DANA HAN-KLEIN: Hi, everyone.
Welcome to Talks at Google.
Today, it is my pleasure
to introduce Dan Harmon.
[APPLAUSE]
So I think my first question is,
you have so many projects going
on-- like, do you sleep?
How do you manage your time?
DAN HARMON: Yeah, I get a lot
of sleep thinking laziness done.
I think that I do have
a lot of projects going,
and I am busy quite a bit.
But part of workaholism
is you never want
to say you're a workaholic.
Because a true workaholic
thinks the word "workaholic"
means "productive."
And then you go, well,
I'm not productive,
so I'm not a workaholic.
I can't say that out loud,
because it sounds like--
a real workaholic
likes the word.
Like-- It's like I hero word.
Like oh, they're a workaholic.
I mean, from talking
to my therapist,
you can be a workaholic
and get nothing done.
It really just means you
define yourself by what you do,
instead of, like, taking
time to live your life,
and trying to figure
that shit out.
But I have found that
my other problem--
which is perfectionism--
when you throw
workaholism at it,
the nice different split is that
if you're working on 20 things,
you never have time
to fuck one up.
You can just-- so
I just work for--
I just take meetings,
and I help people
with what I want I can help
them with, and try to keep
all these balls in the air.
And the answer to your
question is, I sleep, like,
four hours a night.
[LAUGHTER]
But it's not because I
have so many things to do.
Like, I have a rule--
I go home as soon as I can.
I don't work at home anymore.
I used to have-- you know,
if the ball's in my court,
I'll just screw it up.
If Dr. Strange says, write these
pages for tomorrow, I'll go,
"I'll do that."
Then I won't.
I'll screw it up.
Like, if the ball's in my
court, I'll just drop the ball.
If I tell somebody, this is
what you should do, I can get--
they're like, yeah, I'll
have that done by tomorrow--
and then they actually do it.
So I'm trying to lean
more towards that.
You know?
So that's why I have 20 projects
going on, is because when you
work like that, it's--
DANA HAN-KLEIN: You
enable yourself,
to have 20 projects going on--
DAN HARMON: Exactly.
DANA HAN-KLEIN: Yeah.
Instead of just sort of throwing
yourself completely into--
DAN HARMON: Yeah.
DANA HAN-KLEIN:
--something that might--
DAN HARMON: And your anxiety
becomes like, are they good,
or not?
Am I supposed to meddle
with this person?
Is this show supposed to be
their definition of good,
or my definition of good?
Am I supposed to screw
with them, the way
that a studio screwed with me?
Or am I supposed to, like,
do what no studio did--
which is just let me go.
Or, if they're let
go, will they suck?
Like, you just kind of
chase your tail that way.
But at least that tail-chasing
doesn't slow anybody else down.
You can just do that in
your bedroom at night.
DANA HAN-KLEIN: I
think my next question
is, how do you disconnect?
Because it sounds like
you're always thinking.
And, like, always
percolating on something.
DAN HARMON: I watch
Forensic Files,
and I have fun
with my girlfriend.
And I like to play with my iPad.
I mean, I'm always disconnected.
I'm either always connected,
or always disconnected.
I don't know.
I only feel anxiety about work.
Like, you go, oh, crap,
that needs to get done,
and that needs to be good.
Like, there's no joy.
So the joy comes from--
joy is the thing that happens
on accident, because you
don't have time to think.
Like, so that's another--
it's like you--
I think that's why, probably--
maybe not you guys.
You're millennial Googlers.
But I have a feeling
that's probably
the same for everybody--
that you procrastinate,
so that you have the excuse
of working in the moment.
Because there's a-- you're
channeling something.
I'm sure it's truly that--
I mean, I've done
a little coding.
I did.
I made a web site in PHP once.
[LAUGHTER]
And I know it's similar
to the writing process,
because I've done both.
And in both, you procrastinate.
You work sloppy.
You do these things
that you need to, like--
and so that, in the
moment, you're just like,
this is what I have to get done.
This is what I need to do.
I'll debug and organize later.
And I'm just going to slop this
together, and see if it works.
And then hand it off, and then--
so you get that high of somebody
saying, wow, you're a genius,
considering you waited till the
last minute and then did this.
It's always that important
asterisk, because God forbid
that you actually budgeted
your time, ate your kale,
did your push-ups, and then
had someone just appraise
your work-- as if to suggest
that this is the best
you could ever do if you
properly aligned yourself
with your work and stuff.
It's like, no way man.
Like, isn't it much better to
just be irresponsible, and just
like shoot something together,
and then go, like, I'm good--
considering.
DANA HAN-KLEIN: It's a little
self-sabotage sometimes.
DAN HARMON: But it's also a
trick to get you into the zone
where you are making stuff good.
If there was a way to do both--
if there was a way to schedule
regular sessions, nine-to-five,
of you just being like Ken
Kesey, Electric Kool-Aid
Acid Test-- like,
just like the player pianos--
you playing the keys, whatever.
That metaphor-- like,
being in the moment.
If you could schedule that,
and get a 401(k) doing that,
and like, you know--
if you could do that
without self-sabotage,
it would be an amazing thing.
You could write a book, and
probably make some money,
I think.
DANA HAN-KLEIN: I
just want to talk
about Harmon Time for a minute.
Because sitting here, listening
to you speak in person,
is, like, the most surreal
thing for me right now.
Because I've been listening to
the podcast for a long time.
It's very much about you, and
you seem very brutally honest
in it.
And it makes you feel like--
it makes an audience
feel like they know you.
Even though, objectively,
we don't know you.
But--
DAN HARMON: You do.
You do know me.
DANA HAN-KLEIN: But we do.
We probably-- like, I
feel like sometimes--
and I could be wrong-- but
I feel like, sometimes, I
know more about honest you
than I know about people
I've known for years.
Because you just kind of
put yourself out there.
But what sort of toll or
effect does that take on you,
when you have all
these people who
seem to have insight
into what you present?
DAN HARMON: Oh, it's
the opposite of a toll.
The toll was walking around
with thoughts inside my brain.
I used to--
I would go to the refrigerator--
I remember this moment,
before I started
blogging, when I was like
27, when blogging on MySpace
became a thing.
There was this thing
called MySpace.
[LAUGHTER]
And it was like, blogging
had just become a thing.
A friend of mine had told me,
yeah, it's just this thing.
I'm like, what is
it, new technology?
No-- it's just this
cultural thing, now.
People are just
keeping diaries online.
And, like, there's a guy from
Disney telling you what it's
like to storyboard for Disney--
but then also, like, what
he's eating, and stuff.
And it was like a really
crazy concept back then.
Now we have too
much transparency.
Now everyone feels kind
of pornographically--
a lot of you were born into
a world where it's like,
how do I turn that off?
How do I keep people
from seeing me showering?
How do I-- but back
then, it was like, man,
if only someone cared
about me showering.
It was like a message in
a bottle you threw out.
It was like magic technology.
But back then, when
that started happening,
I was like, this is a godsend.
Because-- I won't diagnose
myself with anything,
but I think a big part
of a lot of any disorder
is there's things rattling
around in your skull
that you're not communicating
with other people.
And that's why therapy
is so important.
And why talking to
people is so important.
What the hell is
that sound, man?
[LAUGHTER]
Are you a self-loathing
therapist?
Or are you, like--
he's going to come up
to me after, and go,
I have a breathing disorder.
And I'm going to go home and--
DANA HAN-KLEIN: Blog about it.
People go home
and blog about it.
DAN HARMON: I will go
home and blog about it.
But no-- it's like, when
you're not talking to anybody.
So let's take
depression, for instance.
You have a depressing thought.
Like, I'm a terrible
piece of shit.
I'm a total-- you
know, oh, my god, I'm
so gross and disgusting,
and everyone hates me.
I know it seems like
a social faux pas
to go to a Christmas party
and share that with everyone.
