♪ (HBO INTRO PLAYS) ♪
-(RADIO INTERFERENCE)
-(MUFFLED SPEECH)
♪ (MUSIC BEGINS PLAYING) ♪
NARRATOR: You're tuning
 into Lovecraft Country Radio.
There's some strong language
and spoilers ahead.
Buckle up.
GEORGE FREEMAN: I want you
 to show him more than love.
I know it was in you before--
 it was... (STAMMERS)
...too late."
MONTROSE FREEMAN:
How many times I gotta tell you?
I don't need your advice
when it comes to raising my son.
GEORGE: He might not be yours.
♪ (OMINOUS MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
(METAL CLANGING)
MONTROSE: I don't care
if you got a bullet in your gut.
We settled that a long time ago.
You shut your fuckin' mouth!
GEORGE: (WHISPERS) I know.
I know we agreed...
I wouldn't speak of it,
but I... I have to now.
You might be all Tic has left.
ASHLEY: Girl, um...
-SHANNON: Ashley... (LAUGHS)
-ASHLEY: I-- I just-- I-- Okay.
-So...
-SHANNON: It's a lot.
It's a lot.
Let's take a moment
to acknowledge
what we've just listened to.
ASHLEY: The thing is...
it's a tale as old as time.
-(SHANNON LAUGHS)
-ASHLEY: Isn't it? (LAUGHS)
♪ Papa was a rolling-- ♪
Please cut that.
-Don't let me sing on this.
-(ASHLEY LAUGHS)
SHANNON:
I was just-- (LAUGHS) Yes.
All this time,
Papa was a rolling stone,
or in this case,
-papas were rolling stones...
-ASHLEY: Papas.
-...like we don't know.
-ASHLEY: Plural.
I did not see that coming,
Shannon.
It happened, but I didn't know.
I didn't even suspect.
What did we just watch?
SHANNON: We gotta get into this.
Let's get right in.
Write down episode 2:
"Whitey's on the Moon."
♪ (MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
ASHLEY: Welcome to
 Lovecraft Country Radio!
I'm Ashley C. Ford,
podcast host, writer
and horror enthusiast.
SHANNON:
And I'm Shannon Houston,
a writer for the HBO series
 Lovecraft Country
and mother to three,
free, Black children.
ASHLEY: Amen!
Today, we're talking
about all the themes
episode 2 brought up for us:
religion and power,
legacy and lineage,
and surveillance.
SHANNON: And, of course,
we'll wrap things up
with the references
you may have missed.
ASHLEY: All right.
So, we pick up
where the first episode
left off.
Atticus, George and Leti are
in this huge... ass... mansion.
SHANNON: Right!
ASHLEY:
Atticus has just been told,
-"Welcome home...
-SHANNON: Welcome home.
ASHLEY:
...to this huge-ass mansion."
SHANNON:
(GASPS) I love it, right!
And we find out,
in this huge-ass mansion,
that Atticus is, by blood,
a member of this family/cult/
group of warlocks,
the "Sons of Adam".
ASHLEY: And these white folks
were mad as hell,
And they did
the thing
that White folks do,
where first, they're like,
"Oh no,
you're totally welcome here,
we're gonna show you
that we're mad as hell
in more subtle ways
overtime."
-(LAUGHS)
-SHANNON: Yeah,
and we discussed this
last week, right?
White folks are always mad,
there's a lot for them
to be mad about.
Let's start
with just breaking down
who the fuck the Sons of Adam
are,
and also, like, how
the power of religion
-is so crucial in this episode.
-ASHLEY: Let's go.
SHANNON: So, what do we know
about the Sons of Adam
and who are they key players?
We are introduced
to this creepy guy
named William who doesn't seem
to be a Son of Adam,
but is, like,
kind of the butler,
but kind of not,
close friend of Christina,
and then he teaches us
about the history of this...
weird family which now we know
Atticus is a part of.
So, we have the-- the
elder, elder, elder
Titus Braithwhite
who's long gone
and then Samuel Braithwhite,
played by Tony Goldwyn,
and we'll get into that later.
-ASHLEY: (CHUCKLING)
We'll get into that.
-SHANNON: Um...
is the papa the head
of the house now?
Um, Samuel Braithwhite...
What do they want,
why do they exist?
So, the short answer is kind of
in that quote
that Atticus gives us,
"The KKK isn't calling
themselves
grand wizards anymore,"
right?
Which of course, they're not
the KKK,
'cause the KKK are poor white
people,
and these are rich angry
white people,
-so there's a difference.
-ASHLEY: it's different.
-It's really different, guys.
-ASHLEY: It's very different.
SHANNON: But they want
more power
and they also want
this other strange thing,
which is a return to Eden.
Not necessarily in the way
that we might think,
but in the way that
they perceive Eden
as this true paradise
where man reigned supreme.
And so, they use
especially the Book of Genesis,
but the whole Bible as kind
of a tool,
and it influences many
of their rituals,
and their ideas, in a lot of
creepy and exciting ways.
ASHLEY: Yes, it is very creepy.
The minute you put yourself,
I think, in Atticus' shoes,
whenever he's around
the Sons of Adam,
it's like, "Um, I would just
get out...
-SHANNON: Right.
-...personally."
