MATT BRITTIN: Are you
having a good day?
AUDIENCE: Yes!
MATT BRITTIN: Yeah?
CAROLINE WEBB: Well,
why are you here then?
MATT BRITTIN: A good
day-- we're going
to tell the author what
to put in the book.
A good day is often one
fueled by sunshine, isn't it?
CAROLINE WEBB: Yes.
MATT BRITTIN: So
that's a helpful thing.
So I'm really delighted
to have Caroline here.
Thank you for joining us.
Caroline and I worked together
in a pointy-headed consulting
company many years ago.
I've just about
recovered, I think,
but we'll find out
more in a second.
Caroline's got an amazing
background, initially
as an economist
and a consultant,
and then spend a lot
of time, I think,
working with organizations
on performance.
And we'll learn more about
what she's been doing.
It's great to have
such a big turnout,
and I'd really like to have
quite a lot of this session
with you asking questions about
what you see-- struggling with.
There might be things that
are particular to Google--
for example, being on
a late-night video call
with California.
I struggle to
maintain my energy,
and I'm sometimes cranky.
I read an advance copy of
Caroline's book, and one
of things she talk about in
there is, when you're cranky,
say, you know what?
I'm a bit tired, and I might
be coming across a bit cranky.
Apologies.
And I did that, and it turns
out that was really helpful.
[LAUGHTER]
So I'm now no longer
the grumpy guy.
I'm the guy who's understandably
tired, because it's
midnight in London.
So on that note, Caroline.
CAROLINE WEBB: Fantastic.
MATT BRITTIN: Can I just
start by asking you,
what does a good day look like?
What does a good day look like?
CAROLINE WEBB: Well,
one of the reasons
I wrote the book
was that as you say,
I used to work a
lot with companies
to help them shift their culture
in a more positive direction.
And I found that the best
way to actually find out
what was really going
on under the hood
was often to simply ask
three simple questions.
What's a good day for you?
What does a bad day look like?
And how do you get
more of the good days?
So the book is built around the
things that I heard, obviously.
MATT BRITTIN: What did you hear?
CAROLINE WEBB: So
what did I hear?
I heard we want to
be sure that we're
working on the right things.
We want to be sure that
we are being productive
in pursuit of those priorities.
We want to-- because you
get to the end of the day
and you feel like you've
tackled only the urgent, rather
than the important,
there's a sense of a gap.
And you feel, over time, that
something is really missing.
There's definitely something
about just knocking the ball
out of the park on the tasks.
But there's lots of
different colors to that.
There's the interaction, the
quality of the interaction,
is feeling that you're
at your best-- even,
perhaps, when you're 12 o'clock
on a video conference call.
And then there's
feeling that you're
having impact with everything
that you're saying and doing.
And then there's just the
kind of topping up the tank,
you know?
How do you make sure that
you've got the resilience
to deal with the ups and
downs, and that you've
got the energy to leave
you, at the end of the day,
feeling like you've got a
little bit left in the tank.
So these were the things that
came through again and again
and again.
And it's less about saying,
oh, the job is amazing.
Because of course
you want to be-- you
want to be in a
great job, of course.
But so many people are
in really great jobs,
and the day-to-day
existence is wearing a bit
miserable from time to time.
Stressful.
MATT BRITTIN: Yep.
CAROLINE WEBB: Yeah, so.
MATT BRITTIN: Maybe we
should ask the audience.
What does a good day look like?
What kind of things make
a good day for you guys?
AUDIENCE: Progress.
CAROLINE WEBB: Progress, right.
MATT BRITTIN: Progress.
Making progress.
What else?
AUDIENCE: Good discussion.
CAROLINE WEBB: Good discussion.
AUDIENCE: Work with good people.
MATT BRITTIN: Work
with good people.
Anything else?
AUDIENCE: Fun.
MATT BRITTIN: Have some fun.
That's wasn't on your list.
CAROLINE WEBB: Energy.
MATT BRITTIN: Energy.
CAROLINE WEBB: I
talked about energy.
Yeah, I mean,
people are-- I mean,
Google is very, very fun, right?
So energy, for you,
definitely looks like fun.
Energy at the pointy-headed
management consulting firm
maybe looks a little different.
Just saying.
MATT BRITTIN: So you
spent some time--
and obviously, as you say in
the book, and you just said,
you're kind of asking people
those basic questions.
What's a good day?
What's a bad day?
How could you have
more good days?
It's usually a kind of
coaching approach, I guess.
CAROLINE WEBB: Yes.
MATT BRITTIN:
What, then, led you
to bringing that together with
a bunch of research and science?
CAROLINE WEBB: Well,
I was an economist.
And the reason I'd
gone into economics
is because I thought
it was a human science.
I thought it was a
rigorous way of thinking
about human potential.
And over time, the human bit
of that kind of really faded.
I mean, the work got
more and more technical.
And so I actually
went into consulting
because I wanted to focus
on organizational change.
But I never lost the interest
in an evidence-based approach,
which I guess many of in
the room would also support.
And so much in the field of
human development and coaching
and so on-- there's a little
bit of an arm-waving kind
of feel to it.
And yet there's so
much amazing evidence
that comes out of
neuroscience, psychology,
and behavioral economics.
It often just doesn't make
the leap from the labs
into real life.
And I found that I'd be talking
to a client about why they
might want to think
about how to give
their team a bit more
autonomy, and talking to them
about the psychological research
on the importance of autonomy
as a motivating
force, would do more
to shift their micromanaging
behavior than any staff survey
results.
Understanding the science
and the rigor underneath it.
So over time, I just
realized that there
was a huge opportunity to help
people embrace changes which
were going to make them more
effective-- and happier,
frankly.
MATT BRITTIN: That might be
one of the reasons I found
the book interesting,
is as Googlers,
we're all about
understanding the facts.
CAROLINE WEBB: Yeah.
MATT BRITTIN: And I
think there is sometimes,
you feel that coaching
and some of the things you
read about how to perform
well are a bit, as you said,
arm-wavy.
That's a good phrase.
But you've drawn on psychology.
You've drawn on
behavioral economics.
You've drawn on neurology.
Can you tell us a bit more about
what they call, technically,
"the science bit"?
CAROLINE WEBB: Yeah.
I mean, these are
all disciplines
that basically look at
how and why we think,
feel, and behave as we do.
And actually, all three
of those disciplines
have parts which
don't focus on that.
So I look at the
behavioral neuroscience,
the behavioral psychology,
and the behavioral economics.
I mean, the boundaries
between the three
are very, very blurry, if anyone
is in this space in this room.
