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kitty ferguson kitty Ferguson is the
biographer of Stephen Hawking she's
written a couple of books on him she's
written on Tico and brah he she's
written on Pythagoras those are the
biographical book she's written in
addition to that she's written books
about ideas the fire in the equations
lost science and others where she just
goes into the basic ideas in science and
what's really remarkable about her is
not only are these books written
extremely clearly but she was a
professional musician for the first you
know portion of her life didn't study
science but she came from an interesting
family that made that all possible so I
always was eager to talk to kitty so I'm
really happy that this remoteness has
made it possible to have it much earlier
than I thought we were going to be able
to do it
so welcome kitty Ferguson and thank you
very much for joining us this way well
great it's real privilege
our pleasure it's our pleasure so the
interesting the the the entry into your
life between the the like the line
between music and science was that you
were in Cambridge England and you met
Stephen Hawking it was like 1988 or so
and not too long after that you went
back and stopped being a professional
musician and started writing books and
your first book was about black holes
explaining black holes there's a really
interesting place to start it's like
starting with postgraduate work instead
of at the beginning so tell us a little
bit how that came about it's just
fascinating start well that is an
interesting story I think my daughter at
that time was 8 years old
and she decided to do a science fair
project about black holes now I had
joked I read a brief history time and I
was reading of the mr. Horne and wheeler
gravitation the big huge tome the
graduate student study about black holes
and gravity and so we got those books
out of the library and we worked on
others this science fair was one where
it was all right for parents to help
with the project as long as the child
could eventually be able to talk for 15
minutes with the judges on her own
without a project and so Kalin took this
on and we and I just remember one thing
very vividly we were working on Hawking
radiation and how particles escape from
a black hole or don't escape from a
black hole and so we laid out a rope in
our living room around in a big circle
and we pretended we were particle pairs
apart a pair of particles and one of
them would have to have negative energy
in one causative energy and sheõs wanted
to be the one with a negative energy to
them and she got this jumping to the
black hole well I got to escape to
infinity which was the kitchen that was
talented and so you know we live like
that it was a brilliant project and she
won a prize for it and my husband said
kitty
I think you could just take that project
which is one of those three-part things
you know three panels he said you could
add and you and Cavin could write a
young adult book about Michael he's had
a children's book actually about black
host he was a mediator so and I said I
don't want to do that I'm finally
getting back to the piano right and he
said once you won't do it maybe I'll do
it and I said no and then I did begin we
went beyond the projects and the Caitlyn
dropped out pretty soon she wasn't that
interested in continuing with this but
she she had now a PhD from Harvard in
microbiology because it was a different
story so actually she didn't quit
exactly which you could also sauce and
so anyway I decided to derive a book for
children has been turned out publishers
didn't know is not really for children
it's more for young adults so that's how
it turned out
but in doing that and as I always said I
don't just go to my local physics
teacher to ask my questions I went to
John Wheeler at Princeton ask him and
Marvel stories I could tell about him
but the but then we were in Cambridge
because my husband as an academic he had
a sabbatical and we were in Cambridge
England and I began talking with some of
Stephen Hawking students about why his
graduate students and they said you know
you should really talk to Stephen you
noticed even so I mean I was alone there
was a lot of work to get to talk to
Steve my hips find a way around his
secretary and all of this but I did
finally go in a state within one evening
and it was very interesting because most
of the time he willing to this is
Stephen Hawking somebody gives you a
little idea ahead of time what it's
going to be like if you've never met him
for instance you don't see the cross for
you gush it didn't now he's no longer
with us we didn't sit across the desk
from him he sat beside so that you can
see his screen where he is we was doing
his communication you know making these
words excluding his work I didn't know
that but it was obvious how to do that
the other thing was that if he's them
you'll see
the words going down to a sentence at
the bottom of his computer screen and
pretty soon you know where he's going
you know what he's going to say but you
don't interrupt you let him finish you
always let him finish what he was going
to say but then you didn't have to wait
for him to activate the speech
synthesizer once you saw the sentence
there you could go ahead with the
passing presses but that was interesting
but what happened that evening was that
I read him a couple of passages from the
book I was writing at that time about
black hopes and as I read those passages
there and then otherwise completely
silent room they found it so deadly dull
and I stopped and I said professor
Hawking I am so sorry that this sounds
so dull and he said what has to be fun
and I said well my editor wants to tells
me it should be a serious science well
not you know don't get too flippant
about or anything like that I could I
what can I tell him do it convincingly
it should be fun
and Stephen said after all you know he
did it with him his computer tell him I
said so
that'll do it more than just kind of a
charming anecdote because it has to be
fun
it's just his motivation for all his
work all his desire to to convey his fun
to everybody not just buckets and
scientists but to what he calls ordinary
people you and me you know he wants us
to join that adventure you wanted back
and that was just a huge and he always
said himself it's not here to call his
work he loves doing it and he wanted to
convey that luck and that was one of the
huge things that I remember about him
his fat desire and I worked on that
sometimes he didn't succeed too well and
bring it down to ordinary people's level
but he well buddy yeah it's a rather
hard thing to write ago I was I'm very
pleased that my first book about him
though got reviewed
the London taxi times and remember that
the London taxi times said to the
Ferguson's book about Stephen Hawking if
the book that tells us what the bloody
