ANNOUNCER: PRESENTATION OF
DIALOGUE ON IDAHO PUBLIC
TELEVISION IS MADE POSSIBLE
THROUGH THE GENEROUS SUPPORT OF
THE LAURA MOORE CUNNINGHAM
FOUNDATION, COMMITTED TO
FULFILLING THE MOORE AND BETTIS
FAMILY LEGACY OF BUILDING THE
GREAT STATE OF IDAHO, BY THE
FRIENDS OF IDAHO PUBLIC
TELEVISION, AND BY THE
CORPORATION FOR PUBLIC
BROADCASTING.
JAMAICA KINCAID, AUTHOR: I MEAN,
AT SOME POINT YOU'D THINK THE
PEOPLE WHO ARE RACIST WILL JUST
GET TIRED OF IT.
I MEAN, WE WHO ARE BLACK CAN'T
GET TIRED OF BEING OURSELVES, WE
JUST ARE, WE'RE BLACK, WE DON'T
KNOW WHAT TO DO ABOUT IT.
MARCIA FRANKLIN, HOST: COMING
UP: A DISCUSSION WITH AUTHOR
JAMAICA KINCAID ABOUT RACE,
ABOUT ANGER, ABOUT LITERATURE,
AND ABOUT GARDENING.
THAT'S DIALOGUE, NEXT.
STAY TUNED.
(MUSIC)
FRANKLIN: HELLO AND WELCOME TO
DIALOGUE.
I'M MARCIA FRANKLIN.
MY GUEST TODAY HAS HAD A LIFE
THAT ONE WRITER CALLED A "FAIRY
TALE."
SHE, HOWEVER, MIGHT BEG TO
DIFFER.
JAMAICA KINCAID, WHOSE GIVEN
NAME WAS ELAINE POTTER
RICHARDSON, WAS BORN INTO
POVERTY ON THE CARIBBEAN ISLAND
OF ANTIGUA.
AS A TEEN, HER MOTHER SENT HER
TO NEW YORK TO BE A NANNY.
AN AVID READER AND WRITER,
KINCAID OVERCAME OBSTACLES TO
BECOME A COLUMNIST AND WRITER
FOR "THE NEW YORKER," WHERE SHE
SPENT 20 YEARS.
A COLLECTION OF MORE THAN 70 OF
HER PIECES FOR THE MAGAZINE,
CALLED "TALK STORIES," WAS
PUBLISHED IN 2001.
HER OTHER NONFICTION WORK
INCLUDES THE BOOKS "A SMALL
PLACE," "MY BROTHER," AND "MY
GARDEN BOOK."
KINCAID IS ALSO THE AUTHOR OF
FIVE NOVELS, WHICH INCLUDE
"ANNIE JOHN," "LUCY," AND THE
"AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF MY MOTHER."
KNOWN FOR HER OFTEN BITING
COMMENTARY ON SOCIETY - AND HER
OWN FAMILY - SHE, AS YOU WILL
HEAR, PUSHES BACK AGAINST THAT
CHARACTERIZATION.
I HAD A FAR-RANGING DISCUSSION
WITH KINCAID AT THE 2016 SUN
VALLEY WRITERS' CONFERENCE, A
CONVERSATION THAT TOUCHED ON HER
LIFE, RACE RELATIONS IN AMERICA,
BREXIT, AND GARDENING:
FRANKLIN: WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I
WANT TO WELCOME YOU TO IDAHO.
I WAS READING ONE OF YOUR BOOKS.
IT'S CALLED "MY GARDEN BOOK."
KINCAID: AH.
FRANKLIN: AND I NOTED THAT IDAHO
FEATURES IN IT IN A CHARMING
WAY.
YOU USED TO -- I DON'T KNOW IF
YOU STILL DO -- BUT YOU GOT
RONNIGER'S SEED COMPANY --
KINCAID: RONNIGER, YES,
MR. RONNIGER.
FRANKLIN: -- SEED COMPANY
CATALOG FROM MOYIE SPRINGS.
KINCAID: YES. YES.
IS HE -- ARE THEY STILL IN
BUSINESS?
FRANKLIN: THEY ARE, I LOOKED
THEM UP.
THEY'RE STILL PRODUCING A SEED
CATALOG.
KINCAID: YES.
FRANKLIN: THAT WAS A DELIGHT FOR
YOU TO GET THAT --
KINCAID: OH, IT WAS WONDERFUL.
HIS CATALOG WAS THE BEST
WRITTEN.
I USED TO LOOK FORWARD TO IT.
YOU KNOW, IT JUST CAME IN THIS
LITTLE NEWSPRINT.
AND HE WAS SO INTERESTED IN HIS
POTATOES.
HE LOVED VARIOUS KINDS,
INTRODUCED NEW KINDS, FOUND OLD
ONES.
IT WAS A PLEASURE TO READ.
YOU'D GET IT IN JANUARY, YOU
KNOW, WHEN IT WAS REALLY COLD.
I USED TO LIKE TO SIT IN THE HOT
TUB, A HOT TUB OF WATER AND READ
IT WHILE I DRANK GINGER ALE AND
ATE ORANGES.
IT WAS JUST DELIGHTFUL.
FRANKLIN: YOU JUST CAME BACK
FROM A HIKE, YOURSELF, LOOKING
AT FLOWERS HERE.
