>> IT'S ABOUT HISTORY, POLICY,
AND IMPACT.
A NEW PERSPECTIVE ON CURRENT
AFFAIRS, BRINGING EXPERIENCE,
INSIGHT, CIVILITY, AND
SCHOLARSHIP TO THE URGENT ISSUES
OF TODAY.
IT'S ABOUT OUR PAST, PRESENT,
AND FUTURE.
YOUR HOST, PULITZER
PRIZE-WINNING AUTHOR AND
JOURNALIST DOUG BLACKMON.
FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF
VIRGINIA'S MILLER CENTER, THIS
IS "AMERICAN FORUM."
[CAPTIONING MADE POSSIBLE BY
WVPT]
BLACKMON: WELCOME BACK TO
"AMERICAN FORUM."
IT HAS BEEN 240 YEARS SINCE THE
AMERICAN DECLARATION OF
INDEPENDENCE WAS WRITTEN,
LARGELY BY THOMAS JEFFERSON, WHO
WITHOUT DOUBT, AND EVEN IN SPITE
OF THE POPULARITY OF THE
BROADWAY MUSICAL ABOUT ALEXANDER
HAMILTON, REMAINS THE MOST
REMEMBERED, AND PROBABLY, MOST
BELOVED, OF OUR NATION'S
FOUNDING FATHERS.
JEFFERSON'S AGE-OF-ENLIGHTENMENT
IDEALS STILL SHAPE OUR NATIONAL
VALUES, AND HIS LIFE AS A
POLITICIAN STILL INFORMS US IN
MODERN TIMES.
HE WON ELECTION TO THE
PRESIDENCY IN 1800 AFTER ONE OF
THE MOST BRUTALLY NEGATIVE
CAMPAIGNS IN AMERICAN HISTORY.
NOT UNLIKE 2016, THAT ELECTION
WAS A CULMINATION OF A LARGER
STRUGGLE BETWEEN TWO STARKLY
DIFFERENT VISIONS FOR AMERICA'S
POLITICAL ORGANIZATION, AND THE
LOSERS WERE LARGELY OBLITERATED
BY JEFFERSON'S VICTORY.
216 YEARS LATER, WE COULD
WITNESS A SIMILAR TRANSFORMATIVE
MOMENT.
THOUGH, OBVIOUSLY, THE CHOICES
THIS YEAR AREN'T EXACTLY THOMAS
JEFFERSON OR JOHN ADAMS.
[LAUGHTER]
BLACKMON: AS ADORED AS
JEFFERSON HAS LONG BEEN, HE IS
ALSO DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND.
EVEN HARDER TO LOVE.
HE PROVIDED THE PHILOSOPHICAL
BACKBONE OF EQUALITY THAT
POWERED OUR GREAT REVOLUTIONARY
EXPERIMENT IN DEMOCRACY.
HE WAS A BELIEVER IN THE POWER
AND VALUE OF THE PEO
JUST THE RICH.
BUT HE ALSO FEARED THE RABBLE,
AND WANTED THE PLEASURES OF
GREAT WEALTH.
HE BELIEVED IN THE POWER OF
GOVERNMENT, BUT FEARED TOO MUCH
OF IT.
HE WAS GENEROUS TO THE PEOPLE HE
LOVED, AND YET HE ENSLAVED AS A
PERSONAL CONCUBINE THE MOTHER OF
MOST OF HIS OWN CHILDREN.
HE BELIEVED SLAVERY WAS IMMORAL
AND COULD ULTIMATELY DESTROY THE
REPUBLIC.
YET JEFFERSON DID LITTLE TO
BRING IT TO AN END, AND ALLOWED
THE GREAT MAJORITY OF THE
VICTIMS OF HIS SLAVING
ENTERPRISES TO BE SOLD ON THE
AUCTION BLOCK.
OUR GUESTS TODAY ARE TWO OF
AMERICA'S MOST ESTEEMED SCHOLARS
OF JEFFERSON.
ANNETTE GORDON-REED AND PETER
ONUF HAVE WRITTEN A TOTAL OF AT
LEAST 18 MAJOR WORKS ON THE
THIRD U.S.
PRESIDENT.
PETER IS AN EMERITUS PROFESSOR
OF HISTORY AT THE UNIVERSITY OF
VIRGINIA.
ANNETTE IS A PROFESSOR OF LAW AT
HARVARD UNIVERSITY, AND A WINNER
OF THE PULITZER PRIZE AND THE
NATIONAL BOOK AWARD.
THEY HAVE NOW JOINTLY PUBLISHED
A NEW BOOK THAT EXPLORES DEEP
WITHIN THE MAGNIFICENT AND
CONTRADICTORY MIND OF THOMAS
JEFFERSON.
IT'S TITLED "MOST BLESSED OF THE
PATRIARCHS: THOMAS JEFFERSON AND
THE EMPIRE OF THE IMAGINATION."
THANK YOU BOTH FOR BEING HERE.  
