- This is a really fast,
quickly growing movement
among millennials,
something like 10%
identify as a third gender.
So that's a lot of people and
I would be totally on board
with people identifying
however they want,
if it didn't also include things
like medical interventions,
like double mastectomies,
taking testosterone,
testosterone in a lot of cases.
And in a lot of the cases,
I think these are
just young gay people
who are struggling with that.
(upbeat music)
- I'm Dave Rubin, and
this is the Rubin Report
as always guys make
sure you're subscribed
to our YouTube channel
and have clicked
that pesky notification bell.
And joining me today
is a neuroscientist
who specializes in gender
sex and sexual orientation,
as well as the author
of the new book,
"The End of Gender"
debunking the myths
about sex and identity
in our society.
Dr.Debra Soh welcome
back to the Rubin Report.
- Hi Dave, thank you
for having me again.
- So I was checking
right before I sat down
to see when I had you on last
and it's almost two
years to the day,
it's two years to the week.
And we were talking
about much of the stuff
that you wrote
about in this book,
gender and the whole LGBT
letter conglomeration
and identity, and
all of these things.
And I remember when we sat
down for the first time
that a lot of people said,
"Oh no, this trans
stuff, this isn't real,
nobody really cares
about this stuff.
All these things, these
are just made up things
that only academics and
you YouTubers care about."
Flash forward two years to
where we're at right now
with your book
coming out this week.
And it's like, this is one
of the biggest issues around.
So I guess my first question
is it must feel pretty good
to not be crazy?
- I guess so, but
I've just so horrified
by how everything
has turned out.
I mean, I was really hop...
When I saw you two years ago,
I remember things were
just starting to pick up
in the mainstream,
and I was still hoping
there's still a chance maybe
this is gonna get caught,
people are gonna
figure things out,
we're gonna be able
to cut this off
before it gets too crazy,
but it really has
just gotten worse.
And with "The End of Gender",
I wrote that book really
with the hope of trying to,
again, bring more
attention to these issues
so that people might
take them seriously
and realize that we're not just
a bunch of fringe, crazy people
complaining about things,
these have real implications
for people's lives,
especially for young people.
And it's gonna be really,
really unfortunate
and ugly in a few years.
- Yeah. All right.
So the book is
really spectacular
and you dive into
what are considered
some of the most controversial
topics of the day.
So we're obviously gonna
get to all of that,
but for anyone watching this,
that didn't see our
first interview,
can you just do like a quick
two minute sort of recap
of your bio, of your training
that led you to write this book.
- Right, so I, when
I was in my PhD...
So I have a PhD in Sexual
Neuroscience Research,
I now work as a journalist,
I write predominantly about
the science of sex and gender
also about politics
and how politicization
of scientific research is really
doing society a disservice.
And I also write a lot
about academic freedom
because that's becoming
another problem
that we're seeing.
And so for myself in the
last few years of my PhD,
I had noticed that
the political climate
of academia was shifting,
and it was becoming very clear
that there are certain topics
that you were not
allowed to research,
that you're not allowed
to talk about or discuss,
even if you are a scientific
expert in the field.
And one topic in particular
that I had been following
was the issue of gender
transition in children.
And so at that time, every
single mainstream newspaper,
pretty much I could count them
on maybe one or two fingers,
the number of pieces
that had come out,
criticizing this at that time,
said that the best way
forward for children
who are gender dysphoric,
so they feel they're more
like the opposite sex
than the sex that
they were born as,
the best way forward for them
was to socially transition
at a young age,
younger being better,
and that once they
detransition, they flourished,
parents would say that
they're doing so much better,
but from a scientific
perspective,
all of the research
literature suggests that
it's actually better
for these children
to wait until they
reach puberty,
there's a very, very high chance
that they're going to
outgrow the way they feel,
they're more likely to grow
up to be gay and adulthood.
And so I wrote an
op-ed about this,
and I waited about six
months because I didn't know
if I really wanted to
publish it 'cause I knew
it was going to be..
There was gonna
be huge backlash.
And I asked a number of
my mentors and colleagues,
what I should do,
and I remember one of
my mentors said to me,
I asked him, should I
wait until I have tenure?
Because at the time I had
planned to stay in academia
and I had a whole plan in
terms of what I was gonna do
in terms of my research,
and he said that tenure
would not protect me
in this climate.
So I decided to
publish that piece.
And it was a difficult time,
I'm really glad I did it.
And I write in the book about,
what that process
was like for me
and what it was
like being mobbed
really badly for the first time.
But once you get through your
first mobbing, you're fine,
and they can't stop me now.
- Yeah, it's funny because I've
been through my own version
of the mob thing and
I feel the same way.
Once you get through
it, you will survive.
It's gonna hurt, it's gonna
suck all of that stuff,
but once you get
through it and survive,
you will be stronger
on the other side.
Could you just talk
a little bit though
about the reaction
from your colleagues,
because I'm still, I think
a lot of people can't accept
somehow that academia
could be this corrupt,
that when you write a paper
using scientific evidence
saying that when you
transition this young,
it doesn't necessarily
lead to a happier life
and you use data and
evidence to support that,
that you still get hit
from the other academics.
Like I think people
can't really...
The average person
who's not in academia,
can't really understand how
that happened to academia.
- Well, I would say
within sex research,
which was my discipline,
it really has been like a
canary in the coal mine,
because we saw these issues,
especially left
leaning science denial,
this has been an issue
for decades in sexology,
which is the scientific
study of sex and gender.
So most of us in
sexology are liberals,
I consider myself
still to be a liberal.
And I think my colleagues
are just focused
on doing good work
as they should be.
So I wouldn't say, not
that you were saying this,
but I wouldn't say sex research
necessarily
themselves are corrupt
and why they stay
silent, it's more that
they know that they already
have a target on their back.
Usually sexologists are
dealing from science
now are coming from the
right, 'cause usually
not everyone on the
writers has an issue
with sex researchers, but
historically it's been more
on the right.
