[music]
[applause]
ANN PATCHETT: Hi home. Hi Nashville. 
[chuckle]
This is my friend Ruth. And we're--
RUTH REICHL: This is my friend Ann. [laughter]
>> We are very excited to be here and to be 
doing this tonight.
I finished Ruth's new book, "My Kitchen Year" -- 
is it The Kitchen Year, or My Kitchen Year?
>> "My Kitchen Year."
>> I finished it on Sunday night and I thought, 
"I've never in my life had the experience
before of finishing a book and thinking 'Oh, I 
wish I could interview this person on stage' ".
I wish I could just sit here and ask you all of 
these questions about the book.
So I-- and we're friends. And we've known each 
other for a really long time.
So this-- this is kind of the absolute best case 
scenario.
I am a Ruth Reichl completest, I have read all of 
those books, except that cook book.
>> "Mmmm".
>> "Mmmm". I didn't read "Mmmm".
>> Is "Mmmm" still available?
>> It is-- you know, you can find old copies of it. 
But it's very expensive.
It was a very small printing and it was 40 years 
ago.
>> So I shouldn't feel like I'm doing a bad job as 
a friend by not having read it.
>> No, but I will send you a copy.
>> I would really--  I would very much appreciate 
just for the set, completing of the set.
And I--  this is a strange--  
it feels strange to say this, but it's--  this is 
really my favorite book of yours.
And I guess the reason that it feels strange is, 
it is marketed as a cookbook and so, 
you wouldn't sort of put a cookbook up against 
your friend's memoir or your friend's novel that 
you love so much.
You want to jump in at any point? 
>> Yeah. [laughter]
My husband thinks it's my best book.
And he has zero interest in food.
>> He's got to have more than zero. 
>> He's--  he's a hard news guy.
I mean, really given his choice, he would eat 
cheese burgers three times a day.
[audience laughing] That is not a joke. That is 
absolutely true.
And--  but, you know, he said this--  this is-- you 
sort of put your whole self into this book 
and it's-- it's everything you've always cared 
about.
The whole notion of getting people back into the 
kitchen and--
you just--  every--  you know, all the things that 
are important to me, like the notion of finding joy 
in ordinary things, I mean, it's all here.
And, you know, I have trouble writing.
I don't find it an easy thing to do, and this book 
was easy.
I don't think I'll ever write another book this easy, 
but this one just happened really naturally.
There was nothing about it that was strained.
I didn't have a lot--  it was also kind of accidental 
in that,
one, I didn't set out in the beginning to write a 
cookbook, 
so it sort of came together in a natural way.
And then I didn't want photographs in it or 
drawings.
And so when Random House insisted that there 
had to be photographs,
I hired a photographer I thought I would want to 
work with. But I never said to him--
We just said take 20 pictures of 20 dishes each 
season.
And, you know, he said okay. 
It's just gonna be you and me, no food stylist. 
We're going to do this in a really honest way.
But I never said to him, "Oh, and while you're at 
it take pictures of me cooking 
and take pictures of the driveway."
He just did that. Nobody--  you know, it was just 
on his own.
And then when the designer got it, she did it-- 
she just used them all, which we had never 
anticipated.
So in some ways for me,
what I miss most about the magazine is 
collaboration.
You know, I mean, we would all work together 
and
we'd take an idea and you'd throw it up in the air 
and everybody would like, you know,
push it higher and make it better.
And I really miss that. And this book happened 
that way. You know, sort of became 
our book and everybody had a little piece of it 
and made it better.
So it was kind of a joy in doing this that you 
don't usually get with a book.
>> And it--  it's a kind of joy and you don't 
usually get a kind of joy in a book 
that is a book about depression.
>> Yes.
>> And...
the balance between the depression and the joy 
is astonishing.
And the way this book is set up - there's a 
tweet-  we'll talk about the tweet thing later.
That's mystifying to me.
Although there's sort of these beautiful little zen 
tweets, 
then there's a page in which Ruth is more or 
less saying,
"I'm in bed feeling like a failure, wonder if we'll 
lose the house."
"Decide to make a pork shoulder." 
[audience laughter]
"Pull myself out of bed."
"Here's how you make the pork shoulder."
And I read every single word of this book, which 
is strange.
I certainly in my life-- and not because we're 
friends 
and not because I was being conscientious 
about tonight, but because I was so 
interested in how you were writing about food. 
And you were writing about food with great joy.
Your food language, your vocabulary for talking 
about boiling things is enchanting.
[audience laughter] 
So there's tweet, depression, joy.
Tweet, depression, joy.
In very small packages over and over again 
you take things that for me would be very 
complicated 
and hard in these recipes and you have this way 
of making it just seem effortless.
I've never seen anybody write recipes the way 
you do.
>> Well, I-- okay. Recipe writing is mostly-- 
they're marching orders.
You do--  you go buy these things and then you 
do bing bang, bing, bing, bing.
And to me it should be a conversation.
>> And that's exactly how it felt.
>> And I wanted the recipes--  after years of 
being a food editor and sort of, 
you know, having a sense of you have to put it in 
this rigid frame,
I want old cooking to sort of burst out of that.
And for me the big part of cooking is-- 
pay attention to the sound of water when it's 
boiling and look at the--  when you peel a peach,
there's a color under there that's so amazing 
and it's hidden 
until you peel it. If you bite into a peach you'll 
never see it because it's right beneath the skin.
There are all these moments in the kitchen, and 
I wanted to say, 
you know, when you're doing this, notice this.
I mean, these are the things that work for me 
and make every day worth living.
And so I--  I thought hard about, are they gonna 
let me do this?
Are they gonna let me write the recipes in this 
way that is not normal?
And in fact, I had-- I had somebody test the 
recipes.
And when she tested them, I said, "and can you 
put them into ordinary recipe speak?"
Make it--  make a shopping list and then, you 
know, put one, two, three, four.
So we had all those. And I thought, you know, 
okay, I will say to Random House, 
"if you think we need to have this, we can have 
an appendix in the back of the book 
for people who need that."
And to my great delight, they said no. We're not 
going to do that.
>> I really believe that-- and sort of like 
intellectually I don't believe it, 
but when I'm reading the book,
I really believe that this is what you made on 
this day when you got out of the bed in this 
funk.
>> It is.
>> It really is?
