Hello and welcome to our first Kavli Conversation of the fall 2019 semester
I'm Dan Fagin and I'm the director of the
science health and environmental
reporting program and the science
communication workshops at NYU and I'm
very excited to bring to help bring a
new series of conversations starting
with this one about an incredibly timely
and important topic that raises really
difficult questions for science
communicators and that is how to handle
Ebola and other highly infectious
diseases and we have two fantastic
guests and I will leave it to Lee to
formally introduce them but I'll just
say that I offer my deep thanks to dr.
Nahid Bhadelia and also to Amy Maxmen
for taking the time to join us and I'm
really looking forward to this so with
that I will turn it over to Robert Lee
hotz
science writer at The Wall Street
Journal distinguished writer in
residence here at the Carter Institute
of journalism at NYU and veteran host of
the cowboy conversations I don't know
what number were up to Natalie but I
think we decided it was over a hundred
recently it's a lot so take it away Lee
oh this is where I take a deep breath so
welcome to the callee conversations on
science communication and as Dan points
out this is the first in our fall series
they're sponsored by the catalyzation
and the NYU science health and
environment environmental reporting
program and just quickly to give you an
idea of what we have before us after
this evening on October 8th we'll be
talking about opioid addiction with
award-winning author Beth Macy author of
a wonderful book
and disconcerting book called dopesick
and Johns Hopkins University
bioethicists Travis reader who is
written quite movingly about his own
opioid addiction in his efforts to
control it on October 29th we'll be
delving into the power of photography as
a science storytelling device with
renowned National Geographic
photographer Lynn Johnson and Wesleyan
visual historian Jennifer Tucker and on
November 12th we will have a special
screening of a remarkable documentary
film called bias we will have the
filmmaker Robin Hauser with us and we
will be joined by a pioneering Harvard
social psychologist named mahzarin
banaji who will actually be rather
unique will have audience participation
some real-time cognitive testing on
implicit bias you think you aren't but I
can tell you in advance you are and
we'll explore that all of these of
course will be webcast
now those of you who are watching online
I encourage you to send us your
questions via twitter using the hashtag
cavalier convo and and we will ask those
for you and answer them as we go but we
are here now live from New York as they
say so please everybody this is a
conversation not a lecture we start this
conversation this evening at a
particularly troubling moment I think in
public health and science journalism
we're confronted with a range of
emerging diseases such as Ebola and the
resurgence of infectious diseases that
we thought well controlled and conquered
long ago I'm talking malaria I'm talking
measles I'm talking polio and new viral
infections such as SARS and MERS and
this week as some of you may know yet
another perhaps emerging
outbreak of Ebola in Tanzania with
controversy running between the World
Health Organization and the government
of Tanzania as to whether they are in
fact trying to conceal this epidemic
from the eyes of the world now an
emerging epidemic is its own kind of
warzone and places special demands on
doctors and reporters that's what we're
going to explore this evening what can
we learn from an evolutionary biologist
turned reporter and from an expert in
infectious diseases turn Ted talker
about the journalism of outbreaks and we
hope that their differing perspectives
will tell us something important about
how the news of this public health
journalism is changing and how it
reaches popular culture and how we can
all do a better job of it so we are
joined by Amy maximun who has come to us
from San Francisco this evening and dr.
najeda Delia who is joined us from
Boston now Amy's an award-winning
science writer some of you may know she
covers medicine evolution she's very
people-oriented
and her works appeared in Wired National
Geographic in New York Times she's
currently a senior reporter at nature
where she and her motorcycle are based
in San Francisco now her work is stellar
it's been involved in the best American
science and nature writing her coverage
of the Ebola outbreak has earned society
and journalism award from the National
Science Association of science writers
is named one or two of her honors the
big thing is prior to writing she got a
PhD from Harvard and then decided to
spend the rest of your life slumming
with journalists we'll find out why in a
minute
further than my heed is an infectious
disease physician an assistant professor
Boston University School
medicine and in particular she's medical
director of their special pathogens unit
she is responsible for providing medical
backup to the maximum containment
research conducted at the national
emerging infectious disease laboratory
at BU and her specialization is in
infection control issues particularly
with reference to emerging pathogens and
highly communicable infectious diseases
now for our purposes during the West
African Ebola epidemic she served as a
clinician in several Ebola treatment
units working with the will World Health
Organization and Partners in Health and
she's a subject matter expert for the US
Centers for Disease Control and
Prevention the Department of Defense the
Global Fund to fight AIDS and
tuberculosis and malaria and the World
Bank now what they have in common
actually no heed has been a source for
Amy
amy has written about now he's worked
but what they have in common is a
disease and I'd like to to start our
conversation tonight by asking each of
you to me this is a very strange and
frightening way to spend your time what
is it about Ebola in particular Amy that
attracts you
it's a funny way to put it but yeah I
find I find Ebola very compelling and I
think well one it is just terrible and
it's terrifying and things that are
dramatic or compelling so it is it's
it's awful and I think you know it's
been inside of Ebola treatment units so
she can tell you what it looks like when
within a few weeks you might have merge
to death so it's awful and it's terrible
also in other ways because it's the
people who are like caretakers of the
sick so somebody who's willing to you
know die to take care of someone who
gets sick often so it's bad it's it's
important than all of all so it's
interesting to me because there's other
things that kill people but Ambala has
lots of other layers so there's the
layer where there's kind of a cultural
layer where how it affects society like
if people become afraid of going to have
to help centers if people if there's an
economic impact people lose their jobs
and then there's this other component
where Ebola is a national security
concern for the u.s. so I'm sorry
national security concern for the US so
the u.s. is afraid of Ebola coming here
so unlike something like cholera
suddenly this is a political disease how
long is the flight from New York to well
to Sierra Leone it's yeah well it it
would be a short but you have to get
that I have like a long layover and
Casablanca or something but it's not
that far when people do travel yeah
there's direct flights from places to
you know between DRC and there's direct
flights and to France Belgium Dubai so
yeah so if these things travel so that's
why they're of concern to the u.s.
