Hey welcome everyone my name is Dan
Fagin I'm the director of the science
health and environmental reporting
program here at NYU we are taping which
is why I always do this introduction at
the beginning thank you very much for
coming I know Thanksgiving week is it's
tough but we appreciate your coming
because we have an amazing guest someone whose work I've watched for a long time
and someone I've known for almost as
long miles actually worked with some of
our students he was reminding me about 6
or 7 years ago on a story about the
carbon footprints of presidential
campaigns and that was fun and he's he's
put me on the air a couple of times
which is a dangerous thing to do but but
he has made so miles were very grateful
that you came up from DC and
without--without I will turn this over
to Lee Hotz distinguished writer in
residence here at the Carter Institute
who will introduce miles more formally
thanks thank you Dan
so welcome to inside out really
gloriously warm and clement evening it
makes me think that we're at the
beginning of our fall series but not at
the chilly conclusion of it but indeed
we are and this is the last and
culminating session of our inside outs
this fall and for those of you who
haven't joined us before we just tell
you that what this is what we were about
this evening is that this is our forum
for investigating the best of our craft
by putting those who have practiced it
at the height of the profession under
the lens of our sustained attention and
our tool of inquiry this evening is a I
hope in invigorating an intelligent
conversation about the nature of science
journalism in the early part of the 21st
century although it does feel like the
centuries been going on for an awfully
long time so
and as we get along and this is very
important as we get rolling I invite you
I insist that you become part of this
conversation this is not a lecture this
is not simply a Q&A that I'm going to
conduct with our distinguished guests
this is a conversation that requires you
so on that note let me just tell you
that our purpose this fall has been to
spend time to visit with a series of
contrarians people editors reporters
broadcasters who have made their success
in science journalism essentially by
swimming against the mainstream and
tonight we take the measure of a
commitment to science journalism that
has definitely gone against the
prevailing trends of broadcast
journalism we welcome you
Miles O'Brien thank you a veteran now
independent journalist who has for much
of the past generation focused on
science technology and aerospace in a
medium where that kind of informed
coverage is often scarce and at a
premium he's won numerous awards over
the years including a half-dozen Emmys
and a PD body award and a DuPont Prize
for his coverage of Hurricane Katrina he
is currently the science correspondent
for PBS Newshour he is also a producer
and director for the PBS science
documentary series Nova but for many of
you may have known him at for the Y just
about half of his 32 years as a
broadcaster he was the voice and face of
science for the cable news network he
covered science the Environment and
aerospace there and anchored their
various programs and we were talking
just before this a little-known thing
now that he was on the on the boards I
think to become the first journalist in
space on the eve of
one of the shuttle disasters and that
program was shelved he is someone who
among his many accomplishments is also a
pilot and one of the things that we'd
like to talk to him about this evening
is how these side skills shape and
inform one's coverage both is the kind
of matter of interest for viewers and
readers but also how it shapes your
approach to various kinds of stories but
I'm a big on origin stories and I'm
talking about of course at the the late
stages of a distinguished career and
what I'd like to do for a minute of
course is go back to the beginning and
miles I think met the late stages well
that's that's better than that's been an
expert and it's better than end stage
you know it speaks of maturity and poise
you know I'm distinguished in your but
not in stage neither that too the light
still shines okay good all right but you
know if I had looked at you when you
were coming out of high school and into
college Barry the last thing I would
have thought is you'd have ended up as a
science journalist you were a history
major that is true
I've heard it said by a closed source to
you I think it was you described himself
as a dodo when it came to science tell
us how you got into this well now I'm a
dodo because of the last one standing is
I I was a history major I'm sorry I will
confess that to you all all of you
actually know things about science right
so that's good that's really good I
somewhere along the way while I was
always kind of interested in the cool
things that I that science is it wasn't
taught to me very well it so I decided I
wanted to be a history major at
Georgetown and I was really I was very
interested in journalism and you know
what I'm into now and so I didn't really
take a lot of science and I never
envisioned myself as a science
correspondent and so I you know from
Georgetown
took an internship at NBC one job leads
to another and I was working in local
news stations for a dozen years and
basically going around chasing fires and
and dead bodies and crime scenes and
that kind of thing and I found myself in
Boston Massachusetts in 1992 and I was
sitting in my cubicle working on my
piece on deadlines and the person next
to me hung up the phone kind of loudly
and said ah geez I don't know these
people that kind of thing I said what's
that all about she said well you know
that science do you know anything about
science I said well not really why do
you ask
she said well you know CNN is looking
for a science correspondent and I said
really and I said and she said I can I'm
not going to apply and I said really
you're not going to apply would you mind
if I had called up that person because
at that point I didn't really know much
about science but I knew CNN seemed like
a good place to work and so I managed to
I called up the science editor at the
time that CNN Bailey barish who was a
formerly a molecular biologist she knew
science she actually really knew what
not about science and I managed to
cobble together a tape that had a few
you know enough somewhat technical stuff
on there to get me an interview and this
interview was two days in Atlanta two
solid days and I went to audition I
auditioned I was on camera they actually
sent me out on a story which I had to
you know shoot and produce and write
which they paid me for regardless and
then there was the the matter of the
written and oral exam on science
now this was very interesting for the
history major have been chasing bodies
for a dozen years and I they asked me
things like this is 1992 they asked me
about climate change and I thought it
had something to do with the thermostat
in the room I really didn't I had no
idea I was not paying attention to
scientific matters and so I flunked that
miserably so I got to the end of this
long gauntlet after two days I was
exhausted and I got I was in front of
the president of CNN at the time Bob for
nod it was a very gruff you know salty
guy and he's sitting at his desk he
doesn't even look up from the dossier of
mine that he has in front of him and he
says well obviously you don't know shit
about science I said and this is one of
those moments in your career way what do
you know what do you do right I mean you
guys don't have to do that you actually
know shit about science but in my case
what did I do and I was like I really
wanted to work at CNN so and this is
right through the Hail Mary I said well
that's exactly why you want to hire me
and at the time I actually thought that
was kind of a line but it's actually
true because what I as I elaborated
further as I was rising to the occasion
I said I said you know your audience
doesn't know anything about science
either and I'm not afraid of science I
think it's kind of interesting it's just
another complicated subject and I think
I can figure out a way to explain it and
besides I got Bailey here who'd actually
know science so you know I've got my
back covered so that was enough and I
actually thought I'd kind of talk my way
into a job and I move out of the science
unit as quickly as possible and I showed
up and the first thing I learned was I
was right because you would you know you
walk into a lab first of all no matter
what discipline of science you guys all
have studied you're gonna if you get
into science journalists and most likely
certainly am where I was at CNN you're
covering the full waterfront of science
and technology so even if you know one
discipline you may not know a lot of
things about another so that's that's
one thing I mean what's good about
people who have learned science and
really know what did you understand the
scientific process you understand the
value of peer review all those things
that are really important but I figured
that out pretty quickly but what I
learned was if you go in there as the
history major and just say you know to
the Nobel laureate literally and say you
know I'm sorry I'm I'm an interested
curious history major you
explain it to me or else it's never
gonna get on CNN it was an amazingly
disarming way to get an interview going
and get people thinking outside their
box of all their their jargon and their
lexicon and and trying to come up with
analogies that would work for a mass
audience so and then as I went along I I
discovered I just loved the subject do
you call your first sorry CNN
my first story at CNN well the one I
went down and actually shot on spec
before I even got the job so that would
be my first story they sent me over to a
skyscraper in Atlanta that had a really
cool HVAC system these were the days at
CNN when there was no story to arcane it
was well I was about six buildings and
it was a recirculating system and I
don't know I
you were you were at a fledgling Network
in Atlanta yeah in the in a part of the
country where it is said with some truth
that civilization is not possible
without air condition yeah so this was
really important this is a lead story ya
know it's curious that they would think
this is science well that's interesting
too because I think that was just
low-hanging fruit to get him at the door
I think one of the first really hard
science stories I did it within like my
first trip out was you remember
buckyballs sure so buckyballs is a great
story do you know what I'm talking about
these are you know graphi you guys know
this stuff I don't have to explain it
you know it better than I so you know
buckyballs is one of those things it's
all these really cool potential
applications that haven't happened and
still have it really really and so you
have to throw it with Patel yeah and you
have to explain this something you know
something in a nano scale and which you
have no pictures of of course except for
animation and I remember that was the
first time I was really challenged to
try to come up with really you know
terms and expressions that could
transcend the world of science and you
know really when you find yourself in
that spot between the world of science
and a mass audience and it
and you realize how important you are as
a translator not you can't you got to
make it simple enough for people to
understand it obviously but you have to
be true to the complexity somehow and
that you know walk in that tightrope is
kind of where I've been all my career I
mean most recently I did I just did an
OVA on the missing airplane which has
been like my cottage industry for me
lately but and we did this thing
explaining I have you filed the missing
airplane much I don't want to bore you
in Malaysia it's the Malaysian flight
basically there was a method that the in
marcet satellite company used to try to
locate where this plane was and it
basically used Doppler shift it was it's
a fairly complex thing and I see it took
a good solid two minutes out of this our
film to go through this and so I brought
in this engineer who had consulted with
me on this as satellite guys I had him