>> It is. Okay, so-- I didn't set--
>> Like that scene where you make fudge 
sauce?
>> I did.
>> Seriously?
>> Yeah.
>> You just really got up in the middle of the 
night and made fudge sauce?
>> I did.
>> Damn.
>> I did. [audience laughter]
I got up in the middle of the night. I was like--  I 
couldn't sleep.
It's 4:00 in the morning, and I thought, 
you know I'd really like a hot fudge sundae. 
[laughing]
>> Wow.
>> Because there are times when... 
you really need to indulge yourself.
>> Yes. And that has to do with the whole 
depression joy, depression, joy, back and forth.
And why this cookbook feels so different. It's 
like you--
you are truly writing it for yourself, which is why I 
think it was easy and why I think it's so brilliant, 
but you aren't kneeling to any American's ideas 
about what's going on with food now.
That first recipe in the book for those little 
potatoes that you boil and cream and mash 
and then put an egg in and pour more cream on 
them,
I just think-- and you're like and you could put 
bacon and a little cheese on top. [laughter]
I mean, where have you been? I mean, it's like 
the "Mad Men Cookbook." [laughter]
I sort of pictured you there with a cigarette and a 
martini, stirring this stuff-- 
and then the next recipe is for chicken liver pate. 
And I'm thinking, "Ruth, what's going on, girl?"
>> I mean, I think, you know, we spend way too 
much time worrying about what we eat.
If you just stay away from industrial food, you're 
fine. You just eat real food, and it's fine.
>> Okay. This is what I really want to talk about 
for the whole time we're on stage because 
I really struggle with this. There is so much 
butter in this book. [laughter]
And so many moments when you say, "use as 
much butter as you feel"...
>> As you can bring yourself to use.
>> Yeah. Right. [audience laughter]
Anywhere between a half a stick and a stick, 
depending on how brave you're feeling at the 
time.
There is, in our world now, this enormous 
division, camps for food.
And your camp is the camp that's getting 
squeezed out, which is food for pleasure.
There's food for medicine,
there's food for morality and world justice, 
and there's food for socializing.
But that--  I feel like you're really writing about 
food for taste.
>> I am. But I'm also--  I mean, there's a lot 
about sustainability and, 
you know--  I mean, I'm very much--  I'm behind 
the idea of we should eat locally,
if we're only eating animals, we should only eat 
happy animals, you should support your local 
farmer.
There's a lot-- I cook with seasons. But I also 
think, you know, we've made ourselves crazy in 
America.
>> Yeah, me, I've made myself crazy.
>> You know, and, you know, every year the 
pundits tell us, 
you know, eggs are good, no, eggs are bad.
You know, now, you know, for years everybody 
was drinking skim milk.
Now--  now everybody is saying whole milk is 
really better for you.
My husband sent me a text this morning saying, 
"You have to stop taking calcium supplements. 
They've just discovered they're really bad for 
you." [laughter]
>> You heard it here first, folks. [laughter]
>> And, you know, in the light of all of this, I 
mean, 
I feel like we need to have some common sense 
about this and... 
food is-- you know, one of the great pleasures of 
life is eating.
And we've taken--  we've sucked all the pleasure 
out of it and replaced it with
fear and artificial flavors 
and I really do think that 
you should make food that you love and, you 
know, eat less of it, 
if that's what you need to do. But if you eat 
satisfying food, a few bites are fun.
You don't really need to eat a mountain of it.
>> And I didn't get the feeling in this book that 
your primary joy was eating this food.
>> It isn't.
>> It was cooking.
>> It's cooking and feeding other people.
>> Yeah.
>> So I enjoy cooking. 
Probably a little bit more than most people, but I 
feel wildly oppressed by it.
Anyone here with me on that page? I mean, just 
feel like if...
When my husband says I have a meeting 
tonight, 
I mean, my first thought is, "Oh, I don't have to 
make dinner!" 
It's just frantic. My desire for him to go away.
[laughter] So I don't have to feed him.
And I'm sorry that I got caught up in those 
gender stereotypes 
and that I'm feeding him at all anyway.
And I do enjoy that. I enjoy the cooking, but I 
feel so squashed by it.
And you seem to meet it with graciousness and 
open heartedness every time.
And there is a moment in this book that I--  I 
mean, literally my jaw dropped.
You are--  you are down in the depths of your 
sadness.
Do you know which moment I'm going to bust 
out?
>> I don't.
>> And your husband...
says...
>> Oh.
>> Would you make me some Thai noodles for 
lunch? 
And you say, 
"How lucky am I to be with this man who loves 
me so much 
that he knows that making Thai noodles"-- and 
I'm thinking...
I would leave someone if I was in bed crushed 
by depression and Karl called up,
"Hey, sweetie, make me some Thai noodles."
I would tie those Thai noodles-- [laughter]
Another problem I have, because this is really all 
about me,
[laughter]  I can only hold five or six meals in my 
mind.
I feel...  does anyone else have this problem?
You know, I can remember how to cook five or 
six things and then something will fall out of 
rotation.
And then-- but the expansiveness with which 
you seem to go to the kitchen every day 
and just make something new.
>> Well, a lot of that is-- 'cause another part for 
me that I'm hoping 
people will pull out of the book is that I think the 
shopping is part of the cooking.
And so, you know, I'll go down to the butcher 
and he'll say, 
"You know, look I-- we just got this great pork 
shoulder 
or have you ever cooked lamb neck and--"
>> And your answer to that question?
>> And my answer to lamb necks is I've only 
done it once. It was really tedious.
You got to--  you got a recipe for me?
And, you know, you go to the cheese shop and, 
the cheese guy will say--  
actually at the moment he's really excited about 
all of the great cheeses coming out of Missouri.
You know, and he'll say, "This is a great cheese 
place and they make this cheese", and you go, 
"Well, okay."
So I've got this cheese. What do you think I 
should do with it?
And I'm constantly getting recipes from other 
people.
Stand at the produce counter, you talk to the 
farmer, go to the Farmer's Market 
and they've got beautiful shiseido peppers and 
you say, "What do you do with these?"
So there's a lot of other people just sort of giving 
me suggestions.
>> But that's open heartedness on your part.
I mean, it's being open minded and open hearted 
to see what's there, to ask, to interact.
