>> [intro music]
>> KAREN: Hey, I'm Karen. I met actual feminism
co-creator and my partner in thought-crime,
Jean, in a corner of the internet called "leftbook",
a collection of loosely related and politically
left-leaning Facebook groups known for its
culture of language policing, dumpster-fire-level
drama, and an obsession with trans discourse.
In late 2018 we set out to explore the landscape
of trans specific groups both inside and outside
of leftbook. After about six months we came
together to discuss our findings. Without
further adieu, Actual Feminism presents: Radfems
in Genderland.
>> [intro music continues]
>> JEAN: So, we're TERFs, and we have created
a sock account which has been inspired by
a number of autogynephile profiles that we've
seen and that autogynephile profile has joined
a very large number of trans Facebook groups.
Of all different types, really. Like actually
there's a very wide spectrum; like some
of them are more political, some of them are
a bit more surgical, some of them are
lifestyle [laughs], some of them are kind
of emotional support
>> KAREN: A lot of them are emotion support.
>> JEAN: Yeah like there seems to be a solid
emotional support vibe for all of them to
be honest, but yeah there's like a huge variety
and like even kind of notable different sub
cultural groups even that occur within those
as well.
>> KAREN: Right, and the reason why we did
this is not just because we're TERFs I
mean we had actually a good... I don't know...
I thought we had like a good reason for doing
it which is that like...
>> JEAN: [laughs] like what?!
>> KAREN: [laughs]...we were accused of of
not knowing enough trans people.
>> JEAN: You were accused of that.
>> KAREN: Yeah, right, I was accused of that
and we had just been looking at profiles and
you were like "I don't see this, like, 'every
trans'... they're all really crazy..."
>> Jean: [laughs]
>> KAREN: and we were like, well maybe if
we can get into more groups... and then we
joined as ourselves Trans Support Circle or
something like that.
>> JEAN: Yeah and what a great intro to groups
that was, the Transgender Support Circle with
stars and rainbows I think it is?
>> KAREN: Yeah.
>> JEAN: And yeah I think maybe from there
I thought... because a lot of the
trans people that we interact with online
all agree that that group is crazy... so maybe
that like, you know, that was kind of the
motivation for looking further afield, going
on a more in-depth journey through trans Facebook
groups to find out what was going on. Actually,
I think one of the things that really motivated
me was that there was a big drama in that
group and then we knew that that was getting
posted in other groups and I wanted to see
like the knock-on drama that had occurred
>> KAREN: Yeah. That's one of the maybe still...
even though we've been in like hundreds of
groups it seems like, that's still one of
the most interesting ones because it has like
20,000 members or something like that and
they kick people left and right!
>> JEAN: Yeah well they used to. I don't know
if they still do, like it's definitely changed
a lot.
>> KAREN: Oh.
>> JEAN: But, yes, what I thought I would
find is normal transes going about
their life and like I probably didn't really
find that very much at all.
>> KAREN: No.
>> JEAN: Very little discourse that I would
call normal and I have very low standards
for normal.
>> BOTH: [laugh]
>> JEAN: Yeah like I really appreciate weirdness.
>> Karen: Right, yeah.
>> Jean: Like, functional weirdness I really
really like. And even funny
weirdness like any of it and there was none
of that.
>> KAREN: No, it's really weird and it's really
uniquely weird.
>> JEAN: Yep.
>> KAREN: And then it like goes into further
subcategories of like uniquely weird...
>> JEAN: Totally.
>> KAREN: ..from each other.
>> JEAN: Yep.
>> KAREN: Do you have a most surprising thing,
like, what you were most surprised by?
>> JEAN: One of the things, and it's very
minor, that resonated with me a little bit
is the sheer amount of selfies that occur
in these groups. And it's to the extent that
quite a lot of trans groups, regardless of
what their topic or focus is, have a rule
in them that's "no selfie posts". Except in
like the admin or moderator designated selfie
posts that only they're allowed to start and
I can only assume that that's because the
group would just be all of these narcissist
posting selfies and the intended discussion
just never occurred.
>> BOTH: [laugh]
>> JEAN: Because, because it was posting selfies.
And there are these guys who post
selfies every day. And not just one selfie
but it'll be a series of selfies, every day.
>> KAREN: And they're almost always the same.
>> JEAN: Very similar, very similar, yep.
But they will not just post them in one group.
I'll see that same group of selfies come up
in about five or six groups, the ones that
don't have the rule.
>> KAREN: Yeah, there's the one who's like
a middle-aged trans woman, who I think works
at a school school.
>> JEAN: definitely some kind of school administrator,
yeah,
>> KAREN: yeah, and like, I don't know I kind
of have a soft spot for him... [laughs]
>> JEAN: sure. [laughs]
>> KAREN: ...but he posts in like four groups
every single day. And we asked him once
like "who's taking these photos of you?" Because
we were thinking that like some
poor aid had to take the photos but he's just
like waiting... I think he's just
waiting until everybody leaves everyday.
>> JEAN: yeah that was the vibe... yeah he
just said "I take them myself" and, yeah,
I guess the only way that that reasonably
could happen is that he just waits till everybody
leaves every day and then stands around the
office taking selfies of himself. And then
he describes his outfit as well... it always
comes with like a paragraph, like a vague
description of what he did that day, how he's
feeling, the clothes, where he bought them,
and how they make him feel.
>> KAREN: yeah, then there's another guy who
takes more sexual photos in the
office. Or at least did that one time. [laughs]
He's like "oh it's not fair that I have to
keep this bra hidden but my boss wouldn't
like this".
>> JEAN: oh my god, yeah, I remember, I remember.
Wait was that.. Oh yeah that's the guy from
New Zealand. Yeah okay I remember that guy.
Yeah he posts a lot of selfies, also describes
his clothes, wears a lot of different wigs,
and talks about the wigs all the time. And
he was the one yeah posted a picture in the
office with his shirt pulled down and his
bra out and talked about how lovely the bra
is
>> KAREN: and he's also posted about like
pretty sexist stuff... I think the the middle-aged
trans women often say like just super cringy,
like... that's what you think a woman is?
Are you serious?
>> JEAN: yeah yeah, definitely.
>> KAREN: I think what surprised me the most,
even though it didn't happen like every day,
but the number of, like, bizarre stories about
being hate-crimed that just could not have
possibly happened.
>> JEAN: sure sure. Are you talking about
the one who always claims that pedophiles
love him?
>> KAREN: Uh I do have that one written down
on my list [laughs] but I was actually thinking
foremost about the one who said that he went
through the drive-thru at a McDonald's in
Sydney, which you told me that the, the neighborhood
that he named was like a real artsy fartsy
gay-friendly neighborhood.
>> JEAN: right, Newtown, yeah.
>> KAREN: yeah, and that he went through the
drive-thru, and that they like didn't give
him his hamburgers or whatever, but they threw
trash in his car, and called him a faggot...
And like, you know, he's so upset and he didn't
have his camera and he was too upset so he
threw away the receipt... and I'm like so
they handed you a receipt after putting...?
>> JEAN: After throwing trash in the car?
>> KAREN: I mean I guess you do pay first,
yeah, maybe it makes sense that he'd have
a receipt but it's like this just sounds so
impossible.
>> JEAN: yeah, look the one about, yeah, Newtown
is, you know, it's very inner city, its new
agey, bourgeois, very artsy area. Like def
it's a very queer area now for sure. Like
it just seems so unlikely that that would
have occurred in Newtown, of anywhere in Australia
almost.
>> KAREN: like that it wouldn't become like
a huge news story or something
>> JEAN: yeah that it wouldn't be a huge deal,
that's right. Yeah for sure and just... McDonald's
as well. Like McDonald's, they're not very
friendly to their staff and extremely friendly
to customers
>> KAREN: right.
>> JEAN: the amount of trouble that a nightshift
crew member would have gotten in just for
calling the customer a faggot let alone any
of the rest of it is astronomical. These are
low-paid casual staff members. They're not
protected.
Karen: yeah some of the stories would be a
little bit more somewhat believable but like
people would just tell these weird stories,
it was always trans women, like these stories
about being harassed and it was just about
like... I don't think anyone could have ever
challenged them even if they thought they
were fake. Like that's the other weird thing
is that feedback in these groups... like no
one's getting real feedback. If somebody is
ugly and not passing and they post a photo
and says like, say like "do I pass?" their
only feedback is like a low number of
likes...
>> JEAN: yeah.
>> KAREN: ...in terms of "no you don't pass".
No one that's gonna say "no you don't pass"
>> JEAN: yeah nobody says that, nobody says
that, but yeah, definitely in like the more
passing, the more likes. That's the metric.
>> KAREN: yeah, exactly. I have one more surprising
moment. It's definitely not a pattern but
it was really funny, which was when... something
that you do see a lot of, like it is kind
of a pattern when you see like a guy talking
about like "I'm gonna come out to my wife
tonight and I'm so nervous."
>> JEAN: yep
>> KAREN: and there was one where somebody
responded "okay but don't be surprised if
she starts cheating on your ass and even brings
her lover to rape you..."
>> JEAN: yeah I know!
>> KAREN: "...that is if she doesn't just
dump you right away but be careful not to
let her lock your cock and her to keep the
keys cuz that round goes for you to become
her slave and her lover's fuck toy and I don't
think that's what you have in mind."
>> JEAN: yes obvious cuckold porn...
>> KAREN: narrative
>> JEAN: ...inspired narrative just thrown
in there about some guy really nervous about
coming out to his wife. Were there responses
to that? I can't remember.
>> KAREN: yeah. Somebody said "that's dark
but I guess it beats being dumped" and just
some other stuff and then they came back with
"they usually don't give a fuck what you have
to say and have no intention to ever hear
you out. The second you do it they either
dump your ass or lose all respect for you
and any love for you as
a man. You become worthless just something
that they tolerate and need to deal with fast
so they move on with their life with a real
man." that's maybe
a little bit more accurate...
