I'm delighted to have this
inaugural lecture, reflect
on "Women's Rights
in a Man's World--"
and as you know by the topic--
"Adjudicating, Interpreting, and
Enforcing Sharia Law in Islam."
We'll be joined in the
conversation with Judge Kholoud
Al-Faqih.
Hauwa Ibrahim, and Leila Ahmed.
Sharia, in Arabic, means "path."
And sharia, or Islamic,
law guides all aspects
of Muslim life, including
daily routines, familial,
and religious obligations,
and financial dealings.
It's derived primarily from
the Quran, and the Sunnah,
the sayings, practices, and
teachings of the prophet
Muhammad.
Precedence and analogy
applied by Muslim scholars
are used to address
new laws, new issues.
The consensus of
the Muslim community
also plays a critical
role in defining
the theological manual.
And we have seen, especially
in the last couple
of years with the Arab
Springs being manifested
in a number of regions around
the world, the extent to which
women's rights has surfaced
anew as a contentious feature
of Sharia law.
And so the work
that Judge Kholoud
has done in adjudicating
women's rights and the context
of that law is particularly
intriguing to us today.
Kholoud Al-Faqih graduated
with honors with a law degree
from the University
of Jerusalem in 1999.
She received a master's
degree in private law
from the same
university in 2005.
In 2001, she received her
license to practice law
and worked as a lawyer at
the Women's Center for Legal
Aid and Counseling,
an organization
dedicated to assisting
battered women.
From 2003 to 2008, she
worked for the defense
of battered women, where she
gained extensive litigation
experience.
In 2008, she passed two
competitive judicial exams
in Ramallah, excelling
in Islamic law portions.
One year later, she was
appointed as a judge
in the sharia court
of Ramallah, making
her the first female
sharia judge in Palestine.
Sudan is the only
other Muslim majority
country that has appointed women
as judges in sharia courts.
This makes Judge Al-Faqih's
appointment truly historic.
And she is breaking
down walls and creating
a space for all of us.
Thank you so much,
Judge Kholoud.
Our second speaker
for this afternoon--
we'll have a panel
conversation--
is Leila Ahmed, who is by no
means a stranger to this place
called Harvard Divinity School.
She came here in 1999
as the first professor
of women's study in religion--
that was two years
after I graduated--
I was just a little
bit too early--
and was appointed to the
Victor S. Thomas chair in 2003.
Prior to her appointment
at the Divinity School,
Leila was professor of Women's
Studies and Near Eastern
studies at the University
of Massachusetts in Amherst.
While at the University
of Massachusetts,
she was the director of
the Women's Studies program
from 1992 to 1995 and the
director of the Near Eastern
studies program from '91 to '92.
Her latest book, A Quiet
Revolution The Veil's
Resurgence from
Middle East to America
has been widely acclaimed and,
actually just recently garnered
her $100,000--
I don't even know the
name of the award.
All I heard was $100,000.
[LAUGHTER]
She's also known for
her most pivotal work--
Women and Gender in Islam--
the Historical Roots
of a Modern Debate.
Her current research
and writing interests
include Islam and
gender in America
and issues of gender, race,
and class in the Middle
East in the late colonial era.
Hauwa Ibrahim is
also no stranger
to the Divinity School.
She is a senior partner
at ARIES law firm.
She has worked as
a lead attorney
with a team devoted to
the cause of human rights
for women in Nigeria
and has won a number
of precedent-setting cases
before Islamic sharia courts.
Ibrahim has been
a visiting scholar
at Saint Louis University School
of Law and Stonehill College,
a world fellow at Yale
University, a Radcliffe Fellow,
and a fellow at both
the Human Rights Program
and Islamic legal programs
at Harvard University.
While a Radcliffe
Fellow, Ibrahim
adopted an
interdisciplinary approach
to delve into the theoretical
foundations of shariah law
and examine how they've
influenced legal practice which
has, in turn, affected the human
rights of women in West Africa.
Her research led to the
publication of the book
Practicing Sharia
Law, Seven Strategies
For Achieving Justice
in Sharia Courts.
It was published by the
American Bar Association
in 2012, which will
be disseminated
to legal practitioners and
judges who have responsibility
for interpreting sharia law.
As we come today,
our format is going
to be very straightforward.