that's kind of the crudest way that
they're disconcerning and so then you
get politics involved and they're sort
of layers of that sort of concern so
question my friend
I didn't ask why us I asked why you
that's why me I'm interested in all of
those things so I think you know I left
I stopped doing science where I'm really
focused on one thing I was studying sea
spiders all focused on one little thing
with Ebola it's not this is about yes
the virus is interesting but on top of
it there's like 400 other stories that
are happening so as a journalist there's
one topic but there's lots of various
avenues to go down let me ask a
variation of the same question to you
this is a specialty in infectious
diseases of course there's no shortage
of infectious diseases in the US or in
North America or and we've just rattle
off the names of a few of them what is
it this compelling to you about this is
that the setting is it be it's just a
romance of travel and a disease I mean
seriously what is there something
scientifically about this that gets you
it's definitely not the romance of
travel yes I mean III think there is
something different about Ebola but I
think it both falls into a class of
organization organisms we don't know
much about you know I love this idea
that there's still these diseases that
we found out about since 1976 and we
still don't know the best way to treat
patients with this disease we still
don't know what to do when we find a new
scientific fact about it and how we can
make quickly make responsible public
health policy you know what I love about
it is
well it's the hardest part about it
which is the first hundred patients that
you see with this disease you're
learning about the disease from those
patients and you have the capacity to
either completely missed that
information or to take that and apply it
to the outcomes of the next hundred
patients and it takes a certain amount
of social responsibility takes a certain
amount of you know someone saying you
know what no this is important this is
about social justice you know so it's
not just about science it's about why
have we not gotten there since 1976
since we first discovered the bulwark
and that appeals to me and at appeals to
me about a lot of emerging infectious
diseases which is that sometimes they
get left behind because merger majority
of the time they are diseases that
affect poor people the effect areas of
the world that don't have good
healthcare systems and until recently
didn't have the ability to get on a
plane and potentially affect our defense
you know community now when you last
went to West Africa to treat an Ebola
outbreak when was that what country
Sierra Leone oh my all you works minutes
yeah now recently it's been lady Rhea
but during that epidemic it was all
serious and when you go you go alone you
go as part of a team you are in a 747
full of other infectious disease
specialists sir I I generally go under
the auspices of an organization so it
was the global outreach Alert response
outbreak global outbreak alert response
network with w-h-o the first time around
go on and then now the second time
around I went with Partners in Health
and so most recently that would have
been most recently in Liberia I actually
have because it's peacetime and
Treena outbreaks I am working there on a
grant that we received help build
capacity for doing research and emerging
infectious diseases through the NIH but
my home base is always my University I'm
the weird academic outlaw that like
thinks it's equally important to be out
in the world as to write papers about it
so don't fire me bu the so you're part
of a team you're part of a well
developed organizational outreach
medical Public Health squad Amy you
first started doing this as a freelancer
would you kind of tell us like how this
got started for you as a loner I mean
you don't have the institutional shield
if you'll forgive me yeah and there's
pluses and minuses to that too so I when
the outbreak in West Africa was
happening in 2014-2015 actually this
2014 when I I found it just super
compelling I actually had a job at that
time no where were you working what were
you doing I was an editor at a magazine
called Nautilus which is like a science
and culture magazine but I was kind of I
was an editor and I was learning that I
prefer writing and reporting so I was
for other reasons kind of already
thinking about going to freelance and I
also really wanted to cover a bola and
Ebola was not something that Nautilus
does are a bit more like on the
philosophical basic science side or at
least they were then so yeah I sort of
decided to quit and I got a grant from
the Pulitzer Center on Crisis Reporting
and they pay for travel contingent on a
couple of basically contracts not fully
but I had an editor from National
Geographic and an editor from The
Economist who said we'd like a couple of
stories so that's enough for the
Pulitzer Center to decide they would
fund my trip for two weeks and it
happened that when I got to Sierra Leone
it was so interesting that I extended my
ticket a couple of times and I ended up
being there for all of December and then
all of February can we unpack that word
interesting oh yeah d-day that was
interesting what as as a journalist now
okay so you're an editor at Nautilus and
you have a job that you have insurance
benefits you have you have a desk a desk
you said okay so you are just thinking
they're daydreaming in between improving
other people's copies you know what I
really need is exposure to an infectious
disease I don't I don't see that
completely as your genesis year what
what's going on what what takes you from
a nice cushy editors job that many of us
aspire to - the desire to kind of hurl
yourself you're freelancing yeah well I
think it wasn't that I I think if there
had been a full-time staff position for
a reporter that was reporting on a
bullet I would have loved that so I
really wanted to I missed I hadn't
reported and and written before that and
I was I realized I sometimes you have to
do something to know what you like and I
think I realized I'm more of a reporter
and less of I like editing sometimes but
I like having my own little baby which
is a lot like doing a piece do you have
your own little project that you're
working on so I missed that and then one
I thought it bola was compelling it's
just uh there were so many story I think
people at the time I remember going
there think there was gonna be press
everywhere there was not press
everywhere and there really so many no I
didn't run into a intentionally met up
with one reporter but a there was nobody
that I just ran into and everybody and I
realized when I got there Sierra
Leoneans that I met they wanted
attention so it wasn't like people were
dodging me they were like this is what's
happening you have to write about this
so it was sort of like
and once I was there I could editors
were hungry for stories because there
weren't a lot of people on the ground
and I was often correcting editors would
want a story about one thing and I would
say oh no no but this is what people are
really upset about so that was
interesting and I had a guest room that
thanks to the Pulitzer Center on Crisis
Reporting so you there was a job in your
mind there was a topic you wanted to
cover there was an assignment that you
wanted and in fact there is no job
called full-time a bola reporter so you
created it now you made that sound very
easy you skated over that very very
quickly and I'm still back I don't know
maybe I'm cynical but I'm I'm really
trying to picture that the editor who
will agree to be responsible for sending
someone into the center of an infectious
disease outbreak particularly caused by
a virus that in many of its
manifestations is so horrific that
people have actually written sort of
semi fictional bestsellers about it
and so you know here journalists know
how to do this so let's start with a
liability issue so no he who covers your
liability when you go to into a
situation I'm so glad you brought that
up because I was gonna say the
underscoring Amy's bravery on this I had
a vacua ssin insurance from whatever
organization I was going with evacuation
insurance like a matter back if I got
exposed I knew what was going to happen
next were theoretically I can't imagine
going under
- to that area during that outbreak
without having that background but just
historically - you went in December
right mmm - remembers September 2014 or
October 2014 that's when the NBC
physicians one of the NBC reporters got
sick and then also others are exposed to
him so we're talking about this hyped up
media situation where a reporter had
already gotten sick I forget his name
ashoka yeah yeah and so to go in after
having all that have all of that had
happened I think it's just beyond brain
can i clarify that though just to make
it sound that I'm not Cavalier wasn't
that I was little but I talked what I
did is I talked to some like some of the
scientists that are best known about in
Ebola like David Heyman one of the co
discoverers and he was basically like
listen this is how you get this disease
working in an ETU is very dangerous like
if you touch somebody in the late stage
of the infection that's bad that's
that's very dangerous but if you don't
touch people and you take all the
precautions not to touch I remember some
point being like should I use a lot of
Purell and he was like not gonna help
you but he was also like you know don't
get sick so I had sort of a I wasn't
completely cavalier about it and I tried
to you know I got as good of evacuation
insurance as one can buy but and I had a
my editor at the time at National
Geographic asked me for he was he was
great because although they were not
gonna provide liability for a freelancer
um he did ask for what's my you know
let's let's map out what happens when
you get a fever like what are you gonna
do
so is your blood type what's here yeah
well part of my plan consisted of
someone I had known through a friend she
was like in the British military like I
consisted of linking up with people I
knew through people who would get me
through to who would get me on their
helicopter that's something so plan but
there I had a plan and I also took steps
to not I decided I'm not going in to et
youth so the person who who did et you
stands for Ebola treatment units and so
the person who did get Ebola was a
photographer and he had gone into Anna
bolat treatment unit when nobody he
doesn't as far as I know he does I think
I once I wrote him to ask how he thinks
he got it he doesn't know but he did go
