>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME
TO "AMANPOUR & CO."
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
IS AMERICA BACK TO SQUARE ONE
WITH CORONAVIRUS SURGING, SOME
STATES SHUT DOWN AGAIN?
I ASK EPIDEMIC EXPERT RICHARD
HATCHETT ABOUT THE RACE FOR A -
BEFORE POLITICS.
>>> PLUS -- THE BIGGEST JAILER
IN THE WORLD.
WE LOOK AT THE MASS
INCARCERATIONS OF BLACKS IN THE
UNITED STATES AND THE FAILURE OF
THE 13th AMENDMENT TO REALLY
OUTLAW SLAVERY.
>>> THEN --
>> THIS IS A PUBLIC HEALTH
CRISIS.
IT SHOULD NOT BE A PARTISAN
HEALTH CRISIS.
>> NOW, RE-OPENING SCHOOLS
BECOMES A PARTISAN POLITICAL
BATTLEGROUND.
OUTGOING PRESIDENT TO THE
UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, JANET
NAPOLITANO, JOINS OUR WALTER
ISAACSON.
>> "AMANPOUR & CO." IS MADE
POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY
FUND.
SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III.
THE CHERYL AND PHILIP MILSTEIN
FAMILY.
CANDACE KING WEIR.
THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION.
BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ.
CHARLES ROSENBLUM.
JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.
ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY
THESE FUNDERS --
AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS
STATIONS FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM,
EVERYONE.
I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR WORKING
FROM HOME IN LONDON.
AS EUROPE KICK STARTS ITS
ECONOMY OUT OF LOCKDOWN AMID A
SERIOUS TEST AND TRACE PROGRAM,
PARTS OF THE UNITED STATES ARE
IN REVERSE GEAR.
SHUTTING DOWN AGAIN.
WITH A RECORD SURGE OF
CORONAVIRUS CASES ACROSS THE
COUNTRY.
SOME STATES LIKE CALIFORNIA ARE
REIMPOSING RESTRICTIONS THAT
HAVE BEEN LIFTED JUST A FEW
WEEKS AGO, AND AT LEAST HALF THE
STARTS ARE PUTTING A HOLD ON
RE-OPENING BUSINESSES.
AMERICA'S CHIEF INFECTIOUS
DISEASE EXPERT DR. ANTHONY FAUCI
WARNS THE NATION'S
PUBLIC HEALTH CARE IS IN
TATTERS, HE SAYS, AND DOCTORS
ARE, QUOTE, BUILDING THE PLANE
WHILE THEY ARE FLYING IT.
AND THE NUMBERS DON'T LIE.
AS AMERICA STILL TOPS THE WORLD
IN THE NUMBER OF CONFIRMED CASES
AND DEATHS.
SO, FINDING A VACCINE GETS MORE
AND MORE URGENT, BUT JUST HOW
CLOSE OR HOW FAR ARE WE FROM
GETTING ONE?
MY FIRST GUEST IS DR. RICHARD
HATCHETT.
HE SERVED AS AN ADVISER ON
PANDEMICS FOR PRESIDENTS GEORGE
W. BUSH AND BARACK OBAMA AND
HE'S NOW CEO OF THE COALITION
FOR EPIDEMIC PREPAREDNESS, WHICH
HAS NINE VACCINES UNDER WAY
RIGHT NOW.
DOCTOR, THANK YOU FOR JOINING
ME.
THE LAST TIME WE HAD YOU ON WAS
A COUPLE MONTHS AGO.
YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT THE
TIMEFRAME FOR A VACCINE AND WERE
SAYING POTENTIALLY 12 TO 18
MONTHS.
WHERE ARE WE NOW?
ANY CLOSER?
>> WELL, IT WAS A COUPLE OF
MONTHS AGO, SO WE ARE CLOSER --
HI, CHRISTIANE.
NICE TO BE BACK ON THE SHOW.
WE ARE BEGINNING TO SEE EARLY
DATA FROM SOME OF THE EARLY
CLINICAL STUDIES, AND I WOULD
SAY THAT THE DATA THAT WE'RE
SEEING, WHILE IT'S LIMITED, IS
NOT DISCOURAGING, IT'S EVEN
ENCOURAGING, SO WE'RE NOT
RUNNING INTO ANY MAJOR HURDLES
YET.
WE HAVE A LONG WAY TO GO.
WHEN I MADE THAT PREDICTION,
YOU KNOW, REALLY THE PREDICTION
IS THAT WE HOPE TO HAVE VACCINES
THAT ARE BECOMING MORE BROADLY
AVAILABLE IN THE FIRST HALF OF
NEXT YEAR AND I WOULD SAY THAT'S
STILL WHAT WE'RE ASPIRING FOR.
>> SO I'M GOING TO GET MORE
DETAIL ON THE VACCINE FROM YOU,
BUT FIRST I WANT TO RAISE WITH
YOU THE OBVIOUS PROBLEMS WHICH
ARE BEHAVIORAL IN THE UNITED
STATES AND SOME OTHER PARTS OF
THE WORLD.
AND THE HEAD OF THE W.H.O., DR.
TEDROS, HAD THIS TO SAY ABOUT
WHAT'S GOING ON AROUND THE WORLD
RIGHT NOW.
JUST TAKE A LISTEN.
>> LET ME BE BLUNT.
TOO MANY COUNTRIES ARE HEADED IN
THE WRONG DIRECTION.
THE VIRUS REMAINS PUBLIC ENEMY
NUMBER ONE, BUT THE ACTIONS OF
MANY GOVERNMENTS AND PEOPLE DO
NOT REFLECT OF THIS.
THE ONLY AIM OF THE VIRUS IS TO
FIND PEOPLE TO INFECT.
MIXED MESSAGES FROM LEADERS ARE
UNDERMINING THE MOST CRITICAL
INGREDIENT OF ANY RESPONSE.
>> SO, DR. HATCHETT, YOU ARE
ALSO A BEHAVIORAL EXPERT.
YOU CAME UP WITH, HELP PIONEER
THE IDEA OF SOCIAL DISTANCING,
AS A NECESSARY ELEMENT OF
PANDEMIC REACTION.
SO, WE HAVE ISSUES WITH SOCIAL
DISTANCING AND RULES ON THAT,
ALL SORTS OF MIXED MESSAGES.
WE HAVE ISSUES WITH MASKS, ALL
SORTS OF MIXED MESSAGES.
EVEN THIS GOVERNMENT HERE IN THE
UK IS SAYING THEY'RE GOING TO BE
MANDATORY IN SHOPS, IN STORES,
ON JULY 24th.
I MEAN, PICK THAT DATE OUT OF
THE AIR.
AND THEN ONLY THE CUSTOMERS WILL
BE HAVING TO WEAR THEM, NOT THE
STAFF.
JUST FROM YOUR EXPERTISE,
DESCRIBE HOW THIS MIXED
MESSAGING IS POTENTIALLY A
PROBLEM AS WE SEE THIS SURGE OF
CASES.
>> WELL, ANY TIME YOU HAVE MIXED
MESSAGING, IT CAN PRODUCE
CONFUSION, OBVIOUSLY.
SO WE DO WANT TO BE VERY CLEAR
IN OUR GUIDANCE TO THE PUBLIC
ABOUT THE STEPS THAT THEY CAN
TAKE TO PROTECT THEMSELVES, TO
PROTECT THEIR FAMILY MEMBERS AND
TO PROTECT OTHER MEMBERS OF
THEIR COMMUNITY.
AND I THINK THE UNDERLYING IDEA
BEHIND SOCIAL DISTANCING
MEASURES, BEHIND THE IDEA OF
WEARING MASKS, BEHIND THE IDEA
OF GOOD PERSONAL HAND HYGIENE IS
THAT WE ARE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER
AND THAT THE BEHAVIORAL CHOICES
THAT INDIVIDUALS MAKE AND THAT
GROUPS MAKE HAVE A HUGE IMPACT
ON DISEASE TRANSMISSION.
AND PEOPLE NEED TO UNDERSTAND
THAT WHILE WE DON'T HAVE
DEFINITIVE TREATMENTS OR
VACCINES, THESE ARE THE KINDS OF
MEASURES THAT WE'RE ALL GOING TO
HAVE TO ADOPT IF WE ARE GOING TO
SUPPRESS TRANSMISSION AND KEEP
THE RATES OF DISEASE, AND OF
COURSE KEEP THE RATES OF DEATH,
DOWN AS LOW AS WE POSSIBLY CAN.
>> SO, AGAIN, I JUST WANT TO
REFER TO DR. FAUCI WHO, AS YOU
KNOW, AND AS WE ALL NOW KNOW,
SEEMS TO BE IN SOME KIND OF
BATTLE OF CREDIBILITY WITH THE
WHITE HOUSE.
HE'S USING OTHER AVENUES TO GET
VERY SERIOUS AND IMPORTANT
MESSAGES ACROSS.
ALLEGEDLY HE SEEMS TO HAVE NOT
BRIEFED THE PRESIDENT BY HIS OWN
ADMISSION FOR TWO MONTHS,
ALTHOUGH APPARENTLY IN TOUCH
WITH THE VICE PRESIDENT'S TASK
FORCE.
