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(blues music)
- Dr Mike Cheadle is
an associate professor
at the University of
Wyoming in Geophysics
and Magmatic Processes.
He came to Wyoming from England.
And his definition of a cruise
is likely very different
from yours.
He'll tell us how we
understand more about the moon
and Mars than we
do about our oceans
and he does that right here
at the University of Wyoming.
Dr Mike Cheadle, next
on Wyoming Chronicle.
(dramatic music)
- [Announcer] Funding for
this program was provided
in part by the Wyoming
Public Television Endowment
and viewers like you.
- [Armstrong] One
small step for man,
one giant leap for mankind.
- We actually know more about
the typography of the moon
and of Mars than we do actually
of the seafloor itself.
I'm a Geologist that studies
the rocks on Planet Earth
and my big interest is
studying the oceans.
Because the oceans are one
of the last frontiers
for exploration.
Something like 70% of the Earth
surface is covered by ocean
and so 70% of the Earth surface
is made this ocean crust.
And we don't really
know how it forms.
Simply because it's so
difficult to get down there.
So my interest is to go to
the middle of the oceans,
go down or send
robots down there
or actually go
down in a submarine
and collect the rocks
to try and understand
how oceanic crust
is actually made.
So Pito Deep is in the
Southern Pacific Ocean.
This place is so remote.
23 Years ago there'd
been a single dive
by a French submarine
that had found
one of these hydrothermal vents.
Nobody had been back since.
For all we knew, he
could've died or whatever
and so we went back there
and we dropped our
autonomous vehicle
which basically maps the
seafloor at one meter resolution
and it really was one
of those Eureka moments,
I will remember it for
the rest of my life.
I was given the map.
And you look at the map
on the computer screen
and then you zoom in and
what you begin to realize
is that it wasn't just
one hydrothermal vent,
there were 50
hydrothermal vents.
And we found that of
all those 50 chimneys,
some think about eight
were basically teeming
with life and erupting
water at 378 degrees C.
And the whole
ecosystem down there,
living in total darkness,
from the bacteria
to the shrimp, muscles,
fish and brittle stars,
you know while the
idea is, is way back,
literally thousands and
millions of years ago
that the Earth was
a barren planet,
but there might have been water,
might've been volcanic activity
and then somehow
life basically grew
in that environment.
And these hydrothermal vents,
people think that those
might be good analogs
for how life has
started on Earth.
So we actually did
sample some pieces
of the hydrothermal vents.
- This was wrapped
by the robotic arm
and sampled.
This is a cut piece of
a similar vent structure
and this is just where
the fluids had percolated
through the rubble at
the base of the chimney
and you can see all of
these sort of iron sulfides.
- So we picked up something
like about 450 samples
which is an amazing amount
and so those rocks will
actually provide many,
many years of research.
And so some of the
students that came with us,
are doing their Masters
projects and PHD projects
on those rocks.
And it's understanding
those rocks
that's gonna tell us the story
of how ocean crust forms.
Imagine if you were
the very first person
to be walking on top
of the snowy ranch.
You know, the very first
person to be looking
at the rocks up there.
Very first person to be
looking at the crusted plants.
You know, we can do
that in the oceans.
They are one of the last
frontiers of research
on planet Earth.
- And as we continue
with Wyoming Chronicles,
today it's our pleasure
to now be joined live,
not on a ship, with
Dr Michael Cheadle,
here from the
University of Wyoming.
Dr Cheadle, welcome
to Wyoming Chronicle.
- Thank you, Craig.
Dr Cheadle or Mike,
if that's okay.
We had a chance to see
the trip that you took
to Pito Deep and we'll
talk more about that
in just a little bit.
But first, give us a
sense of who you are.
You were born and
raised in England.
- Indeed.
- [Craig] And had a strong
enthusiasm for geology,
when you were young.
- Yeah, so, you know, I think
it's one of those things,
when I was in school, Craig.
You know you take a
bunch of subjects.
And I fell in love with geology.
I was lucky enough to
have a geography teacher
who was a geologist by training.
And even at that
point, at 12 years old,
I suddenly decided well,
geology might be for me.
And I was lucky enough
to be able to follow
that track through,
at each stage to
continue through.
And then I went
through University.
- How did one do that
as a 12 year old?
What grabbed you at that time?
- I've, you know,
I mean, the thing
that excited me the most,
is that was way back
in the late 70's.