Because then they're like, what?
You ruined Christmas.
Keep it to yourself.
And that's true.
You probably shouldn't
just smear your needs
on people, or things.
There's a point
where that's toxic.
But then, there's
also a point, way
before that, where
you're toxifying yourself
for no good reason.
Because if people
knew that you were
going through some troubles, to
the extent that it was, like--
you know, they would
like to know that.
And I think the nice difference
is, with online technology,
you can actually just say,
look, I'm a fat piece of shit.
I hate myself.
I have these thoughts,
and all this stuff.
And in my experience--
I realize, if you're
clinically having stuff
going on biochemically,
the nightmare is,
there's nothing you can do.
But, in my experience, I would,
like, open my refrigerator,
see a bottle of mustard,
and for some unknown reason,
the color of the
bottle of mustard
would trigger a
memory of me trying
to be funny on Ben
Stiller's answering machine,
and him not calling back.
And I would run over the content
of the voice message I left,
and how it's so stupid--
I tried to be funny
inviting him to a party,
and of course he didn't show
up, and then we stopped--
like, what an idiot I am.
And it's like, this is a
bad thing to put on mustard.
You know?
Like, mustard should
be there for--
you should associate the
color of a mustard bottle
with mustard, with sandwiches,
with whether or not
you want mustard.
And so I went over
to the Myspace blog,
and just typed in, like, "you
know, one time"-- you know,
I just typed the memory out.
The thing that was
bouncing around
in my head, that didn't have
words being attached to it--
what was that memory?
What is it that I did
so wrong that day?
I left a funny voicemail
for Ben Stiller.
I tried to make him like me.
This is what I did.
This is where the
comedy went awry.
This is how the joke fell flat.
You know, from top to bottom--
without putting any type of plea
or fishing for, "no, it's OK,
that actually does sound
like a funny message."
Like, trying to stay on the
other side of that line,
where you're not being
unnecessarily self-loathing,
but just kind of objectively
looking at your pores,
and your wrinkles, and
your fat, and whatever--
these things about
your psychology.
And just saying--
enumerating it.
And giving it words.
And then I found it was done.
It was finished.
The only time that
story about me
trying to be funny on Ben
Stiller's voicemail ever
comes up, is this
example that I give.
It's always a healthy thing.
It always makes me feel good.
It's like a leaf on a tree, now,
that converts carbon dioxide
to oxygen, instead of
the other way around.
Before that, it was like--
it was this festering
thing inside me.
By the way-- of course,
it goes without saying--
Ben Stiller doesn't give a shit.
Like, he doesn't--
I think I mentioned it to him,
once, when I ran into him.
He's like, what?
No.
My assistant would've
screened my messages--
deleted it, I'm sure.
[LAUGHTER]
But it's like, there is this
thing about getting it out.
And now more than
ever, of course,
this current political
climate-- it's
like we are being asked
to compartmentalize,
to protect ourselves.
And also, it's hard to--
well, I'm not going
to get into that, man.
But it is like--
you said what's the toll
of barfing yourself up
onto the world?
No-- that is my relief.
That's my analgesic.
That's my methadone.
That's what keeps me from
Spalding Gray-ing, you know?
Like, it just-- the fact
that you can just say,
this is where I'm at right now.
I don't feel very
good about myself.
Or, I feel great.
Or, I'm just somewhere
in the middle,
in that, like, eternal haze.
And then people
that come up to you,
knowing that you don't have
to make small talk anymore.
They can say, like,
I have fibromyalgia,
and my dad killed
himself, and it feels so
good to listen to your podcast.
I'm like, this is great!
After 500 of those
people, after a show,
you go home and want to
Green Mile the insects up.
But it's way better than
talking about the weather
with strangers in the street.
DANA HAN-KLEIN: But
I find it interesting
that that's sort of
your perspective.
I think it's a great
perspective on it.
Just because it
seems like we do live
in this culture of
essentially, like,
if you want to be known you
have to essentially open
your life out to this.
And people do have negative
experiences with it.
So it's interesting-- I
think it's interesting
that, for me at least, it
seems like Harmon Time came out
of turning a very
negative experience,
and it became something
very, very positive.
Because it was something that
could have crippled a career,
or somebody's ability to
creatively function again.
But you turned your
time from Community
into this weird thing, that's
gained a life of its own.
And, like, spawned a
bunch of offshoots.
and this whole
culture around it.
Is that at all what
you were expecting?
Or did you just, again,
want to just sort of--
DAN HARMON: I don't know.
Yeah, the expectation--
I don't know.
It was-- again, it was always--
Community was a
brief interruption
in a lifetime of jumping up and
down and saying, "look at me,
look at me, here's
what's wrong with me."
Community-- becoming a
showrunner on an NBC show
had a political component
to it that, on one hand,
was all of a sudden giving me
this thing I thought I wanted--
which was a bunch of attention.
On the other hand,
it was, ironically,
coming with this-- you
know, I'd get a phone
call from Sony going,
that was a fun interview.
People are responding to
your sincerity shtick.
But could you not talk
about the show's budget?
Could you not use these words?
Could you not say this?
Could you not express
these thoughts?
Could the point of
view be more "this"?
And then I would say to
them, like, you can't--
why don't you have your PR
firm, and I'll have mine.
And, like, it's a conflict
of interest, here.
Like I'm Colonel Sanders, and
you're the FDA, or something.
[LAUGHTER]
Like, we should work together
to keep from poisoning people.
But at the same time,
I've got a brand.
[LAUGHTER]
And so, it was--
to Community-- like, the
big takeaway from that
was with the Chevy thing.
Like, having a kind of
accidentally-public feud
with Chevy.
And I do say
"accidentally," even
though I played his voicemails
to me into a microphone.
But I was doing that in a
closed environment, I thought.
I was naive, and I thought 150
people would find it funny,
and then it would be done.
It was, like, an LA thing.
And then someone put it online.
And my takeaway from
that became, OK,
so first of all, I should
just broadcast everything
as wide as possible.
Because I hadn't been podcasting
before that Chevy feud thing.
But then, more importantly--
you know, up until
now, that whole
"I wish people could see me
showering" kind of drive--
it's become de classe now,
in this new millennial world.
Like, we are all
connected to each other,
and you are committing a crime
when you bring other people
into your confessional shtick.
You can't.
So it's tough,
because your life is
connected to all these people.
But you do, in my opinion,
have to go all the deeper,
and be like, this is what
makes me a piece of shit--
and without somehow bringing
your girlfriend into it,
bringing your coworkers into it.
You know, like, that
should be their business.
They want to have their
vortex of transparency,
and they should be able to
do that on their own terms.
And that can be tough sometimes.
You're like, well, I'm going
to tell you this story.
But it's like, you know,
you're not an island.
But that was the big
Community takeaway.
DANA HAN-KLEIN: But
at the same time,
you found this whole
group of people
who are willing to
engage on that level.
And, like, choose to merge
their vortexes with yours.
Because, you know, I feel like
you hear all these people guest
on your podcast, and then
you guest on their podcast,
and it's just become this, like,
community in and of itself.
And I know a lot of that
also has to do with you
and Starburns kind of helping
co-produce these things.
And Starburns has become
this entity unto its own.
I feel like-- are you guys
trying to become, like,
your own media network?
DAN HARMON: Well, I'm looking
at podcasting as being,
number one, a really
unexpected cultural--
much like blogging,
it wasn't about,
"oh, my god, we suddenly
have the ability to blog."
That was the oldest
technology in the world,
and it culturally evolved.
And podcasting was very similar.
It was like, yeah, bandwidth was
needed to be there, and stuff.
But really, podcasting is--
I think it just filled this
hole that we didn't know we had,
until that bandwidth peaked out.
And then people
could go, oh, now
I can listen to this
person for two hours
while I walk my dog, chop my
carrots, and all this stuff.
