VERONICA ROBERTS: Welcome everyone. I'm Veronica
Roberts curator of Modern and Contemporary
Art at the Blanton Museum at the University
of Texas at Austin and we had some technical
glitches when I introduced our most recent
Curated Conversation series so I'm rerecording
the introduction to Madam CJ Walker: Iconic
Trailblazer and then we're gonna cut to the
live broadcast led by Marilyn Johnson a member
of our national leadership board a former
IBM vice president and someone who helped
bring this remarkable work into the Blanton's
Collection. This portrait by artist Sonya
Clark features the trailblazer Madam C.J.
Walker. She was a pioneer in haircare business
which is why this is made out of black plastic
hair combs and Madam Walker is believed to
be the nation's first self-made female millionaire.
I first learned about her in college and was
stunned that the first self-made female millionaire
in this country was an african-american woman
and even more stunning was that she made her
fortune in spite of pretty unbelievable odds.
Her heyday her business heyday was in the
1910s long before the women's suffrage and
long before the civil rights movement. You
can see that Sonya Clark made her portrait
of Madam Walker using this 1914 photo of the
businesswoman taken by an African-American
photographer named Addison Spurlock. The Addison
Spurlock photo was also used for stamps that
were issued in 1998. Little about Madam Walker's
beginnings would have suggested she'd sit
for a formal portrait like this wind up on
a US postage stamp or end up being the subject
for numerous works of art. She was born Sarah
Breedlove in Delta Louisiana in 1867 which
was shortly after the end of slavery. It was
so soon after the end of slavery in fact that
she was the only one of her many siblings
who was born free but while she was technically
free she was orphaned by the age of seven
and born into very impoverished circumstances.
By the time she was 20 she was widowed and
had a daughter of her own not the traditional
path to fame and fortune but she earned her
fortune and her fame by building a prosperous
beauty empire best known for hair care products.
And what's interesting about her business
is that women actually suffered from hair
loss a lot in the turn of the century. Hygiene
was just very different in those days and
people had scalp issues women had significant
hair loss and Madam Walker was among the women
who suffered from this problem the many women
Black and White who suffered from this problem.
And as a business woman she didn't just create
these beauty products she also employed thousands
of African-American women whom she dubbed
Walker Beauty Agents who would have otherwise
been relegated to really low paying jobs in
less than ideal circumstances hard difficult
back-breaking jobs like the one she had as
a washerwoman. She used her married name Walker
and referred to herself in ads as Madam C.J.
Walker even I think the business name revealed
her natural business instincts and smarts
about how to promote herself. Here you see
her most successful product line the Wonderful
Hair Grower and you also noticed that her
business was headquartered in Indianapolis.
She settled in Indianapolis in part because
it was the crossroads of America at the time
and her product could be shipped by train
easily to the rest of the country. But I think
what I really admire so much about her and
how she's ended up being the subject of a
biography and works of art is not just her
entrepreneurial skills or her financial acumen
it's really her activism and her philanthropy.
She was committed to using her fortune to
help elevate other African Americans. She
was really an activist and she used her national
profile to advocate for social betterment
and also for racial justice. She really stands
out in this photo with Booker T. Washington
and other prominent African Americans all
of whom of course are men but part of her
genius was her marketing savvy. She was a
commanding public speaker with tremendous
charisma she gave these Illustrated lectures
at historic Black colleges churches business
conventions anywhere she could get an audience
she would travel across the country to do
this. And in fact in 1917 after recovering
from exhaustion in Hot Springs Arkansas she
did a tour of Texas and she came to Austin
and then went on to San Marcos Seguin San
Antonio Houston Beaumont etc. And she would
speak sometimes to her employed beauty agents
Walker Beauty Agents and but also to individuals
who were just interested in hearing about
how Black women could have financial independence
that was really her mission to talk about
that. But she was also tireless in her commitment
to helping others and she spoke about that
and she gave money to the first YMCA in Indianapolis
that was created established for Black people
and you're seeing this is actually the dedication
of that YMCA in Indianapolis where she was
one of the leading donors. She also under
wrote scholarships at Tuskegee Institute where
Booker T. Washington was the president and
she gave generously to other Black colleges
she contributed also financially to anti lynching
campaigns and other really important moral
and racial issues of her day. I think she
really equally recognized the power of her
pocketbook and of the podium but she really
had to fight to have a place at the podium
since the progressive African American community
in the 1910s was male-dominated but she you
know didn't become a successful businesswoman
by being timid and doing what was expected
of her. She really implored upon the beauty
agents that she employed that they should
in turn use the economic clout their economic
clout to help other African Americans and
to be advocates and agents for social change.
