
English: 
 
Tthis event is the first in the new
Wheeler Centre series, Broadly Speaking –
a collaboration between the Wheeler
Centre, the State Library of Queensland

English: 
 
Tthis event is the first in the new
Wheeler Centre series, Broadly Speaking –
a collaboration between the Wheeler
Centre, the State Library of Queensland

English: 
and the RMIT
Social and Global Studies Centre. It's
supported by Krystyna Campbell-Pretty
AM
and family. Today's conversation is
taking place across
unceded sovereign land. The event stream
comes to you from the Wheeler Centre
on the lands of the Kulin Nation. I'm
speaking to you from Canada
in Treaty 6 territory, homelands of
First Nations and Metis people.
Distinguished Professor Aileen Moreton-Robinson joins us
from the lands of the Turrbal and
Jagera people.
We pay respects to these communities'
elders past,
present and emerging, and to the elders
of all communities and cultures
that this conversation reaches.
Distinguished Professor Aileen Moreton-
Robinson is a Goenpul woman
of the Quandamooka people in Moreton Bay,
and she's a Professor
of Indigenous Research at RMIT
University.
She was appointed as Australia's first
Indigenous Distinguished Professor
in 2016 and was a founding member of the

English: 
and the RMIT
Social and Global Studies Centre. It's
supported by Krystyna Campbell-Pretty
AM
and family. Today's conversation is
taking place across
unceded sovereign land. The event stream
comes to you from the Wheeler Centre
on the lands of the Kulin Nation. I'm
speaking to you from Canada
in Treaty 6 territory, homelands of
First Nations and Metis people.
Distinguished Professor Aileen Moreton-Robinson joins us
from the lands of the Turrbal and
Jagera people.
We pay respects to these communities'
elders past,
present and emerging, and to the elders
of all communities and cultures
that this conversation reaches.
Distinguished Professor Aileen Moreton-
Robinson is a Goenpul woman
of the Quandamooka people in Moreton Bay,
and she's a Professor
of Indigenous Research at RMIT
University.
She was appointed as Australia's first
Indigenous Distinguished Professor
in 2016 and was a founding member of the

English: 
Native American and Indigenous Studies
Association.
She's the author of Talkin' Up to the
White Woman: Indigenous Property,
Indigenous Women and Feminism, by
University of Queensland Press;
The White Possessive: Property, Power and
Indigenous Sovereignty
by Minnesota Press, and she's the editor
of several books
including critical Indigenous Studies
Engagements in First World Locations
from University of Arizona Press, and in
2020, this year,
she was appointed a member of the
American Academy of Arts and Sciences –
the first ever Australian Indigenous
scholar
to be elected. I'm really grateful to
Professor Bronwyn Fredericks, Pro Vice-
Chancellor of Indigenous Engagement
at the University of Queensland. She
presented some bibliometric data in a
recent speech, celebrating
Aileen's contribution to Australia's
intellectual life.
Talkin' Up to the White Woman has been
nominated for multiple awards. It has

English: 
Native American and Indigenous Studies
Association.
She's the author of Talkin' Up to the
White Woman: Indigenous Property,
Indigenous Women and Feminism, by
University of Queensland Press;
The White Possessive: Property, Power and
Indigenous Sovereignty
by Minnesota Press, and she's the editor
of several books
including critical Indigenous Studies
Engagements in First World Locations
from University of Arizona Press, and in
2020, this year,
she was appointed a member of the
American Academy of Arts and Sciences –
the first ever Australian Indigenous
scholar
to be elected. I'm really grateful to
Professor Bronwyn Fredericks, Pro Vice-
Chancellor of Indigenous Engagement
at the University of Queensland. She
presented some bibliometric data in a
recent speech, celebrating
Aileen's contribution to Australia's
intellectual life.
Talkin' Up to the White Woman has been
nominated for multiple awards. It has

English: 
never been out of print in 20 years,
it has over a thousand citations and is
in collections
of at least 340 libraries all over the
world.
It's also taught in universities all
over the world.
Bronwyn also noted that Aileen was the
22nd
Aboriginal person in Australia to get a
PhD, and only the 12th in a field other
than theology.
Speaking from the standpoint of a
non-indigenous queer white woman
academic, I want to introduce
Aileen not only as
an academic at the height of her powers,
but also as a public intellectual. Now,
there are many definitions of a public
intellectual.
The one I use here is someone who is
well trained
in one or more academic disciplines, but
is not subservient to them.
That is, Aileen is someone whose work
creatively engages academic theories and
methods
together with knowledge gained from her
experience and the collective knowledge
traditions,

English: 
never been out of print in 20 years,
it has over a thousand citations and is
in collections
of at least 340 libraries all over the
world.
It's also taught in universities all
over the world.
Bronwyn also noted that Aileen was the
22nd
Aboriginal person in Australia to get a
PhD, and only the 12th in a field other
than theology.
Speaking from the standpoint of a
non-indigenous queer white woman
academic, I want to introduce
Aileen not only as
an academic at the height of her powers,
but also as a public intellectual. Now,
there are many definitions of a public
intellectual.
The one I use here is someone who is
well trained
in one or more academic disciplines, but
is not subservient to them.
That is, Aileen is someone whose work
creatively engages academic theories and
methods
together with knowledge gained from her
experience and the collective knowledge
traditions,

English: 
and she's able to present a vision of
the world that I think can help us
survive and even thrive
in these most challenging times.
Okay, um, Aileen – I'm going to stop talking
about you
and start talking with you!
When we first met, which was over 20
years ago,
I was a newly-minted PhD who attended a
conference
at Griffith University that you
organised.
Something powerful happened to me after
participating in an academic conference
that put non-indigenous people into
conversation
with Indigenous academics professionals
and activists.
After that conference, we were invited to
dinner with some of the academics
involved,
several of whom were other queer white
women. You joined me outside to have a
smoke,
as we did in those days, and shortly
after sitting down,
you said … 'I think I'm colonising the
lesbians.' [laughs]
And at that point 21 years ago

English: 
and she's able to present a vision of
the world that I think can help us
survive and even thrive
in these most challenging times.
Okay, um, Aileen – I'm going to stop talking
about you
and start talking with you!
When we first met, which was over 20
years ago,
I was a newly-minted PhD who attended a
conference
at Griffith University that you
organised.
Something powerful happened to me after
participating in an academic conference
that put non-indigenous people into
conversation
with Indigenous academics professionals
and activists.
After that conference, we were invited to
dinner with some of the academics
involved,
several of whom were other queer white
women. You joined me outside to have a
smoke,
as we did in those days, and shortly
after sitting down,
you said … 'I think I'm colonising the
lesbians.' [laughs]
And at that point 21 years ago

English: 
our friendship began.
Before that conference, I'd understood
whiteness
both as a serious problem for Indigenous
and other Australians who weren't
racialised as white,
and as an identity that could be worn
with more or less pride,
more or less shame or guilt. After that
conference,
whiteness became visible to me as an
object of research,
and as something which we all needed to
take a stand on in our everyday lives as
well as our professional
careers. Having seen whiteness,
I couldn't unsee whiteness, and this
meant I had to be
prepared to change my ways of knowing
and being in the academy,
and in the world. Once the subject
position 'middle class white woman'
became
visible as a research problem, I was able
to work in a different way.
Not only as a researcher, but also as a
teacher and as a non-indigenous partner,
working on projects related to
Indigenous knowledge, that have reached

English: 
our friendship began.
Before that conference, I'd understood
whiteness
both as a serious problem for Indigenous
and other Australians who weren't
racialised as white,
and as an identity that could be worn
with more or less pride,
more or less shame or guilt. After that
conference,
whiteness became visible to me as an
object of research,
and as something which we all needed to
take a stand on in our everyday lives as
well as our professional
careers. Having seen whiteness,
I couldn't unsee whiteness, and this
meant I had to be
prepared to change my ways of knowing
and being in the academy,
and in the world. Once the subject
position 'middle class white woman'
became
visible as a research problem, I was able
to work in a different way.
Not only as a researcher, but also as a
teacher and as a non-indigenous partner,
working on projects related to
Indigenous knowledge, that have reached

English: 
thousands of people.
This work is never easy or comfortable.
It can be fun!
Um, it always requires me to recognise
and deal with my ignorance before I can
offer
any expertise. It requires me to
understand and to account for the fact
that I am never thinking and
acting only as an individual, but also
and always as part of an
intergenerational
and institutionalised set of discourses
that operate
to rationalise and defend, sometimes
violently,
the sovereignty of white possession in
Australia.
So even as I work to undo injustices,
I always do so as part of a system that
invests in the dispossession
of Indigenous territories, cultures,
languages and knowledges. And just one
example this is our legal system.
It enables a culture of impunity
for offenders and violators of

English: 
thousands of people.
This work is never easy or comfortable.
It can be fun!
Um, it always requires me to recognise
and deal with my ignorance before I can
offer
any expertise. It requires me to
understand and to account for the fact
that I am never thinking and
acting only as an individual, but also
and always as part of an
intergenerational
and institutionalised set of discourses
that operate
to rationalise and defend, sometimes
violently,
the sovereignty of white possession in
Australia.
So even as I work to undo injustices,
I always do so as part of a system that
invests in the dispossession
of Indigenous territories, cultures,
languages and knowledges. And just one
example this is our legal system.
It enables a culture of impunity
for offenders and violators of

