
German: 
So, music works only if it is there for a while. It has to be there somehow.
It is only there because of time.
And with photography you're inevitably bound to time, because you ... um ...
"shutterspeed"?
You have to work with a ... shutter speed.
Actually, yes - and the thought came to me in there -
photography is nothing more than the visualization of time.
And if you put that in relation to music, I think that's pretty cool.
Photography has a dynamic,
a technical dynamic, but also an artistic dynamic and
you have tone colours ... I find all these connections really great.
We should do something with that!

English: 
So, music works only if it is there for a while. It has to be there somehow.
It is only there because of time.
And with photography you're inevitably bound to time, because you ... um ...
"shutterspeed"?
You have to work with a ... shutter speed.
Actually, yes - and the thought came to me in there -
photography is nothing more than the visualization of time.
And if you put that in relation to music, I think that's pretty cool.
Photography has a dynamic,
a technical dynamic, but also an artistic dynamic and
you have tone colours ... I find all these connections really great.
We should do something with that!

German: 
- Well, I felt European for a long time
and then Europe starts to f*** everything up ...
and then ...
now we have no identity again, sh*t!
- L: Yes! (Laughs)
- Being German has always been sh*t. And with reason too I think!

English: 
- Well, I felt European for a long time
and then Europe starts to f*** everything up ...
and then ...
now we have no identity again, sh*t!
- L: Yes! (Laughs)
- Being German has always been sh*t. And with reason too I think!

German: 
Although I also think that many countries could learn from Germany in some sense,
so that they don't always fall into historical revisionionism and
rewrite the history books all the time.
Instead they'd say, "Yes, in this period it was really extremely sh*t
and then it wasn't really good either, now maybe it's okay."
Instead of this attitude in the US where it's always "God's greatest country"
and Japan, where they simply remove various wars from their history books.
And I liked being European for a while. Well, if you overlook the whole colonialism problem of course ...!
But with this isolationist policy, I find that really scary.
Yes, and then they always say: "Europe is the cradle of humanism", and then they say

English: 
Although I also think that many countries could learn from Germany in some sense,
so that they don't always fall into historical revisionionism and
rewrite the history books all the time.
Instead they'd say, "Yes, in this period it was really extremely sh*t
and then it wasn't really good either, now maybe it's okay."
Instead of this attitude in the US where it's always "God's greatest country"
and Japan, where they simply remove various wars from their history books.
And I liked being European for a while. Well, if you overlook the whole colonialism problem of course ...!
But with this isolationist policy, I find that really scary.
Yes, and then they always say: "Europe is the cradle of humanism", and then they say

English: 
"Look at the stupid Americans with their brains fattended by fast-food, they're so stupid."
Trump wants to build a wall, everyone gets upset, rightly so,
but in Europe we don't need to build a wall, because we have the Mediterranean! How very useful!
And then we have a bit of headland in between, and then we can make some weird deals
with strange countries like Turkey, which also have strange governments.
And Europe sits on its high horse saying, "We are so civilized!"
I find that ... ugh.
And that's why, as of today, I'm no longer European. From today on I'm (laughing) something else. Still searching ...!
- L: I also find identity difficult.
- N: Well, I mean, identity is such a heavy thing anyway!
And if you go through all the meta-levels, then  ...

German: 
"Look at the stupid Americans with their brains fattended by fast-food, they're so stupid."
Trump wants to build a wall, everyone gets upset, rightly so,
but in Europe we don't need to build a wall, because we have the Mediterranean! How very useful!
And then we have a bit of headland in between, and then we can make some weird deals
with strange countries like Turkey, which also have strange governments.
And Europe sits on its high horse saying, "We are so civilized!"
I find that ... ugh.
And that's why, as of today, I'm no longer European. From today on I'm (laughing) something else. Still searching ...!
- L: I also find identity difficult.
- N: Well, I mean, identity is such a heavy thing anyway!
And if you go through all the meta-levels, then  ...