into those centers and I decided those
patients are so sick I'm not really
gonna be interviewing them and I'm
putting myself at high risk and I'll be
a huge weight on the system if I get
sick so I wasn't going into that zone so
I'm curious from your side and your
experience were you running into Western
reporters in this in this environment
you talked about the NBC reporter yeah
it abdun flowed there were a lot of
people so I was there through different
times in the epidemic and so at the
beginning there were a couple of people
there and then when that event happened
everybody disappeared you know they're
very very cute at all at any one time so
no I mean Amy's right there was really
nobody there actually on the ground to
the point where I think one of the
things though while we're in the middle
of all these things our organizations
are getting you know knock on the doors
that you have to give us an insight on
what's actually going on how are we
going to talk about this and explain
this to the public and in and so yeah
there was a real dearth of information
but I will say one comment on on this
that's totally not her to make her feel
Cavalier but my point was she fought as
Amy fallen because she's a scientist
before anything else she follows what's
scientifically right right I was talking
about the media hype around this whole
thing that would have it was an it was
insane I mean even yeah even for those
of us who had been there and we're going
back it was like why would you do this
you know like I don't understand it was
like no if you understand you know how
this disease gets transmitted measles is
a lot easier to get then then a bola
would be just fake that misunderstanding
a little bit more concrete so I seem to
recall that on you return from one of
your trips and then you encountered some
difficulty you want to tell us about
your apartment experiences yeah yeah I
so after the one of the one of the MSF
Doc's who was in New York City ended up
developing Ebola there was this outcry
is like how can you allow all these you
know doctors and nurses running around
again scientifically not valid because
you know the putting people in
quarantine who have had no exposures or
no truth
you know exposures there was a actually
a person who Baba put together a panel
that actually later on and that spring
of 2015 that that was unethical for us
to have done that because it basically
limited our ability to go back and help
our ability to continue our work I'm
giving that as a background because what
happened next was very much driven not
by science but by disappear unqualified
fear
and so all the five the five five
airports were assigned the United States
where everybody would sort of fly
through if you were coming from West
Africa and on my return my second time
around I ended up I won't say the New
York Airport it was and I was stopped
and you know went through the whole
event and and when I got back home I
thought as I was come on my transit back
home I got an email from my apartment
building saying oh you wrote that
article in NPR about your experience
treating patients are you still doing
this type of work and I was like well in
fact I'm on my way back and they're like
winner where are you planning to
quarantine and I was like in my
apartment you know and they're like no
you're not allowed to come back and you
know we'll pay you a month's rent to
stay away you know they can I at least
come get my stuff it's like really long
time since I've been in my apartment and
they're like no please send a family
member you know so I basically was
homeless after coming back the second
time around I had nowhere to go
thankfully my family you know lives
outside of Boston and I was sort of able
to track them down and yeah only family
puts you up after it oh well that's what
you know right what is that that's where
they had home is where they have to take
you in yeah exactly on the other side
what gave you the impulse to want to
write about your experiences
I think that all the bull responders
will tell you that when they actually
went in and you know Amy I'd love to
hear your thoughts on those as well
because I can't imagine that it didn't
impact you as well
we all had a certain amount of we had
two things one was a lot of survivor's
guilt
right because you're talking about an
environment where we're losing 60 70
percent of our patients and I we lost I
mean I lost so many call health care
workers who got sick from this disease
and you know particularly because just
there aren't enough resources to make
the care safe
I wanted similar to the impulse that amy
was describing I wanted people to know
that this is a disease it's not the
disease that's causing 60 70 80 percent
mortality is just the conditions and and
to demystify bowl all right if I told
you oh you have Harvard doesn't have the
same effect as me say oh you have it
bola right do you even know buddy knows
of Marburg is Marburg is the same kind
of virus in the same family as Ebola
Ebola is just occupied our psyche and I
wanted to demystify it and make it make
the disease about the people and that's
why I wrote that experience first
experience yeah so Amy one of the things
I found personally quite remarkable
about your reporting was the way in
which you confronted cultural
misunderstandings and kind of were able
to kind of bridge those four people who
were busy
blaming victims in fact for you know
their burial practices and things like
that so I'm curious is part of your
preparation how do you how do you ground
yourself in another culture from the
standpoint of an infectious disease
outbreak in sources of secondary
infection I mean is that something you
even thought about or was that something
you discovered upon your arrival about
learning about how cultures and things
like that yeah I mean I do a reporter
too so I I talk with people that's the
mean way so I think at first I'll have
stages of reporting before I might go
somewhere but Morland what do you think
I might do I always can read books about
the place get to know like some basic
history and then talk to people I think
before I went to Sierra Leone this the
first time I you know I'll talk to
anyone and that can be calling somebody
from the CDC in the u.s. who's been
there but it also can be I think I I
ended up having a really long
conversation with an uber driver who was
from Sierra Leone and he connected me to
his friend who is back and forth between
Sierra Leone and I they put me in touch
with like the person who's a traditional
leader of like the entire west of the
country so you got this through uber
yeah actually I think I was going I was
going to maybe Thanksgiving dinner which
was a quite a drive like my cameras I'm
part of Brooklyn that was further
further out there so no I'm not asking
you to apologize I'm just struck it out
you're I'm pretty much taking advantage
of your opportunities basically I want
to learn about the country and so
whatever conduit it is that's a and
that's before I get there and then once
I get there the same thing it's about
sort of talking to everyone you brought
up the I can talk about the that
particular story was this was the story
actually I the one story I had before
the trip and it was to National
Geographic and the story was about it
hi I'm the CDC and kind of sometimes
NGOs I feel like they pick a story that
they're gonna tell and that explains
things so they you know that's what they
tell reporters and there's always some
truth in it and there's always a bigger
story so the story was people are
getting infected at funerals and what
happened was there was a woman there was
a woman who died and through traditional
practices people drank water out of her
mouth and all of her family got Ebola so
this was kind of a classic case these
traditions of these people are spreading
a bola and then so I think you know so
two national Germans like this is
interesting our traditions changing and
I had a luckily I don't you know the
editor was interested but like you know
if you're working for a good editor
they're also open and they realize the
whole point of reporting is to figure
out what's really happening so once I
started talking with people I think one
of the first stories I heard was someone
who his family had taken their aunt who
was really sick - in a bullet treatment
unit and they never heard from her again
she died no one told them where she was
buried
that's that so why were the people not
taking you know their loved ones into
hospitals it was because of an
experience like that so I had nothing to
do with some sort of weird tradition or
different tradition it had to do with
like very kind of understandable place
and sometimes there were traditions and
people were changing traditions so I
think to answer your question is once
you get to a place you learn by just
talking with everyone and that's pretty
much what I did so one of the things
that often happens in those situations
as I am saying is of course you know
you're you're want to know you've got
your I don't mean this in a bad way but
you have your own cultural blinders and
maybe there's a language issue maybe
there isn't maybe you're not sure who's
sick but listen so you your initial
sources or the people you might reach
out to
are as guides kind of our NGOs are other
Westerners in this in this culture who
were there you know they're heroes in
their own story but but they have an
agenda tube from the storytelling
standpoint it's that is that something
you encountered was that was that a help
or was that a hindrance I think
everybody has their own thrown out their
own motives and I think if you're aware
of that I think yeah I think it would be
a mistake to I wouldn't say I would not
talk to somebody I think it's important
to also then I like to so actually the
way that I ended up talking to he'd I
think I think the way it came up out was
it was because I was talking to nurses
and I always go out of my way once I'm
in the country the whole point of being
there is to talk to people from that
country so of course there'll be some
bias I'll talk to people who are more
talkative and who are more open and if
there's if they happen to speak English
that's gonna make it easier even if I
have a translator so it's not without
bias but I think at that hospital I
talked to you know nurses who were the
local nurses working at the General
Hospital and they told me about night so
then I came to night so it wasn't like I
talked to night because she was at an
NGO and then I it was sort of the
opposite way around and and it's also