KINCAID: YES, YES.
FRANKLIN: THIS IS AN IMPORTANT
PART OF YOUR LIFE, THE GARDENING
AND THE FLOWERS.
KINCAID: YES.
THE FLOWERS -- I MEAN, USUALLY,
YOU KNOW, YOU'RE A GARDENER, AND
YOU BUY PLANTS SOMEWHERE.
BUT I LOVE TO SEE SOME OF THE
PLANTS I'M GROWING IN THE PLACE
THEY ACTUALLY COME FROM.
SO, NOT EVERYTHING I SEE I'M
GROWING, BUT A LOT OF TIMES.
I'VE GONE TO CHINA, I'VE GONE TO
NEPAL TO LOOK FOR SEEDS THAT I
WOULD -- BECOME PLANTS IN MY
GARDEN.
I DO LIKE TO DO THAT.
AND, YOU KNOW, IT HAS THIS OTHER
ADVANTAGE OF HIKING AND SEEING,
YOU KNOW, THE SURFACE OF THE
EARTH IN ALL ITS VAGARIES AND
DIFFERENT FORMATIONS.
YOU KNOW, IT'S JUST -- SO YOU'RE
SORT OF LOOKING AT YOUR GARDEN,
AND THEN YOU'RE LOOKING AT THE
WIDER GARDEN OF THE EARTH AND,
YOU KNOW, THINKING ABOUT THE
CREATION -- YOU KNOW, THE
CREATION STORY.
FRANKLIN: WELL, YOU HAVE A
WONDERFUL QUOTE THAT I'VE READ
AND READ AND READ, AND I'LL READ
OUT LOUD HERE, THAT RELATES TO
THAT.
YOU SAY, "I SHALL NEVER HAVE THE
GARDEN I HAVE IN MY MIND, BUT
THAT, FOR ME, IS THE JOY OF IT.
CERTAIN THINGS CAN NEVER BE
REALIZED AND SO ALL THE MORE
REASON TO ATTEMPT THEM.
A GARDEN NO MATTER HOW GOOD IT
IS MUST NEVER COMPLETELY
SATISFY.
THE WORLD AS WE KNOW IT, AFTER
ALL, BEGAN IN A VERY GOOD
GARDEN, A COMPLETELY SATISFYING
GARDEN, PARADISE.
BUT AFTER A WHILE, THE OWNER AND
THE OCCUPANTS WANTED MORE."
KINCAID: THAT'S - (LAUGHS)
THAT'S THE STORY OF ADAM AND EVE
AND GOD.
THEY WERE THE GARDENERS, AND HE
OWNED THE GARDEN, AND THEY HAD A
DISAGREEMENT, AND HE FIRED THEM.
FRANKLIN: SO WE'RE ALWAYS
LOOKING FOR MORE, AREN'T WE?
KINCAID: YES.
FRANKLIN: AND A LOT OF YOUR
STORIES ARE ABOUT THAT.
IN FACT, IN RESEARCHING YOU, I
FIND THAT YOUR LIFE HAS OFTEN
BEEN ABOUT THAT, WANTING MORE,
YOU KNOW, NEEDING TO SEE THE
WIDER WORLD --
KINCAID: YES.
I THINK THAT THAT'S --
FRANKLIN:-- TO, YOU KNOW -- AND,
YOU KNOW, EVERYBODY'S IDEA OF
PARADISE IS DIFFERENT.
KINCAID: YES.
FRANKLIN: BUT YOU HAD THE SENSE
OF WANTING TO SEE SOMETHING PAST
ANTIGUA --
KINCAID: YES.
FRANKLIN: -- WHERE YOU GREW UP.
KINCAID: THAT'S TRUE.
THAT IS VERY TRUE.
I'M A LITTLE STUNNED THAT YOU
READ ME SO EASILY, SO QUICKLY.
BUT, YES, I -- IT'S NOT WANTING
MORE IN TERMS OF GREED --
FRANKLIN: NO -- YES.
KINCAID: -- BUT I ALWAYS WANT TO
SEE MORE AROUND THE CORNER.
I WAS HIKING DOWN IN THAT
NATIONAL PARK CALLED BIG BEND,
AND THE HIKE GOES AROUND A BEND,
THE CANYON, IT CUTS AROUND A
BEND.
AND I JUST KEPT WANTING TO SEE
MORE AND MORE OF IT UNTIL MY
COMPANIONS HAD TO SAY, YOU KNOW,
"COME BACK, WE HAVE TO GO."
FRANKLIN: SO WHEN YOU THOUGHT
ABOUT, AS A CHILD, THE WIDER
WORLD, READING WAS ONE OF THE
THINGS THAT BROUGHT THAT TO YOU?
KINCAID: YES.
FRANKLIN: I MEAN, YOU'VE ALWAYS
BEEN INTERESTED IN, BOTH READING
AND WRITING, FROM A VERY YOUNG
AGE.
KINCAID: THAT IS TRUE.
I LEARNED TO READ WHEN --
CERTAINLY, BY THE TIME I WAS
THREE-AND-A-HALF I COULD READ
JUST ABOUT ANYTHING YOU PUT IN
FRONT OF ME.