I have a friend called Molly
who-- she's a neuroscientist.
I mean, there's no doubt
she's a neuroscientist.
But she works on topics
that are very focused
on areas that psychologists have
explored for years-- altruism.
And yet she also has worked
in behavioral economics labs.
So she introduces
herself sometimes
as a behavioral economist.
So there's this sort
of mass of people
who are just interested in
really explaining why you might
feel tired at 12:00 PM on a
video conference call, why that
might make you feel grumpy.
MATT BRITTIN: I'm quite
grumpy normally, but--
CAROLINE WEBB: Are you?
MATT BRITTIN: But
even more grumpy.
CAROLINE WEBB: No you're not.
MATT BRITTIN: Yep, that's true.
It's all a front.
CAROLINE WEBB: No.
MATT BRITTIN: OK.
So let's just introduce
some of the concepts,
and I think people will be
familiar with some of them.
We'll maybe go from there
to how you apply them.
The two-system brain.
CAROLINE WEBB: Yes.
MATT BRITTIN: What is that?
CAROLINE WEBB: So we have lots
of systems in the brain that
interact, lots and lots.
And actually, a
systemic approach
to describing the
way the brain works
is much more the way
that neuroscientists now
talk about the
brain, rather than
a specific piece of the brain
doing one specific task.
There's almost no part of
the brain where you can say,
this part of the
brain does this.
So we take a systemic
approach these days.
And two big
systems-- the names I
give them are deliberate
system and automatic system.
So the deliberate
system is the part
of the brain that's responsible
for you listening to us right
now.
So it's conscious attention.
It's conscious reasoning.
It's self-control.
It's what's stopping you
from standing up and saying,
I don't agree!
Or frowning when
you're actually trying
to be really positive
in a conversation.
It's emotional self-regulation.
It is also planning
and forward thinking.
So it's all the grown-up
stuff, basically.
The problem is that it's
quite limited in capacity.
So it can only do
one thing at a time.
It's comparatively slow.
MATT BRITTIN: Can I check?
So is it true that it can
only do one thing at a time?
CAROLINE WEBB: Yes.
MATT BRITTIN: So multitasking
is multi-failing, is it?
CAROLINE WEBB: Multi-failing.
I wish I'd spoken to you
before I wrote the book.
That's a good phrase.
Yeah, multi-failing.
MATT BRITTIN: The
second edition.
CAROLINE WEBB: Yeah.
[LAUGHTER]
So, yeah.
So the brain.
So the conscious, deliberate
system can only single-task.
MATT BRITTIN: And that
applies in both genders?
Just to check.
CAROLINE WEBB: Yeah,
you know, that often--
[LAUGHTER]
That often comes up.
Yes, absolutely.
MATT BRITTIN: Yeah?
CAROLINE WEBB: Yeah.
MATT BRITTIN:
That's good to know.
CAROLINE WEBB: And-- and
there's fascinating research
that suggests the more confident
you are that you can multitask,
the worse you are at it.
Because you've
lost-- yeah, I know.
Because you're all
thinking, you're
sitting there thinking,
yeah, but I'm the exception.
I'm the exception.
And actually, there's
some evidence out there
on supertaskers.
There are a few people
whose brains are different.
But I-- I never like mentioning
it, because as soon as you do,
a bunch of people in an
audience like this think,
yeah, I'm a supertasker.
[LAUGHTER]
But the truth is it's a really
small proportion of people.
It's a tiny, tiny proportion.
And for most of us
in this room, when
we try to do more than
one thing at once,
our deliberate system is
actually switching attention
from one thing to another.
It's doing it so fast,
you didn't realize it,
but in those switches, you
lose time and mental energy.
Which is why you actually are
slower in performing a task,
and you make between two and
four times as many errors
when you multitask.
So, yes.
Where were we?
MATT BRITTIN: So we were talking
about the two-system brain.
CAROLINE WEBB:
Deliberate system.
MATT BRITTIN: I wanted us
to talk a bit about that,
and then what implications
it has-- yeah.
So what's the other one?
The reptile one?
CAROLINE WEBB: So
the automatic system.
Well, it's not just that.
I mean, it's the unsung
hero, because we're not
conscious of it.
So by definition, it's below
the level of our consciousness.
And it's doing so much
to lighten the load
on the deliberate system.
It's filtering out most
of what you see and hear
around you, to make sure that
your deliberate system, which
can only process
part of reality,
only gets to see or
hear part of reality.
Which means the automatic
system is editing everything
that you experience.
MATT BRITTIN: So
this is the thing--
those who've seen
the video on YouTube,
where you're asked to count
the number of ball passes.
Have you seen this one?
And at the end of
the video, it says,
so did you see the gorilla?
CAROLINE WEBB: Yeah.
MATT BRITTIN: If you
haven't done that,
it's really worth doing.
That's what's going on there--
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
CAROLINE WEBB: That's what's
going on all the time, in fact.
So there's another
study, which is
an homage to that study, which
had a bunch of radiologists
at Harvard go through
a stack of lung scans.
Sadly, genuine lung scans.
And their job is to
spot abnormalities.
On the last of the
lung scans, there
was a picture of
a gorilla printed.
How many of the radiologists
saw the gorilla?
AUDIENCE: Zero?
CAROLINE WEBB: Well,
it's not far off.
83% of the radiologists
did not see the gorilla,
even though eye-tracking devices
showed that they look directly
at it, and even though the
gorilla was 44 times the size
of the average lung nodule.
Why did they not
see the gorilla?
Because the automatic
system decides
what to filter out based
on what you've decided
is already important,
what's top-of-mind for you.
So whatever you've
decided is your priority,
your aim, whatever is your
attitude or your assumptions,
will shape what you see
and hear consciously.
Head explodes moment, right?
I mean, this means
that you are all
experiencing only part of
reality at any given time.
MATT BRITTIN: I've
started to lose it.
[LAUGHTER]
So--
CAROLINE WEBB: Stay focused.
Stay focused.
MATT BRITTIN: So there's
an awful lot of science,
and some of it quite
recent, I think,
around understanding
those things.
But what are the implications
of that particular body
of work for how we understand
how to have a good day?
CAROLINE WEBB: Yeah.
Yeah.
And I suppose this
is what I try to do.
This research has been out
there for quite a long time.
But the implications are
quite practical and quite real
for us.
It means that if we
take a moment before--
and it really only has
to be like five seconds--
before we go into a meeting or
a conversation, or even a task,
and say, OK, what's
most important to me?
What really matters in this?
Check in with your attitude
and your assumptions,
because you know that's
going to shape your reality.