English: 
Indigenous sovereign countries,
knowledges and bodies.
So Aboriginal kids can be locked up for …
as juvenile offenders for things like
graffiti tagging or driving without a
license,
but when white ceos of mining companies
drop the ball
on Aboriginal heritage protections and
literally
detonate and obliterate spaces of
Indigenous history,
spirituality and knowledge, part of their
million dollar bonuses are removed.
Such corporate acts of ethnicide remind
us
that the problems that Talkin' Up to the
White Woman addressed 20 years ago
remain very much, and very literally,
part of our landscape.
I want to begin early in your academic
career.
And I wondered, Distinguished Professor,
if you would tell me
a little bit about your research journey
as an undergraduate

English: 
Indigenous sovereign countries,
knowledges and bodies.
So Aboriginal kids can be locked up for …
as juvenile offenders for things like
graffiti tagging or driving without a
license,
but when white ceos of mining companies
drop the ball
on Aboriginal heritage protections and
literally
detonate and obliterate spaces of
Indigenous history,
spirituality and knowledge, part of their
million dollar bonuses are removed.
Such corporate acts of ethnicide remind
us
that the problems that Talkin' Up to the
White Woman addressed 20 years ago
remain very much, and very literally,
part of our landscape.
I want to begin early in your academic
career.
And I wondered, Distinguished Professor,
if you would tell me
a little bit about your research journey
as an undergraduate

English: 
and honours student. What were the
disciplines that you studied at the
Australian National University?
What did you learn from your studies
there? What do you think your teachers
learned from you?
Thank you, Fi – easy question!
Okay, so I basically studied
sociology and anthropology.
I was the only Indigenous
student as an undergraduate in 1985
at the ANU, the Australian National
University.
I
began uni with basically a
a year 7 education – I
failed everything at a high school –
so I had to teach myself
to read and write,
basically, for the academy.

English: 
and honours student. What were the
disciplines that you studied at the
Australian National University?
What did you learn from your studies
there? What do you think your teachers
learned from you?
Thank you, Fi – easy question!
Okay, so I basically studied
sociology and anthropology.
I was the only Indigenous
student as an undergraduate in 1985
at the ANU, the Australian National
University.
I
began uni with basically a
a year 7 education – I
failed everything at a high school –
so I had to teach myself
to read and write,
basically, for the academy.

English: 
Um, and
I was absolutely petrified, I guess,
of being there, because I felt this was
the last
chance that I had to become qualified,
in some way shape or form,
and I was there because I really wanted
to learn about white knowledge,
white people. It was
something that I worked out as an
activist –
that I didn't know enough …
I didn't know enough about them,
and I didn't know enough about their
knowledge.
So my entering the university
was really to find out about
society, which is why I took sociology,
and I wanted to know about anthropology,

English: 
Um, and
I was absolutely petrified, I guess,
of being there, because I felt this was
the last
chance that I had to become qualified,
in some way shape or form,
and I was there because I really wanted
to learn about white knowledge,
white people. It was
something that I worked out as an
activist –
that I didn't know enough …
I didn't know enough about them,
and I didn't know enough about their
knowledge.
So my entering the university
was really to find out about
society, which is why I took sociology,
and I wanted to know about anthropology,

English: 
in terms of how anthropology had
constructed us.
So I was acutely aware in that political
sense of
why I was there, and what I was supposed
to learn.
And I think one of the
first things I learned was,
um, how to reach … I didn't know how to get
six thousand words down to a thousand
for the first
essay I had to write. And, uh, so I went
along to the
English as a Second Language unit
to … to talk to
Brigid Ballard, who was
in charge of the unit, because I thought
there was something wrong with me, and
maybe
I didn't understand and I probably
shouldn't be there.
Um, anyway, so she … she read my essay and
then

English: 
in terms of how anthropology had
constructed us.
So I was acutely aware in that political
sense of
why I was there, and what I was supposed
to learn.
And I think one of the
first things I learned was,
um, how to reach … I didn't know how to get
six thousand words down to a thousand
for the first
essay I had to write. And, uh, so I went
along to the
English as a Second Language unit
to … to talk to
Brigid Ballard, who was
in charge of the unit, because I thought
there was something wrong with me, and
maybe
I didn't understand and I probably
shouldn't be there.
Um, anyway, so she … she read my essay and
then

English: 
she just smiled. And she said, look,
this is really amazing but what you've
got to
learn to do is not to consider the
relationships between
everything, and you're going to have to
separate,
you know, and disassociate. And
so, um, I … when she said that to me, it was
like
the light bulb went on. And I
realised what I needed to do. So …
I did it. But I also kind of understood
during that
first year, um …
that I was … 
having an ontological or, well, an
existential crisis, I guess,
in the sense that I could see that I
really had to
think differently to the way in which

English: 
she just smiled. And she said, look,
this is really amazing but what you've
got to
learn to do is not to consider the
relationships between
everything, and you're going to have to
separate,
you know, and disassociate. And
so, um, I … when she said that to me, it was
like
the light bulb went on. And I
realised what I needed to do. So …
I did it. But I also kind of understood
during that
first year, um …
that I was … 
having an ontological or, well, an
existential crisis, I guess,
in the sense that I could see that I
really had to
think differently to the way in which

English: 
I had been raised,
and the kind of cultural logics that
informed
my being and doing in the world.
And that was … so … 
so, I guess at one level, my experience
was different to
other undergrads that were around me,
because they were all kind of
concerned with the knowledge that we're
being taught.
So what … 'these are the theories', whereas I
was
realising that there were things that
informed the theories, rather
than, like … I could most of the time
understand the theories, the logics of
the theories themselves.
But I didn't kind of understand how
these things got built,
and … So going through the ANU,
because it was it was an amazing
experience in the sense that I
witnessed some of the best debates in my

English: 
I had been raised,
and the kind of cultural logics that
informed
my being and doing in the world.
And that was … so … 
so, I guess at one level, my experience
was different to
other undergrads that were around me,
because they were all kind of
concerned with the knowledge that we're
being taught.
So what … 'these are the theories', whereas I
was
realising that there were things that
informed the theories, rather
than, like … I could most of the time
understand the theories, the logics of
the theories themselves.
But I didn't kind of understand how
these things got built,
and … So going through the ANU,
because it was it was an amazing
experience in the sense that I
witnessed some of the best debates in my

English: 
life between,
um, academics – ah, Jack
Barbalet and Barry Hindess, for example,
um … I engaged mainly with the professors.
I didn't really debate with students
that were in the class with me and I
wasn't even consciously aware
of that,
and it wasn't until, ah, I met up with a
friend – Ian Coates, we'd gone to uni
together – and
he said to me, he said, oh we all knew you
were going to be a professor and I said,
well, I didn't think I was going to be a
professor. And he said, oh well, we all
knew. He said, because you were the only
one that would debate with them!
And I thought, did I? And he said, oh
yeah;
he said, we … we knew we didn't really have
to do a lot of work because we could go
in the room
and just watch you engage with
with them! And I thought about it, and

English: 
life between,
um, academics – ah, Jack
Barbalet and Barry Hindess, for example,
um … I engaged mainly with the professors.
I didn't really debate with students
that were in the class with me and I
wasn't even consciously aware
of that,
and it wasn't until, ah, I met up with a
friend – Ian Coates, we'd gone to uni
together – and
he said to me, he said, oh we all knew you
were going to be a professor and I said,
well, I didn't think I was going to be a
professor. And he said, oh well, we all
knew. He said, because you were the only
one that would debate with them!
And I thought, did I? And he said, oh
yeah;
he said, we … we knew we didn't really have
to do a lot of work because we could go
in the room
and just watch you engage with
with them! And I thought about it, and

English: 
I thought: you know, that's absolutely
right! I did do that.
And I was kind of like, wasn't even
conscious that that's what I was doing.
Because I was so … wanting to, to learn
and understand,
but … and I didn't think i'd be become
an academic.
Um, that again is a … another story. But
I didn't understand when I'd been
offered honours in, you know, three
disciplines in the first year, that …
um, I didn't understand what honours was,
and I tried to get clarification. Anyway,
finally, um, somebody kind of did give me
clarification.
I still didn't want to do honours, but
then,
you know, my husband said to me, well
you know,
like … you, you don't have to go down that
road
if you don't want to, but why don't you
just do it because you can?
And I did. So I graduated with first
class honours

English: 
I thought: you know, that's absolutely
right! I did do that.
And I was kind of like, wasn't even
conscious that that's what I was doing.
Because I was so … wanting to, to learn
and understand,
but … and I didn't think i'd be become
an academic.
Um, that again is a … another story. But
I didn't understand when I'd been
offered honours in, you know, three
disciplines in the first year, that …
um, I didn't understand what honours was,
and I tried to get clarification. Anyway,
finally, um, somebody kind of did give me
clarification.
I still didn't want to do honours, but
then,
you know, my husband said to me, well
you know,
like … you, you don't have to go down that
road
if you don't want to, but why don't you
just do it because you can?
And I did. So I graduated with first
class honours

English: 
out of the ANU in Sociology
and won an APA
and started actually a PhD
on citizenship. But then because, you
know, I was a mature age student with a
mortgage and stuff, I had to leave that
one. But my
entrance into the academy,
um, really
took off I guess after the book, and that
was the appointment
at … in Women's Studies
at Flinders University. But I have never
been able to secure a job in sociology.
And have never been interviewed for a
job, and … despite of
applying … because I'm told that I'm
not a sociologist, and

