♪ [THEME MUSIC] ♪
>>> HELLO.
I'M SHERYL McCARTHY OF THE CITY 
UNIVERSITY OF NEW YORK.
WELCOME TO "ONE TO ONE."
AMERICAN WOMEN HAVE COME A LONG 
WAY SINCE THE 1960s WHEN MOST 
MIDDLE AND UPPER-LEVEL JOBS IN 
JOURNALISM, BUSINESS, ACADEMIA 
AND THE MILITARY WERE PRETTY 
MUCH CLOSED TO THEM.
NOW, IT SEEMS THAT EVERY DAY, 
WE'RE LEARNING ABOUT WOMEN WHO 
HAVE REACHED THE TOP ECHELONS OF
THE BUSINESS WORLD.
WHETHER IT'S SHERYL SANDBERG OF 
FACEBOOK, CARLY FIORINA, FORMER 
CEO OF HEWLETT-PACKARD, AND A 
FORMER REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL 
CANDIDATE, OR MANY OTHER WOMEN 
HEADING COMPANIES RANGING FROM 
SMALL TECH COMPANIES TO THOSE IN
THE FORTUNE 500.
HOW DID THEY GET THERE?
WHAT'S IT LIKE TRYING TO STAY 
THERE?
FOR HER NEW BOOK JOANN LUBLIN 
THE MANAGEMENT NEWS EDITOR "WALL
STREET JOURNAL" INTERVIEWED 52 
WOMEN CORPORATE LEADERS MANY OF 
THEM PRESENT OR FORMER CEOs AND 
THEIR STORIES OFFER LESSONS FOR 
OTHER WOMEN WHO HAVE DREAMED OF 
OR WHO MAY NOT EVEN HAVE 
CONSIDERED BECOMING CORPORATE 
LEADERS.
"EARNING IT: HARD-WON LESSONS 
FROM TRAILBLAZING WOMEN AT THE 
TOP OF THE BUSINESS WORLD" HAS 
JUST BEEN PUBLISHED BY THE 
HARPER BUSINESS IMPRINT OF 
HARPER COLLINS.
WELCOME.
NOW FIRST OF ALL, I HAVE TO ASK 
YOU, WHAT DOES THE MANAGEMENT 
EDITOR OF "WALL STREET JOURNAL" 
DO?
>> I'M THE NEWS EDITOR AND I 
BOTH COVER AND HELP COORDINATE 
OUR COVERAGE OF MANAGEMENT
ISSUES.
>> OKAY.
>> EVERYTHING RANGING FROM 
EXECUTIVE PAY TO SUCCESSION 
PLANNING, CORPORATE GOVERNANCE, 
DO A LOT OF REPORTING INVOLVING 
TAKEOVERS BECAUSE THERE'S SOME 
MANAGEMENT ISSUES INVOLVED WITH 
THAT. 
>> OKAY.
>> I DO A CAREER ADVICE COLUMN 
SEPARATE FROM THAT.
>> OKAY.
OKAY.
WHY DID YOU WRITE THIS BOOK?
>> I WROTE THIS BOOK FOR TWO 
REASONS.
ONE, BECAUSE I HAD BEEN WRITING 
A LOT ABOUT MANAGEMENT ISSUES 
FOR THE "JOURNAL" AND HAD MET 
AND WRITTEN ABOUT SEVERAL OF 
THESE WOMEN I ENDED UP WRITING 
ABOUT FOR THE BOOK, BUT MORE 
IMPORTANTLY I WANTED TO GIVE 
BACK TO OUR DAUGHTER WHO WAS 
ENTERING THE WORK FORCE AND I 
THOUGHT HAD A SOMEWHAT ROSY EYED
VIEW AS TO WHAT TO EXPECT.
BACK IN 2008 I WROTE A FIRST
PERSON ESSAY FOR A "WALL STREET
JOURNAL" BLOG CALLED "JOURNAL
WOMEN" CALLED "REMEMBER THE 
BARRIERS" WHICH I TALKED ABOUT 
SOME OF THE EXPERIENCES AS A 
JOURNALIST AT "WALL STREET 
JOURNAL" AND WAYS I HADN'T BEEN 
EXPECTED TO BE TREATED 
DIFFERENTLY BECAUSE I WAS A 
WOMEN. 
>> SO WHAT DO THE NUMBERS SHOW 
ABOUT THE MOVEMENT OF WOMEN INTO
THE UPPER LEVELS OF BUSINESS 
MANAGEMENT SINCE THE '60s?
WHAT DO THE NUMBERS SHOW?
>> WELL THE NUMBERS SHOW WOMEN 
IN LARGE NUMBERS ARE GETTING OUT
OF COLLEGE, IN FACT, I BELIEVE 
THERE ARE MORE UNDERGRADUATE 
DEGREES BEING GRANTED TO WOMEN 
THAN MEN, A NEAR MAJORITY OF THE
AMERICAN WORK FORCE BUT WHAT 
HAPPENS IS WHEN WE GET TO UPPER 
MANAGEMENT IN PARTICULAR THE CEO
SPOT, CORRESPONDENT OFFICE, THE 
NUMBERS ARE MUCH, MUCH SMALLER.