Now that it's coming
from the left,
it's like sex researchers
don't know how to deal with it
because in a lot of cases
it's people in the same side
as you, and you're you
feel as though, well,
is this really as
important as calling out
when the right comes after us?
So I think that's
one layer of it.
You know it's very
competitive in academia
and to get a tenure position
is almost unheard of nowadays.
So you're very busy,
it's stressful.
And then you have
these other academics
and other disciplines
who are not scientific,
not to say that they
all have bad intentions,
but they're starting to take
over, they're the most vocal.
And they're getting a
lot of support also,
I would say by
mainstream news outlets.
So as time goes on, it feels,
I think more and more
like you have more to lose
than to gain by speaking out,
so why start speaking out now?
And that's how we
got to where we are.
- So one of the things
that I'm really amazed by,
and I've brought this
up with a couple guests
when I've talked
about the trans issue,
I've talked about this
with Douglas Murray
and with Rob Smith and
a couple of other people
is that in many ways
the trans movement now
seems almost
perversely anti-gay,
meaning that if you're
in a feminine young boy,
they would rather see you
transitioned to be female,
rather than accept that you
actually are just a gay male.
So I also think just
for me personally,
it's particularly
weird because I played
with "G.I. Joe and
the Transformers".
So no one thought I
was gay per se, right?
But if I...
But I have friends that
played that were boys
that played with Barbies and
people thought they were gay
when they were five.
And that if they now,
even though they're maybe
in their forties now,
if they were growing up now
and they were four years old,
five years old doing that,
they would have been
put through transition.
And that seems sort of
anti-gay, doesn't it?
- 100%, 100% and myself,
as we talked last time
I was with you, I grew
up in the gay community.
I find this very upsetting.
I have countless friends
who have reached out to me
over the years saying,
you know, "Deborah,
if I were growing up now,
I probably would
have transitioned."
Because this is
such a common thing,
when you are a young child
who is likely going to grow up
to be gay, you tend
to be gender atypical
and have interests that
are gender atypical
and friends of the opposite sex.
So that's been a
huge concern of mine,
especially we talked also
about how transitioning now,
I consider it, and I
think many in the field
will agree, that it is like
the new conversion therapy,
where if you have
healthy gay child,
say you have a little
boy, who's very feminine,
I think some
parents have a sense
there's a chance that he's
gonna grow up to be gay.
So if he's attracted to
men, when he's older,
if he transitions to female
as a child, when he grows up,
he's going to be or appear
to be a straight woman.
So that, I mean...
And I think homophobia
does play a role
in terms of the parents who...
Not for all of them,
but for some of them
who are so on board with this
and who are championing
this movement.
And then there's
another layer I think
of anti-gay sentiments in that
you have some individuals,
some trans women, not
all who are saying,
if I'm a woman and I
still have body parts
that would be considered male,
if you are attracted to women,
you should be wanting
to have sex with me.
And I don't think
that's okay either.
I think it's totally fine if
people are open to having...
I think trans people do
deserve love and respect,
but I also don't think it's
right to impose on people.
Just like some
people might not be
into Asians with blonde hair
and that's perfectly
their right.
- Yeah.
Do you think it's starting
the sort of hysterical nature
of this, of what
you just described.
Like you have to be attracted
to me if this and all of those
things, do you think it's
starting to backfire on them?
Because I think most
people, even conservatives
that sort of, as you
alluded to earlier,
they don't sort of love
talking about these topics.
I don't know a lot
of conservatives
that don't want trans people.
I don't know any
conservatives actually
that don't want trans
people to be treated equally
under the law or something
or something like that,
but I do sense that
there's a real backlash now
where the movement
has gone so far,
that people are just like,
you know what, forget
this whole thing.
Like the whole thing is evil.
And that's what
I'm worried about.
Because when we group
these letters together,
I can sort of
understand the people
that are frustrated like that.
- I could see that what
we're really concerns me
is where we are gonna be going,
what the next step
is gonna be in terms
of what the outcome is gonna be.
And so we're seeing also this
growing trend of nonbinary
people identifying as nonbinary.
And again, that can
be for some people,
a way of coping the fact
that they are gay or lesbian,
and they are not yet able to
accept that about themselves
or because it is easier to
not identify as gay in society
because there is
still homophobia.
And so again-
- Can you just explain
what non-binary is,
just for someone
that might not know?
- Yeah, so it's people who
identify as third gender.
So they may say they're
both genders or neither.
And so non-binary gender
fluid, gender neutral,
gender queer, even though
queer is considered
by some peoples to be a
slur against gay people,
I don't tend to like
to use the word queer.
So yeah, so this
is a really fast,
quickly growing movement
among millennials.
Something like 10%
identify as a third gender.
So that's a lot of people and
I would be totally on board
people identifying
however they want.
If it didn't also include things
like medical interventions,
like double mastectomies,
taking testosterone,
testosterone, a lot of cases.
And in a lot of the cases,
I think these are
just young gay people
who are struggling with that
and we should offer them support
instead of having them
undergo these interventions.
- Right? So that's what
I think is so interesting
about this, because I
think the average person
wants most people to
live and let live.
However you identify,
that's fine,
as long as you're not forcing
someone to do something,
I think what, what happens
then is this next version
where it's like you can
say you're non-binary,
and if you feel that
way, then so be it.
But what happens is then they
won't let you accept biology.
So now it seems like this is now
in direct conflict with biology.
And I think a lot of
people are sort of...
They're like, no, that's
the last line here
that we're just
not gonna give on.
Do you think that's fair to say?
- Right? And again, like you,
I have no issue with people
how they wanna identify,
just don't tell me that,
that's what the
scientific research shows,
because when you
start denying science
that doesn't help anyone
and the truth is eventually
going to come out.
So with regards to gender,
gender is binary
because for 99% of us,
our gender is our
biological sex.
