[Corban Te Aika] Kei ngā mana, kei ngā reo, kei ngā karangatanga maha kua waihape mai ki ōku nei papa ki tēnei o ngā whare e kiīa ana ko Te Whare Wānang o Waitaha, nau mai haere mai, rarau mai.
Ka mihi ka tika ki a Ranginui e tū iho nei, ki a Papatūānuku e takoto ake nei. Nā tā rāua piritahitanga ka puta mai ai ko te whai ao ki te ao mārama
Ka tahuri atu rā ōku whakaaro ki a rātou ngā tini aituā o te wā. Rātou kua hingahinga mai nei, kua hingahinga mai nā i ngā rā, i ngā wiki, i ngā marama kua pahure. otirā Ko te māreikura tērā o Awarua, e Hana, e te hākui, hanatu atu rā.
Tatū mai rā ki tērā o ngā pou haka i roto i a tātou o Waitaha, e Rochelle, haere, haere, whakangaro atu rā.
Koutou kua karangahia e Tahu Kūmea, e Tahu whakairo, haere ki ngā whare poutū o Hine-nui-te-pō.  Hoki ora mai ki a tātou Te Aitanga-a-tiki, trātou kua rauika mai nei i tēnei pō, tēnā koutou kia ora mai rā tātou katoa.
Tēnei rā te reo o Ngāi Tūāhuriri e topa atu nei ki a koutou, haere mai, tauti mai, rarau mai.
Otirā e mihi ana hoki ki ēnei o ngā manukura, o tātou nei kaikōrero e whakatinanahia ana tēnā o ngā whakataukī “ko te manu e kai ana i te miro, nōnā te ngāhere, ko te manu e kai ana i te mātauranga nōnā hoki te ao”
Otirā ka mihi ki a koutou kua rauika mai nei, waihoki ka timata tō tātou nei hui i tēnei o ngā pō ki te karakia, he aha ai?, nā te taumaha o tēnei o ngā kaupapa. Nā konā e tika ana kia kaupare atu i ngā taumaha hārukiruki kua pā mai kia wātea ai tā tātou pō.
Good evening everybody.
On behalf of Ngāi Tuhūāriri and the local hapu,
and on behalf of the wider institution, Te Whare Wānanga o Waitaha, the University of Canterbury,
welcome to this evenings Tauhere UC Connect session.
My job tonight is simply to kick us off with a bit of a karakia.
And part of the reason we are doing the karakia tonight
is due to the heavy nature, or potential heavy nature, of the topic we are going to be discussing tonight.
And so this karakia is not...
... to cast away any heebie-jeebies or anything spiritual like that.
[Laughter]
It's more to ensure that we have a good and robust discussion tonight
but more importantly a safe discussion.
Nā konā ka tahuri atu rā ki ngā mahi karakia, katahi ka tukuna te rākau ki ōku tuāhine e noho nei
So we'll get underway with the karakia.
At the end of that I'll be passing over the microphone
to Tori and Jeanine siting here.
[*Karakia*]
[Jeanine Tamati-Elliffe] Tēnā tātou, tuatahi, e rere kau atu ngā mihi ki a koe e te pou manaaki o Tūāhuriri,  te pā whakawairua i tēnei pō, tēnā koe.
Otirā ki a koutou kua tae mai nei ki te wānanganga i tēnei o ngā kaupapa i te pō nei.
Ka huri nei ki a koutou te tokotoru tapu o te pō tēnā kotuou! Ko wai rā tēnei  tū atu nei, ko Jeanine Tamati-Elliffe tōku ingoa. He uri ahau nō ngā hapū maha o Kai Tahu, engari nō Ruahikihiki, nō Kai Te Pahi.
Waihoki he pānga anō ōku ki Te Ika-a-Māui ki raro i te maunga o Taranaki, ko Te Atiawa, Ngāti Mutunga, Ngāti Tama anō hoki ngā iwi, tēnā tātou.
Kia ora everyone. How's everyone feeling? Good? 
Ready to kick off?
I'm Jeanine, alongside the sister here, Tori. 
We're going to do our very best job
to step into the shoes of Te Maire Tau.
[Laughter]
Much prettier, I'm sure-- well, some of us.
But before we do kick off there are a few things that we just need to get through; housekeeping, first of all.
So, always starting at the top, or the bottom perhaps: wharepaku (bathroom), just outside the room here
to the left-- your left-- and to the right.
If you hear the fire alarm, please just follow-- we've got a whole lot of UC staff here
if you want to put your hand up. 
We've got some directors of traffic.
Follow them, stay in a group.
I'm sure the majority of the Māori in the room know what it's like to stay in a group.
[Laughter]
So follow, like kaihaka (haka performer), out the door.
Stay together and we'll be moving down towards the Arts road, Clyde road carpark.
And follow instructions.
That's really important.
[Laughter]
And if the evacuation is necessary, that assembly point is really important to know.
So, I'm hopeful that I'm pointing in the right direction. I'm terrible with directions. Is that right? East?
Yeah. Kia ora. You need to give me a little wānanga beforehand.
Additionally, if you're needing any support,
particularly outside of this event, on your way trying to find where you parked your car,
we have some UC Help towers.
So we have the Ngā Pourewa o Ngāi Tahu.
And there's thirteen help towers spread throughout the campus, so you'll be able to find your way.
They're lit up, they've got beautiful pictures on them.
Stop and read them-- some beautiful narratives-- on your way out of Te Whare Wānanga o Waitaha.
But you can call UC Security if you need to. 
Tēnā koutou.
I'm just gonna hold it.
[Tori McNoe] Kia ora e hoa ma, nau mai haere mai ki Te Whare Wānanga o Waitaha, e te mana whenua, Ngāi Tūāhuriri tēnā koutou. Ko Tori McNoe tōku ingoa, ko Tarawera te maunga, ko Ngōngōtāhā te awa, ko Te Arawa te waka, ko Te Arawa te iwi
Nō Rotorua ahau, ko Aaron rāua ko Amanda ōku mātua.
What's my role? I've forgotten. 
I'm the president.
Tumuaki = President
Te Rōpū ākonga o Te Whare Wānanga o Waitaha = UCSA
Ngā mihi, kia ora koutou katoa.
So Kia ora everyone! My name is Tori McNoe.
It's a huge pleasure to be here
amongst some pretty powerful people, to say the least.
People. That's what we are.
My job here tonight is alongside Jeanine to be the kaiwhakaako or the MC,
the moderator, whatever you want to call it,
and empower these beautiful people beside me to give some kōrero,
about some pretty heavy topics.
So I think the first thing I want to acknowledge tonight is well done for walking through the door.
It's, on the face of it, pretty confronting.
And thank you for being here.
And secondly to let you know we're going to pop over to our panelists in a minute,
but before that we want to frame this kōrero with a bit of a video.
I'm just going to leave it at that, and we'll talk after it.