And the idea of it being
audio without video
became very important.
But it also very much
encouraged output.
Like, you couldn't manage
your image anymore,
and compete with people who
were pumping themselves out,
nonstop, on a weekly schedule.
Because it quickly
became apparent
that schedule in podcasting
was very important.
That people-- it
was an addiction
that you were filling to another
person, like a radio show,
or something.
And so all of that
inadvertently created
a kind of sincerity movement.
People started-- there
were comics that made
that transition really nicely.
Marc Maron went from being
like, you know, Mark Maron--
who was no slouch doing stand
up-- but all of a sudden,
this untapped, like--
he hates the phrase, "Barbara
Walters of stand-up."
But then he all of a
sudden, like-- oh, what
he's really good at is
talking about comedy
with these comedians,
and comedians
are coming onto his show and
coming out of the closet.
And then all these unknowns--
it was, like, well, you know,
stand-up would have actually
not been for this person-- but
look how funny they are, just
as a person.
And so all of that is to say
that, like, with Starburns--
the reason I started dumping
Starburns resources into Feral
Audio, and partnering
with that--
Dustin Marshall started Feral
on handshakes and smiles
and warm feelings, and accrued
this, like, amazing family
of podcasters.
And then, because
he was going to have
to go get a job at Best
Buy, I was like, well,
what if you worked
for Starburns?
And Starburns kind of bought in?
And then Starburns said, how
about a sales department?
What if we crunched all these
numbers, go out to Snickers,
or whoever--
Orby Parker-- and say, these
are all our total numbers.
You know, what if we
put on ties and make
this a little corporate--
just enough to keep it going.
In the meantime, it
seems exciting to me--
almost as a hobby--
to be able to recognize we're
time travelers right now,
in Hollywood.
Podcasting has clear
one-to-one analogs for radio.
And then, it's not all going to
just go predictably the same,
but it is pretty
predictable to say,
there's a bandwidth
association here.
As bandwidth
becomes cheaper, you
know, this audio-only
phenomenon,
that started with sincerity
and getting to know people,
and things-- it's going to have
an offshoot that, hopefully,
keeps the radio part intact.
That that will never go away.
Like, hip-hop sprouts
a million offshoots,
but you can still, at
the end of the day,
just listen to
something called "rap."
That there will
always be podcasting,
but then there's going to
be this tremendous upcoming
movement into video podcasting.
And the early days
of television are
going to start very
lovingly haunting us again.
People are going to have
tiny little studio spaces,
and bring things up from a
cable access kind of vibe,
to a basic cable,
'80s Late Night Live.
Where it's like, OK,
there's a little bit
of professional polish
to this, but its roots
are in non-FCC compliant,
like, humanity.
Let's stop there.
[LAUGHTER]
DANA HAN-KLEIN: So, I
find it interesting,
because you have that
whole component to it.
And then, you also--
at some point,
like, didn't it start out
as an animation studio?
DAN HARMON: Yeah.
DANA HAN-KLEIN: At what
point were you guys like,
you know what?
Let's make an animated
feature in the 2000s,
when there's, like,
no money in it,
unless you're Disney
or Dreamworks.
And then get nominated for
an Oscar because of it.
DAN HARMON: Right.
That's all Dino.
Dino has always loved
stop-motion, in particular.
It starts with his love
of miniaturization.
It's actually not--
he's definitely
passionate about stop-motion,
but the foundation
is his love of puppets, dolls,
tiny things made to scale.
And so he had two stop-motion
shows on Adult Swim,
and he always wanted to
do a stop-motion studio.
Because he just felt--
naively, it turns
out-- like, hey
what are these studios doing?
Like, we used to be a part of--
not we-- Dino's shows
that he did, he was--
his studio, where the guys
that did Robot Chicken--
so Dino would just have
a corner of the warehouse
where they made Robot Chicken.
And from Dino's perception,
it was like, oh, these checks
come in from the studio--
from the network-- and then
these Robot Chicken guys--
it seems like all I have is
a corner of this warehouse,
and then it's just some money
that gets taken off the top.
If I had a warehouse, I'd
just put all the money
into my thing.
So that naive perception,
from the bottom--
it caused him to say, I want
to start in animation studio.
And then I was like, well, I
don't care about animation.
But if you think it's
the kind of thing that
could one day do live action,
we should do that together.
Can I join?
You can use my name too,
and we'll do better.
That was-- so Dino's
the animation guy.
Since doing Rick and
Morty, I've become
pretty passionate about
animation as a medium, myself.
DANA HAN-KLEIN: You have
a new season coming up.
Yes, you finished writing it.
They're drawing it right now.
That's my understanding.
DAN HARMON: Justin and
I had a huge fight.
The show's canceled.
[LAUGHTER]
DANA HAN-KLEIN: All right.
Well, that's--
DAN HARMON: I know it's a
roller coaster ride, but I--
[LAUGHTER]
DANA HAN-KLEIN: But
for the third season--
that is not cancelled,
I'm hoping--
DAN HARMON: No.
It's very-- it's coming
hot off the griddle.
DANA HAN-KLEIN: Without
spoiling any of it,
how do you push characters
like that even further?
Like, how do you--
you know, we're in
the third season.
I'm like, I can't imagine what
Rick would do, at this point,
that we wouldn't expect.
But that's your job to do.
And I feel like
it's a challenge.
And there's such a
passionate audience for it.
Like, I thought Community
had a passionate audience.
Then I met Rick and Morty fans.
DAN HARMON: Yeah, I know.
It is weird.
Like, I was explaining
it to my girlfriend.
Yeah, it's weird-- the reach.
My only metric is just wearing,
maybe, a Rick and Morty
t-shirt once in a while--
and just the number
of waiters,
bartenders, strangers
in elevators, that just
react to a logo on a t-shirt.
They don't know me.
The Community fans used to
be-- like, they'd see my face.
But I get more--
the logo I wear for Rick and
Morty gets more recognition
from people, who have no idea
who I am, than my dumb face
that was in TMZ gets
from the Community fans.
You know what I mean?
But those questions-- what
do you what do you have Rick
do next?
First of all, it's kind of
the opposite question, almost.
It's the question
of, well, we already
know Rick can do anything, so--
maybe it's not the
opposite question.
Why I am I trying
to gaslight you?
[LAUGHTER]
Your thoughts turned
backwards, are what I think!
[LAUGHTER]
No, it's not really
the opposite.
It's just that Rick is like--
yeah, he's like Doctor Who,
or Ford Prefect, or any
character that's sort of,
like, look, this guy's
got bigger fish to fry.
And the audience can get away
with not totally understanding
what's going on in his cabeza.
And also, we took very careful
steps to make him a kind
of non-shark
jumpable character--
we want him to be
kind of evergreen.
And we've been
successful in that.
So it's not so much
like, oh, no, we really
painted ourselves in a corner
with that serialized story
of the one-armed man.
Or, how are they going to get--
is this island a Rubik's Cube,
or the dream of a turtle?
We kind of implied it
was a turtle dream,
and now we're fucked.
[LAUGHTER]
We definitely don't have that.
I mean, Rick-- the earth
gets to a certain point.
Rick goes to another earth.
He collapses universal
governments for breakfast,
and stuff.
And so it's just more like
the show is a religion.
Like, it's that thing
of like, oh, man, we've
created the perfect fun machine.
And then you go--
it's just, you can't tell
when you're slipping into,
like, taking your fun
machine too seriously.
Because you want to get,
like, Dan Akroyd about it,
and go, like, yeah, but the
cool thing about a fun machine
is it runs on this.
And then you don't
notice that you've
slipped into over-thought.
And it's not as simple
as, like, oh, guys--
stop.
We're overthinking.
Let's just make it about farts!
Like--
[LAUGHTER]
It's not quite that
simple, all the time.
It's like, well, OK--
because that will be part
of chasing your tail.
Like, OK, we're just going
to make it about farts.