watch it in person there with his wife
who knows nothing about it and the - I
played it for them and at the end of it
he said that's the best thing I've ever
seen explaining this and she said oh I
finally get it and I was like you know
what that's that's my career in a
nutshell trying to get those two people
happy and the trick was the trick I you
know I mean it's you know the trick is
I'm just dumb enough to not know enough
to have to make myself understand it in
a way that it's at a level I guess you
know I mean I this is and going through
it constantly and you know frankly i sat
there back and forth with the editor who
you know you know he knew even less
about satellite so we would go through
try to explain these things to each
other and it was kind of like a little
Socratic dialogue that we engaged in and
eventually we ended up with something
that was that had thread that needle and
it's a great moment and it's these are
so these are the moments you will
undoubtedly find yourself having a
little scientific nerd happy dance
someday you know
so I'm curious now technical coverage of
any sorts challenging anybody who tries
to sort of do it but I I've always had a
sense that it it poses a special
challenge for someone who's trying to
tell their story a technical story
exclusively in video a text journalist
can you know integrate things and
digress and count on the reader to skip
ahead if he or she gets bogged down you
know but you really have got like a
second to second attention span use that
have had to deal with and I'm wondering
how you harness visuals in service of
that yeah I mean that was it the third
person that was a part of that process
was the animator who you know we you
know sat down with him and you know I
the one thing is over the years - I've
called you know I've got this you know
cadre of people who I can call upon who
will you know give me some free advice
and there's there's a company and
outside of Philadelphia that does
satellite tracking that's what they
provide satellite tracking information
and I've gotten to know those people
over the years and and they help
visualize those things so I kind of I
got them on a conference call and I had
the editor and the animator and we're
sitting there so so if we drew a picture
of the thing doing this would that be
accurate or not well that wouldn't be
entirely accurate well would it be wrong
and they said well no no it wouldn't be
wrong but it wouldn't be the most
accurate you know and you go back and
forth through each of those shots just
like that well so how much should have
wiggle how much how much did the
satellite go down across the equator
well if it's if it's accurate you know
you wouldn't see it right so you have to
you have to go through yeah there's all
these little trade-offs if you have to
go and in the end you know you go for
that moment with the engineer and his
wife but it's I always try to be true
you know first of all to my my own
understanding of it
now I assume I you know over the years
developed enough technical knowledge
that maybe I'm not the best judge
anymore and so you know then then you
play it for the executive producer at
Nova who you know she's obviously seen a
lot of Nova's before but she has a very
you know high bar on getting things down
to a simple audience a simple level so
let's talk resources into the excuses
for is an example for a minute so at
this level so how many people are
actually involved in putting together a
two-minute or a three-minute science
video at this at this level because
today so many of us you know we are in a
world where we do video by pointing our
iPhone at something and then throwing it
up online
maybe we edit it a little bit maybe we
have like two people but I'm kind of
curious from your standpoint because of
course your working career kind of goes
the arc from you know stable traditional
broadcast to quite agile more more
modern technological video production
where you're using digital to set and
the other thing in what I want to talk
about a little bit about what it takes
old-school and now what it takes
new-school well you kind of have to
throw away a lot of what you learned
yeah it's you know but that's what
forged you so let's linger so I so when
I first job in television it was in st.
Joseph Missouri in 1982 and you know we
rode horses to work and stuff anyway so
but it was we shot I was a one-man band
and we shot at that time on three
quarter-inch tape which which required a
camera with a cable attached to a very
heavy recorder and you know was real but
I learned how to shoot in the course of
a day I learned how to shoot edit
produce a newscast write the newscast
and I ran the teleprompter with my foot
you know all the course of the day was
like it was like my grad school only I
you know I was getting two hundred
twenty bucks a week hey st. Joe so that
was a great experience which I have
drawn
really throughout my career now when I
was at CNN you know it got to the point
when I was anchoring the morning show
I'd have you know you know Mike an
entourage when you go and it was like it
was kind of ridiculous it's actually
hard to to get any kind of real story
when you show up with you know a couple
of cars with the people and so then
suddenly I'm on the street because
they're in its infinite wisdom CNN
decides science and technology is not
that important and gets rid of the
entire unit and it will talk about yeah
we can talk more about that but I mean
the question is how do you make a living
doing this
suddenly I'm working for the NewsHour I
get a fixed price per piece and so every
dollar that I save is a dollar of my
pocket and I have to be very efficient
about how I do this especially if I'm
going to a place like Fukushima or
wherever there's huge costs involved and
so you know the minimum is myself and an
editor that's you know that's know
that's absolute minimum but usually it
myself a photographer and editor so you
minimum of three but then you know
sometimes I bring in on occasional
shoots I'll bring a sound tech
occasionally occasionally I'll bring an
associate producer in the mix depending
on how complicated the shoot is but I I
really judge I each shoot depends on a
lot of factors one of the things I try
to do is like for example two weeks ago
I was out in San Francisco and I was
shooting all or portions for separate
stories for the news hours so that has
obvious advantages if you can lump that
kind of stuff together and bring the
crew out and and save on your travel so
so you have to you have to think in a
very different lean way so there's a big
management component here there is and
you know the gear has done it you know
technology has done us a lot of favors
right I can you know for the you know
eight thousand bucks I have a Canon
camera that is a spectacular full-frame
image it's it's as good as any you know
any high-end camera and it's it's you
know that's a fractional well you know
what you normally would have spent in
the old days and on TV when we were
buying video cameras when they first
came out so and certainly in constant
dollars definitely so so the technology
helps I mean you know you you can
collaborate with people all
the world using all the you know Dropbox
and so forth and you know scripts on
Google Docs says it and million ways to
kind of navigate this without you know
it costing nearly as much as it would
cost for CNN to do the same thing and
frankly your your closer to the story
because the leaner presence you have if
it's just you in a camera and you and
one other person in the camera it you
know it's I mean it can be very
overwhelming when you show up with it
the whole crew and I feel like you get a
more genuine product oh yeah I'm sorry
oh yeah pardon me first yeah yeah I was
wondering if you could talk a little bit
more about your you're kind of lean rig
you said you have a canon full frame
like is it like I have a Canon c100 okay
I chose the c100 over the c300 because
it's about half the cost it's about I
think it's about it was about seven or
eight thousand dollars in the c300 is I
don't know it's gone down a little bit
this is in the thirteen or fourteen
thousand dollar range and so when I
shoot for Nova they require a higher
bitrate on the recording and so I use
the Atomos ninja for the recording deck
on top of that so I get a higher bitrate
which gives you higher quality but for
the news hour they're happy with the
c100 and that works well and what I like
about it is you know it's not a running
gun camera but you know to be able to
use the Canon glass is fantastic
well that's email you stand the standard
lenses right yeah so any any SLR lens
and so I mean the quality you get the
you get the everybody wants the shallow
depth of field these days and all that
stuff so it's it's a great camera for
the money I mean really when you think
about what you're spending for it even
with all the lenses it's still a
fraction of what you know yeah well you
wouldn't have anything of comparable
quality of generation ago and then what
about your for the audio are using lav
mics are using like a boom like
sometimes I'll go in and I'll bring a
tech if we're doing to camera interview
a lot of times I'll sit down on certain
interviews and I'll set up a to camera
in which case I'll bring in a tech and
we'll do what we'll do is do two lobs
and now I just have the the Sennheiser
those little Sennheiser's and I can't
remember the model but I can get it for
you if you want you know that I don't
there I think there are a thousand bucks
they're not that bad for a cent and and
then what I'll do is I travel with a
shotgun and a boom pole and I always
have it there because even if I don't
have a tech with me and I'm with the
shooter if there's some audio need I can
I can run the boom Pole if need be to
get that sometimes you're in a situation
where you have a lot of you know a lot
of people are talking at once and it's
not practical to put a lob on everybody
and so it's nice to have that capability
as well but generally what I do is just
get the I just put the shotgun on the
camera and you know grab the natural
sound that way do you have a lens of
choice like what's your well I use the
17 255 which is I like having a
wide-angle onboard and and that's for
most run-and-gun you don't really need
the telephoto I shoot most of the
interviews though in the 82 - what is
the the beige one the 82 205 or whatever
- 80 to 200 I guess Oh oh yeah that's
just that's a really beautiful lens and
when you sit down and dial that in about
80 or 90 millimeter it just makes people
look fantastic and I travel with a I
have a macro lens that's I highly
recommend that if you're doing science
stuff because you know if you're
shooting stuff that's on a slide or in a
lab or whatever the case may be it's
really nice to have macro capability and
then I have a fisheye as well which I
use you know when you're in when you're
in a cockpit or a car that sometimes you
want to put that in there and I actually
I have one of these the sony alpha 5 or
6 thousands of camera but it's a tiny
little it's a really nice little kind of
pocket camera which has an adapter for
it's interchangeable lenses and it has
an adapter in all my Canon lenses will
go on it so it's kind of a nice backup
and it's also can you can put it in some
tight places and then of course I travel
with about three or four GoPros and then
all kinds of mounts for them and we're
talking how many cases of stuff let's
get a metric so I've got I've got one
long
case for the tripods and light stance
and all that and then I've got a 60
pound case which is kind of a
medium-sized Pelican case and then I've
got a smaller Pelican case which has a
sort of gear and audio and then I carry
on an even smaller talking case under
the plane so and then plus your personal
baggage so yeah I mean it's pretty it's
you know I used to travel with a guy at
CNN no kidding which he had you this is
before they right charge right right now
he would go out the door with 16 cases
16 and it was the comparison I was at
yeah but that was you know a whole
different era just uh just to follow up
on that so this is making me feel