hell brief history of time was all about
for those who didn't make it past
chapter two I treasured that well you
knew him for a long time and you've you
wrote the final version of his biography
again after he passed away one of the
things that's interesting is that his
idea about black holes shifted over time
from from the early his earlier thoughts
and then later thoughts and so on so
forth so he evolved and a lot of times
people say scientists have all their
ideas when they're in their mid-twenties
but obviously he kept thinking and
changing his ideas all the way to the
end of his life and he did live a long
time especially under the physical
circumstances he lived on well that was
one of the marvelous things about him
was the way he would pull the rug out
from under his own feet and he certainly
did how many times in his life and I was
reminded of that because I was looking
back at my book about you'll have his
Kepler and Kepler said about himself I
am armed with incredulity not about my
own previous discoveries about
everything anybody has ever assumed are
discovered armed with incredulity so now
that was Stephen Hawking he was armed
with infertility about his own previous
work and he was always out there I mean
the very last month of his life he was
almost overturning one of the things he
had really come to the firm conclusion
about earlier that was really did it's a
marvelous example it's the way science
should work and sometimes doesn't but
that was mentioned by several people at
his the internment of his internment of
his ashes at Westminster Abbey that
ability to change his mind
willingness to change his mind and it's
a great lesson really yeah yeah do you
do you have any ideas I mean I know that
it's kind of interesting because black
have this name black holes but they're
not really black holes and so they're
misnomer but the original idea was that
it swallowed everything around them and
therefore would be black but he
developed the ideas that no there's the
it must be spinning off other things it
doesn't get everything in there and you
were talking about that from when your
your daughter did it there's a practical
one goes in one goes out so that's how
we can kind of see them and they have
they have we're not seen at all at the
time that you were talking about it with
him in the 80s when the first time that
they they there's something that they
could see in the universe just recently
but they did have visual evidence for
black holes starting about ten or
fifteen years ago or so right that's
very early the actual evidence for them
besides theoretical evidence the
theories of my clothes are one of those
really almost unique examples in science
of some you've understood and studied
and believed in long before anybody saw
one long before there was any official
it's a very interesting it's an
interesting thing the way that has
worked and now he was he we know and and
one of the most interesting things also
about Hawking radiation that's what we
were talking about here that's it when
Stephen first this was in the seventies
early seventies he had said you know
nothing can come out of a black hole
nothing can escape past the event
horizon the event horizon which is the
border of the black hole can never grow
smaller the area of it can't grow
smaller and he fought that change of
mind he really thought he didn't want to
change his mind
yeah and if you look at the paper that
he wrote about that he comes out in one
way he comes having another way and he
comes to the same conclusion so he tried
it another way it's really a brilliant
thing how hard he tried to live like
then faced his colleagues who wouldn't
believe it either so it was rubbish
that's now considered his his most
significant contribution to Sciences
Hawking radiation
it's an interesting part about about our
scientists they their attitude towards
their beliefs
it's not that much different from
religious believers in terms of once
you're once you have a set of
assumptions and you live your life in
based on it in religion but if you live
your career on it in science you don't
want to see those assumptions go away
because you've built it up unless you
just totally have the scientific
attitude which is show me something that
persuades me that I'm wrong you know
like you said you totally incredulous
but there are very few that have that
because it's the kind of a place of sand
to stand on instead of a hard rock no I
wish I remember who wrote that saying
that scientists can survive being
treated as arrogant or closed-minded are
all kinds of things
the one thing that science can't stand
is being told that you are always right
that is absolutely death to science and
I think that's and so Stephen Hawking
has not done no and and it's it's
interesting that that perfectionism that
being you know saying that you're always
right ruins every single career it ruins
doctors
it ruins professors it ruins lawyers I
mean I I thought you know in New York
that the best lawyers admitted they were
wrong about two percent of the time if
they never admitted that they were wrong
then then they were we're not so good
admitted they were wrong ten percent of
the time they weren't good enough but
two percent that was about right you
know that you you have to you know
whatever your specialty is and and a lot
of people who do investments think it's
wonderful the doctors all think they
know everything because then they can
get them to invest in in what they want
and they're they're perfect in their
field but they don't know anything about
this other field so but so it's it's
it's interesting there's so few people
that adopt that scientific attitude
which we'll get to later when we talk
about Pythagoras because that's sort of
the start of the build up of enthusiasm
for that attitude so let's step back a
second off of Stephen Hawking you
you were a a mother young mother and so
on and but you had been a professional
musician for 10 or 15 years already at
that point right when wrote the book
black holes and met Stephen Hawking
that's right I went to the Julliard
School and I was a voice major and but
one of the things that I learned how to
do with Juilliard in addition to have a
saying I learned how to conduct because
I there was a little chorus that sang
for all the conducting lessons that you
know involved of course you got paid a
little bit of singing of course it was a
good way to make a little money so I
said there is so many conducting lessons
a lot so after after I graduated and I
did do some wonderful things I mean I
sometimes when I think back at that time
and I was singing in some of the large
some of the professional choruses in New
York and the guy and the chorus you know
you really rather be singing solo but my
kunis I sang under the baton of
Stravinsky and Bernstein and Bauer and
code by all these people I mean I think