English: 
out of the ANU in Sociology
and won an APA
and started actually a PhD
on citizenship. But then because, you
know, I was a mature age student with a
mortgage and stuff, I had to leave that
one. But my
entrance into the academy,
um, really
took off I guess after the book, and that
was the appointment
at … in Women's Studies
at Flinders University. But I have never
been able to secure a job in sociology.
And have never been interviewed for a
job, and … despite of
applying … because I'm told that I'm
not a sociologist, and

English: 
I find that often very interesting
because I
see people with undergraduate degrees in
social work,
and they do a PhD in sociology and then
they … be …
they're understood as a sociologist.
And yet the work is quite mediocre and
you can see it, because
they don't have that, ah, ground … that
theoretical grounding that you get in an
undergraduate,
you know. Programme. And in an honours
programme.
Anyway, I have always in that sense
therefore been contained, you know …
women's studies was
something I did. I taught justice studies
but mainly
I couldn't get jobs other than
in Indigenous studies, despite the fact I
didn't do Indigenous studies
as as an undergraduate. You know. And
that's
that's fundamentally a statement or an
indictment

English: 
I find that often very interesting
because I
see people with undergraduate degrees in
social work,
and they do a PhD in sociology and then
they … be …
they're understood as a sociologist.
And yet the work is quite mediocre and
you can see it, because
they don't have that, ah, ground … that
theoretical grounding that you get in an
undergraduate,
you know. Programme. And in an honours
programme.
Anyway, I have always in that sense
therefore been contained, you know …
women's studies was
something I did. I taught justice studies
but mainly
I couldn't get jobs other than
in Indigenous studies, despite the fact I
didn't do Indigenous studies
as as an undergraduate. You know. And
that's
that's fundamentally a statement or an
indictment

English: 
on the racist logics that informs
what Aboriginal scholars can be or can't
be.
So even though we can go through and
basically
be, you know … w-we're in mainstream, we
get a mainstream degree – this is not an
Aboriginal degree –
um, but once you come out the other end
the only thing you can do
is Indigenous studies.
Um, you know and I … I–
I mean how does that work, you know,
other than through racism? 
And so when they talk about,
you know, trying to recruit Indigenous
scholars to universities,
what they mean is we want to recruit
Indigenous students to
universities, ah, in Indigenous studies.
Right? We don't want to
employ Indigenous scholars who graduate

English: 
on the racist logics that informs
what Aboriginal scholars can be or can't
be.
So even though we can go through and
basically
be, you know … w-we're in mainstream, we
get a mainstream degree – this is not an
Aboriginal degree –
um, but once you come out the other end
the only thing you can do
is Indigenous studies.
Um, you know and I … I–
I mean how does that work, you know,
other than through racism?
And so when they talk about,
you know, trying to recruit Indigenous
scholars to universities,
what they mean is we want to recruit
Indigenous students to
universities, ah, in Indigenous studies.
Right? We don't want to
employ Indigenous scholars who graduate

English: 
in education to teach,
you know, early childhood.
Um … you know, we just have to give them
the subject
of Indigenous and early childhood to
teach.
So, even the way in which we
are understood
as scholars is very much through the
prism of race.
And has been–
–Thank you!–
– So: I guess that speaks to the journey.
Yeah, no, that's a really um … I think it
tells us a lot.
And I think it tells us a lot about, um,
Talkin' Up to the White Woman and
certain aspects of its reception, which
we might talk about later.
But just that challenge
where the

English: 
in education to teach,
you know, early childhood.
Um … you know, we just have to give them
the subject
of Indigenous and early childhood to
teach.
So, even the way in which we
are understood
as scholars is very much through the
prism of race.
And has been–
–Thank you!–
– So: I guess that speaks to the journey.
Yeah, no, that's a really um … I think it
tells us a lot.
And I think it tells us a lot about, um,
Talkin' Up to the White Woman and
certain aspects of its reception, which
we might talk about later.
But just that challenge
where the

English: 
centre of your expertise is on
social constructions of gender and in
particular, the subject position
of the middle class white woman, and how
that pervades
discourses and institutions throughout
Australia, and that you can understand
given that background,
the challenge that was. Um, so I want to
talk about the really innovative
structure
of Talkin' Up to the White Woman, because
by then you had
absolutely hit your strides and you've
never looked back.
And just to familiarise
readers with this book, it begins with an
explanation of Indigenous women's
identity and relationality,
and moves through Indigenous women's
life writings
to explore the persistence of an
anthropological gaze
through white feminist debates on
violence
against Indigenous women within

English: 
centre of your expertise is on
social constructions of gender and in
particular, the subject position
of the middle class white woman, and how
that pervades
discourses and institutions throughout
Australia, and that you can understand
given that background,
the challenge that was. Um, so I want to
talk about the really innovative
structure
of Talkin' Up to the White Woman, because
by then you had
absolutely hit your strides and you've
never looked back.
And just to familiarise
readers with this book, it begins with an
explanation of Indigenous women's
identity and relationality,
and moves through Indigenous women's
life writings
to explore the persistence of an
anthropological gaze
through white feminist debates on
violence
against Indigenous women within

English: 
Indigenous communities – um, the
Bell-Huggins debate. Then it moves
on
to demonstrate the invisibility of the
subject position
'middle class white woman' to white
feminists who are engaged in anti-racist
teaching and advocacy,
and the book concludes with an overview
of the national
and international human rights activism
of Indigenous women over generations.
And just thinking about that structure,
it's almost like there's this
containment
of this subject position of the middle
class white woman
that has shaped white feminism so much.
And what you seem to do is frame
that subject within this sustained,
detailed and generous education
about the history and experiences of
Indigenous women,
both in their everyday lives through the
life narratives – as domestic servants, as
mothers, as daughters,

English: 
Indigenous communities – um, the
Bell-Huggins debate. Then it moves
on
to demonstrate the invisibility of the
subject position
'middle class white woman' to white
feminists who are engaged in anti-racist
teaching and advocacy,
and the book concludes with an overview
of the national
and international human rights activism
of Indigenous women over generations.
And just thinking about that structure,
it's almost like there's this
containment
of this subject position of the middle
class white woman
that has shaped white feminism so much.
And what you seem to do is frame
that subject within this sustained,
detailed and generous education
about the history and experiences of
Indigenous women,
both in their everyday lives through the
life narratives – as domestic servants, as
mothers, as daughters,

English: 
and as friends – and in their expression
of Indigenous sovereignty in the various
contexts
of state, national and international
political forums.
So in addition to, um …
I guess centring the knowledge work of
Indigenous women,
there's I think an understanding
that white feminist discourses on gender
tend to efface
the operation of race, except when race
is referred to as
an expression of an ethnic or Indigenous
cultural difference that can be
celebrated,
or included, at least, as part of a
national story.
And another thing I noticed rereading
this book
is that you never simply … um, simplify the
broad political
project of feminism. And that there's
quite a detailed,
very detailed account of first wave,
second wave, socialist,

English: 
and as friends – and in their expression
of Indigenous sovereignty in the various
contexts
of state, national and international
political forums.
So in addition to, um …
I guess centring the knowledge work of
Indigenous women,
there's I think an understanding
that white feminist discourses on gender
tend to efface
the operation of race, except when race
is referred to as
an expression of an ethnic or Indigenous
cultural difference that can be
celebrated,
or included, at least, as part of a
national story.
And another thing I noticed rereading
this book
is that you never simply … um, simplify the
broad political
project of feminism. And that there's
quite a detailed,
very detailed account of first wave,
second wave, socialist,

English: 
Marxist, post-structuralist, postmodern,
women of colour,
queer and eco-feminisms.
Not only does that make your book one of
the earliest
intersectional studies of
gender politics, I think this complexity
informs your analysis
in important ways. Navigating through
these feminisms.
So what I wanted to ask you, is you're
reflecting 20 years later
on subsequent work on Indigenous women
and feminism. What do you see
as some of the most important
methodological
and theoretical innovations of Talkin'
Up to the White Woman?
Right. I think that
the methodological innovation of it
is that I tried to basically,
um, create a

English: 
Marxist, post-structuralist, postmodern,
women of colour,
queer and eco-feminisms.
Not only does that make your book one of
the earliest
intersectional studies of
gender politics, I think this complexity
informs your analysis
in important ways. Navigating through
these feminisms.
So what I wanted to ask you, is you're
reflecting 20 years later
on subsequent work on Indigenous women
and feminism. What do you see
as some of the most important
methodological
and theoretical innovations of Talkin'
Up to the White Woman?
Right. I think that
the methodological innovation of it
is that I tried to basically,
um, create a

English: 
an inter-discourse
entanglement. And I've
structured the book so that chapters
spoke to one another
as you moved through, with the thread
of middle class white woman being woven
through them, because that is the subject
position
that we are measured against and by.
I think that at the time,
I was trying to really
bring things into conversation
to not only, I guess,
inform white feminists about
Indigenous women's issues and positions,
but also Indigenous women's positions in
relation to feminism.
So it was to create
a … um … I guess,

English: 
an inter-discourse
entanglement. And I've
structured the book so that chapters
spoke to one another
as you moved through, with the thread
of middle class white woman being woven
through them, because that is the subject
position
that we are measured against and by.
I think that at the time,
I was trying to really
bring things into conversation
to not only, I guess,
inform white feminists about
Indigenous women's issues and positions,
but also Indigenous women's positions in
relation to feminism.
So it was to create
a … um … I guess,

