(slow techno hip hop music)
[Frank Bruno] I'm not nothing special,
all I am is a guy from South London,
who has done pretty well for himself.
Kept it very, very real.
Still keeping it very, very real.
When you train to be a boxer,
you're going in there.
Mike Tyson, Mickey Mouse,
Donald Duck, it's war.
I think in life you've got
to lose before you win.
And to take a beating
to know about hardship.
(upbeat music)
I got sectioned three times,
it was one of the worst times of my life.
I don't think it was very, very fair.
But sometimes life ain't fair.
Well religion is a very, very sweet thing,
but a lot of people may be getting
too intertwined with religion.
We need to know that we're
here on borrowed time.
Delete a lot of the negativity
and bring some love.
It will get worse before it gets better,
but as long as I can just fly the flag
for human beings, there's
a lot of people out there
suffering, who haven't
got a chance to say,
I will do it until I die.
(piano music)
(narrator) They say that
the human race is doomed.
That we have lost touch
with our true nature.
That the media has corrupted us.
And that the planet has no future.
I disagree.
I believe that humanity is full of hope,
and that our salvation
lies within each one of us.
My name is Brian Rose.
And my job is to listen.
The oldest method of
learning known to man.
Each week I seek out individuals
that are changing the world.
People who are living and
thinking in a different way.
Their stories that will
challenge your beliefs.
Make you question your choices.
And perhaps, inspire you to change.
I never planned on doing any of this.
But now,
I can't stop.
Join me on this mission.
And make humanity something
we can all be proud of.
When it comes to British boxing,
Frank Bruno is a true legend.
40 wins under his belt.
Fought Mike Tyson twice,
and fought Lennox Lewis for the belt.
He is known as a pure
gentleman in the sport
of boxing in this country.
But his story doesn't stop there.
Frank was diagnosed
with bi-polar disorder,
and three times was forcibly admitted
to mental institutions.
Inside, he was given heavy
pharmaceutical drugs,
which drove him nearly to the edge.
And in his new book he
talks all about that.
And he also talks about
the pharmaceuticals drugs
that you and I use to
control our mental state,
and how we must be much more careful
with what we put into our bodies.
Frank is now medication free
and he's very proud of it.
I know you're going to enjoy this episode,
he is just such a cool guy.
I love spending time with him.
He's a natural.
He's a real dude, so sit back and enjoy.
And inside the London Real Academy,
we're kicking off another
business accelerator,
eight weeks we turn your
passion into a revenue
generating business.
We've graduated over 500
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around the world.
So check it out.
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[Narrator] London Real doesn't stop
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(upbeat music)
- This is London Real, I am Brian Rose.
My guest today is Frank Bruno.
The former British Heavyweight
World Champion boxer.
Known for your incredible punching power.
You have a total of 40
wins under your belt.
38 by way of knock out.
You fought Lennox Lewis for the title,
and had two epic bouts with Mike Tyson.
The second one ending your career.
You're one of the most loved
and recognisable boxers
in Britain.
And your life and struggles
with mental health
have been highly publicised by the media.
In your new book "Let Me Be Frank",
you open up about living
with bi-polar disorder
in the hope of taking
away some of the stigma
attached to this illness.
Frank, welcome to London Real.
- Thank you very much Brian, thank you.
- It's amazing having you here.
- Cheers.
- What's it like to come back to London?
I know you grew up here.
But I know you spend a lot
of time in the countryside.
- Yeah.
- And how much has this city changed
since you were a kid here?
- I think the city is one of the best
cities in the world, do
you know what I mean?
But with all that's
going on around the world
at the moment, everybody's
on edge and getting jumpy.
But London is a nice place,
but I like the country.
I'm a country man.
I like the fresh air,
the fields and whatever.
But it's a nice place, London,
but it's very
not jumpy but, all the
different things what happened
in 2017 it just makes people,
red alert.
- Yeah. You're big on
children having respect
for their elders.
And I was wondering what
were you like as a kid
in South London?
Were you the one that had
respect for their elders?
Or did you kind of learn that over time?
- I didn't have no choice, you know?
I was bought up with, I had
three sisters and two brothers.
And I had a brother that
watched my back all the time.
But it taught me a lot
of discipline and focus
and manners, but I had a serious dad
who was very, very generous to me.
But he did not allow
me to be disrespectful.
Didn't have manners.
My mum was a very, very powerful lady.
She was a Pentecostal preacher,
and she brought me up very, very well.
And, unfortunate for me
I got sent to a borstal
when I was about 12, and
that was the best thing
that could have ever happened to me,
was being sent to that borstal.
Because it taught me
about manners, discipline
and focus, and how to look after yourself.
- Okay. Why did you get sent there?
- I was hanging around with
the wrong sort of like people.