back now didn't really appreciate it as
much as I liked one thing idea there was
a great fun I was a New York City Ballet
in Mendelssohn's Midsummer Night's Dream
there's a part for a chorus so and I was
I was the soloist in that when you sing
it from the lobster pit and I was the
first theory and you're coming and it
was brilliant I loved doing that does
your dad know you don't dance
okay how many talents do you have but I
did have it but then anyway then this is
when you're living in New York then when
our our children our two boys or go six
five two years old we decided we wanted
them to have more of a childhood like
the one my husband I had had we grew up
in Texas in San Antonio so we moved out
to western New Jersey really out into
the country there and they
there and there I began directing church
choirs something that I was pretty well
prepared to do but I never really tried
to do and enjoy that very much and one
of my great pride and joy through those
years was researching in great detail
after in the library in americana
collection in New York City all the
music that was written about the time of
the American Revolution and this was a
time when you're celebrating the
Bicentennial and we gave a cher concert
Halloween costume all in candlelight and
of that music which is some magnificent
music solid is really propaganda music
for the revolution right it's beautiful
and so that was one of my really big
achievements in my life I think that was
so you you created that for the
Bicentennial and and yes I was all done
you'd worked on it for about a year or
so when I was all done what's your son
say when your son what did your son say
to you thank goodness that's over for
another two hundred years but I think
that one of the interesting things was
and you think so many people say you
know how can you come to science after
that the thing was that I was I did grow
up in a family
my father was a musician he was a high
school band director and a church choir
director but a wonderful musician I
shouldn't say but a wonderful physician
and a wonderful musician he also loved
mathematics and he loved teaching us
kicks and you always say three things
and then you'd say not to explain it to
you till he'd be at the dinner table we
moved a salt and pepper shaker around
this is the solar system as far as Venus
and so on you know and all this and he
learned so much like that and some
things were complicated in that but what
he said was if I can't explain it to you
little guys
I don't really know it and I've heard
that Richard Fineman told the students
at some point if you can't explain this
to you know maybe not children but
almost you don't really know it and that
was my father's attitude and he just
made it such fun you know it's all fun
so that I never thought of science is
something that other people did or only
some other people did or you had to do
in school it was just something you did
for fun and that's I think what gay he
deserves to go on into it later on house
I'd like to Stephen Hawking says fun
it's fun exactly so you you tell a story
in measuring the universe which is quite
a move from from what you did measure
but you said as a child your father
taught you how to measure or windmill
right by measuring the shadow I think
yeah yeah that's right you took us out
you said we measure the height of the
windmill is on my grandparents farm and
we went out here and yes you know with
my brother and my brother was three
years younger than I I think I was about
nine years old okay and we had to think
about he wanted to know our ideas about
how we do it so we'll you're going to
climb it Dan I guess and you know
measure it now or maybe we'll throw
something over the top and my brother
taught himself is still is a very fine
mathematician perhaps we could do
something over the top and measure the
arc that he follows as it goes through
the air and my friend my father my
father would always say no matter what
the idea
good thinking and then he showed us how
to do it by measuring the shadow of the
window and the shadow of a yardstick and
the ratios between those and it was
pretty good math you know we had to be
that out but it was so marvelously
simple it was just isn't that very
Pythagorean don't they it's just
thinking too because we'll get back to
Pythagoras at the end but the idea that
the Sun might be a sphere and that the
earth might be a sphere came from
shadows and and and so on I was on the
earth I don't there's almost all the
information that you see tells you one
thing but there's a couple pieces before
to tell you something else you know and
then you got to put the whole picture
together yeah yeah yes so I don't story
is the first measurement of
circumference weird Eratosthenes and his
measuring the shadow down into the well
and he did that and that was what in the
third century BC I'm am I right about
that I'm not sure but it's a great story
yes true you don't need to go that way
thanks man so simple so simple most of
people don't realize that you know they
were able at that time and not at the
time Tigers but afterwards in the next
couple generations or a couple centuries
they figured out that the diameter of
the I mean the circumference of the
earth was pretty close to 25,000 miles
so they the game they came fairly close
not not precise like we do now but they
were pretty close yeah the book
measuring universe you know shows the
Lateran but you have to know that before
you can figure out the distance to this
sonnet we absolutes are the moon even
you have to know that before you can get
the next step it's a ladder and
sometimes it fails moving pops but it's
very interesting how one thing builds on
another and that's a great story
yeah so lost in science I mean lost sign
law science not lost in space that's a
different thing but lost science what
what pieces of science that you talked
about that that we've lost pieces pieces
that got lost you know yes I found that
a rather frustrating book to write
because I couldn't although I tested a
lot a lot of people among my friends
scientific friends over at Cambridge
University in England it's so hard to
find something that's really lost
because you'll think you found something
and then you take it to so many more or
less in that field well everybody knows
that but I guess what am I mine is my
favorite story in there really I don't
know it it's the most lost if her beasts
the Jesuit astronomer who went to China
in the 1600s and took action took honey
Tycho's
people drive takanakuy Taconic astronomy
with him matter of fact the only true
replicas of Tegel ride magnificent
instruments you know this was before
telescope
I mean his magnificant nificent
instruments that exist in the world
today are in Beijing and they where the
work with the Emperor made at their
beasts direction and all of their they
