: Music plays :
Welcome to Left of Black. I'm your host
Mark Anthony we here at John Hope Franklin
Center at Duke University and we're
joined today by special guest Michaela
Angela Davis who is the owner and
creator of Mad Free, a salon liberating
conversation experience about image
beauty and power. She is a contributor to
CNN she is an image activist and in the
past she has been the executive fashion
beauty and culture editor Essence
magazine editor-in-chief at honey
magazine and the fashion director for
vibe magazine how you doing today
Michaela I am good to be here with you
so let's start with the reason why
you're visiting the area a homie Yaba
Blay
is doing her work on full display and so
you're gonna be part of a keynote panel
yes over North Carolina Central talking
about many of the issues that of course
you're quite familiar with and what's
great is that this has been a
continuation of a conversation with Yaba
where we when we first when I first met
she wasn't dr. Blay than yet but when I
first met dr. blade was CNN when they
had just started the black in America
series and they did a whole a whole part
about on her work the the one-drop
project and I was in that in that series
and it was called who's black right and
so the Soledad O'Brien yeah right so
similar together Diablo was like a
central care central theme in that in
the whole series and then and I was just
one the commentators and we met and I
mean physically you can see how it works
right if we're gonna talk about you know
colorism and and and complexion
complexities we are but we will respect
her right also she's dough you know so
so there are moments in time where you
when you physically kind of meet a
moment and because I I had been
interrogating ideas about narrow
narratives around beauty and
and who's got the power and where that
paralyzed and how that intersects with
you know identity politics
it just was we were just the perfect
pair and then so we've done this
conversation we met through Soledad and
that work and we did a couple panels
then we have had this conversation at
NYU we've had this conversation in
Washington DC and so now bringing it and
this is like this the South this this
land in particular it is really gonna is
significant this the this this landscape
of the American South and where we're
colorism and the and the politics of
blackness and safety and and whiteness
is is in the soil one of the ways that
you describe yourself the work that you
do is as an image activist and so I want
to parse that a little bit right because
on the one hand you know folks here
activism and particularly we're talking
about you know brothers like myself
well we're activism we think about a
particular kind of political activism
and I would dare say that would be black
men in particular that might be apt to
think that image activism is something
that's frivolous right you know what
might you say to that right but I can
say on there now well you know on its
surface because the idea of image I
would say now though it we've gotten to
really understand more the power of
image and then I would say a decade ago
right absolutely the idea that images
influenced us in really subtle and overt
well folks view us right now folks yes
and how we view each other and so the
idea of image is not so much about how
you present but how you are perceived
and so when you say that you are in
action around expanding that narrow
narrative telling the stories behind
images supporting people who are there
advancing
but you're so many people our image
activists but they won't they would you
know define themselves as such but so I
just have decided to define what this is
when we are out there
clapping back you know when when images
are offensive or or erase us or when
we're there kind of supporting when they
do so I think I think now particularly
given social media and the way that now
we exchange images and the way that we
create them I think the idea being image
activists is much more immediately
understood everybody who has an
Instagram account has the ability to be
an agent and how they're presented in
the world which is a breakthrough
because when this work started there was
no Instagram there was no snapchat there
was no Pinterest there was you know it
was largely really interrogating what
was happening in terms of images of
particularly young black and brown
people through music videos because it
was so powerful it's so pervasive so
controlled by corporate platforms that
we needed you know dedicated diligent
activism around like because that had
become the PR campaign for who is what
is black youth in America right it's
like some black women well you know you
got daughters like we were and then the
the the target changed around sort of
the housewife franchise cannot did
another number you know or or like the
reality shows that another number like
the target was moving after music videos
love in hip-hop right and before the I
mean the mother was was um was New York
like when when the reality world saw how
extra black women could be worth it was
gold okay with everything everything we
