Hi Joe, thank you for being here
We are here for Narrattiva talking with Joe Mcdaldno
which is a game designer
and the author of Monsterhearts.
and um...
Thankyou so much, we have a few questions for you
First of all we'd like to ask:
you are a game designer since some years now
you already wrote three complete and published games
Monsterhearts, Perfect: Unrevised and Ribbon Drive
and your kickstarter for Monsterhearts raised an amount of money
quite impressive for the indie scene.
showing how much the players were involved with your games
So we are a bit curious to know:
How did you start roleplaying? What brought you into the hobby?
uh... i started when i was in high school
playing Dungeons & Dragons...
and I quickly found that I wasn't really satisfied with
the kind of story that Dungeons & Dragons
were allowing me to tell and allowing my friends to tell
I started looking online
for different game design communities
trying to see what was out there
and uh... I found the Forge
quickly got really excited about indie design
and without having played anything more than Dungeons & Dragons
I decided that I was ready to start designing games
maybe a bit premature but... uh...
Yeah, the first game I designed was Perfect
which is a game about criminals in a steampunk distopia
I published that, basically the month after I graduated high school
it was a design I think that wasn't
really ready to be published at the time uh...
I hadn't done enough playtesting and I hadn't experienced enough games
but that's, yeah that's right how it started
So, just out of curiosity
before you started to design
did you play any other games apart from D&D?
I played D&D... uh... I played some kind of homebrew
variants that people had um...
I played D&D... uh... I played some kind of homebrew
variants that people had um...
designed in my town and then um...
variants that people had um...
designed in my town and then um...
I had bought "My Life With Master"
designed in my town and then um...
I had bought "My Life With Master"
and had read it and that was a...
I had bought "My Life With Master"
and had read it and that was a...
really big influence early on
but I had a very limited exposure to what roleplaying games included.
really big influence early on
but I had a very limited exposure to what roleplaying games included.
I pressed into designing... I kind of... leapt into it
but I had a very limited exposure to what roleplaying games included.
I pressed into designing... I kind of... leapt into it
assuming that I knew everything I needed to, which really wasn't true...
I pressed into designing... I kind of... leapt into it
assuming that I knew everything I needed to, which really wasn't true...
Well maybe it was, seeing what you did!
uh... Let's talk a bit about Monsterhearts... uh...
Well maybe it was, seeing what you did!
uh... Let's talk a bit about Monsterhearts... uh...
"Teen sexy drama". The first two things that came to mind hearing those words
uh... Let's talk a bit about Monsterhearts... uh...
"Teen sexy drama". The first two things that came to mind hearing those words
are Buffy and Twilight. Did you had this kind of stories in mind
when you started writing Monsterhearts? And
are Buffy and Twilight. Did you had this kind of stories in mind
when you started writing Monsterhearts? And
how do you feel, or what do you answer, when someone tells you
when you started writing Monsterhearts? And
how do you feel, or what do you answer, when someone tells you
"Oh, Monsterhearts is the Twilight saga's game"?
Yeah, well... uh... it first started as kind of a joke
looking at the Apocalypse World engine and creating moves to play out
Yeah, well... uh... it first started as kind of a joke
looking at the Apocalypse World engine and creating moves to play out
the romance of uh... Bella and Edward... [laugh]
looking at the Apocalypse World engine and creating moves to play out
the romance of uh... Bella and Edward... [laugh]
and so it it definitely started as a Twilight...
joke or hack, and then evolved into something a bit bigger
So yeah, Buffy and Twilight are both
joke or hack, and then evolved into something a bit bigger
So yeah, Buffy and Twilight are both
very much source material uh...
So yeah, Buffy and Twilight are both
very much source material uh...
They aren't necessarily the ones that I'd point to
very much source material uh...
They aren't necessarily the ones that I'd point to
as the best example of what Monsterhearts is about.
They aren't necessarily the ones that I'd point to
as the best example of what Monsterhearts is about.
I'd point to Gingersnaps, or the Vampire Diaries, or True Blood.
as the best example of what Monsterhearts is about.
I'd point to Gingersnaps, or the Vampire Diaries, or True Blood.
Let's talk a bit about Monsterhearts's father: Apocalypse World.
How was the reaction to your game from the apocalypse community?
And how was for you to work with the powered by the apocalypse engine?