And I think if I were
to stuck hanging around
with them people, I might
not have been here now today.
Or I might have been in and out of prison.
But I haven't got a criminal record,
but I was fascinated
with bad guys,
and people hanging around.
But my brother kept them away from me.
But my mum warned me,
if I don't behave myself
and pull my socks up or whatever,
I will be sent to a borstal.
But I got expelled from my primary school,
which I'm not very, very proud of it.
But when I got expelled she warned me,
and then she took me up to London,
to see some people, and I
got cast away to Sussex.
But a good thing about it,
the headteacher, Mr Irwin,
I'm in contact with him
and some of the pupils from
the school, and they're
helping me with my charity,
the Frank Bruno Foundation.
And the teacher Mr Irwin
was one of the most nicest,
strictest,
very, very knowledgeable guy of
structuring your life
around and advising you
and helping you, but he was a
no-nonsense sort of like guy.
But, the nice thing we're in contact now.
[Brian] Okay.
- And he's a good guy.
- So 12 years old, they
got you out of kind of
the inner city, out to Sussex?
- Yeah, Sussex, yeah.
[Brian] And new discipline,
new environment.
- Oh definitely.
- You didn't hang out with
the gangsters anymore?
- Oh no, I thought I was bad.
But when I went to Oakhill Boarding School
there were serious cups of tea,
that brought me down to Earth,
to make me just realise, pull my socks up,
that's when I decided
I wanted to be a boxer.
I trained, I went to work
in an old people's home,
with Mr and Mrs Champman,
they looked after me,
and I was cleaning floors,
cleaning the chicken
and things.
Cleaning his Aston Martin
out, and learning about life
and discipline, and it was
a good, good education.
We went camping.
We done all different things.
Walked the South Downs away,
and learnt about respect and
discipline and how to conduct
yourself, look after your shoes and socks,
and be in bed at a certain time.
We got three meals a day,
but you had to be on
point every single day,
because there were a lot of kids there
with a lot of attitude.
- Tough guys?
- Tough, when I mean "tough guys"
you know what I mean when
you walked to the toilet,
and they had the hump,
you know what I mean?
You'd get a punch in the
mouth or something like that.
Or, you know they were very,
some of them had chips on
their shoulder, but, you know?
- Did you take up boxing
to protect yourself?
- I took up boxing
because I didn't have no,
I didn't realise that I was
dyslexic, so I've realised that
I were to struggle trying to be a lawyer,
or be a judge or be an
accountant to make enough money.
So the only way I could do,
is to take up some sort of like sport.
Football I had two left feet.
Rugby, 12 men, you know what I mean?
When you cut down the
wages, 12 different checks
you've got to give out.
So I wanted to go into boxing.
I liked martial arts,
and I like, liked boxing.
- Okay. Martial arts is,
is boxing a martial art?
- Is boxing martial arts?
- Yeah I mean when you
said you like martial arts,
were you fascinated with
Bruce Lee and things?
- Yeah I was very, very
fascinated with Bruce Lee.
He used to be my hero, and I
used to watch a lot of films
and we used to at Clapham Junction,
we used to go to the cinema
and watch some kung fu movies
and come out late thinking that,
walking home about about two, three miles
away from the Clapham Junction
to Wandsworth and you'd
"Whoa" kicking and all
the moves that were there
you used to do.
Yeah, but you had your little
fantasies when you're young.
- And so in England though
probably boxing was the closest
thing you could find to a
martial art where you could be
taught and trained?
- Yeah I like boxing.
I went down to Earlsfield
and John Leverton and
Gary Leverton, and John
Leverton unfortunately
is not here now. But his son Gary, and
do know what I mean? Looked
after me very, very well.
and Bill and Philip Canes and Freddy Ritz.
Yeah, we had a good, good
innings you know what I mean?
Learning the trade.
- What do you think made you a good boxer?
And were you good from the start?
- I wouldn't go so far
as to say I was good.
I was very, very determined.
I was very, very fit.
I was very, very focused.
I was very, very on my game.
You know what I mean?
I wasn't no Sugar Ray Leonard or whatever,
but I was like in the army,
you know what I mean?
I would knuckle down.
I was very, very determined.
Some would say that I was muscle bound.
Some would say I was stiff or whatever.
But I knew what I wanted to do.
I wanted to make money.
I wanted to win the World Championship.
And I wanted to have a dream.
And I had a dream, and I
stuck to my guns you know?
- Okay. What did your mother,
the Pentecostal preacher
think of her son going into boxing?
- She wanted me to be a preacher,
or a lawyer or whatever.
But I didn't have it in my brains to work.
When you're dyslexic,
sometimes you drop it and
your fashion, your style's different.
I didn't understand what she meant.
But she didn't want me
to do boxing at all.
No mother wants to see
their son getting beat.
