There’s a phenomenon of “destroy” videos
on Youtube, it seems that we love to watch
people have meltdowns when they’re verbally
bested.
Now we normally consider the person who did
the destroying to be the winner of those interactions.
But there is different take which I want to
examine today in this video.
And we’re going to be using Jordan Peterson
in his recent conversations with Sam Harris
as an example.
Now here is the problem in his own words,
Jordan: “you’re going to have contentious
discussions about how to move forward, and
it’s very frequently the case that your
words will be--that you’ll be straw-manned,
your words will be taken out of context, the
other person, and you too, will try to win instead
of trying to solve the problem”.
Winning an argument and even destroying the
other person isn’t the same as solving the
problem.
Worse, winning an argument can damage the
relationship if it isn’t done with tact.
So in this video, we’re going to look at
five tips from Dr. Peterson on how you can
win arguments without either person having
to get destroyed.
Now to be clear, there are times when Jordan
is going to be more aggressive or defensive,
and maybe I will do another video on those
type of point scoring debates if that’s
something you’re interested in.
But for now, the first tip that you need to
know is that you should begin most disagreements
by delineating not where you differ, but where
you agree.
Which is where Jordon started in his discussion
with Sam Harris in Vancouver, Jordan: “I
thought what I might do, is just lay out some
places that I think Sam and I agree and because
there’s lots of places we agree.”
And in this next clip and you’re going to
see concretely how calling out areas of agreement
can make someone more open to alternate viewpoints,
for context the student who’s asking the
question is pointing out what he perceives
to be a potential hole in Jordan Peterson’s
argument against hate speech laws.
Watch how Jordon responds and notice how the
student begins to nod, Student: “Feel as
if they can’t really engage in retaliatory
you know clarificatory discourse against them
because they fear the potential repercussions,
even if they don’t lead to violence, they
just fear it so much that it might irrationally
or rationally even drive them”, Jordan:
”Oh it happens, it happens all the time!
In fact, it’s the standard situation, you
know if you look across the world…”
Essentially Peterson spends the next two minutes
agreeing and expanding on the student’s
point.
Now the student nods through much of this
because Peterson is expanding on the issue
that the student himself raised.
The more that Jordan elaborates on the student’s
point, the more that he feels heard and understood.
What’s interesting is that when Jordan then
lays out a perspective the student hasn’t
considered before, the nodding continues,
Jordan: “And so the consequences of the
regulation become, incalculably worse as a
problem than the problem that they were designed
to deal with.
To think otherwise is to think in this sort
of Utopian manner”.
Now if Jordan just lept into what this student
had missed, that nodding probably would not
have been there and more importantly, the
student would not have been open to a new
idea.
But in laying out the points of agreement
and expanding on the point of the person that
you are speaking with, you actually create
more likely likelihood that they’re going
to open up to other perspectives.
When you’re trying to establish your points
of commonality or even you’re differences,
you don’t actually know for certain if you
understand what the other person thinks.
So what is best to speak in terms like these,
Jordan: “Okay so then, it also seems like
we agree that the core element of tribal alliance,
which would have its roots in the Chimpanzee…”
Jordan: “Well, you’re basically--what
you’ve basically stated, so far as I can
tell, there would be a socio-culture agreement…”
To be crystal clear you can’t just say “so
you’re saying” and then fill in the straw
man argument, we saw how that turned out in
the other video we did on Jordan Peterson.
You have to clarify the other person’s point
in a way that they would agree with.
Now when this is done in good faith, there
is a profound difference between using the
phrase “It seems like” and simply saying
“What you’re doing”.
“It seems like” invites correction and
it comes from a desire to engage in a dialogue,
rather than telling the other person what
logical leaps they’re making.
I also mentioned the phrase it seems like
in our last video on tells that you’re dealing
with an arrogant or person who is lacking
in confidence so if you want to know more
of those go ahead click below to check that
video out.
But you will eventually have to come to contentious
points of disagreement in your conversation
in your conversation, it’s inevitable.
And there is a number of ways to make your
stance clear without making the other person
feeling attacked.
You can begin, for instance, by establishing
your good intentions like this, Jordan: “What’s
the--and I’m not trying to trap you here
I’m seriously not”.
Jordan: “We’re on the same page there,
now but, what I noticed when you wrote the
moral landscape, and I’m not trying to trap
you, you tell a story about…”
It’s counter to instinct, but you need to
come back to this feeling of not wanting to
trap the other person and you need to do it
often.
