PAUL JAY, SENIOR EDITOR, TRNN: Welcome to
The Real News Network.
I'm Paul Jay in Baltimore.
Since 1996, more than 6 million people have
been killed in civil war in the Congo.
In February of this year, a groundbreaking
agreement was signed called Peace, Security,
and Cooperation Framework for the Democratic
Republic of the Congo and the Region.
The agreement was signed in February by 11
African countries, including Angola, Burundi,
Central African Republic, Republic of Congo,
the Democratic Republic of Congo, Rwanda,
South Africa, South Sudan, Uganda, Tanzania,
and Zambia.
On Wednesday, May 22, World Bank Group president
Dr. Jim Yong Kim and United Nations Secretary-General
Ban Ki-moon will make a visit to the African
Great Lakes region to show their support for
this peace agreement and to push for economic
development.
Now joining us to talk about the peace agreement
and the trip is Maurice Carney.
He's the executive director and cofounder
of Friends of the Congo.
And he joins us now from Washington, D.C.
Thanks for joining us again, Maurice.
MAURICE CARNEY, EXEC.
DIR. AND COFOUNDER, FRIENDS OF THE CONGO:
It is good to be with you again, Paul.
JAY: So, first of all, why the trip now, and
what do you make of the agreement?
CARNEY: What I'd like to share with you, Paul,
and for the viewing audience to understand:
that the peace agreement, the peace framework,
and the subsequent trip to the region on the
part of the UN head and the World Bank head
is really an alternative to what can be done
directly.
That is to say, a major obstacle for the Western
nations and the Western institutions is that
at the core of the instability in the Congo
are Western allies Rwanda and Uganda.
So instead of the United States pursuing policies
that will hold its allies accountable, they've
developed alternatives that would wind up
not actually getting to the core of the matter,
alternatives that would let Rwanda and Uganda
off the hook.
And this peace framework that was developed
by the United Nations represents this alternative,
which is not the optimum way to bring about
peace, stability in the region.
So I wanted to make that clear.
JAY: Hold on for a sec.
I mean, wouldn't some people argue--perhaps
the Obama administration might argue this--that
this is better to have a regional framework?
Why should the Americans be telling countries
what to do or what not to do in Africa?
Why shouldn't it be the region that sorts
this out?
CARNEY: Oh, no, absolutely.
It's not a question of the Obama administration
telling nations what to do or what not to
do.
It's a question of whether the Obama administration
pursues policies, Paul, that support nations
that are sponsoring war criminals in the Congo
that are destabilizing the Congo.
It's a question of whether the Obama administration
wants to continue to finance, continue to
arm, continue to train, continue to provide
diplomatic cover and run political interference
on the part of Rwanda and Uganda, who are
sponsoring and directing the instability in
the region.
So it's a question of where you see the United
States playing a direct support role to those
who are destabilizing the region.
JAY: Paul Kagame, the president of Rwanda,
he denies that Rwanda's playing this role
in Congo, and he says that this is Congolese
can't sort out their own affairs so they're
blaming us.
CARNEY: Listen, the evidence is overwhelming.
Whether we talk about the 1997 Garreton Report,
you know, or the 2001 to 2003 series of four
UN reports that said Rwanda and Uganda, Paul
Kagame and Yoweri Museveni are the godfathers
of the looting of the Congo, or we look at
the 2010 UN mapping report that says Rwanda
may have committed genocide in the Congo if
tried in front of a competent court, it could
be determined that Rwanda committed genocide
in the Congo, or we look at the 2008 report
by the United Nations Group of Experts that
documented how Rwanda was supporting then
rebel leader in the Congo Laurent Nkunda,
that Rwanda subsequently put under house arrest
in Rwanda, and then the 2012 report, there's
just an abundance of evidence.
There's little to no dispute about the role
that Rwanda and Uganda have played.
I mean, they've invaded the Congo twice, in
1996 and in 1998.
When they invaded Congo in 1998, the Southern
African Development Community nations, led
by Zimbabwe and Namibia and Angola, they fought
Rwanda and Uganda inside of the Congo to kick
them out of the Congo, in an attempt to kick
them out of the Congo.
So you had African nations that have confronted
these U.S.-backed invasions militarily.
So that's the history.
So there's very little dispute about whether
or not Rwanda is sponsoring militia in the
Congo.
JAY: So what's the substance of this framework
agreement, then?
You know, the two countries that seem key
here is Rwanda and Uganda.
What have they agreed to in this framework?