HERE'S WHAT HE SAID JUST NOW, "A
MISSTEP IN COMMUNICATING TO
THE PUBLIC THE BENEFITS OF MASK
WEARING EARLY ON HAS HURT ITS
CREDIBILITY AS A PUBLIC HEALTH
TOOL."
DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT, FIRST,
AND WOULD YOU URGE PEOPLE TO
JUST DO IT NOW IN THE ABSENCE OF
TREATMENT AND VACCINES?
>> OH, I ABSOLUTELY WOULD.
I THINK THE EMERGING DATA IS
HIGHLY SUPPORTIVE OF THE IDEA
THAT IF COMMUNITIES ADOPT MASK
WEARING AS A GENERAL BEHAVIOR,
DISEASE TRANSMISSION GOES DOWN.
AND WHETHER THAT'S BECAUSE THE
MASK IS PREVENTING INFECTED
PEOPLE FROM, YOU KNOW, RELEASING
COVID-19, YOU KNOW, INTO THE
AIR, WHETHER IT PROTECTS PEOPLE,
WHETHER IT REMINDS PEOPLE THAT
THEY'RE IN THE MIDST OF A
PANDEMIC OR ALL OF THOSE THINGS
TOGETHER, WHICH IS PROBABLY THE
CASE, MASK WEARING CLEARLY
PROVIDES BENEFITS TO COMMUNITIES
THAT ARE FACING OUTBREAKS.
SO, I WOULD URGE PEOPLE TO ADOPT
MASK WEARING AS A BEHAVIOR THAT
WE'RE JUST GOING TO HAVE TO ALL
GET USED TO DURING THIS PERIOD
WHEN WE DON'T HAVE VACCINES.
I WOULD ALSO URGE PEOPLE TO
ADOPT OTHER PROTECTIVE
BEHAVIORS.
I THINK MANY PEOPLE HAVE.
YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY, EVERYBODY
HAS BEEN EAGER TO COME OUT OF
LOCKDOWN.
THIS HAS BEEN AN EXTREMELY
DIFFICULT PERIOD FOR MANY
PEOPLE.
IT'S ECONOMICALLY CHALLENGING.
IT'S ISOLATING SOCIALLY.
PEOPLE HAVE BEEN HUNGRY TO
EMERGE FROM LOCKDOWN, BUT WE
HAVE TO DO IT IN A SENSIBLE WAY,
WE HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT THE
VIRUS IS STILL WITH US.
WE CAN LOOK AT THE UNITED STATES
WHERE IT'S VERY CLEAR THAT MANY
STATES EMERGED FROM LOCKDOWN TOO
EARLY BEFORE THEY WERE READY TO
CONTROL VIRAL TRANSMISSION, AND
NOW WE'RE SEEING DRAMATICALLY
ESCALATING RATES OF DISEASE
TRANSMISSION, THEY'RE SEEING
ESCALATING RATES OF
HOSPITALIZATIONS, AND A FEW
STATES ARE BEGINNING TO SEE
RISES IN THE DEATH RATE.
I THINK WE CAN ANTICIPATE THOSE
NUMBERS ARE GOING TO GET
PROBABLY A LOT WORSE BEFORE THEY
GET BETTER.
THOSE OF US IN OTHER SETTINGS,
YOU KNOW, WE HAVE MADE HUGE
SACRIFICES TO ACHIEVE THE GAINS
THAT WE HAVE ACHIEVED.
WE NEED TO KEEP DISEASE
TRANSMISSION LOW.
SCIENTISTS ARE WORKING AS HARD
AS THEY POSSIBLY CAN TO DEVELOP
TREATMENTS, TO DEVELOP VACCINES.
THOSE VACCINES ARE ON THE WAY,
BUT THEY ARE SOME WAYS OFF, AND
WE NEED TO KEEP THIS EPIDEMIC
UNDER CONTROL UNTIL WE CAN
DISTRIBUTE THOSE MORE BROADLY.
>> SO YOU JUST MENTIONED
DISTRIBUTE.
AGAIN, WE DON'T EVEN HAVE A
VACCINE AND YOU'VE ALL BEEN VERY
CLEAR ABOUT THE LENGTH OF TIME
IT COULD TAKE.
THERE ARE, YOU KNOW, DOZENS IN
TRIALS RIGHT NOW.
SOME IN HUMAN TRIALS, IN FACT.
BUT THE QUESTION, OF COURSE, IS
ALSO LET'S SAY YOU FIND ONE.
THERE ARE ALL SORTS OF ISSUES
THAT ARE ALSO VERY, VERY CLOSELY
CONNECTED.
SO DEMAND AND DISTRIBUTION AND
MANUFACTURING.
WHAT ARE THE MOST DIFFICULT
HURDLES ONCE YOU ACTUALLY HAVE A
VACCINE THAT YOU'RE MOST WORRIED
ABOUT IN THE IMMEDIATE INSTANCE?
>> I THINK, OVERALL, MY BIGGEST
CONCERN, AND THIS HAS BEEN A
CONCERN FROM THE VERY BEGINNING,
IS THAT VACCINES, WHEN THEY
BECOME AVAILABLE, WILL INITIALLY
BE AVAILABLE IN SHORT SUPPLY.
WE REALLY DON'T SEE A SCENARIO
IN 2021 WHERE THE SUPPLY OF
VACCINE EXCEEDS THE GLOBAL
DEMAND.
AND WE ARE DEVELOPING VACCINES
FOR ONE REASON: TO END THE
PANDEMIC.
AND TO END THE PANDEMIC, WE NEED
TO USE THAT SCARCE RESOURCE VERY
CAREFULLY, WE NEED TO GET IT TO
THE PEOPLE WHO ARE AT GREATEST
RISK.
ENDING THE PANDEMIC INITIALLY, I
THINK, WILL MEAN REDUCING RATES
OF SUFFERING AND DEATH.
THAT MEANS GETTING THE VACCINE
TO THE PEOPLE AT GREATEST RISK.
IT MEANS GETTING THE VACCINE TO
HEALTH CARE WORKERS, GETTING THE
VACCINE TO THE ELDERLY AND
GETTING THE VACCINE TO PEOPLE
WITH CONDITIONS THAT PUT THEM AT
GREAT RISK.
THAT MUST OCCUR GLOBALLY IF
WE'RE GOING TO BRING THE
PANDEMIC UNDER CONTROL.
MY CONCERN IS THAT INDIVIDUAL
COUNTRIES HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO
THEIR OWN POPULATIONS, AND LEFT
TO THEIR OWN DEVICES, THEY WILL
TRY TO SECURE A VACCINE FOR
THEIR OWN POPULATIONS, AND MY
CONCERN IS THAT THE LIMITED
SUPPLY OF VACCINE COULD BE
CORNERED BY JUST A FEW COUNTRIES
THAT ESSENTIALLY OVERBUY VACCINE
FOR THEIR POPULATIONS, LEADING
TO MISALLOCATION OF VACCINE AND
LEADING, ACTUALLY, TO THE
PERPETUATION OF THE PANDEMIC AND
LEADING TO THE PROLONGATION OF
SUFFERING INCREASED DEATH AND
PROLONGATION OF THE ECONOMIC
DESTRUCTION THAT THE PANDEMIC IS
CAUSING.
AND WE'VE BEEN WORKING REALLY
HARD TO TRY TO COME UP WITH AN
ALTERNATIVE.
>> WELL, LET ME JUST PLAY WHAT
BILL GATES, OBVIOUSLY, WHO'S
ALSO INVOLVED WITH YOU,
OBVIOUSLY IS RIGHT IN THERE WITH
THE VACCINE DEVELOPMENT.
THIS IS WHAT HE SAID ON SATURDAY
ABOUT WHAT YOU WERE JUST TALKING
ABOUT, ABOUT THE CONCERNS YOU
JUST RAISED.
>> IF WE JUST LET DRUGS AND
VACCINES GO TO THE HIGHEST
BIDDERS INSTEAD OF TO THE PEOPLE
AND THE PLACES WHERE THEY'RE
MOST NEEDED, WE'LL HAVE A
LONGER, MORE UNJUST, DEADLIER
PANDEMIC.
WE NEED LEADERS TO MAKE THESE
HARD DECISIONS ABOUT
DISTRIBUTING BASED ON EQUITY,
NOT JUST ON MARKET-DRIVEN
FACTORS.
>> SO, DR. HATCHETT, YOU KNOW,
YOU ALMOST RAISED AN ISSUE OF
HOARDING VACCINES, THAT
INDIVIDUAL GOVERNMENTS COULD
JUST HOARD THEM AND STOCKPILE
THEM FOR THEIR OWN CITIZENS.
YOU KNOW, YOU JUST HEARD BILL
GATES TALK ABOUT LEADERS TO MAKE
THIS AN EQUITABLE AND FAIR
DISTRIBUTION.
I MEAN, IF YOU COULD -- I GUESS
IF YOU COULD ORGANIZE THE
DISTRIBUTION, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY
ABSOLUTELY HAS TO HAPPEN?
>> WELL, I THINK THAT COUNTRIES
NEED TO COME TOGETHER.
THERE HAVE BEEN A LOT OF PEOPLE
WHO HAVE TALKED ABOUT VACCINE
NATIONALISM WHICH LEADS TO THE
KIND OF HOARDING AND
MISALLOCATION WE'VE BEEN TALKING
ABOUT, LEADS TO THE TYPE OF
INEQUITY THAT MR. GATES WAS JUST
DESCRIBING.