>> Well see, part of what I'm hoping this book is 
about is that--
and I think why people get tired of cooking and 
why--
when I was at "Gourmet", it’s 7:15 and Michael 
would be saying, 
"When are we going to eat dinner?" Oh, I've got 
to get out of here.
I've got to go home and make dinner and you'd 
get dinner on the table as fast as possible 
because everybody's starving.
And we do all this results based cooking. You 
know, it's all about the result.
And in this year that I got to spend in the 
kitchen, 
I got to have the journey instead of the result.
And, you know, part of what I realized, I made a 
lot of mistakes. I cooked a lot of bad food.
>> You didn't mention that. 
>> I didn't mention that. [laughter]
>> But, you know, that's writing, too. I write a 
novel, I write a lot of bad pages.
I don't include them in any appendix. This is the 
junk that I wrote that didn't turn out so well.
>> But a lot of these recipes are the result of, 
you know, something like I have this eggplant 
salad I really like 
and it took me three or four tries to figure out 
how much lime I really liked in it, 
or that I really wanted to use palm sugar instead 
of brown sugar that it really tasted better.
But, you know, that was, you know... to me... 
it doesn't matter if everything doesn't come out 
okay.
You know, everybody says, "Oh, you should 
never cook anything new for a dinner party 
'cause oh, my God, you might give your guest a 
bad meal." So what?
[laughter] They didn't come to have dinner, they 
came to be with you, and...
even the greatest cook in the world is going to 
make something bad once in a while.
>> That's very comforting. Okay, talk to us 
about Thanksgiving and the turkey.
We know each other from "Gourmet."
We met when you first got that job. I was one of 
the first people you hired, I think, right?
>> Yes, because we were on book tour at the 
same time.
>> Yeah.
>> And I said you could--  if you could write "The 
Magician's Assistant"--
>> You could write about kale. [laughter]
So every year you had to invent a new way to 
cook turkey.
You tell the turkey story because it's a great 
story.
>> Okay. So before I got to "Gourmet" I was the 
food editor of the "Los Angeles Times", 
and, you know, it's like every food editor,
every food magazine editor every year you've got 
to come up 
with some fantastic new way that's going to 
excite your readers,
some fabulous new way to do turkey.
And you worry about it all year.
>> Do you remember when-- I know you 
remember when there was Satan in the turkey?
>> When there was-- Yes! 
>> That was huge.
>> Yes. 
We had a beautiful turkey on the cover and 
somebody saw Satan. [laughter]
And once you'd seen it you couldn't not see it. 
[laughter] I mean, I saw it.
I definitely saw it. We got tons of mail.
>> That was great.
Okay, back to the turkey.
>> But when I was with the "L.A. Times"--  So I 
really like the stuffing cooked inside the turkey.  
The problem with cooking the stuffing inside the 
turkey is you have this big mass of stuffing
that's shielded by, not just the turkey breast, but 
also the bone.
And because all the juices go in, it's got to get 
to 165 degrees to be safe.
It's a problem. The only way to get all that 
stuffing 
inside the turkey safe is to basically overcook 
the turkey.
So one year I had the brilliant notion oh, we will 
stuff the stuffing underneath the skin.
And I persuaded all of Los Angeles-- [laughter] 
to stuff--
>> You didn't just take yourself down.
>> I-- stuff the stuffing-- 
Do you know how hard it is to stuff stuffing 
underneath the turkey skin? [laughter]
It is a nightmare. I mean, no sane person would 
do it twice.
So what I ended up saying was, after all these 
years of brining the turkey, 
you do it with miso, you do a thousand different 
ways to cook a turkey, 
I have come to the notion that forget about the 
turkey.
What you really want to do is you want to make 
a mountain of gravy because the gravy really 
matters.
You want to make wonderful side dishes, really 
delicious stuffing,
you want to make pies. You want to really 
concentrate on those, 
and you just want to use the high heat method 
which is you put salt and pepper on the turkey, 
you put it in the oven at 450, and an hour and a 
half later 
you take it out and you don't have to think about 
it.
>> And is it really better or as good?
>> It is really good.
You will never have a better turkey.
>> Okay. But then you brine a chicken--
later in the book.
>> Right.
[laughter] 
>> Is that a conflict?
>> Brining--  brining a chicken first of all is a lot 
easier than brining a turkey.
>> It doesn't involve your bathtub.
>> It doesn't involve your bathtub and, 
you know, packets of ice and garbage bags. And 
it's much quicker.
And you cook a lot more chicken than you cook 
turkey.
Turkey we, basically in America, cook once a 
year.
Chicken you cook a lot and also, this is a 
chicken you're gonna grill.
So you're going to subject it to the grill,
 which means that it's hard not to dry it out on a 
grill.  So it's worth--  it's worthwhile. It is. 
>>  All right.
The thing that I've always thought about you in 
the years that I have known you,
and in the years that our paths have crossed at 
different events,
is you have always struck me as the most 
overemployed person I've ever known.
And I think I've even said that to you before. You 
have more jobs than anyone.
>> I used to.
>> Well-- used to, but this is all part of the 
point.
You have a very full career as a writer. I mean, 
you do as much as a writer as I do as a writer.
And that's the only thing I do. 
>> You have a bookstore.
>> I haven't had it for very long. In the course of 
knowing you for all of these years, I didn't have a 
bookstore.
You have a huge presence on the lecture circuit 
which we both do,
where you go out and you give talks and you 
make money and you do that.
You had a television show. You had "Gourmet."
You were always writing articles and things on 
the side.
You just always seemed to be going in ten 
different directions.
Doing every direction really, really well. 
So it's interesting to me that the great crisis 
about this book is that you've lost a job.
Because you still had a lot of them.
>> I wasn't sure I did. I mean, part of what this 
was about was, 
you know, I've worked since I was 16. I went 
from one job to another, never looked for a job.
I mean, the jobs kind of-- I wrote a cookbook 
and then people thought I was a food writer and 
it was just like the jobs came to me.
And I really--  you know, I was Ruth Reichl, 
editor of "Gourmet," 
I was Ruth Reichl, restaurant critic of the "New 
York Times" and suddenly I was-- 
 I didn't have a--  
anything after my name. I was just Ruth Reichl.
>> Famous writer doesn't--
>> And...I was 62.
And I really thought nobody's going to hire me 
ever again.
I'm never gonna get another job. And I really 
didn't know if I wasn't--
if I didn't have all those things after my name, 
who was I?