And it was at a time,
when just after this topic
of Plate Tectonics
was discovered.
And so, geology as a subject,
went through a revolution
in the 60's and 70's.
It really became a science.
And what happened
is, people realized
that there was a
grand unifying theory
to explain how mountains formed
and how the ocean basins formed,
and how volcanoes work.
Or at least some theory
to put all that together.
And so, you know, you saw
this thing on TV shows,
Nova and things like that.
And at that time I was
captivated about it.
Understanding how the mountains
out the window really worked
and I've just been lucky
enough throughout my career
to actually continue in
that large scale subject
of understanding how
the whole planet works.
- You got your undergraduate
degree in England at Oxford
and then you came to
graduate school at Cornell?
- Yeah. So you know, when
I was an undergraduate
I thought, well
wouldn't it be great
if I can go to another country
and carry on studying geology
and so this really exciting
program at the time,
called the COCORP project
which was consortium
for continental
reflection profiling.
And what had happened there
is, some bunch of academics
at Cornell, had realized
you can take the techniques
that oil companies use,
but instead look for oil,
investigate the whole
structure of the earth's crust.
And so it was a big
project at the time
and I was lucky enough
to go and be a part of it
and so I went and
did that for a while
and then as a Brit,
what happened was,
the many countries
around the world followed
and said, look, we've
gotta do this too.
And the French did it,
the Spanish did it,
the Germans did it,
the Canadians did it
and the British did it.
And so here was this, there
were actually two of us,
two British students at Cornell,
and we were both kind of
brought back to England
to partly help start up the
similar project in Britain,
'cause we'd learned
that experience.
- And you continued then
and got your PHD actually?
At Cambridge, correct?
- Yeah, so I did
that for a while
and then I decided,
well I gotta change
and so I was lucky enough
to work with a professor,
called Dan McKenzie,
who was one of,
who is still alive, but
he was one of the leaders
of this big Platec
Tonic revolution.
And so I completely
changed track
and started to look at how you
get the melt out of the earth
that forms a volcano.
And so I did a PHD on
mathematical modeling
trying to understand
how volcanoes work.
And that
then that led me to my first job
which was in
Liverpool University.
And then about nine
years later I came
to the University of Wyoming.
- And how did you come here?
Were on campus?
Were in the geology museum here
at the University of Wyoming,
what brought you to Wyoming?
- Say two reasons.
One, there were just so many
more opportunities in the US.
US is a bigger country and
one of the first things
that hit me when I'd been here
was that in this country
you can really attack
basic, science problems.
There is the money available
to be able to explore the world
and do things for
the first time.
And in smaller
countries that limited.
So the opportunity for
research is just amazing.
But the other was
a personal reason,
in that my wife was
already a professor here
or sorry, she
wasn't my wife then,
but my then, I knew a professor
here and we were getting
to know each other
well, we were partners
and we were lucky enough to
interview both in Liverpool
where I worked and
Wyoming where she worked
and basically it was a
very easy decision to come
to the University of Wyoming.
- Back to your ocean work.
- Yeah.
- You've been on 11 cruises.
- Yeah.
- You're concept of a
cruise, I'll tell you
is very different than mine.
With obviously the great
research that you do,
how did you end up
wanting to study this work
in the ocean?
And it just, it strikes
me as this isn't something
that someone from Wyoming
would end up doing.
Maybe if you were at
a coastal institution.
- The magic word is exploration.
And so the follow on, I
remember as a grad student
that I told myself, I
would never go to sea.
Because it seemed like
too much hard work
and I wouldn't do
it and then so,
just before I actually
came to Wyoming,
I got invited to go to sea.
And I thought well, why not?
Let's go and see
what this is like.
And so one of the first
things is you get a license
to travel the world, you
mentioned 11 cruises.
But they often leave
from exotic places.
- Easter Island and
the one we saw earlier.
- Easter Island, Reunion,
Mauritius, South Africa,
the one that I just
came back from.
So you get this
chance to travel.
But the real reason is,
once you're on that ship
and, or the science
team is on that ship,
you are really going to places
that nobody's ever been before.
You're exploring the ocean.
And there's a total buzz
from coming, from deciding
what to do and so
you have submarines,
you can dredge up
rocks from the bottom,
but it's totally evolving.
The fun thing is you might
write a proposal to say,
look, we're gonna
go and look at this,
when you get there, you realize,
you really did not have
any idea what it's like.
