All right welcome tonight AG arts is
delighted to sponsor Sandor Katz AG arts
was the brainchild of Fred Kirschenmann
from the Leopold Center and it began
about five years ago in his living room
with about 30 people in attendance in a
potluck dinner we came together to
explore the intersection of Arts and
agriculture and found Iowa State the
perfect place to do this since then the
group has been very active sponsoring
plays dances exhibits lectures and
panels and books discussion groups AG
arts is now an official student
organization but it draws an audience
from not only students but faculty and
staff across campus and members of the
community and during the last year
there's been a momentum to make AG arts
a national organization artists
galleries and farming organizations from
around the U.S. are all coalescing
around the AG arts energy so stay tuned
and sign up if you'd like to be on our
newsletter mailing list there's going to
be a pad for email addresses names and
email addresses at the book table by a
book by Sandor Katz book and then sign
our list that's the no sign our list by
a well any order so Sandor Katz or
Sandor Kraut as he is affectionately
known is himself a ball of energy the
epitome of a cool guy he's a great food
writer and book artist and AG Arts
fermentation guru of the world with his
book wild fermentation now a classic in
the culinary field his latest book is
the art of fermentation the most
comprehensive guide to do-it-yourself
fermentation ever published and he has
just one this is a big deal the James
Beard Award yay he has given ya
[audience applauds]
he has given workshops and talks all
around the world and we're lucky to have
him at a workshop at ISU tomorrow the
workshop is full but you can come anyway
and and be on standby so to speak and
you need to talk to our president Chris
and he's down here in the front row and
he'll tell you where to go Katz will
also be giving another workshop at the
practical farmers conference of Iowa on
Friday at the Scheman building we thank
our sponsors who have joined in with us
tonight
food and human nutrition the culinary
science club practical Farmers of Iowa
sustainable agriculture student
association and committee on lectures
and we thank Sandor Katz for traveling
to us in the cold
let's give him a very warm welcome
[audience applauds]
all right look at this crowd okay so can you
all can all hear me okay
even in the back great okay so first I
just want to do a little informal poll
and get a sense of how many of you think
that you have eaten some kind of
fermented food or drunk some sort of a
fermented beverage in the course of this
day okay so that's all it's a lot of you
but but but I'll actually bet that more
of you have had fermented foods and
beverages today then realized that
you've had fermented foods and beverages
and you know fermentation is so you know
sort of thoroughly a part of all of our
food traditions that the people just you
know eat products of fermentation drink
products of fermentation and have no
idea that they're doing so so so so
those of you like myself who start off
your day with a cup of coffee coffee is
fermented and many people have no idea
of that all bread is fermented cheese is
fermented
you know all of the cured meats that
people make sandwiches out of are our
fermented all of the condiments that
people put on those sandwiches if
they're not fermented themselves they
involve vinegar which is a product of
fermentation so so really you know most
people in most parts of the world you
know actually consume products of
fermentation every day and according to
you know one scholars estimate one-third
of all food that human beings put into
our mouths has been transformed by
fermentation before we eat it so what I
want to do is just sort of you know
start by addressing the question what is
fermentation anyway and then just try to
talk about you know why it's important
and and the ways in which it transforms
food so broadly speaking fermentation is
the transformative action of
microorganisms now you know those of you
who have a biology background might
already be shaking your heads you know
for biologists fermentation means
something much more specific than that
for a biologist fermentation means
anaerobic metabolism the production of
energy without oxygen and you know in
this sense actually the cells of our
bodies are capable of fermentation and
you know most of the foods and beverages
that are fermented are the products of
anaerobic processes and would meet the
biologists definition of fermentation so
you know the production of alcohol from
grapes or from honey or from barley or
from you know any other carbohydrate
rich substance is an anaerobic process
that does not require oxygen the
production of yogurt from from milk is
an anaerobic process that does not
require oxygen the production of
sauerkraut from cabbage is an anaerobic
process that does not require oxygen but
there are a handful of microbial e
transformed foods and beverages that are
what I call the oxymoronic ferments that
actually do require oxygen so some
examples of that would be kombucha
vinegar
temp a certain kinds of cheeses so I
just prefer to work with this broader
lay definition of a fermentation that
it's the transformative action of
microorganisms but of course not every
transformative action of microorganisms
results in something delicious that we
want to put into our mouths and in fact
most of the food that we discard the
food that we would call rotten or
spoiled you know we are rejecting it
precisely because of the transformative
action of microorganisms and we don't
call the food that we discard fermented
usually we reserved this word to
describe intentional or desirable
microbial transformations of our food
you know but the fact that we throw away
so much food maybe gives us a little bit
of insight into the inevitability of
microbial transformation of our food you
know all the things that make up our
food all of the plants all of the
animals all of the animal products are
populated by microorganisms and you know
if you eat these foods when they are
very fresh then the microorganisms don't
have much of a chance to transform them
but as time goes on the microorganisms
transform the food and there's a certain
inevitability to microbial
transformation of our food and I think
that this is why you know in culinary
traditions in every part of the world
people you know learned how to work with
this you know invisible force that
that's part of our food and so you know
millennia before we had microscopes and
the ability to identify and distinguish
between different kinds of
microorganisms