And with that I'm going to turn it over to
Marilyn Johnson and the live feed of our program.
MARILYN JOHNSON: Also I think we should add
she was not educated formally. She took classes
from time to time she learned to read she
learned to write but she didn't have formal
education. She was smart enough though to
surround herself with very educated people
and she was humble enough to admit her own
insecurities her own shortcomings so she learned
from them. One anecdote that I ran across
when I was really studying this after I read
the book by her great-great granddaughter
A’Lelia Bundles is that she really worked
for a pharmacy and they didn't explain that
in the Netflix movie but she worked for the
Schultz pharmacy company and had trouble with
her own hair and she met the character that
was depicted. It was Annie Monroe they called
her Addie Malone in the film but she knew
she had to improve that product. The smell
of it the smoothness of it and she wanted
a series and she ended up with 23 different
products for beauty for women and not just
women of color. She wanted all women to feel
beautiful. So I want people to understand
that she wasn't educated she was a brilliant
marketing brain and she knew when to bring
in the talent that she needed and that self-made
millionaire the way the movie on Netflix was
entitled Self-Made it was because she was
the first female self-made millionaire in
the United States. I heard other people say
but she was the first Black female millionaire
no. She was the first self-made female because
of her tier marketing like Avon like Mary
Kay like Tupperware back in the day. She knew
that she could empower other women but she
pulled from the strength of all of these men
around her and she was just brilliant and
intrepid is the best word that I can come
up with. That's her driving her car in 1911
I think it was yeah. She traveled extensively
by the way. She traveled to the West Indies
she traveled to Europe finding more clients
more distributors. And at the peak of her
career she was grossing revenue of $1,000
a day with over 2,000 employees that was in
the manufacturing and the bookkeeping and
the business operations. She had 10 times
that in sales agents she called them her army
her agent army and she brought these women
in for education and training just like her
competitor but she really wanted everyone
to feel beautiful on their own. Not to look
like anyone else or not to degrade themselves
personally. She really wanted everyone to
find their own beauty and wear their hairstyle
the way they felt comfortable. That's what
made her so popular and attractive to multicultural
audiences and clients. And I love this picture
because folks this sculpture is ten feet tall
it's 3840 combs. These little black combs
fitted together with the teeth plucked out
to make a silhouette of her profile. So the
way the Blanton Museum has exhibited she has
her own wall. Now I have to help you understand
how this all came about. I retired from IBM
in 2012 here in Austin Texas and I was president
of an organization called the National Council
of Negro Women. Remember that because it was
started by Mary McLeod Bethune. Mary McLeod
Bethune and Madam C.J. Walker were friends
back in the day and we're talking the 19th
century. They were two women one very educated
one very ambitious. When I went through my
docent training because I was recruited by
Ray Williams who is the director of education
for the Blanton. He wanted more diverse gallery
instructors so we are volunteers we interviewed
just like we were interviewing or competing
for a job offer. And Ray took us through a
lot of presentation training as well as art
history training. And in that training one
day we were being taught by the curator of
prints Francesca Consagra. She's passed away
since the time that I met her but god rest
her soul. She was brilliant in her art knowledge
and her technique of teaching and bringing
out and inspiring her class which were all
of the new docents in training. Francesca
was talking about the way art is exhibited
and how prints have to be stored and protected
and they can't have too much light. And I
raised my hand and said you know I'd like
to know how do you get art? Do you have a
budget every year? I came from a corporate
background so I thought they were at liberty
to go shopping or borrowing and lending with
other museums and she said well some of our
collection Marilyn we own and some of it we
trade to put together an exhibit for us that
special artist that we're featuring. And I
said well when will I see somebody that looks
like me on exhibit? And she said to me well
I tell you how this works through fundraisers
donations contributions we acquire art. And
it just hit me my light bulbs went off and
I thanked her for that deviation from her
standard presentation. The next day I returned
to class and I gave Francesca a check for
$5,000. I didn't know if that was a lot or
a little bit. I didn't know what I wanted
to buy or show but I wanted to start a fund
for an iconic aesthetic and historical piece
of art that would tell the story of successful
Black women African-American heritage women.
And from there I decided to get something
so big that anybody that comes to the Blanton
would not miss this exhibit. So I didn't know
if it would take me one year or 20 years to
donate enough money. But I had the thought
since I was president of National Council
of Negro Women there were other presidents
of business leaders the Nesby the National
Society of Black Engineers the Links Town
Lake and the Links chapter called Lone Star.
I knew one of those organization leaders and
I went after other leaders of the Black Chamber
of Commerce in Austin and brought them all
to the Blanton to make a long story short
we previewed the idea hey we'd like to all
go together raise enough money to get a work
of art. And Veronica and I went to lunch and
she pulled out a picture the one that you're
looking at now and explained how it was made
with these combs and I said Veronica you've
made my dream come true we'll get the money.