THERE'S AN ALTERNATIVE TO THAT.
AND THAT'S VACCINE
MULTILATERALISM.
AND RIGHT NOW WE ARE ACTIVELY
ENGAGED WITH OUR PARTNERS AT
W.H.O. AND AT GAVI, THE VACCINE
ALLIANCE, TO DEVELOP A MECHANISM
TO ALLOW COUNTRIES TO WORK
TOGETHER TO ACCELERATE VACCINE
DEVELOPMENT AND TO SPEED VACCINE
PRODUCTION AND DELIVERY AND TO
ENSURE THAT VACCINE IS DELIVERED
GLOBALLY IN AN EQUITABLE FASHION
WHICH IS ALSO THE FASHION THAT
WILL LEAD TO IT BEING
DISTRIBUTED TO THE PEOPLE WHO
NEED IT MOST WHICH MEANS ENDING
THE PANDEMIC AS SOON AS
POSSIBLE.
AND WE CALL THIS EFFORT -- THIS
IS UNDER SOMETHING CALLED THE
ACCESS TO COVID-19 TOOLS WHICH
HAS THE ACRONYM, A.C.T., THE
A.C.T. ACCELERATOR AS A PILLAR
UNDER IT FOCUSED ON VACCINES
THAT WE CALL COVEX.
I'D LIKE TO GET THE NAME OUT.
COVEX IS THE EFFORT TO PROMOTE
VACCINE MULTILATERALISM TO
COUNTRIES SHARING RISK IN
VACCINE DEVELOPMENT, SHARING THE
COST OF SPEEDING THE PRODUCTION
AND THE DELIVERY OF VACCINE, AND
AGREEING MUTUALLY TO SHARE THAT
VACCINE EQUITABLY SO THAT WE GET
IT TO THE PEOPLE WHO NEED IT
MOST AS FAST AS WE POSSIBLY CAN
WITH THE GOAL, ACTUALLY, OF
BRINGING THE ACUTE PHASE OF THE
PANDEMIC TO AN END BY THE END OF
2021.
>> SO LET'S SAY ALL THAT IS WELL
AND GOOD, GREAT INTENTIONS.
IN A PERFECT WORLD YOU'LL HAVE
THE VACCINE AND THEN YOU WANT TO
DISTRIBUTE IT AND GET PEOPLE TO
ACTUALLY AGREE TO TAKE IT.
NOW LISTEN TO DR. ANTHONY
FAUCI'S WARNING.
>> THERE IS A GENERAL
ANTI-SCIENCE, ANTI-AUTHORITY,
ANTI-VACCINE FEELING AMONG SOME
PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY.
AND IT'S FOR THE GOOD OF THEM AS
INDIVIDUALS AND SOCIETY TO TAKE
THE VACCINE.
AN ALARMINGLY LARGE PERCENTAGE
OF PEOPLE, RELATIVELY SPEAKING.
>> SO, DR. HATCHETT, THIS IS
ACTUALLY THE ANTI-VACCINE,
PEOPLE WORRIED ABOUT TAKING A
VACCINE THAT THEY THINK MIGHT BE
RUSHED, THAT DOESN'T HAVE THE
NORMAL CHECKS AND BALANCES OF
TRIALS AND FDA APPROVAL.
AND LOOK AT THE FIGURES.
YOU KNOW, POLLS SUGGESTING THE
UNITED STATES MAYBE ONLY HALF TO
TWO-THIRDS WOULD TAKE THE
VACCINE.
IN EUROPE A VERY, VERY
TRUSTWORTHY POLL FOUND BETWEEN
10% AND 22% OF PEOPLE DON'T
TRUST THAT VACCINES ARE SAFE.
IN FRANCE A THIRD OF PEOPLE
DISAGREE THAT THE VACCINES ARE
SAFE.
IN EASTERN EUROPE THE NUMBER IS
AS HIGH AS 50%.
SO YOU NEED 95% VACCINE TAKEUP
FOR IT TO ACTUALLY MAKE A
DIFFERENCE IN COMMUNITY HEALTH.
HOW WORRIED ARE YOU ABOUT THAT
PROBLEM, IF YOU COME TO IT?
>> WELL, I DON'T THINK YOU NEED
95% UPTAKE FOR THE VACCINE TO
PLAY A CRITICAL ROLE IN ENDING
THE ACUTE PHASE OF THE PANDEMIC.
WHAT'S CALLED THE HERD IMMUNITY
THRESHOLD, THIS IS WHEN THE
THRESHOLD OF IMMUNITY IN A
POPULATION THAT IS REQUIRED TO
ESSENTIALLY BRING THE EPIDEMIC
UNDER CONTROL BY ITSELF IS
ESTIMATED TO PROBABLY BE BETWEEN
60% AND 70% FOR COVID-19.
SO YOU DON'T NEED 95% UPTAKE,
BUT I THINK THE PROBLEM DR.
FAUCI WAS DESCRIBING WHICH IS A
DISTRUST IN GOVERNMENT AND A
DISTRUST OF VACCINES, THAT IS A
VERY REAL PROBLEM.
AND I THINK THE CHALLENGE THAT
WE FACE RIGHT NOW TO DEVELOP A
VACCINE AS RAPIDLY AS WE CAN
CERTAINLY PLAYS INTO THE FEARS
THAT SOME PEOPLE HAVE ABOUT
VACCINE SAFETY.
AND I THINK WHAT WE NEED TO DO
IS BE VERY FORCEFUL IN
REASSURING PEOPLE THAT IN
SPEEDING VACCINE DEVELOPMENT, WE
ARE NOT WILLING TO TAKE RISKS ON
DEMONSTRATING THAT THE VACCINES
WORK OR DEMONSTRATING THAT THEY
ARE SAFE.
WE ARE WILLING TO TAKE RISKS
FINANCIALLY.
AND IT'S THE FINANCIAL RISKS
THAT WE TAKE THAT WILL ALLOW US
TO SPEED UP THE DEVELOPMENT
PRETTY DRAMATICALLY.
AND THOSE ARE RISKS THAT WE
SHOULD BE WILLING TO TAKE, BUT
WE CANNOT TAKE RISKS IN
DEVELOPING VACCINES OR PUTTING
OUT VACCINES THAT ARE UNSAFE.
AND WE HAVE TO MONITOR THE
VACCINES BOTH DURING CLINICAL
TRIALS BUT ALSO AS WE ROLL THEM
OUT TO LARGE NUMBERS OF PEOPLE
BECAUSE WE CAN ANTICIPATE THAT,
YOU KNOW, IF A VERY LARGE NUMBER
OF PEOPLE RECEIVE A VACCINE,
PARTICULARLY PEOPLE IN THE
HIGHEST-RISK GROUPS, PEOPLE WITH
UNDERLYING, YOU KNOW, HEART
PROBLEMS OR HYPERTENSION OR
DIABETES OR OVER THE AGE OF 65,
YOU KNOW, THERE MAY BE CHANCE
EVENTS THAT OCCUR WHERE SOMEBODY
RECEIVES A VACCINE AND HAS A
HEART ATTACK, YOU KNOW, WITHIN A
FEW DAYS BECAUSE WE'RE GIVING
THE VACCINE TO LOTS AND LOTS OF
PEOPLE.
AND WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO
DESCRIBE THOSE RISKS, WE NEED TO
BE ABLE TO DESCRIBE THE KINDS OF
RATES OF THESE BAD OUTCOMES THAT
WE MIGHT EXPECT NORMALLY, EVEN
IN POPULATIONS THAT DON'T
RECEIVE VACCINE, AND WE NEED TO
BE ABLE TO HAVE A VERY OPEN
DIALOGUE WITH THE PUBLIC ABOUT
WHAT WE ARE DOING AND ABOUT ALL
OF THE PRECAUTIONS THAT WE ARE
TAKING TO ENSURE THAT THE
VACCINES ARE, IN FACT, SAFE AND
THAT THEY DO WORK.
>> ALL RIGHT.
DR. RICHARD HATCHETT, THAT IS A
BIG CHALLENGE BECAUSE, OF
COURSE, SCIENCE AND POLITICS ARE
ALL MIXED UP AND IT'S A VERY
SERIOUS PROBLEM RIGHT NOW.
THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.
>>> NOW, THE OTHER PANDEMIC, OF
COURSE, RAVAGING THE UNITED
STATES IS RACISM.
VIEWERSHIP FOR AVA DUVENEAU'S
2016 DOCUMENTARY, "13th," IS
SURGING AGAIN.
IT SHOWS HOW THE 13th AMENDMENT
OF THE U.S. CONSTITUTION
OUTLAWED SLAVERY OVER 150 YEARS
AGO BUT ESSENTIALLY PERMITTED IT
TO CONTINUE VIA THE SIDE DOOR OF
MASS INCARCERATION.
NOW, TO DISCUSS THE IMPLICATIONS
OF THIS TODAY, I'M JOINED BY TWO
GUESTS WHO BOTH FEATURED IN THE
DOCUMENTARY.
ATTORNEY DEBORAH SMALL IS THE
FOUNDER OF BREAK THE CHAINS, AN
ORGANIZATION THAT LOOKS AT DRUG
POLICY REFORM.
SHE'S JOINING US FROM SAN
FRANCISCO.