And, you know, the truth was, I didn't get-- 
people were calling me up and saying, 
“Oh, we'd really like you to come teach this 
course or write this.”
I mean, there was this deafening silence for 
quite a while after "Gourmet" closed.
And I was scared. I was really scared.
One of the things that cooking did for me was 
reground me and make me feel like okay,
and make me feel like okay, there's a core of me 
that doesn't need the Ruth Reichl comma.
>> Right.
>> And I needed--  I needed to re-learn that.
I mean, I needed to feel like if I didn't have a job I 
was still a worthwhile person.
But, you know, I mean,
I didn't just lose a job and go out, you know, I 
lost--  we were a family.
That was a very tight group of people working at 
a magazine.
Almost--  I think we all loved our job.
I mean, we all--  we had a lot of fun doing it.
The people at "Gourmet" that had worked there 
for 35 years.
And they all lost their job on my watch.
And it felt--  so it wasn't just me. It was like...
all these people lost their jobs. And I felt like it 
was my fault, that I should have seen it coming.
I should have been able to do something to save 
it.
I spent a lot of time thinking about, what could I 
have done, you know? Why didn't I do?
Why wasn't I nicer to "Si" Newhouse? Why 
didn't I manage up better?
>> I could answer that question. [laughter]
Lots of reasons not to be nicer to "Si" 
Newhouse. [chuckle]
>> And so I spent a lot of time just thinking. And 
the magazine... 
survived for 69 years, so it closes on my watch.
So I felt really-- like-- I really failed. This was the 
first time I failed at something.
>> Okay. So you had a whole stretch of the 
dark night of the soul to think about this, 
and there's an incredible winter in this piece 
that's something out of 
"Little House on the Prairie" where Ruth and her 
husband just get snowed in 
and they're eating cabbage and it's--  it's very, 
very bleak. [chuckle]
And you're thinking about this. It happened on 
your watch.
What was your conclusion? 
Did you--  when digging through all of your files 
of the past, 
could you say, "Yeah, I should have taken that a 
separate way?"
>> No. What I said--  in the end was, 
we made the best magazine we knew how to 
make.
>> The best magazine anybody made.
>> And we-- I'm proud of what we did.
And, you know, if I could have saved the 
magazine, if I had done--
I wouldn't have done something else.
>> Right. 
>> But I needed to get to that place of, 
you know, saying, we did a good thing here. 
>> Yeah.
Well, good.  I feel better. I feel better knowing 
that part of it.
>> But it took a while to get to that place.
>> Sure, that makes sense. 
And, you know, there's this moment where--
so, you know, I-- the magazine closes but I have 
to go on book tour, 
which was the weirdest time of my life, you 
know. The next day I have to get on a plane--   
>> For a "Gourmet" book no less.
>> For a "Gourmet" book that I don't get a 
penny from 
and Michael is going, “You're crazy. Why are 
you doing this?”
But I was contractually obligated to do it, and so 
I went off.
And so by the time I got back to New York, 
everybody else had left. 
My office was the only office that hadn't been 
packed up yet 
because everybody else had packed up their 
stuff and left.
And I come into this "Gourmet" office,
that is every other magazine at Conde Naste 
has come and looted the place 
and there are dying plants and I actually put the 
scene in the kitchen.
I exaggerated it but I put it into "Delicious!," that 
they had locked the doors but left all the food 
there.
So the kitchens were filled with rotting food. 
[chuckle] And... 
it was the most depressing-- that was really-- 
you know, I talk about the dark night of the soul, 
being in there alone in that office was really 
grim.
And then my four best friends come swoop in 
and say--
they fly across the country from LA and say you 
can't be here alone.
And it was this amazing moment for me.
I'll never forget it, that they came and it was like 
we sorta had a pajama party for a week.
They said you can't pack your office up alone. 
This is crazy.
We're going to do this together.
And meanwhile we're going to take you out 
shopping and, 
you know, that was one of those moments 
where 
it was like, "Oh, okay. I have some value. I have 
friends." [chuckle]
>> It's really hard to sit up here and hear you 
say something like oh, and I have some value,
and I think you, you, more value than anyone.
What was the best job you ever had in your life?
>> "Gourmet." I mean, it was--  it was 
extraordinary.
I mean, they basically came to me and said 
make--
make the best magazine you can. 
And I said, "You know, are you sure? 
Because I don't think I'm gonna do anything that 
you really love."
So I said no, I know what you did at the "LA 
Times" with that food section 
and I want you to do it with "Gourmet." And they 
let me hire the best people.
They let me hire you and they gave us money 
and I said, "You know, here's the deal.
I'm not going to do focus groups and I don't like 
to be micromanaged so,
you know, if I don't-- if you don't like what I'm 
doing fire me but don't come in and start 
tweaking it." And nobody gets to do that 
anymore.
It was a dream.
>> And it's funny, because what you're saying is 
also a good description of your book.
It's not about what other people want or how 
other cookbooks are structured 
or what anybody is eating now or doing now. It's 
you.
It's the force of your personality and your vision 
and what you're wanting to do.
>> Well, thank you.
>> And you're finding it equally strong response 
to the book.
>> I'm so moved by the response to the book 
really. I didn't anticipate-- you know--
>> Which has been out for two days?
>> Two days.
>> Really good two days. [laughter] Super two 
days.
>> But, you know, my agent and I were calling 
this the "little book".
We didn't have big plans for it. 
And it's just really nice that people are 
responding to it in such a good way.
Which is like very much what happened at 
"Gourmet," you know.
You know, my publishers kept saying, "You 
can't run a piece about David Foster Wallace 
about what lobsters feel when they go into the 
pot. Nobody wants to hear that."
>> Let's talk about that. [laughter] Do you know 
what we're talking about?
"Consider the Lobster" which then became the 
title of a book of essays that David wrote.
Do you think that piece had any connection to 
the demise of the magazine?
>> No. [laughter]
>> Okay. Well, because people have said that.
>> I know. 
>> It's sort of tagged--
>> No. People have absolutely said that, you 
know, we stretched too far 
and were too ambitious and-- no.
When the magazine closed it had its highest 
circulation in its history 
and its highest renewal rate. So it wasn't the 
editorial product that killed that.
