[MUSIC PLAYING]
DAVID FEINBERG: Hello.
I'm David, the head
of Google health.
And here's Andy, who's the
co-founder of Headspace,
someone who I got to know
about four or five years ago.
And really, really excited
have this conversation with you
to talk about mindfulness.
So welcome.
ANDY PUDDICOMBE: Thanks, David.
Thanks so much.
It's great.
It's always great
to have you guys.
Thanks for having
me along today.
DAVID FEINBERG: Yeah.
Before we get
started, or as we get
started, or probably most
importantly, as we get started,
I think it's really important
to reflect on what's going on
not only here in the US, but
around the world, around racism
and wanted to check in with
you on that kind of gets
your thoughts.
And we were talking
before we started
how you're dealing with
your two little kids
and trying to explain
what's going on with them.
And my kids are
older and are very
active in protesting
and how my wife
and I are kind of
dealing with them.
But I wanted to give you an
opportunity to talk about this.
ANDY PUDDICOMBE: Yeah.
I mean, just an incredibly
difficult time, incredibly sad
time.
But also, I think as we talked
about before, an inspiring
time.
Because it feels
like there is change.
And change is often--
I mean, we talk a lot
about this in meditation.
In mindfulness, change is
often very uncomfortable.
It's often very challenging.
It's confronting.
It forces us to be vulnerable.
And in being
vulnerable, we create
a space where change can
actually happen and take place.
So I feel, as like
everybody, I'm sure,
conflicted with so many
different emotions.
One a kind of grief and another
of hoping that finally we
will create a
situation collectively
where we do actually learn,
where we do actually listen,
and where we start to share
a great sense of respect
for every single person,
regardless of race and gender
and sexuality.
And I feel like the one
thing that, for me--
meditation may not
seem very active.
And a lot of people have
said during this time,
well, how does meditation even
show up in the midst of this?
And I was always say there is
a passive side to meditation,
where we learn how to have
a calmer and clearer mind
so that we can sort of come at
life from a sort of slightly
different place.
But there's a more
active part, as well.
That quality that
we're training,
that quality of being
present, of being aware,
of being compassionate
in our meditation
is about carrying that
out of the meditation
and into everyday life.
So my hope is that this
kind of inspires people
to take time out to ensure
they are resting themselves.
But also that they apply
those qualities of awareness
and compassion so
that they do show up
and we all make a
difference together.
DAVID FEINBERG: Yeah.
It totally makes sense.
And it's on top of--
I don't think it's
following-- but on top of what
we experience with COVID.
Because I think
COVID's still going on.
We're seeing cases
all around the world.
And that's where
it's really been
this kind of double whammy.
ANDY PUDDICOMBE: Yeah.
And I think I've definitely
felt it here in LA.
Everyone was sort
of trapped inside.
And suddenly,
everyone's outside.
And I think, for so many people,
COVID presented challenges
that they had never faced
before in their lives.
You know?
And the difference I think
is that throughout COVID, it
didn't affect everybody
proportionately.
And yet there was a feeling
in the nature of a pandemic,
perhaps, that we were
all looking at it
through the lens of COVID.
Whereas I think this
particular instance,
there's a lot of
different lenses
that are being looked through.
So it's sometimes more
difficult to find areas of where
everyone's all coming together.
But yeah.
I think that that long
period of time, shut inside,
for a lot of people has really
challenged mental health.
There are a lot of people who
are already vulnerable in terms
of mental health.
But it really came to the
surface during those times.
DAVID FEINBERG: Yeah.
We launched an
anxiety screeners.
So if you were to
Google anxiety disorder,
you get to the right-hand
side of the page,
not where the links are, and
you could do a self-check.
And just have seen
so many folks kind
of struggling with
depression, anxiety, or PTSD
in our frontline [INAUDIBLE].
So let's get into
the meat of this.
And I think one of the best
stories I've ever heard
is yours.
[LAUGHTER]
The story of OK, I'm
going to become a monk.
And then you come back.
And I know you've since had a
co-founder that you worked with
and you launched this thing.
And it wasn't always easy.
And yet now, I think, you're
bringing a lot of compassion
and caring to hundreds
of countries and millions
of people.
Since I've had the privilege
of hearing the story,
will you tell everyone
else the story?
Because it's really cool.
ANDY PUDDICOMBE:
I'd be happy to.
I assumed at the time everyone
was going off to the Himalayas
to become Buddhist monks.
I didn't realize it was any
different from anyone else.
But the context
is a lot of people
ask whether you can teach
children meditation.
I was really lucky.
The short answer
is yes, by the way.
We can talk about that in a bit.
But I was really lucky.
I got introduced to
meditation when I was
10, 11 years old, with my mom.
And it was really useful
in those early sort
of teenage years, which
are never straightforward.
And then, I think,
like a lot of people,
I hit a point in my life where
things were challenging enough
that it caused me to question
the path that I was on.