She came to a couple of fights,
and sometimes she was just
in the toilet with her Bible,
praying.
Rather than watch a fight.
She weren't into boxing at all.
But if that's what her son wanted to do,
she would pray for me and
go down the church and
Pastor Rumsey would
drop some prayers for me
that I don't get hurt or whatever.
But Mum didn't want me
to do boxing at all.
My dad did. But my dad died
when I was about 15, 14.
So he didn't really see
when I left school from 16,
tried a few jobs here and there,
metal punching work on a building site,
worked in Lumsdale sports shop
in Brixton.
- Okay.
- And work in
the bingo hall.
And I just went straight into boxing.
Just said the money what I'm
getting, can't really support
me too well after I've
paid my mum her bill,
get taxed and whatever.
I decided I went straight into boxing.
- Was it hard losing your father?
- Yeah it was hard losing my father,
'cause my father was my
hero. You know what I mean?
My father always wanted a son.
When his son came along,
he used to spoil me,
and give me a lot of different things.
But if I got out of hand, he
would drop some manners on me.
All them beatings that he gave me,
put me in good stead to tell
me about certain different
things through life or whatever.
Trusting people.
Looking after yourself and whatever.
But yeah I missed him.
I still miss him now.
- And you had three older sisters?
- Three older sisters yeah.
- Okay so you were the
son he was waiting for.
- Yeah.
- And boom you came
out and he spoiled you.
- I had one full sister,
and two half sisters.
But you know what I mean?
They're still my sisters.
- Okay. Now your first 21 fights you won.
- Yeah.
- What's that like and how
do you stay focused and
not let the ego take over?
What was that whole process
like in your late teens
early 20's?
- Sometimes I'm not a practical guy.
I don't really let things
excite me, or go to my head,
or whatever.
I train very, very hard.
Having 21 fights it was
nice having 21 fights,
but sometimes you've got
to go, and someone's got to
hit you back, and I did
have a couple of fights
where someone did hit me back.
And I had to dig deep to
see if I had the bottle,
the determination,
the will to go forward.
But yeah, it was nice
within them early fights.
When you go into the ring
it's a different temple
that you've got to go
into, which you don't know
how you're going to come out.
But, when you go in there,
it's not like football,
it's not like cricket,
it's not like rugby.
It's not like snooker or whatever.
You go in there to take the guy out,
or be taken out yourself.
- What are you like before
you go into the ring?
Do you get nervous? Do you get quiet?
Some guys throw up.
Some guys are calm.
What were you like before
you went into the ring?
- Just you know it's either him
or me. You know what I mean?
And go in there and train very, very hard.
Get yourself very, very fit,
and hit him before he hits you.
I learnt my trade the hard way,
because I didn't learn about survival.
Sometimes in life you
learn tricks of holding,
and if you get hurt, got down on one knee.
I didn't know.
All I did was get trained
to be very, very strong,
and very, very fit.
I went in there and just
went from round one,
come back and go in there,
learning how to pace
and get some rhythm and
bob and weave and whatever,
you learn them things later on.
But I was very, very raw.
Very, very keen.
Very, very eager not to listen
to certain different skills
through life, you know what I mean?
If you get hurt and you wobble
spit out your gum shield,
restart the fight, or go down on one knee,
or things like that you learn
through life after you do.
But I was, you know what I mean?
Like. What can I say?
If you get a girlfriend or
something like that, just
bam, bam, bam, bam just take
your time and pace yourself,
you last a little bit more longer.
I didn't have that
experience through later on,
through my life.
- Do you think that's why
people love watching you fight?
Because you just put it all on the line?
- I did put it all on the
line, but I shouldn't have
put it all on the line.
I should've learnt a few
more tricks here and there.
I got a little bit more
experience through the amateur.
I only had 21 amateur fights,
but I'm not making no excuses.
I had a good innings,
45 fights, lost five,
and I have no complaints whatsoever.
I had a, I made history.
I won the World Championship.
I only had it for five minutes,
but I done what I had to do.
So I have no complaints at all.
- You said for that World
Championship in '95,
you said sometimes you kind
of take your mind back there
and you can hear Nigel Ben
shouting your name in the stands.
- Yeah.
- and you can remember what was it like.
What was it like to win
that, you know at Wembley
with all that on the line?
And all those people there?
And Nigel in the crowd?
You know what do you
remember from that day?
- I remember everything, but
what's to remember about it?
You know I had three attempts.
Well four attempts.
First I lost to Bone Crusher Smith which
I had 21, 22 fights.
I was beating him up
until about eighth round,
unfortunately my head
got in the wrong place
and he struck me.
About the best thing that
could have happened to me
was him stopping me, to make
me go back to the drawing board
and learn my trade.
The nice sort of like way.