AND HISTORIAN AND HARVARD
PROFESSOR KHALIL MUHAMMAD IS
JOINING US FROM NEW JERSEY.
WELCOME TO YOU BOTH.
LISTEN, MAY I JUST START BY
READING THE RELEVANT PART OF THE
13th AMENDMENT AND GET YOU TO
EXPLAIN WHY IT HAS BEEN SUCH A
SORT OF A MISNOMER.
SO IT SAYS IN PART, "NEITHER
SLAVERY NOR INVOLUNTARY
SERVITUDE EXCEPT AS A PUNISHMENT
FOR CRIME WHEREOF THE PARTY
SHOULD HAVE BEEN DULY CONVICTED
SHALL EXIST IN THE UNITED STATES
OR ANY PLACE SUBJECT TO THEIR
JURISDICTION."
KHALIL MUHAMMAD, I HAVE NEVER
UNDERSTOOD THAT PHRASE AND HOW
IT PERVERTED, IN FACT, THE CAUSE
OF BANNING SLAVERY IN THE UNITED
STATES.
>> WELL, THE 13th AMENDMENT, AS
YOU JUST READ, HAS ALMOST
UNIVERSALLY BEEN UNDERSTOOD AS
THE LEGISLATION THAT
FUNDAMENTALLY ENDED 250 YEARS OF
SLAVERY.
AND, THEREFORE, THE SLAVERY
LOOPHOLE WHICH IS THE CLAUSE FOR
PUNISHMENT OF A CRIME, HAS NEVER
REALLY GOTTEN THE AMOUNT OF
SCHOLARLY OR LEGAL ATTENTION
THAT IT DESERVED.
BUT, IN FACT, IT WAS THE ACT
LITERALLY OVERNIGHT WITHIN MONTH
S, AS THEY WERE GOING THROUGH A
PROCESS OF RECONSTRUCTION,
TURNED TO NEW CRIMINAL STATUTES
IN ORDER TO RE-ENSLAVE THAT
POPULATION OF AFRICAN-AMERICANS.
SO IT'S HAD INCREDIBLE UTILITY
IN THE AMERICAN POLITICAL
ECONOMY BOTH IN THE SOUTH AND
ACROSS THE NATION.
>> LET ME THEN TURN TO DEBRA
JEFFERSON SMALL.
WHY DO YOU THINK THAT LANGUAGE
WAS USED THERE AND CONTINUES TO
THIS DAY?
>> I THINK THE THING WE HAVE TO
REMEMBER THAT SLAVERY IS THAT
RACISM IS A PRODUCT AND IN
SUPPORT OF CAPITALISM.
AND THAT SLAVERY WAS BASICALLY A
CAPITALIST ENTERPRISE.
SO FROM THE VERY BEGINNING OF
THE PERIOD AFTER WHICH BLACK
PEOPLE WERE LEGALLY NO LONGER
ENSLAVED, THE SAME ECONOMIC
FORCES WERE LOOKING FOR WAYS TO
CONTINUE TO PROFIT FROM FREE
LABOR.
SO THIS EXCEPTION IN THE
STATUTE, REGARDING THE ABILITY
TO PUNISH A PERSON FOR
CONVICTION OF A CRIME, CREATED
THE PERFECT OPPORTUNITY.
AND I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO
REMEMBER THAT THE KINDS OF
CRIMES THAT BLACK PEOPLE WERE
BEING LOCKED UP FOR AND
CONVICTED OF WERE THINGS LIKE
VAGRANCY, LIKE STEALING A PIG,
LIKE DOING BASIC KIND OF
SURVIVAL CRIMES OR MISDEMEANOR
OFFENSES.
MANY OF THE SAME KINDS OF THINGS
THAT ARE CURRENTLY BEING USED BY
OUR PRISON INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX TO
SUPPORT MASS INCARCERATION.
>> SO, YOU KNOW, YOU USE THAT
TERM, AND CLEARLY THE STATISTICS
ARE SHOCKING.
OF COURSE, THE UNITED STATES HAS
THE HIGHEST RATE OF
INCARCERATION THAN ANY NATION
AROUND THE WORLD.
THERE ARE MORE THAN 2 MILLION
AMERICANS IN PRISON CURRENTLY.
AND ACCORDING TO STATISTICS,
BLACK MEN HAVE A ONE IN THREE
CHANCE OF BEING INCARCERATED IN
THE COURSE OF THEIR LIFETIME,
WHEREAS LATINO MEN HAVE A ONE
MANY SIX CHANCE, AND WHITE MEN
HAVE A 1 IN 17 CHANCE.
HOW DID WE ACTUALLY GET TO THIS
STAGE?
LET'S JUST SAY BLACK MEN.
THE BLACK POPULATION, IF I'M NOT
MISTAKEN, IS ABOUT 12% OF THE
ENTIRE U.S. POPULATION, AND YET
YOU HAVE THIS COMPLETE IMBALANCE
IN THE IMPRISONMENT.
INCARCERATION RATE.
PROFESSOR, HOW DID IT GET TO
THIS POINT?
>> DEBORAH'S RIGHT THAT THE
BUSINESS OF THE NATION, FUELING
AN ECONOMY THAT LITERALLY HELPED
BUILD THE WORLD.
AMERICA BY 1913 WAS THE WORLD'S
LARGEST MANUFACTURER.
HAD THE FOOTPRINT CHINA HAS
TODAY WITH REGARD TO WEALTH.
THE HARNESSING OF BLACK LABOR
WAS ALWAYS GOING TO CONTINUE
WITH REGARD TO THE END OF
SLAVERY.
THE QUESTION OF MASS
INCARCERATION IS ONE, WHAT WE'VE
SEEN IN THE SOUTH IN THE DECADES
FOLLOWING THE END OF THE WAR
INTO THE EARLY 20th CENTURY WAS
NOT MASS INCARCERATION.
IT MIGHT BE BETTER DESCRIBED AS
MASS CRIMINALIZATION.
THE ENTIRE POINT OF
CRIMINALIZING AFRICAN-AMERICANS
WAS TO USE THE POWER OF THE
STATE AS A FORM OF COERCION OR
THEIR SECOND-CLASS CITIZENSHIP
TO MAKE SURE THEY WOULD WORK FOR
WHITE LANDOWNERS IN THE SOUTH OR
FOR WHITE MANUFACTURERS IN THE
NORTH UNDER UNFAIR LABOR
CONDITIONS, THAT THEY WOULD HAVE
LITTLE ECONOMIC BARGAINING
POWER.
BY THE THREAT OF ARREST OR
PUNISHMENT.
THAT LASTED UNTIL THE 1970s WHEN
THEIR LABOR POWER WAS NOT AS
NECESSARY.
THEN BLACK MEN MET THE FORCES OF
MASS INCARCERATION THAT "13th"
SO ELOQUENTLY DESCRIBED.
>> AND DEBORAH SMALL, YOU HAVE
DONE A LOT OF WORK ON THE WAR ON
DRUGS ESSENTIALLY WHICH
EXPONENTIALLY INCREASED THE
PRISON POPULATION.
CAN YOU EXPLAIN HOW THAT, WHEN
IT CAME IN, JUST AS I SAID, YOU
KNOW, FILLED THE JAILS MORE AND
MORE AND MORE?
>> SO I THINK WE HAVE TO
REMEMBER THAT FROM THE VERY
BEGINNING OF DRUG PROHIBITION,
THE DRUGS THAT WE CHOSE TO
CRIMINALIZE AND THE NARRATIVE
AROUND THEM WAS ALWAYS HIGHLY
RACIALIZED.
SO OPIUM WAS MADE ILLEGAL IN
RESPONSE OR SPECIFICALLY AS A
METHOD OF CONTROLLING THE
CHINESE POPULATION IN THE WEST.
COCAINE WAS VERY EARLY ON
ASSOCIATED WITH BLACK PEOPLE AND
VIOLENCE.
THE FACT THAT WE USE THE WORD
MARIJUANA AS OPPOSED TO CANNABIS
IS DIRECTLY RELATED TO THE
HISTORY OF USING IT AGAINST
LATIN X POPULATIONS.
THE MODERN WAR ON DRUGS, WHICH
STARTED OFFICIALLY UNDER
PRESIDENT NIXON, HIS AIDES HAVE
ADMITTED THAT ONE OF THE MAIN
MOTIVATIONS BEHIND LAUNCHING A
DRUG WAR WAS TO HAVE A METHOD TO
BE ABLE TO USE LAW ENFORCEMENT
AGAINST THE ANTIWAR MOVEMENT AND
AGAINST THE BLACK LIBERATION
MOVEMENT.
SO THE DRUG WAR WAS A DIRECT
RESPONSE TO THE EVENTS AROUND
THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT AND
THE INCREASING DEMAND OF BLACK
PEOPLE, NOT JUST FOR THE END OF
BASIC RACIAL DISCRIMINATION BUT
FOR ECONOMIC JUSTICE AND
POLITICAL JUSTICE.
AND THAT MOVEMENT, AS WE KNOW,
WAS DECIDEDLY CRUSHED THROUGH
THE FORCE OF THE STATE, AND THEN
ONCE THOSE INITIAL LEADERS WERE
NEUTRALIZED PRIMARILY THROUGH
DEATHS BUT ALSO THROUGH
INCARCERATION, THE DRUG WAR
SERVED AS A METHOD OF CONTINUING
TO TARGET THOSE POPULATIONS AND
TO HAVE WIDE PUBLIC SUPPORT,
BECAUSE THE PUBLIC HAD ALREADY
BOUGHT INTO THE NARRATIVE THAT
DRUGS WERE ASSOCIATED WITH
MINORITY COMMUNITIES,
PARTICULARLY BLACK AND BROWN
COMMUNITIES.