Sometimes that hits us early in
life, sometimes later in life.
For me, it was a
drunk driver that
crashed into a group of us,
of friends outside a party
one night, killing two people
and injuring 12, 15 others.
And I was really lucky.
I didn't get hit.
But it did make
me begin to think
what was important
in life, what did
I want to do with my
life, what would give me
a feeling of purpose.
And I ran away for it for a
little while, to be honest.
I didn't then go straight
off and become a monk.
I traveled.
I tried to outrun my mind
and to sort of get away
from those thoughts.
And then I realized,
like, wherever I went,
there my mind was.
It kind of followed me around.
So that didn't work.
So I tried the
usual things you try
at those kind of ages,
drink and everything else,
always very sort of
short term success,
but no lasting success.
And I think after--
it probably took
about two years.
I was studying sports
science at university
and really passionate
about physical health.
I was competing in health.
I was working in health.
And on the surface I would
say I was definitely fitter
than I'd ever been.
But I was really
physically healthy.
But inside, my
mind was churning.
I never had a sense of ease.
I felt quite restless and
often very sad, actually.
And so I think it just began,
this percolation inside.
There was no sitting down
and trying to think what
should I do with my life.
Just one afternoon,
becoming a Buddhist monk--
and I am aware how ridiculous
it sounds, by the way.
But one afternoon, I'd been
reading a lot of books.
My girlfriend was a
Buddhist at the time.
And it just made a lot
of sense, rather than
kind of trying to solve the
thinking mind with the thinking
mind, to try and go and
find an environment where
I could practice meditation.
And for me, that had
always been the Himalayas,
the sort of Buddhist
monks and nuns out there.
And yeah, I quit
university that day.
And I took off to the Himalayas.
DAVID FEINBERG: Wow.
And how's the conversation
go with the family?
ANDY PUDDICOMBE: I
mean, you know, you
have children of that age.
I was, what, 21 at the time?
And my mom was, I think,
incredibly proud--
nervous, but proud.
She was a hypnotherapist,
psychotherapist.
Therapy had been
part of our lives
and meditation had
been part of our lives.
So I think a big part
of her was very proud.
My dad thought I was joining
a cult and was terrified.
My sister was just a bit bummed
out that I was fading on her
and going to another country.
And friends, as well--
I think some friends
were very supportive.
And some friends felt
slightly rejected,
kind of why can't you
find happiness with us?
So it took a little while for
all of that to settle down.
But it all found its place.
DAVID FEINBERG: And then
tell us about the experience.
ANDY PUDDICOMBE: So the
experience, and for anyone
thinking about taking
that experience--
I think there's a
honeymoon phase.
And if you've done any sort of
retreat or anything like that,
you'll recognize this.
When you first go there--
and this was way
before social media
and mobile phones
and everything.
But even then, there's
a honeymoon phase
where it just feels
like you're away
from the distraction
of the world.
It feels very peaceful.
It feels very calm, very easy.
And then, after a
week or two, eh, it
starts getting a little
more kind of challenging.
You realize that, oh, wow.
I just have to sit
here with my thoughts.
And my thoughts are the same
thoughts that I had back there.
But now I don't have
any distraction.
Now I don't have anywhere to go.
There's no pub to go to.
There's no friends to call up.
There's not even any escapist
type books to read, you know?
So it's quite challenging.
And I would say, not
in a negative way,
but that is then the path.
It's kind of can we
sit with the mind.
Not having any strong preference
for how the mind behaves,
but instead holding our
seat with awareness,
getting comfortable with
thoughts coming and going,
not getting involved in the
thoughts, not buying into them
or believing that
we are the thoughts.
And over time, I think, that
space starts to increase.
And we tend to sort of
feel less overwhelmed.
The mind starts to
quieten down a little bit.
It doesn't necessarily
always stop, so to speak.
But it slows down.
And for me, the big
unlock, and again, I'll
say this for anyone,
regardless of whether you're
going to go to a
monastery or you're
taking a 10 minute meditation
session, I went with the idea
that I was going
to stop thoughts.
I was going to end thoughts.
I was going to be free from
any kind of negative emotions,
somehow almost escaping
the human realm.
I think in my mind that's
sort of what I thought.
And I discovered it is a very
different thing, actually.
It was quite the opposite.
Rather than disconnecting,
it was reconnecting.
Rather than unplugging,
it was plugging back in.
And it was actually getting
in touch with thoughts
and emotions that
I hadn't previously
recognized or addressed,
getting comfortable with them
to such an extent where they
no longer influenced my mind
or got in the way of
life, allowing me to be
a bit more present, I hope.
DAVID FEINBERG: Yeah.
So it sounds like
actual presence.
Like you just were
living in that moment.
ANDY PUDDICOMBE: Yeah.
And it's interesting.
Because I like to point out that
it's not necessarily stable.
So I think there are these
words, like enlightenment
and stuff get thrown around.