good reporting because you verify
stories that in that way you can kind of
once you hear the same thing a few times
you can start to think like this for
sure is a big deal because multiple
people have now told me like the same
thing so no I'm curious from your
standpoint now you're there because
you're
engage in treating trying to control an
outbreak of a horrific disease how do
you how do you as a as a as a doctor as
a public health specialist as the
researcher as a scientist how do you
handle you know being a source how do
you in those conditions how do you
handle being part of somebody's story
yeah this is a I think that was the
hardest part for me and engaging with
media on being on that side is that you
know so after the first time after I got
back so before I left there was there
was a lot of sort of interest for the
media about covering like you know why
does this person want to go like what is
their motivation you know this was right
around can't brently had come back and I
wasn't so much interested in that but
when I got back I was like you know
there is power and it's like there's
power and speaking out if we can be done
right if we can raise awareness since
there are not to have any people there
but my disappointment a little bit was
every time I try to you know engage
media I take a I'm just talking very
generally of course it's not true with
all everybody but I felt that I became
the subject of the story and that's not
what I wanted right I wanted people to
cover some of the stories that were
making this thing so appealing and
instead the easiest thing was to say oh
this person in front of me let's just
write this story through you know
through their story because that's yes
it could be appealing but it's not
original you know and it was that was
really hard and the difference I think
with not just the first time we met and
the work that we did you know and the
story that you had reported on all of
all of Amy's work in all her reporting
was focused on national health care
Luther's which was what was important to
me
is important to me that that's that's
really was one of the reasons that I'd
sort of kept going back is really
working with the national health care
workers and such and and navigating that
as it's hard for scientists to become
the subject of the story we're very much
comfortable in the role of being an
expert you know and and Amy did this
wonderful thing when she wrote the story
about the health care workers where you
know she included me as a verifying
source of yes this actually did happen
but she turned the lens to to the real
hero than to really the more complicated
stories they were part of the situation
rather than sort of the easy low-hanging
fruit which I thought was pretty
impressive professor Fagan you look
pregnant with the question so yeah I
thought I would ask the first question
just to encourage everybody stand stand
up behind me and also feel free to
consult me so we have you know quite
properly spent a lot of time talking
about reporting from there from the
place and that of course is part of the
gospel of good journalism and certainly
what we teach at NYU always go see it
yourself for all the reasons that we're
already learning in hearing these two
talk about what they did in Sierra Leone
and elsewhere but I I guess most of the
journalism that people read about Ebola
in the United States actually originates
in the United States probably
overwhelmingly
so I guess it would be good to hear from
both of you what do you see in the
differences in the journalism that
originated in Africa and the and the
journalism about Ebola that originated
in the United States and I and connected
to that question is what's wrong with
most of the journalism that we see about
hmm Ebola yeah that's a great question
so let me ask Amy to start by telling me
what's wrong with what you see in the
coverage by people who stayed behind
yeah with the caveat that there are of
course very good people but I think
things that what is interesting is when
and I'm yeah if you have the experience
when you're in the country sometimes you
see reporting about what's happening and
it's like so different than the things
you're experiencing in the place so
that's how it's like whole different
dimensions almost those one of the
things that will be important in the
media when you're far away and you're
there just a different set of problems
so okay so for example like you know the
reporting was done in the place will
often be very focused on what people are
seeing like I think Sheri Fink was doing
beautiful work in West Africa where she
you know really focused on the people
who live in the place who are sick and
that was really what's terrible and when
I was just in eastern DRC what's awful
is the conflict and the poverty there
and the way out also just conflict has
just those stories I heard from people
and how traumatized they are is just
overwhelming but then you'll kind of
what may be media who's here will be
talking about will be kind of these like
sometimes just policy issues like it was
like a question is it
when I was there it was in June so is it
time to declare a public health
emergency of international concern also
known as a faith so that was a lot of
debate so that's kind so it sort of will
be this bubble that sort of divorced
from like oh my gosh like can you
believe what's happening here like there
is huge trauma and there's a real
shortage of help for it and so I think
it's so to me that the focus is shifted
and then there's you know some reporters
who are just completely alarmist and not
even reporting I think very responsibly
about you know how LaBelle is spread and
it's there's always the isn't mutating
story that keeps coming up which you
know scientists are looking at that good
question but once we decide no we can
kind of stop writing that story now yeah
and there's so yeah alarmist reporting
when there is real alarms but they're
not reporting on the things that are
really warming and you have a sense of
the coverage here versus the coverage by
people who are on the scene I mean what
strikes you when you're home and you're
reading about things at a distance yeah
caveat it depends on the country you're
in because it depends on the freedom of
media and ability to write stuff and the
impact that has on reporters in those
countries so I'll start with that but I
think that clearly the heroes of the
stories change right I think that the
who's responsible or or the or the
culprits I don't know however you
describe it right the the stage is
always local and you know and so the
stories that I might see if I'm I'm in
Uganda I might be like oh this was
handled well this was not handled well
or whatever the story is but it would be
assigned to more local actors because
that's what people see in that's what
reporters see and you know and and as
Amy said when it goes farther away it
becomes more global and theoretical and
and policy-related yes it has real
implications but the granularity goes
away a little bit for sure I don't envy
reporters in covering emerging
infectious diseases right I find this
very hard as someone who cares very much
about this disease where I have all
these I want all these different truths
to be out there right so one truth is it
was a horrible disease and and and
people are dying not because it's a
horrible disease because there isn't
enough help as I'm sure I'm sad to hear
that still true and DRC I suspected that
it was but because that certainly was
true in in Sierra Leone but then there's
a thing of like but you shouldn't have
to worry about Ebola because we have a
really good health care system you know
like don't worry it's not gonna spread
like wildfire in the United States if
one patient comes here because we have
very good health care systems yes you
might have one maybe case if there
people are taking care of these patients
and they don't necessarily have the
training or the resources to do this but
it will not be the way it was in West
Africa but then also be like what you
should be worried you know like this is
a public health emergency and you should
really worry about the impact that has
on on everybody else here and over there
because it is going to impact how we
practice medicine here because
- we're gonna alter the way that we are
receiving patients in the emergency
rooms with thee but people there are
dying of a lot of diseases so I don't
just want you to focus on Ebola it's
it's not it's there's so many competing
things that truths they're out there but
I don't you know I don't even even as I
speak about this right now I can
understand why it sounds completely
schizophrenic but I don't envy you so
how do you broker that how do you how do
you tell six truths at once and but also
stay a journalist be great you're not
looking for donations you're not trying
to fund a cause you're not trying to win
sympathy for a beleaguered people or fix
a broken political system that's a
really great thing though what I'm not
trying to I don't have to try and do
anything or change anything I'm trying
to tell the world what I see and make it
engaging in as honest as it can be and
that's it so I don't have to you know
decide that I'm going to so I think
maybe a mistake is trying to tell people
you have to be worried cuz you're gonna
get this and die like I feel like I want
people to know this is happening because
it's awful and we should know about the
world around us and it's a problem to
ignore it so I just need to try and
write a story that's clear and honest
and engaging and if it has a good impact
that's great but that's not really my
number one goal I want ask a quick
follow-up question then so alright when
you both are there you know you're
clear-eyed baptized in the reality of
the outbreak and you see everything
better than we do but when you're back
here as a practical matter how do you
stay on top what do you monitor what
Twitter feeds do you look at if I never
go to the Democratic Republic of the
Congo where no gun or
Tanzania but I want to stay on top of
the of an emerging outbreak as a
journalist and I imagine the issue would
be the same for a physician specializes
in such things what are your tricks what
do you look for here that help inform
you better about there I mean I'm
definitely I watched Twitter but then I
also you know I reach out to people who
I know will know things and if you once
you travel a little bit you start
getting people's you know whatsapp
numbers and Facebook so I mean I can't
forget about these things because I will
I just have people who will continue to