SO THERE'S SOMETHING AT LEAST
SUPERFICIALLY IRONIC FOR ME
ABOUT THE BOOK IN THAT BOTH OF
YOU, BUT PARTICULARLY ANNETTE,
OVER THE PAST TWO DECADES HAVE
BEEN ASSOCIATED WITH, FIRST,
THIS RECONSIDERATION OF
JEFFERSON THAT RAISED MANY
DOUBTS ABOUT JEFFERSON, THAT
CRACKS THE IDEA OF HIM AS THE
MOST PERFECT OF THE FOUNDING
FATHERS, BUT NOW THIS BOOK,
WHILE IT'S SIGNIFICANTLY ABOUT
THE SLAVERY QUESTION, AND WE'LL
TALK MORE ABOUT THAT LATER, BUT
IT IS ALSO SEEMINGLY A CALL TO
RECOGNIZE THE OTHER JEFFERSON.
IN SOME SENSE, TO RESTORE THE
JEFFERSON THAT WE THOUGHT WE
KNEW BEFORE SO MUCH OF THIS MORE
RECENT DISCUSSION AND I THINK
THAT'S WHAT “THE EMPIRE
IMAGINATION” IN THE TITLE IS
REALLY GETTING ABOUT.
BUT WHAT EXACTLY DO YOU MEAN BY
THAT, “THE EMPIRE OF THE
IMAGINATION”?
PETER ONUF: ME?
ANNETTE GORDON-REED: YES, YOU.
ONUF: OH, OK.
[LAUGHTER]
ONUF: WELL, DOUG, I THINK THE
IDEA IS THAT JEFFERSON LOOKED
FORWARD.
IN FACT, IF YOU WANTED TO SAY
ONE THING THAT DIFFERENTIATES
JEFFERSON FROM OUR TIMES, MAKES
HIM A FOREIGNER, HIS
SENSIBILITIES SOMEWHAT ALIEN --
YOU MENTIONED BEFORE HOW
ENLIGHTENMENT IDEAS STILL SHAPE
OUR VALUES, BUT THERE'S ONE
FUNDAMENTAL PREMISE OF THE
ENLIGHTENMENT, WHICH IS A BELI
IN THE POSSIBILITY OF PROGRESS
THAT I THINK WE DON'T EMBRACE
WITH THE SAME FERVOR.
THE WHOLE IDEA OF ENLIGHTENMENT
SUGGESTS THAT IT'S CUMULATIVE,
THAT MORE LIGHT WILL BE SHED,
MORE PEOPLE WILL SEE CLEARLY.
AND THAT'S WHAT WE'VE PREMISED
OUR WHOLE EXPERIMENT ON IS THAT
IF YOU ENGAGE THE PEOPLE IN
POLITICS, THEY TAKE IT AS THEIR
OWN, THEY DON'T SIMPLY SUBMIT TO
SUPERIOR AUTHORITY, THEN THEY
WILL BECOME MORE ENLIGHTENED AND
WILL HAVE A BETTER KIND OF
POLITICS THAT'S TRUER TO WHO 
ARE.
THAT'S JEFFERSON'S DREAM.
GORDON-REED: YEAH, AND HE WAS
OPTIMISTIC.
I THINK THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE
GETTING AT.
HE HAD A SENSE OF OPTIMISM
BECAUSE HE'S IN THE AGE OF
ENLIGHTENMENT, THE AGE OF
SCIENTIFIC DISCOVERY.
AND HE SAW SO MUCH OF LIFE,
LIKENED IT TO SCIENCE IN A WAY,
THAT SCIENCE WOULD PROGRESS AND
HUMAN BEINGS WOULD PROGRESS.
SO THE EMPIRE OF HIS IMAGINATION
IS ALL THE THINGS THAT HE SORT
OF THOUGHT WERE POSSIBLE, THAT
COULD HAPPEN WITH THE NEW
REPUBLIC, WITH A NEW NATION.
THAT WE COULD DO THINGS
DIFFERENTLY.
AND SO THE EMPIRE OF HIS
IMAGINATION IS JEFFERSON UP AT
MONTICELLO AND VARIOUS VENUES
THINKING ABOUT WHAT THE FUTURE
WILL BE LIKE AND WHAT WOULD MAKE
A GOOD FUTURE.
AND SO, THINKING THAT THINGS
WERE GOING TO WORK OUT AND
THAT'S THE THING THAT AS PETER
IS SAYING IS DIFFICULT FOR US TO
UNDERSTAND, BECAUSE YOU KNOW WE
SEE WHAT HAPPENED, RIGHT?
AND THEN WE UNDERSTAND ALL THE
STRUGGLE, THE TURMOIL, AND SO
FORTH, BUT HE WAS CONFIDEN
THINGS WOULD GET BETTER AND
BETTER AND BETTER, AND I DON'T
THINK WE REALIZE THAT IT D
PROGRESS IN THAT SORT OF LR
FASHION.
AND I THINK HE REALLY DID SEE
THAT OR THINK THAT PEOPLE GO TO
SCHOOL, PEOPLE BECOME EDUCATED,
THE LARGER MASSES OF PEOPLE,
THEN ENLIGHTENMENT WOULD COME.
