- The media, and I don't
mean every single person
in media, of course,
but by and large,
the mainstream media,
the New York Times,
CNN, Washington Post
and the rest of it,
they have been unmasked.
There has been a slow unmasking
over the last couple of years
of, it's not even partisan,
because partisan isn't
strong enough of a word.
They have decided that
they are going to pick
the winners and losers,
they are going to destroy
some people for one thing
while saving some people
for another, right?
A great version of that
right now is what happened
with Brett Kavanaugh
a year and a half ago
versus the protection
racket, really,
a mafia style protection
racket that they've run
for Joe Biden just until
the last couple of days
of us taping this.
(upbeat music)
- Good afternoon,
Michael Malice here.
Let that be your welcome.
We've got with us Dave Rubin.
It's time for the "Don't
Burn this Book" club,
and I am glad to be
covering chapter eight,
which is called "Learn
How to Spot Fake News",
which was my second favorite
chapter of this book.
My favorite was your travels
with Jordan Peterson,
which was really the
highlight, and I can see why
you ended on that one.
This actually has, when
I was reading this book,
I was taking notes in the back,
and I actually
wrote here A plus,
because this has my favorite
line in the whole book,
and I was like, yes, he gets it.
Let me read it to you, and
let me hear you expound
whether you think
this was rhetorical,
tongue in cheek, or
whether it's true.
"But really, putting my
mild exaggerations aside,
"the media truly is a
cabal of hyper partisan
"habitual liars
who are destroying
"an entire industry
from within."
Now, that sounds like a quote
from something I would say.
Is that tongue in cheek?
How bad do you think
they really are?
- I would say it was a
little bit of everything,
meaning it was a
little bit of factual,
a little bit of tongue in cheek,
probably a little
under serving as well.
But before I fully do that,
let me just say
one thing, Malice.
The reason I knew you were the
guy to do this chapter with
is that I think you, perhaps
more than anyone else
in my circle, have been an
acute studier of not just
fake news, but internet
culture that led to fake news,
because people think of fake
news as that's the whole thing
in and of itself,
but the media's just
not that good anymore,
but actually it was
the internet culture and
the trolling that you,
I think, are the
master of explaining,
that led to the
culture of fake news.
We'll unpack some of that stuff.
But as for that line
specifically, yeah,
it was a little sarcastic,
it's a little over the top,
but the heart of
it is exactly true,
which is the media, and I
don't mean every single person
in media, of course,
but by and large,
the mainstream media,
the New York Times, CNN,
Washington Post and the rest
of it, they have been unmasked.
There has been a slow unmasking
over the last couple of years.
It's not even partisan,
because partisan
isn't strong enough of a word.
They have decided that
they are going to pick
the winners and losers,
they are going to destroy
some people for one
thing while saving
some people for another, right?
A great version
of that right now
is what happened with Brett
Kavanaugh a year and a half ago
versus the protection
racket, really a mafia style
protection racket that
they've run for Joe Biden
just until the last couple
of days of us taping this.
It's become a cabal in that
they're all in on it together.
They all protect themselves.
When they see a pile on
coming for a random person,
they all get in on it.
When somebody says something
that is perfectly sensible,
when I released the
book, we did a livestream
where I had Ben Shapiro
and we were talking about
opening up the economy,
and he in effect said
that we're gonna have to
weight some costs and balances
and it might be a
little more dangerous.
- He acted like an actuary.
- It's the truth.
- He said every
actuary, every day,
has to be like, okay, we
have to crunch these numbers.
You can't just make these
decisions based on feelings.
You have to be
economical about it.
Literally, you have no choice.
- Not only that, but anyone
with one flickering brain cell
would know that opening is
going to have some costs,
so when these politicians
and media people
get up there and say,
well, we can't open
until there's no
risk whatsoever,
because any risk would
be too much risk.
It's like that's not reality.
Those are nice words
you've put together
and you've strung
them into a sentence,
which is pretty impressive,
but this is not reality.
Then you watch, Media
Matters then clips it,
and then Vox and Huffpo
and all the usual suspects
that you talk about all the
time, they all get in on it,
and that is why, although
I don't directly quote you,
what you refer to
as the cathedral,
we're watching the machine
break down right now.
I think by and large,
that's a good thing.
- Yeah, I just got my ass
handed to me just today,
and I'm glad to admit
it, just like you
were talking with Larry Elder.