And in fact, we got-- I mean, and my publisher, 
he knew that I was going to write a memoir 
about it, 
he said, "I wanna give you the stack of letters 
we got on our side  
about the David Foster Wallace piece, and it's 
hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of letters.
And they're really positive. They're actually 
people saying, 
thank God there's a magazine that doesn't talk 
down to us.
And, you know, there were people who didn't like 
it, but nobody said cancel my subscription.
>> Did he care? Was he involved or interested in 
the fallout? One way or another?
Do you remember?
>> Not that I know of.
>> He and I had a huge fight. I wasn't his editor 
on it but he had some piece--
stuff in the footnotes about PETA that I said, “I 
can't live with this. It has to go.”
And Jocelyn said, "And he won't budge. You've 
got to talk to him."
And I talked to him and said, "You know, I'm 
sorry, they're crazy. I mean, this has to go.
I can't live with this." And we argued about it.
And he said, Well, I'm gonna pull the piece." 
And I said, "Fine. You can absolutely do it.
Anybody will publish this. It's a brilliant piece of 
writing. 
'The New Yorker' will take it, 'Harpers' will take it. 
The 'Atlantic Monthly' will take it, 
but if you want the people who cook lobsters to 
read it, you will publish it in 'Gourmet'."
>> Wow. Good for you.
>> And he--  he caved.
>> Wow, what did he say about PETA?
>> He was very admiring of them. They were--  it 
was wonderful stuff, 
wonderful people because he had gone to them 
about the lobster stuff.
Meanwhile they were at the same time like 
firebombing people's house-- homes,
chefs who used foie gras and I said, "I 
understand that you like them,
but I am not gonna put in 'Gourmet' that these 
are wonderful people. I'm sorry. Won't do it."
>> Which makes me think two things. One, I've 
been with David Foster Wallace while I ate a 
Philly cheese steak, 
which I have a hard time making that leap.
And two, I used to write for "Vogue" at the same 
time and
the security that they had around PETA was 
unbelievable.
Because they would come in and throw blood on 
the receptionists and that sort of thing. 
Buckets of red paint actually. They didn't throw 
blood on them.
>> But it was-- for me it was an important fight 
because
I had never articulated before
the notion that it was really important for pieces 
like this to be 
aimed at cooks and it informed a lot of what I did 
down the road.
And every time somebody would say to me, we 
did a lot of investigative pieces, 
we did the first pieces about why fish farming is 
a bad idea and,
you know, we did various pieces about tomato 
slaves which is--
>> Yeah. 
>> And, you know, every time somebody would 
say to me--   
an epicurean magazine is not a place for this, 
I would come back with the David Foster 
Wallace argument, 
which is, this is precisely the place for it. We 
need to give people 
the tools to make intelligent choices about the 
food that they're buying.
And if not here, where?
One of the things that makes me so sad is that 
you aren't able to read articles like this 
in many publications but not-- the epicurean 
magazines have all 
shied away from it and gone to, you know, fluff 
and recipes and travel.
Just nothing of any seriousness makes its way 
in there. I think it's--
in a time when our food system is so 
challenged, it's really pernicious. Sorry.
I didn't mean to go off on this.
>> But I think that that's--
that's what makes all of this so interesting. 
If you could have any job tomorrow, if you could 
be offered your dream job, what would that be?
I would remake "Gourmet." [laughter] In a 
heartbeat.
In a heartbeat. And try to get the staff back.
And I mean, it's just so much that--  there's so 
much interesting stuff going on around food.
So much more interesting stuff than was 
happening when--  
in '99 when I took the magazine over.
>> Is that possible?
>> I don't think in today's publishing atmosphere 
it is.
>> Okay.
>> We're dreaming.
>> Short of that, short of that, I mean, would 
you ever edit books? Would you ever--
>> You know, I'm too-- I'm pretty happy writing 
and cooking.
And as long as I can keep making a living at it--
>> Yeah, I don't think you need another job. It's 
just if you think you need another job.
>> But, you know, never say never. 
You never know what-- what interesting things 
are out there.
>> I need to open this up to the audience, but I 
want to ask you just--
on a completely different note, you have that 
pot, that copper pot with your name on it.
And it's-- it was in the little "New York Times" 
video up on their website 
and it was in the very beginning of the book.
And I wanted to know three things. Where you 
got the pot.
What kind of gifts people usually give you, 
because that must be very interesting.
And in terms of either kitchen gadgetry or solid 
kitchen 
items, what do you cherish and find necessary?
>> Okay. I'm going to start with the pot.
>> Please do.
>> This is a ridiculous pot.
>> I-- I'm coveting that pot.
>> What you don't know about this pot.
>> Yeah?
>> It is not just a copper pot. 
It is a copper pot made by the only man who is 
a le meilleur de France, for copper.
That means he's got-- won the award as the 
best artisan in France as a copper maker.
And it is lined with sterling silver. [audience 
murmuring]
And I got the pot because a friend of mine was 
trying to buy that company
and she asked me if I would test the pot for her.
And so she--  she sent-- I didn't pay for the pot.
God knows what they cost.
>> How big is it?
>> It's-- well, I have two.
>> Of course you do.
>> A sauté pan, eight inch sauté pan and then 
about an eight inch saucepan, too.
I never use them. These are pots for rich people 
with servants.
Because you--  every time you use the pot--  it's 
fabulous because it's totally 
you know, when you turn the heat down it goes 
down instantly. 
It's totally responsive to temperature changes.
But every time you use it you have to polish the 
silver with one kind of polish 
and the copper with another. And I never use 
these pots. Ever. 
And what I said to her was, "You should buy the 
company.
These will be great for rich people who never 
cook, but who want the best."
And, you know, the kinds of people who buy, 
you know, Hermes bags for $50,000.
>> And $30,000 mattresses that they have in 
Town and Country.
>> Right.
And the stoves, the La Cornue stoves that cost 
a bazillion dollars.
"We'll all buy them as trophy gifts and it's 
brilliant.
It's a brilliant business plan, but as far as I'm 
concerned, you can have your pots back 
because I'll never use them." [laughter]
>> Except they've got your name on them.
>> I am not going--  and I ended up using them 
for the--
for the shoots a lot because they're-- they're 
much-- 
most of my pots are kind of dark inside and so 
they're--
they look very good on camera, which is why we 
used them.
But I never use them. And my--
>> I'm so glad I asked.