BLACKMON: YEAH, AND I THINK THAT
ONE OF THE REALLY IMPORTANT
CONTRIBUTIONS OF A BOOK LIKE
THIS AND A CONVERSATION LIKE
THIS IS THIS REATTACHMENT OF THE
GENIUS TO THE VILLAIN, IF YOU
WANTED TO USE EXTREME TERMS.
BECAUSE WHEN WE FOCUS ON ONLY
ONE OR THE OTHER, WE DISTORT
WHICHEVER SIDE WE'RE PAYING
ATTENTION TO.
AND THE VILLAINY OF HIS
INVOLVEMENT WITH SLAVERY IS NOT
PARTICULARLY UNIQUE.
I THINK WE NOW UNDERSTAND PRETTY
CLEARLY, CERTAINLY NOT EVEN
UNIQUE AMONG THE FOUNDING
FATHERS MOST LIKELY.
WE HAPPEN TO KNOW MORE ABOUT
JEFFERSON FOR A VARIETY OF
REASONS.
YOU GUYS ALSO MAKE THE VERY
INTERESTING OBSERVATION AT T
VERY BEGINNING OF THE BOOK THAT
WE ACTUALLY KNOW A LOT ABOUT
JEFFERSON TODAY THAT WE DIDN'T
HAVE THE ABILITY TO KNOW 20 OR
30 YEARS AGO.
AND THE WAY THAT YOU'RE ABLE TO
BRING A MORE NUANCED
UNDERSTANDING OF THE
COMMUNICATION THAT HE WAS HAVING
WITH HIS RELATIVES AND THE WORLD
THAT'S SURROUNDED HIM, YOU'RE
ABLE TO PLACE BOTH HIS GENIUS
AND THESE LESS WELCOME
DIMENSIONS INTO A CONTEXT THAT
IS ABOUT ALL OF US IN A WAY.
HE'S TROUBLED BY DIMENSIONS OF
SLAVERY, BUT ALSO STRUGGLES TO
FIND WAYS THAT -- WHERE SLAVERY
CAN COEXIST WITH THIS NATURAL
ORDER.
GORDON-REED: HE HAS TO, AND, AND
IN FRANCE, HE IS THERE W
JAMES AND SALLY HEMMINGS, UH AND
EVEN BEFORE HE GETS THERE,
BECAUSE OF THE NATURE OF HIS
FAMILY LIFE, HIS WIFE'S HALF
- SIBLINGS THAT SHE BRINGS,
ALLOWS TO BRING, BRINGS TO
MONTICELLO, HE SEES SLAVERY
THROUGH HIS RELATIONSHIPS WI
THEM, THE PEOPLE WHO ARE AROUND
HIM.
AND HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH THOSE
PEOPLE ARE VERY, VERY DIFFERENT
THAN PEOPLE DOWN THE MOUNTAIN,
AND CERTAINLY IN FRANCE, JAMES
HEMMINGS AND SALLY HEMMINGS ARE
EXISTING IN A SORT OF
QUASI-STATE OF FREEDOM.
ALL THEY HAD TO DO WAS TO
PETITION FOR THEIR FREEDOM AND
IT WOULD HAVE BEEN GRANTED.
EVERYBODY WHO DID THAT IN THE
18TH CENTURY WAS GRANTED, 18TH
CENTURY PARIS IT WAS GRANTED, SO
THEY COULD OF.
COUL-- COULD'VE.
AND HE PAYS THEM WAGES WHILE
THEY ARE THERE.
IT IS SORT OF A STRANGE -- IT'S
DIFFICULT FOR US TO WRAP OUR
MINDS AROUND, BUT HE, FOR HIM,
IT'S SLAVERY AND FAMILY ALL
WRAPPED TOGETHER AND IT'S
SOMETHING THAT ALLOWS HIM TO
MAKE HIS PEACE WITH THE
INSTITUTION.
BEFORE HE GOES OVER, HE IS A
PERSON WHO HAS BEEN VOCAL ABOUT
SLAVERY AND AGAINST SLAVERY.
AND WHEN HE COMES BACK, HE IS
LESS VOCAL.
IN FACT, MOST OF HIS STATEMENTS
ABOUT SLAVERY, I THINK PRETTY
MUCH ALL THE THINGS HE HAS TO
SAY, ARE IN RESPONSE TO PEOPLE'S
QUERIES.
HE'S NOT WRITING TO PEOPLE
PROACTIVELY, AND SAYING, “YOU
KNOW WHAT I THINK?” 
NO, PEOPLE ARE WRITING TO HIM,
AND HE WRITES BACK.
HE JUST SORT OF, HE RETREATS ON
THAT POINT --
BLACKMON: AFTER HAVING ONCE,
AFTER HAVING ONCE INTRODUCED
LEGISLATION UH TO, GRADUALLY
ELIMINATE SLAVERY IN VIRGINIA IN
AN EARLIER POINT.
ONUF: WELL, HE SAYS I'VE ALREADY
MADE MY POSITION CLEAR AND IT'S
GETTING HACKNEYED, I DON'T WANNA
REPEAT IT AGAIN, IT'S UP TO YOU,
AMERICAN PUBLIC, TO DO SOMETHING
ABOUT IT.