BUT ON THE POSITIVE SIDE, THE 
NUMBER OF WOMEN ENTERING 
SENIOR MANAGEMENT IS FINALLY
GETTING TO BE SIGNIFICANT.
>> SO WHEN DID THIS UPWARD 
MOVEMENT START?
I MEAN WHAT CAUSED IT TO START?
WAS IT THE '60s?
YOU MENTIONED IN THE BOOK -- THE
WOMEN'S MOVEMENT PLAYED A 
FACTOR.
YOU MENTIONED THE BIRTH CONTROL 
PILL. 
>> ABSOLUTELY. 
>> TITLE VII OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS
ACT OF 1964 AND THERE WAS
ANOTHER LAW, EQUAL EMPLOYMENT. 
>> EQUAL PAY LAW TOO. 
>> RIGHT. SORT OF
NUDGED MORE WOMEN UPWARD OR
INTO THE WORK FORCE. 
>> MORE INTO THE WORK FORCE AND 
STAY IN THE WORK FORCE AFTER 
HAVING CHILDREN. 
>> IF WE LOOK AT WOMEN FIRST 
MAKING IT INTO THE VERY TOP 
LEVELS OF CORPORATE MANAGEMENT, 
I DON'T KNOW WHO THE FIRST 
ONES -- DO YOU KNOW WHO THEY 
WERE, THE FIRST CEOs?
>> KATHERINE GRAHAM WAS THE VERY
FIRST FEMALE CEO TO GET INTO THE
FORTUNE 500.
>> AT "THE WASHINGTON POST." 
>> YEAH.
DUE TO THE DEATH OF HER HUSBAND 
WHICH HAS BEEN IN JOURNALISM A 
WAY MANY WOMEN HAD BECOME 
PUBLISHERS.
HUSBAND DIED AND THE WIDOWS TOOK
OVER RUNNING THE NEWSPAPER. 
>> RIGHT.
BUT YOU SAYS THE NUMBERS HAVE 
STALLED?
>> WELL, I THINK THE NUMBER OF 
WOMEN CEOs IS NOT AS GREAT AS 
MANY OF US HAD HOPED WE WOULD 
SEE BY NOW, BUT IT IS STARTING
TO PICK UP.
MORE THAN TWO DOZEN WOMEN OF CEO
FORTUNE 500 COMPANIES NOW, BUT 
WHERE I TAKE THE MOST HOPE FROM 
IS THE LEVEL RIGHT BELOW THAT.
WOMEN WHO ARE DIRECT REPORTS TO 
THE CEO, WHETHER IT'S MEN OR 
WOMEN, "WALL STREET JOURNAL" 
DOES A SPECIAL REPORT EVERY YEAR
CALLED "WOMEN IN THE WORK FORCE"
WHICH IS BASED ON A LARGE-SCALE 
SURVEY.
OUR LATEST REPORT WHICH CAME OUT
LAST SEPTEMBER FOUND ABOUT 19% 
OF THE MOST SENIOR EXECUTIVES 
ARE NOW FEMALE.
THAT WAS UP FROM 17% THE YEAR 
BEFORE.
SO NOW YOU'RE GETTING CLOSE TO 1
IN 5 SENIOR LEVEL JOBS BEING 
HELD BY WOMEN.
AGAIN, NOT A HUGE NUMBER JUST 
LIKE THE NUMBER OF CEOs BUT TO 
THE EXTENT THAT WOMEN ARE NOT 
ONLY THOSE JOBS BUT 
SERVING AS ROLE MODELS FOR WOMEN
AT MID-MANAGEMENT, THAT TO ME IS
A REALLY CRITICAL DEVELOPMENT. 
>> AND IT'S INTERESTING TO ME 
THAT WHILE SOME WOMEN YOU
WROTE ABOUT IN YOUR BOOK HAVE 
PURSUED TYPICAL LIBERAL ARTS 
DEGREES, MUSIC, THEATER, BUT THE
MAJORS THAT I SEEM TO SEE OVER 
AND OVER AGAIN WERE COMPUTER 
SCIENCE, ENGINEERING, CHEMISTRY.
SO -- 
>> AND MATH. 
>> AND MATH.
SO THAT'S WHAT IT SUGGESTS WOMEN
IN THE S.T.E.M. AREAS, IN THOSE 
DISCIPLINES, THAT THOSE ARE THE 
COMPANIES WHERE WOMEN ARE 
MEETING A LOT OF SUCCESS OR MORE
SUCCESS?
>> ONE WOULD HOPE.
UNFORTUNATELY, THE LABOR 
DEPARTMENT STATISTICS SUGGEST 
THAT THE ENROLLMENT IN S.T.E.M. 
FOR WOMEN HAS BEEN DROPPING, 
IT'S ON THE DECLINE IN RECENT 
YEARS. 
>> ANY IDEA WHY THAT IS?
>> NOT REAL CLEAR. AGAIN,
STUDIES DONE OF WOMEN WHO 
ENTER S.T.E.M. FIELDS FIND A 
FAIRLY HIGH DROPOUT RATE AT 
MID-CAREER.
IS THAT BECAUSE OF PULL OR PUSH?