When you say this congruently it diffuses
the core issue with most arguments, which
is we so easily become identified with our
views, after all, they're OUR views.
So when those views are attacked and dismantled,
we as individuals feel attacked and dismantled.
This does sound extreme but being trapped
in an argument can feel like being trapped
by a predator.
This brings us to point four, you need to
separate your ego and the other person’s
ego from the views that you had when you entered
the discussion.
This is hard!
It means recognizing that your views aren't
really yours.
You picked them up from somewhere and you
can change them without losing an essential
part of yourself.
Non-identification with your opinions is a
huge topic that's bigger than this video
because it's going to affect everything from
arguing, your general level of life satisfaction
and many more things.
But for the purpose of this video, make it
clear that you’re not attacking the person.
You are merely disagreeing with a particular
perspective and here’s an excellent phrase
to help you do that, Jordan: “The problem
I have with your argument, and this isn’t--I
don’t mean that you’re wrong, I see what
you’re doing and I see why you’re doing
it, and as far as I can tell is laudable.
But the problem is, as far as I can tell,
there’s problems it doesn’t solve and
there’s other problems it leaves unaddressed
that don’t have to be unsolved or unaddressed”.
This is especially effective because deep
down people are terrified of being wrong,
the existential feeling of being wrong for
the world is one of the deepest and most common
human insecurities.
That’s why we cling to our stuff, our identities
and our arguments.
If they are right, we feel like we must be
right.
So in saying that “I have an issue with
the argument” and by the way in saying
“the argument” as opposed to “your argument”
is wise because in saying that you make it
clear that you don’t think the individual
is tied to that argument.
When you do that you’re saying that the
individual themselves isn’t wrong, you avoid
triggering their ego and its defense mechanisms
and you hopefully keep things calm and productive.
This is a pattern of validating the individual,
and the same pattern is going to play it with
specific objections that they might raise
up against your points like this, Sam: “Then
there must be a deeper level of reality that
explains why they both work that can’t be
reducible to Christianity being true or being
Hinduism being true.”
Jordan: “Yeah that’s--look Sam that’s
a--there’s absolutely nothing wrong with
that objection.”
And you’ll make the other person feel understood
and open to change by noting your own willingness
to reconsider your own opinions, like this, Jordan: 
“One of the things that I’ve been re-considering
since we talked last night, is the nature
of our dispute about the relationship between…”
but rather than belabor these points let me
make one larger distinction that ties them
all together.
In order to win in any argument, the best
thing you can do is not identify with “your
perspective”.
Instead realize that you are improved on your
deeply held perspectives are challenged to
the point of breaking and even when the person
you’re talking isn’t so nice about it,
Jordan: “And so one of the things you have
to remember when you’re discussing things
with people, even if they’re out to defeat
you let’s say, is that there is some glimmering
of the possibility that you could walk away
with more knowledge that you walked in with,
and that’s worth--that can be worth paying
quite a price for”.
Actually internalizing the mindset is a massive
undertaking, meditation helps, even so, you’re
likely to slip back into defending your ego
attachments, it’s part of being human.
But If you can manage to try to have to conversation
with a truly curious mentality the relationship
will go better, you’re going to be more
likely to be persuasive if you raise valid
points and you just might learn something.
So if you take only one thing from this video
before enduring your next argument, discussion,
debate, whatever you like to call it.
I’d advise it to be this, ask yourself “Do
I want to be BE RIGHT?
Or do I want to do what it takes to GET IT
RIGHT?”.
You might not destroy anyone with that mentality
but you're going to win the argument because
you’re going to walk away with a clearer
understanding of the truth.
Now I think a huge reason that Jordan is capable
of being so calm during these interactions
is that of his time as a clinician, he learned
to listen and help people who often feel attacked.
If you feel like you often don’t get the
chance to speak to people who genuinely just
listen without an agenda to defeat, trap,
or impose their view of how you should live
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So I hope that you enjoyed this video, if
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look forward to seeing you in the next one.
Actually, I forgot, one other thing, if you
want to see that video on debates that might
be more point scoring televised, feel free
to let me know in the comments.
I’m not definitely going to do it because
it's not a situation that we often find ourselves
in, but if it’s one you’re interested
in go ahead and let me know in the comments
and maybe I can do it.
Take care!