>> JEAN: so I think one of the other things
that surprised me was... and I didn't intend
to join this particular type of trans group,
I was just joining all of the trans groups
that I could find. But we did stumble into
one that was quite
clearly for black trans women.
>> KAREN: yeah it's like mostly black, it's
really for straight trans women or homosexual
transsexuals...
>> JEAN: yeah
>> KAREN: in Blanchardian.
>> JEAN: yep definitely but it's definitely
black culture...
>> KAREN: oh yes
>> JEAN: ...in this group for sure. And by
far and away this was the most normal group,
the most rational group of all of them.
>> KAREN: hundred percent a hundred percent.
And like by how crazy the other ones were,
it was like an oasis of sanity.
>> JEAN: Yeah. Definitely, definitely. Like
they were pretty much acutely aware that they
were
male and okay with that. Really not very subscribed
to queer theory in any way.
>> KAREN: No. Sometimes somebody would come
through with it, but then somebody else
would disagree with it, because there's like
all these chasers. Not all these chasers--
>> JEAN: Lots of chasers in there too and
they're okay--
>> KAREN: Yeah, and then sometimes the chasers
are kind of rude, but then they'll be like,
"Well, I respect your opinion though." It'll
just be like people will disagree and nobody
really gets kicked out or banned. You really
have to be so, so rude to be kicked out of
that group.
>> JEAN: Yep
>> KAREN: Just disagreeing is fine.
>> JEAN: Yeah totally fine. They were quite
open about the purpose of their transition,
I guess it's
the way to put it. Although they I wouldn't
say they particularly identified as having
internalized homophobia, but that's definitely
what they were talking about. So they fairly
frequently post quite negative views on on
gay men, like they don't want to date men
that date other men ever.
>> JEAN:or have had sex
with other men they like that seems to
be a fairly common theme
>> KAREN:oh yeah
>> JEAN: Pretty misogynistic I would say.
>> KAREN: Yeah still a breath of fresh air.
>> JEAN: Yeah! Totally! Like, I feel like
they're quite transparent about it at least.
>> KAREN: Yeah, and so the lot of them are
in prostitution.
>> JEAN: Yeah, a lot of them are in prostitution,
yeah.
>> KAREN: And I do think that kind of forces
you to kind of be real about things, especially
if you're black because I think that it's
like you're the most in danger as a trans
person. As a transwoman, if you're black and
in prostitution, so I thinkthey have to be--
they are sort of forced to be pretty real
about stuff. But they will also say things
that I'm like wow you're just gonna (I mean
I'm gonna like
victim blame here but since you're not a victim
yet…) maybe you should have more caution
because they would say things or they would
talk about "Oh, you don't want to spill the
tea cuz you won't get the good men."
>> JEAN: Yeah, yeah. Don't disclose. Don't
disclose that you're trans.
>> KAREN: Right
>> JEAN: Because then you won't be able to
have sex with straight men, basically.
>> KAREN: Exactly, and it's like, "Well, alright,
that might be a dangerous game you're playing."
>> JEAN: Yeah, yeah. Very dangerous living
stuff.
>> KAREN: Yeah. There was also like-- I mean
some people would get almost philosophical,
and it was very poetic, you know, just about
like the culture and about other trans women
bringing each other down or refusing. What
was the one do you remember their...
>> JEAN: I cannot remember her name. I cannot
remember it. Like, I even want to call her
"her", you know.
>> KAREN :I know I know
>> JEAN: But the one of the greatest philosophers
of our time
>> KAREN: So great
>> JEAN: Wait, wait. I'm gonna try and find
it. Okay. All right, I've got an Ethiopia
post. Ethiopia the greatest trans philosopher
by a long stretch.
"You can't fuck with me unless you suck me.
What I look like letting a nigga pound down
my walls
and nut all down my throat, but I dare not
even allow him to touch mines because it
will make him seem gay? It's a little late
to be worried about that. You don't gonna
get fucked but you ain't leaving until I nut
nigga. Play with my titties, rub on, kiss
on my tummy, and lick on my balls.
All you bitches that sit up and pretend that
y'all don't want him playing with your piece,
either one of two things is wrong with that.
One: you's a goddamn liar. Two: you were nothing
more than a personal fuck toy."
it's beautiful. It's beautifu. It fully acknowledges
that they are engaging in a homosexual act
>> KAREN: Mmm-hmm. I love her. I love -- Yeah.
That's one of the highlights because after
a while you've seen so many of these posts
and like so many of the posts, and most the
groups, are almost exactly the same like there's
like maybe ten types of posts.
>> JEAN: Sure
>> KAREN: And they just have an over and over
and over again and there will be like unique
things that are funny about them or interesting
>> JEAN: for sure and these posts were not
controversial either in these groups by the
way I think that's probably worth noting
>> KAREN: right
>> JEAN: that the comments were all pretty
supportive and , "Yeah ,I agree with you."
or like a polite disagreement, but in general
there was fairly wide support for these.
>> KAREN: Yeah, and I think that-- I don't
know how much we can state. I think most people
already have an idea of this, but if you haven't
seen "left book" these Facebook groups that
aren't necessarily trans but are like all
SJW and have all these rules against you know
racism, transphobia, or whatever
like anything outside of these pretty strict
ideas that you need to have and beliefs that
you need to have is slammed and there's threads
being locked and mods are being called and
like people are being kicked
>> JEAN: There's posts about it in other groups
and why they agree or disagree.
>> KAREN: Yeah. I mean I saw today a thread
get locked. Why was it? It was just about
like misgendering and some people were like
"I think it's bad to misgender people but
I also don't respect murderers."
>> JEAN: That was controversial
>> KAREN: Yeah, that was controversial because
it wasn't enough that they agreed that the
murderer
shouldn't be misgendered, they also needed
to agree that murderers deserve respect, or
trans murderers deserve respect. It's just
like, "holy shit!" So, yeah, in this black
trans group it was just like, "Well, you know,
I sort of disagree with you, but you know,
‘You do you'"... Just like, "Oh, that's
so nice; look at these people getting along."
>> JEAN: Yeah, and quite often the opening
post would be quite confrontational and hostile,
or maybe it would just read like that to me.
>> KAREN: No, it really did seem that way.
>> JEAN: But the comments never followed through
with that.
>> KAREN: No
>> JEAN: I have another Ethiopia post as well.
>> KAREN: Okay, yes.
>> JEAN: Look, I'm assuming that she's responding
to dialogue that occurs with in black trans
and chaser communities. So she starts out
by talking about porn. "Y'all hoes be watching
Breed it Raw, Tagger, and Black Breeders in
your personal porn watching sessions. Beating
your meats watching
thug loving. Especially if you like to top,
it's hard to find pleasure in transsexual
porn with black guys
bottoming. So I can understand why gay porn
is more enjoyable for trans women. My issue
is it's okay for y'all to do that, but then
want to act like it's an issue for a guy who
likes trans women to also be into men. it's
the same thing with regular females they don't
mind trans women until they see how masculine
and hard a lot of the men that want to fuck
with us are." Yeah, I don't really understand.
Like women don't mind unless-- Cis-women don't
mind men having sex with trans women except
when the men are hot?
>> KAREN: Yeah it's probably like that. I
mean there is a big thing about making cis-women
jealous
>> JEAN: Yeah there's a lot of that. But it
just really reads to me, I mean, it's not--
Of all the kinds of
misogyny in the world it's pretty non-threatening.
It's just reads like drag queen, gay, gay
community level misogyny to me, not particularly
powerful or structural. [laugh] I'm not for
it, I just it's not a hill I'm dying on.
>> KAREN: Right, right. Does it continue?
>> JEAN: Yes. "So after, when women get upset
about masculine dudes having sex with trans
women, they want to shit on his manhood and
label him a fag. I can understand you not
wanting to date a bisexual man, but they are
still men, and you can't be surprised. I feel
like a man who is into trans
women are not straight. I wouldn't say gay,
but he knows you have or have had a penis.
So to call him
straight, is just feeding into his insecurities".
Amazing, yeah. "We are not men, but we're
not women either. And any of you transgenders
that want to argue, why is your cisgendered
ass in a group for trannies?" I don't really
get that. "This is why they be lying and shit
and shit cause y'all wanna shade them." It
goes on. It's a really, really long post,
but by and large, Ethiopia is talking because
it is really, yes that idea that
>> KAREN: Straight men
>> JEAN: It's only, only straight guys that
have sex with trans women. Or that a guy,
yeah, [laugh] How would you say that? That
a guy who has sex with trans women is not
gay? Or has... I don't know... how would you
say that? There's yeah, the common, the common
discussion about not wanting to have sex with
gay men.
>> KAREN: Right, yeah.I don't know I'm just
I love that it's it really is like acknowledging
you know, "We're not men, but we're not really
women either." They're not gay, but they're
not really straight either.
>> JEAN:Yeah for sure, and I totally agree
with you Ethiopia!
>> KAREN: Yeah, exactly, and it's so like
SO SO different than what happens in any of
the other groups
>> JEAN: Right. Just imagine Ethiopia posting
in Transgender Support Circle.
>> KAREN: She'd be kicked immediately.
>> JEAN: Immediately! Even though she is exactly
the kind of, you know she's basically on paper
like,
>> KAREN: Like the intersectionality
>> JEAN: Yeah, yeah, perfect intersectionality.
She's drug dependent, she's a sex worker,
she's black, she's trans.
>> KAREN: I know, yeah, they're like "not
you" .
>> JEAN: Yeah "Yeah, but you have bad ideas."
>> KAREN: Yeah, exactly, bad ideas that most
people could kind of accept and get on with.
>> JEAN: Totally, and I think that really,
that I think, yeah in terms that would have
surprised me, for sure, overall. That exactly
the kind of population that the trans community
purports to celebrate and support the most,
appeared to me, at least in the isolated context
of that quite large Facebook group by the
way, to be ideologically very divergent .