German: 
So either you lose yourself ...
or not (laughs)
- L: Yes, for me it was always a completely different story, because I'm just half German
and I was always treated by Germans as if I didn't really belong,
and then I said at some point, OK, then I don't belong, fine.
- N: Yeah, I don't know ...
- L: Well of course, that doesn't make me Russian, but ...  
- N: No, of course not,
but it's always somehow suggested that you're not one of us.
What you really are, you have to find out for yourself.
But you could also say ... that this can be a bit of a chance to really find yourself, because I mean, how many people
are leading these pre-determined lives, especially in Germany, because they are so nicely structured:

English: 
So either you lose yourself ...
or not (laughs)
- L: Yes, for me it was always a completely different story, because I'm just half German
and I was always treated by Germans as if I didn't really belong,
and then I said at some point, OK, then I don't belong, fine.
- N: Yeah, I don't know ...
- L: Well of course, that doesn't make me Russian, but ...  
- N: No, of course not,
but it's always somehow suggested that you're not one of us.
What you really are, you have to find out for yourself.
But you could also say ... that this can be a bit of a chance to really find yourself, because I mean, how many people
are leading these pre-determined lives, especially in Germany, because they are so nicely structured:

English: 
Go to school, some form of education, you do your job,
and then you retire and then you're dead.
Most people don't even find their identity, because they just conform ...
They just wear that identity hat suitable for the masses, somehow it suits everyone 
 and with that it works quite well.
And then at some point you have a family, you make children, you build a little house,
you have a dog and then at some point you die.
I always found that so weird! 
 - L: Yeah, me too!
- N: I mean, I already found school really weird! The idea of ​​somehow going there every day to learn,
being forced to learn too, and it wasn't fun at all.
And everything that was fun you couldn't do anymore.
Well, that's also a problem, to find a job,
some "gainful employment", that pays the health insurance,

German: 
Go to school, some form of education, you do your job,
and then you retire and then you're dead.
Most people don't even find their identity, because they just conform ...
They just wear that identity hat suitable for the masses, somehow it suits everyone 
 and with that it works quite well.
And then at some point you have a family, you make children, you build a little house,
you have a dog and then at some point you die.
I always found that so weird! 
 - L: Yeah, me too!
- N: I mean, I already found school really weird! The idea of ​​somehow going there every day to learn,
being forced to learn too, and it wasn't fun at all.
And everything that was fun you couldn't do anymore.
Well, that's also a problem, to find a job,
some "gainful employment", that pays the health insurance,

German: 
and that pays a roof over your head, and so on and so forth. And then finding something that isn't totally stupid!
Something that makes no sense at all. So, when I look at all these
silly insurance professions and all that sh*t! There are so many useful professions,
that nobody pursues because the pay is sh*t or they aren't regarded highly.
I just think meaningfulness is really important, because ... to only do it because of the money ...!
That's not enough! Or is it?
- L: Definitely not!
- Yes, that's what's really stupid that somehow
we live primarily to fulfill the expectations of others.
- L: Exactly!
- N: So that the parents can say: look, the kid made something of himself! And the teachers can say: look, the kid made something of himself!

English: 
and that pays a roof over your head, and so on and so forth. And then finding something that isn't totally stupid!
Something that makes no sense at all. So, when I look at all these
silly insurance professions and all that sh*t! There are so many useful professions,
that nobody pursues because the pay is sh*t or they aren't regarded highly.
I just think meaningfulness is really important, because ... to only do it because of the money ...!
That's not enough! Or is it?
- L: Definitely not!
- Yes, that's what's really stupid that somehow
we live primarily to fulfill the expectations of others.
- L: Exactly!
- N: So that the parents can say: look, the kid made something of himself! And the teachers can say: look, the kid made something of himself!

English: 
And that society can say: Look, the kid made something of himself.
But actually, most people make nothing of themselves.
- L: Most people, yes ... most people, they have their little house, their bullsh*t job ...
that's an academic term by the way, there's actually a book called "Bullsh*t Jobs".
 So, these are professions and jobs that would serve absolutely no function if capitalism didn't exist.
And most people simply do such jobs, at least in the West,
they serve no function at all and people are wasting their lifetime!
- N: Yes, exactly, they are wasting their time!
That's what really gets me!
Well, I have the feeling ... Sometimes, there is such a panic in me when I somehow realize that I waste my time.

German: 
And that society can say: Look, the kid made something of himself.
But actually, most people make nothing of themselves.
- L: Most people, yes ... most people, they have their little house, their bullsh*t job ...
that's an academic term by the way, there's actually a book called "Bullsh*t Jobs".
 So, these are professions and jobs that would serve absolutely no function if capitalism didn't exist.
And most people simply do such jobs, at least in the West,
they serve no function at all and people are wasting their lifetime!
- N: Yes, exactly, they are wasting their time!
That's what really gets me!
Well, I have the feeling ... Sometimes, there is such a panic in me when I somehow realize that I waste my time.