do is extra so if it if if you like
ratchet black matches is going
was no ratchet without like so it's
whatever whether it's excellence or or
outrageousness burn blackness amplifies
experience right so this experience of
being dramatic and emotionally violent
and unpredictable was television gold
and only black girls could do it in a
certain way and what you what was also
happening was black ensemble on
television particularly with women they
were gone in a narrative if girlfriends
was gone I'm sick no single was a decade
earlier than ensembles of women took
that took their place and so between
music videos and reality television if
you were a black girl in the world
that was your that was your that was the
perception of who you are you know you
were you were emotionally violent you
were loud you were limited and you had
some fierce shoes and maybe a good weave
but you know but other than that it was
it was really problematic and it was um
painful good you know I think about how
genius Motown was right you know very
constantly trying to craft an image
finding the right black bodies if you
will Dinah Ross or someone like that to
represent that you know I go forward to
now and and I think I see a distinct
generational shift and one of the places
where I think I detected it most
strongly recently is the Kendrick Lamar
video for humble and the responsive
young black woman had to Kendra trying
in some way to frame how he viewed his
desire for black women and how it was on
one hand viewed as you know him
dictating to young black women how they
should look and how they should be how
did you read that moment well okay just
full disclosure I'm a huge Kendrick fan
mm-hmm and and I appreciate his honesty
okay and I appreciate his his craft and
his skill his prowess and moreover I
appreciate the complex conversations
that we can have in public now about
image and who you know and and how it's
not black or white it never was and one
is it one of the tenants of being an
image activist is helping to also
advance this idea that there's a lot of
diversity inside of our diversity and
there's not one person that can speak
for all black women like some people
feel liberated oh my god stretch marks
another let alone a black man right work
also you know that I mean even I I see
my own limitations like I was you know I
was naively a little appalled that there
was an app where you can airbrush but I
had no idea my friend show me like you
literally can take your finger and like
change everything right and so I was and
I was particularly moved by people who
were talking about skin care and health
care and then I mean oh my god they're
doing the same thing that we used to
really clap back against there's like
manipulating women's bodies create these
unattainable but here here are people
doing it for themselves
so Who am I to say you know what if
you're 50 years old you should show your
I don't know wrinkles says hope right
and it could does not unlike the
conversations we've had in the past
about women who chose to relax their
hair versus where we're going natural I
mean these are ongoing conversations
right so in some ways this is nothing
new no in the idea but but the idea of
black women having agency and complexity
it's new to everyone other than us and
even sometimes we are shy to to be
public about our ideas about ourselves
and bringing it back to the conversation
that we're going to have
tonight there's been a lot of both on
women who are on the dark side of the
spectrum or in the light skin side like
me you are so aware of your differences
in how you can move through the world
that often as someone who is like
skinned I wouldn't say things in public
in because I'm so interested in
protecting my dark-skinned sisters who I
think have it worse what that this
generation now we are we can have these
complicated conversations because if
we're committed to moving forward we
have to it does you know service for me
to feel it's not pity it's something
it's awareness of the hierarchy that
we've all been participating in however
if you don't understand like now I start
my story by saying I am the
granddaughter of refugees from Jim Crow
from South Carolina hookah my my
grandparents literally ran from their
luck for their lives from a terrorist
cell called the Ku Klux Klan to
Philadelphia to save their lives this
skin is a result a part of that strategy
right light-skinned people rarely went
missing in the night light-skinned
children were not hung on trees
generally so if I've never had that
conversation with you but this is how I
got here like my blonde hair and light
skin is a result of an American Horror
Story and the American love story right
if I continue to hold that in and just
walk around like I know I have I got
this scene and because I don't scare
them because I'm blonde and I can say
you know like I know that's what I know
I know if I know if I look like yeah but
I couldn't have called Dylan roof a
terrorist I know that so where we are
now is particularly as we build
sisterhood mm-hmm it's like we could say
this out I can say this out loud to you