Trump had been accused of
saying that he was speaking
about white supremacists
as very fine people
when literally the rest
of the sentence he goes,
I'm specifically not speaking
about white supremacists.
I had thought that
believe all women
was a right wing talking
point, and I tweeted this.
They said believe women, which
is something we should do.
People do tend to tell the
truth more often than they lie,
and we should give people
the benefit of the doubt
so they feel comfortable
telling their story.
I tweeted this out, and Mollie
Hemingway, within minutes,
was like, no, no, no,
no, no, the hashtag
literally was believe all women.
It wasn't Twitterandos,
this is people like
Carolyn Maloney, who's a
very powerful Congresswoman
from New York, and some
others, and I was shocked
to see how that
just seemed stupid,
because women are human beings,
they're capable of lying.
And now, like you said, on
Joe Biden, the same people
are just pivoting
without batting an eye.
I've always argued that
they've always been this bad,
and now I'm starting to wonder
if they've gotten worse.
What are your thoughts on that?
- See, that's so
interesting, and that shows
how we all look at things
from our own perspective.
It's why you need
to talk to people,
because you have to map
your reality against theirs.
I've usually taken the
counter, which is that
they used to be better and that
something about the internet
and the ability for the rest
of us to now expose them
has just completely
ripped their filter off,
on top of the fact that they
say they're journalists,
and then you see their
pieces, what they're writing.
But then if you look at
everything else they're tweeting
all day long, it's very obvious
what your political biases are.
You guys don't even hide
it, do you know what I mean?
You have New York
Times in your byline
and you'll tweet some articles
that lean a little lefty
or whatever, but then
everything else in your feed
shows exactly what you are.
I've always believed that
it had something to do
with the internet and
exposing the ideas
and that we can see
unedited videotapes.
Look, what you just
said there about
the very fine people moment,
Joe Biden literally launched
his campaign with a
video that quotes Trump
saying very fine people,
and the implication
is that Trump is talking
about white supremacists,
which as you said, is exactly
the reverse of what he said.
But there's a reason he
does it, because he knows
the media will cover
for him, right?
So who tweets about it
then when it comes out?
Scott Adams tried to
unpack it, I retweeted it,
you probably did something,
a few of us that go,
it's not even about
liking Trump so much,
it's just about
what's reality here.
But they all do it together,
so Biden tweets it out,
and he knows no media is
going to call him on it,
so he can just keep doing it.
I think perhaps, and because
we're holding this video
for a little bit as this
Biden story is just breaking,
maybe by the time
we release this
in about a week and a
half, I think it's possible
that the Biden one
almost feels like
it could collapse
the whole system,
because all of the me too
people are exposed right now.
They all said believe all women,
and they're all
supporting Biden.
Now what is left?
What do you people have left?
That's the purpose
of this chapter,
that fake news is not
just fake headlines,
it's about manipulation.
- One of the things I was
curious about, as someone,
you came from the Young Turks
and had a leftist background,
you talk about this very often.
When you are front page
in the New York Times,
and you and Ben Shapiro,
I'm being serious,
are next to an article
that's implying
that you lead to Nazism, or
even just a hatred of any kind,
maybe not literal Nazism,
ha ha, I'm Jewish,
but white supremacy
and so on and so forth.
You know that everyone
you've grown up with,
everyone you went
to college with,
probably reads the
New York Times,
or a large percentage
of them do.
On a personal
level, and you know,
some of them, they're
not gonna care.
I went to high school
with Dave Rubin,
they're gonna see this.
- I didn't know he was a Nazi.
- Yeah, what's happened to him?
He's gone full Nazi.
Is that something
that affects you?
Part of me feels like you
don't want to answer this
because you're giving
them what they want,
but is there part of you
that's affected by this
on a personal level?
- Well, when you
interviewed me for the book,
which we'll link to below,
because you asked me
some of, I think, the most
biting, pointed questions
about all of this.
There's the portion of the
book where I talk about
losing a ton of my hair,
because when I first got hate,
I was getting hate
from the people
that I felt were my friends,
do you know what I mean?
I just started
saying, hey liberals,
let's be a little bit better,
let's care about free speech.
I mean you can see
all those old videos.
It wasn't like I was
saying anything hateful,
and yet they were saying all
these horrible things to me,
and people who were
invited to my wedding
were now calling me a Nazi,
and I literally lost
about 40% of my hair,
and I was spraying
freaking hair on.
