My name is Merrill Dubrow, president and CEO
of M/A/R/C Research and the chair elect of
the marketing research program at Michigan
State.
Really excited to be a part of Spartan Insights.
Spartan Insights is a series of podcasts that
I’ll be hosting and interviewing one of
the 350 alumni and 40 board members from the
Michigan State marketing research program.
Today’s guest on Spartan Insights is Ryan
Barry: my good friend, fellow Bostonian, and
Chief Revenue Officer at Zappi.
Ryan, thanks so much for being on Spartan
Insights.
Merrill it is my pleasure, my friend, to be
here.
Well, I’ll tell you what, this is uncensored,
unfiltered, and taped.
I think we could be in a little bit of trouble,
alright?
Yeah, if people are listening, we’re going
to take them on a little ride, I’m sure.
It’s gonna be fun.
Oh, no, you’re right about that.
It’s gonna be fun.
It’s gonna be a little bit of a ride.
Listen, we’re gonna word association, you
ready?
I’m gonna throw out a word and you throw
out the first couple words that come to your
mind.
How’s that Ryan?
Sounds good.
Alright, Boston Red Sox.
Likely gonna be bad for a couple years.
Clients.
I prefer customers.
What’s the word I’m actually thinking
about?
They’re going through a tumultuous time.
Okay.
Innovation.
Buzzword.
Means a lot of things to a lot of people.
Zappi.
Zappi – trying to keep up with the market
and improve every day.
Insights.
So important, in a world where consumers are
in control.
Alright, AI.
A word everybody uses, but not many understand.
Good.
Storytelling.
So critical, whether you’re a technologist,
a research consultant at a vendor, or on the
client side.
It’s a skill that not enough people have.
Okay, and the New England Patriots – we’ll
end with that one.
[laughs] The soon to be two-time defending
champions in a row.
Wow, back-to-back, so that’s the prediction.
They are right now, for anybody listening,
they are eight and one, so you’ll know about
when we tape this.
I say they go thirteen and three.
What do you say?
You know it’s funny, that is what I think
too, and I had them losing to Baltimore at
the beginning of the season.
Thirteen and three, they’re in the AFAC
championship game, I’m still betting on
Brady when it matters.
Yeah, oh well, I’m gonna go one step further.
I’m gonna tell you the three games they
lose.
I did pick Baltimore to beat them.
I will also go with another mobile quarter
back, and his name is Deshaun Watson.
They lose in Houston.
And I think actually, for the first time in
a while, they are going to lose two in a row
on the road.
I think they lose to Philly.
So, we will see.
We have similar – but I think they’re
gonna lose to the cowboys at home.
Okay, alright.
We’ll that will make a lot of people in
my office happy.
Yeah, you know, finally.
Alright, so let’s start with – you and
I, we go back a long ways.
You have boundless energy.
Where did you get that?
Where did that come from?
I think my mother.
My mom is – you haven’t had the chance
to meet my mother yet, but she was born and
raised in Dublin, Ireland, inner city, and
she is the salt of the earth.
So, as a kid, we were doing cool stuff, we
were traveling, she was always asking us hard
intellectual questions, and she’s a ball
of energy.
So, I think there’s a genetic dynamic there.
I’m big on seizing the day, so I’m trying
to make the most of everyday that I’m here.
That’s nice, that’s – you know, it’s
interesting when I think about my dad, and
I think about what he taught me and the takeaways.
They were very easy for me to figure out,
you know.
He was a businessman, I’m a businessman.
He was very analytical; he was great in mathematics.
With my mom, it was a little harder to figure
out.
I don’t think I figured it out until the
last five or six years, and she gave me a
lot of soft skills.
My organizational skills came from her.
You know, being able to put together an outfit
and looking presentable, she taught me that.
It’s interesting.
So, what were some of things your dad taught
you?
My dad was a construction worker when I was
a kid.
He worked his butt off.
They had to work for everything they had,
and I never felt like I didn’t have everything.
What I’ve learned from my dad is loyalty
and work ethic.
My dad goes to work for his family, and he
works his butt off.
And so, having both sides of that as a kid,
I think has given me an advantage because
– I’ll tell you, when I first came to
Zappi, I called a mentor of mind, David Fitzgerald,
and I said, “I’ve never done this job.”