like I know I mean I know that but we
we had been can do even I have been
conditioned to like our brown skin
sisters have it so much harder to shut
up I just be quiet this is having the
conversation how do we do that and also
pretending pretending that I somehow are
taking a space that they would give to
you pretending as if the powers that be
would cast a lava over me like so who
are we serving if I go oh no thank you I
won't take that platform to help
represent us because a darkest get
sister should have it who ain't never
gonna give it to anybody
and we saw that play out with the
debates around the Nina Simone film
goodbye Nina Simone that Rachel Dolezal
like those are my I'm triggered oh my
god I was just so offended by her hair
wrap like how you ain't gonna hear that
wrong like the prosthetic yeah how many
people had to say yes to that right
that's what you know that's that's the
the process you go to all those people
and one of them a black man like David
oh yeah Oh yellow was that was an
executive producer right why do you you
like you from the continent brother like
okay right and in fact he circulates in
the industry because he has a phenotype
that looks a certain kind of way good
even look like Martin Luther King right
but somehow you like so that's what you
know things like that also we see all
the you know where patriarchy sexism all
that stuff really you know when you when
talking about and that's why I again I'm
so this idea of being an image activist
we're able to kind of get all that stuff
in there because the particularly in
America to be black woman your body
holds a lot of these issues patriarchy
racism classism you know overexposure
erasure like all of them all of it yeah
you mentioned Rachel a second all right
I told you I've mentioned her so you
could not mention her who as we're
speaking of course is is on her little
speaking book to her but you got a
teaspoon of CNN in February of 2017
right and you talked about how you were
aware as a kid you know when you moved
into this neighborhood how you couldn't
use the white people there who didn't
quite know what to do with the fact that
your skin seemed to look like theirs but
then the features did right and you know
what it's interesting because it was
more my hair that that triggered the
confusion the blondness of it the blonde
and the NAP enos of it like those who
thinks you don't blonde and that oh my
god are you Jewish you that were very
intentionally it was not coyly or curly
like like Jewish folks or like southern
Italian it was Maddie
like a virgin right so they had that
that combinate that that cacophony was
new to them but what you learned was how
limited the vocabulary of blackness was
the visual vocabulary I they just knew
my nose wasn't like theirs but they
would never go oh that's like a ebo nose
no they disliked you and they did not
know that I was black they did not know
who I was until they saw to whom either
longed and then by association the
things that we're confusing about me
made sense but it did not break the
ignorance like there's still so much
ignorance and around how big blackness
can be and particularly American
blackness because it does we have for
all kinds of reasons for strategy as I
told you before or just sheer people
bumping in and loving each other but how
we've identified who is black
and what is black and that we can range
from someone like you know Lupita or
Yabba to me and all of it is black and
there's a power in that but there's an
there's an intimidation and that and
that's what if if we continue to do the
work that we're doing tonight we're
amongst each other we're healing and
telling truths and building you know
kind of bridges I'm connecting in
sisterhood if we do that
it is a direct affront to and a direct
assault on supremacy because part of the
strategy was keep us fight keep us like
it like getting to be who's closer to my
proximity to whiteness has kept me safer
understood
physically safer but psychologically
spiritually does that I'm not whiteness
is not safe whiteness is not interesting
whiteness is not there's no social where
it's not a sanctuary right no it's not
and to be honest right now given who's
in the White House and the lack of
culture intellect joy dementia culture
yes has really advanced this idea for me
to even think about particularly in the
context of culture what is whiteness
like what is it producing what I mean
because if you can say is it you know
it's not just an is it
capitalism is it force is the monster
trucks and guns like I know and I'm
being really serious like I can see are
you go to Mexico and they're just full
of culture like and like food and
dancing and and presentation and
language and ritual and dress you you go
to Korea or Detroit or used to see what
culture producing beauty and culture
produce
things that will will will define you
right in human history centuries the
culture is power and I'm literally
looking at particularly white man I'm
not talking I'm not talking about like
European that's how my European culture
right or in French or what what does the
