In the wake of the police killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis protests have erupted around the country
calling attention to racial disparities in the way that blacks are treated by the criminal justice system,
and by American society more generally.
Brown University's Glenn Loury
has emerged as one of the most vocal and outspoken critics of Black Lives Matter
and other groups arguing that systemic racism is
at the center of the African-American experience
in the contemporary United States.
Loury also worries that our institutions are failing to affirm the primacy of reason over violence
in calibrating our reactions to the supposed oppression as he wrote in response to his schools
public position on protests.
The 72 year old professor, the first African-American to be granted tenure in Harvard's economics department,
talked with Reason via Zoom about how
the US has changed for the better over his lifetime,
why understanding history is vital to social change, and whether rational discourse has any purchase left
in social and political debates.
Glenn Loury thanks for talking to Reason. Good to be with you Nick.
So you are a critic of arguments that systemic racism is the primary cause for problems facing black Americans.
Yeah. You recently told City Journal of the Manhattan Institute about
policing in America you said there is a
problem but I think the scale its scale
is exaggerated and in the same interview
you commented on the killing of George
Floyd and you said that case is terrible
and that there's really no kind of
talking your way out of what you what
people see there can you disentangle
those two statements a bit one which is
that the case of George Floyd is
terrible and it's on you know it's on
display for all of everybody to see and
then also that there is a problem with
policing and black communities in
America but it's been overstated okay so
I mean I start with the observation that
every one of these violent incidents
comes to our attention because of the
structure of information dissemination
in the society with these mobile phones
and all of this video with this network
social media mediated of fever pitch
attuned a hive of back and forth that
goes on so we know every single one of
these s that you can name these names
these names are known to us they number
in the dozens for whatever but it's a
country of 330 main people they're tens
of thousands of encounters of variety of
kinds that are ongoing the determination
that I will view my reality through the
kind of hysterical reaction to
legitimately troubling incidents but
they are relatively few in number and
not characteristic of the of the
day-to-day life of African Americans in
the country so you know the question
here is about race
do these incidents indicate something
about the tenor of race relations I'm
still not entirely persuaded that these
are racial incidents I think the the
routine and habitual reporting of these
incidents characterizing them in terms
of the race of the people who
participate presupposes a motive for
action which is in almost all the cases
never established we just presume that a
white police officer is acting in some
way against they couldn't put black on
our man because of their whiteness and
blackness respectively we don't really
stop and think about that imputation
think about that presupposition as I've
tried to indicate and some of my
commentary there's a lot of quote black
crime close by on that time my black on
black crime just talking about black
people breaking the law there's a lot of
do we want to dwell on the fact that
they're black we talk about race in
America I've been going back to the
founding because blacks and whites are
you know in early on it was White's who
wanted to talk about race and and kind
of created but we don't talk honestly
about it I mean consider so we talked
about these viral incidents like George
Floyd now in many of these encounters I
say he was only trying to pass a $20
bill and he got 9-1-1 called yet era guy
who was only selling loose cigarettes
out in front of a convenience store
Michael Brown was only it is not
supposed to even be relevant
strong-arming a pierce a package of
cigarettes etc etc in so many of these
instances the victim is resisting and
attacking the police officer the police
officers use of force may be
disproportionate true enough but can it
be irrelevant that the incident is
precipitated by the quote victim
resisting and using violence against
police arms can that be irrelevant now
again I want to emphasize is the race of
the person who resists the rest a
relevant datum in assessing what's going
on so my bottom line on all of this is I
feel like we're out of touch with
reality that we're really letting it
kinda
never politics and it kind of meta
racialized moralism which I don't think
really is very deeply philosophically
moral at all equity equality but define
in terms of race we're letting that kind
of thing drive us and I and it troubles
me very much about the intellectual
political climate of the country at this
so you you in the same interview with
City Journal you said I'm 72 years old
and I know what things were like in the
1950s and 1960s the United States has
become a completely different country
whites can lose their jobs today if they
talk to blacks in the wrong tone
institutions at all levels of government
work full-time against racism every
University a major corporation has a
powerful executive position that man
monitors and strives for diversity and
inclusion can you sketch a little bit
about how things have changed over your
lifetime you know your professional
lifetime you've been a professor since
1976 are things better or worse for
blacks in terms of kind of everyday
material conditions I think you'd have
to say they're better I think if you
just looked at the baseline set of
social indicators you know educational
attainment penetration of certain kinds
of occupations family income and so
forth like that certainly things are
better and they're relatively better
although they are not anywhere near
purity as compared to the mid-50s I mean
occupational structure I think the the
modal occupation for employee black
women in 1950 was domestic I'm pretty
sure that that's true
I think you had a minuscule number of
people in the professions in medicine
and law and in the act and so on and you
could go down those indicators I think
however that if you were to look at
other indicators like the stability of
family life like the degree of criminal
violence like I mean you might even find
in terms of effective school performance
because there was really unequal