are but a message of marvellous glory
because if you read Mark Twain's a
Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's
Court so where the guy to save his life
by predicting the eclipse right and he's
saved his life and similar to few white
people there being able to measure where
shadow was going to fall at a certain
hour everybody held their breath it was
like a never-ending opera Turandot and
then he came up with it and three times
he had to be there to make that work and
he was persecuted for his religion and
he used science to save himself
um why was he why was his life at risk
he's a Jesuit I'm just guessing I don't
think was because of that it was just
the intrigue of the court fair can't we
have enemies and and their enemies of
the Jesuits and they were they popular
is it but sometimes and not as others so
I'm sorry I can't remember the classic
circumstance I even gave a lecture on
that once too and I should remember it
anyway the goods and anything about
happily then and that but the way I got
into that story was that I read that
police had invented the first automobile
hmm this was a little tiny not so big I
am no toy size that he did invent resent
round Steve and he invented it for the
emperor of China and it was after this
other triumphant II was very close to
the Emperor but he invented this little
thing he had a rudder on so I could
guide it so wouldn't run out of the room
and they were you read stories all over
between bed either first automobile in
the FO China row to the streets in
Beijing no he didn't somebody was remark
and it and then he invented a little
boat to that would run that same way I'm
not really exactly but they were both
steam-driven and very great and
brilliant so that's how I got into that
and found my way down into other story
and all that other stuff and that one
what else know whatever the measurements
of the transit of Venus that he had to
go all the way across Mexico and lost
his life over there in Baja Mexico
I'm not California that's a good story
how about in fire in the equation fire
in the equation that's said I know that
you're on the Board of Advisors for the
Templeton organization about not anymore
what my world but but the fire in the
equations book had ideas in it that that
Sir John Templeton and got interested in
and asked you so what is that really
caught his attention
I have no idea from an agnostic point of
view I've never gave way in weather
which whether I believe in God or not
and I didn't sure writing and whether I
succeeded in that in but I'm some of the
letters I got a guy I thought yes I
really did succeed in hiding because I
can get some letters they would say how
can you be such a shameless apologist
for religion and the next night he was
but only followed Jesus Christ all these
problems in your life will be solved
enough oh they don't know now that was
and I've made a point of when I was
right about something
I would I would always like for instance
Richard Dawkins a saying the Savior when
I wrote about his ideas I didn't just
write about them I actually ran my what
I didn't buy him to make sure that I
descended that correctly the way he
wanted it and wasn't distorting his see
if I did that with everybody that I
wrote about well everybody's still alive
by deduction but the book really
and inside of kind the academic book
although it includes a lot of theology a
lot of a lot of signs because I really
just wanted to go right
to the horse's mouth so to speak what is
sign to really say not what do people
think sciences but what is it really is
running and the same thing about in
religion do what nothing theologians but
what do people really believe and one
advantage I had was that running with
when I was dragging choirs and when I
was doing that kind of work I was in I
was in the Episcopal Church I was in the
that was church I was in the
Presbyterian Church I was in did
Passover up in the Catskills Catskills
of the Pentecostal church
I knew the wide range of what people
actually believed and that's in that
book and it was an exploration for me to
find out whether there was a conflict no
that's what it was all about and I
wasn't didn't really know which I was
writing it whether or not I would hide a
conflict and that's personally mention
yeah embed you a bit following your
father's advice that you have to get it
clear enough in your own head so you can
explain it to somebody else to know what
you think sort of yeah I didn't preach
it either way I just let you decide you
decide so let's go to the tio and body
book it's a partnership that you wrote
about and how how they move Copernicus's
idea but but it's an odd odd partnership
so it's in terms of the two different
characters yeah I thought a
dysfunctional collaboration kingcobra
was an aristocrat Danish and hmm please
a generation older than Kepler after was
a school teacher wanted to be a
clergyman became a school teacher
instead in Graz in Austria and the cap
was heard most of the craziest things I
remember hearing because Kepler wrote
his book mysterio when he was fairly
young and oh and Gingrich at the at
Harvard the astronomer there has said
seldom in the history of science has
such a wrong book being so seminal in
directing the future
what Kepler was trying to carry
Pythagorean I didn't because you're
looking for patterns you looking for you
know so patterns of ionization he is
what he did in this book was to try to
sit there trying to figure out what
separated the orbits of the planets I
what made them orbiters they do sitting
with a five platonic solids between
those orb and dancing and actually
didn't work too badly but the wake of
Kepler you know people at that time
astronomers were trying to figure out
trying to find ways to predict where the
planets would be you know rotor
positions in various times and you know
CalPERS predecessors there although they
didn't think Copernicus really was right
about you fun being the center they
loved Copernicus's mathematics because
it gave them better predict better
predictions no and they accept very much
like so but here came Kepler and he was
not interested in just where the planets
were he wanted to find out what was
really going on up there among these big
bodies in the sky and he didn't just
want to know what was going on he wanted
to find out why he wanted the physical
explanations now he didn't discover the
physical explanation but in trying to
find them he came up with his three laws
of planetary motion that we still you
know they're correct and he can into the
explanations we had to wait for a Newton
three fighters will essentially major
but it was in that search and it was
really Kepler who kind of propelled
science forward into an era where
physical explanations were essential and
they weren't before that that was one of
Kepler's contributions and Capra just
can't have that Pythagorean imagination