>> KAREN:there's certainly weren't a lot of
black trans women in that really really big
one in transgender support circle there would
be occasionally there would be I did see like
one black guy who but he looked like he was
like rural guy with like a pickup truck and
like fishing gear like definitely
not the sex worker scene
>> JEAN:these were all very urban like to
me that would be without stalking all their
profiles
>> KAREN: no yeah I think a lot of them live
in Atlanta and a lot of them live in Chicago
yeah so do you have any other funny or surprising
>> JEAN: That's the end of... I was never
surprised again.
>> KAREN: [laughs] I think I'm like a little
bit surprised at least once a month
>> JEAN: Yeah, yeah like they're micro surprises
though.
>> KAREN: Yeah, I think I'm kind of over my
big surprise humps. What was the next thing?
It was about... saddest?
>> JEAN: Do you want to do saddest next? Or
should we do funny? I've got funniest.
>> KAREN: Ok we can do funniest
>> JEAN: Yeah, so one of the funniest things,
easily one of the things that got me the most
lit, I think, because I was so into it for
about 48 hours. I'm pretty sure this post,
which is from November 2018 was the catalyst
for joining all of the other groups because
it was such a big drama, and it was just so
beautiful. So this post is in Transgender
Support Circle which is the group that has
about 20,000
members. Oh, it's only, it's down to 13,700,
but when we first joined it was definitely
15,000 and it went up to 20,000, and somehow
it's culled down. I don't know what happened.
But this was-- so the group was run by-- I
think there were quite a few admins, there's
about four or five admins right? But there
were clearly two top dogs.
It was this transman Silas, and Silas' sidekick,
a trans woman called Stacey. So Silas pretty
routinely would make really antagonistic posts
and then ban anyone that disagreed with them,
which was really one of the highlights of
this group and with watching this go down.
I became a really big fan of Silas, like a
huge fan of Silas. That's the kind of weird
funny that I can get behind, you know? It
doesn't make me sad at all it just makes me
really lit.
So on November 7, 2018 Silas posted "Just
got to vent. I am sooo sick of watching MTF
women coming out and literally the next week
they're buying tampons and pads and complaining
that men don't know how to please a woman
and then bragging about it constantly."
>> KAREN: She's not wrong.
>> JEAN: Yeah, yeah. Silas is broaching into
like dangerously TERFy territory with this
post... "Listen I get it. I do. It helps your
dysphoria, but these are real issues that
AFABs deal with constantly, and it really
sucks to see them being made into a caricature.
These are not problems you want to have I
promise. Men don't know how to work vaginas.
Period. People without vaginas don't know
how to work them. Period. It's awful, and
most AFABs have terrible sex most of their
lives because of it. Penises are easy, all
of them. Always have been. Please stop giggling
about this shit when it's a pretty awful reality
for some of us, and buying tampons and pads,
really, instead of wasting products that AFABs
literally need, just fucking donate them give
them to an AFAB friend. Post them here so
a trans man doesn't have the dysphoric experience
of having to buy them themselves. Stop being
so fucking cringy for like five seconds and
making light of our problem fuck's sake."
and then it went on. It was about a
thousand comments.
>> KAREN: Oh it was so big. And I just want
to state that like using AFABs as a noun is
very TERFy. It's like, it's forbidden because
you're basically saying that there is a group
of people that have a thing in common.
>> JEAN: Yep, that doesn't include trans women.
>> KAREN: Exactly
>> JEAN: In anyway, yep.
>> KAREN: Yeah, there's so many comments on
there,and there's so many good ones.
>> JEAN: Sure, sure.
>> KAREN: I think my favorite one though was
that like somebody gave their reasons for
buying tampons.
>> JEAN: That went on. There was quite a few
where people talked about buying tampons.
Obviously, so obviously, there was a lot of
comments where they talked about "trans women
get periods too" and just the hormonal cycle
and stuff like that. But I mean, that's a
whole thing that's been discussed to death,
and it's just so clearly bullshit, which is
why it's controversial.
>> KAREN: Right. My favorite reason was that
"sometimes friends run out" and that's fair
enough. "Sometimes a stranger in the next
stall asks if you have one." Has that ever
happened to you?
>> JEAN: Never, like never.
>> KAREN: I can think that maybe once.
>> JEAN: Maybe when I was very young.
>> KAREN: Yeah like grade school or middle
school.
>> JEAN: Yeah,yes. Yeah when I was really,
really young.
>> KAREN: Yeah
>> JEAN: I'm sure I would have given a tampon.
>> KAREN: I have way more experience throwing
away tampons that were in my purse too long.
>> JEAN: Yep same.
>> KAREN: And just got like gross and whatever,
and pads started to open. Way, way, way more
experience with that then asking for or being
asked for a tampon. So trans women, if you're
listening, we don't need them. No one's gonna
ask you for them, and if you say that you
get asked for them all the time, I'm not gonna
believe you.
>> JEAN: Yeah I don't believe you. That's
bullshit
>> KAREN: But their best reason was, and this
is a quote "It's also because I don't want
to be raped and murdered. I pass for cis well
enough, but you never know if the person who
means you harm is squeamish enough to run
away when he sees the tampons in your purse.
Sorry, was that cringy? Am I a caricature?"
Nobody said anything. Like that was just accepted
uncritically, that a rapist might go like
"Oh, gross, never mind." when they see tampons
in your purse.
>> JEAN: I just think that that is just a
major projection of that guy's feelings about
periods. I mean that's really it. Like that
he would think that a rapist would be squicked
out by a period means to some
degree that he finds periods a bit squicky.
>> KAREN: Yeah I don't know. Yeah, it's--
wow. What a reason. I mean but I guess if
you're like really really digging deep like
"I want to buy these tampons because I like,
cuz i fetishize being a woman…"
>> JEAN: Yeah
>> KAREN: "...how else can I justify this
though?"
>> JEAN: Yeah
>> KAREN: "while also building up how much
of a woman I am?"
>> JEAN: Yeah totally
>> KAREN: "I might get raped. I don't want
to get raped."
>> JEAN: There's so many gray names in this
post. Esther posted "This post comes across
as a long-winded way of calling trans women
men."
>> KAREN: I saw that one. Yeah and then wait,
didn't Silas say something like-- they had
to back down a little bit there. They had
to backtrack.
>> JEAN: So Silas very early on responds and
says that there are literally posts in this
group about trans, a trans woman posting about
putting tampons in their ass. Which I remember
searching it, and I found it, and it was really
grim. I can see why any self-respecting AFAB
would find that disgusting. And I think that
probably more people should have found that
disgusting, but again the negative
feedback was purely just: no interaction.
>> KAREN: Right, right, because nobody knows
when they're gonna run afoul of something.
I've seen lots of people be very surprised
that their opinion, which is not even transphobic,
or like even -- they can have opinions that
aren't even reasonable, but they're like "not
unreasonable enough."
>> JEAN: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. and
I think yeah you're right that's why people
never post anything even remotely negative
in these groups-- "For pretty TS only" go
for it. Yeah, I think throughout this post
there was just a lot of comments like, this
is the part of it that always just confuses
me so much. Like trans women talk endlessly
about wanting to get pregnant and get uterus
transplants to get pregnant, but then there's
also the huge push for "men can get pregnant,
too" (i.e. trans man can get pregnant too).
>> KAREN: Yeah
>> JEAN: And then it's the same thing with
these periods. Like there's people in calling
them like "feminine hygiene products" and
you know trans men talking about how they
get really dysphoric buying the products.
But then there's the push for "trans men bleed,
too" or whatever. Like it's all just so incoherent.
>> KAREN: Yeah, I know. It's completely incoherent.
It's like if people who do have dysphoria...
it's like
it doesn't mix because it's like, "Well, what
could you have dysphoria about because women
don't have vaginas?"... I guess
>> JEAN: [laugh] Right
>> KAREN: Is there anything else in that post?
>> JEAN: Yeah. Just more of the "I've heard
trans women being totally stoked at carrying
tampons in their purses and being asked if
they have a spare - just carrying some for
when people are in need and being able to
help has apparently been real gender affirming
to some of my AMAB trans femme friends." Oh,
there's a lot like there's a lot in that isn't
it it's just that somebody like clearly the
most delightful part of it is that somebody
thought it was possible that this guy was
having his… could have a period.
>> KAREN: Right. They're kind of openly admitting,
because like to some of them it's just the
act of buying them, right? It's the act of
being seen by a cashier to buy tampons and
I bet that cashier...It's like you know they
think-- that's another pattern in these groups:
a lot of them seem to think that like anyone
not like spitting on them and calling them
a tranny totally believes them.
>> JEAN: [laugh] for sure yeah for sure
>> KAREN: And, you know, there's all these
like cashiers, like you know [imitates barcode
scanner] like scanning the tampon box and
going like "I'm gonna tell my girlfriend about
this when I get home" .
>> JEAN: Yeah
>> KAREN: Like, "Ok, ‘ma'am' it's $5.97."
>> JEAN: Yeah "please don't yell at me."
>> KAREN: Yeah "please don't yell at me."
Both: [laugh]
>> KAREN: Well I mean, yeah. I know we just
sound so evil like laughing at these people
‘cause they really are mentally ill, but
they insist they're not, so I guess we're
allowed to laugh at them. We're allowed to
believe them.
>> JEAN: Yep ok. I've got a good comment here
"I keep pads in my purse because most of my
friends are cis girls, and all my girls know
that if they're in need I've always got their
back. " Let's check out this cunt's profile.
>> KAREN: I know that's the other thing a
lot of people will make claims about themselves
and then you look at their profile, you're
like nnnnooope.
>> JEAN: mmmmm... probably not though. [laughs]
ok
"I keep pads in my purse because most of my
friends are cis girls, and ALL my girls know
that if they're in need I've always got their
back. I feel no need to defend my, umm, ability
to "work vaginas". My cis lesbian girlfriend
has plenty to say on that subject, and laughed
and said some of those things when I read
this post aloud to her. But I'll respond to
the penises are easy comment:
I'll give you $10,000 if you can "work" mine
[I'm being facetious here, I'd totally pay
that much but I'm not soliciting you or anyone
else] 2.5 years of estrogen is a hell of a
drug, and when your body is run on estrogen
the methods of making that all work changes.