actually pretty good about the fact that
we're we're making everyone do at least
basic videography yeah because because
some people say to me no the the future
of a video even online if it's highly
produced is that it's not going to be
done by by journalists who are just sort
of incidentally videographers but that
are text people first or bloggers first
but I'm wondering what your what your
senses of that and how many how many
people how many reporters are there out
there who are reporters first like you
are but are also doing broadcast quality
shooting I think it's me I mean in the
science role hi well forget about that I
mean that yeah your your might be me no
I I think that's an interesting point
you know I there aren't many
but I mean I think it's really I think
it's so valuable to take the time to
learn that craft first first and
foremost learn to be a report you know
you've learned how to be scientist
that's good then learn how to be
journalists how to how to write and and
that the process of journalism but to
understand that the craft it's very easy
to under underestimate what it takes to
make really good television and I think
you know Lee and I were talking about a
while ago there were a few years ago
when everybody was in the media world
was panicking about what to do next they
were just you know handing
cameras to guys like him and say go
shoot a TV piece while you're out there
doing your story well first of all he's
busy doing his story you know for one
thing and secondly it does require some
knowledge and understanding of what the
craft is it's not it isn't rocket
science but it is something that you
know we should all have an appreciation
that it takes a little bit of you know
experience an understanding of the
nuances of it so you know I I've done a
fair amount of one-man band work and
it's really really hard it is really
hard to sit down and you know to go and
do a story and trying to be follow the
action making sure the audio is good and
the white balance is good and the focus
is good and and the lighting is right
and then you're not forgetting to ask
the questions that you want to ask you
know it's it's a lot so you know I I
prefer you know to have help or if I can
I've had there been occasions where I've
gone out the door alone of course now
it's it's I think you're alluding to
something which is I think interesting
particularly right now which is that you
know video is exploding as a skilled
subset at traditional large print
organizations as they really sort of
have become adept online so we were
talking earlier I mean The Wall Street
Journal is the largest producer of video
outside the three standard broadcast
networks we have 40 field producers who
are working with people like me in
situations where they're able to come
along a lot of times a reporter will be
in a kind of embed situation where there
there isn't enough room in the tent for
it and then it's important to know how
to do it yourself but there's no
substitute for somebody who really
understands the medium really
understands the cameras really
understands what you can do visual
storytelling in a breaking story which
brings me to something I wanted to sort
of maybe we'll explore as a specific
example about how you work now and then
I'm gonna want to talk to you a little
bit about funding trends and that will
get us into CNN a little
but so that would be the good thing
story that you kind of made your mark on
in recent years was the Fukushima
nuclear plant what we can call it
accident you can call it disaster we can
call it pick a word it all applies
though well they do all apply so you
covered that as a spot story and then
you've gone back several times to kind
of work it as a as an environment story
now tell me how you first encountered
this where we will be doing were you
sitting in a newsroom somewhere were you
just watching a news ticker were you
thinking you know I'm not kind of a
quiet afternoon and I'm hoping for a
nuclear day how do you respond you know
it's I can't remember the exactly the
circumstances of course you know I
wasn't at CNN at that I know so you know
it's interesting so what I'm curious
about is that as a freelancer as an
independent journalist yeah how do you
grab the tail of a breaking news story
it's one thing to be able to sort of
like set something up very in a very
stately way you know what the event is
you have three months to work out your
manifest or whatever but how do you grab
hold of a breaking news story as a video
science journalist well so here's I had
a just a little piece of dumb luck on
that one prior to the Fukushima incident
disaster a tragedy whatever Eli's
tragedy was it weren't I left out and
prior to that I had been planning for
quite some time to go to Chernobyl
because we were coming up on the 25th
anniversary of the Chernobyl event that
was in 86 right so this was it was
Chernobyl occurred in I can't member the
timeframe it was right on the same time
I think it was in February or whatever
the case may later the case was I had
been so I had been on the phone for a
long time with all kinds of nuclear
experts and so I was really fresh I was
fresh on nuclear disasters you were
already just trolling I was trolling a
lot literally I was booking a trip to
Trudeau
and and I had planned to go I'm sorry
did you have a client yes good news our
okay I'd sold it to the NewsHour I said
let's go you know let's do two Noble
twenty-five years later two-part series
they loved it so I started getting busy
on that and I actually I have been
interviewing a lot of people in the US
about it you know what I'm gonna
interrupt you for a sec so you pitched
this story to the news like in January
do you have that when you do that quick
pitch do you have to I know you have a
relationship with yeah do you have to
come at them with the budget with the
timeframe say well you know you know
it's six people for 12 weeks seven
Pelican cases all the most expensive
ungodly video gear you've ever seen and
business class tickets to the Ukraine I
mean no no no none of the above I get
paid I am on a pre fee I am per I'm a
peace worker I paid the same amount for
every story wherever it may take me so
it's up to me to figure out that's why
it's a two-part series for one thing
that's twice as much for the old
I also Brian productions here right so
it's so the I have to figure all that
out and so I was in the process of
figuring all that out and had actually
done a fair amount of shooting and
planning and all of a sudden this thing
happens and so the first thing I said to
the NewsHour was well should I just go
to Japan mm-hmm and they said no and
this was smart they said why don't you
just go to Chernobyl next week instead
and do the Chernobyl piece now because
it's gonna be nice and this would be a
totally different bounce I see okay you
know we've got we've got a stringer over
there he's doing fine you know it's
gonna take a while for the dust to
settle in this they were right you know
I mean you go over there and you're
really limited on what you can you get
there were exclusion zones all kinds of
you know and remember there was a you
know tsunami an earthquake that had you
know be pretty much devastated that part
of this so you sort of did the counter
into I went the other direction which is
the PBS way right and you know Anderson
Anderson Cooper over there I went to
turn over power to the last one
and but it was actually it turned out to
be it certainly gave the Chernobyl peace
much more of a news page
25th anniversary right and you know so
here's what happens 25 years later and
we walk through the red forest where you
put the Geiger counter down on the other
ear so you're getting ahead of it so
there you are you K you're gonna go you
have a crew already lined up yeah I mean
do you have to get a special visas do
you have to go through like weird
customs stuff with all this expensive
glad that we're all technically in the
case technically no and I've told you
about those small cases right right
right but there's six of them so you
know so you go with two people on that
one right so you know yeah you know a
Pelican case is it is it is it you know
are you just a rich tourist or are you a
journalist you know these things are
debatable right so customs and oh I have
I have I had a high-cut I went to Canada
recently and I never saw my gear the
entire time I was there because my carne
was not to the letter of the law but and
I was going aboveboard that just goes to
show you you know I I was honest on that
one and and they confiscated my gear so
I had to rent gear while I was there
which was really fun but I'm get your
gear back I didn't it was sitting there
in customs the whole time during the
trip it was but but I spent you know six
thousand dollars to get gear to me and
Canada to make the shoot happen so
anyway but I digress okay so your
hotfooting it to Chernobyl so and you
got visas for you if I had spent time
we're not easy places they have gone to
the Embassy of Ukraine in Washington and
asked for a visa to do this story you
know I would have waited a long time I
think if ever I mean it's very difficult
to you know it's one thing if you're CNN
you have people on the ground there you
can you you know there's a hole you have
the little PBS news house there may or
may not know what we're all about and
you know I I kind of learned the lesson
that I was I was going to Indonesia in
the wake of one of the volcanoes and I
had been used to at CNN we always got
the visas because you know CNN and they
tend to just you know stamp the visa
because of the the the global
credibility that it has
or had maybe whatever so that's another
discussion so but I never I never
responded and so I was getting like the
the volcano was getting to be old news
and I finally just said went back and
got my passport and said I'm just going
to go I went in as a tourist and took my
chances so is that is that common yes
that is calm because I know it's a big
issue right if you go into a lot of
countries where natural disasters are
not uncommon you're supposed to travel
with the yes government approval
pre-stamped certain set of papers it can
it you know it's yeah let's get them no
no nobody gets in trouble for saying no
right and or just rope-a-doping a
request like that so you know I don't
want to sit here and recommend something
that put you in jail but you know I do
think if you can keep your footprint
light and just you know have plausible
deniability in some respects you're a
consultant whatever
everybody's a consultant right you know
and and you go out and do your do your
thing I mean you know a lot depends on
you know how repressive a regime you're
entering into and how much they're
paying attention to you and you know
I've been wanting to do some stuff in
China and you know when I was gonna go
over there with frontline we got visas
we did get approved we could because we
had some help from Western company that
was helping us helping us but if I went
went in there right now to try to get a
visa to shoot in China for a story I
want to do on aviation in China
I suspect they turned me down flat so
very picky yeah yeah and so going there
however as a tourist in shooting I think
is a risky thing so I think you have to
just kind of do these on a case-by-case
basis but it always helps to have
smaller cases put it that way right well
yeah so okay you have your small cases
you're traveling as a consultant to
fill in the blank ink and what happens
how do you how do you work this how do I
work what Chernobyl and well it's it you
are a huge Japanese coming apart unless
the world unless you have local
knowledge and language you live and die
by your fixer where do you find a fixer
you know people are always talking about
fixers like da load the Baghdad Bureau
we're so grateful to our fixer who kept
us from getting blood we're in these
people come from how do you trust them
we talk to you know that the fix of
1-800 fixer there they are
no I actually I that is one where I use
my CNN buddies because they have they
have people everywhere but they work
with and if they if the person they
don't work with or they work with
doesn't want to or is unable to be a