English: 
in some ways, a dialectic which never
really
came off. And I put that down probably to
the Marxist training,
and I'll hold Jack Barbalet
responsible for that.
So I think that I tried to pursue
an innovative methodology where
Indigenous knowledges are
operationalised.
But I also wanted to show that my
training,
you know, as a sociologist,
ah, was being operationalised.
And for those two things to come
together. Hence,
you know, I started to talk about
standpoint
in the beginning of the book, which
I've subsequently
expanded in, in work in later years.
But it – it's a book that

English: 
in some ways, a dialectic which never
really
came off. And I put that down probably to
the Marxist training,
and I'll hold Jack Barbalet
responsible for that.
So I think that I tried to pursue
an innovative methodology where
Indigenous knowledges are
operationalised.
But I also wanted to show that my
training,
you know, as a sociologist,
ah, was being operationalised.
And for those two things to come
together. Hence,
you know, I started to talk about
standpoint
in the beginning of the book, which
I've subsequently
expanded in, in work in later years.
But it – it's a book that

English: 
I might add, it's actually a book I wrote
in … or, that dissertation was two years,
So when I was immersed in it, I was
totally immersed in it. And
I again wanted to know and understand.
But I wanted to bring knowledge and
understanding
to those that actually would read it. So
it was …
as much as it was a
intellectual intervention and a new way
of doing discourse analysis,
it was also, um, a way …
a politics was to bring
women into conversation.
Um, yeah. I was thinking about
building on that point with the title
itself.
Because I think the title suggests a

English: 
I might add, it's actually a book I wrote
in … or, that dissertation was two years,
So when I was immersed in it, I was
totally immersed in it. And
I again wanted to know and understand.
But I wanted to bring knowledge and
understanding
to those that actually would read it. So
it was …
as much as it was a
intellectual intervention and a new way
of doing discourse analysis,
it was also, um, a way …
a politics was to bring
women into conversation.
Um, yeah. I was thinking about
building on that point with the title
itself.
Because I think the title suggests a

English: 
different kind of relationship
to academic knowledge and communication.
You're not
talking 'as', you're not talking 'for', you're
not talking 'from',
you're not talking 'with'. And I think that
really stages this political
relationship
that's at the heart of this challenge
to a certain, um,
… to a whole lot of white feminist
knowledges
and activisms. I just want to ask you
about how you imagine the audiences for
Talkin' Up to the White Woman,
you know, in those two years when you're
just immersed to it and and writing it.
And, you know, were there some audience
that
were most important for you to reach? And
you know, what surprised you most about
the responses of some of the actual
audiences,
um, to to the book? Right.
Yeah, what happens when you talk up? So
the audience that I really wanted to

English: 
different kind of relationship
to academic knowledge and communication.
You're not
talking 'as', you're not talking 'for', you're
not talking 'from',
you're not talking 'with'. And I think that
really stages this political
relationship
that's at the heart of this challenge
to a certain, um,
… to a whole lot of white feminist
knowledges
and activisms. I just want to ask you
about how you imagine the audiences for
Talkin' Up to the White Woman,
you know, in those two years when you're
just immersed to it and and writing it.
And, you know, were there some audience
that
were most important for you to reach? And
you know, what surprised you most about
the responses of some of the actual
audiences,
um, to to the book? Right.
Yeah, what happens when you talk up? So
the audience that I really wanted to

English: 
reach was Indigenous women.
You know, I wanted to celebrate the
amazing strengths
and knowledge production
of Aboriginal women and to
put quite firmly a sovereign position
to say:
this is who we are, this is what we
think, and this is what we know,
right? And that reality, to some degree,
is incommensurable with
with being a white woman. And you know
what?
That's okay. Right? Because we don't
aspire
to be white women.
You know. Just as I'm sure if we asked,
you know, a whole room full of white
women to put up their hand if they want
to be Aboriginal women,
not a lot of them would stand up.
Um, you know, so I … I

English: 
reach was Indigenous women.
You know, I wanted to celebrate the
amazing strengths
and knowledge production
of Aboriginal women and to
put quite firmly a sovereign position
to say:
this is who we are, this is what we
think, and this is what we know,
right? And that reality, to some degree,
is incommensurable with
with being a white woman. And you know
what?
That's okay. Right? Because we don't
aspire
to be white women.
You know. Just as I'm sure if we asked,
you know, a whole room full of white
women to put up their hand if they want
to be Aboriginal women,
not a lot of them would stand up.
Um, you know, so I … I

English: 
really wanted this work to claim a
sovereign space
within the academy, to also
say we have arrived.
Right? We have arrived, and we can
engage, and we will,
because this is our land,
and you are on it, and
you are here illegally.
And you have to deal with that
as part of the history of this country.
So in the formation of the middle class
white woman, that very much is tied to
colonialism. Yep? And so that's the other
dimension of the book.
It basically is trying to say,
understand how gender is socially
constructed
through colonialism. You know. 

English: 
really wanted this work to claim a
sovereign space
within the academy, to also
say we have arrived.
Right? We have arrived, and we can
engage, and we will,
because this is our land,
and you are on it, and
you are here illegally.
And you have to deal with that
as part of the history of this country.
So in the formation of the middle class
white woman, that very much is tied to
colonialism. Yep? And so that's the other
dimension of the book.
It basically is trying to say,
understand how gender is socially
constructed
through colonialism. You know.

English: 
Understand this: that you are a product
of empire.
And your politics are still very much
tied to that. Your politics come out of
the Enlightenment,
right? They come out of the Enlightenment,
but that Enlightenment
also was the impetus for colonisation.
And the spread of
empire. And so you cannot
assume a position of innocence
within a politics that actually
is epistemologically connected to a
process
of dispossession of Indigenous peoples.
Thank you. Okay. [laughs]
And another question
about this … this important book is
the cover. And that women
from your Stradbroke Island community,
family members,

English: 
Understand this: that you are a product
of empire.
And your politics are still very much
tied to that. Your politics come out of
the Enlightenment,
right? They come out of the Enlightenment,
but that Enlightenment
also was the impetus for colonisation.
And the spread of
empire. And so you cannot
assume a position of innocence
within a politics that actually
is epistemologically connected to a
process
of dispossession of Indigenous peoples.
Thank you. Okay. [laughs]
And another question
about this … this important book is
the cover. And that women
from your Stradbroke Island community,
family members,

English: 
including family members, were pictured
on the
cover and they're pictured on the new
edition.
when you were writing a new preface
earlier this year,
how was the knowledge of these women
present
in your current reflections about
Indigenous women's relation
to white feminism?
That their knowledge is very much a part
of
who I am, because I am not
an individual. I am
somebody who is always in relation
to my female
relatives, my creative beings,
and the Country. So I …
I basically wanted to complicate
the visual representation of what
people think

English: 
including family members, were pictured
on the
cover and they're pictured on the new
edition.
when you were writing a new preface
earlier this year,
how was the knowledge of these women
present
in your current reflections about
Indigenous women's relation
to white feminism?
That their knowledge is very much a part
of
who I am, because I am not
an individual. I am
somebody who is always in relation
to my female
relatives, my creative beings,
and the Country. So I …
I basically wanted to complicate
the visual representation of what
people think

English: 
Aboriginal women look like, 
you know, but that was also
because all the women on that
cover see themselves in terms
of whether they're Gorenpul, you know,
Wiradjuri – whatever. They're on there
as these with strong women,
knowledgeable women, you know, women who
have grown me up and women who are also
my tiddas and my sisters.
Um, so, and – and my grandnieces and my
grandchildren as – as
on there now – but I am only who I am
through my relationships with all of
them.
Yeah, so they very much shape
the way that I think, be and do.
Thank you.

English: 
Aboriginal women look like, 
you know, but that was also
because all the women on that
cover see themselves in terms
of whether they're Gorenpul, you know,
Wiradjuri – whatever. They're on there
as these with strong women,
knowledgeable women, you know, women who
have grown me up and women who are also
my tiddas and my sisters.
Um, so, and – and my grandnieces and my
grandchildren as – as
on there now – but I am only who I am
through my relationships with all of
them.
Yeah, so they very much shape
the way that I think, be and do.
Thank you.

English: 
When you visited the University of
Alberta a couple of years ago,
you've made a memorable statement:
'Indigenous people don't need Foucault.'
At least one early career Indigenous
researcher found that statement very
empowering
as she completed her original PhD
research.
I thought, hang on! Um,
you know, concepts developed by the
historian and political theorist
Michel Foucault, and prison activist of
course,
and some … mental health activist,
so – concepts developed by him including
epistemes,
discourse, counter-discourse, have been
quite important to some of your
arguments about knowledge
power and sovereignty. So I wondered if
you could
share a little bit about the ways that
you do,

English: 
When you visited the University of
Alberta a couple of years ago,
you've made a memorable statement:
'Indigenous people don't need Foucault.'
At least one early career Indigenous
researcher found that statement very
empowering
as she completed her original PhD
research.
I thought, hang on! Um,
you know, concepts developed by the
historian and political theorist
Michel Foucault, and prison activist of
course,
and some … mental health activist,
so – concepts developed by him including
epistemes,
discourse, counter-discourse, have been
quite important to some of your
arguments about knowledge
power and sovereignty. So I wondered if
you could
share a little bit about the ways that
you do,

English: 
and don't, draw inspiration
from this important … other important
thinker.
I think what Foucault did for me
was make me understand
how disciplinary knowledge
is produced. He gave me an
understanding of the way in which the
episteme
was developed in the Enlightenment, and
that … how that continues
to structure the way that we think about
the world, and are
in the world. So I
really, um, you know I love
his work, because he is so queer
and he … you know, even though he's against
the Enlightenment at one sense in the
ways which he's trying to produce
knowledge,
he is still very much a product of it. So
he never gets
out of that … that episteme.