[Video]
I consider myself, as you do, a part of an ethnic group.
I just wondered, doesn't it-- you, the fact that you have no answer to that,
could actually be a source of meaning, experience, or knowledge?
The opposite is how I feel about you, Victor.
That you have no comprehension that the world is open to you.
You think that the white man is a block and a dam to your progress, and he is not.
I think you put up that dam and that block yourself, in your regard to the white man.
See I think that's one of the major problems with racism.
I think he did answer the question. As a white man, he doesn't have to think about his position in life,
his place in the world-- the history books tell him, as they are written, that this world is his.
He doesn't have to think about where he goes, what he does.
He doesn't have to think like a white person.
The way the world has been setup, America in particular, white is human.
White is the human being.
Right, that's what a human being is.
They step into a world that is theirs.
Back to the question of what it means to be white. I think what it means to be white, in part,
is that you have the privilege of blaming people of colour for their own victimisation
under white supremacy. I've heard you say that to me,
I've heard you say that to him,
I've heard you say that to him,
I've heard you say it to him,
I've heard you say it to every person of colour in the room who challenged your perception of yourself in the world.
That is part of what it means to be white.
Maybe that's part of the answer. That we feel that the field is wide open and each man can stand on his own.
No, we-- each man does not stand on his own!
Some men stand on other men! And other women!
Light-skinned men. Men from Europe stand on the heads and the hearts
of men, and women, and children of colour! That is...
.. and course, you also stand on the heads of
white women.
[Laughter]
But no...
... it's not a question of every man standing on his own ground.
All of the ground down here on this planet has been taken from almost all of the people of colour on this planet!
Australia was a black continent. Africa was a black continent.
North America was a red continent, South America was a red continent.
You are not standing on your own ground!
You're standing on red ground!
And that's what it means to be white; to say that you're standing on your own ground
and standing on somebody else's!
And then mystify the whole process so it seems like you're not doing that.
[Laughter and murmuring]
[Laughter]
So, as you can see...
... we thought we'd start right at the top.
[Laughter]
And I guess that's part of it for us too,
we've all walked through the door,
we've all come here to contribute to this discussion.
And...
[Noise interrupts]
[Laughter]
We didn't mean to go twice.
And part of the...
... contributing to the conversation is, you know,
it can be comfortable for some and really uncomfortable for others,
and I guess that's probably one of the main reasons why we wanted to begin with that.
And on that note we're going to lead in with our panelists,
and what we're asking is, you know, for you to introduce yourselves,
and, you know, what is it that you're contributing to this conversation tonight,
and what do you hope our audience will take away with them?
Tuatahi, tēnā rā koe Corban, i timata rā i te pō nei me te mana o Tūāhuriri, tēnā koe, tēnā koutou!
He pahī tēnei o te riu o te waka Arai-te-uru. Ko tōku whare ko Tamatea, ko tōku kau whenua ko Horopāpāra e toro atu rā ki te tai o Ōtakou. E mihi ana ki a kouotu ngā wai tapu e rere nei i te nuku o te whenua. Ōku tuākana, ōku tuāhine, ngā rangatira o te pō ngā mihi, nau mai, nau mai, haere mai!
That was a bit of a punch in the face, with intention, really.
Very much that, for those of you who may have watched The Fear of Colour documentary,
it is about confronting racism,
and it is a documentary premised on a group of men talking about racism.
And the reason that I suggested we watch that
is because somewhere in that conversation there is a statement that
that the resolution of pain, and pain for racism,
is actually in the pain.
But in order to have pain
is to have the conversation.
And as is highlighted in that video, tonight's intention is not to be as confrontational as that,
but to talk about and highlight the depth of the issues and the conversation itself.
In that case, and that choice that I suggested,
was because partly Black Lives Matter has given rise to that issue.
And that is very much about black and white.
But it could equally be about
faith,
sex...
... well, not sex, because that's a bit rude.
[Clears throat]
[Laughter]
It could be about interfaith, intersectional issues,
it could be about any prejudice, gender, ethnicity, or otherwise.
And the issues that it raises are about self reflection.
For those of you that don't know me, my name is Darryn Russell
and I have the privilege of working here at the University of Canterbury.
I'm not a big fan of titles, but I have one,
and it is the Assistant Vice-Chancellor of Māori, Pacific and Equity
here at the institution.
I had some questions that I needed to ask about why I'm here-- why I'm contributing.
Obviously good looks.
[Laughter]
Talent and, if you give me a microphone, usually I sing.
[Laughter]
That's the stereotypical way that you might presume me as.
I am probably hoping
that this initiates that challenging conversation.
If anything, from my perspective, the ownership of these issues is not mine.
It's yours.
And it's ours.
And it's particularly those who have chosen not to be here.
And the challenge of how we confront those who choose not to be here
or have an alternative view to openness
is the fundamental issue about why we're here in the first place.
So, alongside my esteemed peers,
it is a pleasure to see you all here.
I hope that tonight's confer--
that tonight's... 
I was going to say "conference",
but more "dialogue" tonight,
is somewhat unsettling.
Not unsettling in the sense of yourself,
but unsettling in the sense of how we disrupt the problem we have.
And the problem we have is systematic; it is penetrated in our community.
It is political,
and it is almost in every hour of every day...
... the way you think, the way you are taught to think.
I was always taken by Martin Luther King who said:
the ultimate measure of a person, or I would argue community,
is not where you stand when things are convenient and comfortable,
but where you choose to stand when they are not.
And you have chosen to be here because they are not.
Black Lives Matter is because they are not.
And it is not about Black Lives Matter in Aotearoa,
but the underpinnings of racism that it confronts.
It is as prevalent here as it is in America.
So welcome to the conversation. It is a delight to see so many faces still smiling.
No one's left yet, that's a good start.
[Laughter]
But I do very much look forward, not just to talking,
but also to hearing, and hopefully responding to questions that people feel comfortable to ask.
And let me just say that if you want to ask, please do.
Because if you don't ask, there won't ever be an answer.
So Kia ora everybody, lovely to see you.
[Applause]
Manawhenua, nei te mihi, Ngāi Tahu, Ngāti Māmoe, Waitaha, Ngāi Tūāhuriri, tēnā koutou.
It's hard for me to do my mihi always because people say "just start in your own language"
and I am not fluent in my own language
so I always feel very odd when I'm asked to speak in something that's supposed to be mine, but it's not,
so I often feel for people as they work their way through something that was taken
and mine wasn't taken in the same way I think people experience language loss here.
I'm the child of political immigrants and an accidental German.
So I...
[Laughter]
I am an accidental German because my parents were in Germany when they could seek asylum.
It is an absolutely accidental nature for me to have that passport.
So... why am I here and what can I contribute?
I used to think I was always the best looking person on a panel,
but clearly it goes to Darryn tonight.
[Laughter]
[Laughter]
We can put it to a vote.
[Laughter]
So...