AND THAT'S DIRECTLY CONTRIBUTED
NOT JUST TO MASS INCARCERATION,
BUT AS PROFESSOR MUHAMMAD SAID,
TO MASS CRIMINALIZATION, AND THE
INCREASING MILITARIZATION OF THE
POLICE WHO NOW SEE THEMSELVES AS
WARRIORS IN THIS DRUG WAR, AND
THE PEOPLE THAT THEY'RE AFTER
ARE THE VERY SAME PEOPLE THEY'RE
SUPPOSED TO BE PROTECTING.
>> SO CAN I ASK YOU, THEN,
PROFESSOR MUHAMMAD, BECAUSE
EXPLAIN TO US, THEN, HOW
CONTEMPORARY POLICING HAS ROOTS
IN THE SLAVE PATROLS OF THE
PRE-CIVIL WAR.
>> WELL, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT SO
DIRECT A LINE AS WE MIGHT
DESCRIBE IN A CONTEXT LIKE THIS.
BUT IF WE THINK OF IT IN THE
BIGGEST SENSE, POLICING HAS
ALWAYS BEEN ABOUT CONTROLLING
ESSENTIAL WORKERS IN THE WORLD,
BY AND LARGE, BUT ESPECIALLY IN
AMERICAN SOCIETY.
SO WHEN WE GO BACK TO THE 17th
CENTURY AND WE LOOK AT THE POINT
OF SLAVE PATROLS, THE VERY
POINT WAS THAT THE SLAVE
POPULATION WOULD STAY PUT ON
THOSE PLANTATIONS, THAT THEY
WOULD NOT ENGAGE IN
INSURRECTION, THEY WOULD NOT
STEAL THEMSELVES.
THEY WERE, IN FACT, PROPERTY.
TO ACTUALLY TAKE ONE'S SELF TO
FREEDOM WAS A FORM OF A FELONY
THEFT.
AND SO POLICING, AS AMERICA HAS
ALWAYS KNOWN IT, HAS FOCUSED
MOST EXPLICITLY ON THE LEAST
POWERFUL, THE MOST VULNERABLE
AND THOSE WHO HAD BEEN TASKED
WITH THE MOST ESSENTIAL JOBS IN
THIS COUNTRY TO LITERALLY KEEP
THE ECONOMY GOING.
SO FROM SLAVERY TO FREEDOM TO
THE PAST SEVERAL DECADES,
AFRICAN-AMERICANS AND OTHERS IN
BROWN COMMUNITIES AS WELL HAVE
BEEN SUBJECTED TO FORMS OF
SURVEILLANCE AND CONTROL OVER
THEIR CLASS POSITION IN THE
AMERICAN ECONOMY.
>> WELL, I WANT TO TALK A LITTLE
BIT MORE ABOUT THE ECONOMY,
BECAUSE IT'S KIND OF SHOCKING
THE WAY "13th," THE DOCUMENTARY,
LAYS IT OUT.
GIVEN A DIRECT LINK BETWEEN
SLAVERY AND MASS INCARCERATION
AND INVOLUNTARY PRISON LABOR
WHICH HAS PLAYED AN ENORMOUS
ECONOMIC ROLE, SIMILAR, AS MANY
SAY, TO SLAVERY PRE THE CIVIL
WAR.
CAN YOU JUST GIVE US AN EXAMPLE
OF SOME OF THE WAYS IN WHICH
PRISON LABOR IS USED IN THE
ECONOMIC SPHERE?
>> WELL, TODAY PRISON LABOR IS A
MOSTLY STATE-RUN SYSTEM, MEANING
THAT THE VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE
INCARCERATED IN PRISONS ARE IN
PUBLIC FACILITIES PAID WITH
PUBLIC DOLLARS.
THE FOOTPRINT OF PRIVATELY RUN
PRISONS MOSTLY RUNS THROUGH THE
FEDERAL SYSTEM AND THAT MOSTLY
PERTAINS TO PEOPLE BEING
DETAINED FOR VIOLATIONS OF
IMMIGRATION LAW.
SO THE POINT OF HARNESSING THE
LABOR POWER OF PEOPLE
INCARCERATED IS TO KEEP TAXES
LOW IN STATES.
IN OTHER WORDS, TO PAY PEOPLE
WHO ARE BEING PUNISHED BY LOSING
THEIR LIBERTY A DOLLAR A DAY TO
DO THINGS STATE WORKERS, PUBLIC
EMPLOYEES, WOULD OTHERWISE DO OR
BE OUTSOURCED TO PRIVATE
COMPANIES.
THERE'S ALSO A SMALL AMOUNT OF
PEOPLE TODAY WHO WORK FOR
PRIVATE CORPORATIONS.
THEY'VE BEEN SUBCONTRACTED BY
THE STATE TO PRIVATE INDUSTRY
FOR THE PURPOSE NOT UNLIKE WHAT
WAS HAPPENING IN THE JIM CROW
PERIOD, THOSE WORKING FOR U.S.
STEEL, FOR EXAMPLE, IN ALABAMA.
SO OUR SYSTEM IS MOSTLY
COMMITTED TO SPENDING IN
PUNISHMENT WHICH A SIGNIFICANT
PORTION OF THAT ALLEVIATES COST
OF INCARCERATION FOR THE STATE
BY HAVING INCARCERATED PEOPLE DO
THE WORK OR ITS RESEPTCEIPTS OR
REVENUE FROM PRIVATE
CORPORATIONS FOR A SMALL NUMBER
OF PEOPLE WHO WORK FOR A PRIVATE
INDUSTRY.
>> AND, DEBORAH, I WANT TO ASK
YOU, BECAUSE A LOT OF YOUR FOCUS
IS ON THE WAR ON DRUGS, AND YOU
TALKED ABOUT THE STORY AND THE
NARRATIVE.
OBVIOUSLY A LOT OF THAT COMES TO
THE PUBLIC VIEW VIA TELEVISION,
VIA CULTURE, AND DAVID SIMON WHO
WROTE "THE WIRE" HAS SPOKEN A
LOT ABOUT THE WAR ON DRUGS AND
HOW IT'S CONTRIBUTED TO THIS
SITUATION.
I JUST WANT TO PLAY SOMETHING
THAT HE SAID TO ME ABOUT THIS
AND GET YOU TO REACT AFTERWARDS.
>> I KNOW I SOUND LIKE A BROKEN
RECORD, BUT WE HAVE TO END THE
DRUG WAR.
WE HAVE TO END THE PROHIBITION
AGAINST DRUGS.
IT HAS BECOME AN OVERLAY FOR THE
WORST KIND OF POLICE SUCCESSES.
IT HAS TAUGHT GENERATIONS OF
POLICE OFFICERS, AND IT'S
HAPPENED GEOMETRICALLY IN SOME
RESPECTS BECAUSE WE CONTINUE TO
MILITARIZE.
AND NOW THE SERGEANTS AND
LIEUTENANTS WHO KNOW HOW TO DO
POLICE WORK WANT THE GENERATION
TO GO.
THEY'RE TRAINING THE NEW GUYS
COMING IN FOR POLICE WORK.
WE HAVE TO STOP THAT.
>> DEBORAH, TWO ISSUES THERE.
ONE, THE STATE OF MIND OF THE
POLICE, AND TWO, THE IDEA OF
JUST STOPPING THIS WAR ON DRUGS
AND REDUCING THE INCARCERATION
RATE THAT WAY.
PEOPLE ARE GOING TO SAY, YEAH,
THESE PEOPLE WENT TO JAIL, BUT
MAYBE THEY COMMIT THE MOST
CRIMES.
CAN YOU ADDRESS THAT ISSUE
FIRST THEN THE ISSUE IF ALL OF
THIS SPACE WAS LIBERATED AND THE
MONEY WAS LIBERATED, WHERE AM I
GOING TO BE ABLE TO BE
REDIRECTED TO?
>> I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT FOR US
TO THINK ABOUT THE FACT THAT AS
A COUNTRY, WE'VE MADE
PROSECUTING THE DRUG WAR THE
PRIORITY FOR POLICE DEPARTMENTS
ACROSS THE COUNTRY.
ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THAT
MEANS IS THAT MANY POOR
COMMUNITIES, ESPECIALLY POOR
BLACK AND BROWN COMMUNITIES,
SUFFER THE PHENOMENON OF BEING
BOTH OVERPOLICED AND
UNDERPOLICED.
THEY'RE OVERPOLICED FOR DRUGS,
THEY'RE UNDERPOLICED FOR VIOLENT
CRIMES LIKE HOMICIDES AND RAPES
THAT DON'T GET SOLVED AND DON'T
GET TESTED BECAUSE THE POLICE
ARE TOO BUSY GOING AFTER DRUGS.
I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE
THAT IN 2018, THERE WERE 1.6
MILLION DRUG ARRESTS IN THE
UNITED STATES.
BUT 87% OF THOSE ARRESTS WERE
FOR POSSESSION, WHICH MEANS THAT
THEY WERE FOR SMALL AMOUNTS OF
DRUGS.