DO THEY WANT TO GO DO SOMETHING 
ELSE OR ARE THEY FRUSTRATED AT
WHERE THEIR CHANCES ARE FOR
ADVANCEMENT IN THEIR PARTICULAR 
FIELD OR THEIR PARTICULAR 
INDUSTRY.
I'M NOT SURE ANYONE HAS THE 
EXACT ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION. 
>> OKAY.
LET'S LOOK AT SOME OF THE 
THEMES THAT BOOK EXPLORES.
THE WHOLE ISSUE OF GETTING IN 
THE DOOR.
HOW YOU GET ON YOUR WAY.
WHAT WERE SOME OF THE LESSONS 
FROM YOUR SUBJECTS?
>> WELL, I THINK AT THE END OF 
THE DAY, A LOT OF THESE WOMEN 
FOUND IT DIFFICULT TO BREAK IN 
TO THEIR FIRST 
PROFESSIONAL-LEVEL JOB.
EITHER BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T HAVE 
A TECHNICAL OR ENGINEERING 
BACKGROUND AND WERE TRYING TO 
GET INTO THAT AREA OR HAD NO 
BUSINESS TRAINING, THEY WERE
LIBERAL ARTS MAJORS,
OR THEY WERE
JUST RUNNING UP AGAINST 
OLD-FASHIONED GENDER BIAS.
AND WHAT WAS AMAZING ABOUT A 
NUMBER OF THESE WOMEN THAT I 
TALKED TO IS THEY DIDN'T TAKE 
THEIR SETBACKS AS BEING THE BE 
ALL, END ALL OF THEIR LIVES AND 
THAT WAS THE UNDERLYING THEME OF
THE BOOK.
HOW DID THESE WOMEN DEAL WITH 
SETBACKS BOTH PERSONAL AND 
PROFESSIONAL AND BECOME BETTER 
LEADERS BECAUSE OF THAT.
AND IN TERMS OF GETTING STARTED 
IT MEANT IN SOME CASES BEING 
HUGELY PERSISTENT AND NOT TAKING
NO FOR AN ANSWER AND FINDING OUT
WAYS TO GET AROUND THE OBSTACLE 
OR GET SOMEBODY TO OPEN THE DOOR
FOR THEM.
>> WHICH TAKES US TO THE 
BLOOM WHERE YOU'RE PLANTED.
>> THAT'S A STORY INVOLVING 
ANDREA JUNG, WHO GOES ON TO
BECOME THE FIRST WOMEN CEO OF
AVON PRODUCTS, A COMPANY
WHICH THROUGHOUT ITS HISTORY HAS
OVERWHELMINGLY SERVED WOMEN AND 
OVERWHELMINGLY HAD WOMEN AS 
THEIR INDEPENDENT SALES REPS.
SHE STARTS OUT HER CAREER IN HER
20s WORKING RIGHT HERE IN NEW 
YORK FOR BLOOMINGDALE'S AT THE 
FLABSHIP STORE.
SHE THINKS SHE'S REALLY GOD'S 
GIFT TO HUMANITY.
SHE'S BEEN VERY SUCCESSFUL AS A 
BUYER AND HAS WORKED VERY WELL 
IN THE SWIMSUIT DEPARTMENT AND 
RAISES HER HAND FOR A PROMOTION 
AND SHE GETS TURNED DOWN.
SHE'S IN HER MID 20s AND SHE 
CAN'T FIGURE OUT WHY THIS HAS 
HAPPENED.
AT THAT POINT MARVIN TRAUB WHO'S
THIS LARGER THAN
LIFE CHARACTER IN THE RETAIL 
WORLD AND HEAD OF BLOOMINGDALE'S
SUMMONS HER TO HIS OFFICE AT THE
TOP FLOOR OF BLOOMINGDALE'S AND 
TELLS HER HE HAS A DIFFERENT 
IDEA IN MIND FOR HER.
AGAIN, HER VERY FIRST 
SUPERVISORY LEVEL POSITION.
HE WANTS HER TO TAKE OVER THE 
LINGERIE DEPARTMENT.
NOW, THIS IS THE '80s AND THE 
LINGERIE DEPARTMENT IS THE 
BACKWATER OF BLOOMINGDALE'S AS 
SYMBOLIZED BY THE FACT THAT IT'S
HOUSED IN THE SUBBASEMENT RIGHT 
NEXT TO THE SUBWAY STATION WHERE
YOU GET ALL DAY LONG TO LISTEN 
TO THE SUBWAY CARS.
IT'S BEEN RUN BY A MAN FOREVER, 
ALL THE PEOPLE THAT WORK THERE 
ARE MEN WHO ARE FAR OLDER THAN 
ANDREA WHO'S IN HER 20s. 
>> AND ALL THE LINGERIE IS BEIGE
BASICALLY. 
>> BEIGE OR WHITE, RIGHT.
AND SHE WISELY ASKS HIM FOR SOME
TIME TO THINK ABOUT THIS AND 
DECIDES THAT, YOU KNOW, MAYBE 
DOING SOMETHING TOTALLY OUTSIDE 
OF HER REALM OF KNOWLEDGE WHERE 
SHE COULD LEARN SOMETHING AS 
WELL AS PROVE THAT SHE HAS THE 
RIGHT STUFF, MIGHT NOT BE SUCH A
BAD IDEA.