GORDON-REED: AND HE'S DOING THE
OTHER THINGS THAT YOU KNOW
REALLY MATTER TO HIM AND THAT'
THAT'S AGAIN THE NEW REPUBLIC.
ONUF: I THINK THAT POINT ABOUT
DOMESTICATING SLAVERY IS
IMPORTANT AND ONE OF THE THINGS
THAT MASTERS DEMAND FROM THEIR
ENSLAVED PEOPLE IS A DENIAL THAT
THEIR MASTERY IS DESPOTIC.
THAT IS, WE EXPECT, IF I OWN YOU
DOUG, I EXPECT YOU TO SMILE.
IF YOU'RE REALLY A SLAVE, DON'T
MAKE EYE CONTACT WITH .
ACT IN A CERTAIN WAY THAT
PERFORMS GRATITUDE.
AND I THINK THIS KIND OF
DELUSIONAL IDEA THAT SLAVERY
WORKS FOR MASTERS AND SLAVES IT
BECOMES PRO-SLAVERY PATERNALISM
COMES OUT OF THIS KIND OF
NECESSARY DAY TO DAY
ACCOMMODATION WITH A LIVED
REALITY.
GORDON-REED: AND CERTAINLY
BECOMES EVEN MORE SO WHEN YOU
HAVE A GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO
ARE RELATED TO IN SOME CAPACITY,
AND THEY'RE REALLY NOT LIKE THE
PEOPLE DOWN THE MOUNTAIN.
HE MAY NOT MAKE THEM SMILE, HE
MAY NOT MAKE THEM SMILE AT HIM,
HE MAY TOLERATE, AND DOES
TOLERATE THINGS FROM THEM THAT
HE WOULDN'T FROM PEOPLE DOWN THE
MOUNTAIN.
AND JUST THINK ABOUT THE
INSIDIOUS NATURE OF THAT WHEN
YOU ARE IN THE SYSTEM AND THE
DELUSION, THE DELUSION IS THAT
WELL, WERE ALL A FAMILY HERE.
THIS IS SOME NATURAL THING THAT
IS GOING ON.
I HAVE SHIRTS MADE FOR JAMES, I
GIVE JAMES SPENDING MONEY, I LET
JAMES AND MARTIN AND ALL THESE
PEOPLE RUN AROUND.
I DON'T KNOW WHERE THEY ARE A
GOOD PART OF THE TIME.
THEY HIRE THEMSELVES OUT, KEEP
THEIR WAGES.
YOU DO THOSE KINDS OF THINGS,
YOU COME -- THAT'S HOW HE --
THAT BECOMES THE FACE OF SL
FOR HIM.
BUT THERE ARE PEOPLE DOWN THE
MOUNTAIN WHO KNOW THAT STUFF --
ONUF: A LOT OF IT'S VERY
ABSTRACT.
HIS NOTIONS OF HOW HE 
OUT FOR THEIR HAPPINESS.
THERE ARE A COUPLE OF WORDS THAT
WE DON'T ASSOCIATE WITH SLAVERY
THAT REALLY NEED TO BE BROUGHT
INTO OUR VOCABULARY.
ONE IS A KIND OF RECIPROCITY.
THAT'S HARD TO SWALLOW BECAUSE
IT'S OBVIOUSLY NOT EQUALIT
IT'S ASYMMETRICAL.
IT'S RECIPROCITY FROM DIFFERENT
POSITIONS, AND THEN THERE'S ALSO
-- THE WORD TRUST COMES TO MIND,
THAT THESE ARE HUMAN BEINGS YOU
TRUST.
THAT'S THE PERVERSION OF
DISTORTION OF EVERYTHING WE
BELIEVE IN.
BUT IT NORMALIZES AND
DOMESTICATES THE INSTITUTION.
JEFFERSON KNOWS IT'S UNJUST,
SOMETHING HAS TO HAPPEN, BUT IT
CAN'T HAPPEN JUST BECAUS
SAYS IT HAS TO HAPPEN.
GORDON-REED: AND IT'S A WEIRD
SYSTEM.
I WAS JUST AT A WORKSHOP A
SEVERAL WEEKS AGO ABOUT POLYGA
-- NOW WE GET TO THIS.
AND JEFFERSON IS LIVING AT
MONTICELLO WITH, YOU KNOW, SALLY
HEMMINGS, HER SISTERS, ELIZABETH
HEMMINGS, HIS DAUGHTERS, AT SOME
POINT, AND THIS WORLD WHERE HE
IS THIS PATRIARCH, IT'S A WORLD
OF WOMEN, ESSENTIALLY, WHO ARE
DIRECTING HIS LIFE.
AND SO THIS IS VERY COMFORTABLE
AT EVERY LEVEL.
THIS IS A COMFORTABLE PLACE FOR
HIM.
BLACKMON: WELL, AND THIS SPEAKS
TO SOMETHING THAT I'VE L
THOUGHT AND WRITTEN ABOUT A FEW
TIMES, BUT THIS NOTION THAT THE
SEEMING CONTRADICTION BETWEEN
ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL AND
THE INSTITUTION OF SLAVERY
THE SEXISM AND ALL THE OTHER
OBVIOUS VIOLATIONS OF THAT
NOTION OF EQUALITY.