We had that epiphany
several times.
And then we'd go and be like,
OK, so it's just about farts--
but I guess in a joyless way.
Because we had that
epiphany, and we forced it.
Because we decided we were
just going to have fun,
and now it's like this--
you can tell we're
not having fun.
And then you throw that
away, and you're like, guys,
was it ever about farts?
What is a fart?
You know?
[LAUGHTER]
What is television?
What is existence?
What is god?
Isn't god a fart?
If god farted, could he hear it?
And would he like
the smell of it?
Do we really like
the smell of it,
or do we just not mind it
because we had a warning?
I riffed that--
that's season four.
[LAUGHTER]
And on, and on, and on.
And I think it's just
overall like, you--
well, my hope is that--
that's why season
3 is just like--
it's a dog chasing its tail.
It's just like-- it
ends up taking an hour
to make something as funny,
as entertaining, as elegant,
as it used to take
20 minutes to do.
And so all of
those hours add up.
And it ends up taking two years
to do something that's supposed
to take less than a year.
And you look back, and you
go, god, I feel so stupid.
And then only after
you've actually
gotten all the way out of it can
you actually look back and go--
you see all your footprints
through the portage.
You know, like, look-- we
picked up the canoe there,
we carried it over there.
Look where we turned left.
We're ridiculous.
You know?
And going, like, all
of that over-thought--
did the show get any better?
No.
Did it get any worse?
Nope.
Did it take an extra year?
Yeah.
Why?
I don't know, but let's
not do that ever again.
[LAUGHTER]
And that's it.
That was the difficulty
with this season.
DANA HAN-KLEIN: Do you
have a personal preference
on writing for a show
like Rick and Morty,
that has almost no constraints?
Or a show that has, maybe,
more grounding constraints?
DAN HARMON: Right
now, I'm really
jazzed about the lack
of constraint thing.
Because I feel like
it's a great era of TV,
allowing us to have that.
To have a very popular
sitcom, that's breaking rules,
that just 10 years ago
would have been, like,
absolutely deal-breakers
for studios, and networks,
and things.
It's a huge opportunity.
So that's-- it's like, do you
want to work in stem cells,
or do you want to work in,
like, in vitro fertilization?
It's like, well,
I think if we work
in stem cells for a little bit,
we're going to end up, like--
so it's like, Rick and Morty
feels like stem cells to me.
That's a good quote for--
[LAUGHTER]
DANA HAN-KLEIN: The internet?
Or the internetz?
Just going to go
back, for a second.
Can we talk about Spencer
Crittenden for a minute?
DAN HARMON: I guess.
DANA HAN-KLEIN: Where
did you find that guy?
Like--
DAN HARMON: He was--
he was just in the audience.
Yeah.
He literally wasn't a guy--
I thought that if I
said, in my podcast,
"let's play Dungeons
and Dragons"--
first of all, the
joke was supposed
to be that Dungeons
and Dragons is,
while a part of a lot
of our childhoods,
absolutely not
marketable at all.
But that was the joke.
That it was, like,
you know, we can't--
nerd culture has all
kinds of parallels
to other disenfranchised
cultures.
There was a time when nerd
culture was disenfranchised.
[LAUGHTER]
DANA HAN-KLEIN: I don't think
anyone here remembers it.
DAN HARMON: But it breaks
down in the marketability
of the primal youth stuff.
Like, the stuff you were
into when you were a kid
is, like, complicated
and boring.
And that was going
to be the joke.
Because, when I was a kid, the
idea with Dungeons and Dragons
was that it was satanic.
That was actually kind of,
like, one of the big concerns
among parents at the time.
Like, our kids are playing
these complex games, where they
have to read a lot and do math.
And it's all for Satan.
[LAUGHTER]
And I just want
to go back in time
and show them a portal to
nowadays, and go, like,
do you really want
to worry about this?
Like, your kids
are casting spells
around the kitchen table.
You fuckers.
[LAUGHTER]
Like, no-- we never
knew how good we had it.
And it was always funny to
me that, if those parents,
or church groups and things,
knew what a real gaming
session sounded
like-- it was just
kids going through puberty.
Kind of, like,
fumbling their way
around early improv
exercises, and, like,
arguing with each other.
And unable to really immerse
themselves in the narrative,
et cetera.
So the truth is, there's a
kind of a self-hating nerd vibe
to my early, "let's go
to the D&D well" stuff.
Like, lets laugh at how
our culture is not actually
that cool.
And part of that
was, I thought, let's
just turn D&D into Project
Runway, or something.
Where, I'd say on
the podcast, "we're
going to find the best
dungeon master ever."
And I figured there'd be five
dungeon masters in my audience
on any given night.
And the joke would be
how unfair I was being.
That guy would play the kind of
British Office, Ricky Gervais
kind of unreliable curator.
Of, like, oh, I like
this Dungeon Master
because he let us live
longer than this one.
And that the whole
thing would be
this ridiculous,
sacrilegious kind
of desecration of the craft.
But what happened--
there were no dungeon
masters in my audience.
There was one guy with
a nine-foot beard who
raised his hand and said
he drove from Simi Valley
that night, for the first
time, because he had
a weird feeling while he was
smoking a joint that he should
play Dungeons and
Dragons with Dan Harmon.
Which I had never
mentioned on the podcast.
And people just took
one look at him,
and they were like, this
is not a stereotype,
but at the same time,
it is like this--
I know this guy.
DANA HAN-KLEIN: I was like,
you couldn't have written him.
You couldn't have written him.
Because nobody would believe
it if he didn't actually exist.
DAN HARMON: Yeah That's how--
I mean, to not to derail,
but it's like I do--
DANA HAN-KLEIN: Are you saying
you don't want a tangent?
I don't want to derail--
I want to keep everything
nice, and compartmentalized,
and orderly.
But that was a bit, like--
Jim rash being
cast on Community--
that was always my big thing.
Was like, we were casting a dean
in a screwball college story.
So is he going to have
the little bow tie?
There's only so many
deans, you know?
You got your Robert Stacks.
And then you got your little,
diminished, like, beta guys,
with the checkered
shirt, and things.
And maybe, then-- if
you're super progressive
in the '90s-- oh, it's
a ball-busting lesbian,
or something.
It's like, how many dean
characters are you--
like, we need this person to
be like Louie DePalma in Taxi.
It's like, was that an
archetype, you know?
Like, Danny DeVito's
character in Taxi--
it was, like, this
crazy thing, where
he could be a villain one
minute, and a hero the next.
Because he was just
an authority figure.
And so when Jim Rash
walked in and started
doing his take on the dean--
it was the same
thing with Spencer.
It's that phenomenon of,
you couldn't write this.
You can't write this persona.
It's a real person.
But at the same time, they
make being a real person
seem so epic.
Because there's such clean
lines around what they are
and aren't.
But-- yeah.
DANA HAN-KLEIN: I just think
it's interesting how, like,
the introduction of Spencer--
you know, I could be wrong,
but I feel like the Harmon Time
documentary wouldn't
have necessarily worked
unless you had that kind
of, like, narrative arc.
And then you have Harmon
Quest because of it.
It's like something
you guys kept doing.
You could've easily just stopped
playing D&D, and Shadowrun,
and stuff like that.
But you have this human
in your life, now,
who's also very much a part
of what you do professionally,
now, is my understanding.
DAN HARMON: And personally.
DANA HAN-KLEIN: And personally.
DAN HARMON: I've hired a friend.
DANA HAN-KLEIN: Yeah.
DAN HARMON: It's odd.
I'm conflicted
about it, sometimes.
Because I have Steve
Levy, and I have Spencer.
Like, I don't want--
it's like my friends
are my assistants.
Like, I hired Spencer
as an assistant,
because it made sense.
But also, Spencer
executive-produced Harmon Quest
season one and two.
And literally, he did it
himself on season two.