educational provision to African
American students so whatever
performance disparities might have
existed in nineteen fifty well might
have been accounted for by differential
access to resources whereas today you
get large performance gap
by race even when you conditional
resources evil in those resources of
middle class that's where affirmative
action comes you know I'm sorry no well
I guess the main thing that's changed
over time I mean those questions were
really the legitimacy of the things that
King and company were working for in the
late 50s in the 1960s were in question
everybody was not on the same page in
terms of affirming the legitimacy of
those claims everybody is on the same
page i'm kiza
is a national holiday I mean it's not
the same country it's ridiculous to
think of it as the same country and if I
may I'd say I think these things are not
unrelated I think the fact that it's not
the same country and that the underlying
structures have moved much more in the
direction of civil rights for
african-americans equal rights together
with the fact that there are very
substantial performance differences
across a range of social indicators
including crime and violence and
encounters with the police
disadvantageous to african-americans
disfavoring african-americans the
combination of those two things the
opening of the society basically and the
consisting in persisting under
performance and differential achievement
across racial lines that's what's pretty
I think that's what's creating this
crisis so yeah what I want to ask is if
things and I agree with you and in you
know virtually any possible way that you
want to measure it things are better for
blacks now than they were you know then
they were 50 years ago or 70 years ago
but we don't talk about things in those
terms is there an inability of discourse
about kind of racism and inclusion and
change that precludes the possibility of
progress that's one question and then
let's get to the question about how the
differential outcomes for certain blacks
you know kind of skews the conversation
but is it that were incapable of talking
about progress about social progress
that's an interesting way of putting it
I think I might agree with that if that
were the claim the claim is we're not
really able to have an effective
deliberation or a discourse and I think
that's true I suppose there could be
theories about why is true you know I
think there's a lot of dishonesty and a
lot of kind of avoid ease but I do and I
just feel like yeah yeah I just want to
say virtue signaling there's a lot of
more posturing there's a lot of you know
kind of branding you know that it seems
to me that like for example the spate of
corporations coming off the black lives
matter you can't tell me they have a
politics they don't have a racial
politics it's it's just like the Super
Bowl you know you want to have your your
brand advance by making a statement
within a certain context so I think
there's a lot of that sorry so since
that is that I mean is that what you
mean when you say dishonesty it's
certainly virtue signaling and but I
mean are people who are saying that you
know the country is worse now and I'm
saying it could be somebody like Al
Sharpton but there are wide numbers of
of white people of white spokesman of
you know if that even makes sense who
will say that you know this country is
has an irremediable race problem and
that things are as bad now as they've
ever been I mean they're just being
dishonest or do they actually believe
that as of course they're being
dishonest of course they're being
dishonest I mean I I don't I don't know
what they're talking about look around
the world
I mean his history wasn't pad of course
there was slavery I mean there's no
denying that there was a race and here's
a race phenomenon within the context of
American history but this is an open
society african-americans are the
richest and most powerful people of
African descent on the planet there's
nothing that's not possible for my son
to dream of people are clamoring to try
to get inside of the United States we
have birthright citizenship here I don't
know what people are talking about the
fact of enslavement now more than a
century and a half in the past is only
loosely related it's a it's a social
construction the way that people have
tried to make disconnect
so I you know an irredeemable racist
yeah we're in the freest most prosperous
greatest potential for the remedy of any
particular problem most uh you know kind
of responsive to look what's happened on
the gay rights thing and though that's
not race but I mean just not a stop to
find closed inflexible domineering
society this is a dynamic and open
morally reflective and I think at the
end of the day virtuous Society and I
would say compared to what we're talking
about so you have you mentioned you know
but there are differential outcomes for
you know among blacks and whites in the
past you've written and this was a
critique of the bell curve and of people
like James Q Wilson who I want to talk
about Wilson a little bit later in more
detail but you you were saying that it
is not a sign of I mean you don't
believe in racial essentialism that
there is something you know in
irreducible in blacks or whites how and
whites is a category that changes as
frequently in its definitions as blacks
do what what goes into explaining the
different outcomes and then how does
that come back to pollute but you know
discourse about individual flourishing
or or not in America yeah I mean I've
been thinking about since my
dissertation which was written under the
guidance of Robert Solow the great
Robert solo at MIT he was a growth
theorist I mean his he had made his own
very substantial represent a reputation
resulting in a Nobel Prize and modeling
you know the dynamic of the accumulation
of capital via the market where people
are saving for the future and then they
funds underwrite investments that
friends are making and the population is
growing and so the you know how does
this kind of arc of economic evolution
of economic growth and in its foundation
and my dissertation sorry but you did
ask I'll be brief I'll be bring up like
my dissertation tried to apply some of
the same
conceptual framework the intertemporal
decision-making and the structure of
markets and investments and production
functions and things of this kind but to
the transgenerational transfer of
economic status through parents
investing in their kids and through
seeing the populations evolving over
time you know say black and white toward
more or less equality as the individuals
within them became a more or less
effective economic agents etc so I've