And then decide, well, what do
I really want to notice in this?
So imagine you go
into a conversation
with someone you think
is a bit of a jerk.
I mean, I know that would
never happen here, right?
Imagine you're going into a
conversation with someone who
you think is going to be
a bit grumpy, let's say.
And, yeah, well.
And you know that
going in and assuming
they're going to be
a jerk means you're
going to see everything that
confirms that they are a jerk.
If you decide to notice every
opportunity for collaboration,
or sign that they are
actually a human being,
you'll see and experience
the conversation differently.
So that's what I call
setting intentions,
because you have to give
these things a label.
That's the label I give it.
MATT BRITTIN: Now setting
intentions and that concept,
is it confirmation
bias, where you're
expecting to see something,
and therefore you
pick up all the instances?
Just like when you hear a
word for the first time,
and it suddenly seems to be--
CAROLINE WEBB:
Everywhere, exactly.
Absolutely.
And the umbrella term
for the fact that we only
perceive part of reality
is selective attention,
for those of you who
like this sort of thing.
Selective attention.
And there are a bunch
of different biases
that sit underneath it--
inattentional blindness,
confirmation bias,
being two of them.
MATT BRITTIN: And then
another concept-- so we've
got the two-system brain and
the neurology behind that.
Another system-- the
concept you talk about
is defending and discovering.
CAROLINE WEBB: Yes.
MATT BRITTIN: What is all that?
CAROLINE WEBB: So you know
when you're freaking out
and you're not
thinking as clearly?
That's that.
I mean, that's essentially
what we're talking about.
So our brains-- the
automatic system,
apart from filtering
out reality so
that our deliberate
system doesn't
crash in the face of all
the information around us,
it also keeps us safe.
And one of the ways it does
that, it has a system which
responds to threats.
And what happens is
that it perceives
a threatening
environment, it launches
something which
you probably know
of as a fight-or-flight
response.
It turns out there's also
a freeze response, which
is where you're kind of trying
to figure out what's going on.
And when you do
that, when you're
in that defensive mode, when
your brain is responding
to keep you safe, it's diverting
some attention, some energy,
from your prefrontal cortex to
this basic defensive response.
So the result is, as
you're faced with a threat,
you're actually getting
slightly dumber,
even when the threat is as small
as having your toes trodden
on a little bit, or being
faced with a task that just
feels a bit insurmountable.
So if we can become a lot
more attuned to when we're
in defensive mode and have a
few tricks to get ourselves out
of defensive mode,
we make ourselves
smarter when we really need to.
MATT BRITTIN: So I found
this really interesting
in the context of work.
Because you're often
in a situation,
in a meeting or something,
where you feel, whoa.
I haven't got credit
for what I've done,
or they don't understand.
CAROLINE WEBB: Yeah.
MATT BRITTIN: And you can
see yourself going into it.
When you're conscious
of it, you can see
yourself going into that mode.
And you're saying then,
you're getting dumber.
CAROLINE WEBB: Yeah.
It's a shame, right?
Because it's often at
the moment you most need
to rise to the challenge.
MATT BRITTIN: So what can I
do when I'm in that situation?
This is me, midnight.
CAROLINE WEBB:
Hypothetically, yeah.
MATT BRITTIN: There's 15
people at the other end.
They're all joking and
they're not paying attention
to what I need to get done.
CAROLINE WEBB: Yeah.
Well, I think there's
one thing generally
that you can do in meetings
and conversations, which
is to say-- and it's a really
super quick way of getting out
of defensive mode,
is to say, what's
the ideal situation here?
And what's my first
step towards that?
So if you're feeling
underappreciated,
it's just having to go-to
question in your pocket.
Like, OK, what do I really
want to have happen here?
What's the ideal situation?
And what's the smallest
first step towards that?
I think that really helps.
I think another
general thing I would
say about getting yourself
out of defensive mode
is if you can sprinkle a
few rewards around yourself,
then that is a very
good way of engaging--
MATT BRITTIN: What
is that, chocolates?
What do you mean?
CAROLINE WEBB:
Well, do you know,
it kind of-- so the reward
system does respond to food
and other very physical--
MATT BRITTIN: This is the
other end from defend.
This is now into discovering.
CAROLINE WEBB: Right.
So this is discovery mode.
So this is where your brain
is more focused on rewards
than it's focused on threats.
So rewards-- of course, yes.
I mean, chocolate
is-- it stands there.
MATT BRITTIN: That works.
CAROLINE WEBB: Yes.
But obviously in
the work context,
more profound rewards
are more powerful.
So thinking about
the fact that we
are very social animals, a sense
of connection and belonging
is very rewarding to us.
Thinking about the fact that
we're intellectual animals,
a sense of interest and
novelty is very powerful.
So a great question, to give
yourself one of those rewards,
is to say, what can
I learn from this?
When you're in that moment,
what can I learn from this?
It stimulates the neurochemistry
or reward by saying, OK,
I'm going to find something
interesting in this.
And just by doing
that, you can often
do enough to pull yourself
out of defensive mode.
MATT BRITTIN: Oh, definitely.
For me, anyway, being
aware when that's happening
is really helpful.
CAROLINE WEBB: Yeah.
MATT BRITTIN: I can say, OK, I
can see what's happening here.
I'm getting dumber.
I need to stop.
But then also when you're in the
position of sometimes putting
somebody, inadvertently,
in a defensive position,
you can try to pull them out
of it by offering a reward.
I've noticed people doing this.
There's people
here, in meetings,
who are really good
at saying, yeah,
you know, Matt made a
great point earlier,
and blah, blah, blah.
I've no idea what point I
made, but I just feel good.
CAROLINE WEBB: Absolutely.
Absolutely.
MATT BRITTIN: And so
I'm like, great, yeah,
I'm going to agree with that.
CAROLINE WEBB: Another category
of rewards is absolutely--
MATT BRITTIN: It's
true, isn't it?
CAROLINE WEBB: --making
people feel good.
MATT BRITTIN: It works.
CAROLINE WEBB: It
really does work.
It works because another
category of rewards
is sort of about
our self-respect.
And big things that sit
under that-- competence.
Autonomy.
Having a sense that you
know what you're doing,
and you've got space to do it.
So, absolutely.
Showing appreciation is
one of the quickest ways
of getting someone
out of defensive mode
and into what I
call discovery mode.
MATT BRITTIN: Yeah.
Anybody who's a
parent will know that.
CAROLINE WEBB: Yeah, yeah.
Well done.
Well done.
MATT BRITTIN: That was great.
CAROLINE WEBB: That was great.