I was there next
to him, pretending
to keep my hands on the
wheel for season one,
but in reality
was doing nothing,
while Spencer kind of
stepped into the role
from writing to audio mixing.
And then, so season two,
I was like, you know
I wasn't doing anything, right?
Yeah.
OK.
Bye.
And he EP'd season
two flawlessly.
And so, on one
hand, he's a peer.
He's just a showrunner.
But he's half my age-- or
2/3 my age-- and the other--
I don't own a car.
So he's also my chauffeur.
[LAUGHTER]
And I don't do
anything but work.
And I work a lot with him.
So you have this weird, like,
situation where I wake up
every morning, and
the person that I
pay to be in my life
picks me up for work.
But we don't have
to make eye contact,
and we don't have to speak,
because it's not weird
if we don't speak, because
we're not just friends--
we're coworkers.
And everything is
arranged around function.
Meep meep, moop moop.
Like, just enough that
we're shielded, emotionally.
Which allows for a
level of intimacy.
I mean, like, if--
I mean, it would jump the shark
of the relationship to say it,
so hopefully he doesn't
watch Google, or anything--
but, you know, he's like
one of my best friends.
And it's like an adopted son
and an adopted father, to boot.
Because he's smarter than me.
But what is that?
It's simultaneously the
least healthy most healthy
relationship in the world.
And I have that pretty
much with everybody.
Like, I don't talk to
my biological family--
I just have this weird,
sprawling network
of employee-friends.
DANA HAN-KLEIN: But
I think it goes back
to your very first
point-- about how
you seem to enjoy kind of
nurturing people, in a sense.
You know?
Like, being involved in
stuff, but also letting them
do their own thing.
And being like, no,
this is how you actually
should do it, instead of
you doing it yourself.
Like, you've empowered
people to kind of become
entities and creators
in their own rights.
And--
DAN HARMON: The
cynical way of putting
it would be that
I'm trying to take
an end-run around
emotional connection,
by intellectualizing what
is essentially family.
And making it a
construct that has
to do with
productivity and stuff.
And so that I'm
using circuits that
are built for
non-emotional things
to create a simulation
of emotional connection.
And that's not to
say the circuits that
run the emotional
stuff aren't working.
It's just that they're
probably terrifying.
And they throw sparks, and
stuff, for whatever reason.
And so it's a crime, that
should be prosecuted.
Which I am doing in therapy.
Eventually, I'm going to need
to say, "you're my friend."
Not my, whatever-- guy
that delivers licorice.
You know?
It's like, it's just--
it's got to be an
unhealthy crutch.
Friends, you love
unconditionally.
Like, Spencer should be able to
come to my house at this point,
with blood all over
his hands, and say,
"I murdered a hitchhiker."
And I should say,
"let's bury the body."
DANA HAN-KLEIN: But you drive.
DAN HARMON: (LAUGHS)
But you drive.
[LAUGHTER]
Did you murder
him with your car?
No, in it.
OK.
You drive.
[LAUGHTER]
DANA HAN-KLEIN: All right.
So, living or dead,
who is someone you'd
like to collaborate with?
DAN HARMON: Living or dead.
Oh, god damn it.
I-- you know, I really want
to work with Mitch Hurwitz.
Like, we're always talking about
doing like special projects
together.
So that's a good one.
DANA HAN-KLEIN: Who was
your favorite childhood
hero or heroine?
DAN HARMON: Do fictional
characters count?
DANA HAN-KLEIN: Yeah.
DAN HARMON: I really obsessed
about agent Dale Cooper,
from the original Twin Peaks.
Like, I really wanted to be--
not Kyle McLaughlin--
Dale Cooper.
Like, I wanted to be, like, a
smart, spiritual person that
carried a gun and solved crimes.
DANA HAN-KLEIN: Are you
watching the current one?
DAN HARMON: I
haven't seen it yet.
DANA HAN-KLEIN: Are you
afraid that it will like
shake your admiration for that?
DAN HARMON: Well, I'm 44.
So I'm like-- I can handle it.
But at the same time
it's like, it's not--
I can already tell
that it's going
to be something different.
So I'm in no hurry to watch it.
I figure it'll keep.
DANA HAN-KLEIN: What's a
guilty pleasure of yours,
that you haven't
talked about already?
DAN HARMON: I mean--
Intervention, the
TV show, I guess.
I love-- and Hoarders, too.
Like, my girlfriend doesn't
like Hoarders as much.
Probably because
she's like, dude,
you'd be a hoarder if you
didn't have a housekeeper.
But I like watching
Intervention and Hoarders,
because I think it is
absolutely, 100% accurate.
To say, it makes me feel
like I'm not that fucked up.
I like just watching people.
And I also like
judging the people.
Not judging them
for their addiction,
because the addiction
clearly is, like--
that's what you learn
from Intervention.
It's like, yeah-- it's
just a sickness, that
could happen to any of us.
But I like judging
them as people,
and deciding which
people deserve
to overcome their addiction.
[LAUGHTER]
Based on whether
they're my definition
of good person or bad person.
It's a pretty fun time.
DANA HAN-KLEIN: If
people were to stage
an intervention
in your life, what
do you think it would be for?
DAN HARMON: I mean, it would
be easy to stage one for--
well, I don't know.
For the drinking, because that's
a substance, and it's a thing--
but then again, I'm
such a functional--
if I'm an alcoholic, I'm such
a functional alcoholic, like,
what are you going to do?
I'd just be, like--
if I walked into an
intervention for booze,
I'd be like, all right.
So you drink a pot of coffee,
I'll drink a fifth of vodka,
and let's have a life contest.
I'm still going to beat you.
So what--
[LAUGHTER]
And it's like-- and then
they'd be like, yeah,
but you're killing yourself.
I'd be like, yeah, but you
can't do anything about it.
They'd be like, you're right.
[LAUGHTER]
And then I'd walk off.
And also, like-- oh,
yeah, come on you guys.
Read your letters.
You're not going to cut
me out of your life.
You're right.
All right-- gotcha.
But the workaholism
thing, I think, would be--
it would be like, stop feeling
like you have stuff left to do,
and just hang out.
And I'd be like, we are.
And they'd say, yeah.
It's not really an intervention.
We just wanted to get
high and watch movies.
[LAUGHTER]
DANA HAN-KLEIN: Well,
I was going to ask,
what's something you wish
you had more time for.
But it sounds like that
might be an answer.
DAN HARMON: Yeah.
I love watching horrible
movies with my friend
Rob [? Schrab, ?] that I moved--
you know, is my oldest friend.
I have friends that
I've known longer.
But [? Schrab ?] was
in my life the most.
Like, I came to LA with
him from Milwaukee.
And we have, since
we were in our 20s,
we've always just loved
sitting down and watching
awful '80s movies about
cyborgs, or just bad movies.
And I wish I had time
to do that all the time.
DANA HAN-KLEIN: How do you
define personal success?
DAN HARMON: The amount
of misery that you
take in, versus put out.
Like, how much
pain is coming in,
and how much pleasure is
going out to other people.
It's like a plant, you know?
Just CO2 and O2.
Like, is your
account in the black.
As far as, like-- so
if somebody hurts you,
if somebody punches you in the
face, and it hurts like hell,
and you're really mad,
you're an unsuccessful life
if you then go punch
five people in the face.
Because you took in pain and
caused five times as much.
Even if they're-- but, you know,
look-- if you're John Wick,
and all those guys are,
like, facepunchers--
there's nuance there, I guess.
That's why we love those movies.
Like, the idea that you could
solve the world's problems
by just punching more people
than you got punched by.
But in reality, I think
success is defined by,
can you actually convert--
when somebody punches
you in the face,
can you actually then go put
on a one-woman show about--
why did I make it a woman
just for the face punching?
I was like, why don't
you do that thing
where you switch pronouns,
like every other time.