Of course, they're
intersex people
and they're trans
people for whom
this doesn't necessarily apply,
but that's not to say
that gender is a spectrum
or that it's
however you want it.
You don't, choose your gender.
This is what they're
teaching in education that,
that people choose their gender.
And I think it's really
harmful to put all this
misinformation out there,
especially in the case of
someone who is identifying
this way, for
reasons that may come
from their own
internal struggles
and maybe they have other
mental health issues,
and they're not...
We're not being able
to talk about that.
I think if we could
have the conversation
and someone could say,
"Yes, I've considered
all these things,
but I still feel I would like
to have a double mastectomy."
And that would be better for me,
even though a lot of these
individuals are really young
when they're doing this,
then I wouldn't have
so much of a problem,
but we can't even
have the conversation.
If you've been tried
to bring it up,
it's considered hateful.
Even to say that
there are two genders
is considered transphobic now.
- Right, so what...
So alright.
Some people watching
this are gonna clip it
and show say that
you're transphobic
and I'm a self hating gay
and all the usual stuff.
So to counter that, and you
write about this in the book,
can you just sort of
give me the roadmap,
if there was a young
person, six years old,
that really felt that,
they were physically a boy,
but they identified as a girl.
What do you think a
healthy roadmap would be
as opposed to the
unhealthy roadmap
that you're talking about,
that's just transitioning them
at such a younger age?
- I would say to the parents,
especially just to love
your child unconditionally,
it doesn't matter what
toys they wanna play with,
what they wanna dress,
how they wanna dress,
who their friends are,
anything like that.
Let, if this little boy wants
to wear makeup and dresses
and play with his girlfriends,
and that should be totally fine.
And conversely, if
you have a little boy
who is male typical, I
think that's also fine.
I think among,
especially woke parents,
they don't want their children
to be gender typical nowadays,
which is just so bizarre.
So it's like the inverse
of what it used to be
that parents didn't
want their kids playing
with gender atypical toys,
because they're afraid
their kids are gonna grow up
to be gay, and now it's
that they don't want them
playing with gender typical toys
because they think
that's gonna limit their
growth as an adult.
So yeah, just leave him alone.
And if he says he wants
to be the opposite sex,
see how he feels up puberty.
- Right. So then what
does that look like?
So now, okay, so the
child, they love them,
they let them play with
whatever they want,
be friends with
whoever they want,
or wear whatever
they want, et cetera.
Now puberty comes along
then where are you at?
- Well, what would
normally happen,
saving what's been documented
in the research literature
is children who are
gender dysphoric,
once they start having
crushes on their peers,
once they start growing
into their bodies,
a lot of them realize, this
is actually pretty great,
I like my body and I'm happy.
The ones who remain
dysphoric and persist,
I would recommend seeing a
mental health professional,
or even prior to that point,
if the child's gender dysphoria
is quite severe
and debilitating.
The issue though, is that
nowadays the vast vast majority
of mental health
professionals who work
with gender dysphoric children
and even gender
dysphoric adults are,
I don't wanna say that
they're compromised,
but definitely ideology
is playing a huge role
in terms of how they practice,
because they cannot by law
say anything other than,
yes, if you wanna
transition, I'll help you,
I'll help to facilitate this,
because they're gonna
be accused of commit
of practicing
conversion therapy.
Even though conversion
therapy for gender identity
does not exist, there's
a difference between
conversion therapy for
sexual orientation,
which as we talked about
last time is not effective,
it should not be done.
There's no such thing as
conversion therapy for gender
identity because young
children who identify
as the opposite sex,
again, their gender is,
I don't use the word fluid,
but it's more flexible
because they haven't
fully developed yet.
So with development,
they're more likely
to feel differently.
- All right.
So just to completely
clear that up,
and we did go into
the first part
or the second part last time.
So gender or conversion
therapy for gay people,
meaning to take a young gay
boy and to do whatever version
of conversion therapy there is,
there's just no evidence
that, that actually works.
What you're saying here is
if a therapist was dealing
with a young person who
identified as the other gender,
that in essence, they
sort of have to go with it
because what is it that they
would lose their license
or or is there...
'Cause it's not
conversion at that point
at some level, right?
Like what...
Or you think it's just the
pressure of being a therapist
that they'll be ostracized?
- It's the climate, it's
that other professionals
will ostracize it's because
they do run the risk
of then losing their license
because organizations
will come after them and say,
"You are not
practicing according
to what the standards
are supposed to be."
They'll also have activists
coming after them trying
to ruin their reputation
and their livelihood.
And so what has happened
is I know colleagues
who have told me that anyone
who does not feel right
about this, they are
leaving the field.
They will not see patients
with gender dysphoria period
because they just,
they don't feel right,
and they can't do
their job properly.
- Yeah. All right.
So I know you're a
neuroscientist first
and you'd talk a lot
about the brain science
behind some of this stuff.
Can we do like a, like
a sort of simple version
of what studying the
brain would show you
about say what a cisgendered
heterosexual brain
might look like versus
the brain of a gay person
versus a trans person?
- Right.
So there is a very strong
research literature documenting
differences in the
brain associated with
sexual orientation.
So the gay people
and straight people,
when they're viewing
pornography of their choice,
that they prefer.
So if you have a straight man,
he'd be looking at women,
if you have a gay man,
he's looking at men,
the same network of brain
regions activate in the brain.
So it has to do with emotion,
has to do with
the visual system,
has to do with
regulating sexual drive.
And so people often ask me
about the neuro imaging research
as it pertains to
the transgender
population in terms of,
is this something biological?
Is this something that
we can see in the brain?
Because I think
regardless of what
your political affiliation is,
people are curious to know,
is this something that is
hardwired or can it be changed?
Most people on the left,
I would say argue in
favor of biological
or brain-based explanations
for gender dysphoria
because in their minds that
justifies a transitioning.
And I have to be clear,
I do think that adults
should be supported
in transitioning.