People can watch that "Why
I Left the Left" video.
I am bloated and
bags under my eyes.
I looked freaking terrible and
I felt even worse than that.
That being said, and this is
partly the purpose of the book,
I am glad that I
went through it,
I made it to the other side,
and everyone that makes it
to the other side, James
Damore, Bret Weinstein,
Lindsay Shepherd, Ben
Shapiro, the versions of it
that you've gone through.
Everyone that gets through it,
you're stronger
after you did it.
I haven't seen anyone
totally destroyed.
Now, that isn't to say people
haven't lost their jobs,
that isn't to say there
aren't people that aren't
public people who have
had all sorts of things,
but your choice is either
you step up against it
and defend yourself,
so I invited,
what did I do when that New
York Times piece came out?
Literally it had "YouTube's
leading people to the alt right"
with my head was the biggest
head right there above it
in the New York Times.
My dad has had a subscription
to the New York Times
for longer than I'm alive,
something like 45 years.
He had to go to the bagel
place he goes to in Long Island
every Sunday to have a friend
walk up to him and say,
oh, I didn't know
your son, Dave,
is a member of the alt right.
Then my dad has to
call me and say,
what are we talking about here?
They don't really
affect me anymore
in that I don't
get stress over it
because I think I've come
to know it for what it is.
It's sort of like
a red pill moment.
It's scary at first when
you make that choice,
but then you get
on the other side
and when you see
reality for what it is,
it's like these people
aren't going to destroy me,
they're going to
destroy themselves.
That's a little bit of what
I want to impart on people.
I want them to know
either you will step up
and it will suck for a while,
and all sorts of bad
stuff will happen,
but your choice is much
worse, because your choice
is the frog in the boiling pot.
Your choice is to never
live a life that is yours.
Your choice is to never
say what you really think.
I just refuse to live that way,
and I know you're the same.
- Here's the thing, though.
It's easy for us to
say something like this
because you're married, you're
about to start a family,
you have a successful show.
I'm kind of happy in my life.
What do you tell someone who's
like a Nicholas Sandmann?
What do you tell
these cadets who,
there's a headline
that says they appear
to be throwing
white power symbols?
It's really scary
when you're a kid
and now you're in the news,
and people are going to,
even just joking, be like, hey
Nick, when's the Klan rally?
You hear that 20 times a day,
it's not gonna feel nice.
I mean I don't think
it's easy for us to say,
oh, just live your values, but
they don't have that power.
- Well first off, we
should say it's not that
it's easy for us, it's that
we've been through this thing.
So it's easier for me
now, but it's not like
it magically was easy.
To your point directly, look,
Sandmann, I've talked to him,
Nick Sandmann, who
everyone knows.
He was the Covington
kid that got slammed
and slurred by the media
and the whole thing
and it all turned out
to be a fabrication.
I don't know that he's
thrilled that this thing
happened to him, but I know
that as a young person,
he now saw something,
and I think has
a sense of purpose around it.
Another example that I can
give you more specifically
is Kyle Kashuv, who
used to work with me,
or he still does work with
us, but now he's in D.C.
He was one of the
Parkland survivors
who came out as the
gun rights advocate,
so the media ignored
him at first,
while they made the
rest of them heroes
because the rest of
them were against guns,
so they were heroes.
We find the one kid who
believes in gun rights.
We're gonna ignore
him for a while.
Then we don't ignore
him, he's a bad guy.
Well then, what happened to him?
It turned out they
found some Google doc
where he was saying some bad
words with a bunch of friends.
They were just doing
stupid kid stuff
that you do when you're
15 or 16 years old.
I know Kyle, I love him.
There's no way he has a
racist bone in his body,
but they tried to destroy
him and what happened?
Harvard literally
rescinded their offer.
He graduated number
one in his class.
Now I can tell you this.
I know that Kyle is
stronger now than before.
Now again, these may be
outlier cases, and it sucks.
I think you're asking
the right question,
because I'm not denying
that at your job,
people will look
at you differently.
I mean we're not saying
we're real Nazis.
We're literally saying
if you just have
some conservative
thought, if you just have
some libertarian
thought, if you just say,
oh, I watch Steven Crowder
or I watch Michael Malice,
that might be enough to have
these people turn on you.