that desire for the Harmony and things
fitting together beautifully along with
his desire to look at the observations
to find out does it work yeah plus his
he was just
mathematician you put those three things
together and he gave us the future of
science really the next round so they
stand in Tico's T equals role in this
was he collected the information he Tico
had already before he ever met Kepler
once had measured spent years observing
Mars mm-hmm that was what he was doing
it was Tico's Mars observation that
Kepler wanted to see in order to on his
photonic solids and of it so he he went
to at this time
Tycho Brahe had moved to near Prague to
the Natsuki Castle there you had to
leave Denmark under kind of unfortunate
circumstances he was there and working
as the Imperial mathematician for the
Holy Roman Empire under would also
second and go Kepler went here but teeka
was very suspicious of Kepler because he
thought Kepler was trying to steal his
his observations trying to support
person to call versus Nicholas Bear who
had risen who plagiarized Pico and
thought couple on his side because of
all Atika wouldn't let kept for anywhere
near those observations
okay this was terribly frustrating very
much we couldn't get to them and this
went on and on and this kind of a sad
story
finally just shortly before Tico's death
you know I'm looking days almost he
decided to trust Kepler with those
observations and they both went to
rudolph the emperor rudolf ii and
proposed that together they put together
something called a Rudolf seen cables
which would be based on those
observations and for that Kiko had to
allow Kepler into the whole thing and
then was Kepler who on Tico's death and
inherited it all fell into his head at
that point except for the variety of
family trying to take it away all the
time you all is difficult but that's
that's when Kepler was finally able to
get these hands left if he goes death
it's really a fascinating story no
went on 30 years right I mean it took
him years and years to extract that
information but yeah that's right and
Jeff I didn't have anything like
something look him wikipedia says he had
11 children I'm pretty sure he had 13
but I think you have 13 children and
only five even lived to adulthood oh it
was a time to be alive
Kepler was able to get a job at any of
littering universities as brilliant as
he was and he was the Imperial
mathematician didn't get a job he could
be a daddy one point that a Catholic
also was a child of God he was the most
exuberant early religious man
exuberantly religious tempest he said my
god I'm thinking my boss after the e I
love that my and any point ready to talk
about God as though God is a colleague
and he said here because he heretofore
we have not noticed such an unshielded
Racal conception in his other work he
was saying he finally found you know he
was looking for the geometry okay was
the Pythagorean again yeah yeah it's
it's it's fascinating we were talking
about it earlier how you get an idea in
your head and then you want reality to
conform to the idea and it's it's the
ancient Greek idea do you pursue truth
or you pursue beauty and it's a it's a
an interesting observation because it's
it's who Burris really to think that
your own imagination can come up with
some more beautiful explanation than
trying to figure out what's really there
and and I think it's it's both hoover's
about your imagination but also fear
that what's really there isn't so pretty
for us and we'll find out something we
really don't want to know about our
lives but we've gotten so used to
getting to be a smaller and smaller part
of the universe that at this point it
doesn't seem like there should be much
fear left for what's out there because
it's not you know think so but there's
still plenty right now Stan let's go
back to Stephen Hawking for a little
while you know as I said you did when
was the last time that you talked to him
did you get to see him again
a couple of times or not I wish I had
chocolate in war closely before death no
I was I'm winning I am he and his
publisher that I'm asking to come in and
help him make his book universe in a
nutshell that was one of his books
helping my simpler help him make it a
little simpler and so we worked for a
while by email and then I spent a couple
of weeks over in Cambridge and when and
every day and we would hop on his screen
yet his two computers up there one with
his communication system and the other
with the manuscript of his book and that
was interesting because I would say
Steven I think that sentence that I
really I think you know you've got to
find a way to say that simpler and then
he would click with his little thing and
you should say seems perfectly clear to
me what's going to happen but I looked
over and I thought he was kidding me
missing me just look he worked very hard
to make that simpler I don't know
reading a book whether we really
succeeded in making it simply but we
really tried yeah try Barry but so
whenever I was going to write a new
revision of my book about him I would go
in and talk with him about what should
be in it what shouldn't be instrument
you want me to mention this or not you
know and he would usually mention
several scientific things that should be
in it and then he would usually send me
to one of his associates whose specialty
that was or because at the time that I
was dealing with him he was really
working on other people's specialty a
little more right and but so I was going
and work Amanda green back to him and we
talked about it and I'd also go in
whenever you just don't go in and shoot
a fat Stephen Hawking I mean I just hope
you do but I was thought does with me
that for me you know right I want to
you I'm I probably didn't go in as much
as I might have but I did like to go in
when they're sleek funny to tell him and
I remember going in once and telling him
love Beca you know on Amazon how I say
people who bought this book also bought
rice 20 not that ok and this had kids of
people who bought Kitty Ferguson's book
Stephen Hawking his life and work also
but warfare in Afghanistan from
Alexander the Great to the Taliban the
publisher of that book was paying for
that he would always get a kick out
stuff like that you know so I like to 20
well I if you could tell us a little bit
about how Stephen managed first he had
he had a lot of grad students I assume
that worked with him in a lot of other
associates and other people that worked
with him on these things and here he was
every year probably a little bit more
disabled little harder to convey what
he's thinking although he had a lot of
good equipment but it must have been
exhausting physically for him in that
situation you know it that's one of the
more impressive things about his output
and his effect etc is is that he was
able to work against this crippling
disease and and stay relevant stay