Some trans women's parts lose function all
together. Some, like me, work but take a half
hour of foreplay to really "get into it" and
get everything working. Takes me longer than
it takes my vagina owning girlfriend to get
ready. And yeah, men do suck in bed, and it
has nothing to do with the shape of their
bodies or their plumbing. Considering that
every lady I've had in my bed either knows
what they're doing or learns quickly, and
every man I've ever allowed in my bed has
been a complete failure in that regard.
And to be completely clear, I'm a hoe. I've
had more guys than I can count, and not a
single orgasm with a man, ever. Ever. EVER!!"
edited to add that includes both ladies with
outies and men with innies who've shared my
bed.
I'm a sex worker. This is my b--." Bailiwick?
I don't know that word is.
>> KAREN: How true do you think that is?
>> JEAN: I mean, I believe that this person
is probably a sex worker. And looking at the
profile not particularly unattractive either,
looks fine.
>> KAREN: Probably gets laid.
>> JEAN: Yeah, probably gets laid, you know.
Like at the very least, like the photos -- I
mean they're very horny on Main. Like there's
lots of ass pics, and, yeah, like, lots of
ass pics on Main and various, kind of, down-cleavage
shots. Also claiming to be a Dominatrix.
>> KAREN: Okay
>> JEAN: Some fairly mental postings, now
single, so this was about six months ago.
I guess the cis lesbian girlfriend has called
it a day. I really liked the comment about
not soliciting you or anyone else, like that
needed to be clarified.
>> KAREN: No, I mean, but you kind of have
to. Like everything is a potential landmine
clearly they were making a point that like
"my dick doesn't work very well", but like
if they hadn't put that little like bracket
and then Silas, if they decided to respond,
wouldn't need to respond to any of it and
could just pretend to be offended.
>> JEAN: About being solicited for sex. That's
a good point.
>> KAREN: You have to, like, build up all
of your arguments with all these caveats and
other things like so nobody attacks you. Yeah.
Oh, do you have more on that one you want
to read?
>> JEAN: Yeah. So there's a comment here that
backs up what you're saying. So, opening comment,
"I don't get why someone would want to buy
Shark Week hygiene products unless they absolutely
need them. That seems so weird." And then
the response is, "The actual purchase is validating.
Cashier looks at how I dress and that I'm
buying them, and even if she doubts it, kind
of assumes I am what I say I am." No real
inkling that the cashier is ambivalent about
‘you are what you say you are.'
>> KAREN: Does that mean that like every time
they have to go to Walgreens and buy something,
or like, you know, a drug store, or every
time they have to go to the grocery store
to buy something they
have to buy a box of tampons? They must be,
like, so stocked up with tampons.
>> JEAN: Or, do you think that potentially
like they're feeling a bit down and they make
they make a day of it?
>> KAREN: Yeah maybe
>> JEAN: Going and buying some tampons?
>> KAREN: Yeah, because it, yeah. So they
are saying, like, it's a gender- affirming
experience, because sometimes they'll do stuff
under the guise of like "staying safe out
there." Like it's so important that people
think that they're cis women, or they're gonna
be murdered in the streets. And it's often
people who do not pass who make these comments
about how they need all this makeup, and they
need these heels, and they need these things,
because if somehow they don't wear them, they're
gonna be murdered. It's like the things that
trans women do to not be murdered.
>> JEAN: Not to laugh at people being murdered,
but yeah it's so statistically unlikely that
they will be murdered unless they're like
living dangerously. Like the women in "For
Pretty TS Only" exactly.
>> KAREN: Who don't give a shit
>> JEAN: Yeah, yeah. for sure yeah. That's
probably all I've got on there ok. Actually
Samara said, "I'd still tampons for my AFABs
in need during public events." What public
event would that be?
>> KAREN: Oh, MichFest.
>> BOTH: [laugh]
>> JEAN: Okay, that's it. If you got funnier
stuff?
>> KAREN: I have. I have funny stuff. I think
the most consistently funny thing is the non-binary
group.
>> JEAN: Oh, yes. For sure, for sure.
>> KAREN: Because none of their problems --they
always have problems, they're all self-inflicted,
[laugh] they are all problems that can be
fixed with a small change of mindset, and
they just are, like, so upset about the most
minor things.
>> JEAN: Yeah, the problems are definitely
presented with the same level of drama as
other trans groups present their problems,
but yeah these ones are far more internalized
issues. Not ever really referring to particularly--
I mean they sort of try to frame them like
they're like structural or environmental issues,
but they're really not. Yeah, they're really,
really not.
>> KAREN: And they cannot explain, like if
somebody comes in and they're like" I don't
really understand? What is a gender identity?
What does it mean to be non-binary?" they
can't explain it, they have no idea. So they're
really upset about this thing that they're
sure of that they do not know anything about.
>> JEAN: Yeah for sure. The non-binary groups
are the ones where I've looked most for the
definition
of what exactly it is you mean by gender or
"what does it mean to be non-binary?" and
how does that differ from being normal, or
like from being anyone else. And there's never
a coherent explanation of that.
>> KAREN: All right. So this post in the non-binary
group is there's a photo attached, but since
the way that you read it is you read the post
and then you see the photo since it's always
at the bottom, I'll just read the post, and
I'll describe the photo. So "they" say "Being
reminded of being a man in the shopping market
by cashiers" --and then there's quotes, like
this is what the cashiers are saying-- "have
the man carry the groceries", "typical that
the man isn't helping with packing", dot dot
dot. I get anxiety from being gendered like
that, but I'm totally comfortable with he/him.
Anyone else have this issue?" Below it's just
a photo of a guy. It's like a hipster guy
with, like, short hair, glasses, like not
very big but, you know, gauged ears. His only--
he's non-binary because he doesn't want to
be associated with shit talking about men.
>> JEAN: Yeah, and I would see that a lot.
A lot. For the non-binary men, by and large,
that seems to be their biggest complaint.
They don't want to be associated with conversations
about problematic patterns of behavior exhibited
by male people.
>> KAREN: Right, clearly instead of "not all
men" its "But, I'm not a man."
>> JEAN: " I'm not, yeah, I'm not a man. I'm
literally not a man so ." I like it, as well,
that he's getting called out but not doing
this thing. And that his issue is not like
and that he doesn't even say maybe I should
help out with packing the groceries. His issue
is "I'm not a man."
>> KAREN: And then the all-time funniest one
which we copypasta'd onto a post was a rant
by…yeah, okay I guess it is female…
>> JEAN: For sure, for sure
>> KAREN: and you know this one's particularly
funny but it's actually pretty typical, just
like the being upset--
>> JEAN: About something that's like totally
benign, but this one is particularly funny
because of the inherent privilege behind the
problem.
>> KAREN: Yeah, they said "quite frankly I'm
sick of trying to fight to be recognized as
non-binary at this point. The bank knows I
use the prefix 'Mx.'All my documents submitted
to them use Mx." (which is like Mx, I think
it's pronounced mix, I don't know) "they even
have me down as Mx. and my bank card is Mx.
and all the documentation so far had come
with the prefix Mx. And then the mortgage
offer comes through and it's Ms! The final
offer, and it's MS! And now I can't kick up
a fuss as it could delay our house buying,
but quite frankly I'm defeated so sick of
fighting to be recognized as who I fucking
am."
>> BOTH: [laugh]
>> JEAN: That's the saddest thing I've ever
heard. [laughter intensifies] And so we posted
that with a meme-- who's the little guy in
the meme? You know who he is, who's the guy
in the meme.
>> KAREN: I don't know who he is.
>> JEAN: You know who he is, he's the cartoon
guy!
>> KAREN: It's just a kid, what do you mean?
We posted a photo of a kid and it looks like
there's a boot on his face and then you zoom
out--
>> JEAN: [laughing] Oh yeah!
>> KAREN: --his hand is in the boot, he's
got it on his own face.
>> JEAN: I was confusing it with the "no personality"
one.
>> KAREN: Oh the Caillou one! [laughter] No,
this one was the boot.
>> JEAN: Renewed appreciation for that meme,
actually. [laughter]
>> KAREN: I almost want to go through and
look for more. I mean that's another-- like
it doesn't come up in my feed a lot.
>> JEAN: No.
>> KAREN: I actually think that's one that
we're in just as ourselves.
>> JEAN: I mean, yeah I'm in as myself, yeah.
>> KAREN: And I just haven't been on Facebook
lately, but it was pretty consistently like,
>> JEAN: Yeah, like that was a fairly typical
kind of problem that would occur in those
non-binary groups. That one just really stood
out because of…
>> KAREN: The bank
>> JEAN: The bank, buying a house, like the
level of privilege that somebody must have
to buy a house and still be claiming structural
oppression is gold, it's just gold. Oh, by
the way, the Mx. thing-- so I was reading
in (I mean this is in an Australian group,
an Australian TERF
group) talking about that particular pronoun,
and they said it's pronounced like in the
same way that a New Zealander would pronounce
'mix'so 'mux', yeah 'mux.'
>> KAREN: [trying to imitate Jean's version
of a New Zealander] Mucks.
[laughter]
>> JEAN: So read it again now, pronounce it
properly.
>> KAREN: Alright, fine. [laughter]
>> JEAN: Yeah incredibly funny and I just
got like a renewed pleasure from that. I just
lived it again. It was really good I have
another really funny one that got me quite
lit. One of the
funniest best surprises that I found in transbook
was the group that is almost entirely about
our memes.
>> KAREN: [laughing] Oh yeah! I totally forgot
about that.
>> JEAN: And I was just looking through it
now (before) and it's all Emma's memes now.
Which is sad like, we're gone, but…yeah,
it's okay, it's okay.
>> KAREN: We'll come back.
>> JEAN: Yeah, one day, don't worry about
it. Oh okay, here's your restrooms one.
>> KAREN: Yeah, that's one of my favorites.
It didn't get a lot of likes.
>> JEAN: It's really busy.