So all of those organizations we’ll talk
about a little later continued on our journey
and it took us about two and a half years
but I didn't want to go to Robert Smith here
in Austin and say hey you’re rich can you
write us a check? I wanted every organization
that had the means to have the opportunity
to own this concept this homage to a Shero
a real business leader that really goes unsung
in our history books unless you're taking
a particular type of education. And Veronica
I'm gonna toss it back to you now to explain
Sonya Clarke's brilliance because I didn't
know Sonya when you showed me this work of
art. I absolutely love her now. This chart
by the way I wanted to highlight all of those
organizations. So Stacy if you'll just leave
it up there because there's some people on
this zoom conference that will see their names.
HEB for all of you that shop at HEB not only
did they help with the fundraising they sponsored
the reception when we did the unveiling. Their
community relations executive actually showed
up at the Blanton. Some board members Jeanne
and Michael Klein that are very generous to
the Blanton found out how I was doing this
and gave money. But then you see others. The
two Links chapters I think they were in coopetition
there. The National Black NBA headed up at
that time by a friend of mine Gregory who
really gave personally like Tam but also the
organization's gave from their community kitty
or funds that they collected. So it was really
a team effort to get this work in and like
I said it was a dream come true because it
was a perfect fit bringing Madame C.J. to
Austin Texas and a part of the Blanton family
and we also adopted Sonya Clark the artist
herself.
ROBERTS: Yeah and as background I proposed
this work to Marilyn and because of the monumental
scale and you can see this wonderful quote
about how Sonya Clark constructed it. It's
made out of 3840 pocket combs and I love what
she says about not just capturing the National
legacy of hair culture and gender and race
politics of hair but the way that is disposable
objects they parallel the low social status
of African-American women born in the late
1800s but when they're combined by thousands
they become a monumental tapestry signifying
her magnitude and success Walker's magnitude
and success despite her humble beginnings.
And I think that's such a beautiful description
and you can see Sonya putting the work together
here and how she made it was to create a grid
using hair combs and she removes the teeth
of the combs to create either the lightness
on the face or a darker part of the hair she’ll
leave the tooth the teeth of the combs in.
It's different from any of her other works
it is a little bit unique in using combs in
this way and this scale but the the place
that I saw this work was at the Museum of
Art and Design in New York and I was just
so blown away by how brilliantly it was constructed
and how there was so much meaning in the materials.
So that's how I became familiar with the work.
And I'll just add Marilyn mentioned that she
is a Shero and that she deserves better known
I think her reputation is much more significant
now especially with the Netflix series but
I think that that one of the things I was
struck by is the the way that that I felt
like every African-American person I know
is aware of who Madam C.J. Walker is but I
felt that she was not as well known outside
of the African-American community and I was
really struck by who do we learn about in
our history books and who do we not learn
about in our encyclopedias and our history
books.
JOHNSON: Well let's stop here. I want to introduce
Toya Bell. Toya is a member of the Town Lakes
Links and she just happened to get the memo
to wear gray that day. So this turned out
to be a perfect photo. She's a soror an A.K.A.
a soror of mine but at the time this picture
was taken she was actually chair of leadership
Austin. So when Sonya came to actually talk
about the work of art in front of an audience
at the Museum we invited every member of every
organization that did or did not give but
we had a full house and this picture just
reminds me of how we felt that day at the
unveiling it was like floating on air. So
Toya thank you for your leadership.
ROBERTS: And Thank You Marilyn for yours because
I joke at the museum that it's the longest
label in the entire museum because there are
so many people on the credit line.
JOHNSON: But we use it. I've got so many stories
about teaching this work of art to students
especially students of another genetic predisposition
because they don't readily know they may now
with the netflix film but we actually unveiled
this in 2017 and this is a more mature group
of students but when I would have the first
second third graders who are just not afraid
to guess and embarrass. I say who do you think
this is? Some of them would say that's you
that's your mother. They could recognize that
she was african-american but I'll never forget
the day one little second grader said I know
that's Princess Leia look at her hair. The
hairstyle was what I wanted them to focus
on because I had not told them what the work
was made of but when they realized they could
see it was hair combs I said what do you think
her profession was? Why do you think she's
up here on the wall? And I would show them
a photo of the postage stamp and pass it out
and the night of the unveiling we actually
had printed combs with madam C.J. Walker's
name on the hair combs that we gave out as
souvenirs and thank yous. So I would show
them the comb and pass it around and then
tell her story. Now why this is important
is I can remember the glistening and the smiling
and the giggling in the eyes of the Black
students that knew who she was or they knew
why those combs were so important. They felt
proud they related to the work of art which
is what any docent any gallery instructor
really wants to see an art enthusiast a dilettante
like myself appreciating the value the expression
the meaning. And I just it warms my heart
when I walk through the museum now and I just
listened to comments commentary by other people
who are just casually observing and they get
closer and closer and closer or they stand
to the side because when you look from the
side you actually see the shadow in reverse
image of her face. There you are perfect timing.