And then you're making this
program as you go along
to explore the
bottom of the oceans.
- So, not only are
there scientific
reasons to change it up,
or make some real
time decisions,
weather and many other things
impact what you're able to do.
- Indeed, the biggest
challenge for me,
and it was one of
the most interesting
and fun things to do,
but also stressful.
So in the last, well one
cruise that went to Pito Deep,
I was actually one of
the chief scientists.
And so I was the guy that
was making the decisions.
And it's one of those things
that you don't really appreciate
until you get on the ship
and then you
realize these people
that run the ship are expecting
me to tell them what to do.
It's like who are
you talking to?
But then you try to
juggle all this stuff
and so the trick is,
a cruise is expensive,
you need to run 24 hour, seven,
24 hours a day.
You can't afford to stop
or you don't want to stop,
because you're just
then wasting time
and on that cruise we had
two different submarines.
We were also trying
to map the seafloor
and the background
to the submarines is,
they can only be down for
a certain amount of time,
they have to come back to
recharge their batteries.
The people that are running
them at times need time off
and then as you
mentioned, the weather.
So you are looking at
the weather forecast,
you're trying to decide,
okay we'll put this submarine
down for 24 hours, then
we'll bring that back
and put the other submarine down
and you're trying
to juggle this.
And eventually gets to
the point where you know,
you're running out of time,
and so it's a tremendous,
but fun and a challenge
to try and organize
all this stuff
and all the people running
it and keep everything going,
are juggling all those
balls at the same time
and get as much done as you can.
- And there's also a lot
of work you had to do
prior to leaving Easter Island.
You had to order buckets, you
had to make sure you had food,
and everything about
the cruise was for you.
- Well, you mentioned the
cruise and so, the ship itself,
it's essentially a Navy ship.
And so it is very
much like that.
The chief scientist
cabin is quite nice,
but every other cabin
is just a steel cabin,
with a couple of bunk beds
and so on and so forth.
But basically you get the ship,
you get the people that run it,
you get the people that
run the submarines,
but that's all you get and so
you have to provide everything
from pens, sticky notes and
all the scientific equipment
that you might
need, microscopes,
you mentioned buckets to put
the samples in when they come
and of course you've gotta
guess how many buckets you need
and so we took 200 buckets
and didn't use them,
'cause we just
didn't really know.
But to make all this work, we
actually hired a U-Haul van
and put all the stuff in
the back of the U-Haul van
in Wyoming and then drove
in October all the way
to the Oregon coast and actually
loaded the ship in Oregon.
- So, continuing on
with the science.
- Yeah.
- What are you learning,
what has changed
in what you thought to
now, what you're thinking
as you're moving forward here?
- There's two parts
to the science.
Every proposal requires
a specific question.
The cruise we were last
on, just a month ago,
there's a--
- [Craig] This is
to the Indian Ocean.
- This is the Indian Ocean.
There's a huge rise in
the seafloor, huge bump,
topographic bump in the
seafloor, called the Marion Rise
and the question is why.
We simply don't know.
And moving back one
step, the fun thing
about exploring the
oceans, is that literally,
we haven't done that much.
As everybody probably
knows, the oceans cover 70%
of the Veo surface.
- And as we learn in the
run into our discussion,
we know more about
Mars and the moon.
- Exactly and so in terms
of the the typography
of the seafloor, which
reflects the geology going on,
we know much less as you
said, than Mars and the moon
and it turns out that we
know, we've mapped it,
to that level in
about 15% of the 70%.
- Before we go on, talk about,
we have satellite maps.
- Yeah.
- And then we have maps
that you were making
down to one meter resolution.
- So, one of the cool things
about the geology
of the seafloor is
that if you can
see the typography,
you can predict the geology.
'Cause the typography
of the seafloor
down there is either
gonna be a big volcano,
it's either gonna
be a big mountain
formed by some
sort of big fault,
or it's gonna be some
massive landslide deposit.
And really that's all that
can happen down there.
And so if you can get
a very accurate picture
of the seafloor, you can
interpret what's going on.
Is it volcanoes,
is it big faults,
are there big landslides?
So the question is how
do we get that map?
And so one of the
things we can do is,
we can use satellites to
literally measure the surface
of the sea.
But the surface of the
sea reflects the surface
of the seafloor,
because of gravity.
If you've got a big mountain
at the bottom of the ocean,
then that causes a bulge
in the sea surface.