ask how I'm doing from all of these
various places so I'm still stay on top
of it I can ask them how are they doing
and then I can this afternoon I had
coffee with actually somebody else we
both know who's the head of the Nigeria
CDC and so I can ask him about what's
happening there for outbreaks and also I
know he happens to know a little bit
about what's has his perspective on
what's happening in DRC with the amol
outbreak right now so I can so a lot of
it is just being a reporter and staying
in touch with the people who are your
good sources and who will just kind of
casually just sort of tell you you know
what they think is going on and you're
not taking notes or writing a story but
you sort of you sort of hear what's
happening that way what's the answer for
you
well we have as when the last question
you saw very clearly we have very
different jobs no but your sources might
be very helpful to me or you know great
I tend to follow it's a very small
community at least for emerging
infectious diseases researchers so I
tend to follow a lot of researchers
which I'm really glad there's a trend
towards more academics being on on
Twitter it's a pleasant of minus two
that right cuz you're just like it's
that is that an opinion or that data
proven are you like pre publishing
anyways but I follow a researcher
and I follow you know trusted reporters
and interestingly enough a lot of public
health leadership from a lot of the
countries that we are both interested in
as well as w-h-o and others are now
directly on Twitter sharing daily
information which is actually really
great so I tend to follow those folks
that's all Twitter and then other than
that I think for for me it's it's it's
my network of people I work with
it's fellow researchers people I
collaborate with you know people that
are in countries and projects that I'm
collaborating with so either in Uganda
or Liberia it's just there is there a
conference is there three journals I
should be reading oh yes so the American
Society of tropical medicine and hygiene
ASTM H the clinical infectious diseases
yeah sorry the infectious diseases
Society of America is the other one and
the Society of healthcare
epidemiologists of America are the three
ones that have really taken a lot of
have significant portions of their
conferences dedicated to some aspects of
these sources that I will look at these
journals but I can't
yeah you've been patient sir
so this question is sort of two things
there I mean this isn't that difficult
of a virus and there is an effective
vaccine as far as I know yeah so I
understand how it's difficult to get
that vaccine spread around the
population when there's an outbreak but
Candice journalist you take the vaccine
and lower your risk before you go well
it's an interesting question there is a
vaccine you have tell me what you think
of the vaccine and which strain is
effective again yeah I am we have a
vaccine against one species of Ebola
particularly the strain and of those one
species of Ebola but let's just say one
species of vole there are four others
and Ebola is one of three
other organisms they're part of Gila
viruses and which is part of a whole
network of viral hemorrhagic fever so I
think it this is important as a
distinction because I think people are
saying well it's all we have treatment
and we have vaccine but we only have
treatment or vaccine for one species and
the majority of the areas where where
these disease has happened multiple
viruses circulate so we've done we have
vaccinated over 200,000 people right now
with the rbsp vaccine but tomorrow if
there's an outbreak with another species
of zola we're gonna have to redo it we
think thank you as a journalist coming
into an area like that do you have
access to that vaccine you know I could
have asked for it actually I know
there's a reporter I know who's he's
dead front line I know he got the
vaccine when he was there so we couldn't
get it here you'd have to get it when if
I was in you know this it Benny in blue
Tembo the cities where it is and where
it's being given I could have asked to
be honest I think I was so aware of the
limitations and supply and this is just
to let you know how low I feel my own
personal risk is I was there for a week
in the hot spot and I wasn't going into
a bullet treatment unit so I honestly
felt like I don't want to use somebody
else's dose plus it takes like 14 days
to kick down or something like that so
wouldn't have helped me anyways so no we
can't get it here under a trial NIH is
having a trial but it's you have to know
where to look for it you have to be a
person who's going to be at a high
enough risk so a me would not have
qualified huh there you go so many of
this may never cover in a bola outbreak
in West Africa but many of his students
people like me who are just working
journalism could quite easily end up
covering a different sort of infectious
disease outbreak in the US be it me
CIL's or self-inflicted epidemics like
the vaping business is going on right
now
I wonder what have you learned as a
science medical journalist working the
Ebola crisis that might inform what you
do in a domestic outbreak here what are
the sorts of reporting techniques and
tricks that might be more generic for
this kind of situation
I mean I've certainly had the
experiences like waking up one morning
to a phone call from an editor who
wanted to send me into an infection zone
for SARS which is certainly much more
innocuous than than Ebola
but raises a lot of issues about access
quarantine and preparation what what
would you share with us I mean some of
the things I guess I I already I'm
trying to think of how to answer best
there you know learn the basics of the
disease how its spread how many people
it affects kind of who tends to get it
so I think that's how many people have
it kind of the basics who you know you
always want to make sure you have the
basics covered I think in any sort of
reporting so who what when where just
know those things first I don't know if
that then start reaching out to the
people I mean I learned almost
everything when you asked if I read
those journals so I think I did a lot
more often when I was earlier reporting
to be honest these days I start knowing
I learn a lot more from talking with
people so start start figuring out who
are the scientists who are you know the
lead researchers in this area that's
always a good way for me to kind of
start in and just start talking to them
because they
catch you up to speed the fastest sort
of a shortcut even having to answer that
question I think the tough questions for
me I mean I kind of always theoretically
knew it but going through the Ebola
experience made me realize that it's not
just about the disease right that
whether you die of a disease or not as a
function of you as a person you know are
you what kind of background have you had
have you had good health have you have
been able to access that do you know how
to deal with it you have this you know
the health care literacy to be able to
deal with it it's the disease of course
and it's the healthcare system and it's
this marriage of all three factors that
just plays out differently you know and
it's so yes the disease as always is
important but it's all those other
things that sort of decide whether you
live or die disease I think the
importance and so it's interesting
because it is harder the physician who
spends more of I do Public Health work
sure but like you know I'm a peon you
know compared to that right most of my
work is patient you know and and and and
direct patient care and other things and
so it knowing those sort of that idea
that it's all these other factors does
does make me feel a little bit more
helpless and makes and that's what's
kind of pushed me to be a bit more in
the public health arena as well your the
question please
so when you're writing or communicating
about something as serious as Ebola that
people are frightened about legitimately
and not legitimately how do you like
pick your words and craft your sentences
and and think about you know like the
weight of what you're communicating
without being like crushed on it under
it or you know picking the words that
are true that will you know go through
the editor and the copy editor and all
all the way up to publication that you
can stand behind yeah it's funny it's a
very good question I think I my enter
couldn't come tonight I feel like a lot
of my own personal like emotions over it
because you do see some very sad thing
that you can't change and it's not
uncommon that people I pour my source of
those stories I end up learning they die
and so it's a real thing and there's a
lot of weight to it and I think my
editor pays the price because of the
fights we get in what sorts of things
like for you know when you know I feel
like it's stories that are not
discharged if they want to take out a
sentence I'm like okay probably right
this time I have like sometimes there's
emotions attached to it you know like
when they're cutting somebody's one of
my sources out and they cut that
person's quote if it's something that's
something traumatic happened with them I
feel like I get really upset and I know
my editor is working for the good of the
reader so it's good that they're there
but we go back and I think there was an
example from the latest story I wrote
there was one line and nature likes to
be there trying to be concise so they
have a very strict word count which they
also understand people don't spend that
long on stories so I couldn't get into
the depth of like like what like I said
when I was in Benny
Tembo Andy steer see people are really
traumatized by some of the fighting
that's happening there and so and then
when you read reports it'll be things
like you know there's one group that cut
up a baby he'd like put it across the
street and they'll use women as shields
and things like that so people are
really hurt by these things but I can't
put that all in so I think at one point
I said something like you know this
group has killed 3,000 people since 2017
that's one armed there and and I said
massacred
I really because I think first I had
written like three sentences about it
but those were cut pretty fast and then
they changed my word massacred to killed
and I wanted to put in like massacred
with access to gun and then they
wouldn't let me have those three words
but I I fought to keep massacred and I
had to really justify like I feel like
kill is so clean and we're so accustomed
to hearing like oh Africa's bad people
are killed and I wanted to somehow pick
a word that would like drive at least