English: 
I think my job is meaningful
and whether it is regarded highly or not I don't really care, because I'm getting something out of it for myself,
but actually I would just like to have more time for my photography.
When I'm making plans for next year ...
If I could work the way I wanted, I would be on the road half the year,
but how am I supposed to finance that? I find that so difficult!
I have to somehow fit it all in these six weeks of vacation that I get, squeeze it in there
and then just accept that everything I want to do will take me years like that. Sometimes I think that's OK,
because I think alright, slowness is kind of an opportunity and so on.

German: 
I think my job is meaningful
and whether it is regarded highly or not I don't really care, because I'm getting something out of it for myself,
but actually I would just like to have more time for my photography.
When I'm making plans for next year ...
If I could work the way I wanted, I would be on the road half the year,
but how am I supposed to finance that? I find that so difficult!
I have to somehow fit it all in these six weeks of vacation that I get, squeeze it in there
and then just accept that everything I want to do will take me years like that. Sometimes I think that's OK,
because I think alright, slowness is kind of an opportunity and so on.

English: 
On the other hand, I also know that with a lot of ideas that I had, which I actually liked, I never really started, because somehow I did not ...
because I realised I just couldn't make the time for them.
And I find that really annoying.
So, sometimes it feels like it would be really nice to be ... you know, a bit stupid.
To say, "Great, I'm going to work today and then I'm going to buy
some new electronic gadget "for the cosmopolitan man" from Amazon.
and then someday I'll have a pension and then I buy a Harley and drive to Lake Garda. And then I die! 
 (Quietly) Hooray!
- L: Yes, intelligence is really a curse sometimes! 
 - N: Yes, it is! Especially if your intelligence is ...
how can I say that?

German: 
On the other hand, I also know that with a lot of ideas that I had, which I actually liked, I never really started, because somehow I did not ...
because I realised I just couldn't make the time for them.
And I find that really annoying.
So, sometimes it feels like it would be really nice to be ... you know, a bit stupid.
To say, "Great, I'm going to work today and then I'm going to buy
some new electronic gadget "for the cosmopolitan man" from Amazon.
and then someday I'll have a pension and then I buy a Harley and drive to Lake Garda. And then I die! 
 (Quietly) Hooray!
- L: Yes, intelligence is really a curse sometimes! 
 - N: Yes, it is! Especially if your intelligence is ...
how can I say that?

German: 
Well, I have little mathematical intelligence for example, so I'm pretty much lost there. But maybe I have an emotional intelligence.
But that doesn't matter in our society.
You can become a social worker with that. Or a teacher.
But teachers, there you have to work with children, but as a social worker, at least I can say I can work with young adults too.
Yeah, sometimes ...
I would like to be ... There are moments when I would like to be like one of our cats. She's just totally happy!
She's completely stupid, but she's super happy. She just comes along, and she's always in a good mood,
and then maybe she gets into a fight with the other cat, then she's not in such a good mood, but then a little while later she's in a good mood again
and then she lies down and she always smiles and is always happy. And if there's something to eat then she'll be even happier.
I would like that too sometimes.
(L laughs)
I would like it if life wasn't always such a task.

English: 
Well, I have little mathematical intelligence for example, so I'm pretty much lost there. But maybe I have an emotional intelligence.
But that doesn't matter in our society.
You can become a social worker with that. Or a teacher.
But teachers, there you have to work with children, but as a social worker, at least I can say I can work with young adults too.
Yeah, sometimes ...
I would like to be ... There are moments when I would like to be like one of our cats. She's just totally happy!
She's completely stupid, but she's super happy. She just comes along, and she's always in a good mood,
and then maybe she gets into a fight with the other cat, then she's not in such a good mood, but then a little while later she's in a good mood again
and then she lies down and she always smiles and is always happy. And if there's something to eat then she'll be even happier.
I would like that too sometimes.
(L laughs)
I would like it if life wasn't always such a task.