We also have this person
who I also think
should just get out and won't,
but... (LAUGHS) Christina!
Christina is the daughter
of Samuel,
the ringleader of
the Sons of Adam.
And Christina has these really
interesting
-Daddy issues.
-(SHANNON CHUCKLES)
ASHLEY: It's this thing
where she continues
-to serve a person...
-SHANNON: Hmm!
...who she very clearly
does not believe in.
I think that is very clear.
Wanting to impress,
but not believing...
-SHANNON: Yeah.
-...um, the same thing
this person believes,
which I think is a dynamic
that a lot of people
get into with their parents,
but it is on display here.
We've seen here before she shows
in the first episode...
-SHANNON: Right.
-... and she was driving
that beautiful silver car
that potentially saved
the asses of...
Atticus, Leti and George
as they drove closer
to Lovecraft country.
(CHUCKLES)
SHANNON: Just, like, I love that
you brought up the car
'cause I'm obsessed with the car
and...
I love that you mentioned
that she saved them
in episode one
because I think that kind of
speaks to the weirdness
of Christina.
-SHANNON: Like,
-ASHLEY: Yes.
SHANNON: She saved you
in episode 1,
she, kind of, sort of, seems,
maybe, on your side in episode 2
but then not, but then is.
And every time
this character comes up
I notice people have
this reaction
where they want to hate her
and feel like they should
probably hate her
-SHANNON: but there's something
really fucking...
-ASHLEY: Right?
...cool about Christina.
And it feels blasphemous
to do this
but I feel like we should take,
like, a couple of minutes
to just talk about,
why the fuck is Christina
so cool?
-SHANNON: What is this woman?
-ASHLEY: Why?
SHANNON: What is the attraction
and also, like, all of just--
Unpacking our complicated
relationship
to this fucking crazy
white woman.
ASHLEY: I agree. I saw her save
them in the first episode
and it's this thing, right?
Where it's like, I wanna trust
you, I don't know yet.
-SHANNON: Uhm-mm.
-ASHLEY: I don't know what's
going on here yet.
Something makes me wanna trust
you...
and the part of me that wants to
trust you?
-I don't necessarily trust.
-(SHANNON CHUCKLES)
ASHLEY: And it's messin'
with me, right?
SHANNON: Yeah, it's
so interesting too, like,
when I was thinking
about Christina and what--
My reaction to her,
a lot of times, like,
"she's stunning." You know?
-The outfits...
-ASHLEY: Mm-hm.
...the frickin' dresses, I mean
she's no Leti but...
she carries herself in a way
that is attractive
and I started
really interrogating that.
Like,
what is attractive about it?
ASHLEY: Right?
SHANNON: She's fuckin' wild.
And there's a reason.
ASHLEY: It's not even just
that she's wild.
It's also that she looks good
doing it.
SHANNON: She does! (LAUGHS)
ASHLEY: She looks good
doing it.
Like, I'm like, you know what?
Maybe I would help birth more
animals
if when I did, I was wearing
such a stunning outfit.
SHANNON: You just need
that shirt and those heels
and you just run through
a strange farm, like, town.
And you deliver the baby.
ASHLEY: You do. And you show up
in times when people need you,
when perhaps your baby, uh,
pig-vampire pets...
-(SHANNON LAUGHS)
-... are about to hurt them...
SHANNON: Right.
ASHLEY: ...on your white horse
-that is giving me strong
Shadowfax vibes by the way.
-SHANNON: Mmm.
ASHLEY: Like,
as a Lord of the Rings fan,
I was just like,
"is that Shadowfax?"
-(SHANNON LAUGHS)
-ASHLEY: And
I also couldn't help
but feel like there's something
about a white woman running in
on a white horse, like,
as winter dies.
ASHLEY: That it's like,
this is beautiful in a sense,
but also doesn't look like
something that's gonna
necessarily be available
or helpful to me per say.
SHANNON: Right. And I feel like
that feeling that you're
talking about--
"Do I trust her? Do I trust
the part of me that wants
to trust her?"
It's like that is what's
so interesting about her, too.
And, like, those feelings
that come about
and I think you just know
instinctively.
This help, any help,
comes at a cost, right?
And I feel like that's
what we're feeling.
But I think the other attraction
to Christina in reality
is like she is questioning
the patriarchy
and challenging it,
and that patriarchy is baked
into the sons of Adam.
And we see how obsessed they are
with bloodline
and the men in the family
and the women aren't invited
to dinner
and all of these things
and what's Christina Braithwhite
doing here.
So, all of that energy, I think,
makes her more interesting.
And then we have
this awesome scene
where she faces off with
what you refer to,
I believe, as Tony Goldwin's
white supremacist face.
(LAUGHTER)
SAMUEL BRAITHWHITE:
Dawn of time. Just for a month.
Everything is where
and as it should be.
From God, to man, to woman,
down to the lowest,
wriggling creature.
It was nirvana.
SHANNON: Let's discuss
Fitzgerald Grant...
(ASHLEY LAUGHS)
SHANNON: ...and his new role
as Samuel Braithwhite,
white supremacist warlock
extraordinaire.
Do you still want to sleep
with him, yes or no? Go!
-ASHLEY: No. No!
-SHANNON: Okay. All right.