English: 
and don't, draw inspiration
from this important … other important
thinker.
I think what Foucault did for me
was make me understand
how disciplinary knowledge
is produced. He gave me an
understanding of the way in which the
episteme
was developed in the Enlightenment, and
that … how that continues
to structure the way that we think about
the world, and are
in the world. So I
really, um, you know I love
his work, because he is so queer
and he … you know, even though he's against
the Enlightenment at one sense in the
ways which he's trying to produce
knowledge,
he is still very much a product of it. So
he never gets
out of that … that episteme.

English: 
And he made me think about
power in
ways in which I hadn't been
taught in my undergraduate degree. So
for him to kind of talk to me about, you
know, relation –
power as being relational, as being
you know enabling as much as it is,
you know, containing, I
could understand and I guess relate to
that.
But the problem with Foucault, and the
limits – and he admits that
there are limits to the way in which he
has envisaged power –
the limits of that is in when you come
up with another form of
power. So when you … and he – he doesn't take
into consideration
the power of Mother Earth. So his power
is
always restricted to the human
production
of it, not the fact that power can exist

English: 
And he made me think about
power in
ways in which I hadn't been
taught in my undergraduate degree. So
for him to kind of talk to me about, you
know, relation – 
power as being relational, as being
you know enabling as much as it is,
you know, containing, I
could understand and I guess relate to
that.
But the problem with Foucault, and the
limits – and he admits that
there are limits to the way in which he
has envisaged power –
the limits of that is in when you come
up with another form of
power. So when you … and he – he doesn't take
into consideration
the power of Mother Earth. So his power
is
always restricted to the human
production
of it, not the fact that power can exist

English: 
elsewhere in different forms that
actually circumscribe
our power. And we are at this very moment
in history
understanding that. Um, so …
and so I could bring Indigenous
uh understandings of power through
relatedness
into a conversation with him, and it
allowed me to see the limitations
of what he'd done. But he had – he gave me
a window
to look through, to basically
see where these people's
ways of being and knowing in the world
came
from. And he gave me
a way to understand
white western logics. So
I, um … I mean, he's

English: 
elsewhere in different forms that
actually circumscribe
our power. And we are at this very moment
in history
understanding that. Um, so …
and so I could bring Indigenous
uh understandings of power through
relatedness
into a conversation with him, and it
allowed me to see the limitations
of what he'd done. But he had – he gave me
a window
to look through, to basically
see where these people's
ways of being and knowing in the world
came
from. And he gave me
a way to understand
white western logics. So
I, um … I mean, he's

English: 
only one, but … but for me,
he is probably someone that I …
you know how … when
you have the wish list about who you
want to have dinner with?
He would be right there, you know, he
would be right there.
Um, and my grandfather. I'd love – would
have loved him to have met my
grandfather.
Um, so I think that
that's the importance of Foucault
for me. Now, why raise my grandfather who
was an amazing philosopher,
I do tell the story about how I was
asked not to return to sunday school
on Dunwich, because I was seen as being
disruptive.
And so when, um,
my grandfather and grandmother went to
the church to find out what I'd done,
they basically explained that I was

English: 
only one, but … but for me,
he is probably someone that I …
you know how … when
you have the wish list about who you
want to have dinner with?
He would be right there, you know, he
would be right there.
Um, and my grandfather. I'd love – would
have loved him to have met my
grandfather.
Um, so I think that
that's the importance of Foucault
for me. Now, why raise my grandfather who
was an amazing philosopher,
I do tell the story about how I was
asked not to return to Sunday school
on Dunwich, because I was seen as being
disruptive.
And so when, um,
my grandfather and grandmother went to
the church to find out what I'd done,
they basically explained that I was

English: 
asking really, um, rude questions.
Like, you know, one of the instances
apparently … we were all singing 'Jesus
loves / all the children / all the children
of the world /
red and yellow, black and white / all the
children in his sight', right?
And then we had to go into the bible
reading lessons for kids.
And I'm like seeing all these kids are
white.
So like, I'm asking the questions like:
Where are the black
kids? Where are the red kids? Where are
the yellow kids?
Um, and so that was not
good, and then I listened to them talk
about
Jesus and turning the other cheek and
stuff, so I'd you know stick me hand
up and say, well, how – how many times do
you have to turn the cheek
when, you know … why does my grandmother
have to go down the back of the stairs
– at the back of the store to be served?
You know, why
is it that we're always pushed out of
lines
when we go to town, why do my
grandparents get spit on?

English: 
asking really, um, rude questions.
Like, you know, one of the instances
apparently … we were all singing 'Jesus
loves / all the children / all the children
of the world /
red and yellow, black and white / all the
children in his sight', right?
And then we had to go into the bible
reading lessons for kids.
And I'm like seeing all these kids are
white.
So like, I'm asking the questions like:
Where are the black
kids? Where are the red kids? Where are
the yellow kids?
Um, and so that was not
good, and then I listened to them talk
about
Jesus and turning the other cheek and
stuff, so I'd you know stick me hand
up and say, well, how – how many times do
you have to turn the cheek
when, you know … why does my grandmother
have to go down the back of the stairs
– at the back of the store to be served?
You know, why
is it that we're always pushed out of
lines
when we go to town, why do my
grandparents get spit on?

English: 
So I was really trying to understand
this notion of the Christian.
Um, and – and the hypocrisy,
you know. And I'm, you know, 11 going
on 12 with this.
So what happens is I go –
so I come home and my great … my parents,
um, would send the other kids to church.
But my job
was I got given, ah, the Communist
Manifesto,
and the bible, and my grandfather said to
me: these are two
white fellas' ideas of philosophy, and
he used that term;
he said, you need to read them and you
need to understand them,
and we will have discussions. So
that was my Sunday. And,
you know, so I grew up in this
household of these amazing grandparents.
My grandparents,

English: 
So I was really trying to understand
this notion of the Christian.
Um, and – and the hypocrisy,
you know. And I'm, you know, 11 going
on 12 with this.
So what happens is I go –
so I come home and my great … my parents,
um, would send the other kids to church.
But my job
was I got given, ah, the Communist
Manifesto,
and the bible, and my grandfather said to
me: these are two
white fellas' ideas of philosophy, and
he used that term;
he said, you need to read them and you
need to understand them,
and we will have discussions. So
that was my Sunday. And,
you know, so I grew up in this
household of these amazing grandparents.
My grandparents,

English: 
they only went to year three on the
mission. And they had this amazing
understanding of the world, and what was
in the world.
Like they were they would have
discussions about
John F. Kennedy; they would have
discussions about Martin Luther King.
So I grew up in a household
where I
was empowered by
these wonderful old people.
I don't know if I've answered your
question, Fi! [laughs]
Um, I don't think Foucault was your first
theorist. [laughs]
I hear that you're working on a new
book manuscript
that extends some of the work on Talkin'
Up to the White Woman,
to provide a new theoretical framework
for understanding
Indigenous social constructions of
identity,

English: 
they only went to year three on the
mission. And they had this amazing
understanding of the world, and what was
in the world.
Like they were they would have
discussions about
John F. Kennedy; they would have
discussions about Martin Luther King.
So I grew up in a household
where I
was empowered by
these wonderful old people.
I don't know if I've answered your
question, Fi! [laughs]
Um, I don't think Foucault was your first
theorist. [laughs]
I hear that you're working on a new
book manuscript
that extends some of the work on Talkin'
Up to the White Woman,
to provide a new theoretical framework
for understanding
Indigenous social constructions of
identity,

English: 
sovereignty and gender. And
I wondered if you'd be prepared to talk
about some of the most
interesting things you've learned about
Indigenous social constructions of
gender in the archives,
and maybe you might want to talk a bit
about Lizzie and her English lessons.
[laughs] Yep. So, I think that
one of the interesting things about
doing
and reading archival materials is that
for me, and I'm doing my work on the
women of Quandamooka on the frontier,
is that I'm … I'm reading things that I
already know.
So it … through oral history, right. So it
becomes
a really interesting take on the archive
methodologically.
Yeah, um, and
I'm absolutely

English: 
sovereignty and gender. And
I wondered if you'd be prepared to talk
about some of the most
interesting things you've learned about
Indigenous social constructions of
gender in the archives,
and maybe you might want to talk a bit
about Lizzie and her English lessons.
[laughs] Yep. So, I think that
one of the interesting things about
doing
and reading archival materials is that
for me, and I'm doing my work on the
women of Quandamooka on the frontier,
is that I'm … I'm reading things that I
already know.
So it … through oral history, right. So it
becomes
a really interesting take on the archive
methodologically.
Yeah, um, and
I'm absolutely

English: 
amazed at Quandamooka women, and
speaking of Lizzie,
she would visit
a guy by the name of Gustavus Birch
out at Pulan Pulan, out at Amity on
Stradbroke,
and she would invent
chores for him to do and then
she'd just appropriate the calico
and the soap. And this poor lad reads …
like he's writing about … the two things
he's obsessed with are Lizzie and
constipation, right,
and the fact that Lizzie's not
putting it out for him,
you know. And despite the fact that he's
trying to teach her English,
and, you know, he lets her basically take
soap and that,
Lizzie is not putting it out. And Lizzie
is putting it out for her husband and
whoever she
wants, except she's not putting it out