And so, we can use satellites,
to make accurate maps
of the sea surface
and then we can invert that
to get maps of the seafloor.
But that only gives
you a resolution
of about four or
five kilometers.
So, you could take
a big mountain
and basically put it
on the ocean floor
and if it's smaller than
four or five kilometers,
you won't know it's
there from those maps.
And so the next scale
of thing we can do is
actually sale ship there
and affectively use sonar
or think about it like radar,
to map the seafloor
from the ship.
And that will give you something
like about 60 meters resolution.
So in doing that,
we can suddenly see
whether that volcano, whether
that mountain is a volcano,
or whether that mountain is a
big fault controlled mountain
or whether there's
big landslides.
And then you can go
to the next step,
is you can put down one of
these autonomous vehicles
to the bottom of the seafloor
and so these things
are like drones.
And so you basically,
you can put them down,
they can stay down
for about 24 hours,
that's purely battery life,
but as they, and
you program them
to basically plow the
furrows of the field
and what they're doing
is mapping the seafloor
at something like a
one meter resolution.
So then you get to
see the rock outcrop
or as you saw in
the video earlier,
we get--
- [Craig] Aha moment.
- Exactly these
hydrothermal vents.
And for my scientific career
and you saw it earlier,
really was one of the
Eureka moments for me.
We decided, we were gonna
put the autonomous vehicle
down there, the
submarine and make a map
and then you eagerly
await it coming back
and the people that run it
eventually give you a memory
stick with some data on it
and then you plug
it into the computer
and I remember looking
at the map, big scale,
from afar and I thought
that's a nice map
and it really was the Eureka
moment is on the computer,
you zoomed in and then
suddenly you could see
all these hydrothermal vents.
- You were broadcasting
back to students,
even here in Wyoming while
you were on the ship.
- Yes, so one of the things
that we try and do is,
bring this experience
to literally people
around the world.
And so both on that
cruise to Pito Deep,
and the cruise we just did,
we did something
like on the ordry
of 30 live, two way broadcasts
to students around the world.
And actually in Wyoming
we did Geological
scientists as well.
Call out, we did the
Geologists of Jackson hall,
we did the Wyoming
Geological association,
so we actually did formal
lectures from the boat
in the middle of the ocean to
these geological societies.
But the more fun thing was
talking to the students.
And we did everybody
from kindergarten
through to college students.
And to places around the world.
On this last trip we did
schools in Indonesia,
schools in Europe and of
course schools in the US
and with a big preference,
we're doing schools in Wyoming.
And so one of the,
it's one of these
things you can now do,
and so we would do these
50 minute broadcasts,
two way so the students
can ask us questions,
but the biggest thing is
just giving these school
children an insight
in what life is like on a ship,
what it's like to be on a ship,
what it's like to be in
the middle of an ocean
and what it's like to do
groundbreaking science.
And again I can't stress enough
the whole exploration thing
of just being the
first people there.
- You've taken students
to the Atlantic Ocean,
the Pacific Ocean
and the Indian Ocean,
from the University of Wyoming?
- Yes, yeah.
- Found it remarkable that
what you have broughten back
will now be fuel so to
speak for graduate research
for years to come.
- Yes, indeed.
So, one of the
questions said earlier
and going back to it, so.
What are we doing out there?
We're trying to answer
fundamental questions.
And so back to the
Pito Deep cruise again,
one of the things
that's happened,
I mean, we've been
exploring the oceans,
the geology of the oceans
now for 30 or 40 years.
And it's easy to pick a
rock up from the surface,
from the seafloor, really.
But what you're, we're
interested in here in Wyoming,
is what does oceanic
crust really look like.
And so oceanic
crust is this layer
that underlies the ocean which
is seven kilometers thick.
We've collected a lot
of rocks from the top,
but we have very few
rocks from within it.
And so you can find a
few places in the oceans
where there's a big fault,
that gives you a crack
or a cross section
through the oceanic crust,
where you can
sample those rocks.
And that's what we were doing
on the Pito Deep cruise,
that was the real
science for the,
we were literally doing
the most detailed sampling
that's ever been done to
give you a cross section
through that oceanic crust.
And we brought back
40 or 50 rocks.
And so all those rocks
need to be studied
and so we have two
graduate students here now,
other graduate students
at Scripps in San Diego,
Scripps Oceanography.