I was surprised by how many people
who were excited about AW where also excited about Monsterhearts
I was surprised by how many people
who were excited about AW where also excited about Monsterhearts
I kind of expected somehow for that to be less crossover
just because the source material is... very different
I kind of expected somehow for that to be less crossover
just because the source material is... very different
and it asks people to step outside their comfort zone
just because the source material is... very different
and it asks people to step outside their comfort zone
an explorer like teen drama and high school politics
and it asks people to step outside their comfort zone
an explorer like teen drama and high school politics
and, like, problematic sexual territory, and so...
an explorer like teen drama and high school politics
and, like, problematic sexual territory, and so...
uh... yeah i i expected for there to be fewer AW players
who also got excited but Monsterhearts, I was pleasantly surprised by that
as far as working with the Apocalypse World engine
I really loved that system
as far as working with the Apocalypse World engine
I really loved that system
and I love thinking about things in terms of moves
and in terms of that like seven-nine complicated result
in a lot of ways Monsterhearts grew out of
and in terms of that like seven-nine complicated result
in a lot of ways Monsterhearts grew out of
like my understanding of what Apocalypse World is like
like my ideal AW game also involves a lot of uh...
exploring those petty power rivalries and complicated
like relationship statuses, and people who don't have as much agency as they
want, or don't know how to access their agency
and so when I play AW I play it similar to Monsterhearts to a dregree
I guess I was surprised by how easy and fit it was
to recreate Twilight within the AW engine
I guess I was surprised by how easy and fit it was
to recreate Twilight within the AW engine
I think it's it's a lot of fun to hack games with the AW engine
I've done some other kind of hacking stuff and it's never been this fun
If I may say so
despite thw two games, Monsterhearts and Apocalypse World
If I may say so
despite thw two games, Monsterhearts and Apocalypse World
being very different, they have some really huge differences
despite thw two games, Monsterhearts and Apocalypse World
being very different, they have some really huge differences
I think you shouldn't be so surprised that people likes both because
in the end both share the theme of
how do you influence and are influenced
in the end both share the theme of
how do you influence and are influenced
bye the society around you
how do you influence and are influenced
bye the society around you
and attraction and sexyness and stuff like this
bye the society around you
and attraction and sexyness and stuff like this
is very present in both games so
and attraction and sexyness and stuff like this
is very present in both games so
they are close in this regard.
What is yout tought, as a designer, about this
they are close in this regard.
What is yout tought, as a designer, about this
last year's flourishing of Apocalypse World hack
What is yout tought, as a designer, about this
last year's flourishing of Apocalypse World hack
touching every possible setting written in the past for any RPG?
last year's flourishing of Apocalypse World hack
touching every possible setting written in the past for any RPG?
I think... I think it's exciting uh... I don't
I dont' know that Apocalypse World is
a good fit for every hack that's been made of it
I dont' know that Apocalypse World is
a good fit for every hack that's been made of it
I think that it's really good at uh...
exploring people who had a lot of power but
create a lot of problems because they use that power... and
that works really well in an apocalyptic kind of game and it works really well
in Monsterhearts. In some of the hacks
like the genre is... they aren't into those people with problematic takes of power
For like that 7-9 result of, like you get what you want
like the genre is... they aren't into those people with problematic takes of power
For like that 7-9 result of, like you get what you want
but is really complicated, or you don't get what you want
For like that 7-9 result of, like you get what you want
but is really complicated, or you don't get what you want
but there's this other things
but is really complicated, or you don't get what you want
but there's this other things
Yeah, that's really fundamental to what I think of Apocalypse World
but there's this other things
Yeah, that's really fundamental to what I think of Apocalypse World
being what I think of that engine being.
Yeah, that's really fundamental to what I think of Apocalypse World
being what I think of that engine being.
I'm not sure that every hack actually benefits from being an AW hack
but I think it's really cool that people are
pulling apart in different ways and everyone is seeing
in the Apocalypse World engine a different
a different foundation to like move to different directions with
I think that's really cool that we have like this shared language
to say a bunch of different things with
I think that's really cool that we have like this shared language
to say a bunch of different things with
How much did you play Apocalypse World
before starting to work on Monsterhearts?
How much did you play Apocalypse World
before starting to work on Monsterhearts?
I played in a 7 sessions long campaign
before starting to work on Monsterhearts?