fixer for me they know somebody so you
know the criteria is you want somebody
who can translate the language and has
local knowledge but more importantly has
you know a little bit of media knowledge
because local knowledge is one thing
knowing that you can't you know when you
drive up to the government office and
where to park the vehicle and how to
manage all that is really invaluable
stuff and can keep you from getting in
or out of trouble with that visa issue
so it's really important to to make
those contacts they're out there there
are people that do this and usually they
you know they can they oftentimes
they're journalists or bloggers or
translators sometimes and they will make
or break your existence when you're out
there you know sometimes you know if
you're sometimes you can be on a story
where a source can I will almost help
you as a fixer depending on the
situation but I like to have complete
autonomy when I'm walking into a story
to have that person kind of be on my
payroll so I know hmm
that the translation is kind of under my
control and and I'm kind of calling the
shop so you wouldn't rely say on a
government agency or now I would some
sort of institutional hook up to provide
those things for you as a as a matter of
trust
well I just I wouldn't want to walk into
that situation without
you know it like in Japan where I can't
speak the language and not know you know
really what's being said and like the
nuances I know I have a person I've
worked with there every time they've
gone who is she's fantastic she's
Japanese national she and she's got she
hits on every criteria she's perfect
English she's married to a former Los
Angeles Times correspondent they
traveled the world together and were
posted all over the world and she was a
photographer for The Times most of the
time so she has total knowledge of the
media of the west of English of Japan
and she can take pictures so it's like
you know she's like that's that's like
the perfect fixer right what's the going
rate doesn't drive those I have to buy I
have to get a driver what's the going
rate for a fixer Chernobyl in Chernobyl
I can't read what I paid there I was
pretty cheap there but in Japan I think
I'd pay her on the order of I want to
say it's about $200 a day $100 a day
baby I can check that if you want all
right you do your piece of nutrional
yeah
are you how quickly do you have to turn
this kind of video set piece around
what's bono doing all this stuff
digitally via three satellites to a
editing board at NYU over there I mean
well we actually in the case of true
noble because the you know the
temperature got turned up on this story
right we actually edited that story in
Kiev and sent it back by FTP and both of
the pieces so that was that's unusual
but that's certainly these days I kind
of turn around we talking about well you
know we we we shot it over the course of
two days two or three days I wrote for a
day and then it was up on the FTP server
the next day so within a within you know
a day or two after so you sort of have
to have your you know back together but
that's that's my old CNN racehorse genes
they're you know I'm used to that kind
of
so that I feel very comfortable in that
world that doesn't bother me at all
that's not for everybody though and it's
not is it ultimately does not you know
you'd prefer to have a little more time
to savor the the nuances of the piece
but sometimes you just got to get it on
TV - so when you're in the field like
that I mean you you shoot first
you said you ask questions later yeah no
but yes yeah right you shoot first ask
questions later but that you you you
film first you know and then you sit
down to figure out like well what's the
story I have and you write second yeah
that was the process you just described
yeah so I'd like to know a little bit of
how about a story comes together for you
that way how do you rapport with the
camera it's really interesting because
there are some people who actually
attempt and I think it's a bad idea but
they'll do extensive pre interviews and
though they'll basically write the story
before they get out the door now you can
make an argument that you know on a
short turnaround especially you know if
you're to have that kind of you know
there at least and modify it that's a
good thing but to the extent that that
forces you to you know put some sound
bites in a little box that you've made I
think it's a bad idea I I prefer to go
out with a pretty good idea of what the
story's gonna be like but then let it
evolve before your very eyes it's always
going to be different than it is on the
phone and I don't think there's any harm
in writing in advance or outlining or
whatever you decide to do but you you
can't be afraid to kill your darlings
and throw it out if you have to and
that's the hard part is you know oh gosh
I've got this whole script me I just
want to find a bite that fits here and
if it's there and then I've got a story
but you know sort of missed the
important points that you got along the
way it's a bad thing that Nova is
classic for this they Nova prefers
before you begin shooting a Nova they
want a 25-page treatment they basically
want you to do the story before you get
out the door which is which to me makes
good sense for you know classic science
story that doesn't have a journalistic
agility I mean if you're doing Pharaoh's
tomb or the great you know building of
the Colosseum or those kinds of things
that makes a little more sense to me
it's not like that story's gonna change
too much over the course of your
production but when you're doing
something that is dynamic I think it's a
bad idea I've tried to explain that to
no but but they anyway I still haven't
delivered a full 30 page treatment I've
sort of weaseled out of it so far yeah
well you know I just don't think it's
wise it's a waste of time I want to keep
you in that unfolding nuclear accident
because I think it's highlights a lot of
how you work and what you're up to
so you you know the world is still
wondering whether or not all the tuna
that's coming to California is
radioactive or not and is this thing
gonna melt down or boil the Pacific
Ocean or any of the various alarmist
things we're floating around you're in
the Ukraine you filed this beef he says
excuse me
and then what come home I get on a plane
and all of a sudden frontline called me
up and said we need you to go back and
we want you to do you know an hour on
what this means for not just the nuclear
industry in Japan but also you know the
nuclear industry in general they want
you to go to Japan back - yeah - Japan
this time yeah okay okay and so so here
so you turn around so I get pretty much
within I can't remem the time frame but
very shortly I was back in on the road
at this time in Japan with the front
line crew yeah that's what I want to
know is so you had to change crews yeah
how many people have you got in that
case the front line production was not
my production company I was in I was on
that project as a reporter not as Miles
O'Brien productions as a director and
producers so it was a little different
role for me and I was working with a
great producer by the name of John Paul
Furman and so he he produced and
directed he's he's done a ton of Novas
over the years in front lines and and
and I wrote the piece but it was a
little different because I was coming
into that you know it was a little more
of a he had been pitching that idea like
from the moment that the meltdown
occurred and he got you know the sloan
foundation
immigrant very quickly so he took that
to frontline fully-funded mm-hmm they
said go so it all happened pretty
quickly but he had that he had the
contacts at Sloane and because he he's
based in Boston and he knew all those
guys and MIT as well and he had a hole
he had the thing pretty well wired so it
was it was good
turned out to be a a great experience
and so I just kept going back to
Fukushima after that all right no but so
in that first Fukushima visit though
you're there to do a what sounds like a
mini documentary on us yeah we did an
hour for frontline called nuclear
aftershocks and how long does it take
you to put together an hour well we did
that one see we shot it and it happened
in March we were there in June it aired
I think that aired in September I'm
going to say but what I did was because
you know Miles O'Brien Productions is
always looking for a deal since I was
over there
okay I I shot three stories for the
NewsHour so you know what the heck right
and so and so I did I did some my first
NewsHour pieces on Fukushima
well I travel with the frontline crew
did all that shooting and then they went
back to Boston to begin the
post-production and I stayed okay and
shot some more stuff for for the
NewsHour so it's a twofer who did you
use to shoot the stuff for news oh that
was me just you yeah yeah all by
yourself yeah well with Fumio my fixer
right so you a fixer driver yeah that
was it okay yeah and how many Pelican
cases that was you know the usual three
okay yeah okay so your shooter is what
do you just like putting things on a
tripod and running around in front core
yeah I mean what I did was you know
Fumio has a little bit of as I told you
she was a photographer says she knows
how to frame up a shot and so you know
stick it out of a tripod I'll set you
know I'll set up the stand up as a word
and he kind of hit the button and say
you know flew MEAC around here make sure
I was doing frame and and do that kind
of thing so basically she was she did
enough shooting just to inject me into
the story a little bit
just to prove I was there and and the
rest of it was just me shooting which I
love doing so it was really a lot of fun
so how what was it like working in Japan
what was it like working in that kind of
sort of the evolving disaster disaster
literally earthquake tsunami industrial
disaster the nuclear power thing and a
kind of government policy meltdown at
the same time I mean what how did you
negotiate how did you navigate that it
was it was really it you can imagine how
difficult that would be you know this is
not a transparent government and a
transparent it not a transparent company
in the middle of you know an epic crisis
and so I you know my first question to
Fumio is you know of course the one
thing you want to do is go in the plant
you know and that that first trip I
couldn't get in and then so the next
question is can we get into the
exclusion zone and that she asked the
authorities and we were denied and so I
connected with a group of basically
hackers in Tokyo
mostly expats who are building geiger
counters you know for people to put out
it's a company company or a nonprofit
called safecast and they're kind of
they've kind of got a gonzo approach to
getting into the exclusion zones so that
so I got to know them I was doing a
little piece on you know part of my
story was them building the Geiger
counters and the idea of crowdsourcing
this data was very meeting you know
story on its own right but I said can
you get me in the zone and they said oh
yeah well get you and so I said to Fumio
I said boom you know you know these
people get me in and she was like I'm
not going in it's no way Romeo Romeo
stayed back and you know she she has to
she has to live there right so I can
right so we went and we snuck in you
know how did you sneak in these guys
knew you know not he disguised yourself
as a television reporter not not every
roadblock was was manned and they know
to go and so we got in and we were able
to you know document some of what was
going on there which was you know
essentially no one's there kind of
post-apocalyptic but and then so you
know that was the first trip than the
second trip we got we did get it
permission to go with some you know yeah
that's alright I'm gonna I'm a print
person so I'm slow so you go into a
government exclusion zone I understand
that police are very regularly they can
capture me but one of the things that is
kind of an occupational hazard
is that you pull the fast one you sneak
around the they can go back but then you
air your piece right and like somebody
the government the army the whomever
sees that you've done this right and