German: 
Not always having to solve problems, or having to figure out how you can somehow fit
the things that you want to do into all these tight constraints, without it becoming overwhelming for you!
-L: Finances are of course always a problem.
We, as photographers can only earn money today, if we photograph
real estate or weddings or something like that.
- N: Yes, and even there ... They always put it so nicely as the democratization of the media.
Taking pictures is no longer a privilege, so to speak, of the rich.  Anyone can
 take decent enough pictures with a phone today.
Or in music, this happens too.
You don't have to rent expensive studios anymore to make a record. You can do that at home with a laptop and some microphones.

English: 
Not always having to solve problems, or having to figure out how you can somehow fit
the things that you want to do into all these tight constraints, without it becoming overwhelming for you!
-L: Finances are of course always a problem.
We, as photographers can only earn money today, if we photograph
real estate or weddings or something like that.
- N: Yes, and even there ... They always put it so nicely as the democratization of the media.
Taking pictures is no longer a privilege, so to speak, of the rich.  Anyone can
 take decent enough pictures with a phone today.
Or in music, this happens too.
You don't have to rent expensive studios anymore to make a record. You can do that at home with a laptop and some microphones.

German: 
And people do that too! On the one hand, this is totally great, but on the other hand,
the whole thing becomes more arbitrary.
- L: In what way arbitrary?
- N: That's a bit like the difference between a photographer
and a person with a camera.
So, a person with a camera is not a photographer, it's just a person with a camera.
Even if that person takes pictures.
It's just someone with a camera. That's just like
when somebody buys a guitar and can
cover two songs, or cover 10 songs,
that's not a musician for me. A musician, or a photographer is for me always someone,
a person, who is just looking for depth in it. And that's not just

English: 
And people do that too! On the one hand, this is totally great, but on the other hand,
the whole thing becomes more arbitrary.
- L: In what way arbitrary?
- N: That's a bit like the difference between a photographer
and a person with a camera.
So, a person with a camera is not a photographer, it's just a person with a camera.
Even if that person takes pictures.
It's just someone with a camera. That's just like
when somebody buys a guitar and can
cover two songs, or cover 10 songs,
that's not a musician for me. A musician, or a photographer is for me always someone,
a person, who is just looking for depth in it. And that's not just

English: 
to go to Iceland to the most popular waterfall, put on a red jacket, take a selfie, upload it to Instagram and get 25,000 likes for it.
That's just showmanship. I find self-expression on this level very ... flat.
It has very little depth.
And very few people are able or willing
to do anything for this kind of artistic depth, because depth doesn't just come by itself. You have to work for it.
That's why so much photography is just arbitrary.
It's just fast food.
Whether you eat at McDonalds in Bangkok or Berlin, it's ultimately the same.
And it's similar with photography. The visual language is becoming more and more uniform and ...

German: 
to go to Iceland to the most popular waterfall, put on a red jacket, take a selfie, upload it to Instagram and get 25,000 likes for it.
That's just showmanship. I find self-expression on this level very ... flat.
It has very little depth.
And very few people are able or willing
to do anything for this kind of artistic depth, because depth doesn't just come by itself. You have to work for it.
That's why so much photography is just arbitrary.
It's just fast food.
Whether you eat at McDonalds in Bangkok or Berlin, it's ultimately the same.
And it's similar with photography. The visual language is becoming more and more uniform and ...

English: 
Just because many people can do it, that doesn't mean that it's also good.
Good and bad are of course very vague criteria though.
- L: And also ... bourgeouis ... the criteria.
- N: That too ... yes, it's very complex! It's all very complex!
And most people don't even see that it's complex.
And if you have somehow accepted this complexity,
then nothing is easy! (laughs)
On the one hand, that's great, because you can get some depth out of it.
On the other hand, it is of course also totally annoying,
because it's always exhausting.
Once you somehow have a perception that goes beyond the daily routine,

German: 
Just because many people can do it, that doesn't mean that it's also good.
Good and bad are of course very vague criteria though.
- L: And also ... bourgeouis ... the criteria.
- N: That too ... yes, it's very complex! It's all very complex!
And most people don't even see that it's complex.
And if you have somehow accepted this complexity,
then nothing is easy! (laughs)
On the one hand, that's great, because you can get some depth out of it.
On the other hand, it is of course also totally annoying,
because it's always exhausting.
Once you somehow have a perception that goes beyond the daily routine,

English: 
you're basically f*cked and at the same time you're able to do something with it.
It comes of course with a price tag.
- L: I think all artistic expression carries a price.
- N: Yes, I think so, too.
- Partly I have the problem that ...
If I take street pictures in San Sebastián now,
the only thing I do there is take pictures of rich people with their children and dogs,
which as you can imagine isn't necessarily super satisfying for me.
I mean, street photography can be fun,
but San Sebastián is actually too small for that.
So it's not really fun because it basically wears out your shoes, so to speak.