I have no issue with that,
and research does
show that for adults,
transition can be
beneficial for them.
So the issue I have is when
people start taking again,
the research and
trying to bend it
to fit their
political narrative.
And so we had one
study that came out,
I think it was a
year ago that was
in children with
gender dysphoria.
So the research literature
todate has been looking
at gender dysphoria and the
brain has been in adults.
And so what it has
shown is that adults
with gender dysphoria,
their brains are shifted
in the direction of the
sex they identify as,
as opposed to
their sex at birth.
So if you have a trans
woman, so she was born male,
identifies as female,
her brain has shifted in
the direction of females.
But the thing is,
all these studies
is that they are conflated
with sexual orientation.
So again, everyone in the study,
so if you have a trans
woman, she was born male,
identifies as female, she's
also attracted to men.
So in all of these
studies of trans people,
they're attracted to people
who shared their birth sex.
So from a sexological
perspective,
'cause it can get a
little bit confusing,
sexology we consider sexual
orientation for someone
who's trans is based
on their birth sex,
as opposed to how they
would be post-transition.
So all this to say
is what the kids,
this study got so
much media attention,
people saying that
gender dysphoria
is see it's in the brain,
cause they similarly showed
that their brains are
shifted in the direction
of the sex they identify as,
and this was taken to be
support for early transitioning.
But again, we don't know
the sexual orientation
was not reported,
so we don't know.
Maybe these children, when
they hit puberty and get older,
are going to be gay,
and again, they don't
need to transition.
So it's a really...
The sad thing is
that researchers just
don't wanna touch this now,
so what you will find is all
of the research coming out
is compromised because
the only people
that are doing these
studies are scientists
who are totally on board
with gender ideology,
and they know that they're
not gonna have any issue
when the studies come out.
Any studies that come out
criticizing gender ideology
or criticizing trans
activism are either gonna
get put under review
for a second time,
which is completely
ridiculous and unnecessary,
or they're gonna be retracted,
or the scientist is gonna
be called names and smeared.
So a lot of people just say,
I'm gonna pick something else.
- Yeah. Well, that's why I find
what you do so fascinating,
'cause it's like sex is
always controversial period
in eternity, in human history,
everything about sex
is controversial.
And then when you couple it
with this new woke ideology,
it's like, I could see
why someone like you
would be worried, years ago
about putting that paper out
or why the average
researcher now is just like,
I don't need the headache
and I'm not gonna do it.
You mentioned before
that there is evidence
that when adults transition
that they are happier
on the other side.
Is that overwhelming or is
it 50/50 or do you know?
- There was a meta
analysis that showed
that it can be beneficial,
but I think what's important
is that is taken on
a case-by-case basis,
and that each individual
is able to get the support
they need and to go
through a proper assessment
with a mental health
professional to determine
is their gender dysphoria
really about gender
and is this something
that can be solved
through transitioning?
Because in a lot of cases,
there are other issues going on.
There was one study
that showed for people
who present with
gender dysphoria,
as many as 60% have another
psychiatric mental condition.
And so that's something
that needs to be taken
into consideration.
But the thing is now
people don't even wanna say
that gender dysphoria has
anything to do with the mind
or the mental illness because
mental illness is stigmatized.
And I don't think mental
illness or gender dysphoria
or transitioning
should be stigmatized,
but there is no way we're
going to remove the stigma
if we are not able to
talk about it openly.
- Yeah, I don't remember if
this happened to me before
we last spoke on the show,
but I was at an event at
University of New Hampshire,
and I was talking
about this topic
and there was a woman
who said she was trans
and she was yelling
that I'm a Nazi,
I'm a racist and
all the usual stuff,
and I kept saying, "Listen,
I want you to be treated
equally under the law,
I hope you have
someone that loves you,
I want you to be able
to be employed and happy
and have all the benefits
of everybody else."
And she just kept saying, I'm
awful and all these things.
You're not gonna believe
this or maybe you will.
It turns out that she was
a Gender Studies Professor
at the university.
I assume that's
pretty consistent with
what you're hearing
at the university
level too, right?
Not just the research level,
but just even at just the
university, the teaching level.
- I find it's usually the
people who are always advocating
for love and tolerance
and acceptance,
who are the most
aggressive and nasty
when they disagree with you.
And so that's not to say
that all gender scholars
are like that definitely,
but I do find I'm always amazed
because the whole purpose
of being an academia is
about debating ideas.
I would think that's the reason
you choose to be a professor
is you want to share ideas,
debate with your colleagues.
It's about vigorously
disagreeing,
and that's how you
get at the truth.
And that's completely taken
off the table nowadays.
Now it's about very much,
there's only one way to
think about an issue,
and if you think
outside of that issue,
yes, you're gonna
be called a Nazi,
you're gonna be deeply informed,
you're gonna be smeared publicly
and they're gonna try
and get you fired.
So it's really absurd,
but I think it's not just
in academia anymore as we see
everybody getting cancelled.
Now this has spread
to the mainstream.
- Yeah, is it weird
for you to be sort of
in a political fight
because that's not...
Sex is political now,
but like it's not really
what your passion is.
But just from following
you on Twitter,
like you're in the
political fight
as much as I am at this point.
- I didn't ever think
this is what I'd be doing,
I really thought I
would be a scientist.
I've always loved to write,
so I was hoping to maybe write
one day, do a book one day.
And the fact that I've gotten
the chance to do one now
is just been such a blessing
and I feel so grateful.
But for sure, I feel
it's something...
I feel very strongly and I've
always felt very strongly
about speaking my mind, and
so I think it does make sense
in a way that this is the
direction I ended up going in,
because I feel in this climate,
you don't really have a choice,
either you're gonna put your
head down and stay quiet
and just, it's not worth it.
Or you're gonna say,
you're gonna go through
the multiple Mobbins
and say, "Okay, keep
it coming then."