you know people learned a huge amount
about how to you know sort of guide the
the microbial transformation of food
really by manipulating environmental
conditions and I would say that the the
practice of fermentation you know
amounts to manipulations of
environmental conditions so as to ink
courage the growth of certain types of
organisms while simultaneously
discouraging the growth of other types
of organisms and you know I certainly
don't have you know comprehensive
knowledge of every culinary tradition
around the world but I've been looking
for about 15 years for a counter example
for a culinary tradition that does not
incorporate any kind of fermentation and
I haven't been able to find any and I
mean I think it would certainly be
possible to you know be a
hunter-gatherer without fermentation and
spend each day procuring the food
resources that are gonna get you through
that day but once you you know get
involved in you know putting away food
resources from today to eat tomorrow or
next week or next month or next year
you're inevitably getting into you know
the possibility of microbial
transformations of our food and that the
need to you know guide it in some way so
you know I mean the really miraculous
thing is that you know people figure I
mean all of the fermentation processes
that we know are ancient they're they're
prehistoric people have been practicing
them for longer than we've been you know
writing words on paper we really don't
know the origins of any fermented foods
or beverages although there's been a
huge amount of you know speculation
about it but they're all so old as to
sort of you know allude history and and
and we don't really know that the
origins of them okay I want to talk a
little bit about some of the ways in
which fermentation transforms foods so
okay I mean I'll guess I'll just start
by talking about alcohol and you know we
could talk about wine as a way of
preserving grape juice and and it is but
but wine is more than preserving grape
juice and you know everyone agrees that
alcoholic beverages are you know the
most ancient form of intentional
fermentation that's been practiced and
you know every kind of carbohydrate that
you know humanity produces has been
turned into alcoholic beverages I mean
in Central Asia they make alcoholic
beverages out of milk
so so we'll put alcohol aside and talk
about you know sort of some of the you
know let's say more more practical I
mean you know the production of alcohol
I guess we could call it you know a you
know there's a spiritual component to it
there's been a you know a huge amount of
ritual and ceremony organized around the
the production and the consumption of
alcoholic beverages but we'll put that
aside for now and and focus on you know
maybe some of the more utilitarian
benefits of fermentation so you know
prime among them is is preservation and
you know for us in the 21st century we
have a you know somewhat distorted
notions of food preservation because
we've all you know we've all grown up
with refrigeration with freezing canning
you know we even think of canning is an
old-time method of food preservation
when you know canning is almost exactly
200 years old it was invented you know
in in France I believe the year was 1809
in France they call they call canning up
parata's ation because the the fellow
who invented the process Nicolas Appert
you know is is as a national hero in
France so so canning is relatively new
in the scheme of things too so if you
took away your freezer and your
refrigerator you know and the ability to
heat processed food and and and can it
you know there are limited means of food
preservation
that existed 200 years ago and
fermentation is a very important one and
so you know a food like sauerkraut
you know actually has been a critical
survival food in many in many temperate
regions and and and vegetables are not
the only food that can be preserved but
by fermentation I mean really you know
cheese could be thought of as a form of
preserved milk and you know we're used
to putting cheese in the refrigerator
because we have it but if you know if we
were living without refrigeration you
know a block of cheddar cheese any kind
of hard cheese is the kind of food you
could live
for a while without refrigeration you
know also you know meat it's hard for us
to even to conceive of how you know what
you would do with meat if you didn't
have a refrigerator in a freezer well
I'm you know the restaurant where we
just ate I was staring at you know all
of these salami 's and hams hanging in
hanging at the counter from you know
from from strings just in the air and
the ambient temperature of the
restaurant so that's only possible you
know through fermentation so so so so
fermentation and specifically you know
the production of acids has been a
really critical means of preserving food
and and in many many regions of the
world I mean it just would be impossible
for humans to have settled those regions
without fermentation and and it remains
critical in in many many parts of the
world I mean for instance in in far
northern places and you know in in the
Arctic Circle
you know people survive by you know
hoarding fish in the summertime when the
waterways are accessible and mounding
them and in these huge mounds where you
know they ferment when the when the
temperatures are warm and they freeze
when the temperatures are cold but but
that's the survival food that gets
people through through the winter so so
you know this aspect of fermentation the
ability of fermentation to help preserve
food has just been you know critically
important for for survival in in many
many different places I wish I could
tell you that I got interested in in
fermentation for such practical reasons
and at a certain level I did because I
really started practicing fermentation
when I started keeping a garden and
realized that all the cabbages were at
the same time and you know was trying to
figure out what to do with it and
decided I should learn how to make
sauerkraut but really what first got me
interested in fermentation was the
flavor of fermentation and I think we
you know we have to recognize you know
the development of compelling flavors as
an important benefit of fermentation if
you walk into a gourmet food store
anywhere and look around and think about
the nature of the foods
we elevate on this pedestal they're
almost all products of fermentation you
have your cured meats you have your
cheeses you have your olives you have
your other kinds of pickles you have
chocolate you have coffee you have
vanilla you have condiments you know
condiments are all you know either
they're directly fermented like fish