AND I DIDN'T HAVE ENOUGH THINGS
TO READ, SO MY MOTHER SENT ME TO
SCHOOL WHEN I WAS
THREE-AND-A-HALF, BUT YOU COULD
ONLY GO TO SCHOOL WHEN YOU WERE
FIVE.
AND SHE TOLD ME TO SAY, IF THEY
ASKED ME, THAT I'M FIVE.
AND I WOULD CONSIDER THAT THE
BEGINNING OF MY FICTION WRITING,
SAYING I'M ONE THING WHEN I'M
NOT.
BUT IT IS TRUE THAT I READ
OBSESSIVELY EVERYTHING, AND MOST
OF THE THINGS I HAD TO READ CAME
FROM FAR AWAY OR DESCRIBED
SOMETHING FAR AWAY.
SO I ALWAYS WANTED THINGS FROM
FAR AWAY.
FOR INSTANCE, YOU KNOW, I WAS
JUST REMEMBERING THIS, UM, I
CAME IN CONTACT WITH KNOWLEDGE
OF DEATH, OF WHAT, YOU KNOW, A
HUGE PSYCHOLOGICAL DISRUPTION
DEATH IS IN -- ESPECIALLY FOR A
CHILD.
AND I REMEMBER SAYING TO MY
MOTHER, "WHY DON'T WE GO
SOMEPLACE ELSE, SOMEPLACE FAR
AWAY, BECAUSE IT'S CLEAR THAT
PEOPLE DON'T DIE IN THE OTHER
PLACES."
AND SHE LOOKED AT ME WITH THE
GREATEST PITY AND SAID, "THEY
DIE, BUT YOU JUST DON'T HEAR OF
IT."
AND THAT WAS JUST SO STUNNING,
YOU KNOW, THE THINGS I DIDN'T
HEAR OF.
AND SO I SUPPOSE ALL OF THOSE
THINGS CREATED LONGING IN ME FOR
GOING.
FRANKLIN: IT WAS SO INTERESTING
TO ME THAT YOU SAID YOU HAD
MISBEHAVED IN SCHOOL, AND AS A
PUNISHMENT, YOU HAD TO READ
"JANE EYRE" AND -
KINCAID: YES.
FRANKLIN: --BUT THAT IS WAS
TRANSFORMATIVE FOR YOU.
KINCAID: YES.
FRANKLIN: BECAUSE IN, BY READING
THE STORY YOU LEARNED THAT YOU
DON'T HAVE TO LIVE OUT A CERTAIN
PRESCRIBED LIFE.
KINCAID: THAT'S ABSOLUTELY TRUE.
FRANKLIN: YOU KNOW, YOU CAN -
KINCAID: IT'S ABSOLUTELY TRUE.
IN READING THAT - BUT IT'S AN
INTERESTING THING, IN READING
THE BOOK, I DIDN'T LONG TO BE
JANE EYRE.
I LONGED TO BE CHARLOTTE BRONTE,
AND USED TO FOR A LONG TIME.
I THINK MAYBE IT LASTED WAY INTO
MY ADOLESCENCE.
I WOULD PRETEND I WAS CHARLOTTE
BRONTE.
AND I WAS ALWAYS WRITING, BUT
NOTHING, REALLY.
I WROTE IMAGINATIVE, I PRETENDED
I WAS WRITING.
SO I WOULD WRITE IN A BOOK THAT
ALREADY HAD WRITING IN IT.
FRANKLIN: FAST-FORWARDING, YOU
CAME TO THE UNITED STATES AS AN
AU PAIR, IF YOU WANT TO DESCRIBE
IT THAT WAY, A NANNY, A SERVANT
--
KINCAID: A SERVANT I LIKE TO SAY
--
FRANKLIN: A SERVANT.
KINCAID: -- SO IT DOESN'T SOUND
TOO FANCY.
FRANKLIN: -- WHEN YOU WERE 16.
AND, YOU KNOW, I'VE HEARD THE
REST OF THE TRAJECTORY DESCRIBED
AS SOMEWHAT OF A FAIRYTALE LIFE,
THAT YOU ENDED UP WRITING FOR
"THE NEW YORKER."
I'M SURE YOU MIGHT CHOOSE A
DIFFERENT VERBIAGE THAN
"FAIRYTALE" FOR THAT, BUT IT WAS
A VERY --
KINCAID: I WOULD INDEED.
FRANKLIN: -- BUT THERE WERE SOME
VERY LUCKY MOMENTS, AS WELL --
KINCAID: THAT IS TRUE.
FRANKLIN: -- THAT LED YOU TO BE
ABLE TO WRITE FOR "THE NEW
YORKER."
KINCAID: THAT IS TRUE.
OH, THE STORY SEEMS MAGICAL.
IT CERTAINLY IS IMPROBABLE, YOU
KNOW.
A PERSON I OWE ONE OF THOSE
MAGICAL MOMENTS, IMPROBABLE
MOMENTS FOR, I BOLDLY WENT -- I
APPLIED FOR A JOB AT A MAGAZINE
CALLED "MADEMOISELLE," WHICH IS
OUT OF BUSINESS NOW.
AND I LIKE TO THINK IT'S BECAUSE
OF -- THEY'RE OUT OF BUSINESS
BECAUSE OF THE WRONG THEY DID ME
WHEN I WAS A YOUNG PERSON.