then you come back a second time well
they don't watch the news hour there
which is a good thing you can't because
in China they do do they watch the news
oh they have a whole not just a news
they watch everything they watch
everything and they take names
moreover they link by lines to you know
about on stories that were you know
sensibly reported inside the country to
that list of approved journalists with
government visas and they do keep track
of which yeah what so goes back to that
piece of discussion yeah so so in this
case yeah I I took the calculated risk
sure that you know they would see the
piece and if they saw it I you know I'd
be long gone
Fumio wasn't with me she could did not
hit me and you know I I just assumed if
I ever got caught I just plead gum you
know I can't read the science did you
think there's Shona dancers just just
like you're working style you're you're
an adventurous energetic we thought we
actually thought it through allotted
with you know we were we had a kind of a
story ready then we were just kind of
lost and we were you know shootings and
pictures and you know the whole thing
but I mean I you know I
there was no health reason to I mean we
not in the exclusion zone
we were we were completely completely we
had Geiger counters at the wazoo so we
were you know we're watching ourselves
as we went I wasn't going to put myself
and in a place right at being great
jeopardy and and it wasn't a lot of that
was overstated anyway
indeed and in any case so at this point
you are you go in you're doing the I'm
gonna film what I see right and then I'm
gonna go back home and figure out what I
what's my story I mean that seems to be
you're working right right so so what
was that for a story then that it's
empty
well we did it I you know the night of
dangerous any people's the story the
story was I'll tell you we did a story
it was basically about the safecast guys
and and their efforts and so and we did
you know how they were trying to get
geiger counters in people's hands so
they could get you know data up and it
was all streaming to the web and so
because at that point you know TEPCO and
the government were not providing any
information whatsoever at all and people
who took you were going bananas because
they couldn't get right and there's a
whole you know there's a there are
little pockets neighborhoods in Tokyo
that were kind of hot because of the way
the weather patterns you know the rain
would drop some cesium in a particular
spot and so there was all kinds of you
know concern that was transcendent just
that area and so that was my hook was
just following the safe gas guys and you
know in the story I gotta tell you
that's dude he doesn't you could have
predicted it but they we found an
abandoned dog you know and so of course
we shot the dog looking forlorn in this
absolutely empty apocalyptic scene and
shot the dog and you can imagine what
how the reaction of the peace it was all
about the dog forget the previous eight
minutes how's that dog quiet that dog
that poor dog you know it solver dog
anyway it's always the pet so are you
worried about your own safety at all at
this point you know I I felt like it was
a calculated risk and then you know in
the next trip what I went into yeah yeah
when I you know in that case well you
know that I just kept you know
unfortunately they didn't see that I
broke the law the first time and the
second time I got it I went in with some
researchers from Tokyo University under
their license to go in and
doing some radiological research and
that worked out well and then so finally
I just you know I kept asking and I read
it I was trolling around and I read that
TEPCO had hired a former Nuclear
Regulatory Commission Chairman Dale
Klein to be their adviser because they
I'm shocked to hear this but they were
worried about how they were
communicating imagine that so they
didn't know how to do it right so they
called him up and said what do we do how
do we how do we get ourselves out of
this mess and so you know he not just
from a communication standpoint from an
engineering standpoint as well and so he
assembled a cadre of engineers some of
them with a lot of experience at Three
Mile Island we went over there and
started advising them and one of the
things they're advising them on was how
to handle the Western media that you
know in the Western media meaning yeah
yeah but you like some meet you yeah the
TEPCO when the government you know the
Japanese media is very docile and they
they're not worried about those that
situation they've got that covered
because they don't really push they
don't go into the exclusion zone
illegally and they have it's very
strange over there they're not very
aggressive but that's a long discussion
about culture and traditions whatever
but he so I called him up out of the
blue and I said you know mr. Klein I you
know I've been trying desperately to get
in the plant I've tried not be back you
know and I sent him all the links to my
stories mm-hmm it turns out he was he
was familiar with my work and he said
you know what miles I'm going to Tokyo
next week I'm gonna meet with the
chairman and you are gonna be my test
case for getting the Western media in
that plant I was like wow well you're
gonna carry my heavy water I guess so
yeah yeah that's good that's good good
and so he went and advocated on my
behalf and that you know they had you
know hired him and trusted him and he
came in and said this guy O'Brien is you
know he's gonna you know not do a
hatchet job did you have a relationship
with him no he just he
watch my stuff over these okay okay and
so that led me into the the plan for the
last trip which was you know very
interesting no these and I'm going back
in January so these segments were you
know they had they had they they popped
they had a lot of viewers and it kind of
makes me want to ask your thoughts on
every measure of viewer interest seems
to sort of come back and document one
way and rather than sort of science
journalism it's very high on the list
and those categories of topics broadcast
topics that people would would switch
into and yet historically and it's
certainly in the current environment
there's a real disinclination in a kind
of systemic sustained staff way for
traditional and I'm not talking about
PBS so that we could I guess do in a way
doesn't sort of staff science right
anymore
anymore know what the last of Mohicans
right so I wonder if you could tell us a
little bit about how it was funded at
CNN which was unusual in having a large
standing science unit which they of
course disbanded but I'm just wondering
what's going on there well there's a
couple things first of all I think I'm
gonna tell you a story about revenue and
you know why science got funded at CNN
but I will preface it by saying that Ted
Turner is my hero and is an alt you know
listen he's a billboard guy he wanted to
make money in CNN there's no question
but he also wanted to change the world
he cared a lot it cares a lot about the
environment cares about science
innovation and technology and he
probably would have covered science
regardless however the real reason that
science there was such a vibrant science
unit when we when they dis
there were eight of us in all at CNN is
in 1980 when CNN was brand-new and none
of you were born there was they were
barely making the paychecks literally I
mean this was a brand-new idea no one
the idea of 24-hour news was just crazy
I know this is hard for you to all
imagine we just all waited for the
evening news to come out at 6:30 and we
watch for a half hour and that was it
it's hard to imagine all this right but
that's it so Ted does 24-hour news and
he can barely keep the lights on and a
TMT at that time before the break up
when AT&T was a monopoly and owned
everything approached CNN and said you
know this is an interesting little
experiment you have going here we would
like to sponsor a science unit and the
science unit we'd like it to do three
stories a week and a weekly show on the
weekends about science and technology
week and you know we'll pay you X
million dollars a year I don't know what
the number was and at that point you
know they could it wouldn't have matter
what the content was they were like yeah
bring it on we are doing science and so
so as it was tied to a revenue stream it
was exactly so what what had the way it
worked was we would produce our unit
myself and some others because I
couldn't do all all of that content we
would produce three pieces a week and
they were there was a specific time of
day when these things had to run and
they got multiple viewings on these days
and after each piece ran it went almost
directly to a commercial for a tea this
science piece was brought to you by AT&T
reach out and touch somebody or whatever
they did so so yeah you know whatever so
and this so and then the weekend show
which at the time by the way was the
second highest rated show on CNN after
the show which preceded us and the
weekends which was style with Elsa
clench which was a runway model show and
how that lead-in helped us I don't know
but I you can only imagine what those
what
audience was watching beforehand I don't
know model sudden runways and then geek
stuff right was this say runway show was
it the same funding model was it yes and
they had I forget everybody had like a
dedicated all the fee bonus yeah there
was a travel unit there was a medical
unit they all had these linkages and so
you it had to be really really a big
damn deal to drop the science piece I
mean there were this came from the
highest authority at CNN from the CEO on
down producers knew the science piece
had to run unless the world was really
coming to an end I mean it really had to
be a big deal and and producers hated it
they hated it because they'd stacked
their show up and there would be this
you know science turd in the middle and
they you know they couldn't figure out
how to make it fit and you know but it
had to air it had to air because we were
linked to revenue and so we were fat
dumb and happy for years and years of
this model and there was no way they
were never gonna get rid of the science
unit as long as the the dough kept
coming in and then suddenly you know a
bad thing happened CNN got really
successful and and they no longer needed
to have these arrangements where they
were linking specific coverage to
revenue and so they got rid of them all
why was it bad from their standpoint
because the producers say the producers
hated it and they could sell the spots
anyway they at that point they were in
come of age and they didn't need to sell
a specific not in content anymore and so
it was okay for a little while but then
slowly but surely we had a hard time
getting on TV you know first we lost the
weekend show and then you know the the
shows that were airing us almost out of
habit stopped dropped and and then it
was they they said to us you know you
have to pitch and sell your stories to
individual producers and shows and if
they don't take it you know that's your
problem and it really will be your
problem
and sure enough eventually it was really
our problem eventually the shows stopped
biting on what we were selling and so we
you know we tried basically pandered to
a lot of their interests and you know
were the last stories I was working on
some producer at the morning show I
actually I did I did a whole series on
UFOs which was you know not one of my
finer journalistic moments and there's
stuff on the web saying I got fired for
that because it was it was the last
things I did and but you know the one
producer called me up and said you know
I've always wondered how do those
waterskiing squirrels do it can you do a
piece on that can you I said that no
that's a really good science piece I can
tell you right yeah so that's where we
were wouldn't when the meat cleaver
dropped miles can I can I get all up on
that yeah so so I'm just trying to think
what lessons we can draw from that
besides more waterskiing squirt that's
that's a definite beyond the obvious
more squirrels is it perfectly the GoPro
is it possible to make a commercial
model for science journalism on on cable