So I'm not saying it's easy,
but I would also say this.
If you're a young person
going through this,
especially if you're
a high schooler,
but if you're a college
person going through this,
it's not that you should
necessarily come out tomorrow
and just expect no consequences.
Not only should you
expect the consequences,
but you can figure out
ways to tease it out
to your friends so that you're
getting stronger over time.
You don't have to say to
all of your friends at once,
I've been red pilled, let's
fight about it all day long.
You might try it with
one friend first,
test it out, work it.
Everyone has to do it
with their own rhythm.
That's sort of consistent
with the message
that I put forth in the
book, which is I'm not trying
to tell everybody what
to do, I'm really not.
I'm trying to give
you some guidelines
that I think can help get
you through this madness.
- 11 rules for living.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And the 13th rule is.
But you know, the truth
is that a lot of this
is sort of Jordan
Peterson-esque in that
if you're gonna make a decision
in life to be who you are,
it's gonna come with some
cost, and you'd better know
how to stand up for
yourself in the process.
- One of the points
I always harp on
is that there is a difference
between a bias and an agenda,
meaning we're all gonna
have biases probably,
news are gonna be slanted.
We're just simply a
function of our perceptions.
If something feeds into
how we perceive the world,
humans tend to think it's true.
If something contradicts,
well I'm gonna have to hear
some more, because that will
involve a lot of mental work.
One example I use of bias
versus agenda is Stacey Abrams,
who lost the Georgia race
for governor last year
or the year before.
She's front and
center all the time,
despite having no
resume to speak of.
In fact, they decided we're
gonna make this person a star
regardless of the
inputs of the data.
Do you think it's more
of a bias over an agenda,
or am I being too presumptuous?
- No, I think you're ball
parking it pretty well.
She's a good example
of this thing
because she has no resume per se
other than losing the
Georgia gubernatorial race,
which she claims she
won, and the media
and many other progressive
politicians claim she won,
while at the same time
claiming that Trump
is the one that doesn't accept
the results of an election,
of which they are the one
that still don't accept
the results of the
presidential election as well.
I think it's probably a
little bit of mix of both.
Again, this is
where once unmasked,
it just allows them
to destroy themselves.
There was an article,
you probably saw it
in Politico in the
last couple of days,
about Governor Whitmer
in Michigan, who's become
sort of the face of
the authoritarian
governors right now.
She doesn't want
people planting seeds
and doing landscaping.
Politico ran a puff
piece on her that said,
it said something to the effect,
I'm going to slightly
butcher the words,
but this will be
pretty damn close
because I'm not trying
to give fake news here.
It said something to the
effect of you can't find anyone
in Lansing, Michigan,
who disagrees with her.
- [Michael] That
doesn't like her.
Yeah, yeah.
- Yeah, that doesn't like her.
It's like I'm literally
watching hundreds,
if not thousands of people
on Twitter who despise her
who live in her city.
But even if I saw nobody on
Twitter who didn't dislike her,
the idea that you
can't find anybody.
Can't do it, there's
literally nobody.
This woman is Jesus II.
It's incredible, and by the way,
a lot of people
didn't like Jesus,
so that wouldn't even
be a good example.
It's this type of hyperbolic
over the top stuff
that creates this
perception that, oh,
you guys lie about this,
you don't tell me the truth
when it doesn't
fit your narrative,
so let's just burn the
whole freaking thing down.
I think this is
where you might be
a little more of a burn
down kind of guy than I am.
This is where our tension
is, and I love it.
I still want to preserve
some of this somehow,
but you might be right
in the long term,
that maybe I'm just playing
a slower degradation game.
I'm worried that if we
just tear it all down
much faster than it's sort
of organically crumbling,
that what we get left with
is going to be unthinkable.
- You are often
attacked personally.
You are the poster child
for many of these outlets
and they like to pick on you.
Ben gets it much worse than you.
I mean there are
people whose job it is
just to take whatever Ben says
and construe it as whatever,
more often than not.
Let's name names.
Who do you think, what outlet
gets it wrong the most,
in your opinion?
- I mean honestly I
don't want to name names,
not because I'm afraid,
but I don't want to add
fuel to the fire, because
there are literally people
that watch everything I do
praying that I will
say their name.
It's sad, and you know,
the funny thing is
even as we're talking
here, and I try to do this
and we all make mistakes,
but I always try
to talk about ideas,
not about people.
