>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME
TO "AMANPOUR & CO."
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
>> THE AMERICAN PEOPLE NEED MORE
HELP.
>> THE SENATE STRUGGLES OVER A
SENATE BILL AS THE COUNTRY
FOCUSES ON A CATASTROPHE.
>> ATTORNEY GENERAL WILLIAM BARR
SEES HIMSELF AS MORE OF
PRESIDENT TRUMP'S INTEREST THAN
HE DOES AS THE ATTORNEY GENERAL
OF AMERICA.
>> HE'LL TELL US WHY HE'S SOURED
ON THE CHIEF ATTORNEY OF
AMERICA.
>> WHAT THE PANDEMIC HAS MADE SO
REAL IS THE CONSEQUENCES OF
NEGLECT.
>> PRESIDENT EMERITUS OF
MIAMI-DADE COLLEGE TELLS OUR
WALTER ISAACSON THAT TOP
UNIVERSITIES ARE FAILING ON
MOBILITY.
>> "AMANPOUR & CO." IS MADE
POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY
FUND.
SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III.
THE CHERYL AND PHILIP MILSTEIN
FAMILY.
CANDACE KING WEIR.
THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION.
BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ.
CHARLES ROSENBLUM.
JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.
ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY
THESE FUNDERS.
AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS
STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM,
EVERYONE.
I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR WORKING
FROM HOME IN LONDON.
THINGS ARE NOT LOOKING GOOD FOR
MILLIONS OF AMERICANS.
CORONAVIRUS BENEFIT PAYMENTS ARE
SET TO EXPIRE TODAY, AND
CONGRESS IS NOWHERE NEAR A NEW
AID DEAL.
THERE IS LITTLE OVERLAP IN THE
PROPOSALS THAT ARE BEING PUT
FORWARD BY DEMOCRATS AND
REPUBLICANS.
AND THIS IS ALL HAPPENING AT THE
END OF A WEEK WHEN WE LEARN THAT
THE U.S. ECONOMY CONTRACTED AN
ANNUAL RATE OF 33% IN THE LAST
QUARTER, WHICH IS A RECORD.
AND THE COUNTRY TOPPED 150,000
DEATHS FROM COVID-19.
THE NOBEL PRIZE-WINNING
ECONOMIST PAUL KRUGMAN WRITES IN
HIS LATEST "NEW YORK TIMES"
COLUMN THAT, THE DISASTER
UNFOLDING IN AMERICA IS, QUOTE,
WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU PUT A
HORRIBLE BOSS IN CHARGE OF
RUNNING THE COUNTRY AND NOBODY
CAN SAY WHEN, IF EVER, THE
DAMAGE WILL BE REPAIRED.
KRUGMAN'S LATEST BOOK IS CALLED
"ARGUING WITH ZOMBIES" AND HE
JOINS ME NOW FROM MASSACHUSETTS.
PAUL KRUGMAN, WELCOME TO THE
PROGRAM.
I GUESS THE LINE IN YOUR COLUMN
THAT REALLY, REALLY STRUCK ME IS
NOBODY KNOWS WHEN OR IF THIS
ECONOMIC DOWNTURN CAN EVER BE
REPAIRED, OR EVEN THE PANDEMIC,
THE HEALTH CRISIS.
CAN YOU BUILD ON THAT?
WHAT DO YOU MEAN?
>> WELL, OKAY, EVENTUALLY THE
ECONOMY WILL MAKE UP MOST OF THE
LOST GROUND, BUT EVENTUALLY IT'S
LOOKING A LONG WAYS AWAY.
WHAT WE'VE LEARNED, WHAT A LOT
OF US ARE TRYING TO TELL PEOPLE
THAT IS NOW VERY CLEAR IS THAT
THERE IS NO ECONOMIC RECOVERY AS
LONG AS THE PANDEMIC IS OUT OF
CONTROL.
IT DOESN'T EVEN MATTER WHAT
GOVERNORS SAY.
YOU CAN TRY TO REOPEN, WHATEVER,
BUT AS LONG AS THE VIRUS IS
STILL SPREADING FREELY, THEN
VERY QUICKLY YOU'RE FORCED TO
CLOSE DOWN AGAIN, OR EVEN IF YOU
SAY IT'S OKAY TO GO TO
RESTAURANTS, PEOPLE WON'T,
BECAUSE THEY'RE GOING TO BE
AFRAID OF DYING.
AND BECAUSE THE UNITED STATES
FAILED, BECAUSE WE BLEW IT,
BECAUSE WE TOOK OUR ORIGINAL
SUCCESS, PARTIAL SUCCESS, IN
REDUCING INFECTIONS AND THREW IT
AWAY WITH CARELESSNESS, NOW
WE'RE IN A SITUATION WHERE WE
HAVE AN INDEFINITE PERIOD OF A
VERY DEPRESSED ECONOMY.
BASICALLY, I THINK WE'RE ALMOST
CERTAINLY GOING TO MEET THE SORT
OF INFORMAL DEFINITION OF A
DEPRESSION, WHICH IS A YEAR OR
MORE OF 10-PLUS PERCENT
UNEMPLOYMENT.
>> I WAS ACTUALLY GOING TO ASK
YOU WHETHER IT WOULD STAY AT A
TERRIBLE RECESSION OR WHETHER
YOU FELT THAT IT COULD HEAD INTO
A DEPRESSION, WHICH IS, AS
YOU'VE TECHNICALLY POINTED OUT
WHAT IT IS.
SO THAT IS NOT GOOD NEWS FOR
PEOPLE TO HEAR RIGHT NOW.
ARE YOU SURPRISED?
OBVIOUSLY YOU TALK ABOUT, YOU
KNOW, YOU WARNED, OTHERS HAVE
WARNED THAT UNLESS YOU GET THE
PANDEMIC UNDER CONTROL, YOU'RE
NOT GOING TO HAVE THIS FAMOUS
V-SHAPED RECOVERY.
THE TIME WAS TO TRY TO BUILD THE
PUBLIC HEALTH AND, YOU KNOW,
SOCIAL CIRCUMSTANCES THAT SHOULD
HAVE ALLOWED SOME KIND OF SAFER
RECOVERY.
BUT NOW YOU'RE SEEING WHAT
YOU'VE JUST POINTED OUT IN TERMS
OF VIRUS AND INFECTIONS, BUT
ALSO WHAT WE MENTIONED, YOU
KNOW, THE ECONOMY CONTRACTING,
FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE RECORDS
HAVE BEEN TAKEN, BY NEARLY A
THIRD.
IS THAT WHAT LEADS YOU TO THINK
OF A POTENTIAL DEPRESSION?
>> NO.
ACTUALLY -- BY THE WAY, THESE
ANNUALIZED RATES, THAT'S BECOME
A REAL PITFALL.
THE COUNTRY ACTUALLY CONTRACTED
AT AROUND 40%, 10% ON AN ANNUAL
RATE.
BUT THOSE ARE OLD.
WE'RE LIVING ON COVID TIME.
THINGS HAPPEN VERY FAST NOW.
SO A NUMBER ON THE ECONOMY IN
THE SECOND QUARTER IS REALLY
BASICALLY WHERE WE WERE IN MAY,
AND MAY IS PRACTICALLY A
LIFETIME AGO IN TERMS OF THE
PACE AT WHICH EVENTS ARE
HAPPENING.
WHERE WE ARE RIGHT NOW IS THAT
WE HAD A MONTH AND A HALF WHEN
THE ECONOMY SEEMED TO BE
BOUNCING BACK, AND THEN WE HAD
THE SECOND WAVE AND DEATHS
STARTED TO RISE, AND WE STARTED
RETRENCHING.
AND SO WHERE WE ARE RIGHT NOW IS
THAT WE HAD AN ABORTIVE TAKEOFF.
WE HAD THE BEGINNINGS.
IT STARTED TO LOOK LIKE A
V-SHAPED RECOVERY, BUT BECAUSE
WE HADN'T CONTROLLED THE VIRUS,
IT FAILED, AND WHERE WE ARE NOW
IS REALLY, REALLY GRIM.
IT'S NOT CLEAR EXACTLY WHAT IT
WILL TAKE TO GET US ACTUALLY
MOVING ECONOMICALLY, AND WE'RE
IN A VERY BAD PLACE AND WE
APPEAR TO BE STUCK IN IT.
>> PRESIDENT TRUMP, NONETHELESS,
APPEARS TO CONSTANTLY AND
CONTINUOUSLY BE OPTIMISTIC ABOUT
THIS IN MANY OF HIS INTERVIEWS.
HE TALKS ABOUT HOW IT'S GOING TO
BE GREAT, THE ECONOMY IS GOING
TO BE GREAT.
LET'S JUST PLAY THIS CLIP OF
WHAT HE SAID ABOUT WHAT HE
PREDICTS FOR THE ECONOMY IN THE
THIRD QUARTER.
>> WE'RE PUTTING AMERICA FIRST,
AND WE'RE MAKING AMERICA BETTER
THAN IT'S EVER BEEN.
YOU WILL SEE THAT.
WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A GREAT YEAR
NEXT YEAR, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A
GREAT THIRD QUARTER.
AND THE NICE THING ABOUT THE
THIRD QUARTER IS THE RESULTS
WILL COME OUT BEFORE THE
ELECTION.
>> WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT,
PAUL KRUGMAN?
>> AGAIN, THIRD QUARTER MEANS
BASICALLY THAT THAT'S A
DESCRIPTION OF THE ECONOMY AS IT
IS OR, ACTUALLY, AS IT WAS A
WEEK OR TWO AGO.