... I am a lecturer in the School of Educational Studies and Leadership,
in the College of Education, Health and Human Development.
It's a long title and I have to practice every time so I don't forget parts of it.
I hold a PhD in peace and conflict studies, and I wrote a dissertation on racism.
So, I have very strong feelings when people question my expertise on it.
I had an expertise in racism before I wrote a dissertation about it.
[Laughter]
But I felt having a dissertation and a PhD helped me get some credibility.
I think I come to this space slightly differently
because I wasn't always an academic, I don't come from an academic background per se,
and I didn't gain most of the knowledge I have in the university
even though I gained some of it in the university.
So I'll do a whakapapa, not of where my people are from,
but where the people are-- who the people are, who made me think the way I think about this particular conversation.
So I read a fantastic scholar called Edward Said, and I read a book called Orientalism,
and it really shifted how I thought about myself as a person who was from the Middle East.
I read Malcom X's biography-- autobiography-- when I was eighteen years old.
I went to university and came across African philosophers
that were taught in school in these niche pockets,
and then I found through Afro-German activists amazing African American scholars
like bell hooks and Audre Lorde.
So we found the ways to analyse our own existence through these different ways.
And then I read a fantastic book when I was in university
called Decolonizing Methodologies by Linda Tuhiwai Smith,
and I thought this is it.
I'm going to go to this country and the university is going to be different.
[Laughter]
So these are just a few people who have shaped how I think.
And it wasn't until later that I picked up books like Black Skin, White Masks,
The Wretched of the Earth, and particularly The Wretched of the Earth by Frantz Fanon
I wished somebody had given me when I was sixteen years old.
So I come to these conversations with an academic hat,
but also with this understanding that a lot of us come to these conversations in different spaces in different times,
through different people.
I have been involved in anti-racist work since I was seventeen, eighteen years old.
I'm thirty-seven now, so it's twenty years for me.
So I have moments where I am done. 
Where I think "this is it."
I'm not quite sure we are going anywhere with these conversations.
So I'm here because I want these conversations to make a difference,
but I'm also here with this bitterness that comes with it,
because you reach a point where you ask yourself how much of this, that I am putting in there,
is actually going to impact on how I can live this life,
because this is a confronting-- how 
many minutes this was that we watched--
and it is very confronting to all of us.
But it's a very confronting existence, day in and day out.
So, this is, I think, the note that I think I want to end on:
is that we keep in mind that whatever
 happens in this room
is a conversation that happens somewhere else after we leave this room;
is a conversation that happens somewhere when people are at home;
it's a conversation that happens 
when you turn on the TV;
it's a conversation that happens
 when you show up at work.
So some of us don't have the privilege
to go to a place for an hour and a half,
and think about it,
and then not think about it for the rest of the day.
So keep that in mind as I ask you for generosity.
For this space, and for people who share their insights in this space.
Kia ora.
[Applause]
Tēnā anō hoki tātou katoa, tēnei e mihi kau ake rā ki a koutou Ngā Tahu, Ngāi Tūāhuriri, nā koutou tēnei wahanga i whakatūwheratia mai mā tātou katoa nā reira tēnā koe. Otirā ki ngā kaiwhakapāoho o te pō nei tēnā kōrua.
So, my name is Garrick Cooper
I'm a senior lecturer over in Aotahi,
School of Māori Studies.
What Mahdis and I share is the very 
first book that I ever read
was Malcom X's autobiography. 
That was the very first book.
I remember where I was when I read it.
I was sitting on a wharf in Auckland.
I used to work on unloading ships
and we used to have a little bit of downtime
and I used to sit in the shed and read, and that was the very first book I've ever read in my life,
which is quite an achievement
because up until that point I hadn't read one book.
[Laughter]
So I was about nineteen or twenty at the time.
But one of the things that I've noticed in this country,
and I'm sure many of you share this observation,
is that there's a real reluctance to talk about race and racism in this country.
For whatever reason, we're uncomfortable, wish to put our heads in the sand.
We just don't want to go there.
And when I say us, I mean us.
For, not just Pākehā and immigrants in this country, but
new New Zealanders, new Kiwis.
New "Aotearoans", whatever you like to term it.
Also Māori.
We've been quite reluctant in talking about racism in this country.
For whatever reason we've placed our eggs in the basket of the Treaty of Waitangi
in hope that that would fix everything up.
And my-- it's not that I'm criticising the efforts
in terms of having the Treaty
have much greater visibility in our lives.
But rather, as a consequence of that,
 perhaps unintended
we've forgotten about the actual daily realities of racism in this country.
I'll talk a little bit more later on
about the sorts of distinctions between interpersonal acts of-- racist acts.
Which is something, to some extent,
most countries-- civilise-- most countries
have been able to successfully address.
There will be all sorts of incidences, of course,
but generally speaking, if one of us sees an act of racism out on the street,
we'll intervene.
Systemic racism is quite a different matter
and there's been a real unwillingness to address that.
So just in terms of my genealogy--
intellectual genealogy-- I share Frantz Fanon
He's one of the first scholars that I've read at length
who talks about race and colonialism.
[Baby crying in audience]
(Audience member) You've got competition.
[Laughter]
I'm not sure who spoke more eloquently.
[Laughter]
So it's through the work, large of Frantz Fanon,
who, if you haven't read his work,
I would really recommend.
Wretched of the Earth is certainly one of his most well known,
but Black Skin, White Masks is another one particularly pertinent to this conversation this evening.
Now, just platforming off, and just to make a connection
with blackness.
So-- and this will be my last little introductory comment.
So, we can support the BLM movement in the US.
And Māori, Pasifika, immigrant communities to this country
have long been supporters of black civil rights and movements
and been inspired by those movements overseas.
So we can support them.
But it also becomes a catalyst for more local conversations
and that's why we are here, I'm guessing, today.
But this term "blackness."
We most often think of it in terms of African diaspora.
And that's a term which is widely understood as such.
And I'm not denying that at all.
But what I would add to that
is that blackness is also something which arises in context
in relation to whiteness.
And so there are all sorts of blackness right throughout the world,
and it has its own local variation.
So the guy in the documentary talked about "red"
but you would talk with Native Americans and they would talk about blackness as well.
They will pick up this term "red people"
but what they're actually talking about is the same relationship with white people
as people of the African diaspora.
There are sort of regional variations and little differences,
but largely, it's a very similar type of relationship.
And finally...
I don't think it's helpful to have an oppression Olympics.
And that is to sort of have a competition
about who's oppression is greater than another.
We can support each other without having a competition.
And I think those are real diversions from the really important issues,
around the different forms of oppression,
racial oppression, right throughout the world.
So, that's my introductory comments.
Kia ora.
[Applause]
Kia ora e hoa mā.
I just-- I'm blown away by all of you.
I've learnt things that I didn't know about any of you...
...just then. And...