THE EXPLANATION FOR THAT, TO ME,
HAS ALWAYS BEEN THAT THE
FOUNDERS, AND CERTAINLY
JEFFERSON, WEREN'T NECESSARILY
SUGGESTING THE IDEA THAT ALL MEN
OR ALL HUMANS WERE EQUAL, BUT
INSTEAD, THAT WHAT WE WERE DOING
IN OUR DEMOCRACY WAS E
ROYALTY TO ALL MEN.
ESSENTIALLY THAT SORT OF
PRIVILEGED STATUS OF ROYALTY IN
EUROPE AND THE ABILITY O
ROYALTY TO SPEAK DIRECTLY TO GOD
AND TO HAVE A DIFFERENT KIND OF
RELATIONSHIP WITH THE CHURCH.
WE'RE EXTENDING THAT OUT TO ALL
MEN, NOT BRINGING IN THESE
NON-MEN.
ONUF: ALL MEN, OF ALL NATIONS
ONE DAY, THAT'S THE
REPUBLICAN-DEMOCRATIC
MILLENNIUM.
SO HE SINCERELY BELIEVES THAT IF
ENSLAVED PEOPLE COULD BE
EMANCIPATED AND EXPATRIATED,
THEN IN THIS WORLD OF NATIONS
THAT ARE HOMOGENOUS, THEY 
LIKE FAMILIES, AFTER ALL.
GORDON-REED: AND THROUGH TRADE,
THOSE KINDS OF THINGS, THEN YOU
COULD HAVE A RELATIONSHIP.
BLACKMON: BUT IF YOU EXTEND
ROYALTY TO ALL MEN, ROYALTY CAN
ONLY EXIST IF SOME ARE NOT
ROYAL.
AND SO THE NOTION THAT FREEDOM,
FREEDOM FOR ALL MEN DEMANDS THE
ABSENCE OF FREEDOM FOR O
PEOPLE IN THAT CONSTRUCTION OF
FREEDOM.
ONUF: IN THE FAMILY, YOU'RE
RIGHT, BUT IF THE RESOURCES THAT
SUPPORT WHAT YOU'RE CALLING
DEMOCRATIC ROYALTY, THIS IDEA
THAT EVERY MAN CAN HAVE HIS OWN
ESTATE, WELL IF THE RESOURCE FOR
THAT IS AN UNDEVELOPED CONTINENT
WITH LAND FOR THE THOUSANDS TO
THE THOUSANDS GENERATIONS, AS HE
SAYS IN HIS INAUGURAL ADDRESS,
WHY CAN'T EVERY MAN HAVE W
ONLY THE ARISTOCRATS WHO -- HOW
MANY PEOPLE OWN THE CITY OF
LONDON EVEN TODAY, DOUG?
I MEAN, THAT IDEA THAT ONLY A
FEW WILL OWN THE LAND.
THAT'S THE WAY THE OLD REGIME
WAS CONSTRUCTED.    
BLACKMON: TALK A MINUTE ABOUT --
YOU ALSO EXPLORE FAITH, AND
THAT'S AN INTERESTING AREA
AROUND JEFFERSON IN WHICH A LOT
OF US THINK WE KNOW SOME
BUT I THINK YOU BRING UP SOME
NEW SUBTLETIES TO SOME OF 
DISCUSSION.
BUTHE'S A VERY COMPLICATED
THINKER ABOUT FAITH AND
RELIGION, AND NOT SIMPLY THE
ATHEIST, THE SORT OF
GOOD-HEARTED ATHEIST THAT SOME
HAVE WANTED TO SEE HIM AS.
GORDON-REED: WELL, THIS GOES OUT
THE ENLIGHTENMENT AS WELL, AND
SCIENCE, AND RATIONALITY
THE BELIEF THAT YOU'RE ONLY
SUPPOSED TO, TO BELIEVE IN
THINGS THAT ARE PROVABLE, OR
SCIENTIFIC.
AND THE NOTION OF TAKING OUT
MIRACLES, AND THE NOTION OF
TAKING OUT ALL OF THE STORIES
OF JESUS' RESURRECTION, AND ALL
THOSE KINDS OF THINGS, THE
DIVINITY OF CHRIST, HE THINKS OF
THIS AS A STEP FORWARD.
HE SEES THAT AS PROGRESS.
AND PORTRAYING JESUS AS YOU KNOW
A GOOD PHILOSOPHER, THE GREATEST
MORAL TEACHER THAT EVER LIVED,
THAT'S ONE THING.
JESUS AS THE SORT OF GOD WHO
PERFORMED MIRACLES, NO, THAT'S
NOT SCIENTIFIC.
BLACKMON: IT'S SUPERNATURAL.
BUT THE WISDOM --
GORDON-REED: BUT THE WISDOM IS
THERE, THE SUPERNATURAL IS OUT.
BUT HE WASN'T AN ATHEIST.