THEY -- I DIDN'T GET A JOB THERE
BECAUSE, AS SOMEONE LATER TOLD
ME, "DON'T YOU KNOW THEY DON'T
EMPLOY BLACK GIRLS."
BUT THEN I WENT TO THIS MAGAZINE
CALLED "INGENUE," AND I SAID TO
THEM, "OH, I'D LIKE TO INTERVIEW
GLORIA STEINEM ABOUT WHAT SHE
WAS LIKE WHEN SHE WAS THE AGE OF
THE GIRLS WHO READ THE MAGAZINE.
AND THEY SAID, "GIVE IT A TRY."
SO I CALLED UP "MS.
MAGAZINE" AND SAID, "I'D LIKE TO
SPEAK TO GLORIA STEINEM."
AND SURE ENOUGH, SHE GOT ON THE
PHONE AND GAVE ME AN INTERVIEW.
AND IT WAS SUCH A SUCCESS THAT
THE MAGAZINE TURNED IT INTO A
SERIES OF INTERVIEWS CALLED
"WHEN I WAS 17."
I INTERVIEWED YOKO ONO, JIM
BROWN, ALL THESE PEOPLE, PAM
GRIER.
I WONDER WHERE THOSE INTERVIEWS
ARE, OR WHERE THOSE MAGAZINES
ARE.
ANYWAY, FROM THAT I MET A MAN
NAMED GEORGE W.
S.
TROW, AND HE WAS A WRITER FOR
"THE NEW YORKER," AND HE WOULD
TAKE ME TO ALL THESE EVENTS.
AND ONE DAY I SAID SOMETHING,
AND HE THOUGHT IT WAS SO FUNNY.
AND HE SAID, "WOULD YOU LIKE TO
MEET MR. SHAWN?"
AND I HAD NO IDEA WHO MR. SHAWN
WAS, BUT I SAID YES, AND I MET
MR. SHAWN.
AND MR. SHAWN SAID MAYBE I COULD
WRITE FOR THE MAGAZINE.
I WROTE SOMETHING, AND HE
PUBLISHED IT JUST THE WAY I
WROTE IT.
NOW, IN BETWEEN THOSE SEEMINGLY
MAGICAL EVENTS WERE JUST TEARS
AND TEARS.
AND HUNGER -
FRANKLIN: HUNGER.
KINCAID: -- AND THE LANDLORD
RINGING ME UP IN THE MIDDLE OF
THE NIGHT BECAUSE I HADN'T PAID
THE RENT.
AND I MAY HAVE EVEN, AT ONE
POINT, GOTTEN AN EVICTION
NOTICE.
YOU KNOW, SLEEPING ON PEOPLE'S
COUCHES, JUST ALL SORTS OF --
LONELINESS.
YOU KNOW, I HAD NO FAMILY, I HAD
NO MONEY, I HAD POOR FRIENDS,
FRIENDS WHO WERE JUST AS POOR AS
I WAS.
BUT I -- THE ONE THING I WOULD
SAY THAT I HAD IS THAT I WAS
SORT OF FEARLESS.
I DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO BE AFRAID.
I DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO FAIL,
BECAUSE I DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO
SUCCEED.
SO WHATEVER HAPPENED I JUST SORT
OF WENT ON AND WENT ON AND WENT
ON.
AND SO THAT'S THE IMPROBABILITY.
FRANKLIN: YOU CHANGED YOUR NAME
--
KINCAID: I DID.
FRANKLIN: -- FROM ELAINE POTTER
RICHARDSON --
KINCAID: I DID.
FRANKLIN: -- DO I HAVE THAT
CORRECT?
KINCAID: I DID.
FRANKLIN: -- TO JAMAICA KINCAID,
NOT ANTIGUA KINCAID?
KINCAID: NO, NO.
FRANKLIN: JAMAICA KINCAID.
KINCAID: IT WAS NEVER GOING TO
BE ANTIGUA.
IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN HAVANA.
HAVANA DAVENPORT WAS A NAME.
FRANKLIN: WAS A CONTENDER?
KINCAID: YEAH.
GEORGE TROW USED IT IN ONE OF
HIS STORIES LATER.
HAVANA AND DOMINICA DAVENPORT,
HE MADE UP TWO CHARACTERS.
WHY JAMAICA?
I DON'T REALLY KNOW.
FRANKLIN: THE SOUND IS GOOD,
JA-MAI-CA KINCAID.
KINCAID: THE SOUND IS GOOD.
AND, OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, I HAD
NO IDEA THAT I WOULD BE ASKED
THIS QUESTION.
THE MAIN REASON IS -- WAS, I
DIDN'T WANT MY PARENTS TO KNOW I
WAS WRITING, BECAUSE I WOULD
FAIL AT IT, THEY WOULD LAUGH AT
ME.
I REMEMBER WRITING TO THEM AND
SAYING -- SAYING -- MY MOTHER --
SAYING THAT I WAS IN COLLEGE,
I'D GONE TO COLLEGE IN NEW
HAMPSHIRE, A SCHOOL CALLED
FRANCONIA COLLEGE, AND HOW COLD
IT WAS AND HOW HARD IT WAS.
AND SHE WROTE ME BACK A
BLISTERING CONDEMNATION, YOU
KNOW.