And he goes, “Yeah, but you’re gonna outwork
everybody, so you’ll be fine.”
And that’s something I got from my dad,
right, and it’s something I’m really appreciative
of.
Yeah, I think there’s some takeaways there.
I think that’s one of the reasons you and
I are such good friends, is that we share
that work ethic.
My dad, when he came down with cancer for
the first time in ’83, he would get his
treatments and go right to the office and
still beat in most of the people.
And, you know, I think it’s funny, I don’t
think you can teach work ethic.
I think you have it or you don’t.
I think you can kind of mask it a little bit
and, “oh the boss is coming in on Thursday,
so I’ll come in an hour early,” – you
know what I mean?
It’s almost pretend, but you – in my mind,
you either have it or you don’t have it.
You know what, I agree with you.
It’s a challenge, because as you’re building
out your team and business, is what you don’t
want to do is surround yourself with a bunch
of people that are just like you.
Because then the thinking isn’t good, the
innovation isn’t good, etc., but what I’ve
been learning to do, or at least how we recruit
is try to find people, ask interview questions
that are going to get at work ethic consciousness
behavior.
And I’ve found that you can get people that
care and work their butts off, without hiring
a bunch of Type A sales guys and gals.
So, I think that is a bound, because you can’t
teach people to care.
They sort of have to have that in their own,
in their own gut, you know.
Right, exactly.
So, those of you who are listening and haven’t
seen Ryan on stage.
Ryan, how would you describe your presentation
style?
I only present about topics I know about and
am passionate about.
So, if I’m presenting at a conference, I
usually have something I think is important
for the audience to hear.
I care about leadership.
I care about this industry; I’ve been making
my living in this industry throughout my whole
career and I intend to keep it that way.
And so a lot of times I’m in passion, sometimes
pissed off.
And it’s funny, I remember you and I got
asked to present somewhere once, and they
wanted us to write a script and we both laughed.
So that would be the third element of my presentation
style, it’s unscripted.
I have a message I want to share, but I read
the audience and tell stories.
Yeah, no, it’s funny, and nobody will believe
it, but we’re gonna talk for probably 40
minutes, because this will be a two-part series,
and this is unscripted.
I don’t know what I’m asking, I don’t
know what you’re saying, I don’t know
what the next question is, and it’s – you
know, it’s interesting Ryan, because it’s
not scary to either one of us.
It’s just you and I – like we were in
Las Vegas, 48 hours ago, you know, having
a discussion, that’s what this is.
It’s just being audiotaped.
But you brought up and interesting word, leadership.
And one of the things you said earlier when
we did word association, you said, “well,
it’s kind of a cliché and not everyone
understands it.”
I would actually suggest that leadership is
the same, you know, just because you have
a title doesn’t mean you’re a leader.
Just because you don’t have a title, doesn’t
mean you’re not a leader.
Right?
So, let’s talk about that for a second.
What do you think about the qualities, the
must have qualities, to be a leader?
Empathy.
Self-awareness.
The ability to listen and be told that you’re
wrong.
The balancing capability to know when it’s
time to lead from the front vs. empower from
the back – and I think that’s something
not anyone is perfect at.
But, you know, sometimes you’re in a crisis
situation and you need to say, “okay, everybody
follow me, we’re going left.”
And other times you need to be conscious and
sit back and ask people questions, so they
can figure out for themselves exactly what
to do and how to connect with other people.
And I think, you know, you read all the business
books and all the HBR articles, and they offer
these templates and framework, but each employee,
each teammate, each person’s different,
so a leader understands that and can get at
their level.
You don’t have to be managing people to
be a leader.
I mean, we got a guy, in the Zappi Boston
office, he name’s Joe.
He doesn’t have any direct report, but he’s
a leader.
When he talks, everybody stops what they’re
doing and listens.
And he portrays all of those traits that I
just laid out.
Yeah, you know, it’s interesting.
I totally agree with you, because we got some
folks here at M/A/R/C that used to have some
direct reports, they don’t anymore, and
the reality is they’re still impactful.
They’re still leaders.
When they talk, everybody listens a little
bit.