MATT BRITTIN: Now
put your shoes on.
[LAUGHTER]
And then the third piece-- so
we had the discover and defend,
the two-system brain.
The third piece that
you make great play of
is really the connection
between our mind and our body.
And again, sort of
obvious, but you kind of
expect, somehow, at work
to be able to perform fine
regardless of sleep
and exercise and so on.
Well, that's what this is about.
CAROLINE WEBB: Absolutely.
So I think we all know
that when we're underslept,
we're not as smart.
And I think we know that
it's hard to be witty when
we're-- when we're
short of sleep.
We know, in some sense,
that there is a connection.
But we so often
treat our bodies as
if they're just kind of
nice-looking containers
for our brain.
You know, that maybe
we look after ourselves
purely for aesthetic reasons.
And actually, the evidence is
just mounting, year after year,
on just how-- so for
example, you're a sportsman.
It turns out you don't
have to be a rower in order
to get the cognitive
benefits of exercise.
20 minutes is enough.
20 minutes of aerobic
activity of some sort.
Oh, but it turns out,
actually, even 10 minutes
is going to boost your
focus and attention
and your emotional resilience.
Oh, it turns out, actually,
you can break it up
into even smaller chunks.
So the research is becoming
very, very encouraging
for people-- you
know, busy people who
find it hard to fit this
stuff into their days.
MATT BRITTIN: And it can be
as simple as just getting
up and walking
around, not having
meetings that last
more than 45 minutes
or an hour, that kind of thing?
CAROLINE WEBB: Yes, I
love that, by the way.
So I have been
advocating for quite a
while this idea of
setting meetings
that are shorter than hour or
shorter than the half-hour.
And I just saw recently that you
have the Speedy Meetings that's
now in Google Calendar.
I mean, hats off.
MATT BRITTIN: It
books short meetings.
Doesn't mean to say the meetings
end up-- it's all nudge,
I think.
CAROLINE WEBB: Yeah, it is
a very, very helpful nudge.
Because what we also know about
the deliberate system is that
it-- it gets better
at taking decisions
when it's had a break.
So the longer that it is
since you've had a break,
the less good the quality of
your choices and decisions are.
That's been shown with judges
sitting on a parole board.
It's been shown with--
MATT BRITTIN: So
you're better off
going before the judge
earlier in the day, are you?
CAROLINE WEBB: Definitely.
MATT BRITTIN: OK.
CAROLINE WEBB: I mean, just
in case that's ever relevant.
MATT BRITTIN: Could be useful.
CAROLINE WEBB: And if
you've got a big day--
MATT BRITTIN: That's
certainly my job.
CAROLINE WEBB: If you've
got a big decision
that you need to make,
make it after a break,
rather than before a break.
If you need any reminding that
taking breaks is important,
remember that your
brain is doing
a lot of encoding
and consolidation
in the period where it
steps away from a task.
Downtime is not laziness.
Downtime is actually like a
pit stop for a racing car.
MATT BRITTIN: And is
it real, the notion
that I get all my best
ideas when I'm in the bath,
or when I'm walking or
cycling, that kind of thing?
CAROLINE WEBB: No, it is real.
I think there's a lot of, still,
research into exactly what goes
on, something called the default
mode network in the brain.
I said there were
lots of systems.
So everybody in neuroscience
it interested in the fact
that there is this part of the
brain that is active when we're
not apparently doing anything.
There's definitely
plenty of evidence
to suggest that when people
step away from a task
and then return to it, we
come back with fresh insight.
So I have a waterproof
pad in the shower-- which,
I know, I'm probably revealing
too much. anyway, there we are.
I have a waterproof pad in
the shower because that time--
MATT BRITTIN: That's where
the ideas come to you.
CAROLINE WEBB: That
liminal space, yeah.
MATT BRITTIN: Liminal?
What does that mean?
CAROLINE WEBB: In
between things.
Yes.
MATT BRITTIN: Spaces
in between things.
OK, that sounds good.
And then, so taking all
of these things together,
and all the observation of all
the kind of crazy organizations
that you've worked
in, you've sort of
tried to draw out some
general tips, ideas, thoughts,
on how we can have a better day.
So what are the key concepts?
You've mentioned
some, but tell us
a bit more about-- you
know, what's the toolkit?
CAROLINE WEBB: Well,
I always struggle
when people ask me that.
Because I did try
to make this book
a book that covers everything.
So there are so many tips and so
many pieces of advice in there.
I do think that this setting
intentions thing is really
at the foundation.
Because if you can shape the way
that reality feels, you know,
that's pretty great.
I mean, it can change the way
that every conversation feels.
MATT BRITTIN: Can you
give us a sort of story
or an example of that?
Just bring that to life.
So what does that mean?
CAROLINE WEBB: Yeah,
well, actually, this
might involve someone you know.
I don't know whether
you knew him or not.
So the time that this
came home to me was-- I
had a meeting-- I was
on a project I didn't
want to be on, basically.
I don't know if any
of you have ever had
that situation happen to you.
I was on a project that I
knew was a good thing to do,
but I wasn't excited about it.
And I was working alongside
a colleague called Lucas.
I call him Lucas.
And he was gung-ho
about the project.
And he was, if you
can picture, kind
of tall, wiry,
German, well-dressed.
Very excited.
And it was the first day that
we were meeting the clients.
And we were in this long,
dark room with low ceilings,
but less pleasant
than this, obviously.
And it was a video
conference room.
And I realized that the
clients weren't even there.
They were on-screen.
It was a kick-off
meeting with the clients,
but they were actually
not even in the room.
I was grumpy about being there.
I thought it was a
terrible, terrible set-up
to start the project.
And I struggled, I have to say.
I thought it was a bad meeting.
I saw lots of people frowning,
lots of kind of disagreements.
And I thought it was such
a bad meeting that I really
felt like I had to
call it out and speak
to Lucas about this terrible
start to the project.
And when I did that, I had this
really strange conversation.
And it basically went like this.
I thought that was
a terrible meeting.
This, this, this,
then this happened.
I don't know what you're
talking about, Caroline.
This, this, this,
and this happened.
He'd seen progress.
He'd seen smiles.
He even reminded me of times
that people had laughed.
I had no recollection of it.
I mean, none.
I mean, we had
different personalities,
so there was a little
bit of that, but no.
It was-- it was a
huge eye-opener.
And it was actually
after that I really
started thinking about applying
the science, to actually--
what would it
actually look like,
to think about
selective attention?
MATT BRITTIN: So the
smiles and all that,
that was the gorilla for you.
CAROLINE WEBB: That
was the gorilla.