You can look through the side and see the
reflection and that's Shioban one of our gallery
instructors in the jean jacket.
ROBERTS: And I love that you're pointing this
out Marilyn. One of the things that I love
about the experience of this work is the way
it changes depending on how close or far you
are from the piece. From a distance you can
see her in this formidable portrait but as
you get really close it becomes a grid and
it becomes abstract. Almost like a mosaic
and you see the pieces. And I think it just
reminds us to take different I love the way
Ray Williams talks about this our director
of education he talks about understanding
things from different perspectives and the
way that that happens with this work that
you have a very different perspective up close
and you even mentioned the combs the brand
happens to be Unbreakable. It's the brand
that she chose. It's just the kind it wasn't
intentional she didn't have it imprinted on
the plastic but it just happens to if you
get really close you can see the brand and
it I just love that detail. This idea of sort
of an unbreakable spirit.
JOHNSON: And Madam C.J. Walker was truly unbreakable.
Remember she started with two dollars and
a dream and it was because she was orphaned
at seven years old she was married at 14 a
mother at 17 and she married at 14 because
her older sister in Mississippi was given
the responsibility to raise her and she really
was not comfortable with her brother-in-law
being much younger. So she married she had
one child and she literally moved to St. Louis
to get work. When she found out that the World's
Fair was going to be in St. Louis being the
entrepreneur that she is or was at that time
she decided now's the time to get Schultz
to analyze Annie's product and let me improve
it and I'll have the biggest audience. Now
remember in 1912 there were only 10 million
Blacks in the United States. She ended up
relocating to Indianapolis. Moving her headquarters
there and they only work professionally for
Black women in Indianapolis working for either
one of the two Black newspapers or Madam C.J.
Walker. That was it and a lot of people that
were her customers became her agent army and
she spread it throughout the globe.
ROBERTS: And we have a question Marilyn. I'll
just jump in with one of the questions which
is and thank you by the way for sharing so
many of you are sharing your recollections
of the talk and the reception and one of my
favorite evenings and days at the Blanton.
One of the questions is about how long it
took for Sonya Clark to create the work and
we get asked that a lot. She doesn't remember
the exact number of days but it was a long
time nearly a year. Very important you know
work for her and what she did is she used
that Addison Scurlock photograph and she gridded
it and assigned numbers to ever work the grid
and then together with her studio assistants
who at the time were in Richmond Virginia
and they wove it together kind of like a tapestry
and Sonya really considers herself somebody
who works in in fiber and in textile but there's
a way in which I think Marilyn you may have
mentioned this before it does feel like a
tapestry or a textile even it's made out of
plastic. People don't even recognize what
material is from a distance they think it's
a textile or it has that look like a tapestry.
JOHNSON: And so the next slide shows you another
tapestry at the Blanton by an African or Ghanaian
artist El Anatsui and I remember when the
Blanton brought this in. I read the article
in the Austin Statesman newspaper because
to me this looks like Kente cloth. It looked
like fabric but it's not. It's literally bottle
caps from whiskey bottles. Which is how a
lot of the workers in western Africa and especially
Ghana were paid. So El Anatsui II had his
students collect just picking up all these
caps. Now imagine getting paid in alcohol
what that does to the family's overall wealth
needing food and shelter and clothing. But
these men by the time they got home they would
have tossed the bottle cap consumed the liquor.
So this is too a social statement using throwaway
materials. The reason it looks colored at
the border like Kente cloth would is that's
the reverse side of the bottle cap. They pounded
them flat used copper wiring to connect them
together. So I wanted to show this slide.
It's much the same collaboration using what
would be unusual products to come up to tell
a story and to have something aesthetically
outstanding. And the Blanton owns this piece
just like it owns Madam C.J. Walker's sculpture.
So it's here to stay.
ROBERTS: Speaking of which if you don't mind
[Inaudible] this last [Inaudible] We put Madam
C.J. Walker on view as part of our reinstallation
of our collection in 2017 I think it was.
It was an iconic became very quickly one of
the most used works requested works for teaching.
I also wanted to share this wonderful image.