Now when I mentioned Governor
Whitmer a second ago,
it's like I think that
doesn't include politicians.
Politicians, I think you sort
of have to go after them.
Now hopefully you're
going after their ideas.
I didn't attack her personally,
I talked about her ideas.
But I think politicians,
it's a little bit
of a different rule.
There's a certain set of
people that are on YouTube
or podcast or Twitter
or whatever it is
that just, I'm good for clicks.
I left the left and survived.
They don't want survivors.
That really is the truth, right?
It's easy for them to
attack Ben or attack anyone
that was a conservative
the whole way through
because it's like you
were supposed to be
the enemy the whole time.
But when someone wakes up and
walks, and not just walks,
but I've succeeded in
the process of that,
I've thrived in the
process of that,
I've come up with a
cohesive set of views
and I say what I believe
and people enjoy that,
that's the scariest
thing to them.
So I have no need to
give those guys quarter
other than that's just a
matter of what the internet
has sort of become.
And by the way, it's partly
also why I started locals.com,
and Michael Malice
has one of the most
thriving communities
on locals.com,
and he owns it
and sets the rules
and can do whatever the
hell he wants there.
- I'm gonna ask a devil's
advocate question, okay?
The lowest circle in
hell, according to Dante,
was for traitors.
Do you think people on
the left should regard you
as a traitor, and
why or why not?
- Ooh, I like it, Malice.
Am I a traitor?
I'm not a traitor.
Well, I can't speak exactly
to what their beliefs
about me are anymore.
I suppose they would
view me as a traitor.
They view me as,
you can find videos,
I was a Bernie supporter.
The irony is I'm very open
about this whole thing.
You can literally watch me
every week addressing the issues
and you can watch the movement.
It wasn't as if one day I was
like, I'm a Bernie supporter.
- That makes it worse.
You're not even hiding it.
- No, but I'm telling you
that because that shows
that it's authentic.
You could literally watch
videos, you can find them of me,
before the 2016 election,
going I'm a Bernie supporter,
hey liberals, let's
fix this thing,
what's happening to our
side, all of those things.
Then when that "Why I Left
the Left" video came out,
the Prager U video,
that was sort of me
saying good-bye to the left
and let me see what I
can do with the right,
and by the way, there's
been great stuff
happening on the right
for quite some time now,
and sometimes I think sort
of what you said before.
Maybe I was wrong about
the right the whole time.
It doesn't mean the
right's perfect,
but what you said before
about maybe I was wrong
about the media the whole
time, maybe I was wrong
about the right for a
certain period of time.
But that's hard to accept
because it's hard to accept,
oh, the guys that I kept
calling racists and bigots,
they're not racists and bigots.
Maybe I was part of the thing
that was racist and bigoted.
That's a real problem.
Could they think
of me as a traitor?
Well, I have left
their set of ideas
and I have openly spoke
about why I did it,
and I have found new
alliances on the other side.
So if that makes me a traitor,
then I suppose I'm a traitor.
- One of the questions I always
yell at with conservatives
is you guys say that the
media used to be better
and then it got bad.
When, in your minds,
was the media better,
and usually they
don't have an answer.
You actually gave me
an answer, and this is
the first person I've heard
who actually had a good answer.
You put it in 1980.
You put it in 1980
when CNN happened
and the news happened 24/7,
so now you have to have
that much more
content, and inevitably
that's going to lead to
some journalistic standards
declining, and also if only
because you're competing
with so many more eyeballs
in a television setting.
I've always found that
conservatives find CNN
to be much more agenda driven
and dishonest than MSNBC.
Is that your impression?
- First off, let's give CNN
some credit for a moment
because it's not like
you and I do that.
- But you do.
- Yeah, I do because
the point is I remember,
I was in, I think, ninth
grade during the gulf war,
around '91, and CNN was
on the ground in a war.
It was incredible to watch.
I remember being in
school in social studies
and we would watch clips
and they were doing
what appeared to be real
journalism and all that,
so I don't want to
make it seem like
it was all just horrible all
the time and everything else.
To your question, I think
the reason people attack CNN
more than MSNBC, is
that MSNBC leans left,
they tell you they're
leaning left, and so be it.
Also they have some
buffoons on the network.
I mean Al Sharpton was
given a show there.