drive like some feeling like this is how
bad it is guys like so it is it's it's I
think about those sentences a lot and we
try and make it a nice mix between
concise and yeah brings it home so when
as a not now as a doctor treating a
patient but as someone with experience
of this firsthand who then tries to
write reach out to the general public
how do you answer the same question how
do you control or or guard your language
I was gonna say I don't have the same
limits as Amy does partly because when I
venture into that field people are a lot
more understanding that I'm not a
journalist and then a lot of times when
I write about these things they tend to
be a lot more first-person so I have a
lot more leeway you know I I think so I
wrote a couple of stories with NPR after
my experiences one was the personal part
of working in her bolo treatment unit
and then really was more evaluating
health systems aspects that could have
made the disease better I I think my
biggest battle is not falling into the
expert mode and then realizing that what
people really want to hear is what you
were saying is is it's the other way
around I tend to become too clean I
probably wouldn't use the word kill
because it's I fall into into the expert
mode so I have the opposite problem a
little bit I become too technical and
that's the way of disconnecting so I had
a discussion before we began here about
how journalism really grabs the public's
attention when you write about my health
my time or my money you've definitely
got the health covered but I'm wondering
you know until or god forbid unless this
is this this disease jumps the United
States that health issue is gonna be
rain somewhat abstract and far away and
is there a way to bring this story with
more urgency or relevance to to a
somewhat distracted American or even
Western public and or is it is it
somewhat destined to remain a story that
is somewhat mysterious and abstract
it's an interesting question Amy how
would you do that it's hard yeah I think
it's good I think the truth is it would
it will be hard for any journalist to
write a story that gets read you know
when I wrote one one of my sweaters from
Sierra Leone when I wrote about I wrote
I was upset about local health care
workers not getting paid yeah there's
all these donations so the way I drove a
home was to be like this is your
taxpayer money like when the when the
u.s. gives do you realize that's you
giving do you care where your money goes
so I tried to pitch it like that
you know to kind of put us in the story
but I don't know I hope I know I know
like after I talked to like I said there
was a reporter who got the vaccine he's
he's a videographer and I'm thinking
like that's great like he's a good
videographer and video is very powerful
so I'm hoping that there'll be really
more good reporting and it has to be
things like I mean I like writing but
now a lot of people are gonna read 5,000
words so I'm glad that there's gonna be
a video out there and things like that
some but no it's not simple how would
you answer that question
I mean is it bola just ajust you know a
distant humanitarian horror show that
we're watching
to remove or you know is is it a story
that actually has direct more direct
relevance and readers or viewers in the
u.s. so it's all come as a surprise to
anyone but I was a peace and Justice
Studies minor all the literature out
there about social movements talks about
our people more driven by you telling
them you know here's very money and your
time and your health is involved or are
they more driven by altruism and and I
think someone could correct me because
you guys are closer to all the stuff
than I am at this point but I think that
when people are driven by altruism they
can be a lot more powerful as of course
and so do we sell the this is a selfish
reason why you should do it or should we
sell that this is the right thing to do
and that's I don't know the answer to
that but if you really want the answer
of like how do you convince people
there's a selfish reason to do it
Ebola is a litmus test a litmus test for
what it all is a litmus test of how
we're all connected as a world or around
infectious diseases right Ebola doesn't
look like hemorrhage I say it as often
in Bolla looks like nausea vomiting
diarrhea and only less than 20% of
people have any hemorrhagic symptoms
I've seen five hundred bola patients
only in less than 20% had any kind of
hemorrhagic fever features right and so
it's early on in that disease it could
be any disease because a lot of
infectious diseases look like that and
the reason we miss outbreaks is because
health systems and all the things that
allow Ebola to wreak havoc and the
conflict that everything else all the
things that allow Ebola which is much
harder to get than a respiratory
pathogen or something else are exactly
the right setting for when there is a
pathogen that could affect us when it's
much easier to transmit what is much
easier to come here and we won't be as
prepared for it because you know
we have good health systems but if it's
a respiratory and I'm not saying
anything you don't already know we live
in the fear of a novel influenza
something that's respiratory transmitted
because I don't think anybody in the
world does that prepared to handle that
a bola is a litmus test for how well how
quickly diseases like the next big one
could spread in those scenarios and make
it around the world and that's the
reason to invest in this because we go
back and we make those health systems
right along with this response we will
do better in catching other threats that
come our way do you see it they me is
also a litmus test for good reporting I
don't know if I would go though I don't
know if I know I don't know if I'd go
that far I'm not sure how do you change
the question so what have you learned as
a reporter from covering outbreak in the
field that now informs your reporting on
other subjects then you're back home I'm
not covering them that's a good question
I think it's definitely made me more
aware of and reporting in general
reporting in places you know making sure
to go to the place I think stories that
do not include the people who get the
diseases are going to be flawed so not
so I think it's made me aware that you
have to question everything you hear but
you can't take anybody's word for it
really yeah and and I think that's some
of the big some of the big ones and
people who are even well-intentioned do
we you know who we think that we trust
who yeah so people might be have really
good intentions and we might trust them
but also question their stories a little
bit and
I think that's that's my kind of a
listen to me though it's deep in your
skepticism there that's always a good
thing
good question here how you both take
care of your own mental health working
on such a traumatic topic especially
such an urgent one excellent question
how do you keep yourself sane and happy
in the middle of all of this so I
started saying this a little bit I think
during the West Africa outbreak I'm
gonna start with some of the trauma that
I think the health care workers here had
but imagine the trauma the health care
workers here had and compare it to the
trauma that healthcare workers and
community members and affected countries
add and so I know I'm D personalizing it
a little bit I'm gonna come back to it I
think I think that the thing that keeps
me going is that there's still a mission
and that keeps me healthy the other is
actually being in a community of other
people who are doing that and sort of
who recognize what the immuno the
important work is and and having a lot
of hobbies you know if anybody tells you
you have a lot of hobbies because it
helps you disconnect from everything
else you do so I do photography I mean I
have no shame in like you know saying
this is I'm gonna take a vacation I'm
gonna take a ton of pictures you know
and disconnecting from work I think
helps a lot is there anything on a daily
basis in that situation I mean you
meditate for five minutes in the morning
Oh in the middle of your punching bag
you bring with you I mean it's curious
this is good in the worst months of that
outbreak I don't think I had a moment to
breathe to think about that I was an
auto pilot
Amy the same question to you I think the
short answer is I've you know day to day
I think when I'm reporting in the middle
of it I may I try and go easy on the
social things like you know go back to
my room at night and just be alone a
little bit make sure I have space like
I'm not gonna over over and same thing
once I get home from a trip that was I
saw a lot take it easy I'll kind of
thing a lot so I think just making sure
I have some some space and some alone
time and don't over occupy myself and
then yeah there's it's a form of and
maybe you feel this way medically I was
thinking of a doctor that I Risa this
time but for me personally I feel like I
want to do I want to talk about the
people who I saw is very heroic in me so
because you if you report on something
really bad it means the really good
people are really good so if I can kind
of talk about somebody who's just
completely amazing and a really dark
circumstance that makes me feel better
so it's kind of a and I was thinking of
the question made me also think of this
other doctor that I met in Sierra Leone
who then I ran into when I was in Benny
and this is in DRC I don't know if you
know Maher Toledo yeah okay yeah she's a
mean she's that partners in health and
she's well I think she wasn't what she
was there but anyway she's a doctor Anna
bola treatment unit and she works
throughout Sierra Leone outbreak in one
of their public hospitals and throughout
the whole time and she's just amazing
and treated hundreds of patients anyway
she's very cool but she was saying it
was kind of I can't remember the words
she used for it but she said it was good
for her kind of her conscious in the
second outbreak because I guess medical
care is a lot better right now yeah so
she was telling me that as a doctor and
I've
I had to deal with any of this but as a
doctor she was telling me it was
horrible in Sierra Leone so because she
couldn't monitor you know if she
couldn't monitor
I don't know basic things that were like
blood chemistry she couldn't give people
treatment she couldn't they couldn't do
basic things that she could have done in
Spain which is where she's from but in
this outbreak she's now able to like she
was like we have biochemistry machines
like we could like monitor blood glucose
like she was getting really excited