been think about this for a very long
time I mean I would say you've got
you've got a number of things here and I
wouldn't necessarily leave genetics how
if I were going to speak as a scientist
although I think if I were to speak as a
practical person I'm not not want to go
there I mean I think a lot of those are
open questions I'm read Charles Marie's
book the most recent one human diversity
where he examines foundational and bio
genetic differences between human
populations whether by gender or by
ancestral descent which is his
substitute for race and class yeah by
socially I know is there not I know
that's not what we're talking about here
but but I just want to say you can't
rule all those questions out our priori
that's that's anti-scientific that's
anti reason you can't move those
questions out our priori certainly it's
possible in principle that there could
be some such effects how many how big
and what how would they work and what
consequence and what remedy I mean I
think the discourse about intrinsic
differences if it only turns on the
existential question or question whether
or not such differences exist it's a
fool's errand to try to stop that
question but the question is about how
much significance should be given and
moreover and perhaps more importantly
what are the interventions that could
mitigate or or make you know much less
significant whatever these there have
been like eyeglass corrected vision
etcetera so yeah but what what is the
what's the social equivalent of
eyeglasses I'm wearing contacts or
glasses we both would be dead you know
you know a couple of centuries ago you
know what is what's the
of that in contemporary American life so
that people who grow up poor don't end
up passing on a poorer life to their
children who then pass it on yeah since
I'm not Charles Mary I'm not going to
try to know what but in an American
context you know one of the things that
is stunning is that whatever you
whatever we might say about the income
gaps between whites and blacks and Asian
Americans and you can break it down into
more discrete ethnic groups it you know
the the wealth gap what what gets
inherited you know is even larger so you
know what goes into talking about
differential outcomes of groups or is
that the wrong way to be looking at I
don't think for the practical purpose of
what we're trying to talk about here
which is this moment that we're in a
crisis an agitation that it's a waste of
time to talk about groups and about
group differences and I had you know
merely mentioned in passing about the
natural differences of the genetic stuff
because i'd mainly want to focus on as I
said capital and financial and human and
social capital connectivity what does
the network look like what does the
community look like I mean I tried to
elaborate this a little bit I did an
essay for the Manhattan Institute a year
or two ago on persistent racial
inequality and I try to I say look let's
talk about human development well you
know because that's basically what we're
talking about when we're talking about
behavioral problems that manifest in you
know incarceration or academic
achievement or whatever or we're talking
about the felony we're talking about how
individuals acquired the traits that are
going to be valued in the marketplace
and that are gonna allow them to be
effective in life to be good citizens
and neighbors and parents and all that
and the the disparities that we're
seeing I want to say and Isis is you
know extremely controversial I think are
a reflection basically of disparities in
the development of these respective
populations categorized by race
I don't think I could possibly be
irrelevant that the majority of kids
born to a black woman are born to a
woman without a husband
III don't know the answer to all these
social psychological questions but the
possibility that aberrant behavior among
male adolescents might have some
functional connection to father absence
how can you rule that out
the violence and suddenly the level of
violence you telling me that has no
cultural component I don't believe you I
don't believe you okay did we just don't
want to go there you know so these
developmental impediments well may have
their route in slavery and
marginalization this is the
philosophical thing that's here is that
it's irrelevant it's relevant what the
historical genesis of whatever kind of
behavioral male adaptations might impede
the human development of a substantial
proportion of a racially defined
population source to create disparity it
doesn't matter that the historical
patrimony because this is not about
assigning blame this is about what the
possibilities aren't going forward and
in that case if you don't address the
behavioral route I mean for example
school discipline so if you just look at
the statistics it's an outsize order of
magnitude like differences the rate of
the kids are disciplining because
they're acting out in school by race now
maybe you shouldn't suspend kids from
school maybe you should have shouldn't
have police officers in school to deal
with behaviorally problematic kids
whatever we could discuss the policy
issue but a racial disparity of the
magnitude that you can observe the data
is not plausibly the consequence of the
racial racism and discrimination of the
school district it is much more
plausibly a reflection of disparate
behavior across racial groups of kids
within the school is disruptive okay so
you're saying if I just to summarize
what you're saying is when well when
people some
people will say black kids black boys
especially get suspended from school or
they get detention or whatever passes
for discipline at far higher rates than
white kids do one story that people say
is that's because the system is racist
or whether it's intended or not it ends
up creating it ends up defining black
male behavior as criminal as problematic
and then it puts those kids into a
category where you know there are
problems at school they become problems
in the workplace they've become problems
in society what you're saying is no
actually what we're talking about here
is basically a difference in behavior
that has its roots in cultural
phenomenon and it leads to bad outcomes
and that it's not about systemic racism
as much as it is about the failure of
kind of cultures and subcultures to
produce the types of people who are
going to be successful in a given
society that's precisely what I'm saying
okay that's exactly what I say I mean at
what I want to just amend is to say I
don't know that for a fact but it's an
entirely plausible and defensible
hypothesis and if true attributing the
situation of something called systemic