AND SO SHE ACCEPTS THE JOB AND 
ON HER FIRST DAY SHE'S GOING 
DOWN, DOWN, DOWN, HEADED TOWARDS
THE SUBBASEMENT SHE REMEMBERS A 
POSTER SHE HAD SEEN IN THE HUMAN
RESOURCE OFFICE AND IT WAS A 
PICTURE OF A POT WITH A 
FLOWERING PLANT COMING OUT OF IT
AND THE HEADLINE WAS "BLOOM 
WHERE YOU ARE PLANTED" AND SO 
SHE DOES.
SHE INTRODUCES THIS RADICAL IDEA
OF SELLING LINGERIE IN COLORS.
OH MY GOSH, PERISH THE 
THOUGHT, RATHER THAN BEIGE 
AND WHITE. AND OF COURSE
IT'S A HUGE SUCCESS. 
>> SHE WOUND UP LEAVING 
BLOOMINGDALE'S A FEW YEARS LATER
TO GET A PRETTY HIGH LEVEL 
POSITION, MIDDLE MANAGEMENT AT 
AVON, WHERE ONCE AGAIN SHE TAKES
ON SOME ROLES THAT INVOLVES SORT
OF STICKING OUT AND BLOOMING NOT
JUST WHERE SHE'S PLANTED BUT 
DOING SOMETHING CHALLENGING.
>> A LOT OF WOMEN TRYING TO WORK
THEIR WAY UP DEALT WITH A LOT OF
HOSTILITIES, CERTAINLY DEALT 
WITH HOSTILITIES FROM MALE 
COLLEAGUES.
TALK ABOUT THAT.
>> WELL, I THINK FRANKLY, IT IS 
SOMETHING THAT HASN'T 
DISAPPEARED EVEN TODAY.
IT JUST FRANKLY TAKES ON MORE 
SUBTLE FORMS.
I WAS DOING A PRESENTATION ABOUT
THE BOOK TO SOME OF MY 
COLLEAGUES AT DOW JONES AND ONE 
YOUNG WOMAN, A MILLENNIAL RAISED
HER HAND AND SAID WHAT WOULD YOU
SAY IF YOUR EDITOR SAID I WANT 
YOU TO USE ALL YOUR FEMININE 
WILES TO GET THAT SOURCE TO 
COOPERATE.
FIRST OF ALL THERE WAS A GASP IN
THE AUDIENCE AND I SAID WHEN DID
THAT QUESTION GET RAISED, 10 
YEARS AGO, 15 YEARS AGO.
SHE SAID NO, LAST WEEK.
DEALING THE HOSTILITY OR LESS 
THAN TOLERANT MALE COLLEAGUES, 
WHETHER IT'S A BOSS OR A
SUBORDINANCE IS SOMETHING A 
NUMBER OF THESE WOMEN DEALT 
WITH.
AT THE END OF THE DAY THEY WERE 
ABLE TO BE SUCCESSFUL, 
PARTICULARLY AS MANAGERS OF MALE
SUBORDINATES, BY ESSENTIALLY 
BEING EP PATHETIC AND 
ESSENTIALLY TRYING TO MAKE IT 
CLEAR THAT I AM IN THIS TO MAKE 
YOU SUCCESSFUL, TO THE EXTENT 
YOU SUCCEED, I WILL BE 
SUCCESSFUL.
>> I KNOW YOU TALKED ABOUT ONE 
WOMAN DEALING WITH A MID-LEVEL 
MANAGER WHO WAS HOSTILE TOWARDS 
HER FROM THE BEGINNING AND SHE 
DECIDED AND HE WAS ALMOST 
APOPLECTIC. SHE DECIDED SHE WAS 
GOING TO HELP HIM REACH THE NEXT
LEVEL AND HIS ATTITUDE ABOUT
HER CHANGED.
>> RADICALLY. 
>> AND THAT WAS CHALLIS LOWE
THE ONLY AFRICAN AMERICAN WOMAN
I INTERVIEWED FOR IN THE BOOK.
ONE OF THE PEOPLE SHE WAS THEN 
SUPERVISING WAS THE GUY WHO 
TRAINED HER TO BE QUALIFIED FOR 
THAT ROLE.
AND WHO HAD WORKED FOR THE BANK 
FOR 20 YEARS AND THOUGHT HE
DESERVED THAT PROMOTION.
NOT ONLY HAD HE EVER WORKED FOR 
A WOMAN BEFORE, HE NEVER WORKED 
FOR A BLACK WOMAN AND RESENTED 
THE FACT THAT SHE GOT THE 
PROMOTION THAT HE WANTED.
SHE SAID I WILL WORK WITH YOU TO
MAKE SURE THAT YOU GET TO BE AN 
OFFICER, BUT, YOU KNOW, IS THAT 
SOMETHING YOU REALLY WANT TO DO?
AND HIS ATTITUDE CHANGED.
IT WAS CLEAR TO HER HE DIDN'T 
HAVE THE EXPERIENCE THAT THEY 
NEEDED AND WANTED TO SEE BECAUSE
HE HAD BEEN A TRAINING ROLE, 
HADN'T BEEN IN ANY KIND OF 
SUPERVISORY ROLE.