Then I went in against
- Is that a hard lesson to learn
that sometimes the losses losses
are the right thing at the right time?
- I think in life you've
got to lose before you win.
You can't win, win, win all the time.
And not knowing what it's like to lose,
you know what I mean?
You can't get money
without not having money,
you know what I mean?
So if you have no money, and
you get a little bit of money,
you've got to know what
it's like to you know,
let it last and pace yourself out.
So winning all the time in life,
nobody should win, win, win all the time.
Some days you've got to
have bad days and good days.
Everybody, whether it's the Royal family,
whether you're built with a
silver spoon in your mouth,
you've got to know what it's like to lose,
and to take a beating, and
know what is hard to know
about hardship.
- Right, and so that time he
stopped you was a good thing?
- Yeah, good, good thing.
- So from there you went
back to the drawing board?
- Went back to the drawing board.
Sometimes a lot of people when they lose,
they can't get their confidence up.
They get a little bit,
gun shy.
[Brian] Gun shy.
- And they can't get their
head, and their things
back together.
But the more I lost, the
more determined I got,
and the more I stuck to my guns.
- Right. And so then you went back,
fought for the title a few more times,
and then finally got it?
- Yeah definitely, later on
in my life I got it. But yeah,
I achieved my dream.
- That must have been an epic night there?
- Very, very unbelievable
night you know what I mean?
Because I was like a cat,
you have seven lives,
but that was my last,
you know what I mean?
Seventh.
Seventh sort of like life.
If I didn't get it then
I don't know where,
and it was good that
Frank Warren came onboard,
he was connected to Don King.
Don King had Oliver McCall,
Oliver McCall knocked out
Lennox Lewis, gave me the
opportunity of fighting
for the title.
So it was unbelievable.
An unbelievable night,
and the crowd was nice and
everything went down smooth.
- What's the boxing game like?
Because it's not only
you have to be the best,
but you also have to be
the best businessman,
and be in the right
place at the right time
to make those things happen.
Because you've seen people
that have been great boxers
and bad careers probably.
- Hm-mm.
- How did you learn how to do all that?
- I had a good teacher in
Terry Lawless, Mickey Duff,
Jarvis Astaire, Mike Barrett.
I've, not fell out, I
left them and learnt,
but I had a good accountant
in Fishers, Marks is a
guy called Milton Marks,
I had good lawyers,
and I had a good team
around me at the time.
- And you had a vision which was
you wanted to be the champion,
you wanted to make money,
this was going to be a career.
- Yeah definitely.
- Which is different?
- Yeah.
- 'Cause some guys start fighting,
because they like fighting.
- Hm-mm.
- And you always were a businessman.
- I don't know if I was
a businessman, but yeah.
Boxing is a business with blood.
But I had a good team,
I was a good listener,
and I had good people around me.
So I put, let them do their business,
and let me do my business.
- Hm-mm.
- Yeah it is a business with blood boxing.
And boxers are getting
a bit more smarter now
of looking after and promoting themselves,
you know what I mean?
Dropping it a different way,
it's a different era now,
boxers are talking
about millions of pounds
that they're getting, which
they are getting millions
with the pay-per-view and bits and pieces.
But, if you've got character,
if you've got charisma,
and you could put bums on
seats and get viewing figures,
like it was a BBC at the
first when I started,
then I ended up with Sky.
But yeah, you've got to
be a little bit different
then "You know what I mean
Harry?" (jolly laughing).
- I had Chris Eubank here and Nigel Ben
who I know is a friend of yours.
And they were talking about
their rivalry back in the day.
- Yeah.
- And they were talking
about how British boxing
kind of in the '80's and maybe early '90's
was a different animal.
It would be on free television,
everybody would be talking
about these fights.
The whole country would watch them.
Can you take me back and tell me,
what was boxing like back then
when you fought in the '80's and '90's?
- It was unbelievable
you know what I mean?
Sometimes if you go to
the press conferences
you had every single paper there.
It was on the television,
it was on ITV.
ITV competed with BBC,
and everybody knew you,
and everybody watched it,
and everybody, the Barry
McGuigan's, the Steve Cody's
the Nigel Ben, the Chris Eubank's,
Clinton MacKenzie,
you had Charlie Magri,
you had Maurice Hope.
You had so many different
fighters then that that
not saying boxing ain't boxing,
but in them days it was unbelievable.
Good fun. You know if you went
abroad somewhere to Europe,
if you got into Vegas you had,
so many reporters and the characters,
you know what I mean?
Peter Bat, The Frescos etc. etc.
Them days were very, very, very good,
very funny, 'cause all of them had lyrics,
and all of them were Colin
Hart's and, of the Sun,
and it was a beautiful time.
Time which I don't think could be beaten.
- What's it like being that famous?
- What's it like being that famous?
- What's it like being that famous?