- Yeah.
You obviously talk in the book
and you've sort of
mentioned it here
about just the denial of
what is actually presented
in the research.
Have you figured out any
tricks beyond going on podcasts
and talking about this stuff
on YouTube and everything else
to convince people that
evidence actually matters,
because in many ways
I think what the left
is throwing at us now is just
sort of this anti-intellectual
set of ideas.
It's just, it doesn't matter,
like the more evidence that
you show in a certain way,
it almost, they use that as
proof that they are, right
because you're part
of the patriarchy
or you're part of the machine
that they're trying
to dismantle.
Have you figured out
any tricks to actually
break through in a way?
- I generally don't
try to change the minds
of people who are
on either extreme
or who are extremely
ideological,
'cause I feel at that point,
it is their are
comparisons being made
to people who are
extremely ideological
and people who are in a cult.
And I do feel in some
ways it's really difficult
to break through to someone,
especially on the internet,
unless you're sitting down
with them face-to-face.
Maybe that can
make a difference,
but I try to speak to the
people who aren't really sure
what they think or
they wanna learn more,
and I always
appreciate when people
go to the primary source.
So I mean, I am sure,
you know how this feels,
I get accused of "saying
things all the time
when I've never
said whatever it is,
the person who is
saying that I said"
This will be reported
in newspapers,
this'll be all
over social media.
It's crazy to me.
I don't know how
someone can do that
and feel okay about doing that,
especially if you
know this is something
that other people are
gonna see publicly.
And I also think if they
wanted to actually end issues
like discrimination
against particular sexual
and gender minority groups,
that you would actually
wanna go after people
who are saying hateful things.
If I'm just reporting
what the research says,
and you have a problem with me,
then let's talk
about the research
and what your issues
are with that.
And some people do,
and I appreciate that and
I will engage with someone
if it's in good faith.
But if you are making
things up and saying
that I'm saying
things, I did not say,
how does that actually
help your cause?
And so it makes me feel like
a lot of people in this fight
don't really care about the
issues they say they care about,
they care about clout.
So I just generally...
And I would say to
your audience also,
if you are engaging with people
and just trying to understand
that's totally great,
I think, you can
only do so much.
- Do you think the
liberals have enough juice,
have enough energy, have enough
of a sort of intellectual,
undergirding to stand
up to this woke thing?
I think this is sort
of the new split
that the sort of 30 or 40 of us,
that were loosely called
the intellectual dark web,
whatever it is now.
We were sort of warning
about all of this stuff
and I see a real split
occurring at this point
where there's some of us that
sort of think that liberalism
can somehow fight
the woke thing,
even though I personally
see no evidence of it.
And then there's
the ones that are,
I think more in line
with my thinking on this,
which is that there's
a lot of bridges
to be built to the right.
It doesn't mean that those
guys are perfect all the time.
And as you said, you still
identify as a liberal
as I do as well, but do
you think that liberalism
in and of itself can
withstand what seems
to be happening right now?
- I think so as more
people start speaking up
and I do see...
I'm actually surprised
because some of the people
who said to me
even two years ago,
I'm not gonna get
involved in this,
this is not gonna benefit me,
I don't have a
dog in this fight.
So let's just hope it
goes away on its own.
They are now saying
this is really bad,
I didn't think it was
gonna get this bad,
and I need to speaking
up about this.
How can I speak up about
this? What can I do?
So I do think the
tide is going to turn,
I just think it's
going to get much worse
before we get there.
And my concern is also with
all of the science denial
and all of the denial
of information,
how is that going to
affect our society
and our knowledge
and our growth,
because nothing good can
come from denying reality.
- Yeah. Well, we're in a
constant denial of reality
at this point.
You're in Toronto right
now, is there any difference
the way this is discussed maybe
from a Canadian perspective
than it is from an
American perspective
or has the internet
just sort of leveled
the playing field on that?
- I think the biggest thing,
like what I tell people,
I know is just to try
to stay off social media
as much as you can,
because that really
exacerbates everything.
It doesn't matter where
in the world you are,
I think social media is
really polarizing us.
In terms of differences between
Canadians and Americans,
I think we're just as bad
or we're getting there.
So don't worry,
you're not alone.
- Yeah, we export everything.
So that the title,
"The End of Gender,"
yeah I thought it
was kinda interesting
because it's like you're
dealing with and unpacking
all of these seriously complex
issues related to identity
and gender and everything else,
but you're calling
it the End of Gender.
Do you think that
what we're left with
at the end of this conversation,
if we can truly
have it honestly,
is that gender won't matter?
Won't exist?
What do you mean by the end?
- Yeah, let me clarify,
because when I announced this,
when I noticed the announced
the book on social media,
people got upset at me because
they thought I was saying
that this is like the
very super woke far left
end of gender and that
gender doesn't exist anymore,
or that gender is completely
what you want it to be,
and it's based in
self identification
and there was no tethering
to biology or objectivity,
and that's not at
all what I'm saying.
And I really wanna emphasize,
I'm actually saying-
- That's why I am asking you.
That's why I'm asking you.
- The complete opposite of that.
I'm saying gender is very
much biologically based
and it is the misinformation
and denial of science
and denial of biology,
and denial of
evolutionary psychology,
that is leading us to not have
a proper understanding
of gender,
and that's why I
see it's demise.
- Yeah, so paint the picture
that turns some of this around,
besides just some
people getting braver,
like the political
part of this even.
I mean, when you see at
this point, all of these,
the LGBT organizations
that at this point,
I think are just
basically using gay people
to now push the gender stuff.
I mean, what has
to happen to them?
Are there nonprofits
that are fighting this
from a correct
scientific perspective?
Like what has to
happen now really?
- What I see happening,
and I actually have a line
in the book where I say
I'm appalled and I
love the gay community
and I have many gay men
who've reached out to me
over the years, complete
strangers who say to me,
"Thank you for
saying what you did
because I was one
of these children."