... felt myself, in a way, kind of relate to you
but I'm gonna go off script a little bit.
(Jeanine) Go for it girl.
(Tori) And I'm gonna--
if we're going to have a really
honest conversation here, I want to start that off
with including everyone in this room in that.
So who in this room, just pop your hand up, if you identify as a person of colour.
Wonderful... cool.
Who in this room is under the age of twenty-five?
(Darryn) Ah, no.
[Laughter]
(Jeanine) Self-identified?
(Tori) Yeah, self-- don't worry if you're over the age of twenty-five
I won't make you put your hand up.
Who in this room identifies as part of the queer community?
Cool.
Who in this room has a university degree?
Wow.
Wow, some that don't, though.
And who in this room can own that they've experienced some kind of privilege in their life?
Awesome.
That's really beautiful, ay?
Cool.
And I think the point of me doing that
was actually I wanted to end with: you're all welcome here
and I want you to all feel part of this conversation
because all of those topics, all of those areas, and more
are going to come up as part of this.
But I think the first thing we probably need to unpack
particularly from our panelist's point of view
is
this thing called Black Lives Matter.
It's going around.
We often see it on social media.
It's talked about as a movement. Sometimes, it's talked about as a
as a social conscience.
(Jeanine) Social uprising.
(Tori) Yeah, all of the above.
What is it to you and
what does it mean in the context of Aotearoa?
(Mahdis) I said I wouldn't have notes, and these two said that they wouldn't have notes
and then they both had notes, and then I freaked out.
[Laughter]
So maybe to just contextualise a little bit
I think there have been different iterations
of movements in support of Black Lives
that weren't necessarily called Black Lives Matter,
but when we talk Black Lives Matter we think, you know,
twenty-thirteen, like the hashtag,
and what we now define
as the BLM movement
but it's really important to understand that that is just one iteration
of, in the United States context, black people
speaking up, and defending, and denouncing systematic inequality
and black death in the United States
and I think there have been different variations of that in different contexts, too.
So when Black Lives Matter moved into different places with that term,
it doesn't come as something that is only tied
to the United States. I think it travels
as a form of solidarity.
But it also travels because
the machinery of black death, as I call it,
so it's systems that create vulnerabilities for people
that take years of their life,
that take their health, that take their access to education
for people categorised as black
actually exists around the globe.
So in the German context, there were different movements that had different names
but then with the resurgence of that hashtag
became part of a bigger movement.
And I think it speaks to so many people
beause racism is an issue to so many people.
So I think there is, yes, there is this very
central conversation that ties
the birth of this movement to the United States
started by black women, in particular
queer black women
but then somehow people also have ownership of it
because it doesn't necessarily try to keep it within
the national borders of that country.
So I think that's how I understand it
I think I want to expand a little bit on what we mean when we say "Black Lives Matter."
I do see an important point of what Garrick was saying
is that this is about how terms...
...acquire a meaning,
and the values we attach to those terms.
And it's true that blackness and whiteness,
those are black becomes real in relationship to something it distinguishes itself from.
But I also think that there is an importance to highlight why we say
Black Lives Matter
because black lives have to matter, no only within the context of white supremacy in the United States,
but because we reproduce anti-blackness
in non-black communities too.
So I think that's where this
tension arises between blackness as a political term
and blackness as a political consciousness,
which is really important, I think, for movement building.
But also understanding blackness as a material reality
that comes attached to what you are seen as in the world.
Not only in white communities,
because we can reproduce white supremacy
by people who don't necessarily benefit of it, right?
Like within Middle Eastern communities
or other Asian communities.
So I think those are some of those tensions that we all
have to work through.
So I think it's national, globalised.
We all hold onto it
because it means something to the conversations we want to have,
and sometimes it makes it easier for us to have those conversations
when something as horrific...
... as footage of a man dying on camera reaches us,
which is kind of sad if you realise that it takes that for us to understand that we need to have a conversation.
(Garrick) I sort of addressed that in my opening remarks
but I do want to share just a quick anecdote.
So today Mahdis and I had a quick conversation
for about two and a half hours.
[Laughter]
(Tori) That's quick for you guys.
(Garrick) And during the conversation
one of the things that Mahdis pointed out
was that the influence of black popular culture,
beyond the borders of the US, has been significant
and sort of argued that a lot of us engage with America
through black popular culture.
And it made me think of my own experiences, not necessary of black popular culture,
but my first sort of interaction with my mother when she raised it
is she said racism that is perpetrated upon African Americans
and I was about six or seven at the time
and we were watching Muhammad Ali fight on a Saturday afternoon
which was the time they used to show them.
And my mother would talk about Muhammad Ali
and the racism which African Americans experienced,
and I was about six or seven. I remember the conversation vividly
as a young child at the time
and that was the first sort of interaction with that.
So yes, definitely through the influence of American TV, American popular culture.
And it's spread beyond its own borders and influence.
(Tori) Kia ora.
(Darryn) It's an interesting question.
Black Lives Matter...
... is easy to third-party.
So I think in Aotearoa, or globally beyond the boundaries of the United States,
it's a very easy thing to third-party
as a distasteful, extreme sense of racism.
But sadly the reason it gets traction beyond the American borders
is not because of the action but because, I think,
vast populations who are not the majority.
Who are the other, whether they be colour of skin,
ethnicity, all of those -isms that you can sort of name
suffer that on a daily basis.
And part of the challenge
for us, I think, is
we can often sit back in Aotearoa and say "aren't we lucky."
Aren't we lucky we don't suffer
the more overt racism in Australia,
the killing of George Floyd...
... but actually, everyday on the doorstep of this
university, this city, this island and this nation
the same thing happens to cohorts of our community
and those that are shocked by Black Lives Matter
don't see it within our own.
And I think Black Lives Matter
First, for me anyway--
and this is my story--
really raised its head after the
the tragedy of the 15th of March last year
and no one needs to be reminded of the extremism,
the sadness, shock, and otherwise of that event.
But for me and my team, and a number in my community
the shock that was more apparent amongst us was the commentary that "they are us."
Because on a God damn daily basis...
... that shit happens to me, and my team
with less extremism, less overtness
and less tragedy, but in exactly the same way.
And the community that desires to express it,
which in part is about empathy of
the circumstance, which I would argue we all share,
is completely missed by the same audience.
And I think Black Lives Matter because in part we pick from it
what it is we don't want to be
but we fail to reflect in how we don't contribute to it.
And I think for me that's probably the biggest issue
Tori, if that's an opening gambit of the question.
And I do think we are lucky in Aotearoa
We could have had a very different trajectory and journey as an indigenous population.
But the fundamental issues remain, I think, confronting in our nation.
(Jeanine) So, in listening to that to...
... so, in reflection
as well around Black Lives Matter
and thinking about...
... not necessarily an argument,
but another conversation around "all lives matter."
You know, whats the difference?
Or why are we not thinking about all, as opposed to just the one?