We're going to have
opening comments
by Judge Kholoud for
approximately 15 minutes.
Then, we'll invite Professor
Ahmed and Ms. Ibrahim
to respond to the judge and
engage in a conversation
between the three of them.
Finally, we'll
expand the dialogue
to include each one of you
and conclude at about 6:30.
I want to ask that you would
do at least a couple of things
in preparation.
One, I want you to actually
take a look at your cell phone.
I know you think
you turned it off.
You remember putting
it on vibrate.
But if you would
just take one final
look to be sure that it's
either silent or on vibrate.
I can't tell you how
often God has spoken
in church from the cell phones.
So we're going to ask God to
speak in other ways today.
This event is also being filmed
for a documentary film entitled
Three Judges which
will profile Kholoud.
And so you, again, will
see the camera going--
if you have any
questions or concerns
or prefer not to be included
in that documentary,
please see Carly following
the program today.
And that's Carly
right back there.
Are you ready to have a
stimulating conversation
that we could all engage in?
Let's prepare to
receive Judge Kholoud.
[APPLAUSE]
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
At the beginning, I would
like to really thank you
all for coming here.
And I cannot find the proper
words to express my gratitude
to be in a great
institution like Harvard.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
And through this
institution, I hope
that my words will reach
all the women in the world
and will reach each women
whose voices are not heard.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
I want to introduce
myself first.
I am Kholoud Al-Faqih.
I am a Palestinian refugee
from a refugee family
who took refuge after 1948.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
My family took refuge to
a village called Qatanna.
Qatanna is a village
in East Jerusalem.
And I am one of 11
members of my family.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
After I graduated
from high school,
I went to Al-Quds
University to study law,
where I graduated
from there in honor.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
Based on the law
there in Palestine,
to become a judge or a lawyer--
to become a lawyer, you need
to practice for two years
before you become a lawyer.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
When I went to Ramallah,
I was surprised to see
the lack of women in the sharia
law and the sharia courts.
Palestinian women were
involved in the civic law
and the civic court since '82,
but I was really surprised
to notice the lack of women
with this sharia court
especially, because this court
specialized with a lot of areas
in women's lives in Palestine.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So the sharia law specialized
in too many issues
and the family--
like the marriage, the divorce,
the [INAUDIBLE],, and before,
as she was saying--
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So my first question
was, why women were not
part of this law.
I believe that God created
us with the ability
to think and to think
about these things.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
And should not stand in
front of closed doors.
These doors are
closed by reason.
I should think about
what's going on around me
and find solutions.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
And this reason pushed
me, encouraged me,
to do research on this topic.
One part of this research
was based on the sharia,
and the other part
was based on the law.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So the theme of
this research was,
why women cannot hold a
position in the sharia law since
the Ottoman time until recent.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So I was surprised by
witnessing this surprise
and this dream that was--
I used to hold all the time.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So based on the law, there is
nothing that says that women
cannot become judges
in Shariah law.
And based on the Jordanian law
that was issued in '72, there
is no area in the law that says
that women cannot be a judge.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
The text laws cleared that there
shouldn't be any discrimination
based on the gender.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So within the Islamic thought
and the school of thought
in Islam, it was a very
interesting area for me,
where I realized that you
know some schools of thought
and some scholars
agreed and some scholars
disagreed on women's
participation
in the sharia law.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So a big question was, for me,
Islamic scholars like Ibn Hazm,
Ibn Jarir issued
that, but we go--
Abu Hanifa school of thought--
it was a surprise for me,
Abu Hanifa school of thought
allows me to become a judge.
But when it comes to
Ibn Hazm and Ibn Jarir,
they do not allow
me as a woman--
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So the scholars, even Ibn Hazm,
Ibn Jarir and [INAUDIBLE],,
they allowed women
to become involved
in the Shariah and
the sharia law.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So why the habit was set from
the beginning to go after
the school of thought of the
scholars who do not allow women
to become a part of the sharia
law-- and us in Palestine,
we follow the school
of thought of Hanafi,
which allows us to, by sharia--
which allows us to become part
of the sharia law as women.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So I believe in this idea.
And I want to pursue this idea.
So I took it and I went to the
high supreme court in Ramallah
to talk to them about it.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So [INAUDIBLE] was the justice
back then in the supreme court.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So when I went to him, he
asked me, what do you want?