WITHIN A YEAR HE WAS MADE AN 
OFFICER. 
>> WE'RE GOING TO TAKE A SHORT 
BREAK AND WE'LL BE BACK WITH 
MORE WITH JOANN LUBLIN, AUTHOR 
OF "EARNING IT: HARD-WON LESSONS
FROM TRAILBLAZING WOMEN AT THE 
TOP OF THE BUSINESS WORLD."
AFTER THIS MESSAGE.
>>> WELCOME BACK TO "ONE TO 
ONE."
I'M SHERYL McCARTHY.
OF THE CITY UNIVERSITY OF NEW 
YORK.
I'M TALKING WITH JOANN LUBLIN, 
AUTHOR OF "EARNING IT: HARD-WON 
LESSONS FROM TRAILBLAZING WOMEN 
AT THE TOP OF THE BUSINESS 
WORLD."
IT'S JUST BEEN PUBLISHED BY THE 
HARPER BUSINESS IMPRINT OF 
HARPER COLLINS.
IF A WOMAN WANTS TO MAKE IT TO 
THE TOP OF THE CORPORATE ENTITY,
DOES SHE HAVE TO BECOME ONE OF 
THE BOYS?
>> THAT'S A REAL GOOD QUESTION.
I THINK AT ONE POINT IN OUR 
HISTORY AS A COUNTRY, IT 
PROBABLY DIDN'T HURT TO BE, 
QUOTE, ONE OF THE BOYS.
BUT I THINK IF ANYTHING WHAT 
BECAME CLEAR FROM TALKING TO 
MANY OF THESE WOMEN AT THE END 
OF THE DAY YOU HAVE TO BE TRUE 
TO YOUR AUTHENTIC SELF AND THAT 
MEANS BEING WHOEVER IT IS THAT 
YOU ARE.
AND FOR MANY OF THEM IT MEANT 
BEING A WOMAN IN ALL RESPECTS 
AND IN SOME CASES THAT MEANT YOU
DIDN'T ACT LIKE THE GUYS.
THERE WERE SOME WOMEN WHO FELT 
THAT THAT WAS THE ONLY WAY, 
HOWEVER, THEY COULD BE ACCEPTED.
THEY DROVE A FAST CAR, DRANK A 
LOT, SWORE A LOT, AND -- 
>> TALKED SPORTS. 
>> IT DID MAKE A DIFFERENCE, AT 
LEAST AT CRACKING THE ICE, BUT 
IN TERMS OF BEING LEADERS, WOMEN
HAVE CERTAIN STRENGTHS THAT ARE 
MORE COMMON THAN WE SEE IN MEN 
AND IT'S GREAT TO TAKE ADVANTAGE
OF THOSE STRENGTHS.
ONE OF THEM IS EMPATHY.
THERE ARE MANY, MANY MALE 
EMPATHETIC LEADERS BUT I THINK 
WOMEN CAN BE EXTREMELY 
EM PATHETIC BUT AT THE SAME TIME
YOU HAVE TO BE DECISIVE. 
>> RIGHT.
AS WE'VE LEARNED FROM RECENTLY 
FROM FOX NEWS BUT ALSO FROM A 
LOT OF OTHER PLACES, SEXUAL 
HARASSMENT AND SEXUAL 
STEREOTYPING IS STILL VERY MUCH 
ALIVE.
HOW DID THE WOMEN THAT YOU 
TALKED TO DEAL WITH THAT?
>> SOME DEALT WITH IT PRETTY 
WELL AND OTHERS WISHED THEY 
DEALT WITH IT DIFFERENTLY.
IT DEPENDED ON WHERE THEY WERE 
IN THEIR CAREERS.
WHETHER THERE WERE RESOURCES 
THEY COULD TURN TO OR OTHER 
WOMEN THEY COULD TALK TO.
WHAT AGAIN I FOUND VERY 
IMPRESSIVE BY A NUMBER OF THESE 
WOMEN WAS THE WILLINGNESS AFTER 
THEY HAD EARNED IT TO RETURN IT 
AND SO WHEN THEY GOT INTO 
POSITIONS OF POWER AND EITHER 
WERE MADE AWARE OF SEXUAL 
HARASSMENT OR THEMSELVES BECAME 
EXPOSED TO SEXUAL HARASSMENT 
SOME WOULD BE IN A POSITION TO 
DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.
AND SOME CASES THAT MEANT, AN 
EXAMPLE, FOR INSTANCE, PENNY 
HERSCHER WHO WAS AT THAT POINT
THE CEO OF A START-UP, A WOMAN
IN HER 20s WHO WORKED FOR HER
WAS BEING PUSHED BY A CORPORATE
CLIENT TO DATE HIM AND SHE 
DIDN'T WANT TO DO IT.
BUT SHE WAS AFRAID TO SAY NO FOR
FEAR OF COSTING THIS CLIENT TO A
START-UP THAT NEEDED EVERY 
CORPORATE CUSTOMER THAT IT COULD
GET. 
>> SO WHAT DID SHE DO?