English: 
amazed at Quandamooka women, and
speaking of Lizzie,
she would visit
a guy by the name of Gustavus Birch
out at Pulan Pulan, out at Amity on
Stradbroke,
and she would invent
chores for him to do and then
she'd just appropriate the calico
and the soap. And this poor lad reads …
like he's writing about … the two things
he's obsessed with are Lizzie and
constipation, right,
and the fact that Lizzie's not
putting it out for him,
you know. And despite the fact that he's
trying to teach her English,
and, you know, he lets her basically take
soap and that,
Lizzie is not putting it out. And Lizzie
is putting it out for her husband and
whoever she
wants, except she's not putting it out

English: 
for him.
So in reading, like, reading what he's
writing – and of course he doesn't talk
about it as putting out – but
it is … it's … it's just a comedy. Like
the diary, when you …
So she says things to him like, and this
is again, is about,
you know, the autonomy of this woman and
the strength of this woman and how she's
working with relations
because there's other women involved in
the ruse, but she does things
to him, like, she says, oh there's a whole
heap of mullet up in Wallen Creek,
so can you get your rifle and go and
shoot some?
Now – I'm just saying,
who gets … like, who believes you can go
and shoot a
fish, especially
a mullet, and
the fact that he just goes and does this,
and when he gets back she's cleaned him
out, right, of, of his
stuff! [laughs] And so …

English: 
for him.
So in reading, like, reading what he's
writing – and of course he doesn't talk
about it as putting out – but
it is … it's … it's just a comedy. Like
the diary, when you …
So she says things to him like, and this
is again, is about,
you know, the autonomy of this woman and
the strength of this woman and how she's
working with relations
because there's other women involved in
the ruse, but she does things
to him, like, she says, oh there's a whole
heap of mullet up in Wallen Creek,
so can you get your rifle and go and
shoot some?
Now – I'm just saying,
who gets … like, who believes you can go
and shoot a
fish, especially
a mullet, and
the fact that he just goes and does this,
and when he gets back she's cleaned him
out, right, of, of his
stuff! [laughs] And so …

English: 
and what she does … steals other things,
like
she tells him – now this is in the middle
of the day – oh, there's bandicoots down
eating your pumpkins;
now bandicoots don't come out in the
middle of the day, right? So she does …
kind of does this stuff, and he goes, and
of course when he comes back,
all of his stuff's gone. And so
there's a great deal in which
I see Lizzie as practicing her
sovereignty.
She's in a particular relationship with
this lad,
in which she's appropriating, um,
and she is doing it fundamentally
by tricking him, but also through
kindness,
because she basically subjects herself
to his English lessons
in order to have to set up this
relationship,
and her, um,
you know … determining who she will be
intimate with and who she won't,

English: 
and what she does … steals other things,
like
she tells him – now this is in the middle
of the day – oh, there's bandicoots down
eating your pumpkins;
now bandicoots don't come out in the
middle of the day, right? So she does …
kind of does this stuff, and he goes, and
of course when he comes back,
all of his stuff's gone. And so
there's a great deal in which
I see Lizzie as practicing her
sovereignty.
She's in a particular relationship with
this lad,
in which she's appropriating, um,
and she is doing it fundamentally
by tricking him, but also through
kindness,
because she basically subjects herself
to his English lessons
in order to have to set up this
relationship,
and her, um,
you know … determining who she will be
intimate with and who she won't,

English: 
um, and still abiding by the by the law,
so she's – she's married proper way,
but she, um, is you know,
deciding, well she might go and, you know,
have sex
over here, um, and tomorrow she might go
back to the husband.
So what you see, and, and she's only
one with this kind of,
um, understanding of
her sovereignty,
in … she's exercising her rights
within the context of kinship
rights and relations to land. So, so I'm
trying to think through
more about the configuration of
gender and sovereignty through kinship,
ancestral beings, etc etc. So
so she's one, like I said, that's
making me
think more about
Aboriginal women, because we are written

English: 
um, and still abiding by the by the law,
so she's – she's married proper way,
but she, um, is you know,
deciding, well she might go and, you know,
have sex
over here, um, and tomorrow she might go
back to the husband.
So what you see, and, and she's only
one with this kind of,
um, understanding of
her sovereignty,
in … she's exercising her rights
within the context of kinship
rights and relations to land. So, so I'm
trying to think through
more about the configuration of
gender and sovereignty through kinship,
ancestral beings, etc etc. So
so she's one, like I said, that's
making me
think more about
Aboriginal women, because we are written

English: 
up as, you know, in …
in history as – particularly on the
frontiers – being victims. You know,
being, uh, women that don't have agency,
we're sexually promiscuous, or we're
slaves, like it's …
it's the representation. And what are the…
you know, in doing this work on the
Quandamooka archives and the women,
what it does is it shows this amazing
agency. Like they were the reconnaissance
for the war, they … 
the women, and – and the white
soldiers know this,
right. They finally twig that it's the
women who do the reconnaissance, because
the next day they're hit.
Um, and, you know, that
kind of … and they also
fight – that's the other thing – so they …
so there's a
whole heap of rethinking that needs to
be done

English: 
up as, you know, in …
in history as – particularly on the
frontiers – being victims. You know,
being, uh, women that don't have agency,
we're sexually promiscuous, or we're
slaves, like it's …
it's the representation. And what are the…
you know, in doing this work on the
Quandamooka archives and the women,
what it does is it shows this amazing
agency. Like they were the reconnaissance
for the war, they … 
the women, and – and the white
soldiers know this,
right. They finally twig that it's the
women who do the reconnaissance, because
the next day they're hit.
Um, and, you know, that
kind of … and they also
fight – that's the other thing – so they …
so there's a
whole heap of rethinking that needs to
be done

English: 
in terms of those representations
against of what,
you know, Aboriginal women's gender roles
are.
And I think that because the lens by
which those representations are being
constructed
position those women on this, on the,
on the frontier, as
as victims, basically, or in terms of
passivity,
they don't really understand the
dynamics of
the use of passivity, as well as
the ways in which they–Aboriginal women
strategised.
And look, you know, just giving an example
of Lizzie,
right, and Lizzie is distributing
those goods
amongst her network, so
we need to kind of think, well, we don't …
I mean, I know the women on, on … 
I come from very strong,
amazing women and that doesn't just
happen

English: 
in terms of those representations
against of what,
you know, Aboriginal women's gender roles
are.
And I think that because the lens by
which those representations are being
constructed
position those women on this, on the,
on the frontier, as
as victims, basically, or in terms of
passivity,
they don't really understand the
dynamics of
the use of passivity, as well as
the ways in which they–Aboriginal women
strategised.
And look, you know, just giving an example
of Lizzie,
right, and Lizzie is distributing
those goods
amongst her network, so
we need to kind of think, well, we don't …
I mean, I know the women on, on … 
I come from very strong,
amazing women and that doesn't just
happen

English: 
overnight. You know, the strength and the
resilience of the Quandamooka women
is well documented in the archives.
So I don't know if I've answered your
question, Fi! [laughs]
Yeah, I think … I think it's kind of your
archival turn,
and it does, you know, it is extending
like these, um, Indigenous
cultural constructions of
gender in a whole lot of ways
that are very concrete, and that bring
together
both that oral history and that archival
material
to produce a different understanding of
how identity works and how power works
and how
conceptions of identity or
preconceptions on the frontier,
you know, were subverted in ways
that, um … enforce the
pre-existing sovereignty of those women.
So, yeah, that,
that's … quite clear.
I've also been thinking about your

English: 
overnight. You know, the strength and the
resilience of the Quandamooka women
is well documented in the archives.
So I don't know if I've answered your
question, Fi! [laughs]
Yeah, I think … I think it's kind of your
archival turn,
and it does, you know, it is extending
like these, um, Indigenous
cultural constructions of
gender in a whole lot of ways
that are very concrete, and that bring
together
both that oral history and that archival
material
to produce a different understanding of
how identity works and how power works
and how
conceptions of identity or
preconceptions on the frontier,
you know, were subverted in ways
that, um … enforce the
pre-existing sovereignty of those women.
So, yeah, that,
that's … quite clear.
I've also been thinking about your

English: 
more recent contributions to cultural
studies
and, um, in particular something I've been
thinking about is
the distinction between what is often
called identity politics by conservative
thinkers
and alt-right activists and
the politics of culture, which is where
we study
how power works through social
institutions and discourses and
practices.
Um, I know you've been working on
Aboriginalia
and I wondered if you would just talk a
little about what Aboriginality
is, and how you understand its cultural
and ideological significance as an
expert
on now whiteness and gender. 
Okay, well, Aboriginalia here is kind of
material that was produced by
white men and women from really the turn

English: 
more recent contributions to cultural
studies
and, um, in particular something I've been
thinking about is
the distinction between what is often
called identity politics by conservative
thinkers
and alt-right activists and
the politics of culture, which is where
we study
how power works through social
institutions and discourses and
practices.
Um, I know you've been working on
Aboriginalia
and I wondered if you would just talk a
little about what Aboriginality
is, and how you understand its cultural
and ideological significance as an
expert
on now whiteness and gender. 
Okay, well, Aboriginalia here is kind of
material that was produced by
white men and women from really the turn