And she told him, I
only want to become--
I just want to become
a sharia law judge.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So his action-- he
didn't say any word--
his reaction was, you know--
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So I talked to him about
the research I have done.
And he told me, well, give
me time to think about it,
and I'll get back to you.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
I told him, OK,
but I promised you
I will become a
sharia law judge.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So in 2001 and 2002,
I became a lawyer,
and I started practicing law.
And I also was involved in
the Center for Legal Aid
and Consoling.
It's an organization that
defends women's rights.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So this experience
that extended into 2003
gave me an
extraordinary experience
in law and practicing law.
And I wrote 1,500 cases
for women in the court.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
Sorry, this was from
2003 until 2008.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
Then, after that, I
earned my master's degree
in the international private
law from Al-Quds University.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So this dream of becoming
a judge in the Sharia law
did not come from nowhere.
I planted the seed, and I
had to take care of this seed
until it grew up.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So I used to take advantage
of every single meeting,
every conference,
to say it loudly,
I want to become a
sharia law judge.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So during these
events, I managed
to change their
mentality-- to have
and accept this
[INAUDIBLE],, a woman
to become a sharia law judge.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
Especially in front of the male
judges, which the idea for them
was absolutely rejected.
[INAUDIBLE]
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So I believed back then that
this [INAUDIBLE] and this idea
was based on some economical
or social status and benefits
for these men and did not
believe in it [INAUDIBLE]..
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
In 2004 and 2005, there was
a lot of judicial competition
back then.
And I had a cesarean back
then, so I couldn't participate
in this competition.
However, I went
to the judge and I
revisited him, the same
judge, and I gave him, again,
my file and my study.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So he told me, I'm sorry.
It's passed.
It's too late.
You're too late.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So I told him, I know.
I'm a law person.
I respect law.
But I promise you,
next competition, I
will be here knocking
on your door again.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So in 2008, there was
the second competition.
So I participated in this.
I ran for this competition.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
I was among 45
other participants,
and I was the only
woman in this crowd.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So I passed that exam
with a high degree.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So the number was good
enough to run this job--
to hire people for this job.
So they issued
another competition
to qualify this gap.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So I talked to my friend,
[INAUDIBLE],, and I told her,
you should come, and
you should participate
in this competition.
We'll be like two women.
We'll encourage each other.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So at the same exam, she
told me, no, no, not now.
Maybe I will run for
this in five years.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
In the second exam,
I told her that's it.
The door's open.
You have to come
and participate,
and she did, and she passed.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
And in January 2009, the
government issued the--
president issued that
for Hulud and her friend
to be the first two women
judges of the sharia law to be--
to hold this position
in the Middle East,
not only in Palestine.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So this dream was on paper,
but it was like a birth for us.
After that, after we
fulfilled our dream,
the struggle started.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
There are a lot of
challenges that we face.
Some of these
challenges are sad,
but other challenges were funny.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So [INAUDIBLE],, with the highest
score with the high court,
the Judge [INAUDIBLE],, when she
went to him the first time--
and so after she was
appointed to this position,
she went to him to his office
and he told her, OK, now, you
become a judge.
What should I dress you?
I dress the men with
these hoods, with bib--
robes now.
What should we dress you with?
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
I told him, don't worry.
I'll think of something.
[LAUGHTER]
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So I thought and I found
out that me and [INAUDIBLE],,
were the only two women who
were like-- who studied law.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So I thought that
the robe for law,
for lawyers, presented
us as law persons.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
And I thought and
I thought about it,
and I thought like, you
know, we're Palestinians.
We're Palestinians.
There's no difference
among us in Palestine.
We are under the one
umbrella of representation
of being Palestinians.
And I thought of this idea of
putting the Palestinian flag
on top of my robe.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
And this way, Judge
Halud created the costume
for women's judge.
It's become the way the women's
judges dress in the court.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So I'm going to start with
the funny, funny experiences
and challenges, and we'll
save the sad experiences
and challenges for the last.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So in August 2009, I gave
birth for my fourth child.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So I went to Judge
[INAUDIBLE] and told him
I need my maternity leave.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
This is the first time
I have a judge knocking
at my door asking
for maternity leave.
[LAUGHTER]
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
And I told him not
only that, I need
an hour to breastfeed my child
when I come back to work.