(Darryn) Bugger holding onto this!
[Laughter]
It's very similar to the Black Lives Matter.
It allows us to opt-out of our contribution to racism.
That's fundamentally the issue.
I believe that we all want the same outcome...
... generally as a community. I think there are extremes where people don't want that outcome,
but I generally don't think people wake up
to think they are going to
do harm, disadvantage, or create inequality in the world.
However they may contribute to that
but sadly
systematically, and certainly politically,
we don't achieve that outcome
and we don't... we don't confront that issue.
So, I think...
... the irony for me in that question, Jeanine, is not about
that all lives don't matter.
If I think about how lives matter,
I work in an institution...
... premised on a British colonial system that
was the framing of colonisation
that caused significant damage to the worlds populations of indigenous populations.
But I work in here because all lives do matter
and my interest in challenging
the advantaged or the inequality for the disadvantaged
is because all lives should matter.
And Irihapeti Ramsden is
is a classic example of a Ngāi Tahu wāhine rangatira,
a woman of eminence,
who died not long after completing her thesis,
not that a university has anything to do with credibility.
I share that sentiment.
But come to the University of Canterbury.
[Laughter]
She was also the architect of cultural safety in nursing,
and that development
was to provide a lens to ensure that all nurses
were competent to deliver good outcomes for all patients in the community.
It wasn't about validating a Māori sense of knowledge
and, in the end, you know,
the animus of white politics.
It's prejudiced. It is about ill-will.
It is about policy, process, and power,
and it leverages racism to disadvantage parts of our community.
And if any of you have a doubt that that's the case
then think and look, because media will not be your source.
But Irihapeti's comment and development was: what is to fear from an indigenous population being healthy?
And that was the systematic issue that she was endeavouring to confront.
It wasn't about advantaging Māori, black,
female... I could name anything.
It was about getting equality of service for all people
that nurses engage with, and it's an example, I think,
of how we give into this space, but the reciprocity often isn't returned.
(Jeanine) Kia ora.
(Mahdis) My answer's slightly different. Because...
(Jeanine) Because it can be.
(Mahdis) I think this is also really good to see multiplicity
of approach, and just because we stand here to talk about
anti-racism that our anti-racism looks the same.
I think fundamentally the issue with "all lives matter" is a dislocation from where the problem is.
Somebody once said to me sexism-- the worst thing about sexism and why it works so well--
is that it keeps you from doing your job.
It keeps you from getting done what you're supposed to do
by keeping you busy with all the stuff that you have to deal with
because you're not taken seriously as a woman,
and I actually think, you know, oppression works like that.
So "all lives matter" sounds good in theory
but what "all lives matter" does--
what its effect is in the conversation--
is that you stop looking at what we're thinking about,
so if it's police brutality, if it's the killing of innocent people at the hands of the police, or if its...
... you know, the criminal justice system
and the over-representation of certain populations in prison,
it stops it, and then we have to go back and say "but we really do care about everybody."
And yes, of course we want everybody to thrive, which we do!
So I say it's when we do that
what happens to the conversation?
Because its job is to take your attention and put your attention from where it was to somewhere else.
So I think the problem that I see with "all lives matter"
is not just that we are demonstrating that actually we are
striving towards all lives do matter.
That sentence
doesn't want all lives to matter. That sentence wants you to get distracted
and put your conversation somewhere else.
And I think what that conversation also does is,
one of the biggest problems with conversations on racism is that we always start from scratch.
Every single time.
So conversations
that now are public in the media
particularly around protests that were organised in this country too, but other countries as well,
was that journalists would ask:
is this country "insert country name"-- is this country racist?
So every conversation starts from us saying, oh actually yes it is, and here's why.
And then you move onto the next conversation and you start again from zero.
We can't really progress because every time we speak up
we're put back to the place where we have to point out that the problem is real.
So I think it isn't so much about what the sentence thinks it says.
The problem with the statement is what it does.
(Garrick) So this is a good opportunity for me to slightly segue into sort of my comments around
systemic racism, but just in relation to the "all lives matter" thing,
I think it's a denial of reality. I would...
... and that that reality is that, up until now
black lives haven't mattered.
And to say that all lives matter is an opportunity for us to look away from the obvious,
and that up until now,
until we've had these movements which have been going around for a long time,
this is not a recent phenomenon,
but up until now people haven't listened.
Just in relation to systemic racism
and I connected to what Darryn was talking about in connection to Irihapeti Ramsden's work
and I'm sort of-- for those of you that know me-- I'm slightly critical
of cultural competence and the sort of
what I call in my work cultural thesis
which is the idea that if we just put a little more culture in things, everything's going to be alright.
I'm being a little bit cheeky in how I characterise it,
but I don't agree with that.
And sort of, the Māori engagement with the system is to presume that the system
is good; it's just not delivering for us right now,
and if we just all jump in and pickup a spade and a shovel and help out,
we'll turn it around and everything will be back on and rosy.
But I don't believe that's the case at all.
I don't think the statistics that we're all aware of are aberrations.
My suspicion, and it's a very strong one which makes it into a belief, perhaps,
[Laughter]
Is that the system is working as it intended to.
And I'll give you an example:
just in the language we use to describe our social indices, we talk about
the over-representation of Māori in these statistics,
and Pasifika folk as well,
in these statistics as if there's a bias, right?
So the system didn't intend to treat these people of colour differently,
there's a bias, we just need to pick our shovels up and away we go, it's going to be all good.
But if we use the language of bias
that is to think of the system as inherently good,
but what if your bias is actually a norm?
And we've got lots of evidence to suggest that it's no longer a bias and it's a norm.
And if that's a norm, then that's a system working as it's intended to
and it's a denial of reality to say that the system
is not doing that, and the sort of "all lives matter" moniker is an attempt to deny reality.
And history.
(Tori) Kia ora. Some really, really--
Ah. Mahdis? Did you want to?
(Mahdis) Yes...
... so there's a fantastic Jamaican philosopher
who writes precisely about that, this notion of self-deception:
the problem that we have currently with racism in all the countries I have lived in, and I have lived in a few,
is racism is treated as an aberration from the norm.
It is treated as an exception.
Right? It happens usually in the fringes, and we know who is in the fringes,
and it's assigned to supposedly uneducated, lower classes,
as if somehow if you worked your way up to university you would escape racism.
[Laughter]
Good luck.
So I think when we look at people who have written
from different points, in different points of time about racism,
the ones that kind of-- we come back to-- we keep coming back to
are people who understand that the system-- that this is a systemic issue
it's not a behavioural issue.
So my students just, you know, heard that today in class.
Bias is fundamentally something at the individual level.
If an institution responds to the problem of racism by talking about bias,
it doesn't want to talk about the systemic outcome. It wants to talk about individual people making bad, intentional choices.
And then it kind of couples racism with intent.
And, right? And we need to untangle racism from intent,
and to talk about racism as we've touched;
to impact.