white American culture produce and and
what does it produce that that is then
loved or cherished or wanted to be
experienced by other people or the
blandness of it it's so overt to me not
because of who I have to look at and the
white house every day I'm looking at
whiteness in a way that I'd in it is so
bland like where's this and you know
James Bobby I don't know when I first
made read Baldwin me he would describe
it as blandness and that that we that we
are being sold like it is really the
emperor's new clothes like there's no
there there yeah so every time that we
respond to oppression with you know with
jazz and zoot suits and hip-hop and like
all this like stuff and beauty and
there's nothing back but consuming it
right so criminalizing or criminal or or
appropriating but you're not what it
like you come to the party right what
are you variant what are you bringing
and the one thing that you can bring
this really interesting and authentic
you know like some of the music and the
dance culture that's that that is in you
know bluegrass or in Appalachia or is
country music I'm amazing right but it's
not even advanced to I don't know if
there's shame because it's poverty and
pitch and capitalism and is so important
to rightness and and so but I'm really
and this is really over the last couple
of months of looking at almost a hundred
days of this administration
what does whiteness do and why have we
all been like a friend of mine last
night at her hardest talks amazing ours
her name's Teresita Fernandez she did
this piece called
fire America
as she made this point that when
immigrant students come here they are
told not to speak English poor kids I
mean not to speak their native tongue
like if so if your poor Spanish is bad
but if you're rich you're celebrated for
learning a second language but that's
insane you know if you're rich like oh
my child speaks you know French in
English but don't but then I'm gonna
send him to the Mandarin school right
exactly it's crazy what's interesting
now is like all of us because we have
these tools where we can tweet out you
know my friend we can all talk about how
we how crazy this is and it's not just
locked in the Academy are locked in the
essays by you know James Baldwin or
Norah Neale Hurston then in these little
places we have the high to go get or
that they're being hidden from us
because they haven't been taught in
school so now we can say isn't that
crazy that you're poor Spanish kid and
the Bronx is told not to speak Spanish
but if you go you know to the Upper West
Side that rich kid is told it's into a
language immersion school a language
immersion school that was intentional'
that was I think just being around you
and Joe in the process but you know so
what we're able to really now I think
because of this joyless cultureless
administration culture is is being
illuminated like we're leaning it
because we know it's power like we we
know culture is power and in America
black folks got that we're like right we
got that so
leaning into where we know our power is
because of what's going on over there is
really this is an interesting tension or
maybe it's just a survival tactic for
maybe what's going on there is so crazy
that I have to go where to a trust black
culture I trust black
period and so because they've done
nothing but provide inspiration
empowerment stamina for me you know so
yeah you did a poignant video interview
last summer where you talked about your
relationship to your body
mmm particularly after the birth of your
child
yeah and let me be honest you know cars
the table I watched that clip a few
times okay for a bunch of reasons one
because it generally moved me but there
is in fact a moment in the video when I
was like oh you know what
you might remember what moment that was
I was like oh this is when you were
showing you my tattoo yeah it started
yes guys yeah yeah my fuck like coated
tattoo that I got at 50 years old
yeah yeah it's interesting I you know
that I had been in a battle with my body
and so many women have especially you
know I worked in fashion right right for
a while I was in dance culture as a
student and so those are places that are
just so hostile thank you
there's all sorts - and then even what
ideas like what is perfection right so
like when you hear people describe you
know in the dance world as misty
Copeland yeah - chunky right or like or
how we've seen how they treated the
Williams sisters right there are better
athletes - amber right do that game like
how they would talk about the bodies of
champions right it's it's just
fascinating
but not affect but it fascinating on a
lot of levels but so I I you know was
not immune to the toxic environment that
that just being under such a microscope
working particularly working in fashion
I mean I might have had it anyway I mean
so many young women and girls have body
images and that they don't talk about
particularly if you're a woman of color
we didn't talk about anorexia and
bulimia in the 80s like you know you
know if you picked up the Seventeen
magazine so I so I was never really I
