♪♪
>> Hello, everyone, and welcome
to "Amanpour & Company."
Here's what's coming up.
2 million COVID cases and
counting in Brazil, coming in
second to the United States -- a
report card on the populist
president who failed to take
charge, with award-winning
filmmaker Petra Costa.
Then...
>> When you see something that
is not right, not fair, not
just, say something!
Do something!
>> A new documentary for our
time -- director Dawn Porter on
the legacy of
civil rights giant,
Congressman John Lewis.
Plus...
>> The thing that is fairly
clear is that kids are less
severely affected with this
virus than adults.
>> The knowns and unknowns
around returning to school.
Our Hari Sreenivasan talks to
Dr. Sean O'Leary of the
Academy of Pediatrics.
♪♪
>> "Amanpour & Company" is made
possible by...
Additional support provided by
these funders and by
contribution to your PBS station
from viewers like you.
Thank you.
>> Welcome to the program,
everyone.
I'm Christiane Amanpour, working
from home in London.
The United States, Brazil, and
India are the only countries in
the world with more than a
million coronavirus cases, and a
common thread between them all?
Their populist leaders.
Many blame Brazil's president,
Jair Bolsonaro, for the
country's 2 million cases and
nearly 77,000 dead.
The President himself has the
virus, and yet he consistently
downplays its risks, dismissing
it as a "little flu."
He's also used his veto power to
water down laws that would
protect the public, like one
making in mandatory to wear a
mask in some indoor places.
Since the virus came to Brazil,
Bolsonaro has lost two of his
health ministers.
The current interim one is an
army general, raising fears
about the stability of the
current democracy.
The pandemic has also hit
the economy hard, with nearly
8 million people unemployed.
Now, we asked senior
Brazilian government officials
to join our program tonight,
but they have declined.
Petra Costa is a Brazilian
filmmaker whose Oscar-nominated
documentary,
"The Edge of Democracy,"
warns of a threat to Brazil's
democratic institutions
even beyond the pandemic.
And she's joining me now
from Sao Paolo.
Petra Costa,
welcome to the program.
Can I just start by asking you
what it feels like to be
in the second epicenter?
If the United States
is the worst off,
Brazil is certainly second.
What does it feel like as you
hear the totals
and, you know,
the case load increasing daily?
>> It feels like being trapped
in a nightmare because all
of this could have been avoided.
Brazil wasn't hit by the virus
until it had hit already
Italy, the United States.
We had all the media pressuring
the government to take measures,
but Bolsonaro really resisted
and has done the most
absurd remarks --
for example, when questioned
about the mounting deaths,
he said, "I'm not a gravedigger.
So what?
Everyone's destiny is to die."
He has boycotted
initiatives from mayors,
governors that have tried
to stop the pandemic.
As you said, he didn't
just change one,
but two health ministers
and is putting us
all in a state of paralysis.
As the deaths continue mounting,
his indifference only grows.
>> And, Petra, we're watching
this horrible video, of course,
of the graves going into -- the
coffins going into the ground,
and we've seen in --
for instance, the Amazon region,
we've seen mass graves
in Manaus, the capital there.
I mean, obviously, the pictures
are telling
a very dramatic story.
I wonder whether you've noticed
any change in tone
from Bolsonaro, your president,
since he himself
contracted the disease.
He has COVID.
>> He announced that
with a smirk on his face
and used it as an opportunity
to become a poster boy
for chloroquine,
taking it in the video
and saying
that it was working well for him
and that he was fine
and using it really to downplay
the seriousness of the virus.
And it's also quite strange
that months ago, in March,
he had gone to a trip
to the United States,
and 20 people from his
delegation became contaminated,
and he refused to show
his tests at the time.
He only did so after the
Supreme Court forced him to do
so.
And now he volunteered
this information
in a moment where he's involved
in a huge corruption scandal
and where that's in the media,
and it seems like a perfect plot
to divert attention.
>> And perhaps to get some
sympathy.
Let me ask you,
have his poll numbers suffered?
He was elected in a landslide
in 2018.
Has his popularity sunk at all,
or is he still very popular?
>> His popularity diminished
even more after the pandemic
and after the scandals,
but it continues very solid
at 30%.
>> Mm-hmm.
So, let me ask you, because,
look, when the pandemic
sort of raised its head --
and even before it came
to Brazil --
your then-health minister
and the government took some
very early and quite,
you know, severe moves.
I mean, they banned cruises.
The health minister was very
careful about sort of a lockdown
before there was a lockdown,
so to speak.
So, what happened to that
early success
compared to what's happened now,
which is a total disaster?
>> Well, Bolsonaro fired
this health minister
after he had said that
quarantine was a good thing.
And then when the second health
minister
refused to recommend chloroquine
for COVID patients,
he decided himself to quit,
that second health minister.
Bolsonaro then named
an army general
and decided to militarize
the whole ministry,
substituting health specialists
by military people,
and that has created a tension
where a Supreme Court judge
has recently said
that Bolsonaro's actions
and the fact that the military
is still supporting him
makes the military --
could be collaborating
with what he sees as a genocide.
That remark is very serious
and has created a lot of tension
between the powers.
>> It's a very, very serious
remark, to talk about
genocide in this situation.