So the impact of it is what matters, not your intention.
There are probably a few people who intend to be racist,
but these days you'd be very hard-pressed to find somebody
who would self-identify as a racist.
[Laughter]
Very, very hard-pressed. You know? Like...
it's almost the worst thing you can call somebody,
so we know now, we can't get people to agree that they intended to do it,
and if we focus on intent we miss all the impact that actually happens in society.
So Charles Mills actually coins, he calls it-- he calls the term epistemic ignorance--
so that people don't see from where they act and from where they are operating,
but he says: it's not an ignorance like you, as a person who's not medically trained, might be ignorant about cancer.
He says, you know, sometimes you go to the doctor and they just know more because they've been trained.
This is not that kind of ignorance.
It's the ignorance that comes with every knowledge you were given
had to create ignorance about something else.
It had to create a silence about something else that you didn't learn.
So he says you're kind of in this constant state of self-deception
because at this point in time after, you know,
in the case of North America five-hundred years of colonisation,
there have been five-hundred iterations, like five-hundred years of iteration of somebody saying "hey this isn't really great"
but we still think that the system is working,
so he says that there's an active process in which we
choose to ignore the information that is presented to us.
So when I say we choose to ignore, I'm not saying that you choose to ignore that racism is real,
but people choose to ignore, to recognise that it's built within the fabric of our society,
so that actually, the norm as we are all existing in a place that's racist
and the exception is when we collectively choose to be anti-racist.
(Tori) Do you have anything to add, Darryn?
(Darryn) Nope, happy.
(Jeanine) Can I jump in just quickly?
(Tori) Yeah.
(Jeanine) I mean this is something that I suppose really does interest me
probably because, well, all of us, we're all here at this institution,
where, us four especially, and Tori, we've both been students but also we work here, we work in the system.
So, I'm kind of looking up to my left there, and I'm looking at things like
bi-cultural competence and confidence.
I'm listening to Garrick talk about cultural competence and its role.
What is the role of our institution, then?
Not necessarily this one on its own, but the educational institutions and unpacking some of this stuff.
Addressing it.
It's hot in your hand.
(Mahdis) Yeah, yeah, I'm like... yay.
[Laughter]
(Jeanine) I guess what I'm asking is: why are you here? Like, why do we all take the job that we've got?
(Mahdis) I think the problem for me is I'm like, where do I go?
[Laughter]
You know, I would love to just grow my own food,
but I'm also a very urban creature, so I don't know if I would survive off the grid.
[Laughter]
I think the university is a particular beast.
Because the university has been complicit in some of the most atrocious crimes committed against people.
Who are colonised people
and the knowledge production from the institution, the university,
has been used to justify the exploitation,
and oppression of other people.
But it's also been a place where we can come and think through some of those ideas
and I'm conflicted, you know. I don't know if there is a job where I would be-- that wouldn't have some of the same
problems. But I do think that the university has always had that job
to talk back to society.
Even if it didn't do so,
supporting indigenous people, or black people, or people of colour,
but it always had the job of reflecting back to society, and having conversations that were...
... maybe not with the norm.
So I think in that sense we have a responsibility.
I also think it makes it easier for us to go through and finish university
if the institution reflects us back.
I can count, I mean not only on one hand, two
professors of colour when I went to university, and one of them was adjunct.
Which here would mean, what is that, when you're like contracted,
so you don't have a permanent position, so you know, you're more precarious.
And it didn't necessarily talk about all the things that were important to me.
So when I went to the United States and I had about twenty percent students of colour,
and they complained about how much racism there was in the university and how much we needed to do,
I did have moments where I thought yes, but we have, we have come
like there has been progress in some of these ways, and I said, you know, you have to understand
that this is big, you at least have each other.
You know, you have each other and that's really, really important.
And Sara Ahmed says institutions
are designed to keep us out, right?
Like you walk... who are the people on those paintings?
Who sits in these institutions?
And they adapt towards you, and I know that this institution doesn't necessarily feel the same way to me
as it feels to some of my colleagues, and that's okay.
But it doesn't mean just because I am at odds with the walls of this institution
that the solution would be for me to leave.
So I think there... there is this part that is hopeful in me that says yes, chip, chip away, chip, chip.
And then there's this other part that's like, no, when?
So I think it's... there's multiple levels
in which we are active.
And... normalisation is important.
It makes it easier for other people to succeed.
And it makes it, for them, like
you can look at somebody and say well I can be in that position.
But if you can never see points of reference for yourself
it's really hard to imagine aspirations
so what I was saying to Garrick earlier in our brief chat
was that the reason why we can emphasise with the black struggle in the United States
is because for many of us brown people
African American culture was what we first saw on TV
before we saw people that were part of our own group.
Okay? I watched, religiously, the Cosby Show when I was young, okay?
I watched The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air, and I identified with those people.
They weren't part of my ethnic group. I'd never been to America.
But there was something about that experience, because that was, you know,
I could see somebody who was a doctor, or a lawyer, or who lived in a mansion in L.A.
while people who looked like me on German television only sold groceries.
Right? So that's what society told me I could be.
While this other culture which came out of the United States was giving me
a different image, and I think that that's why, until today,
so much of what happens in America, it's easy for us to
respond to because it's a universalised experience at this point, for many of us.
(Garrick) So what role can the university play in this?
I mean, absolutely as a critic and conscience of society
universities need to be picking up the difficult issues
and providing spaces for these conversations to be had.
Not necessarily providing answers.
So for the students of mine, I'm really good at raising questions and unsettling things
but I'm not really good at giving them answers, and actually,
sometimes that's intended. It's their job to work it out, and I guess
this conversation itself is an opportunity for us to think about these issues
and try to work through them ourselves.
Now, I understand that there are sort of
particular forces at play within the institution that were uncomfortable
with us having this conversation this evening. And...
... I think, as an institution, we need to be on the front foot of these issues
and taking them out and providing fora like these
to have these difficult conversations.
For far too long, as I said before,
in this country we've stuck our heads in the sand with regards to racism
and we can no longer do that,
and the BLM movement has reminded us
that we can't do that any longer.
And, if you need any more reminding, just read those social indices
and go and spend some time with the people that are doing it hard within our communities
because it's tough out there.
We, as indigenous scholars within the institution, need to remember
that we're very privileged, and whilst these institutions
might teach knowledge that we have issues with,
we're given space within the institution
to ask those difficult questions, to challenge our colleagues,
and I've done this with some sociologists in the newspaper
from colleagues from this institution-- I've challenged them--
but that's our role
and that's the opportunity that universities have to play in this particular issue.
(Jeanine) Kia ora.
(Darryn) Yeah, the critic and conscience, I think I'd share Garrick's view.
There is a freedom...
... and I'll talk about myself as Ngāi Tahu.
So, you know, well I'm actually not Ngāi Tahu.