[LAUGHTER]
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So there's a lot of things that
we ran into within this field,
but we learn to past these
obstacles and make new steps
and move forward.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
The obstacles that we
faced as a society--
the society did not accept us.
Because the society
was raised on the idea
that this position should
be only for religious males.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
And this person has
to revere and have
a special [INAUDIBLE] religious
people, but not a woman.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
What was even more
painful for me
that I was rejected
more by women than men.
So I was accepted more
by men than women there.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So in the beginning
of my career,
I remember a woman
came to the courts.
You know, we are like
several judges in the court.
So a woman came to the court--
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
She came to the room and she
looked in the room around
and she found only
me and she said,
I don't want a woman to
issue a judge for me.
I need a man.
So she changed the
rule after that.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So I believe this is
a wrong social status,
that we were raised in the
wrong social principles.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
This attitude, this mentality
was not taken or extended
from neither the
law or the religion.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So the second challenge
was for me was a need
to practice an old law,
which is a Jordanian law that
was issued in '76.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
And it's much, much
older than me, this law.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So of course, I went back to
[INAUDIBLE],, Judge [INAUDIBLE],,
and I told him, I don't know
what to do with this law.
This law is bigger than me.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
It's older than me, sorry.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So he told her,
well, I rely on you.
You can fix these problems.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
And she told the
Judge [INAUDIBLE],,
what you're doing
to me right now
it is like as if you are
bringing a very highly
qualified professional
diver, and you
send him to go deep in
the ocean without oxygen.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So this also created
inside me the motive
to work with this law, to
change it, to add on it,
to make it beneficial for the
Palestinian society in terms
of law and in terms of
Islamic law as well.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So another challenge-- we
faced a lot of problems
with the male judges.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So I used to hear some rumor
among the male judges saying
that, that's it.
We need to get rid of her.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So what made me more
insistent, and it gave me
the power to stay there because
there was this game of bets
and competitions among the male
judges one judge would say,
oh, I'll give her two weeks.
No, no, no, I'll
give her six weeks.
No, I'll give her,
like, six months,
and she will get tired
of here and leave.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
I continued, and
I am still here.
[LAUGHTER]
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
In 2009, I was chose the
most influential woman
in the Islamic world.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
Person.
In 2009, I was chosen to be
the most influential person
in the world.
[APPLAUSE]
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
In 2012, I had a
big surprise for me.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
First is the success
of a Palestinian leader
to gain membership in
the United Nations.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
Two days or three
days later, Alhurra TV
called me from Dubai.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
They asked her for an interview,
and she asked them about what.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So they told her, you're chosen
to be one of among 100 women,
the most influential
and powerful women
in the Arab world.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
And she was the 10th
among these 100 women.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So at that moment, I had very
mixed feelings at that moment.
It's hard to describe it, but
I had a very mixed feelings.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So I thought most of the
Palestinian leadership are men.
And they succeeded to raise
the Palestinian case again
internationally.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
And I am, as a woman, who
started with a small dream,
I succeeded again to
raise the Palestinian gaze
international-wise.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]-- One minute.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So I had message.
Since I took this job, I
usually send this message.
Wherever I go, I
send this message.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
This message is to all
women in the world.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
As women, we have to look at
ourselves from all directions,
from all mirrors--
not from a broken mirror.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
And if we look at ourselves as
women through a broken mirror,
we'll see ourselves as
parts, broken parts,
and parts doesn't mean anything.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
And if we look at ourselves as
women from a complete mirror,
we'll see a complete human
being with full rights that
is no difference
between this human being
as a woman and the man.
In this world, together,
we can succeed.
And that's it.
[LAUGHTER]
[APPLAUSE]
Wow.
Thank you so much.
I know Eila and
Hauwa, each of you
have some questions that you
are ready to pose right now.
OK.
This is a very
tough act to follow.
Actually, what we've
learned and that I
didn't know before, you
were not only appointed
to a judge of sharia
court, you created the job.
You did the research.
So you are really a tremendous
pioneer in many more senses
than just the [INAUDIBLE].
I have many questions around
the whole legal system.
And just to kind of extend
the discussion into--
I mean, we are in a
time of great debate
around the whole Sharia, its
effect on women, and so on.