>> KAREN: I can totally understand why, I
totally get it, I just still-- it's like I
have such an attachment to it. The little
guy in the corner, "I feel so valid." [laughter]
It cracks me up, nobody really liked it.
>> JEAN: No, it's great, pure science fiction.
Like yeah, I think it was like visually great.
In fact so, this group is called "So this
is the TERF's fabled graphic design ability"
and in terms of graphic design that meme is
a success, I think.
>> KAREN: That's what I think, but they hated
it.
>> JEAN: It didn't get the worst amount.
>> KAREN: But wasn't the comments on it like
about how ugly it-- specifically about the
graphic design?
>> JEAN: No, not at all. So there's comments,
the first one is by a Phoenix Grey. "Apart
from the fact that we're the ones just saying
just have unisex toilets xD" --so that's like
hardcore smiley face--"at least we get luxury
and privacy unlike the genital inspection
TERFs want in their toilets." [laughter] So
true.
>> KAREN: Oh yeah.
>> JEAN: Couldn't agree more.
>>KAREN: That group and the other one, "Transphobia
Ruins Every Group" has some of my favorite
explanations of what TERFs think.
>> JEAN: Oh, yeah totally. And then Rod says
"except that I've always advocated for single
occupancy fully accessible toilets for everyone,
that way nobody has to worry about creepers."
And then somebody said "this bad boy looks
like it's in space, space genders!" ??? I
mean that's a graphic design.
>> KAREN: I I liked it, it's still one of
my favorites. and yeah, it's my baby but I
know it's an ugly baby, but I still--
>> JEAN: That's okay, that's okay. So do you
know your triangles here?
>> KAREN: Oh yeah, like what is a woman? Different
definitions of woman, pick two, and one is--well
you have it in front of you.
>> JEAN: I do, yeah. So one of them is 'includes
males,'one of them is 'logical/non circular;
and one of them is 'not reliant on stereotypes.'
So your definition of women can only include
two, and TERFs obviously like the one that
doesn't include males.
>> KAREN: Sorry. [laughter]
>> JEAN: So the opening post: "they are really
reaching at this point. I could have solved
this with a pencil lodged in my cornea." I
don't know what they think needs to be solved…could
solve this? Oh like the problem of looking
at it? ???
>> KAREN: Maybe solving how to pick three?
Is that what they mean?
>> JEAN: Oh, solving how to pick two? Yeah
I don't know.
>> KAREN: Solving how to have all three. Because
they think that somehow, because they'll just
jump from one argument to the other, they
think that somehow they've covered the whole
triangle. And that like it's "not reliant
on stereotypes" and "men (or you know, male,
AMAB people) can be women because they ARE
women" or whatever and they just ignore the
circular reasoning thing, by just like pure
force. [laughter]
>> JEAN: "Don't engage with that part of it,
please." [laughter]
>> KAREN: Yeah but then they're like, "we
have all three."
>> JEAN: Isn't person with a feminine brain
and person who identifies as a woman the same
fucking thing? Last time I checked identity
comes from the brain, it's not fucking bestowed
over you by God. What? Okay.
>> KAREN: Okay, yeah, sure all right, female
brains, pink brains.
>> JEAN: TERFs think that trans men are women,
so yeah this is obviously faulty reasoning.
I don't know, yeah, like statement followed
by like, bring it home with a hard conclusion
and that's all you ever need in a debate,
I think. I've learned a lot. Obviously the
group cover photo is one of our memes which
is like…such an honor.
>> KAREN: It's not anymore though, right?
it's just one of… well it's an iteration
of our meme that we didn't make.
>> JEAN: Yeah that's right, close enough.
>> KAREN: It used to be ours but maybe they
didn't like being reminded that women don't
have penises. [laughter]
>> JEAN: That's annoying to know. [laughter]
>> KAREN: That group was great, finding it
was such a blessing.
>> JEAN: Yeah it was really just like, when
I found it-- the name: "So this is the TERFs
fabled graphic design ability." I mean I didn't
know that was a stereotype about us, so thank
you. I personally don't have any graphic design
ability.
>> KAREN: I don't think that, I think the
stereotype should probably be the opposite.
I think that we are some of the best.
>> JEAN: Like you and I are some of the best
memers?
>> KAREN: Yeah, and just with what the output
looks, like especially in…like I don't even
want to name names, I don't wanna be bitchy,
but like some of the groups, like meme pages
that are run by older women have some you
know really interesting-- like just on graphic
design...
>> JEAN: Yeah there's some interesting choices
that are being made, yeah I don't even know
how they make them.
>> KAREN: It's like they had to time travel.
[laughing]
>> JEAN: They've posted…I'm back to December,
so they've got that when you commit to Dworking
it after years of using porn" then someone
says "god I hate this puritanical bullshit,
we've had not safe for work content since
cave people." [laughing] What kind of not
safe for work stuff do you think that cave
people hid when their boss walked by?
>> KAREN: "Don't take this out hunting." [laughter]
>> JEAN: And then they said "wait what is
dworking, the radfem version of no nap? Yeah
ok fine, I got it, really if they don't want
to fap no one's forcing them. What's radical
about denying oneself pleasure?"
>> KAREN: They don't get it.
>> JEAN: Yeah, they don't get it.
>> KAREN: Ok so we are on to weirdest moments,
or maybe weirdest stuff, yeah maybe not moments.
But weirdest stuff. So what have you got?
>> JEAN: I think probably for viewing weird
in like disturbing, the thing that is really
weird is the almost blanket non-challenging
of weird fetishes.
>> KAREN: Yes, do you have particular examples
that you could share because there are--that
is a real truth.
>> JEAN: I have one that links into the next
one, but no, I don't. Can you think of one?
>> KAREN: There's definitely a lot of like,
I don't know if you could say that it's…well,
yeah it's like autogynephilia, but where they
kind of talk about how much they pass, how
much everybody thinks they're a woman. And
you're like there's no way. We just had one
of those just before we started recording,
but there was the one where the guy was like
"I have three husbands, all trans men, and
I think they're so manly but people tell me
they're not manly, but people believe that
I'm a woman a hundred percent." And it's just
like this crazy nonsense and I feel like I
must have gone crazy because when I shared
that screenshot, people were like "I don't
understand this" and I'm like I understood
it right away so maybe I've been doing this
too long. [laughter] Like it's crazy but I
understood what they meant.
>> JEAN: You understood what they meant in
that they are trying to talk about having
three super manly husbands and that in and
of itself is a reflection of how feminine
and lovely
they are.
>> KAREN: Exactly. Some of the stuff is kind
of hard to speak on, because you know it's
just pictures. There's just so many goddamn
pictures of like, fishnets.
>> JEAN: Yeah, the legs and the fishnets and
the shoes. And it's always um, I mean I guess
those ones tend to be posted in the older
trans women groups, though and they're all
autogynephiles. So I can sort of see why they're
not challenging it because it's--
>> KAREN: Yeah, why would they?
>> JEAN: Yeah, it'd massively throwing stones
in their glass houses, but it's really obvious
fetishy stuff. But it's the fetishy stuff
that occurs in the groups with the younger
ones where they are calling one another out
for like, minor social justice faux pas, or
language like not having a space between "trans"
and "woman"
>> KAREN: Right.
>> JEAN: Yeah to me, yeah it's just a sign--
I mean if that's if that's the stuff that
you're committing your energy to becoming
frustrated and upset about, you're not particularly
oppressed.
>> KAREN: No. One of the things that I have
on my list of things that were weird and I
guess I should have probably put this under
surprising, but when a trans man talks about
being nervous about using the men's room the
advice is like "oh it's fine in there," "nobody
looks at anybody," and like "nobody cares
about anything in there." But it's like…just
so….another thing I guess I'd also should
have put in surprise as nobody ever talks
about bad bathroom experiences, or people
they know who have killed themselves. Given
the narrative, you would expect that to come
up a lot.
>> JEAN: Okay, I have seen it in some of the
more political trans groups, but it's always
on the topic of TERFs, and it's always like
"I have known trans women who have been driven
to suicide by TERFs." That is the only time
I've ever seen it. I have never seen people
reflecting quietly or meaningfully in a non-defensive
context about their friends.
>> KAREN: Right, like "oh we're missing so-and-so,
our member, they left us. Please reach out
to people--"
>> JEAN: Oh yeah, that's true, you make a
really good point. Like I'm in some groups
about like online games and stuff, and they
have posts commemorating people that have
died and been lost. And I've never seen it--
you're right, I've never seen one in all of
these trans groups I've never seen commemorating
a member that passed away.
>> KAREN: No, no, I've only seen it, OK, I
saw it once in Pretty TS so in the black homosexual
transsexuals group, they had a member who
either killed themselves or was murdered.
And then I saw one time when I was like searching
for something else I saw like one really really
old post in transgender support circle from
like years ago and it didn't get that much
attention if I recall correctly. So yeah,
I found that really surprising to the point
of being weird.
>> JEAN: Yeah that's true.
>> KAREN: That’s why it's on my weird list.
>> JEAN: Yeah well it's counter to the narrative
isn't it?
>> KAREN: Completely. Another thing that I
was thinking about was in terms of the gender
or the non-binary pride group or whatever,
that you see a lot of AFABs who are non-binary
but they want to get top surgery. You don't
see a lot of AMABs who want to get breast
implants.
>> JEAN: Good point, good point, yep that's
very true. When you say you don't see a lot,
I've never seen like one.
>> KAREN: Oh yeah, I haven't seen any.
>> JEAN: And I've seen the female non-binaries
who like micro dose on testosterone.
>> KAREN: Right.
>> JEAN: Or use testosterone despite not identifying
as male, which is fine. But I've never seen
a male non-binary use oestrogen or talk about
it, I mean maybe they do but I've certainly
never seen them discuss it.
>> KAREN: Yeah, I've only seen a person that
I actually know discuss it. The only other
thing that I had, and I guess yeah these are
all like, I guess they're not that weird,
they're surprising, but how easy the security
questions are to get into these groups.