DANA HAN-KLEIN: And
that's the one you chose?
DAN HARMON: And it was an
unfortunate coincidence.
Like, "if you get punched
in the face, then you--
a woman--"
[LAUGHTER]
(LAUGHS) I thought the
phrase "one-man show"
would be so oppressive.
Like that's the
patriarchy coming down.
One man!
It's a one-man show, in
my hypothetical theatrical
endeavor.
If you get punched in the
face, and put on a one-man show
called, "I Got
Punched In The face"--
[LAUGHTER]
And it's like, people
that go into it,
that are having bad
days-- who didn't even get
punched in the face, or are like
fighting cancer, or something--
and they come out going,
like, I feel so much better
now that I saw that guy's show.
Thank god he got
punched in the face.
That's success.
DANA HAN-KLEIN: It
could be a woman who
punched him in the face, too.
DAN HARMON: It could have.
It definitely was a woman
that punched him in the face.
DANA HAN-KLEIN:
Equal-opportunity face
punching.
DAN HARMON: John Wick-ess.
DANA HAN-KLEIN: Ooh.
[LAUGHTER]
John can be an
androgynous first name.
DAN HARMON: So high-roaded.
[LAUGHTER]
You are correct.
DANA HAN-KLEIN: What is one of
the most unique fan experiences
or encounters you've had?
DAN HARMON: Unusual?
I mean-- yeah.
They're all very intimate.
And I don't want
to get punitive.
I don't want to be like,
oh, there was this person,
and put a log on that fire.
Like there's a wrong way to--
because so many people are
awkward, and not having
their best moment.
Especially if they're excited.
So I don't want to be like, oh,
there was this creepy person.
That doesn't happen to me a lot.
So I'm trying to think of a
positive, like, weird one.
I don't know.
They're just all so great.
It's just, like, the
funniest stuff will happen
while you're on the move.
Like, somebody is saying we
have to get from one location
to another.
And then people
only have what they
perceive as a fleeting
window to make their mark.
And so they just-- and how
to phrase those things.
So they just say
the craziest things.
Like, "Mr. Harmon, can
I give you a joint?"
Like--
[LAUGHTER]
Which just sounds like a weird--
DANA HAN-KLEIN: It's
very formal, too.
DAN HARMON: Yeah, exactly.
It's like she
doesn't want to say--
like, yes, you may, madam.
Thank you.
I grew it in my
garden, and I use it--
they're trailing off, as you're
being shoved like the Beatles
into a limo.
Like, all right-- it sounds like
she worked hard on this joint.
I mean, I'm trying to think--
I know that there's, you know--
I mean, my unusual fan
relationships include people
that have made their
lives a part of the show,
and opened them up.
You know?
There's Jane, who, when
we met her, was Jan.
Who was his pseudonym,
because he was feeling weird
about his upcoming
transition, and things.
And it was like--
getting to know Jane on
stage, in the show, included
the beginnings of
the relationship--
in which it was a
person that had already
made the commitment
to transition,
but wasn't sure how they
wanted to present themselves.
And that we got to have
that conversation, too--
i.e., "well, the first
time I came on the show,
I introduced myself
as so-and-so.
And that's because
I was nervous.
I didn't want to become a
symbol of any kind of movement,
or anything.
But the truth is, this is what
I'm going through in my life."
And I don't know, those
friendships and people
becoming characters in, like,
your McDonaldland pantheon.
Which is this crass, corporate
way to present friendships.
Like, what are you--
there's a fine line between
Howard Stern's Whack Pack
and McDonaldland's,
like, assembly
of different characters.
This one is the
Hamburglar, but this one
loves giving hamburgers.
But then, at the bottom of that,
it's like, well, what is this?
It's just this is how
we form friendships.
What else are we going to do?
How long do I ever take
to talk to a stranger?
And so, you know,
Jane becoming--
going from being somebody that
can answer all my questions
about what is this thing
that we keep hearing about,
transgender?
I don't know anything.
Can I ask my dumb, middle age
straight white male questions
about this stuff, without being
afraid of getting yelled at?
And the answer is
yes, with this person.
And then that
blossoming into, OK.
So, now I got it--
all the information I need,
currently, to actually say,
I'm an advocate.
And then also, you're my friend,
so next time you come on,
can we talk about
something else?
Like the fact that you are a
glassblowing scientist, and all
that stuff.
Or your relationship
with your son.
And so, I mean, it's not a
story about a person coming up
with a dead raccoon and
saying, "sign this."
But it is the unusual--
like, it's the fact that there's
a very fine line between fan
and friend, and vice versa--
for better or for
worse, with me.
Jane, when she comes
into town, you know,
she knows she can
just stay at my place.
But, it's like a hotel.
Like, there's a
code for my door.
And I-- like, she just comes
and uses it like a hotel,
and I don't talk to her.
Like, I go, I'm busy.
That's odd.
And weird, Larry
Sanders creepy, almost.
Like, in terms of my
compartmentalisation.
But at the same time, it's
like, that's friendship.
DANA HAN-KLEIN: I
was going to say,
I feel like that's actually,
like, a more intimate level.
Where, like, you're so OK
with somebody just coming
into your home, and
you know that maybe
they don't want to make
small talk right now.
Because they have
something to do.
They're in town for
their own thing.
You know, I feel like that
hosting level is a nice thing
to have.
DAN HARMON: Yeah.
DANA HAN-KLEIN: Well,
speaking of fans,
we now have time for a
few audience questions.
DAN HARMON: It's weird that
you guys have questions--
because you're Google.
[LAUGHTER]
DANA HAN-KLEIN: How
do you think we get
all the info for everything?
DAN HARMON: That's got to
be the first Google Q&A
joke ever made.
DANA HAN-KLEIN: Absolutely.
DAN HARMON: You guys
can't just type this
into Yahoo Answers, and--
DANA HAN-KLEIN: We Bing it.
AUDIENCE: Hi, Dan.
DAN HARMON: Hello.
AUDIENCE: So my question
is, Rick and Morty
has a lot of guest actors--
one of my favorites being
Jermaine Clement, who's
sang "Goodbye Moon Man."
So my question is, what is
the process like for choosing
the guest actors?
Do you create the character
based on the actor
that you want, or is it
more, like, vice versa?
DAN HARMON: The character
usually comes first.
I can't think of an
example of writing
a character for an actor--
with the exception
of Brandon Johnson.
I think we knew we wanted
him to be the math teacher,
and sort of created Mr.
Goldenfold around Brandon
Johnson's humor.
But yeah-- as far
as-- it's usually
like, we get so caught up in
storytelling that we end up
with these characters.
And then we'll go, OK,
what about Joel McHale?
Or something like that.
AUDIENCE: OK.
Thank you.
AUDIENCE: Hi.
So you had Community,
which was kept alive
so many times by the
fanbase, and everything.
And then it ended
up going to Yahoo--
which you're able to, like,
beautifully wrap it up,
because you never know the life
of the next streaming service.
But then, on the other hand,
you had Paul Feig's Other Space,
which just was getting started.
So now, you're on to Harmon
Quest being on Seeso's network.
How do we help you,
maybe, keep alive
Harmon Quest, when we're not
sure where Seeso may end up?
But we still, you know--
it's a beautiful thing, that
you don't want to die too early.
You know?
DAN HARMON: Yeah, I
mean, the nice thing
with a service like
Seeso would be-- well,
there's one clear answer, which
is just subscribe to Seeso.
But we can't control--
I mean, we could-- every Harmon
Quest fan in the world could
subscribe to Seeso, and if
Universal appraises Seeso
as being a venture not worth--
or that they want to do
something else-- like,
that's the tough thing
about fandom these days.
I know your feeling.
Because I watched--
I binged the first season
of Patriot on Amazon.
And I just-- halfway through
it, I had this panic, you know?
Like, is anyone
else watching this?
And what can I do to help?
And I-- yeah.