sauce and soy sauce or else they use
vinegar as their stabilizing forces in
you know ketchup mustard mayonnaise
chutneys salsas etc so so fermentation
creates strong flavors but they're not
flavors that everybody loves I mean
they're really their acquired tastes and
so I mean I think that I think cheese
illustrates this really really well so
you know I'll bet in this room of people
who are self selected to come and you
know talk about fermentation there's
probably a you know a sizeable minority
of us who would identify with the
statement like the further away I can
smell a cheese the more excited I am to
eat it does anyone else in this room
share share that kind of a view with me
I see one guy in the back okay so so you
know maybe like I don't know two or
three percent of us so so fermentation
creates strong flavors and they're not
necessarily flavors that are that are
universally accessible they are they are
examples of acquired tastes and and and
they can be very compelling I mean you
know if we if we think of mastectomy
you know where we're fresh food is at
one end of it and rotten food spoiled
food is at the other end of it and we
really start teaching children from a
very young age you know what's
appropriate to put in your mouth what's
not and fresh food is good rotten food
is bad but the really interesting thing
about fermented foods and you know all
of these you know delicacies that fill
the shelves of gourmet food stores is
that they are neither fresh nor rotten
and and fermentation is sort of you know
working in this creative space between
fresh and and and rotten and it's in
this creative space that really the the
the highest delicacies in most culinary
tradition
as fall and you know III think it's I
mean there's a sometimes people want to
know like like how do you where is the
line between food that is fermented to
perfection and food that is rotten and
you know I'm not saying that that you
know all that it's entirely culturally
subjective but it is largely culturally
subjective and you know for people from
from parts of the world where cheese is
unknown the cheese doesn't have to be
really really stinky to you know sort of
make people feel afraid of it you know
too many people from parts of the world
where cheese is not commonly eaten any
kind of cheese just seems like rotten
milk and and yet to those of us who have
grown up around it and learned to love
it you know like there's nothing like it
like we we totally love it and and all
around the world there are examples like
this like the you know fermented fish of
the Arctic you know I've I've heard many
stories of people who've traveled to
that part of the world and couldn't
bring themselves to eat it and yeah and
then they watch like you know some small
child you know just chowing down on this
um you know fermented fish so no a
fermentation creates strong flavors
which can be compelling or can be
repellent what's getting many people
interested in fermentation at the
present moment is um perceived health
benefit so I want to talk a little bit
about how fermentation transforms foods
nutritionally and it's really hard to
generalize and you know if you know if
coffee is fermented and sauerkraut is
fermented and cheese is fermented and
bread is fermented like those foods do
not share you know the same nutritional
qualities so it's so it's pretty hard to
generalize about about fermentation but
fermentation does transform few foods in
you know sort of a few broad ways and I
and I want to just sort of discuss those
briefly and I'm gonna try to keep this
whole thing pretty brief so that we can
have have some questions and answers and
in an interactive time so um so I'd say
that there's four you know broad ways in
which firm it the process of
fermentation transforms foods
nutritionally number one I'll call
pre-digestion this is the idea that you
know while the food is fermenting what's
actually happening is that the
microorganisms are digesting nutrients
in the food and in the case of certain
you know dense compound nutrients that
can be difficult for us to digest the
fermentation breaks those those
nutrients down into simpler forms that
it's frequently easier for our bodies to
assimilate I think that the most vivid
illustration of this would be soy beans
you know the whole reason why the you
know the vegetarian subcultures of the
West adopted soy beans as an almost
singular replacement for meat and milk
is that it's considered to be the plant
food with the most concentrated protein
and you never hear about people you know
soaking soybeans you know cooking them
until they're soft and then sitting down
with a bowl of soy beans for dinner
and the reason you don't hear about
doing that is that they are utterly
indigestible you know they'll just
they'll just give you painful gas and
indigestion and you certainly won't be
able to get the protein out of the
soybeans and so you know the Asian
cultures the pioneered soy agriculture
developed all of these different ways of
fermenting the soy beans and some ways
of processing the soy beans that don't
involve fermentation but but some of the
soy ferments would be soy sauce miso
tempeh natto if you're familiar with
these foods they're really very
different from one another and flavor in
texture in fermentation organisms in the
length of fermentation but what they all
have in common is that that soy protein
gets broken down into amino acids which
are the building blocks of proteins and
so so this is an illustration of a pre
digestion breaking down some some dense
nutrient that can be difficult for us to
digest so the organs so that
microorganisms are doing it for us
similarly lacto
switch so many people have a hard time
digesting gets broken down by
fermentation even gluten gets broken
down not by a pure yeast fermentation
but by a bacterial fermentation that
happens in a mixed culture like a
sourdough or natural leavening rather
than out of pure yeast
so that's pre-digestion then then the
second the second a pattern of
transformation would be detoxification
and this really is pre digestion also
except instead of pre digestion of
nutritious compounds it's pre digestion
of toxic compounds and breaking down
toxic compounds into benign forms and
certain food toxins are very dramatic
like cyanide found in cassava grown in
certain soils and and and and you know
people you know it would be poisonous if
people tried to eat those those cassava
roots without without fermenting them
and I've short ez fermentation it's
basically chopping up the roots and
soaking them in water breaks down those
cyanide compounds into benign forms and