>> JEAN: [laughs] Yeah, really easy.
>> KAREN: They're like always the same. The
first question is "are trans women women?".
>> JEAN: Mm-hmm.
>> KAREN: That's easy.
>> JEAN: Yes.
>> KAREN: It's like "how many genders are
there?" so just I say as many as there are
people on the planet and then like sometimes
we'll be like so like eight billion. [laughs].
>> JEAN: And the third question is something
about the rules maybe? Or how do you identify
if it's a specific group?
>> KAREN: Right right right yeah, exactly,
how do you identify or it'll be, like, you
have to promise not to report anything. They're
really easy to get into.
>> JEAN: Not like TERF groups.
>> KAREN: [laughs] No, I can’t get into
TERF groups. No, I mean I can now that I have
enough friends, like I don't even have to
answer the questions because of usually somebody
I know but before I'd be like, oh man I gotta
write these fuckin essays. [laughs].
>> JEAN: Essays, yeah, for sure.
>> KAREN: "How did the patriarchy begin?"
"Six thousand years ago..." [laughs].
>> JEAN: Yeah they're really hard to get into.
Yeah, you know, "what's your definition of
feminism?" and you’re like, far out, I'm
gonna get that spot on.
>> KAREN: I know, like should I keep like
a Word document and save these?
>> JEAN: All right, more weird stuff, go!
>> KAREN: I have no more weird stuff that
I can think of or that I wrote down, do you
have weird stuff?
>> JEAN: Ooh, the lack of challenging the
weird fetishes but flowing in from that one,
there are people who are very clearly, you
know, with like chronic acute mental illness
or intellectual cognitive disability who I
feel like the care and consideration for these
people being in the groups is not there whatsoever.
>> KAREN: No. And like sometimes you'll see
posts that are like "I feel sad today, I feel
so dysphoric" and like a selfie that you know
they feel really good about and there'll be
like so many likes and like "oh you're so
hot girl" and then like somebody else will
post "I don't think I can take it anymore,
I can't do this" and there'll be like one
person who's like "keep your head up" like,
nobody, they're like totally ignored.
>> JEAN: Yep, yeah.
>> KAREN: ...when people like actually call
out for help.
>> JEAN: Yep, extremely superficial in the
nature of the group, for sure but there are
definitely, particularly with the older ones,
I think, oh there's some young ones who I
would say are, you know, the kind of moderate
spectrum of intellectual disability where
they are clearly not particularly functional
at all operating in these groups and I do
wonder. I don't know, man, they’re just
such candidates for predatory behaviour but
nobody seems to kind of acknowledge that they're
rolling in the groups. Which feeds into the
next one which is we ended up in a couple
of group chats which are all pretty much …
>> KAREN: You spent more time in them than
I did. Like reading them, my general impression
was that nobody really talks to each other.
>> JEAN: And that was my impression of it
as well. That there was just a bunch of people
just talking to themselves, that at a glance
simulated a conversation [laughs] but it wasn't
my experience of what a meaningful conversation
is, ie that it's like a two-way sharing of
information. And there were a couple of examples
that I can recall that really stood out. So
there was one trans woman talking about how
one of their, I assume online, friends has
agreed to surrogate for them and banging on
and on about this, and their partner, also
a trans woman, an adult baby trans woman,
was in the group as well. So this first character,
Christina, is super-excited because of this
fantasy that their online friend is going
to surrogate for them so they can be parents.
Just horrific anyway, but there's one trans
man that's responding with congratulations
and Christina keeps tagging their partner,
Mikayla, in this chat. And Mikayla’s contribution
to the conversation was to talk about the
new breast forms that they purchased, and
they're really excited about receiving, and
they both continued to have this conversation
but both talking about their thing that they
were interested in, and not remotely engaged
with what the other was saying whatsoever.
And on a few occasions there would be somebody
who would, you know there are people who were
in there who were very lonely, like really
obviously really lonely, and kind of reaching
out and because it was so superficial and
not a meaningful conversation they would get
burnt because nobody was responding to their
cries for help and so there would be the occasional
tantrum that nobody ever responds to them.
But it's I think it's like they didn't realize
that nobody was responding to anybody.
>> KAREN: I mean yeah and there was also pretty
obvious sex roles in there, where like trans
women…
>> JEAN: It was always trans men who were
the ones who were like affirming and going
"hey that's so great Christina, really happy
for you". Consistently, yep.
>> KAREN: Yes. And then the trans women, like,
when it was their turn were just like nowhere
to be found.
>> JEAN: [laughs]. Not interested in performing
emotional labour for anybody else. A little
bit like … um … men!
>> KAREN: Yeah, do we have any more weird
stuff?
>> JEAN: I'm out of weird stuff
>> KAREN: I'm out of weird stuff too which
means we have to go to sad stuff and I was
originally thinking like, oh, if we do sad
at the end like we should do funny at the
end but we didn't really go into these groups
just to laugh at people.
>> JEAN: Nope.
>> KAREN: We were trying to get a full, you
know, we're just like cyber anthropologists
>> JEAN: sure.
>> KAREN: trying to find out what this community is all about. And often I feel the saddest
for people who aren't trans.
>> JEAN: Yeah, OK.
>> KAREN: And most of the things that I have
written down or there's there's a trans kid,
like a five-year-old, whose mom posts pictures
of him all the time, "trans girl", and he
does not look stoked.
>> JEAN: Yeah, I know the one you're talking
about. He looks completely miserable in all
of those photos, dressed up like a little
princess.
>> KAREN: Yes, and everyone's like "she's
beautiful", "oh, you're such a great mom",
"you're so wonderful", "I wish my mom was
like you" and it makes me really sick to my
stomach.
>> JEAN: Yeah, yeah. And the kid is what,
four or five?.
>> KAREN: Yeah, really young.
>> JEAN: Mmm-hmm. Can you remember what the
mum said wwere the indicators that this is
definitely a trans child?
>> KAREN: Yeah, I don't remember at all. I
mean, I know that there's a couple of them.
>> JEAN: Mm-hmm, mums, yeah.
>> KAREN: One of the kids looks a little bit
more on board, but the mom seems like she
has a bunch of like mystery diseases and stuff.
>> JEAN: Oh yeah yeah yeah, the one where
the mum posts pictures of her in the hospital
and yeah, like the chronic unlabelled illness.
Ugh, oh god, it's all, just reeks of Munchhausen’s,
it’s so disturbing.
>> KAREN: What is your sad things, give me
one.
>> JEAN: I have come away with similar results.
Yep, in that I feel sad for the people that
aren't trans so for me, the saddest ones were
the trans spouse support groups.
>> KAREN: Oh my god.
>> JEAN: Really depressing, consistently depressing.
Like they really vary, some of them make me
a bit less sad than others. Like some of them
are a bit more predictable like you know there's
like a gay guy that's posting that his partner
of 20 years has just said that he's a woman
now and that he's really concerned about,
you know, his identity as a gay man and as
a gay couple and that's something he really
fought for and that's kind of sad.
>> KAREN: Yeah, but it's not the same. It's
not feminist sad.
>> JEAN: No, it’s not feminist sad. Yeah,
that's exactly right, that's just distress,
marital distress sad, but the ones that really
get me are these women who are quite clearly
attempting to cater to an autogynephile and
be as supportive and understanding as they
possibly can be and I've certainly noticed
some patterns. They all really want to be
supportive, not all of them but a lot of them
really want to be supportive, and they enjoy
the phase where it's dressing up. Like they
seem to take pride in, like you know if it
was Christmas and they brought them some makeup
and some bras. Like it only bothers me that
they don't kind of question.
>> KAREN: Yeah.
>> JEAN: Sometimes they do question like what
actually is this got to do with being a woman
but this seems to be the phase of it that
they kind of enjoy the most and they take
pictures of them and post pictures of them,
and they’re like "this my wife, isn't she
so beautiful" and like she's not, you know,
she just looks like a guy in some makeup.
Quite often in a very submissive pose on the
couch and then you know they're kind of fishing
for compliments so they can show the husband
this and, you know, their relationship is
really good for that night because they did
a good thing and so the female socialization
of trying to reduce tension. But then as the
time progresses is when I think the really
sad stuff comes up and you can see that these
women are having these moments where they
know that something's not right and they can't
really put their finger on what it is. So
there was one which was the other day posted
by, I mean, this woman looks pretty average
in in most ways and she's posted before that
the husband is trans and doesn't work and
doesn't feel able to get work because he's
trans and talks about how dysphoric he is
all the time but is really unwilling to engage
in, you know, the necessary medical steps
that you have to go through to transition,
which in America to my understanding are not
particularly stringent.
>> KAREN: Er, no.
>> JEAN: Yeah, in like a private health care
system it just didn't, from all accounts it
seems quite straightforward, but really unwilling
to even go through the process of that, despite
the fact that his wife is helping him. But
she made this post "does anyone else have
MTF spouse that is so dysphoric that they
want to go on birth control to, quote unquote,
have the full experience of being a woman?
I know nothing is normal about dysphoria and
not everyone has the same experience but I
feel like wanting to be on birth control to
feel like a woman is a bit out there. Maybe
I'm wrong." You're not wrong.
>> KAREN: Yeah, they're like, they're so close
but they're just like "oh, there must be something
wrong with me, maybe."
>> JEAN: Definitely, and that's a lot of what
these groups, like, that's a lot of what this
is, for sure.
>> KAREN: In all of the groups there's like
trans people who will kind of bully people
back into …
>> JEAN: Submission?
>> KAREN: Yeah, submission. There is a variety,
there are some where you can get away with
more complaining about stuff. What makes me
really sad is that I've noticed over the time
that we've been doing this how many of the
women just had children.
>> JEAN: Yes! Or were pregnant.
>> KAREN: Yeah, or pregnant. And then the
husband comes out as trans, like he wasn't
getting enough attention or something.