racism of a avoids addressing the
behavioural underpinnings which are
problematic in and of themselves and B D
normalizes so that the ability to make a
judgment about behavior becomes
undermined as we in effect look askance
look enough I mean look away from avoid
the the reality of the of the underlying
differences in behavior not difference
in how they're treated by the system I
would allow though that the fact of the
difference is significant in and of
itself it does contribute to a more
generic stereotypic denigrating social
meaning of the blackness of those kids
yeah black boys become you know
presumptively problematic and
undoubtedly there will be instances
where people were acting on that
presumption erroneously to the
disadvantage of stuff perfectly innocent
person all of that it will also be a
part of the situation
so what are the types of interventions
then that you that you think are useful
because you know what it they
intervention that the anti-racists are
making is what we need to change the way
that we define problematic behavior we
need to intervene in the economy and and
you know and through government welfare
programs or transfer programs less
loaded term your you're not a fan of
that necessarily what are what are the
types of interventions that would help
black kids prosper and also change the
rhetoric so that we're talking more
about behavior rather than group
differences I suppose I should have an
answer that question I don't I don't
know and that puts you in the position
of me in the position of being a critic
without without the you know substitute
so I mean I'm you know people gonna say
a lot of things as far as I am aware the
evidence that you can mitigate the you
know socially disruptive through you
know so more generous social provision I
mean I I think that's I suppose we have
to talk case-by-case about program by
program but I I think it's kind of you
know doesn't you're not gonna solve the
security problem in American cities
through morons you know midnight
basketball you know the job training
more social workers is that a you know
could you trace your kind of
intellectual journey since you know
getting you know I applaud you for
finishing your dissertation I get to so
we let you know we know that division
which which people talk about a B DS and
all of that kind of stuff you know what
how has your understanding of the role
of the government in helping people to
either flourish or fail has that have
you followed the same course over the
course of your career or have you gone
through various changes
that because what you just said you know
and Dame checking midnight basketball of
course goes back to the Bill Clinton Joe
Biden crime bill or the 90s where exam
the idea was that but you know and that
made sense and we were in a moment of
rising crime rates I mean for twenty
thirty years crying I've been going up
significantly and the idea was that if
you gave more kids in the inner city
which was both a code word and not a
code word for blacks and minorities but
also poor whites if you gave them more
social opportunities like suburban kids
had if things would work out better
you're saying that didn't work were you
always in that camp and then where are
you you know where are you now no I
wasn't always in that camp I think I was
much more could when I came out of
graduate school much more of a dis
conventional kind of Liberal Democrat I
was Pro affirmative action all through
the early eighties and I finished my
thesis in 76 I I mean all the people
that are consorted with my you know good
friends and associates would have been
would have been more or less liberal you
know Jimmy Carter types but the regular
evolution actually upset me I mean guys
like jude wanniski you know George
Gilder I'm not kidding I mean I was
actually reading these books I was
watching these like the David Stockman's
and and the whatnot he's the young
congressman that were kind of critical
and I and I you know I was at MIT and
MIT would have been a you know social
democrat left-of-center of those softly
left of sinner
you know Sampson the founders certainly
very much but also econometrics I mean
and and scientific right chromatid been
amazing what an amazing but but they
were they were occasions okay they were
you know they were and there was Chicago
and Freeman and you know UCLA and there
was this kind of more right-wing kind of
thing but I always appreciated Friedrich
von Hayek I remember reading the Road to
Serfdom when I was an undergraduate and
I was always getting word of this the
beauty of this of these insights about
markets and informational
decentralization
efficiency and whatnot and always
suspicious of the of the fashionable
kind of lefty soft lefty kind of quasi
Marxist I was chosen by date 90s by the
I guess mid to late 90s you were calling
yourself a black conservative Wow yeah
yeah I got you do you regret that and/or
you know what happened was that you know
was that a rebranding of you know Pepsi
as the taste of a new generation or
something what what made you into a
black conservative uh I think it was
cultural I was kind of traditionalists
in the culture war stuff
some of it was opportunistic I happen at
a particular moment you know I was
writing these essays and neo-cons kind
of adopted me perhaps at the New
Republic poetic commentary
crystal Irving Kristol at the Public
Interest Richard John Newhouse late
Richard John Newhouse at first things
and before that whatever he was doing it
the religion so that I was kind of
consorting with a set of people all
right it was a number of different
things I mean some of it was I didn't
think the Sandinistas or the greatest
socialism it absolutely devastated huge
swathes affecting hundreds of millions
of people in Africa behind all these
what I thought were ridiculous
centralized easily appropriated by
political factions rich seeking you know
creaming off the top I mean you know
yeah so it was it was strange wasn't
that in in a post-colonial era where
people were you know in the developing
world were rejecting Western imperialism
somehow Marxism didn't count as a
Western phenomenon yeah that's nice
point actually read them read Marx you
know they haven't really hate goal they
you know they have recon you know I mean
they're ready
so what uh you know what but by the same
token you became critical of the of the
kind of neocon establishment in the
domestic version anyway what what where
do you find yourself now and what I mean
is it that you have been staying
straight and true kind of to a an ethic
of inquiry or of empiricism and the
cultures around you are changing or what