English: 
of the century
until the 1970s. A lot of it is on
ceramics.
So utilising Aboriginal motives and
images, like appropriating and
creating representations, and
it was seen as a way of branding
Australia – this is the iconic, or …
the uniqueness
of Australia, ah, was to represent
supposedly Aboriginal art or, and people
on, you know, objects.
And I,
you know, really have been trying to
think through that and to
understand the idea of representation,
not just
as a re-presentation,
but representation
in terms of how

English: 
of the century
until the 1970s. A lot of it is on
ceramics.
So utilising Aboriginal motifs and
images, like appropriating and
creating representations, and
it was seen as a way of branding
Australia – this is the iconic, or …
the uniqueness
of Australia, ah, was to represent
supposedly Aboriginal art or, and people
on, you know, objects.
And I,
you know, really have been trying to
think through that and to
understand the idea of representation,
not just
as a re-presentation,
but representation
in terms of how

English: 
the … the representation in
itself brings into being an
epistemological possession.
So when you actually
portray or draw Aboriginal people on
plates,
you're bringing into being an
image that's supposed to reflect
something, but in that very process
you're creating
this epistemological possession, right, so
it's so
ownership is very much a part of
the construction, the representation. So
even though it's a re-presentation, in
that it isn't
something that reflects reality,
it is actually something
that is also taken
into possession, in bringing it into
being. Yeah? 
So I'm trying to think about that

English: 
the … the representation in
itself brings into being an
epistemological possession.
So when you actually
portray or draw Aboriginal people on
plates,
you're bringing into being an
image that's supposed to reflect
something, but in that very process
you're creating
this epistemological possession, right, so
it's so
ownership is very much a part of
the construction, the representation. So
even though it's a re-presentation, in
that it isn't
something that reflects reality,
it is actually something
that is also taken
into possession, in bringing it into
being. Yeah? 
So I'm trying to think about that

English: 
in terms of the way in which it
is a particular kind of white possessive
aesthetic at work, and how that
white possessive aesthetic utilises and
operationalises the Aboriginal body
and symbols to
say that this is what's unique about
Australia,
but at the same time totally erases
Indigenous sovereignty and the history of
colonisation in this country,
in the very production of the
epistemological
possession, yep? So I'm looking at
how these things – which are collected by
Aboriginal people as well, I might say,
as and, you know, non-Aboriginal people.
They were mainly produced by
immigrants, you know, particularly
after the first
War, and, um,
they are … they are interesting

English: 
in terms of the way in which it
is a particular kind of white possessive
aesthetic at work, and how that
white possessive aesthetic utilises and
operationalises the Aboriginal body
and symbols to
say that this is what's unique about
Australia,
but at the same time totally erases
Indigenous sovereignty and the history of
colonisation in this country,
in the very production of the
epistemological
possession, yep? So I'm looking at
how these things – which are collected by
Aboriginal people as well, I might say,
as and, you know, non-Aboriginal people.
They were mainly produced by
immigrants, you know, particularly
after the first
War, and, um,
they are … they are interesting

English: 
objects that have a social life that
were meant to create,
you know, a particular
production of national identity
that at the same time is erased
in terms of the real bodies, the real
people.
So this stuff is happening while we're
on reserves,
we're on missions, you know, children are
being stolen,
taken away; legislation is
becoming far more containing, the
surveillance becomes heightened.
So this is what they're actually doing
to real
Aboriginal people at the same time
as they're drawing them and they're
utilising,
um, our art,
on these, um, these objects.
And I find that kind
of, um,

English: 
objects that have a social life that
were meant to create,
you know, a particular
production of national identity
that at the same time is erased
in terms of the real bodies, the real
people.
So this stuff is happening while we're
on reserves,
we're on missions, you know, children are
being stolen,
taken away; legislation is
becoming far more containing, the
surveillance becomes heightened.
So this is what they're actually doing
to real
Aboriginal people at the same time
as they're drawing them and they're
utilising,
um, our art,
on these, um, these objects.
And I find that kind
of, um,

English: 
contradiction just permeates very much
the way in which
Australia sees itself.
So on the one hand we can paint a Qantas
plane
and have Aboriginal, you know, stylistic
iconography,
but we can incarcerate Aboriginal people
and children. We can put 10 year olds in
jail.
We can refuse your sovereignty.
We can basically
continue to perpetrate
your poor health through lack of
resources.
We can not basically allow
you to become a part of the economy.
Instead, we structure through
administrative and legal discourse:
you're reliant on the state.
So the people don't understand that
through administrative

English: 
contradiction just permeates very much
the way in which
Australia sees itself.
So on the one hand we can paint a Qantas
plane
and have Aboriginal, you know, stylistic
iconography,
but we can incarcerate Aboriginal people
and children. We can put 10 year olds in
jail.
We can refuse your sovereignty.
We can basically
continue to perpetrate
your poor health through lack of
resources.
We can not basically allow
you to become a part of the economy.
Instead, we structure through
administrative and legal discourse:
you're reliant on the state.
So the people don't understand that
through administrative

English: 
and legal, um, or legislative
works, Aboriginal people are incorporated
into the state
in particular ways that don't
enable our disassociation and separation
from the state. Um, in
instead, we in a lot of cases,
in terms of the welfare dollar, are the
things that prop up economies.
If you were to take out out all of the
welfare dollar out of
Alice Springs, that economy would fall
over tomorrow.
Right? So you know, welfare has always been
a means
of actually injecting money into the
economy.
Can we please think about this in terms
of
JobSeeker? Can we think about this in
the way in which the state is actually
responding to the
virus? And that is what … they're the
logics

English: 
and legal, um, or legislative
works, Aboriginal people are incorporated
into the state
in particular ways that don't
enable our disassociation and separation
from the state. Um, in
instead, we in a lot of cases,
in terms of the welfare dollar, are the
things that prop up economies.
If you were to take out out all of the
welfare dollar out of
Alice Springs, that economy would fall
over tomorrow.
Right? So you know, welfare has always been
a means
of actually injecting money into the
economy.
Can we please think about this in terms
of
JobSeeker? Can we think about this in
the way in which the state is actually
responding to the
virus? And that is what … they're the
logics

English: 
that it utilises with Aboriginal people.
Thank you.
It's like a, um, aesthetics of containment.
Yes.
Yeah, it's, um … yeah I've …
Folks, um, check out this work! It's
… it's really great.
At this particular time,
that many are calling the Anthropocene,
there have been
some renewed calls to reconsider
foundational arguments of eco-feminism
and I just wanted to hear from you
about
how well you think that eco-feminism
has taken on board Indigenous women's
knowledge
as it relates to catastrophic climate
change.
And how you see the, I guess, like, the
question with Foucault
some of the the um possibilities but
also
some of the limitations of that.

English: 
that it utilises with Aboriginal people.
Thank you.
It's like a, um, aesthetics of containment.
Yes.
Yeah, it's, um … yeah I've …
Folks, um, check out this work! It's
… it's really great.
At this particular time,
that many are calling the Anthropocene,
there have been
some renewed calls to reconsider
foundational arguments of eco-feminism
and I just wanted to hear from you
about
how well you think that eco-feminism
has taken on board Indigenous women's
knowledge
as it relates to catastrophic climate
change.
And how you see the, I guess, like, the
question with Foucault
some of the the um possibilities but
also
some of the limitations of that.

English: 
At just where we find ourselves.
I think that eco-feminists
on the ground are trying to work with
Indigenous communities
to take care of land and to
put in place more sustainable,
you know, if it's in terms of food
production, etc …
but the logics of eco-feminism
are still very much in the sense of a
contractual relationship. And what I mean
by that –
the earth is … they're not …
it's not about being seen as being
or understanding yourself as being in
and of
the earth. It's still a sense in which
the human
is contracting to utilise in some way
the earth. And I think
that there is … that's a fundamental
difference

English: 
At just where we find ourselves.
I think that eco-feminists
on the ground are trying to work with
Indigenous communities
to take care of land and to
put in place more sustainable,
you know, if it's in terms of food
production, etc …
but the logics of eco-feminism
are still very much in the sense of a
contractual relationship. And what I mean
by that – 
the earth is … they're not …
it's not about being seen as being
or understanding yourself as being in
and of
the earth. It's still a sense in which
the human
is contracting to utilise in some way
the earth. And I think
that there is … that's a fundamental
difference

English: 
in the way in which Indigenous
people understand themselves and their
relationship
to being in and of the earth. So, when
we talk about sovereignty, it is
not through the logics of basically
that being conferred from a god that
gave it to a
king that then operationalised it in
terms
of democracy, right, so that ontological
roots of the Westphalian notion of
sovereignty –
which also determines
the relationships with the earth – is
different to
the way in which Indigenous peoples
configured their
sovereignty. That is, being in relations
with non-humans:
that's plants, that's all living things,
and trying to

English: 
in the way in which Indigenous
people understand themselves and their
relationship
to being in and of the earth. So, when
we talk about sovereignty, it is
not through the logics of basically
that being conferred from a god that
gave it to a
king that then operationalised it in
terms
of democracy, right, so that ontological
roots of the Westphalian notion of
sovereignty –
which also determines
the relationships with the earth – is
different to
the way in which Indigenous peoples
configured their
sovereignty. That is, being in relations
with non-humans:
that's plants, that's all living things,
and trying to

English: 
be a good relative, like being in
good relations, is
is the way in which we understand
ourselves
as not being worth any more or any less
than every other living thing.
So your … your being
is really determined by the relations
that you're
in with everything.
And capitalism, you know, precludes that
to some degrees. And some of us still,
you know, understand and were basic–
and … like my … it's a hard thing to …
I try to talk about
how … what it is like to
feel that you're walking on something
living.