renders the cassava safe to eat and and
you know that's really where about a
billion people on this earth get their
daily calories is from is from cassava
so it's so it's a really important food
that's made edible in many places by
fermentation you know certain toxins
aren't quite so dramatic oxalic acid
gets broken down by fermentation phytic
acid found in the outer layers of seeds
gets broken down but by fermentation
fermentations even been used as a
strategy for making a water that we
would now understand to be a bacterial
contaminated potable by adding some
fermentable sugars to the water and
allowing the fermentation of a small
amount of alcohol enough to sort of kill
the bacteria contaminating the water so
that so that's that's detoxification
then there's what I would call nutrient
enhancement and this is the idea that
beyond breaking down the nutrients that
are present in the food to begin with
the fermentation can contribute some
additional nutrients and almost all
fermented foods have higher levels of B
vitamins than the raw ingredient
that you start with and this really has
to do with an accumulation of microbial
bodies living and/or dead in the food
you know they they accumulate B vitamins
in the food and then you know there are
what I call unique micronutrients that
are that are metabolic byproducts of
specific organisms breaking things down
and these are really just beginning to
be identified and investigated but but a
few of them have been found to have you
know especially beneficial qualities for
us in sauerkraut and other fermented
vegetables there are these compounds
that are that are that are generated
that are called isothiocyanates that are
regarded as anti-carcinogenic and you
know help help prevent the kinds of
mutations that can develop into cancers
and the Japanese soy ferment natto which
I just mentioned a couple of a couple of
moments ago the the the food itself has
never really gained much popularity in
the West but there there's a there's a
sort of an extract from it that has has
become very widely used and is available
in like vitamin supplement stores you
know everywhere in in in the US and that
compound is usually marketed as natto
Kinney's and it's been found to help
regulate blood clotting and so a lot of
people who are at risk for aneurysms and
other kinds of clotting disorders are
taking not okay natto kinase and it's
also been found to dissolve the the
fibers that can accumulate in blood
vessels that constrict them so you know
arteriosclerosis Alzheimer's disease
other disease product processes that
involve you know the accumulation of
material on the inside of blood vessels
so so you know these are some examples
of these unique micronutrients found in
specific fermented foods and that are
really just beginning to be investigated
and I would imagine that ten years from
now we'll know the names of more of such
such compounds then finally there's the
live bacteria themselves so all these
other things the pre digestion the
detoxification the
the nutritional enhancement you know
that that remains with the food whether
you cook it or not but the live bacteria
are really only viable in fermented
foods that have not been cooked or heat
processed after their fermentation and
you know in the scheme of things
historically like nobody ever had to I
mean people didn't know about bacteria
but they didn't need to think about you
know replenishing and diversifying
bacteria but because you know in the
period since we've known about bacteria
we've mostly been taught to fear
bacteria and we've you know our whole
culture has gotten caught up in a
project that I call the war on bacteria
and it's this sort of you know ideology
that bacteria are bad bacteria should be
avoided bacteria should be killed
bacteria should be eradicated
and we have just all been thoroughly
indoctrinated in this idea for our
entire lives and you know just in the
last decade or so I would say we're
beginning to get a more nuanced view you
know ten years ago biologists came up
with the statistic that the cells of our
bodies the cells that reflect our unique
individual DNA code are actually
outnumbered ten to one by bacteria that
we're host to and these bacteria are not
you know parasites they're not
freeloaders they turn out to give us a
huge amount of our functionality you
know we couldn't effectively digest food
or assimilate nutrients without bacteria
in our intestines bacteria in our
intestines also synthesize certain
essential nutrients so that we don't
have to find them in our food what we
call our immune function is largely
regulated by bacteria and just in the
last year or so there's been some
exciting research that suggests that
serotonin and other you know chemicals
that that you know determine how we
think and how we feel are regulated by
gut bacteria so
on the one hand there's this like
ideology that we all you know have been
indoctrinated with our entire lives that
bacteria are so terrible and you know
based on this ideology there's all this
marketing you know look at soaps in the
supermarket and and you know there's
nothing more alluring that you can write
on a package of soap then that it kills
99.9% of bacteria and you know consumers
respond to this because we've all been
taught the bacteria are so terrible and
if you know if soap is important then
soap with with chemicals that kill
bacteria must be even better so so in
addition to the war on bacteria being a
you know sort of an ideological
indoctrination it's also a form of
chemical warfare and so you know there's
antibiotic drugs there's antibacterial
cleansing products there's the chlorine
that we put into all of our water to
kill bacteria that continues to have
some residual effect in in our bodies so
historically no everybody ever had to
think about about you know replenishing
or diversifying bacteria in their gut
but in the 21st century when we're you
know constantly exposed to these
chemical compounds that kill bacteria
it's actually become rather important
for us to you know consciously think
about replenishing and diversifying
bacterial populations one way people do
this is with little capsules called
probiotics and each probiotic
manufacturer will tell you that you know
they have the strain or the combination
of strains that you know is is is really
gonna you know keep you healthy or
improve your health and you know there's
a huge body of you know clinical trial
research you know documenting the the
effectiveness of these different
probiotic agents and for the most part
people in the probiotics industry would
scoff at the idea that traditional
bacterial rich foods you know are