But, of course, also the
Supreme Court has...
I mean, I guess I wonder --
what I'm trying to ask you is,
this military general, who is
the interim health minister,
the number of military,
either retired or active duty,
who have been brought into
the government and into civilian
institutions by this president.
You know, you did a documentary
called "The Edge of Democracy"
about your country.
You probably couldn't have
envisioned that when you did it,
or the extent of
the infiltration
or the representation of
the military in your government.
Is there a fear beyond
the pandemic that, you know,
Brazil is tilting again
into a sort of potential
undemocratic future?
>> Definitely.
When I made the documentary,
"The Edge of Democracy,"
I already feared
and felt that Brazil had done
a very bad job
in terms of its past.
We never punished the military
that were responsible for the
crimes during the dictatorship.
We were very weak in teaching
and showing the population
that this was a terrorist state.
And that created the possibility
of electing a military man who
always praised the dictatorship.
And since he is in power, he --
we're already in a military
rule in many regards.
We have more military men
in government now
than we had during the military
dictatorship in Brazil.
There are more military men
in Brazil in power today
than there is in Venezuela.
And the erosion of democracy
and the destruction of democracy
does not happen necessarily
through a military coup
as it did in the past,
but through the weakening
of institutions
as it is happening now.
And what we see happening
is that, whenever Bolsonaro
feels weakened or threatened,
as he has recently
with two investigations,
one that is trying to
investigate the possibility
that he was elected
with a fake news campaign,
and the other that
is involving his son
and a corruption scandal.
As the investigations
push Bolsonaro against the wall,
he uses the threat of a military
coup to protect himself.
He's doing that by going to
rallies asking for military
intervention, rallies against
the Supreme Court and the
Congress.
And his son recently said
that it's not more a matter of
if a military intervention
will happen but when.
>> Whoa, I mean, that is
extraordinary to hear
that coming from a source
so close to the president.
But let me ask you this
because, you know, he's been
criticized for being,
as you've sort of hinted,
at protests where people
are calling for the Congress
and the Supreme Court
to be abolished.
But on the other hand, he has
also responded to all of this.
He's essentially said --
I think he said a while back,
"Us, military men
from the armed forces --
and I'm also a military man --
hold the true responsibility
for democracy in our country.
We could never follow
absurd orders."
In other words, he's trying to
play down the idea that any of
the military types around him
or even himself could issue,
you know, non-civilian orders
and the like.
Have people, you know,
democrats in the country,
taken any sort of satisfaction
or do they feel slightly at ease
since Bolsonaro himself said
that there could never be --
I mean, I guess he's saying
there never could be a military
takeover or military coup
or return
to a military dictatorship.
>> Well, the thing is
that Bolsonaro's strategy
of communication is similar --
or, copying Trump, is always
of saying a very absurd remark
and then negating it.
He's done that
with absolutely everything.
So, people --
No, I don't think people
have been more at ease,
because not only him,
but other generals close to him
have used this threat
of a military coup,
saying that if investigations
into Bolsonaro
come too close to him,
they will not think twice
before using that resource.
So, no, I don't think
that brings us any ease.
>> Of course, you know,
Peru in the '90s --
which is not so far away
from you -- the president
there, also a right-wing
populist, Alberto Fujimori,
he did send tanks and troops
to dissolve Congress
and the judiciary.
So, clearly, you know,
the fear of the
militarization of government
is a real one in Latin America,
which emerged after decades
and decades of that
sort of situation.
So, Bolsonaro said that thing
about, you know,
"There is no militarization
of our government,"
but on the other hand,
from 1999,
there has been a clip of him
that is making the rounds now.
And let's just play it,
because it's a very different
Bolsonaro from the one
who says, "There is no threat
to our civilian democracy."
>> [ Speaking Portuguese ]
>> So, that was in 1999,
when he was deputy
in Rio de Janeiro,
a federal deputy there.
How is that being
sort of received,
that now viral video
going around, reminding people?
>> Well, what is uncanny
is that was
when we reached 30,000 deaths.
Bolsonaro in some ways
fulfilled his promise.
And another remark that he did
in a similar way --
which had similarities
to this one was
when he was congressman
in 2017, where he was trying
to pass a law
to make legal the use of a drug
for cancer that, like
chloroquine,
has no scientific proof
of its use.
And when asked about the drug,
he said, "If it heals or it
doesn't heal, I don't know.
I'm a military man.
My specialty is to kill,
not to heal."
So, it feels like he's using
the same logic here.
>> Yeah.
I mean, you know, you've been
repeating statements that,
you know, one is even more
shocking than the next,
I mean, coming
from Bolsonaro's own mouth,
coming from the mouth
of his family.
It's pretty sort of dramatic,
and I think we do actually
have to point it out
because we see
that democracy is at threat
in many parts of the world
and, furthermore, that there is
a rise of what people call
"illiberal" democracy
and claim "illiberal" democracy.
So, I think, you know, clearly,
the concern about
the survivability of democracy
is very, very important
and relevant right now.
But, particularly,
I want to ask you,
because it's relevant to you
and your family --
you come from, I think --
Tell me about your family
because you come from,
obviously, a political side
that's very against the right,
and, also,
your family had experience
with the military dictatorships.
