JARED BALL: Welcome, everyone, back to the
Real News Network. I'm Jared Ball here in
Baltimore.
On Monday in Paris, Israeli Prime Minister
Benjamin Netanyahu held an impromptu meeting
with U.S. President Barack Obama and Secretary
of State John Kerry on the sidelines of the
UN climate negotiations. Netanyahu was also
seen shaking hands with Palestinian President
Mahmoud Abbas, the first time the two leaders
met face-to-face since 2010. Netanyahu told
Israeli reporters the next day that he does
not wish for the collapse of the Palestinian
authority, but urges a change in the behavior
of its leadership.
Joining us from Germany is Shir Hever, an
economic researcher in the Alternative Information
Center, a Palestinian-Israeli organization
active in Jerusalem and Beit Sahour. Shir,
welcome back to the Real News.
SHIR HEVER: Thanks for having me, Jared.
BALL: So tell us what you make of this. Netanyahu
says he does not want the collapse of the
Palestinian Authority, but what effect are
his policies having towards that organization?
HEVER: Yeah. This was a statement he did for
Obama's sake. He wants the United States to
believe that Israel is trying to support and
sustain the Palestinian Authority, the Palestinian
government. But in fact, the Palestinian government
is now in a state of crisis, and their fragility
is probably more than it ever has been before.
The Israeli military forces are active in
the West Bank and attacking Palestinian targets,
and the complete inability of the Palestinian
government to protect its own people reduces
its popularity and its legitimacy.
Just today there was an article by Amira Hass,
from the Haaretz newspaper, where she talks
about symbols of Palestinian Authority itself
being attacked by the Israeli army. And one
example is a radio station that dared tell
people as a sort of public service where the
Israeli soldiers are active so that they can
protect themselves, or avoid these areas.
The next day the Israeli military attacked
that radio station and closed it down. And
that kind of takes away the mask, as if the
Palestinian government has some kind of sovereignty,
as if it is somehow on the way to becoming
an independent state, which a lot of people
believed after they got semi-official status
at the UN.
Now the Israeli army is actually very worried
that the Palestinian Authority may collapse.
And you see many senior officers putting pressure
on the government to do something actually
to support the Palestinian government, because
the Palestinian government is doing a very
important service for the Israeli army. They're
repressing Palestinians, preventing demonstrations
on behalf of the Israeli government, and prevent--and
freeing the hands of the Israeli army to do
other things. Just today the Israeli forces
entered the refugee camp of Shuafat, where
the Palestinian government is not active,
in order to demolish a single house. They
brought in 1,200 heavily armed soldiers, 1,200
soldiers to invade this refugee camp, in order
to demolish a house.
Now, the house demolition is collective punishment.
It's a collective punishment, it's in violation
of international law. But beside the point,
the amount of effort the Israeli army has
to invest, they spent more money on this invasion
than the value of the house. So that's something
that the Israeli army would rather not do.
And actually, Netanyahu is sort of warning
that they might need to start doing that sort
of thing again, also in areas where the Palestinian
Authority is active, and if the Palestinian
Authority is going to collapse.
BALL: So as we were talking a little bit off-air,
what are the feelings towards the Palestinian
Authority of those among the most so-called
progressive or radical Palestinians?
And then on the other side, what is it exactly
that Netanyahu would like to see the Palestinian
Authority perform as a role within Palestine?
What is it that both those two sides of this
discussion really want to see from the Palestinian
Authority?
HEVER: Well you see, within the Palestinian
government there's more than one voice. Mahmoud
Abbas, the president, has a very clear agenda.
He wants a diplomatic path towards sovereignty,
towards Palestinian independence. This path
seems to be a very difficult path to travel.
And Mahmoud Abbas is quite close to retirement,
he's not a young man anymore. And it seems
very unlikely that he will see it through.
The other people in the government have other
opinions. Many of them say, well, actually,
it's absolutely clear that the Palestinian
government is serving the purposes of the
Israeli government, of the occupation. So
if we want to be free we should just dissolve
it. And that sentiment is echoed among a lot
of Palestinians on the ground in many of the
cities, and people who can remember how the
situation was before 1994 when the Palestinian
government was established, and who say, well,
actually, things were better back then under
direct Israeli rule. And that's something
that, of course, is very hotly debated.