probiotic and and and really there's
comparatively little research you know
nobody owns sauerkraut nobody's
investing money in clinical trials for
sauerkraut because the benefit of that
kind of research wouldn't really accrue
to anyone in particular you know and and
you know we're living in a time when you
know most research is you know sort of
funded by someone who who stands to
benefit from from from that research
but there there is a small body of
research and you know I mean actually a
lot of it suggests that you know
traditional foods with which which
incorporate you know broad communities
of bacteria actually have you know much
more powerfully immune stimulating
effects than any you know probiotic
capsule with just a couple of strains
you know in in in the realm of you know
bacterial stimulation really diversity
is its own reward and one of the
fascinating things that I've been
learning about bacteria and you know my
disclaimer here is I am NOT a biologist
I am NOT a microbiologist I am I am you
know a layperson who's interested in
food who you know got obsessed with
fermentation and as a result has ended
up reading a lot about bacteria but
they're really fascinating thing about
bacteria is that they are not
genetically stable they are inherently
genetically flexible bacteria can pick
up genes from the environment they can
exchange genes with one another they can
release genes that are that are
redundant for them or or unnecessary
given their environment and so bacteria
are shapeshifters they're they're
constantly changing and that's why you
know even conceptually the idea of like
you know a capsule with you know ten
billion cells of one single bacterium
just is not as powerful as a food that
has a broad community of bacteria
because the the food with a with with a
broad community of bacteria is
introducing this broader range of
genetic material into your intestines to
bring greater adaptability and
resilience to the microbial cells that
are already there than any single strain
could but anyway III would say that that
the the probiotic benefit the live
culture benefit of of certain fermented
foods is really the most profound
nutritional benefit of them and but you
need to be informed I mean not every
fermented food has live culture you know
if you want to eat raw sourdough dough
that has live cultures but nobody really
wants eat raw dough once you put it in
the hot
in those those live cultures you know
are killed by heat which is not to say
that bread is bad it's just to
illustrate that like certain foods lend
themselves to live cultured consumption
and and other kinds of foods don't you
know the sauerkraut in the supermarket
in a can doesn't have the live bacteria
intact you know there are you know
increasingly you can find you know sort
of smaller local brands of sauerkraut
that that are typically sold in a
refrigerated section that do have live
cultures intact
or really most of what I do is just
showing people how easy it is to do and
and you know usually in my public
speaking I have a cabbage and a cutting
board in front of me and I'm you know
showing people how to make sauerkraut
which is what I'll be doing tomorrow but
but really like the thrust of my work is
is you know just showing people how easy
this is I mean all of these fermented
foods like people have been making for
thousands of years and I mean it's
interesting that you know in in really
just a few generations these you know
sort of foods which had been part of you
know most households and and every
community have largely disappeared
behind fact I mean the foods themselves
haven't disappeared but their production
has disappeared from the fabric of our
lives and you know the the simple
techniques for their production which
which always had just been you know part
of what everybody had to learn to get by
have you know the the thread of
continuity passing them down through the
generations you know has has been has
been severed at the same time as we all
became afraid of bacteria so in teaching
people how to make sauerkraut which is
like so simple you know chopped salt
pound stuff it in a jar like that's all
it is
I mean it's it's really really easy but
people project a huge amount of fear
onto this like the number one question
that I have encountered is you know how
do I know I'm gonna get good bacteria
growing rather than bad bacteria you
know I don't have a microscope even if I
did I wouldn't be able to tell whether
it was a good
bacteria or a bad bacteria growing you
know in fact sauerkraut is among the
safest foods known to humans
statistically speaking sauerkraut is
safer than raw vegetables and you know
even though every year we hear about
people getting sick from raw vegetables
I hope nobody is paralyzed by that fear
and not eating vegetables because a few
people get sick every year and and you
know even if your vegetables have been
contaminated in some way once you chop
them up and salt them and create the
conditions where the lactic acid
bacteria which are part of all plants
can proliferate that would you know as
it as the environment acidified it would
wipe out the contaminating bacteria so I
mean according to the USDA there has
never been a single documented case of
food poisoning for fermented vegetables
in the United States and and also you
know from this particular researcher who
who has who has said that he's also
looked internationally and can't find
any examples internationally either so
you know it's just it's incredibly safe
and just in general fermentation you
know has been used as a very effective
strategy for food safety okay I guess
I'll wrap up my sort of my remarks by
just talking for a moment about another
connotation of the word fermentation so
the word fermentation comes from Latin
fare very which means to boil and it's
because the visible action of
fermentation in liquids is bubbles just
like the visible action of boiling and
liquids and the word yeast has very
similar root yeast comes from Greek zest
dose which means to boil and so you know
and until microbial until Louis
Pasteur's work and and and microbiology
you know having an analysis of what's
really going on you know with bacteria
and other microorganisms and
fermentation fermentation was recognized
from from the visible action from from
the bubbles but they're also developed
this metaphorical understanding of
fermentation so you know people talk
about cultural ferment political ferment
in
lecturer ferment social ferment
spiritual ferment and you know all of
these forms of fermentation you know
have to do with with bubbliness except
instead of you know it happening from
the work of microorganisms you know in