>> SHE HAD INITIALLY GONE TO
HER BOSS AND THEN
THE YOUNG WOMAN CAME TO PENNY
THE CEO AND PENNY HERSELF 
EARLIER IN HER CAREER HAD BEEN 
SEXUALLY HARASSED AND WHEN 
COMPLAINED ABOUT IT TO HER BOSS 
WAS TOLD TO ESSENTIALLY IGNORED 
IT. SHE LATER, WITH HER BOSS,
WENT THROUGH MANDATED
TRAINING AND DISCOVERED THAT 
WASN'T HOW THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO
DEAL WITH IT.
FAST FORWARD TO 2015 WHEN THIS 
SITUATION AROSE SHE ASKED THE 
YOUNG WOMAN IF SHE WAS 
ROMANTICALLY INVOLVED PERSONALLY
WITH A RELATIONSHIP OUTSIDE OF 
THIS ONE THAT THE CORPORATE 
CLIENT WAS TRYING TO PROMOTE AND
SHE SAID YES.
AND SHE SAID, I SUGGEST YOU 
SIMPLY SAY TO HIM I AM NOT 
INTERESTED, I AM ROMANTICALLY 
INVOLVED AND IF THAT DOESN'T GET
HIM TO STOP BOTHERING YOU, I 
WILL INTERVENE AND SHE WAS 
WILLING TO SACRIFICE THE 
BUSINESS RELATIONSHIP.
THAT'S CRITICAL. 
>> YEAH.
ON EQUAL PAY AND UNEQUAL 
ADVANCEMENT, I THINK MOST WOMEN 
HAVE ENCOUNTERED THIS, ONE THING
I NOTICED IN MY CAREER AS A 
JOURNALIST IS THAT WOMEN WILL 
COMPLAIN ABOUT BEING OVERLOOKED 
FOR A JOB OR WILL COMPLAIN ABOUT
BEING WHAT THEY FEEL IS 
UNDERPAID, BUT WHEN YOU ASK 
THEM, WELL DID YOU ASK FOR THE 
JOB, DID YOU ASK FOR THE RAISE, 
THEY DIDN'T.
AND, YOU KNOW, I MEAN THE 
MESSAGE TO ME IS, YOU HAVE TO 
ASK FOR WHAT YOU WANT.
IF YOU DON'T GET IT THEN YOU 
HAVE TO COME WITH A DIFFERENT 
STRATEGY BUT YOU HAVE TO ASK FOR
IT.
>> ABSOLUTELY.
AND THAT'S A VERY POWERFUL THEME
TO THE CHAPTER I WROTE ABOUT, 
THE PAY GAP, THE GENDER PAY GAP,
AND ESSENTIALLY THE MESSAGE 
THERE IS, IF YOU DON'T ASK, YOU 
DON'T GET.
AND TIME AND TIME AGAIN, THESE 
WOMEN NOTICED WHEN THEY WERE 
TRYING TO PROMOTE WOMEN, THAT 
WOMEN DIDN'T FEEL THAT THEY WERE
QUALIFIED FOR A POSITION, EVEN 
WHEN THEY WERE ASKING MALE 
SUBORDINATES WHO ARE EQUALLY 
UNQUALIFIED WHETHER THEY 
DESERVED A PROMOTION OR WOMEN 
DID NOT NEGOTIATE VERY WELL WHEN
IT CAME TO PAY RAISES, NONE OF 
THESE WOMEN FIGURED OUT EARLY ON
IF YOU DON'T ASK, YOU DON'T GET.
AND YOU'VE GOT TO NOT JUST ASK, 
BUT YOU HAVE TO ASK FROM A 
POSITION OF KNOWLEDGE.
BECAUSE KNOWLEDGE IS POWER.
IF YOU KNOW HOW VALUED YOU ARE 
BY A WORK PLACE, PARTICULARLY 
WHEN IT COMES TO A PROMOTION, 
THEN YOU'VE GOT SOME LEVERAGE, I
QUOTED ONE WOMAN AS SAYING. 
>> YOU ALSO HAVE TO KEEP ASKING 
SOMETIMES. 
>> ABSOLUTELY. 
>> WEAR THEM DOWN.
WORK/LIFE BALANCE HAS GOT AN LOT
OF PRESS OVER THE YEARS, ALMOST 
TO THE EXTENT THAT I'M KIND OF 
TIRED OF HEARING ABOUT IT.
BUT THE ANSWER SEEMS TO BE, YOU 
KNOW, WOMEN HOW CAN THEY BALANCE
FAMILY WITH WORK.
I MEAN THE ANSWER JUST SORT OF 
SEEMS TO BE, THAT YOU HAVE TO 
WORK IT OUT THE BEST WAY YOU 
CAN. 
>> ABSOLUTELY.
>> YOU KNOW, IT HELPS TO HAVE A 
SUPPORTIVE HUSBAND, IT HELPS TO 
HAVE A SUPPORTIVE BOSS, IT HELPS
TO HAVE, YOU KNOW -- 
>> A WELL-PAID NANNY. 
>> ABSOLUTELY.
ABSOLUTELY.
SOMETIMES YOUR COMMUTE 
RELATIONSHIP THE TWO OF YOU ARE 
COMMUTING BETWEEN DIFFERENT 
CITIES BUT YOU HAVE TO FIGURE IT
OUT THE BEST WAY YOU CAN, WHAT 
YOUR PRIORITIES ARE AND FIGURE 
IT OUT THAT WAY. 