CARNEY: Well, a lot of the framework, what's
in the framework, actually, are proposals
that came out of efforts that Rwanda and Uganda
have put in place under what they call the
International Conference on the Great Lakes
Region, which is the nine countries that are
neighboring the Congo, plus Kenya, that make
up the International Conference on the Great
Lakes Region.
And in an attempt to not hold Rwanda accountable
for its intervention in the Congo, the International
Conference on the Great Lakes Region, cheered
by Uganda, came up with much of this proposal.
Even the rapid intervention brigade that's
also a central part of this peace framework,
that was something that came out of the International
Conference on the Great Lakes Region.
So we see here that these proposals on the
peace framework and whatever the International
Conference on the Great Lakes Region have
developed in the past have skirted the issue
of holding Rwanda accountable and delivering
justice for the Congolese people.
So we've seen this pattern, whether it's on
the regional level or on the international
level, the reluctance on the part of world
leaders to hold Rwanda accountable, for a
whole host of reasons, many of which I've
shared with you already.
JAY: So why do you think the World Bank and
the UN head are going now?
I mean, why are they getting so involved in
what you're saying is sort of a fig leaf process?
CARNEY: They're getting involved now because
there's been--or they've been involved for
a while, but they're getting involved at this
juncture because there's been greater pressure
put on, you know, the major players in the
world to address this Congo crisis.
And the pressure that's been put on has resulted
in this alternative or less than viable proposal,
we argue, that's been put on the table.
So that's the reason why they're getting involved
now, because of pressure.
There's greater media attention.
Human rights groups are speaking up more.
Whatever is happening in the region now, like,
you're covering it on your broadcast outlet,
Al Jazeera's covering it, others are covering
it.
So there's greater attention being shone on
the region.
And as a result of that, we see the role that
the United States in particular and United
Kingdom are playing in perpetuating the conflict
through their support of their allies Rwanda
and Uganda.
And one of the reasons why the--another reason
why the World Bank in particular is getting
engaged is because Rwanda itself--Rwanda is
the darling of the West.
It really represents--the country represents
the beachhead of neoliberalism in the heart
of Africa.
So they want to preserve this neoliberal model.
And that's why you see the World Bank coming
in and talking about economic development.
And the economic development they're talking
about is firmly ensconced in this neoliberal
approach, where assets are privatized, where
mining companies are given sweetheart deals,
where the local population do not exercise
any resource sovereignty over the enormous
wealth that is there.
So it is these policies that are being pushed
by the UN and by the World Bank.
And Rwanda is held up to the world as the
model for the future of the region and, as
Bill Clinton would probably say, the future
of the African continent, where we see neoliberalism
on full display and Rwanda and Paul Kagame
being at the forefront of this effort.
JAY: So that doesn't go very well with holding
Rwanda accountable for what's going on in
the Congo, its support of rebel groups in
the Congo.
CARNEY: Not at all.
Not at all.
If there is no justice that's delivered to
the Congolese people, we're not going to get
stability.
Even the peace framework, it's important to
understand that it was developed from the
outside.
It's something that was developed--it was
not the Congolese that developed this peace
framework.
It was the Congolese who are seeking peace.
It's the Congolese who are seeking justice.
JAY: I think we should add that when you say
these things, you're not really including
the Congolese government.
You don't leave them off the hook, do you?
CARNEY: Well, the Congolese government, as
we've shared before on this program, doesn't
have the legitimacy and the support of the
people.
They appropriated the 2011 elections with
the backing of the international community.
And as I've shared in the past, there are
two fundamental challenges that the Congolese
people face.
One is the intervention on the part of its
neighbors Rwanda and Uganda.
And the second is an illegitimate regime in
the form of Joseph Kabila's government that
doesn't represent the interests of the Congolese
people.
So they're trapped in between these two forces,
and they're fighting to extricate themselves
from really what is a dictatorial network
that's in the region.
Ban Ki-moon and the World Bank head is going
there.
They're going to visit Paul Kagame.
They're going to visit Yoweri Museveni and
Joseph Kabila.
As long as these strongmen and this dictatorial
network is kept in place and backed up by
the UN, backed up by the World Bank, backed
up by the United States, we're going to see
instability in the region, we're going to
see dependency continue on the part of the
Congolese people, we're going to see impoverishment
maintain its same course, and we're going
to see a situation where the Congolese people
don't control their own affairs, where the
Congolese people are not able to realize the
benefits from the enormous wealth that they
have in their country.
JAY: Alright.
Thanks for joining us, Maurice.
CARNEY: Alright.
Thank you.
JAY: And thank you for joining us on The Real
News Network.