I hail--
so this is my theory of not telling you much about myself
is because I'm going to try and tell some stories
but I'm a really shit story teller, so I don't think I'll share too many.
[Laughter]
But I hail from a small place called Otakou
and I am, bi-culturally, by default,
the son of a father who was from Otakou
and a mother who was from England.
Bi-culturalism. Voila. Just like that.
[Laughter]
And my challenge with...
... bi-culturalism, or identity,
was from birth til now.
And some of you may think, well,
of course you're challenge by an institution of this nature.
Christ, I'm more challenged by my mother on a daily basis
[Laughter]
in the sense that racism, or perhaps,
non-awareness with critical issues associated with racism
come from her mouth at astonishing rates.
[Laughter]
And I love her to pieces
but when she says: "well what gives the rights for Māori to have water?"
it's like, did I really come out of you?
[Laughter]
(Jeanine) From her waters, actually.
(Darryn) But... from her waters! Yes, Jeanine.
[Laughter]
(Jeanine) Just saying.
(Darryn) But I absolutely adore her because
between her and my father, the imperatives of Māori values
in the care for those who were disadvantaged
was an underpinning that wasn't overt as a "cultural act"
or a "native act"
it was part of what we saw ourselves in a wider collective,
a wider sense of well-being.
Why the university?
Look, I do think that critic and conscience rightfully pointed out
is part of the freedom
to challenge the animus that creates our society.
Whether that's existing, whether that's new,
or whether that's about trying to disrupt
some of those fundamental issues that we've been talking about tonight.
For me it's about if we are to create
and plan a medium to long-term game in Aotearoa.
The validation of indigenous knowledge,
and all knowledge that is non-hierarchical,
power based,
and privileged to white validation and science
is something that we bring as a contribute to all of our graduates.
So, for me, knowledge validation is huge
and the role we can play,
albeit it in an institution of limited power that we exercise,
is still one that I think is fundamental to societal change.
Research to engage in the way we think
and to validate that teaching, is huge,
and the critic and conscience piece for me, personally,
is not just about my challenges with the crown, the state,
the government, the institutions that create this.
As I think about two decades of tribal development,
I am critical and conscious that our tribe
has become a subordinate to the same powers
without intent,
and the placation of guilt in a settlement to the crown
has created our own monster
and not a monster in necessarily a bad way.
I'm not being critical of my own tribe.
it's the reason I do the work I do.
But the closer you get
to the monster, the more the monster looks like you.
And so part of my critic and conscience
is very much about my own identity and what I believe it's for.
Our tribe's belief in the capitalist theory
and how much is enough in terms of creating an economy
is a fundamental challenge that I think is not just for the crown, it is also for ourselves.
If I think about the struggle of eight generations to get a settlement and recognition of our identity...
... and being fundamentally bankrupt in 1996
to now being a diminishing asset base of--
sorry, COVID-19.
[Laughter]
You know, 1.4 billion and almost 60,000 dollars per head
that would have been more-- of our 60,000 members--
that would have been more than generations head ever dreamed
as being a capital worth.
But is that the aim? The closer we get to it, the more we become part of it.
So the critic and conscience, for me is,
in terms of racism,
in terms of development in our society,
isn't just about the challenge of the government.
It is also the challenge of ourselves, and the freedom to do that.
But the responsibility ain't mine.
You know, although I lead some highly talented, much more clever people than myself in the team,
[Laughter]
Not those two.
[Laughter]
(Jeanine) I was going to swear with my hands then.
[Laughter]
(Darryn) The challenge is about
ensuring that my peers
and so many in the audience that I look around and know,
lead that championing for us,
are the change champions more than me.
And the more we can empower that,
the less contribution
and more ability to grow my own food and live out the back
is likely.
[Laughter]
(Tori) And I think like, what you're highlighting here
is when you're talking about the sense of guilt
and this sense of "I don't belong here" or "I don't know my identity"
because I bridge two cultures,
which is becoming more and more common in our societies,
is this idea of imposter syndrome
and that you walk into a space, and it's not yours, but it's not anyone else's
and sometimes I personally know I've felt guilty,
because I have a family who sits at home and no one else made it to university.
And here I am, and I feel like, do I deserve to be here? Should I go home?
Like, what's my role in this?
And I guess with that we, as an executive,
quite often talk... quite often have discussions
about what it's, I guess, like to confront
people who don't know what, I guess, racism would look like
or because it exists in such minute ways,
you could say in New Zealand,
or that you don't notice, or that it's so ingrained in our society,
sometimes you find yourself facing someone who is blatantly, in your eyes, being racist
but they don't know it and they won't listen to you.
So I guess what I'm trying to ask is: when you're trying to have that conversation
with someone who's just not receptive to that, what do you do?
And you may not know the answer to that, but, yeah.
(Darryn) I'll make mine brief. I usually get into a fetal position and cry.
[Laughter]
And then they feel really bad and then I laugh-- no.
[Laughter]
Sorry, I laugh, because that is the daily view
and one of the words I put up there is about utu
and often that is classified or translated
-- and I'm not a language expert, Corban, so don't panic
[Laughter]
-- as revenge, but it's more about the reciprocity perspective
and I think it's an excellent question. I think, for a...
... for a lot of my staff,
part of our work in the reciprocity balance
is to understand racism, to understand our perspective as an indigenous team,
and the role we are carrying out in an institution of this nature.
And I guess, for me,
part of the engagement in reciprocity
is in endeavouring to try and place our piece in the center.
We are really challenged sometimes
in having that reciprocity come back at us.
So...
I know Garrick hates my bi-cultural competence and confidence language
[Laughter]
because he just said it before and I'm trying not to cry.
[Laughter]
Because I often think bi-cultural competence and confidence
is seen as the cultural bit.
There's the native, they do these Māori things, they sing a song.
They rub noses, they have cultural etiquette in certain ways.
Cultural competence has absolutely nothing to do with that.
It's about the self-reflection and acceptance
and understanding of yourself with somebody that has something different
and operates in a different way.
The problem that I have, and I think we've confronted,
is that we go into a room understanding that basis
give-- if you're thinking a fifty-fifty partnership--
give 100% of ourselves into that space.
Maybe get some coming back, and that's unfair to homogenise,
but to a greater extent we don't often get a fifty-fifty start.
We hope to bring forward by giving more of the 100%
and often don't get a response,
and the moment we say this is a partnership,
the moment we feel bad for challenging racism.
So we end up in A, the discomfort of racism,
and then secondly the challenge of racism becomes even worse for us
an it's not our issue to even address.
And so there's part of me that...
... and it's the same in treaty education,
people hear something and are impassioned
and I do strongly encourage that you take that challenge.
Treaty responsiveness, racism and otherwise
is not my issue to address.
It's somebody else's.
But I have to be the owner of challenging it.
I have to understand it and be prepared to discuss it
and to be able to do so in a way that brings the person to the journey,
and I think it's fair to say it is a very difficult situation to manage.