>> My basic belief about gadgets is they are 
utterly un--
it's so great not to be a magazine editor 
anymore because 
I was dying to say this the whole time I was at 
"Gourmet."
Of course you can't because all our advertisers 
are the people who are making 
the expensive stupid stoves. 
[laughter] I mean, I have the cheapest cheese 
stove you can buy in New York.
And a fancy stove in the--- I love my cheap 
stove. 
My fancy Wolf stove takes 20 minutes to get up 
to temperature.
My little GE you hit 350 and two minutes later it 
beeps. [laughter]
And you know, I think that the notion that you 
need fancy gadgets to cook is just nonsense.
You need like a great knife. You don't need a 
million great knives.
You need to go out and buy-- figure out what 
knife is good for your hand 
and buy one great knife.
You probably need a coffee grinder.
I have to admit, I use a coffeepot I've had for 30 
years.
I'm absolutely not a gadget person.
Probably the one gadget I love best in my 
kitchen is I have a little spice grinder 
that I use a lot of fresh spices and it's--  fresh 
spices make such a difference.
And I think it cost $39. But it's indispensable.
>> Okay. And gifts, what do people give you?
>> What do people give me? Well, somebody 
just sent me--
again, this was, he wanted me to test it but it 
was a great gift.
A pizza steel, one of those steels you put in 
your oven and heat up to-- 
you put it-- your oven at 500. 
>> What used to be a pizza stone?
>> It's steel, which gets your oven-- I mean, the 
like you put that pizza on there 
and it cooks in seven minutes. It's just fantastic. 
I really love it.
So people tend to give me, you know, things 
that are new fangled kind of gadgets.
Mostly useless. But the pizza steel is--
>> I would just think that you get a lot of 
presents.
Do you get food presents?
>> Yeah, people give me things that they've 
made.
They might bring me a piece of beautiful cheese 
that they found somewhere.
I mean, a lot of-- I made this jam kind of thing.
>> That's nice.
>> It is nice.
>> I'm friends with Renee Fleming and I-- I 
bought a pair of black leather gloves once 
and after I bought them I realized that they were 
made by a company called Renee.
So I brought them to her. I just bought these 
gloves, I really want you to have them.
Look, they say Renee. And she said, Black 
leather gloves?
Are you kidding me? [laugh] Do you know how 
many people bring me black leather gloves 
every single day of my life?"
I said, "No." And she was like, "That's what you 
give opera singers."
Just in case you were wondering, you give them 
black leather gloves, long ones.
They have millions of them. [laughter] 
Okay. Friends.
We will answer questions. I beg of thee, make 
them questions. [laughter]
Don't be that crazy person who just stands up 
and rambles on and on. [laughter]
I know that that person isn't there tonight, but I 
like to say it anyway.
>> Now you've scared everybody out of asking 
questions.
>> I have, but not her. 
>> Afraid they're going to be the crazy person. 
>> Because she knows she's not crazy.
AUDIENCE MEMBER: Oh, I'm crazy. [laughter]
Where do you find the joy in food when your 
husband's diabetic, lactose intolerant, and
you have a steady diet of green beans and 
shredded cardboard and shattered glass?
[laughter] Where do you find the joy in food 
when those--  you have those kind--  
>> Well do you have to eat the same food he 
eats? 
AUDIENCE MEMBER: It's easier.
>> Would he care if you didn't?
AUDIENCE MEMBER: No, I-- I cook for him. 
Unlike--  I like to cook for my husband.
But, you know, I'm just wondering where can I 
find some inspiration 
where I can't use the dairy products, I can't use, 
you know, all the sugar and all of that stuff.
So I'm just wondering what can I do to bring the 
joy back to cooking?
>> That's a really good question. Because even 
if what we're missing is not that thing, 
I think almost everybody has these blackouts 
now. 
>> Right.
>> My husband's gone low carb, I'm a 
vegetarian.
Ah! It's hard.
Well, I mean, I think you find the--  one, you 
know, farmer's markets were made for you.
You go to a Farmer's Market and just find the 
most beautiful vegetables.
You can do amazing stuff with beautiful fresh 
vegetables.
And I mean, for me, the joy in this would be the 
challenge of okay, 
how do I, you know, start substituting tofu for 
cheese.
AUDIENCE MEMBER: Can't do the tofu thing. I 
just don't think I can do tofu. [laughter]
Do you like it?
>> I do. I love it.
AUDIENCE MEMBER: Okay. For you, I'll give it 
a try. [laughter]
>> Actually Ma Po Tofu is-- it's in the book and 
it's probably something we eat once a week.
>> It's all about what's next to it. I mean, tofu on 
its own. It's nothing.
>> It is nothing. That's-- it's kind of a palate, it's 
just like asking you to be creative with it.
>> The first piece I ever wrote for you, which I 
think was in the first issue on the back page
and it was called, "Let Them Eat Kale".  
And it was about having a dinner party in which 
you have the lactose guest, 
you have the carb guest, you have the no sugar 
guest, 
the no meat guest and that one by one every 
single thing is eliminated except for kale.
>> I'll have to tell you that in writing this 
"Gourmet" memoir, 
I'm not sure it will stay in the book, but I actually 
used that 
because I mean, who would have known in 1999 
that kale would be the--  the coolest food?
>> I know. I didn't even eat kale back then and 
now kale is the centerpiece of my existence.
But also back then, I didn't know how-- 
how bad it was going to get in terms of having 
people over.
I mean, what do you do at Thanksgiving when 
you have 20 people over and they all have 
some little weirdness? 
>> They're on their own. [laughter]
>> No catering. No catering to weirdness.
>> No, I'm going to make a mountain of food 
and you'll eat what you can eat.
But I don't think that you can let people start 
dictating what your menu is.
It's different if you have illness, but, 
you know, my son has, you know, half his 
friends are Vegans. Well, you know,
they'll pick around the table and eat what they 
can.
>> You know, that was a question I didn't ask 
you. 
Talk briefly about Nick and the fact that he only 
ate white things.
>> Yes.
>> Son of most famous food person in America.
>> Everybody thought it was hilarious. I had a 
kid who only ate five white foods.
And, you know, he would give up one and if he 
took up a new one, he would give up another 
one.
He's just very-- limited diet.
I have really strong feelings about kid food and 
what a bad job we do with it in America.