I wish I had a
satisfying answer.
I really do.
Get a tattoo.
No.
[LAUGHTER]
Align yourself with creative
forces that, no matter what
the outside world
does to us, they
will keep on putting
stuff out because
of some mental disorder.
It's OK.
[LAUGHTER]
AUDIENCE: Of all the
characters you've created,
which one do you
most identify with?
DAN HARMON: I mean, I
guess for me, it was always
a straight
down-the-middle split,
on Community, between
Jeff Winger and Abed.
That was the idea--
that Jeff Winger
was the parts of me
that had adapted to performance,
and manipulation of others,
and getting people to like
them, and materialism,
and all those things.
And that Abed was, not the
real me, but the parts of me
that would be left over if
you carved all that Jeff
Winger off, and vice versa.
Neither is the real me.
If you fused those two
characters together
in a perfect 50/50 alloy,
that it would turn into this,
like, slovenly, weird,
stammering, selfish person.
DANA HAN-KLEIN:
Speaking of performance,
did you ever expect
to do as much--
essentially--
performing as you do?
Because you basically, like,
get up on stage once a week.
And you perform in
front of large crowds.
DAN HARMON: I was hanging
it more and more up
as I started doing Community.
But then I started
weaponizing it,
because I felt like I was
at war with a lot of people
that were politically
facile, behind the scenes.
And then what I noticed is that,
whenever they came toward me,
if I was standing
in a spotlight,
their skin started to bubble.
And they would say
the wrong things,
and they would back away.
And I'd be like,
OK, let's increase
the radius of that spotlight.
Let's intensify it.
It was kind of a
crass tactical move--
based on watching
30 Rock, and seeing
that Tina Fey had this enviable
control over her franchise.
Because she was on screen,
and who would question her,
with her resume?
And then also, just the fact
that she was Paul Newman
on her own salad dressing.
And so it's like,
well, I'm not an actor,
but I can at least
do off-screen what
Tina Fey is doing,
and kind of, like,
become the face of my content.
And that will help solidify
my power against my enemies--
who weren't my enemies.
DANA HAN-KLEIN: But if
you ever had enemies,
you'd solidified your power.
AUDIENCE: Hi, Mr. Harmon.
DAN HARMON: Hello.
AUDIENCE: Hello.
So, I love Rick and
Morty, and I was
wondering what your favorite
episode to create was?
Or to watch, I guess.
DAN HARMON: Favorite episode
of Rick and Morty so far--
I don't know.
I get--
DANA HAN-KLEIN: Season
three, episode five.
[LAUGHTER]
DAN HARMON: Right.
Well, there is one
coming up shortly,
in season three, that's
one of my favorites.
I think it airs--
I think there's one
coming up, and then I
think it's the one after that.
I think it's--
[LAUGHTER]
DANA HAN-KLEIN: On the
"hm-hmm" of "mm-hmm."
DAN HARMON: It's season
three, episode three.
You may have seen, like,
promotional stuff, so it's not
a spoiler to say
"Pickle Rick," I think.
And it was just really fun
to talk about that episode,
because it was so
simultaneously elegant,
and then kind of ended up
going so deep, I guess.
We'll see how you
react to it, though.
Because a part of me is like,
if everybody in this room
says something sucks, then not
only will I, out of cowardice,
never admit that I disagree--
I will also, like--
my brain will change.
Like, if everyone in the
room said an episode sucked,
I'd be like, yeah, that sucked.
Like, I would just believe it.
Because it's TV.
What are you doing,
If you're not trying
to make people like something?
You know?
It's hard to, like--
oh, this episode rules,
no matter what you pricks say.
It kind of, like,
defeats the purpose
of television as a medium.
It would be like if
Shakespeare was like, ah,
I love sonnets so much,
this one's got 90 syllables
in the first line.
Like, what?
No.
Part of the medium is, like,
people going, "that was good."
And then it's good.
It's TV, not church.
[LAUGHTER]
DANA HAN-KLEIN: I think
that's actually debatable.
Some people look to
TV more than religion.
DAN HARMON: Well, it's
better than church--
it will fulfill you, in the end.
[LAUGHTER]
DANA HAN-KLEIN: Wait.
So who do you turn--
DAN HARMON: You get t-shirts,
and then you wear them.
It's not, you know, just
put money in a plate,
and it's like, what--
you have to-- who's--
DANA HAN-KLEIN: There are plenty
of, like, Jesus paraphernalia
things.
They've got their
own swag thing going.
But who do you look
to for feedback
before it gets to that stage?
Like, who do you look to when
you're in the process of it?
DAN HARMON: That's
the tough part.
Well, you're looking
to your colleagues.
You look to the
writers you trust--
Ryan Ridley, and Mike
McMahan, and Justin Roiland
and everybody.
Like, everybody's all in
a room, sardined together.
And you're kind of
trying to keep yourselves
from losing your
minds by checking in
with each other-- is this funny?
Is that funny?
But it's hard.
Because, like, you can't--
you'd be a bad TV writer
if Dan Harmon or Justin
Roiland jumped up and said, this
is going to be really funny!
This is amazing!
This is amazing!
And it's like, well, you're not
a great TV writer for saying,
shut up!
Sit down, Harmon.
You know?
Like, no, it's not funny.
But you're also not, maybe,
doing the show a huge favor
by constantly only saying, Yep.
Yep.
That's true.
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
But we're all feeling that way.
So if you're at the
top, then it's like,
what are you supposed to do?
So the answer is,
like, you self-loathe,
and you open the door for people
to tell you you're crazy--
but you also get mad if they do.
Oh, boy.
Yeah.
But it's just, you
kind of collectively--
you hold yourselves hostage.
You wait for
Stockholm to set in,
and hope that that
creates a good idea.
But there is no way of knowing.
Also, that's the crazy thing--
is like, we act like we--
that was my biggest mistake.
Like, that's the big thing
I'm going to fundamentally
change about myself, after
season three of Rick and Morty.
Got to stop thinking that,
just because, technically
speaking, everybody
in the final product
is saying stuff that was typed,
that that typing is somehow--
it's not the same
as architecture,
where it's like,
that's the blueprint.
Therefore, unless
everything is--
it's a different
kind of process.
And I have to understand
that and accept that-- that
so much changes and evolves.
That you have to write a script,
and finish it, and hand it off,
so that the process of
it changing 1,000 times
can begin early enough that
changing it 1,000 times
doesn't put you behind schedule.
And so agonizing
over the wording
of jokes and monologues and
things is, like, a big mistake.
And I tend to
really over-write--
what was the question?
What am I-- where am I?
[LAUGHTER]
But that's just occurring to me.
So it's good I came here.
DANA HAN-KLEIN: Glad
we can be of service.
AUDIENCE: So, out
of all the shows
that are airing right now,
what's your favorite show?
And then, who are your--
outside of your circle-- who
are your favorite writers
or producers that
you look up to?
DAN HARMON: Right now, just
as of an hour before leaving
the hotel room, I
just started watching
Decker for the first time--
Tim Heidecker's
thing. (LAUGHS) I'm
kind of excited to
get caught up on that.
What is it, the thing that we're
watching, comedy-wise, lately?
You can't help.
You're not a life-saver.
Because I feel like--
it's just, like,
we always default to true crime.
Because I want to
just turn my brain off
of the concept of comedy.
So I'm trying to think, who are
the people that I look up to?
I mean, almost everybody.
I hate to be corny, but--
I mean, I haven't
seen The Big Sick yet.
But I'm really proud to
know Kumail, and watch
him and Emily take their
story and capture it, and then
put it out.
You know?
Like, I surround myself with
people that intimidate me,
and that I admire--
and then I don't
watch their stuff.
I don't watch Atlanta,
and I don't watch--
there's this huge
backlog of stuff
I should be watching because
I'm proud of my friends.
And then something keeps
me from doing that stuff.