ONUF: NO, AND THAT'S A COMMON
MISPERCEPTION.
WE HAVE TO LOOK FOR WITH
JEFFERSON AND PEOPLE OF HIS
GENERATION AND MANY OF HIS
FELLOW FOUNDERS WERE WHAT WE NOW
CALL DEISTS.
BUT JEFFERSON'S DEISM WAS
INFLECTED VERY MUCH IN THE
CHRISTIAN TRADITION AND COMES
OUT OF THE CHRISTIAN TRADITION.
NATURE'S GOD IS IN THE
DECLARATION.
AND HE COMES OUT OF A TRADITION
OF RELIGIOUS THINKING AMONG
MODERATE ANGLICANS AND OTHER
AND NATURAL RELIGION WAS THE
TERM THAT WAS USED.
THE BIG PROBLEM WITH MIRACLES
AND ALL WHAT HE WOULD LITERALLY
CALL THE NONSENSE OF CHRISTIAN
TEACHINGS IS THAT IT PRIVILEGES
THE INTERPRETERS AND THE
TEACHERS BECAUSE THEY ARE THE
CUSTODIANS OF MYSTERY.
AND IF YOU ARE THE CUSTODIAN OF
MYSTERY, THEN YOU HAVE
AUTHORITY, BECAUSE PEOPLE NEED
YOU.
YOU ARE THE NECESSARY
INTERMEDIARY BETWEEN THE
ORDINARY PERSON AND GOD.
IN EFFECT, YOU ARE MAKING
YOURSELF GOD-LIKE FIGURES IN A
HIERARCHY.
HE IS OPPOSED TO HIERARCHY.
ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL.
THAT WOULD BE AN UNMEDIATED
RELATIONSHIP WITH YOUR CREAT
THAT'S THE CREATOR WHO HAS
CREATED THIS MAGNIFICENT WORL
THAT IS THE REAL MYSTERY THAT WE
NEED TO UNDERSTAND THROUGH THE
AID OF OUR GOD-GIVEN GIFTS TO
UNRAVEL THE MYSTERY.
GORDON-REED: TO REASON.
TO REASON AND TO COME TO YOUR
OWN JUDGMENTS.
AND SO THAT'S THE REAL EMPHASIS
ON INDIVIDUAL CONSCIENCE AND NOT
MAKING -- GIVING ANYBODY ELSE
THE POWER TO MAKE DECISIONS FOR
YOU.
HE THOUGHT THAT CHILDREN SHOULD
NOT BE INTRODUCED TO RELIGION
TOO SOON.
PEOPLE SHOULD GET TO THE POINT
WHERE THEY WERE ABLE TO MAKE THE
JUDGMENT ABOUT WHAT THEY WANTED
TO BELIEVE.
IT'S ALL A MATTER OF INDIVIDUAL
CONSCIENCE.
NOW, HE KEEPS A LOT OF THIS A
SECRET, CERTAINLY --
BLACKMON: WISELY.
GORDON-REED: WISELY, KEEPS A LOT
OF IT A SECRET BECAUSE HE
UNDERSTOOD THAT PEOPLE WOULD NOT
-- PEOPLE WERE FRIGHTEE
ELECTION OF 1800.
PEOPLE TALKED ABOUT BURYING YOUR
BIBLES BECAUSE HE WAS GOING TO
COME AND TAKE THEM AWAY.
AND THAT WAS NOT TRUE AT ALL.
HE HAD NO INTEREST IN DOING
THAT.
BUT HE SAW RELIGION, RELIGIOUS
FIGURES, THAT KIND OF AUTHORITY
THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT,
WORKING WITH KINGS, YOU KNOW,
THE CHURCH, AND, YOU KNOW, THE
MONARCHY, THE PRIESTCRAFT, THE
MONARCHIES AND PRIESTCRAFT
WORKING TOGETHER TO SORT OF KEEP
PEOPLE DOWN.
HE SAID, PEOPLE COULD BELIEVE IN
ONE GOD, OR MANY GODS, IT DIDN'T
PICK HIS POCKET OR BREAKS HIS
LEG.
YOU COULD DO THAT AND EXIST IN
REPUBLICAN SOCIETY, BUT A
SOCIETY THAT HAS A MODE OF FRE
THOUGHT.
BLACKMON: YOU WRITE ABOUT
MONTICELLO, WHAT WE REFERRED TO
AS THE TEMPLE TO HIS NOTIONS, UH
IN SO MANY WAYS A TEMPLE TO HIS
IDEAS ABOUT THE WAY A SO
CAN PROGRESS.
YOU CALL MONTICELLO MORALLY
AMBIGUOUS GEOGRAPHY, I THINK
THAT'S THE LINE.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?
GORDON-REED: MORALLY AMBIGUOUS
-- WELL, IT'S A PLACE THAT'S
TREMENDOUSLY GOOD THINGS --
BLACKMON: MM-HMM.
GORDON-REED: AND TREMENDOUSLY
BAD THINGS.
I THINK I SAID IN "THE HEMMINGS
OF MONTICELLO," IT'S A P
WHERE AMERICANS WERE THE BEST
THAT WE'VE BEEN AND THE WORST,
ALL IN THIS ONE PLACE.