They still get that respect that everybody
wants and needs and that they deserve.
You brought up something interesting.
So, in a couple weeks, I’ll be presenting
at the Michigan State, in the classroom, and
I’m really gonna talk about self-awareness.
Because, I think if people have self-awareness,
you can really work on some of the things
that can get you into a position that can
help you strive to be the best you can be.
If I asked you self-awareness when Ryan Barry
was 22 years old, on a scale of 1-10 – 10
is a perfect, Merrill, and I know who I am,
what would that be?
What would you give yourself as self-awareness
as a 22-year-old?
A two, at best.
And what would it be now?
I’d say, seven and half – eight.
Yeah, so that’s probably – I’m not gonna
say my numbers are exactly yours, but the
gap is probably the same.
I may have been a one and now I’m a six,
or something like that.
How did you, because this is so important,
how did you navigate through that, and overtime,
year after year would go by, have better self-awareness?
I am always trying to get better.
That’s just part of my DNA.
I want to be a better father, a better husband,
a better – a better coworker, a better friend,
right.
So, I’m always taking time to be reflective
and introspective of what has happened.
So, I think that’s just part of me.
The how is, I’ve been very privileged with
two things: friends and mentors like you,
who have been willing to call me out and challenge
me and give me feedback.
Of course, it takes somebody who is willing
to listen to the feedback, right.
I think the other part of it is, I’ve had
the opportunities from a career perspective
to do different things, right.
So, whether it’s sell to big brands, lead
a sales team, lead a commercial function,
help build a business at multiple stages.
So you know, at each of those intersections,
you’re having to learn and unlearn skills
and change your behaviors.
That’s something that’s uncomfortable,
right?
You’re constantly working on something.
Last year it was time management and being
more present, this year it’s getting better
at asking more questions, and I’m very consciously
doing that, you know.
So, the last part of that, Merrill, is, you
know this better than I do, you’ve been
in a senior leadership role for a long time
– you have to be willing to learn from your
critics.
You know, there’s all these places where
people can give you feedback and sometimes
it’s not fun to hear it.
But if you listen to it and take it for what
it is, you can really help make yourself better.
And so, I think it’s, it’s a key trait
to being a leader, because a leader in this
business climate that we work in today, Merrill,
doesn’t have all the answers.
It’s impossible.
The markets move to quickly, the customers
move to quickly, so you have to be willing
to kind of disrupt yourself.
You know, it is, I’m gonna tell a couple
quick stories.
One of the things that really impressed me
is, six or eight months ago, when you called
me up and said, “Hey, I’m hoping you can
do a 360 on me.
Talk to me about what do I need to improve,
what are my strengths.”
And I know you did that with a few people.
The interesting thing for me was that you
listened and you wanted that feedback, because
I’ve always said to myself when I had evaluations
from people like Jim Fredrickson or John Bonney
or Sanford Schwartz, you know some of my mentors,
some of the people that I’ve worked for.
I was like, don’t tell me what I’m doing
right, tell me what I need to do to improve.
Tell me what I need to do to get to the next
level.
Tell me what I’m missing, right.
And you’re that guy.
It’s impressive.
I mean, I remember, I know you talk about
time management, but I remember, you know
in full disclosure, Zappi and M/A/R/C have
a really impressive and important partnership.
I remember when we were starting out and we
were staring to accomplish some things, I
remember hearing somethings, you know your
time management and your follow was a little
bit challenging because you had tremendous
– you had a lot of work on your plate, and
I’m not sure that three people could have
handled what Ryan had, but you handled it
like a champ.
And you listened, when I called you up and
said, “listen, the team is saying you’re
just not following up, you’re not getting
back to them in a timely fashion.”
And, you know, most people wouldn’t have
processed that information, you did like a
champ.
You were able to listen to it, you were able
to react to it, and you were able to change
it, and that’s impressive.
I think for the audience and for the people
that I know are gonna be listening, that’s
important life lessons, to be able to take
that information, take that criticism, take
that feedback – because it’s meant only
in a positive way, and be able to change is
unbelievable.
Because most people can’t do that, and they
won’t do that, right?