>> Mm-hmm
Yes, my family is divided.
Half of my family supported
the military coup in the '60s
while my parents
fought against it and had many
friends killed and tortured
by the dictatorship.
So this is very painful
for them to see,
after a whole lifetime
where they felt they had brought
or fought for a democracy
to be established in Brazil,
to see such a recession
into the past --
and puts them in a situation
which is very disheartening.
And what I think is important
for people to know
is that Bolsonaro's
biggest strength is
that he's Trump's ally,
even though Trump
does not think twice before
ridiculing Bolsonaro.
That is Bolsonaro's strength.
So the next election
of the United States
will be crucial in determining
also Brazil's future.
>> So,
that's really interesting.
Let me just give you sort of
a counterfactual question,
because a lot has been written
about whether he can
politically survive the way
he has dealt with the pandemic,
as you mentioned, ridiculing it
and,
you know, watering down masks,
I mean, not to mention
the 8 million people unemployed,
the plummeting of the economy,
the poor people in the favelas
who cannot socially distance --
I mean, all the issues
that we're seeing,
not to mention, of course,
the continued ravaging
of the Amazon,
the rainforest there,
all under cover
of this situation.
But some people are asking --
and I wonder whether
you can comment on this --
that if he actually survives
COVID himself
and does survive it well
and doesn't show
any worse symptoms
than he's showing right now,
could that, in fact, you know,
make him sort of the superhero
of this moment
and vindicate all that he's said
about this, particularly,
obviously, to his supporters?
But could he actually come out,
you know, stronger?
Because we know that, in Brazil,
pandemics and diseases
have actually served to topple
and damage previous
democratically elected
presidents.
>> It's hard to know.
I feel the pandemic
has hurt his popularity
in the middle class.
There was an irony where he was
against giving aid initially
or wanted
to give a very small aid,
but the Congress pressured,
and now a lot of the poorest
in Brazil are receiving a
600 reais aid.
And even though this was not
thanks to him, his popularity
has grown with this.
So it has diminished amongst
the middle class and has grown
amongst the working class.
But if he survives COVID well,
I think still we will --
it's very likely
that Brazil will become
number one in the world
in terms of cases and deaths.
And people will feel this
in their own families
and their neighborhoods,
and I think this will affect
the way they see the government.
But one thing that is
disheartening is how the virus
has really exposed
Brazil's inequality, with
black people
being at much greater risk
of contamination and deaths.
Thousands of indigenous
have been contaminated,
and the deregulations that
you mentioned in the Amazon have
put them at greater risk
with minors contaminating
indigenous populations.
And he's done all of this
supposedly because
of the economy,
and the economy is only
worsening with foreign investors
backing out because
of deregulations in the Amazon.
And so there's really not
a perspective where I see him
coming out as a hero.
>> It's really fascinating
to watch, and, as you mentioned,
the minorities
are suffering the most,
and that is what we're seeing
in the United States
and elsewhere in this pandemic.
Petra Costa, thank you very much
for joining us tonight.
And as we said, we've reached
out to the Brazilian government,
but no one
was available to speak to us.
So we turn now to a movie
that meets this moment of racial
reckoning in the United States.
"John Lewis: Good Trouble"
has been described
as the documentary America
needs right now.
It highlights the political
career and personal story of the
legendary civil rights activist.
As a student, Lewis led sit-ins
to end segregation in Nashville,
and he marched alongside
Martin Luther King Jr.
in Selma, where he was
brutally beaten
while peacefully protesting
for the right to vote.
Today, the 17-term congressman
from Georgia is best known
as the "Conscience of Congress."
In an interview, he told me
how his childhood influenced
his life struggle.
Take a listen.
>> My mother, my father,
my grandparents,
and my great-grandparents
always said to me,
when I asked them questions
about the signs that said
"white waiting, colored waiting,
white men, colored men,
white women, colored women,"
they said, "Don't get in
trouble,
Don't get in the way.
But I was inspired
to get in the way.
I was inspired
to get in trouble --
Good trouble, necessary trouble.
And I think young people
and people not so young
have a moral obligation
and a mission and a mandate
to get in good trouble.
>> [ Chuckles ]
Hence the name of the movie
by the acclaimed director,
Dawn Porter.
As a filmmaker, she has explored
civil rights with her series,
"Bobby Kennedy for President."
And she's joining me now
from Massachusetts.
Dawn Porter,
welcome to the program.
It's great to hear
John Lewis, you know,
even from those years ago,
talking about how "good trouble"
came to be his mantra,
and, of course, it's the name
of your documentary.
Just tell me a little bit
how you came to sort of,
you know, internalize that
and use that as the name.
>> You know, that is what
the congressman is known for,
and I just loved the way that he
took that very familiar phrase
and turned it into
a rallying cry.
You know, and it certainly
spoke to one of the things
I was trying
to accomplish with the movie,
which is to not only hearken
back to his earliest days
but then to also
remind ourselves,
remind everyone, that he is
still getting in good trouble.
You know, he's been arrested
five times since he's been
a sitting congressman,
and I think it's a necessary
reminder that politics is not
a spectator sport.
It's a partic-- We live in a
participatory democracy, and
that's what John Lewis
reminds us of.