And I think the only that that I can strongly encourage
is that if you don't put into the conversation
you are, by default, contributing to its acceptance.
And that is really hard
with the likes of white fragility as a term that is often used about when it is challenged.
The natural defensiveness that
I'm not racist. I've lived next door to a Māori.
[Laughter]
I know a gay boy.
[Laughter]
You can spin out any of the issues that come with this
because by nature that's not the intention of the individual.
But to be able to draw in the conversation about
why that is challenging for them
starts a journey for themselves.
So I can only encourage, with warning,
it is a very, very difficult path
and it's not always attainable that utopia is achieved.
(Garrick) I won't be very long.
So one of my lines I like to use
is "some of my best friends are scientists."
[Laughter]
(Jeanine) That's awesome.
(Garrick) I just want to respond briefly to Darryn's characterisation of my criticism.
[Laughter]
You will be glad to know, Darryn, I've suffered my criticism.
I do think there is a place for it
and I do see the value in it,
whilst the criticism still stands.
[Laughter]
Just in relation to the question about: to white folk that are not ready, don't want to have that conversation.
You can't force people to have conversations
and I'm not particularly interested in talking to people who don't want to talk about those things.
But what I would add is that there's a really great book.
Most people misconstrue Fanon's work as a critique
of colonialism and racism
and that it speaks to the black experience and only the black experience.
Fanon's book actually has a message for white people,
and there's a really good book
called: Fanon and the Crisis of the European Man
written by, I think...
were you talk about Charles Mills or Lewis Gordon before? The Jamaican.
(Mahdis) I was talking about Charles Mills.
(Garrick) Charles Mills, yeah, because they're both Jamaican.
But Lewis Gordon wrote this book Fanon and the Crisis of the European Man
and what Lewis does in that particular book is he takes--
because Fanon died at the age of 37,
wrote four books before he died
-- but he takes Fanon's work further
and he demonstrates in Fanon, The Crisis of the European Man,
is how racism is dehumanising, not just for people of colour,
but for the white person,
and it's an evasion of their own humanity, he argues.
So there's a message in Fanon for everybody.
That we all come to the table and have those conversations, but we can't force people
to have that conversation if they don't want to.
(Tori) Mmm, that's very good.
(Mahdis) So I do a lot of macro anti-racist work,
so policy, institutional racism,
and I do very little on interpersonal,
and I think, when we think about how do we make somebody
who's just blatantly racist to our face
how much energy do you have that day?
I think all of us know we choose on a daily basis when it is worthwhile saying something
and I think it's different disrupting it.
I think what I heard Darryn say was:
we disrupt it by saying "I don't agree with what you just said."
I think that's a bit offensive.
Like, I do something like that, but I don't necessarily always engage.
Because if I did I'd need to start...
... billing people, you know?
[Laughter]
PhD in racism so if I educate you I'm officially working.
[Laughter]
I feel like Darryn got a lot of jokes and I need to, like, get some laughter.
[Laughter]
I kind of what to bring this to what anti-racism is
like, if we're talking about, we can identify...
... something that's racist. What does it mean to be anti-racist?
And we need to understand that, if we think racism is this structural issue,
then not being racist isn't enough.
Right? Being non-racist isn't enough.
If racism is the very fabric of our society,
not participating in overt racist crimes
isn't enough; it's a bare minimum.
So what does it mean to be anti-racist?
A scholar of mine, that I really like, says:
if race is what brings risk to your life
-- and we bring this back to Black Lives Matter in the United States,
being a young black man walking in the street
because Trayvon Martin was walking home in the street wearing a hoodie
and that was suspicious enough for him to lose his life...
-- is we have to understand that our existence is attached to risk.
It is attached to perpetual suspicion
about whether or not we should walk down this street,
or whether or not the car is ours,
so for us, existing carries a certain risk.
So if we engage in challenging the state in particular, because we're talking about institutional racism,
then that comes with a risk as well,
like of police brutality, but it also comes at a risk of alienation,
losing friends and family. Like, the act of engaging in anti-racist work verbally
and practically comes with a risk.
So for people who are not oppressed under racism
-- so people who benefit from racism-- unless you're willing to take a risk
you're not actively participating in anti-racist work.
So I ask my students always in class, and we haven't gotten to that point yet so spoiler alert
[Laughter]
So what are you willing to give up?
And mind you, I'm not asking for land back just yet.
I'm saying what, on an individual level, are you willing to give up?
Ten dollars? Twenty dollars? A friendship?
Calling out your uncle?
A job? A position, like on a conference panel? What are you willing to give up?
Because this is not a journey that's going to give you lots of rewards.
I mean, we can't sugar coat it. Obviously this is something that we should strive towards.
It's going to give you lots of good friends too because I think you make new friends in these movements.
But fundamentally what is the risk you're willing to take?
If you think you can come into this and there won't be any risk, you're wrong.
Because the moment you post something on Facebook, there is somebody who's going to be upset by what you posted.
Are you willing to take that? And that's just, like, the bare minimum.
When you're in a room, and...
... your best friend says something, and you don't call that out, you know?
Or you do? What happens to that relationship?
Okay? So for us, these relationships are constantly in question.
So anti-racism, for me, is attached to
really being able to take a risk.
Because existing under white supremacy is a risk for people who are racialised.
Because you never know, and we're not talking
-- and I think microaggressions are important because they really make your life very, very hard
--but when we talk about racism
we are talking about people losing, you know,
dying seven to ten years younger than other people. Like, this stuff kills people.
Right? What's the risk we're willing to take collectively?
So I think I have an issue with white fragility.
Because I think it's an important concept. You know, everybody now is reading white fragility.
Who profits now?
Everybody's reading white academic's work saying that you have fragility.
Fragility is true, like, we have fragility, we get uncomfortable,
but if you talk about white fragility
we imagine white folks as these fragile,
delicate beings.
That only if they understood
to not be fragile
that this problem would be resolved, and I don't think that's the case.
I think if we want to talk about racism we need to read the people who have been theorising this stuff,
you know, it's also about who capitalises on this work now?
Who occupies spaces to talk about these issues?
Those are ways in which we reproduce violence
and these are places where we reproduce vulnerabilities for people.
Because there's money, like, money is power too.
So I think there are some conversations around where are we willing to put our money
and where are we willing to put our bodies? Are we willing-- and I'm not asking you to stand in front of a tank
-- but, you know, like, think about what are you willing to give up?
So I think that's something I always ask myself,
and being a person of colour in an indigenous land,
I think that's also an important conversation, because what does that mean for me?
In my relationship, particularly here.
So what does it mean for me to say: black lives matter and I want to be anti-racist in Aotearoa?
What does that mean for me in my relationships to Māori?
Okay, what am I willing to give up? What am I willing to fight for?
What am I going to say to people I might alienate
in that struggle, right?