You know what’s funny, I just added this
to jobs, when we’re hiring now, I’ve added
this to all the jobs specs: have to be coachable
and willing to get feedback, because it’s
not – it’s never, I remember in both of
those instances, it wasn’t exactly easy
to hear it, but I listened to it, and as a
result, I’m better today because of it.
And so, because that’s my kind of approach,
I also give feedback very freely.
I only wanna work with people who wanna get
better, because we’ve all worked with the
person who knows everything and gets defensive,
and it’s like, “hey, I’m not telling
you this to be mean, right, I just want what’s
best for you and for the team that we’re
working on.”
Right, you know, it’s funny what you just
said, “Are you coachable?”
In May of 2000, I hired a women, Janet Savoy,
for the first time, and I’ve hired her twice.
And the reason I hired her, she was a finalist
for the position, my boss at the time wanted
to go in the other direction.
I wanted Janet, and he said, “why?”
And I said, “Because she’s coachable.”
She was somebody who had never been in sales,
but I knew I could train her.
I knew she had – she checked every other
box.
And because she was coachable, we’ve had
the opportunity to work together for over
20 years now, which is special.
So, we’re gonna go in a different direction.
My buddy, Steve [inaudible].
Great guy.
I love this word – thanks, yeah, he’s
a special, amazing, amazing human being and
really loves the insights industry and has
really delivered and has taken, taken his
company – I mean he’s a dealmaker.
It’s amazing, Ryan, because he’s able
to see things that others can’t, and he’s
able to integrate companies and bolt them
on to his, his brand, without a step.
And it’s just, it’s special.
I mean, ‘cause we did that at Harrison Interactive,
and we had trouble all over the place.
But, he has a word called provocative, and
I love that word.
We’ve chaired the CEO summit for 14 years,
and that word is always something that we
want in terms of presenters: provocative.
So, let’s get a little provocative for a
minute, okay.
Alright, baby, I’m in.
Let’s do it.
Take a deep breath.
From Ryan Barry to the world, what bothers
you about the insights industry?
I’ll tell ya what annoys me about both sides
of the industry.
Vendors, act like vendors, not partners, right.
They don’t want to be vendors, but they
act like it.
They build things, because they think they’re
cool, they throw buzzwords on them, and they
don’t make sure that they’re actually
helping corporate insights people do their
jobs better.
Corporate insights people.
Well, before we get to that, what percentage
fall into that category Ryan?
Too many Merrill.
I just got back from Vegas; I was at the market
research event.
I walked around the trade show booth and I
went to a lot of the, you know, the presentations.
There’s just a lot of me, me me, me, me,
me, why I’m better.
If I’m a corporate insights person, working
at Unilever or Pepsi or whatever, I don’t
care about that.
I care about how you’re gonna help me sell
more deodorant, how you’re gonna help me
get promoted, how you’re gonna help me be
more connected.
And so, I think the marketing research industry
has a marketing problem, and it isn’t, you
know, go sell more stuff, it’s “Are we
as companies aware of how we actually help
the companies we aspire to do business with,
solve problems, and grow.”
That’s where they’re being pointed, right?
They’re being pointed at being more storytellers,
at being more integrated with the growth conversations,
connecting data and representing the voice
of the consumer.
And, I’ll come on to my rant about corporate
insights people, if you’re ready for it,
or do you wanna?
No, I’m ready for it.
We wanna hear it.
We need to hear it.
I want you on that wall.
I need you on that wall.
Let me tell you something about Michigan State,
and why I’m involved in Michigan State.
They’re teaching corporate insights people
how to be modern.
Right, so I go out there, Mike Brereton’s
become now a really good friend of mine, I
go out there once a quarter, and I, I never
share a lot about Zappi, although Mike keeps
telling I need to do more, but I share a perspective
about the industry.
And what I love about what the MSU program
is doing, is it’s preparing people with
both sides of the industry – the technical,
fundamentals of how to do stuff right, but
then the ability to make sense of it in a
world where you can do an advanced piece of
analytics with a button click now.
So now what are you bring to the table, insights
people, right?
So, I think the corporate insights community
has got to get comfortable, being uncomfortable,
and using tools and technology to their advantage.
I remember I got into insights about twelve
years ago, and a lot of corporate insights
people were kind of procurement managers.