in liquids it has to do with people
getting bubbly when people are excited
about things you know they they become
irrepressible and excited and they want
to share their excitement and and so you
know I guess I want to just sort of
close my remarks by by pointing out that
that in addition to being a mode an
important mode of transformation of
foods and beverages fermentation is also
an important mode of social
transformation and of social change so
with that I will open it up and you know
really the the questions can be you know
about the molding your sauerkraut or you
know why your beer stop bubbling you
know or they can be about you know sort
of you know bigger more philosophical
questions but but anything in our
there's some microphones around her okay
[mumbling]
hi I have a question specifically about
sauerkraut so we've we've been making it
for several years and we have a large
six gallon crock and it's been pretty
inconsistent and I'm wondering if you
might know why what we found is that we
buy sauerkraut runs earth cabbage around
St. Patrick's Day when you have just
really cheap we go through the steps you
know chop it up as fine as we can salt
etc and it turns out great but we also
grow cabbage in the garden and we find
that consistently instead of fermenting
it rots when we do the same process and
I'm wondering if you might know why - well
okay so I have a couple questions so are
like are you are you getting liquid
rising over the top in both cases in
neither case we have enough
both both cases we've had to add brine
to mixture to get it to cover the pot
okay well I mean that's the most
important you know that's the most
important thing of all is making sure
your vegetables are are are under liquid
so you know I'm sure we've all had
leftover vegetables that sat on our
counter and we're exposed to air and
just started growing mold on top of them
like a head of cabbage will never turn
itself into sauerkraut
exposed to air mold is what will grow
and so we don't want to talk to the
beginning about how all you know all
fermentation processes are you know are
essentially manipulating environmental
conditions and sauerkraut that's the
manipulation is you're protecting the
vegetables from air by getting them
under a brine there's always enough
water in the cabbage unless it's very
old you have to do a little bit of work
to get it to get it out so that that's
where this sort of you know in in in in
sort of you know community production
you know in in Northern Europe typically
they you know they'd be making in a
barrel and they'd have some kind of a
big you know pounding tool that they
would smash it with or in some places I
mean I've heard this story from about 20
people people older than me who grew up
in places in central or northern Europe
and as little kids they had their feet
scrubbed and they put them inside the
barrel and they had the kids jumping up
and down you know on the vegetables to
smash them on in small household
production I think just using your hands
in a bowl and squeezing them like this
but but whether you're pounding or
jumping up and down on them or squeezing
them you're doing the same thing you're
bruising the vegetables breaking down
cell walls and the cells are releasing
their their their their water you know
if you're using older cabbage or you
know you have arthritis or carpal tunnel
syndrome or for whatever reason you
can't you can't do that you can totally
add water and that that that's a
perfectly fun thing to do but so I mean
I it's hard for me to sort of diagnose
specific problems without actually
seeing it and smelling it I mean the
most common problems that people have in
fermenting vegetables is you know you do
all this work to get the vegetables
submerged under liquid that protects the
oxygen but there's always an edge where
it meets the oxygen and that's where
people have problems moulds can grow
there yeast can grow there there's all
sorts of different elegantly designed
Crocs that are that are designed to
exclude air so you can avoid that
problem but but that's usually where the
rotting starts is from the top with
these aerobic growths and if those go
unchecked if you don't skim that off
then then you know the mycelium from
those molds can penetrate really deeply
into your vessel and begin to degrade
the texture and the flavor of the whole
batch so you want to try to avoid molds
you know I'll bet that the problematic
batches are happening in warmer weather
like maybe you're making it in
summertime okay well I mean 70 is a
little you know I mean you can make
sauerkraut you can make it in any in any
temperature range but the warmer it is
the shorter the horizon that it has so
you know if you're making it in a 70
degree space it's not going to be good
months later you know that could be that
could be great for a few weeks but you
know typically like the time that people
make sauerkraut is in the fall you know
or at least so that's when they make it
for long term storage so you know as
temperatures are getting down and then
storing it in an unheated cellar that
stays you know under 60 degrees you know
as close as possible to earth
temperature about 55 degrees and then
you you know typically it'll be great
all winter long and into the next spring
when sauerkraut begins to degrade okay
so there's a basic like you know concept
that you know all living creatures
contain the enzymes to digest themselves
and a cabbage cabbage is included in
that and so what makes Cabot what makes
vegetables crunchy are pectins in the
short run when you salt your your
vegetables it hardens up the pectins and
makes them
run cheer but then over time there
there's a class of enzymes called pectin
ace enzymes that will digest those
pectins and you know usually when
sauerkraut goes bad it's that it gets
really soft it gets like a baby food
kind of a texture and you know for me
that's really really unappealing but
there's a lot of cultural subjectivity
to it like I once had this um this
Austrian woman taste my six week old
sauerkraut and she said oh that's very
good for coleslaw and then what I what I
learned from her is that in Austria they
like to age their sauerkraut until it
starts to get soft and that's when they
think it's ripe so at exactly the same
moment that I'm thinking about putting
into into the compost they're thinking
that it's it that it's about ripe so I
don't know if when you say that it just
it rots it's like just getting really
you know really soft with a lot of like
ugly growth on the top like from the
very beginning like what's it like after
a week
[silence]
well that's it well I mean you
definitely want to you you you