>> JEAN: Yep, totally. And I raised this in
one of the parent groups once, I just said
"hey, I've just noticed that like so many
of these guys seem to be coming out when the
women are pregnant or have just had young
kids" and the amount of justification and
defending that I got in response is that,
you know, it's a time of the big life change,
and you know that's maybe when they realize
themselves, like you know realize who they
were. But you know, like DV (domestic violence)
also most commonly starts when the woman is
pregnant, and it's an attention and focus
thing, like that's when those kinds of really
jealous and weird behaviors start to come
up, and I'm more inclined to put it down to
that than I am to, you know, a life adjustment
thing where they suddenly realize that, you
know, they found their true selves not as
a father but as a woman.
>> KAREN: In these spouse groups there really
is so much repetition of like the same story.
>> JEAN: Over and over. And it doesn't actually
get any less sad. I found another one. So
this is the other one, there are a few where
the partner is like gender fluid, which I
assume just means they're a crossdresser.
When they sort of explain it, but that seems
to be what it is but now they've got a woke
label on enjoying a fetish, you know like
I think you know women have been putting up
with cross-dressing partners for a long time
and there's not really - I'm in two minds
about cross-dressing, you know, like I don't
really like the fetishization of like women's
stereotypes but I don't care about men in
dresses.
>> KAREN: Right.
>> JEAN: But these are also the sad ones where
they've just kind of drunk the kool-aid and
then they're not you know then not into it.
>> JEAN: So the post is "I'm struggling it's
been over a year since my spouse came out
as bigender. I thought I was doing okay until
we hit the year mark and I realized I'm not
where I thought I'd be. The constant pronoun
changes, constant emotion changes, the selfishness.
It's so hard when I feel alone in home educating
my daughter, but I also have to be wary of
their well-being even if it's not reciprocated.
I thought I'd be okay by now but I'm still
so sad. Just needed to get this out among
people who may understand. Even my local LGBT
group has no experience of bigender."
>> KAREN: Right that's the problem.
>> JEAN: Yeah that's the problem. It's that
bigender is such a unique gender that you
can't seek support for it.
>> KAREN: Those are just so sad.
>> JEAN: Really sad and occasionally they
do end in divorce. You know, but quite often
they're just...
>> KAREN: I have a feeling that the women
disappear from the group
>> JEAN: Yeah, totally.
>> KAREN: as opposed to announcing their divorce.
>> JEAN: Yeah there's a couple where they
announce that but yeah I think more often
than not they probably just disappear.
>> KAREN: Because I do think that there's
a figure like 70% or something of marriages
where one partner transitions end up in divorce
after like a few years.
>> JEAN: Yep definitely. Even to be honest
like these groups they don't attract a lot
of really positive commentary. Like the positive
commentary is really limited again to the
superficial stuff. Like they will post a picture
of their spouse looking particularly good
after a makeover they've done on them.
>> KAREN: Mm-hmm.
>> JEAN: And that is pretty much all the positive
dialogue. There is a lot of talk about wanting
the partner wanting to move to open relationships
as well.
>> KAREN: And a lot of talk about like, "I
don't know if I feel comfortable calling myself
a lesbian, but SHE insists that I do."
>> JEAN: Yes definitely yeah. "I'm not really
comfortable saying that I'm in a lesbian relationship."
But I guess there was the flip side I did
see one the other day where somebody was posting
rainbow-like ear gauges that
they had purchased because now they're in
a lesbian relationship.
>> KAREN: Yeah some people are excited
>> JEAN: Yeah
>> KAREN: about the whole project of having
like a trans wife or kid. It's like something
that you can put your
>> JEAN: A little project
>> KAREN: feminine energy. Yeah exactly.
>> JEAN: Yeah, women love a fixer-upper.
>> KAREN: Uh, ya. [laughs]
>> JEAN: Yep.
>> KAREN: So sad now. Do you have any other
sad stuff?
>> JEAN: In the support groups there is, I
guess, the flipside of these trans spouse
support groups is watching how it unfolds
in the other group; in the other side watching,
"I'm about to come out to my spouse." And
quite often you know you can track it over
a year and a half or however long the group's
been up. And so they'll talk about wanting
to come out to their spouse, coming out to
their spouse, the arguments, divorce and then
referring to her as "my crazy bitch ex-wife."
>> KAREN: Yeah.
>> JEAN: And there was another one which this
is one of the guys who post selfies in every
single group, and it's always from this exact
same like directly above angle
>> KAREN: I know exactly who you're talking
about.
>> JEAN: Yeah. And he would post screenshots
of his conversation with his ex-wife, and
the ex-wife was talking about that him showing
up dressed as a woman made the little child
uncomfortable. I think she's like a three-year-old
girl very young.
>> KAREN: Yeah.
>> JEAN: And this guy would just post about
how the ex-wife is a "bitch," and that "three-year-old
doesn't care at all," and in these text message
conversations, like the ex-wife obviously
looks a bit it seems a bit angry but she seems
incredibly reasonable to me and
>> KAREN: Right.
>> JEAN: the trans woman's responses are always
like, "you're just mad because I showed up
dressed better than you bitch." And
>> KAREN: Oh, right exactly.
>> JEAN: and the ex-wife will respond like,
"I don't care that you're wearing dresses
and that kind of thing. It's your behavior
that is making me really concerned to have
you around the kid."
>> KAREN: [laughs]
>> JEAN: And again, there will only be about
three or four comments but yeah talking about
how like, "obviously the kids don't care,"
and that she's really you know the trans woman
is, "really beautiful and valid." But thinking
about that one,
>> KAREN: Mm hmm, yeah, I feel bad for some
of the parents. Like speaking of screenshots,
a lot of times there are parents who just
seem like assholes but I wonder how long they've
had to go through this shit with their kids.
And that's another thing is like so many people
are like convinced that it's just their parents
don't accept that they're trans, but they
seem so mental and it's hard for me to believe
that they don't already have all kinds of
family conflict.
>> JEAN: Yeah, totally. I would wonder what
the instance is that a close-knit supportive
family outright rejects their child for coming
out as trans, how often that happens. But
I also question how often otherwise super-functional
people come out as trans.
>> KAREN: Right.
>> JEAN: I don't have anything to offer for
this but I think you're right about ending
on a sad thing, but maybe is there any like
strengths? [laughs]
>> BOTH: [laugh]
>> KAREN: Well I mean I guess like they are
very affirming. I don't know if that's actually
healthy for people, but the only way that
>> JEAN: Really positive affirming atmosphere
unless you don't put a space between "trans"
and "woman."
>> KAREN: Right yeah, like I was going to
say, like if you have a differing opinion
about something you are probably going to
feel really bad, but if you just want to post
a selfie
>> JEAN: Mm hmm.
>> KAREN: If somebody brings up, like one
person said you know, "I'm blind I'm like
legally blind, and I can't see," and then
pretty much overnight everybody started describing
all of their photos and stuff.
>> JEAN: Yep.
>> KAREN: And I think that the content warnings
and the descriptions of images will be very
useful for machine learning and our eventual
robot overlords
>> JEAN: Yep.
>> KAREN: will thank them for their contribution.
>> JEAN: It's still pretty snarky honestly
>> KAREN: [laughs] OK
>> JEAN: on the strengths.
>> KAREN: [laughs] What do you have?
>> JEAN: Um. I don't have any.
>> BOTH: [laugh heartily]
>> KAREN: You can't bitch at me for being
snarky and you can't even name one.
>> BOTH: [laugh heartily]
>> JEAN: At least I'm authentic.
>> KAREN: Um you know what though, actually
I do have something, it's still snarky, I
suppose, but it did kind of let me self-reflect
on if there were certain arguments that they
were making on the basis of like this oppressor-oppressed
relationship that made me kind of reflect
like, "am I trying to make similar arguments
in the name of feminism and do they hold up
where are they similarly flimsy, and do I
need to approach
something from a different angle?" So I mean
it I guess that's a positive thing for me.
It's not positive for them. Yeah I mean, I
suppose, you know, everything's just snarky.
Like I mean, it gave us a lot of laughs over
the last six months.
>> JEAN: Yeah it did give us a lot of laughs.
A lot of good screenshots, a lot of inspiration,
but yeah and I mean I'm willing to acknowledge
my huge bias for sure
>> KAREN: Oh yeah.
>> JEAN: but I found it really difficult to
find anything particularly inspiring or comforting
really in these groups at all. Like all of
the stuff, all of the positive feedback was
really superficial and appearance focused,
which I'm kind of fundamentally at odds with
anyway, and all of the kind of critical and
negative feedback in the groups is really
like emotive and like not very well thought
out. I don't find it particularly intriguing.
>> KAREN: No and then you also are like, "so
these are the people who will go into the
women's shelters,"
>> JEAN: Yeah, yeah. [laughs]
>> KAREN: and that's concerning.
>> JEAN: Yeah I mean back in that when I thought
I might find the nice normal trans people
just going about their lives being super normal,
I didn't encounter any, many many, trans women
that I would be super comfortable sharing
like an intimate space with. Intimate kind
of, semi-public space with.
>> KAREN: Maybe, maybe, though the ones from
the "For Pretty TS Only" [laughs] would be
like
>> JEAN: Yeah.
>> KAREN: the only ones that I would be like
comfortable with, I guess. Maybe part of that
is because they are not attracted to women.
>> JEAN: Yeah look I can definitely admit
that the homosexual-transsexual I find
significantly less threatening
>> KAREN: And don't think they're any more
women than any
other
>> JEAN: Yeah
>> KAREN: man who that thinks they're, yeah
a woman
>> JEAN: Not at all.
>> KAREN: but in terms of space sharing, yeah,
yes way less way threatening. And I did actually
kind of grow, you know we talked about Ethiopia.
Like I did grow to really like some of those
people.
>> JEAN: Yep totally.
>> KAREN: And to like that group, like I really,
and I think that like in some ways I came
full circle in a sense because like initially
my impression of what a transgender person
was, was basically that. And so when people
were talking about like you know when it TERFs
first came on my radar I'm like, "what's your
fucking problem," like "they're just, they're
really not that threatening." And then I saw
how rare they are, that type of trans person,
the one that like you're supposed to think
is all trans people, trans women.