about these basic measures besides the
experimental drugs which are also great
but she couldn't now she was saying her
way of dealing with her past kind of
trauma was just to be able to see
progress so it's kind of cool that's
exactly yeah I was gonna say that's
exactly why I stayed and I work with
this project in Uganda it felt like a
full circle there's a project I
currently work with Uganda is viral
hemorrhagic fevers clinical research
centers again the ability to give the
the best care possible with better
resources and and and it to me felt like
coming full circle because that was the
biggest trauma for for healthcare
workers at least was you knew you could
do better and you know the patients in
front of you could survive and and they
didn't because you didn't have the
resources and you had to witness that
again and again her patient for the
whole time that you
ya know it's a it's a interesting
question maybe this in case I mean
certainly where I work and I know other
large news organizations that for
journalists who were involved in crisis
reporting I mean you know it's now a
pretty routine thing to offer sort of
trauma counseling afterwards and things
like that so I now have this picture of
you alone in your room pretending that
you're okay you know the question there
so my question is sometimes I feel like
some journalists tend to infantilize
these people like they don't respect
their food they don't see them as food
like grown-up people and like riebeck
demise in some way these people so I was
wondering like good practices to avoid
doing that because I really find it very
I know you know whenever I encountered
that sort of things especially like in
US European media yeah I had to avoid
the condensation the the condescension
excuse me the condescension of people
like me when viewing people in the grips
of the crisis like this but who are part
of a different culture and one of the
ways I can distance myself from the
danger is to pretend that they're
foolish and immature and have strange
and ridiculous customs that are putting
them at risk which of course I don't
share so I'm safe
I mean you've dealt with that we talked
about that a little bit with the burial
practices at the outset of this
conversation but Naheed I didn't give
you a chance to sort of explore that
idea but I think this question gives you
an opportunity well I was gonna say it's
not just in journalism he do that in
public health in spades we did an
economic development in spades you know
we tend to think that people are poor
because they don't know how to be rich
they're poor because and they survived
and they're actually more innovative
more resourceful than you know than any
of us who have grown up with a lot more
resources they have actually been able
to make life with fewer resources and
that in fact it's the opposite you know
III think that the whole people are not
coming to care cuz you know that's it my
my pet peeve of all things in Sierra
Leone was all this complain of like why
are people not coming to Ebola treatment
units you know and you've heard a little
bit about the way of all the treatment
units where I mean they have you've seen
videos you know they were overcrowded we
did the best that we could
part of what an Ebola treatment unit
does it is it isolates you from the
community and keeps you from
transmitting that disease but look at it
from the perspective of an individual
you have fever nausea vomiting diarrhea
you don't know if visible or not so
they're gonna take you to an Ebola
treatment unit you're gonna wait to get
your tests but you're gonna be sitting
around people who are gonna go on to get
Ebola why would you do that if you think
your chances of Ebola
getting Ebola are pretty low because
most of the time they're aware people
are surprised when I say less than 1% of
the population of West Africa was
affected by Ebola directly I mean huge
numbers affected other ways right
like chances where if you had fever
nausea vomiting diarrhea you did not
have a goal of you know but we brought
you in because it was the safest thing
to do in areas where they were where
there was disease and if you are someone
who thinks that they have Ebola do you
want to go into a treatment center where
there's so few health care workers that
they can provide good care to you where
you know people are walking around an
astronaut suit so would you rather spend
the last days of your life with your
family members
taking care of you which one would you
rather do I mean yeah it's a heart it's
not as easy as people think of like oh
people are just not educated and that's
why they're not seeking care they're
very logical reasons for why they're not
seeking care and they're very logical
reasons for why they're not seeking care
and DRC you know it's the trauma is the
fear the security issues it's just
distrust it's you know it's it's some of
these elements because they're parts of
yes care has improved but not in all
areas of DRC s what I've heard so this
gets it it's a good question because it
gets us something that journalists often
aren't very good at which is treating
the people they cover with dignity and
respect
do you have like a set of rubrics in
your head when you go into a new
situation like this to make you pay
attention to the people that you're
encountering under other circumstances
you might be culturally inclined to
dismiss okay yeah more talkative when
I'm in journalist mode so certainly I
mean all I could do is just try my
hardest to constantly just be humbled
and remember you probably don't know
where somebody's coming from you know
like yeah this I've even thought about
this word like saying people don't trust
the health system and I'm like not quite
right because you want to be like why
should they or where are they coming
from and yeah and I think you know I
learned and also I'm I I mess up and I
try and not mess up so I think that's a
big part of it there was like one a bola
survivor that I talked to a lot in in
Kenema in Sierra Leone and at some point
because I you know I went I spent Allah
I spent three months kind of total there
so I got to go back you know see a lot
of people again and at some point we
were just walking around and he told me
that like because when I'm questioning
I'm also wanting to get a story so
I have to ask a lot of details that
maybe somebody else might not this is
actually why I don't personally I don't
talk to I don't interview kids usually
because I feel like I don't really know
how to do that when we're going through
something traumatic but if it's an adult
and they want to talk and I feel like
we're there I you know if somebody's
like you know I walked over bodies to
get to the bathroom I'll be like about
how many bodies do you think so it's
it's pretty intense but I need those
details kind of because I'm telling a
story and also it helps people remember
because memory is funny and it helps
them be like actually it wasn't the
hospital that day I was in this so
anyway so you want to ask the details
but later I talked to the survivor and
he told me that like he was super
depressed after talking to me for days
didn't leave home so I clearly brought
up a lot of stuff that what happened to
me every time someone who asked me a
question of like well it was not just
when I got interviewed but when I talked
about it right because it was it was I
felt like this was part of advocacy I
would go and give talks you know I would
do because I do have a bias I'm very
open about that but every time I talked
about it it tore open a woman you know
it was like yes I have to go there to
tell you what it was like but the minute
I go there yeah and I think yeah so yes
it hurts people and I like still
sometimes I'll feel like okay I have to
make sure to go slower and I'll spend a
long time so even after we talk I'll try
and talk for longer after that or stay
in touch with that person somehow you
know if it's possible to stay in touch
over Facebook or something or what's
happen if they have those things text
messages they'll like at least it makes
me feel less cruel a little bit and it
makes me okay this is a person and like
engage with their life but it doesn't
always happen that way
so I guess the answer is to remember
that yeah everybody's a person and that
these are traumatic moments and I never
want to make if somebody doesn't wanna
talk about a thing first of all I never
make them but if they will just to take
time because it is really it's
traumatizing for them
I want to change the subject just
slightly I'm curious about your tools
when you were working remotely how do
you stay in touch with your editors
what what what do you use for how do you
record do you organize yourself right
and then in there in terms of your notes
do you save it all up and and envelope
and then bring them all home with you
and sort through when you're back in
their San francisco-oakland I mean what
let's start with that so so what are
your tools what are they what are the
good what's your field kit
I like typing more than writing so if
I'm talking to like a scientist or a
doctor I can be like hey can I just type
while we talk and then I'll type but
there's other situations where I'm on
the move or if I'm a computer would be
really awkward to bring out so I have a
notebook and I have a recorder I prefer
you know so yeah so my tools are really
pretty basic recorder notebook and my
laptop and then at night you know what
at night I try to do or if I'm in a car
going somewhere is I just quit and I'm a
fast typer so I quickly try and just
think of what are the most what are the
things that stand out to me that day so
maybe I had a conversation with someone
and I'll go and I'll tape little notes
to myself about you know even if I
wasn't thinking notes then and I'm not
gonna be quoting from this thing that
I'm doing from I never quote from memory
cuz I don't have a good memory but just
things to remember like oh yeah do I
remember that you know there was this
incident happened where these this crew
blocked the road I'm gonna you know
write down what that was like as quick
as I can on my laptop I like that more
than recording because I hate hate
transcribe
yeah I think hating transcribing is the
beginning of wisdom someone told me you
do something interesting when you're
working on a long story which is that
you pick a piece of music and and you
play that music yeah over and over while
you're working on a long piece why do
you do that well one is I don't want to
stop what I'm doing to have to figure
out what the play next and yeah I guess