definitely want to cover it to keep
flies and things out so so the way I
typically work with an open crock method
I mean there there are there are closed
crock methods there there are these
crocks with little a water channel and
the top and then the top goes in in that
and it prevents if it fills the space
inside with carbon dioxide and then and
then if there's pressure it's sort of
burps out but the lower pressure air in
outside can't get in
so you it's a strategy for for trying to
minimize those kinds of surface growths
I don't typically use those I typically
work with an open crock method I put a
plate inside the crock that sets on the
surface of the vegetables I put a weight
on top of that to bear down and force
the vegetables down and the juice up and
you gotta you got to have a layer to
keep the flies out like the worst thing
that could have the worst failure you
can have with sauerkraut and I've had
this happen many times is you can a
fly's land on it and lay their eggs and
find maggots crawling out of it
so you really want to you really want to
you know a guard you know just keep
flies off of it you know and then it'll
really really smell rotten but but I you
know I wish I wish I could like totally
diet diagnose it but I'd really I'd have
to sort of see it and and and smell it
you know I think like you know in warm
temperatures thinking about a shorter
there's no objective like time when it's
done like you know I had that you know
the Austrian woman who thought my six
week old sauerkraut wasn't mature enough
to eat and then I've had I've served
people three day old sauerkraut that I
was embarrassed to be serving and had
them say wow that's the best sauerkraut
I ever had in my life I thought I didn't
like sauerkraut but that's delicious so
you know one of the great things about
making anything yourself and
particularly a fermented food is you can
make it the way you like it you can
ferment it for a short time and have it
be mild or fermented for a long time and
have it be really really acidic you can
make it really salty if that's what you
like you could make it barely salty
all you could make it super spicy or not
spicy at all I mean there's just a huge
amount of variability there's not just
one way you can do this
so if do I get more nutrient value out
of sauerkraut than raw cabbage well
you'll get you'll get higher levels of B
vitamins you'll get the vitamin C really
well preserved but it but it won't be
preserved forever once the once the the
the most active fermentation slows down
and there's no longer carbon dioxide
constantly being released you'll get a
slow decrease in the vitamin C levels
over time
but you'll have the live cultures that
weren't really present in the raw
cabbage that are present in in the
fermented cabbage I would never suggest
that fermented vegetables are
intrinsically better than fresh
vegetables I mean I think it's great to
eat fresh vegetables and you know but I
think that they're they're different and
and you know historically when people
ate sauerkraut was when there weren't
fresh vegetables available and I think
in our you know contemporary world it
just makes sense to approach it with
moderation and you know and eat
sauerkraut or you know fermented
vegetables but not necessarily in huge
amounts and not think of them as being
instead of fresh vegetables but as a
supplement to fresh vegetables
can I ask you two questions okay one of
them is does that does do the probiotics
in fermented vegetables help people with
digestive problems and I know that's
kind of a general category digestive
problems but can that happen yeah sure I
mean I mean I okay first of all let me
disclaimer I am NOT a clinician you know
I like I like I'm not really
IIIi I don't really have the you know
the training or the background to be
diagnosing anyone's problems or you know
recommending solutions for them you know
that said I correspond with an
incredible number of people and I've you
know I've I've probably fielded you know
20,000 emails over the last 15 years
from people about about fermentation and
I have just heard a huge number of
stories from people who feel like you
know they've had chronic digestive
problems relieved by incorporating live
culture foods into their diet and then
the second question is I've looked at
doing permant ation where I get stuck is
that they say after its slowed down then
you want to put in the refrigerator I
have very limited refrigerator space I
don't want to buy another refrigerator
is there another option there are a lot
of different options I mean one option
is to make small batches and never put
them in the refrigerator and just you
know make small batches and then eat
them up and as you're getting near the
end of one batch start up another batch
if you have a an unheated cellar I mean
you know this is a food that people ate
for thousands of years before anyone
heard of a refrigerator so you know the
classic thing was to store it in an in
an unheated cellar or or to bury the
crock or to I mean in pits in the ground
I mean you know ah but like as late as
World War two there's documentation and
in Poland of communities making their
sauerkraut in pits in the ground so I
mean you know there's there there's a
lot of possibilities but I you know I
would say that the most straightforward
one you know for someone who's just
wanting a sort of a small supply of
sauerkraut to supplement their diet is
just to make small batches and and just
make them frequently instead of making
you know one giant batch a year I mean
one giant bachelor you know makes sense
if you're a farmer and trying to put up
a bunch of a bunch of vegetables but it
only makes sense if you have an unheated
cellar if you're living in a house that
you're gonna you know be heating 270
degrees all winter you know it's just
knock it's not gonna last for months and
months at that kind of a temperature
it'll just turn into you know a mush my
question is about the relationship of
fermentation to the four or five basic
flavors that we sense the four or five
basic flavors sweet sour salty but
particularly about how it alters our
sense of whether something is sweet or
not does fermentation alter or heighten
or weaken any of those flavors well I
mean I mean I would say that that the
flavor that really is the hallmark of
fermentation would be umami the you know
the 5th flavor you know the the the savory
flavor and you know most most fermented
foods you know have very have elevated
levels of glutamates you know and and
and and and would really exemplify the
umami flavor in terms of sweet flavor I
mean for the most part fermentation