And whilst they may seem
irrelevant to most of us,
kind of just living
everyday life,
I think it's really relevant.
Because we might think of
enlightenment being something
out there, over there, outside
of ourselves, something that we
need to get or obtain
from somewhere else.
And the way it was
described to me,
the way it was taught to me,
the way our experience is more
when we are present,
and undistracted,
that is a moment of
enlightenment right there.
And if we can, over time,
build out that one moment
to many moments, and
then many more moments,
we start to get some
stability and enlightenment.
Doesn't mean that we won't
get thrown off course
once in a while.
Of course we will.
But our kind of
work, if you like,
in mindfulness and
meditation is trying
to create that stability of
present moments in our life.
DAVID FEINBERG: So now tell
us the journey from there
to Santa Monica and
starting an app.
And why aren't you still there?
What happened?
[INAUDIBLE] journey.
ANDY PUDDICOMBE: I
ask myself every day.
No.
I think I feel incredibly
fortunate to one,
have gone there when I was young
enough to be able to do that.
Now I have a wife.
I have children.
I don't think anyone
would be too happy if I
just kind of took off and left.
So it was a very organic--
the whole thing, actually,
has been incredibly organic.
I was in Moscow teaching
meditation, still as a monk.
So I'd gone from the monastery
to teach in a meditation
center.
And I was meeting people
who were feeling stressed,
feeling overwhelmed,
struggling in their job,
struggling in their
relationships,
and struggling to sleep.
And they were coming
for meditation.
They weren't coming to learn
Buddhist kind of rituals,
or tradition, or psychology.
And it really got me thinking.
There was this incredible sort
of thing that anybody could do.
It was timeless.
It was universal in nature.
And yet lots of people
didn't have access to it.
Because they didn't
really know what it was.
It felt very mystical.
It was often sort of within
a religion, or a tradition,
or a culture which they
didn't necessarily understand.
So I just started to think,
what would that look like
if it was presented
in a different way,
in a way that would have made
sense to me when I was younger,
before I'd gone away.
So I went back to the UK.
Initially, I started working
in a clinic, doing one to one.
And then about two years in,
I met my co-founder Rich,
Rich Pierson.
And he didn't come
to the clinic.
We were introduced
through a mutual friend.
He would say this himself.
He was burnt out.
He was working in advertising
in an agency, a very demanding
job, desperate to kind of find
a way to step out of his mind.
And I was looking for a way to
take it outside of the clinic
and to go beyond one to one.
So we just started chatting,
doing a skills swap.
And I'd say within about two
months, maybe three months,
we'd become such
good friends, it
didn't make sense
doing anything else.
And Rich had so many good ideas.
When I first met him, the
very first time we went out,
he said we should do the
Nike class on meditation.
And this was--
I mean apps had launched maybe
five, six months before that.
The iPhone was still
kind of fairly new.
I had no idea what
he was talking about.
I thought it was
a terrible idea.
And so Rich very
patiently kind of
waited another couple of years
while we did events and books
until eventually we
launched the app in 2012.
And yeah, we came out here
to Santa Monica about five,
six years ago now,
six years ago.
And we've just been
incredibly fortunate
to be a part of a conversation
where people are feeling
more confident and more able to
talk about their mental health
and to find tools and services
that help them address
not only the difficulties that
they find in life, but also
to build up a resilience.
So to be used less as an aspirin
and more as a vitamin, as well.
I hope that's where we're
sort of heading towards.
DAVID FEINBERG: Yeah.
So I got so many
questions for you.
You know, when I
was at UCLA about--
this is probably about 15
years ago in child psychiatry,
this faculty member
comes up to me
and says there's this
mindfulness person in San
Francisco.
And should we hire this person
and have her come down to UCLA
and start mindfulness?
And it was particularly
around kids with ADHD.
And I was, like, yeah.
And I met with the woman.
And her biggest concern was what
if she moved from San Francisco
to LA, started this
program, and nobody came.
And the result is there's now a
mindfulness research going on.
Eventually, we did not
have auditoriums big enough
for every one, because
it was [INAUDIBLE]..
Although there's pretty
good research around
some actual treatments
[INAUDIBLE]..
But it was this vitamin.
And every time I'd see her,
I'm, like, hey, remember,
you thought we weren't
going to be busy?
And then it just exploded.
So for folks that aren't really
familiar with what you're
talking about, can you kind of
give us the one on one on it,
so that we set a
baseline of what
is mindfulness,
what is meditation,
what does your app do?
ANDY PUDDICOMBE: So
I definitely think
it's worth separating out
mindfulness from meditation.
Because they get confused a
lot and used interchangeably.
So the way I was taught, the way
I understand mindfulness to be
is the ability to be present,
free from distraction,
with an open, curious,
and kind mind.
And--
DAVID FEINBERG: Will
you repeat that?
It's so good.