ASHLEY: Not after seeing
that face. I can't do it.
Personally.
He went all dead in the eyes.
He does a great job,
I feel like,
in this of seeming soulless.
Like, just soulless.
And it shows, like, in his face
almost that, like,
true commitment
to white supremacy
is not about adding good things
to your life.
It's about the absence
of things.
It's about what's missing.
It's about, like,
something blank and numb.
And one of the first things
he says,
you know, directly to Atticus is
asking him to repeat the verse
of the Bible's Genesis 2:19.
But I remember having
this feeling.
Like, of course, the first thing
that he brought up was
the Bible.
SHANNON: Oh, yeah.
ASHLEY: Like, of course it's
let's start from the foundation
of I am informed by
an infallible work
and you are not.
SHANNON: Right. And we know
that obviously Christians have
a long history of this.
And not just Christians.
It's true for other religions,
but this specific relationship
between Black Americans
and Christianity is deeply dark
and troubling
and also beautiful
and powerful and, you know,
so many kinds of things.
But what Samuel Braithwhite
is doing is reading the Bible
according to what he would like
to see in the Bible.
And I think in a way
we're all guilty of that.
When you go to church
and when you are first reading
and first learning
about religion and Christ,
you can't help but put
your own influence in it.
So, there's something very human
about that,
and then there's something
very white supremacist
about that.
I read this as
saying white men could've been
immortal and had all power
and paradise
if Eve hadn't fucked us over,
and if we hadn't ended up
on Earth surrounded by
Black people
that we brought over
on slave ships,
so their ridiculous idea
is that Eden is this key
to immortality.
Not technically ridiculous
because you are taught that
in church. There was this
then the fall happened.
There was a paradise
and we lost it.
And we lost it because
a woman sought out knowledge,
which is why Christina's
a problem
because she's not quite buying
this Eve is the devil
and therefore she can't come
to the dinner table.
And then there's also this idea
about who is disposable.
Like, when we think about
the ritual and again,
flesh and blood and the sharing
of flesh and blood,
and then the concept of
this flesh and blood
is actually useful for us
to gain more power.
And the idea is that Atticus
could die at the end, right?
Like, we suck him dry,
we take out the blood
that we need, we use
his actual body
for our own gain, and then
we get rid of it.
What I like about that scene
and what it made me
think of is, not just
the strangeness
that we're giving to you
in Lovecraft Country
of like a strange ritual
where a Black body
is disposable, but also how
that speaks to like
literally everything.
So many images that we consume,
so many horror films
that we love have perpetuated
this violent myth
of the Black body as disposable.
I'm also getting that vibe
from this scene,
and I don't think we talked
about that directly
in the writer's room
but now that I'm seeing it,
I'm like, ew. That's right.
Y'all will just suck us dry,
take our fucking music,
and do what you want with it.
It feels bigger than just that
ritual.
ASHLEY: Yep.
You got a hard agree in me.
Okay? Because you see this
constantly.
And you not only see it
perpetuated,
you see it defended constantly.
I mean, if you think about
the problem we're having
in this country right now
with the police violence,
it's really about the fact
that there's some people
in this country
who think it's okay
that if some of us die
in pursuit of safety for them
and the people they know.
It's not really about everyone
per say.
"It's about safety for me
and the people I know."
SHANNON: Right. Which is what
Samuel is saying.
This isn't about everybody
returning to Eden.
This is me and my white friends
getting back to where we belong.
That's what makes Black people
disposable
because you don't give a fuck
about us anyway.
And it's not about
everybody in America being safe.
And that reminds me
a little bit too of that
Toni Morrison interview
where she's talking about
America and the myth of Eden
that idea that like
oh, well, it was
this beautiful place that was
totally unoccupied and it was
just waiting there for us.
So, Christopher Columbus
and all his buddies--
We just, like, came
and we discovered this paradise.
And yes. Some people died
at the cost of freedom, right?
Like, that cost somehow
never includes white people
having to pay that cost
and the same thing with
this ritual. Like,
the cost of the Black family.
The white people,
they don't think they have to
pay for this freedom anymore
than cutting out the liver,
which is a cost, but it's like
in general they're like,
"The people who are gonna die
right now are the Black people."
And I am proud
of Lovecraft Country
because at the end
a lot of people die.
That whole lodge is gone,
and we do lose a family member
but we lose more of them than us
so-- Hey, I'm into it!
(LAUGHTER)
ASHLEY: You sitting there
looking at the eyes--
(SHANNON LAUGHS)
"Okay, we lost one
and that's messed up,
but at the end of the day
how many did you lose?"
And you don't have to feel bad
because they were about to kill
an innocent Black man
and so that's what they get.
SHANNON: That's what it is.
ASHLEY: Play dumb games,
win dumb prizes.
SHANNON: Absolutely.
I'm very proud of us.
So, this ritual scene
is more than the dialogue
and action. Underneath it all,
we have Gil Scott Heron's
"Whitey on the Moon" playing,
and we talked about this scene
a lot in the writer's room.
This ritual is just an example
of white people having
these ambitions that are
fucking out of this world.
We thought about this as,
kind of like what we were
just talking about.
This ritual is an example of
white people having
these ambitions that
are out of this world, right?