I played in a 7 sessions long campaign
that was with really good in a lot of ways
and really frustrating in a lot of ways
that was with really good in a lot of ways
and really frustrating in a lot of ways
we all had different understandings of what AW... like what it meant
and what it was... we all kind of like went off and fought about it a lot and
we all had different understandings of what AW... like what it meant
and what it was... we all kind of like went off and fought about it a lot and
that group ended up being Adam Koebel, who co-wrote Dungeon World
and what it was... we all kind of like went off and fought about it a lot and
that group ended up being Adam Koebel, who co-wrote Dungeon World
was in that group with me, and Johnstone (Metzger) who wrote
that group ended up being Adam Koebel, who co-wrote Dungeon World
was in that group with me, and Johnstone (Metzger) who wrote
Dungeon Planet and a few other AW hacks was also in that group
was in that group with me, and Johnstone (Metzger) who wrote
Dungeon Planet and a few other AW hacks was also in that group
and so uh... that was a big campaign I think
Dungeon Planet and a few other AW hacks was also in that group
and so uh... that was a big campaign I think
and we all had very different ideas about what AW was about
and then after that I played
a lot of one shots uh... at conventions
I probably MC'ed
somewhere between six and ten over like that six months period
and then a couple of two or three session long games
so a fair bet and then once I started writing Monsterhearts
actually wrote it and then didn't really play much of it at all for about six months
and then convention season came around and
I played a lot slots
a few other people, Carol Ritneys especially
played lots lots and give me lots of feedback and kind of
I used all the people who definitely pushed me to keep wrecking on it
There was a moment in which you realized that some of the mechanics
of Apocalypse World weren't suited for your game
and you started to step out of those
and work on completely different stuff?
and you started to step out of those
and work on completely different stuff?
Can you talk a bit about this process?
one of the biggest differences between the two games is that Monsterhearts is
very much focused on conflict between the players, or between the characters
and so there's not a lot of like outside threats
very much focused on conflict between the players, or between the characters
and so there's not a lot of like outside threats
and there's not a lot of coming together as a team
most of the time
so one of the mechanics that really reinforces that is Strings
which are at the power that these player characters have over one another
and Strings are actually the very first mechanic that I came up with
and I just had the the word "strings" since that very first like
and Strings are actually the very first mechanic that I came up with
and I just had the the word "strings" since that very first like
riffing on or joking about Twilight and hacking AW to play Twilight
and I just had the the word "strings" since that very first like
riffing on or joking about Twilight and hacking AW to play Twilight
the very first move that I came up with mentions strings and mentions people getting strings on one another
So that was Monsterhearts: the very beginning
the very first move that I came up with mentions strings and mentions people getting strings on one another
So that was Monsterhearts: the very beginning
Another big thing was that AW has
So that was Monsterhearts: the very beginning
Another big thing was that AW has
two core moves that everyone has access to which are read a person and read a situation
and so you have a lot of assessing a lot of figuring out what's going on around you
and when your teenager you don't actually have that luxury
most teenagers aren't very good at figuring out who to trust
and when your teenager you don't actually have that luxury
most teenagers aren't very good at figuring out who to trust
and that's a big part of what being a teenager is: making those mistakes and learning from them and
having that animosity built when you realize you can't trust people
and that's a big part of what being a teenager is: making those mistakes and learning from them and
having that animosity built when you realize you can't trust people
I think that read a person was kind of in the initial draft and got pulled away pretty quickly
harms works much differently
it's a much simpler system: there's no Armour
harms works much differently
it's a much simpler system: there's no Armour
there's no weapons stats or anything like that it's just you have four harms, is very easy to
it's a much simpler system: there's no Armour
there's no weapons stats or anything like that it's just you have four harms, is very easy to
bring you up to the "you are about to die"
there's no weapons stats or anything like that it's just you have four harms, is very easy to
bring you up to the "you are about to die"
and that just felt genre appropriate
they're very few to actual battles in the genre
the other big difference I guess is in Monsterhearts you have this thing called Darkest Self
there needed to be something as far as
tempiting people to, you know like
through most of the game you're like a teenager who is also a monster
tempiting people to, you know like
through most of the game you're like a teenager who is also a monster
but then like they needed to be some kind of trigger to be like... ok now
through most of the game you're like a teenager who is also a monster
but then like they needed to be some kind of trigger to be like... ok now
be like an actual monster, rip people apart
right away like it was clear that there needed to be something to
prompt players in that direction and Darkest Self is what came out
and it's really not like it's not much of a mechanic it's more just an invitation
right is just saying like: here is a way to be a horrible monster, do it!
and it's really not like it's not much of a mechanic it's more just an invitation
right is just saying like: here is a way to be a horrible monster, do it!
How much in Monsterhearts and in your other games
right is just saying like: here is a way to be a horrible monster, do it!