>> Well, let me just ask you
because clearly, you know,
he's 80 years old now.
I said he's a 17-term
congressman.
He's not well, and he's not
doing a whole lot of interviews,
if any, for this program,
for this documentary.
But he did come out,
and he was shown around
Black Lives Matter Plaza
outside the White House
when that was,
you know, made --
when the name there was changed.
And so he's been out and about,
and he's looking at it.
You know, I said that
the commentary really around
this documentary
is that it's absolutely
the documentary for our time.
I mean, you didn't obviously
make it knowing
that what is happening now
was going to be happening.
Talk to me about the influence
you think this could have now.
>> You know, I'm so glad
that you referenced
the fact that he went
and he made the trip
down to the Black Lives Matter
art installation
on Black Lives Matter Way,
because I think that that says
a lot about
the congressman's priorities.
You know, when we started
making this film --
I come from a political-science
background.
Like, that's always been my
interest, and I was wondering
if I was going to have
to make the argument
that protests matter,
that protests are still a useful
tool for our democracy.
And so, certainly,
that has changed.
I think everyone is convinced
of the necessity
and the effectiveness
of peaceful protest.
But I think the film is also
resonating in a different way.
You know, we open the film
with him saying he's worried
for our democracy,
and that was an idea
I really wanted to lean into.
And I'm a big fan
of Petra Costa's beautiful
documentary that you were
just speaking with her about.
And I love the idea of people
perhaps watching those together
and thinking that --
something that we thought
was impossible, the loss
of our democratic institutions,
the loss of the systems
that we rely on.
I don't think people
have really focused
on the fragility of democracy,
if we do not safeguard it.
And I think that is,
as much as anything,
what John Lewis is --
what occupies his mind,
what he's concerned about.
It's why he campaigned so hard
to take back the House.
>> Mm-hmm.
>> It is not a football game.
You know, this is not
just a "winners and losers."
This is actually -- you know,
we see how government impacts
people's lives.
>> Yes.
And I think you're absolutely
right to bring up the parallels
between your work,
John Lewis' work,
Petra Costa's work,
because we are all looking
at the strength of democracy
around the world right now,
and we have seen
how these last four years,
particularly the pandemic crisis
and the chaotic response,
particularly
the killing of George Floyd,
which again raises that
terrible injustice that's
in your land and in many others.
And so let's just play, then,
John Lewis' -- as you recount,
as history records, his
putting his life on the line
in a peaceful way for democracy,
for the right to vote,
when he marched in Selma
and tried to cross the bridge
all those years ago.
Here's a little
clip from your documentary.
>> The Monday after
Bloody Sunday, after we were
beaten in Selma, Dr. King came
to my hospital beside
and said, "John, don't worry."
>> I was in the hospital from
Sunday until about an hour ago.
I don't know if I would be able
to participate
in the march today,
but it is my feeling that people
all over this country,
but particular, the people
right here in Alabama,
right here in Selma,
should continue the march
toward Montgomery.
>> So, it's electrifying
to watch that archive,
but it's also doubly so
when you know that those issues
are still in play today,
all these years later.
I just want to read what he said
and get you to respond.
In the film he says,
"I lost all sense of fear then,
and when you lose your fear,
you're free."
Talk to me about that.
>> You know, I thought about
that particular quote
quite a bit.
When we went home to film
with him in Troy, Alabama,
he convened a group
of his high-school classmates,
and they talked about
when John Lewis left home
and was joining the civil rights
movement, how they would crowd
around a radio to listen
and see if he was okay.
You know, he lived in the time
of Emmett Till.
That's how he grew up,
where if you were a black boy
in particular,
looking at a white woman
could get you killed.
So the dangers were real,
and I think it's important
to stress what an intentional
choice he made
to put himself on the line.
And he made that choice
repeatedly, claiming
his full humanity that way.
And living without fear,
that is the ultimate goal
of civil rights, right?
It's living as a person, not as
a person under subjugation.
>> Yeah, but at great,
great risk, of course,
and that's what makes it matter
and makes it effective.
And I want to know --
I want to go back with you
to his family because that's --
he said it to me,
he said it to you, you know,
his family were worried,
his parents were worried.
They said to him, "John,
don't get into trouble,"
and he said, you know,
"I've to get into good trouble,
necessary trouble."
You talked to members of
his family who survived,
his siblings, for the
documentary.
Tell us how difficult it was
for him to get where he did,
even as a young man,
you know, knowing
that his family were worried
and it could have come back
and had terrible repercussions
on them.
>> You know, when we see
such tremendous acts
of bravery, of strategy,
you focus on the person,
on the individual.
So we focused
on the congressman and his acts.
But the very real circumstance
is that his family was very,
very vulnerable as one of
the few black landowners,
as a person with another
nine siblings at home.
The intimidation was not
only focused on the activists,
but also on the family members.
And when I interviewed
his family,
you know, even today,
even all these decades later,
you'll see in the film,
his brother, you know,
kind of tears up,
remembers what it was like,
that all-consuming worry.
And so, I hope that the film
not only celebrates
his contributions but also
the contributions of his family.
Because as afraid as they were,
they didn't stop him,
and they, you know,
would listen for his safety
and support him in his work.