THERE WAS 663,000 ARRESTS FOR
MARIJUANA.
92% OF THOSE WERE FOR
POSSESSION.
SO WE'RE DEVOTING A TREMENDOUS
AMOUNT OF RESOURCES, BOTH POLICE
RESOURCES AND CORRECTION
RESOURCES, IN ADDRESSING CRIMES
THAT AREN'T EVEN WORTH THE
AMOUNT OF MONEY THAT IT COST US
TO LOCK PEOPLE UP.
WE'RE LITERALLY KEEPING
PEOPLE IN JAILS AND PRISONS FOR
CRIMES THAT THEORETICALLY AMOUNT
TO A FEW HUNDRED DOLLARS ON THE
STREETS AND HAVING THEIR LIVES
RUINED FOREVER.
WHETHER OR NOT A PERSON GOES TO
JAIL FOR A DRUG CRIME, OR TO
PRISON, HAVING A DRUG CONVICTION
CAN AFFECT YOUR ACCESS TO
EMPLOYMENT, TO HOUSING, TO
EDUCATION, TO ALL TYPES OF
BENEFITS.
AND WHY IS IT THAT WE'RE DOING
THAT?
WHY ARE WE NOT USING OUR POLICE
RESOURCES TO GO AFTER THE PEOPLE
WHO ARE JUST SPOILING OUR
ENVIRONMENT, RUINING OUR
ECONOMY?
YOU KNOW, COMMITTING FINANCIAL
CRIMES.
EVEN WITH RESPECT TO DRUGS.
WHEN WE THINK ABOUT DRUG
DEALERS, NOBODY THINKS ABOUT
BANKS, AND YET YOU CANNOT HAVE A
SUCCESSFUL DRUG OPERATION
WITHOUT HAVING BANKERS TO
LAUNDER THE MONEY.
ALMOST EVERY MAJOR AMERICAN BANK
HAS PLED GUILTY IN ONE FORM OR
ANOTHER, ONE TIME OR ANOTHER, TO
HAVING LAUNDERED DRUG MONEY.
BUT THEY HAVEN'T BEEN
PROSECUTED.
THEY'VE BEEN ABLE TO PAY A
LITTLE MONEY IN FINES AND GO ON
ABOUT THEIR BUSINESS.
AT THE SAME TIME, WE HAVE PEOPLE
LANGUISHI ING IN PRISON FOR 10,
12, 20 YEARS, FOR HAVING SOLD
SMALL AMOUNTS OF COCAINE OR
HEROIN.
>> FINALLY, PROFESSOR MUHAMMAD,
ARE YOU HOPEFUL NOW THAT THIS
WHOLE ISSUE, POLICE BRUTALITY,
OBVIOUSLY, IN THE WAKE OF THE
KILLING OF GEORGE FLOYD, AND SO
MANY OTHERS, HAS BECOME SUCH A
BIG POLITICAL ISSUE, WITH AT
LEAST 67% OF THE POPULATION
SUPPORTING THE BLACK LIVES
MATTER MOVEMENT.
DO YOU THINK FROM ALL THAT
YOU'VE STUDIED, GIVEN YOU'VE
WRITTEN ABOUT THIS GOING BACK,
YOU KNOW, AT LEAST SINCE, YOU
KNOW, 1919, WHICH WAS ONE OF THE
FIRST SORT OF PAPERS ON RACE AND
POLICE MALFEASANCE.
DO YOU THINK THINGS COULD CHANGE
NOW?
>> WELL, I HAVE TO BE HOPEFUL,
BUT I ALSO HAVE TO BE A REALIST.
SO MY JOB IS TO MAKE SURE THE
PUBLIC HAS ALL THE INFORMATION
IT NEEDS TO BE WISE AND
INTENTIONAL ABOUT WHAT DIDN'T
HAPPEN IN THE PAST.
AND, THEREFORE, TO MAKE WHAT'S
POSSIBLE IN OUR PAST, PRESENT,
OR DISTANT FUTURE.
THERE'S NO NEED TO SPECULATE
ABOUT HOW POLICE REFORM, ITSELF,
IS GOING TO GET US THERE BECAUSE
POLICE REFORM HAS FAILED FOR
HUNDREDS OF YEARS.
ASKING THE POLICE TO CHANGE ITS
BEHAVIOR IS LIKE ASKING THE FUEL
INDUSTRY TO CHANGE ITS FOSSIL
FUEL PROGRAM.
SO MY JOB AND DEBORAH'S JOB IS
TO MAKE SURE THE PUBLIC HAS
EVERYTHING THEY NEED IN FRONT OF
THEM TO LEARN FROM THE PAST SO
WE CAN ACTUALLY CHART AN
EFFECTIVE FUTURE FOR CHANGE.
>> THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.
>>> NOW TO CORONAVIRUS AND THE
BATTLES TO RE-OPEN SCHOOLS AND
UNIVERSITIES.
FEW HAVE MORE EXPERIENCE WITH
THIS DILEMMA THAN OUR NEXT
GUEST, JANET NAPOLITANO.
FIRST PRESIDENT OF CALIFORNIA'S
SPRAWLING PUBLIC UNIVERSITY
SYSTEM.
SHE WAS ALSO THE FIRST FEMALE
SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY
UNDER PRESIDENT OBAMA.
AMONG OTHER THINGS DEALING WITH
THE OUTBREAK OF THE H1N1 SWINE
FLU.
SHE TALKS TO OUR WALTER ISAACSON
ABOUT WHAT HER UNIVERSITY IS
DOING TO HELP STUDENTS AT THIS
TIME AND WHAT THE WHITE HOUSE
SHOULD BE DOING TO SAVE AMERICAN
LIVES.
>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE, AND
JANET NAPOLITANO, WELCOME TO THE
SHOW.
>> THANK YOU, WALTER.
>> CONGRATULATIONS ON A
SEVEN-YEAR RUN.
YOU'RE LEAVING IN A VERY
DIFFICULT MOMENT.
TELL ME HOW THE CHANGING
SITUATION THIS WEEK ON
CORONAVIRUS IS AFFECTING HOW
YOU'RE GOING TO RE-OPEN THE
UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA'S TEN
CAMPUSES.
>> SO WE'RE ACTUALLY
RE-IMAGINING HOW WE'RE GOING TO
RE-OPEN.
TWO OF OUR CAMPUSES RE-OPEN IN
AUGUST.
THAT'S MERCED AND BERKELEY.
THE OTHERS DON'T OPEN UNTIL THE
END OF SEPTEMBER, SO THEY HAVE A
BIT MORE TIME.
BUT FOR BERKELEY AND MERCED,
WE'RE REALLY HAVING TO GO BACK
AND REVISIT THE DENSITY OF THE
DORMS THAT WILL BE SAFE, REVISIT
THE NUMBER AND TYPES OF CLASSES
THAT CAN BE OFFERED IN PERSON.
I THINK THE BULK OF THE ACADEMIC
PROGRAM WILL BE ONLINE BY
NECESSITY, BUT WE STILL WANT TO
HAVE SOME IN-PERSON CLASSES TO
THE EXTENT THAT WE CAN DO SO
SAFELY.
WE HAD SOME INITIAL PLANS IN THE
BEGINNING OF JULY.
THE RESURGENCE HAPPENS AND YOU
HAVE TO BE AGILE AND FLEXIBLE IN
THESE CIRCUMSTANCES, SO WE'RE
GOING TO GO, LIKE I SAID,
REVISIT WHAT HAD BEEN ORIGINALLY
PLANNED.
>> WHY BRING PEOPLE BACK AT ALL?
>> PARTIALLY BECAUSE THERE ARE
JUST SOME CLASSES THAT ARE
BETTER IN PERSON.
LABORATORY CLASSES, CLASSES THAT
ARE IN THE PERFORMING ARTS OR
THE STUDIO ARTS WHERE THERE IS A
SIGNIFICANT AND UNIQUE VALUE ADD
TO BEING IN PERSON.
AND THEN THE ADVANTAGE OF HAVING
SMALL CLASSES WHERE THERE CAN BE
NOT JUST CLASSROOM INSTRUCTION
BUT FACILITATING THE KIND OF
OFF-CLASS CONVERSATION THAT
REALLY GOES INTO THE UNIVERSITY
EXPERIENCE.
SO THAT'S PART OF IT.
AND IN TERMS OF DORMITORY
LIVING, WE HAVE STUDENTS FOR
WHOM THE DORM IS ACTUALLY THE
BEST PLACE FOR THEM TO LIVE.
THEY MAY NOT HAVE AN ADEQUATE
HOUSING SITUATION OTHERWISE, AND
ALSO WE KNOW THAT DORMITORY LIFE
IS PART OF WHAT YOUNG PEOPLE
WANT OUT OF COLLEGE, OR OUT OF
COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES LIKE
THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA.
SO WE WANT TO FACILITATE THAT TO
THE EXTENT WE CAN.
>> DO YOU GET A LOT OF PUSHBACK
FROM PARENTS WHO SAY, WAIT A
MINUTE, THIS IS NOT WHAT WE
SIGNED UP FOR.
GIVE US OUR MONEY BACK IF YOU'RE
NOT GOING TO TAKE OUR KIDS ONTO
CAMPUS.