I actually had one
individual reach out to me
and tell me around the time
my first op-ed came out,
he said, "I was thinking
of transitioning
and I read your op-ed
and I decided to wait.
And I'm so glad I did."
So there is a line in
the book where I say,
"I'm appalled that the number
of gay men who are in support
of transitioning children,
because this is leading to the
extermination of gay kids."
And what I really
think is gonna happen,
and this is so unfortunate,
it makes me so sad
is that these kids
are gonna be changing
their minds in a few years,
I say five to 10
years, so we're...
What is this?
This is gonna be August,
2020 when this comes out,
so give it five to 10 years,
there are gonna be so
many kids who are saying,
"Why did my parents
let me do this?
Why did medical professionals
let me do this?"
They are going to have issues
from being on hormonal
treatments, from surgery.
I'm already seeing all
of these young people,
these detransitioners and
it really breaks my heart.
And no one is listening to them
and no one is taking
them seriously.
And there are gonna be tons
of class action lawsuits.
And I already see good
clinicians in the field
who are concerned because
they know it's coming
and they feel out a loss
because we've been trying
to raise attention and get
people to take us seriously,
but they just call
us transphobic.
- Right, and by the way, it's
not just the personal issues
and the medical issues
and everything else,
there's gonna be an insane
amount of legal issues
that pop up there.
I think there's gonna be kids,
they'll be young
adults at the time
that are gonna start
suing their parents.
I think they're going to
start suing the doctors
and probably everybody
else involved.
I'm sure there were lawyers
looking at that right now.
There's got to be, right?
- And I would say to
your audience too,
because I'm sure they
have been following
these issues as well,
pay attention to the
people who are most loudly
and proudly embracing
this and saying,
this is great for the kids,
because when this time comes,
they're gonna turn
around and say,
"We had no idea this
was gonna happen."
And they're gonna pretend
that they had no idea
when they are coming
after those of us
who are speaking out about it.
- I know it's a little
weird to be ahead
of the curve, isn't it?
'Cause you kind of
feel like you're behind
it sometimes as the
things start to come true.
- I feel the odd thing when
I was writing this book,
I felt the whole time,
it was a very emotional
process for me
because it felt very much
like those of us who see it,
it's like we're able
to see the future
and we're just trying to
scream as loud as possible
to get people to pay attention.
- Don't I know it, I know it.
You just mentioned the
detransitioning part of this,
is there a lot of literature,
is there a lot of
research on that
as far as how many
people have done it,
are they happier after?
Are they suicidal after?
I mean, what do the
numbers look like on that?
- There was one study in
Sweden that looked at people
who had transitioned and then...
So change the marker on
their legal documentation
and then changed it back.
And they found that
about 2% of people
who had transitioned
changed back.
But the thing is not
everyone who detransitions,
does it illegally and
also the data collected
for that study it finished
around 2011, I think it was.
So that was before this huge
influx we see of young people,
especially young women
identifying as male,
and I've written quite a bit.
And in the book I talk about
rapid onset gender dysphoria,
which is this phenomenon of
young women who are very quickly
identifying as male, wanting
to transition to male,
taking testosterone, again,
getting double mastectomy.
When they were very gender
typical as children,
it's usually very
out of the blue,
usually they have other mental
health issues like autism,
for a lot of them, they
have sexual trauma,
that's not being talked about.
And so we don't yet
have the data for that,
we don't know what that's
going to look like.
Although there is
one County in the UK
where hundreds of
detransitioners are
coming out and saying,
I'm I have autism, I'm
lesbian and why didn't people,
why didn't professionals,
do what they should have done,
which is ask me questions?
- Yeah, I can't imagine
discussing anything
almost more
controversial than that.
You couple this sort of
rapid transition with autism,
and then you get people
to try to talk about that.
It's like, no, one's gonna...
You could see why the
average researcher
would just be like, no
way I'm not doing this.
- No, and it's difficult enough
to get a study published.
You have to get
funding for your...
I mean, in the book, I talk
about a number of situations
where researchers
have gotten approval
and they've gotten
money to do their study
and still they have to deal
with all these extra roadblocks
that pop up where people coming
after them and threatening them.
So at the end of the day,
the science is taking a
very unfortunate turn.
I think we're gonna
look back on this period
with a lot of horror
and disappointment,
but I'm hoping that the outcome
is not going to be that terrible
if we start speaking
out about it.
- Yeah, have they
done real research
on the social pressures
related to all of this?
So like when you
mentioned the rapid onset
where suddenly a whole bunch
of girls that otherwise,
like, it sort of appears
out of nowhere in essence,
that could it be
from a peer group
and then they're really
doing these things
that are just really
just crazily extreme
to fit in, in essence?
- Yeah, so the one
study that's been done
on rapid onset gender
dysphoria to date
was published in
2018 by Lisa Littman.
And she did...
The research did
suggest that there's
a peer contagion aspect to
it and that these girls,
so for 40% of the girls in
the study who had come out
as trans very quickly,
they had at least
half of their friend group
also identify as transgender,
which is 70 times the
rate of what you would see
in the general population
in terms of people
who identify as transgender.
So that in itself
should raise a red flag
in most people's minds.
But people are saying,
this is due to greater
social acceptance.
But if that's the case,
why is it you don't see
the same thing among boys?
You don't see the same thing
among people different ages?
It's very specific
to teenage girls
and young adults, young women.
- Yeah, so what do
you make of that?
Because young boys,
young boys can be
susceptible to peer pressure
and all that kind of stuff too.
So what is that about then?
- I think for these young
women in particular,
from the conversations
I've had with them,
it's very much about
being discomfort,
feeling discomfort
with their body,
for a lot of them
going through puberty
and suddenly getting
male attention
and not really appreciating
attention from certain people.
And also the messages
that they're getting
from the media is that if
you are gender nonconforming
at all as a woman, then you
are probably transgender
or you are probably
another gender.