How much in Monsterhearts and in your other games
is evolving RPG design and how much comes from other branches of design
like art, architecture, typography, boardgames, videogames
Monsterhearts is, like there's not actually a lot that's
that's super original in it, it is very much taking the
really interesting design components of Apocalypse World and
using them to tells stories in the genre that actually there's not a lot of RPG about
that's much more a marriage of two things that I find really compelling
The Quiet Year, which is the thing I most recently published, which is a post apocalyptic
community-building map-making game
The Quiet Year, which is the thing I most recently published, which is a post apocalyptic
community-building map-making game
i think there's a lot more in terms of
creating new types of stories and creating new kinds of ways to tell stories
i think it is
pretty innovative in thinks like we're gonna tell a story from the point of view of the map
more or less
and i think that's pretty novel
and Ribbon Drive which I published previously
which is about road trips
I think also has mechanics that
allow people to tell new types of stories, but
Monsterhearts is much more just a marriage of
of things that i like and things that i wanted to bring to the gaming table. It also calls upon
existing technology rather than creating new technology
and apart from AW do you see other game as influences in Monsterhearts or
you just got inspiration from Apocalypse World?
and apart from AW do you see other game as influences in Monsterhearts or
you just got inspiration from Apocalypse World?
yeah, I feel like... gimme a second I'd look at my game shelf
[laughs] Sure!
yeah, I feel like... gimme a second I'd look at my game shelf
[laughs] Sure!
Apocalypse World was the biggest one for sure
[laughs] Sure!
Apocalypse World was the biggest one for sure
and Mist-Robed Gates, which is a
kind of hardhouse, wuxia
and Mist-Robed Gates, which is a
kind of hardhouse, wuxia
game that has this complicated setup where
kind of hardhouse, wuxia
game that has this complicated setup where
people aren't necessarily fighting one another
game that has this complicated setup where
people aren't necessarily fighting one another
but they have loyalties, and they have factions which
put them at odds with one another and there's this
but they have loyalties, and they have factions which
put them at odds with one another and there's this
inevitability
there is gonna come to blow and they're gonna have to make sacrifices for one another or
inevitability
there is gonna come to blow and they're gonna have to make sacrifices for one another or
lash out at one another
and uh...
but they're they're not uh... explicitly
enemies
at the start of the game
uh... and i think that pouring that kind of melodrama setup uh...
is something the Monsterhearts does
so yeah in terms of how tensions are constructed within the group
Mist-Robed Gate would be an influence
and about others RPG's authors
that you know is there someone you
take as a reference for his works or you want to emulate
someone you want
to take as an example
So Vincent Daker is one of them
I'm a big fanbot of him. Emily Care as well
Breaking the Ice is
at the begins I guess I find most inspiring even you know I first read it years ago
Breaking the Ice is
at the begins I guess I find most inspiring even you know I first read it years ago
I think it's yeah it's really exciting. I think her work
at the begins I guess I find most inspiring even you know I first read it years ago
I think it's yeah it's really exciting. I think her work
is pretty much unparalleled this far in introducing
ways to talk about romance ways to talk about relationships in games
Ben Lehman as well
I'm really inspired by just the fact that he
pushes game design in so many
I'm really inspired by just the fact that he
pushes game design in so many
different directions and each one of his games
breaks new ground in
and it's not the same kind of like, it's not moving in the same direction you know like
Clover allows us to tell stories without conflicts
and it's not the same kind of like, it's not moving in the same direction you know like
Clover allows us to tell stories without conflicts
Polaris uses key phrases, Hot Guys Making Out like builds on card draws and
Clover allows us to tell stories without conflicts
Polaris uses key phrases, Hot Guys Making Out like builds on card draws and
and setting details, and like there's yeah, all this games are doing a totally new different things
and he's designed so many really cool games, so yeah, those three people I think
and setting details, and like there's yeah, all this games are doing a totally new different things
and he's designed so many really cool games, so yeah, those three people I think
Is there a game which is an heartbreaker for you, a game that you
and he's designed so many really cool games, so yeah, those three people I think
Is there a game which is an heartbreaker for you, a game that you
everything fall and you loved very much and you will love to rewrite it but
the actual version doesn't suite your tastes for some reason. Is there a game like this?
i don't know
for years i was really excited by a lot of the ideas in Vampire the Masquerade
but not excited about the mechanics and so
for years i was really excited by a lot of the ideas in Vampire the Masquerade
but not excited about the mechanics and so
actually worked on a vampire hack and
spent a lot of time thinking about what my ideal Vampire game would be and Monsterhearts is
actually worked on a vampire hack and
spent a lot of time thinking about what my ideal Vampire game would be and Monsterhearts is
i guess is also my response to Vampire
so I love AW, is one of my favourite
we just started a new campaign last night and I'm really excited about it
so I love AW, is one of my favourite
we just started a new campaign last night and I'm really excited about it
at the same time i think a lot of ways to
rework either the apocalypse world engine or
the story set in apocalypse world so I'm imagining what it would be if it was diceless
imagining what it would be if it were a much more birdseye view kind of thing and so
the story set in apocalypse world so I'm imagining what it would be if it was diceless
imagining what it would be if it were a much more birdseye view kind of thing and so
i wouldn't say it's a game that I'm dissatisfied with
but it's definitely one that I'm really compelled by I wanna to pick it apart and put back together for a bunch of different things
i wouldn't say it's a game that I'm dissatisfied with
but it's definitely one that I'm really compelled by I wanna to pick it apart and put back together for a bunch of different things
Please do!