you know how do you how do you identify
yourself politically now and and I guess
in a deeper way methodologically or
ideologically what you know what are
your self descriptors I feel like a man
without a country politically I am an
economist I mean it and I'm a liberal in
the in the very respectable you know
classical tradition today and you know
I'm a traditionalist I used to be
religious I mean really religious I was
baptized at the age of 40 I was
effectively a deacon in a church
congregation where my wife my late wife
Linda and I worshiped for over a decade
what was what that was what what sect
was that you could sure describe was it
was am II asking the statistical would
be the denomination so it was a mainline
Protestant the congregation was someone
on the charismatic you know more kind of
evangelicals so did you have to go back
to Jimmy Carter did you have a
born-again experience so you know I had
what I chose to construct as a
born-again experience in the context of
my own particular life coming out of
drug addiction in a kind of big public
fall when I was at Harvard and you know
got into a scandal and it was kind of
you know rehabilitating and and things
were coming together for me in a
different way and my wife stuck by me
through this horrible humiliation in our
son Glenn we had two sons she's deceased
now Linda Lowery but
we were coming through this and the
church was a part of it I mean a it was
also perfect you know I mean I was kind
of in a be still a de-emphasize ego kind
of you know really kind of fundamental
contemplation how did I get to this
point you know I I have to say you know
I in researching this interview it's
it's hard to get a full picture of you
because these different descriptors get
attached to and so this is fascinating
and I didn't expect to be talking about
born again born again experience but
that helped you restructure your life
and come out of addiction and and put
your life back together right did you
have a and and I mean there's a clear
individualist reign in that of you know
both your working within a system but
you have to make autonomous choices I
mean you as a liberal makes total sense
did you have a debt again experience or
how did you how did you live religiosity
leave your life was it you know did you
have a Damascus Road experience to get
there and one out or I'll tell you the
story I can tell it very bit my
assistant I started an Institute at
Boston University where I was a
professor for about 15 years in the 90s
in early aughts and I had an assistant
she was my right hand and the wonderful
woman and she died of a heart ailment at
the age of like 42 and there's a long
story that I'll keep short but her life
was blossoming and she was cut short she
happened to be a member of my
congregation her funeral it was at her
funeral where the God's not dead he's
still alive I can still hear the him
echoing as people danced around the
church celebrating her everlasting life
she is not with Jesus and I didn't
believe it again I made the long story
short the point is it came to me that I
didn't believe it I didn't believe in
life after death I mean I recognized
that I did not believe it and I thought
as I again and you know her mother came
to tell me that we mustn't more
cut down upon the way she's 42 a viral
infection oven her I knew she was ill in
May and August she was dead
so could we not merely pause for a
moment and accept that the Abbess goes
all the way down this was my thought all
right I ended up I ended up Nick with
Nietzsche I went I went back it was like
a dev again moment because I realized
and I did not believe it I mean what did
I not believe concretely I didn't
believe that Jesus lives to this day
right I mean that's the point the point
of Christianity is he's living if he
don't believe that I don't know what
you're talking about okay so I kind of
you know now now now the the the music
of my life that was provided by my
Christian faith and community was
absolutely compelling so I I had to like
reckon with whether or not I could
continue to participate
when I recognize that my conviction just
didn't you know III was serving on the
board of Charles Coulson's Prison
Fellowship Ministries and I stepped down
and they thought that I had done it out
of a kind of black anger they thought
that I thought that they were racist cuz
you know this Charles quotes and they're
conservatives but I didn't I didn't I I
loved what they were doing as a global
ministry you know to any 50 million
dollar budget serving people ask
Christians inside prisons all over the
planet it's nothing wrong with Prison
Fellowship Ministries even to this day
I'm sure but I just could not continue
to serve on that board because I didn't
believe what they were you know it was a
Christian ministry and you know I
couldn't do it so can i you know you
raise an interesting set of topics I
mean based on your your lived experience
because the church you know a Catholic
Church somebody like Clarence Thomas
there's there's a black tradition of
Roman Catholicism somebody like Clarence
Thomas exudes that there's a black
tradition Pentecostalism or evangelical
Christianity as well as mainline
Christianity and you kind of embody some
of that how do you could you talk a
little bit about the tradition of
individualism both within the black
community and kind of individual uplift
as well as in a larger American context
because it seems like that is working
through some of your observations and
some of your analysis of this and as a
libertarian I you know I'm wondering
where has individualism gone in the
current moment everybody's talking about
collective identity could you talk a
little bit about how you see
individualism as a as an important
factor in what you're doing or how you
think about things well I mean I would
say though I'm not a libertarian I am I
I understand that I'm more communitarian
a little bit but we're working on your
client you know with this a what I want
to see you is Booker T Washington no no
slavery you know this kind of and it's
it's I left because of course it's a you
know no one's they ultimate Tom right
yeah yeah exactly but but what I want to
call your attention to is this beautiful
well I think it's a very
found si by herb exploring Herbert's
touring this is called the school of
slavery it was published in eighteen in
1963 a poll of the 100th anniversary of
the Emancipation Proclamation and it's a
tribute to Booker T Washington and how
to make a long story short reminding
Neil conservative friends back in the
80s brought this to my attention and I
was really I was really struck by it
because there's a point there that I