AND I WAS -- I MEAN, YOU KNOW, I
WAS SORT OF TRYING TO DO THAT
IMMIGRANT THING OF BETTERING
YOURSELF.
AND SHE SAID, YOU KNOW, "YOU'RE
ALWAYS TRYING TO DO THINGS YOU
KNOW YOU CAN'T DO."
AND I WAS SURE I WOULD FAIL AT
BEING A WRITER, BUT I WAS GOING
TO DO IT ANYWAY, TRY TO BECOME A
WRITER.
SO I DIDN'T WANT HER TO KNOW.
I DIDN'T WANT THEM TO KNOW AT MY
FAILURE, SO I CHANGED MY NAME.
FRANKLIN: YOU HAVE SAID THAT
WHEN YOU WERE YOUNG YOU STARTED
TO WRITE ABOUT YOUR OWN LIFE,
AND YOU CAME TO SEE THAT THAT
ACT OF WRITING ACTUALLY SAVED
YOUR LIFE.
KINCAID: YES, I THINK THAT
THAT'S QUITE TRUE.
WHAT WOULD I -- YEAH, YEAH.
LOOKING AT MY LIFE AND
UNDERSTANDING HOW IT IS SOMEONE
LIKE ME COME TO BE IN THE WORLD
WITH THE HISTORICAL EVENTS THAT
OCCUR, WHICH I'M PART OF, HOW TO
MAKE SENSE OF THAT SEEMED VERY
IMPORTANT TO ME.
HOW TO MAKE SENSE OF THE FACT
THAT WHEN I WAS A CHILD I HAD TO
MEMORIZE A POEM ABOUT A FLOWER I
MIGHT NEVER HAVE SEEN AND LEARN
TO ADMIRE AND LOVE THE PEOPLE
WHO BROUGHT ME THE ERASURE OF MY
MEMORY OF MYSELF.
AND BY "MYSELF," NOT MY
INDIVIDUAL SELF, BUT THE SELVES
OF ALL THE PEOPLE I COME FROM.
FRANKLIN: YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT
THE BRITISH?
KINCAID: THE BRITISH, YES.
FRANKLIN: YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT
--
KINCAID: I'M VERY HAPPY ABOUT
BREXIT, YES.
LITTLE ENGLAND.
IT CAN'T BE LITTLE ENOUGH FOR
ME.
[LAUGHTER.] YES.
THEY CAN'T SUFFER ENOUGH.
THERE'S SUCH AN IRONY THAT
PEOPLE WHO HAD GONE ALL OVER THE
WORLD AND CLOBBERED PEOPLE OVER
THE HEAD AND TRIED TO FORCE THEM
TO BE ENGLISH DIDN'T LIKE PEOPLE
COMING FROM EASTERN EUROPE AND
LIVING IN ENGLAND.
I THINK SOMETHING THAT MOST OF
THE WORLD DOESN'T UNDERSTAND
ABOUT THE ENGLISH IS THAT THEY
NEVER CONSIDERED EASTERN
EUROPEANS WHITE PEOPLE OR PEOPLE
FROM SPAIN OR PEOPLE FROM ITALY,
PEOPLE FROM GREECE.
FRANKLIN: SO THE CONSTRICTION OF
BRITAIN, ITS SELF-CONSTRICTION,
IS OF DELIGHT TO YOU?
KINCAID: OH, IT'S
SELF-DESTRUCTION, YES, IS A --
WELL, I DON'T LIKE TO SEE PEOPLE
SUFFER, BUT, REALLY, THE THING
CALLED BRITISH-NESS, OH, IT
CAN'T GO SOON ENOUGH FOR ME.
I ABSOLUTELY DISLIKE IT.
FRANKLIN: YOUR WRITING WAS
CHALLENGING FOR ME TO READ AT
TIMES, BUT THAT'S THE POINT,
ISN'T IT?
I MEAN, IT SHOULDN'T BE --
KINCAID: YES.
FRANKLIN: -- HOWEVER WE WANT TO
DESCRIBE IT, A PIECE OF CAKE OR
--
KINCAID: A PIECE OF CAKE.
FRANKLIN: -- OR A WALK IN THE
PARK OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
IT REQUIRES ATTENTION.
KINCAID: WELL, YES.
I MEAN, I SUPPOSE I WRITE WITH A
CERTAIN AMOUNT OF INFLUENCE ON
ME FROM WRITING THAT I READ WHEN
I CAME INTO ASSOCIATION WITH
LITERATURE.
I TOOK IT SERIOUSLY.
I DIDN'T JUST READ DICKENS.
I NEVER READ -- JUST READ
ANYTHING.
ANY BOOK THAT IS JUST SOMETHING
I CAN READ, I DON'T READ IT AT
ALL, I JUST -- I WANT TO -- I
WANT TO SEE SOME THINKING.
AND MY BOOKS, YEAH, THEY -- THE
ONES THAT ARE EASY TO READ -
"ANNIE JOHN," I THINK "LUCY" IS
EASY TO READ -- THEY'RE EASY TO
READ, BUT THEY'RE FULL OF
UNDERCURRENTS OF MEANING.
FRANKLIN: YES, YES.
KINCAID: YOU KNOW, "LUCY" REALLY
REFERS TO LUCIFER IN "PARADISE
LOST."