Any opinion about how Monsterhearts was received by the players community
Are you happy about the reaction you got? Did anything happened that surprised you?
i'm really happy by
just the amount of people that have been picking it up and been playing it
have been excited about it
that's really cool
yeah, when I launched the kickstarter
one thing that I was, like a 1300 dollar
baker reward, where I'd just fly wherever you lived
one thing that I was, like a 1300 dollar
baker reward, where I'd just fly wherever you lived
and run a game with you
and I kinda put that out as a
and run a game with you
and I kinda put that out as a
mostly you like, not as a joke but assuming that i couldn't imagine someone actually
doing
but someone actually pick that and so
that was like a really exciting thing, and I got to fly to San Francisco and we had a Monsterhearts mini-convention
yeah, that was a really exciting thing and I was really surprised by
it's intriguing to see the different ways that people play the game
some people play it very much like a Buffy style adventure kind of game
for some people it is all about just like as much sex and violence is you can
possibly get
some people it's about exploring what it means to be a teenager
no monster stuff, it's kind just like this lens for understanding
what it means to be a teenager, and so it's exciting to see that range of playstyle
come out
I understand people can
take different nuances in their games
but is there something specific you hope people playing Monsterhearts will
take away from the game
an experience, a feeling you hope them to find, to have?
when i think about when i was a teenager when I look at my teenage siblings
a truth that is like really important is that these these people have
they have a lot of power they have a lot of desire
they have all the emotions and all the capabilities that adult have
the only thing that's lacking is they don't
know how to meet their needs, like they don't know how to make themselves happy
a lot of time
or they don't know how to ask for what it is that they want
that power can get abused really quickly and you can get thrown around the thrown
of each other and i think we have this
impression culturally of teenagers as being
naive or being not skilled are not capable or
not has developed as adults. I'm interested in Monsterhearts exploring like
this characters they they are powerful
the werewolf
can rip people open, the infernal can you know
the werewolf
can rip people open, the infernal can you know
if they want a new house the can just
ask the devil for a house, and they have it, you know they have a new mansion, like they have kind of
they have more power than they know what to do with, and I think exploring that is really
interesting
so i hope the people exploring that will also think what that rapresents, what that
metaphor is about
Last question, any future project you
can talk us about?
I don't really have a big future project right now uh...
and feel kind of weird because I haven't had one that I've been working on since a couple of months now
so that's unusual for me
as far as the time goes I'm
working on re-releasing Ribbon Drive
and so that's not a new design project
Sorry, you're working on?
and so that's not a new design project
Sorry, you're working on?
I'm re-releasing Ribbon Drive, which was out of print for a couple of year now
Sorry, you're working on?
I'm re-releasing Ribbon Drive, which was out of print for a couple of year now
but yes that's a game about road trips, ans self-discovery and these things
that's a project i've been working on but it's not a new new design
but i can't give you anything more
Just out of curiosity
uh... you'll
are you working in adding something to the manual for Ribbon Drive or just
re-releasing it?
are you working in adding something to the manual for Ribbon Drive or just
re-releasing it?
There's some clarification that I've made about how the game plays
that came out of
There's some clarification that I've made about how the game plays
that came out of
people playing it after has been released and saying like
that came out of
people playing it after has been released and saying like
well how do I handle this? There aren't any rules in the game for
like resolving conflicts between the characters and so that was something
that some people like they weren't sure what to do
and it felt like a game didn't support them uh... and so part of rewriting the
manual is pretty much done
about the ways the game actually support that
manual is pretty much done
about the ways the game actually support that
is really cool to hear
yeah and so I redesigned it to be more accessible, a lot of people find the layout to be really
beautiful and.. yeah it is, it's really fascinating
and it's also was also difficult for some people to access
people uh... you know with
would share a report about destructibilities issues down the text
is an-accessible so
[incomprensible]
Thankyou Joe for answering on our questions, you were very kind
and hope to ear news
from you
and uh...
Thanks again, it was a pleasure to talk with you.
Yeah, thank you for having me.