thank you and if so would it need to be
sponsored or can it be done with just
the assumption that you don't have to be
as successful as CNN at its height was
successful yeah I mean I so much of this
is about expectations for corporate
America right they want to keep growing
the product right so I do think so I
think you know you look at any study you
choose people consistently say they're
interested in it and it's the one thing
they don't get enough of you know this
is this happens time and again when you
ask them these questions so why isn't it
covered it's you know we first of all
newsrooms are filled with history majors
like me you know and that's that's it
not good for science these are people
who have you know getting cold sweats
thinking about the periodic table and so
there's science phobics in the newsroom
and it's it's important for science
journalists to make sure they stay as I
the term I use it as close to the news
curve you need to be using events as
teachable moments to lead you to science
you can't go in there with just random
stuff and expect you know the likes of
CNN to to hop on it because they wanted
to be part of what
there whatever the two or three you know
fixations at the moment are but it's
it's hard to get it in that environment
having said that could a science Network
survive I think so I really do believe
so I think there's interest but it's all
a matter of you know the cost of getting
on cable these days do we do you really
want to go through all that is that
worth it anymore my kids don't watch
cable do you guys watch cable I mean is
it seen it's kind of I don't even have
cable anymore so I don't know if I only
have it so I can get my HBO GO it's
basically well let's expand that
question into the web I mean is there is
there a way to make video on the web you
know reported video on the web about
science work as a standalone or could it
only work as as part of a much larger
site well I'd like to think so I I can't
I can't give you a great example right
now let's think of me think of some good
examples of science platforms that are
video oriented that are mostly about
science a lot of I'm sorry yeah scishow
what do you think of that yeah they said
they are they doing yeah right yeah yeah
I mean it is that really reported though
I mean I don't I don't I don't see a lot
of reported pieces yeah I think that's
yeah I mean as far as pure the purists
you know science journalism it it's
tougher I see a lot of places some
people are here in the room if someone
from the Verge's here you know that that
will use video that will will sometimes
produce really short pieces but it's
never it's not the heart of what they do
right you know so is it is it is it
always going to be you know a beat in
the midst of other things as part of it
you know part of a larger platform oh
can it stand alone I mean the thing
about you know going back to the cost of
entry and the barriers to entry they're
you know they're virtually non-existent
it really boils down to do you have a
good stories
and you know are they the stories that
people are interested in and if if you
do in fact have that I don't think
there's any reason why people wouldn't
be to pass to your door now you know I
after the ffff CNN I selfishly just
didn't want to miss any shuttle I was
just gonna ask Betty I think this is an
instructive yeah
example of how you can do what Dan is
asking about it so so I I was sayin tell
us about it so you know there you are
you you just got canned yeah making a
big splash everybody's like wow CNN it's
really terrible poor miles or more miles
doesn't stand still does he well I
didn't want to miss any shuttle launches
so that was no I and I you were a
shuttle junkie I was a shuttle junkie
and the thought of not being at the
press Mound was upsetting me so I called
and I thought you know NASA NASA has you
know hundreds of cameras around this
thing all you have to do is plug into
the thing and you've got a broadcast
right all you have to do is have the
commentary so I called a friend of mine
who already had a space oriented website
and I said you know how hard would it be
to just throw a camera up and a couple
of chairs and get it you know t1 line
and we'll just do shuttle commentary and
talk over the NASA pictures and cover
the launch for five six seven hours you
know given instead of the CNN coverage
which was about two minutes until solid
rocket boosters separated you know an
inch deep 500 miles wide coverage it was
an inch wide 500 miles deep coverage and
what was that for mother was that for
space time from spaceflight now that
goes a lot now so we started doing this
we started streaming this thing out and
we you know we so you know how do you
pay for it well it really wasn't that
much of an expense we got live stream to
carry it for free because the guy who
runs live stream loves space and he just
wanted to come down to the press mound
that was good
and you know then we we had we all had
the cameras we had the Macintosh's we
needed to pay for a t1 line in the
plaintiff playing fair and so so we I
went to all of the shuttle contractors
who were you know all of a sudden you
know
the shuttle days were numbered they knew
and they didn't have they had a lot of
you know kind of just PR money
essentially and so I said here's what
we're gonna do we're not gonna sell
spots but we're gonna sell it's
advertorial interviews so the interviews
will be with your people and they will
be you know 12 to 15 minute interviews
and you will help sponsor this webcast
and we will tell our viewers that these
are ad supported interviews and I said
and the trick is I you can't tell me
what to ask or what not to ask you have
to just you know take the leap of faith
and so it was I was really I was like
wow I'm going down a slippery slope here
and so we got you know like United Space
Alliance and Boeing and Lockheed Martin
halted to sign on and sponsor the thing
and we did these advertorial things and
we ended up at the end with close to 300
thousand people watching it at a given
moment
on the streaming webcast all over the
world which was you know we thought it
was pretty good really no we had no
marketing cloud except for tweets and
and Facebook and the lesson I learned
from that is that you know truly there
there was something there that we were
offering that there was an audience and
people will find you if you have
something that is in the niche and so it
proves that there's kind of room for
boutiques right and you know CNN is the
is the Walmart of news you know so
spaceflight now is a little space
boutique and people found us and it was
it turned out to be profitable for us
how many launches did you cover that way
or how many how many missions did you we
did the last eight missions last eight
issues yeah so you're talking a couple
of years yeah we did for a couple years
it was great and here's the other thing
sustainable it was sustainable and that
the really you know this advertorial
thing I was worrying me
and so I deliberately would ask all you
know the the hi hard questions I could
you know
hi hard once I could come up with just
to see what they'd say you know because
I was curious how far I could push it
and what was really interesting to me
was you know when you do at 12 or 15
minute interview with this Boeing
engineer or program manager or whatever
the case may be
it's not that they mind the the hard
questions it's just when you're on CNN
and those are the only questions you ask
them are they you know the kind of
matches and if you do the 12-man
interview which provides context they
walk away thinking you know what the
hard ones but that was in context that
was good interview and so it was really
interesting a you know it's a it's proof
that that that model of you know okay
you've got two minutes with this guy you
got to make sure you ask them about all
the things they screwed up on you know
no wonder people are cynical about what
we do for a living there's no attempt to
put it into a broader context or to
explain it it's just you know try to
have a little gotcha moment and and
people people are sick of that sort of
in the in the same vein yeah whenever
you're ready for a in the popular media
not just cable TV there's always a
temptation with stories to try to to try
to the temptation or act of push is
always there to try to push them in a
slightly more sensationalistic direction
to give them a little bit more of a God
just spin and that's maybe particularly
there with a lot of science because
there may be a preconception on the side
of the producers or somebody else that
the science itself it's a little too dry
or a little too hard to specialize you
you know after you are Miles O'Brien
productions you've got your own
motivations for wanting to try to make
sure that you can sell a lot of stories
but you also bring a lot of integrity to
this so I'm just curious to hear you
talk about how you try to hit the kind
of balance between bringing a lot of
integrity to the coverage while also
trying to make sure that it's going to
sell and I guess the the barb I'm going
to stick in this I'm just curious about
also about whether you feel as though
the news industry in general actually
rewards people who try to hit that kind
of good balance to hit the balance
there's not a lot of empirical evidence
that the industry does is there I mean
let's face it who gets rewarded in this
business who gets the the big salaries
it's the gotcha moments it's the it's
the clever stuff right but there's
something to be made be having integrity
and you know in the end what else do we
have right you can stack up a lot of
money and not have your integrity so
what right I would much prefer to sell
too mature to make less and and even
reach a smaller audience if it meant if
the trade-off meant I would have to give
up on that and if I would have to kind
of sensationalize a story having said
that I want to make my stories as
interesting as possible but there are
other ways to do that and there are ways
yes there are ways to do hard-hitting
investigative pieces and I you know
that's that's important and I and that's
a lot of why I'm in this business but
they're also some of the greatest
moments in the science piece are those
shared moments of discovery which have
nothing to do with gotcha
except for wow that's that's cool and
Eureka you know and so those those
moments can be very compelling for
viewers as well so I think you just have
to me I watch that kind of coverage and
I think you know just grow up will you
you know I mean really come on can't we
just you know move on for this silliness
it feels like high school to me
sometimes but anyway that's probably why
I'm at PBS and you've just come through
or maybe come through an extended
episode of that kind of ignorant gotcha
science II medical broadcast journalism
in the case of Ebola yeah I wonder what
your thoughts on the performance of your
colleagues well yeah that was a very
unfortunate chapter wasn't it and you
know it's funny how that went the
election over so they where's the Ebola
coverage
where is the a bowl of fear where did
that what happened you know this this
stinging indictment of the Obama
administration the CDC and how Ebola was
going to wash across our shores and
guess what it was really not much of a
story here it's a huge story in Africa
but they don't seem to care about that
one I think it was horrible horrible
coverage of me you know just when I
think there can't be anything worse
something comes along and sets a new bar
and you know it was it was racist it was
jingoistic it was ignorant and it was
all deliberate in in my view to scare
people and why just just because they
want to grab a few more eyeballs for Fox
News and you know I was I was very vocal
about that and you know ended up being
vilified by Bill Bill O'Reilly which I
consider a red badge of honor but it
it's so unfortunate that you know it's
so irresponsible
so we're responsible I wish people would
vote with their feet in turn that turn
it off but they watch it but you know I
feel like it's you would think over time
that would that would not be a
sustainable business model but the
jury's still out on that they're wildly