thinking all the way into his seventies
is amazing he wasn't feeling insisted on
what he called going into work going to
the office but what he usually had he
had for graduate students mm-hmm and
only for and they they came there would
be one it was about to finish but now
and finish the new one came in so they
were phased out for years and the one
way he worked with him is one of them
would come in they were going to working
on his ideas or one of their own and
they would present him with an equation
or
solution and they would say is that like
a rock and that right and he could just
answer that with us just one movement
really you know and if it was wrong they
had to be prepared you say it is it
wrong for this reason no reason and then
he had to answer that or is it wrong for
this reason they couldn't you say was
wrong yeah I could thank them for the
reasons why it might be wrong and
present him with those and that's that's
one of the ways and what a marvelous way
to teach yes yes exactly
something like that she did that he also
had a way his colleagues like to say
that you know you savvy earth maybe this
business people have colleagues has
professor with friends and so on they'd
be there talking about something and he
wouldn't hear very much from Steven so
all of a sudden he would break him and
have something to say and I think his
Kip Thorne his colleague out in
California and said that when Steven did
that he had a way of turning the whole
conversation around it was he was always
a huge contribution breaking too often
but that's where he did it and it was
always they always thought you know he
just sits there a lot of the time but
then he comes in just at the right
moment mean question or comments and the
turning point whatever P so that's kind
of the way he works with his colleagues
so also one of the interesting things
that I was able to do when I wrote my
final decision of my book of mine my
final admission after he died was has
some long talks with the people at Intel
who would worked with him on his
communication system for years and years
long time now one of the things that I
had not known before was that he has a
very start
maybe the condition with them he
wouldn't work on it at all with them I
used their services unless they made it
all open-source those other people could
use call we're going to make a fictional
Stephen Hawking and but their comments
about him how you know that you didn't
really realize that the smallest
change in your system you might change
the tiny change in timing it took from
the single that he would give it with
his eyelid time he was just with his
cheek muscle and the time words we chose
the word on the screen if that timing
changed it's a little bit through him
completely yeah and the woman who was
working with him said you know yes I
think if the timing changed in your own
speech between the moment you tried to
say the word in the moment it came out
he would throw you all right now missus
he's doing it and a baby said he was
very risk-averse he didn't like a big
chance he didn't like change yes I kinda
liked what he had but they they
struggled they were still child
struggling with it at the time he died
to keep him communicating keeping able
to write be in touch well it's tough for
them too because I'm sure they were
interested in continually improving what
they were working on with him and that's
that was not their only interest but
that was a big part of their interest
and he was resistant to change I mean if
you if you have a new software program a
medical software program or something
like that and there's a couple of
changes everybody yells and screams
until they get used to it because it who
wants to keep learning this all the time
but you're talking about these subtle
changes in how he communicates it must
have been really irritating speech
predictions everything he would always
go back and run it again you know sizes
only and they told his story about there
is they were to banquet out and within
talent people in California I guess it
was and and this was shortly after they
had worked on him with a speech
prediction and all of a sudden he would
come out with some non sequitur again
nothing to do with the conversation that
was going on at the top of his voice and
this was his joke I mean he just he said
his speech prediction go ahead so that
that was one of the nice things about
writing that final position also its
able to talk with
one of friended his Robert Donovan had
saved in graduate students together and
they have lived together in the same
housing when we were both graduate
students at Cambridge and this fellow he
was the best man in both of Hawking's
weddings and knew him so well it's
mother and having two marvelous stories
to tell and I also spoke with a couple
his carers who had worked with Stephen
for so long and and you know their
experiences with him yeah I love it
the one who said well when I first met
him no I wasn't shocked he wasn't cause
I thought he was and things like that it
really I think is adding so much to that
to that final addition and magic save
you could I just say right now there's
anybody who wants it's called
Stephen Hawking a life well-lived now
the older one is called his life and
with is a Stephen Hawking a life where
we lived it has the same cover except
for that but it's not available in
America it was only available right
England from you can get it from Amazon
UK it's available in China it's
available in India it's available all in
Russia it's not available here and I
hope it will be I hope eventually it
will be but right now it's not yeah but
it is just pretty biography and it ought
to be out there so no no see what
happened well at least you can get it
you can still get it but what did it
should it should may be made more easily
available yeah if you don't look it up
under that title Susan seemed talking a
life well-lived that's that's how you
find it so yeah outcome people I just
thought of a pop you know of culture
question did you see the movie about
Stephen Hawking that Eddie
Raymond played in I think it conveyed
yeah something about me yeah yes
interesting because Stephen his own
reaction to that was largely true
largely true
and I think that's that's right I think
my reaction would be if Masada would
feel good movie it was a lovely movie
but gets their lives doing during that
time was dark it was darker it's a dark
gritty whittier story there really and
that del Sol you know you want to pick
things apart like you know he wasn't
carried out of an opera house and anyway
that wasn't by white area they were
carrying and I bet my thyroid and that
it's all integrity but that must be
doesn't Mabel in that movie was
presented big romantic highlights
yeah yeah reality James spent most of
that evening trying to find some way
that she was going to get back to st.