German: 
you're basically f*cked and at the same time you're able to do something with it.
It comes of course with a price tag.
- L: I think all artistic expression carries a price.
- N: Yes, I think so, too.
- Partly I have the problem that ...
If I take street pictures in San Sebastián now,
the only thing I do there is take pictures of rich people with their children and dogs,
which as you can imagine isn't necessarily super satisfying for me.
I mean, street photography can be fun,
but San Sebastián is actually too small for that.
So it's not really fun because it basically wears out your shoes, so to speak.

English: 
It's not fun because of that, but ... If I'm in New York or in Berlin again or wherever ...
then maybe I could have fun with street photography, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it has
real depth, not always, depending on what one is doing there.
So, a bit of light and shade and
a bit of  placing a person in an urban structure is not necessarily depth, I would say.
- N: Well, it's just the context!
Well, a picture is just a picture and the context makes it somehow interesting.
that's why I said earlier that I find the stuff that you do also very interesting in books.
Because then it is more than just the person that moves somewhere
in the urban light and shadow, but ...!

German: 
It's not fun because of that, but ... If I'm in New York or in Berlin again or wherever ...
then maybe I could have fun with street photography, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it has
real depth, not always, depending on what one is doing there.
So, a bit of light and shade and
a bit of  placing a person in an urban structure is not necessarily depth, I would say.
- N: Well, it's just the context!
Well, a picture is just a picture and the context makes it somehow interesting.
that's why I said earlier that I find the stuff that you do also very interesting in books.
Because then it is more than just the person that moves somewhere
in the urban light and shadow, but ...!

English: 
A book always provides a bigger picture.
It's more than the sum of the individual images,
it encompasses the whole context
and everything that moves in between. I find that the exciting thing about it.
And it's also very common ...
Sometimes we don't really see what we have in front of our eyes.
I also have difficulties finding something for me
where I live in the Ruhr area.
Because actually the Ruhr area is the opposite of what I'm looking for: 
  It's always so narrow, it's loud,
there are too many people and there is concrete everywhere. Yeah great, I like wide spaces, where the sun can
stand very low and doesn't cast shadows and everything is very soft. And then I'm there? That doesn't make any sense! (laughs)

German: 
A book always provides a bigger picture.
It's more than the sum of the individual images,
it encompasses the whole context
and everything that moves in between. I find that the exciting thing about it.
And it's also very common ...
Sometimes we don't really see what we have in front of our eyes.
I also have difficulties finding something for me
where I live in the Ruhr area.
Because actually the Ruhr area is the opposite of what I'm looking for: 
  It's always so narrow, it's loud,
there are too many people and there is concrete everywhere. Yeah great, I like wide spaces, where the sun can
stand very low and doesn't cast shadows and everything is very soft. And then I'm there? That doesn't make any sense! (laughs)

English: 
But then what can be exciting with this, but it's something that is also exhausting again,
is to look for a niche in order to find aspects
that tick maybe not all the boxes of what one would like, but at least a few.
That's why I photographed the university in our town last year,
because it was just my attempt to find silence. Sunday evening, when nothing is going on I would go
 into the parking garages and take pictures there. Just because it's so incredibly quiet,
there are absolutely no people and it felt like I was able to hear my own thoughts again.
So why - and this is tied to money - why should art depend upon being able to afford it?
I think art should be affordable for everyone.
It shouldn't just be hanging in some villas or lying in a stupid safe,
but if someone says, Hey, I find this picture of yours really great, then I want to be able to say:

German: 
But then what can be exciting with this, but it's something that is also exhausting again,
is to look for a niche in order to find aspects
that tick maybe not all the boxes of what one would like, but at least a few.
That's why I photographed the university in our town last year,
because it was just my attempt to find silence. Sunday evening, when nothing is going on I would go
 into the parking garages and take pictures there. Just because it's so incredibly quiet,
there are absolutely no people and it felt like I was able to hear my own thoughts again.
So why - and this is tied to money - why should art depend upon being able to afford it?
I think art should be affordable for everyone.
It shouldn't just be hanging in some villas or lying in a stupid safe,
but if someone says, Hey, I find this picture of yours really great, then I want to be able to say:

English: 
"You can have it! What do you earn?"
And then to say, 10% are not too high. People can afford that ...
Dude!
Welcome to capitalism! (L laughs) 
Crikey!
Yes, since we are talking of capitalism and of "everyone should be able to afford art" ...!
I think the problem you have with your gallery is that it is really aimed at just the rich.
Yes, that's just the thing, that's where the money is, that's how art is funded.
That's just such a shame.