it kind of helps me get in the space of
it because I want to put myself you know
now if I if I was to feature maybe I've
been not been there for a month or
something so I want to put myself back
in the place and I guess somehow it back
and remind 80 somehow it puts me back in
the it it helps me be like I'm in the
zone of doing this thing now I think it
helps somehow memory a little bit
you told me that people treat you
differently when you're approaching them
as a doctor and when you're approaching
them as a writer as a journalist I guess
I don't know if I deserve that label
well let's be aspirational okay I wonder
if you shared that a little bit about
that with us because many scientists now
of course have the ability and the
machinery social media or whatever they
can take their stories directly to the
public but it it then changes what
they're doing and it kind of changes
their role and you've gone back and
forth so I'm just curious about your
sense of how you get treated as a doctor
and how you get treated as a writer if
you don't like the word journalist right
well I I find that people are for clear
reasons they think
are a lot more open but I'm just one of
their community you know and versus if
I'm approaching them as hey I'm gonna
write about this you know I'm coming to
you as a journalist or whatever and I
think it just you know digging that a
little bit more I think it's partly
because people are a lot more cautious
to active people academics researchers
doctors scientists tend to be very
cautious when we talk to media and the
reason why is there's one of the four
spheres we have is that we give the
wrong information or that information
it's not transmitted the right way and
it has an impact when people in a way
that is shouldn't write so perfect
example is a long time ago I was
interviewed about you know about where
the virus may survive after someone
survives Ebola and you know I'd given a
certain number of sites and then
somebody had put an extra site in there
that I'd not said it's such a small
thing to them but I was like no because
now everybody's gonna think Ebola was in
the knees you know like it's a big deal
and like all these survivors are gonna
think that Bible is in their knee and
like it was it was Manoah had to like do
all the stuff about like no you have to
amend that you don't understand it's a
public health impact we fear that our
language will hurt the very people that
we are trying to help and that we will
say something inexact and we will spread
misinformation right so people a lot
more careful when they speak to someone
who you're just having a conversation
with because you're sort of having a
casual conversation and you and the
implicit caveat and earn certain
uncertainties are understood versus if
you speak to a journalist it feels like
now it's your responsibility to be as
concise as accurate
as you can because it's going to be on a
bigger fuel and that's why I think
people are a lot more closed on when
they talk to journalists in my field so
I'm curious when you call people as a
doctor do they returned your calls more
quickly if you call them as a journalism
I haven't had to call them as a
journalist that much it's just a few
times yeah I often call our email people
and I say hey can we talk about the
study findings you know can you can you
I'm having trouble figuring this out and
putting this together with the rest of
my like understanding of this you know
can we have a conversation people who
are sure I'm busy but I'll talk to you
next week
people are very open about that because
I think it's in the the best when
science has done well it's collaborative
because we're all building one big body
of knowledge and we're just patching on
stuff over time and peeling stuff on and
patching it on again and that is a
collaboration you know so we tend to be
a lot more collaborative or at least the
best of us tend to be collaborative
maybe at the heart of this kind of
reporting it seems to me more than other
subjects is uncertainty uncertainty
about outcome uncertainty about fate
uncertainty about what causes panic and
what doesn't
as a journalist trying to broker this
for a broad lay public how do you handle
uncertainty how do you communicate
uncertainty what's what how do you
approach that
um well I guess is to be clear about
when something's not known you know
there was this study on the vaccine
that's being used right now and I know
that it's not a controlled trial where
they they came up with more than 97%
effective so I think when it first came
out I just said it was probably really
highly effective and I'll know but it's
not a trial so I think I try and couch
things you know as uncertain when I can
and as few as if as few words as I can I
was gonna say something about I was
thinking of when if you don't want when
I was like talking I was just thinking
of something when I can see why a lot of
scientists actually is scientists and
sometimes aid groups get really worried
about talking to the press and people
usually respond to me but I've had a
number of people say like but I'm not
going to talk to you unless you make
sure that you show me your story ahead
of time and I can make changes and it's
because of accuracy and a lot of them
are for reasons that she's talking about
that are very real like we don't want
somebody to panic because now you've
told them that the bolas airborne it's
not it's not at all so I have like a set
of things that I say that will win over
some people and not all people and the
people who went over okay we can go but
what I like to tell sort of like
scientists or you know people who are
afraid to talk with me because forget
very good reasons I'll say like first of
all you know look at my past work see
that I'm really gonna try and get this
right like accuracy is very important to
me and also like if there's a particular
thing that you are really worried about
like let's talk about that too like tell
me about the fact that like you I have
to say
if Ebola the remains of somebody's eye
can it be transmitted like let's talk
about your fear of of where they're
reporting to go wrong and that usually
is really helpful because a lot of times
it's things that I wouldn't have even
thought of but the scientist is telling
me it has already experienced that thing
and they're like ready to to tell me
about you know what they don't want me
to mess up on and that's I find that to
be really helpful when I went to DRC
this last time with the World Health
Organization it was sort of the same I
was I don't I usually try not to embed
with groups but it was a conflict
situation I wanted to be in their
armored vehicles when I was in places
that were risky so you know but I we
talked about things up front no I'm not
gonna show you the draft but tell me
what you're worried about
just so you know and when you're when I
you know will upset ground rules right
off the bat sort of like how this is
gonna go so yeah if I read off the
record will do it I'm curious so how
would you negotiate that from the other
side what do you what kind of test do
you administer it before you decide
you're going to talk to a journalist
yeah I think the prior work part is
really important to me as and that's
just a trial and error I mean I have
been burnt in the past and now there are
people that I know report with with that
kind of care and they understand that I
would love that as people said tell me
what you're worried about that might
come out wrong because I won't like I
have like I feel like if I say this
wrong I don't want this to come across
this way here's my fear of why I want to
say it this way and I hope that you know
even if you don't use my words that you
understand
where I'm coming from I would love that
I'd fit the but the issue I think
inherent in our field an RFI our field I
mean subset of infectious diseases folks
I work on emerging infectious diseases
is there is uncertainty and we are just
understanding these diseases and as data
comes out we're negotiating that against
the existing body of knowledge and we're
trying to figure out what the right
thing to do is you know it's a perfect
example is if you might remember during
the West Africa outbreak CDC suggested
personal protective equipment and then
they changed it maybe does it didn't
make the major media stuff but people
who are like CDC knows nothing
you know why do they change the personal
protective equipment like how did they
did they not know like this could hurt
and the thing was it was changed through
practice it was changed through people
learning in the field and then it was
then adapted into policy which was then
negotiated into practice for everybody
everybody else and it's it's such an
evolving thing for us that we're afraid
of also being like caught in a static
moment where we might someone said
something stupid and that turns out to
be completely false that's why you'll
never hear a say like I'm a hundred
percent sure you know except for the
vaccine autism think I'm hundreds you
know
vaccines do not call so maybe maybe this
is the last question I want to ask you
so there you know outbreaks continue
there may or may not be an outbreak in
another country where are you packing
your bags I think there definitely will
be an outbreak in another country and I
think we can I think well there's things
that are predictable there will be an
outbreak in another country in it the
place where it will explode and get bad
will be in a place that has a very weak
health system and is like I'm stable
that's everything that now he was saying
we're so that's expected and I would
hope that we could figure out that maybe
by helping those health system
we'll have both of those but am i
packing my bags yes I definitely like
reporting on this sort of thing I mean
it's I think it's it hits it ticks a lot
of boxes it's important to me it's
there's you know to the extent that
stories are interesting people kind of
overcoming challenges or battling
challenges it it takes those possible of
being a good story pretty easily because
yeah there are incredible people and
yeah I'm interested I just got my like I
reboosted my vaccines not for a pull-up
further the other things just thinking I
don't know what I'm going but yeah of
course I'm gonna go and something
happens well I can just tell you earlier
we were talking about litmus you know
for a good reporting I can say this was
litmus for a great Cavalier conversation
and it's gonna this has been thoughtful
and intimate and honest and I thank you
and our audience very very much for what
we've done here this evening
