>> JOSH CHATRAW: So, if we've covered the
two kind of ends of the spectrum –
>> AMY BLACK: Sure.
>> CHATRAW: Now let's fill in and start –
>> BLACK: OK.
>>CHATRAW: - exploring some of the ones in
between.
>> BLACK: OK.
>>CHATRAW: So maybe if you wanted - and I
think there could be different names for this
- but the Lutheran model.
>> BLACK.
Sure.
>> CHATRAW: Is that a fair description?
>> BLACK: Right.
>> CHATRAW: Or maybe you can discuss that?
>> BLACK: Sure, we can talk about the Lutheran
church.
The Lutheran church is going to be kind of
closer to the Anabaptist church in some ways—a
little less engaged with culture than some
of our other models.
The Lutheran tradition, of course, comes from
the Protestant Reformation, Martin Luther,
a Catholic Priest who is worried about the
Catholic church, trying to reform the church
from within, and unfortunately, the reformation
from within doesn't work, and he ends up being,
really, the father of a modern denomination.
It never was his intention, but that's what
happened.
So, in the Lutheran tradition, one of the
hallmarks of this tradition is something often
called two kingdoms.
There's this idea that we need to think about
the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Man.
And Luther likes to talk about law and Gospel.
And the law is that which restrains evil and
keeps back problems in society.
And the Gospel is that law of love that God
gives us for His people to move forward God's
purposes and Kingdoms.
So, that's kind of some of the emphasis. 
Another key Hallmark in the Lutheran tradition
is really their view of government.
In general, Lutherans are going to say the
government is primarily necessary to restrain
people.
After the fall sin comes in.
We all start to do things that we shouldn't
do.
Someone needs to come in and to keep sinful
people from being so sinful.
And that's in many ways the role of government.
So, that's an emphasis in this tradition.
>> CHATRAW: Okay, and so a strength and a
weakness here again?
>>BLACK: Sure.
So, I think a strength of this tradition is,
I think, that reminder.
I think the law and Gospel piece is important.
That there is law that helps us order society,
and that we need society ordered.
But at the same time, there's still the Gospel,
there's God's law that reigned.
And that we as Christians, I think sometimes
we can kind of conflate the two, and we can
sort of forget about God's law and the importance
of what He teaches us and how we are to order
our lives as we're seeking to live in greater
holiness.
Now, a weakness of the tradition, sometimes
this two Kingdoms emphasis is sort of there’s
the world of the law, and then there's the
world of the Gospel.
And somehow, there's this sense of that we're
just dividing things into two, and that who
we are as Christians may not creep so much
into our vocations, for example.
I mean Luther is trying to say the church
should be shaping Christians, and so that
you're shaped in holiness so that affects
your life.
But there have been criticisms of this tradition
that sometimes the idea is on Sunday you do
your Sunday things, and the other days it
doesn't matter.
That's not really what the tradition teaches,
but if you emphasize so much this distinction
between those things that are God's and those
things that are not, sometimes you can forget
what it means to be salt and light and to
be following God in all of your life, in your
vocation, in your everyday work.
>> CHATRAW: And so, the critique is are they
really thinking through how the Gospel impacts
all these different areas, whether that's
heard or not.
I know that different people in the tradition
are recognizing that. 
>> BLACK: Exactly.
The classic criticism of a Lutheran tradition
in our time would come from World War II,
whereas Adolf Hitler was gaining power, many,
but not all, Lutheran churches were in some
ways complicit.
If Hitler said you need to take these things
out of your churches, they did.
Why didn't they resist?
So, there's questions about why the churches
didn't resist.
Of course, there were Lutherans who were resisting
from within the tradition, but there's sort
of this idea that if you take these principles
too far, that you can say whatever government
wants to do is fine.
We'll just do our own thing.