And I thought long and hard, and I said to his 
doctor, "Do I have to worry about this?"
The child has never eaten a fruit or a vegetable. 
And she said, "No sane child ever starved 
himself to death. He's perfectly healthy. Relax."
And I did. And so it was like, you know, we will 
sit at the table and Nick will eat, 
you know, whatever white thing he can find on 
our table that 
will make him happy and he-- we will eat dinner 
and he will see that we get a lot of pleasure out 
of it.
And we are not going to make dinner into a 
nightmare of you are going to eat your kale!
And at some point food will kick in for him. And 
at nine, suddenly he became an omnivore.
And interestingly I was on stage two nights ago 
with Martha Stewart and--
who for some reason decided to talk about her 
grandchildren and the food that they ate.
She's very proud of the fact. Her grandchildren, 
they have never eaten sugar of any kind.
Never had juice. They only eat--  they drink 
water and 2% milk 
and they have the most wonderful wide ranging 
palates.
They love sardines and tofu and she went on 
and on.
And these kids are 3 and 6. And all I could think 
was, boy--
>> Just wait.
>> The reckoning is coming. [laughter]
These kids are going to be out there scarfing up 
all the sugar they can get when they're not at 
home.
>> And how dare that the woman who brought 
us Christmas cookies extols the virtue of not 
having one.
>> Well this is not her rules. This is her--  this is 
her daughter's rules.
>> Okay.
>> But she said they've never eaten sugar.
>> Damn.
>> And I just thought, you know, you really don't 
want to be a food Nazi with your kids.
>> You heard it here first.
Yes.
AUDIENCE MEMBER: So I'm wondering with 
your joy in actually doing the cooking 
and your years as a critic, what is like to eat out 
at restaurants 
and are there things that drive you crazy in 
today's restaurants? 
>> Good question.
>> There are lots of things that drive me crazy in 
today's restaurant.
The first one being noise. I mean, it's just 
ridiculous that you go to these restaurants 
and shout at each other, which makes it very 
unpleasant.
And actually, it's really a pleasure not to be-- I'm 
not a natural critic.
I mean, my default isn't, "Oh, let me find out 
what's wrong with all of this food."
And so it's really nice to go out and just enjoy 
the experience, 
not have this voice in my head saying, "Oh, 
we've got to be thinking about, 
is this the best risotto you ever made, is it two 
minutes overcooked?" 
And just be there and enjoy the food.
So I love not being a restaurant critic anymore. 
[chuckle]
>> Something that I don't know if you told me 
this or if I read it in "Garlic and Sapphires" 
about your purse that had the baggies in it. Was 
that in the book?
>> I don't know. I might have just told you.
>> Well, just tell them.
>> So, you know, for years as a restaurant 
critic, 
you don't want-- I mean, I never wanted to eat 
every bite on my plate. 
I mean, I didn't want to turn into a giant person, 
which is a problem when you're eating 
12 meals a week out and they tend to be multi 
course meals.
And if I loved food I would probably eat it all. But 
a lot of the time you don't.
And you don't want the chef to come screaming 
out of the kitchen 
and go, "Why did you send this full plate back?"
So I always carried plastic bags in my 
pocketbook 
and when nobpdy was looking I would just slide 
the food into the bag. [laughing]
>> Making other people in your family really 
happy.
Yes.
AUDIENCE MEMBER: So you seem like you're 
really open to a lot of different foods.
What's the worst thing anybody ever served you 
that you just couldn't go near?
>> I've been served a lot of horrible foods. But 
when Wylie Dufresne first opened WD50 
in New York he served a dish of whole 
langoustines with cinnamon on them.
And the combination just-- I couldn't swallow it. I 
mean, it was just--
And I actually--  I didn't know what to do. And I 
didn't have a plastic bag with me. [laughter]
And I just-- I just sort of surreptitiously threw it 
under my seat. [laughter]
>> I love it. Even when something is super 
disgusting, 
you're trying to figure out how to be polite about 
it.
>> Well I just didn't want to say, "Whoa, this is 
a bad combination." [laughter]
>> Yes.
AUDIENCE MEMBER: Do you have trouble like 
truly enjoying the food that you prepare?
Like for example, when I cook food I'm 
constantly thinking about how I could make it 
better,
how I-- you know, whatever and the people 
around me have said things like, 
"We're not enjoying what you've just prepared for 
us because you're picking it apart so much."
>> I pretty much don't do that.
[laughter] 
>> It's really just you.
AUDIENCE MEMBER: I'm saying that more for 
me. Maybe I need to tone it down.
>> You know, sometimes when I've made 
something that I really think is a mistake,
I can be sitting there cringing and hoping that 
nobody notices that I'm cringing. [laughter]
But mostly once the food gets out on the table, I 
just relax into it.
I mean, one of the smartest things anyone ever 
said to me about food, and I really try and
keep this as my mantra, is, 
what's the point of knowing a lot about food if all 
it does is make you not enjoy it?
>> The same is true for literature. 
>> Yes, yes. [chuckle]
And, you know, I mean, there is no point in 
making yourself an expert in this so you're just 
saying, 
"Well, the olive oil I had three weeks ago is a lot 
better than this olive oil." [laughter]
>> Yes.
AUDIENCE MEMBER: When you need an 
escapist read what do you choose?
>> Oh, I actually do-- I read widely and I'm not 
so proud of some of my literary choices.
I mean, I just finished on the plane-- I listen to a 
lot of audio books.
I was listening to Carl Hiaasen, which was like, 
just enormous fun.
And-- but I-- I also-- 
I like Jojo Moyes and-- probably not something I 
would shout to the world,
but I've probably read everything she's written.
>> That's good.
>> Yeah.
>> There was a question right over here. Did you 
have a question? Yes.
AUDIENCE MEMBER: If I can be greedy I have 
two.
I'm assuming, correct me if I'm wrong, that you 
develop your recipes yourself.
You said you get them from a lot of people.
>> Right.
AUDIENCE MEMBER: But when you-- I have a 
tendency to change recipes.
I'm considering myself a good--  a great cook 
actually. Wouldn't you say? [laughter]
But I've always-- I always change recipes just a 
little bit.
For instance, I'm-- I don't think sugar is a huge 
culprit, I really don't.
I don't overdo it but I always cut that back. I 
think American recipes are too sweet.
But that's one question. Do you change recipes 
that people give you?