[INAUDIBLE]
ANDY PUDDICOMBE: So our
ability to be present,
free from distraction, with an
open, curious and kind mind.
And it sounds like
a nice idea, great.
Sure.
But how do we actually show
up in life and do that?
It's really difficult
to do that when
we're scrolling through
a social media feed,
with everything
going on around us,
or we're caught up
in the news cycle,
or in the middle of our job,
or walking down the street.
And so we kind of need an
exercise where we actually
train in that skill.
And that's meditation.
That's all it is.
We remove ourselves from our
everyday life for long enough--
it doesn't have
to be a long time.
It can be a minute, three
minutes, five minutes,
whatever it might be.
But long enough to gain
familiarity and train
that muscle in not
being distracted,
in being more present,
and in being more present,
being free from
judgment, free from bias.
And as we train in
that in our meditation,
we start to bring that back
into our everyday life.
And we start to realize huh.
Actually, meditation and life,
maybe they're not so separate.
Maybe what we're doing
here is impacting here
and what we're doing
here is impacting there.
And all of a sudden, we start
to actually live mindfulness
rather than seeing meditation
as something separate
from the rest of our life.
DAVID FEINBERG: Yeah.
It becomes second nature.
ANDY PUDDICOMBE: Yeah, exactly.
And I think to
begin with, it does
require a little bit of effort.
There's a little bit of effort
in terms of reminding ourselves
to sort of do that.
But over time, like most
things, like most skills,
there's more of an
effortless quality about it.
And it becomes just part of
how we show up in [INAUDIBLE]..
That was the passion, from
day one with meditation.
It was how do we demystify this?
It seems way easier to talk
about a technique rather than--
mindfulness sometimes
would feel almost
like a philosophy for life.
So it's like, OK, let's
demystify the technique.
If our first 10 years were
about demystifying meditation,
I suspect our next 10 years are
going to be about demystifying
mindfulness and ensuring
people have the tools to bring
those qualities into their
everyday life in a more
tangible and direct
way, perhaps.
DAVID FEINBERG: So if
it's not too personal,
what's your own
personal practice?
ANDY PUDDICOMBE: Yeah.
So it's a little bit
different in so much
as when you leave the
monastery-- so when
you're at the monastery,
you make some commitments.
And those commitments are
for life regardless of
whether you're a monk or not.
So I have a number of
different practices
from my time as a monk.
And most of those are a mixture
of visualizations, recitations.
And then I do what's
called resting awareness.
So I simply sit.
So I don't focus
necessarily on the breath.
Or I don't have an
object of focus.
I tend to just sit and allow the
mind to sort of be with itself.
It's something if
any of you've tried
at the end of the
Headspace sessions,
I'll always say,
at the end, OK, let
go of any focus on the breath.
And just let the mind do
whatever it wants to do.
Now very often, people
struggle to maintain focus when
they're focusing on the breath.
But at the end, when they say,
OK, just let the mind be free.
It's kind of like, huh.
My mind doesn't want
to do anything now.
And that's kind of
what we're beginning
to train in that
part of the exercise,
not necessarily needing
an object to focus,
but allowing the mind to
still maintain that way.
And so I try and do that--
well, I do it every single day.
I try and do it in the mornings.
But with young children,
that can be tricky.
So it often gets pushed
down to lunchtime
or the end of the day.
DAVID FEINBERG: And what
about with your kids?
So I think you said
they're little ones.
How does it play out
in the household?
ANDY PUDDICOMBE: Yeah.
So it's interesting, actually.
People often ask, how do
I get my husband and wife
to meditate, as well as kids.
And I always say, just
never try and force that.
I've been married to my
wife for a long time now.
But we were together, I would
say, for a good couple of years
before she even
tried meditation.
It was definitely something
I never pushed onto her.
And it was something
she chose to do herself.
And with our kids,
we're trying to create
a similar sort of environment,
where we create the framework.
We create the space and
the opportunity to do it.
But we're never going
to force them to do it.
So every day we
try, before bedtime.
It's a great way of
transitioning to bedtime.
Ironically, obviously,
they like using the phone,
because it's a screen.
And you know, it's a thing
for them to press star on
and everything else.
It's a bit weird for me,
because I'm listening to me.
But we flip it over.
And interestingly,
the three-year-old
took to it really quick.
So he was 2 when he started.
He was definitely enjoying
it, a little bit restless.
The five-year-old,
probably not until he
was five did he really
kind of go, OK, yeah,
I'll give it a go.
So I think just being
really flexible with kids
and never think that kids
aren't going to get it.
I mean, kids get it so
much quicker than we do.
They have none of the baggage,
none of the preconceptions
and misconceptions to
get over and get past.
They're just comfortable.
And if you are at home
and you're trying this,
and your kid gets up and starts
running around and screaming
and shouting and
waving their fluffy toy
or whatever it might
be, don't think
they're doing something wrong.
Don't think you're
doing something wrong.