All those students are
working on their rocks
for those theses
and as you said,
it is such a unique collection,
that I would foresee people
working on those rocks
for literally many
years to come.
- When I think of the
geology department
here at the
University of Wyoming,
I think I think about,
mineral research,
energy research,
those more applicable
types of things.
Is our students surprised
that it's really
much more than that?
- I think our students
probably less so,
because they get introduced
to the whole spectrum
of geology, but one
little story was
that we got invited
when we came back
to talk to the college of arts
and science board of trustees
and so, we gave our little
story about Pito Deep
and all the things we did
and one of the comments
that came back there from
the board of trustees is,
I didn't know you guys
did that kind of stuff.
- I can imagine.
You're an award
winning teacher here
at the University of Wyoming.
Yet you also do all
of this research.
Is it hard for you to
balance those two things?
- No, I think the whole
reason we're here is to teach.
And as much as,
and you can tell,
as much as I'm excited
and really enjoy going
on these cruises and exploring,
one of the biggest things
is taking the students.
Is taking students who've never,
maybe never even been
out of the country
and so on the Pito Deep
trip as you mentioned,
we took the students
to Easter Island
and on top of that
the students said,
well, what the hell, when
we're going to Chile,
let's go to Patagonia
and so these students,
which, well one of the
students have never even been
to the East Coast, and
there they are in Patagonia
and there they are
in Easter Island.
And so, I think the most
important thing I do
is really teaching the students.
Whether it be opportunities
on these cruises,
but also in the classroom.
And because they are the future.
I mean, in some
ways I am the past,
or I'm soon to be the past,
but our future is
educating the students
and have them to go on
and do great things.
- But you still have plans.
What's up next, what's
the next cruise?
- Well, so two answers to that.
There's a reality and the dream.
And so the reality,
there is a German cruise.
So I mentioned this last cruise
with the multi national one,
and so part of the deal is,
the National Science Foundation
in the US funded the cruise
I was just on.
And so the German equivalent
have funded a partner cruise
and so there'll be a cruise
with basically the same people
going out, but on a German ship.
And that will be next year.
And so that will become,
carry on that exploration
and just to interject
there, the fun there is,
the Indian ocean is a place
that we really have not looked
at very carefully.
And it's partly just
because of where it is.
It's way away from Europe, it's
way away from North America.
Also down there, you're in
the so called roaring 40's.
So the weather is really bad.
Or it can be really, or the
seas can be really rough.
And so part of the fun is
people haven't been
there that much.
And so again, it comes back
to being the first people
to go there and explore.
And so that's concrete but
to finish off my career,
I have two dreams to
write, two proposals
for two more cruises
to go and again,
answer some of these
fundamental questions
about the nature of
the earth's crust.
And so one of the big
projects have been around
for 50 years is to drill a hole
all the way through the
crust into the mantle.
And so that would be a hole
that's seven kilometers deep.
And people have dreamed
about that for 50 years.
People actually
started during the 60's
when we were going to the moon.
And the very initial
people even got telegrams
from President Kennedy,
congratulating them
on their progress.
But their progress, is
such a difficult problem
that we've never achieved that.
And in truth, I'm not
sure we ever will.
But we can do what
we did at Pito Deep.
We can take submarines
and basically do it
a different way and that's look
at one of these cross
sections through the crust
and so the end of
my, a wonderful end
to my career would be
to go and map this thing
called the Moho, which
is short for Mohorovicic
who is a Croatian Scientist
that discovered the
crust mantle boundary,
a hundred years ago.
- A lot of research
all over the world.
How is this funded?
- A lot of it comes through the
National Science foundation,
I mean the US is very lucky
in that we have the
National Science Foundation
which puts a lot of
money into Science.
And I thank them
most gratefully.
Plus of course the
support that comes
from places like the
University of Wyoming.
I mean we get money from
the University of Wyoming
to help students go out
there to participate
in the cruises.
And so in a way
we're very lucky.
- Is this funding at
risk in the near future?
Do you see it
become, is it stable?
- There's always the
question, the big question
of how much funding should
the country put into science?
- Dr Mike Cheadle, it's
just been a pleasure
to visit with you.
Your enthusiasm is just awesome.
- Thank you.
- And I really appreciate
your joining us today
on Wyoming Chronicle.
- Thank you very much, Craig.
(dramatic music)
- [Announcer] Funding for
this program was provided
in part by the Wyoming
Public Television Endowment
and viewers like you.