AND IT'S A WAY THAT IT EXISTS IN
THIS TERRITORY, THE GREA
OF IT.
BUT YOU UNDERSTAND THAT IT'S A
SLAVE PLANTATION.
THEY ARE TRYING TO MAKE MANY,
MANY EFFORTS TO TRY AND CHANGE
THAT.
BUT I THINK THAT THAT'S WHAT IT
IS.
THE SENSE OF EXALTED SENSE OF
POSSIBILITY, BUT AT THE SAME
TIME A SENSE OF TRAGEDY.
ONUF: AND JEFFERSON WOULD NOT
QUARREL WITH THIS.
NOW, WE'RE NOT SAYING THAT HE
WAS LOSING SLEEP AT NIGHT
BECAUSE HE SAID “OH MY GOD, I'M
A SLAVEHOLDER.”
BUT HE KNEW SLAVERY WAS A
RADICAL INJUSTICE INCOMPATIBLE
WITH HIS CONCEPTION OF HUMAN OR
NATURAL RIGHTS.
HE UNDERSTOOD THAT ALL HUMAN
BEINGS COULD CLAIM THESE RIGHTS,
THEY JUST COULDN'T CLAIM THEM
HERE AND NOW.
SO HE KNEW HE WAS LIVING WITH
AND ON AN INJUSTICE.
IT WAS PART OF HIS GEOGRAPHY.
IT WAS MORALLY AMBIGUOUS.
BLACKMON: AND I SHOULD NOTE THAT
WE ARE RECORDING THIS AT THE
UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA.
THE UNIVERSITY THAT THOMAS
JEFFERSON FOUNDED, AND JUST A
FEW MILES FROM THE PLACE THAT WE
ARE TALKING ABOUT, MONTICELLO.
I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT THOUGH
TO GO INTO A LITTLE BIT MORE
DETAIL ABOUT WHAT, WHILE THE
SLAVERY THAT WAS HAPPENING AT
MONTICELLO WAS LIKE A LOT 
VIRGINIA'S SLAVERY BY COMPARISON
TO WHAT WOULD COME LATER IN THE
GREAT EXPANSION INTO THE DEEP
SOUTH AND THIS MORE BRUTAL AND
INDUSTRIALIZED COTTON PL
WORLD.
THERE'S NO DEFENSIBLE FORM OF
SLAVERY.
THAT'S A CAVEAT THAT ALWAYS HAS
TO BE SAID.
BUT IT WAS LESS VIOLENT, LESS
CRUEL IN SOME DIMENSIONS --
ONUF: AND MUCH LESS PRODUCTIVE.
BLACKMON: AND MUCH LESS
PRODUCTIVE.
BUT THE -- NONETHELESS, SALLY
HEMMINGS WAS ACTUALLY THE
HALF-SISTER OF THOMAS
JEFFERSON'S WIFE, IF I'VE GOT
THAT RIGHT.
AND WAS, AS HALF-SISTER, WAS,
THERE WERE SIX SLAVES ON THE
PLANTATION, ENSLAVED PEOPLE ON
THE PLANTATION, WHO WERE WERE
HALF-SIBLINGS OF JEFFERSON'S
WIFE.
MEANING THAT JEFFERSON'S
FATHER-IN-LAW HAD A SIMILAR KIND
OF RELATIONSHIP WITH THE MOTHER
OF SALLY HEMMINGS, IF I AM
REMEMBERING ALL OF THAT RIGHT.
ALL OF THIS IS PART OF WHY SO
MANY OF THE JEFFERSON-HEMMINGS
CHILDREN WERE SO LIGHT-SKINNED,
THAT SOME WERE ABLE TO RUN AWAY
AND BECOME WHITE PEOPLE AND --
BUT SO THE DEGREE OF INTIMACY
THAT WAS GOING ON, I THINK IS
UNCOMFORTABLE FOR PEOPLE T
FULLY CONFRONT.
GORDON-REED: WELL, IT WAS THE
SOUTH.
BLACKMON: AND THAT'S MY NEXT
QUESTION.
WAS THIS SOMETHING THAT WAS
UNIQUE TO MONTICELLO?
GORDON-REED: NO, IT'S NOT
ANYTHING UNIQUE TO MONTICELLO.
I MEAN, IT'S PART OF AFRICAN
AMERICAN FAMILIES' STORIES.
IT'S PART OF DNA TESTING O
AFRICAN AMERICAN PEOPLE, THAT
SHOW -- THE TESTING THAT THEY'VE
DONE ON AFRICAN AMERICAN MALES
SHOW THAT DEPENDING UPON THE
COMMUNITY IN THE SOUTH, ANYW
FROM 30, 35% TO 43% HAVE
EUROPEAN Y MALE CHROMOSOMES.
THIS WAS ENDEMIC TO THAT TIME
PERIOD.
EVERY SLAVE SOCIETY HAS THAT.
ROMAN SLAVERY, WHATEVER.