Albans where only without driving misty
because he was such a thoughtful driver
she was scared to death drive already
came she was trying to find it right
back so so it wasn't that was really but
there wasn't really a romance oh yeah
without playing the movie makers are
doing that because just beautiful was
wonderful and Steven did say that
watching Eddie Redmayne he could it was
I thought I was watching myself
that's huh that's lovely that's a nice
thing to say why he's a very talented
man had yep I think so let's let's now
go to the ancient times
you-you-you-you did Stephen Hawking it
did TMI and then did you do
Pythagoras last and when you wrote about
Pythagoras right and life sciences are
frustrating because I think every one of
the people I wrote about in that desert
old book yes that came later but yeah
how did you get interested in Pythagoras
I mean how did you go back to to the
beginning of enthusiasm for math and
science basically I mean there was
interest in it before but this was this
was a fire that was lit clearly I think
they are interested in in Kepler and
looking back from that and chapter on
capillary in my Pythagoras book I think
is one of us I've been written on
anything
yeah and we're on Catholic he does a
bagra's book but but that was an
interesting book to write because
nothing is known about Pythagoras though
it's all right
nothing is oh that's where you usually
is the Pythagorean describe an ancient
facts about which almost nothing is
known and that exactly right
I'm we don't know if you think about one
of the major sources is bachi Argos hi
major sources it's a good time of
Aristotle this is entry hood you know we
don't know and so the way I wrote the
book really was to explain the legends
how much they might be true sometimes
they make sense based on other people's
comments and so on sometimes they make
no sense so you begin to kind of hone
out what you can accept and what you
can't but everything everything you read
it was said it has been said it was
written the Alliance one of the major
sources on the pythagoreans in in the
next century after Pythagoras had died
you know oh he wrote about great until
he wrote a book well we have fragments
of that book fragments not pieces of
that book what other people wrote about
what was in that book wrote that's the
kind of employment sphere we know a lot
about Pythagoras to Plato Plato got
everything he knew to market oz who was
in Pythagorean and Tarentum and southern
Italy but was not a contemporary of a
Congress did his lifetime overlap there
seem to that being the babbling for a
very very secret group there I mean they
they ruled they were powerful in Cortona
southern Italy but what they believed
what they taught the way they lived
themselves very secret party their own
fault that we don't know anything about
and but there evidently it is thought
were a member of what were called memory
books which were written after that
Pythagorean community and other local
communities that were dispersed because
they were so persecuted they lost their
power they were just first I had to
going to go underground and many of them
wrote what they call memory books to
pass on down through their families now
that's what we here do these memory
books exist no do we have any quotes
from them no all we know is that there
were some to claim to be memory books
later maybe forgeries may have been
fiction the Romans loved to write
fiction about those colleges on to write
fictional stories really about
Pythagoras so what do we know so I you
know you're able to pinpoint that
amazing discovery which will come to
that many but but my main the main
thrust of my book was to follow that
idea down through the centuries to the
press right and the playing it has
influenced science ever since the way
it's been reinterpreted by generation
after generation the you know how the
fabulous is viewed and the way it comes
down to us today and it's still alive I
mean that looks when we stand out
signals into space to see whether there
are any aliens they vow to understand me
we send out the Pythagorean theorem we
don't even know what if a tiger is you
don't have the energy the basic piece of
logic I bet you think if they're
intelligent people they will have
discovered that too because it's so
basic and they'll recognize it and so
then we still you know we do that and we
tell about a perfect 10 that's a beggary
an idea says the Purefoy number and but
the bear great contribution
when they were and this I think we know
about it we don't know whether this was
Pythagoras or his followers or but there
were people about that time right with
him and they were experimenting with
string lengths from a lyre in a heart
lyre and questioning why certain
combinations of string lengths produce
music that was pleasing to the human ear
and beautiful and others did not and
they discovered that the link between
string lengths and human ears was not
something accidental or arbitrary and
with some ratios the mathematical ratios
that underlied with the harmony our
symbol in a marvelous way and they
concluded and it's sort of a flash of
brilliant understanding this was their
conclusion that there's pattern and
order underlying the all the confusion
and complication of nature mm-hmm and
it's accessible to us through numbers
the universe is rational that was the
discovery the universe is rational and
we have gone without assumption ever
since we don't know that the universe is
rational but we've gone with that
assumption right yeah taken us to the
edges of space and time it's changing
aspect as I hear Tesla wrote its rhythm
extended what positive thing a negative
thing positive and it has taken us where
it's taken us negative perhaps in that
it looking at the universe that way may
put a numerical straightjacket on our
knowledge where we willing to explore
beyond what seems illogical and
numerical and modifiable and he thinks
particularly of value to human values is
something that can't be done that very
but sure you know there there could be
an enormous amount of reality out there
that is beyond numbers and that we don't
know thanks to the experience perhaps
yeah I think that's the legacy that's
what's the legacy that Kepler did
Copernicus follow Copernicus was a bit
angry right me you know
and Kepler and Newton and to the present
you know it's this belief in a rational
universe and you mentioned Plato and and
there's stories of Plato going around
looking for those books Pythagorean
books and that's maybe 150 years after
Pythagoras something like that and so
books must have existed then become he
went around yeah whatever the time yeah
something like that some of the groups
Pythagorean oh the Pythagorean is yes
yes not written by Pythagoras but but
the books that you the memory books and
so on he was looking for them and the
books so much he was looking for for
people for those communities find what
they believed what they thought but what
they're for sorry it seems very very yes
you just try to write and look like that
you realize no I can't really say that I
can say what people thought I can say if
I can say what seems logical some of the
things that they say that the bad girl
is taught originally can to be credible
because they are not right in the spirit
of that time right the idea that rulers
should never consider themselves
superior to the people they rule not
acting something that you find in the
ancient world that much women women were
encouraged to argue with their husbands
but if they won the argument they were
not considered if it made their husband