THE THIRD QUARTER IS JUNE, JULY,
AUGUST, SO YOU WOULD THINK OF
THAT BEING THE NUMBER FOR
MID-JULY, AND MID-JULY, JUST TWO
WEEKS AGO, WAS TERRIBLE, BUT IT
WAS MAYBE NOT QUITE AS TERRIBLE
AS MID-MAY.
SO, YOU KNOW, IT'S POSSIBLE THAT
WE'LL BE SEEING SOME POSITIVE
NUMBERS, BUT I DON'T THINK
ANYONE WILL BE PERSUADED BY THAT
BECAUSE IT WILL BE OBVIOUS THAT
WE STILL HAVE MASS UNEMPLOYMENT,
THAT WE MAY HAVE BOUNCED BACK A
LITTLE BIT FROM THE ABSOLUTE
DEPTHS, BUT IT'S NOT GOING TO BE
WHERE THE ECONOMY REALLY IS --
BY THE WAY, I SHOULD HAVE SAID
IT'S ACTUALLY AUGUST IS THE
THIRD QUARTER -- BUT, YOU KNOW,
THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT
IT'S THE -- THE FACT OF THE
MATTER IS WE HAVE A STALLED
RECOVERY.
EVERYBODY WHO IS LOOKING AT
CONTEMPORARY NEWS DATA, AND
THERE ARE A WHOLE BUNCH OF
INDICATORS THERE, SAYS, WELL, WE
HAD A LITTLE BIT OF A RECOVERY,
THEN IT SPUTTERED OUT, AND I
THINK PEOPLE ARE NOT THAT
STUPID.
PEOPLE WILL BE AWARE OF THAT.
WE'RE GOING TO HAVE THREE JOBS
REPORTS BEFORE THE ELECTION.
THE NEXT ONE IS NOT LIKELY TO BE
GOOD.
THE NEXT TWO MIGHT BE BETTER,
BUT THEY MIGHT BE WORSE, AND
PEOPLE ARE NOT GOING TO COME
INTO THAT ELECTION THINKING THAT
WE'RE ON THE PATH TO GREATNESS.
PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE THINKING,
OH, MY GOD, WE'RE STILL IN THIS
DEPRESSION.
>> SO WE POINTED OUT THAT THIS
SUPPLEMENTAL, YOU KNOW,
UNEMPLOYMENT RELIEF IS RUNNING
OUT TODAY.
SO WITH MORE THAN 20 MILLION
JOBLESS AMERICANS STANDING TO
LOSE THAT EXTRA $600-ENHANCED
UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFITS, WHAT
HAPPENS NOW, THEN?
THE SENATE HAS RECESSED.
IT'S NOT HAPPENING AS WE SPEAK
RIGHT NOW.
WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
WHAT HAPPENS TO PEOPLE?
>> REMEMBER, THOSE ARE WEEKLY
CHECKS.
ACTUALLY, THE LAST CHECKS WENT
OUT LAST WEEKEND.
SO THAT MONEY HAS ENDED.
AND GIVEN THE WAY THE STATE
UNEMPLOYMENT OFFICES WORK, EVEN
IF CONGRESS MIRACULOUSLY REACHED
AN AGREEMENT TO SEND MONEY OUT,
WHICH WON'T BE UNTIL NEXT WEEK,
THE MONEY WILL ACTUALLY START
FLOWING.
IT'S NOT CLEAR THEY'RE READY TO
DO THAT.
SO YOU HAVE TENS OF MILLIONS OF
FAMILIES HAVE BEEN CUT OFF FROM
CRUCIAL FLOW OF MONEY, AND THEY
ARE -- SO THEY'RE GOING TO
SUFFER TERRIBLY, AND, OF COURSE,
THOSE FAMILIES IN TURN, THE
MONEY THAT THEY SPEND ON
NECESSITIES HELPS KEEP THE REST
OF THE ECONOMY AFLOAT.
SO WHAT WE'VE JUST DONE IS WE'VE
JUST DELIVERED A FURTHER BODY
BLOW TO THE ECONOMIC RECOVERY,
AND TOTALLY PREDICTABLE.
I MEAN, DEMOCRATS MAYBE DIDN'T
LIKE IT, BUT DEMOCRATS DID PASS
A BILL THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO DEAL
WITH EXACTLY THIS SITUATION, AND
THEY DID THAT IN THE MIDDLE OF
MAY, AND REPUBLICANS JUST DID
NOTHING AT ALL UNTIL LAST WEEK.
THEY SUDDENLY SAID, OH, THE
MONEY IS ABOUT TO RUN OUT.
I WONDER IF WE SHOULD DO
SOMETHING.
IT'S ANOTHER TOTALLY GRATUITOUS,
PREVENTABLE CATASTROPHE.
>> SO AS YOU POINTED OUT, THE
DEMOCRATS PASSED ONE, THE
REPUBLICANS RELUCTANT.
THERE IS OBVIOUSLY A STORY LINE
AMONGST SOME WHO SAY THAT THIS
EXTRA $600 IS MORE THAN THEY
WOULD GET CERTAINLY FOR LOW WAGE
WORKERS, AND IT'S NOT NOT AN
INCENTIVE TO GO BACK TO WORK,
HENCE, WHY SHOULD WE KEEP GIVING
THIS IF WE WANT TO GET PEOPLE
BACK TO WORK?
CAN YOU TELL US, IS THAT A
LEGITIMATE CONCERN?
>> THERE'S ACTUALLY VERY LITTLE
EVIDENCE THAT IT'S A DETERRENT
TO ACCEPTING JOBS, BUT WHAT ARE
THOSE JOBS PEOPLE ARE SUPPOSED
TO BE ACCEPTING?
RIGHT NOW WE HAVE ABOUT 30
MILLION PEOPLE ON UNEMPLOYMENT
BENEFITS.
AND THERE ARE 5 MILLION JOB
OPENINGS, ACCORDING TO ANOTHER
GOVERNMENT SURVEY.
SO, WHAT, SOMEONE SAYS, OH, MY
MONEY IS CUT OUT, I BETTER TAKE
A JOB, EXCEPT THAT THERE ARE SIX
PEOPLE OUT THERE LOOKING FOR
JOBS FOR EVERY ACTUAL JOB THERE
IS TO TAKE.
SO IT DOESN'T MATTER.
THE FACT THAT -- THE
UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFITS HAVE BEEN
PRETTY GENEROUS, I THINK
APPROPRIATELY SO, BUT THE IDEA
THAT THEY'RE DETERRING, THAT
THEIR RUNNING UP THE BAD ECONOMY
IS UP AGAINST THE FACT THERE ARE
NO JOBS TO TAKE.
>> YOU'VE RECENTLY WRITTEN IN
THE "NEW YORK TIMES," AND THE
HEADLINE BASICALLY SAID AMERICA
LOST THE WAR WITH COVID-19.
WHY DO YOU SAY THAT?
IS IT OVER YET, THIS WAR?
>> I MEAN, IT'S NOT OVER UNTIL
EITHER THE VIRUS HAS BEEN
EXTINGUISHED OR WE'RE ALL DEAD,
I GUESS.
BUT THE POINT IS THERE WAS A
MOMENT, UP THROUGH MAYBE EARLY
APRIL, ALL ADVANCED COUNTRIES
WERE ON SOMEWHAT SIMILAR TRACKS.
WE ALL HAD A BIG OUTBURST OF THE
VIRUS AND SOME GOT A HANDLE ON
IT FASTER THAN OTHERS, BUT THE
U.S. DIDN'T LOOK THAT DIFFERENT
FROM THE REST OF THE WORLD.
BUT THEN AS OTHER COUNTRIES
CONTINUED TO PURSUE LOCKDOWNS AS
LONG AS WAS NECESSARY, RAMPED UP
TESTING, DID ALL THE THINGS WE
NEEDED, THEY BROUGHT THE LEVELS
OF INFECTIONS AND DEATHS DOWN TO
QUITE LOW LEVELS.
THE UNITED STATES THREW EVERY
CAUTION TO THE WIND AND STARTED
REOPENING BARS, DIDN'T WEAR
MASKS, AND WE DIVERGED.
I ALWAYS LIKE THE COMPARISON OF
THE U.S. AND ITALY.
ITALY HAD THE WORST INITIAL
OUTBREAK, THEY HAD A TERRIBLE
TIME, BUT NOW ITALY ONLY HAS A
SINGLE-DIGIT NUMBER OF DEATHS
MOST DAYS.
A LOT OF NORMAL LIFE HAS
RESUMED, AND THE UNITED STATES,
MEANWHILE, WE'RE STILL COPING
WITH A DEADLY PANDEMIC.
SO WE BLEW IT.
WE ALLOWED THIS THING TO GET OUT
OF CONTROL, AND WE WOULD HAVE TO
GO THROUGH THE WHOLE LOCKDOWN
THING ALL OVER AGAIN TO GET IT
BACK UNDER CONTROL.
WE BASICALLY COMPLETELY
SQUANDERED ALL THE SACRIFICES
THAT WERE MADE IN THE EARLY
MONTHS OF THIS CRISIS.
>> SO, PAUL, SOME OF THAT IS
GOING ON HERE.
THERE IS SOME SEMI-LOCKDOWNS
BEING REIMPOSED IN THE UK WHERE
I AM, AND YOU CAN SEE SOME
SPIKES IN COUNTRIES THAT HAD GOT
IT RIGHT FROM THE BEGINNING,
PLACES LIKE GERMANY, SPAIN.