AND YOU KNOW THEY HAVE IT
BECAUSE THE LAWS TELL YOU WHAT
TO DO WITH THE CHILDREN.
BLACKMON: SO I WANT TO ASK YOU
JUST A COUPLE FINAL THINGS.
ONE IS THERE IS NOW THIS BIG
DISCUSSION AROUND THE COUNTRY
ABOUT WHAT WE DO WITH
COMMEMORATIONS OF FIGURES WHO
HAVE THESE FLAWED DIMENSIONS TO
THEIR STORIES, JEFFERSON AND
OTHERS, PARTICULARLY ON THE
UNIVERSITY CAMPUSES SUGGESTI
OF TAKING DOWN MONUMENTS,
SUGGESTIONS OF TAKING AWAY
CONFEDERATE MONUMENTS.
I THINK THAT I ALREADY KNOW THAT
NEITHER OF YOU ARE PROPONENTS OF
DISMANTLING THE JEFFERSON
MEMORIAL OR ANYTHING LIKE THA
BUT THERE IS THERE SOMETHING, IS
THERE ANOTHER INSCRIPTION THAT
OUGHT TO BE AT THE JEFFER
MEMORIAL?
ONUF: WELL, I THINK, DOUG, AND
ANNETTE WILL BE VERY ELOQUENT
ABOUT THIS, BUT I THINK  N
MORE HISTORY, WE NEED BETTER
HISTORY.
WE NEED A PUBLIC HISTORICAL
LANDSCAPE WHICH RECOGNIZES T
HISTORY AND COMMUNICATES IT
EFFECTIVELY TO RISING
GENERATIONS.
I THINK TO GO INTO A KIND OF
NEO-JEFFERSONIAN DENIAL ABOUT
JEFFERSON IS RIDICULOUS, IT'S
FOOLISH, IT FETISHIZES OR
EXAGGERATES OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS AT
THIS MOMENT.
IT'S WONDERFUL THAT WE ARE
BECOMING SO CONSCIOUS, AT LEAST
SOME OF US, ABOUT THE WAY THE
HISTORICAL LANDSCAPE IS NO
CONSTRUCTED AND THE MESSAGES IT
TEACHES.
HOORAY FOR THAT.
THE WAY FORWARD IS NOT TO ERASE
THOSE THINGS THAT ARE
UNCOMFORTABLE, BECAUSE IT'S
PRECISELY THAT DISCOMFORT WH
SHOULD BE MOTIVATING US TO DO
BETTER IN OUR WORLD.
GORDON-REED: JEFFERSON AND
WASHINGTON, PEOPLE OF THAT
LEVEL, YOU CAN'T HAVE AMERICAN
HISTORY WITHOUT THOSE PEOP
YOU CAN'T ERASE THOSE FOLKS.
I THINK THE ANSWER, AS PETER
SAID, IS MORE HISTORY.
YOU COULD CONTEXTUALIZE, EXPLAIN
THE SITUATION, BUT I THINK IT
HAS TO BE A CASE BY CASE B
I THINK THERE'S A BIG DIFFERENCE
BETWEEN BEING ONE OF THE
FOUNDERS OF THE UNITED STATES
AND BEING AMONG A GROUP OF
PEOPLE WHO WANTED TO DESTROY THE
UNITED STATES.
BLACKMON: PETER ONUF AND ANNETTE
GORDON-REED, THANK YOU FOR BEING
HERE.
THEIR BOOK IS "MOST BLESSED OF
THE PATRIARCHS: THOMAS JEFFERSON
AND THE EMPIRE OF THE
IMAGINATION."
WE HOPE YOU'LL CARRY THIS
CONVERSATION FORWARD WITH YOUR
NEIGHBORS, CO-WORKERS, EVE
POLITICAL ENEMIES.
THIS ELECTION YEAR UNDERSCORES
ONE OF THE GREAT LESSONS OF
THOMAS JEFFERSON'S LIFE, THA
EVEN THE MOST EXTRAORDINARY
LEADERS ARE COMPOSED OF BOTH
HUMAN GREATNESS AND HUMAN
SHORTCOMINGS.
WE SHOULD ALWAYS REMEMBER THAT,
AND BE READY TO FORGIVE, EVEN
OUR OPPONENTS, AND TOGETHER SEEK
WAYS TO COLLABORATE
CONSTRUCTIVELY FOR DEMOCRACY.
IF YOU'D LIKE TO SEND US A
COMMENT, GO TO THE MILLER CENTER
FACEBOOK PAGE, OR FOLLOW US ON
TWITTER.
TO WATCH OTHER EPISODES OF
"AMERICAN FORUM," SHARE THEM
WITH YOUR FRIENDS, JOIN OUR
EMAIL LIST, OR READ A TRANSC
OF THIS DIALOGUE, VISIT US AT
MILLERCENTER.ORG/AMERICANFORUM.
I'M DOUG BLACKMON, AND WE'LL SEE
I'M DOUG BLACKMON, AND WE'LL SEE
YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEK ON "AMERICAN
FORUM."
[CAPTIONING PERFORMED BY THE
NATIONAL CAPTIONING INSTITUTE,
WHICH IS RSIT