MATT BRITTIN: You were
looking for all the negative.
CAROLINE WEBB: I was looking
for all the negativity.
I was looking for every
frown, every confirmation
that I was right, that this
was a terrible idea, probably
a dumb project, and by the way,
could I have some more coffee?
You know?
Yeah.
So that was actually a
big wake-up call for me.
MATT BRITTIN: And so
given that experience,
what would you have
done differently?
What do you do differently now?
CAROLINE WEBB: Yeah, so
what I do differently
is I do this little routine.
I mean, I would've
said my real aim here
is to make a contribution to
the warmth and connection that's
possible here.
Because I was being
put on the project
because I do all
the people stuff.
MATT BRITTIN: They
used to have people
who only did people stuff,
because everybody else was so
bad with people, didn't they?
Remember that?
CAROLINE WEBB: That's right.
And I'm an economist, right?
So I was being put on
there as the people person.
So, yeah.
I should've refocused.
I would have refocused, and I
did, in subsequent meetings.
My aim here is to
bring what's missing.
I would have checked in-- and I
do check in-- with my attitude.
If I'm really
grumpy, I check in.
I say, OK, is this
going to serve me?
Because it is going to
shape what I experience.
And I say, mmm, no.
Can I park it?
Is there a way of
challenging any assumptions?
And the assumption would
have been to challenge,
it's a terrible way to
set up a client project
to have a video conference.
But yeah, but maybe we would
have taken a month longer
to meet in person.
MATT BRITTIN: Yeah.
CAROLINE WEBB: I mean, it
seems obvious now, right?
But if you come in
with a certain mindset,
you perceive everything
in a certain light.
So now, every day, I mean,
before I come on stage,
I think, OK, what
really matters?
You know, where am I at?
What do I want to notice?
And the thing I
probably do most often
is when I'm feeling a bit
stressed, if I'm on my way
into work, I'll say, OK,
let me notice two or three
good things.
Because then once
that's top-of-mind,
then I'll see more.
So that's a really good
way of resetting your mood.
MATT BRITTIN: That's
really interesting.
OK, so I want to come to
you, and have any questions
or thoughts?
Or like therapy, like
any little things.
I feel like I'm in therapy
now, so I'm slightly--
CAROLINE WEBB: You can talk
about a friend's situation,
if you want to.
MATT BRITTIN: But
while you think
about that, another
thing that struck
me is this concept
you have of sort
of assuming the best of
people in situations.
CAROLINE WEBB: Oh, yeah.
MATT BRITTIN: I talk a lot
about this with our teams.
It's very easy in our
organization, which
is multifunctional
and multifaceted,
to just go, oh, if only
those guys over there
could get their shit
together, then I'd be fine.
And why on Earth
are they doing that?
They must be idiots.
And then you sort of have to
remind yourself-- and we remind
each other-- that actually,
everybody's good and smart,
and they're probably doing
that with good intention.
CAROLINE WEBB: Yeah,
well-intentioned.
MATT BRITTIN: The impact
on you might be different.
So just talk about
how to handle that.
CAROLINE WEBB: Yeah,
that's a good point.
So there's something
in psychology
called a fundamental
attribution error.
It's a great title.
I mean--
MATT BRITTIN: Fundamental--
I'm going to write that down.
Fundamental attribution error.
CAROLINE WEBB: Yes.
It's often capitalized, as well.
Fundamental Attribution Error.
So remember your
deliberate system
doesn't have much capacity.
Remember that your
automatic system
is trying to keep things
simple as much as possible.
One of the biggest
simplifications it makes
is it says, OK, if you're
not getting stuff done today,
it's simpler for me to assume
that you're just no good
than it is to say, I wonder
what might be going on with her?
It takes less mental energy.
So the fundamental attribution
error describes the phenomenon
that when we aren't
firing on all cylinders,
we think about the situation
and the circumstances that's
created that.
When we see someone else who's
not firing on all cylinders,
we say, OK, you're no good.
And it's simple, but it's
also easy to challenge,
which is just simply
to say-- the phrase I
use is, "Good person;
bad circumstances."
It's to get into the habit,
when you see someone who's
doing something
dysfunctional or isn't where
you want them to be,
is to say, OK, good
person; bad circumstances.
Which looks, in practice,
like-- what on Earth
could be creating this?
And you can have
some fun with it.
Because the story
that you make up
doesn't even have
to be true to shift
your behavior towards them.
Which is likely,
then, to not put
them so much on the
defensive, which
will improve their behavior.
You get into a nice
virtuous circle.
MATT BRITTIN: That
sounds intriguing.
So tell me, what's a story
you make up about somebody?
Without being too revealing.
CAROLINE WEBB: No,
I mean, if you're
dealing with someone
who's really difficult,
then thinking about, I
wonder what kind of childhood
they had?
And having some fun
with that, you know?
What can possibly have
created this attention
to the font size on this slide?
What happened to
them in school at 11?
And as soon as you start
thinking about that,
you've got a slight
smile on your face,
and then you're feeling
better about-- you know,
you're chuckling to yourself
about some teacher throwing
a pen at their
head or something.
And then your demeanor shifts.
And then you end up
in a different place,
because they're less--
Because if you're
aggravated, you're
going to put them on
the defensive, which
will mean that all
of the functions
of their deliberate
system will decline.
So self-control,
thinking-- they'll
become dumber and less
nice to be around.
MATT BRITTIN: So by
assuming the best,
you can help other people
be their best, as well.
CAROLINE WEBB: Yeah.
And that does sound
a Pollyanna-ish.
I mean, I have had people
say, oh, you're just trying
to say that everyone's amazing.
I'm not.
MATT BRITTIN: So how
do you have to have
these kind of situations
where somebody's showing up
and-- what were you saying?
Good person; bad circumstances?
How many times does that
happen before you go,
actually, bad person.
Good person; bad circumstances.
Good person; bad circumstance.
Good person; bad circumstance.
Oh, fundamentally, they're bad.
CAROLINE WEBB: You know what?
Whatever.
Yeah.
So actually, there is a
section in the book for that.
MATT BRITTIN: Oh?
CAROLINE WEBB: What
I say is sometimes
it takes too much effort
to dig the good out.
And there does
come a point where
it's helpful to just
minimize your exposure.
And if you can't do that, then
to think systematically about,
how do you reduce the
sense of threat to them?
You know, what are
the ways that you
can make them feel more
competent, more autonomous?
And you do this with people
who are senior to you, right?
How do you make them feel good?
How do you make sure that
you're being super clear
so that-- uncertainty is a
threat to most people's brains.