never really fully dealt with it but but
when I was pregnant and I had kind of
prided myself on having like flawless
skin whatever that as well as and you
know this the most incredible thing I
ever accepted was my daughter left scars
and I carried them in a way that was not
anywhere near equal to the gift that she
was and so I needed to just mark it you
know I just needed to mark it so I
marked it with a big-ass tattoo oh I'm
sorry
and there were it was liberating I
wasn't done you know and and I think
that's important to note because often
in this sort of instagrammy sort of
everyone everyone's got like mottos and
mantras or things to say not and I do
that too you check my Instagram I know
it's a process right like just because I
put a big old tattoo on my stretch marks
doesn't mean that now I'm cured and I
just like feel you know it means that I
made a step and I'm gonna make another
step and sometimes I go backwards and
and this idea of us not allowing
ourselves a process of healing strips
away our humanity and I don't want to do
that either even though I'm super
interested
and inspiring and empowering us to know
how adult we really are but we're not
only you know it doesn't these snapshots
of our lives it was like oh you did such
a bad news time you know yeah I did but
I went but I was beat up when I got
there you know so it's also how do we
continue to tell the truth while we're
also celebrating yeah yeah yeah yeah
what are you listening to these things
you know what's interesting I've been
going back a little bit I didn't listen
to bad dude like momma gets your gun oh
this is just over the last 48 hours like
almost in repeat but but but some of the
new music what I love the new childhoods
can be you know I love Anderson PAC I
love scissor like this is so dope until
I really and I just broke my um my
addiction I would say to Solange like
that was my morning like I was having
that like a cup of coffee
don't between don't touch my like I
literally because my neighborhood the
colonization is so real and so thick and
so fast like my actual street there are
three horrible things no I mean I'm in
Brooklyn well okay same same story yeah
even worse because problem has less to
build on meaning there's less empty lots
right and there's more big um you know
multi occupant buildings with different
kinds of people it's harder to move out
that many people as West but it's
happening I used to listen to food but
like I would I would rock FUBU in my
head just to go get my morning coffee
just so I would be okay so Solange gave
this to my daughter's said it was this
generation as mis-education and I'm like
you know well that might be right that
might be right
so I broke my daily addiction to that I
love the Safa process that I love his
new album
but but somehow these last couple of
days but I think there was like she
really is she's done it on her own terms
that part that's and I mean it is only a
handful of our of our artists that you
can think about and her little quick
they're like beautiful little art short
films and she's got this new like gold
jewelry that's in her mouth he's just
saying like do you write like and she's
always done that so juice is a
remarkable talent but yeah in terms of
the newness that that's where I'm at I
mean that sort of staff of the salons
yeah what are you listening to what am i
listening to I still listen to a lot of
Rhapsody her last EP I'm listening to
Solange I just started listening to save
the kids
o solo album yeah which is just amazing
yeah yeah you know it's a good moment
for for the music but it's a good moment
for the culture for the culture and then
I mean it's gonna get more in like the
art world is on fire like people like oh
all the new girls are just one p matures
I know last woman with a hard way play
yeah absolutely and then you know also
the Bob Edward and Fidel like the first
black man to lead to be ahead of any
Condon s magazine at British Vogue no
it's a great moment yeah I mean you know
what here it is it's a better moment I
you don't want to be in like I don't
know if it's great we're still we're
still in such denial and battle like I'm
but it's better and I feel like if we
continue to use our culture to lift us
up and move and move us because again we
can trust black culture and we can
it has tried and trued and in the and
and and in this moment of attack this
moment of you know re-trigger terror it
my my I have a 92 year old aunt who was
also a refugee from Jim Crow South
completely traumatized she said that she
feels like the Klan or in suits me in
the White House and that is not that is
not a stretch right so there is truck
there's trauma being triggered by by
this administration by this moment in a
way that is I don't even know what we're
gonna have to study it but our culture
is where we can go we can dip in and
expand and that's where black power is
that's where the power is
yeah we've been joined today by Michaela
Angela Davis thank you for joining us
here left a black this was great yeah it
was good thank you thank you I take it
you never have to fair shot everything
everything
you