>> WELL, WE'VE BEEN SUED A
COUPLE OF TIMES.
WE DID PROVIDE REFUNDS FOR
HOUSING AND DINING LAST SPRING
WHEN WE HAD TO SHUT DOWN RAPIDLY
DUE TO COVID.
IN TERMS OF TUITION, THE WAY WE
VIEW IT IS THAT TUITION IS
REALLY DESIGNED TO PAY FOR THE
FACULTY AND TO PAY FOR THE
DELIVERY OF EDUCATIONAL CONTENT
SO THAT STUDENTS CAN MAKE
PROGRESS TOWARD THEIR DEGREES.
AND IT'S NOT SPECIFICALLY TIED
TO BEING IN PERSON OR ONLINE OR
REMOTE OR WHATEVER YOU WANT TO
CALL IT, BUT WE THINK THE
FUNDAMENTALS FOR WHY TUITION IS
CHARGED AND HOW IT'S CALCULATED
STILL REMAIN, AND SO WE HAVE NO
CURRENT PLANS TO REDUCE TUITION.
>> SHOULD WE USE THIS CRISIS TO
THINK FUNDAMENTALLY THE
FINANCIAL LEVEL FOR HIGHER
EDUCATION?
MAYBE GO ONLINE A WHOLE LOT MORE
OR JUST CHANGE THE NOTION OF
WHAT RESEARCH UNIVERSITIES
SHOULD BE DOING?
>> I THINK THAT DEFINITELY
LESSONS LEARNED IN TERMS OF HOW
WE DO ONLINE INSTRUCTION WILL
NOW BE A PERMANENT PART OF THE
UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA.
BUT I THINK WE SHOULD VIEW THEM
AS A SUPPLEMENT TO AND NOT A
SUBSTITUTE FOR THE RESIDENTIAL
COLLEGE EXPERIENCE.
I THINK WHAT WE'RE LEARNING HERE
IS THAT THERE ARE VALUES TO
BEING A STUDENT AT A RESIDENTIAL
UNIVERSITY, VALUES IN THE SOCIAL
INTERACTIONS BETWEEN STUDENTS
AND STUDENTS AND FACULTY AND
STAFF, THE PARTICIPATION AND
EXTRACURRICULAR ACTIVITIES, THE
ABILITY TO TAKE A CONVERSATION
FROM IN THE CLASSROOM AND KEEP
TALKING WHILE YOU'RE WALKING
DOWN THE HALL TO THE DINING ROOM
AND KEEP IT GOING THERE.
AND THAT VALUE ADD IS SOMETHING
THAT WE SHOULD NOT WANT TO LOSE
AS A COUNTRY.
IT'S A GREAT TIME FOR SOCIAL
MATURATION OF 18- TO
22-YEAR-OLDS BUT, AGAIN, WALTER,
I DO THINK THAT THE PEDAGOGY,
THE WAY WE TEACH, WILL CHANGE IN
LIGHT OF WHAT WE'VE LEARNED
DURING THE COVID CRISIS.
>> YOU ALL, THE CALIFORNIA
SYSTEM AND MANY OTHER
UNIVERSITIES, ARE SUING THE
TRUMP ADMINISTRATION FOR NEW
IMMIGRATION ENFORCEMENT RULES
SAYING THAT FOREIGN STUDENTS
CAN'T HAVE THEIR VISA EXTENDED
IF THEY'RE AT A PLACE THAT'S
DOING MAINLY ONLINE LEARNING.
WHY PUSH BACK ON THAT?
WHY SHOULD THE VISAS BE EXTENDED
IF MOST OF THE LEARNING IS
ONLINE?
>> WELL, BECAUSE INTERNATIONAL
STUDENTS AT THE UNIVERSITY OF
CALIFORNIA, THEY ARE STUDENTS,
BUT THEY'RE ALSO RESEARCH
ASSISTANTS, THEY'RE TEACHING
ASSISTANTS, THEY'RE A VITAL PART
OF THE GRADUATE EDUCATION AT THE
UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, AND
REALLY, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION
RULE WAS AN ILL-CONSIDERED LEVER
TO FORCE COLLEGES TO NOT DO
ONLINE LEARNING AND TO REOPEN AS
IF THE VIRUS DOESN'T EXIST AS IF
WE'RE ALREADY THROUGH THE
PANDEMIC.
THERE WAS NO THOUGHT GIVEN TO
THE ROLE THAT INTERNATIONAL
STUDENTS PLAY IN AMERICAN HIGHER
EDUCATION.
AND IT'S AN IMPORTANT ROLE.
>> YOU AND OTHERS AT THE
UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA HAVE
NOW ENDORSED A PROPOSITION THAT
WILL BE ON CALIFORNIA'S BALLOT
TO REPEAL PROPOSITION 209 WHICH
BANNED AFFIRMATIVE ACTION.
DO YOU THINK WE SHOULD NOW
ESPECIALLY IN THE LIGHT OF
WHAT'S HAPPENED AFTER GEORGE
FLOYD'S DEATH, USED RACE AS
A CONSIDERATION WHEN DETERMINING
WHO GETS ADMITTED TO COLLEGES?
>> I THINK IT SHOULD BE A
CONSIDERATION.
AT THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA,
OUR ADMISSIONS OFFICERS REVIEW A
STUDENT ACCORDING TO 14
DIFFERENT CRITERIA.
THEY WANT TO EVALUATE THE WHOLE
STUDENT.
THEY WANT TO EVALUATE HOW THE
STUDENT WOULD CONTRIBUTE TO THE
UNIVERSITY SHOULD THEY BE
ADMITTED.
THE ONLY THING THEY CAN'T LOOK
TO IS THE STUDENTS' RACE,
GENDER, OR ETHNICITY, WHICH IS A
KEY PART OF A STUDENT'S
IDENTITY.
IT'S SUCH AN ARTIFICIAL
LIMITATION.
SO I HOPE THAT THE BAN ON USING
THOSE FACTORS IS REPEALED BY THE
CALIFORNIA VOTERS IN NOVEMBER.
>> YOU ALSO ARE TRYING TO DROP
THE A.C.T. TESTS, THE S.A.T.
TESTS.
IS THAT SO YOU CAN GET MORE
RACIAL DIVERSITY?
WHAT'S THE REASON FOR DROPPING
STANDARDIZED TESTS LIKE THAT?
>> IT ACTUALLY STARTED WITH A
REQUEST I MADE TO THE FACULTY
BACK IN 2018 TO EVALUATE THE USE
OF THE S.A.T. OR A.C.T. IN UC
ADMISSIONS.
FACULTY CAME BACK, RECOMMENDED
CONTINUED USE OF THE S.A.T. FOR
A PERIOD OF YEARS, DURING WHICH
THE UNIVERSITY WOULD DEVELOP ITS
OWN TEST, ITS OWN TEST DESIGNED
TO MEASURE WHETHER STUDENTS HAVE
MASTERED THE PREPARATORY
COURSEWORK WE REQUIRE OF
APPLICANTS FROM CALIFORNIA TO
THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA.
I LOOKED AT IT, AND THE WAY I
SAW IT WAS WE WERE DOING ALL
THESE THINGS IN OUR ADMISSIONS
PROCESS TO MITIGATE FOR THE
SIMPLE FACT THAT THERE'S THIS
CORRELATION BETWEEN S.A.T. AND A
STUDENT'S, BASICALLY, ZIP CODE,
THE INCOME LEVEL OF THEIR
FAMILIES.
AND WE WERE DOING ALL OF THIS
WORK TO TRY TO, YOU KNOW, ERASE
THAT IMPLICIT BIAS IN THE TEST,
AND THEN IN THE END, THE TEST
DIDN'T GIVE US ALL THAT MUCH
BETTER KNOWLEDGE OF HOW A
STUDENT WOULD DO AT THE
UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA.
SO I JUST THOUGHT, YOU KNOW
WHAT, IT'S JUST TIME TO WEAN
OURSELVES AWAY FROM USE OF THE
S.A.T.
WE'RE NOT GOING TO DO IT ALL IN
ONE FELL SWOOP.
WE'RE GOING TO BE TEST OPTIONAL
FOR TWO YEARS.
MANY UNIVERSITIES ACROSS THE
COUNTRY ARE GOING TO BE TEST
OPTIONAL BECAUSE OF THE
INTERRUPTION CAUSED BY COVID.
TEST OPTIONAL MEANS A STUDENT
CAN SUBMIT A SCORE, BUT IF THEY
DON'T SUBMIT A SCORE, THEY'RE
NOT PENALIZED FOR THAT.
THEN WE'LL BE TWO YEARS TEST
BLIND.
WHAT THAT MEANS IS IF A STUDENT
SUBMITS A SCORE, THE SCORE CAN
BE CONSIDERED FOR SOMETHING LIKE
COURSE PLACEMENT, BUT IT CANNOT
BE USED IN THE ACTUAL ADMISSIONS
DECISION.
THEN BY 2025, WE WON'T USE THE
S.A.T. AT ALL.
>> WHAT ARE THE FUNDAMENTAL,
MORAL AND EDUCATIONAL REASONS TO
TAKE RACE INTO ACCOUNT WHEN
YOU'RE ADMITTING STUDENTS?