It's a source of tremendous
pride that he was able to go out
and do the things that he did.
>> And just to double down
on what you say, you know,
it's such
a hallmark of the state --
they attack the family, whether
it's in the Soviet Union,
whether it's in dictatorships
and authoritarian regimes
around the world,
you know, and that's
what makes it doubly courageous
for what young people to go out
and do what they have to do
for democracy and for freedom.
And I think I was really struck
also -- because I watched
this movie,
this one, "Good Trouble,"
and I watched also the four-part
series that you did for Netflix
a couple of years ago called
"Bobby Kennedy for President."
And, obviously, John Lewis
is a connection
with Bobby Kennedy, too.
He was a campaign aide,
and he speaks --
you know, he runs through
that series, as well.
And it's an extraordinary thing
to watch right now, to almost --
to see the hope
that Bobby Kennedy sort
of brought way back in 1968,
all the issues that he
talked about, the light
that people like John Lewis,
Harry Belafonte,
and Martin Luther King
and all the others, you know,
sort of brought to the Kennedys
for their fight
for civil rights.
It's almost like it's --
it's sort of déjà vu all over
again all these years later,
right up to a convention moment
and, you know,
next presidential election.
Tell me about the linkage
as you see it.
>> Yeah.
You know, first of all,
I'm thrilled
that you watched that series.
That was also a joy to make,
because I was interested in
the question of transformation.
I was interested in,
in both of these stories,
what prompts a person to act?
And you see, with Bobby Kennedy,
he is not --
he was not the civil rights hero
that we know him
as from the beginning.
He had an evolution.
And part of that evolution
was his interaction with a very,
very young John Lewis.
So Congressman Lewis
tells the story
that he volunteered for
Bobby Kennedy's presidential
campaign.
And he had organized a rally
in Indianapolis on the day
that Martin Luther King Jr.
was murdered.
Bobby Kennedy's aides
were advising him
that it was too dangerous for
him to address a black crowd.
That's where he was supposed
to speak.
And a very young John Lewis
said, "You must speak to them.
You must address their pain,"
essentially.
Kennedy did.
It's well thought of as one
of his most famous and elegant
and beautiful speeches.
It's the only time that he ever
addressed in public,
in a campaign speech,
the death of his brother.
And so, when I heard that story,
I thought, "There are so many
more stories that John Lewis
has to share with us."
And in investigating
both of these stories,
it really, for me,
filled in some of the gaps
in my historical understanding.
So, as a documentary person,
to first look at the civil
rights movement through the eyes
of the very privileged
and powerful Bobby Kennedy
and then to turn it around
and to look at it
through the eyes of the activist
has really allowed me to explore
both men's careers
in a deeper way.
>> And John Lewis said
that he became a crusader
for civil rights --
Bobby Kennedy.
But I want to just go back
one Kennedy, to John Kennedy,
because also in your series,
the great entertainer
and civil rights activist
Harry Belafonte plays a big role
in describing
the Kennedys' evolution,
and particularly Bobby Kennedy.
But, remember, in 1960,
it was an election time
for John Kennedy.
And he needed the minori--
he needed the black vote,
and it wasn't obvious that he
was going to get the black vote.
And Harry Belafonte
did a campaign ad for him.
And this is a clip
that I know about and also that
you've used in that series.
I just want to talk about
elections after this.
>> I want to make it very clear,
Harry, that on this question
of equality of opportunity
for all Americans, whether it's
in the field of civil rights,
better minimum wages,
better housing,
better working conditions,
jobs, I stand for these things.
The Democratic Party
under Franklin Roosevelt
stood for them.
>> I'm voting for the senator.
How about you?
>> So, that's not just an ad.
That is because Harry Belafonte
and the other major activists --
Martin Luther King, everybody --
got President Kennedy to agree
to say those things.
Where do you see that moment
in today's election?
Who is going to be the
Harry Belafonte to our,
you know, Joe Biden
or whoever it might be --
what they're going to do and
what their commitment might be?
>> I just love that you selected
that clip because
the political calculation
and the behind-the-scenes
maneuvering,
I think it's kind of just
an exquisite use
of political power.
And I think that
that's a great question.
I do think that,
with all of
the protests over George Floyd's
killing, that there is --
there exists a similar
opportunity to use this moment.
If any good can come out
of such a tragic event,
it's the will of the people
being expressed publicly
this way.
And we're are
at an inflection point,
where a political leader
does have the opportunity
to step into that void and say,
"This is what the people want.
They want this equality.
They want to live in
a better world."
So, I think it's going to be
very interesting
who the vice president is
and who is guiding
and working with Joe Biden
as the presidential nominee,
so I'm very hopeful
that that person, as well
as the Black Caucus
and some of the more outspoken
members of Congress.
You know, this is what --
this is the voice that
John Lewis has been in the
Congress.
And, typically and historically,
he would be one of those
people pushing.
So, I would probably tend
to look to
like a Representative Clyburn,
an Ayanna Pressley,
a Cory Booker, a Maxine Waters.
All of these people have
a tremendous amount of influence
at this time.
>> Mm.
So, let me
wrap this up now with --
back to John Lewis himself,
who played such a huge link,
you know, between
all that and his life story,
is you would think that he was
just a very serious man
all the time.