subject to do that well there is an
interesting thing about Pythagoras
teaching women right I'm not certainly
against the culture and what's the
evidence for that there's now a lot but
there is I think a list of Pythagorean
thinkers from about 800 years later and
on the list there's like 34 women out of
the 200 and some so it's like 17% or
something a very high number for that
time we just really don't know how much
that that's true and that I love the
young teaching is supposed to be from
him strive to become
what you wish to seem to be and runned
around the race of life and knowledge
not like you're trying to be Taggart oak
but just to make it to the goal as well
as you can and I was Pythagorean ender
and when he told his students everyday
mejia she chose us to see his students
not originally because they were so
brilliant her because their their minds
because of a certain gentleness of
spirit a certain love the ability to
remain silent and after he had satisfied
himself on those criteria so didn't he
began to judge whatever the second tier
after they'd passed that on how good how
well they could remember what they were
taught how quickly they could assimilate
knowledge and you know you're suspending
tells us the first judgment was not on
that well that's very interesting and
what they do have these crazy stories
like Pythagoras would not they were
vegetarians and maybe they were maybe
they were he did he did advise athletes
to eat meat but they always avoided
Pythagoras actually lost his life
because he would not escape across a
bean field for fear of Travis trampling
the beans sounds like a joke to me
there's a story about about him seeing a
dog being beaten and and and then saying
oh don't beat him because that's an old
friend of mine you know that was attempt
to make fun of his idea about met him
psycho psychosis another madman
reincarnation making fun of him it was
may have been the death story it goes
both ways because affinity please and
sort of kinship of all being a unity are
all being that didn't actually have had
to be in the dog a person he knew is
there anybody in the world right they
thought that but but the the story of it
is kind of like
who would say that about a dog being
everybody beats their dogs you know that
you can tell that's that's the kind of
you know like like clouds like clouds by
Aristophanes about Socrates you know
there's a certain amount of joking that
has to be done about these guys because
how else are you going to deal with them
but I love the idea that the well the
square of 4 is 16 okay what is the
triangle is 4 right and yes it is it's
it's 10 looks good
make your little triangle 10 and to make
that triangle no four pebbles they work
good pebbles for pebbles and three
pebbles in 2001 that's ten Devils and
anyway you tilt that triangle I was
going to be that same thing that was
called the two tractors that was one of
their Saint the famous figures no that's
not a Pythagorean triangle like we
usually think about this order to
attract it yeah I think that's
fascinating who thinks is a triangle for
you Danny
say something does the the musical
ratios involve the numbers one two three
and four and they add up to 10 and so 10
was the perfect number now are you
setting it as an example of a way in
which they took what was a very profound
realization about reality about the
universe and the underlying pattern Owen
and then tried to work it out on in
their own way at their level of
understanding and it ended up being and
it reminded me of the way some of the
early various Christians after you know
being maybe Christ's disciples then
tried to work that out in the time and
place right and it's you know it's a big
jump and it doesn't always always work
just know we we always carry with us our
personalities and and we have to try to
fit into our personalities and it's
always a very problematic but I'd also
you know what if you think that I - well
John in that book was that the person
and triangle we usually think of as the
the right triangle and I pop to swear on
my heart often dudes equal sum of the
squares and they are the two sides then
that may very well have not come from
Pythagoras because it was known in
Mesopotamia a thousand years before
before that death we don't know you
might have originated in his culture
because things were lost you know you
didn't necessarily mean if that was it
didn't necessarily means that was been
remembered right but he gets credit for
that he does and I think my guess or my
understanding of what it would be that
that set it off would be that he saw
that was something that could be proved
he somebody else knew this but they just
used it for practical reasons and then
he thought yeah and and and that's a big
change if you look at some of the
examples in Mesopotamia very early it's
pretty clear they actually understood
the meaning and of the proof of it and
but but that was banned the Begley is of
course into a tremendous problem when
they discovered that discovery of
commensurate with the infinite or
ability prize in fact yeah that that you
start to figuring in that and you
suddenly get yourself into what we call
your rational numbers square root ends
oh yeah I'm not too good yeah the square
root of women scared sides like three
and three and you have that up nine and
nine I mean that's squares and then that
makes 18 for the hypothesis potenuse
okay you got 18 is this but what we have
to figure out the square root of 18
right I mean it doesn't exist in the
whole numbers it doesn't exist in fact
if you try to figure it out as a decimal
number you have an infinite number of
decimals that's enough for a crisis of
faith if it's strange what will provoke
a crisis of faith but among the
pythagoreans that was it's often written
but that was that was a big problem hey
the square root of 2 is not a real
number
you know it's bare root of 18
but it does seem think we say that they
came to some good country nothing to do
pebbles and all that but they did in the
next century now and again we don't know
how much was from Pythagoras how much
was him but it was from pythagorean's
same came to the conclusion that the
earth moved that the earth didn't that
day all the planets and the Sun and the
moon all orbit around the central fire
right number one reflects the light is
essential the earth is a sphere that
bounds away of its time
way out of its time but then you want to
thank me and when we say craziness 10
was the perfect number there had to be
tent body they create something called
the counter earth which we can never see
all the idea seemed like they would be
beautiful if that's the way it was you
know instead of just trying to figure it
out but yeah my analogy for that is it's
like the the the the early Greek
philosophers are like the first
amphibians you know when you walk out of
the water you're still wet
you haven't dried off yet and so you
know they're coming out of this milieu
where everything is not done by reason
and suddenly they start using reason but
there's still a lot of water there
dripping down from from well that was
fantastic you thank you so much that was
a wonderful wonderful conversation any
last questions from anyone no okay great
perfect so that was just wonderful it
was a great way to find out about your
work and to all the ideas that have gone
through your head and thanks so much for
clarifying so many of them for the rest
of us and so ends another event at the
Commonwealth Club and it's 100 and 18th
year of enlightened discussion thank you
very much for coming