>> JEAN: And then a good friend of yours revealed
themselves to be a TERF. [laughs]
>> KAREN: [laughs] Exactly. And then she visited
me and I said something like
>> JEAN: [laughs]
>> KAREN: "I'm okay with the bathrooms, but
you know the showers are a little weird."
>> BOTH: [laugh heartily]
>> KAREN: And look at us now.
>> JEAN: Yeah.
>> KAREN: But yeah so I found, like, yeah,
okay, actually the trans people that
I thought were all trans people are the trans
people that I do like. I got I mean I like
some of our friends who are you know admitted
autogynephiles
>> JEAN: Yeah.
>> KAREN: but they, you know, also are TERFs.
>> JEAN: Yeah, look I have a pretty open mind
about weird sex stuff. Like, I don't
mind a bit of weird sex stuff myself
>> BOTH: [laugh]
>> JEAN: so I certainly don't have an issue
with other people engaging in weird sex stuff
but there needs to be that kind of really
authentic analysis of what informs that weird
sex stuff, not the total denial that what
you're doing is very public weird sex stuff
that I didn't tell you that I wanted to participate
in. [laughs] That's where I draw the line.
>> KAREN: Yes exactly those boundaries are
important.
>> JEAN: Yep.
>> KAREN: Alright, so do you have any last
things to discuss, or things that you noticed,
or final thoughts.
>> JEAN: No.
>> KAREN: You know what? We forgot about transmen.
Everyone forgets about transmen.
>> JEAN: Did we forget about trans men?
>> KAREN: I don't. We didn't really talk about
transmen that much, unless they were sort
of incidental to a story that was mostly about
how funny transwomen are.
>> JEAN: Yeah.
>> KAREN: I think trans men do make me a little
bit sad.
>> JEAN: Yeah, look, I think one of the reasons
we don't talk about much transmen much is
because they don't really feature very heavily
in these groups. In fact, the trans-spouse
groups, the ones where there is actual positive
dialogue about the relationship, I should
say that it's always when the partner is a
transman
>> KAREN: Right
>> JEAN: and like a bisexual woman and it
just doesn't change the relationship too much
you know.
>> KAREN: Right.
>. JEAN: And things seem to be okay and they're
really supportive of their transman partner.
I'm in a group that is like, "FTM Surgery"
and that's a bummer.
>> KAREN: Oof.
>> JEAN: Horrific. Like, car crash level recoveries.
>> KAREN: Oooh. There is one ridiculous trans
man that I can think of; that "gay man" they
think, and they've posted a few things of
like gay men kind of telling them off on like
Tinder or Grindr or on like Discords; basically
giving them the lesbian, the TERF treatment.
>> JEAN: What do you mean, sorry?
>> KAREN: You know, like, it seems like in
these groups like if a lesbians like, "I'm
not interested in penis,"
>> JEAN: Yeah.
>> KAEN: people are like, "whoa."
>> JEAN: "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. That's dangerously
TERFy territory."
>> KAREN: But it does seem like in these all
gay groups
>> JEAN: Oh yeah the ones who were talking
about in Grindr groups, and they get told
to piss off.
>> KAREN: Yeah, exactly, and well they'll
try the same shit that the transwomen try
on lesbians and the gay men are just like
bye. [laughs]
>> JEAN: Yep, yeah. They're really not into
it.
>> KAREN: Alright, we talked about transmen.
>> JEAN: Yeah, done.
>> KAREN: I'll cut that in somewhere maybe.
>> JEAN: [laughs] Ok
>> KAREN: I have one last note on my list,
but I don't know where I would fit it in.
>> JEAN: Yeah.
>> KAREN: but it was "no cis apology."
>> JEAN: [laughs] Yeah.
>> KAREN: Anybody who's like, like you can't,
it's one of the things that kind of keeps
people from like growing in these groups is
that part of that is going like, "hey you
know, people have different opinions and cis
people aren't that bad." And somebody will
just come and be like, "no cis apology,"
>> JEAN: [laughs] Yeah.
>> KAREN: and just kick them from the group.
>> KAREN & JEAN: [laughs heartily]
>> JEAN: Yeah, there's a real discouragement
of personal growth in these groups, for sure,
>> KAREN: Yeah
>> JEAN: outside of the approved narratives,
which are fairly changing as well. Like, really
hard to keep up with. I can see why the autogynephiles
largely keep to themselves in like the older
transwomen groups where they can just post
their stocking selfies and not really engage
with the chat. Like, they adopt the parts
that are useful for them for manipulating
their wives and stuff and then no need to
get into the specifics cuz it's really difficult
to keep up.
>> KAREN: No, and I suppose that if anybody
doesn't believe us I challenge them to do
the same.
>> JEAN: Totally.
>> KAREN: We've already given you all the
security questions.
>> KAREN & JEAN: [laughs]
>> JEAN: You're welcome.
>> KAREN: Just sit and observe.
>> JEAN: Yeah just sit and observe go spend
a lot of time in transbook. But yeah I mean,
again just the bias is there. Like, I'm definitely
not looking at this objectively.[laughs] At
all.
>> KAREN: No. No, definitely not, but I mean,
it did strike me that like the fact that something
would confirm my bias within two to three
posts every time, it was like kind of telling.
>> JEAN: Mm hmm. Yeah.
>> KAREN: Like there'd be something funny
or sad or just worthy of sharing just immediately.
Every time.
>> JEAN: Immediately, yeah.
>> KAREN: Every single time without fail.
>> JEAN: Yeah, it was never a slow day.
>> KAREN: No.[laughs] No, and actually at
one point I was just like I did kind of stop
looking at it because it was just like it's
the same every day but any time I would be
like, "well I'm just gonna go see," you know
maybe somebody would send me something and
I'd be like, "oh I want to top that," and
I would just sign in.
>> JEAN: [laughs]
>> KAREN: And I mean, how many things, like,
I don't know, maybe we shouldn't... we just
seem like the biggest bitches.[laughs]
>> JEAN: [laughs]
>> KAREN: It's not hard for me to switch to
a compassionate view like for individuals
and to realize that like these are individual
people who are mental,
>> JEAN: Yeah.
>> KAREN: or you know, and maybe don't have
a ton of choice in the matter, in a sense
of how they behave, but I don't like excusing
all this behavior either and I... especially
people who don't actually go and look into
these things end up getting like totally,
I know "gaslighted" is a little bit overused
of a term, but like... it's not surprising
to me that a lot of psychotic killers are
coming out with trans identities. It's not
surprising to me.
>> JEAN: No, no, not at all. And it seems
whenever they talk about you know that, "there's
no reason that they would transition in prison,"
like, "there would be no reason to do that
they're, in more danger," and stuff like that,
I was like, "oh you've you have no scope of
what people get up to," Like how crafty and
manipulative people get, and they're encouraged
to get as well when spending long periods
of time in custody.
>> KAREN: Yeah and I don't actually believe
that they don't know. I just think they just
really don't want to.
>> JEAN: Yeah, they would rather not think
about it. Yeah.
>> KAREN: Yeah, it it's so strange. I mean,
that's the other thing is like the fact that
like cross-dressing has been part of like
creepy sex murders, that you know people who
follow that kind of shit certainly know about
but now we have to all pretend that like
>> JEAN: That these things aren't related
yeah
>> KAREN: that they're not related.
>> JEAN: The cross-dressing isn't related
to holding women in poor regard.
>> KAREN: Right.
>> JEAN: In like, really like poor regard.
>> KAREN: Yes. Yeah.
>> JEAN: So what are your goals for transbook
moving forward?
>> KAREN: Like, what should we do with the
account?
>> JEAN: Mm-hmm.
>> KAREN: I don't know. I don't know. What
do you think we should do with it?
>> JEAN: I'm really happy with our journey
so far. I mean, I just don't get a lot of
time to look at it anymore, which is sad really,
but it really bums me out as well. I'm going
to put it out there. You know, even though
I just selected a few things for saddest stuff,
in general the whole vibe of it really bums
me out, and I just start to get really nervous
when I look at it too much. I need to go and
look at some reality
>> KAREN: Yeah.
>> JEAN: to remind myself.
>> KAREN: There was one group called "Daughters
of Abusive Mothers."
>> JEAN: Ugh, yeah, yep.
>> KAREN: and that had nothing to do with
trans stuff, but I joined it because there
was a trans woman in there who seemed to only
post like selfies or you know like pictures
of themselves, and like their journey trying
to get hired at Hooters. But every other post
was an actual woman just talking about the
most depressing shit, and I was like, "you
know what it's not worth it to get these trans
screenshots."
>> JEAN: This was the one where he posted
pictures of himself in a bra, said that he
took the bra from his sister and then was
trying to get other women in this "Abused
Daughters of Abusive Mothers" group, trying
to get them to post pictures of themselves
in bras or their breasts to see how big their
breasts are. That's the one you're talking
about, right?
>> KAREN: Uh, I don't know...
>> JEAN: Yeah. That's the one with the Hooters
guy.
>> KAREN: That's the Hooters guy? Yes. Yup.
Yup. Yup. These women need some radical feminism
so they can have more of a backbone.
>> JEAN: Yeah, I'll be honest, I throw out
low key radicalizing tips in the "Trans Spouse
Support Group," and they're generally quite
well received. Like, "kind of sounds like
your partner has a really limited idea of
what a woman is."
>> BOTH: [laugh]
>> JEAN: That will get quite a few likes actually.
>> BOTH: [laugh]
>> [OUTRO MUSIC STARTS]
>> KAREN: I don't know. I don't know at what
point this thing ended.
>> JEAN: That's fine. [laughs]
>> KAREN: I'm just so sad. [laughs]
>> BOTH: [laugh]
>> KAREN: Hi, it's Karen again. Would it be
to "female socialization-y" of me to thank
you for listening? If you like what you heard
consider donating to our Patreon. Thanks again.
Bye.
>> [OUTRO MUSIC]