'Cause take away
the white supremacy of it.
Going back to Eden
is kind of a cool idea.
If somebody told me
that they were working on
a spell and at the end of
that spell there would be
a return to Eden, I could
totally understand why
you would want to pursue that.
Going to the moon is
a really interesting,
exciting idea.
Totally get why a person would
want to pursue that.
But for America,
every time something wonderful
and exciting is happening,
every time we unpack what was
really happening
to get whitey to the moon
or to get "freedom"
or to win a war, we always start
finding these stories
of Black people
getting fucked over.
To me, that's what
Gil Scott Heron
is talking about.
Like, who the fuck cares
if we're on the moon
if I'm broke here?
Who the fuck cares about
American progress
if American is
literally killing us
in these streets over here?
ASHLEY: There are a ton
of unveilings in this episode.
One of the biggest ones
happened to do with Atticus
and his poor little baby lineage
because who the hell knows
where that particular line
splinters off
in which direction?
We don't know that now.
So, Atticus finds information
out from Uncle George
about his mom and her mom.
I remember George saying,
you know,
"I remember her telling me
something."
And Atticus being like, "Huh?"
Like, she told you something?
He's like,
"But my mom never talked to us
about her people.
She never talked to us
about her family."
So, you automatically get
Atticus sort of being like,
"I know a lot is going on
right now,
-but, uh, what was that?"
-SHANNON: Yeah.
And these family secrets are
a big part of the problem
for our characters.
Again, it's not just
the monsters,
it's not just
the Samuel Braithwhites
of the world,
and the Christinas,
and the creepy Wills.
It's these secrets that they've
kept from each other.
Why is Dora being more open
about her family
and their history with
Uncle George
than Montrose or Atticus?
Why is Atticus learning this
secondhand
when he's a grown man
and they're in a moment
of trauma and trouble?
Like, why did we wait,
as family members,
to deliver this kind of
information
that could actually be useful?
Uncle George seems almost
as interested and invested
in the family history
as everybody else,
if not more.
And his curiosity becomes
hugely important
because it's how they find out
Titus had used the book of names
to make his body more powerful,
and that Atticus is reservoir
of that power, and then we have
the white family being, like,
obsessed with all of that.
Obsessed with the blood
and cherishing bloodlines
more than anything else.
Which, actually like our heroes.
They do this whole thing where
they use that information
to their benefit.
Atticus kicks the white people
out of the room,
which is what you must do,
people.
This is what you do when enter
a room full of white people.
You take a seat
and then you kick them all out.
-Right? It's a great lesson.
-ASHLEY: Yes. Point one.
(LAUGHTER)
SHANNON: But then we see we have
our Black family talking about
bloodlines and who's related
to who
and who's really bonded by
this blood.
So of course the scene that
we listen to
at the beginning of the episode,
we learn of what?
Like, is it a potential
love triangle
between George, Montrose,
and Dora who we saw
in that fantasy scene
with George.
There's a question of who is
the daddy. Who is the pappy?
Who is Atticus's real father?
I mean-- You tell me
how it plays.
To me, it's like Maury Povich
but it's so much stranger
and darker than that.
ASHLEY: And I love, like,
that thing that's happening
because bloodlines have
always been corrupted, okay?
Like, you go back and I know
a little--
My husband is such
a history buff,
especially, like, Russia
and stuff like that, you know.
But one thing that
he talks to me about
all the time is the fact that
so many of these families--
Like, these babies that were--
Everything was about
the royal bloodline.
And this conversation, you know,
happening between people,
you realize that
it's not really about
the protection of the bloodline
it's the protection about
the story of the bloodline.
If you can control the story
of the bloodline,
you actually don't
really have to worry about
whether or not somebody is not
of your bloodline,
and the only time
you can really tell
is when that royal blood
mixes with
some dominant brown
or Black blood
and now you can
no longer control the story
-about the bloodline.
-SHANNON: I have chills.
ASHLEY: And I think it's
so interesting
the secrets that people
decide to keep.
So while these characters
aren't saying a whole lot
to each other about
these secrets
and about these stories,
we're learning so much
about them because of
their obsession
with the bloodline.
The obsession with the bloodline
tells its own story.
SHANNON:
Yeah, and I wish we had
a separate podcast,
to just talk about what
you just fucking said.
Again, the obsession with
the blood
is more an obsession
with the story.
And the obsession
with the story
is about controlling history
through stories.
Which then made me think of
Atticus and his love
for these pulp stories,
and why does it matter
that H.P. Lovecraft was
a racist?
Well because, the people who
control the stories
control our obsession with
what a hero looks like,
and to tell that story
the way we want to tell it
we have to have secrets.
So in the writer's room
we were thinking about,
"Okay how do we get some
of these secrets out?
Because our characters
aren't gonna tell each other
shit."
So, we came up with the idea
of a spell that would reveal
things about them,
and that spell is taking place
also in a really fucked up way
in this house
where they're being surveilled.
ASHLEY: Yes, surveillance!
Because if you will remember
our three heroes were in
separate rooms in the mansion,
Leti has her room,
Atticus has his room,
George has his room,
and as they are in those rooms
and preparing for dinner
or whatever is to come next,
they all three simultaneously
experience hallucinations
under the spell that had been
set up for them.