So let me just say a few
things around that debate.
Even here in America, I don't
know if you've heard that--
do you need to translate?
She needs me to translate.
OK.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So-- I actually lost my thought.
Sorry.
It's all right.
Yes, so even here
in America, there
are some states that
have banned sharia law,
as you may have heard.
I don't know if
she's heard that.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
Yes, she knows that.
And of course, there's
huge political change
in the Middle East, which makes
the sharia law issue, actually,
again, a very hot issue.
So I'm just going to
raise a couple of points.
So in connection with
the issue of women,
you were the first
woman in the Middle East
to be a judge of sharia court.
As far as I know, that
is absolutely true.
But do you want to translate,
or should I just keep going?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
This is like North Africa--
like Egypt and Morocco.
There are women who
are [INAUDIBLE]..
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
She said, actually, there's
a difference between what's
in the Palestinian [INAUDIBLE].
So you were first
in the Sharia court,
and that's perfectly true.
But I think the audience
needs to know that, too.
Which is, in fact, there
are women judges in Tunisia,
Egypt Morocco, Egypt--
and Tunisia.
And Tunisia.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
I'm going to explain that.
So there are women judges.
In fact, currently the vice
president of the Supreme Court
[INAUDIBLE]--
I forget what it's called.
It's the Supreme
Constitutional Court
of Egypt, which is the
highest court in the land.
A woman is the vice
president of that in Egypt.
The difference is-- and why
you're correct in saying that
you're the first Sharia judge--
they do not have Sharia.
They abolished the Sharia court.
So it's important to know that.
And they've created
law, a single law,
as she said, from what
they call civil law, which
is European-based,
mainly French-based law
and amalgamated that with
ideas from the Sharia.
And so it's important to know
that for a number of reasons.
One is to tell you
that we are in a very
complicated legal territory
layered historically.
And I'm sure that's
true of Palestine.
She made references to the
law in Jordan and so on.
So there have been
those sort of layers,
and we have to be aware of that.
And it's important to know that
Egypt and Tunisia abolished
Sharia courts in the
mid-1950s as part
of the whole agenda
of modernization
and partly to improve
the condition of women.
So they modified various things.
And among the things that
they did-- for instance,
Tunisia introduced a
law banning polygamy.
And they claimed-- and
probably quite correctly--
that this was actually
based on sharia--
on minority opinions
within Sharia,
but nevertheless on sharia.
So in other words, they
did creatively use sharia
in ways that were
positive for women.
And prior to Egypt and
Tunisia banning sharia courts,
of course, Turkey in the
mid 20s have altogether
abolished Islamic
law and borrowed
wholesale the Swiss legal code.
And all of this was part
of the project of changing
the condition of society--
part of the era when
they were pursuing
modernization and improvement
of the condition of women.
So obviously, now, we are
in a very different time,
and it's quite possible with
the new elections that have
happened in Egypt and Tunisia--
the new parliaments-- it
may be that we might well
see the reinstitution
of sharia law.
And in the Egyptian
context, Tunisian contexts,
I think many, many, many people,
including devout Muslims, men,
and women do not want to
see a Sharia law brought
back or Sharia court, even
if they are headed by women.
So this is in no
way to take away
from her extraordinary
achievement.
I mean, she gives me hope
for Palestine and for women.
But do be aware that it's part
of a very complicated and very
ferocious debate that's
going on in the Middle East
now as to whether to
reinstitute Sharia in countries
where it's been banned or not.
So all of these
issues are really
part of the broader discussion.
Would you like to comment?
OK.
While Tunisia and Egypt
are banning sharia,
Nigeria is taking on sharia.
So maybe you know a little
bit about the country.
We have about 70 to
80 million Muslims.
And in 1999, we had the
new sharia introduced.
The new sharia has a
criminal aspect to it.
So five offenses, major five
offenses were introduced.
They include amputation
when you steal,
stoning to death if you commit
adultery, flogging publicly 100
if you drink alcohol.
If you commit robbery,
they call it Hirabah.
They crucify you.
And then if you change
religion, you commit apostasy,
and you can also be stoned.
So this is the new offenses.
But I sort of want
to say thank you
so much for this amazing talk.
And certain things I came
out from what you said,
and I just want to pick on them.
The good book, for some
of you that read them,
says, seek and ye shall find.