How do you minimize uncertainty?
So there are a number of
really quite tactical things
you can then flip into.
MATT BRITTIN: If you have
somebody who you're stuck with,
who you just have a sort
of fundamental underlying
problem with,
you're saying, like,
manage that as best you can.
CAROLINE WEBB: Yes, absolutely.
And there's lots that
we know about reducing
a sense of threat.
And as I say, there's
basically a list,
a checklist you can go down.
MATT BRITTIN:
That's in the book.
CAROLINE WEBB: It
is, apparently, yeah.
MATT BRITTIN: Anybody any
questions, suggestions,
scenarios, or advice
that they need?
If you can take the
mic, then great.
If not, just shout out.
AUDIENCE: Hi.
CAROLINE WEBB: Hello.
AUDIENCE: Based on what
you said about multitasking
and how we can't really do
that, what are your thoughts,
or do you have any data,
on people's effectiveness
in meetings where
nowadays, everyone's
got a laptop and a
phone, and sort of
doing multiple things
at the same time.
Is that working?
Or is it--
CAROLINE WEBB: No,
it really doesn't.
And there's a challenge,
because a lot of people,
and I'm sure many of you, like
to take notes on your devices.
If you-- I mean, I'm a
great fan of airplane mode.
I've long been a fan
of using technology
to deal-- to improve our
relationship with technology.
You know, I did a podcast
earlier on this week
where the discussion
was exactly that.
Is technology bad?
And I was like, no,
technology is neutral.
Every time technology
advances, like the post office,
and the phone, and even back
as far as the printing press,
people say, oh my goodness,
this is disastrous.
It's going to ruin our
relationships and our ability
to concentrate.
But then what happens
is that we get better.
We learn how to
use the technology.
So I think that if
people are in meetings,
it is really helpful to have
them close their laptops.
If they do want to
take notes on a device,
to put it on airplane mode.
I actually have a-- I use
a smartphone daycare box--
or smartphone creche, in
the UK-- which I invite
people to put their phones in.
I was running a
workshop on Tuesday
where I just put this box, and
I wrote "Smartphone Daycare."
And the people afterwards
said, we didn't put our phones
in the box, but it
gave us the prompt
to just leave them in our bags.
MATT BRITTIN: Interesting.
CAROLINE WEBB: And it was
enough to just remind people
that there was a different
quality of conversation that
was going to happen if we
weren't constantly distracted.
MATT BRITTIN: Yeah.
How much more stupid do we get
when we're trying to multitask?
CAROLINE WEBB: Well, between two
and four times as many errors
is pretty bad, right?
MATT BRITTIN: Two to four
times as many errors?
CAROLINE WEBB: Yes.
Yeah.
MATT BRITTIN: Wow.
OK, that's interesting.
CAROLINE WEBB: Yes.
AUDIENCE: So I know Caroline.
I've been at some of these
workshops she's talking about,
so I've employed a lot
of these techniques.
It's good to refresh myself.
I wondered if you could
talk about authenticity
a little bit, and transparency.
Because I think we
all-- a lot of us
strive to be very authentic
in our leadership.
And yet some of these things
can seem a little bit cerebral.
And so when you're having
these interactions,
how do you kind of
balance out wanting
to be authentic
with sort of doing
all this microprocessing in your
head about what's happening?
MATT BRITTIN: Good question.
CAROLINE WEBB: It's
a good question.
I think whenever we stretch
ourselves to do something new,
there's something
about that that feels
inauthentic-- by definition.
As soon as you try a new
technique, or a new way
of running a meeting, or a
new way of planning a project,
it feels a bit--
mm-- uncomfortable.
And when we were
kids and we were
trying to learn to
ride a bike, we pedaled
and we pedaled and we fell of.
We pedaled and we
pedaled and we fell off.
We kept on trying
until it worked out.
In the days before
the fact that you
could get song lyrics
on the internet,
you used to try and
learn the song lyrics.
You're way too young to know
what I'm talking about, but--
MATT BRITTIN: I remember that.
CAROLINE WEBB: You
remember, yeah.
And you're like, you're
listening, you're listening,
and you're trying
to write it down.
The persistence we had as kids
was gorgeous and remarkable.
And everything we know
about neuroplasticity
suggests that
repetition really is
what strengthens neural pathways
associated with a new behavior.
So there's a little bit
of that moment where
you're trying
something new and it
is going to feel inauthentic,
because it's new.
And I suppose what I would say
is at that point, stay focused
on your good intentions.
Don't worry if it
doesn't work out
the first time-- or the
second time or the third time.
Ask yourself the
rewarding question,
which is, what am I
learning from this?
What am I learning from this?
And the rewarding
question, which
is what's working about this?
And what can I do
more of next time?
So I suppose I'm encouraging you
to hold that space where things
feel a bit inauthentic
and know that that's
part of the learning
process of any sort.
MATT BRITTIN: That's fantastic.
Because basically, you're
saying we're all developing,
and therefore you're always
going to be trying new things.
CAROLINE WEBB: Yeah.
And I think everyone
in this room
is the sort of person who
wants to learn new things.
And there is that
sort of discomfort
when you're out of
your comfort zone.
And I believe that
the sorts of questions
that you can ask yourself
about, what am I learning,
what worked about
that, helps you not
to get into your terror zone.
MATT BRITTIN: Terror zone.
Anybody else?
Any other questions?
[INAUDIBLE]
AUDIENCE: Hi.
Thanks very much.
So a lot of what
you talk about is
what we can do as individuals.
And I wondered if
you had top tips,
when you were talking to either
teams or even organizations,
of what the top tips for
a group are, basically.
CAROLINE WEBB: Yeah.
It's a really great question.
I did write about
the individual,
because I do think that it's
very hard to be a great leader
unless you're managing yourself
as effectively as you're
managing your teams
and your organizations.
I quite strongly
believe that all
of the techniques that
we're talking about today
can be used with teams.
It does take a
little bit of a step
to decide that you're going
to run a meeting, perhaps
which you run every week,
in a slightly different way,
and thinking, oh
everyone's going
to say, why are we
starting by talking
about what the
ideal is, and what
the steps are towards that?
We just need to fix the problem.
But I strongly believe that
all of these techniques
can be applied.
In fact, they become much
stronger and much more powerful
when they become team norms.
And I think you guys
are very experimental.
You're willing to
try new things,
and you're known for being very
exploratory in figuring out
what can help people
be at their best.
So I would encourage you to
try these things in your teams,
to see what changes in the
quality of the discussions
that you have.
MATT BRITTIN: That's great.
