Hi I'm Jenny Trott, and in this video
we're going be talking all about
advocacy. I'm interviewing Andrea Spence
Jones who is an advocate, who manages
Advocacy Orkney, and we're going to be
talking all about what advocacy is, how
you find an advocate, why you might want
to use an advocate, and what to look for
when you're looking for an advocate to
make sure that you find the right person.
So stay tuned; if you're a carer there's
lots of information here for you, and I
think you'll find it really helpful.
Hi Andrea, thank you for joining me here. I
know you've come down from Orkney for a few
days so it was really good to be able to
tie up with you. A film about advocacy and
I think probably the best thing to do to
start with is explain what advocacy is,
because I know a lot of people may have
heard the expression or the term but
don't really understand it. So advocacy
is about speaking up for someone. So
that's literally taking someone's voice
and amplifying their voice to make sure
that other people hear what this person
has to say. So that would typically be if
somebody feels that they have been
asking for things, or saying that they
need things, but the powers that be, or whoever it is they're speaking to hasn't, either
hasn't listened or genuinely hasn't
heard them.
So an advocates role there is to
actually find out what that person's
asking for and get a good representation
of that voice and then take that voice
and make sure that the person's wishes are included in any
decisions that are made about them. Okay.
Here in Scotland the word advocate is
also used in a legal sense. So how advocacy different to having a legal kind
of standing? Yeah it's confusing, it can be
confusing as a term. But what we
don't do is give legal advice. So that's
a difference between an independent
advocate and a lawyer. Our job is
purely to say that what someone wants
and help them to say what it is that
they want. So we're not there to say, this
is something that's happened to
someone that's illegal, and shouldn't have
happened. That is a lawyers job. But the
word advocacy is from the latin,
it's advocare, towards a voice. So that's the
reason that we've kept that title,
because it's a very literal
representation of what we do. And
something I think that's quite important
to mention as well, is the advocacy and
an advocate, in this sense should be
independent, is that right? Yes absolutely.
I mean everybody in life has an
advocacy role. You know people do this
all the time; doctors advocate for
patients, teachers advocate for pupils,
family members advocate for each
other. But what we're doing is something
completely separate. Because when we don't have an agenda
when we speak to somebody. So with the best will in the world families don't
always make the decision that you might
want them to make for you. So the reason
that we're independent is that we are
not, we are not affiliated to any other
agency or service. So we don't have, there
is no pressure on us. So for instance a
really good example of that would be a
social worker advocating for a client.
But they will have a frame of reference
that they need to operate within. So
they might be more risk averse, they may
not want that person to make the
decision that they would make. Whereas an
advocate would literally be listening
for, well why do you want that, you know,
that could be possible, we can find out more
about that. So we don't have
a framework that says, well we don't
really want this person to go down this
route. And that's what makes us
independent. And also in terms of
conflict of interest; an independent
advocacy agency can't offer any other
service but advocacy. So for example if
we were offering, I don't know, supported accommodation or something, and
there's a problem with that service, then
someone coming to us would, we would be
conflicted because we couldn't advocate
for the issues that person has.