Act, and it shall
be given unto you.
Knock, and the
door will be open.
And that is what you did!
[LAUGHTER]
[INAUDIBLE] a
powerful message here.
We should never relent to seek.
I thought that was
my take-home point.
The second take-home point
I got from what you said,
which is, I guess very powerful
is ability to turn challenges
into opportunities.
There was nothing stopping you.
You had a plan.
You had a plan A, plan B,
plan C, and a fallback,
and an exit strategy
if it came up.
And I thought that was powerful
to always turn challenges
into opportunity.
And the last thing I wanted to
say from what you mentioned,
which I thought was
powerful, was this ability
never to give up.
Never give up.
And Gloria was saying
at the beginning,
this could be the beginning
of a revolution here.
And yes, we are onboard.
Let me just share a few things--
two or three because
of the time, and we
want maybe a lot of people to
come in for the discussion.
Let me share two
experiences as a lawyer.
And I have been a lawyer
for 22 years this year.
12 of the years have
been in Sharia courts.
And it's come out in this
book Practicing Sharia,
which has just been published
thanks to Ann [INAUDIBLE]
and Bill for keeping
me here to get it done.
When I started the practice
of Sharia, I had no voice.
So I went into the courtroom
for the first case in 1999.
And I wish I met
you before then.
And we were trained
with seniority.
So I came into court
with three other men.
And because I was the
most senior lawyer,
I should introduce
myself and my colleague.
But my colleague were men.
And I stood up to say, may it
please the honorable court,
my name is Hauwa Ibrahim.
And to me, I wanted
to introduce the men.
And the judge looked
at me and said,
but there are men in the court.
My colleagues are
supposed to speak, not me.
In my situation, we
practice Maliki not Hanafi.
And right now, we
are trying to see
how we can be inclusive of
other schools of thinking.
But it's also partly cultural.
And practically, what
the judge was saying,
shut up and sit down.
And I realized it at the
beginning of the cases.
I have handled over
100 cases of Sharia.
But I realized at
the beginning of it
all that it's not about me.
It's about what you do and
what you sort of eloquently
said here.
Now we do have a goal.
We have an objective.
And our objective
is, if we could,
even if it is a
drop in the bucket,
we keep dropping, always
thinking ahead of us that we
want to change something.
You want to be a judge to
want to change something.
When I was a lawyer, I
wanted to change something.
I don't know what
that thing is clearly,
but I wasn't ready to
take the status quo.
But it is also important
that I do not force myself.
And I was not lucky to
have a situation where
the men would listen.
So I decided to sit down
and develop other strategy
as to how I will approach
the subsequent cases seven
years after I had a voice.
And it took seven years for me
to get a voice in the sharia
court, but it's the
beginning of the struggle
to ensure that there is
dignity for all human beings,
like you rightly pointed out.
And the last one I
wanted to mention,
just to open up
for discussion, is
what I have written
about, at what
point do we couch strategies?
And that is part of the
experiences I've had.
What do we know, and how do
we couch what we want to know,
and what we want to move with.
And the seven
strategies of achieving
justice in sharia court--
I suggested that we
have to understand
the dynamic of the people.
As you heard, sharia
is so vast, it's
so dense, it's so
diverse that it's,
at times, difficult to
pinpoint, what is sharia really?
But I need to know the dynamics.
That is my experience.
But beyond knowing the
dynamics is how do we
work within those dynamics?
And my second strategy
is the ability
to pay attention to details.
But beyond paying
attention to details
is to see whether you can fit
in within your own dynamics.
How do we stay focused on
small things and big things?
I remain focused.
In some of the Sharia
cases I've handled,
women are sentenced
to die by stoning,
but the media was all over.
But how do we know that
our basic responsibility,
as a lawyer in my case--
I'm a minister in the
temple of justice.
And what I know are my
clients and my clients only.
And the fact that I want them
discharged and acquitted.
That was my objection.
I said, judge, you have
done that eloquently.
You have been there
from 2009 to date
I have so much to
learn from you.
And you relayed other
strategies subsequently.
But let me end off by saying
some few words about you
that I find touching.
I mentioned to you at the
beginning of the lecture--
before the lecture began
that what I saw from Erica--
the email that we
have the same judges--
I don't know if some of
my students are here.