For me, that is just--
that is the moment.
And we let our kids--
sometimes two or three of us
might be lying on the
floor, and the other one
will be running
circles around us.
You just have to let
go of any idea of what
it should be, and just create
the space for them to be quiet
and for you all to spend
some time together.
DAVID FEINBERG: Just to be.
ANDY PUDDICOMBE: Just to be.
DAVID FEINBERG: Beautiful.
So talk about the app.
So what does the app do?
And also, can you
talk-- because I've just
been so impressed by the scale.
If it's not too personal, how
many people are using the app?
And how many countries,
the whole thing?
ANDY PUDDICOMBE:
I mean, I'm always
humbled when talking
about scale when
I'm chatting to Google, David.
Because I mean, you
know, it's all relative.
But yeah.
I mean, look, we
never imagined we'd be
able to reach this many people.
I think we're not far off 70
million people in 190 countries
around the world.
And it's just such a
diverse population.
And again, it comes back to
that timeless, universal--
it's there for anyone
and everyone to learn.
And that's the thing that
excites me, still to this day.
I still love getting
in rooms with people
from lots of
different backgrounds.
And in that moment
when you sit, and you
let go of the
thinking mind, we're
all sharing this common
human connection.
But the app, I mean, right
now, we did something specific
for COVID.
Normally you can download
it, download it for free.
And it's free content
on there, or there's
paid content, where you go into
courses specific for sleep,
and anxiety, and depression,
and many other things.
But we made a
decision during COVID
to make it free
for all teachers,
to make it free for all
health care practitioners,
and to create a collection
called Weathering the Storm,
where it's free content
that anybody can use.
Don't have to pay
for it or anything.
So for anyone interested
in giving it a go,
now would be a good time.
DAVID FEINBERG: A
good time to do it.
ANDY PUDDICOMBE: Yeah.
DAVID FEINBERG: Good.
And let's talk
about the research.
So does this really work?
Well, you know,
where's the proof?
ANDY PUDDICOMBE: Yeah.
I mean, it's
interesting, isn't it?
When I went away, I
didn't have any research.
I didn't know.
And at the time, I didn't care.
And for me, that was fine.
But for a lot of
people, it really
matters whether
we've got hard data.
And I think when we
started Headspace,
there was already a
couple of thousand papers.
But the research was
not in any way rigorous.
I think it just wasn't--
we just hadn't
caught up with it.
It was still kind of new enough
that we weren't quite there.
There was new technology coming
in, as well, with fMRI scanning
and that kind of thing.
So we're now midway
through about 75
different clinical
trials around the world.
25 have been completed.
They're published.
And we can now say
with confidence
that Headspace
can reduce stress,
that it can improve focus,
that it can reduce aggression,
that it can increase
compassion and a whole bunch
of other things.
And I that gives
people confidence.
It allows them to
actually sort of say, OK.
And then we've even
built in controls now,
as well, where I'm doing
guided non-meditations
with a control group.
So we can actually kind of see
it's not just about relaxing.
It's not just about stopping.
It's not just about listening
to someone talking more slowly.
There's something
in the mechanism
of mindfulness itself.
And we probably haven't got
time to go into it in detail.
But just to mention, I found
this really helpful when
I learned about it, this idea of
neuroplasticity in our brains,
kind of not being fixed.
I always used to think that
I would get to a certain age
and then my brain would
just degenerate over time.
And what the research
into mindfulness has shown
is that and especially
with the MRI scanning,
we can see what
happens before, during,
and after meditation, and
during a course of meditation.
And we know that in the same
way that when we go into a gym
and we work a particular muscle,
and it gets more blood flow
and it gets thicker
and stronger, in just
same way, the
cortex in the brain,
responsible for those feelings
of happiness, of well-being,
it receives more blood.
It gets thicker.
It gets stronger.
So we spend more time there.
So even on those
days, when we sit down
and we feel like is anything
really happening when I'm just
following my breath?
I'd be reassured that
the science is strong.
And that, even if
we can't see it,
something's happening up there.
DAVID FEINBERG: Yeah.
So creating the
pathways-- and as
a practitioner with
children for child
and adolescent psychiatry,
it was so amazing.
Because if you could
just make a small change
in their development,
it will just
change the whole
trajectory of their life.
And we used to think
it was just kids,
because the neuroplasticity,
we thought, kind of ended.
And now it's no, grown
ups can do this, too.
And I just think it gives you
this chance to really change
where you're going to be.
Well, it will change
your physiology
and your mental standpoint,
community, and everything.
ANDY PUDDICOMBE: Yeah.
DAVID FEINBERG: And
what about for someone
who's brand new to this?
So it feels creepy.
What do I do [INAUDIBLE]?
What if I don't do it right?
What if I don't breathe
at the right second?
How does that app
take you through that?
ANDY PUDDICOMBE: Yeah.
I get it.
I always think it's a bit
like learning to drive a car
or something, you know?