I recently went to the National Museum of
African-American History and Culture in Washington
DC and I loved seeing that Madam C.J. Walker
has an entire display there with some of her
early haircare products and you can see that
wonderful Addison Scurlock photo in the upper
left that inspired Sonya Clarke's work. And
if you keep going to the next image Stacy.
I also wanted to mention that when we put
the portrait of Madam C.J. Walker up it has
been on view ever since because it is so beloved
and became really an it's really become I
think one of the icons of our collection up
there with the El Anatsui the you know Ellsworth
Kelly building and a maybe the Jerry Bywaters’
Oil Fields Girls it's one of the [Inaudible]
collection. We will have to [Inaudible] though
for the best of reasons. In 2021 Sonya is
going to have a mid-career survey of her work
in her hometown of Washington DC at the National
Museum of Women in Arts. And so I wanted to
mention that I know that 2021 is a ways away
if any of you end up being in DC I think that
would be an amazing opportunity to see the
full arc of her career. And here's just an
image of the website where you can also see
there's some more information if anyone wants
to read up and see more. But we are happy
Marilyn and I are happy to take questions.
And I just want to thank you Marilyn for just
your tireless advocacy and also bringing so
many people to the museum. I don't know if
you mentioned that you also that'll A’Lelia
Bundles the great great granddaughter of Madam
Walker has seen this work which is really
an honor.
JOHNSON: And she's the author of the book
On Her Own Ground and this is a signed copy
because A’Lelia like myself we do public
speaking and we were on tour actually at the
NAACP conference the Women's Day and she and
I were both speaking and she had her book
there and I said you gotta sign one for me.
I ran into her in DC much later and told her
we were working on getting this piece here
and she said when you unveil it let me know
I'll come and as a woman of her own word she
definitely did. And the Links did host her.
She's an amazing amazing journalist so to
write her great-great grandmother's story
the way she did and then have the movie rights
have it produced and shown on Netflix she's
really made a statement of history. There
have been other books and publications about
Madam C.J. but this one is written from a
family perspective and she shares a lot. I'll
tell you one story. Madam C.J. died rich.
She left a third of her money to her daughter
gave 2/3 away to charity and I did the math.
She left $5,000 to the YMCA that she helped
build in indianapolis. She left $5,000 to
Mary McLeod Bethune’s College Bethune-Cookman
college. She left $5,000 to the Anti Lynching
League to stop lynching in these United States
because remember she was born when Johnson
Andrew Johnson was president. Then Grant was
the first president that Madam C.J. was aware
of and after Grant was Hayes. I mean these
guys weren't exactly fighting for the rights
of black women so she came through some really
tough times but she was an activist politically
and socially and an entrepreneur and someone
who empowered other women to not work for
a dollar 50 a day during laundry but to generate
revenues of $1,000 a day for her business
and paid them well. Invited them into her
home which is still an iconicistic estate
in Irvington and I've got to say this. In
the movie on Netflix they showed her running
into one of her neighbors I think it was one
of the it wasn't Vanderbilt so it must have
been a Roosevelt and Madam C.J. built her
house with 35 rooms Vanderbilt's house had
50 rooms and Rockefeller I'm sorry was Rockefeller
his house had 45 rooms but she positioned
her house in Irvington New York so that you
could see it. They secluded their's behind
shrubbery and walls but she was proud of that
and she wanted when she had her agents on
the property she wanted the town to know she
was in town and so was her army.
ROBERTS: That's wonderful and Marilyn we have
a question from Gay Gaddis who I think and
there's a lot of wonderful praise for you
in this lovely thread but the question for
you was she wanted to thank you for your wonderful
work and your persistence but also ask you
if Madam Walker's daughter actually carried
on the business because she writes it seems
Madam Walker died fairly young and you're
right Gay she died at the age of 51 very young.
Do you want to take that one Marilyn?
JOHNSON: Oh yes the business was carried on
not by the daughter though and it stayed in
business. Gay thank you for that. Gay is someone
that I admire she was owner of T3 one of the
largest marketing firms in the country. Headquartered
out of Austin Texas but a woman owned business
and Gay that business the Madam C.J. started
was the C.J. Walker Beauty was around until
1981 before they actually closed the doors
and sold the rights but if you go to any Sephora
store these days you'll see a product line
that uses her name they have the branding
rights. So the daughter didn't run the business
but the legacy lived on through the 1980s
and still through today we recognize the product
by the brand. Thank you for the question.
Hi Tina Wing I see you.
TINA WING: Hi there.
ROBERTS: And Lorraine Lasdon just added your
comment about Sephora that the brand is now
owned by Sundial now. I love that so many
people here have been following Madam Walker
and her history so closely.