English: 
be a good relative, like being in
good relations, is
is the way in which we understand
ourselves
as not being worth any more or any less
than every other living thing.
So your … your being
is really determined by the relations
that you're
in with everything.
And capitalism, you know, precludes that
to some degrees. And some of us still,
you know, understand and were basic–
and … like my … it's a hard thing to …
I try to talk about
how … what it is like to
feel that you're walking on something
living.

English: 
You know. If you can imagine that.
And I grew up
with that. That we are working –
walking on something living.
So you take care in
basically how you treat
that living thing that you're actually
a part of, and sustained by, but you're
also walking on it.
So that sense of respect
even to think about where you put your
feet …
Like, how many people do you think get up
out of bed every morning,
and think, the heaviness
of what capitalism has produced for the
planet?
And you know, you might think i'm mad but
a lot of the … the volcanoes,
'vulcanists' or whatever – I probably
haven't got the correct term –
who monitor volcanoes, basically

English: 
You know. If you can imagine that.
And I grew up
with that. That we are working –
walking on something living.
So you take care in
basically how you treat
that living thing that you're actually
a part of, and sustained by, but you're
also walking on it.
So that sense of respect
even to think about where you put your
feet …
Like, how many people do you think get up
out of bed every morning,
and think, the heaviness
of what capitalism has produced for the
planet?
And you know, you might think i'm mad but
a lot of the … the volcanoes,
'vulcanists' or whatever – I probably
haven't got the correct term –
who monitor volcanoes, basically

English: 
said that first big lockdown, the earth
was quiet. And
our imprint – like that, that our noise,
and our vibration when it
went, it was like
the planet was breathing.
The animals were coming out.
You know, plants were responding in
particular ways.
So what I'm saying
is not some kind of,
you know, craziness. It's
actually seeking to conceptualise
the planet, and our relations
with it, in a different way. We have to
think
differently. We cannot continue,
you know, to think the way that we do.
And it's,

English: 
said that first big lockdown, the earth
was quiet. And
our imprint – like that, that our noise,
and our vibration when it
went, it was like
the planet was breathing.
The animals were coming out.
You know, plants were responding in
particular ways.
So what I'm saying
is not some kind of,
you know, craziness. It's
actually seeking to conceptualise
the planet, and our relations
with it, in a different way. We have to
think
differently. We cannot continue,
you know, to think the way that we do.
And it's,

English: 
you know, understanding first and
foremost
that we are nothing without …
it is the earth that sustains us. And
it's the power of the earth that can
also destroy us. So that Foucauldian notion
which is still human-centered –
like it's all human-centered power, all
Western theory is human-centered power,
right? Um, that has to be changed.
You know, we can't continue to think that
humans have the power.
Not everything can be made commensurable
with that,
that ideology.
We're getting towards the end of this
conversation, [That's pretty good, Fiona!]
and I feel that um, I'd like to
share a question from one of our
audience members.
What are your tips on building
resilience

English: 
you know, understanding first and
foremost
that we are nothing without …
it is the earth that sustains us. And
it's the power of the earth that can
also destroy us. So that Foucauldian notion
which is still human-centered –
like it's all human-centered power, all
Western theory is human-centered power,
right? Um, that has to be changed.
You know, we can't continue to think that
humans have the power.
Not everything can be made commensurable
with that,
that ideology.
We're getting towards the end of this
conversation, [That's pretty good, Fiona!]
and I feel that um, I'd like to
share a question from one of our
audience members.
What are your tips on building
resilience

English: 
for academics of colour who are trying to
navigate
and survive white academia?
I imagine you'd have a few.
Hm. I don't know if I'm really good at
giving tips.
I think, um, the … look,
I survive, I believe, because
I try and understand
human-centered power in its multiple
forms, and I try to
outmanoeuvre and
work in that kind of context, but
one must always have things that
sustains the self. It's difficult for
me
to respond and to … you know, to say
you know, women of colour, because I don't

English: 
for academics of colour who are trying to
navigate
and survive white academia?
I imagine you'd have a few.
Hm. I don't know if I'm really good at
giving tips.
I think, um, the … look,
I survive, I believe, because
I try and understand
human-centered power in its multiple
forms, and I try to
outmanoeuvre and
work in that kind of context, but
one must always have things that
sustains the self. It's difficult for
me
to respond and to … you know, to say
you know, women of colour, because I don't

English: 
know
culturally where you come from. I don't …
I don't know that. 
All I can all I know is that
I centre myself in terms of
my Country and my
ancestors and the
… the place, and I carry that with me.
I'm not just disassociated from it just
because I'm in the academy,
and I think that's something that a lot
of vice-chancellors have found really
difficult
to understand: you know, that I
act sovereign. So
in terms of tips, I'm not, I'm not sure,
because I think what for me it's about
is:
what is your relationship to the
Indigenous sovereignty that still

English: 
know
culturally where you come from. I don't …
I don't know that. 
All I can all I know is that
I centre myself in terms of
my Country and my
ancestors and the
… the place, and I carry that with me.
I'm not just disassociated from it just
because I'm in the academy,
and I think that's something that a lot
of vice-chancellors have found really
difficult
to understand: you know, that I
act sovereign. So
in terms of tips, I'm not, I'm not sure,
because I think what for me it's about
is:
what is your relationship to the
Indigenous sovereignty that still

English: 
prevails
where you are, and how are you setting up
relations
with the traditional owners in the
university
where you are? You know, like this, this,
you know, resilience occurs I think
through many forms, and I …
I honestly don't know
if I could come up with a list of tips.
It, you know, it's …
yeah, because I'm not an … I'm not …
I'm only in and out of place
when I'm on
other people's Country. Yeah. So when I'm
in and out of place, I know that there
are protocols that I have to abide by,
but I also know that i'm a stranger on
somebody else's land. This Country.
And so my capacity to
I think, um, do things

English: 
prevails
where you are, and how are you setting up
relations
with the traditional owners in the
university
where you are? You know, like this, this,
you know, resilience occurs I think
through many forms, and I …
I honestly don't know
if I could come up with a list of tips.
It, you know, it's …
yeah, because I'm not an … I'm not …
I'm only in and out of place
when I'm on
other people's Country. Yeah. So when I'm
in and out of place, I know that there
are protocols that I have to abide by,
but I also know that i'm a stranger on
somebody else's land. This Country.
And so my capacity to
I think, um, do things

English: 
is again only in relation to others.
Yep? So …
Yeah. I'm … I don't … people ask me about,
you know,
resilience and about how I
do what I do. I only know that I do what
I do
because of the people
and Country I come from. And I don't …
that's kind of unwavering in everything
I do.
Thank you Distinguished Professor
Moreton-Robinson,
and thanks to everyone – I hear there's
quite a lot of you –
for watching this. I hope you've learned
as much as
I have. I never leave a conversation
with you without learning something

English: 
is again only in relation to others.
Yep? So …
Yeah. I'm … I don't … people ask me about,
you know,
resilience and about how I
do what I do. I only know that I do what
I do
because of the people
and Country I come from. And I don't …
that's kind of unwavering in everything
I do.
Thank you Distinguished Professor
Moreton-Robinson,
and thanks to everyone – I hear there's
quite a lot of you –
for watching this. I hope you've learned
as much as
I have. I never leave a conversation
with you without learning something

English: 
very, very new. And, and also without
learning how to think differently.
So thanks
to those of you who are viewing this.
If you haven't done this already,
please do yourselves a favour: purchase a
copy
of the Second Edition of Talkin' Up to
the White Woman.
It has some extras in the preface and
and
in the end. It's published by University
of Queensland Press,
and you can purchase it through your
local independent bookstore.
Neighbourhood Books are the official
online bookseller
for this event, so you could go there.
And thank you Fi for as always
being as engaging, and
you know, your … if I could …
there was a question, I know, about
how does … how to be an ally. I think you
and I have discussed, it's not about

English: 
very, very new. And, and also without
learning how to think differently.
So thanks
to those of you who are viewing this.
If you haven't done this already,
please do yourselves a favour: purchase a
copy
of the Second Edition of Talkin' Up to
the White Woman.
It has some extras in the preface and
and
in the end. It's published by University
of Queensland Press,
and you can purchase it through your
local independent bookstore.
Neighbourhood Books are the official
online bookseller
for this event, so you could go there.
And thank you Fi for as always
being as engaging, and
you know, your … if I could …
there was a question, I know, about
how does … how to be an ally. I think you
and I have discussed, it's not about

English: 
being an ally. It's really I think about
being in good relations,
and that's something that you and I have
had for decades.
So you're the person that should
really answer that question. [laughs]
Well maybe we'll speak again
and share that secret, okay?
[laughs]
But I think we need to wrap up!
Okay, I think so.
Thank you everyone! Thank you.

English: 
being an ally. It's really I think about
being in good relations,
and that's something that you and I have
had for decades.
So you're the person that should
really answer that question. [laughs]
Well maybe we'll speak again
and share that secret, okay?
[laughs]
But I think we need to wrap up!
Okay, I think so.
Thank you everyone! Thank you.

English: 
Visit wheelercentre.com for the best in
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and ideas – from Melbourne, Australia,
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English: 
Visit wheelercentre.com for the best in
books, writing
and ideas – from Melbourne, Australia,
and the world.