It's just nice to have someone
sit in the seat next to you.
And that was the idea.
That's why a lot of--
not all of them-- but a lot
of the meditations are guided.
And just so you feel like
you have someone kind of seat
next to you.
And when the mind
does wander off
which inevitably will
wander off kind of there'll
be someone to say, oh, and
hey, if your mind wanders off,
just come back again.
DAVID FEINBERG: Yeah.
ANDY PUDDICOMBE: I cannot tell
you how many emails I get from
people who say, it's crazy.
I can't believe you know
when my mind's wandering off.
Well, no.
That's the human condition.
Our minds just kind of
wander off like that.
So I always think, look, come
at this like an experiment.
Because a lot of people think,
OK, I'll try it one time.
Well, yeah, maybe the
penny will drop first time.
But it won't always
drop first time.
So I always say try it
for 10 days and commit.
It doesn't have to
be even 10 minutes.
You could do 3
minutes, 5 minutes.
Do it a few minutes
a day for 10 days
and see for yourself if
it makes a difference.
And if beforehand
you thought it wasn't
going to make any
difference and it doesn't
make any difference, great.
You've proven
yourself [INAUDIBLE]..
But maybe, life just filled
up for all of us right now
more than ever, just to be
open and interested and curious
to see how things feel
when we sit with them
can be really helpful.
And it may well feel
really alien at first,
like, in the midst of all the
distraction in the business
of life, to sit still free from
that can feel really strange.
And you might find yourself a
bit fidgety, a bit agitated.
And that's all part of it.
It's all normal.
Give it time.
Over a few days, it starts
to feel more normal.
And yeah, most people seem to
find a huge amount of benefit
from it.
DAVID FEINBERG: Yeah.
You could almost make a
case that at this time
it's more needed than ever.
ANDY PUDDICOMBE: Yeah.
I really believe so.
We chatted.
And I was saying, like,
you have this passive--
I don't like to refer
to it as passive.
But just in terms
of differentiating,
you have this element or
quality of meditation,
of mindfulness,
that allows the mind
to be calmer, that
allows us to be clearer,
and to allow us to get
a different perspective.
And then there's just
this more active element
where it's sort of, OK,
we have those qualities.
What is the intention we
put behind those qualities
to go out into the world and
make a positive difference
in our life, in the lives
of the people around us,
and in the communities
around us, as well.
DAVID FEINBERG: Great.
Andy, this is fantastic.
I want to let people know
that they can drop questions
into the YouTube
chat, which Andy
is willing to take questions.
Which is great.
We'll get a different
perspective.
As we're kind of
waiting for the folks
to bring in some
questions, where
do you think you're going next?
How do you continue this?
Is it more just
continue to expand this?
Or do you start
thinking, well, there's
these adjacencies that we
want to get involved with?
ANDY PUDDICOMBE: Yes.
So up to this point, I think
actually for many years
we thought about it specifically
in terms of the consumer
platform and how
we could best of
offer our members that the
best experience possible.
And then we just started
getting businesses, as well,
kind of reaching
out, saying we'd
love this for our employees.
So B2B became a kind of
separate part of the company.
And then health
care-- so we actually
have a chief science officer
and a team of about 15,
20 people in that
team who are working
on how do we actually create and
produce a prescription quality
product?
So right now doctors and
therapists recommend it.
But this would allow doctors
to prescribe it and insurance
companies to pay for it.
So we're kind of working
across all different three
sections of the company.
But as we do that, we're
trying to build out
the content in a way that--
and obviously, this is
very much of this time
and of this moment, that better
reflects the diversity of all
of our communities.
We're a slightly
unusual offering
in so much as, like,
it's not Peloton style.
Where we kind of said,
OK, let's bring together
lots of different
teachers and trainers.
And this was just a guy who
had learned some meditation
and wanted to share that.
And it's just kind of
grown into this thing.
So now we're kind of looking
at this thing going, OK,
but is it really?
Now it's a global thing.
How do we ensure that
it's represented in a way
and presented in a way that
really appeals and speaks
and resonates to every
community around the world.
DAVID FEINBERG: Yeah.
I love the prescription.
When I was at my last
place in Pennsylvania,
we prescribed food to diabetics
and provided them the food,
which had amazing outcomes.
I mean, it was better
than medication.
And that's actually
we got to know you,
because we wanted to be
able to kind of prescribe
this type of treatment.
That's how it all started.
And something about
the prescription
kind of validates it.
And it gets you started.
And then to your point, if you
do it for 10 days and it works,
you're going to keep doing it.
ANDY PUDDICOMBE: Yeah.
So I think if we
built that out and we
add in sort of other
elements of health coaching
as well and actually supplying
coaches alongside that,
I think it starts to look
really different and a really
credible offering in the
medical, health care world.
DAVID FEINBERG: Why don't we go
ahead and take some questions.
[INAUDIBLE] out there.