But you said you didn't want to
make a statue or a museum piece.
And he's got so much humanity.
And one of the fabulous pieces
of video is this one
that we're going to just play.
And I think people
will get a kick out of it.
>> ♪ 'Cause I'm happy
♪ Clap along...
>> Sing, "I'm Happy."
>> ♪ I'm happy
[ Laughter ]
♪ I'm happy
♪ I'm happy
>> There you go, there you go.
>> He's got the moves, and he's
happy, and he's dancing.
And tell me about that side
of John Lewis.
>> He lives a very full life.
And one of the great experiences
I had in making this film
was spending time with him
at home and in his personal
life.
He's a great collector of art.
And he loves music,
and he loves dancing,
and I think it's
it's important to show
that people are --
even someone as fierce
and ferocious and powerful
as John Lewis has a very human,
soft side.
He lives a very full life.
And I think that this is --
these are some of the examples
of that.
>> So, to end,
I just want to end
by repeating the last words
he said in your film.
And he said, "We will redeem
the soul of America."
And he ended by saying,
"I still believe
we shall overcome."
So it's really powerful.
The whole sort of series
is great.
Thank you so much, Dawn Porter.
Really important storytelling
and so relevant right now.
"John Lewis: Good Trouble" is
executive produced by CNN Films,
AGC Studios and TIME Studios.
And it is currently available
from Magnolia Pictures.
Now, we have been covering
the ongoing political fight
over children
returning to school this fall
amid this pandemic.
And now the medical community
is weighing in,
with the American Academy
of Pediatrics
issuing its own guidance.
Dr. Sean O'Leary is vice chair
of that organization's Committee
of Infectious Diseases.
And here's our Hari Sreenivasan
talking to him
about what we know
and what we don't know about
how children are affected
and the challenges that
posed to reopening schools.
>> Thanks, Christiane.
Dr. O'Leary,
thanks so much for joining us.
I want to ask kind of a
relatively simple question here.
What is the position of such
an important organization
of pediatricians when it comes
to school reopenings?
Because, in the past 10
or so days, we have kind
of heard two different things
that have confused
certainly a lot of parents.
I just want to look at a couple
of these statements here.
First was...
And then it was...
Lots of people
are in lots of different
places around the country.
Some have high rates
of COVID infections right now,
some do not.
What should we do,
according to pediatricians?
>> Yeah, I mean, we're in
a situation right now in the
U.S. where we're stuck between
two really not
very acceptable choices,
having kids either at home
because of COVID-19
or having them in school
in places where COVID-19
is circulating widely.
The AAP's position really came
out of the concept
of a lot of the schools
and districts
were looking for guidance around
how to safely reopen schools.
I think we're all on the same
page with pediatricians,
educators, et cetera,
that children
learn best in school.
And I don't think that's really
ever been in debate.
What we were seeing was that,
in a number of districts,
in May, even, they were already
making the decision to go
to online or hybrid models.
And, clearly, those had
negative impacts on children
in the short period of time
that schools were closed
in April and May.
So, that was where -- you know,
that was sort of the starting
point for the guidance.
On the other hand, though,
we also need to make sure
that everyone is safe.
That includes students,
teachers, and staff.
So,
in places where the virus
is really circulating widely,
as we're seeing in a number of
the Southern states right now,
it may not be safe to open
schools to in-person learning
in a meaningful fashion in terms
of having every child in school,
because if we're seeing
significant outbreaks
in the surrounding community,
there's no question we're going
to see outbreaks within schools,
no matter how many mitigation
measures are in place.
>> It totally makes sense
that a one-size-fits-all policy
won't work
for the entire country,
given our diverse geography,
our diverse public-health status
in the context of this crisis.
How does a school district
prepare for having
an influx of students
come into classrooms?
I mean, is it a certain number
that they're looking for
in their community --
"If the infection rate is below
X,
then let's go ahead and proceed,
and if the infection rates goes
above X in a week or two weeks,
then we have to scale back"?
When you are working with school
districts and pediatricians
are advising them,
what's the rule of thumb?
>> I think the most important
thing I could say about that is
we really need to do everything
we can locally
and within states,
as a country, to drive
infections down right now
if we want to safely reopen
schools in the fall.
Because if the virus
is circulating in a month
the way it is right now --
which in many cases
it probably will be --
it's really probably not going
to be safe to have
a large population of students
congregating.
On the other hand, if we are in
places where the virus has low
or very minimal circulation --
and there are various ways
that public-health officials
measure that --
I think it is going to be safe
to have a lot of
children in school.
And so that means with plenty
of mitigation measures in place,
such as cohorting students,
limiting the -- or setting
the space between the students,
mask wearing for most students,
probably certainly the older
students, certainly protections
for the teachers and the staff,
with as much physical distancing
as possible between adults,
mask wearing by adults
when they're anywhere near
other people.
Remember that the adults --
children certainly
can get sick with this illness,
but the adults
are at the highest risk.
>> So, tell me a little bit
about that.
What does the science show now
about how likely children
are to get it, to transmit it?
Because that's really one of the
core questions that people have,
is, "If I send my child
back to school,
what's the risk that my child
gets sick,
but also what's the danger that
my sick child poses to perhaps
their immunocompromised
or older teacher?"