I took it to the classroom.
I printed it out and gave it
out and said, see what we have?!
It is a new tomorrow
right in front of us.
I said that is an inspiration.
You are an inspiration to
us, and to me specifically,
and to the jurisdiction
where I come from.
And I look forward to helping
having your documentary
into my own system.
Where I believe among other
great things and positions
you have held today,
you have reminded us
that where one sex
dominates, in this case
maybe the male sex
in sharia court,
and try to regulate the
challenges of the other sex,
which are women,
progress, freedom, peace,
and sustainable
development in my mind
will be slowed in our society.
What an inspiration
you are, Judge Kholoud.
Thank you for coming.
[APPLAUSE]
Thank you so much.
We do want to provide an
opportunity for all of us
to engage in the dialogue.
We have about 10
minutes, so I'm sure you
will have some questions.
Let me just ask
in advance, if you
could make your time at the
mike a question as opposed
to a comment and try to
be as cogent as possible
so that we can have a little
bit of time for some dialogue.
Who's the Oprah among us?
Here she is.
I wonder what room
for interpretation
in the sharia law
system the judge has.
Or are you just bound by
what is already there,
like this penalty is
stoning or whatever?
What room for interpretation
does the judge have?
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
For us, the civil
law that the practice
is in the Jordanian law.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
And this law, again,
it's a strength
in practice from the
shariah law, which is
the Hanafi school of thought.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
And this law had gathered
all the law elements in 138
of code.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
As a judge, like all the
judges in this field,
we have to follow these codes
specifically and carefully.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So if this text needs
more explanation,
we have the highest court
that we go and refer
to for more explanation.
Her question is
about interpretation?
So we have four legal
systems in the country,
so that even makes
it more complicated.
Our sharia is just
one of the four.
And when it comes
to interpretation,
[INAUDIBLE] the Supreme
Court of Nigeria
has the final power to
adjudicate where there
is a conflict between laws.
But section 1 of
our constitution
says, where there is a
conflict, where there's
a legal conflict between laws
to the extent of the conflict
with the Constitution, that
law shall be null and void.
But the Supreme Court have
not taken sharia cases
yet to be able to
interpret the law because
of the jurisdictional nature.
Now, we have the
jurisdiction by section 277
in Nigeria
Constitution-- limited
to only civil matters
in the sharia court,
even though they
tried criminal cases.
So their interpretation
has not come yet,
and we are hoping
it will come soon.
So if I can follow up, actually,
and go back to Judge Kholoud,
the question that you
asked earlier, let me
give you an example, and I'd
like to know what you would do.
I know from reading your
résumé that you actually worked
in a battered women's
shelter, right?
So do you ever receive
criticism from somebody
who says, well, the Quran
says you can beat your wife?
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
Reading the Quran
should not be--
the Quran shouldn't
be read based
on what satisfies the society.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So when a person comes to
me and says these things,
I know that this person
has something to do--
has something against women.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So during my work at the
women's organization,
the association here,
there's a story, true story.
It's about a male--
a male was beating a woman.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
If you believe
that you, as a man,
have the right to
humiliate another person--
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
--so she, on the other hand,
has the right to defend herself
and to respond to you
the way you treated her.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So we reached the conclusion
that no one should hurt anyone.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
In the end, we are all human
beings with no differences.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
And if we go deep to study
the Islamic literature
about this specific topic--
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
--we'll see that Islam raised
the status of woman high.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
There are a lot of
sayings that says
in the Islamic religion that say
that men should not treat women
like animals.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
And the prophet Muhammad
says it in his saying,
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
Whoever honors women is the
one who is most honored;
and who insults
them-- say it again.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
And who humiliates
women is a a--
I don't know what--
you have to translate.
Is a very mean person.
[LAUGHTER]
This thing about
just humiliations--
what about physical harms?
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So we should read religion
from a broader perspective.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
Far from personal benefits.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
And far from the social, from
the wrong social practice--
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
--especially the education
of forbidden and shame.
We have this-- the forbidden
and the shameful acts--
and the forbidden acts.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
Perhaps one more question.
Thank you very much, all of you.
That's a wonderful conversation.
I wanted to ask Judge
Kholoud something.
When you decided,
you were determined
to become a sharia law judge,
was the driving factor for you
the challenge of getting
into the world of men,
because it was under
the dominance of men?