From Sherby, talks at
Google [INAUDIBLE] to Andy,
are there plans
to bring Headspace
app in any other local
languages apart from English?
ANDY PUDDICOMBE: Yeah, right.
Yes.
So we started this process
about two, 2 and 1/2 years ago.
So it's already
available in German,
in French, in Spanish,
in Brazilian Portuguese.
And we're continuing to look
at sort of which markets
to roll those out into.
But yeah, our mission
is to improve the health
and happiness of the world.
We can't do that if we're
only speaking in English.
So we are thoroughly committed
to making it an international,
sort of global product.
DAVID FEINBERG: Great.
Great question.
Why don't we take another one?
And I think you
can see them, too.
So I don't need to
actually read them for you.
Yeah.
ANDY PUDDICOMBE:
So thanks, Andy.
Headspace has helped me
through a lot of tough moments.
I keep doing the pro
levels over and over again.
I keep discovering new things.
What's the next step?
Thanks, Stan.
So that brings up a really
interesting question in itself.
And I'll make some
suggestions, Stan.
But I think we just we're
so conditioned into thinking
kind of, OK, we do one thing.
And then we do the next thing.
And it's like this, it's
all linear, our learning.
Funny enough, if I think
back over all those years
kind of being away and
sitting, the breath,
and just the simple act of
sitting with the breath,
becomes a really simple
and profound thing.
It's not like you get past it.
It's not like you go,
kind of move beyond it.
It's that it deepens, the
understanding of it changes,
and the experience of
it kind of changes.
And I think, Stan,
you were saying there,
even though you've done
the same thing many times,
you keep learning new things.
And that's because every
time we do that new thing,
our mind is in a
different place.
It's not the same mind
that it was before.
So always looking at meditation
kind of in that context.
But I would, if you'd
done those pro packs,
I would probably look
at Everyday Headspace
and set it to a time length
that you feel is helpful.
And then there's a different
Fresh Teaching every day
and a quote for you to
take away for the day.
Or it's quite OK, as
well, to break that,
as a daily thought pattern.
And if something
comes up in life,
to pull out one of
the [? pacts ?] that
feels most relevant.
So if you're struggling in
a particular aspect of life,
or if you're thinking--
maybe the news, or the
money-- you're thinking,
OK, how can I be more,
I don't know, more open?
Or how can I be more kind?
Or how can I be more gentle?
Finding those [? pacts ?] and
actually sitting with those
and making those part of
those journeys in life.
DAVID FEINBERG: Yeah.
Great advice.
Great question.
ANDY PUDDICOMBE:
From Tim, are there
any lessons you've learned from
the experience of launching
the app that surprised
you, things you
didn't know as a practitioner?
I mean, thanks, Tim.
I mean, everything
has surprised me.
I didn't come in to this, I
didn't leave the monastery
and come into this knowing
anything about business,
anything about technology.
It has been such a
steep learning curve.
And I'm very grateful
and appreciative I've
been joined over the
years by a team who
are able to do all those
things far, far better than me.
I think the one
thing that surprised
me is that it's not easy.
And it's not I went
into it thinking--
I had a very naive kind of--
I think both Rich
and I, I think part
of the reason we've got
on so well over the years,
we just think
everything is possible.
And we even have, at the
entrance way to every office,
we have, in Tibetan,
written by one of the monks
from the monastery, a quote
from one of my teachers.
It says only the
impossible is worth doing.
And I think that reflects
our kind of mentality.
We went into it
thinking, we can do this.
We thought, well, to reach
maybe 10 million people,
maybe we need, I don't
know, maybe 10 people.
OK, but let's never
have more than 10.
OK?
And then we got to 10 people.
It was, like, OK.
We're probably going to
need, like, 20 people.
And the team has grown
and grown over time.
And
I never realized-- meditation
is so simple in some ways.
But in order to
scale it and to make
it available around
the world, it
requires so many
brilliant people
who have to have so many talents
in so many different areas.
And I never imagined what it
would take in terms of a team
to make it happen.
And yeah, I'm just
deeply grateful that I
get to work with
an incredible team
to make who happen
every single day.
DAVID FEINBERG: Yeah.
That's very Googly, the deliver
the impossible kind of thing,
you know?
ANDY PUDDICOMBE: Right.
DAVID FEINBERG: Let's map the
world or something [INAUDIBLE]..
ANDY PUDDICOMBE: Yeah, right.
Yeah.
DAVID FEINBERG: Yeah.
Yeah.
ANDY PUDDICOMBE: Yeah.
Now it's really a monastery.
I love that they think
about it in a similar way.
DAVID FEINBERG: Yeah.
ANDY PUDDICOMBE: What positive
impacts have you seen--
I don't know.
Can everyone else see
these questions, as well?
DAVID FEINBERG: I don't know.
Because we may just do audio.
So I think people can
[INAUDIBLE] you now.
