way that I'm
sitting right now
is a very feminine expression
of sitting, because how we sit
is gendered.
KATIE COURIC: Meanwhile,
I'm kind of man-spreading.
SAM KILLERMAN: Yeah,
you're man-spreading.
You're not even give me
enough room to properly
man-spread over here.
This is the man cross,
the masculine way
of crossing a leg.
This is just
uncomfortable for me.
It feels like so much.
KATIE COURIC: It
feels good to me.
SAM KILLERMAN: Yeah?
KATIE COURIC: Yeah,
it's like yoga.
OK, now let's do the girl.
SAM KILLERMAN: OK.
KATIE COURIC: So
gender is different
than sexual orientation.
SAM KILLERMAN: Yeah.
KATIE COURIC: But a lot of
people get them confused.
SAM KILLERMAN: Yeah.
Gender is who you go to bed as.
Sexual orientation is
who you go to bed with.
KATIE COURIC: Got it.
SAM KILLERMAN: So if you
haven't heard that one,
that one is important.
KATIE COURIC: So let's talk
about penises and vaginas,
shall we?
SAM KILLERMAN: We might as well.
SAM KILLERMAN: Let's
just go right there.
SAM KILLERMAN: If you haven't
already talked about penises
and vaginas, we need to talk
about penises and vagina,
because that's what
everybody always thinks.
Immediately, as soon
as you say gender,
anybody who's walking by
right now who's hearing us
say the word "gender,"
the first thing
that's popping to their
mind is external genitalia.
They're thinking about
penises and vagina.
KATIE COURIC: So for the
purpose of our discussion,
the bottom line is,
your external genitalia
does not dictate your gender.
SAM KILLERMAN: Yeah.
KATIE COURIC (VOICEOVER):
Wait a second.
Can you rewind that?
KATIE COURIC: The bottom line
is, your external genitalia
does not dictate your gender.
SAM KILLERMAN: Yeah.
I couldn't have said it better.