"ANNIE JOHN" REFERS TO MOTHER
COUNTRY AND COLONY.
THEY'RE VERY LAYERED.
BUT AS I MOVED AWAY FROM THEM,
FROM THAT KIND OF WRITING, THE
LAST BOOK I WROTE I CAN SEE IT'S
VERY DIFFICULT FOR PEOPLE TO
READ.
BUT, YOU KNOW, I'M READING THE
"DEATH OF SOCRATES" AGAIN, AND
I'M READING "PHAEDO," AND IT'S
DIFFICULT.
IT'S VERY DIFFICULT.
ANYTHING WORTH READING IS
DIFFICULT TO READ.
A BOOK IS NOT -- I MEAN, YOU --
THERE'S A CERTAIN KIND OF
WRITING YOU CAN SEE THE WRITER
HAS THE LITTLE POST-ITS ON THE
WALL.
YOU KNOW, THE PLOT GOES THIS WAY
AND THAT WAY.
AND THAT'S FINE.
I MEAN, I CAN'T DO IT MYSELF, SO
I WON'T SPEAK OF IT IN A BAD
WAY, BUT I HAVE NO INTEREST AT
ALL IN DOING THAT.
I WANT TO THINK ABOUT -- I WANT
TO THINK ABOUT WRITING WHEN I'M
WRITING.
THE WRITING I'M DOING, I WANT TO
REALLY, YOU KNOW, THINK ABOUT
EVERY PART OF IT.
AND THAT IS MY WAY.
FRANKLIN: AND I'VE SEEN OR READ
OR SEEN YOU SAY THAT THAT MOST
RECENT BOOK WAS A SPECTACULAR
FAILURE IN SOME WAYS, BUT THAT
WASN'T THE POINT, EITHER, THE
POINT WAS TO TRY.
KINCAID: YEAH.
FRANKLIN: AND THAT YOU'RE
WRITING FOR YOURSELF, YOU KNOW
--
KINCAID: YEAH.
FRANKLIN: -- YOU'RE NOT WRITING
--
KINCAID: WELL, IT WAS A
SPECTACULAR FAILURE IN WHAT I
WAS TRYING TO DO.
NEVER MIND THAT ALMOST NO ONE --
EVEN THE POSITIVE REVIEWS DIDN'T
REALLY UNDERSTAND IT.
IT'S -- AND THIS IS, YOU KNOW,
PART OF THE PROBLEM OF NOT BEING
WHITE -- A WHITE MAN.
WE CAN NOW SAY THESE THINGS
FREELY.
UM...MY WORK IS REGARDED AS, YOU
KNOW -- IT DOESN'T -- "IT'S
SLOPPY," "SHE DOESN'T DO THIS,"
"SHE DOESN'T DO THAT."
NOW, I'M NOT SAYING I'M A
GENIUS, BUT I'M NOT A SLOPPY
WRITER.
MY WRITER, MY WRITING IS VERY
PRECISE.
BUT THERE IS A WAY OF JUDGING
WHAT I WRITE BECAUSE I, AS A
BLACK WOMAN, SHOULD WRITE ABOUT
SLAVERY OR THE OVERBURDENED
BLACK WOMAN.
AND I, ACTUALLY, LOVE -- I
SHOULDN'T SAY "I LOVE" -- HOW
SHOULD I PUT IT -- I WANT THERE
TO BE MORE UNDERSTANDING OF
SLAVERY, BUT I DON'T WISH TO
WRITE ABOUT IT IN THAT
PARTICULAR WAY.
I WILL WRITE ABOUT IT IN A WAY
THAT IS NOT EXPECTED.
BUT IT SHOULD BE REGARDED WITH
SOME CARE AND RESPECT AND NOT
DISMISSED.
FRANKLIN: WELL, SO MUCH OF WHAT
INTRIGUES ME ABOUT YOUR WORK, AS
WELL, IS THE DUALITY OF HATE AND
LOVE.
NOW, PEOPLE HAVE POINTED TO YOUR
WORK AND HAVE SAID, YOU KNOW,
IT'S TOO ANGRY.
KINCAID: HAS ANYONE EVER CALLED
NORMAN MAILER'S WORK ANGRY?
PHILIP ROTH'S WORK ANGRY?
YOU WOULDN'T CALL JOHN UPDIKE'S
WORK ANGRY, BECAUSE IT ISN'T.
BUT THERE ISN'T A MAN WHO HAS
WRITTEN A BOOK THAT'S "TOO
ANGRY."
IT'S SOMETHING THAT HAPPENS ALL
THE TIME TO ME, MY WORK IS
CONSIDERED ANGRY.
IT'S NOT ANGRY AT ALL.
IT'S VERY FRANK, AND IT'S
TRUTHFUL.
THERE ISN'T A LINE, THERE ISN'T
ANYTHING YOU CAN SAY, "THAT
NEVER HAPPENED."
THE WORLD -- IT'S THE SORT OF
THING THAT I COULD WRITE A
SENTENCE THAT SAYS, "THE EARTH
IS ROUND," AND, "OH, SHE'S VERY
ANGRY, 'THE EARTH IS ROUND.'