But if you also look at how the Palestinian
parties, all of the Palestinian parties, even
the very conservative ones like Hamas, are
very ambivalent towards the recent clashes
where lone Palestinians, and many of them
minors, underage, are trying to attack Israelis
in a sort of act of desperation, an act that
shows their complete lack of hope for the
direction of Palestinian government, they
just tried to express their desperation with
violence. And of course, the Israeli military
forces, they are meting out hundred-fold more
violence against Palestinians. But even though
this is the case, most Palestinian parties,
or actually all of them, are very ambivalent
and they're very reluctant to openly support
these attacks. The Hamas party made some statements
where they sort of encourage these people
to attack. But in practice, they're actually
not doing anything. They would actually rather
see the violence dwindle down.
Now, your second question was about--.
BALL: Well, I was just asking what the progressive
Palestinian community feels about the Palestinian
Authority, and then what role they would like
to see it play within their community. And
then similarly, what then, or opposingly,
what does Netanyahu want to see the Palestinian
Authority play--though I think you made the
point earlier that the hope there is that
for him, at least, that they would play the
role of police force that Israel itself would
not have to play.
HEVER: Yeah. But the Authority has been playing
that role of the police force, and that was
actually the plan of the first Israeli prime
minister to allow the Palestinian Authority
to be established, Yitzhak Rabin. He said,
we want somebody to create order on the ground
without the need of the high court and without
human rights organizations. That was his vision
for the Palestinian Authority, somebody to
control that area on Israel's behalf.
Of course, the Palestinians have other ideas.
That's not why they established this organization.
They want to become free of Israeli occupation.
After 23 years of negotiations and establishing
this institution I don't think they're closer
to freedom, or at least most of them don't
feel closer to freedom. So that creates doubts
about this institution.
From the point of view of Israel, however,
there is a problem. Because when you have
these attacks coming from individuals, and
when you have this very high level of violence
and very low level of a sense of security
on the street, then the Israeli government
needs to find some kind of scapegoat. And
Netanyahu has from the beginning selected
the Palestinian government itself to be his
scapegoat. And even as Palestinian police
were helping to disperse demonstrations against
occupation, so they were actually working
for the Israeli police, Netanyahu was blaming
the Palestinian Authority and Mahmoud Abbas
for incitement to violence against Israel.
And that's something that shows that he's
now maybe looking at a different direction.
He needs that scapegoat so badly that he's
willing to allow this whole system that allowed
occupation to continue to collapse. And I'm
not completely sure if the occupation can
continue without that system. And I think
that's what worries the Israeli soldiers so
much.
And Netanyahu made another statement which
is very interesting. He said that he's going
to punish the European Union for calling to
label products from the illegal colonies in
the West Bank by not allowing them to be part
of the peace negotiations anymore. He's going
to cut them out of the loop. But in my many
conversations with European politicians about
what is the role within these negotiations,
usually they describe the situation that the
Israeli government calls them to increase
their support for the Palestinian Authority
because the Israeli government is worried
if there's not going to be enough international
aid, and especially European aid, to support
the population in the West Bank and in the
Gaza Strip. Then the Palestinian Authority
will collapse, Israel will have no choice
but to reestablish its own institutions of
military government, and that's something
that they don't want to do, because it costs
a lot of money.
So Netanyahu's statement that he's going to
cut out the European out of the loop, the
European Union out of the loop, is something
that actually threatens to have an effect
exactly like he describes. What would happen
if the European Union would say, well, if
we don't have a role in the peace negotiations
anymore, then all right. We won't have a role.
And that would actually put the responsibility
back on the shoulders of the Israeli government
under international law to care for the population
under its control.
BALL: All right. Well, Shir Hever, thanks
again for joining us here at the Real News
Network.
HEVER: Thanks for having me, Jared.
BALL: And thank you all for joining us here
at the Real News. And for all involved, again,
I'm Jared Ball in Baltimore saying, as Fred
Hampton used to say, to you we say peace,
if you're willing to fight for it. So peace,
everybody, and we'll catch you in the whirlwind.