And if you look at celebrities,
a lot of celebrities
who are born female,
who are gender atypical,
identify as a third gender.
So I think no one
is saying to them,
it's okay if you
are a young woman
and you are different or you
feel like you don't fit in,
it's okay, that's normal.
Another thing is a lot of
young women are being told
if they don't like
getting a period,
that that means that, that
they shouldn't be a man.
And I'm thinking no woman
likes getting her period.
That's just part
of being a woman,
and it's a me, I
love being a woman.
I take a lot of pride
in being a woman.
So I just wish that we
could have this conversation
or there was more
of this happening,
'cause they're not
receiving this information,
they're only
receiving one message.
- Yeah, so I'm gonna
sort of give you a theory
that I've been trying
to put together
through some of my
own interactions.
So this is not
scientific in any way,
but I think there's
probably something to it
that what I find on Twitter
is that the angriest
and most hostile and an
awful saying the worst things
possible to me,
whenever that happens
from one of these
anonymous accounts,
I go to the account and
almost without exception,
they have their gender profile,
their pronouns in there,
he him, she, her,
Z the whole thing.
And I do think there's a
sort of connection between...
I wanna be very clean
about what I'm saying here,
that there's sort
of a connection
between knowing who you are
and knowing reality as it is,
and then being happy or
functional or something.
Can you clean this
one up for me?
'Cause I haven't fully
pieced it together,
but I do think it's quite
bizarre that the people
who are constantly
preaching about tolerance
and diversity and everything
else are in many cases,
the ones that act completely
the reverse of that.
- I think part of that could be
because gender is
so trendy nowadays,
and it's because people
are given attention
and praise for identifying
in a way that is different
from male and female, I
think for some people,
and this is not to say that
everyone who identifies
as something other
than male or female
or anyone who doesn't
identify as their birth sex
has mental psychopathology.
But I do think for some people
who have preexisting
psychopathology,
they're latching on to
gender and this movement
as a way to bring about
meaning in their life
or as a way of feeling
good about themselves.
And so anyone who questions
that, they take that very,
very personally and very deeply,
and I think that's part
of why they lash out
in such a horrible way.
- Yeah, what do you make
of the intersectional piece
of this whole thing,
that even related to
everything going on right now,
with the protests and the
riots and Black Lives matter.
We had the initial Black
Lives Matter movement,
and then about 10 days in,
there was this massive rally
I think it was in Brooklyn,
for Black Trans Lives,
and I never heard anyone
that had a problem
with black trans people.
I mean, these things
have all become something
that's not quite what they are.
Can you explain sort of the
intersectional piece of this,
how they all kind
of linked together?
- I'm not a fan of
intersectionality,
as you probably know.
So I just see it
as a way for people
to further promote their
own personal agenda.
I have nothing against wanting
to protest for trans lives
or black trans lives or
anyone's life for black lives,
I'm all for it.
But it's when you start
being authoritarian
and starting to shut
down scientists, right?
They had a day where this was
not about black trans lives,
but they shut down
STEM for a day,
in the name of fighting racism,
which makes absolutely
no sense to me.
So I think like
identity politics,
it's just about creating
increasingly smaller factions
to further divide us and
for particular people
to get their chance
at having some power.
- Are you worried that
because we're injecting race
into every conversation,
we're injecting gender
into every conversation
and sexuality and all of
these things into everything.
And now it's in sports and
messages are just everywhere,
every TV show that you watch,
that we're gonna sort of
raise a generation of bigots,
not because they're
actually bigoted,
but they'll just be sick
of all of these issues,
and then they're going to view
the world through that lens
where everything is about
your race and your gender
and your sexuality
and everything else.
- Yeah, that definitely
concerns me because for me,
and maybe I have an old
school view of things,
but to me to assume that
the way someone looks
or that their race says anything
about the kind of person
they are or the way they
think, or their capabilities,
that to me is racist.
But I find that in woke land,
it's racist to assume
that someone's race,
doesn't play in those things.
And I'll never forget,
I remember very early on
when I started writing,
I went to this events and I
spoke with one of the organizers
and she said to me...
She looked at my
eyes and she said,
"I think it's great
that you write,
We need more women, who
look like you, writing."
And I thought to me,
that sounds a bit racist.
But then I realized after that,
what she thought this
was a good thing,
like that she was praising
me because she was saying,
I guess there aren't many Asian
women who are journalists,
but I don't want to be
considered good journalist
because I'm Asian or
because I'm a woman,
I want it to be because
my work is good.
And I think that's what
it shouldn't be about.
Your value as a human
being should be about
who you are as a person,
not ticking off certain boxes.
So it does disturb
me quite a bit
because I feel, especially
for white people,
they feel like they
can't speak up about it
because they're gonna
get called racist.
- Yeah. But Debra,
you know that Asians
are the new white people, right?
I mean, we now know,
I mean, we know this, right?
Like by the woke ideology,
Asian people are
now in effect white
because Asian people,
regardless of the ethnicity
or nationality in most
cases have succeeded.
So now we just gotta throw
them in with the white people.
- When I saw that pamphlet
that was circulating
a couple weeks ago and
it was something like
"Hard work is whiteness."
I just thought, okay, I
guess we are white then.
- Yeah.
Well, you're right.
You're talking about the
thing that was put out
by the a was it at the
black museum in DC?
The African American
Museum in DC,
I think they put up so much.
- I'm not sure,
there's been so much.
- Yeah, there's so many
of them, but in effect,
if you believe in the individual
and you believe in hard work
and you believe in
family that these
are all tools of
white supremacy,
I thought anyone could work hard
or care about the nuclear
family or anything else.
What else should we, what
else should we hit on here?
How about that for
an open question?
What are the other things
that you were hitting on
in the book that you
think the average person
needs to know about?
- Well, what I can do is
I can maybe just summarize
what the different myths are,
because that will
give your audience
a sense of what we cover.