- I don't class myself as being famous.
I'm no more famous than you are famous.
I'm on a level as what you are.
What the cameraman is.
What the voice man is.
What the photographer man is.
What the lady that we
met, what took me up here.
I'm just on a level.
I'm just a ducker and diver,
so I don't class myself as being famous
you know what I mean?
- But in the '80's and
'90's when you go to Vegas,
people know who you are.
- Yeah.
- And that must be a strange life to lead?
It goes to some people's heads.
- It can be a strange life to lead,
but I'm no more different
than anybody else,
you know what I mean?
Like, in a way, famous,
and so what? If I'm famous.
And so what, but I'm human, I'm normal,
I go to the toilet, if you kick me I "Ow".
If that dog were to bite me I would,
you know I would "Ugh".
You know what I mean? I would draw blood.
So I'm no more different,
whether you want to
class me as being famous,
but famous is only a word.
- This is your mother and your father,
and your upbringing probably
that kept you grounded?
- Everything, you've got to
be in life, in groundings
and focus and level, I mean it's,
I'm famous,
and?
- Right. And then what?
- Sorry what do you what mean "then what"?
- Right, you say you're famous and then?
- Yeah, what, famous.
- It doesn't go anywhere? Yeah
you just need to be yourself.
- Yeah.
- You had two epic bouts with Mike Tyson.
- Yeah.
- I was wondering if you could just
tell us what that was like?
'Cause in '89 you know, he was coming up,
and you were coming up too.
And I was just wondering what
do you remember about that time?
It's a long time ago.
- A long time ago. I
remember going to Vegas,
I remember going to
the Catskill Mountains,
when Cus D'Amato was alive,
I was 19 and Mike Tyson
was 15 and we spent
about two, three weeks together.
With Cus D'Amato at Gleason's Gym
before you was born, before anybody,
you know what I mean when the gyms were
a training camp they had up there.
And we spent a lot of time together.
- Wow.
- And after a while we
got to fight one another.
The fight was supposed to
be in London, got postponed
and got driven to Las Vegas,
but, trained very, very hard.
Tried to get myself to
knock him out and whatever,
wobbled him and unfortunately I got beat,
it was as simple as that.
- How did you get to
train with Cus D'Amato?
How did you know that
connection? Because that's.
- Mickey Duff, Jarvis Astaire,
I think the Jewish connection
with Gleason's and America,
and Cus D'Amato and Mickey
Duff knew a lot of people
Johnny Boss and they just got
together you know what I mean?
And youngsters trying
to, you know what I mean?
Get through the ranks in boxing.
Knew each other, sparred
against each other,
and we went around the
whole of America getting
the experience and just coming together.
- What's that like just 19
years old and going to America
to train?
- It was unbelievable
you know what I mean?
'Cause the best place
I went in America was
Huntington Beach, California.
The people were so cool,
so laid-back and whatever.
We went to Arizona, went
to Vegas, went to Chicago.
Went all over America and
it was just an eye-opener,
you know what I mean?
'Cause Americans drop it differently,
but when they party, they're
so relaxed and boasty
and cool and it was a
great, great experience.
For me being a youngster,
it was the most beautiful
time of my life.
Very, very, you know amazing
place America, amazing.
Different characters,
but the best place was
Huntington Beach.
- Cus D'Amato, what was he like?
You know I watched these
old videos on YouTube
of him training Mike Tyson.
- Hm-mm.
- The relationship they had
which was much as like a father
- Yeah.
- A father and son as I've ever seen.
- Yeah.
- What was it like being
there in the Catskills,
and what kind of boxer trainer was he?
- He was very, I don't know,
you must have a favourite
uncle that you listen to, or admire,
or sometimes you listen to your dad,
what advice he gives you.
But he was a guy, that
everything he talked about
had a lyric, it had a meaning
to whatever he talked about.
He was a guy that could
sit down and imagine,
and fantasise years in advance,
than what you could imagine
and look.
He was just like a, he as like a don,
and when you sit down and
whatever he said you listen
and took onboard because
whatever he said, made sense.
He was a, I don't know,
like a prophet,
like your great-grandfather,
like your great uncle,
but he was just a visionist.
A very knowledgeable, knowledgeable guy.
Some people you can sit down and chat to,
and know that they know
what they're talking about.
- Right.
- And think that they've been through,
like I've talked to you
earlier before on the camera
and you're on point, you meditate,
you keep yourself
together, you go to the gym
and you're on point.
And I admire that and I respect that.
But when you talk to people,
some people talk hibbery-gibbery,
and they don't make much sense.
But when someone like Cus D'Amato talks,
or similar like yourself talk,
you listen and not try and
nick little bits and pieces
out of there, take advice and
put that into your armoury
and he was that sort of like guy.