OBVIOUSLY THEY HAD A HARD TIME
IN THE BEGINNING, BUT MOST OF
THOSE, AS YOU SAY, DID THE RIGHT
THINGS EVENTUALLY.
GIVEN THESE SPIKES THAT ARE
HAPPENING IN TOURIST SEASON,
WHAT IS THIS ALL SAYING TO YOU?
WHAT ARE YOUR CONCERNS ABOUT NOT
JUST THE U.S. ECONOMY BUT THE
WIDER, THE GLOBAL ECONOMY?
>> THIS IS GOING TO BE A BREAK
ON EVERYONE'S ACTIVITY.
THE WORLD ECONOMY AS A WHOLE
IS NOT GOING TO FULLY RECOVER
UNTIL WE HAVE REALLY LICKED THIS
VIRUS.
AND ASIDE FROM MAYBE NEW
ZEALAND, NOBODY HAS COMPLETELY
ELIMINATED IT.
BUT YOU DO NEED SOME
PERSPECTIVE.
WHAT THEY CALL A SPIKE IN
GERMANY IS WHAT WE WOULD CALL AN
INCONCEIVABLY GOOD DAY IN THE
UNITED STATES.
THE RATES OF INFECTION AND
DEATH, EVEN IN THESE SECOND WAVE
EPISODES IN EUROPE, ARE TINY
COMPARED WITH WHAT IS GOING ON
IN FLORIDA AND TEXAS RIGHT NOW.
AND SO, YEAH, WHAT WE DID LEARN
IS THAT YOU DON'T ACT
COMPLACENT.
YOU DON'T SAY, WELL, THAT'S NOT
THAT MANY PEOPLE, SO LET'S NOT
WORRY ABOUT IT BECAUSE OF
EXPONENTIAL GROWTH.
ONCE YOU LET GO, IT REALLY TAKES
OFF.
IT DOES HAVE THE ABILITY TO TURN
A SUCCESS STORY INTO A DISASTER.
WE'RE SEEING THAT IN ISREAL
WHICH DID A REALLY GOOD JOB AND
CARELESSLY OPENED ALL THE
SCHOOLS AND ALL OF A SUDDEN IT'S
A DISASTER AREA.
IT'S A WORLD OF DIFFERENCE IN
THE SITUATION EVEN IN THE UK
WHICH DID A PRETTY GOOD JOB BUT
NOT ON THE U.S. SCALE.
IT'S DIFFERENT THAN WHAT'S GOING
ON IN EUROPE AND GERMANY AND
WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE UNITED
STATES RIGHT NOW.
>> LET ME PIVOT A LITTLE BIT TO
POLITICS, BECAUSE ECONOMY, YOU
KNOW, CERTAIN ELEMENTS OF IT,
OFTEN REACT TO POLITICS, AS YOU
KNOW, MUCH BETTER THAN I DO.
AND THIS SORT OF BROUHAHA OVER
THE LAST 24 TO 48 HOURS WITH THE
PRESIDENT TWEETING POSSIBLY
DELAYING THE ELECTION, TEXTING
ABOUT MAIL-IN VOTING, AND
PRESIDENT OBAMA SAYING THE THING
ABOUT MAIL-IN VOTING.
LET'S LISTEN.
>> EVEN AS WE SIT HERE, THERE
ARE THOSE IN POWER DOING THEIR
DARNDEST TO DISCOURAGE VOTING BY
CLOSING POLLING LOCATIONS AND
TARGETING MINORITIES AND
STUDENTS WITH STRICTER I.D. LAWS
AND ATTACKING OUR VOTING RIGHTS
WITH SURGICAL PRECISION, EVEN
UNDERMINING THE POSTAL SERVICE
IN THE RUN-UP TO AN ELECTION.
IT'S GOT TO BE DEPENDENT ON
MAIL-IN BALLOTS SO PEOPLE DON'T
GET SICK.
>> PAUL, JUST CONTINUE IF I
MIGHT A LITTLE BIT, BECAUSE THE
"WALL STREET JOURNAL" HAS COME
OUT AGAINST THE PRESIDENT.
THIS HAS BEEN HALF A DOZEN TIMES
NOW IN RECENT DAYS AND WEEKS,
SAYING, THIS IS NOT TO SAY THE
NOVEMBER ELECTION WILL BE
RIGGED, AS MR. TRUMP ASSERTS.
HE MUST LET SOMEONE ELSE RUN
BEFORE HE ADMITS DEFEAT.
IN TERMS OF ECONOMIC SECURITY
AND THE THING THAT IS VERY --
WHAT ECONOMICS DON'T LIKE IS
UNCERTAINTY.
WHAT DO YOU THINK QUESTIONING
SOMETHING AS BIG AS AN AMERICAN
ELECTION, WHAT EFFECT MIGHT THAT
HAVE ON THE U.S. AND THE GLOBAL
ECONOMY?
>> I MEAN, LOOK, THE WHOLE
ANTI-DEMOCRATIC, ANTI-RULE OF
LAW MODE OF BEHAVIOR THAT WE'VE
SEEN FROM TRUMP, THE ECONOMIC
CONSEQUENCES ARE NOT THE
IMPORTANT REASON TO BE OPPOSED
TO IT, BUT STILL, IN THE LONGER
RUN, A LOT OF WHAT HAS MADE
AMERICA A SUCCESS IS THE FACT
THAT WE ARE A COUNTRY WHERE
PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT THE LAWS
APPLY, WHERE THEY BELIEVE THAT
THE POLITICAL SYSTEM IS STABLE,
WHERE THEY BELIEVE THAT YOU
WON'T HAVE YOUR HARD-EARNED
WEALTH EXPROPRIATED ON BEHALF OF
SOME CRONY, WHERE YOU WON'T BE
ADVOCATED BECAUSE IT'S CURRENTLY
WITH PEOPLE WHO HOLD POWER.
IF WE START TO BEHAVE LIKE A
DICTATORSHIP, WE CAN EXPECT TO
HAVE THE ECONOMY OF A
DICTATORSHIP.
PEOPLE STILL OPERATE AS THOUGH
THIS WHOLE TRUMP PHENOMENON IS
AN ABERRATION.
BUT IF IT BECOMES CLEAR THAT
IT'S NOT, MOSTLY WE'RE GOING TO
LOSE OUR LIBERTY, BUT WE CAN
LOSE OUR PROSPERITY, TOO.
>> PAUL KRUGMAN, THANK YOU SO
MUCH FOR JOINING US.
>> THANK YOU.
>>> NOW, IT WAS A BUSY WEEK FOR
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL BILL BARR,
ONE OF THE PRESIDENT'S MOST
ARDENT AND POWERFUL ALLIES,
AFTER HE PUSHED FOR THE CASE
AGAINST TRUMP ALLY MICHAEL FLYNN
TO BE DISMISSED.
THE LEGAL SAGA WAS RENEWED ON
THURSDAY WHEN AN APPEALS COURT
ANNOUNCED THAT IT WOULD FURTHER
REVIEW IT.
AND EARLIER THIS WEEK ON
TUESDAY, BARR WAS QUESTIONED BY
CONGRESS ABOUT THAT AND ABOUT
THE CASE OF ANOTHER TRUMP
FRIEND, ROGER STONE.
TAKE A LISTEN.
>> THE ESSENCE OF RULE OF LAW IS
THAT WE HAVE ONE RULE FOR
EVERYBODY, AND WE DON'T IN THIS
CASE.
BECAUSE HE'S A FRIEND OF THE
PRESIDENT.
>> IM SUPPOSEDLY PUNISHING THE
PRESIDENT AND HELPING HIS
FRIENDS.
CAN YOU POINT TO ONE INDICTMENT
THAT HAS BEEN UNDER THE
DEPARTMENT THAT YOU FEEL IS
UNMERITED, THAT YOU FEEL
VIOLATES THE RULE OF LAW?
ONE INDICTMENT.
>> NOW, THE ATTORNEY GENERAL
ALSO FACED QUESTIONS ABOUT HIS
ROLE IN CLEARING PROTESTS FROM
LAFAYETTE SQUARE AND THE
DECISION TO SEND FEDERAL FORCES
TO PORTLAND, OREGON.
WITH THE HEARINGS UNDERWAY, I
SPOKE WITH FORMER DEMOCRATIC
SENATOR RUSS FEINGOLD FROM
WISCONSIN AND REPUBLICAN PAUL
ROSENZWEIG WHO IS DEPUTY
SECRETARY FOR POLICY IN THE
DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY
UNDER PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH.
HE JOINED US FROM HIS FAMILY
HOME IN COSTA RICA.
GENTLEMEN, WELCOME, BOTH OF YOU,
TO THE PROGRAM.
I KNOW IN THE AREAS WHERE YOU
ARE WATCHING FROM, YOU'VE BEEN
LOOKING AT THESE HEARINGS.
CAN I ASK YOU, SIR, ATTORNEY
FEINGOLD, WHAT YOU MAKE OF WHAT
YOU'VE SEEN SO FAR?
HAVE ANY POINTS OR ANY CLARITY
BEEN MADE?
>> WELL, I THINK IT'S VERY CLEAR
WHAT'S BEING DEMONSTRATED.
I'D LIKE TO ANSWER AS AN
AMERICAN RATHER THAN AS A
DEMOCRAT, BECAUSE THE FACT IS
THE JUDICIARY ACT OF 1789
CREATED THE OFFICE OF U.S.
ATTORNEY GENERAL.