>> Oh, all the time. And part of what I want from 
this book is I'm saying, change them.
Don't-- don't make them this way. Make them 
your way.
Take these recipes and make them yours.
AUDIENCE MEMBER: The other question I had 
for you, is talking about gadgets.
I used to have 75 cookbooks and take them in 
bed and read them.
I got thrown out of my house once, long story, 
and they were all in my trunk and got 
waterlogged.
I love cookbooks but I finally pared them down, 
but I was a gadgets freak.
I was at my daughter's house, she has a 
mandoline. Do I need one of those?
>> No, you don't. [laughter] And I will tell you,
I will tell you, they are the scariest things in any 
kitchen.
And when we tested-- we did-- we used to do 
this thing at "Gourmet" where we would test 
all kinds of gadgets and say which was the 
best.
When we did mandolines, every single cook got 
cut.
And I-- I have one. I don't use it. It scares the-- 
scares--
AUDIENCE MEMBER: Well, it kind of scared 
myself. What's that? It's a mandoline.
And it looks dangerous.
>> And I happen to know someone who took his 
palm off. [audience murmurs]
>> Mmm, mmm, mmm. Next question. 
[laughter] 
Yes?
AUDIENCE MEMBER: What other cookbook 
authors do you like?
>> Can I just say, if you come by Parnassus 
Books, 
Ruth was there this afternoon and I said go into 
the kitchen-- go into the kitchen?
Go into the cookbook section and pull what you 
like.
I want you to answer the question, but as of 
tomorrow we're going to have a fantastic display 
of cookbooks Ruth likes.
>> Lots of them. I would say the cookbook 
writer who was probably most seminal to me 
and who my style follows anything, is Elizabeth 
David.
She's the cook who just sort of gives you 
suggestions. She doesn't--
she doesn't tell you, you need X amount of this 
and--
There is a French author who I think everybody 
should have his books.
Unfortunately I think only one is translated into 
English. Edouard de Pomiane. 
And there's a book called "Cooking in Ten 
Minutes." 
He was a scientist in Paris who had a radio 
show in the 30's,
and he has the most sensible advice on cooking 
you will ever have.
And he makes everything seem incredibly easy. 
And he sort of explains it scientifically but in a 
lovely way.
>> This is a book we can still get?
>> Yes.
“French Cooking in Ten Minutes”.
>> Are you on this? Okay.
>> It's just a fantastic--
>> It sounds really, really good. 
>> He just does things like, you know, 
everybody should have some boiled potatoes 
in their refrigerator because then, you know, you 
can get your potatoes made in no time at all.
Just put them in a little oil. He has a recipe for 
tomatoes--
you take whole tomatoes and prick them and 
cook them in a little bit of butter 
and you just keep turning them and pushing on 
them and in the end you pour some cream over 
it 
and they're incredibly delicious if you've got good 
tomatoes and it's nothing, right?
Marcella Hazan never ever let's you down. Her 
recipes work really well.
Paula Wolfert. Another person. About the only 
person I ever met who has a perfect palate.
I mean she's got an amazing palate and her 
books are fantastic.
Mary Cunningham's breakfast book.
>> What does that mean?
>> What?
>> To have a perfect palate. I know what perfect 
pitch means.
But I don't know what perfect--
>> Well, you know like Billie in "Delicious!",
my character. Paula is the only person I've ever 
met who can taste something and tell you
 what is in it, you know. Just pull the flavors 
apart.
>> Okay.
>> I'm not sure she can anymore since she's 
suffering from Alzheimer's.
She's remarkable and those books are 
beautifully researched.
Dorie Greenspan's baking books are fantastic.
And probably you know my go to book, the 
"Gourmet" cookbook. 
The yellow one, it's-- I didn't write it, I just edited 
it, but it's a really good book.
>> It is a really good book.
Yes.
AUDIENCE MEMBER: Me?"
>> You.
AUDIENCE MEMBER: What is your most 
memorable meal, 
whether at home or out, and what made it so 
memorable? 
>> Okay, the meal that probably changed my 
life, 
my first husband and I got married at a time 
when nobody got married in the '60s.
We got married so we could take all our 
presents back and 
go to Europe for as long as possible. [laughter]
And so, you know, we-- this is when you really 
could be in Europe on $2 a day.
And so we stayed for months. But one of our 
professors, 
had moved to Crete and as a wedding present
he said, "You can come and stay with me in 
Crete for as long as you want."
And he had this great place, and I was-- and the 
deal was, I would sort of cook for all of us 
and we were there for a while. And one day he 
said, we're going to go--
we're going to go take a walk and we went up 
this mountain 
and we came to this hut and this beautiful sort 
of stone hut with a porch on it.
And this, you know, sort of old lady came out 
and she filled a dish with olive oil 
from her own trees and she went and picked 
wild herbs on the mountain side 
and sprinkled it in and she picked some 
tomatoes from her garden 
and sliced that on a plate with onions and 
brought out a loaf of bread she'd baked.
A big crusty loaf of bread. And got-- left a bottle 
of wine from her neighbor that he'd made 
himself.
And she said, you know, eat bread and 
you know, tomatoes and onions and have some 
wine. I'm going fishing.
And she came back with fish and she built a fire 
out of olive wood and brushed the fish 
with olive oil and sprinkled them with wild herbs 
and grilled them.
And for dessert we had yogurt made from the 
milk of her own sheep.
And, you know, this is 1970.
So American food was in a very different place 
than it is today.
And it was the first time I had ever had food that 
was absolutely of its place.
I mean, everything had come from right there.
And I realized, I can go back to New York and I 
can replicate.
I mean, I can get a fish and I can grill it, but it 
won't be this.
It won't-- it won't taste like this and it was for me 
this moment of 
one, simple food is what I like best
and two, there really is this notion of 
food that comes from right where it was grown is 
going to taste better 
than anything that we could at that point get in 
America.
And it changed my idea of what a great meal 
was.
>> There will be no more questions because 
that was the perfect, perfect final question.
[applause] 
Can I say one thing before we go?
I bought seven copies of this book today.
This is a book that you're going to want and 
want to give to people.
It's really extraordinary. We're so lucky to have 
you here.
So go buy books. Get in line.Say hello. Have 
them signed.
Have a great night. Thank you.[applause]
>> Thank you, you've been a great audience.
[music]