just think is very profound for African
Americans and and the point is that the
status of slavery was objectively
denigrating it was diminishing people
were not developed to their full human
potential
it was dehumanizing it was immoral
it was also objectively infantilizing
and dimension so this is the school
slavery that storing on the 100th
anniversary of the Emancipation
Proclamation is extolling that Booker T
Washington understood the people had to
be developed they had to learn how to
read they had to acquire skills they had
to come to acquire land they had to
inculcate habits they had to be virtuous
they needed respectability they they
were not at some level entirely
respectable I'm sorry
worthy of respect of course but I mean
sorry
slavery actually was a hammer coming
down on people and held them down and
suppressing this kind of point okay so
so here's how I relate that I mean I
think you you basically it's a
philosophical thing you basically have
two large kinds of category of
inspiration that you can bring to bear
I know they look askance at me I'm going
to show them that they're wrong and the
other one is they look askance at me I
don't care what they think
you can either dispel the doubt the
doubt the doubt that plagues the negro I
have used the word in its historical
context that plays the Freedman in the
aftermath of slavery the doubt the doubt
that continues to shadow
african-americans yourself it is
prejudice and so far
racism and some of it is self-doubt I
mean it is baked into the cake okay
social deprivation so what would
equality consistant how can you actually
have equality between people whom his
history has held different hands to
people underestimate the difficulty of
this problem but you mentioned the
wealth gap earlier they talked about
reparations I'm sorry I actually don't
think that solves the problem because
the problem is the different capacities
to generate wealth as between the
populations which is historically in
here in it but it's nonetheless a
problem starting businesses for example
entrepreneurship saving mistaking how
did the West doesn't fall from the sky
so I'm sorry III ramble just a bit I'm
trying to focus on the school of slavery
I'm trying to talk about the lesson the
lesson is the only path to equality is
through dispelling the doubt by
objective performance that's the lesson
so you asked me about individualism
I mean I'm now speaking to a matter that
could be addressed in individualistic
but also in communal ways we African
Americans could see ourselves in some
conscious sense as consisting of a
socio-political entity of some kind of
having some kind of common fate or some
kind of overlapping narratives that
reinforce one another in our identity
quest we might see ourselves in those
terms and create institutions and and
foster and and and uplift ideals about
what a virtuous life is that is because
after all that's what we're doing right
now that ends up shaping in a
developmentally affirmative way the
patterns for our people that's what
we're doing right now all of these
protests and demonstrates all this
remonstrate and all of this myth making
that's going on is is in effect putting
forward not only France comparatives for
the country as a whole but Jesus V the
position of F
Americans certain ideas about what
constitutes virtue what what you know of
those things are gonna play we they can
be shaped by self-conscious more less
self-conscious communal agency so is
that juror is that part of your critique
of things like the 16:19 project at the
New York Times or Michelle Alexander's
conception of what she called in a book
a few years ago the new Jim Crow which
you've been critical of that it
essentially it it creates a system in
which there's very little room for black
autonomy or a self definition of a
community that is somehow prosperous
because it seems as if they conceive of
blackness only in terms of a force that
it's being acted upon and at negative
way direct their appeals it's so ironic
to me it's almost self contradictory in
a way they direct their appeals to the
larger structure to white society which
is called upon to reckon we must finally
have reckoning with racism if only we
would have the conversation about racism
the people would come to terms with our
history well who are these people these
are the people you know that are
supposed to be the the racist I mean as
I put it no one is coming to save us the
supposition that appeal is made in
general to the American public to
somehow reconstitute ourselves so that
racism goes away is I think it's self
contradictory they're racist after all
they're racist that's your supposition
your supposition is that they're racist
why why would they be effectively
manipulated into solving your problem
for you yeah so but but I think there's
a deep problem with the 16:90 know about
Michelle Alexander I I think a Madhu
Verneuil that documentary film she made
the 13th which claims that the 13th
amendment to the Constitution in virtue
of its conclusion of a clause that
allows for involuntary servitude in the
case of someone who's been doing
convicted by a court of law was in fact
a way of smuggling slavery in through
the backdoor such that late 20th and
early 21st century institutions of
incarceration I but the
historical consequence of that sleight
of hand during the Reconstruction and I
mean I think that's ridiculous
I there is a guy that people have their
head in the sand there they're denying
reality as if 150 years of social
history could just be collapsed into a
threadbare narrative of racist
determinism I mean you know it's absurd
but there's another problem that I have
with all of this which is that it
misconstrues the country and it distorts
the relationship of African Americans to
our country what would be wrong with a
certain kind of african-american
nativism dare I say it
assert I mean what I mean is American is
that a source right affirmation of our
citizenship hey a valuing of it I mean I
I mean I think this point is just
fundamental so what what does that look
like well it means that the Civil War
becomes not you know An Inconvenient
blip in your otherwise straight line
400-year narrative domination it becomes
the killing field on which a half a
million or so was slaughtered on behalf
of a political project infect a world
historic transformation of the status of
people who descended from Africans in
the North American continent I mean it
means it means Jefferson's fathering
children with Sally Hemings is not
something to be overlooked to be sure
but does not some II the world historic
early post enlightenment manifestation
of political institutions of Liberty