Other questions or thoughts?
So I have a question
about productivity,
just as Dave's trying to make
his way to the microphone.
You talk about
productivity in the book.
We haven't really
touched on that.
How can we all be
more productive,
apart from not multitasking.
CAROLINE WEBB: Single tasking!
MATT BRITTIN: Single
tasking's the best thing?
CAROLINE WEBB: Oh, it's--
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
MATT BRITTIN: But there's
also-- you mentioned something
about the sort of switching
costs between tasks,
as well, which is interesting.
So like doing batches
rather than doing
individual emails,
that kind of thing.
CAROLINE WEBB: I think
as far as you-- yeah,
that's another good point.
So when we're talking
about single-tasking--
we've talked, so far, about
going offline, staying offline.
But actually,
there's another way
that you can reduce
the switching costs.
You really have read the book.
This is wonderful.
MATT BRITTIN: I really
have read the book.
I don't do this when
I don't read the book.
CAROLINE WEBB: I know,
but it's wonderful.
It feels-- yeah.
So the other thing
that you can do
to reduce the amount
of time your brain
is switching from one
thing to the other--
actually, let me try something.
Can I try something
with the audience?
MATT BRITTIN: Yes.
Yes.
They're not me.
CAROLINE WEBB: Yeah, yeah.
That's all right.
MATT BRITTIN: Don't put
me in the threat zone.
Put them.
You're in the fear
zone now, audience.
Get in the fear zone.
CAROLINE WEBB: You don't have
to get up or do anything much,
I promise.
So if you say 1-2-3-4-5-6-7
as quickly as you can,
on my mark-- and
with some energy.
One--
AUDIENCE: 1-2-3-4-5-6-7.
CAROLINE WEBB: OK.
Then you say A-B-C-D-E-F-G,
similarly energetic.
AUDIENCE: A-B-C-D-E-F-G.
CAROLINE WEBB: Fantastic.
So crisp.
Like a cult. Wonderful.
[LAUGHTER]
OK.
Now I'd like you
to mix the two up.
I'd like you to say
A1, B2, C3, D4-- which
should take, basically,
the same amount of time.
OK?
Go.
AUDIENCE: A1, B2, C3, D4--
[LAUGHTER]
CAROLINE WEBB: I love the
fact you just gave up.
[LAUGHTER]
MATT BRITTIN: Epic fail.
Why?
CAROLINE WEBB: Why?
Because you're switching
from numbers to letters
to numbers to letters.
And so the advice
that comes out of that
is the more you can batch
similar types of tasks
together, the quicker you
will get through them.
MATT BRITTIN: Oh.
CAROLINE WEBB: So
for me, I like to-- I
like to think about
different zones in my day.
Doesn't always work,
because obviously,
you have unexpected stuff.
But being a late-night
person, I actually
find that my peak time for
creative, thoughtful work
is actually the afternoon.
You will never see that
anywhere written down,
because all of the advice is
tuned for early-morning people.
But I know that, and so I
do my meetings and calls
in the morning.
And it doesn't always
work quite like that,
but that's what I aim for.
And then I also
have email blitzes
in the morning
and the afternoon.
I stay online,
except when I'm going
offline to do my deep thinking.
But I really blitz my
email, morning and evening.
And that just reduces
the time it takes.
MATT BRITTIN: Top tip.
AUDIENCE: So much of
what you talked about is
having a good day at work.
Obviously the other part
of having a good life
is what goes on outside of work.
What are the key things
you've discovered
which you think are transferable
to life outside of work
and difficult social situations?
Personally thinking
of the school gates,
which seems to be the most
toxic environment I've ever
encountered.
[LAUGHTER]
You know, what--
MATT BRITTIN: You have got
children, just to be clear.
[LAUGHTER]
Just to be clear.
AUDIENCE: Yeah.
I wasn't browsing, no, man.
What-- in the terror
zone here, by the way.
CAROLINE WEBB: Excellent.
AUDIENCE: What could I
transfer, and particularly
help my good lady wife with,
who seems to experience
that more than I do?
CAROLINE WEBB: It's
a great question.
Actually, you know,
the book at one point
was called "How to Have
a Good Day at Work."
But because it became so
obvious that all of this advice
is just as relevant with your
families and your friends,
we reframed it, actually.
The examples in the book are
about professional situations,
but "good person;
bad circumstances,"
incredibly helpful in
family situations, right?
Someone is behaving in a certain
way, and you think, OK, well,
what might have
happened with them?
And actually, I have to
say, lots of my clients
say that they test things
out on their children
before they start to use
them with their colleagues.
So there was a
particular pattern
I started to see of men talking
about their relationships
with their teenage daughters.
And specifically, they
often homed in on the advice
about giving them autonomy.
Which, of course, doesn't
look like just saying,
you know, just do it
you want, darling.
But asking them
questions, rather
than telling them what to do.
Saying, what do you think is
the right way to go about this?
What makes you think that?
What would be another approach?
And the fact is that
the things that we've
been talking about today are
very deep and very universal.
So the power of
autonomy works even
with a 13-year-old girl,
or a 15-year-old girl.
Hard to believe, perhaps.
But these things are
very translatable.
MATT BRITTIN: Recognize that.
Is that-- any follow-up?
AUDIENCE: I'm very
happy with that.
Interestingly, I often try
some of these things at home,
and my wife's stock response is
now, "Don't try and Google me."
CAROLINE WEBB: Oh my
gosh, that's funny.
AUDIENCE: But yeah,
I'll keep trying.
CAROLINE WEBB: You need
to find someone else.
Try it on your children.
[LAUGHTER]
AUDIENCE: She's much
more pliable, yeah.
CAROLINE WEBB: There's a client
of mine who is an Italian guy,
and he has a small child.
Very small.
And his wife was concerned
that he wasn't speaking
as early as they were hoping.
And so Francesco
said, I'm going to try
this approach of really
listening and then playing
back what the child is saying,
and then adding one or two
new words into what I'm saying.
So using what they've said,
but then adding a few words.
So giving this child
a sense of competence
because you're using the same
words, and then sort of just
stretching them slightly
by adding in a few more.
And it did accelerate the little
one's language acquisition
after that point.
I think these things are so
fundamental and so basic.
So yes, have a go.
MATT BRITTIN: Thank you.
AUDIENCE: Thank you.
MATT BRITTIN: Thank you.
Any other questions?
I want to talk a little bit
more about the mind-body energy
thing, if we can.
We talked a bit about
productivity earlier.
Are there things that we
can notice about ourselves,
or others, in that respect?
And how do we keep up?