organisms consume sugar and turn it into
you know acids you know and or alcohol
so you know most ferments you know
aren't very sweet or at least they're
less sweet than the thing that you
started fermenting you know certainly I
mean I've heard of people you know talk
about if they if they eat too much sugar
sometimes you know like something like
sauerkraut juice or eating sauerkraut
might like sort of neutralize that
feeling for them but but but in general
I mean fermented foods you know tend to
not be very sweet you know it's only if
we sweeten them you know like you know
the the American concept of yogurt where
you you know put lots of you know sugar
and fruit in
new yogurt but if you were to try to
ferment it like that all those sugars
would ferment into acids and you would
just end up with something that was
super sour - so I'm interested in the live
culture benefit and I'm wondering since
I like sauerkraut can I just stick with
that or do I need to go at the variety
of foods like they say to eat a variety
of vegetables and fruit can I get the
benefit just from sauerkraut well I mean
I think you definitely get a benefit
from just from sauerkraut and the
interesting thing about sauerkraut is
that and when I say sauerkraut it's sort
of code for all all forms of fermented
vegetables but but but but they develop
in a successional way something like the
life of a forest so you know you start
out with you sort of you know one one
strain of lactic acid bacteria
dominating the environment and then as
the ph conditions change that gives way
to the rise of a next strain which is
dominant and so you get a series of
dominant strains over the course of a
vegetable fermentation so you know
actually if you're eating it at
different stages of its development
you're you're getting different
bacterial strains through through the
same food at different stages of its
development so I mean you know if you if
sauerkraut is what you like that that
that's great keep eating it but but I
would I would certainly say you know
that you get more diverse bacterial
stimulation if you start incorporating
you know other kinds of vegetables and
other kinds of foods fermented into your
diet - hi first of all I wanted to say
that I've really been enjoying your most
recent book and I've been reading
through it and I decided to try
fermenting oats with just because I like
to make porridge and after about 24
hours the flavor gets to be pretty funky
and I would call it maybe acidic but
mostly it's funky and I was wondering if
you could confirm that I'm eating
something that's beneficial to me or am
I just being weird and eating funky -
so you're you're soaking but you're
soaking the oats and then cooking them
yeah - yeah okay okay so so so so
basically you know I mean a lot of the
old traditions of using grains involved
soaking the grains first you know if you
if you look in old British cookbooks the
recipes for oatmeal mostly involved
soaking the oats before you cook them
you know in in in African traditions of
making porridge is generally the the
grains are soaked before they're there
they're cooked I mean this this this pre
digests the grains a little bit it makes
for a creamier porridge you get more
minerals out of the grains but you don't
get lot of cultures really because
you're cooking them so yes you're
getting more out of the grains by virtue
of soaking them but you know I would say
that you know if you're if you're if you
feel like the flavor is getting getting
funky and you don't like it you know
fermented for you know soak it for a
shorter period of time
so that it you know just soak it from
the night before and you'll get a you'll
get a lot of that pre digestion benefit
you know without getting the flavors
that you're finding to be funky and I
would also just say that you know
funky is not always a bad thing
- I'd like to talk about cooking more
because I mean I like it on I like like
you said you can do all sorts of
different things with with sauerkraut no
can be spicier and so it's just great on
things like fish and meat but then if
you cook it it's gonna probably take
away half the life of it so what would
you suggest for what how do you manage
that process in terms of preparing food
- well I mean I just think it's important
okay so the the standard American
approach to sauerkraut has been you
fermented in the crock and then you
pressure
Canon's and I mean I think that that is
I think that when you do that you're
depriving yourself of the the biggest
benefit of the sauerkraut which is the
live bacterial cultures on the other
hand there's all sorts of amazing
culinary traditions that involve cooking
these foods so you know in Korean
cuisine there's you know kimchi soup and
kimchi pancakes and you know in Russian
tradition there's like sauerkraut
pierogies and in Polish tradition
there's be go switches you know meat
that's like you know marinated in
sauerkraut and then sort of stewed for a
long time and sauerkraut and you know
there's so many wonderful ways to
incorporate the ferments you know into
cooking that I mean I don't think that
there's any reason not to as long as
you're eating a little bit of it raw and
I mean some ways of eating it raw are
you know on sandwiches just as a
condiment you know along with you know
along with your you know mayonnaise and
mustard and ketchup and whatever you put
on the sandwich you know putting a
little bit of sauerkraut on it just
blends right in you know using it as
just a like a small side dish with
whatever else you're eating and to mix
in with your rice and potatoes and and
and whatever you know having it with
eggs or in a burrito I mean there's all
sorts of ways to incorporate it raw into
your food and I would say as long as you
eat a little bit of it raw it's it's
it's great to cook with it also there's
all sorts of you know wonderful ways you
can use it um let me just put a little
shout out for sauerkraut juice and
kimchi juice and pickle brine you know
you get to the end of the jar and
there's some juice you don't have to
pour that down the drain
you know pour it down this drain you
know so like you know they're you know
that's an unparalleled digestive tonic
is you know drinking a little bit of
sauerkraut juice or kimchi juice and in
Russian cuisine they makes they they use
it as a soup base the the extra pickle
brine so you know often it's too salty
so you just have to dilute it and you
know mix it with your stock or or or or
or whatever but it's just you're full of
flavor full of nutrients so so so yeah I
mean cook with it but just you know try
not to cook all of it you know leave
leave a little bit of it to eat raw
[end]