AND THE FIRST CLAUSE OF THE
JUSTICE DEPARTMENT'S MISSION
STATEMENT IS THAT THE ATTORNEY
GENERAL IS TO ENFORCE THE LAW
AND DEFEND THE INTERESTS OF THE
UNITED STATES ACCORDING TO THE
LAW.
NOT THE PRESIDENT, HE'S NOT THE
PRESIDENT'S LAWYER, HE'S NOT THE
PRESIDENT'S POLITICAL
FACILITATOR, AND THIS IS A
TRAGIC MOMENT IN THE HISTORY OF
OUR JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, WHICH IS
ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT PARTS
OF THIS GREAT DEMOCRACY.
>> SO LET ME ASK YOU AS A
REPUBLICAN, PAUL ROSENZWEIG, DO
YOU AGREE WITH RUSS FEINGOLD OR
DO YOU BELIEVE THERE IS A LITTLE
NUANCE IN WHAT BILL BARR HAS
BEEN SAYING?
>> WHEN ATTORNEY GENERAL BARR
WAS FIRST APPOINTED, I THOUGHT
IT WAS AN APPOINTMENT THAT MIGHT
ACTUALLY RESCUE THE DEPARTMENT
OF JUSTICE.
HE HAS A LONG HISTORY OF SERVICE
IN THE DEPARTMENT, AND I CONFESS
TO BEING DISAPPOINTED.
I THINK THAT IN ADDITION TO THE
ITEMS YOU LISTED OUT, WE COULD
ADD THINGS LIKE
MISCHARACTERIZING THE DEPARTMENT
OF JUSTICE'S INSPECTOR GENERAL
REPORT OR MISCHARACTERIZING THE
MUELLER SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
REPORT OR HIS ACTIONS IN
LAFAYETTE SQUARE, ALL OF WHICH
SEEM TO ME TO BE INCONSISTENT
WITH THE FAIR AND IMPARTIAL
ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE.
I THINK THAT IT IS, INDEED, A
TRAGEDY, AND I THINK THAT THE
EVIDENCE IS, UNFORTUNATELY,
INCREASINGLY CLEAR THAT ATTORNEY
GENERAL BARR SEES HIMSELF MORE
AS A HANDMAIDEN OF PRESIDENT
TRUMP'S POLITICAL INTERESTS THAN
HE DOES AS ATTORNEY FOR THE
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
>> LET'S START WITH THE
STATEMENT THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP
HAS SAID IN DIFFERENT WAYS MANY
TIMES ABOUT HIS AUTHORITY AS
PRESIDENT.
WE'RE JUST GOING TO PLAY THIS
LITTLE BACK AND FORTH.
>> YOU SAY MY AUTHORITY.
THE PRESIDENT'S AUTHORITY.
BECAUSE IT'S NOT ME.
WHEN SOMEBODY IS THE PRESIDENT
OF THE UNITED STATES, THE
AUTHORITY IS TOTAL.
AND THAT'S THE WAY IT'S GOT TO
BE.
>> YOUR AUTHORITY IS TOTAL.
>> IT'S TOTAL.
>> SO FIRST AND FOREMOST, AS A
REPUBLICAN, PAUL ROSENZWEIG,
WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THIS
AUTHORITY, AND AS YOU SAID, THE
ATTORNEY GENERAL SEEMS TO BE
ENACTING THAT?
>> IT'S AN EXTREME
INTERPRETATION THAT ALMOST
NOBODY EXCEPT THE PRESIDENT AND
PERHAPS ATTORNEY GENERAL BARR
AGREES WITH.
THE COURTS HAVE LONG LIMITED THE
PRESIDENT'S AUTHORITY IN CASES
RANGING FROM U.S. VERSUS NIXON
IN WHICH THE PRESIDENT WAS
SUBJECTED TO CRIMINAL LAW TO THE
STEELE SEIZURE CASES IN WHICH
PRESIDENT TRUMAN'S ATTEMPT TO
NATIONALIZE THE STEEL INDUSTRY
IN THE KOREAN WAR WAS REJECTED
BY THE COURTS.
IT IS ABSOLUTELY THE CASE THAT
THE PRESIDENT HAS A UNIQUE SET
OF AUTHORITIES BECAUSE HE IS THE
CHIEF EXECUTIVE OF THE UNITED
STATES.
BUT THE ENTIRE CONCEPTION OF THE
FRAMERS WAS ONE OF CHECKS AND
BALANCES, ONE IN WHICH THAT
AUTHORITY WAS CONSTRAINED,
CONSTRAINED BY JUDICIAL REVIEW,
CONSTRAINED BY LEGISLATIVE
OVERSIGHT AND FUNDING, AND
ULTIMATELY CONSTRAINED BY THE
AMERICAN PUBLIC.
WE HAD A REVOLUTION AGAINST THE
BRITISH TO GET RID OF KINGLY
PREROGATIVE, AND PRESIDENT
TRUMP'S ASSERTION OF IT NOW IS
REALLY AN ATTEMPT TO KIND OF
RETURN TO PRE-REVOLUTIONARY DAYS
IN THE TIMES OF KING GEORGE III.
>> SENATOR FEINGOLD, YOU HEARD
WHAT HE SAID, THAT HE'S THERE TO
PRACTICE THE LAW OF THE COUNTRY
WITHOUT FAVOR ON AN EQUAL BASIS.
BUT HE ALSO SAID IN A SPEECH
LAST FALL THAT WAGING A SCORCHED
EARTH, NO-HOLDS BARRED WAR OF
RESISTANCE AGAINST THIS
ADMINISTRATION, IT IS THE LEFT
THAT IS ENGAGED IN THE
SYSTEMATIC SHREDDING OF NORMS
AND UNDERMINING THE RULE OF LAW.
HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO THAT GIVEN
THE PRESIDENT'S FOUR YEARS AND
TIME IN OFFICE HAS BEEN MARKED
BY PERSISTENT PUSHBACK BY
DEMOCRATS AND OTHERS?
>> I BELIEVE HE GAVE THAT TALK
AT NOTRE DAME, AND THAT IS
SIMPLY NOT THE KIND OF LANGUAGE
THAT THE ATTORNEY GENERAL, THE
CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER OF
THE UNITED STATES SHOULD BE
USING IF HE IS GOING TO BE
ACTUALLY EVEN-HANDED.
NOT ONLY DO I AGREE WITH PAUL,
BUT I ADMIRE PAUL.
HE IS A CONSERVATIVE THAT HAS
SERVED UNDER REPUBLICAN
PRESIDENTS, AND I ALSO AGREE
WITH HIM THAT I DIDN'T THINK
BARR WOULD BE LIKE THIS.
I FIGURED SOMEBODY THAT HAD
SERVED UNDER THE FIRST GEORGE
BUSH WOULD ACTUALLY TRY TO
RESTORE THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT.
I THOUGHT HE WAS A PERSON THAT
WAS COMMITTED AT A MINIMUM TO
THE RULE OF LAW.
BUT IT TURNS OUT THAT PAUL
ROSENZWEIG IS THE PERSON THAT
REPRESENTS THAT, AND WE HAVE A
SITUATION HERE WHERE IT IS THE
OPPOSITE OF WHAT HAPPENED THE
LAST TIME, THE JUSTICE
DEPARTMENT WAS SO TARNISHED, AND
THAT WAS UNDER WATERGATE, UNDER
RICHARD NIXON.
JOHN MITCHELL ENDED UP ON THE
WRONG SIDE OF THE LAW, AND SO HE
PICKED EDWARD LEVY.
UNDER THE PRESIDENT, EDWARD LEVY
HAD THE GUTS TO STICK UP TO THE
U.S. PRESIDENT AND HE IS
CONSIDERED THE BEST ATTORNEY
GENERAL WE'VE HAD.
THIS IS A PRESIDENT THAT HAS
BROUGHT DISGRACE ON THE JUSTICE
DEPARTMENT.
>> I SEE THAT IS YOUR VIEW, AND
I SEE PAUL ROSENZWEIG -- I'M
PUTTING WORDS IN YOUR MOUTH ON
DISGRACE OF THE JUSTICE
DEPARTMENT.
BUT AT THE TIME SENATOR FEINGOLD
DID NOT AGREE WITH THE
DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY
PROVISIONS, AND YOU THOUGHT,
BECAUSE YOU WERE PART OF IT IN
THE POLICY REALM OF IT, THAT IT
ACTUALLY WOULD TURN OUT TO BE --
YOU KNOW, TO FILL A VERY
IMPORTANT ROLE.
BUT NOW YOU'VE SORT OF HAD A BIT
OF A CONVERSION FROM A
CONSERVATIVE, LEGAL POINT OF
VIEW.
CAN YOU BOTH DESCRIBE WHAT
HAPPENED, THAT ROAD TO DAMASCUS
CONVERSION, SO TO SPEAK?
>> WELL, AS YOU SAY, BACK IN THE
IMMEDIATE AFTERMATH OF 9/11 WHEN
CONGRESS WAS CONSIDERING THE
CREATION OF THE DEPARTMENT OF
HOMELAND SECURITY, I THOUGHT IT
WAS A GOOD IDEA AND AN
APPROPRIATE RESPONSE TO THE
TERRORIST INCIDENTS THAT HAD SO
TRANSFORMED THE WORLD AND
ENDANGERED AMERICANS.
SENATOR FEINGOLD AT THE TIME WAS
ONE OF A SMALL NUMBER OF
SENATORS WHO OPPOSED IT, AND ONE
OF THE GROUNDS THAT HE OFFERED
WAS HIS FEAR THAT THE DEPARTMENT
WOULD BECOME, IN EFFECT, A
NATIONAL POLICE FORCE AT THE
BECK AND CALL OF A PRESIDENT TO
EXERCISE INTERNAL POLICE
AUTHORITIES.