George, in his, encounters Dora.
And, they dance, and they talk,
and it's actually this really
beautiful, lovely moment,
that made me think,
and I'm gonna tell you this
right now, Shannon actually,
I'm gonna tell you this.
It made me think in that moment,
"George is gonna die."
SHANNON: Ooh. You felt it.
ASHLEY: I thought, "He's gonna
die," in that moment,
because, the way he engaged
with her,
this like tacit acceptance
in the moment,
of the delusion, and then
of the fact that it is not real.
And to me, that kind of
acceptance in a moment,
like a hallucination, or of,
you know I'm gonna enjoy this
while it's here, but I know
it's not real,
it feels like people who are
really close to the other side.
-SHANNON: Yeah.
-ASHLEY: To me.
So there's that,
Leti is seeing Atticus.
They're having a conversation,
she's talking to him about
the psalm prayer that
she recited in the cabin,
and about her fear of
abandonment.
Telling him about how
she grew up.
They're having a moment,
he promises
to never abandon her.
LETI: I sat...
in the window of
that boarding house every day.
I'd say that verse
like a prayer,
hoping they'd come back.
It was the only one I could
remember from Sunday school.
ATTICUS: I'm never
 going to abandon you.
ASHLEY: They start making out,
it's good, but she's also like
it's a little fast,
and then he's got a snake dick.
SHANNON: Yes, this speaks
to a lot of themes,
but one of the themes being
that, you know,
maybe dick is evil. Right?
That's one way to read it.
ASHLEY: Right, that's one way
to--
I'm not saying that's
the correct way,
I'm saying, that if you lay out
the ways in which a person
could read this scene,
that one would be somewhere
near the top... five for sure.
SHANNON: Yes, and obviously
inspired by religion.
And, the snake in the garden,
and if Eve only hadn't listened
to the snake, what could
have been?
So Leti's being influenced
by the sons of Adam
and all their crazy shit,
and that crazy painting
with Eve and Adam
and the snake.
-ASHLEY: Right.
-SHANNON: I also, I remember
being really uncomfortable
when we broke this scene
in the writers room because,
I was very protective
of our Black characters
in a way that made absolutely
no sense, considering what
I knew the show had to do,
-(ASHLEY LAUGHING)
-so like, anything mean
happening to them,
I would cross my arms
and Misha would be like,
"Oh God Shannon,
-can you stop it."
-(ASHLEY LAUGHING)
'Cause, I remember being like,
"I don't like the white people
watching. That's so gross,
that's traumatic."
And she was like, "Yeah,
that's-- That's the point."
And I'm like, "But Leti is
unpacking and she's baring
her soul and she's talking about
her mommy issues
and her God issues,
and it's not even real,
and then the snake thing
comes out."
And, I was like--
had that feeling,
and this is a feeling that
I had in the room
every single day. And it's why
this job will go down in history
as one of the most powerful
experiences of my life.
But the feeling that I always
had was just of great discomfort
but also interest. I couldn't
figure out what to do
with that feeling, like
when we started
really breaking the scene down
and the layers of spirituality,
religion, the 23rd psalm,
a budding romance,
family secrets, is it real
or not,
and then all of that is
happening
and fucking white people are
watching 'cause it's all a spell
anyway, like, the robbery of
the intimate moment,
the surveillance of
that intimate moment
made me so uncomfortable
even though I knew
it was very real, even though
I know it's true,
and even though I know that
part of our job on the show
is to portray what really
happened, and,
you know let the audience sit
with that,
it was so uncomfortable,
and it made me so sad
and it still does
when I watch the scene.
I'm like, "I fucking hate
you guys.
I hate that we're watching
this beautiful moment
turn ugly. I hate that
Dora isn't real,
that it's this fantasy
that's so beautiful
and so powerful, but that
they're being watched
while it's happening.
-ASHLEY: It's a violation.
-SHANNON: It's a violation
among violations,
and I still get mad about it
and it had to be done
and we had to present it
that way.
And when they come out of
the room,
you can see they have been
through a trauma.
And, I know how the story ends
and I know
all the great things
our heroes are going to
get to do, but it's just like,
it fucking hurts to this day,
it hurts. In a way that is
also interesting to me
that I want to keep working on,
and keep studying
and keep having all of
these conversations.
ASHLEY: And then we have
Atticus's hallucinations,
and it's really violent.
But it's also the one
I feel like--
Well, Atticus is oddly
the only person
who in the moment is interacting
with the other person
in the room, as if he's
somewhere else.
-SHANNON: Mm.
-ASHLEY: Like I feel like
George is still very aware
of where he is
in terms of like,
the moment in time.
Leti, the same way.
It's this moment in time,
but, Atticus, it feels like
goes somewhere else.
And it's not even necessarily
that I'm like, "Oh, it's like
he's having a PTSD flashback.
Like it's not that simple,
it definitely more so
seems like he just has
a thinner line between
reality and his memory
than his other two.
SHANNON: Yes, I love that
you said that,
'cause it's also like, again,
haunting around
this whole episode, which is
haunting around
the first episode,
is this question,
"What is reality?"
And when you can't quite
put your finger on it,
it's so easy to be haunted by it
to be violated by it.