And then we go to audio,
they'll all get to hear them.
ANDY PUDDICOMBE: OK.
This is from Alexa.
What positive
impacts have you seen
in societies where
meditation and Buddhism have
been more deeply embedded?
And how do you see this
influencing American society
as knowledge of
this practice grows?
It's a great question.
I wonder.
I think it will depend on
how we integrate mindfulness
and how we think about it.
There is the risk
of it being made
more of a commercial kind of
type offering, a material type
offering.
Whereas in many of the
cultures and countries where
it's existed in the
past, it's normally
been part of a broader
philosophical or religious
tradition.
So I think it will be
interesting to see.
My main hope is that the
compassion element is not lost.
The thing that I saw immediately
when meditation and mindfulness
started coming across
to the West, was there
was a huge amount of
focus on attention,
on awareness, on not
being distracted.
And those things are
really, really important.
But if you go back to
that original definition
of mindfulness, and that
open, curious, and kind mind,
for me, unless we have that
soft, compassionate, empathetic
mind, there is something
missing in our practice.
And I don't mind saying
myself, for the first few years
of practice, there wasn't
a strong emphasis on that
in the monastery I was in.
And it wasn't until I went to
another monastery, where that
was the only emphasis
that I really
started to understand
the benefits of that
and the implications
of that, as well.
So yes, that's kind of my hope.
But it's hard to make broad
statements about societies
and communities.
And it's interesting,
because there are so
many different countries that
have Buddhism at their heart.
And yet they manifest
so, so differently.
But my big hope is
that we will bring a--
if you think about
that again, that
that definition of mindfulness.
If we could, collectively,
as individuals collectively,
communities, as a nation, if
we could be more present, if we
could be less distracted,
if we could have
a more open, curious, and kind
mind, the implications of that
are so profound.
And it's really tempting
to wait for it to happen.
But it won't happen on its own.
Each and every one of us
has to take a responsibility
to say I'm going
to be part of that.
And when we all
start to do that,
and when it becomes
accessible for everybody,
when it feels relevant for
everybody, where there's
no economic constraints
on people from doing this,
when everybody has access
to it, and everybody
is able to apply
it in a way that
feels relevant to their life,
their culture, their community,
then I think we start to see the
possibility and the potential
for really profound change.
DAVID FEINBERG: Yeah.
Yeah.
It's a real call to action, too.
I mean, it seemed
accessible and it
could have this great impact.
Happy to take more questions.
I think we got a bunch of them.
ANDY PUDDICOMBE: Matthew--
Andy, how do we know we're
progressing with our practice?
I'm 90 days in.
And I'm enjoying it.
But it hasn't gotten easier.
Love that question.
Thanks, Matthew.
So progress in meditation is
a really, really tricky thing.
Because as I said before, the
mind is doing the judging.
It's not that we have
one mind that stays here
and our practice kind
of moves like this,
and the mind here is able
to compare this with that.
Our mind is sort of
moving with the progress.
So it's very, very difficult.
It's also maybe not
that helpful to think
about it in terms of progress.
Because that suggests that
there's a finish line.
There's a timeline.
I would look at this as
a journey of a lifetime.
We're just sitting.
And we're pausing each day
to sit and observe the mind.
So rather than waiting
for something to happen,
rather than thinking
something will happen--
because that changes the
nature and the unfolding
of the meditation--
then there's a little
bit more effort involved,
there's a little bit
of desire involved.
We're waiting for
something in the future
rather than being present with
what's happening right now.
So as much as possible,
and I know it's a big
ask because we're
conditioned that there
will be some kind of
result at the end, as much
as possible to recognize the
result is in this moment.
The moment we let go of
trying to get somewhere or get
something in the
future or the past,
we find ourselves
in the present.
And in that moment, there
is a sense of freedom.
That's the reward.
It's not somewhere else.
It's not in the future.
And to begin with, we
get distracted a lot so.
So we don't get to
experience that that often.
But over time, it happens less.
Sorry, Dave.
DAVID FEINBERG:
It's been totally
great to be present with you.
I just want to
thank, first of all,
the audience for some
great, great questions.
Andy, thank you for
your part in making
the world more
compassionate, more open,
making this more
accessible to people.
This has been a
real, real pleasure.
And I just want to
say how grateful we
are to have been able to
spend this time with you.
And for those of us
who use Headspace,
we spend time with
you all the time.
But it's fun to have
it in real life.
ANDY PUDDICOMBE: Thanks, David.
Thanks for having me on.
Thank you to everyone
for tuning in.
Thank you for the questions.
And again, just as a final,
final call for action,
even if you think you are
not the kind of person who
would benefit from meditation,
just give it a go for 10 days.
See how it feels.
Safe it makes a difference.
And maybe you might
surprise yourself.
DAVID FEINBERG: Thanks, Andy.
Thanks, everyone.
ANDY PUDDICOMBE: Thanks, guys.
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