I could listen to him for about a year,
constantly just everyday,
sitting at the table,
listening or chucking something at him
and the advice that he gives you,
that you try to put that onboard
to whatever you need to do.
- Did he have a vision for you?
- Erm.
- What did he used to tell you?
- I couldn't remember
certain different things that
he used to tell me, but
you know what I mean?
The style what I had, he used to say
"Bend your legs, relax a little bit more"
"and you'll get more power".
But his concern was more Mike Tyson.
He's Mike Tyson's man.
But he was a very, very
generous and kind man
in anything that he talked about.
He didn't talk nonsense, he talked sense.
- Right and kind of a
softer spoken guy, right?
- Just very, very softly spoken guy.
But he's been through, I don't
know where he was brought up.
He must have been brought up in New York,
and he had a lot of seasoning.
He had a lot of experience.
He had a lot of knowledge.
He had a lot of commonsense.
But he could think years
above what we could predict,
and what we could see.
You know what I mean?
He was a very, very powerful guy.
He must have read, there must
have been books out there
before we even thought about it.
But he must have been in
for a lot of experience,
or his dad, or his grandparents,
or what he's been through
in life he used that as experience.
And he was a master.
- Yeah he was famous for
having that whole library
of old film on boxers.
- Yeah. Definitely.
- I know Mike Tyson used to
watch constantly old boxers.
- Yeah.
- Rocky Marciano, boxers
from 30, 40 years.
- Definitely.
- He liked their styles.
- Yeah.
- And if you watch the
way Cus would train Mike,
he would kind of let Mike spar
a couple of rounds in the ring,
and he would just come
over and he would just
quietly whisper a few things to him.
- Hm-mm.
- He never yelled at Mike.
Never say "You've got to do this".
Just okay.
- Yeah right.
- Or "Why don't we try this again?".
Like you said, someone you need to listen.
- Yeah.
- And I know Mike also
said he just gave him
lots of confidence.
- Hm-mm.
- You know?
- Sometimes people do give you confidence
if you're willing to listen.
Sometimes in life we're all human beings,
and we learn things through life,
and a lot of people have
got different lyrics,
different ways and
different supposed as to how
they go about things.
And sometimes if you can
go to a psychologist,
go to someone that's gone through life
and has gone, going through
life and learning skills
and proper skills and different
things to empower you,
you know what I mean?
You can only sit down like,
you go to the seminars
where a professor or a
psychologist will sit down there
and they'll have 2,500
people talking about life
and different things.
You sit down there, you come
out there and you're very,
very enlightening, and very empowered.
And people like Cus D'Amato
you just wish there was
more people like that around.
- Yeah. When you went to fight Mike.
- Hm-mm.
- Were you thinking back to
those days when you trained,
or was that 10 years earlier right?
- Yeah it would have
been 10 years earlier.
But he developed and he
got bigger, and different
things like that.
And the media, the way he
exploded, it was different.
But, I remembered him when
I was sparring with him
and, you know what I mean?
- You must have been bigger
than him when you sparred
with him at 19 perhaps?
- I was bigger than him,
but it's amazing how he got
bigger than me in certain different parts.
[Brian Laughs]
- But that's the way it goes, I ain't,
you know I went in there,
tried my best and no excuses,
I lost the fight.
- Did he try intimidating you?
Because that used to be his kind of MO,
the stare-downs and things like that.
- I wasn't really intimated by him at all.
When you've sparred with
someone when you're 19
and he's 15 or whatever, I
think the people around him
were trying to intimate
people, 'cause he had a lot of
hangers on and people
shouting out different things
and making funny phone
calls at night time,
so they use the intimidation.
But he toe-to-toe,
clip-for-clip, eye-to-eye,
I weren't intimidated by him at all.
- Yeah you don't seem
like a guy that would be
intimidated in the ring.
- If he was a crocodile, if he had a gun,
or a machine gun, and there
was a football crowd of 100
against one I think I may be intimidated,
I'm not going to lie to you.
But one-to-one, you know what I mean?
When you train to be a
boxer, you go in there,
Mike Tyson, Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck,
you go in there to try and, it's war.
And sometimes you come
out of war victoriously,
sometimes you don't come out
of a fight not victoriously.
But when you go in there,
it's business, boxing,
you know what I mean?
[Brian] Hm-mm.
- Any fighter will tell you that.
It's, it's clip-for-clip,
toe-to-toe, punch-to-punch,
and you don't take no
business, you know what I mean?
- Yeah. What was it like
seeing him seven years later?
How had you both changed as fighters?
- What in the second fight
you're talking about?
- Yeah the second fight.
- I got older, I had
a detached retina from
Oliver McCall from my first fight.
So it was messy, just.
- Which means thing are
blurry and double-vision?
- Very, double vision and.
- Did you know you had
the detached retina?