>> YOU KNOW, WE'RE A PUBLIC
UNIVERSITY, AND I THINK A PUBLIC
UNIVERSITY HAS A PUBLIC
RESPONSIBILITY TO BE OPEN AND
ACCESSIBLE, TO BE A CREATOR OF
OPPORTUNITY.
AND I THINK WHAT THE COUNTRY IS
RECOGNIZING NOW IN THE WAKE OF
THE MURDER OF GEORGE FLOYD AND
THE PROTESTS THAT HAVE OCCURRED
SINCE THEN IS THAT THE ISSUE OF
RACISM IN OUR COUNTRY, IT'S NOT
GONE AWAY.
IT'S NOT MAGICALLY DISAPPEARED.
IT'S GOING TO REQUIRE SOME FOCUS
AND INTENTIONALITY TO -- FOR OUR
COUNTRY TO MEET ITS ASPIRATIONS
FOR EQUALITY.
AND SO FOR A UNIVERSITY LIKE THE
UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, I
THINK IT MEANS WE HAVE TO MAKE
SPECIAL EFFORT AND RECOGNIZE
THAT RACISM HAS AFFECTED
STUDENTS OF DIFFERENT COLORS AND
CREEDS THROUGHOUT THEIR
UPBRINGING, AND WE NEED TO CUT
THROUGH THAT AND MAKE SURE THAT
OUR STUDENT BODY IS AS DIVERSE
AS IT CAN BE.
>> YOU WERE SECRETARY OF
HOMELAND SECURITY, AND YOU TOOK
ON THE H1N1 FLU EPIDEMIC.
WHAT DID YOU LEARN FROM THAT?
WHAT LESSONS DID YOU LEARN FROM
WHAT LESSONS ARE NOT BEING
LEARNED TODAY?
>> THE NUMBER ONE LESSON, I
THINK, FROM H1N1 IS THE
IMPORTANCE OF CLEAR AND
CONSISTENT SCIENCE-BASED
COMMUNICATION WITH THE PUBLIC SO
THAT THE PUBLIC KNOWS WHAT IT
NEEDS TO DO AND WHAT IT CAN
EXPECT.
MEANING H1N1, THE MEMBERS OF THE
CABINET WHO WERE INVOLVED,
MYSELF, SECRETARY OF
HHS SEBELIUS, SECRETARY OF
EDUCATION, ARNE DUNCAN.
WHEN WE SPOKE WITH THE PRESS, WE
SPOKE ONLY IN TERMS OF WHAT WE
WERE BEING TOLD BY THE CDC, THE
IMPORTANCE OF HANDWASHING AND
HANDWASHING PROPERLY.
THE IMPORTANCE OF COUGHING INTO
YOUR ELBOW.
VERY BASIC TOOLS THAT THE PUBLIC
THEN COULD USE TO ITS OWN
ADVANTAGE.
THE NEXT THING WE LEARNED DURING
H1N WAS THE PLAYBOOK REALLY
MATTERED.
WE WERE ABLE TO ADOPT IT FROM
H1N1, BUT WE DIDN'T HAVE TO
LEARN IT FROM SCRATCH.
I THINK WE LEARNED A LOT ABOUT
VACCINE AND VACCINE MANUFACTURE.
THE FIRST CASE IN THE UNITED
STATES WAS FOUND IN APRIL OF
2009.
BY THE NEXT FALL, WE HAD A
NATIONAL VACCINE CAMPAIGN
UNDER WAY.
WE WERE ABLE TO MOVE VERY, VERY
SWIFTLY THERE, AND THAT WAS
DIFFERENT THAN A CORONAVIRUS
WHICH IS A MUCH MORE DIFFICULT
ORGANISM TO CREATE A VACCINE FOR
THAN H1N1, WHICH WAS A FORM OF
FLU.
BUT NONETHELESS, WE PUT A LOT OF
ENERGY INTO NOT JUST THE
DEVELOPMENT OF THE VACCINE BUT
HAVING A VACCINE DISTRIBUTION
PLAN.
>> WHY CAN'T WE MATCH THE
SUCCESS OF OTHER COUNTRIES THAT
HAVE PRETTY MUCH SUCCESSFULLY
GOTTEN TO VERY LOW NUMBERS?
>> WE HAD THAT OPPORTUNITY.
WE LET IT GO.
WE WERE SLOW TO THE BALL.
WE WERE SLOW TO THE BALL ON
TESTING.
WE WERE SLOW TO THE BALL IN
TERMS OF ESTABLISHING SUPPLY
CHAIN FOR CRITICAL REAGENTS USED
IN TESTING, THINGS LIKE PPE,
PERSONAL PROTECTIVE EQUIPMENT
FOR HOSPITALS.
IT'S STILL CHAOS OUT THERE.
AND WE HAVE BEEN ABSOLUTELY, IN
MY VIEW, MISGUIDED IN TERMS OF
ANY COMMUNICATION COMING FROM
THE WHITE HOUSE IN TERMS OF WHAT
THE COUNTRY SHOULD DO AND WHAT
IS EXPECTED ON THE CITIZENS OF
THIS COUNTRY.
WE ALL HAVE A ROLE TO PLAY HERE.
AND SO THAT CHAOS, THAT LACK OF
LEADERSHIP, HAS HAD A REAL
IMPACT ON OUR PUBLIC HEALTH
RESPONSE.
>> YOU WERE GOVERNOR OF ARIZONA.
THAT STATE IS GETTING WALLOPED
RIGHT NOW.
WHAT'S HAPPENING AND WHAT WENT
WRONG THERE?
>> OH, MY GOSH, YEAH.
I FOLLOW ARIZONA CLOSELY, AND I
THINK THAT'S AN EXAMPLE OF A
STATE THAT NEVER REALLY SHUT
DOWN, AND WHEN IT RE-OPENED
RE-OPENED FAR TOO WIDELY FAR TOO
QUICKLY.
WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE RESURGENCE
OF VIRUS THERE, THE ICU BEDS ARE
AT CAPACITY, THE TRAJECTORY
KEEPS GOING UP.
THAT IS A STATE THAT PROBABLY
SHOULD CONSIDER GOING BACK INTO
SHUTDOWN MODE.
>> GOVERNOR DOUG DUCEY, A
REPUBLICAN.
YOU WERE A DEMOCRATIC GOVERNOR.
HAS THIS BECOME SO PARTISAN THAT
HE HAS NOT EVEN CONSULTED WITH
YOU, OR HAVE YOU BEEN TALKING TO
HIM?
>> I HAVE NOT SPOKEN WITH
GOVERNOR DUCEY, BUT I'LL TELL
YOU, WALTER, THIS IS A PUBLIC
HEALTH CRISIS.
IT SHOULD NOT BE A PARTISAN
HEALTH CRISIS.
AND ONE THING I DO FAULT THE
ADMINISTRATION, THE TRUMP
ADMINISTRATION, FOR IS SEEING
EVERYTHING THROUGH A POLITICAL
LENS.
THIS VIRUS AFFECTS REPUBLICANS
AND DEMOCRATS ALIKE.
YOUR ICU BED CAPACITY DOESN'T
DEPEND ON HOW MANY DEMOCRATS AND
REPUBLICANS ARE IN YOUR STATE.
WEARING A MASK IS A COMMON SENSE
INTERVENTION THAT CAN REALLY
REDUCE THE FREQUENCY OF VIRUS.
HOW THIS GOT WRAPPED INTO
DEMOCRAT VERSUS REPUBLICAN
POLITICS, I THINK HINDSIGHT --
NOT HINDSIGHT, EVEN NOW WILL
TEACH US IS JUST THE WRONG WAY
TO APPROACH IT.
>> ARE YOU BEING VETTED TO BE
JOE BIDEN'S RUNNING MATE IN THIS
ELECTION?
>> NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE, NO.
>> I GUESS YOU WOULD KNOW,
RIGHT?
>> I GUESS I WOULD KNOW, YEAH.
>> JANET NAPOLITANO, THANK YOU
SO MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.
>> THANK YOU, WALTER.
>>> AND FINALLY THE ANONYMOUS
BRITISH STREET ARTIST KNOWN AS
BANKSY HAS A MESSAGE.
IF YOU DON'T MASK, YOU DON'T
GET.
THAT'S THE TITLE OF HIS LATEST
ARTWORK THAT HE SHARED IN THIS
VIDEO ON HIS SOCIAL MEDIA TODAY.
IT SHOWS THE INSURGENT ARTIST
SPRAY PAINTING A TUBE CAR ON THE
LONDON UNDERGROUND WITH HIS
TRADEMARK IMAGES OF RATS
SNEEZING AND SOME WITH MASKS AND
HAND SANITIZER.
ALTHOUGH HE'S ALL COVERED UP,
IT IS THE CLEAREST GLIMPSE OF
B
BANKSY TO DATE.
AN ART INSTALLATION THAT
HIGHLIGHTS THE IMPORTANCE OF
COVERING YOUR FACE.
AND SHOPPERS HERE WILL HAVE TO
WEAR MASKS ENTERING STORES IN
ENGLAND STARTING TEN DAYS FROM
NOW.
WHY THE WAIT, YOU MAY ASK?
THAT'S IT FOR NOW, THOUGH.
REMEMBER YOU CAN FOLLOW ME AND
SHOW ON TWITTER.
THANK YOU FOR WATCHING "AMANPOUR
& CO." ON PBS, AND JOIN US AGAIN
TOMORROW NIGHT.