"
FRANKLIN: WELL, YOU DID WRITE
ABOUT HATING YOUR MOTHER AND,
YOU KNOW, I MEAN, SO THAT'S
PROBABLY --
KINCAID: WHO DOESN'T HATE THEIR
MOTHER?
EVERYBODY HATES THEIR MOTHER.
SOME OF US WON'T SAY IT.
BUT IT'S NOT ALL WE FEEL ABOUT
OUR MOTHER, BUT -- AND IT'S NOT
ALL I FEEL ABOUT MY MOTHER.
I'VE WRITTEN ABOUT "THE" MOTHER.
I'VE WRITTEN THINGS ABOUT --
THERE MUST BE SOME MOMENT IN
EVERYBODY'S DAY WHERE THEY JUST
THINK, "OH," ABOUT THEIR MOTHER.
BUT I JUST HAVE THE COURAGE TO
SAY IT.
ANGER IS NOT A CRITICISM, IT'S,
YOU KNOW, SOMETHING YOU -- THE
WORK MIGHT MAKE YOU FEEL.
BUT THE PERSON -- BUT YOU CAN'T
SAY THAT THE WORK IS ANGRY.
IT ONLY MAKES YOU FEEL ANGRY,
BUT YOU FEEL THAT THE WORK IS --
BUT THE WORK ITSELF ISN'T ANGRY;
IT'S SOMETHING ELSE.
THERE'S ALL SORTS OF WAYS TO
LOOK AT A WORK OF ART AND
CRITICIZE IT OR SAY SOMETHING
ABOUT IT, BUT ANGER JUST ISN'T
REALLY THE WORD.
I MEAN, I'M SORRY, DO WE LOOK AT
"STARRY NIGHT" OF VAN GOGH - HE
CUT OFF HIS EAR.
CUTTING OFF YOUR EAR, I MEAN,
THAT'S PRETTY -- WHAT'S THAT
ABOUT?
I MEAN, IS HE ANGRY?
YOU KNOW, WE DON'T SAY VAN GOGH
IS SO ANGRY AT HIMSELF HE CUT
OFF HIS EAR.
WE LOOK FOR WHAT'S WRONG WITH
HIM, AND WE'RE SYMPATHETIC.
I MEAN --
FRANKLIN: IS IT BECAUSE YOU'RE
BLACK, BECAUSE YOU'RE A WOMAN --
KINCAID: IT'S ANGRY, AND SO,
THEREFORE, WE'LL HAVE NOTHING
MORE TO DO WITH IT.
THERE'S NO REASON TO LOOK AT
THIS IN -- IN ANY OTHER WAY,
IT'S ANGRY, AND IT'S DONE, AND
GOODBYE.
FRANKLIN: WHAT DID YOU MEAN WHEN
YOU SAID THAT YOU FEEL IT'S YOUR
DUTY TO MAKE EVERYONE A LITTLE
LESS HAPPY?
KINCAID: WELL, YES.
I MEAN, IF YOU WANT TO MAKE
PEOPLE HAPPY, YOU CAN MAKE HELLO
KITTY, BUT THAT'S NOT THE -- YOU
KNOW, I MEAN, IT'S ALL SOMETHING
TO MAKE YOU THINK.
YOU OUGHT TO BE -- IT'S THE
LITTLE THING IN THE OYSTER, THE
LITTLE IRRITANT, YOU KNOW.
FRANKLIN: THAT MAKES THE PEARL?
KINCAID: YES, YES.
FRANKLIN: UM, WHAT IS HAPPENING,
IN YOUR VIEW, RIGHT NOW, IN OUR
COUNTRY?
DO YOU THINK IT'S WORSE?
WHAT'S GOING ON?
KINCAID: I DON'T THINK IT'S
WORSE, BUT, UM, THERE'S NOTHING
WRONG THAT CAN'T BE MADE RIGHT,
JUST STOP BEING RACIST, STOP
KILLING BLACK PEOPLE, STOP EVERY
TIME YOU SEE A BLACK PERSON
THINKING THEY'RE GOING DO
SOMETHING.
I MEAN, ACTUALLY, IT'S EVERY
TIME YOU SEE A WHITE PERSON YOU
SHOULD BE AFRAID BECAUSE BLACK
PEOPLE JUST DON'T HAVE THE TOOLS
TO DO TERRIBLE THINGS.
THEY DON'T -- THEY NEVER HAD THE
TOOLS TO BUILD OVENS AND THROW
PEOPLE IN THEM.
THEY NEVER HAD THE TOOLS TO DROP
A BOMB ON -- TWO ATOM BOMBS ON A
COUNTRY.
THEY'RE QUITE INNOCENT IN
RELATION TO CRIMES PEOPLE HAVE
COMMITTED.
THEY'RE INNOCENT.
THEY JUST WANT TO GO ABOUT THEIR
LIVES AND LIVE IN A NICE HOUSE.
IT SEEMS TO ME THEY WANT TO BE
HUMAN BEINGS.
THAT'S THE REALLY INTERESTING
THING TO ME ABOUT ALL OF THIS,
THAT THERE ISN'T ANY -- THE
UNDERSTANDING THAT ALL A BLACK
PERSON WOULD LIKE TO DO IS TO
GET OUT OF BED IN THE MORNING
AND WONDER, "WHO AM I TODAY, HOW
-- HOW DO I ARRANGE?"