And I think you're right,
that Atticus has a particular
relationship to his trauma
and his past, and his ghosts,
that our other
two characters don't have,
they have their
own relationships,
but his does feel a little bit
different.
Some of you may have caught this
and some of you may have not,
but in that gorgeous opening
dream sequence of episode one,
there's a woman telling him
to suffer, suffer.
And I do just quickly wanna
return to this concept of
the white gaze and how troubling
it is, and how upsetting it is.
When they come out of
their rooms, after having
these hallucinations,
and they realize that
they were being manipulated
and that they were
being surveilled and that
they were being watched.
There's something here about
how the white gaze impacts,
derails, misunderstands,
influences, the Black narrative.
And you know, when George pulls
Leti and Atticus together
and he's like basically,
"Don't let them define you."
ATTICUS:
 Something happened in the war.
-Something bad.
-GEORGE: Don't.
You know who you are.
You...
were a good boy.
And you even a better man.
Don't you ever let them
make you question yourself.
That's how they win.
SHANNON: "That's not who
you are,"
or "whatever was happening
is not real,"
there's some truth to that,
and then there is something real
that happened in
those hallucinations
that I think our characters
do wanna unpack,
but they also kind of can't,
'cause they can't separate
their real feelings from
the impact of this gaze.
I love just getting
the audience to think more
about, what our world, our art,
our history looks like,
the more we distance ourselves
from the white gaze,
white surveillance and
white influence, if we can,
it's a hard task. But, I think
there's something to,
working towards that.
ASHLEY: I absolutely agree.
I think-- (LAUGHS)
I honestly think kind of
everything,
is working towards that.
That's kind of the issue
with the white gaze as it stands
because the white gaze isn't
just about the fact that
when you look at me,
you don't necessarily have
like, the cultural knowledge,
or you know, maybe even
the social knowledge
to really know how to interact
with me on the level
of someone who I would have
grown up with
in the same neighborhood,
who shares my background
and shares my skin color.
Like, yeah,
you aren't going to interact
with me that way.
Especially not initially.
Nor should you.
The problem, like and this is
for white folks,
the problem is that
because of your ingrained
life and indoctrination,
or for the most part
the overwhelming majority
consuming white media,
being in community with just
white folks,
going to white schools,
going to white colleges.
Like living lives that are
just incredibly homogenous.
And doing that, and your
non-curiosity about Black folks,
you are creating a situation
where the minute you walk into
a room, the minute you enter
the conversation,
I'm already thinking about
what I'm going to have to change
and what you're not gonna
understand,
and how that's gonna effect
the way I tell my story.
-SHANNON: (EXHALES)
-ASHLEY: To be perfectly honest
I don't think it's necessarily
true that Black folks are
you know like secretive about
trauma more than anybody else,
I do think the reasoning around
it comes from the white gaze.
-SHANNON: Amen.
-ASHLEY: Which has been that
traditionally it ends with
feeling like my story has
been exploited, or it has been
flattened to fit a narrative
that makes sense with what
they've already been taught.
It's really hard to want to
tell the truth to people
who don't actually wanna learn
anything new.
SHANNON: Ooh, yes, I love it.
And then the other thing
that's happening,
is like our characters are
trying to get away
from the white gaze, right?
They finally find Montrose,
and that's a hilarious scene
in and of itself,
'cause he doesn't really wanna
be found
-and doesn't need their fucking
help.
-ASHLEY: Oh yeah.
MONTROSE: What the hell
 y'all doing here?
GEORGE: We-- we're here to
 save you!
MONTROSE: I can save
 my damn self!
I don't need y'all coming
for me.
ATTICUS: You wrote for me
 to come.
MONTROSE: Boy, we ain't spoken
 over five damn years.
And you fight me on
everything.
I didn't think you were
stupid enough to show up
'cause I wrote a letter
under duress.
GEORGE: You don't need to
 talk to him like that!
MONTROSE: I'll talk to my son
 however the hell I want to!
LETI: Can we get the fuck
 outta here, please?
SHANNON: But they find him,
and they're trying to flee
and we think they're going
to escape.
And of course, the car crashes
into this invisible force,
and we are reminded
that white people
are always watching.
They cannot escape,
and after our heroes
have been captured again
in the final moments
of the episode,
Atticus literally brings
the house down
during this epic ceremony.
And we see one
of my favorite characters
in the history of television,
Hanna,
his ancestor who is saving him.
I have a lot of thoughts.
ASHLEY:
Talk to me about Hanna, Shannon.
Please talk to me about Hanna.
SHANNON: I mean, first of all,
can we just give it up
for black women?
-Black femmes?
-ASHLEY: Come on. One time.
(CLAPPING)
SHANNON:
Um, just love it. I love...
the idea of you're in a moment
of distress,
and we've seen one character
in a moment of distress
call on the Lord, and there's
nothing wrong with that.
And then, we see
another character
in this moment of distress
and Atticus isn't calling
on his ancestor
'cause he doesn't know
that he even can do that,
but there she is.
Hanna is there, and...
she is the person who survived
the first great fire
in this lodge,
which was during the time
of Titus Braithwhite.
And she ran into the forest
pregnant, an enslaved woman,
and she survived. This person
seems really important.
Why wasn't her memory kept alive
in this family?