Maddow spent two
years running with
the Russian collusion hoax
and saw no retribution,
or there was nothing that
happened to her after
in terms of are we gonna
change our thought processes
or how we go about
doing these shows?
CNN was thought of, because
it was the first one,
it was thought of
as more centrist.
I think what's
happened is we all,
regardless of what side
you're on, I think you do,
even maybe subconsciously,
want centrist news.
You want something that
feels kind of decent,
that maybe doesn't
go along with the way
you think all the time,
and I think that's why
CNN gets it all the
time, because they went
from being thought
of as centrist,
they moved a little
bit to the left,
but then the Acosta
thing happened,
the Brian Stelter thing
happened, the activist,
let's lie about everybody
and just dismantle
what journalism is.
The bigger thing that
I've been thinking about
and we'll pick this
up in a future show,
is that a lot of us,
we spend a lot of time
talking about CNN,
and in a weird way,
if we all just stopped
talking about CNN,
almost nobody's watching CNN.
In a weird way, Trump needs
CNN as the rube in this thing.
He needs them as the bad guy.
I'm starting to think
that for the rest of us
that have broken free, maybe
our next step in breaking free
is actually really
letting go of that stuff
instead of reacting to it.
I don't know that
we're quite there yet
because it still can
brainwash a lot of people,
but I think that might
be an effective move
for those of us that have
just moved beyond this thing.
- Okay, last question.
Chris Hayes earlier this
week had a monologue
talking about the Tara Reade
accusations against Joe Biden.
He went into it at length,
very dispassionately,
saying look, it doesn't
matter if you like a person,
if they're prominent, sometimes
these prominent people
do horrible things.
You have to look at the evidence
and throw your emotions aside.
As a consequence of
this, fire Chris Hayes
was trending on Twitter.
So given that his job is
a function of the audience
and he has bosses that
he has to answer to,
can't you say, well, it's not
really the fault of the press,
it's the fault of the population
that are demanding they be
told what they want to hear?
- Ah, that's a classic
good Malice question.
Yes, I think you can.
We're all doing it to ourselves.
It's what I always
say about free speech.
I'm not worried right
now about the government
coming for my speech.
I'm not saying I'm
not worried at all,
but that's not my primary worry.
My primary worry is that we
are doing it to ourselves.
We're actively
silencing ourselves
because we are the ones who
unfurl the mob on each other,
and of course inevitably
it will come for you.
As for Chris Hayes,
I would say this.
He probably just had
his red pill moment,
and I would say in
a year from now,
the Chris Hayes you're gonna see
is gonna be very different,
and probably far more
like Michael Malice than
like the Chris Hayes
we know in 2020, because
suddenly he is going to see
that he said something true,
that we all know is true,
that allegations don't
matter, regardless of
your political
parties and situation.
We all know that's the
way it's supposed to work.
That's all he said, and now
who wants to destroy him?
It's not the conservatives,
it's his own people.
So if he is able
to survive the mob,
which is exactly what
this book is about,
if he's able to do that,
he's on the journey.
So we should pick it up
in one year from today
and see where Chris Hayes is.
A guy who, by the way, has
gone after me many times
and I don't particularly
like, and I didn't feel
like offering him any
defense because of that,
but let's just see
where his journey goes,
and I suspect we know
where this thing ends.
- I've just got one more,
because this just came to me.
Cenk Uygur, from the Young
Turks, they did this to him.
He had David Duke on his show,
which if you had David Duke
on your show, forget it.
They would bring it
up every five minutes.
At the end, David Duke says,
"I'm not an antisemite,"
and Cenk goes, "No,
of course not."
The New York Times
printed that verbatim,
as if he said he
wasn't being sarcastic
and that he took
this at face value.
Did you follow that story, and
how did that make you feel?
- I did.
Listen, I can't believe
you're getting me to do this.
I will defend Cenk
in that moment
because he meant
it sarcastically
from everything
that I could tell.
He meant it sarcastically
as, oh, of course you're not,
but the New York
Times ran with it as,
oh, of course you're not,
meaning you're not antisemitic.
None of this is perfect,
that's the point.
But that right there, it's
like the New York Times
has failed us at
almost every level.
What I'm enthused
by and what I hope
this book will bring forth
more than anything else
is there's a lot of
cool voices out there
that are trying
to fix the madness
and we shall see
if we can do it.
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