JOHNSON: Well maybe we'll get history to become
her story one day where we learn more about
women that contributed more than Betsy Ross
you know sewing the flag and Florence Nightingale
being you know the nurse. There are so many
intrepid women that some of you are on this
phone call because I know you who have led
and continue to lead in social advocacy politics
leaders in religion. I mean when I think about
all my Sunday School teachers were women.
So we've got to start telling our story better
and maybe we need to start funding our story
better and that's why I was so thrilled that
Simone Wicha who is the director of the Blanton
accepted my little $5,000 check and actually
extended an opportunity for me to join the
leadership board at the Blanton in I think
it was 2014 when I joined the board and I'm
still a part of the board so I still have
a little bit of influence in suggesting and
recommending and reaching out how we should
present when we should reopen the museum safely
for all of our visitors to appreciate and
value the hard work. It's a great staff you're
really talented I've learned a lot from you
Veronica because you're so smart about art
and art history but I just never knew when
I interviewed with Ray Williams that I would
end up in a position of celebrating a Shero
of mine forever because Madam .CJ. sculpture
is here in Austin to stay.
ROBERTS: That's right and we also have a question
about from Heidi about whether Madam Walker
tried to hire predominantly women or Black
women and my understanding is that she hired
Black women and that that was really integral
and although there were White women who bought
her products I do know that.
JOHNSON: Well and she had a full-service salon.
She had White customers who happened to have
the kind of hair that she knew how to manage.
They did nails they did facials and there
just weren't places like this for women of
color or women of meager means. So she was
open to elevating beauty for all women. My
pooch is trying to get in the shot here he's
whining so if you hear Jinx in the background
I apologize. He's a ham.
ROBERTS: We have another question about from
Catherine Cody Thank You Catherine about has
C.J. Walker been memorialized in other works
of art and that's a great question outside
of the beautiful stamps. Catherine there is
another work another portrait made out of
combs that is in Indianapolis also by Sonya
Clark and I was actually involved in the commission
of that. Indianapolis really reveres Madam
C.J. Walker. There's no one in Indianapolis
that you will meet really who doesn't know
who she is because her business was headquartered
there for many years. And that was a really
smart business decision on her part because
Indianapolis was really considered the crossroads
of America at the time. And all the trains
went through there so she could get her products
in and out very quickly. And if any of you
go to Indianapolis I encourage you to go to
the Walker theater. There's an amazing theater
because she couldn't see movies she just basically
created her own cultural art space in the
town and it's named for her it's the Walker
theater and it was used as I think a jazz
club for a long time and now it's more of
a museum and Center and it's it's a really
special spot. So you'll see signs of her of
Madam Walker all throughout the city but I'm
not aware of other works of art. I'll look
into that but I think Sonya has been really
to Marilyn's point you know her story has
been under the radar for far too long and
I think it took a female artist like Sonya
Clark to really elevate her and remind us
of her significance.
JOHNSON: And we should also say Sonya Clark
is world-renowned. She has work in China Australia
Italy France. She is well known but until
she did this piece I say especially for me
although it wasn't commissioned it really
spoke to me. I started appreciating her other
work. Veronica could you describe how she
played the violin with hair from someone's
dreadlock that donated it to her?
ROBERTS: Yeah and I remember that her husband
is a really wonderful accomplished musician
so I think that there's a lot that's a pretty
talented household Sonya and her husband and
your point about the hair we did get another
question about her other paintings that use
actual hair. Sonya's used hair and quite a
number of works. You saw the Afro Abe dollar
bill and she talks about just being very interested
in the politics of hair in the history and
culture of hair. When she was growing up in
Washington DC this is kind of an amazing story.
She lived across the street from the ambassador
of Benin and she would go over to their house
and get her hair braided in these traditional
Benin hairstyles. So the comb was something
she grew up with. It was also something her
grandmother had an interest in textiles and
background in sewing so she thinks of hair
as a kind of thread. And you can really understand
that this notion of textile of thread being
connected to hair you can weave with it the
same I mean we talk about a hairstyle as a
weave right? So these are languages that she's
brought together. She's also used she's also
done a piece recently on unraveling the Confederate
flag. That's been one of the most where it's
a performative participatory work where audience
members or anyone in a gallery or museum unravels
the threads of the Confederate flag in an
intimate conversation with her in a gallery
together which I think is quite a powerful
piece.
JOHNSON: And she brought a video and played
it for us of this bow to a violin. Instead
of horsehair it was human hair from the head
of a man of color and she actually wanted
to see if the sound would be unique or distinctive.
But what our audience recognized was the tune
they were playing was the Negro National Anthem
on that violin. It was just a heartfelt moment
that I'll never forget. Sonya is awesome.
So definitely if you're going to be in DC
next year you want to see the pride of Sonya
Clark from the Austin perspective Madam C.J.
will be on loan for that exhibit.