Or was it more getting
into sharia law
and becoming a judge so you
could help women's rights?
What was the more
dominant reason?
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
Maybe both of these reasons, and
maybe there are more reasons.
[LAUGHTER]
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
Especially, I
believe of a saying
that says no to closed doors.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
It is for sure that there is
a reason behind everything,
and we should look
for these reasons.
Well, I just want
to ask one question.
Again, we've seen
lots of transitions
in the last 2 and 1/2 years,
in particular concerns
that perhaps some of the
gains that women have made
are going to be restrained
or perhaps even lessened.
Can you see any way forward with
all of the significant changes?
Can you see that there's a
possibility that perhaps women
may even emerge stronger?
Well, I mean, for one
thing, Judge Kholoud
gives me great
hope, at least for
the Palestinian territories.
For the people like
that, there's hope.
But when watching the Arab
Spring, the Tahrir Square,
women were extremely active,
including the religious women.
They had been leaders,
actually, in the movement.
But we seemed, at
the moment, sadly
to be falling into
terrible conditions.
And I know that a lot of women
are suffering and protesting,
and I don't know
what the answer is.
But I'm hopeful seeing
Judge Kholoud here.
There is hope.
Gloria, the work you do, what
Susan does, what a lot of us
do in this room--
without a doubt, the door of
ijtihad is still very open.
And the hope is also
very within our reach.
But we should not
be naive about it.
It means that there
is opportunity
for us to redouble our efforts.
Maybe the struggle is
just about to begin
in some of the societies.
And where we have taken one
step forward, for us to enforce
it by not giving up--
turning challenges
into opportunities.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
For me, I agree with Hauwa.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
So if there is no
hope, there is no life.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
Me and my friend [INAUDIBLE],,
we were the first two women
to be judges in the
sharia court, but in 2011?
In 2011, there was a third
woman who was appointed
to this position in Palestine.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
Also, I want to say to
add to the hope there
must be an insistence,
determination
along with the hope.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
I want to give a small example.
Last June and last year--
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
There was a new judge for the
higher court that was appointed
in Palestine last year.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
And he took this decision
to promote the judges
to higher positions.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
And he chose only men to
be promoted to these higher
positions.
He did not choose
me or my friend--
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
--even though me and my friend,
we were very, very qualified
to these positions.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
For me, I did not give up.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
I talked to judges.
I spent half my salaries
on these phone calls
with the judges.
[LAUGHTER]
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
To stand together as
judges and to raise a case
against these new laws that
violates our rights as judges.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
Unfortunately, out of 45
judges, only three of us
raised a case in the higher
court against this decision.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
I was one of the three people.
And I'm waiting for
the decision to be
made on March 6th, this year.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
I did not stop here.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
I was able to bring
together 14 judges.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
And we signed a petition.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
And we went to the Palestinian
Authority President on Friday.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
This was a holiday for us.
Friday is a holiday there.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
And we were allowed--
it's hard to move around during
this day because of the Israel
checkpoints.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
Even though we went and
we made a surprise for
him and we went to
the mosque where
he prays the Friday prayer,
and we made a surprise for him.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
And we gave him the
petition, and we
asked him to appoint a new
judge for the highest--
a new justice for
the highest court.
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
And God willing, there will be.
[LAUGHTER]
Thank you so much.
[APPLAUSE]
I don't know about you,
but I am so inspired.
Martin Luther King tells the
story of the Montgomery Bus
Boycott, which, as you
know, lasted almost a year
before African-Americans
were allowed to take
a seat any place on the bus.
And so it was their custom
that everybody would walk.
But the older people
would be provided a ride.
And Mother Pollard
was in her 70s
and consistently
refused a ride to work.
And when the young
Martin King asked her
why wouldn't she take a
ride, she expressed her pride
over this movement.
And she said that her feets her
tired, but her soul was rested.
And for sure there are
significant challenges
that women and girls face in the
world, and our feets are tired.
But Judge Kholoud
is on the case.
[LAUGHTER]
And our souls are rested.
[APPLAUSE]
Thank you so much for coming.
We really appreciate it.
Be encouraged.
We're gonna handle
this situation.
The revolution has started.
[LAUGHTER]
[APPLAUSE]