- From the first round
I thought Oliver McCall
I had a detached retina, but, I'm a boxer,
I'm a fighter, I had a
family and I had bread
to put on the table, so.
How I got through it, God only knows.
- The second Tyson fight?
- Yeah.
- Okay, all right and had
he changed as a fighter?
- I think he'd been in prison.
He had a lot of different
characters around him or whatever,
so I don't know had he
changed as a fighter.
He wasn't the same Mike Tyson that I knew,
you know what I mean? Or whatever.
But he still beat me,
so no excuses at all.
No, for me to sit down
there and disrespect him
and say he was the same Mike Tyson,
I think you may have to
ask him that question.
- Yeah I'll ask him at some point.
Have you seen the movie about him?
And you know, he's moved
on in his life and?
- Yeah.
- And the one man show and, I
mean when you see, you know,
the movie about him and
his life and the boxing,
I mean, what resonates with you?
- I haven't seen the movie.
[Brian] Okay.
- I've seen one or two
movies about him and,
the people and his one man show
and different things like
that, but, he's got a good wife
behind him now, you know he's got kids
and he's got a structure about his life.
But, people make mistakes,
we all make mistakes,
he's doing what he's got to do.
He's got himself together
and he's juggling and he's
hustling and he's, you know what I mean?
He's just trying to put food
on the table for his family.
- Yeah, staying busy, that's important.
- It's most important is
staying busy and focused and
keep yourself on a level, you know?
- Yeah. Lennox Lewis,
you fought him in '93.
- Hm-mm.
- What do you remember
about, you know, that bout?
Two, you know, hugely popular Britons.
- Hm-mm.
- Fighting you know for that title.
- Yeah.
- What do you remember?
- I remember a lot about
the fight, I was beating him
up until I got caught, and I got stopped,
and he won the fight.
- And how does that feel?
To be in that kind of a
transition point in the fight.
And do you remember every round?
- I remember every round yeah definitely,
I was in there, the referee,
Lennox Lewis and myself,
so yeah, yes I remember every
single round that I went
in there with, but
unfortunately I lost the fight.
Simple as that.
No excuse, no "Should have done this",
"Should have done that",
trained very, very hard.
Champneys, no we didn't
go to Champneys that far,
wish I would have done Champneys.
But, trained very, very
hard but unfortunately
I lost the fight.
- And when that happens,
how do you process a loss?
Are you one that's good about moving on,
back to the drawing board?
How does that happen?
- I had no choice but to move
on, you know what I mean?
Sometimes in life, we win, we lose,
we use our defeat
or sadness to make us get stronger,
and I had no choice but to
go back to the drawing board,
and train very, very hard
and try to get myself
back in the position that I wanted to
win the title that I wanted to get.
It was the WBC title, but
the fortunate thing for me,
I linked up with Darren and Frank Warren.
Frank Warren was partners with Don King.
Oliver McCall knocked out Lennox
Lewis in the second round,
and they gave me an
opportunity to have my last
chuck at the dice.
- Hm. Do you think, would
it be harder to retire
without having won that title?
- It would have been very, very hard.
Because sometimes when you
look at yourself in the mirror
you're happy and sometimes,
you know what I mean?
I've looked at myself, I
didn't achieve what I wanted
to achieve, and my
determination, my will, my focus,
my survival instinct,
wouldn't have been happy
with myself.
But I achieved my dream so
I'm very, very contented
and humble and grateful.
- Last fight with Tyson,
you injured your eye again,
re-injuring that eye.
- Yeah.
- Was it difficult to say
that's the time I'm going to
call it quits?
- I had to call it quits
'cause I had a detached retina,
and I couldn't really fool
no-one that but myself,
and having something flickering
in your eye for six, seven
months beforehand, and
everyday was a struggle.
- Blessing in disguise now that it
- Sorry?
- Was it a blessing in
disguise that you had a
firm reason you had to stop?
Because a lot of guys will come back,
and then they'll come back
for the wrong reasons.
- Yeah, I had a long
career from when I was 16
and I had a dream, and I had a vision,
and I was on a long road.
And I'd train very, very
hard, put a lot into it,
and you know what I mean?
I think it was time for me
to retire at that time.
Sometimes you go through
life and you get exhausted,
and not fed up, but you know what I mean?
There's only so much you can
get up and drive yourself.
And I wasn't a guy that cut any corners.
I was a very, very, in
the gym after fights
and when the trainers were
trying to kick me out the gym,
and I was there trying
working on my strength,
working on my skill, working
on my moves and whatever.
So it was the right time to retire.
- What's life like after fighting?
- My trainer George Francis
told me that the biggest
fight of your life is going
to be when you retire.
I didn't know what he was talking about,
where he was talking about,
but when you're having a
life, going around the world,
going to training camps, meeting this,
having press conferences, fans,
this that and who knows what,
then it comes down and
it's not a nice place.