>> AND RECOGNIZE THERE IS NO 
SUCH THING AS BALANCE.
THAT'S WHY THE TITLE OF THAT 
CHAPTER IS MANAGER MOMS 
ARE NOT ACROBATS. IF THEY
WERE THEN THEY WOULD BE ABLE
TO BALANCE. 
>> WHO ARE SOME OF THE WOMEN -- 
YOU INTERVIEWED A LOT OF WOMEN.
WHO WERE SOME THAT MOST 
IMPRESSED YOU OR YOU ADMIRED
THE MOST?
>> TO THIS VERY POINT I THINK 
MINDY GROSSMAN IMPRESSED
ME QUITE A BIT.
SHE HAS BEEN THE CEO OF HSN, 
HOME SHOPPING NETWORK, ABOUT TO 
BECOME THE CEO OF WEIGHT 
WATCHERS AND AT WHAT POINT IN 
HER CAREER SHE HAS A YOUNG 
CHILD, HUSBAND WITH A
PRETTY DEMANDING CAREER
HERE IN NEW YORK, IN THE FASHION
BUSINESS AND OFFERED A VERY 
LARGE JOB AT NIKE FOR WHICH SHE 
OUGHT TO RELOCATE.
SHE DECIDES SHE'S GOING TO 
BECOME A COMMUTER MOM, BUT 
BEFORE SHE ACCEPTS THIS 
POSITION, RUNNING ALL THE 
WOMEN'S APPAREL BUSINESS, A HUGE
RESPONSIBILITY, SHE HAS A VERY 
IMPORTANT CONVERSATION NOT JUST 
WITH HER HUSBAND, BUT WITH THEIR
NANNY BECAUSE SHE WANTS TO MAKE 
SURE THAT THIS IS GOING TO WORK 
TO BE A COMMUTER PARENT.
AND FRANKLY, I DON'T THINK SHE 
WOULD HAVE TAKEN THE JOB IF THE 
NANNY WASN'T WILLING ON OCCASION
TO STAY OVERNIGHT IF HER HUSBAND
HAD TO GO OUT OF TOWN OR COME 
EARLY IN THE MORNING BEFORE HE 
HAD TO GO OFF TO AN EARLY 
MEETING.
SHE ENDS UP KEEPING THE SAME 
NANNY UNTIL HER DAUGHTER GOES 
OFF TO COLLEGE. 
>> WOW.
WOW.
WHAT DID YOU LEARN THAT 
SURPRISED YOU?
>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I 
LEARNED THAT SURPRISED ME WAS 
THE FACT THAT AT LEAST A HALF 
DOZEN OF THESE WOMEN, AGAIN TO 
THE ISSUE OF WORK/LIFE BALANCE, 
HAD HUSBANDS WHO CHOSE TO BE 
STAY-AT-HOME DADS AND I GUESS --
I WAS SURPRISED MORE THAN HALF 
OF WORKING MOMS BUT WITHIN THAT 
GROUP THERE WERE A NUMBER WHOSE 
HUSBANDS VOLUNTEERED TO DO THIS.
IT WASN'T THE WIFE SAYING, YOU 
KNOW, I'VE GOT THE BETTER PAYING
JOB OR THE BETTER PROSPECT, IT 
WAS THE MAN RECOGNIZING THIS AND
DECIDING TO DO THAT.
IN THE CASE OF ONE WOMAN WHERE 
SHE GOT A PROMOTION JUST BEFORE 
THE BIRTH OF THEIR SECOND CHILD,
HER HUSBAND, WHILE SHE'S ON
MATERNITY LEAVE SAYS I WANT TO 
STAY HOME AND RAISE OUR KIDS.
LATER SHE WAS ON PANEL WITH ME 
AFTER THE BOOK CAME OUT AND I 
SAID LOOKING BACK, SHE'S NOW 
BEEN A PUBLIC COMPANY CEO TWICE 
AND RUNNING ULTA AT THE MOMENT, 
WHAT WOULD YOU THINK TO HAVE 
HAPPEN DIFFERENTLY IN TERMS OF 
YOUR PROFESSIONAL CAREER IF HE 
HAD NOT CHOSEN TO STAY HOME WHEN
HE DID.
I THOUGHT SHE WOULD HAVE SAID I 
WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN A PUBLIC CEO 
ONCE, MUCH LESS TWICE, SHE SAID 
I WOULD HAVE STOPPED AFTER TWO 
KIDS.
>> OKAY.
THE MAIN LESSON OF THE BOOK, 
SEEMS TO BE, DON'T GIVE UP WHEN 
THINGS GET TOUGH. 
>> NOT ONLY DON'T GIVE UP WHEN 
THINGS GET TOUGH, BUT ANTICIPATE
THE FACT THAT -- 
>> THINGS ARE GOING TO BE TOUGH.
>> THINGS ARE GOING TO GET 
TOUGH.
THAT'S WHAT LIFE IS LIKE FOR MEN
AND WOMEN ALIKE AND THE POINT 
HERE IS TO DEVELOP RESILIENCE 
EARLY IN YOUR CAREER BY TAKING 
MISSION IMPOSSIBLE OR CALCULATED
RISKS IN TERMS OF THE 
ASSIGNMENTS THAT YOU PURSUE.