successful I think do you see the
situation worsening is the Ebola
coverage some of the worst that you've
seen or is it is it a pretty high level
of well it's kind of a microcosm of
climate change in some respects you know
it's just it's kind of this this whole
you know I mean listen we it's just not
just Fox we have a the chairman of the
Science Committee in the house doesn't
believe in evolution and the chairman of
the Science Committee in the Senate now
Jim Inhofe believes climate change is a
hoax so we've got problems that extend
far beyond Fox News here now maybe
they're there because of Fox News we
could go back and forth on the chicken
and egg question there but you know
there is a you know there is a strong
sense sentiment in this country that you
know you know that's just a bunch of
smartypants talking there and you know
it's really a bunch of liberals who
actually read them books and go late and
so I you know I it's really really
important that you do your jobs well it
really is it's so important we're like
it's like a little candle in the wind
here I I want I don't want you I know
it's gonna be hard for you because it's
it's not an easy business I salute you
for trading perfectly good scientific
careers that's easy right and for you
know going into the world of you know
trying to communicate about this because
it's it's so important it becomes even
more important and as it get it becomes
more important I feel like the coverage
gets worse and worse and I'm afraid it's
I don't see any trend in you know if you
look at the cable networks certainly I
don't see any trend that that leads me
to think it's gonna get better
sorry but the good news is there are
other ways to reach people and this is
this the lesson of the spaceflight now
this is the lesson of you know thank god
there's PBS you know please please
remember us a pledge week because you
know I'll get you a tote bag but you
know I there there's there's there's all
kinds of place on the internet now
there's there's a lot of ways to reach
people and people do want this content
you can bypass this tyranny of Roger
Ailes and Time Warner and reach people
it's just you know a matter of finding
good stories and telling them well it's
really that's that's just that's a
simple statement that is really hard but
you know that's really all it is
it isn't rocket science people will find
you they will want to take you back
circle back around for a minute to your
last visit to Fukushima
it's an ongoing story for you your head
say you're headed back in a couple of
weeks a couple of months yeah January
January ok well let's go back to that
last piece because you know you you went
into the plant yeah you took some
personal risk here how do you calculate
that equation of personal safety versus
good video versus hot story what's well
I mean you know
I think going into Fukushima when you
completely suit up and tie back and
multiple gloves and a respirator and
yeah I think the risk there is pretty
managed and you know yes you could be
there and there be another earthquake
which could disturb the reactor core and
that would be a bad day for everybody
there right but you know that's you know
there you know it's risky you know
crossing Cooper Square today that was
that was wow I almost got killed there I
mean jeez that's crazy out there yeah
and so there are there are ways to get
killed believe me right here in the city
and at Fukushima so you know this is
this goes to how we you know all of us
and and this is important if you
continue in science journalism to
remember what the real risks are and you
know it is crossing the street in Cooper
Square it isn't necessarily nuclear
power or flying on an airplane or all
the things that or a bola for God's sake
saying you know all those things it
isn't those risks and so it's but it's
easy you know because what we do after
all is talk about these things that are
complicated and scary you know and
you're trying to break these things down
and so you you you know have to think
about what your risk you're exposing
yourself to but I think in the grand
scheme of me flying my little airplane
my single-engine airplane at night in in
bad weather versus going to Fukushima
with it with a respirator and a Tyvek
suit I was much safer at Fukushima so
you just have to kind of know well these
things it was certainly whatever risk
was there was far outweighed by the
benefit of going there you know
reporters TV reporters in this country
have stopped going they don't even
bother with it and I feel really
committed to telling this story it's so
important that people understand it and
so I I just want you know I felt like I
needed to be there I need it's not like
it was my job to be there yeah it's
interesting that a medium that sort of
was initially organized so strongly
about obtaining and
sharing the real image of an actual
event do you know whether it was a
combat thing or a building or a person
it's now evolved into an interview it's
not cheaper it's much cheaper it's not
you just send the guest in and you know
you can you can easily fill up eight
minutes of you know Cable News airtime
for you know pennies because you've got
this infrastructure of the bureaus and
you get it you go through the rolodex
and there's the usual suspects and you
do some sort of riff on you know the
Kardashians or Ferguson or whatever they
whatever the story is you know there's
some yapping job but to go out and
actually shoot an eight-minute piece
there's some real money involved there
and so it's you know when you're doing
the calculus a place like CNN you know
that's the people that are being shown
the door the people who go out and
actually shoot the stories you know the
people that are minding the the live
shot locations are still there because
that's what keeps it going it's pretty
sad so you wrap up at Fukushima you
think you've managed your wrist yeah you
can pack your bags you I don't know
uploaded your footage well I was gonna I
was gonna carry that back with me
carrying I you know Miles O'Brien
productions was looking for one more
story just to amortize the trip a little
bit to tell us about that was oh I found
destroying the Philippines on are you
guys familiar with Golden Rice sure
she'd only modified rice and it holds
great promise for helping out people in
the third world by providing some
nutritional value to rice that it
probably isn't there but obviously
because of the GMO it's you know you can
imagine how that story would be so so I
went there and shot that story and it
was really everything was great and I
was I was so pleased by Fukushima stuff
and I had a little bit of time I was
going to air the Fukushima stuff for the
anniversary which is March 11th and this
is now
you know mid-february so I had a little
bit of time and I'd finished the
Philippine shoot and it's this past yeah
that work temporary yeah twelve is the
day so and I decided I was going to
sneak away to the beach and so I hadn't
just you know I meant a vacation a while
I was just kind of anxious to just lie
in the beach just myself I was one-man
band and so I'm stacking up my Pelican
cases those and unfortunately the heavy
one fell off the cart onto my arm and it
was bruised you know wasn't you know it
hurt it was kind of the bad bruise but I
didn't you know I was in the Philippines
and I really want to go to the beach and
so I just like you know it'll be okay
and it didn't get any better it got
worse matter of fact you know like 24
hours later it was like all of a sudden
got really bad and so I realized I
needed to see a doctor because I was
having all this tingling in my hand and
discoloration it was it was definitely
not just a bruise and then you're on
your own and I was on my own so I asked
hotel for a recommendation our doctor
went to see a doctor and he said you
know you're in a world of hurt you got
something very likely you have acute
compartment syndrome and you know I'm
sitting there on my phone wicking what
the hell acute compartment syndrome is
and wasn't good when I read and he said
you know what we should be able to you
know slice you open and you know I don't
know if you know what it is but it's
like you have sheathing in your veins
and muscles and it doesn't expand and if
you get a pressure impact injury
sometimes it blocks off blood flow and
so apparently that's what I had and so
what they do is they in the emergency
surgery they slice open that sheathing
to try to relieve the pressure and that
usually solves a problem but
unfortunately I was a little too late
and he told me that that was a
possibility and sure enough I woke up
and as you see me here so that was again
you know who would have thought that was
my risk right
I just been to Fukushima and it turned
out to be a pelican case in my hotel
room so
you just never know so I it's a terrible
thing to happen to anybody
and I have to ask you not to how did you
adjust personally but how did you
reinvent yourself professionally as a as
a roving energetic field video reporter
who still has those five or six Pelican
cases to schlep around how has it
changed how you work well I'm more
likely to hire a photographer my biggest
risk was being a cheapskate all right it
hasn't slowed me down I mean you know
the first thing I did when I woke up was
I started panicking about the fact that
I had invested all this money in this
trip and I had to get these Fukushima
stories on the air and I started writing
my stories which I know that sounds
weird everything's God you know I mean
in the hospital Wow I I convinced him to
let me go to the hotel because I didn't
like the hospital very much and the
doctor was really nice so I like after a
night I just said and he actually came
you've made house calls in the
Philippines they make hotel calls and so
I started writing my stories and it was
you know my first challenge was the
QWERTY keyboard and so hmm but I had
Dragon Dictate on there I used it some
and now I used a lot and so I did that
and that was actually for me the right
thing to do because I didn't you know
the first thing you think of is oh my
god how am I gonna be able to do this
job I love so much much less you know
fly airplanes all these other things but
first just doing my job
and you know will they who's gonna put a
guy on TV with one arm I've never seen
one of those and so the first thing I
did was just damnit I'm gonna write
these stories you know just prove that
part of it at least and so I did and
then
so it's kind of plowed through all that
and one of the things that I had planned
some time before the accident was to go
in May this past May to Alaska with my
longtime colleague Kate Tobin who I've
worked with for more than 20 years we
worked at CNN together we both got you
know shown the door in the same day and
we do a lot of we collaborate on a lot
of projects for the NewsHour and Nova
and so forth and so she had planned and
we do stuff for the National Science
Foundation as well and she had planned
an epic trip to Alaska to do a climate
change series and I really wanted to go
in that but I when I came back and was
suddenly - and our my I told her I said
you know I I think you might want to
find somebody else to go on this trip I
don't know and we were flying on to the
Denali glacier and camping for four days
on the glacier and going to the Toolik
field station on the tundra and up on
the sea ice and Barrow on snow machines
I mean it was not had you intended to be
the pilot I was gonna be the pilot but I
was you know I was gonna shoot all of
this and and so we were I you know I
said you know I think maybe this may not
be my first trip out of the box with one
arm you know is that's jumping in the
deep end and she said you know miles I
got your back on this one you need to do
this trip Senate don't you worry about
it if you can't do it I got you covered
it was one of the nicest things a friend
or colleague could ever say you know and
and so I went you know and I had no with
my new prosthetic arm I ended up it was
great I shot everything I did everything
I really didn't there wasn't anything I
couldn't do and matter of fact one of
the pieces just dare tonight on the
NewsHour one of the pieces on climate