Because were already providing the other service. So truly independent advocacy, the
service will only provide advocacy and
nothing else. And to be independent then
we would be members of the Scottish
Independent Advocacy Alliance and we
would also adhere to their principles
and standards and the advocates would
work to their code of practice. Okay so a
couple of things that have come up for
me there, one is, if you're looking
for an advocate, if you think that's
something that would help you, how do
you know that somebody that you're
looking to engage with is good, is there
a good advocate? I mean you just
mentioned being a member of that
organization which is obviously a good
pointer. Should you be looking for
somebody that's working for an
organization? How do you tell? Well I mean
if you were to go through any search
engine and look for independent
advocates in your area. You can go
through the SIAA, they have a map of all the agencies
that are available across Scotland. So
what you're looking for is a service
that doesn't do anything else. So that's
the first thing. That's a good pointer. Just
providing advocacy. How do you know if
they're good? Well there are, you're
looking for experienced people. Now I mean all of the advocacy services should be,
if they're truly independent,
the principles the standards that
they've signed up to tell you, for instance that they put the person first, that
they're free of conflict of interest. So
the credentials of the service should
really speak for itself. But how you know
that their goods is how you feel when
you work with that person. How you build
rapport with them, if they truly
represent your voice and are not trying to
influence you, and you feel better as a
result of their support. You'll feel it,
it's very much a, it's very much a human
advocacy isn't an the exact
science. So it's quite beautiful because
it takes its steer from the person that
you advocate for. So that's I think
that's the best way of knowing. I think
it's a heart and a head test for
the person. You're speaking about
having a voice there. How do you work
with somebody who maybe hasn't got a
physical voice, who maybe finds
communication, communicates in a slightly different way, how can you know that
you're representing them? Yeah that's a
really interesting question, it's
something that comes up a lot. There are
different types of advocacy. So if
someone tells you what they want and
there's no impediment to them being able to
tell you, we call that instructed
advocacy. That's literally from the
mouth of that person. If that's not
possible or there's any restrictions or
limitations on how someone might
convey their wishes with us then
we have to take a best-fit approach, but
that's the only time that we would do
that. And that would be something called
non-instructed advocacy. And what we're
doing there is trying to find out more
about this person. So that would involve
speaking to family members. Because we
also, we're interested in past, how
somebody, what they said in the past, and
what they're saying now. That's very
important if we're dealing with somebody
that's had an event where they've lost
their speech like after stroke or
something like that, after surgery.
So we need to get a sense of who this
person is. So the way to do that is,
who's around these people. Did they have a social worker, is there anyone that they connect with,
what's the relationship with their GP? And
then we would be asking, so a typical
example of that might be someone who has been admitted to hospital. It could be
someone elderly that's in
hospital. And they're now no longer
able to say what they want. But
what we know from speaking to everyone else
is that their wish was always that that
would be returned home. So it's
still important to find that out and
then we're making the best guess that
we possibly can. But the advocates role
is also to safeguard that
person's rights. So where decisions might be made about where is the best place
for that person, we're not looking at
what's the most convenient place for
someone to be placed in terms of an a
local authority decision, or
even a family decision. We're thinking
about what else could be put in place
so that this person could go home. So we
have to guess. But also there's a way of
reading people, you know most
communication isn't verbal.
Absolutely. You've mentioned a few scenarios already
but I suppose it's probably a good
idea to try and drill down on what
somebody might want an advocate
for, and these films are for people who
have a caring role in their life, whether
that be for someone who's young or old.
We spoke about housing, we spoke, I
think we touched on education, health
basically any any kind of scenario where
somebody's power's potentially being taken
away, is that fair? Absolutely, and it's about,
you know that that may be on the
receiving end of decision that they
didn't make and that they weren't
included in, and then an independent
advocate's role is very much about, well
what aspects of the person that you made
the decisions about, have you already
taken into account? And if you haven't,
why not? So things like people that need
a care package established. That's a
really good example of when an advocate
can be really helpful because that
person can be influenced, possibly even
unduly, by everybody else that's
working with that person. Including
family. As I said before, family, you
know we often want different things. I
love my family but I'm not sure I would let them make a decision for me about where was
the best place for me to live. I don't
know if we would choose the same thing. Yeah.
So I think that's actually about, then, you
know, you really need to drill down and
understand what that person's needs are.
And if you're looking at a care package
often people will say, they might, people
can be very compliant when they feel
vulnerable. So an advocate's job is to
find out, are they just agreeing to
something that they don't really want,
but that everyone else thinks is better.
So we would be asking the questions
about making an informed decision. That's
very much what we're doing too - what are
the pros and cons of this decision if
you make it,  encouraging people to take
time to think about things, to not be
rushed into decisions. And interestingly
I would also see that carers, not
there's a new Carers Act and they
have the right to a carer's plan. And we know
that that's something that's kind of
slow to get off the ground. So carers
themselves may need an advocate to
speak up for them and their rights. That's
really interesting. Is there any
circumstances where an individual would
have a legal right to an advocate? Yes
there is in law, in Scots law there is a
Mental health and treatment Act, which
is from to 2003. And that states categorically
that you have a right to an independent
advocate if you have a mental health
condition. But really interestingly, and
rather wonderfully I think for Scotland,
you can evoke the spirit of the act and the
Act does not ask you to define what that
mental illness is. So we don't say to
people, please bring in your diagnosis
and then we'll decide whether or not
we can help you. So you know and people,
mental illness can be transient. It can
be situational, it can be in response to
bereavement. So really the act, but they
act does say you are entitled to have an
advocate. More recently the new social
security bill in Scotland also says if
you have a disability you will have a
statutory right to independent advocacy.