ROBERTS: That's right and we have another
question from Sharon about where Madam Walker
is buried and I'm so glad you asked this because
I would like to visit her cemetery as well
and I think you saw the photograph of her
and the really beautiful elegant car. I believe
that was in Harlem but she was buried in Woodlawn
Cemetery which is in New York.
JOHNSON: In the Bronx.
ROBERTS: In the Bronx yeah. So Woodlawn Cemetery.
I'll put that in the QA for anyone else who
might want to visit. And Marilyn do you want
to talk about the mansion that she created
towards the end of her life?
JOHNSON: Oh my gosh you've got a Google Lewaro.
It looks like an Italian villa. I actually
googled it just to get some more detail. It's
on three acres of property in Irvington and
I actually lived in Tarrytown New York when
I worked in IBM headquarters for a few years
and it was being sold at that time and actually
it now is managed and run by the National
Trust for Historic Treasures. It's been totally
restored all 35 rooms. It's an amazing property
just beautiful and like I said you can see
it from Broadway the actual main thoroughfare.
Lewaro. They started building it in 1916.
It took two years to complete. It's been totally
restored to more original paint and colors
and it's just elegant. All you have to do
is Google Madam C.J. Walker estate or L E
W A R O Lewaro estate in Irvington New York
and they'll walk you through a total tour
of the property. And I don't know its value
now but when she built it it was like a phenomenal
amount of money like quarter of a million
dollars for her to complete this. But just
to give you a translation. The $5,000 that
she left to those organizations that I listed
among the two-thirds that she left to charities
I did the math it's ninety six thousand dollars
in today's money. So can you imagine leaving
several organizations a hundred thousand dollars
just to improve them because you're no longer
going to be alive to donate? That's why I'm
so humbled that all of these organizations
black professionals board members HEB everyone
jumped on board and contributed to that big
label beside this beautiful sculpture because
we're all a part of correcting restoring and
uplifting the history of a legacy of a wonderful
African-American leader.
ROBERTS: Beautifully said Marilyn and we have
your mentioning of the mansion that she created
and lived in prompted a really interesting
comment by Professor Tara Dudley who's a professor
at the Austin School of Architecture here
at UT and she's published about the homes
of Madam Walker and her daughter A’Lelia.
So I'm thrilled to hear that Tara I hope you'll
send us the essay we'd love to read that [Inaudible]
haven't already read it and she's asking if
there will be additional programming about
Madam Walker in conjunction with this work.
So we'll happily consider that because this
is one of the works that just keeps on giving
and that we I mean the talk that Sonya gave
was truly amazing. We'd love to have her back
and think about other programs that we can
put on. There also was a question for you
Marilyn which I appreciate which is have you
helped to collect any more art? Or is there
any other art you are interested in? And I
happen to see some work behind your head above
your couch. So maybe you can share. There's
lots of art I know you're interested in so
Marilyn will you share?
JOHNSON: Yes Veronica's talking about my Chihulys
back there on the wall. That's Dale Chihuly
who does glass art. Many of you may know his
work because you've been to Las Vegas in the
Bellagio and you've looked up at the ceiling.
That's Dale Chihuly. Now for those of you
that don't know me as well I grew up in West
Virginia where iconisticly the talent and
art expression was a little city called Blenko.
Blenko glass was how we decorated our homes
different colors and when I found out about
Dale Chihuly who is in Seattle Washington
where my kids live I was able to actually
tour his site his studio. His studio is his
home and I was with a group of women. It was
a speaking engagement for the International
Women's Forum. I know that some of you are
familiar with that leadership organization.
We went to his studio to just take a tour
and he walked in the room. I couldn't believe
it because in my mind I'm thinking how can
I afford just one artifact from Dale Chihuly's
collection. As I had experienced his work
in Las Vegas in Kew Gardens in England and
other places that I've traveled. He's in Indiana
but you'll see his work as glass blown art.
These prints I actually bought on that trip
because I couldn't afford an actual blown
glass piece of work from his original collection
but I do like Dale Chihuly. He wears the eye
patch for those of you that don't know him
he's still alive he's great. But I like William
Tolliver's work because he speaks to cultural
events in Black or African-American heritage
lives. I own a piece of his work called the
Baptism it's actually beautiful and my brother
is a minister he has his own church in Georgia
so I have my brother's name written on the
back of that painting so that when I expire
my family will know this goes to Roy Johnson
because I admire his leadership his courage
and his work. So most of the art that I own
there's a sentimental reason or value and
one day somehow I may be able to get a Sonya
Clarke piece for my house. Thank you for the
question.