PLACES WHERE YOU CAN SORT OF 
STRETCH YOUR WINGS AND FIGURES 
OUT HOW YOU DEAL WITH PERHAPS 
SMALL-SCALE SETBACKS AND THAT 
THEN INOCULATES AND PREPARES YOU
FOR WHEN THE BIGGER BOMBS DROP 
IN YOUR LIFE. 
>> MEN DON'T SEEM TO HAVE A 
PROBLEM WITH TAKING JOBS THAT 
THEY DON'T REALLY FEEL THEY'RE 
PREPARED FOR.
THEY SAY, I CAN DO THAT. 
>> THEY DO BECAUSE A LOT OF THEM
HAVE GREATER SELF-CONFIDENCE 
PERHAPS THAN WOMEN, BUT A LOT OF
WOMEN ARE LEARNING HOW TO 
DEVELOP SELF-CONFIDENCE AND 
HOPEFULLY MORE WILL FROM READING
THE BOOK. 
>> YOU TALK A LOT ABOUT YOUR OWN
CAREER PATH IN YOUR BOOK, BUT 
WERE THERE THINGS YOU WISHED YOU
HAD KNOWN WHEN YOU WERE WORKING 
YOUR WAY UP AS A JOURNALIST THAT
YOU NOW KNOW?
>> WELL, ONE OF THE THINGS I 
WISHED I HAD KNOWN WAS THE 
IMPORTANCE OF TAKING SOME TIME 
TO MAKE DECISIONS AND NOT 
ANSWERING IN THE MOMENT, SO WHEN
I WAS IN MY LATE 20s I WAS 
OFFERED THE OPPORTUNITY TO 
BECOME A BUREAU CHIEF AT "WALL 
STREET JOURNAL" AT WHICH POINT I
HAD NOT HAD ANY CHILDREN, I WAS 
MARRIED, WE WERE THINKING ABOUT 
HAVING A CHILD, THERE WAS NO 
ROLE MODELS, NO WOMAN HAD
BEEN A BUREAU CHIEF AT THE "WALL
STREET JOURNAL" AND MY HUSBAND 
WAS COMMITTED TO HIS CAREER AT 
"BUSINESSWEEK" WHEN THIS WAS 
RAISED AS A POSSIBILITY MY 
KNEE-JERK REACTION WAS SOME DAY 
YES, NOT NOW.
RATHER THAN SAYING CAN I HAVE A 
DAY OR TWO TO THINK ABOUT THIS 
AND COME BACK TO YOU TO CONSIDER
WHAT ARE THE UPSIDES AND 
DOWNSIDES, WAYS WHERE I COULD 
HAVE FOUND OUT WHAT WERE SOME 
WAYS TO MAKE IT WORK, SO, YOU 
KNOW, WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO SAY 
IS, I WISH I HAD HAD THIS BOOK 
WHEN I WAS IN MY 20s.
WHITE HAVE BEEN USEFUL. 
>> YOU MIGHT HAVE ACCEPTED THE 
BUREAU CHIEF JOB POSSIBLY. 
>> IF I HAD TAKEN TIME TO TALK 
TO MY HUSBAND ABOUT IT RATHER 
THAN ON THE SPOT SAYING NOT NOW,
MAYBE LATER.
>> YOU HAVE ABOUT 15 SECONDS TO 
GIVE YOUNG PEOPLE ADVICE, THOSE 
WHO APPEAR TO BE CEOs ONE DAY, 
MAYBE A BIT MORE THAN 15 
SECONDS. 
>> NOT EVERYBODY HAS TO WANT TO 
BE A CEO ONE DAY BUT EVERYBODY 
HAS TO WANT TO BE THE BEST THEY 
POSSIBLY CAN IN THEIR CAREERS 
AND THE BEST PIECE OF ADVICE I 
WOULD GIVE TO ANYBODY LIKE THAT 
IS DON'T LISTEN TO THAT NAYSAYER
VOICE IN YOUR HEAD, THAT 
IMPOSTER SYNDROME THAT SAYS YOU 
DON'T BELONG HERE, YOU DON'T 
DESERVE THIS, YOU DIDN'T EARN 
IT.
GUESS WHAT THERE'S PLENTY OF 
EVIDENCE, I'M SURE, AT SOME 
POINT IN YOUR CAREER THAT YOU DO
BELONG AND YOU DID EARN IT.
>> WELL, THERE ARE A LOT OF 
INTERESTING STORIES THAT CAN 
TEACH US A LOT IN THIS BOOK.
SO, THANK YOU FOR THAT.
WE'RE OUT OF TIME.
AGAIN, I WANT TO THANK JOANN 
LUBLIN FOR JOINING ME.
"EARNING IT: HARD-WON LESSONS 
FROM TRAILBLAZING WOMEN AT THE 
TOP OF THE BUSINESS WORLD" HAS 
JUST BEEN PUBLISHED BY THE 
HARPER BUSINESS IMPRINT OF 
HARPER COLLINS.
FOR THE CITY UNIVERSITY OF NEW 
YORK, AND "ONE TO ONE" I'M 
SHERYL McCARTHY.
♪ [THEME MUSIC] ♪