change that we shot up there and so
that's been how it's been for me each
time I
you know kind of face I feel like
one-armed MacGyver all the time I'm
trying to figure out how to do things
how to how do you shoot the story how do
you change the lens how do you put the
tripod had to kind of rethink all these
things but you know it's it's all doable
so it's kind of inconvenient at times
but I'm alive and I'm doing things I
love and I choose not to think about you
know what I've lost really I'd rather
just press on so how does it change the
way you think about your work and
forgetting about the practicalities but
just your your sort of an emotional
feeling about your work well you know
there's there's there's some big issues
here for me frankly I mean we could
really get if you want to undo armchair
psychology here I I grew up in a we're
in arms right well yeah I yeah I grew up
in a family both my parents or you know
alcoholics heavy drinkers I was very
much in al-anon you know take care of
myself kid
and so I I approached every aspect of my
life this way and including being the
one-man band and the Philippines right
it's just like I'll do it myself I got
it I got it and so now all of a sudden
in you know that moment that Kate told
me you know I got you covered I will
help you was such a powerful thing for
me to finally realize that it's okay to
ask for help and it's not this has
nothing to do with journalism but you
know some giving you a little self help
here but it as a guy and the son of two
alcoholics I think I thought it was a
sign of weakness to reach out and it's
just the opposite and what I've learned
from Kate and from countless other
people who have helped me in numerous
ways since this all has happened that it
is actually very empowering and I think
it's changed the way I view everything
and talk to people and interesting the
way the way people talk to me especially
people who are disabled
the connection I have with them is it's
really interesting one of the things
that's really struck me about the the
amazing way that you've handled this is
that you have made the pivot that that
so many journalists are uncomfortable
with and that is that you're willing to
talk about talk about it you're willing
to talk about it on the air you know
you're willing to talk about it even on
the air of places that fired you you
know I mean I mean you that that piece
that you wrote a few weeks ago whenever
that was for New York magazine was
amazing I think too in the in their in
the way that you explained at one level
sort of very clinically very solisten
this is exactly what it feels like to
lose an arm and these are the things you
have to think about but it was it was
very you know you were sort of out there
and naked you know you did that thing
that reporters really don't like to do
yeah
has that been hard for you or because
you've gone through this has it has it
in a way been felt more natural natural
summit well I think it number one it was
hard but what I found was it was
actually kind of therapeutic to share
the story and you know it is a story
right there's a side that you know as a
journalist you know I can't overlook
this story can I so it's been I've been
you know I was kind of reluctant to you
know I obviously I had to talk about it
people wanted to know and I had to go
there but I didn't want it to be like
you know I'm one-armed guy I just want
to be Miles the science guy the reporter
the father or whatever but this is now
part of my you know my reality and
and as a journalist I sort of feel like
frankly I have by training and by talent
I have the ability to explain this to
people in ways that maybe others can't
and and maybe that helps them understand
when they see somebody walking down the
street - an arm or more importantly
maybe that helps somebody who's in a
similar situation as mine and who's
having a harder time so I feel like it's
história that I should tell those long
as I keep telling my other stories - you
know it's interesting I I was just at
the the Applied Physics Laboratory in
outside of DC on Friday and they had the
the most sophisticated prosthetic arm in
the world as there was DARPA funded it's
an amazing thing and they hooked me up
to this thing and it just was like and
it worked you know it was amazing and
but what I you know I I had actually
done a story on this arm like five years
ago before I was a customer and and I
just it was I asked all the wrong
questions I didn't know anything about
it really you know I mean I didn't ask
you know how does it attach how heavy it
is all these things how do you control
it all these you know when you're not in
that world you don't see it so I it
informs my reporting in a way that you
sort of have to have to be there to
fully understand so I feel like you know
I want to tell that story and I think I
should have you thought about writing a
book about it I mean it feels very book
like yeah I think I think I probably
should you know I didn't know what to
write a book about now I guess I got
some material right but I mean that's
what I'll do for a book I was pretty
tricky how you how you arranged it was
pretty tricky how you arranged that so
yeah yeah there's things I'll do for it
I'll do anything for a story anything
but it doesn't feel like that it feels
like it's
a narrative now it feels like it's it's
it's a it's a sequence it it is it is
and I I've been thinking a lot about it
I I'm starting now to be you know it's
been nine months and I'm starting now to
feel like I'm ready to start doing that
it's been kind of this you know just
kind of getting through the day has been
really up until recently it's been
really hard like the other day I was you
know spreading you know imagine
spreading butter on toast right you know
it's like little things like that right
and but there's a little digital hacks
for it and and I just did it and then
and then I was I was sitting down to eat
my toast and I was like god I just did
that and I didn't think about it that it
was really it was like that was that was
a big moment for me because well I you
know I've been spending my entire day
occupy you know huge amount of my gray
matter just strategizing how to do these
little things that you we all think do
completely subconsciously and so now I'm
kind of at that point now where it's you
know I don't even think about it so much
you know every now and then there'll be
something I'll come up that I have to
figure out but but I'm you know it's
just it's just second nature now so now
I now I can think about maybe telling
the story in a book or a film or both we
use a question right here
I'm actually interested here in the
intersection between your personal and
professional life where you have
significant other in children how did
they feel about the danger involved in
your work before and after the accident
well change anything I lost a wife over
this so she is
you know she's significant in as much as
that to send her a big check every month
but she's definitely not my other
anymore but she she was very she never
was comfortable with it she tried to be
but wasn't and it was and I don't know I
think she was it was it wasn't it was
maybe part of part of it was the danger
but I was also it was kind of like not
understanding why I would do that like
you know it was why would you go to
Fukushima why would you go down to her
being in the wake of Hurricane Katrina
for five weeks without virtually no
contact with you know them and why would
you put yourself in that she didn't
understand the that trade-off I just
talked about so it was it was very
difficult my kids have grown up with it
and it's interesting I feel like I'm
scarred them a little bit over it you
know it's really it was hard for them as
matter of fact Katrina as it happens
happened Katrina happened to coincide it
was Labor Day weekend happened to
coincide with mine moving my family from
Atlanta here to New York and we were
driving the car up with my kids two kids
in the back the two dogs my wife at the
time and it was the Saturday before
Katrina Katrina hit on a Monday but it
was a Saturday before and so the whole
way on this Drive I'm getting beeped the
BlackBerry's going off we want you to
stop at the nearest airport get on a
plane and go to New Orleans you know and
I was like I said I'm not going to leave
my family in Roanoke Virginia you know
with the car and the dogs and and not
get them to New York I would I'm gonna
drive to New York
and I'll get on the first flight Sunday
morning to New Orleans and so and but so
one thing led to another they said well
you need to stop and get foul-weather
good for you to do that so I had to stop
at Cabela's and you know it just slowed
up right on everything you need for
Katrina right and so I pulled into
Cabela's and I walked out with all the
gear and my son was at the dog walking
area at the picnic table and he was just
crying he's 12 years old
tears streaming down and you know he
said daddy all right are you gonna get
killed down in in New Orleans no no no
why what makes you think that and you
know and he was weeping about it that
you get a storm and then storm surge and
all these things and he had been
watching on his computer and a DVD of a
horrible movie called category 6 which I
it was a very unforgettable movie but
unfortunately it was bad timing it was
basically I think a hurricane hit
Chicago and everybody died or something
really weird like that but it doesn't it
definitely matter he everybody died
right so he was convinced that that I
was gonna die and I and so I spent a
long time explaining to him how you know
I'm with the best in the business and
CNN clues and been through everything
and they know how to handle this kind of
stuff and you know we it looks really
bad but we're really in the hotel which
is sometimes true and you know whatever
the case may be it you know and trying
to make him feel better and you know
eventually he was he seemed like he was
okay but I'm sure he internalized a lot
of that and of course then I disappeared
for weeks and you know and I do remember
you know driving in to New Orleans and
you know absolutely a parking lot of
cars going in the other direction and a
wide open road going in and thinking to
myself what am I doing here for a living
you know is this really a wise way to
and again it goes you know I I I was
thinking you know this is gonna be I had
no idea how important it would be for us
to be there how could you imagine the
levees breaking in the the federal
mishaps and all the things that happened
that we're so essential and important
that journalists be there to you know
speak truth to power but I just knew I
had to be there and but I I couldn't
help but think him I in my
twelve-year-old crying thinking you know
geez I hope that he wasn't right so
that's a long way of saying you really
really have to have a lot of passion for
what you do in this business and really
feel committed to a cause to just take
such risks I think but it's for me it's
been worth it and you know my kids talk
to me they love me they said that you
know I honestly we've talked a lot about
that incident with my son since then and
you know I think he he gets it now and
now you know he's he's at the Naval
Academy he's gonna go be in the Navy for
five years I mean he's gonna be taking
his own set of risks so I guess we all
have to you know among our loved ones we
have to understand what's important to
them and it doesn't mean that I love you
less because I'm going to New Orleans it
means I love you but this is important
to me as well I sort of feel we should
let that lie and leave our conversation
there I want to thank all of you and you
especially miles this has been our fall
about the power of contrarian I love
being a contrarian man thank you and you
have this evening really brought us in
to your own experience in a very
powerful way that shows us how refusing
to accept professional setback refusing
to accept technological disruption
refusing to accept personal adversity
but keep going animated by a passion for
crafts and a subject and a desire to
share it with others I couldn't end this
a better way thank you sir now