You know, the energy that
we need-- particularly here,
I think-- is quite high.
It's fast-paced.
There's lots of change
all the time, et cetera.
How can we deal with that?
CAROLINE WEBB: I do think
that-- well, I mentioned breaks
earlier on.
I do think being
smart about planning
strategic breaks is important
as you look across the day.
I do think taking every
single opportunity
to do a tiny bit of
physical exercise--
I mean, for me, honestly,
I'm not a gym type of person.
So walking, walking
as fast as I can,
going for a walk around the
block, even going for a walk
up to a different floor.
MATT BRITTIN: So can
I check in on this?
So there's something
about just, like,
moving which helps you kind
of process things and stuff.
CAROLINE WEBB: Yeah.
MATT BRITTIN: Then--
but you're also
sort of saying exercise,
which is a notch up,
it's not just that.
There's something about
elevating your heart rate
and your breathing that's
more than just moving.
CAROLINE WEBB: It can be.
I mean, you know, the evidence
is really encouraging in this.
I read this paper where the
scientists were saying--
it was actually quite sort
of colloquial language
for a research paper,
saying, more exercise
is better than less, but less
exercise is better than none.
Just this general sense
that any activity is useful
and stimulating.
So the problem is
often when you kind
of-- especially this
time of year, and you
have these sort of New
Year's resolutions.
The risk is, you've
set them here.
And when you fail,
you get this feeling
of threat and disappointment.
It's the opposite of reward.
And then the reason
that that's an issue
is that reward is motivating.
That's the way the reward
system works in the brain.
So you have a small success.
You feel good about yourself.
You feel motivated to
try the next thing.
So I would always
encourage people to set
very small, manageable goals.
What is it that I actually
think I can really do today?
And then achieve
that, feel great,
and then do a tiny bit
more, if you want to.
But it's always much
better to do that,
from the perspective
of neuroscience,
than it is to start
big and work back.
MATT BRITTIN: Now, we're getting
close to being out of time.
There's so much we
haven't touched on.
But one other area that
we've touched on a bit,
and we haven't gone
into so much depth on,
is the relationships that
we have around the place,
and how what you talked
about, in terms of the way
the brain operates and so
on, affects relationships.
What are the things
that you've learned
and that you advise
us in that area?
CAROLINE WEBB:
Well, we've touched
on a lot of the things
that are relevant.
So your intentions will shape
the way you perceive people.
The extent to which you
present a threat to them,
or reward to them, will
make a big difference
to their behavior.
But there are other
things in the mix.
There are very sort of fun
and strange things in the mix.
I mean, you all know,
if we come on stage
and we had been really
visibly grumpy and stressed,
what would have happened?
There would have been
this ripple effect
where you'd all have been,
like, what-- what's happened?
What's going on?
Same thing if you're in a
meeting and someone grumpy
comes in.
It just kind of settles
this cloud over the room.
So research suggests that
you're absolutely right,
that within five minutes,
people's emotions sync up,
even when you're not
working on the same thing.
And even when you don't
even talk to each other.
There's lots of disagreement
in the behavioral sciences
about why this happens.
Because--
MATT BRITTIN: So it
definitely happens, facts,
but we don't know why.
CAROLINE WEBB: But it
definitely happens.
I mean, so there are some who
believe it's mirror neurons.
Problem is, mirror
neurons haven't
been found in human beings.
The research has
been done in monkeys.
There's some--
MATT BRITTIN: Sorry, hang on.
That sounds interesting.
So monkeys have got
something we haven't?
CAROLINE WEBB: No, we
almost certainly have them,
but the research involves
invasive explorations which
have not been done in humans.
MATT BRITTIN: Right.
CAROLINE WEBB: Right.
So--
MATT BRITTIN: Is that something
about telepathy, is it?
Or--
CAROLINE WEBB: Yeah.
I mean, you'll read a lot in
the popular press about mirror
neurons, and the existence
of mirror neurons.
The truth is that you
can really wind up
a neuroscientist very quickly
by talking about mirror neurons.
MATT BRITTIN: OK.
Great.
CAROLINE WEBB: But
even without that--
[LAUGHTER]
Yes.
Even without that, we know from
psychology, years and years
of research, that
there is something
called theory of mind.
We have this ability
to empathize.
We have this ability to perceive
the possibility someone else
has a mind different to ours,
after the age-- well, there's
a particular age, as a child,
where you start to imagine
someone is different to you.
Some executives have never
quite got there, but yes.
There's definitely
this idea that we
are built social animals,
we are built to sync up
with people around us.
So just knowing that the way
you go in to a conversation
has an enormous effect
on the people around you.
And there have been
times when I've
been in a meeting
that's going south.
And there's a point
where I think, well,
I can get irritated
or worried about this,
or I recognize that I can be a
little bit of a force for good
at this moment, whatever the
science is underneath it,
and say, OK, what do I want
to radiate into the room?
And just try and bring something
to mind that actually puts you
in that state--
MATT BRITTIN: This
whole thing about,
you know, if I smile, then I
become happier, that's true,
isn't it?
CAROLINE WEBB: Yeah, it is.
I mean, again, there's
this sort of two-way flow
in the central nervous
system, which is quite weird.
So when we're happy,
we tend to smile.
When we relax, we tend
to breathe deeply.
When we're confident,
we tend to stand tall.
And it seems that the
relationship goes the other way
around, as well.
So when we mimic the
activities associated
with being happy,
relaxed, and confident,
we-- again, debate
on exactly how
this works-- our brain
interprets that as a signal
we can be happy,
confident, and relaxed.
And so smiling, yes.
A little bit of-- you know,
finding a reason to smile,
even if it's a bit lame,
can quickly end up--
MATT BRITTIN: Now I'm
very self-conscious now.
CAROLINE WEBB: No, yeah.
I know.
Hey.
MATT BRITTIN: There's
some great training
I think some people have done
called "Taking the Stage,"
which we run it,
which is brilliant.
And it's actually
partly about that.
CAROLINE WEBB: Is it?
MATT BRITTIN: It's
like, how do you
kind of fake presence, which
then gives you the confidence
to--
CAROLINE WEBB: Right.
Quickly becomes a
self-fulfilling prophecy.
MATT BRITTIN: Yeah, exactly.
It's really, really powerful.
CAROLINE WEBB: Absolutely.
MATT BRITTIN: Powerful stuff.
OK.
Well, look, I
mean, I think we're
almost completely out of time.
Thank you, everybody, for
coming and joining us today.
It's a great book.
I recommend the read.
And thank you very
much, Caroline Webb.
CAROLINE WEBB:
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