Why don't we know more
about her?
We'll have to keep watching
to find out,
but maybe we can talk
a little bit
about, like, this relationship
between black families
and memory
and the stories
that we pass down.
ASHLEY: Absolutely. Absolutely.
You know, I...
have talked a little bit online
about the fact
that when my grandmother
passed away, she left me
a journal,
where she had written out
a lot of her story as a child,
things that she had
never mentioned to me before.
My grandmother talked to me
about everything, honey,
like more than I wanted to be
talked to about. I promise you.
But we had this moment
before she died,
where she told me that she would
leave me something like that,
and I didn't really believe her
because she doesn't talk
about her life.
And that is not uncommon
for a lot of my folks,
who have black grandparents,
that they don't talk
a whole lot about their parents
or their past except
for a few stories here or there
that they repeat over and over
and over.
This episode really made me
think about,
like the idea of having
or not having memories
and what that does
to your story.
One of the things that happens
early in the episode
is like some weird memory loss.
-SHANNON: Yes.
-ASHLEY: Uh... (CHUCKLES)
Like not being able to remember
the danger you were just in
because now,
you're exceedingly comfortable.
-SHANNON: Ooh.
-ASHLEY: Where, like, actually
it's a spell,
but to me,
it's this idea, right.
That, like, if you get
to a certain point,
and I think this is a dream
for a lot of people
and especially people who have
dealt with racialized trauma,
is that if you get
to a certain level
or point of comfort,
you will forget the bad things.
-SHANNON: Yes.
-ASHLEY: That it will actually
erase them.
But there's something about Tic
that he does not forget.
-SHANNON:
Yes, and he looks crazy...
-ASHLEY: Yes.
SHANNON:
...to the other characters,
and in this time period,
it's like he's ruining
their fun.
George has a frickin' library
full of limited edition,
first edition literature that
he's dying to get his hands on.
Leti's wardrobe, which I just
feel like we should discuss
in every podcast episode
because every episode,
her wardrobe is insane. But
this one is on another level.
-ASHLEY: Hard agree.
-SHANNON: They're having fun
in a weird way.
You know, they know that
it's not necessarily safe here,
but there's this levity.
And then, there's this, like,
you could say angry black man,
who's like, "No, we need
to be on guard.
There are monsters around"
And they're like, "Monsters?"
So, there's definitely
something interesting happening
there.
And I loved the story you shared
about your grandmother
because I do think that that
speaks directly to what
the show is directly trying
to say
about how we raise our children,
what we keep from them
in the name of family secrets
or protection
and what really isn't
protection at all.
Again, only George knows
about Hanna.
Atticus doesn't know about
the George-Montrose-Dora
entanglement.
What are robbing our children of
and future generations of
when we don't pass down
all the stories?
Who knows
who Atticus might have been
-if he had known about Hanna?
-ASHLEY: Right.
SHANNON: Who knows if they
would even be in this situation.
And there's this other moment...
This is what I wanted to talk
about earlier
about the hallucinations
because I think this also speaks
to what you're talking about,
about like suppressing
certain trauma in the family
for the good of the family.
And I love this scene
where George pulls
Leti and Atticus in,
and he tells Atticus,
just as Atticus is about to say
something about his vision,
something happened in the war.
And George kind of cuts him off
and he says,
"You were a good boy,
and you're an even better man."
And I remember loving that scene
so much
when we talked about it
in the writer's room,
and also of course, we knew
what was going to happen
to George,
so we wanted to like, get you
all feeling great
about what a great parental
figure George is. (CHUCKLES)
ASHLEY:
How dare you. How dare you.
SHANNON: Yes, so that
was definitely intentional,
but I look at the scene now,
I also am like,
-there's a danger here.
-Mm-hmm.
Because Atticus is actually
about to share a little bit
about what happened in the war,
maybe, and George is actively
suppressing
that traumatic experience.
The intention being I want you
to get through this,
I don't want you to be--
basically so fucked up
over what happened
that we don't survive
whatever is about to happen.
So again, it's about protecting
this person,
but I also think,
now that I've seen it again,
that George is doing it
because he doesn't want
to answer any questions
about the vision he just had.
-ASHLEY: Yes.
-SHANNON: I-- I love George,
but I'm like,
this is bad parenting
'cause you're trying
to hide things
-and you're teaching...
-ASHLEY: Yes.
SHANNON: ...this person
in your life that that's okay.
ASHLEY: Yes, and that's what
we do to each other in general.
-SHANNON: Yes.
-ASHLEY: In general,
the things that people
most don't want to talk about
are the things they don't want
to talk about
-their experience with.
-SHANNON: Hmm.
ASHLEY: It's really the fact
that if you talk about it,
then I should talk about it,
and I don't want
to talk about it
and don't actually wanna put up
the boundary to say
"I don't want to talk about it,"
which is a different way
of making myself vulnerable.
And it's also the thing
that keeps us,
I think as a people, most often,
from being able
to fully trust ourselves
because some much of how
we get affirmation of what
we've seen
and what we experienced
in a sick, racist society
is by turning to people
in the community
and having to basically ask them
like, "This happens, right?"
-SHANNON: Right.
-ASHLEY: And you need people
who can say,
"Look, this happens.