- Right. Not a nice place to be retired?
- Not a nice place to be retired,
but sometimes if you retire
and get yourself into training,
get yourself into which,
I've retired and I'd done pantomime,
I've done different shows, so
I was grateful and appreciated
that I could duck and dive.
But it weren't the same
as when you were boxing.
- Because it kept you
in a constant state of
busyness, training, press,
I mean you're constantly
thinking about the next fight.
And all of a sudden, you retire,
and it's kind of like a black hole.
- Very, very black hole,
you know what I mean?
You come home. I was away
from the kids quite a lot.
You and your wife are
not listening to the same
radio station.
You have a break-up,
you go through all that.
It were messy, not very nice,
but, you know what I mean?
I'm still here now.
You go through a bad patch,
you go through a rocky day,
you've just got to take it on the chin.
I'm still alive, I'm still healthy,
I can still put food on the table.
And they were the bad days.
But, sometimes through your
life you go through good days.
Some days you go through a
bad day, you know what I mean?
But, I've got my kids,
I still speak to them,
and they're healthy.
My daughter's having a grandchild,
which I can't wait for Rachael
to get through with them.
And I'm happy, I'm in a happier
place that I've ever been
for a long time.
- Talk to us about bi-polar disorder.
- Yeah.
- Because I think most
people don't understand it.
And you know in 2003 when
the public kind of found out
that there was something going on with you
- Yeah.
- and mental illness and
you know in the woods
and these kinds of things.
Can you tell us what happened in '03 and
how did you learn about this yourself?
- Bi-polar I don't really
understand bi-polar too much.
People say bi-polar is a mood change and
whatever you go through
and, you know what I mean?
But I can't really understand bi-polar.
Some days you feel lethargic.
Sometimes you feel energetic.
Sometimes you spend a lot of
money on different things.
It reacts to everybody in a different way.
There's some people
who've got high bi-polar,
what are very, very dangerous people.
But bi-polar I think you might
have to talk to a professor,
or a doctor about bi-polar.
But, sometimes bi-polar
is not a nice thing.
- Okay.
So you just have to deal with
it on a day-by-day basis?
- I deal with it on a day-by-day basis,
the talk, what we had
before, that I go to the gym,
I try and look after myself,
I thank God that I've got
Champneys there.
I thank God that I've got
a 24 hours gym near me.
So I go to the gym, I
try and keep my brain,
I meditate a little bit, a lot.
I watch what I eat and I
try and look after myself
and keep focused you know?
- Okay, and that's how you can
kind of keep your mind on it?
- Yeah, definitely, you've
got to look after your tank,
look after your engine,
look after your body,
look after your mind,
you know what I mean?
I think you know what I mean,
keep yourself on the nice
structure, a pattern and
keep, you know what I mean?
Focused and recharging yourself,
meditated and keeping yourself
on the straight and level.
- Right. What happened in 2003?
And what did the public not
understand about what happened?
- I can't remember, there
were 2003 what, when I got?
- The Sun said you know,
that they took you away,
and took you to the hospital.
- Yeah.
- And found you walking through the woods.
- Yeah.
- Now what happened there?
- Walking through the woods.
I had a breakdown, a nervous breakdown.
And when I mean you may have
kids, you may have a wife,
but I wouldn't like you to
go through a break-up and not
seeing your kids, when I
couldn't see my kids for a while
and having a break-up, I
just, had a nervous breakdown.
- Okay, and what happens after that?
Did they check you into a hospital and?
- I got sectioned yeah.
- Sectioned.
- I got put into hospital
and I got sectioned.
- What's that like, when
someone tells you that you now
need to go to this place?
I mean is your first reaction
to say "I feel fine"?
And then, what is that
like to process that?
- It's not a nice place at all.
You go to, being sectioned,
you're being filled with all
different injections,
zombie-fied, monged-out, crazy
and doctors trying to say,
"You've got to take these tablets
for the rest of your life"
and saying you've got
this, you've got that.
But it weren't a nice place to be.
It was not a nice place, it was
the horriblest place or hell
to be quite honest.
But I got sectioned three times,
and it was one of the worst
times of my life.
- And it's bad because the other inmates?
Because of the doctors,
but mostly because of the medications.
You don't like the medications?
- I don't like the medication
at all, you know what I mean?
Some countries you hear of
dictate what people watch.
Dictate what people do or whatever.
But the system when they
take you through medication,
and a lot of people are out on medication,
are on medication, and they
can't get out of the hole
what they're in.
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[Narrator] Continue watching this
fascinating conversation for free,
by clicking on the link below,
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and I'll see you on the inside.
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- I'm just a guy from South London,
what had good parents, that
taught me manners, discipline
and focus.