-- YOU KNOW, TO HAVE AN
EXISTENTIAL CRISIS, THE CRISIS
OF WHAT IS A HUMAN BEING, TO
REFLECT ON YOUR OWN INDIVIDUAL
UNIQUENESS, NOT TO BE WORRIED
ABOUT THE STUPID COLOR OF YOUR
SKIN, WHICH IS SOMETHING YOU
COULDN'T HELP.
YOU KNOW, YOU CAN'T REALLY HELP
IT.
REALLY, I THINK IF WE WERE TO
JUST LOOK AT ALL BLACK PEOPLE AS
JUST SORT OF THE MOST INNOCENT
PEOPLE IN THE ENTIRE COUNTRY, IF
NOT THE FACE OF THE EARTH.
THEY NEVER DID ANYTHING.
THEY DIDN'T ENSLAVE THEMSELVES
AND PUT THEMSELVES ON SHIPS AND
DRAG THEMSELVES, INDIVIDUALLY,
ACROSS THE OCEAN AND WORK
THEMSELVES, FORCE THEMSELVES,
BEAT THEMSELVES TO SHREDS TO
MAKE COTTON, TO MAKE SUGAR, TO
MAKE THE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION.
THEY'VE DONE, REALLY, NOTHING
EXCEPT BE.
AND THEY SHOULD JUST BE
REGARDED, FROM NOW ON, FROM THIS
VERY MOMENT, WITH UTTER GRACE.
JUST, YOU KNOW, "WOW, THESE ARE
THE MOST INNOCENT PEOPLE IN THE
WORLD."
FRANKLIN: IT SOUNDS LIKE I HEARD
A KERNEL OF OPTIMISM, THOUGH, IN
WHAT YOU SAID.
KINCAID: OH, WELL, WHAT ELSE CAN
THERE BE BUT OPTIMISM?
EVEN AT THE DARKEST MOMENT, YOU
KNOW, WHAT ELSE CAN THERE BE BUT
OPTIMISM?
BECAUSE WHAT I MEAN AT SOME
POINT YOU'D THINK THE PEOPLE WHO
ARE RACIST WILL JUST GET TIRED
OF IT.
I MEAN, WE CAN'T -- WE WHO ARE
BLACK CAN'T GET TIRED OF BEING
OURSELVES, WE JUST ARE, WE'RE
BLACK, WE DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO
ABOUT IT.
FRANKLIN: IT'S ALL ABOUT TRYING
TO FIGURE OUT --
KINCAID: YES.
FRANKLIN: -- WHO WE ARE, ISN'T
IT?
KINCAID: WHO YOU ARE, YES.
AND THE FREEDOM YOU MIGHT FIND
IN THAT, YOU KNOW, CONSTANT
SEARCH FOR -- YEAH, THE MYSTERY
OF WHO YOU ARE.
THAT NO LAW CAN DEFINE.
NO LAW CAN CONFER ANY GRANDNESS
OR LESS-NESS ON WHO YOU ARE.
BUT I THINK THAT THAT'S WORTH
THINKING ABOUT AND WORTH
EXPLORING.
AND IT'S NOT ONLY AN INTERNAL
QUESTION, BECAUSE THE EXTERNAL
WORLD HELPS DEFINE WHO YOU ARE.
AND SO ALL OF THOSE THINGS I
LIKE TO EXAMINE, I LIKE TO LOOK
AT AND QUESTION AND FIND NO
ANSWER.
I THINK MORE THAN ANYTHING THE
QUESTION MUST BE ASKED.
AND THERE ISN'T AN ANSWER.
SOMETIMES THE ANSWER IS THE
QUESTION.
NOT TO SOUND TOO BUDDHIST AND
TOO 1960S OR SOMETHING, THOUGH I
DO LOVE HIPPIES.
I LIVE IN VERMONT.
FRANKLIN: THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR
TAKING THE TIME --
KINCAID: THANK YOU FOR HAVING
ME.
FRANKLIN: -- TO TALK WITH US.
I HOPE YOU'LL COME BACK.
KINCAID: YOU MUST ASK ME BACK.
THIS IS GREAT FUN.
THANK YOU.
FRANKLIN: YOU'VE BEEN LISTENING
TO AUTHOR JAMAICA KINCAID.
OUR CONVERSATION WAS TAPED AT
THE 2016 SUN VALLEY WRITERS'
CONFERENCE.
OUR THANKS TO THE ORGANIZERS OF
THAT EVENT FOR ALLOWING US TO
TALK TO SOME OF THEIR INSIGHTFUL
SPEAKERS.
FOR MORE INFORMATION, PLEASE
CHECK OUT THE DIALOGUE WEBSITE.
JUST GO TO IDAHOPTV.ORG AND
CLICK ON "DIALOGUE.
FOR "DIALOGUE," I'M MARCIA
FRANKLIN.
THANKS FOR TUNING IN.
(MUSIC)
ANNOUNCER: PRESENTATION OF
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THROUGH THE GENEROUS SUPPORT OF
THE LAURA MOORE CUNNINGHAM
FOUNDATION, COMMITTED TO
FULFILLING THE MOORE AND BETTIS
FAMILY LEGACY OF BUILDING THE
GREAT STATE OF IDAHO, BY THE
FRIENDS OF IDAHO PUBLIC
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