AND TRUTH BE TOLD, AT THE TIME I
DIDN'T -- I WASN'T PERSUADED BY
THAT ARGUMENT.
I THOUGHT IT WAS THEORETICALLY
POSSIBLE, BUT IN THE END, SO
SUFFICIENTLY UNLIKELY THAT WE
REALLY SHOULDN'T GIVE ANY
CREDENCE TO IT AND THAT IT
SHOULDN'T STAND IN THE WAY OF
THE FORMATION OF THE DEPARTMENT.
AND, OF COURSE, IN THE END, IT
DIDN'T STAND IN THE WAY OF THE
FORMATION.
BUT AS YOU'VE ALLUDED TO, THE
EVENTS THAT WE'VE SEEN IN THE
LAST FEW WEEKS, ESPECIALLY IN
PORTLAND WITH THE MOBILIZATION
OF DHS LAW ENFORCEMENT
AUTHORITIES TO CONDUCT
ESSENTIALLY INTERNAL POLICE
POWERS IN THE CITY OF PORTLAND,
AND IF THE PRESIDENT HAS HIS
WAY, IN OTHER CITIES AS WELL,
REALLY SUGGESTS THAT THERE WAS A
GREAT DEAL OF JUSTICE IN SENATOR
FEINGOLD'S CRITICISM AT THE
TIME, AND THAT THOSE OF US WHO
SUPPORTED THE DEPARTMENT'S
FORMATION AT THE TIME AND
POO-POOED HIM, IF YOU WILL, NEED
TO OFFER HIM A BIT OF AN
APOLOGY.
HE WAS MORE RIGHT THAN WRONG.
>> I WAS JUST GOING TO SAY, I
APPRECIATE THAT, BUT I WOULD SAY
THERE'S BEEN A TREMENDOUS
MISUNDERSTANDING ABOUT THE
DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE
REPUBLICAN VERSUS DEMOCRAT AND
THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT ISSUE.
NOT ONLY WERE THERE COURAGEOUS
REPUBLICANS UNDER GERALD FORD,
BUT ALSO EVEN UNDER THE BUSH
ADMINISTRATION WHERE I DISAGREED
WITH THE ELECTRONIC SURVEILLANCE
AND TORTURE USE.
JOHN ASHCROFT, THE ATTORNEY
GENERAL, FROM A HOSPITAL BED
STOOD UP TO THE PRESIDENT IN THE
ISSUE OF AUTHORIZING FURTHER
ELECTRONIC SURVEILLANCE, IT WAS
ILLEGAL.
SO IT ISN'T FAIR TO SAY IT'S
JUST REPUBLICANS THAT HAVE DONE
THIS.
I'VE GIVEN A COUPLE EXAMPLES
WHERE REPUBLICANS STOOD UP AT
THE RIGHT TIME AS WELL, SO
THAT'S WHAT THIS IS ABOUT.
SOMEHOW BILL BARR BECOMES A
PERSON WHO PARTICIPATES IN A
FIASCO IN LAFAYETTE PARK
PERSONALLY INSTEAD OF STANDING
UP FOR THE RULE OF LAW AND
REALIZING THAT THE JUSTICE
DEPARTMENT REALLY HAS TO NOT
JUST BE COLORBLIND BUT ALSO HAS
TO BE BLIND WITH REGARD TO
PARTISANSHIP.
THAT'S WHAT WE'VE LOST HERE.
>> SENATOR, CAN RULE OF LAW BE
REELED BACK IN AGAIN?
CAN THIS SOMEHOW BE REVERSED IN
A WAY THAT CEMENTS WHAT EXACTLY
IS MEANT TO HAPPEN BETWEEN THE
JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, THE
PRESIDENT AND THE REST OF THE
NATION?
>> I DO THINK IT CAN BE FIXED.
I THINK WE OBVIOUSLY WILL NEED A
NEW ATTORNEY GENERAL, AND I'M
HOPING THAT WILL HAPPEN ONE WAY
OR ANOTHER.
I ALSO THINK LEGISLATION THAT
WOULD CLARIFY THIS -- USUALLY
WHAT HAPPENS IN THESE CRISES,
AND I CAN UNDERSTAND WHY PAUL
WOULD, AT THE TIME, NOT IMAGINE
SOMETHING LIKE THIS HAPPENING --
I DIDN'T IMAGINE SOMETHING LIKE
THIS HAPPENING.
IT'S USUALLY THE NEXT CRISIS
WHERE A LOOPHOLE LIKE THIS IS
EXPLOITED.
SO IT WOULD BE UP TO THE
CONGRESS AND PROBABLY A NEW
PRESIDENT TO TIGHTEN UP THAT LAW
TO MAKE SURE IT ISN'T USED IN
PLACE OF THE MILITARY, BECAUSE
THE MILITARY HAS STOOD UP TO THE
PRESIDENT AFTER LAFAYETTE PARK.
THEY SAID, WE'RE NOT DOING THIS
ANYMORE.
SO HE'S ABUSING HIS DEPARTMENT
OF HOMELAND SECURITY AUTHORITY.
IT CAN BE FIXED.
>> LET ME ASK YOU, PAUL
ROSENZWEIG.
THE MILITARY DID WHAT IT DID
AFTER THE LAFAYETTE PARK
DEBACLE, AND NOW SOME ARE
LOOKING AT THE SUPREME COURT OF
THE UNITED STATES AND ASKING,
HAVE THEY ALSO RECENTLY ACTED TO
TRY TO KEEP THE GUARDRAILS, THE
CONSTITUTIONAL CHECKS AND
BALANCES, IN PLACE.
LET ME JUST READ -- OBVIOUSLY
YOU'RE MUCH BETTER ADVERSED IN
THIS THAN ME, BUT THE LAWMAKERS
WERE SURPRISED WHEN IT FOUND
THINGS AGAINST THE TRUMP
ADMINISTRATION LIKE UPHOLDING
GAY AND TRANSGENDER RIGHTS AND
HELD THAT TRUMP IS NOT IMMUNE
FROM CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION.
HOW DO YOU READ THAT IN THIS
PARTICULAR ENVIRONMENT, PAUL
ROSENZWEIG?
>> WELL, I THINK YOUR
CHARACTERIZATION IS ACCURATE,
THE SUPREME COURT SEES ITSELF AS
THE GUARDRAILS, IF YOU WILL, OF
DEMOCRATIC NORMS AND THE
EXERCISE OF CHECKS ON EXECUTIVE
AUTHORITY.
IT'S NOT ALWAYS CONSISTENT, AND
IT'S AN IMPERFECT INSTITUTION
LIKE ALL AMERICAN INSTITUTIONS,
BUT I THINK THE STORY OF THE
LAST YEAR OR SO HAS BEEN A
GROWING REALIZATION AMONGST SOME
IN THE COURT THAT THE EXCESSES
OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION ARE
MORE THAN JUST LEGAL ERRORS OR
THINGS ABOUT WHICH REASONABLE
PEOPLE CAN DISAGREE, BUT MORE IN
THE NATURE OF GENUINE
EXISTENTIAL THREATS TO
BEHAVIORAL NORMS OF LIMITING
EXECUTIVE AUTHORITY THAT THEY
ARE THERE TO POLICE.
IT'S BEEN A NARROW-RUN THING,
BUT I THINK AT THIS POINT THE
COURT HAS ENDED ITS LAST TERM
THAT WILL, UNDER THIS TRUMP
ADMINISTRATION, AND, OF COURSE,
THERE MAY BE ANOTHER TRUMP
ADMINISTRATION AFTER THE NEXT
ELECTION, BUT THEY LAID DOWN A
MARKER THIS TIME AROUND, AND I
THINK THAT'S A GOOD THING.
>> AND YET PRESIDENT TRUMP DOES
WHAT HE'S FAMOUS FOR, HE TURNS
WHAT WE MAY PERCEIVE OR YOU MAY
PERCEIVE AS A SETBACK IN THE
COURTS INTO A VICTORY.
THIS IS ACTUALLY WHAT HE SAID
ABOUT THE ROBERTS DECISION ON
THE DACA CASE.
HE SAID THIS EMPOWERED HIM TO
TAKE ACTION.
>> WE'RE SIGNING A HEALTH CARE
PLAN IN TWO WEEKS, A FULL AND
COMPLETE HEALTH CARE PLAN THAT
THE SUPREME COURT DECISION ON
DACA GAVE ME THE RIGHT TO DO.
WE'RE GOING TO SIGN A HEALTH
CARE PLAN AND VARIOUS OTHER
PLANS, AND NO ONE WILL HAVE DONE
WHAT I'M DOING IN THE NEXT FEW
WEEKS.
THE SUPREME COURT GAVE THE
PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES
POWER THAT NOBODY THOUGHT THE
PRESIDENT HAD.
>> SENATOR FEINGOLD, CAN YOU
UNTANGLE THAT FOR ME, PLEASE?
HOW DID THE PRESIDENT INTERPRET
A RULING THAT WENT AGAINST HIM
ON DACA TO HAVING MORE POWERS,
AS HE JUST ENUMERATED IN THAT
INTERVIEW?
>> HE TAKES WHAT HE WANTS FROM
WHAT HE'S TOLD.