>> In terms of what we know
about kids getting infected,
the thing that is fairly clear
is that kids
are less severely affected
with this virus than adults.
That doesn't mean
they don't get sick.
That doesn't mean that some
don't get very sick.
But it's clearly
much more severe in adults,
particularly older adults
and those with certain
medical conditions.
In terms of their risk
of getting infected,
what also appears
to be the case anyway --
and I say this today --
we're learning more every day,
and this may change in the
coming days as we learn more --
but what appears to be
the case is that children,
particularly younger children,
are both less likely
to get infected
and less likely to spread
the infection than adults.
And that does play a role
in sort of how we think about
having kids within the schools.
So what I mean by that
is there's this --
there's all this controversy
around the distance
between students.
And that was one of the things
that we tried to clarify a
little bit in the AAP's
guidance.
CDC says six feat, if feasible,
within schools between children.
In a lot of settings,
that's not really feasible.
So, when you look
at the incremental gain
that you get from six feet,
as opposed to five feet
or six feet,
and the alternative
of having a six-foot distance
is having children at home,
rather than in school,
there are so many downsides
to having the kids at home.
I mean, we can go into that,
if you'd like,
but there are many,
many downsides there.
And so is the incremental gain
of, say, six feet versus five
feet or four feet or even three
feet, is it worth it --
and particularly if you can get
the older children
to wear masks?
There is some evidence
that three feet
is actually pretty good.
Six feet is better,
but three feet is pretty good.
>> Let's talk a little bit about
some of the health effects
that are not so great
if children are stuck
at home doing remote learning.
I mean, I think a lot of parents
have started to figure
some of this out -- one,
how difficult teaching
is at home, how, actually,
it's hard to get education into
your children at the same time.
But what are some
of the downsides
to having children at home,
from a health perspective?
>> Let's start with a few of
the studies that we have
already seen come out.
So, some of the things
we have seen are that, one,
we have seen obesity come --
we have seen obesity increase,
even in the short period of time
that kids were at home.
We have seen food-insecurity
issues with kids.
We have seen increases in rates
of mental-health issues,
including anxiety,
depression, suicidality.
So, those are a number of things
that already are
a problem in society.
We don't have enough
behavioral-health support
already.
With those increasing,
it's just a perfect storm
for a really rough time
for a generation of children.
Besides that, I really think --
I have been thinking
through this all along,
"How is this going to impact
the most vulnerable
among our children
and families?"
Right?
How is it -- These children
who are already at risk,
who gain so much from being
in school, when they're --
when children living in poverty
at home, where
there are so many problems
with having them in the home
when parents are trying to work
or the parents have to be at
work, they don't have
childcare -- I don't even know
how that plays out.
And I know, certainly,
our district here in Denver
is trying to consider backup
plans for how we can handle
that if schools have to be
closed, but it's just --
it's an unfolding tragedy,
for sure.
>> So, Doctor, there seem to be
two things kind of
playing at the same time.
One is I can hear whatever
the public-health experts say,
and then there's my perception
of fear, which drives a
tremendous amount of
decision-making.
Until there's something close
to a vaccine,
there is still a massive hurdle
to overcome of just how scared
parents are for their children,
understandably so.
>> Yeah.
>> How do doctors deal with
that?
>> Yeah,
so, I mean, I do want to go back
to the point that that,
in general, children
do seem to do better
with this virus than adults.
I mean, I think that is
fairly well known.
I don't think
that's going to change.
I mean, we talked about some of
the uncertainty around that,
but I really
don't think that's --
I will be surprised if it turns
out that kids are more
severely affected than adults.
I think that's probably
not going to happen.
The way I have been thinking
about this for my own children,
because we will be facing
this decision, as well,
about having the kids in school,
is that, in a normal year,
they are exposed to lots of
different respiratory viruses.
We see surges
in hospitalizations.
We do see, unfortunately,
a number of deaths in children
from respiratory viruses
every year.
And what we saw with the surge
in hospitalizations in children
with coronavirus was actually
probably a little less
than what we see in a typical,
say, influenza year,
where we have hospitals
at capacity, children's
hospitals at capacity with kids
suffering from influenza.
So, when I think of it
in those terms, that,
yes, this is something
to worry about, it's absolutely
something to pay attention to,
for the children themselves,
the risks that we accept
as a society normally
are probably in the ballpark
of the risks that we are
going to be accepting
for our children with COVID-19.
There was a study that came out
several weeks ago
that tried to compare
the morbidity and mortality
of COVID-19 in children
to other things we normally
accept in society,
including influenza,
including trauma,
those types of things.
And the mortality
from COVID-19 -- this was,
I believe, done in Italy --
was actually quite a bit less
than those other things
that we normally accept,
knowingly or unknowingly.
So, that that's one of the
frameworks I have been
trying to think about it as,
as a parent.
I may be wrong about that.
It may turn out,
as more children are infected,
we see that it is more severe.
But I think that's the best
we can do right now.
The other thing that I think
we have to keep in mind
is that the local
public-health officials,
the state public-health
officials, the school officials,
they don't want to open schools
if it's not going to be safe.