So I took a science based
approach to debunking some
of the most prominent
myths in our society.
So there are nine of them.
So I talk about how
biological sex and gender
are both not social constructs,
they are not spectrums.
I talk about how
sexual orientation
is related to gender identity,
even though many activists
and many even educational
organizations say
they're unrelated.
That's not true,
they are related.
I talk about gender
transitioning in children,
I talk about the issue of
trans women and women's spaces
and sports and prisons.
And then I talk about
sex differences.
- Let's stop on that.
Let's stop on that
one for a second,
because I'm amazed by this,
I mean, this thing where we're
watching males transitioned
to female and then
play in women's sports
and break every record in
weightlifting and racing
and all of these other things.
And it's like, man, one
day, there's gonna be
a washed up NBA player who is
going to transition to female
and be the MVP and the WMBA.
And then what are the
feminists gonna say?
But I believe that will happen
in the next couple of years.
What will the feminists
say at this point?
- I think it depends on
what kind of feminist.
So a liberal feminists
will probably say,
what's the problem.
I don't think most athletes
who are identifying as female
or coming out as female
are necessarily doing it
to get an advantage,
but it's not to say that
it's never gonna happen.
But whereas radical feminists
who are critical of gender
and are critical of
this whole thing,
they've been the most
outspoken about this.
And I would still...
I mean I identified
as a feminist up until
a couple of years ago, I
still want gender equality
for many women,
I think we do for the
most part have that.
But feminism, I've been
critical of feminism
just because I think it has
lost sight of its main goals.
And so radical feminists
have joined hands
with conservatives,
which would have been
completely unprecedented to say,
this is not fair.
And to consider again,
I think I have no
issue referring to a
trans woman as she,
you know, referring to her,
using the pronoun she like,
and give her respect
and legal protections,
but in something like sports
or say mixed martial arts,
which is one of my
favorite sports,
you cannot pretend that
there are no differences
at all between trans women,
even after transitioning and
women who are born women,
because someone can
get very badly hurt
or even killed in a fight.
- Is the irony then that I
guess the radical feminist,
would they argue that there
should just be no women's sports
at that point?
If gender is just
a social construct,
I mean, wouldn't, they just say,
okay, well then there shouldn't
be any women's sports,
but then unfortunately,
what they would end up with
is that there would
be no women in sports,
or very few women in sports.
Wouldn't that be
the end outcome?
- My sense...
So again, I'm not
a radical feminist,
so I don't want to
speak for the community,
but my sense would be because
they don't deny biological sex
being real, so they
would say women deserve
to have equal opportunities
and trans women are...
They don't consider
trans women to be women
because they were born male
and they've been in their eyes
socialized as men.
So there's no way that they
can understand what it's like
to be a woman.
But from my understanding,
radical feminists are in
favor of sex segregation
in terms of sports,
because that's the
only way that women
have a fair choice chance.
It's not that women
are less capable,
it's just, that's the reality
with biology and reality.
- Yeah, and reality.
Well, speaking of reality, did
you see the video Joe Biden
was at the LGBT equality
forum and he said that
it's not what prison,
it's not what gender
your birth certificate says,
that should decide
what prison you go to,
it's what gender
you identify as,
meaning that you could just
say, "Okay, I'm a woman."
You could be a male murderer,
say, "I identify as woman."
And then they'll put
you in a female prison.
I mean, stuff like that
must make your head explode.
- Well, I did see that
and I remember thinking,
I wish that they had
someone who worked
with forensic populations
to speak to this,
because that's definitely
not a good idea.
And I have worked with
sex offenders in the past,
both in a research
and clinical capacity.
And we used to have a saying,
how do you know a
sex offender's lying?
His lips are moving.
So I think as with
anything in these issues,
they have to be on a
case-by-case basis.
But, I detailed in the
book a little bit more
about what I specifically
think should be done
and how we should
approach these issues.
But it's just...
It's really become
a question of,
are you on the left or right,
and you and people basically
state what they think
their side wants them
to say on these issues.
- Yeah, are there any other
myths we should hit on?
- In the book, so
the last few words,
sex differences
in sex and dating,
because there's so
much misinformation,
young people are totally
confused and have no idea
how to go about dating nowadays,
so I offer some advice.
I talk about gender
neutral parenting
and then also social
justice and in academia.
And I have to say, so
I announced this book
as of today, what we're taping.
I announced it only
a couple of days ago,
One very prominent columnists
in Canada, Barbara Kay,
she wrote a review about my
book and the publication.
So she'd been at the
national post for 20 years,
they refuse to run her review
because it was a
positive review,
and so she
subsequently resigned.
And this is after a number of...
I think this was the straw
that broke the camel's back,
but I'm just amazed at...
Already there's a lot
of pushback to this book
and it's just science.
Why is that seen as threatening?
And this is something
I just cannot grasp.
I understand why people
see it as threatening,
but we need to talk about why,
and at the end of the day,
scientists need to be
able to do their job.
- Yeah. Barbara Kay
she's one of the...
I know, you know this,
but I mean, she's one of the
great journalists of Canada.
I actually saw the tweet
about her resignation,
I had, no...
I didn't click it.
You know, I was doing a
couple of other things,
I had no idea it had
to do with your book.
That that is an believable,
absolute, well, unbelievable.
Everything's unbelievable now,
so I guess it's
totally believable.
- She did a long
Facebook post explaining
why she was leaving and
then the other half of it
was the review of my book.
And then so both of
those pieces were run
by the post-millennials.
So if your audience wants to
look into that a bit more,
they can check that out.
- Yeah, absolutely.
Well, Debra, good
luck with the book.
We're gonna put the link
to "The End of Gender"
right down below.
And I hope we can do this
in person at some point
or I'll come to Toronto
or you'll come here,
we'll figure something out.
Well, good luck with the book.
- It's awesome
to se you Dave.
- Yeah, it's great
to see you too.
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