ROBERTS: Yes and I want to come over and see
that. We've also had a wonderful question
about if we were to try to imagine what Madam
C.J. Walker would think of the Black Lives
Matter movement. What would she think of that?
JOHNSON: She'd be writing checks. She would
donate her army. She would have those ladies
out in every city making a statement. Like
I said the word I used is intrepid. When you
talked about the combs the name of the company
that printed the 3840 combs that Sonya used.
I mean there's no coincidence I think the
universe has a way of expressing itself that
the comb company would be called Unbreakable.
Madam C.J. was unbreakable and she would be
so proud of these young people because imagine
now she was 19 years old when she moved to
St. Louis with a baby. She did remarry Mr.
Walker and took his name and oh by the way
I don't know for a fact but the reason she
was called Madam C.J. I can remember hearing
younger than me girls in my neighborhood who
were White calling my grandmother Roberta
and I was like there's no way that's you know
so disrespectful but Black women in the community
were called by their first name. Madam C.J.
didn't want anybody to know her first name.
So she became Madam Walker her husband said
let them call you Madam you're now my wife.
She assumed a role in a position far beyond
her dream and the $2.
ROBERTS: That's right and that's beautiful
and I just want to add that when she employed
nearly or roughly a thousand African-American
women and she really used her role as a you
know businesswoman to encourage those women
to also improve their communities. I mean
she as Marilyn has said she was intrepid but
she really was an activist and she thought
that this was in order to improve the lives
of Black men and women people had to speak
up and they also had to earn a living wage.
So I think that was she used that platform
really beautifully and she was really she
was very charismatic I think that was also
you know she really she spoke powerfully.
She was comfortable at a podium. I wish we
had recordings of her Marilyn.
JOHNSON: I know that would be outstanding.
I'll ask A’Lelia if they have her voice
somewhere in the family archives. Yeah.
ROBERTS: Yeah we have one other question for
Margette about how was she accepted as a woman
in the African-American male business community?
And I well I'm happy to take that in if you
want to elaborate Marilyn. I think it was
reluctantly at first honestly I think that
there was so you know there was so much sexism
and there was sexism in the Black community
the White community and every community that's
just the way it was. So I think the money
speaks and she was powerful and successful
and I think that eventually that people paid
attention to what she was doing because she
was so successful.
JOHNSON: You said it right. I was gonna say
money talks and we know what won. So Madam
C.J. earned her right. She was not taken seriously
at first because of the beauty industry not
being taken seriously but again there were
ten million Blacks in the United States when
she started her business probably fifty two
or four percent of them were female who did
appreciate someone recognizing them for their
beauty. So the men they got on board real
fast especially politicians who like those
donations but imagine she was putting her
money where her mouth was. She left a hundred
thousand dollars to that Anti-Lynching. Now
they lynched women too but I mean I remember
stories of being worried about a Black man
coming home he's late where is he what's going
on and it does even today cross your mind.
I worry about my son. I worry about my nephews
because they are targeted. They always have
been. The world is getting better. The world
is getting better.
ROBERTS: I think that's the perfect note to
end on. Thank you so much for Marylin for
leading the charge. Not only in the acquisition
but also this evening and thank you everyone
else especially the many people on this call
who helped make this possible. That long label
is only possible thanks to all of you. I also
just wanted to say a few final words about
our next few programs. Our next Curated Conversation
is going to be on Tuesday June 23rd at 5:00
PM and the topic is In the Company of Cats
and Dogs a curator Q&A with [Inaudible]. That
will feature a live Q&A with curatorial assistant
Christian Wurst and Blanton fellow of European
art Chrissy Zappella exploring some works
featuring fuzzy friends from the museum's
collection and special guests from Austin
Pets Alive. And then to watch past Curated
Conversations or if you want to watch this
one take virtual art tours and explore other
museum from home content just go to our website
it's Blanton Museum dot org backslash Museum
from home and that's where this program will
ultimately be housed. And if you'd like to
show your support you can become a member
at Blanton Museum dot org backslash membership
and you can also support our Blanton Together
Fund which is under support on the website.
And if you want info about upcoming programs
and other news sign up for a newsletter that's
on our website under subscribe and finally
if you have any topics you'd love to see us
cover in future Curated Conversations drop
us a line at media at Blanton Museum dot org.
Thank you again and we hope to see you next
Tuesday. Thank you again Marilyn for being
here.
JOHNSON: Can I give a plug for Carlotta who
is the marketing director? We see your picture.
You're outstanding and I'm on the marketing
committee so we focus on development. Thank
you for this opportunity to showcase a wonderful
work of art by a very talented artist who
are my sisters and thank you we have over
100 people on this on this Zoom conference
so it just goes to show what you can do when
you're determined.