And everyone
is working together,
at least where I am, to try and
make certain that that happens,
so putting all these mitigation
measures in place.
And so if we
are at a good place,
where the virus is not widely
circulating, there
may be some in the community,
there may be some level of risk,
but not high risk, yeah,
I'm going to be comfortable
sending my kids to school.
>> You know, I also want to ask
about vaccines.
Right now, we're already
in an era where
the World Health Organization
that says vaccine hesitancy
is one of the biggest problems
facing the planet.
And you already have, on social
media and other places,
people saying, "You know what?
When this vaccine comes out,
I'm not
going to give it to my kids,
I'm not going to take it."
You know a thing or two
about vaccines.
Tell me why that's not
a good idea.
>> First of all,
I want to mention the importance
of making sure kids are up
to date on their regular
childhood vaccines
for the coming year.
I mean, you, I'm sure,
are well aware
of all the measles outbreaks
that happened around the U.S.
in 2018-'19.
With our public-health
infrastructure stretched as it
is right now with COVID-19,
trying to handle a measles
outbreak or an outbreak
of another vaccine-preventable
disease right now would be --
it would make an ongoing
disaster even worse.
The second piece I should say
about that is,
if there's any year that you
you're going to get your child
and yourself
vaccinated for influenza,
this is the year to do it,
because it's difficult
to distinguish
between respiratory illnesses.
In influenza,
the symptoms
that children get have a lot
in common with the symptoms
that they get from COVID-19.
And so as much as we can do
to prevent the spread
of influenza this year,
that's going to be crucial.
Now, regarding a vaccine
for SARS-Co-V-2, yeah, I mean,
that's a tough question.
I think -- you know, I'll tell
you I have been involved in some
of the early discussions on that
and some of the planning around
how these are rolled out,
et cetera.
And the first consideration
among every person
that's involved in this,
from the
people running the trials,
the people evaluating
the trials, is safety.
And if a vaccine is not deemed
to be safe, it's not
going to be approved for use.
The other part of that is,
of course, we need to work
on our messaging.
I mean, I have been saying
for years that, as scientists
and public health professionals,
we need to do a better job
communicating the science
to the public.
It's not all about the facts.
We need to be better able
to convey those messages,
as opposed to just trying
to beat the public over the head
with, "These are the facts."
>> Are you concerned about
what would have otherwise
been routine pediatric care --
I mean the number of visits
that children have not taken
to doctors
over the past several months?
>> Yeah, that's a huge problem.
We noticed that right away.
I work with a lot of --
I was a primary-care
pediatrician for a long time,
and I work with a lot of
primary-care practices in my
research, and a lot of my
friends are in primary care now.
And it was dramatic, the drop
in both well-child visits
and in vaccines.
So, I think we have been working
here locally in Colorado --
I think we have been working on
it nationally, as well --
to try and get the point
across that, yes, you need
to go into your pediatrician.
The pediatrician's office
is safe.
And you certainly need to get up
to date on your vaccines.
So, pediatrician's offices
have been very creative
in the way that they have made
their offices safe spaces.
And the fact is
that there's very
there's very little
transmission within primary-care
settings of COVID-19, even when
there's virus circulating
in the community.
So, you know, PPE works.
Using face masks works.
Physical distancing works.
Some clinics have even taken to
doing their sick visits outside.
So, yes, absolutely, kids
need to be going into
their pediatrician.
I think the other part of that
that I will say that I think
is crucially important for us
to think about as a country
is that we're all aware
of all the small businesses
that are struggling right now
to stay open because
of the impacts of COVID-19 --
restaurants, et cetera.
Primary-care offices
are no different.
They are all struggling greatly,
and some have even shut
their doors already.
We really need to support
them from a --
at a federal level
to keep the doors open.
There was some funds to help
with that in the...
with the CARES Act, but they
need more.
It's a real problem, because
a lot of these practices
are on the verge
of bankruptcy at this point,
and I can't even imagine what
our healthcare infrastructure
will look like in this country
if we lose
our primary-care infrastructure.
>> Alright, Dr. Sean O'Leary,
American Academy of
Pediatricians.
Thanks so much for joining us.
>> Thank you very much.
>> And, finally, for his work
helping frontline healthcare
workers, arise, Sir Tom.
Today, the queen comes out
of lockdown to award
Captain Tom Moore
with a knighthood
for his extraordinary
fundraising efforts
that captured the hearts
of this nation and the world.
You may remember, back in April,
the 99-year-old war veteran
raised more than $40 million
for Britain's NHS.
He achieved this incredible feat
by racing to complete 100 laps
of his garden on his walker
frame before his 100th birthday.
This was during that time that
doctors and nurses were battling
the peak of the pandemic
and were seriously stretched.
He spoke about this honor,
though, on his way to meet
the queen at Windsor Castle.
>> Thank you.
>> It's amazing to see
this story end this way.
And the personal investiture is
the 94-year-old queen's
first official face-to-face
engagement since she went
into lockdown in March.
And, of course,
this honor befits
Captain Sir Thomas Moore's
lifelong service to his
country.
And that's it for our program
tonight.
Remember, you can follow me and
the show on Twitter.
Thanks for watching
"Amanpour & Company" on PBS, and
join us again next time.