German: 
"You can have it! What do you earn?"
And then to say, 10% are not too high. People can afford that ...
Dude!
Welcome to capitalism! (L laughs) 
Crikey!
Yes, since we are talking of capitalism and of "everyone should be able to afford art" ...!
I think the problem you have with your gallery is that it is really aimed at just the rich.
Yes, that's just the thing, that's where the money is, that's how art is funded.
That's just such a shame.

English: 
Because, why shouldn't someone who doesn't have such a nice life be able to say,
I think your picture is beautiful, I would like to hang it in my living room." Then I just want to say, "Yes, you can do that,
it doesn't break the bank and you don't have to go into debt over it, we can just do that!"
And if somebody says, I would like to hang it above the loo of my lawyer's office, then I can still say, "Yeah, you make so much money,
fork it over then."
I think that thought is very nice. On the other hand,
thinking again about complexity and recognising complexity:
This system that I have just described, can of course also be manipulated and exploited very well.
You only need to send someone on benefits and say "Hey, I want to buy your picture", make it 10 percent,
that's like 44 euros and then he gives it to the guy in the villa and gets 200 euros for it and
maybe the guy in the villa would have had to pay something like 20,000 euros.
So you have to somehow either believe in the good of people,

German: 
Because, why shouldn't someone who doesn't have such a nice life be able to say,
I think your picture is beautiful, I would like to hang it in my living room." Then I just want to say, "Yes, you can do that,
it doesn't break the bank and you don't have to go into debt over it, we can just do that!"
And if somebody says, I would like to hang it above the loo of my lawyer's office, then I can still say, "Yeah, you make so much money,
fork it over then."
I think that thought is very nice. On the other hand,
thinking again about complexity and recognising complexity:
This system that I have just described, can of course also be manipulated and exploited very well.
You only need to send someone on benefits and say "Hey, I want to buy your picture", make it 10 percent,
that's like 44 euros and then he gives it to the guy in the villa and gets 200 euros for it and
maybe the guy in the villa would have had to pay something like 20,000 euros.
So you have to somehow either believe in the good of people,

German: 
but in this capitalist society I don't do that with finances, but then you have to
sign contracts and think about law clauses. That's also  annoying, because I really want to trust people!
That would be nice! But that's just a bit ...
there are lots of things that would be nice, but you have to just do them and they have to be accepted.
It only works if people don't exploit it.
And exploitation is just such a common hobby ...
also in Germany!
Things could be so simple if people didn't behave like assholes! That would be great!
I mean ... a lot of problems wouldn't exist! In fact almost all problems!

English: 
but in this capitalist society I don't do that with finances, but then you have to
sign contracts and think about law clauses. That's also  annoying, because I really want to trust people!
That would be nice! But that's just a bit ...
there are lots of things that would be nice, but you have to just do them and they have to be accepted.
It only works if people don't exploit it.
And exploitation is just such a common hobby ...
also in Germany!
Things could be so simple if people didn't behave like assholes! That would be great!
I mean ... a lot of problems wouldn't exist! In fact almost all problems!

German: 
But most people don't manage to think beyond their own nose tip.
"Why apply myself to things that won't make a profit? Whatever for?
Maybe my performance would suffer from that and I can't underperform!"
Kinda noticeable that we are in Dusseldorf, it kinda rubs off on me. (L laughs) Really extreme!
N: That's how it is ...
L: That's how it is!

English: 
But most people don't manage to think beyond their own nose tip.
"Why apply myself to things that won't make a profit? Whatever for?
Maybe my performance would suffer from that and I can't underperform!"
Kinda noticeable that we are in Dusseldorf, it kinda rubs off on me. (L laughs) Really extreme!
N: That's how it is ...
L: That's how it is!