there's nothing wrong with celebrating
that it means it means that if I have a
beef about how the cops are handling
recalcitrant citizens who happen to be
of color
I don't use the ritual celebration it's
just a a little ceremony they're playing
the anthem and the flag is waved I don't
make that decide I don't talk about
going to the United Nations to have
America investigated for the fact that
it hasn't resolved certain disputes
about the Voting Rights Act
I don't refuse to concede a duly process
democratic election that I lose
because of a theory about what the
motives of somebody change the location
of a voting place might be I don't do
that do you think that your conception
of of this and you've kind of you know
referenced a bunch of recent
controversies including the
gubernatorial election of Georgia and
you know NFL protests about police
brutality and things like that do you
think you your conception of those as
kind of side issues is that are you more
representative of the black community
than you know the 16:19 project or how
does one gauge that yeah well no I think
my objective answered my assessment is
I'm not more representative I think I
would lose that when if that were going
to be put to a popularity contest
amongst African Americans because I
think that the culture is in the grips
of you know the people who run the route
calm I just throw one thing out Oprah
Winfrey I just throw one thing out
LeBron James I just the one thing I'm no
disrespect intended to these people I'm
sorry if it seems as if I am I'm not I'm
not but I can predict exactly what
they're going to say and and I I think I
mean here let's just make a sharp point
of this the border the border okay now
here's my point I'm not talking about
putting children in cages I'm talking
about appropriating the historical
narrative of African American
petitioning politically for equal
citizenship racism race it race
exclusion allowing the appropriation of
that narrative on behalf of a completely
different project which is letting
people from salvador walk across the
border they may or may not be
appropriately allowed to walk across the
border you can have a view about that
but the idea that that debate
exemplifies and somehow reflects what
Martin Luther King was about or what
African Americans have striven for 450
years is a move that at least deserves
to be debated before it's allowed to set
in stone I'm not now talking about labor
market competition we
to talk about that I'm not talking about
who controls the school district in a
certain place based upon the interests
well I'm not talking about what language
is used in the workplace if I'm in
Southern California whatever I'm talking
about black Americans seeing our quest
within the context of the American
national project do you think the
African American experience of kind of
you know to use a Booker T Washington
phrase coming up from slavery did that
did that provide or does that provide a
model for white Americans or immigrants
who came in you know between the in the
late 19th and early 20th century I I've
always been amazed that you know I don't
know where the immigrant narrative of
the 20th century necessarily came from
is it you know I mean is is the black
experience something that was used by
immigrant Americans do you think who
then also parcel it back in different
ways I've always been kind of impressed
with the way in which italian-american
culture and black culture often are
riffing off of one another and the the
way the godfather the novel in the movie
took you know charges of criminality
against Italian Americans and turned it
into a source of cultural power you
eventually you end up with a Snoop Dog
out and called the dog father and
African American rappers gangster
rappers playing at being mafioso which
then gives rise to a rise of Italian
Americans who act like blacks being
gangsters is the is the I guess the very
nice no you know I I keep giving it away
nobody's like some kind of Norman Mailer
stuff yeah well you know not far from
where he lived so I you know I guess one
of the questions is is the black
experience in America is it one is it
the foundational American experience
where are you arguing that that's we
need to be talking about it in those
terms yes that would make it American
and hence it would change the way that
we talk about America
I like it I like you know you said it I
did it but I I concur I hadn't quite
followed perhaps I had to quite followed
the arrow going in both directions
I was assimilating african-americans
driving to the larger American narrative
but perhaps the large American narrative
is in some way you know grounded in or
it's significantly influenced of course
that kind of thing is the inspiration
for the 16:19 project isn't it so and
and I want to just interject that this
talk about immigrants I mean somebody's
gonna say what about whiteness I mean I
can hear them saying it right now
they're gonna say the difference between
the blacks and the immigrants was stigma
and that the the this is a calmly old
muhammad's book the condemnation of
blackness for example where he examines
the intellectual life in the United
States in the period from 1890 to 1930
or so progressive era but the question
of the african-americans blacks the
black so civil ating to the full
inclusion in society was very much up in
the air and the you know populations
were moving you know blacks were coming
into the into the industrial areas in
the Midwest in the Northeast and there
was crime and there was social
disruption but the immigrants were also
coming and it was also crime and there
was social disruption and ruggedness and
all this kind of stuff and the argument
of Mohammed and others nicely executed
this argument in his book the
condemnation of blackness is that
basically the stigma of racial racism
kept the powers that be the the people
who edited the magazines and it gave the
lectures and wrote the books from seeing
that in a way these were two sides of
the same coin that was going on with
these populations and it's because there
was doubt about whether the Negro was a
syllable in a way that there was not
doubt about whether or not the Irish
Protocol could become white kind of
thing like that so you know I'm not
necessarily standing on that argument
although I think it deserves to be
deserves to be considered well
it's also interesting in that context to
think about historical events I and I'm
thinking of my father's family was Irish
my mother's was Italian in World War two
played a role for that for white ethnics
of recent immigrants that I don't think
it played for blacks or it played it it
had a different role which is that the