I think it has-- it's
not just petty envy.
I don't think that's true.
It's has something
more to do with,
I don't want to ruin
it, or something.
Like, I don't want to--
DANA HAN-KLEIN: Well, you run
the risk of not liking it.
DAN HARMON: Yeah.
There's that.
I think that's what it is.
It's like, I don't want to--
like, I obsess about act breaks,
and joke landings, and things,
as if it's, like, some
kind of architecture.
And then you watch
your friend's show,
and they get away with working
so much less-hard on something
that you agonized over.
And you just, like, get
filled-- you know, like,
"that's an act break?
Come on!
You can't just fart
and go to commercial."
And then you're
like, well, what?
So you're not enjoying this?
It's hard.
It's like you don't
want to create
that situation for yourself.
But there's got to be something.
What is it?
God damn it.
I always-- I swear, I'm
always watching stuff
where I literally say, "you
need to write this down.
Because you're going
to be at a panel,
and someone is
going to say, what
are you watching right now?
What are you thinking?"
And I don't do it.
My mind draws a complete blank.
All I can think is, I just
watch shows about murder.
And--
DANA HAN-KLEIN: Hoarders.
DAN HARMON: Yeah.
Sorry.
I'll think of it later, I guess.
AUDIENCE: Hey.
So a lot of my favorite Dungeons
and Dragons experiences are--
DAN HARMON: Handmaid's Tale!
[LAUGHTER]
I really-- I was like--
DANA HAN-KLEIN: --like Steve
Carrel, The 40-Year-Old--
Handmaid's Tale!
DAN HARMON: I was,
like, up and down on it.
Like, we were--
I was knocking it's use
of those needle drops.
Like the '80s needle
drops, where it's like,
she's walking-- why is
she doing a Mean Girls
walk, after this weird thing?
I'm like, just hang back.
Don't Dansplain this to
yourself, and watch it.
As of that, like, "Heart
of Glass" riot scene,
where everything starts
falling out-- it was like,
that's such a--
that's currently what
I'm like addicted to,
that's not nonfiction.
And I'm not--
I think, at this
point, there's a finale
that we haven't caught up to.
All right.
Now, what do you want?
AUDIENCE: I was going
to say, I love it
when the players of a
Dungeons and Dragons game
kind of take the game off
the rails with power gaming,
and create this
world-breaking hell hole.
Do you have any
plans of something
like that, maybe, for
Harmon Quest in the future?
DAN HARMON: Do you
mean, like, storytelling
where you transition between
the world we call the real world
and the fantasy world?
Are you talking about--
AUDIENCE: I mean, where
they kind of, like,
take the DM for a
ride, and end up
producing armies of
minion abominations,
and becoming gods,
and stuff like that.
DAN HARMON: I
don't think Spencer
will allow that to happen.
AUDIENCE: Oh.
DAN HARMON: He keeps
a very tight grip,
as a dungeon master.
You know?
DANA HAN-KLEIN: That's fair.
DAN HARMON: I don't know
if you've noticed that.
It's like, its kind
of hard to break-- you
can't start bullying
him, narratively.
You'll just walk into a
tree that grows in your way.
AUDIENCE: That's fair.
DANA HAN-KLEIN: All right.
We have time for our
last two questions.
DAN HARMON: Yes, you
can give me a joint.
DANA HAN-KLEIN: --Mr. Harmon.
AUDIENCE: That's not
what I was going to--
sign my dead raccoon.
No.
So, I saw a
documentary, recently,
that asked this question to
a bunch of Hollywood people,
and I'm curious to
hear your side of it,
since you've basically
built a career
on self-doubt and
self-hatred publicly.
Do you think that you need to
be an asshole to be successful?
DAN HARMON: (LAUGHS)
No, I don't.
Not at all.
I mean, it almost seems
the opposite, doesn't it?
Successful is one
thing-- good is another.
I don't know.
Like, that's the big dichotomy
that we tend to enforce--
"we" being assholes--
is that, "oh, he's
successful because he's nice.
But is he really talented?
Don't you really have to be an
asshole to be super-talented?"
And I don't believe
that, either.
No.
I don't think that.
I used to think that you
had to go to a dark place
in order to create, because
creation is destruction,
and blah, blah, blah.
And, like-- no.
Like, that's just something
that sickness tells you,
because it wants to stay you.
Like, it's in charge, and it's
like, I don't want to leave.
So what am I going to--
do I want you to go to therapy?
No, I don't.
I am your sickness.
I'll go away.
But I think creativity
is more just, like,
getting over your bullshit, and
letting stuff flow through you.
One way to do that is to
get so drunk and angry,
and fall apart so much,
that you have nothing left
but what's coming through you.
Another way to do that
is to breathe four times.
Or eat some yogurt.
[LAUGHTER]
Or be in love.
Or take a vacation.
Or play with a choo-choo train.
Or, like, take a week off
and play some video games.
The end result is just,
like, getting your ego out
of the way, and letting
it flow through you.
So you definitely don't
have to be an asshole.
An argument could be
made you shouldn't.
What a dick question, right?
DANA HAN-KLEIN: I know.
It's like he wanted you to be
an asshole with the answer.
DAN HARMON: (LAUGHS)
I'm just kidding.
AUDIENCE: Hi.
So it sounds like, you
know, you're really busy,
and you've also alluded a few
times to being a workaholic.
So I'm actually
really curious what
motivated you to kind of take
time, and come out to Google.
You know-- do you
view this as research?
Has it been productive for you?
And what's been your
impression so far?
DAN HARMON: Well, you
get an offer like this--
and I'm not I'm not trying to
be funny-- and it's an honor.
You know?
It's like, well, this is--
when I'm 55, there's going to
come a point when I'm like,
hopefully, off to the
sidelines, and done
participating in the world.
And do I want to have
spoken at Google?
Yeah.
You know?
It's like, whether you
guys become Skynet, or--
[LAUGHTER]
--or the saviors of the
universe, or something
in between, there's going to
be a historical context to it.
You know?
And it would be nice to have
my little swipey paper thing,
or something, in a little jar.
You know?
DANA HAN-KLEIN: Laminated,
preserved forever.
DAN HARMON: I keep
all my laminates.
It's like, you know,
hung around a door knob.
And it's like, the
size of the stack--
it's like, oh, people wanted
to hear you talk all the time.
It's just an irresistible
kind of honor.
It makes you feel good.
And I heard you have
90 kinds of kale.
[LAUGHTER]
DANA HAN-KLEIN: This is true.
This is absolutely true.
So--
DAN HARMON: I've never not
eaten 90 kinds of kale before.
I want to experience saying
"no" to 90 kinds of kale.
DANA HAN-KLEIN: It's
all about choices.
I think my very
last question is,
if you could go back 10
years and tell yourself
one piece of advice,
what would it be?
Or would you choose
not to go back?
DAN HARMON: No, I would go back.
I mean, yeah-- assuming that I'm
not passing up an opportunity
to use that power
(LAUGHS) in a better way.
If I could just, like, call
through a little toilet paper
tube to myself at 34, I think
I'd say, you know, relax.
Something like that.
Something like--
I'd figure it out.
I'd go, OK, where
was I at that time,
and what do I
really need to hear?
It's like, it's going to be
fine no matter what you do.
Which sounds like a
horrible, complacent message.
But it's me speaking to myself.
Not saying, you don't have a
responsibility to contribute,
but to say, you
need to let yourself
off the hook a little bit.
You're probably, at
the end of the day,
just going to screw
a bunch of stuff up.
And then also,
like, accidentally
make some good stuff.
And then something-- your
prostate, or something--
will just start killing you.
Like, who cares?
If you're just an animated
skeleton with meat on it,
it's gross.
DANA HAN-KLEIN: Sound advice.
Sound advice.
[LAUGHTER]
Well, thank you so much.
Thanks for joining us today.
[APPLAUSE]