IT IS TRUE THE COURTS SAID THAT
PARTICULAR VERSION OF WHAT HE
TRIED TO DO DOESN'T MAKE IT, BUT
THAT DOESN'T GUARANTEE HE CAN
JUST DO ANYTHING ELSE TO STOP
THE FUTURE OF THESE DACA PEOPLE
AND THESE DACA CHILDREN IN OUR
COUNTRY.
THIS IS A POTENTIALLY DISTURBING
MOMENT FOR OUR COUNTRY.
EVEN THOUGH I STRONGLY AGREE
WITH THE SUPREME COURT'S RULINGS
ON VOTING RIGHTS AND CAMPAIGN
FINANCE AND MANY OTHER ISSUES.
WHAT I'VE SEEN RECENTLY I THINK
GIVES THE AMERICAN PEOPLE HOPE
THAT SOMEBODY WITH ITS OWN
BIZARRE VIEW OF HIS OWN POWERS
CAN POTENTIALLY BE CONTROLLED.
>> THAT'S A REALLY INTERESTING
PERSPECTIVE, AND I WANT TO END
BY ASKING YOU, PAUL ROSENZWEIG,
ABOUT ONE OF THE OTHER THINGS
THAT HAVE COME OUT AND NOW BEEN
CONFIRMED BY MARY TRUMP, WHO, AS
YOU KNOW, HAS WRITTEN A BOOK
ABOUT HER UNCLE, THE PRESIDENT,
IN WHICH SHE CONFIRMS THAT SHE
WAS THE SOURCE TO THE "NEW YORK
TIMES" OF SOMETHING LIKE 19
BOXES OF TAX RETURNS, AND THAT
LED TO A VERY THOROUGH
INVESTIGATION BY THE "NEW YORK
TIMES," A PULITZER PRIZE, AND
YET THIS IS WHAT SHE SAID ABOUT
THE FINAL OUTCOME.
>> IT DIDN'T JUST HAPPEN IN ONE
DAY, BUT EVENTUALLY I GOT 19
BOXES FULL OF DOCUMENTS, DROVE
THEM TO MY HOUSE AND HANDED THEM
OVER, AND THE REST IS HISTORY.
ONE OF THE -- IF NOT THE MOST
EXTRAORDINARY PIECE OF
JOURNALISM I'VE EVER SEEN IN MY
LIFE.
>> WERE YOU SURPRISED AT HOW
LITTLE POLITICAL IMPACT THOSE
REVELATIONS SEEMED TO HAVE?
>> I WAS.
YOU KNOW, A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE
RIGHTLY EFFUSIVE AND GRATEFUL
FOR THE BRILLIANT WORK AND THE
STARTLING REVELATIONS THAT
SHOULD HAVE MATTERED.
BUT HOW MANY TIMES HAVE WE SEEN
THIS PLAY OUT?
THIS IS ONE THING THAT I GRAPPLE
WITH TRYING TO UNDERSTAND.
>> PAUL ROSENZWEIG, WHAT SHE'S
BASICALLY SAYING IS THIS WAS NOT
EVEN ENOUGH TO GET SOME
ACCOUNTABILITY, NOT TO MENTION
ALL THE OTHER THINGS BEFORE THE
LAST ELECTION.
NOTHING STICKS, SO TO SPEAK.
TEFLON TRUMP, AS SOME HAVE SAID
ABOUT HIM.
IN TERMS OF RULE OF LAW AND
MOVING FORWARD, HOW DO YOU FIT
THAT LITTLE PIECE INTO THE WHOLE
JIGSAW PUZZLE?
>> WELL, THAT'S A GREAT
QUESTION.
I, TOO, WAS SURPRISED THAT THE
KNOWLEDGE THAT THE PRESIDENT IS
LIKELY A TAX CHEAT IN HIS
PERSONAL AND PRIVATE LIFE HAS
NOT CARRIED WEIGHT, BUT THEN
I'VE BEEN SURPRISED AT THE
INCREDIBLE ABILITY OF THE
PRESIDENT TO AVOID
RESPONSIBILITY FOR HIS ACTIONS
FOR THE LAST THREE OR FOUR
YEARS.
I WOULD SAY THAT I DON'T THINK
THAT IMPUNITY LIKE THAT IS FOR
FOREVER.
AFTER THE NEXT ELECTION, IT MAY
VERY WELL BE THE CASE THAT
OTHERS, WHETHER THE NEW
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE UNDER THE
NEXT PRESIDENT, IF THERE'S A
CHANGE IN ADMINISTRATION, OR THE
STATE'S ATTORNEY IN MANHATTAN,
CYRUS VANCE, WILL BE TAKING A
LOOK AT THESE A LITTLE MORE
SERIOUSLY, AND IT MAY JUST BE
THAT THE RESPONSE TO THEM HAS
BEEN DELAYED RATHER THAN DENIED.
>> WE WILL KEEP WATCHING.
PAUL ROSENZWEIG, SENATOR
FEINGOLD, THANK YOU VERY MUCH
INDEED FOR JOINING US THIS
EVENING.
>>> AND ON THE MATTER OF THE
RULE OF LAW, THE GOVERNOR OF
OREGON HAS NOW SAID THAT FEDERAL
FORCES WILL BE LEAVING PORTLAND.
THE NEXT COVID DILEMMA FOR THE
NATION AND THE WORLD IS OPENING
SCHOOLS AND COLLEGES IN THE
FALL.
EDUARDO PADRON IS PRESIDENT
EMERITUS OF MIAMI-DADE COLLEGE
IN FLORIDA, A STATE WHICH SHOWED
NEW RECORDS THIS WEEK FOR SINGLE
DAY CORONAVIRUS DEATHS.
HIS MINORITY RULES MORE THAN
ANYONE IN THE COUNTRY, AND HE'S
HERE TO TELL WALTER ISAACSON HOW
EVERY STUDENT CAN GET AN
EDUCATION.
>> THANK YOU, EDUARDO PADRON.
WELCOME TO THE SHOW.
>> IT'S A PLEASURE TO BE WITH
YOU, WALTER.
>> YOU'VE BEEN AT MIAMI-DADE
COLLEGE IN MANY DIFFERENT
CAPACITIES, NOW EMERITUS.
TELL ME WHAT MIAMI-DADE COLLEGE
IS GOING TO DO IN THE FALL.
>> THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION, AND I
WISH I COULD TELL YOU.
FRANKLY, IT ALL DEPENDS ON THE
SPREAD OF THE VIRUS AT THAT
POINT.
RIGHT NOW IN FLORIDA, WE'RE
GOING THROUGH SOME VERY, VERY
DIFFICULT TIMES.
AS YOU PROBABLY KNOW, NOW
FLORIDA HAS SURPASSED NEW YORK
IN THE NUMBER OF COVID CASES BY
ABOUT 3,400.
SO IT'S A PROBLEM.
OUR HOSPITALS ARE OVER 130%
CAPACITY, THE ICUs ARE.
AND EVEN LAST WEEK, FOR EXAMPLE,
THE NUMBER OF CASES VARIED
BETWEEN 10,000 AND 15,000 DAILY.
THE AVERAGE OF OVER 100 DEATHS
DAILY.
SO IT'S A SERIOUS SITUATION, SO
IF THAT CONTINUES, I DON'T SEE
HOW WE CAN HAVE ANYTHING OTHER
THAN REMOTE LEARNING COME
SEPTEMBER.
BUT THE HOPE IS THAT IT WILL
IMPROVE, BUT IT WOULD HAVE TO
IMPROVE SIGNIFICANTLY, AND WE'LL
HAVE TO FOLLOW THE ADVICE OF
SCIENTISTS IN TERMS OF WHAT WE
KNOW TO AVOID THE SPREAD OF THE
VIRUS.
BECAUSE THAT IS A BIGGER
PROBLEM.
STUDENTS GOING INTO CLASSROOMS
AND GETTING SICK AND THEN COMING
HOME AND GETTING THE REST OF
THEIR FAMILY SICK, AND NO ONE
WANTS THAT TO HAPPEN.
THE INSTITUTION'S MAIN OBJECTIVE
IS TO PROTECT THE SAFETY AND THE
HEALTH OF THEIR STUDENTS.
SO THAT'S GOING TO BE A NUMBER
ONE PRIORITY.
AND RIGHT NOW THE INSTITUTION IS
PLANNING FOR VARIOUS
POSSIBILITIES.
SO IN-PERSON LEARNING, ONLINE
LEARNING AND A HYBRID SYSTEM OF
LEARNING IN ORDER TO BE READY
FOR WHATEVER IS POSSIBLE AT THAT
TIME.
>> WHAT TRANSFORMATIONS IS
COVID-19 HAVING IN THE WAY WE'RE
GOING TO DO COLLEGE?
>> WELL, THIS PANDEMIC, THE
ETERNAL OPTIMISTS WILL GO AWAY
AND WE WILL GO BACK TO A MORE
NORMAL LIFE.
BUT THIS IS GOING TO HAVE
SIGNIFICANT IMPACT, AND I HOPE
IT WILL.
BECAUSE WHAT THE PANDEMIC HAS
MADE SO REAL IS THE CONSEQUENCES
OF INEQUALITY AND THE
CONSEQUENCES OF OPPORTUNITY FOR
PEOPLE.
AND I THINK THIS IS A GREAT
OPPORTUNITY IN AMERICA TODAY TO
REALLY THINK VERY HARD ABOUT
SOCIAL POLICIES, ABOUT HOW WE
INVEST OUR RESOURCES, AND HOW WE
MAKE SURE THAT THIS COUNTRY WILL
NEVER REACH ITS FULL POTENTIAL,
WILL NEVER ACHIEVE THE KIND OF
PEACE AND THE KIND OF PRIDE THAT
WE NEED TO HAVE AS LONG AS WE
EXCLUDE SO MANY PEOPLE FROM THE
MAINSTREAM ECONOMY.