Italians and the Irish could become
white after returning from Europe and
Japan and putting their lives on line
blacks came home to a different reality
and it catalyzed the you know the
horrible behavior towards black veterans
helped catalyze the civil rights
movement
now there's in there lots of good books
on this IRA Katznelson oh it's when a
friend of action was white he calls it
it is basically a history social policy
1930 to 1950 which emphasizes the
outsized role of the recovery from the
depression and the engagement in the
global conflict and and in terms of
fostering social mobility you know GI
Bill and all the the New Deal and all
these institutional transformations are
going on that played out in ways that
were not as advantageous to
african-americans because of you know
racial discrimination of segregation and
so on so I you know when I say a kind of
nativist
thing I mean I say it with trepidation
because I know people will will track
this out I know that Nicole Hannah Jones
will already has done in this essay
tried out African Baptist wanting to
serve the country serving fighting and
dying from the Revolutionary War forward
but never right being accorded fully the
the benefits of having done so in terms
of citizenship and inclusion but you you
are doing essentially that they are now
yeah because I think that that's in fact
the case yes so let me to shift to a
slightly different topic but a lot two
things I want to ask if Brown University
where you're a professor wrote a
statement of the president and the you
know the the grand poobahs they're
denounced denouncing racism
and you know if police were you know
calls for police reform and you wrote a
rebuttal to that and you were talking
about the national debate at this
critical moment that what the letter
failed to do was and I'm quoting you to
a firt it failed to affirm the primacy
of Reason over violence in calibrating
our reactions to the suppose a
depression could you you know I work for
a magazine called reason I believe in
reason I also believe in emotion but
could you talk a little bit about the
longer or the bigger picture of how does
reason you know as a kind of
philosophical or an analytical category
how does that work for you and do you
feel like we're in a particular moment
where reason is just being kind of
thrown overboard in favor of emotion not
just on race but on other kind of
analytical categories and policy
decisions going on yes okay I do feel
that we are in this moment where reason
is being overthrown and we're being
swept along by often by hysteria and
this is I mean this would include
somebody like Donald Trump on the one
hand as well as yeah it could in fact
the advent of Trump I think is one of
the things that is you know they call it
derangement syndrome I won't because I'm
not just talking about it
undermining the thinking processes of
his opponents who become obsessed with
him I I think it creates a background
condition for example I might not say
something because Trump said it you know
and and I actually believe it but quite
a person how I feel about Trump I know
they hope you're not about to talk about
Mexicans right now you asked me about
about reason and how in whether and how
and and at this moment you know with the
racial upheaval and just a number things
that one of them is about violence and
about looting and rioting and you know
being clear about that I mean everything
said like if you try to defend your
property that's violence you know so I
mean come on the the foundation of our
civilization which we take for granted
what goes in transit but maintaining
certain tragic distinctions and the
distinction between defending my
property and violently looting and
burning somebody is very elemental it's
an elemental distinction we're going to
state of nature if you lose track with
that you're going to the state of nature
yeah what what do you think gives rise
to you know kind of the subjugation of
Reason to emotion and in a lot of ways I
think you know without going into you
know partisan politics Trump it's you
know Trump didn't cause this he's kind
of the effect of the end of rational
discourse in many ways well you know
what happened to rationality it seemed
like it was kind of popular there for
some time in my lifetime it seems less
popular now lash is a good guide to the
current moment you kind of forgot as a
final topic I mean you are a university
professor and one of the things I was
thinking as the letter what it was that
I really objected to which was the the
kind of group thing here was a letter
declaring a reaction about this moment
and you would have to read it to
appreciate what I'm saying but it was
very political it was it was kind of the
black lives matter friendly take on the
cops and on what was happening uh it it
trafficked in all of the tropes and it
was signed by the President and the
provost and the vice president for
finance and the vice president for
administration and their honoree down to
the Dean of the faculty and I thought
they can't all have exactly the same
reason reaction to these events these
events are controversial and contentions
of their political so to have them in
lockstep sign off on this letter felt
like I was being told these are brown
values this is what brown stands for
we're University
really we are going to tell our students
that there's nothing to argue about here
I mean for example was the killing of
Floyd a racial event
motivated by race can I ask you know so
so this moment of political agitation of
mobilization of conflict is a front in a
culture war that's ongoing in which
Donald Trump is a particularly
participant its regional its class it's
uh it's an ethnic religious it's got a
lot of different dimensions to it all
kinds of changes are going on in the
world so I mean other university having
a pretty line of something like that
that is really unacceptable in my mind I
mean it really debases the currency well
what do we you know we're seeing in our
you are toppling okay that well thank
you well paid do you are you optimistic
about kind of public discourse and or
you know where we go from here because
this year old enough to remember 1968
it's it's kind of fashionable to talk
about the you know the current summer
that we're sorting like 1968 or you know
when when things got really hairy in a
lot of ways are you optimistic about the
near future of the country no foresight
no I'm terribly frightened to be honest
with you as you asked I'm very very
concerned about I think we're gonna
leave it there not a lot to say after
that so I want to thank Glenn Lowry for
talking to reason Glenn thanks so much