The Children's Hearings Act is being revised, that's also about children being
supported. So it's really important I
think that people understand that in
some instances they actually have a
statutory right, not just the desire. Yes
Of course something that everyone is
going to want to know the answer to is
there a cost attached to this, and if
there is how do you know whether you're
being ripped off or not? No there
shouldn't be a cost. I can't speak for
every agency in Scotland but in terms of
the ethics of independent advocacy the
whole point is that it's free to
everybody, that it's confidential, it's
non-judgmental, that it's free. And that's
a fabulous thing because were there to
be a charge levied you could argue that
that would affect how people are
prioritized, and independent advocates
want to stay well away from that. We're
there to address a power imbalance that
exists naturally in society, we wouldn't
want to create another one by charging
people. So it's not about cost or what
people can afford, it's about what they're
entitled to. It's about what their rights are
as an individual. So no charge and that
should be clear when you approach an advocacy
agency, it should be made very
clear to you, at any intake or initial
referral,  that there won;t be a cost, at any
point throughout your support. That's really
that's really important. So part of
defining what I suppose the role an advocate
is and does do, would also be being quite
clear about what an advocate wouldn't or
shouldn't or doesn't do. So maybe we
could touch on that? Yes I mean I think
these, as I said earlier, advocacy isn't
an exact science but it does have very
clear boundaries about what we can and
can't do. So for instance an independent
advocate can't collude with anything
illegal. If someone came to us and said I
want help to go back to driving even
though I'm not allowed to drive anymore,
we couldn't advocate for that position.
We also can't give advice. So that's
something that people may be don't
appreciate because they might come to us
and say, what shall I do? We're very often asked as well, when the trust and
rapport has established, people often
ask, what would you do? But it's very
important that an independent advocate
doesn't say what they would to do
because they're not that person, they're
not living that life, and what's right
for one person isn't it necessarily
right for another. And if people are
feeling vulnerable or impressionable
there's a huge responsibility in not
saying, well here's what I think that you
should do, or here's what I would do. So
it's very much about exploring options
with someone and helping them come to
that decision themselves. So we would
never say, well we think you should go to
this home, we think you should stay there, I
think you should not work for this
employer, anything like that. So advice
giving is what agencies like
Citizen's Advice would do, that's not what we do at all. We can give information, and we can give
steer. It's not unusual for us to say
people, other people in this situation
have found this helpful, but it's still not
advice, it's just pointing people in
direction. So we do a lot of onward referral 
as well, to other agencies.
So if we hear, if things come up and
it's clearly that a family may need
mediation or support or counselling that's
very different from what an independent
advocate does, so what we would do there
is make and onward referral, and that's
where people get advice.
So really for us it's just about what
does the person need. It sounds like an
amazing job, I bet you love it. I absolutely
adore it, it's the best job in the
world. It's an absolute privilege to
advocate for people. It's a big
responsibility because people's lives
are so important but it's a wonderful
thing. And never, I have never seen
advocacy do any harm. I think it's
probably quite important to say that an
independent advocate isn't there
necessarily to get you the outcome that
you want. Their role is to
make sure that you're included in those
decisions and that you're heard. But as a
result of that, when communication is open
and people are being listened to,
they're therefore being validated
they're being valued, they've been
understood, appreciated as the person
that they are, and that often leads to the
right result because people start to
think differently. And people who have
made decisions start to think about
the person and not what their policy or
procedure says. And that's when it's most effective.
It's hugely important. Well thank you for the work you do Andrea, and thank you for coming and explaining
everything about advocacy. I think that's
been hugely interesting to everybody,
thank you so much. My pleasure, thank you. Well I hope you found that interesting
and useful. If you have a caring role as
part of your life then I would suggest
you have a look at the rest of my
channel. There's lots of videos there that
I think you'll find equally helpful, and
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