THESE ARE VALUES THAT ARE
INHERENT IN OUR CONSTITUTION,
AND WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT WE
BRING THEM ALIVE AND THAT WE ALL
WORK VERY HARD TO BE ABLE TO
MAKE SURE THAT EVERY AMERICAN IS
ABLE TO REACH THE AMERICAN
DREAM.
>> TELL US ABOUT YOUR
EXPERIENCE, YOUR LIFE PATH THAT
TOOK YOU FROM CUBA TO MIAMI-DADE
COLLEGE.
>> WELL, I CAME TO THIS COUNTRY
WITH A YOUNGER BROTHER, THREE
YEARS YOUNGER, SENT BY OUR
PARENTS TO THE UNITED STATES TO
AVOID COMMUNISM AND TO BE ABLE
TO HAVE A BETTER LIFE IN THE
UNITED STATES, WHICH I WAS 15
AND MY BROTHER WAS 12.
AND THAT WAS VERY BRAVE FOR MY
PARENTS, BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T
KNOW IF THEY WOULD BE ABLE TO
SEE US AGAIN, BECAUSE IT WAS
VERY DIFFICULT TO LEAVE CUBA.
SO I CAME TO THIS COUNTRY AND
EVERYTHING WAS NEW TO ME.
THE LANGUAGE AND EVERYTHING WAS
NEW.
MY MOTHER SAID SOMETHING TO ME
WITH TEARS IN HER EYES WHEN WE
DEPARTED, AND SHE SAID, NO
MATTER WHAT HAPPENS, ONE THING
YOU'RE GOING TO DO IN AMERICA IS
GO TO COLLEGE.
BECAUSE THAT'S THE ONLY REAL
PASSPORT TO A BETTER LIFE AND
THE AMERICAN DREAM.
SO I COMMITTED TO DO THAT IN
SPITE OF ALL THE PROBLEMS AND
DIFFICULTIES IN FINDING, YOU
KNOW, THE MONEY TO BE ABLE TO
EAT AND SUPPORT US ON.
I HAD THREE OR FOUR JOBS.
I WAS SLEEPING AT THE TIME ABOUT
THREE HOURS EVERY DAY ONLY
BECAUSE I HAD DIFFERENT
PART-TIME JOBS AND GOING TO
SCHOOL.
FRANKLY, WHEN IN HIGH SCHOOL AND
WHEN I FINISHED THAT, I SAID,
WELL, I NEED TO FOLLOW MY
MOTHER'S ADVICE, TO GO TO
COLLEGE.
SO I APPLIED TO SOME OF THE BEST
COLLEGES IN AMERICA.
ONE BY ONE, I GOT A REJECTION
LETTER.
SOMEONE TOLD ME THERE WAS A
SCHOOL CALLED DADE COUNTY UNION
COLLEGE THAT HAD JUST OPENED.
I WENT THERE, WHICH BECAME
MIAMI-DADE COLLEGE, AND THAT
PLACE CHANGED MY LIFE.
THEY GAVE ME THE
SELF-CONFIDENCE, THE SELF-ESTEEM
AND THE SUPPORT I NEEDED AND THE
UNDERSTANDING THAT, YES, I COULD
GO TO COLLEGE AND BE SUCCESSFUL.
AND THE REST IS HISTORY.
I HAVE TO TELL YOU, IT'S A
PLACE -- I CALL IT THE GREAT
EXPERIMENT.
IT IS WHAT I CALL THE DREAM
FACTORY BECAUSE WE'RE SERVING
MOSTLY LOW-INCOME PEOPLE,
IMMIGRANTS, MEMBERS OF
MINORITIES.
WE HAVE MORE MINORITIES THAN ANY
OTHER COLLEGE OR UNIVERSITY IN
AMERICA.
SO IT'S AN INSTITUTION THAT
SERVES AMERICANS IN THE BEST
WAY.
IT'S AN INSTITUTION THAT HAS NO
PRETENSIONS FOR ANYTHING.
WE HAVE AN OPEN DOOR.
ALL WE ASK FOR THEM IS THAT THEY
HAVE A HIGH SCHOOL DIPLOMA.
MANY OF THEM AREN'T PREPARED FOR
COLLEGE.
WE KNOW THEY'LL NEED A LOT OF
REMEDIATION.
BUT THAT'S WHAT WE DO BEST.
WE SAVE A LOT OF LIVES THAT WAY
THAT OTHERWISE WOULD BE IN THE
STREETS.
TO SEE THESE STUDENTS GROW AND
BECOME PRESIDENTS OF THE WORLD
BANK THAT WE HAVE TODAY OR
PRESIDENTS OF FOREIGN NATIONS OR
THE TOP DOCTOR IN THE CITY AND
THE TOP ENGINEERS, HEADS OF
ACCOUNTING FIRMS, THAT IS
SOMETHING THAT IT'S AMERICA AT
ITS BEST.
AND IT'S SOMETHING THAT I THINK
HIGHER EDUCATION NEEDS TO ADOPT
MORE.
>> WHEN YOU SAY HIGHER EDUCATION
NEEDS TO ADOPT IT MORE, ARE YOU
SAYING THE SELECTIVE COLLEGES
AND ELITE ARE NOT DOING A GOOD
JOB ON SOCIAL MOBILITY THE WAY
YOU DESCRIBE MIAMI-DADE COLLEGE?
>> MOST DEFINITELY.
WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT, OUR
HIGHER EDUCATION SYSTEM, WHICH
I'M VERY PROUD OF IN MANY WAYS,
BECAUSE I THINK IT'S THE BEST IN
THE WORLD.
EVERYONE IN THE WORLD WANTS TO
COME TO AMERICA TO STUDY, AND
FOR MOST OF THE LAST TWO
CENTURIES, IT WAS A SYSTEM THAT
SERVED US WELL.
IT WAS CREATED TO SERVE THE
PEOPLE OF THE ELITE.
AND THAT WAS OKAY.
IT WAS OKAY DURING THAT TIME.
WE COULD ACCEPT THAT BECAUSE
MOST AMERICANS, EVEN AS RECENT
AS 40, 50, 60 YEARS AGO COULD GO
INTO FACTORIES AND OFFICES WITH
LITTLE EDUCATION, DOING TASKS,
EARNING A GOOD WAGE THAT WILL
ALLOW THEM TO BECOME MIDDLE
CLASS.
BUY A HOME, BUY A CAR OR TWO AND
PUT THEIR CHILDREN THROUGH
SCHOOL.
TODAY THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE.
MOST OF THOSE JOBS THAT ALLOW
PEOPLE TO DO THAT ARE
DISAPPEARING, AND WITH THE
TECHNOLOGICAL ERA, THE ABILITY
OF AMERICANS TO BE ABLE TO JOIN
THE MIDDLE CLASS, ACHIEVE THE
AMERICAN DREAM, IS VERY MUCH
DIED TO THE ABILITY TO GET A
COLLEGE CREDENTIAL.
SO WHAT I MEAN BY THAT IS
WHOEVER DOESN'T HAVE A COLLEGE
CREDENTIAL IN AMERICA TODAY IS
PROBABLY DESTINED TO STAYING AT
CYCLE OF POVERTY FOR THE REST OF
THEIR LIVES.
WE ARE ABOUT ECONOMIC ABILITY.
I AM PROUD THAT MIAMI-DADE
COLLEGE IS VERY WELL DOCUMENTED
BY THE "NEW YORK TIMES," IS THE
NUMBER ONE COLLEGE OR UNIVERSITY
IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA IN TERMS
OF PROMOTING ECONOMIC MOBILITY,
AND ONE IN THE TOP FOUR
NATIONALLY.
THAT IS WHAT EVERY COLLEGE IN
AMERICA SHOULD BE ALL ABOUT.
YOU KNOW, CHILDREN FROM THE
LOWEST OF THE POOREST POPULATION
IN AMERICA, LESS THAN 50% OF
THEM EVER GO TO COLLEGE.
COLLEGE ACCESS IS HIGHLY
DEPENDENT ON PARENT INCOME.
WE NEED TO MAKE IT AFFORDABLE
AND ACCESSIBLE.
>> SO 100 YEARS AGO WHEN WE
ENTERED AN ECONOMY, WE MADE SURE
HIGH SCHOOL WAS FREE FOR
EVERYBODY.
SHOULD WE BE DOING THAT FOR
COLLEGE, AND WHAT DO YOU THINK
OF JOE BIDEN'S PLAN AND OTHER
PLANS TO TRY TO MAKE HIGHER
EDUCATION UNIVERSAL AND
ACCESSIBLE?
>> FOR THE LAST MORE THAN FIVE
YEARS, I'VE BEEN ADVOCATING FOR
UNIVERSAL ACCESS TO COLLEGE.
AND IT'S INTERESTING, BECAUSE IF
WE KNOW THAT TWO-THIRDS OF ALL
THE NEW JOBS TODAY IN AMERICA
REQUIRE A FULL SECONDARY
CREDENTIAL, RIGHT, IF WE KNOW
THAT IN ORDER TO NAVIGATE THIS
ECONOMY YOU NEED CERTAIN SKILLS
AND CERTAIN SOPHISTICATION AND
LEARNING THAT WAS UNNECESSARY
BEFORE, IT SEEMS TO ME THAT WE
NEED TO DO THAT.
WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND THAT
TALENT IS UNIVERSAL.
IT'S OUR RESPONSIBILITY TO OPEN
THE DOOR OF OPPORTUNITY WIDE
OPEN TO THE MASSES THAT REALLY
NEED THESE IN ORDER TO COMPETE.
YOU KNOW, TODAY NATIONS, STATES,
CITIES COMPETE ON TALENT.
AND WE NEED TO HARNESS THAT
TALENT AND WE NEED TO MAKE SURE
COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES HAVE
THAT RESPONSIBILITY.
MOBILITY IS KEY.
YES, I AM IN FULL SUPPORT OF THE
PROMISE THAT -- I'M CHAIRMAN OF
THE BOARD RIGHT NOW THAT
ADVOCATES FOR PROVIDING STUDENTS
FREE COLLEGE IN AMERICA.
I THINK IT'S THE KIND OF THING
THAT IS REALLY GOING TO ELEVATE,
YOU KNOW, OUR LEVEL OF
COMPETITIVENESS.
IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT, THAT
ACTION OF ABOUT 100 YEARS AGO OF
MAKING HIGH SCHOOL A UNIVERSAL
RIGHT OF EVERY STUDENT, IN MY
OPINION, IT HAS BEEN DOCUMENTED
AS THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT
THING IN THE PREPONDERANCE OF
AMERICA IN THE 20th CENTURY.
A LOT OF THINGS ARE HAPPENING
WITH EDUCATION.
RIGHT NOW IS THE MOMENT WE NEED
TO RECOGNIZE THAT AT THIS TIME,
EDUCATION SHOULD BE A DEFINITE
RIGHT TO EVERY AMERICAN.
>> YOU SAID A HUNDRED YEARS AGO
WE MADE HIGH SCHOOL UNIVERSAL,
THAT WAS THE ENGINE THAT MADE
THE UNITED STATES THE NUMBER ONE
WORLD ECONOMY.
>> ABSOLUTELY.
>> NOW WE'RE NO LONGER NUMBER
ONE WORLD ECONOMY, BECAUSE WE'RE
NOT DOING EDUCATION QUITE AS
WELL, AND PLACES INCLUDING
TALLAHASSEE ARE CUTTING FUNDING
FOR COLLEGES LIKE YOUR COLLEGES.
WHAT IS THAT GOING TO DO TO OUR
ECONOMY?
>> WELL, THIS IS NOT -- TO GIVE
YOU AN IDEA, BETWEEN 2008 AND
2017, WHICH IS THE FIGURES THAT
I HAVE, STATES THAT THE UNITED
STATES COLLECTIVELY CUT SPENDING
TO COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES BY
60%, WHICH IS EQUIVALENT OF
ABOUT $9 MILLION.
MY OWN INSTITUTION TODAY IS
RECEIVING LESS REVENUE FROM THE
STATE THAN WE WERE GETTING IN
2008.
AND THAT IS A REAL PROBLEM.
AT THE SAME TIME THAT THAT IS
HAPPENING, UNIVERSITIES HAVE
INCREASED THEIR TUITION BY ABOUT
31%.
AND MOST OF THAT IS BECAUSE THE
LACK OF REVENUES THAT WE'RE
RECEIVING FROM THE STATE HAS TO
BE MADE UP ONE WAY OR ANOTHER.
SO WHO IS PAYING THE PRICE FOR
THAT?
STUDENTS AND FAMILIES.
AND WHEN THE PRICE OF EDUCATION
BECOMES SO HIGH, IT MAKES IT
IMPOSSIBLE FOR STUDENTS TO BE
ABLE TO AFFORD IT AND FAMILIES
TO BE ABLE TO AFFORD IT, AND
THAT'S WHAT WE HAVE TRIED
GETTING.
IT'S A TRAVESTY.
WE NEED TO STOP SEEING EDUCATION
AS AN EXPENSE AND BEGIN TO SEE
IT AS AN INVESTMENT.
THE RETURN ON INVESTMENT FOR
EVERY DOLLAR YOU SPEND ON
EDUCATION IS BETTER THAN
ANYTHING ELSE THAT I CAN THINK
ABOUT.
SO I'M CONCERNED BECAUSE BETWEEN
2007 AND 2017, THE UNDERGRADUATE
ENROLLMENT IN THE UNITED STATES
FELL ABOUT 8%, 25 MILLION
STUDENTS.
WE NEED TO MAKE SURE WE HAVE
MORE PEOPLE GOING TO COLLEGE AND
NOT LESS.
>> MIAMI-DADE COLLEGE HAS BEEN
SO MUCH BETTER THAN MOST OTHER
INSTITUTIONS IN FOCUSING ON
LEARNING BEING A PIPELINE TO A
REAL JOB, A SPECIFIC JOB.
HOW DID YOU DO THAT AND WHAT
COULD WE BE DOING IN THE FUTURE
TO MAKE SURE THAT EDUCATION
REALLY DOES LEAD TO JOBS?
>> WELL, MAYBE BECAUSE OF MY OWN
EXPERIENCE, BUT I REALLY FEEL
THAT THAT IS SO IMPORTANT,
BECAUSE WE WANT TO MAKE SURE
THAT STUDENTS ARE PREPARED TO BE
ABLE TO ACCESS THE NEW JOBS THAT
ARE BEING CREATED IN THIS
ECONOMY.
AS YOU KNOW, JOBS ARE BEING
CREATED, JOBS ARE DISAPPEARING.
THE ABILITY FOR STUDENTS TO
NAVIGATE A NEW ECONOMY, WHERE IT
WASN'T TOO LONG AGO WHERE PEOPLE
WOULD GO TO A JOB FOR SEVERAL
YEARS, RETIRE FROM THAT JOB AND
GET A PENSION.
TODAY THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS
MOST AMERICANS CHANGE JOBS UP TO
EIGHT TIMES DURING THEIR WORK
LIFE.
YOU CAN NOW GET MANY DIFFERENT
SKILLS TO NAVIGATE THE DIVERSE
ECONOMY.
SO WE HAVE CREATED PARTNERSHIPS
WITH MAJOR CORPORATIONS OF
AMERICA, YOU KNOW, WHETHER IT'S
GOOGLE OR FACEBOOK OR AMAZON OR
TESLA, IBM.
I COULD GO ON AND ON AND ON.
WE HAVE PARTNERSHIPS WITH ALL OF
THESE COMPANIES WHEREBY THE
STUDENTS BENEFIT, BECAUSE BY
WORKING WITH THEM, WE KNOW WHAT
THEY ARE LOOKING FOR IN THE
STUDENTS THEY WANT TO HIRE,
NUMBER ONE.
NUMBER TWO, VERY OFTEN THEY
PROVIDE EQUIPMENT, PROVIDE
OPPORTUNITY FOR EXCHANGE, EVEN
PROVIDE FOR PEOPLE TO TEACH IN
OUR PROGRAMS.
SO WE HAVE THE BEST OF BOTH
WORLDS.
OUR PLACEMENT RATE FOR OUR
STUDENTS IS IN THE 90s.
WHY?
BECAUSE THE STUDENTS ARE GETTING
THE KIND OF EDUCATION THAT
PREPARES THEM TO BE ABLE TO BE
PRODUCTIVE THE FIRST DAY THEY
START THE JOB.
AND THAT IS SOMETHING THAT WE
FEEL VERY PROUD.
WE ARE ALWAYS WATCHING AND
STUDYING WHERE THIS WAS
HAPPENING.
SO IN THE LAST FIVE YEARS WE
HAVE SEEN DATA ANALYTICS IN
SUPPLY CHAIN LOGISTICS,
ROBOTICS, BIOTECHNOLOGY.
I COULD GO ON AND ON AND ON.
THESE ARE PROGRAMS WHERE THE
STUDENTS, WHEN THEY GRADUATE,
THEY WILL NOT HAVE A PROBLEM
FINDING A JOB THAT WOULD PAY
THEM A WAGE AND ALLOW THEM TO
LIVE DECENT LIVES AND TO BE ABLE
TO SUPPORT THEIR FAMILIES.
AND THAT, I THINK, IS WHAT
COLLEGE SHOULD BE ALL ABOUT.
>> EDUARDO PADRON, THANK YOU SO
MUCH FOR JOINING US.
>> THANK YOU, WALTER.
IT'S BEEN A PLEASURE.
>> A REALLY IMPORTANT TUTORIAL
THERE.
>>> AND FINALLY, 1.8 BILLION
MUSLIMS AROUND THE WORLD ARE
CELEBRATING GOD'S APPEARANCE TO
ABRAHAM.
IT COINCIDES WITH THE MOST
IMPORTANT WORLD PILGRIMAGE.
THIS YEAR SOCIAL DISTANCING
COMES TO MECCA.
THESE STRIKING IMAGES SHOW HOW
THE PANDEMIC HAS DRAMATICALLY
CHANGED THE EVENT.
USUALLY OVER 2 MILLION MUSLIMS
FLOCK TO HONOR THEIR HOLY
SHRINE, BUT THIS YEAR ONLY A
THOUSAND SAUDIS CAN ATTEND, ALL
MOVING AMONG THE SHRINE FEET
APART, WEARING MASKS, WRISTBANDS
AND SUPPOSEDLY SPECIAL CLOTHING
THAT AUTHORITIES SAY HELPS KILL
BACTERIA.
>>> THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM
TONIGHT.
REMEMBER, YOU CAN FOLLOW ME AND
THE SHOW ON TWITTER.
THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND JOIN
US AGAIN NEXT TIME.