(CHUCKLES)
And it is a thing
that has been happening...
-SHANNON: Yes. Yeah.
-ASHLEY: ...for a long time."
ASHLEY:
And I think that unfortunately,
we have a lot of people
who haven't had the opportunity
to have that knowledge
passed onto them,
and they struggle
with no trusting themselves.
You know, I read something
the other day that said,
"You know you live in
a sick society
when in order to become healthy,
you have to unlearn everything
they gave you."
-SHANNON: (LAUGHS) Yes.
-ASHLEY: And...
I think about that here,
which is that we don't have
the information, which is
an opportunity to unlearn
what society is telling us
and the story that they tell us
about us.
If we don't have the information
from our ancestors
and our elders
about the truth in what
really happened,
it is really easy for us
to be confused and caught up
in this sick society
trying to unlearn
while also have to live here.
You need somebody to remind you.
Somebody who put their hand
on your shoulder and say,
"When you look over there and
you see that, I see it, too."
SHANNON:
Yes. And I think the inclination
can be to shut down
to protect
and to keep those secrets.
As a parent, I understand that,
but the results
of that shutting down
can be more destructive
than we think.
-And that's kind of what
our characters are about...
-ASHLEY: Part of it.
SHANNON:
...to start grappling with,
and we end on this, like...
-I don't even know. This moment.
-(ASHLEY GROANS)
-A terrible moment.
A beautiful terrible moment.
-SHANNON: Terrible.
Beautiful, terrible.
Beautiful and terrible,
that's a good--
-That's about it. Right?
-Yes.
-That's about how you would
describe...
-ASHLEY: Yes.
SHANNON:
...the feeling of this show.
ASHLEY: And I can't wait to see
what happens next episode.
SHANNON: We're gonna leave
you guys with
some references
and recommendations.
Ashley, I would like you
to commit to starting
to watch
 Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
ASHLEY:
Do you want that from me?
SHANNON: I would like--
and you can make me commit
to something, too--
but I would like that for you
because-- part of the reason
I said that
is because this episode
reminds me of Buffy
in a lot of ways,
like creepy rituals,
white people in kind of
sexy hoods,
monsters, and a lot magic.
I mean, again Buffy's
a lot of things
and this show
is a lot of things,
but I'm like,
there's a vibe here
that I know
you would appreciate.
So we can-- I won't put you
on the spot now,
but just think about making
that commitment to us.
-ASHLEY:
100 percent. 100 percent.
-SHANNON: Okay, thank you.
I love it.
So we have Buffy vibes.
There's The House
 on the Borderland
because it's the book
that George realizes
opens the secret library, and
he's talking about it with Dora.
Obviously, the Book of Genesis,
the story of creation
and man's fall.
You might want to peruse
that one again.
Paradise Lost, I thought of
because of this, like,
twisty relationship to religion
and the story of Eve I love.
What else should we leave
our audience with, Ashley?
ASHLEY: "Whitey on the Moon."
-SHANNON: Hmm!
-ASHLEY: The video
by Gil Scott-Heron.
If you haven't
already encountered it,
check it out.
If you haven't cried yourself
to sleep lately,
go listen to "River"
by Leon Bridges.
-Everybody loves
a little Leon Bridges.
-SHANNON: Mm-hmm.
ASHLEY: "Lucifer"
by Charles Bradley,
which is a fantastic song.
There's so much happening here
with religion
and the idea of like
the serpent and the devil
and stuff. It's a really,
really gorgeous, fun soul song.
SHANNON: Yes, I'll throw in
a couple websites that I love.
I've mentioned some
of the writers
that I'm familiar with
from one website, RaceBaitr,
and also
The Black Youth Project.
Those are two websites
that influence my work
as a writer and also influence
my work on the show.
ASHLEY: I actually really like
RaceBaitr.
-SHANNON: Yes.
-ASHLEY: So excited for people
to check that out.
-Shannon, that's our show
for the week.
-SHANNON: Whew. We did it. Um...
I can't believe that we are
just on episode two.
ASHLEY: It's wild to me
that we're just on episode two.
There's so much more
to talk about,
and I'm so excited to keep
talking about it.
SHANNON: Yes.
Thank you for listening.
The show is hosted by us.
I'm Shannon Houston.
ASHLEY: And I'm Ashley C. Ford.
This podcast was produced
by HBO in conjunction
with Pineapple Street Studios.
Our executive producers
Jenna Weiss-Berman,
Max Linsky and Bari Finkel.
Agerenesh Ashagre
is our managing producer.
This episode's lead producer
is Jess Jupiter,
and our associate producers
are Alexis Moore
and Natalie Brennan.
Our editors
are Maddy Sprung-Keyser
and Josh Gwynn.
Noriko Okabe is our engineer.
Original music by composer
Amanda Jones.
SHANNON: If you like the show
and have a minute,
you can review and rate
this podcast via Apple Podcasts,
Spotify or anywhere else
you might get your podcast.
It really helps people
find the show.
You can also stream the podcast
on HBO and HBO Max.
We'll be back next week
for episode three,
which premieres on HBO
and streams on HBO Max
on August 30th at 9:00 p.m.
Eastern.
ASHLEY: See you guys.
SHANNON: See you guys next week.