There’s a lot of great things that are being
done in the space on both sides, but it’s
being applied around the fringes.
So, I think my rant about corporate insights
is, they let themselves work in way too many
silos, they’re experiencing around the fringes,
but not really making the changes we need
to, to take advantage of the opportunities
we have in front of us.
And I think that’s partly on us as a vendor
community, because we’re doing a bad job
at connecting.
I went to a conference – I was at the conference
this week, right?
I had about five or six different vendors,
who I will not – who will remain unnamed
– tell me about their client.
And I’m sitting there like, your client?
They work with 50 other vendors.
How about we get together and integrate and
add value together, knowing that there is
no such thing as a one size fits all market
research provider.
You know, I know, that in the early days that
was the case, right Merrill?
But, it’s changed now.
There’s specialization.
There’s a need to integrate so that all
the learning can come together.
I’ll get off my soapbox now, because now
you’re getting me fired up.
No!
I want you fired up.
This audience wants you fired up.
Seriously, because I think it’s important.
Your passion comes from the right place, Ryan.
And look, there’s a lot of things that,
you know, we wish we could change within the
insights industry, right?
To me, I wish there was less associations.
I wish there was associations that were merged.
I think CASRO and the MRA getting together,
that was great.
That’s a nice step.
Dot, dot, dot, what took so long?
What took so long?
But they’re all so broken, right?
These organizations are pay to play models.
You know, if you’re a corporate insights
person there’s a couple of things you’re
trying to learn.
If you’re a vendor, you’re getting charged
30 grand to go present at a conference.
So, what do you do?
You’re throwing a sales pitch out there.
The connectivity of these organizations isn’t
meeting the needs of either side of the industry.
I wanna get involved and help.
I was just chatting with Brett [inaudible]
last week.
If anybody hasn’t read Brett’s, “Insights
people we need to wake up,” article, if
you’re in insights, you’ve got to stop
what you’re doing and go read Brett’s
article.
I know there’s people trying to solve the
problem, but it took – it’s taking too
long.
Oh, it’s, well this industry is really,
it moves like a snail.
Actually, I think a snail, unfortunately,
moves quicker.
I mean we’ve had – it’s always about
what’s the next shiny toy, right?
And that’s why, you know, AI, I mean, I
think you said it 20 minutes ago or so when
you said most people don’t understand what
it is, what it’s gonna become.
Nobody understands what the deliverable is.
Nobody can take that, that learning and get
some champions inside their client organizations,
because it’s too hard to understand.
And it’s, you know, but at what year do
we get it, and does it really have an impact
on this great industry that we’re in?
Yeah, exactly.
You know.
We’re not buying, we don’t need buzzwords,
right?
We need to use technology to make information
more accessible and get smarter in time.
And so, you can throw whatever buzzword you
want at that, but the problem is, people don’t
understand it.
So, you go to these meetings, and they throw
out a bunch of acronyms, and people feel silly
saying, “Hey, hang on a sec, what are you
actually saying?
What does that actually mean?
How will I actually use this?
How does this actually work?”
You know, and so, it’s funny, I’m on a
bit of a tangent at the moment internally
where I have a zero buzzwords policy.
So, anytime I see one on our website, in our
product material, I’m just like, “please
get it out.”
People need to just – we just need to speak
in more simplistic terms, I think, because
I think so often, we use words and think we
understand each other as human beings, and
we just don’t.
Let me give you an example.
I have this customer, very big, strategic
relationship, and we have three people at
Zappi, three people at this – it’s a big
beverage company, working on implementation.
And so as a social experiment, I wrote an
email to everybody.
I BC’ed them, and I said, “please write
back to me, what you think implementation
means.”
I got six different answers.
Right, so often we use words to replace understanding,
and we really got to make sure we actually
understand what the hell we’re talking about
– pardon my French.
Yeah, no, I totally agree with you.
I absolutely, totally agree with you.
So, listen, we’ve been talking with Ryan
Berry.
My name is Merrill Dubrow, this is Spartan
Insights.
You just listened to part one, part two will
be coming up next.
Thanks Ryan.
Thanks Merill.
Thanks Merrill.
